We are quite literally looking for a person that can do four jobs
November 26, 2013 1:30 PM Subscribe
On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star. "We want someone who can code well in multiple front-end and back-end languages, maintain servers and other hardware including load balancing and database admin, do general office IT, manage your own projects, deal with the fact that one of our co-founders is a rampaging trans-phobic asshole, and be on call 24/7 though we hope not to bug you too much in the middle of the night." Also comes with other benefits.
Saw this on the Twitter earlier. Seems very much of a piece with this FPP from a couple days ago.
posted by PMdixon at 1:34 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by PMdixon at 1:34 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this kind of cracked me up because I didn't see it coming but I should have. Wealthy owners of a company want to exploit fake loyalty/passion buttons to get work for a tiny fraction of its worth so they can have Even Larger Bank Accounts. Surprise!
posted by kavasa at 1:38 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by kavasa at 1:38 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
I like the Kawaiikochans take on this.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:40 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:40 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
So the penny arcade guys are joking now about how trans phobic they are. That's just appalling.
posted by zoo at 1:44 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by zoo at 1:44 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
Replace "Penny Arcade" with "the movies" and this is my life.
posted by incessant at 1:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by incessant at 1:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've given the PA guys a lot of slack over the last couple of years. I defended them on the "dickwolves" thing because I honestly think it was valid, if crude commentary on the nature of so many MMO quests. I gave them the benefit of the doubt on the trans stuff because I figured it was coming more from a place of ignorance than, shall we say, informed bigotry. And, just to be clear, a big part of all that is because I have enormous respect for what they've done for the larger gaming community - and in particular for the existence and success of Child's Play, for which I still have enormous affection. And just to be clear, I absolutely consider both of those insensitivities to be much worse than this, on their own.
But this is the straw that breaks this camel's back. This is 100% indefensible; there is no ignorance here, there is no debate to be had about how far is too far for a joke. This is a group that's famous for having successfully monetized the fuck out of an activity that is infamously hard to make a living off of, having the gall to suggest they aren't money-driven. This is outright exploitative and I can't play devil's advocate for even a minute.
I'm done with these assholes.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [58 favorites]
But this is the straw that breaks this camel's back. This is 100% indefensible; there is no ignorance here, there is no debate to be had about how far is too far for a joke. This is a group that's famous for having successfully monetized the fuck out of an activity that is infamously hard to make a living off of, having the gall to suggest they aren't money-driven. This is outright exploitative and I can't play devil's advocate for even a minute.
I'm done with these assholes.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [58 favorites]
Posting that job listing is like a public service because it is entirely composed of red flags that can be used as examples of what to avoid.
The bit about how they don't pay much so they can put the savings into a fuseball table or something was the best.
posted by Artw at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2013 [31 favorites]
The bit about how they don't pay much so they can put the savings into a fuseball table or something was the best.
posted by Artw at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2013 [31 favorites]
I find it hard to believe that there are many people out there who can code well in multiple front-end and back-end languages, do server maintenance and database admin, and so on, who don't know what they're actually worth.
So, it is perfectly possible that Penny Arcade will get somebody starry-eyed at the prospect of working with Gabe and Tycho, who undersells themself for the cool factor...
And it is perfectly possible that Penny Arcade will end up with someone who's pretty decent at one of those skills and good about lying about the rest, and everyone will learn a valuable lesson about getting what you pay for.
I really hope it's the latter.
Even more if they write a disingenuous comic about the dangerous undersupply of coders.
posted by Jeanne at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2013 [16 favorites]
So, it is perfectly possible that Penny Arcade will get somebody starry-eyed at the prospect of working with Gabe and Tycho, who undersells themself for the cool factor...
And it is perfectly possible that Penny Arcade will end up with someone who's pretty decent at one of those skills and good about lying about the rest, and everyone will learn a valuable lesson about getting what you pay for.
I really hope it's the latter.
Even more if they write a disingenuous comic about the dangerous undersupply of coders.
posted by Jeanne at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2013 [16 favorites]
I mean this:
"...but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group"
...is such a bald-faced lie I don't even know where to start. The fuck they're not money-motivated; I doubt the bank that holds their mortgages and the supermarkets where they buy their food accepts a fulfilling work environment (in which they apparently expect you to live) in exchange for their goods and services. They're intensely money-motivated as the motivation to make money is what led to this hilarious job offer to be posted in the first place.
The owner of a company in a capitalist economy should not be ashamed to make a profit. That's how it works; the nation's children aren't fed on good vibes. But the owner of a company should also pay themselves last, which means if there's four jobs that need done, they hire four people to do them. Not underpay one person and pocket the difference while claiming whatever it is they're claiming to provide in exchange.
posted by griphus at 1:47 PM on November 26, 2013 [76 favorites]
"...but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group"
...is such a bald-faced lie I don't even know where to start. The fuck they're not money-motivated; I doubt the bank that holds their mortgages and the supermarkets where they buy their food accepts a fulfilling work environment (in which they apparently expect you to live) in exchange for their goods and services. They're intensely money-motivated as the motivation to make money is what led to this hilarious job offer to be posted in the first place.
The owner of a company in a capitalist economy should not be ashamed to make a profit. That's how it works; the nation's children aren't fed on good vibes. But the owner of a company should also pay themselves last, which means if there's four jobs that need done, they hire four people to do them. Not underpay one person and pocket the difference while claiming whatever it is they're claiming to provide in exchange.
posted by griphus at 1:47 PM on November 26, 2013 [76 favorites]
So the penny arcade guys are joking now about how trans phobic they are. That's just appalling.
Where are they doing this? Oh, right, they're not.
posted by kbanas at 1:47 PM on November 26, 2013 [11 favorites]
Where are they doing this? Oh, right, they're not.
posted by kbanas at 1:47 PM on November 26, 2013 [11 favorites]
Saw this on the Twitter earlier. Seems very much of a piece with this FPP from a couple days ago.
Yeah, nobodies takeaway should be that the problems with this ad are specifically PA problems.
They do seem to have a knack of making assholes of themselves though.
posted by Artw at 1:48 PM on November 26, 2013
Yeah, nobodies takeaway should be that the problems with this ad are specifically PA problems.
They do seem to have a knack of making assholes of themselves though.
posted by Artw at 1:48 PM on November 26, 2013
This is obviously fake because it doesn't mention table tennis.
And they would have totally done a kick starter for this anyway.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:49 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
And they would have totally done a kick starter for this anyway.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:49 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, I'd like to remind everyone of this delightful shenanigan from their Kickstarter page:
Pledge $7,500 or moreposted by griphus at 1:49 PM on November 26, 2013 [12 favorites]
2 backers All gone!
Intern at Penny Arcade for a day! You'll be put to real work under the supervision of Khoo. (you will need to arrange travel)
griphus: "I mean this:
"Not underpay one person and pocket the difference while claiming whatever it is they're claiming to provide in exchange."
You some kind o' pope there, pally?
posted by Mister_A at 1:49 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
"Not underpay one person and pocket the difference while claiming whatever it is they're claiming to provide in exchange."
You some kind o' pope there, pally?
posted by Mister_A at 1:49 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
I don't see this being that similar to the FPP People with the skills referenced in the Penny Arcade ad have skills that can command a pretty good salary in most job markets. They are highly marketable.
People who pursue English professorships have fewer options. The market for English majors isn't very big, and the salaries are low. It makes a lot more sense to work for nothing in hopes of getting the golden ticket (tenured professorship).
posted by fridayinjune at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2013
People who pursue English professorships have fewer options. The market for English majors isn't very big, and the salaries are low. It makes a lot more sense to work for nothing in hopes of getting the golden ticket (tenured professorship).
posted by fridayinjune at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2013
We’re terrible at work-life balance. Although work is pretty much your life, we do our absolute best to make sure that work is as awesome as possible so you at least enjoy each and every day here.
wow
such work
so fun
all werk no play good doge
posted by jetlagaddict at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [57 favorites]
wow
such work
so fun
all werk no play good doge
posted by jetlagaddict at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [57 favorites]
Someone should make a counter offer to the applicants.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
They could completely strike out any mention of money and still get hundreds, if not thousands of applicants for an "internship". At least they're paying, however low that bar is set by others in the creative industry.
griphus: The fuck they're not money-motivated; I doubt the bank that holds their mortgages and the supermarkets where they buy their food accepts a fulfilling work environment (in which they apparently expect you to live) in exchange for their goods and services. They're intensely money-motivated as the motivation to make money is what led to this hilarious job offer to be posted in the first place.
This guy hits the nail on the head on how Khoos knows how to sell Penny Arcade. If your image of them are a couple of friends making a webcomic and moving some merch for shits & giggles out of their garage, you're not going to expect much, if any pay. If you take a look at how they've built up into a mini-empire, no sane person would agree to such a poorly paying job doing everything.
posted by dr_dank at 1:52 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
griphus: The fuck they're not money-motivated; I doubt the bank that holds their mortgages and the supermarkets where they buy their food accepts a fulfilling work environment (in which they apparently expect you to live) in exchange for their goods and services. They're intensely money-motivated as the motivation to make money is what led to this hilarious job offer to be posted in the first place.
This guy hits the nail on the head on how Khoos knows how to sell Penny Arcade. If your image of them are a couple of friends making a webcomic and moving some merch for shits & giggles out of their garage, you're not going to expect much, if any pay. If you take a look at how they've built up into a mini-empire, no sane person would agree to such a poorly paying job doing everything.
posted by dr_dank at 1:52 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Someone should make an counter offer to the applicants.
I can, right now, make a standing offer to anyone who applies for that job. You can have no job. At all. I have no job to offer you. I know it sounds silly now, but if you accept their job, wait to see how long until my offer sounds like a considerably better opportunity to advance oneself.
posted by griphus at 1:52 PM on November 26, 2013 [64 favorites]
I can, right now, make a standing offer to anyone who applies for that job. You can have no job. At all. I have no job to offer you. I know it sounds silly now, but if you accept their job, wait to see how long until my offer sounds like a considerably better opportunity to advance oneself.
posted by griphus at 1:52 PM on November 26, 2013 [64 favorites]
Relevant comic: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/04/06
posted by xiw at 1:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [28 favorites]
posted by xiw at 1:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [28 favorites]
So the penny arcade guys are joking now about how trans phobic they are. That's just appalling.
I think you were was confused by the fact that Buecheler put quotes around his "summary":
"We want someone who can code well in multiple front-end and back-end languages, maintain servers and other hardware including load balancing and database admin, do general office IT, manage your own projects, deal with the fact that one of our co-founders is a rampaging trans-phobic asshole, and be on call 24/7 though we hope not to bug you too much in the middle of the night.”
Those are Buecheler's words, that's not actually taken from the job listing.
posted by justkevin at 1:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
I think you were was confused by the fact that Buecheler put quotes around his "summary":
"We want someone who can code well in multiple front-end and back-end languages, maintain servers and other hardware including load balancing and database admin, do general office IT, manage your own projects, deal with the fact that one of our co-founders is a rampaging trans-phobic asshole, and be on call 24/7 though we hope not to bug you too much in the middle of the night.”
Those are Buecheler's words, that's not actually taken from the job listing.
posted by justkevin at 1:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
Honestly this sounds like pretty much every job in the gaming industry and at least they're up front and honest about how terrible it is. Which isn't saying much but there it is.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 1:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 1:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
griphus, do you offer dental?
posted by Mister_A at 1:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 1:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
They basically want a start-up style software development/IT jack of all trades type person without actually offering what makes people take that kind of job (the possibility of the start-up becoming huge and making them a lot of money). It makes me wonder if they had a dev who did all of this since near the beginning but left recently and now they have unrealistic expectations for replacing them.
posted by burnmp3s at 1:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by burnmp3s at 1:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
I offer full dental but I am not certified-dentistry motivated and do not promise a good dental-certification to I-do-my-own-dental-work balance.
posted by griphus at 1:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [25 favorites]
posted by griphus at 1:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [25 favorites]
And let's also keep in mind that in no point do they actually list a salary or a salary range? So it's fun to, you know, lose your marbles and wave your hands around or whatever, but you have no actual fucking idea of what kind of salary an applicant might expect and how it would compare to the market value of such a position.
posted by kbanas at 1:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by kbanas at 1:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
They do seem to have a knack of making assholes of themselves though.
The person who they have in their role as "HR Department" must be super busy with other responsibilities too.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
The person who they have in their role as "HR Department" must be super busy with other responsibilities too.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure Buecheler is being super helpful here with that.
posted by Artw at 1:57 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:57 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well that's fine, griphus; my teeth are a mess, so it follows that you could hardly make them worse.
posted by Mister_A at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
And let's also keep in mind that in no point do they actually list a salary or a salary range? So it's fun to, you know, lose your marbles and wave your hands around or whatever, but you have no actual fucking idea of what kind of salary an applicant might expect and how it would compare to the market value of such a position.
Mentioning in the job description that you should know up front that they aren't going to spend money on your salary tells anybody with any experience far more than any number will.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [55 favorites]
Mentioning in the job description that you should know up front that they aren't going to spend money on your salary tells anybody with any experience far more than any number will.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [55 favorites]
Griphus cannot promise you no dental, but he can guarantee no health and vision coverage.
posted by jbickers at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by jbickers at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
They've needed to hire a decent PR person for a while now
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
....you have no actual fucking idea of what kind of salary an applicant might expect and how it would compare to the market value of such a position.
Would it be the market value of an experienced coder, web admin, DB admin and designer combined? Because that's the job they expect one person to do.
posted by griphus at 2:00 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
Would it be the market value of an experienced coder, web admin, DB admin and designer combined? Because that's the job they expect one person to do.
posted by griphus at 2:00 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
Honestly, it sounds a lot like every other graphic design job I see offered around my area.
Wanted: One person to perform every possible creative task known to man. For print and web. Must also know coding. $15/hr.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:00 PM on November 26, 2013 [42 favorites]
Wanted: One person to perform every possible creative task known to man. For print and web. Must also know coding. $15/hr.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:00 PM on November 26, 2013 [42 favorites]
So it's fun to, you know, lose your marbles and wave your hands around or whatever, but you have no actual fucking idea of what kind of salary an applicant might expect and how it would compare to the market value of such a position.
So, it is your hypothesis that a company that has every intention of paying market value for a person's labor would have some other unrelated reason to state in their job listing, and I quote:
"Annual Salary: Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group. We’re more likely to spend less money on salary and invest that on making your day-to-day life at work better."
Do I have that right?
posted by tocts at 2:00 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
So, it is your hypothesis that a company that has every intention of paying market value for a person's labor would have some other unrelated reason to state in their job listing, and I quote:
"Annual Salary: Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group. We’re more likely to spend less money on salary and invest that on making your day-to-day life at work better."
Do I have that right?
posted by tocts at 2:00 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
The well known designer/sysadmin crossover career, as seen on Craigslist.
posted by Artw at 2:01 PM on November 26, 2013 [17 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:01 PM on November 26, 2013 [17 favorites]
Mentioning in the job description that you should know up front that they aren't going to spend money on your salary tells anybody with any experience fare more than any number will.
I'm always pretty suspicious when a job doesn't list a number or even a range for the compensation, so I can't even imagine the implications of not listing a number and also giving a disclaimer that they're not really a money-oriented company.
Like, does it work out to...you having to pay them if you want to work there?
Again, I mean?
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'm always pretty suspicious when a job doesn't list a number or even a range for the compensation, so I can't even imagine the implications of not listing a number and also giving a disclaimer that they're not really a money-oriented company.
Like, does it work out to...you having to pay them if you want to work there?
Again, I mean?
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
zoo: "So the penny arcade guys are joking now about how trans phobic they are. That's just appalling"
Yeah, um, I think that's probably just the sarcastic summary of the ad that the guy who wrote the blog post made, because there's no mention of that in the actual ad.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, um, I think that's probably just the sarcastic summary of the ad that the guy who wrote the blog post made, because there's no mention of that in the actual ad.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
And let's also keep in mind that in no point do they actually list a salary or a salary range?
Yeah, but PA-hate is A Thing now. Those guys aren't allowed the benefit of the doubt. (See zoo's po-faced comment above, and the sheer rate of me-too pile-on in this thread).
It's games industry gig, more or less. Probably your first one. Compare it against a job at Mojang or Rockstar, not against a cubicle job slinging SQL all day.
They've needed to hire a decent PR person for a while now
Are their profits down or something?
posted by Leon at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
Yeah, but PA-hate is A Thing now. Those guys aren't allowed the benefit of the doubt. (See zoo's po-faced comment above, and the sheer rate of me-too pile-on in this thread).
It's games industry gig, more or less. Probably your first one. Compare it against a job at Mojang or Rockstar, not against a cubicle job slinging SQL all day.
They've needed to hire a decent PR person for a while now
Are their profits down or something?
posted by Leon at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
I'm sort of reminded of every AskMe where someone is like "I want to reward my horribly overworked team for completing this latest round of whip-driven crunch time. Pizza party? Laser tag?"
...and the replies being a solid consensus of TIME OFF AND MORE MONEY.
posted by griphus at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [63 favorites]
...and the replies being a solid consensus of TIME OFF AND MORE MONEY.
posted by griphus at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [63 favorites]
The applicant will be expected to walk and feed the Dickwolf when they're on vacation.
posted by dr_dank at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by dr_dank at 2:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
So, it is your hypothesis that a company that has every intention of paying market value for a person's labor would have some other unrelated reason to state in their job listing, and I quote:
My hypothesis is two-fold:
1. If you are offered the position and don't like the salary when it is time to negotiate the salary, you don't have to accept the position.
2. While that note indicates the salary is probably going to be low, we really have no idea how low. All this chatter is just speculation.
posted by kbanas at 2:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
My hypothesis is two-fold:
1. If you are offered the position and don't like the salary when it is time to negotiate the salary, you don't have to accept the position.
2. While that note indicates the salary is probably going to be low, we really have no idea how low. All this chatter is just speculation.
posted by kbanas at 2:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
If they're not money motivated then they won't have a problem with letting me have all of it.
posted by ckape at 2:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [31 favorites]
posted by ckape at 2:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [31 favorites]
It's time to stop paying attention to these people. I don't know anyone who reads the comic, but the internet seems insistent on giving them piles of attention every time they crap on the carpet again.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [21 favorites]
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [21 favorites]
Seems like perk #1 is you get to work for Penny Arcade.
I know you're making a similar point to what I'm about to say, but I think this is what really gets me.
Working for a cool or interesting company, or a company with a name people have heard of, is not a PERK.
This drives me insane.
I was recently unemployed, and when I was job hunting I applied way outside my current field to basically anything I thought I was qualified for. I saw so many job listings that advertised the industry or company name as a "perk" of some kind, like it's OK to only make $9 an hour if I'm working "in fashion" (AKA as an accounting clerk for an apparel wholesaler).
The worst was an ad I saw that presented the notion that getting to work for Food Lab LA was some kind of privilege, worth more than mere compensation, good working conditions, or benefits. At first I was like "Oh, Food Lab LA must be like the SoCal equivalent of Momofuku or something really amazing, where you'd be proud to go to work there everyday and put up with a lot for the ability to learn, make connections, innovate, etc." So I went to Food Lab LA's website. They are a fast food restaurant. Stab stab stab.
I mean, not that you should have to put up with a lot in order to work for a company like Momfuku, Penny Arcade, etc. But if you're going to claim the company's rep as a perk in your want ad, you might want to make sure that you're actually offering something.
posted by Sara C. at 2:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [20 favorites]
I know you're making a similar point to what I'm about to say, but I think this is what really gets me.
Working for a cool or interesting company, or a company with a name people have heard of, is not a PERK.
This drives me insane.
I was recently unemployed, and when I was job hunting I applied way outside my current field to basically anything I thought I was qualified for. I saw so many job listings that advertised the industry or company name as a "perk" of some kind, like it's OK to only make $9 an hour if I'm working "in fashion" (AKA as an accounting clerk for an apparel wholesaler).
The worst was an ad I saw that presented the notion that getting to work for Food Lab LA was some kind of privilege, worth more than mere compensation, good working conditions, or benefits. At first I was like "Oh, Food Lab LA must be like the SoCal equivalent of Momofuku or something really amazing, where you'd be proud to go to work there everyday and put up with a lot for the ability to learn, make connections, innovate, etc." So I went to Food Lab LA's website. They are a fast food restaurant. Stab stab stab.
I mean, not that you should have to put up with a lot in order to work for a company like Momfuku, Penny Arcade, etc. But if you're going to claim the company's rep as a perk in your want ad, you might want to make sure that you're actually offering something.
posted by Sara C. at 2:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [20 favorites]
But this is the straw that breaks this camel's back. This is 100% indefensible; there is no ignorance here, there is no debate to be had about how far is too far for a joke. This is a group that's famous for having successfully monetized the fuck out of an activity that is infamously hard to make a living off of, having the gall to suggest they aren't money-driven. This is outright exploitative and I can't play devil's advocate for even a minute.
Maybe I'm missing something, but they don't even say how much they are paying. Underplaying their hand could be device for drawing out people who have a passion for what they do, only to find out that compensation is more than fair. There is no way of knowing if the "money"comment is in relation to the industry standard, or based on the expectation that people ma have that they going to be making huge money working for PA.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe I'm missing something, but they don't even say how much they are paying. Underplaying their hand could be device for drawing out people who have a passion for what they do, only to find out that compensation is more than fair. There is no way of knowing if the "money"comment is in relation to the industry standard, or based on the expectation that people ma have that they going to be making huge money working for PA.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
To me this just sounds like they actually are a small company that has no fucking clue how to hire technical people or what they even need.
posted by aubilenon at 2:06 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 2:06 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
Underplaying their hand could be device for drawing out people who have a passion for what they do...
Honestly? I used to hire people directly, and now help hire people, albeit not in fields where "passion" is a thing that anyone looks for. The idea that someone sees "we explicitly offer a shitty work-life balance and will not pay you a whole lot" and says THAT'S THE JOB FOR ME betrays a lack of good judgement that would probably manifest itself when they show up to do work I give them.
posted by griphus at 2:08 PM on November 26, 2013 [12 favorites]
Honestly? I used to hire people directly, and now help hire people, albeit not in fields where "passion" is a thing that anyone looks for. The idea that someone sees "we explicitly offer a shitty work-life balance and will not pay you a whole lot" and says THAT'S THE JOB FOR ME betrays a lack of good judgement that would probably manifest itself when they show up to do work I give them.
posted by griphus at 2:08 PM on November 26, 2013 [12 favorites]
Wow, so much hate.
Look, not every job comes down to a $/hour figure. A lot of jobs pay incredibly well in terms of life experiences, work experience, and other such non-fungible benefits.
If you've ever watched any of the PA documentaries or videos they've produced, it honestly looks like everyone that works at PA Corp is incredibly happy with their job and life. I have easily turned down jobs and declined interviews because - while I would have made more $/hour, I would have been less happy with the other circumstances.
Yeah, they want you to bust your ass, and there's a speculation that they wouldn't pay as well as other jobs. But working at PA can offer a ton of benefits, happiness-wise, and you're foolish to ignore that.
