Israel bombing Gaza again
July 8, 2014 12:13 PM   Subscribe

"Israel and its Palestinian adversaries in Gaza sharply escalated the latest deadly resurgence of hostilities on Tuesday, with the Israeli military conducting an intense aerial bombardment that targeted at least 50 Gazan sites, including homes, and militants in the enclave responding with a long-range missile volley aimed at Israeli population centers, including Tel Aviv."

Israel has mobilized troops along the Gaza border and is preparing for a possible ground invasion. The intensification in violence follows several incidents: the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers; the subsequent murder of Palestinian Mohammed Abu Khdeir (alleged to have been burned alive by Israeli religious youths); and the beating of American Tarek Abu Khdeir by Israeli soldiers.

Some have accused the Israeli government of deliberately inflaming public opinion during a tense situation. Others note the anti-Arab mobs are no aberration, and that objectionable behavior extends to some Israeli lawmakers themselves.

Previous Metafilter coverage of attacks into Gaza: Operation Cast Lead (2008-9) and Operation Pillar of Defense (2012).
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles (1741 comments total) 28 users marked this as a favorite
 
.
posted by Renoroc at 12:16 PM on July 8, 2014 [9 favorites]


Air raid sirens stopped sounding in Jerusalem 10 minutes ago.
posted by qi at 12:22 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


I've been watching this cycle repeat itself for literally my entire adult life. I wonder what will end it? Surely not more attacks.
posted by jetsetsc at 12:24 PM on July 8, 2014 [15 favorites]


More children will die.

..................(and on forever, apparently)

Even very smart people don't have good solutions for this, I can only feel sad.
posted by poe at 12:25 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


Dan Carlin does these amazing "pop history" podcasts, one is a very involved and lengthy (Hardcore History) but he also does a shorter 'history relating to modern events' one called "Common Sense". Sort of a politically loaded name, but it's fairly even-keel and remarkably interesting.

His most recent one is about the politically carved borders in the Middle East. It's utterly fascinating and worth a listen.

"The Middle East seems to be imploding. Dan thinks this is likely all part of a natural process of redrawing artificial borders and re-balancing power relationships. But that doesn't mean it's going to be fun to live through."
posted by four panels at 12:26 PM on July 8, 2014 [11 favorites]


I wonder what will end it?

It won't. Those in power remain in power so long as there is no peace, so there will be no peace.
posted by mhoye at 12:27 PM on July 8, 2014 [10 favorites]


More and more dead children for no reason.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:29 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


I would like it very much if the US stopped taking sides in this, told everyone we disapprove of murderous behavior no matter who started it, and then stay out of it.
posted by Foosnark at 12:31 PM on July 8, 2014 [41 favorites]


Same as it ever was.

For a time I actually had hopes that there were nonviolent ways to end the conflict, to give both peoples self determination and a nation of their own.

I no longer have those hopes. I can't pinpoint when they died, but they're gone. Maybe--maybe--when the old guard literally dies out of the Knesset and younger people take over, on both sides, maybe there'll be substantive dialogue.

Until then it's just going to be I shot you because you shot me because I shot you because you shot me ad infinitum, and it fills me with despair. The British and the IRA managed to initiate and hold a ceasefire, for God's sake. There's so much here that echoes so much of the Troubles, but it seems... worse, somehow. More intense. Both sides much more intransigent.

Children are dying because of this conflict. How does that have no effect on anyone on either side?

Sigh.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:32 PM on July 8, 2014


I would like it very much if the US stopped taking sides in this, told everyone we disapprove of murderous behavior no matter who started it, and then stay out of it.

This thread is no place for humor.
posted by fairmettle at 12:32 PM on July 8, 2014 [14 favorites]




Man, that electronicintifada "article" is some garbage.
posted by rosswald at 12:34 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


I would like it very much if the US stopped taking sides in this, told everyone we disapprove of murderous behavior no matter who started it, and then stay out of it.

Me too. But I should add that the US does exercise some power over the current situation, and they have in the past restrained Israel, so its not that the US should 'stay out of it', its more that they have an active role to play to stop it.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:35 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


Will Israel's "Iron Dome" help bring peace? (60-Minutes)
posted by stbalbach at 12:35 PM on July 8, 2014


My coworkers in Hebron (in the West Bank) haven't been permitted to leave their city for a few weeks now. No one can go in or out.

I get weird reactions when I tell people that we (a criminal defense ngo) work in Palestine. The first reaction from Americans is usually "wait, they have police/courts/lawyers/judges there?," as if the idea that it's not just a lawless series of refugee camps had never occurred to them. Then, although most people don't say anything about it, I can tell that they're trying to figure out what role my organization plays in the I/P conflict, because that is literally all anyone here knows about Palestine, no matter who they support. The notion that we work entirely within the Palestinian court system on internal matters is apparently mindblowing. Like they're saying, what "internal matters" could there possibly be? Don't you know Palestine only exists insofar as it relates to Israel?

I don't even know what I'm getting at here, except to say: Palestine, whether you think of it as a country or not, is a place where lots of people live and work, and they're mostly just... regular people. They're not indistinguishable Muslim hordes, they're not figurines in a global game of Risk, they're not blank slates for us to impose our ideas about what ought to happen or who did what to whom and who ought to pay for it, they're just human beings trying to get on with their lives, completely independent of whatever slapfight we might choose to indulge in on the internet.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:36 PM on July 8, 2014 [201 favorites]


The Arabic press is reporting that the Al Qassam brigades attacked a military base called Zakeem on the shore near Tel Aviv.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:39 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


showbiz_liz, I think the words "refugee camp" imply something other than a civilization to many.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:39 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


the middle east is getting closer and closer to its franz ferdinand moment - someone is going to make a grave miscalculation and all hell will break loose
posted by pyramid termite at 12:41 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Maybe--maybe--when the old guard literally dies out of the Knesset and younger people take over, on both sides, maybe there'll be substantive dialogue.

Or maybe not.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:42 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Iron Dome game
posted by stbalbach at 12:43 PM on July 8, 2014


That sounds depressingly likely. And there's basically not a single thing any of us can do to stop it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:43 PM on July 8, 2014


Is it at all possible the initial kidnapping was not political? Maybe just some sort of psychopath?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:44 PM on July 8, 2014


showbiz_liz, I think the words "refugee camp" imply something other than a civilization to many.

New research from Oxford University contradicts popular assumptions about refugees' dependency and economic status

Although, unlike The Guardian, I couldn't bring myself to extrapolate findings from one region's camps to all camps everywhere, without sampling some in disparately different locations and continents.
posted by infini at 12:47 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Is it at all possible the initial kidnapping was not political? Maybe just some sort of psychopath?

Not mutually exclusive.
posted by el io at 12:49 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]


From the front page link in the post:

Israeli experts often describe Israel’s periodic campaigns in Gaza in terms of “mowing the grass,” a kind of routine maintenance with the limited goals of curbing rocket fire, destroying as much of the militant groups’ infrastructure as possible and restoring deterrence.

“This sort of maintenance needs to be carried out from time to time, perhaps even more often,” Yoav Galant, a former commander of Israel’s southern district, including the area around Gaza, told Army Radio.


This is the system now. It will just go on and on.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:49 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


Both sides have more reason to hate the other than they did two weeks ago, fueling even more extremist sentiment.
I can't see any other way this plays out except more and more dead children.
posted by rocket88 at 12:53 PM on July 8, 2014


those are internal things but I just don't see the structural configuration of the middle east encouraging a general war right now. However if Israel or Iran start talking about declining power, watch out.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:55 PM on July 8, 2014


I have learned from long experience not to spend too much time on these threads, but for those interested in the latest minute-by-minute news in English:

Ha'aretz, a left-wing Israeli paper, has a constantly updated blog: here and constantly updated here.

Lebanon's Daily Star has a slightly sparser newsfeed.

YNet, the internet arm of the largest newspaper in Israel also has live updates.
posted by blahblahblah at 12:56 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


"I no longer have those hopes. I can't pinpoint when they died, but they're gone. Maybe--maybe--when the old guard literally dies out of the Knesset and younger people take over, on both sides, maybe there'll be substantive dialogue."
Meet the younger people taking over, translated from the linked facebook post of a leading young member of the ruling party in the Knesset:
"This is an article by the late Uri Elitzur, which was written 12 years ago, but remained unpublished. It is as relevant today as it was at the time.

The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

And the morality of war knows that it is not possible to refrain from hurting enemy civilians. It does not condemn the British air force, which bombed and totally destroyed the German city of Dresden, or the US planes that destroyed the cities of Poland and wrecked half of Budapest, places whose wretched residents had never done a thing to America, but which had to be destroyed in order to win the war against evil. The morals of war do not require that Russia be brought to trial, though it bombs and destroys towns and neighborhoods in Chechnya. It does not denounce the UN Peacekeeping Forces for killing hundreds of civilians in Angola, nor the NATO forces who bombed Milosevic’s Belgrade, a city with a million civilians, elderly, babies, women, and children. The morals of war accept as correct in principle, not only politically, what America has done in Afghanistan, including the massive bombing of populated places, including the creation of a refugee stream of hundreds of thousands of people who escaped the horrors of war, for thousands of whom there is no home to return to.

And in our war this is sevenfold more correct, because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.

But the week's festivities and respect to both houses of two murderers are vile. I guess they where mourning tents, and the city come to pay my respects to my mom and dad raised the devil. The two houses need to be bombed from the air, to destroy and to kill. And we have to explain that from now on that will happen to every home of a martyr. There is nothing right and probably not even that useful. Each bomber should have known he was taking with him both his parents and his home and neighbors. All UM Jihad hero that sends her son to hell needs to know that she's going with him. Along with the House and all that.

The list cannot be focused. That's war. What is thwart focused preventive and unfocused. We opened this naughty war we could not finish it. The key to a ceasefire in the hands of the Palestinian people. We can only burn their fingers until you want to use them. "
The toxic atmosphere in Israel and the occupied territories grows even more poisonous, as extremists on both sides ratchet up the hate talk.
posted by Blasdelb at 1:02 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


showbiz_liz: what I was hoping after the three kidnapping/murders was to see some charges filed in the Palestinian court system. Is this a realistic expectation? Or was there just not enough time to put a case together? I think taking things to the courts rather than the battlefield has to be part of a solution at some point. Like dealing with post-9/11 terror in civilian courts. The wheels of justice are slow and frustrating, but the wheels of retributive attacks may turn forever.
posted by jetsetsc at 1:04 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I have wondered these past few days--since Israel began hitting back, why Hamas has continued non-stop in what appears a fruitless launching of more and more rockets. Ok. you get pissed for this or that reason and you do this or that. But when Israel decides to hit back in a very hard way, why continue sending rockets to invite further attacks by Israel. Hamas know what Israel can do. They also know the limits of what they can do and the cost to Gaza from Israeli bombings. What, then, keeps them at this seemingly insane course of action?

Egypt no longer is coming to their aid or even acting to try to end things. Jordan is silent.
and then there is the very recent deal between Abbas of the West Bank and Hamas (Gaza) to unite and be perhaps the basis for a future state. But now? Does Abbas side with Hamas or cut ties?
posted by Postroad at 1:06 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Can't we just take the people perpetuating the continual hate on both sides, stick them in Ramat Gan Stadium with clubs, and let them have at it?
posted by Talez at 1:08 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


what I was hoping after the three kidnapping/murders was to see some charges filed in the Palestinian court system. Is this a realistic expectation?

I was under the impression that no one knows who actually did it. Who would be charged?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:08 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Every time someone says hey, maybe we'll beat this climate change problem, people are smart!

...point them to this.
posted by aramaic at 1:10 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


I was under the impression that no one knows who actually did it. Who would be charged?

People on both sides don't give a shit who did it so long as someone's blood from the other side is spilled.
posted by Talez at 1:11 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


What, then, keeps them at this seemingly insane course of action?

it's obvious to me that they want the israeli army to invade gaza - they've had years to prepare for it and probably think they've got some shocking and deadly surprises in store

they could be right
posted by pyramid termite at 1:12 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I came upon this a short time ago and find it helpful

THE TRAGEDY OF THE ARABS, from the current issue of The Economist, neither heavy to the right or the left.
posted by Postroad at 1:14 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


I have wondered these past few days--since Israel began hitting back, why Hamas has continued non-stop in what appears a fruitless launching of more and more rockets.

They need the status quo of violence to maintain their legitimacy.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:14 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]




We've got talking about the enemy as subhuman.

For decades, yeah.
posted by qi at 1:18 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Meet the younger people taking over, translated from the linked facebook post of a leading young member of the ruling party in the Knesset:

I think there's some confusion here. Shaked -- the person you're quoting -- isn't in Likud (Netanyahu's party), she's in Habayit Hayehudi (Jewish Home), part of the ruling coalition but a very different thing. Here she is, interviewed in Ha'aretz in 2012.
posted by escabeche at 1:23 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


I should note while the 'both sides do it' has some merit to it, the two sides we are talking include a) a functioning state with strong formal democracy 2) a nonstate opposition group.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:27 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


From the McClatchy link:

“What happened to us is a very big crisis in our education,” President Shimon Peres said in a meeting with high school students. “In my view the crisis is not just a criminal crisis but a moral crisis. . . . We could not imagine that something so cruel and ugly could happen in our camp.”

*bangs head against wall*
posted by echocollate at 1:39 PM on July 8, 2014


I've been watching this cycle repeat itself for literally my entire adult life. I wonder what will end it?

I was going to point to the North Ireland Peace Process bringing an end to the never-ending bloodshed there as an example for a peaceful resolution to a long-fought war, but I didn't know about the Real Irish Republican Army that splintered off in the wake of the 1997 peace process, or the 2011 murder of a police officer and the vowing of further violence.

There will always be people who are unhappy unless they get everything they want, who are incapable of making peace for anything less. When they have the will to injure others to get what they want, there will always be bloodshed.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:39 PM on July 8, 2014


I have wondered these past few days--since Israel began hitting back, why Hamas has continued non-stop in what appears a fruitless launching of more and more rockets. Ok. you get pissed for this or that reason and you do this or that. But when Israel decides to hit back in a very hard way, why continue sending rockets to invite further attacks by Israel.

I've always figured Hamas's actions were designed to goad an overreaction from Israel to win international sympathy. Hamas can't think they can defeat Israel militarily or change public opinion by murdering Israelis and lobbing rockets at Israeli cities. These are more PR actions than military actions.
posted by echocollate at 1:46 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I lived in Israel during the time of the first Intifada. I was very involved in the Peace Now (Shalom Achshav) movement. I was so young then and I had every hope in the world that we would be living in peace today, even though I was among those searching for the first round of kidnapped soldiers (Avi Sasportas and Ilan Sa'adon). I thought, back then, that when the tiny groups of young Palestinians and Israelis that wanted peace grew strong enough, they would elect someone who was actually interested in peace.

I fear that poe (above) is right and that "even very smart people don't have good solutions for this." I, too, can only feel sad.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:49 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]




Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but I have hopes that if, one day, the US changes its policy towards Israel in the same way that it changed policy towards South Africa there might be the possibility of this war ending.

And perhaps it is overly US-centric of me to imagine that it is the continued support of America that allows the militants on the Israeli side to keep power and continue with a policy of what amounts to slow genocide, but I suppose I keep hoping that simply for the hope that there **CAN** be an end to this other than the extinction of the Palestinians. I think its clear at this point that the Israeli government has the ultimate goal of simply exterminating the Palestinians, and I hope that it is only that the US supports Israel in this that the parties in Israel seeking that outcome can keep winning elections.

At the very least though I want the US out simply because I see no way our involvement is doing anything positive. Cut the losses, get out, and see if perhaps with US support pulled the Israeli government finally starts adopting a non-genocidal policy.
posted by sotonohito at 1:50 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


"The Euro-Mid investigation documented a theft of $370,000 in cash during the 387 incursions it examined, as well as $2.5 million worth of property, including cars, computers, mobile phones and jewelry. The money and property were seized from homes, universities, health clinics, media companies and currency exchanges. Euro-Mid believes, however, that its estimates are on the low end, since families and institutions have not been able to itemize all of their missing items and many thefts have not yet been reported."

Report: Israeli forces stole USD 3 million in cash, property from Palestinians during West Bank raids
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 1:52 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


I think there's some confusion here. Shaked -- the person you're quoting -- isn't in Likud (Netanyahu's party), she's in Habayit Hayehudi (Jewish Home), part of the ruling coalition but a very different thing.

Shaked used to work for Netanyahu. Her husband, Naftali Bennet is the leader of "Jewish Home" Party and former chief of staff for Netanyahu.
Although this is the first time that Bennett has run for office, he is not a political naïf. Between 2006 and 2008, he worked as chief of staff for Netanyahu, who, as the leader of the Likud Party, was then in the opposition. Bennett, along with Ayelet Shaked, a secular woman from Tel Aviv who is in her mid-thirties, ran Netanyahu’s affairs with the hope of returning him to the Prime Minister’s office. But both left abruptly, under circumstances that they won’t discuss. This being Israel, those circumstances are known to all: Bennett and Shaked ran afoul of Netanyahu’s wife, Sara, who is described in the Israeli press as a combination of Mary Todd Lincoln and Nancy Reagan—high-strung, paranoid, intrusive. Sara Netanyahu regarded Bennett and Shaked as suspiciously ambitious, and made their lives impossible. Shaked is now a deputy in Bennett’s movement, and she told me she is convinced that he will be Prime Minister “in ten or fifteen years—he’s made of the right stuff.”
posted by ennui.bz at 2:01 PM on July 8, 2014




The Euro-Mid investigation documented a theft of $370,000 in cash...

The Euro-Mid Observer, chaired by the former director of a Hamas PR group.
posted by Behemoth at 2:10 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]




Also, from the same New Yorker article about Bennet and Shaked:
Meanwhile, Israeli politics continues its seemingly endless trek to the right. Every day, the Web carries the voice of another leader of the settler movement who insists that the settlers are the vanguard now, that the old verities are to be challenged, if not eliminated. Early last year, Benny Katzover, a leader in the settlement of Elon Moreh, told a Chabad paper, Beit Mashiach, “I would say that today Israeli democracy has one central mission, and that is to disappear. Israeli democracy has finished its historical role, and it must be dismantled and bow before Judaism.”
this is where Israeli politics is going...
posted by ennui.bz at 2:13 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]




@qi: Criticism of the Israeli government is not a blanket condemnation of all Israelis, nor all Jews. Take your wild and innaccurate accusations of hate speech elsewhere. If we can't honestly assess the actions of the Israeli government then there is no point in discussing anything.

And the Israeli government is, and has for a very long time, engaged in a program of encouraging illegal settlements, destroying Palestinian infrastructure, and at one point Dov Weisglass, then an official in the Olmert government, anounced that the policy of Israel was to starve Palestine, but not to starve them to death: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger". cite

If the ultimate objective of the Israeli government is not the extermination of the Palestinians, then why does the Israeli government continue to kill Palestinians, demolish Palestinian infrastructure, promote official policies of hunger for Palestinians, and encourage Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory?
posted by sotonohito at 2:21 PM on July 8, 2014 [39 favorites]


the two sides we are talking include a) a functioning state with strong formal democracy 2) a nonstate opposition group.

I'm not entirely sure what opposition means in this context, since Hamas is effectively running the Gaza strip (but alright, they're not formally part of the new government, so opposition against Fatah, I guess). But you're missing the third side, aren't you? -- there's almost 2 million people living in a territory roughly the size of two Manhattans, and I don't think I'm the only one who would prefer if they could be allowed to be more than just a recruiting ground for the Al-Qassam Brigades...
posted by effbot at 2:33 PM on July 8, 2014


I fail to see how claiming " its clear at this point that the Israeli government has the ultimate goal of simply exterminating the Palestinians" is consistent with "honestly assess the actions of the Israeli government".

If they wanted to exterminate the Palestinians they have the means to do so. That they haven't done so is pretty good evidence that they don't want to do so.
posted by Justinian at 2:34 PM on July 8, 2014 [14 favorites]


I was talking with my father in Ashkelon (right near Gaza) a couple hours ago during the 8th or 9th siren today. Granted this was after he had to head to the bomb shelter while visiting his doctor, but, man, he's always been a rational and fairly left wing person for most of my life, and to hear the words he was spewing was right awful. Him and his friends' solution to the current problem - cut all the power lines into Gaza. Since I love to egg him on, I was like, why not just air drop chemicals to kill all their crops and sterilize all the males? He claimed to like the idea, but I think he was half-joking.

And having just googled the electricity idea for fun, apparently it's not an original idea.
posted by gman at 2:35 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


Hamas has been stepping up its attacks on Israel with hundreds of rockets recently. Tel Aviv was just hit. It is amazing, if not surprising, how some people blame Israel for responding to these attacks.
posted by knoyers at 2:37 PM on July 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


If they wanted to exterminate the Palestinians they have the means to do so. That they haven't done so is pretty good evidence that they don't want to do so.

I'm not sure that this follows. That's a course of action which might make the US stop supporting them, for example.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:37 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


Hamas has been stepping up its attacks on Israel with hundreds of rockets recently. Tel Aviv was just hit. It is amazing, if not surprising, how some people blame Israel for responding to these attacks.

There is a huge difference between responding to an attack and bombing people as collective punishment.
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:38 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


Not to mention that, in any other part of the world, Israel's actions with regard to the settlements would be considered a very clear causus belli.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:41 PM on July 8, 2014 [12 favorites]


Hamas has been stepping up its attacks on Israel with hundreds of rockets recently. Tel Aviv was just hit. It is amazing, if not surprising, how some people blame Israel for responding to these attacks.

I feel that it is fair to ask the stronger, more secure party to the violence to step back first.
posted by Aizkolari at 2:42 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


I think its clear at this point that the Israeli government has the ultimate goal of simply exterminating the Palestinians,

I think your quick resort to hyperbole and libel is particularly obscene when it trivializes the real thing going on right next door in Syria.
posted by ocschwar at 2:43 PM on July 8, 2014 [10 favorites]


@Justinian: I can see that argument, and I suppose I should have said "to covertly exterminate the Palestinian people". This isn't the old days when, like the US government did, they can simply send in the army to kill lots of civilians and no one on the international stage will object.

I'm also pretty sure that if the Israeli government openly and directly started committing genocide they'd lose the support of the Israeli people. And even the support for the covert program of slow genocide is not really supported by most Israelis, it's the product of the coalition politics.

But when we look at the continuous destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, the official policy of encouraging hunger in the Palestinian population, the ongoing support for expanding settlements, its difficult to come to any conclusion other than that the Israeli government is seeking slow genocide against the Palestinians.
posted by sotonohito at 2:45 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]


I feel that it is fair to ask the stronger, more secure party to the violence to step back first.

Yea, at the risk of taking this a place it possibly shouldn't go, this is very similar to the arguments of men who want it to be "the same" to punch a girl who slaps them at a bar or whatever, when they're twice her size and easily shrugged off the slap.

On some really, really simplistic and juvenile level it's sort of, maybe, technically justifiable. But it is not equivalent force, and it's coming from a place of security the other side simply doesn't have.

When one side could completely destroy the other side in minutes, and the other party could at best do some minor to low-moderately damage them... then it just isn't a "well they punched me so i get to punch back" thing with no complicating factors.
posted by emptythought at 2:46 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


Sigh. I remember Rabin and when there was a moment of hope. Sob.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:47 PM on July 8, 2014 [12 favorites]


Well, what (if anything) do you think Israel should do in response to those missiles?
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:50 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]



Yea, at the risk of taking this a place it possibly shouldn't go, this is very similar to the arguments of men who want it to be "the same" to punch a girl who slaps them at a bar or whatever, when they're twice her size and easily shrugged off the slap.


You've done precisely that.

A rocket is not something you can just "shrug off." You run the 10 seconds to the nearest designated cover spot, or else you play Russian roulette with yoru life.

True, the cylinder on this gun is much larger than 6 like on a Colt .38. And there is still only one round in it.

But if you're hit, you die. The might of the IDF will not save you.

It is very true that Hamas is not able to inflict large numbers of deaths with the rocket program.

But a death is a death.

Ergo, your analogy is indeed taking this a place it shouldn't go.
posted by ocschwar at 2:50 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]


I agree it's absolutely fair for the stronger party to be expected to back off first but I'd say that only holds true when there is some reasonable expectation that the weaker party will then stop as well. It's less reasonable to ask the stronger party to unilaterally back down while the other side keeps on going.
posted by Justinian at 2:52 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


Err... that shouldn't be taken as support for any particular Israeli policy since there are a large number of bad Israeli policies out there. I'm just saying its more complicated than "the stronger party should stop!"
posted by Justinian at 2:52 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


@dances_with_sneetches, I think he really could have made peace. But that wouldn't do for the religious/rightist elements in Israel so they stirred up so much hate against him that they drove one of their own to kill him. And now those same elements are running the country...
posted by sotonohito at 2:53 PM on July 8, 2014


Well, what (if anything) do you think Israel should do in response to those missiles?

How long before they can fly surveillance drones with 100% 24/7 coverage and just drop a bomb within minutes on any location where a rocket gets fired out?
posted by bukvich at 3:01 PM on July 8, 2014


Well, what (if anything) do you think Israel should do in response to those missiles? Joe in Australia

Deescalate, deescalate, deescalate. Deescalation will happen one way or the other eventually, but probably after a lot more death.

So what is deescalation at this point? Probably could be many forms, but it should be announced. I would suggest small targets, infrastructure rather than human targets.

Not that I'm saying the current Israeli administration has anything in mind other than escalate.

Maybe Carter has the respect to negotiate a cease-fire.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:01 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Israel ought to remove all settlements ["Condemned by 158 out of 166 nations in one vote, and 160 nations out of 171 nations in a different vote, in the UN; The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal, and the United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention"] and revert back to pre-67 borders. Then we'll see about the need for a discussion on "what-to-do about the rockets".
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 3:03 PM on July 8, 2014 [45 favorites]


Maybe Carter has the respect to negotiate a cease-fire.

Wow, that fails the giggle test. Carter? Respect? From the Israelis?

No.
posted by ocschwar at 3:04 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


I think its clear at this point that the Israeli government has the ultimate goal of simply exterminating the Palestinians,

Because most people running an extermination campaign call up the targets to warn them to get out first? Plenty of awful stuff is happening on both sides. There's absolutely no need to talk it up into even more awful stuff.
posted by zachlipton at 3:06 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


In ecology, there is a concept called "resource holding potential" that is used when discussing territoriality. It is kind of an amalgamation of physical ability (size, caloric reserves) and mental resolve. Under that concept, a physically weaker opponent can deter a superior one if it is more convinced that the resource in question rightfully belongs to it (anthropomorphizing wildly here). For example, if two butterflies clash over a territory of blooming flowers, the one that was there first will be more persistent in the fight, and will likely prevail; the newcomer is more apt to give up and go look for his own flowers. But. If you catch the territory-holding butterfly and keep him in a jar for a few hours, another butterfly may settle in and claim his territory. Then, if you release the "original owner", you will have a situation where both butterflies think they are the "rightful owner" of the flowers. They will fight much harder, and much longer than they would otherwise.

I'm not sure that this leads to any useful conclusions, other than "don't be a dick and take butterflies away from their flowers in the first place."
posted by agentofselection at 3:06 PM on July 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


It is true that Israel has a massive force advantage over any Palestinian faction, Hamas or otherwise. Israel has F-16s, helicopters and nuclear weapons and Hamas does not. As important as that is to recognize, however, I don't think it gets to the fundamental asymmetry in this conflict or the timeline of what caused the current situation.

Israelis are occupying Palestinian territory; Palestinians are not occupying Israeli territory. What whyareyouatriangle said is right: any end to the violence will require an end to the occupation. This has to be the starting point of any resolution to the conflict.

(and yes, "effective control" of a territory, as the Israelis have over Gaza, constitutes an occupation according to International Law; not to mention East Jerusalem and the West Bank where the Israeli military is present physically)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:11 PM on July 8, 2014 [14 favorites]


zachlipton: Yes, you would do that if you are walking a PR tightrope. One of the things that gets forgotten is that while the Israel Lobby is powerful, it does have limits. Unrestricted warfare would be a serious test of those.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:11 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


If Israel had "effective control" over Gaza they would probably stop them from firing missiles.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:15 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


note: the headline says Israel bombs Gaza again..

Edit: Israel retaliates after non-stop rockets sent against Israel.
say you live in Maryland and Cuba sent rockets at DC and NYC (Jerusalem and Tel Aviv)...what do you think an appropriate response should be?
posted by Postroad at 3:17 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


There is a huge difference between responding to an attack and bombing people as collective punishment.
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:38 PM on July 8


Collective punishment has become a loaded term against Israel. Any and all warfare is inevitably "collective punishment" to a degree. In this warfare, Palestinians are the ones who indiscriminately target civilians with their rockets.

Not to mention that, in any other part of the world, Israel's actions with regard to the settlements would be considered a very clear causus belli.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:41 PM on July 8

Whatever one thinks of the settlements, a country's right to defend itself against the attacks of its enemies isn't contingent on meeting some particular standard of fairness as a society.

I feel that it is fair to ask the stronger, more secure party to the violence to step back first.
posted by Aizkolari at 2:42 PM on July 8 [+]


If, for example, you are American, and America was attacked by a weaker enemy, I doubt you would apply this standard and want your leaders to passively ignore the attack. The weak don't have a special right to be freely violent relative to the strong, without expecting a response. In this case, the response isn't just expected, it was very much deliberately provoked.
posted by knoyers at 3:19 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]


I feel that it is fair to ask the stronger, more secure party to the violence to step back first.

While you are of course entitled to your feelings, that's ... just not how geopolitics works. Israel is a basically democratic country with a substantial military and full of citizens with expectations from their government that include things like ensuring they aren't subjected to random rocket attacks. If someone fires rockets across the border, the people who are put at risk are going to demand that their government do something to stop it, using the military if that appears to be the effective and expedient solution.

Expecting Israel to do anything else is unrealistic.

I can't think of any other country which is expected to stand idly by while people fling ordnance across the border, with the sole exception of perhaps South Korea. And they're forced to suck it up because, realistically, they don't have the option of taking the fight over to the DPRK's side of the border. If they could, I'm sure their citizens would demand that.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:22 PM on July 8, 2014 [10 favorites]


say you live in Maryland and Cuba sent rockets at DC and NYC

Not sure that's helpful, really. This is a low-intensity conflict that's been going on since at least 1946. Every single thing that happens is one side retaliating for something the other side did before...
posted by effbot at 3:27 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


See, my viewpoint is that if you don't want acts of war targeted at you, perhaps you should not be engaging in acts of war yourself.

And the settlements are very much acts of war.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:27 PM on July 8, 2014 [20 favorites]


The population of the Palestinian Territories has been growing at a rate of about 1M per decade. If that's "extermination", I'm not sure we're speaking the same language.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:27 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


#BBCtrending: Are #GazaUnderAttack images accurate?

In light of their history of doctored pics and video, it would be considerably more surprising if they weren't faked.
posted by jpe at 3:28 PM on July 8, 2014


@qi: Criticism of the Israeli government is not a blanket condemnation of all Israelis

You're accusing Israel of officially sanctioning extermination of Palestinians. In other words genocide.

Take your wild and innaccurate accusations of hate speech

They are neither.

If we can't honestly assess the actions of the Israeli government

You're accusing them of deliberately exterminating Palestinians and you think that's "being honest"

then there is no point in discussing anything.

You entered into this conversation accusing israel of extermination of palestinians. The idea that anyone is being dishonest about Israel's motives in contrast to that is laughable.

And the Israeli government is, and has for a very long time, engaged in a program of encouraging illegal settlements,

Also not extermination.

destroying Palestinian infrastructure

In direct response to Palestinian aggression against Israel, including rocket attacks and straight up murder of innocent civilians in non-military areas especially throughout the last decade and a half.

Still not extermination.

, and at one point Dov Weisglass, then an official in the Olmert government, anounced that the policy of Israel was to starve Palestine, but not to starve them to death: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger".

This is the worst case you list and its definitely creepy and wrong, and the only one you mention that could be considered an extermination policy. But the purpose of Gaza blockade was to protect Egypt and Israel from Gazan rockets and bombers and the recognition of Hamas as a legitimate rulers of Gaza. Or are you also accusing Egypt of having a extermination policy toward Gaza?

If the ultimate objective of the Israeli government is not the extermination of the Palestinians, then why does the Israeli government continue to kill Palestinians,

The stated goals of Fatah, the PLO and Hamas when founded: to kill Zionist Jews & eliminate Israel's existence as a Jewish state through armed aggression. PLO changed their tune in '93 and recognized Israel. Fatah and Hamas contiue to refuse to recognize a Jewish state. So does the PA

encourage Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory?

They withdrew from Gaza voluntarily back in 2005. 757 missiles from Gaza hit Israel between the withdrawal and the end of June 2006. Operation "Summer Rains" started after. Look how well that turned out. The West Bank settlements are illegal and Israel should dismantle them and remove the settlers by force. The Settlements are evidence of illegal Isreali land seizure but not Palestinian extermination or genocide.
posted by qi at 3:28 PM on July 8, 2014 [10 favorites]


Yeah, the Palestinian Territories have one of the fastest growing populations in the world. Calling it an extermination, slow or otherwise, is just stupid.
posted by Justinian at 3:29 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


The reason some expect Israel to step back first is the same reason that no one blinks an eye when a good student earns an A. People expect better from Israel.
posted by kat518 at 3:36 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Maybe we should back off the "extermination" derail and discuss the current situation instead?
posted by zachlipton at 3:38 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


People expect better from Israel.

How many rockets have to land in Israel before they're saintly enough to fight back?
posted by qi at 3:39 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


Mod note: Yes, let's try to drop the "extermination" derail and discuss the current situation instead
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:40 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate." - Martin Luther King.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Matthew.
posted by Thing at 3:41 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israel is a basically democratic country with a substantial military

which is occupying land full of millions of non-citizens who have no rights in that democracy

it hasn't worked - it isn't working - and it won't ever work
posted by pyramid termite at 3:41 PM on July 8, 2014 [41 favorites]


How many rockets have to land in Israel before they're saintly enough to fight back?

Let's not pretend both sides don't have legitimate grievances, here. This isn't a case of some people bombing some other people out of the blue for no comprehensible reason, just for fun.

No, that doesn't mean I think it's justified.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:41 PM on July 8, 2014 [7 favorites]




"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Matthew.

Hold on -- those Israelis aren't good Christians?
posted by mr. digits at 3:44 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


Yeah, what does the Gospel of Matthew have to do with either Israelis or Palestinians? Seems kinda culturally hegemonic.
posted by Justinian at 3:45 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]




Let's not pretend both sides don't have legitimate grievances, here.

There's no pretense. "Since 2001, more than 12,800 rockets and mortars, an average of 3 attacks every single day, have landed in Israel." The Palestinians do have legitimate grievances. Do those grievances justify nearly thirteen thousand rocket & mortar attacks? Twenty thousand? Thirty? How many rockets and mortars before an Israeli military response will be considered acceptable? If Israel is expected to hold itself to a higher standard, then define it. Be honest that they're already holding themselves to one that no other country would ever voluntarily agree to. The US wouldn't. If Mexico started shelling non-military targets like towns and cities with hundreds of homemade rockets and mortars our own Yeehadists would demand war.
posted by qi at 4:06 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


I wonder about the casualties in that WaPo video. How did the victims fail to receive the warning call? Did their cells run out of power? Maybe they just chose to ignore an incoming call from an unknown number. I know I do sometimes.
posted by klue at 4:15 PM on July 8, 2014




"...before they're saintly enough to fight back"
You are using these words, but I do not think they mean what you must think they mean.
posted by Blasdelb at 4:21 PM on July 8, 2014


It's called sarcasm.
posted by qi at 4:41 PM on July 8, 2014




The occupation itself is an ongoing act of war. The Gaza Strip is a giant prison camp.
posted by empath at 4:43 PM on July 8, 2014 [29 favorites]


If Mexico started shelling non-military targets like towns and cities with hundreds of homemade rockets and mortars our own Yeehadists would demand war.

When did we occupy Mexico?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:44 PM on July 8, 2014 [10 favorites]


The occupation of their territory, replete with illegal settlements, justify the rocket attacks

It's your argument that indiscriminate attacks on civilians are a justified response to occupation? I mean, I can see arguing that armed resistance is a justified response to occupation. But you're flat-out saying that widespread attempts to murder civilians is an appropriate response?

Do you think the IRA were justified, then?
posted by Justinian at 4:45 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


When did we occupy Mexico?

1848.
posted by Justinian at 4:46 PM on July 8, 2014 [18 favorites]


The occupation of their territory, replete with illegal settlements, justify the rocket attacks

I recommend you watch the excellent movie Clearcut that investigates abstractions such as these.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:59 PM on July 8, 2014


It's your argument that indiscriminate attacks on civilians are a justified response to occupation?

It's called asynchronous warfare. It's the path the US has decided to go down with regard to terrorism. The Palestinians have about as much ability to mount a frontal armed attack against Israel as Al-Quieda has in attacking the US.

I'm not a fan of attacking civilians, but at some point it becomes understandable. Last night the news had a story about a teenager killed by Israeli military. These same soldiers gave his cousin a beating he was lucky to survive. My first thought when watching that was, "If I were that kid I'd shot the next Israeli soldier I could find." My second thought was, "Well, that would just make that kid dead." So yeah, while firing off a rocket in the general direction isn't exactly a master plan, it beats trying to make an armed uprising against a country that controls your tax revenue, denies you a voice in government, and has a shitload of international backing.

At some point you get tired of it and you fire the fucking rocket. Also, these rockets haven't exactly been surgical drone strike like the US mounts. They are hand-me-down or homemade rockets with questionable efficacy.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:02 PM on July 8, 2014 [9 favorites]


Yeah, I know what asynchronous warfare is and how it relates to the roots of terrorism. But I note you're describing it and not saying whether it is justified. Which allows us all to sidestep hard questions but isn't exactly responsive to the question.
posted by Justinian at 5:07 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


(I note again that you could just as easily be talking about the IRA and the British.)
posted by Justinian at 5:07 PM on July 8, 2014


One of the mistakes I made for too long is viewing the conflict as my own person, which is necessary, but it's illuminating to view struggle through a culture and upbringing very different than your own. We know this rationally, of course, but even with books we so often gravitate to interests already aligned to our own.

'5 Broken Cameras' is a documentary centering on the day-to-day of the region from the viewpoint of Palestinian children. Immeditely you may recoil, certain it will be "one way" or "the other way." Children are endlessly used to further adult positions.

But if I could implore MeFi members - it's a very kind, honest, heartfelt and sincere lens into what is happening right now, and what's been happening for some time. It's not so political as it is human.

It doesn't document the evils or moral triumphs of one side or the other. It simply shines a klieg light into the day the day existence of a group of people, caught up in the turmoil, each day anew.

It's on Hulu Plus, if you have it, Google Play for rent, or if you overlook the unrelated political nature of the uploader free here in HD on YouTube.

It would be worth your time to give it a watch, and you may expand your own view, or even your mind. Or at least see the world very differently through someone else. Not bad for 90 minutes of your time.
posted by four panels at 5:08 PM on July 8, 2014 [7 favorites]


When did we occupy Mexico?

Justinian is off by three years. It was 1845.
posted by bukvich at 5:09 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


@Justinian, actually I do rather think the IRA's cause was justified. Their methods, like the methods of Palestinian combatants, I'm not so sure about.

I don't like attacks on civilians, nor yet indiscriminate attacks. On the gripping hand, there really isn't much else they have. Israel has fancy guided bombs and whatnot, and apparently the view of many people is that attacking with fancy weapons is good, while attacking with primitive weapons is bad.

As for attacks, clearly the Palestinians are on the losing side, over seven times more Palestinian civilians have been killed than Israeli civilians.

It's difficult to see Israel as anything but the aggressor here since that government is actively engaging in the destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, and supporting displacement policies in the form of illegal settlements. To reverse the question asked earlier about how many rocket attacks Israel must endure before they are justified in retaliation, how many settlements must Palestine endure before they are justified in retaliating? And since Israel is the aggressor, really can anything Israel does be truly termed retaliation?

I don't like dead civilians. I don't like indiscriminate attacks.

But peaceable means don't seem to have achieved anything (the current leadership of Israel drove the murderous rage that resulted in the last Israeli politician who seriously tried to settle things peacefully being assassinated by an Israeli right winger), and at some point it is unreasonable to tell a people that it is wrong for them to fight back when they've been pushed out of their homes, had their infrastructure demolished specifically to make them suffer and make their quality of life worse, and had their land taken. How can I say that those Palestinians who take up arms against such aggression are wrong? How can I say that they must stand back and do nothing while Israeli bulldozers smash power and water stations, and Israeli "settlers" take their land and homes?

Surely, at some point, the moral impetus rests on the aggressor to stop aggressing?

I can't and won't say that it was wrong of Mandela to take up violence against the aggression of white South Africans against him and his people. I can't and won't say it was wrong for the IRA to take up violence against the aggression of the British against them and their people. And on that note I can't and won't say it is wrong for the Palestinians to take up violence against the aggression Israel against them. I don't like it. I don't want dead civilians, blown up buildings, and general chaos.

But if peaceful means for ending an aggression have failed, then I would argue that violence is justified.
posted by sotonohito at 5:17 PM on July 8, 2014 [31 favorites]


Yeah, I know what asynchronous warfare is and how it relates to the roots of terrorism. But I note you're describing it and not saying whether it is justified. Which allows us all to sidestep hard questions but isn't exactly responsive to the question.

(I note again that you could just as easily be talking about the IRA and the British.)


It's totally not justified. Most acts of war aren't.

The difference between the IRA and the British is that a solution was found there. Every solution presented here has been rejected by one side or the other.

Also, if we're going to make an analogy, I would suggest African Apartheid is a better one.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:19 PM on July 8, 2014 [6 favorites]


I do rather think the IRA's cause was justified.

Jean McConville and her family might disagree.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:20 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Justinian is off by three years. It was 1845.

That really depends on how you look at it, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed in 1848. But this may be just sliiiightly off topic so lets just agree it was in the 1840s!
posted by Justinian at 5:21 PM on July 8, 2014


Also, everyone kills civilians.

There's a large difference between an attack on a military target which also kills civilians and and attack which is specifically intended to kill civilians. How is that even a debate? We have tended to hang (or at least lock up forever) people who confuse the two? There are edge cases of course as with unrestricted submarine warfare or whatever but no-one ever seriously argues that there isn't a difference at all.
posted by Justinian at 5:23 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I am not a Catholic, so I am not linking to this as one, but I do agree with their Just War Doctrine. Read it and ask yourself, Do the Israelis have a Just war? Now, reread it and ask, Do the Palestinians have a Just War? Sadly, I am able to answer yes both times, which just goes to show how fucked this is. Your answer may differ.

There's a large difference between an attack on a military target which also kills civilians and and attack which is specifically intended to kill civilians. How is that even a debate?

Because intent doesn't much matter to the mothers of dead children?
posted by cjorgensen at 5:26 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Maybe we could provide the Palestinians with smart bombs so they can only accidentally kill civilians as collateral damage.
posted by empath at 5:27 PM on July 8, 2014 [15 favorites]


Because intent doesn't much matter to the mothers of dead children?

Probably it does not. It does, however, matter a great deal when it comes to legality and morality.
posted by Justinian at 5:29 PM on July 8, 2014


Probably it does not. It does, however, matter a great deal when it comes to legality and morality.

We can agree on the first assertion and disagree on the second, right?
posted by cjorgensen at 5:34 PM on July 8, 2014


Yeah, what does the Gospel of Matthew have to do with either Israelis or Palestinians? Seems kinda culturally hegemonic.

It's true that most Palestinian Christians are now in the diaspora, but at the time the state of Israel was founded, there definitely were 3 religions cohabiting in the region. And if you find yourself forgetting there's millions of people on either end of those weapons each with a separate viewpoint on why they're a member of the country they're in, it's worth remembering that Israel is composed of people from all 3 of those traditions, and Palestine composed of 2 of them.
posted by ambrosen at 5:37 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


There's a large difference between an attack on a military target which also kills civilians and and attack which is specifically intended to kill civilians. How is that even a debate? We have tended to hang (or at least lock up forever) people who confuse the two? There are edge cases of course as with unrestricted submarine warfare or whatever but no-one ever seriously argues that there isn't a difference at all.

I disagree with all your statements.


Then you disagree with the Geneva Conventions and the entire corpus of laws of armed conflict accrued over centuries.

Which is a pretty typical level of flippant arrogance for Mefites.
posted by ocschwar at 5:40 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


Also, if we're going to make an analogy, I would suggest African Apartheid is a better one.

Though it may be a popular analogy, this has always struck me as silly. The Palestinians have had two great opportunities to have their own state, which they rejected. Something which Chechens, Kurds, Basques, Uighurs, etc. etc. would jump at.

The population sizes of the two populations is way different from Apartheid South Africa.

And lastly the history of the conflict is way different. The conflict started (and continues to be based on) a war that was fought between two sides. There was never a gross enslavement of one population by another.

I think the occupation should end, but I don't think bending words and history makes a legitimate argument
posted by rosswald at 5:47 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


At some point you get tired of it and you fire the fucking rocket.

That implies you have rockets on hand for such an occasion, the way I keep money on hand to buy lunch for days I'm too harried to make myself a sandwhich.

That's not quite how this works.

To fire the rocket, first you have to dig up some sewer pipe from the streets. Gaza's already pretty short on that material, which is why they are now wading in their own sewage, now that most of their sewer lines are stored as spent rockets in the police impound lot in Sderot.

Then you have to put the fuel together. And weld a cap and some wings on the rocket. Then position the thing and fire it. This is not a decision of some put upon underdog. It's decided as policy by Hamas and its rivals in Gaza.


At some point you get tired of it and you fire the fucking rocket. Also, these rockets haven't exactly been surgical drone strike like the US mounts. They are hand-me-down or homemade rockets with questionable efficacy.


So what? It's not like they want a particular Israeli to die. Any Israeli will do. As for their efficacy, they're efficacious enough.
posted by ocschwar at 5:48 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm surprised anyone here is arguing in favor of attacks on civilians, and more surprised that they aren't immediately shouted down.

Cjorgensen wrote: intent doesn't much matter to the mothers of dead children

I'm not even sure your statement is correct, but in any event the laws of war are meant to protect living children. In the absence of those laws there would be many more grieving mothers, because civilians are easy targets.

Hal_c_on wrote: legality and morality take on this ambiguous meaning in warfare. It's an afterthought, not a determinant for action.

That's not true, and a soldier acting that way would rightly be tried as a war criminal.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:49 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


I'd love it if the Geneva Conventions was used as a basis for all military action. But it's not, and you don't know much about war or you're an idiot commander if you think those are the standards in warfare.
posted by hal_c_on


Do you think all people who served in the armed services are evil? I mean, I am being slightly facetious, but there are plenty of documented cases of militaries doing as much as possible (and sometimes even cancelling operations) to save lives.

And of course there are examples going the other way, but you are using a pretty big brush their chum.
posted by rosswald at 5:51 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Quit putting words in my mouth.

Your exact words, in that context, very clearly stated that you disagree with the letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions. Speak more carefully if you don't want your words taken to their logicall conclusion,
posted by ocschwar at 5:54 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also, these rockets haven't exactly been surgical drone strike like the US mounts. They are hand-me-down or homemade rockets with questionable efficacy.

Syrian-made M302 rocket fired by Hamas at Hadera
In March, the Israel Navy intercepted an Iranian arms ship destined for Gaza, which included 40 Syrian made M302 rockets that had a range of between 90 to 160 kilometers.
I think the missile they're referring to is this: Khaibar-1. The name apparently refers to the Battle of Khaybar, an early Islamic battle against a Jewish town.

Hamas rockets reach Jerusalem and Tel Aviv
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:00 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Context in italics.
Your words in bold.



There's a large difference between an attack on a military target which also kills civilians and and attack which is specifically intended to kill civilians. How is that even a debate? We have tended to hang (or at least lock up forever) people who confuse the two? There are edge cases of course as with unrestricted submarine warfare or whatever but no-one ever seriously argues that there isn't a difference at all.

I disagree with all your statements.


The difference between an attack on a military target and an attack aimed at civilians is explicitly mentioned in the Conventions.

If you disagree with "all" that context, then you disagree with the letter and spirit of the GCs.

Speak more carefully if you don't want your words to be taken to a logical conclusion you don't like. Especially if that logical conclusion is nothing less than an apologia for war crimes.
posted by ocschwar at 6:03 PM on July 8, 2014


I am not a Catholic, so I am not linking to this as one, but I do agree with their Just War Doctrine. Read it and ask yourself, Do the Israelis have a Just war? Now, reread it and ask, Do the Palestinians have a Just War? Sadly, I am able to answer yes both times, which just goes to show how fucked this is. Your answer may differ.

I am familiar with the concept of Just War Theory, but I am not so familiar with it that I can wield the theory like a sword to win an internet argument.

The fact of the matter is that there is sorrow in war.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:06 PM on July 8, 2014


No one has suggested one big dance-off for the territories, winner take all.

It's an avenue to explore.
posted by delfin at 6:08 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


I am an American and I lived in the West Bank.
If the sort of whole-sale land thievery that I witnessed by the settlers occurred in my neighborhood here in the U.S. by some outside aggressor, there would be a hell of a lot more guns in the streets. Americans wouldn't tolerate it.
And we expect the Palestinians to just watch as their ancestral orchards and brick-and-mortar inheritance is literally taken from them by force by outsiders under the watchful eye of a powerful military.
There really aren't two sides to this issue - and I haven't met a single American who spent time in the West Bank who feels there's any balance to this mess. And even if, somehow, peace can be found it will take centuries for the wind and rain to wash away the scar that the wall has carved into the Holy Land.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 6:14 PM on July 8, 2014 [41 favorites]


I disagree because there is no difference. The end result is dead civilians.


Car crashes also result in dead civilians. The difference is there. It's codified in the Geneva Conventions. If you disagree, then you disagree with the Geneva Conventions.

Own your words and be ready to eat them
posted by ocschwar at 6:18 PM on July 8, 2014


I'd love it if the Geneva Conventions was used as a basis for all military action. But it's not, and you don't know much about war or you're an idiot commander if you think those are the standards in warfare.

Many countries actually do respect the Geneva conventions. There's little reason not to do so.

Notice that the Geneva conventions don't ban nuclear weapons, which are horrible but militarily useful. In contrast, deliberately targeting homes, schools and hospitals for conventional bombing doesn't actually accomplish much as a way of winning a war. Likewise, torture isn't actually a very good way of gaining information. Countries agree to ban weapons and tactics only when their barbarity far exceeds their military effectiveness. That's why non-monstrous countries play by those rules - they lose little military effectiveness by doing so and gain reduced frightfulness inflicted on their own citizens. Even the Nazis played along part of the time, notably by not using battlefield chemical weapons.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:19 PM on July 8, 2014


More and more dead children for no reason.

Related: The New Way of War: Killing The Kids
posted by raztaj at 6:27 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


One of my (Palestinian) college roommate's nephews in Gaza is trapped under his bombed house as of an hour ago, and presumed dead.
He wanted to be a mobile app developer. We had talked about the IT industry back when he was in middle and high school.
I brought him a proscribed laptop years ago, because as a Jewish American, I could get it through the checkpoints with a minimum of bribes. Among other things, he used the laptop to set up mesh wifi internet networks during the Egyptian Spring, with some software I guided him to, to help other members of the family living in Cairo.

It's likely one of my younger Israeli cousins, or their friends, was in the jet that bombed my roommate's family's home.
Did I ever mention there is an illegal Israeli settlement on some of their confiscated family farm and olive grove, west of the UN-condemned Green Line?

I am praying for comfort and peace for everyone.
Because apparently, that is all I can do.
posted by Dreidl at 6:29 PM on July 8, 2014 [48 favorites]


It's likely one of my younger Israeli cousins, or their friends, was in the jet that bombed my roommate's family's home.

This is why this conversation about collateral damage is ridiculous- as if only one side of this conflict was killing civilians. It's bad when Palestinians do it. It's bad when Israelis do it. It's all bad. And it's all tragic, because all of these people "know" that they "have" to do these things.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:32 PM on July 8, 2014 [4 favorites]




What I am saying is this: once you open the floodgates of warfare, it's a free-for all.

It's not, but more importantly, your fatalism on points like this is fuel for those who espouse statements like this with relish.
posted by fatbird at 6:38 PM on July 8, 2014


Please show me the part in the Geneva about civilians as collateral damage. I'm asking for this education, as I'd actually like to read this.

Probably the most relevant are articles 51 and 52 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Convention.
posted by Justinian at 6:38 PM on July 8, 2014


I see ocschwar has linked article 51 while I was googling which article it was.
posted by Justinian at 6:38 PM on July 8, 2014


Please show me the part in the Geneva about civilians as collateral damage. I'm asking for this education, as I'd actually like to read this.

Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions, Sections 51 and 54.

You're not allowed to target civilians - bombing with the goal of killing them.

"Indiscriminate" attacks are prohibited. Bombing must be aimed at "a specific military objective."

What's not prohibited is collateral damage. If you are attacking a specific military target but some civilians are in the way, it is sometimes OK to attack the target knowing that the civilians will die. (conditions apply)

Example: It's a war crime to blow up a school because you want to murder a bunch of children. It's not a war crime to bomb an enemy command post that's been set up in the school gymnasium.

What the Geneva conventions are trying to tell us is that civilians will always die in wars, which is why we should try to stop having wars, but that doesn't mean soldiers should be permitted to run around massacring civilians like the Mongol hordes. The US has killed a lot of civilians lately but they're not in the same monstrous class as Imperial Japan.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:40 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


The military objective must also be proportionate. That's where I think Israel fails a lot of the time; you can't level a block because one militant has a home there.
posted by Justinian at 6:44 PM on July 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


Nice to see 5 years on I am consistent in my views. If I'd had an edit window back then I would have corrected PT to PR. The rest stands.

So what? It's not like they want a particular Israeli to die. Any Israeli will do. As for their efficacy, they're efficacious enough.

Right. That's how asynchronous warfare is fought. Also, one photo of a living child who is missing half a leg actually supports my argument. That's not a very effective missile/rocket attack at all. Yes, hitting a kid sucks. I am pretty sure that's not what the guy firing the rocket meant to happen. It actually gives sympathy to the enemy. That's pretty fucking shitty efficacy.

The other side can put a bomb down a chimney of the opposition live on TV.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:45 PM on July 8, 2014


Everyone is trying to hurt people they perceive as other, the other who hurt them. Parts of my families are attacking each other.
More hurt is not going to repair anything or bring back any of the dead.

I'd better get offline, pray my afternoon and evening prayers, and say Kaddish for my roommate's nephew.

The last major prayer I will ritually say this evening is Shalom Rav -

Let there be abundant peace
for Israel Your people and
for all living on earth forever.
For there is a ruling Source of peace
May this Source find it good
to see the blessing of Your people Israel
and all peoples everywhere and all times
with wholeness/completion/peace.

posted by Dreidl at 6:46 PM on July 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


Showbiz _liz wrote: This is why this conversation about collateral damage is ridiculous- as if only one side of this conflict was killing civilians.

Do you actually know that the nephew is a civilian, and that the target wasn't a military installation? It's even possible that Dreidl is mistaken about the events - Hamas' rockets are frequently lethal to the people around them, and there are regular reports of Palestinians killed when one misfires or falls short. It's worth reading this: WHAT REPORTERS NEED TO KNOW during Operation Protective Edge.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:48 PM on July 8, 2014


I'd just like to point out that hal_c_on made a good faith request for information and got what he was asking for from several people. Awesome. I don't know if that information will change his mind, but any disagreement we have going forward is likely to be a lot more constructive.

Isn't this an Israel/Palestine thread? Aren't we supposed to stop listening to each other, dig in our heels and flail blindly at straw men? Why are we behaving like grown-ups all of a sudden?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:49 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Right. That's how asynchronous warfare is fought. Also, one photo of a living child who is missing half a leg actually supports my argument. That's not a very effective missile/rocket attack at all. Yes, hitting a kid sucks. I am pretty sure that's not what the guy firing the rocket meant to happen. It actually gives sympathy to the enemy. That's pretty fucking shitty efficacy.


You are giving a factual description (though for mercy's sake it's assymetric, not asynchronous) but turning itt into an implicit apologia. Poor form.

And you're getting the details wrong. Hamas strives to time the rockets particularly for the morning and afternoon bells to maximize the chance of hitting kids. They've explicitly decided Jewish kids are fair game.
posted by ocschwar at 6:50 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe, are you seriously suggesting, absent any evidence whatsoever, that this dead kid was probably secretly an enemy soldier whose death is acceptable?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:51 PM on July 8, 2014 [16 favorites]


So if one side of a conflict has the ability to strike military targets at will, and the other side doesn't, then basically any amount of property destruction and killing of civilians and children done by one side is perfectly okay, while significantly less destruction and death caused by the other side is an affront to humanity?
posted by empath at 6:54 PM on July 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


I received a text from someone I've known since college, about a boy I have met and had substantial discussions with several times, in a house I have been to, belonging to a family I have visited with all over North America, Europe, and the Middle East.

No doubt some of the Palestinian family are militants (though they despise Hamas as religious bigots and tolerate Fatah as a gang of corruption), just as some of my entirely secular Israeli cousins are in the IDF.

Regardless of who else was in that house, a young man has been unnecessarily killed and a refugee family's home destroyed. How is this going to make the world better?
posted by Dreidl at 6:58 PM on July 8, 2014 [18 favorites]


[…] for mercy's sake it's assymetric, not asynchronous […]

Thanks for the correction. My brain flipped the two today. As an English major I have no idea why. Probably the rum. I do feel admonished.

You are giving a factual description […] but turning itt into an implicit apologia. Poor form.

Yeah, facts are so pesky. i'm not being an apologist. I just refuse to be a propagandist. I think both sides are fuckheads. Strangely, I can usually express this opinion about one side without people calling me names and saying I am a bigot. Say the exact same thing about the other and suddenly I an un-American and an asshole.

I think the killing will go on for as long as people believe a "two state solution" is a solution. I honestly believe there's no way to discuss this other than to actually stick to facts. Once you start putting in perceived motives, politics, justifications, whathaveyous, then everything goes sideways.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:00 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]



So if one side of a conflict has the ability to strike military targets at will, and the other side doesn't, then basically any amount of property destruction and killing of civilians and children done by one side is perfectly okay, while significantly less destruction and death caused by the other side is an affront to humanity?


Read the Geneva Conventions.

It is not wrong to have an advantage over your enemy. It is wrong to target civilians without a legitimate military aim.

Yes, Israel can kill many more than Hamas can. The Internet is full of people moaning that for every 10 dead Palestinians there is only one dead Israeli. Well, 10 times 0 is 0.
posted by ocschwar at 7:04 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Now look at paragraph c. Does that not mean that any "collateral damage" is against the c. If you bomb a hideout, but you can't prevent those bombs from burning up the school 50 feet away, is that not against the conventions?


No, it is not. The hideout is legitimate. That makes the bombing legitimate.

You're grasping at straws trying to fit the GC's around your views.

Just own your decision and admit you don't care for the GCs and disagree with them.

Yeah, facts are so pesky. i'm not being an apologist. I just refuse to be a propagandist.

You are presenting the facts in a fashion that implies an apologia for Hamas's war crimes. Very poor form. Yes, Hamas cannot wage effective war against the IDF without commiting atrocities. To a man with morals, that implies Hamas is obliged to cease and desist.
posted by ocschwar at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


Read the Geneva Conventions.

"In 2004 the International Court of Justice, in an advisory, non-binding opinion, noted that the Security Council had described Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in the occupied territories as a "flagrant violation" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Court also concluded that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established "in breach of international law" and that all the States parties to the Geneva Convention are under an obligation to ensure compliance by Israel with international law as embodied in the Convention."

No one in this conflict is respecting the Geneva Conventions.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2014 [14 favorites]


Joe, are you seriously suggesting, absent any evidence whatsoever, that this dead kid was probably secretly an enemy soldier whose death is acceptable?

The distinction between combatants and non-combatants is a very tenuous one that we cling to in order to reduce the number of deaths overall. I actually don't want anyone to die, civilian or combatant, and there are very few circumstances in which I would say that a death was "acceptable". I'm saying that neither of us knows that he was a civilian - or in fact his age; Dreidl didn't say. Hamas and other militia don't wear uniforms and my understanding is that combatants' affiliation generally only becomes public when they receive a military funeral or receive some other public recognition. But even assuming that he wasn't a combatant, the great number of explosions in Gaza caused by misfirings means we don't actually know that the home was destroyed by the IDF, or (if it was) what reason they had for doing so.

My greatest fear is that Dreidl's view is correct:
Regardless of who else was in that house, a young man has been unnecessarily killed and a refugee family's home destroyed. How is this going to make the world better?
Past experience has shown that IDF bombings are only effective at reducing Hamas' attacks for months, at best. What if there is literally no way for Israel to stop Hamas firing rockets? What then?
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Now look at paragraph c. Does that not mean that any "collateral damage" is against the c. If you bomb a hideout, but you can't prevent those bombs from burning up the school 50 feet away, is that not against the conventions?

It depends on things like proportionality. The answer is "it depends".
posted by Justinian at 7:09 PM on July 8, 2014


Read the Geneva Conventions.

Quite frankly, I don't care what the Geneva Conventions say. They're a legal construct, not a moral one. And they get ignored routinely by all sides of a conflict.
posted by empath at 7:11 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


They're a legal construct, not a moral one.

A legal construct that codifies a moral one:
The moral difference between waging war against combatants versus targeting civilians.

But hey, there's no real moral difference. Right?
posted by ocschwar at 7:14 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


empath: Quite frankly, I don't care what the Geneva Conventions say.

Don't have much to add to the plain quote, it sort of speaks for itself.
posted by Justinian at 7:15 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


A legal construct that codifies a moral one:

The moral one being the pretense that there is a moral way to fight a war.
posted by empath at 7:16 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


The moral one being the pretense that there is a moral way to fight a war.


So there is no difference in your eyes between targeting civilians or targeting combatants.
posted by ocschwar at 7:18 PM on July 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


So there is no difference in your eyes between targeting civilians or targeting combatants.

There's no difference in my mind between civilians being killed intentionally and civilians being killed as a predictable side effect of targeting 'combatants'.
posted by empath at 7:19 PM on July 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


There's no difference in my mind between civilians being killed intentionally and civilians being killed as a predictable side effect of targeting 'combatants'.


Or civilians dying in a car crash. All the same, right?
posted by ocschwar at 7:20 PM on July 8, 2014


But thank you, empath.

It is clear that in your view of the world, a man firing a rocket at 7:50 AM with the intent of maximizing the chance of hitting kids running to the morning school bell is on the same moral plane as the man patrolling the sky over Gaza, who notices this and sends an air-to-ground missile, hitting the first rocketeer and some gawkers who are standing with him.

No difference whatsoever.
posted by ocschwar at 7:23 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


This seems like a pretty good way to get an overview of what has been going on: the incident alerts page from GANSO (Gaza NGO Safety Organisation), an EU NGO that looks after the safety of other NGOs in Gaza.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:29 PM on July 8, 2014


Empath, are you a pacifist? That's not a gotcha question or anything it's just the best way I know to reconcile your position.
posted by Justinian at 7:30 PM on July 8, 2014


Apparently Hamas launched (and took credit for) a sea-attack earlier, sending in five marine units. Algeiminer and some other sites have a video IDF Foils Palestinian Terror Attack Launched From Sea Near Gaza (NSFW!)
posted by rosswald at 7:33 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


This microscopic focus on rules and laws is just splitting hairs.

You can't just isolate one tiny individual transaction and declare it moral / immoral without considering the context and the big picture. For example, a bank finds a customer delinquent on his loan payment and thus chooses to repossess a house that customer put on as collateral. That in itself is fine. What's not fine is if this is just the end step of a predatory lending regime where the bank takes advantage of customers' financial illiteracy by setting up "independent" financial advisers which give customers bad financial advice, convincing them to take unwise loans they can't afford at disadvantageous rates and terms of sale, having them sign over their existing assets as collateral, and then allowing a portion of them to default so the bank can grab the collateralized assets for themselves.

The jet fighter dropping a bomb on a Hamas rocketeer and killing civilians in itself may be justifiable in some people's eyes, but it's the long sequence of events that led to this point that many others find make this morally indefensible.
posted by xdvesper at 7:38 PM on July 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


Empath, are you a pacifist? That's not a gotcha question or anything it's just the best way I know to reconcile your position.

I think the Geneva Conventions are a convenience used by the great powers to justify whatever they feel like getting away with while demonizing whoever their enemies are. I mean, look at the disproportionate outcry from the establishment over violations of the Geneva Convention like Abu Ghraib when the entire invasion and occupation of Iraq was a disaster from its inception to its conclusion.
posted by empath at 7:41 PM on July 8, 2014 [10 favorites]



The jet fighter dropping a bomb on a Hamas rocketeer and killing civilians in itself may be justifiable in some people's eyes, but it's the long sequence of events that led to this point that many others find make this morally indefensible.


Bullshit. Bombing a Hamas rocketeer is justifiable in and of itself. That long sequence of events may include things you find indefensible. That does not, however, oblige the IDF in any way to spare his life.
posted by ocschwar at 7:42 PM on July 8, 2014


What kind of bad faith argument is this? Are you equating dying in a car accident with being killed by a bomb as a civilian?


You're equating being murdered by someone who was looking to kill civilians with being killed by someone who was going after a legimate military aim (such as, for example, killing a Hamas rocket crew that's setting up shop) and then you accuse me of bad faith?

This after on the one hand expressing direct disagreement with the letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions and at the same time denying you were doing so?
posted by ocschwar at 8:03 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


being killed by a bomb=being killed by a bomb
being killed in a car accident does NOT equate to being killed by a bomb


Why not? You're just as dead. And that's all that matters, right?
No distinction between murder, manslaughter, negligence, or plain old tragedy, right?
No distinction between war and crimes thereof, right?

Dead is dead.
posted by ocschwar at 8:24 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Three mods, people. We have three mods.
posted by um at 8:32 PM on July 8, 2014 [9 favorites]


Mod note: guys, if your comment is just arguing with other users and calling them out by name, it's better to move on to other threads.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:35 PM on July 8, 2014


obligatory
posted by mrjohnmuller at 9:15 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


His most recent one is about the politically carved borders in the Middle East.

Every border on Earth is politically carved. Its a fantasy of 20th century political nationalist movements that there are "natural" borders for human states. Here's how the paradigm works--if your on the outs, then the borders aren't "natural" meaning your group doesn't have is share of the pie. And if you're satisfied with the borders then you rely on the legalism long after you can actually make good the complete claim for the land as a practical matter.

Americans here have a duty to let the people who represent them know how they feel about the middle east. That's because persons here have the ear of the deciding power in the region. People like me owe it to tell our political representatives about what we want. Sorry the rest of the world, we are working at fixing the problems.

frankly, Israel is the major impediment to peace now. telling our reps about it is a big deal. now the us is changing, moving away from israel. you can just see it with your own eyes. And the more we tell the politicians that, the gigantic ship that is the us will continue to turn away from its old course.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:28 PM on July 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


Every border on Earth is politically carved.

Ahem.

And that's not actually true even in countries that are not islands: the US and most American and European borders were established by conquest; most borders in the Middle East were established by colonial powers doing a deal. That's a huge difference: it means that they carry little historic or emotional weight and they are less likely to be appropriate to the terrain or its population.

frankly, Israel is the major impediment to peace now

Oh come on. Let's assume, hypothetically, that everybody in Israel converted to Islam and it became the western province of Greater Jordan. Which conflicts in the Middle East would disappear?
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:43 PM on July 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I thought this video was interesting.:
IDF attack house that was used as a lunching site in Gaza [sic]

I think the size of the explosion may be due to the secondary detonation of missiles there, but I don't know. It does show how very dangerous this war is to the civilians of Gaza, though: even the debris from an explosion in an isolated house looks capable of killing people.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:23 PM on July 8, 2014


frankly, Israel is the major impediment to peace now

Oh come on. Let's assume, hypothetically, that everybody in Israel converted to Islam and it became the western province of Greater Jordan. Which conflicts in the Middle East would disappear?


This is very, well, weird. We're talking about Israel and Palestine in this post. Not other conflicts.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:25 PM on July 8, 2014


Patriotism is the most evil force on the planet, a mindless hole of stinking pain and gibbering idiots.
posted by maxwelton at 11:11 PM on July 8, 2014


What was the quote? Nationalism is all about taking pride in things you haven't done and hating people you've never met?
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:36 PM on July 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


My apologies for misunderstanding you. But fair do's, it was such a ridiculous suggestion that I thought you must have meant something else. I mean, Hamas has never been willing to enter into negotiations with Israel; it is a body set up to make war both on Israel and on Israel's Jewish population. Hence its name: Islamic Resistance Movement.

Furthermore, while Hamas exists as an entity separate from the Palestinian Authority there is actually no body that can possibly speak for all Palestinians. This is a deliberate policy decision of Hamas, by the way, as reflected in their charter.1 Which means that all the time your Mr Kerry spent on shuttle diplomacy was wasted, because the Palestinian Authority is not even in a position to negotiate about Gaza.

1 One of many impossible-to-make-peace lines in the charter says that "so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement".
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:53 PM on July 8, 2014


if you do action X and result Y results on a consistent basis then by continuing action X, result Y is part of your intent

anyone who claims otherwise is lying
posted by pyramid termite at 12:58 AM on July 9, 2014


This is not to justify nor condemn any particular volley of rockets from either side, but the Israeli government could go a long way toward protecting its citizens by abandoning the aggressive campaign of invasion-by-illegal-settlement.

I do not understand why the Israeli government willfully and with full awareness of the nearly-inevitable consequences condemns Israeli civilians to death in this way.
posted by univac at 1:22 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


if you do action X and result Y results on a consistent basis then by continuing action X, result Y is part of your intent

That's over-simplifying. It depends on if there are other results along with Y and so on. If I have blood drawn to check for diabetes every so often and it causes pain every time it would not be fair to say that causing pain is part of my intent, only a consistent side-effect.
posted by Justinian at 1:34 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


I do not understand why the Israeli government willfully and with full awareness of the nearly-inevitable consequences condemns Israeli civilians to death in this way.

The only answer that makes sense is that they consider the alternatives worse. I don't understand how that can be but apparently they must. Either that or they're completely irrational. Which is not a cheery prospect.
posted by Justinian at 1:36 AM on July 9, 2014


the Israeli government could go a long way toward protecting its citizens by abandoning the aggressive campaign of invasion-by-illegal-settlement.

Israel doesn't have any settlements in Gaza, and it abandoned the ones it had there. None the less, the rockets come from Gaza and they are aimed at Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, not "settlements".

A relative of mine, who left Hungary just before the borders closed, had a theory about how Jews could have had better relations with their non-Jewish neighbours. It was something about Hungarian rabbis should have given classes on Christianity or something. But you know what? The Arrow Cross (Hungarian Nazis) didn't care about that stuff. He was just deluding himself by trying to explain their ideology as if it were some sort of reaction to Jewish behaviour, something that could have been averted if their victims had done the right thing. It's the same with people who try to explain Hamas' ideology as if they made some distinction between good Israel and good Jews, and bad Israel and bad Jews. They don't. They never have. It's all Israel and all Jews. I linked to their charter, above, but just take a look at their logo, here. Do you see the green map it incorporates? That's what they consider to be their territory. It's green, because they consider it to be "Islamic" territory. Do you see any room for Israel there? Do you see any room for Jews there?
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:43 AM on July 9, 2014 [4 favorites]


The IAF will continue striking the homes of key Hamas militants on Wednesday. According to the officer, residents of the buildings that were previously targeted have tried to avert the attacks by going up to the roofs en masse. Such ploys will not be effective, the officer says [7:00 am]

Chilling words.
posted by klue at 2:45 AM on July 9, 2014


>Do you see the green map it incorporates? That's what they consider to be their territory. It's green, because they consider it to be "Islamic" territory. Do you see any room for Israel there? Do you see any room for Jews there?

Extremists are always going to be extreme. Edge-cases make shitty policy. Everytime.

And I've had to listen to family members advocate using neutron bombs and comparing the "fastest growing population rates" to "just what happens when vermin aren't killed" so, you find nitwits on both sides.

The real problem here is while the extremist idiots on both sides are driving policy, their choices are killing children and destroying lives of people who just want to find the next dollar and take care of their kids.

How about we focus on the US Declaration of Independence's principles, "All Men are created equal, and endowed with inalienable rights -- life, liberty, purfuit of happineff", etc, and figure out how to get that to EVERYONE regardless of what side of the Green Line they're on?
posted by mikelieman at 3:23 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


This is not to justify nor condemn any particular volley of rockets from either side, but the Israeli government could go a long way toward protecting its citizens by abandoning the aggressive campaign of invasion-by-illegal-settlement.This is not to justify nor condemn any particular volley of rockets from either side, but the Israeli government could go a long way toward protecting its citizens by abandoning the aggressive campaign of invasion-by-illegal-settlement.

History says otherwise. Gaza settlements were abandoned & destroyed in 2005. Palestinias saw that as a sign of weakness. Launched 757 rockets at Israel to provoke a response. Got one.

The West Bank settlements are illegal and should be abandoned too. Probably will be one day. But that won't stop the rockets. Didn't last time.
posted by qi at 3:56 AM on July 9, 2014 [2 favorites]


Hamas does not make up the entirety of the people living in Gaza. If, perhaps there were some opportunity for a decent life for the people that live there, perhaps they wouldn't support the guys whose only agenda is to kill as many Israelis as possible.
posted by empath at 4:08 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


I trust that Israel will be consistent in their bulldozing of terrorists' family homes and take their Caterpillar D9's to the abodes of those who murdered teenager Mohammed Abu Khdeir the other day?
posted by gman at 4:24 AM on July 9, 2014 [5 favorites]


Empath, I wouldn't assume that Hamas has popular support. According to a recent-ish poll they would only get 33% if new elections were held. They haven't held an election in Gaza since 2006, and they even told their supporters not to vote in the 2012 municipal elections held in the West Bank.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:28 AM on July 9, 2014 [2 favorites]


For people who claim to be targeting militants only and that all dead children are mere "collateral damage" (always the phrase of choice used by the strong to excuse their terror attacks on the weak, see the heavy reliance of the US on that phrase with regards to its terror attacks on weddings, funerals, first responders, etc), Israel has managed to kill ten times as many Palestinian children as the brutal, animalistic, Palestinian fighters who "deliberately target children".

I would argue that the facts simply do not support the claim that Palestinian fighters are deliberately targeting children, or that the IDF is a noble force that only attacks military targets and would never think of targeting children.

But, again, we have to ask about intent and purpose. Why is the nation of Israel so intent on demolishing infrastructure in Palestine, in making life as miserable as possible for the Palestinian people as a whole, in breaking up Palestinian territory into ever smaller pieces and using illegal settlements to accomplish that goal?

Justinian wrote: "The only answer that makes sense is that they consider the alternatives worse. I don't understand how that can be but apparently they must. Either that or they're completely irrational. Which is not a cheery prospect."

There is, of course, another possibility, one which is central to the whole issue and without consideration makes any discussion run in pointless circles. But mentioning it is "derailing" and causes wild and bizarre accusations of anti-semitism and hate speech. And thus the conversation is channeled into territory where we are forced to the position that either a) the Israeli government has super secret information that makes the illegal settlements rational and good, or b) the Israeli government is insane. The explanation for the settlements that accounts for all known facts and does not require us to believe that the Israeli government is insane is forbidden from discussion.

What logical, rational, goal could account for the settlements? Hint: its the same goal that the US government had for virtually its entire history with regards to the native Americans. I can't say it clearly, because that would be anti-semitic hate speech and derailing.

Again, I strongly suspect that just as with South Africa and Apartheid, as long as the US supports Israel then Israel will continue its current policy towards the Palestinian people. And that if the US ever ends support of Israel then just as in South Africa than shortly afterwards the policy of that nation will change. Without US support I really don't think the majority in Israel would be content to allow the current coalition of right wingers and religious fanatics to keep their nation on this course.

Thanks to US support and the fact that the Palestinians have insufficient force to even be an annoyance to the average Israeli, its possible for the majority of voters to see the right wing and religious extremist policy towards Palestinians as unfortunate, but internal political disputes as more urgent and important. Absent US support the cost of allowing other political matters to take precedence over the Israel/Palestine war that the rightists and religious Israelis are so in love with will exceed the willingness of the non-right wing and religious fanatic Israeli to allow to continue.

Or at least I hope so.
posted by sotonohito at 4:39 AM on July 9, 2014 [15 favorites]


All the talk of settlements as the aggression is a red herring. Yes, new and expanding settlements are a provocation - and intended to be so. But Israel is unique as far as I can tell in that they have a proven and lasting history of trading land for peace. They removed their own settlements from the Sinai Peninsula and from Gaza - thousands of people, in meaningful cities, with many of the Israeli citizens who lived there armed and unwilling to go. Any land that is built on that becomes part of a future Palestinian state is going to be razed and handed over. There will likely be some existing West Bank settlements that will be swapped for currently Israeli land that is either heavily Arab in population or allows for them to have a meaningful, contiguous state.

Every time Israel takes military action against the terror group that is part of the elected Palestinian government, they have to justify their actions in the world court of public opinion. So Israel doesn't always take military action, even though Hamas and their supporters are literally attacking Israeli civilians every day. Sometimes they build. It's the only country I can think of that retaliates against violence by building homes for people - how horrifying. But the thing is, if the Palestinians would ever elect a government willing to have a two-state solution, settlements would be dismantled. That is a proven fact.

Saying that Israel is the problem here because they won't perpetually turn the other cheek and sometimes actually take military action against a group who makes no distinctions between military and civilian targets other than to prefer the latter, is remarkably short-sighted. Saying that they are the main obstacle to peace because they build houses shows more about your values for the abstract idea of peace than any desire for what makes peace - no more aggression. Hamas is the bad guy here. When civilians choose to crowd the rooftops on their buildings to form human shields for military targets, often with their children, what are you supposed to do? Sometimes the best response may be to build a house someplace else - especially if you know that the house is inevitably temporary.

This is not me saying everything Israel does is right, or apologizing for killing any civilians or destroying their property. But pretending that this is a one-sided conflict and ignoring the actions and statements of Hamas about their intentions is just as smart a move here as it is in the rest of the Middle East. Some Islamic resistance groups don't care about civilian casualties, including their own. No one has figured out how to fight them fairly. But they are the main obstacle to peace in the entire region.
posted by Mchelly at 5:26 AM on July 9, 2014 [5 favorites]


@Mchelly: Israel could end the war tomorrow. It would be politically impossible given the current state of the Israeli government, it would be difficult in that either abandoning or evacuating all the Israeli settlers would be a massive undertaking, but Israel could end the war tomorrow.

The side that has the power to end a war has the moral imperative to do so, or to present a very compelling case for the continuation of that war. What is the moral case for Israel continuing the war against the Palestinian people rather than ending the war?

And yes, ending the war would require trading land for peace. Lots of land. Enough land that it would cause even a lot of Israeli citizens who aren't part of the right wing or the religious extremist groups to complain. Because unless Israel trades enough land to make a viable Palestinian state then that isn't ending the war. Stolen goods need to be returned. The US fought an internal war over the same principle, those American citizens who stole the freedom of their slaves were forced to give up, without compensation, what they stole. They hated it, and I'm sure the "settlers" from Israel will hate it too. My sympathy for such people is non-existent.

If Israel did that then, other than a small anti-semitic rump, world opinion would immediately shift against any Palestinian aggression.

Israel doesn't have to wait for the Palestinians to elect a government that the Israeli government likes or approves of. It can do the whole thing unilaterally.

But the Israeli government won't. Because either the Israeli government is insane, or it has super top secret information that makes withdrawal impossible, or because the goal of the current Israeli government is eventually to force out all Palestinians and establish a Greater Israel that encompasses all Palestinian reservations.

The historic parallels to the USA and the native Americans are inescapable. At any time the US government could have ended the war waged against native Americans, the USA had the military power, it was the aggressor in all cases, ending the war was entirely up to the USA. But the USA had the goal of genocide (the definition of which includes displacement) and eventual American possession of all valuable land owned by indigenous people.
posted by sotonohito at 5:42 AM on July 9, 2014 [18 favorites]


I disagree with pretty much everything you have said. I support the Road Map and a two state solution. And I believe that requires good faith and laying down of weapons on both sides.
posted by Mchelly at 5:50 AM on July 9, 2014 [2 favorites]


Can you please explain why in your view Israel couldn't unilaterally end the war then? What specific power does that nation lack?

EDITED to be less demanding.
posted by sotonohito at 5:56 AM on July 9, 2014


Israel is a colonial government that exercises strong hegemony over the Palestinian territories, one of which (Gaza) is akin to an open air prison, with a higher population density than Hong Kong.

The core problem has never been, and never will be, violent resistance to the Israeli state. One cannot find a solution to this problem by looking at the actions of the weaker party.

I cannot stress enough the disparity between the two central actors involved in this scenario.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:57 AM on July 9, 2014 [13 favorites]


Israel is not a colonial government. Zionism is not colonialism.

The "weaker party" has tried and nearly succeeded to destroy Israel in several occasions.

This is not as black and white as you're trying to make it.
posted by gertzedek at 6:01 AM on July 9, 2014 [3 favorites]


gertzedek, can you please explain what you think the difference is between Zionism (as it is practiced today) and colonialism? Also how Israel isn't a colonial government given its occupation and colonization of Palestinian territory?
posted by sotonohito at 6:09 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Mchelly: They removed their own settlements from the Sinai Peninsula and from Gaza - thousands of people, in meaningful cities, with many of the Israeli citizens who lived there armed and unwilling to go.

The unilateral Gaza withdrawal was a well thought out plan by Sharon to vacate a patch of sand in as quick a fashion as possible, while retaining control over most of the infrastructure, so as to leave the Palestinian Authority unready and with their pants down, and prove that Israel couldn't possibly trust the Palestinians to control the much more desirable and settlement-filled West Bank. It was pretty genius, actually. And I say this as a Jew who lived in Israel as a child, with many relatives including my father still there.
posted by gman at 6:18 AM on July 9, 2014 [11 favorites]


sotonohito,

Do not forget to mention the continual support of the siege of Gaza--while the settlements are no longer there, there are frequent incursions into Gaza by the IDF and Israel, along with Egypt, controls Gaza's borders.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:19 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't know what you mean by Zionism "as it is practiced today". Zionism is about the Jews' right to a Jewish state.

Israel does not have an imperial will to take land or resources from Arabs/Palestinians (forget about the lunatic fringe) - Israelis have had multiple chances to do so in history but have done the opposite - returning land, as in the Sinai (a land multiple times the size of Israel itself) and Gaza (which Israel returned to the Palestinians by having to evict Jews by force from it, only to have it become a nest of terrorist activity).
posted by gertzedek at 6:20 AM on July 9, 2014


Also if anyone wants to discuss Gaza and have more than newspaper level knowledge of what they are talking about you absolutely need to read Sara Roy who is like the world's foremost scholar of the political economy of Gaza.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:28 AM on July 9, 2014 [3 favorites]


Mod note: A couple comments deleted; this really, really needs to not become people attacking or insulting each other. Please focus on the issues and not other commenters.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:33 AM on July 9, 2014


Mchelly: I disagree with pretty much everything you have said. I support the Road Map and a two state solution. And I believe that requires good faith and laying down of weapons on both sides.

Israel has the power here and the more sophisticated government/ruling institutions. They can make peace, Palestine can't. This is quite apart from who is right, who is wrong, and who started it. Palestine simply cannot impose policies on its people the way Israel can on its own. That's not to say Israel doesn't have extremists, of course it does, but Israel has robust state institutions that it can use to deal with it. Israel also has a level of internal legitimacy that no single Palestinian party/ruling coalition enjoys. Palestine cannot squeeze it's militant wing the same way Israel can.

Again, this is quite different from who is right or wrong. The facts on the ground are that Israel can impose peace and practice restraint in a way that the P.A. cannot. The extremely sad truth is that it order to do this, Israel will have to react dramatically differently, and less violently, to inevitable civilian atttacks. There's going to be rockets for some time, even after a cease fire is declared, and Israel would have to tone down how it reacts to preserve the peace.

gertzedek: The "weaker party" has tried and nearly succeeded to destroy Israel in several occasions.

Completely ahistorical. Those "several occasions" were not Palestine, the PLO or Hamas, those were wars waged by multiple Arab states. Neither intifada threatened the existence of Israel.

What will threaten the existence of Israel is if they don't make peace on a two-state model soon. In a few decades Israel will find that demographics have imposed a one-state solution upon them.

Peace is far more in Israel's interest than Palestine's. So, even if you don't buy that they are the "strong party", they certainly should pursue peace out of rational self-interest.
posted by spaltavian at 6:35 AM on July 9, 2014 [4 favorites]


getzedek: Israel does not have an imperial will to take land or resources from Arabs/Palestinians

They already did. Let's not pretend the current borders of Israel reflect the facts on the ground before the mandates.

Perhaps it would be better to drop the question of whether "Zionism" is or has colonialist elements and ask whether the state of Israel is currently pursuing/allowing some colonialist policies.
posted by spaltavian at 6:38 AM on July 9, 2014 [2 favorites]


Israel does not have an imperial will to take land or resources from Arabs/Palestinians

Really? This seems to be the cause of the Palestinians' continually disappearing land (map). Where the Palestinians were in the past, either Israel proper or Israeli settlements are now. I don't see how that can be attributed to anything other than Israeli policy.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:38 AM on July 9, 2014 [10 favorites]


Israel could end the war tomorrow. It would be politically impossible given the current state of the Israeli government, it would be difficult in that either abandoning or evacuating all the Israeli settlers would be a massive undertaking, but Israel could end the war tomorrow.

I would not have phrased this this way but I think I agree. I cannot imagine a world without Israel. To me, that is almost on par with imagining a world without the U.S. People may say that they want to wipe it off the planet but they might as well be saying something else that's not going to happen. I hesitate to think of an example for fear of being proven wrong but it's comparable, in my mind, with seeing the inauguration in the U.S. of President Ron Paul.

Right now, while there is desire for one, there isn't a comparable Palestinian state. Nothing even close. When I met a Palestinian in Jordan, my first (incredibly ignorant) thought was that Palestine was politically on par with Narnia - it's just not a thing.

If everyone stopped bombing each other, it would absolutely be better for everyone. But Gaza would continue to be a hellhole and Palestine would continue to be basically a non-entity.

I realize that this is not a subject about which I have any expertise and I apologize if this is offensive. That is really not my goal. But if you're interested in an outsider's perspective, there it is.
posted by kat518 at 6:43 AM on July 9, 2014


kat518: Right now, there isn't a comparable Palestinian state.

That's the point, though. The Palestinian's want a state. There's no reason to think they're incapable of having one, I mean, as long as there is a North Korea, the bar is pretty low.
posted by spaltavian at 6:46 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


spaltavian, I edited my point to include that. I thought it went without saying and apologize if I wasn't clear.
posted by kat518 at 6:49 AM on July 9, 2014


Mod note: Folks, please do not edit your posts to change or delete content (this is actually spelled out on the edit window itself, and is also in the FAQ). Edit is for typos and minor errors only.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:54 AM on July 9, 2014


HAMAS and the Settler movement complete each other. They both want the same thing-- to dominate the area and kick the other one out by any means necessary.

This entire rocket attack and bombing response feels like political theater, and I don't say that lightly as I am writing this right now about 3km away from where a Hamas rocket landed last night (literally 5 seconds after Germany scored their first goal of the onslaught, for half a second I thought it was a celebration until I felt the full blast).

The settler movement, once a weapon created by Sharon's gang in order to seize as much land as possible before final status negotiations took place, has metastasized and is eating Israel from the inside. I never thought I'd see a day where Bibi's primary political challengers are on the right. Without Hamas rocket attacks from Gaza, the Israeli right wing loses its political control of the country.

By the same token, without continued Israeli aggressions (if you look back through every single bombing raid and rocket attack, you can find that both sides are guilty of violating periods of calm; the popular narrative is of Hamas launching attacks unbidden, which has happened, but not every time) HAMAS loses its power base. As I said, they complete each other. The average people will die so these maniacs can engage in a long, drawn-out, unrealistic battle.

The funny(?) thing about it all is that the longer this low-intensity (yes, it's low intensity, 3x more people have died in Kashmir since 1990 than in the entire 75 year history of I Vs. P) battle goes on, the more we get to what at one point was an extreme left-wing idea with zero traction-- the one state solution.

Personally, I back a 3 state solution: two open air prison camps for the crazies, one state for the rest of us.
posted by cell divide at 7:24 AM on July 9, 2014 [15 favorites]


Hamas poster calling on Gaza rezsidents to act as human shields for targetted buildings.

The hypocrisy is delicious.

Hamas knows full well that if Israel was anywhere near as brutal as they claim (or as flippant Mefites claim), this tactic would not work.
posted by ocschwar at 7:27 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Personally, I back a 3 state solution: two open air prison camps for the crazies, one state for the rest of us.
posted by cell divide at 10:24 AM on July 9 [+] [!]


eponysterical
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:38 AM on July 9, 2014


Hamas knows full well that if Israel was anywhere near as brutal as they claim (or as flippant Mefites claim), this tactic would not work.

I'm surprised at how much faith you have in Hamas. This tactic does work precisely because Hamas wants civilian casualties in order to garner support. You're making the mistake of assuming that Hamas wants to use human shields to protect buildings. They want to use human shields because that will create more martyrs or collateral damage, depending on where you sit.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:41 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israel is not a colonial government. Zionism is not colonialism.

Read The Iron Wall sometime. It will dissuade you of that notion quite thoroughly.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:10 AM on July 9, 2014


Colonialism is the setting up of a colony to advance the interests of a mother country. Israel is not doing that. Ergo, Israel is not colonialism. Israel is a minority enclave, with a lot in common with the enclave now forming in Kurdistan.
posted by ocschwar at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Except that the state of Israel was set up to further Western interests - more specifically, to assuage Western guilt. There's also the fact that there's a lot of colonial thought in the later constructions of Zionism that superceded the original Hertzelian version (again, The Iron Wall, which views the Western expansion of the US and the treatment of the Native nations as a model, is rather illuminating in this regard.)

Perhaps it's not a textbook reading of colonialism, but it's rather close.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:30 AM on July 9, 2014 [2 favorites]


Except that the state of Israel was set up to further Western interests - more specifically, to assuage Western guilt.

This is emphatically not true, btw. Guilt had nothing to do with the establishment of Israel. I'd tell you where I read this but I forget.

Colonialism is the setting up of a colony to advance the interests of a mother country.

What we think of as colonialism was actually a very diverse practice with a lot of heterogenous elements. Israel's relationship to Palestine is obviously not an ideal type of colonoialism but there are more than enough isomorphisms to make the characterization meaningful, useful and accurate.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]



I never thought I'd see a day where Bibi's primary political challengers are on the right.Without Hamas rocket attacks from Gaza, the Israeli right wing loses its political control of the country.


as much as the ascendance of the extreme right in Israel is tied to the I/P conflict, you can put it in context with the resurgence of the extreme right in Central/Eastern Europe i.e Hungary, Ukraine, and in Greece.

The funny(?) thing about it all is that the longer this low-intensity (yes, it's low intensity, 3x more people have died in Kashmir since 1990 than in the entire 75 year history of I Vs. P) battle goes on, the more we get to what at one point was an extreme left-wing idea with zero traction-- the one state solution.

The one-state solution is the only solution, unless the West Bank has magic petroleum which will only flow for the Palestinians. The Oslo two-state deal was premised on the idea of a landlocked West Bank, completely dependent on it's neighbors for water with no economy outside of Israeli sweatshops and NGOs was somehow going to work. But the settler idea of carving the Palestinian population into a archipelago of Gazas which slowly evaporate is completely delusional.

Israel only has to lose once. Once the honeymoon/shock and awe wears off for Sisi in Egypt, there is only one way to distract attention from the cratering of the Egyptian economy.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:47 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


What, then, keeps them at this seemingly insane course of action?

Every retaliatory action they can provoke from Israel increases sympathetic international press for them.
posted by corb at 8:48 AM on July 9, 2014


Except that the state of Israel was set up to further Western interests - more specifically, to assuage Western guilt.

