A Federal Cab Marshal Service
December 3, 2014 8:31 AM Subscribe
Blake Ross details the ways in which the Nevada Taxicab Authority is fighting back against unscrupulous taxi drivers and out-innovating Uber & Lyft in the process.
pziemba: "Needs sarcasm tag. Like, really needs it. Reading the article is kind of obnoxious without it.
"
[sarcasm] Here you go [/sarcasm]
posted by signal at 8:49 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
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[sarcasm] Here you go [/sarcasm]
posted by signal at 8:49 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Taxi's are not the only entities in Vegas that count on the fact that you don't want to interact with their 'justice' system.
Vegas is the most hostile city I've ever visited in the US.
Protip: The hundreds of cameras scattered through the casino and the most sophisticated security system you've ever seen in your life is *not* there to protect your property. When in a casino pretend you are in a dark alleyway in NYC. Govern yourself accordingly.
posted by el io at 8:56 AM on December 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Vegas is the most hostile city I've ever visited in the US.
Protip: The hundreds of cameras scattered through the casino and the most sophisticated security system you've ever seen in your life is *not* there to protect your property. When in a casino pretend you are in a dark alleyway in NYC. Govern yourself accordingly.
posted by el io at 8:56 AM on December 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
I found that generally amusing as case study in governmental inefficiencies, but yeah, really really heavy on the sarcasm. I immediately started thinking back to my trips to Vegas and wondering how many times I got screwed by cabs. I have a memory fragment of wondering why we exited and drove around for a few turns on the other side of the highway from the strip when I was trying to get to the strip. It seemed really inefficient, but I probably wasn't paying close attention and was probably looking at emails or something on my phone.
posted by dios at 9:01 AM on December 3, 2014
posted by dios at 9:01 AM on December 3, 2014
We were in Boston for PAX Prime this spring, and took a cab from the airport to our hotel. On arrival, the meter read something like $34, about what I was expecting. We pull up, and the cabbie says, "$45.00." I looked at the meter, looked at him, and said, "The meter says $34, what's the extra?" Cabbie says, "The fare is $45."
We already had our luggage with us; I wrote his number down (and reported him that evening), gave him $34 in bills, and left. Whether he feels he was entitled to a tip or not, mis-reporting the fare when the meter is right there is seriously not cool.
I can imagine how many times this happens daily, and travelers are too tired or apathetic or just aren't paying attention.
posted by xedrik at 9:03 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
We already had our luggage with us; I wrote his number down (and reported him that evening), gave him $34 in bills, and left. Whether he feels he was entitled to a tip or not, mis-reporting the fare when the meter is right there is seriously not cool.
I can imagine how many times this happens daily, and travelers are too tired or apathetic or just aren't paying attention.
posted by xedrik at 9:03 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
Blake is a seriously funny guy, and I enjoyed reading this.
It still disheartens me that we’re so cynical about government dysfunction that we’ve decided the obvious solution is to farm out government functions to private companies. In this situation, I agree that an Uber-style dispute process is much more likely to work, and I agree that the Vegas taxicab companies have captured their regulators, but being snide about how long it takes them to put up a few signs is low-hanging fruit when you know why it takes them so long to put up signs. We end up preferring “easy” fixes (which, long-term, just swap one set of problems for another) instead of the hard fix because we don’t know what the hard fix is and don’t want to do the work of finding out.
I mean, government is different in that it is theoretically accountable to us. If it isn’t, then we try to fix it to make it more accountable, or in extreme cases we agitate to replace it with another government that is more accountable. Uber is a private company that is accountable to nobody but its investors (and, presumably, its eventual shareholders). Even if Uber and Lyft end up on top in the Vegas cab industry, they still need to be regulated, unless you think it’s OK for the company you’re paying to act as an arbiter in the issue of whether they overcharged you.
I don’t take issue with Blake’s frustration; I’m frustrated, too. I take issue with the chortling, as though government is this other thing that we can all point and laugh at, and not the result of our very own labors.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:09 AM on December 3, 2014 [14 favorites]
It still disheartens me that we’re so cynical about government dysfunction that we’ve decided the obvious solution is to farm out government functions to private companies. In this situation, I agree that an Uber-style dispute process is much more likely to work, and I agree that the Vegas taxicab companies have captured their regulators, but being snide about how long it takes them to put up a few signs is low-hanging fruit when you know why it takes them so long to put up signs. We end up preferring “easy” fixes (which, long-term, just swap one set of problems for another) instead of the hard fix because we don’t know what the hard fix is and don’t want to do the work of finding out.
I mean, government is different in that it is theoretically accountable to us. If it isn’t, then we try to fix it to make it more accountable, or in extreme cases we agitate to replace it with another government that is more accountable. Uber is a private company that is accountable to nobody but its investors (and, presumably, its eventual shareholders). Even if Uber and Lyft end up on top in the Vegas cab industry, they still need to be regulated, unless you think it’s OK for the company you’re paying to act as an arbiter in the issue of whether they overcharged you.
I don’t take issue with Blake’s frustration; I’m frustrated, too. I take issue with the chortling, as though government is this other thing that we can all point and laugh at, and not the result of our very own labors.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:09 AM on December 3, 2014 [14 favorites]
xedrik, your story is one of the reasons I celebrated the rise of Uber and Lyft - and still do.
In many cities that have extremely high bars to entering the taxi business, black market taxis flourish. It's been 20 years since I was last in London, but you couldn't walk the streets at night without someone offering you "Pssst - need a ride?". NYC has black market vans ferrying multiple passengers from Grand Central to JFK and LaGuardia.
These wouldn't exist if the government controls weren't odiously limiting the business. OTOH, a black market taxi makes me, a grown, fit man, nervous for his safety. Uber & Lyft provide a layer of accountability, and traceability on the driver, which undercuts that problem.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:23 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
In many cities that have extremely high bars to entering the taxi business, black market taxis flourish. It's been 20 years since I was last in London, but you couldn't walk the streets at night without someone offering you "Pssst - need a ride?". NYC has black market vans ferrying multiple passengers from Grand Central to JFK and LaGuardia.
These wouldn't exist if the government controls weren't odiously limiting the business. OTOH, a black market taxi makes me, a grown, fit man, nervous for his safety. Uber & Lyft provide a layer of accountability, and traceability on the driver, which undercuts that problem.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:23 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Whenever I go to Vegas, when I get in the cab and the cabbie says, "How are you doing? Where to?" I always say, "Doing great. I love coming back to Vegas. Of all my travels, shortest ride from airport to destination. Bellagio please." I never get taken the long route.
posted by 724A at 9:40 AM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by 724A at 9:40 AM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
Remind me to read every article this guy writes. It's rare that I am not only informed but amused by an article. With concise and efficient prose, he gets his point across without beating you over the head about it.. ... .... ..... ...... .......
