Gunmen on loose in Downtown Ottawa
October 22, 2014 8:42 AM   Subscribe

The Canadian Parliament and several blocks of Downtown Ottawa are unlocked down following shootings inside Parliament Hill and at the War Memorial a block away. A soldier at the memorial was shot. One shooter is dead inside Centre Block of Parliament Hill but at least one is still on the loose. Reports that shots have been fired inside the Chateau Laurier. University of Ottawa and large chunks of downtown Ottawa are on lockdown. Said one officer: "if you can see Parliament Hill, you're not safe." Live coverage from CFRA in Ottawa. Footage of exchange of gunfire inside Centre Block (Via Globe and Mail). This comes a day after another Canadian Forces officer was deliberately killed by a car that targeted him.
posted by dry white toast (407 comments total) 23 users marked this as a favorite
 
Sorry for the lazy formatting and spacing. Did the FPP from my phone. Wanted to get something up for people to discuss. If someone wants to do a better post, I'm happy to have that replace this.
posted by dry white toast at 8:44 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


. for any innocents. Hope they catch them swiftly and safely.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:47 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Many times reports of multiple shooters turn out to be incorrect. Hopefully that is what is happening here. Stay safe my Canadian friends.
posted by humanfont at 8:47 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


via Twitter: Ottawa police reporting 3rd shooting scene, at Rideau Centre Mall, close to Parliament Hill
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2014


Police are saying three shooters. Police.
posted by dry white toast at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


The Twitter hashtag #hw is the best way to keep up with what's happening on Parliament Hill.
posted by Nevin at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


The BBC has live coverage online here. The Guardian is doing it here.

My heart goes out to you, Canada.
posted by argonauta at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2014


Jesus, Canada, don't follow America's example.
posted by marienbad at 8:49 AM on October 22, 2014 [25 favorites]


All government buildings in Ottawa are locked down, including mine which is a good distance from downtown. No one in, no one out.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:49 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Also, the shooter inside Centre Block was taken down by the Sargent-At-Arms, who is apparently not just decorative.
posted by dry white toast at 8:49 AM on October 22, 2014 [29 favorites]


Also, all Canadian Forces bases are on lock down.
posted by dry white toast at 8:50 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


and this morning, NPR (or was it BBC on NPR) noted Canada raised their terror level to Medium, but with no specific threat.
posted by k5.user at 8:50 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


via bbc - (tweets): Reports coming in there could be as many as FIVE active shooters involved.
posted by marienbad at 8:52 AM on October 22, 2014


Also, all Canadian Forces bases are on lock down.

Because forcing your military to shelter in place against an armed attacker helps in exactly what way? They shouldn't be on lockdown, they should be on combat alert.
posted by eriko at 8:52 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


I think maybe "lockdown" and "general quarters" are synonymous? There are lots of non-combat personnel on bases that are as vulnerable as any office worker.
posted by Invisible Green Time-Lapse Peloton at 8:54 AM on October 22, 2014 [15 favorites]


The raise in terror level was a result of the soldier being killed yesterday by someone reports claim was tied to Islamic State. ISIS had called on sympathizers in Canada to carry out acts of terror inside the country in response to Canada joining the air strikes in Syria.
posted by dry white toast at 8:54 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


I really, really hope this doesn't change the current status quo vis-a-vis the public's access to Parliament Hill, which is: feel free to go waltzing around it 24/7.

The reports are really flaky, with contradictory stuff coming in all over the place. Loads of people I know work downtown and my Facebook is all "we're locked down!" It is a sad, sad day for Ottawa. People who work in the core are sometimes skittish about the idea of something happening here, but generally the attitude has been but it's Ottawa! That sort of thing wouldn't happen here.

:-/
posted by kmennie at 8:55 AM on October 22, 2014 [7 favorites]


Reports coming in there could be as many as FIVE active shooters involved.

Holy crap.
posted by phunniemee at 8:55 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Again, reports of multiple shooters are VERY often exaggerated.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:55 AM on October 22, 2014 [14 favorites]


They shouldn't be on lockdown, they should be on combat alert.

Those two are not mutually exclusive.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:56 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


Because forcing your military to shelter in place against an armed attacker helps in exactly what way? They shouldn't be on lockdown, they should be on combat alert.

My son's hockey team practised and participated in games at the rink on the local navy base. You can essentially just drive onto the base. There is minimal security besides a guard house where you have to sign in.

As well, these... people... seem to be targeting CF personnel (the poor soldier that got run down by the wannabe jihadi the other day, the soldier shot just now at the Cenotaph on Parliament Hill).

There was also that drummer in London who had his head sawn off.

So yeah, locking down military installations would seem to be a wise thing to do.
posted by Nevin at 8:56 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


CBC has a live news feed

One shooter is apparently dead; solider seriously injured.
posted by GuyZero at 8:56 AM on October 22, 2014


The film of shots inside Parliament is frightening. Right inside the building. Wow.

There was also that drummer in London who had his head sawn off.

He was neither on the base nor armed. Nor indeed was he actually beheaded, for what little it is worth.
posted by Thing at 8:58 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


It is all taking place in a very tight area, for those who do not know Ottawa. This Google Maps screenshot shows the National War Memorial where the situation apparently began. Just to the west of that you can see the Langevin Bock where the PM's office is and the Parliament building across the street. The Chateau Laurier is visible across the street from the War Memorial, and the aforementioned Rideau Centre is a couple hundred metres east along Wellington.

I pass though these blocks regularly when in town and spend most of my time in the area shown on the map. This is disquieting.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:59 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


I have been listening to this on Radio One for the last 90 minutes. It's heartbreaking. It's really hard to figure out what's happening between media reports and my Ottawa friends and family posting to Twitter and Facebook. It's confusing and frightening.

Much love to Ottawa right now. I visit regularly and always feel safe there. I fear I might not ever walk through the downtown streets with the same confidence ever again.
posted by futureisunwritten at 8:59 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Because forcing your military to shelter in place against an armed attacker helps in exactly what way? They shouldn't be on lockdown, they should be on combat alert.

No military is prepared to deploy for civil security on a moments notice--that takes days to organize. They're simply not a response option in general for a situation like this, so locking down the base is the appropriate response.
posted by fatbird at 9:00 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


Somehow the shooter inside Centre Block made it from Wellington St. all the way across Parliament Hill with a long gun. Imagine walking across a football field people milling around and not being noticed if you were carrying a rifle.
posted by dry white toast at 9:00 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


CBC just confirmed the Rideau Centre shooting.

also Netcraft confirms Linux still dead
posted by GuyZero at 9:00 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS. I don't think I can handle another round of militant, racist, nationalism disguised as defensive patriotism and further normalization of the restriction of civil liberties. Jesus Christ we don't just let the terrorists win, we fucking own goal against them.
posted by Talez at 9:01 AM on October 22, 2014 [90 favorites]


.
posted by putzface_dickman at 9:04 AM on October 22, 2014


I was just considering making almost this exact same post with the same links, but wasn't sure whether it was too breakignewsfiltery to stand. I'm glad this is here.

Regardless of what beefs I may have with the police, Canadian police have generally shown themselves to be extremely effective and disciplined at dealing with this sort of situation calmly and rapidly. And Canada has always shown particular resistance to letting this sort of events disproportionately affect public policy with knee-jerk legislation.

May both of these trends continue. Stay safe Ottawans.
posted by 256 at 9:04 AM on October 22, 2014 [10 favorites]


Also worth noting. Malala Yousafzai, who stood up to the Taliban is in Canada to be given honourary citizenship today.
posted by dry white toast at 9:04 AM on October 22, 2014 [10 favorites]


Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS.

loony jihadist wannabe's responding to ISIS call for Canadians to attack their government is my bet.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:04 AM on October 22, 2014 [8 favorites]


Whoever this is, I'm more fearful of what the state will do in response to the shooters than I am of the shooters themselves, seeing as we've already demonstrated that we can't be reasonable or level-headed about these things. I think Canadians really need to be mindful now, lest the Charter also becomes a victim of this attack.
posted by Kurichina at 9:05 AM on October 22, 2014 [33 favorites]


Well, this should bring forth some exciting new legislation and security measures.

. for the innocents.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:07 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Somehow the shooter inside Centre Block made it from Wellington St. all the way across Parliament Hill with a long gun. Imagine walking across a football field people milling around and not being noticed if you were carrying a rifle.

Could the shooter have placed the rifle in some sort of case, box, or tube? It doesn't seem all that difficult to pull off, given a little finesse.

loony jihadist wannabe's responding to ISIS call for Canadians to attack their government.

They may be loony, but they're not wannabes: they are actually doing this. Unfortunately, all it takes to pull off an attack like this is murderousness, temerity, and a few guns. Hopefully, they will all be caught (or, if necessary, otherwise stopped) before they can cause any more concrete damage.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:09 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


For tjose not in canadian news loop, there was an attack on soldiers yesterday in Montreal, too, one soldier dead, attacker dead. In that incident it seems connected to radical terror movements... Attacker was on a watch list, had passport confiscated.

Hearts out to all first responders, MPs and military today. Also, please Canada circle round your Muslim friends, let's ensure we keep calm in the face of any backlash.

And yes, this will likely spread that CSIS power expansion into law, more is the pity.
posted by chapps at 9:11 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


I've had checkins via facebook/twitter/email that political staffers are all (seem to be) safe - haven't heard from friends at the auditor's office but I'm not that concerned for them.

That is very bad, though. Back in New Brunswick, there was a really bad set of shootings targeting the RCMP in the summer - and they managed to bring him in alive, he's already pled guilty. Hopefully the same level of professionalism can happen with the remaining shooters here.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:11 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


The shooting at Rideau Centre is being debunked. I'm still looking for confirmation that the shooter who made it inside Parliament was shot by the actual Sergeant-at Arms.
posted by thecjm at 9:11 AM on October 22, 2014


Hurt no one, so that no one may hurt you.
posted by xarnop at 9:12 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Please don't be ISIS. I don't think I can handle another round of militant, racist, nationalism disguised as defensive patriotism and further normalization of the restriction of civil liberties.

If not now, then soon enough. In any event, I doubt that the shooters' motivation will weigh much in how much civil liberties get further curtailed. Horses bolt, farmers buy locks. Way of the world.

To be totally cold about it, I'm surprised, assuming they are jihadis, that they've chosen such an inefficient kind of attack. Small comfort, but considering what it could have been....

Hurt no one, so that no one may hurt you.

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:14 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS.

Screw that, please don't be the FLQ.
posted by GuyZero at 9:14 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


It is all taking place in a very tight area, for those who do not know Ottawa.

thanks for that. My experience with breaking stories of this sort is that the media often fails to put the situation into a graspable geographic context. They focus so much on the most dramatic/dynamic stuff that we end up getting a distorted impression of just how widespread the danger/chaos really is. Thus more fear.
posted by philip-random at 9:14 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also, all Canadian Forces bases are on lock down.

Because forcing your military to shelter in place against an armed attacker helps in exactly what way? They shouldn't be on lockdown, they should be on combat alert.


Lockdown spans a few meanings. I believe in this case, the applicable interpretation might best be "closed to public access," not that the Canadian Forces are hiding under their desks.

Note that the Ottawa bridges to Quebec are closed as well. The province is not under lockdown.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:15 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


The gunmen didn't go unseen: there are quotes on CBC from people on the scene -- including tourists -- who noted the long gun. And they describe different sets of clothes, which confirms the presence of multiple shooters.

--
God bless you, Canada, and good luck: don't follow us down this dead end just because you're scared.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:15 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS. I don't think I can handle another round of militant, racist, nationalism disguised as defensive patriotism and further normalization of the restriction of civil liberties. Jesus Christ we don't just let the terrorists win, we fucking own goal against them.

Canada already has secret courts, and has had them for the past decade.

The guy in Quebec the other day was actually prevented by the RCMP from travelling to Turkey, where presumably he would have joined ISIS.

In terms of restricting civil liberties, Quebec police and RCMP said that since he was doing nothing illegal (he was being monitored) they couldn't really prevent him from doing what he did in Quebec, which was run over a soldier.

I do agree that in a lead-up to a federal election, this is a game-changer for sure. After 30 shots being fired in the Centre Block, what pol is going to publicly resist whatever crazy legislative proposals are sure to come out of this?
posted by Nevin at 9:15 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Sorry just quoting Muhammed.
posted by xarnop at 9:16 AM on October 22, 2014


The shooting at Rideau Centre is being debunked.

Is it? CBC reported about ten seconds ago that the Ottawa police had confirmed it.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:17 AM on October 22, 2014


Guess I should have written out the longer thought process I was having but it was a bit rambly as I'm upset, so I went with a shortened and likely meaningless to convey my point message. I was mainly thinking how I would reason with ISIS should I ever be forced to meet a shooter of this ideological bent.
posted by xarnop at 9:18 AM on October 22, 2014


Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS.

Whoever this is, I'm more fearful of what the state will do in response to the shooters than I am of the shooters themselves


Every time a shooting incident happens, it seems we're always jumping ahead to speculate on the identity or to what will happen down the line.

The shooting isn't even over and we're already reacting to things that haven't happened yet. I find that a little weird and freaky. I know the media isn't purposefully training us to do this, but it's still unsettling.
posted by FJT at 9:18 AM on October 22, 2014 [8 favorites]


My experience with breaking stories of this sort is that the media often fails to put the situation into a graspable geographic context.

Every Canadian journalist probably knows this area of Ottawa better than they know their own home. The longer I am away from it the smaller I realize Canada actually is. I haven't been in Ottawa in over a decade and I can still picture the area where this shooting occurred clearly in my head.

This is going to make for a pretty sombre Remembrance Day next month.
posted by GuyZero at 9:18 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Globe footage of shoot out in Parliament building
posted by marienbad at 9:19 AM on October 22, 2014


The shooting at Rideau Centre is being debunked.

Is it? CBC reported about ten seconds ago that the Ottawa police had confirmed it.


I'm seeing that it was *near* the Rideau Centre, not in it.

EDIT: link
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:20 AM on October 22, 2014


Having been through the active shooter event at th Washington Navy Yard, my thoughts are really going out to my Canadian friends right now. Stay safe, everyone
posted by Zonker at 9:20 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


The GM of the Rideau Centre was saying 15 minutes ago that there have been no shootings INSIDE the mall. Maybe that's changed since, maybe it happened outside and they're being hyper-specific in their statements.
posted by thecjm at 9:21 AM on October 22, 2014


No military is prepared to deploy for civil security on a moments notice--that takes days to organize. They're simply not a response option in general for a situation like this, so locking down the base is the appropriate response.