Poppycock. The people who set up Israel were doing so to advance Jewish national self determination.
posted by ocschwar at 8:49 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Once the honeymoon/shock and awe wears off for Sisi in Egypt, there is only one way to distract attention from the cratering of the Egyptian economy.

He'll let guns and fighters through to Gaza, but Egypt isn't going to directly touch Israel as long as their government is a subsidiary of American defense interests.
posted by spaltavian at 9:00 AM on July 9, 2014


Colonialism is the setting up of a colony to advance the interests of a mother country.

It's also colonization, as in settling areas inhabited by other people. It's doesn't fit the Jamestown/Plymouth Rock model, but this is just splitting hairs.
posted by spaltavian at 9:04 AM on July 9, 2014 [2 favorites]


To add: I'm not sure the "colonialist" disucssion would futher anything, but a better analogy would be the American experience of Manifest Destiny in the West. It's wasn't the mercantilist model some people seem to take that word to mean, but it's still apt.
posted by spaltavian at 9:06 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


with a lot in common with the enclave now forming in Kurdistan

On the one hand that might be true, given that Jews are a unique and distinct minority in the middle east. On the other hand the Kurds struggle in some ways seems to be more similar to the Palestinians-- national ambitions repeatedly frustrated by both stronger regional powers and world superpowers, reputation for terrorism, watching others gain statehood or freedom while yours is denied. It's harder to compare Israel with Kurdistan since the Kurds didn't arrive en masse from Europe starting 100 years ago.

It's actually really difficult to find an analog for 20th Century Israel, perhaps in all of world history. The former South Africa is probably the closest recent parallel that makes sense, but that doesn't quite fit either. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of history could find a good example that really works.
posted by cell divide at 9:24 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Except that the state of Israel was set up to further Western interests - more specifically, to assuage Western guilt.

People always wonder what's the point where criticism of the state of Israel becomes antisemitism. This is it.
posted by gertzedek at 9:26 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Updated 5:52 pm: The Gaza health ministry has released the names and ages of 41 Palestinians killed so far in the besieged strip since Israel began its relentless assault early Tuesday. Among those killed, 13 were aged 16 or younger. The youngest victim, 18-month-old Mohammed Malakiyeh, was killed along with his 27-year-old mother. The oldest victim, 80-year-old Naifeh Farjallah, was killed in an air strike on the town of Moghraqa, southwest of Gaza City.

The single deadliest strike killed eight people Tuesday in southern Gaza when Israel bombed the Hamad family home.

Al-Akhbar will update the list as new information is released.

Tuesday, July 8:
1. Mohammed Sha’aban, 24, was killed in a bombing of his car in Gaza City.
2. Ahmad Sha’aban, 30, died in the same bombing.
3. Khadir al-Bashiliki, 45, died in the same bombing.
4. Rashad Yaseen, 27, was killed in a bombing of the Nusseirat refugee camp in central Gaza.
5. Riad Mohammed Kawareh, 50, was killed in a bombing of his family’s home in Khan Younis.
6. Seraj Ayad Abed al-A’al, 8, was wounded in the same bombing and succumbed to his injuries on Tuesday evening.
7. Mohammed Ayman Ashour, 15, died in the same bombing.
8. Bakr Mohammed Joudah, 22, died in the same bombing.
9. Ammar Mohammed Joudah, 26, died in the same bombing.
10. Hussein Yousef Kawareh, 13, died in the same bombing.
11. Mohammed Ibrahim Kawareh, 50, died in the same bombing.
12. Bassim Salim Kawareh, 10, died in the same bombing.
13. Mousa Habib, 16, from Gaza City’s al-Shujaiyah neighborhood, was killed along with his 22-year old cousin while the pair were riding a motorcycle.
14. Mohammed Habib, 22, was killed with Mousa Habib.
15. Sakr Aysh al-Ajouri, 22, was killed in an attack on Jabaliyah, in northern Gaza.
16. Ahmad Na’el Mehdi, 16, from Gaza City’s Sheikh Radwan neighborhood, was killed in a bombing that wounded two of his friends.
17. Hafiz Mohammed Hamad, 30, an Islamic Jihad commander, was killed in the bombing of his home in Beit Hanoun, along with five of his family members.
18. Ibrahim Mohammed Hamad, 26, died in the same bombing.
19. Mehdi Mohammed Hamad, 46, died in the same bombing.
20. Fawzia Khalil Hamad, 62, died in the same bombing.
21. Dunia Mehdi Hamad, 16, died in the same bombing.
22. Suha Hamad, 25, died in the same bombing.
23. Suleiman Salman Abu Soaween, 22

Wednesday, July 9:
24. Abdelhadi Jamaat al-Sufi, 24, was killed in a bombing near the Rafah crossing.
25. Naifeh Farjallah, 80, was killed in an airstrike on the town of Moghraqa, southwest of Gaza City.
26. Abdelnasser Abu Kweek, 60, was killed in the bombing of Gaza’s central governorate along with his son.
27. Khaled Abu Kweek, 31, Abdelnasser Abu Kweek’s son, was killed in the same bombing.
28. Amir Areef, 13, died in a bombing in Sha’af.
29. Mohammed Malkiyeh, one and a half years old, died in a bombing along with his mother and a young man.
30. Amniyeh Malkiyeh, 27, Mohammed Malkiyeh’s mother, died in the same bombing.
31. Hatem Abu Salem, 28, died in the same bombing.
32. Mohammed Khaled al-Nimri, 22
33. Sahar Hamdan, 40, died in the bombing of her home in Beit Hanoun.
34. Ibrahim Masri, 14, Sahar Hamdan’s son, was killed in the same bombing.
35. Unknown
36. Sumoud al-Nawasra, a mother, was killed in a bombing along with her two children.
37. Mohammed Khalaf al-Nawasra, 4, arrived at the hospital “in shreds.”
38. Nidal Khalaf al-Nawasra, a child of unreported age, died along with Mohammed and Sumoud.
39. Salah Awwad al-Nawasra, was killed in the same bombing. His body was found under the rubble of the house.
40. Amal Youssef Abdel Ghafour
41. Ranim Jawde Abdel Ghafour, a young girl

Putting names to numbers: The victims of Gaza: A list of Palestinians killed in Israel's ongoing assault
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 9:29 AM on July 9, 2014 [3 favorites]


Except that the state of Israel was set up to further Western interests - more specifically, to assuage Western guilt.

People always wonder what's the point where criticism of the state of Israel becomes antisemitism. This is it.
posted by gertzedek at 12:26 PM on July 9 [+] [!]


Stop it please. As I said upthread, the idea that Israel was established to assuage western guilt is wrong. However, I only know its wrong because I'm a scholar who (used to, long story) study this conflict and remember reading a fairly convincing argument that guilt played no role in support for Israel--however, sympathy did.

My point in this is that the claim that guilt played a role in establishing Israel is a fairly common misconception believed by some very respectable people (some of them Jewish/pro Israel!). To immediately empty your quiver isn't helping this conversation.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:39 AM on July 9, 2014 [9 favorites]


The single deadliest strike killed eight people Tuesday in southern Gaza when Israel bombed the Hamad family home.

Dear God.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:51 AM on July 9, 2014


Furthermore, while Hamas exists as an entity separate from the Palestinian Authority there is actually no body that can possibly speak for all Palestinians. This is a deliberate policy decision of Hamas, by the way, as reflected in their charter.1

This is a deliberate policy decision of Israel, actually. It funded and allowed Hamas to grow to undercut the PLO. This is a well documented fact that not even Israel denies.

its called divide and conquer. The oldest move in the book.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:59 AM on July 9, 2014 [16 favorites]


"17:54 Gazan journalists describes fresh air and sea attacks

Mohammed Omer, an independent journalist based in Gaza City, spoke to MEE as bombing increases in the strip:

“Right now there are F-16 warplanes bombing next door to us in Gaza City. I don’t know what the target is but all I can see is people running away from smoke that is coming out of the blast zone. It could either be a house or agricultural land, since it happened less than a minute ago it isn’t clear yet."

Omer said the strikes had reduced earlier in the day but that Gazans were now preparing for a night of intense attacks.

“The bombing calmed down for about an hour, not stopped entirely however, but they are now increasing again. They always increase at this time, overnight until seven or eight in the morning."

The bombs aren't just being dropped from the air, as the Israeli warships are now bombing from off Gaza's coast.

“The Israeli warships are also bombing from the sea at the moment and they are quite close to the beach. They can’t fire too far in from the beach and are only able to attack the houses along the coastal line."

“They have hit the fire department, the fishing habour and the container for the Palestinian navy from the sea. The bombing started from the sea last night and has intensified since."

Omer said mosques have been hit, as well as an United Nations school, while bemoaning the fact increased bombing takes place just prior to the time for Muslims to break their daily fast.

“Three mosques have been targeted in the last 24 hours, with the worse hit in the east of Khan Younis. An UNRWA school was hit too, earlier today, but it did not get any attention from the media. The school was damaged but nobody was hurt at no one is at school at the moment.”

“All of this is happening just half an hour before Iftar [breaking of the fast], which is supposed to be a time where people have inner peace and sit quietly reciting the Qur’an. It is very risky to go to the mosque or shops.""

Live blog From Middle East Eye
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:16 AM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


"One either rejects the killing of non-combatants on principle or takes a more tribal approach to such matters. In the case of Israel and the Palestinians, the global outpouring of grief and condemnation over the killing of three Israeli youths in the occupied West Bank is the moral equivalent of Rolf Harris denouncing Jimmy Savile.

Over the past 14 years, Israel has killed Palestinian children at a rate of more than two a week. There seems to be no Israeli child in harm’s way that Barack Obama will not compare to his own daughters, but their Palestinian counterparts are brushed aside with mantras about Israel’s right to self-defence. The institutionalised disregard for Palestinian life in the West helps explain not only why Palestinians resort to violence, but also Israel’s latest assault on the Gaza Strip.

The current round of escalation is generally dated from the moment three Israeli youths went missing on 12 June. Two Palestinian boys were shot dead in Ramallah on 15 May, but that – like any number of incidents in the intervening month when Israel exercised its right to colonise and dispossess – is considered insignificant.

Binyamin Netanyahu immediately blamed Hamas for the three Israeli teenagers’ disappearance. The White House almost as quickly confirmed Hamas’s guilt, which has since been treated as established fact by the media. Yet the culprits remain at large and their institutional affiliation unclear. For its part Hamas, which like other Palestinian organisations never hesitates to claim responsibility for its actions and is prone to exaggerate its activities, has this time denied involvment.

What we do know is that a distress call made by one of the Israeli youths on 12 June included the sound of gunfire, which led the Israeli security establishment to conclude they had been killed. Netanyahu suppressed the information, and used the pretext of a hostage rescue operation to launch an organised military rampage throughout the West Bank. His demagoguery, even by his standards, plumbed new depths of vulgarity. To blame the subsequent burning alive of a 16-year-old Palestinian on a few errant Israeli fanatics (after attempts to portray it as the murder of a gay boy by his own family had failed) is to pretend such barbarism exists independently of the colonial and political contexts that produce it."
From the London Review of Books: Institutionalised Disregard for Palestinian Life by Mouin Rabbani
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:39 AM on July 9, 2014 [13 favorites]


It's actually really difficult to find an analog for 20th Century Israel, perhaps in all of world history.

oh, i think the crusader states might be pretty close

that didn't turn out real well for the crusaders, did it?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:55 PM on July 9, 2014


I don't think that's the best analogy because the Crusaders were almost universally outsiders while many Israelis are from the region. Lots of others have moved there since the founding, of course, but Israels roots are local in a way that the Crusader States were not. I don't know what a good analogy would be.
posted by Justinian at 1:52 PM on July 9, 2014 [2 favorites]




Justinian, while the "Crusaders" were alien Europeans, there were native Christians, and an ancient native Christian culture, in Palestine at the time. That's not super different from the 20th century, were you had Jews in the region, but the state was largely created by Ashkenazim immigration/principles.
posted by spaltavian at 6:21 PM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't think that's the best analogy because the Crusaders were almost universally outsiders while many Israelis are from the region.

Were they? Some of the Crusader States were around for centuries.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:33 PM on July 9, 2014


spaltavian: I believe there's a lot of recent scholarship which argues that the invading Crusaders held themselves as Catholic ruling elite which kept almost completely apart and segregated from the subject population of Muslims and some Eastern Christian sects. There really wasn't so far as I am aware any intersection between people who lived in the area and the Crusader elite. At least in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, I'm much less familiar with Antioch or the others.

The Crusader States seem a much more direct analogue to South African apartheid than Israel does.
posted by Justinian at 7:31 PM on July 9, 2014




its called divide and conquer. The oldest move in the book

Second oldest.
posted by spitbull at 11:59 PM on July 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's harder to compare Israel with Kurdistan since the Kurds didn't arrive en masse from Europe starting 100 years ago.

Neither did the Israelis.

I don't like engaging with this sort of argument. Telling people to "go back where you came from" is crudely racist, particularly when it's done on a collective rather than an individual basis. The irony is particularly acute in this case, since a common European jibe was to tell Jews to "go back to Palestine". Furthermore, the idea that Jews have no "home" was and remains a staple of both European and Arab anti-Semitism: it's not like European countries thought of their Jewish minorities as being indigenous, no matter how many centuries their ancestors had lived there. The suggestion that Jews are alien to Israel is part-and-parcel with the suggestion that Jews are alien to Europe: it's a blood-and-soil narrative that should have no place in contemporary political discourse.

On a purely factual level, though, I should point out that Israeli Jews are not primarily European - still less so today, but not even at the time of Israel's establishment. Israel is practically the home of all the residual Jewish communities in the Middle East. All the great Jewish communities have been destroyed, ending continuous social and cultural traditions that dated back thousands of years. Hundreds of thousands of Jews from these communities fled to Israel, and the number of Middle-Eastern and European refugees was roughly equal. This is quite beside the pre-existing Jewish community in (what is now) Israel itself, of course.

While I'm at this, I should point out that many or most Palestinians also originate from people who moved to (what is now) Israel over the past hundred years or so. This was a time of huge migrations and diasporas, a period which probably came to an end several years after the establishment of Israel. This is why, for instance, UNRWA's definition of a "Palestine Refugee" simply requires that their "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948". Even the PLO defines Palestinians as "Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine". There is no suggestion that you go looking further back, and no desire to do so. I believe that it is reprehensible in any case to stigmatise Jews today because of Jewish migrations a century ago, but the failure to be even-handed shows that this argument is merely prejudicial.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:13 AM on July 10, 2014 [9 favorites]


The narrative that Jews are alien to the middle east is one of the last socially accepted forms of antisemitism.
posted by gertzedek at 2:48 AM on July 10, 2014 [1 favorite]


Furthermore, the idea that Jews have no "home" was and remains a staple of both European and Arab anti-Semitism

I've always thought that we were supposed to keep wandering around until the Messiah comes. Personally, I find the 'distributive' nature of this to be robust and fault-tolerant, but it does tend to cause some distress to Nationalists.

I observe that no-one is firing rockets at Jews in New York. I credit it to the principles expressed in the US Declaration of Independence, which while not-perfect in their implementation, is a good spec to work from.
posted by mikelieman at 2:50 AM on July 10, 2014 [1 favorite]


Mod note: A few comments removed: please don't make it personal. Thank you.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 3:23 AM on July 10, 2014




"I observe that no-one is firing rockets at Jews in New York."

Jews were doing pretty well in the major cities of Prussia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire too.
posted by gertzedek at 5:34 AM on July 10, 2014 [2 favorites]


the logical conclusion of the very true premise that Israeli Jews have been in Israel for a very long time is that the Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are so culturally similar and intertwined that the only reasonable option is not separation but rather a one state solution.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on July 10, 2014 [2 favorites]


the logical conclusion of the very true premise that Israeli Jews have been in Israel for a very long time is that the Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are so culturally similar and intertwined that the only reasonable option is not separation but rather a one state solution.

Many of the Palestinians are descended from Jews living in Palestine who converted to other religions since 70 AD.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:46 AM on July 10, 2014


the logical conclusion of the very true premise

The whole Middle East is filled with genetically related groups who hate each other due to geography, politics, or religion.

Also, Jewish Refugees of the Arab World (from CAMERA) - it wasn't just Europe or indigenous Jewish populations.
posted by rosswald at 6:56 AM on July 10, 2014 [3 favorites]


Jews were doing pretty well in the major cities of Prussia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire too.

They're both gone, and of historical interest I suppose.

WE ARE STILL HERE.

So, I'm not sure if that's really an effective refutation of my suggestion of the distributive nature, or fault tolerance or that the essential principles of the United States work pretty well in this context.
posted by mikelieman at 7:04 AM on July 10, 2014


We're not talking about all Jews, but rather recent (within the past 20 years) immigrants to illegal settlements

No, we're not. The conflict goes back a lot longer than 20 years, and has been noted, there are no settlements in Gaza, where the rockets are coming from.

The argument has always been that settlement in the West Bank was essential for Israel's security. Recent events are making the case for that perspective.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:15 AM on July 10, 2014 [4 favorites]


mikelieman: It's more of a defense of one of the core tenets of Zionism - that without a homeland, Jewish people will not be safe from religious persecution. That tenet tends to falter when you look at the US model of separation of church and state, so they point to other states where there was religious "freedom" preceeding sectarian persecution, in a sort of implicit "it can happen here, too!"

The problem is that there's too much difference between the European and American models to make the argument - the European model is more grounded in cultural assimilation of national identity (so you see perennial arguments in France of new immigrants refusing to "become French"), whereas the US model is more of cultural fusion (which is why the Hyphen-American appellation is so prevalent.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:25 AM on July 10, 2014


talking about the origins of the conflict is kinda irrelevant, no? the current disparity between the two groups is the issue. the disparity of wealth, power, and casualties all leave the Palestinians much poorer than the Israelis.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:37 AM on July 10, 2014


The argument has always been that settlement in the West Bank was essential for Israel's security. Recent events are making the case for that perspective.

Uprooting the settlements will be difficult. A lot more than Gaza. An estimated 500,000 - 650,000 settlers live in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. In 2005 at the time of the pullout there were 8,500 settlers in Gaza.
posted by qi at 10:42 AM on July 10, 2014


I have to say - I would like to see some cites about 'settlers == well-heeled families from the USA' because it comes across, to me at least, as...
posted by rosswald at 10:42 AM on July 10, 2014 [1 favorite]


Mod note: if you think a comment or line of discussion is inappropriate, please flag it and/or contact us rather than making accusations in-thread. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:43 AM on July 10, 2014


I would like to see some cites about 'settlers == well-heeled families from the USA'

equating the two is inaccurate, but its not a rare occurrence:

Hirschhorn's dissertation, which she is doing at the University of Chicago, presents the first known attempt to draw up a comprehensive demographic profile of Americans within the Israeli settlement movement. Her findings seem to imply they are somewhat overrepresented: According to Hirschhorn, who had access to confidential records from the American consulate in Jerusalem, 45,000 settlers have American citizenship, or about 15 percent of the Israeli West Bank population. In comparison, Americans make up less than 8.5 percent of all Israeli Jews, based on estimates of 500,000 Americans among Israel's 5.8 million Jews.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:47 AM on July 10, 2014 [3 favorites]


talking about the origins of the conflict is kinda irrelevant, no? the current disparity between the two groups is the issue

That is pretty silly - how could ignoring the history of a conflict help in understanding and discussing it?

And of course you seem to want the issue to center around the disparity of the two groups, because using that as a metric faults one side and not the other. Personally I have a hard time believing that the morality of a side in a conflict is a direct inverse relationship to the size and capabilities of its armed forces.
posted by rosswald at 10:49 AM on July 10, 2014


So much nonsense in the dying embers of this thread. Yes, Israel is the home for all Jews and now lots of Eastern and southern and even African Jews live there. But Zionism was a European project and before 1900 there were very few Jews living in Israel. I am personally descended from Weizmann who became a very famous family in Israel and part of the ruling elite. I assure you we are very European even to this day in Israel! It is not antisemetic in the slightest to say the roots of Zionism are European! The success of the nationalist movement, call it colonialist of you want, mean that every Jew from any part of the world (even a tribe on South America) are welcome but don't erase our history and how the country was created.
posted by chaz at 10:51 AM on July 10, 2014 [10 favorites]


certainly the power disparity determines who has the power to effect change and thus who bears responsibility.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:01 AM on July 10, 2014


qi: So what? Doing the right thing is, more often than not, difficult.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:05 AM on July 10, 2014


Israeli public sentiment in 2005 was strongly in favor of uprooting the 21 Gaza settlements. It was widely believed in and outside Israel that the settlements were stopping a successful peace agreement. This is what Palestinian negotiators and pollsters told Israel. This is what Israeli leaders told their people.

That year 8500 Israeli settlers in Gaza were removed. Some went voluntarily but many were forced at gunpoint. Homes were destroyed by the IDF so they would not be capable of returning. It was the right thing to do: the settlements were illegal and blocking the peace process. Yet removing the settlements in 2005 did not bring peace. The attacks escalated and hundreds of rockets & mortar shells rained down on Israel from Gaza in the months that followed. In June 2006 Israel responded. From this many Israelis drew the conclusion that the West Bank settlements were a red herring and not an impediment to peace. The Israeli right felt vindicated: they said 'you can't negotiate with or give concessions to Palestinians. They only want to kill Israelis.' It's taken almost a decade since for a majority of Israelis to conclude that the Settlements are a drain on Israeli society and harmful to US Israel relations. They still don't necessarily believe the remaining settlements are an impediment to peace. Look at what happened in Gaza in 2005.

The Israeli government incentivized people to settle in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Four years ago resolution would have been easier. Now in the West Bank alone there are 350,000 Settlers. Small cities instead of small villages like last time. It will take more effort and possibly a civil war to uproot them. The Israeli public will have to believe the Settlements must be abandoned and fight to make that happen. Public opinions are closer then they were but aren't there yet,possibly since it's widely known Hamas has a pattern of escalating conflicts to distract from their economic problems. Possibly because many believe the Settlements are security against Palestinian attacks. The "right thing" to do is not considered a forgone conclusion.
posted by qi at 12:01 PM on July 10, 2014 [3 favorites]


The fact that there are so many settlers does not magically make those settlements any less illegal by international law. In fact, the whole point of having so many settlers was an extremely cynical strategy of creating "facts on the ground" - establishing population bases to force ceding the land (which, it should be pointed out, often coincided with water and arable land) to them.

So, I consider the numbers to be meaningless. If Israel has to remove half a million people that were placed on land illegally by its self serving policy, then so be it. It's the price to pay for illegal conduct.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:20 PM on July 10, 2014 [10 favorites]


So, I consider the numbers to be meaningless.

So, you're in favor of a civil war and forced re-settlement at gunpoint of a half-million people on top of everything else? Spiffy!
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:52 PM on July 10, 2014


The fact that there are so many settlers does not magically make those settlements any less illegal by international law.

Obviously.

So, I consider the numbers to be meaningless.

It's convenient to think in black & white terms and ignore the details. But not very practical. Figuring out how the settlements can be torn down without causing an Israeli civil war that could spread throughout occupied Palestinian areas and engulf the rest of the region is not a trivial goal. Israeli public opinion about the settlements and whether they are an impediment to peace isn't a triviality either. Not if you want to convince them to dismantle their own settlements.

If Israel has to remove half a million people that were placed on land illegally by its self serving policy, then so be it. It's the price to pay for illegal conduct.

No one in this conversation has said Israel shouldn't dismantle the settlements. Nobody has said they're not illegal.
posted by qi at 1:55 PM on July 10, 2014


Rather telling and thankfully, lists the source of the information below each image.

9 Graphics to Help You Understand What Life Is Really Like in Gaza
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:11 PM on July 10, 2014


You're right, nobody has been outright stating "we should not dismantle the settlements". Instead, we're being told that there are so many people in the settlements, that forcing these people to leave will cause a civil war, that public sentiment needs to be shifted. Oh, and that the fact that not only has the Israeli government refused to freeze settlement development, but has in fact ramped up the process should be quietly ignored.

In light of all that, I have to ask - do you really take me for a fool? Because while you might not be saying "don't dismantle the settlements" outright, the hints are there. That is the whole purpose of the "facts on the ground" strategy - to make it so that removal of the settlements becomes untenable. Which is why the answer has to be to say to those arguments "that's a problem for the people who decided on implementing an illegal and cynical policy."
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:14 PM on July 10, 2014 [10 favorites]


Yes, Israel is the home for all Jews and now lots of Eastern and southern and even African Jews live there. But Zionism was a European project and before 1900 there were very few Jews living in Israel.

That depends on what you mean by "very few". Jews have been a majority in Jerusalem, for example, for something like 150 years. But it's true that in absolute numbers there weren't all that many... but it's also true that the total population of the region we now call Israel was quite low. There were fewer than 300,000 people there until the 20th century!
posted by Justinian at 2:37 PM on July 10, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's also true that a lot of the Jews that used to live in the area pre 20th century were driven out by pogroms. One couldn't claim that, say, the Cherokee aren't historically from Georgia (and other southeastern states) because they migrated out of the area. They didn't have a lot of choice in the matter.
posted by Justinian at 2:40 PM on July 10, 2014 [3 favorites]


con't

42. Rashid al-Kafarneh, 30, was killed when the motorcycle he was riding was bombed.
43. Ibrahim Daoud al-Balawi, 24
44. Abdelrahman Jamal al-Zamli, 22
45. Ibrahim Ahmad Abideen, 42
46. Mustafa Abu Mar, 20
47. Khalid Abu Mar, 23
48. Mazen Farj al-Jarbah, 30
49. Marwan Slim, 27
50. Hani Saleh Hamad, 57, was killed in a bombing in Beit Hanoun along with his son Ibrahim.
51. Ibrahim Hamad, 20, was killed in the same bombing.
52. Salima Hassan Musallim al-Arja, 60, was killed in a bombing in Rafah that wounded five others.
53. Maryam Atieh Muhammad al-Arja, 11, was killed in the same bombing.
54. Hamad Shahab, 27
55. Ibrahim Khalil Qanun, 24, was killed in a bombing of Khan Younis.
56. Muhammad Khalil Qanun, 26, was killed in the same attack.
57. Hamdi Badieh Sawali, 33, was killed in the same attack.
58. Ahmad Sawali, 28, was killed in the same attack.
59. Suleiman al-Astal, 55
60. Muhammad al-Aqqad, 24
61. Ra’ed Shalat, 37, was killed in a bombing that wounded 6 others.

Thursday, July 10:
62. Asma Mahmoud al-Hajj was killed in a bombing in Khan Younis that killed eight members of the same family and wounded 16 other people.
63. Basmah Abdelfattah al-Hajj, 57, was wounded in the bombing and succumbed to her injuries shortly afterwards.
64. Mahmoud Lutfi al-Hajj, 58, died in the same bombing.
65. Tarek Sa’ad al-Hajj died in the same bombing.
66. Sa’ad Mahmoud al-Hajj died in the same bombing.
67. Najla Mahmoud al-Hajj died in the same bombing.
68. Fatima al-Hajj died in the same bombing.
69. Omar al-Hajj died in the same bombing.
70. Ahmad Salim al-Astal was killed in the bombing of a beach house in Khan Younis that critically wounded more than 15 people.
71. Mousa Mohammed was killed in the same bombing. The two bodies were recovered four hours after the bombing.
72. Ra’ed al-Zawareh, 33, succumbed to his wounds and died. The location of his death was unreported.
73. Baha’ Abu al-Leel, 35
74. Salim Qandil, 27, was killed in a bombing.
75. Omar al-Fyumi, 30, was killed in the same bombing.
76. Abdullah Ramadan Abu Ghazzal, 5, was killed in a bombing in Beit Lahiya.
77. Ismail Hassan Abu Jamah, 19, was killed in a bombing of Khan Younis that injured two children, one critically.
78. Unknown
79. Mahmoud Wulud was killed in a bombing of a civilian vehicle in northern Gaza. His remains were taken to Kamal Adwan Hospital in Jabaliya.
80. Hazem Balousha was killed in the same bombing. His remains are at Kamal Adwan Hospital.
81. Alaa Abdelnabi was killed in the same bombing. His remains are at Kamal Adwan Hospital.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:54 PM on July 10, 2014 [2 favorites]


Instead, we're being told that there are so many people in the settlements, that forcing these people to leave will cause a civil war, that public sentiment needs to be shifted.

Two options: Either an outside force steps in and forces Israel to dismantle the settlements or the Israelis do it themselves. The first option would lead to war. The second option could lead to war. But Israel voluntarily evacuating Gaza did not lead to war so we can assume it is avoidable. Why not be honest about the differences between 2005 and 2014 if we are going to discuss the problem and solutions?

Oh, and that the fact that not only has the Israeli government refused to freeze settlement development, but has in fact ramped up the process should be quietly ignored.

Quietly ignored? I mentioned it explicitly and Isaid they incentivize the settlers. I linked to a report that mentions the ramping up and also says settlers are not all religious extremists and many might move back to Israel if given the right counterincentives.

Because while you might not be saying "don't dismantle the settlements" outright, the hints are there.

This is what I said: "The West Bank settlements are illegal and Israel should dismantle them and remove the settlers by force." and "The West Bank settlements are illegal and should be abandoned too. Probably will be one day. But that won't stop the rockets. Didn't last time."

There are no "hints" and this is not making excuses or obfuscating. We can't analyse complex problems without acknowldging they are complex.
posted by qi at 2:56 PM on July 10, 2014 [1 favorite]


When you say "settlements", do you include (e.g.) the Old City of Jerusalem, including the Western Wall? How about suburbs of Jerusalem like Sheikh Jarrah / Shimon haTzadik, Ramat Eshkol, Pisgat Ze'ev and Neve Yaakov? Because all those locations have substantial populations; are built-up areas contiguous with areas behind the "Green Line"; were not historically contemplated as part of an Arab state; and were built on land privately owned by Jews before 1948. The only reason they are described as "settlements" is that the inhabitants were massacred or expelled by the Jordanians in 1948, after which the areas were occupied by Jordan until 1967. I can't see any reason why this brief occupation, which was recognised by precisely three other countries (Great Britain, Iraq, and Pakistan), should trump every other reason.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:34 PM on July 10, 2014 [2 favorites]


Oops.

From a CNN interview with Diana Buttu, described as a "former legal advisor to the [...] PLO and [...] a negotiator in Israeli/Palestinian talks".

Diana Buttu: The idea that Palestinians use children as human shields is racist and reprehensible, and the idea that Israelis are somehow skewing this and we're to believe it is also racist and reprehensible.

Jake Tapper: Diana, it's not racist - we have video of a Hamas spokesman on television telling people to stay in their homes and that it's an effective way to make sure ... to fight off the Israelis. That's not racist, that's just a fact.

Diana Buttu: Jake, I haven't seen the tape [...]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:47 PM on July 10, 2014


Would withholding US support for the Israeli Government until they in good faith adopt a policy of extending the core democratic principles of Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness for EVERYONE, regardless of ethnicity or whether they're inside or outside the Green Line change the 'facts on the ground' strategy?

No one is saying the Israeli Government HAS to change, but if they don't get in line with Freedom and Liberty, they go forward without my support.
posted by mikelieman at 5:33 AM on July 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


Would withholding US support for the Israeli Government until they in good faith adopt a policy of extending the core democratic principles of Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness for EVERYONE, regardless of ethnicity or whether they're inside or outside the Green Line change the 'facts on the ground' strategy?

In a motherfucking heartbeat. But group of powerful entities collectively known as the Israel Lobby will not allow the US to do that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:25 AM on July 11, 2014






Mod note: please post links to articles, don't copy/paste entire articles here, thanks
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:05 AM on July 11, 2014 [4 favorites]


Yet terrible as the deed itself is, to my mind the public reaction is even worse. Because there isn’t any.

“Today shame goes forth from Zion,” the president said, adding that the murder should shock the entire nation and that “the world cannot remain silent when a child is murdered and burned to death.”

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Peres-calls-murder-of-Abu-Khdeir-a-moral-crisis-that-must-be-handled-immediately-361879


Here's an editorial in Ha'aretz, "the New York Times of Israel"

"Many Israelis are deluding themselves by declaring Jewish values is a safeguard against murder and terrorism; this murder should come as no surprise."

If you really think normal Israelis, or their leaders, are shrugging off this sickening murder and its sickening perpetrators, I just don't even know what to say.
posted by escabeche at 11:15 AM on July 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


"The longer Operation Protective Edge continues, the clearer the nature of the IAF’s targets become. This time they include the homes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives. Israel’s B’Tselem human rights organization said yesterday that this violates the international humanitarian law, which permits attacks only against targets that effectively assist military efforts. The homes of people involved in the fighting against Israel do not meet this definition. Nor is killing their relatives a military necessity. "
Caution, another Cast Lead lies ahead: The first few days of Operation Protective Edge indicate that Israel hasn’t learned anything from previous instances of mass killing

International law requires Israel to take all measures to ensure that its attacks are proportional, distinguish between military and civilian objects, and avoid civilian casualties, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said.

"We have received deeply disturbing reports that many of the civilian casualties, including of children, occurred as a result of strikes on homes. Such reports raise serious doubt about whether the Israeli strikes have been in accordance with international humanitarian law and international human rights law," Pillay said in a statement.
U.N. rights boss doubts legality of Israel's Gaza offensive

Since the beginning of its occupation in 1967, Israel has rebuffed the applicability of international humanitarian law to the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). Despite imposing military rule over the West Bank and Gaza, Israel denied the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (the cornerstone of Occupation Law). Israel argued because the territories neither constituted a sovereign state nor were sovereign territories of the displaced states at the time of conquest, that it simply administered the territories and did not occupy them within the meaning of international law. The UN Security Council, the International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly, as well as the Israeli High Court of Justice have roundly rejected the Israeli government’s position. Significantly, the HCJ recognizes the entirety of the Hague Regulations and provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions that pertain to military occupation as customary international law.

Israel’s refusal to recognize the occupied status of the territory, bolstered by the US’ resilient and intransigent opposition to international accountability within the UN Security Council, has resulted in the condition that exists today: prolonged military occupation. Whereas the remedy to occupation is its cessation, such recourse will not suffice to remedy prolonged military occupation. By virtue of its decades of military rule, Israel has characterized all Palestinians as a security threat and Jewish nationals as their potential victims, thereby justifying the differential, and violent, treatment of Palestinians. In its 2012 session, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination described current conditions following decades of occupation and attendant repression as tantamount to Apartheid.
No, Israel Does Not Have the Right to Self-Defense In International Law Against Occupied Palestinian Territory

Is Gaza Still Occupied and Why Does It Matter?
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:12 PM on July 11, 2014


con't

82. Mahmoud Wulud, 26, was killed in a bombing of a civilian vehicle in northern Gaza. His remains were taken to Kamal Adwan Hospital in Jabaliya.
83. Hazem Balousha, 30, was killed in the same bombing. His remains are at Kamal Adwan Hospital.
84. Nour Rafik Adi al-Sultan, 27, was killed in the same bombing. His remains are at Kamal Adwan Hospital.
85. Ahmad Zaher Hamdan, 24, was killed in a bombing in Beit Hanoun.
86. Mohammed Kamal al-Kahlout, 25, was killed in a bombing in Jabaliyah.
87. Sami Adnan Shaldan, 25, was killed in a bombing in Gaza City.
88. Jamah Atieh Shalouf, 25, was killed in a bombing in Rafah.
89. Bassem Abdelrahman Khattab, 6, was killed in a bombing in Deir al-Balah.
90. Abdullah Mustafa Abu Mahrouk, 22, was killed in a bombing in Deir al-Balah.

Friday, July 11:
91. Anas Rizk Abu al-Kas, 33, was killed in a bombing in Gaza City.
92. Nour Marwan al-Najdi, 10, was killed in a bombing in Rafah.
93. Mohammed Mounir Ashour, 25, was killed in a bombing on the al-Ghanam family home in Rafah.
94. Ghalia Deeb Jabr al-Ghanam, 7, was killed in the same bombing.
95. Wasim Abd al-Rizk Hassan al-Ghanam, 23, was killed in the same bombing.
96. Mahmoud Abd al-Rizk Hassan al-Ghanam, 26, was killed in the same bombing.
97. Kifah Shahada Deeb al-Ghanam, 20, was killed in the same bombing.
98. Ra’ed Hani Abu Hani, 31, was killed in a bombing in Rafah.
99. Shahraman Ismail Abu al-Kas, 42, was killed in a bombing in a refugee camp in central Gaza.
100. Mazen Mustafa Aslan, 63, was killed in the same bombing.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:14 PM on July 11, 2014 [3 favorites]


If you really think normal Israelis, or their leaders, are shrugging off this sickening murder and its sickening perpetrators, I just don't even know what to say.

Have they leveled the houses of the perpetrators' families? Because what was done wasn't just a murder but an act of terrorism, and thus the state should treat it as it would any other such act. Or they can renounce the use of collective punishment period.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:20 PM on July 11, 2014


Have they leveled the houses of the perpetrators' families?

I don't like this policy myself, but the reasoning behind it is to counter the financial incentives offered to Palestinians and their families for murdering Israelis. There was no financial incentive for the Israeli murderers to perform their heinous act, so punishing them financially doesn't make sense.
posted by rosswald at 12:30 PM on July 11, 2014 [1 favorite]




Amnesty International is calling for a UN-mandated international investigation into violations committed on all sides amidst ongoing Israeli air strikes across the Gaza Strip and continuing volleys of indiscriminate rocket fire from Palestinian armed groups into Israel.

Since Israel launched Operation “Protective Edge” in the early morning of 8 July, more than 100 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip, most of them civilians who were not directly participating in hostilities. This includes at least 24 children and 16 women as of Friday morning. More than 600 people have been wounded, many of them seriously. More than 340 homes in Gaza have been completely destroyed or left uninhabitable and at least five health facilities and three ambulances have been damaged. In Israel, at least 20 people have been wounded by rocket attacks and property has been damaged.
Israel/Gaza: UN must impose arms embargo and mandate an international investigation as civilian death toll rises
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:25 PM on July 11, 2014 [2 favorites]


How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza

The takeaway here is that Netanyahu knew almost immediately that the kidnapped boys were dead, but lied about it to whip up public sentiment, and that they also knew a renegade arm of Hamas was responsible, not Hamas proper, yet the affair was used as an excuse to attack Hamas (and the Palestinians) anyway. This goes beyond cynicism into insanity.
posted by Bromius at 8:42 PM on July 11, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't understand claims like this.

You're quoting me and then saying something which doesn't contradict what I said but in a way that makes it seem like it does, so I'm not sure?
posted by Justinian at 9:18 PM on July 11, 2014


I don't understand these claims that Hamas killed the 3 israeli kids.

Hamas' official position was that they would neither confirm or deny that they were responsible. [Google translate link to source] I don't know whether it has since changed. There's a definitional problem here, though. What is Hamas? We're not talking about a democratic body, or one with strict discipline and a clear operational hierarchy. If the claims in the link to the (Jewish, left-wing) Forward that Bromius supplied are correct, it was a group associated with Hamas, that work with Hamas, but which may or may not be Hamas. Because what does that even mean? Hamas is fundamentally a criminal organization; it has operational heads and spokespeople, but at a lower level there are a bunch of gang leaders and warlords who are Hamas in the sense that they are tolerated, or not, and cooperate, or not, and their actions are acknowledged, or not. The same goes for groups like Fatah: it's the party of Mahmoud Abbas and hence the Palestinian Authority; it's also the party of the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, which everyone acknowledges are terrorists. So how is Fatah Israel's partners for peace? Well, it's not convenient for Israel to acknowledge that Fatah is also the party of terrorism, so it mostly keeps quiet about it. Israel wants to have a peace process, even if it doesn't have peace, so it doesn't generally come out and say "Listen, Abbas only has a job because he's supported by Fatah, and Fatah is basically a criminal gang supported by his ex-gratia payments." Because if Israel did that, who does it have to talk to?
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:43 AM on July 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's one of the ironies of history that the criminal Israeli state tolerated and encouraged the criminal organization Hamas in its early days, viewing it as a useful counterbalance to the criminal secular/nationalist PLO.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:48 AM on July 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


con't

101. Mohammed Rabih Abu Humeidan, 65, was killed in shelling that struck northern Gaza.
102. Abdel Halim Ashra, 54, was killed in an airstrike on Wednesday in the area of Birka Deir al-Balah, but his body wasn’t discovered till Friday.
103. Saher Abu Namous, 3, was killed in an airstrike on his home in northern Gaza.
104. Hussein al-Mamlouk, 47, was killed in an airstrike on Gaza City.
105. Saber Sukkar, 80, was killed in an airstrike on Gaza City.
106. Nasser Rabih Mohammed Samamah, 49, was killed in an airstrike on Gaza City.

Saturday, July 12:
107. Rami Abu Massaad, 23, was killed in a strike on Deir al-Balah.
108. Mohammed al-Samiri, 24, was killed in the same attack.
109. Houssam Deeb al-Razayneh, 39, was killed in an attack on Jabalia
110. Anas Youssef Kandil, 17, was killed in the same bombing.
111. Abdel Rahim Saleh al-Khatib, 38, was killed in the same bombing.
112. Youssef Mohammed Kandil, 33, was killed in the same bombing.
113. Mohammed Idriss Abu Saninah, 20, was killed in the same bombing.
114. Hala Wishahi, 31, was killed in an attack on the Mabarra association for the disabled in Jabalia.
115. Suha Abu Saade, 38, was killed in the same attack.
116. Ali Nabil Basal, 32, was killed in a strike on western Gaza city.
117. Mohammed Bassem al-Halabi, 28, was killed in the same strike.
118. Mohammed al-Sowayti (Abu Askar), 20, was killed in the same attack.
119. Ibrahim Nabil Humaide, 30, was killed in a bombing in the Tufah neighborhood in eastern Gaza City.
120. Hassan Ahmed Abu Ghoush, 24, was killed in the same attack.
121. Ahmed Mazen al-Ballaoui, 26, was killed in the same attack

As of this minute, the death count is reportedly up to 127.

Al-akhbar (with its own problems) has a live blog here.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:34 PM on July 12, 2014 [4 favorites]


Gazan youth manifesto:

"Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA! We, the youth in Gaza, are so fed up with Israel, Hamas, the occupation, the violations of human rights and the indifference of the international community!

"We want to scream and break this wall of silence, injustice and indifference like the Israeli F16s breaking the wall of sound; scream with all the power in our souls in order to release this immense frustration that consumes us because of this fucking situation we live in...

"We are sick of being caught in this political struggle; sick of coal-dark nights with airplanes circling above our homes; sick of innocent farmers getting shot in the buffer zone because they are taking care of their lands; sick of bearded guys walking around with their guns abusing their power, beating up or incarcerating young people demonstrating for what they believe in; sick of the wall of shame that separates us from the rest of our country and keeps us imprisoned in a stamp-sized piece of land; sick of being portrayed as terrorists, home-made fanatics with explosives in our pockets and evil in our eyes; sick of the indifference we meet from the international community, the so-called experts in expressing concerns and drafting resolutions but cowards in enforcing anything they agree on; we are sick and tired of living a shitty life, being kept in jail by Israel, beaten up by Hamas and completely ignored by the rest of the world.

"There is a revolution growing inside of us, an immense dissatisfaction and frustration that will destroy us unless we find a way of canalising this energy into something that can challenge the status quo and give us some kind of hope.

"We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the Earth. During the last years, Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want.

"ENOUGH! Enough pain, enough tears, enough suffering, enough control, limitations, unjust justifications, terror, torture, excuses, bombings, sleepless nights, dead civilians, black memories, bleak future, heart-aching present, disturbed politics, fanatic politicians, religious bullshit, enough incarceration! WE SAY STOP! This is not the future we want! We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask?"

This manifesto gains significance when considered with Doug Saunders's article in this morning's Globe and Mail: "Arab's are in chaos, but they're only passing through". Saunders writes:

"Juan Cole, a Mideast scholar at the University of Michigan, has written the mirror-image book. His field work, in the same countries over a similar period, was among Arab liberal and nationalist movements (that is, anti-Islamists). His book, The New Arabs: How the Millennial Generation is Changing the Middle East, concludes that the Arab revolutions are now where the French Revolution was in 1852, and where Eastern European democracy was after the Prague Spring was crushed in 1968: trapped between thesis and antithesis, waiting for the next generation to step in.

That (huge) young Arab generation, he notes, is less prone to fall for the logic of illiberal democracy versus undemocratic faux-liberalism: It is far more literate, urban and connected and, crucially, measurably less religiously observant or interested in sharia law. Or most of it is: There is a “polarization” of Arab millennials “with most of them tending to be less observant but a significant number supporting fundamentalism. Some of the vehemence of the religious right,” he notes, “may be in part a reaction against this decline in the proportion of observant Muslims in this generation.” As other scholars have noted, fundamentalism tends to be a response to a wider secularization of society."
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:39 PM on July 12, 2014 [10 favorites]


My god, whyareyouatriangle, THAT gives me hope. Thank you. Is there a similar manifesto coming from Israeli youth?

Can you imagine the power if there were, and the two connected? Youth on both sides telling all the old men killing them to just fucking stop it already?

Thank you. Seriously and sincerely. My shriveled little heart grew two sizes today from you posting that. Thank you.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:10 PM on July 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


Feckless fecal fear mongering: That's actually a pretty mainstream position in Israel.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:11 PM on July 12, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's also denying that it's denying it, as I linked to above. But in any event, the current conflict between Hamas and Israel is only coincidentally associated with the killings, so it's a bit of a red herring.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:43 PM on July 12, 2014


Also, it seems pretty bullshit when Israel is talking about striking back for these acts, when they haven't even convicted anyone of this. Thats something I would expect out of Iran or Qaddafi or an ayatollah or something.

The Shin Bet has imprisoned the Israelis accused of killing the Palestinian teen - neither the PA nor Hamas have accomplished the same of the Palestinians who killed the Israelis.

Speaking of the Shin Bet, they claim that "Israeli forces thwarted in 2013 over 50 attempts by Palestinian terrorists to abduct Israelis. 14 attempts by Hamas and others were thwarted since January 2014."

It would seem that Hamas is constantly looking to take Israeli hostages, so whether the kidnapping was a stamped plan directly from Khaled Mashaal or was just Hamas members taking advantage of a random situation Hamas shares a lot of responsibility for the killings of the teens.
posted by rosswald at 7:28 PM on July 12, 2014 [2 favorites]


It would seem that Hamas is constantly looking to take Israeli hostages, so whether the kidnapping was a stamped plan directly from Khaled Mashaal or was just Hamas members taking advantage of a random situation Hamas shares a lot of responsibility for the killings of the teens.

How does Hamas share responsibility for the kidnappings if they neither knew about the abduction/killings of the 3 Israelis beforehand, nor had any hand in carrying it out (and since the crime was not even carried out in an area that they control; it happened in the West Bank)? Despite what you may think of Hamas otherwise, they seem like a completely innocent party wrt that crime.

(Btw if you want to talk about numbers of Palestinians vs numbers of Israelis being abducted/jailed/etc., I don't think you're going to like which side comes out of that looking worse. Hint: military occupations result in a lot of arbitrary detentions.)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:41 AM on July 13, 2014


Feckless fecal fear mongering: That's actually a pretty mainstream position in Israel.

"Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA!" is a mainstream position in Israel? That seems unlikely.

I mean, maybe that position is held by someone like AATW but certainly no one mainstream or in power in Israel.

(Or maybe you were referring to something else, Joe? But that's what it seems to be that you're saying...)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:02 AM on July 13, 2014


I meant fffm's paraphrase: " Youth on both sides telling all the old men killing them to just fucking stop it already".

But there's probably a big contingent that would subscribe to yours, too. Israel's a pretty left wing country.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:37 AM on July 13, 2014


But there's probably a big contingent that would subscribe to yours, too. Israel's a pretty left wing country.

Mmm... I don't know about that. Israel's current and historical actions do not befit a country that I would describe as "left."

And regardless of its military actions / foreign policy, the internal culture seems to be drifting rightward (or, perhaps one may argue that it was always this way and there is no drift).
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:24 AM on July 13, 2014


A couple engaging articles I found this morning:


Repetition and Death in the Colony: On the Israeli Attacks on Gaza
Repetition is merely the sign for the oppressed to surrender to fate. Either you accept your suffering or you unleash more suffering. Only eventual freedom will give meaning to the deaths of Gazans.

At the moment of writing these lines, the BBC reports 100 deaths thus far in Gaza in the recent Israeli onslaught. As we have seen these scenes before, the invocation of repetition comes naturally. “Once again” is a commonly used word when it comes to death and suffering under occupation in Palestine and specifically Gaza.1 It can be a rhetorically deployed knee-​jerk reaction (as in: once again Israel is killing Palestinians; or: once again Israel has to defend itself against Palestinian attacks). It can also be deployed by a well-​meaning third party who perceives the rhetorical deployment of “once again” as a propaganda war between two parties involved in a tragic conflict. Repetition is equated with futile death.


On the Gaza Border by Ben Ehrenreich
I WENT YESTERDAY to Sderot, the largest Israeli town that borders the Gaza strip. I had been there once before and had noticed the strange abstractness of the place, and been creeped out by it. All crappy suburbs feel abstract, presenting more the idea of living — houses, streets, schools — than the messiness and uproar of actual life, but Sderot’s sterility goes deeper, accentuated by the cement bomb shelters attached to every dwelling, and the public shelters at bus stops and in parks. All of them, in their concrete and often graffitied shabbiness, are devoted to the protection of “life,” bare life, or something like it — something that feels a lot like death. Which makes life — this sweating, pulsing, vertiginous thing — feel somehow insufficient, obscene, undeserving of these squat, sepulchral monuments. Which is perhaps why the local kids feel compelled to spray-paint them, drink beer in them, break bottles and pee in the corners. Life finds a way to revolt.

How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza: Kidnap, Crackdown, Mutual Missteps and a Hail of Rockets
In the flood of angry words that poured out of Israel and Gaza during a week of spiraling violence, few statements were more blunt, or more telling, than this throwaway line by the chief spokesman of the Israeli military, Brigadier General Moti Almoz, speaking July 8 on Army Radio’s morning show: “We have been instructed by the political echelon to hit Hamas hard.”

That’s unusual language for a military mouthpiece. Typically they spout lines like “We will take all necessary actions” or “The state of Israel will defend its citizens.” You don’t expect to hear: “This is the politicians’ idea. They’re making us do it.”

# PALESTINE /// Infrastructural and Militarized Cartography of Gaza
As the military siege on Gaza (the fourth since the 2005 evacuation of the Israeli settlers) continue to kill every day (81 Palestinian killed in bombings so far), I go back, once again to the idea that we should as much focus on the exceptional violence that affects many of us emotionally, as on the normal violence that unfolds itself on a daily basis upon what has been legitimately named “the largest prison on earth (1.65 millions inhabitants). Let it be clear, making maps won’t save any life, and the production of knowledge during urgent situation is always problematic. Moreover, maps tend to be disincarnated and therefore carry the risk of a desensitization on the contrary of photographs and/or videos that allow us to identify with situated bodies. There is therefore a need for articulating the emotional approach to violence — it manifests most of the time through the notion of spectacular — with a more structural and analytical approach of it, as I have been recently writing again.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 1:23 PM on July 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israel's current and historical actions do not befit a country that I would describe as "left."

Really? Can you contrast Israel's behavior with that of another country in similar circumstances? As for the links you quoted, one has been thoroughly debunked (which is why it's from 2013 and hasn't got a current followup); three are from more-or-less hate sites (i.e., Mondoweiss and Electronic Intifada); the last shows Israelis from Sderot (i.e., the place that is perpetually subject to missiles from Gaza) cheering on the IDF's response. And well, I don't think I would be piously wringing my hands under those circumstances either.

Here's why I would describe Israel as left-wing: because it's a vibrant participatory democracy with universal health care and education, state welfare at all levels of society, and many socialised enterprises. Hal_c_on linked to Ha'aretz's outraged report that a (small) groups of thugs attacked a (smallish) anti-war demonstration and, apparently, got away with it because the attack occurred while the police and demonstrators were running for shelter from a rocket attack. Wow! Do you know anywhere else in the world that police would be defending anti-war protestors during an actual attack on their country?
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:40 PM on July 13, 2014 [2 favorites]


Really? Can you contrast Israel's behavior with that of another country in similar circumstances?

Sure: "Meanwhile, those who speak for the Israeli government go around claiming that no state could tolerate missiles being fired into its territory and that any state would have to retaliate. This is false, indeed absurd: much of British policy in Northern Ireland in the 1970s and 80s was deplorable, but though the IRA fired plenty of mortar rounds across the border, nobody seriously contemplated taking out “terror operatives” by aerial bombardment of civilian housing in the Irish Republic."

(In any event there could be no historical parallel and that still would not make Israel "left.")

As for the links you quoted, one has been thoroughly debunked

Oh?

three are from more-or-less hate sites (i.e., Mondoweiss and Electronic Intifada)

The idea that Mondoweiss and EI are hate sites is absurd. They just happen to critique the Israeli government in some of their material. That does not a hate site make.

Hate is what that Mondoweiss article is quoting the Israeli girls as saying -- things like "Hating Arabs isn't racism it's a commandment from God."

And well, I don't think I would be piously wringing my hands under those circumstances either.

Would you be cheering on the massacre of another people (current death score: 167-0)? That's depraved, and that's what those Israelis in Sderot are doing. That's why people find that picture upsetting.

I don't disagree with you that Israel is a social democracy (Palestinian discrimination inside Israel proper aside, and ignoring the whole occupation thing, if we can) and has features that one might expect of one. But its shortcomings in the foreign policy field are grave. That's what people who take issue with Israel's policies are mad about -- not the fact that Israelis have health care.

Wow! Do you know anywhere else in the world that police would be defending anti-war protestors during an actual attack on their country?

I can't get to the Haaretz article about the protest because it's paywalled. Here's one from the Jerusalem Post. The demonstrators appear to be alleging that the police were not protecting them.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:24 PM on July 13, 2014 [1 favorite]


I find it funny that the initial proof that Israel isn't a leftist country was to a leftist Israeli daily-newspaper. A popular paper further to the left (by most definitions) than any daily I see in the US. One rightist attack on protesters doesn't color the politics of an entire country.

Would you be cheering on the massacre of another people (current death score: 167-0)? That's depraved, and that's what those Israelis in Sderot are doing. That's why people find that picture upsetting.

Silly and melodramatic. First, Sderot is right on the border of Gaza and the city has been hit by rocket and mortar fire from Hamas long before other Israeli cities were in range. Decades. Even during "ceasefires" there are still several rockets a week hitting the city. Personally, I can see why they especially would be glad when a launching-site gets hit.

Speaking of rocket-sites, the current numbers (BBC) has Israel striking 1,320 sites resulting in 172 deaths. If I math correctly, for 87% of all the strikes not a single person was killed - something everyone should cheer for.
posted by rosswald at 7:26 PM on July 13, 2014


Palestinians in Hebron cheer as Gaza rockets fly toward Israeli population centers

Hundreds of Arabs Celebrate atop Temple Mount after rocket attacks on Jerusalem

West Bank Palestinians Cheer Hamas rocket attacks Israel
(2012)

Probably a cheap shot, but here's 2001 as well.

Fatah's other official response to the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens.

Depraved, indeed.

The way this thread has devolved is appalling. There isn't any atrocity Hamas can commit that won't be handwaved away by some of you, while Israel - still under attack from hundreds of missiles and rockets aimed directly at civilian centers - is being called out as monstrous for (gasp) acting like Palestinians. Calling it a "death score" is just icing on the cake. The death toll lies squarely on Hamas's shoulders. Both Ban Ki-moon and Abbas have called on Hamas to end the attacks. Only here in the last couple days of this thread are they not even mentioned by those screaming about how awful it is to attack civilians.

I wish the loss of human life were lower - were zero, if possible. I absolutely wish no children were hit. But the lack of Israeli casualties is not because Hamas isn't bloodthirsty, it's because Israeli families build bomb shelters under their homes and flee into them when under attack. Right now what we're seeing below Gaza homes are weapons caches, and Hamas spokesmen urging their people to rush to their rooftops when alerted (alerted! called and notified!) that bombs are about to fall.
posted by Mchelly at 7:37 PM on July 13, 2014 [4 favorites]


And just to be clear, I only posted the first few links in my last comment as a direct response to the charges against Israelis in Sderot as being unusually "depraved". I don't think it's appropriate to point fingers at the way ordinary people under severe stress react to what looks at the outset like relief from oppression. What matters is the official response of the governments. Israel is still sending out knocks on the roof and doing the most any army could possibly do, attempting to limit civilian casualties. Hamas is still aiming rockets directly at civilian targets and telling their citizens to act as human shields. There is a difference.
posted by Mchelly at 7:45 PM on July 13, 2014


Would you be cheering on the massacre of another people (current death score: 167-0)? That's depraved, and that's what those Israelis in Sderot are doing.

You have no idea what they're doing. You have a photograph (source) of people watching the assault on Gaza, and a claim that they clapped when they heard blasts. You don't even know if anyone was killed during those particular bombings: according to the figures rosswald cites above, the odds are good that they weren't.

The people in Sderot are under regular assault from Gaza. The people there are the victims of both direct violence and PTSD. A few months back there was a study showing a 59% rise in spontaneous abortions for Sderot women, compared to women without similar stress levels. How can you presume to judge them? As for calling the IDF's strikes depraved, you're confusing the fire and the firemen. It is Hamas' attacks that are depraved, and each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:48 PM on July 13, 2014


Incidentally, it's ironic that some posters here think worse of Israelis than Hamas does. Hamas tells Gazans to go to the roofs of buildings targeted by the IDF, because it believes Israelis are so compassionate that they will accept rocket fire rather than deliberately take civilian lives ...
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:56 PM on July 13, 2014 [1 favorite]




Responding to a bunch of comments...

One rightist attack on protesters doesn't color the politics of an entire country.

And by that logic, one paper that is more left than a mainstream paper one can find in the US (which I agree Haaretz is -- no one like, say, Gideon Levy in the US) does not color the politics of an entire country. In any event, Israel is still occupying Palestinian territory.

Personally, I can see why they especially would be glad when a launching-site gets hit.

But that's just the point! Despite what the Israeli army may be telling you, these strikes don't surgically take out rocket launching sites. Perhaps some do, but inevitably there's "collateral damage" and innocent civilians get killed. Lots of them. (If these strikes are so effective, one must wonder why the rockets keep flying out of Gaza.)

If I math correctly, for 87% of all the strikes not a single person was killed - something everyone should cheer for.

Let me remind you that even if the Israeli munitions don't kill, they could wound or destroy infrastructure. Just because the attack isn't deadly doesn't mean harm isn't caused.

In any case, I don't applaud missiles being launched at defenseless civilian populations, even if they happen to not kill anyone. I suppose that's a difference between us.

There isn't any atrocity Hamas can commit that won't be handwaved away by some of you

Has anyone in this thread, or anyone identifiable in US public life, stood up and applauded Hamas' actions? Anyone? No, and that's because no one that is concerned about human rights, including myself, views Hamas as a completely innocent party in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sure, there's plenty of blame that falls at their feet. But there's a larger context, with other actors, one of which is far more powerful, violent and culpable.

But the lack of Israeli casualties is not because Hamas isn't bloodthirsty, it's because Israeli families build bomb shelters under their homes and flee into them when under attack.

Sure, that's a contributing factor, but the more important one is that the Gazans' weapons (in the vast majority of cases) are completely pathetic. They're what Middle East scholar Juan Cole calls "8th grade chemistry experiments."

Hamas spokesmen urging their people to rush to their rooftops when alerted (alerted! called and notified!) that bombs are about to fall.

It's sad to realize, but the only defense that Gazans have against Israeli attacks is throwing their bodies between Israeli weapons and their homes. The lack of empathy required to condemn the Palestinians for doing this (regardless of whether it is Hamas' idea or not, which in most cases I presume it isn't) is astounding.

The Palestinians don't do this to appeal to the Israelis' compassion. They do it because the only thing that may -- just may (and even this seems doubtful most of the time, sadly) -- prevent further fire from raining down on them is the world's shock at the appalling body count that is mounting.

Israel is still sending out knocks on the roof and doing the most any army could possibly do, attempting to limit civilian casualties.

With regard to texting the phones of homes the Israelis are about to bomb: if someone texted you and told you your house was going to be destroyed, would you consider that an act of kindness or an act of terrorism? Palestinians would consider it the later, I imagine. (And there are the logistical objections: what if the Israelis don't have the right number; what if the Israelis don't give enough lead time before they attack; what if the person with the phone is not home but the rest of the family is; etc.)

But the Israelis were not content with that. Now they're telling one hundred thousand Gazans to leave their homes in advance of a purported strike. This is mass psychological terror. Not a nice favor that the Israelis are doing the Gazans. (And, not to mention, completely impractical -- the Gaza strip is a tiny piece of land that is for the most part completely sealed off from the outside world... where are these people supposed to go to be safe from bombing?)

You have no idea what they're doing.

We have a news report.

It is Hamas' attacks that are depraved

Agreed, just in case there is any doubt at this point, which I hope there is not.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:49 AM on July 14, 2014 [1 favorite]


Noisy Pink Bubbles, I checked your claim that "the IRA fired plenty of mortar rounds across the border". I haven't been able to find any references to support this. Did they in fact fire any mortar rounds across the border? And how could this be relevant to the present situation, given that the IRA was neither based in nor governing the Republic of Ireland?

the Gazans' weapons (in the vast majority of cases) are completely pathetic. They're what Middle East scholar Juan Cole calls "8th grade chemistry experiments."

This is nonsense, and a disgraceful attempt to minimise attacks on civilians.


It's sad to realize, but the only defense that Gazans have against Israeli attacks is throwing their bodies between Israeli weapons and their homes.

You're obviously not talking about collateral damage; you're talking about houses targetted by Israel, presumably because they are used for military purposes. A far better defense would be not storing missiles in the homes, and not allowing them to be fired from there.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:27 AM on July 14, 2014


Can you contrast Israel's behavior with that of another country in similar circumstances?

South Africa under Apartheid is the obvious and most accurate comparison.

I wish the loss of human life were lower - were zero, if possible. I absolutely wish no children were hit. But the lack of Israeli casualties is not because Hamas isn't bloodthirsty, it's because Israeli families build bomb shelters under their homes and flee into them when under attack.

Again, many seem to compare Israel and Hamas and subject them to the same moral calculus--when in fact they are completely and essentially different types of entities. Israel is an extremely powerful state. Hamas is a moderately powerful gang that rules an open-air prison called Gaza. Gazans can't even get clean drinking water, Israelis can build bomb shelters under the homes.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:04 AM on July 14, 2014 [12 favorites]


Joe in Australia: A far better defense would be not storing missiles in the homes, and not allowing them to be fired from there.

This assumes the homeowner has a level of choice equivalent to someone who does not live in a war zone with armed gangs.
posted by spaltavian at 8:02 AM on July 14, 2014 [2 favorites]


Following assaults on anti-war protesters in Tel Aviv, parties on Left demand answers
One of the people at the center of the right-wing counter- protest was rapper Yoav Eliasi, better known by his stage name “The Shadow.”

Ahead of the protest Eliasi called for people to come to the square, saying that “at 8 p.m.

we’ll be there in full force like lions.”

The morning after the protest, amid reports of violence and attacks on left-wing protesters, he wrote on his Facebook page that the police officers at the scene “were great to us and we could see on the faces of the riot cops the pride and satisfaction they felt towards us.”

Eliasi thanked the far-right group Lahava for taking part in the protest as well as what he said were a group of Betar FC fans, Kahanists, and other far-rightists.

He added: “Together we are a force against the real enemy that circles among us – the radical Left.”
2 Israelis Wore Neo Nazi Shirts During Attack on Anti War Protest in Tel Aviv
On July 12th, a violent fascist mob led by ultras attacked an anti war protest in Tel Aviv. Two of the participants could be seen wearing blatant neo nazi t-shirts that read “good night left side.” For those who are not familiar with this slogan, it’s used by neo nazi groups all over Europe and in the US to combat the original “Good Night White Pride” slogan used by antifascists.
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:55 AM on July 14, 2014


"the Gazans' weapons (in the vast majority of cases) are completely pathetic. They're what Middle East scholar Juan Cole calls "8th grade chemistry experiments.""

Bullshit. Syrian-made M-302, also used by Hezbollah, with a range of 100Km. Also Iranian made Fajr-5, with a range of 75km. That in a country slightly bigger than New Jersey (much smaller if you discount the Negev that's not involved in this war at all).
posted by gertzedek at 12:41 PM on July 14, 2014 [2 favorites]


"Is there a similar manifesto coming from Israeli youth? "

It's incredible how people forget or ignore that Israel, contrary to all other countries in the region, has an actual functioning civil society. Just look at the anti-war protests in mentioned in the post above.
posted by gertzedek at 12:49 PM on July 14, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe in Australia: A far better defense would be not storing missiles in the homes, and not allowing them to be fired from there.

Spaltavian: This assumes the homeowner has a level of choice equivalent to someone who does not live in a war zone with armed gangs.

Yes, that's a very fair point. On the other hand, those home owners are sheltering missiles that will be used to commit war crimes. Even if Hamas really does force unwilling people to shelter missiles (I think operational security would make this unlikely, but who knows) the owners' property interests do not take priority over Israel's need to defend its citizens. This scenario is explicitly referred to in the Geneva Conventions, as it happens: military targets don't become civilian just because civilians are stationed there.

Hamas, incidentally, is more than an armed gang. It is actually the government of Gaza; it claimed (with good reason) to be the legitimate ruling party of the Palestinian Authority; and it's been part of the Palestinian unity government since the beginning of June.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:50 PM on July 14, 2014 [3 favorites]


I think that the assumption that every casualty is a "Human Shield" is misguided and enables the continuing tragedy. Really, does anyone believe that when you drop hundreds of bombs, all of the children you kill deserved it?
posted by mikelieman at 2:01 PM on July 14, 2014 [7 favorites]


Israel has tried encouraging civlians to leave the area to avoid being killed but then... Hamas calls on evacuated Gazans to 'return immediately.'

I am sure that 100% completely innocent people have died, but, in my mind, the fault lies with Hamas and their macabre-and-cynical doctrine. Earlier in the thread Noisy Pink Bubbles described Hamas' intentions as:
They do it because the only thing that may [...] prevent further fire from raining down on them is the world's shock at the appalling body count that is mounting.
Hamas has successfully weaponized the life of every person in Gaza. They make sure to sting Israel hard enough to provoke a response, and then wait for the body-count and pressure against Israel to grow.
posted by rosswald at 2:26 PM on July 14, 2014 [2 favorites]


Joe, wrt IRA mortars, see here and here and here, etc. (One could extend the analysis to other IRA tactics, as well.) One wonders what the author had in mind with his reference to the "IRA," since that has historically referred to a number of different groups. But I take his point that the British did not respond with massive aerial bombardment as collective punishment. Yes, there are clearly differences in the situations, as you point out.

This is nonsense, and a disgraceful attempt to minimise attacks on civilians.

I think we can distinguish between two things here:

1) The sophistication of rocket technology being used by Hamas, et al
2) The morality of using such rockets on civilian populations

I am pointing out that their weaponry sucks, generally speaking (yes, there are exceptions, as gertzedek points out). I am not condoning its use on civilian populations.

You're obviously not talking about collateral damage; you're talking about houses targetted by Israel, presumably because they are used for military purposes. A far better defense would be not storing missiles in the homes, and not allowing them to be fired from there.

Well, many Palestinians dispute that. It looks like there exist two competing straw man positions:

1) Every target that the Israelis hit is exclusively, unambiguously a military facility
2) Every target that the Israelis hit is a civilian home with no military value whatsoever

The truth of the matter is probably somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of targets, a lot of civilians, a lot of uncertainty, and the only news comes from parties with a point to push. I would wager that some targets are military targets, some are not, and some are mixed-use. But the Fog of War obscures what is really going on, unfortunately.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:02 PM on July 14, 2014 [1 favorite]


Noisy Pink Bubbles, I'm not sure if any of those mortars were actually fired across a border. The one fired on Downing St certainly wasn't; the ones fired on the Newry barracks probably weren't. I don't think any of them were fired at civilians; and the number of attacks was vastly lower: one of the Wikipedia articles you link to says that "between 1973 and early 1978 a total of 71 mortar attacks were recorded". And, of course, the IRA was not the government of the Republic of Ireland. There would have been no point in the British Army attacking the Republic of Ireland, because (a) that's not where the attacks were coming from; and (b) and the Republic of Ireland was also interested in stopping IRA violence.

In contrast, the government of Gaza is firing more mortars every day than the IRA fired in a year, at civilian areas, and from within their own territory.

Do you really find this at all comparable, to the extent that you can say Britain would not have behaved the way Israel is now doing?
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:18 PM on July 14, 2014 [1 favorite]


Interesting historical analysis: In defense of the Sderot cinema
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:55 PM on July 14, 2014


Certain members of political organizations are taking violent military actions against the State of Israel.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as "Certain terrorists are committing criminal actions against civil order."

And the solution to criminals isn't to drop bombs on their neighborhood, is it?
posted by mikelieman at 3:41 AM on July 15, 2014


These are not members of political organizations. These are not "certain terrorists". They are the de facto government of Gaza. They rule Gaza as clearly as the communist party rules China.
posted by gertzedek at 3:59 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]


If they're a government then there are a whole lot of UN conventions on treating civilian populations of that government during wartime. Is the Israeli Government in compliance?
posted by mikelieman at 4:11 AM on July 15, 2014


Additionally, if they're a government, then isn't the blockade of their nation a legitimate act of war?
posted by mikelieman at 4:12 AM on July 15, 2014


Yes, Hamas is at war with Israel.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:00 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]


Do you really find this at all comparable, to the extent that you can say Britain would not have behaved the way Israel is now doing?

Well, yes, in the way I stated: "But I take his point that the British did not respond with massive aerial bombardment as collective punishment." In that way Israel and Britain have had different responses to terrorism.

Keep in mind that the situation is more nuanced than you describe:

- Hamas is not the only Palestinian entity firing rockets; there are many who do who are "not the government" of Gaza
- The Israeli-Palestinian "border" is not an interstate border either, since Palestine is not a bona fide state
- Hamas employs tactics other than just firing mortars across the border; they also have operations in Israel proper
- The IRA at various points did have organization in both the Republic of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland
- There are periods of more or less rocket fire from Gaza; in particular I don't believe there were any rockets being fired in the period before the recent Israeli operations (but perhaps I'm wrong on that)
- There are various Palestinian factions (Fatah, for instance, who controls the West Bank) who are at odds with Hamas over a great deal from time to time

Point is I think you're getting derailed by your literalist interpretation of the blogger's argument. But again, I concede that, like most historical analogies, there are differences between the situations that one could point to.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:08 AM on July 15, 2014


They rule Gaza as clearly as the communist party rules China.

LOL. This is fucking absurd! If you're making the argument that Hamas is a government and that Gaza is a separate state than the West Bank. Then Hamas is literally the worst government ever.

Or, more specifically, there are very few characteristics that Hamas possesses that would enable one to accurately characterize Hamas as a national government. I'm a political scientist in training, if a fellow political scientist attempted to characterize a nonstate actor like Hamas as a national government I would seriously question their methodology.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:29 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]


BBC: Israel has resumed its air strikes on Gaza after its brief ceasefire was met with continuing rocket fire.
Israel had earlier accepted an Egyptian truce proposal for the conflict and stopped operations on Tuesday morning.

However, the armed wing of Hamas, which controls Gaza, rejected the initiative as a "surrender"
posted by rosswald at 7:05 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]


From the live blog at Haaretz:

4:15 P.M. Operation Protective Edge must end with the IDF "controlling all of the Gaza Strip," says Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, urging a stop to the "never-ending hesitation and asking of questions."

"Israel must go all the way," he added, speaking at a press conference. "A cease-fire is a tacit agreement that Hamas continue to build up its power. All the diplomatic formulations are, in this case, hurtful… A full takeover of the Gaza Strip is Israel's only course forward," said Lieberman, calling any cease-fire "nothing but a preparation for the next round" of fighting. "It is clear that Hamas will use any cease-fire to make more rockets and smuggle in more explosives."

The global pressures pushing for an Israeli return to its '67 borders are misguided, says Lieberman, and display the world's callous lack of concern for Israelis' security. The Foreign Minister cites Hamas' Gaza Strip rocket-fire as evidence that Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip in 2005 was a mistake. "We have to tell the world - you pressured us into [the disengagement], this is what your [beliefs] led to, and just because of that, you need to give us the backing now to go all the way."

posted by mediareport at 7:22 AM on July 15, 2014


Interesting: the top-trending Twitter hashtag in South Africa right now is #ExpelIsraeliAmbassadorToSA. Some more background.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:44 AM on July 15, 2014


"One Nation, With Liberty And Justice For All". Gets my vote.
posted by mikelieman at 7:48 AM on July 15, 2014






What happened to the Gaza 'cease-fire' and what happens next?
During the first few days of Operation Protective Edge there seemed to be a reluctance of the Egyptians to get involved too deeply. Following the death of the short-lived and one-sided "cease-fire", it seems that when Egypt finally acted, theycould have done so too quickly, without securing at least some minimal understanding with Hamas that they were prepared to go along.

Whether or not there is any truth to Hamas claims that they learned the terms of cease-fire from the media, it is clear there was little chance of them coming round at this point.
Seems like sort of a blow to al-Sissi, but it looks like Bibi's intent all along has been to fully reoccupy Gaza and I'm not sure al-Sissi would mind. Would anyone be sorry to see Hamas go? Why not have the UN occupy Gaza?

Three Israelis Confess to Revenge Killing of Palestinian, Officials Say
... as Muslims marked the end of the daylight Ramadan fast, the three suspects "patrolled Arab neighbourhoods of Jerusalem for a number of hours, in an attempt to find a victim to abduct, until they spotted Mohammed Abu Khudair".

Bundling him into their car, they drove to a forest outside the city where the 29-year-old suspect beat him on the head with a tyre iron (wheel brace) and, helped by the two 17-year-olds, doused him with fuel and lit it, the Shin Bet said.
I watched Israeli police beat my American cousin. Most Palestinian victims don’t even get that much attention.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:47 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]


NYT: Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

Guardian: Israel resumes air strikes after Hamas ceasefire rejection kills civilian: First Israeli killed in conflict by one of 50 rockets fired from Gaza during halt in Israeli bombardment, which has killed almost 200

"It is an optimistic man who opens his mirror shop in the midst of a one-sided and fragile ceasefire.

At his shop on Tuesday morning – an hour after Israel said it was pausing its assault on Gaza – Abdullah Sawafri, aged 62, was sitting outside with his glass cutting tools reading the Qur'an as Gaza's streets filled up in hope of an end to the current eight-day conflict.

"There have been no air strikes since nine this morning," he says, "so I'm optimistic. I haven't had any customers yet but I'm expecting people to call me to fix their broken windows.""
'I want peace. I'm exhausted by war': Gazans speak out amid brief lull
Gaza's streets fill with people as businesses open their doors for the first time in eight days and locals reflect on the conflict

posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:08 PM on July 15, 2014


"Palestinian health workers in Gaza are once again scrambling to cope with the casualties from the latest Israeli airstrikes which have killed nearly 200 people. FRANCE 24’s Gallagher Fenwick took a ride with an ambulance team.

Sirens wailing, the speedometer climbing to 120 miles, an ambulance screeches through the empty streets of Beit Lahia, a northern Gaza city located close to the border with Israel.

For over a week, ambulance workers in this blockaded, densely populated strip of land have been working round the clock as Israeli airstrikes wreck a deadly toll.

“There was an airstrike,” explains Mohammed Salah, a Palestinian medical worker as he dons surgical gloves in the ambulance, ready for the next round of casualties."
On the road in Gaza with Palestinian ambulance crew
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:23 PM on July 15, 2014


I think there will be a ground invasion now, unfortunately. Hamas rejected the ceasefire.
posted by Justinian at 2:08 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]




LOL. This is fucking absurd! If you're making the argument that Hamas is a government [...]

It is absolutely uncontroversial that Hamas governs the Gaza Strip. They have recently become part of the Palestinian Authority once again (at least officially), but it is indisputable that they are the de facto and perhaps de jure rulers of the Gaza Strip. From their page on Wikipedia:
Since 2007, Hamas has governed the Gaza Strip, after it won a majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament in the 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections and defeated the Fatah political organization in a series of violent clashes.
[my emphasis]
I don't mean to offend you, but you've made a bunch of statements above here that would make any informed reader roll their eyes. Claims like "Hamas isn't a government" and "Gazans can't even get clean drinking water" are just noise. There's definitely an informed discussion that could be had regarding the water supply in Gaza (which I believe is administered by Mufiz al-Makhalalati, the Health Minister for the Palestinian Government in the Gaza Strip, appointed by Hamas), but that discussion will never happen in a forum dominated by emotive and ill-informed agitprop.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:24 PM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]


Rosswald: I think that is very unlikely. I cannot imagine any other country taking similar care to avoid civilian casualties.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:25 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]


OK, this is surreal: Israel Electric Corp. workers brave rockets, restore power to Gaza

Also, watch Hamas rocket attacks in real time! Red Alert
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:16 PM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]


Legal opinion: Israel can cut off water, power to Gaza during conflict

Document states that imposing economic sanctions would be legal, that electricity is not a basic humanitarian need.


Israel is permitted to cut off water, fuel and electricity supplies to the Gaza Strip in response to hostile actions, according to a legal opinion submitted to the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee yesterday...The opinion was formulated by Prof. Avi Bell of Bar-Ilan University...The opinion states, “Imposing economic sanctions on the Gaza Strip, such as refraining from the supply of water, fuel and electricity, does not involve military power and is thus a legal measure, despite the collateral effect on the Strip’s residents.”

...The document states that electricity is not considered a basic humanitarian need, and therefore Israel can stop supplying electricity. “Moreover, Israel is permitted to attack power stations in Gaza and thus prevent Gaza from providing its own electricity. Similarly, Israel is permitted to stop supplying water, but it must allow the supply of water by a neutral third party, if such a party seeks to do so.”

posted by mediareport at 7:27 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]


(Btw, the free registration at Haaretz gets you 6 free articles a month, which you can probably extend by paying attention to your cookies, if you're the kind of person who doesn't mind going around paywalls.)
posted by mediareport at 7:28 PM on July 15, 2014


What part of "Hey stop killing each other and talk" is misunderstood by the people in power on both sides.

Children are being killed. Surely that is something that Islam and Judaism can agree is a bad thing? Please? I want to believe they can agree on that.

Because if they can't, there will be a land invasion and it will precipitate so, so much horror.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:40 PM on July 15, 2014


Hamas's position is essentially a theological one, laid out in its charter. It expressly rejects a number of positions, including the idea that non-Moslems can rule over any territory consecrated as a waqf (i.e., most of the Middle East) or that any negotiations or compromises with non-Moslems can be made. The charter possibly allows for non-Moslems to live in a Moslem state if they have been subjugated, but I'm not sure if this is meant practically: there are many references to the treacherous nature of Jews and the obligation to kill "enemies". And this duty, it says more than once, falls upon every Moslem - which means that from their perspective it isn't actually a bad thing for a Moslem child to die in the cause of "resistance".

Yes, this is crazy.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:44 AM on July 16, 2014


Hamas's position is essentially a theological one, laid out in its charter.

You're right that there's much in Hamas' charter that is crazytalk, but their actual negotiating positions are much more reasonable. They have been willing and able to dialogue with Israel in the past. The current "cease-fire" that they are refusing to accept is a return to what they see as an unacceptable status quo. But since Israel proposed something that they knew Hamas would reject, Israel gets to trumpet that it is the party that wants peace, making Hamas look like the guilty party (while conveniently omitting the details of the affair).
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:46 AM on July 16, 2014 [2 favorites]


Hamas rejected the ceasefire.

Worth noting again that the cease-fire was negotiated only between Israel's Netanyahu and Egypt's al-Sissi. Here's another good Haaretz behind-the-scenes piece about the process, which was done quietly between Israel and Egypt (both with their own reasons for keeping Kerry away), without involving Hamas in any meaningful way:

Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip were also surprised to learn of the Egyptian cease-fire proposal, especially Hamas, which still views itself as the sovereign in Gaza. All the factions knew that talks about a cease-fire were taking place, but they had expected Egyptian intelligence to fully coordinate any serious proposal with them, as had been the case in the past. They did not expect to hear about it from the media – nor did they expect that Egypt would coordinate with Israel but not with them.

When a member of the Israeli team asked whether Hamas would agree to the terms of the initiative, the Egyptians tried to reassure him, saying that if Israel agreed, Hamas would have no choice but to do the same.

In reality, the opposite occurred. The Egyptians gave Hamas’ political leadership minimal information and didn’t communicate with members of its military wing at all. The internal disputes between these two wings further contributed to the confusion, and to Hamas’ feeling that Egypt was pulling a fast one.

When the diplomatic-security cabinet met Tuesday morning, there was no real discussion of the Egyptian proposal. Netanyahu, one minister said, presented the proposal as a fait accompli to which no changes were possible.

“The general idea was that if the Egyptians had issued a cease-fire proposal, it would be inappropriate for Israel to reject it,” said one minister. “Netanyahu and Ya’alon told us this is an opportunity to strengthen the alliance with Egypt, and a positive response to the Egyptian proposal would earn us a lot of brownie points internationally and increased legitimacy to expand the operation against Hamas if needed. This was true and logical, and most of the ministers were convinced. But a few hours later, we discovered we’d made a cease-fire agreement with ourselves.”


It's a strange kind of cease-fire agreement that only "minimally" involves one of the two parties to the fighting, and stranger still to hold that party to an agreement they had no hand in negotiating.
posted by mediareport at 6:15 AM on July 16, 2014 [8 favorites]


Egypt proposed the terms of the ceasefire, not Israel. And your clam about their "actual negotiating positions" is just convenient apologia, like your claims about, e.g., the inoffensive nature of Hamas' weapons.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:21 AM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]


Despite the cease-fire being some kind of Israeli-Egyptian conspiracy (/s), the Arab League encouraged both sides to take the deal
posted by rosswald at 6:28 AM on July 16, 2014 [2 favorites]


Breaking the Silence: Israeli soldiers talk about the occupied territories

How an army of defense became an army of vengeance
I will never forget the evening my friends and I were sent to kill Palestinian police officers in a revenge attack. We went from soldiers sent to defend our families to murderers of innocent people.
As an ex-soldier in the Israeli Defense Forces, I've seen how shockingly we treat Palestinians
I remember a friend who had taken part in Cast Lead. He returned shaken by the fact that homes of “Hamas members” were deemed legitimate targets for bombing without any relation to the risk they posed to our soldiers in the field. That was the first time he had encountered such orders during his military service.
...
The same red line that was crossed during Operation Cast Lead has become the starting line for Operation Protective Edge. Homes of “Hamas members” were added to the IDF’s long list of potential targets in the Gaza Strip.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:46 AM on July 16, 2014


The night it became dangerous to demonstrate in Tel Aviv
The fascists attacked. Police didn’t respond in time and ran away when the sirens wailed. We were lucky to get away with only three injured, one in the hospital and many traumatized.
...
It made no difference that fascists had attacked demonstrators before (for example: just two weeks ago at the end of the demonstration outside the Defense Ministry) and the lesson was not learned – that these are the same gangs, among them masked men who rioted in Jerusalem just a week and a half ago, attacking Arabs. On the heels of the slogans and the incitement coming from the government, Muhammad Abu Khdeir was kidnapped and burned to death.

And then came the siren. The policemen disappeared. And the fascists attacked. They chased down people who were running to shelter, pushing them, swearing at them and sexually harassing them. With no other choice, we grouped up tightly, surrounded by a human chain, linked arm to arm. We called out all the slogans we had, to keep up morale and unity, to stay safe from fear, to cheer up in the face of the menacing, impassioned mass in front of us.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:29 AM on July 16, 2014


HRW suggests the airstrikes are illegal...
posted by faux ami at 11:29 AM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]


Despite the cease-fire being some kind of Israeli-Egyptian conspiracy (/s),

Do you have a specific objection or counter-evidence to the claims in the Haaretz piece I linked? There's really no need for snark here; Egypt's new leader is very much opposed to Hamas and vice versa (he destroyed the Muslim Brotherhood, for one reason), and it's hardly a "conspiracy" to read an Israeli newspaper's description of a process that kept Hamas almost completely in the dark (along with the far-right Israeli foreign minister, it should be noted), and think it's odd that folks are ignoring that when they talk about the cease-fire being violated.

Again, the article notes past Egyptian peace brokerings have always included input from Hamas; this one didn't. The political calculus of the anti-Islamist-extremist Egyptian leader is hardly something that should be dismissed offhand with kneejerk "ooh! conspiracy!" garbage. If you have input that Hamas was actually involved in the discussions, please feel free to share it.

Note: I'm making no claim aside from pointing out reporting from Israel that says Hamas was kept almost entirely out of the discussions about the terms of the cease-fire. I think that's relevant information in any discussion about it being violated.

(Joe, I assume your last comment was addressed to someone other than me, since it makes no sense otherwise, even though it appears right after mine.)
posted by mediareport at 3:52 PM on July 16, 2014


Israel shelling kills four kids on a beach in front of a hotel full of journalists.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:03 PM on July 16, 2014


For those who can handle a challenging perspective on the cease-fire, via Jewish Voice for Peace comes this Q&A with three "experts": FAQ on Failed Effort to Arrange Ceasefire Between Israel and Hamas

Here are their answers to the first question, "Why do you think Hamas didn't accept the terms of the ceasefire?"

RK - "Hamas has insisted that there be a lasting resolution of the basic problem of Israel's siege of Gaza, as was promised as part of the 2012 cease-fire, but never implemented in spite of Israel's recognition that Hamas scrupulously maintained the cease-fire until quite recently. The Egyptian proposal makes lifting of the siege conditional on Israel's approval, which means never."

MR - "Hamas, and with it other Palestinian organizations such as Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, have indicated that they were not consulted on the Egyptian cease-fire proposal, and that it has not been formally presented to them but rather released to the media after its terms were agreed with Israel.

"In terms of the proposal's contents, what these organizations and many Palestinians object to is that it simply restores a 2012 ceasefire agreement that Israel has systematically violated and does not provide any guarantees such violations would cease. These violations consist not only of periodic armed Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip, but also Israel's refusal to respect clauses on the rights of fishermen in Gaza's territorial waters and farmers in land close to the Gaza/Israel boundary. Hamas has additionally stated that it would not accept an agreement that does not provide for the immediate re-release of Palestinian prisoners who were released by Israel in 2011 as part of a prisoner exchange with Israel, but re-arrested by Israel in the last month.

"More broadly, Hamas and other Palestinian organizations are averse to returning to an untenable status quo, which lasts only until Israel once again decides to launch a major assault on the Gaza Strip, and which does not include concrete steps towards lifting the ongoing and prolonged blockade of the Gaza Strip.

"There is widespread Palestinian suspicion that Egypt, which has shown nothing but unremitting hostility towards Hamas since the current regime seized power in July 2013, released a proposal it ensured would be acceptable to Israel but rejected by the Palestinians, in order to help Israel legitimize an escalation of attacks against the Gaza Strip. It is likely to have done so in close cooperation with its new best friend, Tony Blair, and other advocates of Israeli power in the Arab world and internationally."

NE - “Within two days of Israel’s aerial assault on the population of the Gaza Strip, Hamas announced five conditions for a ceasefire: 1) stop the airstrikes; 2) observe terms of 2012 ceasefire; 3) release the Palestinians released during the Shalit prisoner exchange who were recently re-arrested; 4) lift the siege; and 5) don’t interfere with Palestinian unity government. What little is known about the proposed ceasefire agreement is that it demands a cessation of violence with no conditions thus reverting to conditions that are even worse than the status quo ante.

“This clearly weakens Hamas politically, exacerbates the humanitarian conditions under which Palestinians struggle, and emboldens Israel to strike again with zero accountability. That said, it is not in the Palestinians’ best interest for Hamas to continue launching rockets regardless of the circumstances, as it provides a justification for Israel to continue its brutal attacks on a defenseless and besieged population.”

posted by mediareport at 4:15 PM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]


How do you know it was an Israeli shell, and not a Hamas misfire? Reports from non-Israeli sources say that about a third of Hamas rocket attacks are misfires or fall short, and that these failures frequently cause Palestinian casualties. For instance, the HRW report faux ami linked ascribed ten Palestinian deaths to these attacks. The true figure is probably much higher, because Palestinian groups have every incentive to disguise these cases of friendly fire. It takes months or years for the truth to come out, if it ever does, as in the case of the child of a BBC editor whose death was originally blamed on an Israeli attack.

Practically all the data coming out of Gaza at present originates with Hamas. I'm sure Israel is responsible for some civilian casualties, but despite Hamas' claims, it is vanishingly unlikely that it's responsible for all of them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:24 PM on July 16, 2014


Well, as Joe caught, Noisy Pink Bubbles had said it was Israel's cease-fire proposal, which wasn't true. My larger point though was that the ceasefire was broached Monday night, 12 hours before the 9:00AM start. Israel's cabinet met at midnight to discuss (and approve) the plan, and this Ma'an article quotes a Hamas member as being aware of and discussing plan. And then (again, before the deadline) the Arab League passes a resolution in favor of the ceasefire.

So Hamas could certainly have accepted the proposal should they have wanted to.

As to Hamas' demands not being part of the cease-fire and that being the reason for them not accepting it... well, sure. Hamas would of course prefer additional conditions of the cease-fire that benefit them. But so would Israel. The fact that the terms of the cease-fire were acceptable to the Arab League is, to me, indicative that it was at least a reasonable proposal. And Hamas' rejection of the ceasefire meant that more people would die.
posted by rosswald at 4:28 PM on July 16, 2014 [2 favorites]


It is highly likely the Gazan children were killed by Israeli fire. The most details I could clean are from this BBC article:
We heard loud thuds by the coast and saw smoke rise behind a beachside hotel used by journalists. The boys who were killed were from a family of fishermen who work in the nearby port. It's understood that they were playing by a shipping container. Witnesses said the site was hit twice.

Hamas described the attack as a war crime, and called for the United Nations to condemn it. Israel's military says it's investigating what happened. It often targets open areas by the sea which are used by militants to launch rockets into its territory.
Certainly a tragedy.

Speaking of cease-fires, the BBC article also talks about a unilateral "humanitarian truce" in Gaza that was initiated by Israel, and it seems Hamas will abide as well. Hopefully it can be built upon...
posted by rosswald at 4:35 PM on July 16, 2014 [2 favorites]


glean
posted by rosswald at 4:44 PM on July 16, 2014


To the comment above re what was the cause of the beach deaths, the ratio of deaths caused by enemy versus "friendly" fire, per the HRW press release, is approximately 50:1. These figures do not account for injuries, which if included would considerably increase the ratio. Even were the friendly fire incidents underreported fivefold, the preponderance of injuries and deaths would still be caused by enemy and not friendly fire. That, plus the fact that the firing appeared to come from offshore per reporters on scene weigh heavily in favor of an assessment that this was not friendly fire. Also, HRW has its own people on the ground in these emergency situations, so the numbers are not sourced solely from partisans.
posted by faux ami at 5:23 PM on July 16, 2014 [2 favorites]


HRW suggests the airstrikes are illegal...

Well, no, they're suggesting that some of the airstrikes are illegal. They're probably right although its impossible to say for certain without access to Israeli or American intelligence which is not going to be forthcoming. But I'm reasonably convinced they're correct.

That's not the same as saying that airstrikes in Gaza are illegal, it's saying that Israel appears to be sometimes hitting illegal targets. Which isn't quite the same thing.

Virtually all of Hamas' attacks are illegal, of course.
posted by Justinian at 6:12 PM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]


NSFW
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:37 PM on July 16, 2014


To the comment above re what was the cause of the beach deaths, the ratio of deaths caused by enemy versus "friendly" fire, per the HRW press release, is approximately 50:1.

Those two figures don't have any relationship to each other, because sometimes you have more Palestinian rockets (in absolute terms) and sometimes you have more air strikes. Also, the mixture of IDF targets isn't necessarily the same at all times: rockets aimed at civilian areas, like now, will cause more deaths than rockets aimed at (e.g.) mortars or tunnels out in the Gaza countryside. I think a better way to assess it is by looking at the number of deaths (or injuries) caused by Palestinian rocket launches versus the number of launches. Call that the Palestinian friendly fire rate, and multiply it by the total number of launches during the present operation.

