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October 5, 2014 7:58 PM Subscribe
"When critics and journalists discuss John Darnielle’s new, first full-length novel, Wolf in White Van, which was just nominated for a National Book Award, they often point out the storytelling aspect of his songwriting. But Mountain Goats songs are as much incantation as narrative—they imply the advent of the trauma with declarations and appeals to dead gods, which deny it or try (futilely) to ward it off." Carl Wilson reviews the novel--about the inventor of a role-playing by mail game with a cult following--in depth on Slate. Listen to the first chapter read by Darnielle here. Autoplay
Just bought this. Darnielle's always been a really smart, literate dude, and though I'm not a big MG fan, I'm curious what he can do in a novel. Oh, and the cover is fuckin ace.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:30 PM on October 5, 2014
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:30 PM on October 5, 2014
Does John Darnielle talk anywhere about real play-by-mail games that might have inspired him? I was always intrigued as a kid by the PBM ads in the margins of Computer Gaming World promising to let you send away in the mail to become part of a massive medieval simulation, or RPG, or just chess, but never looked into it.
posted by johngoren at 9:10 PM on October 5, 2014
posted by johngoren at 9:10 PM on October 5, 2014
John Darnielle wanted to be a poet when he was a teenager, but then he looked into who reads and buys poetry nowadays, which is to say not many other teenagers (besides the Angry Young People of poetry slams, which is not his métier). But they do inscribe their favorite band's song lyrics on school notebooks and leather jackets, and declare themselves huge fans of the deep poetic beauty of second-rate stuff just so long as it's got a musical accompaniment. Darnielle, like Leonard Cohen before him, came to the conclusion that he needed to buy a guitar and learn just enough chords so he was a local musician rather than a poet. If you listen to his earliest stuff it's pretty clear that it's all about the allusive poetry, and only later did he become invested in developing his musical chops. All that is to say: this book's been a long time coming.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 9:11 PM on October 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 9:11 PM on October 5, 2014 [8 favorites]
We went to see him read last week at the Tattered Cover in Denver, and my husband asked him about his gaming history. I don't remember him saying that he played these types of games, but he did say that he started talking about, and playing role playing games with Jason Morningstar, who I believe he said he knew through a parenting group.*
I'm so happy for this post, if only to acknowledge that I misspelled his name the last time I mentioned him in a comment, and I've honestly been feeling bad about it for the past two months.
* I hope I'm not getting my facts mixed up. My memory is no longer what I believe it once was.
posted by bibliowench at 9:24 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm so happy for this post, if only to acknowledge that I misspelled his name the last time I mentioned him in a comment, and I've honestly been feeling bad about it for the past two months.
* I hope I'm not getting my facts mixed up. My memory is no longer what I believe it once was.
posted by bibliowench at 9:24 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Just finished it this morning. It's beautifully written for the most part and has some really poignant moments and I'll look forward to any other books he writes, for sure, but it was ultimately somewhat unsatisfying as a novel (it's more an extended short story or novella). The various episodes didn't add up to much beyond mood and tone, and the "lack of release" and "sense of dissatisfaction" at the end (something Darnielle has said he was at least partly aiming for) kinda worked against the promise of the backwards storytelling, which hinted heavily throughout that there would be at least some kind of significant payoff. I know, "life is just like that!" and all, but it left me disappointed in the structure of the book.
Oh, also, the NYT'S Dwight Garner deserves some kind of shitty prize for putting one of the book's late reveals in the first sentence of his review. Seriously, it couldn't be more clear that Darnielle wanted to dangle the specifics of Sean's injury in front of the reader for a while before clarifying them. It's astonishing that a reviewer would needlessly blurt it out like Garner did. Plenty of other reviewers had no trouble granting the author and readers that basic courtesy.
posted by mediareport at 9:33 PM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Oh, also, the NYT'S Dwight Garner deserves some kind of shitty prize for putting one of the book's late reveals in the first sentence of his review. Seriously, it couldn't be more clear that Darnielle wanted to dangle the specifics of Sean's injury in front of the reader for a while before clarifying them. It's astonishing that a reviewer would needlessly blurt it out like Garner did. Plenty of other reviewers had no trouble granting the author and readers that basic courtesy.
posted by mediareport at 9:33 PM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
Does John Darnielle talk anywhere about real play-by-mail games that might have inspired him?
