Tim Cook - I'm Proud to be Gay
October 30, 2014 8:00 AM Subscribe

Throughout my professional life, I’ve tried to maintain a basic level of privacy. I come from humble roots, and I don’t seek to draw attention to myself. . . . At the same time, I believe deeply in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, who said: “Life’s most persistent and urgent question is, ‘What are you doing for others?’ ” . . . While I have never denied my sexuality, I haven’t publicly acknowledged it either, until now. So let me be clear: I’m proud to be gay, and I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me.
posted by kethonna (125 comments total) 23 users marked this as a favorite

Good on him.
posted by Optamystic at 8:01 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Good, fine. I am proud to be queer. It is one of the best parts of mine life, too. I'm glad that he came out, but, duh.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:04 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Go Tim!
posted by bouvin at 8:05 AM on October 30, 2014

Good, fine. I am proud to be queer. It is one of the best parts of mine life, too. I'm glad that he came out, but, duh.

Maybe this seems obvious to you, but to many Americans, and even many LGBT folks (especially youth), I feel like this needs to be said.

Being gay is nothing to be ashamed of.
posted by rocketman at 8:07 AM on October 30, 2014 [18 favorites]

At the same time, I believe deeply in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, who said: “Life’s most persistent and urgent question is, ‘What are you doing for others?’ ”

Yeah, Tim, the factory workers in China are wondering that, too.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:09 AM on October 30, 2014 [30 favorites]

Being gay is nothing to be ashamed of.

I don't think so either, and I didn't think so when I came out in 1995. I am honestly very glad for him. I was just pointing out that Tim Cook's sexuality was not a secret.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:10 AM on October 30, 2014

"Not a secret" and "known by the general public" are not the same thing.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:14 AM on October 30, 2014 [12 favorites]

::raises hand:: I didn't know Tim Cook's sexuality. But then I don't think it's particularly relevant.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he came out for the benefit this might give others who feel they must hide their sexuality.
posted by MrBobaFett at 8:14 AM on October 30, 2014 [11 favorites]

This is a yawn, but that very fact is a good thing - that it's just not a big deal that a prominent person is gay.

Now he should work on making his company an ethical business, because it's an awful long way from being that right now...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:14 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

He's proud to be gay, probably also proud to sign insanely one-sided supplier contracts.

But seriously, good on him for coming put publicly.
posted by GuyZero at 8:15 AM on October 30, 2014

More publicly LGBT people with high profiles can only be a good thing. The fact that we are at the point where we can question whether this is or not newsworthy is also fantastic. Bears, wood. Pope, catholic. People, gay.
posted by Thing at 8:16 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

I think this is kind of interesting, because there's an aspect of privilege where certain people, mainly wealthy people, get to have their personal life be off limits as a topic of media discusion, or have to "transgress" social mores in a more extreme fashion to have it come out. And so emerging from the protection of that has a certain significance. Basically saying, "my personal life does not need the protection of my privilege". I'll leave it to those more directly affected to say how meaningful it is for them.
posted by selfnoise at 8:18 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

We don't have to turn every single Apple thread into a discussion about its overseas business practices, and Tim Cook's being gay doesn't have anything to do with that so how about let's not.
posted by rorgy at 8:25 AM on October 30, 2014 [77 favorites]

...I realize how much I’ve benefited from the sacrifice of others.

It'd be nice to hear this from more people.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:26 AM on October 30, 2014 [15 favorites]

rorgy: In his speech, Cook is quoted as saying: " I believe deeply in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, who said: “Life’s most persistent and urgent question is, ‘What are you doing for others?’ ”"

Considering that he in fact a leads a rapacious and unethical company that seems to be doing the reverse of this, it's really hard not ask, "If he knows what the right thing is, why not do it?"
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:28 AM on October 30, 2014 [13 favorites]

Some would argue that Apple is one of the better companies in the world when it comes to ethics.

Others would argue that all this is a distraction from the fact that I am not seeing an Apple Watch when I look at my WRIST RIGHT NOW!
posted by blue_beetle at 8:31 AM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

"It was Adam and Eve who took a bite out of the apple, not Adam and Steve!"

"It was Rob and Steve, actually."

And if this means a return to the Rainbow Apple, I'm all for it.

(more seriously: ain't it great that this doesn't matter nearly as much as it would have, not so very long ago?)
posted by Devonian at 8:33 AM on October 30, 2014 [8 favorites]

Is it weird that I look forward to a day when no one is proud to be gay any more than I am proud to be straight?

Like, right now I get that it's important for gay people everywhere for when someone famous and successful comes out publicly as gay but I don't think it should be a detail that is any more important than what his favorite food is or what color hair he has.
posted by VTX at 8:36 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

First, I know no one this will shock (or surprise).

Second, of all the Fortune 500 companies Apple is now the only one run by an openly gay individual. That just shows you how far there is to go. Not that there needs to be more gay CEOs or even that the CEOs that are gay need to come out, but that this is a first is amazing to me.

Wake me up when we have an black lesbian muslim (or atheist) president.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:42 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

America is moving toward marriage equality, and the public figures who have bravely come out have helped change perceptions and made our culture more tolerant. Still, there are laws on the books in a majority of states that allow employers to fire people based solely on their sexual orientation. There are many places where landlords can evict tenants for being gay, or where we can be barred from visiting sick partners and sharing in their legacies.

Yep. Including Cook's own home state, Alabama, and the state where I live, Tennessee.

Marriage equality is great, and I'm all for it, but until these other barriers are down, it's still a huge problem being openly gay in many parts of the US. You can get denied the ability to see your partner or spouse in the hospital when she's sick because you're not "family" (even if there are federal laws now that prohibit this practice in hospitals that receive Medicare and Medicaid funding, it's still not easy to force the issue, especially in a situation where you're already overwrought because your loved one is hospitalized). You can be discriminated against by landlords if you're looking for a place to live, or kicked out, if they find out you're gay. You can be fired from your job for being gay.

Those are real things. Seeing tons of happy gay people getting married on TV doesn't change any of that, even though it's a huge step in the right direction. ENDA (just one example) hasn't come even close to passing in Congress.

Whether or not Apple is evil, it is good (IMO) that Tim Cook is publicly making these points.
posted by blucevalo at 8:43 AM on October 30, 2014 [8 favorites]

I was surprised! But I'm kind of an Apple hater. In any case, what Tim Cook did here is inspiring.
posted by The Minotaur at 8:47 AM on October 30, 2014

Considering that he in fact a leads a rapacious and unethical company that seems to be doing the reverse of this, it's really hard not ask, "If he knows what the right thing is, why not do it?"

As long as, you know, every thread tangentially related to a multinational corporation also points out how rapacious and unethical they behave.

Like over in the Amy Poehler thread, talking about how NBC's parent company Comcast fucks over consumers every day.

Or the Star Wars thread, talking about Disney factory workers making a tidal wave of merchandise under horrible conditions.

This is the fucked-up, corporation-run world we live in. We know this. But it has shit-all to do with whether Tim Cook chooses to announce he's gay.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:49 AM on October 30, 2014 [37 favorites]

I think Morgan Freeman said once that he was looking forward to the day when this type of thing wouldn't be necessary at all, in reference to his own heritage. He just wanted to be recognized as a good actor, not a good African American actor. Hopefully we can see the day when Tim Cook is a maker of good products (if you feel they're good) and not a maker of good products who's gay. Unfortunately, we're not at this stage yet - but like I say - hopefully we will be one day.
posted by McMillan's Other Wife at 8:51 AM on October 30, 2014

Is it weird that I look forward to a day when no one is proud to be gay any more than I am proud to be straight?

Yeah, it's weird to be proud of something that is an accident of biology. It's akin to saying "I'm proud to have brown eyes," to which the proper response is "Why are you proud of it? It just's something that happened and you could hardly change it if you weren't proud."

Straight pride and white pride are exceedingly ugly, destructive concepts beyond their promotion of an un-oppressed majority-- they're exclusionary. There's a contextual difference between "proud" and "not ashamed." Pride outside of actual accomplishments just creates divisions.