As I said above, GANSO is based in Gaza and doesn't seem to have an axe to grind. They issue bi-weekly reports that identify IDF attacks, Palestinian rockets and mortars, and other internal or external conflicts affecting Gaza. I downloaded the last four months of GANSO biweekly reports (here) and found the following:
Period          Rockets1    Failures2   Injuries3   Deaths4
 6 Mar  - 19 Mar     64           23           4         1
20 Mar -  2 Apr       4            3          10         1
 3 Apr - 16 Apr      17            5           6         3
17 Apr - 30 Apr      23            6           1         0
 1 May - 15 May       8            1           0         0
16 May - 28 May       1            0           0         0
29 May - 11 Jun       8            4           0         0
12 Jun - 25 Jun      41           24           7         1

Total               166           66          28         6
Rocket failure rate: 40% (approx)
Friendly fire injury rate: 17 per hundred rockets (approx)
Friendly fire death rate: 3.6 per hundred rockets (approx)

Note: I have included injuries and deaths that are due to "unexploded ordnance". Some of this unexploded ordnance may be Israeli, but I presume that (a) the high Palestinian rocket failure rate means that most unexploded ordnance is Palestinian; (b) deaths due to Israeli ordnance would be blamed on Israel; (c) deaths due to unexploded ordnance are most likely to occur when the ordnance is collected for re-use, and is therefore ascribable to rocket manufacture.
1 As reported by GANSO.
2 I have not counted rockets as failures if GANSO describes them as "tests".
3 These include injuries or fatalities that are described as being due to rockets that exploded prematurely, rockets that fell short, and unexploded ordnance.
4 See note (3).
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:17 PM on July 16, 2014


Based on the figures in my last comment, I suspect there have been approximately 62 Palestinian deaths due to failed rocket launches.

The IDF presently reports 1,350 rocket launches, of which 1,027 hit Israel. This would represent a launch failure rate of only 31.5%, but presumably does not include rockets that failed to launch altogether. I have therefore grossed the total number of launches up to represent the same failure rate as shown earlier, which implies 1,712 attempted launches. This in turn implies approximately 291 Palestinian injuries due to friendly fire, and approximately 62 deaths.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:18 PM on July 16, 2014


An eyewitness account of the attack that killed four children on Gaza beach
The IDF Spokesperson unit had difficulty coming up with an explanation for the explosions which killed the four children and wounded others and it took a few hours for them to begin to respond. Toward 8 P.M they began briefing reporters that the first explosion was most likely caused by an attack on a "legitimate" Hamas target and the second the result of misidentification of the fleeing children as Hamas fighters. The incident is still under investigation, said IDF Spokesperson Brigadier General Moti Almoz. He said on Channel One that "we understand there was a target which was hit after suspects were identified.
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:26 AM on July 17, 2014


So Israel agree not once but twice to an unconditional ceasefire and Hamas do nothing but keep attacking? I do not understand what moral framework they are working within. Even if they fully guilt the Israeli government for the Gazan deaths so far, to forgo the chance to stop that killing by simply saying, "for now", seems little more than spite. Spite is neither moral nor politic, and runs against the best interests of the people Hamas seek to represent.
posted by Thing at 3:07 AM on July 17, 2014


Can anyone explain Hamas' rationale here? Are they simply trying to get Israel to inflict civilian casualties? Bad food, bad smells at refugee shelter
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:35 AM on July 17, 2014


Can anyone explain Hamas' rationale here?

I encourage you to look at the very good FAQ that mediareport posted. Hamas doesn't want to return to a status quo that continues Israel's domination over the Gaza strip. And they are holding out for an actual cease fire agreement that takes into account their preferences.

Speaking of which, here are some alleged conditions that Hamas has put forward:
First – Opening all the crossing with the Gaza Strip.

Second – Opening Rafah crossing, the link between Gaza and Egypt, on a permanent basis, 24 hours per day with international guarantees it will not be closed.

Third – A maritime corridor to Gaza.

Fourth – Allowing residents of the Gaza Strip to pray in the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem.

Fifth – Israel will release the prisoners who were freed as part of the “Shalit” deal, and Israel will abide by the previous agreement reached by prisoners and the Israel Prison Service with Egyptian mediation in 2012.
Max Blumenthal linked to a similar, but different list of conditions on his Twitter feed:
1) The first demand, is the withdrawal of Israeli military tanks from the border fence area to a distance that enables Gaza farmers to access their fields and tend them freely.
2) Israel must free all Palestinian prisoners detained after the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers in the southern West Bank including those who were freed as part of Gilad Shalit prisoner swap. This precondition also includes softening procedures against all prisoners in Israeli custody.
3) A third demand stipulates that Israel ends the crippling siege on the coastal enclave, which means reopening all border crossings and allowing the entry of construction materials and all requirements needed to run the Gaza Strip’s power station.
4) The fourth demand stipulates the opening of an international seaport and international airport in the Gaza Strip to be run and monitored by the United Nations.
5) Hamas and Islamic Jihad also demanded that Israel increases the Gaza fishing zone to 10 nautical miles and allows Gaza fishermen to use large fishing ships.
6) Rafah crossing between Egypt and the Gaza Strip should be monitored by international crews from friendly and Arab countries.
7) Israel must commit to a ceasefire for 10 years which includes closing Gaza airspace to Israeli aircraft, it added.
8) Moreover, Israel must give Gaza residents permission to visit Jerusalem and pray in the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
9) Another stipulation demands that Israel abstain from any intervention in Palestinian internal affairs including political arrangements and the reconciliation agreement and all its consequences.
10) Finally, the Gaza industrial zone must be re-established.
(Maan News)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:58 AM on July 17, 2014 [6 favorites]


I meant, what rationale would justify firing rockets from a site next to a UN food distribution center in the middle of a cease fire?
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:02 AM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


The fact that the terms of the cease-fire were acceptable to the Arab League is, to me, indicative that it was at least a reasonable proposal.

How's that? The Arab states surrounding Israel/Palestine do not represent the Palestinians, and have used them as props and negotiating chips for decades. Just because their co-religionists accept something doesn't mean it's actually a good deal for them.

Obviously Hamas is to be faulted for not taking the deal, but this really gets the heart of the problem. Israel (and the Americans) want to choose who they negotiate with, and so they talk to people are do not have skin in the game, like the Arab League. But Hamas actually exists, and aren't going any where- in fact, the longer Israel makes Gaza an open-air prison, the more entrenched they will be. Nothing will change as long as Israel refuses to deal with a government that includes Hamas, all these "deals" with Egypt or the A.L. will continue to be meaningless.

I meant, what rationale would justify firing rockets from a site next to a UN food distribution center in the middle of a cease fire?

It's obvious what the rationale is. Are you actually asking, or hoping we'll forget what asymmetrical warfare is in our rush to condem? No reasonable person thinks Hamas should do that, and no one likes it. I imagine a lot of Palestine considers such tactics necessary evils given the current situation, just the same way advanced, traditional warfighting nations would consider collateral damage.
posted by spaltavian at 6:25 AM on July 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


I have no idea what the possible point could be.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:17 AM on July 17, 2014


"Hamas offers Israel 10 conditions for a 10 year truce:

According to Ma’ariv (Hebrew) these are the conditions:

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip."

Seems totally reasonable to me.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:49 AM on July 17, 2014


Seems totally reasonable to me.


Except they're demanding it at gunpoint, from someone who has a much bigger gun. So not only are they not going to get what they want, they're going to remove the political impetus for Israel to elect people who would be inclined to give it to them. Also, they're going to get a crapload of their own people killed. The demands are a stunt - if they work, Hamas is in a much better position politically, and can show that armed conflict gets them results. If they don't, they can go to the international press "See? Our demands are so reasonable!", and use that to drum up support for an economic sanctions on Israel, or at least fill the coffers with foreign donations.

TL;DR - the demands are reasonable, but they're likely not the goal of the current round of violence and acceding to them probably won't stop the rockets.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:59 AM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


Those aren't demands. They are conditions for a truce.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:01 AM on July 17, 2014


Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.


I am not really sure what countries there are that would amenable to both sides and would be willing to put their troops in Gaza. Having a neutral party in there to prevent Hamas from just using the lessening of a blockade to re-arm would be tricky. Would Swedish or Chinese troops arrest militants firing rockets? What about Hamas members?
posted by rosswald at 9:04 AM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


The UN.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:11 AM on July 17, 2014


I suspect there have been approximately 62 Palestinian deaths due to failed rocket launches.

So, of 300-some rockets fired from Gaza that did not reach Israel, there was an almost 90% injury rate and 20% death rate? That seems quite high. (It looked like the reports you pulled showed a death rate, using a very small sample, of only ~2%.) Meanwhile, injury and death rates from aircraft bombs are exceedingly higher. The 50:1 ratio is an overall ratio and could certainly be lower were a bunch of rockets fired off in a given area at a given time, absent aerial bombings at that time. But to get a nearly 1:1 or greater than 1 odds of these particular deaths being from friendly as opposed to friendly fire would take considerably more than a 2% friendly fire death rate. Also, are rocket failures this precise in terms of targeting?

It's saying that Israel appears to be sometimes hitting illegal targets

The press release documented four instances of what HRW claimed were illegal airstrikes. I believe HRW doesn't make claims without gathering their own evidence, which is difficult in emergency situations like this. One could imagine that the concerns raised in these four instances are present in some of the other bombings.
posted by faux ami at 9:12 AM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


Maybe someone knows more, but there is no standing UN army. They pull troops from member nations to act as peacekeepers.
posted by rosswald at 9:23 AM on July 17, 2014


Yes. And the UN can pull troops to act as peacekeepers from many nations like they have done many times in the past.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:25 AM on July 17, 2014


Yes, but I believe that member nations can accept or reject missions as they please. My point is that it may be hard to find member nations willing to put their troops in Gaza as peackeepers.
posted by rosswald at 9:28 AM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israel is never going to trust the UN to do it though. It would have to be American troops in a US operation, and that's going to go over like a lead balloon.
posted by spaltavian at 9:54 AM on July 17, 2014 [2 favorites]


I seem to recall a plan floated a while back that would have used the Swiss Guards as peacekeepers.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:18 AM on July 17, 2014


I seem to recall a plan floated a while back that would have used the Swiss Guards as peacekeepers.

That was Tom Clancy.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:25 AM on July 17, 2014 [7 favorites]


Would there be a 'law enforcement' element to their mission? Would the peacekeepers be responsible for keeping weapons out and arresting militants who fire at Israel?

I don't think it is impossible, but I am sure the Swiss or whoever will be reluctant to have an 'active' role which draws them further into the conflict. Just stationing troops at the borders and crossings doesn't seem like a effective option either...
posted by rosswald at 10:29 AM on July 17, 2014


UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) STRONGLY CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS IN SCHOOL
Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law.
posted by rosswald at 10:39 AM on July 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


That was Tom Clancy.

One of the few not-crackpotty ideas in his latter writing, imnsho...
posted by mikelieman at 11:26 AM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]




CNN is reporting that as well. But it's probably true anyway.
posted by Justinian at 12:51 PM on July 17, 2014 [2 favorites]






ABC News as well
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:16 PM on July 17, 2014




NBC News Pulls Reporter Who Witnessed Gaza Attack

Ayman Mohyeldin, the NBC News correspondent who personally witnessed yesterday’s killing by Israel of four Palestinian boys on a Gazan beach and who has received widespread praise for his brave and innovative coverage of the conflict, has been told by NBC executives to leave Gaza immediately. According to an NBC source upset at his treatment, the executives claimed the decision was motivated by “security concerns” as Israel prepares a ground invasion, a claim repeated to me by an NBC executive. But late yesterday, NBC sent another correspondent, Richard Engel, along with an American producer who has never been to Gaza and speaks no Arabic, into Gaza to cover the ongoing Israeli assault (both Mohyeldin and Engel speak Arabic).
posted by cell divide at 1:26 PM on July 17, 2014 [4 favorites]


Some live tweeting pics from Gaza.

Gaza beachfront hotels (I presume this means the journalists that are staying there, too?) have been told to evacuate.

Guardian live updates.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:32 PM on July 17, 2014


Great time after a plane crash.

Well, this was the AP's headline: ISRAEL INVADES GAZA AFTER HAMAS REJECTS TRUCE

I prefer their rationale.
posted by rosswald at 3:31 PM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


If there were a news cycle reason for the timing of the invasion, I would think it would be to change the headlines away from coverage of the beach killing of the Palestinian children.

But anyways, that's not terribly convincing, since it seems like Israel made the decision to invade on Tuesday.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:34 PM on July 17, 2014


Good.. Now they can restore civil order and arrest the criminal terrorists.
posted by mikelieman at 5:01 PM on July 17, 2014




I just read about the "Israeli Crowd Cheers" nest story, and can only think that it's happened hundreds of times in the past...the difference being that the crowd then was Palestinian. Are we holding Palestinians to lower moral standards than Israelis?
posted by Thing at 6:06 PM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


Sadly, it's common everywhere. There were certainly Americans cheering when the US started launching attacks in Iraq both times.
posted by Justinian at 6:14 PM on July 17, 2014 [6 favorites]


Well exactly, but I feel that there is a double standard here. My opinions at the beginning of this conflict were that both sides need to show restraint. But I don't think both sides have been treated fairly in the presentation of the conflict.
posted by Thing at 6:42 PM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm guessing very few people think both sides have been treated fairly but will be unable to agree on which side has been treated unfairly.
posted by Justinian at 6:45 PM on July 17, 2014


Those two figures don't have any relationship to each other, because sometimes you have more Palestinian rockets (in absolute terms) and sometimes you have more air strikes.

That is a perplexing statement to me... If there were 510 deaths from lung cancer and 500 were from smoking and 10 from environmental pollution and then there were 5 incident lung cancer cases brought to my attention, it would be reasonable for me to say that the 500 smoking and 10 environmental deaths (a 50:1 ratio) were related pieces of information. It would mean that the overwhelming likelihood is that the 5 deaths were caused by smoking and not environmental pollution. It is true that the prevalence of smoking and environmental pollution would be important factors (since if nobody smoked and everyone was exposed to environmental pollution then it would be easier to surmise that the deaths were caused by pollution, or in the I/P situation, by rockets rather than aerial bombardment) and it would also matter to an extent how much folks smoked or were exposed to pollution (i.e., where and when the bombs/rockets were dropped/launched). But, in the I/P situation, the prevalence of Israeli bombs dropped is as high as that of rockets being launched, it appears and there's no reason to think that the intensity of failed rockets in that seaside area in Gaza City is any greater in absolute terms than the bombs being dropped there by Israel. So, the numbers have a great deal to do with one another in helping assess responsibility for that incident...
posted by faux ami at 8:45 PM on July 17, 2014


Just caught the land invasion news (and the shot down plane in Ukraine, and a little girl being killed by a car and basically it was just a shitshow of horror on the news tonight) with my neighbour. Almost simultaneously we put our faces in our hands and said "Oh, fuck."

There is no way that this is going to end well for anyone. Maybe, as pyramid termite said above, maybe this is the Franz Ferdinand moment for the Middle East. Maybe not.

But either way, more senseless deaths. All because fully grown adults won't sit down at one table and have a fucking discussion. Instead it's bombs and bullets and missiles and dead children (on both sides; I am taking no sides here) and dead civilians and more hate and more fuel for the fire and it's never, ever going to stop.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:53 PM on July 17, 2014


Why I'm on the brink of burning my Israeli passport
On Monday she (Ayelet Shaked of the far-right Jewish Home party in the Knesset) quoted this on her Facebook page:  “Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised
there.”
...

“This is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. The reality is that this is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started it.”
...
And, as the bombs rain on Gaza, Israeli teens have taken to tweeting scantily-clad selfies alongside their political sentiments.  In two now deleted tweets, one wrote “Death to all of you Arabs you transfag”, while another proclaimed “Arabs may you be paralyzed & die with great suffering!”  Another teen simply tweeted “Death to these f****** Arabs”, and attached a photo of themselves pouting alongside it.
Seeing these angelic faces of evil spouting such genocidal rhetoric, I pick up my Israeli passport and a box of matches. “Not in my name, people. Not in my name!”
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:57 PM on July 17, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oh, god. That's just... I don't even have the words.

I'm getting more and more scared as to what the world will look like by Monday morning.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:08 PM on July 17, 2014


Faux ami: When I say that the two figures don't have any bearing on each other, I mean that the HRW figures are "from 2005 to the end of 2012". You can't presume that the sort of airstrikes that take place during times of low-intensity conflict are the same as those that take place during wartime; I understand that during most of that period Israel's responses were largely pro-forma, to the extent that Hamas was surprised when Israel started targetting Hamas operatives rather than just launcher locations.

In the case of the beach deaths, the whole exercise is a bit redundant because we're talking about something that's subject to investigation. The Israeli navy was firing in the area so it's very likely that the deaths actually were caused by Israel. In general, though, you can't say "Israel is responsible for most deaths, therefore it is probably responsible for any particular death, so we can take them one by one and say that Israel is responsible for all deaths." Statistics doesn't work that way.

What we're seeing from Hamas is a long list of casualties, with the explicit or implicit implication that Israel is responsible for them. As I showed above, past reports of friendly-fire deaths imply that many of these deaths must be due to rockets that fall short, launchpad explosions, and unexploded Palestinian ordnance. It is certainly not probable that all of them are due to Israeli attacks, and we know from past experience that Hamas, as a matter of policy, blames some deaths on Israel even when this is not the case.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:37 PM on July 17, 2014


If Mira bar Hillel wants to renounce her Israeli citizenship there's a form she has to fill out. I think everyone would be happier if she did. I don't know why the Independent uses this Property and Planning reporter to comment on Jews (she is "prejudiced against" them), anti-Semitism ("used to gag free speech"), and Israel (which she compares to Nazi Germany), but it reflects poorly on that publication.

Some of her earlier thoughts on these subjects are linked here.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:49 PM on July 17, 2014 [1 favorite]


imply that many of these deaths must be due to rockets that fall short,

Does that even matter when the end-result is dead innocent children? Or is that an attempt to pivot away from the most important point which is that innocent children are being killed.

"One Nation, With Liberty and Justice FOR ALL." When the Israeli Government meets that simple standard, I'll consider supporting them. Until then, they're not worthy.

No-one is shooting rockets at us Jews in New York. It's not a coincidence, but rather evidence of the superiority of the separation of church and state, where "American-Jew" and "American-Palestinian" are Equal Under The Law.
posted by mikelieman at 1:07 AM on July 18, 2014 [5 favorites]


No-one is shooting rockets at us Jews in New York

No, but they are shooting jews in Kansas City, in the land of Liberty and Justice for All. I don't think you've thought this particular argument through as well as you might have liked.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:40 AM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


@petersbeaumont:
Seeing a lot of death this morning too many children #gaza

20 Palestinians killed over night
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:47 AM on July 18, 2014


No, but they are shooting jews in Kansas City, in the land of Liberty and Justice for All.

where the government is doing everything it can to prosecute and convict the suspect responsible
posted by pyramid termite at 5:08 AM on July 18, 2014 [5 favorites]


o, but they are shooting jews in Kansas City,

The guy murdered people who weren't even Jewish, to be clear, and will spend the rest of his life in jail.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 AM on July 18, 2014


"One Nation, With Liberty and Justice FOR ALL." "separation of church and state"
posted by mikelieman


Very noble and worthy ideals, but I am not sure if the goal should be to turn every country in the ME and Africa (Asia?) into replicas of the American-democratic-model. Especially since it isn't even clear if that is what the people in these countries want.
posted by rosswald at 6:17 AM on July 18, 2014


If Mira bar Hillel wants to renounce her Israeli citizenship there's a form she has to fill out. I think everyone would be happier if she did. I don't know why the Independent uses this Property and Planning reporter to comment on Jews (she is "prejudiced against" them), anti-Semitism ("used to gag free speech"), and Israel (which she compares to Nazi Germany), but it reflects poorly on that publication.

Are any Jews or Israeli citizens citizens permitted to disagree with you? Or are they all not true Scotsmen?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:23 AM on July 18, 2014 [5 favorites]


The guy murdered people who weren't even Jewish, to be clear, and will spend the rest of his life in jail.

Yeah, but the incident kind of undermines the notion that the United States is a utopic promised land for the Jewish People, a safe-haven from violent anti-semitism.

Are any Jews or Israeli citizens citizens permitted to disagree with you?

This is a baloney argument - he laid out some pretty distinct criticism of her opinions and associations, not her jewishness or Israeli citizenship. (The author was the one who had brought up renouncing her citizenship.) More, you're saying he's not allowed to disagree with her because that means he doesn't allow her to disagree with him. Or is that a little too roundabout?
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:37 AM on July 18, 2014 [2 favorites]


More, you're saying he's not allowed to disagree with her because that means he doesn't allow her to disagree with him.

He can disagree with her all he likes, but dismissing her as "a Property and Planning reporter" when she is a Jewish Israeli citizen, as if only political scientists can be permitted to express an opinion on their own countries' policies, is just ridiculous.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:14 AM on July 18, 2014


I can't believe I'm saying this but could we maybe stop talking about the actions of a single asshat in Kansas and go back to talking about the dead children?

All this "Yeah but they.." "Okay but then they.." is exactly the problem and is why innocent children are being killed.

If you--that is the general you--think that dead children are acceptable collateral damage, you are a monster, pure and simple. You are who children around the world should be having nightmares about.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:18 AM on July 18, 2014 [2 favorites]


The continued justification for an Jewish state is that the world is awash in antisemitism and that the only way to combat this is to have state privileging Jews and having Jews take control over their own security.

Since these arguments aren't nearly as convincing as they have been in the past, and since many Jews, especially the younger generation, have had their Jewish identity eroded, Its no surprise that the festering pockets of antisemitism in the US and the violent crimes that they commit are quickly pointed to as evidence of the dangerous world that Jews live in.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:25 AM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, but the incident kind of undermines the notion that the United States is a utopic promised land for the Jewish People, a safe-haven from violent anti-semitism

No it doesn't. No one has ever said the US doesn't have crazy people. Dude's going to jail for the rest of his life.
posted by spaltavian at 7:45 AM on July 18, 2014 [3 favorites]


Some coverage from Democracy Now today:

"A Terrifying Night in Gaza": Sharif Abdel Kouddous Reports on Israeli Ground Invasion

Israel Bombs Gaza’s Only Rehab Hospital: Staff Forced to Evacuate Paralyzed Patients After Shelling

Glenn Greenwald: Why Did NBC Pull Veteran Reporter After He Witnessed Israeli Killing of Gaza Kids?

Also:

The aforementioned journalist who was threatened by the Israelis cheering the Gaza bombing has been reassigned. The reassigned journalist count is up to 2.

Elizabeth Warren runs away when asked about the situation in Gaza.

Short interview with Electronic Intifada's Ali Abunimah about the ground invasion.

Nation piece by Sharif Abdel Kouddous about the ground invasion.

Anthony Bourdain, who previously did a show about Gaza: "Maybe it’s the fact that I walked on that beach—and have a small child that makes this photo so devastating. #Gaza"
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:00 AM on July 18, 2014 [4 favorites]






Statistics doesn't work that way.

I literally walked through a statistics example with a somewhat though imperfectly analogous example (of incident cases of an outcome of unknown cause and two known relative risks of that outcome) to discuss how one could with (near) certainty say that the cause of the beach killings was aerial bombardment. The relative risks for conflict death in the I/P situation are similarly disproportionate (much greater risk from aerial bombardment than rocket strike) to lung cancer from smoking versus environmental exposure. In statistics/epidemiology, one uses priors (in this case, the priors are empirical and largely in favor of the treatment with the hugely greater relative risk) in estimating probabilities of outcomes (or in this case the probable cause of an outcome).

And, ignoring the historical ratios of bombing for a moment, in the current conflict aerial bombardment has been frequent and deadly and rocket attacks have been frequent and considerably less deadly--so, the conclusion should be the same regardless of whether 2005-12 or more recent data are used.

As some have said, to an extent, this is a derail from more important considerations--it's pretty clear who is responsible for these deaths and there are more important themes and worries with the current conflict. I've pushed back on this particular point though because it demonstrates the lengths one can go to support a point of view where evidence are not in that given instance supportive of that view. This began with the statement "How do you know it was an Israeli shell, and not a Hamas misfire?" written by the same person who earlier wrote to someone, "you've made a bunch of statements above here that would make any informed reader roll their eyes." I mean no disrespect, as I greatly enjoy conversations here with folks in the community, but I read the first question as a perfect illustration of the second comment.
posted by faux ami at 10:12 AM on July 18, 2014 [8 favorites]


Really good op-ed in the NYT on the diplomatic history leading up to the current conflict: How the West Chose War in Gaza
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:21 AM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]




US Senate passes a bill by unanimous consent supporting Israel and condemning Hamas
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:34 AM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


US Senate: "This aggression will not stand, man."
posted by mikelieman at 11:39 AM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


US Senate passes a bill by unanimous consent supporting Israel and condemning Hamas

What? Why?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:44 AM on July 18, 2014


I think it's because they support Israel and condemn Hamas.
posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on July 18, 2014 [2 favorites]


Because they're nothing if not obedient.
posted by Grangousier at 11:51 AM on July 18, 2014 [2 favorites]


Its quite simple really. They have a lot to loose and nothing to gain by supporting Hamas and condemning Israel. The Israel Lobbies have a lot of power over US foreign policy toward Israel/Palestine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:57 AM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


I just meant that they don't normally do anything. They could have just done that again.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:59 AM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


Not only did they pass it unanimously but there were 78 cosponsors. Christ what assholes.
posted by crayz at 12:00 PM on July 18, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oh. Nah, they pass meaningless resolutions all the time. It's about all they do accomplish these days.
posted by Justinian at 12:00 PM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think it is right for the US to support Israel and condemn Hamas, but they should also condemn the needless massacre of innocent people including children and destruction of homes in Gaza. Contrary to what has been commented on earlier in this thread, this is actually not the most humane military exercise in the history of the universe. Almost no Hamas leaders have been killed, but hundreds of innocent people have been killed and homes destroyed, and probably thousands more injured. If they wanted to go after Hamas militants directly while minimizing civilian casualties the IDF would be using precision air strikes on the tunnels Hamas is hiding in using bunker-buster bombs.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:07 PM on July 18, 2014 [2 favorites]


BBC World News America was just interviewing Israel's ambassador to the US.

He compared the threat Hamas poses to Israel with the Battle of Britain.

Which, I guess there's a comparison to be made. It doesn't reflect well on Israel though.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:28 PM on July 18, 2014 [1 favorite]


Turkey PM slams Egypt's 'illegitimate tyrant' Sisi
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Friday slammed Egypt's President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi as an illegitimate tyrant, saying Cairo could not be relied upon to negotiate a truce with Israel.

"Is Sisi a party (to a ceasefire)? Sisi is a tyrant himself," Erdogan told reporters.

"He is not different from the others," he said, adding that it was Egypt's current rulers who were blocking humanitarian aid channels to the Gaza Strip ruled by the Islamist Hamas movement.

Egypt's Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukri said Erdogan's comments were "unacceptable
posted by rosswald at 8:21 PM on July 18, 2014


Ayman Mohyeldin is going back to Gaza after NBC backed down.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:40 AM on July 19, 2014 [2 favorites]


Very nice find, Noisy Pink Bubbles.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:03 AM on July 19, 2014


Celebrities show their support for Palestine (and sometimes quickly retract it): Selena Gomez, Dwight Howard, Rihanna

Sharif Abdel Kouddous in Foreign Policy: Nowhere to Run: Gaza's residents, under a constant barrage of Israeli bombs, are being told to evacuate to stay safe. If they could escape, they would.

Juan Cole: Gaza meets the New Politics of the Middle East: “Islamic State,” Egypt, Turkey
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:09 AM on July 19, 2014 [1 favorite]


Reddit AMA by an Israeli soldier near Gaza
Who should actually be on guard duty
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:19 AM on July 19, 2014 [4 favorites]


Hillary Clinton on the daily show.
posted by bukvich at 6:46 AM on July 19, 2014




Oooooh! Trying to spiiiin thiiiings! So eeeeevil! So not what everyone else is dooooing!!!
posted by Trochanter at 7:52 PM on July 19, 2014 [1 favorite]


You know, I'm sure everyone is trying to "spin" things. On the other hand, it's worth knowing what Hamas wants people to believe. For instance, this document says
anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank.
So that's interesting. It also says
In your coverage, be sure that you say: 'The locally manufactured shells fired by the resistance are a natural response to the Israeli occupation that deliberately fires rockets against civilians in the West Bank and Gaza'..."
The "locally manufactured" claim is deliberately misleading, of course; the longer-range rockets are imported. As for the claim of the attacks being a "natural response", I suppose it's an arguable point, but when you see that it's actually a talking point issued by Hamas it makes you wonder whether people are coming up with the idea themselves, or simply repeating it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:21 PM on July 19, 2014 [2 favorites]


BBCWatch points out: About those Gaza Health Ministry casualty figures cited by the BBC…
Despite the plethora of BBC reporters currently on the ground in the Gaza Strip, BBC audiences have not been informed that at least four summary executions of ‘collaborators’ by Hamas have apparently taken place since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge and at least thirteen other people have been arrested.
Here's a link to the original story, and here it is via Google Translate.

It's funny, and a bit sad, that Hamas assumes that the IDF is trying to avoid civilian casualties, and therefore reasons that they must be using collaborators to dial in target coordinates. Hamas has a far, far higher opinion of Israel than many people right here.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:18 AM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]


On the other hand, BBC audiences regularly get to see and hear the Australian born and educated, silver-tongued but whiney passive-aggressive Israeli spokesperson and spin doctor Mark Regev!
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:08 AM on July 20, 2014


Isn't our love of spin on both sides why we care more about Israel v Palestine than Siria or Sudan? It's like MWWS but with twice the entertainment value.

Just being gay makes you a collaborator in Hamas eye's, Joe, no need for assumptions about Israeli intelligence.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:38 AM on July 20, 2014


This Land Is Mine by Nina Paley
posted by jeffburdges at 4:47 AM on July 20, 2014 [7 favorites]


Sitting on a beach near Tel Aviv, sipping a Stella and watching John Kerry talk about Israel "under siege". It's so absurd. I have zero respect for Obama and his administration.
posted by cell divide at 9:15 AM on July 20, 2014 [2 favorites]


Hamas has a far, far higher opinion of Israel than many people right here.

That's a shitty thing to say. I have a very high opinion of Israel. I also believe that shelling civilian areas and targeting homes, hospitals, and people running on the beach is not minimizing civilian casualties. Based on the high number of civilians casualties so far, it doesn't seem loss of civilian life has been minimized by the IDF.

Netanyahu: Hamas wants ‘telegenically dead Palestinians’ - Prime minister says Hamas seeks as many casualties as possible to be displayed by the world media

Both in Tel Aviv & Haifa racists set up "leftist checkpoints" and beat/threatened those found guilty of being a leftist.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:18 AM on July 20, 2014


No better way to avoid civilian casualties than using flechette shells in villages.

Israel using flechette shells in Gaza

Of 50 bodies recovered from Shujaiya after the Israeli assault 17 are children and 14 are women.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:31 AM on July 20, 2014


Letter from Gaza by a Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert
Mr. Obama - do you have a heart?

I invite you - spend one night - just one night - with us in Shifa. Disguised as a cleaner, maybe.

I am convinced, 100%, it would change history.

Nobody with a heart AND power could ever walk away from a night in Shifa without being determined to end the slaughter of the Palestinian people.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:02 PM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]


As soon as I saw the words "Norwegian doctor" I thought to myself "Mads Gilbert?" Yep, Mads Gilbert. He has form for this dating back years; he is literally an advocate for terrorism; and he is a bald-faced liar. In the last Gaza war he claimed that 90% of the casualties were civilians; it later turned out out that Hamas itself identified around half of them as its fighters.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:46 PM on July 20, 2014 [2 favorites]


Isn't our love of spin on both sides why we care more about Israel v Palestine than Siria or Sudan?

Interested parties in those conflicts are spinning events, too. Same with every other conflict. Israel/Palestine is not unique in that regard.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:32 PM on July 20, 2014


I suppose a lot of people are happy now that Hamas is attacking uniformed IDF soldiers. Maybe they read the discussion upthread and understood the importance of the Geneva Convention.
posted by klue at 2:45 PM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]




Al Jazeera: gaza blog live
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:03 PM on July 20, 2014


Hamas has always been perfectly happy to attack IDF soldiers, klue, they're just equally happy to attack civilians. It's also safer and easier.
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on July 20, 2014


Hamas has always been perfectly happy to attack IDF soldiers, klue, they're just equally happy to attack civilians. It's also safer and easier.

IDF has always been perfectly happy to attack Hamas soldiers, klue, they're just equally happy to attack civilians. It's also safer and easier.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:23 PM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]


That may or may not be true but klue wasn't talking about the IDF so I'm not sure it's responsive.
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on July 20, 2014


Mads Gilbert is getting much more shit than he deserves, and there's a huge smear campaign going on. 'literary [being] an advocate for terrorism' doesn't really mean much, as 'terrorism' could be constructed to mean just about anything, say 'state terrorism' enacted through the foreign adventures of the US or the domestic policies of China, or whatever.

He's a doctor specializing in emergency medicine and treatment of victims of lands mines. I guess his real sin is being an opinionated leftist.
posted by klue at 3:34 PM on July 20, 2014 [5 favorites]


The Pro Israel side outside of Israel (and the commenters here) seem completely unable to admit what is really happening. I can tell you that here in Israel, the people understand that this mission isn't to destroy Hamas, it's to kill civilians in order to punish Hamas and hopefully turn people against them. There are many calling for more wholesale slaughter, no one believes for a second that this will hurt Hamas in any major way. they'll regroup again at a later date. In fact Haaretz published a story last week saying the goal specifically isn't to kill Hamas top leadership, because they fear chaos. The goal is an eye for an eye, even if this case the eye was more the appearance of an eye because the Hamas rockets don't do much damage.

So my question to those defending this use of collective punishment and state terror, can you just admit that you support those tactics rather than hiding behind the idea of taking out terrorist "infrastructure" and leaders? No one in Israel believes that.
posted by cell divide at 3:35 PM on July 20, 2014 [14 favorites]


If the goal was simply to kill Gazans, then why would Israel launch a ground-offensive? The only reason to expose their troops like that would be to target key infrastructure or leadership.

Your whole line of reasoning is nonsense.
posted by rosswald at 3:50 PM on July 20, 2014 [4 favorites]


I'd love seeing a solid comparison between Israeli operations in Palestine vs U.S. operations in Iraq.

Do you imagine Israel or the U.S. do a better job avoiding civilian casualties? Israel or the U.S.? IBC says the U.S. killed 1000-3000 Iraqi's per month for like 5 years, but of course some total estimates says a million dead or so. Ya know, an AC-130 might look more targeted than flechette shells, but that's not entirely true when your fire control computer kills every heat signature leaving a building before leveling said building.

Which commits more torture? At least Israel's courts take it seriously. Anecdotally Israel does a much better job preventing their soldiers from committing rape.

Also, do you imagine an Israeli or American officer or political leader is more likely to face a war crimes trial?

We should not defend unending military occupations, not even when the occupied population contains an influential group who wants to kill the occupying nations entire population. We should however acknowledge that the American government has likely committed far worse war crimes recently and will definitely do more to prevent the perpetrators coming to justice.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:12 PM on July 20, 2014 [4 favorites]


My guess is that people don't think the US government (or many other governments) are any better than Israel's in this respect, they just feel like maybe something can be done about Israel's government while the US government is way too powerful to do anything about. But I could be wrong.
posted by Justinian at 4:21 PM on July 20, 2014


Klue wrote: 'literary [being] an advocate for terrorism' doesn't really mean much, as 'terrorism' could be constructed to mean just about anything, say 'state terrorism' enacted through the foreign adventures of the US or the domestic policies of China, or whatever.

I supplied a link. If you follow it, you'll find a further link to an interview dated 30th September, 2001 [Google Translate], where he is asked "Do you support a terrorist attack on the United States?". His response is "Terror is a bad weapon, but the answer is yes, within the context I have mentioned".

So when I said "literally", I literally meant "literally". Gilbert is an advocate for Hamas, not for peace; he endorses the death of civilians and the only reason he's denouncing the death of these civilians is that he thinks it's tactically appropriate. If it had been Hamas who had killed them he would have been all in favor of it, just as he was in favor of the murder of US and Israeli civilians on earlier occasions.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:42 PM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]


Looting in Paris as Europeans protest against Gaza conflict

Excerpt:
"We're not anti-Semites, we're here for the people. We call on Europeans and Americans to finally do something," organisers of the 11,000-strong march in Vienna said.

But in the Paris suburb of Sarcelles -- sometimes nicknamed "little Jerusalem" for its large community of Sephardic Jews -- a banned but orderly demonstration of several hundred descended into chaos when dozens of youth -- some of them masked -- set fire to bins and lit firecrackers and smoke bombs.

Looters then began raiding shops, wrecking a funeral home and destroying its front window as several protesters shouted: "Fuck Israel!".
This follows an earlier demonstration that attacked Jews and blockaded them inside a synagogue, two earlier firebombings of synagogues, and numerous assaults on Jews. This is literally what things were like for Jews in Europe before WW2. And by "literally", I once again mean "literally": attacks on Jews qua Jews that are excused as being due to justified resentment that has - wrongly! become identified with Jews. Every sort of official sympathy is extended; no action is taken; and the forces of anti-Semitism grow stronger.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:27 PM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]


The only reason to expose their troops like that would be to target key infrastructure or leadership.

The reasons are complex and have as much to do with internal politics as they do with strategy. If you're well read on the subject, you'll know that the IDF recommended against any ground invasion, but two things changed-- internal politics of Netanyahu being outflanked and portrayed as weak, and the fact that rockets were still being launched in larger numbers than expected after 10 days of bombardment from land, sea, and air. The goal is to punish Gaza; Israel has always used collective punishment against the Palestinians. It specifically isn't to take out the senior Hamas leadership, who are living underground in a large bunker or system of bunkers. The thinking is that once Gaza is battered enough, Hamas will be forced to negotiate a new ceasefire like they did the last time this happened just a couple of years ago, hopefully with the Gaza population even more against Hamas. Just like last time, Israel knows lots of people will whine and complain on the internet and in some parts of the media about all the dead babies, but nothing will actually happen.
posted by cell divide at 5:47 PM on July 20, 2014 [5 favorites]


Gilbert is an advocate for Hamas, not for peace; he endorses the death of civilians and the only reason he's denouncing the death of these civilians is that he thinks it's tactically appropriate. If it had been Hamas who had killed them he would have been all in favor of it, just as he was in favor of the murder of US and Israeli civilians on earlier occasions.
- The attack on New York was not surprising, after the policy has led the West in recent decades. I am outraged by the terrorist attack, but I'm just as upset about the suffering that the U.S. has created. It is in this context 5000 dead people must be seen. If the U.S. government has a legitimate right to bomb and kill civilians in Iraq, the suppressed also has a moral right to attack the U.S. with the weapons they manage to create. Dead civilians are the same whether there are Americans, Palestinians or Iraqis, says physician and professor Mads Gilbert.

- Do you support a terrorist attack on the United States?

- Terror is a bad weapon, but the answer is yes, within the context I have mentioned, says Gilbert.

He does not endorse the death of civilians. On the contrary, he is outraged by the killing of civilians on both 'sides'. It's right there in the quote. It seems a bit silly, as I'm not quite sure what side bin Laden et al are supposed to represent, but this is not a general endorsement of murdering civilians. It is, however, controversially stating that the ones he perceives to be victims of a 25 year long attack have a right to fight back. So he's saying a) all killing of civilians is outrageous, but b) if the stronger part has the legitimate right to kill civilians, that right should also be extended to the weaker part.

Does that make him an 'advocate for terrorism'? Yes. But only 'within the context' where a proponent of the US invasion of Iraq, or, to link it with the topic of this thread, a supporter of IDF's bombardment of Gaza, is also an advocate for terrorism. Which was the point of my comment to begin with. For both sides, the supporters of the other side are advocates of terrorism, and that renders the accusation meaningless.

While he makes controversial statements to shitty tabloids like Dagbladet, he is actually on the ground doing medical work, which is more than what most people are doing.
posted by klue at 6:53 PM on July 20, 2014 [3 favorites]


they just feel like maybe something can be done about Israel's government while the US government is way too powerful to do anything about.

Do yoy not remember the Iraq war protests? You may have heard of the Vietnam protests which probably did have an impact on ending that war. Where are the protests in Israel? There are some and that is admirable considering the rockets and the fascist crack-down, but they are smaller than I would hope for. When they do exist, protestors are quickly beaten down by fascists, which goes largely unreported, and seems to be mostly not cared about.

Right-wingers beat Haifa deputy mayor during anti-war protest

Racists assaulted 3 Palestinian-Israelis who were headed to the anti-war protest w/ bats last night in Haifa.Police called them an ambulance. Right-wingers barged into the ambulance and screamed: "Jews or Arabs?" The paramedic shut the door, preventing another attack.

Gilbert's comments on 9/11 and other terrorist acts are atrocious. It is clear he adores the people in Gaza and was speaking out of anger at the injustice of seeing them killed. Note that his logic that Muslims have a right to strike back at civilians in retribution for the injustice they have endured and to enforce consequences on the US for killing innocent people are quite similar to many of the arguments we hear justifying the extensive killing of civilians in Gaza: they should know it's comming when they fire rockets at Israel; there must be consequences for the rocket fire; etc.

What is Bibi's goal with these attacks I wonder? I don't think he actually has one. This seemed like a good analysis to me from twitter:
Bibi and Bogie Yaalon keep talking about tunnels because the original goal of the operation - stopping rocket fire - cannot be achieved

Only way to stop rocket fire by military means is to reoccupy Gaza and maintain large contingents of soldiers there forever.

Not even Bennet wants to reoccupy Gaza because he wants to annex the West Bank & maintain a Jewish majority under Israeli control.

Between the sea and the river, Jews are now almost 50% but slightly less.

You take out Gaza's millions and there's a clearer Jewish majority
Not that the actual intent is ethnic cleansing, but Gaza is not seen as a part of future Israel even in most one-state solutions (which seem most realistic to me). Honestly, I think the bravest solution would be a one-state solution encompassing Gaza and all of the occupied territories with a goal of progressively moving from apartheid to full equality under the law and more equal opportunity. I think there are some on the far right in Israel (Moshe Aron possibly) who talk about the possibility. If this were recognized as the ultimate goal up front by the leadership in Israel, I think Palestinians would see better treatment.
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:02 PM on July 20, 2014 [2 favorites]


What is Bibi's goal with these attacks I wonder? I don't think he actually has one.

There's definitely a tactical goal, if not a strategic one: weaken Hamas' ability to wage war on Israel. Hamas is using up years' worth of munitions, firing them all at once rather than a few each week. That's a bit easier to deal with. Israel is also taking the opportunity of destroying those terror tunnels that took years to build. They were a huge threat to isolated Israeli communities, and were what forced Israel to create a buffer zone within Gaza. Israel may now be in a position to retreat from that zone as a "show of good faith".

As for Israel's strategic goal, to the extent there is one, I think Israel knows it will never have a partner for peace in Gaza as long as Hamas is in power. Weakening Hamas militarily will help, as will splitting Hamas from its supporters. I think the reason Netanyahu has agreed so readily to cease fires is that he believes Hamas will break them. So far, he's been correct, and that has probably shown people that Hamas is just impossible to deal with. Even the Arab league has been surprisingly quiet about this attack.

Finally and at the very least, there's the Politician's Syllogism:
  • Something must be done.
  • This is something.
  • Therefore, it must be done.
You can't argue with that.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:08 PM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]


Weakening Hamas militarily will help, as will splitting Hamas from its supporters.

By destroying homes and killing civilians? I'm surprised that is thought to be a good way to separate people in Gaza from Hamas.

Moshe Aron Arens possibly

Actually it must have been Reuven Rivlin, the new President of Israel, I was thinking of regarding a one-state solution.

Reuven Rivlin: The land is not divisible
“As a rule, whenever I hear about a demographic threat, it comes first of all from a type of thinking that says the Arabs are a threat. And this leads to thinking of transfer, or that they should be killed. I am appalled by this kind of talk. I go into schools, and when they hold mock elections, Lieberman gets 40 percent of the vote and I hear kids saying that Arabs should be killed. It seems to me that many of the belligerent Jewish movements that were built upon hatred of Arabs − and I’m not only talking about Lieberman, but within the Likud as well − grew out of the patronizing-socialist attitude that said ‘They’ll be there and we’ll be here.’ "
...
“My friends on the left, like Beilin and Jumas [Haim Oron] are true Zionists and Israeli patriots, but this talk about separation, this attitude of patronage, is what gives rise to the hatred that is keeping us from reaching a solution.”
 
Otherwise occupied / Reaping what 
we have sown in Gaza - those who turned Gaza into an internment camp for 1.8 million people should not be surprised when they tunnel underneath the earth.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:40 PM on July 20, 2014 [1 favorite]


By destroying homes and killing civilians? I'm surprised that is thought to be a good way to separate people in Gaza from Hamas.

You can be angry with more than one person at the same time. Hamas has secret police and public executions pour encourager les autres. If Hamas were popular they'd allow people to vote. Unfortunately, we're in the ninth year of a four-year Palestinian Parliament and there's no obvious prospect of any future elections. I'm not suggesting that these tactics will make people love Israel, but there's a chance that one of Hamas' rivals will seize command.

Reaping what 
we have sown in Gaza - those who turned Gaza into an internment camp for 1.8 million people should not be surprised when they tunnel underneath the earth.

Amira Hass' analyses have never impressed me very much. Her solution, "Open up the Gaza Strip, let the people return to the world, the West Bank, and to their families and families in Israel" fails to acknowledge that the governments of the West Bank and Gaza are very nearly at war themselves; one of the reasons Hamas rejected the first ceasefire was that its terms included the idea that the Palestine Authority would be in charge of the crossings from Gaza. So fine, great, let Gazans travel - but who gets to issue passports and staff the border crossings? Because if it isn't the PA then you've just screwed the government recognised by the UN; the only Palestinian group that is willing to talk about a peace deal; and the ones who may possibly be persuaded to discourage the kidnapping and murder of Israelis.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:38 PM on July 20, 2014


As I understand it, there are major protest against the occupation by Israelis pretty regularly, Golden Eternity, including during the current crisis. And the article you linked makes it clear enough anti-war protestors showed up that some police were injured by them, as well as the pro-war protestors.

I'd never heard about violence against protestors by right-wing thugs until recent, no clue if that impacts turnout much. Israel's government has taken measures to ban large protests recently, which might impacts turnout more.

America has 40 times the population of Israel, so a these 1000, 500, etc. person protest stack up well against most Iraq war protests. And Israelis likely protest more frequently.

Also, Iraq was an extreme case because many people realized Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And the Vietnam protests were against the draft more than against killing foreigners.

Afghanistan War protests are actually the best analogy : American protests against the Afghanistan War were mostly only a couple thousand, not sure any exceeded 15k, so proportionally the Israelis already beat us by miles.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:01 AM on July 21, 2014




think the bravest solution would be a one-state solution encompassing Gaza and all of the occupied territories with a goal of progressively moving from apartheid to full equality under the law and more equal opportunity.

"One Nation, With Liberty And Justice For All" has worked for me my whole life.
posted by mikelieman at 2:07 AM on July 21, 2014 [1 favorite]


A race- and religion-neutral solution would be nice, but most Israeli Jews are either refugees from Arab countries, or their descendants. The elimination of Middle Eastern Jewry was on an unimaginable scale: communities that were literally thousands of years old were eliminated practically overnight; cities that had hundreds of thousands of Jews now have less than a dozen. Many (most?) Palestinian groups explicitly say that they seek Israel's elimination. If that happened, where would Israel's Jews go? Into the sea, as Hamas boasts?

Israel accounts for less than a third of one percent of the Middle East's area. It is literally the only place in the Middle East where Jews can live in reasonable security; in fact it is practically the only place they can live at all. I think it would be reasonable to ask some other countries in the Middle East to change the way they treat Jews before you demand that Israel risk becoming like one of its neighbours; a place that used to have a Jewish community.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:24 AM on July 21, 2014 [2 favorites]


If only Palestinians could live with the same 'reasonable security', and I don't see any logical reason why one group's 'security' should come at the expense of any others'. Seriously, is there any doubt that with a good-faith reformation, that the Israeli Government couldn't 'promote the general welfare and ensure domestic tranquillity', along the successful US model where there are inalienable rights, due process of law, and equal protection of the law?

In bugzilla issue resolution, "WORKSFORME"
posted by mikelieman at 3:43 AM on July 21, 2014 [4 favorites]


I suppose non-Israeli Palestinians can live with security in their own state, and join in the fight to make the Middle East a place that allows multicultural democracies. There are lots of minorities that would like this: Druse, Kurds, Alawites, Yezidi and so forth. Christians too, nowadays.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:17 AM on July 21, 2014 [1 favorite]


Dr Mads Gilbert has issued a press release:
RENOUNCED NORWEGIAN DOCTOR ACCUSES ISRAELI ARMY OF USING INTERNATIONALLY BANNED WEAPONS
Renounced Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert on Sunday accused the Israeli army of using internationally banned weapons in its ongoing offensive against the Gaza Strip.

Gilbert told a press conference in Shifa Hospital in Gaza City that examinations of the bodies of the Palestinian victims showed that they had been subjected to internationally banned weapons.

He added that these weapons cause major damage to the bodies, especially the limbs.

Gilbert did not, however, elaborate on the banned weapons allegedly used by Israel.

Israeli authorities were not immediately available to comment on the accusation.

"Israel's use of internationally banned weapons is a blatant violation of human rights and international agreements," said Youssef Abo al-Rish, Palestinian Health Ministry Undersecretary.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:26 AM on July 21, 2014


CNN reports the death toll is now over 500 Palestinians and 20 Israelis (including 18 soldiers). Two of the soldiers killed yesterday were Americans.

Al-Monitor: Interview with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal

YNet Military analysis: Hamas, not Israel, is running the conflict

Electronic Intifada: Israel’s Iron Dome doesn’t cover Bedouins

Glenn Greenwald: Netanyahu’s “telegenically dead” comment is grotesque but not original
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:03 AM on July 21, 2014 [2 favorites]


Forward: Tel Aviv Is Under Red Alert — In Many Ways: "In 15 years of political activism, and about eight as a journalist, I cannot remember a time when people around me were so afraid to speak their minds. Not Jews, anyway, and definitely not in Tel Aviv."
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:15 AM on July 21, 2014 [2 favorites]


Report: Alleged Israeli strike on Sudanese weapons arsenal

---

How Hamas uses its tunnels to kill and capture Israeli soldiers
Not only was the burrow remarkable in depth, width and length – 1.5 miles long and 66 feet underground – it was equipped with electricity and contained enough cookies, yogurt and other provisions to last its occupants several months. Israeli forces estimated Hamas had dumped $10 million and 800 tons of concrete into the two-year project.

Such “terror tunnels,” the Israeli military said in a statement on Friday, are “complex and advanced.” And their use, Israel said, is “to carry out attacks such as abductions of Israeli civilians and soldiers alike; infiltrations into Israeli communities, mass murders and hostage-taking scenarios.”

Describing the emerging “tunnel war,” a Palestinian militia document obtained by Al-Monitor said the objective of the underground network was “to surprise the enemy and strike it a deadly blow that doesn’t allow a chance for survival or escape or allow him a chance to confront and defend itself.”
posted by rosswald at 6:20 AM on July 21, 2014 [2 favorites]




Many (most?) Palestinian groups explicitly say that they seek Israel's elimination. If that happened, where would Israel's Jews go? Into the sea, as Hamas boasts?

This is nothing more than hate speech. Israel is state fundamentally based on a racial hiearchy, when people, including Palestinians, say that they want the state to end, they do not mean that they want all the Jewish Israelis to leave, anymore than the end of apartheid meant the removal of all white people from South Africa. Do left wing Jewish Israelis want all the Jews in the Middle East to leave when they support a one-state solution? absolutely not.

Also if you have some evidence to the claim that Hamas wants Israel into the sea, I would love, absolutely love to see it.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:43 AM on July 21, 2014 [4 favorites]


Do left wing Jewish Israelis want all the Jews in the Middle East to leave when they support a one-state solution?

Jews in the ME pretty much are Israel since they were forced out of the rest of the Arab World.
posted by rosswald at 7:04 AM on July 21, 2014 [1 favorite]


Apparently Jacobin had a number of pieces on Palestine a year ago:

Palestine and the Left

Against the Law: By organizing based on international law, the struggle for Palestinian liberation has been transformed into a question of rights.

The Oslo Illusion: The Oslo Accords weren’t a failure for Israel — they served as a fig leaf to consolidate and deepen its control over Palestinian life.

A Dishonest Umpire: Two-state proponents argue that comprehensive peace is only possible with deeper US involvement in the process. They couldn’t be more wrong.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:59 AM on July 21, 2014 [1 favorite]


The New Republic article about how the recent peace deal died (from this deleted thread) is a really impressive piece, and the story is not what you would expect. It was much closer to a deal then what I would have expected. Netanyau secretly agreed that “[t]he new secure and recognized border between Israel and Palestine will be negotiated based on the 1967 lines with mutual agreed swaps.”

Kerry really seems like he just couldn't make this work due to failure of his own abilities and mistrust among the parties. On the misunderstandings between him and Netanyahu at the start: “Both of them like to talk for long periods of time,” said someone who has dealt with both leaders. “And I’m not sure that when one of them is lecturing the other at length, the other guy is really listening very carefully.”

The description of when it fell apart:
The next day at the White House, Obama tried his luck with the Palestinian leader. He reviewed the latest American proposals, some of which had been tilted in Abbas’s direction. (The document would now state categorically that there would be a Palestinian capital in Jerusalem.) “Don’t quibble with this detail or that detail,” Obama said. “The occupation will end. You will get a Palestinian state. You will never have an administration as committed to that as this one.” Abbas and Erekat were not impressed.

After the meeting, the Palestinian negotiator saw Susan Rice—Abbas’s favorite member of the Obama administration—in the hall. “Susan,” he said, “I see we’ve yet to succeed in making it clear to you that we Palestinians aren’t stupid.” Rice couldn’t believe it. “You Palestinians,” she told him, “can never see the fucking big picture.”
posted by blahblahblah at 10:40 AM on July 21, 2014 [4 favorites]


This is nothing more than hate speech. Israel is state fundamentally based on a racial hiearchy, when people, including Palestinians, say that they want the state to end, they do not mean that they want all the Jewish Israelis to leave, anymore than the end of apartheid meant the removal of all white people from South Africa. Do left wing Jewish Israelis want all the Jews in the Middle East to leave when they support a one-state solution? absolutely not.

Wasn't the Arab League's original opposition to the foundation of Israel based on the belief that Jews should leave Palestine?

(Also, though I know I shouldn't take what I read on the internet to be wholly representative, but the amount of anti-semitism among Muslims is staggering. So many seem to regard every Jew as a Zionist, and regularly promise their future destruction.)
posted by Thing at 11:08 AM on July 21, 2014 [1 favorite]


Many (most?) Palestinian groups explicitly say that they seek Israel's elimination. If that happened, where would Israel's Jews go? Into the sea, as Hamas boasts?

This is nothing more than hate speech. Israel is state fundamentally based on a racial hiearchy, when people, including Palestinians, say that they want the state to end, they do not mean that they want all the Jewish Israelis to leave,


I don't think it matters too much what people say. Like I've said above, only Israel can make peace and hence the failure of a viable solution so far is mostly the fault of the Israeli government, but I think it's naive to claim the elimination of the Israeli state wouldn't be a disaster for Israeli Jews. The apartheid analogy is pretty bad all the way around, and I don't think it's useful, but it's especially bad when talking about what a one-state solution would look like: South Africa didn't have the same sort of religious conflict and land reform isn't the same thing as bona fide population displacement.

I suspect we agree that futher settlement in the West Bank is essentially stealing land, but how exactly do you think that land would be taken back after an end to the Israeli state?

The one state solution you are ascribing to left wing Israeli Jews is not at all the same thing, though a few decades of current demographic trends means such a state wouldn't be Israel for long, either. Perhaps a period of justice would keep reprisals down, but I think it's a mistake to underestimate Palestinian anger, however justified one may think it is.
posted by spaltavian at 11:40 AM on July 21, 2014


Noisy Pink Bubbles: “Kerry Expresses Exasperation With Civilian Toll in Gaza”
“No One Really Believes John Kerry’s Hot Mic Moment Was Unintentional,” Evan McMurry, Mediaite, 21 July 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 11:49 AM on July 21, 2014


Sorry for the long quote, but I found this passage from the New Republic article well worth reading (the whole thing is, but this part struck me):

The prime minister opened the meeting by playing Kerry a video on one of his favorite topics: Palestinian incitement. It showed Palestinian children in Gaza being taught to glorify martyrdom and seek Israel’s destruction. “This is the true obstacle to peace,” Netanyahu told Kerry.

“It’s a major issue,” Kerry replied. “And nothing justifies incitement. I hate it. I’ve read Abbas the riot act about it. You know I have. But it is worthwhile to try to understand what life looks like from the Palestinian point of view.”

“This has nothing to do with the occupation and the settlements,” Netanyahu said.

Kerry pressed on: “When I fought in Vietnam, I used to look at the faces of the local population and the looks they gave us. I’ll never forget it. It gave me clarity that we saw the situation in completely different ways.”

“This isn’t Vietnam!” Netanyahu shouted. “No one understands Israel but Israel.”

Kerry tried explaining himself again: “No one is saying it’s Vietnam. But I’ve been coming here for thirty years, and I’m telling you, what’s building up in the Palestinians has only gotten worse. I’ve seen it. It doesn’t matter if it’s right or wrong; it just is. It can’t be solved if you can’t see it how they see it.”


Interesting to read about all the different personalities behind the negotiations; depressing to know how close we were to an agreement, closer than we'll likely be for a long time.
posted by sonmi at 12:00 PM on July 21, 2014 [7 favorites]


548 palestinians dead as of monday morning, including shelling a hospital.
posted by lalochezia at 12:01 PM on July 21, 2014


No One Really Believes John Kerry’s Hot Mic Moment Was Unintentional

This is really interesting, especially thinking about that supposed Biden gaffe about gay marriage which people also widely believe to have been a deliberate PR move.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:06 PM on July 21, 2014


Wasn't the Arab League's original opposition to the foundation of Israel based on the belief that Jews should leave Palestine?

That was, what, over 65 years ago?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:07 PM on July 21, 2014


That New Republic article is a must-read, and I'm sorry it couldn't keep its own thread (though looking at how this one has gone in the last week, I'm not at all surprised). Netanyahu was ready to make some staggering concessions, at least as starting points for discussion. It gives me a lot more hope for the future than I've had in recent memory, despite what's actually happening now.
posted by Mchelly at 12:17 PM on July 21, 2014 [1 favorite]


What is happening now certainly isn't helping.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:27 PM on July 21, 2014




Some new truce chatter, about a long-term humanitarian cease fire.
posted by blahblahblah at 1:22 PM on July 21, 2014


I expect Hamas will declare a humanitarian ceasefire as soon as they feel like Israel is about to deal Hamas very serious damage (if that happens). Whether or not Israel will accept that ceasefire is an interesting question. Not accepting it would look really, really bad.
posted by Justinian at 2:31 PM on July 21, 2014


12% of people in the latest CNN poll think Israel is not using enough force in Gaza. I love these people. They probably can't find Israel on a map (much less Gaza). They probably couldn't tell you what a Palestinian is. But goddamit they know Israel should be pounding the crap out of these people with everything they've got.
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on July 21, 2014 [6 favorites]




Massacre in Shejaiya:
Two small bodies lie on the metal table inside the morgue at Gaza’s Shifa hospital. Omama is 9 years old. Her right forearm is mangled and charred and the top half of her skull has been smashed in. Beside her lies her 7-year-old brother. His name is not certain. It might be Hamza or it might be Khalil. Relatives are having trouble identifying him because his head has been shorn off. Their parents will not mourn them—because they are dead too.
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:
While I was on route to Doha, dozens more civilians have been killed in the Israeli military strikes in Gaza ... I condemn the atrocious action
posted by crayz at 4:27 PM on July 21, 2014 [2 favorites]


MisantropicPainforest wrote: This is nothing more than hate speech. Israel is state fundamentally based on a racial hiearchy, when people, including Palestinians, say that they want the state to end, they do not mean that they want all the Jewish Israelis to leave [...]

This is like one of those Feminism 101 threads where someone is confronted with evidence of sexual discrimination, but they demand ever more exacting proof that each instance is due to misogyny and not bad luck, or circumstance, or the abrasive nature of the complainant. In this case you have the entire Middle East emptied of Jews, and the foundational documents of the major Palestinian groups explicitly denying a place for Jews except under restricted and artificial circumstances. It would be a waste of time proceeding until you've absorbed the fundamental facts of the situation, and I don't think you have.

A flawed but popular treatment of the history of the Jews in the modern Middle East is Martin Gilbert's In Ishmael's House. There are a lot of one-volume histories of Israel; you might try Gilbert's Israel: A History or Anita Shapira's Israel: A History (they are not the same book!). These would give you at least some background to the situation, rather than relying on cherry-picked quotes.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:44 PM on July 21, 2014 [3 favorites]


Wave of anti-Semitic rallies hits cities across Germany
[...] On Friday, the Iranian-sponsored Al Quds Day March is likely to be the most extreme of the demonstrations. Even hardened anti-Israel activists like Svenja, 20, from Workers’ Power, a self-described Trotskyist organization, are hesitant about attending the Al Quds Day March. Al Quds is the Arabic term for Jersualem.

“We oppose the Israeli state, and anti-Zionism is important to us, but we have not decided yet if we will attend the Al Quds Day March because of certain extreme elements,” said Svenja. [...]
Windows smashed at Belfast synagogue on Somerton Road

Followup on the recent anti-Semitic incidents in France:
French minister decries ‘anti-Semitic’ Gaza protests
and
French prime minister: Behind hatred of Israel lies hatred of Jews
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:36 PM on July 21, 2014 [1 favorite]






Good links.

Fallows is absolutely right. If you think your only choice is to kill a bunch of kids you've got to change your entire paradigm.
posted by Justinian at 8:29 PM on July 21, 2014 [2 favorites]


.
posted by jb at 8:46 PM on July 21, 2014


Your whole line of reasoning is nonsense.

So... the word of a person actually living on the ground in Israel is somehow less than... your overseas opinion?

Please.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:24 PM on July 21, 2014


Not exactly a reassigned journalist, but Rula Jebreal claims that her future TV appearances were cancelled after standing up for Palestinians on MSNBC.

Here's a piece she wrote a couple of days ago:

Bombing and Invading Gaza Is Israel’s Peace Plan: Signing a peace agreement with moderates like Abbas has never been Netanyahu’s goal—instead, by bombarding Gaza, the Israeli prime minister can dismiss all Palestinian claims.
posted by homunculus at 9:34 PM on July 21, 2014


If UNRWA handed rockets over to Hamas, is that a war crime? Did it have a choice?

Background:
Last week UNRWA (the UN body charged with supporting "Palestine Refugees", which runs many schools and welfare centers) found twenty missiles in one of its schools in Gaza. Chris Gunness, its director, described this as "a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law". So what happened to the missiles? UNRWA denied giving them to Hamas, instead claiming that it gave them to the so-called unity government, which (it says) Hamas has left.

The Palestinian National Authority Ministry of the Interior in Gaza, which may or may not be part of that unity government, condemned UNRWA for issuing the statement and says that it was "nothing but a fabrication to justify the targeting of civilians and to find a cover in advance for the crimes that are being committed by the Israeli occupation in the Gaza Strip." It also says, somewhat disingenuously, "All UNRWA schools are guarded by UNRWA security guards round the clock. Thus, we wonder how persons could have entered into the school and stored such weapons without being detected?"
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:46 PM on July 21, 2014


The surprising duo behind the Hamas missile map
A Belgian-Israeli Jew and a Dutch Muslim developed Israel Under Attack, a new computer tool for mapping rocket trajectories from Gaza.
Their website, which looks really cool, currently says that there have been no missiles from Gaza for over six hours. I wish there was a way to go back and replay earlier events, but I can't see any way to do it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:05 PM on July 21, 2014


Israeli military shells the Al Jazeera media centre on 11th floor of a building in central Gaza. No one injured, damage not known. Office evacuated. Presumably, that was one of the aims of the shelling, being on the 11th floor, the office has a very good view of the city as a whole.
posted by Mister Bijou at 12:20 AM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]




Deputy Editor AJ David Poort says IDF confirms it has fired "warning shots" at AJ's office.
posted by BinGregory at 12:27 AM on July 22, 2014


So... the word of a person actually living on the ground in Israel is somehow less than... your overseas opinion?

Please.


I, too, live in Israel. I would thoroughly disagree with the assertion that "the people understand that this mission isn't to destroy Hamas, it's to kill civilians in order to punish Hamas" -- even if that is truly the IDF's goal, I would strenuously disagree that regular Israelis look at it that way or would want that at all.

I work long hours at a hospital in Ashkelon, about 7 miles north of Gaza. We are in the zone that has about 30 seconds until rockets impact, and the rockets fall pretty much constantly. To be honest, I am not even completely sure how to express what it's like to work in Ashkelon these days. I don't describe my life as "under siege" and I sure as hell would rather be in even a heavily-targeted part of Israel than Gaza, but it's not all beers on the beach for some of us.
posted by lullaby at 1:49 AM on July 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Their website, which looks really cool, currently says that there have been no missiles from Gaza for over six hours.

MeFi shows you wrote that comment at 9:05am IDT and a cursory glance at my rocket alert app (which will never not sound ridiculous, but "RED - התרועה צבע אדום" is the one I use) suggests that's not true, since there were sirens around 6am in Be'er Sheva, and then a few minutes later in Otef Aza/"Gaza envelope" near the border. This is a glib and not-detailed clock of how long Israel has been rocket free that's been making the rounds on Facebook recently.
posted by lullaby at 2:01 AM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yes, now I notice that the far left of the screen actually says that there have been no rockets for 16273 days ... plus about nine hours. So it may not be entirely accurate.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:13 AM on July 22, 2014


I have to admit that I read cell divide's initial comment in which he said "I can tell you that here in Israel, the people understand that this mission isn't to destroy Hamas, it's to kill civilians in order to punish Hamas and hopefully turn people against them." as hyperbole in the same tradition as the (not actually true) anecdote of Pauline Kael expressing shock that Reagan could have won the election in a landslide since no-one she knew voted for him. I have no doubt that lots of people in Israel agree with cell divide but all the polling and such I've seen is clear that it definitely isn't everyone. As apparently lullaby can attest.

In fact I'm pretty sure that any statement about an entire nation consisting of millions of people and concerning a complicated issue which begins with "the people understand..." is probably somewhat, ah, exaggerated.
posted by Justinian at 2:31 AM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Honestly, I don't give a shit what "The Mission" is. Reality is that the IDF is irresponsible in trying to resolve an issue with criminal terrorists by dropping bombs on civilians. The whole paradigm is so fucked up, people within it can't get past dealing with the instant effects to examine the root cause.

But here's a hint. You don't arrest criminals with soldiers or fighter planes. Unfortunately, the Israeli Government doesn't seem to give a damn about 'promoting the general welfare and ensuring domestic tranquillity by ensuring inalienable civil rights, due process of law and equal protection of the law...

Then the goal of 'EVERYONE BEING ABLE TO SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT THEIR KIDS GETTING KILLED' can move forward.
posted by mikelieman at 3:23 AM on July 22, 2014


Israeli military now transform Gazan fishing boats into charcoal.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:48 AM on July 22, 2014


Also if anyone is going to make the claim that regular Israelis want civilian casualties, you should remind yourself that 2 million of those 7 million Israelis are Arab Israelis, and of those 5 million Jewish Israelis, many of them (esp in places like Tel Aviv) are left-wing Israelis who support peace.

And of the pro-war Israeli right-wing, I don't think you can say that all of them want civilian casualties. If you are an American, remind yourself that our pro-war, pro-Israeli right-wing is MORE right-wing than actual Israelis. And while a good portion of them never met a dead Arab they didn't like, its certainly not all.)

That said there is a not-insignificant contingent of US political commentators that openly espouse the idea that Palestinian civilians are culpable for electing Hamas and thus are responsible for their own destruction. This is, not coincidentally, a logic shared by Usama bin Ladin.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:03 AM on July 22, 2014


It's been about 20 minutes since I watched Vice's cellphone video of Gaza civilian killed by sniper and I feel like it gave me PTSD. Just awful. The IDF are war criminals.
posted by crayz at 6:13 AM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]




The IDF solider says in that video that they found rocket launchers next to an agricultural school, so they are going to destroy the school and then the rocket launchers. How is that not a criminal destruction of civilian infrastructure? Are Israeli schools and other civic structures with connections to the Israeli military understood to be legitimate targets, as well as homes or apartment buildings where any IDF active/reservists live?
posted by crayz at 7:55 AM on July 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


A warning shot is a shot that gets attention, right? If you shoot into a building where people are living/working, you're just trying to kill them.

Washington Post has a very illuminating illustration
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:57 AM on July 22, 2014




Are Israeli schools and other civic structures with connections to the Israeli military understood to be legitimate targets, as well as homes or apartment buildings where any IDF active/reservists live?

Yes to the first, no to the second. Using civilians or civilian infrastructure as a shield is against the Geneva Convention, and the legal and ethical responsibility for their death and destruction falls on the combatants using them as a shield.

If Hamas had limited their attacks to Israeli Military and Governmental targets, Israel's hands would be tied - they'd be forced to do ground patrols to weed out the militants and rockets (exposing themselves to heavy losses) and be incredibly careful to avoid civilian casualties, or risk alienating their international allies and causing a domestic political crisis.

Hamas decided they liked indiscriminate terror-attacks better ("Morale Bombing" as they called it in the second world war), so here we are. Israel's allies won't abandon it, regional powers won't ride to Gaza's rescue, innocents by the hundreds are killed in the crossfire and, after it's all over, the screws will be put to ordinary Palestinians even harder than before - probably including a re-settlement of Gaza. It was a pointless and stupid war to start.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:31 AM on July 22, 2014


Médecins Sans Frontières:
“An entire population is trapped in what is essentially an open-air prison,” Mr Whittall writes. “They can’t leave and only the most limited supplies – essential for basic survival – are allowed to enter. The population of the prison have elected representatives and organised social services.

“Some of the prisoners have organised into armed groups and resist their indefinite detention by firing rockets over the prison wall. However, the prison guards are the ones who have the capacity to launch large-scale and highly destructive attacks on the open-air prison.”

In a comparison which is also certain to infuriate Israel, Mr Whittall, who is based in Beirut, says that the limitations of humanitarian groups in Gaza are not unique. “In 2012,” he writes, “MSF closed its projects in the prisons of Misrata, Libya. Our doctors were outraged to be in a position where we were providing treatment to patients who were being tortured by state authorities. At the time, MSF spoke out strongly: ‘Our role is to provide medical care to war casualties and sick detainees, not repeatedly to treat the same patients between torture sessions’.”
posted by crayz at 8:36 AM on July 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


I can't speak for all Israelis and I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to. I'm an American who has been lucky enough to spend summers here for the past 15 years due to family members who live here. I have numerous Israeli friends, including Arab friends. So far the Arab friends are the only ones who have made sympathetic comments regarding the suffering in Gaza. That's not something I've heard expressed by Jewish friends/family or on television or in the Newspaper outside of the usual Ha'aretz columns. My Arab friends tell me the mood here is the darkest it's ever been, they are afraid to speak Arabic in public when on the bus or in shops. Counterweight to that though is I observed many Arab/Jewish coworkers having a great time together in a mall in Kfar Saba. Again, these are all my personal observations as an outsider. My friends/family here tend to be well educated, well-off people, a mix of left and right. If there is a problem with all the civilan casualties, they say, it's Hamas' problem not ours.

When it comes to polls the head of the IDF enjoys overwhelming support in polls despite the very high civilian casualty rate. This suggest to me that people are by and large comfortable with that toll. Also, the polls are very clear that Israelis do not want a ceasefire (last one I saw showed 65% opposed). It's clear to me from watching TV and talking to people that the majority want to inflict pain on Gaza in order to stop the rockets and scare them into thinking about trying it again. This article offers a bit more detail, especially towards the end.
posted by cell divide at 8:36 AM on July 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


If Hamas had limited their attacks to Israeli Military and Governmental targets, Israel's hands would be tied - they'd be forced to do ground patrols to weed out the militants and rockets (exposing themselves to heavy losses) and be incredibly careful to avoid civilian casualties, or risk alienating their international allies and causing a domestic political crisis.

Hamas decided they liked indiscriminate terror-attacks better ("Morale Bombing" as they called it in the second world war), so here we are. Israel's allies won't abandon it, regional powers won't ride to Gaza's rescue, innocents by the hundreds are killed in the crossfire and, after it's all over, the screws will be put to ordinary Palestinians even harder than before - probably including a re-settlement of Gaza. It was a pointless and stupid war to start.


Israel has always conducted violent acts that violate the Geneva Conventions. Its absurd to place the blame entirely on Hamas when Israel has done many of those same acts against places where Hamas doesn't rule and in times before Hamas existed.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on July 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Israel has always conducted violent acts that violate the Geneva Conventions.

And the armed Palestinian factions have always made it very easy for the Israelis to get away with it. It's always seen internationally as the Palestinians being repaid with their own coin.

You'd think they'd clue in already that violent uprisings are a fantasy pushing them further away from an end to occupation.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:03 AM on July 22, 2014


Which is a consequence of those armed faction's non-state status and the Israeli's very effective international PR campaign.

You'd think they'd clue in already that violent uprisings are a fantasy pushing them further away from an end to occupation.

Are you seriously ignoring the absolutely insane amount of nonviolent protest that Palestinians have conducted over the past half century? FFS
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:10 AM on July 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


United as well has suspended flights indefinitely. I assume everyone will follow suit.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:13 AM on July 22, 2014


Osama bin Laden in the Wall Street Journal

Israel's latest self-inflicted wound
When the dust settles, (hamas) will have to explain to the Palestinian and Arab public why they preferred to keep fighting when the cost was so extraordinary.

But that will not exempt Israel from having to explain how, if their forces follow even the elementary rules of warfare, let alone the elevated ones it claims, so many of the dead are civilians, women and children. Israel's international reputation, already badly battered, has now suffered another grievous, self-inflicted wound. Even its friends around the world are deeply disturbed by what distinctly appears to be a wanton disregard for innocent life, a willingness to engage in indiscriminate attacks, and a lack of accountability when its forces deliberately target noncombatants. Israel, too, will have difficult questions to answer.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:01 AM on July 22, 2014 [4 favorites]




I wonder if the banning of flights doesn't give Israel more cover to do whatever they want. Because if the rocket fire shuts down Israel's international airport they have a 100% actual real claim that they are seriously threatening the well being and existence of Israel as a state.
posted by Justinian at 1:22 PM on July 22, 2014




The Hamas guy on CNN is comparing Israel to Hitler and Nazi Germany. So that'll probably go over well.
posted by Justinian at 2:22 PM on July 22, 2014


Well, a ghetto is a ghetto and there are parallels between warsaw and gaza.
posted by mikelieman at 2:43 PM on July 22, 2014


The Hamas guy on CNN is comparing Israel to Hitler and Nazi Germany. So that'll probably go over well.

Who gives a fuck? People are saying crazy stuff all over. How about we ignore what people say and focus on their actions.
posted by klue at 2:55 PM on July 22, 2014


If you are dumb, sure

The United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip has made the same comparison.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:05 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Couple of comments deleted. Folks, please let's not get into the debate over the Warsaw ghetto analogy? Plenty to talk about in this situation on its own without going into the merits/demerits of that very charged, guaranteed-derail comparison.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:07 PM on July 22, 2014




Richard Falk is a nutter and an embarrassment to the UN. He's a 9/11 Truther and he blames everything on "Israel" and the "Israel Lobby", by which he means Jews. He's been caught out posting frankly antisemitic material more than once. He later apologised for "strongly anti-semitic symbolism that I had not detected" - an attack dog with a yarmulke urinating on the Statue of Liberty while chewing bloody bones. He said "My intention has never been to demean in any way Jews as a people despite my strong criticisms of Israeli policies [...] we must also make peace with nature, and treat animals with as much respect as possible."

A real class act in every way.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:58 PM on July 22, 2014


This doesn't look good for UNRWA: For second time, rockets found at UN school in Gaza

UNRWA is understandably not happy about this, particularly at a time when it's seeking additional funding from the USA. On the other hand, this is exactly the sort of thing it's been accused of for years; even the Palestinian Authority (Gaza Strip) mocks the idea that UNRWA doesn't know about it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:07 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Meanwhile, for those thinking the IDF are killing too many civilians, they could in fact have killed much more and should be given a Nobel Peace Prize for showing restraint.
posted by klue at 4:16 PM on July 22, 2014


If the US President can have one then sure, why not.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:27 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Please do not conflate criticism of the Israel Lobby with antisemitism. Please.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:31 PM on July 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Yes, Falk is an outrageous character and the entire Warsaw comparison is more propaganda than accurate.
posted by rosswald at 4:33 PM on July 22, 2014


MisantropicPainforest wrote: Please do not conflate criticism of the Israel Lobby with antisemitism. Please.

Falk, and his fellow travellers, believes that there is some unified "Lobby" that can make the USA and other states do its bidding. It is nothing more than the Protocols of the Elders of Zion dressed up in modern clothes.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:41 PM on July 22, 2014


If the US President can have one then sure, why not.

I agree completely. What I further like about Dermer's talk is him introducing the term moral idiots to denote those critical of Israel's Gaza policies. I think we should adopt the term, and then create an antonym for the other camp. I just can't decide which one's better, moral geniuses for its irony, or immoral geniuses for its accuracy.
posted by klue at 4:45 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Beseeching Israel: No more killings in my name

This was published in the Raleigh News and Observer (in North Carolina). I'm fairly surprised that they published it, since NC is still more red than purple.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:53 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Falk, and his fellow travellers, believes that there is some unified "Lobby" that can make the USA and other states do its bidding.

Without getting into discussing disgusting anti-Hebrew (Semitic refers to peoples from an area, which includes Arabs) conspiracy bullshit, you may want to look up AIPAC and how much power they wield.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:58 PM on July 22, 2014


anti-Hebrew (Semitic refers to peoples from an area, which includes Arabs)

This is absolutely silly. If we are going to be needlessly pedantic, Semitic is a linguistic term that refers to a language family based on the triple root system (interestingly, maltese is the only one written in the latin script). Antisemitism and/or anti-semitism refer to actual things, specifically anti-Jewish bigotry.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:01 PM on July 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Exactly. Words have meanings and that's what antisemitism means in much the same way that homophobia means something different than "fear of gay people" despite the literal meaning of the root words.
posted by Justinian at 5:14 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


I do agree that AIPAC wields more power than I would like. But so does AARP. Or the telecom lobby. Or the pharmaceutical lobby. Or the NRA.

Lobbying in general is a problem.
posted by Justinian at 5:15 PM on July 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Falk, and his fellow travellers, believes that there is some unified "Lobby" that can make the USA and other states do its bidding.

You mean those hugely respected and influential IR scholars like Mearshimer and Walt? They're anti-semites? I urge you to actually read the arguments and familiarize yourself with the actual IR scholarship on this issue. Because proponents of the Israel Lobby thesis never EVER say that it is a unified lobby that makes the US do its bidding. They say that the Israel Lobby is a catchall term for a conglomeration of various groups that aren't centrally organized but seek to achieve similar goals. Kind of like Big Pharma and Big Oil and the Cuban Lobby.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:25 PM on July 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Also if anyone wants my really boring but what I think to be actually quite clever peer-reviewed research on the origins of the Israel Lobby's power in the US, memail me.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:30 PM on July 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


If the US President can have one then sure, why not.

Bibi will have to wait. This is Putin's year.
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:23 PM on July 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Infographic: the names and ages of the 132 Palestinian children killed in Gaza thus far.
posted by BinGregory at 7:50 PM on July 22, 2014


BinGregory, how many of those were killed by Hamas and its allies? And how many would be alive if Hamas didn't refuse to end its war?
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:11 PM on July 22, 2014


Joe, how many of those were killed by Hamas and its allies?
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:13 PM on July 22, 2014


BinGregory, how many of those were killed by Hamas and its allies? And how many would be alive if Hamas didn't refuse to end its war?

In other words... "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself!"
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:16 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


BinGregory, how many of those were killed by Hamas and its allies?

Considering they died in Gaza, probably none?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:28 PM on July 22, 2014


There could be some friendly fire incidents (maybe 10%-20%), but before it seemed like Joe was saying most of them have to have been hit by Hamas rockets that fell short or something because the IDF is the "most moral army in the world."
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:31 PM on July 22, 2014




Ray Walston, children in Gaza were being killed by premature explosions, short-falling rockets, and unexploded ordnance before the start of the current war. It is simply not possible that the vastly-larger number of rockets Hamas has fired since then has caused no casualties.

I don't think Hamas believes that the death of children in war is a bad thing. If they die, they die as martyrs, which is their religious duty. That would explain why Hamas hasn't built bomb shelters, despite having used thousands of tons of cement and other materials to build terror tunnels into Israel. Hamas refuses ceasefires; it continues to fire rockets at Israel; it is deliberately placing children in harm's way; what is Israel to do?

Answers on a postcard, please.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:38 PM on July 22, 2014


"They totally goaded us into killing children! What were we supposed to do- NOT kill them??"
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:44 PM on July 22, 2014


Showbiz_liz, you know that Israel is firing at missile sites, not children. Hamas is still rejecting offers of ceasefires, and - quite apart from the direct harm caused by its rockets - has succeeded in disrupting air travel to Israel. What is Israel to do? Surely you have some suggestion?
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:13 PM on July 22, 2014


NYT: Darkness falls on Gaza
The terms outlined by Hamas for a cease-fire are the same as those the United Nations has called for repeatedly: open the border crossings; let people work, study and build the economy.
posted by BinGregory at 9:49 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


From that OpEd:
Cement is especially severely rationed because Israel suspects it is diverted by Hamas to build tunnels for fighters.
Suspects? Hamas boasts about it! They give conducted tours to reporters, and videos showing the tunnels are broadcast on Al-Jazeera! Literally nobody doubts that Hamas diverts a big chunk of everything it can use, and taxes anything it doesn't want. I have heard that the payoffs-in-kind take place in broad daylight, right outside the crossing.

What Hamas is actually demanding are things that neither Israel, nor Egypt, nor the UN, and not even the Palestinian Authority want them to have: things that would make it easier for Hamas to import weapons so they can continue killing people. That's just for a ceasefire, not an actual peace treaty, because it is theologically impossible for Hamas to conclude a peace treaty with Jews.

The main reason Israel would accept a ceasefire is that it's sick of killing people; a state of active war with Hamas isn't all that much better than Hamas' other state of perpetual low-level attacks and terrorist outrage. From Israel's perspective, it's probably better to have Hamas firing lots of rockets at once than to have them arrive irregularly over the course of a year. And who knows? Perhaps Hamas will ultimately be replaced by someone in Gaza is in a position to conclude a genuine peace treaty, or at least a substantial ceasefire.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:32 PM on July 22, 2014


Showbiz_liz, you know that Israel is firing at missile sites, not children.

Evidence says that Israel *is* firing at children sometimes.

Israeli Shelling Kills 4 Children on Gaza Beach

By Alice Speri
July 16, 2014

posted by mikelieman at 10:39 PM on July 22, 2014


The Israeli Government should invade and occupy Gaza. WITH CIVILIAN POLICE. Restore Civil Order. Arrest and Charge Terrorists with their alleged crimes. Put them on trial, and if guilty -- damned well execute them.

Your average Gaza-resident, who fears the criminal terrorists of Hamas in ways Israelis can't ever understand, would greet the people "Promoting the General Welfare", "Restoring Domestic Tranquillity"and bringing them both "Due Process of Law" and "Equal Protection of the Law" -- would greet them as the liberators they are.
posted by mikelieman at 11:13 PM on July 22, 2014


Showbiz_liz, you know that Israel is firing at missile sites, not children.

Joe right after I posted that video of the young civilian getting killed, you responded with a now deleted comment that you wanted to bet me the video was staged. Now we hear otherwise, but don't let that stop you from the endless refrain of how much Israel respects civilian life and how Hamas, whose current body count is over 90% IDF, while Israel has a body count twenty times as high and with a rate of 70-80% civilians according to the UN. In a conflict supposedly based on Israel's self-defense, over 99.99% of everyone who has died has died in Gaza.

Would any facts whatsoever change your mind regarding the situational ethics of the respective parties in this conflict?
posted by crayz at 11:21 PM on July 22, 2014 [18 favorites]


Ray Walston, children in Gaza were being killed by premature explosions, short-falling rockets, and unexploded ordnance before the start of the current war. It is simply not possible that the vastly-larger number of rockets Hamas has fired since then has caused no casualties.

I don't think Hamas believes that the death of children in war is a bad thing. If they die, they die as martyrs, which is their religious duty. That would explain why Hamas hasn't built bomb shelters, despite having used thousands of tons of cement and other materials to build terror tunnels into Israel. Hamas refuses ceasefires; it continues to fire rockets at Israel; it is deliberately placing children in harm's way; what is Israel to do?


I'll grant that shoddy rockets could easily kill Palestinians as well as Israelis. That, to me, does not excuse the children killed by the IDF.

As for what Israel could do, something that doesn't kill hundreds of civilians, many of them women and children. But I understand shelling and aerial bombardment are safer for IDF personnel than actual police work.

I'm beginning to wonder if the current Gazan excursion for the IDF is even related to the kidnapped teenagers at all. The IDF seems a lot more interested in degrading Gazan infrastructure than arresting anyone.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:30 PM on July 22, 2014


The Israeli Government should invade and occupy Gaza. WITH CIVILIAN POLICE.

That wouldn't work because in the absence of the IDF Hamas would easily kill all the civilian police. Or, if the civilian police were present in sufficient force to make that impossible they would be in most important ways indistinguishable from a military force.
posted by Justinian at 11:42 PM on July 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't think when the Hamas gang is on the run from the Law, they're going to have a lot of resources to kill the local-lads hired to ensure domestic tranquillity and due process of law.

Of course, I never gave a gang of criminal terrorists the credit of being a sovereign entity in the first place, and can't personally understand what motives rational people have for elevating them above what they are. Criminals whose gang has terrorized the citizens they're exploiting because there's no civil authority who cares about them.

Create that civil authority. Problem solved.

Or do people really think that dropping bombs on children is preferable? Because whether or not they're human shields, the guy who drops the bomb is responsible for their deaths. Period. And if some actually PREFER that to "One Nation, With Liberty and Justice for All", then I pity them and weep for the dead children and destroyed families that will happen today.
posted by mikelieman at 12:03 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Haaretz: The Country that Wouldn't Grow Up.
posted by BinGregory at 12:14 AM on July 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


Of course, I never gave a gang of criminal terrorists the credit of being a sovereign entity in the first place [...]

I don't suppose they care much about your opinion. There's a very real argument that Hamas is actually the legitimate government of both Gaza and the West Bank, but in any event it is unarguably the actual government of the Gaza Strip. In case you're interested, here's a potted history of Palestinian government in the West Bank and Gaza:

The Palestinian National Authority (PA) was established in 1994 (I think), pursuant to the Oslo Accords. Its legislative body was to be the Palestinian Legislative Council, for which an election was held in 2006. Hamas started a distant second to Fatah, but rose in popularity during the campaign. None the less, everyone seemed to be surprised when they won a convincing majority of seats.

Electoral success did not moderate Hamas; there were a number of cross-border raids, including the one in which Gilad Shalit was captured. As a consequence of this, Israel and the Quartet (the UN, EU, USA and Russia; four bodies then mediating the "peace proces") imposed sanctions against the PA , demanding that it renounce violence, recognise Israel, and accept agreements made by the PA before the 2006 elections. The Hamas-led PA did not accept these terms. Israel and the Quartet kept pressure on the PA, which meant (among other things) that it couldn't pay government salaries. Simultaneously, Fatah was jockeying for position with Hamas and apparently began plotting a coup. This was probably encouraged by Israel and the Quartet, but whatever. Hamas preempted or forestalled the coup (or possibly was just itching for a fight) and war broke out between Hamas and Fatah in 2007. At its conclusion, Hamas controlled Gaza and Fatah controlled the West Bank. The government in Gaza was directed by the Palestinian prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh, and the government in the West Bank was theoretically directed by a new Prime Minister appointed by Abbas: Salam Fayyad (now replaced by Rami Hamdallah).

So that's where we are now. I think Hamas would still have a plurality of the Legislative Council, but it doesn't sit (obviously). If it did, though, it would presumably follow Hamas' dictates.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:41 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Ray Walston, Luck Dragon wrote: I'll grant that shoddy rockets could easily kill Palestinians as well as Israelis. That, to me, does not excuse the children killed by the IDF.

No. Nothing excuses it. There's the defense of necessity, but that defense needs to be questioned all the time. Nobody here has been able to suggest any better solution to the problem of Hamas' attacks, though.

I understand shelling and aerial bombardment are safer for IDF personnel than actual police work.

Absolutely. Israel does not govern the Gaza Strip; it is not capable of doing so. I can't imagine any circumstance in which it could. Perhaps there's no way anyone could, without using the sort of methods that Hamas does.

I'm beginning to wonder if the current Gazan excursion for the IDF is even related to the kidnapped teenagers at all.

I don't think it ever was, although I'm pretty sure the kidnapping and murders helped sway Israeli public opinion in favor of the war. The legal basis of the war is Hamas' attacks against Israel, and there's no doubt that Hamas was doing that.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:55 AM on July 23, 2014


I don't think when the Hamas gang is on the run from the Law, they're going to have a lot of resources to kill the local-lads hired to ensure domestic tranquillity and due process of law.

I think you're pretty obviously grossly underestimating Hamas. This isn't a couple punks with a switchblade who would be intimidated by Officer Moustache and his pals. It's an organized paramilitary organization with heavy weaponry and training in small unit tactics. They have assault rifles, machine guns, RPGs, assorted other anti-tank weaponry, bunkers, mortars, (inaccurate) rockets, and all kinds of other thigs which are quite capable of killing soldiers much less civilian cops.

I don't really understand how you can think they'd be cowed by a standard civilian police force. Besides which that would require a full re-occupation of Gaza which most people would decry anyway.
posted by Justinian at 1:11 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


I suppose "organized" is implied by the term "organization" but you know what I mean.
posted by Justinian at 1:12 AM on July 23, 2014


Why do we have Governments, Campers?

To promote the self-evident truths that "All men are created equal, with inalienable rights including Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".

Hamas fails that test, so I don't consider them a legitimate government, with the consent of the governed. NOW, who is going to step up and free these people, bringing them the OPPORTUNITY to replace it with one which does promote their own self interests?

I would suggest that given the precedent in Iraq, the United States should invade, go block by block, town by town removing the criminal terrorists -- and UNLIKE Iraq -- leaving behind a local police force and courts with actual authority. ( Fuck you "L. Paul Bremer"... )
posted by mikelieman at 4:01 AM on July 23, 2014


"Besides which that would require a full re-occupation of Gaza which most people would decry anyway."

Man, if ONLY the Israeli Government was formed around a policy with ONE NATION, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. Then they would have the duty to their own people to take care of the criminal gangs terrorizing them daily.

It's better than dropping bombs on children, isn't it?
posted by mikelieman at 4:03 AM on July 23, 2014




Yes, I see the children.
posted by Mchelly at 4:24 AM on July 23, 2014


Guardian: In a hospital. At the beach. Hamas, Israel tells us, is hiding among civilians

USA Today: John Kerry arrives in Tel Aviv to broker cease-fire

Mondoweiss: Arab reporters come under attack from Israelis (includes video of Israeli attacking BBC Arabic reporter on air)

Mediaite: MSNBC Guest Who Called Out Israel Coverage Returns for Heated Talk with Chris Hayes (features Rula Jebreal, mentioned upthread)

Video of Shujaiya shelling from Palestinian perspective (via Max Blumenthal)

Banners with names of Gaza dead hung on Pigeon Rock in Lebanon
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:16 AM on July 23, 2014 [2 favorites]


Nobody here has been able to suggest any better solution to the problem of Hamas' attacks, though.

