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July 31, 2013 8:38 AM   Subscribe

Why don't we find men sexy when they're presented in pinup poses considered sexy for women? Photographer Rion Sabean's Men-Ups! project is "... aimed at reversing the stereotypes created by society, begging the questions, why is it sexual for a female to pose one way, and not sexual for a male? Why is it considered more comical or unsettling for males to act the more socially defined feminine?"
posted by Annie Savoy (111 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite


 
Is it because we're socially conditioned to find particular things attractive?

Plenty of people seem unsettled when they find women in roles traditionally associated with men. Right wing blogs are full of them.
posted by biffa at 8:43 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


I think all those photos are sexy.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 8:44 AM on July 31, 2013 [11 favorites]


There have been a lot of similar projects recently (which is probably a good thing for broad consciousness, though it does tend to make the work less noteworthy), but what I'll also note is that in working with a lot of gay dudes, there's certainly a fair number of them that do find guys in these poses sexy enough to print 'em out and put 'em on their office walls.
posted by klangklangston at 8:44 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


This feels double-y but I guess it's just been linked often in comments on other posts.
posted by elizardbits at 8:44 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Interesting project, but aren't the poses Sabean has his models in derived from drawn/painted pinups rather than from photographs? Hence, isn't the exaggeration inherent in drawing rather than photographing pinups, when translated back into a photo, more responsible for finding them strange rather than any notions about sexuality and gender roles?
posted by MartinWisse at 8:44 AM on July 31, 2013 [6 favorites]


There are plenty of man poses that accentuate man parts.
posted by Dmenet at 8:45 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Also sassy lumberjack is my favourite.
posted by elizardbits at 8:45 AM on July 31, 2013


That's not a very hard question to answer. The women also look dumb when posed like this, but we don't much mind, since we like looking at pretty things. So when you take men, even pretty men, and put them in these stupid poses it just further points out the whole thing is silly.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:45 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, there's plenty of vocabulary for "sexy man pose" in gay porn. You can start with Tom of Finland (NSFW), his style is so consciously pin-up repurposed for gay men.
posted by Nelson at 8:45 AM on July 31, 2013 [16 favorites]


I think I have this figured out. These poses accentuate physical attributes that are not considered attracted when possessed by men. Although, if anyone is into man boobs that's cool too.
posted by Ad hominem at 8:48 AM on July 31, 2013 [9 favorites]


Interesting project, but aren't the poses Sabean has his models in derived from drawn/painted pinups rather than from photographs?

Sorry for linking to the Daily Fail, but at least some painted pinups were themselves based on photos.
posted by elizardbits at 8:48 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Because litheness, symmetry and an adequate distribution of body fat are markers of female suitability for childbirth, whereas overall skeletal structure and musculature as well as social standing are markers for fathering suitability?
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:49 AM on July 31, 2013 [21 favorites]


*stops hand halfway to mouth, drops celery back on plate*
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:49 AM on July 31, 2013 [24 favorites]


These poses to me say "I am comfortable with my sexuality and don't care what you think is 'comical' or 'unsettling.' " And as a woman who likes men, that is way hotter to me than any dude unironically flexing his muscles while shooting a eight point buck and exuding alpha machismo or whatever.
posted by erstwhile ungulate at 8:49 AM on July 31, 2013 [8 favorites]


The women also look dumb when posed like this

True. At least most of these poses accentuate a woman's breasts and curves. Which is why guy pin-ups tend to accentuate features more common to guys.
posted by Margalo Epps at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2013


Go nuts, Greg Nog.
posted by orme at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


The typical pin-up poses for women are designed to present/display/serve-up certain physical characteristics that men focus on. Think of the typical boobs-and-butt pose.

The poses don't work for the typical "attractive" male physique, though.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


There have been a lot of similar projects recently (which is probably a good thing for broad consciousness, though it does tend to make the work less noteworthy), but what I'll also note is that in working with a lot of gay dudes, there's certainly a fair number of them that do find guys in these poses sexy enough to print 'em out and put 'em on their office walls.

Be nice to see a version that instead puts women in poses traditionally held by men.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


Of course I drop dead for hot butch women in suits.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:51 AM on July 31, 2013


I was just thinking that there are men's poses; there are lots of men's pin-ups not just for a gay audience, but also pop & film/tv stars in things marketed towards straight girls and women. But the poses tend to accentuate the masculinity of the figure, even for teen/young stars who may be very slender and/or androgynous. Thus one typical pose is the young man sitting, slouching back with their legs somewhat open, perhaps with an arm up on the back of seat - that pose which so annoys their neighbours on a crowded bus or subway, but is attractive to those looking for male pin ups.
posted by jb at 8:52 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also, pin-ups are built on rather antiquated ideas of femininity. Trying to map those onto more contemporary images of men is going to create tension, both in our expectations of gender expression and social cues as they have developed over the last 50 years or so.

