Science! For the Win.
October 25, 2013 11:48 AM Subscribe
Eleven year-old Floridian Peyton Robertson figured out how to make a better sandbag: leave out the sand. After witnessing the damage hurricane Sandy caused across the nation, the concerned middle-schooler sought a way to help mitigate flood damage caused by the storms. Peyton fills his bags with a salt and polymer mixture which expands when wet. The bags also use an unique center-locking mechanism, allowing them to overlap for an even stronger flood barrier.
[Note: not in America? Video won't play for you? Try this link instead.]
His design earned him the win in The Discovery Education 3M Young Scientist Challenge, $25000 and the title of "2013's Young Scientist of the Year".
Other notable finalists:
Brooke Martin's invention, ICUPooch, lets traveling pet owners video chat with their pets and even dispense pet treats while they are away.
Daniel Culver, a Columbine student, designed a cookstove with decreased CO2 emissions so you can cook in your home without getting sick.
All the finalists.
The contest, held annually, is open to American middle-school students, and has its roots in the "sticky bookmark" inspiration which led to the creation of the original Post-It Note:
In the 1960s, 3M Scientist Spence Silver had developed an adhesive that was strong enough to stick to surfaces, but could be easily removed without residue. What could the world do with something like this? 3M Researcher Art Fry had an idea. While in church, he noticed the bookmarks in his hymnal kept falling out. If only there was a way to keep them in place with something that would stick without damaging the page... he connected with his colleague to explore creative synergy between technology and idea.
2012 Winners.
Know a budding scientist? Registration for next year's contest begin in December; sign up for email alerts here.
His design earned him the win in The Discovery Education 3M Young Scientist Challenge, $25000 and the title of "2013's Young Scientist of the Year".
Other notable finalists:
Brooke Martin's invention, ICUPooch, lets traveling pet owners video chat with their pets and even dispense pet treats while they are away.
Daniel Culver, a Columbine student, designed a cookstove with decreased CO2 emissions so you can cook in your home without getting sick.
All the finalists.
The contest, held annually, is open to American middle-school students, and has its roots in the "sticky bookmark" inspiration which led to the creation of the original Post-It Note:
In the 1960s, 3M Scientist Spence Silver had developed an adhesive that was strong enough to stick to surfaces, but could be easily removed without residue. What could the world do with something like this? 3M Researcher Art Fry had an idea. While in church, he noticed the bookmarks in his hymnal kept falling out. If only there was a way to keep them in place with something that would stick without damaging the page... he connected with his colleague to explore creative synergy between technology and idea.
2012 Winners.
Know a budding scientist? Registration for next year's contest begin in December; sign up for email alerts here.
Oh my god that kid is adorable.
posted by jason_steakums at 11:54 AM on October 25, 2013
posted by jason_steakums at 11:54 AM on October 25, 2013
Peyton fills his bags with a salt and polymer mixture which expands when wet.
Fail. Sand is plentiful, non-toxic, locally available near rivers, and free. And when you're done you just pour out the sand. What do you do with tons of salt and polymer after you're done? Sell it back to 3M?
posted by three blind mice at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2013 [7 favorites]
Fail. Sand is plentiful, non-toxic, locally available near rivers, and free. And when you're done you just pour out the sand. What do you do with tons of salt and polymer after you're done? Sell it back to 3M?
posted by three blind mice at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2013 [7 favorites]
What happens to the salt/polymer mixture that escapes from a torn or opened bag; in particular, what effect does it have on storm drains?
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:04 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 12:04 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
A bit more on Payton at the Sun Sentinel, which notes that "once a storm has passed, the bags can be reused after their water evaporates and they return to their lighter weight" (down from 30 pounds to 4 pounds).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:04 PM on October 25, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 12:04 PM on October 25, 2013 [11 favorites]
Well, it does get in everything.
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:08 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sand is plentiful, non-toxic, locally available near rivers, and free.
I don't know where you're from, but I grew up a 15 minute drive from the beach in Georgia. You weren't allowed to remove sand from anywhere within visible distance of the water (for those playing along at home, that is where the sand lives). Not even a little bit of sand for your own personal use. If you wanted sand, you had to go and buy bags of sand.
I do not know ANYTHING about the actual chain of custody for sandbags for emergency use, but I would bet that the vast majority of sand bags are filled with purchased sand. You don't just get to go down with a shovel and erode the riverbank. It just doesn't work like that.
