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December 4, 2013 4:11 PM   Subscribe

Wonder Woman will be finally be appearing on the big screen, though not in her own film. Instead she'll appear in the untitled Batman vs Superman movie set to open in 2015 that will be directed by Zack Snyder. The character will be played by actress Gal Gadot.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (200 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite

 
I'm excited to see Wonder Woman on the big screen, less excited that she'll make her first appearance there in a Zack Snyder film. Suckerpunch, indeed.
posted by zanni at 4:18 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


All of that sounds good except "directed by Zack Snyder."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:18 PM on December 4, 2013 [14 favorites]


For those of us who care about comics and female super heroes, this is interesting, relevant, and unprecedented. I actually had a post in progress about it myself.
posted by skycrashesdown at 4:22 PM on December 4, 2013


I really wanted Rhona Mitra, but then, I guess at 37, Hollywood thinks she's old. Harrumph.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:22 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Zack Snyder? Why?! What eldritch hold does that creature have on movie studios that he keeps getting work?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:22 PM on December 4, 2013 [10 favorites]


I'm just going to directly quote a Tumblr post that cropped up on my dash recently because it so perfectly encapsulates my feelings on the matter:

Why Is It So Hard For You To Make A Wonder Woman or Black Widow Origins Movie You Pieces Of Shit ‘We Don’t Have The Money Or Resources’ Is That Why You’re Making Another Hit Batman Movie As If We’ve Never Seen One Before Wow What An Original And ‘Dark And Edgy’ Idea I Hate You: A Memoir

Seriously though. I am so, so tired of women getting sidelined as 'bonus' characters in wish-fulfillment stories. It's like we're incapable of having female heroes unless the story is about how they are dragged out into the spotlight to save their loved ones and it's a gritty story of suffering. It's not that those heroines are less worthy in any way, but just freakin' ONCE I would like to see a giant blockbuster asskicking movie that is pure wish fulfillment with a woman superhero. I don't understand why this is so freakin' hard for Hollywood to understand.

And no, side characters getting to kick ass do not count. Pepper Potts' role in Iron Man 3 was great, but the movie is ultimately still all about Tony Stark all the time.

tl;dr-- all I want for Xmas is a Black Widow origins movie (1).

1. That's not all about How Sexual Violence Made Natasha Who She Is Today because I swear to sweet Christ I think that's the only acceptable backstory for women sometimes "SHE'S SO BROKEN YOU GUYS LOOK HOW BROKEN SHE IS."
posted by WidgetAlley at 4:23 PM on December 4, 2013 [69 favorites]


I have been waiting for Gadot, though not terribly interested in Snyder. Man of Steel was pretty un watchable; I can't think of anything of his I happened to watch and enjoy. :+

Then again, the treatments that have been scrfapped weren't great, either--wish I had some decent ideas how to make it work. She's got to get on screen somehow.
posted by tilde at 4:23 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Excuse you but there is nothing unwatchable about Henry Cavill's superbooty.

Why it wasn't just 2 hours of that is beyond me though.
posted by elizardbits at 4:26 PM on December 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


Has Zack Snyder made enough shitty movies since the Dawn of the Dead remake that we can all admit the credit for that one probably should go to James Gunn?

I'm a heckuva lot more excited about Guardians of the Galaxy. -- crucial link, y'all
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:26 PM on December 4, 2013 [11 favorites]


I can't wait for her sum total of ten lines if we're being generous.

tl;dr-- all I want for Xmas is a Black Widow origins movie


Hey Marvel, want to do a quick and dirty little action, something made on NO BUDGET with lots of tense scenes and a puzzle-box structure that delivers a HUGE ROI? You make this and you call it Budapest.

Like I'm pretty sure the Hungarian film board would pay you to make this movie.
posted by The Whelk at 4:28 PM on December 4, 2013 [37 favorites]


Why Is It So Hard For You To Make A Wonder Woman or Black Widow Origins Movie You Pieces Of Shit ‘We Don’t Have The Money Or Resources’ Is That Why You’re Making Another Hit Batman Movie As If We’ve Never Seen One Before Wow What An Original And ‘Dark And Edgy’ Idea I Hate You: A Memoir

Because Hollywood studios are massive giant profit-maximizing corporations and a Batman movie is guaranteed a wider audience and more money than a superhero movie where the superhero is a woman it's not hard to understand.
posted by xmutex at 4:28 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


I think that's the only acceptable backstory for women sometimes "SHE'S SO BROKEN YOU GUYS LOOK HOW BROKEN SHE IS."

Seriously. It's doubly offensive because it is perfectly fucking plausible to say SHE LIKES PUTTING ON HER FIGHTIN TIGHTS AND KICKING ASS.
posted by elizardbits at 4:29 PM on December 4, 2013 [15 favorites]


more money than a superhero movie where the superhero is a woman it's not hard to understand.

Yeah, I heard the Hunger Games totally tanked in the box office! Not a penny!
posted by elizardbits at 4:29 PM on December 4, 2013 [37 favorites]


We're already in a Monkey's Paw mode with her showing up at all, you want to make it worse with a solo movie?
posted by Artw at 4:31 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


tl;dr-- all I want for Xmas is a Black Widow origins movie

Hey Marvel, want to do a quick and dirty little action, something made on NO BUDGET with lots of tense scenes and a puzzle-box structure that delivers a HUGE ROI? You make this and you call it Budapest.

Like I'm pretty sure the Hungarian film board would pay you to make this movie.


Oooh and hire Hungary's own Nimrod Antal (Predators, Kontroll) to direct. That guy needs to get the benefit of a good script for once. It'd be nice to see him getting a gig that went beyond "classing up what should have been a shitty B picture."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:31 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Unlike many, I like the work of Zack Snyder. I thought Watchmen was great and about as close to a frame-for-frame adaptation that could have happened. The problem wasn't Snyder it was the fact that to one would have needed to re-work the material using classic film tropes to have the same storytelling effectiveness of the book. As has been said many times, Watchmen is inherently unfilmable because it is a metafictional comic that uses the conventions of comics to deconstruct the conventions of comics. So as it was, the Watchmen movie was about as good Watchmen movie as could ever exist. If someone wanted to completely re-work the material from a movie-world perspective it would be awesome. The closest I've really seen to the idea would be Last Action Hero, which is great in its own way but obviously not really on the level of Watchmen.

The problem I have with this as yet untitled Batman/Superman film is that it is trying to cram too much cinematic universe building into a single film. The Avengers worked in part because it had no less then 5 official (and a couple other unofficially related) films that led into it each one with universe building and linking elements. All the characters came in fully developed with a known element bringing them together. DC in their attempt to build a cinematic universe is somehow throwing too many, and not enough elements into a single film that will inevitably end up in disaster. But it won't be Snyder's fault. The film will look wonderful, and he will have done what he could to make the script work, assuming he doesn't write it in full. But its failure will be pinned on him unfairly. He is a great filmmaker.

Except for Sucker Punch, that was a pantload of garbage. And I blame his ..Dead reboot for the fast zombie ubiquity which is an unforgivable sin. But these aren't related to his abilities as a filmmaker.
posted by mediocre at 4:32 PM on December 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


Hey Marvel, want to do a quick and dirty little action, something made on NO BUDGET with lots of tense scenes and a puzzle-box structure that delivers a HUGE ROI? You make this and you call it Budapest.

I would see this ten times and then buy 15 DVD copies, for real. Especially if it were Natasha-and-her-side-kick-Hawkeye. Oh, be still my heart.

Because Hollywood studios are massive giant profit-maximizing corporations and a Batman movie is guaranteed a wider audience and more money than a superhero movie where the superhero is a woman it's not hard to understand.

Yeah, I hear this all the time, but, um, Hunger Games? Also, there's an even stronger cultural understanding that "women aren't funny" and The Heat still did really well at the box office. I've never seen stats one way or the other, and considering how there's not really any reasonable comparison because not enough action movies with female leads even get made for a statistical analysis, I'm going to go ahead and say that's more of a Just So Story (kinda like video games and teenage boys) than a real thing.

We're already in a Monkey's Paw mode with her showing up at all, you want to make it worse with a solo movie?

I'm not sure what "monkey's paw" means except for that silly ghost story we all told in elementary school. What do you mean, Artw?
posted by WidgetAlley at 4:34 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Unlike many, I like the work of Zack Snyder.

Burn the witch!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:35 PM on December 4, 2013 [6 favorites]


I want to see Zack Snyder direct Waiting For Godot.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:35 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Unlike many, I like the work of Zack Snyder.
posted by mediocre



Umm ... eponyhysterical?
posted by Myca at 4:36 PM on December 4, 2013 [23 favorites]


Don't forget that inexplicable piece of shit about magic warrior owls or whatever the fuck it was, mediocre.