I read something today (can't recall where, read a lot about the book this afternoon) where he said he doesn't recall any specific play-by-mail games but it wouldn't surprise him to learn they existed back when he was reading ads in the back of gaming mags as a kid.
posted by mediareport at 9:42 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I read something today (can't recall where, read a lot about the book this afternoon) where he said he doesn't recall any specific play-by-mail games but it wouldn't surprise him to learn they existed back when he was reading ads in the back of gaming mags as a kid.
posted by mediareport at 9:42 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Plenty of other reviewers had no trouble granting the author and readers that basic courtesy.
Lots of reviewers and previewers spoiled stuff, including the NPR interview which alerted me to its existence - I usually don't care too much but this is one time I do regret seeking out so much about the book before I read it. Not that the it's actually oriented around "twists" but the pace at which details become clear does contribute to the atmosphere and momentum of the book.
I guess *barely* some spoilers from here on out in this comment:
So first of all I wouldn't say it adds up to "mood and tone." WIWV is obsessively concerned with a few more philosophical themes like free will, causality, destiny and the limits and implications thereof and weaves these themes (and some others: reality/connectedness vs fantasy/solipsism) in in so many ways on so many levels that it transcends the potential to be too obvious and is pretty impressive in my opinion.
which hinted heavily throughout that there would be at least some kind of significant payoff
The narrator says right at the beginning that he doesn't know the answer to the most obvious unanswered question and what is put forward concerning said major themes of the book really didn't have me expecting answers in general. If there's a problem with the ending(s) - unless I missed something the forward thread of narration ends on something of an actual cliffhanger, whereas the backward one reaches the promised peak moment but does not provide desired clarity - it's that they seem so wide open - like there aren't even enough dots to connect to guess at answers or what might happen next. Though I've thought about it a lot and can elaborate in a little more detail - again I think it's exactly the *kind* of ending it should be in fitting with what the book is about so if anything is a little off it's an issue of execution - if you think this thread is the place for it.
posted by atoxyl at 12:57 AM on October 6, 2014
Lots of reviewers and previewers spoiled stuff, including the NPR interview which alerted me to its existence - I usually don't care too much but this is one time I do regret seeking out so much about the book before I read it. Not that the it's actually oriented around "twists" but the pace at which details become clear does contribute to the atmosphere and momentum of the book.
I guess *barely* some spoilers from here on out in this comment:
So first of all I wouldn't say it adds up to "mood and tone." WIWV is obsessively concerned with a few more philosophical themes like free will, causality, destiny and the limits and implications thereof and weaves these themes (and some others: reality/connectedness vs fantasy/solipsism) in in so many ways on so many levels that it transcends the potential to be too obvious and is pretty impressive in my opinion.
which hinted heavily throughout that there would be at least some kind of significant payoff
The narrator says right at the beginning that he doesn't know the answer to the most obvious unanswered question and what is put forward concerning said major themes of the book really didn't have me expecting answers in general. If there's a problem with the ending(s) - unless I missed something the forward thread of narration ends on something of an actual cliffhanger, whereas the backward one reaches the promised peak moment but does not provide desired clarity - it's that they seem so wide open - like there aren't even enough dots to connect to guess at answers or what might happen next. Though I've thought about it a lot and can elaborate in a little more detail - again I think it's exactly the *kind* of ending it should be in fitting with what the book is about so if anything is a little off it's an issue of execution - if you think this thread is the place for it.
posted by atoxyl at 12:57 AM on October 6, 2014
Just finished it this morning. It's beautifully written for the most part and has some really poignant moments and I'll look forward to any other books he writes, for sure, but it was ultimately somewhat unsatisfying as a novel (it's more an extended short story or novella).
In case folks don't realize, his 33 and a third book about Master of Reality is also a novella.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:26 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
In case folks don't realize, his 33 and a third book about Master of Reality is also a novella.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:26 AM on October 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
John Darnielle wanted to be a poet when he was a teenager, but then he looked into who reads and buys poetry nowadays, which is to say not many other teenagers (besides the Angry Young People of poetry slams, which is not his métier). But they do inscribe their favorite band's song lyrics on school notebooks and leather jackets, and declare themselves huge fans of the deep poetic beauty of second-rate stuff just so long as it's got a musical accompaniment. Darnielle, like Leonard Cohen before him, came to the conclusion that he needed to buy a guitar and learn just enough chords so he was a local musician rather than a poet. If you listen to his earliest stuff it's pretty clear that it's all about the allusive poetry, and only later did he become invested in developing his musical chops. All that is to say: this book's been a long time coming.
This isn't all that different than my own story, only personal circumstances set me back about 10 years on the path to actually getting there. I've always felt like Darnielle and I had a lot in common in terms of our outlooks and working aims. I wish I had gotten to meet him properly and chat him up the last time my old band opened up for the MG, but--well, as I've explained before, there was an awkward moment when I walked in on him changing in the green room, and I was too embarrassed after that to stick around. Meanwhile, he's more or less doing what I've been trying to do since I was 15, and I'm grateful to him for blazing the trail.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:24 AM on October 6, 2014
This isn't all that different than my own story, only personal circumstances set me back about 10 years on the path to actually getting there. I've always felt like Darnielle and I had a lot in common in terms of our outlooks and working aims. I wish I had gotten to meet him properly and chat him up the last time my old band opened up for the MG, but--well, as I've explained before, there was an awkward moment when I walked in on him changing in the green room, and I was too embarrassed after that to stick around. Meanwhile, he's more or less doing what I've been trying to do since I was 15, and I'm grateful to him for blazing the trail.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:24 AM on October 6, 2014
Oh, also, the NYT'S Dwight Garner deserves some kind of shitty prize for putting one of the book's late reveals in the first sentence of his review.Ugh, Terry Gross did this too while interviewing John Darnielle a couple of weeks ago. So frustrating.
posted by whitecedar at 7:53 AM on October 6, 2014
Ugh, Terry Gross did this too while interviewing John Darnielle a couple of weeks ago. So frustrating.
This is the interview I was talking about - I didn't even know it was supposed to be a "spoiler" until much later. Again I found quite a few reviewers have been cavalier about revealing stuff. I guess because it's not *really* a twist ending sort of book they thought it was okay? But the pace at which things are revealed in the text is very deliberate and no question it's meant to start out a little mysterious even if it doesn't matter in the end.
posted by atoxyl at 10:41 AM on October 6, 2014
This is the interview I was talking about - I didn't even know it was supposed to be a "spoiler" until much later. Again I found quite a few reviewers have been cavalier about revealing stuff. I guess because it's not *really* a twist ending sort of book they thought it was okay? But the pace at which things are revealed in the text is very deliberate and no question it's meant to start out a little mysterious even if it doesn't matter in the end.
posted by atoxyl at 10:41 AM on October 6, 2014
Also ***SPOILERS IN THIS ONE*** (I don't know is there any real convention for this on MeFi right now):
Lots of reviewers have made the obvious link to James Vance and the Judas Priest suicide pact incident. But isn't [other major plot point] reminiscent of that other amazing moral panic - over role-playing games and specifically the disappearance of Dallas Egbert? I've always seen these as contemporary, even though they're a decade apart (the real story on Egbert was out by the time of the Priest lawsuit but everybody had forgotten him by then) and more like bookends to the era if anything, because they bubble up from the same milieu of pre-internet adolescent fantasy - which of course is where Darnielle seems to live more often than not.
hmm actually I guess the attempt happened years before the lawsuit which only makes my connecting them more natural
posted by atoxyl at 11:04 AM on October 6, 2014
Lots of reviewers have made the obvious link to James Vance and the Judas Priest suicide pact incident. But isn't [other major plot point] reminiscent of that other amazing moral panic - over role-playing games and specifically the disappearance of Dallas Egbert? I've always seen these as contemporary, even though they're a decade apart (the real story on Egbert was out by the time of the Priest lawsuit but everybody had forgotten him by then) and more like bookends to the era if anything, because they bubble up from the same milieu of pre-internet adolescent fantasy - which of course is where Darnielle seems to live more often than not.
hmm actually I guess the attempt happened years before the lawsuit which only makes my connecting them more natural
posted by atoxyl at 11:04 AM on October 6, 2014
The only reviewer I've seen who specified the nature of Sean's accident was the NYT reviewer. All of the others make at least some effort to allow readers to discover it as Darnielle wrote it. I bet that's true for the majority of mainstream reviews, which is as it should be. Garner's spoiler was completely unnecessary and read to me as a little spiteful.
posted by mediareport at 11:13 AM on October 6, 2014
posted by mediareport at 11:13 AM on October 6, 2014
I hate the spoiler police. Get a bubble or sth.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:05 PM on October 6, 2014
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:05 PM on October 6, 2014
In case folks don't realize, his 33 and a third book about Master of Reality is also a novella.
Thanks for mentioning this! I had no idea.
posted by reuvenc at 2:03 AM on October 7, 2014
Thanks for mentioning this! I had no idea.
posted by reuvenc at 2:03 AM on October 7, 2014
It weirds me out that Darnielle knows Jason Morningstar. Those are two of my favorite micro-celebrities.
Now what we need is for Patrica Lockwood, John Darnielle, Wil Wheaton, and Jason Morningstar to do a TableTop episode of The Climb or a JeepForm game.
posted by anotherpanacea at 12:41 PM on October 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Now what we need is for Patrica Lockwood, John Darnielle, Wil Wheaton, and Jason Morningstar to do a TableTop episode of The Climb or a JeepForm game.
posted by anotherpanacea at 12:41 PM on October 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Joseph Gurl, I'll be happy to chat with you via MeMail if you want to have a thoughtful discussion about the difference between 1) unnecessary spoilers for brand-new works whose authors intentionally withheld the information that appears in the spoiler and 2) perfectly reasonable spoilers you'd have to live in a bubble to complain about. Let me know when you finish the book and want to chat.
posted by mediareport at 6:09 PM on October 7, 2014
posted by mediareport at 6:09 PM on October 7, 2014
Nah, too busy. Thanks for the offer, though. Very kind of you.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:55 PM on October 7, 2014
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:55 PM on October 7, 2014
*SPOILERS*
Just finished the book. And I think there IS a payoff, but it feels hidden because the ending is so charged. We've been lulled by Sean to think that he doesn't have a reason for attempting suicide. He claims that he just doesn't know why it happened. But at the very end we find out how much worse it could've gone. That there was a bloodthirstiness inside Sean that was so strong it had to burst out of his fantasy world into reality. That he trained his focus on himself and let his parents and neighbors live was as heroic an act as he could muster.
That fact recolored everything in the book for me. In this age of school shootings, it should not have surprised me as much as it did. The clues were all there. But I was the kind of kid who half-lived in a fantasy world all the time, too. Who could imagine going overboard and heading out for the territories on a Romantic Quest.
The book is structured in such a way that the end feels overwhelmingly tragic. And yet, in the full analysis, Sean has a pretty happy ending. More of a CH than an L+C. There's a lot hidden in this book.
posted by rikschell at 11:47 AM on October 18, 2014 [3 favorites]
Just finished the book. And I think there IS a payoff, but it feels hidden because the ending is so charged. We've been lulled by Sean to think that he doesn't have a reason for attempting suicide. He claims that he just doesn't know why it happened. But at the very end we find out how much worse it could've gone. That there was a bloodthirstiness inside Sean that was so strong it had to burst out of his fantasy world into reality. That he trained his focus on himself and let his parents and neighbors live was as heroic an act as he could muster.
That fact recolored everything in the book for me. In this age of school shootings, it should not have surprised me as much as it did. The clues were all there. But I was the kind of kid who half-lived in a fantasy world all the time, too. Who could imagine going overboard and heading out for the territories on a Romantic Quest.
The book is structured in such a way that the end feels overwhelmingly tragic. And yet, in the full analysis, Sean has a pretty happy ending. More of a CH than an L+C. There's a lot hidden in this book.
posted by rikschell at 11:47 AM on October 18, 2014 [3 favorites]
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I started typing the sentence "I bet Ice-T has a couple of good novels in him" and then looked him up on Amazon and discovered that he has, in fact, cowritten at least one novel. So maybe I'm just ignorant and all my favorite songwriters actually are novelists in their spare time.
posted by town of cats at 8:23 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]