For myself, I found them playful and briefly amusing, but I could understand how others would dismiss them as overly camp (not in itself a bad thing, but, perhaps not to their taste). There is something in the archness of the expressions that suggests "this is a joke" rather than "this is sexy fun."

That being said, I think bikeguy hits the sweet spot of "just arch enough."
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:52 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


Sorry for linking to the Daily Fail, but at least some painted pinups were themselves based on photos.

Thanks. Sort of proves my point: those photos look a lot dumber than the pinups that resulted from them.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:52 AM on July 31, 2013


Who says I don't find these sexy?
posted by Theta States at 8:53 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Of course I drop dead for hot butch women in suits.

Of course, that's just a natural reaction. Even non-butch women look great in a suit and tie.
posted by jb at 8:53 AM on July 31, 2013


Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines
posted by zoo at 8:53 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


Of course I drop dead for hot butch women in suits.

I read that as "Of course I drop dead for hot butch women in track suits," and I thought "every reader his or her book."
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:55 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


I agree that these guys are making a joke out of it rather than trying to look sexy.
posted by asperity at 8:55 AM on July 31, 2013 [5 favorites]


The women also look dumb when posed like this

You know, if you think about it, most of human sex and sexuality is pretty deeply stupid.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:55 AM on July 31, 2013 [24 favorites]


There's a HUGE question being begged here--I don't find those poses sexy when women do them. I dislike the sassy little girl, oopsie finger to the lips, Betty Boop thing that women do as much as I dislike ducklips.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:57 AM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]


I am assuming that these positions, in some bizarre way, are identified with the female in a "ready for sex" position. I do not understand the prevalence of the pursed lips, however. Ready to kiss? Why is that not attractive when seen on a man?

Also, what Pogo_Fuzzybutt said.
posted by blurker at 8:57 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


*stops hand halfway to mouth, drops celery back on plate*

You are an incorrigible flirt.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:59 AM on July 31, 2013 [8 favorites]




Because litheness, symmetry and an adequate distribution of body fat are markers of female suitability for childbirth, whereas overall skeletal structure and musculature as well as social standing are markers for fathering suitability?


eegh is this a joke
posted by sweetkid at 9:00 AM on July 31, 2013 [17 favorites]


I dislike the sassy little girl, oopsie finger to the lips, Betty Boop thing that women do

That women do? Women in your daily life do this?
posted by sweetkid at 9:02 AM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]


I assume he meant "that thing women in similarly themed photosets are instructed to do by photographers and/or stylists"?
posted by elizardbits at 9:04 AM on July 31, 2013 [8 favorites]


these pinups are also based on REALLY OLD female pinups. I haven't seen any made like this in the last few decades. We would find them equally ridiculous/ironic with women.

as for male pinups, here is a modern example. [NSFW]
posted by jb at 9:05 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


Isn't this what Tiger Beat is for?
posted by bonehead at 9:10 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


> eegh is this a joke

Nope, it's a guess/question.

I don't really know what goes through the minds of folks who do pin-up poses, though as a connoisseur of classic pin-up from early-mid last century, as well as Vallejo and Frazetta and their genre fantasy covers, and particularly romance novel covers, it seems to be what they're trying to suggest.

Men are tall, muscled and in charge, and showing these attributes off.
Women are sleek, well formed and shapely, and showing those attributes off.

These differences in representation of the human physical form in fine art go back to the beginning of the renaissance, and are also reflected somewhat in art from earlier civilizations, though representationalism was not so adept then.

