He who rides a tiger is afraid to dismount
July 23, 2013 10:54 AM Subscribe
Milwaukee Brewer Ryan Braun has been suspended for the rest of the season due to his involvement with a former "anti-aging" clinic called Biogenesis that allegedly supplied athletes with human growth hormone, anabolic steroids, testosterone, and other performance-enhancing drugs (Taiwanese animation video). Alex Rodriguez is expected to be suspended next, along with 15-20 other Major League Baseball players, with punishments expected to linger into the 2014 season.
Braun already had one suspension repealed due to the testing official taking the test home for the weekend. He strongly denied the results of that test, and the end result was that the doubts his lawyers brought up led to the tester getting fired.
posted by thecjm at 11:01 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by thecjm at 11:01 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Glad to hear it. Keep the suspensions coming, and get the game cleaned up. As a former player, (no where near the show) I would be pleased to see these these thieves stop taking a livelihood from honest men.
posted by scottymac at 11:01 AM on July 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by scottymac at 11:01 AM on July 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
A note about Braun's previous suspension, which was repealed because the sample wasn't mailed in right away (from sample collector Dino Laurenzi Jr's statement):
I completed my collections at Miller Park at approximately 5:00 p.m. Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office.
posted by troika at 11:13 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I completed my collections at Miller Park at approximately 5:00 p.m. Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office.
posted by troika at 11:13 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Schadenfreude is so sweet. No after-taste, either.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 11:16 AM on July 23, 2013
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 11:16 AM on July 23, 2013
"Braun already had one suspension repealed due to the testing official taking the test home for the weekend. He strongly denied the results of that test, and the end result was that the doubts his lawyers brought up led to the tester getting fired."
I hope Laurenzi sues the shit out of Braun now. Dude lied to save his own ass and got Laurenzi fired.
posted by klangklangston at 11:17 AM on July 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
I hope Laurenzi sues the shit out of Braun now. Dude lied to save his own ass and got Laurenzi fired.
posted by klangklangston at 11:17 AM on July 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
And the only PEDs that Peralta is likely to have taken are ones that increase the size of a player's forehead.
posted by klangklangston at 11:17 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by klangklangston at 11:17 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not that I'm condoning Braun's shameful targeting of the tester, but could someone cite a link about Laurenzi getting fired? I don't think that actually happened.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:21 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:21 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Braun getting off on a technicality the first time was bad enough. Braun going scorched earth over that technicality was just plain stupid. The suspension couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Too bad he'll be back in 2014 though.
posted by Fezboy! at 11:26 AM on July 23, 2013
posted by Fezboy! at 11:26 AM on July 23, 2013
Nobody's said it yet, so I will: this is an incredibly weak punishment for what occurred. It amounts to a plea deal, in that they got Braun to admit guilt, but he's getting off looking shiny.
The Brewers have him in a contract until 2020, and it's a contract that pays out more each year. By accepting the remainder of the season without pay, Braun forfeits $3.9 million but will be collecting a crapton more in the coming years, and the Brewers aren't a contending team this year, so it's not like people were coming to Miller Park in droves this year anyway.
I expect, given his previously callous behavior, that he'll be able to withstand the "Braun's a Juicer" signs at every away game he plays in next season and beyond.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:28 AM on July 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
The Brewers have him in a contract until 2020, and it's a contract that pays out more each year. By accepting the remainder of the season without pay, Braun forfeits $3.9 million but will be collecting a crapton more in the coming years, and the Brewers aren't a contending team this year, so it's not like people were coming to Miller Park in droves this year anyway.
I expect, given his previously callous behavior, that he'll be able to withstand the "Braun's a Juicer" signs at every away game he plays in next season and beyond.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:28 AM on July 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
I would be pleased to see these these thieves stop taking a livelihood from honest men.
I haven't really thought about it much, but are you saying that if these guy didn't take steroids they wouldn't even be MLB material and someone else would be in their place? I'd always assumed steroids would you an edge but that you'd have to be pretty gifted to begin with to get where big-name guys like this are.
posted by Hoopo at 11:37 AM on July 23, 2013
I haven't really thought about it much, but are you saying that if these guy didn't take steroids they wouldn't even be MLB material and someone else would be in their place? I'd always assumed steroids would you an edge but that you'd have to be pretty gifted to begin with to get where big-name guys like this are.
posted by Hoopo at 11:37 AM on July 23, 2013
For those of you unfamiliar with PEDs, hgh can cause forehead and skull growth.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:38 AM on July 23, 2013
posted by cmfletcher at 11:38 AM on July 23, 2013
The Brewers have him in a contract until 2020, and it's a contract that pays out more each year
Not going be able to be on the juice now for 2014 onwards so I expect his performance will suffer. The Brewers may have just bought a pig in a poke. If I where them I'd start looking at the contract hoping there is get-out-of-jail-free clause for folks suspended for this sort of stuff. I imagine they offered the contracted based on past performance, and if that performance was because of banned substance then it seems like they should have an contractual out.
But yeah, stiffer sanctions for sure. Perhaps they should start penalizing the teams if members are caught cheating.. heh heh heh.
posted by edgeways at 11:39 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not going be able to be on the juice now for 2014 onwards so I expect his performance will suffer. The Brewers may have just bought a pig in a poke. If I where them I'd start looking at the contract hoping there is get-out-of-jail-free clause for folks suspended for this sort of stuff. I imagine they offered the contracted based on past performance, and if that performance was because of banned substance then it seems like they should have an contractual out.
But yeah, stiffer sanctions for sure. Perhaps they should start penalizing the teams if members are caught cheating.. heh heh heh.
posted by edgeways at 11:39 AM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I haven't really thought about it much, but are you saying that if these guy didn't take steroids they wouldn't even be MLB material and someone else would be in their place? I'd always assumed steroids would you an edge but that you'd have to be pretty gifted to begin with to get where big-name guys like this are.
posted by Hoopo at 8:37 AM on July 23 [+] [!]
