As I thought
September 2, 2013 5:58 AM Subscribe
Despite what you heard as a kid, babies really do come from a mummy's tummy.
Here's a report from the mother's fertility specialist, Associate Professor Dr Kate Stern, and a report from Australia's 60 Minutes describing the implantation in more detail.
Here's a report from the mother's fertility specialist, Associate Professor Dr Kate Stern, and a report from Australia's 60 Minutes describing the implantation in more detail.
The thing that worries me about this is, is it really a good thing for a pregnant woman to be taking anti-rejection drugs? What will that do to the baby?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:04 AM on September 2, 2013
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:04 AM on September 2, 2013
Chocolate pickle I would personally bet that yes it will have an affects, in the sense that everything will have an effects. Life is a huge balancing act of various factors causing various reactions and the body addressing that in various ways with various short and long term effects.
While I agree that population control is important, and as an adoptee can appreciate adoption is good for children who need it, I also know what it's like to lose a child to adoption (for me) and don't see adoption as the rosy solution some people to infertility.
Will IVF have side affects or be less ideal? I would say probably so. It's not ideal to use formula or to be in day care 50 hours a week for a 6 week old baby.
Sometimes we have to work within the circumstances we have and for people who want to create children it can be a very powerful and meaningful experience.
My adoptive parents were never able to conceive and I am not a replacement for the experience they would have had creating a child that truly came from within them, shared their ancestral heritage and traits and memories. I can see with my son, and my daughter (incidentally placed for adoption and not raised by me so our similarities are very genetic)- how much it means to watch your own genetic children blossom into people.
It's a unique experience, while not desired or meaningful to all, I deeply respect the art of helping every person who desires to create children to be able to have the health to do so. I think as the technology and research improves we'll be able to go beyond IVF and prevent the health problems that make it difficult for many women to conceive, by understanding the biological and environmental factors that work together to create poor health.
I personally prefer IVF that uses same parent sperm and egg (when possible) because it can preserve the experience of allowing not only the parents but also the CHILD to experience a family with shared genetic experiences and similarities.
Ultimately, the details matter a great deal during any conception, pregnancy, early childhood environment- but considering that- many humans are literally surviving hell- not without scars, and many die and become disabled, pr have their personality and will altered in order to endure, but they endure.
What I mean to say is, I wish that parents would all parent with respect for the fact that rearing environments matter, it's not always straightforward and keeping up with research and theory about child development and human health is useful, but we can't expect humans to only birth children in perfect circumstances- this can have a negative effect as well because it disregards the depths from which our species desires to continue which is a very life affirming good thing that matters to many people. I think the goal is to make it possible for families to create children when they want to, to be educated about population issues, and healthy parenting, and also to be given resources to create and parent their children at the time that works for them. This includes both preventing or terminating unwanted pregnancies and the resources to create and parent wanted children. I think every person who wants should be able to create one or two children and that would address population issues quite well. If such children are born in difficult circumstances we provide resources to help them have good lives.
I recognize this conversation is going slow and I wonder if it's because people aren't sure how to approach such a deeply sensitive but difficult topic- and since I've spent many years interacting with people on many sides of the infertility and solutions (including heavy and difficult debates) just thought I would share some of that. This is a very important topic and I think people are right to be concerned how children will be affected.
Some people coping with infertility, in their own words, are sometimes going through a special kind of trauma that overtakes them and makes it EXTREMELY hard to think about long term implications of the solutions they are grasping and we need better infrastructure to think through these issues as a society so we can provide ethical guidance and sane policies about how to handle the complicated issues that IVF/surrogacy/egg and sperm donation and more bring up. And that includes the voices of the children who grow up and sometimes do feel affected, or may be at risk of specific physical or mental health issues as a result of drugs or techniques used to help them be conceived.
posted by xarnop at 7:53 AM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
While I agree that population control is important, and as an adoptee can appreciate adoption is good for children who need it, I also know what it's like to lose a child to adoption (for me) and don't see adoption as the rosy solution some people to infertility.
Will IVF have side affects or be less ideal? I would say probably so. It's not ideal to use formula or to be in day care 50 hours a week for a 6 week old baby.