I wish he had said "Yeah, I'm gay. It's pretty fucked up if that changes your opinion of me, whether positive or negative. Next topic."
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:51 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

yeah well my android phone has been openly gay for years.
posted by mullacc at 8:52 AM on October 30, 2014 [34 favorites]

Yeah, it's weird to be proud of something that is an accident of biology. It's akin to saying "I'm proud to have brown eyes," to which the proper response is "Why are you proud of it? It just's something that happened and you could hardly change it if you weren't proud."

Straight pride and white pride are exceedingly ugly, destructive concepts beyond their promotion of an un-oppressed majority-- they're exclusionary. There's a contextual difference between "proud" and "not ashamed." Pride outside of actual accomplishments just creates divisions.

The difference between taking pride in a trait which SOCIETY LITERALLY TELLS YOU THAT YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF and taking pride in a trait which places you squarely in the assumed-to-be-the-norm majority is so obvious that I doubt this discussion, after the literal dozens of MetaFilter discussions in which people have brought up this asinine line of thinking, is going to be the one that finally changes your mind.

Pride movements exist for a reason, and this criticism of them is absurdly tone-deaf.
posted by rorgy at 8:55 AM on October 30, 2014 [69 favorites]

VTX - I'm with you on this. Not even remotely homophobic, but I don't understand why people think heralding gays is more progressive than heralding straights.

If it really doesn't matter to people and it's all the same....then it's all the same. Don't want to praise anybody for being gay any more than I need praise for being straight.

Pretty sure this is an unpopular opinion, but - if the idea is equal rights and treatment for any sexual preference, IMHO this is heading backwards.
posted by GreyboxHero at 8:56 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Well well well. This explains it. Because, teh gays clearly and historically have overlooked the possibility of 21" retina display iMacs.
posted by jimmythefish at 8:57 AM on October 30, 2014

Well well well. This explains it. Because, teh gays clearly and historically have overlooked the possibility of 21" retina display iMacs.

Pffft. Like a straight person cares about how something looks except for women. If the retina saga proves anything it proves that once again we wait for the gays to make something fashionable and the straights come in and steal it for themselves.
posted by Talez at 9:01 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

VTX - I'm with you on this. Not even remotely homophobic, but I don't understand why people think heralding gays is more progressive than heralding straights.

It feels weird to even have to respond to this. It's about promoting tolerance. Because, in case you haven't noticed, straight people haven't exactly been crucified over the years. Straight people don't need a booster club. Straightness has been a universal 'default' in the eyes of almost all cultures, which needs no defending.
posted by jimmythefish at 9:02 AM on October 30, 2014 [23 favorites]

Yeah, it's weird to be proud of something that is an accident of biology.

It's weird to try to make somebody feel ashamed of something like that too, but that's happening, and that's what begets the concept of being proud of it AFAIK.
posted by ftm at 9:05 AM on October 30, 2014 [19 favorites]

This a very demanding audience--MetaFilter "yes, but". Glad to see a CEO doing this.
posted by rmhsinc at 9:07 AM on October 30, 2014 [8 favorites]

For years, I’ve been open with many people about my sexual orientation. Plenty of colleagues at Apple know I’m gay, and it doesn’t seem to make a difference in the way they treat me. Of course, I’ve had the good fortune to work at a company that loves creativity and innovation and knows it can only flourish when you embrace people’s differences. Not everyone is so lucky.

In a business that historically has not been friendly to gays and other minorities, from Turing onwards, it's awesome that Tim Cook can come out and say something like this about Apple, the company he runs.

Awesome.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:12 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

\o/

Yay!
posted by Quiplash at 9:13 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

yeah well my android phone has been openly gay for years.

There's even a gay android tshirt.
posted by octothorpe at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2014

Straight pride is Valentine's Day, every hetero love story that permeates our culture, the rites every culture has to celebrate uniting men and women in marriage. Straight pride happens everyday, especially in June.

I, too, will be happy when the day comes when it won't be news for a CEO to come out as gay (or bi or trans*). One day, maybe we'll be like Bujold's Beta colony, where people just wear earrings indicating their preferences and/or romantic status to make meeting people easier, and it's no bigger a deal than whether you like red or blue.

But we're not there yet.
posted by jb at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

Yeah, double standards are essential to equality. I get that now.

In general I understand the good intentions of straight people who say "being gay shouldn't be a big deal" but the truth of the matter is that many gay people grew up thinking they were The Only One Like This and something was wrong with them and (clearly, with no openly gay F500 CEOs before this) there are still pressures to hide and social barriers in existence, so to continue to insist that pride is in this context anything more than an active rejection of imposed shame or that it's a double standard (?!) is rude and tone-deaf and unhelpful.
posted by psoas at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2014 [11 favorites]

If it matters, I prefer red.
posted by jb at 9:17 AM on October 30, 2014

yeah well my android phone has been openly gay for years.

My favorite comment about this on /r/apple went something like:

"Oh yeah? Well I'm gay too!" — Samsung's CEO, next week
posted by rorgy at 9:21 AM on October 30, 2014 [43 favorites]

We don't have to turn every single Apple thread into a discussion about its overseas business practices

How else can we assiduously avoid dealing with the topic at hand while simultaneously displaying our superior brand allegiances for all to see?

Sexuality is creepy, ugly, and needs to be hidden behind a nice tidy curtain. Not too much lace though. Preferably a curtain that looks like a brick wall or something, so that you don't even realize it's a curtain. In fact, don't even look at the curtain, just forget I mentioned it exists.
posted by aramaic at 9:28 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

"Oh yeah? Well I'm gay too!" — Samsung's CEO, next week

Cook will have patented by then.
posted by biffa at 9:29 AM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

Mayor Curley: “Straight pride and white pride are exceedingly ugly, destructive concepts beyond their promotion of an un-oppressed majority-- they're exclusionary. There's a contextual difference between ‘proud’ and ‘not ashamed.’ Pride outside of actual accomplishments just creates divisions.”

I don't think this exactly gets at the problem with "white pride" or "straight pride."

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with having pride in things you didn't accomplish, things you just happen to be a part of. The problem with "white pride" is specifically the lie that it's founded on: the lie that there is such a thing as race. But race was invented by racists, by people who wanted handy ways to categorize people no matter how devoid of any basis in fact those categories might be. There have been famous instances of racists redefining what "white" and "Aryan" (another nonsensical category) actually mean – for instance Karl Lueger's infamous "I decide who is a Jew!" which was echoed by Hermann Goering and all of the Nazi elite.

So when someone says they have "white pride," they're aligning themselves on the power side of the lie at the core of white supremacy. They're affiliating themselves with the history that props up that lie. Claiming "black pride" makes sense as a point of solidarity; those who have suffered at the hands of white supremacy can choose to find common cause and be proud of the suffering they've endured, turning it into a badge of honor. But claiming "white pride" is nothing more than affiliating oneself with a history of calumny.

And what is most ridiculous and inane about this is that the folks who claim "white pride" always immediately assert that they are no longer allowed to have pride in their heritage – that "white people" have been denied the right to be proud of who they are, a right that is granted freely to all "nonwhite" people. This is utter nonsense! I am Irish, Italian, and Scottish. All three of these heritages are heritages that I am proud of. I show an interest in my forbears and in their history. Nobody has ever called me a racist for this. I play jazz sometimes at the Edelweiss German-American Club here in Albuquerque. They are wonderful people, and many of them are deeply proud of their German heritage. Nobody has ever called them racist for being proud of being German.

It's just fine to be proud of who you are and where you came from. Nobody, not even "the most rabid SJW" or whatever boogaboo one chooses to imagine, objects to these things at all, because a culture and a heritage is not an inherently exclusionary thing. But if you try to claim pride in an inherently exclusionary category like "straightness" or "whiteness," you're gonna get pushback, because you're saying implicitly that you stand by the history of exclusion that cut out "nonwhite" and "nonstraight" people and prevented them from having an equal stake in our society.
posted by koeselitz at 9:30 AM on October 30, 2014 [15 favorites]

My cousin, last family get-together: Gay Pride Parade?! Where's my Straight Pride Parade?
Me: That was TODAY.