Uh, stop placing Gaza under seige? Open the borders? Stop occupying Palestinian territory? Stop checkpoints? Stop bulldozing people's homes? Stop the settlements? Stop bombing civilians?

And you haven't be able to suggest any better solution to the much bigger problem of Israel's attacks, though.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:04 AM on July 23, 2014 [4 favorites]


Those might be things that you are concerned about, but they're not the things that Hamas is converned about. Hamas believes that it is impossible - blasphemous - to tolerate the existence of any non-Islamic state. I keep linking to Hamas' charter; have you read it? Did you read my brief history of the Palestinian Authority? The sanctions were originally imposed - with international support - because Hamas would not negotiate with Israel or even recognise it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:37 AM on July 23, 2014




I keep linking to Hamas' charter; have you read it?

I didn't have to read the Unibomber's Manifesto to know he was a criminal using terror tactics. Hamas is a criminal organization using terror tactics against civilian populations.

They are NOT a sovereign nation. I really wish people would stop treating them like it.
posted by mikelieman at 6:59 AM on July 23, 2014


Hamas' charter was drafted 25 years ago back when it was literally just a handful of people. I don't see how that's relevant to the organizations current goals.

Hamas believes that it is impossible - blasphemous - to tolerate the existence of any non-Islamic state.

This is not true. M'shal has said that Hamas accepts the two-state solution.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:00 AM on July 23, 2014


Joe in Australia: Those might be things that you are concerned about, but they're not the things that Hamas is converned about.

This is a really two-dimensional, short-sighted way of looking at it. Hamas is empowered because of Israeli actions. If Israel did the things MisantropicPainforest mentioned, Hamas starts losing support. They have nothing to blame their failure of governance in Gaza on. They either wither or moderate.

Think that's impossible? Then you evidently never heard of Fatah, or apparently can't see the difference between Arafat and Abbas. Even Hamas can moderate, and if they don't they'll become a fringe group. Unless Israel keeps handing them fresh atrocities and martyrs.

Will that happen instantly? Of course not. The Israeli government keeps playing this game throughout the years where they make some small or poisoned concession and when violence doesn't go to zero in some trivial amount of time, they declare peace can't be had. This is what I meant in this comment. Israel will have to react to violence with restraint during a transition phase. Is that fair? Probably not. Is that the way to peace, which is ultimately the only way Israel can survive? Yes.

Your error is thinking that this is up to Hamas. In reality, it's more like the prisoner's dilemma, where moves towards peace will hurt each side with their more extreme factions. The difference is, Palestine already did it, and paid the price with seven years of split government and nothing to show for it, while Israel is far more powerful with robust insitutions to handle internal resistance to peace.
posted by spaltavian at 7:02 AM on July 23, 2014 [9 favorites]


And even if we accept that Hamas is the devil and just wants to kill every Jew in the world, none of that justifies what Israel is doing to the poor innocent Palestinian children. None of it.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:03 AM on July 23, 2014 [2 favorites]


And nothing Israel does justifies launching rockets or killing Israelis or anything.

The difference seems to be here, that no one here trying to justify the killing of Israelis.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:10 AM on July 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


NYT: Questions About Tactics and Targets as Civilian Toll Climbs in Israeli Strikes
The Palestinian deaths — 75 percent of them civilians, according to a United Nations count — have prompted a wave of international outrage, and are raising questions about Israel’s stated dedication to protecting civilians.
...

But while Israel has in the past killed Hamas members with attacks so precise that others riding in their cars have survived, in this conflict, there have been numerous instances of family homes being struck with residents inside. More and more Palestinians are accusing Israel of trying to inflict maximum suffering to demoralize Palestinians and weaken support for Hamas.
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:18 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]






Uh, stop placing Gaza under seige? Open the borders? Stop occupying Palestinian territory? Stop checkpoints? Stop bulldozing people's homes? Stop the settlements? Stop bombing civilians?

Opening the borders without changing the Gazan leadership would be bad for all sides, but especially the Gazan civilians. Hamas' tunnels and rocket stockpiles clearly demonstrate that they have prioritized building-up their offensive capabilities (at the expense of civilian infrastructure) - if the blockade ends with Hamas still in power you can be sure the next war will be far more deadly than this one.
posted by rosswald at 9:57 AM on July 23, 2014 [2 favorites]


The Israeli government keeps playing this game throughout the years where they make some small or poisoned concession and when violence doesn't go to zero in some trivial amount of time, they declare peace can't be had.[...] Israel will have to react to violence with restraint during a transition phase.

I am sure the idea that a Palestinian democracy's teething-process must be paid for with Israeli blood would be a popular one, but don't be surprised that the Israelis won't think that is acceptable.
posted by rosswald at 10:08 AM on July 23, 2014


Ah yes, the old "hey starving kid, these bombs and this blockade are good for you!" argument. which is always on the right side of history.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:15 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


rosswald : I am sure the idea that a Palestinian democracy's teething-process must be paid for with Israeli blood would be a popular one, but don't be surprised that the Israelis won't think that is acceptable.

Well, that was certainly an honest and thoughtful response! You're clearly worth talking and listening to. Massive assualts that kill lots of civilians is of course the only way to respond to people purposely trying to derail the peace process. Israel should certainly keep playing Hamas' game.
posted by spaltavian at 10:21 AM on July 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


Ah yes, the old "hey starving kid, these bombs and this blockade are good for you!" argument. which is always on the right side of history.
posted by MisantropicPainforest


Do you have an actual argument about the points I made? Besides, Hamas has already diverted hundreds of millions of dollars into building reinforced tunnels and rocket workshops - what makes you think that the lifting of a blockade would even help feed those starving children?
posted by rosswald at 10:24 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Comment removed, pages-long copy pastes aren't really great for Mefi threads; better to just link to something that long.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:26 AM on July 23, 2014


Do you have an actual argument about the points I made? Besides, Hamas has already diverted hundreds of millions of dollars into building reinforced tunnels and rocket workshops - what makes you think that the lifting of a blockade would even help feed those starving children?

If there wasn't a blockade, Gaza could have that thing that feeds people. I think it's called... an economy.

How exactly do you think Hamas gets displaced by continuing to make them the warden of an open air prison? Have you thought more than one step out on this?
posted by spaltavian at 10:29 AM on July 23, 2014 [2 favorites]


Here's an argument: civilians in Gaza do not want to be blockaded. They know what is in their interest and they know what is good for them. Sorry but you don't.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:30 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Massive assaults that kill lots of civilians is of course the only way to respond to people purposely trying to derail the peace process

That is not what I said. I just don't imagine that in a democracy, where people can choose their own leadership, anyone would ever be elected on a platform of not responding to terrorist attacks.
posted by rosswald at 10:31 AM on July 23, 2014


Except for Spain and England.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:33 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


How exactly do you think Hamas gets displaced by continuing to make them the warden of an open air prison? Have you thought more than one step out on this?
posted by spaltavian


How does Hamas get displaced if the blockade is lifted, and in addition to the additional revenue they pull in they use the opportunity to re-arm and re-secure their positions?
posted by rosswald at 10:35 AM on July 23, 2014


Massive assaults that kill lots of civilians is of course the only way to respond to people purposely trying to derail the peace process

That is not what I said.


It's what you said just like how I said "Palestinian democracy's teething-process must be paid for with Israeli blood".

anyone would ever be elected on a platform of not responding to terrorist attacks.

Who said "not respond"? I said restraint. Bust down doors. Knock some heads. Make arrests. But restraint means not bombing, not invading, not leveling houses. Not putting civilians in harm's way.
posted by spaltavian at 10:36 AM on July 23, 2014


Bust down doors. Knock some heads. Make arrests.

In Gaza? Who exactly will be doing this arresting?
posted by rosswald at 10:38 AM on July 23, 2014


I just don't imagine that in a democracy, where people can choose their own leadership, anyone would ever be elected on a platform of not responding to terrorist attacks.

Israel can respond to terrorist attacks without massacring civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure. I would hope this would be part of a winning platform.

This video gives a terrifying glimpse into life in Gaza this week
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:38 AM on July 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


rosswald, what would make you think it is ok to lift the blockade?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:39 AM on July 23, 2014


How exactly do you think Hamas gets displaced by continuing to make them the warden of an open air prison? Have you thought more than one step out on this?

How does Hamas get displaced if the blockade is lifted, and in addition to the additional revenue they pull in they use the opportunity to re-arm and re-secure their positions?


Because Palestinians aren't monsters and will eventually reject an armed gang once they can get jobs and stuff? Are you serious with this?

Extra revenue is not what keeps Hamas around. They operate just fine now. It's the support of Gazans who seem Hamas as at least protecting them.

In Gaza? Who exactly will be doing this arresting?

So, you really do think massive assaults that kill lots of civilians the only way to respond to people purposely trying to derail the peace process?

I will never understand people are so pro-Israel they think Israel should keep doing exactly what Hamas wants them do.
posted by spaltavian at 10:47 AM on July 23, 2014


First, I should say that I was completely serious when I said lifting the blockade with Hamas in power will end up harming Gazan civilians in the long run. Things may be okay for a few months, or years - but it would just end with another war with yet even heavier weapons being deployed.

To end the blockade, IMO, either some variant of the unity govt. or the PA itself would need to be in power in Gaza with the same kind of security cooperation seen in the WB, and/or UN inspections at the crossings. Jail-time for militants or groups who fire across the border.
posted by rosswald at 10:48 AM on July 23, 2014


Things may be okay for a few months, or years - but it would just end with another war with yet even heavier weapons being deployed

This seems like an entirely speculative justification for waging war on civilians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:50 AM on July 23, 2014 [3 favorites]




Fired MSNBC Contributor Speaks Out on Suppression of Israel-Palestine Debate

I actually met the reporter once in NYC, back when she was married to the artist Julian Schnable. Super-intelligent person, her life story (which she turned into a book) is pretty crazy.
posted by cell divide at 11:01 AM on July 23, 2014 [1 favorite]




Yeah, DN has been giving the Gaza issue a lot of coverage, including a debate today between Ali Abunimah and JJ Goldberg.

HuffPo: America's Israeli Jihadists (about Americans fighting in the Israeli army)

FDL: Pro-Israel Real Estate Broker... Arrested at Chicago Rally for Carrying Gun

Haaretz: Right-wing rabbi’s ruling: Israel may totally destroy Gaza if necessary
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:15 PM on July 23, 2014




I don't know about British Jews, but this Canadian is dreading people talking about the war at synagogue this Saturday. We've been on summer hiatus since it began, but it's a topic I just don't talk about with other synagogue members. No one publically criticizes Israeli policy, though quietly people do make dissent known (like mentioning putting Palestinian olive oil on a "modern Seder plate", as a symbol of oppression).

I've wanted to start what I call the Mercutio Movement - a plague on both their houses. A kinder person than me suggested instead a Romeo & Juliet Movement, to try to unite the sensible on both sides. But I don't know if that will happen before far too many people - primarily Palestinian - for there to be peace.
posted by jb at 5:58 PM on July 23, 2014


I realise that it's Shakespeare, but it would be nice if you could pick someone who survives the end of the play.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:10 PM on July 23, 2014 [2 favorites]


Wrong play.
posted by Trochanter at 7:20 PM on July 23, 2014


Not sure where on the political spectrum the WaPo editorial board sits but they're putting a lot of the blame on Hamas for building tunnels into Israel for the sole purpose of carrying out attacks in this editorial: The U.S. should push for the disarming of Hamas in Gaza-Israel cease-fire.
posted by PenDevil at 12:01 AM on July 24, 2014


A remarkably frank TV interview with a person identified as Musheer Al-Masri, the Speaker of the defunct-ish Palestinian Legislative Council, and spokesman for Hamas: Mushir Al Masri, member of Hamas parliament
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:12 AM on July 24, 2014


When's the next Israeli settlement opening on land taken away from Palestinians in the illegally occupied West Bank?
posted by Mister Bijou at 12:45 AM on July 24, 2014


I think things are quite heated enough here without anyone trying to start a fight.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:06 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


The Lancet: An open letter for the people in Gaza "We ask our colleagues, old and young professionals, to denounce this Israeli aggression."

AJE: Kerry, Peres meet family of American killed in Gaza fighting for Israel

Buzzfeed: [Rula Jebreal] Labeled “Palestinian Journalist” During Her Next Appearance (instead of "MSNBC Contributor")
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:52 AM on July 24, 2014


It's difficult to argue that the constant ongoing theft of Palestinian land, a process that's continued for decades throughout all of Israel's "peace" negotiations, is not directly relevant in this thread, but ok, Joe, if that's your point, let's see the argument.

Anyway, that 2006 Tony Judt op-ed published in Haaretz that BinGregory linked above has some provocative things to say about anti-Semitism and the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land:

And so, shorn of all other justifications for its behavior, Israel and its supporters today fall back with increasing shrillness upon the oldest claim of all: Israel is a Jewish state and that is why people criticize it. This - the charge that criticism of Israel is implicitly anti-Semitic - is regarded in Israel and the United States as Israel's trump card. If it has been played more insistently and aggressively in recent years, that is because it is now the only card left.

The habit of tarring any foreign criticism with the brush of anti-Semitism is deeply engrained in Israeli political instincts: Ariel Sharon used it with characteristic excess but he was only the latest in a long line of Israeli leaders to exploit the claim. David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir did no different. But Jews outside of Israel pay a high price for this tactic. Not only does it inhibit their own criticisms of Israel for fear of appearing to associate with bad company, but it encourages others to look upon Jews everywhere as de facto collaborators in Israel's misbehavior. When Israel breaks international law in the occupied territories, when Israel publicly humiliates the subject populations whose land it has seized - but then responds to its critics with loud cries of "anti-Semitism" - it is in effect saying that these acts are not Israeli acts, they are Jewish acts: The occupation is not an Israeli occupation, it is a Jewish occupation, and if you don't like these things it is because you don't like Jews.

In many parts of the world this is in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling assertion: Israel's reckless behavior and insistent identification of all criticism with anti-Semitism is now the leading source of anti-Jewish sentiment in Western Europe and much of Asia. But the traditional corollary - if anti-Jewish feeling is linked to dislike of Israel then right-thinking people should rush to Israel's defense - no longer applies. Instead, the ironies of the Zionist dream have come full circle: For tens of millions of people in the world today, Israel is indeed the state of all the Jews. And thus, reasonably enough, many observers believe that one way to take the sting out of rising anti-Semitism in the suburbs of Paris or the streets of Jakarta would be for Israel to give the Palestinians back their land.

posted by mediareport at 4:55 AM on July 24, 2014 [7 favorites]


I really don't think we need this conversation at this time, or that you need me in it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:35 AM on July 24, 2014


I disagree with the former. There have been some pretty vile accusations of anti-semitism right in this thread.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:36 AM on July 24, 2014


This land is mine.
posted by jbickers at 5:37 AM on July 24, 2014


And so, shorn of all other justifications for its behavior,

Apart from the rocket and mortar attacks, completely denuded, sure.

Israel and its supporters today fall back with increasing shrillness upon the oldest claim of all: Israel is a Jewish state and that is why people criticize it. This - the charge that criticism of Israel is implicitly anti-Semitic - is regarded in Israel and the United States as Israel's trump card. If it has been played more insistently and aggressively in recent years, that is because it is now the only card left.

It's pretty terrible when the right wing goes on and on about the Race Card and people using it - it's usually a pretty clear indicator that the commentator is out of sorts that they can't say something racist without being called a racist. It's pretty terrible when the "left" (note scarequotes) does the same thing.

Israel's reckless behavior and insistent identification of all criticism with anti-Semitism is now the leading source of anti-Jewish sentiment in Western Europe and much of Asia.

Aaaaand there it is. Israel, and not irrational ethnic hatred, is responsible for antisemitism. It's the jew's own fault everyone hates them. What an odious argument.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:39 AM on July 24, 2014 [3 favorites]


You're doing exactly what Judt points out is the problem, Slap*Happy: equating the far-right fundamentalist theft of Palestinian land with "the jews." There it is, indeed.
posted by mediareport at 6:11 AM on July 24, 2014 [5 favorites]


You're doing exactly what Judt points out is the problem, Slap*Happy: equating the far-right fundamentalist theft of Palestinian land with "the jews."

No, I didn't. How on earth did you read that into it?
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:20 AM on July 24, 2014




Some people seem to be under the impression that Israel was just sitting around minding its own business when Hamas rolled up and started rocketing them for no reason at all.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:34 AM on July 24, 2014 [12 favorites]


According to aljazeera arabic, 13 more people killed and over a hundred wounded after Israel bombed a school in bayt hanoon
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:44 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


No reason could justify Hamas' attacks on civilians. Even the PA agrees that it's a war crime.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:48 AM on July 24, 2014


The Times of Israel ran an interesting opinion piece last week about the constant pressure Netanyahu (and any Israeli politician with hopes of national office) is facing from the far-right, in this case his own foreign minister, Avigdor Liberman, who actually went on a self-promoting tour of the country to undermine Netanyahu's approach to the conflict:

[T]he foreign minister called in the media to set out his own, alternative approach to the resolution of Israel’s wars with Hamas. That this was a nakedly self-serving political gambit goes without saying. Liberman meanders all over the center-right of the political spectrum as he deems expedient; at the end of the previous round of conflict, Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, Liberman had hailed Israel’s conduct of a limited, eight-day campaign in which it did not use ground forces, declaring that “Strength is not only to strike, but also to exercise restraint,” and even praising then-Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi for his “responsible role” in resolving the crisis.

Untenably, on Tuesday, Liberman sought to score points at the expense of Israelis’ faith in their leadership. Whether his prescription for Gaza is right or wrong — does Israel really want to reconquer Gaza and retake responsibility for 1.6 million Palestinians there? How many Israelis might die in the process? How will Israel’s international legitimacy be affected? Are there better ways to de-fang Hamas, including via the quietly flourishing Israeli-Egyptian axis? — the fact is that he was not elected to run this country. If he thinks the man who was is doing a lousy job, he should quit the government, not undermine it from within. Least of all from his position at the helm of Israel’s entire diplomatic hierarchy.


Netanyahu fired a deputy defense minister for doing the same, but if he tried to fire Liberman his governing coalitiion would almost certainly fall apart.
posted by mediareport at 6:48 AM on July 24, 2014


According to aljazeera arabic, 13 more people killed and over a hundred wounded after Israel bombed a school in bayt hanoon

Here are reports from Ma'an and AJE.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:50 AM on July 24, 2014


No reason could justify Hamas' attacks on civilians. Even the PA agrees that it's a war crime.

These jerks keep attacking civilians! Let's get them back by literally attacking civilians
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:50 AM on July 24, 2014 [3 favorites]


No reason could justify Hamas' attacks on civilians.

I agree. Do you agree that no reason could justify Israel's attacks on civilians?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 AM on July 24, 2014 [7 favorites]




I don't accept that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, but if it were to do so then sure: that would be a war crime.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:58 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


This won't end well: Hamas Al Qassam offices are next to the emergency room at Shifa Hospital

You know who has the power to make it NOT not end well? The people who get to decide whether to blow up that hospital.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:59 AM on July 24, 2014


I don't accept that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians

Then they have shit aim. What with all the dead civilians.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:00 AM on July 24, 2014 [9 favorites]


Joe in Australia, via NBC: Over the course of the day UNRWA tried to coordinate with the Israeli Army a window for civilians to leave. It was never granted.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 AM on July 24, 2014


I'll be sure to tell the families of the 300+ dead kids that hey, the IDF didn't mean to kill your kid so its totes cool.

Intentions don't matter.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:05 AM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


International Humanist and Ethical Union Statement on Israel-Palestine Conflict
We are alarmed by reports of airstrikes on some egregious targets and reports of the resumption of punitive property demolitions.

We note that, in addition to the real tragedy for each individual affected by the current conflict, the ideological and regional context also inflates the risks of prolonging the violence.

We urge the United Nations and all regional players to recognise this complexity and to intervene only with a sense of balance and compassion.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:05 AM on July 24, 2014


Haaretz: Images from Gaza should trouble every Israeli (Gideon Levy)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:15 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Haaretz: The full text is available for subscribers & registered users.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:23 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Sorry, I guess it's one of those annoying cases where the site only shows non-subscribers the full article if they get to it through a search engine. Here's a link that should work.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:29 AM on July 24, 2014


Intentions don't matter.
posted by MisantropicPainforest


According to which legal framework?
posted by rosswald at 7:40 AM on July 24, 2014


I'm not seeking to apply a legal framework.

I'm for exposing the moral depravity and the hypocrisy of the useful idiots who have limitless justifications for why it is ok for Israel to kill innocent Palestinian civilians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:49 AM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


According to all the friends and family of those who are now dead or injured, as well as those of us with consciences. The fact that Israel claims to not target civilians when they know damn well that pounding the fuck out of an area like Gaza is going to hurt mostly innocent people, is well, murder. As I mentioned up-thread, watching "my people" once again slaughter all these innocent children and women is a fuckin' embarrassment, to say the least. Would a blood transfusion rid me of my feeling of guilt by association?
posted by gman at 7:51 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


'There are no safe places' for children in Gaza, UNICEF officer says. "I can say that 70 percent of the population is now without access to safe water."
posted by jbickers at 7:59 AM on July 24, 2014


More on the school from Haaretz:
4:52 P.M. Palestinian sources in Gaza say 15 people were killed and some 100 wounded by IDF artillery fire directed at an UNRWA school in Beit Hanoun.

According to eyewitness accounts, the "Kaa-Albir'' school was hit by four shells fired by IDF forces. According to one testimony, one of the shells struck the school's court, which at the time was crowdeed with refugee families, who relocated there after fleeing their homes in the northern Gaza Strip. Reports say the majority of the dead are women and children. Survivors say no early warning was given. (Jack Khouri)
My God. How could this not be targetting civilians?

"I can say that 70 percent of the population is now without access to safe water."

Holy Shit
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:07 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Chris Gunness, spokesman for the main U.N. agency in Gaza UNRWA, confirmed the strike and criticised Israel:

"Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter in Beit Hanoun had been formally given to the Israeli army ... Over the course of the day UNRWA tried to coordinate with the Israeli Army a window for civilians to leave and it was never granted," Gunness said on his Twitter page.

Source: Guardian's Live Updates
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:19 AM on July 24, 2014


If you target public infrastructure - the power plant, the hospitals and schools, plumbing and sewerage - you're targeting civilians. If a 10 to 1 ratio of civilians killed to hamas militants is acceptable, you're targeting civilians. It's collective punishment. Which is illegal.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:37 AM on July 24, 2014 [4 favorites]




That's not actually the case. A 10:1 ratio seems to be not uncommon in urban warfare (e.g., NATO's intervention in the former Yugoslavia) but in any event the ratio of civilians killed by Israel in the last Gaza war was a lot closer to 1:1, and I think that will be true this time too. The Gazan casualty figures are coming via Hamas, and they are not to be relied upon.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 AM on July 24, 2014


So those civilians killed are justified?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:57 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe in Australia: The Gazan casualty figures are coming via Hamas, and they are not to be relied upon.

Obviously the same goes for the numbers the Israelis put out. Now, I believe on the other side, there's currently a 10:1 kill rate of IDF to Israeli civilians...
posted by gman at 9:07 AM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]




Gman wrote: I believe on the other side, there's currently a 10:1 kill rate of IDF to Israeli civilians...

Yes; and while the IDF would like to make their ratio better, Hamas is doing everything it can to make both ratios worse.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:13 AM on July 24, 2014


At what point do actions speak louder than words?
posted by ODiV at 9:22 AM on July 24, 2014


Firing tank shells into designated shelters is a strange way to make the ratio better.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:23 AM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


My saddest photo yet. From #ISS we can actually see explosions and rockets flying over #Gaza & #Israel - Alexander Gerst
posted by ODiV at 9:24 AM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


If the IDF doesn't mean to kill civilians then they are the most incompetent organization ever.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:27 AM on July 24, 2014 [4 favorites]




From #ISS we can actually see explosions and rockets flying over #Gaza & #Israel

That really puts your head in a big picture place. Puts me in my teenaged Scifi fan's brain.
posted by Trochanter at 9:49 AM on July 24, 2014


there's currently a 10:1 kill rate of IDF to Israeli civilians...

The reason for that is primarily bomb shelters + Iron Dome. The ratio is that low despite the murderous intent of the attacks.
posted by rosswald at 9:50 AM on July 24, 2014


You can't prove intent.

Intent doesn't matter.

What matters is dead people.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:53 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


'The reason for that is primarily bomb shelters + Iron Dome. The ratio is that low despite the murderous intent of the attacks'

Since you bring up 'intent', my understanding is that the rockets are due to the failure of the Israeli Government to follow through on their agreements in the November 2012 cease-fire.

Therefore, if the Israeli Government didn't want rockets from Gaza, they could have simply followed through -- in good faith -- in their commitments from then instead of, as I understand, violating it less than two weeks later?

What was, do you think, the Israeli Government's intent in not negotiating in good-faith, and given that, why should they be expected to do any differently going forwards?
posted by mikelieman at 9:57 AM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't mean to sound cavalier, but I kinda wish that had been a video from the ISS. Space!
posted by lullaby at 10:02 AM on July 24, 2014


LEO is overrated. GEO is where all the fun is...
posted by mikelieman at 10:05 AM on July 24, 2014


the rockets are due to the failure of the Israeli Government to follow through on their agreements in the November 2012 cease-fire

Violations of the truce
posted by rosswald at 10:09 AM on July 24, 2014


Puts me in my teenaged Scifi fan's brain.

By that I meant that in those days -- the way Scifi was -- was that we were going to move beyond all this shit. Like, excelsior.
posted by Trochanter at 10:10 AM on July 24, 2014


Gaza, Ukraine and antisocial media

(Google the title to unblock the article)
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:26 AM on July 24, 2014


According to which legal framework?

as if there's anything like a legal framework operating in that part of the world now
posted by pyramid termite at 10:41 AM on July 24, 2014


The wikipedia article linked by rosswald is interesting but somewhat misleading as the graph they show only shows Palestinian violations of the ceasefire. Luckily it's Wikipedia, so checking the sources of the data leads to much clearer information and provides context.

This page (used as a source from the wikipedia article) contains this chart, which shows what amounts to a timeline of both sides violations of the ceasefire from November 2012 that occurred because of those violations. Interestingly, at the end of the linked page they discuss the media dynamics behind the violations. It's not surprising rosswald and others have the impression that Israel is always responding to Palestinian violations, because that's how it's been covered in the media even though it's usually not the case.

They also link to some interesting reports from a Geneva-based NGO called Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre. One of them really does help explain why Gaza is often referred to as an open air prison by outlining the "arbitrary" Access Restricted Areas imposed by the IDF on Gaza since 2006. Some key quotes:
Between 2006 and May 2013, 539 Israeli military incursions into ARA on land were documented, resulting in the detention of 150 Palestinians. During the same time period, 544 shooting incidents were recorded, resulting in at least 179 civilian deaths and 751 injuries. In the past two years, there have been an average of around seven incursions each month...

Around 85 per cent of the maritime areas authorised under the Oslo Accords are off-limits to the Palestinian fishing fleet, resulting in an estimated loss of 75 per cent in monthly catch during sardine season and a 65 per cent rise in unemployment among fishermen since 2000.


In Beit Hanoun, a community where 85 per cent of residents are farmers, 93 per cent of participants said they had been unable to access their land in 2012 because of the Israeli military’s use of live ammunition. Between 1997 and 30 November 2013, there were also 522 documented shooting incidents targeting fishermen at sea, resulting in nine civilian deaths, 47 injuries and 422 detentions...

The report found Israel’s use of lethal force before ex- hausting other non-lethal means of engagement to be in violation of international human rights law and standards. This is particularly alarming in light of Israel’s capacity to implement non-lethal measures of law enforcement in Gaza, as highlighted by its frequent incursions into ARA on land. On the basis of a legal precedent set by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY), the manner in which the Israeli military has used live ammunition in ARA could constitute grounds for investigation under international law. Reckless disregard for the protection of civilian life that results in the wilful killing or serious injury of non-combatants, particularly during periods of relative calm outside military operations, can amount to a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
posted by cell divide at 10:49 AM on July 24, 2014 [11 favorites]










Golden Eternity: that's been cropping up on my word-related Twitter feed. Also apparently #Qalandia. So far I can't find any news articles about it though.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:49 PM on July 24, 2014





Israel's attack on Gaza is revenge for the Palestinians' refusal to accept occupation: Say what you will about Hamas' rocket fire, at least they managed to scratch the surface of Israel's faith in the normalcy of its domination of another people.

There is method in madness, and the Israeli insanity, which refuses to grasp the extent of its revenge in Gaza, has very good reasons for being the way it is. The entire nation is the army, the army is the nation, and both are represented by a Jewish-democratic government and a loyal press, and the four of them work together to stave off the great betrayal: the Palestinians’ refusal to recognize the normalcy of the situation.

The Palestinians are disobedient. They refuse to adapt. This is after we thought it was working for us, with VIP treatment for a few of them and an opportunity for swollen bank accounts for some, and with enormous donations from the United States and Europe that nurture the pockets of imaginary Palestinian rule.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 1:51 PM on July 24, 2014


UNRWA officials now report that the school in Beit Hanoun was actually hit by a Hamas rocket, although the IDF says that one of its mortar shells went off course and may have hit the school; the initial reports did say that the school was hit multiple times, so who knows.

This is very different from the last war, when a highly-publicised tragedy (the death of a BBC reporter's child due to another Hamas misfire) was also initially blamed on Israel, and the truth was not confirmed until the report of a UN inquiry, held a year later.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:53 PM on July 24, 2014


Link? I'm still finding mostly articles that say the opposite.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:56 PM on July 24, 2014


‏@RichardEngel
School hit was a designated shelter. UNRWA says it formally conveyed its location to Israeli forces 12 times, including at 10:56AM tdy.

(emphasis mine)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:10 PM on July 24, 2014




UN shelter in Gaza 'struck by Israeli shells': Gaza health ministry says bombardment killed at least 15 people and injured 200 in a UN-run school in Beit Hanoun.

An Israeli military source however told Al Jazeera that Palestinian rocket fire had been detected in the area and that it might have fallen short and hit the shelter.

Al Jazeera's correspondent Stefanie Dekker said that she was unable to reach the school after the attack due to heavy Israeli shelling. No one she had spoken to in Gaza believed the deaths were caused by a Palestinian rocket.

In an interview with Al Jazeera, Chris Gunness, the spokesman for UNRWA, the UN's humanitarian organisation in Gaza, said his organisation had been in contact with Israeli forces as fighting closed in on the shelter.
"We gave the Israelis the precise GPS coordinates of the Beit Hanoun shelter. We were trying to coordinate a window [for evacuation] and that was never granted," he said.

He said he could neither confirm nor deny that Hamas fighters were near the building, but said Israel and Hamas "must respect the inviolability of UN premises, and humanitarian law".

He called the attack "tragic and appalling".

Robert Turner, the director for UNRWA told Al Jazeera there was no warning from the Israelis before the shells landed.

"This is a designated emergency shelter. The location was conveyed to the Israelis," he said. "This was an installation we were managing, that was monitored [to ensure] that our neutrality was maintained."

"We always call on all parties to ensure that civilians are not harmed."

Israel has attacked UN schools before, saying that they were being used as safe havens for the armed Palestinians.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:12 PM on July 24, 2014


Also from Richard Engel: "UNRWA says it has "no evidence to suggest that" school was used by militants as human shields"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:14 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]




Gaza crisis: UN claims Israel did not allow evacuation from shelter before strikes - live



"The Guardian's Harriet Sherwood (@harrietsherwood) in Jerusalem writes about the assertion of the Israeli army that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. "The picture is more complicated than either side claims," Harriet writes:

Deliberately placing non-combatants in and around targets to deter enemy attack – the definition of human shields – is illegal under international law.

The Geneva conventions state: "The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations."

International law also bans the use of medical units or prisoners of war to deter enemy attack.

However, even if Hamas were violating the law on this matter, it would not legally justify Israel's bombing of areas where civilians are known to be."

Read the full piece here.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:15 PM on July 24, 2014


I'm waiting for the justifications: its ok Israel killed those kids because they didn't mean it, but if Hamas did it they meant to kill the kids so then its not ok.

Either way its dead kids.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:16 PM on July 24, 2014 [5 favorites]


it would not legally justify Israel's bombing of areas where civilians are known to be.

As in the entirety of Gaza. They have been doing this for weeks now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:16 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


This is just so fucking sad.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:19 PM on July 24, 2014




According to this guy, the Israelis are firing live ammo and have killed two people at the big Qalandya demonstration.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:21 PM on July 24, 2014


I've been more sympathetic to Israel than a lot of people here (though obviously less so than certain hardcore apologists) but I gotta say Israel appears to be doing its best to alienate basically everybody with even the smallest willingness to consider that Israel might not always be 100% in the right in every way. I mean, jesus, there are ways to handle Hamas hiding rockets near UN shelters without blowing the fuck out of the shelter.
posted by Justinian at 2:21 PM on July 24, 2014


There's the Times of Israel live blog, but I can't seem to link to the section so you have to scroll. Chris Gunness' Twitter feed reports that Hamas rockets were falling in Beit Hanoun, although he doesn't say they hit the school. The Elder of Ziyon blog has a round-up.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:21 PM on July 24, 2014




Yeah, and the Russians say Ukraine shot down the passenger jet.
posted by Justinian at 2:24 PM on July 24, 2014 [6 favorites]


We could just wait until some actual information (e.g., photos of the shrapnel or ordnance) is available, but I suppose a rocket misfire nearby is as likely to affect a whole bank as a single rocket. The IDF says that one of its shells went off course, not five of them. Alternatively, it's even possible that it was a deliberate strike by Hamas: there's not much of a jump from the use of suicide bombers and human shields to the use of manufactured tragedies.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:31 PM on July 24, 2014


And what if it isn't Hamas' responsibility? Would it be justified? Would it be unintentional killing of civilians? Just want to know where the goalposts are.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:34 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


UNRWA chief: this is 4th time in 4 days one of our schools has been hit. The other 3 times we r virtually certain it was Israeli fire
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:35 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Dimi Reider ‏@dimireider 43m
Breaking - two protesters shot dead at mass protest against war in #Gaza at Qalandia checkpoint, up to 30k strong.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:36 PM on July 24, 2014


It could have been a meteor too, Joe in Australia. Or maybe swamp gas.
posted by Justinian at 2:36 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Apparently #48kmarch is the hashtag for the West Bank demonstration. The plan, apparently, seems to be to march from Qalandya (where the IDF seems to be shooting Palestinians) to Jerusalem (where there are also clashes).

(This is all insta-reporting from what I can gather from Twitter, so take it with a grain of salt.)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:39 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


MisantropicPainforest: Morality is about decisions you make or should make. I don't think it makes sense to discuss justifiability for unintentional acts, although you can certainly ask whether the act was careless or reckless.

Justinian: everybody agrees that Hamas was firing rockets nearby, and earlier reports indicate that about a third of their rockets are misfires. There were no reports of swamp gas in the vicinity.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:44 PM on July 24, 2014


I'm not saying there's a 0% it was Hamas; I think they're perfectly willing to do something like that. But under the circumstances I don't think this is a case of "hey, who can say what happened? Coulda been anything."
posted by Justinian at 2:47 PM on July 24, 2014


I was in Ramallah earlier today (about 6 hours ago) after visiting Rawabi. Everything was very calm, tons of people out in the streets after work shopping for the upcoming Eid (end of Ramadan). A decent number of foreigners (American and Euro) milling around, checking out the scene in downtown. We all remarked on how calm the West Bank has been through all of this and how we hoped it would stay that way.
posted by cell divide at 2:50 PM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


The only live stream I can find covering the breaking news is this channel. Does anyone know of any English-language broadcasts that can be livestreamed covering this? (AJE isn't available in America and AJA doesn't live stream, so far as I know.)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:53 PM on July 24, 2014


from the Permanent Observer Mission of the State of Palestine to the United Nations
24 July 2014 – Israeli Attack on UNRWA School in Beit Hanoun

Today, Israel, the occupying Power, proved yet again its absolute disregard for human life and the rules of international humanitarian law intended to prevent such military assaults against civilians. Once again, the Israeli occupying forces have targeted an UNRWA school, causing more death and injury among already-traumatized civilians, displaced from their homes and sheltering in the school, including many who were demanded by the occupying Power in earlier days to leave their residential areas. Here, it is imperative to recall that during Israel’s 2008-9 war on Gaza, Israeli tanks shelled an area outside an UNRWA school in Jabaliya refugee camp, killing 42 people and injuring dozens, a crime in which the occupying Power deliberately targeted areas and buildings housing the largest number of civilians, but for which Israel has never been held accountable.

Witnesses have reported that Israeli artillery shelling hit the school in Beit Hanoun in broad daylight. This attack on a clearly marked UN installation, for which the occupying Power had the exact coordinates and information that the school was sheltering civilians, resulted in the killing of at least 17 Palestinians and the injury of more than 200 people who were among the displaced persons sheltering there. This is the fourth time in two days that Israeli occupying forces have bombed schools serving as shelters in the besieged Gaza Strip, including the firing on a girl’s school in the Maghazi refugee camp, where hundreds of displaced Palestinians had been sheltering. In this regard, at the writing of this letter, more than 148,000 Palestinians are sheltering in UNRWA schools in Gaza, seeking safety from Israel’s military onslaught and suffering dire humanitarian circumstances.

We strongly condemn Israel’s attack on the UNRWA school in Beit Hanoun and the killing of innocent civilians, who believed that they and their children would be safe under the UN flag. We demand an immediate, impartial and thorough investigation into this grave incident in order to establish accountability and bring the perpetrators of this crime to justice. Such grave breaches of international humanitarian law and such gross violations of the inviolability of UN premises must not remain unpunished.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:53 PM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


Report on the protest from Ma'an
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:58 PM on July 24, 2014


Oh, right, looks like we ought to wait to hear what the IDF says or what enlightening remarks the anonymous commentator behind "Elder of Zion" has to add.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:59 PM on July 24, 2014


Shame the Hamas rockets don't have the "pinpoint precision" that the IDF missiles do.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 3:00 PM on July 24, 2014


Gallup poll of Americans' opinion of Israel's actions during the current conflict.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:09 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Gallup poll of Americans' opinion of Israel's actions during the current conflict.

So the people who think Israel's actions are justified are old white men, and the people opposed are the young, non-whites, and women. Gee - such a strange and common type of division in American politics, I wonder what comments one might make regarding it.
posted by crayz at 3:17 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


My name is Elizabeth, I am from Israel and #IStandForGaza. All humans deserve freedom and dignity.
posted by crayz at 3:23 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Justinian, given that UNRWA itself says that Hamas rockets were falling in the area; that Hamas has actually been storing rockets inside UNRWA schools; that these rockets very frequently misfire; and that the IDF says only that a single Israeli shell went off course; why would you not presume that Hamas was responsible? If the IDF wanted to bomb schools it could do so on all occasions, and it seems an odd coincidence that it would choose to attack refugees in a UNRWA compound specifically when Hamas' rockets are falling nearby.

Here's a theory that explains all the evidence: Hamas has a rocket site near the school - which is an acknowledged fact. An IDF mortar hits it, deliberately or accidentally. The rockets go off, as they often do when this happens, and some hit the adjacent school. No weird coincidences necessary.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:32 PM on July 24, 2014


RULE #1 OF FIREARM SAFETY: Treat Every Gun As If It's Loaded.

When you drop a bomb on people, you are responsible for the deaths. Period. Don't want to kill innocent civilians? Don't drop bombs on them. Easy peasy. Since the Government of Israel is not following this one simple rule, 'accident' doesn't cover it.
posted by mikelieman at 3:33 PM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


Are you working off of this list, joe?

1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we will check into it
2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bomb
3. Ok we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. Ok they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. Ok there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose
6. Ok we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
posted by klue at 3:35 PM on July 24, 2014 [21 favorites]


"Justinian, given that UNRWA itself says that Hamas rockets were falling in the area; that Hamas has actually been storing rockets inside UNRWA schools; that these rockets very frequently misfire; and that the IDF says only that a single Israeli shell went off course; why would you not presume that Hamas was responsible? If the IDF wanted to bomb schools it could do so on all occasions, and it seems an odd coincidence that it would choose to attack refugees in a UNRWA compound specifically when Hamas' rockets are falling nearby.

Here's a theory that explains all the evidence: Hamas has a rocket site near the school - which is an acknowledged fact. An IDF mortar hits it, deliberately or accidentally. The rockets go off, as they often do when this happens, and some hit the adjacent school. No weird coincidences necessary."

Beggars belief. Utterly shameful and speculative. We'll see, Joe. Shame I'm not a betting man. The next few days will show that the IDF bombed the site and will say whatever they can to try and wrangle out of it.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 3:46 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]




"Identifying Israel with Jewry obscures the existence of the small but important post-Zionist movement in Israel, including the philosophers Adi Ophir and Anat Biletzki, the sociologist Uri Ram, the professor of theatre Avraham Oz and the poet Yitzhak Laor. Are we to say that Israelis who are critical of Israeli policy are self-hating Jews, or insensitive to the ways in which criticism may fan the flames of anti-semitism? What of the new Brit Tzedek organisation in the US, numbering close to 20,000 members at the last count, which seeks to offer a critical alternative to the American Israel Political Action Committee, opposing the current occupation and working for a two-state solution? What of Jewish Voices for Peace, Jews against the Occupation, Jews for Peace in the Middle East, the Faculty for Israeli-Palestinian Peace, Tikkun, Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, Women in Black or, indeed, Neve Shalom-Wahat al-Salam, the only village collectively governed by both Jews and Arabs in the state of Israel? What do we make of B’Tselem, the Israeli organisation that monitors human rights abuses in the West Bank and Gaza, or Gush Shalom, an Israeli organisation opposing the occupation, or Yesh Gvul, which represents the Israeli soldiers who refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories? And what of Ta’ayush, a Jewish-Arab coalition against policies that lead to isolation, poor medical care, house arrest, the destruction of educational institutions, and lack of water and food for Palestinians?

It will not do to equate Jews with Zionists or Jewishness with Zionism. There were debates among Jews throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries as to whether Zionism ought to become the basis of a state, whether the Jews had any right to lay claim to land inhabited by Palestinians for centuries, and as to the future for a Jewish political project based on a violent expropriation of land. There were those who sought to make Zionism compatible with peaceful co-existence with Arabs, and those who used it as an excuse for military aggression, and continue to do so. There were those who thought, and still think, that Zionism is not a legitimate basis for a democratic state in a situation where a diverse population must be assumed to practise different religions, and that no group ought to be excluded from any right accorded to citizens in general on the basis of their ethnic or religious views. And there are those who maintain that the violent appropriation of Palestinian land, and the dislocation of 700,000 Palestinians, was an unsuitable foundation on which to build a state. Yet Israel is now repeating its founding gesture in the containment and dehumanisation of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. Indeed, the wall now being built threatens to leave 95,000 Palestinians homeless. These are questions about Zionism that should and must be asked in a public domain, and universities are surely one place where we might expect critical reflections on Zionism to take place. Instead, we are being asked, by Summers and others, to treat any critical approach to Zionism as effective anti-semitism and, hence, to rule it out as a topic for legitimate disagreement.

Many important distinctions are elided by the mainstream press when it assumes that there are only two possible positions on the Middle East, the ‘pro-Israel’ and the ‘pro-Palestinian’. The assumption is that these are discrete views, internally homogeneous, non-overlapping, that if one is ‘pro-Israel’ then anything Israel does is all right, or if ‘pro-Palestinian’ then anything Palestinians do is all right. But few people’s political views occupy such extremes. One can, for instance, be in favour of Palestinian self-determination, but condemn suicide bombings, and find others who share both those views but differ on the form self-determination ought to take. One can be in favour of Israel’s right to exist, but still ask what is the most legitimate and democratic form that existence ought to take. If one questions the present form, is one anti-Israel? If one holds out for a truly democratic Israel-Palestine, is one anti-Israel? Or is one trying to find a better form for this polity, one that may well involve any number of possibilities: a revised version of Zionism, a post-Zionist Israel, a self-determining Palestine, or an amalgamation of Israel into a greater Israel-Palestine where all racially and religiously based qualifications on rights and entitlements would be eliminated?"

Judith Butler, No, it’s not anti-semitic
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 4:06 PM on July 24, 2014 [5 favorites]


"The Israeli military on Wednesday completely bombed the al-Wafa rehabilitation and geriatric hospital in the eastern Gaza City neighborhood of Shujaiya, after weeks of missile strikes, threats and forced evacuation of the patients, caregivers and hospital staff.

Israeli daily Haaretz reported that the Israeli military claimed the hospital buildings were “being used as a Hamas command center and rocket-launching site.” However, the hospital director, Dr. Basman Alashi, says that Israel has targeted the hospital based on false and misleading claims.

Activists with the International Solidarity Movement, who have been working closely with al-Wafa hospital staff and who attempted to prevent Israel from shelling the hospital two weeks ago, stated in a press release on Wednesday (including the photo below) that:

On the 21 July at 2:17 PM, the IDF spokesperson released an image on twitter showing an aerial picture of a building marked as “Al-Wafa” hospital. In the image there is a red circle, which they designated as the location from which an M75 rocket was launched.

The building in the picture marked “Al-Wafa” hospital is in fact not the el-Wafa hospital but the Right to Life Society.​"

Israel used fabricated images to justify bombing al-Wafa hospital
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 4:11 PM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


800 people killed, over 5000 injured. That's the latest death toll
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:18 PM on July 24, 2014


"800 people killed, over 5000 injured. That's the latest death toll"

Indeed, and mostly civilians.

In advance of the "those are Hamas numbers", which we've heard before:Palestinian Civilians Make Up Three-Quarters Of The Dead In Gaza

"The truth, however, is more complex than how the Times of Israel lays it out. The numbers the United Nations provides do come at least partially from the Gaza Health Ministry. But UNOCHA is composed of several humanitarian agencies working together in what are called “clusters” — groupings according to the function each organization serves. According to a footnote on the death toll in OCHA’s report, data “on fatalities and destruction of property is consolidated by the Protection and Shelter clusters based on preliminary information, and is subject to change based on further verifications.” Those clusters in Gaza include the Norwegian Refugee Council and UN’s Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.

As for the Gaza Health Ministry itself, it is incorrect to say that is “Hamas-run.” Earlier this year, Hamas and the more moderate Fatah party reconciled after years of outright civil war, forming a “unity government” composed of technocrats instead of politicians. While for years Hamas did run the Health Ministry in the Gaza Strip, with the formation of the new government the West Bank’s Health Minister Jawad Awad took over for both portions of Palestinian territory. Unfortunately, Gazans aren’t exactly fans of their Health Minister. Last week, Awad entered Gaza through the border crossing with Egypt, where he was met with protesters throwing eggs and shoes at his car, according to the Maan newservice. "
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 4:34 PM on July 24, 2014


I guess I understand why people try to deny that most of the dead are innocent civilians. But no-one should be surprised; the vast majority of the dead in armed combat are almost always civilians. What fraction of the dead in Iraq were civilians? 90%? More?

That's why you don't fight unless it's necessary. Because the innocent dead will virtually always outnumber the guilty. It's always been that way. Whether or not it is necessary for Israel to be doing this despite that fact is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by Justinian at 4:41 PM on July 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


From the Jerusalem Post, far-right fundamentalist rabbi Dov Lior (who has a long history of spewing racist garbage but nonetheless has a significant following in Israel), is at it again:

Rabbi Dov Lior, a national- religious leader and the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba and Hebron, published a letter on Monday saying that Jewish law permits destroying the entire Gaza Strip to bring peace to the south of the country...

He first cited the opinion of the Maharal of Prague, a renowned 16th-century rabbi, who wrote that a nation under attack can wage a fierce war against the assaulting nation, and that it is not obligated regarding the safety of people who are personally involved in hostilities.

“At a time of war, the nation under attack is allowed to punish the enemy population with measures it finds suitable, such as blocking supplies or electricity, as well as shelling the entire area according to the army minister’s judgment, and not to needlessly endanger soldiers but rather to take crushing deterring steps to exterminate the enemy,” Lior wrote.

Addressing the hostilities with Hamas, the rabbi continued to say that “in the case of Gaza, it would be permitted for the defense minister to even order the destruction of all of Gaza so that the South will no longer suffer...


Be sure to scroll down for the response from the secular Meretz party chair; she pulls no punches.
posted by mediareport at 4:49 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Because the innocent dead will virtually always outnumber the guilty. It's always been that way.

That's actually a pretty recent development, historically speaking. Back in the day when there were actually militaries fighting each other, the majority of casualties occurred on the battlefield (and not GWB's global battlefield but an actual place where people were fighting outside of a populated area). But ever since, say, the Vietnam War, wars have increasingly taken a more counterinsurgency style of combat, which results in a higher proportion of civilian casualties -- both because it is difficult to distinguish between combatant and civilian and because the fighting occurs in populated areas.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:52 PM on July 24, 2014


NPB: It depends on what you count as civilian deaths due to warfare. Sieges, for example, would often result in large numbers of civilians either starving to death or being killed by razing the city if it refused to surrender. Large swaths of the populace would often starve to death or die of sickness during wartime. And so on. But, yeah, not by direct but unintended fire like today. The discussion about what counts as a civilian death due to armed combat is kinda off topic so I'm happy to say "in modern times" instead of "always" to avoid the issue. Certainly further back than Vietnam, though, look at WWI and WWII for instance.
posted by Justinian at 4:58 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


The point being that when a modern military attacks a densely populated area like Gaza there are going to be tons of civilians deaths even if they do everything they can to limit those civilian deaths (which Israel may or may not be attempting to limit). So arguing over whether its 70% or 80% civilians is pointless. It's a LOT and it shouldn't be surprising.
posted by Justinian at 5:01 PM on July 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Military deaths actually did outnumber civilian deaths in WW1 (according to Wikipedia at least) but, yes, I take your point that I was making a very general statement and the specifics certainly could be argued.

/derail
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:04 PM on July 24, 2014


Not to mention that the victor would probably put non-combatant males to the sword and enslave the rest. War always and forever sucks.
posted by Trochanter at 5:06 PM on July 24, 2014


(barely manages to stifle arguing with NPB)

Be good justinian... be good...
posted by Justinian at 5:37 PM on July 24, 2014


My saddest photo yet. From #ISS we can actually see explosions and rockets flying over #Gaza & #Israel - Alexander Gerst

I'm pretty sure he can't. I suppose there may have been a visible explosion at the moment he was watching, but a ballistic rocket's flare is pretty small and isn't directed upwards. The Times of Israel actually overlaid the photo with place markers, and you can see that Gaza isn't really lit up.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:01 PM on July 24, 2014


From the Lancet, arguably the most well-respected medical journal:

An open letter for the people in Gaza:

"According to Gaza Ministry of Health and UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA),1 as of July 21, 149 of the 558 killed in Gaza and 1100 of the 3504 wounded are children. Those buried under the rubble are not counted yet. As we write, the BBC reports of the bombing of another hospital, hitting the intensive care unit and operating theatres, with deaths of patients and staff. There are now fears for the main hospital Al Shifa. Moreover, most people are psychologically traumatised in Gaza. Anyone older than 6 years has already lived through their third military assault by Israel.

The massacre in Gaza spares no one, and includes the disabled and sick in hospitals, children playing on the beach or on the roof top, with a large majority of non-combatants. Hospitals, clinics, ambulances, mosques, schools, and press buildings have all been attacked, with thousands of private homes bombed, clearly directing fire to target whole families killing them within their homes, depriving families of their homes by chasing them out a few minutes before destruction. An entire area was destroyed on July 20, leaving thousands of displaced people homeless, beside wounding hundreds and killing at least 70—this is way beyond the purpose of finding tunnels. None of these are military objectives. These attacks aim to terrorise, wound the soul and the body of the people, and make their life impossible in the future, as well as also demolishing their homes and prohibiting the means to rebuild.

Weaponry known to cause long-term damages on health of the whole population are used; particularly non fragmentation weaponry and hard-head bombs.4, 5 We witnessed targeted weaponry used indiscriminately and on children and we constantly see that so-called intelligent weapons fail to be precise, unless they are deliberately used to destroy innocent lives.

We denounce the myth propagated by Israel that the aggression is done caring about saving civilian lives and children's wellbeing.

Israel's behaviour has insulted our humanity, intelligence, and dignity as well as our professional ethics and efforts. Even those of us who want to go and help are unable to reach Gaza due to the blockade.

This “defensive aggression” of unlimited duration, extent, and intensity must be stopped."
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:30 PM on July 24, 2014 [6 favorites]


The IDF says that one of its shells went off course, not five of them.
"We only meant to shell the school four times."
posted by Flunkie at 7:14 PM on July 24, 2014


How Raw Data Can Explain A Big Part Of The Current Gaza Conflict

Data from the last Gaza war implied approximately a 1:1 ratio of civilian to military deaths. The figures in the article above actually imply that fewer civilians than fighters have been killed, but they come from an earlier stage of the war and I suppose things may have changed.

There are three problems with the data I have seen so far: 1) Lots of "unidentified" casualties, which are conservatively counted as civilian deaths; 2) lots of double counting, where the same person appears to be listed two or three times; 3) all the data comes from Hamas. Even the figures that have been described as being "UN" really do come from Hamas, they have just passed through the UN's hands. But in any event, the ratio is way, way lower than the 75% - civilian that keeps getting reported.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:40 PM on July 24, 2014


MAX HASTINGS: I've always loved Israel but this brutality breaks my heart
Israel’s tragedy is that the only democracy in the Middle East has fallen prey to a succession of Right-wing governments, which derive much of their electoral strength from Russian emigres and extremist religious parties.

A historian friend, himself a Jew and an uncommonly astute observer of the world, said to me a while back: ‘Consciously or unconsciously, Israel has decided that it prefers a state of permanent war to making the concessions to the Palestinians that would be indispensable to any chance of peace.’

... since the assassination of prime minister Yitzhak Rabin by a Jewish fanatic back in 1995, no Jerusalem government has pursued a serious political strategy for peace.

The security forces have simply been left to impose varying degrees of repression, while Jewish settlers grab ever-larger areas of the West Bank and Jerusalem. In a remarkable moment of frankness, one former Shin Bet chief said: ‘Occupation has made us a cruel people.’ 

... ‘I have sometimes wondered over the past few years whether this irresistible military mesmerism hasn’t clouded for us some of the political falsities.’ (Cameron)

Some 40 years on, I have become sure that Jimmy Cameron was right. Too many of us allowed ourselves to become blinded by military success to the huge injustice done to the Palestinians.
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:24 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]




Data from the last Gaza war implied approximately a 1:1 ratio of civilian to military deaths. The figures in the article above actually imply that fewer civilians than fighters have been killed, but they come from an earlier stage of the war and I suppose things may have changed.

There are three problems with the data I have seen so far: 1) Lots of "unidentified" casualties, which are conservatively counted as civilian deaths; 2) lots of double counting, where the same person appears to be listed two or three times; 3) all the data comes from Hamas. Even the figures that have been described as being "UN" really do come from Hamas, they have just passed through the UN's hands. But in any event, the ratio is way, way lower than the 75% - civilian that keeps getting reported


All this caviling helps obscure the fact that even if you assume that the Palestinian' civilian casualty count overestimates the death toll by a factor of ten, only two Israeli civilians have been killed. What's that ratio Joe?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:31 AM on July 25, 2014


Joe in Australia: The figures in the article above actually imply that fewer civilians than fighters have been killed, but they come from an earlier stage of the war and I suppose things may have changed.

"Which means that of those killed, the number of males of military age is much higher than expected if Israel was killing indiscriminately, and it certainly throws the UN figure of a 75% civilian death rate into question. If 75% of those killed were civilians, a more even demographic figure among the dead would be expected."

That article isn't worth the pixels it's printed on. Assuming that all or even most of the dead with masculine names between 17 and 45 are fighters is ridiculous. And for Israel's part, they would consider someone standing outside their recently destroyed house throwing stones at tanks to be a terrorist not worthy of life.
posted by gman at 5:38 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


What's that ratio Joe?

So you're upset the rockets haven't killed more people? That Israel hasn't invited Palestinian fighters into their towns and cities to shoot the place up as a gesture of fair play? This is war, not a game. The rockets stop, the tanks and planes stop, not before, and Israel will continue to ramp up their military activity until that goal has been reached.

Maybe if Hamas can't protect their citizens and inflict comparable casualties on their enemies, they shouldn't start wars, and perhaps bring this one to a swift close?

Actually, it's too late for that. The only way Israel calls off the dogs is if Gaza is completely demilitarized, with heavy repercussions for violations of disarmament all but inevitable. What a shit position Hamas has put Gaza in..
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:51 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


What a brutal little thug that continually headbutts those nice policemen's fists!
posted by Grangousier at 5:54 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


Associated Press - Hamas Tunnel Threat At Center of War with Israel
posted by rosswald at 5:56 AM on July 25, 2014


So you're upset the rockets haven't killed more people? That Israel hasn't invited Palestinian fighters into their towns and cities to shoot the place up as a gesture of fair play?

This is absolutely a disgusting thing to say. Please don't do that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:59 AM on July 25, 2014 [10 favorites]


War is hell but I'm glad the Geneva conventions exist. Not that they are followed much but because they provide a clear and reasonable framework when discussing any parties actions in war. Also the people who want to ignore them are 99% of the time horrible people, just partisans really, who shouldn't be taken seriously in a debate.

I wonder what the conventions have to say about proportionality?
posted by chaz at 6:07 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


Proportionality, as defined in the Fourth Geneva Convention and the has nothing to do with casualty ratios, as even a casual perusal of the topic reveals. More, we have nearby examples in Syria and Iraq/IS of "clearly excessive" disproportional military actions primarily affecting civilians. Israel's level of engagement is not anywhere near there, nor is it likely to escalate to that level. It's pretty rough in Gaza right now, absolutely, and it needs to stop, but it's not like Belgium in WWI.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:28 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


"Three Palestinians were killed in the occupied West Bank on Friday in shootings involving both Israeli forces and a civilian who appeared to be a Jewish settler, medics and witnesses said.
Witnesses said the person believed to be a settler shot dead one man and wounded three others near the city of Nablus as a protest against the ongoing conflict in Gaza. The victims were walking along a main street used by both Palestinian and settlers."

Source: Reuters
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:47 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]




Assuming that all or even most of the dead with masculine names between 17 and 45 are fighters is ridiculous.

Can Palestinian Men be Victims? Gendering Israel's War on Gaza
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:53 AM on July 25, 2014


What British Jews really think about the Gaza conflict
It suits a variety of agendas to claim that British Jews are largely united in support for Israel during this current round of conflict. Israelis and those who approve of Israel’s actions find succour in this supposed homogeneity. Conversely, Palestinians and those who support them outside the region point to what they regard as the heroic minority of Jews who share their views and in doing so hope to forestall accusations of antisemitism.
...
It certainly frustrates some Jews who are critical of Israel when the diversity that has emerged in quieter times seems to collapse back into solidarity for Israel during times of conflict. But there are good reasons why even those Jews who have no love for the current Israeli government are finding it hard to oppose at the moment. One factor is that while the Hamas-Israel conflict is still asymmetric, it is less asymmetric than previous rounds: Hamas has more and better missiles. These missiles are causing deep fear and suffering in Israel – not of course on the same level of suffering that is happening in Gaza, but still very real – and in a community where over 90% have visited Israel it’s easy to empathise with Israelis under fire.

Another factor is the upsurge of violent antisemitism in France and elsewhere in Europe, linked to Gaza-related protests. Although the situation in the UK is less severe, the perceived lack of seriousness with which the Palestinian solidarity movement has responded to these outbreaks hardly helps to create a situation conducive to Jewish empathy with the Palestinians.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:36 AM on July 25, 2014


Given the demonstrated bad-faith of the Israeli government, I consider pretty much everything negative I hear about the Palestinian solidarity movement to simply the crazy tail-end of any normal graph, but run through the lens of PsyOps and propaganda, and consequently best disregarded -- but of course, I'm a cynical New York Jew.
posted by mikelieman at 9:39 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


WaPo: Israel must be permitted to crush Hamas (by a former Israeli ambassador to the US)

Mondoweiss: Photo: Message on Israeli shell headed to Gaza, ‘Thats for canceling the Backstreet Boys, you scum!’

Haaretz: Tel Aviv’s young internationals struggle to keep the party going ("It’s difficult to go out and party after you hear that soldiers have died")

PBS: debate on tactics and ethics of the current crisis between Jadaliyya Co-Editor Noura Erakat of George Mason University and Amos Guiora of the University of Utah

Haaretz: Kerry's "cease fire" proposal allows Israel to continue operations in Gaza (Max's headline)

A video of a Hamas projectile striking Israeli soil (via Angry Arab News Service)

Democracy Now today:

Sharif Abdel Kouddous: In Gaza, Unrelenting Israeli Assault Causes "Grave Humanitarian Crisis"

"No Safe Place": After Deadly Attack on Gaza School, U.N. Warns 150,000 Seeking Shelter are at Risk

Turning Point? Largest West Bank Protest in Decades Raises Spectre of a 3rd Intifada

Doctor: After "Losing Everything," Gazans Cling to Hope That Conflict Will End Crippling Siege
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:45 AM on July 25, 2014 [4 favorites]


"As the emergency department of the al-Shifa hospital becomes increasingly overcrowded, a steady stream of pregnant Palestinian women is arriving in a building tucked behind the main hospital. Receiving between 25 to 50 women per day they are now having to redirect medical supplies to the intensive care unit.

Among the women is 28-year-old Hanan al-Mahessn. On the second day of the air strikes, her neighbour's home was hit and destroyed. "I started to feel sick. Then the bleeding started," she told Al Jazeera. Hanan was rushed to the hospital and lost three pints of blood. After going into surgery, her baby was delivered, but had died in the womb. The doctors made the decision to tell her that her little girl was in a special care unit as they felt she was too ill to receive the news. A day later she learnt the truth.

"My children are used to this war. They have grown up with the sound of bombs," said Mariam Guneed, 39, a mother of eight. "We must have many children here, because we lose so many in the wars," Mariam reflects as she returns to her room to sit and await the birth of her ninth child.

Less than a few kilometres from Shifa is the al-Awda hospital in the Jabalaya refugee camp of Gaza, one of the poorest areas of the city. At just 30 minutes old Nisreen has been born into a country under siege. The sounds of Israeli drones and bombardments can be heard above and the all too familiar whoosh of a Hamas rocket breaks the silence of the city. In a few days time, she will leave the hospital with her mother into an area which has suffered a large number of Israeli air strikes.

"Sometimes the women just don't want to leave. They know they are safe here. We don't turn them away, we keep them as long as they want to stay," hospital director Dr Yousef Soueti said."
In Pictures: Childbirth under Israeli attack: The emergency department of Gaza's al-Shifa hospital takes in between 25-50 pregnant women per day.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:07 AM on July 25, 2014 [2 favorites]




"What has been happening in Gaza cannot usefully be described as "warfare". The daily reports of atrocities situate this latest Israeli assault on common humanity within the domain of what the great Catholic thinker and poet, Thomas Merton, caIled "the unspeakable". Its horror exceeds our capacity to render the events through language.

The events in Gaza are essentially a repetition of prior Israeli incursions with heavy sophisticated weaponry in which the people of Gaza are the helpless victims of Israeli firepower, with no place to hide, and increasingly without even such necessities of life as water and electricity, whose facilities have been targeted by Israel's precision weaponry.

By now we should all understand that one-sided violence whether in the form of torture or state terror is criminal behaviour. When it leads to many civilian deaths on one side and few civilian casualties on the other side, then such state terror is best characterised as a massacre, epitomised by the high civilian death toll on July 20 in the Gaza City neighbourhood of Shujayea where a crowded residential district was repeatedly shelled by heavy IDF artillery. The latest casualty figures on the Palestinian side are more than 600 killed, over 3,000 injured, 75 percent of whom are estimated to be civilians. On the Israeli side, 29 killed, all but two were soldiers. "
Massacre in Gaza: Can international law provide justice for Palestinians?
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:09 AM on July 25, 2014 [5 favorites]


Op-Ed: My Outline for a Solution in Gaza - Moshe Feiglin, Deputy Speaker of the Knesset
Attack – Attack the entire ‘target bank’ throughout Gaza with the IDF’s maximum force (and not a tiny fraction of it) with all the conventional means at its disposal. All the military and infrastructural targets will be attacked with no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’. It is enough that we are hitting exact targets and that we gave them advance warning.
...

Elimination - The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave. (To cross into Sinai)

Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:21 AM on July 25, 2014 [3 favorites]


Hezbollah, despite recent differences with Hamas over Syria, pledges full support:

"BEIRUT: Hezbollah chief Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah Friday vowed "all means of support" to the Palestinian resistance in its battle with Israel, saying the latter had failed miserably in the 18-day conflict in Gaza.

Nasrallah, in a rare public appearance in Al-Suhadaa Complex in Beirut’s southern suburbs, also spoke out against recent developments in Iraq and the establishment of the so-called Islamic caliphate by ISIS, saying: "Our duty as Muslims today is to condemn what Christians and Muslims are facing in Iraq."

Speaking on Jerusalem Day, Nasrallah warned Israel against expanding its offensive in Gaza, saying the resistance in the enclave had already won the fighting.

“We, in Hezbollah, stand beside the Palestinian people and the Palestinian resistance without an exception. We will not spare any means of support that we can and are able to provide,” Nasrallah said. “We feel that we are true partners with the Palestinian resistance. ... Your victory is our own.”"
Nasrallah vows 'all means of support' for Gaza
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:23 AM on July 25, 2014


The subtitle to that "My Outline for a Solution in Gaza" article is "Clear and concise, the steps towards achieving quiet in Gaza". "Achieving quiet" - what a chilling euphemism.
posted by Flunkie at 10:29 AM on July 25, 2014 [3 favorites]


Speaking of Hezbollah, Bulgaria just this past week released the name of the suicide bomber who killed five Israelis and a Bulgari on a bus two years ago - "Husseini's alleged accomplices had direct links to Hezbollah, Bulgarian investigators said [...]"

The attack was in large part responsible for Europe designating Hezbollah as a terrorist group.
posted by rosswald at 10:51 AM on July 25, 2014


Slap*Happy is right that the Geneva conventions say nothing about casulty rates when discussing proportionality. But they do seem to be applicable to both sides in this conflict:
Article 51(5)(b) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I prohibits
an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

Under Article 85(3)(b) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I, “launching an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population or civilian objects in the knowledge that such attack will cause excessive loss of life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects, as defined in Article 57, paragraph 2 a) iii) is a grave breach.
The examples of Syria is well taken, I'm confidant that all arguing here that proportionality is an issue would also argue the same about Syria. The two seem to only be mutually exclusive in the minds of those looking to excuse one side or another's behavior.
posted by cell divide at 11:01 AM on July 25, 2014


Cell Divide, I don't believe Israel and the US have ratified Protocol I.

More from the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset Wikipedia:
Arabs are “a gang of bandits that never produced anything and never wanted to produce anything – a gang of bandits that for over one thousand years (since Islam was born) has lived on robbery and terror. . . . Since their establishment, the Arab states have produced nothing but poverty, suffering, wars – and fantastic wealth for their leaders.”[68]

The Arabs engage in typical Amalek[69] behaviour. I can't prove this genetically but this is the behaviour of Amalek.[70]

We shall offer them human rights without civil rights, so long as they prove their loyalty to their Jewish state host and accept Jewish sovereignty over their land. In such a situation they will be given legal-resident status and they can carry on their private affairs without anyone infringing on their human rights.[71]

Why should non-Jews have a say in the policy of a Jewish state?... For two thousand years, Jews dreamed of a Jewish state, not a democratic state. Democracy should serve the values of the state, not destroy them... You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers.The Arab destroys everything he touches.[72]
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:09 AM on July 25, 2014


Golden Eternity, I think that is true, but I was responding to chaz/slap*happy upthread, the idea seemed to be using the proportionality ideas as a way to come to grips with how to judge the conflict. I don't expect to see any war crimes or anything else like that happening to either Israel or Hamas.

The views of the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset used to be "underground", but now are now depressingly out in the open in Israel. There are some unbelievable quotes going around on Facebook that you'd think came from neo-nazis but are from elected leaders.
posted by cell divide at 11:21 AM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


In the Nation: Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza—Debunked

All supported with credible sources.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:30 PM on July 25, 2014 [5 favorites]


Gaza is not just about them, it’s about us, too
I feel guilty in leaving, and for the first time in my reporting life, scarred, deeply scarred by what I have seen, some of it too terrible to put on the screen.

It is accentuated by suddenly being within sumptuously appointed Israel. Accentuated by the absolute absence of anything that indicates that this bloody war rages a few miles away.

... an hour from the steel crossing-point from Gaza, there were three half-hearted air raid warnings. Some people run, but most just get on with what they are doing.

They are relatively safe today because  Israel is the most heavily fortified country on earth. The brilliant Israeli-invented, American-financed shield is all but fool-proof; the border fortifications, the intelligence, beyond anything else anywhere.

This brilliant people is devoting itself to a permanent and ever-intensifying expenditure to secure a circumstance in which there will never be a deal with the Palestinians. That’s what it looks like, that is what you see. It may not be true.
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:02 PM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


They are relatively safe today because Israel is the most heavily fortified country on earth. The brilliant Israeli-invented, American-financed shield is all but fool-proof; the border fortifications, the intelligence, beyond anything else anywhere.

This brilliant people is devoting itself to a permanent and ever-intensifying expenditure to secure a circumstance in which there will never be a deal with the Palestinians. That’s what it looks like, that is what you see. It may not be true.


What happened was the Israelis built the West Bank separation barrier because Palestinians were killing people with bombs. Not soldiers but civilians. They built Iron Dome because Palestinians were launching an average of three rockets a day at Israel. If the Palestinians didn't want the Israelis to defend themselves with a big fucking wall and a state of the art rocket deterrant system then they shouldn't have spent years attacking Israel with rockets and suicide bombs. Both the wall and the Dome are a defense that stop Israelis from being killed.
posted by qi at 3:44 PM on July 25, 2014 [2 favorites]


Well...Original attribution of kidnapped Israeli teens to Hamas coming apart.
posted by Trochanter at 6:34 PM on July 25, 2014


Does Israel impeach?
posted by Trochanter at 6:43 PM on July 25, 2014


You seem to think that most Israelis are against the government's actions? That isn't the case although its not a huge majority or anything in favor.
posted by Justinian at 7:29 PM on July 25, 2014


Israel's New Generation of Racists
While most such attacks go unreported, some do receive media attention. At the end of February, a group of religious Jewish women attacked and tore off the head scarf of a Palestinian woman waiting for a city train. A day earlier, a mob of angry teenagers attacked a Palestinian street cleaner in Tel Aviv, yelling Arab at him. They beat him over the head with a bottle, causing severe damage to his eye.
...

UNIDENTIFIED (SUBTITLED TRANSL.): I saw him here, lying on the ground. Fifteen or 20 kids--I don't know, they were young--kicking, throwing, breaking, yelling at him. And he's on the ground, bleeding to death. It's a lynch.

TARACHANSKY: A month earlier, half a dozen attacks were recorded against the offices and leaders of the Beitar soccer team for recruiting two Muslim players. At one game, fans unraveled a banner reading, "Beitar must remain pure forever".
...

ABU-RASS: When it comes to budget distributions, or when it comes to introducing new laws to the country, it makes a difference whether you're Arab or Jewish. If we take the last parliament, the last Knesset session, for example, which was the 18th Knesset, which was considered to be one of the most racist and anti-democratic parliaments, there were many legislative bills that most of them did not go through out of fear of more Israeli isolation, but the fact that they were introduced scares many, you know.

TARACHANSKY: Such as what?

ABU-RASS: For example, MK Danny Danon from the Likud who wanted to introduce or who introduced a bill that would want to prevent sexual relations between Arab and Jewish citizens in the state of Israel. A lot of that reminds us of the Nuremberg laws.
...
The state's unwillingness to prosecute Jewish perpetrators of hate crimes was crystallized when a group of youth who recently beat Palestinian teenagers so severely one of the vicims' heart stopped were given exceptionally light sentences. The same day of the attack, settlers in the West Bank threw a Molotov cocktail at a Palestinian taxi, burning the six passengers inside, including a four-month-old baby. They were acquitted.

HAARETZ: The gangs of Jewish ruffians man-hunting for Arabs are a manifestation of the dangerous evil that will surely triumph if good men continue to do nothing.
... the gangs of Jewish ruffians man-hunting for Arabs are no aberration. Theirs was not a one-time outpouring of uncontrollable rage following the discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped students. Their inflamed hatred does not exist in a vacuum: it is an ongoing presence, growing by the day, encompassing ever larger segments of Israeli society, nurtured in a public environment of resentment, insularity and victimhood, fostered and fed by politicians and pundits - some cynical, some sincere - who have grown weary of democracy and its foibles and who long for an Israel, not to put too fine a point on it, of one state, one nation and, somewhere down the line, one leader.

In the past 24 hours alone, a Facebook Page calling for “revenge” for the killings of the three kidnapped teens has received tens of thousands of “likes,” replete with hundreds of explicit calls to kill Arabs, wherever they are. The one demanding the execution of “extreme leftists” reached almost ten thousand likes within two days. These, and countless other articles on the web and on social media are inundated, today as in most other days, with readers comments spewing out the worst kind of racist bile and calling for death, destruction and genocide.

These calls have been echoed in recent days, albeit in slightly more veiled terms, by members of the Knesset, who cite Torah verses on the God of Revenge and his command on the fate of the Amalekites.
...

Edmund Burke’s maxim ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing’ was true in Berlin in the early 1930s and it will hold true in Israel as well. If nothing is done to reverse the tide, evil will surely triumph, and it won’t take too long.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:19 PM on July 25, 2014 [6 favorites]


In that DemocracyNow video the Israeli reporter at the West Bank protests says Israel was using snipers with live rounds to shoot protestors in the legs. My sympathy-o-meter is really running about dry for Israel. Can you imagine Fatah/Hamas snipers shooting up hundreds of Israeli protestors inside Israel in a situation in which no western democracy's police force would ever fire live rounds on their own citizens? Can you imagine Israel's response? And this is just one incident out of dozens over the past weeks.

I don't want any more civilian casualties, but I'm way, way beyond tears for however many IDF get taken out during Operation Massacre. Fuck them and the tank they rode into Gaza on.
posted by crayz at 10:39 PM on July 25, 2014 [8 favorites]


I think Israeli soldiers in Gaza deserve roughly the same amount of sympathy and concern as American soldiers in Iraq. As do the leaders who sent them there to kill and die. You might guess I have a lot of sympathy for one of those sets and none at all for the other.
posted by Justinian at 11:10 PM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


Hmm, my second sentence doesn't make as much sense as I hoped but it's too much to fix with EDIT so I'll be explicit: Neither Bush nor his murderous henchmen get any sympathy from me, nor do the leaders of Israel who order soldiers to die. The soldiers themselves are often just kids whom don't deserve to die or be forced to kill.

I am, however, all for sending in Bush and Cheney and Netanyahu and co with a couple rifles and a big ATTABOY.
posted by Justinian at 11:14 PM on July 25, 2014 [1 favorite]




Arrgh, I didn't close the first blockquote in my last comment. Sorry for that.

Decrying "Brutal Operation Taking Place in Our Name," Israeli Military Reservists Refuse to Serve
But overall, overall, there is a disease in my country, and the disease is spreading very fast, and it’s called fascism and racism. Fascism and racism is now the biggest threat of the Jewish people in the Middle East. And I can just cry and shout and ask everyone that hear us now to join the BDS movement, to join the boycott, divestment and sanction movement, and to try to put enormous pressure on your leaders, wherever they are, that they, in turn, will help us here stop this massacre, stop this ongoing slaughter of innocent people.

-- Yonatan Shapira, former Israeli captain and Air Force pilot
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:33 AM on July 26, 2014 [2 favorites]


I'm glad that Israelis are free to criticise their government, and have it reported. I hope that one day Gazans can do this too.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:13 AM on July 26, 2014


I'lm glad that Israelis are free to come and go as they please. I hope that one day Gazans can do this too.
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:17 AM on July 26, 2014 [11 favorites]


"In the past week I’ve seen and heard the popular statement “let the I.D.F. win” more and more frequently... Twelve years, five operations against Hamas (four of them in Gaza), and still we have this same convoluted slogan." Israel’s Other War
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:43 AM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Gman wrote: Assuming that all or even most of the dead with masculine names between 17 and 45 are fighters is ridiculous.

It's an observable fact that most casualties are men of military age, when you would expect around 80% of random casualties to be to be women, children, and the aged. So there's an excess number of casualties of military age. That article explains the discrepancy by assuming that dead fighters accounts for the excess military-aged casualties.

Let's call the total number of deaths (at that time) d = 370, the number of military-aged casualties m = 223, and the number of fighters f. The article asserts that the expected number of deaths would be (d-m)/80% = about 184. So the number of excess casualties is about 370 - 184 = 186, implying a civilian:military casualty ratio of almost exactly 1:1.

Note that this calculation doesn't imply that all military-aged males were fighters; it just assumes that civilian males of that age would have died at the same proportion as other civilians. I don't know whether that's a safe assumption, but there are a bunch of conservative assumptions going the other way, so it probably all cancels out. And it's very similar to the ratio from the last Gaza war, in which there were also allegations of a high ratio of civilian casualties until people started actually identifying which casualties were Hamas fighters, based on Hamas' own publications.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:50 AM on July 26, 2014


"I'm glad that Israelis are free to criticise their government, and have it reported. I hope that one day Gazans can do this too."

They are. Who do you think is letting this criminal gang of criminal terrorists hold the innocent citizens in Gaza hostage? The Israeli Government.

The root cause of the conflict is the Israeli Government's refusal to act according to our proven, American principles of "ONE NATION, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL".

Once Israel restores civil order, institutes fair and impartial laws, courts, and police, and puts the criminal terrorists on trial for their alleged crimes, do you think the people living in Gaza would have any problems with that?
posted by mikelieman at 8:34 AM on July 26, 2014


But overall, overall, there is a disease in my country, and the disease is spreading very fast, and it’s called fascism and racism.
I'm glad that Israelis are free to criticise their government, and have it reported. I hope that one day Gazans can do this too.
Couldn't help but think of this.
posted by Flunkie at 8:53 AM on July 26, 2014


I'm glad that Israelis are free to criticise their government, and have it reported. I hope that one day Gazans can do this too.

Better shoot them until democracy happens I guess
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:55 AM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]




Glenn Greenwald: The Washington Post's @BoothWilliam is using the 12-hour cease fire to photograph the devastation in Gaza. Look at his time-line.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:03 AM on July 26, 2014 [2 favorites]


The Economist magazine weighs in: Stop the rockets, but lift the siege
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:14 AM on July 26, 2014




Hamas have already begun attacking Israel after the ceasefire, despite the offer of a lengthening. Either they've no interest in holding the moral high ground or they believe that they can win an even greater moral argument by goading Israel into killing more Gazans. Israel's response is lamentable even if justified, but Hamas's means are either inscrutable or cynical.
posted by Thing at 10:58 AM on July 26, 2014


I feel that the author of that "This is not my birthright" article is coming from the right place, but this struck me as weird:
I think no one can possibly be reading the Torah anymore because this is not what we were told to do, this is not how we were told to act, and if you believe Israel is yours because God says so, how can you ignore the rest of what he said?
Huh? "The rest of what he said" in the Torah includes outright explicit commands to kill a whole bunch of people who were living in the land he promised them. Including some commands to entirely wipe them out.
posted by Flunkie at 11:38 AM on July 26, 2014


Concrete has been banned from Gaza since 2008. Think about that.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:40 AM on July 26, 2014


jesus just look at this devastation

https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/493085960138010624
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:42 AM on July 26, 2014


Concrete has been banned from Gaza since 2008. Think about that.

It makes me think just how morally muddled this whole conflict is. For on the one hand:

"Israel was right to ban the import of concrete, just look at how many tunnels have been built in order to breach the border,"

and on the other:

"Israel was wrong to ban the import of concrete, just look at how many tunnels have been built regardless."
posted by Thing at 11:58 AM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think the bigger issue is that Palestinians are trapped in Gaza and simply cannot leave.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:00 PM on July 26, 2014 [3 favorites]


In the NY Review of Books: Liberal Zionism After Gaza, Jonathan Freedland

"Never do liberal Zionists feel more torn than when Israel is at war. Days after I’d filed my essay for The New York Review on Ari Shavit and his fellow liberal Zionists, the perennial tension between Israel and the Palestinians had flared into violent confrontation and, eventually, a war in Gaza—the third such military clash in five years. For liberal Zionists these are times when the dual nature of their position is tested, some would say to destruction. What the Israel Defense Forces called Operation Protective Edge—a large-scale mobilization that by the time a twelve-hour “humanitarian truce” was agreed on July 26 had reached its nineteenth day—was no different.

Even during the grim chain of events that led to this episode, liberal Zionists found themselves facing both ways, switching direction day-by-day, even hour-by-hour. Of course, they, like everyone else, condemned the brutal June kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers on the West Bank, an act immediately blamed on the Hamas leadership (falsely so, it later turned out). But some felt queasy during the subsequent two-week Israeli operation to root out Hamas militants there, referred to as “mowing the lawn,” not least because several Palestinian civilians were killed in the process. Still, it was hard to criticize too loudly, because that effort was conducted under the cover of a search for the three missing teens and, by then, the three were the object of a campaign that encompassed the global Jewish diaspora: #BringBackOurBoys.

Few of these campaigners knew that the Israeli authorities had, in fact, established from the start that the boys were dead and apparently withheld that information from the public. Naturally, liberal Zionists condemned the Hamas response to the West Bank lawn mowing—the resumption of rocket fire from Gaza into southern Israel—but they hoped Benjamin Netanyahu’s government would react with restraint. And of course the eventual discovery of the teenagers’ corpses had liberal Zionists standing in solidarity with Israel during its hour of national grief. But when that led to the revenge kidnapping and murder by Jewish extremists of a Palestinian teenager from East Jerusalem, forced by his abductors to drink gasoline and then set alight, they were appalled at what furies had been unleashed. "
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:37 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Did Israel go too Far? The Massacre at the UN School/ Refugee Center, Juan Cole

"Sharif Abdel Kouddous reports for The Nation from Gaza on the Israeli shelling of a UN school that killed 16 and wounded 200, even though the school’s coordinates had been given to the Israeli military. Despite Israeli water-muddying, there isn’t any doubt that the Israelis struck the school, nor is there any evidence that the school was an origin point for any Hamas rockets. Indeed, correspondents on the ground find no evidence for Hamas using civilians as human shields.

CBS explains that the Israeli military contacted the UN and told them that the compound would be attacked by Israel. The UN replied that they would need time to move the large number of refugees sheltering there. They tried to cooperate. They never heard back from the Israeli army, and then Israeli tanks opened fire. It is outrageous that Israeli media spokesmen attempted to assert or imply that the school was hit by Hamas rockets. They were lying pure and simple. Because the Israeli generals had already told the UN that they were going to shell the school!

I don’t think it is any accident that soon thereafter, Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire for Saturday (though it had already violated the ceasefire by Saturday morning). The images of dead children and of reckless and illegal shelling of civilian structures where there were no militants or munitions have piled up in the World’s consciousness, and even though the Israeli leadership likes to pose as macho, they are open to being pressured, and they are being heavily pressured, by the outside world."
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:41 PM on July 26, 2014 [3 favorites]


Night of Destiny in Palestine: A Third Uprising?, Juan Cole

"A new element entered the current Gaza war on Thursday, as Israel shelled a UN school full of displaced persons taking refuge there and large protests broke out in the Palestinian West Bank. The shelling of the UNRWA school, which killed 15 and injured 200, was a war crime. The UN had given the school’s coordinates to the Israelis, so they knew it was a school and was holding displaced persons. The UN, when informed it would be shelled, asked for more time to evacuate people but were denied it.

Some 10,000 Palestinian protesters marched from the Amaria refugee camp near Ramallah toward Jerusalem, stopping at the infamous Apartheid South Africa-style Qalandia checkpoint that often bars or makes difficult and time-consuming Palestinians access to the third holiest city in Islam. The crowds threw rocks and bottles at the Israeli troops, who replied by firing into the crowd, killing two young men and wounding others.

The march had been called for, in part in reaction to the shelling of the UN school, by “youth groups” and “popular organizations.”

The primary hospital in Ramallah said that they had admitted dozens of “live fire victims.”"
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 2:43 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Genuine headline from The Guardian: Gaza truce in peril after Hamas attacks continue

Yes. That is one way to describe it. Or you might say that a truce in which one party continues attacking is not a truce.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:21 PM on July 26, 2014


I am very surprised that this is being studiously ignored.
Bombing for Oil: Gaza, Israel and the Levant Basin.
Be sure to scroll down for further links.
posted by adamvasco at 4:45 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe: They must have changed it since it went up. Right now it reads: Gaza truce in peril after Hamas 'resumes its attacks on Israel'
posted by ODiV at 4:50 PM on July 26, 2014


Hamas wants Israel to end the siege and remove their troops from Gaza.

"The group convened, with a senior EU representative, at the request of US secretary of state John Kerry, who failed to win backing from Israel or Hamas for a week-long truce on Friday. There were no envoys from Israel, Egypt or the Palestinian Authority in attendance.

Condemnation of both Israel and Hamas has intensified. Former Labour foreign secretary Jack Straw described Israel's actions as amoral and deeply damaging to its own cause. "It is time for Israel to stop," he told the Observer. "Both because what it is doing is abjectly amoral but also in terms of its own self-preservation. Its actions are doing incremental damage to everything Israel is supposed to stand for."

Former Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell said the Israelis were using sophisticated weaponry against innocent civilians when they could have deployed them in a more targeted way to limit loss of life.

But another former foreign secretary, the Tory MP Sir Malcolm Rifkind, refused to single out Israel, saying both sides must agree an unconditional ceasefire. "I would like to see that, but it can't be observed by one side alone," he said.

Hamas says it will not halt its rocket fire without firm guarantees that Gaza's seven-year border blockade will be lifted."
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:09 PM on July 26, 2014


Seems to me that Israel should agree to lift the blockade in return for a permanent cease-fire. Then when Hamas starts attack Israel again they can honestly say that its clear Hamas will attack no matter what.
posted by Justinian at 5:12 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Gaza ceasefire reveals full extent of Israeli destruction: Palestinians appear dazed by level of damage as they check homes, retrieve possessions and search for bodies of relatives

"Others were resigned. Zaki al-Masri noted quietly that both his house and that of his son had been destroyed. "The Israelis will withdraw, tomorrow or the day after, and we'll be left in this awful situation as usual."

At the nearby hospital, six patients and 33 medical staff had spent the night huddled in the X-ray department as the neighbourhood was shelled, said the director, Bassam Abu Warda. A tank shell had hit the second floor of the building, leaving a gaping hole, and the facade was peppered with holes from large-calibre bullets.

Two Red Crescent ambulances were hit in Beit Hanoun overnight, killing a medic and wounding three, one critically, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. On Saturday, rescue workers pulled the scorched body of the medic from the wrecked vehicle, which had been hit about 200 metres from the hospital.

"Targeting ambulances, hospitals and medical workers is a serious violation of the law of war," said Jacques de Maio, head of the ICRC delegation for Israel and the occupied territories."
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:12 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


"Then when Hamas starts attack Israel again they can honestly say that its clear Hamas will attack no matter what."

Previously, from The Nation: Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza—Debunked

"3) This Israeli operation, among others, was caused by rocket fire from Gaza.

Israel claims that its current and past wars against the Palestinian population in Gaza have been in response to rocket fire. Empirical evidence from 2008, 2012 and 2014 refute that claim. First, according to Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the greatest reduction of rocket fire came through diplomatic rather than military means. This chart demonstrates the correlation between Israel’s military attacks upon the Gaza Strip and Hamas militant activity. Hamas rocket fire increases in response to Israeli military attacks and decreases in direct correlation to them. Cease-fires have brought the greatest security to the region.

During the four months of the Egyptian-negotiated cease-fire in 2008, Palestinian militants reduced the number of rockets to zero or single digits from the Gaza Strip. Despite this relative security and calm, Israel broke the cease-fire to begin the notorious aerial and ground offensive that killed 1,400 Palestinians in twenty-two days. In November 2012, Israel’s extrajudicial assassination of Ahmad Jabari, the chief of Hamas’s military wing in Gaza, while he was reviewing terms for a diplomatic solution, again broke the cease-fire that precipitated the eight-day aerial offensive that killed 132 Palestinians.

Immediately preceding Israel’s most recent operation, Hamas rocket and mortar attacks did not threaten Israel. Israel deliberately provoked this war with Hamas. Without producing a shred of evidence, it accused the political faction of kidnapping and murdering three settlers near Hebron. Four weeks and almost 700 lives later, Israel has yet to produce any evidence demonstrating Hamas’s involvement. During ten days of Operation Brother’s Keeper in the West Bank, Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011. It’s these Israeli provocations that precipitated the Hamas rocket fire to which Israel claims left it with no choice but a gruesome military operation."
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:16 PM on July 26, 2014 [6 favorites]


None of that involves Israel agreeing to lift the blockade?
posted by Justinian at 5:26 PM on July 26, 2014


(I mean, sure, if Israel agreed to lift the blockade but continued to pound the shit out of Gaza they couldn't claim Hamas would attack no matter what but that strikes me as obvious.)
posted by Justinian at 5:27 PM on July 26, 2014


Fair point; I read your post as implying Hamas broke the truce and started this disaster.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2014


Seems to me that Israel should agree to lift the blockade in return for a permanent cease-fire. Then when Hamas starts attack Israel again they can honestly say that its clear Hamas will attack no matter what.

Justinian, Hamas has made any number of statements to that effect (I linked to one above). I don't think anyone believes that they will ever stop attacking Israel: it is their entire raison d'être, as laid out in their charter. Consequently, I don't think there is any prospect of Israel (and Egypt, which is also blockading Gaza) making it easier for Hamas to import weapons, particularly if the reason is just to be able to say "I told you so" yet again.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2014


Joe, I don't think they'll ever stop either. But you can't just assume that, you have to show it to the world.
posted by Justinian at 6:11 PM on July 26, 2014


I don't think anyone believes that they will ever stop attacking Israel: it is their entire raison d'être, as laid out in their charter

That's sort of irrelevant. Israel hasn't been attacking Hamas. It has been attacking innocent people.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:25 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Well, it's been attacking both, yeah.
posted by Justinian at 7:33 PM on July 26, 2014


I don't think anyone believes that they will ever stop attacking Israel: it is their entire raison d'être

Joe given the myriad documentation in this very thread of the fact that Hamas has stopped rocket launches and other offensive acts against Israel for prolonged periods of time, periods of peace that have been repeatedly interrupted by unprovoked Israeli violence against Palestinians. This is in fact what led to the current conflict, and so it strikes me as extremely disingenuous to single out Hamas as unfitting partners in peace when it is Israel that has not just time and time again, but in the very conflict we are discussing, been the one to break the peace.

Do you think anyone believes Israel will ever stop attacking Palestinians until the Palestinians are all dead or their land is all stolen? If so, why?
posted by crayz at 7:58 PM on July 26, 2014 [2 favorites]




oh for fucks sake, the only source are Israeli military commanders who believe that North Korea may have given advice to Hamas on how to build tunnels, four years ago. That is nonsense.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:49 PM on July 26, 2014 [4 favorites]


Hamas-North Korea love pact report... "according to Western security sources"... "Security officials say"... "explained a security official".. drip, drip, drip.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:17 PM on July 26, 2014


Do you think anyone believes Israel will ever stop attacking Palestinians until the Palestinians are all dead or their land is all stolen? If so, why?

Your suggestion is delusional and does not correspond with reality. If Israel wanted to attack "until the Palestinians are all dead" it could have continued its air war without involving ground troops. More than forty Israeli soldiers have died because Israel wanted to minimise Palestinian casualties. As for wanting to steal "Palestinian land", this war is occurring because Israel did not wish to occupy Gaza. If it had wanted to "steal" the land it could have remained there.