The question is what is the difference in cost between the polymer and the cost of the sand plus the cost to move the comparatively much heavier and larger bags of sand.
posted by phunniemee at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2013 [16 favorites]
I don't know where you're from, but I grew up a 15 minute drive from the beach in Georgia. You weren't allowed to remove sand from anywhere within visible distance of the water (for those playing along at home, that is where the sand lives). Not even a little bit of sand for your own personal use. If you wanted sand, you had to go and buy bags of sand.
I do not know ANYTHING about the actual chain of custody for sandbags for emergency use, but I would bet that the vast majority of sand bags are filled with purchased sand. You don't just get to go down with a shovel and erode the riverbank. It just doesn't work like that.
The question is what is the difference in cost between the polymer and the cost of the sand plus the cost to move the comparatively much heavier and larger bags of sand.
posted by phunniemee at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2013 [16 favorites]
And here's a bit more from the Sun Sentinel, noting Peyton's past inventions (retractable training wheels for his sisters' bikes, and a "temperature-controlled container for golf balls to stabilize playing performance in cold weather."
Here's the 3M mentors. This page notes that
posted by filthy light thief at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2013
Here's the 3M mentors. This page notes that
The 10 finalists will be paired with 3M scientists to complete a summer assignment having to do with innovation. Together they will work virtually through pre-assigned objectives with resources and support provided by Discovery Education and 3M.The other finalists also had mentors to assist them. But I haven't found anything on the polymer used in these bags.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2013
How long does it take the bags to dry out? Can a barrier of them be erected 12 hours before a storm arrives? 24 hours? 48 hours?
Once they're in place and holding back floodwaters, do they have to be continually wetted and maintained, or is the polymer permeable enough to stay thoroughly soaked?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Once they're in place and holding back floodwaters, do they have to be continually wetted and maintained, or is the polymer permeable enough to stay thoroughly soaked?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:10 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fail.
Yeah, look at that kid and his workable if not entirely practical invention. Go back to watching Pokemon and quit trying to do something for society. I grade this as EPIC FAIL.
posted by griphus at 12:11 PM on October 25, 2013 [77 favorites]
Yeah, look at that kid and his workable if not entirely practical invention. Go back to watching Pokemon and quit trying to do something for society. I grade this as EPIC FAIL.
posted by griphus at 12:11 PM on October 25, 2013 [77 favorites]
"Fail"? Jeez, the kid's eleven. How about the tiniest bit of "Huh, that's neat, despite some potential problems"?
posted by Etrigan at 12:11 PM on October 25, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 12:11 PM on October 25, 2013 [14 favorites]
To be fair, this year's Pokemon is supposed to be really good.
posted by kmz at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by kmz at 12:12 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Fail"? Jeez, the kid's eleven. How about the tiniest bit of "Huh, that's neat, despite some potential problems"?
Welcome to Metafilter. Here's your (sand) shovel.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2013 [10 favorites]
Welcome to Metafilter. Here's your (sand) shovel.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2013 [10 favorites]
Isn't it easier and cheaper to put kids in the bags? They are totally biodegradable too!
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2013 [9 favorites]
You know, not all floods are one-off events and where they're not then people keep sandbags handy, so having bags around that shrink down for local storage could be quite useful.
posted by biffa at 12:14 PM on October 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by biffa at 12:14 PM on October 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'm pretty sure you don't transport and store filled sandbags. You transport and store empty sandbags and then fill them with sand, dirt, or whatever is available as needed.
posted by Justinian at 12:17 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 12:17 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
The mirror link seems to be broken. The orignal video plays fine here in NL, though.
posted by HFSH at 12:22 PM on October 25, 2013
posted by HFSH at 12:22 PM on October 25, 2013
The sand has to be brought in as well, Justinian. Generally.
posted by notyou at 12:23 PM on October 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by notyou at 12:23 PM on October 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
What do you do with tons of salt and polymer after you're done? Sell it back to 3M?
He covered that. You dry the bags out and reuse it in the next flood.
You transport and store empty sandbags and then fill them with sand, dirt, or whatever is available as needed.
What if you don't live near sand?
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 12:24 PM on October 25, 2013
He covered that. You dry the bags out and reuse it in the next flood.
You transport and store empty sandbags and then fill them with sand, dirt, or whatever is available as needed.
What if you don't live near sand?
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 12:24 PM on October 25, 2013
hades: Sounds familiar. I guess it addresses the "freshwater only" aspect of those, though.