Visibility matters, representation matters, so good on 'im.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:34 AM on October 30, 2014

When someone says they're proud to be gay, they have a definite audience: others who are scared and/or oppressed, or the bullies/oppressors themselves. It is a message of difference, of tolerance.

When someone says they're proud to be white, I can't say the audience or message is anything but ignorance, fear or hate.
posted by jimmythefish at 9:38 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Jimmythefish - don't really get the negative sentiment there, but alright.

I didn't really have any opinions about it one way or the other until a friend of mine who is gay said that he thought, "if gays want to be not seen as different or special, they should stop asking to be treated special or differently."

Stuck with me I guess, agree to disagree.
posted by GreyboxHero at 9:46 AM on October 30, 2014

I don't see anywhere in Tim Cook's essay where he asks for special treatment, but then I RTFA so what do I know.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:48 AM on October 30, 2014 [13 favorites]

Tim Cook finally came out as a proud Southern American. I believe the words he used were "Son of the South." Something too many others will stereotype, belittle and shame about, so good for him

If the retina saga proves anything it proves that once again we wait for the gays to make something fashionable and the straights come in and steal it for themselves.

...cough...ahem...cough

I used to believe this until I saw enough terrifying examples of interior design and fashion in magazines to realise it would be a huge mistake to always assume gay aesthetics are superior

However, in real estate and neighbourhood redevelopment, I would put my money anywhere a gay person tells me to.
posted by C.A.S. at 9:50 AM on October 30, 2014

If you are a straight person and you've never attended a Pride event, I suggest you do so. You really can't understand the depth of joy for people to simply be able to walk down the street and be allowed to be comfortable in who they are.

