January 18, 2002

8:55 AM

Anyone see the new offering from Ann Coulter?Remember the picture of the firemen raising the flag, sometimes called "The New Iwo Jima"? New York has commissioned a statue of that picture, but they want to change two of the firemen to be a black man and a Hispanic man. Ann tells exactly what she thinks of this, in her... er... own particular idiom.
posted by starvingartist (66 comments total)

Why not ignore her?
posted by raysmj at 8:58 AM on January 18, 2002

I absolutely love her! Crazy Annie is the funniest writer EVER! I'm convinced that she's secretly a Leftist who is out to discredit the American Right.
posted by Harry Hopkins' Hat at 9:00 AM on January 18, 2002

Annis indeed a gem, an American icon! Got to love her. She uses the argument about the statue to get in some quick japs at a number of Blacks.
As for the American Indian at Iwo Jima, he served, true. But blacks were segregated from whites and integrated only under Truman in 1950 --Korean War. And the sad irony is that one reason (we are told) we went to war against Hitler was because of his race hatred ideas.
I perrsonally like the idea of depicting the men who were "the event" rather than playing about for whatever reason, but I don't need Ann's venom to convince me.
I would like to see her mounted atop the flag pole.
posted by Postroad at 9:01 AM on January 18, 2002

She raises an interesting question, despite being an inflammatory warmonger. Why can't the statue be of the three real-life firemen from the picture?
posted by starvingartist at 9:03 AM on January 18, 2002

FYI, starvingartist, we've talked about this issue a couple of times--including earlier today.
posted by jpoulos at 9:07 AM on January 18, 2002

I am probably one of the most anti-PC people on earth and even I think this whole statue flap is ridiculous. Besides, my best freind is a Hispanic firefighter, so I think the mixed-race statue is kind of neat.
That said, starvingartist has a point. Sometimes reality speaks for itself better than any representation we can dream up.
posted by jonmc at 9:10 AM on January 18, 2002

Do black people really ever call white people "honkies?" I've never actually heard this word used outside of "The Jeffersons".
posted by ColdChef at 9:11 AM on January 18, 2002

THE COLOR OF DEMAGOGY?

Um DEMAGOGUERY anyone?
posted by y2karl at 9:15 AM on January 18, 2002

shit. I read MeFi all day. How could I miss that? sorry.

*hangs head in shame*
posted by starvingartist at 9:17 AM on January 18, 2002

I agree with her.
posted by schlaager at 9:30 AM on January 18, 2002

Sez Anne: "...manifestly, white men have no political power in modern America."
Also, the sky is not blue, the Earth is flat and does not orbit the Sun, and water is not wet.
I wish I got paid big bucks to make stupid assertions backed by zero supporting data.
Unfortunately, I can't comment on anything else she wrote, because I quit reading in disgust. Anyone who truly believes that rich white guys aren't still running the country is either truly an imbecile or deliberately obtuse.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:35 AM on January 18, 2002

ColdChef....About the honkey thing...

When we moved to Berkeley in 1978, there was a black woman living next door whole, while my parents were at work, stole all the boxes that were shipped to our house from our previous residence when we moved. When my dad went to her house to find out if she had seen anything out of the ordinary, she started screaming at him saying "I don't want no bald-headed honkey" asking her questions. It's still a classic in our family. Dad will forever be the "bald-headed honkey." So yes, I think some do call whites honkeys (again, that was 1978, so maybe not any longer.)
posted by aacheson at 10:11 AM on January 18, 2002

Why can't the statue be of the three real-life firemen from the picture?

I don't know. Why does it have to be a re-enactment of an already existing statue?

Why not something different? Don't the people who died deserve an original statue or memorial? And if not, perhaps something like the Vietnam Memorial where the victims names can be etched and remembered? Where race or color won't matter?

Just a thought.
posted by terrapin at 10:12 AM on January 18, 2002

Feh. People suck.

Make a statue of the people who actually raised the flag. The fact that they're all white doesn't matter a damn.


Four days after the attack, black firemen in Opa-Locka, Fla., refused to ride on a fire truck that displayed the American flag on the grounds that it was a symbol of the oppression of blacks.