I'm not arguing that lockdown isn't appropriate right now, and certainly that may mean specific units are mobilized to assist anyway, but I completely disagree that there is no military response option for a situation like this before days have passed.

My thoughts are with you, Canada. I'm so sorry to hear this is happening.
posted by juliplease at 9:21 AM on October 22, 2014


Reminds me of the October Crisis. Bet Harper is chomping at the bit for his "Just watch me" moment.
posted by Yowser at 9:22 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Looks like Harper's got his platform for the next election.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:22 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Please stay calm, fellow Canadians. Let's not overreact to this. At least one soldier has been shot, and the mere symbolism of shots ringing through those halls is very disturbing, even aside from the deaths and injuries that may be caused.

But please, let's remember who we are and why. Let's remember that violence, so often, brings more violence. Let's remember that kindness builds kindness. Let's remember what we aspire to be in this world: a proud, hard-working, kind people. Not a fearful, reactive people.

And let's remember the call by former Prime Minister Jean Chretien, who kept us out of the Iraq War that has made the world a more dangerous place, to allow 50,000 Syrians refugees into Canada immediately. So many people are living under this kind of fear daily, and we would do them and the world a great service by offering some of them refuge. Perhaps just as importantly, it would be a shocking gesture of generosity and solidarity. ISIS is an awful group, and all signs suggest that they or their allies are behind this and the recent attack in Quebec, at least in spirit.

So let's support other victims of terrorism and extend a gracious hand to regular Syrians.

As Chretien recently said "I understand that faced with the barbarism of the Islamic State, many Canadians want their leaders to respond swiftly. It is a natural reaction and is praiseworthy." So let's respond swiftly with a bravery that no one is expecting.

In the propaganda war that is so central to this conflict, ISIS won't know what hit them.


My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.
posted by the thing about it at 9:22 AM on October 22, 2014 [65 favorites]


And they describe different sets of clothes, which confirms the presence of multiple shooters.

Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. You cannot assume that a report from different eyewitnesses is a confirmation or denial until you carefully cross-examine those witnesses. Get camera images from known-site cameras, then you have fast confirmation.

The shooting isn't even over and we're already reacting to things that haven't happened yet. I find that a little weird and freaky.

Why? Because we have multiple histories to look at, and while the shooting makes today bad, bad government reaction makes decades bad.

Globe footage of shoot out in Parliament building

Well, that sure confirms something large, almost certainly a rifle -- listen to the first shot, then all the rest. The rest are pistols. That first one is a long arm firing rifle ammo -- .30-60, .306, NATO 7.62, or a shotgun -- something with a whole bunch of powder.
posted by eriko at 9:26 AM on October 22, 2014


We quite literally have a giant lock on our government building.

And the thing about it. Quoting Jack. I might cry.
posted by aclevername at 9:26 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.

.
posted by Cosine at 9:27 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


To be totally cold about it, I'm surprised, assuming they are jihadis, that they've chosen such an inefficient kind of attack. Small comfort, but considering what it could have been....

To be honest, I'm surprised that terrorists haven't adopted this kind of tactic more often. If the recruits are honestly not afraid to die, then it makes perfect sense to fire aggressively with many smaller attacks, using everyday weapons. Much more effective than planning a few big-ticket attacks: for every "successful" attack like 9/11 or Bali, you have several dozen cases of idiots trying to buy bombs from an undercover FBI agent who's probably literally laughing at you from the other side of a keyboard. No, unremarkable schmoes using plain old rifles shows a chilling grasp of the basic principles of guerilla warfare against a larger enemy: the guerilla must make it so that the enemy cannot sleep, cannot feel safe, cannot move freely, must always deal with your presence.

I mean, of course it's utterly evil, but that much should be obvious. I hope that no terrorist ever develops smarter tactics, but it was bound to happen eventually. Hopefully this is not a trend.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:28 AM on October 22, 2014 [7 favorites]


Note that in UK style parliaments, the Sargent At Arms is the head of the security detail for the whole site, and is almost certainly a trained security agent as well. So, they being armed and able inside the building is completely unsurprising.

Historically, the Sargent at Arms was the only people allowed to be armed in the debating chambers.
posted by eriko at 9:29 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]




"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping." To this day, especially in times of "disaster," I remember my mother's words and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers – so many caring people in this world." -Fred Rogers in his Advice for talking about Tragic Events in the News
posted by Blasdelb at 9:30 AM on October 22, 2014 [30 favorites]


Does anyone have a link to best Canadian-based news livestream on this for those of us in the US? ty.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:30 AM on October 22, 2014


If you were to try to be loving with ISIS they would shoot you in the head.
posted by marienbad at 9:30 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


The GM of the Rideau Centre was saying 15 minutes ago that there have been no shootings INSIDE the mall. Maybe that's changed since, maybe it happened outside and they're being hyper-specific in their statements.

Thanks. The situation is fluid, and the beginnings of news stories are a very chaotic time.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:30 AM on October 22, 2014


jacqueline - here
posted by marienbad at 9:31 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Thanks for Canadian posters providing geographic context for Americans who are unfamiliar with very central Ottawa. Everything is so close! You just sort of take it for granted.

In any case, this is insane and I hope downtown comes out of lockdown safely and swiftly.
posted by Kitteh at 9:31 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


The GM of the Rideau Centre was saying 15 minutes ago that there have been no shootings INSIDE the mall. Maybe that's changed since, maybe it happened outside and they're being hyper-specific in their statements.

Thanks. The situation is fluid, and the beginnings of news stories are a very chaotic time.


And the CBC now echoes the "near the Rideau Centre."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:32 AM on October 22, 2014


FYI, the Rideau Centre, the War Memorial, Chateau Laurier and the Parliament buildings are all within a block of each other.

At its most simple level lock down for Canadian Forces bases means the portion of the base where there was MPs/Commissionaires at the gates will be closed to the public, and vehicles and passengers will be checked one by one instead of just checking the sticker on the windshield. There are probably additional protocols about boosting security at the gates, and I'm sure each brigade has a response team that has been mobilized, I know that CBC has confirmed that a special team (SSF or JTF2 successor?) is being flown in from CFB Valcartier, which is a bit odd given that it would take two hours to get from QC to Ottawa by helicopter.

My biggest concern is that this is happening while a Conservative government is in power.
posted by furtive at 9:32 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


No, unremarkable schmoes using plain old rifles shows a chilling grasp of the basic principles of guerilla warfare against a larger enemy: the guerilla must make it so that the enemy cannot sleep, cannot feel safe, cannot move freely, must always deal with your presence.

See the Beltway Sniper in 2002 -- and realize the only reason he was caught was that he was dumb. And, constraining the availability of weapons is currently politically impossible in the US.
posted by eriko at 9:32 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


"If you were to try to be loving with ISIS they would shoot you in the head."

Yes. If I am going to die anyway there is no harm in appealing to compassion. Even disturbed people can have compassion somewhere inside them.
posted by xarnop at 9:33 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Part of the point of a lockdown is to avoid people from being mistaken as the shooter or the shooter being able to hide amongst people.
posted by srboisvert at 9:34 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


If these buildings are all this close together, it's very possible that a gunshot in one location could be reported from multiple places and give the impression that there were multiple shooters. Guns are LOUD.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:36 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


My biggest concern is that this is happening while a Conservative Harper government is in power.

Steve is getting fitted for his cape as we speak. This is exactly the opportunity he's been champing at the bit to tackle.
posted by Cosine at 9:36 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


To be totally cold about it, I'm surprised, assuming they are jihadis, that they've chosen such an inefficient kind of attack.

No kidding.

Timing of Parliament shootings - an hour later and 200+ MPs and dozens of reporters would have been in hall where shooting took place
posted by Nevin at 9:36 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


JTF2 is the special forces unit tasked with response for Ottawa. They are based nearer by than Valcartier. They do maintain constant readiness for just such an event. They are however, extremely secretive; the press would never be told (intentionally) about their movements.
posted by bonehead at 9:37 AM on October 22, 2014


The first thing this reminded me of was the 2001 Indian Parliament attack, but thankfully this is nowhere near the scale of that.
posted by homunculus at 9:37 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Steve is getting fitted for his cape as we speak. This is exactly the opportunity he's been champing at the bit to tackle.

I think Andrew Coyne said it best:

Blocking anyone making cheap partisan points about this.
posted by Nevin at 9:39 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


the Sargent At Arms is the head of the security detail for the whole site, and is almost certainly a trained security agent as well. So, they being armed and able inside the building is completely unsurprising.

I'm not surprised that the Sergeant at Arms was armed. He is a former Mountie. I was more surprised that he was directly involved in the shoot out. Out of everything so far, that one detail felt like a movie trope where the police chief pulls a gun from his desk to join the fight.
posted by thecjm at 9:41 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


let's not generalize about young Muslims

I have several young Muslim people working for me, in my lab in Ottawa, currently under the shelter in place orders like everyone else.They are as appalled as anyone by the actions of the nut yesterday, and are praying for the soldier shot today.
posted by bonehead at 9:43 AM on October 22, 2014 [25 favorites]


Once again, seeing the awesomeness of Canadian people regarding this awful event is making me really glad you guys are my adopted country.
posted by Kitteh at 9:43 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


That CBC live stream is a model of restraint and adults speaking intelligently. If that were CNN (and especially FOX) that stream would be filled with wild, uninformed speculations presented as unalloyed fact.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:44 AM on October 22, 2014 [13 favorites]


Woah.... let's not generalize about young Muslims. Please.

The ISIS MO is to specifically to exploit the disillusionment of younger muslims about Western society. I'm not saying all young muslims are going to become ISIS members. I'm saying it's harder for ISIS to exploit disillusionment if they feel like loved and valued members of society rather than social outcasts because of their faith.
posted by Talez at 9:44 AM on October 22, 2014 [10 favorites]


Stay classy, Gazette.

And yeah, props to the CBC livestream. It's good to hear calm people talking.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:45 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


That CBC live stream is a model of restraint and adults speaking intelligently. If that were CNN (and especially FOX) that stream would be filled with wild, uninformed speculations presented as unalloyed fact.

Take a look at Google news. The US media are going batshit (and more than just the usual bad ones).
posted by srboisvert at 9:46 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


That CBC live stream is a model of restraint and adults speaking intelligently.

I nearly laughed. Mansbridge asked some talking head "What conclusions can we draw from this event?"

Response: "Nothing. We don't know anything yet."
posted by GuyZero at 9:47 AM on October 22, 2014 [32 favorites]


At least we'll spared a bad taste pun at the opening of As It Happens. Actually, can we just be spared As It Happens?
posted by Kitteh at 9:48 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


The ISIS insurgent MO is to specifically to exploit the disillusionment of younger muslims people about Western society the society they are trying to destroy.

Fixed that for you. There is absolutely nothing original about the ISIS playbook. They just scrawled out whatever was written on the cover and put their own name on it. Mao Tse Tung used, the IRA used it, GG is using it, but it's always the same -- find disillusioned young people, them that that it's X's fault, give them weapons and tell them to go "avenge" themselves.
posted by eriko at 9:49 AM on October 22, 2014 [7 favorites]


Come on, the As It Happens pun is the highlight of any Canadian's day.
posted by GuyZero at 9:49 AM on October 22, 2014 [9 favorites]


Turns out the soldier shot at the War Memorial was one of the Sentinels of that Memorial. In terms of "pissing off a bunch of people" that's a really big hit. It also explains why there was a soldier there, there are always soldiers there.
posted by eriko at 9:52 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


I noticed in that video the people were running towards the gunfire, not away from it. I am confident in our police and military's ability to handle these murderous criminals. However the future of democracy and human rights in Canada now depends on how the rest of us do our part to protect it in the face of the propaganda, fear and paranoia which is going to be spread in the next little while.
posted by Poldo at 9:52 AM on October 22, 2014 [10 favorites]


Come on, the As It Happens pun is the highlight of any Canadian's day.

GuyZero, I apparently have not acclimated enough to my home because NOOOOOOOOO. ;)
posted by Kitteh at 9:52 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Nevin: You really think it's a cheap point to realize that how this leader will handle such a situation is an order of magnitude more self-serving and conniving than other leaders Canada has had in the past?
posted by Cosine at 9:54 AM on October 22, 2014


Cosine, I think it's more the disgust that a lot of us feel with the equivalent:

Why the bombings mean that we must support my politics
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:57 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


via NBC: Ottawa hospital says it has received 3 patients, 2 of which are in stable condition
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:57 AM on October 22, 2014


There is absolutely nothing original about the ISIS playbook

True, that. If you haven't done so already, take a bit of time to watch Robb Leech's My Brother The Islamist.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:57 AM on October 22, 2014


Oh my god. One of my best friends is an EMT in Ottawa.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:58 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Cosine: way too soon.

Vox has a good summary of what's known at this point.
posted by russilwvong at 9:58 AM on October 22, 2014


Come on, the As It Happens pun is the highlight of any Canadian's day.

Jeff Douglas has ruined AIH for me. Used to listen to it every day (thanks to the wonderful Barbara Budd) but now that show is dead to me.
posted by Nevin at 9:59 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Lemurrhea: That only applies if Harper is a piece of shit because he is conservative, he is just a piece of shit naturally, I couldn't care less that he's conservative, Canada has had plenty of good leaders who were also conservative.
posted by Cosine at 9:59 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Well I'm no fan of Harper but let's wait until he actually does something before we condemn him for it. There's enough stuff without needing to make things up.
posted by GuyZero at 9:59 AM on October 22, 2014 [14 favorites]


Although we don't have any information yet on the shooters or their motivations, I won't be surprised if it's at least partially motivated by Canada's support of the US and US foreign policy.