Seriously, if you are not from a marginalized identity, don't get into the whole "I don't think anyone should be proud of [marginalized identity], when will the colorblind world arrive, I don't see sexuality, et patati et patata" business. Your experience of your sexuality is so different from non-straight/non-cis people's that you just....you're like a bird talking about how it imagines it would experience life as a fish. It sounds all right in theory - especially to the other birds - but there's about a million things about life under water that you are forgetting, misunderstanding or ignoring purely because you're used to the air.

~~~
Anecdote: I always thought I grew up basically without any shame over my sexual identity - I never felt consciously ashamed when I had a giant crush on a girl in high school, was completely unconflicted about pursuing the crush, do not now feel ashamed when called names on the street, am not afraid of weird looks when on a date, and am very visibly queer and gender non-conforming.

And yet! I had this moment at work, you see. I was reading a book - a gay novel from the fifties recently republished, and some people from my job asked me what I was reading and what it was about. And I didn't tell them that it was a novel about a gay guy, because even though I am visibly queer and gender non-conforming, I knew that one of them would think it was gross, and I knew that the others would view it as special pleading - it wouldn't be seen as an interesting novel in its own right, it would be some weird freaky-deaky novel about the gays, and what's more, no one but a gay person would bother reading something like that. It wouldn't be like "I'm reading this interesting 1950s historical novel about WWII veterans after Dunkirk", it would be "I'm reading some weird special-pleading novel that pretends that the lives of gay veterans after Dunkirk are interesting or important instead of marginal and strange". And what's more, I knew it would embarrass them, because it would be like I was saying "I am reading a novel about SEX!!!!!!" since teh gays are all about teh sex, etc.

So I said it was a historical novel about Dunkirk and hoped none of them would note it down, and then I felt bad. And I realized that I do a lot of that stuff, and when I don't do that stuff, then it has to be A Thing where Frowner is talking about homosexuality. And when I carry around my copy of Coming Out Under Fire to my accounting class to read at the breaks, it's a tiny, well-designed sign that says "one of these things is not like the others, look at the weirdo".

And while I like feeling like a special snowflake as much as the next person, it is a tremendous relief to be in social settings - such as Pride, depressing and commercial as it is - where no matter what else is going on, I know I don't have to apologize for or hide the books I read.
posted by Frowner at 9:50 AM on October 30, 2014 [49 favorites]

Jimmythefish - don't really get the negative sentiment there, but alright.

I didn't really have any opinions about it one way or the other until a friend of mine who is gay said that he thought, "if gays want to be not seen as different or special, they should stop asking to be treated special or differently."

Stuck with me I guess, agree to disagree.

Discrimination is actually special treatment. Mindblowing, I know!
posted by selfnoise at 9:50 AM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with having pride in things you didn't accomplish, things you just happen to be a part of. The problem with "white pride" is specifically the lie that it's founded on: the lie that there is such a thing as race.

By that reasoning, black pride must be unacceptable because Louis Farrakhan is nuts.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:53 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

And what I want to emphasize is that this business with the book pulled up a lot of other bad feelings of shame, weirdness and isolation, and it made me tired, and it was just one more little "I am under pressure to prevaricate in order to avoid reminding people of my We-Tolerate-You-Because-We-Are-Liberal-But-You-Are-Still-An-Outsider identity". I mean, it made me feel bad out of all proportion to what you would think if you just equate it to that time when you had to hide your copy of Vice from your boss or whatever.
posted by Frowner at 9:53 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

We're almost, almost, getting to the point in Western society where being LGBT is pretty normal and unremarkable, where Pride is no longer needed in the way it was. But consider this: there is not a single gay person anywhere in the world of marriageable age who was born with the right to marry according to their desire. The "born equal" generation of LGBT people has an average age measured in months rather than years.
posted by Thing at 9:56 AM on October 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

I grew up in Auburn, AL. Tim Cook is now among the most well-known Auburn University graduates, and AU has been playing that up more and more. The town is sort of an oasis in the rest of Alabama, but I wonder what the fallout from this will be there?
posted by supercres at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Equality does not mean everything gets to be the same for everybody when you have centuries or millennia of oppression looming over the conversation.

Let's check back in on the "colorblindness" and "gender/orientation neutrality" after a few hundred years without cruel injustice and suffering.

Hell, just one year would be nice.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:04 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

I mean, I understand why pride parades happen, I understand why it's a big deal that Tim Cook has announced this publicly. It's just that it doesn't change my opinion of him or anyone else I meet that tells me that they are gay/bi/trans. I don't think it's controversial around here to assert that this is why things ought to be. I'm not proud that I'm straight nor am I proud to tell other people that I'm straight (in the rare environment when it isn't assumed #straightwhitemaleprivilege). But when other people tell me that they're gay, I can almost always sense at least a little bit of trepidation after they say it because they don't know that my reaction will basically be, "Oh, big deal." So it's still a brave thing to come out publicly as gay and anyone who does should feel proud of that bravery. But it's not a thing that people ought to be afraid to tell anyone. They shouldn't need to be brave and if we lived in a society where that was true, no one would be proud to come out as gay, it would just be normal.

So, to me, the reason we all support gay rights is because we think being gay is just as normal as being straight (or at least we think it ought to be). We expend all this energy, time, and resources to drive towards that ideal. Lately it's been feeling like a lot of progress has been made towards that goal, there is still a very long way to go but it is going to happen. If any kind of comparison can be made to racial equality, it won't happen in my lifetime but it WILL happen as long as we keep fighting. So, if the increasingly fewer people who oppose gay rights would just shut up already, we could stop expending on these resources and move on. Being gay would just be normal.

It's not that I don't enthusiastically support things like publicly announcing that they're gay, it's that I don't think I should have to because I think being gay is normal, I think everyone else should think that being gay is normal, I resent the people who don't think it's normal, and I look forward to a day when all this time and energy can be spent fighting for something else or just being productive members of society.
posted by VTX at 10:05 AM on October 30, 2014

IndigoJones: “By that reasoning, black pride must be unacceptable because Louis Farrakhan is nuts.”

read

the rest

of the comment
posted by koeselitz at 10:08 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

When did I say that one person spoke for all of you? What I was saying was that "my friend, who is gay, said something that influenced my personal opinion of things."

Getting unnecessarily heated here, or looking to read in to something that's not there.

VTX says above this what I'm trying to see, but with much better clarity.
posted by GreyboxHero at 10:10 AM on October 30, 2014

I am glad he said it. It's really useful, especially to young people.

I am a bit confused about what "taking pride" means on a literal level, beyond being a piece of (generally useful) political rhetoric or a sort of magic phrase to boost one's own spirits.

This may well be a limitation of my own cognitive/emotional abilities, but I am incapable of taking pride, if that implies any sort of volition. I can't imagine how I'd evoke pride in myself. It seems to be a feeling that either comes over me or doesn't. And I don't have any traits of which I'm prideful all the time. (I tend to feel pride more for accomplishments than traits, but even then there's no guarantee I'll feel it.) Certainly, when people have said "you should be proud of that," I haven't automatically felt pride, even if I thought they had a point.

As someone who tends to obsess over internal states, I wonder how much Cook means, "I am just describing the pride that, for whatever reason, I feel," "I would like to feel pride and see no logical reason why I shouldn't," or, unlike me, "I have chosen to feel pride and was able to steer my mind in that direction."
posted by grumblebee at 10:23 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

If it really doesn't matter to people and it's all the same....then it's all the same.

But it's not all the same. There are still states in the US where it's OK to fire somebody because of their sexuality. There are still states where gay people can't get married. Pretending like this isn't the case doesn't help anything.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 10:24 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

What we really need to to know is if he is a 6 or a 6+ and does he bend.
posted by srboisvert at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2014

GreyboxHero: “Not even remotely homophobic, but I don't understand why people think heralding gays is more progressive than heralding straights.

If it really doesn't matter to people and it's all the same....then it's all the same. Don't want to praise anybody for being gay any more than I need praise for being straight.

Pretty sure this is an unpopular opinion, but - if the idea is equal rights and treatment for any sexual preference, IMHO this is heading backwards.”

Okay. I will try to explain it carefully.

The point of "coming out" is to make the political statement that gay people exist. I appreciate that this is not a radical statement to you. Neither is it a radical statement to me. To me, it's just a fact. But there are a lot of people who still don't accept this fact.

The whole basis of the old heterosexist regime was this lie that normal, boring old homosexual people flatly do not exist. The idea was that homosexuals are always "deviants," or they're always "weirdos," or that they're always products of abuse, or some other variation on "just a broken thing, not a normal human." Nobody is really gay – they were just damaged and became confused. This is what people told themselves, and it's what almost all straight people believed. Which meant that homosexuals who existed were forced to live their lives in utter secret.

You may say – so what? Everybody's sex life is pretty much private anyway, isn't it? The answer is: no, not really. The sex itself isn't something we often like to talk about, and that's just fine; but we humans date each other, we marry each other, we hold each others' hands in public and kiss each other. With these associations come the other things we share: decisions about our health; visitation rights in prison; financial and economic bonds.

When we deny these very public things to gay people, we are denying them their rights based on their sexuality. And the defense for this denial of rights is always the same: the defense is the claim that true homosexuals don't really exist.