From the Amazon product page for the StormTec Stormbags, here are some general specs:
posted by filthy light thief at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
From the Amazon product page for the StormTec Stormbags, here are some general specs:
- Fully hydrates in just over 3 mines
- Certified by Homeland Security and under the AEL list for federal government use
- Meets military specification standards
- Completely green product hydrated polymer fill can be discarded in garden soil or lawn as a water retention aid
posted by filthy light thief at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
Fail. Sand is plentiful, non-toxic, locally available near rivers, and free. And when you're done you just pour out the sand. What do you do with tons of salt and polymer after you're done? Sell it back to 3M?
Well, good news, then! Super-absorbent polymers aren't toxic (or don't have to be, assuming they are chosen and deployed correctly). (They're currently used in diapers and wound dressings. Sinister.) The bag as a whole could become toxic if the floodwaters are themselves toxic, but that's an issue with sand already. (Absorbents are pretty good at sucking up contamination, which is why many kinds of absorbent materials are used in environmental remediation -- everything from clays to super-absorbent polymers.)
And speaking of environmental impacts, in my part of the country, digging up sand from rivers isn't something you can get away with doing without going through the Conservation Commission to state why you plan on impacting local wetlands.
The video points out that these can be dried (which shrinks them down to size) and reused.
The storm drain thing is a potential issue, though.
posted by pie ninja at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2013 [14 favorites]
Well, good news, then! Super-absorbent polymers aren't toxic (or don't have to be, assuming they are chosen and deployed correctly). (They're currently used in diapers and wound dressings. Sinister.) The bag as a whole could become toxic if the floodwaters are themselves toxic, but that's an issue with sand already. (Absorbents are pretty good at sucking up contamination, which is why many kinds of absorbent materials are used in environmental remediation -- everything from clays to super-absorbent polymers.)
And speaking of environmental impacts, in my part of the country, digging up sand from rivers isn't something you can get away with doing without going through the Conservation Commission to state why you plan on impacting local wetlands.
The video points out that these can be dried (which shrinks them down to size) and reused.
The storm drain thing is a potential issue, though.
posted by pie ninja at 12:25 PM on October 25, 2013 [14 favorites]
Though in almost any substantial flood you're probably going to have to send crews to clean out storm drains afterwards anyways.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:28 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 12:28 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, look at that kid and his workable if not entirely practical invention. Go back to watching Pokemon and quit trying to do something for society. I grade this as EPIC FAIL.
Failure, Mr. Jones, is hardly very original.
posted by Slap*Happy at 12:53 PM on October 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
Failure, Mr. Jones, is hardly very original.
posted by Slap*Happy at 12:53 PM on October 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
Only concern I have about the re-usability is how long/how many reuses does it take for all the sale to leach out, rendering it ineffective?
posted by Samizdata at 12:55 PM on October 25, 2013
posted by Samizdata at 12:55 PM on October 25, 2013
What if you don't live near sand?
Even if you do live near sand, you don't just start digging up the beach. You dig up the big pile of sand that a truck just dumped next to where you're standing with your shovel.
They're currently used in diapers and wound dressing
Most people would be pretty upset if you dumped a hundred thousand diapers or wound dressings into your riverine habitat.
posted by Fnarf at 12:57 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
Even if you do live near sand, you don't just start digging up the beach. You dig up the big pile of sand that a truck just dumped next to where you're standing with your shovel.
They're currently used in diapers and wound dressing
Most people would be pretty upset if you dumped a hundred thousand diapers or wound dressings into your riverine habitat.
posted by Fnarf at 12:57 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yeah, look at that kid and his workable if not entirely practical invention. Go back to watching Pokemon and quit trying to do something for society. I grade this as EPIC FAIL.
While we should always encourage children to develop their creativity and ingenuity, I don't think it's necessarily bad to take his invention with...a grain of salt.
I also wonder why does the news always report on this kind of story? Is it because it generates views and kind of reinforces a public narrative about a "wunderkind" creating an awesome invention all by himself, children being pure creativity, and/or children aren't hindered by adult bureaucracy/limits? I mean, with Ender's Game so close to release, I guess I'm thinking about this a bit more than usual.
And maybe I'm also a bit bitter that my parents would bludgeon me with this kind of news story when I was younger, "See? Why couldn't you invent something like this kid instead of just having fun?"
posted by FJT at 1:00 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
While we should always encourage children to develop their creativity and ingenuity, I don't think it's necessarily bad to take his invention with...a grain of salt.