My only guess is that the endurance of this art style has some root in biology.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:11 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


Related (and possibly what ellizardbits may have been referring to, as I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned here on the Blue): The Hawkeye Initiative, which presents sketches of the archer Avenger in the same ludicrous poses in which various female superheroes are routinely depicted.
posted by Gelatin at 9:12 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


I tend to assume it is formed by patriarchy rather than rooted in biology, as if biology was the source men would be fancily beplumed and dancing seductively as the norm.
posted by elizardbits at 9:13 AM on July 31, 2013 [42 favorites]


I'm not sure it's possible to separate out the patriarchal overtones from the biological ones in the art style, either. If we had a good sampling of art from a society where patriarchy wasn't the norm it would be clear one way or the other though.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:14 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


on preview: no, I've seen this exact man-ups photoset a bunch of times on mefi, but on searching for it it only comes up in comments.
posted by elizardbits at 9:14 AM on July 31, 2013


See also: Hawkeye Initiative cosplay.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:15 AM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]


My apologies, elizardbits.
posted by Gelatin at 9:15 AM on July 31, 2013


I come to Metafilter to watch smart people bending over backwards.
posted by General Tonic at 9:19 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


as if biology was the source men would be fancily beplumed and dancing seductively as the norm.

Wait, no one else is doing this? I guess that explains the failure of my OKCupid profile .gif.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:22 AM on July 31, 2013 [17 favorites]


Hmmm - I think that perhaps some of the reason why these aren't necessarily translating into sexy for me is due to the lack of "face" - The subjects' eyes and mouths don't really say come hither, or innocent, or anything I usually see in the gal pinups. The guys just look like they are trying really hard to hold the pose and the face position, but not emoting the sexy. Mr. Bike-Fixer is werkin' it pretty good (and looks pretty sexy hot to me, a woman), and Mr. Dirt Shoveler is almost hitting the right note, but the rest are either looking half scared or making too much direct stare/questioning into the camera. Nevermind the lack of genuine, friendly smiles, which was what made most pinup alluring in the first place.
(Not to mention that a lot of awesome pinup was painted or drawn art - real photograph subjects don't always have the ability to portray the charms of the painted character...Even pro models have a hard time in this format. Number 16 and 18 are the closest to holding actual pinup face - 16's face is slightly softened in the outcome though.)
posted by NorthernAutumn at 9:24 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


why is it sexual for a female to pose one way, and not sexual for a male? Why is it considered more comical or unsettling for males to act the more socially defined feminine?

Whoever poses these questions has not discovered tumblr yet.

These differences in representation of the human physical form in fine art go back to the beginning of the renaissance, and are also reflected somewhat in art from earlier civilizations, though representationalism was not so adept then.


Yea? But who is doing the representing? No, seriously. That is really important. Also, there are in fact quite a lot of eroticized, pin-up-like poses of men in renaissance art. Look at any depiction of Saint Sebastian and tell me it's not sensual in a very feminized sort of way.

Personally, I'd prefer something like this (slightly nsfw) than some muscled up macho man showing how powerful he is.
posted by adso at 9:26 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


Well the One Million (ha!) Moms people got all hot n' bothered over Zesty Guy, with good reason. Yowza. Some similar ads also at that link.

Does no one remember the Diet Coke guy?
posted by emjaybee at 9:27 AM on July 31, 2013


Google "Dieux Du Stade". It's a callendar of nekkid French Rugby players.

Very different poses indeed.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:29 AM on July 31, 2013 [8 favorites]


Don't google it at work, tho.
posted by elizardbits at 9:30 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


Photographer Rion Sabean's Men-Ups! project is "... aimed at reversing the stereotypes created by society, begging the questions, why is it sexual for a female to pose one way, and not sexual for a male?

Because men and women really are different. Not sure what's complicated about hat.

Not that society doesn't build some strange generalizations that end up being harmful. But swamping out poses doesn't really map.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:30 AM on July 31, 2013 [6 favorites]


Why isn't there one with a man getting his trousers pulled down while he carries a bag of groceries with celery sticking out of the top

I need to see celery to get off, we have discussed this


This shirt is for you, Greg.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:30 AM on July 31, 2013 [10 favorites]


Its the facial expressions. The expressions kill it for me. I'm on my phone and can't search right now but there are studies about how humans interpret emotions through facial expressions. None of their faces elicit sexy for me. Had their faces been more natural or relaxed I would have been more intrigued. Instead....their duck lips and "surprised" eyes distracted me from the overall message...regardless of gender.

Which now makes me wonder...has the ducklips/pursed lips in so many photos now conditioned us to be repelled from that once sexy expression? Someone go do that study...I'm working on a different one.
posted by MultiFaceted at 9:32 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


as for male pinups, here is a modern example. [NSFW]

I would not have expected Dan Savage's husband to look like that, I say, attempting to strike the most neutral tone possible.
posted by Diablevert at 9:33 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


I googled Dieux Du Stade, now I feel bad eating this mcgriddle.

