...and I hear the Union Jack's to remain
December 18, 2013 3:49 PM Subscribe
If the drive for Scottish independence succeeds, what should be done about the Union Jack?
Staring at that one for more than 5 seconds seems to induce a migraine aura.
posted by elizardbits at 3:55 PM on December 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 3:55 PM on December 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
Respectfully those are all terrible.
posted by 2bucksplus at 3:57 PM on December 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by 2bucksplus at 3:57 PM on December 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Respectfully those are all terrible.
They're symbols of nationalism so that's perfectly appropriate.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:59 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
They're symbols of nationalism so that's perfectly appropriate.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:59 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm sure the one that looks like a blend with Germany's flag would be really popular.
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:00 PM on December 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 4:00 PM on December 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Why not keep it the same and just conveniently forget what all the various stripey bits technically are supposed to stand for?
posted by Sara C. at 4:01 PM on December 18, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 4:01 PM on December 18, 2013 [8 favorites]
Good luck to the separatists but I don't imagine this will come to pass. If it does, may Canada be next.
posted by Evstar at 4:04 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by Evstar at 4:04 PM on December 18, 2013
"The blue bits mean water now. Cause we're a bunch of islands. Done."
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:06 PM on December 18, 2013 [16 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:06 PM on December 18, 2013 [16 favorites]
We should just get rid of the flag entirely and replace it with a weathervane.
posted by dng at 4:10 PM on December 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by dng at 4:10 PM on December 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
Also, the consensus among the Scots I know seems to be that they support the movement on principle, but economically it would be very unwise to split at this time. They will be voting against independence almost unanimously. (Girlfriend is Scottish. Sample size is small and includes her friends and family)
I would love to get the perspectives of any Scottish mefites in the room.
posted by Evstar at 4:10 PM on December 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I would love to get the perspectives of any Scottish mefites in the room.
posted by Evstar at 4:10 PM on December 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Just imagine how many Commonwealth countries' flags would be ruined by the one at the top.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 4:13 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 4:13 PM on December 18, 2013
The first one - the red, yellow and black one would have interesting connotations in Australia. As we continue our on-again off-again public debate about becoming a republic there is the attendant discussion of whether we should change our flag and what it should be. One of the suggestions is to include a reference to the Aboriginal flag - for obvious reasons.
The colours of the Aboriginal flag are red, yellow and black so in the extraordinarily unlikely sequence of events that the British flag turned red, yellow and black and we update our flag to replace the Union Jack with the new flag, we'd be quite close to a flag that would make a good flag for a Republic of Australia.
When we become a republic, we just drop in the Aboriginal flag and we're done!
posted by citizenoftheworld at 4:14 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The colours of the Aboriginal flag are red, yellow and black so in the extraordinarily unlikely sequence of events that the British flag turned red, yellow and black and we update our flag to replace the Union Jack with the new flag, we'd be quite close to a flag that would make a good flag for a Republic of Australia.
When we become a republic, we just drop in the Aboriginal flag and we're done!
posted by citizenoftheworld at 4:14 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
We should just get rid of the flag entirely and replace it with a weathervane.
I read this as a wolverine and found myself nodding my head in agreement.
posted by 2bucksplus at 4:16 PM on December 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
I read this as a wolverine and found myself nodding my head in agreement.
posted by 2bucksplus at 4:16 PM on December 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Hawaii still incorporates it into their state flag, for reasons which have essentially nothing to do with its brief occupation by Britain.
But given Britain's obsession with getting heraldry right, it seems unlikely that they'll let theirs stand without the cover of some kind of authenticity. Scotland retaining the Queen as head of state would probably suffice for that.
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:18 PM on December 18, 2013
But given Britain's obsession with getting heraldry right, it seems unlikely that they'll let theirs stand without the cover of some kind of authenticity. Scotland retaining the Queen as head of state would probably suffice for that.
posted by George_Spiggott at 4:18 PM on December 18, 2013
2bucksplus, that would also work quite well for Australia. We'd be happy to have Hugh Jackman on our flag! And no need to change it when we become a republic.
I'm beginning to enjoy this. Feel free to tell me to stop if I'm derailling.
posted by citizenoftheworld at 4:19 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm beginning to enjoy this. Feel free to tell me to stop if I'm derailling.
posted by citizenoftheworld at 4:19 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sigh, it's Union Flag.... a jack is only flown from a ship (bollocks to wikipedia on that regard)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:19 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:19 PM on December 18, 2013
The red on black made me think of another candidate.
posted by ckape at 4:20 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ckape at 4:20 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well you could change it for the flags of your rulers, the Mountbatten-Windsors.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 4:22 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 4:22 PM on December 18, 2013
To be fair, the Commonwealth countries' flags are already ruined by the weird thing in the upper left corner.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 4:24 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 4:24 PM on December 18, 2013
fearfulsymmetry: "Sigh, it's Union Flag.... a jack is only flown from a ship (bollocks to wikipedia on that regard)"
From the article:
From the article:
BBC house style on union jackposted by Chrysostom at 4:28 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Union jack, lower case, is the term we use for the UK flag formed by combining the crosses of St George, St Andrew and St Patrick. (The proper term, "union flag", carries potential for confusion - especially in the context of EU stories). However, where there are local political sensitivities, as in Northern Ireland, union flag is acceptable.
Will be still able to team up with Captain Britain?
posted by happyroach at 4:32 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by happyroach at 4:32 PM on December 18, 2013
The problem with Scotland rejecting independence is that most Scots are pro-EU, whereas a year later they may find themselves dragged out of the EU by the UKIP-supporting southerners. And even if not, there is a case that, in the absence of a Devo Max option, a no vote will not just be a rejection of independence for now but a vote of no confidence in devolution, with those parts of Scotland which are independent (the unprivatised NHS, the education system, and so on) being taken back by Westminster and harmonised with the rest of the UK. Tory neoliberal dystopia, here we all come.
posted by acb at 4:46 PM on December 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by acb at 4:46 PM on December 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
As long as it's not flown upside-down
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:47 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:47 PM on December 18, 2013
Crosses are for Christians. And little squiggly elements that can only be distinguished up close have no place on a flag meant to be distinguished from a distance.
It needs some plain fields in a simple pattern. Maybe the usual three fields, with light blue on top for sky, dark blue on the bottom for water, and a green field in the middle for land. Has anyone used that already?
posted by pracowity at 4:51 PM on December 18, 2013
It needs some plain fields in a simple pattern. Maybe the usual three fields, with light blue on top for sky, dark blue on the bottom for water, and a green field in the middle for land. Has anyone used that already?
posted by pracowity at 4:51 PM on December 18, 2013
The third (above) is a more modern interpretation of the design, including the colours of St David's flag and retaining the Scottish blue - to reflect the fact that Scotland would continue to share the British monarchy.Not necessarily.
posted by Flunkie at 4:52 PM on December 18, 2013
Also, the consensus among the Scots I know seems to be that they support the movement on principle, but economically it would be very unwise to split at this time. They will be voting against independence almost unanimously.
It's exactly the mindset of seeing lots of good reasons for independence, but basing the critical decision on how economically comfortable the union might be right at this moment, that dragged Scotland into the U.K. in the first place.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:10 PM on December 18, 2013
It's exactly the mindset of seeing lots of good reasons for independence, but basing the critical decision on how economically comfortable the union might be right at this moment, that dragged Scotland into the U.K. in the first place.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:10 PM on December 18, 2013
Crosses are for Christians.
posted by pracowity at 12:51 AM on December 19 [+] [!]
Not necessarily.
posted by Decani at 8:06 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by pracowity at 12:51 AM on December 19 [+] [!]
Not necessarily.
posted by Decani at 8:06 PM on December 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
We'd be happy to have Hugh Jackman on our flag!
There's a lot of that going around!
posted by Anitanola at 8:28 PM on December 18, 2013
There's a lot of that going around!
posted by Anitanola at 8:28 PM on December 18, 2013
Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day. Goddess of austerity on the flag.
posted by humanfont at 9:21 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by humanfont at 9:21 PM on December 18, 2013
That first flag looked like it had jaundice. Not a fan of any of the designs.
posted by arcticseal at 9:40 PM on December 18, 2013
posted by arcticseal at 9:40 PM on December 18, 2013
"Truganini" by Midnight Oil for the post's title. Nice.
posted by snwod at 2:59 AM on December 19, 2013
posted by snwod at 2:59 AM on December 19, 2013
I think all these ideas are far too tame (and also pretty ugly). You don't often get a chance to pick a new flag - go wild with it! Try some new ideas! For example:
- Flag with a rectangular hole in the middle, to represent the inherent emptiness we feel at the loss of Scotland
- St Andrew's Cross, just to confuse everyone
- Venn Diagram explaining exactly what is and is not in the United Kingdom, to stop the stupid arguments once and for all
- Flagship manifesto promise from the party currently in power, so that it's really really obvious when they break it
- Define the flag design as "the entirety of the space covered by this design, plus whatever is one flag's width to the right and one flag's depth below". Means everyone can choose their own flag when flown by itself (because it's undefined), but instantly turns all the flags of Commonwealth countries who still incorporate the Union Jack into infinitely-recursive undrawable nightmares.
This is an unwanted solution to a non-problem, as the SNP made it clear in their White Paper on Scottish independence, published last month, that they are not proposing any change to the Union flag:
So who runs the Flag Institute and why are they so keen to stir up a debate? "Charles has been a commercial flagmaker since 1989 and is founder of the ubiquitous MrFlag retail flag brand." Ah, right.
posted by verstegan at 6:02 AM on December 19, 2013
What will Scotland's flag be and what will happen to the Union Flag?In other words, no one is proposing any change, and this is a spurious debate manufactured by the curiously named Flag Institute, a self-proclaimed body of 'vexillologists' who also seem suspiciously keen on editing their Wikipedia page.
Scotland's national flag will remain the Saltire or Cross of St Andrew. It will be for the rest of the UK to decide what its flag will be. It is possible for the rest of the UK to retain the Union Flag if that is what it wants.
The Union Flag, the first version of which dates from 1606 -- before the political union of 1707 -- could be used in Scotland as people think fit. For example, the Union Flag is flown in some Commonwealth countries along with the country's own national flag.
So who runs the Flag Institute and why are they so keen to stir up a debate? "Charles has been a commercial flagmaker since 1989 and is founder of the ubiquitous MrFlag retail flag brand." Ah, right.
posted by verstegan at 6:02 AM on December 19, 2013
Hey, isn't that really the rUK's problem?
The thing that Project Fear will be really harping on about is: The ratings agency Fitch has warned that plans for an independent Scotland to continue use of the pound would be unstable. Oh noes! The credit rating!!!1!
posted by scruss at 7:04 AM on December 19, 2013
The thing that Project Fear will be really harping on about is: The ratings agency Fitch has warned that plans for an independent Scotland to continue use of the pound would be unstable. Oh noes! The credit rating!!!1!
posted by scruss at 7:04 AM on December 19, 2013
Good luck to the separatists but I don't imagine this will come to pass. If it does, may Canada be next.
I'm fairly certain that Scotland would just have the same status that canada already has.
posted by empath at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2013
I'm fairly certain that Scotland would just have the same status that canada already has.
posted by empath at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2013
So the British monarch would remain head of state?
That's the plan.
posted by andrewesque at 9:48 AM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
That's the plan.
posted by andrewesque at 9:48 AM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
It will be for the rest of the UK to decide what its flag will be. It is possible for the rest of the UK to retain the Union Flag if that is what it wants.
This so sounds like a snotty breakup email.
posted by Sara C. at 9:51 AM on December 19, 2013
This so sounds like a snotty breakup email.
posted by Sara C. at 9:51 AM on December 19, 2013
Scottish resident Mefite: almost everyone I know is voting yes because of not wanting to be dragged into the clusterfuck of a Tory dystopia that the rest of the UK keeps voting for. But I also know a couple of right-wing Nats, who see it as a combination of an issue of self-determination and that national policies set in London for London interests don't serve Scotland (even if they agree with the underlying ideological tenor of them).
And as for the flag - it didn't change when the Republic of Ireland came into being, even though the St Patrick Saltaire is there to represent all of Ireland, not just Northern Ireland.
posted by Coobeastie at 11:31 AM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
And as for the flag - it didn't change when the Republic of Ireland came into being, even though the St Patrick Saltaire is there to represent all of Ireland, not just Northern Ireland.
posted by Coobeastie at 11:31 AM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Possible flag for my proposed Albania-Scotland union.
posted by Flunkie at 6:08 PM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 6:08 PM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
scruss: The thing that Project Fear will be really harping on about is: The ratings agency Fitch has warned that plans for an independent Scotland to continue use of the pound would be unstable. Oh noes! The credit rating!!!1"
There is a special case of Betteridge's Law of headlines that applies to the referendum:
If one should read a headline about independence containing the word "will", one ought to substitute the phrase "could possibly".
If one should read a headline about independence containing the word "might", "may" or "could", one ought to substitute the phrase "definitely won't".
posted by Jakey at 4:03 AM on December 20, 2013
There is a special case of Betteridge's Law of headlines that applies to the referendum:
If one should read a headline about independence containing the word "will", one ought to substitute the phrase "could possibly".
If one should read a headline about independence containing the word "might", "may" or "could", one ought to substitute the phrase "definitely won't".
posted by Jakey at 4:03 AM on December 20, 2013
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