It’s with sadness and hope that I write this open letter to you...
November 28, 2013 9:03 AM Subscribe
Dear Spike Lee: Juan Luis Garcia has a bone to pick with the agency who (apparently) boosted his designs for the posters promoting the Oldboy remake.
As somebody who's been screwed in a not dissimilar fashion, I find this a rather loaded paragraph ...
I know, I saw all of the warning signs but the idea of working for you and having my design represent your film blinded me. So I went along with it. Dealing with the agency was one the worst experiences of my life. It affected all aspects of my life from my marriage to my work and my health. I was taken advantage of, lead on, lied to, manipulated, and harassed for over two months while I put all I had into designing the comps. I wanted to impress you and I guess I did.
ah yes, the warning signs. I saw them, too. But the idea of working with ___ (ie: my ambition) blinded me. Not excusing those who messed with me, but it's not as if I wasn't to at least some degree complicit in my screwing.
And what's with the "two months" part. My season in hell spread over two years. Mr. Garcia got off easy.
posted by philip-random at 9:22 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
I know, I saw all of the warning signs but the idea of working for you and having my design represent your film blinded me. So I went along with it. Dealing with the agency was one the worst experiences of my life. It affected all aspects of my life from my marriage to my work and my health. I was taken advantage of, lead on, lied to, manipulated, and harassed for over two months while I put all I had into designing the comps. I wanted to impress you and I guess I did.
ah yes, the warning signs. I saw them, too. But the idea of working with ___ (ie: my ambition) blinded me. Not excusing those who messed with me, but it's not as if I wasn't to at least some degree complicit in my screwing.
And what's with the "two months" part. My season in hell spread over two years. Mr. Garcia got off easy.
posted by philip-random at 9:22 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
Didn't we just establish that "all art is theft, but it seems like newly-minted, soi-disant "designers" would rather act shocked and pretend they don't know that"?
Did we? Because I'd prefer we establish you should pay people for their work.
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on November 28, 2013 [27 favorites]
Did we? Because I'd prefer we establish you should pay people for their work.
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on November 28, 2013 [27 favorites]
Lots of good "agency" wrath on the Hacker News thread
posted by sammyo at 9:33 AM on November 28, 2013
posted by sammyo at 9:33 AM on November 28, 2013
This isn't just Spike Lee's worst movie, it's practically his 'Wicker Man.'
Let’s put it this way: five years from now when you’re talking about Oldboy, nobody’s going to say ‘Which one?’
Notably it's the first Spike Lee movie that hasn't been a "joint" - I suspect something went badly wrong here, beyond it being a terrible idea from the start.
That said I have my fingers crossed for a Korean remake of "Summer of Sam".
posted by Artw at 9:34 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Let’s put it this way: five years from now when you’re talking about Oldboy, nobody’s going to say ‘Which one?’
Notably it's the first Spike Lee movie that hasn't been a "joint" - I suspect something went badly wrong here, beyond it being a terrible idea from the start.
That said I have my fingers crossed for a Korean remake of "Summer of Sam".
posted by Artw at 9:34 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Spike Lee's response: I Never Heard Of This Guy Juan Luis Garcia,If He Has A Beef It's Not With Me.I Did Not Hire Him,Do Not Know Him.Cheap Trick Writing To Me.YO
Classy.
posted by Silentgoldfish at 9:45 AM on November 28, 2013 [6 favorites]
Classy.
posted by Silentgoldfish at 9:45 AM on November 28, 2013 [6 favorites]
That side-by-side comparison is a perfect illustration of talent vs. hackery.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:49 AM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Sys Rq at 9:49 AM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
Well all art is not theft... but the line between appropriation / plagiarism / influence / inspiration etc is a blurred and murky one. It can be somewhat sharpened up in the courts... when it's generally decided - as with a lot of things, sadly - by who has the most money and hence the best lawers
And then you occasionally get somewhat silly cases like this one - Damien Hirst, Rihanna and Medusa: the latest plagiarism row (I mean I did a pix of medusa a few months back, perhaps I should sue the both of them)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:51 AM on November 28, 2013
And then you occasionally get somewhat silly cases like this one - Damien Hirst, Rihanna and Medusa: the latest plagiarism row (I mean I did a pix of medusa a few months back, perhaps I should sue the both of them)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:51 AM on November 28, 2013
This isn't just Spike Lee's worst movie, it's practically his 'Wicker Man.'
