The youth of Greece are revolting
January 26, 2015 5:11 AM Subscribe
In a functional market economy, the classic couple in a posh restaurant are young and close in age. In my travels through the eurocrisis – from Dublin to Athens – I have noticed that the classic couple in a dysfunctional economy is a grey-haired man with a twentysomething woman. It becomes a story of old men with oligarchic power flaunting their wealth and influence without opprobrium.
As Syriza forms an coalition government, falling two votes short of a (rare) outright victory, Paul Mason (previously on Mefi: 1, 2, 3, 4) explains how a youthful generation of Greek professionals finally had enough of tax-evading oligarchs.
As Syriza forms an coalition government, falling two votes short of a (rare) outright victory, Paul Mason (previously on Mefi: 1, 2, 3, 4) explains how a youthful generation of Greek professionals finally had enough of tax-evading oligarchs.
Trenchant, clear-eyed pieces from Owen Jones and Zoe Williams in today's Guardian on the result's implications for the European social democratic left:
posted by Sonny Jim at 5:28 AM on January 26, 2015 [43 favorites]
*please don't fuck it up for the rest of the left even though I have no right to ask that*
posted by longbaugh at 5:39 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 5:39 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
The pull quote immediately reminds me of a previous story on MetaFilter, "Social Inequality Breeds Game". If you want to treat women as less-than-fully-human, there's nothing quite as useful for you as extreme economic inequality.
Hell, if you want to treat anyone as less-than-fully-human, there's nothing quite as useful for you as extreme economic inequality. So long as you're the one on top, anyway.
posted by clawsoon at 5:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [38 favorites]
Hell, if you want to treat anyone as less-than-fully-human, there's nothing quite as useful for you as extreme economic inequality. So long as you're the one on top, anyway.
posted by clawsoon at 5:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [38 favorites]
Nonetheless, a left that was no longer supposed to exist has returned. Neoliberalism is no longer without formidable enemies.
I'm sure that at the Economics faculty of the University of Chicago, they're already discussing who's going to advise the CIA-appointed “caretaker government” in 6-12 months.
posted by acb at 5:49 AM on January 26, 2015 [41 favorites]
I'm sure that at the Economics faculty of the University of Chicago, they're already discussing who's going to advise the CIA-appointed “caretaker government” in 6-12 months.
posted by acb at 5:49 AM on January 26, 2015 [41 favorites]
In the USA, the effort to reframe policies that support the status quo of SSA, Medicaid, AFDC, etc, as "radical leftism" is familiar.
posted by thelonius at 5:49 AM on January 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 5:49 AM on January 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
I have limitless confidence that the oligarchs will once again manipulate the economy in order to bring down the new government, and their bought-and-paid media will scream "See? I told you so!"
posted by Thorzdad at 5:52 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:52 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
Spain next... bankers may need to adjust their expectations in the next few years. Perhaps elites can't steal all the surplus, everywhere, forever.
posted by colie at 5:52 AM on January 26, 2015
posted by colie at 5:52 AM on January 26, 2015
The Greek election is also the subject of this morning's Paul Krugman column.
posted by Gelatin at 5:52 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 5:52 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
Don't celebrate too much. "Yes, we can?"
This is a battle won, not the war. Not by a long shot.
posted by eriko at 5:58 AM on January 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is a battle won, not the war. Not by a long shot.
posted by eriko at 5:58 AM on January 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
So long as you're the one on top, anyway.
I've always been struck how many supporters of policies that lead to greater inequality have no realistic chance of ever being within sight of the top, much less benefiting from those policies. I mean, I've had people who were probably receiving the Earned Income Tax Credit tell me why a flat tax would be great, and while I'm ok with people philosophically supporting things that are against their own economic interest, the dissonance was strong.
I'll be watching the outcome in Greece with interest. The extraordinarily high unemployment (especially of youth) in much of Europe seems to me to be definitionally unsustainable and perhaps increasingly unstable, so I'd expect to see more non-centrist governments being elected, either right wing populist or leftist like in this case.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:03 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've always been struck how many supporters of policies that lead to greater inequality have no realistic chance of ever being within sight of the top, much less benefiting from those policies. I mean, I've had people who were probably receiving the Earned Income Tax Credit tell me why a flat tax would be great, and while I'm ok with people philosophically supporting things that are against their own economic interest, the dissonance was strong.
I'll be watching the outcome in Greece with interest. The extraordinarily high unemployment (especially of youth) in much of Europe seems to me to be definitionally unsustainable and perhaps increasingly unstable, so I'd expect to see more non-centrist governments being elected, either right wing populist or leftist like in this case.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:03 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
The fact that a party with a “central committee” even got close to power has nothing to do with a sudden swing to Marxism in the Greek psyche.That reminds me of a favourite quote of mine, from a man who "was by no means a Marxist":
May God preserve Communism so that the evil brood of its enemies may be prevented from becoming more bare-faced still, so that the gang of profiteers...shall have their sleep disturbed by a few pangs of anxiety.Communism turned out bad, but the threat of it made capitalism better. The world could use a few more hard leftists to keep some people up at night.
posted by clawsoon at 6:05 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Communism turned out bad, but the threat of it made capitalism better.
How? It sure made a lot of foreign and domestic policy terrible. We're still haunted by the specter of the ghost of the memory of Communism. We can't have a decent health care system in the US because OMGCommunism. All of our troubles with Afghanistan, and a good deal of the nieghboring crazy, have their roots in the US's efforts to keep the Soviet Union from taking it.
(The Space Race was a good thing, though. But that was plain old government spending, not capitalism.)
posted by Foosnark at 6:21 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
How? It sure made a lot of foreign and domestic policy terrible. We're still haunted by the specter of the ghost of the memory of Communism. We can't have a decent health care system in the US because OMGCommunism. All of our troubles with Afghanistan, and a good deal of the nieghboring crazy, have their roots in the US's efforts to keep the Soviet Union from taking it.
(The Space Race was a good thing, though. But that was plain old government spending, not capitalism.)
posted by Foosnark at 6:21 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
As one might expect, Jacobin has been all over this:
On the Doorstep of Power
Winning an Election Does Not Mean Winning Power
Hope Is on the Way
Greece: Phase One
Understanding the Greek Communists
A Historic Opportunity
I would also note there was a pre-election thread about SYRIZA three days ago.
