Ladies and Gentlemen, Your Cobb County Braves
November 12, 2013 5:55 PM Subscribe
The Atlanta Braves have announced plan to move out of Atlanta to nearby Cobb County by 2017. The Marietta Daily Journal reports that a new $672 million stadium will be built just to the northwest of Atlanta. The announcement has left everyone "kind of stunned."
The new stadium, according to Executive Vice President of Sales and Marketing Derek Schiller, will have an Atlanta address.
Recently re-elected Mayor Kasim Reed has promised "one of the largest developments for middle-class people that the city has ever had" will replace the Turner Field. Though the fact the move, which has apparently been in negotiation for some time, was only announced after Reed won the election has not gone un-noted. The Saporta Report has examined What it would have taken for Atlanta to keep the Braves at Turner Field.
The Braves cited transportation issues as a reason for moving; Turner Field is currently linked to the MARTA system by Shuttle Bus running from the nearby 5 Point hub. Cobb County notably refused the extension of the MARTA rail system into the area back when the system was first established. The only mass transit currently available in the county is a limited bus system. Asked about transportation issues, County Chairman Joe Dendy said, "...the solution is all about moving cars in and around Cobb and surrounding counties from our north and east where most Braves fans travel from, and not moving people into Cobb by rail from Atlanta."
Reactions to the announced move have not been entirely positive. Bob Smiznik of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette writes the Sleazy tradition of sports franchises blackmailing cities continues in Atlanta. The Atlantic Wire writes The New Braves Stadium Is a 'Really Crappy Deal' for Cobb County.
With lack of control over the development around Turner Field cited by Braves management as one reason for the move, the longform piece published earlier this year in Atlanta Magazine seems particularly poignant: The Other 284 Days
The new stadium, according to Executive Vice President of Sales and Marketing Derek Schiller, will have an Atlanta address.
Recently re-elected Mayor Kasim Reed has promised "one of the largest developments for middle-class people that the city has ever had" will replace the Turner Field. Though the fact the move, which has apparently been in negotiation for some time, was only announced after Reed won the election has not gone un-noted. The Saporta Report has examined What it would have taken for Atlanta to keep the Braves at Turner Field.
The Braves cited transportation issues as a reason for moving; Turner Field is currently linked to the MARTA system by Shuttle Bus running from the nearby 5 Point hub. Cobb County notably refused the extension of the MARTA rail system into the area back when the system was first established. The only mass transit currently available in the county is a limited bus system. Asked about transportation issues, County Chairman Joe Dendy said, "...the solution is all about moving cars in and around Cobb and surrounding counties from our north and east where most Braves fans travel from, and not moving people into Cobb by rail from Atlanta."
Reactions to the announced move have not been entirely positive. Bob Smiznik of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette writes the Sleazy tradition of sports franchises blackmailing cities continues in Atlanta. The Atlantic Wire writes The New Braves Stadium Is a 'Really Crappy Deal' for Cobb County.
With lack of control over the development around Turner Field cited by Braves management as one reason for the move, the longform piece published earlier this year in Atlanta Magazine seems particularly poignant: The Other 284 Days
I hope that the city of Atlanta charges them a royalty for using the name "Atlanta."
posted by spilon at 6:01 PM on November 12, 2013 [22 favorites]
posted by spilon at 6:01 PM on November 12, 2013 [22 favorites]
My feeling, as an Atlantan, is that Braves management saw the continuing resurgence of Downtown and surrounding areas, including plans for around Turner Field, and wanted in on the action. Failing to get concessions from the city to build a Braves controlled enclave around the stadium, they opted to not take part in some of the most exciting times in the city since Sherman left. They're literally taking the ball and going (to a new) home, which means they're pretty much dead to me.
My feeling, as someone who can do math, is that paying an almost $700M cost to build a new sports stadium in an area with no public transportation and already nightmarish traffic makes no sense when your current stadium needs less than half that in refurbishment and upkeep.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:01 PM on November 12, 2013 [26 favorites]
My feeling, as someone who can do math, is that paying an almost $700M cost to build a new sports stadium in an area with no public transportation and already nightmarish traffic makes no sense when your current stadium needs less than half that in refurbishment and upkeep.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:01 PM on November 12, 2013 [26 favorites]
This sentence caught my eye:
The Braves are just one unit of Liberty Media, a company whose holdings include Sirius XM and Barnes & Noble.
posted by wotsac at 6:05 PM on November 12, 2013 [10 favorites]
The Braves are just one unit of Liberty Media, a company whose holdings include Sirius XM and Barnes & Noble.
posted by wotsac at 6:05 PM on November 12, 2013 [10 favorites]
I have no idea how, in 2013, that any sane, reasonably aware person can believe that a professional sports team is any kind of economic boon to a city. If you look at almost every large stadium in America, you'll see that the surrounding neighborhoods are almost totally blasted urban craters, with no real hope (or desire) to develop.
It's possible to imagine a locality benefiting from a major sports team if the stadium and team were completely privately funded -- that would actually represent private investment flowing into the community -- but instead we have this bizarre farce where taxpayers fork over hundreds of millions to sports teams in return for urban blight a few thousand minimum wage jobs.
What the hell is wrong with us?
posted by Avenger at 6:08 PM on November 12, 2013 [74 favorites]
It's possible to imagine a locality benefiting from a major sports team if the stadium and team were completely privately funded -- that would actually represent private investment flowing into the community -- but instead we have this bizarre farce where taxpayers fork over hundreds of millions to sports teams in return for urban blight a few thousand minimum wage jobs.
What the hell is wrong with us?
posted by Avenger at 6:08 PM on November 12, 2013 [74 favorites]
Their racist mascot will play better in the suburbs, so there's that. And what Panjandrum said.
posted by dortmunder at 6:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by dortmunder at 6:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
I love Turner Field. I do not love schlepping to Cobb county, the traffic is Terrible.
Gwinnett Braves. That's the ticket.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:10 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
Gwinnett Braves. That's the ticket.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:10 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
Clearly, the 20 year old multimillion dollar stadium is well past its expiration date. After all, in 1996, humans barely had the technology to put up a steel and concrete structure.
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:18 PM on November 12, 2013 [41 favorites]
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:18 PM on November 12, 2013 [41 favorites]
"...the solution is all about moving cars in and around Cobb and surrounding counties from our north and east where most Braves fans travel from, and not moving people into Cobb by rail from Atlanta."
Well, that could hardly be clearer.
posted by rtha at 6:19 PM on November 12, 2013 [27 favorites]
Well, that could hardly be clearer.
posted by rtha at 6:19 PM on November 12, 2013 [27 favorites]
I don't know if the Padres' newish stadium in San Diego was a net plus or minus for the city, but it did help revitalize the neighborhood it's in.
posted by Aizkolari at 6:19 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Aizkolari at 6:19 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
I still think of Turner Field as the "new" Braves stadium. FULTON COUNTY STADIUM 4EVA
Meanwhile, over here in Birmingham ("Like Atlanta, but smaller, dumber and more hateful!"), our little minor league team moved from the white flight suburbs into a brand-new stadium in the middle of downtown. Attendance skyrocketed, the stadium won all sorts of awards, it's a lovely place to see a baseball game, and they sell craft beer, tasty fish tacos, and Dreamland barbecue. Oh, and they did it without building acres and acres of parking lots or tearing down historic buildings. In fact, the stadium is a link between the new central city park and a proposed belt that would create an acres-wide, miles-long walkable greenway right through the middle of downtown. The problem they are having now is SLOWING development around the proposed greenway until the traffic and environmental impact can be assessed.
I like watching Atlanta make the mistakes for a change.
#birmingsmug
posted by BitterOldPunk at 6:19 PM on November 12, 2013 [81 favorites]
Meanwhile, over here in Birmingham ("Like Atlanta, but smaller, dumber and more hateful!"), our little minor league team moved from the white flight suburbs into a brand-new stadium in the middle of downtown. Attendance skyrocketed, the stadium won all sorts of awards, it's a lovely place to see a baseball game, and they sell craft beer, tasty fish tacos, and Dreamland barbecue. Oh, and they did it without building acres and acres of parking lots or tearing down historic buildings. In fact, the stadium is a link between the new central city park and a proposed belt that would create an acres-wide, miles-long walkable greenway right through the middle of downtown. The problem they are having now is SLOWING development around the proposed greenway until the traffic and environmental impact can be assessed.
I like watching Atlanta make the mistakes for a change.
#birmingsmug
posted by BitterOldPunk at 6:19 PM on November 12, 2013 [81 favorites]
If you look at almost every large stadium in America, you'll see that the surrounding neighborhoods are almost totally blasted urban craters, with no real hope (or desire) to develop.
Hey, now- Wrigleyville isn't entirely terrible.
*spits*
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:22 PM on November 12, 2013 [8 favorites]
Hey, now- Wrigleyville isn't entirely terrible.
*spits*
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:22 PM on November 12, 2013 [8 favorites]
Hey, now- Wrigleyville isn't entirely terrible.
You know how orange glop in the grocery store has to be labeled as "processed cheese food product" instead of "cheese?"
That is the relationship between "the Cubs" and "a professional baseball team."
posted by delfin at 6:25 PM on November 12, 2013 [17 favorites]
You know how orange glop in the grocery store has to be labeled as "processed cheese food product" instead of "cheese?"
That is the relationship between "the Cubs" and "a professional baseball team."
posted by delfin at 6:25 PM on November 12, 2013 [17 favorites]
A Tom Wolfe novel come to life!
posted by Brocktoon at 6:25 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 6:25 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
I like watching Atlanta make the mistakes for a change.
For a change? Atlanta is a crippled hulk consisting of pasted-together suburbs with clogged arteries and self-hate. During a period when most of the major cities of the US, and some smaller ones, are experiencing downtown growth and revitalization, Atlanta is pretty much stagnating.
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:26 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
For a change? Atlanta is a crippled hulk consisting of pasted-together suburbs with clogged arteries and self-hate. During a period when most of the major cities of the US, and some smaller ones, are experiencing downtown growth and revitalization, Atlanta is pretty much stagnating.
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:26 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
That is the relationship between "the Cubs" and "a professional baseball team."
That is not incorrect.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
That is not incorrect.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
A little additional context for the non-Atlanta people reading this.
We just went through a three year long wrangle over using public funds to build a new stadium for the Atlanta Falcons., now estimated to be a total $1B spend; the new stadium is literally going to be right next to the "old" stadium. This surely factored into the City of Atlanta's willingness and ability to negotiate with the Braves.