As an American, I feel just terrible that our closest ally would be attacked for that -- well, terrible that y'all would be attacked at all, but extra terrible and guilty if it turns out to be because y'all have been such good friends and loyal allies to us. :(

<3 Canada
posted by Jacqueline at 10:00 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Could we maybe leave the partisan stuff aside? Please? At least until it's over?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:01 AM on October 22, 2014 [16 favorites]


Ottawa hospital says it has received 3 patients, 2 of which are in stable condition

This is worrying. AFP has tweeted that the soldier shot had died, but I'm waiting for official confirmation from the military.
posted by Kabanos at 10:01 AM on October 22, 2014


Guy: Agreed, sorry, just a bit worked up, no more commenting.
posted by Cosine at 10:01 AM on October 22, 2014


CBC reporting three is hospital, two stable, no info on the third. They are also reporting that one suspect was detained for matching the description and then released after a search.
posted by eriko at 10:02 AM on October 22, 2014


Soldier guarding the Memorial, from the Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders in Hamilton, has died.

.
posted by Lemurrhea at 10:03 AM on October 22, 2014


AFP has tweeted that the soldier shot had died, but I'm waiting for official confirmation from the military.

CBC is reporting that a senior member of the government, Jason Kenney (sp?) has tweeted his condolences. So the word that someone has been killed has apparently reached the Cabinet.
posted by eriko at 10:03 AM on October 22, 2014


Kabanos, this Canadian official has reported that the soldier has died. (Sorry, I don't know Canadian politics at all, so I don't know if he is official enough)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on October 22, 2014


r317, Kenney is a Cabinet minister.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:05 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Soldier guarding the Memorial, from the Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders in Hamilton, has died.

Man that sucks. I saw a photo of two Highlanders standing before the Cenotaph on Twitter. The poster said s/he had taken the photo about 20 minutes before the first shots were fired. So one of those men is dead.
posted by Nevin at 10:05 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Kenny is very senior, in the government's highest circle of power. This is as unofficially official as it can be.
posted by bonehead at 10:06 AM on October 22, 2014


Globe and Mail was reporting the soldier dead earlier, but then later reports had him in stable condition. It could be that these new reports of his death (particularly the twitter condolences), are just aftershocks of the earlier mistake.

We don't know anything yet.
posted by 256 at 10:06 AM on October 22, 2014


.
posted by Cyrie at 10:06 AM on October 22, 2014


I noticed in that video the people were running towards the gunfire, not away from it. I am confident in our police and military's ability to handle these murderous criminals. However the future of democracy and human rights in Canada now depends on how the rest of us do our part to protect it in the face of the propaganda, fear and paranoia which is going to be spread in the next little while.

Our current PM and knowing that Canadians vary in their views aside, I feel safe in saying that I absolutely have faith in you guys in your responses, cultural/political/etc. I honestly do. For all the similarities we share with my native Americans, people are still amazedly and wonderfully different here.

I was sitting on the fence about dual citizenship, but I think it's time I went ahead and applied.
posted by Kitteh at 10:08 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


John Williamson, a Conservative MP, just tweeted that the Conservative caucus was informed that the soldier shot at the War Memorial had died. (The hospital patient in stable condition is probably the guard shot at Parliament Hill.)

.
posted by russilwvong at 10:09 AM on October 22, 2014




Very sad news.

.
posted by Kabanos at 10:12 AM on October 22, 2014


Well I'm no fan of Harper but let's wait until he actually does something before we condemn him for it.

Stephen Harper's government introduced the legislation that scrapped the long gun registry less than three years ago. Can I again condemn him for that, on the day that a maniac with a long gun is apparently stalking Parliament Hill?
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 10:13 AM on October 22, 2014 [8 favorites]


Please don't be ISIS. Please don't be ISIS.

Didn't Canada just send a half dozen CF-18s over there to strafe and bomb anyone in ISIS territory who looks like a militant?
posted by fredludd at 10:14 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Turns out the soldier shot at the War Memorial was one of the Sentinels of that Memorial. In terms of "pissing off a bunch of people" that's a really big hit. It also explains why there was a soldier there, there are always soldiers there.


There have always been soldiers there only since 2006, when a drunk guy pissed on the Memorial during Canada Day celebrations.
posted by cardboard at 10:14 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Can I again condemn him for that, on the day that a maniac with a long gun is apparently stalking Parliament Hill?

I don't think there's any evidence yet that the people who perpetrated these acts are Canadian.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:14 AM on October 22, 2014


Didn't Canada just send a half dozen CF-18s over there to strafe and bomb anyone in ISIS territory who looks like a militant?

I don't know about the second half of you question there, but yes 6 CF-18's and a couple of support aircraft were deployed yesterday. Let's just say they are doing more to help the people of Kobani than our NATO allies the Turks are.

BTW, CF personnel being told not to wear uniforms off base.
posted by Nevin at 10:16 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


The soldier who died and first responders who tried to save him.

And the seemingly random passerby (at least, she's not dressed like an EMT) giving CPR. Brought tears to my eyes.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:17 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]




And the seemingly random passerby (at least, she's not dressed like an EMT) giving CPR. Brought tears to my eyes.

You can see her briefcase on the sidewalk where she dropped it.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:21 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


And actually, there's two--no, three--random civilians helping out. Go Canada.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:23 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Kurichina: Wow, never heard that before. Has anyone ever been more Canadian than Herb Bushkowsky? Not the sort of guy I'd want to mess with!
posted by Yowser at 10:25 AM on October 22, 2014


The Guardian is doing it here.

And why am I not surprised (from my perspective, in Canada but more than three thousand miles away from the situation) that The Guardian is thus far the most lucid, succinct, unconfused reportage I've yet come across?
posted by philip-random at 10:26 AM on October 22, 2014


Also, from context, at least one of the first responders looks like your stereotypical Ottawa office worker, from her overall look and clothing.
posted by Yowser at 10:27 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Maple Leafs/Senators game in Ottawa tonight has been postponed. The Leafs are in one of the downtown hotels that is locked down.
posted by dry white toast at 10:28 AM on October 22, 2014


Seriousness Level: High. Toronto/Ottawa NHL game postponed tonight.
posted by eriko at 10:29 AM on October 22, 2014 [9 favorites]


So weird: Conflicting reports about the soldier at the TotUS being dead. Jason Kenny (and others in the government?) saying he's dead. Media can't confirm.
posted by dry white toast at 10:32 AM on October 22, 2014


A shooting also happened at the National Assembly in Quebec City in 1984. The sergeant at arms talked the shooter down (after 3 were dead and 13 injured, unfortunately). CBC link.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:35 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's remotely possible that Kenney has it right (one hopes, at least, that Cabinet is being given concrete data but that may be too much to hope for) and the media are trying to wait until the family can be notified privately?

Kenney jumped the gun maybe is what I'm saying. I figure if you're in the Forces you'd tell your family PDQ if you've been honoured by being chosen to guard the Memorial.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:35 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


My heart goes out to Canada.
. for the victims and their loved ones.
posted by doctornemo at 10:35 AM on October 22, 2014


RCMP press conference at 1400 EDT.

Jason Kenny (and others in the government?) saying he's dead. Media can't confirm.

One report I had was that the Conservative Caucus was told that the soldier had died, so all the MPs and such reporting that are either reporting that from the Caucus or from talking to someone who was there.

I'm not saying that there's much hope, but there is a single-to-many source, and the many could have easily gotten the attention of the press, being government officials or MPs.

and the media are trying to wait until the family can be notified privately?

Typically, you don't hold the information that there has been a death, you *do* withhold the identity of the victim until relatives have been informed. Note that nobody has said "X has died", the've all said "The soldier that was shot died."
posted by eriko at 10:38 AM on October 22, 2014


I think this may be the quintessentially Canadian thing from Kurichina's link:

While they waited for paramedics to arrive, [responding officer] Denouden cradled Crawford’s head in his own arms, and wept, asking Crawford why he’d done it, assuring him that police hadn’t wanted to shoot him.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:39 AM on October 22, 2014 [8 favorites]


So weird: Conflicting reports about the soldier at the TotUS being dead.

I think it's important to be patient right now. Even government officials are not a very reliable source without knowing who briefed them and what they based their info on.

Nothing is harmed by waiting to report, but real harm can be done by rushing.
posted by muddgirl at 10:39 AM on October 22, 2014


Agreed muddgirl. I don't honestly understand why Conservative ministers are saying anything.
posted by dry white toast at 10:42 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Can someone smarter than me explain why the hashtag is #hw?
posted by aclevername at 10:44 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


The RCMP is about to hold a press conference - hopefully some solid facts will come out shortly.
posted by Paladin1138 at 10:44 AM on October 22, 2014


(Parliament) Hill Watch. Probably to save as many characters as possible.
posted by jeather at 10:45 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


I don't honestly understand why Conservative ministers are saying anything.

They're hip with the social medias.
posted by GuyZero at 10:45 AM on October 22, 2014


Hill Watch maybe?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:45 AM on October 22, 2014


aclevername - I'm finding more info using #ottawaShooting
posted by Paladin1138 at 10:46 AM on October 22, 2014


Apologies if it's been posted already, but here's a visual of the geographic scope of where events are taking place.

The Rideau Centre is just off the picture to the right.
posted by dry white toast at 10:46 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


I mean, compared to the American media, Canadian journalists are being models of restraint, so I don't intend my last comment to chastise anyone in particular.
posted by muddgirl at 10:46 AM on October 22, 2014


Okay, to the idiot who told CBC that this was Canada's 9/11, you are about 348 people short of 9/11, if you taken into account the difference in population between the US and Canada.

There are about 180 Canadians killed by firearm violence in Canada, so far, we might have had two, and I don't know if that stat would include justifiable homicide. So far, todays actions, as horrible as they are, won't even make a noticeable change in the annual firearm death statistics.

This isn't 9/11. This isn't 7/7. This is an idiot with a gun.

(Parliament) Hill Watch. Probably to save as many characters as possible.

Yeah. CBC does this quite a bit. It took me a sec to realized that PMSH was "Prime Minister Stephen Harper(sp?)" and not the postmeridian shell.
posted by eriko at 10:47 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


Not sure if it matters but just heard back from my friend. Not on ambulance duty today. Says mood is extremely busy but subdued in the office/HQ/whatever you call it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:47 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


This is an idiot with a gun.

Well, it's, from what we believe, more than one idiot with a gun.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:48 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


This isn't 9/11. This isn't 7/7. This is an idiot with a gun.

Well, this is probably an idiot with a gun, maybe a couple or three idiots.
posted by eriko at 10:48 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Come on, the As It Happens pun is the highlight of any Canadian's day.

Jeff Douglas has ruined AIH for me.


My AIH highlight these days is the words "and sitting in for Jeff Douglas, ..."
posted by Flashman at 10:49 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


You kids these days. You don't know anything if you didn't hear Enright doing AIH. He'd openly mock guests.
posted by GuyZero at 10:51 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


From MeFi's own mightygodking: People saying Canada has "lost its innocence" because when we detained Japanese Canadians in WW2 we did it with a sense of childlike wonder

Followed by...

I kid, I kid, because what people mean when they say Canada has "lost its innocence" is "now we have to be scared of Muslims," full stop
posted by dry white toast at 10:52 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


My gut feeling is that this is one shooter, with a single shot or semi auto hunting rifle. He fired at the soldier, ran into the parliament building, fired once at parliament security forces, and then was shot and killed.
posted by eriko at 10:55 AM on October 22, 2014


Ottawa police have tweeted that the soldier has died. Family is being notified, the name won't be released until that's done. One male suspect confirmed dead, no other update on injuries.
posted by eriko at 10:56 AM on October 22, 2014


Well I hope so. Having a loose shooter out and about is the worst possible outcome as it will have Ottawa on edge for days or longer.
posted by GuyZero at 10:56 AM on October 22, 2014


I don't get how people can hate Jeff Douglas but love Barbara Budd. They are both the same lame, unfunny, needless presence on that show. I was so glad when she left and so disappointed that what we got was more of the same.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 10:56 AM on October 22, 2014






Also, no shooting at or near the Rideau Centre.
posted by dry white toast at 10:58 AM on October 22, 2014


Official confirmations:

- No incident at Rideau Centre
- One victim killed - Soldier at the War Memorial
- One suspect killed
posted by WinnipegDragon at 10:58 AM on October 22, 2014


Interesting. No confirmation yet that there are multiple shooters. We'll have to wait for the briefing.
posted by Lemurrhea at 10:59 AM on October 22, 2014


With the Rideau Centre out of the picture, that makes a single shooter much more plausible.
posted by cardboard at 10:59 AM on October 22, 2014


I kid, I kid, because what people mean when they say Canada has "lost its innocence" is "now we have to be scared of Muslims," full stop

No, when people say that "Canada has lost its innocence" they are (in my mind) saying that now Canada has to be on guard for terrorist attacks, full-stop. There was the sense that Canada was somehow isolated from this sort of thing.

Which is of course, totally untrue. There was the FLQ Crisis, attacks on both the Edmonton and Quebec assemblies, the Squamish Five, the Air India Bombing (which included a bomb that killed a baggage handler in Tokyo).

The Ecole Politechnique massacre should also be considered a terrorist attack. The people running around Ottawa are essentially Marc Lepines, frustrated, socially isolated, and murderously wrongheaded about things.

I think there is a subspecies of Canadians out there that believe all that stuff about us being a safe, prosperous, just society. I suppose we are compared to many parts of the world, but the Canadian myth of niceness is indeed a bit of a myth.
posted by Nevin at 11:00 AM on October 22, 2014 [11 favorites]


Yeah it sure seems like it's going to be one disturbed individual.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 11:01 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Big question is whether shooting at the War Memorial happened before the incident in the halls of Centre Block, where the shooter was killed. It initially sounded like they were simultaneous.
posted by dry white toast at 11:02 AM on October 22, 2014


Well I hope so.

Yeah. There was one and only one rifle round fired on that tape from inside the building, but that doesn't mean that he didn't drop it and start firing back with a pistol, but it suggests that he couldn't reload it quickly, or he would have kept sending the big rounds downrange.

I'll bet the "shooting" at the Rideau Center was just hearing the shot that killed the soldier (assumption is that he used the same weapon against him.) That's a loud rifle, and if you're used to not hearing shots or just hearing pistol shots, then it would sound really close to you.

Details are thin, but details that there might be multiple shooters are *extremely* thin. One of the "shooters" was a bystander who was wearing similar clothes, and was released immediately after search.