A lot of people find incredible satisfaction working for the military, in physically and mentally demanding, low-pay jobs, but they're celebrated. Why is this so different?
posted by Imperfect at 2:08 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
Look, not every job comes down to a $/hour figure. A lot of jobs pay incredibly well in terms of life experiences, work experience, and other such non-fungible benefits.
If you've ever watched any of the PA documentaries or videos they've produced, it honestly looks like everyone that works at PA Corp is incredibly happy with their job and life. I have easily turned down jobs and declined interviews because - while I would have made more $/hour, I would have been less happy with the other circumstances.
Yeah, they want you to bust your ass, and there's a speculation that they wouldn't pay as well as other jobs. But working at PA can offer a ton of benefits, happiness-wise, and you're foolish to ignore that.
A lot of people find incredible satisfaction working for the military, in physically and mentally demanding, low-pay jobs, but they're celebrated. Why is this so different?
posted by Imperfect at 2:08 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
Replace "Penny Arcade" with "the movies" and this is my life.
Not really, because in "the movies" there are unions that enforce a degree of sanity in job descriptions. Even if you're working on an indie, the culture of film has been influenced by skilled workers and the presence of organized labor, so most indies have, for example, both a boom operator and a gaffer, rather than one person who's going to gaff during setups and then boom-op when the camera rolls.
This whole "need an intern to do the jobs of five fully-paid staff members in totally different departments" trend could be so easily fixed if there was more organized labor within tech and new media.
posted by Sara C. at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [48 favorites]
Not really, because in "the movies" there are unions that enforce a degree of sanity in job descriptions. Even if you're working on an indie, the culture of film has been influenced by skilled workers and the presence of organized labor, so most indies have, for example, both a boom operator and a gaffer, rather than one person who's going to gaff during setups and then boom-op when the camera rolls.
This whole "need an intern to do the jobs of five fully-paid staff members in totally different departments" trend could be so easily fixed if there was more organized labor within tech and new media.
posted by Sara C. at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [48 favorites]
If you've ever watched any of the PA documentaries or videos they've produced, it honestly looks like everyone that works at PA Corp is incredibly happy with their job and life
I am sure they are a trustworthy source on this.
posted by smasuch at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
I am sure they are a trustworthy source on this.
posted by smasuch at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
Because the word for somebody who works really hard for low pay for somebody else's private profit is "sucker". Explicitly looking to hire a sucker for your own benefit makes you vermin.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [34 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [34 favorites]
Not to defend them but at least its honest. I would love to see this conversation go in the direction of small businesses with unrealistic expectations of their workers.
posted by andendau at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by andendau at 2:10 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
While that note indicates the salary is probably going to be low, we really have no idea how low. All this chatter is just speculation.
There are a lot of snarky ways I could try to make this point, but it seems easier to just say: this is an incredibly naive statement.
Job listings that refuse to give a salary range are already signifying an intent to pay as little as the hiring company can get away with. A job listing that doesn't list a salary range and also goes out of its way to let you know that they historically don't pay a high salary is about as clear a statement as a company could make about their intentions without just posting "WANT TO HIRE: 1 SUCKER".
posted by tocts at 2:13 PM on November 26, 2013 [22 favorites]
There are a lot of snarky ways I could try to make this point, but it seems easier to just say: this is an incredibly naive statement.
Job listings that refuse to give a salary range are already signifying an intent to pay as little as the hiring company can get away with. A job listing that doesn't list a salary range and also goes out of its way to let you know that they historically don't pay a high salary is about as clear a statement as a company could make about their intentions without just posting "WANT TO HIRE: 1 SUCKER".
posted by tocts at 2:13 PM on November 26, 2013 [22 favorites]
Honestly? I used to hire people directly, and now help hire people, albeit not in fields where "passion" is a thing that anyone looks for. The idea that someone sees "we explicitly offer a shitty work-life balance and will not pay you a whole lot" and says THAT'S THE JOB FOR ME betrays a lack of good judgement that would probably manifest itself when they show up to do work I give them.
Yes, can see that. I guess I'm not feeling overly indignant regarding a job description that could perhaps have been worded a bit better, but we have no way to telling if it's as evil as people are reading on the surface. Even reading that job description, I'd feel compelled to apply and see what the reality of the situation is, before I assume it necessarily means selling my soul to the devil. There's no way to tell from that description what the base line for comparison is regarding either salary or work hours.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:13 PM on November 26, 2013
Yes, can see that. I guess I'm not feeling overly indignant regarding a job description that could perhaps have been worded a bit better, but we have no way to telling if it's as evil as people are reading on the surface. Even reading that job description, I'd feel compelled to apply and see what the reality of the situation is, before I assume it necessarily means selling my soul to the devil. There's no way to tell from that description what the base line for comparison is regarding either salary or work hours.
posted by SpacemanStix at 2:13 PM on November 26, 2013
IMO, the idea that the prestige factor of working for PA should outweigh things like getting to hang out with your kids outside of work or making a reasonable salary is objectionable even if they end up getting a "real" salary. It's selecting for people who are willing to be exploited and who won't stand up for themselves, and it promulgates the idea that having a job in the glamorous gaming industry should necessitate slavish devotion. (Ironically, this is something PA has satirized before.)
posted by en forme de poire at 2:14 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 2:14 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
Yeah, but PA-hate is A Thing now.
They've done a damn fine job over the years of helping this along. They're grown-ups, not starry-eyed 20somethings who don't know how to run a business. But if they want to act like enthusiastic if ignorant adolescents, they shouldn't blame people for treating them as such.
posted by rtha at 2:16 PM on November 26, 2013 [28 favorites]
They've done a damn fine job over the years of helping this along. They're grown-ups, not starry-eyed 20somethings who don't know how to run a business. But if they want to act like enthusiastic if ignorant adolescents, they shouldn't blame people for treating them as such.
posted by rtha at 2:16 PM on November 26, 2013 [28 favorites]
There's no way to tell from that description what the base line for comparison is regarding either salary or work hours.
You're explicitly on-call 24/7 and I can guarantee you frontend/backend dev + DBA + sysadmin is already far more than a fulltime job itself. Penny Arcade is not a local pizza parlor with a 2-page static website.
posted by kmz at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
You're explicitly on-call 24/7 and I can guarantee you frontend/backend dev + DBA + sysadmin is already far more than a fulltime job itself. Penny Arcade is not a local pizza parlor with a 2-page static website.
posted by kmz at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
Not really, because in "the movies" there are unions that enforce a degree of sanity in job descriptions.
Well, I'm very glad it isn't your life - but it is mine.
posted by incessant at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, I'm very glad it isn't your life - but it is mine.
posted by incessant at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
> Seems like perk #1 is you get to work for Penny Arcade.
Working for a cool or interesting company, or a company with a name people have heard of, is not a PERK.
By itself? No. But I see it as less of a badge perk ("I do the same work as anyone else, but I do it at PA"), and more of a shorthand for the rest of the perks ("I do the same work as anyone else, and I have a great group of colleagues and friends now, and I'm actively involved in game nights and nerd culture, and I have access to the latest systems and games, etc.").
posted by Imperfect at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Working for a cool or interesting company, or a company with a name people have heard of, is not a PERK.
By itself? No. But I see it as less of a badge perk ("I do the same work as anyone else, but I do it at PA"), and more of a shorthand for the rest of the perks ("I do the same work as anyone else, and I have a great group of colleagues and friends now, and I'm actively involved in game nights and nerd culture, and I have access to the latest systems and games, etc.").
posted by Imperfect at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
One of the essays in the classic book "Parkinson's Law" is about advertising for job applicants. His point is that if your advertisement brings in a thousand applicants, you didn't write it correctly. The thing to do is to toss all of them, and rewrite the ad to make the job less attractive and more challenging. The ideal result is that you get exactly one person applying for the job, and his qualifications are perfect.
This ad from Penny Arcade sounds exactly like that. Suppose, just suppose, they were to make it more conventional? They'd have been flooded with resumes. With this ad, however, they won't get so many, and the ones they do get will be more like what they need. I think maybe they're exaggerating a bit and emphasizing the negatives deliberately, as a way of reducing the flood.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:18 PM on November 26, 2013 [18 favorites]
This ad from Penny Arcade sounds exactly like that. Suppose, just suppose, they were to make it more conventional? They'd have been flooded with resumes. With this ad, however, they won't get so many, and the ones they do get will be more like what they need. I think maybe they're exaggerating a bit and emphasizing the negatives deliberately, as a way of reducing the flood.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:18 PM on November 26, 2013 [18 favorites]
Just as an anecdata point: airlines do this exact same thing: "Yeah the pay is 35-50% lower than what you'd get in a similar position in other inudstries by hey don't worry 'cuz you get to fly for free!*"
*well, only if we have empty seats which we never do any more because we're bleeding money and OH GOD OH GOD OVERSELL ALL THE FLIGHTS PLS
posted by Doleful Creature at 2:19 PM on November 26, 2013
*well, only if we have empty seats which we never do any more because we're bleeding money and OH GOD OH GOD OVERSELL ALL THE FLIGHTS PLS
posted by Doleful Creature at 2:19 PM on November 26, 2013
With this ad, however, they won't get so many, and the ones they do get will be more like what they need.
And what they need is one person willing to do the work of four for the pay of one-half.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:20 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
And what they need is one person willing to do the work of four for the pay of one-half.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:20 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm actively involved in game nights and nerd culture, and I have access to the latest systems and games, etc.
Ummmm....this is definitely not just a PA thing. My job, par example, also has a strong contingent of gamers and lots of gaming nights, access to new games, etc...hell we even had a Minecraft server on the company LAN for awhile. This is so not rare (especially in an IT focused domain) it's not even worth calling out, in my opinion.
posted by Doleful Creature at 2:22 PM on November 26, 2013
Ummmm....this is definitely not just a PA thing. My job, par example, also has a strong contingent of gamers and lots of gaming nights, access to new games, etc...hell we even had a Minecraft server on the company LAN for awhile. This is so not rare (especially in an IT focused domain) it's not even worth calling out, in my opinion.
posted by Doleful Creature at 2:22 PM on November 26, 2013
They'll get one person that can do four separate jobs very poorly but maybe well enough to get by.
posted by andendau at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by andendau at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
It is due to listings like this that I decided a couple of years ago to simply go into business for myself. There are plenty of bumps in the road with this route and often less money. However, the simple satisfaction I get due to not having to deal with moronic, sociopath "employers" like this, more than make up for the shortcomings.
posted by lampshade at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by lampshade at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
What I find interesting about this thread is the number of people who say that any job posting that doesn't list at least salary ranges is immediately suspect. I'm a lawyer and I don't think I've ever seen a job posting that didn't say "Salary commensurate with experience" on it (federal hiring excepted, because they have to list it by law). I think my mind would boggle if I ever actually saw a posted dollar amount. Am I weird on this somehow?
posted by Inkoate at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by Inkoate at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
Not really, because in "the movies" there are unions that enforce a degree of sanity in job descriptions.
Comics, everybody!
posted by Artw at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
Comics, everybody!
posted by Artw at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
I guess I'll just have to keep consuming their free webcomics product while not giving them a goddamn penny, like always.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2013
"I do the same work as anyone else, and I have a great group of colleagues and friends now, and I'm actively involved in game nights and nerd culture, and I have access to the latest systems and games, etc."
But that's not what the situation is. You'd be doing four times as much work as anyone else. Or, well, knowing the gaming, industry, twice.
And if the the work-life balance skews to "work" then those game nights are going to be done as a part of your job (otherwise, when do you have time to go to them?) And regardless of how much passion and love you have for your industry, go ahead and talk to anyone who has to go to geek conventions as part of their job. If they're honest, you're not going to hear "oh boy! We get to represent ourselves at another con!" It's closer to "oh god get the caffeine pills and Purell and once more into the breach."
posted by griphus at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
But that's not what the situation is. You'd be doing four times as much work as anyone else. Or, well, knowing the gaming, industry, twice.
And if the the work-life balance skews to "work" then those game nights are going to be done as a part of your job (otherwise, when do you have time to go to them?) And regardless of how much passion and love you have for your industry, go ahead and talk to anyone who has to go to geek conventions as part of their job. If they're honest, you're not going to hear "oh boy! We get to represent ourselves at another con!" It's closer to "oh god get the caffeine pills and Purell and once more into the breach."
posted by griphus at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
It's a lot easier to be "not money-focused" when you are rolling around in piles of the stuff.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:28 PM on November 26, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:28 PM on November 26, 2013 [12 favorites]
Yeah, um, I think that's probably just the sarcastic summary of the ad that the guy who wrote the blog post made, because there's no mention of that in the actual ad.
Well the ad does say this: "You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment." So.
To me, that statement is at least as egregious as the bit about the salary -- it's basically the opposite of the cookie-cutter HR statement on most job postings stating that they welcome diverse applicants.
posted by likeatoaster at 2:30 PM on November 26, 2013 [11 favorites]
Well the ad does say this: "You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment." So.
To me, that statement is at least as egregious as the bit about the salary -- it's basically the opposite of the cookie-cutter HR statement on most job postings stating that they welcome diverse applicants.
posted by likeatoaster at 2:30 PM on November 26, 2013 [11 favorites]
What I find interesting about this thread is the number of people who say that any job posting that doesn't list at least salary ranges is immediately suspect.
Yeah, I don't see explicit dollar amounts often for those kinds of jobs. On the other hand, most don't come out and say the pay will be shitty... And so many other red flags...
posted by Artw at 2:30 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I don't see explicit dollar amounts often for those kinds of jobs. On the other hand, most don't come out and say the pay will be shitty... And so many other red flags...
posted by Artw at 2:30 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you are offered the position and don't like the salary when it is time to negotiate the salary, you don't have to accept the position.
This is both true and irrelevent. It's like saying "I'm an asshole, and you're still listening to me, so it's okay that I'm an asshole." No, whether it's okay to be an asshole is not predicated on my continued presence. Exploitation does not cease to be so just because circumstances create volunteers.
posted by fatbird at 2:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [18 favorites]
This is both true and irrelevent. It's like saying "I'm an asshole, and you're still listening to me, so it's okay that I'm an asshole." No, whether it's okay to be an asshole is not predicated on my continued presence. Exploitation does not cease to be so just because circumstances create volunteers.
posted by fatbird at 2:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [18 favorites]
"Salary commensurate with experience"
The problem is that "Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group. We’re more likely to spend less money on salary and invest that on making your day-to-day life at work better" does not mean "commensurate with experience." In fact, it seems to come right out and tells you to brace for an offer that will not be commensurate with experience.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:34 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
The problem is that "Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group. We’re more likely to spend less money on salary and invest that on making your day-to-day life at work better" does not mean "commensurate with experience." In fact, it seems to come right out and tells you to brace for an offer that will not be commensurate with experience.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:34 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh, no, I agree that the line about salary in the posting was shit. I was just curious about others' comments in this thread.
posted by Inkoate at 2:37 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Inkoate at 2:37 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
After many years, and many jobs, one hard-earned lesson I have learned is: if your gut is telling you "this place of employment might be run by an unscrupulous bunch of assholes," then, my friend, you walk away.
Because every damn time I didn't, I ended up working for an unscrupulous bunch of assholes.
Even if I had the skills and liked the comic, and had a wealthy spouse who supported me so wasn't worried about money, I would hesitate to take this job. Because working with an unscrupulous bunch of assholes is its own special kind of hell.
posted by emjaybee at 2:37 PM on November 26, 2013 [21 favorites]
Because every damn time I didn't, I ended up working for an unscrupulous bunch of assholes.
Even if I had the skills and liked the comic, and had a wealthy spouse who supported me so wasn't worried about money, I would hesitate to take this job. Because working with an unscrupulous bunch of assholes is its own special kind of hell.
posted by emjaybee at 2:37 PM on November 26, 2013 [21 favorites]
It's commensurate with them buying themselves some toys they might let you use.
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
Benefits are overrated anyway - home dentistry is coming back in a big way. It's more authentic.
posted by thelonius at 2:38 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 2:38 PM on November 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
man, remember when unions prevented so much of this bullshit among other technical professions?
posted by mikelieman at 2:39 PM on November 26, 2013 [27 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 2:39 PM on November 26, 2013 [27 favorites]
It's games industry gig, more or less. Probably your first one. Compare it against a job at Mojang or Rockstar, not against a cubicle job slinging SQL all day.
The bottom line is that exploitative working conditions like the ones implied in the ad should be straight-up illegal. Yes some people will work 10+ hours a day for no money if they think that it will be fun or help their career or whatever. But if laws allow people to do that, they also allow companies to make it the de facto normal working conditions across the industry.
People have brought up unpaid internships as replacement for normal jobs, which also should be (and mostly are) illegal. A lot of US IT jobs involve salaried positions that don't include paid overtime, which is mostly okay because the positions are usually well-paid to begin with. But if there's nothing stopping a company from hiring devs at minimum wage and working them ten hours a day seven days a week, then that's where the industry is going to push things towards (even more than they already do by outsourcing to countries that have terrible working conditions).
posted by burnmp3s at 2:39 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
The bottom line is that exploitative working conditions like the ones implied in the ad should be straight-up illegal. Yes some people will work 10+ hours a day for no money if they think that it will be fun or help their career or whatever. But if laws allow people to do that, they also allow companies to make it the de facto normal working conditions across the industry.
People have brought up unpaid internships as replacement for normal jobs, which also should be (and mostly are) illegal. A lot of US IT jobs involve salaried positions that don't include paid overtime, which is mostly okay because the positions are usually well-paid to begin with. But if there's nothing stopping a company from hiring devs at minimum wage and working them ten hours a day seven days a week, then that's where the industry is going to push things towards (even more than they already do by outsourcing to countries that have terrible working conditions).
posted by burnmp3s at 2:39 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
To me, it mostly reads like a job listing for a "webmaster" that's been updated with the latest trendy technovocabulary.
With the exception of the trans-phobic bit, this sounds a lot like my first job, although I bet Penny Arcade actually pays better. I really read this as a failed attempt at being hip rather than an attempt to exploit someone.
I tend to think "you should be happy to work here, so take less money" is bogus in general, but for some places, I think it's true. My guess is that unless you get fired in disgrace, a year or so of this job on your resume will open doors that never would've opened before.
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:40 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
With the exception of the trans-phobic bit, this sounds a lot like my first job, although I bet Penny Arcade actually pays better. I really read this as a failed attempt at being hip rather than an attempt to exploit someone.
I tend to think "you should be happy to work here, so take less money" is bogus in general, but for some places, I think it's true. My guess is that unless you get fired in disgrace, a year or so of this job on your resume will open doors that never would've opened before.
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:40 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
man, remember when unions prevented so much of this bullshit among other technical professions?
Sadly, no.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sadly, no.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
As I said, this sounds like my first job, but it also sounds like several of the ones afterwards. I think it's really common for the same person to be involved in all of the different tasks they mention. Their phrasing puts it in a bad light, but this jack of all trades technologist position is extremely common in small businesses that don't see themselves as software organizations.
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:43 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:43 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd do it for 250 thousand dollars per year, with a 25K signing bonus up front.
(I already know what I am and yes, it does come down to price)
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:43 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
(I already know what I am and yes, it does come down to price)
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:43 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Even if you're working on an indie, the culture of film has been influenced by skilled workers and the presence of organized labor, so most indies have, for example, both a boom operator and a gaffer, rather than one person who's going to gaff during setups and then boom-op when the camera rolls.
If only this were true.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 2:43 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
If only this were true.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 2:43 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, I'm very glad it isn't your life - but it is mine.
I don't know, I mean I'm not trying to undercut your feelings about your job or whatever, but while I will sometimes gripe that I do the job of three people, it's just that. A gripe. My recent journey through the land of Craigslist job ads has shown me that, if I'm doing the job of three people at my current gig, every other company wants to hire someone to do the job of a dozen.
I actually think that film is better than a lot of other fields for careful delineation of job duties and making sure to hire people to fill specific roles.
Certainly as compared to startups and small businesses, this is definitely the case.
posted by Sara C. at 2:44 PM on November 26, 2013
I don't know, I mean I'm not trying to undercut your feelings about your job or whatever, but while I will sometimes gripe that I do the job of three people, it's just that. A gripe. My recent journey through the land of Craigslist job ads has shown me that, if I'm doing the job of three people at my current gig, every other company wants to hire someone to do the job of a dozen.
I actually think that film is better than a lot of other fields for careful delineation of job duties and making sure to hire people to fill specific roles.
Certainly as compared to startups and small businesses, this is definitely the case.
posted by Sara C. at 2:44 PM on November 26, 2013
The bottom line is that exploitative working conditions like the ones implied in the ad should be straight-up illegal.
This is one of the things about the US that drives me nuts. There are laws that make this kind of shit illegal, just not here. France has a mandated 36 (?) hour work week and for a lot of the workforce there are repercussions if you go over that! Here we have a mandated 40 hour work week, but there are repercussions if you dare take the personal time that is rightfully yours. And then people joke about the "lazy" Europeans and think it's the funniest thing that they get such luxuries as a shorter work week, better healthcare, and more than two weeks of vacation. Because Socialism.
posted by backseatpilot at 2:44 PM on November 26, 2013 [26 favorites]
This is one of the things about the US that drives me nuts. There are laws that make this kind of shit illegal, just not here. France has a mandated 36 (?) hour work week and for a lot of the workforce there are repercussions if you go over that! Here we have a mandated 40 hour work week, but there are repercussions if you dare take the personal time that is rightfully yours. And then people joke about the "lazy" Europeans and think it's the funniest thing that they get such luxuries as a shorter work week, better healthcare, and more than two weeks of vacation. Because Socialism.
posted by backseatpilot at 2:44 PM on November 26, 2013 [26 favorites]
Sadly, no.
Typesetters never tolerated this stuff.
posted by mikelieman at 2:44 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Typesetters never tolerated this stuff.
posted by mikelieman at 2:44 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
likeatoaster: Well the ad does say this: "You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment." So.
To me, that statement is at least as egregious as the bit about the salary -- it's basically the opposite of the cookie-cutter HR statement on most job postings stating that they welcome diverse applicants.
I am astonished they put that in for liability reasons alone. To a lawyer, I think that would read "We know we are out of compliance with various equal opportunity and workplace harrassment laws and refuse to address it."
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [10 favorites]
To me, that statement is at least as egregious as the bit about the salary -- it's basically the opposite of the cookie-cutter HR statement on most job postings stating that they welcome diverse applicants.
I am astonished they put that in for liability reasons alone. To a lawyer, I think that would read "We know we are out of compliance with various equal opportunity and workplace harrassment laws and refuse to address it."
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [10 favorites]
You think you're going to live your life alone
In darkness and seclusion... yeah, I know
You've been out there and tried to mix with those animals
And it just left you full of humiliated confusion
So you stagger back home and wait for nothing
But the solitary refinement of your room spits you back onto the streets
And now you're desperate and in need of human contact
posted by destro at 2:45 PM on November 26, 2013
In darkness and seclusion... yeah, I know
You've been out there and tried to mix with those animals
And it just left you full of humiliated confusion
So you stagger back home and wait for nothing
But the solitary refinement of your room spits you back onto the streets
And now you're desperate and in need of human contact
posted by destro at 2:45 PM on November 26, 2013
It's not so bad, they just want a jack of all trades which I guess is called a devops position now. Someone who is adequate at everything. Most of us who came up through the dotcom era had jobs like this. I had a job where I managed the office phone system in addition to all that.