The Braves were very savvy in releasing a heat map of where their ticket buyers live. A lot of commentators have been quick to point out that the Atlanta rail system, MARTA, doesn't go to Cobb county, but the Braves organization claims that only 6% of their customers are riding MARTA to get to the current venue. Having said that, the current stadium sits right on top of the intersection of three interstates: I-20, I-85, and I-75; the proposed new location is sandwiched in the corner of I-75 and I-285, but without a direct exit from either interstate. The traffic there is already pretty dismal, without 90ish pro baseball games a year.
Cobb County has apparently offered up $450M of the estimated $672M for the new stadium. This is ironic because Cobb County has a large tea party presence; it isn't clear to anyone yet where the $450M is going to come from and whether it will involve raising taxes. As R. Schlock points out just above, Cobb is currently furloughing teachers.
posted by kovacs at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2013 [44 favorites]
We just went through a three year long wrangle over using public funds to build a new stadium for the Atlanta Falcons., now estimated to be a total $1B spend; the new stadium is literally going to be right next to the "old" stadium. This surely factored into the City of Atlanta's willingness and ability to negotiate with the Braves.
The Braves were very savvy in releasing a heat map of where their ticket buyers live. A lot of commentators have been quick to point out that the Atlanta rail system, MARTA, doesn't go to Cobb county, but the Braves organization claims that only 6% of their customers are riding MARTA to get to the current venue. Having said that, the current stadium sits right on top of the intersection of three interstates: I-20, I-85, and I-75; the proposed new location is sandwiched in the corner of I-75 and I-285, but without a direct exit from either interstate. The traffic there is already pretty dismal, without 90ish pro baseball games a year.
Cobb County has apparently offered up $450M of the estimated $672M for the new stadium. This is ironic because Cobb County has a large tea party presence; it isn't clear to anyone yet where the $450M is going to come from and whether it will involve raising taxes. As R. Schlock points out just above, Cobb is currently furloughing teachers.
posted by kovacs at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2013 [44 favorites]
AT&T Park née Pacific Bell Park was privately financed and I think is a boon the neighborhood (occasional sports-related violence aside).
And I agree with Aizkolari that Padres stadium was a benefit to the area.
posted by 2bucksplus at 6:31 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
And I agree with Aizkolari that Padres stadium was a benefit to the area.
posted by 2bucksplus at 6:31 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
My feeling, as someone who can do math, is that paying an almost $700M cost to build a new sports stadium in an area with no public transportation and already nightmarish traffic makes no sense when your current stadium needs less than half that in refurbishment and upkeep.
It makes sense if someone else is paying.
the proposed new location is sandwiched in the corner of I-75 and I-285, but without a direct exit from either interstate.
Oh, I'm sure there are plans for many hundreds of millions of dollars of highway reconstructions and expansions. Funded, of course, entirely by the government. But, unlike MARTA, it won't be "subsidized," because it's not public transit.
posted by alexei at 6:32 PM on November 12, 2013 [16 favorites]
It makes sense if someone else is paying.
the proposed new location is sandwiched in the corner of I-75 and I-285, but without a direct exit from either interstate.
Oh, I'm sure there are plans for many hundreds of millions of dollars of highway reconstructions and expansions. Funded, of course, entirely by the government. But, unlike MARTA, it won't be "subsidized," because it's not public transit.
posted by alexei at 6:32 PM on November 12, 2013 [16 favorites]
During a period when most of the major cities of the US, and some smaller ones, are experiencing downtown growth and revitalization, Atlanta is pretty much stagnating.
I KNOW! Isn't it GREAT!
(I'm kidding. In fact, just last Sunday I rode MARTA to the Georgia Dome and paid good money to watch the Seahawks mercilessly drub the Falcons.)
posted by BitterOldPunk at 6:32 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I KNOW! Isn't it GREAT!
(I'm kidding. In fact, just last Sunday I rode MARTA to the Georgia Dome and paid good money to watch the Seahawks mercilessly drub the Falcons.)
posted by BitterOldPunk at 6:32 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, Staples in DT LA has been a boon to development in a formerly pretty blighted part of the city. Of course, the folks who built Staples Center also bought up a lot of the surrounding real estate themselves before they kicked off the project.
Privately financed, mostly.
posted by notyou at 6:35 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Privately financed, mostly.
posted by notyou at 6:35 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you look at almost every large stadium in America, you'll see that the surrounding neighborhoods are almost totally blasted urban craters, with no real hope (or desire) to develop.
OK, let's say that your use of "almost every" is equal to 80%. Name the cities with "totally blasted urban craters" and let's see if the percentage of total sports arenas meeting that characteristic is anywhere close. I highly suspect it's not, and even less so around new stadiums (like, post-Camden Yards). I'm not a fan of continual public funding of stadium construction, but there's no need to blame them for blight that isn't happening.
posted by LionIndex at 6:41 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
OK, let's say that your use of "almost every" is equal to 80%. Name the cities with "totally blasted urban craters" and let's see if the percentage of total sports arenas meeting that characteristic is anywhere close. I highly suspect it's not, and even less so around new stadiums (like, post-Camden Yards). I'm not a fan of continual public funding of stadium construction, but there's no need to blame them for blight that isn't happening.
posted by LionIndex at 6:41 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
From a fan's point of view the chances of me spending 90 minutes or more in the middle of the rush hour schlepping across the Top End Perimeter (as the north side of Atlanta's ring-road is known) with its notoriously bad traffic are roughly the same as me driving half an hour to the closest train station in Doraville, spending another half-hour or more taking the train down to Five Points, running the gauntlet to the shuttle bus, and enduring the process in reverse — with the addition of a belly full of beer, pretzels, and peanuts — after the game. Which is to say, approximating zero. I'm sure the view from my couch will be fine either way.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:48 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by ob1quixote at 6:48 PM on November 12, 2013
Fenway would be an OK neighborhood if it weren't for Fenway. (OK, and Lansdowne Street.)
posted by maryr at 6:48 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by maryr at 6:48 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
I hope that the city of Atlanta charges them a royalty for using the name "Atlanta."
Right after the 49ers pay for the rights to "San Francisco" (their new stadium is going up in Santa Clara, 40-odd miles away).
posted by MikeKD at 6:49 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Right after the 49ers pay for the rights to "San Francisco" (their new stadium is going up in Santa Clara, 40-odd miles away).
posted by MikeKD at 6:49 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't know, in SF's case it seems like getting traffic out of the city isn't the worst idea. And CaoTrain from SF to Santa Clara seems to be only $9 - no idea if that gets you close enough to the stadium.
posted by maryr at 6:53 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by maryr at 6:53 PM on November 12, 2013
(This coming from someone who has visited SF several times and found public transit there via MUNI, BART, CalTrain, and Amtrak to be more difficult than driving, but definitely doable.)
posted by maryr at 6:54 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by maryr at 6:54 PM on November 12, 2013
Atlanta is a crippled hulk consisting of pasted-together suburbs with clogged arteries and self-hate. During a period when most of the major cities of the US, and some smaller ones, are experiencing downtown growth and revitalization, Atlanta is pretty much stagnating..
Whoa, someone clearly hasn't been Downtown in the past half-decade, or really any intown neighborhood in the past decade. It's a huge change from the ghost town it was just a few years ago and an even bigger change from where it was in the post-Olympics slump. GSU actually has dorms Downtown now and all sort of attendant growth around them, Edgewood street is busier than it's ever been, even with the motherfucking streetcar going in along it, City Hall East is finally becoming something other than a horror movie set, and the Beltline keeps growing and tying everything together. Intown Atlanta, including Downtown, is more revitalized than it has been in decades, which makes the Braves decision just that more ludicrous.
You got an OTP mindset.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:56 PM on November 12, 2013 [12 favorites]
Whoa, someone clearly hasn't been Downtown in the past half-decade, or really any intown neighborhood in the past decade. It's a huge change from the ghost town it was just a few years ago and an even bigger change from where it was in the post-Olympics slump. GSU actually has dorms Downtown now and all sort of attendant growth around them, Edgewood street is busier than it's ever been, even with the motherfucking streetcar going in along it, City Hall East is finally becoming something other than a horror movie set, and the Beltline keeps growing and tying everything together. Intown Atlanta, including Downtown, is more revitalized than it has been in decades, which makes the Braves decision just that more ludicrous.
You got an OTP mindset.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:56 PM on November 12, 2013 [12 favorites]
As long as the new stadium is on Peachtree street, there will be no confusion.
I don't even think there is a proper Peachtree out in Cobb County, that's how un-Atlantan this is.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:57 PM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
I don't even think there is a proper Peachtree out in Cobb County, that's how un-Atlantan this is.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:57 PM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
One of the campaign promises of my city's mayor elect was that he won't approve giveaways from the city to the sports teams. I'm really hoping that he keeps that since the previous mayors gave the three teams anything they wanted.
posted by octothorpe at 6:58 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by octothorpe at 6:58 PM on November 12, 2013
Well, that could hardly be clearer.
Racists gonna literally race.
posted by mhoye at 7:00 PM on November 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
Racists gonna literally race.
posted by mhoye at 7:00 PM on November 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
Look, when we say, "Peachtree" we mean the big street running North and South. I'm sorry if that's too much to handle for some people.
posted by thelonius at 7:01 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:01 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
All I can think of when I hear "Cobb County" is an old episode of TV Nation, where he asks the good citizens, who hated taxation so much, to get off the federally-funded roads, to stop using the federally-funded library, and get out of the federally-funded lake.
The stinger was Newt Gingrich and Michael Moore sharing the same TV screen, if memory serves. That kinda gets burned into your brain as to why didn't they explode like matter and anti-matter.
With that as my only touchstone, this somehow doesn't surprise.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:03 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
The stinger was Newt Gingrich and Michael Moore sharing the same TV screen, if memory serves. That kinda gets burned into your brain as to why didn't they explode like matter and anti-matter.
With that as my only touchstone, this somehow doesn't surprise.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:03 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Fenway would be an OK neighborhood if it weren't for Fenway. (OK, and Lansdowne Street.)