Lastly, something I linked in the other thread: the celebration of SYRIZA members at the party's Athens election centre last night (Bella Ciao song lyrics). I don't think anyone has been that happy in Greece for a while.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:28 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
On the Doorstep of Power
Winning an Election Does Not Mean Winning Power
Hope Is on the Way
Greece: Phase One
Understanding the Greek Communists
A Historic Opportunity
I would also note there was a pre-election thread about SYRIZA three days ago.
Lastly, something I linked in the other thread: the celebration of SYRIZA members at the party's Athens election centre last night (Bella Ciao song lyrics). I don't think anyone has been that happy in Greece for a while.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:28 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
I have limitless confidence that the oligarchs will once again manipulate the economy in order to bring down the new government, and their bought-and-paid media will scream "See? I told you so!"
But they are truculent in Greece. They will absolutely burn shit down. To the Greek activists I have met, Syriza is moderate. And there's still a lot of memories of the civil war and the right wing coup in the sixties - anything really aggressively fascist is going to push about a million buttons. Greece is really a special case. (So I wonder just how generalizable Syriza's victory is, but it's still so exciting. And wonderful for Greece - it seems like even if they can't do what they hope, they'll still push things back away from the precipice.)
How? It sure made a lot of foreign and domestic policy terrible
The US government responses to the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement and labor organizing generally were always steered by the fear that the Soviets would exploit anything too egregious. We had to at least try not to look like racist monsters, because the more racist and monstrous we looked, the more traction this gave the Soviets and communism generally in the developing world. Because of the possibility of communism, there was this immediate pressure to buy off labor with actual meaningful concessions in exchange for not being commies - labor organizing changes dramatically after the Soviet Union gets set up, and changes again after 1989. Before the USSR - it's hanging IWWs and hiring Pinkertons to shoot women and children; afterward, that's not on the table.
Obviously, there were other large economic factors in play - but the US was really, genuinely both afraid of mass communist organizing (especially in the 1920s and right after WWII, when there were communist victories in Western Europe) and very anxious to maintain its prestige relative to the USSR. Looking back after the Soviet Union, I think it's hard for people to really viscerally understand that.
It's not "we can't have national health care because of communism"; it's "we don't want to give you national health care, so we'll drum up the fear of communism to justify holding it back".
Honestly, in my now many years of activism of various kinds, the thing I've realized is that the state is shit-scared of even the smallest radical left victory, because they believe that it will encourage other campaigns. (This is actually a right wing think tank truism, it turns out.) I always used to wonder why they'd smash protests that were obviously, obviously going to foam and froth for a while and then go nowhere; I always used to wonder why they wouldn't make even a teeny-tiny concession just to get people to go home. And it is because they are scared that regular people will be inspired and start demanding stuff. Regardless of its actual nature, the Soviet Union kept coming up in the popular imagination as this place where school was free, and healthcare was free, and you always had a job and a place to live.
I was in grade school in the 1980s in a conservative town - not exactly a great time and place for falling in love with communism - and my school hired someone to come in and give us anti-Soviet propaganda talks. That's how committed people were to smashing the idea of the USSR.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 AM on January 26, 2015 [115 favorites]
But they are truculent in Greece. They will absolutely burn shit down. To the Greek activists I have met, Syriza is moderate. And there's still a lot of memories of the civil war and the right wing coup in the sixties - anything really aggressively fascist is going to push about a million buttons. Greece is really a special case. (So I wonder just how generalizable Syriza's victory is, but it's still so exciting. And wonderful for Greece - it seems like even if they can't do what they hope, they'll still push things back away from the precipice.)
How? It sure made a lot of foreign and domestic policy terrible
The US government responses to the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement and labor organizing generally were always steered by the fear that the Soviets would exploit anything too egregious. We had to at least try not to look like racist monsters, because the more racist and monstrous we looked, the more traction this gave the Soviets and communism generally in the developing world. Because of the possibility of communism, there was this immediate pressure to buy off labor with actual meaningful concessions in exchange for not being commies - labor organizing changes dramatically after the Soviet Union gets set up, and changes again after 1989. Before the USSR - it's hanging IWWs and hiring Pinkertons to shoot women and children; afterward, that's not on the table.
Obviously, there were other large economic factors in play - but the US was really, genuinely both afraid of mass communist organizing (especially in the 1920s and right after WWII, when there were communist victories in Western Europe) and very anxious to maintain its prestige relative to the USSR. Looking back after the Soviet Union, I think it's hard for people to really viscerally understand that.
It's not "we can't have national health care because of communism"; it's "we don't want to give you national health care, so we'll drum up the fear of communism to justify holding it back".
Honestly, in my now many years of activism of various kinds, the thing I've realized is that the state is shit-scared of even the smallest radical left victory, because they believe that it will encourage other campaigns. (This is actually a right wing think tank truism, it turns out.) I always used to wonder why they'd smash protests that were obviously, obviously going to foam and froth for a while and then go nowhere; I always used to wonder why they wouldn't make even a teeny-tiny concession just to get people to go home. And it is because they are scared that regular people will be inspired and start demanding stuff. Regardless of its actual nature, the Soviet Union kept coming up in the popular imagination as this place where school was free, and healthcare was free, and you always had a job and a place to live.
I was in grade school in the 1980s in a conservative town - not exactly a great time and place for falling in love with communism - and my school hired someone to come in and give us anti-Soviet propaganda talks. That's how committed people were to smashing the idea of the USSR.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 AM on January 26, 2015 [115 favorites]
We're still haunted by the specter of the ghost of the memory of Communism. We can't have a decent health care system in the US because OMGCommunism.
That's now, after Reagan vanquished it. Think back to the Eisenhower era, with its bipartisan consensus on an economy based on middle-class prosperity, with a welfare safety-net for those who fall through the cracks. Or the social-democratic welfare states of Europe, with their 6 weeks of paid leave a year. Or places like Germany and Australia, where unions and employers sat down and compromised to make deals that guaranteed long-term prosperity (modest but steady wage rises) for both sides.
The owners were forced to sacrifice some of their profits by the spectre that, if they flogged the workers too hard, they might start listening to those Moscow-backed agitators and soon there may be much more serious trouble. Now that there are no foreign military/economic powers who could plausibly underwrite a revolution*, the deals are off the table, and the stakeholders are free to “reduce labour costs”, “maximise productivity” and so on by coercion.