The money / lack of work life balance may actually cancel each other out if they are paying for 3 meals a day. Do not underestimate free food as a perk, I would probably take a 10k cut just for free lunch.
If I was in my 20s I would apply for this.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:46 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
The money / lack of work life balance may actually cancel each other out if they are paying for 3 meals a day. Do not underestimate free food as a perk, I would probably take a 10k cut just for free lunch.
If I was in my 20s I would apply for this.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:46 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Do not underestimate free food as a perk, I would probably take a 10k cut just for free lunch.
Damn, lunch better be catered by The French Laundry.
posted by kmz at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [10 favorites]
Damn, lunch better be catered by The French Laundry.
posted by kmz at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [10 favorites]
His point is that if your advertisement brings in a thousand applicants, you didn't write it correctly. The thing to do is to toss all of them, and rewrite the ad to make the job less attractive and more challenging. The ideal result is that you get exactly one person applying for the job, and his qualifications are perfect.
I just wanted to say really quickly that yes, this is a "rational" thing to do in that it will definitely get you fewer applicants. In practice, however, it's really selecting for 1. people who have the most confidence in their own abilities, 2. people who don't flinch at unreasonable demands, and 3. people who are very ambitious. These are not necessarily uniformly positive qualities in an employee.
And I gotta say it: I'd guess that, even without any such intention, this type of protocol for placing ads probably ends up favoring male applicants. Men don't have to worry about pregnancy affecting their working hours, don't have much cultural incentive to spend a lot of time with their kids vs. at work, and tend to be more confident than women at the same level of ability. Winnowing down a large pile of applications is tougher, but realistically, most of the applications will be triaged anyway so it's not really a thousand times more reading.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
I just wanted to say really quickly that yes, this is a "rational" thing to do in that it will definitely get you fewer applicants. In practice, however, it's really selecting for 1. people who have the most confidence in their own abilities, 2. people who don't flinch at unreasonable demands, and 3. people who are very ambitious. These are not necessarily uniformly positive qualities in an employee.
And I gotta say it: I'd guess that, even without any such intention, this type of protocol for placing ads probably ends up favoring male applicants. Men don't have to worry about pregnancy affecting their working hours, don't have much cultural incentive to spend a lot of time with their kids vs. at work, and tend to be more confident than women at the same level of ability. Winnowing down a large pile of applications is tougher, but realistically, most of the applications will be triaged anyway so it's not really a thousand times more reading.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
My job description involves web design and tech support and cleaning toilets and I make $9/hour, because that's how working for small businesses tends to be, and I'm not even a tech person, I'm working in accounting. They haven't said how much the salary is, but what they said about it could mean anything from $9/hour to "no, we aren't competitive with Google". They have a 401k match, which is better than I get. If somebody actually takes that job and comes back later and says it's slave labor, I am completely prepared to revise this, but otherwise all we know is it sounds like a bunch of work and a pretty broad requested skillset, but it's a skillset some people do actually have.
I get calls from my church at all kinds of odd times because the computers or the wifi have gone down, and I just volunteer to fix these things. Some people do not consider heavy hours and on-call to be that much of a burden; some people do. It's really hard to say without actually going there whether the environment and the pay is really going to be worth it, but it seems really weird to assume it's absolutely not, when there are startups out there promising all kinds of equity BUT NOT ACTUALLY PAYING SALARIES.
posted by Sequence at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I get calls from my church at all kinds of odd times because the computers or the wifi have gone down, and I just volunteer to fix these things. Some people do not consider heavy hours and on-call to be that much of a burden; some people do. It's really hard to say without actually going there whether the environment and the pay is really going to be worth it, but it seems really weird to assume it's absolutely not, when there are startups out there promising all kinds of equity BUT NOT ACTUALLY PAYING SALARIES.
posted by Sequence at 2:50 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Man I wish I remembered unions.
posted by PMdixon at 2:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by PMdixon at 2:53 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Look, not every job comes down to a $/hour figure. A lot of jobs pay incredibly well in terms of life experiences, work experience, and other such non-fungible benefits.
Can I pay my electric bill in other such non-fungible benefits?
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 2:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [10 favorites]
Can I pay my electric bill in other such non-fungible benefits?
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 2:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [10 favorites]
Damn, lunch better be catered by The French Laundry.
It isn't just the cost of the food it is the fact that it is just taken care of. I don't have to carry my lunch in to work on the train and carry home empty cintainers and I don't have to go outside into the cold and stand on line for 30 minutes at some food truck.
Free food is definitely underrated in my book.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
It isn't just the cost of the food it is the fact that it is just taken care of. I don't have to carry my lunch in to work on the train and carry home empty cintainers and I don't have to go outside into the cold and stand on line for 30 minutes at some food truck.
Free food is definitely underrated in my book.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:59 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well I feel like a dick now.
I seriously thought the stuff in quotes was stuff Penny Arcade actually said. Kinda feels a bit mean to paraphrase them so inaccurately, but I guess it helps tell us where Buecheler's coming from.
So this is just a hatchet job then?
posted by zoo at 3:01 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I seriously thought the stuff in quotes was stuff Penny Arcade actually said. Kinda feels a bit mean to paraphrase them so inaccurately, but I guess it helps tell us where Buecheler's coming from.
So this is just a hatchet job then?
posted by zoo at 3:01 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
The reason why there's a lot of "hate" in this thread about this job posting even though, yes, there are probably far worse employment situations out there (beyond it being Penny Aracde, which is obviously going to amp it up based on past wrong-doing) is that accepting a job posting like this as 'occasionally acceptable because of [x]' is exactly what leads to shitty jobs becoming the new norm.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 3:01 PM on November 26, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 3:01 PM on November 26, 2013 [15 favorites]
Reminds me of this rogue brewery job posting from this summer that got them roundly roasted in the ale-o-sphere.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:02 PM on November 26, 2013 [15 favorites]
So this is just a hatchet job then?
No, read the linked job ad. It's as bad as everyone says. Buechler's paraphrase is hyperbole, but his arguments about it are sound.
posted by fatbird at 3:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
No, read the linked job ad. It's as bad as everyone says. Buechler's paraphrase is hyperbole, but his arguments about it are sound.
posted by fatbird at 3:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Holy shit. As if that maple bacon abomination weren't enough to put me off drinking Rogue.
posted by asperity at 3:05 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by asperity at 3:05 PM on November 26, 2013
Free food is definitely underrated in my book.
Assuming you work six days a week, that's still almost $32 per day for lunch ONLY! Man, if you'd pay me 9k a year, I'd make or deliver your lunch and fetch your lunch pail each day. AND throw in a personalized NOTE too!
posted by FJT at 3:12 PM on November 26, 2013 [14 favorites]
Assuming you work six days a week, that's still almost $32 per day for lunch ONLY! Man, if you'd pay me 9k a year, I'd make or deliver your lunch and fetch your lunch pail each day. AND throw in a personalized NOTE too!
posted by FJT at 3:12 PM on November 26, 2013 [14 favorites]
There's some brogrammer mistakes in the ad, but I'm not convinced they're malicious. I think that the company are probably small enough and they think it's ok to spend more than 37 hours at the job.
I'd like to know what salary they are offering.
I'd also like to know if they're making the millions of dollars hinted at in the linked article. Because if so, then the Penny Arcade "no adverts" Kickstarter that ran recently was a scam. I certainly got the feeling that they're still a small shop, and they don't make a huge amount of money.
posted by zoo at 3:15 PM on November 26, 2013
I'd like to know what salary they are offering.
I'd also like to know if they're making the millions of dollars hinted at in the linked article. Because if so, then the Penny Arcade "no adverts" Kickstarter that ran recently was a scam. I certainly got the feeling that they're still a small shop, and they don't make a huge amount of money.
posted by zoo at 3:15 PM on November 26, 2013
What it really boils down to is the pay. There are plenty of people with that range of skills. What amount of money would make it "not shitty"
posted by Ad hominem at 3:15 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by Ad hominem at 3:15 PM on November 26, 2013
This is still pretty scathing, but it feels a bit less preachy and a bit less ad-hominen
posted by zoo at 3:19 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by zoo at 3:19 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Assuming you work six days a week, that's still almost $32 per day for lunch ONLY! Man, if you'd pay me 9k a year, I'd make or deliver your lunch and fetch your lunch pail each day. AND throw in a personalized NOTE too!
What a coincidence. I am looking for a lunch caterer with the following skillset:
What a coincidence. I am looking for a lunch caterer with the following skillset:
- 5 years experience making lunch.
- 3 note writing.
- Strong skills in project management.
- Ability to configure and maintain multiple server environments, hardware load balancers and accelerators.
I certainly got the feeling that they're still a small shop, and they don't make a huge amount of money.
That doesn't really matter, though.
Either you can afford to hire someone who can do the thing you want, or you can't.
There's no reason workers should take pity on employers for, like, not being WalMart. If you can't afford an IT person or a developer or a designer or whatever, don't hire one.
Whether you bring in millions per year or just scrape by, you still have to pay people what they're worth and provide reasonable working conditions.
posted by Sara C. at 3:21 PM on November 26, 2013 [37 favorites]
That doesn't really matter, though.
Either you can afford to hire someone who can do the thing you want, or you can't.
There's no reason workers should take pity on employers for, like, not being WalMart. If you can't afford an IT person or a developer or a designer or whatever, don't hire one.
Whether you bring in millions per year or just scrape by, you still have to pay people what they're worth and provide reasonable working conditions.
posted by Sara C. at 3:21 PM on November 26, 2013 [37 favorites]
I certainly got the feeling that they're still a small shop, and they don't make a huge amount of money.
This is exactly what Khoo wants you to think, but the point Buechler is making is that the financial scale of operations for PA virtually guarantees that what they're skimming in profits for stakeholders is very generous on an individual level (remember Gabe donating $20k in penance money for his last PR fiasco). Tycho and Gabe and Khoo are almost certainly making serious cash ... and good for them! But it's noxious for Khoo to use that pose of thrifty, earnest artists to screw fanboys out of competitive wages for the position.
Let's be clear: no one is upset with them for building a successful business and charity and relatively progressive convention. But they're essentially saying "We'll pay you shit and work you like a dog and you'll do it because we're PA!"
posted by fatbird at 3:26 PM on November 26, 2013 [16 favorites]
This is exactly what Khoo wants you to think, but the point Buechler is making is that the financial scale of operations for PA virtually guarantees that what they're skimming in profits for stakeholders is very generous on an individual level (remember Gabe donating $20k in penance money for his last PR fiasco). Tycho and Gabe and Khoo are almost certainly making serious cash ... and good for them! But it's noxious for Khoo to use that pose of thrifty, earnest artists to screw fanboys out of competitive wages for the position.
Let's be clear: no one is upset with them for building a successful business and charity and relatively progressive convention. But they're essentially saying "We'll pay you shit and work you like a dog and you'll do it because we're PA!"
posted by fatbird at 3:26 PM on November 26, 2013 [16 favorites]
Either you can afford to hire someone who can do the thing you want, or you can't.
This this this.
The laborer is worth his wage.
posted by PMdixon at 3:26 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
This this this.
The laborer is worth his wage.
posted by PMdixon at 3:26 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
I had two positions in the late 90's that matched this description pretty well, one with a non-profit and then another with a pre-bubble startup. I had a great title at both and was in my 20's. I learned a whole lot as well. But is was non-stop, balls out stupid hectic. Those five years aged me a ton.
As each place grew, I noticed that other employees were only doing one or two jobs, while I kept doing 4 or 5. I finally left both places when I was made to believe that I was not fully appreciating the awesomeness of the opportunity they were giving me.
Oddly enough, I now do anywhere between 2 and 4 jobs, depending on the workload at my company. However, most of the time I think I am decently compensated. I certainly don't get paid for all the jobs at the full rate, but I am paid the market value for my main job, which is several times as much as I was getting at the other places.
I still get bent out of shape when I see someone with only one job at my office and do think that my earlier experiences allow me to accept the multiple hat thing with a little more 'oh well, that's how it is' than I should.
Even with my jaded view on multiple positions, if the job advertised is less than 100k, they are just straight up assholes. And 100k still wouldn't be enough. Even if you cascaded the amount of pay for each job at 80% of market for the first + 40% for each additional job, you would be well over 100k with an actual market value of much closer to 200k.
And then I look at what I do vs. what I make. Kinda mad now. Maybe working for the PA boys wouldn't be so bad.
Ok, it would, but they are going to get a lot of people applying and not just 25 year olds. The subsequent Hacker News post about "How I was a Unicorn for Penny Arcade (and why it sucked balls)" should make for an interesting read.
posted by sciatica at 3:28 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
As each place grew, I noticed that other employees were only doing one or two jobs, while I kept doing 4 or 5. I finally left both places when I was made to believe that I was not fully appreciating the awesomeness of the opportunity they were giving me.
Oddly enough, I now do anywhere between 2 and 4 jobs, depending on the workload at my company. However, most of the time I think I am decently compensated. I certainly don't get paid for all the jobs at the full rate, but I am paid the market value for my main job, which is several times as much as I was getting at the other places.
I still get bent out of shape when I see someone with only one job at my office and do think that my earlier experiences allow me to accept the multiple hat thing with a little more 'oh well, that's how it is' than I should.
Even with my jaded view on multiple positions, if the job advertised is less than 100k, they are just straight up assholes. And 100k still wouldn't be enough. Even if you cascaded the amount of pay for each job at 80% of market for the first + 40% for each additional job, you would be well over 100k with an actual market value of much closer to 200k.
And then I look at what I do vs. what I make. Kinda mad now. Maybe working for the PA boys wouldn't be so bad.
Ok, it would, but they are going to get a lot of people applying and not just 25 year olds. The subsequent Hacker News post about "How I was a Unicorn for Penny Arcade (and why it sucked balls)" should make for an interesting read.
posted by sciatica at 3:28 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
(even more than they already do by outsourcing to countries that have terrible working conditions)
You're soaking in it! In shithole third world nations people have better life-work balance than in the USA on average, seems to me.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:34 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
You're soaking in it! In shithole third world nations people have better life-work balance than in the USA on average, seems to me.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:34 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
To those who were confused by the "transphobic asshole" part of the paraphrase, note that the actual posting does contain this gem:
- You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment.
...which, if you read between the lines, is pretty clearly "Applicants must be fine with us crackin' jokes about rape and shit"
posted by EmGeeJay at 3:39 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
- You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment.
...which, if you read between the lines, is pretty clearly "Applicants must be fine with us crackin' jokes about rape and shit"
posted by EmGeeJay at 3:39 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
I'm less pissed about the job requirements than I am the pay stuff. I work at Google, and we have people called SRE-SWEs who more or less fit this description exactly.
The key difference is, Google is willing to pay them what they deserve, which is to say roughly their weight in sapphires.
posted by Itaxpica at 3:41 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
The key difference is, Google is willing to pay them what they deserve, which is to say roughly their weight in sapphires.
posted by Itaxpica at 3:41 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
Shit, one of us is going to have to apply and fly out there and interview to find out what they are actually offering. We should get a pool going on the salary range. I'm going with 75-80k.
posted by Ad hominem at 3:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Ad hominem at 3:45 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Are we doing a pool? My bet's 50K.
posted by griphus at 3:49 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by griphus at 3:49 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd bet 50k "but you get free snacks and sodas whoooaoaoaoa!" in full shitty-startup style.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
Re the transphobic thing: the evidence is linked from Buecheler's post.
Here.
Here.
posted by klanawa at 4:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here.
Here.
posted by klanawa at 4:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Pretty much anyone who's reading this far down is familiar with Gabe's Greatest Hits by now.
That aside, if they're looking for something of this degree of importance:
"We rely heavily on outside partners and vendors, but as far as managing and helping run/deploy the technical infrastructure to most of the things we do, we rely on one person. That person is you."
and they're doing the things they do and they're not offering in six figures, they deserve the crash-and-burn they're going to get.
Maybe they're just trying to change the headlines manually, so the next big PA story will be "Massive Technical Fuckup Cripples PAX" instead of "Gabe Finds New Group To Horrify."
posted by delfin at 4:09 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
That aside, if they're looking for something of this degree of importance:
"We rely heavily on outside partners and vendors, but as far as managing and helping run/deploy the technical infrastructure to most of the things we do, we rely on one person. That person is you."
and they're doing the things they do and they're not offering in six figures, they deserve the crash-and-burn they're going to get.
Maybe they're just trying to change the headlines manually, so the next big PA story will be "Massive Technical Fuckup Cripples PAX" instead of "Gabe Finds New Group To Horrify."
posted by delfin at 4:09 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
As someone who has been applying for a lot of jobs lately, this just seems par for the course.
I mean when you have a dozen people each with multiple degrees and certifications and years of experience applying for one job driving a frozen foods delivery van, employers just start chucking random shit into job advertisements.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:22 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I mean when you have a dozen people each with multiple degrees and certifications and years of experience applying for one job driving a frozen foods delivery van, employers just start chucking random shit into job advertisements.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:22 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
...which, if you read between the lines, is pretty clearly "Applicants must be fine with us crackin' jokes about rape and shit"
I'm sure that's exactly what it is. This is a comic with a robot called the Fruit Fucker 2000. I'm sure there's stuff they come up with in the office that's too tasteless to actually publish too. If tasteless jokes bother you, then work somewhere else.
posted by aubilenon at 4:28 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm sure that's exactly what it is. This is a comic with a robot called the Fruit Fucker 2000. I'm sure there's stuff they come up with in the office that's too tasteless to actually publish too. If tasteless jokes bother you, then work somewhere else.
posted by aubilenon at 4:28 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
If I were in charge of running an extremely successful business that already employes a few dozen people, and I was concerned about finding exactly the right addition to the team, this would not have gone out publicly. Like, I would have reached into my vast network of professional contacts (as they surely have), and found just the right person, and thrown money at them.
The only reason why I can think of to post publicly to their entire fanbase, is because they are looking to find someone with high skill, but low cost. They're casting a wide net so they can find someone to exploit.
The thing is, that itself isn't the issue. Like, this is how almost all companies operate: it wouldn't be a well run business if they consistently overpaid, or hired underperforming people. But what is offensive here is that what they're doing is contrary to their own expressed values. Like they've made comics that make fun of this exact bullshit. They've worked bullshit jobs before. They have an entire side project about how shitty it is to work in shitty tech jobs. They love thinking of themselves (and more to the point, marketing themselves) as the geek underdogs that just happened to make it.
Add to this the fact that they undoubtedly have plenty in the warchest, and they could lure the best people there Google-style if they wanted to... I'm not sure there's a charitable interpretation of events here.
posted by danny the boy at 4:30 PM on November 26, 2013 [19 favorites]
The only reason why I can think of to post publicly to their entire fanbase, is because they are looking to find someone with high skill, but low cost. They're casting a wide net so they can find someone to exploit.
The thing is, that itself isn't the issue. Like, this is how almost all companies operate: it wouldn't be a well run business if they consistently overpaid, or hired underperforming people. But what is offensive here is that what they're doing is contrary to their own expressed values. Like they've made comics that make fun of this exact bullshit. They've worked bullshit jobs before. They have an entire side project about how shitty it is to work in shitty tech jobs. They love thinking of themselves (and more to the point, marketing themselves) as the geek underdogs that just happened to make it.
Add to this the fact that they undoubtedly have plenty in the warchest, and they could lure the best people there Google-style if they wanted to... I'm not sure there's a charitable interpretation of events here.
posted by danny the boy at 4:30 PM on November 26, 2013 [19 favorites]
I was guessing that the combination of that and the work/life balance thing meant they could feel ok only hiring straight white dudes in their 20s without families.
posted by NoraReed at 4:31 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 4:31 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'll apply, probably won't make it past the initial glance tho.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:35 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:35 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm an MBA, with some knowledge of the tricks of how some of the less ethical HR-types look for people. Khoo is knowledgeable enough about business that he probably knows this stuff too:
1. Always put more requirements in the job description than you need. First, applicants tend to apply even if they don't meet all job requirements. So if you need someone to do 5 things, and ask for someone who can do 8 things, you'll get applications from people who can do 6 things. But there's another trick to it as well. If you get an application from someone who can't do every little thing on the job description, you can use that in salary negotiations, and say "well, you can't do everything we wanted, but we'll give you a chance. Of course, we'll have to pay a little less..."
2. Non-monetary benefits are great for luring in young applicants who don't know any better. Google, for example, offers free food. To some kid out of college, that sounds great. But think about it-the free food they're offering that impressed you so much is instead of a larger salary. And by giving you free food, they're getting you to work much longer hours, for the same wages.
3. The no work life balance is a warning-you'll be moving on. People fresh out of school are ok with it. But people who have been in the workforce, have wives, families, etc, are not going to be ok with it. They'll want money for the kid's braces, not a table tennis tournament. In other words, whoever gets this job will eventually outgrow it, and leave after a few years of awfulness. At which time they'll be replaced by someone younger.
4. You're all in this together (Except when you're not). The job description does a great job of making it sound like a long working day is just the way the PA crew rolls. But think about it: Gabe and Tycho have wives and kids and have hobbies like golf that require being away from the office. Do you think that they're going to be working 24/7 right along side you? Not so. You'll be working long hours. They will not be cheering you on while you fix that server on a nice Sunday afternoon.
5. Some employees are more equal than others. This job's never going to get better. Here's the deal. Generally, the people at a company that matter most and get paid the most are the people that contribute to the bottom line. If you're an aerospace engineering company, the aerospace department is where HR's going to spend money for salaries. At Google, the budget gets spent on developers. And at Penny Arcade, they make money from comics and art that is used for merchandising. Which means that even if PA's profits triple, that money's not going to go to the IT guy, since he's not contributing to the bottom line. It'll go to graphic designers.
The upshot is that even without the whole "we don't care about money" shtick this is a pretty shady looking job post. It's designed specifically to get a young IT type who doesn't know enough to realize they're probably getting taken for a ride.
posted by unreason at 4:36 PM on November 26, 2013 [98 favorites]
1. Always put more requirements in the job description than you need. First, applicants tend to apply even if they don't meet all job requirements. So if you need someone to do 5 things, and ask for someone who can do 8 things, you'll get applications from people who can do 6 things. But there's another trick to it as well. If you get an application from someone who can't do every little thing on the job description, you can use that in salary negotiations, and say "well, you can't do everything we wanted, but we'll give you a chance. Of course, we'll have to pay a little less..."
2. Non-monetary benefits are great for luring in young applicants who don't know any better. Google, for example, offers free food. To some kid out of college, that sounds great. But think about it-the free food they're offering that impressed you so much is instead of a larger salary. And by giving you free food, they're getting you to work much longer hours, for the same wages.
3. The no work life balance is a warning-you'll be moving on. People fresh out of school are ok with it. But people who have been in the workforce, have wives, families, etc, are not going to be ok with it. They'll want money for the kid's braces, not a table tennis tournament. In other words, whoever gets this job will eventually outgrow it, and leave after a few years of awfulness. At which time they'll be replaced by someone younger.
