Something cold about this investigation
January 13, 2015 3:52 PM Subscribe
Locals couldn’t understand why police hunting the murderer of a 13-year-old girl were taking DNA samples of elderly women. A high profile Italian murder investigation exposes the secrets of more than one family, with controversial collateral damage.
Familial DNA profiling has lead to arrests or closed cases re: the Boston Strangler; the Grim Sleeper and the BTK killer, among others.
Familial DNA profiling has lead to arrests or closed cases re: the Boston Strangler; the Grim Sleeper and the BTK killer, among others.
That is an awesome tale, but I can't see that investigation going the same way in north america. The sheer numbers of people they took DNA from would cause screaming and lawsuits.
posted by swimming naked when the tide goes out at 4:07 PM on January 13, 2015
posted by swimming naked when the tide goes out at 4:07 PM on January 13, 2015
One of my favorite weirdnesses about the Guardian longform piece, which I couldn't really discuss in the post, was its bizarre gothic / fairy tale echoes. Like the exhumations of this long-dead guy, the idea of witches that eat children(!) in the mountains, and then of course the trolling through all possible "fallen women" as the path to cracking the case.
posted by Hypatia at 4:09 PM on January 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Hypatia at 4:09 PM on January 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Investigators said they could have eventually tested all 120,000 phone owners intercepted in the area that night. “But I don’t know if we would have gotten them all,” said Letizia Ruggeri, the lead prosecutor in the case. “Luckily we didn’t have to.”
Wow.
posted by cosmic.osmo at 4:18 PM on January 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wow.
posted by cosmic.osmo at 4:18 PM on January 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can't see that investigation going the same way in north america. The sheer numbers of people they took DNA from would cause screaming and lawsuits.
I can't see it going the same way either, but more due to overwork and incompetence than lawsuits. We allow the NSA to record everything but we use the data for drone strikes, not to solve rape and child murder cases.
posted by benzenedream at 4:23 PM on January 13, 2015 [17 favorites]
I can't see it going the same way either, but more due to overwork and incompetence than lawsuits. We allow the NSA to record everything but we use the data for drone strikes, not to solve rape and child murder cases.
posted by benzenedream at 4:23 PM on January 13, 2015 [17 favorites]
The sheer numbers of people they took DNA from would cause screaming and lawsuits.
I'm sure we'll slouch our way there eventually.
(Never mind, we already are slouching that way, but for much lesser offenses!)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:25 PM on January 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm sure we'll slouch our way there eventually.
(Never mind, we already are slouching that way, but for much lesser offenses!)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:25 PM on January 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
The sheer numbers of people they took DNA from would cause screaming and lawsuits.
The FBI’s federal CODIS DNA database now contains over 11.4 million DNA profiles. What are the odds one of your relatives is already in there?
posted by srboisvert at 5:43 PM on January 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
The FBI’s federal CODIS DNA database now contains over 11.4 million DNA profiles. What are the odds one of your relatives is already in there?
posted by srboisvert at 5:43 PM on January 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
The links in the 2nd paragraph refer to US cases.
Nick Broomfield made a doc about the Grim Sleeper, which will be on HBO in April. No one did much about the case for years because most of his victims were black sex workers.
posted by brujita at 5:56 PM on January 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nick Broomfield made a doc about the Grim Sleeper, which will be on HBO in April. No one did much about the case for years because most of his victims were black sex workers.
posted by brujita at 5:56 PM on January 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
One of my favorite weirdnesses about the Guardian longform piece, which I couldn't really discuss in the post, was its bizarre gothic / fairy tale echoes.
You may already know this, but just in case, Tobias Jones (who wrote that piece) has published a couple of crime novels set in Italy, as well as travel writing (The Dark Heart of Italy). This is pretty much his thing.
posted by RogerB at 7:29 PM on January 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
You may already know this, but just in case, Tobias Jones (who wrote that piece) has published a couple of crime novels set in Italy, as well as travel writing (The Dark Heart of Italy). This is pretty much his thing.
posted by RogerB at 7:29 PM on January 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Say what you want about collateral damage and NSA and whatever, but man the commitment to finding the murderer of this poor girl is astounding.
posted by repoman at 8:26 PM on January 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by repoman at 8:26 PM on January 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
That picture of Ruggeri is just fantastic. She's got a face I'd want in charge of anything--she looks like she brooks no nonsense from anyone.