Ok, now is everybody listening? Does this dude bro fucking work for uber? What does he care anyway? Sounds like he's been to Vegas enough times that an extra ten spot for a scenic drive wouldn't matter.. And is everyone arriving in Vegas such a pussy that they can't yell at their cabbie or refuse to tip? I've done it in NYC (very rarely) when a cabbie takes advantage. What exactly is dude bro saying that is new in any way about how Vegas works? Who fucking cares?
posted by ReeMonster at 9:49 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ok, now is everybody listening? Does this dude bro fucking work for uber? What does he care anyway? Sounds like he's been to Vegas enough times that an extra ten spot for a scenic drive wouldn't matter.. And is everyone arriving in Vegas such a pussy that they can't yell at their cabbie or refuse to tip? I've done it in NYC (very rarely) when a cabbie takes advantage. What exactly is dude bro saying that is new in any way about how Vegas works? Who fucking cares?
posted by ReeMonster at 9:49 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Black Market taxi"??? What is this, the Thieves Market in Bombay?? They're called gypsy cabs, negotiate the price before you get in and don't tip them!
posted by ReeMonster at 9:53 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ReeMonster at 9:53 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
"I never get taken the long route."
Because you showed the cabbie you know about the long haul.
If the Vegas cab authority just mandated a fixed price trip from LAS to the hotels, this would all go away. Because that's what Uber is doing and claiming victory over the cabbies.
(Personally, I take the SuperShuttle for $7. I don't need to get to the hotel 20 minutes quicker).
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:08 AM on December 3, 2014
Because you showed the cabbie you know about the long haul.
If the Vegas cab authority just mandated a fixed price trip from LAS to the hotels, this would all go away. Because that's what Uber is doing and claiming victory over the cabbies.
(Personally, I take the SuperShuttle for $7. I don't need to get to the hotel 20 minutes quicker).
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:08 AM on December 3, 2014
And is everyone arriving in Vegas such a pussy that they can't yell at their cabbie or refuse to tip?
No, the problem is that tons of people who go to Vegas have no idea about this and get fleeced by unscrupulous cabbies, especially if they've never been before. The people who know enough to know that they should be yelling or not tipping aren't the victims here.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
No, the problem is that tons of people who go to Vegas have no idea about this and get fleeced by unscrupulous cabbies, especially if they've never been before. The people who know enough to know that they should be yelling or not tipping aren't the victims here.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
They're called gypsy cabs, negotiate the price before you get in and don't tip them!
Or maybe we could use a term that doesn't denigrate an ethnicity.
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
Or maybe we could use a term that doesn't denigrate an ethnicity.
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
the meter read something like $34, about what I was expecting. We pull up, and the cabbie says, "$45.00."
There's a $7.50 surcharge for all taxi rides which pick up at Logan, and an initial $2.60 for the first 1/7th mile. Depending on how those display on the meter, you may have stiffed him of totally legit charges.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
There's a $7.50 surcharge for all taxi rides which pick up at Logan, and an initial $2.60 for the first 1/7th mile. Depending on how those display on the meter, you may have stiffed him of totally legit charges.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
Does this dude bro fucking work for uber?
Blake Ross does not work for Uber. I've met the man; he is not a dude bro. He cares, I suspect, because he travels a lot for work. A ton of tech conferences happen in Las Vegas, however unfortunate that may be. And Mr. Ross is the kind of guy who gets invited to speak at a lot of tech conferences. And yes, many people are scared of the crazy, aggressive taxis and don't want to get into a physical altercation over a fare. Some people are just introverts. I've seen it come to blows in Vegas.
Both Mr. Ross and I are of the opinion that technology can make the world a better place for people and this is a great example. Dealing with corruption is difficult, and there is a long, grand tradition of calling attention to problems through irony and sarcasm. So, let's get back to discussing the problem and the possible solutions.
posted by jeffamaphone at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Blake Ross does not work for Uber. I've met the man; he is not a dude bro. He cares, I suspect, because he travels a lot for work. A ton of tech conferences happen in Las Vegas, however unfortunate that may be. And Mr. Ross is the kind of guy who gets invited to speak at a lot of tech conferences. And yes, many people are scared of the crazy, aggressive taxis and don't want to get into a physical altercation over a fare. Some people are just introverts. I've seen it come to blows in Vegas.
Both Mr. Ross and I are of the opinion that technology can make the world a better place for people and this is a great example. Dealing with corruption is difficult, and there is a long, grand tradition of calling attention to problems through irony and sarcasm. So, let's get back to discussing the problem and the possible solutions.
posted by jeffamaphone at 10:11 AM on December 3, 2014 [4 favorites]
Depending on how those display on the meter, you may have stiffed him of totally legit charges.
Then It should say so on the fare meter. That's like buying groceries, the screen says $83.50, and the checker is like, "No, it's totally $97.00. Trust me." Bullshit.
posted by xedrik at 10:22 AM on December 3, 2014 [18 favorites]
Then It should say so on the fare meter. That's like buying groceries, the screen says $83.50, and the checker is like, "No, it's totally $97.00. Trust me." Bullshit.
posted by xedrik at 10:22 AM on December 3, 2014 [18 favorites]
I wish Uber weren't such fucking dicks lately. I'd use them more.
I don't think the Taxi companies get it yet. Uber lets me see how close drivers are, let's me see how far the driver is away and will give me an estimated fare all through an easy to use app. It shows me directions with the quickest route so the cabbie can't screw me.
How the fuck have Taxi companies ended up with "well they're kicking our ass up and down with customer service so we'll just try to fight with our weight at City Hall" rather than "well we better duplicate this shit tout de suite"?
posted by Talez at 10:26 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
I don't think the Taxi companies get it yet. Uber lets me see how close drivers are, let's me see how far the driver is away and will give me an estimated fare all through an easy to use app. It shows me directions with the quickest route so the cabbie can't screw me.
How the fuck have Taxi companies ended up with "well they're kicking our ass up and down with customer service so we'll just try to fight with our weight at City Hall" rather than "well we better duplicate this shit tout de suite"?
posted by Talez at 10:26 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
How the fuck have Taxi companies ended up with "well they're kicking our ass up and down with customer service so we'll just try to fight with our weight at City Hall" rather than "well we better duplicate this shit tout de suite"?
have you SEEN how corruption works? Serious, no snark intended.
posted by lonefrontranger at 10:28 AM on December 3, 2014
have you SEEN how corruption works? Serious, no snark intended.
posted by lonefrontranger at 10:28 AM on December 3, 2014
I know how corruption works but for instance in California, Uber went above City Hall and went straight for the state officials. I still can't find a cab in LA which will has an app which will do anything that Uber does.
posted by Talez at 10:32 AM on December 3, 2014
posted by Talez at 10:32 AM on December 3, 2014
> How the fuck have Taxi companies ended up with "well they're kicking our ass up and down with customer service so we'll just try to fight with our weight at City Hall" rather than "well we better duplicate this shit tout de suite"?
To “duplicate this shit” would require them to become experts in technology that is completely foreign to them, and quickly. They could hire technology people, but then they’d have to convince people that working for the taxi industry (which doesn’t know anything about technology) is more attractive than working for someone who knows what this stuff is already.