4. You're all in this together (Except when you're not). The job description does a great job of making it sound like a long working day is just the way the PA crew rolls. But think about it: Gabe and Tycho have wives and kids and have hobbies like golf that require being away from the office. Do you think that they're going to be working 24/7 right along side you? Not so. You'll be working long hours. They will not be cheering you on while you fix that server on a nice Sunday afternoon.
5. Some employees are more equal than others. This job's never going to get better. Here's the deal. Generally, the people at a company that matter most and get paid the most are the people that contribute to the bottom line. If you're an aerospace engineering company, the aerospace department is where HR's going to spend money for salaries. At Google, the budget gets spent on developers. And at Penny Arcade, they make money from comics and art that is used for merchandising. Which means that even if PA's profits triple, that money's not going to go to the IT guy, since he's not contributing to the bottom line. It'll go to graphic designers.
The upshot is that even without the whole "we don't care about money" shtick this is a pretty shady looking job post. It's designed specifically to get a young IT type who doesn't know enough to realize they're probably getting taken for a ride.
posted by unreason at 4:36 PM on November 26, 2013 [98 favorites]
"A lot of people find incredible satisfaction working for the military, in physically and mentally demanding, low-pay jobs, but they're celebrated. Why is this so different?"
You're seriously comparing being in the Army, ostensibly defending the country, with working at Penny Arcade?
Man, enjoy your new job.
posted by klangklangston at 4:40 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
You're seriously comparing being in the Army, ostensibly defending the country, with working at Penny Arcade?
Man, enjoy your new job.
posted by klangklangston at 4:40 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
even if PA's profits triple, that money's not going to go to the IT guy, since he's not contributing to the bottom line. It'll go to graphic designers.
Which is an incorrect way to view things, of course. Without the IT guy, the graphic designers are just fashionably dressed people staring at an Adobe error message.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 4:41 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
Which is an incorrect way to view things, of course. Without the IT guy, the graphic designers are just fashionably dressed people staring at an Adobe error message.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 4:41 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
Mitrovarr: "likeatoaster: Well the ad does say this: "You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment." So.
To me, that statement is at least as egregious as the bit about the salary -- it's basically the opposite of the cookie-cutter HR statement on most job postings stating that they welcome diverse applicants.
I am astonished they put that in for liability reasons alone. To a lawyer, I think that would read "We know we are out of compliance with various equal opportunity and workplace harrassment laws and refuse to address it."
There has to be a way to do this, though, right? I mean, if your company makes, say, porn, even very exotic and offensive porn, there has to be a way to advertise jobs in that company, mention that the work's subject is potentially offensive, and still be able to advertise? Some jobs are inherently offensive to a lot of people. I'm not sure if applies in this case, but people who make comics about "Dickwolves" are making a potentially offensive product, and it's obviously legal to do so, so how does that work?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:41 PM on November 26, 2013
To me, that statement is at least as egregious as the bit about the salary -- it's basically the opposite of the cookie-cutter HR statement on most job postings stating that they welcome diverse applicants.
I am astonished they put that in for liability reasons alone. To a lawyer, I think that would read "We know we are out of compliance with various equal opportunity and workplace harrassment laws and refuse to address it."
There has to be a way to do this, though, right? I mean, if your company makes, say, porn, even very exotic and offensive porn, there has to be a way to advertise jobs in that company, mention that the work's subject is potentially offensive, and still be able to advertise? Some jobs are inherently offensive to a lot of people. I'm not sure if applies in this case, but people who make comics about "Dickwolves" are making a potentially offensive product, and it's obviously legal to do so, so how does that work?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:41 PM on November 26, 2013
Hmm.
I thought this was going to be something about the other Penny Arcade.
Um... ok.. oh well.
:(
posted by freakazoid at 4:45 PM on November 26, 2013
I thought this was going to be something about the other Penny Arcade.
Um... ok.. oh well.
:(
posted by freakazoid at 4:45 PM on November 26, 2013
Which is an incorrect way to view things, of course. Without the IT guy, the graphic designers are just fashionably dressed people staring at an Adobe error message.
True. But the way to look at it is this: You have a certain amount of money. You can either spend it on a level 8 graphics guy and a level 5 IT guy, or a level 5 graphics guy and a level 8 IT guy. So they'll spend something on IT, but never as much as they do on graphics.
There has to be a way to do this, though, right? I mean, if your company makes, say, porn, even very exotic and offensive porn, there has to be a way to advertise jobs in that company, mention that the work's subject is potentially offensive, and still be able to advertise
Jobs like that aren't as problematic as you'd think. The general rule is that it's ok if it's a justifiable part of the job. So for example, if you're a porn star, it's a reasonable expectation that you're required to be naked. So you can't sue over that. If you're an accountant though and they tell you to take your clothes off, you can take that to court because it's not a necessary part of doing your job. Which puts PA in a bad position; it's questionable whether an offensive work environment is an essential part of being an IT person. And warning the applicant about it in advance probably won't do anything to shield them.
posted by unreason at 4:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
True. But the way to look at it is this: You have a certain amount of money. You can either spend it on a level 8 graphics guy and a level 5 IT guy, or a level 5 graphics guy and a level 8 IT guy. So they'll spend something on IT, but never as much as they do on graphics.
There has to be a way to do this, though, right? I mean, if your company makes, say, porn, even very exotic and offensive porn, there has to be a way to advertise jobs in that company, mention that the work's subject is potentially offensive, and still be able to advertise
Jobs like that aren't as problematic as you'd think. The general rule is that it's ok if it's a justifiable part of the job. So for example, if you're a porn star, it's a reasonable expectation that you're required to be naked. So you can't sue over that. If you're an accountant though and they tell you to take your clothes off, you can take that to court because it's not a necessary part of doing your job. Which puts PA in a bad position; it's questionable whether an offensive work environment is an essential part of being an IT person. And warning the applicant about it in advance probably won't do anything to shield them.
posted by unreason at 4:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
If Penny Arcade is so amazing how come I'm telling them to go fuck themselves?
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [11 favorites]
Received today: Sr. UI opportunity - The "Yelp" for Cannabis - Seattle
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM on November 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
In shithole third world nations people have better life-work balance than in the USA on average, seems to me.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:34 PM on November 26
To the extent that this is not sarcasm, you are comprehensively out of your mind.
posted by ambient2 at 5:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 3:34 PM on November 26
To the extent that this is not sarcasm, you are comprehensively out of your mind.
posted by ambient2 at 5:03 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
If tasteless jokes bother you, then work somewhere else.
I think MetaFilter needs to get some new IT rockstars too; we're getting comments that were supposed to have been posted in 1955, apparently.
posted by griphus at 5:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
I think MetaFilter needs to get some new IT rockstars too; we're getting comments that were supposed to have been posted in 1955, apparently.
posted by griphus at 5:05 PM on November 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
Joakim Ziegler: There has to be a way to do this, though, right? I mean, if your company makes, say, porn, even very exotic and offensive porn, there has to be a way to advertise jobs in that company, mention that the work's subject is potentially offensive, and still be able to advertise? Some jobs are inherently offensive to a lot of people. I'm not sure if applies in this case, but people who make comics about "Dickwolves" are making a potentially offensive product, and it's obviously legal to do so, so how does that work?
Well, in this case, it's easy - you hire someone who has familiarity with the product. If someone wants to work for Penny Arcade because they're Penny Arcade, they are presumably ok with working for the guys who produced the fruit fucker and the dickwolves and whatnot. They know what they're getting themselves into in regard to the content of the comic.
In general, though, I'd say an offensive environment is not the same thing as an offensive product. The only thing about working at Penny Arcade that should be potentially offensive to the IT guy is the comic itself. If that's the concern, it would be better to just directly state that. As it reads now, it feels much more like they do and say offensive things all of the time, and if you don't like it, you shouldn't work there. And while I understand where that attitude is coming from, warning potential employees ahead of time doesn't give you the right to not enforce anti-harassment laws. In fact, it kind of makes any violation look willful. Businesses need to be careful about this sort of thing.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:11 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
Well, in this case, it's easy - you hire someone who has familiarity with the product. If someone wants to work for Penny Arcade because they're Penny Arcade, they are presumably ok with working for the guys who produced the fruit fucker and the dickwolves and whatnot. They know what they're getting themselves into in regard to the content of the comic.
In general, though, I'd say an offensive environment is not the same thing as an offensive product. The only thing about working at Penny Arcade that should be potentially offensive to the IT guy is the comic itself. If that's the concern, it would be better to just directly state that. As it reads now, it feels much more like they do and say offensive things all of the time, and if you don't like it, you shouldn't work there. And while I understand where that attitude is coming from, warning potential employees ahead of time doesn't give you the right to not enforce anti-harassment laws. In fact, it kind of makes any violation look willful. Businesses need to be careful about this sort of thing.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:11 PM on November 26, 2013 [8 favorites]
griphus: Penny Arcade is a company for which tasteless jokes is a core part of their business. They have published comics that, if hung on the wall of an office, could be considered part of a hostile work environment. But the IT person/webmaster/etc will at least have to occasionally look at the comics she's responsible for serving up.
posted by aubilenon at 5:15 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by aubilenon at 5:15 PM on November 26, 2013
Google, for example, offers free food. To some kid out of college, that sounds great
Maybe I should re-evaluate my priorities. Still sounds great to me. I just want maybe some brisket and mashed potatoes, and some onion soup. PA just give me onion soup and you can make all the offensive jokes you want near me.
posted by Ad hominem at 5:23 PM on November 26, 2013
Maybe I should re-evaluate my priorities. Still sounds great to me. I just want maybe some brisket and mashed potatoes, and some onion soup. PA just give me onion soup and you can make all the offensive jokes you want near me.
posted by Ad hominem at 5:23 PM on November 26, 2013
Mitrovarr breaks it down above better than I can; the comic's content and the office environment are two very different things. The entire 'hostile work environment' concept falls apart if you extrapolate what is okay in one part of the job to the entire company. The entire pornography industry would be exempt from charges of sexual harassment because, hey, if you don't like playful slaps on the ass, you shouldn't be working here in a acting-unrelated capacity because we're shooting Ass Slappers XII and you gotta watch that as part of your job.
posted by griphus at 5:24 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by griphus at 5:24 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
True. But the way to look at it is this: You have a certain amount of money. You can either spend it on a level 8 graphics guy and a level 5 IT guy, or a level 5 graphics guy and a level 8 IT guy. So they'll spend something on IT, but never as much as they do on graphics.
Oh, that's a somewhat understandable viewpoint, but the idea that IT is purely a cost center is kind of ludicrous. Unfortunately, you encounter it everywhere. If it does come time to cut something out of the budget, the executives making those decisions are always the last to see reductions in service, so they don't view cutting the IT budget as an actual problem, even if it ultimately ends up making the organization less productive.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 5:35 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh, that's a somewhat understandable viewpoint, but the idea that IT is purely a cost center is kind of ludicrous. Unfortunately, you encounter it everywhere. If it does come time to cut something out of the budget, the executives making those decisions are always the last to see reductions in service, so they don't view cutting the IT budget as an actual problem, even if it ultimately ends up making the organization less productive.
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 5:35 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
The Penny Arcade guys are in the gaming industry. In the 90's, I did a stint in the gaming industry. I was initially amazed at how much better I got paid than in grad school. In my last interview in the industry, I got as far as negotiating a salary with the GM for a Large Gaming Company. The GM told me, "why would I hire you at salary $X? Kids are crawling over broken glass to work here. I can hire three new college grads for your salary." My response was, "I have an offer for $X + $a_bunch with a medical imaging company..." He laughed and said, "you should take that offer!" There was more back-and-forth, but we didn't find common ground and I took the much higher paying medical imaging dev job. Years later I always thought about that conversation every time I logged into a giant MMORPG like World of Warcraft and wondered how many straight-out-of-college developers it took to create all of that content and code. I think there are plenty of talented kids who haven't found their market value yet (or don't care yet) who are going to be willing to fill that Penny Arcade job, at least for a year or two.
posted by kovacs at 5:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by kovacs at 5:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
- You should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment.
..which equals if you're a woman, don't bother applying unless you're okay with us potentially making rape/sexist comments that might never make it to the comic, but hey, you signed up for this, right? So you must be cool with that?
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
..which equals if you're a woman, don't bother applying unless you're okay with us potentially making rape/sexist comments that might never make it to the comic, but hey, you signed up for this, right? So you must be cool with that?
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
continuing to read penny arcade well into this decade is possibly the only thing i've done post age-25 that i'm ashamed of
but i'm all better now
posted by rap and country at 6:09 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
but i'm all better now
posted by rap and country at 6:09 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Jeanne: “I find it hard to believe that there are many people out there who can code well in multiple front-end and back-end languages, do server maintenance and database admin, and so on, who don't know what they're actually worth. ”Precisely. I could do this job. Hell, it wouldn't even be hard work once you get things running smoothly. My "what I would charge my Mother" rate is $1,000 per day plus expenses.
burnmp3s: “if there's nothing stopping a company from hiring devs at minimum wage and working them ten hours a day seven days a week, then that's where the industry is going to push things towards”I don't think big-business will ever switch IT and development from salaried-exempt because they don't want to open up even the possibility that programmers will form a union. Furthermore, the ACM pretty explicitly wants programmers to be thought of as the equivalent of other professional jobs like doctor or lawyer. Which, as you say, is kind of irreverent if people keep shipping the work to Bangalore.
Itaxpica: “The key difference is, Google is willing to pay them what they deserve, which is to say roughly their weight in sapphires.”Sapphires you say…
posted by ob1quixote at 6:11 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
This posting also doesn't make sense from another perspective; I can't imagine it would cost less to get one individual able to competently do all of these jobs at the same time, then it would to split it up among a few people who could each do part of it decently. You'd think getting a couple of normal IT people working normal schedules would be cheaper than getting one superstar to work like a lunatic. They're probably also do a much better job of it, they wouldn't get burned out as quickly, and they wouldn't all turn over at the same time.
posted by Mitrovarr at 6:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 6:17 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
I find it hard to believe that there are many people out there who can code well in multiple front-end and back-end languages, do server maintenance and database admin, and so on, who don't know what they're actually worth.
Um, just out of idle curiosity, how much are such unicorns actually worth?
posted by saulgoodman at 6:21 PM on November 26, 2013
Um, just out of idle curiosity, how much are such unicorns actually worth?
posted by saulgoodman at 6:21 PM on November 26, 2013
Yo if they actually included free sodas, we'd be golden. That's at least 1/3 of my current salary.
posted by SharkParty at 6:29 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by SharkParty at 6:29 PM on November 26, 2013
Um, just out of idle curiosity, how much are such unicorns actually worth?
Per Itaxpica's comment about Google's Site Reliability Engineers, glassdoor.com says $66k to $223k (!) per year. Google is always on the high side, but... wow.
posted by underflow at 6:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Per Itaxpica's comment about Google's Site Reliability Engineers, glassdoor.com says $66k to $223k (!) per year. Google is always on the high side, but... wow.
posted by underflow at 6:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
saulgoodman: "I find it hard to believe that there are many people out there who can code well in multiple front-end and back-end languages, do server maintenance and database admin, and so on, who don't know what they're actually worth.
Um, just out of idle curiosity, how much are such unicorns actually worth?"
They don't get their pay on a debit card.
posted by double block and bleed at 6:39 PM on November 26, 2013
Um, just out of idle curiosity, how much are such unicorns actually worth?"
They don't get their pay on a debit card.
posted by double block and bleed at 6:39 PM on November 26, 2013
They ain't google by a long shot. We are talking A full stack LAMP dev here with ops experience and common network hardware experience. Not someone with cutting edge experience on huge data centers and massively scalable programming paradigms.
I'm thinking 120k-130k in the real world.
posted by Ad hominem at 6:42 PM on November 26, 2013
I'm thinking 120k-130k in the real world.
posted by Ad hominem at 6:42 PM on November 26, 2013
> Google is always on the high side
Not so. Google is pretty well industry-standard if not a little below (I took a pretty large pay cut to go there, something I never regretted). They make up for it in stellar benefits, decent bonuses and stock options.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:15 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Not so. Google is pretty well industry-standard if not a little below (I took a pretty large pay cut to go there, something I never regretted). They make up for it in stellar benefits, decent bonuses and stock options.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 7:15 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
How is Facebook considered these days, I ask for no reason?
posted by Artw at 7:52 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:52 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can't imagine it would cost less to get one individual able to competently do all of these jobs at the same time, then it would to split it up among a few people who could each do part of it decently.
Evidently you've never managed a company. Do you have any idea how much overhead and taxes there are associated with each employee, irrespective of how much they work? Social Security taxes, for instance. Other taxes. Lots of paperwork.
And if your employee count goes up to 50, then you cross a magical "Oh-shit" line in Obamacare and your expenses skyrocket. A lot of companies out there are jumping through hoops to keep their body-count under 50.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Evidently you've never managed a company. Do you have any idea how much overhead and taxes there are associated with each employee, irrespective of how much they work? Social Security taxes, for instance. Other taxes. Lots of paperwork.
And if your employee count goes up to 50, then you cross a magical "Oh-shit" line in Obamacare and your expenses skyrocket. A lot of companies out there are jumping through hoops to keep their body-count under 50.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:55 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
The opinions of other webcomic creators I follow are universally negative. The best one I've seen so far comes from MeFi's Own R. Stevens, long-running perpetrator of the MUCH funnier Diesel Sweeties. I stand with Clango.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:06 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:06 PM on November 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
They've needed to hire a decent PR person for a while now
I work in this field, and a large part of the job is basically telling execs and spokespeople not to say certain things, and then not to respond to certain things etc etc. I genuinely believe it could help them.
And let's also keep in mind that in no point do they actually list a salary or a salary range?
This is not so uncommon in the IT sector (in which I work). You can generally guess by the years of experience requested etc. It's frustrating, and I disagree with it vehemently, but it's SOP at a lot of places (including my large, IT employer). A job like this is generally a less than 6 years experience job, I would say.
..which equals if you're a woman, don't bother applying unless you're okay with us potentially making rape/sexist comments that might never make it to the comic, but hey, you signed up for this, right? So you must be cool with that?
I am hardly a fan of Penny Arcade, but I think it would probably be more fair to judge them on what they have actually said rather than our own angry, sarcastic extrapolations. Given an absence of employee complaints etc, I would tend to take them at their word. I have no idea how many employees they have; they may indeed have a problem with diversity hiring; this is a problem extremely common in the IT sector, sad to say; especially with smaller companies.
posted by smoke at 8:11 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
I work in this field, and a large part of the job is basically telling execs and spokespeople not to say certain things, and then not to respond to certain things etc etc. I genuinely believe it could help them.
And let's also keep in mind that in no point do they actually list a salary or a salary range?
This is not so uncommon in the IT sector (in which I work). You can generally guess by the years of experience requested etc. It's frustrating, and I disagree with it vehemently, but it's SOP at a lot of places (including my large, IT employer). A job like this is generally a less than 6 years experience job, I would say.
..which equals if you're a woman, don't bother applying unless you're okay with us potentially making rape/sexist comments that might never make it to the comic, but hey, you signed up for this, right? So you must be cool with that?
I am hardly a fan of Penny Arcade, but I think it would probably be more fair to judge them on what they have actually said rather than our own angry, sarcastic extrapolations. Given an absence of employee complaints etc, I would tend to take them at their word. I have no idea how many employees they have; they may indeed have a problem with diversity hiring; this is a problem extremely common in the IT sector, sad to say; especially with smaller companies.
posted by smoke at 8:11 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
I don't know, Smoke. I work in tech/gaming PR, and if these guys ever approached us I'd run like hell - they seem totally unmanageable. You can tell a CEO not to say dumb shit all day long and it's not worth a whistle if they ignore you.
posted by OrangeDrink at 8:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by OrangeDrink at 8:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is truly, truly vile and shocking. I have some pearls for clutching purposes if anyone needs them, I will be in the fainting room; just knock on the glass .
posted by Sebmojo at 8:35 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Sebmojo at 8:35 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
bt-dubs, how does the pool work? Is it Price Is Right rules? Because if so I guess $51K (sorry griphus)
posted by en forme de poire at 8:52 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by en forme de poire at 8:52 PM on November 26, 2013
(grand prize is not taking this job)
posted by en forme de poire at 8:54 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by en forme de poire at 8:54 PM on November 26, 2013
MCMikeNamara: "...accepting a job posting like this as 'occasionally acceptable because of [x]' is exactly what leads to shitty jobs becoming the new norm."
Exactly. Employers realize that if they just keep everyone else anxious, depressed and generally worried about work prospects, the "fair market price" for employees will go down to nice low levels for them. Keep the people depressed and prices will be depressed, too.
posted by jiawen at 9:11 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Exactly. Employers realize that if they just keep everyone else anxious, depressed and generally worried about work prospects, the "fair market price" for employees will go down to nice low levels for them. Keep the people depressed and prices will be depressed, too.
posted by jiawen at 9:11 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't know, Smoke. I work in tech/gaming PR, and if these guys ever approached us I'd run like hell - they seem totally unmanageable. You can tell a CEO not to say dumb shit all day long and it's not worth a whistle if they ignore you.
I completely agree - I should have prefaced that with "if they would take the advice...".
posted by smoke at 9:13 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I completely agree - I should have prefaced that with "if they would take the advice...".
posted by smoke at 9:13 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I do like how people in this thread are throwing around $50k as if it were some insulting token wage not fit for anyone. Clearly, I am in the wrong field.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:54 PM on November 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
I don't see anything wrong with the req. At least he's upfront that he wants a unicorn/santa. Why not? Working at penny-arcade isn't like working at IBM or Microsoft, it's a dream job for a lot of really nerdy, really smart guys out there.
Why shouldn't they leverage the fact that lots of people would be willing to take less money to work there? Believe it or not, money isn't everything to everyone. it's all the pizza they can eat either way.
..and at the end of the day, they can say they worked at penny arcade. Seems like a fair deal to me.
posted by jonclegg at 10:04 PM on November 26, 2013
Why shouldn't they leverage the fact that lots of people would be willing to take less money to work there? Believe it or not, money isn't everything to everyone. it's all the pizza they can eat either way.
..and at the end of the day, they can say they worked at penny arcade. Seems like a fair deal to me.
posted by jonclegg at 10:04 PM on November 26, 2013
> Why shouldn't they leverage the fact that lots of people would be willing to take less money to work there?
Well, for one thing, it's been murder on their reputation. A blog post a year from now by a hypothetical PA employee's miserable wife in the spirit of EA Spouse would be another huge blow. You treat people right because it's good for business.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:08 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well, for one thing, it's been murder on their reputation. A blog post a year from now by a hypothetical PA employee's miserable wife in the spirit of EA Spouse would be another huge blow. You treat people right because it's good for business.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:08 PM on November 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I clicked on the job link. I like that Khoo requests you to follow him on twitter for updates and in case of emails getting sent to spam folders. Yes, make a shitty job offer AND increase your twitter followers at the same time - genius!
posted by Joh at 10:16 PM on November 26, 2013
posted by Joh at 10:16 PM on November 26, 2013
they can say they worked at penny arcade. Seems like a fair deal to me.