* such a revolution, in actuality, may be the worst of both worlds for all involved, except for the new stakeholders abroad, but it's the threat, and the possibility that enough people with nothing to lose might not care, that counts.
posted by acb at 6:40 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's now, after Reagan vanquished it. Think back to the Eisenhower era, with its bipartisan consensus on an economy based on middle-class prosperity, with a welfare safety-net for those who fall through the cracks. Or the social-democratic welfare states of Europe, with their 6 weeks of paid leave a year. Or places like Germany and Australia, where unions and employers sat down and compromised to make deals that guaranteed long-term prosperity (modest but steady wage rises) for both sides.
The owners were forced to sacrifice some of their profits by the spectre that, if they flogged the workers too hard, they might start listening to those Moscow-backed agitators and soon there may be much more serious trouble. Now that there are no foreign military/economic powers who could plausibly underwrite a revolution*, the deals are off the table, and the stakeholders are free to “reduce labour costs”, “maximise productivity” and so on by coercion.
* such a revolution, in actuality, may be the worst of both worlds for all involved, except for the new stakeholders abroad, but it's the threat, and the possibility that enough people with nothing to lose might not care, that counts.
posted by acb at 6:40 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
"The US government responses to the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement and labor organizing generally were always steered by the fear that the Soviets would exploit anything too egregious."
I just want to say thank you. I've never stopped being surprised at how few Americans in or out of the left understand this. The fact that Soviets were usually just as bad doesn't change that.
posted by IShouldBeStudyingRightNow at 6:42 AM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
I just want to say thank you. I've never stopped being surprised at how few Americans in or out of the left understand this. The fact that Soviets were usually just as bad doesn't change that.
posted by IShouldBeStudyingRightNow at 6:42 AM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
urgh, morality police much?
If you see one old man dining with an attractive, glamorous-looking young woman: maybe she's in love with him for his personality and they really are kindred spirits in a way nobody outside can understand.
If you see the pattern repeatedly: it's probably a symptom of structural inequality.
Sure, a few instances will be the suitor's wit and/or kindness outweighing his physical decrepitude (and none of us are getting any more attractive as we age), but if the sample's big enough, that's statistical noise.
posted by acb at 6:44 AM on January 26, 2015 [51 favorites]
If you see one old man dining with an attractive, glamorous-looking young woman: maybe she's in love with him for his personality and they really are kindred spirits in a way nobody outside can understand.
If you see the pattern repeatedly: it's probably a symptom of structural inequality.
Sure, a few instances will be the suitor's wit and/or kindness outweighing his physical decrepitude (and none of us are getting any more attractive as we age), but if the sample's big enough, that's statistical noise.
posted by acb at 6:44 AM on January 26, 2015 [51 favorites]
As Krugman notes, barring a revolution in Euro finance, SYRIZA *has* to manage a transition out of the Euro in order to have any hope of a conventional economic recovery in Greece (i.e. generate capital reserverse through trade.) The problem is, despite the anti-capitalist rhetoric, that they have committed themselves to a conventional economic recovery and a revival of social democratic institutions i.e. welfare.
If you read "Greece: Phase One" in Jacobin, Stathis Kouvelakis lays out clearly that the political base of SYRIZA is academics and public sector professionals and they have only expanded, haphazardly into youth and worker demographics with the collapse of the political establishment in Greece.
So, SYRIZA has to take the Greek electorate on a political journey to a more radical outlook (leaving the Euro), but stay within the bounds of conventional economics and all without a genuine populist base of support. And, they are likely to form a coalition with parties to the *right* of them to maintain (presumably) a veneer or consensus politics.
Despite the "radical left" rhetoric and the disdain for traditional European "social democracy," they have committed themselves to reviving social democracy but there is a mismatch between this goal and the basic politics behind SYRIZA. Basically, given that northern europe is going to ratfuck Tsipras at every opportunity, this looks to me like Kerensky and the Mensheviks on a Greek vacation.
Without a miraculous economic recovery, Greek society is headed for a social revolution and I'd be surprised if SYRIZA can ride that wave.
posted by ennui.bz at 6:47 AM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
If you read "Greece: Phase One" in Jacobin, Stathis Kouvelakis lays out clearly that the political base of SYRIZA is academics and public sector professionals and they have only expanded, haphazardly into youth and worker demographics with the collapse of the political establishment in Greece.
So, SYRIZA has to take the Greek electorate on a political journey to a more radical outlook (leaving the Euro), but stay within the bounds of conventional economics and all without a genuine populist base of support. And, they are likely to form a coalition with parties to the *right* of them to maintain (presumably) a veneer or consensus politics.
Despite the "radical left" rhetoric and the disdain for traditional European "social democracy," they have committed themselves to reviving social democracy but there is a mismatch between this goal and the basic politics behind SYRIZA. Basically, given that northern europe is going to ratfuck Tsipras at every opportunity, this looks to me like Kerensky and the Mensheviks on a Greek vacation.
Without a miraculous economic recovery, Greek society is headed for a social revolution and I'd be surprised if SYRIZA can ride that wave.
posted by ennui.bz at 6:47 AM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Anti-austerity cheerleaders can only cheer avoiding the central question - Greece is a member of the Euro, it can't just magic money out of thin air. It has debts that need to be paid. if it does not pay its debts it cannot function. If it leaves the euro is becomes Zimbabwe or Argentina in terms of inflation and misery - if it stays in it can't deliver on the promises that they have made.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 6:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 6:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: they are truculent in Greece
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:53 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:53 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Greece is a member of the Euro, it can't just magic money out of thin air. It has debts that need to be paid. if it does not pay its debts it cannot function.
But the idea that Greece can pay it's debts is a total fantasy. You've set up a situation where Greece must accept being owned by Northern European bankers in a state of perpetual economic depression because....?
The problem with repudiating it's debts is that Greece will lose access to cheap "European" capital. But, with a devalued Greek currency, they can begin to earn capital through trade and inflate away internal debts through fiscal spending i.e. printing money. Greece is *already* in economic collapse. Argentina has big economic problems, but it is hardly in a state of collapse.