For me, Watchmen died *because* of his attention to detail. He had such a fetish for recreating the comic book just so that he neglected to worry about making a good MOVIE.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:36 PM on December 4, 2013 [7 favorites]


For me, Watchmen died *because* of his attention to detail. He had such a fetish for recreating the comic book just so that he neglected to worry about making a good MOVIE.

That, and people kept punching through walls for some reason. They're just human, Zack! Not superpowered! That was the entire point!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:38 PM on December 4, 2013 [12 favorites]


tl;dr-- all I want for Xmas is a Black Widow origins movie

A friend mentioned it would be great if there was Black Widow movie where she was trained by Melinda May from Agents of Shield. That would intriguing

As to Gardot as Wonder Woman, I'm not really familiar with her, but hopefully she manages to pull it off and her portrayal gets fans demanding a WW movie. That said, it'll be interesting to see how she appears in the costume, as I always imagined Wonder Woman as similar to Frigga in Thor: Dark World. A skilled diplomat, accustomed to moving in royal courts, but able to pick up a sword and kick ass at a moment's notice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:39 PM on December 4, 2013 [10 favorites]


Well I hope she plans on bulking up.
posted by 2bucksplus at 4:39 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


m a heckuva lot more excited about Guardians of the Galaxy. -- crucial link, y'all

Rocket Raccoon, aww yiss.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:41 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Winter Soldier is looking to be the crazy SHIELD movie we need, with plenty of Falcon and Black Widow, rather than the insipid TV show.
posted by Artw at 4:41 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Well I hope she plans on bulking up.

It's not that skinny people can't be strong and fast, etc., or that we should demand women's bodies conform to a certain Thing all the time, but it would be really cool to see a female superhero onscreen who actually looked like the Lady Equivalent of Chris Evans.
posted by WidgetAlley at 4:42 PM on December 4, 2013 [21 favorites]


I would see this ten times and then buy 15 DVD copies, for real. Especially if it were Natasha-and-her-side-kick-Hawkeye. Oh, be still my heart.

I want the whole thing to be Tinker, Tailor, Solider, Spy with more head butting and roof-jumping, Our American Heroes drawn into a sticky Cold War-y situation in picturesque Budapest ( complete with castle and ottoman baths) with an X-Factor of a KGB agent who miiiiight be willing to defect but also might be playing a long con.
posted by The Whelk at 4:43 PM on December 4, 2013 [9 favorites]


Winter Soldier is looking to be the crazy SHIELD movie we need, with plenty of Falcon and Black Widow, rather than the insipid TV show.

God I hope so, all the buzz says that Natasha has a major part, and I hope that's true because of SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER.
posted by The Whelk at 4:44 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


That, and people kept punching through walls for some reason. They're just human, Zack! Not superpowered! That was the entire point!

Not to mention the erotic framing of violence and maiming in the fight scenes. Snyder rather missed the point of what Moore was trying to say.

Hunger Games and Frozen were huge hits and made boatloads. The former are pretty damn good, the latter was wonderful. It's beyond fucking time.

Though Artw is right to be wary. Most likely it'd be written and directed by the sort of men who would just fuck her up.
posted by middleclasstool at 4:45 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Also, gravity, a female fronted thriller, made huuuuuge bank.
posted by The Whelk at 4:46 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


I hope that's true because of SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER.

I'm hopeful because of Robert Redford's presence. This doesn't seem like his usual thing.
posted by middleclasstool at 4:46 PM on December 4, 2013


God I hope so, all the buzz says that Natasha has a major part, and I hope that's true because of SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER.

There is at least one scene in the trailer that really, really looks like Cap carrying her unconscious out of the rubble and I am already pre-enraged about that. (Even more so about the fact that the whole point of Black Widow is that she's the Red Room's attempt to recreate Captain America so why is he somehow higher up on the superpowers hierarchy than her when she can do the same stuff but in spy!mode which is exactly the sort of problem a backstory movie would solve and excuse me I have to lie down for a moment, I just get really annoyed about superhero movies.)
posted by WidgetAlley at 4:48 PM on December 4, 2013 [9 favorites]


Also, gravity, a female fronted thriller, made huuuuuge bank.

I see this more as: Sandra Bullock gonna Sandra Bullock.
posted by 2bucksplus at 4:48 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Guys, Steven Soderberg was on board to direct Winter Solider but while he pulled out he still did some consulting, behind the scenes suggestions, etc. He was interested because he wanted to do a major superhero movie that felt more like a political spy thriller and less of a bombastic, heroic shoot em up.

Think about Soderberg's Captain America movie.

We've all seen Haywire right? WE HAVE ALL SEEN HAYWIRE RIGHT?

(. My mental image of a great Black Widow movie is basically Haywire )
posted by The Whelk at 4:50 PM on December 4, 2013 [12 favorites]




Also, gravity, a female fronted thriller, made huuuuuge bank.

I believe the main character in Gravity was not Sandra Bullock but rather the special effects.

Still, female fronted action movies please.
posted by solarion at 4:52 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Everybody who hasn't seen Haywire should just go see it right now.
posted by Artw at 4:53 PM on December 4, 2013 [7 favorites]


It has a perfect figure 8 story structure and an actual Black Widow type spy/fighter doing actual Spy Stuffs.
posted by The Whelk at 4:55 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


It looks to me from the trailer like they're doing Winter Soldier plus the whole HAMMER thing minus Osborn and Stark.
posted by middleclasstool at 4:55 PM on December 4, 2013


I particularly like when she runs circles around the Bond Analog in the form of Fassbender.
posted by The Whelk at 4:55 PM on December 4, 2013


The acting is terrible and the plot is kind of idiotic, but Sucker Punch is fun because it's so stylized. Each scene is somewhere between a music video and a level of a video game. There are lots of mindless action-type moves I don't like, but Sucker Punch was so unbelievable, both on the level of the plot and that it got made at all, I just sat back and enjoyed it.

I felt much the same way about 300.

The Watchmen - good movie.

So I'm a Zack Synder fan too! Mostly! But Man of Steel was pretty terrible.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 4:56 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


The movie's going to be a mess anyway; they could at least have gone so far out on a limb as to have cast an Amazon who looks like an Amazon.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:59 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Everything I've heard about Man of Steel suggests its for people who hate everything that makes Superman be Superman, so I have no interest in it, nor any sequels thereof.
posted by Artw at 5:00 PM on December 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


Haywire is on Netflix, by the by. Just dropped it in my queue, thanks.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:01 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


The fight scene blocking in Haywire is very refreshingly straightforward, just one big master shot with enough space to let the actors move around and smack each other.
posted by The Whelk at 5:02 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Not to spoil anybody's fun, but I thought Haywire had the martial arts fight sequences you'd expect from a political spy thriller, and the careful plotting and subtle writing you'd expect from a kung fu movie.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:02 PM on December 4, 2013 [7 favorites]


Not to spoil anybody's fun, but I thought Haywire had the martial arts fight sequences you'd expect from a political spy thriller, and the careful plotting and subtle writing you'd expect from a kung fu movie.

*sighs happily* I know what I'm doing literally 30 seconds after I turn in this semester's very last paper.
posted by WidgetAlley at 5:04 PM on December 4, 2013 [6 favorites]


It's about as logical as any Jason Bourne movie with a neat narrative structure framing device.

Which is more or less what I'd want to see in a Natasha focused movie, but with more dramatic tax-credit given Central Europe settings.
posted by The Whelk at 5:04 PM on December 4, 2013


I feel like you guys have some unreasonable expectations about movies.
posted by incessant at 5:07 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I feel my expectations re:Zack Synder are pretty well set by now.
posted by Artw at 5:10 PM on December 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


This is what we do instead of liking sports.
posted by The Whelk at 5:11 PM on December 4, 2013 [22 favorites]


I feel like you guys have some unreasonable expectations about movies.

I've recently watched several Godzilla movies, of the man-in-suit variety, and found them passably entertaining.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that again. Godzilla movies.

I have low tastes, and I'm easily amused. I'd just prefer a Wonder Woman who weighs more than 110 pounds. Is that so wrong?
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:12 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


I'm willing to bet cash money that the Snyderian Wonder Woman is a human/Kryptonian hybrid made from the crashed womb ship in the first one. Either that or she has no superpowers but her, uh, 'tude. Each are a bad idea, but each bad idea has some sort of grounding in the comics (Wonder Woman was made from clay! This is techno space clay! -and- She lost all her powers and became a mod maven for awhile in the 60s).