I don't know. Seems like a fun area when it isn't game night.
posted by ocschwar at 7:06 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't know. Seems like a fun area when it isn't game night.
posted by ocschwar at 7:06 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you look at almost every large stadium in America, you'll see that the surrounding neighborhoods are almost totally blasted urban craters
It's the queers, Stuart. They're in it with the aliens.
posted by echo target at 7:08 PM on November 12, 2013 [17 favorites]
It's the queers, Stuart. They're in it with the aliens.
posted by echo target at 7:08 PM on November 12, 2013 [17 favorites]
As a transportation planner, urban planner, liberal, and baseball fan, I want to congratulate he Cobb County Chairman for uttering a statement so perfectly calibrated to make me spit bile.
posted by dry white toast at 7:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by dry white toast at 7:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [10 favorites]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
posted by skepticallypleased at 7:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by skepticallypleased at 7:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
The MARTA line from Decatur to Georgia State opened in 1980 or so. Places like Cobb County want nothing to do with it because, uh, they philosophically believe that this is not the role of government. Yeah.
posted by thelonius at 7:14 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:14 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
90ish pro baseball games a year
Well, it'd be absolutely fine with me if they cut it back to 81.
posted by RogerB at 7:17 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
Well, it'd be absolutely fine with me if they cut it back to 81.
posted by RogerB at 7:17 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
ocschwar, it is, in all fairness. I was going to follow up by saying that I think the MBTA actually does a pretty great job of shuttling people in and out of the neighborhood on game days and the lack of available/affordable parking forces people to use public transportation, preventing traffic from being an even greater clusterfuck. I think Celtics and Bruins games (both play in the TD Banknorth Garden) make traffic much worse because of available parking and proximity to 93, despite the fact that their stadium is literally on top of one the city's biggest transportation hubs. (Fenway Park's proximity to 90 is largely unimportant because there's no useful exit nearby.)
But I didn't say all that earlier because I already three comments more or less in a row and I felt like I was hogging the thread. And this is probably a derail anyway. But let the record show that ocschwar is correct, Fenway is not too bad a neighborhood on off-nights.
Except for Lansdowne.
posted by maryr at 7:23 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
But I didn't say all that earlier because I already three comments more or less in a row and I felt like I was hogging the thread. And this is probably a derail anyway. But let the record show that ocschwar is correct, Fenway is not too bad a neighborhood on off-nights.
Except for Lansdowne.
posted by maryr at 7:23 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I would guess that after a three hour game, people would rather sit in their cosy cars than spend another hour on public transit.
posted by Brocktoon at 7:29 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Brocktoon at 7:29 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
The idea that $450 million dollars will be taken from the tax payers of Cobb County to build a playground for millionaires is obscene.
posted by humanfont at 7:30 PM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 7:30 PM on November 12, 2013 [7 favorites]
Schematic plan of the new stadium (this won't make much sense if you haven't at least somewhat followed the team over the past couple of years)
posted by exogenous at 7:31 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by exogenous at 7:31 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
>> Fenway would be an OK neighborhood if it weren't for Fenway. (OK, and Lansdowne Street.)
> I don't know. Seems like a fun area when it isn't game night.
No, it's horrible. People should stay away. (Grumble, grumble, line's too damn long at my old coffee place, get your stinking BWM X5 back to the Back Bay where it belongs.)
posted by benito.strauss at 7:39 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
> I don't know. Seems like a fun area when it isn't game night.
No, it's horrible. People should stay away. (Grumble, grumble, line's too damn long at my old coffee place, get your stinking BWM X5 back to the Back Bay where it belongs.)
posted by benito.strauss at 7:39 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
The Mets will find a new House of Horrors, is all.
posted by oneironaut at 7:44 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by oneironaut at 7:44 PM on November 12, 2013
Gwinnett Braves. That's the ticket.
I remember them, back when they used to be the Richmond Braves. Then they moved to Gwinnett because... wait for it... we wouldn't build them a new stadium.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 7:44 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
I remember them, back when they used to be the Richmond Braves. Then they moved to Gwinnett because... wait for it... we wouldn't build them a new stadium.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 7:44 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
Because black people can use it to get places. Glib, but that's about as close to a historically accurate answer as you're going to get.
posted by threeants at 7:49 PM on November 12, 2013 [56 favorites]
Because black people can use it to get places. Glib, but that's about as close to a historically accurate answer as you're going to get.
posted by threeants at 7:49 PM on November 12, 2013 [56 favorites]
benito - they want to go back, they do! but they can't find their way back to Newbury St, the streets all go the wrong way. And God help them if they go the wrong way on Brookline and end up on Park Dr/Riverway.
posted by maryr at 7:51 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by maryr at 7:51 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
Because commies.
posted by vrakatar at 7:51 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Because commies.
posted by vrakatar at 7:51 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you pay attention to fighting over bus lines in southern cities, you will observe that white neighborhoods will fight tooth and nail to prevent bus lines from running into their neighborhoods. This is because criminals will apparently use the bus to travel to the whitebread part of town, go on rampant crime sprees, then form an orderly queue at the bus stop to return to their own homes.
Does that sound crazy? It should, but that is pretty much the text of the objections to expanding public transit.
posted by winna at 8:03 PM on November 12, 2013 [23 favorites]
Does that sound crazy? It should, but that is pretty much the text of the objections to expanding public transit.
posted by winna at 8:03 PM on November 12, 2013 [23 favorites]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
Southerners are almost comically afraid of "crime," which means "black people." The theory goes that, if there is mass transit, "crime" will use the mass transit to come into the "nice" neighborhoods and rape everyone. Plus, mass transit is a form of taking from "earners" and giving it to people who "abuse the system," which means "black people," too.
posted by sonic meat machine at 8:05 PM on November 12, 2013 [30 favorites]
Southerners are almost comically afraid of "crime," which means "black people." The theory goes that, if there is mass transit, "crime" will use the mass transit to come into the "nice" neighborhoods and rape everyone. Plus, mass transit is a form of taking from "earners" and giving it to people who "abuse the system," which means "black people," too.
posted by sonic meat machine at 8:05 PM on November 12, 2013 [30 favorites]
See, all I can think of when I hear about Cobb County is The Big Bossman.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:09 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
threeants: "Because black people can use it to get places. Glib, but that's about as close to a historically accurate answer as you're going to get."
Yup. That's why St. Louis's light rail, for example, only goes out to the airport, and not further (or south) to the exurbs...literally people said that the train would bring the "bad element" out there to rob their homes. What, the criminals gonna take a big screen on the train?
posted by notsnot at 8:10 PM on November 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yup. That's why St. Louis's light rail, for example, only goes out to the airport, and not further (or south) to the exurbs...literally people said that the train would bring the "bad element" out there to rob their homes. What, the criminals gonna take a big screen on the train?
posted by notsnot at 8:10 PM on November 12, 2013 [6 favorites]
You mean there are stadiums in Georgia besides Sanford Stadium? That doesn't seem right... are you sure this is happening in Georgia? Oh, wait, it's in Atlanta. That's like, I dunno, a certain non-zero percentage of Georgia, I suppose.
I kid. I live waaaay OTP, but still love the ATL and am waiting for the extended April Fools from the Braves for doing this unspeakable thing. Because this can't really happen, right? Can't the Almighty Ted return from the great beyond (Montana) and set things true? If not, may the Ghost of Grizzard have mercy on their souls, because I sure won't.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 8:22 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
I kid. I live waaaay OTP, but still love the ATL and am waiting for the extended April Fools from the Braves for doing this unspeakable thing. Because this can't really happen, right? Can't the Almighty Ted return from the great beyond (Montana) and set things true? If not, may the Ghost of Grizzard have mercy on their souls, because I sure won't.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 8:22 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
Schematic plan of the new stadium
Clearly a hoax; not enough Hank Aaron memorabilia.
posted by Panjandrum at 8:26 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Clearly a hoax; not enough Hank Aaron memorabilia.
posted by Panjandrum at 8:26 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Man, this thread's making me want to go back to ATL and see what all's happened since I left.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:47 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:47 PM on November 12, 2013
Well, what did you expect? They left Boston, they left Milwaukee, how could Atlanta think they wouldn't leave? I don't care about the Braves; I care that the Dodgers left Brooklyn. If it weren't for the Red Sox, the fickle heart of baseball would bum me out all the time.
posted by Anitanola at 9:02 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Anitanola at 9:02 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
Eh, anti-Southern stereotyping strikes again. The first phase of Charlotte, NC's light-rail system has been very successful, exceeding ridership expectations from the start and generating big transit-related economic benefits. Here's a 2010 article that summarizes the success (and describes how dumb federal restrictions actually held back the system's growth):
A Southern Success Story for Public Transportation Offers Lessons in Livability
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- By nearly all accounts, the new light-rail project here has been an unexpected and nearly unprecedented success. But that hasn't stopped local and federal officials from wishing they could go back in time and take a second crack at planning it.
The 9.6-mile line linking the city's suburban South End with its downtown financial district -- known here as "Uptown" -- came on line in the fall of 2007 with its planners expecting solid but ordinary ridership. What they got, however, was ballooning interest that reached 16,000 daily weekday trips in its first year, nearly twice the federal projections and roughly 15 years ahead of schedule....
The early success in Charlotte has proved false a long-standing assumption by some in the transportation community that urban planning would fail in Southern cities, said Chris Leinberger, a visiting fellow at the Brooking Institution and smart-growth advocate who has been tracking the city's progress.
"Good Lord, the success in Charlotte, along with other Sunbelt cities -- like Denver, Salt Lake City and Phoenix -- have shown that there is pent-up demand for walkable, urban development all across the country," Leinberger said. "And rail transit is prerequisite for that. It is the most important infrastructure investment that urban areas can make. If you're not building it today, it's akin to not building freeways in the 1960s."
The ridership numbers for the city's first light rail line help to make the case: More than 70 percent of the system's riders had previously never been regular passengers on Charlotte's bus service, according to the city.
posted by mediareport at 9:03 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
Eh, anti-Southern stereotyping strikes again. The first phase of Charlotte, NC's light-rail system has been very successful, exceeding ridership expectations from the start and generating big transit-related economic benefits. Here's a 2010 article that summarizes the success (and describes how dumb federal restrictions actually held back the system's growth):
A Southern Success Story for Public Transportation Offers Lessons in Livability
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- By nearly all accounts, the new light-rail project here has been an unexpected and nearly unprecedented success. But that hasn't stopped local and federal officials from wishing they could go back in time and take a second crack at planning it.
The 9.6-mile line linking the city's suburban South End with its downtown financial district -- known here as "Uptown" -- came on line in the fall of 2007 with its planners expecting solid but ordinary ridership. What they got, however, was ballooning interest that reached 16,000 daily weekday trips in its first year, nearly twice the federal projections and roughly 15 years ahead of schedule....
The early success in Charlotte has proved false a long-standing assumption by some in the transportation community that urban planning would fail in Southern cities, said Chris Leinberger, a visiting fellow at the Brooking Institution and smart-growth advocate who has been tracking the city's progress.