Not so much the big name guys like this, but in the minor leagues, and for those on the cusp of staying up or not, it is a significant problem.
posted by scottymac at 11:43 AM on July 23, 2013
posted by Hoopo at 8:37 AM on July 23 [+] [!]
Not so much the big name guys like this, but in the minor leagues, and for those on the cusp of staying up or not, it is a significant problem.
posted by scottymac at 11:43 AM on July 23, 2013
And I think it was the arbitrator, Shyam Das, who was fired. Selig was totes pissed over losing Braun the first time.
posted by Fezboy! at 11:47 AM on July 23, 2013
posted by Fezboy! at 11:47 AM on July 23, 2013
It's a shame baseball doesn't punish steroid users more harshly, but at least there's this: Baseball Hall of Fame: Steroid users not welcome here
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 11:48 AM on July 23, 2013
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 11:48 AM on July 23, 2013
While marginal guys are more likely to need steroids to hang on, tell that to Barry Bonds.
From one of my favorite sources of what baseball is really like:
ESPN: Were you shocked and surprised at the revelation that lots of ballplayers are taking steroids?
Jim Bouton: No, not at all. How could I be surprised? In the 1970s, half of the guys in the big leagues were taking greenies, and if we had steroids, we would have taken those, too. I said in "Ball Four," if there was a pill that could guarantee you would win 20 games but would take five years off of your life, players would take it. The only thing I didn't know at the time was the name.
posted by delfin at 11:49 AM on July 23, 2013
From one of my favorite sources of what baseball is really like:
ESPN: Were you shocked and surprised at the revelation that lots of ballplayers are taking steroids?
Jim Bouton: No, not at all. How could I be surprised? In the 1970s, half of the guys in the big leagues were taking greenies, and if we had steroids, we would have taken those, too. I said in "Ball Four," if there was a pill that could guarantee you would win 20 games but would take five years off of your life, players would take it. The only thing I didn't know at the time was the name.
posted by delfin at 11:49 AM on July 23, 2013
The MLB Players Union successfully negotiated in their last collective bargaining agreement that no player could have their contract voided over PED use.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:55 AM on July 23, 2013
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:55 AM on July 23, 2013
Follow up on that last comment: The Yankees won't be able to void A-Rod's contract if he's guilty of PED use (again).
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2013
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2013
I expect... that he'll be able to withstand the "Braun's a Juicer" signs....
When I used to read the picture book "Mark McGuire, Home Run Hero" to my little boys, I would retitle it "Mark McGuire, Juice Junkie" and explain how cheating ruins it for everyone. In a rare flash of my kids listening to me, they also slag off McGuire now. So...yay!
A photo in he book of Canseco and McGuire was comical because neither of them were all 'roided up yet, especially the pre-Bibendum McGuire.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:19 PM on July 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
When I used to read the picture book "Mark McGuire, Home Run Hero" to my little boys, I would retitle it "Mark McGuire, Juice Junkie" and explain how cheating ruins it for everyone. In a rare flash of my kids listening to me, they also slag off McGuire now. So...yay!
A photo in he book of Canseco and McGuire was comical because neither of them were all 'roided up yet, especially the pre-Bibendum McGuire.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:19 PM on July 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
Ah... sports. Run by greedy assholes and played by entitled junkies.
One can't help but think baseball really is America's past-time.
posted by edgeways at 12:21 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
One can't help but think baseball really is America's past-time.
posted by edgeways at 12:21 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
no player could have their contract voided over PED use
This blows my mind! But I don't know much about contract negotiation. Is it the same in the other major sports?
posted by troika at 12:24 PM on July 23, 2013
This blows my mind! But I don't know much about contract negotiation. Is it the same in the other major sports?
posted by troika at 12:24 PM on July 23, 2013
This is good! Next, I want to see a REAL example made in baseball the same way that Cycling penalized Lance Armstrong. I want to see Barry Bonds' and all associated high-profile "users" in baseball completely stripped of every record made while they were on performance enhancing drugs. No asterisks! Just a complete elimination of their so-called phony "records". No placement of those so-called "Records" anywhere, in any official capacity.
There is no doubt that athletes like Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds are world class athletes who - had they not chosen to use performance enhancing drugs - would have deserved almost immediate entry into their respective Halls of Fame. Eliminate Barry Bonds' HR records, and/or reduce all of his stats (including the stats of people like Roger Clemens and other "users") by 25% - for every year they were even suspected of using performance enhancing drugs. Or, wipe out ALL their stats for those years; that's more appropriate. What's good for Lance Armstrong is good for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.
As far as this baseball fan is concerned, Henry Aaron still owns the lifetime home run record, and Roger Maris still owns the single season home run record.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:51 PM on July 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
There is no doubt that athletes like Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds are world class athletes who - had they not chosen to use performance enhancing drugs - would have deserved almost immediate entry into their respective Halls of Fame. Eliminate Barry Bonds' HR records, and/or reduce all of his stats (including the stats of people like Roger Clemens and other "users") by 25% - for every year they were even suspected of using performance enhancing drugs. Or, wipe out ALL their stats for those years; that's more appropriate. What's good for Lance Armstrong is good for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens.
As far as this baseball fan is concerned, Henry Aaron still owns the lifetime home run record, and Roger Maris still owns the single season home run record.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:51 PM on July 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
Personally I don't care about PEDs in baseball. Newsflash:
As Bouton said, the majority of players have been on amphetamines since the 50's. There used to literally be candy bowls full of the stuff in MLB locker rooms. They are now banned. Roger Maris and Hank Aaron, and many many others took them. Those drugs are now just as banned as steroids and HGH.
So, no offence, but acting like Bonds' records don't count when he never tested positive for anything and never broke any of baseballs rules feels like willful ignorance. He and Clemens should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame. If we're applying the same standard (allegedly taking a drug that is currently banned but wasn't at the time), you need to kick out Aaron, Mays, Brooks Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Reggie Jackson...should I go on?