Hamas has repeatedly stated and shown by its actions that it plans to keep attacking Israel until Israel is destroyed, and that any ceasefire is merely an opportunity to rearm. Your claim is a crazy-pants rant that deserves nothing but derision.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:10 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]




Facts on the ground... series of maps which succinctly illustrate Israel's expansion since 1948: Palestinian Loss-of-Land
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:20 PM on July 26, 2014


UNRWA supplies found in terror tunnel

This doesn't look good for UNRWA. Leaving that aside, here's one of Hamas' hidey-holes, stocked with food stolen from refugees. The labor and materials they used could have built homes or schools - or even bomb shelters, to protect Palestinians against the war Hamas started. Hamas is the Palestinian Mafia: a vast and poisonous organisation that battens and grows rich off the suffering of its people.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:22 PM on July 26, 2014 [2 favorites]


Mister Bijou, Jews and Arabs were in the same position before 1948: many of them owned land privately; nobody owned state land. But your map pretends that Arabs owned everything that wasn't privately-owned Jewish land. So it's a lie; an accurate map would have shown that almost all land was State land, with a scattering of private land owned by Jews, Arabs, and other ethnic groups.

The map titled "1947 UN Plan" is similarly deceptive: it was a plan that was never finalised, because it was rejected by the Arabs themseves; you can't say that the plan they rejected reflected something they owned. In any event, where has the privately-owned Jewish land gone? Where is the corpus separatum that took up a big chunk of Judea?

The 1949-1967 map is another lie: Gaza was ruled by Egypt; Judea and Samaria (now called the West Bank) were claimed by Jordan. Why are they called "Palestinian", when Palestinians themselves rejected claims to them?

Finally, the Accords between Israel and the Palestinian Authority divide the West Bank into Areas A, B, and C. I don't think your map ("2013") even shows all of Area A, let alone Area C (which is under Palestinian civil control). And if land owned privately by Jews was recognised as "Jewish" land in the first map, why isn't land owned privately by Arabs recognised as "Palestinian" land in any of the other maps? I know the answer, of course: it's because your map is stupid propaganda.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:38 PM on July 26, 2014 [2 favorites]


Re: Palestinian Mafia

Politicos and elites growing fat on the lives of others seems to be endemic in the Middle East:

Israel among most corrupt of OECD countries

Former Israeli PM Olmert sentenced to six years for corruption
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:49 PM on July 26, 2014 [1 favorite]


Oh for goodness' sakes. Can we get away from the tu quoque stuff, especially when it doesn't have more than the vaguest relevance? Fine, sure, lots of corruption in Israel. But Hamas is creating concrete-lined caches instead of homes or shelters, and stocking them with goods literally stolen from refugees.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:02 AM on July 27, 2014




"Fine, sure, lots of corruption in Israel. But Hamas "

The point is that neither party acts in Good Faith, the difference being that the Government of Israel is a sovereign entity, while Hamas is a gang of terrorist criminals.

Why should anyone trust the Israeli Government at this point?
posted by mikelieman at 1:50 AM on July 27, 2014


Mikelieman, are you even reading people's comments any more?
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:23 AM on July 27, 2014


Israel: PR geniuses
posted by gman at 4:50 AM on July 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Joe. If I was a Gazan- the non-terrorist kind, yeah?- I'm pretty sure I would want to keep my food in one of the 5% of places in Gaza that can't be reduced to rubble at a moment's notice. Calling these things "terror tunnels" implies that there would be no other reason to have a bunker in a war zone full of civilians.

I will readily grant you that Hamas is like a Mafia. Readily! But you know why the Mafia was able to proliferate? Because the people in their communities knew that they had no one else to turn to for protection.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:02 AM on July 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Calling these things "terror tunnels" implies that there would be no other reason to have a bunker in a war zone full of civilians.

Clicking through on Joe's link re: the UNRWA supplies in the tunnels, is this page (in Hebrew). I don't think your-average-civilian is allowed in these tunnels.
posted by rosswald at 5:27 AM on July 27, 2014


so, what is the end game here, joe in australia?

let's consider the rather unlikely scenario where hamas and unaffiliated radical organizations give up their violence and become peace loving people who are all kittens and butterflies - what happens then?

do they (and the west bank) get their own fully recognized state with borders under their control, free and open access to the sea, a functioning airport, the ability to import the goods they need to maintain a healthy country, to travel freely, to participate fully in the world economy? - do they have control over their land, all of it, right up to the border with israel? (or in the west bank, up to the border of jordan, which would be free and open according to what arrangements are made with jordan?)

any thing less than that would be a continuation of the blockade that has been going on for many years - and according to international law and convention, a blockade IS an act of war

so, just what is the end game?
posted by pyramid termite at 5:45 AM on July 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Haaretz got a copy of Kerry's ceasefire proposal from Friday night, which a Haaretz reporter lambasted pretty spectacularly.
posted by lullaby at 5:47 AM on July 27, 2014


Showbiz_liz: As Rosswald pointed out, this is a Hamas bunker, with Hamas tools and weapons. Also, those are bulk food supplies - 25 kg (I think) bags of rice. It's not someone's private stash. I bet lots of Gazans would love to be able to build bunkers like that; the estimate I saw was that the tunnel construction used 800,000 tons of concrete, and I presume it would have all been stolen from NGO operations or "taxed" from concrete imported by Gazans for private use.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:08 AM on July 27, 2014


so, what is the end game here, joe in australia?

I'm buggered1 if I know.

There isn't real peace between the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, but at least neither side there thinks they have a religious duty to kill the others; and at least there isn't a semi-adjacent country funnelling arms to them. Hamas believes it has a fundamental religious duty to prevent any non-Moslem control of (what is now) Israel, and I don't think you can persuade a whole group of people that the fundamentals of their faith are wrong.

1 An Australian expression that I think means "astounded".
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:15 AM on July 27, 2014


It actually means to be the recipient of anal sex.
posted by Grangousier at 6:20 AM on July 27, 2014


Does it? Gosh.

Astounding.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:22 AM on July 27, 2014


Lullaby wrote: Haaretz got a copy of Kerry's ceasefire proposal from Friday night, which a Haaretz reporter lambasted pretty spectacularly.

Blog rumor has it that the FAA decision to prohibit US flights from Israel was the result of US pressure. The White House then extended the flight ban for a further 24 hours, and hinted that they would keep doing so until Israel reached a ceasefire. The Israelis said "Wow, we didn't realise the depth of your concern! We shall attack harder and faster until our airport is 100% safe!"

The flight ban was dropped two hours later.

OK, this is blog rumor and I have no idea whether it has a factual base, but it's a good story and it explains the FAA's unusual decision to impose a ban, when the airport is objectively safe (and iI think Kerry flew in there himself), and the unusual decision to drop the ban just after it had been extended.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:23 AM on July 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe if you are trying to convince us that Hamas are bad and not good and kills people, everyone already knows that. Now, what we are trying to convince you is that Israel is bad and not good and kills people. And a couple hundred children were bombed to death by Israel over the past couple days, but you still defend it, apologize for it, and encourage its brutal violence.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:46 AM on July 27, 2014 [8 favorites]




so, just what is the end game?

Palestinian reservations
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:56 AM on July 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I'm reading comments, and all I see is the same bullshit that enables the status quo. Until everyone agrees that NEITHER the legitimate government of Israel nor the criminal terrorists of Hamas give a shit about the essential point that Real Governments (1) promote inalienable rights (2) without regard of ethnicity or religion and (3) restore domestic tranquillity.

That's the recipe that has been proven to work. Everything else is just bullshit.

So, when the Israeli Government gets its shit together and can **deliver** "One Nation, With Liberty and Justice For All", then that's a birthright everyone can share.
posted by mikelieman at 8:03 AM on July 27, 2014


"reservations" is pretty much what the ghettos are now. I think the people who are invested in the status-quo, are pretty much just hoping in another 100 years that everyone on the reservations will have died of .... smallpox maybe?

For all the rhetoric about a "Two State Solution", what happened last time Palestine tried to get recognition from the UN?
posted by mikelieman at 8:05 AM on July 27, 2014


Until everyone agrees that NEITHER the legitimate government of Israel nor the criminal terrorists of Hamas give a shit about the essential point that Real Governments (1) promote inalienable rights (2) without regard of ethnicity or religion and (3) restore domestic tranquillity.


As I said upthread, many agree that Hamas doesn't give a shit about being a 'Real Government'. Much, much fewer people agree that Israel doesn't give a shit about being a 'Real Government'. Its not like these are equally shared responsibilities between parties with parity.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:17 AM on July 27, 2014


" many agree that Hamas doesn't give a shit about being a 'Real Government'. "

And that's something I can't wrap my head around. Why does anyone care what a gang of criminals thinks? Why does anyone consider them a legitimate sovereign entity, and if they're going to credit Hamas as one, then they have to accept all that goes with it -- among other aspects, that the Israeli siege is itself a war crime...
posted by mikelieman at 8:39 AM on July 27, 2014


and if they're going to credit Hamas as one, then they have to accept all that goes with it -- among other aspects, that the Israeli siege is itself a war crime

I believe most of the world DOES feel this way.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:44 AM on July 27, 2014


Powerful video from UK Channel 4's Jon Snow about the suffering of Gazan children.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:26 AM on July 27, 2014 [4 favorites]


Why does anyone consider them a legitimate sovereign entity

The de facto government of an area is whoever has the guns to enforce their claim to be the government. If Hamas has the guns then Hamas is the de facto government. I agree they shouldn't be seen as a legitimate de jure government but that doesn't change the fact that they have the power.
posted by Justinian at 3:13 PM on July 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israel seems to have released (drone?) footage of their mortar round hitting the school for whats it worth.
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on July 27, 2014




So what?
posted by Grangousier at 4:41 PM on July 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


That Jon Snow video is worth watching. Hamas is winning the PR fight and there seems to be no way Israel can get on the right side of it.
posted by arcticseal at 4:42 PM on July 27, 2014


So the "telegenic dead" are winning the "PR fight?"
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:22 PM on July 27, 2014


INSIDE THE GAZA SCHOOLYARD MASSACRE
No one ever has to ask who will take care of the children of Palestine, or, at least, who will try. Where will they be educated? Where will they find refuge from the worst effects of poverty? Where will they seek shelter in times of war, like the fighting that has raged in Gaza for almost three weeks? They will always turn to the organization that goes by the name UNRWA ...

Last week, days before the incident at Beit Hanoun, Israeli officials practically accused UNRWA of collaborating with Hamas militarily. When UNRWA personnel discovered several Hamas rockets hidden in one of the agency’s empty buildings, they handed them over to the local authorities who, very probably, work for Hamas. But one business UNRWA is not in is bomb disposal, and it is not clear what else it could have done at that point. Some Israeli web sites, meanwhile, have picked up on what they claim is evidence in Palestinian social media that UNRWA school facilities have been used by Hamas to indoctrinate and train a future generation of terrorists.
...

The shelling of Beit Hanoun was not the first time an UNRWA building was hit in this conflict.  There were three attacks on other U.N. schools-turned-shelters before Thursday’s carnage, according to the agency’s spokesperson, Christopher Gunness, and 80 other UNRWA facilities have been damaged in this war.
...

“There have been two occasions when we found rockets [in UNRWA sites] and whenever we find them, we condemn them,” said Gunness. But he wants to be clear: “There was no evidence of rockets in the schools that were attacked or signs of militants,” he said.
Seems like the UN should have had a bomb disposal team to destroy rockets found on UNRWA premises.
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:51 PM on July 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


From what I've read, the UN does have a bomb disposal team; they're just not local to Gaza. But you have to keep in mind that UNRWA employs a lot of Gazans, and the political realities mean that a lot of them belong to Hamas. In fact, I recall that Gunness gave a rather snotty response when people criticised him for employing them, something along the lines of not discriminating. Anyway, UNRWA staffers were almost certainly aware that the rockets were there before they were "discovered"; it's quite possible that UNRWA employees were the ones who put them there; and for Gunness to say that There was no evidence of rockets in the schools that were attacked or signs of militants simply means that he is unable or unwilling to actually investigate.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:42 PM on July 27, 2014


According to the Times of Israel live blog there's some good news:
1) There is presently a humanitarian truce, which the IDF regards as "open-ended".
2) The UN has called for a ceasefire based on the Egyptian initiative, not the mischievous Qatar one. (Sucks to be Kerry.)
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:31 PM on July 27, 2014


Oh, the reference to Kerry is from yesterday and not covered in the current page of the blog: PA slams Kerry for convening ‘friends of Hamas’ summit

It's wonderful that Kerry has been able to get the PA and Israel to agree on something: the idea is to strengthen the PA, which is the UN-recognised representative of the Palestinians and at least not officially anti-Semitic; not to give a victory to its rival, Hamas, along with landing rights for improved weaponry.

Kerry's preferred plan was conceived by Qatar, which is (a) the home of Hamas' leader-in-exile; (b) allegedly Hamas' primary source of funds; (c) coincidentally the very recent purchaser of US$11 billion of weaponry, the largest US arms sale this year.

Now, I have a prepared statement from Nelson Muntz somewhere ...
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:47 PM on July 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Hamas is winning the PR fight and there seems to be no way Israel can get on the right side of it.

If this is true, this is amazing considering the lack of nearly any voices partial to the Palestinian cause in mainstream media outlets (certainly in America -- if Jon Snow did that on, say, CNN I'd imagine he'd get the Octavia Nasr / Ayman Mohyeldin / Diana Magnay / Rula Jebreal / AJE treatment). It's a measure of how grotesque the Israeli actions are that despite their near-monopoly on sympathetic establishment airtime and column space they can't keep public opinion from turning against them. And, I suppose, a testament to social media's influence.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:16 AM on July 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


The bigger picture.
The twists and turns of political animosities, sectarian rivalries and territorial disputes in the Middle East over many decades now include further unravellings of the regional order as new forces take hold. The enduring Israeli-Palestinian conflict must be now be seen within this context
posted by adamvasco at 4:20 AM on July 28, 2014


There is presently a humanitarian truce, which the IDF regards as "open-ended"

Nevertheless, Israel is still bombing and rockets are being fired out of Gaza.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:25 AM on July 28, 2014


It's a measure of how grotesque the Israeli actions are that despite their near-monopoly on sympathetic establishment airtime and column space they can't keep public opinion from turning against them.
I don't think public opinion is actually turning against Israel, but I agree that media coverage has been quite unsatisfactory. It's a shame the networks have gone along with Hamas' censorship, for instance. There has been remarkably little coverage of Hamas' use of human shields, apart from reporters' occasional references to rockets being fired nearby; and an article critical of Hamas' use of Shifa hospital as headquarters was actually deleted after the reporter was threatened.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:44 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]




I think there comes a point at whivh you have to call these anti-Jewish protests, if not pogroms: Toulouse Jewish center firebombed after anti-Israel protest in area
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:10 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


But you have to keep in mind that UNRWA employs a lot of Gazans, and the political realities mean that a lot of them belong to Hamas.

Here it is everyone. So hundreds of children were murdered by Israel over the past couple days. This is the argument that attempts to justify it: Someone in Gaza is most likely part of Hamas, so killing them isn't killing a civilian, its killing a soldier. While the entire population of Gaza isn't a part of Hamas, each one of them could be, and it not worth taking the chance that they're innocent civilians.

Since the grim realities are undeniable, this is the argument I assure you you will see more and more in the next couple days: "Ok now that it's clear that Israel bombed the UNRWA school and littered the group with the limbs of dozens of dead kids, Gazans are part of Hamas and Gazans are part of UNRWA, so it wasn't a war crime."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:23 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


That's not what I said, and your mischaracterization of it is despicable.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:34 AM on July 28, 2014


I strongly suspect that six months living on the other side would change the minds of the individuals who intractably support Israel.
posted by Pudhoho at 5:38 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


That's pretty clearly the implication. And it is not like you have earned the benefit of the doubt on whether or not killing Palestinian civilians is justified or not.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:41 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I strongly suspect that six months living on the other side would change the minds of the individuals who intractably support Israel.

More like five minutes.

The incapability of some people to empathize with Palestinians just blows my mind.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:59 AM on July 28, 2014 [5 favorites]




Ain't just Ayatollah Khamenei who wants to destroy Israel and kill Jews elsewhere, Grangousier, try much of France too. In fact, I've French friends who believe Israel should not exist, an absolutely insane position.

Israel is obviously the one party with the power to control the death toll here, ergo the political pressure on them to pull out is wholly appropriate. I won't participate in or publicize any sort of movement, protest, etc. that appears even lightly contaminated by ideas that all the Israelis need to move elsewhere, therefore I will not participate in the current political pressure to make Israel back down, especially not in France.

I'm not personally too bothered by not being involved against the Israeli occupation, since the world has so many much more important conflicts.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:16 AM on July 28, 2014


I've minimal knowledge about military strategy, but the IDF does not appear to be killing civilians indiscriminately. If Israel really wanted to maximize Palestinian casualties, they could've fully dropped the blockade for a few years, built up some positive public opinion by not responding to some rocket attacks, and finally respond to the rocket attacks with carpet bombing ala WWII. I think the fair critique is : the IDF is no longer be dissuaded by human shields. What do other countries do in similar situations? Does anyone have a comparison of civilian casualties by the U.S. during the Iraq war as opposed to by Israel now?
posted by jeffburdges at 7:29 AM on July 28, 2014


If your French friends believe that Israel qua state based on a racial hierarchy should not exist, then that is not insane and I agree with them (because all state's based on a racial hierarchy should not exist). But if your French friends believe that Jewish people in Israel should leave or not live there than that is insane.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:36 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


via Ayman Mohyeldin ‏
TWO (2) STRIKES in #Gaza in last 45 minutes: 1) at the outpatient clinic at Shifa Hospital AND 2) at Al Shati Refugee camp
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:43 AM on July 28, 2014


It is kind of frustrating how comments from Israeli right-wingers, insignificant or not, are breathlessly posted in this thread (sometimes even multiple times), but a comment from the head of a huge ME regional power, the spiritual leader of one of the largest Islamic sects, talking about holding a vote to expel the vast majority of Israeli Jews gets a "so what."
posted by rosswald at 7:51 AM on July 28, 2014


probably because this is a thread about Israel bombing Gaza.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:53 AM on July 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


Which is what the Ayatollah's tweet was addressing.
posted by rosswald at 7:59 AM on July 28, 2014


Yes, there are a surprising number of people outside the middle east who literally believe the Jews should leave Israel and not live there, MisantropicPainforest. Arabs have been espousing this position ever since Israel was formed. And still do today. You win at least some converts just by repeating yourself enough, especially while Israel generates so much ill will all by themselves.

There isn't likely to be any peace until Israel decides to actually drop their blockade, well a blockade is an act of war for good reason. At the same time, we know damn well that any other country would do exactly the same thing in Israel's situation. Can you honestly imagine the U.S. not blockading the shit out of Cuba if they'd even a whiff that Cuba wanted to carry out rocket attacks? Ditto France, etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:15 AM on July 28, 2014


As an aside, I wish we heard more voices advocating a three state solution, obviously the West Bank and Gaza are quite different politically, no reason to force them into one state.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:15 AM on July 28, 2014


Can you honestly imagine the U.S. not blockading the shit out of Cuba if they'd even a whiff that Cuba wanted to carry out rocket attacks? Ditto France, etc.

In what way is the US' relationship to Cuba at all analogous to Israel's relationship to Gaza?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:30 AM on July 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


At the same time, we know damn well that any other country would do exactly the same thing in Israel's situation.

The siege, occupation, non-cease fire, etc. are entirely of Israel's own making. There clearly are alternatives. Like, not doing those things.

I wish we heard more voices advocating a three state solution, obviously the West Bank and Gaza are quite different politically, no reason to force them into one state.

Which is something that Palestinians would never, ever accept because they consider themselves a united people and culture (despite Israeli attempts to segment them). So why even bother with it?

(Btw, I have no idea what you mean when you say that the political differences between Gaza and the West Bank are grounds for their permanent separation.)

If we are talking totally impractical solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, we can do better than that. How about a no-state solution? Let's get rid of these irrational imperialist constructions bequeathed to the Middle East by a legacy of violence and coercion. Not going to be achieved anytime soon, but at least perhaps worth getting behind. Or we could go with the Onion's recent bold proposal.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:33 AM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


If we're going to discuss anti-semitism and other racist incidents inside and outside Israel, I think this article is worth a read.

An interesting excerpt:
According to the ADL, there were a total of 751 anti-Jewish racist incidents in the United States in 2013, including both violent and non-violent incidents. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), there were a total of 399 anti-Arab racist incidents in Israel during the same period — a figure that reflects only violent instances of racism.

At the end of 2013, the population of the United States was 317.3 million while the population of Israel was 8.1 million. This means that in 2013, one anti-Jewish racist incident was committed in the United States for every 422,500 people, while during the same period, one anti-Arab racist incident was committed in Israel for every 20,400 people.

This disparity points to a frightening fact:

anti-Arab racist incidents in Israel are a staggering 20 times more common than anti-Jewish racist incidents in the United States.

In terms of racist incidents perpetrated against Palestinians, Israeli soldiers commit far more of these acts than Israeli civilians, and these are not even included in the OCHA tally.
I wonder how the numbers for France, where we've seen the violent and often anti-semitic protests recently, compare.
posted by cell divide at 11:06 AM on July 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


Corey Robin: The Higher Sociopathy
The Gaza war, you see, is not a war over tunnels. It’s not even a war in defense of Israel. It’s a war about…war, a war in defense of just war. Once upon a time, crackpots thought they were fighting a war to end all wars. That was its justice. Now they’re fighting a war in order to make just war possible. That is its justice.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:24 AM on July 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


The leader of Hamas said on TV today that even if they get everything they are demanding they will still continue to attack Israel until it ceases to exist. Which is something I think a lot of people are ignoring. Yes, Israel needs to find a way to allow Gaza to exist without being under siege. But by the same token Israel needs to be allowed to find a way to exist without Hamas constantly trying to kill everyone.

Too many people are pretending that the former will accomplish the latter but it will not.
posted by Justinian at 12:10 PM on July 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


But by the same token Israel needs to be allowed to find a way to exist without Hamas constantly trying to kill everyone.

Can the current Government of Israel, after all the bad-faith displayed, and which doesn't promote inalienable civil rights, or equal protection of the law ever have the "Consent of the Governed"?
posted by mikelieman at 12:21 PM on July 28, 2014


The leader of Hamas said on TV today that even if they get everything they are demanding they will still continue to attack Israel until it ceases to exist. Which is something I think a lot of people are ignoring. Yes, Israel needs to find a way to allow Gaza to exist without being under siege. But by the same token Israel needs to be allowed to find a way to exist without Hamas constantly trying to kill everyone.

Too many people are pretending that the former will accomplish the latter but it will not.


Hamas is not Gaza. Hamas exists because Gazans feel that their only alternative to continued marginalization and de facto imprisonment is violent resistance. So, maybe give them another alternative?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:23 PM on July 28, 2014 [7 favorites]


The leader of Hamas said on TV today that even if they get everything they are demanding they will still continue to attack Israel until it ceases to exist.

That's an unexpected turn for M'shal. Any chance you have a link?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:32 PM on July 28, 2014


Turkey to send another Freedom Flotilla to Gaza

Also, in a little slice of Americana, there was a rally today in New York in support of Israel's actions. Some tweets from a journalist at that event:

Vast majority of "NY Stands With Israel" attendees appear not to be NYC residents -- people bussed in from central PA, upstate NY, all over

"Stand With Israel" rally-goers tell me Jewish summer camps located as far as 4 hours away bussed kids to NYC today to attend

"Stand With Israel" rally goers now appear to be having a massive dance party, complete with Hebrew acapella group and beatboxing

NYC comptroller Scott Stringer is literally screaming about the alleged endangerment of Jews around the world -- sounds like a total fanatic

Crowd at "NY Stand With Israel" chanting "Israel wants peace," while simultaneously calling for continued Israeli military aggression

Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY): "Brooklyn stands with Israel! ... The only message neighbors respect in a tough neighborhood is strength!"

Rep. Nydia Velazquez (D-NY) addressing "Stand With Israel" rally, says Israel has a right to remain in Gaza post-ceasefire -- re-occupation?

I've heard a **ton** of people badmouthing the NY Times at this "Stand With Israel" rally

Rep. Eliot Engel at "NY Stands With Israel" rally: "I bring you greetings from Congress...there's one issue on which we all agree" -- Israel

At jam-packed "NY Stand With Israel" rally Chuck Schumer proclaims, "no ceasefire!" More huge applause.

Huge applause at "Stand With Israel" rally for Rep. Steve Israel's (D-NY) pledge to pressure the UN not to investigate IDF war crimes

Just talked to 10 "Stand With Israel" rally goers at the UN -- literally every one of them told me only the info source they trust is IDF
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:42 PM on July 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


So, maybe give them another alternative?

As I said in the comment, Israel needs to allow Gaza to exist without being an open-air prison. But they need to do that because its the right thing to do not because I think it will stop Hamas from being Hamas.
posted by Justinian at 12:48 PM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


That's an unexpected turn for M'shal. Any chance you have a link?

I saw it on television rather than the internet. But you're right that I was imprecise when I said "the leader" of Hamas. It was probably just a spokesman for him.
posted by Justinian at 12:49 PM on July 28, 2014


Actually, I just googled Meshaal and it was him speaking. He was asked if Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist once their demands are met and he said "No". Full stop.
posted by Justinian at 12:52 PM on July 28, 2014


It would be helpful if you provided a link to his remarks. Continuing to "attack Israel until it ceases to exist" is very different from not "recognizing Israel's right to exist."

The later is something that no Palestinian will ever do, nor should they. Both because it's degrading for Palestinians to concede that Zionists had the right to expel Palestinians from what was formerly their homeland and because it is useless -- there is no such provision in international law. Israel has negotiated and does negotiate with parties that do not recognize its right to exist (Hamas being one of them). It's simply a provision that Israelis insist on when they want to ensure a proposal is rejected by Palestinians.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:03 PM on July 28, 2014


That's, and your original characterization, aren't even close to what actually happened. Here is the link:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607621?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Charlie Rose said, "Its one thing to say you will coexist with the Jews, but its another thing for you to say you will coexist with the state of Israel, do you want to coexist with the state of Israel? Do you want to recognize Israel as a Jewish state?"

M'shal: "No. I said I do not want to live with of occupiers. I do coexist with others"
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:08 PM on July 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


Unless I am wrong and it wasn't Charlie Rose and Meshal is talking to other Western journalists.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:10 PM on July 28, 2014




Protective Edge: The disengagement undone
The current war in Gaza demands we revisit the circumstances surrounding Israel’s “disengagement” from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Supporters of the war often claim that Israel left the territory and “got rockets in return.”
...

The object of the disengagement was to prevent the creation of the Palestinian state – relieving the pressure on an area that Israel had trouble maintaining in order to hold on more tightly to other parts. This was no secret; even Ariel Sharon’s top aid, Dov Weisglass, said as much on record in an interview with Haaretz.
Top PM aide: Gaza plan aims to freeze the peace process
"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser Dov Weisglass has told Haaretz.

"And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."
Who Bears More Responsibility for the War in Gaza? - John Judis
Kerry has finally entered the negotiations. Whether he’ll succeed remains unclear. Some kind of ceasefire is likely, but the question is whether Hamas and the Israel government can agree to terms that will prevent future outbreaks. There is a fairly obvious deal to be made. It would consist of Hamas agreeing to the internationally-observed demilitarization of Gaza in exchange for Israel removing the blockade and freeing the prisoners arrested in June. Also included would be international aid to rebuild Gaza. But Hamas leaders are likely to balk at demilitarization, and the Israeli cabinet at removing the blockade and freeing the prisoners. The ceasefire terms will be fuzzy, as they were in 2012. And the occupation of the West Bank will continue.
Why John Judis’ ‘Genesis’ Matters
Judis’ central argument is that Harry Truman, while sympathetic to the plight of the Jews after the Holocaust and their need to find a homeland and place of refuge in Palestine, also thought that for reasons both of moral justice and strategic concerns over U.S. national interests in the Middle East, it was necessary to reach a solution that would be fair to the Palestinians. The best solution, Truman thought—and this is clearly Judis’ own preference—would have been the establishment not of the Jewish state of Israel but of some kind of binational Jewish-Palestinian state or federation.

Such a solution in 1948 would have meant that the Jews would have been the minority in the new state, and for that reason it was bitterly opposed by the Zionist movements in Palestine and the United States. Faced with this difficult decision, Judis argues—persuasively supported by the highly detailed evidence he has assembled—Truman backed down from his own moral and strategic preferences. Facing the presidential national election of 1948, in which he was the underdog, Truman and his political advisers overrode the strong objections of the State and Defense Departments and reluctantly bowed to political realities—foreshadowing the entire history of the U.S.-Israeli relationship and the central role played by what has come to be known as “the Israel lobby.”
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:11 PM on July 28, 2014 [3 favorites]




Unless I am wrong and it wasn't Charlie Rose and Meshal is talking to other Western journalists.

Like I said, I saw it on MSNBC or CNN. So I can't provide a link! But I do know that he said "no". It would not surprise me if it was video of the transcript you link and they cut immediately after the "no" without the full context.

That would be quite disappointing but not surprising

It would also mean I would have even less confidence in anything I see on CNN or MSNBC.
posted by Justinian at 2:58 PM on July 28, 2014


Ok I watched a clip of the Charlie Rose thing and that does look like what I saw. That's... not good. Since it gave a very contextless and un-nuanced picture of his answer.
posted by Justinian at 3:03 PM on July 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


The reporting of his answer I mean, not his answer.
posted by Justinian at 3:03 PM on July 28, 2014


It's par for the course, Justinian. A central aspect in maintaining the occupation is media influence/manipulation, and it's rampant and widespread in the US.
posted by cell divide at 4:07 PM on July 28, 2014


Cell Divide, that's a classic anti-Semitic claim dressed up as "anti-Zionism".
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:47 PM on July 28, 2014


as if there weren't plenty of american fundamentalist evangelicals and hard-line anti-islam hawks to influence the media and government, too
posted by pyramid termite at 5:12 PM on July 28, 2014


It's pretty obvious that both sides are using the media for propaganda purposes. It'd be a rather incompetent military or militant group which did not try to do that.
posted by Justinian at 5:21 PM on July 28, 2014


There's a difference between saying that "both sides are using the media for propaganda purposes" and saying that Israel's "media influence/manipulation [is] rampant and widespread in the US."

The former is a statement about the role of propaganda in wartime; the latter is a conspiracy theory that uses the classic anti-Semitic trope of secret control for a sinister purpose.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:36 PM on July 28, 2014


except, as i've already pointed out, there are other players in the u s who are interested in spreading pro-israel propaganda
posted by pyramid termite at 5:42 PM on July 28, 2014


You're not the one who made the comment; your interpretation doesn't make contextual sense; and in any event, the whole point of the "secret puppetmasters" trope is that control is exercised through other entities. As Hamas' charter puts it, "they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests."
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:54 PM on July 28, 2014


You're not the one who made the comment; your interpretation doesn't make contextual sense;

the context is american political, social, and religious culture and how it shapes perception of the I/P conflict

as an australian, you aren't expected to understand this - and you don't

judging from that quote from hamas' charter, they don't understand us either - (freemasons, rotary clubs, the lions?) - that's conservative smallcity society right there - they can't sabotage it, they ARE it

the problem here is that you're taking extreme and idiotic statements from them and using them to tar people who point out "media influence/manipulation" as the same kind of thought - it isn't

it's a rare damn day when we get a straight story about anything in the u s media - and one doesn't have to resort to some protocols of zion bullshit to explain it - and cell divide wasn't

you should apologize to him
posted by pyramid termite at 6:37 PM on July 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


As a Jew, I am sickened and angered by the way the State of Israel has tried to inextricably link its "brand" to international Jewry as a whole. Politically linked anti-semitism obviously upsets, threatens, and scares me, but when so much of the mainstream Jewish establishment has been beating a decades-long drum of Israel as the sine qua non of global Jewish identity, I think there are more people to blame than just impoverished Palestinians who are angry about their children being murdered and thus seek a target. When I think about who makes me the most unsafe in the world as a Jew, my finger points most immediately to Israel and its policies.
posted by threeants at 7:45 PM on July 28, 2014 [26 favorites]


Is the accusation that CNN modified the Charlie Rose Show clip to misrepresent M'shall in support of Israel? I don't think that is likely. I do think MSNBC's mistreatment of Rula Jebreal seemed like it may be rooted in anti-Palestinian, anti-Arab racism. I don't want to diminish anti-Semitism because I think it is a serious problem in society and comes from a variety of sources; but it seems odd to me that so much emphasis is put on anti-Semitism when anti-Arab mobs are roaming around Israel beating up Arabs with baseball bats and even burning a Palestinian teenager alive, and there is ongoing mass-killing of Palestinians in Gaza.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:01 PM on July 28, 2014


From the Jewish Daily Forward, J.J. Goldberg translates a column from Israeli journalist Nahum Barnea: Israel's Latest Fib: 'Gaza Tunnels Were Surprise':

Nahum Barnea, commonly described as Israel’s most respected political journalist, has spent much of the past two weeks with the troops in Gaza and talking to general command in Tel Aviv. His weekly column in today’s Yediot Ahronot weekend supplement, which I have translated below, happens to say some of the things I’ve been writing over the past few weeks, so a bit of what you’ll read might sound familiar. But his sources are better than mine, better than anyone’s in fact, and he brings you up to date.

But the third section of his column is something new: He says Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has known for a long time about the network of tunnels under Gaza and the threat they pose, but he punted because he had other things on his agenda. Now he’s shocked — shocked! — to find there are networks of tunnels under Gaza!


The "How We Descended" section is an interesting Israeli take on the "war" you won't see on mainstream television in the US:

Intelligence assessments on the eve of the operation said that Hamas was battered: It couldn’t pay salaries, it couldn’t supply the population’s basic needs, the Arab world other than Qatar was boycotting it, and the reconciliation with Fatah was stalled. The assessments were correct. And then came the kidnapping of the three boys and Operation Brother’s Keeper.

Israel rearrests the prisoners freed in the Shalit deal and comes down hard on Hamas’s infrastructure in the West Bank. Hamas in Gaza doesn’t fire a shot. Rocket fire begins, but not by Hamas. We fire back. We interdict two attempts to attack soldiers, and in the third interdiction a Hamas operative is killed.

This was the first step in the cycle. We try to calm things down. They start firing. When they get to 25 or 30 rockets per day, we feel the need to respond. And we and they fall into the second step and then the third, the ground campaign. This is the history of Operation Protective Edge: Not a Hamas plot, not an Israeli conspiracy. A stumbling from one step to the next, like a ball that got away from its owner, caught by gravity.

posted by mediareport at 8:03 PM on July 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


Is the accusation that CNN modified the Charlie Rose Show clip to misrepresent M'shall in support of Israel? I don't think that is likely.

I didn't say that! First, it was either CNN or MSNBC. Secondly I didn't say they modified it just that they didn't play the whole context.
posted by Justinian at 8:52 PM on July 28, 2014


Secondly I didn't say they modified it just that they didn't play the whole context.

That's what I meant; sorry I wasn't clear. The question is did they remove context intentionally to misrepresent what M'shal was actually saying and Hamas's stated position?
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:01 PM on July 28, 2014


Mediareport, did you know that you can post a link rather than an entire article? It can be hard to read great slabs of text on an iPhone, which I frequently find myself doing. Anyway:

Hamas Still Blamed for Kidnappings

I don't think the kidnappings are especially relevant to the war, but it's interesting to see that this whole "Israel lied" controversy seems to be based on what one guy says he was told by a police commander, which in any event was more nuanced than had been reported.

I don't see the point of Goldberg's editorial in The Forward. Of course Netanyahu knew about the tunnels; they've been in the news repeatedly. I think everybody (except Hamas) was surprised by the extent and sophistication of them, as well as by the number that led so far into Israel. I can't imagine that Israel would have tolerated the one which reportedly exited near an Israeli kindergarten, for instance, if they had known it was there. So it's basically Goldberg saying that Netanyahu knew the tunnels were a threat, but decided not to do anything about it at that time. Now that there's a war on, he's not going to tolerate them any more.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:27 PM on July 28, 2014


My impression is that it's pretty openly acknowledged that there was deliberate misinformation around the kidnapping. (link 4 has more information). The full tapes were eventually leaked to the public, and the evidence uncontroversial.

Summarized from a few threads floating around Reddit ---

---only Israeli sources---

Since the 2012 ceasefire Hamas has refrained from rocket attacks on Israel. I know what you're thinking - rockets were coming out of Gaza and landing in Israel between November 2012 and now, and that's definitely true. But these rockets didn't come from Hamas and more importantly, Hamas was trying to stop them.

Hamas deploys 600-strong force to prevent rocket fire at Israel

Hamas arrests terror cell responsible for rocket fire on Israel

An Israeli army general says Hamas is stopping attacks against Israel and even ‘keeps the peace’ when the IDF operates along the border.

Details of the ’100′ call (the local equivalent of 911) and what investigators discovered in the car used for the kidnapping of three Israeli teens earlier this month were well known by security service heads, top ministers — and even journalists — early on in the affair; but not by the public because it was all placed and kept under a tightly held gag order. As this all happened, Israel's government was blaming Hamas for the kidnapping of the teens - despite showing no evidence to support that claim.

But despite all of this, Hamas didn't react. They continued trying to stop the rocket attacks on Israel and were hoping that the unity government that was just set up would give them a diplomatic way to deal with the prisoners.

Keep in mind that while these attacks didn't come from Hamas (Hamas takes responsibility for their attacks, they denied involvement in the ones preceding the Israeli retaliation) Israel would always strike Hamas targets in retaliation.

Then came the straw that broke the camel's back, at least for Hamas:

Hamas has had no interest in a major escalation, and had not been directly attacking Israel until the last few days. But ever since one of its members, Mohammed Obeid, was killed in an Israeli border attack at the end of last month — an apparent error: the IDF thought it was firing at a rocket-launch cell, but actually struck Hamas members deployed to prevent rocket fire — it has changed its approach.

That was when the rocket firing started in earnest, with Hamas now claiming responsibility for them.
posted by xdvesper at 11:00 PM on July 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


The article on 972mag blames the Israeli government for lying, because
The blood found in the car, the sound of gun shots in the emergency call, evidence of live ammunition and the fact that there hasn’t been a single instance of two or more people being held hostage in the West Bank in decades – all that led to a single logical assumption: the teens were no longer alive.
That's certainly good reason for thinking that one or more of the kids might be dead, but I don't think the government should have presumed that to be the case. They certainly shouldn't have assumed that all three were dead. Would you want them making that assumption, if your child had been among the victims?
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:20 PM on July 28, 2014


They certainly shouldn't have assumed that all three were dead.

Can you take me step-by-step thorough how a policy of acting on this assumption would legitimately warrant the mass arrests and collective punishment of hundreds of people with no connection to the criminal incident?
posted by mikelieman at 11:27 PM on July 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Can you tell me what you mean by "collective punishment"? What I saw was a criminal investigation under very trying circumstances. Many Palestinians, regrettably, tried to stymie the investigation, and I suspect that this may have justified some of the arrests.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:12 AM on July 29, 2014




Israel-Gaza conflict: Baby girl born by Caesearan after mother is killed in air strike
posted by gman at 3:28 AM on July 29, 2014


Israeli media apprantly knew they were dead and kept mum because of a gag order (from a source).
posted by alon at 3:58 AM on July 29, 2014


Daily Beast: Israel Creates 'No Man's Land' in Gaza, Shrinking Strip by 40%
This narrow strip of land that used to be called “the Gaza Strip,” already one of the more densely populated places on earth, is growing dramatically smaller. The Israeli military, relentlessly and methodically, is driving people out of the three-kilometer (1.8 mile) buffer zone it says it needs to protect against Hamas rockets and tunnels. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the buffer zone eats up about 44 percent of Gaza’s territory.
UK Independent: Zayn Malik on Israel-Gaza: One Direction singer bombarded with Twitter death threats after posting #FreePalestine
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:03 AM on July 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


The question is did they remove context intentionally to misrepresent what M'shal was actually saying and Hamas's stated position?

I have no reason to believe that Justinian misrepresented what he remembers he saw (apart from basic human error) so my guess is that whatever station he was watching ended the clip right after M'shal said 'No'.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:48 AM on July 29, 2014


Video of an Israeli mob singing in celebration of deaths of Palestinian children: "In Gaza there’s no studying, No children are left there, Olé, olé, olé-olé-olé!"
posted by raztaj at 4:49 AM on July 29, 2014


Video of an Israeli mob singing in celebration of deaths of Palestinian children: "In Gaza there’s no studying, No children are left there, Olé, olé, olé-olé-olé!"

I can't even.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:53 AM on July 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


If anyone is interested in some actual scholarship on bias in the US media's coverage of Israel and not interested in stupid accusations of Antisemitism, here is scholarship on the issue:

Eye on Israel: How America Came to View Israel as an Ally by Michelle Mart

Epic Encounters: Culture, Media, and U.S. Interests in the Middle East since 1945 by Melanie McAlister

Imagining the Middle East: The Building of an American Foreign Policy, 1918-1967 by Matthew Jacobs

Covering Islam: How the Media and the Experts Determine How We See the Rest of the World by Edward Said

Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People by Jack Sheehan

The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy by John Mearshimer and Steve Walt.

Beyond Alliance: Israel and U.S. Foreign Policy by Camille Mansour
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:01 AM on July 29, 2014 [9 favorites]


Joyful Israeli youths sing: youtube
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:24 AM on July 29, 2014


via AP: Senior Palestinian official offers 24 hour truce in Gaza, says he's also speaking for Hamas.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 AM on July 29, 2014


Mod note: A few comments deleted. Completely drop the remarks/accusations directed toward others members; do not make this personal.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:17 AM on July 29, 2014


so my guess is that whatever station he was watching ended the clip right after M'shal said 'No'.

Which misrepresents him terribly. I'm still not convinced CNN or MSNBC did it intentionally for that reason though, but maybe.
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:19 AM on July 29, 2014


Al Jazeera: Gaza's sole power plant shut down by shelling
posted by gman at 6:51 AM on July 29, 2014




Humanize Palestine
posted by threeants at 7:35 AM on July 29, 2014




I had posted Golden Eternity's Maya Mikdashi link as an FPP, but it was deleted. I understand the mods' reasoning, but I am pretty disappointed nonetheless, as I felt it was a really sharp piece of critical analysis with significant merit and was looking forward to reading the discussion of it here on MeFi.
posted by threeants at 7:38 AM on July 29, 2014


via AP: Senior Palestinian official offers 24 hour truce in Gaza, says he's also speaking for Hamas.
posted by roomthreeseventeen


Reports are coming in denying a unified PLO plan - PLO says factions offer 24-hour Gaza truce, but Hamas appears to deny deal:
A senior Palestinian Liberation Organization official said Tuesday that all Palestinian factions have offered a 24-hour cease-fire in Gaza, but minutes later Hamas appeared to reject the plan. The possible development came after a night of heavy Israeli shelling that shut down the territory’s only power plant.

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a PLO executive committee member, said that all Palestinian factions had agreed on the offer, and that a unified delegation had been sent to Cairo to talk about the next steps.

"The factions, including Hamas and [Islamic] Jihad, are prepared for a 24-hour truce and Israel will be held the responsible if it doesn't accept the truce as well," he said. "There is a proposal from the U.N. to extend the truce to 72 hours. And we look favorably upon that."

But Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri denied that the group had agreed to the truce, with Palestinian website Maan news citing him as saying that "Yasser Abed Rabbu's statement that Hamas agreed to a cease-fire for 24 hours is not true and has nothing to do with the resistance's stand."
posted by rosswald at 8:26 AM on July 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israeli Soldier Leaks Accounts of Revenge Attacks Against Civilians by Troops in Gaza
Source: Eran Efrati
In one of the videos uploaded to YouTube, a young Palestinian man Salem Shammaly calls the names of his family and looking for them between the ruins when he is suddenly shot at in his chest and falls down. A few seconds after that, there are two additional shots from snipers into his body, killing him instantly.

Since the video was released, there was no official response from the IDF spokesperson. Today I can report that the official command that was handed down to the soldiers in Shuja'eyya was to capture Palestinian homes as outposts. From these posts, the soldiers drew an imaginary red line, and amongst themselves decided to shoot to death anyone who crosses it. ...

I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians.
When I served, the Israeli military was the most moral in the world. No more
I believed with all my heart that we were doing what needed to be done. If there were casualties, they were a necessary evil. If there were mistakes, they would be investigated.

Things have changed, and now I can no longer have that certainty. ...

What’s worse is that almost no one protests. Entire families are erased in a second, and the Israeli public remains indifferent. ...

I know how hard it is to ask questions during times of conflict as a soldier. The information that the officers get in real time is always partial. That’s why the responsibility for drawing the red lines, and alerting when we cross it, lies with the public. A clear, loud voice that says that bombing a house with civilians in it is immoral must be heard. These killings cannot be accepted without question. Public silence in the face of such actions – inside and outside of Israel – is consent by default, and acceptance of an unacceptable price.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:58 AM on July 29, 2014 [4 favorites]














Reuters: Israel intensifies Gaza assault, Egyptians revise truce plan "A Tel Aviv University poll published on Tuesday found 95 percent of Israel's Jewish majority felt the offensive was justified"
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:40 PM on July 29, 2014


Jonathan Chait: Why I Have Become Less Pro-Israel
The story further reveals that Netanyahu appeared on several occasions to approach the brink of agreement, but pulled back in the face of right-wing pressure within his coalition. Numerous figures in the story attempt to plumb the Israeli Prime Minister’s psychology — does he truly have it in him to go over the brink and make peace, or is he merely bluffing? — but the exercise turns out to be ultimately futile. Either Israeli politics or Netanyahu’s own preferences kept Netanyahu from striking a deal. And since that failure, the most moderate leadership the Palestinians ever had, and probably ever will have, has been marginalized.

Viewed in this context, the campaign of Israeli air strikes in Gaza becomes a horrifying indictment. It is not just that the unintended deaths of Palestinians is so disproportionate to any corresponding increase in security for the Israeli targets of Hamas’s air strikes. It is not just that Netanyahu is able to identify Hamas’s strategy — to create “telegenically dead Palestinians” — yet still proceeds to give Hamas exactly what it is after. It is that Netanyahu and his coalition have no strategy of their own except endless counterinsurgency against the backdrop of a steadily deteriorating diplomatic position within the world and an inexorable demographic decline. The operation in Gaza is not Netanyahu’s strategy in excess; it is Netanyahu’s strategy in its entirety. The liberal Zionist, two-state vision with which I identify, which once commanded a mainstream position within Israeli political life, has been relegated to a left-wing rump within it.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:43 PM on July 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


Would most people in this thread support a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza? Although given the history of UN peacekeeping forces I'd be afraid they'd stand around and observe rather than actually do anything.
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on July 29, 2014


Iran is calling for Muslim nations to arm Hamas! This will end well.
posted by Justinian at 3:28 PM on July 29, 2014


Justinian:

Peacekeeping works. There is very convincing evidence at all levels: large-N studies, oral histories, game theoretical models. This is something that's studied pretty extensively in the IR literature. Obviously its not a panacea, but it works in that it reduces violence. The best resource for this is Page Fortna's brilliant work.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:00 PM on July 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


I am glad at least one other person recognizes that Iran does play a role and is relevant in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
posted by rosswald at 4:07 PM on July 29, 2014


UN peacekeeping force in Gaza

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think finding nations willing to join a peace-keeping force will be equally as hard as getting Israelis and Palestinians themselves to accept one. The upside is I can't think of any other solution : /
posted by rosswald at 4:16 PM on July 29, 2014


I'd imagine most folks here would favor almost anyone besides Israel, or many Islamic states, in Gaza, so yeah send in the U.N. if they want it.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:17 PM on July 29, 2014


Would most people in this thread support a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza? Although given the history of UN peacekeeping forces I'd be afraid they'd stand around and observe rather than actually do anything.

It makes sense to me, as long as Israel foots the bill for the operation, Qatar has already offered $400M in humanitarian aid to Gaza as I understand it. Maybe it would be possible to use Egyptian, Jordanian, and Palestinian Authority troops for the most part?

I don't think the Israeli far-right (which is becoming the mainstream in Israel apparently) would support it, because to them UN = Hamas apparently; if they did they would require the complete disarmament of Hamas (which I agree with, but Hamas probably wouldn't accept). And Hamas wouldn't support it without concessions that Israel's current government would refuse to make - opening the borders, fishing rights, farming rights, humanitarian funding from Qatar, etc. I think the far-right's solution is to obliterate Gaza and starve it into submission until it accepts whatever Israel offers - probably less than half the land they possess now, and even less water and land rights. Israel is in complete control of the situation so it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It is up to Israelis to decide to do the right thing, and it doesn't look like that's going to happen. I guess the real question is does the UN impose sanctions on Israel at some point for refusing a UN peacekeeping solution?
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:36 PM on July 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


There are currently UN peacekeepers in Lebanon. Their mandate includes
taking steps towards the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an area free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the Government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL deployed in this area.
In other words, they were supposed to disarm Hezbollah after the 2006 Israel/Hezbollah war, and stop it rearming. They were wholly ineffective at this, partly because (as I understand it) their standing orders are to avoid confrontation. On at least one occasion a UNIFIL jeep with armed personnel in got out of their car and walked away because someone from Hezbollah told them to.

There is presently a "multinational force" in the Sinai peninsula, monitoring the peace there. They have been mostly successful, in that they aren't actually expected to do anything but monitor the peace. They haven't prevented non-Egyptian attacks from Sinai, or Hamas' weapons trade, but they're not expected to. They replaced the UN force that was peacekeeping along the Egypt/Israel border until 1967, when Egypt told them to leave so they wouldn't get in the way of the Egyptian army. They did.

There is also a UN "observer force" in the Golan Heights, between Israel and Syria. They've actually done a pretty good job in preventing and discouraging low-level conflict, and easing border issues, but the present conflict in Syria has made life dangerous for them and it's very likely that they will be pulled out.

Anyway, even if you could get the UN to agree to station troops in Gaza, and even if you could get member countries to supply those troops, I find it hard to believe that they'd be better at their job than UNIFIL, or less accommodating than UNEF, or less fearful than UNDOF.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:01 PM on July 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


New Yorker: Collective Punishment in Gaza

IMEMC: Israeli Soldier Leaks Accounts of Revenge Attacks Against Civilians by Troops in Gaza

UK Guardian: Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child "Captain R (after killing the girl) 'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'"

Haaretz: Israeli university rebukes professor who expressed sympathy for both Israeli, Gazan victims "'The matter will be handled with appropriate seriousness,’ says 'shocked’ Bar-Ilan University dean after students, parents complain."

Politico: Harry Reid: Israel may need more aid

Hollywood Reporter: Why Young Hollywood Is More Willing to Question Israel's Policies
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:18 PM on July 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


Wow
Prof. Hanoch Sheinman’s email was sent to reassure his second-year law students that because the security situation had disrupted many students’ routines, there would be an additional date scheduled for his course’s final exam. Sheinman opened the email, however, by saying that he hoped the message “finds you in a safe place, and that you, your families and those dear to you are not among the hundreds of people that were killed, the thousands wounded, or the tens of thousands whose homes were destroyed or were forced to leave their homes during, or as a direct result of, the violent confrontation in the Gaza Strip and its environs.”

Sheinman’s reference to the victims of the fighting with no reference to their national affiliation led many students to complain to the dean of the law faculty, Prof. Shahar Lifshitz, who issued an urgent message to the students yesterday. “I was shocked to learn of the email sent to you by Professor Sheinman,” Lifshitz wrote. “It was a hurtful letter ... Both the content and the style of the letter contravene the values of the university and the law faculty"
And "Bar-Ilan University is a public university in Ramat Gan of the Tel Aviv District, Israel. Established in 1955, Bar Ilan is now Israel's second-largest academic institution."

Israel is going off the deep end.
posted by crayz at 8:08 PM on July 29, 2014 [8 favorites]


Joe, something has to be tried at this point. If they could get a peacekeeping force into Gaza which is actually supposed to enforce peace militarily if necessary it can't be worse than what is currently happening. It's not like Israel can't always start blowing the shit out of Gaza again later.

Woops, CNN is reporting that more rockets have been found hidden in another UN school in Gaza. Good job, UN.
posted by Justinian at 8:09 PM on July 29, 2014


Apparently Bibi already has the solution: 'let IDF "win."'
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:33 PM on July 29, 2014


I'm all in favor of trying something new. I'm sceptical that you could get UN member countries to send troops, even if you could get the UN to agree to establish a peacekeeping force. Israel has lost more than fifty soldiers without even trying to police the area, just destroy rocket sites and search for tunnels. If Hamas opposed the UN intervention (and surely they would) I think the peacekeepers would all be killed in very short order.

Ultimately, Hamas needs to be rejected by Gazans. I presume it already is, as I said upthread, which is why Hamas bans elections and uses "secret police and public hangings". The problem is that Hamas is very well armed and very well motivated, so it's hard to see a non-violent resistance changing things. Don't take this to mean I think international intervention is a bad idea, though.

As for the rockets in the UN school, this is my surprised face.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:35 PM on July 29, 2014


Israel has lost more than fifty soldiers without even trying to police the area, just destroy rocket sites and search for tunnels.

I really can't take anything you say seriously when it's littered with this bullshit. Was this entire neighborhood a rocket site or a tunnel - I just can't tell. It's hard to believe the UN would have to lose as many soldiers as Israel has been unless the blue hats were going around trying to level Gaza to the ground the way the IDF is. Although they'd certainly suffer some casualties from the right-wing fanatics in Israel and the settlements.
posted by crayz at 8:42 PM on July 29, 2014


It is not hard to level a neighborhood with heavy artillery without taking losses. It is harder to find and defend against tunnels. It is sad to see IDF soldiers lose their lives defending their country from tunnel attacks. What shocked me about Joe's comment was the lack of any mention of the hundreds of children massacred by IDF artillery fire and airstrikes. I understand Palestinian casualties are not really talked about in most Israeli media. I guess this was true in the US during the Iraq and Afghan wars, but not to the same extent I don't think.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:03 PM on July 29, 2014


Crayz, I watched that video in slow motion. There appear to be a lot of secondary explosions, where an IDF attack (I presume) sets off a chain of others. There also seem to be tunnel demolitions, which inevitably destroy buildings they run under. Beit Hanoun has been a notorious arms production site for years, and is about as close as you can get to Sderot - less than four kilometers away. It's right on the front lines, and is exactly where you would expect to find Hamas' missiles and the start of its tunnels. So you tell me - should Israel have left those rockets in place? Should they have tried going door-to-door, in a place that's definitely full of explosives, and probably booby trapped? There's a war on, and attacking the enemies munitions is the least bad thing they can do.

Golden Eternity, I support the prosecution of any Israeli soldiers who have committed war crimes, including but not limited to the unlawful killing of children. I suspect that the numbers killed may be somewhat less than your estimates, and I'm pretty sure that Hamas is directly responsible for a large proportion of Palestinian children's deaths. None the less, my statement stands.

As for lawful killings, I regret any and all deaths - Israelis, Palestinians, soldiers, civilians, children and adults. I might have difficulty grieving for the untimely death of Khaled Meshaal, but the same principle applies. Despite this, I think that Israel has a duty to protect its citizens with all lawful methods, even when it is statistically certain to cause deaths. Israel isn't Batman.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:35 PM on July 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


There have been lots of stories about Hamas influence on local reporters, but this guy seems to have collated the major ones: Media cover-up of Hamas crimes starting to unravel. The Elder of Ziyon also asks what happened to approximately 2,000 Palestinian rockets that didn't make it out of Gaza: Rocket tally from IDF much lower than from Gaza groups. That percentage is higher than, but still consistent with the NGO figures for rocket misfires I listed above. Eye witnesses have reportedly seen Hamas members clearing away debris from rocket misfires, but inside Gaza there's a lot of pressure to keep quiet about things like this.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:53 PM on July 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


I think that Israel has a duty to protect its citizens with all lawful methods

Based on what laws? The Palestinian civilians didn't get much say in the laws being used to slaughter them. If Israel's laws allow for levelling entire neighborhoods, shelling shelters and schools, or too near to them to assure their safety, knocking out the only power station in Gaza, and the other atrocities we are seeing on a daily basis in response to the rockets fired at Israel, they are unjust and immoral laws and must be changed. The IDF doesn't have to be batman to avoid shelling hospitals and schools full of children which it is well documented they are doing. And the evidence strongly suggests the IDF is seeking retribution not protection.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:20 PM on July 29, 2014


Based on what laws?

The Geneva Conventions, primarily.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:21 PM on July 29, 2014


Acually, if somehow the IDF comes up with some technical reason why targeting civilians unnecessarily, which in this situation in Gaza I think is always the case, or near enough to them that killing them is a high probability technically meets the Geneva Convention, I think it is still immoral. There seems to be a big problem with the IDF lacking respect for civilian lives in Gaza, especially children. The story about that thirteen year old girl, my God!
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:38 PM on July 29, 2014


Isn't the point here that the IDF doesn't worry about casualties amongst human shields? America doesn't worry about that either. Does anyone? Yeah, it's surely illegal to ignore human shields, just like it's illegal to use them, but good luck enforcing either.

We probably need some military commanders to do jail time based upon killing civilians who they deemed to be human shields, but who the courts decided were not human shields. At least that'd set a president for actually thinking about it, rather than simple declaring anyone who gets in the way a human shield.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:36 AM on July 30, 2014


All "the IDF is seeking retribution" stories referred to IDF ground forces seeking retribution for IDF soldiers killed on the ground in Gaza, Golden Eternity. IDF areal attacks aren't afaik influenced by "retribution". And remember U.S. forces did exactly the same thing in Fallujah, with similar a similar civilian death toll.

Any thoughts on sending in U.S. troops with the mandate to : Alleviate the humanitarian crisis, control Gaza's ports thus ending the Israeli blockade, shut down tunnels used to approach Israel or store weapons, and capture anyone firing rockets as Israel. At least Israel could not continue operations while U.S. forces were there.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:54 AM on July 30, 2014


Given all that Gaza civilian infrastructure now reduced to rubble, the IDF is either not very good at targeting targets or are we witnessing, once more, the implementation of the Dahiya doctrine
posted by Mister Bijou at 12:54 AM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


So Hamas is so incompetent many of their weapons explode, killing civilians that the IDF then gets blamed for, but so wily and devious as to construct and operate miles of catacombs through which it can run a vast paramilitary organization; Hamas is so callous and detached it forces the local population to serve as human shields, yet so integrated in Gazan society (i.e., they are Gazans) that not only is civilian infrastructure fair game, but local humanitarian workers cannot be trusted (they use UN schools to hide militants and weapons, they use hospitals and morgues to inflate the death toll, et cetera.)


Is that about right?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:19 AM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


It's absolutely incontrovertible that many of Hamas' rockets explode. I don't know whether it's because they're incompetent; I think rockets are actually quite hard to build. In any event, I summarised NGO reports from Gaza before the recent war, and about a third of rockets apparently explode prematurely or land within Gaza.

As for the "miles of catacombs", it's funny you should say that, because this article says that 160 Palestinian children were killed building tunnels in Gaza: Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Tunnels. Now, the article's a bit misleading: its source is an article that refers to tunnels constructed between Gaza and Egypt before 2012, but I don't suppose Hamas' methods have changed much.

Finally, once again, it is absolutely incontrovertible that Hamas stores weapons in UN schools; we have had three reports from the UN about it during this war alone. It's also undeniable that many UN workers in Gaza work for Hamas; once again, this is what the UN (i.e., UNRWA) says. I suppose there are many genuine humanitarian workers unaffiliated with Hamas who might report what's going on, but Hamas are the ones with the guns.... Bits and pieces of the true state of affairs leak out anyway: reporters who leave Gaza (permanently) and file their stories from outside, or who conceal offhand references to "nearby militants" in a story set in a hospital.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:41 AM on July 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Top Secret Hamas Command Bunker in Gaza Revealed
The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker, however, not because they are trying to score propaganda points, or because it has been repeatedly mentioned in passing by Western reporters—but because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:46 AM on July 30, 2014


I have no idea how often Hamas rockets explode or how many people they kill when they do but its definitely true that you don't have to be incompetent for your rockets to explode. Hell, a rocket is in some ways just a vehicle riding on top of what you hope is a controlled explosion pointing downwards. It doesn't take much for that to turn into an uncontrolled explosion going everywhere.
posted by Justinian at 2:28 AM on July 30, 2014




AJE: Deadly Israeli shelling hits Gaza UN school (for some reason I'm able today to access AJE from America... get it while it's hot!)

AJE: Shujayea: Massacre at Dawn "A powerful film with exclusive footage from the day of the Israeli assault on the densely populated Shujayea district."

Haaretz: With Zoabi’s suspension, Knesset moves toward fascism

Juan Cole: Israel Bombs Gaza back to Stone Age: Razes only Power Plant & Plunges Strip into Darkness

UK Guardian: Israel is finding it harder to deny targeting Gaza infrastructure

UK Guardian: Susan Rice launches staunch defence of Israel despite 'alarming' Gaza death toll

Stanford University is doing a series on Palestine on its blog.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:47 AM on July 30, 2014 [5 favorites]


I have no idea how often Hamas rockets explode or how many people they kill when they do

You can become an expert pretty quickly by watching videos in slow motion.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:48 AM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


So did the Israeli propagandists drop the line that it was really Hamas who bombed the UN school? Or is that still going on?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:49 AM on July 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


for some reason I'm able today to access AJE from America

You can always access AJE from America, but its a bit of a pain. When AJ-America loads, just scroll all the way down to the page's footer - there is a link there to AJE. Useful for when you need multiple articles and op-eds calling Israel evil.
posted by rosswald at 5:09 AM on July 30, 2014


Which UNWRA school? I am losing track of the number of UNWRA schools that have been hit. For the latest UNRWA school incident, the IDF says it shelled the place but blames Hamas for allegedly not firing from the school but from the vicinity.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:11 AM on July 30, 2014


Op-ed in the NYT:

What I cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians like Salam Fayyad in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children.

This, as a Zionist, I cannot accept...No argument, no Palestinian outrage or subterfuge, can gloss over what Jewish failure the killing of children in such numbers represents.

posted by mediareport at 5:13 AM on July 30, 2014 [6 favorites]


According to UNRWA, six of its schools have been struck. And it seems to be cautiously trying to distinguish between ones it believes were struck by Israel ("Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery ...") and ones struck by Hamas ("struck by explosive projectiles ..."). Which is nice.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:20 AM on July 30, 2014


Politico: Harry Reid: Israel may need more aid

Fuck the UN troops. This is a job for the United States MARINES. We go in there, disarm everyone, and give them Real "One-Nation-With-Liberty-And-Justice-For-All" Democracy!
posted by mikelieman at 5:24 AM on July 30, 2014


So Israel bombed a UNRWA school. Definitively.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:28 AM on July 30, 2014


Time-lapse shows air strikes destroying entire neighbourhood in one hour: UK's Daily Telegraph
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:41 AM on July 30, 2014 [1 favorite]




I don't have the proper words to talk about this picture. Here is the translation, though:

This [is] Amy Ibrahim Masri, who is 4. Lives with her ​​family in Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip. Yesterday we met her at the hospital Muqassad East Jerusalem. On Wednesday (9/7) morning, the day after the start of the offensive on the Gaza Strip, she went with her mother, her sisters and brother to her aunt. On their way, when they were close to the aunt, they were attacked by a drone fired two missiles on them. Amy was holding a big sister all the time, and the fragments of the first missile flew on both. The family wanted a place to try to save the victims. Amy's mother, two brothers and cousin were killed by the second missile. Sister, was hit with her, suffered internal bleeding and died after a short time later. Amy was conscious the whole time and saw everything.

Amy's body from shrapnel penetrated the front of the body and out the back, and she developed internal bleeding. Aunt, who is her from injury, took her to the Shifa hospital in Beit Hanoun. Shifa tests she began to vomit blood, and was operated on twice. The bleeding has not stopped, so she was transferred to Makassed. Due to the lack of suitable equipment was transferred to the hospital after adjustments Muqassad East Jerusalem.

Gaza is under siege for seven years and occupied for forty-seven years. We know that there will not be a military solution to the ongoing violent repression. Israeli citizens understand security and freedom involves safety and freedom of the Palestinians. Iron Dome may be able to repel rockets, but you can not intercept the basic desire so and human freedom and dignity for the millions of Palestinians.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:56 AM on July 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Stanford University Press Blog: Racism is the foundation of Israel's Operation Protective Edge by Joel Beinin, Donald J. McLachlan Professor of History at Stanford University and past president of the Middle East Studies Association of North America
Racism has become a legitimate, indeed an integral, component of Israeli public culture, making assertions like these seem “normal.” The public devaluation of Arab life enables a society that sees itself as “enlightened” and “democratic” to repeatedly send its army to slaughter the largely defenseless population of the Gaza Strip
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:05 AM on July 30, 2014 [4 favorites]




Jonathan Chait: Why I Have Become Less Pro-Israel
posted by tonycpsu


A good article. Some further quotes:
A foundational basis for liberal Zionist support for Israel is the fact that, during the last major negotiations in 2000, the Israeli government offered a reasonable statehood plan to Palestinians, and Palestinians rejected it and launched the second Intifada. (Critics of Israel have challenged this historical interpretation, unpersuasively.)

[...]

I don’t mean to overdramatize the change within my own thinking. While less sympathetic to Israel than before, I still find myself far more sympathetic to Israel than to Hamas. I still believe a two-state partition will happen eventually, though the odds are increasing that a catastrophe will be required to bring it about first. I also bitterly attribute the shriveling of the Israeli left to the Palestinian rejectionists who deliberately engineered this very outcome.
posted by rosswald at 8:03 AM on July 30, 2014


The AP has chimed in with their view of how this all ends - ANALYSIS: Amid war, endgames in Gaza emerge:
  • ISRAEL DECLARES VICTORY AND LEAVES
  • THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TAKES OVER THE BORDER WITH EGYPT
  • THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TAKES OVER GAZA

posted by rosswald at 8:10 AM on July 30, 2014




AP & BBC reporting 15 dead, more than 150 wounded in strike on busy Shejaiya, Gaza market.

Gilad Shalit's father: I would fight Israel if I were Palestinian
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:33 AM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


I'm reading 22 dead, according to Palestinian sources on twitter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:37 AM on July 30, 2014




Anonymous warns

Indeed, indeed. In November 2012.

(it says so on the web page)
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:47 AM on July 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


The International Community Must End Israel’s Collective Punishment of the Civilian Population in the Gaza Strip

As international and criminal law scholars, human rights defenders, legal experts and individuals who firmly believe in the rule of law and in the necessity for its respect in times of peace and more so in times of war, we feel the intellectual and moral duty to denounce the grave violations, mystification and disrespect of the most basic principles of the laws of armed conflict and of the fundamental human rights of the entire Palestinian population committed during the ongoing Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip. We also condemn the launch of rockets from the Gaza Strip, as every indiscriminate attack against civilians, regardless of the identity of the perpetrators, is not only illegal under international law but also morally intolerable. However, as also implicitly noted by the UN Human Rights Council in its Resolution of the 23th July 2014, the two parties to the conflict cannot be considered equal, and their actions – once again – appear to be of incomparable magnitude.

Once again it is the unarmed civilian population, the ‘protected persons’ under International humanitarian law (IHL), who is in the eye of the storm. Gaza’s civilian population has been victimized in the name of a falsely construed right to self-defence, in the midst of an escalation of violence provoked in the face of the entire international community. The so-called Operation Protective Edge erupted during an ongoing armed conflict, in the context of a prolonged belligerent occupation that commenced in 1967. In the course of this ongoing conflict thousands of Palestinians have been killed and injured in the Gaza Strip during recurrent and ostensible ‘ceasefire’ periods since 2005, after Israel’s unilateral ‘disengagement’ from the Gaza Strip. The deaths caused by Israel’s provocative actions in the Gaza Strip prior to the latest escalation of hostilities must not be ignored as well.

Contrary to Israel’s claims, mistakes resulting in civilian casualties cannot be justified: in case of doubt as to the nature of the target, the law clearly establishes that an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes (such as schools, houses, places of worship and medical facilities), are presumed as not being used for military purposes. During these past weeks, UN officials and representatives have repeatedly called on Israel to strictly abide by the principle of precaution in carrying out attacks in the Gaza Strip, where risks are greatly aggravated by the very high population density, and maximum restraint must be exercised to avoid civilian casualties. HRW has noted that these rules exist to minimize mistakes “when such mistakes are repeated, it raises the concern of whether the rules are being disregarded.”

Moreover, even when targeting clear military objectives, Israel consistently violates the principle of proportionality: this is particularly evident with regard to the hundreds of civilian houses destroyed by the Israeli army during the current military operation in Gaza. With the declared intention to target a single member of Hamas, Israeli forces have bombed and destroyed houses although occupied as residencies by dozens of civilians, including women, children, and entire families.

It is inherently illegal under customary international law to intentionally target civilian objects, and the violation of such a fundamental tenet of law can amount to a war crime. Issuing a ‘warning’ – such as Israel’s so-called roof knocking technique, or sending an SMS five minutes before the attack – does not mitigate this: it remains illegal to wilfully attack a civilian home without a demonstration of military necessity as it amounts to a violation of the principle of proportionality. Moreover, not only are these ‘warnings’ generally ineffective, and can even result in further fatalities, they appear to be a pre-fabricated excuse by Israel to portray people who remain in their homes as ‘human shields’.

The indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, the targeting of objectives providing no effective military advantage, and the intentional targeting of civilians and civilian houses have been persistent features of Israel’s long-standing policy of punishing the entire population of the Gaza Strip, which, for over seven years, has been virtually imprisoned by Israeli imposed closure. Such a regime amounts to a form of collective punishment, which violates the unconditional prohibition set forth in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and has been internationally condemned for its illegality. However, far from being effectively opposed international actors, Israel’s illegal policy of absolute closure imposed on the Gaza Strip has relentlessly continued, under the complicit gaze of the international community of States.
Joint Declaration by International Law Experts on Israel’s Gaza Offensive
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:03 AM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]




Humanize Palestine
Humanize Palestine attempts to restore the humanity that is often stripped away when Palestinians are reduced to calculative deaths, forgettable names, and burned and mutilated bodies, rather than people who shared loved ones, stories, dreams and aspirations.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2014


Given his background, what American Jewish leader Rabbi Henry Siegman has to say about Israel’s founding in 1948 through the current assault on Gaza may surprise you. From 1978 to 1994, Siegman served as executive director of the American Jewish Congress, long described as one of the nation’s "big three" Jewish organizations along with the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League. Born in Germany three years before the Nazis came to power in 1933, Siegman’s family eventually moved to the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement that pushed for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Siegman studied the religion and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas, later becoming head of the Synagogue Council of America. After his time at the American Jewish Congress, Siegman became a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project. In the first of our two-part interview, Siegman discusses the assault on Gaza, the myths surrounding Israel’s founding in 1948, and his own background as a German-Jewish refugee who fled Nazi occupation to later become a leading American Jewish voice and now vocal critic of Israel’s policies in the Occupied Territories.

"When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that we’re watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisis — and should be a profound crisis in the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success," Siegman says. Responding to Israel’s U.S.-backed claim that its assault on Gaza is necessary because no country would tolerate the rocket fire from militants in Gaza, Siegman says: "What undermines this principle is that no country and no people would live the way that Gazans have been made to live. … The question of the morality of Israel’s action depends, in the first instance, on the question, couldn’t Israel be doing something [to prevent] this disaster that is playing out now, in terms of the destruction of human life? Couldn’t they have done something that did not require that cost? And the answer is, sure, they could have ended the occupation."
Rabbi Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents"
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:07 AM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


As a personal favor to me, could you try to consolidate your links into fewer comments, and refrain from blockquoting more than, say two paragraphs each?

I'm a fan of the related linkdump, but spread out over so many comments with big cuts like that is killing my "Recent Activity."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:11 AM on July 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Will do. Last one: Isolating Gaza: The restriction of Palestinian movement in Gaza and elsewhere has long been a central tactic of the Israeli occupation.

Palestinians living in Gaza’s “open air prison” are not only targeted for attack, but also victimized by enforced immobility. Through years of policies of increasing control, closure, and blockade, Israel has created this vulnerability and is now deploying immobility as a lethal weapon. There is frequent reference in the media to the blockade imposed on Gaza in 2006 after Hamas won parliamentary elections, but the process of isolating Gaza began long before that. Understanding how immobility was imposed and then weaponized requires looking at the history of borders, movements, and constraints on motion that have defined this place since 1948.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:13 AM on July 30, 2014







‘Children killed in their sleep’: Israeli artillery fire hits UN school, killing at least 20
Israeli military fire hit a United Nations-run school in Gaza today, killing at least 20 people and injuring an estimated 90 people. The school under attack, called the Abu Hussein girls’ elementary school, is located in the densely-populated Jabaliya refugee camp.

The United Nations Relief Works and Agency (UNRWA), the group that serves Palestinian refugees, issued a stern statement placing the blame for the attack on the Israeli army.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 11:17 AM on July 30, 2014






This war in Gaza is not the first war I have covered, it isn't even the first war I've covered in Gaza. I've been to places like Syria and Libya, and seen some of the horrible things that are normal in armed conflict, and I've seen dead children before, but never like during this war in Gaza. Never so many, never so often.
Heartbreak: Reporting on Gaza’s child victims
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 12:25 PM on July 30, 2014


"Why does America continue its blind support of this one-sided exercise in ethnic cleansing? WHY? I just don't get it. I really hate to think its just the power of AIPAC… for if that's the case, then your government really is fundamentally corrupt." - Gaza and the loss of civilization
posted by jbickers at 1:16 PM on July 30, 2014 [6 favorites]




Heh:
Egypt To Broker Truce Between Obama, Israel

Tunnel found in UNRWA health clinic
Time for a new logo?

In which I am astonishingly prescient: Hamas expel Russia Today’s Harry Fear from Gaza for tweeting about Hamas rocket fire from civilian area
Similarly: Tales Of Lethal Journalism: Spanish Steps

Interesting: Channel 2 poll: 82% are satisfied with Netanyahu's performance during crisis, 10% not. (Last week 57%-35%). Twenty percent of Israel's population is Arab, 5% "other", only 75% Jewish.

That would be another twenty: Report: Hamas Executed 20 Palestinian Anti-War Protestors in Gaza
Look for their names on casualty lists: Hamas Police Shoot, Kill Starving Gazans a Day After Executing Protesters

Because Israel is magic! Interview with Hanan Ashrawi Also, apparently has destroyed 91 schools, only three of which had weapons.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:37 PM on July 30, 2014


Arab Leaders Silent, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel
“There is clearly a convergence of interests of these various regimes with Israel,” said Khaled Elgindy, a former adviser to Palestinian negotiators who is now a fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. In the battle with Hamas, Mr. Elgindy said, the Egyptian fight against the forces of political Islam and the Israeli struggle against Palestinian militants were nearly identical. “Whose proxy war is it?” he asked.

The dynamic has inverted all expectations of the Arab Spring uprisings. As recently as 18 months ago, most analysts in Israel, Washington and the Palestinian territories expected the popular uprisings to make the Arab governments more responsive to their citizens and therefore more sympathetic to the Palestinians and more hostile to Israel.
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:34 PM on July 30, 2014


Naughty, Naughty, now go kill some more.
US condemns shelling of UN school in Gaza but restocks Israeli ammunition.
Despicable..
posted by adamvasco at 5:37 PM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]




jbickers: “ Gaza and the loss of civilization”
Thanks for posting this, jbickers. Interestingly, my brother — who to my knowledge does not listen to talk radio or watch Fox News yet somehow absorbs the talking points of Rush, Sean, et al. apparently directly from the atmosphere here in deepest, reddest Georgia — believes that the ABC and NBC nightly news programs which we often watch during dinner are anti-Israel and full of Palestinian propaganda.

----

“Israel's 'Iron Dome' makers were hit by hackers, expert says,” Eric Auchard, Reuters, 29 July 2014
posted by ob1quixote at 6:09 PM on July 30, 2014


For me this was the most telling paragraph in ''Gaza and the loss of Civilization'' linked just upthread

I was in Israel last year with Mary. Her sister works for UNWRA in Jerusalem. Showing us round were a Palestinian - Shadi, who is her sister's husband and a professional guide - and Oren Jacobovitch, an Israeli Jew, an ex-major from the IDF who left the service under a cloud for refusing to beat up Palestinians. Between the two of them we got to see some harrowing things - Palestinian houses hemmed in by wire mesh and boards to prevent settlers throwing shit and piss and used sanitary towels at the inhabitants; Palestinian kids on their way to school being beaten by Israeli kids with baseball bats to parental applause and laughter; a whole village evicted and living in caves while three settler families moved onto their land; an Israeli settlement on top of a hill diverting its sewage directly down onto Palestinian farmland below; The Wall; the checkpoints… and all the endless daily humiliations. I kept thinking, "Do Americans really condone this? Do they really think this is OK? Or do they just not know about it?". (Emphasis mine)
posted by adamvasco at 6:15 PM on July 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


The Nation: Israel Must Stop Its Campaign of Terror: As world leaders fail to end the bloodletting in Gaza, it is up to civil society to demand justice for Palestinians.

The failure of the cease-fire proposals have left a void where impunity continues to flourish. Yet the diverse and humane currents of international civil society have been responding, issuing demands Washington is too timid to make. This includes the sixty-four Nobel laureates and public figures—among them Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Noam Chomsky—who have called for an international arms embargo on Israel. They include legal experts like John Dugard, Noura Erakat and Peter Weiss, who have demanded an end to Israel’s collective punishment in Gaza and the beginning of “procedures to hold accountable all those responsible for violations of international law.” They include Jewish groups like Jewish Voice for Peace, which has been tireless in defending Palestinian rights, and J Street, which is pressing for an end to the siege of Gaza. And they include the Palestinian civil society groups that have been steadfast in calling for nonviolent resistance by means of boycott, divestment and sanctions.

Jacobin: The Logic of Israeli Violence: Israeli violence isn’t senseless — it follows a colonial logic.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:23 PM on July 30, 2014


Here are some on the ground accounts, many of which are based in Gaza and actively tweeting the atrocities occurring right in front of their eyes:

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12
A Palestinian doctor living in #Gaza. A night owl and a book worm. belal90md@gmail.com

https://twitter.com/laraaburamadan
A Palestinian journalist, translator and a freelance photographer based in Gaza, palestine.

https://twitter.com/AhmdFarra
#Palestinian Sales Manager live's in #Gaza | #Anti_zionist | Tweet About #Palestine & What In My Mind | Interested in Politics | #Ghazzawi | Nervous

https://twitter.com/Jehadsaftawi
Photographer

https://twitter.com/WalaaGh
I don't exist.
Occupied Palestine - Gaza

https://twitter.com/Omar_Gaza
about.me/omar_ghraieb ~RTs ≠ endorsements! http://www.linkedin.com/pub/omar-ghraieb/9/b81/b89 …
Palestine
gazatimes.blogspot.com

https://twitter.com/NalanSarraj
I tweet about The City where I buried my father (Gaza). About what I want to see (our Galaxy). And every Crazy/Lunatic/fanatic thought I have.

https://twitter.com/Mogaza
Award winning journalist. These are my personal views. Always in search of features, have any talk to me http://bit.ly/x8rsIs

https://twitter.com/imPalestine
Raised in Gaza; a non-white Mohametan, in need of enlightenment; the uncivilised, barbaric, backward and inferior Other. LSE student; a future walking lie.

https://twitter.com/MaramGaza
Bury Your Fear .. #GazaUnderAttack
Gaza, Palestine

https://twitter.com/kim_tastiic
Introvert, bi, fem commie, anti-imperialist, anti islamophobia, animal rights

https://twitter.com/missyasin
Palestinian-American raised on a steady diet of hummus and fried chicken. World Editor at @micnews. Former @IndexCensorship. Views my own.

https://twitter.com/amarshabby
Human Rights Activist | Cynical Political Commentator | Literature Buff | Graffiti Enthusiast | Gender Revolutionist | Human Cat

https://twitter.com/lisang
Director of the Israel-Palestine Initiative at New America. Formerly in Jaffa, now in Brooklyn. Email: goldman@newamerica.org. Click on the link for my bio.

https://twitter.com/ISMPalestine
Solidarity. Justice. Freedom.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 6:39 PM on July 30, 2014 [10 favorites]


Wow, whyareyouatriangle, thanks for compiling those.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:53 PM on July 30, 2014


You're welcome. I have many more that I can post.

Also, an effective (perhaps obvious) way to find related accounts is to see who is following whom. The first account I listed brings up https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/following; many of which are pertinent.

These are urgent voices that need to be heard.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:04 PM on July 30, 2014


Those voices are being heard; it's the ones critical of Hamas that aren't. Take your first link, for example. He's a doctor, working in a hospital that notoriously is Hamas' headquarters. Not only does this make it a legitimate military target that will surely be attacked at some point, but there are videos showing Hamas' fighters barging in and demanding favored treatment, private rooms and so forth. If he's posting messages in support of Hamas then he must be absolutely, thoroughly compromised. He's effectively conspiring in war crimes against the population of Gaza.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:12 PM on July 30, 2014


Yes, this is great! There is an extremely critical need to see Palestinians as actual human beings to counter Israeli media in which Palestinian victims are either absent entirely or talked about as "Hamas" or "their people."
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:22 PM on July 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Al-Shifa Hospital is still the largest and oldest hospital in Gaza. Reporters previously used it as a safe spot to report from. Hamas's use of the hospital does not turn it into a legitimate military target, just as a physician working there is in no way complicit with whatever actions are happening around them. If you were presented with a slew of dead children I would hope that you too would support resistance.

No, Joe, these voices are not being heard. What's being heard is the loud voices of the IDF given its incredible propaganda machine, and those who take IDF briefings as reportage.

Shame.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:29 PM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


The hospital was attacked two days ago and you are now on record claiming a hospital to be a "legitimate military target."

Shame.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 7:33 PM on July 30, 2014


Congress passed (another) resolution in support of Israel today. I believe it was again unanimous though I'm having trouble tracking down the official vote count.
posted by Justinian at 7:36 PM on July 30, 2014






Hamas attacked Shifa hospital two days ago. Here's a copy of a report posted, but then deleted, by a journalist working in Gaza.

Hamas' attack was probably a mistake; yet another case of their weapons being more lethal to Gazans than to Israelis. But their use of Shifa hospital as headquarters and as a human shield isn't a mistake. It definitely removes the hospital from the protection given by the first and fourth Geneva conventions, and it probably counts as "perfidy", which means that it's a war crime in itself.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:52 PM on July 30, 2014


Interesting: a working paper submitted by Khaled Meshaal to a conference last November, in which he lays out his (Hamas'?) views. Google Translate.

My reading: he very explicitly refuses any territorial compromise with Israel whatsoever. He suggests that his organisation may join a pan-Palestinian government based within the so-called 1967 lines, but only if it does not amount to "recognising" Israel.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:57 PM on July 30, 2014


A warning from the former president of Germany's Central Council of Jews, Charlotte Knobloch: Jews should not be recognisable. (Google Translate)

This follows violence at a number of anti-Semitic rallies, and an attack on a synagogue using firebombs.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:52 PM on July 30, 2014


Weak weak weak. Everyone is well aware that Hamas commits war crimes like deliberate targeting of civilians, use of human shields, etc., etc. At least in this thread, I haven't seen anyone say that they actually like or cheer on Hamas.

However, no action by Hamas will ever give the IDF the right to bomb hospitals or schools or refugee centers where there are innocent civilians. If Israel wants to reclaim the moral high ground, they can start by following international law regarding the just administration of occupied territories and the sanctity of protected persons.

Three, THREE Israeli civilians have been killed by Hamas rockets since the beginning of this operation. And that should not have have happened. But in that time, an order of magnitude more people have been shot in my own city (Chicago) due to gang violence. And somehow the US military (not particularly known for its tact) has not yet bombed Stroger Hospital or sent the Marines into East Garfield Park.

Because this is madness. It is insane. It is the abhorrent and utterly disproven belief that you can bomb your way to peace, that you can beat the humanity right out of someone.

Of all the peoples and tribes of the Earth, the Israelis ought to know better.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:08 PM on July 30, 2014 [6 favorites]


no action by Hamas will ever give the IDF the right to bomb hospitals or schools or refugee centers where there are innocent civilians.

The Geneva Conventions expressly say the contrary. For instance, the First Convention, Article 19, says "The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy[....]" I highlighted the relevant word there, and in the next quotation. The Fourth convention, Article 21, has similar terms: "The protection to which fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy."

Using a hospital as a military base is not just a breach of the laws of war; it's a deliberate snub. The people who wrote Conventions were well aware that scoundrels might seek to take advantage of them. For this reason Article 51(7) of Additional Protocol I says
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations.
Furthermore, Article 37 of this Protocol defines "perfidy", which is a war crime in itself:
Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy.
I highlighted the relevant bit. Articles 38, 39, and 40 refer to other and additional war crimes that have been committed by Hamas.

Of all the peoples and tribes of the Earth, the Israelis ought to know better.

I take that to be an implicit reference to the Holocaust. If there is a lesson to be learned from that event it is probably one the Israelis know very well: don't sit back while people plot your extermination. But you know, justifying your ragging on Jews because they were nearly wiped out is a pretty low thing to do.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:48 PM on July 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


This thread reminds me of how I used to waste time arguing with the type of person willing to excuse anything.
posted by moorooka at 12:53 AM on July 31, 2014 [2 favorites]


A friend reminded me of this, today...

“This arrogant individual, whose power of authority and fear of losing it has gone to his head, has difficulty remembering he was once a man; he thinks he is a whip or a gun; he is convinced that the domestication of the "inferior races" is obtained by governing their reflexes. He disregards the human memory, the indelible reminders; and then, above all, there is this that perhaps he never knows: we only become what we are by radically negating deep down what others have done to us.”

― Jean-Paul Sartre's preface to Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth (Les Damnés de la Terre), 1961.
posted by Mister Bijou at 12:55 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israel bans radio ad listing dead childrens names, while Far-Right Israelis celebrate Gaza kids' deaths.

(But at least they're not sitting back while these kids plot their extermination.)
posted by moorooka at 12:59 AM on July 31, 2014


What the fuck are they holding back for is my question. Israel has a couple of hundred nuclear weapons lying around. Gaza's pretty small so one or two should be quite enough to put an end to all these terrorist rockets and tunnels once and for all. Furthermore it would be an entirely Geneva-Conventions-compliant nuking, as I have it on pretty good authority that the Gaza Strip is being used to store missiles.
posted by moorooka at 1:15 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


A blast from the not so distant past... Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:52 AM on July 31, 2014


schoolgirl-shield is the preferred nomenclature
posted by moorooka at 3:20 AM on July 31, 2014


There's a Wikipedia article about the shooting (which was also mentioned above). I don't know anything about the event other than what appears and is linked to from there, but I found this Counterpunch review (!) worth reading. Despite the impression given by the Guardian, it seems clear that "R" wasn't the one who killed her. He subsequently won a libel verdict against a reporter that claimed otherwise, as well as the broadcaster that employed her. The verdict was partially overturned on appeal, because the reporter didn't know the story was false at the time.

Also, I should point out that Iman was shot eight years ago. It's genuinely shocking, but is it relevant to this discussion in any way? I could post about other atrocities that are at least as bad, but what is the point? Is it just to get our hate on?
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:27 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


Good news, if true: The hidden picture in Gaza
In recent days, Hamas members seized UN food coupons and prevented Gazan civilians from receiving the aid, in order to try and keep field cell members fed. The Islamist regime refuses to publish most of the names of its members who were killed fighting the IDF, and disposes of their bodies quickly, to avoid harming morale. It has tried to ban Gazan civilians from giving interviews to the foreign press during humanitarian truces.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:31 AM on July 31, 2014


I posted the link. In retrospect, it would better have been attached to my post quoting J-P Sartre concerning an oppressor and the oppressed. Point taken.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:33 AM on July 31, 2014


Good news, if true:

"Hamas members seized UN food coupons and prevented Gazan civilians from receiving the aid".

Good spin, that's true.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:39 AM on July 31, 2014


How can Israel avoid killing civilians if Hamas is taking their food coupons? Not only that, they're burying their dead too quickly! The nefarious bastards!
posted by moorooka at 4:14 AM on July 31, 2014




The story is from Shifa hospital which is, as I keep pointing out, Hamas' "secret" headquarters. Every story from there is either written by Hamas, or checked by scary men with big guns. In any event, Gaza has had rolling power cuts for about a year. How were those infants managing until now? I rather suspect that the hospital has its own generators, like most hospitals (and in fact like most big buildings with elevators and basements and so forth), which means that the story is absolutely false.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:27 AM on July 31, 2014


Arab lies! Those incubators had missiles in them and Gaza was already so shit that blowing up its only power plant makes no difference anyway.

Yes Joe.
posted by moorooka at 4:47 AM on July 31, 2014 [6 favorites]


I mean, as the article mentions,

Many homes and institutions have their own generators, but fuel for those is running out, and without electricity to operate pumps, many people are going without water. At Shifa Hospital the generators are old and cranky and don’t always kick in right away.

But how typical that a Palestinian would lie about the tip-top shape of their hospital's generator! Anything to make Israel look like the bad guy!
posted by moorooka at 4:54 AM on July 31, 2014


Mister Bijou wrote: In retrospect, [the link referring to the killing of Iman Darweesh Al Hams] of would better have been attached to my post quoting J-P Sartre concerning an oppressor and the oppressed.

It's an odd choice of quotation, not least because the soldier mentioned in the article is actually Druze. Not even Fanon would have called him a "European colonialist".
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:57 AM on July 31, 2014


Why Hamas stores its weapons inside hospitals, mosques and schools
During one short-lived lull in rocket fire, The Washington Post’s William Booth saw a “group of men” at a mosque in northern Gaza. They said they had returned to clean up glass from shattered windows. “But they could be seen moving small rockets into the mosque,” Booth wrote. He also reported that Shifa Hospital in Gaza City had “become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.”

Wall Street Journal reporter Nick Casey tweeted an image of a Hamas spokesman giving an interview at a Gaza hospital. With the shelling, “You have to wonder…how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media.” The tweet was later deleted.

According to longtime Middle East analyst Matthew Levitt, Hamas has long planted weapons in areas inhabited by vulnerable residents. “It happens in schools,” he wrote in Middle East Quarterly. “Hamas has buried caches of arms and explosives under its own kindergarten playgrounds,” referencing a 2001 State Department report that said a Hamas leader was arrested after “additional explosives in a Gaza kindergarten” were discovered
posted by rosswald at 5:06 AM on July 31, 2014


Exactly. Knowing those Hamas bastards, anywhere in Gaza could have a weapon hidden inside or at least in the general vicinity.

Hence the whole place is pretty much fair game and anyone getting killed in Gaza should blame Hamas for having weapons and therefore turning them all into human-shields-for-weapons, whose killing is totally legit! And it's not as if it's something that Israel has any choice over - if the human wasn't there near that weapon they wouldn't be killed, but they are so they have to die even though Israel totally isn't trying to kill them, they're just, like, in the way. Obviously they should quit being shields since it's not working! Israel is trying to stop people from being human shields by proving to them that being a human shield will get you killed right dead, no matter how telegenic the corpse! Some "shield"!!!

And boy am I ever sick of this rubbish about a lopsided civilian death toll! Sure it's like, 2 Israelis to 800-900 Palestinians and counting, but if you multiply these numbers by how much the other side wants to kill them, then it's closer to infinity dead Israelis and zero Palestinians! And that should be the relevant metric.
posted by moorooka at 5:30 AM on July 31, 2014 [8 favorites]


A remarkably even-handed interview with John Ging, former head of UNRWA in the Gaza Strip.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:53 AM on July 31, 2014


Don't you guys know? Hamas always lies, Israel never does, ergo, QED, more dead Arabs, NBD.

Plus Gaza is less than 140 square miles, not including the border zone, so there is literally no place to hide anything. That includes rockets and civilians. Which is exactly how Israel wants it.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:57 AM on July 31, 2014


Here's a thought. Hamas ARE CIVILIANS. They are not a legitimate sovereign entity. They do not control their boarders. They do not enjoy the consent of the governed through a free and fair election.

They are civilian criminals holding all of Gaza hostage. And bombing a hospital because the Mafia uses it is not legitimate in any context.