Greece is in economic misery already and the failure ofausterity cheerleaders Euro-elites to provide a way forward out of that can only lead to radical change one way or another.
posted by ennui.bz at 6:58 AM on January 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
But the idea that Greece can pay it's debts is a total fantasy. You've set up a situation where Greece must accept being owned by Northern European bankers in a state of perpetual economic depression because....?
The problem with repudiating it's debts is that Greece will lose access to cheap "European" capital. But, with a devalued Greek currency, they can begin to earn capital through trade and inflate away internal debts through fiscal spending i.e. printing money. Greece is *already* in economic collapse. Argentina has big economic problems, but it is hardly in a state of collapse.
Greece is in economic misery already and the failure of
posted by ennui.bz at 6:58 AM on January 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
Anti-austerity cheerleaders can only cheer avoiding the central question
Which is why a central part of SYRIZA's platform is renegotiating that debt.
This moralistic bombast behind the shriek of "All debts must be repaid!" is a shallow facade masking a bourgeoisie agenda. The only ones that non-negotiable debts apply to are the little people. Once one is dealing with a large enough amount of capital, one discovers that the rules change. There was a book about this recently.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:02 AM on January 26, 2015 [29 favorites]
Which is why a central part of SYRIZA's platform is renegotiating that debt.
This moralistic bombast behind the shriek of "All debts must be repaid!" is a shallow facade masking a bourgeoisie agenda. The only ones that non-negotiable debts apply to are the little people. Once one is dealing with a large enough amount of capital, one discovers that the rules change. There was a book about this recently.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:02 AM on January 26, 2015 [29 favorites]
The only answer here is default and a euro exit. The idea that that will destroy Greece's economy and credit is laughable. People will line up to loan money to a Greece without a huge debt load. It happened with Argentina, random ship seizures aside.
posted by empath at 7:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by empath at 7:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
urgh, morality police much?
Yeah, this is kind of a little awful, as is the idea that older men out with younger women are flaunting their power.
posted by corb at 7:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is kind of a little awful, as is the idea that older men out with younger women are flaunting their power.
posted by corb at 7:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Back in 1953, under the London Debt Agreement, America asked European countries, including Greece, to agree to write off 60 percent of Germany’s debts from World War II and to put a moratorium on debt repayments. That was accepted as a solution. What we are asking from Germany is basically the same." - Alexis Tsipras in a 2013 interview with the Washington Monthly.
It is perfectly normal for debts to troubled debtors to be renegotiated and/or partially or wholly written off. It was done for Germany in the early 50s, and it can and should be done for Greece now. Or maybe Greece should just exit the Euro. What doesn't make sense is the current situation in which austerity measures serve to reinforce and prolong an economic depression.
posted by Area Man at 7:06 AM on January 26, 2015 [16 favorites]
It is perfectly normal for debts to troubled debtors to be renegotiated and/or partially or wholly written off. It was done for Germany in the early 50s, and it can and should be done for Greece now. Or maybe Greece should just exit the Euro. What doesn't make sense is the current situation in which austerity measures serve to reinforce and prolong an economic depression.
posted by Area Man at 7:06 AM on January 26, 2015 [16 favorites]
To the Greek activists I have met, Syriza is moderate.
In the bad old days of the two major parties in Greece, PASOK and ND, the political identity of Syriza was that of the progressive, modern, not violently radical but still actual-capital-l Left. Since then they have toned their rhetoric down considerably on their way to power - both as a deliberate strategy to appeal to the center, and as a consequence of absorbing political refugees from PASOK. The panic of OMG MARXISM in response to the Syriza victory is a little amusing.
posted by Dr Dracator at 7:08 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
In the bad old days of the two major parties in Greece, PASOK and ND, the political identity of Syriza was that of the progressive, modern, not violently radical but still actual-capital-l Left. Since then they have toned their rhetoric down considerably on their way to power - both as a deliberate strategy to appeal to the center, and as a consequence of absorbing political refugees from PASOK. The panic of OMG MARXISM in response to the Syriza victory is a little amusing.
posted by Dr Dracator at 7:08 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
"This moralistic bombast behind the shriek of "All debts must be repaid!" is a shallow facade masking a bourgeoisie agenda" I don't really have any comment about this but its a very helpful way to understand where western supporters of SYRIZA are coming from - I guess if you can use "bourgeoisie agenda" in a sentence without irony in 2015…
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 7:11 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 7:11 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is kind of a little awful, as is the idea that older men out with younger women are flaunting their power.
Really, though? This strikes me as willfully ignoring reality. Do you actually, honestly think that these cases are mostly sweet May/December romances?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:17 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
Really, though? This strikes me as willfully ignoring reality. Do you actually, honestly think that these cases are mostly sweet May/December romances?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:17 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
David Cameron, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom gave a statesmanlike warm welcome to the newly democratically elected government of Greece.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:17 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:17 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
AFPFTNF, that's a great tone argument.
But back in Greece, nobody is pretending that capitalists don't have an agenda for the country. That's why SYRIZA won. I guess we agree on that.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:20 AM on January 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
But back in Greece, nobody is pretending that capitalists don't have an agenda for the country. That's why SYRIZA won. I guess we agree on that.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:20 AM on January 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
The problem Syriza confronts is that servicing the debt requires austerity, but re-defaulting the debt will probably exclude Greece from the capital markets and maybe even kick it out of the Euro, which will lead to more austerity (potentially much more). "Tax the rich" will work very poorly because most rich Greeks earn their income, and hold their assets, abroad. "Tax the middle class" is just austerity by another name. No easy solutions for anyone.
posted by MattD at 7:29 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MattD at 7:29 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
if you can use "bourgeoisie agenda" in a sentence without irony in 2015…
Ruling elites, ruling class, capitalists, exploiters, bourgeoisie... whatever you call them, they love it when people try to make others think they don't really exist.
posted by colie at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
Ruling elites, ruling class, capitalists, exploiters, bourgeoisie... whatever you call them, they love it when people try to make others think they don't really exist.
posted by colie at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
The panic of OMG MARXISM in response to the Syriza victory is a little amusing.
It's not amusing. It's quite intentional. Step one is "demonize the enemy" and that's what someone is doing.
posted by eriko at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
It's not amusing. It's quite intentional. Step one is "demonize the enemy" and that's what someone is doing.
posted by eriko at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
Really, though? This strikes me as willfully ignoring reality. Do you actually, honestly think that these cases are mostly sweet May/December romances?