At least the actress is from a country that borders on the Mediterranean?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:12 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Either that or she has no superpowers but her, uh, 'tude.

And her invisible skateboard.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:13 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I hope George Clooney plays her
posted by thelonius at 5:15 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Clooney has to actually release Mouments Men AKA the movie I suspect they made literally just for me and me personality
posted by The Whelk at 5:16 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


I hope George Clooney plays her

He'll definitely try.
posted by The World Famous at 5:17 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


People talk like this is just them trying to maximize profit and pander to the audiences, that they do this and not a Wonder Woman movie straight out, but I find it kind of interesting that, like, we don't expect that kind of purity of capitalism elsewhere. When qualified women get passed over for men in the workplace, we can believe that happens, right? Because sexism, not because just magically all the men are more capable than the women? Why do we place the blame for this on audiences, which skew considerably more female than the movie studio executives who are making these decisions?

It doesn't always stand to reason that every decision they make is actually an accurate interpretation of whether audiences would or would not appreciate a picture. They're as subject to biases as anybody else. It's kinda like why we don't see more people of color leading big-budget pictures--Will Smith seems to have managed audience appeal just fine, I don't think the trouble is that audiences don't like women or black people or whatever. I think the problem's higher up.
posted by Sequence at 5:18 PM on December 4, 2013 [16 favorites]


Count me as another Haywire Achiever. I wanted Gina Carano for WW.
posted by Kafkaesque at 5:18 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm actually cautiously optimistic on the MCU front cause Thor 2 seemed to totally understand that the characters where supER popular among female audiences and basically made a rollicking romantic comedy with PUNCHING and ALIENS JUST FOR THEM ( and me, I had a big stupid grin on my face the entire time, which is more then I can say for Man Of Steel)
posted by The Whelk at 5:20 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I heard the Hunger Games totally tanked in the box office! Not a penny!

I half understand your point and half don't find this a fair retort, as that is clearly not what xmutex said. He/she specifically said superhero movies. I don't think anyone's arguing that action adventure movies starring women on the whole won't sell.

Hollywood is, in fact, a giant profit-maximizing model, and Hollywood will, in fact, choose to bank on Batman knowing it will sell well over fronting a movie for a property that simply, for a fact, does not have the current merchandising and cultural appeal as other properties. The industry has used more-successful properties to spinoff other attempts for decades. I think they're even called spinoffs. It sucks that Wonder Woman is being relegated to a "spinoff of Superman" but given the attempts at the solo TV show tanked this seems like a really good attempt to take a risk on introducing the character in a way a studio will actually support.

The last issue of Wonder Woman was the 77th best selling comic of last month. The last issue of the Superman/Wonder Woman teamup was 7th. Of the 76 comics that sold better than Wonder Woman last month, over a dozen of them each had either Superman or Batman. That's why there's going to be a Superman and Batman movie with Wonder Woman in it. Hunger Games sold a quarter-million copies in its first year and topped best-seller lists for two years. That's why there was a Hunger Games movie. If Wonder Woman sold like Hunger Games did we would be talking about how excited we were for Wonder Woman 3 already.

The bigger problem is that WB will look at female superhero movies in the context of how those did. And regardless of the situations that caused or it or the fairness thereof, those movies tanked. I'm supporting WB's attempt to get an opening to fix that, weak tea as it may be.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 5:22 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Set the stage for Barda, lest she set your stage across your brow.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:25 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Gal Gadot was in the last 3 Fast & Furious movies and quickly became an integral part. She was badass and had amazing chemistry with Han; the two of them were at the core of the films not just because they were awesome but because they were the easiest too root for out of a cast of immensely likeable characters. I've given up on superhero movies but I'm happy that she's getting this huge break.
posted by edeezy at 5:26 PM on December 4, 2013


Haywire isn't a bad movie. For what it is: a simple spy thriller about someone kickass who gets betrayed and has to go on the run to get revenge--it's pretty good. The sequence where Gina Carano is escaping across the rooftops in Dublin is brilliant, and not just because she's dressed entirely practically: in non-skinny jeans, flat-soled boots, and a hoodie.

It's not brilliant and Gina Carano's not the world's best actress, but she's no worse than most of the male action heroes out there. And she looks the part.

To get back on topic: I would have liked to see Carano as Diana the Amazon Princess, although I think the character work might have been a stretch for her. I really thought Adrienne Palicki could have pulled it off--she has the acting chops and the build. But David E. Kelley ruined that for her.
posted by suelac at 5:27 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


The last issue of Wonder Woman was the 77th best selling comic of last month. The last issue of the Superman/Wonder Woman teamup was 7th.

Interestingly, I agree with both you and Sequence. I think that, by and large, male audiences are probably a little less likely to go see a superhero movie starring a woman (now, whether that makes a difference at the box office or not is a different question), and studio execs are WAY less likely to make the movie in the first place, because it's pretty hard to deny that Hollywood is sexist, and that the low ranking of the Wonder Woman comics is probably due both to the fact that there's a smaller readership for female superheros because sexism but also that male writers traditionally have done a shit job with female superheroes and women writers don't get hired and comics is such an unfriendly place for women generally.

It's just a big pile of sexism (and that's even without any sort of intersectional analysis), and we can try to fix it in a bunch of ways. I just wish one of those ways was on the movie end, because I happen to like watching movies better than I like reading comics.
posted by WidgetAlley at 5:29 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


I liked the idea of Gina Carano as a Doctor Who who turns up in the TARDIS, beats the shit out of some Space-Hitler, then fucks off again without saying a word.
posted by Artw at 5:35 PM on December 4, 2013 [10 favorites]


The last issue of Wonder Woman was the 77th best selling comic of last month.

Ex-comics reader and Wonder Woman fan here. Let us not forget that people like me, aka female people, have been the object of a fairly open gtfo (of fandom) effort by DC management for a while now. If Wonder Woman can't sell a comic book, it might have something to do with the misogynist suckitude of DC comics and their management running off all the women who went to Hunger Games instead.
posted by immlass at 5:38 PM on December 4, 2013 [18 favorites]


2bucksplus: Well I hope she plans on bulking up

WidgetAlley: It's not that skinny people can't be strong and fast, etc., or that we should demand women's bodies conform to a certain Thing all the time, but it would be really cool to see a female superhero onscreen who actually looked like the Lady Equivalent of Chris Evans.

*searches for pictures of Gal Gadot*

WONDER WOMAN IS AN AMAZON. I could snap this woman in half and I have the upper body strength of arthritic mice.

FFS.

paging Gina Torres....
posted by tzikeh at 5:38 PM on December 4, 2013 [14 favorites]


I'm not sure what "monkey's paw" means except for that silly ghost story we all told in elementary school. What do you mean, Artw?

I think it means you wish for a Wonder Woman movie and then they give to you the worst Wonder Woman movie possible because all your wishes have to turn sour.
posted by RobotHero at 5:39 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


paging Gina Torres....

I'll be in my bunk...
posted by mikelieman at 5:40 PM on December 4, 2013


A+ WOULD GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH AGAIN
posted by roll truck roll at 5:40 PM on December 4, 2013


[Would it be at all possible to have this conversation without this turning into an exercise in lulzily objectifying talented female actresses? Just wondering... love, your mostly female mod team.]
posted by jessamyn at 5:44 PM on December 4, 2013 [28 favorites]


tzikeh: "WONDER WOMAN IS AN AMAZON. I could snap this woman in half and I have the upper body strength of arthritic mice."

She was a sports trainer in the Israeli Armed Forces so...

(This is also the bit where I point out how how Hollywood treats visibly muscular women and thus any PR for any woman wanting to be anything other than 'hilarious' or butch is going to necessarily tone down the musculature)
posted by geek anachronism at 5:45 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


paging Gina Torres....

BRING BACK CLEOPATRA 2525
posted by Peccable at 5:47 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Seriously, though, Haywire is awesome. I want Gina Carano not just for Wonder Woman, but for everybody from here to Agnes Macphail (proposed storyboard).
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 5:48 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yeah, could we not do the thing where we say the actor in question is so teeny-tiny and then pile on why she can't be WW?

I am baffled as most folk as to why Zack Snyder continues to get work, but god, I hope it goes well.
posted by Kitteh at 5:49 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


I believe the main character in Gravity was not Sandra Bullock but rather the special effects.

The main character in Gravity was tension.
posted by Mikey-San at 5:50 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Unlike many, I like the work of Zack Snyder.

