"They just continue to fall into the pattern, so why wouldn't I do it?"
December 26, 2013 10:01 PM Subscribe
Cleveland Scene takes a look at the paranoid and obsessive life of a mid-level bookie.
Interesting. Thanks for posting it.
I had no idea there were such large (percentage wise) differences in spreads being offered. I just figured there was a standard Vegas spread and everybody went with it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:35 PM on December 26, 2013
I had no idea there were such large (percentage wise) differences in spreads being offered. I just figured there was a standard Vegas spread and everybody went with it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:35 PM on December 26, 2013
I wonder how large a customer base they have? It sounds like its large enough that they're having a hard time just staying on top of things and they're taking guys away from other bookies. Unless they're already having to kick up some of their take to already, their immediate threat is other bookies who are affiliate with organized crime who are going to come around upset at all the action these guys are taking away from them, never mind the cops or IRS.
posted by KingEdRa at 12:01 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by KingEdRa at 12:01 AM on December 27, 2013
They make a ten-percent commission on the loser's bet, so they effectively make a five-percent commission on turnover - IF they balance their books. If they get something wrong, or are raided, or robbed, they will need to take in twenty new bets to replace each one that was lost. This seems like a bad business to be in.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:22 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:22 AM on December 27, 2013
I wonder how large a customer base they have?
Somewhere in the range of 50-60. (The article says they started with ten and now have five or six times that.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:39 AM on December 27, 2013
Somewhere in the range of 50-60. (The article says they started with ten and now have five or six times that.)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:39 AM on December 27, 2013
You make it to the edge of the old strip. To those seedy places only the locals come back from. You'll get slightly better lines there. Slightly.
posted by basicchannel at 2:59 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by basicchannel at 2:59 AM on December 27, 2013
Casinos make their slot machines pay out more to get people in, and then they tighten them up a little bit.
Is that actually true?
posted by oneironaut at 4:51 AM on December 27, 2013
Is that actually true?
posted by oneironaut at 4:51 AM on December 27, 2013
The communication these guys use is all culpable. I have never been a bookie or even done any sports betting but the way to run this kind of business is to never meet your bettors. Talk to them on a throw away phone. Use an anonymous ever changing professional cash exhange service. (Money Tree eg;) Never write anything down. Keep your book on an encrypted palm pilot that has no internet capability. Never allow debtors to bet. And always pay out same day.
Do it this way and your take will be small steady and safe. You must have that palm pilot ready for a factory reset within 30 seconds but you never take it with you to the exchange.
As these guys say you only give action to new bettors if they know an old bettor. If the new bettor is a cop he will try to meet you. The old bettors would know to never ask for that. If they ask to meet you you cut them off and every bettor in their line. There is nothing for the feds or cops to chase at that point. The overhead is higher and 5he margins slimmer but if you stay in business you will make money. There are tons of dumb bookies like this out there and they eventually all go out for one reason or another. Your bettors will appreciate you always stay open.
I have never been a bookie or even used one but that is how I would do it.
posted by Colonel Panic at 5:02 AM on December 27, 2013 [15 favorites]
Do it this way and your take will be small steady and safe. You must have that palm pilot ready for a factory reset within 30 seconds but you never take it with you to the exchange.
As these guys say you only give action to new bettors if they know an old bettor. If the new bettor is a cop he will try to meet you. The old bettors would know to never ask for that. If they ask to meet you you cut them off and every bettor in their line. There is nothing for the feds or cops to chase at that point. The overhead is higher and 5he margins slimmer but if you stay in business you will make money. There are tons of dumb bookies like this out there and they eventually all go out for one reason or another. Your bettors will appreciate you always stay open.
I have never been a bookie or even used one but that is how I would do it.
posted by Colonel Panic at 5:02 AM on December 27, 2013 [15 favorites]
This all seems an enormous amount of faff compared to, you know, popping to a betting shop or website and placing a bet.
(Not that gambling in the UK is any less weird for being legal - up until a couple of years ago we had a state-owned gambling operation called, I shit you not, the Horserace Totalisator Board!)
posted by jack_mo at 5:23 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
(Not that gambling in the UK is any less weird for being legal - up until a couple of years ago we had a state-owned gambling operation called, I shit you not, the Horserace Totalisator Board!)
posted by jack_mo at 5:23 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
(Not that gambling in the UK is any less weird for being legal - up until a couple of years ago we had a state-owned gambling operation called, I shit you not, the Horserace Totalisator Board!)