Fuck it, I'm smart and have a sense of humor which is all that matters isn't it?
posted by Ad hominem at 9:35 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


Out of curiosity I googled up some lesbian and gay romance novel covers to see how the characters were represented there. I found a mishmash of stuff that didn't really seem to make an argument either way (omg I'm publishing a null result).

However, I do commend to you this cover for Shy drawn by Paul Richmond (whose most recent blog post is a really lovely wedding). There are other covers in that blog post, and apparently he's now the AD for Dreamspinner press.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:36 AM on July 31, 2013


Because men and women really are different. Not sure what's complicated about hat.

Not that society doesn't build some strange generalizations that end up being harmful. But swamping out poses doesn't really map.


Your typos are frightening me.
posted by fairmettle at 9:36 AM on July 31, 2013 [13 favorites]


Also, previously and previouslier. Actually, this post is sort of a dupe of that first link ... how bout y'all tag your posts with f'ing Rion Sabean? /copyeditorrant

I think that perhaps some of the reason why these aren't necessarily translating into sexy for me is due to the lack of "face" - The subjects' eyes and mouths don't really say come hither, or innocent, or anything I usually see in the gal pinups.

That's a good point. The models look too much like it's a joke/parody.

Because men and women really are different. Not sure what's complicated about [t]hat.

No, you're right, there's nothing at all complicated about sex or gender.

*biggest hamburger-induced eye roll EVER*
posted by mrgrimm at 9:36 AM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]


does anyone remember the Diet Coke guy?

Speaking of him, here's a clever riff on that....
posted by Diablevert at 9:37 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


I have this suspicion that part of the deal here is that a lot of these poses evoke not women per se but specifically little girls (like the oopsiedaisie finger to lips and the super swayed posture). Young boys aren't sexualized to nearly the same extent as young girls, so all of a sudden that aspect becomes really obvious when you have men enacting these poses.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:39 AM on July 31, 2013 [21 favorites]


Whenever I think of those "tee hee I'm just a silly little girl" poses, I think back to the "boop boop de doop SEX" song from Community.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:40 AM on July 31, 2013 [6 favorites]


Remember the commercial for Brut cologne in the 1980s? A "sexy" woman at home, missing her man, smelling his bottle of cologne, and then putting on one of his shirts and hats and a splash of his cologne...then the phone rings - it's him - and she says, "I was just thinking about you."

I've always thought it would be a hoot to gender-reverse that commercial - man at home, puts on wife's/GF's blouse and skirt, a splash of her perfume, etc.

Here's the original commercial.
posted by davidmsc at 9:43 AM on July 31, 2013 [7 favorites]


I'd say inherent sexism, internalized sexism and project like this and the hawkeye initiative that also carry (unintentional though it may be, intent doesn't erase impact) a bit of transmisogyny.
posted by ShawnStruck at 9:44 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


I was glad to see the same insipid look on the male models faces as one finds in the female pin-ups.
posted by _paegan_ at 9:45 AM on July 31, 2013


Many of the pin-ups from the 30s and 40s were "innocents exposed" poses. Look at what they're suggesting they're really rape-by-proxy if you ask me: something involuntary "happens" to her normal virginal/innocent outerwear thus exposing her as a sexual being, but "oopsie!" she doesn't really mind, so it's okay that you look. So, she's allowed to be a virgin and a sex object at the same time.

Pretty disturbing.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:48 AM on July 31, 2013 [10 favorites]


I have this suspicion that part of the deal here is that a lot of these poses evoke not women per set but specifically little girls (like the oopsiedaisie finger to lips and the super swayed posture). Young boys aren't sexualized to nearly the same extent as young girls, so all of a sudden that aspect becomes really obvious when you have men enacting these poses.

I disagree with you there. I think there's a clear distinction that can be drawn between naïveté and childishness. There's a degree to which, in traditional conceptions of gender roles, weakness, naivite, shyness, and innocence are seen as attractive in women when their opposites are seen as attractive in men: strength, confidence, worldliness, intelligence. The knight and the maiden, the dumb blond, Boyfriend-kills-bugs, "You are 16 going on 17..." Man as protector. So I don't think it's the girlishness that's sexy as much as the naïveté.
posted by Diablevert at 9:49 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


Irony = These were blocked by my work's websense filter.
posted by kuanes at 9:54 AM on July 31, 2013


The tumblrs of teenage girls - and some grown women - are filled with innocent looking pretty boys from popular tv shows, bands, etc.
posted by jb at 10:01 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


Your typos are frightening me.