I also wonder why does the news always report on this kind of story? Is it because it generates views and kind of reinforces a public narrative about a "wunderkind" creating an awesome invention all by himself, children being pure creativity, and/or children aren't hindered by adult bureaucracy/limits? I mean, with Ender's Game so close to release, I guess I'm thinking about this a bit more than usual.
And maybe I'm also a bit bitter that my parents would bludgeon me with this kind of news story when I was younger, "See? Why couldn't you invent something like this kid instead of just having fun?"
posted by FJT at 1:00 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fnarf: "What if you don't live near sand?
Even if you do live near sand, you don't just start digging up the beach. You dig up the big pile of sand that a truck just dumped next to where you're standing with your shovel.
They're currently used in diapers and wound dressing
Most people would be pretty upset if you dumped a hundred thousand diapers or wound dressings into your riverine habitat."
Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh....
Why do people wait untin the END of a thread to mention these things?
posted by Samizdata at 1:00 PM on October 25, 2013
Even if you do live near sand, you don't just start digging up the beach. You dig up the big pile of sand that a truck just dumped next to where you're standing with your shovel.
They're currently used in diapers and wound dressing
Most people would be pretty upset if you dumped a hundred thousand diapers or wound dressings into your riverine habitat."
Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh....
Why do people wait untin the END of a thread to mention these things?
posted by Samizdata at 1:00 PM on October 25, 2013
I don't get what this kid "invented." Sandless sandbags filled with polymers have been around for a while.
posted by sixpack at 1:02 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by sixpack at 1:02 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh.
Mr Young Science Hero iterated on a previous invention (the Stormtec bags noted above) for use in salt water plus the addition of 3m adhesive strips for the interlock mechanism.
Well that's still an impressive achievement.
When I was 11 I iterated on a previous invention, too.
The original was a game called "Pursey Pursey" in which you dump dog shit into an old purse and set that in the middle of the street and watch as drivers stop to retrieve the lost handbag, drive on for a few yards, stop again and hurl the purse back out the window.
My improvement was to substitute my own shit for the dog's.
posted by notyou at 1:02 PM on October 25, 2013 [38 favorites]
Mr Young Science Hero iterated on a previous invention (the Stormtec bags noted above) for use in salt water plus the addition of 3m adhesive strips for the interlock mechanism.
Well that's still an impressive achievement.
When I was 11 I iterated on a previous invention, too.
The original was a game called "Pursey Pursey" in which you dump dog shit into an old purse and set that in the middle of the street and watch as drivers stop to retrieve the lost handbag, drive on for a few yards, stop again and hurl the purse back out the window.
My improvement was to substitute my own shit for the dog's.
posted by notyou at 1:02 PM on October 25, 2013 [38 favorites]
I don't get what this kid "invented." Sandless sandbags filled with polymers have been around for a while.
Yeah, but his haveelectrolytes salt that make the bags heavier than sea water so they don't float away when dealing with salt water flooding.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 1:04 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but his have
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 1:04 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Samizdata: "Why do people wait untin the END of a thread to mention these things?"
Why do you find every lost thing in the last place you look? Why didn't you just look there first? Goofball.
posted by wierdo at 1:07 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Why do you find every lost thing in the last place you look? Why didn't you just look there first? Goofball.
posted by wierdo at 1:07 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
I am pretty sure that the sand bags used in flood control are a problem to remove later: they can be full of nasty mess and potential contaminants like fuel, sewage, and god-knows-what.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:07 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
-Sand that has been contaminated by oil-based or fuel products, hazardous chemicals, salt, sewage or septic waste can cause impacts on public health and the environment if they are not handled properly.http://wyohomelandsecurity.state.wy.us/Library/Helpful_Hints_Sandbag_Disposal.pdf
- Sand that came in contact with flood waters may contain more bacteria than normal soil.
...
- Empty or full sandbags or sand/dirt which has come into contact with chemicals, wastes, fuel, oil, salt, sewage or septic tank waste could negatively impact the environment and must be disposed of at a municipal landfill or other approved facility.
- Call your local landfill disposal site for detailed disposal instructions
...
- Never use the sand from sandbags to fill children’s sandboxes or playgrounds, as it is not high-quality sand and the sandbags may have been contaminated.
- Never dispose of sand in a wetland, flood plain, waterway or any other sensitive area.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:07 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Plus also, go, kid!
posted by wenestvedt at 1:08 PM on October 25, 2013
posted by wenestvedt at 1:08 PM on October 25, 2013
Most people would be pretty upset if you dumped a hundred thousand diapers or wound dressings into your riverine habitat.