And in Australia, a similar state owned enterprise, the TAB Totalisator Administration (or Agency depending on jurisdiction) Board.
posted by Mario Speedwagon at 5:41 AM on December 27, 2013
And in Australia, a similar state owned enterprise, the TAB Totalisator Administration (or Agency depending on jurisdiction) Board.
posted by Mario Speedwagon at 5:41 AM on December 27, 2013
There are private, illegal bookies all over the UK (and Australia/NZ I would imagine). There are plenty of people who don't want to walk into a high street betting shop to lay their money down. A lot of these people don't want to do that because they literally don't have the money; they are betting money they don't have basically on credit and sinking further into debt while hoping for a win that will clear what they owe. You cannot do that at the Tote.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:45 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 5:45 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, what DarlingBri said. Hell, I lived in Nevada, where most people don't spend an entire day without seeing somewhere that you can place a perfectly legal, above-boards, non-seedy wager on virtually any sporting endeavor. And I knew people who ran a "shop" mostly in their heads who would give you a little better action than the official lines, or extend you a bit of credit when times were a little lean.
There will always be bookies who step a little farther than the law allows, just like there will always be dudes who know where you can get a stereo that fell off the back of a truck.
posted by Etrigan at 5:50 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
There will always be bookies who step a little farther than the law allows, just like there will always be dudes who know where you can get a stereo that fell off the back of a truck.
posted by Etrigan at 5:50 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have never been a bookie or even used one but that is how I would do it.
First, be smart from the very beginning?
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:54 AM on December 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
First, be smart from the very beginning?
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:54 AM on December 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Colonel Panic: "I have never been a bookie or even used one but that is how I would do it."
One of the things that I got out of the article was how important it is for their business to build and maintain a steady base of clients. Your sports book would undoubtedly be a lot safer from prosecution, but who would bet on it? How would you find bettors you don't know? How would you encourage your existing clients to keep making bets?
I think a lot of marginal illegal business rely heavily on face-to-face relationships and pre-existing social networks because while it's possible to make some quick money on the sort of people who would give hundreds of dollars to people they've never met on the promise that their bets would be honored even though if they were scammed those customers would have no ability to use the legal system to get back their money, it's a lot harder to turn those people into a steady stream of income.
posted by Copronymus at 6:03 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
One of the things that I got out of the article was how important it is for their business to build and maintain a steady base of clients. Your sports book would undoubtedly be a lot safer from prosecution, but who would bet on it? How would you find bettors you don't know? How would you encourage your existing clients to keep making bets?
I think a lot of marginal illegal business rely heavily on face-to-face relationships and pre-existing social networks because while it's possible to make some quick money on the sort of people who would give hundreds of dollars to people they've never met on the promise that their bets would be honored even though if they were scammed those customers would have no ability to use the legal system to get back their money, it's a lot harder to turn those people into a steady stream of income.
posted by Copronymus at 6:03 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
The communication these guys use is all culpable. I have never been a bookie or even done any sports betting but the way to run this kind of business is to never meet your bettors. Talk to them on a throw away phone. Use an anonymous ever changing professional cash exhange service. (Money Tree eg;) Never write anything down. Keep your book on an encrypted palm pilot that has no internet capability. Never allow debtors to bet. And always pay out same day.
Hmmm, a palm pilot you say?
posted by nowhere man at 6:03 AM on December 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Hmmm, a palm pilot you say?
posted by nowhere man at 6:03 AM on December 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
"None of them will fucking do it, none of them will call my bluff," he laughs. "If I'm going to move it, call my fucking bluff. And none of them do it. They just continue to fall into the pattern, so why wouldn't I do it?"
And that goes to show you how little gambling addiction has to do with winning the money and how much it has to do with anxiety disorder, of keeping "control" of your life in whatever small ways you can.
posted by xingcat at 6:11 AM on December 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
And that goes to show you how little gambling addiction has to do with winning the money and how much it has to do with anxiety disorder, of keeping "control" of your life in whatever small ways you can.
posted by xingcat at 6:11 AM on December 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
It's all a guessing game based on what he thinks people might decide to bet on and the side they'll pick when it happens.
Isn't this exactly what every bookie everywhere, legal or not, does?
I dunno, this article seems kinda thin. "We're gambling addicts, it was totally fucking up our lives, so we decided to become leeches preying on other gambling addicts. Oh and it ruined our social lives and we live in constant paranoia. The end."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:25 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Isn't this exactly what every bookie everywhere, legal or not, does?