As for civil liberties... I'm torn. On the one hand, yes, you can't be compelled to provide incriminating evidence against yourself, which doesn't apply with familial DNA--the only arguments I can think of (apart from the scrutiny of minority populations as raised in the BTK article, which is an enormous consideration) that would be applicable would also destroy any other kind of evidence that relies on interpersonal connections. And that way lies madness, I think.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:29 PM on January 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
As for civil liberties... I'm torn. On the one hand, yes, you can't be compelled to provide incriminating evidence against yourself, which doesn't apply with familial DNA--the only arguments I can think of (apart from the scrutiny of minority populations as raised in the BTK article, which is an enormous consideration) that would be applicable would also destroy any other kind of evidence that relies on interpersonal connections. And that way lies madness, I think.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:29 PM on January 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
She looks like she could stare down Clint Eastwood.
posted by carping demon at 9:10 PM on January 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by carping demon at 9:10 PM on January 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Correction, she looks like she could eat Clint Eastwood and use his femur as a toothpick.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:23 PM on January 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:23 PM on January 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
"The woman they were looking for, they realised, was probably neither single nor 'fallen', but hidden behind the walls of a marriage."
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:15 PM on January 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:15 PM on January 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Whole lot to unpack there, isn't there?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:28 PM on January 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:28 PM on January 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
feckless fecal fear mongering: "That picture of Ruggeri is just fantastic. She's got a face I'd want in charge of anything--she looks like she brooks no nonsense from anyone."Yeah, that was my thought as well when I saw it. Not a person you'd want to cross.
posted by brokkr at 3:22 AM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
The FBI’s federal CODIS DNA database now contains over 11.4 million DNA profiles. What are the odds one of your relatives is already in there?
Roughly one third of the US African American population and one tenth of the US white population are searchable through CODIS. If you consider that any contact with the police has the potential to be costly (especially for minorities), this is troubling. The fact that BTK Killer was identified through testing of a pap smear left by his daughter at a university clinic (after he had been targeted using traditional police work) brings to mind a number of potential perverse consequences if DNA dragnets become widespread
posted by Svejk at 6:13 AM on January 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Roughly one third of the US African American population and one tenth of the US white population are searchable through CODIS. If you consider that any contact with the police has the potential to be costly (especially for minorities), this is troubling. The fact that BTK Killer was identified through testing of a pap smear left by his daughter at a university clinic (after he had been targeted using traditional police work) brings to mind a number of potential perverse consequences if DNA dragnets become widespread
posted by Svejk at 6:13 AM on January 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Wow, fascinating read. Thanks.
This question likely reveals how warped my mind is by media storytelling, but why did he (allegedly) kill her if he did not sexually assault her? Do adult, male strangers ever kill tween girls without sexually assaulting them in some way?
posted by Punctual at 6:59 AM on January 14, 2015
This question likely reveals how warped my mind is by media storytelling, but why did he (allegedly) kill her if he did not sexually assault her? Do adult, male strangers ever kill tween girls without sexually assaulting them in some way?
posted by Punctual at 6:59 AM on January 14, 2015
Yes. One possibility: he was enraged when she wasn't interested, assaulted her and killed her. Another: for him the sexual gratification is in the act of killing itself.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:04 AM on January 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:04 AM on January 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
When DNA testing first became widely available, I wondered (and still do) how often people using services like 23andMe learn their family tree has an extra banch or two in it. DNA parentage testing has certainly revised our view of monogamy in birds.
posted by TedW at 7:37 AM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TedW at 7:37 AM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
The sheer numbers of people they took DNA from would cause screaming and lawsuits.