Whereas it’s easy for them to just continue owning the regulators that are supposed to keep them in check. Because they’ve been doing that since long before Uber showed up.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:32 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
To “duplicate this shit” would require them to become experts in technology that is completely foreign to them, and quickly. They could hire technology people, but then they’d have to convince people that working for the taxi industry (which doesn’t know anything about technology) is more attractive than working for someone who knows what this stuff is already.
Whereas it’s easy for them to just continue owning the regulators that are supposed to keep them in check. Because they’ve been doing that since long before Uber showed up.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:32 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Uber lets me see how close drivers are, let's me see how far the driver is away and will give me an estimated fare all through an easy to use app. It shows me directions with the quickest route so the cabbie can't screw me
Seriously. I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to ride in a local taxi, if I could find it on an app that allows me to pay remotely instead of having to worry about weather he'll take a card, how much cash do I have, etc etc etc.
Why can't the taxi companies develop an app like, say, Etsy, that lets them all compete against each other and make it easier for the rider to use? Why do I need to call all the taxi companies independently to see if I can get a ride to the airport? (Answer: trick question--no taxi companies will come to my neighborhood to pick me up.)
posted by suelac at 10:32 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Seriously. I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to ride in a local taxi, if I could find it on an app that allows me to pay remotely instead of having to worry about weather he'll take a card, how much cash do I have, etc etc etc.
Why can't the taxi companies develop an app like, say, Etsy, that lets them all compete against each other and make it easier for the rider to use? Why do I need to call all the taxi companies independently to see if I can get a ride to the airport? (Answer: trick question--no taxi companies will come to my neighborhood to pick me up.)
posted by suelac at 10:32 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Taking a taxi and getting fleeced for way more than a normal fare, or getting taken the long way around, is a scourge on traveling and arriving in new cities. I'm not surprised that Vegas has been trying to fix the problem, but it's disheartening that they seem to be sort of flailing when trying to address it. I was surprised at the sarcasm of the piece too, but it's an important issue to many of us, particularly now that the sleeziness that's come out about Uber makes the value proposition of using them a bit different that it was a year ago.
There has been a LOT of kvetching about Uber where I live, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that my local taxi company (Red Top in Arlington, VA) has stepped up to the plate to compete on service. I used to hate reserving a cab from them, because they were so unreliable. But on a recent trip I was able to test their new app and service. My cab arrived as scheduled at 4am, and I was able to track him for the 5 minutes before so I knew he was on the way. The driver took the most direct/fastest route, and I was able to pay and tip using the credit card I had entered in the app. It was the best taxi experience I've had in years. I hope more companies go this route.
posted by gemmy at 10:50 AM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
There has been a LOT of kvetching about Uber where I live, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that my local taxi company (Red Top in Arlington, VA) has stepped up to the plate to compete on service. I used to hate reserving a cab from them, because they were so unreliable. But on a recent trip I was able to test their new app and service. My cab arrived as scheduled at 4am, and I was able to track him for the 5 minutes before so I knew he was on the way. The driver took the most direct/fastest route, and I was able to pay and tip using the credit card I had entered in the app. It was the best taxi experience I've had in years. I hope more companies go this route.
posted by gemmy at 10:50 AM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
Most cities have surcharges for airport travel via taxi, and most cities have basic fares already agreed upon when you travel from the Airport to the center city. The person working the taxi line should tell you the fare before you get in. The flat fee of $45 is standard from Logan Airport. The meter doesn't really apply in that case. The cab driver should have explained that to you and you also should've been told before you got in the cab if you got it in the cab line.
posted by cell divide at 10:52 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by cell divide at 10:52 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Uber & Lyft provide a layer of accountability, and traceability on the driver, which undercuts that problem.
Except that they actually don't - if you wind up with a problem with your driver, they're happy to remind you that they aren't a taxi company, but an online service that connects passengers to independent cabs, and as such, they are not responsible for what happened. When a woman was driven 20 miles out of the way to an abandoned lot by an Uber driver, the company's response initially was that the driver took an inefficient route.
Also, Ross ignores the flip side of the rating system - with the ridiculously high approval rating averages Uber demands of their drivers, it puts them at the mercy of bad customers. Not to mention that the people most at risk for being scammed are the ones least likely to notice that they are.
And, of course, Uber's more than willing to coach drivers to break the laws - when those laws don't suit them.
I think that this analysis by Tom Slee breaks down the issues with Uber as a whole. It's worth a read.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:55 AM on December 3, 2014 [8 favorites]
Except that they actually don't - if you wind up with a problem with your driver, they're happy to remind you that they aren't a taxi company, but an online service that connects passengers to independent cabs, and as such, they are not responsible for what happened. When a woman was driven 20 miles out of the way to an abandoned lot by an Uber driver, the company's response initially was that the driver took an inefficient route.
Also, Ross ignores the flip side of the rating system - with the ridiculously high approval rating averages Uber demands of their drivers, it puts them at the mercy of bad customers. Not to mention that the people most at risk for being scammed are the ones least likely to notice that they are.
And, of course, Uber's more than willing to coach drivers to break the laws - when those laws don't suit them.
I think that this analysis by Tom Slee breaks down the issues with Uber as a whole. It's worth a read.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:55 AM on December 3, 2014 [8 favorites]
Uber has played the regulatory system very well. UberX -- private cars without livery or taxi licenses -- is (was) simply illegal in many places, and Uber just bulled in until they got their way. Except in NYC where the government prevailed and forced them to make UberX a cheaper livery service.
posted by MattD at 11:19 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 11:19 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
When in a casino pretend you are in a dark alleyway in NYC. Govern yourself accordingly.
This is absurd. Tourists getting mugged on the casino floor would be extremely bad for business. Disneyland is probably the only place on the planet that spends more effort on making sure people feel safe from that kind of thing.
posted by sideshow at 11:49 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is absurd. Tourists getting mugged on the casino floor would be extremely bad for business. Disneyland is probably the only place on the planet that spends more effort on making sure people feel safe from that kind of thing.
posted by sideshow at 11:49 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
The flat fee of $45 is standard from Logan Airport. The meter doesn't really apply in that case. The cab driver should have explained that to you and you also should've been told before you got in the cab if you got it in the cab line.
In all the times I have ever taken a cab from Logan that has never happened. You just get in, tell them where you want to go, and they take you there. There's usually no discussion of fare at all until you need to pay at the end.
posted by delicious-luncheon at 11:52 AM on December 3, 2014
In all the times I have ever taken a cab from Logan that has never happened. You just get in, tell them where you want to go, and they take you there. There's usually no discussion of fare at all until you need to pay at the end.
posted by delicious-luncheon at 11:52 AM on December 3, 2014
> In all the times I have ever taken a cab from Logan that has never happened. You just get in, tell them where you want to go, and they take you there. There's usually no discussion of fare at all until you need to pay at the end.