I dunno, this article seems kinda thin. "We're gambling addicts, it was totally fucking up our lives, so we decided to become leeches preying on other gambling addicts. Oh and it ruined our social lives and we live in constant paranoia. The end."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:25 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
It might be a bit thin, but to put the article in some perspective, general legalized gambling in Cleveland is not quite 2 years old. A branch of the Horseshoe opened downtown in May 2012 and the Thistledown horse racetrack in an eastern suburb (horse racing previously being the only kind of legal gambling allowed) was bought by Caesars and just got a major overhaul, adding video gaming and a venue for shows. So Cleveland's still in the process of examining and thinking about gambling, legal or not, and how it affects people and the city and what kind of effect legalized gambling has had on gambling culture in the city.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:48 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by soundguy99 at 6:48 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
To expand my thought: there's a lot of stuff just tossed aside in this article that should be examined. Do these guys have any guilt (or any feelings at all) related to their own gambling addiction and debt, and subsequent enabling of same in others? They were $20K in debt and were unhappy about it. They had a guy $40K in debt to them. Or have they simply ignored all that?
What about their bettors? If the author could find these guys, surely they must have had some contact with the guys (I assume it's mostly guys, maybe that's a stereotype?) who bet with them. What are their stories?
How about the paranoia and destroyed social lives? That's glossed over too. Did the (ex) girlfriend know what he was doing? Her view of the situation would be absolutely fascinating.
A much more interesting article would have included some examination of these issues. Contrasting their addiction and debt with the addiction and debt they're enabling and encouraging in others would have made for a more interesting study.
So would a shred of self-awareness on the part of these dudes. The article didn't even examine that.
I guess what I'm saying here is there's a kernel of a good article here, but it should have been three times longer (something I don't often say, usually the opposite) and provided something more than a totally superficial view of these guys, what they do, how it affects their lives, and the lives they are helping to slowly destroy. (Not saying it's not possible to gamble responsibly as entertainment, but my sense is that the majority of people going to shady bookies are not responsible gamblers, the same way that having vodka with breakfast on a regular basis is probably not the sign of a responsible drinker.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:49 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
What about their bettors? If the author could find these guys, surely they must have had some contact with the guys (I assume it's mostly guys, maybe that's a stereotype?) who bet with them. What are their stories?
How about the paranoia and destroyed social lives? That's glossed over too. Did the (ex) girlfriend know what he was doing? Her view of the situation would be absolutely fascinating.
A much more interesting article would have included some examination of these issues. Contrasting their addiction and debt with the addiction and debt they're enabling and encouraging in others would have made for a more interesting study.
So would a shred of self-awareness on the part of these dudes. The article didn't even examine that.
I guess what I'm saying here is there's a kernel of a good article here, but it should have been three times longer (something I don't often say, usually the opposite) and provided something more than a totally superficial view of these guys, what they do, how it affects their lives, and the lives they are helping to slowly destroy. (Not saying it's not possible to gamble responsibly as entertainment, but my sense is that the majority of people going to shady bookies are not responsible gamblers, the same way that having vodka with breakfast on a regular basis is probably not the sign of a responsible drinker.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:49 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
So Cleveland's still in the process of examining and thinking about gambling, legal or not, and how it affects people and the city and what kind of effect legalized gambling has had on gambling culture in the city.
On postview, I'm pretty damn glad Toronto has essentially rejected the idea of a casino. The whole idea was lose-lose for everyone except the casino owners.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:50 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
On postview, I'm pretty damn glad Toronto has essentially rejected the idea of a casino. The whole idea was lose-lose for everyone except the casino owners.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:50 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, you could give Ford a job there
posted by thelonius at 6:55 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 6:55 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can't see how a throwaway phone would be adequate protection anymore now that cell phone metadata is so widely scrutinized. It doesn't matter if the phone is registered to Mickey Mouse if the cops see that this other phone registered to you is logged into the same cell site in the same vicinity all the time.
posted by dr_dank at 7:02 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by dr_dank at 7:02 AM on December 27, 2013
dr_dank: registered to who? by what method?
You can buy a phone at the 7-11. It will work immediately, no registration needed. If you live in an apartment complex or even a crowded block, it will be hard to prove whose dwelling that pone was in.
posted by idiopath at 7:06 AM on December 27, 2013
You can buy a phone at the 7-11. It will work immediately, no registration needed. If you live in an apartment complex or even a crowded block, it will be hard to prove whose dwelling that pone was in.
posted by idiopath at 7:06 AM on December 27, 2013
I have used the same phone for 5 years now. The company that sold me the phone doesn't know my name.
posted by idiopath at 7:07 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 7:07 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
fffm, I see your points about things the article could have contained and don't necessarily disagree with them, but . . . . *shrug* the Scene is Cleveland's free weekly newspaper and (IMO) primarily aimed at covering arts & culture, so deep long-form investigative journalism isn't really its' strong suit and space is limited.