I think it's a little more complicated than that.
The male youth of Greece is up in revolt. Anarchy, riots in the street, etc. Who wants to build a family around that? Even if I were a comfortably off professional woman, with no financial need, I wouldn't want to marry and make babies with a guy who was out in the streets and risking our futures for his radical political ideas. I'd want to marry a grayhead who talked to me about settling down, about families and houses and building a life together. Romance on the barricades is only fun for a little while.
I mean, fuck, that's what I did in my actual US life - dated a lot of radicals, settled down with a guy with radical politics but who was willing not to risk our family for them. I didn't marry an older guy, because I was able to find a younger guy who was marriage-minded. But in a place with 60% youth unemployment and a shit ton of anger, where are you going to find marriage-minded young men?
posted by corb at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's a little more complicated than that.
The male youth of Greece is up in revolt. Anarchy, riots in the street, etc. Who wants to build a family around that? Even if I were a comfortably off professional woman, with no financial need, I wouldn't want to marry and make babies with a guy who was out in the streets and risking our futures for his radical political ideas. I'd want to marry a grayhead who talked to me about settling down, about families and houses and building a life together. Romance on the barricades is only fun for a little while.
I mean, fuck, that's what I did in my actual US life - dated a lot of radicals, settled down with a guy with radical politics but who was willing not to risk our family for them. I didn't marry an older guy, because I was able to find a younger guy who was marriage-minded. But in a place with 60% youth unemployment and a shit ton of anger, where are you going to find marriage-minded young men?
posted by corb at 7:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd want to marry a grayhead who talked to me about settling down, about families and houses and building a life together.
Like he did with the previous two wives.
posted by colie at 7:33 AM on January 26, 2015 [47 favorites]
Like he did with the previous two wives.
posted by colie at 7:33 AM on January 26, 2015 [47 favorites]
The panic of OMG MARXISM in response to the Syriza victory is a little amusing.
and the irony is that what Syriza is publicly proposing is what should have already been done in the first place, if the Northern Europeans weren't beset by their own internal political contradictions. the policies imposed on Greece had no conventional economic policy basis, they were part of the internal politics of the northern euro states response to the recession: propping up failed banks and maintaining pressure on their own leftist opposition to depress wages. now europe is in deflation and if the european economy starts to contract vigorously again, I'm sure it will be because of the instability and lack of confidence engendered by irresponsible leftists groups.
David Cameron, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom gave a statesmanlike warm welcome to the newly democratically elected government of Greece.
I wonder which Greek business-leader/millionaire is going to be the next prime minister of Greece?
posted by ennui.bz at 7:37 AM on January 26, 2015
and the irony is that what Syriza is publicly proposing is what should have already been done in the first place, if the Northern Europeans weren't beset by their own internal political contradictions. the policies imposed on Greece had no conventional economic policy basis, they were part of the internal politics of the northern euro states response to the recession: propping up failed banks and maintaining pressure on their own leftist opposition to depress wages. now europe is in deflation and if the european economy starts to contract vigorously again, I'm sure it will be because of the instability and lack of confidence engendered by irresponsible leftists groups.
David Cameron, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom gave a statesmanlike warm welcome to the newly democratically elected government of Greece.
I wonder which Greek business-leader/millionaire is going to be the next prime minister of Greece?
posted by ennui.bz at 7:37 AM on January 26, 2015
Age gap relationships tend to benefit the health of the older partner to the detriment of the younger at least according to this.
"60% youth unemployment and a shit ton of anger"
Um- yeah. That's the point? The trend is a sign of cultural problems not that women innately gravitate toward men twice their age who will die when they are still middle aged? When it's really two people who fall in love- it's fine. When whole communities are built around much older men marrying very young women it's a sign something is out of balance or that there is a patriarchal trend to the society because marrying a very young person makes it easier to teach and mold them to your values (like say that you are the master and they are the servant/inferior) which is an ideology common in a lot of sexist societies.
posted by xarnop at 7:37 AM on January 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
"60% youth unemployment and a shit ton of anger"
Um- yeah. That's the point? The trend is a sign of cultural problems not that women innately gravitate toward men twice their age who will die when they are still middle aged? When it's really two people who fall in love- it's fine. When whole communities are built around much older men marrying very young women it's a sign something is out of balance or that there is a patriarchal trend to the society because marrying a very young person makes it easier to teach and mold them to your values (like say that you are the master and they are the servant/inferior) which is an ideology common in a lot of sexist societies.
posted by xarnop at 7:37 AM on January 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ruling elites, ruling class, capitalists, exploiters, bourgeoisie
Surely the bourgeoisie are not the ruling elites, but the metropolitan middle class (in the old-fashioned sense) who profit from being in the right place, but are nowhere near the peak of the pyramid...
posted by acb at 7:39 AM on January 26, 2015
Surely the bourgeoisie are not the ruling elites, but the metropolitan middle class (in the old-fashioned sense) who profit from being in the right place, but are nowhere near the peak of the pyramid...
posted by acb at 7:39 AM on January 26, 2015
Mod note: The question of whether or not it's normal/strange/endearing to seeing an older man/younger woman couple in a relationship seems like a side-derail to the subject of the post, the Syriza movement in Greece
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:40 AM on January 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by mathowie (staff) at 7:40 AM on January 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
Perhaps this should be reposted with a different pull quote.
posted by empath at 7:44 AM on January 26, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by empath at 7:44 AM on January 26, 2015 [16 favorites]
Honestly, in my now many years of activism of various kinds, the thing I've realized is that the state is shit-scared of even the smallest radical left victory, because they believe that it will encourage other campaigns. (This is actually a right wing think tank truism, it turns out.) I always used to wonder why they'd smash protests that were obviously, obviously going to foam and froth for a while and then go nowhere; I always used to wonder why they wouldn't make even a teeny-tiny concession just to get people to go home. And it is because they are scared that regular people will be inspired and start demanding stuff. Regardless of its actual nature, the Soviet Union kept coming up in the popular imagination as this place where school was free, and healthcare was free, and you always had a job and a place to live.
Go look at the kid glove treatment the Cliven Bundy rebels were/are given to see this. The government doesn't mind right-wing protestors until they commit violence. Lefties are smashed early and smashed hard even if they refuse violence.