However, as this article compellingly argues, Braun handled himself in the worst way possible here and has alienated fans and players alike (word out of the Brewers clubhouse is the players are near universally happy he got suspended because he lied to their faces).
posted by dry white toast at 1:02 PM on July 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
As Bouton said, the majority of players have been on amphetamines since the 50's. There used to literally be candy bowls full of the stuff in MLB locker rooms. They are now banned. Roger Maris and Hank Aaron, and many many others took them. Those drugs are now just as banned as steroids and HGH.
So, no offence, but acting like Bonds' records don't count when he never tested positive for anything and never broke any of baseballs rules feels like willful ignorance. He and Clemens should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame. If we're applying the same standard (allegedly taking a drug that is currently banned but wasn't at the time), you need to kick out Aaron, Mays, Brooks Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Reggie Jackson...should I go on?
However, as this article compellingly argues, Braun handled himself in the worst way possible here and has alienated fans and players alike (word out of the Brewers clubhouse is the players are near universally happy he got suspended because he lied to their faces).
posted by dry white toast at 1:02 PM on July 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
Not so much the big name guys like this, but in the minor leagues, and for those on the cusp of staying up or not, it is a significant problem.
Minor leaguers don't have the same MLBPA protections as those on the big league club and are subject to much stricter and more thorough testing than their MLB counterparts. The MLBPA is one of the, if not the, strongest sports union in the world. There's a reason "Used Cars" Selig turned a blind eye to the McGwire-Bonds-Sosa-ARod-Manny-Big Papi juicing era: he couldn't do dick but get his ass handed to him if he tried.
Having said all of that, I do find that Braun caving after meeting with them and hearing the little bit of credible evidence they had on him to be really funny. They must have some really serious shit on ARod, Melky Cabrera, and Nelson Cruz. It's really too bad that the cheating players are the only ones that are going to get raked over the coals on this - I'd love to see the BBWAA get skewered as well.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 1:19 PM on July 23, 2013
Minor leaguers don't have the same MLBPA protections as those on the big league club and are subject to much stricter and more thorough testing than their MLB counterparts. The MLBPA is one of the, if not the, strongest sports union in the world. There's a reason "Used Cars" Selig turned a blind eye to the McGwire-Bonds-Sosa-ARod-Manny-Big Papi juicing era: he couldn't do dick but get his ass handed to him if he tried.
Having said all of that, I do find that Braun caving after meeting with them and hearing the little bit of credible evidence they had on him to be really funny. They must have some really serious shit on ARod, Melky Cabrera, and Nelson Cruz. It's really too bad that the cheating players are the only ones that are going to get raked over the coals on this - I'd love to see the BBWAA get skewered as well.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 1:19 PM on July 23, 2013
I'm really tired of the "what about amphetamines" argument as an excuse for PEDs being okay.
I care about PEDs because they are demonstrably bad for you, because kids take them because they're willing to take that risk to get ahead in sports, because clean athletes have no chance in a cheaters-allowed world.
Hall of Fame and records can burn for all I care. If everybody has always been cheating that doesn't make it okay and it doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to getting rid of it in the game.
posted by mcstayinskool at 1:22 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I care about PEDs because they are demonstrably bad for you, because kids take them because they're willing to take that risk to get ahead in sports, because clean athletes have no chance in a cheaters-allowed world.
Hall of Fame and records can burn for all I care. If everybody has always been cheating that doesn't make it okay and it doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to getting rid of it in the game.
posted by mcstayinskool at 1:22 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Nobody's said it yet, so I will: this is an incredibly weak punishment for what occurred.
How so? The CBA states 50 games is the punishment for a first offense. One can argue whether morally this constitutes a first offense, but the CBA was agreed upon by both sides. I don't know why Metafilter loses its collective love of collective bargaining when the laborers in question are millionaires.
posted by yerfatma at 1:28 PM on July 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
How so? The CBA states 50 games is the punishment for a first offense. One can argue whether morally this constitutes a first offense, but the CBA was agreed upon by both sides. I don't know why Metafilter loses its collective love of collective bargaining when the laborers in question are millionaires.
posted by yerfatma at 1:28 PM on July 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
I'm really tired of the "what about amphetamines" argument as an excuse for PEDs being okay . . . I care about PEDs because they are demonstrably bad for you
The Faces of Meth.
posted by yerfatma at 1:29 PM on July 23, 2013
The Faces of Meth.
posted by yerfatma at 1:29 PM on July 23, 2013
PEDs in professional sports are something you probably should care about. The pro's are doing it to get a leg up on the competition and a bigger paycheck or prolonged career. So what, they know the deal they're making with their body and they reap what they sew, right?
Now the kid who has aspirations of a pro career or just wants a leg up on the scholarship race will follow suit. Especially if it's understood the only way to make it to the big show is to use PEDs. You can't get a spot on the team if everyone else has an advantage so you better get to juicing.
PEDs have a very real detrimental effect on the body. Increased stroke risk and undue stress on the heart are just a few of the laundry list of problems a PED user can expect. It's very likely that when Lance used testosterone patches it contributed to the cause of his testicular cancer in the first place.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:30 PM on July 23, 2013
Now the kid who has aspirations of a pro career or just wants a leg up on the scholarship race will follow suit. Especially if it's understood the only way to make it to the big show is to use PEDs. You can't get a spot on the team if everyone else has an advantage so you better get to juicing.
PEDs have a very real detrimental effect on the body. Increased stroke risk and undue stress on the heart are just a few of the laundry list of problems a PED user can expect. It's very likely that when Lance used testosterone patches it contributed to the cause of his testicular cancer in the first place.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:30 PM on July 23, 2013
Just look at what roids did to poor ol' Sammy "No Comprende" Sosa.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 1:32 PM on July 23, 2013
posted by playertobenamedlater at 1:32 PM on July 23, 2013
Braun certainly comes off like a huge tool through this, but the MLBPA still shouldn't have let Selig suspend him by fiat using a penalty that's not even specified in the CBA. Turning the MLB suspension process into an NFL-style, you-seem-like-a-bad-person-so-get-out affair shouldn't be a goal and it would be nice, as a bonus, to have them actually bother to respond to reporters who ask questions about basic specifics of the suspension.
posted by Copronymus at 1:33 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Copronymus at 1:33 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
So, no offence, but acting like Bonds' records don't count when he never tested positive for anything and never broke any of baseballs rules feels like willful ignorance.