Sometimes we have to work within the circumstances we have and for people who want to create children it can be a very powerful and meaningful experience.
My adoptive parents were never able to conceive and I am not a replacement for the experience they would have had creating a child that truly came from within them, shared their ancestral heritage and traits and memories. I can see with my son, and my daughter (incidentally placed for adoption and not raised by me so our similarities are very genetic)- how much it means to watch your own genetic children blossom into people.
It's a unique experience, while not desired or meaningful to all, I deeply respect the art of helping every person who desires to create children to be able to have the health to do so. I think as the technology and research improves we'll be able to go beyond IVF and prevent the health problems that make it difficult for many women to conceive, by understanding the biological and environmental factors that work together to create poor health.
I personally prefer IVF that uses same parent sperm and egg (when possible) because it can preserve the experience of allowing not only the parents but also the CHILD to experience a family with shared genetic experiences and similarities.
Ultimately, the details matter a great deal during any conception, pregnancy, early childhood environment- but considering that- many humans are literally surviving hell- not without scars, and many die and become disabled, pr have their personality and will altered in order to endure, but they endure.
What I mean to say is, I wish that parents would all parent with respect for the fact that rearing environments matter, it's not always straightforward and keeping up with research and theory about child development and human health is useful, but we can't expect humans to only birth children in perfect circumstances- this can have a negative effect as well because it disregards the depths from which our species desires to continue which is a very life affirming good thing that matters to many people. I think the goal is to make it possible for families to create children when they want to, to be educated about population issues, and healthy parenting, and also to be given resources to create and parent their children at the time that works for them. This includes both preventing or terminating unwanted pregnancies and the resources to create and parent wanted children. I think every person who wants should be able to create one or two children and that would address population issues quite well. If such children are born in difficult circumstances we provide resources to help them have good lives.
I recognize this conversation is going slow and I wonder if it's because people aren't sure how to approach such a deeply sensitive but difficult topic- and since I've spent many years interacting with people on many sides of the infertility and solutions (including heavy and difficult debates) just thought I would share some of that. This is a very important topic and I think people are right to be concerned how children will be affected.
Some people coping with infertility, in their own words, are sometimes going through a special kind of trauma that overtakes them and makes it EXTREMELY hard to think about long term implications of the solutions they are grasping and we need better infrastructure to think through these issues as a society so we can provide ethical guidance and sane policies about how to handle the complicated issues that IVF/surrogacy/egg and sperm donation and more bring up. And that includes the voices of the children who grow up and sometimes do feel affected, or may be at risk of specific physical or mental health issues as a result of drugs or techniques used to help them be conceived.
posted by xarnop at 7:53 AM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
This brought a question to mind, and it's probably obviously not the case or else it would have been floated in the pop-sci article whether it was possible or not.
If a male-bodied person got an implant of ovarian tissue, took the drugs and took the hormones, would it be possible for a fetus to gestate inside the abdomen?
posted by Countess Elena at 9:05 AM on September 2, 2013
If a male-bodied person got an implant of ovarian tissue, took the drugs and took the hormones, would it be possible for a fetus to gestate inside the abdomen?
posted by Countess Elena at 9:05 AM on September 2, 2013
(Also, yes, I also thought this might have to do with actual Egyptian mummies. I thought it would be that some lunatic was claiming to have created a viable egg with ancient DNA extracted from one. This story is more interesting, though.)
posted by Countess Elena at 9:07 AM on September 2, 2013
posted by Countess Elena at 9:07 AM on September 2, 2013
[Warning, auto-playing video on the second link.] [*grumbles at proliferation of auto-playing video on news websites*]
posted by jferg at 9:26 AM on September 2, 2013
posted by jferg at 9:26 AM on September 2, 2013
I find this kind of desperation really puzzling.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 9:27 AM on September 2, 2013
posted by jeff-o-matic at 9:27 AM on September 2, 2013
I find this kind of desperation really puzzling.
Well, puzzle no more. Some people really want kids, and adoption is no simpler an option.
posted by MuffinMan at 10:10 AM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, puzzle no more. Some people really want kids, and adoption is no simpler an option.
posted by MuffinMan at 10:10 AM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
No simpler than what's described in the article?? I know two different gay couples who have each adopted two kids.