WIND WIND.

No, you're right, there's nothing at all complicated about sex or gender.

As others have mentioned, the poses are from a particular era, designed to be done by women and aimed at heterosexual males. Swapping in dudes definitely changes that dynamic because heterosexual guys aren't interested in gazing at men in sexual manner. At least not without a few drinks and a woman there to say "it's ok, this one time".
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:04 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh FFS not this stale meme again.

Maybe someone could do the reverse project, put women (presumably random, not particularly attractive ones like in that photo series) into male pinup poses.

seanmpuckett has the most accurate take, this is a narrow selection of poses taken from one specific genre of portraiture. Artists have used a wide variety of traditional posing techniques in male and female body depictions (from painting and drawing to sculpture) and there is a specific set of methods that are used to depict different things, from action poses to poses emphasizing bodily proportions (like big arms or big hips). You can easily see the crossover in famous artworks like the Sistine Chapel Ceiling, Michelangelo used young boys as models for most of the female figures, and all his paintings of women have manly arms and torsos.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:06 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


> these pinups are also based on REALLY OLD female pinups. I haven't seen any made like this in the last few decades

Ahem.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:09 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think "litheness" is more a marker for age and opportunity, not for childbirth suitability.

So seanmpucket your thesis doesn't escape the possibility we have social reasons (rather than biological) for finding these male poses incongruous.
posted by surplus at 10:11 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


presumably random, not particularly attractive ones like in that photo series

Actually, one of the things I appreciate about this series is that there's a wider range of "attractiveness" on display than is typical in pin-ups of women. But it's also a more narrow range of masculine types than in other projects of this type that I've seen. Personally, I find this set of models probably the most consistently attractive among those projects.

On this viewing (as elizardbits notes, seen it before around here), I was struck by the notion of competence and sexiness. Seeing men with the signifiers of competence (tools) as pure decoration is unusual, which makes these images interesting to me. (It also perhaps explains why the classic "oopsie" pinups, who appear to be incompetent at even dressing themselves, appeal so little to me. Apparently I'm into competence, irrespective of gender.)
posted by EvaDestruction at 10:25 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


these pinups are also based on REALLY OLD female pinups. I haven't seen any made like this in the last few decades

I very much beg to differ. See for example this post at The Brigade and many others like it. Katy Perry has from early in her career gone for a retro look and has said that she wants to be "the pinup of the future". This style of photo is alive and well in American culture.
posted by Annie Savoy at 10:28 AM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


BTW I did search for this photo project before posting it, and it didn't show up in my search. This project and those like it were new to me but have apparently been discussed in various comment threads and MeFi, and I apologize for any repetition.
posted by Annie Savoy at 10:34 AM on July 31, 2013


whereas overall skeletal structure and musculature as well as social standing are markers for fathering suitability

Haaaaah, it's like my wife lost all her money at the blackjack table. SORRY, LADY.
posted by mintcake! at 10:43 AM on July 31, 2013 [11 favorites]


These are photos of dudes wallowing in irony. Irony is not sexy.
posted by blue t-shirt at 10:52 AM on July 31, 2013 [5 favorites]


I very much beg to differ. See for example this post at The Brigade and many others like it. Katy Perry has from early in her career gone for a retro look and has said that she wants to be "the pinup of the future". This style of photo is alive and well in American culture.

Sorry - I should have said that I haven't seen any non-ironic or self-conciously retro pinups like these. It's disingenuous to pretend that the current burlesque fad represents mainstream erotica.

The modern equivalent of the 1940s pinup would be centre folds, maybe underwear ads or teen starlets (though pinups were really PG rated porn). And the vast majority are very different in their presentation of women. Most don't show the oppsie-daisy, coquettish look - they tend to be more sexual, frankly more confident, even aggressive. The photos of the men look strange because they are both parodies and dated.
posted by jb at 10:55 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


Transmisogyny, and misogyny in general (and throw in some homophobia), is what bothers me about these--thanks, ShawnStruck. The very idea that a man would want, in any way, to be like a woman is held up as ridiculous. It's equivalent to the coconut-bra-and-grass-skirt-on-a-guy getup I've seen on literally every cruise I've been on. It's blackface with a twist, not just costuming, but costuming down.
posted by MrMoonPie at 10:56 AM on July 31, 2013 [11 favorites]


The Brigade images posted look more like actual male pinups I've seen in terms of facial expression than the parody male pinups.
posted by jb at 10:58 AM on July 31, 2013


MrMoonPie, I'm a transwoman and I would totally let the first mechanic (fourth image) slide beneath my undercarriage. If you know what I mean. Wink wink.
posted by egypturnash at 10:58 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


why is it sexual for a female to pose one way, and not sexual for a male?