Im sure there was a report of a shooting at the Rideau Center, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a shooting elsewhere that was heard there, and if the police said that they had "a report of a shooting", that's probably a perfectly factual statement -- one person calling from there saying they heard a shooting would generate that.
posted by eriko at 11:04 AM on October 22, 2014


News conference has yet to start. CBC will switch the second it starts.
posted by Yowser at 11:05 AM on October 22, 2014


"Terror consists mostly of useless cruelties perpetrated by frightened people in order to reassure themselves." ~ Friedrich Engels, Letter to Marx (4 September 1870)
posted by Fizz at 11:05 AM on October 22, 2014 [9 favorites]


To be clear though: Police say their operations are ongoing. So at the very least, police are acting on the basis that there is more than one shooter.
posted by dry white toast at 11:06 AM on October 22, 2014


Jesus... that picture ThatCanadianGirl posted upstream just destroyed me. I'm so sorry, Canadian friends.
posted by TrishaLynn at 11:07 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Mansbridge is calling the lockdown "unprecedented" since the War Measures Act. He sounds pretty upset about it.
posted by Lemurrhea at 11:07 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Mansbridge says Chateau Laurier lockdown has been lifted.
posted by dry white toast at 11:09 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


Yeah it sure seems like it's going to be one disturbed individual.

That's what it sounds like to this armchair analyst. There's no reports (yet?) of any kind of manifesto or anything. My guess is a disturbed person with a grudge against the government and/or the Forces; a link between this and the killings in Quebec seems tenuous at this point. OTOH, could be copycat-ish. OTGH, if it is part of a pattern, that's terrifying. I live across the street from a Forces armoury, I have relatives near CFB Trenton and friends near CFB Esquimalt. Let's hope reason prevails.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:11 AM on October 22, 2014


It initially sounded like they were simultaneous.

If my rifle theory is correct, he could have already been very near or in the building and shot the soldier from there. This would also explain why, in that video clip, the police and such were approaching against the walls, weapons drawn -- because they heard the first shot.

(looks at maps)

No, I don't see a shot there. It's well within range (200ish m) but the trees around the memorial block the line of sight. If it's one, though, I suspect he would have fired at the soldier from across Wellington Street, then headed up a bike path between the treeline on the river and the East Block of the parliament buildings.

Or, thinking further, we don't know *which building* that shooting happened in, do we? If it was the East Block building, he wouldn't have had far to go at all -- a couple of hundred feet.
posted by eriko at 11:12 AM on October 22, 2014


The footage is definitely from Centre Block.
posted by dry white toast at 11:14 AM on October 22, 2014


Mansbridge just said the video clip takes place in or near the Hall of Honors (sp?).
posted by TrishaLynn at 11:14 AM on October 22, 2014


Okay, no shoot down the East Block theory, that video was shot in the main building. Wiki has a picture of the main hallway. That means he needs to move at least 500-700 feet between the two shootings.
posted by eriko at 11:14 AM on October 22, 2014


From the Guardian piece it seemed like the shooting happened in the Centre Block--where the actual House sits. The Hall of Honour (or is it Court?) is the entranceway, Lib and Con caucuses were meeting nearby.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:14 AM on October 22, 2014


..

For the two soldiers who died over the last two days. It isn't enough, but I don't know what else to say about something so senseless and wrong.

May this be the very last time some idiot tries to force a change in Canada's foreign policy with the barrel of a gun.
posted by Kevin Street at 11:15 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


RCMP says shooting in Centre Block happened after the shooting at the War Memorial. One shooter very plausible.
posted by dry white toast at 11:17 AM on October 22, 2014


Sorry, Ottawa Police Chief saying that.
posted by dry white toast at 11:18 AM on October 22, 2014


That video was shot in the hall where, most recently, Jack Layton lay in state. It's chilling to see it in this context.
posted by bonehead at 11:18 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


BUT, downtown core is still not secure.
posted by dry white toast at 11:18 AM on October 22, 2014


The victim was a member of the Canadian armed forces. Finally confirmed. A male suspect is now deceased. Sounds like they're not jumping to conclusions about any other details.
posted by Yowser at 11:18 AM on October 22, 2014


May this be very last time some idiot tries to force a change in Canada's foreign policy with the barrel of a gun.

We have less than no idea what motivated this at all, let alone whether it was as specific as an attempt to change foreign policy.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:20 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


I love how they said that there's stuff they won't be able to confirm at all at this point in time (and unspoken, "So don't ask, idiots.") Very respectful and it's a statement I can respect.
posted by TrishaLynn at 11:20 AM on October 22, 2014


French version of the press conference isn't an exact translation as far as I can tell. Soldier was from Hamilton.
posted by Yowser at 11:21 AM on October 22, 2014


A second shooting victim is being reported by the CBC as one of the Hill (centre block) Guards. He was shot in the leg, in stable but not life threatening condition.
posted by bonehead at 11:22 AM on October 22, 2014


This is an idiot with a gun.

Well, it's, from what we believe, more than one idiot with a gun.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:48 PM on October 22 [1 favorite +] [!]


Being reported on Boston News sites that these are Islamist Jihadists, possibly related to the hit and run the other day.
posted by Gungho at 11:22 AM on October 22, 2014


Sounds like the OPP isn't going to be involved much.
posted by Yowser at 11:23 AM on October 22, 2014


Hypothesis by CBC that Gatineau police would be or are in Ottawa. OPP is involved but I think the unsaid assumption is that RCMP is in control.
posted by Yowser at 11:25 AM on October 22, 2014


Being reported on Boston News sites that these are Islamist Jihadists, possibly related to the hit and run the other day.

That's not really surprising. There is, so far as I can tell, no such information being reported as fact in Canada, in the Guardian, or by the actual cops in charge of the scene.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:25 AM on October 22, 2014 [11 favorites]


Ottawabs told to remain in their buildings until further notice.
posted by Yowser at 11:26 AM on October 22, 2014


Sounds like the OPP isn't going to be involved much.

They wouldn't be. Primary responsibility is RCMP, with CF backup. Secondary control by Ottawa Police. The SQ is involved in Gatineau/Hull. They all have mutual aid agreements. Officers will be moved around as needed, I suspect. There isn't a large OPP presence in Ottawa, however.
posted by bonehead at 11:26 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Origins as yet not fully known, causes as yet not fully understood. -Jim Watson
posted by Yowser at 11:27 AM on October 22, 2014


Being reported on Boston News sites that these are Islamist Jihadists, possibly related to the hit and run the other day.

Please, if you're going to report on reports, at least provide a link. But the best thing would be not to report on speculative reports.
posted by muddgirl at 11:28 AM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


These reporters are incredibly stupid if they think the spokesmen will announce if there was more than one gunman.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 11:30 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Toronto (Star?) with an "asshole question" right off the bat. Yuck.
posted by Yowser at 11:30 AM on October 22, 2014


.
.

For the soldiers killed yesterday and today.

I happened to walk past a commons-area TV where I work and was very displeased to see the Global News running text read "CANADA UNDER ATTACK." That is completely irresponsible and they should be censured harshly for it. This is sad and disturbing news coming out of Parliament Hill, but I do not want any of our news sources whipping people into a frenzy.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:31 AM on October 22, 2014 [12 favorites]


I can't handle these journalist questions. No more transcribing from me.
posted by Yowser at 11:32 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Please, if you're going to report on reports, at least provide a link. But the best thing would be not to report on speculative reports.
posted by muddgirl at 2:28 PM on October 22 [2 favorites +] [!]

i just went back to the Boston Herald and it seems they have backed off that assertion as I can no longer find the report.
posted by Gungho at 11:32 AM on October 22, 2014


One more piece of valid info- suspect name is known, won't be released yet.
posted by Yowser at 11:34 AM on October 22, 2014


Officials are doing their best to turn these garbage questions into valid info. Terrorist threat level did not change after the earlier incident. Has been at medium for several years.
posted by Yowser at 11:36 AM on October 22, 2014


I want to hug Peter Mansbridge. I love you, CBC.
posted by kitcat at 11:37 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


There is one asshole journalist who really wants this to eh terrorism. They should have thrown her out for being such an asshole
posted by Yowser at 11:37 AM on October 22, 2014


No official confirmation of any other shooters, per CBC.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:38 AM on October 22, 2014


CBC and Police officials are handling this in a decidedly Canadian way.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2014


The media would not be doing their job if they didn't ask questions about the number of suspects and such. It's fine that police aren't answering, better that they don't...but they are valid questions.
posted by dry white toast at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Conference over.
posted by Yowser at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2014


Dry: there was one journo(the asshole in question) who kept interrupting . This after I believe the mc said one question at a time.
posted by Yowser at 11:40 AM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


I want to hug Peter Mansbridge. I love you, CBC.

Do you want to hug Peter Mansbridge, Y/N? is actually a question on the citizenship exam.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:42 AM on October 22, 2014 [18 favorites]


Near as I can tell, the CBC coverage presently consists of Peter Mansbridge and Evan Soloman taking turns repeating the same confirmed facts and saying they're working on getting more facts.
posted by dry white toast at 11:46 AM on October 22, 2014


This is why I hate watching breaking news on TV.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 11:49 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


I watch Twitter and Metafilter for my breaking news.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 11:50 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


This is why I hate watching breaking news on TV.

This is why I don't watching breaking news on TV.
posted by philip-random at 11:52 AM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Just because it's being discussed elsewhere, a piece about the attack on the Quebec soldier by Glenn Greenwald on the state's media response to violence against uniformed soldiers.

These homicidal criminals have so far only targeted personally innocent Canadian Forces members. That the Toronto Transit Commission is doing security checks on civilians in a city 600km away seems like toxic security theater.
posted by anthill at 11:55 AM on October 22, 2014


Reminder: On The Media's Breaking News Consumer's Handbook.

4. There's almost never a second shooter.
posted by dry white toast at 11:57 AM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


the TTC is doing what now

(article is opening in another tab, ignore if it's fully answered there)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:57 AM on October 22, 2014


Woah woah woah there anthill. No one has said the TTC is doing security checks. They've just said riders will see a more visible security presence. Those two things are miles apart.
posted by dry white toast at 11:58 AM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Statement from the TTC. Says absolutely nothing about "doing security checks on civilians."

Well, that's a useful reminder about how changing a word or two causes speculation to get out of hand.
posted by dry white toast at 12:01 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


This is why I don't watching breaking news on TV.

24-hours news cycles make people crazy. A friend was due to be interviewed on BBC this evening on an unrelated issue, and his interview was bumped for coverage of the situation in Ottawa. He mentioned it on Facebook and a mutual Canadian friend filled him in on "hearing it live" when he was on his way to a dental appointment at 10:00 AM. Given how this all began this morning, when a man is shot on the street at 9:52 AM in Ottawa, it is not national news under eight minutes later.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:02 PM on October 22, 2014


Ah, my bad, fair enough. Pagliaro's report was about a lone City Hall security officer, probably concerned and trying to decide how to respond.
posted by anthill at 12:03 PM on October 22, 2014


While I respect Glenn Greenwald, man that article rubs me the wrong way. Especially this:

Regardless of one’s views on the justifiability of Canada’s lengthy military actions, it’s not the slightest bit surprising or difficult to understand why people who identify with those on the other end of Canadian bombs and bullets would decide to attack the military responsible for that violence.
posted by Nevin at 12:04 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Yes Nevin, it's rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, of course. To be fair, it was written by 1) a non-Canadian, 2) who does journalism about countries with much greater death counts than Canada, 3) before today's shooting.

I'm curious to hear what Metafilter thinks of the article. As reliable news about today's shooting trickles in, can the public consider causality independent of moral justification?
posted by anthill at 12:07 PM on October 22, 2014


Well the public can, if the public is uninterested in preventing such incidents in the future as opposed to just blaming.

Oh, shit.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:09 PM on October 22, 2014


I can understand why there might be increased security in Toronto since Stephen Harper was supposed to appear in a ceremony with Malala Yousafzai conferring honorary Canadian citizenship on her later on today. I suspect that any security detail, anywhere in the country, is working at a heightened level of watchfulness today.
posted by angiep at 12:10 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


CNN headlines say "NUMEROUS GUNMEN".

I think CNN is indeed technically correct that 1+4i gunmen is "numerous" in the sense of complex numbers.
posted by GuyZero at 12:11 PM on October 22, 2014 [11 favorites]


I suspect that any security detail, anywhere in the country, is working at a heightened level of watchfulness today.

Not Rob Ford's.
posted by GuyZero at 12:12 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


With regard to the Greenwald article, I suppose it's true in the sense that, if you consider yourself to be at war with Canada, then it is more legitimate to target a soldier than to target a civilian, but Greenwald does really blithely accepts a) the legitimacy of Martin Couture-Rouleau's "cause" and b) his identification with that cause.

Couture-Rouleau has never been at the other end of a Canadian bomb or bullet, and as someone who opposes Canada's involvement in imperialist wars, I can safely say that they we have in no way come close to exhausting the non-violent methods of opposing those wars.

A soldier may be more legitimate than a civilian, but Couture-Rouleau does not have a legitimate war to be fighting.
posted by Kurichina at 12:13 PM on October 22, 2014 [7 favorites]


Is it weird that that pisses me off so much about this? Yousafzai gets shafted again because of shitbags with guns. (Or a shitbag with a gun).
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:13 PM on October 22, 2014


I'm sure Yousafzai's ceremony will be rescheduled. But she'll overcome these idiots. She has before. She will again.
posted by GuyZero at 12:15 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


I know, but you know what I mean yeah?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:16 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Based on past experience it is important not to get worked up over the breaking news stories. On 9-11 in DC the media reported numerous aircraft crashes in DC. The Navy Yard shooting was reported as multiple shooters. If you are in the incident scene shelter and stay safe. Otherwise stop searching twitter, etc for every rumor and getting worked up on speculation. You will feel tons better if you turn it off for a day or two.
posted by humanfont at 12:17 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


We could all learn a lot from the way Malala responds to these assholes.
posted by dry white toast at 12:17 PM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


In sum, the national mood and discourse in Canada is virtually identical to what prevails in every Western country whenever an incident like this happens: shock and bewilderment...followed by rage and demand for still more actions of militarism and freedom-deprivation.

Greenwald does not 'get' Canadians at all.
posted by kitcat at 12:18 PM on October 22, 2014 [17 favorites]


>May this be very last time some idiot tries to force a change in Canada's foreign policy with the barrel of a gun.