Let’s put it this way: five years from now when you’re talking about Oldboy, nobody’s going to say ‘Which one?’
So not so much Oldboy as Oh Boy!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:54 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Let’s put it this way: five years from now when you’re talking about Oldboy, nobody’s going to say ‘Which one?’
So not so much Oldboy as Oh Boy!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:54 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sadness and hope, met, checkmated, and clobbered with a combo of douchebaggery and malice. Such is the story of our times.
posted by blucevalo at 9:55 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by blucevalo at 9:55 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Somebody needs to get a copy of Design is a Job for the holidays. There's a whole chapter on getting a lawyer.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:01 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:01 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
In the words of the Joker: "If you're good at something, never do it for free."
I hope it turns out well for him, but I've my doubts.
posted by Mooski at 10:14 AM on November 28, 2013
I hope it turns out well for him, but I've my doubts.
posted by Mooski at 10:14 AM on November 28, 2013
Can we say here that Spike Lee has no sympathy for Mr. Vengeance?
posted by xmutex at 10:19 AM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by xmutex at 10:19 AM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
He's not exactly wrong, TBH, but boy is he being a dick about it.
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Nobody (including the designer) handled this ordeal properly.
posted by davebush at 10:37 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by davebush at 10:37 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Shorter Spike Lee: The buck stops with someone else.
posted by grouse at 10:38 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by grouse at 10:38 AM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Looking at his portfolio, there are posters for much higher profile films than "Oldboy". Were his posters for "Lincoln", "Django Unchained", "Jobs" and "12 Years A Slave" actually used?
posted by davebush at 10:56 AM on November 28, 2013
posted by davebush at 10:56 AM on November 28, 2013
This letter should have been written by the artist's attorney asserting copyright infringement. Copyright is complicated. Do the right thing, talk to an attorney. Trying to be nice and playing the wounded animal is what a sucker does.
posted by three blind mice at 11:03 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by three blind mice at 11:03 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
Seen on Twitter Re:Spike Lee - "He's no Amanda Palmer"
posted by Artw at 11:09 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:09 AM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Someone in the club tonight has stolen my ideas
posted by Sprocket at 11:22 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Sprocket at 11:22 AM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
".I Did Not Hire Him,Do Not Know Him.Cheap Trick Writing To Me.YO"
but his work is still up on Spike Lee's Facebook page
1989 = Do the Right Thing
2013 = Do the Wrong Thing
posted by Lanark at 11:37 AM on November 28, 2013 [8 favorites]
but his work is still up on Spike Lee's Facebook page
1989 = Do the Right Thing
2013 = Do the Wrong Thing
posted by Lanark at 11:37 AM on November 28, 2013 [8 favorites]
I did not know that this monstrosity was in production nor did I know that Spike Lee was helming it. I am suitably horrified.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 1:53 PM on November 28, 2013
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 1:53 PM on November 28, 2013
I was really looking forward to seeing Spike Lee piss in the eye of one of the best films of the past quarter century, but now I'm conflicted.
posted by Mike Smith at 2:04 PM on November 28, 2013
posted by Mike Smith at 2:04 PM on November 28, 2013
I Never Heard Of This Film Oldboy,If You Have A Beef It's Not With Me.I Did Not Direct It,Do Not Know Anything About It.Cheap Trick Blaming Me.YO
posted by sweet mister at 2:05 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by sweet mister at 2:05 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Spike Lee is a cool guy but seriously this movie did not need to be made. Oldboy in Korean is amazing, and part of it is the subtitles, different culture and the unbelievable intensity of the film.
I don't know the Korean equivalent term for 'Je ne sais quoi' but this film has it. I saw it years ago and I will never forget it- but I will also never watch it again!
posted by bquarters at 2:18 PM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
I don't know the Korean equivalent term for 'Je ne sais quoi' but this film has it. I saw it years ago and I will never forget it- but I will also never watch it again!
posted by bquarters at 2:18 PM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance is if anything even better, if you've not seen it.
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Huh. Lee tweets in Jaden Smith style.
How Can Posters Be Real If The Pay Wasn't Real?
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:39 PM on November 28, 2013
How Can Posters Be Real If The Pay Wasn't Real?