First the Confederate flag, now the American flag... what next?
posted by Foosnark at 10:12 AM on January 18, 2002

The Fire Comish finally sacked the idea yesterday.
posted by nagchampa at 10:15 AM on January 18, 2002

Postroad: She uses the argument about the statue to get in some quick japs at a number of Blacks.

"Quick japs"? Oops.
posted by Danelope at 10:17 AM on January 18, 2002

make the statue out of bronze, so they will all be bronze colored. no color/race needed.
posted by jbelshaw at 10:18 AM on January 18, 2002

Of course, Anne is privledged to know that it's really tall, elitist, egotistical, blonde WOMEN who, manifestly, have all the political power in America
posted by aacheson at 10:20 AM on January 18, 2002

Public works and memorials always have someone who does not approve.

Why not something different? Don't the people who died deserve an original statue or memorial? And if not, perhaps something like the Vietnam Memorial ...

The Vietnam Memorial was not well recieved because it was nontraditional, and a statue was added to please people.
posted by sailormouth at 10:54 AM on January 18, 2002

Public works and memorials always have someone who does not approve.

Why not something different? Don't the people who died deserve an original statue or memorial? And if not, perhaps something like the Vietnam Memorial ...

The Vietnam Memorial was not well recieved because it was nontraditional, and a statue was added to please people.
posted by sailormouth at 10:55 AM on January 18, 2002

Anyone who truly believes that rich white guys aren't still running the country is either truly an imbecile or deliberately obtuse.

BitterOldPunK: You magically made the word "rich" appear, which changes the sentence entirely. Of course the rich run the country, but they don't have to be white, they just have to be rich. Money is always green, you know.

If you leave the sentence alone, it reads: "...white men have no political power in America." And, this may come as a surprise to you, but most white men aren't rich. Certainly not rich enough to run the country. Working class white men, like say, firemen. These white men are at the bottom of the political power totem pole because they can't buy congress and they don't get to play the minority card.

You may finish reading the article now.
posted by David Dark at 11:16 AM on January 18, 2002

David Dark...baloney baloney baloney baloney. White men, rich or not, have all of the power. Most political folks pander to them and are afraid to upset them. Political ads are generally aimed at them. The GOP party slobbers over them. The Democrats desperately need them and try to balance keeping them happy while furthering the Dem's agenda.

White men rule the world. Period. The rest of us are just in here trying to get at whatever is left for us.
posted by aacheson at 11:22 AM on January 18, 2002

i just find it ironic that the people who profess to be the most colorblind are in fact the extreme opposite.
posted by skinjob at 11:29 AM on January 18, 2002

Yeah, those poor white fireman who have no political power. That's why the New York fire department is 94% white?
posted by witchstone at 11:29 AM on January 18, 2002

White men rule the world.

Not in my house. (wink wink...hi honey)
posted by msacheson at 11:49 AM on January 18, 2002

---"Crazy Annie is the funniest writer EVER! I'm convinced that she's secretly a Leftist who is out to discredit the American Right."

I've had the same thought. I hope she and Horowitz keep it up. At this point, however, posting anything by Coulter on MeFi is pretty much like posting something by Lyndon Larouche: fun to bat around, but essentially weightless.
posted by Ty Webb at 11:49 AM on January 18, 2002

Speaking of Horowitz, I'm convinced his departure from the left had nothing to do with politics-the lefties simply found his personality so grating that they sent him packing. I wonder how long before the Republicans do the same.
Hint to Mr. Horowitz: If they do boot you, don't even think about sitting at the Libertarian table in this cafeteria. We'll beat you and take your lunch, got it?!
posted by jonmc at 12:11 PM on January 18, 2002

This is ridiculous. Next thing you know, the Statue of Liberty will have an afro.
Come on. If the people in the photo were all white, then then the memorial should portray that as well. I would be pretty pissed off if I was one of the "other two" caucasian
men in the photo.
posted by bradth27 at 12:19 PM on January 18, 2002

Ladies and gents: Ann Coulter says "Kill The Fatties"
posted by owillis at 12:21 PM on January 18, 2002

David Dark -- oops! My classism is showing! To clarify -in that sentence you picked apart I wasn't quoting her, and I had already established exactly what she said in the italicized portion of my comment. I hope most MeFi folks realized that "rich white men run the country" is MY opinion, which I did not attribute to Coulter. I'm sorry if I confused you.