(gets out laptop, loads up PowerPoint presentation, sets up projector, lowers lights, begins to speak--)

Except for Sucker Punch, that was a pantload of garbage

(-- coughs, turns up lights, puts away projector, shuts laptop)
posted by JHarris at 5:52 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm not sure it matters really how much muscle she has since she is a goddess and all

Also the only people I could snap like a twig would be some kind of twig-people
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:53 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


This seems like a good place to mention that Chris Sims at Comics Alliance has been tearing it up with a series of articles about the history of DC, their differences from Marvel, and their attitude toward their characters.

- Do Superman-esque characters like The Sentry or Blue Marvel work in the Marvel Universe?
- DC, Marvel, and "The Problem"
- What DC's "Superman: A Celebration Of 75 Years" Says About How They See Their Flagship Character
- Building A Better Best-Of: How To Fix DC's "Superman: A Celebration Of 75 Years"

The second link (on "The Problem") is the standout article, if you only have time for one. This is some Eisner-caliber comics writing.
posted by painquale at 5:53 PM on December 4, 2013 [25 favorites]


Came here to cast my vote for Gina Carano, sure that no one else would be as clever as I. Happily, I was wrong. +1 for Carano being the superior choice for this role. Though it now be moot.
posted by scamper at 6:12 PM on December 4, 2013


I don't get all of the dislike for Sucker Punch. Not quite my favourite, but an interesting movie on it's own terms.
posted by ovvl at 6:13 PM on December 4, 2013




"Haywire" was an entertaining action movie, and Gina Carano would have made a pretty good Wonder Woman. She's got the right overall look, obviously could handle the fighting and action stuff OK, and at 5'8" tall, is not exactly Amazonian, but at least is above-average in height.

Gal Gadot is brunette and pretty, like WW, but in still photos, does look a bit slight for most people's idea of the character. Perhaps she'll weight-train to bulk up for the role? Plenty of actors, male and female, have done that sort of thing before.

"Suckerpunch" had a few interesting visuals, but almost no other redeeming features. And FWIW, I actually enjoyed "Watchmen" as an adaptation of, rather than a substitute for, the comic.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 6:18 PM on December 4, 2013


painquale, those links are excellent.
posted by JHarris at 6:22 PM on December 4, 2013


Also nthing Carano, and am surprised that no one who's mentioned Guardians of the Galaxy linked to this. And, finally, it's worth noting that the comics industry, or at least Marvel, has looked at the success of The Hunger Games and, instead of pondering what makes for a strong female protagonist, has produced something called Avengers Arena (which really has nothing to do with the Avengers, but the Avengers are hot now, so...) in which longtime villain Arcade is pitting teenage superheroes against each other, because... well, never mind why; point is, teens is killin' teens, and the kids gotta like that, right? Your best entertainment value, ladies and germs.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:24 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


The main character in Gravity was tension.

SHHHH. We just managed to get the Soyuz module calmed and back in his trailer and the Shenzhou sobered up and here you are, saying they aren't important.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:42 PM on December 4, 2013


Sometimes an actor isn't physically right for a part, especially one with an established visual identity. Jason Alexander is a talented actor, but he wouldn't make a convincing Conan the Barbarian without a lot of work, and I wouldn't feel badly for pointing it out.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:50 PM on December 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


I would watch the hell out of Jason Alexander as Conan the Barbarian, man.
posted by The World Famous at 6:58 PM on December 4, 2013 [12 favorites]


Eh, Gardot may not quite look the part at this particular moment to some people (including me), but there's always movie magic and, well, acting. She looks like a somewhat odd choice, but it's sort of senseless to complain about movie that isn't even written yet, let alone started filming.

We'll just see how it goes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:59 PM on December 4, 2013


We just managed to get the Soyuz module calmed and back in his trailer and the Shenzhou sobered up

"I'm not just a copy of him! I'm not! I'm an INDIVIDUAL! *hic*"
posted by Artw at 7:17 PM on December 4, 2013


Lots of actors are tiny. Never stopped Tom Cruise from playing hero, I don't know why it should be a factor for Wonder Woman. Though it is also nice to see the rare times big strapping gals get work, so I'm good with that too.

In a world where crapass hero movies tank on a regular basis, but no one ever says "men can't carry a hero movie, let's never do that again!" I think we can drop Hollywood Is a Logical Money Machine as an excuse and just admit the lack of women onscreen is about sexism.
posted by emjaybee at 7:21 PM on December 4, 2013 [5 favorites]


Eh, Gardot may not quite look the part at this particular moment to some people (including me), but there's always movie magic and, well, acting. She looks like a somewhat odd choice, but it's sort of senseless to complain about movie that isn't even written yet, let alone started filming.

My initial feeling was that she didn't have the shape I expected for Wonder Woman, but then I thought about 300 and how most of those perfect sets of abs probably didn't exist until after the movie got started. I'd have to agree, let's wait until some shots of the movie come out before we form opinions about how convincing the body doing the bad guy punching is going to be.
posted by Peccable at 7:22 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'd have to agree, let's wait until some shots of the movie come out before we form opinions about how convincing the body doing the bad guy punching is going to be.

It's also important to realize that this is a comic book character being adapted to a movie, so it wouldn't be surprising if some changes are made and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. By all accounts Gardot can play an impressive action character, so that's a good sign. The important thing to remember is that there's nothing obvious that'll says Gardot can't do the job, so wish her and the production well and keep your fingers crossed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:31 PM on December 4, 2013


Widgetalley: tl;dr-- all I want for Xmas is a Black Widow origins movie (1).
1. That's not all about How Sexual Violence Made Natasha Who She Is Today because I swear to sweet Christ I think that's the only acceptable backstory for women sometimes "SHE'S SO BROKEN YOU GUYS LOOK HOW BROKEN SHE IS."


I could not begin to express the depths of my joy if we got a Black Widow movie all about Natasha Romanova vs. Yelena Belova translated into the MCU: not an origins movie, per se, but drawing on Natasha's past motives as a Red Room agent vs. Yelena's pursuit to take the Black Widow codename for her own by elimination--something that digs into their minds like Greg Rucka's Breakdown arc did. /sighs wistfully

I'm not familiar with DC, but it's a travesty Wonder Woman won't have her own movie in light of all the Batman and Superman reboots. I look forward to Gardot's performance.
posted by ilicet at 7:36 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


I know that down this road lies ruin, but I love Adrianne Palicki so much I was super bummed that her turn as Wonder Woman was a total fiasco that I attribute to bad writing as opposed to bad acting. They should draft her for the part again!!!
posted by to sir with millipedes at 7:41 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


So, um, this thread is kinda creepy.

Just sayin.
posted by The World Famous at 8:04 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


It just hit me that if you wanted a Black Widow Budapest origin movie to really land with a demographic you'd set in the very last days of the Berlin Wall and be full of wistful New Ave nuclear paranoia songs. The trailer could totally use 99 Luftballons.

"Please Please Please Let Me Get What I want" would have to make an appearance at least.
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on December 4, 2013 [6 favorites]


I am conflicted between wanting to support wonder woman on the screen and wanting to stay the hell away from the Snyder Superman films.

Maybe Marvel could get around to creating Captain Marvel starring Katee Sackhoff and I can just watch that instead.

Black Widow would work best as anything but an origin story, I think. I'm sick of origin stories and we already know the character. Have it be a spy thriller in the middle of her career, or even a dramedy about being a spy who now appears in US magazine. There's a lot of other stories to be told.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:12 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


You don't need origin-origin, just when she got into SHIELD's radar.

I'd burn a number of 20 dollar bills at the alter of the many toothy Gods for "Natasha and Clint are Best Buds And Also Spies For A Hundred And Twenty Minutes"
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on December 4, 2013 [6 favorites]


(basically I want a covert Modesty Blaise and Willie Garvin movie)
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Lots of actors are tiny. Never stopped Tom Cruise from playing hero, I don't know why it should be a factor for Wonder Woman.

If the character was going to be wearing a costume that covered most of the actor's body, I would totally agree. That's why I chose Conan as a comparison - when you know that most of the actor's body is going to be uncovered, then the body type starts to matter more.

You have a wider range of bodies to choose from when casting a convincing Batman because the suit does half the work. The Wonder Woman or Conan suits can only do so much, and only for the relatively small areas they cover.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:27 PM on December 4, 2013


Re: bodytypes - a lot of people said RDJ was too short to play Tony Stark. Look how that turned out.