What happened to Bonds' annual output when the steroid abuse scandal rose to the top, and many players - including Bonds - stopped using. His HR stats dropped off the cliff.
Amphetamines? There is no comparing the latter to PEDs. Just think of how people like McGuire and Bonds and Clemens have been modeled by High School players, and college players, who themselves have used.
Also, there is no comparing the restorative and strength gains made from PEDs, to amphetamines.
Bonds juiced; Clemens juiced; Armstrong juiced; etc. etc. - they received unfair advantage over their peers. Their records should not stand, and/or be included in any official reckoning of greatness.
It's a disgrace that Bonds' should be placed alongside Ruth and Aaron and Mays in several categories. Without PEDs he would have gotten close - maybe within 50-100 homers - but that's about all.
posted by Vibrissae at 1:36 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
What happened to Bonds' annual output when the steroid abuse scandal rose to the top, and many players - including Bonds - stopped using. His HR stats dropped off the cliff.
Amphetamines? There is no comparing the latter to PEDs. Just think of how people like McGuire and Bonds and Clemens have been modeled by High School players, and college players, who themselves have used.
Also, there is no comparing the restorative and strength gains made from PEDs, to amphetamines.
Bonds juiced; Clemens juiced; Armstrong juiced; etc. etc. - they received unfair advantage over their peers. Their records should not stand, and/or be included in any official reckoning of greatness.
It's a disgrace that Bonds' should be placed alongside Ruth and Aaron and Mays in several categories. Without PEDs he would have gotten close - maybe within 50-100 homers - but that's about all.
posted by Vibrissae at 1:36 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
What happened to Bonds' annual output when the steroid abuse scandal rose to the top, and many players - including Bonds - stopped using. His HR stats dropped off the cliff.
He also turned 40 when that happened. Bonds could have decided to quit baseball and follow Phish in 1997 and still been a Hall of Famer.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 1:40 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
He also turned 40 when that happened. Bonds could have decided to quit baseball and follow Phish in 1997 and still been a Hall of Famer.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 1:40 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
All sports are run like pro wrestling. At least wrestling doesn't pretend any more.
As for individuals in baseball.. It is the 1989 era Oakland A's that should feel the most hate. McGwire and Canseco were cartoons.
posted by Chuckles at 1:44 PM on July 23, 2013
As for individuals in baseball.. It is the 1989 era Oakland A's that should feel the most hate. McGwire and Canseco were cartoons.
posted by Chuckles at 1:44 PM on July 23, 2013
What happened to Bonds' annual output when the steroid abuse scandal rose to the top, and many players - including Bonds - stopped using. His HR stats dropped off the cliff.
Really? Obivously the 73 is a huge outlier, but he was still hitting 40+ home runs for 2 years after the BALCO investigation, then he hurt his knee and still hit the most homers ever hit by anyone after turning 40.
posted by Copronymus at 1:44 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Really? Obivously the 73 is a huge outlier, but he was still hitting 40+ home runs for 2 years after the BALCO investigation, then he hurt his knee and still hit the most homers ever hit by anyone after turning 40.
posted by Copronymus at 1:44 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
He also turned 40 when that happened. Bonds could have decided to quit baseball and follow Phish in 1997 and still been a Hall of Famer.
playertobenamediater: He also turned 40 when that happened. Bonds could have decided to quit baseball and follow Phish in 1997 and still been a Hall of Famer.
No doubt that Bonds is Hall of Fame quality; he's one of the greatest. Does he deserve to hold baseballs most sacred record? No. He cheated, and he cheated in a way and to a degree that past baseball players were not able to; he cheated in a way gave him inordinate advantage over other great baseball players (his contemporary peers) who did not use PEDs
posted by Vibrissae at 1:44 PM on July 23, 2013
playertobenamediater: He also turned 40 when that happened. Bonds could have decided to quit baseball and follow Phish in 1997 and still been a Hall of Famer.
No doubt that Bonds is Hall of Fame quality; he's one of the greatest. Does he deserve to hold baseballs most sacred record? No. He cheated, and he cheated in a way and to a degree that past baseball players were not able to; he cheated in a way gave him inordinate advantage over other great baseball players (his contemporary peers) who did not use PEDs
posted by Vibrissae at 1:44 PM on July 23, 2013
It's a shame baseball doesn't punish steroid users more harshly
You mean, kind of like how Mark McGwire is allowed to coach players
no comment
posted by phaedon at 1:55 PM on July 23, 2013
You mean, kind of like how Mark McGwire is allowed to coach players
no comment
posted by phaedon at 1:55 PM on July 23, 2013
"This is good! Next, I want to see a REAL example made in baseball the same way that Cycling penalized Lance Armstrong. I want to see Barry Bonds' and all associated high-profile "users" in baseball completely stripped of every record made while they were on performance enhancing drugs. No asterisks! Just a complete elimination of their so-called phony "records". No placement of those so-called "Records" anywhere, in any official capacity."
No, Bonds was the best hitter of his generation and would have been even without the PEDs. Getting moral about that later is just weird revisionism and letting some emotional dread of PEDs overwhelm any actual sense.
"Does he deserve to hold baseballs most sacred record? No. He cheated, and he cheated in a way and to a degree that past baseball players were not able to; he cheated in a way gave him inordinate advantage over other great baseball players (his contemporary peers) who did not use PEDs"
Except that his inordinate advantage actually came from being Bonds, not from the PEDs. They added, like, 2 HRs a year to his stats.
posted by klangklangston at 2:01 PM on July 23, 2013
No, Bonds was the best hitter of his generation and would have been even without the PEDs. Getting moral about that later is just weird revisionism and letting some emotional dread of PEDs overwhelm any actual sense.