So the fight for equal rights for homosexuals must take place primarily along these lines: the radical assertion that, yes, homosexuals exist, they are all around us, and they are our brothers and sisters. You may not be affected by this radical assertion, but it has done an infinitude of good for the world, and we still see its impact every day. On the crassest level, politicians who took anti-homosexual stances in the past have reversed course when they've seen that their own family members are homosexuals themselves. But even just in everyday life, when straight people who might not be evil people but just have a very confused idea of how homosexuality works realize that the people they care about are actually gay, this can have an extraordinary impact.

All this is leaving aside perhaps the most important impact that coming out can have: it can give hope to young gay people who struggle with who they are and question their worth.

Again, I appreciate that this doesn't do much to change your position. But it has changed the positions of millions of people thus far, and has beyond question been the most important tactic in the progressive opening of society to the acceptance of equality for homosexuals.
posted by koeselitz at 10:30 AM on October 30, 2014 [47 favorites]

"It doesn't matter to me, so why make a big deal about it?"

I HATE these kinds of remarks! Newsflash! Tim Cook's coming out is not about YOU!
posted by feste at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2014 [12 favorites]

I appreciate the stated ideal that we should all be treated equally and being gay or straight should be a non-issue, but the fact remains that we aren't there yet.

So, yes, comments like that are unpopular because they can feel very dismissive of what the LGBTQA population has been through and is going through in a thread that is ostensibly a celebration of our incremental progress.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:38 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

I'm a little more surprised by him proclaiming his belief in God than saying he's gay.
posted by fungible at 10:43 AM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

Not deliberately picking on this comment, but:

"if gays want to be not seen as different or special, they should stop asking to be treated special or differently."

I think maybe a lot of gay people would be happy not to be seen as different or treated as special - like, let them marry who they love and visit their partners in hospitals and not be fired for who they sleep with. There's a shockingly large swathe of the world (parts of the US of A, even!) where these simple things are not ok.

Take away the special discrimination and teh gayz stop with the pride parades: fair trade?
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:44 AM on October 30, 2014 [7 favorites]

The importance is in the establishment that there are people of all variations in all walks of life. One can simultaneously be accepting and happy for Cook, but still think his business practices are questionable.
The thing to celebrate is that more and more people are comfortable enough to publicly acknowledge all the aspects of who they are. It is... amusing that the rich and powerful are the ones who generally wait until things are a bit safer before they come out, but, there it is.

Given that the acceptability of being able to come out without fearing for your life (not the case in all circumstances!) is still kinda new I don't think bitching about how boring it is, is terribly appropriate. Give it another 20-50-100 years and maybe we can have a decent nuanced discussion about it. And! really, also given that marriage equality is only one piece of the puzzle of equal rights (just how many states is it legal to fire people because of sexual orientation?) there still is a long road to travel legally, let along culturally. So, bully for those who have no trace of homophobia, kudos and suchlike. but, if that's the extent of your engagement then please step to the side there's still actual work to be done.
posted by edgeways at 10:46 AM on October 30, 2014

"I'm not [type of bigot], but [bigoted statement]" is such an interesting statement. It seems such a cliche, that someone making is demonstrating not only a lack of awareness of their own bigotry but a lack of awareness of bigotry even existing.
posted by Metafilter Username at 10:48 AM on October 30, 2014 [11 favorites]

There are 29 states in the US where Cook could legally be fired for saying what he just said.

And people are talking about special treatment?

Pull the other one. It's got bells on.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:50 AM on October 30, 2014 [29 favorites]

Yesterday, my wife was explaining to my 7 year old about a dumb kerfluffle here in Chile about the government distributing a book called "Nicolás tiene dos papás" (Nicolás has two dads) to public kindergartens, so she starts out with "it means that some men like other men...", when he interrupts with "Oh, so he's gay?", then just keeps on talking about minecraft or youtube or whatever 7 year olds actually care about.
So I have hope for the next generations.
posted by signal at 10:56 AM on October 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

Take away the special discrimination and teh gayz stop with the pride parades: fair trade?

Your intentional spelling/grammar mangling, which insinuates through a sarcastic view that everyone who disagrees with your position is stupid and hostile, encapsulates the exchange of ideas every time this stuff comes up. Not one person has expressed hostility towards others' sexuality. The resulting hostility is insulting.

Here's the rub-- double-standards are the polar opposite of equality. Suggesting that they're equivalents is disingenuous, and all the defensiveness in the world doesn't erase that fact. Getting pissed off because someone points out that your position is inconsistent with your stated objective isn't productive.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:10 AM on October 30, 2014

Mayor Curley - thanks for pointing out that exact issue.

Totally aware of the cliche nature of my first post, but I don't see anywhere on this page where anything close to bigotry takes place. Maybe some people looking to be offended, but nothing that's actually offensive.

How is it bigoted for me to say "I think all people are equal, and wish that sexuality wasn't of note at all. Even though it currently is to people who aren't me, I wish it wasn't."

It sucks that there are scenarios out there were being gay leads to problems for that personal, whether internal or external. Wish that wasn't the case.
posted by GreyboxHero at 11:18 AM on October 30, 2014

So, if one reads the comments without reading the article first, one might have to get halfway through the thread before realizing that Tim Cook and Tim Gunn aren't the same person. Honestly, I really didn't see what all the fuss was about till then.
posted by selfmedicating at 11:22 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

How is it bigoted for me to say "I think all people are equal, and wish that sexuality wasn't of note at all. Even though it currently is to people who aren't me, I wish it wasn't."

That wasn't what you said the first time around, but I dunno, I'm just a gay dude who has to live in your world.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:27 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

Some days I wonder how many people think "Colbert" is an actual role model when he says he's colorblind.
posted by kmz at 11:35 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

GreyboxHero, this statement of yours in particular:

If it really doesn't matter to people and it's all the same....then it's all the same. Don't want to praise anybody for being gay any more than I need praise for being straight.

Pretty sure this is an unpopular opinion, but - if the idea is equal rights and treatment for any sexual preference, IMHO this is heading backwards.

Several people have outlined exactly why prominent figures publicly stating they are gay has made a huge difference and continues to be the single best tool to fight for equal rights for all sexual orientations. Your statement above directly attacks that idea, and you have not really acknowledged anything others have said about it being helpful, only continued to say that "ugh this sucks i wish it weren't necessary." Yes, obviously everyone here wishes the same, but it is.

All that stuff is why people are alluding to bigotry or tone-deafness.

I'm also going to pick on this one, sorry:

I don't understand why people think heralding gays is more progressive than heralding straights.

progressive: favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters

Surely you acknowledge the historical stigmatization of and discrimination against LGBTQA people. In that light, what other term can you possibly apply to public acknowledgement of prominent figures being gay? Look at the earlier responses in this thread saying "this is a bit of a yawn, and that's a good thing": *that* is progress.

And he certainly doesn't ask for any special treatment or heralding. From Tim Cook's own statement:

Part of social progress is understanding that a person is not defined only by one’s sexuality, race, or gender. I’m an engineer, an uncle, a nature lover, a fitness nut, a son of the South, a sports fanatic, and many other things. I hope that people will respect my desire to focus on the things I’m best suited for and the work that brings me joy.
posted by pahalial at 11:41 AM on October 30, 2014 [8 favorites]

I didn't really have any opinions about it one way or the other until a friend of mine who is gay said that he thought, "if gays want to be not seen as different or special, they should stop asking to be treated special or differently."

We're not. We're asking to be treated the goddamn same.

Attention all non-queer people saying things like this: It's not about you.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:53 AM on October 30, 2014 [12 favorites]

There is nothing couragous about a powerful person coming out. But it does contribute to an environment where it is safe for those without power to come out.

40% of homeless youth are LGBT.
LGBT youth are 3x more likely to commit suicide, more so for T youth.

So yeah, we can talk about a magic world where people don't have to come out and not seek special distinction, but we live in a country where it is still shitty to be queer if you aren't in a position of power. To he deserves our thanks for at least being open. It is a small but needed contribution.
posted by munchingzombie at 11:53 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

And, actually: if you think we're asking to be treated special or differently (you indicated that you agree with your friend), please elucidate exactly how we are asking for different treatment.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:56 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

munchingzombie: There is nothing couragous about a powerful person coming out.

I dunno, powerful people can lose their power, yeah? It's obviously more courageous for people who don't have Tim Cook's enormous advantages of wealth, whiteness, etc. to be openly gay, trans, etc., but saying there's "nothing courageous" about this sounds wrong-headed to me.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:58 AM on October 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

There is nothing couragous about a powerful person coming out.

If that was true, why has it taken so long to happen?

What's not spoken of as much is the open, public, unequivocal support from Apple's board. In another time not even as far back as last decade, another CEO at another company would be quietly pushed to resign.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:00 PM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]

Hey, just because someone is powerful in their career does not make them immune from homophobia. You're totally wrong. Money may protect you in some things--not getting evicted or losing your job, but it's not a cakewalk to be gay, is it?