And you're right -- most white men aren't rich. But most rich men ARE white. And to say that working class white guys are at the bottom of the political totem pole is simply to assert something and hope in doing so to make it true.

Racism is America is no longer as overt as it has been (although there's plenty of that still around) but it's very much a factor.

And by the way, run that opinion about how whitey is oppressed by your black friends and see how they react. You do have black friends, right?
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:22 PM on January 18, 2002

How can you even say white men don't hold any power in modern America? All you need to do is turn on CSPAN to see that the majority of the people running this country are rich, white, older men.

Hell, look at the president. When was the last time we had a non-old, white male president?

I'll leave it at that.
posted by SweetJesus at 12:22 PM on January 18, 2002

Um, bitteroldpunk, you really, really ought to visit owillis's home page quickly...
posted by jonmc at 12:27 PM on January 18, 2002

whoops, your comment was addressed to DavidDark..sorry, disregard previous post
posted by jonmc at 12:28 PM on January 18, 2002

Damn, Owillis. that is funny as hell.
Thanks for the tit description.
posted by bradth27 at 12:31 PM on January 18, 2002

Oh, uh...statues, firemen, controversy.

*gingerly replacing hijacked thread*
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:42 PM on January 18, 2002

Come on. If the people in the photo were all white, then then the memorial should portray that as well.

I'd agree if this were a memorial to those three men. But I don't think it is: aren't they still alive? What's being celebrated here is not these three particular people or even this particular action but what they represent, the triumph of the American spirit over adversity.

Ms. Coulter is using this as an excuse to foam at the mouth about liberals. Her rhetoric, as always, is ridiculous and extreme. Ignore her.
posted by anapestic at 1:09 PM on January 18, 2002

Next thing you know, the Statue of Liberty will have an afro.

The Statue is in fact intended to depict a black woman.
posted by sudama at 1:18 PM on January 18, 2002

anapestic,
If this is truly what is taking place, then they should think up something entirely different for the memorial.
I understand that the memorial is not to represent these particular firemen, but it will be fashioned after something that they did..and were photographed doing. It doesn't seem the right thing to do. I get a bit of a creepy feeling about it all.
posted by bradth27 at 1:22 PM on January 18, 2002

"The Statue is in fact intended to depict a black woman."

That depends upon if you fall for Internet Urban Legends on a regular basis, or who you are talking to. The story went around the internet for awhile, and was even investigated, but was finally decided that the story was faulse. Most of the "documentation" for the story simply does not exist, and never has.
posted by bradth27 at 1:29 PM on January 18, 2002

The plans for this statue are being changed.
posted by bragadocchio at 1:30 PM on January 18, 2002

The Statue is in fact intended to depict a black woman.

sudama, as this is linkworthy, how 'bout it?

And bradth27, don't you mean nipples?
This is a tit description.
posted by y2karl at 1:42 PM on January 18, 2002

someone give Ann a pretzel.
posted by tolkhan at 1:44 PM on January 18, 2002

The Vietnam Memorial was not well recieved because it was nontraditional, and a statue was added to please people.

Sorry, but it is VERY well received by MANY people. It is the single-most visited memorial, and consistently is described by visitors as the most moving. I've lived here for nearly 30 years, and at least once a year I go to the Vietnam memorial (usually around Memorial Day) and watch the people cry and rub the names of their loved ones onto strips of paper.
posted by terrapin at 1:54 PM on January 18, 2002

True, but at the time of it's initial creation, there were several Veteran Groups who created quite a stir about it's design. There was quite a bit of controversy, and the statue was indeed added to ease that argument.
However, today it stands as one of the most important and moving memorials in our country.
I have had the chance to visit the Memorial with a friend, who is a Vietnam veteran. Being there and seeing the reaction to it is literally amazing.
posted by bradth27 at 2:05 PM on January 18, 2002

In 2000, the National Park Service decided there was enough evidence to warrant a thorough investigation into the origins of the Statue. There were some news stories when the research was beginning, but I didn't find anything in a quick Google about what conclusions were drawn. As for the Park Service website, it looks like the terrorists have won. Snopes dismisses the claim as false, but it's a pretty reactionary write-up. About's Urban Legends page provides a reasonable synopsis, and for more a bit more detail here's a Feb 2000 interview with researcher Rebecca Joseph.
posted by sudama at 2:10 PM on January 18, 2002

Ann Coulter has always struck me as a slightly toned down Ed Anger. Or maybe Ed Anger is a kindler, gentler version of Coulter. Either way, they both inevitably make me laugh out loud.
posted by kittyloop at 2:15 PM on January 18, 2002

aacheson: White men, rich or not, have all of the power.