Which is why the material should be properly contained, as noted. Other things you may not want in a sensitive wetland: flood debris, toxic materials from gas stations, large amounts of sand, etc, etc.
Absorbent materials are already used in riverine environments for environmental cleanups. Absorbent polymers that selectively contain petroleum are one of the current cutting-edge areas in this technology. These materials just need to be used appropriately, which is true of any material used in environmental remediation, flood control, or any other engineering project.
tl;dr: Hurrah for this kid! We need more like him.
posted by pie ninja at 1:18 PM on October 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
Which is why the material should be properly contained, as noted. Other things you may not want in a sensitive wetland: flood debris, toxic materials from gas stations, large amounts of sand, etc, etc.
Absorbent materials are already used in riverine environments for environmental cleanups. Absorbent polymers that selectively contain petroleum are one of the current cutting-edge areas in this technology. These materials just need to be used appropriately, which is true of any material used in environmental remediation, flood control, or any other engineering project.
tl;dr: Hurrah for this kid! We need more like him.
posted by pie ninja at 1:18 PM on October 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
I was coming in here to say that I don't know whether to give that kid some serious nerd respeck knuckles or a hug worthy of the world's most adorable 11-year-old. But some of the commenters here need hugs far more badly than he does.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:19 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by middleclasstool at 1:19 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
The original was a game called "Pursey Pursey" in which you dump dog shit into an old purse and set that in the middle of the street and watch as drivers stop to retrieve the lost handbag, drive on for a few yards, stop again and hurl the purse back out the window.
My improvement was to substitute my own shit for the dog's.
must purse be leather or will tote bag suffice please advise
posted by Think_Long at 1:23 PM on October 25, 2013 [6 favorites]
My improvement was to substitute my own shit for the dog's.
must purse be leather or will tote bag suffice please advise
posted by Think_Long at 1:23 PM on October 25, 2013 [6 favorites]
This child should be punished. Impudence, is what I call it.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 1:38 PM on October 25, 2013
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 1:38 PM on October 25, 2013
When I was 11 I iterated on a previous invention, too.
When I was 11 I thought I was going pretty good when I collected a bunch of bottlecaps from the neighborhood and sorted them into little piles. I think I could probably tie my shoes by then, but not well.
posted by Fnarf at 1:42 PM on October 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
When I was 11 I thought I was going pretty good when I collected a bunch of bottlecaps from the neighborhood and sorted them into little piles. I think I could probably tie my shoes by then, but not well.
posted by Fnarf at 1:42 PM on October 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
Notyou's comment is fantastic. 3M, TED talks, and great 'ideas' are not.
posted by colie at 1:46 PM on October 25, 2013
posted by colie at 1:46 PM on October 25, 2013
> Why do you find every lost thing in the last place you look? Why didn't you just look there first? Goofball.
Not a problem, after I find whatever it was I keep on looking. (Hums "...I'm looking for my missing piece...")
Or you can look for something really hard to find, like a mefi thread not full of people smarter than an 11-year-old and ready to prove it. Could have sworn I located one of those once, whatever did I do with it? (Not thinking of you, wierdo, just in general.)
posted by jfuller at 1:49 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not a problem, after I find whatever it was I keep on looking. (Hums "...I'm looking for my missing piece...")
Or you can look for something really hard to find, like a mefi thread not full of people smarter than an 11-year-old and ready to prove it. Could have sworn I located one of those once, whatever did I do with it? (Not thinking of you, wierdo, just in general.)
posted by jfuller at 1:49 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Packaging to keep this material from inadvertently getting damp: where does it come from, how much does it cost, and where does it go?
the great thing about sand is that you dump a pile somewhere, and you can fill sandbags, wet or dry.
This stuff may suffer the same contamination as sandbags, though it's not clear that Peyton's polymer absorbs much of anything once wet; the purpose of a sandbag is to build a bulwark against water and so heavy contamination may not be an issue once these bags are already moistened and in place.. Contaminated soils and sediments can be remediated in many ways: pyrolosis, incineration, vitrification (an immobilization technique), solvent extraction, and bioremediation. The polymer sound like a great idea, but what happens afterward?
Absorbent materials are already used in riverine environments for environmental cleanups.
I'm pretty sure those booms are filled with inert polypropylene media, they are not the same as bonding or chelating polymers. At any rate, absorbent or superabsorbent media still poses a cleanup problem. Inert media can sometimes be cleaned in a way that recovers contaminants such as oil; polymers are more complex.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:50 PM on October 25, 2013
the great thing about sand is that you dump a pile somewhere, and you can fill sandbags, wet or dry.
This stuff may suffer the same contamination as sandbags, though it's not clear that Peyton's polymer absorbs much of anything once wet; the purpose of a sandbag is to build a bulwark against water and so heavy contamination may not be an issue once these bags are already moistened and in place.. Contaminated soils and sediments can be remediated in many ways: pyrolosis, incineration, vitrification (an immobilization technique), solvent extraction, and bioremediation. The polymer sound like a great idea, but what happens afterward?
Absorbent materials are already used in riverine environments for environmental cleanups.
I'm pretty sure those booms are filled with inert polypropylene media, they are not the same as bonding or chelating polymers. At any rate, absorbent or superabsorbent media still poses a cleanup problem. Inert media can sometimes be cleaned in a way that recovers contaminants such as oil; polymers are more complex.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:50 PM on October 25, 2013
First, I'll say that the kid's cool, has an obvious passion for the tech/science of what he's doing and has worked hard to, at the very least, get the details under control. Even if it is a derivative work on something that already exists, kudos to him!
Second, I'm sorely tempted to call bullshit on the idea that this is "his" invention. Having taught chemistry for many years to college students and elementary school students (I just today presented a set of outreach science demonstrations for 4th and 6th graders) and having judged science fairs and science olympiads, let's just say there is an awful lot of "parental involvement" emanating from the kid's presentation.
Which is great in its own way, of course. If a kid has parents or teachers in his or her life that inspire them and help them to do these kind of things, I think it's fantastic. I wish every kid had that kind of support and encouragement, whether it's "inventing" a new sand bag or building (yet another) volcano for their science fair project. It's just that, when a kid does something really impressive like this, we are perhaps seeing only some of the kid, and a lot of the people behind the scenes that helped him do it.
But then, isn't that the case with most of our own achievements? We all benefit from those who inspire and help us. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.
So good on you, kid! And good on you, parents and teachers who probably helped him out significantly!
But shame on the reporter* that didn't look into what kind of strong social and parental support and mentors the kid has. Because that's the bigger issue, in my view, and far more important information to share, so people know what's needed in order to educate and inspire cool kids like this.
*Of course, this is HuffPost we're talking about...a news site that has perfected the aggregator-plus-sideboob "news" model.
posted by darkstar at 2:10 PM on October 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
Second, I'm sorely tempted to call bullshit on the idea that this is "his" invention. Having taught chemistry for many years to college students and elementary school students (I just today presented a set of outreach science demonstrations for 4th and 6th graders) and having judged science fairs and science olympiads, let's just say there is an awful lot of "parental involvement" emanating from the kid's presentation.
Which is great in its own way, of course. If a kid has parents or teachers in his or her life that inspire them and help them to do these kind of things, I think it's fantastic. I wish every kid had that kind of support and encouragement, whether it's "inventing" a new sand bag or building (yet another) volcano for their science fair project. It's just that, when a kid does something really impressive like this, we are perhaps seeing only some of the kid, and a lot of the people behind the scenes that helped him do it.
But then, isn't that the case with most of our own achievements? We all benefit from those who inspire and help us. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.
So good on you, kid! And good on you, parents and teachers who probably helped him out significantly!
But shame on the reporter* that didn't look into what kind of strong social and parental support and mentors the kid has. Because that's the bigger issue, in my view, and far more important information to share, so people know what's needed in order to educate and inspire cool kids like this.
*Of course, this is HuffPost we're talking about...a news site that has perfected the aggregator-plus-sideboob "news" model.
posted by darkstar at 2:10 PM on October 25, 2013 [4 favorites]
Contaminated soils and sediments can be remediated in many ways: pyrolosis, incineration, vitrification (an immobilization technique), solvent extraction, and bioremediation. The polymer sound like a great idea, but what happens afterward?
Except that most of those aren't even remotely cost-effective for large quantities of sand with low-level contamination. (Cost-effective would be the asphalt batch plant, assuming the levels and types of contaminants are consistent with safe use. I suspect most contaminated sandbags actually end up at landfills, though.)
Polymers designed for environmental cleanups are (or should be) designed to be easy to treat; not sure about the kind being used here, though.
I'm pretty sure those booms are filled with inert polypropylene media, they are not the same as bonding or chelating polymers
Correct. Bonding polymers are in use in environmental cleanups (although it's early days), but not in booms (AFAIK). I was using the booms as example of another absorbant material you wouldn't want in a river (poly/plastics) that can nonetheless be used safely in a river if you do so correctly.
posted by pie ninja at 2:15 PM on October 25, 2013
Except that most of those aren't even remotely cost-effective for large quantities of sand with low-level contamination. (Cost-effective would be the asphalt batch plant, assuming the levels and types of contaminants are consistent with safe use. I suspect most contaminated sandbags actually end up at landfills, though.)
Polymers designed for environmental cleanups are (or should be) designed to be easy to treat; not sure about the kind being used here, though.
I'm pretty sure those booms are filled with inert polypropylene media, they are not the same as bonding or chelating polymers
Correct. Bonding polymers are in use in environmental cleanups (although it's early days), but not in booms (AFAIK). I was using the booms as example of another absorbant material you wouldn't want in a river (poly/plastics) that can nonetheless be used safely in a river if you do so correctly.
posted by pie ninja at 2:15 PM on October 25, 2013
Meanwhile -- really, I've just been looking for an excuse to share this photo -- a sandbag-filling contest in Western Washington had this moment.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:45 PM on October 25, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:45 PM on October 25, 2013 [9 favorites]
The kid's not a young scientist. He is a young engineer.
posted by srboisvert at 2:45 PM on October 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:45 PM on October 25, 2013 [5 favorites]
Hooray for this kid but, and I know this sounds mean, I wanted to make him stop talking. Like fingernails on a chalkboard.
posted by etaoin at 3:05 PM on October 25, 2013
posted by etaoin at 3:05 PM on October 25, 2013
Daniel Culver, a Columbine student
Not that it's particularly relevant, but Columbine Middle School in Montrose, Colorado is not the same Columbine as Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:46 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not that it's particularly relevant, but Columbine Middle School in Montrose, Colorado is not the same Columbine as Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:46 PM on October 25, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't a sandbag which was about the same density as water (neutrally buoyant) be in danger of floating away with the current?
One of the features of sandbags is that they are much denser than water.
posted by etherist at 4:59 PM on October 25, 2013
One of the features of sandbags is that they are much denser than water.
posted by etherist at 4:59 PM on October 25, 2013
Never use the sand from sandbags to fill children’s sandboxes or playgrounds, as it is not high-quality sand and the sandbags may have been contaminated.
Oh, well la di dah—what, exactly, is the difference between sand and, uh, high-quality sand?
Potential for causing silicosis?
posted by limeonaire at 5:09 PM on October 25, 2013
Oh, well la di dah—what, exactly, is the difference between sand and, uh, high-quality sand?
Potential for causing silicosis?
posted by limeonaire at 5:09 PM on October 25, 2013
Yeah, so what do you do with them afterwards? Plastics in the environment is a thing we need to minimize.
posted by Sintram at 5:33 PM on October 25, 2013
posted by Sintram at 5:33 PM on October 25, 2013
You know what else we need to minimize?
The devastation caused by floods.
posted by etherist at 6:18 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
The devastation caused by floods.
posted by etherist at 6:18 PM on October 25, 2013 [3 favorites]
Nobody's disputing that flood damage should be minimized. However, mankind has a long and storied history of coming up with solutions that present greater problems. It's normal, we're aware and often find it necessary to proceed anyway but let's think it through, why not take some time to ponder it. And fix the fucking God damned levees and dams and start taking measures to get out of the "fucking with the climate game."
So we can all agree that floods are a bad thing to avoid and be defended against and also wonder about the longer term environmental impacts of using the polymer instead of sand. For all you know the long term effects from Manufacture to use to disposal are "more severe flooding." It's certainly worth somebody's time to be thinking about it. We can all focus on what we want. Yay!
posted by lordaych at 3:54 AM on October 26, 2013
So we can all agree that floods are a bad thing to avoid and be defended against and also wonder about the longer term environmental impacts of using the polymer instead of sand. For all you know the long term effects from Manufacture to use to disposal are "more severe flooding." It's certainly worth somebody's time to be thinking about it. We can all focus on what we want. Yay!
posted by lordaych at 3:54 AM on October 26, 2013
Having done well in a few, and now as a graduate student having judged a few, science fairs are fucking awesome. They get kids doing science and thinking about the natural world as scientists, they give kids who do marginally well a chance to interact with real scientists at their local university, and they serve as a project with tangible results. That said, I fucking hate 3M's annual exploitation of the sport.