posted by feste at 12:01 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

> ... one might have to get halfway through the thread before realizing that Tim Cook and Tim Gunn aren't the same person.

Count me as one more. Had to google Cook to be reminded who he was. Am now flinching contemplating Mac Pride Parades, with a giant featureless balloon representing the next Apple mouse concept, and a float representing Objective-C, which goes on for much longer that you would expect, considering what it actually accomplishes.

No matter what, I'm glad this guy can lead the life he wants and be open about his sexuality. I'm still not installing iTunes though.
posted by benito.strauss at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2014

OK. I'm going to clarify one time and then bow out of this...it seems like people are either misinterpreting what I originally, or seemingly even want to. I'm partly to blame, but for future reference the assumption of negativity and aggressive tones are why these conversations never seem to be productive.

My original post is saying:

1. I agree with the VTX post, in that I look forward to a day where sexual orientation is just not even a talking point
2. At times I wonder if the current way we openly praise people for being gay and have an acceptable level of special treatment is the best way to get to some realm with truly equal treatment
3. With most gays seemingly admitting that they want to have the same treatment as straights, to quote another poster, the double-standard maybe is counter-productive....I don't know

What it seems like people WANT it to say is:

1. Being gay is nothing special
2. It's not hard to come out or be openly gay
3. Quit acting special, get over it

Sorry to have tried to engage on a topic and offended you all - wasn't the intention. To the LGBT posters...maybe don't assume the worst when trying to interpret opinions?
posted by GreyboxHero at 12:34 PM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

2. At times I wonder if the current way we openly praise people for being gay and have an acceptable level of special treatment is the best way to get to some realm with truly equal treatment

Please explain what this 'special treatment' you speak of is.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:37 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Mayor Curley: Here's the rub-- double-standards are the polar opposite of equality. Suggesting that they're equivalents is disingenuous, and all the defensiveness in the world doesn't erase that fact.

Sorry, I must be having a particularly dense day, but I don't understand this bit at all. When I say people should be able to marry who they want, visit their partners in hospitals, and not have to risk being fired over who they sleep with, are you saying that's a double standard? Surely not? To me that seems like very basic equality...? I'm genuinely confused by your comment, not trying to have an argument.

If you're calling my comment about gay pride parades being needed (but not straight pride parades), okay, yes, I acknowledge that isn't perfectly equal. And the law in its majestic equality forbids both the rich man and the beggar from sleeping under the bridge, right?

Not one person has expressed hostility towards others' sexuality.

Tell that to the people in those 29 states linked upthread where people can be fired just for being gay.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:37 PM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

Five reasons why it's a huge deal.

Focused on the tech industry, but worth it for the larger view. To borrow a phrase from our Vice-President, "This is a huge fucking deal."
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:40 PM on October 30, 2014

Stack A is one meter tall. Stack B is ten meters tall. You want these stacks to be equal, so you start adding to Stack A.

"Whoa, whoa. If you believe in equality, you have to add to both stacks equally!"

Come on. The situation is much more complex than than volumes of paper. You don't want to confront the contradiction of equality through double standards, and I can't make you. But facile analogies are suited for preaching to choirs, not for discussion.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:41 PM on October 30, 2014

Mayor Curley: he contradiction of equality through double standards

Yeah, because it's neither a contradiction nor a double standard.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:43 PM on October 30, 2014

Sorry to have tried to engage on a topic and offended you all - wasn't the intention. To the LGBT posters...maybe don't assume the worst when trying to interpret opinions?

Is it really so much to ask that you read the posted article?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:43 PM on October 30, 2014

GreyboxHero: “Sorry to have tried to engage on a topic and offended you all - wasn't the intention. To the LGBT posters...maybe don't assume the worst when trying to interpret opinions?”

Nobody "assumed the worst." They actually read your comment. This is what you said:

GreyboxHero: “if the idea is equal rights and treatment for any sexual preference, IMHO this is heading backwards.”

You quite clearly and literally said that Tim Cook coming out is bad for equality, that it causes inequality. The pretty clear implication is that coming out of the closet only hurts people, that nobody should do it.

Can you understand why that bothered people? I guess you probably didn't mean to phrase it that way – I imagine that's the charitable way to read your comment, even though I have no reason to believe you meant the opposite of what you actually said.

You can't blame other people for taking you at your word. If you don't think coming out of the closet hurts equality, you should probably retract that earlier statement and make it clear that you misspoke.
posted by koeselitz at 12:46 PM on October 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

Sorry, I must be having a particularly dense day, but I don't understand this bit at all. When I say people should be able to marry who they want, visit their partners in hospitals, and not have to risk being fired over who they sleep with, are you saying that's a double standard? Surely not? To me that seems like very basic equality...? I'm genuinely confused by your comment, not trying to have an argument.

I'm losing my patience. The above is a straw man argument. You're not paraphrasing anyone in the thread. The issue is about the terms "proud" and "pride." That's it. I can't tell if you're being disingenuous for the sake of rhetoric, of if your emotions are so overclocked that you think the mere act of not being in 100% agreement with you makes someone party to the ugliness that you're bringing up. Either way, please reconsider.
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:46 PM on October 30, 2014

I don't believe greyboxhero. Literally, don't believe.

2. At times I wonder if the current way we openly praise people for being gay and have an acceptable level of special treatment is the best way to get to some realm with truly equal treatment

3. With most gays seemingly admitting that they want to have the same treatment as straights, to quote another poster, the double-standard maybe is counter-productive....I don't know

Trolling? All these dog-whistles, plus the gay friend who think the gays are just too gay.
posted by feste at 12:48 PM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]

You don't want to confront the contradiction of equality through double standards, and I can't make you.

If you want to call 'creating a level playing field' a 'double standard," I can't stop you, but 'double standard' is pretty much exclusively used as a negative term. So I am left baffled as to the actual argument you are making here. Are you saying it's a negative that us queer folks are having to have a societal thumb put on the scales to achieve balance? If so, how would you suggest equality be achieved, and what exactly do you think these negative double standards are, and to whom are they a negative?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Mayor Curley: “I'm losing my patience. The above is a straw man argument.”

Sorry, Mayor Curley, but you were kind of unclear. I have no idea what the "double standards" are that you mentioned in your earlier comment. RedOrGreen is grasping at straws, but they made that clear in their comment. What "double standards" are you talking about?

This is important because people are tossing around the term a fair bit now, and it's worth it to say what we mean.
posted by koeselitz at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Mayor Curley: The issue is about the terms "proud" and "pride."

Pride is the equal and opposite reaction to the decades upon decades of shame that people have felt. It's hostile and frankly despicable to tell people they shouldn't be allowed to to feel good -- not just neutral or indifferent -- about something they've been conditioned by society to think of as a personal failure, disease, or lifestyle choice. Humans aren't capable of erasing their memories as you seem to wish they would.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:53 PM on October 30, 2014 [12 favorites]

Count me as one more. Had to google Cook to be reminded who he was. Am now flinching contemplating Mac Pride Parades, with a giant featureless balloon representing the next Apple mouse concept, and a float representing Objective-C, which goes on for much longer that you would expect, considering what it actually accomplishes.

Since you obviously didn't notice the thousands of Apple people who marched in the SF Pride parade this summer, you don't have anything to worry about.
posted by sideshow at 12:57 PM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]

I used to believe this until I saw enough terrifying examples of interior design and fashion in magazines to realise it would be a huge mistake to always assume gay aesthetics are superior

Yes! One of the great things about the gradual increase in out LGBT people is that we're seeing not just the astonishingly powerful, talented, great LGBT people who have the ability to come out, but also the ordinary, average, even a-little-bit-rubbish people coming out.

Which is just leading me up to the point I really want to make: Scott Mills can't dance at all, even if he is gay, and should be booted off STRICTLY COME DANCING. Come on, UK! He's rubbish!

When Joe the agricultural worker in Alabama can be shit at dancing, crap at decorating his house, and wear really unfashionable clothes and still be gay and that's fine, we'll have made it. But to get there, we have to have powerful, rich LGBT people like Tim Cook come out. So good for him.
posted by alasdair at 12:57 PM on October 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

GreyboxHero: we openly praise people for being gay

We don't. Coming out as a public figure (or as a private figure) is a separate act from just being gay. It wasn't exactly a secret before the announcement that Tim Cook was gay, and nobody was praising him, openly or privately, for it. Nobody is praising him, openly or privately, for it now.

We're praising him for coming out publicly, and thereby removing a little more of the stigma from being gay.

I know from personal experience that it makes a huge big difference to people (some of whom are here commenting) who are in communities where being gay is frowned-upon or even dangerous and illegal to see the other world where it is no big deal.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 2:38 PM on October 30, 2014 [16 favorites]

It's hostile and frankly despicable to tell people they shouldn't be allowed to to feel good -- not just neutral or indifferent -- about something they've been conditioned by society to think of as a personal failure ...

Why is that, exactly? By what logic? If were a bad thing for me to feel pride for being straight (and it absolutely would be), it is also a bad thing to feel pride in one's homosexuality. Why? Because it's devisive and necessarily results in the classification of the "Other." You are holding one group to a different standard than the other, because you sympathize with them. Not because there's any logical justification to fighting past injustices with future slights. Every justification comes down to "I'm cool with it because I like them."