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:39 PM on November 28, 2013
Huh, weird to see this here. Juan (not Jean, as the FPP says) is a friend of a friend, so I saw this popping up on FB the other day. It's rough, because I work with friends without a contract all the time, but when I do work for a real business I get it in writing. They don't know me, and I've had enough try to fuck me that I don't play that anymore.
posted by klangklangston at 2:42 PM on November 28, 2013
posted by klangklangston at 2:42 PM on November 28, 2013
Have you seen my poster?
YO. Why are you asking me.
I haven't seen it.
I haven't seen any posters anywhere.
I would not steal a poster.
Don't ask me any more questions.
posted by benzenedream at 3:58 PM on November 28, 2013 [7 favorites]
YO. Why are you asking me.
I haven't seen it.
I haven't seen any posters anywhere.
I would not steal a poster.
Don't ask me any more questions.
posted by benzenedream at 3:58 PM on November 28, 2013 [7 favorites]
It Just Fell Out Onto My Facebook So Shut Up.
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:10 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
I honestly don't understand why (a) this was so traumatic for the designer, and (b) he didn't just file an infringement claim. It's a pretty straightforward situation with a pretty straightforward solution.
posted by schoolgirl report at 5:10 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by schoolgirl report at 5:10 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
That said I have my fingers crossed for a Korean remake of "Summer of Sam".
Memories of Murder is a much better film.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:29 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Memories of Murder is a much better film.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:29 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance is if anything even better, if you've not seen it.
I can't agree with you more. It's a much more nuanced and philosophical film, almost like a Kieslowski film. And it features two of my favorite Korean actors, Song Kang-Ho and Bae Doona.
posted by cazoo at 5:37 PM on November 28, 2013
I can't agree with you more. It's a much more nuanced and philosophical film, almost like a Kieslowski film. And it features two of my favorite Korean actors, Song Kang-Ho and Bae Doona.
posted by cazoo at 5:37 PM on November 28, 2013
Soundtrack isn't as good, though.
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:06 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:06 PM on November 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Good luck getting a lawyer to take your infringement claim if you never registered the copyright. Seeing as he never even had a contract to begin with I'm just going to assume he didn't register the work.
Sucks for the designer but after agreeing to do the work he should have gotten something in writing. He did this to himself.
Oh, and Spike Lee can go F himself with that twitter response.
posted by photoslob at 6:52 PM on November 28, 2013
Sucks for the designer but after agreeing to do the work he should have gotten something in writing. He did this to himself.
Oh, and Spike Lee can go F himself with that twitter response.
posted by photoslob at 6:52 PM on November 28, 2013
My post on one of the images on Facebook -
I find it so amusingly ironic. To have (potentially) stolen from an artist something to advertise a movie from a series primarily about theft. And if you don't want to keep seeing posts like this, I suggest a more comprehensive answer than an obliviously dismissive tweet. Seriously. Let's see some truth here.
---
MeFi Comment Starts Here
---
So, yeah, some of you can get all internet detectivey and find out my real name without looking at my profile. If anyone is cute and wants to be all stalkery, Facebook message/MeMail me and we can work something out.
posted by Samizdata at 7:38 PM on November 28, 2013
I find it so amusingly ironic. To have (potentially) stolen from an artist something to advertise a movie from a series primarily about theft. And if you don't want to keep seeing posts like this, I suggest a more comprehensive answer than an obliviously dismissive tweet. Seriously. Let's see some truth here.
---
MeFi Comment Starts Here
---
So, yeah, some of you can get all internet detectivey and find out my real name without looking at my profile. If anyone is cute and wants to be all stalkery, Facebook message/MeMail me and we can work something out.
posted by Samizdata at 7:38 PM on November 28, 2013
Mkay. So I went a little overboard and pasted the same comment to all the Oldboy poster shots.
posted by Samizdata at 7:41 PM on November 28, 2013
posted by Samizdata at 7:41 PM on November 28, 2013
I hired a hypnotist to block all memories of the original.
posted by humanfont at 8:05 PM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 8:05 PM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't think any of us come out of this looking too good.
posted by Flashman at 8:21 PM on November 28, 2013
posted by Flashman at 8:21 PM on November 28, 2013
Honestly, I'm kinda with Spike Lee on this, because of this:
My wife and I are expecting our first baby early next year and the thought of bringing them into this makes my eyes water.
posted by neuromodulator at 9:39 PM on November 28, 2013
My wife and I are expecting our first baby early next year and the thought of bringing them into this makes my eyes water.
posted by neuromodulator at 9:39 PM on November 28, 2013
It would appear that i'm the only person on the net who now wants to re-watch the original.