We have less than no idea what motivated this at all, let alone whether it was as specific as an attempt to change foreign policy.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:20 PM


Man, talk about a total failure to live up to your username.
posted by workerant at 12:18 PM on October 22, 2014 [11 favorites]


Greenwald has "very knowledgeable guy who has come to think he knows everything" syndrome.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:20 PM on October 22, 2014 [7 favorites]


Interesting guy this Mr. Vickers.

Kevin Vickers (photo), a 29-year vet of the RCMP, has served in as the Parliamentary Sergeant-at-arms since 2006. He's 58 and recently won a shooting competition with his 150 peers on the Hill security force.

Notably, from wikipedia:
In 2009, Vickers was honoured by the Association of Progressive Muslims of Canada, for his "long outstanding service to" Canada, and for his "efforts to promote bias-free policing and diversity in the workplace".

In 2011, he was honoured by the Canadian branch of the World Sikh Organization for his decision that Sikh Members of Parliament could wear their kirpans in the House. In 2013, when Idle No More protestors arrived at Parliament Hill, Vickers participated in a ritual exchange of tobacco with Serpent River First Nation chief Isadore Day.
posted by bonehead at 12:22 PM on October 22, 2014 [30 favorites]


It should really be emphasized amongst all the angsting that security on Parliament Hill basically worked. Aside from having a more alert security presence at the entrance to the Hill driveway, there's not a lot most reasonable people would have done differently.
posted by dry white toast at 12:22 PM on October 22, 2014 [11 favorites]


Greenwald has "very knowledgeable guy who has come to think he knows everything" syndrome.

Then again, the stuff he must have read as part of his work with Snowden... he knows a lot more about what is going on than I do, that's for sure.
posted by Nevin at 12:23 PM on October 22, 2014


I can't help but imagining a Hollywood action movie version of Vickers' heroism, where he bashes the shooter with his mace and toughly speaks a cool tagline (in both official languages, of course).
posted by Kurichina at 12:25 PM on October 22, 2014 [9 favorites]


If only Vickers could have taken out the shooter with The Mace.
posted by GuyZero at 12:25 PM on October 22, 2014 [8 favorites]


I get what Greenwald is saying. It isn't particularly surprising that someone would decide to attack Canadian soldiers since we're going to Iraq/Syria to attack a group they identify with. But I still think they're terrorists in the dictionary sense of the term, since there is no possible military objective that can be obtained by running down soldiers in a parking lot or sniping them in front of the War Memorial. They're trying to scare us into reconsidering that bombing mission - ie: terrorism.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:26 PM on October 22, 2014 [7 favorites]


Yeah, Vickers is really coming off well in reports. I've heard that he has worked to maintain a very open door policy on the Hill grounds, as a very family-friendly place. That he can balance that and be ready to act when necessary says a lot about him.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:27 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


> Greenwald does not 'get' Canadians at all.

I dunno, let's wait and see how this plays out. The government was working on militarism (FA-18 deployment) and freedom-deprivation (CSEC domestic surveillance) already. While being a majority government means the government doesn't have to say boo, in the upcoming election season there will be temptation to go the "You're with us or you're with the terrorists" route.

It's unlikely that Canada will admit 50,000 refugees displaced by ISIS in response, but that would be a bad-ass response IMHO.
posted by anthill at 12:28 PM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Isn't killing soldiers itself a military objective?
posted by Flashman at 12:28 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Killing a reservist standing honour guard is about the lowest possible military objective you could set. It is, at best, revenge.
posted by GuyZero at 12:30 PM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Vickers has also been lobbying for his officers to be armed at all times, which they are not. I expect that will change.
posted by dry white toast at 12:31 PM on October 22, 2014


Isn't killing soldiers itself a military objective?

Maybe if they're currently occupying your country, but not soldiers nine thousand kilometers away.

Or to put it another way, sabotaging CF-18s would be a military objective, or jamming the copy machines at HQ, but not this.
posted by Kevin Street at 12:31 PM on October 22, 2014


Isn't killing soldiers itself a military objective?

Not unless your goal is attrition. Otherwise it's the exact opposite of a true military objective, in that it's not seeing the forest for the trees. America in Vietnam would be the quintessential example of this, with its concern over raw body counts.

Killing isolated soldiers is more usually an example of terrorism: an attempt to create fear and sap your opponent's will.
posted by Palindromedary at 12:33 PM on October 22, 2014


Security on Parliament Hill is fine, in no small part because our police, armed forces, and various and sundry armed officials are major badasses who will apologize after shooting you in the spine.
posted by Yowser at 12:36 PM on October 22, 2014


Soldiers (in kilts!) are back on guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Solider.
posted by dry white toast at 12:38 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Wow. Vickers is so Canadian. Or at least what most of us aspire to be when we think of the word.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:39 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Soldiers (in kilts!) are back on guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Solider.

Some replies to that tweet suggest the photo is from BEFORE the shooting. (Which suggests that one of those to soldiers....)
posted by dnash at 12:41 PM on October 22, 2014


Some replies to that tweet suggest the photo is from BEFORE the shooting.

Dunno, but there is yellow caution tape visible on the fence. That is not usually there.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:45 PM on October 22, 2014


And here is a news photo from today.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:46 PM on October 22, 2014


Dang, fell victim to the "if it's on my Twitter timeline now, it must have just happened" bias. No cookie for me.
posted by dry white toast at 12:46 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Isn't killing soldiers itself a military objective?

Dropping a plane on the pentagon is also about as military a target as you can pick. I don't really see what the point of the distinction between a so-called 'legitimate' military operation and a terrorist attack.

Either sort of attack is asymmetric warfare, and I guess on some level, it doesn't matter who is doing the attacking or what they're attacking.

There's a few ways to respond:

1) Prevention and police work (when the perpetrating organization is small or the threat is minimal enough that it's not possible or not worth going to war or negotiating -- ie: the Weathermen or the Unibomber)
2) Warfare (Everything from drones to airstrikes to bombing) - when the threat is large enough and concentrated enough that something that actually be accomplished by doing so. -- ie: Isis or Al Queda)
3) Negotiation (When there is actually a party to be negotiated with that has the power to stop the attacks ie: the IRA and the PLO).

Right now, we don't know the nature and motives of the attackers so it's really hard to decide what the correct course of action is.
posted by empath at 12:51 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Some replies to that tweet suggest the photo is from BEFORE the shooting. (Which suggests that one of those to soldiers....)

If the photo is from before the shooting, can the link be removed, at least until the victim's name is released? It would be terrible for his family to find out like that.
posted by randomnity at 12:54 PM on October 22, 2014


TBH, the issue Greenwald is addressing is the application of the Laws of War. If one views IS as a nominally legitimate state, attacking them makes any counterattack fundamentally legitimate.

The trouble is that few actually consider IS, or inchoate groups such as al Qaeda, to be legitimate actors under the Laws of War. To argue that they are is outside the mainstream. Morally, one may consider any counterattack to be justified, but that's not quite the same thing. Clearly, it serves the interests of the existing post-Westphalia nation-states to legitimize only their own military actions, but parsing who is and is not legitimate quickly becomes a thicket.

It should also be noted that the entire rationale for the split between IS and AQ was about attacking the "near enemy" vs. the "far enemy". I rather suspect there won't be much to link this, should it be related (unproven, but I think a reasonable assumption), to the actual structure and leadership of the IS -- it may well be a homegrown operation by radicalized sympathizers, and its nature does suggest a solitary actor.
posted by dhartung at 12:58 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


That's a close match to the Hamilton Argyles (the "the Argyles") dress. They wear a dark Black Watch tartan.

According to other soldiers in the unit, the guards at the Memorial, right in the heart of town, were ceremonial only---their weapons would have been unloaded at the time of the shooting.
posted by bonehead at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2014


Liberal MP John McKay was just arriving as the shooting started, so he wasn't locked down.
Security guards told him, and others coming in at that moment, to put their coats back on and exit. He says he was ushered out behind the historic Library of Parliament, where he says a construction worker coolly suggested that people gathering there should get behind one of the monuments on the Parliament grounds, overlooking the Ottawa River, in case they needed protection from shots fired inside the building. ...

On the scene just outside Centre Block:

"Well, there was one woman who was pretty upset. Another woman [had] a baby carriage and she was crouching behind the monument. The construction guy was the guy with the calm demeanour and kind of herded us a little bit, and I thought he made perfectly good sense. So that was the conversation." ...

On the broader reaction among Canadians and how the country might react:

"As I’m wandering down here, I’m thinking: Boy, this changes a lot of things . . . I hope we don’t yield to paranoia. I hope that, somehow or another, we protect our democracy."
Another quick perspective from Paul Wells.
posted by russilwvong at 1:06 PM on October 22, 2014 [11 favorites]


The Toronto star shows the same photo, with the caption: "Two soldiers stand guard in front of the National War Memorial in Ottawa earlier in the day before a gunman shot one of the soldiers and then fled to Parliament Hill. Photo posted by a Winnipeg high school studying visiting the capitol."
posted by Kabanos at 1:07 PM on October 22, 2014


That's a close match to the Hamilton Argyles (the "the Argyles") dress. They wear a dark Black Watch tartan.

ARGYLLS and Sutherland Highlanders. Argyles are socks.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:07 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Indeed. My bad.
posted by bonehead at 1:12 PM on October 22, 2014


ThatCanadianGirl: The soldier who died and first responders who tried to save him.
I really don't understand why, but regular people doing their bit in a time of crisis really gets to me.

My heart goes out to all Canadians, but especially the family of the fallen.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:13 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


CBS reporting that gunman was Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, a Canadian born in 1982.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:18 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


I really don't understand why, but regular people doing their bit in a time of crisis really gets to me.

It's people running towards danger and chaos when most of us would (understandably) seek shelter. It gets to me too.
posted by dry white toast at 1:19 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


If one views IS as a nominally legitimate state, attacking them makes any counterattack fundamentally legitimate.

What? No. That's not how the laws of war work. It makes any military counterattack that doesn't violate the geneva conventions legitimate. That is a huge difference. Whether the GCs apply to a soldier presumably not engaged or likely to be engaged in hostilities is...complicated, honestly. I could probably accept killing a drone operator, or a long-distance bomber on Cdn soil. Most people on a forward operating base are fair game (not the medics, of course).
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:27 PM on October 22, 2014


Isn't killing soldiers itself a military objective?

Maybe if they're currently occupying your country, but not soldiers nine thousand kilometers away.


Erm....

posted by IndigoJones at 1:31 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


I love this one:

https://postmediaottawacitizen2.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/118747-rcmp-and-ottawa-police-are-searching-for-potential-of2.jpg

That guy on the left, looking nearly invisible in his camel jacket, is the head of Canada's intelligence agency.
posted by 256 at 1:31 PM on October 22, 2014 [10 favorites]


in the upcoming election season there will be temptation to go the "You're with us or you're with the terrorists" route

True, but it won't be easy to drum up that sentiment (at least I hope not). Our patriotism is bound up in being 'not American', which is fraught, but perhaps a very good thing in this situation.

I hope to god Trudeau can rise to the challenge here and not say anything cavalier and foolish right now. I certainly trust Mulcair not to.
posted by kitcat at 1:33 PM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


CBC has the name of the dead soldier as Cpl. Nathan Cirillo.

.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:42 PM on October 22, 2014


That guy on the left, looking nearly invisible in his camel jacket, is the head of Canada's intelligence agency.

I like to imagine there's a secret entrance behind the ad pillar from which he just casually stepped out.
posted by dry white toast at 1:46 PM on October 22, 2014 [15 favorites]




.

Canada, take the high road. Learn from the mistakes made by your friends south of the Canadian border.
posted by Vibrissae at 1:50 PM on October 22, 2014


CBC has the name of the dead soldier as Cpl. Nathan Cirillo.

Indeed, so does Cpl. Cirillo's hometown newspaper. The piece has a moving quote from a local MP who was present and recognized an Argyll boot visible through the cluster of first responders:

"He would have been standing there with an unloaded weapon. It's heartbreaking – young man guarding our memorial . . . the symbolism."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:55 PM on October 22, 2014


One more bit of advice for my Canadian friends. As good as it might feel for you to put your boots up ISIS assholes and fly the Maple Leaf over Syria, don't do it. The momentary satisfaction will be followed by a decade of regret.
posted by humanfont at 1:56 PM on October 22, 2014


Pretty sure the last debate was about "Canadians of convenience" flying the Syrian flag over Canada (which was also bullshit).
posted by GuyZero at 2:00 PM on October 22, 2014


One more bit of advice for my Canadian friends. As good as it might feel for you to put your boots up ISIS assholes and fly the Maple Leaf over Syria, don't do it. The momentary satisfaction will be followed by a decade of regret.

Yeah, well, we've been with NATO in Afghanistan since the very beginning so we have some idea of what it has been like to go to war.
posted by Nevin at 2:01 PM on October 22, 2014 [10 favorites]


The Argylls' facebook page has a photo of Cpl. Cirillo and Cpl. Stevenson standing their post shortly before the shooting. I cannot imagine how Stevenson must feel right now.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:02 PM on October 22, 2014


.

RIP. He was brutally murdered, while posing a threat to no one.

It makes any military counterattack that doesn't violate the geneva conventions legitimate. That is a huge difference.

The GC only applies to countries that signed on:

The Geneva Conventions are multilateral, international treaties. This means that they bind only those nation-states that have signed, ratified, and deposited their ratification with the United Nations.

ISIS has not signed on - quite apart from the issue of whether they are a legitimate state, not having been recognized as such by any other nation or international organization, such as the U.N. Therefore the GC has no bearing on this situation.

The other question would be the legitimacy of military action in the ME, by whatever nation at the moment. By what rights is country X bombing targets in country Y? It could be seen as an act of aggressive war. I am not aware of f.ex. the Syrian government - which is still the legitimately recognized government of an independent country, member of the U.N. - giving anyone but the Iranian government the right to operate militarily in its territorial space (plus Russian military advisors). Syria has not attacked any state, and certainly none that are participating in these military attacks. This is a war of aggression. There is no U.N. authorization for *military* action (as distinct from humanitarian access in certain areas) in Syria at the present time: list of all Syria related U.N. resolutions.

ISIS is not a state actor, so they are neither bound, nor do they benefit from the GC. Quite obviously, they will do whatever it is they feel like, no matter which law says what. It is expected, that when aggressive action is taken in distant places, sometimes that violence comes back.

However, all this is speculation that should not be connected with this tragedy. We have no idea if this incident is in any way connected with the ME. Regardless of the background to this tragedy, our most immediate human empathy must be for the victims and the families.
posted by VikingSword at 2:03 PM on October 22, 2014




Great article advising not rushing to judgement (I really didn't need another reason to roll my eyes at Lukaszuk, but he keeps providing them at regular intervals. What an idiot.)
posted by Kurichina at 2:17 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


It makes any military counterattack that doesn't violate the geneva conventions legitimate.

No, it doesn't. Although that's sort of a No True Scotsman approach. Non-state actors have some coverage under the 1979 codicils. Terrorist attacks are in almost all cases illegal under the Geneva Conventions. It's not at all clear whether an attack on an allegedly unarmed honor guard by non-uniformed actors of an entity that is a non-signatory to the Geneva Conventions can be legitimate at all. (Note that I still assume this is some sort of sui generis act. I'm just discussing what was brought up.)

International law, the body of law that governs states in their relationships with one another, generally struggles to accom-modate non-state actors. The international legal instruments dealing with the laws of war, namely the Geneva Conventions of 1949, the Hague Regulations of 1907, and more modern international conventions seeking to regulate weapons such as the Ottawa Treaty of 1997 banning landmines, were all drafted by states with the regulation of states in mind. These instruments almost exclusively limit ratification to states and do not allow for the accession of non-states. This means that non-state actors, including national liberation movements, face many difficulties when seeking to be bound by and apply IHL provisions in their conflicts, thus limiting the protection available to those fighting and caught up in these conflicts. However, non-state actors are active in various theatres of war and it is therefore vital that a realistic IHL framework that accommodates non-state actors be formulated. -- Human Rights Brief, 2009

Again, what Greenwald is getting at represents a view that is outside the mainstream or what might be tenuously called settled international law.
posted by dhartung at 2:21 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Why is there a conversation going on about military action? We are already involved in Syria. We don't do vengeance warfare. Talk as you like, I guess, I just hope this isn't a microcosm of the national conversation.
posted by kitcat at 2:22 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Every time someone suggest "muzlimz!" I remind them about all the speculation following the Oklahoma City bombing.
posted by GuyZero at 2:23 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Vikingsword, I understand that ISIS hasn't signed on. I would say that there's pretty strong evidence that at least some of the GCs, if not most, are considered jus cogens / preemptory norms, and that it doesn't matter if a state doesn't sign onto them, they are bound nonetheless. That's how you get all of the international criminal tribunals in (say,) Yugoslavia. I should have been more clear.
posted by Lemurrhea at 2:25 PM on October 22, 2014


It's quite likely that ISIS itself wasn't involved in these attacks, since the modern world doesn't cleave into neat ideological divisions like it used to. They may have decided to do these killings on their own, or they may have been egged on by fellow travelers on the Internet. It could have been coordinated by a third party, one could have inspired the other, or both might have done it on their own initiative. We just don't know at the moment, and if they didn't leave any manifestos or other clues we might never know exactly why they did it.
posted by Kevin Street at 2:35 PM on October 22, 2014


It's not at all clear whether an attack on an allegedly unarmed honor guard by non-uniformed actors of an entity that is a non-signatory to the Geneva Conventions can be legitimate at all... Again, what Greenwald is getting at represents a view that is outside the mainstream or what might be tenuously called settled international law.

Greenwald was not referring to today's events; his piece was published yesterday. He repeatedly makes clear in the article that he is not addressing whether the event he was referring to (Monday's assault in Quebec on members of the CF) was justified but what the cause might have been. The weird insistence (here and elsewhere) that he was somehow seeking to justify it is really troubling.
posted by junco at 2:35 PM on October 22, 2014 [6 favorites]


Again, what Greenwald is getting at represents a view that is outside the mainstream or what might be tenuously called settled international law.

Greenwald is not making any claims about international law, nor is he claiming that the attack in Montreal (which is what he's talking about) ought to be construed as legitimate under such laws. He's suggesting that calling it "terrorism" is wrongheaded because we use that term to refer to attacks targeting civilians:
But to the extent the term ['terrorism'] has any common understanding, it includes the deliberate (or wholly reckless) targeting of civilians with violence for political ends. But in this case in Canada, it wasn’t civilians who were targeted. If one believes the government’s accounts of the incident, the driver waited two hours until he saw a soldier in uniform. In other words, he seems to have deliberately avoided attacking civilians, and targeted a soldier instead – a member of a military that is currently fighting a war.

Again, the point isn’t justifiability. There is a compelling argument to make that undeployed soldiers engaged in normal civilian activities at home are not valid targets under the laws of war (although the U.S. and its closest allies use extremely broad and permissive standards for what constitutes legitimate military targets when it comes to their own violence). The point is that targeting soldiers who are part of a military fighting an active war is completely inconsistent with the common usage of the word “terrorism,” and yet it is reflexively applied by government officials and media outlets to this incident in Canada (and others like it in the UK and the US).
As for the events in Ottawa, we don't know yet what the motivations and goals were.
posted by twirlip at 2:36 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]




Federal government lockdown is being/has been lifted now.
posted by bonehead at 2:39 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


This is really outside of the scope of this thread, so it'll be my last response on this issue - but the Hague tribunals dealing with Yugoslavia, all dealt with state actors - soldiers and police and state representatives (see the list of individuals involved). It is clear that the GC binds them, because Yugoslavia was a signatory to the GC (1949). ISIS is not comparable to Yugoslavia or any state, or governing entity of any state. They might be pursued on other legal grounds through universal jurisdiction, but not the GC specifically.
posted by VikingSword at 2:45 PM on October 22, 2014


I was walking to work ~ 500m away from this when all hell broke loose - well over a dozen police cars in the span of a couple of minutes, ambulances, etc. driving towards Parliament Hill. Spent most of the day in our office locked down, before we were evacuated in the middle of the afternoon. Most civil servants I know are now home after the lockdown was lifted, but the downtown (and Centretown just adjacent) is eerily, early-Sunday morning quiet.

Typically, in the summer on a Wednesday on Parliament Hill, hundreds of people do yoga at lunchtime together. And you know what? Glenn Greenwald might think we're angry, and looking for vengeance, but 99% of the people I've chatted with today were already talking about the first moment we're allowed back near the Hill/Memorial and the hand-holding, candlelight vigil we'll all be at to remember Nathan Cirillo.

Love is better than anger, hope is better than fear, optimism is better than despair. This city will remember, but we'll never let fear guide us - not tomorrow, and not any day in the future.
posted by buoys in the hood at 3:20 PM on October 22, 2014 [27 favorites]


Greenwald was not referring to today's events; his piece was published yesterday. He repeatedly makes clear in the article that he is not addressing whether the event he was referring to (Monday's assault in Quebec on members of the CF) was justified but what the cause might have been. The weird insistence (here and elsewhere) that he was somehow seeking to justify it is really troubling.

What Greenwald is getting at is that the use of the word "terrorism" needs to be justified, intellectually, by those who say it (e.g., the media). He is advocating deeper understanding of what's going on, rather than letting our biases, emotions, and value judgments color our thoughts or load our speech. I think it's a perfectly sensible concept, even if people didn't like or appreciate his article.
posted by polymodus at 3:31 PM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


I sometimes turn to a good book when incidents like this happen. I'm just putting this out there for anyone who might be interested. Sometimes it's easier to process these things through the lens of fiction. It lets us think through them in a different way.
From Wiki:

The Secret Agent: A Simple Tale is a novel by Joseph Conrad published in 1907. The story is set in London in 1886 and deals largely with the life of Mr. Verloc and his job as a spy.[1] The Secret Agent is also notable as it is one of Conrad's later political novels, which move away from his typical tales of seafaring. The novel deals broadly with the notions of anarchism, espionage, and terrorism.[2] It portrays anarchist or revolutionary groups before many of the social uprisings of the twentieth century. However, it also deals with exploitation, particularly with regard to Verloc's relationship with his brother-in-law Stevie.

Because of its terrorist theme, The Secret Agent was noted as "one of the three works of literature most cited in the American media" around two weeks after September 11, 2001.[3] The Secret Agent was ranked the 46th best novel of the 20th century by Modern Library.[4]
posted by Fizz at 3:35 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


What Greenwald is getting at is that the use of the word "terrorism" needs to be justified...

But there wasn't a rising chorus of media yelling "TERRORISM"! It's like he just wanted to write an article on this topic, and the Canadian event gave him the excuse he needed. It attributes to us feelings and motives that aren't there. It's not just ignorant - it feels dangerous to try to spark a discourse around a problem that doesn't exist [yet]. Lest that prompt it into existence.
posted by kitcat at 3:48 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Basically my reaction to my fellow Americans on Twitter and elsewhere saying some really weird-ass stuff about this is "Guess what today is? Not About You Day!"

(Weird ass stuff being the gun laws we have here, the "if only someone good had had a gun" canard, as well as assuming that this happened because America is our neighbour, etc.)
posted by Kitteh at 4:12 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Downtown Ottawa right now, at the edge of the perimeter around the Memorial . (It's darker here -- overexposed a blurry cell snap). Perimeter map
posted by kmennie at 4:13 PM on October 22, 2014


Basically my reaction to my fellow Americans on Twitter and elsewhere saying some really weird-ass stuff about this is "Guess what today is? Not About You Day!"

If it makes you feel any better, I am doing the same with my fellow Canadians.

I fully support the long gun registry. Would it have stopped this? I don't know. Neither do you, so sit down and shut up.
posted by Lemurrhea at 4:26 PM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


[urbanwhaleshark, I know tempers are high on this news, but please dial it back a bit and try not to attack other commenters]
posted by mathowie at 4:31 PM on October 22, 2014




Today was so sad. Makes me think about how small Canada seems. I haven't lived in Canada for years but I still have two family members who were in lockdown today, one in Ottawa and one on a military base. My heart goes out to Nathan Cirillo's family and friends, especially cause my brother is a reservist his age and I can't even bear to think about what they must be going through.
posted by carolr at 4:42 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Really weird (French-language) Tweet linking the alleged shooter to an IRBC manager.
posted by Nevin at 4:55 PM on October 22, 2014


Prime Minister is speaking live here.
posted by chapps at 5:09 PM on October 22, 2014


And now Mulcair (opposition) here
posted by chapps at 5:18 PM on October 22, 2014


"May god bless you." Fuck me.
posted by kitcat at 5:23 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Harper's statement:

"My fellow Canadians: for the second time this week, there has been a brutal and violent attack on our soil. Today our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Cpl. Cirillo was killed today -- murdered in cold blood -- as he provided a ceremonial honour guard at Canada's National War Memorial, that sacred place that pays tribute to those who gave their lives so that we can live in a free, democratic and safe society.


Likewise, our thoughts and prayers remain also with the family and friends of Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, who was killed earlier this week by an ISIL-inspired terrorist.


Tonight we also pray for the speedy recovery of the others injured in these despicable attacks.


Fellow Canadians, we've also been reminded today of the compassionate and courageous nature of so many Canadians -- like those private citizens and first responders who came to provide aid to Cpl. Cirillo as he fought for his life. And of course the members of our security forces, in the RCMP, the City of Ottawa police, and in Parliament, who came quickly and at great risk to themselves to assist those of us who were close to the attack.


Fellow Canadians, in the days to come, we will learn more about the terrorist and any accomplices he may have had. But this week's events are a grim reminder that Canada is not immune to the types of terrorist attacks we have seen elsewhere around the world. We are also reminded that attacks on our security personnel and on our institutions of governance are by their very nature, attacks on our country, on our values. on our society, on us Canadians as a free and democratic people who embrace human dignity for all.


But let there be no misunderstanding. We will not be intimidated. Canada will never be intimidated. In fact, this will lead us to strengthen our resolve and redouble our efforts and those of our national security agencies to take all necessary steps to identify and counter threats and keep Canada safe here at home, just as it will lead us to strengthen our resolve and redouble our efforts to work with our allies around the world and fight against the terrorist organizations who brutalize those in other countries with the hope of bringing their savagery to our shores. They will have no safe haven.


While today has been without question a difficult day, I have no doubt Canadians will pull together with the kind of firm solidarity that has seen our country through many challenges. Together we will remain vigilant against those at home or abroad who wish to harm us. For now, Laureen and I and Ben and Rachel join all Canadians in praying for those touched by today's attack. May God bless them and keep our land glorious and free."

(emphasis my own)
posted by kitcat at 6:20 PM on October 22, 2014


Harper's statement: ...

Always Be Closing
posted by klanawa at 6:33 PM on October 22, 2014 [5 favorites]


Harper: ...Redouble our efforts and those of our national security agencies to take all necessary steps to identify and counter threats and keep Canada safe here at home

How about this: We celebrate the live and service of Cpl Nathan Cirillo and Kevin Vickers (a man so tough they names a machine gun after him) and forget the name of the actual gunmen. Never written, never printed, forever anonymous.
posted by flyingfox at 6:43 PM on October 22, 2014 [4 favorites]


Acts of violence are never appropriate, especially at memorial sites commemorating those killed by acts of violence.
posted by Renoroc at 7:14 PM on October 22, 2014


But there wasn't a rising chorus of media yelling "TERRORISM"!

Greenwald was pretty clear what he meant by his criticisms of the word usage, if one actually reads the article. If one follows his line of reasoning it should reveal that a rising chorus (so to speak) is neither necessary nor sufficient, etc.
posted by polymodus at 7:20 PM on October 22, 2014


This is Harper's opinion strategy and he is entitled to have it. (redacted comment - sorry)

One thing about Harper and his PMO is that they never miss an opportunity to promote their values.
posted by sneebler at 7:35 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


There might not have been a media chorus, but a member of the Canadian government stood in the House and called it terrorism.

I agree that it's the wrong word. I spent the day huddled in my boss's office, we have spouses, friends and former colleagues who were locked in the caucus rooms right where the gunman was killed. We were scared and sad.

But when the first (false, as it turns out) reports came out that there had been a shooting at THE MALL a block away, the feeling in the room changed dramatically. My daughter's school is about a km away and they were in lockdown, but I wasn't overly concerned about her safety until it seemed like the Rideau Centre was also under attack.

It's not about whether either if these incidents is justifiable--clearly they are not--but attacks on military and government targets are really different than deliberate attacks on civilians. The former is about making a political point. The latter really is about terrorising a populace and sowing chaos.
posted by looli at 7:45 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


Just watch me.
posted by Yowser at 7:50 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


I was reading a piece about the October crisis (44th anniversary in the past couple weeks) literally minutes before the shooting hit the news. It was eery.
posted by looli at 7:57 PM on October 22, 2014


I live a few blocks away from where this happened and it just pisses me off.
This isn't terrorism, it's loser-ism. The more we are scared of this type of incident, the more draconian the curbs on civil liberties. And there'll be more copycat incidents too because losers validate themselves through the fear they generate.
posted by storybored at 8:18 PM on October 22, 2014 [10 favorites]




Well, Sidney Crosby is Canadian, so they may feel something of a connection beyond hockey=Canada. (Not criticizing them at all! That's lovely!)

Ottawa Police just sent an email to muslim community leaders to call them if they feel unsafe or they're at risk.

I want to stand and applaud.


"We stand on guard for thee" aren't just empty words to them. Well done, Ottawa police.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:31 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


Kitkat and Klanawa,

I see no evidence of Harper politicizing this. Maybe you could do the same, at least for today.

What happened today was at least an intended killing spree. And a young man, a husband and father, lost his life in (volunteer) service to his country, in service to a national monument.

How that could stir anyone to partisan opinionating is beyond me.
posted by raider at 8:53 PM on October 22, 2014 [2 favorites]


dirigibleman: Pittsburgh Penguins fans joined in rendition of "O Canada" before tonight's Penguins / Flyers hockey game.

I was there tonight -- really classy move by the Penguins organization to do that. (My fellow Flyers fans and I were also singing, FWIW.)
posted by tonycpsu at 8:58 PM on October 22, 2014


Adventures on Facebook!:

A friend from law school made a post about the gun laws in relation to this. I responded with a pretty basic "was the gun one that needed to be registered? Would having to register the gun change anything?" And then some other friend of hers spews this out.
Yeah [Lemurhea] there is absolutely no connection between gun laws and this act of cowardice. Relaxed gun laws or strict gun laws, the reality is if you want to get a gun and use it to kill you can do it whether registered or not. This bitch knew he wouldn't get away with it. Now he's dead like a motherfucker and there is no law capable of preventing psychopaths from being psychopaths. Harper is not to blame here (as hard as that is for me to admit). The only thing to blame here is the fundamentalist ideas this asshole had. If he gets buried I will for sure desecrate his grave by taking a big shit in it. I hate this religiously motivated killing. When will the people of this country realize that religion ia at the root of this. Islam or any other religion is just as guilty. At the same time how can anyone believe in fairy tales like religion. No facts, no corroboration, no authentication. Just stupidity. Find salvation in yourself. Everything else is just fucking retarded. This "terrorist" got exactly what he had coming to him. Alas, now wr have dead soldiers and a stupid population who thinks military spending should be curtailed. Shame on you Canadians. When you want to be defended you expect a full blown army. And now what...bitching about gun laws...really? As if that would have made a fucking difference. Smarten the fuck up.
Yikes. People get het up.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:07 PM on October 22, 2014


Oh God, Facebook. There has been a horrendous tide of anti-Islamic bullshit spewing from otherwise rational fellow Canadians, and it's just amping up and up.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:15 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


I understand President Obama has offered to allocate Secret Service to help in Ottawa in case of a follow-on attack, but for some reason Harper politely declined it.
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:17 PM on October 22, 2014


Oh God, Facebook. There has been a horrendous tide of anti-Islamic bullshit spewing from otherwise rational fellow Canadians, and it's just amping up and up.

Really? All quiet here in Victoria. Maybe because there is a relatively large Muslim community here?
posted by Nevin at 9:22 PM on October 22, 2014


There's not exactly a small Muslim community in Toronto. And it's really, really vile stuff.. 'these animals' would be tame. And there is no getting through to them; I posted an AskMe a while back about finding moderate Muslim voices to counterpoint the filth they're spewing and nothing, nothing gets through.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:26 PM on October 22, 2014


Thanks Kitkat, there's the terrorist label, call for militarism and justification of surveillance right on cue. Greenwald may not know (all of) the Canadian public but government is more predictable.
posted by anthill at 9:34 PM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]


I just got an email from Hedy Fry, my MP from Vancouver. This was the last paragraph, which I very much enjoyed:

We will not be intimidated. We will not be silenced. We will take our seats, undaunted, in the House of Commons tomorrow morning, proud of our democracy, proud of our diversity, and doing what we were elected to do: serving the best interests of Canadians.

posted by lenny70 at 10:50 PM on October 22, 2014 [3 favorites]


Kitkat and Klanawa,

I see no evidence of Harper politicizing this. Maybe you could do the same, at least for today.


If you're asking me to be willfully blind, no. We've been through this movie before with disastrous consequences. You go ahead and think about today. I'm thinking about tomorrow.
posted by klanawa at 1:05 AM on October 23, 2014 [6 favorites]


Fizz, there is good reason Conrads' work gained interest after 911. I have a paperback edition from 1946 for the "fighting forces of the allied nations" This book not to be resold written on the back oddly with a resale label at 1/6 net. Conrad also dedicated the work to H.G Wells.

This is terrible. But pockmarked walls do not define the body politic with-in.
posted by clavdivs at 3:14 AM on October 23, 2014


Oh God, Facebook. There has been a horrendous tide of anti-Islamic bullshit spewing from otherwise rational fellow Canadians, and it's just amping up and up.

I had to deal with the opposite. I'm no harper fan, but saying crap like "I am HAPPY he tried to kill these government a**holes" is pathetic and anger inducing. I can't say I responded politely.
posted by aclevername at 5:23 AM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Kevin Vickers: the most awesome hat in Canada. But what the hell is that thing he's carrying?
posted by newdaddy at 6:29 AM on October 23, 2014


It's the ceremonial mace. The sergeant-at-arms carries it into the chamber in front of the Speaker.
posted by Cyrie at 6:58 AM on October 23, 2014


Powerful editorial cartoon by Chronicle Herald's Bruce MacKinnon (@CH_Cartoon).
posted by Fizz at 7:00 AM on October 23, 2014 [14 favorites]


Oh God, Facebook. There has been a horrendous tide of anti-Islamic bullshit spewing from otherwise rational fellow Canadians, and it's just amping up and up.

I had to deal with the opposite. I'm no harper fan, but saying crap like "I am HAPPY he tried to kill these government a**holes" is pathetic and anger inducing.

I find these two stances to be of one and the same politic; often witnessed on the libertarian and tea party right.
posted by standardasparagus at 7:52 AM on October 23, 2014


Neither of which political labels are particularly applicable in Canada.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:56 AM on October 23, 2014 [5 favorites]


If you watch the parade (at this point it's the second video down on the left), it looks like Vickers is having a tough time emotionally. Can't imagine what's going through his head: being cheered for shooting somebody, perhaps second guessing about the state of the security measures around parliament, after-effects of the event itself. Who knows, but he certainly doesn't look happy.
posted by sardonyx at 9:59 AM on October 23, 2014


sardonyx,

For those wondering: Who is Kevin Vickers, the sergeant-at-arms who reportedly stopped the Ottawa shooting
"He is a hero, although, says his cousin, Keith, if you were to call him that he would shrug it off — and maybe even blush about it. He was a cop for almost 30 years and never shot anyone. He crisscrossed the country with the RCMP, from Calgary to Toronto, from Yellowknife to Burnt Church. He became the sergeant-at-arms eight years ago. On Wednesday, in a moment of crisis on Parliament Hill, he is credited with taking a life, to save who knows how many."
posted by Fizz at 10:22 AM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Powerful editorial cartoon by Chronicle Herald's Bruce MacKinnon (@CH_Cartoon).

Aw geez, I've been taking this all in, in stride, horrified, feeling it as quite surreal and very sad. This brought me to tears.

The reaction at work today when people have talked about it is subdued and I'm glad to report that absolutely everyone has made comments along the lines of "I can't believe a Canadian would do this. " The closest that the conversations have gotten to 'muslims, terrorists and ISIL' are along the lines of 'sucks if he was influenced by that sort of craziness and extremism happening over there...' People here aren't angry or freaking out at all, nor do they seem to be jumping to a blame the whole group opinionating. The fear that has been expressed is that they hope this won't lead other people to do harm to Muslims because that isn't right. This is small town Ontario with no Muslim community around so I'm glad this appears to be the sentiment expressed by people who have little or no contact with this community at all. I admit I have breathed a sigh of relief because I wasn't sure what I would have to deal with at work this morning.

I should have more faith and not be so cynical I think.
posted by Jalliah at 10:22 AM on October 23, 2014 [6 favorites]


Neither of which political labels are particularly applicable in Canada.

What absolute, uninformed rubbish. There's no anti-government sentiment in Canada that parallels the tea party? Right political discourse that is dominant in Alberta, Ezra Klein and associated Sun papers? These same ilk often hold "anti-Islamic" beliefs.
posted by standardasparagus at 11:17 AM on October 23, 2014


An interesting article on how Canadians balance the use of space on Parliament Hill.
posted by Lemurrhea at 11:23 AM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


What absolute, uninformed rubbish. There's no anti-government sentiment in Canada that parallels the tea party? Right political discourse that is dominant in Alberta, Ezra Klein and associated Sun papers? These same ilk often hold "anti-Islamic" beliefs.

yes you're right I obviously know nothing about the politics of my own country

I definitely don't know that Libertarian and Tea Party are labels which apply to people here in any kind of meaningful way. Thing is, you didn't say anything about parallels, you did what appeared to be the tiresomely American thing where something gets made All About The USA. Libertarians, as a breed, don't really exist here--our more anti-government types are pretty damn fringe, even where they have a foothold. There is no Canadian equivalent to the Tea Party. The closest would have been Reform. Wildrose, perhaps. As grotesque as the federal PC party is, it has served to curb some of the worst excesses of the Reform zombie.

Try being a little more Canadian, eh?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:33 AM on October 23, 2014 [9 favorites]


Right political discourse that is dominant in Alberta, Ezra Klein and associated Sun papers

I think you mean Ralph Klein. Who stopped being premier in 2006 and died last year. I think you're uninformed. At the very least, you're being a bit weird...
posted by kitcat at 11:37 AM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yes, obviously I know nothing either about my own country--Canada--you muppet. Ezra Levant is who I meant; I find the parallel to be clear and you to be a pedant.
posted by standardasparagus at 11:41 AM on October 23, 2014


Ezra Levant I'm sure, which is an honest mistake to make.
posted by Lemurrhea at 11:41 AM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


And Ezra Levant is sure something but lately I think he's just... reactionary. Whatever actual ideology he might hold is drowned out under his need to say something, all the time, about everything. His only ideology is self-promotion. (edit: wrong Ezra)
posted by GuyZero at 11:41 AM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


Point still stands; those on the right as mentioned often hold those views simultaneously, without contradiction.
posted by standardasparagus at 11:45 AM on October 23, 2014


standardasparagus, I am sorry for my response to your comment. I don't want this to be a fighty space.
posted by kitcat at 12:23 PM on October 23, 2014 [4 favorites]


In other, possibly unrelated news, I wonder if Canadian air strikes on "ISIS" targets will, like the Americans, be exempt from civilian casualty regulations?

The moral outrage about these two young men's murders is understandable. I just hope it goes somewhere humanistic and self-aware.
posted by anthill at 12:53 PM on October 23, 2014


I would be ...surprised to hear that Canadian air strikes were governed by US regulations. Exempt is not really the right word there.
posted by Lemurrhea at 12:56 PM on October 23, 2014


The AP issued a statement from the shooter's parents:

"Hi, I am writing this note on behalf of my husband and myself. No words can express the sadness we are feeling at this time. We are so sad that a man lost his life. He has lost everything and he leaves behind a family that must feel nothing but pain and sorrow. We send our deepest condolences to them although words seem pretty useless. We are both crying for them. We also wish to apologize for all the pain, fright and chaos he created. We have no explanation to offer. I am mad at our son, I don't understand and part of me wants to hate him at this time. You write that our son was vulnerable, we don't know, we [he] was lost and did not fit in. I his mother spoke with him last week over lunch, I had not seen him for over five years before that. So I have very little insight to offer. We don't wish to be part of any media circus, we don't think it will add anything to the conversation. Please respect our privacy although many may not feel we deserve any.… Once again we are so sorry.

— Susan Bibeau and Bulgasem Zehaf"

It's all starting to sound more and more sad rather than angry. Whatever Michael Zehaf-Bibeau's beliefs or inspirations were it sounds like he may not have been totally mentally well, specifically (from the article):

"Police sources say they have seized the belongings of Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the gunman who rampaged on Parliament Hill Wednesday, while residents of a downtown shelter that had welcomed him say he told them to pray because the "world is ending.""

People living in shelters while exhorting people to pray about the end of the world... well I guess I can't make a blanket statement, but the signs point to not being of sound mind.
posted by GuyZero at 1:40 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


If you're asking me to be willfully blind, no. We've been through this movie before with disastrous consequences. You go ahead and think about today. I'm thinking about tomorrow.

Actually I'm still thinking about yesterday. All I'm saying is maybe could let the blood of one of our own soldiers dry on our own war memorial before debating foreign and domestic policy and changing the channel to Evil Stephen Harper. There's plenty of time for that; can we at least hang on until Cpl. Nathan Cirillo takes his last trip down Hwy 401? (Just wait to see the pictures of the overpasses when that happens)

In the meantime, take a look at this and tell me it's not heartbreaking.
posted by raider at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Maybe we could think about yesterday and discuss policy.

It's all starting to sound more and more sad rather than angry

I think so too. It really was too soon yesterday to start drawing conclusions.
posted by kitcat at 3:04 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


I woke up this morning to hear someone on CBC radio talking about this recent practice of revoking the passports of people not accused of any crime, in order to prevent them travelling to the Middle East part of the world, on the suspicion that they might be on the way to do something illegal far outside any reasonable Canadian jurisdiction. And the words that came across the ether said something like "We can't arrest people for having radical thoughts, that's the source of our conundrum." Perhaps I haven't fully thought it through yet, but my first reaction is that maybe if people are crazy enough to want to go get themselves killed in Syria in a civil war that Canada really has no legitimate business picking sides in (Assad or ISIS? What possible good will it do to help either one?) unless perhaps the UN decides to authorize military action to defend the borders of Iraq or something, then maybe we should encourage them to go instead of using bureaucratic measures to attempt to deny their basic right to leave the country if they so choose.