Anti-austerity cheerleaders can only cheer avoiding the central question
The central point is that austerity does not work and only creates even worse economic outcomes, that it amounts to a starving carpenter selling his tools to buy food and becoming soon both unable to afford food and unable to be hired to earn money to buy food.
Surely the bourgeoisie are not the ruling elites, but the metropolitan middle class (in the old-fashioned sense) who profit from being in the right place, but are nowhere near the peak of the pyramid...
The bourgeoisie are the capitalist class who control capital and through it the state and society. Call them the ruling elite if you prefer, but the literal "middle class" definition does not refer to the middle class as you and I would commonly use the term.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:44 AM on January 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
Go look at the kid glove treatment the Cliven Bundy rebels were/are given to see this. The government doesn't mind right-wing protestors until they commit violence. Lefties are smashed early and smashed hard even if they refuse violence.
Anti-austerity cheerleaders can only cheer avoiding the central question
The central point is that austerity does not work and only creates even worse economic outcomes, that it amounts to a starving carpenter selling his tools to buy food and becoming soon both unable to afford food and unable to be hired to earn money to buy food.
Surely the bourgeoisie are not the ruling elites, but the metropolitan middle class (in the old-fashioned sense) who profit from being in the right place, but are nowhere near the peak of the pyramid...
The bourgeoisie are the capitalist class who control capital and through it the state and society. Call them the ruling elite if you prefer, but the literal "middle class" definition does not refer to the middle class as you and I would commonly use the term.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:44 AM on January 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
Surely the bourgeoisie are not the ruling elites, but the metropolitan middle class (in the old-fashioned sense) who profit from being in the right place, but are nowhere near the peak of the pyramid...
unfortunately, people on the left tend to have forgotten the intellectual basis behind left discussions of class. it's not about having a funny accent, or outlining the sociology of the power hierarchy but distinguishing between classes of people through their qualitative relationship to capital particularly ownership of the means of production.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
unfortunately, people on the left tend to have forgotten the intellectual basis behind left discussions of class. it's not about having a funny accent, or outlining the sociology of the power hierarchy but distinguishing between classes of people through their qualitative relationship to capital particularly ownership of the means of production.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
Perhaps this should be reposted with a different pull quote.
I'd endorse this. As it stands, Syriza isn't even above the fold - it gives the impression that the entire article/post is about that.
posted by corb at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd endorse this. As it stands, Syriza isn't even above the fold - it gives the impression that the entire article/post is about that.
posted by corb at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a lot of talk about "expelling" or "kicking out" Greece from the Eurozone. But there doesn't seem to be any very plausible mechanism for doing that, apart from "creating some new community minus the state others want to exclude". Even that wouldn't necessarily work. Nations have just decided to use a larger country's currency before: Panama and the US dollar for example. Even if the Eurozone voluntarily dissolves itself and creates a brand new Euro2 without Greece, there's nothing to stop Greece just using Euro2 if they want to.
At this point, the advantages of switching to a Drachma seem pretty slight. Yes, it can happen that reducing the value of your currency boosts your exports and tourist trade. The mechanism by which this happens is that it instantly lowers everyone's wages. (Remember that any inputs a business buys from abroad, steel etc, don't suddenly get cheaper.) But Greek wages have already adjusted downwards, to the point where it's already hard for Greek workers to buy things. Yes, five years ago switching to the Drachma and devaluing might have helped Greece. But at this point it's like stamping on the brakes when the car's already upside down in a ditch.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:49 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
At this point, the advantages of switching to a Drachma seem pretty slight. Yes, it can happen that reducing the value of your currency boosts your exports and tourist trade. The mechanism by which this happens is that it instantly lowers everyone's wages. (Remember that any inputs a business buys from abroad, steel etc, don't suddenly get cheaper.) But Greek wages have already adjusted downwards, to the point where it's already hard for Greek workers to buy things. Yes, five years ago switching to the Drachma and devaluing might have helped Greece. But at this point it's like stamping on the brakes when the car's already upside down in a ditch.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:49 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
The male youth of Greece is up in revolt. Anarchy, riots in the street, etc
You know, there are women activists in Greece, some of whom are anarchists and riot in the streets.
And the implication that all these women - whoever they're dating! - are focused immediately on getting married and producing a kid and buying a house, and of course they're thinking of politics primarily in terms of "how will the political situation impact my ability to find a husband"....I just, I am confused. This is not at all anything like the Greek people I have met and talked with.
"I'm not worried about my career or the economy or ethics or my parents; I'm worried about making sure that I date an older, richer man so that regardless of any other consideration he will be able to buy me a house". I'm sure there are people who think like this, but it's not unique to Greece or to hard times, and it certainly doesn't add up to "this is a dewy May-December romance totally about love rather than money".
(Now that I'm forty, I personally am sharply aware of how we overvalue youth and how easy it is for older people to creep on young people - since I, an older queer woman (well, sort of, I am read as a woman in these situations), have the ability to undervalue age-peers and creep on young people, and need to be aware of how I interact with younger folks. This has sharpened my awareness of age inequalities in relationships, not made age inequality seem like something trivial or non-political.)
posted by Frowner at 7:50 AM on January 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
You know, there are women activists in Greece, some of whom are anarchists and riot in the streets.
And the implication that all these women - whoever they're dating! - are focused immediately on getting married and producing a kid and buying a house, and of course they're thinking of politics primarily in terms of "how will the political situation impact my ability to find a husband"....I just, I am confused. This is not at all anything like the Greek people I have met and talked with.
"I'm not worried about my career or the economy or ethics or my parents; I'm worried about making sure that I date an older, richer man so that regardless of any other consideration he will be able to buy me a house". I'm sure there are people who think like this, but it's not unique to Greece or to hard times, and it certainly doesn't add up to "this is a dewy May-December romance totally about love rather than money".