I highly recommend that anyone with an interest in this whole topic read The Blooding by Joseph Wambaugh, which is about what was basically the first use of mass DNA screening to solve a crime, and one of the first cases anywhere to be solved using DNA evidence. In this case, they took about 5,000 samples from men in the area (the crime was a rape/murder and they had a semen sample to match against), and an interesting feature of the case is that it wasn't the DNA itself that allowed them to identify a suspect, but rather the fact that the killer paid a co-worker to submit a sample for him. DNA also allowed them to exclude a suspect who likely would have otherwise been convicted.
posted by anastasiav at 7:42 AM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I highly recommend that anyone with an interest in this whole topic read The Blooding by Joseph Wambaugh, which is about what was basically the first use of mass DNA screening to solve a crime, and one of the first cases anywhere to be solved using DNA evidence. In this case, they took about 5,000 samples from men in the area (the crime was a rape/murder and they had a semen sample to match against), and an interesting feature of the case is that it wasn't the DNA itself that allowed them to identify a suspect, but rather the fact that the killer paid a co-worker to submit a sample for him. DNA also allowed them to exclude a suspect who likely would have otherwise been convicted.
posted by anastasiav at 7:42 AM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm sure there was something here on the blue a few months ago about people using 23andMe who discovered their parents' infidelities via the presence of half-siblings also using the service.
Regarding holding DNA and using families to find a suspect, I'm conflicted. On the one hand solving cases is great and DNA is a great tool for exoneration too. On the other, the way it's collected and stored troubles me, though I can't say entirely why.
posted by Braeburn at 9:30 AM on January 14, 2015
Regarding holding DNA and using families to find a suspect, I'm conflicted. On the one hand solving cases is great and DNA is a great tool for exoneration too. On the other, the way it's collected and stored troubles me, though I can't say entirely why.
posted by Braeburn at 9:30 AM on January 14, 2015
When DNA testing first became widely available, I wondered (and still do) how often people using services like 23andMe learn their family tree has an extra banch or two in it
One of the oddest cases I remember from my work in Cytogenetics was a child with a #2 chromosome missing a piece. Neither parent had the balanced translocation that would have caused this. This lead us to believe that the dad was not the biological dad but nothing could be said because, even in a private interview with the genetic counselor, mom was absolutely certain of paternity.
Few months later, another child shows up with the identical chromosome: the genetic counselor could not get a name, even after explaining that we would maintain the secrecy. So there is this man in the Midwest who is not shy about having unprotected sex, and who will father children with genetic problems 50% of the time . An amniocentesis could prevent a lot of suffering.
posted by francesca too at 12:50 PM on January 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
One of the oddest cases I remember from my work in Cytogenetics was a child with a #2 chromosome missing a piece. Neither parent had the balanced translocation that would have caused this. This lead us to believe that the dad was not the biological dad but nothing could be said because, even in a private interview with the genetic counselor, mom was absolutely certain of paternity.
Few months later, another child shows up with the identical chromosome: the genetic counselor could not get a name, even after explaining that we would maintain the secrecy. So there is this man in the Midwest who is not shy about having unprotected sex, and who will father children with genetic problems 50% of the time . An amniocentesis could prevent a lot of suffering.
posted by francesca too at 12:50 PM on January 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
"You illigitimate son of a dead man," my new favorite epithet.
posted by Oyéah at 3:29 PM on January 14, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 3:29 PM on January 14, 2015
The investigator has a calm, renaissance look with that slightly elevated left, skeptical eyebrow, this is a remarkable portrait.
posted by Oyéah at 5:53 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 5:53 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
So there is this man in the Midwest who is not shy about having unprotected sex, and who will father children with genetic problems 50% of the time . An amniocentesis could prevent a lot of suffering.
Hmm. I wonder if there is any other explanation that makes sense, given that neither woman, even when assured confidentiality, implicated another man?
All I can think of is either a Buttercup kind of deal, or the local hospital is really bad at keeping track of those mom/baby wristbands.
posted by misha at 6:38 PM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hmm. I wonder if there is any other explanation that makes sense, given that neither woman, even when assured confidentiality, implicated another man?
All I can think of is either a Buttercup kind of deal, or the local hospital is really bad at keeping track of those mom/baby wristbands.
posted by misha at 6:38 PM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
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