Agreed. Which is why there’s always a sign on the door, or a decal on the divider inside the cab, that explains to passengers what the fare will be, and if there’s a flat rate from the airport that’s where they’ll find that information. I’m more surprised the driver said “it’s just $45” instead of pointing to that sign.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:59 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Agreed. Which is why there’s always a sign on the door, or a decal on the divider inside the cab, that explains to passengers what the fare will be, and if there’s a flat rate from the airport that’s where they’ll find that information. I’m more surprised the driver said “it’s just $45” instead of pointing to that sign.
posted by savetheclocktower at 11:59 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
To “duplicate this shit” would require them to become experts in technology that is completely foreign to them, and quickly.
I'm not hand-waving this away, but let's not pretend that a group of cabbies would have to get together and have a hack-a-thon to make their own shit. TaxiMagic (or whatever they're called now) is an independent operation out there trying to provide this sort of functionality. Cabbies also have the incumbent advantage of being already in business and servicing need. The fact that Uber can come in and start kicking ass despite charging more speaks about the level of satisfaction cab customers have to begin with.
And as far as experts in technology? The real first hurdle would for them to not be immediately hostile to it in any way. DC cabs resisted meters for years and complained once they were implemented that their revenue had fallen. Which could only possibly mean they were cheating people via the zone system, given the way the fare structure got planned. They were only dragged kicking and screaming into having credit card acceptance recently and there's still common stories about them pretending readers are broken or giving fares hassles.
My favorite story was from an NPR reporter I know. Cabbie: "Aw man, if you use that it takes a week to get my money." Him, to himself "You think most of your fares get paid daily?"
Uber's revealing themselves to be shitbirds but the taxi companies and drivers aren't being rope-a-doped. They have bought and paid for every bit of the hostility people feel towards them and have avoided every possible innovation or oversight.
posted by phearlez at 12:06 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm not hand-waving this away, but let's not pretend that a group of cabbies would have to get together and have a hack-a-thon to make their own shit. TaxiMagic (or whatever they're called now) is an independent operation out there trying to provide this sort of functionality. Cabbies also have the incumbent advantage of being already in business and servicing need. The fact that Uber can come in and start kicking ass despite charging more speaks about the level of satisfaction cab customers have to begin with.
And as far as experts in technology? The real first hurdle would for them to not be immediately hostile to it in any way. DC cabs resisted meters for years and complained once they were implemented that their revenue had fallen. Which could only possibly mean they were cheating people via the zone system, given the way the fare structure got planned. They were only dragged kicking and screaming into having credit card acceptance recently and there's still common stories about them pretending readers are broken or giving fares hassles.
My favorite story was from an NPR reporter I know. Cabbie: "Aw man, if you use that it takes a week to get my money." Him, to himself "You think most of your fares get paid daily?"
Uber's revealing themselves to be shitbirds but the taxi companies and drivers aren't being rope-a-doped. They have bought and paid for every bit of the hostility people feel towards them and have avoided every possible innovation or oversight.
posted by phearlez at 12:06 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
> I'm not hand-waving this away, but let's not pretend that a group of cabbies would have to get together and have a hack-a-thon to make their own shit. TaxiMagic (or whatever they're called now) is an independent operation out there trying to provide this sort of functionality.
By “become experts in technology” I only meant that they’d have to have some amount of literacy with new technology, not that they’d be writing the code themselves. Taxi Magic (now Curb) predates Uber, but my guess is that they spent years languishing because they were unable to convince cab companies that their service was valuable until Uber came along.
> And as far as experts in technology? The real first hurdle would for them to not be immediately hostile to it in any way.
I am in favor of tight regulation of cabs, but we should understand that this hostility is borne out of that very regulation. “People will need cabs no matter what,” they think, “so why should we have to innovate?” That’s the sort of thing that would happen in any industry where there are government-sanctioned barriers to competition. I think that, in general, governments should use that leverage to demand more out of taxis, understanding that they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming toward new customer-friendly technology.
I want to be clear: I am not trying to defend cab companies. Of course they're short-sighted and risk-averse. But that behavior comes from the fact that their rates are set by law and they have certain obligations that black cars do not. This is no more “rational” of a market than, say, the market that exists when Texas lets Jiffy Lube perform vehicle inspections at a price that is mandated by the state. In this environment, innovation can only happen when it is mandated by the regulatory body.
I don’t want Uber and Lyft to make cabs obsolete. I want them to make politicians realize what shitty work their taxi commissions have been doing for all these years.
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:31 PM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
By “become experts in technology” I only meant that they’d have to have some amount of literacy with new technology, not that they’d be writing the code themselves. Taxi Magic (now Curb) predates Uber, but my guess is that they spent years languishing because they were unable to convince cab companies that their service was valuable until Uber came along.
> And as far as experts in technology? The real first hurdle would for them to not be immediately hostile to it in any way.
I am in favor of tight regulation of cabs, but we should understand that this hostility is borne out of that very regulation. “People will need cabs no matter what,” they think, “so why should we have to innovate?” That’s the sort of thing that would happen in any industry where there are government-sanctioned barriers to competition. I think that, in general, governments should use that leverage to demand more out of taxis, understanding that they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming toward new customer-friendly technology.
I want to be clear: I am not trying to defend cab companies. Of course they're short-sighted and risk-averse. But that behavior comes from the fact that their rates are set by law and they have certain obligations that black cars do not. This is no more “rational” of a market than, say, the market that exists when Texas lets Jiffy Lube perform vehicle inspections at a price that is mandated by the state. In this environment, innovation can only happen when it is mandated by the regulatory body.
I don’t want Uber and Lyft to make cabs obsolete. I want them to make politicians realize what shitty work their taxi commissions have been doing for all these years.
posted by savetheclocktower at 12:31 PM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
I think that, in general, governments should use that leverage to demand more out of taxis, understanding that they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming toward new customer-friendly technology.
And yet, as Slee points out, the governments are doing that already - for example, Toronto (where Uber's last tantrum occured) has mandated that all taxicabs under the new licensing system have to be wheelchair accessible. (Meanwhile, Uber has had some massive issues with access for disabled passengers, including one infamous case where a driver locked a service dog in the trunk, then refused to stop the fare despite the protests of the passenger.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:53 PM on December 3, 2014
And yet, as Slee points out, the governments are doing that already - for example, Toronto (where Uber's last tantrum occured) has mandated that all taxicabs under the new licensing system have to be wheelchair accessible. (Meanwhile, Uber has had some massive issues with access for disabled passengers, including one infamous case where a driver locked a service dog in the trunk, then refused to stop the fare despite the protests of the passenger.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:53 PM on December 3, 2014
> And yet, as Slee points out, the governments are doing that already
The extent to which governments are doing that already varies wildly between states and municipalities. Most taxi commissions have enough teeth to have negotiated a flat rate to/from the airport, but not Nevada’s, despite the fact that doing so would save Vegas passengers a lot more money than passengers in Boston.