"Does he deserve to hold baseballs most sacred record? No. He cheated, and he cheated in a way and to a degree that past baseball players were not able to; he cheated in a way gave him inordinate advantage over other great baseball players (his contemporary peers) who did not use PEDs"
Except that his inordinate advantage actually came from being Bonds, not from the PEDs. They added, like, 2 HRs a year to his stats.
posted by klangklangston at 2:01 PM on July 23, 2013
Really? Obivously the 73 is a huge outlier, but he was still hitting 40+ home runs for 2 years after the BALCO investigation, then he hurt his knee and still hit the most homers ever hit by anyone after turning 40.
And would have had a lot more if he weren't walked (232 !!) so many times.
posted by starman at 2:01 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
And would have had a lot more if he weren't walked (232 !!) so many times.
posted by starman at 2:01 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
The testing regime (if Wikipedia is anything to go by) is trivially easy to circumvent. 2 urine tests, one at the start of the season and one during? Other sports (principally cycling and athletics) moved past that level of testing decades ago.
My belief is that far, far more top-league team sport players are doping. The ones that are getting caught are the tip of the iceberg. The reality is that there's simply too much money in sports for doping not to be pervasive.
Remember that the difference between a banned substance and an allowed supplement is fairly arbitrary anyway. Even the players that aren't engaging in banned doping are still causing lasting damage to their health. Simply competing on that level requires pushing your body significantly past the "regular exercise" you'd want to do for longevity.
posted by leo_r at 2:02 PM on July 23, 2013
My belief is that far, far more top-league team sport players are doping. The ones that are getting caught are the tip of the iceberg. The reality is that there's simply too much money in sports for doping not to be pervasive.
Remember that the difference between a banned substance and an allowed supplement is fairly arbitrary anyway. Even the players that aren't engaging in banned doping are still causing lasting damage to their health. Simply competing on that level requires pushing your body significantly past the "regular exercise" you'd want to do for longevity.
posted by leo_r at 2:02 PM on July 23, 2013
"I care about PEDs because they are demonstrably bad for you, because kids take them because they're willing to take that risk to get ahead in sports, because clean athletes have no chance in a cheaters-allowed world."
Right now, the best hitter in baseball is able to compete with only some booze, the best pitchers are able to compete without it, etc. It's really more of a concern for on-the-bubble AAA guys than anything else.
Also, kids love amphetamines and will gladly take them to compete at anything.
posted by klangklangston at 2:05 PM on July 23, 2013
Right now, the best hitter in baseball is able to compete with only some booze, the best pitchers are able to compete without it, etc. It's really more of a concern for on-the-bubble AAA guys than anything else.
Also, kids love amphetamines and will gladly take them to compete at anything.
posted by klangklangston at 2:05 PM on July 23, 2013
Minor leaguers don't have the same MLBPA protections as those on the big league club
Absolutely. You could say the MLBPA.... really goes to bat for them.
yeaaaaaahhhh
posted by ZaphodB at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Absolutely. You could say the MLBPA.... really goes to bat for them.
yeaaaaaahhhh
posted by ZaphodB at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
What happened to Bonds' annual output when the steroid abuse scandal rose to the top, and many players - including Bonds - stopped using. His HR stats dropped off the cliff.
copronymus: Really? Obviously the 73 is a huge outlier, but he was still hitting 40+ home runs for 2 years after the BALCO investigation, then he hurt his knee and still hit the most homers ever hit by anyone after turning 40.
"That Barry Bonds took anabolics there is no question the court has documents and tests stating that three types of performance enhancing substances were found in his tests. His response is that he took these on the advice of his trainer and had no idea they were steroids."
PEDs contributed to Bonds' HR output, both in his "outlier year" and in his total stats. Nobody said that Bonds didn't have massive talent, or was not one of the greatest ever. What's being said is that he does not deserve the records he broke. Same with Lance Armstrong.
posted by Vibrissae at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2013
copronymus: Really? Obviously the 73 is a huge outlier, but he was still hitting 40+ home runs for 2 years after the BALCO investigation, then he hurt his knee and still hit the most homers ever hit by anyone after turning 40.
"That Barry Bonds took anabolics there is no question the court has documents and tests stating that three types of performance enhancing substances were found in his tests. His response is that he took these on the advice of his trainer and had no idea they were steroids."
PEDs contributed to Bonds' HR output, both in his "outlier year" and in his total stats. Nobody said that Bonds didn't have massive talent, or was not one of the greatest ever. What's being said is that he does not deserve the records he broke. Same with Lance Armstrong.
posted by Vibrissae at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2013
… but if he would have broken those records anyway, without the negligible help of the steroids, and if the point of records is to record what actually happened, then it seems downright weird to get all het up about him.
I mean, I think he's a total asshole, but the more I've looked into this, the more overblown it seems.
posted by klangklangston at 2:14 PM on July 23, 2013
I mean, I think he's a total asshole, but the more I've looked into this, the more overblown it seems.
posted by klangklangston at 2:14 PM on July 23, 2013
PEDs contributed to Bonds' HR output, both in his "outlier year" and in his total stats. Nobody said that Bonds didn't have massive talent, or was not one of the greatest ever. What's being said is that he does not deserve the records he broke. Same with Lance Armstrong.
None of these statements have anything to do with my assertion, which was that Bonds's home run totals didn't "drop off the cliff" after he was implicated in a steroids scandal.
posted by Copronymus at 2:15 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
None of these statements have anything to do with my assertion, which was that Bonds's home run totals didn't "drop off the cliff" after he was implicated in a steroids scandal.
posted by Copronymus at 2:15 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
PEDs contributed to Bonds' HR output, both in his "outlier year" and in his total stats. Nobody said that Bonds didn't have massive talent, or was not one of the greatest ever. What's being said is that he does not deserve the records he broke. Same with Lance Armstrong.