Want to know the root cause of all this? Using an army to do the job of the police.
posted by mikelieman at 5:59 AM on July 31, 2014 [7 favorites]


HuffPo: Russell Brand Accuses Sean Hannity 'Of Looking Like Ken Doll' In Gaza Video Response

Forward: J Street's Gaza War Support Wins 'Moderate' Praise — But Alienates Some Backers

Juan Cole: Gaza and Soweto

Times of Israel: Italian Zionist group cancels Israeli singer's performance, presumably over her mild criticism of Netanyahu (my headline)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:04 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


MisantropicPainforest wrote: Gaza is less than 140 square miles, not including the border zone, so there is literally no place to hide anything. That includes rockets and civilians.

You seem to think that Hamas has a right to those rockets. It doesn't. Their only purpose is to commit war crimes.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:07 AM on July 31, 2014


You seem to think that Hamas has a right to those rockets.

Which proves my point. Legitimate sovereign entities can have whatever they want. North Korea has nuclear weapons, for example.
posted by mikelieman at 6:08 AM on July 31, 2014


Uh, so does Israel.
posted by moorooka at 6:09 AM on July 31, 2014


Yeah, and don't think I haven't heard family members express AROUND A SEDER TABLE, the sentiment that the "Arab Problem" could be fixed using some neutron bombs...
posted by mikelieman at 6:12 AM on July 31, 2014 [3 favorites]


Well, yeah, as I was saying upthread. Under international law Israel has got a right to use its nukes on Gaza too, because Hamas fired some rockets across the Gaza border. Therefore everything Israel does is in self-defence and legal by definition, up to and including nukes, while everything that the Palestinians do is unprovoked aggression and terrorism, including stone-throwing.

(Of course if the situation were reversed and all the Israelis crammed into 2% of what was their country, walled off from the outside world and subjected to a permanent state of siege, we wouldn't even have this issue. They'd totally be making lemonade out of it, unlike these hate-filled Arabs who just bleed, breed and advertise their misery.)

It's really a measure of Israel's immense restraint that Gaza has not yet been nuked, considering that a right nuking of the whole damn Strip would totally be within Israel's rights to do absolutely anything it feels like doing in self-defence, or kill however many human shields it feels like it has to kill to teach the Gazan population a well-deserved lesson in not touching the fucking stove.

Obviously the fact that Israel hasn't nuked Gaza proves that there's a limit to how many human shields Israel is prepared to kill and that's why it's such a fundamentally good country. Hamas probably nukes Israel ten times a day in their dreams - they're that fucking evil.
posted by moorooka at 6:38 AM on July 31, 2014 [7 favorites]


by that logic Israel doesn't have a right to so many things, like guns, rockets, bombs, bulldozers, checkpoints, because their only purpose is to commit war crimes.

Of course the difference is that Israel is a state and Hamas isn't, which seems to be pointed out when it suits Israel's interest and brushed aside when it doesn't.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:41 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


Oh the other HUGE difference is that Israel kills a shit ton of civilians and Hamas kills much much less civilians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:42 AM on July 31, 2014 [8 favorites]


Yeah but Hamas wants to kill civilians a shit ton more than Israel wants to kill civilians. So they're objectively worse.
posted by moorooka at 6:46 AM on July 31, 2014


by that logic Israel doesn't have a right to so many things, like guns, rockets, bombs, bulldozers, checkpoints, because their only purpose is to commit war crimes.

It's not a war crime if Israel does it. And if it is, it's because Hamas made them do it so it's actually Hamas's war crime.
posted by moorooka at 6:47 AM on July 31, 2014


I think from now on every time I hear the words "Israel" or "Gaza", I'm going to drink an ounce of bourbon.

I know it's not a solution but maybe I'll stop giving a damn for a short time.
posted by mikelieman at 6:48 AM on July 31, 2014


Mod note: I'm going to politely beg everyone to ease off on the ironic hyperbole. It's not about the rhetorical technique in itself. Just in the context of MeFi discussions, this sort of thing does have a tendency to precipitate escalation. In the context of MeFi I/P threads, I'm hard pressed to remember an instance where it didn't. Not doubting anyone's intentions here, this is simply a "please don't". Thanks.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:50 AM on July 31, 2014 [3 favorites]


What happens if you have a Hamas soccer ball under your bed: Former Palestinian midfielder killed when bomb hits his Gaza home
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:17 AM on July 31, 2014


Yeah but Hamas wants to kill civilians a shit ton more than Israel wants to kill civilians. So they're objectively worse.

You can't really be objective about a situation where an intent is unrealistic. Israel can defend itself. The people in Gaza cannot.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:31 AM on July 31, 2014


Sen. Barbara Boxer [D-CA] introduces to Senate S.2673 - A bill to enhance the strategic partnership between the United States and Israel

Politico: Joe Scarborough turns on Israel “This continued killing of women and children in a way that appears to be indiscriminate is asinine.”
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:32 AM on July 31, 2014


Some good news. via the @kim_tastiic Twitter feed.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:44 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


Blaming Palestinians for their own deaths

‘All the targets hit by the IDF in Gaza were attacked morally; those killed are responsible for their own deaths. And Netanyahu – he just wants the Gazans to be safe.’


This seems like psychological torture. It's not enough to slaughter a mother's children after declaring a 'humanitarian pause,' but then must blame her for her own child's death without acknowledging any responsibility for the crime.

War crimes:

Mass casualties as Gaza market area bombed

UNRWA breaks its silence: Abu Hussein school massacre exposes Israel
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:54 AM on July 31, 2014 [3 favorites]


Well, yeah, as I was saying upthread. Under international law Israel has got a right to use its nukes on Gaza too, because Hamas fired some rockets across the Gaza border. Therefore everything Israel does is in self-defence and legal by definition, up to and including nukes, while everything that the Palestinians do is unprovoked aggression and terrorism, including stone-throwing.

I'm no expert in international relations and military affairs - but I live with one. Any inaccuracies are my own.

Even in self-defense, there are limits to what is legal in international law. Disproportionate response, with little to no effort to avoid civilian casualties, is a war crime. Just like the fire bombing of Dresden was a war crime, though it was never prosecuted.

Most of us don't understand the definition of specific legal terms like "genocide" or "war crime". We use genocide too broadly, and we picture war crime too narrowly. You don't have to torture people to be committing a war crime - you just have to contravene the rules of war. A sniper who shooting an unarmed person - combatant or non-combatant, in or out of uniform - contravenes the rules of war. The person who commands the sniper to shoot an unarmed person is giving an illegal order.

I've watched video of an clearly unarmed young Palestinian man being shot repeatedly by an IDF sniper, even after he was on the ground. That was not a legal act.
posted by jb at 7:55 AM on July 31, 2014 [9 favorites]


I realise that you may have been sarcastic. But I just wanted to make the point for others in the thread who might not realise that there are limits to what a country is allowed to do in self-defense.
posted by jb at 7:57 AM on July 31, 2014






roomthreeseventeen: Some good news. via the @kim_tastiic Twitter feed.

Can't say I agree, only because of what those kids will be subjected to by Israel, both immediately and during the next campaigns of destruction, which are certain to occur.
posted by gman at 8:43 AM on July 31, 2014


Can't say I agree, only because of what those kids will be subjected to by Israel, both immediately and during the next campaigns of destruction, which are certain to occur.

I know, but babies! I am happy they arrived safely and hope they live long, lovely lives.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:47 AM on July 31, 2014 [2 favorites]


I know, but babies!

I share your enthusiasm for human life, but I hate to break it to you that not all parties to this conflict share the same enthusiasm for Palestinian babies -- to them, they are a "demographic threat."

Even babies can be political, unfortunately.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:57 AM on July 31, 2014 [2 favorites]


That 'demographic threat' is the underpinning of all this tragedy. And the key to understanding just how un-American the Israeli Government's policies are. It is wholly antithetical to the ideals of "One Nation, With Liberty and Justice For All, built upon the due process of law and equal protection of the laws".

If you can't gain "Consent of the Governed", you're doing it wrong.
posted by mikelieman at 9:03 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


understanding just how un-American the Israeli Government's policies are

Well, uh, Israel is a sovereign nation that is not the USA. For its policies to not be American is hardly surprising or unexpected. Not really sure where you were going with this.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:13 AM on July 31, 2014 [4 favorites]


Israel is a sovereign nation that is not the USA. For its policies to not be American is hardly surprising or unexpected. Not really sure where you were going with this.


I had thought that the point of my comment,
"It is wholly antithetical to the ideals of "One Nation, With Liberty and Justice For All, built upon the due process of law and equal protection of the laws".
would have sufficed in conveying my meaning.

Can you tell me which of "Liberty and Justice For All", "due process of law", and "equal protection of the laws" you think are not appropriate to use as standard or ideal to hold a government accountable to?
posted by mikelieman at 9:41 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


Can you tell me which of "Liberty and Justice For All", "due process of law", and "equal protection of the laws" you think are not appropriate to use as standard or ideal to hold a government accountable to?

Where did I indicate that those things are inappropriate?

I was pointing out your use of 'un-American' as xenophobic and weird.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:59 AM on July 31, 2014


Egypt calls on Israel to ‘immediately stop targeting civilians’
The Egyptian Ministry of Foreign Affairs strongly condemned “the continued Israeli targeting of innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza”
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:04 AM on July 31, 2014


Orwell in Gaza
But what happens to me when I read the term over and over is that the word human gets lost, and the word shield, with its attendant imagery, remains.
posted by audi alteram partem at 10:17 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


That IDF "human dome" graphic is grotesque. It explains a lot about how they get themselves in the frame of mind to fire a shell at a school/shelter or busy market place, I guess.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:29 AM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]




NY Times: Israeli Shells Are Said to Hit a U.N. School
But in his strongest comments to date on attacks on United Nations installations in Gaza, Secretary General Ban Ki-moon told reporters in San Jose, Costa Rica, that “nothing is more shameful than attacking sleeping children,” according to a transcript provided by his office.

And responding to Israel’s statements that its soldiers had been reacting to rocket fire from near the school, the United Nations deputy secretary general, Jan Eliasson, referred to the Geneva Conventions, which in laying out the rules of war unequivocally prohibit attacks on schools and hospitals. “This is a moment where you really have to say, ‘Enough is enough,’ and you have to search for the right words to convince those who have the power to stop this,” Mr. Eliasson said.

The United Nations has strenuously argued that no rockets were hidden in schools that were being used as shelters. It adds that it was its own officials who found rockets in schools they had abandoned because of fighting nearby, and who publicly condemned those who used the installations to store weapons.

'What is happening in Gaza, particularly to the children, is an affront to the humanity of all of us': UN spokesman Chris Gunness breaks down during interview on Gaza - video

Jadaliyya: The Other Israelis
The radical Jewish left is not a new phenomenon. It has existed from the very beginning of the Zionist project. Be it the Bund in Europe; communist and academic parties and groups in Mandatory Palestine; or the Israeli Communist Party, the Mizrahi Black Panthers, or Mazpen in the state of Israel, all these minority groups have asked critical questions about Judaism, Zionism, and Arab-Jewish relations. In the recent decade the Israeli radical left—as tiny as it is—has come to encompass a variety of groups. Some belong to Arab-Jewish parties, like the more established Hadash, the much smaller Da’amparty, and the Palestinian nationalist party, Balad (a tiny minority of Jews also identify with this group).

Jadaliyya: The Economic Challenges of the Gaza War: Relief and Reconstruction but No Palestinian Development

The Guardian: Camera captures moment of deadly Gaza air strike – video

972mag: Gaza catch-22: When a humanitarian ceasefire becomes a death trap

972mag: Blaming Palestinians for their own deaths
Anyone who has been listening to Palestinian voices in Gaza in recent weeks has heard one message repeated over and over through the thunder of Israeli bombardment: No place is safe in Gaza, a bomb can fall anywhere, anytime, on anyone. And there’s nowhere to run, because you can’t leave Gaza; while in it – inside this narrow, impoverished and overpopulated strip of land – nowhere is safe.

They were named Zakariya Ahed Subahi Bakir, age 10; Ahed Atef Ahed Bakir, age 9; Ismail Muhammad Subahi Bakir, age 9; and Mohammad Ramiz Izat Bakir, age 11.

Out of the thousands of targets “attacked” morally, none of these “surgical” bombardments featured in the IDF spokesperson’s clips or the few bombardments cancelled at the last minute, nor any of the prime minister’s pleas, managed to convince Gazans that Israel wishes for their safety. Perhaps they were actually convinced by the overflowing morgues, or maybe they were thinking of the more than 177 dead children. Maybe they were thinking about the Al Batsh family and its 17 dead, or maybe about the Al Haj family and its eight dead.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:35 AM on July 31, 2014 [3 favorites]


Gaza "miracle baby" dies due to power cuts
A premature baby rescued by Gaza doctors from her dead mother's womb last week has died due to complications and power cuts affecting the intensive care unit where she was treated.

The six-day-old baby was born by emergency Caesarean section Friday after doctors at Deir al-Balah hospital in central Gaza managed to save her from the womb of her mother, who died when an Israeli tank shell hit her home.

The mother, 23-year-old Shayma al-Sheikh Qanan, had been eight months pregnant, and the baby was named after her.

"an other gaza," poem by Suheir Hammad
in chaos one man collects

his daughter into a plastic bag

oh my god the bag is leaking

one kisses a cave was baby boy face just this

morning braids unplaiting phosphorous

wordless exhaust smoke shock
(con't)

Middle east Eye: Eid in a dystopian Gaza
My brother Mohammed would narrate what happened to his four friends who were killed together in our neighbourhood. I would not forget his reaction when he heard the news. He started hysterically hitting the walls and blankets and uttering, “Abdullah was eating with me yesterday. He liked the dessert that mum made and asked me to get him the recipe. We together visited our hospitalised friend Mohammed (he was hit by an Israeli missile that caused him severe burns and a broken leg. He has been in the intensive care). How can he be dead so soon? He is only 28! Who would take care of his wife and two children?”

With a heavy heart, I would also recall my colleague Abdullah, 22, known for his quick smile and good rapport with friends, who was killed in Al-Shajaeya massacre on 20 July by Israeli military forces. He was aspiring to be an international human rights lawyer for the sake of, as he always says, “exposing Israel’s crimes and violations of law”.

Haaretz: It’s all Hamas’ fault, right Israel?: More than 1,200 Gazans have been killed, about 80 percent of them civilians. But Israelis’ hands are clean and their consciences are quiet - so quiet you could cry.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:37 AM on July 31, 2014 [2 favorites]


In Jerusalem, and I mean within the ancient walls,
I walk from one epoch to another without a memory
to guide me. The prophets over there are sharing
the history of the holy ... ascending to heaven
and returning less discouraged and melancholy, because love
and peace are holy and are coming to town.
I was walking down a slope and thinking to myself: How
do the narrators disagree over what light said about a stone?
Is it from a dimly lit stone that wars flare up?
I walk in my sleep. I stare in my sleep. I see
no one behind me. I see no one ahead of me.
All this light is for me. I walk. I become lighter. I fly
then I become another. Transfigured. Words
sprout like grass from Isaiah’s messenger
mouth: “If you don’t believe you won’t be safe.”
I walk as if I were another. And my wound a white
biblical rose. And my hands like two doves
on the cross hovering and carrying the earth.
I don’t walk, I fly, I become another,
transfigured. No place and no time. So who am I?
I am no I in ascension’s presence. But I
think to myself: Alone, the prophet Muhammad
spoke classical Arabic. “And then what?”
Then what? A woman soldier shouted:
Is that you again? Didn’t I kill you?
I said: You killed me ... and I forgot, like you, to die.

In Jerusalem, Mahmoud Darwish (trans. Fady Joudah)
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 10:44 AM on July 31, 2014




no action by Hamas will ever give the IDF the right to bomb hospitals or schools or refugee centers where there are innocent civilians.

Joe in Australia: The Geneva Conventions expressly say the contrary. The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy[....]


The text you conveniently excised states "Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded".

Moreover:

She [UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay] also condemned the repeated attacks on Gaza’s overburdened hospitals which are packed with people injured and dying as a result of airstrikes and shelling.

“Like any other civilian object, hospitals are prima facie protected from attack,” she said “However, because of their vital importance, international humanitarian law specifically provides for their protection. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, ‘civilian hospitals… may in no circumstances be the object of attack, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict.’ Intentional attacks on hospitals being exclusively used as hospitals amounts to a war crime.”

UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights: Pillay condemns continuing attacks on civilians in Gaza
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 1:13 PM on July 31, 2014 [2 favorites]


In any event, Gaza has had rolling power cuts for about a year. How were those infants managing until now?

um, they weren't born yet?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:19 PM on July 31, 2014


Democracy Now: Part 2: Weapons Expert Theodore Postol Asks, Is Israel’s Iron Dome Really an Iron Sieve? (continuation of above-linked interview with author of this piece)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:02 PM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]








Sadly, the Telegraph header didn't stay up too long. I'm not surprised by the initial '72-year', mind. The Telegraph's management has recently been laying off all sorts of staff (sub editors, editors, journalists, columnists), and replacing them with content creators and SEO specialists.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:52 PM on July 31, 2014


What do you mean? The headline is still the same.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:00 PM on July 31, 2014


Not where I am sitting: Gaza conflict: 72-hour ceasefire 'agreed by both sides'
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:04 PM on July 31, 2014


Oh, I see. Nevermind.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:05 PM on July 31, 2014


Here's a fun game: try saying "terror tunnel" really fast over and over. See how many times you can pronounce it clearly then try to break that record.
posted by moorooka at 4:13 PM on July 31, 2014


Terror tunnel? More fun! Here is 'terror tunnel' to shatter your nerves. Courtesy of Hollywood. In 1956.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:23 PM on July 31, 2014



A premature baby rescued by Gaza doctors from her dead mother's womb last week has died due to complications and power cuts affecting the intensive care unit where she was treated.


That story is absolutely false. The hospital had a generator plus Hamas is using it as their not-so-secret secret headquarters, so you can't trust any of the stories coming out because Hamas loves trying to make Israel look bad.

(Even though to some people Israel never looks bad so the strategy is thankfully not 100% effective.)
posted by moorooka at 4:42 PM on July 31, 2014


Boston Review: Taking Just War Seriously in Gaza
What Is Proportionality?
...
Not deliberately targeting civilians either as an end or as a means to an end is a separate condition on the morality of war that Hamas may indeed be violating. Deliberate targeting of combatants or opponent’s military facilities is, of course, permissible.

Proportionality in the standard rules of war is about whether the harm that will be caused by military action is proportionate to the goal of the war or an individual military action.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 5:37 PM on July 31, 2014 [4 favorites]




Joe in Australia writes: "I take that to be an implicit reference to the Holocaust. If there is a lesson to be learned from that event it is probably one the Israelis know very well: don't sit back while people plot your extermination. But you know, justifying your ragging on Jews because they were nearly wiped out is a pretty low thing to do."

The modern nation of Israel was forged in a centuries-long furnace of scapegoating, pogroms and persecution. The question now is, has that terrible march been for them a flame that melts swords into plowshares?

Complain about militant Arab groups all you like. The simple truth of the matter is that unless Israel freezes its actions in Gaza and its settlements in the West Bank and starts negotiating in good faith with the Palestinians (of 2014, not whatever the imagined Palestinians of 1967 or 1948 might say), there will be full-out civil war in the Holy Land.

And that war will end, in five months, five years or fifty years, with either the complete destruction of the nation of Israel, and the death of most of its citizens; or it will end in five months, five years or fifty years, with the Israeli state becoming the first modern state to successfully commit a complete genocide.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:50 PM on July 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


The simple truth of the matter is that unless Israel freezes its actions in Gaza and its settlements in the West Bank and starts negotiating in good faith with the Palestinians ...

One of the original reasons for the blockade on Gaza (which was instituted by the UN, the USA, Russia, and the EU, as well as Israel) was that Hamas abrogated all past agreements with Israel when it won government in 2006. This wasn't (just) because it thought those agreements were unfair; Hamas refuses, as a matter of religious principle, to negotiate with Jews or Christians. This is why the current ceasefire negotiations are invariably carried out through third parties: it is so Hamas can say that Egypt (or Qatar or whoever) asked them to stop their attacks, and that they are complying with a request from fellow Muslims. So any proposal that relies on negotiations between Israel and Hamas is basically dead in the water: Hamas will not negotiate.

I suppose I can just barely imagine some sort of playacting where an intermediary keeps running between the rooms and saying things like "Mr Meshaal, would you do a favor to your brothers in Egypt and consent to draw 40% less groundwater if we force the evil Zionists to surrender three hundred hectoliters to the glorious forces of the Islamic Resistance Movement"? And the intermediary would then go next door and say something like "He says 35% plus you have to supply two greywater reprocessing units." I don't think it's very likely, or could be very stable, but it is just barely imaginable. But it will never be a negotiation between Israel and Hamas, and I don't think that you actually have peace when the two parties can't communicate directly.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:47 PM on July 31, 2014


Now the PA in the West Bank - those are some fair dinkum negotiating partners!

"Please stop building illegal settlements... we've totally stopped fighting back, just like you asked!"

"SHADDUP!"

"Pretty please?"

"SHADDUP!"

"yes sir"

See, Israel can negotiate when it has a proper negotiating partner. Except for when the PA started with this unity-government business with Hamas. Then Israel had to put an end to the negotiations. Because, like, that was the only way that they could prevent Hamas from putting an end to the negotiations.
posted by moorooka at 12:32 AM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Whoops should have been "we've totally stopped fighting back just like you asked AND we arrest all the guys who do want to fight back for you!"

When Hamas realizes that all they need to do is stop fighting back, use their power to stop anyone else fighting back, and watch settlements being built at a record-breaking pace while whimpering to Kerry and Indyck about how Israel is a big old meany, then maybe they can be a true partner for 'peace'. By which I mean 'total submission'. Same thing if you're an arab.
posted by moorooka at 1:41 AM on August 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


If you don't pretend Hamas is any sort of legitimate sovereign entity, you wouldn't have to pretend be surprised when they act like the gang of criminals they are.

So hearing people justify the uncivilized acts of the Government of Israel on this defective framing is really frustrating.

Hamas abrogated all past agreements with Israel when it won government in 2006

Seriously, when the Israeli government walked away from their responsibility to the people in Gaza ( to promote the general welfare and ensure domestic tranquillity -- it's the reason governments exist ) and left them at the mercy of a gang of criminals, what did you expect?
posted by mikelieman at 2:46 AM on August 1, 2014




Well, that truce didn't last long...

Reuters: Truce crumbles as 40 killed in Gaza, rockets hit Israel

RT: Debate between Max Blumenthal and Morton Klein

Ma'an: Israeli army confirms capture of Israeli soldier near Rafah

Politico: Senate blocks aid to Israel (Republicans block bill over fiscal concerns!)

YNet: Netanyahu trying to market victory against Hamas ("Op-ed: The prime minister is looking for an exit point from Gaza which will help him convince the Israeli public that IDF has in fact won.")

NBC: Picture of Gaza beach before and after the breaking of the cease-fire

NBC: Video of Israeli jet dropping bomb on Gaza

Juan Cole: Gaza: Analysis shows Israel Keeps Changing Justification
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:18 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Hamas refuses, as a matter of religious principle, to negotiate with Jews or Christians.

lol what. this isn't even close to true. Please provide some evidence for this. If you cite the charter from 1989 I will laugh because man propagandists cant get more predictable!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:54 AM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Israel's channel 2 is reporting that an Israeli soldier/officer named Hadar Goldin (my transliteration might be off) has been abducted. If Hamas has a live one, it's hard to imagine this particular war ending any time soon.
posted by lullaby at 4:58 AM on August 1, 2014


There was an Israeli solider named Oron Shaul that Hamas claimed that they had captured a week ago, but the IDF declared him dead (and didn't give many more details). I suppose he is probably dead, otherwise we would probably be hearing more about him, right? A more recent Ma'an article suggests that he died after being captured, and Hamas still has his body.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:06 AM on August 1, 2014


If real, the Israelis are suffering in ways we couldn't even imagine. More information on the tragedy here.
posted by gman at 5:13 AM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


In that 'More information' link, there's a link to the facebook group where it appeared, a group called Standing With IDF (pretty likely NSFW, depending on where W is...)
posted by mikelieman at 5:23 AM on August 1, 2014


I'm under the impression that Shaul was killed in a manner which left little remains to identify, which is why there was so much confusion when Hamas announced they'd captured a soldier. I would imagine if they had his body they would have publicized photographic evidence by now...

The timeline today is different, too. With Shaul, Hamas announced they had him and the Israelis scrambled around for a day or two with conflicting messages to the media. This time, it looks like the IDF was the first to announce it.
posted by lullaby at 5:29 AM on August 1, 2014


good analysis, seymour - i think the palestinians should have surrendered a long time ago - it's the one thing that would force the israelis to make a real decision about the long term future of I/P

what i'm detecting now in this conflict is the israelis are suffering from "mission creep" - at first, it was to stop the rockets - now it's to eliminate all the tunnels, too - so, they're faced with some difficult choices - effectively re-occupying gaza for many months in a bloody war or signing off on a truce that won't really mean anything so they can withdraw - allowing a break in the blockade so that gaza can recover or forcing the palestinians to evacuate in a mass ethnic cleansing - allowing hamas to continue or destroy them with the great risk that whoever replaces them will be a much worse enemy

i don't know if they realize it yet but a return to the status quo ante is now unlikely - they've broken that possibility beyond all hope of recovery

hamas' game plan is much simpler, i think - they're hunkering down to continue the battle in the hope that something so bad happens that a 3rd actor is outraged enough to widen the conflict - it's a cynical and terrible thing they're doing, but they couldn't do it if the israelis weren't so willing to oblige them

so, we have one side, hamas, that is willing to pay any price to spark a wider conflict and another side, israel, that is having trouble deciding whether they should go "too far" or try to back up to what they had - what neither side realizes is that there aren't many people who want to participate in a wider conflict and that things have already gone too far

it's hard to say how this will end, but another generation of conflict is now inevitable
posted by pyramid termite at 6:34 AM on August 1, 2014


So which side do you think must take on the primary responsibility to end this dispute once and for all?

Israel. "One Nation, With Liberty and Justice FOR ALL!" is the way I roll. And I don't see any reason not to hold everyone accountable to that standard.

Given this future prospect, I can see how Israel just wants to play these games

When a child throws a tantrum because they don't wish to act responsibly, we don't mollycoddle them and enable their continued unacceptable behavior, do we?

I'm sick and tired of these games where the goal is to kill the next generation before they can grow up.
posted by mikelieman at 6:48 AM on August 1, 2014


Its important to remember that all this bloodshed could end overnight if the US just said to Israel: you kill one more Palestinian kid and we stop giving you money. That won't happen of course because of the lobby, but on the upside, public opinion in the US is turning more and more against Israel.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 AM on August 1, 2014 [9 favorites]


The Map: A Palestinian Nation Thwarted & Speaking Truth to Power

And for the people who are claiming that there were no Palestinians, that the entire group of people has been invented only to make Israel look bad, that if the people who had lived on this land for thousands of years had just gone somewhere else...since obviously only the Jews have any right to this land, I will say again what I have said before; my family has been there since before the time of Christ. They became Christians after Christ. They have been priests and leaders and olive growers and soap makers for over 2000 years.

Until their olive groves were given to illegal settlements, and their homes were raized, and family were sent to concentration camps under the thin umbrella of being "resettlement camps" and "refugee camps." Refugees in land they've owned for longer than any Western country has been a country.

In my lifetime, an entire population has been shoved behind barbed wire walls, settlers build above the camps and shuttle their human wasted to rain on the heads and homes of the Palestinians. They throw things through the fences, they attack the women and children with sticks and fists and slurs...but if a Palestinian responds...then TERRORISM! BOMB!BOMB!BOMB!

My family's land is now firmly inside Israel borders, and none of my family live on it. There is no compensation, there is no talk of letting the people back to their groves or their land, there is no water, there is no electricity, there is only guns and abuse and bombs, bombs, bombs.

And people are surprised when Hamas's call to fight resonates with a people who have no hope, no chance for life free of abuse? You are surprised when a people rise up in hatred of those who treat them like animals, lock them in cages, and poke them with sticks?

I tell you what, y'all...if the FEMA camps were the gulags that the teahadists think they are, if we locked up 3 million people in them, I think we could expect a fair amount of revolution to foment there, and given 50 years of keeping them in that barbed wire approximation of life, that they would start lobbing rocks and rockets.

I have not been a Hamas supporter...again, my family were Christians...but now, after I have seen the shrapnel riddled body of a child I love, I cannot blame the Hamas...because what the fuck else are they supposed to do? Submit? Bow their heads and allow the Israelis to push them into the sea? Accept that they are animals to the Israelis and that they will never have rights? Just kill themselves so Israelis can have new beach front property?

What the fuck are they supposed to do?
posted by dejah420 at 6:50 AM on August 1, 2014 [30 favorites]


Its important to remember that all this bloodshed could end overnight if the US just said to Israel: you kill one more Palestinian kid and we stop giving you money.

And that's one reason I keep focusing on the un-American the Israeli Government is acting.

I 'get' that they cannot deal with the 'demographic issue' and remain a "Jewish State", but I'm not convinced that having a "Jewish State" is actually resulting in a safer world for Jews, but rather the opposite, that by blatantly murdering children, they're making me look bad.
posted by mikelieman at 6:55 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


all this bloodshed could end overnight if the US

All this bloodshed almost did end over night, and then well:
AJE: UN Special Coordinator Robert Serry said an incident in the Rafah area of the Gaza Strip, in which two Israeli soldiers and a number of Palestinians were reportedly killed, would if corroborated constitute a serious violation of the ceasefire by Gazan armed groups.

NYT: The White House spokesman, Josh Earnest, speaking on CNN, said of the capture of an Israeli soldier, "That would be a rather barbaric violation of the ceasefire agreement.”
posted by rosswald at 6:56 AM on August 1, 2014


It's not going to end until EVERYONE'S inalienable rights are protected by due process and equal protection of the law. But, then... "demographics".
posted by mikelieman at 6:59 AM on August 1, 2014


By end I mean end permanently, not stalling. And even if the rockets and bombs and explosions stop, Gaza is still being blockaded with regular incursion by IDF troops. Gazans still cannot leave Gaza freely. All of those things are acts of war, so don't dare go on about how the violence will end once Hamas stops its rockets.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:15 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


would if corroborated constitute

We are, yet again, in the land of the hypothetical, the conditional.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:26 AM on August 1, 2014


I favourited your comment dejah420. Now I want to go back and and unfavourite all my others to give it the gravity it deserves.
posted by Tuatara at 7:28 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


It bothers me a little that the NYTimes headline is "Cease-Fire in Gaza Collapses; Israeli Soldier
Is Captured." Only in the second paragraph does it go on to say that "Gaza health officials said that 35 Palestinians were killed and more than 100 wounded as Israeli forces bombarded the area."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:34 AM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Surely, for the NYT -- but the NYT is not alone in such matters -- one captured Israeli soldier is more newsworthy more than 35 dead Palestinians and 100+ wounded.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:50 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


And that's one reason I keep focusing on the un-American the Israeli Government is acting.

It would be so great if you could stop saying this. Yes, the Israeli government is perpetrating an atrocity. That doesn't mean being 'American' is the only way to be. viz Canada, New Zealand, all of Scandinavia. Stop it. It's not okay, and it reeks of American imperialism. It's like saying China was un-Roman. Yeah, I mean, duh.

What makes me the saddest about all of this mess is how much the Israeli government seems to have completely forgotten why it exists in the first place, why it was created, and what it was created in response to.

I know that oppressed becoming oppressors isn't exactly unusual in human history, but the Shoah was, and the response to it was, and it breaks my heart that the Israeli government (let me be clear, I know that not all Israelis support this bullshit, which is why I keep saying government) is slowly but surely killing people just because, at the end of the day, they are the Other. I am not comparing the Israeli government to Hitler at all; the Balkans in the 90's would be a much, much closer approximation. I'm saying there is a horrific irony going on here. As mentioned above, have they beaten swords into plowshares? Or have they just made more swords?

If we must compare Israel to the United States, it's about 1864 over there right now. The government has all the power, and it's standing at a crossroads. Every day I am less and less and less and less hopeful that they will suck it up and make the right decision.

The Israeli government needs to take a long, hard look at itself and completely reformulate the idea of the Israeli state. If they won't accept a two-state solution, the only other options are continued death and, as mentioned above, a long slow genocide--or a single state solution where everyone gets a voice; South Africa redux is not an option that will work at all (although given how long apartheid lasted, maybe I shouldn't be so confident that the rest of the world wouldn't turn a blind eye). It's possible to reformulate the government, even throw the current constitution out and start over, while accepting that everyone is a citizen and still protecting rights of minorities.

Either that or it's time to send in UN peacekeeping troops and disarm the fuck out of everyone and enforce a two-state solution. It worked, eventually, mostly, in the Balkans. But that requires the Israeli government to take a step back, and it seems like they won't ever budge an inch. It also requires the international community to get off our collective asses and fucking do something about the civilians--especially the children--being murdered with apparent impunity.

Frankly I just want to walk into Netanyahu's office and slap him across the face but that would be making me part of the problem.

It bothers me a little that the NYTimes headline is "Cease-Fire in Gaza Collapses; Israeli Soldier Is Captured." Only in the second paragraph does it go on to say that "Gaza health officials said that 35 Palestinians were killed and more than 100 wounded as Israeli forces bombarded the area."

Yeah. That's gross. In some ways it's like the Malaysian flight that was shot down; "295 people died on downed plane, 2 were {Americans|Canadians|British|_____}." Not seeing the forest for the trees. Or, worse, ignoring the forest because the dead people are brown. I know, I know, there's a whole meta-narrative of the Israeli government just protecting its land and citizens and IDF soldiers are heroes and so forth. So maybe it's not just racism, but I can't help but feel that it mostly is, when you consider that the implication of the headline is one dead IDF soldier is worth more than 35 dead Palestinians. Which I suspect is approximately what the top echelons of the Israeli government think, based on their actions.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:52 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


It bothers me a little that the NYTimes headline is "Cease-Fire in Gaza Collapses; Israeli Soldier
Is Captured." Only in the second paragraph does it go on to say that "Gaza health officials said that 35 Palestinians were killed and more than 100 wounded as Israeli forces bombarded the area."


Yeah, from what I saw on twitter the IAF was pounding gaza up until the start of the ceasefire like the finally of a fireworks show, and Hamas captured the soldier before the ceasefire as well - but this seems unclear.

How Europe's Jews lost their humanity in Gaza

The racism that has swept across Israel is devastating to behold. It is also an abdication of what Jews have prized for centuries: A sense of common humanity.
The racism that has swept across Israel is devastating to behold. Israelis maraud through the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv yelling “Death to Arabs”; a renowned Israeli scholar argues that the sisters, mothers and wives of potential Palestinian terrorists should be raped as a method of deterrence; Knesset members call for a war against all Palestinian people and the forced expulsion of Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank; the deputy mayor of Haifa is beaten; a Palestinian teenager is burnt alive; and the list goes on. These are not the misdeeds of rogue anti-social elements: This is a wave of hatred and violence that is committed or supported by large swathes of the Israeli public. Most disquieting is the celebration of Palestinian death and suffering, whether it be cheering from the hilltops of Sderot as bombs fall upon Gaza, or joyous outbursts from Israelis on social media.
Reports about Shifa hospital being ordered to evacuate. Let me tell you this: Any stupid targeting of it is going to leave thousands dead.

Now in Hebron (W. Bank) btwn 90-150 reportedly wounded by live fire at ongoing demo.

@Farah_Gazan: A big building of al-Shifa' Hospital is threatened to be bombed, we're evacuating home #GazaUnderAttack
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:57 AM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


finallye
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:05 AM on August 1, 2014


I reject the idea that Israel should be held to some sort of higher standard because of how it was formed, because of who its allies are, or any reason really. It should be held to the same standard as all other nations.
posted by cell divide at 8:07 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


despite my many in my profession's protests, international relations is hierarchical, and one of those hierarchies includes self-proclaimed democracies. Israel is one of them and that is the standard they should be held to.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:14 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


I didn't say higher standard. I would expect all nations to be held to that standard. Nor did I say anything about Israel's allies.

With that being said, if you've been systematically oppressed and Othered, it's remarkably grotesque when you turn around and do it yourself, no? I mean, you can reject the idea as much as you like, but when you're a nation that was formed in direct response to genocide, one would hope that you'd at least pause before functionally engaging in the exact same activity. (Obviously not on the same scale, nor in the same way, and not nearly as monstrous.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:16 AM on August 1, 2014


It is an illusion or a mistake in language or something to believe that a nation or person can be held to a standard by another nation or person. Israel must choose its own standards, and the US must choose its own standards. The choice of whether or not to support an undemocratic, racist occupation and a needless massacre of innocent children is part of that decision.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:17 AM on August 1, 2014 [5 favorites]


...and Golden Eternity said it better than me, I think.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:25 AM on August 1, 2014


It would be so great if you could stop saying this. Yes, the Israeli government is perpetrating an atrocity. That doesn't mean being 'American' is the only way to be.

It's certainly not the only way to be, but when the discussion (again) turns to American funding of Israel, it's wholly relevant that the Israeli Government promotes our values, specifically, the ideal of One Nation with Liberty and Justice FOR ALL, and inalienable rights promoted through due process and equal protection of the law.

Casting this in this way is the only way to get the point to Americans despite the anti-Palestinian propaganda.
posted by mikelieman at 8:32 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israeli Government promotes our values

You mean like separation of church and state?

Seriously. Just stop saying it. Adds not one whit to the discussion and in fact detracts from it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


It is an illusion or a mistake in language or something to believe that a nation or person can be held to a standard by another nation or person.

Why shouldn't the Israeli Government be held to a standard of "One Nation with liberty and justice for all"?

They say they're a democracy, and that's a core ideal.

Similarly, why shouldn't the Israeli Government be held to a standard of "inalienable rights, protected through due process and equal protection of the law".

They say they're a democracy, and that's a core ideal.
posted by mikelieman at 8:36 AM on August 1, 2014


You mean like separation of church and state?

Well, I can say that with a separation of church and state, there wouldn't be conflict over a "Jewish State", would there?
posted by mikelieman at 8:37 AM on August 1, 2014


Israeli Government promotes our values

You mean like separation of church and state?


Is this supposed to be sarcastic? Israel is pretty good on the secularism front.

Anyway, yes if you want to convince Americans to stop using their tax dollars to fund Israel, then a pretty good and effective tactic is to describe Israel's actions as unamerican.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on August 1, 2014


You're mistaking the American constitution for some sort of universal declaration of fact.

If you want to hold to a widely-agreed-upon standard, please refer to the UN Declaration on Human Rights instead, rather than exhibiting this America Is The Best thing which is, at best, in poor taste.

Well, I can say that with a separation of church and state, there wouldn't be conflict over a "Jewish State", would there?

Indeed there wouldn't. But it's interesting that's not one of the American values you're saying the unsurprisingly un-American other sovereign nation should be upholding. You can't have it both ways.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:40 AM on August 1, 2014


You're mistaking the American constitution for some sort of universal declaration of fact.

No I am not. I don't really know who you are talking to though.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:43 AM on August 1, 2014


Is this supposed to be sarcastic? Israel is pretty good on the secularism front.

Well, except for being an explicitly Jewish state, sure. Yeah, 'Jewish' can refer to religious or ethnic identity or both, but in functional terms?

Also, sure, maybe to get Americans onboard you need to describe something as un-American, but the connotations of that are really, to the rest of the world that isn't American, unpleasant.

In any case this is a derail and I don't really see a need to wander further down this garden path.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:44 AM on August 1, 2014


We don't have an official church, more importantly, 'equal protection' means our laws aren't biased against non-jews, so I'm not seeing the point.

When Israel's "Right of Return" law covers EVERYONE, including Arabs, then there might be a point there... But again, without 'equal protection of the law', they can't meet the most basic standard.

Of course, there are always going to be differences between the spec and implementation.

But our spec is superior.
posted by mikelieman at 8:45 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


No I am not. I don't really know who you are talking to though.

The guy who keeps quoting the American constitution.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:46 AM on August 1, 2014


the incontrovertible fact that a given article is biased toward Israel

That is a very bold claim. You will notice that the BBC article, exactly as the NYT, leads with the Israeli soldier and then only talks about the Palestinian deaths in the second-third paragraph.
posted by rosswald at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2014


The guy who keeps quoting the American constitution.

Well, when they nailed down the phrases "One nation with justice for all" ( the pledge of allegiance ) and "promote the general welfare and domestic tranquility" they really nailed down the concept in what I think is the perfect form. Again, no-one is complaining about the values they describe, are they?

However "promote inalienable rights via due process and equal protection of the law", I don't believe exists in that form in any of our founding documents.

SO, if you're ignoring the message due to where you might believe they're derived, that would be confusing.
posted by mikelieman at 8:52 AM on August 1, 2014


first, "one nation with justice and liberty for all" is a quote from the pledge of allegiance, not the u s constitution

second, any document that originally described slaves as 3/5 a person for apportionment purposes isn't exactly holy writ the rest of the world is obliged to follow
posted by pyramid termite at 8:55 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Dude, like I said I am not participating in this derail any further. This is my most salient comment on the matter. And this is my final one.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:55 AM on August 1, 2014


It bothers me a little that the NYTimes headline is "Cease-Fire in Gaza Collapses; Israeli Soldier
Is Captured." Only in the second paragraph does it go on to say that "Gaza health officials said that 35 Palestinians were killed and more than 100 wounded as Israeli forces bombarded the area."
posted by roomthreeseventeen

Yeah. That's gross. [...] I know, I know, there's a whole meta-narrative of the Israeli government just protecting its land and citizens and IDF soldiers are heroes and so forth. So maybe it's not just racism, but I can't help but feel that it mostly is, when you consider that the implication of the headline is one dead IDF soldier is worth more than 35 dead Palestinians. Which I suspect is approximately what the top echelons of the Israeli government think, based on their actions.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering

the incontrovertible fact that a given article is biased toward Israel
posted by showbiz_liz
Was the point not that the NYT headline was biased in favor of Israel?
posted by rosswald at 8:55 AM on August 1, 2014


second, any document that originally described slaves as 3/5 a person for apportionment purposes isn't exactly holy writ the rest of the world is obliged to follow

Again, I've never said that anyone needed to follow The Constitution, rather that if they are offensive to MY STANDARDS, which are quite reasonable, than they're wrong.

Now, yes, some ideals are reflected in the US Constitution, but you will note that the issue you mention WAS RESOLVED.

What ideals of the Israeli Government will promote a resolution to the issue of Palesinians not being considered people at all?
posted by mikelieman at 9:01 AM on August 1, 2014


i think these ideals would work well -

Deuteronomy 10: 19 You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:34 The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
posted by pyramid termite at 9:11 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Mod note: Can we drop the "are news article titles anti-semitic or not?" derail?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:14 AM on August 1, 2014


Did y'all know that not a single Israeli soldier has been prosecuted for a war crime in 27 years? Even when they're caught on film committing them?

Did you know that you can hear the cheering from the hills as the bombs rain down?

And this is the country we give 8.5 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY. We Americans live in a country where 25% of American kids don't have enough to eat, we have chronic homelessness, our Vets are treated like crap, our old people are left to die, our bridges are falling down, our schools are the worst in the 1st world, ...but we spend 8 and a half million dollars a day to prop up a country who has proven again and again that they actively participate in ethnic cleansing.

Why? What on earth has made the Israeli lobbying arm so terrifying to American politicians that we will sacrifice our own well-being on the altar of Israeli expansion?
posted by dejah420 at 9:26 AM on August 1, 2014 [13 favorites]


The Times of Israel: When Genocide is Permissible by Yochanan Gordon

Original headline. It would be great if someone could find the entire article which I guess the Times had second thoughts about.

Dead Palestinian children in Gaza tell story of impunity
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:30 AM on August 1, 2014


Kerry Calls on Qatar and Turkey to Gain Release of Israeli Soldier:

“Hamas, which has security control over the Gaza Strip, must immediately and unconditionally release the missing Israeli soldier, and I call on those with influence over Hamas to reinforce this message,” Mr. Kerry said in a statement.
posted by rosswald at 9:40 AM on August 1, 2014


The Times of Israel: When Genocide is Permissible by Yochanan Gordon

Nuked by Times of Israel... but currently available here
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:42 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


Golden Eternity, the article under the headline "When Genocide is Permissible, by Yochanan Gordon" can be read here. Basically, it's an open call to murder all Palestinians, as the author believes it's the only way to bring peace to Israel.
posted by dejah420 at 9:43 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


"security control", is that newspeak for 'Gaza is a Pirate Nation owned by Hamas'?
posted by mikelieman at 9:44 AM on August 1, 2014



The Times of Israel: When Genocide is Permissible by Yochanan Gordon
---
Nuked by Times of Israel... but currently available here


Given I've described seders where I've heard family state that a neutron bomb would work, this is ... well, not 'funny'. What do you call that 'Man, I really need a fucking drink', feeling?
posted by mikelieman at 9:47 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]




I don't know how much oversight the bloggers on The Times of Israel have, but I imagine it's going to be increasing after this.
posted by ODiV at 10:05 AM on August 1, 2014


The Times of Israel: 1 Samuel 15:18 by IRWIN E. BLANK
1 Samuel 15:18-Samuel said, “Is it not true, though you were little in your own eyes, you were made the head of the tribes of Israel? And the LORD anointed you king over Israel, 18 and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.’ 
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2014




The Times of Israel: 1 Samuel 15:18 by IRWIN E. BLANK

What.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:19 AM on August 1, 2014


What

That was their title. He gives his own commentary on the scripture and how Israel should apply it to Gaza . Perhaps I should have underlined it or put it in quotes to make that clear.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:35 AM on August 1, 2014


Golden Eternity, I read it. I'm just astonished at the contents.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:36 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


I didn't expect the ceasefire to last all 72 hours but I must admit I didn't see it not even making the 2 hour mark. Sad.
posted by Justinian at 10:45 AM on August 1, 2014


Vox has also posted an article with the full text of the "When Genocide is Permissible" link.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:48 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


Golden Eternity... The Times of Israel: 1 Samuel 15:18 by IRWIN E. BLANK

Part of the explanation for why the 72-hour ceasefire didn't last?
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2014


Golden Eternity: "The Times of Israel: 1 Samuel 15:18 by IRWIN E. BLANK"

Holy gods, I feel sick.
posted by dejah420 at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2014


As someone who has only recently got himself educated on the history of this region and started watching and reading the various coverage, it sure seems like extreme opinions such as the "is genocide permissible" article and the one Golden Eternity linked to are becoming more mainstream. Is that fair to say? Or has the conversation always been this extreme?
posted by jbickers at 10:57 AM on August 1, 2014


via Twitter: Gaza's latest casualties: 1567 deaths, 8760 injuries, and 9245 partially or completely destroyed homes
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:00 AM on August 1, 2014


Is that fair to say? Or has the conversation always been this extreme?

I don't think so. On average its much better. I mean read Jablonski or the former Mufti of Jerusalem.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2014


I think it has become much more extreme. Israel seems to be much more ultra-conservative and very racist in general. I think the newer immigrants from Eastern Europe and the younger generation are contributing to it significantly. Immigrants from the West, I'm guessing, also tend to be on the ultra-conservative side. I think because of the focus on anti-semitism and Obama, Israelis are failing to see how fascism is taking hold of their country. The moderate and left Jewish communities in the US and Israel must stand against this NOW, imo. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men (and women) do nothing." -Burke Metafilter's censorship of I/P is not helpful.


On Gaza, Israel is losing the Obama coalition (Peter Beinart)


Gaza myths and facts: what American Jewish leaders won't tell you (Peter Beinart)
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:18 AM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


As someone who has only recently got himself educated on the history of this region and started watching and reading the various coverage, it sure seems like extreme opinions such as the "is genocide permissible" article and the one Golden Eternity linked to are becoming more mainstream. Is that fair to say? Or has the conversation always been this extreme?

I think what's notable is that some Israelis are now openly thinking and suggesting such things. On the Palestinian side the "push them into the sea" attitude has been around longer than Israel. Israel survived several attempts to destroy it early in its history, but the Palestinians don't stand a chance if such beliefs take strong hold in Israel.
posted by Thing at 11:18 AM on August 1, 2014


I don't think peoples feelings have changed, but as far as *publicly* advocating a "Final Solution" without concern of censure? That's pretty new.
posted by mikelieman at 11:23 AM on August 1, 2014


jbickers, just like the American conversation has been hijacked by the Teahadists, the Israeli conversation has turned towards the dark side. The extremist side has always been there, it is the foundation of the country (See Irgun, which is the forefather of the current Likud), but this level of xenophobia and bloodlust is something I've never seen from the Israeli public before.

That said; I cannot help but wonder how a people who have this in living memory, can possibly see this (no death, LA Times picture of Palestinian children being carted away from their homes) and not be horrified by what they are in danger of becoming.
posted by dejah420 at 11:34 AM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


One big difference is the Palestinians don't have the power to push Israel into the sea. I can understand the fear on Israel's behalf that the creation of the tunnels is proof that Hamas and many Palestinians are set on the ultimate destruction of Israel, but Israel must structure an actually moral and just solution and take the risk that that attitude will change over time on both sides. I think what happened with Rabin and Arafat, and other instances when the two sides were close to an agreement, and from other places in the world like South Africa and the American South, show that the attitudes can change over time with the right leadership.
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:48 AM on August 1, 2014


Obama is the man. Loving this press conference
posted by JJ987E at 12:05 PM on August 1, 2014




I have mentioned it several times in this thread but I've spent significant time in Israel over the past 15 years and it has changed a lot. It is far more racist than it ever was. There are openly racist people in many positions of power, violent incidents against the Arab minority are up, and the general vibe is very different.

I think Golden Eternity nails some of the reasons, one I would add is that so many moderate-type people have emigrated, primarily to the US. The religious maniacs from the US come to Israel, and the tech-y Tel Aviv types whose parents voted Labor are working in the States and Europe.
posted by cell divide at 12:11 PM on August 1, 2014 [8 favorites]


What people forget, is that the so called "terror tunnels" were built in response to the blockade of Gaza which has been ongoing since 2007. Israel has controlled food, water, agriculture supplies, medicine, all the necessities of life, and would close the gates all the time as collective punishment.

Before Egypt was ruled by it's current regime, the tunnels were the only way for a lot of Westerners to get to Palestine, along with supplies, food, medicine, clothes, etc. Let us not forget how Israel responded when people tried to break the blockade; beating and executing Turkish and American citizens. In 2013-2014, Egypt's military destroyed most of the 1,200 tunnels which were used for smuggling food, weapons and other goods to Gaza.

If Israel succeeds in destroying the tunnels, they effectively trap people in Gaza. By destroying the infrastructure, and making sure that they can't fish or farm (which is why the fishing boats and farms have all been bombed), then they effectively starve the people out of Gaza. Once they leave for food and water, or ya know, die, then Israel can claim the land without any of those pesky brown people muddying up the view.

This isn't about tunnels. This isn't about rockets. This is about ethnic cleansing. This is about removing an entire group of indigenous people out of the way of a bunch of Europeans and Russians who don't want to be reminded that they have become the abyss they feared.
posted by dejah420 at 12:12 PM on August 1, 2014 [18 favorites]


jbickers, just like the American conversation has been hijacked by the Teahadists, the Israeli conversation has turned towards the dark side.

I don't think it's fair to plant it just on the tea party. I know a couple young(like early-mid 20s), lefty seeming jewish dudes who while they'd otherwise be pretty progressive about stuff are totally "bomb gaza flat, it's the only way we'll ever be safe". I actually had to delete them on social media because of this.

They're the kind of people who would make fun of the tea party, and basically all other US right wing politics. On the proper side of "get republicans out of uteruses", etc. But on this one issue they're totally and vocally on the very dark side of this, as you said.

I have no idea where it comes from, but it's definitely something that exists in the millenial consciousness if you're jewish seemingly.

And i mean, i'm not, so i don't have that much insight. It just surprised me to hear a young person in a city full of "free palestine!" signs/stickers/protests/etc so openly and vigorously hating. It's a pretty extreme, unpopular opinion to have and openly proselytize. Because i mean, when i hear it, it's stated with young earth creationist levels of "duh... you... don't believe that? huh?" quickly segwaying into "well you obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about then"
posted by emptythought at 12:36 PM on August 1, 2014


When Genocide is Permissible

What. I mean seriously what the actual fuck. Are memories that short? I know and have known people with the tattoos, for God's sake. How many of the current powerbase in Israel had parents and grandparents in the camps? How many lost swathes of their families, their history?

How can any Jewish person anywhere ever suggest genocide? Seriously, I do not understand it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:42 PM on August 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


jbickers: , it sure seems like extreme opinions such as the "is genocide permissible" article and the one Golden Eternity linked to are becoming more mainstream

I think it's becoming more mainstream. Haaretz has often been put forth as representing a more moderate version of Zionism, but essentially published an op-ed endorsing a full occupation and "cleanse" of radical elements in Gaza yesterday, though with the caveat that it should be done "next time."

Left unspecified are the details of how Israeli forces would tell the radical militia elements from the moderate civilians to avoid sliding toward full-blown ethnic cleansing, or how they would end up with an end state where the population is more amenable to any kind of compromise with the people who just slaughtered their friends and neighbors.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:52 PM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


dejah420: You're conflating tunnels into Egypt which do carry food and other civilian items as well as weapons with tunnels into Israel which do no such thing.
posted by Justinian at 1:00 PM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]










The double standards in this conflict are truly something to behold. Does anyone believe for a moment that if Hamas said "Israel killed two of our soldiers and took one prisoner just as the ceasefire began, therefore we immediately retaliated by killing 100 Israeli civilians, and will continue killing more until our POW is returned", that they would have an iota of support anywhere on earth?
posted by crayz at 1:44 PM on August 1, 2014 [8 favorites]


> 1 Samuel 15:18-Samuel said, “Is it not true, though you were little in your own eyes, you were made the head of the tribes of Israel? And the LORD anointed you king over Israel, 18 and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.’
"The two Testaments are interesting, each in its own way. The Old one gives us a picture of these people's Deity as he was before he got religion, the other one gives us a picture of him as he appeared afterward."

- Mark Twain
posted by homunculus at 1:54 PM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Israel creates no-man's land, declaring 40+% of the Gaza strip as "buffer zone", where no Palestinian may go without being summarily executed. "What that means on the ground is scenes of extraordinary devastation in places like the Al Shajaya district approaching Gaza’s eastern frontier, and Beit Hanoun in the north. These were crowded neighborhoods less than three weeks ago. Now they have been literally depopulated, the residents joining more than 160,000 internally displaced people in refuges and makeshift shelters. Apartment blocks are fields of rubble, and as I move through this hostile landscape the phrase that keeps ringing in my head is “scorched earth.”"
posted by dejah420 at 1:55 PM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


The NYTimes article has been changed to lead with "As Truce Fails, Israeli Soldier Is Captured and 35 Gazans Die"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:11 PM on August 1, 2014


Israel creates no-man's land, declaring 40+% of the Gaza strip as "buffer zone"

Presumably so they can start moving Settlers in.

How exactly do they get out of this not as a pariah nation? Do they really think they can astroturf their way to moral credibility?
posted by Grangousier at 3:20 PM on August 1, 2014


On the radio on the way into work this morning, I heard an Israeli government spokesman say that Hamas had broken the ceasefire by capturing an Israeli soldier.

On the radio on the way home from work this evening, I heard an Israeli government spokesman say they believe the soldier was captured during an attempt to decommission a tunnel.

How on earth is that Hamas breaking the ceasefire? Do they seriously think that a "ceasefire" is like a coupon for one free "destroy the means for the enemy to make war"? That Israeli soldiers were going to show up in a tunnel, find some Hamas fighters there, and say "Oh, hey guys, don't mind us, we're just gonna destroy this tunnel, OK? And we're gonna knock down the walls of your fort. While we're at it, how about you give us those rifles? Remember, don't fire at us, it's a ceasefire!"

What scummy dissembling.
posted by Flunkie at 3:35 PM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Israel creates no-man's land, declaring 40+% of the Gaza strip as "buffer zone", where no Palestinian may go without being summarily executed.

A territory that is a four mile wide strip of land is now, by the brutal overwhelming force of its neighbour, a two mile wide strip of land. Well, at least Israel doesn't need to worry about it's citizens getting pushed into the sea any time soon.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 3:49 PM on August 1, 2014


it's a canny plot by hamas - they're pulling the israelis into the sea
posted by pyramid termite at 3:53 PM on August 1, 2014 [17 favorites]


How on earth is that Hamas breaking the ceasefire?

Technically, the cease fire that Kerry was trying to negotiate would allow Israelis to stay in Gaza and continue tunnel-hunting operations. Granted, this is a ceasefire in only letter, not spirit.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:10 PM on August 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe (2009)
Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions
Avi Shlaim: The balance is missing

The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:28 PM on August 1, 2014


Technically, the cease fire that Kerry was trying to negotiate would allow Israelis to stay in Gaza and continue tunnel-hunting operations. Granted, this is a ceasefire in only letter, not spirit.

Another way to put it is the IDF tried focusing tunnel-hunting instead of killing civilians for a couple hours, then when they took losses from Hamas in conventional military-on-military violence they decided fuck it, let's go back to bombing children.
posted by crayz at 6:28 PM on August 1, 2014


Mohammed Omer, Palestinian photographer and journalist, is live tweeting the current bombing raid. It is not an easy thing to read, my heart breaks with every post, and I wonder, just which one might be the last reporting he does.

Fighter jets. Launching missiles into civilian areas. Attacking neighborhoods. And we supplied the machine and munitions. When the hell did I hop dimensions into the Philip K Dick dystopia universe, and can I go back to the one where airborn death from above is not being used, with tacit approval from the world, on a small, mostly unarmed, population of trapped civilians?

They are hemmed in on all sides by either fences, munitions, or the sea, and Israel has been bombing any boat that launches, and controls the fences except for the crossing at Rafah, where the Egyptians control the crossing. If a Palestinian goes towards the Israeli fences, they will be shot. To leave via Egypt, you have to have a visa, or a foreign (not Palestinian) passport, and you have to hope they Egyptian border guards haven't skedaddled away from the shelling happening less than 1000 feet away.

An entire city's worth of people are slowly being forced into an area not bigger than a few city blocks. They have been forced to leave everything behind, and it has all been destroyed. Israel has turned off the water, and bombed the power facilities and all other infrastructure. The dead are not being collected. Food is running out. Things are going to go from very bad, to "oh holy fucking hell, why didn't we stop this before now?" very soon.
posted by dejah420 at 8:42 PM on August 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


To systematically drive a people from their land, killing them and razing entire towns to the ground as you go is pretty much the textbook definition of ethnic cleansing, and no magic words spoken as you do it will turn it into something else.
posted by crayz at 9:20 PM on August 1, 2014 [6 favorites]


I think we're already there, dejah. But nothing will be done. The US won't act, for various reasons noted above by different people. As much as they should, the UN won't act because the US will exercise its veto. The only countries I can think of that might have the moral authority and the political will, I think, are probably in Scandinavia. Canada has the former, not the latter; ditto UK and I suspect ANZAC. France? Seems unlikely, to say the least. Germany would obviously be an awful, awful choice. Russia? That would provoke a shitstorm (one which might seem attractive to Putin to distract from Ukraine, but the history of pogroms would make them just as bad a choice as Germany). Who else? Spain? China FFS?

If any predominantly Arab/Muslim countries got involved, we get another but different shitstorm (and I am praying to a God I don't believe in that countries like Iran and Syria and so forth realize that, otherwise we're looking at where WWIII starts, probably).

Is there any country that could believably say to the government of Israel "If you keep doing this, we will bomb the fuck out of you so stop right now and sit down and talk like grownups," and is far enough away and big and powerful enough that the government would have to think really damn carefully before sending jets there?

The USA seems to be the only country with the might to make a credible threat in that direction, but the right, moral, ethical choice is obstructed by politics.

Is there any country that could do this without starting an all out war that would only result in more civilians dying? I hate thinking that some sort of military intervention is the only real answer to this problem but if nobody's talking, what else can you do? Unless there's a lot of backchannel negotiation going on? Doesn't seem to be having any effect, if there is.

Plus, Israel has nukes. So that's a concern too. I'd hope the Israeli leadership wouldn't be that stupid, but the rest of the world has essentially just taught them that they can murder children and adult civilians with impunity, so who knows how far that envelope might get pushed if the Israeli government feels like it's backed into a tight enough corner?

Egypt opening its borders to Palestinian refugees would at least stop them from being killed, but they'd never get back home again.

History will not judge the government of Israel well for this. But by the time it's history, all the Palestinians will be dead or gone unless something changes, and changes damn fast. How long before a large enough number of Palestinians just say 'fuck this' and charge the Israeli fences?

And maybe the most grotesque thing here isn't big, it's a small thing that for me at least makes the horror of this situation so palpable. It's not that you and I and pretty much everyone else in this thread are comfortably at home, far from guns and bombs, typing away on the internet. It's that I'm sitting here drinking a glass of water. The Israeli government won't even let Palestinians have that one, tiny measure of civilization and dignity. It's not enough to kill them; they have to be reduced to living as fleeing, terrified animals.

I wonder what would happen if hundreds--thousands--of civilians from around the world flew to Egypt and crossed into Gaza? (hopefully with food and water and medical supplies). Would the Israeli government stop then?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:15 PM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]




I hate thinking that some sort of military intervention is the only real answer

FFFM: You're grossly overestimating the ability of anyone but the United States to project power across the globe. The UK and France have a limited ability but that's it, and once they lost their (basically one) carrier they'd have lost even that.
posted by Justinian at 11:46 PM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Oh, I also think you're grossly underestimating the strength of the Israeli military. The Israeli air force would pound the shit out of any air force which threatened them, UK and France included.
posted by Justinian at 11:57 PM on August 1, 2014 [2 favorites]




The Israeli air force would pound the shit out of any air force which threatened them, UK and France included.

We went into Iraq, gave them freedom. We should do the same in Israel. Get rid of the current government. Free and fair elections. One man, one vote.

I'm pretty sure we park a few aircraft carriers there, we'll have enough firepower.
posted by mikelieman at 1:52 AM on August 2, 2014


We went into Iraq, gave them freedom.

Uh.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:59 AM on August 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


We went into Iraq, gave them freedom. We should do the same in Israel.

So first you thought the Israelis should go into Gaza and create some sort of civil authority and civil police to maintain order and be rid of the "criminal gang" Hamas. Now you think the US should go into Israel and give it "freedom" and "get rid of the current government." I presume you mean Gaza rather than Israel in that statement, but whether you meant toppling Hamas or toppling Yisrael Beiteinu, either would be immensely ridiculous.

Do you have any sense of how things are actually, practically accomplished?
Have you ever been part of an occupation force? Have you ever been part of an American occupation force? I have. It is tough and brutal and even the positive moments and good slivers of change had so very little to do with your oft-quoted "liberty and justice for all" or what have you.

You need to chill with the "Israel is un-American" and rah rah America bullshit. It's irrelevant, and there's frankly been quite enough of the attempt to re-make the Middle East in the US's image, and anyone who has ever seen it on the ground knows just how difficult and laughably insane it is.
posted by lullaby at 2:22 AM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I don't... mikelieman, you know all this furor is over Israel killing a thousand civilians right? When we went into Iraq we caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Half a million men, women, and children.

You guys are talking plain ol' crazy. Even if Israel wasn't an ally (and we've been and are allies with a lot of countries who have done far worse. Hell, we've done far worse.) they have hundreds of nuclear warheads. There will be no military intervention of any kind, by anyone. The only country who could do it is the United States. And we won't. It would be the height of hypocrisy given Iraq wasn't even a decade ago and the height of stupidity given the aforementioned nuclear weapons.
posted by Justinian at 2:33 AM on August 2, 2014


(no direct military intervetion I mean of course. Some countries will continue to support and arm Hamas.)
posted by Justinian at 2:35 AM on August 2, 2014


Gaza.

Hospitals targeted. Ambulances targeted. UNWRA shelters targeted. Civic and administrative offices reduced to rubble. Whole neighbourhoods reduced to rubble.

The Islamic University? Now targeted. Largest mosque? Now reduced to rubble.

A playbook: Israel's Dahiya doctrine
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:15 AM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


lol what. this isn't even close to true. Please provide some evidence for this. If you cite the charter from 1989 I will laugh because man propagandists cant get more predictable!

I think quoting an organisation's charter or constitution is proof of the highest degree, but surely you acknowledge that it's proof of some sort. So where's your refutation? "LOL" doesn't count.

Incidentally, am I the only one here who was an adult in 1989? Why is the fact that the charter dates from 1989 some sort of mark against it? People quote the US constitution, and I understand that that is older still.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:37 AM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Except that Hamas, regardless of what it did or did not say in its charter, does negotiate with Jews and Christians. At least, I presume that its recent reconciliation with Fatah involved some negotiations and certainly it has negotiated with Israel several times over the last few weeks regarding various short-term ceasefires.

Charters and constitutions are nice and all but they aren't self-executing. Regardless of whether they're explicitly written-out documents or compiled Westminster-style conventions, they are only as valid as the people who are implementing them.

Hamas demonstrates by its actions that it is both fully unable to carry out any sort of actual "driving the Jews into the sea" and that it will negotiate under certain conditions. You are free to disagree with Hamas' negotiating preconditions but I believe they have been very clear that a ceasefire will have to involve complete Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip (not just the cessation of actual shooting while the destruction of tunnels and such continues), and that for a ceasefire to be durable, the government of Israel will have to stop building settlements in the West Bank while peace talks are ongoing, and there will have to be meaningful, timely action on the blockade of Gaza.

Regardless of what we think about Hamas' ability to follow through on peace talks, it's pretty obvious to me that if there is going to be any chance for peace, both sides are going to have to freeze their actions, including from the Israeli side the destruction of Palestinian infrastructure and the building of Jewish colonies on Palestinian land.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:07 AM on August 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Haaretz Live Updates
-A senior official says no Israeli delegation will travel to Cairo for truce talks until further notice. "There's no point in promoting an agreement," he said, adding that Israel is considering ending the Gaza operation once deterance is restored.

"We're not talking about cease-fires anymore," he continued. "Israel will act in its own interest. We will take action against attacks from Gaza (Dahiyah), and will finish dealing with the tunnels."

"The inclination is to establish deterrence" and end the fighting by providing "quiet for quiet," the officer said. (Barak Ravid)

- Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah al-Sissi said at a press conference in Cairo that his country's initiative is the only way to reach a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas.

"The initiative can bring the current situation to an end," he said. "It can open doors without encountering obstacles, bring to a cease-fire and allow aid workers in.

"There is no alternative," he added.  

- Netanyahu said in a phone conversation with U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro that the Obama administration was "not to ever second-guess me again"
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:16 AM on August 2, 2014


the Obama administration was "not to ever second-guess me again"

0_o

I think it's time for a new urbandictionary definition of "overplaying one's hand". Does that guy realize how close he is to pushing the US over a tipping point?

So far, the consensus in Washington has been absolutely in favor of whatever Israel feels is necessary to do to maintain its security, as evidenced by recent unanimous declarations in the Senate and by the President's statements on the conflict.

The consensus in the rest of the States is rapidly breaking down and the politicians will be scrambling to catch up if things continue the way they have been.

Unless this means that the Israeli government have now resolved to go full Carthago delenda est on Gaza and face the music with new facts on the (barren) ground....
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:32 AM on August 2, 2014 [2 favorites]




"Netanyahu said in a phone conversation with U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro that the Obama administration was "not to ever second-guess me again"

Say what you will, but Netanyahu sure does have chutzpah.

More on chutzpah
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:55 AM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


There will be no negatives for Netanyahu. He is beloved by both parties of the US government and can say and do whatever he wants with no repercussions. He can depend on a US veto at the UN no matter what atrocities he presides over. He has US politicians from both parties falling all over themselves to prove who can suck his balls more tenderly and with more passion.
posted by chaz at 7:01 AM on August 2, 2014 [4 favorites]




chaz, I think maybe not for long. I don't know whether it's because of the intensification of IDF actions, the increasing flimsiness of Israeli justifications, the impact of social media on getting stories and images out of war zones in real time, more skepticism on the part of Americans about military solutions for counter-terrorism operations, or what. Probably an all-of-the-above thing.

But "Support For Israel" also used to be a third rail in US politics, right up there with Medicare, astronauts and apple pies. NOT NO MORE.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:11 AM on August 2, 2014


Except that Hamas, regardless of what it did or did not say in its charter, does negotiate with Jews and Christians.

I really don't think that's the case. It's possible (although I don't know) that there were Christians present at their negotiations with mostly-Muslim Fatah, but that's not a negotiation with a Jewish or Christian entity. The ceasefire "negotiations", to the best of my knowledge, did not involve any contact between Israel and Hamas.

In this context it's worth noting that a ceasefire, specifically, has a special and possibly unique position within their theology because of historical precedent and because it doesn't imply any acceptance of the enemy's rights or position. Hamas may be capable of agreeing to a ceasefire for a period of years, but not capable of agreeing to a peace treaty. In fact, I'm pretty sure that their leadership floated the possibility of a ceasefire as an alternative to a peace treaty in the past. The limitations of that are now obvious: Israel cannot afford to let Hamas rearm and rebuild its attack tunnels. It must have an actual peace treaty.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:15 AM on August 2, 2014


Have you seen any photos of Hamas' fighters? Forward them to the NYT!

NYT answers why not publishing photos of Hamas fighters
The response from the paper of record is simple and staggering: It doesn’t have any
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:23 AM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israel's nuclear arsenal makes them untouchable militarily, mikelieman. Israel does risk angering the U.S. seriously enough that they stop the military aid, but even that's unlikely. At minimum, America prefers to co-develop a working well-tested missile defense system like Iron Dome over some untested "Made In The USA" system. Also, Israel's Iron Beam apparently actually works btw, unlike Reagan's star-wars program.

Also, Israel's current operations in Gaza strongly resemble the U.S. operations in Fallujah, right down to the civilian death tolls. Except, (a) the U.S. used white phosphorus as a chemical weapon in Fallujah and (b) U.S. soldiers committed rape in Iraq, while Israeli soldier do not. Ain't so easy for Americans to condemn them right now.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:32 AM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]




White phosphorus is an incendiary, not a chemical weapon.
posted by rosswald at 7:50 AM on August 2, 2014


If upu've lost Amos Oz.... Oz: 'Lose-lose situation for Israel'

More bad news for UNRWA. Also, evidence of long planning by Hamas: Booby-trapped Explosive Built Into Walls of UNRWA Clinic
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:53 AM on August 2, 2014


White-phosphorous is an incendiary, not a chemical weapon.

The Israelis exploded white-phosphorus bombs over Gaza during Operation Cast Lead (2008-9). The Israeli government released a report in July 2009 that confirmed that the IDF used white-phosphorus.

White-phosphorous is really neat... not only does it sets things on fire but if you get the stuff on your skin you can watch it burn the skin away.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:12 AM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Justinian, I'm neither under- nor over-estimating capabilities anywhere. That's why I went through a list of everyone I could come up with off the top of my head, dismissed them all as possibilities, and said "The USA seems to be the only country with the might to make a credible threat in that direction, but the right, moral, ethical choice is obstructed by politics." Maybe you missed that part, I guess.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:15 AM on August 2, 2014


Oh, and that statement with Netanyahu... I don't read that as chutzpah at all. I read it as Bibi having completely lost his grip on reality.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:20 AM on August 2, 2014




Looks like another IDF war crime: Palestinian youths 'executed' in Gaza town

The Jerusalem Post's call for ethnic cleansing in Gaza: Into the fray: Why Gaza must go

Is Israel Committing a Genocide against the Palestinians of Gaza?

posted by Golden Eternity at 8:31 AM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Tivalasvegas can you point to any US politicians who are condemning the Israel assault on Gaza?

The fact that our congress can't agree on what day of the week it is but can be unanimous in their support of what is at the very least a somewhat controversial issue is... Weird?
posted by chaz at 8:37 AM on August 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


feckless fecal fear mongering: "I wonder what would happen if hundreds--thousands--of civilians from around the world flew to Egypt and crossed into Gaza? (hopefully with food and water and medical supplies). Would the Israeli government stop then?"



Yes, yes they do. Because now, the Egyptian government bows down before the Likud in Jerusalem. Before the Arab Spring, it wasn't difficult for Americans and Europeans to make unmarked (passport left unmarked), travel through the tunnels, if you knew who/where/what to ask and who to bribe. Now the border guards don't let anyone through without a visa. In either direction.

If you have even a drop of Palestinian blood, and have ever publicly expressed pity, remorse or compassion for the Palestinian people, you will be denied a visa to go to Israel, period. When my sister was 12, she went with her Catholic school to visit Bethlehem, and she never made it through security. They sent the entire school trip back, rather than allow a "return" of anyone who might have a land claim inside the land Israel has taken.

Our best bet for breaking the blockade is another armada. I'm currently putting feelers out to see if another one is really launching from Turkey. Point being, our only real chance to run the blockade is via the sea. Assuming you don't mind being murdered by the IDF, because they did it last time, and they'll get away with doing it again. What might work is if there is a big armada, and a small boat armada, and while the IDF is busy beating, killing and robbing everyone on the big armada, the small flotilla might be able to make a break for the beach.

In other words; Israel is untouchable. Fighting them is almost futile. And now, perhaps people can see why suicide bombers make sense to people who have been abandoned by the world and left to die in rains of hot metal. (Not an endorsement of siucide bombs, obviously.)
posted by dejah420 at 9:00 AM on August 2, 2014 [8 favorites]


White phosphorus is an incendiary, not a chemical weapon.

Previously: Sometimes it is; Sometimes it isn't.

Here's a working url for the first link.
posted by homunculus at 9:03 AM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Thank you to those still persevering in these dying embers of this thread speaking truth to the horrifying reality unfolding before us.

Being able to tune into this place where real people are putting their words to this is a small sliver of sanity to clutch onto when the alternative where the national news site is trumpeting "outrageous violation: Israel on the hunt for soldier".

Has the world consigned the Palestinian people to the dustbin? And why the fuck is everyone just rolling with it?
posted by Tuatara at 9:35 AM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I think quoting an organisation's charter or constitution is proof of the highest degree, but surely you acknowledge that it's proof of some sort. So where's your refutation? "LOL" doesn't count.

Incidentally, am I the only one here who was an adult in 1989? Why is te fact that the charter dates from 1989 some sort of mark against it? People quote the US constitution, and I understand that that is older still.


Text in a organization's charter is only proof of what is in that charter. The charter was written in 1988 when Hamas was still a wing of the Ikhwan. Quoting a text from 25 years ago to discuss what that organization does is like quoting the US constitution to 'prove' that no one in the US has ever owned slaves or that free speech has never been infringed.

Moreover, M'shal has stated that the charter is not relevant, the charter hasn't been adopted in any political program in nearly a decade, it doesn't do anything, doesn't govern anything, doesn't reflect the organization's current aims, goals, or tactics, its a historical document born out of the ashes of the intifada.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:52 AM on August 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


Yeah I feel much worse for the poor Palestinian man who lost his three kids and his wife when Israel bombed the place he was staying at after evacuating from his home. Incidentally, there are more dead civilians in that man's immediate family than Israel lost in this conflict.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:59 AM on August 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Mohammed Omar reports that the pharmacy he was sheltering in was almost hit. The bombardment of Rafah continues. The dead are piling up with no way to process them. The attacks came from the air, the sea and the ground, and have lasted for over 24 hours.

Entire neighborhoods have been destroyed. There is nothing for the Palestinians to "go back" to. It's gone.

Here's a dispatch from the Post's Bureau Chief: Never like this before
posted by dejah420 at 10:00 AM on August 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Has the world consigned the Palestinian people to the dustbin? And why the fuck is everyone just rolling with it?

Well the world does have sympathy for the Palestinian people and what Israel is doing to them. But what can they do? Israel is underwritten by US tax dollars. If you want to stop Israel stop the money flows from the US.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:01 AM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]




the ashes of the intifada

Out of which, I have no doubt, is going to be born the next one. How does the Israeli government not understand that these horrific atrocities are exactly how suicide bombers are born?

Speaking of which, it seems pretty unambiguous that the Israeli government has perpetrated war crimes. Who has standing to get them in front of the tribunal at The Hague?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:56 AM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


The flotilla in 2010 was headed up by the IHH. Here is their English page. IHH is the only non-UN humanitarian group still on the ground in Gaza. I don't see anything about a new flotilla, but I suppose I could have missed it.
posted by dejah420 at 11:02 AM on August 2, 2014


We went into Iraq, gave them freedom.

Uh.


Um.
posted by homunculus at 11:08 AM on August 2, 2014


LRB: Hamas’s Chances (Nathan Thrall). A thorough review of Hamas's situation leading up to the slaughter.

Chomsky: Gaza's Torment, Israel's Crimes, Our Responsibilities

Israeli professor's 'rape as terror deterrent' statement draws ire
"The only thing that can deter terrorists, like those who kidnapped the children and killed them, is the knowledge that their sister or their mother will be raped.” This assertion was made by Middle East scholar Dr. Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University about three weeks ago on an Israel Radio program. “It sounds very bad, but that’s the Middle East,” added Kedar, of Bar-Ilan’s Department of Arabic.
Juan Cole: Are Israelis and Zionists really talking about a Final Solution of the Palestinian Problem?
That Gordon’s piece initially appeared at one of Israel’s largest-circulation newspapers is extremely worrying. Democracies don’t advocate murder or genocide. Did the editor not read it? Or did he read it and agree with it?

In any case, one thing is clear. Too many Israelis have justifications in their minds for genocide. This includes alleging that children are not innocent non-combatants. And the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, makes another thing clear: Advocating genocide is a crime for which one can be tried at the Hague.
How does the Israeli government not understand that these horrific atrocities are exactly how suicide bombers are born?

The government understands that these atrocities are how it kills the two-state solution a little more each time and subsumes more Palestinian land. When is the last time a suicide bomber did any real damage to Israel? ( I'm not advocating for suicide bombing or suggesting that Israelis deserve to be harmed in any way).
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:14 AM on August 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


"The only thing that can deter terrorists, like those who kidnapped the children and killed them, is the knowledge that their sister or their mother will be raped.”

Holy fuck I want to puke forever
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:24 AM on August 2, 2014


feckless fecal fear mongering: "
Speaking of which, it seems pretty unambiguous that the Israeli government has perpetrated war crimes. Who has standing to get them in front of the tribunal at The Hague?
"


There's an interesting answer to that.

Protocol 1 (additional), Article 51 (3) of the Geneva Conventions is designed to provide civilians immunity from attack "unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities." Articles 76 (women) and 77 (children), 15 (civilian medical personnel and religious) and 79 (journalist) provide special protections for each category respectively.

Israel is not a signatory to Protocol 1, but surprisingly enough Palestine is, because the Palestinian Authority signed the accord on February 4, 2014, even while the United States and Israel opposed them being allowed to do so.

In 2009, Palestine gained recognition as a nonmember observer state, and according to Luis Moreno Ocampo, a former International Criminal Court (ICC) prosecutor, may qualify as a state and gain full status as an ICC member. If they are considered a "state", it would enable Palestine to bring war crimes charges against Israel, under a provision that allows for the charges of crimes committed before gaining state recognition as long as the alleged crimes occurred after the formation of the ICC in 2002.

In fact, the United States and Israel both opposed Palestine's full membership in the UN specifically because it would allow the Palestinians to potentially join the International Criminal Court, and bring war crime charges.

In April 2014, Samantha Power, US Ambassador to the UN, was clear when she said that the United States is in "firm opposition to any and all unilateral [Palestinian] actions in the international arena" because they "really pose a profound threat to Israel" and would be "devastating to the peace process."

(Adapted from: The Dahiya Doctrine: State Terrorism and a Philosophy of War Crime.)
posted by dejah420 at 2:09 PM on August 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


This video, of a 26 July event in Tel Aviv was published by Israeli journalist Haim Har-Zahav, and shows an Israeli mob actually singing in celebration of children’s deaths in the style of a soccer fans’ song: “In Gaza there’s no studying, No children are left there, Olé, olé, olé-olé-olé.” The mob also incites directly against Ahmed Tibi and Haneen Zoabi, two prominent Palestinian citizens of Israel who are members of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament.

Here is a translation of what the mob is singing:

Tibi – Ahmed Tibi
I wanted you to know
The next kid to be hurt will be your kid
I hate Tibi
I hate Tibi the terrorist.
Tibi – is dead!
Tibi – is dead!
Tibi – is dead!

Tibi is a terrorist.
Tibi is a terrorist.
Tibi is a terrorist.

They’ll take their papers away.
They’ll take their papers away.
They’ll take their papers away.
Olé, olé, olé-olé-olé
In Gaza there’s no studying
No children are left there,
Olé, olé, olé-olé-olé,

[Three lines, not entirely clear]

Who is getting nervous, I hear?
Zoabi, this here is the Land of Israel
This here is the Land of Israel, Zoabi
This here is the Land of the Jews
I hate you, I do, Zoabi
I hate all the Arabs.
Oh-oh-oh-oh
Gaza is a graveyard
Gaza is a graveyard
Gaza is a graveyard
Gaza is a graveyard

This is what our 8.5 million dollars a day in American tax dollars is supporting. Hooligans screaming for murder and singing joyously about the murder of children. You know, not for nothing, but I would have rather had a bridge than support a generation of ethnic cleansers, I'm just saying.
posted by dejah420 at 2:48 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Has the world consigned the Palestinian people to the dustbin? And why the fuck is everyone just rolling with it?

For the same reason everyone just rolled with the USA killing so many Iraqis; because there's no way to stop it which doesn't involve even more killing.
posted by Justinian at 2:54 PM on August 2, 2014


This video, of a 26 July event in Tel Aviv was published by Israeli journalist Haim Har-Zahav, and shows an Israeli mob actually singing in celebration of children’s deaths in the style of a soccer fans’ song

This is like something you would've expected to hear at a Klu Klux Klan rally during the Civil Rights era. These people are psychotic.
posted by homunculus at 3:23 PM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


These soccer fans (or whoever they are) are expressing repulsive sentiments through song; Gaza's government is doing it with missiles. It's probably going to be hard to change these guys' sentiments while the missiles are falling.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:56 PM on August 2, 2014


"These soccer fans (or whoever they are) are expressing repulsive sentiments through song; Israel's government is doing it with missiles. It's probably going to be hard to change these guys' sentiments while the missiles are falling." - Never said by Joe in Australia when MEMRI finds something hateful said or sung by Palestinians.

(And one could add invasions, the Occupation with its pulled out blockades and now a buffer zone, and a massive civilian death toll to that).
posted by Gnatcho at 4:15 PM on August 2, 2014


You'll be hard pressed to find any comment from me on some random Palestinian being racist, because how is that significant? Even at a more official level, I'm sure you know how easy it is to find videos of clerics calling for the massacre of Jews, but I take that sort of stuff for granted.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:53 PM on August 2, 2014


The soldier whose kidnapping ended the most recent ceasefire has been declared dead.
IDF declares death of missing officer Hadar Goldin
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:00 PM on August 2, 2014


These soccer fans (or whoever they are) are expressing repulsive sentiments through song; Gaza's government is doing it with missiles. It's probably going to be hard to change these guys' sentiments while the missiles are falling.

Isn't this remarkable? It's like a case study of the "backfire effect," how beliefs become even more rigid when one is confronted with contrary evidence. My side bombed some kids? No, it was a remarkably accurate misfired Hamas rocket showing the hideousness of the other side! My side (just a marginal few) is saying disgusting things? It's evidence that the other side is repulsive and can't be bargained with or placated! A thoughtful Israeli peacenik whose family was in the Holocaust contemplates her citizenship? Turn in your passport, lady, and don't let the door hit you on the behind because the other side is hateful and doesn't get it! I'm trying really hard to not "backfire" here myself. I recognize how terribly hard it must be to live amidst violence and threats of rocket attacks and hatred (though Israelis and Arabs seemed to live somewhat peacefully among one another in Jerusalem back in the day when I visited). My fear is that it will be hard to ever change Gazans' feelings about Israelis while bombs are falling and for years afterward and for them not to feel terrified of the anti-Semitic (I mean it in the sense of anti-Palestinian) wave of Israeli sentiment that appears to threaten their existence.
posted by faux ami at 5:02 PM on August 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


"The only thing that can deter terrorists, like those who kidnapped the children and killed them, is the knowledge that their sister or their mother will be raped.”

Wow, this is like, an amazing example of a moment that should make people stop and do this.

If your side is the side saying that... you're probably the bad guys.

Also yes, all the vomit, forever and ever.
posted by emptythought at 5:09 PM on August 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


These soccer fans (or whoever they are) are expressing repulsive sentiments through song; Gaza's government is doing it with missiles.

The sentiment they're expressing is approval of the actions of their Government and Military, specifically the killing of hundreds of school-age children. Your sentence makes it seem as if those feelings and the actions of the government are somehow exclusive, when in fact they're deeply intertwined.
posted by cell divide at 5:09 PM on August 2, 2014


They're expressing approval of their government, perhaps, but their government isn't expressing approval of them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:14 PM on August 2, 2014


Joe in Australia: "They're expressing approval of their government, perhaps, but their government isn't expressing approval of them."

No?

Ayelet Shaked, a member of the Israeli Parliament from the ultra-nationalist and ultra-religious Jewish Home Party whose leader, Naftali Bennett has been touted as a future Israeli Prime Minister said, and I quote:
What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”


Oh, but you say, that's just one crazy eyed Angel of Death. How about Israel’s Deputy Speaker Moshe Feiglin, who has called for the ‘elimination’ of Palestinian life in Gaza. Renowned Israeli academic Mordechai Kedar proposed the use of rape against female relatives of Palestinian armed resistance fighters as a ‘preventative’ measure.

And let's not leave the general populace of Israel out of this fun. A poll conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute at Tel Aviv University has found that just 4% of Jewish Israelis believe excessive force has been used on Gaza, while more then 50% argue not enough.
Oh, and these reactions to a Palestinian boy being kidnapped, forced to drink gas, and then set on fire to burn alive, while the kidnappers stopped anyone from helping him until the flames consumed him on the Support the IDF facebook page. Or these precious darlings calling for racial purity? The sign, in case your Hebrew is rusty, reads: Hating Arabs is Not Racism, It’s Moral Values.

The Likud and the rest of the hard right have been fomenting this hatred against Palestinians for decades...and this horror unfolding before us, these dead babies, and massacred civilians, these streets that run with innocent blood as screaming death machines drop explosion after explosion, this rubble, this devastation, this death...this is state-sponsored, state-approved genocide.
posted by dejah420 at 6:14 PM on August 2, 2014 [13 favorites]


What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy

That's a call for civil war. 20% of the Israeli citizens are Arab and not Jewish. 1.6 million people.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:25 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


"They're expressing approval of their government, perhaps, but their government isn't expressing approval of them."

Why would the government disapprove of their people's support of the government's own actions?
posted by Mavri at 6:26 PM on August 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Oh, and for the record: When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that has now cost upwards of 1,700 lives, and displaced more than a full quarter of the population permanently because Israel has just taken half of Gaza as a "buffer".

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were maybe not so much Hamas. More Hamas-like, you know, someone who knew someone in Hamas. Hamasish, as it were.
posted by dejah420 at 6:31 PM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


That NY Magazine link seems to have evaporated.

Though to be honest, I've thought it was people working for the Israeli government all along. It was too convenient for them, and too inconvenient for everyone else. Perhaps a gang of their street shock-troops with not terribly plausible plausible deniability. With the accord between different Palestinian groups looming they needed a pretext to unleash Operation Enormous Throbbing Penis or whatever they're calling this one.
posted by Grangousier at 6:39 PM on August 2, 2014


This war has been a total disaster for Israel. Just really exposing how their current strategy is not working. Simply not working at all. What are they going to do, have to launch these strikes into built up urban areas every few years? They're literally looking for COIN fights. Why would you ever do that? It is the most debilitating type of war for a country. Drags on and costs and costs.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:40 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Dejah420, would the war have been justified if the kidnappers had been working under the direct command of Hamas? And would the war not have been justified by the fact that Hamas considers itself to be in a state of war with Israel and has been constantly attacking it? That was the reason for the blockade, back in 2006, and it's the reason the war is still going on. What is the point of the continued missile fire? Is it helping the people of Gaza? Certainly not: Israel and the Palestinians were progressing along a "roadmap" that was to conclude with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza; the withdrawal from Gaza (that led to the present situation) was an accelerated step on that roadmap. What I would love to see is Palestinian forces moving into Gaza and bringing it under control of the Palestinian Authority. That's what Israel asked for (again, back in 2006) and Mahmoud Abbas basically said that Hamas was Israel's problem. Well, yes it is, but it's also the Palestinians'.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:40 PM on August 2, 2014


Certainly not: Israel and the Palestinians were progressing along a "roadmap" that was to conclude with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza

They were not progressing. That's completely the opposite of the reality. They were stalled hard and the US said this isn't helping so we're not going to be facilitating any talks between you.

Israel lost this war. Their political aims (war is politics by other means) were not met. Surviving in counter insurgency is a win.

Israel cannot achieve any more with military force against the Palestinians. It will not ever achieve any more by military attacks on Palestinians any more.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:50 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe in Australia: "That was the reason for the blockade, back in 2006,"

Oh, you mean the blockade where Israel decided to starve the Palestinians out because they didn't like the results of a free election?

Yeah, why would the Palestinians get up in arms about being systematically starved to death? That just seems crazy, doesn't it?


And the reason Bibi got all up in this war now, is because Hamas was working with the PA, and preparing to ask for statehood at the UN. The unity government was sworn in a week or so before the f16s started dropping hot death on little girls. Bibi was NOT HAPPY.
The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, chairing a security cabinet following the signing, told ministers: "Today, Abu Mazen [as President Mahmoud Abbas is known] said yes to terrorism and no to peace."

The meeting voted to authorise Netanyahu to impose unspecified sanctions against the Palestinian Authority, adding that it would now hold the Palestinian Authority "responsible" for any attacks originating from the Gaza Strip.

Israel also said it would act – including in the international community –to prevent Palestinian elections taking place which included the participation of Hamas.
So yeah, the Palestinians are damned if they do, and damned if they don't, but either damn way, Bibi is headed for the beach.
posted by dejah420 at 7:04 PM on August 2, 2014 [8 favorites]


Grangousier: "That NY Magazine link seems to have evaporated. "

Hmm, weird. I probably borked the url somehow. Try this: Hamas not complicit in teens’ kidnap: Israeli police

The Israeli Police Foreign Press Spokesman, Micky Rosenfeld, appears to have falsified the Israeli government’s claim that Hamas was responsible for the killing of three Israeli settler teens in June, by saying responsibility lies with a lone cell that operated without the complicity of Hamas’ leadership.
posted by dejah420 at 7:10 PM on August 2, 2014


dejah420: “But now, officials admit the kidnappings were maybe not so much Hamas. More Hamas-like, you know, someone who knew someone in Hamas. Hamasish, as it were.”
Grangousier: “That NY Magazine link seems to have evaporated. ”
dejah420: “Hmm, weird. I probably borked the url somehow.”
You accidentally inserted a couple of extra ells at the end. The correct link is http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html instead of '….htmlll'.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:15 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Newspeople really need to be more careful with their nomenclature. Those three teens were kidnapped. The Israeli soldier that has been in the news for the last day or two (who is now reported dead) was not kidnapped, he was captured. Those are two different things.
posted by Justinian at 7:19 PM on August 2, 2014


These soccer fans (or whoever they are) are expressing repulsive sentiments through song; Gaza's government is doing it with missiles. It's probably going to be hard to change these guys' sentiments while the missiles are falling

You have got to be fucking joking.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:23 PM on August 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oh, it appears he may have been killed in battle. But the points remains; if he had ended up in Hamas' hands it would have been because they captured him. Not kidnapped him as the news keeps reporting.
posted by Justinian at 7:23 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


These soccer fans (or whoever they are) are expressing repulsive sentiments through song; Gaza's government is doing it with missiles. It's probably going to be hard to change these guys' sentiments while the missiles are falling

Aside from this being a ridiculous comparison (where is IDF in all this?) as a Jewish American, I am personally offended when any Jew thinks it is okay to wish death on a child.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:27 PM on August 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


I do have Jewish heritage, grew up with both Hanukkah & Christmas etc., but..

As a human goddamn being I am personally offended when anyone thinks it's okay to wish death on a child, you know?