In fact, these fortnightly Uber-versus-cab MeFi debates are a good illustration of how one’s experience with the cab industry is highly dependent on where one lives.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that a city can mandate that all cabs be wheelchair accessible, but that’s the very least we should expect from them.
posted by savetheclocktower at 1:16 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
The extent to which governments are doing that already varies wildly between states and municipalities. Most taxi commissions have enough teeth to have negotiated a flat rate to/from the airport, but not Nevada’s, despite the fact that doing so would save Vegas passengers a lot more money than passengers in Boston.
In fact, these fortnightly Uber-versus-cab MeFi debates are a good illustration of how one’s experience with the cab industry is highly dependent on where one lives.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that a city can mandate that all cabs be wheelchair accessible, but that’s the very least we should expect from them.
posted by savetheclocktower at 1:16 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
The cops could have followed the driver to the hotel, and arrested them and towed their taxi, not involving the tourist at all. But they didn't. Funny, that.
posted by effugas at 1:38 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by effugas at 1:38 PM on December 3, 2014
Seriously. I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to ride in a local taxi, if I could find it on an app that allows me to pay remotely instead of having to worry about weather he'll take a card, how much cash do I have, etc etc etc.
suelac, if your city has Flywheel, I recommend it -- it's used by various local cab companies, so you almost always get a real taxi. All the same benefits as Uber and Lyft -- online app, mobile calling, pay online -- but no surge pricing.
posted by vickyverky at 1:41 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
suelac, if your city has Flywheel, I recommend it -- it's used by various local cab companies, so you almost always get a real taxi. All the same benefits as Uber and Lyft -- online app, mobile calling, pay online -- but no surge pricing.
posted by vickyverky at 1:41 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
I still can't find a cab in LA which will has an app which will do anything that Uber does.
I tried Curb / Taxi Magic last week to get from Brentwood to Culver City. It was mostly the same experience. Differences:
* It was actually better about letting me set my location.
* Dispatch time (and estimates about arrival time) was closer to my poorer Uber experiences than my best.
* It expected me to specify a tip level... but I didn't want to do this until the ride was over, and closed the app to use other things on my phone while riding, and when I re-opened it, it didn't give me an option. So I tipped cash, and then found the app had also defaulted to 20%. It was a decent ride and I'm not unhappy about a little extra in a cabbie's pocket, but this is a UX problem.
* More expensive than UberX (about the same as Uber black).
Overall, certainly comparable.
I also tried this thing called the Bus. It's like a public Groupon'd Uber that runs on fixed routes, so it's incredibly inexpensive -- I got home from work in less than 20 minutes, and the next day from my home to a doctor's appointment in 20 minutes as well. Super disruptive.
(Seriously, I was surprised by how good the bus system was -- on time, faster than Google's trip planner told me it would be, and certainly cheaper than Uber)
posted by weston at 1:49 PM on December 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
I tried Curb / Taxi Magic last week to get from Brentwood to Culver City. It was mostly the same experience. Differences:
* It was actually better about letting me set my location.
* Dispatch time (and estimates about arrival time) was closer to my poorer Uber experiences than my best.
* It expected me to specify a tip level... but I didn't want to do this until the ride was over, and closed the app to use other things on my phone while riding, and when I re-opened it, it didn't give me an option. So I tipped cash, and then found the app had also defaulted to 20%. It was a decent ride and I'm not unhappy about a little extra in a cabbie's pocket, but this is a UX problem.
* More expensive than UberX (about the same as Uber black).
Overall, certainly comparable.
I also tried this thing called the Bus. It's like a public Groupon'd Uber that runs on fixed routes, so it's incredibly inexpensive -- I got home from work in less than 20 minutes, and the next day from my home to a doctor's appointment in 20 minutes as well. Super disruptive.
(Seriously, I was surprised by how good the bus system was -- on time, faster than Google's trip planner told me it would be, and certainly cheaper than Uber)
posted by weston at 1:49 PM on December 3, 2014 [6 favorites]
In fact, these fortnightly Uber-versus-cab MeFi debates are a good illustration of how one’s experience with the cab industry is highly dependent on where one lives.
Which is part of the issue (and again, something that Slee points out in his analysis) - Uber tries to portray itself as the underdog against Big Taxi, but a) there is no Big Taxi, as the industry has been traditionally locally focused and regulated; and b) Uber is being backed by some pretty big global players.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:51 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Which is part of the issue (and again, something that Slee points out in his analysis) - Uber tries to portray itself as the underdog against Big Taxi, but a) there is no Big Taxi, as the industry has been traditionally locally focused and regulated; and b) Uber is being backed by some pretty big global players.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:51 PM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is absurd. Tourists getting mugged on the casino floor would be extremely bad for business.
This may be true. But I've had stuff stolen from me twice in Vegas. Both by professionals working the strip. In one case it was on the Casino floor, with several cameras on us (and the theft). When my girlfriend started crying (her car keys were in that backpack) she was quickly scuttled off the floor by security. Because her crying over the theft upset the customers. "We'll investigate it" They claimed. When pressed on the matter they said they wouldn't be reviewing their footage, or actually doing anything about it. If we wanted footage, we could have the local police department subpoena it from them (they wouldn't give it voluntarily).
Police there will try to talk you out of reporting crime (presumably to keep stats low), casinos have relations with the police (they are ex-cops), and the local prosecutors have no incentive to prosecute out-of-towners (for things like assault).
Seriously sketchy city.
posted by el io at 1:59 PM on December 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
This may be true. But I've had stuff stolen from me twice in Vegas. Both by professionals working the strip. In one case it was on the Casino floor, with several cameras on us (and the theft). When my girlfriend started crying (her car keys were in that backpack) she was quickly scuttled off the floor by security. Because her crying over the theft upset the customers. "We'll investigate it" They claimed. When pressed on the matter they said they wouldn't be reviewing their footage, or actually doing anything about it. If we wanted footage, we could have the local police department subpoena it from them (they wouldn't give it voluntarily).
Police there will try to talk you out of reporting crime (presumably to keep stats low), casinos have relations with the police (they are ex-cops), and the local prosecutors have no incentive to prosecute out-of-towners (for things like assault).
Seriously sketchy city.
posted by el io at 1:59 PM on December 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
ReeMonster: "Black Market taxi"??? What is this, the Thieves Market in Bombay?? They're called gypsy cabs, negotiate the price before you get in and don't tip them!Cute. You call them gypsy cabs. Elsewhere, other things. They are absolutely illegal in many cities, which makes my statement accurate and understandable.