I can't decide if everyone else is strangely squeemish or if there were some details I've blocked from my memory... :/
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 11:26 PM on November 28, 2013
I can't decide if everyone else is strangely squeemish or if there were some details I've blocked from my memory... :/
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 11:26 PM on November 28, 2013
Honestly, because I don't know the plot of Oldboy, I couldn't say if the two posters were so similar based on their inclusion of plot elements or based on plagiarism.
But then I saw the link to Spike Lee's facebook page. Done. Spike loses. His joint, he's responsible for both paying this dude and for firing whichever of his subordinates dicked Garcia over.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 11:44 PM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
But then I saw the link to Spike Lee's facebook page. Done. Spike loses. His joint, he's responsible for both paying this dude and for firing whichever of his subordinates dicked Garcia over.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 11:44 PM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oldboy really knocked my socks off when I first saw it, although the whole "stress pregnancy" thing made me go "wat".
I still have screwdriver blue balls. Damn you for playing with my bloodthirst that way!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:05 AM on November 29, 2013
I still have screwdriver blue balls. Damn you for playing with my bloodthirst that way!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:05 AM on November 29, 2013
Surely this whole thing could be solved by someone eating a live octopus, no?
posted by ShutterBun at 12:10 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ShutterBun at 12:10 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Notably it's the first Spike Lee movie that hasn't been a "joint" - I suspect something went badly wrong here, beyond it being a terrible idea from the start.
The poster art (on Spike's Facebook page) says it's a joint. Do you have other info?
posted by ShutterBun at 12:12 AM on November 29, 2013
The poster art (on Spike's Facebook page) says it's a joint. Do you have other info?
posted by ShutterBun at 12:12 AM on November 29, 2013
Boy, no one came out looking good on this one.
And, I kind of feel for the guy, the designer, but if you do it for free, you're doing it for free: I hope for his sake he holds copyright and etc. so he has a legal case. Also, I've definitely met people so unpleasant they make your teeth ache - the kind of people you turn down money to avoid. It seems like most of these people have worked in some variation of "account management," but still, sometimes you gotta figure out why you are reacting the way you are so you can control your reaction so you can get paid.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:01 AM on November 29, 2013
And, I kind of feel for the guy, the designer, but if you do it for free, you're doing it for free: I hope for his sake he holds copyright and etc. so he has a legal case. Also, I've definitely met people so unpleasant they make your teeth ache - the kind of people you turn down money to avoid. It seems like most of these people have worked in some variation of "account management," but still, sometimes you gotta figure out why you are reacting the way you are so you can control your reaction so you can get paid.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:01 AM on November 29, 2013
On a second reading, this dude's letter is something of a failure for a few reasons.
1. Why the hell doesn't he explicitly name the agency he was working for?
2. Seeking pity and expressing need because of tough personal circumstances is a lousy negotiation tactic for a freelancer. You get paid not because you need the money, you get paid because you did work that has value. Whining about personal circumstances makes you appear weak, and thus less of a threat to somebody who ripped you off.
I think Mr. Garcia should've watched this excellent bit of video.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 2:21 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
1. Why the hell doesn't he explicitly name the agency he was working for?
2. Seeking pity and expressing need because of tough personal circumstances is a lousy negotiation tactic for a freelancer. You get paid not because you need the money, you get paid because you did work that has value. Whining about personal circumstances makes you appear weak, and thus less of a threat to somebody who ripped you off.
I think Mr. Garcia should've watched this excellent bit of video.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 2:21 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Guardian picked this up today, the photos have been removed from Spikes facebook page and Juan Luis Garcia has now taken down the open letter.
I'm guessing lawyers are now involved.
posted by Lanark at 9:04 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm guessing lawyers are now involved.
posted by Lanark at 9:04 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Fingers crossed it's not Spike suing Juan in a Goldie Blox twist.
posted by Artw at 9:08 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by Artw at 9:08 AM on November 29, 2013
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
But seriously, his original was far better than the glossy Annie Liebowitz-style rip-off they went with, and this and other incidents paint Spike Lee as an arrogant dickhead, but on the bright side this nastiness will, in the end probably prove to be better for Garcia than if he'd taken the crappy compenasition offer in the first place.
posted by Flashman at 9:22 AM on November 28, 2013 [2 favorites]