Come on.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:27 AM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Come on.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:27 AM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
jeff-o-matic, yeah, no simpler an option. What's described in the article is incredibly difficult, sure, but so is adoption for many people. It's complex, it's expensive, it's anything but guaranteed; you don't just walk down to the pound and pick up a baby. And that's saying nothing of the ethical considerations, which are both complicated and murky.
Adoption can be a great and wonderful thing, and it has helped many wonderful families come together. But it's not a cure for infertility, and there are many rational reasons to pursue other ways of having children. Slagging people off as "desperate" is ignorant and unfair.
posted by KathrynT at 11:03 AM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Adoption can be a great and wonderful thing, and it has helped many wonderful families come together. But it's not a cure for infertility, and there are many rational reasons to pursue other ways of having children. Slagging people off as "desperate" is ignorant and unfair.
posted by KathrynT at 11:03 AM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
OK, I'll come on.
Firstly, the couple aren't in the US. They're in Australia. The pool of potential adoptive children may be entirely different in Australia. The process for adoption may be stricter or more arduous. There is no guarantee when entering the adoption process you will end up adopting.
Since we now have, thankfully, different views now on the status of unwed mothers, in lots of countries the pool of children available to be adopted has changed. They often aren't handed over at birth by healthy mothers. Many will be born of mothers who drank, smoked or took drugs through pregnancy. Many will have been neglected or abused enough for them to be taken away from their parents. Often children will be unlucky enough to have both of these issues. In short, just because you get to adopt them it is not the end of the process, but the start of the complexity. There's a popular view that adoption is both easy and there is a ready pool of bonny babies out there waiting for parents. The myth feeds dumbass statements like "adoption is easy."
Lots of people do adopt, of course. But that doesn't mean it is easy. People climb mountains, run marathons and learn calculus.
The IVF process described in the article is complex and innovative, but so was IVF when it was invented. This woman's case is relatively rare - she's had healthy ovarian tissues removed because she's about to undergo treatment for cancer. The graft is the new part. I doubt it is surgically rocket science. The complexity, I suspect, is managing the woman's medication so that the graft will take and she has the right hormonal balance to achieve pregnancy.
posted by MuffinMan at 11:09 AM on September 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
Firstly, the couple aren't in the US. They're in Australia. The pool of potential adoptive children may be entirely different in Australia. The process for adoption may be stricter or more arduous. There is no guarantee when entering the adoption process you will end up adopting.
Since we now have, thankfully, different views now on the status of unwed mothers, in lots of countries the pool of children available to be adopted has changed. They often aren't handed over at birth by healthy mothers. Many will be born of mothers who drank, smoked or took drugs through pregnancy. Many will have been neglected or abused enough for them to be taken away from their parents. Often children will be unlucky enough to have both of these issues. In short, just because you get to adopt them it is not the end of the process, but the start of the complexity. There's a popular view that adoption is both easy and there is a ready pool of bonny babies out there waiting for parents. The myth feeds dumbass statements like "adoption is easy."
Lots of people do adopt, of course. But that doesn't mean it is easy. People climb mountains, run marathons and learn calculus.
The IVF process described in the article is complex and innovative, but so was IVF when it was invented. This woman's case is relatively rare - she's had healthy ovarian tissues removed because she's about to undergo treatment for cancer. The graft is the new part. I doubt it is surgically rocket science. The complexity, I suspect, is managing the woman's medication so that the graft will take and she has the right hormonal balance to achieve pregnancy.
posted by MuffinMan at 11:09 AM on September 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
First, I never said adoption is easy. I'm saying with some determination, you can go through a few years of paper work and red tape and expense and skip expensive and potentially dangerous medical procedures. You can adopt from other countries too.
And yes, resorting to an extremely costly, potentially dangerous procedure just to have a kid is an act of desperation. Desperate people do desperate things. Determined people do things that require determination, like climbing mountains, etc.
I'm not slagging anyone, just saying this behavior strikes me as desperate.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 11:32 AM on September 2, 2013
And yes, resorting to an extremely costly, potentially dangerous procedure just to have a kid is an act of desperation. Desperate people do desperate things. Determined people do things that require determination, like climbing mountains, etc.