Etrigan: Or maybe we could use a term that doesn't denigrate an ethnicity.My apologies; it never occurred to me that term might be racist - but I suppose any negative phrase with "black" in it can be taken that way.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:03 PM on December 3, 2014
Uh, IAmBroom, the denigrating phrase was "gypsy cab"...
posted by Dynex at 2:19 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by Dynex at 2:19 PM on December 3, 2014
How is the term "gypsy cab" racist? First of all, the term "gypsy" doesn't apply to any "race" or any one people. You probably are associating it with the Romani people but a lot of other groups are called "gypsies". The main factor between the groups is their itinerant lifestyle. They have no home base and just travel from place to place. That's why gypsy cabs are called gypsy cabs: they have no center of operations and move around frequently (being cabs.) It's not a racial slur but, instead, a description of their operation.
posted by I-baLL at 2:27 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by I-baLL at 2:27 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Dynex, fair point, but now that I've thought about it - it does perpetuate the "white good/black bad" symbolism, unnecessarily.
posted by IAmBroom at 2:36 PM on December 3, 2014 [10 favorites]
I-baLL: First of all, the term "gypsy" doesn't apply to any "race" or any one people.The racial group of the Romani, to whom the term "gypsy" is often applied as a slur, disagree. And since someone who is the subject of such racial attacks disagrees with you, "all your white horses, and all your white men, can't make it unracist again."
posted by IAmBroom at 2:36 PM on December 3, 2014 [10 favorites]
suelac, if your city has Flywheel, I recommend it -- it's used by various local cab companies, so you almost always get a real taxi
Oh, cool! Thank you! I shall check it out.
posted by suelac at 2:40 PM on December 3, 2014
Oh, cool! Thank you! I shall check it out.
posted by suelac at 2:40 PM on December 3, 2014
Depending on how those display on the meter, you may have stiffed him of totally legit charges.
Then It should say so on the fare meter. That's like buying groceries, the screen says $83.50, and the checker is like, "No, it's totally $97.00. Trust me." Bullshit.
In Toronto at least all fares must be prominently displayed (usually as a thing on the back of the front seat headrests). This includes extra charges (e.g. for loading/unloading baggage, which no cab driver I have ever had bags with has ever charged for).
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:13 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Then It should say so on the fare meter. That's like buying groceries, the screen says $83.50, and the checker is like, "No, it's totally $97.00. Trust me." Bullshit.
In Toronto at least all fares must be prominently displayed (usually as a thing on the back of the front seat headrests). This includes extra charges (e.g. for loading/unloading baggage, which no cab driver I have ever had bags with has ever charged for).
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:13 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Sometimes I wonder if maybe public transportation orgs should be running their own rideshare markets.
A much smaller scale version of this already happens with paratransit and ridepool organization, so there's some basic institutional knowledge in place, and such public organizations would probably be in a good position to help bring would-be participants into the right regulatory framework. Plus, just having that close a hold on the data would help make other transport routing decisions better.
Treating it as part of infrastructure rather than a private profit center might make more sense.
posted by weston at 3:32 PM on December 3, 2014
A much smaller scale version of this already happens with paratransit and ridepool organization, so there's some basic institutional knowledge in place, and such public organizations would probably be in a good position to help bring would-be participants into the right regulatory framework. Plus, just having that close a hold on the data would help make other transport routing decisions better.
Treating it as part of infrastructure rather than a private profit center might make more sense.
posted by weston at 3:32 PM on December 3, 2014
Tourists getting mugged on the casino floor would be extremely bad for business.
Seconding el io on this. Tourists getting mugged on the casino floor happens all the time and no, they will not help you with it. It's very easy for a mugger to escape into a throng of people when they know video evidence will not be forthcoming. Parking garages at off hours are even worse. It's quite common for criminals to track people who cash out for a lot of money and ambush them on the way to a hotel room or especially car.
posted by localroger at 4:01 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Seconding el io on this. Tourists getting mugged on the casino floor happens all the time and no, they will not help you with it. It's very easy for a mugger to escape into a throng of people when they know video evidence will not be forthcoming. Parking garages at off hours are even worse. It's quite common for criminals to track people who cash out for a lot of money and ambush them on the way to a hotel room or especially car.
posted by localroger at 4:01 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
sideshow: This is absurd. Tourists getting mugged on the casino floor would be extremely bad for business.
Having been to Vegas a few times, I got exactly the message that el io got: if you make any trouble at all, life will get unpleasant really fast. Vegas is a company town that looks out for the company first.
posted by dr_dank at 4:31 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Having been to Vegas a few times, I got exactly the message that el io got: if you make any trouble at all, life will get unpleasant really fast. Vegas is a company town that looks out for the company first.
posted by dr_dank at 4:31 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Security researcher GironSec has pulled Uber's Android app apart and discovered that it's sending a huge amount of personal data back to base – including your call logs, what apps you've got installed, whether your phone is vulnerable to certain malware, whether your phone is rooted, and your SMS and MMS logs, which it explicitly doesn't have permission to do. It's the latest in a series of big-time missteps for a company whose core business model is, frankly, illegal in most of its markets as well.posted by Pope Guilty at 4:36 PM on December 3, 2014 [7 favorites]
...
But there doesn't seem to be a lot of grey area in these latest revelations that Uber is collecting a stack of personal data from users who have its Android app installed, including SMS data that its permissions list doesn't allow.
Security researcher GironSec decompiled the code of the Uber Android app and found it to be collecting and sending the following information back to Uber:
- Accounts log (Email)
- App Activity (Name, PackageName, Process Number of activity, Processed id)
- App Data Usage (Cache size, code size, data size, name, package name)
- App Install (installed at, name, package name, unknown sources enabled, version code, version name)
- Battery (health, level, plugged, present, scale, status, technology, temperature, voltage)
- Device Info (board, brand, build version, cell number, device, device type, display, fingerprint, ip, mac address, manufacturer, model, os platform, product, sdk code, total disk space, unknown sources enabled)
- GPS (accuracy, altitude, latitude, longitude, provider, speed)
- MMS (from number, mms at, mmss type, service number, to number)
- NetData (bytes received, bytes sent, connection type, interface type)
- PhoneCall (call duration, called at, from number, phone call type, to number)
- SMS (from number, service number, sms at, sms type, to number)
- TelephonyInfo (cell tower id, cell tower latitude, cell tower longitude, imei, iso country code, local area code, meid, mobile country code, mobile network code, network name, network type, phone type, sim serial number, sim state, subscriber id)
- WifiConnection (bssid, ip, linkspeed, macaddr, networkid, rssi, ssid)
- WifiNeighbors (bssid, capabilities, frequency, level, ssid)
- Root Check (root staus code, root status reason code, root version, sig file version)
- Malware Info (algorithm confidence, app list, found malware, malware sdk version, package list, reason code, service list, sigfile version)
UberX -- private cars without livery or taxi licenses -- is (was) simply illegal in many places
And the taxi laws are simply ridiculous in many places. It's a shame that Uber is run by assholes, and I've switched to Lyft since learning that, but I'm really glad that Uber is ignoring bullshit taxi laws and forcing some much-needed change into ancient and absurdly unproductive taxi cartels all over the country.
posted by Mars Saxman at 4:51 PM on December 3, 2014
And the taxi laws are simply ridiculous in many places. It's a shame that Uber is run by assholes, and I've switched to Lyft since learning that, but I'm really glad that Uber is ignoring bullshit taxi laws and forcing some much-needed change into ancient and absurdly unproductive taxi cartels all over the country.
posted by Mars Saxman at 4:51 PM on December 3, 2014
Depending on how those display on the meter, you may have stiffed him of totally legit charges.