Not criticizing you in the least, and let's be real, you have way more at stake here in terms of identity. Just saying that 'hey maybe wishing death on children is wrong' is, or should be, a universal concept. But, again, you have much more immediate heritage and identity tied up in this--in some ways, you are associated with the pisswizards in the Israeli government and the utter monkeyfucking assbags saying this shit (not that I would associate you with them in any way; you are humane)--so nothing I am saying is a dig at you or a one-up or anything, and I really really hope it is not coming across that way. If it is, let me know.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:32 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


you have much more immediate heritage and identity tied up in this--in some ways, you are associated with the pisswizards in the Israeli government and the utter monkeyfucking assbags saying this shit (not that I would associate you with them in any way; you are humane)--so nothing I am saying is a dig at you or a one-up or anything, and I really really hope it is not coming across that way

Yes, sure. But also, my siblings and I were taught at a very young age that things like the Holocaust happened because of hatred, and such a huge part of our Jewish cultural identity is wrapped up in the idea that hatred and discrimination are not (Conservative) Jewish values.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:37 PM on August 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Oh, totally. No Jewish person I've ever known (or at least with whom deep subjects like this have come up in conversation with) would countenance hatred and genocide; it's the opposite of Conservative, Reform, and (more limited experience) Orthodox opinion and teaching, in those conversations I've had.

Which makes me wonder even more what the actual fuck Bibi and his cronies, and the racist shitbags, are thinking.

A few years ago Bibi was staying at a hotel I worked at. I choose to believe, now, that the food that I made never touched his lips (I know it went to his suite; there were dudes from I dunno, Mossad probably or whoever's in charge of his security in the damn kitchen watching our every move) because oh my fuck, the idea that I have given sustenance to that monster makes me so sick. So very, very sick. This is a man who has ordered the death of children. Or if not specifically ordered, is responsible, which amounts to the same thing.

Historically, what happens to these guys? They end up hanging from lampposts or shot in a basement. He gets to act with impunity.

I don't believe in G-d (respect to your faith, and again I hope that's not coming across wrong). But the atrocities he and the Israeli government are perpetrating make me hope I'm wrong, because the idea of them dying and G-d saying "Oh boy, did you fuck up" when they think they're getting their reward makes me feel there might be some justice that they will, eventually, face. Cuz they ain't facing any on earth, that's for sure.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:00 PM on August 2, 2014


Bibi needs to be given enough rope right now. All the factual realizations that are needed to be grasped for a cease fire to occur are on Israel's side.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:46 AM on August 3, 2014


I understand the pragmatism of your statement, Ironmouth, but these are the people who are swinging from that rope. The Israeli leadership is too well protected by the US to ever see any consequences. Hell, it's still illegal to call for a boycott of Israel in this country. Consequences, smonsequences. There are no consequences for Israel. There never have been, there never will be. That's why they feel safe being so blatant about collective punishment and slow motion genocide.
posted by dejah420 at 1:43 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Sunday. Reports that an UNRWA 'safe haven' shelter in Rafah, southern Gaza, hit by shells. Palestinian fatalities? Seven, 10, more than 10, depending on source. Physically wounded? Double digits. UNWRA states it gave IDF co-ordinates numerous times. Media requests to IDF for comment... the usual... "We are investigating".
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:13 AM on August 3, 2014


Would you prefer that they not investigate?

Everybody here was outraged at the apparent attack on a school in Beit Hanoun about a week ago. People pooh-poohed the idea that it might be anything other than a malicious or deliberately callous Israeli attack. Lo, after some time it transpired that it was probably an attack by Hamas - not definitely so, but there's very good reason to think that was the case. The same thing happened in the last Gaza war - in that case it took a UN investigation nearly a year to determine the facts. So perhaps when the IDF says that it's investigating it would be a good idea to give them a bit of time to look into things. A war zone isn't the easiest place to investigate, particularly when its opponents are threatening witnesses and destroying evidence.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:33 AM on August 3, 2014


In case people don't remember this cable from the Wikileaks cables of a couple years ago:

"Israeli officials have confirmed to
Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to
keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level
possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis."
posted by cell divide at 2:49 AM on August 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


What I don't get is why so much attention is focused on the civilian deaths in Gaza while virtually none is being paid to the civilians killed by the government of Ukraine despite the numbers being roughly comparable. Note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't be paying attention to the deaths in Gaza, I just don't understand why nobody seems to care about the dead Ukrainian civilians by comparison. Hell, people are calling to intervene on the side of the Ukrainian government but against the Israeli government. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Killing civilians is killing civilians.
posted by Justinian at 4:34 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


The actual cable is a lot less interesting than the pull-quote: it just says that Israel refused to transfer yet more money (i.e., more than around USD $30 million per month) into the Gaza strip, arguing that it would end up paying Hamas' salaries. Here's the bit I thought was interesting:
The GOI's monetary policy towards Gaza is consistent with its declaration that Gaza is a "hostile entity." Some observers have told Emboffs that political pressure arising from the issue of captured Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, may have influenced high-level Israeli officials to tighten their stance on monetary policy (see ref &A8). However, this has not been raised or confirmed by any high-level GOI contacts.
So all this was at a time when Hamas was keeping a kidnapped Israeli hostage, and posting mocking videos about it. I can understand why US embassy officials would think it might affect the Israelis' attitude.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:35 AM on August 3, 2014


According to this report (3 August 2014) in Der Speigel... Wiretapped: Israel Eavesdropped on John Kerry in Mideast Talks
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:41 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


a kidnapped Israeli hostage

No. As the cable says, he was a 'captured Israeli soldier'. You know, a prisoner-of-war.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:55 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


I just don't understand why nobody seems to care about the dead Ukrainian civilians by comparison

Just off the top of my head...

1) America couldn't immediately prevent those deaths in the way that they could the Palestinians'
2) There is a super-obvious solution to the IPC (2-state solution) that is supported by the international community that keeps being thwarted by America and Israel
3) The IPC is the longest military occupation in modern history
4) The Palestinians aren't just killed but put under siege -- that is, they have little chance of escaping the conflict, starved, denied clean water, denied adequate shelter, etc. (and have been for years)
5) There are religious dimensions to the conflict
6) Any incursion by Israel into Palestinian territory can be seen as continuing a pattern of ongoing dispossession and slow ethnic cleansing that has been going on since 1948
7) The state of Israel occupies a unique place in many (influential) people's culture / religion / philosophy / eschatology / whatever
8) The conflict is so obviously one-sided; the Palestinians have absolutely no one to defend them...
9) Aside from international outcry, which gives outsiders an incentive to care and make noise about it
10) There are symbols analogous with past circumstances that are indicative of oppression (e.g. building a huge concrete wall to keep people out sounds awfully like the Berlin Wall to many)

Maybe there's more.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:58 AM on August 3, 2014 [9 favorites]


Gilad Shalit was captured on the Israeli side of the border, via one of Hamas' terror tunnels built for that purpose. That isn't capturing a prisoner of war; it's kidnapping.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:40 AM on August 3, 2014


So when the IDF captures a Hamas soldier in Gaza or the West Bank that is also kidnapping? What if they took him back to Israel in one of their "terror tanks" or "terror helicopters"?
posted by crayz at 5:49 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Don't argue with me; argue with the ICRC.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:54 AM on August 3, 2014


Not criticizing you in the least, and let's be real, you have way more at stake here in terms of identity.

Diaspora Jews do have more at stake - we can't escape it. And a lot of us are expected to support Israel, and no wrong will be heard. The Reform movement first denied Zionism in the 1880s, but now has support for the state of Israel as an essential part of its central tenets. What does it mean to be Jewish if you don't support a religious state or a state in which citizenship is defined by religion/ethnicity? A safe haven for Jews is essential, but can that safety come at the destruction of another people?

The other day, in the middle of Shabbat services, a visitor from Israel gave a speech repeating many completely false things about the war. Not just subjective matters one can disagree with, but objectively false facts about the war, gathered from the Israeli equivalent of Fox News. I wouldn't actually know, except that I happen to live with an expert on military affairs who could say, "Yeah, you can't fire those rockets from a building. The first type have to be carried on a truck, and the second would blow up the whole building" (only with more details because he's, you know, an expert).

Several of us were very upset that this happened in the middle of service - frankly, my worship was ruined by what was, essentially, a tirade against Palestinians and a call to support Likud. But when we went to go speak to our rabbi - our environmentalist, feminist, pro-LGBT rights, concerned with social justice rabbi, administering to a congregation that is just about as progressive - she said that she'd already had several people upset that she hadn't been more stridently pro-Israel (she's been posting more neutral war-is-bad, all-life-matters articles), and thanking her for having this (tragically misinformed) speaker at service.

I wasn't raised Jewish - I don't have a childhood of anti-semitism to deal with. Maybe this gives me a very different perspective. But I would hope that the experience of discrimination would sensitise people to discrimination by race/ethnicity/religion - as it did for the many Jewish Americans involved in the Civil Rights movement. But there is also a certain tribalism that appears when Israel comes up. My thoughtful, critical-thinking Rabbi only has her news from Israeli sources, particularly as regards this war.
posted by jb at 6:05 AM on August 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


Would you prefer that they not investigate?

Of fucking course not. What we would prefer is that they not abrogate the Geneva conventions or basic standards of human decency--even in war, if you can call this a war and not slow-motion genocide--first.

Joe. I respect that you are a thoughtful commenter on this site. But in this specific case your ideology is trumping what I know to be an insightful mind. Please, for the love of whatever you hold sacred, step back. Examine what you are saying. Examine what the Israeli government is actually doing--killing children, turning off basic life supplies (water), destroying infrastructure (power stations), bombing hospitals. And take a moment to think about whether those things are concordant with reasonable military goals, or whether they are about destroying an entire people. As a thought experiment, replace 'Israel' with 'Iraq' and 'Palestinian' with 'America.' Would you be saying the same things?

Please. I beg you. Your commentary here has moved further and further into "Israel is right no matter what" territory without paying attention to actual facts on the ground. You're smarter than that. Please, again I am begging you, demonstrate to us that you understand that. Because so very much of what you are saying is "Israel, fuck yeah!" instead of a nuanced understanding of what the government of Israel is actually doing.

Please? You don't know me. But, for me--not for some abstracted notion of justice or nationhood or whatever, just for another human being sharing this world and this website--for me, could you please take some time to actually absorb everything that's being said and linked to here and realize that an extrapolation of your attitude is precisely what is killing children in Gaza?

Please?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:18 AM on August 3, 2014 [8 favorites]


I just don't understand why nobody seems to care about the dead Ukrainian civilians by comparison.

Because we have war-news exhaustion. Because we don't understand that conflict as well (not having 20+ years of fighting to learn it). Because social media isn't being used to get out videos of unarmed people looking for bodies being shot by snipers.

from what I do of the Ukraine crisis, it's a lot less one sided. The Russians have been supplying arms and personnel to the rebels - Russian military personnel were seen in uniform supporting rebels in Crimea.

That said, I'm also inclined to a two-state solution over war in Ukraine. If the majority of the population in one area really wishes to join Russia, I believe that they should be allowed to. That said, the vote would have to be fair & open, and not following ethnic cleansing whereby all dissenters were chased out first.

And it won't lead to peace if Russia just takes that as an excuse to plan more troops as "civilian rebels" and take over further parts of Ukraine.

Self-determination is important. (I also support Gilbralter & the Falkland Islands staying British - as that is the will of the overwhelming majority of people in those places).
posted by jb at 6:19 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


The Luntz report, officially entitled The Israel project's 2009 Global Language Dictionary, for use by those "who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel".
The secret report that helps Israel hide facts.
posted by adamvasco at 6:19 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


FFFM, I respect your feelings on this, but I think your assessment is wrong. Hamas is directly responsible for many of these deaths - how many we may never know, because they tightly control the flow of information from Gaza. They are morally responsible for the others, because this is their war; one that Israel neither wants nor can end. You believe that if Israel withdrew the war would end; I think it would continue, with Hamas' weapons continuing to grow in sophistication; with Hamas' influence continuing to grow in the West Bank; with Gazans themselves living in terror of a brutal, theocratic, criminal cult. I hope the war ends soon, and with Hamas' overthrow. In the meantime, I don't think it does anyone any favors to give Hamas a free pass by pretending that its techniques do not kill bystanders - deliberately, accidentally, directly, or otherwise.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:52 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Hamas is directly responsible for many of these deaths

That's just incredibly untrue. Blaming the victims?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


WRONG, Joe.

Israel is directly and morally responsible for the deaths in Palestine, because the Israeli government caused them.

And nobody but fucking nobody here is giving Hamas a free pass. If you disgaree, by all means please quote people who are saying otherwise. It's not a zero-sum game; castigating the IDF and the government that controls them doesn't absolve Hamas of what they have done.

But the simple, stark reality is that whoever has the power--in this case the Israeli government--is morally culpable for what that government does. You know, like killing fucking innocent fucking children.

Until you accept that, there is no point in anything you say.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:05 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Israeli Police have released dramatic CCTV footage of the moment a Border Police officer thwarted a major terrorist attack by hurling himself into a car packed with explosives to apprehend a fleeing terrorist.

The occurred last week, after a vehicle drew the suspicion of police at a checkpoint in Gush Etzion, south of Jerusalem. After being flagged down and initially stopping, the nervous-looking driver attempted to escape, driving off with Border Police Commander Yeshurun Zoran still half inside the car.
Arutz Sheva/YouTube
posted by rosswald at 7:19 AM on August 3, 2014


And the point of that is what exactly, rosswald?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:20 AM on August 3, 2014


Why am I the only one getting questioned about my links? Read it yourself, make up your own mind.
posted by rosswald at 7:21 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


I asked you a question. What was your motivation in posting that? What does it add to the conversation?

Yes, ok, a 'terrorist' attack. Maybe you could explain how else the citizens and leadership of Gaza are supposed to fight back when they are hemmed in on all sides and the oppressor has even shut off clean goddamn water?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:24 AM on August 3, 2014


Or are you suggesting that the recipients of genocide shouldn't be fighting back?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:25 AM on August 3, 2014


Ok, I've read it. One car, leaving Israel, not going in. And this compares to 1700 dead civilians how, exactly?
posted by dejah420 at 7:26 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Wait hold on.. leaving Israel?

As in, not trying to blow up Israelis?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:28 AM on August 3, 2014


What was your motivation in posting that? What does it add to the conversation?

No one who posts articles to AJE or ElectronicIntifada is having to explain their motivations for posting links? What is Noisy Pink Bubbles motivation for dropping in 5 Democracy Now links every other day?
posted by rosswald at 7:29 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


You're evading the question. That only happens when people know that answering a question will lay bare their motives.

So. Answer?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:31 AM on August 3, 2014


I am out. I sincerely apologize for posting a link that wasn't to an Op-Ed decrying Israel's actions. Perhaps in the next thread I will do better and you will let me participate?
posted by rosswald at 7:33 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


if you're not willing to make a cogent argument, you really aren't participating anyway
posted by pyramid termite at 7:37 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm not saying you can't participate, nor is anyone else. But in the face of actual war crimes committed by Israel's government, your linking is suspect in its motivation. Your refusal to say why you posted it makes it even more suspect.

Really, it's not tough. MeFi in general wants people to justify what they say. All I'm asking you to do is abide by site norms. That you're not speaks volumes about why you have posted the various things you have.

Defend yourself believably and you may well change minds. Scurry away as soon as what you are saying is challenged, and conclusions will be drawn. It's up to you how you wish to be perceived.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:37 AM on August 3, 2014


Mod note: Everybody just fucking cool it. There's a reason this topic goes so high on people's lists of things Metafilter Doesn't Do Well and it's largely the weird personal toxicity that creeps into these perpetual You're Wrong, No You Are cycles when everybody's already feeling shitty and entrenched about the situation.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:42 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


My father's rabbi just posted this to Facebook, which I find comfort in: "At services Friday night, at CBST we listed the names and ages of all the Palestinian children killed along with all the Israelis killed."

At least some Jewish communities here are remembering all of the victims.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:07 AM on August 3, 2014 [14 favorites]


I should add to that of course that the civilian men and women should be remembered as well, but at lest naming the children is something.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:08 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]




Re the CCTV link above, an acquaintance in Jerusalem says that the driver was a settler headed to one of the settlements near Gaza. I am failing to find more about it, however. Also upstream someone said Hamas who was responsible for the bombing of the UN shelter. I can't find any verification of that either, is there a UN statement, or is that interpretation of the IDF statement about why they shelled that building? Because the shells on the ground at that building are the munitions dropped from fighter jets. Of which, Hamas has exactly zero. Israel destroyed the airport in Gaza a decade ago, even if Hamas had the resources to build billion dollar war machines.

In the meantime, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is horrific. No water, no electricity, generators running out of fuel, bombs constantly falling, and food is nonexistent for most of the territory. We are watching the systematic destruction of a trapped population, and nobody in power will do anything to stop it.
posted by dejah420 at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


This seems to be the Israeli style of public relations.
posted by adamvasco at 8:57 AM on August 3, 2014


dejah, I just want to take a moment to thank you for such level-headed but clear and passionate commentary in this thread. Maybe it's gross to thank you for grace coming from such obvious pain, but I hope it's not. Thank you.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:01 AM on August 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


Know how I am sure the Israeli Government is full of shit?

Consider their scenario. Drone and satellite spotters show a Hamas rocket being driven to its launch site. They give the co-ordinates to the artillery squad, and tell them to fire. They watch the fall, and radio in corrections.

So, where's the realtime video of the Hamas guys setting these things up when the shells are called in?

Thousands of them, and no videos to support Israel's claims.

That's how I'm sure.
posted by mikelieman at 9:42 AM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


"The city must completely disappear from the surface of the earth and serve only as a transport station for the Wehrmacht. No stone can remain standing. Every building must be razed to its foundation." – SS chief Heinrich Himmler, 17 October, SS officers conference[73]
posted by mikelieman at 9:55 AM on August 3, 2014


Sunday. Reports that an UNRWA 'safe haven' shelter in Rafah, southern Gaza, hit by shells.

Gaza conflict: UN school struck in Rafah by Israeli air strike
posted by homunculus at 9:58 AM on August 3, 2014


IDF admits soldier was not taken by Hamas. Shelling continues none the less, because hey, they just got a new shipment of bombs, and those things go bad if you don't use them.
posted by dejah420 at 10:44 AM on August 3, 2014




This from 31 July 2014...
"Lack of theatre space sees two persons being operated on at a time in the same theatre, while others receive surgical interventions in the corridors.
Even beds are in such short supply that surgeons are forced to undertake complicated procedures while their patients lie on stretchers on the floor.
There is nowhere to send the patients post-operatively, with Shifa ICU full, and no vacant beds in surgical wards. Some surgical cases have been sent to maternity and internal medicine hospitals, and to other hospitals outside Shifa medical complex."
More here

posted by Mister Bijou at 10:54 AM on August 3, 2014


Zionism and Its Discontents - Zionism and Israel’s War with Hamas in Gaza
By ROGER COHEN
What I cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians like Salam Fayyad in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children.
You learn a lot very quickly in Gaza…
Most of all, you learn that conflict in Gaza is fundamentally different – more intense, more soul-destroying and more perilous for ordinary people – than just about anywhere else in the world.

Why is that? First and foremost because Gaza serves as Exhibit A for the dictum that you can run, but you can’t hide. In other wars I have covered, civilians who find themselves in the path of battle simply take what they can and move. They walk to safety, travelling as far as they need to go.
How Israel should disengage - again - from Gaza - Neither Israel nor Hamas have the means or the will to achieve total military victory. The only longer-term deal must be Gaza's economic rehabilitation in exchange for its demilitarization.

List of Palestinian ceasefire demands from #Cairo. Unclear if they are pre-conditions. #Gaza pic.twitter.com/FNH9Mmcv3i

UN chief Ban Ki-moon condemns shelling of Gaza school as 'criminal act' - Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon demands those responsible for the 'gross violation of international humanitarian law' be held accountable.

@mollycrabapple: Sometimes think twitter is the first time Americans really saw a ground view of what happens when the bombs they pay for hit a city
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:30 AM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Moshe Feiglin is the deputy speaker of the Israeli Knesset, and a member of Netanyahu's Likud party. Guess what? He has a plan for Gaza which he's posted on his Facebook page.

Is anyone surprised that the plan involves ethnically cleansing the entire area? He suggests turning Gaza into Jaffa, with a tiny minority of Arabs who sign loyalty oaths to the state. Some choice bits:

What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.

There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.

The IDF will designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined.

The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected.


On his Facebook a lot of Israelis are arguing with him that his plan is far too kind because he suggests economic assistance for the refugees he plans to create, and because the minority he does allow to stay will become enemies of the state eventually. Many of his Facebook fans suggest that this sort of outlook is exactly why he can surpass Bibi and become the next PM. Facebook offers translations that are OK, or you can read this article on EI which suggests Feiglin is guilty of violating a treaty on Genocide.
posted by cell divide at 12:34 PM on August 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.

This is beyond parody. I retract what I said before about not comparing the Israeli government to Hitler.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:08 PM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Before I flipped out and ragequit my most recent job, I was working for people who had me help them host events that brought people like Moshe Feiglin to speak in Toronto. The last straw a freakout from them about printed material for a $10,000+/table gala where some of the speakers were Laureen Harper (yes, that Harper), and a woman who has sued to have the Al Aqsa Mosque turned over to Jewish religious authorities so it can be razed to make way for a Third Temple.

Lately, I'm just feeling like vomiting every time I think of it. I'm ashamed I didn't quit back when my boss told me he thinks every Muslim in Canada should be deported or killed. Obviously, they thought the same about Gaza, and of course "Judea and Samaria". Also lately, my Facebook feed is being filled up with sincere expressions that "there are no innocents in Gaza" and whatnot. At least in Toronto, genocidal hatred among the Jewish and Christian right is impossible to miss unless you are willfully blind.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 1:10 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


When the fighting will end, Israeli law will be extended to cover the entire Gaza Strip, the people evicted from the Gush Katif will be invited to return to their settlements, and the city of Gaza and its suburbs will be rebuilt as true Israeli touristic and commercial cities.

This is so fucking insane to read written by the fucking current Knesset Deputy Speaker and Prime Minister hopeful. What the everloving actual fucking *fuck*? The rest of the world cannot possibly sit by and watch this happen in slow motion. The US Congress and Obama are writing the checks to fund the genocide of powerless, trapped people.
posted by crayz at 1:11 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


. They are morally responsible for the others, because this is their war; one that Israel neither wants nor can end.

What, the phone Bibi uses to give out orders stopped working? Israel could stop shooting this moment and still shoot down any missile shot its way.

The fact is Israel has lost this war. Gaza's gonna get rebuilt and opened up. Hamas' aims will have been met and Israel's won't. All this extra bombing and ground operations are just Israel working its way through the denial.

Israel is very anxious to portray its bombing and ground exercises as something it had no choice in doing. It had a choice. It could have sat behind its wall and shot down every rocket. The world would have rightly condemned Hamas for its refusal to stop shooting. Instead, Israel is the one that won't stop shooting and its ability to do damage is orders of magnitude higher than Israel's. Literally Israel claimed the it was breaking the last ceasefire because its soldier was kidnapped. It was not factual. Hundreds died.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:17 PM on August 3, 2014 [7 favorites]


The fact is Israel has lost this war. Gaza's gonna get rebuilt and opened up.

Morally? Sure they lost it, no question. In real terms--the terms of war; killing and subjugating people and destroying infrastructure--they have not by any stretch of the imagination 'lost' this war. Claiming that Gaza will be rebuilt and opened up seems a bit farfetched given what the actual leadership of the actual Israeli government has been saying, I think.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:25 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yes, crayz, Moshe Feiglin is explicitly calling for genocide and ethnic cleansing in Gaza and the West Bank. He said as much when he came and spoke in Toronto back in early May, but it was a lot easier to ignore back then.

He talks about "humanitarian resettlement" for Palestinians who want to leave, and he talks about granting "permanent residency" to Palestinians who sign loyalty oaths. This is after, of course, the IDF has "pacified" the Palestinian population. He's also one of those nutjobs who wants to bulldoze the Al Aqsa Mosque to make way for a third temple. In fact, he can't shut up about it.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 1:25 PM on August 3, 2014


which suggests Feiglin is guilty of violating a treaty on Genocide.

Sadly, Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's foreign minister, seems to have violated the treaty as well:

Israel’s Racist in Chief
Israel has changed. And the racist virus spread by Kahane, whose thugs were charged with the murders and beatings of dozens of unarmed Palestinians and whose members held rallies in Jerusalem where they chanted “Death to Arabs!” has returned to Israel in the figure of Israel’s powerful new foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman. Lieberman openly calls for an araberrein Israel—an Israel free of Arabs.

Lieberman, a former nightclub bouncer who was a member of the Kach Party (labeled by the United States, Canada and the European Union as a terrorist organization), has the personal and political habits of the Islamic goons he opposes. He was found guilty in 2001 of beating a 12-year-old boy and fined by an Israeli court.

There has been a steady decline from the days of the socialist Labor Party, which founded Israel in 1948 and held within its ranks many leaders, such as Yitzhak Rabin, who were serious about peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians. The moral squalor of Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu and Lieberman reflects the country’s degeneration. Labor, like Israel, is a shell of its old self. Lieberman’s Yisrael Beiteinu Party, with 15 seats in the Knesset, is likely to bring down the Netanyahu government the moment his power base is robust enough to move him into the prime minister’s office. He is the new face of the Jewish state. 
...

Lieberman, as did his mentor Kahane, calls for the eradication of Palestinians from Israel and the territories it occupies. ...
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:43 PM on August 3, 2014




There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.

I agree with this whole-heartedly.

Now, hold free and fair elections where everyone gets a vote. EVERYONE.

One Nation. With Liberty and Justice FOR ALL.
posted by mikelieman at 3:07 PM on August 3, 2014


Oh, and the Right of Return law is extended to everyone, regardless of religion or ethnicity, right?
posted by mikelieman at 3:08 PM on August 3, 2014


Are the everyone gets a vote elections only for Israel and the Palestinians? Because everybody voted in Ukraine and Egypt and Metafilter sure didn't seem on the side of those governments when people overthrew those results.
posted by Justinian at 3:23 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


HRW Q&A: 2014 Hostilities between Israel and Hamas
The following questions and answers address issues relating to international humanitarian law (the laws of war) governing the conflict between Israel and Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza that began on July 7, 2014.
Despite police ban, hundreds of anti-war demonstrators march in Tel Aviv
Those 500 people who marched through Tel Aviv last night had more energy than the 5,000 who stood in Rabin Square last week, not to mention much better interactions with their surroundings. And for the first time in three weeks, the people around me ended their Saturday nights with a bit of positivity.
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:32 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]




Metafilter sure didn't seem on the side of those governments when people overthrew those results.
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
They elect.

They have a revolution.

It's their choice.

Everyone knows I'm offended by the whole, "We're going to pretend that Hamas is a legitimate sovereign entity for purposes of calling ethnic cleansing of 1.8 million not-Hamas people a 'defensive war'"

Which is so full of shit, I can't even... But when the Israeli Gov't gives them ( 1.8 million not-Hamas people ) a vote in their government, than I can respect that.
posted by mikelieman at 3:41 PM on August 3, 2014




They elect.

They have a revolution.

It's their choice.


That's not how democracy is supposed to work.
posted by Justinian at 4:03 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's also hypocritical and makes no sense. You're saying if Israel allowed everyone to vote but the current power structure didn't like the results you'd be cool with them having a revolution and going back to what they have now? Somehow I think not.
posted by Justinian at 4:05 PM on August 3, 2014




Israel could stop shooting this moment and still shoot down any missile shot its way.

Ironmouth, I don't know if you saw the links I posted earlier featuring Theodore Postol, but it is very unlikely that Israel could shoot down any significant number of projectiles fired from Gaza (at least with Iron Dome). He estimates the success rate of the system at 5%, likely lower.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:33 PM on August 3, 2014


These are IDF numbers from a while ago:
The operation is ongoing, and since the start of the operation over 1000 rockets have been launched at Israel. Of those, 754 have hit Israel and approximately 201 were intercepted by the Iron Dome ...
But how many rockets are shot down by Iron Dome is not very relavent to Ironmouth's point, it seems to me. The fact is only three people have been killed after 3000 or so rocket strikes, and I believe at least two of the three were killed by short-range mortars. Automobiles are more dangerous than Gaza rockets in Israel. Israel has a choice in how it responds and would have a lot of sympathy if it had limited its response to tunnels and other targets at safe distances from civilians. What it is doing instead is bat-shit insane.
posted by Golden Eternity at 5:03 PM on August 3, 2014


Does this war make me look fat?

One Israelis valiant struggle with binge eating during the recent hostilities.
posted by chaz at 5:04 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Can someone explain to me what the heck kind of paper the Times of Israel is?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:25 PM on August 3, 2014




Can someone explain to me what the heck kind of paper the Times of Israel is?

It's hard to classify. It's not what I would call a great paper, even by small-country standards. I think its editorials used to be right wingish, but now it has a wider range of columnists (some of whom are quite good). It has its own reporters and produces primary coverage of events, so I think it's worth paying attention to it if you want to know what's going on in Israel.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:08 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Christian Science Monitor, 1989: South Africa Shouldn't Be Singled Out
posted by anemone of the state at 6:09 PM on August 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


And following on from that, here's the TOI's coverage of a couple of a few developments:
Saudi king condemns Gaza war — but not Israel

She's going to be in so much trouble. Finnish TV: Rockets from Gaza hospital

And a well-balanced editorial from the TOI's founding editor, David Horowitz: An unavoidable war, unfinished

Not from TOI, but very interesting: [Opposition leader Isaac] Herzog pushing Netanyahu to take diplomatic steps on Gaza
[...] “Now that the troops have withdrawn, the prime minister must show diplomatic courage,” Herzog said. “There is a one-time diplomatic opportunity.

The prime minister must show courage. If he does, of course he will receive a safety net [from Labor].”

Herzog stopped short of saying that he would consider having his party enter Netanyahu’s coalition.
I think the implication is that he is offering to enter Netanyahu's coalition, which would probably be good for both the parties and the State of Israel. Another interesting story, particularly given the report on Saudi Arabia above:
[...] At his press conference Saturday night, Netanyahu said one of Israel’s achievements in Operation Protective Edge was the support of moderate elements in the region, which he said would surprise many, and which would be expanded after the campaign ends.

Though he did not mention any countries by name, this is believed to be in reference to cooperation with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan – all of which have an interest, as does Israel, in dealing a severe blow to Hamas.

Netanyahu said this regional cooperation is a “very important asset” for Israel.
Only John Kerry could bring nations together like this.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:29 PM on August 3, 2014


Joe in Australia, the article on Newrepublic by Birnbaum and and Tibon (regarding John Kerry's failed diplomatic attempts in 2013) hinted as such as well, where Netanyahu publicly implied he was prepared to dump the Jewish Home Party - the most right wing party in his coalition - and replace them with Labour, which is center left. Which would definitely moderate the stance the government takes on Palestine.

Right now most of what drives Netanyahu's policy on Palestine has to be his fear of appearing "too soft" on Palestine and thus losing the support of the far right Jewish Home Party, the loss of those seats would leave his coalition with not enough seats to hold government.

Democracy in action I guess. If the majority of citizens are in support of the current Israeli military actions, then the system is working as intended? It's even mentioned further up the thread that there's unanimous US Senate support for Israeli war actions and funding for Israeli military hardware - so aren't the senators carrying out the will of their electorates too?
posted by xdvesper at 6:49 PM on August 3, 2014




It's true that Israel enjoys far more widespread support in the USA than this thread would indicate but it's also true that senators are not supposed to simply slavishly parrot the uninformed and often self-destructive wishes of their constituents.
posted by Justinian at 7:05 PM on August 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


What I don't get is why so much attention is focused on the civilian deaths in Gaza while virtually none is being paid to the civilians killed by the government of Ukraine despite the numbers being roughly comparable.

I think this is a fair point. The point seems to be that lefties who aren't pro-Israel are obsessed with Israel and should pay more heed to other issues and that ignoring Egypt and Ukraine is a symptom of the obsession. But then, looking at this the other way round, why all the specific and obsessive demonstrations of support for Israel and only Israel's right to defend itself forcefully against terrorism? Why aren't the strong pro-Israeli folks talking more about other governments' rights to combat terrorism against insurgents? Like the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka slaughtered by government forces or FARC versus the US-supported (paramilitaristic) government forces in Colombia (which have displaced 4 million Colombians and extrajudicially killed hundreds of union members and left-wingers). What about the Russians and the Chechens? If Israel feels justified in its behavior and we support them, then why not be more vocally supportive of others? (Of course these aren't perfect analogies, but I think these governments feel/felt just as strongly as the Israelis that the insurgents were willing to attack not just government forces but civilian populations. Were their actions defensible?)
posted by faux ami at 7:26 PM on August 3, 2014


Congress hasn't parroted their voters in years. Congress votes the way the money wants them to vote. American citizens don't drive policy, we haven't since the success of the civil rights era. Look how long it took for apartheid protests to gain ground legislatively. Or see the difference the Occupy movement made in politics...which is to say, none.

And Israel May have a lot of support among the evangelicals who believe the Jews need to be there, to be killed, so the coming of The Lord will happen, but I guarangawdamntee you, that there is a much bigger streak of anti semitism in this country than you think there is. People who see the Torah in my house look at it the same way they look at the Quran, with discomfort and dismay. "Jew down the price", is not an uncommon phrase.

It won't take much to stir up the same hatred toward Israel that the powers that be use against "terrorists". All it will take is for Israel to bomb a Christian temple like they bombed all the mosques. Which is why the IDF leaves Bethlehem alone, for the most part.
posted by dejah420 at 7:44 PM on August 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


NYT infographic with before-and-after satellite images of Gaza, damage maps
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:56 PM on August 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think this is a fair point.

I've thought about it for a day or two and I have come to a depressing conclusion. One big reason so much more attention is being paid to Gaza is that it's a small area located in a geographically convenient location for reporters. So it's easier and cheaper (though dangerous, don't get me wrong!) to send a reporter to hang out in Gaza City. You know he or she will get killer footage (literally) without having to move around very much. Ukraine, on the other hand, is a very big place. The east is remote, geographically isolated from other populated areas, and you have no idea if your reporters will see anything worth covering for days at a time.

I'm not sure "cheaper to cover and easier to get exciting footage" should be an important factor in whether the news media cares about dead civilians but I think it is the case.

So, civilians, if you're going to get brutalized and killed try to do it in a place which is conveniently located for the Western press. Otherwise nobody will give two shits about you. K thx.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on August 3, 2014


Democracy in action I guess. If the majority of citizens are in support of the current Israeli military actions, then the system is working as intended? It's even mentioned further up the thread that there's unanimous US Senate support for Israeli war actions and funding for Israeli military hardware - so aren't the senators carrying out the will of their electorates too?

According to this US poll 42% think Israel's actions are justified, 39% unjustified, 20% no opinion. Not quite unanimous. The Vietnam war might have had better numbers at its beginning. Also, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordon are even less democratic than the US, and Israel's actions in Gaza might not poll as well there. Above I linked to a statement from the Egyptian government stating unequivocally that the IDF had directly targeted civilians. I'm not sure they are as thrilled with Israel as it may seem.

Regarding civilian deaths globally, it is sub-Saharan Africa where atrocities are most neglected. Ukraine is a bad analogy. Ukraine has not destroyed 25% (and growing) of the homes in E. Ukraine and has not directly punished civilian populations for supporting Russia, and are not cheering and singing songs about killing children. There have been incidents where Ukraine has fired into civilian areas and denied it, though. And there was at least one case involving a hospital. I certainly would not defend them for it, unless there was an imminent and serious, real threat involving "human shields" - soldiers about to be killed.

A much better analogy which we are ignoring is Syria. Assad truly is acting like Bibi and punishing entire civilian populations for supporting resistance, sometimes even dropping barrel bombs on densely populated neighborhoods. And many more people are suffering in Syria, though Gaza's population is not exactly small. Maliki is also taking after the IDF and bombing civilian populations. However, Assad and Maliki, and Ukraine, are under a far more real threat than Bibi is. Also, I think USians tend to see Israel differently than Assad. They see Assad as a monster and Israel as a familiar friend, and are shocked that Israel is killing so many people and destroying homes needlessly and showing no empathy for the victims and actually blaming the victims. And shocked at the racism. I had no idea it was this bad until now.

I'm all for Bibi dropping the brown shirts and forming a coalition with labor.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:16 PM on August 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


Golden Eternity wrote: Israel has a choice in how it responds and would have a lot of sympathy if it had limited its response to tunnels and other targets at safe distances from civilians.

Firing at the tunnels turns out to be pretty useless: they're many meters down (up to 20? 40?) and even if Israel knew exactly where they were (it doesn't) the force needed to reach them and the repeated strikes necessary to destroy them along their length would cause vastly more destruction. Remember, Israel's existing buffer zone means that the tunnels are already at least half a mile long.

As for firing at targets that are "a safe distance from civilians", what that means is "Hamas should be allowed to fire rockets whenever it wants, as long as it does so in a built-up area." This is not good policy, but that was Israel's policy between wars. Hamas got used to the idea that it could fire a dozen rockets or so without more than a token response. You might say, well, Hamas' attacks were only a token attacks. The problem is that (a) you really can't tolerate even "token" attacks; (b) even the low-class rockets cause fear, damage, and occasionally fatalities; and (c) the sophistication and power of the rockets grows every year. Also, the techniques Israel uses for preventing rocket casualties - the so-called Iron Dome - is incredibly expensive, and (because it's so expensive) is only deployed to protect "built-up" areas. The Israeli civilian casualties from the war were people who lived outside the areas of its protection, but that won't always be the case: a successful interception results in shrapnel falling to earth, so Iron Dome interceptions over populated areas can potentially cause fatalities of their own.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:21 PM on August 3, 2014


Sadly, I agree there are plenty of places where many civilians are getting murdered. I only pointed at Ukraine because it was in the news so much lately with the plane being shot down and so on.
posted by Justinian at 8:23 PM on August 3, 2014


My theory about news coverage: it is directly proportionate to the quality of hotels, and inversely proportional to the time taken to get a good photo.

In this case there are nice hotels in both Israel and Gaza, and Gaza is small enough that you can just take a photograph from the pool area. Hence: lots of coverage. Sudan has no nice hotels anywhere near the conflict, hence no coverage. Ukraine has some nice hotels, but the conflict is scattered (Ukraine is huge) and so it's hard to get good photos. Coverage is mediocre.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:28 PM on August 3, 2014


Based on the numbers it seems that the alarms and shelters are doing a lot to protect civilians in Israel in addition to Iron Dome, but I haven't even seen much in the news about property damage from the rockets. Most of the rockets must end up hitting unpopulated areas. There is always a chance one could land in a very bad spot I guess. The biggest threat is Hamas gets better rockets with more devastating warheads.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:35 PM on August 3, 2014


I wrote: Hamas is directly responsible for many of these deaths

roomthreeseventeen wrote: That's just incredibly untrue. Blaming the victims?

feckless fecal fear mongering wrote: WRONG, Joe.
Israel is directly and morally responsible for the deaths in Palestine, because the Israeli government caused them.


Here's a sort of hierarchy of Hamas responsibility for deaths in Gaza. I think most people would agree that Hamas is responsible for at least cases 1-5, probably 6, and would say "it depends" for the 7th. I'd say that Hamas is directly responsible for cases 1-4.

1) People executed by Hamas - at least tens of Gazans have been killed this way, according to NGOs and Palestinian sources;
2) People deliberately or recklessly killed by Hamas, but not executed - Hamas' weapon of choice against the IDF forces has apparently been RPGs, which can be lethal to bystanders or people in nearby buildings;
3) People killed by Hamas rockets that land in Gaza - more than a thousand of Hamas' rockets have landed in Gaza itself;
4) People killed by premature explosions - NGO and media reports from before the war showed that this was a frequent occurrence;
5) People killed by unexploded ordnance - not all of the faulty rockets explode on impact, and deaths from this were reported by NGOs before the war;
6) People killed by secondary explosions when Israel attacks a Hamas site - there are lots of videos of these explosions;
7) People killed by an Israeli attack on a Hamas site;
8) People killed by an Israeli attack on what it believes to be a Hamas site;
9) People killed by a misdirected Israeli attack.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:48 PM on August 3, 2014


So, civilians, if you're going to get brutalized and killed try to do it in a place which is conveniently located for the Western press. Otherwise nobody will give two shits about you. K thx.

You know, I don't know if there were as many reporters in Gaza during the previous recent conflicts. Granted, the death toll is higher this time, the fighting has been more prolonged and there's always skullduggery at the border letting people pass through and such -- so those are all reasons why there could be more reporters there this time. Although, if someone has numbers about comparative numbers of reporters / media time / whatever in Gaza now vs previous flare-ups, feel free to correct me.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:55 PM on August 3, 2014


Gaza school attacked as children queue for sweets
The Israeli army said it had targeted three members of Islamic Jihad on a motorbike near the school - contradicting witnesses who said they saw no vehicles - but was investigating the effects of the attack.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:38 PM on August 3, 2014


What I don't get is why so much attention is focused on the civilian deaths in Gaza while virtually none is being paid to the civilians killed by the government of Ukraine despite the numbers being roughly comparable.

that's because Ukraine is fighting off a foreign invasion. the plans for this were cooked up years ago by the Russian General Staff. Its a real invasion, with the help of a few locals.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:19 PM on August 3, 2014


The Israeli army said it had targeted three members of Islamic Jihad on a motorbike near the school

Instead of employing a Hellfire missile fired from a drone, in the good old days someone would have remotely detonated a bomb sitting in a car parked on the street to achieve that same end.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:56 PM on August 3, 2014






972: PHOTOS: 10,000 march on White House to protest Gaza offensive (although estimates vary from that number, usually upwards -- the organizers say 50,000)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:45 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Paul Mason: Gaza is not as I expected. Amid the terror, there is hope
I have been reporting from Gaza all week, and, amid the stream of dead and injured civilians wheeled on trolleys before me, frantic people gesturing in my face, and nights spent in an unlit city under bombardment, I've come to a conclusion I did not expect: Gaza "works".
posted by Grangousier at 2:09 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Can someone explain to me what the heck kind of paper the Times of Israel is?

A lot of it is a blogging platform with no editorial oversight. Pretty much any idiot with a computer can post there. Despite its name there are plenty of non-Israelis who post, including the Long Island dipshit who wrote that pro-genocide article the other day.
posted by lullaby at 2:52 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


That's not how democracy is supposed to work.

Democracies are only one form of government in which the government promotes the general welfare and ensures domestic tranquillity through due process of law and equal protection of the law.

The point is, when the people who are being held hostage by Hamas are treated as victims as opposed to an army, and have a chance to participate in the reformation of the government to ensure their best interests in their opinion, then we won't have this conflict.

Now, I *PREFER* democracies because -- as we say in the ticketing system -- WORKSFORME. But the point is that The People who are being held hostage have been abandoned by the Israeli government.

Why don't we just all agree that (1) Hamas isn't a government, and (2) The Israeli Government needs to be reformed from the ground up. The current incarnation abandoned 2 million people to the mercy of criminal gangs. No government with that legacy can ever go forward representing everyone.

How about a Truth and Reconciliation committee leading to a Constitutional Convention?
posted by mikelieman at 4:12 AM on August 4, 2014


people who are being held hostage by Hamas

American and Israeli spin.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:43 AM on August 4, 2014


So, if you're saying that the 1.8 million people abandoned in Gaza by the Israeli government and are all fully paid up members of Hamas? "Well that certainly justifies killing them all, doesn't it?" he opined sarcastically.
posted by mikelieman at 5:31 AM on August 4, 2014


A pro-Israel friend of mine sent me this article, which he seems to agree with. It strikes me as particularly vile.
posted by jbickers at 5:38 AM on August 4, 2014


Ugh, Dennis Miller. Complete shit stain.
I had three coworkers whose conversations were a constant loop of this crap.
Such utter bullshit. It was like working at a Klan rally. I was really happy when they got fired.
posted by Pudhoho at 6:05 AM on August 4, 2014


Joe in Australia, even if one were to accept your premise (I don't), it still elides a pretty glaring fact: the Israeli government is responsible for the better part of about 1800 deaths (mainly civilians), and 10 000 injuries (ditto).

By comparison, Hamas may be responsible for what, a couple hundred? I'm not really sure what else to say about that.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:26 AM on August 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


His worst case? “An 8 year-old boy who basically lost half of his face including one eye and lost the other eye with shrapnel in. What I needed to do is reconstruct the face just to cover the wounds.

“The eyes are lost. He lost all his family, his ability to care for himself has been completely destroyed. There is no future for him, he keeps asking why they have turned the lights off.”

The Guardian
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:29 AM on August 4, 2014 [3 favorites]




Elie Wiesel plays the Holocaust trump card in Gaza
Just when you thought it couldn’t get worse, it does. I’m not thinking about the actual war in Gaza – that’s bad enough.

It’s the Jewish civil war over Israel, a civil war that includes both sides appealing to non-Jews and American foreign policy.
...

The question for Elie Wiesel and the Jewish establishment is not about Abraham’s binding of Isaac – a treasure trove for interpreters of all types – but how many Palestinians children in Gaza will be sacrificed on the altar of Israel’s national security.

If God stayed Abraham’s knife, who will stay Israel’s?
This is Netanyahu’s final status solution
The Gaza war should be seen as part of Israel’s overall strategy, which aims to maintain the current status quo in the Palestinian Territories.

One of the Israeli Right’s greatest political achievements was convincing the public that “we tried the Left’s ideas, and they failed.” Some even say that the current reality is the outcome of “the left’s ideas.”
Daniel Levy: 'No just war'
Is it impossible in no circumstances to avoid civilian casualties? I think the answer is no. But is it possible to avoid almost a thousand civilian casualties? And there the answer is almost certainly yes. And I think the constant Israeli propaganda - and I think one has to call it propaganda - that suggests that we are doing everything to avoid civilian casualties just has to be called the boldfaced lied that it is.
...
If the US were willing to use its leverage, not only could this conflict immediately be brought to an end, but the broader conflict would also be addressed. But recognizing American political realities, that would not happen. So within the realm of the possible, much clearer messages should be sent to the Israelis.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:08 AM on August 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Some polling of American attitudes toward this conflict, from a week or so ago. If you scroll down to the breakdown by age, it's quite a dramatic difference.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:16 AM on August 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


That "Dennis Miller" piece was actually written by Larry Miller (as satire) in 2002.

Plus that Jewsnews site is a scary, scary blight. Go to the main page and read the headlines. Orwellian much?
posted by Trochanter at 8:39 AM on August 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Sorry, I've got to take that back. Larry Miller's piece wasn't satire. He meant it back then.
posted by Trochanter at 9:02 AM on August 4, 2014


Human Rights Watch: Human Rights Watch investigated several incidents between July 23 and 25 when, local residents said, Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a, but no Palestinian fighters were present at the time and no firefights were taking place.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:41 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]




Sorry, I've got to take that back. Larry Miller's piece wasn't satire. He meant it back then.

It's good to second guess it. It's amazing how much creepy, misleading, fabricated anti-Semitic garbage is out there. I recently came across an apparently entirely fabricated Ben Gurion quote from the 1937 letter to his son which I almost posted here. I recommend reading the real version (PDF). It's hard to believe Gurion would support what is happening now, especially considering Israel's current strength.

Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a

Another war crime. I wonder how many are going unreported?

@lisang: Tonight, 9 B'Av, Jews gather in Brooklyn to read the names of the Gaza/Israel dead & chant mourner's kaddish. facebook.com/events/1457360…
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:00 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


This video, uploaded by IDF soldiers, shows the deliberate targeting of a mosque. As a rule, the Geneva Convetions prohibit this sort of thing...ya know, unless you're Israeli, in which case, knock yourself out, because who the hell is going to stop you?

Translation of what they are saying:
Khirbat Khuzaa, 30 July 2014, Operation Tzuk Eitan.

We’re waiting for the explosion of something like eleven tons of explosive above – and below – the ground.

This explosion is dedicated to the memory of the three people from the battalion who have fallen since the beginning of the operation – Amit Yeori of blessed memory, Guy Boylend of blessed memory, and Moshiko Dvino, of blessed memory.

The battalion has been fighting in the operation since it started, under task force 84 – a Givati brigade task force.

In the front you can see the mosque, where there is a shaft of a significant tunnel, which will also be part of the overall explosion that will be audible in a few seconds – throughout the village.

In these moments the commander of the battalion is giving the commands over the communication network of the brigade, the network of the battalion, and in a few seconds an explosion will be heard.

[1:26 - a victory shout is heard, with cheers and applause]
This mosque was in Khuzaa, an area where the bodies of the killed have still not been able to be recovered because of sniper and tank fire.

Some interesting stats from the UN and the WHO
  • The United Nations said every hour 1 innocent child is being killed in fighting.
  • 21% of the casualties are children with over 400 youngsters losing their lives.
  • Around 9,200 people have been wounded during the Middle East conflict.
  • There are over 250,000 people displaced in Gaza.
  • Of that quarter of a million, around 204,000 people are in 82 schools serving as UN shelters.
  • That is the equivalent of 10% of Gaza's entire population.
  • Around 5,750 homes in Gaza have been destroyed.
  • 23 medical facilities across the Gaza Strip have been destroyed to the point of being out of use.
  • The World Health Organization said the stock levels of essential drugs in Gaza is at zero.
  • Over 70% of the population in Gaza requires and needs food assistance.
  • The size of the Gaza Strip is 139 square miles which is far less than London (607 square miles) but around the same size as Las Vegas (136 square miles). However, Gaza has 10 times the population density of Washington DC.
  • Israel is the second biggest beneficiary of US military assistance - behind Afghanistan - receiving $3.1 billion (£1.84bn) in 2012.
This boy, he is called Abdul Rahman. He is sitting outside what used to be his house, near the mosque the IDF so gleefully exploded using American supplied munitions. He lost 18 members of his family.

There are stages of grief, outlined by Elizabeth Kulber-Ross, but I can't figure out where wandering about like Lady Macbeth, trying to wash the blood off my hands fits in.
posted by dejah420 at 10:12 AM on August 4, 2014 [7 favorites]


It is interesting, I think, that today is the 70th anniversary of Anne Frank's family being taken to the Reich Security Head Office headquarters.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:21 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


MICHAEL BEN-ARI, ISRAELI POLITICIAN (SUBTITLED TRANSL.): Mohammed is dead. The most moral thing to do is to flatten Gaza into a parking lot. Inside Israel's Pro-War Nationalist Camp
posted by dejah420 at 10:24 AM on August 4, 2014


Most moral.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:25 AM on August 4, 2014


That "Dennis Miller" piece was actually written by Larry Miller (as satire) in 2002.

Sorry, I've got to take that back. Larry Miller's piece wasn't satire. He meant it back then.


Dennis Miller, Larry Miller and Frank Miller all lost their minds after 9/11.
posted by homunculus at 10:49 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


This video, uploaded by IDF soldiers, shows the deliberate targeting of a mosque.

What kind of mindless idiots are running this thing? Blowing up a mosque? That's guaranteeing no peace. What the actual hell.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:52 AM on August 4, 2014


What kind of mindless idiots are running this thing?

They're not mindless idiots. This is what ethnic cleansing looks like. First you put them in a Ghetto. Then you flatten the Ghetto. Remember that old Russian saying, "If there's a man who is causing you problems, no man, no problems... "

Sadly, if they keep the status-quo going, I figure within a decade 'palestinian' is a historical footnote.

I'm sick and tired of those fucking savages in the Israeli government making the rest of us Jews look bad, and putting us who live in the Diaspora in greater danger. I really wish they'd take the Mogen David off the flag. I have some suggestions for a replacement, but I'll keep those to my own confidence, tyvm.
posted by mikelieman at 11:00 AM on August 4, 2014 [5 favorites]


I´m not sure if this has been already linked
US Provides Israel the Weapons Used on Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 11:06 AM on August 4, 2014


Gaza's Bottle Rockets -Why Hamas' Arsenal Wasn't Worth a War
Most of Hamas’ rockets are incapable of inflicting mass civilian casualties, flattening apartment blocks, or causing conflagrations in Israel. The nature of the arsenal makes Israel’s military operation entirely counterproductive.
A 'targeted assassination' of international law
Since the Second Lebanon War of 2006, the Israel Defense Forces has adopted an extremely problematic combat doctrine for conflicts that take place in urban areas with dense civilian populations, and in which the enemy is seen as an illegitimate terrorist entity (Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza). This combat doctrine is supported by a legal theory developed by the IDF’s international legal division, which interprets the laws of war in a manner that is shockingly different from their accepted interpretation by experts in the field worldwide. Its direct result is massive civilian casualties and the destruction of civilian neighborhoods.

This combat doctrine consists of two elements, each of which is a declaration of war against the fundamental principles of the laws of armed combat. The first element redefines what constitutes a legitimate target for attack, such that it now includes not only classic military targets (bases, combatants, weapons stockpiles and so forth), but also facilities and objects whose connection to the enemy organization is nonmilitary in nature. Under this innovative definition, the IDF’s target bank has expanded to include “symbols of the Hamas government” (offices, policemen, the parliament building), which were targeted during Operation Cast Lead in early 2009, and houses belonging to Hamas commanders and operatives, which have been targeted during the current Operation Protective Edge. Dozens and perhaps hundreds of civilians have been killed in assaults on such structures.

The second element is even more far-reaching: It holds that when fighting in urban areas, we are entitled to treat the entire area as a legitimate target and bombard it via air strikes or artillery shelling – as long as we first warn all the residents of our intention to do so and give them time to leave. The IDF first used this method in Beirut’s Dahiya neighborhood during the Second Lebanon War. Before bombing, the army dropped fliers telling the residents to leave. Then the bombs were dropped, and most of Dahiya’s houses were destroyed.
Level of devastation in Beit Hanoun appalling. This was the first time I could visit the area. Shocking #Gaza pic.twitter.com/PTHw5p3rQJ

An Israeli web poll asked what Obama should get for his birthday. 48 percent said "ebola." vox.com/e/5731246
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:42 AM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Human Rights Watch investigated several incidents between July 23 and 25 when, local residents said, Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a, but no Palestinian fighters were present at the time and no firefights were taking place.

I've been wondering if a lot of this sort of stuff -- because unless it's intentional ethnic cleansing, it seems almost too on the nose -- is not just the result of a massive conscript army of basically teenagers. The mystique of the IDF and their technical know-how and access to American weaponry may be hiding the fact that when you send teenage conscripts into a city with a poorly defined mission this is what you get. Or maybe I just don't want to believe that the IDF has become as callous and malicious as they appear.

An Israeli web poll asked what Obama should get for his birthday. 48 percent said "ebola." vox.com/e/5731246

The evidence that this is just an ethnic cleansing campaign driven by extremist Israeli politics seems mountainous.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:47 AM on August 4, 2014 [7 favorites]


If you're an American, now is a good time to make your senators aware of your disgust with their funding the Israeli war machine.
Especially the Democrats who campaign from the moral high ground - remind them that they can be replaced.
posted by Pudhoho at 11:55 AM on August 4, 2014




Israeli official: Cabinet ministers were updated that Israel accepts the Egyptian proposal for a 72 hours ceasefire starting 8am
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:26 PM on August 4, 2014




I have very little hope for this ceasefire. What's the over/under on how long it lasts? 4 hours?
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on August 4, 2014


I don't think Israel will violate Egypt's ceasefire as quickly as Obama's. My hopes are much higher.
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:34 PM on August 4, 2014


The Hamas guy on CNN is unwilling to say he doesn't believe the blood libel. I think they need a new Hamas guy. How hard is it to say that Jews don't put blood in matzo?

HAH they just played a clip of the dude calling the blood libel a fact! Burnnnn.
posted by Justinian at 2:37 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


justinian is this the same M'shal charlie rose interview?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:39 PM on August 4, 2014




Google Play store offers 'Bomb Gaza' mobile game
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:06 PM on August 4, 2014


No, this was a live interview with Wolf Blitzer.
posted by Justinian at 3:19 PM on August 4, 2014


It was Osama Hamdan. You can watch the spot here if you want.
posted by Justinian at 3:21 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]






Dejah420 wrote: This video, uploaded by IDF soldiers, shows the deliberate targeting of a mosque. As a rule, the Geneva Convetions prohibit this sort of thing...

They explicitly say that civilian buildings that are used for military purposes, like this one, are not protected. That video shows you the tunnel entrances in the mosque. It's only a religious building in the perverted mind of Hamas, which thinks killing Jews is a virtuous action.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:07 PM on August 4, 2014


Golden Eternity, many thanks for that link to the essay by Rabbi Michael Lerner
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:09 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's only a religious building in the perverted mind of Hamas, which thinks killing Jews is a virtuous action.

Joe in Australia, that's awfully presumptuous of you to assume you know how people thought of this mosque.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:15 PM on August 4, 2014 [11 favorites]


Greenwald: - Cash, Weapons and Surveillance: the U.S. is a Key Party to Every Israeli Attack.
posted by adamvasco at 4:24 PM on August 4, 2014


4 August 2014... Spain has just announced it is suspending arms sales to Israel. At the same time, the UK announces that starting last week it began reviewing arms export licenses to Israel.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:43 PM on August 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


It's only a religious building in the perverted mind of Hamas, which thinks killing Jews is a virtuous action.

I really think cranking the rhetoric up to this level is doing a disservice to the discussion. The rest of your post was perfectly fine, and it really didn't need this barb on there that just incites monkey-poo-flinging.

Like, this is already heartbreaking shit and a hard conversation. Maybe keep your shirt on and leave the "come at me bro!" at home?
posted by emptythought at 4:43 PM on August 4, 2014 [9 favorites]


roomthreeseventeen wrote: Joe in Australia, that's awfully presumptuous of you to assume you know how people thought of this mosque.

I don't know what you're suggesting. Do you mean that Moslems generally would be OK with a (building described as a) mosque being used to store weapons and act as an entrance for people planning a kidnapping? Because I don't think that's the case. Even if it were, though, Israel would have both the right and the duty to destroy it: these tunnels exist for the sole purpose of committing war crimes.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:49 PM on August 4, 2014


The rhetoric was over the top but he's correct that a tunnel entrance would make it incontrovertibly a legitimate military target. But where are we seeing a tunnel entrance? Maybe I'm watching the wrong video?
posted by Justinian at 4:49 PM on August 4, 2014


Yes, let's take it down a notch?

The HRW FAQ page page Golden Eternity linked to way up above said that, "the attacking party is not relieved from its obligation to take into account the risk to civilians, including the duty to avoid causing disproportionate harm to civilians, simply because it considers the defending party responsible for having located legitimate military targets within or near populated areas." That looked like a pretty big explosion and I sure hope there were not civilians in the area. Also, is it a war crime to use tunnels if the tunnels are used for military purposes, which then justify the artillery shelling shown in the video (genuine question)?

As a counterpoint, it's worth noting that HRW has documented potential unlawful actions committed by Israel during this war as well.
posted by faux ami at 5:00 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


I watched a longer version earlier that showed them actually going in to the tunnel. I think it was on this page, but it's not working for me now.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:01 PM on August 4, 2014


I really think cranking the rhetoric up to this level is doing a disservice to the discussion.

Seriously. Make more of an effort to be thoughtful about what you're saying in context. This isn't a topic that needs any extra help to get polarizing and go badly.
posted by cortex at 5:03 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Boy, very disappointing that Elie Wiesel can't come to the side of decency in this. But even ignoring that, his analogy seems blatantly absurd on its face:
“Jews rejected child sacrifice 3500 years ago. Now it’s Hamas’ turn.”
This is in reference to the Binding of Isaac, wherein God tells Abraham to sacrifice to him his own son Isaac. Abraham complies, but at the last minute God says "LOL just kiddin', put down the knife, LMFAO".

So Abraham (and, apparently in Wiesel's extending analogy, Jews in general) didn't "reject child sacrifice"; Abraham did precisely the opposite.
posted by Flunkie at 5:21 PM on August 4, 2014 [5 favorites]


I watched a longer version earlier that showed them actually going in to the tunnel.

That has zero to do with the fact that they destroyed a place of worship.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:27 PM on August 4, 2014


Neither of us knows whether it was actually a place of worship, but we can be pretty sure it was meant to allow Hamas to secretly enter Israel and kidnap or kill people. I think this may actually be the entrancetotje tunnel through which that soldier's comrades were attacked and killed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:36 PM on August 4, 2014


Joe in Australia: " I think this may actually be the entrancetotje tunnel through which that soldier's comrades were attacked and killed."

Well, the Israeli's initial story was that the soldiers were killed near Rafah, which is why they focused all the f16 firepower on Rafah. The mosque was here, Rafah can be seen about 2.5 miles to the west.

And that's assuming you believe the Israeli's when they say anything anymore. First the war was because 3 Israeli teens were kidnapped and murdered by Hamas, then...after almost a month of killing Palestinians, they said "Oh, yeah...so that thing we said? We made that shit up."

Then they broke the ceasefire because one of their soldiers had been "kidnapped" by Hamas, and another 200 Palestinians were murdered before they said "Oh, that thing we said about Hamas? Yeah, we made that shit up too. "

They've bombed 23 hospitals into dust, and continue to target shelters holding the 250,000 people who have had their homes destroyed, and every time all they say is "Erm...you know, terrorists. Don't talk about dead babies, what are you, an anti-Semite?"

So, forgive me if I fail to believe them when they say they blew up a holy site because there was a tunnel there.
posted by dejah420 at 5:50 PM on August 4, 2014 [8 favorites]


Neither of us knows whether it was actually a place of worship, but we can be pretty sure it was meant to allow Hamas to secretly enter Israel and kidnap or kill people. I think this may actually be the entrancetotje tunnel through which that soldier's comrades were attacked and killed.

What?! It would be just as, if not more reasonable, to say that we don't know if tunnels were underneath the mosque, but that it was/is used as a mosque and that if the IDF didn't take "all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize the loss of civilian life and damage to civilian objects" with "effective advance warning" then, rather than fulfilling a "duty" of the IDF, this may have been a criminal act. (And it most certainly will be enraging to many Palestinians and others, which has got to be counterproductive for the IDF and Israel down the road). This inference is predicated on assumptions that are nearly (though not quite) as reckless as those used upthread to argue that the beach bombing of Palestinian kids was due to a misfired Hamas rocket.
posted by faux ami at 6:31 PM on August 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Is the argument that there was no tunnel there or that the IDF shouldn't have blow it up even if there was a tunnel?
posted by Justinian at 6:44 PM on August 4, 2014


Is the argument that there was no tunnel there or that the IDF shouldn't have blow it up even if there was a tunnel?

Seemingly both, but both are kind of good points. You don't get to blow up a hospital just because there's a mortar on the roof, and you don't get to blow up a mosque just because there's maybe a tunnel underneath it.

Why should we even believe them that there was a tunnel there, either? i feel like the wolf has already been cried on that one more than once. It sure feels like "blow it up, come up with a vaguely plausible handwavium reason later" is their modus operandi.
posted by emptythought at 6:55 PM on August 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


Not sure, Justinian. I was just saying that the presumption that we "can be pretty sure" there was a tunnel there and that this wasn't a mosque seemed cavalier. If there was a tunnel, then I think it is likely a military target and, as long as the attack is proportionate and fulfills the other requirements listed above, then it could be legally destroyed. But it does seem, as dejah implied, that the IDF hasn't provided adequate justification per many international law experts for prior attacks on targets in civilian areas (on hospitals, ambulances, homes of people related to Hamas leadership and including the "roof knock" bombings), so not sure why we need to believe them on this without additional information?
posted by faux ami at 6:58 PM on August 4, 2014


Yeah, I have no idea about a tunnel since I didn't see the "full video" as Joe says exists. But clearly you can't put a tunnel in a mosque and expect to claim the building is sacrosanct. If it existed which we have no idea about.
posted by Justinian at 7:26 PM on August 4, 2014


Since when is a tunnel a weapon? It's imaginable it could just be going to a bomb shelter, which would be a very good thing to have in a mosque or school in Gaza. Doesn't Israel have to prove the Mosque is being used for a military purpose before killing people in it?
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:29 PM on August 4, 2014


Wait, maybe I'm confused. I assumed the mosque was empty and we were talking about blowing up an empty mosque with a tunnel in it. Was the mosque full of people?
posted by Justinian at 7:39 PM on August 4, 2014


Well, you see, even if it was a mosque, there would have been people in its general vicinity. And where there are people, there are children. And where there are children, there is Hamas. And where there is Hamas, there are UN-operated schools. So they really had no choice but to bomb it, you see.
posted by Flunkie at 7:41 PM on August 4, 2014


Faux ami, the IDF have been remarkably candid about their operations. In most cases you don't find out what has happened during a war until months or years afterwards. In this case, the IDF has an actual blog, with videos. Anyway, I think I found the videos I remembered: Hamas Uses Holy Places in Gaza as Terrorist Facilities.

Flunkie: You can see soldiers checking the place out in the video. It's empty, and you can't see any women or children around. So perhaps a little less sarcasm, and assuming that Israelis are wicked?

For Dejah420: a video of rockets being fired from within a cemetery.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:47 PM on August 4, 2014


Oh, please don't lecture me, Joe. It's not about one mosque; it's about the constant drumbeat of "We're completely blameless for the tragedy of us bombing random-thing-of-the-hour, we had absolutely no choice but to bomb random-thing-of-the-hour, by the way we didn't actually bomb random-thing-of-the-hour, that was a misfired Hamas rocket that did that, well, yeah, maybe it was us after all, but again, we can't be blamed for bombing things".
posted by Flunkie at 7:55 PM on August 4, 2014 [7 favorites]


Joe, candid video of operations does not make the operations legal or ethical. This mosque bombing comes in the wake of a number of Israeli operations that the UN and a number of human rights groups and international law experts claimed were illegal. So, I think there is some reasonable skepticism among some here that the IDF was doing this legally and that it was proportional to the threat (as Golden Eternity mentions, there has to be a reasonable argument that the tunnel exists and that it qualifies as a military target). I'm sure you can understand that. There are also tremendous ramifications to bombing a cultural symbol like a mosque. I think that's why you're seeing a lot of anger in the responses to your points here.
posted by faux ami at 8:09 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah we bombed a few shelters and schools and hospitals and many homes full of children, but look how empty this mosque was!
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:28 PM on August 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


Mod note: A couple comments removed; there's no race here, take the time to vet random sites you're linking stuff on please.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:23 PM on August 4, 2014


Notice the way that once a criminal gang holding the people trapped in a Ghetto hostage is transmogrified into an existential threat, ( to a discriminatory government. I hear they just put in segregated schools. Another offensive thing to me... ) killing children and destroying hospitals and mosques is A-OK!

But the essential fact remains, everyone who promotes Hamas and gives them the legitimacy of a sovereign government, is a Useful Idiot, for both Hamas AND the Israeli Government, providing aid and comfort to the enemy, AND facilitating the death of innocents.

Once EVERYONE starts treating this criminal gang like the outlaws they are, they'll see how much they've been providing aid and comfort to terrorist criminals, then maybe we can stop killing children.
posted by mikelieman at 10:35 PM on August 4, 2014


Don't Mess with the Diamond District (original link)
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:39 PM on August 4, 2014


Irony of history: the State of Israel tolerated, encouraged and supported Hamas for a good 15 years starting in the mid-1970s, with a view to promoting Hamas as a counterbalance to the nationalist/secular PLO.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:48 PM on August 4, 2014 [3 favorites]


I would suggest that by calling a gang of criminals an existential threat, the State of Israel is still encouraging and supporting the Hamas brand.
posted by mikelieman at 10:52 PM on August 4, 2014




I've just watched a documentary about the Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte. During WWII, he negotiated the release in the spring of 1945 of around 21,000 prisoners, including 1,615 Jews, from German concentration camps.

In 1948, Bernadotte was appointed the United Nation's first mediator in the Arab-Israeli conflict. He was assassinated four months later in September 1948 by an armed group of Zionist extremists, the Stern Gang, during an official visit to Jerusalem.

Nice.
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:19 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Very deplorable, but scarcely relevant to the present exchange. Would you like me to start listing atrocities that the current leaders of Hamas are responsible for? We'd be here all day.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:35 PM on August 4, 2014


In Gaza, there is no such thing as 'innocent civilians'
...why should Gaza's residents suffer? Well, they are to blame for this situation just like Germany's residents were to blame for electing Hitler ...
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:44 PM on August 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Doesn't Israel have to prove the Mosque is being used for a military purpose before killing people in it?

Nah, they just say it is and a hell of a lot of people seem to just take that at face value, not question it at all, and move on.

Another part of the problem is sort of like, news fatigue or care fatigue. They've bombed so many places that when someone tries to call out why they blew up a certain place, the response is basically "which one again?". It's a sort of paying with pennies, or burying info in 500 pages of irrelevant garbage approach. A wall of sound.

It gets really hard to call out any one specific instance when there's so many.



A question i don't really understand the logistics of or answer too though, is why aren't there UN peacekeeping forces at/around the border and a proper DMZ? Is it because Gaza isn't a proper UN member? Has this been vetoed by the US/Israel? It seems that if there motivation wasn't just ethnic cleansing here, then having a neutral third party observer who could go "yea, they launched that mortar from the roof of a school, that's against the law" would help the optics of the situation a lot, rather than it just coming off as "We're bombing places at complete random, and specifically picking homes and places of public gathering or hospitals or whatever to cause maximum turmoil and suffering". Because i mean, wouldn't you not want the brand of your nation and religion associated with that?

It's sort of like, the bratty kid who wants to get away with bullying doesn't want witnesses, so they can punch and say the other person started it. Whereas the honest kid is really hoping to get the other kid to misbehave in front of a teacher/parent so their innocence can be proven. It doesn't reflect well on you, individually or as a group, when you're actively avoiding oversight so no one can question your story.
posted by emptythought at 1:33 AM on August 5, 2014


A question i don't really understand the logistics of or answer too though, is why aren't there UN peacekeeping forces at/around the border and a proper DMZ?

Well, fundamentally because you need peace to have peacekeepers: the parties involved ask the UN to supply peacekeepers. That requires both a resolution of the UN Security Council and that there are nations willing to supply personnel. Countries don't usually like sending their people into dangerous situations, so supplying dangerous zones can be a bit difficult.

having a neutral third party observer who could go "yea, they launched that mortar from the roof of a school, that's against the law" would help the optics of the situation a lot

The IDF has lots of videos of this sort of thing, and there are a few taken by people on the ground in Gaza. The problem with the latter is that Hamas doesn't like people taking photos of its operations there: try finding any news photos of Hamas' fighters from the current war.

There is, oddly enough, a permanent UN presence in Gaza: UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Administration for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. Their position has, however, been severely compromised by the fact that (a) lots (about 90%?) of their staff actually work for Hamas; and (b) they have to work there and are too scared to cause trouble. On at least three occasions (by their own count, this war) their buildings were used to store Hamas' missiles; you really have to presume that this sort of double use goes on all the time. UNRWA didn't help its position by giving the missiles back to Hamas, either.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:29 AM on August 5, 2014


The IDF has lots of videos of this sort of thing,

IN THEORY, they have drone and satellite realtime video of everything each time they drop a bomb on it.

Otherwise, how would they know to target a bomb there?

Where are those gunsight videos, proving there are gangs of criminals setting up rockets?

Should be one for each bomb dropped or artillery shell fired. If not, how are they determining targets and effectiveness.

Now, if Palestine was a real country and member of the UN, they could make that an issue, I think.
posted by mikelieman at 3:11 AM on August 5, 2014


UNRWA didn't help its position by giving the missiles back to Hamas, either.

When the criminal gang wants their weapons back -- and the only civil authority with police and courts to protect you abandoned the place years ago, so there is no civil authority to either report the crime or protect you -- are YOU going to tell them "No"?

Or are you going to say, "YOU ARE THE DUKE OF GAZA, YOU'RE A-NUMBER-ONE!"?
posted by mikelieman at 3:14 AM on August 5, 2014


Israel isn't helping their position by refusing to end the criminal occupation of Gaza by Hamas.
posted by mikelieman at 3:14 AM on August 5, 2014




Carter's article is great. Thanks for posting that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:06 AM on August 5, 2014 [3 favorites]




YNet: In Gaza, there is no such thing as 'innocent civilians' (via Glenn Greenwald's twitter, as he points out these arguments have been made to defend Israel before)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:26 AM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


Trigger alert, that YNet article is extremely hateful.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:45 AM on August 5, 2014


Never ask me about peace again: My father’s brother, Ismail al-Ghoul, 60, was not a member of Hamas. His wife, Khadra, 62, was not a militant of Hamas. Their sons, Wael, 35, and Mohammed, 32, were not combatants for Hamas. Their daughters, Hanadi, 28, and Asmaa, 22, were not operatives for Hamas, nor were my cousin Wael’s children, Ismail, 11, Malak, 5, and baby Mustafa, only 24 days old, members of Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine or Fatah. Yet, they all died in the Israeli shelling that targeted their home at 6:20 a.m. on Sunday morning.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]




For Dejah420: a video of rockets being fired from within a cemetery.

Wow, a new low for Hamas - using people who are already dead as human shields!
posted by crayz at 7:32 AM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Jacobin: Stopping Israel

Al Akhbar: The evolution of Palestinian resistance (by As'ad AbuKhalil)

Common Dreams: Why Israel Lies (by Chris Hedges)

Democracy Now: Gaza Ceasefire: After 1800+ Dead, What Led Israel to Stop the Assault — and What Comes Next? (mostly an interview with Norman Finkelstein)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:26 AM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


Interesting WaPo article about how Israel's economic blockade of Gaza serves to boost Hamas' economic and political power, even as more Gazans report *not* supporting Hamas' religious agenda:

In 2006, Hamas’s popularity was widespread, nationally winning the support of nearly half (44.5 percent) of Palestinians in the parliamentary elections. Following this high point, polls...reveal a decline in support for Hamas in Gaza [which reached] a nadir of 24 percent in December 2007. Yet, as the full effects of Israel’s blockade of Gaza began to be felt, Hamas’s fortunes in the territory began to change. From early 2008 to 2010, its support gradually increased to roughly 40 percent. Soon after Israel’s partial easing of the blockade in 2010, Hamas’s support leveled off, typically ranging within five percentage points of 40 percent through 2013. In the most recent poll in June 2014, support for Hamas stood at 35 percent, still well above its support in late 2007.

Part of the reason, the thesis goes, is that Hamas supporters are benefiting from the blockade's effects, since Hamas tunnels are the main way economically valuable goods are getting into the country:

However, economic shortages linked to the blockade are also not being felt equally by all Gazans, as it strongly appears Hamas has been able to meet the needs of its own. For example, in 2012, the vast majority (71 percent) of Hamas supporters in Gaza said they were satisfied with the economic situation. By comparison, just 36 percent with no party affiliation and 30 percent who support Fatah said the same. In other words, instead of pressuring Hamas, a key effect of the blockade has been to make life more difficult for opponents of the movement. And those who wish to benefit economically are incentivized to remain tied to Hamas. It appears that the blockade has made some Gazans more dependent on Hamas ­– since Hamas is the only capable entity that can skillfully navigate the blockade through tunnels and other smuggling routes...

Hamas, which espouses an Islamic fundamentalist ideology merged with Palestinian nationalism, has seen its support increase despite a significant decline in the percentage of Gazans who support giving religious leaders greater say in the political process. In 2006, six in ten Gazans agreed that religious leaders should have an influence in decisions of government. In 2010 and 2012, however, 44 percent held this view.

Not only did support for giving religion a greater role in politics decline among Gazans overall, but there was also a significant drop among Hamas supporters. In 2006, 74 percent supported giving religious leaders influence over government decisions. By 2010, this percentage had fallen 15 percentage points to 59 percent and 17 percentage points by 2012 (57 percent). Thus, Hamas’s increased support in Gaza is coming increasingly from those who do not support its underlying Islamist ideology.


Worth a read, for sure.
posted by mediareport at 8:33 AM on August 5, 2014 [5 favorites]


That article was co-authored by Amaney Jamal, who is probably the most important scholar working on Arab public opinion in the world.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:46 AM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


The Democracy Now report linked to be Noisy Pink Bubbles has Finkelstein making an interesting point--he notes that Sisi successfully sealed tunnels from Gaza to Egypt without resorting to bombing so why did Israel have to destroy civilian infrastructure and kill so many civilians in order to do the same with tunnels from Gaza to Israel.
posted by faux ami at 8:55 AM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


so why did Israel have to destroy civilian infrastructure

Daihya Doctrine?
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:04 AM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


The scene in Shuja’iya after a month of bombardment: BBC video report
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:30 AM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]




If Hamas has never had the "Consent of the Governed", never having > 50% of the population supporting them, the only reason to continue pretending they're a legitimate government is to raze the Gaza Ghetto and kill everyone trapped therein.
posted by mikelieman at 9:41 AM on August 5, 2014


Huh?
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:51 AM on August 5, 2014


faux ami, I really enjoyed that Finkelstein interview as well and thought he gave a great summary of the situation and make some incisive criticisms. The US said stop the killing, the Israeli death toll was rising, and the killing stopped. I appreciated his critique of Postol's position -- the lack of destruction of Israeli civilian infrastructure attests to the ineffectiveness of Hamas' projectiles; the "early warning" system and shelters are only part of the reason why Israeli civilian casualties are so low. Also, he asks a great question about reparations to Gaza, and highlights how Kerry et al are going to use this as an excuse to congratulate themselves on doing less than nothing. It's chilling to think that the destruction of the tunnels internal to Gaza were basically a prelude to "next time"... whatever that might be.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:54 AM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]




It's chilling to think that the destruction of the tunnels internal to Gaza were basically a prelude to "next time"... whatever that might be.

This part didn't make a lot of sense to me. Couldn't Hamas rebuild the tunnels by the time Israel mows the lawn again? I liked the interview as well, but I'm not convinced Obama had as much to do with the ceasefire as public opinion and the fact that Bibi didn't have much of a strategy in the first place. It is highly likely he will continue bombing and refuse to open the borders. If there is a truce, Obama should try to find a way to insure that the UN and international community becomes more fully and permanently embedded in Gaza during the rebuilding, and that disarming Hamas becomes part of their charter. Slowly replace or subsume Hamas with the PLA and peaceful international institutions.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:14 AM on August 5, 2014


It is also interesting that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan all have big problems of their own approaching and share enemies with Israel ( Iran, ISIS, Hesbollah, Hamas). And they are all disgusted with the US for handing Iraq over to Iran and ISIS, supporting the Muslim Brotherhood, and "supporting Hamas." If it weren't for the ultra-nationalist leadership in Israel who will never give up the West Bank, there would seem to be good conditions for a peace agreement. Unfortunately it seems the agreement being made is Israel can do whatever they want as long as Palestinian suffering doesn't become too egregious.

It is sad to read Edward Saeed's review of the situation from 1993. It seems that Palestinians may have passed by many opportunities for a settlement due to poor leadership that they will never see again.

The Morning After (Edward Said)

Looking for the Enduring Photo in Gaza (JAMES ESTRIN)
Q. We have many photos of the casualties and destruction in Gaza. Why don’t we have many photos of Hamas fighters or missiles?

A. This is a war fought largely behind the scenes. Hamas fighters are not able to expose themselves. If they were to even step a foot on the street they would be spotted by an Israeli drone and immediately blown up. We don’t see those fighters. They are operating out of buildings and homes and at night. They are moving around very carefully. You don’t see any signs of authority on the streets. If you can imagine every police officer, every person of authority in America gone, this is what that would look like.

Sometimes people assume that you can have access to everything, that you can see everything. But the fighters are virtually invisible to us. What we do as photographers is document what we can to show that side of the war. There are funerals, there are people being rushed to the hospital, but you can’t differentiate the fighters from the civilians. They are not wearing uniforms. If there is someone coming into the hospital injured, you can’t tell if that’s just a shopkeeper or if this is someone who just fired a rocket towards Israel. It’s impossible to know who’s who. We tried to cover this as objectively as possible.
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:25 AM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Truce is holding, as Israel withdraws ground troops. No return of Palestinians allowed in the new "buffer zone". Those people are permanently displaced as long as Israel says so. Bombardment of Rafah continued until the last minute of the ceasefire beginning.

Palestinians struggle to dig out bodies, and when they do, there's no place to bury them.

A question from Gaza: Am I not human enough?

Gaza's voice from under the staircase


Are UK banks targeting Muslim charities?


Freedom and justice For Gaza: Boycott action against 7 complicit companies and Israel’s massacre in Gaza prompts international sanctions and boycott action.
posted by dejah420 at 11:26 AM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


The Last And First Temptation Of Israel

the deputy speaker of the Knesset has called for ethnic cleansing in Gaza
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:32 AM on August 5, 2014 [7 favorites]


a) The IDF [Israeli army] shall designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined. The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected.
I guess comparisons of the Israeli Government to the Nazis are proven valid, what with this plan for concentration camps prior to deportation...
posted by mikelieman at 11:41 AM on August 5, 2014


Quakers divest from more corporations that support the occupation of Palestine.
posted by dejah420 at 11:51 AM on August 5, 2014 [4 favorites]




Noisy Pink Bubbles: Russell Brand Accuses Sean Hannity 'Of Looking Like Ken Doll' In Gaza Video Response

The next instalment of Russell Brand v. Sean Hannity is here.
posted by gman at 12:54 PM on August 5, 2014


Dennis Kucinich: Crimes against humanity in Gaza: is it really a 'buffer zone' – or a bigger plan?

Why is this in the Guardian and not the NYT or the WP?
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:59 PM on August 5, 2014


Why is this in the Guardian and not the NYT or the WP?

Uh, because our media is just as cowardly as our politicians are?
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:03 PM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


Golden Eternity: "Why is this in the Guardian and not the NYT or the WP?"

Well, for the NYT, this is why: Candid video reveals NYT bureau chief Jodi Rudoren’s Zionist bubble.
posted by dejah420 at 1:08 PM on August 5, 2014


My grandmother (killed by Nazi troopers) did not die to give cover to Israeli commandos killing Palestinian grandmothers. UK MP Gerald Kaufman gives a speech on the floor.

Irish Senator David Norris "Israel bombs first and weeps later".

There are political voices speaking out in defense of Palestine. Just none in the halls of power in the US. But the rest of the world, they've noticed that Israel does this every few years, and gods willing, other countries will have the courage to start an apartheid level boycott and embargo, which is really the only option left.

Israel has nukes, and frankly, I'm pretty sure they'll use them given half a chance if they felt the tiniest bit threatened by anyone more powerful than a kid holding a rock or a firecracker.
posted by dejah420 at 1:30 PM on August 5, 2014 [3 favorites]


Golden Eternity,

Couldn't Hamas rebuild the tunnels by the time Israel mows the lawn again?

Well, they might have a bit of trouble doing that now that smuggling tunnels from Egypt have been cut off since Sisi's coup.

I'm not convinced Obama had as much to do with the ceasefire as public opinion

The two aren't necessarily exclusive. There were tens of thousands of people in front of Obama's residence screaming at him to stop the killing quite recently. Maybe he got the message.

and the fact that Bibi didn't have much of a strategy in the first place

Well, suppose he didn't (and I'm not sure this is a good assumption), why did he pull out now?
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:31 PM on August 5, 2014


I don't think he's necessarily pulled out. He only pulled out the ground troops. Israel can still bomb Gaza at will. I saw something on twitter that Egypt has told the Palestinians there will be no discussion at all on the airport, seaport, or opening the Raffah crossing. Hamas has previously said they will continue fighting unless these demands are met. Perhaps they are running out of rockets and can't use tunnels or mortars anymore and soon won't be able to fight back. Until that time, I don't think Bibi will stop bombing.

gods willing, other countries will have the courage to start an apartheid level boycott and embargo, which is really the only option left.

I was kind of young at the time, but I don't recall the anti-apartheid movement ever being very significant in the US. Maybe an anti-occupation movement could work out the same way.
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:39 PM on August 5, 2014




I think I was in Europe during most of the anti-apartheid movement in the US, so my memories of it are colored by the UK and Holland, where there was much movement. However, this archive from the CS monitor seems to suggest that the movement was fairly strong and loud here in the 80s. Congresscritters getting arrested, massive rallies, universities being shut down by protests, etc. It was a long struggle, iirc. I think the first anti-apartheid rally I went to was in the early 80s, and apartheid didn't end until 94.

That said; I've been watching Israel destroy the Palestine lands and people for most of my life, and I'm not sure we've got another 10 years. Given the new "no-go" areas, with more than 22,000 people per square mile in Gaza now, and no water, and no food, and no electricity, the tunnels to the West Bank and Egypt closed so that nothing can get in past the punishing blockade that starved a generation of children into malnutrition, bodies piled into mass graves so that families will be buried unremarked and unremembered, and no guarantee that the Israelis won't do this again as soon as anything is rebuilt, and the western powers tacitly approving and providing the weaponry to kill women and children and bomb hospitals and schools...what hope is there?
posted by dejah420 at 2:20 PM on August 5, 2014 [3 favorites]


This will end with Gaza being part of Greater Israel, then the Israeli government will turn its attention to the other Palestinian Reservations and absorbing them too into Greater Israel.

Deputy Speaker for the Knesset Moshe Feiglin laid out a plan that seems as if it is being slowly implemented.

I said it earlier and I will say it again: at this point I do not think it is possible to really deny that the long term goal of the current Israeli government is nothing short of completely eliminating the Palestinian people, whether by killing them, starving them, or "merely" evicting them. We have a word for that. Read the linked op-ed. Again let me emphasize that this is not a random loon, but the Deputy Speaker for the Knesset. He explicitly and quite clearly states that one of his goals eliminating the Palestinian population. He labels one part of his action list "elimination". I'll quote its entirety here.
Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.
I think we may well be nearing an endgame, at least for Palestinians in Gaza, and there is absolutely nothing you, or I, can do about it. MK Feiglen and his fellows are not merely winning, they have pretty much won. The Gazan population will not survive with 44% of the already cramped living space taken away.

We are wittnessing a slow genocide. It's been going on my entire life, and I don't think at this point anything can stop it, even if the US were willing to immediately suspend all support for Israel (which won't happen) the de-Palistinization of Gaza will be carried out. And then they'll use the same tactics to de-Palestinize the West Bank.

The theocrats and right wingers have well and truly won.
posted by sotonohito at 2:40 PM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


"Enemy Population".

Yeesh.
posted by sotonohito at 2:41 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


I feel somewhat embarrassed for Tyler Hicks, the NY Times photographer covering Gaza:
Q. We have many photos of the casualties and destruction in Gaza. Why don’t we have many photos of Hamas fighters or missiles?

A. This is a war fought largely behind the scenes. Hamas fighters are not able to expose themselves. If they were to even step a foot on the street they would be spotted by an Israeli drone and immediately blown up. We don’t see those fighters. If we had access to them, we would be photographing them. [...] I never saw a single device for launching the rockets to Israel. It’s as if they don’t exist.
You would think that the Grey Lady would be able to do a bit better than that, but a team from NDTV (an Indian broadcaster) has managed to get the goods ... by pointing a camera out of their hotel window:
NDTV Exclusive: How Hamas Assembles and Fires Rockets

Here's what they say about constraints on reporting from Gaza:
This report is being aired on NDTV and published on ndtv.com after our team left the Gaza strip - Hamas has not taken very kindly to any reporting of its rockets being fired. But just as we reported the devastating consequences of Israel's offensive on Gaza's civilians, it is equally important to report on how Hamas places those very civilians at risk by firing rockets deep from the heart of civilian zones.
Oh dear. Well, I can understand that Mr Hicks may be a coward, or may feel that he has to keep silent to protect his family. But why did he have to lie? Lots of people have reported missiles being fired from near the hotels; I can't believe that NDTV is the only one with a window overlooking an empty lot.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:53 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe in Australia: these tunnels exist for the sole purpose of committing war crimes.

They're also infrastructure for smuggling in the goods that keep Gazans alive.

If you're going to talk war crimes... What Israel has done to Gaza makes anything Hamas did look like babytime frolics. If you look at the posters the Germans put up in occupied Poland explaining the totally obvious and rational reasons they were forced to carry out reprisals against unreasonable Polish civilians sheltering friends or family had taken potshots at Germans, you'll see that the Israeli rhetoric is much the same.
posted by anemone of the state at 3:00 PM on August 5, 2014 [13 favorites]


The thread could really do without more of your faux-concern and character attacks. Why not just present the NDTV information and let folks digest the information? Your insinuations and logical inferences are again ridiculous. Cut it out, man.
posted by faux ami at 3:01 PM on August 5, 2014 [5 favorites]


Tyler Hicks is not a liar or a coward. Those epithets are better served for those who cheer one-sided wars from thousands of miles away.
posted by cell divide at 3:01 PM on August 5, 2014 [16 favorites]


Joe, on other issues on this site you are a wonderful person but your cheering of the bombardment of what amounts to the world's largest walled ghetto is utterly macabre.
posted by anemone of the state at 3:04 PM on August 5, 2014 [7 favorites]


It looks as though the floodgates have opened, probably because reporters are being allowed out of Gaza. This report, by Gallagher Fenwick of France24 not only shows Hamas' rocket launchers (with kids literally climbing all over them) but points out that they're next to a UN-identified building:

Exclusive: Hamas rocket launch pad revealed near Gaza homes
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:05 PM on August 5, 2014


More breaking news!
Israel: We caught kidnapper behind murder of the 3 teens
JERUSALEM (JTA) — A West Bank man said to be the leader of the terrorist cell that kidnapped and killed three Israeli teenagers in June was arrested.

A gag order on reporting the arrest, which took place more than three weeks ago, was lifted Tuesday evening, according to Israeli media.

Hussam Kawasme of Hebron was apprehended while attempting to flee to Jordan under a false identity with the help of his family, Ynet reported. Kawasme reportedly admitted to serving as the leader of the cell that perpetrated the murders of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Fraenkel and Eyal Yifrach. Kawasme said that funding for the attack, which he used to buy weapons, came from Hamas in Gaza.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:09 PM on August 5, 2014


these tunnels exist for the sole purpose of committing war crimes.

Only if you regard any and all retaliation as an illegitimate crime. There's a definite double standard going on here.

Is all asymmetric warfare a war crime? I'm not saying that firing on civilians is ok, but the tunnels existing solely to commit war crimes seems like an awful fat stretch dude.
posted by emptythought at 3:13 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


A gag order on reporting the arrest, which took place more than three weeks ago, was lifted Tuesday evening, according to Israeli media.

....soooo, this looks really bad on them. Why keep bombing and killing people for weeks if you had already caught the guy who supposedly "started" this whole current situation?

there's some really basic logic failure going on here, with regards to the motivation behind their recent actions.
posted by emptythought at 3:14 PM on August 5, 2014


Exclusive: Hamas rocket launch pad revealed near Gaza homes

The thing is, you've got people assembling hugely ineffective weapons hundreds of feet away from civilian infrastructure. We routinely see videos of US drones taking out moving automobiles spot on and with little damage to the surrounding area. So how is Israel dropping smart bombs directly on houses, apartment buildings, hospitals, schools, etc that are simply *near* rocket sites not actually intentional collective punishment against the population of Gaza, presumably for the crime of not themselves stopping Hamas.

Show me rockets being launched from the roof of a house and I will not object to that house being destroyed. Show me rockets being launched 100 feet away, and the destruction of that house is a war crime.

Would Hamas be justified in destroying homes and schools that are within eyesight of Israeli military installations? I just watched a Vice report with IDF and their tanks inside a kibbutz near the Gaza border - would Hamas be justified in murdering everyone present in that kibbutz? If not, why not?
posted by crayz at 3:16 PM on August 5, 2014 [9 favorites]


I wrote: these tunnels exist for the sole purpose of committing war crimes.
Emptythought responded: Only if you regard any and all retaliation as an illegitimate crime.

That's not actually the case. The whole point of the laws of war is that some acts are legal, some are legal or illegal depending on their context, and some are simply illegal. These tunnels are set up for kidnapping people, like Gilad Shalit. Taking hostages is always illegal, even when the victim is a soldier. And the tunnels are directed towards civilian areas. Deliberate attacks on civilians are always illegal.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:24 PM on August 5, 2014


Joe, that is like saying because Israel has used weapons to target civilians, Israel only uses weapons to target children, and therefore all of Israel's weapons are illegal.

Show me rockets being launched 100 feet away, and the destruction of that house is a war crime.

Show me a launcher being setup by one house and blowing up a different house, or hospital, or power plant, or UNRWA school full of children in a completely different neighborhood away from any Hamas activity is still a war crime. And punishing an entire neighborhood or city for the actions of militants operating within the city is still a war crime.
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:29 PM on August 5, 2014 [4 favorites]


Another good point expanding on your thoughts crayz, is aren't the missiles/rockets/mortars they're using capable of being fired more than 1.8 miles? As in, is there an actual defense related purpose to the buffer zone?