I'm not slagging anyone, just saying this behavior strikes me as desperate.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 11:32 AM on September 2, 2013
Okay, I read the first two articles, and no one was taking anti-rejection drugs because the ovarian tissue was her own, frozen earlier. So besides the odd placement of the ovarian tissue, this is bog-standard IVF, been around for years. Not male-pregnant hand wavery. Jeez. Some of you seem to really have something against people with fertility problems and at the same time have trouble reading the articles.
posted by rikschell at 11:50 AM on September 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 11:50 AM on September 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
There is no domestic adoption to speak of in Australia. International adoption is ethically
fraught and very expensive, and the process typically takes years. Australia has been at the forefront of infertility treatment since the beginning, in part because of the tremendous challenges of adoption here.
posted by gingerest at 2:20 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
fraught and very expensive, and the process typically takes years. Australia has been at the forefront of infertility treatment since the beginning, in part because of the tremendous challenges of adoption here.
posted by gingerest at 2:20 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is excellent news. I hope everything goes well during the pregnancy.
"Waiting lists for adoption within Australia are frequently 10+ years long and adopting internationally generally costs between 20-30k per child - putting it out of reach for many - not to mention the waiting also takes between 4-10 years." - Taken from the comments of the second article.
Sounds like a rock and a hard place to me.
posted by Solomon at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Waiting lists for adoption within Australia are frequently 10+ years long and adopting internationally generally costs between 20-30k per child - putting it out of reach for many - not to mention the waiting also takes between 4-10 years." - Taken from the comments of the second article.
Sounds like a rock and a hard place to me.
posted by Solomon at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm saying with some determination, you can go through a few years of paper work and red tape and expense and skip expensive and potentially dangerous medical procedures.
You are quite uninformed about adoption in Australia.
posted by KathrynT at 3:50 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
You are quite uninformed about adoption in Australia.
posted by KathrynT at 3:50 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, this procedure is currently being developed as an option for girls and women whose cancer or its treatment (including childhood cancer treatment) is expected to damage or destroy their ovarian function. There are reasons other than fertility to want to establish or re-establish ovarian function (age-appropriate bone deposition, for example.)
Some cancer survivors would look at you and say, "Yes, well, I lost the sense that expensive and potentially dangerous medical procedures were particularly offputting quite some time ago. Cancer has taken quite enough of my life without it taking my ability to have kids, thank you, and I appreciate having the option."
posted by gingerest at 7:23 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Some cancer survivors would look at you and say, "Yes, well, I lost the sense that expensive and potentially dangerous medical procedures were particularly offputting quite some time ago. Cancer has taken quite enough of my life without it taking my ability to have kids, thank you, and I appreciate having the option."
posted by gingerest at 7:23 PM on September 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
First, I never said adoption is easy. I'm saying with some determination, you can go through a few years of paper work and red tape and expense and skip expensive and potentially dangerous medical procedures. You can adopt from other countries too.
And yes, resorting to an extremely costly, potentially dangerous procedure just to have a kid is an act of desperation. Desperate people do desperate things. Determined people do things that require determination, like climbing mountains, etc.
I'm not slagging anyone, just saying this behavior strikes me as desperate.
Actually, determination does not determine whether or not you are able to adopt in ANY country, so your first assertion is incorrect on many levels and there are thousands of couples from all walks of life and from all continents who have been waiting for more than a "few" years to adopt because adoption does not work the way you think it does.
What have you done lately that qualifies as desperate but in a good way since you offer your opinion on such matters so freely?
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:08 PM on September 2, 2013
And yes, resorting to an extremely costly, potentially dangerous procedure just to have a kid is an act of desperation. Desperate people do desperate things. Determined people do things that require determination, like climbing mountains, etc.
I'm not slagging anyone, just saying this behavior strikes me as desperate.
Actually, determination does not determine whether or not you are able to adopt in ANY country, so your first assertion is incorrect on many levels and there are thousands of couples from all walks of life and from all continents who have been waiting for more than a "few" years to adopt because adoption does not work the way you think it does.
What have you done lately that qualifies as desperate but in a good way since you offer your opinion on such matters so freely?
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 8:08 PM on September 2, 2013
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