Re: female lead superhero movies - perhaps the studios are a little gun shy after Elektra, Catwoman, Ultraviolet, and Aeon Flux.
posted by zakur at 8:29 PM on December 4, 2013


Ex-comics reader and Wonder Woman fan here. Let us not forget that people like me, aka female people, have been the object of a fairly open gtfo (of fandom) effort by DC management for a while now. If Wonder Woman can't sell a comic book, it might have something to do with the misogynist suckitude of DC comics and their management running off all the women who went to Hunger Games instead.

The past two years of Wonder Woman comics have been among the best, and least misogynist, ever printed.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 8:31 PM on December 4, 2013


Maybe Marvel could get around to creating Captain Marvel starring Katee Sackhoff and I can just watch that instead.

I literally clapped my hands with joy when I heard the rumors about that.

The past two years of Wonder Woman comics have been among the best, and least misogynist, ever printed.

Yes, but that has taken place well into DC's long-term strategy of em-bro-ening their titles across the board. They've been alienating female readers for years, most recently by turning Harley Quinn into a psychotic pole dancer with a giant mallet who likes to fuck her a bad guy after the job.

It's not exactly puzzling why the type of audience they're courting wouldn't go for the least-sexualized and least-likely-to-be-raped female character among their properties.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:42 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


The current run of wonder woman is well written, sure, but it has gone out of its way to portray all women besides Diana as fickle, evil, dead or some combination of the three.

I mean, it turned all the amazons into rapists and murderers. Because somehow that is more believable in a world where the Greek Pantheon is wandering around than a Greek Goddess being responsible.

Not to mention the weird sold as a bride to hades storyline.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:43 PM on December 4, 2013


perhaps the studios are a little gun shy after Elektra, Catwoman, Ultraviolet, and Aeon Flux.

I won't speak for the rest but Aeon Flux was really about Peter Chung more than anything else. Blaming the Aeon Flux movie on female heroes is like remaking Psycho without Hitchcock and saying people don't like movies with psycho killers.
posted by RobotHero at 8:45 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Another reason why Wonder Woman (the comic) isn't exactly a bestseller: Azzarello has been publicly at odds with DC over the direction of the character for quite a while now. I can't imagine that's helping DC decide to push Wonder Woman to the forefront.

(I don't always enjoy the direction Azzarello has been taking, but I do enjoy his incredible bitterness when talking about DC's plans)
posted by dinty_moore at 8:51 PM on December 4, 2013


Joseph Gordon Levitt wouldn't have worked as Thor. Justin Bieber wouldn't have worked as Captain America. When discussing casting choices for comic book characters that are supposed to be superhuman beings, appearance matters. Wonder Woman is supposed to be an Amazon. That implies a certain physical presence: more Lucy Lawless, less Anne Hathaway. And yes, a type of sex appeal is a part of it, as it is for all comic book movies at least since Thor. Both Chris Hensworth and Chris Evans are extremely appealing to female audience members in their respective roles. I suspect neither movie would do as well if Marvel were less intelligent in their casting and their decision to foreground the sex appeal of their male leads.
posted by eagles123 at 8:51 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Re: female lead superhero movies - perhaps the studios are a little gun shy after Elektra, Catwoman, Ultraviolet, and Aeon Flux.

Hollywood being Hollywood it really would be utterly alien to them to note that those were all awful movies.
posted by Artw at 8:53 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Or how many superhero movies starring men have flopped in the past twenty years... or even the past two.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:55 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Just Daredevil really, but nobody would be dumb enough to cast Benn Affleck in another super hero movie.
posted by eagles123 at 8:59 PM on December 4, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yes, but that has taken place well into DC's long-term strategy of em-bro-ening their titles across the board. They've been alienating female readers for years, most recently by turning Harley Quinn into a psychotic pole dancer with a giant mallet who likes to fuck her a bad guy after the job.

Bingo. And even if Wonder Woman's own book is fine (for a while, until they throw out the current creative team or the team gets tired of whatever bullshit DC management is pulling), the character will still be dragged through whatever giant crossover is going this year, and be treated like crap there. I don't trust DC not to screw it up, and I don't trust Snyder and whoever is writing this movie not to screw up either. And I certainly don't trust anything DC's management has a hand in to be done with any kind of respect for female characters or female fans.
posted by immlass at 9:00 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Let's not forget that her book is only one of the titles Wonder Woman is actually in, and the others are...not quite up to that standard. To put it mildly.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:03 PM on December 4, 2013


WidgetAlley: "I think that, by and large, male audiences are probably a little less likely to go see a superhero movie starring a woman"

I don't disagree with your assessment of the situation as piles of sexism but... you're telling me that male audiences, whose mental image of Wonder Woman consists of: a literal greek goddess in hotpants and a bustier, would not be interested in a movie where this goddess ties dudes up with a lasso?

Is this some kind of bizzaro world sexism you're talking about?
posted by danny the boy at 9:06 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I would love it if they worked in "not half as surprised as the invisible man" in the dialogue somehow
posted by Renoroc at 9:11 PM on December 4, 2013


Joseph Gordon Levitt wouldn't have worked as Thor.

I.... I would pay so much money to see that film. I would also like to suggest remaking every other Marvel movie starring Joseph Gordon Levitt as every single character. He could probably do a pretty good job, too.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the situation as piles of sexism but... you're telling me that male audiences, whose mental image of Wonder Woman consists of: a literal greek goddess in hotpants and a bustier, would not be interested in a movie where this goddess ties dudes up with a lasso?

Ha! Oh yeah, I didn't think about that. Good point. In my head, Wonder Woman is much less sexualized than Marvel would likely make her, and so I forgot about that particular selling point. Honestly, maybe this is a Betrayal of My Values, but I'm even okay with Wonder Woman being super-sexy in the stereotypically male-gaze-y kind of way, if she could just manage to get her own flick.

(Katee Sackhoff as Captain Marvel? Be still my heart.)
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:25 PM on December 4, 2013


Joseph Gordon Levitt would probably more comfortably fit most peoples' of image a super hero like Spiderman. I'm not sure about Justin Bieber.
posted by eagles123 at 9:34 PM on December 4, 2013


Wow this is a strange thread.

Gina Carano is a terrible actress, which is why she's gotten exactly two roles since HAYWIRE.

Gal Gadot is a fantastic actress with the ability to carry a press tour and a franchise on her back. Stop google image searching and go watch her in a movie. We're talking about a series of movies with the potential to do billions of dollars. You do not cast someone in that part who you do not wholly and completely believe in. Gal Gadot knows her way around a film set, a photo shoot, and an interview desk. These are the crucial elements to being a franchise film star.

I don't know why I am ever surprised when people just fixate on an actress's body and how they do or do not conform to whatever concept they have of a character, but guys - IT'S HOLLYWOOD. THEY DO THIS KIND OF STUFF FOR A LIVING. SHE WILL LOOK THE PART.

Also, when are we going to stop complaining about movies that haven't even been made yet?

The next person who complains about Sandra Bullock in GRAVITY gets the gas face.
posted by incessant at 9:36 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Let's all just pretend the DC cinematic universe no longer exists. Then, we can just enjoy Arrow and hopefully the upcoming tv version of The Flash.

I wish DC would just give up on movies and take over tv instead.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:37 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


Yes, because Hollywood has never made a disastrously bad big budget super hero movie. Especially never involving Batman.
posted by eagles123 at 9:57 PM on December 4, 2013


If you're looking for high art, superhero movies are not where you should be spending your time.
posted by incessant at 10:05 PM on December 4, 2013


All y'all in this thread with the ideas for the movie that they should have made: set up a kickstarter, write a script, make that movie. I will pledge money. I don't even care if it's Sweded.

We live in a world with Star Trek fan films where the actors from the shows reprise their roles. Anything is possible.
posted by adamrice at 10:11 PM on December 4, 2013


Exactly. That doesn't mean there isn't an element of craft involved in all aspects though. Do you seriously think Batman and Robin was as successful at entertaining people as the Avengers? I don't even think the people involved with making Batman and Robin believe that. Part of the craft is a certain fidelity to the source material in translating it to the screen. After all, if you don't try to use what people find appealing in the source material, why make a movie based off of it in the first place? Why not just use something completely original?
posted by eagles123 at 10:11 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


IT'S HOLLYWOOD. THEY DO THIS KIND OF STUFF FOR A LIVING.

Yes. Frequently extremely badly.

when are we going to stop complaining about movies that haven't even been made yet?

When they stop announcing stuff like this in order to get people talking about what they're doing.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 10:20 PM on December 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


[A couple of comments deleted. Guys, if you find people talking/complaining/debating about a film or potential film annoying, best to just skip the thread where that is happening rather than complain that people are discussing in a discussion thread. Thanks.]
posted by taz at 10:36 PM on December 4, 2013 [2 favorites]


This is really kind of insulting. Wonder Woman is in the top four of superheroes as far as name recognition goes, and get's what- a few minutes in a move where she doesn't even get her name on the title.