When right wingers "justify" like that for their causes, it probably pisses you off. It certainly does that to me! Well, this is the same thing. You're making up for past injustices with two different standards of conduct. That doesn't promote equality, it promotes resentment. If you're for two sets of standards, you are by definition NOT for equality.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:28 PM on October 30, 2014

I'm not cool with it just because I like them. I'm cool with it because they actually overcame something. If you want to feel pride in being straight feel free. But if you start telling people you feel proud of it, maybe tell us what you overcome to come out as a straight. Tell us how your parents disowned you because you came out as liking the opposite sex. Tell us how you got fired because you held hands with the opposite sex after work in front of the wrong person who told your boss. Tell us about the time you were scared shitless about what would happen if you came out as a heterosexual person. That never happens though, does it?

Think of it this way. If I, an able bodied person climbs a flight of stairs, is that worthy of pride? Of course not. What about if I got into a serious accident, was told I may never walk again, and by some miracle I was able to recuperate and through years of physical therapy and sweat and tears I was finally able to climb a flight of stairs? Would you ask "Why does Green With You feel pride just for walking up some stairs when I do that all the time?" Of course not. It's a different situation.

Eventually coming out as gay will be about as shocking as coming out as straight and when that happens if a bunch of gay people still talk about their pride in being gay you'll maybe have something of a point. Until then you just sound like a spoiled kid upset someone else got a toy you wanted even though you already have a bunch of cool stuff.
posted by Green With You at 4:00 PM on October 30, 2014 [19 favorites]

You're making up for past injustices with two different standards of conduct.

Our entire society is predicated on pride in being straight. These are not different standards of conduct--we have to yell just to be heard.

If you're for two sets of standards, you are by definition NOT for equality.

We're not for two standards. You seem to think we are, however, so: did you, a straight man, seriously just tell a bunch of queer people that we aren't in favour of equality?

That's like any man telling a feminist she doesn't want equality. Do you see the problem with your behaviour?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:06 PM on October 30, 2014

I was listening to NPR on the way home and, apparently, Ted Cruz got asked on Fox News about Cook coming out and said something like "people are entitled to make choices, even if I don't agree with them". So tell me again that it doesn't matter when someone stands up and says they're proud to be gay.

Obligatory Klaus Wowereit clip.
posted by hoyland at 4:13 PM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

A real-world double standard for the Double Standard Crowd: Cartoon Network censored its first gay kiss

However, Rothbell later softened his stance, saying that overall, even a toned-down kiss was a positive step forward: “It’s such a minor throwaway moment but I guess it’s better than nothing…Maybe one day the main character can be gay and it won’t be a big deal,” he said.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 4:14 PM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Mayor Curley: Why is that, exactly? By what logic?

Because of the part you left out of your pull quote, the part where I explain that the pride is a reaction to the lifetime of shame they felt in the closet. Anyone who overcomes adversity ought to be able to have pride in the fact that it's over, and that they're where they were meant to be, and that they no longer have to hide anything. Your hyper-literalism of trying to compare it to "straight pride" is a laughably obtuse attempt to recognize that one orientation is the norm that's celebrated in our culture, while the other is so detested that coming out is actually a thing.

Unless you have a new argument to make that doesn't depend on a ridiculous false equivalence between straight pride and gay pride, I'm done trying to explain something you obviously don't have any interest in understanding.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:29 PM on October 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

Mayor Curley: “If you're for two sets of standards, you are by definition NOT for equality.”

I understand that this seems intuitively and simply true, but it isn't. In a courtroom, there is one law that ought to apply to everyone; but that law has as many applications as there are people who appear before it. The rapist and the victim are not treated the same by a just court; they are not both locked up in jail, or both set free. In the world, in order to treat people equitably, we must treat them differently.

This is the context we need to understand what "gay pride" means. "Gay pride" generally does not mean "I am proud that I prefer sex with people of my gender." It generally refers to an embrace of one's heritage as a member of a historical group that has had to struggle to make a place for itself in society, that has developed its own culture and significations. It is like "black pride" in that sense: although there are people of many cultures and societies who are "black," they find common cause in their struggle to make a place for themselves in a white supremacist society. "Black pride" refers to this struggle and the positive identity it produced; "white pride" refers to eager membership in the class whose violence made that struggle necessary. "Gay pride" similarly is a marker of solidarity which makes sense within the context of the society in which it arose. "Straight pride" – which is not even really a thing, no matter how much certain conservatives have tried to make it one – would refer to the active repression of the group against which it is defined. Straight people have no historic struggle against a monolithic group that sought to repress their sexuality; and even if they did, "straight pride" would clearly have been defined solely as in opposition to "gay pride," and would be tainted by that association. "Straight pride" can only be reactionary.

Equality doesn't mean we treat everyone exactly the same, no matter who they are or what they do. "Double standards" are indeed something to avoid; but treating different people differently, and different groups differently, is no "double standard." It's just the result of applying a single standard equitable and fairly to a world of people who happen to be very different from each other.
posted by koeselitz at 4:34 PM on October 30, 2014 [6 favorites]

Pride is a sin. LOL. You guys thought it would be that easy!?
posted by phaedon at 4:35 PM on October 30, 2014

I'm just gonna ignore Mayor Curley here cause he seems to be having a ball with his rhetorical questions, and I have no doubt he'll eventually roll into a just-speaking-the-truth-and-you-people-can't-take-it endgame. But I want to give GreyboxHero a bit more benefit-of-the-doubt, so I'll share some of my past.

Growing up, there were literally zero out gay people that I personally knew. None. I knew of nobody in my school, nobody in my town, nobody in the nearby towns. I didn't even encounter gay characters in literature until I read Dune, and while I do love Dune I think we could all agree Baron Harkonnen is not a great role model. And I was teased and bullied a lot at school, I think more than most kids. So when 'gay' gets mixed in with all the other insults, and you don't really know what it means, you go with the context: it's bad, it's wrong, it's not right, it's a reason you're about to get hit, it's a reason you deserve to get hit, it's the reason we don't like you.

This gets rooted deep. Even when I had gone to university and met an actual! real! gay! person! face to face, it took me many years to get over my own fears about being gay because if I was gay, well, maybe all the other insults that had been (literally) pounded into me over the years were true too. Maybe I was always going to be a failure, maybe nobody would ever want to be friends with me. It took five years before I could even tell myself that I was gay. Before then it was just nervousness, giving sidelong glances at myself, wondering why I never seemed to understand how dating worked. Five years of waste and self-doubt.

Now, if there had been somebody of Tim Cook's level (or industry, since I was a mac fanboy even in the dark times of Amelio) who had come out as gay back then, maybe I could have seen that 'gay' was not a bad thing. Like, if I had know that Arthur C Clarke or Rick Mercer were gay, I would have felt so better. If as many people were as out then as are out now, those five years would have been much shorter. So we are not praising people for being gay: we are saying how glad we are that they can say they're gay, and thanking them for giving people like 17-year-old me some reference to see that they're okay.

So, no, this is not heading backwards. This is one way we reach equality.

PS: if you want to use your gay friend as a voice in a discussion, please have him come here himself. I know that I don't want anybody misquoting me as 'my gay friend said...'.
posted by smasuch at 5:11 PM on October 30, 2014 [14 favorites]

Pride is a sin. LOL. You guys thought it would be that easy!?

Pardon?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:17 PM on October 30, 2014

I'm Australian and recently started a new job in Uganda, so I'm living there now. I almost turned it down because of Uganda's terrible status for homosexual people, but figured it would be more valuable to be there, make friends and learn a bit of language and talk to people about it. In the same way that I grew up thinking of gay people as weird and perverted until I actually met a few and thought about it critically for the first time, I hope that I can talk to people here and give them a different point of view. I've only been here for about a month, but I've spoken to a few people and though no one is converting on the spot, the rhetoric does change a little when they realise they're talking about my friends and family, and when I explain my thoughts on it.

All this is to say that it is still very valuable to have respected, important people publicly come out. It is so much easier to demonise 'the gays' when they are faceless strangers. Now, when I'm having the conversation here, I can say that the man who runs the company that makes the phone in your hand - that man is gay. That on its own is unlikely to change minds, but it adds a data point - in addition to the mass of 'perverted freaks', there's a person who is successful and clever and lots of things as well as being gay. It humanises the discussion, and shifts it slightly away from whether or not some particular sex acts are appealing to you.

This is important. No matter how little it may change thing in your immediate circles, this is very important in many other places that are yet to be so open.
posted by twirlypen at 5:42 PM on October 30, 2014 [8 favorites]

The whole concept of gay pride and coming out are vestiges of an old and successful movement that's still hanging onto old modes out of habit and because, when you're under constant attack, you dig in and solidify your positions. Gay pride was never about being prouder of being gay than of being straight, except in certain annoying big city circles—it was about compensatory pride to cancel out the shitloads of shame that we had dumped on us, and to fill in that hole until we were on level ground with the rest of y'all.

Coming out, too, is an overblown bit of theater that was required when people finding out you were gay would put on their own all-star all-singing, all-dancing, fully electric anguish party in response, so we became good at the ridiculous spectacle of having to sit family down to deliver the news like announcing a death among the ranks.