How are people unable to comprehend that gender equality doesn't mean that men and women CANNOT BE DIFFERENT IN ANY WAY OMG?

Lame, like most things that think they are being really clever by flipping gender stereotypes on their head in an oblivious fashion.
posted by wrok at 11:11 AM on July 31, 2013 [9 favorites]


begging the questions

It does not beg any questions.
posted by eustacescrubb at 11:17 AM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


this is a narrow selection of poses taken from one specific genre of portraiture

Yes. That is the entire point of the series. They are photos that look like 50s pin-ups, a specific genre of portraiture. You have solved this thorny puzzle.
posted by elizardbits at 11:22 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Growing up I had lots of 'pin-ups' on my walls of barely-dressed men in slightly feminine/come hither poses: Jim Morrison, Lou Reed, Lux Interior, Jarvis Cocker...
posted by hellameangirl at 11:23 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


I can't believe no one has linked to Kate Beaton's Sexy Batman yet.
posted by Wavelet at 11:45 AM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


Why isn't there one with a man getting his trousers pulled down while he carries a bag of groceries with celery sticking out of the top


Seriously though what the hell is going on with Art Frahm and the celery.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:51 AM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Why they aren’t sexy to me personally:

1) They all look really uncomfortable. I don't mean uncomfortable in a gendered sense, but that they look like they're straining to hold the position they've been posed in. They look forced, in contrast to traditional pin-ups that are sexy because they convey fun and effortlessness.

2) Some of them look kind of hammy. As in, they look like they're trying to make a statement about gender, as opposed to making a sexy picture that's also a statement about gender issues/bias/roles.

3) Pin-ups were usually drawings that were based off of actual photographs or posed models. My opinion might change if I were to see illustrated versions of these photos.
posted by Shouraku at 12:01 PM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah it's worth echoing, that the original paintings were done by artists who were specialized in pinups and had careers spanning decades. Further, they almost exclusively worked with models who knew how to strike an almost effortless pose. And further to that, their paintings would refine the poses even further so that would look perfect. The pinups of that era were the pinnacle of that art style.

(There is a Taschen book covering the American pinup artists that is essential for people who want to study this form of art. And as an aside, pinup artists of the era were not exclusively men. There were and are excellent female pinup artists.)

What we're seeing here are just photos by amateurs kind of goofing around, almost in a cargo cult sort of fashion.

Another thing worth thinking about is that there are men who can hold such poses. I'm talking about ballet dancers.

I would be really curious to know what a current artist trained in the pinup style, like Olivia De Berardinis, could do with a model like dancer Rasta Thomas. He could hold a pinup pose and make it look effortless, and she could polish it up until it was perfect.

Now that would be something to see.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:27 PM on July 31, 2013 [4 favorites]


It should also be noted that the golden age of pin-ups was during WW2, when men were very much conditioned into being MEN, and you know, risk the own lives to save the country. These pinups were attractive to them because the 'promise' of the cute wifey who can barely make it through the day with out stubbing her toe or dropping the groceries it made them feel like protective, much more capable men I guess? Also this was a time that many women were joining the workforce, some in traditional male-dominated industries. So maybe the men felt emasculated by that and sought out the fantasy innocent, feeble girl.

As for putting men in these pinups, I DO think arched backs and pursed lips can be playfully sexy on guys. But I am not turned on by incompetence. The images portray a 'gosh, what are these tools for?' message. I don't find that sexy whether its a man or woman--but as a straight woman, I'm gonna find it more sexy if the image were of a guy fixing my car, lifting something heavy, or heck, killing a hornet or something instead of an image of a guy whining, whimpering or shrieking because its too hard/heavy/scary for him.

Why? Nature or nurture, I dunno.
posted by hellameangirl at 12:34 PM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


1) They all look really uncomfortable. I don't mean uncomfortable in a gendered sense, but that they look like they're straining to hold the position they've been posed in. They look forced, in contrast to traditional pin-ups that are sexy because they convey fun and effortlessness.