Because it seems like, any time i've ever seen the capabilities of even a relatively shitty shoulder fired missile system or whatever described online, it could go further than 3km. I'd imagine something you have to set up on the ground to fire would be able to kick off with even more authority.

Are they just using the crappiest harbor freight quality rockets here? Or does this buffer zone, as i suspect, have nothing to do with limiting the ability of them to fire rockets into israel.

Looking here, it appears that even the tiniest one can fire 5900m, which is WAY past the buffer zone. The slightly larger one, which is still only 11lb(i used to own a laptop which weighed more than that) can fire 8740m, and there's a 12km version as well.

If they can still fire these rockets way over the border even with the buffer zone, then what the fuck is the point other than the aforementioned concentration of ghettoization??

Note that i am not an expert on military technology, and that i also linked to wikipedia... but still. If 30 seconds on google about the weapons system they've been stated to use gives results that even at their worst go far past that buffer zone, then it's pretty suspect.
posted by emptythought at 3:33 PM on August 5, 2014


Deliberate attacks on civilians are always illegal.

So why do you continue to excuse, apologize for, and enable Israel to deliberately kill civilians?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:37 PM on August 5, 2014 [10 favorites]


We need a better definition of what it means to deliberately attack or target civilians. Long range artillery, mortars, unguided bombs, and other weapons are not as precise as the IDF is given credit for. If you target a soldier posing no immediate threat who is within 100 feet of a school full of children with heavy artillery and it has a >5% chance of hitting the school, that should be considered targeting children, imo. Many cases of IDF targeting in Gaza probably have a greater than 30% or even 50% chance of hitting innocent civilians. They just don't care enough. It turns out the IDF is not the most moral. And this is assuming the IDF hasn't directly targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure, though it seems that it has in some cases.
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:44 PM on August 5, 2014


If they can still fire these rockets way over the border even with the buffer zone, then what the fuck is the point other than the aforementioned concentration of ghettoization??

Three obvious reasons come to mind. First, Israel is more concerned with Hamas killing its people than with mere technical breaches of its borders. A border zone means that Hamas's fighters are not right next to Israeli civilians. Secondly, interception requires lead time. The further away a missile starts, the more time you have to intercept it. Finally, it's probably more about the tunnels than anything else: a border zone means the tunnels must be much longer, which makes them more difficult and harder to construct.

While I'm on the subject, Anemone of the State said:
[The tunnels] are also infrastructure for smuggling in the goods that keep Gazans alive.

Actually, no. To start with, the smuggling was going on via Rafah, on the Egyptian border. These tunnels are almost all on the Israeli side. Secondly, a huge amount (like, hundreds of trucks a day) of goods come legally from israel via the Keren Shalom border crossing. There are very few restrictions nowadays, and I don't know of any that would be classified as "the goods that keep Gazans alive". Thirdly, there's a difference between "civilian" tunnels and ones set up for an assault: the military ones are made for attacks, with bunkers, revetments, and booby traps; the civilian ones are smaller, less armored, and made for the quick transport of goods.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:56 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Golden Eternity wrote: We need a better definition of what it means to deliberately attack or target civilians.

A good place to start is with the ICRC. Here's their database on Customary IHL.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:08 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Joe, you do realize that buffer zone amounts to 44% of the Gaza Strip, yes?

That now over 250,000 Palestinians are to be relocated (again) to an even tinier fragment of land?

That this really looks like the first step in implementing MK Feiglen's plan for eliminating the Palestinians from Gaza more than it looks like anything resembling a security need?

What is the end game that doesn't involve Palestinians being relegated to ever shrinking reservations that are cut to pieces by illegal settlements? Not fighting hasn't worked.

When the Palestinians fight, Israel shrinks the Palestinian Reservations, levels infrastructure, and encourages illegal settlements.

When the Palestinians don't fight, Israel shrinks the Palestinian Reservations, levels infrastructure, and encourages illegal settlements.

So how, in your view, do the Palestinians end this situation? Not fighting doesn't get them positive results, why not fight?
posted by sotonohito at 4:15 PM on August 5, 2014 [4 favorites]


The whole point of the laws of war is that some acts are legal... Taking hostages is always illegal, even when the victim is a soldier.

There's a difference between hostage-taking and capturing an enemy solider. Per HRW, "The laws of war do not prohibit warring parties from detaining captured combatants during an armed conflict... It is the specific intent that characterizes hostage taking and distinguishes it from lawful deprivation of someone’s liberty." Hostage-taking is defined as capture done "with the intention to compel a government, international organization or group to act or to refrain from acting as a condition for the safety or release of this individual." Why would this legally rule out using tunnels to capture Israeli soldiers (not that I support the war at all, but simply going by the rules of war as laid out in international law)?

By the way, per Wikipedia, "On 11 December 2012, the office of then Prime Minister Salam Fayyad stated that since 1967, 800,000 Palestinians, or roughly 20% of the total population and 40% of the male population, had been imprisoned by Israel at one point in time. About 100,000 had been held in administrative detention... By March 2008, more than 8,400 Palestinians were held by Israeli civilian and military authorities, of which 5,148 were serving sentences, 2,167 were facing legal proceedings and 790 were under administrative detention, often without charge or knowledge of the suspicions against them." Are 20% of Palestinians and 40% of Palestinian males war criminals? Or are Israelis engaged in illegal hostage-taking in order to get the "quiet" they want?
posted by faux ami at 4:21 PM on August 5, 2014 [5 favorites]


There are very few restrictions nowadays
Joe I wish you would stop being so disingeneous.
In March this year Filippo Grandi, commissioner-general of the United Nations Relief and Works Organization (UNRWA), said Israel and Egypt had legitimate security concerns but that the plight of the 1.8 million Palestinians in Gaza should also be taken into account.
Imports are limited and exports are just about forbidden.
I refer you also to this pdf Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs occupied Palestinian territory. I find your constant half truths and rah rah rah defense of the undefendable extremely distasteful and I will leave others to engage with you.
posted by adamvasco at 4:27 PM on August 5, 2014 [16 favorites]


Taking hostages is always illegal,

Again, explain to me how you expect a gang of criminals to OBEY THE LAW?

We **expect** the Israeli Government to OBEY THE LAW, because they're -- a legitimate government.

Gaza isn't a country. ( ask the UN ) and Hamas isn't a legitimate government.

But it seems that you're holding Hamas accountable for something no rational person would -- obeying the law.
posted by mikelieman at 4:58 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


I find your constant half truths and rah rah rah defense of the undefendable extremely distasteful

It reminds me of this quote from an article I read in the New Yorker recently (highly recommended).
Like any effective propagandist, Leontiev had artfully woven the true, the half true, and the preposterous into a fabric of lurid colors.
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:58 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


We **expect** the Israeli Government to OBEY THE LAW, because they're -- a legitimate government.

Well, that, and we give them $3 billion a year.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:59 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


We'll eventually discover that $3 billion comes not only with the usual provisos that it be spent on U.S. weapons but the legal language got interpreted as requiring that they actually use the weapons rather than merely that they buy more later. ;)
posted by jeffburdges at 5:48 PM on August 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Jeez. How do they justify forbidding exports? That's pretty fucked up.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:50 PM on August 5, 2014


Yeah, that way when they're in the dock at The Hague they can testify they were just following orders.
posted by Pudhoho at 6:08 PM on August 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


Jeffburdges, my understanding (after a quick search on Google) is that there aren't any direct export restrictions. The main problem faced with getting goods through the crossings (in either direction) is that trucks are no longer allowed to go directly through: the goods have to be unloaded from one truck and transferred to another truck on the other side. This slows everything down and is expensive. Furthermore, the crossing is closed down when it gets attacked, which happens a lot more than you might think. It also gets closed down when the Israelis suspect it's going to be attacked. And it gets closed down by Hamas when they're in a pissy mood. So the crossing is subject to random delays, plus closures on weekends. The best figures I have indicate that it's open 50-60% of the time, but I bet the random delays are a killer for agricultural exports - a truckload of strawberries won't do well in the summer heat.

Other problems exporters have are:
1) Importing raw materials. There may not be import restrictions on most items, but that doesn't mean there are no restrictions;
2) It's probably a hassle importing things. I don't have any figures on this, but it stands to reason;
3) It must be hard to market your business if you're in Gaza.

I don't think any of these issues (which are all the ones I can think of) are unreasonable from Israel's perspective. On the other hand, they're real and they hurt people trying to support a civil life in Gaza. Gazans lose out in all sorts of ways because of Hamas, and this is one of them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:25 PM on August 5, 2014


Faux ami wrote: There's a difference between hostage-taking and capturing an enemy solider. Per HRW [...] Why would this legally rule out using tunnels to capture Israeli soldiers (not that I support the war at all, but simply going by the rules of war as laid out in international law)?

Capturing soldiers per se isn't a military act: you don't build a tunnel over a period of years and risk death to a dozen operatives just to deprive the other side of a single soldier. The reason for the tunnels, other than attacking civilians, is that captured soldiers are bargaining chips for Hamas. This is why they captured Gilad Shalit, who was held hostage for five years and subsequently exchanged for over a thousand Palestinian prisoners.

By the way, per Wikipedia, "On 11 December 2012, the office of then Prime Minister Salam Fayyad stated that since 1967, 800,000 Palestinians, or roughly 20% of the total population and 40% of the male population, had been imprisoned by Israel at one point in time.

I don't know how accurate that figure is, but it would include (a) every Palestinian imprisoned for any offense ever, including (e.g.) traffic violations or domestic violence; and (b) isn't that around the incarceration rate of African-Americans in the USA?

That doesn't mean it's a good thing, of course, but considering that the PLO wasn't even hypothetically at peace with Israel until 1993, and considering the amount of incitement to violence directed at Palestinian teens, it's lower than you might expect.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:43 PM on August 5, 2014


Well considering that Hamas has killed like, what, a couple dozen Israeli civilians in its entire existence, and Israel has killed how many palestinian civilians? In the past month about 1000? I mean what an exercise in casuistry it is to paint Israel as the kind and just giant restrained by moral principles as they wantonly murder palestinian children. Must be why so much attention is trying to be diverted to Hamas.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:59 PM on August 5, 2014 [8 favorites]


I don't think any of these issues (which are all the ones I can think of) are unreasonable from Israel's perspective.

Those things that Israel is doing to create those issues are acts of war by the way.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:00 PM on August 5, 2014 [3 favorites]


Well considering that Hamas has killed like, what, a couple dozen Israeli civilians in its entire existence [...]

More people than that were killed by Hamas in the Passover Massacre alone. But this obsession with numbers is weird: should Israel tolerate these rockets, even if they hadn't killed anyone? Should they let Hamas import more weapons so they can be more successful? And what about the Gazans themselves: Hamas has undoubtedly murdered more Palestinians than Israelis, even leaving aside deaths caused by their own rockets. Hamas is the enemy of everybody except themselves, and it's time for the killing to stop.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:30 PM on August 5, 2014


But this obsession with numbers is weird: should Israel tolerate these rockets, even if they hadn't killed anyone?

Joe, this is a horrific and absurd statement. It leads directly to Mr. Gordon's conclusions. Israel can not tolerate the rockets. The only way they claim to know of to stop the rockets is to commit atrocities possibly up to and including genocide. Because the rockets can not be tolerated under any circumstances and genocide is the only way to stop them, genocide is permitted. Of course the "numbers" matter. Israel has a right to respond to the rockets. They don't have a right to massacre people and cause immense, disproportionate suffering in response.
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:39 PM on August 5, 2014 [6 favorites]


The export issues are obviously part of a broader infringement of liberties that are destroying the future for Palestinians. We've seen the damage that long-term poverty and unemployment have had here in the States as well as in Europe. Well, Israeli restrictions affect land management, access to agricultural and mineral resources, commercial economies of scale, investment, movement of workers and goods, worker training, urban planning, just to name a few. These restrictions put the suffering experienced by some of our most impoverished to shame. In the West Bank, lack of access to land amounted to estimated losses of $3.8 billion per year per a 2013 World Bank report. The GDP in all of Palestine is only roughly $4 billion per year. Even beyond Israel's two-tier system of rules and laws, consistent human rights violations, and collective punishment (plus the illegal occupation), this economic destruction is not remotely tolerable from any perspective and is at the heart of what's wrong in the region.

Capturing soldiers per se isn't a military act It's also not de facto hostage-taking, as you claimed. You consistently elevate your (exaggerated) opinion to fact and it's a really pernicious way to debate. From the NYT: 'Hamas has changed its doctrine and is using the tunnels as a main method of operation,” said Israel Ziv, a retired general who headed the military’s Gaza division and its operations directorate. “This is something we learned amid the fighting.” [...] Israeli troops in Gaza described Hamas gunmen who vanished from one house, like magicians, and suddenly popped up to fire at them from another. And while Hamas fighters are able to use the tunnels to surprise the forces from behind and to attack those in the rear, Israeli soldiers find themselves having to improvise.

I don't know how accurate that figure is, but it would include (a) every Palestinian imprisoned for any offense ever, including (e.g.) traffic violations or domestic violence; and (b) isn't that around the incarceration rate of African-Americans in the USA?

Administrative detentions of Palestinians and lack of due process for many of the detainees are troubling regardless of the proportion of Palestinians jailed for civic infractions versus political reasons. There have been an awful lot of administrative detentions.

I'd love to get into a discussion about the prison system and examples of internal colonialism comparing blacks in America and Palestinians, but just checking first: Are you actually suggesting that a Palestinian incarceration rate similar to the U.S. African-American incarceration rate is a comparison that redounds to Israel's credit? We should let that comment sit there for a while, because it really says everything one needs to know about the viewpoints shared above.
posted by faux ami at 7:42 PM on August 5, 2014 [5 favorites]


Joe in Australia: and (b) isn't that around the incarceration rate of African-Americans in the USA?

You know, I never thought I'd see "А у вас негров линчуют" after the fall of the Berlin wall.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:19 PM on August 5, 2014 [10 favorites]


jeffburdges: "Jeez. How do they justify forbidding exports? That's pretty fucked up."

Joe in Australia: "Gazans lose out in all sorts of ways because of Hamas,"

Soap was/is one of the primary exports for Nablus, and had been since the Roman era. Some historians believe the Nabulis factories existed in the time of Roman occupation, survived the Ottoman empire, and the British Empire.

This picture was taken in the early 1900s. The drying rooms and basements were still in use, and soap was still dried that way, and shipped around the world until 2002, when the Israelis destroyed it.

And I don't mean, "oh look, there's a bomb!", I mean blew it into bits, ground the bricks into dust, destroyed it. Then they went around with their tanks, and did the same thing to almost every other successful business, especially those with high exports. (Stopping along the way to bury people in their homes, kidnap women and children to use them as shields when they rounded up others, tortured and beat people, you know, the usual tactics when IDF is on the ground.)

Only two or three of the more than 30 soap factories in Nabulus were left standing. When Nabulus tried to rebuild, Israel came back and leveled it again in 2003. (This is of course, after the destruction in Nablus the first time in 1967 when the occupation began.)

Fast forward to 2014; an industry that used to supply the entire British empire, and the whole of the Levant, for hundreds if not thousands of years, has been reduced to a tiny boutique business (comparatively).

According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the checkpoints and road blocks set up throughout the West Bank have created problems in the transportation of supplies and material to and from the factories as well as making it difficult for workers to get from their homes to the factories. Additionally exports have to go through Israeli ports/taxes/tariffs/, since they destroyed and forbade the Palestinians from having their own port.

Nabul is in the West Bank. The side without Hamas. Don't' tell me Hamas is the root of the problem. I'm way too old for that to fly.

I remember. It's always something. It will always be something.

There is nothing but total capitulation and acceptance of second class citizenship in their own homeland that the Palestinians can do to make Israel stop.

If they gave in that far, if they accepted a status below that of the Real Israeli, then they would be forbidden from renting in certain areas, forced into segregated schools, forbidden to date Real Israeli's.

Oh, no wait...that's already happened.

Hamas my happy ass, man. Hamas is not the fucking problem here.
posted by dejah420 at 9:25 PM on August 5, 2014 [37 favorites]


Umm, Israel cannot afford give all the Palestinians even second class citizenship, dejah420, not if it wants to be a majority Jewish state. Ya know, second class citizens tend not to remain second class forever. Israel needs a two or three state solution.

Imho, Israel should've made a real play for peace as three separate nations way back when Hamas first got elected in Gaza. I.e. they should've recognized both the West Bank and Gaza as independent nations, or at least recognized the P.A. and stated that Gaza was disputed, and backed off, dropped the blockade, etc., while still preventing ground travel across Israel.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:08 PM on August 5, 2014


Jeffburdges, both Hamas and Fatah are ostensibly committed to a single unified Palestinian nation (which they each expect to control). Nobody, back then or now, is or was willing to talk about two Palestinian entities.

One big unspoken cause of this war is the fact that Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian Authority (i.e., the PA in the West Bank) wasn't willing to pay the employees of Hamas' Palestinian Authority (i.e., the PA in Gaza). You see, each side has been paying people for the longest time, despite the fact that at least half of those employees are either superfluous or literally prevented from working. This presented the reconstituted Unity PA with a problem, and I suppose Mahmoud Abbas had the upper hand. As a consequence, Hamas suddenly had very little income. It couldn't even rely on "taxes" from smuggling any more because many of the tunnels are closed off. Qatar, which backs Hamas, tried to transfer money to "pay" these "employees", but Israel blocked it. Hamas was clearly desperate, which must have had some effect on their decision to go to war with Israel.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:59 PM on August 5, 2014


Well considering that Hamas has killed like, what, a couple dozen Israeli civilians in its entire existence

Errr what? The same Hamas that orchestrated hundreds of attacks and suicide bombings across Israel over 15 years? Consider that perhaps the reason regular Israelis distrust Hamas so much is not merely the thousands of rockets from which sirens, shelters, and Iron Dome protects them, but the fact that Hamas is and was the most successful participant in a campaign that terrorized and, yes, murdered a whole lot of Israelis. I do not understand why you can't condemn the very high civilian death toll in Gaza without minimizing Hamas's words or deeds.
posted by lullaby at 12:04 AM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


If you add up all of the civilian deaths attributed to Hamas since they began their campaign of disgusting atrocities 20 years ago it adds up to about 600 people. Or, as the IDF might call it "July".
posted by chaz at 2:12 AM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


It’s self-evident that life in Israel is better than life in Gaza and that well-equipped militaries are capable of inflicting more damage than militant groups. Yet 'Hamas: not a group that really kills people' remains a pretty egregious factual inaccuracy.
posted by lullaby at 2:51 AM on August 6, 2014


I think the real point is "How can a group of criminals confined to a Ghetto -- and who have killed fewer people in their entire history than the IDF did LAST MONTH -- really be considered an existential threat to one of the largest armies on the planet?"
posted by mikelieman at 2:54 AM on August 6, 2014 [6 favorites]


Travel destinations: Gaza Malls, Hotels & Resorts
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:07 AM on August 6, 2014


"A biscuit factory, halfway between Rafah and Gaza City, is a smoking ruin. It employed hundreds. Huge amounts of livestock have died. Vast areas of agricultural land are littered with unexploded ordnance. Then there are the villages – and parts of Rafah itself – that have been effectively levelled."

Report by Jason Burke for The Guardian
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:57 AM on August 6, 2014


Here's a comic representation of approximately how this thread is going.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:12 AM on August 6, 2014 [5 favorites]


Mod note: A few comments deleted, and a few reminders: please don't do the just-like-Nazis thing; please don't make this personal; please don't flood the thread with constant comments. If you are feeling overwhelmed, better to step away a bit and come back later. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 4:28 AM on August 6, 2014


My bad lullaby. I stand corrected
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:28 AM on August 6, 2014


Leading members of the Israeli government are proposing putting Palestinians in concentration camps.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:29 AM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


Eran Efrati (above) Israeli Army whistleblower arrested and questioned and had both his Facebook and email accounts blocked and apparently received death threats aimed at keeping him silent.
Meanwhile The Independent talks about the Snowden leak revealing the extent of US intelligence co-operation with Israel and also the arming of Israel by both USA and UK.
posted by adamvasco at 5:13 AM on August 6, 2014 [3 favorites]


Leading members of the Israeli government are proposing putting Palestinians in concentration camps prior to mass deportation.
posted by mikelieman at 6:21 AM on August 6, 2014




UK government reviewing £8bn of arms sales to Israel
Ministers say contracts for military equipment will be individually examined to ensure they are not being used in Gaza offensive.
How money vanishes into thin air during a West Bank raid

Anti-Israel Prof. Steve Salaita loses job offer at U. Illinois over hateful tweets

I'm not sure they are hateful, but the one blaming Israel for anti-semitism was awful. A couple more: (twitter)
"Hamas" is the biggest red herring in American political discourse since Saddam's "weapons of mass destruction."
#Gaza #GazaUnderAttack

#Israel gets billions in aid, arms, and financial subsidies from the US, yet most Americans condemn imaginary Black women for welfare.
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:52 AM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]




You've quoted two pretty unobjectionable tweets by @stevesalaita, some others ambiguously accuse Israel of genocide. We now know that some Israeli politicians want genocide, so his iffy tweets are imho reasonable, but so far the IDF's actions don't resemble what one expects in genocide cases. And tweets aren't such a good forum for making that distinction.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:24 AM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]




jeffburdges the bigger issue is that a prof lost his job offer because of his tweets. We've seen this before. Juan Cole was blocked from going to Yale. Norman Finkelstein's tenure case was denied largely because of outside pressure. Edward Said's office was set on fire.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:36 AM on August 6, 2014 [5 favorites]


On Human Shields
Based on this claim, two moral arguments are made: first, that because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, Hamas is responsible for their deaths, not the IDF. In other words, those civilians do not count among the negative effects of the IDF that must be outweighed by the positive to satisfy proportionality. Second, insofar as Hamas is intentionally trying to use the IDF's concern for civilians as a means to advance its own military objectives, one of the positive achievements of Protective Edge is that the IDF is resisting Hamas’ attempt to subvert morality in the pursuit of an unjust cause. Analogously, we ought not make deals with kidnappers because doing so encourages more and more severe repetition of the same technique, even if, were we to consider this case in isolation, it would clearly be appropriate to make a deal.

Whether or not Hamas is in fact using civilians in this way, these moral arguments are problematic. Let’s take them in turn.
Europe Has a Serious Anti-Semitism Problem, And It's Not All About Israel
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:19 AM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


Yeah, blaming Israel for antisemitism is disturbing. I don't think he should have lost his job for it, but he should apologise.

Meanwhile in Israel a professor was censured by his university for expressing empathy with Palestinian suffering, while another professor openly calling for IDF to rape Palestinian sisters and mothers to "stop terrorism" was not reprimanded at all as far as I know.

Call for arms embargo on Israel

PHOTOS: Gaza's half-million internally displaced
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:27 AM on August 6, 2014 [6 favorites]


What's wrong with concluding that the actions of the Israeli government are giving aid and comfort to anti-semites by confirming their worst up-to-now paranoid delusions.

The Israeli governments actions are increasing the risk to me, a Jew living in the Diaspora.

And I have to say, when senior Israeli government officials are floating the idea of going from ghettos to concentration camps prior to 'deportation', there's not a lot to be said in Israel's defense, is there?

And if they're going to make my life more dangerous, they really should stop pretending they represent Jews, and take the Mogen David off the flag.
posted by mikelieman at 9:53 AM on August 6, 2014 [3 favorites]


If someone decides to fire-bomb a synagogue (a common occurance globally) or assault someone for being Jewish, responsibility can not be put on "Israel" or anyone else but the perpetrator or those inciting racist antisemitic hatred. It is the same for assaults on Arabic people in Israel, now also a common occurence. It is similar to Joe blaming Israeli "soccer fans'" hatred of Palestinian children, including cheerfully calling for their death, on "Hamas."
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:09 AM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think we can simultaneously place the blame on actual anti-semites and believe (which is supported by empirical evidence) the fact that violent acts committed by the state of Israel will elevate anti-semitic beliefs.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:17 AM on August 6, 2014 [6 favorites]


BBC: Gaza action behind rise of anti-Semitism, claims peer
A retired senior diplomat has suggested that "much anti-Semitism is a reaction to the appalling Israeli treatment of its Arab neighbours".

Lord Wright of Richmond made his comments in the House of Lords as peers discussed reports of an increase in anti-Semitic actions across Europe.

His words were greeted with murmurs of disapproval and cries of "no".

Lord Winston said Lord Wright's logic would mean violence in Syria would cause anti-Islamic feeling in Britain.
posted by rosswald at 10:29 AM on August 6, 2014


violent acts committed by the state of Israel will elevate anti-semitic beliefs.

So what. Gay marriage incites homophobia. The freedom riders incited racism. Should civil rights activists be blamed for elevating homophobia and racism? The fact that Israel's actions may incite more hatred against Jews should not factor into their decisions at all, and therefore Israel should never be blamed or held responsible for it.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:29 AM on August 6, 2014


Lord Winston said Lord Wright's logic would mean violence in Syria would cause anti-Islamic feeling in Britain.

And when a Islamic terrorists turned planes into bombs in the US, anti-Islamic beliefs increased. Or do you deny that?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:39 AM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


Gay marriage incites homophobia. The freedom riders incited racism. Should civil rights activists be blamed for elevating homophobia and racism?

No one said we should blame Israel for inciting anti-semitism.

Gay marriage and civil rights are not remotely equivalent to the mass murder of Palestinians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:41 AM on August 6, 2014 [6 favorites]


I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "people are doing something in my name that I find to be morally abhorrent, and since they claim to be doing it in my name, people assume that I support it, and I hate that."
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:58 AM on August 6, 2014 [4 favorites]


Israel is a colonial military power, a militarized society and a democracy all folded into one.
Israeli sociologist Eva Illouz tells SPIEGEL that her country is gripped by fear and is becoming increasingly suspicious of democracy.
'The Real Danger to Israel Comes from Within'.
posted by adamvasco at 11:13 AM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


For those like myself paywalled out here is the Foreign Policy article
How Israel’s Ultra-Vocal Hawks Destroyed The Israeli Peace Movement
posted by adamvasco at 11:17 AM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


No one said we should blame Israel for inciting anti-semitism.

This is the tweet in question:
By eagerly conflating Jewishness and Israel, Zionists are partly responsible when people say antisemitic shit in response to Israeli terror.
A few more:
Who looks more like a B-movie villain, John Bolton or Dick Cheney? (We know they both behave worse than one.)

When Pat Robertson's followers are your greatest advocates, you have a serious problem. Especially if you're a Jewish state.
He's definitely entertaining, but the one tweet is abhorrent, and I don't like the overall anti-Israel stance. The opposition should be focused on the ultranationalist, pro-occupation element in Israel.

This is insane:

LONDON THEATER HALTS JEWISH FILM FESTIVAL OVER ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MONEY
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:54 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't know how accurate that figure is, but it would include (a) every Palestinian imprisoned for any offense ever, including (e.g.) traffic violations or domestic violence; and (b) isn't that around the incarceration rate of African-Americans in the USA?

I'm confused as to what the point of even making this comparison is, other than to expand the parameters of the conversation to a point at which it's utterly meaningless and covers so much land as to be impossible to fight on all fronts.

You perpetually add new points and comparisons for people to fight on, that are away from the main discussion.

I can't escape the feeling that you are perpetually trying to derail this conversation into something angry and irrational, so that you can either declare victory over the masses rolling in the slop or simply prevent reasonable discourse from happening.

I mean, i know we're supposed to assume good faith and stuff, but i feel like you've burned that candle to the hilt at this point.
posted by emptythought at 1:12 PM on August 6, 2014 [4 favorites]


And when a Islamic terrorists turned planes into bombs in the US, anti-Islamic beliefs increased. Or do you deny that?

It is a weird analogy - though most of the 9/11 crew were Saudis, they were a multi-national group, not supported by a specific country - but yes, this happened. IMO, the point we are discussing though has more to do with conflating the actions of a religiously affiliated country with the religion as a whole.

There are many countries with state religions - usually though the actions of these countries aren't taken to represent the entirety of their officially recognized religion.

Your point does make me curious though how Israeli views of Palestinians changed after the first and second intifada - I wonder there was a similar rise in anti-Palestinian sentiment.
posted by rosswald at 1:16 PM on August 6, 2014


And I don't mean, "oh look, there's a bomb!", I mean blew it into bits, ground the bricks into dust, destroyed it. Then they went around with their tanks, and did the same thing to almost every other successful business, especially those with high exports.

Refer to the cable posted above.

This is not just someones opinion about what they were doing or anything, this is literally a concrete part of their plan.
posted by emptythought at 1:27 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


When Home Is a War Zone

When I’m overwhelmed with my work, a phone call from my wife, Alaa, makes my moment. But lately, it can also terrify me. I have been reporting around the clock for more than three weeks as Israel carries out its military operation in Gaza, and when I see my wife’s name on my mobile phone’s screen, I expect the worst.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:39 PM on August 6, 2014


IMO, the point we are discussing though has more to do with conflating the actions of a religiously affiliated country with the religion as a whole.

I've heard it said on MetaFilter before, and think it makes sense, that Jewishness - especially in this context - is an ethnicity not a religion, though religion is perhaps an important cultural component of ethnicity.
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:41 PM on August 6, 2014


conflating the actions of a religiously affiliated country with the religion as a whole.

Putting the Mogen David on the flag is pretty unambiguous.
posted by mikelieman at 1:42 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


As is the blatantly racist 'Right of Return' law...
posted by mikelieman at 1:44 PM on August 6, 2014


Corey Robin on academic freedom:

"Should l be deemed ineligible for another job at a university simply because of some “foul-mouthed,” perhaps even intemperate, tweets that I’m sure I have written?

But I bring up Nelson’s case for another reason. And that is that his hypocrisy is not merely his own. It is a symptom of the effects of Zionism on academic freedom, how pro-Israel forces have consistently attempted to shut down debate on this issue, how they “distort all that is right.” Nelson’s U-Turn demonstrates that we’re heading down a very dangerous road. I strongly urge all of you to put on the brakes."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2014


Putting the Mogen David on the flag is pretty unambiguous.

Many, many, many countries have religious symbols on their flags. Basic flag image site.

As is the blatantly racist 'Right of Return' law...

Right of Return Laws, by Country.
posted by rosswald at 2:06 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


I was just reflecting on the extraordinary fact that English has no common word for any form of nationalism other than Jewish nationalism. How would you say that French nationalists lobbied for language requirements in Canada? Or that Arab nationalists were lobbying against intervention in Libya? In each case you would probably call them French or Arab nationalists, or supporters of French or Arab nationalism, or whatever. It's only with respect to Jewish nationalism that there's a specific term, which allows for things like MisantropicPainforest's quote: "a symptom of the effects of Zionism on academic freedom ..."
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:26 PM on August 6, 2014


Golden Eternity wrote: It is similar to Joe blaming Israeli "soccer fans'" hatred of Palestinian children, including cheerfully calling for their death, on "Hamas."

I didn't, actually.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:30 PM on August 6, 2014


How would you say that French nationalists lobbied for language requirements in Canada?

Bloquistes, off the top of my head.

What is the point of this derail, anyway? We call Jewish nationalists Zionists because, well, a bunch of Jewish nationalists decided to call their movement for a national Jewish home 'Zionism'.

If you were trying to make a point here, you should probably try again.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:35 PM on August 6, 2014 [4 favorites]


I didn't, actually.

It's probably going to be hard to change these guys' sentiments while the missiles are falling.


Okay I stand corrected, but this is still dismissing the racism and changing the focus to the "missiles." If I were to respond to antisemites in Europe singing "death to Jews" by saying, "we probably aren't going to change these guys' sentiments until the bombs stop falling on Gaza," it would be just as disgraceful.
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:38 PM on August 6, 2014


Bloquistes? That's a French word;try finding an English reference in a Google search for it. You're missing the point, though. Every group had their own name at some point; the vast majority of countries in existence are the product of some recent nationalist movement. But the only one of those terms in common use is the one for Jews.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:42 PM on August 6, 2014


Joe, I hate the word "Zionism" because to me it always has an antisemitic ring to it unless used by a Jewish speaker, and I will try to avoid using it myself altogether, but I think the point was that the word Zionism used in English comes primarily from Jewish English writers and speakers. I think if the Jewish community were to come out and say, please don't use "Zionism" use "Israeli Nationalism" instead, people would stop using it.
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:47 PM on August 6, 2014 [4 favorites]


OK, I did what you said and googled it. Then I got a (n English) wikipedia entry, some dictionary definitions and some French-language articles.

When I clicked on the 'News' tab, I got some Anglophone and some Francophone news articles.

Then I got confused as to how this was proving that it is okay for Israel to bomb the shit out of Gaza and I came back here.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:49 PM on August 6, 2014 [5 favorites]


Also, what Golden Eternity said -- if Jewish people were complaining about Gentiles using the word 'Zionism', I would stop using it on the general principle that one should use the words preferred by a group to describe them. Obviously the word 'Zionist' has a negative connotation if said with a sneer, or combined with some other anti-Semitic phrase or stereotype. But I'm not aware of anyone in this thread who has done so, and I would venture that the majority of people who are critical of Israel's actions in Gaza are in general agreement with the tenets of Zionism insofar as they involve a safe, democratic and peaceful Jewish homeland in the area of the former British Mandate of Palestine.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:56 PM on August 6, 2014


Israel offers Gaza truce extension but Hamas rejection reported
Israel has offered to extend a three-day ceasefire in Gaza which began on Tuesday after nearly a month of conflict, Israeli officials say.

However, unconfirmed reports on social media suggest the militant Hamas movement, which controls Gaza, has not agreed to the extension.

Egypt has been mediating in indirect Israeli-Palestinian talks.

More than 1,800 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and 67 Israelis, mainly soldiers, have died in the conflict.
posted by rosswald at 3:06 PM on August 6, 2014


I'm confused as to what the point of even making this comparison is, other than to expand the parameters of the conversation to a point at which it's utterly meaningless and covers so much land as to be impossible to fight on all fronts.

You perpetually add new points and comparisons for people to fight on, that are away from the main discussion.

I can't escape the feeling that you are perpetually trying to derail this conversation into something angry and irrational, so that you can either declare victory over the masses rolling in the slop or simply prevent reasonable discourse from happening.

I mean, i know we're supposed to assume good faith and stuff, but i feel like you've burned that candle to the hilt at this point.
I don't believe this in my head, but as I read more and more of this thread my gut is becoming more and more insistent upon telling me that he's a Hamas plant who is charged with the mission of making actual supporters of the Israeli government look bad.
posted by Flunkie at 3:34 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


Well, take a look at the article above: "a symptom of the effects of Zionism on academic freedom ...." The article says that an academic search committee apparently (allegedly?) rescinded an offer because of what was described as the applicant's "loathsome and foul-mouthed presence in social media". The thing is, the applicant's comments were made with respect to Israel and its supporters, so the committee's decision is described as the effects of Zionism.

Let's suppose that the word "Zionism" had disappeared with the formation of the State of Israel, just as the terms for Pakistani or Zimbabwean nationalism presumably did. Would anyone, with a straight face, say that this search committee had changed its mind because of "Israeli nationalism"? No; they'd have either conceded that the professor's vituperative language showed that he was an inappropriate choice, or they'd have muttered something about Jews. I think this would be a better state of affairs: don't let people hide their racism behind a terminological figleaf.

Incidentally, I've seen the same argument made with respect to the term "Anti-Semitism". That term was meant to distinguish between common Judenhass (hatred of Jews) and an academic stance against a "Jewish influence" in culture and society. Nowadays we can look back and say that this was a false distinction; that only a bigot would even think of creating such a distinction. The same may one day happen to uses of the word "Zionism" in contexts other than restricted and technical ones.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:35 PM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


tivalasvegas wrote: I would venture that the majority of people who are critical of Israel's actions in Gaza are in general agreement with the tenets of Zionism insofar as they involve a safe, democratic and peaceful Jewish homeland in the area of the former British Mandate of Palestine.

You're probably right about people generally, but I don't think this is true of activists. The standard chant at "pro-Palestinian" marches is "from the river to the see, Palestine will be free". That chant explicitly leaves no room for Israel. The same goes for their banners, which show the entire western portion of the British mandate for Palestine.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:45 PM on August 6, 2014


they'd have either conceded that the professor's vituperative language showed that he was an inappropriate choice

I doubt that the use of vituperative language on social media used against, let's say, ultra-nationalism in the US or Russia would result in him losing his job. If that were the case a significant percentage of academia would be looking for work.
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:46 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


I never claimed, nor do I believe, that anti-Semitism, or eliminationist rhetoric toward Israelis, doesn't exist. Nor do I believe it is right.

Is there any possible criticism of the Israeli government's actions toward Palestinians that you can identify as legitimate? Is any opposition to Israeli policy always and everywhere anti-Semitic in origin and erroneous on its face? The mind boggles.

We can argue history and semantics till we're blue in the face; but when we look up, Palestinians are dying in Gaza, Israelis are running for bomb shelters, and the prospects for any kind of peace are slipping away.

How do you suggest the Israeli government secure a durable peace, if not by dealing honestly and in good faith with the Palestinians -- including by taking at least some steps to ease the siege and end the ongoing settlement of the West Bank? The only other conceivable route, as I've said before, is the outright elimination of the Palestinian people, which is probably not possible and if it were it would even more obviously be genocide.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:07 PM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


I would venture that the majority of people who are critical of Israel's actions in Gaza are in general agreement with the tenets of Zionism insofar as they involve a safe, democratic and peaceful Jewish homeland in the area of the former British Mandate of Palestine.

Not me. IIRC, Herzl's premise was, "If there were no Jews in Europe, there wouldn't be anti-semitism". Quaint and archaic, and wrong.

And everything flowing from it is tainted with wrongness. Witness now, where the biggest fear any Israeli has is of a Gentile with a vote...

One might almost conclude that G-d is really, really pissed off, what with the Messiah not returning to lead us back to the Promised Land yet...
posted by mikelieman at 4:27 PM on August 6, 2014


tivalasvegas-

good luck on getting an answer. 1800 Palestinians are dead. 67 Israelis are dead. That is all hunky dory to the apologists and enablers of mass murder. Since outright arguing that 1800 Palestinian dead are a good thing would cause their mask of normalcy to slip, and betray their hatred for the Palestinian people, its much better to distract people with semantics and nit picking.

Its also an abject lesson of the perils of loving a state.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:23 PM on August 6, 2014


I avoid using the word Zionist, as a rule. As a word, it seems semantically loaded, and given my vocal and frequent issues with Israeli political decisions, I have always been afraid that it would sound anti-Semitic, which is not, nor has ever been, my intent.

It seems to me that the word itself has undergone a significant change in memetic weight. In the early days of the internet, the only people who really used the term Zionist were people who could then talk with some enthusiasm about the Protocols of the Elders thereof. Which is to say, lunatics.

However, I frequently see it used now, by Jews themselves, so I'm willing to concede that my initial impression of the semantic load was erroneous. All that said, it's still a word that tweaks my radar when I read/hear it, because I have to suddenly decide if the person using it is a neonazi or not.
posted by dejah420 at 5:25 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


Is there any possible criticism of the Israeli government's actions toward Palestinians that you can identify as legitimate?

I don't like joining in when I perceive that so many unfair attacks are already being made, but in other contexts, sure. Lots of criticisms! In fact they're probably the same ones as people here are making - more temperate maybe, but they'd have a similar basis.

Is any opposition to Israeli policy always and everywhere anti-Semitic in origin and erroneous on its face?

No, of course not. In my experience, however, anti-Semites very frequently dress their views up as being merely critical of Israel. I posted a link to a video of a
"pro-Palestinian" march earlier. They're marching through New York's Diamond District while holding up dollar signs. This is undoubtedly a reference to racist conspiracy theories. Similarly, I frequently see "pro-Palestinian" literature or hear chants that accuse Jews of drinking blood. That's the medieval blood libel, the one repeated by a Hamas spokesman in Justinian's link above.

So the way I feel is, there's plenty of criticism of Israel out there already. I have nothing to add to the conversation. And even if I had something to say, I'm not going to join a movement that is poisoned by the presence of anti-Semitism. But how about you? What demands would you make of the Palestinians? Do you think that Hamas leaders should be charged with war crimes - specifically which leaders, and which crimes? How about surrounding countries: what responsibility do they have? Because I see a lot of specific criticisms of Israel, but no specific criticisms or expectations of Hamas or Palestinians generally. You're complaining that I'm one-sided, and I admit it; I feel I have reason to be. But this is a really polarised debate: everyone here is on one side or another, even yourself.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:27 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


There is a lot more criticism of Israel here for a number of reasons:

a) 1800 vs 67
b) All US taxpayers fund Israel's wars
c) Israel is a state
d) Hamas are not leaders of a state
e) Israel is a democracy
f) Israel kills many many more civilians than Hamas does
g) Everyone already knows that Hamas is evil
h) Israel is a nuclear power. Hamas controls an open air prison called Gaza
f) related to H but huge fucking power disparity between Hamas and Israel
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:36 PM on August 6, 2014 [11 favorites]


But how about you? What demands would you make of the Palestinians? Do you think that Hamas leaders should be charged with war crimes - specifically which leaders, and which crimes? How about surrounding countries: what responsibility do they have?

I think there should be an international, neutral investigation led by the UN. In an ideal world, Hamas would immediately stop firing rockets into Israel as it is clearly a war crime, the indiscriminate and intentional targeting of civilians. I'm not sure which surrounding countries you're referring to or how you think they are being let off the hook by the international community.

However, even if Hamas does not stop its war crimes, as I noted a ways above the best it can do is kill three civilians after a month of (presumably) giving it all it's got, if that's the limit of their ability to extend deadly force I wouldn't give them more than five minutes on the streets of Chicago.

I repeat my statement: the best chance for Israel to have the peace it longs for is to at least freeze its actions in the West Bank, loosen the blockade in Gaza and sit down with its enemies in good faith. This is not an anti-Israel statement; it's just my assessment of Israel's best option, whether it likes it or not.

You have still not outlined any other plausible way to get to peace.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:53 PM on August 6, 2014 [6 favorites]




Thank God, I hope this means sanity is breaking out.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:26 PM on August 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


Wow.

The reason the Rafah transit from Egypt to Gaza was closed (way back when) was that Hamas wouldn't let the Palestinian Authority (West Bank) staff it, and the Quartet wasn't wiling to let Hamas staff it. Similar disputes applied to other crossings from Gaza. So with that concession alone, Hamas has walked back something that dates to the original split from the rest of the PA.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:34 PM on August 6, 2014


You have still not outlined any other plausible way to get to peace.

Well, that's because I don't know of one.

I know of implausible ways, implausible because they have been tried and failed. I'd like to see a Middle East that's similar to the EU: lots of countries, and nationality isn't very important. I don't know how to get there from here, though.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:38 PM on August 6, 2014


It seems to me the elephant in the room is there is no land for the Palestinians to live on. Gaza is drying up and has just been 40% taken over by Israel, and Israel has basically completely overtaken the West Bank as I understand it. Also, emigration to Israel isn't really slowing down is it? There is a significant chance of a growing European war - which would only accelerate it, I suspect.

ISIS is a bigger threat than people may realize, imo. Jordan and Saudi Arabia may be frightened to death. Egypt may have problems internally as well with the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas. Lebanon is a complete mess; between ISIS and Hezbollah, it is a major threat. I don't know what Ergodan is doing, but he seems to have lost his mind entirely. Winter is coming. And it seems Qatar is on the wrong side of things as well for some reason. Qatar is a big problem as well.

Is there habitable land in Egypt and Jordan that could be part of a Palestinian state? This is crazy, delusional idea I was thinking about even though I'm mostly ignorant of the whole thing: what if Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Israel were to form a NATO-like security alliance and EU-like Economic treaty. Basically, if Jordan or Saudi Arabia is attacked by ISIS, or Iran, Israel is bound to fight with them with all of their military might, including nuclear. I'm sure Jordan and Saudi Arabia would like to have the IDF on their side against ISIS or whoever. The thing that ISIS does, is it could allow "moderate" Arab/Islamic states to fully and openly ally themselves with Israel against a much greater enemy. In return, Egypt and Jordan would give up some land to form a real, sustainable Palestinian state and along with the PLA help keep it and Israel secure. Saudi Arabia would help fund it, and Israel would also pay reparations for relocating Palestinians, give up whatever is left of the West Bank and Gaza, and help reubild. I'm not sure about the other territories.

A good thing about this is it doesn't involve the US. Having the US lead things in the Middle East always seems to turn out badly because A) the US doesn't actually have that much at stake, at least not as much as those actually involved whose entire livelihood may be at stake. B) the US becomes a crutch. People become dependent on the US to take care of their problems, and blame the US when anything goes wrong, and start to feel like they have no power and the US and "the Zionists" or whoever are actually running the show.
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:10 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


What demands would you make of the Palestinians? Do you think that Hamas leaders should be charged with war crimes - specifically which leaders, and which crimes? How about surrounding countries: what responsibility do they have?

i think the palestians need better leadership and to put down their weapons - in fact, i would suggest that they dissolve their government altogether and let israel figure out what to do with the millions of people they control - hamas leaders should be charged with war crimes, certainly regarding the rockets - i haven't got a list of names for you though

the surrounding countries, with the exception of jordan and saudi arabia aren't really functioning countries anymore - lebanon, syria and iraq are falling apart and egypt may follow

it's not impossible that saudi arabia and jordan will fall apart too

the israelis need to understand that it's not just gaza that's on fire - it's the whole damned neighborhood
posted by pyramid termite at 7:36 PM on August 6, 2014


I'm pretty sure Israel knows that better than either of us. I recall that people here were very critical of Israel keeping quiet during the initial uprising in Egypt, and thought that Israel should have taken a public stance on it. I think someone here made a similar argument about intervention in Syria. Israel is tremendously vulnerable to chaos on its borders, which may explain why it has generally avoided killing Hamas' organisational leaders, as opposed to its military and technical ones. For instance, they didn't go into the basement of Shifa hospital, which would otherwise have seemed a logical thing to do. Perhaps they'd rather have an antagonistic bunch of theocrats in Gaza than no government at all.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:45 PM on August 6, 2014


God.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:27 PM on August 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


European states present Gaza rehabilitation plan
Germany, France and Britain present Israel with initiative aiming to rehabilitate Gaza while preventing terror groups form rearming.
...

The document also says that Germany, Britain and France are interested in reaching agreements with Israel and are considering turning these understandings into a binding decision that would be submitted to a vote at the United Nations Security Council.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:39 PM on August 6, 2014


No Russia this time around :-)
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:46 PM on August 6, 2014


God.
posted by Golden Eternity at 1:27 AM on August 7 [+] [!]



In the last couple of weeks I've seen enough pictures of dead and maimed children to last me the rest of my life.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:22 PM on August 6, 2014




I recall that people here were very critical of Israel keeping quiet during the initial uprising in Egypt, and thought that Israel should have taken a public stance on it.

I don't know what you mean by "initial," but Israel was outspoken in its support for Mubarak during the protests, even offering him asylum at one point, perhaps.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:53 AM on August 7, 2014




I don't know how to get there from here, though.

Let's consider the end state to be roughly, "One Nation, with Liberty and Justice For ALL. Inalienable rights, protected by due process of law, and equal protection of the law."

We can't get there with the currently discriminatory government of Israel. They need to reform so that everyone there gets a vote. Everyone -- "From the river to the sea" -- gets equal protection of the law. I don't see the current government ever being able to get there without a truth and reconciliation committee or something.
posted by mikelieman at 3:22 AM on August 7, 2014


Palestine isn't drying up, their water is being stolen.
posted by dejah420 at 6:15 AM on August 7, 2014 [10 favorites]


That graphic's link to EWASH is worth following, too, including more about Israeli destruction of rainwater cisterns on Palestinian land. [pdf]
posted by mediareport at 6:50 AM on August 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


It's important to realize that for as long as there have been written records, Gaza was the breadbasket of the Levant. That didn't stop until the 1967 occupation. The idea that Palestine can't feed itself, were it to have access to all of her own resources is absurd.

Tax records from the 1700s, for example, showed wheat, olives, oranges and lemons in the tons, for just my family's holdings. Granted, they were a soap family, which put them near the apex of landowners, running many sharecropper type arrangements for land they didn't work themselves, but they were nowhere near controlling even 10% of the total crop yield.

Of course all of that land has been taken and given to European immigrants in illegal settlements, but had the Palestinians been given rights to their own land instead of assuming that Europeans under threat superseded the rights of the people that had been there for all of recorded history, then perhaps we wouldn't have had 70+ years of bloody occupation.
posted by dejah420 at 7:08 AM on August 7, 2014 [7 favorites]


Let's consider the end state to be roughly, "One Nation, with Liberty and Justice For ALL. Inalienable rights, protected by due process of law, and equal protection of the law."

We can't get there with the currently discriminatory government of Israel. They need to reform so that everyone there gets a vote. Everyone -- "From the river to the sea" -- gets equal protection of the law


Here's the problem. It is fundamentally impossible for Israel to exist as a refuge for Jews, while giving millions of Palestinians the vote. Israel has 7 million people. Palestine has 4 million. That is an enormous voting block. Within a generation, many of the things most cherished - that make Israel Israel, like the Law of Return for any Jew anywhere - will be gone. The Palestinians have already been vocal about disliking the Law of Return, for example.

So what do you want Israel to do, while still intending that it can remain what it was intended to be, a Jewish state and a refuge for Jews everywhere?
posted by corb at 7:12 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, that's a difficult question, corb: can Israel "remain what it was intended to be" and still be something the rest of the world would recognize as a functioning democracy where the fundamental principle of 'one person, one vote' is honored?

I get that you feel the answer is "no."
posted by mediareport at 7:24 AM on August 7, 2014 [4 favorites]


Golden Eternity: ISIS is a bigger threat than people may realize, imo

Ya, it certainly isn't getting the same level of attention as the Israel-Palestine conflict, but the news isn't great:

Isis seizes Iraq's largest Christian town
Jihadists have taken over Iraq's largest Christian town, Qaraqosh, and the surrounding areas sending tens of thousands of residents fleeing towards autonomous Kurdistan, according to officials and witnesses.

Islamic State (Isis) militants moved in overnight after the withdrawal of Kurdish peshmerga troops, who are stretched thin across several fronts in Iraq, residents said.
Kurdish security chief: Turkey must end support for jihadists
QAMISHLI, Syria — The head of the Kurdish security police in northeast Syria, Ciwan Ibrahim, said that his security forces are willing to cooperate with Turkey if it ends its support for radical jihadist groups.

In an exclusive interview with Al-Monitor, Ibrahim accused Turkey of continuing to support jihadist groups such as the Islamic State (IS), which is in the throes of a major and vicious assault against Kurdish populations in Syria and Iraq.
Dozens killed in Baghdad car bombs
At least 47 people were killed when two car bombs exploded in a Shia neighbourhood in the Iraqi capital, medical and security officials have said.

Police said the first attack on Wednesday evening was a double car bombing in a shopping area of Sadr City in the east of Baghdad.

Late on Wednesday, another car packed with explosives detonated in the nearby neighbourhood of Ur, also predominantly Shia.
40,000 Iraqis stranded on mountain as Isis jihadists threaten death
Tens of thousands of members of one of Iraq's oldest minorities have been stranded on a mountain in the country's north-west, facing slaughter at the hands of jihadists surrounding them below if they flee, or death by dehydration if they stay.

UN groups say at least 40,000 members of the Yazidi sect, many of them women and children, have taken refuge in nine locations on Mount Sinjar, a craggy, mile-high ridge identified in local legend as the final resting place of Noah's ark.
posted by rosswald at 7:34 AM on August 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


mediareport: I get that you feel the answer is "no."

Given mikelieman's "one nation" and "everyone gets a vote" parameters, she's correct. If there's one country holding both Jews and Palestinians, the demographics won't work long-term for the Jews. Absent some seismic shift in attitudes on the part of both groups, the only possibilities are two states, constant war, or, as Israel seems to be pushing for now, systematic elimination of one of the groups.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:34 AM on August 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


Also: ISIS Forces Appear to Capture Iraq’s Largest Dam
ERBIL, Iraq — Sunni militants appeared on Thursday to have captured the Mosul dam, the largest in Iraq, as their advances in the country’s north created an onslaught of refugees and set off fearful rumors in Erbil, the Kurdish regional capital.

An official in the office of Massoud Barzani, the president of the Kurdish regional government, said Thursday afternoon that Kurdish forces, or pesh merga, were still fighting for control of the dam. But several other sources, including residents of the area and a Kurdish security official, said it had already been captured by the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, a potentially catastrophic development for Iraq’s civilian population.
posted by rosswald at 7:39 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


corb: "Within a generation, many of the things most cherished - that make Israel Israel, like the Law of Return for any Jew anywhere"

I dunno man, can you tell me why the Law of Return says that a Russian, with no ties to the land or the ethnicity of the Levant, has the right of return, but people like me, who can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that my people were there for hundreds and hundreds of years, cannot? And for the record, I have Jewish ancestors too. My people were equal opportunity breeders; we've got Jews, Persians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, a few Africans; and another set of greatgrandparents were Polish Jews that escaped the pogroms, but under the Law of Return, I'm not "Jewish-enough". Or mostly, I'm "too Arabic". (I have a Dutch name, and look more White Middle Class Mom than I do any particular ethnicity. Here in Texas most folks assume I'm Hispanic, actually.)

Why should Israel be allowed to have apartheid-like rules about citizenship and "rights of return"? Why shouldn't the residents have equal votes. Your logic is the same logic that was used in Jim Crow laws, because the white folks were worried about what would happen when black folks could actually change things by voting. Why should we support a rich, white, superclass that insists on killing, imprisoning, starving, and mistreating an entire race of people that have better tans?

Racism is a huge elephant in the room when it comes to Israel, and not just because everyone lives in fear of being destroyed because they said something perceived as anti-Semitic, but because if the Palestinians looked more like Idaho farmers, this constant "mowing the grass" incursions by Israel would not be tolerated by the rest of the West. Just as massacres happen with regularity in Africa without being noticed by the Western media. If Palestine were out where the Bedouins are, too far away from luxury hotels and room service for the media to cover it, this massacre would have gone completely unnoticed and unremarked.
posted by dejah420 at 7:41 AM on August 7, 2014 [28 favorites]


So what do you want Israel to do, while still intending that it can remain what it was intended to be, a Jewish state and a refuge for Jews everywhere?

As an Jewish American, the idea of a government that discriminatory is antithetical to everything I believe in.

Perhaps I must just disagree with the core premise. That a discriminatory nation of Jews provides any real benefit. Again, we come back to the failure of Herzl's outdated and disproven vision, that an europe without Jews wouldn't have anti-Semitism.

With all the bad-faith baggage, *I* certainly don't consider it any sort of refuge, in fact, the actions of the Government of Israel materially increase my own risk by giving morons case-studies in reasons to hate me.
posted by mikelieman at 7:47 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


What's absolutely bonkers is that I, gentile, Irish, white American born and raised in NJ, will have more of a right to live in Jerusalem than someone whose family has lived there for two millenia, because next month I'm marrying a woman whose grandfather is Ashkenazi.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:48 AM on August 7, 2014 [11 favorites]


(In)discriminate language on Gaza
Though Marc Lynch recently lamented that political scientists are having “the same arguments in the same terms” when it comes to Israel-Palestine, other discourses have evolved. We have spent the weeks since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge against Gaza tracing shifts in the employment of three related concepts: The distinction between combatants and noncombatants; the difference between discriminate and indiscriminate violence; and genocide. All of these terms have been deployed for years in human rights and activist circles, as well as in the daily lives of millions of Palestinians and Israelis. What is new is the increasingly commonplace usage of these terms in media, political, academic and lay discourse.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:55 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


So what do you want Israel to do?

If the two-state solution is dead, then sanctioned apartheid. A fully legalized steerage class citizenship would be better than the reality of what we are seeing: the most moral ethnic cleansing the world will ever see. The problem is you're orcing victims to live under the rule of their abusers and murderers, but it would allow for the international community to come into Israel to protect Palestinians and advocate for them. The hope is that at some point in the future a human rights movement could achieve enough strength in Israel to gain equal rights for all Palestinians. Jewish contributions to humanism are enormous and that should give us hope. But judging by the racism and fascist hatred fueling Israel today, it's hard to see how humanism could win over. It could take many centuries. Sadly, Israel is not importing badly needed humanism from Russia and Eastern Europe, but the worst forms of racist, ethnic hatred.

Left out: Israel’s liberals find themselves isolated and lacking influence and power

Interesting. Israel checked every day with al-Sisi to make sure he was "comfortable" with the killing: Gaza Tension Stoked by Unlikely Alliance Between Israel and Egypt
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:08 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


[Gaza] Industry in Ashes and Gaza Reeling From Economic Toll:

"For nearly four decades, Al Awda Co. has stocked Gaza’s shelves with sweets and snacks, starting as a humble refugee-camp bakery and growing into a 180,000-square-foot factory with 600 workers.

On Wednesday, all that was left was a faint whiff of chocolate amid the sour smell of a fire that burned for three days."

NYT
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:11 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


Perhaps I must just disagree with the core premise. That a discriminatory nation of Jews provides any real benefit.

Then you do not recognize the right of Israel to exist. That's fine as a premise - lots of people have it - but you need to be clear about it. Because the right of Israel to exist is the right of Israel to exist as Israel. Israel is not just a random democracy in the Middle East that happens to have a lot of Jews. Israel is an explicitly Jewish nation, with laws and accomodations specifically for Jews, by design.

And honestly, all the protests about it being a discriminatory state ring hollow when there are still nations where women aren't allowed to drive, with precisely zero public outcry, and there are many, many nations with official state religions.
posted by corb at 8:16 AM on August 7, 2014


next month I'm marrying a woman whose grandfather is Ashkenazi.

Mazel
posted by Trochanter at 8:22 AM on August 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


And honestly, all the protests about it being a discriminatory state ring hollow when there are still nations where women aren't allowed to drive, with precisely zero public outcry, and there are many, many nations with official state religions.

excuse me? There is zero public outry against Saudi Arabia's treatment of women? Where do you come up with this bullshit?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:24 AM on August 7, 2014 [10 favorites]


Trochanter- bevakasha!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:25 AM on August 7, 2014


Gaza Tension Stoked by Unlikely Alliance Between Israel and Egypt
posted by Golden Eternity


Another story not getting much traction in the international press is the counter-insurgency operations Egypt is conducting in the Sinai. Allegedly these militants also have links to groups in Gaza like Hamas and IJ.

Egypt Sinai insurgency - casualties
posted by rosswald at 8:28 AM on August 7, 2014


There is zero public outry against Saudi Arabia's treatment of women? Where do you come up with this bullshit?

I'm sorry, I should say it rounds to zero when compared to the amount of ink and virtual ink spent talking about Israel.
posted by corb at 8:29 AM on August 7, 2014


Last I checked, we weren't giving the Saudis 8.5 million dollars a day.
posted by dejah420 at 8:33 AM on August 7, 2014 [7 favorites]


List of the UN resolutions concerning Israel and Palestine
As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance)
posted by rosswald at 8:39 AM on August 7, 2014


А у вас негров линчуют
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:39 AM on August 7, 2014 [4 favorites]


Did Saudi Arabia kill 1800 people in the past couple weeks? Have academics lost their jobs for speaking out against Saudi Arabia? Is Saudi Arabia using my tax money to bomb civilians? Is Saudi Arabia a democracy? Does Saudi Arabia claim they are free and secular and respect human rights in order to gain legitimacy and then use that legitimacy to kill civilians? Does Saudi Arabia police an open air prison?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:39 AM on August 7, 2014 [9 favorites]


>small>А у вас негров линчуют
posted by Golden Eternity

Ridiculous. How is pointing out that various international legal organizations are influenced more by politics than fairly applying the law a deflection?
posted by rosswald at 8:46 AM on August 7, 2014


Haaretz, today:

IDF orders West Bank village land seized for settler road
The road, like the nearby Amona outpost, was constructed without a permit.


The Israel Defense Forces has issued an expropriation order for land in the West Bank village of Ein Yabrud, so that settlers from the nearby Amona outpost can continue using a road that crosses the land. The 6.4-dunam (slightly over an acre) plot is owned by Palestinians. The road, like Amona itself, was built without a permit...

The state said it would try to stop the illegal roadwork, and the cabinet secretary instructed a team of transportation experts to find a legal solution to the problem of access to Amona, itself an unauthorized outpost that was built illegally on private Palestinian land. The experts were unable to provide such a solution, given the absence of either land rights or a zoning plan in the relevant area...

Though expropriation orders are supposed to be used only for security purposes, at one time, settlements were routinely built on land expropriated through such orders. But in 1979, the High Court ruled this practice illegal, and the state complied. That makes the expropriation order issued for Amona’s benefit extremely unusual.

posted by mediareport at 8:48 AM on August 7, 2014 [3 favorites]


Rosswald, that comment was in response to the Saudi Arabia women's rights derail, not your UN comment.

The UN is unduly obsessed with Israel, but there are more reasons for it than antisemitism, imo. Israel loves to spite the UN, even killing their aid workers. Israel is a symbol of colonialism and Western imperialism. etc.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:53 AM on August 7, 2014


Did Saudi Arabia kill 1800 people in the past couple weeks?

Despite the Saudis sending their troops into Bahrain to crush a protest/revolution and also playing no small role in the Syria/Iraq civil war (10s of thousands dead, close to a million refugees) the UN and its various organs hasn't said a peep to SA.
posted by rosswald at 8:54 AM on August 7, 2014


Is Saudi Arabia a democracy?

I also would like to say that I have no clue how this is a thing. Can China and the USA commit the exact same action, but only have the USA being guilty of a war-crime because they are a democracy and China isn't?
posted by rosswald at 8:57 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


Rosswald, that comment was in response to the Saudi Arabia women's rights derail, not your UN comment.

Ah, apologies.
posted by rosswald at 8:58 AM on August 7, 2014


I'd argue that Saudi Arabia has a stronger vise-grip on American policy, but Israel is more of a true ally, whereas SA falls into the economic frienemy category, so it doesn't do us much good to criticize them, whereas American influence has, in the past, helped bring about tangible progress toward peace, albeit progress that has since been squandered by the two parties.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:06 AM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


One option for the ME is to follow Africa's lead: African leaders vote to give themselves immunity from war crimes
posted by rosswald at 9:06 AM on August 7, 2014


I also would like to say that I have no clue how this is a thing. Can China and the USA commit the exact same action, but only have the USA being guilty of a war-crime because they are a democracy and China isn't?

No, but democracies hold themselves to higher standards and their foreign policy can be swayed more easily by outside pressure.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:08 AM on August 7, 2014


I just got this NYT alert which would seem relevant: Obama Weighs Military Strikes to Aid Trapped Iraqis, Officials Say

No, but democracies hold themselves to higher standards and their foreign policy can be swayed more easily by outside pressure.

IMO, I am not sure if the "low hanging fruit" standard is a great way to decide how to apply international law. For it to have any credibility, the UN etc. should hold everyone to the same standard and be equally vocal about various transgressions.
posted by rosswald at 9:15 AM on August 7, 2014


What is he waiting for?
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:29 AM on August 7, 2014




Then you do not recognize the right of Israel to exist

That's a long way to go from my instance of inalienable rights, due process of law, and equal protection of law for everyone without regard to ethnicity or religion.

Can you explain, step-by-step, how the advocacy of the American values which directly benefit my security and happiness as a Jew living in the diaspora, to your assertion that I don't believe that the state of Israel shouldn't exist?
posted by mikelieman at 9:36 AM on August 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


Israel is not just a random democracy in the Middle East that happens to have a lot of Jews.

I would suggest, given my advocacy of inalienable rights, that Israel isn't a democracy at all.

Israel is an explicitly Jewish nation, with laws and accomodations specifically for Jews, by design.

I think the separation of church and state is a wonderful thing. Look at how peacefully Jews and Arabs live in the US, for example, without different classes of citizenship.

And honestly, all the protests about it being a discriminatory state ring hollow when there are still nations where women aren't allowed to drive, with precisely zero public outcry, and there are many, many nations with official state religions.

I think we're above Tu quoque derails, don't you?
posted by mikelieman at 9:41 AM on August 7, 2014 [3 favorites]




Twitter @LovedayM: Yazidis from Mount Sinjar are being evacuated into Syrian territory.
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:12 AM on August 7, 2014


I think the separation of church and state is a wonderful thing. Look at how peacefully Jews and Arabs live in the US, for example, without different classes of citizenship.

Sure! I even agree with you! I think it's great and dandy! I choose to live in a pluralistic democracy! But that doesn't mean that is every nation's raison d'être, nor, necessarily, should it be. It's certainly not Israel's. And maybe that's not your deal, as a diaspora Jew. Not every Jew is or has been a Zionist. But your wishes are not theirs.

A lot of people hold "secular Democracy" up as the shining standard of human rights, while forgetting that throughout history, "secular democracies" have made some pretty shit-poor choices, particularly about minorities, including indulging in genocide.
posted by corb at 11:42 AM on August 7, 2014


secular democracies are the shining standard of human rights. They have respected human rights better than any other form of government known to man.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:05 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


corb: "Then you do not recognize the right of Israel to exist. "

No, I'm asking why, because someone entered the earth from the womb of a Jewish mother, they have more rights than I do. What special thing do I not have? I have the same genes as Levant Jews. It's not genetics. Plenty of Israeli Jews are not faithful, or Orthodox or even religious, so it's not faith.

So, why are we not worthy of letting the soil of our ancestors fall through our fingers as we shepherd our lambs, and prune our olives? How is it that the settlers can take our trees and our water and our land, and call us the interlopers?

If Israel wants to claim that any Jew, anywhere in the world, has more right to my grandfather's properties than I do, simply because they are Jewish, then I don't believe my taxes should go to support them. I don't believe my consumer dollars should support them. I believe that I should be able to legally call for boycotts against them, and I should be able to do all of those things without being accused of anti-semitism. I'm not against Jews. I'm against supporting any government that holds apartheid beliefs, and the Israeli government has proven over and over again that they have no intention of ever treating the Arabs as equals.

But that doesn't mean I don't think Israel as theocracy has a right to exist. I just think it should exist without my help or my money. If they want to be Iran, they can be Iran. Go back to the original borders and be as theocratic as they wanna be. But they have to give back all the settlements, all the land, and quit terrorizing the neighbors in the hopes they'll move.

Or, they can join the 21st Century, realize that their hairy thunderer isn't any more powerful than all the other hairy thunderers, and get on with the businesses of being a melting pot, now that Jews aren't in peril like they were when the territory was initially conceived.
posted by dejah420 at 1:03 PM on August 7, 2014 [17 favorites]


If they want to be Iran, they can be Iran. Go back to the original borders and be as theocratic as they wanna be. But they have to give back all the settlements, all the land, and quit terrorizing the neighbors in the hopes they'll move.

Why? A simple question. Israel took control of the land in a defensive war. Israel did not choose to go to war in 1967. Israel was warred upon, and managed to do better than anyone else expected. Thus, by the law of war, these areas are theirs at least equally as much as any others. Borders shift when wars happen. Why should they have to give up the land in order to be a theocracy? Why should people be removed from settlements simply because they are Jewish?

How is it that the settlers can take our trees and our water and our land, and call us the interlopers?

I, too, am an exile of sorts. My family's land and home was seized by Sandinistas who felt they had a better right to it. They ripped up the stones of the walkways from the earth and smashed and broke everything of beauty. Even so, they still took it. They will not give it back. Where is the outcry? Where are the people demanding my right to return peacefully to the property I should have inherited? Or the Cuban right to return?

I do not think that you are an antisemite for wanting your home and the home of your grandfather back. You have every right to fight, in every way you know how, for the home and rights that you want. But the people who have not experienced this loss, who claim that they are only expressing noble high ideals about people never being forced off their homes, who claim they only object to the idea of settlements or seizure and redistribution of land - those people, I think, have some antisemitism within them. Or why would they not call for the return of the other lands and homes seized? Why only Israel?
posted by corb at 1:16 PM on August 7, 2014


Crooked Timber has more on the Steven Salaita "hirefire", including the news that Glenn Greenwald is on the case, which is never a good sign if you're on the other side of that case.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:19 PM on August 7, 2014


And honestly, all the protests about it being a discriminatory state ring hollow when there are still nations where women aren't allowed to drive, with precisely zero public outcry, and there are many, many nations with official state religions.

Is there a name for this sort of "finish your dinner because there's starving children in Africa" argument? Because it's got to be some kind of fallacy.

"You're not allowed to criticize this really shitty thing because things I think are shittier happen elsewhere" is a bs argument. And so is accusing people of not criticizing those things, when they plainly and demonstrably do.

And this is ignoring the fact that even bringing that stuff up is a really crappy attempt at moving the goalposts and derailing the discussion into some way wider tiresome dorm room Oppression Olympics thing.
posted by emptythought at 1:24 PM on August 7, 2014 [4 favorites]


Corb,

Do us all a favor and quit throwing around accusations of antisemitism and find us a single situation in the world that is analogous to the Israel treatment of the Palestinians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:28 PM on August 7, 2014 [5 favorites]


But the people who have not experienced this loss, who claim that they are only expressing noble high ideals about people never being forced off their homes, who claim they only object to the idea of settlements or seizure and redistribution of land - those people, I think, have some antisemitism within them.

And I'm a racist because I'm white but I fought back against Richard Sander's discriminatory attacks on holistic (affirmative action) admission policies in the University of California system. I'm also an anti-male bigot because I'm male but I think women should get paid family leave.
posted by faux ami at 1:32 PM on August 7, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oh, and it's also worth noting that "you're only allowed to criticize $SHITTYTHING if you were directly harmed" is also a bs argument.

That's literally the argument people use to call others "white knights" for defending women who are harassed online. It's like, one of the crappiest arguments out there.

Quit making this thread some kind of bingo of crappy arguments. This is so far all stuff that should be on some derailing for dummies type site, if it isn't already.
posted by emptythought at 1:40 PM on August 7, 2014 [5 favorites]


The majority of Mandate Palestine is now Jordan - a country not known for its fair treatment of Palestinians.
posted by rosswald at 1:42 PM on August 7, 2014


How many have they slaughtered in the last month, then?
posted by Grangousier at 1:43 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


To be fair to Jordan, they had an influx of millions of displaced people. The vast majority of whom had only farming skills. Look how we freaked the hell out when 30,000 Hispanic kids showed up at our borders.

The British handed off a lot of the Palestine problem and people when they created Israel and gave it to displaced Europeans but then provided virtually no help with infrastructure or aid. I can talk at some length about Jordan and Palestinian situation, but this isn't the thread for that.
posted by dejah420 at 1:51 PM on August 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


Wikipedia: Xinjiang conflict
an ongoing separatist struggle in the People's Republic of China (PRC) far-west province of Xinjiang. A group of Uyghur separatists claim that the region, which they refer to as East Turkestan, is not a part of China, but that the Soviet supported Second East Turkestan Republic was invaded by the PRC in 1949 and has since been under Chinese occupation. The separatist movement is led by Turkic Islamist militant organizations, most notably the East Turkestan independence movement, against the national government in Beijing.
posted by rosswald at 1:55 PM on August 7, 2014


and get on with the businesses of being a melting pot, now that Jews aren't in peril like they were when the territory was initially conceived.

I agree with a lot of what you said but I don't think it's necessarily irrational or not understandable that people who have been in peril for 2000 years might not suddenly decide things are super great for them after 50 years of relative non-peril.
posted by Justinian at 2:03 PM on August 7, 2014


In a very narrow sense, it's true that people who have direct experience being harmed by something have a unique perspective that others are unlikely to understand unless they shared that experience, but trying to extend that logic to make a larger statement that anyone who hasn't had those experiences can't comment on the situation at all or they're being anti-Semitic is a reprehensible attempt to shut down conversation instead of having an honest debate.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:04 PM on August 7, 2014 [3 favorites]


Mod note: folks, this is not the thread to bring in unrelated topics. It's long and contentious enough as it is.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 2:47 PM on August 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


I can talk at some length about Jordan and Palestinian situation, but this isn't the thread for that.

I think it is relevant to the thread and would like to hear it. Certainly a lot of time here has been spent less constructively.

Why Gaza will prove to be a game-changing event
posted by Golden Eternity at 3:48 PM on August 7, 2014 [4 favorites]


It might be worth it's own thread? This one won't be open much longer regardless.
posted by ODiV at 3:52 PM on August 7, 2014


Dejah420 asked: I'm asking why, because someone entered the earth from the womb of a Jewish mother, they have more rights than I do.

This is like asking why women, but not men, have access to women-only events; or why the University of Michigan can use race as "a predominant factor" in admissions to law school. They're very tightly focused instances of preferential treatment for people generally discriminated against. The discrimination against Jews was (and remains) so vast, and the expression of that discrimination so violent, that it is necessary to have a country where Jews are almost guaranteed admission. So yes, Jews have a single, very focused right - they and their relatives can migrate to Israel relatively easily. I wish that circumstances were such that they didn't need this.

Incidentally, many countries grant similar rights with far less justification. I think my kids are actually entitled to the citizenship of at least four, possibly as many as seven different countries; and the right to enter and work in at least one other. I don't know the details of your situation, but if you're complaining about the principle of Israel's migration law you need to be aware that it's actually pretty common.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:58 PM on August 7, 2014


Media Suddenly Discover Hamas War Crimes
[...] On Wednesday, CBS News aired a report by Clarissa Ward on postwar Gaza. She noted that many civilians had lost their homes, including a man who claimed, "There is no Hamas here." She then showed viewers the Israeli military's map of Hamas tunnels in the area, and the camera panned across concrete tunnel archways being stored in the alley next door, next to a mosque. Ward noted that CBS had been denied entry to the mosque.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:07 PM on August 7, 2014


What did the IDF leave in the houses they left standing?
posted by dejah420 at 4:12 PM on August 7, 2014


Why Gaza will prove to be a game-changing event

BTW, this may be the best article written on this whole thing so far (imo).
posted by Golden Eternity at 4:18 PM on August 7, 2014


I think the truly game-changing event was the FAA's decision to prevent US planes landing in Tel Aviv's airport. I don't know whether it was a bureaucratic over-reaction or a clumsy White House initiative to pressure Israel, but the implications were huge: if Hamas can close down Israel's main airport then the entire nation is effectively held hostage to their whims. Binyamin Netanyahu subsequently declared that not only Gaza, but any future Palestinian state would need to be demilitarised. I don't know if this is possible even in Gaza; I do know that the Palestinian Authority has rejected this proposal before. That one act may have closed the door to the Two State solution.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:26 PM on August 7, 2014


The discrimination against Jews was (and remains) so vast, and the expression of that discrimination so violent, that it is necessary to have a country where Jews are almost guaranteed admission.

We call it "The United States of America". For instance, my Grandfather came here to escape the meltdown in Poland.

And we do it without apartheid.
posted by mikelieman at 4:49 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


Newsflash: Terrorist Criminals don't obey the law, and don't care about anyone but themselves.

How does posting the same bullshit propaganda move the discussion along?
posted by mikelieman at 4:51 PM on August 7, 2014


How does posting the same bullshit propaganda move the discussion along?

Generally like this.
posted by homunculus at 5:09 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


We call it "The United States of America". For instance, my Grandfather came here to escape the meltdown in Poland.

It's great that your Grandfather was let in. Not every Jewish refugee was so lucky. Take a look at our current "border crisis." Are we letting the child refugees in and welcoming them with open arms? Or are we freaking the fuck out and trying to send them all home to violence and death? I do not have faith in the US to accept large amounts of Jewish refugees if circumstances were such that they had to flee their current homes.

I do however, know that Israel will let them in because they are Jewish, and I think that's a good thing.
posted by Arbac at 5:09 PM on August 7, 2014 [4 favorites]


Israel to declare Gaza 'enemy territory' to avoid payouts to inhabitants
Decision would mean Israel would not be liable for damage incurred to residents of the Strip as a result of Israeli actions during Operation Protective Edge.
posted by Golden Eternity at 5:49 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


This is like asking why women, but not men, have access to women-only events; or why the University of Michigan can use race as "a predominant factor" in admissions to law school.

Yeah, if: 1. Michigan's law school were physically built atop a preexisting university, 2. It had expelled students and professors of the preexisting university, 3. It had admitted students from other states and non-expelled students only, 4. It administered separate but equal facilities for expelled students at the local high school. Then it would be just like that. (Also, if those benefitting from affirmative action were now running U of M.)
posted by faux ami at 5:52 PM on August 7, 2014 [5 favorites]


Michigan's law school were physically built atop a preexisting university

These two "universities" could have coexisted peacefully. Islamic and Judaic studies side by side.
posted by rosswald at 6:02 PM on August 7, 2014


Faux ami: I can see that you basically accept that Jews need a place to go, and that that place is Israel. I'm sure we can find a different occasion to discuss the secondary issue of what injustices occurred as a consequence of that, but it's a very long and contentious discussion that is very unlikely to resolve anything.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:04 PM on August 7, 2014


1. Michigan's law school were physically built atop a preexisting university

preferably in columbus, ohio
posted by pyramid termite at 6:17 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


but seriously, joe, you think the injustices committed are a "secondary issue"? - not to those who suffered those injustices - in fact, you may have noticed that those injustices have caused several wars, one of which we happen to be discussing right now

but i guess if you believe the palestinians are secondary people than their grievances will be "secondary issues"

that was a rather revealing statement you made
posted by pyramid termite at 6:25 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


A secondary issue is a consequent one. Your assertion that I'm calling Palestinians a "secondary people" (which is a phrase I have never before encountered, and Google does not really recognise) is weird and fighty.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:33 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]




Hamas has, in the past, alleged that this sort of thing is done by rogue elements or competing groups. They're probably telling the truth, but if they want a ceasefire they need to make it their problem by identifying and punishing those responsible.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:56 PM on August 7, 2014


Joe, I think the standard definition of secondary issue, unless you are talking about stock shares, is "of minor or lesser importance; subordinate; auxiliary."
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:57 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't think that's the case, but in any event it doesn't lead to the idea of "a secondary people". Things are heated enough without anyone trying to take offense.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:02 PM on August 7, 2014


So Bibi has a choice in how to respond to rockets fired from Gaza? He doesn't have to bomb houses, shelters, schools, hospitals, and power stations?
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:11 PM on August 7, 2014 [1 favorite]




BBC: Two rockets fired from Gaza have hit southern Israel three hours before a three-day ceasefire is due to expire, the Israel Defense Forces say.

The IDF accused "terrorists" of violating the ceasefire.

A spokesman for the military wing of Hamas has meanwhile called on Palestinian negotiators in Cairo to refuse any ceasefire extension unless long-term demands are met.
Not surprised, but still disappointed.
posted by rosswald at 7:36 PM on August 7, 2014


So Bibi has a choice in how to respond to rockets fired from Gaza? He doesn't have to bomb houses, shelters, schools, hospitals, and power stations?

Surely Hamas has a choice where to fire from: it doesn't need to fire from schools etc., or store missiles there. If you're saying that they always and inevitably will do things like that - which may well be true - then it's a big problem: what happens as the power and sophistication of their weapons increases? At some point they'll have nuclear weapons stored in the basement of Shifa hospital, and dare you to take them out.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:54 PM on August 7, 2014


The Palestinian newspaper Ma'an has recently held off publishing stories about so-called "work accidents", in which Hamas or other fighters die from premature explosions or the like. I suppose this means that Ma'an thinks the war is over: 4 Palestinian fighters killed in accidental explosion east of Jabaliya
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:58 PM on August 7, 2014


At the point that they have, or there is solid evidence that they have, or are close to having, a WMD or even rockets capable of causing much more serious destruction, the situation would change significantly. In the worst case, something close to what Bibi is doing now might be necessary, except with actual targeted strikes and without the wanton mass-punishment of the civilian population resulting in ~500k people left homeless. And I imagine in that case this would be done with the full support of the US, the UN, and the entire world community. It would be great, though, if the civilian population were truly allowed to leave the area with adequate time to do so and facilitated in doing so. This is something that the international community needs to be prepared for, as I imagine it could remain a real possibility for some time.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:19 PM on August 7, 2014


4 Palestinian fighters killed in accidental explosion east of Jabaliya

"Accidental explosion" is a kind of disingenuous way to characterize a misfired rocket...
posted by Justinian at 9:06 PM on August 7, 2014


I think everyone involved knows what it means, just as they know that "metal workshop" is code for a rocket factory.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:14 PM on August 7, 2014


Tricycle theatre refuses to host UK Jewish Film Festival while it has Israeli embassy funding

The Spectator's Nick Cohen explains the egregious nature of the decision: Anti-Semitic double standards: the arts and the Jews

A further comment from Anshel Pfeffer of Haaretz:
A theatrical surrender to anti-Semitism
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:18 PM on August 7, 2014 [3 favorites]


Hamas officials: Gaza truce will not be extended
Two senior Hamas officials told Agence France-Presse that the Palestinian movement will not extend a 72-hour ceasefire in Gaza that expires at 0500 GMT on Friday, accusing Israel of rejecting their demands for a truce.
...

The Hamas senior official told The Associated Press that the group’s representatives were told by Egyptian mediators that Israel had rejected Hamas’ conditions for an extension - an agreement in principle to open Gaza’s borders and allow for a rebuilding of the strip.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:11 PM on August 7, 2014


That may be what Hamas says, but it looks as though Egyptian cooperation may be the sticking point:

Egypt-Hamas animosity casts pall over ceasefire hopes
With the opening of the Rafah crossing off the table in Cairo, the rulers of Gaza may be loath to enter a long-term truce
One key Hamas demand has always been “the opening of crossings,” often used as shorthand for the permanent opening of the Rafah border crossing with Egypt. Rafah, the sole portal from Gaza to the Arab world, has remained largely shuttered since the ouster of Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood president Mohammed Morsi in July 2013. The closure, as well as the chaos and confusion in the terminal during the few erratic hours when it is open, serve as a source of unending anguish for many in Gaza seeking medical treatment, study, or travel abroad.

The Rafah crossing was administered by Israel until the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005, when it was handed over to the Palestinian Authority. In June 2007 Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, ousting the PA from the crossing and prompting EU monitors on location to retreat. On Thursday, the EU proposed reactivating its EUBAM supervision force at Rafah and permanently opening the crossing.
Hamas really wants a way for its personnel to enter and exit the Gaza strip without passing through Israel. But that depends on Egypt's cooperation, and Egypt seems to be very reluctant to allow Palestinians to enter through its territory.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:42 PM on August 7, 2014


Breaking: Quiet shattered, Hamas resumes firing rockets as cease-fire ends
After 72 hours of relative quiet, the bilateral cease-fire ends without an extension deal; rocket fire from Gaza resumes with barrage on southern Israel from Gaza.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:16 PM on August 7, 2014


Al Jazeera reports that the Israeli negotiation team left Cairo before the ceasefire ended.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:09 AM on August 8, 2014


Surely Hamas has a choice where to fire from:

Is there any way to illustrate the absurdity of expecting a gang of terrorist criminals to act in good faith?
posted by mikelieman at 3:31 AM on August 8, 2014




IMEMC: Jordanian Family: “Israel Tortured Our Son To Death” (snatching him at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in Tel Aviv)

Electronic Intifada: Zapatistas condemn Israel’s "war of extermination" against Palestinians

HuffPo: Why The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Should Matter To Black Americans (video debate)

RT has a longer interview with Norman Finkelstein than the Democracy Now one

The Real News has an interview with Max Blumenthal about growing incitement to genocide against Palestinians in Israel

Obama's recent speech advocating an end to the Gaza bombing authorizing airstrikes in Iraq: "when many thousands of innocent civilians are faced with the danger of being wiped out, and we have the capacity to do something about it, we will take action. That is our responsibility as Americans. That’s a hallmark of American leadership."
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:08 AM on August 8, 2014 [5 favorites]


Jesus Christ, those last links are horrifying Noisy Pink Bubbles.

How many innocent Palestinians will have to be killed before Israel's supporters say enough is enough? 3000? 4000? 10000? All of them?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:02 AM on August 8, 2014


I listened to obama's speech last night. In amazement. Mouth open at the sheer hypocrisy that it's necessary to scramble jets to save Iraqi Christians from Islamic fundamentalists, but Palestine? Meh, fuck those people, amirite?

I'm not saying we shouldn't have sent resources to the trapped Iraqis, but his flowery rhetoric was such bullshit. Save innocent civilians. Yeah. That's a core American value. Unless the fundamentalists doing the attacking are Israeli, in which case, those innocent civilians deserve it.
posted by dejah420 at 7:02 AM on August 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think the truly game-changing event was the FAA's decision to prevent US planes landing in Tel Aviv's airport....That one act may have closed the door to the Two State solution.

Wow, there's been some serious hyperbole in this thread, but that's in the top three for sure. What long ago "closed the door to the Two State solution" is the political power of far right fundamentalists in Israel who claim a god-given right to all of Judea and Samaria. To suggest that the FAA's temporary ban, an attempt at a poke at Netanyahu that quickly, miserably, obviously failed, is the "one act" that may have closed the door to a solution the most powerful political lobby in Israel rejected years ago is an emotional, loaded, delusional comment.
posted by mediareport at 7:15 AM on August 8, 2014 [8 favorites]


dejah420, I don't see how much leverage Obama has in Israel. Yes, we support Israel financially and militarily, but Bibi knows Congress would have to get involved in changing that, and we know that's not going to happen. We saw what happened to Kerry as he tried to broker something. The simple and very sad fact is that it's easier for the chief executive in the U.S. to drop bombs somewhere than to engage in any kind of constructive diplomacy.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:15 AM on August 8, 2014




BBC: Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures
In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures - their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to to revision.

But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.
posted by rosswald at 7:42 AM on August 8, 2014


It's a fucked situation for Obama. For him to oppose Israel he needs a partner on the other side to deal with. Qatar is the wrong partner and Saudi Arabia is too far removed. It has to be Egypt and they're too busy celebrating the massacre and abject misery in Gaza with Israel.

I mean Obama could try to cut all aid to Israel, but that would be political suicide not just for him but the entire Democratic party.

If Egypt won't reopen the Rafah crossing, could the seaport be rebuilt and run by an international group, perhaps?

IMEMC: Jordanian Family: “Israel Tortured Our Son To Death” (snatching him at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in Tel Aviv)

Oh my God!!!!
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:48 AM on August 8, 2014


IDF soldier: Artillery fire in Gaza is like Russian roulette
During Operation Protective Edge the IDF has shot thousands of artillery shells into Gaza, the impact location of which are uncontrollable. As an ex-combat soldier in the artillery corps, I feel obligated to explain how artillery fire on a civilian population can be both dangerous and lethal.
...

As a result of the inaccuracy of this weapon, the safety ranges used during war require us to aim at least 250 meters away from our troops while they are behind cover. ...

At the time, firing guidelines (in Gaza) were changed so that the safety distance from Palestinian houses was reduced from 300 meters to 100 meters. Shortly thereafter, a shell hit the house of the Ghaben family in Beit Lahiya, killing 9-year-old Hadil and injuring 12 of her family members. Following the incident and several others related to artillery fire, human rights organizations appealed to the Israeli High Court to stop this lethal practice. In response, Israel stated that artillery fire would no longer be used in the Gaza Strip.

Only three years later, in Operation Cast Lead, artillery fire was used once again, even more extensively than before. Nowadays, since the launch of Operation Protective Edge, the IDF has already shot thousands of artillery shells at different parts of the Gaza Strip. The shells have caused unbearable damage to human life and tremendous destruction to infrastructure, the full scale of which will only be revealed when the fighting is over.
It turns out firing heavy artillery into populated civilian neighborhoods is not all that moral.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:37 AM on August 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


It turns out firing heavy artillery into populated civilian neighborhoods is not all that moral.

congratulations sir, you are the lucky recipient of this thread's Declarer of Grossly Understated Truth That For Some Reason People Refuse To Get award.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:50 AM on August 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Gershom Gorenberg, a Conservative Jewish Israeli whose 2012 book The Unmaking of Israel is must-reading, has a piece at The American Prospect on Netanyahu's shifting strategy, the changing justifications for the bombing, and the emotional legacy in Israel of previous Palestinian terror attacks.
posted by mediareport at 9:06 AM on August 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


rosswald: "BBC: Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures
"

Yeah, because if there's two sets of people we can count on for the truth, it's the IDF, and their American voice, the NYT. So, or course, every male between the ages of 15 and 80 must be Hamas. I mean, what else could they be?
posted by dejah420 at 9:10 AM on August 8, 2014


I am sorry you don't like the messengers dejah, but I thought some of the points brought up were interesting.
An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties.
And though I am sure you don't believe him, and IDF spokesman Capt Eytan Buchman said:
that "the UN numbers being reported are, by and by large, based on the Gaza health ministry, a Hamas-run organisation".

He said that part of the reason for the discrepancy between the figures was "when militants are brought to hospitals, they are brought in civilian clothing, obscuring terrorist affiliations".
I very much doubt there is an single objective/non-biased sources, but I wouldn't completely discount one sides numbers while accepting another's.
posted by rosswald at 9:33 AM on August 8, 2014


The political and misleading use of such terms as 'human shields' and 'tragedy': Gaza and the language of modern war
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:47 AM on August 8, 2014


I am sorry you don't like the messengers dejah, but

If you could could find a reputable source for Israelis killed by rocket attacks, we could run a similar analysis then. Since Israel practices universal conscription (with some exceptions), it should be illuminating.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:50 AM on August 8, 2014 [3 favorites]


If you could could find a reputable source for Israelis killed by rocket attacks, we could run a similar analysis then

Go for it.
posted by rosswald at 9:54 AM on August 8, 2014


I dunno Ross, you could read the same site I've been checking every single day to find names I know, and notice that these "overepresented" males are often all members of the same families, killed when their apartment or home was bombed from the air with F16s. Palestine is a very young country, it's demographics skew much younger than almost anywhere else. But of course, if the IDF kills them, they must therefore be Hamas.
posted by dejah420 at 10:03 AM on August 8, 2014


I asked because all I've found with names and ages are disreputable sources, and don't want to rely on them.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:07 AM on August 8, 2014


to find names I know, and notice that these "overepresented" males are often all members of the same families

That doesn't explain the gender imbalance, unless the male-female ratio in Gaza is different from elsewhere.
posted by rosswald at 10:09 AM on August 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Europe Offers to Establish Gaza-Cyprus Sea Route
A European source told Palestinian media outlets on Friday that Europe was willing to establish a sea route between the Gaza Strip and Larnaca, Cyprus – meant for both people and merchandise.
 
According to the initiative, European observers would be present both in Gaza and Larnaca in order to prevent security violations.
This sounds like a great idea. It seems Kerry's proposals failed to address Israel's security concerns, and creativity like this is much-needed.

(Haaretz) Foreign press: Hamas didn't censor us in Gaza, they were nowhere to befound

Voices From The Gaza Conflict: Google Hangout
Farah said her favourite book in English is Anne Frank's war time diary
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:21 AM on August 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? by Sam Harris
posted by jeffburdges at 11:04 AM on August 8, 2014


When did Paul Mason move from the BBC to UK's Channel 4? Anyway, this is an impressive but bleak analysis: Why Gaza will prove to be a game-changing event
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:06 AM on August 8, 2014


Gaza: a close look at the Israeli strikes on UNRWA schools acting as civilian shelters and hit seven times during Israel’s Gaza offensive.

Published Friday 8 August 2014... The Guardian
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think the truly game-changing event was the FAA's decision to prevent US planes landing in Tel Aviv's airport.

That is the craziest thing I seen anyone say about this so far. There isn't anything even remotely true about that.
posted by spaltavian at 11:27 AM on August 8, 2014 [2 favorites]


Why Don’t I Criticize Israel? by Sam Harris

I'm about to read it, but if its honest, the answer should be, "because my name is Sam Harris and I'm a fucking moron." Will report back shortly.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:32 AM on August 8, 2014


It's safe to say, if he's as deluded about everything else as he is about what he puts in that essay, we might be able to take it as conclusive proof for the existence of God.
posted by Grangousier at 11:36 AM on August 8, 2014


Its worse than I thought.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:42 AM on August 8, 2014 [4 favorites]


« Older Audio to make the Kessel Run seem a little shorter   |   Nature's Perfect Killing Machine Can Be Killed... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments