What it's like when the Family Business is Porn
September 5, 2014 8:50 PM Subscribe
so,,, since its the NYT, are we to assume this was fact checked?
posted by Fupped Duck at 10:11 PM on September 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Fupped Duck at 10:11 PM on September 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Maybe she wants to stay home with her baby, and she can, so she does?
posted by Sebmojo at 10:27 PM on September 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 10:27 PM on September 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
Dip Flash, I think she did say something to that: he felt jealous.
posted by notsnot at 10:40 PM on September 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by notsnot at 10:40 PM on September 5, 2014 [4 favorites]
so,,, since its the NYT, are we to assume this was fact checked?
Is there something in particular that you find implausible? If so, what? If not, what's your point?
posted by kenko at 10:42 PM on September 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Is there something in particular that you find implausible? If so, what? If not, what's your point?
posted by kenko at 10:42 PM on September 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hope she had a good pre-nup. Red flags everywhere.
posted by peep at 11:15 PM on September 5, 2014 [18 favorites]
posted by peep at 11:15 PM on September 5, 2014 [18 favorites]
"My husband gets to have all kinds of privileges that I don't and that's ok because love" is an old, old tune that never stops getting sung.
Ignore the porn angle and witness patriarchy instead.
posted by Avenger at 11:17 PM on September 5, 2014 [65 favorites]
Ignore the porn angle and witness patriarchy instead.
posted by Avenger at 11:17 PM on September 5, 2014 [65 favorites]
I feel like I just read a War Machine fluff piece.
posted by phaedon at 12:03 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by phaedon at 12:03 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hope she had a good pre-nup. Red flags everywhere.
They're engaged at this point. No pre-nups.
However, her fiancé Manuel probably makes more than she did on her contracts. He's not just a performer, he's involved in the porn business where the real money is made. He's a producer and director and has his own production company.
But I agree about the red flags. I'm sure love and livelong marriages happen in porn, but it is rare.
So yeah, I'm not optimistic about long term viability of their relationship.
posted by birdherder at 12:06 AM on September 6, 2014 [23 favorites]
They're engaged at this point. No pre-nups.
However, her fiancé Manuel probably makes more than she did on her contracts. He's not just a performer, he's involved in the porn business where the real money is made. He's a producer and director and has his own production company.
But I agree about the red flags. I'm sure love and livelong marriages happen in porn, but it is rare.
What is different is that I happen to love a decent, charming man whose work involves having sex with other women. And one strange reality of our lives is I often help ready those women for the shoots. Makeup is done in our dining room, where I assist with wardrobe, props and scripts, and then Manuel carts the cast and crew to the day’s location. Sometimes he performs with the women and sometimes he doesn’t. I don’t ask.That last sentence is awfully naive. The thing is the she'll get older while the women in getting ready for the shoot in her house will stay the same age. As the producer/director/shot caller on the production, Manuel can hire any swinging dick for the scene, but casts himself. In most porn scenes the guy is not much more than a prop. There's no reason aside from his desire to bang chicks to be a performer in these scenes he produces.
I’m human, though, and I admit I size up the women in the makeup chair. Is she sexier than I am? Smarter? Better in bed? No woman can be everything. For example, she can’t be the next woman.
So yeah, I'm not optimistic about long term viability of their relationship.
posted by birdherder at 12:06 AM on September 6, 2014 [23 favorites]
She appears to have achieved her personal escape velocity and then...
That was a grim and depressing article.
posted by Pudhoho at 12:27 AM on September 6, 2014 [10 favorites]
That was a grim and depressing article.
posted by Pudhoho at 12:27 AM on September 6, 2014 [10 favorites]
I think the seriousness and thought with which she's approached difficult life choices deserves respect, and provides pretty good grounds for optimism. She's not stupid. This is someone who has achieved a good life in a challenging world, not a stereotypical airhead bimbo who's about to crash and burn because she let herself be trampled by shitty men.
posted by Segundus at 12:46 AM on September 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 12:46 AM on September 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
That's a very reasonable point to make, Segundus, but even the most intelligent and well-adjusted people in the world have blind spots. Hell, I consider myself "not stupid" and yet I justify all kinds of life decisions that don't make a lot of rational sense to anybody else.
I wish the best possible outcome for their family but, as Kross herself admits in the essay's conclusion, at some point "there is simply no way to know." She's made a choice to trust this man and then trust the individual and mutual judgments that have led them to this place.
posted by Doleful Creature at 12:59 AM on September 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
I wish the best possible outcome for their family but, as Kross herself admits in the essay's conclusion, at some point "there is simply no way to know." She's made a choice to trust this man and then trust the individual and mutual judgments that have led them to this place.
posted by Doleful Creature at 12:59 AM on September 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
That last sentence is awfully naive. The thing is the she'll get older while the women in getting ready for the shoot in her house will stay the same age. As the producer/director/shot caller on the production, Manuel can hire any swinging dick for the scene, but casts himself. In most porn scenes the guy is not much more than a prop. There's no reason aside from his desire to bang chicks to be a performer in these scenes he produces.
I think she's suggesting that ultimately, if her relationship breaks up, it won't be because they work in porn, and that the preconditions necessary for their relationship to fail could happen just as easily if they worked in finance or construction or any other profession.
I mean, I'll admit, I felt uncomfortable reading the article as well. But I think a large part of that discomfort lies in her statement about how she wanted specifically to avoid what happened to her mom, and then her eventual conviction (or just hope) that this time will be different. I have basically no insight into whether she's made the right choice, or what eventually convinced her to set aside her (totally valid and reasonable) fears. Not that it ultimately matters very much to me in the end (or that she should care at all what I think), but I just have to trust that she's done what's best for her.
So basically, like any relationship, really. Which I think is her point.
posted by chrominance at 1:01 AM on September 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think she's suggesting that ultimately, if her relationship breaks up, it won't be because they work in porn, and that the preconditions necessary for their relationship to fail could happen just as easily if they worked in finance or construction or any other profession.
I mean, I'll admit, I felt uncomfortable reading the article as well. But I think a large part of that discomfort lies in her statement about how she wanted specifically to avoid what happened to her mom, and then her eventual conviction (or just hope) that this time will be different. I have basically no insight into whether she's made the right choice, or what eventually convinced her to set aside her (totally valid and reasonable) fears. Not that it ultimately matters very much to me in the end (or that she should care at all what I think), but I just have to trust that she's done what's best for her.
So basically, like any relationship, really. Which I think is her point.
posted by chrominance at 1:01 AM on September 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
At least she didn't marry Brad [previously].
posted by The Hamms Bear at 1:02 AM on September 6, 2014
posted by The Hamms Bear at 1:02 AM on September 6, 2014
Interesting column. On a less interesting note, MetaFilter is apparently equal-opportunity and whether you're a porn star or the CEO of PepsiCo, if you're a woman talking openly about the details of your family life, then prepare for some second-guessin'.
That last sentence is awfully naive.
To my understanding of her meaning, you're reading her backward.
posted by cribcage at 1:29 AM on September 6, 2014 [8 favorites]
That last sentence is awfully naive.
To my understanding of her meaning, you're reading her backward.
posted by cribcage at 1:29 AM on September 6, 2014 [8 favorites]
Without passing judgment on whether she made the "right" decision or properly fulfills some ideal of empowered female independence/stability, I find it poignant and a bit disheartening how the author has come to find herself in uncannily similar circumstances to her mother. This speaks to a common trope in life-narratives, where family dramas seem to repeat themselves generationally, often in spite of the efforts of the individual actors. In a way, you could read this story as an example of how these familial patterns repeat themselves even when one has chosen a life-trajectory that seemed to have promised an escape from family altogether.
posted by LMGM at 2:04 AM on September 6, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by LMGM at 2:04 AM on September 6, 2014 [9 favorites]
Seconded, LMGM. Reminds me of my last ex, whose dad got dumped by a woman because he never got his act together. Once I heard that story, I knew my relationship was doomed for the same reason.
In this case, yeah, it pretty much sounds like her worst fears are going to come true. She's a stay at home mom, dependent on a jealous guy for her financial survival and they're not even married yet. Those are bad signs even when you're not porn stars.
"This is someone who has achieved a good life in a challenging world, not a stereotypical airhead bimbo who's about to crash and burn because she let herself be trampled by shitty men."
Even if she's a smart lady, we can all end up crashing and burning if we fall for one shitty man, have his baby, and become financially dependent on him for our survival. I don't know about Manuel, but even if he's a genuinely good guy (who knows), this situation worries me. It's waaaaay too easy to get screwed over if he dumps her or gets interested in someone else, just like what happened to her mom. This kind of thing is why being a SAHM and trusting a man for my survival freaks me the hell out (not that it's ever been an option for me), I remember one time when every SAHM I knew was at risk because they were getting divorced/dumped/were with someone abusive, so I'm especially paranoid about that sort of thing. But throwing in on top of that a career where it might not be so easy to get back in, where her ex is a big shot(?), I.... would be worried.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:26 AM on September 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
In this case, yeah, it pretty much sounds like her worst fears are going to come true. She's a stay at home mom, dependent on a jealous guy for her financial survival and they're not even married yet. Those are bad signs even when you're not porn stars.
"This is someone who has achieved a good life in a challenging world, not a stereotypical airhead bimbo who's about to crash and burn because she let herself be trampled by shitty men."
Even if she's a smart lady, we can all end up crashing and burning if we fall for one shitty man, have his baby, and become financially dependent on him for our survival. I don't know about Manuel, but even if he's a genuinely good guy (who knows), this situation worries me. It's waaaaay too easy to get screwed over if he dumps her or gets interested in someone else, just like what happened to her mom. This kind of thing is why being a SAHM and trusting a man for my survival freaks me the hell out (not that it's ever been an option for me), I remember one time when every SAHM I knew was at risk because they were getting divorced/dumped/were with someone abusive, so I'm especially paranoid about that sort of thing. But throwing in on top of that a career where it might not be so easy to get back in, where her ex is a big shot(?), I.... would be worried.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:26 AM on September 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
Patriarchy is invasive, and demeaning, to all genders. Never forget that.
posted by ZaneJ. at 2:43 AM on September 6, 2014
posted by ZaneJ. at 2:43 AM on September 6, 2014
Related:
Interview With a Pregnant Porn Star
I am Manuel Ferrara, adult film star and hobbyist basket ball player AMA!
Kayden Kross & Manuel Ferrara are in love! Pr0n Stars on the AVN Red Carpet 2013!
(all links NSFWish)
posted by chavenet at 4:16 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Interview With a Pregnant Porn Star
I am Manuel Ferrara, adult film star and hobbyist basket ball player AMA!
Kayden Kross & Manuel Ferrara are in love! Pr0n Stars on the AVN Red Carpet 2013!
(all links NSFWish)
posted by chavenet at 4:16 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Not as interesting or as insightful (from a 'porn is the family business' point of view) as Tyger Takes On Porn
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:26 AM on September 6, 2014
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:26 AM on September 6, 2014
Going only by her own account, what's fascinating to me is she achieved what sounds like incredible personal freedom by embarking on a career path society would mostly say was exploitative and degrading, and then...got married and had a baby for love!, which is what the script says she should do, and it sounds...um...I mean, the tone of the conclusion does give one pause.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:14 AM on September 6, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:14 AM on September 6, 2014 [9 favorites]
Those related links are very lumina ting and put a different spin on Kross. I doubt she's financially dependent on her husband to be, she sounds like she has excellent common sense.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:19 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:19 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
From the Hairpin interview, her situation and independence might be a lot better than the NYTimes piece makes it sound:
Is the kind of success that you had in porn rare?
It is, I would say it’s rare and it requires a lot of discipline. I was lucky enough to have already had the experience, because I was a dancer before I got into adult. I had that lifestyle, and it was unsustainable. So when I came into adult, I was so shaken up by the idea of reaching an end and not having a career, that I tucked away a lot of money.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:26 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Is the kind of success that you had in porn rare?
It is, I would say it’s rare and it requires a lot of discipline. I was lucky enough to have already had the experience, because I was a dancer before I got into adult. I had that lifestyle, and it was unsustainable. So when I came into adult, I was so shaken up by the idea of reaching an end and not having a career, that I tucked away a lot of money.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:26 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm baffled by the second guessing of this woman's choices. She's not a child, she's had a child, and she's decided she doesn't want to have sex with strangers on camera anymore. Does this mean she's failed the sisterhood, or what?
posted by Sebmojo at 5:26 AM on September 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 5:26 AM on September 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
no woman "fails the sisterhood" or whatever because they decide to get married and have a kid. The weird thing about this article is that she goes from solid financial independence to becoming financially dependent about a guy who gets jealous if she works. Doesn't mean she has "failed the sisterhood." It means, for me, I read the article go 'Eesh. Hope that relationship works out because she's made herself pretty vulnerable.'
posted by angrycat at 5:43 AM on September 6, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by angrycat at 5:43 AM on September 6, 2014 [13 favorites]
The weird thing about this article is that she goes from solid financial independence to becoming financially dependent about a guy who gets jealous if she works.
No, she mentions in the article that she gave up a lucrative control, but still makes good money:
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 AM on September 6, 2014 [6 favorites]
No, she mentions in the article that she gave up a lucrative control, but still makes good money:
Although I gave up my lucrative contract, I continue to perform on occasion, though only with Manuel or with other women. I still make a good living in the business, along with my appearances and products.She's learned the financial independence lesson well, but is still willing to take risks for her emotional needs/wants. She sounds plenty smart and generally neat person.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 AM on September 6, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I didn't get any of the darkness or squick-feeling that I would normally when reading something like this.
I think a lot of people who aren't in "the business" have a lot of stereotypical ideas about the types of people who are in it. This story really did give me a sense of similarity to "normal" people, I guess. They have relationships which are complex and require choices; those choices just happen to have parameters which are a outside the norm. At least, that's what this article made me think - perhaps I have been too quick to judge in the past.
Pretty interesting, in my book.
posted by Thistledown at 5:54 AM on September 6, 2014
I think a lot of people who aren't in "the business" have a lot of stereotypical ideas about the types of people who are in it. This story really did give me a sense of similarity to "normal" people, I guess. They have relationships which are complex and require choices; those choices just happen to have parameters which are a outside the norm. At least, that's what this article made me think - perhaps I have been too quick to judge in the past.
Pretty interesting, in my book.
posted by Thistledown at 5:54 AM on September 6, 2014
look, yay to the lady for all the positive things she's done, but it strikes me that perhaps the NYT publishes these kinds of pieces as an invitation to evaluate a person's choices. Because of that or because I am a bad feminist or whatever the fuck I felt a little 'ugh' when it came to the dude's jealousy and the seemingly relationship between that and her choices.
i don't seriously think i am a bad feminist. i mean, i'm sure there are many better feminists than i am but having a 'watch out!' reaction to shit like this -- not because it's porn per se but because of the noted power structure described -- doesn't mean i am saying she has 'betrayed the sisterhood' and nor am i advocating anything but that the lady be free to live her own life and make her own choices.
sorry to be angry, hell of a week
posted by angrycat at 6:32 AM on September 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
i don't seriously think i am a bad feminist. i mean, i'm sure there are many better feminists than i am but having a 'watch out!' reaction to shit like this -- not because it's porn per se but because of the noted power structure described -- doesn't mean i am saying she has 'betrayed the sisterhood' and nor am i advocating anything but that the lady be free to live her own life and make her own choices.
sorry to be angry, hell of a week
posted by angrycat at 6:32 AM on September 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
To be honest, money isn't really what squicks me out about this. Porn actresses tend to make vastly more money than porn actors, and Kayden Kross is famous enough I've heard her name (she was in a Breaking Bad special feature, even!), so I'm sure she's plenty rich if she saved. It's the tone. It reads very resigned to me. She quit having sex with men on camera because it made her fiance jealous, and now she helps other women get ready to have sex with him, or not, because she doesn't want to know, and I guess doesn't watch the films? Different strokes, I guess; I can read as healthy two sex-positive people enthusiastically making porn together and apart, following the same ground rules, but the power disparity here sounds creepy.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:50 AM on September 6, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:50 AM on September 6, 2014 [11 favorites]
but it strikes me that perhaps the NYT publishes these kinds of pieces as an invitation to evaluate a person's choices
The Times Modern Love series seems to get written or edited to maximize the opportunities for judginess. If you look at the Hairpin interview (the first of the three additional links posted above), you can see that she has a far more nuanced view of the whole thing, as well as obviously has a lot of emotional and financial independence, which is not the impression I got from the Times piece.
Read together, the situation sounds a lot more normal and non-problematic, which is probably why the Times piece was focused the way it was.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 AM on September 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
The Times Modern Love series seems to get written or edited to maximize the opportunities for judginess. If you look at the Hairpin interview (the first of the three additional links posted above), you can see that she has a far more nuanced view of the whole thing, as well as obviously has a lot of emotional and financial independence, which is not the impression I got from the Times piece.
Read together, the situation sounds a lot more normal and non-problematic, which is probably why the Times piece was focused the way it was.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 AM on September 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Read together, the situation sounds a lot more normal and non-problematic, which is probably why the Times piece was focused the way it was.
She wrote the NYT piece.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:59 AM on September 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
She wrote the NYT piece.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:59 AM on September 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
She wrote the NYT piece.
All the Modern Love pieces are autobiographical, but either because of how they are pitched and chosen, or with the help of editing, the stories get focused in ways that lead to these kinds of judgy conversations. My guess is that a less problematic version of the story would not have been published in that series.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on September 6, 2014
All the Modern Love pieces are autobiographical, but either because of how they are pitched and chosen, or with the help of editing, the stories get focused in ways that lead to these kinds of judgy conversations. My guess is that a less problematic version of the story would not have been published in that series.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on September 6, 2014
Well, if the idea is to disregard the ostensible subject of the FPP, then sure, okay, the story can be whatever we want, I guess.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:11 AM on September 6, 2014
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:11 AM on September 6, 2014
I missed the ETA window, but the Hairpin interview doesn't seem to discuss the continued shared business aspect of their life together at all. It's mostly a take on the social dimensions of being/having been in porn and going on to be a parent. Interesting, entertaining, not really relevant to most of this discussion.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:24 AM on September 6, 2014
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:24 AM on September 6, 2014
Interesting, entertaining, not really relevant to most of this discussion.
Of course it is, as it gives a greater context for the person and the relationship. She seems the smarter and more articulate of the two, it's interesting what propelled her to make the decisions she made and her life was shaped by her mom's bad luck and mistakes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:59 AM on September 6, 2014
Of course it is, as it gives a greater context for the person and the relationship. She seems the smarter and more articulate of the two, it's interesting what propelled her to make the decisions she made and her life was shaped by her mom's bad luck and mistakes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:59 AM on September 6, 2014
It doesn't have much to do with whether her situation is really a good one, or whether there's an equal distribution of power in the confluence of her married and work lives. It's cool that she's happy to have a baby and that her fiance is a good father. It's sad that porn actresses have to deal with social stigma when they become people with children, or even people who just want to read a book to children. That sucks. Does that mean she is currently in a healthy or empowering situation? No. Does it mean she isn't? No. So I mean, it's not relevant to the conversation I at least am interested in; to be fair, others may be interested in a different one, which is fine.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:09 AM on September 6, 2014
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:09 AM on September 6, 2014
Quite a few people here are pretty ready to have an opinion on whether or not this woman is making good decisions. Anyone here in the porn business? Do you know her fiance? A lot of folks seem to have decided that they know enough to give this woman life advice, judging her from a position of relative ignorance.
The post itself seems a bit thin to me. My reaction is that I read the piece, said "OK Kayden Kross, good luck on your new stage of life," and didn't have much else to say or think about the matter.
posted by Edgewise at 9:20 AM on September 6, 2014 [6 favorites]
The post itself seems a bit thin to me. My reaction is that I read the piece, said "OK Kayden Kross, good luck on your new stage of life," and didn't have much else to say or think about the matter.
posted by Edgewise at 9:20 AM on September 6, 2014 [6 favorites]
She seems the smarter and more articulate of the two
In fairness, it feels worth pointing out that Manuel was born and raised in France so English is a second language for the guy.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:44 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
In fairness, it feels worth pointing out that Manuel was born and raised in France so English is a second language for the guy.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:44 AM on September 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm going to plant my stick in the sand here and declare that there is nothing "degrading" about sex, for money, for friendship or for love. We are only who we are. The issue here, as I read it, is not about "porn," but about economic dependance, and it matters not a bit if you are a "sex worker" or a simple clerk. Are my skills as a programmer worth more than the skills of a porn actress? I often wonder. I think we all deserve to live our lives as best we can. I will not judge her, but only hope that she is safe.
posted by SPrintF at 1:04 PM on September 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 1:04 PM on September 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
After reading some of the other links, I remind myself that editorially, the NYT seems devoted to making all human beings come off as intolerable.
I just can't tell if the shaping of the narrative here is supposed to make us feel safe the the bad porn star is bad, or if this is typical NYT aspirational literature because giving up your wildly lucrative career for marriage (to someone who is a moneymaker in his own right, obvs) and a child is the most-desired thing anyone could ever want, so that you have all your time free for getting them into French-immersion preschool and sneering at other people's choice of nannies.
Kross was already buying stocks and property when she was dancing, she's fine. That's the whole point: she's fine. Opting out isn't going to mean her career passes her by; it was going to end any minute now anyway. She's like an athlete; there was always a time limit, and she chose to invest instead of spending it all on SUVs and blow. And like an athlete, there will be post-career business opportunities in the industry even if she never takes the field again, but she will be able to pick and choose, because she prepared for this. Like her mother couldn't.
And that's really only relatable to people who run hedge funds or work in investment banking, so actually this is a really cleverly subversive piece to run in the Times.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:01 AM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
I just can't tell if the shaping of the narrative here is supposed to make us feel safe the the bad porn star is bad, or if this is typical NYT aspirational literature because giving up your wildly lucrative career for marriage (to someone who is a moneymaker in his own right, obvs) and a child is the most-desired thing anyone could ever want, so that you have all your time free for getting them into French-immersion preschool and sneering at other people's choice of nannies.
Kross was already buying stocks and property when she was dancing, she's fine. That's the whole point: she's fine. Opting out isn't going to mean her career passes her by; it was going to end any minute now anyway. She's like an athlete; there was always a time limit, and she chose to invest instead of spending it all on SUVs and blow. And like an athlete, there will be post-career business opportunities in the industry even if she never takes the field again, but she will be able to pick and choose, because she prepared for this. Like her mother couldn't.
And that's really only relatable to people who run hedge funds or work in investment banking, so actually this is a really cleverly subversive piece to run in the Times.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:01 AM on September 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
« Older Sticks! Amazing! | Of Kant and many other things Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Dip Flash at 8:59 PM on September 5, 2014 [9 favorites]