Not really, because what does "saying you worked at Penny Arcade" even get you?
If it were Google or something, sure. That's going to look great on a resume. Or, if the position was for an inker or a graphic designer, yeah, that's a strong resume entry right there because PA is a widely known and very successful web comic. Hey, if they worked in PR, being able to claim credit for turning PA's sorry reputation around is a fucking professional goldmine.
But coding and general IT work around the office? Nobody is going to look at that resume, see they worked for Penny Arcade, and think anything special.
The name just isn't that valuable.
And it's not like their reputation implies a really fun work environment, unless you are the biggest brogrammer asshole ever.
They say right there in the ad that they're going to work you to the bone and the pay is shit.
Nobody should be willing to take less money to work there.
I mean, I don't know what folks imagine a job there is like, but...? The slight chance that you'll meet some dudes who draw this one internet comic? Aside from the saddest variety of fame-whoring and name-dropping ever, I'm not seeing it.
posted by Sara C. at 10:21 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not really, because what does "saying you worked at Penny Arcade" even get you?
If it were Google or something, sure. That's going to look great on a resume. Or, if the position was for an inker or a graphic designer, yeah, that's a strong resume entry right there because PA is a widely known and very successful web comic. Hey, if they worked in PR, being able to claim credit for turning PA's sorry reputation around is a fucking professional goldmine.
But coding and general IT work around the office? Nobody is going to look at that resume, see they worked for Penny Arcade, and think anything special.
The name just isn't that valuable.
And it's not like their reputation implies a really fun work environment, unless you are the biggest brogrammer asshole ever.
They say right there in the ad that they're going to work you to the bone and the pay is shit.
Nobody should be willing to take less money to work there.
I mean, I don't know what folks imagine a job there is like, but...? The slight chance that you'll meet some dudes who draw this one internet comic? Aside from the saddest variety of fame-whoring and name-dropping ever, I'm not seeing it.
posted by Sara C. at 10:21 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Believe it or not, money isn't everything to everyone. it's all the pizza they can eat either way.
If they'd phrased it as "we don't pay a lot, but our employees have awesome lives through a combination of this being an incredible workplace, and our determination to reward employees in other ways like a decent work-life balance", then they'd not be getting this much flack.
Instead, they said "we want a workaholic who'll accept crap wages by industry standards", and they're counting on fanboyism to cough up some reasonably suitable candidate. This is as clear a case of exploitation as can be dreamed up in the tech sector. They simultaneously mock the inhumanity of the games industry as an employer, while entrenching and benefiting from it themselves.
And in IT terms, working at Penny Arcade is basically worthless because they offer no technical challenges. They have a high volume blog, they outsource their forums, and they stream video. This adds nothing to one's resume because, as much as we like to imagine that working someplace that cool might open doors, the hiring manager will always pick the more experienced candidate who spent those same years doing something technically challenging and demonstrating real geek chops. Unless, of course, it's Robert Khoo's little brother doing the hiring, in which case a solid demonstration of being exploitable is a plus.
posted by fatbird at 10:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
If they'd phrased it as "we don't pay a lot, but our employees have awesome lives through a combination of this being an incredible workplace, and our determination to reward employees in other ways like a decent work-life balance", then they'd not be getting this much flack.
Instead, they said "we want a workaholic who'll accept crap wages by industry standards", and they're counting on fanboyism to cough up some reasonably suitable candidate. This is as clear a case of exploitation as can be dreamed up in the tech sector. They simultaneously mock the inhumanity of the games industry as an employer, while entrenching and benefiting from it themselves.
And in IT terms, working at Penny Arcade is basically worthless because they offer no technical challenges. They have a high volume blog, they outsource their forums, and they stream video. This adds nothing to one's resume because, as much as we like to imagine that working someplace that cool might open doors, the hiring manager will always pick the more experienced candidate who spent those same years doing something technically challenging and demonstrating real geek chops. Unless, of course, it's Robert Khoo's little brother doing the hiring, in which case a solid demonstration of being exploitable is a plus.
posted by fatbird at 10:23 PM on November 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
They simultaneously mock the inhumanity of the games industry as an employer, while entrenching and benefiting from it themselves.
Also, since Penny Arcade is a web comic and not the games industry, comparing it to games industry jobs is sort of beside the point.
I work in film/TV. It can be pretty grueling, and there are a lot of weird work conditions that are accepted in our industry that wouldn't fly in others.
If a web comic about film/TV fandom was hiring and demanded that their IT/backend person work 16 hour days, only go to lunch after six hours on the job, and no paid days off ever, I'd cry bullshit for sure.
posted by Sara C. at 10:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, since Penny Arcade is a web comic and not the games industry, comparing it to games industry jobs is sort of beside the point.
I work in film/TV. It can be pretty grueling, and there are a lot of weird work conditions that are accepted in our industry that wouldn't fly in others.
If a web comic about film/TV fandom was hiring and demanded that their IT/backend person work 16 hour days, only go to lunch after six hours on the job, and no paid days off ever, I'd cry bullshit for sure.
posted by Sara C. at 10:33 PM on November 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, at least they're not offering " exposure" as compensation. That puts then ahead of most graphic artist job offers on the internet.
posted by happyroach at 12:39 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 12:39 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Well perhaps they'll bring back the behind the scenes vid series (though I suspect another series of Strip Search) and then we'll see how it all (kinda) works out
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:54 AM on November 27, 2013
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:54 AM on November 27, 2013
Actually they should literally buy a slave and call it Dickwolves III: The Final Conflict, that would be hilarious.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:57 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:57 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think that is a very, very tenuous reading of a thread where reams have been written with only v occasional reference to dickwolves. I mean, staggeringly tenuous.
posted by ominous_paws at 3:19 AM on November 27, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 3:19 AM on November 27, 2013 [8 favorites]
#QCJobPostings is a hashtag of Questionable Content's Jeph Jacques and friends mocking this. The initial tweets:
posted by graymouser at 3:38 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Wanted: one motivated web developer to work 60 hour weeks in exchange for a drawing of faye's butt #QCJobPostingsSo it's not like other webcomic creators think this is in any way normal either.
We're not a very money-oriented team. But we are EXTREMELY motivated by fancy guitars. Bring yours. #QCJobPostings
You will be expected to brew coffee, walk my dogs, clean my gutters, shine my shoes, polish my decorative anime figurines #QCJobPostings
I will yell at you about indie rock's obsession with novelty for 4-6 hours a day #QCJobPostings
posted by graymouser at 3:38 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
But as a developer/architect - bluntly, anyone who claims they are your web designer, programmer, dba and sysadmin is probably not good enough at 2-3 of those things to run a high volume website like Penny Arcade. I hope this costs them a shit-ton more money than they "save" by underpaying one person to do the work of four.
posted by graymouser at 3:40 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by graymouser at 3:40 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
His point is that if your advertisement brings in a thousand applicants, you didn't write it correctly. The thing to do is to toss all of them, and rewrite the ad to make the job less attractive and more challenging. The ideal result is that you get exactly one person applying for the job, and his qualifications are perfect.Also 4) men, as it's generally the case that women underrate their abilities and overrate how much of these requirements they need to fullfill to be hired, while men do the opposite.
I just wanted to say really quickly that yes, this is a "rational" thing to do in that it will definitely get you fewer applicants. In practice, however, it's really selecting for 1. people who have the most confidence in their own abilities, 2. people who don't flinch at unreasonable demands, and 3. people who are very ambitious.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:42 AM on November 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
I still get bent out of shape when I see someone with only one job at my office and do think that my earlier experiences allow me to accept the multiple hat thing with a little more 'oh well, that's how it is' than I should.
Yes, you're an idiot if you do more work than you're being paid for; it's not just a question of taking care of yourself, your hard work is literally stealing the jobs of those 2-4 other people that could've been doing them, for no benefit to you but huge benefits to the coorporation you're working for.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:51 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yes, you're an idiot if you do more work than you're being paid for; it's not just a question of taking care of yourself, your hard work is literally stealing the jobs of those 2-4 other people that could've been doing them, for no benefit to you but huge benefits to the coorporation you're working for.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:51 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
"A lot of people find incredible satisfaction working for the military, in physically and mentally demanding, low-pay jobs, but they're celebrated.
Again, these people are as much celebrated for the noble (sic) calling they've undertaken as for being willing to be exploited. Tommy Atkins anyone?
posted by MartinWisse at 4:00 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Again, these people are as much celebrated for the noble (sic) calling they've undertaken as for being willing to be exploited. Tommy Atkins anyone?
posted by MartinWisse at 4:00 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
I do like how people in this thread are throwing around $50k as if it were some insulting token wage not fit for anyone. Clearly, I am in the wrong field.
Whatever your field is right now, halve what you make and/or double your hours. Is it still fair compensation for your labor?
$50K is a good chunk of money but not remotely adequate compensation for that job. Hell, I could spend all day naming jobs you probably wouldn't do for $50K and if this was your field, you could easily add this one to that list.
posted by griphus at 4:46 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Whatever your field is right now, halve what you make and/or double your hours. Is it still fair compensation for your labor?
$50K is a good chunk of money but not remotely adequate compensation for that job. Hell, I could spend all day naming jobs you probably wouldn't do for $50K and if this was your field, you could easily add this one to that list.
posted by griphus at 4:46 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't know; when people have written so much about the non-dickwolves realted aspects of this, to just go ahead and tell them that they're really just mad about dickwolves and are just fooling themselves seems extremely presumptuous, maybe even a little insulting.
posted by ominous_paws at 4:47 AM on November 27, 2013 [16 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 4:47 AM on November 27, 2013 [16 favorites]
With regards to the military, it's really not a fair comparison. The military has benefits like nowhere else. Free healthcare for your whole nuclear family. Housing benefits. Access to the Commissary. An amazing pension. Access to legal services for you and your family. Job security, for heaven's sake, who the hell has that?? The VA healthcare system even after you're out of the military. USAA insurance products. Beneficial hiring for federal government and afaik many state government jobs. I don't even know what else.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:00 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Salamandrous at 5:00 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Which means that even if PA's profits triple, that money's not going to go to the IT guy, since he's not contributing to the bottom line. It'll go to graphic designers.
As a graphic designer, I can assure you that no money is going to graphic designers.
I had someone call me up last week and offer me a job doing production work for $12/hr. I have 17 years of experience. I'm currently making the same money I did 10 years ago, and I'm lucky to have a job.
It's a horrible job market right now.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:19 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
As a graphic designer, I can assure you that no money is going to graphic designers.
I had someone call me up last week and offer me a job doing production work for $12/hr. I have 17 years of experience. I'm currently making the same money I did 10 years ago, and I'm lucky to have a job.
It's a horrible job market right now.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:19 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
it's that PA has burned a huge amount of goodwill with their fanbase and a lot of folks with raw feeling are using this as an opportunity to vent about them again
No, this is a hobbyhorse you need to get off of. People are reacting because this is a very public, very awful job opening from a media empire acting like it's a small start-up. It's the kind of thing where, if a webcomic I still liked and read did it, I'd stop reading it - because they don't have any respect for people who do the kind of work I do. Long hours with four different hats for startup shares or great money are one thing; asking people to do it for below industry rates because they're super-fans is quite another.
Everyone seems to be snowballing outrage over this based on the tone of the original rant posted in the FPP, which was very light on context to begin with.
Did you read the actual job posting? It's exactly as ridiculous as the OP makes it out to be. They made asses of themselves on the internet, what exactly do you expect in terms of "context"?
posted by graymouser at 5:37 AM on November 27, 2013 [8 favorites]
No, this is a hobbyhorse you need to get off of. People are reacting because this is a very public, very awful job opening from a media empire acting like it's a small start-up. It's the kind of thing where, if a webcomic I still liked and read did it, I'd stop reading it - because they don't have any respect for people who do the kind of work I do. Long hours with four different hats for startup shares or great money are one thing; asking people to do it for below industry rates because they're super-fans is quite another.
Everyone seems to be snowballing outrage over this based on the tone of the original rant posted in the FPP, which was very light on context to begin with.
Did you read the actual job posting? It's exactly as ridiculous as the OP makes it out to be. They made asses of themselves on the internet, what exactly do you expect in terms of "context"?
posted by graymouser at 5:37 AM on November 27, 2013 [8 favorites]
This now being the second comment where you've tried to put words in my mouth, your case that there isn't a presence of people in this thread actively searching for something to get mad about is pretty weak.
Your major contribution to this thread has been mass mind-reading and ascribing unknowable intent to others, and you're complaining that the problem is that you're the one being misrepresented?
posted by tocts at 5:45 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your major contribution to this thread has been mass mind-reading and ascribing unknowable intent to others, and you're complaining that the problem is that you're the one being misrepresented?
posted by tocts at 5:45 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
My solution: either hire 2-4 people to do the job, or at least don't straight-up say in the job posting "you will work crazy hours and be paid peanuts" like it's something to be proud of offering.
posted by Itaxpica at 6:09 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Itaxpica at 6:09 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
This now being the second comment where you've tried to put words in my mouth, your case that there isn't a presence of people in this thread actively searching for something to get mad about is pretty weak.
Dude your entire point is trying to put words into the mouths of almost all contributors to this thread. Are you now doing performance art idk
posted by ominous_paws at 6:10 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Dude your entire point is trying to put words into the mouths of almost all contributors to this thread. Are you now doing performance art idk
posted by ominous_paws at 6:10 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Honestly? A solution.
This has been all over the thread: at minimum 2 or 3 people should be doing this work, and it should be for industry standard pay. You can have a web developer who also does software; you can have a software developer who does databases (I'm in that kind of position now); you can have a network administrator who overlaps on the databases, but asking for all four is getting into serious non-overlapping skill sets.
No one really good enough to do all four - and dedicated enough to work insane hours (it's outright stated in the job spec) - should be willing to work for a company that wants to "spend less on salary."
But seriously, why should anyone here be responsible for a "solution" to Penny Arcade's idiotic job offering? This is not a free consulting service, it's a community discussion. The upshot, which you seem to object to for some reason, is that the IT field is worse off when high profile job listings like this come up. That's why it concerns people like me.
posted by graymouser at 6:27 AM on November 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
This has been all over the thread: at minimum 2 or 3 people should be doing this work, and it should be for industry standard pay. You can have a web developer who also does software; you can have a software developer who does databases (I'm in that kind of position now); you can have a network administrator who overlaps on the databases, but asking for all four is getting into serious non-overlapping skill sets.
No one really good enough to do all four - and dedicated enough to work insane hours (it's outright stated in the job spec) - should be willing to work for a company that wants to "spend less on salary."
But seriously, why should anyone here be responsible for a "solution" to Penny Arcade's idiotic job offering? This is not a free consulting service, it's a community discussion. The upshot, which you seem to object to for some reason, is that the IT field is worse off when high profile job listings like this come up. That's why it concerns people like me.
posted by graymouser at 6:27 AM on November 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
I am hardly a fan of Penny Arcade, but I think it would probably be more fair to judge them on what they have actually said rather than our own angry, sarcastic extrapolations.
I don't know, I see that "offensive environment" comment and think it "actually says" more than enough. I'm not an IT/developer type, but even if I were I would not feel comfortable applying to this position as a woman.
There's a thing I've learned from okcupid, of all places, that totally applies to this ad; if a person says, up front, that they like "offensive" things, aren't "politically correct," think "you can make a joke about anything", etc--that means they are going to say those offensive things ALL THE FREAKING TIME and disregard anyone who complains. If you have to say it up front, you're treating it as an immutable part of your personality that's not going to change. I know plenty of people who enjoy a raunchy joke every now and again, but they are not trumpeting it to the world even on their online dating profiles, let alone on job postings that are going to get millions of views. It's a thing that comes up organically, when joke-telling occasions present themselves.
Also, in my experience, it's always men who make such a huge point of enjoying "offensive" jokes. I see the offensive environment line and immediately think of a guy I once went on a date with, who told me that of course anyone can joke about anything, and the mark of a true feminist man is the ability to make "women jokes," including rape jokes. Run-ins with dudes like that, coupled with the other notable PA missteps we've all rehashed a million times, are why people are immediately extrapolating an "all rape jokes all the time" environment.
Later on the date with "women jokes" dude, I said that I don't believe you really can make jokes about anything, and gave an example of one of my personal boundaries; namely, I won't tolerate jokes about suicide. His immediate response was "well, I guess I won't tell you my Kurt Cobain joke, hurf durf." This sort of deliberate boundary pushing is something that I've come to expect from anyone who makes a point of their offensiveness--this idea that "hey, I told you I have no boundaries, your fault you're so sensitive for having any." I recoil immediately if I see any hint of this in a dating profile, where I have a say in who I message and respond. In the Penny Arcade offices, you apparently have no say in whether you're surrounded by people with those attitudes or not. And if you're offended, well, tough luck, you're gonna be putting in some long-ass days in a small office.
posted by ActionPopulated at 6:38 AM on November 27, 2013 [22 favorites]
I don't know, I see that "offensive environment" comment and think it "actually says" more than enough. I'm not an IT/developer type, but even if I were I would not feel comfortable applying to this position as a woman.
There's a thing I've learned from okcupid, of all places, that totally applies to this ad; if a person says, up front, that they like "offensive" things, aren't "politically correct," think "you can make a joke about anything", etc--that means they are going to say those offensive things ALL THE FREAKING TIME and disregard anyone who complains. If you have to say it up front, you're treating it as an immutable part of your personality that's not going to change. I know plenty of people who enjoy a raunchy joke every now and again, but they are not trumpeting it to the world even on their online dating profiles, let alone on job postings that are going to get millions of views. It's a thing that comes up organically, when joke-telling occasions present themselves.
Also, in my experience, it's always men who make such a huge point of enjoying "offensive" jokes. I see the offensive environment line and immediately think of a guy I once went on a date with, who told me that of course anyone can joke about anything, and the mark of a true feminist man is the ability to make "women jokes," including rape jokes. Run-ins with dudes like that, coupled with the other notable PA missteps we've all rehashed a million times, are why people are immediately extrapolating an "all rape jokes all the time" environment.
Later on the date with "women jokes" dude, I said that I don't believe you really can make jokes about anything, and gave an example of one of my personal boundaries; namely, I won't tolerate jokes about suicide. His immediate response was "well, I guess I won't tell you my Kurt Cobain joke, hurf durf." This sort of deliberate boundary pushing is something that I've come to expect from anyone who makes a point of their offensiveness--this idea that "hey, I told you I have no boundaries, your fault you're so sensitive for having any." I recoil immediately if I see any hint of this in a dating profile, where I have a say in who I message and respond. In the Penny Arcade offices, you apparently have no say in whether you're surrounded by people with those attitudes or not. And if you're offended, well, tough luck, you're gonna be putting in some long-ass days in a small office.
posted by ActionPopulated at 6:38 AM on November 27, 2013 [22 favorites]
So here's what you do - you find a technological genius and convince him it would be fun to get the job, tie up the entire Penny Arcade infrastructure into a neat and encrypted bow, then turn it into a showtunes torrent site and walk away with the passwords.
posted by Mooski at 6:41 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Mooski at 6:41 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
I will say that Khoo is an utter genius for extracting money from anything and everything... it took me more than a little while to realise that an episode of two of their web series which revolved around practical joking* - mainly the hiding of can(s) of a certain FAMOUS BRAND OF SODA in each others offices was one long product placement ad for said FAMOUS BRAND OF SODA.
*And if there's one thing that's going to make a workplace toxic for me is extensive 'practical joking' and other forced wackiness
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:18 AM on November 27, 2013
*And if there's one thing that's going to make a workplace toxic for me is extensive 'practical joking' and other forced wackiness
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:18 AM on November 27, 2013
I've watched the behind the scenes videos too. I don't ever see myself getting along with Mike Krahulik on a personal or profession level, but the company appears to be 12 people who all very much love their jobs.
Yeah, never once have I ever watched a video of their office and thought, "Wow, I'd like to spend time with those people every day, all the days." I make an entry-level salary at a place where I am also doing the jobs of at least two people, and also some social media/graphic design/etc., because I work at a non-profit. But you know what? I get enough of a 403(b) match that they could pay this hypothetical new job up to 180k and I'd still be getting more in matching funds. (Way, way less money overall, but way better benefits.) That's kind of sad, and it speaks poorly of their operation's goal to cheap out on benefits-- when I see an ad with aspects like this, I think it's indicative of a company's work culture as a whole.
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:29 AM on November 27, 2013
Yeah, never once have I ever watched a video of their office and thought, "Wow, I'd like to spend time with those people every day, all the days." I make an entry-level salary at a place where I am also doing the jobs of at least two people, and also some social media/graphic design/etc., because I work at a non-profit. But you know what? I get enough of a 403(b) match that they could pay this hypothetical new job up to 180k and I'd still be getting more in matching funds. (Way, way less money overall, but way better benefits.) That's kind of sad, and it speaks poorly of their operation's goal to cheap out on benefits-- when I see an ad with aspects like this, I think it's indicative of a company's work culture as a whole.
posted by jetlagaddict at 7:29 AM on November 27, 2013
One of the problems with the "offensive environment" thing is that it doesn't cut both ways. Let's say that I take this job. Gabe and Tycho will say things that are offensive all day long. But let's say that I make fun of them. They wouldn't be happy with that at all. In fact they weren't cool with it in the past; they've talked in their posts about being picked on for liking video games, and complaining about gamers' portrayal in the media. So it's not an environment where anyone can say anything. It's an environment where they can say anything. You can say anything as long as they approve of it. If you made a joke about, say, one of their wives being ugly, do you honestly think they'd be cool with that? It's very similar to what fundamentalists do. They say they like people to be "politically incorrect" and speak their minds, but if you made fun of their religion, suddenly they wouldn't be ok with it.
posted by unreason at 7:31 AM on November 27, 2013 [20 favorites]
posted by unreason at 7:31 AM on November 27, 2013 [20 favorites]
Also, at the end of the posting, he mentions that you should probably be a fan of Penny Arcade, but it occurs to me that a really big value add for this job, if you happen to qualify for the position and wouldn't be relying on it for money, is that if you happen to despise Penny Arcade and you can play nice for a little while, there are a lot of opportunities for sabotage.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:40 AM on November 27, 2013
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:40 AM on November 27, 2013
Not that I'm suggesting anyone would or should do that, mind you, just that I hope Khoo lent a lot of thought to the way that his clients spend a lot of time painting targets on their own backs, and the fact that he's pretty much offering the keys to the kingdom here.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:41 AM on November 27, 2013
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:41 AM on November 27, 2013
The employee leaving this position discuses it on the Penny Arcade Forums. (He's leaving for more money).
posted by borkencode at 8:15 AM on November 27, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by borkencode at 8:15 AM on November 27, 2013 [13 favorites]
Even when I go home, I’m usually working at some point. I keep my laptop next to my bed so I can do a little work when I wake up.
There will be people who are like this (and the author makes that point) and consider it all worth it, even if they leave down the road for more money. And once you're through the door, they do sound like a crew that genuinely welcomes you and cares for you as more than a cog.