"Good Lord, the success in Charlotte, along with other Sunbelt cities -- like Denver, Salt Lake City and Phoenix -- have shown that there is pent-up demand for walkable, urban development all across the country," Leinberger said. "And rail transit is prerequisite for that. It is the most important infrastructure investment that urban areas can make. If you're not building it today, it's akin to not building freeways in the 1960s."
The ridership numbers for the city's first light rail line help to make the case: More than 70 percent of the system's riders had previously never been regular passengers on Charlotte's bus service, according to the city.
posted by mediareport at 9:03 PM on November 12, 2013 [4 favorites]
I don't think anyone has been saying that transit wouldn't be successful. Rather that it is being kept out of more expensive areas because of dog whistle racism.
posted by Mitheral at 9:12 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 9:12 PM on November 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
Brochure from the 1979 Inauguration of the MARTA Line. Note the little map with the proposed branch marked Northwest, a branch that would've shot right into Cobb County and, ironically, straight toward the location of the new stadium.
posted by grabbingsand at 9:35 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by grabbingsand at 9:35 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you look at almost every large stadium in America, you'll see that the surrounding neighborhoods are almost totally blasted urban craters, with no real hope (or desire) to develop.
Thankfully New Orleans is one of the exceptions. There are medical centers, world-class restaurants, hotels, our central business district, and residences all within easy walking distance from the Superdome.
Why does the South not like mass transit?
We're currently expanding the streetcar lines here, but while that is public transit it's hardly mass transit. They're inefficient on their best days and a special hell on their worst.
... but at least we're getting more of them.
posted by komara at 9:38 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
Thankfully New Orleans is one of the exceptions. There are medical centers, world-class restaurants, hotels, our central business district, and residences all within easy walking distance from the Superdome.
Why does the South not like mass transit?
We're currently expanding the streetcar lines here, but while that is public transit it's hardly mass transit. They're inefficient on their best days and a special hell on their worst.
... but at least we're getting more of them.
posted by komara at 9:38 PM on November 12, 2013 [1 favorite]
What, the criminals gonna take a big screen on the train?
It's not just the south. This was literally a comment at a public meeting in Beverly Hills regarding the Purple Line extension. The resident wanted additional security to be posted in the BH stations to re-claim all the stolen goods.
posted by hwyengr at 9:43 PM on November 12, 2013 [9 favorites]
It's not just the south. This was literally a comment at a public meeting in Beverly Hills regarding the Purple Line extension. The resident wanted additional security to be posted in the BH stations to re-claim all the stolen goods.
posted by hwyengr at 9:43 PM on November 12, 2013 [9 favorites]
What the hell is wrong with us?
We're pathologically bored and need constant entertainment through sports etc.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:54 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
We're pathologically bored and need constant entertainment through sports etc.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:54 PM on November 12, 2013 [2 favorites]
During a period when most of the major cities of the US, and some smaller ones, are experiencing downtown growth and revitalization, Atlanta is pretty much stagnating.
Huh. Since I’ve lived here I’ve had the discussion many times about how neighborhoods here actually seem to get revitalized instead of people just talking about how it’s going to happen. I don’t live in town so I’m not an expert.
It's not just the south. This was literally a comment at a public meeting in Beverly Hills regarding the Purple Line extension. The resident wanted additional security to be posted in the BH stations to re-claim all the stolen goods.
You’re doing it wrong. You’re supposed to say only in the South.
posted by bongo_x at 10:14 PM on November 12, 2013
Huh. Since I’ve lived here I’ve had the discussion many times about how neighborhoods here actually seem to get revitalized instead of people just talking about how it’s going to happen. I don’t live in town so I’m not an expert.
It's not just the south. This was literally a comment at a public meeting in Beverly Hills regarding the Purple Line extension. The resident wanted additional security to be posted in the BH stations to re-claim all the stolen goods.
You’re doing it wrong. You’re supposed to say only in the South.
posted by bongo_x at 10:14 PM on November 12, 2013
I really like Turner Field, though the trouble of getting there stops me from going to a lot of games. I find it hard to believe that it wouldn’t be cheaper to fix the traffic and parking problems than to build a new stadium. I’m sick of this crap from sports teams.
posted by bongo_x at 10:17 PM on November 12, 2013
posted by bongo_x at 10:17 PM on November 12, 2013
Take Me Out Of The Ballpark, Charles P. Pierce, Esquire, 12 November 2013
I have a guess. I ran ["how much taxpayers will be responsible for"] through my own mathematical formulae several times and every time the answer came out: A Whole Shitload.posted by ob1quixote at 11:05 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
threeants: "Because black people can use it to get places. Glib, but that's about as close to a historically accurate answer as you're going to get."
See also MARTA definition #3 for supporting evidence of local attitudes towards mass transit. 506 upvotes.
posted by pwnguin at 11:38 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
See also MARTA definition #3 for supporting evidence of local attitudes towards mass transit. 506 upvotes.
posted by pwnguin at 11:38 PM on November 12, 2013 [3 favorites]
Local newscaster Brenda Woods' "Last Word" segment from 12 November 2013 on the Braves move.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:03 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 12:03 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't even need to click that UD link to know what it says. I must have first heard that 30 years ago.
posted by thelonius at 3:35 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 3:35 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
The notion that Cobb County is ponying up zillions for a stadium why furloughing teachers makes my blood boil. In part because here in Pennsyltucky, Corbett is having similar fun destroying a generation's ability to get a decent public education.
Sorry, when did education become not important? I mean, maybe it takes second place to clean drinking water, but sports? I mean, really, what. the. fuck.
posted by angrycat at 3:38 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Sorry, when did education become not important? I mean, maybe it takes second place to clean drinking water, but sports? I mean, really, what. the. fuck.
posted by angrycat at 3:38 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
That's why St. Louis's light rail, for example, only goes out to the airport, and not further (or south) to the exurbs.
And yet, it runs right by the ballpark, and it's absolutely full off exurbians during ballgames.
Well, my Answer to the good people of Atlanta is the same as my answer to the "Chicago" Fire. Sorry, you're not actually in Chicago, and I'm not driving to a match. Do the same. Vote with your money. It may be that nobody in Atlanta actually goes to Braves games.
And, to those mocking the Cubs? Well, they are mock worthy -- but Wrigley is a privately owned stadium that is getting refurbished with no government funds. Then again, in pretty much every way, Wrigley Field is decidedly old fashioned.
It's a shame/crime that league rules prevent it, but I couldn't think of a bigger fuck you than for the City of Atlanta to go buy a major league ball team and bring in into Turner Field, and just think -- all that money would be going to the city!
posted by eriko at 3:46 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
And yet, it runs right by the ballpark, and it's absolutely full off exurbians during ballgames.
Well, my Answer to the good people of Atlanta is the same as my answer to the "Chicago" Fire. Sorry, you're not actually in Chicago, and I'm not driving to a match. Do the same. Vote with your money. It may be that nobody in Atlanta actually goes to Braves games.
And, to those mocking the Cubs? Well, they are mock worthy -- but Wrigley is a privately owned stadium that is getting refurbished with no government funds. Then again, in pretty much every way, Wrigley Field is decidedly old fashioned.
It's a shame/crime that league rules prevent it, but I couldn't think of a bigger fuck you than for the City of Atlanta to go buy a major league ball team and bring in into Turner Field, and just think -- all that money would be going to the city!
posted by eriko at 3:46 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
Because black people can use it to get places. Glib, but that's about as close to a historically accurate answer as you're going to get.
“Take MARTA To Cobb and Rob” (emphasis in original)
Because black people can use it to get places. Glib, but that's about as close to a historically accurate answer as you're going to get.
“Take MARTA To Cobb and Rob” (emphasis in original)
It’s also, of course, about how Georgia Republicans have inherited the racial attitudes of the Dixiecrats. When I was in high school in Cobb County, my state representative (a Dixiecrat/Democrat) offered as his perennial campaign slogan: “Stop Atlanta at the River!”(i.e., the Chattahoochee River, which divides Cobb from Atlanta). Everyone knew exactly what he was talking about. Years later, when there was very brief talk of Cobb County joining the regional MARTA rapid transit system, bumper stickers sprouted in Marietta and Acworth and Kennesaw that said: “Take MARTA To Cobb and Rob.” Again, everyone knew exactly what that was about.posted by zombieflanders at 3:56 AM on November 13, 2013 [11 favorites]
Now I don’t live in Georgia any more, but I am reasonably sure no one thinks MARTA is going to be expanded into Cobb County any time in the near future. So Dendy’s statement was a gratuitous racial slur aimed at assuring his constituents he and the GOP were ever-vigilant about protecting Cobb from those people.
But I’m sure if confronted Dendy would deny it, because, as Pierce says, “nothing is ever about race” unless it’s some terrible slur on the attitudes of conservative white folk.
But putting the Braves in Cobb County means we have to acknowledge Cobb County exists!!
/cabbagetown-kirkwood girl 4eva
posted by Kitteh at 4:34 AM on November 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
/cabbagetown-kirkwood girl 4eva
posted by Kitteh at 4:34 AM on November 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
Eh, anti-Southern stereotyping strikes again. The first phase of Charlotte, NC's light-rail system has been very successful, exceeding ridership expectations from the start and generating big transit-related economic benefits.
I'm a Southerner. I'm not stereotyping. The Charlotte NC light rail is great -- but it runs down one side of the "wedge," the big triangle of white people that makes a racial map of Charlotte look like Pac-Man. The trolley, which is intended to go into the eastern part of Charlotte (mainly black) has been divisive and opposed, with suburbanites accusing Mayor Foxx (black) of paying off the people who got him elected. (Apparently keeping campaign promises is corrupt.) There's also Ballantyne, a lily-white suburb that's within city limits due o NC's previously generous annexation laws, that's currently threatening secession.
posted by sonic meat machine at 4:38 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm a Southerner. I'm not stereotyping. The Charlotte NC light rail is great -- but it runs down one side of the "wedge," the big triangle of white people that makes a racial map of Charlotte look like Pac-Man. The trolley, which is intended to go into the eastern part of Charlotte (mainly black) has been divisive and opposed, with suburbanites accusing Mayor Foxx (black) of paying off the people who got him elected. (Apparently keeping campaign promises is corrupt.) There's also Ballantyne, a lily-white suburb that's within city limits due o NC's previously generous annexation laws, that's currently threatening secession.
posted by sonic meat machine at 4:38 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
I know, right? I love the extensive light-rail system up here in Indianapolis.
oh...wait...
posted by Thorzdad at 5:08 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I know, right? I love the extensive light-rail system up here in Indianapolis.
oh...wait...
posted by Thorzdad at 5:08 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Why does the South not like mass transit?
Eh, anti-Southern stereotyping strikes again. The first phase of Charlotte, NC's light-rail system has been very successful, exceeding ridership expectations from the start and generating big transit-related economic benefits. Here's a 2010 article that summarizes the success (and describes how dumb federal restrictions actually held back the system's growth):
Actually, the light rail in Charlotte only connects Uptown with affluent South Charlotte. The light rail doesn't connect to the public university I attended, which is one of the largest in the state. Construction has been limited because of "the neighborhoods the train would have to go through."
+1 to "hating black people" as the reason.
posted by oceanjesse at 5:35 AM on November 13, 2013
Eh, anti-Southern stereotyping strikes again. The first phase of Charlotte, NC's light-rail system has been very successful, exceeding ridership expectations from the start and generating big transit-related economic benefits. Here's a 2010 article that summarizes the success (and describes how dumb federal restrictions actually held back the system's growth):
Actually, the light rail in Charlotte only connects Uptown with affluent South Charlotte. The light rail doesn't connect to the public university I attended, which is one of the largest in the state. Construction has been limited because of "the neighborhoods the train would have to go through."
+1 to "hating black people" as the reason.
posted by oceanjesse at 5:35 AM on November 13, 2013
Also, this stadium seems like a gigantic waste of money and space. What will they use the old stadium for? A flowerbed? Hosting the Olympics in 2096? Those furloughed teachers are probably pretty darn cynical right now.
posted by oceanjesse at 5:37 AM on November 13, 2013
posted by oceanjesse at 5:37 AM on November 13, 2013
I do not know how precise this is historically or if it is strictly true now, but an interesting perspective can be found in 15 seconds with a google search on (Chomsky Gingrich Cobb):
A small footnote: Cobb County receives more federal subsidies than any suburban county in the country, with two exceptions: Arlington Virginia, effectively part of the Federal Government, and Brevard County Florida, the home of the Kennedy Space Center.
posted by bukvich at 6:02 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
A small footnote: Cobb County receives more federal subsidies than any suburban county in the country, with two exceptions: Arlington Virginia, effectively part of the Federal Government, and Brevard County Florida, the home of the Kennedy Space Center.
posted by bukvich at 6:02 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Panjandrum is an ITP OG.
posted by echocollate at 6:03 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by echocollate at 6:03 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
...google search on (Chomsky Gingrich Cobb):
Ah yes; Cobb County, the folks that gave us Newt Gingrich. That should explain a lot to those who aren't familiar with the area.
posted by TedW at 6:07 AM on November 13, 2013
Ah yes; Cobb County, the folks that gave us Newt Gingrich. That should explain a lot to those who aren't familiar with the area.
posted by TedW at 6:07 AM on November 13, 2013
Yup. That's why St. Louis's light rail, for example, only goes out to the airport, and not further (or south) to the exurbs...literally people said that the train would bring the "bad element" out there to rob their homes. What, the criminals gonna take a big screen on the train?
Funny, the one place in STL where I felt like my car was likely to be broken into: by the MetroLink station at UMSL. (STL Osuwa Taiko used to rehearse there before they got their own space, and a couple people in the group did have their car windows broken there. I'm told that once the director chased some thieves off while brandishing a pair of odaiko bachi, which I would have paid to see.)
posted by Foosnark at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2013
Funny, the one place in STL where I felt like my car was likely to be broken into: by the MetroLink station at UMSL. (STL Osuwa Taiko used to rehearse there before they got their own space, and a couple people in the group did have their car windows broken there. I'm told that once the director chased some thieves off while brandishing a pair of odaiko bachi, which I would have paid to see.)
posted by Foosnark at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2013
I would guess that after a three hour game, people would rather sit in their cosy cars than spend another hour on public transit.
Every time I've taken the subway to/from a ball game, in Boston, New York, and DC, the ride home has been a nightmare, crammed into those cars like sardines. If public transit offered a reasonable amount of cubic space per person it would be great, but I really would rather sit in the car in backed up traffic than be standing for an hour shoved into some stranger's armpit.
posted by JanetLand at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2013
Every time I've taken the subway to/from a ball game, in Boston, New York, and DC, the ride home has been a nightmare, crammed into those cars like sardines. If public transit offered a reasonable amount of cubic space per person it would be great, but I really would rather sit in the car in backed up traffic than be standing for an hour shoved into some stranger's armpit.
posted by JanetLand at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2013
JanetLand
Public transit does offer a reasonable amount of cubic space per person for standard riders (well, the 6 train in New York can be horrible, but that's another story). On game days, however, there are somewhere between 20 and 100 (numbers I totally just made up) times the standard ridership. The options are to either expand the mass transit system to accommodate so many people and have good chunks of it stand empty at other times (kind of like an olympic village) or to simply put more cars on the line at the time and ask people to wait. I view it as similar to asking people to wait in their cars for the hour or three it takes to leave a parking lot after a game/show at one of these stadiums. I do feel sorry for the riders who live in the area and are just trying to get home/get out of there. Maybe living in NYC has made me have less of an issue with this, but I'd rather ride in some discomfort for 20 minutes than sit in a car for an hour and a half, inching forward every minute or two.
posted by Hactar at 6:36 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Public transit does offer a reasonable amount of cubic space per person for standard riders (well, the 6 train in New York can be horrible, but that's another story). On game days, however, there are somewhere between 20 and 100 (numbers I totally just made up) times the standard ridership. The options are to either expand the mass transit system to accommodate so many people and have good chunks of it stand empty at other times (kind of like an olympic village) or to simply put more cars on the line at the time and ask people to wait. I view it as similar to asking people to wait in their cars for the hour or three it takes to leave a parking lot after a game/show at one of these stadiums. I do feel sorry for the riders who live in the area and are just trying to get home/get out of there. Maybe living in NYC has made me have less of an issue with this, but I'd rather ride in some discomfort for 20 minutes than sit in a car for an hour and a half, inching forward every minute or two.
posted by Hactar at 6:36 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
The worst thing about public transit before and after ballgames are the people from the suburbs riding it who have no fucking idea how it works. There's always one dad trying to be funny cracking jokes about how crowded it is, a family that stops right after stepping into the train, blocking access to the rest of the car, and people wearing sports jerseys in public like that is in any way acceptable behavior.
posted by Aizkolari at 6:50 AM on November 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by Aizkolari at 6:50 AM on November 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
Every time I've taken the subway to/from a ball game, in Boston, New York, and DC, the ride home has been a nightmare, crammed into those cars like sardines. If public transit offered a reasonable amount of cubic space per person it would be great, but I really would rather sit in the car in backed up traffic than be standing for an hour shoved into some stranger's armpit.
Because the seats at ballgames are so spacious?
posted by srboisvert at 6:50 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Because the seats at ballgames are so spacious?
posted by srboisvert at 6:50 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
put more cars on the line at the time and ask people to wait. I view it as similar to asking people to wait in their cars for the hour or three it takes to leave a parking lot after a game/show at one of these stadiums.
Yeah, that's definitely where we differ in viewpoint. For me, waiting for a train after a game is just as uncomfortable and crowded as the train itself. In my car, however, I'm sitting, I have air conditioning, I can play the radio, eat a snack, sing, whatever.
My preference is far from ideal -- from the environmental point of view cars cause all kinds of problems -- but I get seriously stressed and upset in packed subways.
posted by JanetLand at 6:51 AM on November 13, 2013
Yeah, that's definitely where we differ in viewpoint. For me, waiting for a train after a game is just as uncomfortable and crowded as the train itself. In my car, however, I'm sitting, I have air conditioning, I can play the radio, eat a snack, sing, whatever.
My preference is far from ideal -- from the environmental point of view cars cause all kinds of problems -- but I get seriously stressed and upset in packed subways.
posted by JanetLand at 6:51 AM on November 13, 2013
I think once you're used to public transit, you get used to the really crowded events in the same way that drivers get used to really bad traffic. I take the train to sporting events in DC fairly often and while leaving is awful, it's usually just three or four stops of wall to wall people, and then it thins out to normal rush hour crowded levels.
One possible factor there is that I'm either going to games at Nationals Park or the Verizon Center, both of which are located in or close to the center of town, rather than out on the periphery like Fed Ex Field. The Green Line from Nationals Park for instance is bad, but only really to Chinatown; after that you split the extra load between the Green and both directions on the Red Line, and it's not really so bad. The ride from Fed Ex Field is much longer until you get to a transfer to ease the crowding. Those suburban stadiums that are good for drivers tend to be worse for mass transit users, even when they are transit accessible.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2013
One possible factor there is that I'm either going to games at Nationals Park or the Verizon Center, both of which are located in or close to the center of town, rather than out on the periphery like Fed Ex Field. The Green Line from Nationals Park for instance is bad, but only really to Chinatown; after that you split the extra load between the Green and both directions on the Red Line, and it's not really so bad. The ride from Fed Ex Field is much longer until you get to a transfer to ease the crowding. Those suburban stadiums that are good for drivers tend to be worse for mass transit users, even when they are transit accessible.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2013
Opposition to MARTA has been racially charged for ages. It seems common to refer to MARTA as Moving African-Americans Rapidly Through Atlanta among some sectors of the population.
I'm glad that Atlanta is rebuffing the attempts at extortion but not exactly happy that a suburb will get sucked into the aspirational game of attracting a stadium with the promise of jobs which will probably just in a massive increase in revenues going to the Braves.
Based upon other recent stadiums I would assume it will primarily be paid through sales tax (regressive Yeah!) bonds, hotel and rental car charges, and crazy parking. Improvements to the highways will go through the Georgia DOT, etc.
Eventually cities will realize that giving away the farm to hold on to team especially when there are only so many viable television markets for teams to exploit is a sucker's bet but apparently local politicians don't read academic literature that kinda undermines the perceived benefits of these deals.
posted by vuron at 6:58 AM on November 13, 2013
I'm glad that Atlanta is rebuffing the attempts at extortion but not exactly happy that a suburb will get sucked into the aspirational game of attracting a stadium with the promise of jobs which will probably just in a massive increase in revenues going to the Braves.
Based upon other recent stadiums I would assume it will primarily be paid through sales tax (regressive Yeah!) bonds, hotel and rental car charges, and crazy parking. Improvements to the highways will go through the Georgia DOT, etc.
Eventually cities will realize that giving away the farm to hold on to team especially when there are only so many viable television markets for teams to exploit is a sucker's bet but apparently local politicians don't read academic literature that kinda undermines the perceived benefits of these deals.
posted by vuron at 6:58 AM on November 13, 2013
When Shepherd used to come visit me in Atlanta, he was absolutely gleeful to ride the MARTA. One day while I was at work, he rode all of the lines to their destinations and gushed to me about how clean the cars were, but it was sad the cars were mostly empty and no one seemed to like using it. My response is that I personally wanted to like MARTA but aside from the airport, it never seemed to go anywhere terribly useful. Still, it was nice having him visit because then he helped me enjoy and utilize it more into my routine after he left.
Aw. I miss Atlanta.
posted by Kitteh at 7:02 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Aw. I miss Atlanta.
posted by Kitteh at 7:02 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
eriko: "And, to those mocking the Cubs? Well, they are mock worthy -- but Wrigley is a privately owned stadium that is getting refurbished with no government funds. Then again, in pretty much every way, Wrigley Field is decidedly old fashioned."
Even then, they still managed to try a weak round of extortion by briefly threatening to move to Rosemont or somewhere. Presumably someone on the business side took one look at the revenue numbers for a last-place team in a crummy new stadium out in the suburbs who'd just betrayed most of its devoted fanbase and then told Ricketts to suck it up and pay for it himself, but I'd be happier if they'd gotten there internally without making public comments about how viable the suburbs were.
posted by Copronymus at 7:11 AM on November 13, 2013
Even then, they still managed to try a weak round of extortion by briefly threatening to move to Rosemont or somewhere. Presumably someone on the business side took one look at the revenue numbers for a last-place team in a crummy new stadium out in the suburbs who'd just betrayed most of its devoted fanbase and then told Ricketts to suck it up and pay for it himself, but I'd be happier if they'd gotten there internally without making public comments about how viable the suburbs were.
posted by Copronymus at 7:11 AM on November 13, 2013
skepticallypleased: "Why does the South not like mass transit?"
Racism. To a lesser extent, poverty.
Generally speaking, because minorities and poor people are perceived by Whites in many Southern cities to be the only groups who take mass transit. In Atlanta, minorities = African Americans. In many cities in Texas, minorities = "Mexicans" (and other Latinos) as well as African Americans.
And heaven forbid they be allowed to travel into Caucasian areas, lest they spread crime and destruction, and intermarry with the womenfolk. *eyeroll*
posted by zarq at 7:27 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Racism. To a lesser extent, poverty.
Generally speaking, because minorities and poor people are perceived by Whites in many Southern cities to be the only groups who take mass transit. In Atlanta, minorities = African Americans. In many cities in Texas, minorities = "Mexicans" (and other Latinos) as well as African Americans.
And heaven forbid they be allowed to travel into Caucasian areas, lest they spread crime and destruction, and intermarry with the womenfolk. *eyeroll*
posted by zarq at 7:27 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
See, all I can think of when I hear about Cobb County is The Big Bossman.
And even he had his price for the Million Dollar Man.
Stolen from myself on SportsFilter.
posted by Etrigan at 7:39 AM on November 13, 2013
And even he had his price for the Million Dollar Man.
Stolen from myself on SportsFilter.
posted by Etrigan at 7:39 AM on November 13, 2013
And one of the best things about taking public transit after a sporting event is not having to monitor your alcohol consumption quite as carefully as you would if you had to drive after the game.
posted by gyc at 7:40 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by gyc at 7:40 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
As long as Atlanta proper still has Magic City everything will be ok. The Barves were a terrible draw at the Ted, they'll be a terrible (but more white) draw in Cobb. I'm shocked that after the fiasco in Miami and the disaster with the Nationals/Lerners in DC public financing is still happening for baseball stadiums. Enjoy the traffic and the terrible baseball.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 7:44 AM on November 13, 2013
posted by playertobenamedlater at 7:44 AM on November 13, 2013
giving away the farm to hold on to team especially when there are only so many viable television markets for teams to exploit
This is true, and I'm not defending the move in any way, but Atlanta lost a sports team - the Thrashers - to Winnipeg two years ago. They're probably a little sensitive, and I'm sure Barves management used that to their advantage.
posted by troika at 7:45 AM on November 13, 2013
This is true, and I'm not defending the move in any way, but Atlanta lost a sports team - the Thrashers - to Winnipeg two years ago. They're probably a little sensitive, and I'm sure Barves management used that to their advantage.
posted by troika at 7:45 AM on November 13, 2013
Why does the South not like mass transit?
I know, right? I love the extensive light-rail system up here in Indianapolis.
oh...wait...
posted by Thorzdad at 9:08 AM on November 13 [+] [!]
Oh come on. Indiana is politically pretty darn Southern. We're the only state where Republicans gained seats in the last election. We've got the politics of the South without the charm or good food.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:46 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I know, right? I love the extensive light-rail system up here in Indianapolis.
oh...wait...
posted by Thorzdad at 9:08 AM on November 13 [+] [!]
Oh come on. Indiana is politically pretty darn Southern. We're the only state where Republicans gained seats in the last election. We've got the politics of the South without the charm or good food.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:46 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Because the seats at ballgames are so spacious?
No complaints about the seats at our Minor League Class A Short Season franchise from me... And... Brown's Brewing Oatmeal Stout...
posted by mikelieman at 7:47 AM on November 13, 2013
No complaints about the seats at our Minor League Class A Short Season franchise from me... And... Brown's Brewing Oatmeal Stout...
posted by mikelieman at 7:47 AM on November 13, 2013
leotrotsky: "We've got the politics of the South without the charm or good food."
Indiana is the only place I've ever had persimmon pudding, which was delicious. Although I don't know if it's unique to your state.
posted by zarq at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2013
Indiana is the only place I've ever had persimmon pudding, which was delicious. Although I don't know if it's unique to your state.
posted by zarq at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2013
Persimmon pudding is an Indiana specialty which I've always considered superior to the official state sugar cream pie, and we've got pawpaws, and pork tenderloin sandwiches, too.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:54 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 7:54 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Whoa, someone clearly hasn't been Downtown in the past half-decade, or really any intown neighborhood in the past decade. It's a huge change from the ghost town it was just a few years ago and an even bigger change from where it was in the post-Olympics slump.
Thank you Ikea and Atlantic Station.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Thank you Ikea and Atlantic Station.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
We're currently expanding the streetcar lines here, but while that is public transit it's hardly mass transit. They're inefficient on their best days and a special hell on their worst.
I'd like to give a special shoutout to the St. Charles line which, as I recall, would just stop on the tracks whenever the rain was too heavy. But that wasn't my biggest disappointment with New Orleans transit. No, my biggest disappointment was learning that you had to take a bus to Desire.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'd like to give a special shoutout to the St. Charles line which, as I recall, would just stop on the tracks whenever the rain was too heavy. But that wasn't my biggest disappointment with New Orleans transit. No, my biggest disappointment was learning that you had to take a bus to Desire.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:05 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
A small footnote: Cobb County receives more federal subsidies than any suburban county in the country, with two exceptions: Arlington Virginia, effectively part of the Federal Government, and Brevard County Florida, the home of the Kennedy Space Center.
Possibly because of Dobbins ARB and the Lockheed Martin plant where they built the F-22 and are building the F-35 (and is the primary maintenance facility for the C-5 Galaxy, C-130J and P-3 Orion fleets), all of which are multi-billion dollar federal projects, and which Chomsky even mentions. I mean, Newt is an embarrassment and Cobb is the poster child for suburban wastelands, but I fail to see why this fact is somehow particularly conspiratorial.
posted by kjs3 at 8:51 AM on November 13, 2013
Possibly because of Dobbins ARB and the Lockheed Martin plant where they built the F-22 and are building the F-35 (and is the primary maintenance facility for the C-5 Galaxy, C-130J and P-3 Orion fleets), all of which are multi-billion dollar federal projects, and which Chomsky even mentions. I mean, Newt is an embarrassment and Cobb is the poster child for suburban wastelands, but I fail to see why this fact is somehow particularly conspiratorial.
posted by kjs3 at 8:51 AM on November 13, 2013
JanetLand: "Every time I've taken the subway to/from a ball game, in Boston, New York, and DC, the ride home has been a nightmare, crammed into those cars like sardines. If public transit offered a reasonable amount of cubic space per person it would be great, but I really would rather sit in the car in backed up traffic than be standing for an hour shoved into some stranger's armpit."
It's not the fault of the transportation system -- the passengers insist on shoving themselves in rather than just waiting for the next subway train.
(I am home and already finishing a beer by the time the Phillies fans who drive have made it out of the parking lot.)
posted by desuetude at 8:59 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's not the fault of the transportation system -- the passengers insist on shoving themselves in rather than just waiting for the next subway train.
(I am home and already finishing a beer by the time the Phillies fans who drive have made it out of the parking lot.)
posted by desuetude at 8:59 AM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
During a period when most of the major cities of the US, and some smaller ones, are experiencing downtown growth and revitalization, Atlanta is pretty much stagnating.
Says the guy looking down his nose from North Carolina. Those of us living here don't particularly agree with you.
posted by kjs3 at 8:59 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Says the guy looking down his nose from North Carolina. Those of us living here don't particularly agree with you.
posted by kjs3 at 8:59 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
So, since they're moving, are they gonna do anything about the hella racist name/mascot/chants?
posted by klangklangston at 9:01 AM on November 13, 2013
posted by klangklangston at 9:01 AM on November 13, 2013
So, since they're moving, are they gonna do anything about the hella racist name/mascot/chants?
What? No! Haven't you been paying attention? This is Cobb County! If anything the name/mascot and chants are going to be MORE racist!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:06 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
What? No! Haven't you been paying attention? This is Cobb County! If anything the name/mascot and chants are going to be MORE racist!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:06 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
The local satirists are at least having a good time: A desperate trip into the ruins of Turner Field. Meanwhile, Mayor unveils plan to add 8 new Falcons stadiums.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
octothorpe: "One of the campaign promises of my city's mayor elect was that he won't approve giveaways from the city to the sports teams. I'm really hoping that he keeps that since the previous mayors gave the three teams anything they wanted."
I have high hopes for Peduto, and would have voted for him if I lived in the city limits, but both the Penguins and Pirates had come within a hair's breadth of leaving town. And not into the suburbs, to another state. I am not happy about public funding of stadiums, but I think they have had positive effects on their neighborhoods. PNC/Heinz has led to a ton of activity on the North Shore, and tearing down the Civic Arena at least offers the potential of reversing the harm building it did to the Hill District (especially with Peduto in office).