Especially as the competition narrows the whole business is built to ignore, and thus select for, all of the worst aspects of science fairs. Kids who are natural 'self-promoters' with enthusiastic and plausibly deceptive parents do well over kids with kid appropriate but genuinely clever ideas. This project reeks of a parent, its usually just one of them enabled by the second, who wants to relive the glory days or rewrite the embarrassment of their science fairs with adult knowledge and with their own kid as a canvas to paint it on. What should be a celebration of the value of dedication and scientific thinking becomes indistinguishable from child beauty pageants as the kids get lost in all of it, with the added bonus of allowing parents to celebrate their ability to beat children at a child's game.
The projects that win 3M's competition never have the knowledge of the fields they dabble in necessary to actually have something that is both original and valuable, being generally neither, and are always dishonestly presented by 3M as if they do. That they get away with it in the press seems like it is just a function of that strange kind of science reporting where journalists, lacking any real education in science themselves, ignore real scientists to find children operating on a level they can understand. They generally also reek of a parent with knowledge of saline density or with access to reagents or with an organic chemistry education or with access to cell cultures with projects that one would expect from the advanced undergrads their parents once were rather than 12 year olds.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:12 AM on October 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Especially as the competition narrows the whole business is built to ignore, and thus select for, all of the worst aspects of science fairs. Kids who are natural 'self-promoters' with enthusiastic and plausibly deceptive parents do well over kids with kid appropriate but genuinely clever ideas. This project reeks of a parent, its usually just one of them enabled by the second, who wants to relive the glory days or rewrite the embarrassment of their science fairs with adult knowledge and with their own kid as a canvas to paint it on. What should be a celebration of the value of dedication and scientific thinking becomes indistinguishable from child beauty pageants as the kids get lost in all of it, with the added bonus of allowing parents to celebrate their ability to beat children at a child's game.
The projects that win 3M's competition never have the knowledge of the fields they dabble in necessary to actually have something that is both original and valuable, being generally neither, and are always dishonestly presented by 3M as if they do. That they get away with it in the press seems like it is just a function of that strange kind of science reporting where journalists, lacking any real education in science themselves, ignore real scientists to find children operating on a level they can understand. They generally also reek of a parent with knowledge of saline density or with access to reagents or with an organic chemistry education or with access to cell cultures with projects that one would expect from the advanced undergrads their parents once were rather than 12 year olds.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:12 AM on October 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
What if you don't live near sand?
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 3:24 PM on October 25 [+] [!]
Then you probably don't have a problem with salt water flooding.
posted by Gungho at 6:43 AM on October 26, 2013
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 3:24 PM on October 25 [+] [!]
Then you probably don't have a problem with salt water flooding.
posted by Gungho at 6:43 AM on October 26, 2013
Oh, well la di dah—what, exactly, is the difference between sand and, uh, high-quality sand?
Plain old sand is dug out of a deposit of sand somewhere - straight into a truck. Fancier sand is washed, of uniform size, etc.
posted by ssg at 10:16 AM on October 26, 2013
Plain old sand is dug out of a deposit of sand somewhere - straight into a truck. Fancier sand is washed, of uniform size, etc.
posted by ssg at 10:16 AM on October 26, 2013
Having lived in hurricane/floodlandia for most of my life, I have learned that you get like a week's notice that a hurricane is coming. They don't sneak up on you like tornadoes. So your municipality orders sand and bags and whatnot as part of their emergency budget, and they notify residents when the supply trucks come in and you come down and fill your sandbags.
posted by toodleydoodley at 12:58 PM on October 26, 2013
posted by toodleydoodley at 12:58 PM on October 26, 2013
Why do you find every lost thing in the last place you look? Why didn't you just look there first? Goofball.
Also, David Brenner's old bit about people always finding things in the last place they looked: "Of course it was in the last place you looked. Why would you keep looking for it once you've found it?"
posted by Room 641-A at 8:48 PM on October 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, David Brenner's old bit about people always finding things in the last place they looked: "Of course it was in the last place you looked. Why would you keep looking for it once you've found it?"
posted by Room 641-A at 8:48 PM on October 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Then you probably don't have a problem with salt water flooding.
Not every shore is a sandy beach.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:11 AM on October 29, 2013
Not every shore is a sandy beach.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:11 AM on October 29, 2013
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