Coronymus: None of these statements have anything to do with my assertion, which was that Bonds' home run totals didn't "drop off the cliff" after he was implicated in a steroids scandal.
We can parse this all we want. What's a cliff? Why is the 73HR year labeled an "outlier" year, when by definition that makes everything else look normal? etc. etc, ad nauseum.
Bottom line: Bonds used; his use benefited his total and annual stats. He barely broke the lifetime record, and it's quite obvious that at the peak of his PEDs use, he had his "outlier year". Bring that outlier year back to his highest prior annual HR total - roughly 46 homers. He loses both records, period.
It's pathetic that the weak Baseball Commissioner and others would let those phony HR (and some other) records in the HoF. As long as those records are there, Bonds should not be admitted, period. Bonds cheated; that's the bottom line. So did Clemens, and McGuire, Sosa, Armstrong, etc. Their so-called records should not stand.
posted by Vibrissae at 2:29 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Coronymus: None of these statements have anything to do with my assertion, which was that Bonds' home run totals didn't "drop off the cliff" after he was implicated in a steroids scandal.
We can parse this all we want. What's a cliff? Why is the 73HR year labeled an "outlier" year, when by definition that makes everything else look normal? etc. etc, ad nauseum.
Bottom line: Bonds used; his use benefited his total and annual stats. He barely broke the lifetime record, and it's quite obvious that at the peak of his PEDs use, he had his "outlier year". Bring that outlier year back to his highest prior annual HR total - roughly 46 homers. He loses both records, period.
It's pathetic that the weak Baseball Commissioner and others would let those phony HR (and some other) records in the HoF. As long as those records are there, Bonds should not be admitted, period. Bonds cheated; that's the bottom line. So did Clemens, and McGuire, Sosa, Armstrong, etc. Their so-called records should not stand.
posted by Vibrissae at 2:29 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Here's the full mlb testing program currently in use. Looks like everyone is tested in spring training and there are 1400 random tests during the season with 200 tests in the off-season. Given there are 30 teams with 40 man rosters you have 1200 players available for testing so you'll probably get tested twice a year.
I did get a chuckle out of the fact that they cannot test for the street drugs in the off season, only the PEDs.
posted by cmfletcher at 2:30 PM on July 23, 2013
I did get a chuckle out of the fact that they cannot test for the street drugs in the off season, only the PEDs.
posted by cmfletcher at 2:30 PM on July 23, 2013
"Why is the 73HR year labeled an "outlier" year, when by definition that makes everything else look normal?"
If you have to ask, you may not understand the concept of "outlier."
posted by klangklangston at 2:37 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you have to ask, you may not understand the concept of "outlier."
posted by klangklangston at 2:37 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
The interesting thing about the Braun case is the 65 games for what is, thanks to his successful appeal, technically a first offense. The legal blitzkrieg his team rained down the first time he was caught made it clear he was willing to fight getting suspended with any tools at his disposal. So for him to plea his way down to 15 games more than the prescribed penalty... They clearly had him dead to rights with extraordinary evidence and were ready to crush him with penalties above and beyond anything seen before. There's no other explanation why his lawyers would take that deal.
This is probably going to be the model here on out for MLB in dealing with those nabbed in the BioGenesis scandal. They're going to threaten unheard of penalties and players will either have to cop a plea or get stung like no other player in their position has ever been stung before.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:50 PM on July 23, 2013
This is probably going to be the model here on out for MLB in dealing with those nabbed in the BioGenesis scandal. They're going to threaten unheard of penalties and players will either have to cop a plea or get stung like no other player in their position has ever been stung before.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:50 PM on July 23, 2013
Over/under on the upcoming A-Rod suspension is said to be 150 games. MLB is said to have even more on A-Rod than they have on Braun.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:54 PM on July 23, 2013
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:54 PM on July 23, 2013
It's pathetic that the weak Baseball Commissioner and others would let those phony HR (and some other) records in the HoF.
That's not quite how it works. Also, what would be the point? Ignoring 67/ 71/ 73 would create an elephant that takes up the whole room.
posted by yerfatma at 3:00 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's not quite how it works. Also, what would be the point? Ignoring 67/ 71/ 73 would create an elephant that takes up the whole room.
posted by yerfatma at 3:00 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I hope Laurenzi sues the shit out of Braun now. Dude lied to save his own ass and got Laurenzi fired.
Laurenzi got fired because he didn't follow protocol on handling the samples. If you don't think players should insist on procedures being followed correctly when millions of dollars are a stake then you're crazy.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 3:05 PM on July 23, 2013
Laurenzi got fired because he didn't follow protocol on handling the samples. If you don't think players should insist on procedures being followed correctly when millions of dollars are a stake then you're crazy.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 3:05 PM on July 23, 2013
Ignoring 67/ 71/ 73 would create an elephant that takes up the whole room.
Maybe your room, not the great room that includes authentic, non-juiced greats like the Babe and Hammerin' Hank Aaron. Let's see what the Baseball Writers Assn. thinks in future years. One thing I know for sure; they have received my letters about how Bonds should never see the HoF podium while he's alive, if at all - until his phony "records" are sandblasted from baseball history.
posted by Vibrissae at 3:36 PM on July 23, 2013
Maybe your room, not the great room that includes authentic, non-juiced greats like the Babe and Hammerin' Hank Aaron. Let's see what the Baseball Writers Assn. thinks in future years. One thing I know for sure; they have received my letters about how Bonds should never see the HoF podium while he's alive, if at all - until his phony "records" are sandblasted from baseball history.
posted by Vibrissae at 3:36 PM on July 23, 2013
Maybe the weirdest part of the whole Treating the Steroid Era Records with Asterisks notion is the recasting of Roger Maris as the hero of legitimacy, when, in fact, the entire frigging Records Devalued with an Asterisk thing was invented as a dig against Maris.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:42 PM on July 23, 2013
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:42 PM on July 23, 2013
CBS is reporting MLB wants to ban A-Rod for life.
non-juiced greats like the Babe
That's beautiful. Do you actually watch baseball or just remember a perfect past that never was?
posted by yerfatma at 3:43 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
non-juiced greats like the Babe
That's beautiful. Do you actually watch baseball or just remember a perfect past that never was?
posted by yerfatma at 3:43 PM on July 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many NBA, NFL and other professional league players are mentioned in the Biogensis documents that the MLB got their hands on? When are those names gonna leak?