Sadly, you overestimate the power of pale skin and underestimate the power of greenbacks. Money controls the world and that's all that controls the world.

I am a white male, I have no money, and therefore I am not powerful. The rich folk don't invite me to their meetings, and the color of my skin isn't enough to get me in the door. There is no secret whitey handshake. This may fly in the face of your belief system that all white men rule the world, but you are wrong, and the sooner you realize it and adjust your mindset the better off you'll be.

You know, a lot of people would laugh at you, a blonde white woman, for including yourself in with "the rest of us... just in here trying to get at whatever is left for us." Boohoo. You poor oppressed white woman (Tee-hee-hee).

But I laugh at everyone who shares your ideology. Here we are, living in a time where equal rights are a reality, at least more of a reality than they've ever been in any society in history, and you people still can't stand up for yourselves and let go of the idea that you're not happy because you're being oppressed. "IF only I were a white male, then I'd have it made in the shade..." What a ridiculous way to look at the world. The fact is that if you were indeed a white male, the only difference would be that you'd have no one to blame.

witchstone: Where's your documentation showing that a disproportionate number of ethnic applicants to the NYFD are turned away on the basis of their race? I'd love to see it.

BitterOldPunk: of course i have black friends. doesn't everyone? But they don't sit around feeling sorry for themselves because of the color of their skin. Or their gender, for crying out loud.
posted by David Dark at 3:03 PM on January 18, 2002

well david, i'm on the lower rung of the tax bracket as a white male, but i'll agree that rich white men rule the world, so my personal example can even out yours...what we need is a much larger sampling number. Agreed?

and i think witchstone's point --correct me W if i'm wrong--is that the racial breakdown of the NYFD is extremely different from the racial breakdown of the population in general in NYC, which may imply [yes, i know, may and imply are weak words] that it is more of a "white" thing to do. Who knows. Anyone know stats for hiring/firing lawsuits in NYC?

shouldn't this thread be about what a kooky, horrid writer Ann is? I am all for the very first suggestion in this thread.
posted by th3ph17 at 3:40 PM on January 18, 2002

Would someone please let David Dark in on the secret handshake of the honkey club?
David, we meet every Thursday night at Cracker Barrel. See you there!
posted by bradth27 at 3:45 PM on January 18, 2002

terrapin -- The Vietnam Memorial was not well recieved...

When the Memorial WAS (past tense of is) originally introduced it was unlike any memorial of that or an earlier time. Hence to satisfy the complaints of SOME people a statue was added.

I agree with your retort. I was just pointing out that as times change views of public works or memorials can change. If it had not caused a stir there would not have been an addition traditional statue.

Personally I think the Vietnam Memorial Wall is better than a statue. The Wall is not three men embodying the mass of all those lost. The Wall lists all of those lost. I can understand that being a way more emotional and moving monument and tribute than a few "faceless" figures.

As far as the rubbings, it is amazing that people can take away something so personal from a monument without damaging it. I think if that had been foreseen the statue would not have been added to make it more acceptable.
posted by sailormouth at 3:48 PM on January 18, 2002

This thread only convinces me that some folks think criticizing Ann Coulter will get them laid. Which is it that has the liberal left aghast? Is it Ann's insistence on truth? Or, is it the fact that she is not living down the assigned politics of her gender?
posted by Real9 at 4:04 PM on January 18, 2002

David Dark, you should understand that membership in the white race grants you a status higher, in certain respects, than that of the most exalted persons excluded from it. You may honestly not be aware of the way white privilege functions. If that's true, I suggest you take a look at Peggy McIntosh's Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.
posted by sudama at 4:14 PM on January 18, 2002

th3ph17, i also agree that rich white men rule the world. I'm simply saying that it's because they're rich, not because they're white. If the richest men in the world were black, who would run the world?
posted by David Dark at 4:30 PM on January 18, 2002

Well, ok, that is a big IF, but yes, i agree. I also agree that as the world is progressing, being rich and powerful is crossing gender and racial lines. Obviously the fact that so much wealth is in such white male hands can be traced through the last 1,000 years of history, economics, war, industry etc...Centuries of domination and dogma have created the current status quo, and i don't see it ending completely anytime soon.

meanwhile, as a white male you/i are often treated differently in any number of situations, we just don't notice.