Then It should say so on the fare meter.
I am highly skeptical of any assertion that, absent something of short duration like a snow emergency surcharge here in the DC area, that there's a fee that doesn't come up on the meter. The first mile fractional mile charge most certainly is, and those meters are very deliberately built with buttons to add on various surcharges (additional passengers, airport fees, bag handling, etc) and the idea that there's some ongoing regular fee that wouldn't at least be addable with a button-press? No, I just do not buy it at all.
And I sure as hell don't buy that someone could stiff a driver for that fee and they wouldn't be raising holy hell and maybe calling a cop. That cabbie would have followed xedric into the hotel lobby while discussing the matter at the top of his lungs.
posted by phearlez at 5:01 PM on December 3, 2014
Then It should say so on the fare meter.
I am highly skeptical of any assertion that, absent something of short duration like a snow emergency surcharge here in the DC area, that there's a fee that doesn't come up on the meter. The first mile fractional mile charge most certainly is, and those meters are very deliberately built with buttons to add on various surcharges (additional passengers, airport fees, bag handling, etc) and the idea that there's some ongoing regular fee that wouldn't at least be addable with a button-press? No, I just do not buy it at all.
And I sure as hell don't buy that someone could stiff a driver for that fee and they wouldn't be raising holy hell and maybe calling a cop. That cabbie would have followed xedric into the hotel lobby while discussing the matter at the top of his lungs.
posted by phearlez at 5:01 PM on December 3, 2014
Meters include extras in every cab I've seen. They split it out so you know it's there. If it's a fixed rate it's fixed the entire ride.
And as phearlez (*snerk*, what a great name) said, if the guy was actually stiffed he'd have reacted very differently.
posted by effugas at 5:11 PM on December 3, 2014
And as phearlez (*snerk*, what a great name) said, if the guy was actually stiffed he'd have reacted very differently.
posted by effugas at 5:11 PM on December 3, 2014
And as phearlez (*snerk*, what a great name)
Haizy was already taken.
posted by phearlez at 5:59 PM on December 3, 2014
Haizy was already taken.
posted by phearlez at 5:59 PM on December 3, 2014
The flat fee of $45 is standard from Logan Airport. The meter doesn't really apply in that case. The cab driver should have explained that to you and you also should've been told before you got in the cab if you got it in the cab line.
It doesn't show up on the Logan transportation options page nor does BPD make any mention of it.
I've never taken a cab in Boston, so there could be something else I'm missing.
I will say though, that I always look at the transportation page of any new airport I fly into, specifically so I can get an idea of what a ride should cost.
McCarran, for example, links you to approximate fare information to every big strip hotel in Vegas. They even have a handy flyer.
posted by madajb at 1:50 AM on December 4, 2014
It doesn't show up on the Logan transportation options page nor does BPD make any mention of it.
I've never taken a cab in Boston, so there could be something else I'm missing.
I will say though, that I always look at the transportation page of any new airport I fly into, specifically so I can get an idea of what a ride should cost.
McCarran, for example, links you to approximate fare information to every big strip hotel in Vegas. They even have a handy flyer.
posted by madajb at 1:50 AM on December 4, 2014
phearlez: And I sure as hell don't buy that someone could stiff a driver for that fee and they wouldn't be raising holy hell and maybe calling a cop. That cabbie would have followed xedric into the hotel lobby while discussing the matter at the top of his lungs.Absolutist claim about the behavior of everyone in a certain group ... I wish there were a word describing this sort of thing.... besides wrong.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:28 AM on December 4, 2014
I wish Uber weren't such fucking dicks lately. I'd use them more.
Uber's revealing themselves to be shitbirds
It's a shame that Uber is run by assholes
Ok, that's three separate very hostile comments about those in charge of Uber. What's the issue? Granted, other than using the service on about a dozen occasions (each of which was a very pleasant experience), I don't really follow the company or the drama of the Uber vs. taxi wars, so I'm not in the know about anything on the backend of the company. So I'd love to know what occurred that is drawing scorn. Sounds like they kicked some puppies or something.
posted by dios at 9:49 AM on December 4, 2014
Uber's revealing themselves to be shitbirds
It's a shame that Uber is run by assholes
Ok, that's three separate very hostile comments about those in charge of Uber. What's the issue? Granted, other than using the service on about a dozen occasions (each of which was a very pleasant experience), I don't really follow the company or the drama of the Uber vs. taxi wars, so I'm not in the know about anything on the backend of the company. So I'd love to know what occurred that is drawing scorn. Sounds like they kicked some puppies or something.
posted by dios at 9:49 AM on December 4, 2014
Check out the first Related Post at the bottom of this page.
posted by Etrigan at 9:51 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by Etrigan at 9:51 AM on December 4, 2014
There was also a recent Ask Metafilter thread looking for criticism of Uber that might serve as a roundup.
posted by weston at 10:18 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by weston at 10:18 AM on December 4, 2014
Absolutist claim about the behavior of everyone in a certain group
Yes, I have slandered the noble cabbie by saying I think they're self-interested capitalists who would be angry to have their salaries stolen from. The horror.
posted by phearlez at 12:11 PM on December 4, 2014
Yes, I have slandered the noble cabbie by saying I think they're self-interested capitalists who would be angry to have their salaries stolen from. The horror.
posted by phearlez at 12:11 PM on December 4, 2014
What's the issue?
I'd recommend reading the piece by Slee that I posted earlier, as it's a good summation of the problems with Uber. I would say the big takeaways are:
1. Uber isn't really about a technological advance, but is instead about deregulation.
2. They try to use bad regulations that exist as an argument for no regulations (for them, at least).
3. They shift liability and responsibilities from themselves to both the customers and drivers.
4. Their corporate culture is very questionable, for a number of reasons. Good examples include their cavalier attitude on data and the underhanded way they have been trying to undermine Lyft.
5. They're screwing drivers over royally, in a number of ways - from lowering fare rates to insane rating requirements (they require drivers to maintain a 4.7 out of 5 rating or better, or they can be fired), to subprime auto loans. Even worse, they try to say that drivers are "partners" in a relationship that much more resembles employer - employee.
6. Customers tend to be better treated, but even there they have issues. There's issues of accessibility (you can't use their service without a credit card), the ever-present surge pricing problem, and the problems disabled passengers have had (there was an infamous case where one of their drivers put a service dog in their trunk, then refused to terminate the ride when the passenger protested.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:16 PM on December 4, 2014
I'd recommend reading the piece by Slee that I posted earlier, as it's a good summation of the problems with Uber. I would say the big takeaways are:
1. Uber isn't really about a technological advance, but is instead about deregulation.
2. They try to use bad regulations that exist as an argument for no regulations (for them, at least).
3. They shift liability and responsibilities from themselves to both the customers and drivers.
4. Their corporate culture is very questionable, for a number of reasons. Good examples include their cavalier attitude on data and the underhanded way they have been trying to undermine Lyft.