So why screw someone on the salary then?
posted by fatbird at 8:25 AM on November 27, 2013
There will be people who are like this (and the author makes that point) and consider it all worth it, even if they leave down the road for more money. And once you're through the door, they do sound like a crew that genuinely welcomes you and cares for you as more than a cog.
So why screw someone on the salary then?
posted by fatbird at 8:25 AM on November 27, 2013
^ Some parts of that gave me the full cold horrors, and now I have no idea if I'm not able to get beyond my own idea of what a good job is, or if the situation is genuinely exploitative. Hm.
posted by ominous_paws at 8:27 AM on November 27, 2013
posted by ominous_paws at 8:27 AM on November 27, 2013
Mitrovarr, 50K is more than I make now and indeed more than I have ever made, but it is well below what someone with this skill set would normally be able to make. (Not making a moral claim there, of course.) I agree though that the amount is ultimately sort of irrelevant to how distasteful this ad is as written.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:27 AM on November 27, 2013
posted by en forme de poire at 8:27 AM on November 27, 2013
All the "nobody can do that job" really makes me want to apply.
The major pain point for me would be Linux administration, it has been years since I have managed a Linux server professionally.
First step for me would be to automate apache and mysql deployment/configuration tasks using sometihng like Puppet, Chef or whatever the best is right now.
Second step for me would be getting existing source into good shape if it is not already. GIT and some kind of CI setup. Enforce a sensible branching scheme. And the important part, button down the deployment process. No fucking hand tweaking config files at 4am. Roll that shit out with one script.
Third step put some kind sensible scheduling/developing/testing/UAT for future dev tasks. Dropping dev tasks to fight fires for a few hours can be bad, but dropping dev tasks for extended periods of time over scheduling changes and business whims can be a killer.
Fourth would be rolling out AD and sensible GPOs. If nothing else I would want to use AD to automate deployment of in house software.
Seems like a fun job really. My main gripe with my job right now is I can't touch network hardware. I have to get the network guys on the phone and explain the problem and how to fix it. I would save so much time if I could just do my own firewall and HWLB configuration.
posted by Ad hominem at 8:35 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
The major pain point for me would be Linux administration, it has been years since I have managed a Linux server professionally.
First step for me would be to automate apache and mysql deployment/configuration tasks using sometihng like Puppet, Chef or whatever the best is right now.
Second step for me would be getting existing source into good shape if it is not already. GIT and some kind of CI setup. Enforce a sensible branching scheme. And the important part, button down the deployment process. No fucking hand tweaking config files at 4am. Roll that shit out with one script.
Third step put some kind sensible scheduling/developing/testing/UAT for future dev tasks. Dropping dev tasks to fight fires for a few hours can be bad, but dropping dev tasks for extended periods of time over scheduling changes and business whims can be a killer.
Fourth would be rolling out AD and sensible GPOs. If nothing else I would want to use AD to automate deployment of in house software.
Seems like a fun job really. My main gripe with my job right now is I can't touch network hardware. I have to get the network guys on the phone and explain the problem and how to fix it. I would save so much time if I could just do my own firewall and HWLB configuration.
posted by Ad hominem at 8:35 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
As far as on-call is concerned, you are the only one on call. Prepare to have a laptop and some way of connecting to the internet with you at all times. Want to go on a hike somewhere there's no reception? Sorry, you can't. It's one of the hard realities of this job, and you should be aware of it going in.So how common is that scenario in this field?
posted by griphus at 8:36 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's usually in rotation.
posted by Artw at 8:38 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:38 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
People seem to disregard this notion of a “work family”, and it is certainly abused in other contexts, but it is really really real here.
I'd say that's a thing that young guys go through, get enthused by and then rapidly see the downside of and grow out of, but hey, this isn't his first job. Maybe the horrible culture at Amazon makes that kind of bullshit a relief.
posted by Artw at 8:41 AM on November 27, 2013
I'd say that's a thing that young guys go through, get enthused by and then rapidly see the downside of and grow out of, but hey, this isn't his first job. Maybe the horrible culture at Amazon makes that kind of bullshit a relief.
posted by Artw at 8:41 AM on November 27, 2013
So how common is that scenario in this field?
Like Artw says, it's not uncommon, but it's usually part of a rotation. When I had to be on-call at RSA, I got $300 for being on call on the weekend (weekdays was handled by their follow-the-sun model with support centres around the world), and then there was a flat fee added per call I handled. So it was a bit onerous, but it was also compensated--in fact, if you wanted to hand off because you wanted that weekend, you often had no trouble finding volunteers.
Sometimes the SecurId guys got slammed, but that could mean a $1,000 weekend.
posted by fatbird at 8:51 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Like Artw says, it's not uncommon, but it's usually part of a rotation. When I had to be on-call at RSA, I got $300 for being on call on the weekend (weekdays was handled by their follow-the-sun model with support centres around the world), and then there was a flat fee added per call I handled. So it was a bit onerous, but it was also compensated--in fact, if you wanted to hand off because you wanted that weekend, you often had no trouble finding volunteers.
Sometimes the SecurId guys got slammed, but that could mean a $1,000 weekend.
posted by fatbird at 8:51 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
So how common is that scenario in this field?
My position now have an elaborate call sheet and support flow chart and I'm never technically "on call" but the reality is that I can get a call at any time to perform production break-fixes. In the case of "SEV-1" tickets that remained unresolved for some set amount of time I get a call. SEV-1 would mean work is stopped and we are violating SLAs.
This is a global company so it is not uncommon for operators in India to be at a standstill, get a call, and find out it is some kind of network outage.
posted by Ad hominem at 8:54 AM on November 27, 2013
My position now have an elaborate call sheet and support flow chart and I'm never technically "on call" but the reality is that I can get a call at any time to perform production break-fixes. In the case of "SEV-1" tickets that remained unresolved for some set amount of time I get a call. SEV-1 would mean work is stopped and we are violating SLAs.
This is a global company so it is not uncommon for operators in India to be at a standstill, get a call, and find out it is some kind of network outage.
posted by Ad hominem at 8:54 AM on November 27, 2013
Also one other thing he mentions: " If you want to work 80 or more hours at something you truly enjoy, in fact you don’t want to stop working ever because you love it so much, shouldn’t that be okay too?"
So we've got 80 hours a week as an average, right? If they hired this person for a wage, they'd be legally mandated to pay no less than $50K a year (assuming a $9.32 minimum wage and time and a half for overtime as WA state requires.)
posted by griphus at 8:54 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
So we've got 80 hours a week as an average, right? If they hired this person for a wage, they'd be legally mandated to pay no less than $50K a year (assuming a $9.32 minimum wage and time and a half for overtime as WA state requires.)
posted by griphus at 8:54 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
(Obviously they will not be hiring an 80-hour-a-week job as a wage.)
posted by griphus at 8:55 AM on November 27, 2013
posted by griphus at 8:55 AM on November 27, 2013
a vast bulk of the outrage over the job posting is actually just a lot of people who want to keep having the Dickwolves conversation.
Not really. I'm only dimly aware of the whole Dickwolves controversy, not being a serious reader of Penny Arcade.
But that's the thing.
I don't really read Penny Arcade regularly.
I don't attend PAX (though I know lots of people who do).
I'm very tangential to their entire scene.
And yet pretty much the only thing I know about Penny Arcade is that they're a bunch of assholes who think rape jokes are funny.
This is pretty much the foundational reason why PR exists. Because when your company really puts their foot in something, you want to be able to do damage control, manage your reputation, and make people think of things other than how they hate you and don't want to patronize your business.
So, yes, without wanting to rehash the Dickwolves conversation, Penny Arcade is patently in need of a good PR person.
posted by Sara C. at 9:32 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Not really. I'm only dimly aware of the whole Dickwolves controversy, not being a serious reader of Penny Arcade.
But that's the thing.
I don't really read Penny Arcade regularly.
I don't attend PAX (though I know lots of people who do).
I'm very tangential to their entire scene.
And yet pretty much the only thing I know about Penny Arcade is that they're a bunch of assholes who think rape jokes are funny.
This is pretty much the foundational reason why PR exists. Because when your company really puts their foot in something, you want to be able to do damage control, manage your reputation, and make people think of things other than how they hate you and don't want to patronize your business.
So, yes, without wanting to rehash the Dickwolves conversation, Penny Arcade is patently in need of a good PR person.
posted by Sara C. at 9:32 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
All the "nobody can do that job" really makes me want to apply.
It's not "nobody can do that job" - it's that the number of candidates who (a) are proficient enough to perform all four of those jobs well at the same time, (b) willing to work insanely long hours for a company advertising zero work/life balance, and (c) willing to take a relatively low salary to work at Penny Arcade, is probably vanishingly small. My bet is that Penny Arcade's insistence on (b) and (c) will cause them to get someone who is lacking in (a) - either due to inexperience or overwork.
As far as the "challenge factor" goes - well, I think this says pretty much what needs to be said.
posted by graymouser at 9:53 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not "nobody can do that job" - it's that the number of candidates who (a) are proficient enough to perform all four of those jobs well at the same time, (b) willing to work insanely long hours for a company advertising zero work/life balance, and (c) willing to take a relatively low salary to work at Penny Arcade, is probably vanishingly small. My bet is that Penny Arcade's insistence on (b) and (c) will cause them to get someone who is lacking in (a) - either due to inexperience or overwork.
As far as the "challenge factor" goes - well, I think this says pretty much what needs to be said.
posted by graymouser at 9:53 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
willing to take a relatively low salary to work at Penny Arcade
That is what this all hinges on, the money. And all of this is pure supposition unless we have a number.
I interpret "we are not money focused" somewhat differently. I think he is saying "we aren't going to IPO and all become billionaires"
posted by Ad hominem at 10:06 AM on November 27, 2013
That is what this all hinges on, the money. And all of this is pure supposition unless we have a number.
I interpret "we are not money focused" somewhat differently. I think he is saying "we aren't going to IPO and all become billionaires"
posted by Ad hominem at 10:06 AM on November 27, 2013
But there is zero chance of that actually happening.
I've looked at a lot of job listings -- and especially a lot of listings for media companies along the lines of PA -- and have never seen a disclaimer that you are not going to become an instant billionaire from working there.
What I have seen a lot of, which this listing also has, is no mention of salary or money at all, but with lots of hints that whatever the number is, it ain't going to wow me.
Now, I'm prepared to believe that there could be a method to the "no numbers, say things in the ad that imply the pay will be low" game which doesn't result in trying to pay people way less than they're worth.
But all signs point to PA paying people way less than they're worth.
posted by Sara C. at 10:10 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
I've looked at a lot of job listings -- and especially a lot of listings for media companies along the lines of PA -- and have never seen a disclaimer that you are not going to become an instant billionaire from working there.
What I have seen a lot of, which this listing also has, is no mention of salary or money at all, but with lots of hints that whatever the number is, it ain't going to wow me.
Now, I'm prepared to believe that there could be a method to the "no numbers, say things in the ad that imply the pay will be low" game which doesn't result in trying to pay people way less than they're worth.
But all signs point to PA paying people way less than they're worth.
posted by Sara C. at 10:10 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
That is what this all hinges on, the money. And all of this is pure supposition unless we have a number.
The person who currently holds this position (who is leaving) has now publicly stated:
"It is true that I am paid below market value, but not so significantly as folks on the internet assume. I live quite comfortably on this salary, and while it’s less than I could make elsewhere, it’s not out of the bounds of reasonable expectation."
How, exactly, is it supposition to assume the pay is low? The very person leaving, whose salary is in all likelihood setting the salary range for this position, admits that he has been paid under market value for his work.
Can we now agree that the "we can't know whether the job is low paying" line of argument is well and truly dead?
Additionally, knowing now that this is an attempt to replace a specific person leaving, this really does strike me as a basic mistake a lot of small companies make. A company hires someone to wear one hat (maybe two), and over a few years they end up picking up a few more due to already having some experience in another area, or via osmosis, or whatever. Later, that person leaves, and the company's reaction is, "we need to hire a simulacrum of the person who is leaving!".
This is almost never really the right approach. The hats that person ended up wearing (beyond their primary role) were most likely lucky fits for that particular person, not something you can just expect of anyone in that primary role. If they had started with a different candidate, the secondary/tertiary duties they ended up with may have been vastly different. To make this even harder, a person who started at a lower position and has moved into more responsibility internally often doesn't have the context to understand what they should be compensated for that additional work, versus someone looking from the outside in.
Basically, as you move from a small company to a mid-sized company, you are going to find that there are people who you lucked into being the perfect fit for multiple roles that can only really be replaced by multiple people as you grow.
posted by tocts at 10:12 AM on November 27, 2013 [6 favorites]
The person who currently holds this position (who is leaving) has now publicly stated:
"It is true that I am paid below market value, but not so significantly as folks on the internet assume. I live quite comfortably on this salary, and while it’s less than I could make elsewhere, it’s not out of the bounds of reasonable expectation."
How, exactly, is it supposition to assume the pay is low? The very person leaving, whose salary is in all likelihood setting the salary range for this position, admits that he has been paid under market value for his work.
Can we now agree that the "we can't know whether the job is low paying" line of argument is well and truly dead?
Additionally, knowing now that this is an attempt to replace a specific person leaving, this really does strike me as a basic mistake a lot of small companies make. A company hires someone to wear one hat (maybe two), and over a few years they end up picking up a few more due to already having some experience in another area, or via osmosis, or whatever. Later, that person leaves, and the company's reaction is, "we need to hire a simulacrum of the person who is leaving!".
This is almost never really the right approach. The hats that person ended up wearing (beyond their primary role) were most likely lucky fits for that particular person, not something you can just expect of anyone in that primary role. If they had started with a different candidate, the secondary/tertiary duties they ended up with may have been vastly different. To make this even harder, a person who started at a lower position and has moved into more responsibility internally often doesn't have the context to understand what they should be compensated for that additional work, versus someone looking from the outside in.
Basically, as you move from a small company to a mid-sized company, you are going to find that there are people who you lucked into being the perfect fit for multiple roles that can only really be replaced by multiple people as you grow.
posted by tocts at 10:12 AM on November 27, 2013 [6 favorites]
It is true that I am paid below market value, but not so significantly as folks on the internet assume. I live quite comfortably on this salary, and while it’s less than I could make elsewhere, it’s not out of the bounds of reasonable expectation.
So it isn't so significant as people are assuming and he lives quite comfortably? That doesn't sound like they are exploiting people or scraping the bottom of the barrel.
We've heard in this thread that Google also pays below market value as well, they get good candidates.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:20 AM on November 27, 2013
So it isn't so significant as people are assuming and he lives quite comfortably? That doesn't sound like they are exploiting people or scraping the bottom of the barrel.
We've heard in this thread that Google also pays below market value as well, they get good candidates.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:20 AM on November 27, 2013
We've heard in this thread that Google also pays below market value as well, they get good candidates.
If you get a job at Google you get to do innovative work that will make your job interesting and will make your resume stand out from the rest when you want to go somewhere else and make a higher salary. At PA you'll do unremarkable IT drudgery, and no one's going to be more interested in hiring you because you worked for PA as opposed to Company X. Not to mention that at Google there is a possibility you could move into management, whereas that's not a possibility at PA.
posted by unreason at 10:27 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
If you get a job at Google you get to do innovative work that will make your job interesting and will make your resume stand out from the rest when you want to go somewhere else and make a higher salary. At PA you'll do unremarkable IT drudgery, and no one's going to be more interested in hiring you because you worked for PA as opposed to Company X. Not to mention that at Google there is a possibility you could move into management, whereas that's not a possibility at PA.
posted by unreason at 10:27 AM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
I feel like the goal posts have been moved from this is straight up exploitation to, yeah you could do slightly better financially someplace else.
People are motivated by all kinds of strange things beyond money or min/maxing their resume. For instance, I'm motivated by free food.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:33 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
People are motivated by all kinds of strange things beyond money or min/maxing their resume. For instance, I'm motivated by free food.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:33 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I feel like the goal posts have been moved from this is straight up exploitation to, yeah you could do slightly better financially someplace else.
You're paid under market rates [though for a single person with no dependents who doesn't want to save money it's ok] and you work late regularly with no compensating time off and you're on call 24/7 for no extra pay so you cannot even go for a hike or see a movie, you're at the bottom of the ladder. And though the person doesn't say it, the offer does say that they have an offensive environment.
That sounds closer to exploitation than "slightly worse than average".
posted by jeather at 10:43 AM on November 27, 2013 [6 favorites]
You're paid under market rates [though for a single person with no dependents who doesn't want to save money it's ok] and you work late regularly with no compensating time off and you're on call 24/7 for no extra pay so you cannot even go for a hike or see a movie, you're at the bottom of the ladder. And though the person doesn't say it, the offer does say that they have an offensive environment.
That sounds closer to exploitation than "slightly worse than average".
posted by jeather at 10:43 AM on November 27, 2013 [6 favorites]
I feel like the goal posts have been moved from this is straight up exploitation to, yeah you could do slightly better financially someplace else.
Actually I think the main issue is the gall of using "we’re not a terribly money-motivated group" to excuse paying a below-average salary for a shitty job with awful hours, and hoping that fanboy enthusiasm makes up the difference, while the operation is making plenty of money.
posted by graymouser at 10:45 AM on November 27, 2013 [6 favorites]
Actually I think the main issue is the gall of using "we’re not a terribly money-motivated group" to excuse paying a below-average salary for a shitty job with awful hours, and hoping that fanboy enthusiasm makes up the difference, while the operation is making plenty of money.
posted by graymouser at 10:45 AM on November 27, 2013 [6 favorites]
The on-call requirement would be the deal breaker for me (assuming I wanted to work for PA). It means there's no backup or redundancy at all. No movies? No weekends ever off call? I have a job with on-call requirements ... But I'm only on-call every N weeks (N is my current team size.) Does 24/7 mean not being able to go on vacation for years? It's absurd. So what happens when your one IT guy gets hit by a bus .... A couple hours before PAX Prime tickets go on sale and some servers just failed? That is poor management and planning. Who wants to work for people so foolish? Now if they really were just scraping by (i.e. an actual startup) it might be okay but by all accounts the PA empire is making a fair bit of money ...
posted by R343L at 10:53 AM on November 27, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by R343L at 10:53 AM on November 27, 2013 [12 favorites]
There are a ton of people who could do that stupid job. I could probably do it, though I perceive myself a little deficient in one or two of these areas - but then I've been paid to do them before.
But you'd be nuts to do it. ONE person? On call for any problem that comes up, anywhere, at any time?
And the work would be boring. Or if you didn't know the technology initially, it'd be terrifying at first, and fairly soon boring if you survived.
Oh, and let me be clear about Google - while the pay was somewhat below market rates, the total compensation package with benefits and bonuses is quite competitive. But it isn't extravagant - just "reasonable" (for this IMHO overpriced field).
(Yes, it's funny to call it overpriced when I'm in it, but, well... I think vital positions like teachers and nurses and social workers should be paid a lot more, with the money coming from financiers, doctors - and computer programmers like myself.)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:55 AM on November 27, 2013
But you'd be nuts to do it. ONE person? On call for any problem that comes up, anywhere, at any time?
And the work would be boring. Or if you didn't know the technology initially, it'd be terrifying at first, and fairly soon boring if you survived.
Oh, and let me be clear about Google - while the pay was somewhat below market rates, the total compensation package with benefits and bonuses is quite competitive. But it isn't extravagant - just "reasonable" (for this IMHO overpriced field).
(Yes, it's funny to call it overpriced when I'm in it, but, well... I think vital positions like teachers and nurses and social workers should be paid a lot more, with the money coming from financiers, doctors - and computer programmers like myself.)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:55 AM on November 27, 2013
shitty job
This is my main beef with this conversation. I have had jobs like this and so have many other people. I didn't think they were shitty. I thought they were an adventure with something new every day.
There are plenty of people here who go into fields because they love them, and are willing to put up with an astounding amount of crap to do them. When I hear people talk about academia I blanch at what they put up with but I don't call it a shitty job.
Let's be clear here. We are talking about a qualified professional in a seller's market choosing to take slightly less pay for reasons of their own. We aren't talking coal miners here.
Of course I agree that 365 24/7 on-call duty is impractical from a business standpoint. They really need to rectify that somehow unless they don't really care about HA or DR scenarios. I personally don't see it as a serious drawback because when I'm not actively working I am sitting at a computer anyway.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:04 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is my main beef with this conversation. I have had jobs like this and so have many other people. I didn't think they were shitty. I thought they were an adventure with something new every day.
There are plenty of people here who go into fields because they love them, and are willing to put up with an astounding amount of crap to do them. When I hear people talk about academia I blanch at what they put up with but I don't call it a shitty job.
Let's be clear here. We are talking about a qualified professional in a seller's market choosing to take slightly less pay for reasons of their own. We aren't talking coal miners here.
Of course I agree that 365 24/7 on-call duty is impractical from a business standpoint. They really need to rectify that somehow unless they don't really care about HA or DR scenarios. I personally don't see it as a serious drawback because when I'm not actively working I am sitting at a computer anyway.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:04 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
You Say Underling, I Say Overqualified
posted by graymouser at 11:05 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by graymouser at 11:05 AM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
A company hires someone to wear one hat (maybe two), and over a few years they end up picking up a few more due to already having some experience in another area, or via osmosis, or whatever.
When I started my current job, I wore 1.5 very specifically defined hats. Now I wear about four - but I share those hats with other people. Most of those hats are not hats that fit me and only me - other people know how to do the crucial bits of my job that Murphy's Law says will *have* to be done the minute I go on vacation or get sick, and the same is true for me knowing the crucial bits of other peoples' jobs so that they can also go on vacation or get sick without the office grinding to a halt. Maybe this is true for the position PA is advertising, but the "you are on call 24/7" doesn't give me confidence that it is. Putting that much power and expectation of institutional knowledge into the hands of one single person seems like a terrible idea to me.
posted by rtha at 11:14 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
When I started my current job, I wore 1.5 very specifically defined hats. Now I wear about four - but I share those hats with other people. Most of those hats are not hats that fit me and only me - other people know how to do the crucial bits of my job that Murphy's Law says will *have* to be done the minute I go on vacation or get sick, and the same is true for me knowing the crucial bits of other peoples' jobs so that they can also go on vacation or get sick without the office grinding to a halt. Maybe this is true for the position PA is advertising, but the "you are on call 24/7" doesn't give me confidence that it is. Putting that much power and expectation of institutional knowledge into the hands of one single person seems like a terrible idea to me.
posted by rtha at 11:14 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Eh, I give up.