Again, I agree we're being extorted, and I'd much rather team owners paid for this stuff themselves and public money went to public stuff. But Pittsburgh is a sports mad city, and I think there have been overall positive effects for the city from these new facilities.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2013
I have high hopes for Peduto, and would have voted for him if I lived in the city limits, but both the Penguins and Pirates had come within a hair's breadth of leaving town. And not into the suburbs, to another state. I am not happy about public funding of stadiums, but I think they have had positive effects on their neighborhoods. PNC/Heinz has led to a ton of activity on the North Shore, and tearing down the Civic Arena at least offers the potential of reversing the harm building it did to the Hill District (especially with Peduto in office).
Again, I agree we're being extorted, and I'd much rather team owners paid for this stuff themselves and public money went to public stuff. But Pittsburgh is a sports mad city, and I think there have been overall positive effects for the city from these new facilities.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2013
that's currently threatening secession.
I just. Do they not realize that this is like standing in front of someone who dislikes you and threatening to punch yourself in the face if you don't get your way?
posted by elizardbits at 9:36 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just. Do they not realize that this is like standing in front of someone who dislikes you and threatening to punch yourself in the face if you don't get your way?
posted by elizardbits at 9:36 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
How will this have an Atlanta address if it is not in Atlanta? Will it be something like the Anaheim Angels claiming to somehow still be from LA?
posted by Hactar at 9:47 AM on November 13, 2013
posted by Hactar at 9:47 AM on November 13, 2013
I think once you're used to public transit, you get used to the really crowded events in the same way that drivers get used to really bad traffic
Last year's Chicago Reader had a best of list that included the feeling of relief when the L train finally made it past the Wrigley field stop as one of the Best Feeling you can have in Chicago or something like that.
posted by srboisvert at 10:04 AM on November 13, 2013
Last year's Chicago Reader had a best of list that included the feeling of relief when the L train finally made it past the Wrigley field stop as one of the Best Feeling you can have in Chicago or something like that.
posted by srboisvert at 10:04 AM on November 13, 2013
How will this have an Atlanta address if it is not in Atlanta?
The city of Atlanta currently spans two counties, DeKalb and Fulton. I suppose we can consider Cobb an honorary Atlanta county on game-day.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:06 AM on November 13, 2013
The city of Atlanta currently spans two counties, DeKalb and Fulton. I suppose we can consider Cobb an honorary Atlanta county on game-day.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:06 AM on November 13, 2013
Oh, and remember the last line of the National Anthem is:
And the home of the Bravessssssss.
I shit you not.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:07 AM on November 13, 2013
And the home of the Bravessssssss.
I shit you not.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:07 AM on November 13, 2013
Keep in mind that the address (the official name of the USPS zip code) and the municipality are not necessarily identical. For example, I live in a quite small borough with a certain name. The name of the post office/zip code is that same name. That means that there are lots of other places around here that are different municipalities, but that use my town's name as their post office name.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:12 AM on November 13, 2013
posted by Chrysostom at 10:12 AM on November 13, 2013
So, since they're moving, are they gonna do anything about the hella racist name/mascot/chants?
The new mascot could be a Big Chicken!
posted by TedW at 10:21 AM on November 13, 2013
How will this have an Atlanta address if it is not in Atlanta?
I'd like to introduce you to the Washington Redskins, aka the LANDOVER FORESKINZ.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 10:24 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'd like to introduce you to the Washington Redskins, aka the LANDOVER FORESKINZ.
posted by playertobenamedlater at 10:24 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Why does the South not like mass transit?" - For Atlanta specifically, if you don't have a car to drive to a Park'n'Ride or don't live walking distance from a train station, iow you must take at least one bus, then Marta sucks bigtime as a mass transit system.
posted by Ardiril at 10:25 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Ardiril at 10:25 AM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
For those who don't think this affects you, just remember that according to recent estimates the entire US will be part of the Atlanta metro area by 2050.
posted by ckape at 10:51 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by ckape at 10:51 AM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Take Me Out Of The Ballpark, Charles P. Pierce, Esquire, 12 November 2013
I have a guess. I ran ["how much taxpayers will be responsible for"] through my own mathematical formulae several times and every time the answer came out: A Whole Shitload.
Can I just say that Pierce is a goddamn national treasure? The man cuts through bullshit like a giant, shit-cutting butter knife.
posted by gern at 11:08 AM on November 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
I have a guess. I ran ["how much taxpayers will be responsible for"] through my own mathematical formulae several times and every time the answer came out: A Whole Shitload.
Can I just say that Pierce is a goddamn national treasure? The man cuts through bullshit like a giant, shit-cutting butter knife.
posted by gern at 11:08 AM on November 13, 2013 [6 favorites]
It'd be too funny if this were the move that finally got MARTA expanded into Cobb County. Because the howling over traffic, it will be intense.
Just keep building highways, Georgia! You'll lick that traffic problem someday.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 12:07 PM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Just keep building highways, Georgia! You'll lick that traffic problem someday.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 12:07 PM on November 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
By 2020, cities will actually get into the sports business.
They're certainly spending enough money on them.
posted by effugas at 12:35 PM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
They're certainly spending enough money on them.
posted by effugas at 12:35 PM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
What will they use the old stadium for?
In case there is ever a Promise Keeper's revival, Braves and Falcons games, and a Kool and The Gang reunion, all on the same day, they could handle it.
posted by thelonius at 12:40 PM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
In case there is ever a Promise Keeper's revival, Braves and Falcons games, and a Kool and The Gang reunion, all on the same day, they could handle it.
posted by thelonius at 12:40 PM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
I still follow many professional athletic teams but absolutely hate the race to extort every possible dollar out of fans and governments (so basically fans and their unwilling neighbors). Each crappy move a team or league makes leads to a No Money For You policy, the severity and duration of which is correlated to the seriousness of the offense weighted by my appreciation for the underlying sport. There are a complex set of rules and levels of participation that can be applied to leagues as well as individual teams within leagues. I've got it all down in a spreadsheet if you'd like to look it over.
I'll need to review my support level for the Atlanta Braves but I'm pretty sure they've never gotten any higher than the "I don't care enough to actively root against you" level anyway.
posted by Fezboy! at 1:05 PM on November 13, 2013
I'll need to review my support level for the Atlanta Braves but I'm pretty sure they've never gotten any higher than the "I don't care enough to actively root against you" level anyway.
posted by Fezboy! at 1:05 PM on November 13, 2013
I'm okay with a team moving ONCE. But blowing off Boston, Milwaukee, and now the city of Atlanta? These guys are on my list.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:29 PM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 1:29 PM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Can I just say that Pierce is a goddamn national treasure? The man cuts through bullshit like a giant, shit-cutting butter knife.
I would have gone with katana or chainsaw but you are 100% right about this.
posted by Aizkolari at 2:19 PM on November 13, 2013
I would have gone with katana or chainsaw but you are 100% right about this.
posted by Aizkolari at 2:19 PM on November 13, 2013
Ahh, Cobb County. Birthplace of the cobb loaf. Cobb & Co. Corn of cobb. Cobblestones. The deadly cobbra.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:37 PM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:37 PM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yeah, Staples in DT LA has been a boon to development in a formerly pretty blighted part of the city. Of course, the folks who built Staples Center also bought up a lot of the surrounding real estate themselves before they kicked off the project.
Privately financed, mostly.
Not just mostly. The city charter for Los Angeles requires some ridiculous threshold of voter approval for using public funds on sports stadiums which means it will never happen.
Although, there are some loopholes. In the case of the proposed "Farmers Field" football stadium next to Staples, the City would help out via bonds with building out part of the LA Convention Center that would replace the portion demolished for the stadium.
posted by sideshow at 2:51 PM on November 13, 2013
Privately financed, mostly.
Not just mostly. The city charter for Los Angeles requires some ridiculous threshold of voter approval for using public funds on sports stadiums which means it will never happen.
Although, there are some loopholes. In the case of the proposed "Farmers Field" football stadium next to Staples, the City would help out via bonds with building out part of the LA Convention Center that would replace the portion demolished for the stadium.
posted by sideshow at 2:51 PM on November 13, 2013
No, my biggest disappointment was learning that you had to take a bus to Desire.
I'm confused... actually getting to Desire wasn't your biggest disappointment? Or was the mugging exactly what you hoped for?
(Once again, I kid. Slightly. As a stupid kid I took the bus to Desire Projects in the 90s. No mugging, but was politely informed by the bus driver that getting off and exploring was not in my best interest.)
posted by 1f2frfbf at 3:26 PM on November 13, 2013
I'm confused... actually getting to Desire wasn't your biggest disappointment? Or was the mugging exactly what you hoped for?
(Once again, I kid. Slightly. As a stupid kid I took the bus to Desire Projects in the 90s. No mugging, but was politely informed by the bus driver that getting off and exploring was not in my best interest.)
posted by 1f2frfbf at 3:26 PM on November 13, 2013
By 2020, cities will actually get into the sports business.
Actually, most if not all major sports leagues flat out forbid municipalities from owning teams. Those that do were grandfathered in before Congressional anti-trust exemption.
posted by absalom at 3:37 PM on November 13, 2013
Actually, most if not all major sports leagues flat out forbid municipalities from owning teams. Those that do were grandfathered in before Congressional anti-trust exemption.
posted by absalom at 3:37 PM on November 13, 2013
Take Me Out To The Suburbs
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:00 PM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:00 PM on November 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
absalom,
Oh, no question. Which is why it'll be a new league, and either a new sport, or soccer. I could totally see cities buying out MLS.
The economics don't work out to allow this sort of extortion. Not indefinitely, anyway.
posted by effugas at 7:53 PM on November 13, 2013
Oh, no question. Which is why it'll be a new league, and either a new sport, or soccer. I could totally see cities buying out MLS.
The economics don't work out to allow this sort of extortion. Not indefinitely, anyway.
posted by effugas at 7:53 PM on November 13, 2013
If you look at almost every large stadium in America, you'll see that the surrounding neighborhoods are almost totally blasted urban craters, with no real hope (or desire) to develop.Wow - I guess my town (Santa Clara) is bucking the trend, then, because Levi's Stadium is going up in a neighborhood exactly the opposite of a 'totally blasted urban crater'.
posted by Ochiee at 8:18 PM on November 13, 2013
On Braves deal, Cobb officials act like they have something to hide, Jay Bookman, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 13 November 2013
In less than two weeks, the Cobb County Commission is scheduled to give final approval to a Braves stadium financing scheme — including a reported public subsidy of $450 million — that few people have seen and that according to insiders doesn’t even exist yetposted by ob1quixote at 10:29 PM on November 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
A smart friend of mine who follows the Braves closely is skeptical that the deal will work out. Cobb County is so anti-tax, it's hard to imagine them footing the public funding for this. Apparently there have been some mumblings about a private partnership but no details. Interesting situation.
posted by exogenous at 9:36 AM on November 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by exogenous at 9:36 AM on November 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Re: extortion et al.