5. They're screwing drivers over royally, in a number of ways - from lowering fare rates to insane rating requirements (they require drivers to maintain a 4.7 out of 5 rating or better, or they can be fired), to subprime auto loans. Even worse, they try to say that drivers are "partners" in a relationship that much more resembles employer - employee.
6. Customers tend to be better treated, but even there they have issues. There's issues of accessibility (you can't use their service without a credit card), the ever-present surge pricing problem, and the problems disabled passengers have had (there was an infamous case where one of their drivers put a service dog in their trunk, then refused to terminate the ride when the passenger protested.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:16 PM on December 4, 2014
I think there's a lot of area for debate on all of those save #4, or at least shades of gray. I'm kind of inclined to think #4 is enough reason to not want to ever have anything to do with them, but their awfulness isn't an excuse for the awfulness of the paid ride industry outside of them.
I'm not sure exactly what it means to say Uber (or any business) is "about" something. Deregulation may be their primary focus at this point but I'm not sure I'd say that any of the standard cab solutions cropping up are really offering the same functionality, so I think the technology (or at least as far as technology is infrastructure) still matters.
Their sometimes fast and loose argumentation about regulations... I'm not writing them a pass on the Everyone Does It basis, but in so far as we're comparing them to other groups I do consider that. When I look at the quality that the DC Taxi Commission has created and the things they claim they're for (customer protection) I personally find that almost completely in opposition to what it seems to be doing. So Uber portraying the regulations one way just seems to put them on the opposite side of the same shitty coin and merely lying differently. They'll throw the baby out with the bathwater but the existing cab system wants to keep a toxic anti-consumer setup.
The liability shifting is just a problem we have in society all around and it's a common shitty corporate behavior. Walmart's actions that push their employees into the social safety net, arbitration clauses, pension dumping, etc. IP creators have perpetrated a massive fraud on the people by getting Congress to criminalize copyright violations and we as taxpayers fund the Secret Service's massive pursuits of people cutting into Sony's margins. See also the entire banking disaster. Uber doesn't want to pay for shit and that's jerky... just like so many other people. They suck but we suck more for letting them get away with it.
Treating drivers badly is also par for the course for any business with more job candidates than jobs. The state of at-will employment is such that I'm not sure I'm going to put people who are being actually graded on customer service on the top of my concern list. That vulnerability is scary but the rating thing is way better transparency than many employees get. I also think several things Slee points to as bad are potentially very pro-consumer.
Case in point: the requirement for a high driver acceptance rate. In the DC area we have a tremendous problem with cabs refusing to pick up people of color and people in wheelchairs. One friend of mine used Uber extensively when she was getting treated at Sibley because she could not gets cabs to pick her up in a wheelchair. Which seems insane to me, but it's a documented problem. If Uber's push for acceptance rates reduces passenger shopping then it's doing something the taxi commission isn't managing. Or, in my opinion, even trying to address. So I'm unconvinced #6 is anything but a wash or even a net win.
Slee's listed problems aren't wrong but hand-waving away the state of regulated taxis does a disservice to consumers and citizens. Comparisons to deregulation experiments thirty years in the past without acknowledging the ways things are different (Uber's pricing, even their surge maneuver, is transparent in a way that street-flagged cabs can't be) is flawed. There's possible fixes here that don't preserve an old and badly damaged system, and if we're really concerned with dodged costs and mistreated employees we should fix them for everyone - or at least in a more general way.
posted by phearlez at 1:57 PM on December 4, 2014
I'm not sure exactly what it means to say Uber (or any business) is "about" something. Deregulation may be their primary focus at this point but I'm not sure I'd say that any of the standard cab solutions cropping up are really offering the same functionality, so I think the technology (or at least as far as technology is infrastructure) still matters.
Their sometimes fast and loose argumentation about regulations... I'm not writing them a pass on the Everyone Does It basis, but in so far as we're comparing them to other groups I do consider that. When I look at the quality that the DC Taxi Commission has created and the things they claim they're for (customer protection) I personally find that almost completely in opposition to what it seems to be doing. So Uber portraying the regulations one way just seems to put them on the opposite side of the same shitty coin and merely lying differently. They'll throw the baby out with the bathwater but the existing cab system wants to keep a toxic anti-consumer setup.
The liability shifting is just a problem we have in society all around and it's a common shitty corporate behavior. Walmart's actions that push their employees into the social safety net, arbitration clauses, pension dumping, etc. IP creators have perpetrated a massive fraud on the people by getting Congress to criminalize copyright violations and we as taxpayers fund the Secret Service's massive pursuits of people cutting into Sony's margins. See also the entire banking disaster. Uber doesn't want to pay for shit and that's jerky... just like so many other people. They suck but we suck more for letting them get away with it.
Treating drivers badly is also par for the course for any business with more job candidates than jobs. The state of at-will employment is such that I'm not sure I'm going to put people who are being actually graded on customer service on the top of my concern list. That vulnerability is scary but the rating thing is way better transparency than many employees get. I also think several things Slee points to as bad are potentially very pro-consumer.
Case in point: the requirement for a high driver acceptance rate. In the DC area we have a tremendous problem with cabs refusing to pick up people of color and people in wheelchairs. One friend of mine used Uber extensively when she was getting treated at Sibley because she could not gets cabs to pick her up in a wheelchair. Which seems insane to me, but it's a documented problem. If Uber's push for acceptance rates reduces passenger shopping then it's doing something the taxi commission isn't managing. Or, in my opinion, even trying to address. So I'm unconvinced #6 is anything but a wash or even a net win.
Slee's listed problems aren't wrong but hand-waving away the state of regulated taxis does a disservice to consumers and citizens. Comparisons to deregulation experiments thirty years in the past without acknowledging the ways things are different (Uber's pricing, even their surge maneuver, is transparent in a way that street-flagged cabs can't be) is flawed. There's possible fixes here that don't preserve an old and badly damaged system, and if we're really concerned with dodged costs and mistreated employees we should fix them for everyone - or at least in a more general way.
posted by phearlez at 1:57 PM on December 4, 2014
Why do we hate Uber so much?
And that, in the end, is the real reason so many people hate Uber: Because whatever we do, we can’t stop ourselves from making it bigger and more successful and more terrifying and more necessary. Uber makes everything so easy, which means it shows us who, and what, we really are. It shows us how, whatever objections we might say we hold, we don’t actually care very much at all. We have our beliefs, our morals, our instincts. We have our dislike of douchebags, our mistrust of bad behavior. We have all that. But in the end, it turns out that if something’s 10 percent cheaper and 5 percent faster, we’ll give it all up quicker than we can order a sandwich.posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:38 PM on December 14, 2014
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