Some interesting bits from the Irish Independent, as I search the news: Zehaf-Bibeau is privately educated and is a recent Islamic convert. His mother is Canada's immigration chief. ... Canadian federal government had deemed Zehaf-Bibeau a “high-risk traveller” ... He said the devil is after him ... insisted he was only going abroad with the intent of learning about Islam and to study Arabic.

And they quote Stephen Harper as saying "We will not be intimidated. Canada will never be intimidated." Yes, great, the nation of Canada, with its proud traditions and its tens of millions of citizens, will not be intimidated by a single murder by a deranged "petty criminal". His actions will merely "lead us to strengthen our resolve and redouble our efforts to work with our allies around the world and fight against terrorist organizations." So this lone gunman has only a relatively modest influence on Canadian foreign policy, I guess. Could be worse. But it is all quite horrific.
posted by sfenders at 3:40 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


I wonder if improved mental health services would have a greater security impact than watchtowers and metal detectors.
posted by humanfont at 3:45 PM on October 23, 2014 [5 favorites]


Some interesting bits from the Irish Independent, as I search the news: Zehaf-Bibeau is privately educated and is a recent Islamic convert. His mother is Canada's immigration chief. ... Canadian federal government had deemed Zehaf-Bibeau a “high-risk traveller” ... He said the devil is after him ... insisted he was only going abroad with the intent of learning about Islam and to study Arabic.

"Interesting" is one word. So far as I can tell, Susan Bibeau is the deputy chair of the immigration committee at the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, not "Canada's immigration chief." And the photo they present of "Head of RCMP Bob Paulson briefs Canadian prime Minister Stephen Harper on the shootings at Parliament Hill in Ottawa" was one shown on CBC yesterday, described then as being several days old -- I believe it was taken during the briefing on the vehicular attack on Monday.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:00 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


I wonder if improved mental health services would have a greater security impact than watchtowers and metal detectors.

There's no need to wonder. Prevention always makes more sense than cure.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:55 PM on October 23, 2014 [2 favorites]


Dark threats and the normalization of white terror - on how eyewitness accounts are influenced by the colonial mindset.
posted by Lemurrhea at 5:58 PM on October 23, 2014


CBC radio just had a phone interview with the woman who gave the soldier at the war memorial CPR until the paramedics arrived. Quiet powerful. I suspect it will be up on their site soon.
posted by figurant at 6:18 PM on October 23, 2014


Here we go. I had to take a minute to collect myself in the parking lot before I went in to get groceries after I listened to that.
posted by figurant at 6:53 PM on October 23, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oh, god, I only caught a bit near the end and I couldn't understand if it was his wife or what. It's shattering.


There was also a very good interview with Glenn Greenwald:
posted by kitcat at 6:56 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


Here's interview with the NDP MP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamoth ... a mom who had her 2 month old with her during the shooting --breastfeeding while in hiding-- and once you recover from imagining that horror, and being impressed by how calm and collected she is, you can enjoy this adorable photo[Twitter] of her husband and baby, along with colleagues and their children, back at Parliament today.
(The (very young) NDP caucus has 17 MPs with babies).
posted by chapps at 9:23 PM on October 23, 2014 [1 favorite]


After hearing gunfire outside their meeting room door Wednesday, Members of Parliament snapped close to 15 flagpoles to make sharp weapons

Stephen Harper spent about 15 minutes hidden in a Parliament Hill closet after a gunman stormed Centre Block where he and the rest of the Conservative caucus were guarded by MPs who’d fashioned sharp spears from flagpoles, sources say. [...] Some positioned themselves on risers that flanked doors, ready to attack an assailant.
posted by eagle-bear at 10:58 PM on October 23, 2014


First thought: That's a cute, but poorly fleshed-out, joke. Which fake news site is it from?
Second thought: The Globe and Mail? The real Globe and Mail? Yep, the real... Wait, maybe they have the domain 'globeandmail.com' and this is a cunning fake. Nope, that redirects here. The real Globe and Mail.
posted by frimble at 1:52 AM on October 24, 2014


I have a hard time judging MPs for wanting to do something, anything, to feel useful in a crisis. Y'know? They're barricaded in a room, all they know is that there are shooters. Of course they want to defend themselves.

...will that stop me from making jokes about Harper being in the closet? No.
posted by Lemurrhea at 5:15 AM on October 24, 2014



Canada considers 'preventative detention' in wake of Ottawa attack.
As predicted, Harper is cynically using this attack to further his agenda. If you are Canadian and you have not already done so, write or call your MP's immediately.
posted by Poldo at 5:37 AM on October 24, 2014 [3 favorites]


...will that stop me from making jokes about Harper being in the closet? No.

I would hide in a closet in this situation. So would almost everyone reading this. There are about eight hundred solid policy reasons I dislike the PM. Taking heed of what his security detail tells him to do when there is a gunman a few steps away is not among them.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:09 AM on October 24, 2014 [8 favorites]


Canada considers 'preventative detention' in wake of Ottawa attack.

Harper really likes getting his ass handed to him by the Supreme Court, doesn't he?
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 6:31 AM on October 24, 2014


Ottawa shooter attempted to rob Vancouver McDonalds with pointed stick so the police would jail him away from his crack addiction.

Sounds like mental health was the problem. Only solution is more surveillance, I guess!
posted by anthill at 6:46 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Sounds like mental health was the problem. Only solution is more surveillance, I guess!

How about better support groups/facilities, less stigma or shaming of people who need mental health help, and more awareness that it is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

But sure, more surveillance.....

*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 7:37 AM on October 24, 2014


Yeah well the government has already refused to entertain the idea that CAMH--one of the more respected mental health institutions in the world, one that focuses specifically on substance use issues--might be right about legalizing pot. Silly scientists with all their 'studies' and their 'evidence.' It's hardly surprising that the same government is going to bang the drums of war and surveillance rather than look at the mental health precursors that led to this tragic event.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:38 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


After hearing gunfire outside their meeting room door Wednesday, Members of Parliament snapped close to 15 flagpoles to make sharp weapons

If there's one thing I admire about our politicians, it's their willingness and ingenuity in defending themselves rather than relying on security. From Chretien's inuit sculpture and bare hands, to the flagpole spear ambush plan, they're not going down without a fight.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Conservatives mulling legislation making it illegal to condone terrorist acts online

"There is frustration in government, and among law enforcement agencies, that the authorities can’t detain or arrest people who express sympathy for atrocities committed overseas and who may pose a threat to public safety, one Conservative MP said. “Do we need new offences? If so which?”"
posted by standardasparagus at 8:12 AM on October 24, 2014


Chretien had the, whatsit, Shawinigan Kiss? Or was it handshake?

These ones get... the Rideau Rapier? Spear of the House?

/gallows
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:13 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


Conservatives mulling legislation making it illegal to condone terrorist acts online

This has to be the worst idea ever.
posted by GuyZero at 9:20 AM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


The Shawinigan Handshake!

Shepherd was saying this morning--in reference to Harper's now constant security detail--that this current PM doesn't have the asskickery of Chretien (of course, this does not excuse the handshake).
posted by Kitteh at 9:20 AM on October 24, 2014


CBC radio just had a phone interview with the woman who gave the soldier at the war memorial CPR until the paramedics arrived.

Here's another article describing the actions of that woman - Barbara Winters, a lawyer and former medic in the Navy. I didn't realize before now that she was actually walking away as the shots were fired, and she turned around and ran towards the gunfire to help the wounded soldier, with an active shooter wandering around the area. Amazing.
posted by randomnity at 11:33 AM on October 24, 2014




“We have to find out what’s happening on the ground in these Muslim communities — what the NYPD used to do, but those morons at the New York Times Editorial Board and the American Civil Liberties Union went after them,” King said in an interview with NewsMaxTV’s America’s Forum.

Charming.

This reminds me that I was hoping to hear someone's opinion on what he meant when Obama said in his statement on Wednesday:

“It’s very important for us to recognise that, when it comes to dealing with terrorist activity, Canada and the US have to be entirely in sync. We have in the past and I’m confident we will continue to be in the future.”

It made me a little uncomfortable. What is meant by 'entirely in sync'? And why is it necessary?
posted by kitcat at 2:42 PM on October 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


“The fact is,” King continued, “We have to find out what people are thinking, we have to find out who the radicals are; we have to find out what’s going on in the mosques which often are incubators for this time of terrorism.”

Perhaps we could create a police force to track people's thoughts. Anyone got any ideas as to what we should call it?
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 3:00 PM on October 24, 2014 [1 favorite]


What is meant by 'entirely in sync'?

As usual, this means "Canada does everything the U.S. asks, and in return, they get the satisfaction of having done everything the U.S. asks."
posted by one more dead town's last parade at 3:02 PM on October 24, 2014 [2 favorites]


#highwayforheroes is trending now on Twitter as Cpl. Cirillo's procession makes its way home to Hamilton. The pictures of everyone gathering on the overpasses are incredible.
posted by emeiji at 4:14 PM on October 24, 2014


Oops, make that #highwayofheroes
posted by emeiji at 4:17 PM on October 24, 2014


I saw the motorcade with Cpl. Cirillo's hearse pass by on the 401. There were hundreds of people on overpasses and parked anywhere to stand and witness and pay their respects.

It was touching but my heart also aches in a way that it does every year before Remembrance day. I am not a pacifist not anti-military. I support the troops, but I can't support Parliament and the wars in which its been sending our people to kill and die. In some way that I can't quite explain well, I feel like the sentiment that makes me want to wear a poppy is the exact thing that the government exploits in order to get away with using our military for cynical reasons. I haven't worn one in years, even though I want to.
posted by beau jackson at 6:02 PM on October 24, 2014 [6 favorites]


The CBC has just broadcast a report describing, in great detail, how Vickers shot and killed the gunman. (Yes, the official video title is "How Kevin Vickers managed to subdue Ottawa gunman".) It's rather amazing and totally horrifying all at once.

The play by play of the actual shooting starts at 1:38. A 58 year old man with a revolver killed a much younger man with a Winchester by diving around a column, spinning and landing on his back, and shooting upwards. Yes, he's a highly skilled marksman, but the speed and precision of his actions, and the sheer physical effort required, really does seem more appropriate for the movie of the week mentioned upthread.
posted by maudlin at 8:21 PM on October 24, 2014 [3 favorites]


In the meantime, take a look at this and tell me it's not heartbreaking.

What that is is a dog.

I may have unpopular opinions about these things: What happened was shocking. Two people died. Many other people thought quickly and did their best under terrible circumstances. But there are no such things as heroes. Shooting someone doesn't make one a hero. Getting shot doesn't one a hero. Having a dog doesn't make one a hero.

Canada has not lost its innocence. Canada was never innocent in the first place. At times like this we can simultaneously mourn the dead and and turn our attention to ensuring that the political opportunists don't exploit the opportunity they've been given. Plenty of people got shat on for saying the same thing after 9/11, and what happened? Political opportunists started two wars while everyone was busy saluting.

At any other time, pretty much any Canadian on MetaFilter will admit that Harper is the worst kind of opportunist, and now that his opportunity has been handed to him, we're blubbering about sad dogs? If ever there was a time to think clearly and pay attention, it's now.

As an aside, I'm looking forward to the day when people line the highways in commemoration of the thousands of indigenous women who've been killed. I'll be waiting a long time. There's just no sense of proportion in any of this.
posted by klanawa at 12:52 AM on October 25, 2014 [8 favorites]


As an aside, I'm looking forward to the day when people line the highways in commemoration of the thousands of indigenous women who've been killed.

My MA thesis was on exactly this: looking at the Highway of Heroes and the Highway of Tears within a hierarchy of "grievable subjects" of national violence, with dead Canadian soldiers at the top and missing and murdered Indigenous women much further down. Strangely enough, it was fully approved and sent for publication yesterday morning – I got the email minutes after they announced the motorcade route down the 401...
posted by avocet at 5:07 AM on October 25, 2014 [13 favorites]


I'd like to read that.
posted by klanawa at 8:26 AM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]




I would also like to read that thesis. What a phenomenal subject.
posted by looli at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2014 [2 favorites]


If you don't mind, I too am interested in the thesis.
posted by jeather at 12:28 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


This will be my final comment on the subject.

To invert a phrase I'd suggest that maybe you can't see the trees for the forest. Yes I am aware that tragedies and injustices happen for many reasons and on grander scales. But the symbolism of this act strikes a nerve and clearly I am not alone. Does your heart not bleed a little at every flag you've seen at half mast the past few days?

I confess to being a small-c conservative. I also subscribe to my own brand of utilitarianism which is based on the belief that people tend to be good and charitable. We want the same things, we just see things from different angles which of course is ok.

My only beef is/was it seems to me this thread was started to discuss events in real time and given how they turned out, it seems to me the appropriate mood would be solemn.

I just think it's an inappropriate time and thread beat immediately start beating political drums. And it seems to me you have been every bit as opportunistic as those you accuse.
posted by raider at 1:28 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]


Me too re reading the thesis. Can it be posted to projects??? :)
posted by chapps at 9:47 PM on October 25, 2014 [3 favorites]


Does your heart not bleed a little at every flag you've seen at half mast the past few days?

No. (Bleeding hearts are apparently a conservative thing.) Flags at half mast remind me of how arbitrary we are, as a society, in bestowing honour.

As for the beating of drums, they never stop. Some people just tune them out.
posted by klanawa at 11:36 PM on October 25, 2014 [1 favorite]




Hey, if you want to MeMail me your email addresses, I'll send you a link when it has been released. The time I spent writing it was pretty devastating, so I am thankful it is behind me now.
posted by avocet at 7:39 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Goddamn it, Beaverton, stop making me cry.

This is also good.
posted by Lemurrhea at 8:34 AM on October 27, 2014 [4 favorites]


When facing terror, there are limits to what the law can achieve. Craig Forcese and Kent Roach (two of the biggest names in criminal/national security law) writing in the G&M. The linked Q&A on terrorism law is a bit technical but very much worth reading.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:54 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]




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