Sudama, great link, my favorite term from the invisible backpack is unacknowledged privilege. Gender studies is an excellent gateway into understanding racial biases...as that author states.
posted by th3ph17 at 4:46 PM on January 18, 2002

i have no objection to enshrining the image of three hunky males of various races raising the flag. but to be precisely politically correct, this is new york, thus, at least one of the heroes should be depicted as gay. (perhaps pink gloves or rainbow fire booties?)

come to think of it, what truly offends me is that there were no WOMEN firefighters down in the rubble at GZ. and that's also a reflection of social and political inequity, right? well never mind then, one of the stone figures should be female. done!

after all, what is the purpose of the statue? in the end, to really make ourselves feel better, we should never record history. we should simply correct it as we go.
posted by jellybuzz at 4:47 PM on January 18, 2002

This thread only convinces me that some folks think criticizing Ann Coulter will get them laid.

Ah, where there's Coulter, there's Real9. It's that dead-frog's-leg-animated-by-galvanic-impulse response.
posted by y2karl at 4:50 PM on January 18, 2002

"THE COLOR OF DEMAGOGY?

Um DEMAGOGUERY anyone?"

y2karl, I was going to say the same thing. Then I looked it up, just to be sure, and both are acceptable.

I'm still stunned that she gave up the extra syllable, though.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:19 PM on January 18, 2002

y2karl, I was impressed right up to the point that was apparent that your direct insult was a recycled mantra and probably borrowed.
posted by Real9 at 5:20 PM on January 18, 2002

Nope.

And indirectly:

This thread only convinces me that some folks think criticizing Ann Coulter will get them laid.

I, uh, bow to your expertise in these matters.*

*Paying for it doesn't count, though.
posted by y2karl at 5:28 PM on January 18, 2002

Well, mr_crash, it figures. I suppose it was forgone to demonstrate her vastly superior intellect.
posted by y2karl at 5:30 PM on January 18, 2002

y2karl, you win the one man race to the bottom. congratulations.
posted by Real9 at 5:32 PM on January 18, 2002

Hey, just teasin'...
'Sides, that would be on the Free Republic. ;Ð
posted by y2karl at 6:13 PM on January 18, 2002

People--for heaven's sake, the freaking statue wasn't even commissioned by the freaking Fire Department!!!! It was a proposed "gift" from a private developer from whom the NYFD rents space.

And the Iwo Jima Monument is a depiction of the SECOND flag raising at Mount Suribachi. So this photo is a recreation of a recreation of a recreation. So the proposed statue was a recreation of a recreation of a recreation.

If that's "history," I'll take vanilla.

And, jeez, "White men have no political power?" Right, Ann. Take a look at Congress...how many of them are white (more than 60%, yes?) How many of them are men (more than 49%, yes?) If that's what you call "truth," Real9, I wish I could be a telemarketer with you on my list.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:27 PM on January 18, 2002

Just for the record: obviously I have no affection for Ann Coulter, among others mentiioned, but to tell the truth, she's a moderately attractive woman, in my opinion. Tastes differ but I tend to look at human beings the way I look at dogs: A good looking English Bulldog and a good looking Golden Retriever are, well, apples and oranges. There are good looking thin people and good looking fat people, short and tall, so on and so forth. My aversion for Coulter is based solely on her poisonality.
posted by y2karl at 7:40 PM on January 18, 2002

Here we are, living in a time where equal rights are a reality,

bwahahahahahahahaha!
posted by tolkhan at 11:02 PM on January 18, 2002

tolkhan, name a society anywhere at any time in the history of civilization where there was more equality for more members of the human race than there is right now.
posted by David Dark at 11:48 PM on January 18, 2002