They may look fun and effortless but traditional pin-up poses, and poses in which women are often depicted, are uncomfortable to hold irl and in artistic rendering often incredibly unrealistic. The fact that you can see this clearly when it's men doing the posing means that the photoset is having the desired effect.
posted by elizardbits at 12:42 PM on July 31, 2013 [10 favorites]


The only one who is actually good-looking is the upside down fellow with the shovel. The others just look silly. These are not pin-up quality guys. I see the point the artist is making, but better models are needed.
posted by mermayd at 12:42 PM on July 31, 2013


What makes this so real is that it is so fake. Posing indicates a certain reliance on the object of the piece as the implicit agent of their own representation, even when there is nothing implicitly indicating the models had editorial agency or were involved in picking which photos to use and which to discard, etc. The emphasis placed on certain images for the purpose of evoking either stereotypical or non-stereotypical responses is determined by the curator rather than the actors.

Perhaps the only sense in which it is real is tautological, on second thought.
posted by flyinghamster at 12:55 PM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


The others just look silly.

This is the point.
posted by sweetkid at 12:58 PM on July 31, 2013


traditional pin-up poses, and poses in which women are often depicted, are uncomfortable to hold irl....The fact that you can see this clearly when it's men doing the posing means that the photoset is having the desired effect.

I don't think it's clear because it's men. It would, for example, be crystal clear if I tried doing any of this. It's clear because it's a load of amateurs who are not in any way invested in making it look natural or comfortable.
posted by jacalata at 12:58 PM on July 31, 2013 [3 favorites]


I can see how the point of a sort of badly-done cross-gender pin-up shoot might be to highlight how awkward pinups are if taken literally. I understand completely.

On the other hand, as someone who really doesn't care about gender at all except as different tasty flavours in the buffet of life, I'd really like to see dude pinups done well, because art, and also because ooh-la-la.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:24 PM on July 31, 2013 [5 favorites]


One assumption here is that pinup poses aren't weird when women strike them... But (like some others above) I've always thought that they are pretty odd, no matter who is striking them...

They seem notably less weird to me when women strike them...but I find it pretty hard to determine how much of that is just familiarity...

OTOH, there does seem to be something about such poses, I guess, that seems more feminine than masculine. If that's so, then there's the answer: most of us tend to find more masculine men* more attractive than more feminine men, and so on for all the obvious permutations. So if the poses are some kind of exaggeration of femininity (though that's not at all obvious to me), then it's hardly surprising that most people find it less alluring when men strike such poses.

If I might echo wrok and others, as a side-note: there's no reason to think that everything that's sexy when a male does it will be sexy when a female does it and vice-versa. The moral equality of the sexes doesn't commit us to anything like that conclusion. Similarly, the fact that lots of what seems sexy to most of us is strongly influenced by arbitrary social conventions doesn't mean that there's everything in this vicinity is perfectly arbitrary...

(* Within reason, that is. I hyper masculinity, like hyper femininity, is just weird.)
posted by Fists O'Fury at 1:34 PM on July 31, 2013


Typos in the last two lines, obviously.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 2:16 PM on July 31, 2013


Also sassy lumberjack is my favourite.

I've always disliked softcore porn. Titillation, etc. Not that I'm into Hustler, just, y'know, if you're going to throw down a challenge...

And none of this really attracts or repels me, that is, men or women. Probably because I associate it so much with someone trying to sell something to me. (as mentioned above - they look forced - though I find traditional pin-ups look forced as well)

But sassy lumberjack just pisses me off because there's no way in hell he should be working with cutting equipment with those kinds of shoes on.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:12 PM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


The others just look silly.

This is the point.


They all look silly, yes, parody.

There's much going on here, but ISTM, women in these poses objectifies women, and men in parody poses...illustrates how ridiculous women are when they pose in this manner. Neither is a positive for women

I'd like to see the same thing done with men actually posed in an artificial manner (backs arched, lips pursed, tensed legs, ankles straight and toes pointed) as objects. There's tension in male cheesecake, but it's more of a natural biceps flex than a forced position. Also needs shaved body hair, minimal clothing, deliberately neotenic features, elaborate hair, etc.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:24 PM on July 31, 2013


"I'd like to see the same thing done with men actually posed in an artificial manner (backs arched, lips pursed, tensed legs, ankles straight and toes pointed) as objects...Also needs shaved body hair, minimal clothing, deliberately neotenic features, elaborate hair, etc."