The number of available teams is limited by the leagues, and you can't just get one when your city decides it wants one. I think it's more protection than extortion. "Nice Sonics team you got there...It'd be a shame if something happened to them..."(Thunder rumbles)
Here in Seattle, despite our loathing of David Stern, we still are going crazy to try to get an NBA team back. And regarding buying up surrounding land...BINGO! Chris Hansen bought up ALL the land around where he had already bought the land to put up his stadium. It was industrial for the most part, and when it's developed, he will make billions from it. BUT, the NBA would much rather keep on having cities pay for their facilities, so it sets a bad precedent for them.
But even in publically financed venues, the revitalization of the surrounding areas has been worth a ton. As long as you have the tenant.
posted by Windopaene at 9:49 AM on November 14, 2013
The number of available teams is limited by the leagues, and you can't just get one when your city decides it wants one. I think it's more protection than extortion. "Nice Sonics team you got there...It'd be a shame if something happened to them..."(Thunder rumbles)
Here in Seattle, despite our loathing of David Stern, we still are going crazy to try to get an NBA team back. And regarding buying up surrounding land...BINGO! Chris Hansen bought up ALL the land around where he had already bought the land to put up his stadium. It was industrial for the most part, and when it's developed, he will make billions from it. BUT, the NBA would much rather keep on having cities pay for their facilities, so it sets a bad precedent for them.
But even in publically financed venues, the revitalization of the surrounding areas has been worth a ton. As long as you have the tenant.
posted by Windopaene at 9:49 AM on November 14, 2013
I just saw this with details on the plan. The Braves are to pay 55% ($372 million) and the county the remaining $300 million, financed mostly by bonds with a plan to repay those using "reallocation of existing Property Tax Revenues" and some new taxes on businesses.
posted by exogenous at 11:27 AM on November 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by exogenous at 11:27 AM on November 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
The local political blog, Peach Pundit, is already dissecting the financing for the bonds reported just above. It looks like it will be a combination of Cobb's portion of the hotel/motel tax, about $8.6M in redirected property tax revenue, a new 3% rental car tax, a $3/night "special services" fee on hotel rooms in the vicinity of the new stadium, and additional property taxes in a "special services tax district." All of this adds up to about $18M a year to service the debt on Cobb's part of the deal. The commenters on Peach Pundit are usually pretty well informed or insiders; everyone is focusing on the $8.6M in redirected tax revenue. As noted by a couple of comments upthread here, Cobb just furloughed teachers to save $9M, so no one is seeing where the "extra" $8.6M is coming from.
posted by kovacs at 6:50 PM on November 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by kovacs at 6:50 PM on November 14, 2013 [3 favorites]
Braves Promise Forced March to New Stadium will be, Atlanta Banana, 12 November 2013Trail of Smiles
The Atlanta Braves baseball team announced yesterday a surprise move from Turner Field, situated near the center of town, to Cobb County, situated near the city’s landfills. The move comes as a surprise to fans, who already struggle to get to the stadium via the city’s nearly nonexistent mass transit.
Braves Hurry to Pack their Stuff Before City Comes Home from Work, Atlanta Banana, 14 November 2013
“This is all on the level, and the city of Atlanta knows it’s over,” said Braves spokesperson Noah Moe Parkin, “But it would still be super awkward to do this right in front of the City’s face.”posted by ob1quixote at 11:59 PM on November 14, 2013
Here's How Cobb County Will Pay For The Braves' Ballpark, Barry Petchesky, Deadspin, 14 November 2013
The numbers in this article match the information from the Peach Pundit kovacs posted above. There is this interesting tidbit though:
Because there are no new taxes here outside of the self-taxing CID, the County Commission can approve the proposal without a countywide referendum. Cobb County residents will cover nearly half of the Braves' ballpark without getting to vote on it.Ain't no dirty politics like dirty Georgia politics, y'all.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:32 AM on November 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
As noted by a couple of comments upthread here, Cobb just furloughed teachers to save $9M, so no one is seeing where the "extra" $8.6M is coming from.
9,000,000 > 8,600,000, with 400,000 to spare!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:21 AM on November 15, 2013
9,000,000 > 8,600,000, with 400,000 to spare!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 3:21 AM on November 15, 2013
Wait a team with a mascot that alludes to Native Americans is talking about walking a 'trail of smiles' to relocate?
Somebody please slap a bunch of people for me I have a headache
posted by angrycat at 4:10 AM on November 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
Somebody please slap a bunch of people for me I have a headache
posted by angrycat at 4:10 AM on November 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
For those who don't think this affects you, just remember that according to recent estimates the entire US will be part of the Atlanta metro area by 2050.
Well, of course Atlanta has to expand, just look at this research from 2009 that shows that by DragonCon 2023, the entire population of Atlanta will be attending. If the entire city is already going, who's going to come down to the parade Saturday morning and gawk at all these silly nerds in their silly costumes?
posted by radwolf76 at 8:13 AM on November 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well, of course Atlanta has to expand, just look at this research from 2009 that shows that by DragonCon 2023, the entire population of Atlanta will be attending. If the entire city is already going, who's going to come down to the parade Saturday morning and gawk at all these silly nerds in their silly costumes?
posted by radwolf76 at 8:13 AM on November 15, 2013 [2 favorites]
Wait a team with a mascot that alludes to Native Americans is talking about walking a 'trail of smiles' to relocate?
Just to save your noggin: the Atlanta Banana is the ATL's own version of The Onion.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 8:30 AM on November 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Just to save your noggin: the Atlanta Banana is the ATL's own version of The Onion.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 8:30 AM on November 15, 2013 [3 favorites]
Braves' wishlist for Turner Field development included limits on nearby restaurants, 8,600-car parking deck, Thomas Wheatley, Creative Loafing, 15 November 2013
posted by ob1quixote at 1:39 PM on November 15, 2013
"Braves' wishlist for Turner Field development included limits on nearby restaurants, 8,600-car parking deck", Thomas Wheatley, Creative Loafing, 15 November 2013
The thing that jumps out at me is that the public contributions for stadiums are promoted as being worthwhile because they supposedly revitalize run-down areas, create opportunities for new businesses, increase tax revenues from them, etc. But here you have the team making demands to specifically forbid restaurants, fast food, coffee shops-- the very establishments which were supposed to benefit from these massive expenditures.
posted by alexei at 2:41 PM on November 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
The thing that jumps out at me is that the public contributions for stadiums are promoted as being worthwhile because they supposedly revitalize run-down areas, create opportunities for new businesses, increase tax revenues from them, etc. But here you have the team making demands to specifically forbid restaurants, fast food, coffee shops-- the very establishments which were supposed to benefit from these massive expenditures.
posted by alexei at 2:41 PM on November 15, 2013 [5 favorites]
Details emerge about Braves' secretive stadium deal, developer land grab in surrounding area, Max Blau, Creative Loafing, 18 November 2013
posted by ob1quixote at 11:00 AM on November 18, 2013
The Boys of Summerhill, Mayor of Ponce, 15 November 2013
It’s time to accept the fact that the Ted Turner version of the Braves that we grew up with is dead. Replaced with a grim, soulless corporate owned mediocrity of a team that will always be just good enough to be profitable, but never good enough to ever be truly proud of. It’s fitting that the zombie Braves are lurching towards the suburbs, where the other dead-eyed walking corpses that have given up on life are.posted by ob1quixote at 11:33 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Braves’ move is the latest blow to blacks in baseball, Goldie Taylor, The Grio, 18 November 2013
When I was coming up in the ’70s and ’80s, the baseball field and the stands were as integrated as any time in history. It’s different today. Salon.com notes a 2005 Harris Poll in which “47 percent of African-Americans named pro football their favorite sport; only 6 percent chose baseball.”posted by ob1quixote at 12:27 PM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
“Baseball has become an afterthought in black America,” says Salon writer Rob Ruck. He’s right. Major League Baseball has become a white man’s game.
Again.
New Braves stadium being built to cure “inadequate parking” will feature 2,500 fewer parking spaces
posted by Chrysostom at 1:20 PM on November 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 1:20 PM on November 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is going to turn into a clusterfuck of epic proportions. When I’m on the same side as Libertarians and the Tea Party there is a big fuck up going on.
posted by bongo_x at 4:11 PM on November 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by bongo_x at 4:11 PM on November 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
And the Sierra Club.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:30 PM on November 19, 2013
posted by hydropsyche at 4:30 PM on November 19, 2013
To be fair, the stadium is going to hold 10,000 fewer fans too.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:50 PM on November 19, 2013
posted by ob1quixote at 7:50 PM on November 19, 2013
Do they sell out the old stadium? If not then that doesn't matter.
posted by Mitheral at 6:31 AM on November 20, 2013
posted by Mitheral at 6:31 AM on November 20, 2013
Mitheral: “Do they sell out the old stadium? If not then that doesn't matter.”Not every night, but often enough. The presumption is that they're reducing the number of seats so that they will sell out every night.
Now we have this from a local television station: POLL: Atlantans OK with Atlanta Braves move to Cobb Co. The top-line result is that 46% of 500 residents of the 10-county metropolitian area polled supported the move to Cobb county
posted by ob1quixote at 10:18 PM on November 20, 2013
Braves stadium deal is so classic Atlanta
That may seem illogical to some people, but again, those “some people” fail to appreciate the genius of the Atlanta way. If taxpayers were fully aware beforehand of potential problems and the cost of fixing them, they might balk at the deal that their betters have agreed upon. It’s a lot easier to give taxpayers the bill later, once it’s too late to turn back.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:06 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
That may seem illogical to some people, but again, those “some people” fail to appreciate the genius of the Atlanta way. If taxpayers were fully aware beforehand of potential problems and the cost of fixing them, they might balk at the deal that their betters have agreed upon. It’s a lot easier to give taxpayers the bill later, once it’s too late to turn back.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:06 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
Cobb Commissioners approve partial funding for future Braves stadium by a vote of 4-1.
posted by kovacs at 5:42 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by kovacs at 5:42 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
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posted by bruceo at 5:59 PM on November 12, 2013 [24 favorites]