The thing is, it's not that wonder Woman is difficult to write for- no more difficult than writing Captain America or Thor. Start with Themescrya Island, toss in some Nazis, Steve Trevor, an ultimate threat, and lots of actions scenes. Badda bing badda boom, there's your movie. Call it "Wonder Woman Punches Out Everybody in the DC Universe.

It's not difficulty with the character, but pure sexism. It's well documented that Hollywood is terrified of movies with female leads, believing they can only be used in RomComs. So there's not going to be a Wonder Woman movie, just as there won't be a Black Widow movie. Don't even bother getting your hopes up- if a Wonder Woman movie can't get made, a Black Widow will never get out of the script proposals. Remember, the are wiling to make a fucking HOURMAN TV series before a Woner Woman movie.

And the thing is, even with the limited amount of exposure WW is going to get in it, if the Snyderman movie tanks, it won't be blamed on the directing or writing or acting, it will all be te fault of Wonder Woman, and the studios will bury the idea of a WW even harder than it already is.
posted by happyroach at 11:00 PM on December 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


Like so few in this thread, I enjoy all Zack's movies (even Sucker Punch), until Man Of Steel, which may be worse than Superman IV: The Quest For Peace, I am not sure, as I avoided that one.

But the decision to include Diana in this film is a bad one. Actually, the idea to include Batman was bad, and now Diana? Everything I have heard is that the rejected Amazon pilot was awful (but not as bad as the Wonder Woman pilot of recent years).

She's a character with history that everyone knows. I know she's different in her own books in New 52 (and different again in JLA), but there's a vibe about her people know and love. She deserves to stand on her own. And I'm not even a WW fan. I'm still not sure why Black Widow is in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (over, say, WASP), and I don't particularly care about a Wonder Woman film, or any female fronted film. It's not really an issue with me. I saw Hunger Games and Amalie. (#FeministCred)

But, if it is okay, I will see it. I have $100 on my desk right now for a Katee Sackoff Captain Marvel based purely on what little I have read.

I just don't trust David Goyer to give us a good Wonder Woman. Or even Suicide Squad. And I don't think she's treated well by being in a team-up film.

Here I would repeat what my learned colleges have said above: Marvel is going to get Rocket Racoon on screen before DC can get a female-led movie. But I am reminded of the mid-credit scene from Thor 2, and I think it is best to be silent.
But, if Marvel can give a talking tree more lines than Diana.... you know where the pitchforks are.
posted by Mezentian at 2:52 AM on December 5, 2013


Superman IV: The Quest For Peace

Unrelated, but I *think* this may be the first and perhaps only movie I've gone to see with my in-laws.

I should have taken that as the warning the Universe intended, which in retrospect, is now crystal clear.

Echoing that Katee Sackoff/Captain Marvel gushing, too.
posted by mikelieman at 3:35 AM on December 5, 2013


And again, you want to fix Wonder Woman? You call Timm and Dini and ask them where they want the dumptrucks full of money to be driven to.
posted by mikelieman at 3:36 AM on December 5, 2013 [5 favorites]


> I'm not sure it matters really how much muscle she has since she is a goddess and all

Visible muscles don't have much to do with superhero cred for me either. Like there's any amount of muscle that would make you able to pick up a car and fly away with it.

Admittedly a superhero shouldn't be built like a potato but that has nothing to do with superherodom. People cast as Blackbeard or Lady Jane Gray shouldn't be built like potatos either. It's just something expected of movie leads, super or not.

N.b. Long time WW fan here. Whoever makes it, I hope it's a good movie and WW has a big part.
posted by jfuller at 3:48 AM on December 5, 2013


Remember, the are wiling to make a fucking HOURMAN TV series before a Woner Woman movie.

It's worth noting that there has been a Wonder Woman TV show.
posted by JHarris at 3:59 AM on December 5, 2013


It's worth noting that there has been a Wonder Woman TV show.

And there was a Batman show. Once.

And HOURMAN sounds more like Dial H For Hero.
posted by Mezentian at 4:10 AM on December 5, 2013


Lots of actors are tiny. Never stopped Tom Cruise from playing hero, I don't know why it should be a factor for Wonder Woman.

Yes, he was especially convincing playing the 6'5" 300# Jack Reacher. Amazing how he pulled that off.
posted by octothorpe at 4:11 AM on December 5, 2013


Also, HOURMAN?

Why would you not make Sandman Mystery Theatre?

WHY?
posted by Mezentian at 4:13 AM on December 5, 2013 [2 favorites]


Also, gravity, a female fronted thriller, made huuuuuge bank.

I see this more as: Sandra Bullock gonna Sandra Bullock.
I believe the main character in Gravity was not Sandra Bullock but rather the special effects.
The main character in Gravity was tension.



Aaaaargh for pete's sake. I used to work in development for a Major Hollywood Studio and this happened every. Single. Time. If a female-led film is a success, it's a fluke. If it tanks, it means nobody wants to see a picture with a woman. This fall we had Gravity, Hunger Games, and Frozen setting various records (the last two and possibly all with more than 50% female audience share) and I guarantee you in some office somewhere some exec is saying, gosh we'd just LOVE to do more female leads but we just CAN'T because box office.

These are the top-grossing films of the 1930s. People love movies. They want to see movies that take them away to an exciting fantasy. That includes female people.
posted by Erasmouse at 5:00 AM on December 5, 2013 [14 favorites]


And again, you want to fix Wonder Woman? You call Timm and Dini and ask them where they want the dumptrucks full of money to be driven to.

This is pretty much my go to solution for anything DC related.
posted by Artw at 6:03 AM on December 5, 2013 [3 favorites]


With the possible exception of Zatanna.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:16 AM on December 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


What ArtW says.
Which is why DC is drowning in a pool of suck.
And explains those Nolan movies.

Seriously, I just got finished watching Arrow (which I love, and expected to hate), and the truck scene? Better than the tired, laboured crap served up in whichever of Nolan's badmovies. It was short, sharp and shiney.

I mean, aside from Felicity's boob-window dress it was perfect.
(but, i recognise that the people behind Arrow were behind Smallville, which had issues.)

But Timm and Dini is so obvious. And hasn't one of them done live action lately?
posted by Mezentian at 6:20 AM on December 5, 2013


The disconnect between DC's great, on target, rarely disappointing animated incarnations and the live action stuff is just so confusing.
posted by The Whelk at 6:22 AM on December 5, 2013 [7 favorites]


My HOPE is that they're testing the waters for a WW-led sequel. And OF COURSE I'm hoping that the actress works out; I'm a HUGE WW fan since preschool days, and if she can achieve the same kind of mass-market clout Batman has, and do it in a believable, non-pandering manner, I'll be a happy little Monster indeed.

But all this business of "You're not allowed to discuss any possible potential flaws of a movie until it's released?" I can't get behind that sort of thing. They release information about upcoming titles because THEY WANT PEOPLE TO DISCUSS IT. That means the good, the bad, and the ugly. Anything less is socially imposed self-censorship. Nobody's being told what awful people they are for having doubts about Zack Snyder.

The only people under any obligation to say nothing but, "This movie is going to be wonderful in every way and you all should go see it!" and keep their lips firmly sealed on any other opinions are people contractually required to do so by their employers. The rest of us, as long as we do so in a thoughtful, respectful, and critical* way, should be free to discuss what we see as potential pitfalls.

Do we REALLY need to spell out each and every time that, "While my sincere hope is that the people making the movie overcome this potential pitfall, my experience as a moviegoer has shown me that, as often as not, this sort of thing goes overlooked, leading to an inferior result?"

*By "critical," I mean "criticism" as in the art of analysis and evaluation.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:24 AM on December 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


My HOPE is that they're testing the waters for a WW-led sequel.

Oh, that is a nice way to frame it.
I think it is accurate to say that if Steely Man Vs BatDude does well, and the character of Diana tracks well, you will get a WW movie.
But since Man of Steel couldn't manage one character, I'd be hoping Diana gets a decent director over, say, Harald Zwart.
posted by Mezentian at 6:29 AM on December 5, 2013


The disconnect between DC's great, on target, rarely disappointing animated incarnations and the live action stuff is just so confusing.