I'd say the long-haired guy in the The Mod Carousel "Blurred Lines" parody (the link is somewhere up thread) is a good example of this, and he's hella hot!
posted by hellameangirl at 4:34 PM on July 31, 2013


Is anyone else starting to get annoyed with open-ended, vaguely leading questions as artists' statements? I imagine by now anyone with a reasonable intellectual curiosity has thought about visual media portrayals of gender at some point, so I'd be a whole lot more intrigued to hear what the artist thinks about it than to be dumped with a bunch of open-ended questions that were probably provocative in the 80s.
posted by threeants at 9:13 PM on July 31, 2013 [9 favorites]



I'd like to see the same thing done with men actually posed in an artificial manner (backs arched, lips pursed, tensed legs, ankles straight and toes pointed) as objects. There's tension in male cheesecake, but it's more of a natural biceps flex than a forced position. Also needs shaved body hair, minimal clothing, deliberately neotenic features, elaborate hair, etc.


This exists already. It's called male modeling in high fashion photography.
posted by adso at 9:57 PM on July 31, 2013 [2 favorites]


Seeing men with the signifiers of competence (tools) as pure decoration is unusual

Really? Because I thought the cliche of using tools gratuitously as props was the one of the reasons the coal mining scene in Zoolander was so funny. The other joke of course, which really is the main theme of the movie, is that (spoiler alert) Derek Zoolander is not, in fact, competent.
posted by aubilenon at 11:00 PM on July 31, 2013 [1 favorite]


The photographer poses a question but then does nothing to attempt to answer it. The photos are unsexy because they make no attempt to be sexy.

Women in pinups don't wear clothes they might wear to clean the house, and they pose very specifically to highlight their physical attributes.

I'm assuming the serious intro to the photos is meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
posted by Vispa Teresa at 1:24 AM on August 1, 2013 [2 favorites]


My only guess is that the endurance of this art style has some root in biology.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:11 PM on July 31 [3 favorites +] [!]

I believe we're at the mercy of what our genes are telling us is a good bet for a strong offspring (i.e. continuation of the genetic line). Most traits we find attractive are the outward expression of genetic health - like seanmpuckett mentioned, child bearing hips, child nourishing breasts for women, dominance and strength for men, all within instinctive symmetrical guidelines (that's the genes again). And that's just body features (ex dominance). Face shape also fits in a "beauty guidelines mask" that is innate in us, also perfect skin, perfect hair, perfect teeth also demonstrate genetic health. I believe you can also explain baldness as an evolutionary strategy that worked for some genetic lines (as it showed you were an older male beyond your years). Make-up and beauty products also play a part in sexual attraction, fooling genes into seeing individuals as more genetically healthy, with rouge and lipstick mimicking the sexual signs of being "in season".

I think this is the way genes influence our choices (and genes control hormones too) and its weird to think of inter-person attractiveness just in a genetic sense, but it makes sense to me. So when women pose and accentuate the attributes that display genetic health in a way that also signals availability, it's weird to see a man also signal that availability (when genetically he should try to signal dominance) and pose himself in a way that flaunts attributes he just doesn't possess.
posted by guy72277 at 4:58 AM on August 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


Is anyone else starting to get annoyed with open-ended, vaguely leading questions as artists' statements?

I almost never read artists' statements anymore because they've largely become utterly fucking intolerable. If I absolutely feel I must do so, I will not do it until after I have looked over the work.
posted by elizardbits at 7:18 AM on August 1, 2013 [4 favorites]


Because WHITE SOCKS. Just no.
posted by Omnomnom at 7:46 AM on August 1, 2013


OTOH, there does seem to be something about such poses, I guess, that seems more feminine than masculine.

Gee I wonder what the difference is...

Erving Goffman and Gender Advertisements (slow loading PDF) are worth noting.

Summarized in this video: The Codes of Gender
posted by mrgrimm at 8:55 AM on August 2, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ad hominem: I think I have this figured out. These poses accentuate physical attributes that are not considered attracted when possessed by men. Although, if anyone is into man boobs that's cool too.
Pretty damn sure male asses are considered sexy when covered by tight shorts, at least according to the straight women and gay men I know.

Next theory?
posted by IAmBroom at 1:54 PM on August 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yeah, the chest and butt areas are sexy on both men and women, just in different ways.

I have to say I still think the difference has more to do with childishness than gender - gay male pin-ups can look yielding, submissive, and naive, but they don't remind me of little kids in the same way that some female pin-ups do. And of course, not all sexy female pin-ups look infantile: in fact, I'm pretty sure that the converse of this project, women imitating sexy male magazine poses, would look really, really hot, if it were even distinguishable from normal sexy female pin-ups.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:49 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]


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