Due to my meticulous record-keeping, I have the entire series of letters, on lavender notebook paper, written in ink that once smelled of strawberries, in the loopy hand of my high school girlfriend Lurleen, writing to me in response to my coming out to her by mail while she was in juvie lockup after running away to NYC to stalk Cyndi Lauper, and they are horrifying for more than just the annoying fact that she wrote everything like the lyrics to a Prince album.

Dear Joe-B,

I am not ashamed of U at all and there is alot of hope 4 U even though U R gay. I want U and me 2 B friends forever and as U know, Cyndi luvs gays on account of She Bop talking about Blueboy, which as U know is totally 4 gays. I think…

It goes on, but my blood curdles. God, but youth is a horrible thing.

I didn't come out to my parents, because the school did it for me, but I had to sit people down and do the "I feel like I need to let you know that I'm gay" thing over and over and man, even for someone as pretentious and theatrical as me, it's a hell of a thing, playing out that awkward movie of the week time and again.

These days, I'm neutral, and coming out isn't coming out—it's not announcements, it's not correction, it's not minced or nuanced or anything, because I don't feel like I need to do that. I was working a big construction job in another state and was returning in the back seat of a Hilux crew cab with a toolbox in my lap and three regular rough-and-tumbles in the other seats as we high-tailed it for Maryland at ten at night. The talk was sports and work and the foreman on the job who ain't doin' shit for his paycheck and then it drifted onto wives and the endless series of complaints blue collar guys have about wives they adore enough to fuel bar fights over casual glances.

"You married, Joe?" asks the senior guy in the truck. He's ruddy and well-worn, obviously a guy who played football in high school and had great hair that he will never, ever cut again because it's the last tie to that time in his life when he was still a star, and he's charming in that gravelly way that rough-and-tumbles from Glen Burnie can be.

"Nope."

"Lucky you."

"Yeah. I've been trying to break up with the same dude for nine years, but I'm not sure if that counts."

There's a pause, but only just. This is the year 2014 and even the rough-and-tumbles seem to have gotten the message that whatever floats your boat floats your boat, and whose business is it, anyway.

"As long as the dude's got you by the balls, it counts."

I feel pride, just then, but not for the outcome of genetics—I feel pride that I came out in the middle of the fucking nightmare of the Reagan years, and in the middle of the Reagan Memorial AIDS Epidemic™, when no comedian was without his har-har-harlarious fag-with-AIDS joke and no politician was on our side, and I was out in high school, overwrought or no, and here I am in the world of the future and I don't have the slightest pause or doubt or hitch in my conversation to indicate where I'm supposed to mark the little uncertainty of shame that was drilled into me by our ugly, meanspirited culture.

I snorted. "He gets 'em when I say so," I say, and everyone laughs.

What a fucking world this is.

When I revisit those places in the back of my head where all the old incarnations of me live, I want to tell them, it's all going to change, and being gay will eventually be one of the least interesting things about you, which is okay, because you, little Joe-in-training, are a fucking hell of a guy, even though your hair looks idiotic, white seersucker is impossible to keep clean, and Tones On Tail are not the greatest band in the world. I was dropped into the blender in a decade that turned everything about America to shit, and here I am, and yeah, another dude's got me by the balls. So what?

Who needs a flying car in this world of the future? Not me.

But the vestiges are there. The notion of pride will hang around for a few more decades like a crusty old gay uncle who tries too hard with his rainbow accessories and bear claw tattoos and whatever that fucking ring is doing on the end of his dick, and coming out will carry on as long as there are kids in theater club, and even the idea of "being" gay, itself a document of its time, will hang around a while until things equalize, but change is coming, faster and stronger than the forces of opposition think.

I am not proud to be gay. I'm just a dude who likes dudes, there's nothing wrong with that or right with that other than for my own self, and I'm looking forward to the day when my nieces' and nephew's kids "come out" by saying, "Yeah, Mike asked me to the prom, so I need to get a tux" or "Ma, I'm going on a date with Jenny and I need the car." We should reserve the fireworks for scholarships and winning essay contests and becoming great athletes and developing great maturity and compassion, because those are things.

I'm proud that I came out on the other side, because that was a hell of a thing. Real punk rock, that.

Elsewise—

"Joe, did you 'forget' to take off your badge from the curling club?" my friends and coworkers will ask, seeing the little blue plate pinned on my shirt on a Wednesday after the morning draw, and yeah, I "forget" to take it off all the time because goddamn if I'm not proud to be a lumpen Big Lebowski of curling, because that's something I chose.

"Oh, ah, I forgot to put it in my gym bag," I say, but I am monumentally full of shit and am just hoping to trap some hapless person in endless conversation about curling, or beekeeping, or modular synthesis, or any of the other things that are my joys and avocations and accomplishments. Where my dick leads me, to be coarse, seems to much less interesting, unless I end up hooked up with Stephen Fry, at which point I will absolutely not be able to shut up about it.

In the meantime, we all do the best we can.
posted by sonascope at 7:10 PM on October 30, 2014 [40 favorites]

Not that i've seen it much or at all here, but the general sentiment floating around on social media of white gay dudes going "oh jeeze, he's a rich white gay dude, who cares, nextttt" or "oh of course everyone cares, he's a rich white dude" is REALLY tiresome.

something something circular firing squad white guilt something something.
posted by emptythought at 7:10 PM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]

Pardon?

I was just trollin' really hard.
posted by phaedon at 7:47 PM on October 30, 2014

Who needs a flying car in this world of the future? Not me.

Sonascope, bravo, as usual - I love it. But have a flying car anyway.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:48 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]

Not sure what all the fuss is about. --- posted from my iMac.
posted by SPrintF at 8:22 PM on October 30, 2014

Straight people totally have pride in being straight.

I was at a Halloween parade last night. The women's dance troupe blowing kisses to all the cute guys? They seemed proud to be straight. The men dressed as luchadores flexing and showing off for the ladies? They seemed proud to be straight. And while I can really only speak to the male side of things, there are plenty of men who love to announce unbidden to other men just how much they like some aspect of heterosexuality. They are definitely proud to be straight.

So if you want to say a LGBTQ pride parade is "special treatment," call me when one of those dozens of dancers is blowing kisses to the cute girls and ignoring the guys and when there is a chance in hell one of those cute wrestler guys is going to flex his muscles for me.
posted by Zalzidrax at 7:29 AM on October 31, 2014 [5 favorites]

I was listening to NPR on the way home and, apparently, Ted Cruz got asked on Fox News about Cook coming out and said something like "people are entitled to make choices, even if I don't agree with them".

Of course the Cruz subtext there is that being gay is a choice, not an integral part of the self.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:21 AM on October 31, 2014 [2 favorites]

The New Yorker: It's Still Hard to Come Out At Work.
posted by immlass at 11:05 AM on October 31, 2014

> The town is sort of an oasis in the rest of Alabama, but I wonder what the fallout from this will be there?

If the comments of al.com are to be believed, woe betide Alabama.
posted by Monochrome at 1:37 PM on October 31, 2014

I lived. So there's that. There's a pride in that. The realization that I'm not alone, that there are many ways to be gay, that I didn't need to feel confused and ashamed and desperate for permanent oblivion. The pride in actually being able to stand tall and tell mom I was American, more or less (haven't gone on a spree, after all).

This, a thousand times. Thank you, qcubed.

The fact that I'm not dead by my own hand, living unafraid, unashamed, and enjoying a reasonably happy existence? After a shitty closeted adolescence in circa-90's Southeast Texas (for almost any reason that might immediately spring to mind for you)? I will admit to being a tad proud of that. And it's not just me thinking I'm such a swell, interesting guy for being gay.

The pride comes from survival. From not letting outside influences cause you to feel you're abnormal or have less worth than other people. It's not born in a vacuum, and it's not an end in itself.

I'm beyond grateful to be living in this time and seeing such a tremendous change in the general public's attitude. Things aren't perfect, but they're good enough for me to not have an immediate and severe negative reaction to a straight person who misunderstand the source and the reason for things like Cook's announcement. Maybe the need for the big gay public coming-out is past us after all, right?

But all I have to do is think back (not too terribly long ago) on the forelorn, isolated, confused kid who prayed nightly for God to make him straight and save him from Hell and who had zero gay role models. To the imperfect (but whole) person he's become, it's obvious: if Cook's announcement eased the burden on just one gay kids' soul, then he has done good.

Lots of great points being brought up herein (and a lot of great rebuttals to not-so-great points). Thanks, all.
posted by kryptondog at 6:17 PM on October 31, 2014 [10 favorites]

Interesting post on Language Log about how Cook's announcement is being received in China.

"Tim Cook Coming Out Has Turned China Into a Nation of 5th-Graders: Despite the Apple CEO's good intentions, Chinese netizens can't seem to stop mocking iPhones for being gay. "

posted by benito.strauss at 5:20 PM on November 1, 2014

There's a pause, but only just.

For myself (and I know I'm speaking for everyone), this pause is just a slight delay as my brain parses information it's not used to hearing. I always worry that people will think I'm about to have some sort of negative reaction or that I don't like gay people or something and things suddenly get a little tense.

As an example, I was waiting for an eye appointment and overheard some guy talking with one of the customer service reps about his vision insurance and said, "I'm covered under my husband's insurance."

Whenever I had heard a man mention a spouse it was always their "wife" or, if they were gay, their "partner" but it was only a week after the same-sex marriage law took effect so this was the first time I had heard any gay man talk about his spouse and be able to refer to him as a husband.

It took just a moment for my brain to work that out (and it was delightful once I did). So I imagine that any time someone says something that implies that they're LGBTQ around people that don't spend a lot of time with LGBTQ folks, it's always going to take a moment while they think, "Wait what? OH, they are LGBTQ, now I get it."

I'm sorry if that little pause makes things uncomfortable for a moment but it will probably be there for a while yet. It's really no different than if you told a clever joke and it's takes me a second before I get it.
posted by VTX at 12:59 PM on November 2, 2014

Good Lord, I keep stumbling across these: Monument To Apple's Jobs Removed In Russia After CEO Comes Out.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:06 PM on November 3, 2014

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