I seriously doubt that Biogensis did business solely with baseball players.
posted by Groundhog Week at 4:20 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I seriously doubt that Biogensis did business solely with baseball players.
posted by Groundhog Week at 4:20 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Let's not even insert Babe Ruth into the PED debate, okay?
Because first someone says Babe hardly lived a clean life. Then someone else says, yeah, but beer and hot dogs aren't performance enhancing. Then someone else says, yeah, but who knows what else he might have used? Then someone else says, yeah, but there's not even circumstantial evidence he ever used amphetamines, let alone steroids. Then someone else says, yeah, but he never played in an integrated league. Then someone else says, yeah, but he did extraordinarily well against Negro League All-Stars in barnstorming play (.471, home runs in nearly a quarter of his plate appearances.) Then someone else says, yeah, but he didn't have to criss cross the country like players today. Then someone else says, yeah, but Bonds and McGwire never had to ride all night on buses. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth didn't routinely face 100 mph fastballs. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth played in an era of spitballs, scuffing, and rampant sign stealing. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth never had to play against Japanese or Latin American players. Then someone else says, yeah, but in this era, many of the finest American athletes never even play baseball, they go into basketball or football or soccer. Then someone else says, yeah, but athletes were smaller in Ruth's era, and even 5'10" 180 lb. guys that would be considered small now were thought good-sized. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth played before they lowered the mound. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth had the advantage of facing the same pitchers over and over because of smaller leagues. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth never got to review video or use automated batting machines. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth didn't have to play night games under the lights. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth never had the benefit of aqua therapy or cortisone shots or even batting helmets. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth didn't have to face relief specialists. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth was also one of the finest left-handed pitchers of his era, winning twenty games, setting a record for consecutive scoreless innings pitched in the World Series. Then someone else says yeah, but Ruth never had to play against defensive shifts like today. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth had to play in tons of double headers. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth was fat, that would never wash today. Then someone else says, yeah, but only at the end and people only remember that more because sports photography improved so much in the 30s at the end of his career. Then someone else says yeah, but...
It's tiresome. The eras are different. The only thing we can say for sure is, in his league, in his day, Ruth dominated like no one ever had or has since.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:40 PM on July 23, 2013 [18 favorites]
Because first someone says Babe hardly lived a clean life. Then someone else says, yeah, but beer and hot dogs aren't performance enhancing. Then someone else says, yeah, but who knows what else he might have used? Then someone else says, yeah, but there's not even circumstantial evidence he ever used amphetamines, let alone steroids. Then someone else says, yeah, but he never played in an integrated league. Then someone else says, yeah, but he did extraordinarily well against Negro League All-Stars in barnstorming play (.471, home runs in nearly a quarter of his plate appearances.) Then someone else says, yeah, but he didn't have to criss cross the country like players today. Then someone else says, yeah, but Bonds and McGwire never had to ride all night on buses. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth didn't routinely face 100 mph fastballs. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth played in an era of spitballs, scuffing, and rampant sign stealing. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth never had to play against Japanese or Latin American players. Then someone else says, yeah, but in this era, many of the finest American athletes never even play baseball, they go into basketball or football or soccer. Then someone else says, yeah, but athletes were smaller in Ruth's era, and even 5'10" 180 lb. guys that would be considered small now were thought good-sized. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth played before they lowered the mound. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth had the advantage of facing the same pitchers over and over because of smaller leagues. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth never got to review video or use automated batting machines. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth didn't have to play night games under the lights. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth never had the benefit of aqua therapy or cortisone shots or even batting helmets. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth didn't have to face relief specialists. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth was also one of the finest left-handed pitchers of his era, winning twenty games, setting a record for consecutive scoreless innings pitched in the World Series. Then someone else says yeah, but Ruth never had to play against defensive shifts like today. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth had to play in tons of double headers. Then someone else says, yeah, but Ruth was fat, that would never wash today. Then someone else says, yeah, but only at the end and people only remember that more because sports photography improved so much in the 30s at the end of his career. Then someone else says yeah, but...
It's tiresome. The eras are different. The only thing we can say for sure is, in his league, in his day, Ruth dominated like no one ever had or has since.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:40 PM on July 23, 2013 [18 favorites]
From now on the winner of the series is the team that hides the drugs best? Drug Series!
posted by telstar at 5:07 PM on July 23, 2013
posted by telstar at 5:07 PM on July 23, 2013
61*
posted by playertobenamedlater at 5:10 PM on July 23, 2013
posted by playertobenamedlater at 5:10 PM on July 23, 2013
The asterisk is almost a badge of honour now, isn't it.
posted by Chuckles at 5:19 PM on July 23, 2013
posted by Chuckles at 5:19 PM on July 23, 2013
and yet, poor Pete Rose is still left out in the cold.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 11:27 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 11:27 PM on July 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Nice to see a sport other than cycling getting implicated for this, but if they had a real testing regime in MLB, NFL and NBA ranks I suspect there would be few players remaining eligible to compete. The testing regimes set up by these organizations are a careful negotiation between players and the franchises to set up the rules of engagement so that doping can largely continue while everyone gets a free pass to say how much they are doing to fight doping.
In cycling someone shows up at your doorstep any time of the year, day or night, to conduct a test and if you can't be found for testing often enough (you need to report your whereabouts and being MIA is equated with doping) you get sacked by your team. They monitor your blood values throughout the year and if it crosses the line you get sacked. Teams increasingly are taking a shared commitment to exclude the whole team from racing for 8 days whenever one member is implicated.