PA, please send a check or a tureen of soup if you want me to keep defending you.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:14 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
PA, please send a check or a tureen of soup if you want me to keep defending you.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:14 AM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
To me, it's not just that "you could do slightly better financially someplace else," it's the fact that the advertisement paints the following picture in total:
posted by en forme de poire at 11:17 AM on November 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
- Work-life balance: "terrible" (direct quote)
- Salary: below market
- On call: yes
- Quality of work: boring unless you are underqualified
- Qualifications necessary: diverse and significant
- Environment: offensive and proud of it
- Broader social mission: positive points for the charity work, n/a otherwise
posted by en forme de poire at 11:17 AM on November 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
I'm definitely not saying PA is unique in this, either. There are a lot of jobs that exploit people by trying to pay them in "cool points" rather than actual money or benefits. That laughable Rogue Brewery ad above is an even worse example: despite all the "edgy" counter-cultural posturing, at the end of the day you're not only going to be in a totally conventional labor-employer relationship, but a particularly exploitative one -- based on the substance of that ad, they almost certainly have even less respect for worker's rights than the sterile stuffed-shirts they're railing on. (The only good thing about that ad is that they overplayed their hand so hard that it's obvious what kind of bullshit they're peddling.)
posted by en forme de poire at 11:28 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 11:28 AM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Ad Hom, I would also say that academia itself is not universally shitty, though there are definitely shitty jobs within it that are totally the equivalent of this posting. Adjuncting is a good example, as is working as a grad student or postdoc in any lab where the expectation is that you will work 9-11 M-F and 9-6 Sat or be fired. But it really, really depends on the exact details of the position and on who you're working for.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:33 AM on November 27, 2013
posted by en forme de poire at 11:33 AM on November 27, 2013
WANTED: PERSON WITH AMAZING SKILLS AND IRRATIONALLY LOW SELF-ESTEEM
We need to hire a skilled and talented self-starter who genuinely cares about the quality of the work they do, but hasn't yet obtained the age/level of self-confidence to know they are a skilled and talented self-starter who genuinely cares about the quality of the work they do. Must assume they are below-average and be willing to be treated as such in all capacities, while actually possessing above-average qualities that everyone around them can recognize and take advantage of. You will be working alongside other people just like you, and will spend your lunch hours complaining to each other that this job and pay sucks but you'll never be able to find anything better so why bother?
We are a company that presents this job opportunity as something you'll be lucky to get at any price, and that does not suggest a salary range because we know you'll lowball yourself as soon as we give you enough rope to hang yourself with.
posted by davejay at 1:48 PM on November 27, 2013 [9 favorites]
We need to hire a skilled and talented self-starter who genuinely cares about the quality of the work they do, but hasn't yet obtained the age/level of self-confidence to know they are a skilled and talented self-starter who genuinely cares about the quality of the work they do. Must assume they are below-average and be willing to be treated as such in all capacities, while actually possessing above-average qualities that everyone around them can recognize and take advantage of. You will be working alongside other people just like you, and will spend your lunch hours complaining to each other that this job and pay sucks but you'll never be able to find anything better so why bother?
We are a company that presents this job opportunity as something you'll be lucky to get at any price, and that does not suggest a salary range because we know you'll lowball yourself as soon as we give you enough rope to hang yourself with.
posted by davejay at 1:48 PM on November 27, 2013 [9 favorites]
In following those links, I discovered that apparently I'm a unicorn. That explains how I ended up here, I guess.
posted by davejay at 2:02 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by davejay at 2:02 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Commentary from the person who is leaving the job. The amount of criticism they took for this seems wildly out of proportion to what they deserved, which was, at most, mockery for a lame job ad.
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:30 PM on November 27, 2013
posted by feloniousmonk at 2:30 PM on November 27, 2013
Here's a post on the PA forums from the guy who used to hold this post about what this job 'really' entails.
And part of the final paragraph of it:
"There is this notion that work/life balance is some kind of sacred goal. I’m sorry, but it’s ludicrous. That’s like saying everyone would be fulfilled by getting married and having 2.5 kids. If you want to work 40 hours and never think about your job after 5pm, great! Find something that does that for you. If you want to work 80 or more hours at something you truly enjoy, in fact you don’t want to stop working ever because you love it so much, shouldn’t that be okay too? Shouldn’t we be so lucky as to have a job that we are so invested in? We are very honest about what working at Penny Arcade requires. No one here has been scammed into working as hard as they do, and the implication that we’re all blind fools with low self esteem for being here is honestly insulting."
Man I sure hope there was some kind of equity in Penny Arcade The Corporation included as part of your pay, dude. I doubt there was. There wasn't when I worked in a similar environment at Spümcø, that's for sure.
posted by egypturnash at 2:43 PM on November 27, 2013
And part of the final paragraph of it:
"There is this notion that work/life balance is some kind of sacred goal. I’m sorry, but it’s ludicrous. That’s like saying everyone would be fulfilled by getting married and having 2.5 kids. If you want to work 40 hours and never think about your job after 5pm, great! Find something that does that for you. If you want to work 80 or more hours at something you truly enjoy, in fact you don’t want to stop working ever because you love it so much, shouldn’t that be okay too? Shouldn’t we be so lucky as to have a job that we are so invested in? We are very honest about what working at Penny Arcade requires. No one here has been scammed into working as hard as they do, and the implication that we’re all blind fools with low self esteem for being here is honestly insulting."
Man I sure hope there was some kind of equity in Penny Arcade The Corporation included as part of your pay, dude. I doubt there was. There wasn't when I worked in a similar environment at Spümcø, that's for sure.
posted by egypturnash at 2:43 PM on November 27, 2013
shouldn’t that be okay too
You know what the basic problem is, Kenneth? What you do for love, is now the requirements for the next guy. And when they put up those requirements and the Internet points and laughs or shrieks or huffs, then you you have an opportunity to see the injustice of turning your passion into his entry-level baseline.
They could hire someone with reasonable expectations and decent pay and let them pour their passion into PA. Then it would really be passion. As it is now, it's his performance matrix.
posted by fatbird at 2:50 PM on November 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
You know what the basic problem is, Kenneth? What you do for love, is now the requirements for the next guy. And when they put up those requirements and the Internet points and laughs or shrieks or huffs, then you you have an opportunity to see the injustice of turning your passion into his entry-level baseline.
They could hire someone with reasonable expectations and decent pay and let them pour their passion into PA. Then it would really be passion. As it is now, it's his performance matrix.
posted by fatbird at 2:50 PM on November 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
> There is this notion that work/life balance is some kind of sacred goal.
I have thrown over work/life balance before - but that was for jobs where I was doing something completely cutting edge, and where I had a chance of making a windfall out of it, because I had a piece of the action.
Example: I wrote the operating system for a pocket computer in the late 80s... it didn't pay that well and the hours were atrocious but it really was cutting edge and I had a small chance of hitting the jackpot - I didn't, but I'm sure that really sweet resumé entry helped me get bigger and better jobs later.
The idea that you should throw over the rest of your life for some job that, professionally at least, is run-of-the-mill - well, it only works if you have no life and no plans to get one.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:25 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have thrown over work/life balance before - but that was for jobs where I was doing something completely cutting edge, and where I had a chance of making a windfall out of it, because I had a piece of the action.
Example: I wrote the operating system for a pocket computer in the late 80s... it didn't pay that well and the hours were atrocious but it really was cutting edge and I had a small chance of hitting the jackpot - I didn't, but I'm sure that really sweet resumé entry helped me get bigger and better jobs later.
The idea that you should throw over the rest of your life for some job that, professionally at least, is run-of-the-mill - well, it only works if you have no life and no plans to get one.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:25 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
You know, all paid labor is exploitation and all ownership is theft. Part of me believes that and the other part of me doesn't, and I have to balance some of my philosophy against my need to exist in a society where the overthrow of capitalism would probably cause a lot more misery than it would alleviate. So I participate in capitalism. I try to do it ethically, usually. I'm guessing a lot of you are in the same boat.
Under capitalism, you leverage all of your assets. If one of them is that you present a desirable brand, and if that might attract labor at below what would otherwise be considered market value, then that's exactly what you do. Are you folks equally pissed at the New York Times if they pay a young journalist less than one of Murdoch's mouthpiece papers does? At Mother Jones if they pay less than Fox News for a similar position? At Greenpeace if they pay their IT kid less than Exxon would? I'm definitely not suggesting that Penny Arcade is saving the earth (they are manufacturing dick jokes, mostly), but I'm saying that some of us put our labor toward the biggest money rewards and others put it toward endeavors that line up with work that they enjoy or even believe in. And you don't have to respect what some other individual's ideals or values or career dreams are, but you have to let that individual hold them and explore them.
Particularly in tech, where labor is a currently a seller's market, it seems like offering an opt-in to an underpaid position in what, to some, is an exceedingly desirable environment, and presenting that trade-off up front, should pass the ethics sniff test.
If you think that there should be no such thing as underpaid labor, then I can get behind that position, but starting the protest with a tech worker at an entertainment company instead of with physical laborers and educators seems bizarre. And maybe you'll round the corner on needing to overthrow capitalism when you really start to tackle the problem anyway.
A few folks upthread mentioned that it is a solid tactic to present the job as being too difficult and offering uncompetitive pay, when you have a legitimate concern that your job will otherwise attract many more applicants than you can hope to process. I get the strong sense from this thread that the cottage industry of PA Hatin' is more responsible for this controversy than the audacity of the actual job posting.
posted by damehex at 3:51 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Under capitalism, you leverage all of your assets. If one of them is that you present a desirable brand, and if that might attract labor at below what would otherwise be considered market value, then that's exactly what you do. Are you folks equally pissed at the New York Times if they pay a young journalist less than one of Murdoch's mouthpiece papers does? At Mother Jones if they pay less than Fox News for a similar position? At Greenpeace if they pay their IT kid less than Exxon would? I'm definitely not suggesting that Penny Arcade is saving the earth (they are manufacturing dick jokes, mostly), but I'm saying that some of us put our labor toward the biggest money rewards and others put it toward endeavors that line up with work that they enjoy or even believe in. And you don't have to respect what some other individual's ideals or values or career dreams are, but you have to let that individual hold them and explore them.
Particularly in tech, where labor is a currently a seller's market, it seems like offering an opt-in to an underpaid position in what, to some, is an exceedingly desirable environment, and presenting that trade-off up front, should pass the ethics sniff test.
If you think that there should be no such thing as underpaid labor, then I can get behind that position, but starting the protest with a tech worker at an entertainment company instead of with physical laborers and educators seems bizarre. And maybe you'll round the corner on needing to overthrow capitalism when you really start to tackle the problem anyway.
A few folks upthread mentioned that it is a solid tactic to present the job as being too difficult and offering uncompetitive pay, when you have a legitimate concern that your job will otherwise attract many more applicants than you can hope to process. I get the strong sense from this thread that the cottage industry of PA Hatin' is more responsible for this controversy than the audacity of the actual job posting.
posted by damehex at 3:51 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Okay people, think about it, anything over 38 hours a week you need to give to your passion. You be in the drivers seat. There's no reason to give yourself away.
Working 80 hours a week on something for someone else is not an intelligent thing to do. You'd be better off punching out and spending that time on your own side project that you are in complete control over.
Don't give it away, people. This knowledge is not cheap nor free, you earned it through busting your ass, respect yourselves. Charge a premium. IT work sucks, doing it for free? WTF IDK.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:04 PM on November 27, 2013
Working 80 hours a week on something for someone else is not an intelligent thing to do. You'd be better off punching out and spending that time on your own side project that you are in complete control over.
Don't give it away, people. This knowledge is not cheap nor free, you earned it through busting your ass, respect yourselves. Charge a premium. IT work sucks, doing it for free? WTF IDK.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:04 PM on November 27, 2013
fatbird: "You know what the basic problem is, Kenneth? What you do for love, is now the requirements for the next guy."
Yes. The flip-side of his statement: If it's okay for some people to like working 80 hours a week, then it also has to be okay for people to want to work only 40 hours a week. A market like this forces people to work more hours for less pay, so when one person is willing to work 80 hours for a 40-hour salary, they aren't just showing their devotion; they're pushing out people who aren't willing to burn their lives up in service to capitalism. Well, they aren't doing it themselves; they're participating in a system that has that net effect. And the benefit of large, faceless entities is, of course, that blame for horrible outcomes can be placed precisely nowhere.
(Also, I wish we could stop talking about "market value". especially in the sense that it's somehow the fair rate of pay. In a market like this, where bosses accumulate ever-more advantages and we workers are kept scrabbling over each other like crabs, "market value" and "fair pay" are two very, very different things. Equating them does us workers a big disservice.)
posted by jiawen at 5:36 PM on November 27, 2013 [13 favorites]
Yes. The flip-side of his statement: If it's okay for some people to like working 80 hours a week, then it also has to be okay for people to want to work only 40 hours a week. A market like this forces people to work more hours for less pay, so when one person is willing to work 80 hours for a 40-hour salary, they aren't just showing their devotion; they're pushing out people who aren't willing to burn their lives up in service to capitalism. Well, they aren't doing it themselves; they're participating in a system that has that net effect. And the benefit of large, faceless entities is, of course, that blame for horrible outcomes can be placed precisely nowhere.
(Also, I wish we could stop talking about "market value". especially in the sense that it's somehow the fair rate of pay. In a market like this, where bosses accumulate ever-more advantages and we workers are kept scrabbling over each other like crabs, "market value" and "fair pay" are two very, very different things. Equating them does us workers a big disservice.)
posted by jiawen at 5:36 PM on November 27, 2013 [13 favorites]
If you want to work 80 or more hours at something you truly enjoy, in fact you don’t want to stop working ever because you love it so much, shouldn’t that be okay too?
If you love managing IT to the exclusion of all else, to the point where you don't even want to do anything else, you have a really empty life. And I'm going to guess that you got there by never doing anything but working, so you never built a life to have.
Honestly, this person needs nothing else in life so much as a normal job that won't let him stick around late, so he's forced to grow as anything other than a worker.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:41 PM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you love managing IT to the exclusion of all else, to the point where you don't even want to do anything else, you have a really empty life. And I'm going to guess that you got there by never doing anything but working, so you never built a life to have.
Honestly, this person needs nothing else in life so much as a normal job that won't let him stick around late, so he's forced to grow as anything other than a worker.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:41 PM on November 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Saying that you really want to work 80 hour weeks and would find it weird not to do so, because you have so much passion for your work that you don't ever want to do anything else, is fucking Stockholm Syndrome.
posted by Sara C. at 6:16 PM on November 27, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 6:16 PM on November 27, 2013 [11 favorites]
> "If you want to work 80 or more hours at something you truly enjoy, in fact you don’t want to stop working ever because you love it so much, shouldn’t that be okay too?"
No, not really. Or at least, not in most circumstances.
I mean, I might "want to" work in a place filled with delicious inhalable asbestos fibers. Maybe I just love them so much! I still don't think workplaces should be able to fill their offices with asbestos fluff to cater to those workers who happen to "want" that. It isn't really fair to the ones who don't, if you see my point.
Now, for working long hours, it's true I can see some circumstances where it might be allowable. On a short term basis to meet a nonarbitrary deadline, for example, as long as the number of times a year a business could do this was strictly limited and it automatically came with a significantly higher pay rate. Or if there were a chronically understaffed, critical emergency service, again with a huge jump in pay to compensate.
Or, of course, you could work for yourself, either entirely, or in addition to employment that only requires normal hours. Then you can work as many hours and consume as much asbestos as your heart desires.
Otherwise? No, I actually don't think that should be OK. If the strange desires of fans of long work hours are catered to, it is harmful for the rest of us.
posted by kyrademon at 6:38 PM on November 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
No, not really. Or at least, not in most circumstances.
I mean, I might "want to" work in a place filled with delicious inhalable asbestos fibers. Maybe I just love them so much! I still don't think workplaces should be able to fill their offices with asbestos fluff to cater to those workers who happen to "want" that. It isn't really fair to the ones who don't, if you see my point.
Now, for working long hours, it's true I can see some circumstances where it might be allowable. On a short term basis to meet a nonarbitrary deadline, for example, as long as the number of times a year a business could do this was strictly limited and it automatically came with a significantly higher pay rate. Or if there were a chronically understaffed, critical emergency service, again with a huge jump in pay to compensate.
Or, of course, you could work for yourself, either entirely, or in addition to employment that only requires normal hours. Then you can work as many hours and consume as much asbestos as your heart desires.
Otherwise? No, I actually don't think that should be OK. If the strange desires of fans of long work hours are catered to, it is harmful for the rest of us.
posted by kyrademon at 6:38 PM on November 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
Also, just to be clear, because I feel like it's easy to throw around a number like 80 hours a week without really thinking clearly about what it means.
80 hours a week is 5 16 hour days. Or 6 13 hour days. Or working 11 hour days day in, day out, never getting a day off.
I work in a field where people work pretty fucking hard, and 40 hour work weeks are unheard of. The most I've ever worked is somewhere in the neighborhood of 72-80 hours a week, and that was a very temporary situation, deeply unhealthy, and definitely not a good thing. It was also on a feature film, and those kinds of hours were only for a couple of months.
I feel like 50 hours a week is pretty average for me, and it's kind of hard to really have a life with those hours. If I could shave an hour or two off my work day, I would definitely do it, despite the fact that I love what I do. Fifty hours a week is WORLDS better than the jobs I've had where I've been in the office 60+ hours a week and sometimes had to work Saturdays.
The idea that working 80 hours a week is just something you do if you really like your job is bullshit to me, sorry.
At about 65 hours a week you get to a point where it's physically difficult to accomplish important life tasks like grocery shopping, doing laundry, banking/paying bills, grooming yourself, etc. The time I worked ~80 hour weeks for a couple months, there would be nights where I had to choose whether I wanted to shower or sleep, I didn't have time for both. When I was working a long haul 60+ hour week gig, I just entirely stopped using the kitchen in my apartment as anything more than a beer storage system. You learn to outsource as much of your life as you can to someone else, even if it means paying absurd sums of money. I can't even imagine dating or having a family working those kinds of hours. You can barely care for yourself working more than about 60 hours a week.
posted by Sara C. at 6:39 PM on November 27, 2013 [11 favorites]
80 hours a week is 5 16 hour days. Or 6 13 hour days. Or working 11 hour days day in, day out, never getting a day off.
I work in a field where people work pretty fucking hard, and 40 hour work weeks are unheard of. The most I've ever worked is somewhere in the neighborhood of 72-80 hours a week, and that was a very temporary situation, deeply unhealthy, and definitely not a good thing. It was also on a feature film, and those kinds of hours were only for a couple of months.
I feel like 50 hours a week is pretty average for me, and it's kind of hard to really have a life with those hours. If I could shave an hour or two off my work day, I would definitely do it, despite the fact that I love what I do. Fifty hours a week is WORLDS better than the jobs I've had where I've been in the office 60+ hours a week and sometimes had to work Saturdays.
The idea that working 80 hours a week is just something you do if you really like your job is bullshit to me, sorry.
At about 65 hours a week you get to a point where it's physically difficult to accomplish important life tasks like grocery shopping, doing laundry, banking/paying bills, grooming yourself, etc. The time I worked ~80 hour weeks for a couple months, there would be nights where I had to choose whether I wanted to shower or sleep, I didn't have time for both. When I was working a long haul 60+ hour week gig, I just entirely stopped using the kitchen in my apartment as anything more than a beer storage system. You learn to outsource as much of your life as you can to someone else, even if it means paying absurd sums of money. I can't even imagine dating or having a family working those kinds of hours. You can barely care for yourself working more than about 60 hours a week.
posted by Sara C. at 6:39 PM on November 27, 2013 [11 favorites]
Seriously though 80 hours a week is nonsense.
Nobody can work 80 hours a week, consistently, as their baseline expectation, and claim that they prefer it that way with a straight face.
Anyone who would try to do so has got to be pretty deeply scarred by what is obviously a toxic workplace dynamic.
I say this as someone who has actually worked 80 hours a week. It doesn't matter how much you love your job. It is not fun. At all. 80 hours a week is getting to the point where you start considering just sleeping under your desk so you don't have to commute. Not bathing starts to seem like a totally rational coping mechanism, because the half hour you could shave off your day is really key.
Now, a 50-60 hour week, if you really like what you do, sure. If this guy is like, "sure, I don't work 40 hour weeks, I don't always get to leave at 5:02, if my phone rings on a Saturday afternoon when I really wanted to go to a movie, I deal with it," I would buy that he is a reliable judge of his own happiness.
But 80 hours? Having actually worked that kind of a schedule, that really strains credulity.
posted by Sara C. at 6:48 PM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Nobody can work 80 hours a week, consistently, as their baseline expectation, and claim that they prefer it that way with a straight face.
Anyone who would try to do so has got to be pretty deeply scarred by what is obviously a toxic workplace dynamic.
I say this as someone who has actually worked 80 hours a week. It doesn't matter how much you love your job. It is not fun. At all. 80 hours a week is getting to the point where you start considering just sleeping under your desk so you don't have to commute. Not bathing starts to seem like a totally rational coping mechanism, because the half hour you could shave off your day is really key.
Now, a 50-60 hour week, if you really like what you do, sure. If this guy is like, "sure, I don't work 40 hour weeks, I don't always get to leave at 5:02, if my phone rings on a Saturday afternoon when I really wanted to go to a movie, I deal with it," I would buy that he is a reliable judge of his own happiness.
But 80 hours? Having actually worked that kind of a schedule, that really strains credulity.
posted by Sara C. at 6:48 PM on November 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
An 80 hour PA week is, TBH, probably pretty far short of 80 hours of solid work - diminishing returns kick in pretty quickly and it seems like its the kind of office where you are expected to fuck around for the amusement of the bosses as much as work. But it's still 80 hours of your time you're expected to let them suck up, and if the shit hits the fan once that expectation is established they WILL burn you up.
Happy family fun job is a trap.
posted by Artw at 7:05 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Happy family fun job is a trap.
posted by Artw at 7:05 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
As wrong as it is to question someone who says they enjoyed their job and that it had benefits we can't see, you'll notice that dude is looking for something pretty different from what he's doing now. I read through all 18 pages of comments on the Penny Arcade forums, and no one over there has mentioned yet that the current IT guy is planning to shift careers from something that involves mostly working with code, being on call 24/7/365, and having 50-80 hour work weeks to something that involves mostly working with people, not ever being on call, and leaving the work place after 7 hours.*
It sounds like his current job and teaching are similar in that there's a similar degree of ownership - what you do with your kids in your classroom is still ultimately up to, despite the State's best efforts to change that - so I have no problem believing the PA tech dude will be a great teacher, since he lists having ownership as a perk, where other people would see it as a stressor. But let's be real, teaching ain't an 80 hours a week job if you don't want it to be. That's the difference, right? Working that hard because you want to and not because your company doesn't feel like hiring a second person to help out as the job roles associated with the position have expanded. And having time off!
*Although teachers obviously do spend a lot time outside of work on lesson planning, grading, tutoring and mentoring, parent/teacher conferencing, administrative tasks, professional development, and on and on.
posted by subdee at 7:07 PM on November 27, 2013
It sounds like his current job and teaching are similar in that there's a similar degree of ownership - what you do with your kids in your classroom is still ultimately up to, despite the State's best efforts to change that - so I have no problem believing the PA tech dude will be a great teacher, since he lists having ownership as a perk, where other people would see it as a stressor. But let's be real, teaching ain't an 80 hours a week job if you don't want it to be. That's the difference, right? Working that hard because you want to and not because your company doesn't feel like hiring a second person to help out as the job roles associated with the position have expanded. And having time off!