To get the depth and breadth that you're talking about would (I think) need an Atlantic/GQ/Rolling Stone level of commitment, both of reporter's time and space in the paper, which probably ain't gonna happen in the Scene.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:10 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
To get the depth and breadth that you're talking about would (I think) need an Atlantic/GQ/Rolling Stone level of commitment, both of reporter's time and space in the paper, which probably ain't gonna happen in the Scene.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:10 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
To run his business effectively, he has to take risks. He can't switch cell phones every week, because his bettors need to be able to reach him via phone and text before every game. Getting new betters requires in-person meetings, as does nurturing the existing guys and debt collection. He has to keep super detailed records of every transaction in order to be able to constantly adjust the spreads.
All of those are contrary to some pretend James Bond style secrecy, which means that he could get nailed by a subordinate cutting a deal with the police, or by a friend of a friend doing the same, or by one of the many sports betting rule violations mentioned in the article getting investigated. He's taking a lot of risk for not that much financial gain -- all of them are still working day jobs, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
All of those are contrary to some pretend James Bond style secrecy, which means that he could get nailed by a subordinate cutting a deal with the police, or by a friend of a friend doing the same, or by one of the many sports betting rule violations mentioned in the article getting investigated. He's taking a lot of risk for not that much financial gain -- all of them are still working day jobs, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
They should go into Wall Street, once the rich college kids graduate, grow up and become upstanding investor-citizens.
or just convince everyone that the economy will collapse if we stop betting on college sports...
posted by ennui.bz at 7:21 AM on December 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
or just convince everyone that the economy will collapse if we stop betting on college sports...
posted by ennui.bz at 7:21 AM on December 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
This all rings very true. A long time ago I made my entrance at kuro5hin writing about my friend's card counting career. On the pro side card counting is legal and you're taking the money from a heartless corporation which was formed to take it from you; on the con side, the large heartless corporation has lots of resources to spend hassling you, and eventually they made the game unwinnable, closing what amounted to a window of opportunity.
In other ways X was almost exactly like these guys. Before he succeeded he failed and failed and failed, losing everything and ending up far in debt. We hooked up with him because he could be relied upon to share gas money and to play correctly and share the winnings when we did a tournament split or other low-level plus-EV promotion. When he finally got his shit together and started winning he hired my wife to count for him, and ultimately about eight other people.
Along with success came the paranoia. They were carrying obscene amounts of cash and going through a rotation of disguises. They were chased and very occasionally assaulted by casino security personnel. (In one case X successfully sued the casino for that.) And eventually the casinos did what they should have done in 1974 and just adjusted the rules of play to make counting unprofitable.
At which point, X turned to poker, where he was no longer taking the money from heartless corporations but now from other people like himself who sometimes obviously couldn't afford to lose it. Then the recession hit, and most of those people lost their money and that opportunity closed.
to fffm: Contrasting their addiction and debt with the addiction and debt they're enabling and encouraging in others would have made for a more interesting study.
If you know yourself and you know the only alternative to gambling and winning is to gamble and lose, you will overlook a lot.
At one time X had over a million dollars. Today he is about to lose his last asset; he took the biggest hits trading on the margin in the stock market when 9/11 hit, and in real estate that was drowned by Katrina.
His latest project has been a fitness project so obsessive it mystefies a lot of his other associates, but not me. His diet and exercise regiment is the one thing left in his life that he can control. He knows where gambling leads all too well if he doesn't have a +EV opportunity to exploit.
posted by localroger at 7:35 AM on December 27, 2013 [11 favorites]
In other ways X was almost exactly like these guys. Before he succeeded he failed and failed and failed, losing everything and ending up far in debt. We hooked up with him because he could be relied upon to share gas money and to play correctly and share the winnings when we did a tournament split or other low-level plus-EV promotion. When he finally got his shit together and started winning he hired my wife to count for him, and ultimately about eight other people.
Along with success came the paranoia. They were carrying obscene amounts of cash and going through a rotation of disguises. They were chased and very occasionally assaulted by casino security personnel. (In one case X successfully sued the casino for that.) And eventually the casinos did what they should have done in 1974 and just adjusted the rules of play to make counting unprofitable.
At which point, X turned to poker, where he was no longer taking the money from heartless corporations but now from other people like himself who sometimes obviously couldn't afford to lose it. Then the recession hit, and most of those people lost their money and that opportunity closed.
to fffm: Contrasting their addiction and debt with the addiction and debt they're enabling and encouraging in others would have made for a more interesting study.
If you know yourself and you know the only alternative to gambling and winning is to gamble and lose, you will overlook a lot.
At one time X had over a million dollars. Today he is about to lose his last asset; he took the biggest hits trading on the margin in the stock market when 9/11 hit, and in real estate that was drowned by Katrina.
His latest project has been a fitness project so obsessive it mystefies a lot of his other associates, but not me. His diet and exercise regiment is the one thing left in his life that he can control. He knows where gambling leads all too well if he doesn't have a +EV opportunity to exploit.
posted by localroger at 7:35 AM on December 27, 2013 [11 favorites]
He's taking a lot of risk for not that much financial gain -- all of them are still working day jobs, for example.
However, if you view it not just as money made, but also as money he's not losing while still sort of feeding his gambling addiction, it's likely an overall positive for him.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 AM on December 27, 2013
However, if you view it not just as money made, but also as money he's not losing while still sort of feeding his gambling addiction, it's likely an overall positive for him.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 AM on December 27, 2013
Great read. I have just discovered a whole world of problems that I'm glad I don't have.
posted by freakazoid at 7:45 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by freakazoid at 7:45 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Idiopath: tell us more about that.
posted by quillbreaker at 9:02 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by quillbreaker at 9:02 AM on December 27, 2013
quillbreaker: not sure if you are joking, but it is just a standard prepaid phone. They don't require registration to use. Or at least they didn't when I bought mine.
posted by idiopath at 9:12 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by idiopath at 9:12 AM on December 27, 2013
fffm, I see your points about things the article could have contained and don't necessarily disagree with them, but . . . . *shrug* the Scene is Cleveland's free weekly newspaper and (IMO) primarily aimed at covering arts & culture, so deep long-form investigative journalism isn't really its' strong suit and space is limited.
Ahhhhhh. That explains it, I knew nothing of the paper and was reading it as though it were...
an Atlantic/GQ/Rolling Stone level of commitment, both of reporter's time and space in the paper, which probably ain't gonna happen in the Scene.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:20 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ahhhhhh. That explains it, I knew nothing of the paper and was reading it as though it were...
an Atlantic/GQ/Rolling Stone level of commitment, both of reporter's time and space in the paper, which probably ain't gonna happen in the Scene.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:20 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
quillbreaker: not sure if you are joking, but it is just a standard prepaid phone. They don't require registration to use. Or at least they didn't when I bought mine.
(if I could stop hitting post before I mean to that would be great)
Given the collection of cell metadata and the ease of crossreferencing (it's been discussed here in the last few(?) months; access to enough metadata and someone can basically reconstruct your entire life) I wouldn't bet any money (heh) on burner phones being much more secure than a standard phone. They can track you pretty closely just from triangulating from towers, and obviously even more so if you haven't/can't turn the GPS off. So there's location. And examining the metadata of who you contact and when should provide a pretty clear profile of who you are--enough for a warrant at least, I'd guess, even if they can't specifically identify you by name.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:23 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
(if I could stop hitting post before I mean to that would be great)
Given the collection of cell metadata and the ease of crossreferencing (it's been discussed here in the last few(?) months; access to enough metadata and someone can basically reconstruct your entire life) I wouldn't bet any money (heh) on burner phones being much more secure than a standard phone. They can track you pretty closely just from triangulating from towers, and obviously even more so if you haven't/can't turn the GPS off. So there's location. And examining the metadata of who you contact and when should provide a pretty clear profile of who you are--enough for a warrant at least, I'd guess, even if they can't specifically identify you by name.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:23 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
That was an interesting glimpse into a world about which I know less than nothing. A long form version of this would be wonderful.
posted by arcticseal at 9:26 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by arcticseal at 9:26 AM on December 27, 2013
feckless fecal fear mongering: why would they put GPS in a phone that sells for $30 and comes with 300 minutes of air time? Mine doesn't even have a camera or the ability to display an image. The contact metadata will tell them you talked to a bunch of people who were talking to a bookie. Using the burner phone to talk to people in your personal life kind of defeats the purpose.
Now in my case I am just using a burner phone because I wanted a cheap nigh-indestructible device that makes and receives phone calls on the go without a contract. So of course my metadata probably identifies me.
posted by idiopath at 9:38 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Now in my case I am just using a burner phone because I wanted a cheap nigh-indestructible device that makes and receives phone calls on the go without a contract. So of course my metadata probably identifies me.
posted by idiopath at 9:38 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
why would they put GPS in a phone that sells for $30 and comes with 300 minutes of air time?
As I recall, the first iPhones didn't have GPS, but they still had mapping programs that triangulated you via response times from cell towers and the like. It would be pretty easy for law enforcement to track you via which cell towers your phone pinged at any given moment.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
As I recall, the first iPhones didn't have GPS, but they still had mapping programs that triangulated you via response times from cell towers and the like. It would be pretty easy for law enforcement to track you via which cell towers your phone pinged at any given moment.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
thelonius: "Well, you could give Ford a job there"
The Mob has tougher hiring policies than that. He'd never pass the HR testing.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:33 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
The Mob has tougher hiring policies than that. He'd never pass the HR testing.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:33 AM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
The fourth season of The Wire was pretty much a textbook demonstration of how burner phones can be penetrated. And of course it's only gotten easier since they made that show.
posted by localroger at 10:52 AM on December 27, 2013
posted by localroger at 10:52 AM on December 27, 2013
I'm pretty damn glad Toronto has essentially rejected the idea of a casino. The whole idea was lose-lose for everyone except the casino owners.
I wish the same could be said for Boston
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 11:07 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wish the same could be said for Boston
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 11:07 AM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
From an anonymous commenter:
This article makes is seem downright glamorous. My wifes father has been a bookie since the 70's when an injury stopped him from doing physical work. He has been "caught" twice. Once in the early 80's and once in about 10 years ago. The thing is when you get caught, you can go right back to doing the same old thing and no one cares... The cops certainly don't, to them betting is a victimless crime. In our town his uncle was the chief of police for a while and everyone knew including the cops that he was the town bookie. The IRS only cares when they think you owe them money. And, in the case of my father in law he is now approaching 70 years old with hundreds of thousands of dollars of tax liens against his property. Yet, he continues to take bets as that is all he knows and he still believes will get him the money to pay his debts.posted by restless_nomad at 12:06 PM on December 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
My grandparents ran numbers in Pittsburgh. They were solidly middle-class and ran the thing like a legit business.
Grandpa Boots used to tell me, "Always pay your taxes, that's how they got Capone." He ran his money through a friend at a body shop, so he could make appropriate tax withholdings.
Grandma would stay home in the office, with her 5 phones taking the action. She kept her notes on giant desk blotters. She was the one that told me about flash paper. If any one number got heavy play, she'd lay-off the bet so if it hit, they wouldn't get hurt too badly. She was my first exposure to risk management.
The Pittsburgh PD is notorious for being the most corrupt, so there were a series of cops Grandpa had to pay off. My Dad tells the story of the guys coming to the door for their bite, and Grandpa glad-handing them and wishing them a Merry Christmas and what not, adding, "you son-of-a-bitch," after the door closed behind them.
They ran the business for 25 years, from the end of WWII until the early seventies, when Grandma got arrested. It took a couple of days to track her down and get bail. When they did, she had been playing Spades with prostitutes until she could leave. After that, they sold the house and moved to California. "You know it's time to get out of the business when bribing cops won't keep a grandmother out of jail."
So the threw in with my aunt and uncle and bought a nice farm, where they raised pot.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:09 PM on December 27, 2013 [41 favorites]
Grandpa Boots used to tell me, "Always pay your taxes, that's how they got Capone." He ran his money through a friend at a body shop, so he could make appropriate tax withholdings.
Grandma would stay home in the office, with her 5 phones taking the action. She kept her notes on giant desk blotters. She was the one that told me about flash paper. If any one number got heavy play, she'd lay-off the bet so if it hit, they wouldn't get hurt too badly. She was my first exposure to risk management.
The Pittsburgh PD is notorious for being the most corrupt, so there were a series of cops Grandpa had to pay off. My Dad tells the story of the guys coming to the door for their bite, and Grandpa glad-handing them and wishing them a Merry Christmas and what not, adding, "you son-of-a-bitch," after the door closed behind them.
They ran the business for 25 years, from the end of WWII until the early seventies, when Grandma got arrested. It took a couple of days to track her down and get bail. When they did, she had been playing Spades with prostitutes until she could leave. After that, they sold the house and moved to California. "You know it's time to get out of the business when bribing cops won't keep a grandmother out of jail."
So the threw in with my aunt and uncle and bought a nice farm, where they raised pot.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:09 PM on December 27, 2013 [41 favorites]
idiopath: "feckless fecal fear mongering: why would they put GPS in a phone that sells for $30 and comes with 300 minutes of air time? "
"To fight The Terrorists". The problem is buying/forcing a back door into phone chipmakers located in places like Tokyo, Taiwan, and China.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:54 PM on December 27, 2013
"To fight The Terrorists". The problem is buying/forcing a back door into phone chipmakers located in places like Tokyo, Taiwan, and China.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:54 PM on December 27, 2013
Etrigan: "As I recall, the first iPhones didn't have GPS, but they still had mapping programs that triangulated you via response times from cell towers and the like. It would be pretty easy for law enforcement to track you via which cell towers your phone pinged at any given moment."
Those are very crude. It will allow them to roughly tell where you are - this block, near or in these few stores - but that's about it.
Enough tracking data would prove something to a scientifically literate jury... but not a real-world one. They'd figure out who you are, but cops already know who most of the criminals are. It's proving what they've done to a jury that's the tricky part.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:58 PM on December 27, 2013
Those are very crude. It will allow them to roughly tell where you are - this block, near or in these few stores - but that's about it.
Enough tracking data would prove something to a scientifically literate jury... but not a real-world one. They'd figure out who you are, but cops already know who most of the criminals are. It's proving what they've done to a jury that's the tricky part.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:58 PM on December 27, 2013
Enough tracking data would prove something to a scientifically literate jury... but not a real-world one. They'd figure out who you are, but cops already know who most of the criminals are. It's proving what they've done to a jury that's the tricky part.
There isn't a bookie in the country who couldn't be taken down by his local police department within a fortnight if the police really wanted to, regardless of whether he's using burner phones, dead drops, flash paper or whatever. The issue isn't that the police don't think they could prove it to a jury -- the issue is that the police don't care until something makes them care (e.g., the mayor needs a win before the elections; the mayor's cousin gets his legs broken because he's $50K in the hole to the wrong bookie).
posted by Etrigan at 4:53 PM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
There isn't a bookie in the country who couldn't be taken down by his local police department within a fortnight if the police really wanted to, regardless of whether he's using burner phones, dead drops, flash paper or whatever. The issue isn't that the police don't think they could prove it to a jury -- the issue is that the police don't care until something makes them care (e.g., the mayor needs a win before the elections; the mayor's cousin gets his legs broken because he's $50K in the hole to the wrong bookie).
posted by Etrigan at 4:53 PM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
A long time ago I made my entrance at kuro5hin writing about my friend's card counting career.... Today he is about to lose his last asset; he took the biggest hits trading on the margin in the stock market when 9/11 hit, and in real estate that was drowned by Katrina.
Oh hey! I remember that post (series of posts...?). If you were writing about a card counter working the casinos and steamboats down along the gulf coast - yeah, I read that, back in the day. It was my favorite thing I ever read on k5, in fact, for what it's worth. Good work.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 5:46 PM on December 27, 2013
Oh hey! I remember that post (series of posts...?). If you were writing about a card counter working the casinos and steamboats down along the gulf coast - yeah, I read that, back in the day. It was my favorite thing I ever read on k5, in fact, for what it's worth. Good work.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 5:46 PM on December 27, 2013
There isn't a bookie in the country who couldn't be taken down by his local police department within a fortnight if the police really wanted to, regardless of whether he's using burner phones, dead drops, flash paper or whatever. The issue isn't that the police don't think they could prove it to a jury -- the issue is that the police don't care until something makes them care (e.g., the mayor needs a win before the elections; the mayor's cousin gets his legs broken because he's $50K in the hole to the wrong bookie).
Underground gambling operations often get entangled with local organized crime -- everybody notices when money is flowing around, and everybody (not just cops) wants to get his finger in the pie. If there's any organized crime in your area (I don't know if that applies to Cleveland or not) you're not unlikely to run into it as a gambler, and it can be pretty hard to avoid trying to run a gambling operation like this. If the police have a bigger player/organization in their sights, a bookie might look like an easy place to apply some pressure -- which could put the bookie in a situation where he's got to take his lumps from the police or risk looking disloyal to his even-more-dangerous associates, and he could wind up going to prison for a couple years and/or have to go into hiding for a while. That's happened to a relative of mine, more than once.
The guys in this article make a point of saying that they're only involved in sports betting (not regular street gambling, not "business investments," etc), that they don't use violence, that their operation is limited to the two of them (and maybe Luke's younger brother). That could definitely be true, but if I had to guess, I'd guess that it isn't or that it won't be if the operation gets much bigger. There's just no way to keep even a relatively modest operation completely quiet when you're in a client-based business, and once people know you have money coming in and out they're going to find ways for you to spend it (usually on them) -- and as a gambler, it's going to be extremely hard for you to say no to all these "opportunities" over and over and over.
Speaking of saying no, sounds to me like the guys' network is all men or they live in a really masculine world -- I would think that either a woman who likes to gamble herself or who likes the kind of flashy stuff that someone could buy her from all that unlaundered cash would fit into their lifestyle and wouldn't be all that hard to find. I'm related to more than a couple of them. I think the writer was trying to make the bookies' lifestyle seem sordid and lonely, but I didn't quite buy that -- what doesn't fit easily into that kind of lifestyle isn't romance, it's kids.
posted by rue72 at 6:31 PM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Underground gambling operations often get entangled with local organized crime -- everybody notices when money is flowing around, and everybody (not just cops) wants to get his finger in the pie. If there's any organized crime in your area (I don't know if that applies to Cleveland or not) you're not unlikely to run into it as a gambler, and it can be pretty hard to avoid trying to run a gambling operation like this. If the police have a bigger player/organization in their sights, a bookie might look like an easy place to apply some pressure -- which could put the bookie in a situation where he's got to take his lumps from the police or risk looking disloyal to his even-more-dangerous associates, and he could wind up going to prison for a couple years and/or have to go into hiding for a while. That's happened to a relative of mine, more than once.
The guys in this article make a point of saying that they're only involved in sports betting (not regular street gambling, not "business investments," etc), that they don't use violence, that their operation is limited to the two of them (and maybe Luke's younger brother). That could definitely be true, but if I had to guess, I'd guess that it isn't or that it won't be if the operation gets much bigger. There's just no way to keep even a relatively modest operation completely quiet when you're in a client-based business, and once people know you have money coming in and out they're going to find ways for you to spend it (usually on them) -- and as a gambler, it's going to be extremely hard for you to say no to all these "opportunities" over and over and over.
Speaking of saying no, sounds to me like the guys' network is all men or they live in a really masculine world -- I would think that either a woman who likes to gamble herself or who likes the kind of flashy stuff that someone could buy her from all that unlaundered cash would fit into their lifestyle and wouldn't be all that hard to find. I'm related to more than a couple of them. I think the writer was trying to make the bookies' lifestyle seem sordid and lonely, but I didn't quite buy that -- what doesn't fit easily into that kind of lifestyle isn't romance, it's kids.
posted by rue72 at 6:31 PM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah Joey that was me, A Casino Odyssey. Thanks. I wish there was something I could do for X but at this point he seems like kind of a lost soul. Y and I have moved on from the whole casino thing but X pretty much has no options left.
posted by localroger at 7:43 PM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by localroger at 7:43 PM on December 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
(Link to localroger's Kuro5hin.org piece: A Casino Odyssey)
posted by blueberry at 8:19 PM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by blueberry at 8:19 PM on December 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Jeez, is it really thirteen years since I first read that? Doesn't time fly...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:55 AM on December 28, 2013
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:55 AM on December 28, 2013
But how are the debts collected?
posted by oceanjesse at 10:43 PM on December 28, 2013
posted by oceanjesse at 10:43 PM on December 28, 2013
Etrigan: "There isn't a bookie in the country who couldn't be taken down by his local police department within a fortnight if the police really wanted to, regardless of whether he's using burner phones, dead drops, flash paper or whatever. The issue isn't that the police don't think they could prove it to a jury -- the issue is that the police don't care until something makes them care (e.g., the mayor needs a win before the elections; the mayor's cousin gets his legs broken because he's $50K in the hole to the wrong bookie)."
OK, that's a really good point, and the same argument can be made about whorehouses. AFAIK, they generally only get raided in the months preceding city elections, although they're generally about as well-concealed as gas stations and fast food restaurants (some even rent billboards along highways).
So, there are certain laws that are only of importance to law enforcement when the higher-ups care... Potemkin village crimes, perhaps.
posted by IAmBroom at 1:45 PM on December 30, 2013
OK, that's a really good point, and the same argument can be made about whorehouses. AFAIK, they generally only get raided in the months preceding city elections, although they're generally about as well-concealed as gas stations and fast food restaurants (some even rent billboards along highways).
So, there are certain laws that are only of importance to law enforcement when the higher-ups care... Potemkin village crimes, perhaps.
posted by IAmBroom at 1:45 PM on December 30, 2013
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posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:19 PM on December 26, 2013 [2 favorites]