The Sims articles I linked to address this a little. DC saw Marvel stealing their market share in the 60s and 70s by aiming itself to an older audience, they got jealous, and this jealousy caused them to become embarrassed of being for kids. They tried going grim and gritty, found huge success in the 80s by doing this, and they now are unwilling to do anything in their main line that isn't grim and gritty, even though characters like Superman can't support that kind of seriousness. The animated stuff is considered spin-off material for an audience that they don't want to consider their main audience.
posted by painquale at 6:31 AM on December 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


I will keep pushing for a Mister E movie or miniseries with Ray Wise until they bury me. Come on, internet, make it happen!
posted by Iosephus at 7:38 AM on December 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Sucker Punch reviewed by Mark Kermode

I find it quite hard now to read 'Zack Snyder' now and not sub-vocalyse it the way Kermode says it

FWIW I actually liked Gardot in Haywire and think she could probably, under ideal circumstances, do a pretty decent Wonder Woman but Snyder is going to Snyderise it
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:57 AM on December 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


Gal Gadot wasn't in Haywire. That was Gina Carano (Who was also in Fast 6).
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:09 AM on December 5, 2013


Gal Gadot wasn't in Haywire.

Damn you, dyslexia! *does that comicy fist raised arm bent shouty pose*
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:21 AM on December 5, 2013


I think based on the last Superman, I can already imagine the product placement:

-Wonder Woman getting knocked into a Fage - Greek Yogurt Truck
-Batman pulling a space gray iPhone out of his belt to use as a tracking device (complete with tasteful shot of the Apple logo from behind)
-The Wonder Woman make-up tie in (like the Hunger games one, previously)
-Or something like this:
Assistant over Intercom: Mr. Luthor, there are some women from...the Amazon here to see you.
Lex: Amazon.com? I already told them I'm only interested in their delivery drones IF they have lasers installed on them!
posted by FJT at 11:33 AM on December 5, 2013


I'm still aghast that Zack Snyder was made the director of Wonder Woman. Did whatever idjit's in charge of DC's film properties see Sucker Punch and think yes, more of this please?

I mean I know that's the cloud that's hung heavy over this entire thread (I mean it's even the title). But really. What were they thinking?

It's like when a director names his movie ATTACK OF THE THE EYE CREATURES. The only conclusion you can make is, you see, they just didn't care.
posted by JHarris at 1:03 PM on December 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


For me, Watchmen died *because* of his attention to detail. He had such a fetish for recreating the comic book just so that he neglected to worry about making a good MOVIE.

Frankly, I'm going to blame the victim here and say the fans are partly at fault. For years, comic book and video game fans have suffered faithless adaptation. Robert Rodriguez goes and make Sin City, huge A-lister ensemble cast done entirely in front of green screen, and people absolutely love how it both resembles the comics and follows the storyline. Snyder does and make 300 and repeats that. Watchmen, having languished for years with terrible scriptments leaking out, finally gets made by an avid fan, and it gets castigated for being too faithful.

That, and people kept punching through walls for some reason. They're just human, Zack! Not superpowered! That was the entire point!

They were in the projects, weren't they? Weak walls.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:00 PM on December 5, 2013


Okay, now I thought more about the "Monkey's Paw" thing and I'm imagining a genie appearing and saying, "Oh, you'll get your Wonder Woman movie, all right. But three things: 1) She can't wear the tiara and bracelets. 2) She can't use the lasso 3) She fights a giant spider in the third act," and then he laughs maniacally.
posted by RobotHero at 3:52 PM on December 5, 2013 [5 favorites]


Okay, fine, I'm watching Haywire now. I might watch Sound of Music after.
posted by Pronoiac at 6:41 PM on December 5, 2013


Watchmen, having languished for years with terrible scriptments leaking out, finally gets made by an avid fan, and it gets castigated for being too faithful.

Frankly, whoever made Watchmen was going to lose one way or the other - too faithful, not faithful enough. It was impossible to translate wholly to the big screen; some appreciate the cuts that were made ("it's faithful to the intent of the book") and some hated their favourite parts were gone ("Zack Snyder fucked it with its pants on").

But there is such a thing as too faithful when translating from one medium to another. And when people pour over a graphic novel for 25 years and then see it in moving form, even when it's almost the same, it's not exactly the same. And the two mediums can use their visuals in completely different ways. What's missing between the panels isn't always more movement, sometimes it's stillness or something that's hidden.

I think Snyder is a hack and Watchmen is his best film, but it does suffer from both recreating panels to the nth degree - forgetting that he wasn't just shooting panels, he was making a film - and trying to impose his own "creativity" - and we end up with a sex scene scored by "Hallelujah" or (because why be subtle) the opening titles scored by "The Times They Are A-Changin".
posted by crossoverman at 7:13 PM on December 5, 2013


Although even with that handicap, the opening was still pretty darned impressive.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:18 PM on December 5, 2013 [4 favorites]


That's actually the only bit I enjoyed.
posted by Artw at 7:19 PM on December 5, 2013


Heh. One of the cops in Haywire just called Mallory "Wonder Woman."
posted by Pronoiac at 7:27 PM on December 5, 2013 [1 favorite]


I wonder if there have been other adaptations panned by fans for being too faithful.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:56 PM on December 5, 2013


IIRC, people weren't all that happy with the mid 80's Martian Chronicles... Or maybe just me... I dunno... It could have been me... I have this vague recollection of it striking me as a McMillian and Wife crossover or something.

Yeah. Let's go with 'just me..' on this in retrospect.
posted by mikelieman at 10:21 PM on December 5, 2013


/me reads relevant wikipedia entry...

Wow, yeah.. I am way off... 'faithful' not.
posted by mikelieman at 10:23 PM on December 5, 2013


I would like to go on record as a fan of both the graphic novels and the movie versions of Watchmen.

The latter has its flaws, certainly, but getting a movie made is an endless series of compromises, even with the best will in the world. The form has its limitations, and other limitations are imposed by the business model.

I consider them two different animals. Maybe it helps that my interest in the GN was more, well, I hate to use the word "casual," because it went deeper than that, but it didn't strike the same fundamental, worldview-informing chord that it seems to have done for a lot of other fans. It was obviously a great and seminal work in its genre, but it didn't hit me in the gut the way some other books did.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:33 AM on December 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Oh, you'll get your Wonder Woman movie, all right. But three things: 1) She can't wear the tiara and bracelets. 2) She can't use the lasso 3) She fights a giant spider in the third act

I think they could do a version of Wonder Woman without her tiara, bracelets, or lasso. They're just inessential accoutrements. Actually, I think the lasso in particular should probably go. It's a little silly, like her invisible plane, and would not translate well into live action. There's a reason you don't see lassos in action movies... the physics of them don't make much sense. A lot of recent versions of Wonder Woman have given her a sword and shield, and I think those work better as symbols for an amazon warrior princess than a piece of cowboy paraphernalia.

Also, Wonder Woman's lasso has its origins in bondage imagery, and you know that Zach Snyder is going to play up that imagery if he keeps the lasso.
posted by painquale at 11:14 AM on December 6, 2013


Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if DC had Azzarello seed the sword and shield (that come from her bracelets) in the comics as preparation for the movie.
posted by painquale at 11:16 AM on December 6, 2013


There's a reason you don't see lassos in action movies... the physics of them don't make much sense.

Not to nitpick or suggest that I think the magic lasso is a great idea or anything, but actual cowboys use actual lassos quite effectively, and the physics somehow actually do work. As for movies, there are some pretty great lasso scenes in some pretty great movies - Silverado, for example, has a pretty brutal and realistic lasso scene. The reason you don't see them in action movies very often is not that the physics don't make sense, but because cowboy action movies aren't really all that popular anymore.
posted by The World Famous at 11:44 AM on December 6, 2013


You could tweak the lasso into an Indy-style bullwhip-used-as-lasso. You won't find too many people arguing that that doesn't work onscreen.

If we're going to modify her look, we could give her costume sleeves and legs like Batman's and Superman's, and then the actor's natural physique wouldn't matter, but I suppose that's just crazytalk.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:23 PM on December 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


actual cowboys use actual lassos quite effectively, and the physics somehow actually do work.

I meant that they don't make sense within the context of an action movie, though. Lassos have to fall over the steer's head, so you need to be higher than it (on a horse), or toss it up so that it falls back down. In various Wonder Woman media, she always lashes it out like it's a whip, which is what they need to do to make it look dynamic, but which makes very little sense.
posted by painquale at 1:04 PM on December 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Maybe she can jump really high before throwing it out.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:21 PM on December 6, 2013


Maybe she's super tall.
posted by The World Famous at 3:37 PM on December 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Maybe her lasso has bees inside it and when she swings it it shoots bees at you.
posted by mcmile at 4:01 PM on December 6, 2013 [9 favorites]


Maybe it's made of bees. Maybe she's made of bees.
posted by The World Famous at 4:05 PM on December 6, 2013 [3 favorites]


Only Nazis are made of bees.
posted by Artw at 5:25 PM on December 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


Once you start going bees, where does it end? Because it's bees. Once you have bees, things tend to bees quickly. Before long, bees start turning up in surprising bees places. What bees you then? Bees starts bees get bees bees sense. Bees bees bees BEES BEES BEES.