(Now that I'm forty, I personally am sharply aware of how we overvalue youth and how easy it is for older people to creep on young people - since I, an older queer woman (well, sort of, I am read as a woman in these situations), have the ability to undervalue age-peers and creep on young people, and need to be aware of how I interact with younger folks. This has sharpened my awareness of age inequalities in relationships, not made age inequality seem like something trivial or non-political.)
posted by Frowner at 7:50 AM on January 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
Russian fascist Aleksandr Dugin on Syriza:
"In Greece, our partners could eventually be Leftists from SYRIZA, which refuses Atlanticism, liberalism and the domination of the forces of global finance. As far as I know, SYRIZA is anti-capitalist and it is critical of the global oligarchy that has victimized Greece and Cyprus. The case of SYRIZA is interesting because of its far-Left attitude toward the liberal global system. It is a good sign that such non-conformist forces have appeared on the scene. [...]posted by Golden Eternity at 7:52 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are also many other groups and movements with whom we can work. The case of the Golden Dawn (Chrysi Avgi) is interesting because it is part of the growing (and very exciting indeed) reappearance of radical Right parties in the European political landscape. We need to collaborate with all forces, Right or Left, who share our principles".
Le Pen has also been oddly warm towards SYRIZA. I doubt the feeling is mutual, however.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:55 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:55 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The problem Syriza confronts is that servicing the debt requires austerity, but re-defaulting the debt will probably exclude Greece from the capital markets and maybe even kick it out of the Euro, which will lead to more austerity (potentially much more).
That is not the way it works. Defaulting on debt actually improves borrowing ability because suddenly you are debt free. Lenders care about debt burden -- how much of your income you have to pay to service debt each month. If you wipe out debt, you become a better credit risk because your debt burden is reduced.
Argentina in 2001 is a good example. They were in a severe recession with high debt burdens due to corrupt political management, high unemployment, food riots, etc. After they defaulted on their debt in 2001, they quickly recovered and over the next six years became by far the fastest growing economy in South America -- faster than Brazil and faster than Chile. This rapid growth continued until they ran into the world-wide recession in 2008 like everyone else.
For all the morality story talk you hear about default, bankers don't really hold grudges. They are quite practical in realizing that a country with no debt is a much better investment risk than a country with high debt and quickly resume lending. (Don't confuse this with the recent U.S. court interference in the Argentine case. That did not involve bankers but instead vulture hedge funds who bought up defaulted debt after the fact for pennies on the dollar, screwing up the agreed settlements to the dismay of real bankers.)
posted by JackFlash at 8:00 AM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
That is not the way it works. Defaulting on debt actually improves borrowing ability because suddenly you are debt free. Lenders care about debt burden -- how much of your income you have to pay to service debt each month. If you wipe out debt, you become a better credit risk because your debt burden is reduced.
Argentina in 2001 is a good example. They were in a severe recession with high debt burdens due to corrupt political management, high unemployment, food riots, etc. After they defaulted on their debt in 2001, they quickly recovered and over the next six years became by far the fastest growing economy in South America -- faster than Brazil and faster than Chile. This rapid growth continued until they ran into the world-wide recession in 2008 like everyone else.
For all the morality story talk you hear about default, bankers don't really hold grudges. They are quite practical in realizing that a country with no debt is a much better investment risk than a country with high debt and quickly resume lending. (Don't confuse this with the recent U.S. court interference in the Argentine case. That did not involve bankers but instead vulture hedge funds who bought up defaulted debt after the fact for pennies on the dollar, screwing up the agreed settlements to the dismay of real bankers.)
posted by JackFlash at 8:00 AM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
Le Pen has also been oddly warm towards SYRIZA. I doubt the feeling is mutual, however.
They've gone into coalition with the Independent Greeks, so they're clearly happy enough to deal with Le Pen-esque right-wing nationalist types. Very strange bedfellows.
posted by sobarel at 8:07 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
They've gone into coalition with the Independent Greeks, so they're clearly happy enough to deal with Le Pen-esque right-wing nationalist types. Very strange bedfellows.
posted by sobarel at 8:07 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
But there doesn't seem to be any very plausible mechanism for doing that, apart from "creating some new community minus the state others want to exclude".
So in other words the EU could form The Ancient Mystic Society of No Greeces?
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:09 AM on January 26, 2015
So in other words the EU could form The Ancient Mystic Society of No Greeces?
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:09 AM on January 26, 2015
Yeah, it's kind of amusing to see Argentina held up as a cautionary tale, since its unemployment rate at the time of default in 2001 was 25% and rising—exactly where Greece's is today—and has declined steadily since that default to 7.5% today.
posted by enn at 8:12 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by enn at 8:12 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
They've gone into coalition with the Independent Greeks, so they're clearly happy enough to deal with Le Pen-esque right-wing nationalist types. Very strange bedfellows.
Yeah. Maybe SYRIZA's hope is to sideline the Independent Greeks' rightist policies as much as possible, but I can't see the coalition lasting very long if it successfully ends the previous government's austerity policies.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:19 AM on January 26, 2015
Yeah. Maybe SYRIZA's hope is to sideline the Independent Greeks' rightist policies as much as possible, but I can't see the coalition lasting very long if it successfully ends the previous government's austerity policies.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:19 AM on January 26, 2015
The only overlap in their policies is being anti-austerity, so I think it's designed to send a "no retreat" message for the negotiations. There's no hope of this being a long-term government. Unless Tsipras is secretly very concerned about Chemtrails too...
posted by sobarel at 8:24 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sobarel at 8:24 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
>
Yes! Thanks to the inspired heroics of Reagan, instead of having to sit idly by and say "please don't do that" as we did while Communist Russia invaded its neighbors, now we're able to sit idly by and say "please don't do that" while capitalist Russia invades its neighbors!
posted by XMLicious at 8:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [33 favorites]
We're still haunted by the specter of the ghost of the memory of Communism.
That's now, after Reagan vanquished it.