*Although teachers obviously do spend a lot time outside of work on lesson planning, grading, tutoring and mentoring, parent/teacher conferencing, administrative tasks, professional development, and on and on.
posted by subdee at 7:07 PM on November 27, 2013
What I'm saying is, when I made a career change that drastic, it was because there was something about my field (physics) that was driving me batty (gender imbalance). And I responded by going into a field that was the complete opposite in that one area (publishing). Teaching is a job you can spend all your time on, but it's also a job where no one will bother you after work.
posted by subdee at 7:16 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 7:16 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
"I work in a field where people work pretty fucking hard, and 40 hour work weeks are unheard of. The most I've ever worked is somewhere in the neighborhood of 72-80 hours a week, and that was a very temporary situation, deeply unhealthy, and definitely not a good thing. It was also on a feature film, and those kinds of hours were only for a couple of months. "
The usual way that I've gotten to 80 hours, and the way several roommates have, is just piling on the part time jobs. Like, 30 hours at one pizza joint, 30 hours at another, then 20 hours doing landscaping or watchman jobs (or for my old roomie, working at a dojo).
It sucks, it's unsustainable. It basically means there's no real hope for getting out of it without a massive disruption, no way to go to school or anything. Hell, even working a full time job and going to school full time can be pretty damn hard.
It's part of what makes the myth of hard work both pernicious and vicious — most people working the hardest are doing it for the lowest wages, doing several part-time jobs for low hourly pay.
posted by klangklangston at 7:57 PM on November 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
The usual way that I've gotten to 80 hours, and the way several roommates have, is just piling on the part time jobs. Like, 30 hours at one pizza joint, 30 hours at another, then 20 hours doing landscaping or watchman jobs (or for my old roomie, working at a dojo).
It sucks, it's unsustainable. It basically means there's no real hope for getting out of it without a massive disruption, no way to go to school or anything. Hell, even working a full time job and going to school full time can be pretty damn hard.
It's part of what makes the myth of hard work both pernicious and vicious — most people working the hardest are doing it for the lowest wages, doing several part-time jobs for low hourly pay.
posted by klangklangston at 7:57 PM on November 27, 2013 [7 favorites]
To add to the chorus: I've been in tech jobs that expected 80+ hour work weeks for 3-6 months at a time (yay games industry in the early 00's!) It totally broke everyone involved, with the possible exception of the very few for whom the project was their baby. After that followed a month or so of 100 hours a week, that's right 14 hour days 7 days a week, I totally snapped. It destroyed my relationships, it destroyed my health, it's just unhealthy. And I was young then.
Gabe and Tycho and whathisname? I suspect they can put 80 hours/week into their love and sustain it, but that's because they get to hire people to do the shit they don't want to do, and just do the stuff that really matters to them. But to be a peon with long hours (and if you are getting lowballed on pay, you are a peon and bosses don't respect you) AND be on call 24/7, with no rotation? The only way you can sustain that is by living for your job, and even that you are going to burn out, I'm amazed the guy lasted years.
Plus at least when I was doing 80+ hour work weeks I was doing interesting work. From what this guy wrote his responsibilities were, there was nothing impressive about what he was doing. Yeah it's work that takes skill and knowledge, but it's not ground breaking in any way, and there's nothing he described that sounded like it was anything but routine sysadmin work, just too much of it for one person and a boss that's too cheap to hire the number people needed to do a good job. But oh, you get to work for people who are B level internet famous? Yay?
posted by aspo at 9:09 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Gabe and Tycho and whathisname? I suspect they can put 80 hours/week into their love and sustain it, but that's because they get to hire people to do the shit they don't want to do, and just do the stuff that really matters to them. But to be a peon with long hours (and if you are getting lowballed on pay, you are a peon and bosses don't respect you) AND be on call 24/7, with no rotation? The only way you can sustain that is by living for your job, and even that you are going to burn out, I'm amazed the guy lasted years.
Plus at least when I was doing 80+ hour work weeks I was doing interesting work. From what this guy wrote his responsibilities were, there was nothing impressive about what he was doing. Yeah it's work that takes skill and knowledge, but it's not ground breaking in any way, and there's nothing he described that sounded like it was anything but routine sysadmin work, just too much of it for one person and a boss that's too cheap to hire the number people needed to do a good job. But oh, you get to work for people who are B level internet famous? Yay?
posted by aspo at 9:09 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
I can however, imagine a job that sort of expects some dysfunctional "this job is your only social life, you will work here crazy hours because you won't do anything else" and that's just creepy. Once again, if you are starting a business with a friend or something, that's one thing, but if you are an employee without significant stake and power in a company that's just not healthy. Either as a person who is willing to take that role or as the employer who expects you to perform that role. There's some serious crazy power dynamics involved there.
posted by aspo at 9:18 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by aspo at 9:18 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
fucking Stockholm Syndrome.
Wow, like I didn't feel bad enough already. I don't need to be pathologized any more than I already am.
Luckily I don't give a fuck what people think of me.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:43 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wow, like I didn't feel bad enough already. I don't need to be pathologized any more than I already am.
Luckily I don't give a fuck what people think of me.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:43 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've been there, I've gotten out, I've gotten over it. Looking back Stockholm Syndrome seems perfectly apt.
posted by Artw at 10:52 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:52 PM on November 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, like mefites going to say no, I need work/life balance to 150k. You guys crack me up.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:08 PM on November 27, 2013
posted by Ad hominem at 11:08 PM on November 27, 2013
This whole thing is disgusting. I'm out.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:10 PM on November 27, 2013
posted by Ad hominem at 11:10 PM on November 27, 2013
XQUZYPHYR: Wow, this instant pivot toward shitting on a complete stranger for deigning to say he enjoyed his job isn't totally fucked up at all.
A normal person who enjoys their job is not going to be happy working 80 hour weeks. You'd only be happy doing that if you enjoyed your job and nothing else whatsoever.
But I don't think he really enjoys his job. I think he's been forced to live that way just to have a job, and he's done it so long he's convinced himself he should want to. Which is why asking someone to work that much should be flat out illegal.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:34 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
A normal person who enjoys their job is not going to be happy working 80 hour weeks. You'd only be happy doing that if you enjoyed your job and nothing else whatsoever.
But I don't think he really enjoys his job. I think he's been forced to live that way just to have a job, and he's done it so long he's convinced himself he should want to. Which is why asking someone to work that much should be flat out illegal.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:34 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ad hominem: Yeah, like mefites going to say no, I need work/life balance to 150k. You guys crack me up.
If you don't have time for anything but your job, what's the point to the money? Especially when you probably could get work/life balance and still make at least half of that, which is still more than enough to live on while setting up retirement and otherwise being responsible.
I mean, I can see doing it for a few months or something so you can just not work the rest of the year (to travel, for instance) or potentially doing it for a couple of years to retire early, but if you plan to spend most of your career working that way you are basically throwing away the best part of your life.
Also, in all sincerity, I don't see how anyone stands working like that. I'm almost certain I would lash out from misery and get myself fired within the first month or so.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:40 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you don't have time for anything but your job, what's the point to the money? Especially when you probably could get work/life balance and still make at least half of that, which is still more than enough to live on while setting up retirement and otherwise being responsible.
I mean, I can see doing it for a few months or something so you can just not work the rest of the year (to travel, for instance) or potentially doing it for a couple of years to retire early, but if you plan to spend most of your career working that way you are basically throwing away the best part of your life.
Also, in all sincerity, I don't see how anyone stands working like that. I'm almost certain I would lash out from misery and get myself fired within the first month or so.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:40 PM on November 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
A normal person who enjoys their job is not going to be happy working 80 hour weeks. You'd only be happy doing that if you enjoyed your job and nothing else whatsoever... Also, in all sincerity, I don't see how anyone stands working like that. I'm almost certain I would lash out from misery and get myself fired within the first month or so.
You are not everyone. Everyone else is not you. Different people are different.
The person who last had the job has told you what he thought of it. Insisting that a person relating their feelings about their situation must be lying or insane is profoundly ugly.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 12:26 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
You are not everyone. Everyone else is not you. Different people are different.
The person who last had the job has told you what he thought of it. Insisting that a person relating their feelings about their situation must be lying or insane is profoundly ugly.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 12:26 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that nobody actually works 80 hours a week in a modern, white-collar job. Experience (in the tech industry, at least) tells me that a person claiming 80 hours of work per week is actually "working" 50-65 hours. 40 hours of that is "face time" hours in the office during the day, monday through friday, mostly spent socializing and working casually on boring, simple tasks without deadlines. The 10 to 25 hours remaining is done late at night or over the weekend, alone at the office or at home, on tasks that require unbroken focus or are time-sensitive. 80 hours only rears its ugly head in weeks where an actual emergency comes up.
Again in my experience only, the people who work this way could simply work diligently and continuously for 40 hours a week (50-65 on emergency weeks) and get the same amount of work done, but they also tend to be people without much of a social life outside work, so for them a 40 hour workday would amount to giving up their social life. From that perspective, then, working in the fashion I describe is a totally rational decision. Unfortunately, it is a decision that leaves people absolutely devastated when they get laid off or fired, because their job and their social life are so tightly intertwined that they lose everything at once. They're also less likely to seek out a new position elsewhere, for the same reason. Still, on a day to day basis, it's not a bad way to work.
I will say this: in the right environment, under a sufficient amount of duress, it is easy to give up and simply go with it, that your day will start at a ridiculous hour, you'll work very very hard all day and night, then you'll go home and crash, only to start it the next day. No social life in or out of work, effectively, and no free time. I've done it, and it can be (in the short term) kind of a relief, probably similar to joining the army and giving up your life to it. I just haven't seen anyone (including myself) survive in that scenario without giving up on the career once they realized what the long-term impact was...and given that the previous holder of this job is heading off for a totally different career, I'd say this might be another situation of the same type.
Oh, and of course, some people do claim to work 80 hours a week because it enables them to turn down additional work easily -- especially at IT jobs where the work is poorly understood by management -- but I'm not going to assume that's what happened here.
posted by davejay at 12:27 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Again in my experience only, the people who work this way could simply work diligently and continuously for 40 hours a week (50-65 on emergency weeks) and get the same amount of work done, but they also tend to be people without much of a social life outside work, so for them a 40 hour workday would amount to giving up their social life. From that perspective, then, working in the fashion I describe is a totally rational decision. Unfortunately, it is a decision that leaves people absolutely devastated when they get laid off or fired, because their job and their social life are so tightly intertwined that they lose everything at once. They're also less likely to seek out a new position elsewhere, for the same reason. Still, on a day to day basis, it's not a bad way to work.
I will say this: in the right environment, under a sufficient amount of duress, it is easy to give up and simply go with it, that your day will start at a ridiculous hour, you'll work very very hard all day and night, then you'll go home and crash, only to start it the next day. No social life in or out of work, effectively, and no free time. I've done it, and it can be (in the short term) kind of a relief, probably similar to joining the army and giving up your life to it. I just haven't seen anyone (including myself) survive in that scenario without giving up on the career once they realized what the long-term impact was...and given that the previous holder of this job is heading off for a totally different career, I'd say this might be another situation of the same type.
Oh, and of course, some people do claim to work 80 hours a week because it enables them to turn down additional work easily -- especially at IT jobs where the work is poorly understood by management -- but I'm not going to assume that's what happened here.
posted by davejay at 12:27 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Ad hominem: Yeah, like mefites going to say no, I need work/life balance to 150k. You guys crack me up.
Depends on the industry, I suppose. I walked away from the highest-paying job I'd ever had in order to get work/life balance (with babies on the way, I didn't want to travel overseas for weeks at a time any more.) I made the decision to do so even if a pay cut was involved, and you can imagine my surprise when I ended up making more at the new gig from day one, despite working fewer hours and having substantially less stress. Still at that job, in fact.
posted by davejay at 12:30 AM on November 28, 2013
Depends on the industry, I suppose. I walked away from the highest-paying job I'd ever had in order to get work/life balance (with babies on the way, I didn't want to travel overseas for weeks at a time any more.) I made the decision to do so even if a pay cut was involved, and you can imagine my surprise when I ended up making more at the new gig from day one, despite working fewer hours and having substantially less stress. Still at that job, in fact.
posted by davejay at 12:30 AM on November 28, 2013
nobody really knows how much it actually pays ...
they also give (match?) 2% 401k contribution per year (my last job matched half of my contributions up to 5/2.5%).
it's an annoying job posting, but it seems like there's a lot of projection going on. again, no one really knows how much it pays.
i do approve of the growing class dissent however.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:45 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
they also give (match?) 2% 401k contribution per year (my last job matched half of my contributions up to 5/2.5%).
it's an annoying job posting, but it seems like there's a lot of projection going on. again, no one really knows how much it pays.
i do approve of the growing class dissent however.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:45 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
The person who last had the job has told you what he thought of it. Insisting that a person relating their feelings about their situation must be lying or insane is profoundly ugly.
You mean you've never been diplomatic about a previous workplace when you've had to navigate a job transition? He's posting on a public forum with the company logo in the upper left hand corner. There's no way he's gonna air out his laundry.
posted by FJT at 1:33 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
You mean you've never been diplomatic about a previous workplace when you've had to navigate a job transition? He's posting on a public forum with the company logo in the upper left hand corner. There's no way he's gonna air out his laundry.
posted by FJT at 1:33 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
griphus: “Since it's just me and my business partner, I'm on call 100% for both her and our clients. I bought a netbook so I could log in via cellular network from where I used to go camping, although the signal was so poor it didn't really work the way I wished it would. I have the phone I have because it has a keyboard and will run an SSH client. Honestly, once you get everything set up, it's not like there's much to do. Then again I'm the kind of guy who will spend an hour and a half writing a tool to make a two hour job take half an hour.‘As far as on-call is concerned, you are the only one on call. Prepare to have a laptop and some way of connecting to the internet with you at all times. Want to go on a hike somewhere there's no reception? Sorry, you can't. It's one of the hard realities of this job, and you should be aware of it going in.’So how common is that scenario in this field?”
Sara C.: “You can barely care for yourself working more than about 60 hours a week.”In my experience five 12 hour days — at least in IT — means wake, bathe, work and eat lunch at your desk, have dinner in one of the two restaurants that are still open by the time you get off, go home, fall asleep and do it again the next day. Extra points for commuting to your work city so you get to fly in on Monday and out on Friday. On the one hand, it makes life simple. On the other hand, you should expect to gain 50 pounds from always eating at the kind of place that's open late.
During maximum-effort time right around go-live, you should expect to put in 14 or 16 hour days and eat dinner at your desk too.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:56 AM on November 28, 2013
I feel like penny arcade has made so many enemies that people jump on them for anything at this point. This thing is a tempest in a teapot and pretty standard for start-ups (though I guess by now they should be thinking of getting out of the start-up mentality).
posted by empath at 3:26 AM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by empath at 3:26 AM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
From watching the vidz there's no way Gabe and Tycho work 80hrs... I doubt they even break 40, probably half that if you take off time playing video games and general goofing off. However Khoo says (and I believe him) he's a complete, to the point of pathology, workaholic who used to work utterly insane hours (and now only works slightly less insane hours) and I wonder if that's set expectations in others (who are not the 'creatives'/'talent')
Because if you're not the owner of the company and you think you enjoy your regular 80hrs a week you really need to read up on False Consciousness
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:34 AM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
Because if you're not the owner of the company and you think you enjoy your regular 80hrs a week you really need to read up on False Consciousness
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:34 AM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you people really want to play armchair psychoanalyst, I would highly recommend taking a deep introspective examination about why on earth a person appearing to like their job makes you so fucking angry to the point of refusing to even believe them saying so. Enjoy your holiday.Of course my only day off today is the day that I actually wake up early, but enh!
Personally I believe that that guy enjoyed his job - that's kind of what my first comment was about. Video games industry companies do this, where young people are so happy to be working in the industry, for [company], that they'll spend their 20s/30s living in the office for relative peanuts. That's what I dislike about this posting: the PA guys have cachet because they're PA, and I think they're exploiting young workers by using that cachet to pay them a fraction of what they're worth and using the savings to further enrich themselves. As I said in my first comment, this certainly isn't unique to them - or to the industry - this is a thing that owners do. It's still totally shitty.
posted by kavasa at 5:02 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you people really want to play armchair psychoanalyst
You know, any sentence that begins with "If you people" and ends with a stated departure, means that you're not engaging constructively. And you're the one throughout the topic that's been telling other people that they should feel a certain way about this topic and pointing out the how they're angry or bitter or jealous.
I was thinking earlier about the word "workaholic". It can take on shades of being addicted to work or being an extremely diligent worker. Some wear it as a badge of pride, while others who neglect family and friends are branded with it. I think this whole thread illustrates the two sides very well. That's my armchair psychology for the day.
posted by FJT at 10:16 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
You know, any sentence that begins with "If you people" and ends with a stated departure, means that you're not engaging constructively. And you're the one throughout the topic that's been telling other people that they should feel a certain way about this topic and pointing out the how they're angry or bitter or jealous.
I was thinking earlier about the word "workaholic". It can take on shades of being addicted to work or being an extremely diligent worker. Some wear it as a badge of pride, while others who neglect family and friends are branded with it. I think this whole thread illustrates the two sides very well. That's my armchair psychology for the day.
posted by FJT at 10:16 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
why on earth a person appearing to like their job makes you so fucking angry to the point of refusing to even believe them saying so.
I will answer with the old labor union slogan:
Eight hours for work, eight hours for rest, and eight hours for what we will.
"What we will" not being a euphemism for "another eight hours of work because we really like our jobs".
posted by Sara C. at 11:04 AM on November 28, 2013 [6 favorites]
I will answer with the old labor union slogan:
Eight hours for work, eight hours for rest, and eight hours for what we will.
"What we will" not being a euphemism for "another eight hours of work because we really like our jobs".
posted by Sara C. at 11:04 AM on November 28, 2013 [6 favorites]
Then that's not really what you will, is it?
posted by empath at 11:38 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 11:38 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
The problem isn't that this one particular guy really fucking LOVES his job so much that he never wants to go home or eat or shower or get a full night's sleep or ANYTHING, just work forever and nothing else.
The problem is when employers assume that this is a natural thing to expect of employees. Then we lose the "what we will" time, collectively.
I work in a field I really love. After a long day of being a cog in the wheels of a TV show, I generally come home from work and... watch TV. Or work on one of the several scripts I'm writing. Or do some production work for the web series I make. I have a few weeks off later this winter, and I'm going to use that time to basically do exactly what I do at my normal job -- shoot several episodes of my web series. Yesterday my boss closed the office early, and then we went and had a few drinks and talked shop.
So trust me when I say that I really get the idea that you could love what you do so much that you'd completely immerse yourself in it.
But there have to be boundaries. Despite the fact that I do TV type stuff in my off time after a long day at my job making a TV show, I'm not on the clock. It's still my time. I own the projects I work on. They're done for my own fulfillment, not the ABC/Disney bottom line.
That's what we lose when we accept the idea that it's OK to work 15 hour days, if you are "passionate" about the job. We lose the "what we will" part. Because "No really I just love working all the time with no time for myself" slides very quickly into "I'm required to work all the time with no time for myself."
posted by Sara C. at 11:56 AM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
The problem is when employers assume that this is a natural thing to expect of employees. Then we lose the "what we will" time, collectively.
I work in a field I really love. After a long day of being a cog in the wheels of a TV show, I generally come home from work and... watch TV. Or work on one of the several scripts I'm writing. Or do some production work for the web series I make. I have a few weeks off later this winter, and I'm going to use that time to basically do exactly what I do at my normal job -- shoot several episodes of my web series. Yesterday my boss closed the office early, and then we went and had a few drinks and talked shop.
So trust me when I say that I really get the idea that you could love what you do so much that you'd completely immerse yourself in it.
But there have to be boundaries. Despite the fact that I do TV type stuff in my off time after a long day at my job making a TV show, I'm not on the clock. It's still my time. I own the projects I work on. They're done for my own fulfillment, not the ABC/Disney bottom line.
That's what we lose when we accept the idea that it's OK to work 15 hour days, if you are "passionate" about the job. We lose the "what we will" part. Because "No really I just love working all the time with no time for myself" slides very quickly into "I'm required to work all the time with no time for myself."
posted by Sara C. at 11:56 AM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
> "Then that's not really what you will, is it?"
Sure it is. They should simply have to do it on their own time rather than as an employee. Otherwise they louse things up economically.
Legally, we don't let employees get paid below minimum wage even if they love the job so much they'd want to anyway. We don't allow businesses to employ child labor except in rare cases with strictly controlled hours and conditions even if the children want to do so. Among other things, this prevents employers from working a five-year-old 16 hours a day on the stamp machine for ten cents an hour. "Tell the man it's because you LOVE working here, Timmy."
And if the child really does love working a stamp machine that much, they can work one at home. They can even set up their own stamp machine stand or whatever and try to make some money at it, I guess. But business owners don't get to use that as an excuse to use child labor, even if it's that one child who happens to love it. Because you can't allow it for one person without making it a de facto requirement for everyone else.
This is the exact same principle. I don't see why this isn't obvious.
posted by kyrademon at 12:03 PM on November 28, 2013 [10 favorites]
Sure it is. They should simply have to do it on their own time rather than as an employee. Otherwise they louse things up economically.
Legally, we don't let employees get paid below minimum wage even if they love the job so much they'd want to anyway. We don't allow businesses to employ child labor except in rare cases with strictly controlled hours and conditions even if the children want to do so. Among other things, this prevents employers from working a five-year-old 16 hours a day on the stamp machine for ten cents an hour. "Tell the man it's because you LOVE working here, Timmy."
And if the child really does love working a stamp machine that much, they can work one at home. They can even set up their own stamp machine stand or whatever and try to make some money at it, I guess. But business owners don't get to use that as an excuse to use child labor, even if it's that one child who happens to love it. Because you can't allow it for one person without making it a de facto requirement for everyone else.
This is the exact same principle. I don't see why this isn't obvious.
posted by kyrademon at 12:03 PM on November 28, 2013 [10 favorites]
Focusing on hours alone also elides other issues. Saying you worked 60 hours last week might seem like a pretty normal amount. But IME, if you work 60 hours a week by doing two 22-hour shifts and two normal 8 hour days, that is way worse than doing 60 hours but getting up at the same time every day and going to bed at the same time every day. (My experience doing this comes from doing timecourses.) This isn't just a personal preference, either - the circadian disruption from shift/on-call work is known to have serious health consequences long-term, not to mention the increased potential for getting in an accident on the way to or from work.
posted by en forme de poire at 1:06 PM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 1:06 PM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you're not getting paid time and a half for hours worked over 40, you're being taken advantage of.
posted by mikelieman at 6:33 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 6:33 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
I feel like penny arcade has made so many enemies that people jump on them for anything at this point.
Yes.
This thing is a tempest in a teapot and pretty standard for start-ups
Yes to the later, certainly.
(though I guess by now they should be thinking of getting out of the start-up mentality).
Everybody should.
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on November 29, 2013
Yes.
This thing is a tempest in a teapot and pretty standard for start-ups
Yes to the later, certainly.
(though I guess by now they should be thinking of getting out of the start-up mentality).
Everybody should.
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on November 29, 2013
Penny Arcade and the culture of work
posted by homunculus at 1:45 PM on November 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 1:45 PM on November 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
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