My point is... if these other sports did 10% of what cycling does today there would be a shit storm of controversy and a lot of heroes would fall.
posted by dgran at 8:19 AM on July 24, 2013
In cycling someone shows up at your doorstep any time of the year, day or night, to conduct a test and if you can't be found for testing often enough (you need to report your whereabouts and being MIA is equated with doping) you get sacked by your team. They monitor your blood values throughout the year and if it crosses the line you get sacked. Teams increasingly are taking a shared commitment to exclude the whole team from racing for 8 days whenever one member is implicated.
My point is... if these other sports did 10% of what cycling does today there would be a shit storm of controversy and a lot of heroes would fall.
posted by dgran at 8:19 AM on July 24, 2013
Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers bet even more money than Braun will lose that Braun was clean.
posted by Etrigan at 8:34 AM on July 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 8:34 AM on July 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ignoring 67/ 71/ 73 would create an elephant that takes up the whole room.
Counterpoint: 4256.
There's no talk of an asterisk on 4.256. (No name, but no asterisk. ;)
posted by mrgrimm at 9:19 AM on July 24, 2013
Counterpoint: 4256.
There's no talk of an asterisk on 4.256. (No name, but no asterisk. ;)
posted by mrgrimm at 9:19 AM on July 24, 2013
gotta say the Rose Bond/Sousa/whomever disparity is pretty head scratching. Is the implication that rose would have thrown games to win bets? because if it is not that then you know? why do people give a shit about major league baseball? Betting OMFG BANNED FOR LIFE. Actually cheating... well we'll give you an asterisk.
And I gotta say at the end of it all yeah Bonds' achievements should be scrubbed because it creates the uncertainty that exists that he deserves the it or not. People can make decent arguments that he may have close to as good as he did, but we will never actually know. And what would have been his real numbers? What should some young player shoot for to legitimately break Bond's mark? He fucked up the number for everyone, and so imo, that number should be scrubbed because it is unreliable. Yeah, he could have broken/likely would have broken records but no one know for sure and no one knows by what factor. I don't think the argument should be... but he was a great ball player... that avoids the issues we will never know. What would have been his mark/ How many games would have they lost? etc.
posted by edgeways at 9:37 AM on July 24, 2013
And I gotta say at the end of it all yeah Bonds' achievements should be scrubbed because it creates the uncertainty that exists that he deserves the it or not. People can make decent arguments that he may have close to as good as he did, but we will never actually know. And what would have been his real numbers? What should some young player shoot for to legitimately break Bond's mark? He fucked up the number for everyone, and so imo, that number should be scrubbed because it is unreliable. Yeah, he could have broken/likely would have broken records but no one know for sure and no one knows by what factor. I don't think the argument should be... but he was a great ball player... that avoids the issues we will never know. What would have been his mark/ How many games would have they lost? etc.
posted by edgeways at 9:37 AM on July 24, 2013
Betting OMFG BANNED FOR LIFE. Actually cheating... well we'll give you an asterisk.
1. The asterisk doesn't actually exist. It's something reporters came up with to defend The Great and Honorable Ruth versus That Upstart Marris who had an extra 8 games.
2. In my mind betting is a far worse threat to the "sanctity" of the results: I can take all the PEDs in the world and still not be good enough to win, but any fool can manage to lose.
posted by yerfatma at 9:52 AM on July 24, 2013
1. The asterisk doesn't actually exist. It's something reporters came up with to defend The Great and Honorable Ruth versus That Upstart Marris who had an extra 8 games.
2. In my mind betting is a far worse threat to the "sanctity" of the results: I can take all the PEDs in the world and still not be good enough to win, but any fool can manage to lose.
posted by yerfatma at 9:52 AM on July 24, 2013
And what would have been his real numbers?
The real numbers are the "real numbers." Everything else is conjecture.
73
762
232
2,558
posted by mrgrimm at 9:56 AM on July 24, 2013
The real numbers are the "real numbers." Everything else is conjecture.
73
762
232
2,558
posted by mrgrimm at 9:56 AM on July 24, 2013
In my mind betting is a far worse threat to the "sanctity" of the results: I can take all the PEDs in the world and still not be good enough to win, but any fool can manage to lose.
I think most fans would agree. Most fans are happy to look the other way as their players abuse "edge x" in order to win, but they aren't so happy when players start missing free throws to cover spreads.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:57 AM on July 24, 2013
I think most fans would agree. Most fans are happy to look the other way as their players abuse "edge x" in order to win, but they aren't so happy when players start missing free throws to cover spreads.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:57 AM on July 24, 2013
I'm really tired of the "what about amphetamines" argument as an excuse for PEDs being okay . . . I care about PEDs because they are demonstrably bad for you
The Faces of Meth.
This is from way up the thread, but to be clear the reason I'm tired of the "what about amphetamines" argument is not because they aren't bad for you as well*, it's because previous amphetamine use by baseball players in prior generations is used as a reason to say that there's not much cause to care about PED use. And I call flaming bullcrap on that one. It's all cheating, but in the case of PEDs the level of cheating is enhanced an order of magnitude.
* tiny nit, as they are both dangerous drugs, but methamphetamine != amphetamine
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:18 AM on July 24, 2013
The Faces of Meth.
This is from way up the thread, but to be clear the reason I'm tired of the "what about amphetamines" argument is not because they aren't bad for you as well*, it's because previous amphetamine use by baseball players in prior generations is used as a reason to say that there's not much cause to care about PED use. And I call flaming bullcrap on that one. It's all cheating, but in the case of PEDs the level of cheating is enhanced an order of magnitude.
* tiny nit, as they are both dangerous drugs, but methamphetamine != amphetamine
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:18 AM on July 24, 2013
Report: A-Rod will be banned for life from baseball.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:46 PM on July 31, 2013
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:46 PM on July 31, 2013
Joe Sheehan on A-Rod, Bud Selig, and "the best interests of baseball"
posted by Copronymus at 1:11 PM on August 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Copronymus at 1:11 PM on August 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
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