BEEEEEES!
posted by JHarris at 5:26 PM on December 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


The 10 Grossest, Weirdest Reactions to Gal Gadot Being Wonder Woman

I'm not sure these are gross, or weird, but most of them have popped up here.
posted by Mezentian at 5:45 PM on December 6, 2013


The 10 Grossest, Weirdest Reactions to Gal Gadot Being Wonder Woman

I don't see "she's not actually made of bees" on the list. Fail.
posted by The World Famous at 6:31 PM on December 6, 2013 [4 favorites]


There is the "but she's not actually a living statue" argument to make.
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 PM on December 6, 2013


But the Lasso of Truth can be terrifying, in the right hands. I mean, talk about your psychological warfare. Do you really want Wonder Woman knowing your deepest darkest secrets?
posted by dogheart at 6:46 PM on December 6, 2013


She could revolutionize CIA torture rooms overnight!
posted by The Whelk at 6:47 PM on December 6, 2013 [1 favorite]


Gotta be more humane than waterboarding, amirite?
posted by dogheart at 6:50 PM on December 6, 2013




Sonia Harris from Comics Should Be Good (she's the resident angry feminist there when required, which is shockingly often) has actually written a few good articles on women superheros:
9 Arguments for a Female Superhero Movie
Perez’ Wonder Woman – The Gold Standard
Porn & Wonder Woman’s Pants
the Fallacy of Superheroes for Boys & Fantasy for Girls
Catwoman (The Dark Knight Rises Blu-Ray)
posted by Mezentian at 8:36 PM on December 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think they could do a version of Wonder Woman without her tiara, bracelets, or lasso.

You'd be right. They did. It didn't last (I seem to recall she seemed to have a stereotypical mentor, Chang). Like her job at Taco Bell.

I can't find the CSBG article I was looking for sadly, but in my searches I found these musings:
Batman Vs. Superman: Five Reasons Against Wonder Woman Appearing
What is holding up the Wonder Woman Movie?, which reminds us of that time DC told Joss to basically fuck off, because what would he know about writing popular arse-kicking women or superheroes?
Why is it so Hard to Get a Wonder Woman Movie?
posted by Mezentian at 8:45 PM on December 6, 2013


That "Porn & Wonder Woman's Pants" article is remarkable because absolutely everyone would call Zack Snyder a sexist scumbag if he made that exact argument. Seriously, can you imagine the (rightful) shitstorm if Wonder Woman showed up looking just like the pictured pornstar and he responded to criticisms with "No guys, really, she needs to be as naked as possible because that's what's recognizable, even if it's completely impractical!"
posted by IAmUnaware at 9:21 PM on December 6, 2013


However (a) Snyder is a man and always wrong, (b) Snyder made Suckerpunch and (c) the sad fact is that the porn version is the "better" costume (in that photo) if you are chasing iconic, which the pron films seem to do, but probably because the costumes don't stay on that long.

Although, personally, I prefer the Twilight of the Gods style roman skirt version (and pants).
posted by Mezentian at 7:35 AM on December 7, 2013


Come to think of it, after Heath Ledger was cast as the Joker, and his subsequent martyrdom and performance, there really is no good case for criticizing unlikely, unorthodox casting choices for superhero movies, unless they were race-bending or something. Quality actors in unexpected roles is just fertile room for them to surprise audiences drastically. So I say, bring on Gal Gadot Wonder Woman! And Ben Affleck Batman! And Paul Giamatti Rhino! (And Donald Glover Spider-man....)
posted by Apocryphon at 11:03 AM on December 7, 2013


Maybe it's made of bees. Maybe she's made of bees.

Wonder Woman vs. Candyman.
posted by homunculus at 11:05 AM on December 7, 2013


But the Lasso of Truth can be terrifying, in the right hands. I mean, talk about your psychological warfare. Do you really want Wonder Woman knowing your deepest darkest secrets?

I remember a tumblr post that asserted that the only reason Lois Lane would ever be jealous of Wonder Woman was because of that goddamn lasso. C'MON DIANA YOU AREN'T EVEN USING IT FOR ANYTHING THINK OF THE STORIES I COULD GET.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:09 PM on December 7, 2013 [1 favorite]


I was talking to Zack today, the take-away quote was "Yeah, I was going to tweet that I'm casting Justin Bieber as Holly Robinson in the movie..."

He thought better of it.
posted by HuronBob at 2:15 PM on December 8, 2013 [1 favorite]




WHEN will I ever learn to NEVER read the comments ( on that Amy Adams link... )

Sheesh /me reaches for the eyebleach...
posted by mikelieman at 3:53 AM on December 10, 2013


I've got a new respect for Amy Adams now; I've never really had any kind of strong impressions about her one way or the other as an actress or a person, but I think she handled that really well.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:22 AM on December 10, 2013


eagles123: "Joseph Gordon Levitt wouldn't have worked as Thor. Justin Bieber wouldn't have worked as Captain America. When discussing casting choices for comic book characters that are supposed to be superhuman beings, appearance matters. Wonder Woman is supposed to be an Amazon. That implies a certain physical presence: more Lucy Lawless, less Anne Hathaway. And yes, a type of sex appeal is a part of it, as it is for all comic book movies at least since Thor. Both Chris Hensworth and Chris Evans are extremely appealing to female audience members in their respective roles. I suspect neither movie would do as well if Marvel were less intelligent in their casting and their decision to foreground the sex appeal of their male leads."

Sorry, Chris Evans is not JUST attractive to women, you know.
posted by Samizdata at 8:40 PM on December 15, 2013


Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish: "Let's not forget that her book is only one of the titles Wonder Woman is actually in, and the others are...not quite up to that standard. To put it mildly."

Isn't that pretty much the way comics ALWAYS work?
posted by Samizdata at 8:41 PM on December 15, 2013


RobotHero: "Okay, now I thought more about the "Monkey's Paw" thing and I'm imagining a genie appearing and saying, "Oh, you'll get your Wonder Woman movie, all right. But three things: 1) She can't wear the tiara and bracelets. 2) She can't use the lasso 3) She fights a giant spider in the third act," and then he laughs maniacally."

And 4] Steve Trevor is gone, replaced by a sassy, gay robot sidekick.
posted by Samizdata at 8:49 PM on December 15, 2013 [1 favorite]


Just one more remove away, and Diana Prince is riding along with Luke Skywalker attacking the Death Star.
posted by JHarris at 11:47 PM on December 15, 2013


Gal Gadot responds to all that (unnecessary) Wonder Woman hate.

A notable link because she does kinda look like Diana is the glam shot they picked and, sorry world, a journalist in Israel actually (so the translation claims) asked this question:
"It’s been said that you’re too skinny for the part. Wonder Woman is large-breasted, is that going to change?"

Her answer is pretty kick arse though.
posted by Mezentian at 2:23 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I just want to add (having finished Mockingjay and Continuum recently) I am not sure who all these peiople are who don't want Strong Action ChicksTM.
posted by Mezentian at 6:38 AM on December 27, 2013


Hmm, I've never really equated "doubt" with "hate" in my mind before.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:18 AM on December 27, 2013


I just want to add (having finished Mockingjay and Continuum recently) I am not sure who all these peiople are who don't want Strong Action ChicksTM.

Marketing people don't want them because they don't know who to sell the toys to.
posted by crossoverman at 2:32 PM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


Hmm, I've never really equated "doubt" with "hate" in my mind before.

I think there are probably certain parts of the Internerds where the hate flowed freely, just as it did when Affleck was cast as Batman.
posted by Mezentian at 4:14 PM on December 27, 2013


I may not be their target audience, but IMO any old John Q. Actor can play Batman. The suit covers everything but your mouth, and does the lion’s share of the work. It could be a stunt performer in there 95% of the time for all I know. In the history of Batman in feature films, there have been about two and a half scripts that called for a Bruce Wayne who needs to do more than hang around being a brooding blank canvas for the audience to project onto, and most competent actors can do that.

I've always considered Affleck better at comedy than drama, but I didn't bat an eyelash at that casting news. He's tall, handsome, and not staggeringly incompetent at his craft, and, unless there's something truly revolutionary about the script, that's all you really need for the part.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:54 AM on December 29, 2013


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