Yes! Thanks to the inspired heroics of Reagan, instead of having to sit idly by and say "please don't do that" as we did while Communist Russia invaded its neighbors, now we're able to sit idly by and say "please don't do that" while capitalist Russia invades its neighbors!
posted by XMLicious at 8:30 AM on January 26, 2015 [33 favorites]
The panic of OMG MARXISM in response to the Syriza victory is a little amusing.
and the irony is that what Syriza is publicly proposing is what should have already been done in the first place, if the Northern Europeans weren't beset by their own internal political contradictions. the policies imposed on Greece had no conventional economic policy basis
Yeah, this weird ideological dynamic where it takes a "Marxist" to be a Keynesian seems to me like the central problem of the current political moment. The Thatcherite perception that "there is no alternative" has taken such deep hold as "common sense" that the policymaking classes basically don't even know how to keep the ship afloat anymore; neoliberal ideology has actually set the "center" so far away from even the mildest rational course correction that no one seems to even know the difference, and it takes a "radical" left victory to even think about doing what the ECB ought to have implemented on its own years ago. And meanwhile the political-ideological gloves come straight off, no matter that it's in response to actually very moderate economic reforms — an Argentina-style default is framed as something so "radical" that it draws this immediate flailing ideological condemnation, from anxious red-baiting to scaremongering about fascism (it's amazing to see the speed with which the panic manifests, even here in this thread). This is a symptom of a few decades of a political-ideological spectrum running from more austerity to slightly less austerity; to the media and the "centrists" at this point, anti-austerity of any kind, as a mere idea, seems earth-shaking. With any luck this is one step toward the end of that common-sense austerity's ascendancy, but it won't go quietly.
posted by RogerB at 8:37 AM on January 26, 2015 [26 favorites]
and the irony is that what Syriza is publicly proposing is what should have already been done in the first place, if the Northern Europeans weren't beset by their own internal political contradictions. the policies imposed on Greece had no conventional economic policy basis
Yeah, this weird ideological dynamic where it takes a "Marxist" to be a Keynesian seems to me like the central problem of the current political moment. The Thatcherite perception that "there is no alternative" has taken such deep hold as "common sense" that the policymaking classes basically don't even know how to keep the ship afloat anymore; neoliberal ideology has actually set the "center" so far away from even the mildest rational course correction that no one seems to even know the difference, and it takes a "radical" left victory to even think about doing what the ECB ought to have implemented on its own years ago. And meanwhile the political-ideological gloves come straight off, no matter that it's in response to actually very moderate economic reforms — an Argentina-style default is framed as something so "radical" that it draws this immediate flailing ideological condemnation, from anxious red-baiting to scaremongering about fascism (it's amazing to see the speed with which the panic manifests, even here in this thread). This is a symptom of a few decades of a political-ideological spectrum running from more austerity to slightly less austerity; to the media and the "centrists" at this point, anti-austerity of any kind, as a mere idea, seems earth-shaking. With any luck this is one step toward the end of that common-sense austerity's ascendancy, but it won't go quietly.
posted by RogerB at 8:37 AM on January 26, 2015 [26 favorites]
urgh, morality police much?
Yeah, this is kind of a little awful, as is the idea that older men out with younger women are flaunting their power.
As a man closing in on 50 I'd like to be disturbed by this but I don't have a convertible.
posted by srboisvert at 8:43 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this is kind of a little awful, as is the idea that older men out with younger women are flaunting their power.
As a man closing in on 50 I'd like to be disturbed by this but I don't have a convertible.
posted by srboisvert at 8:43 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
What is to prevent the Bank of Greece from simply printing Euros against the will of the ECB? All EU national banks have mints for producing their country's euros -- what are the legal and physical obstacles to a Syriza government simply marching into the bank and printing 100 billion euros?
posted by crazy with stars at 8:46 AM on January 26, 2015
posted by crazy with stars at 8:46 AM on January 26, 2015
Legally I dunno. Physically probably Angela Merkel in a berserker rage.
posted by sobarel at 8:59 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by sobarel at 8:59 AM on January 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
Here is what Tsipras said in an interview in the Washington Monthly last year:
"Back in 1953, under the London Debt Agreement, America asked European countries, including Greece, to agree to write off 60 percent of Germany’s debts from World War II and to put a moratorium on debt repayments. That was accepted as a solution. What we are asking from Germany is basically the same."
From the Wikipedia entry on the London Debt Agreement: "An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction."
posted by JackFlash at 8:59 AM on January 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
"Back in 1953, under the London Debt Agreement, America asked European countries, including Greece, to agree to write off 60 percent of Germany’s debts from World War II and to put a moratorium on debt repayments. That was accepted as a solution. What we are asking from Germany is basically the same."
From the Wikipedia entry on the London Debt Agreement: "An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction."
posted by JackFlash at 8:59 AM on January 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
What is to prevent the Bank of Greece from simply printing Euros against the will of the ECB? All EU national banks have mints for producing their country's euros -- what are the legal and physical obstacles to a Syriza government simply marching into the bank and printing 100 billion euros?
If those using such notes outside of Greece were threatened with arrest the notes would soon become limited to Greece and have a lower worth. It would effectively be a new currency, but one without central bank support.
posted by Thing at 9:02 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
If those using such notes outside of Greece were threatened with arrest the notes would soon become limited to Greece and have a lower worth. It would effectively be a new currency, but one without central bank support.
posted by Thing at 9:02 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this weird ideological dynamic where it takes a "Marxist" to be a Keynesian seems to me like the central problem of the current political moment.
I think it's not that it takes a Marxist to be a Keynesian - but that even Keynes was more focused on practicalities than moralities, so people who talk in moral terms about Keynes tend to get labeled Marxists.
posted by corb at 9:03 AM on January 26, 2015
I think it's not that it takes a Marxist to be a Keynesian - but that even Keynes was more focused on practicalities than moralities, so people who talk in moral terms about Keynes tend to get labeled Marxists.
posted by corb at 9:03 AM on January 26, 2015
“The Prospects and Consequences of a Possible Syriza Government,” Economist's View, 23 January 2015
Jamie Galbraith [is] interviewed by Roger Strassburg on the upcoming Greek election and the prospects and consequences of a possible Syriza governmentposted by ob1quixote at 9:06 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
They've gone into coalition with the Independent Greeks, so they're clearly happy enough to deal with Le Pen-esque right-wing nationalist types
Can Le Pen and the Independent Greeks really be equated? This is a sincere question; I really don't know anything about the IGs and didn't even know they existed until yesterday.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:27 AM on January 26, 2015
Can Le Pen and the Independent Greeks really be equated? This is a sincere question; I really don't know anything about the IGs and didn't even know they existed until yesterday.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:27 AM on January 26, 2015
Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory: Anti-austerity cheerleaders can only cheer avoiding the central questionSince the central research behind "austerity measures" has been utterly and thoroughly debunked - based on a single, badly-run study which in turned was misled by (or via, intentionally?) incorrect Excel code, "anti-austerity cheerleaders" cannot be less truth-avoiding than pro-austerity cheerleaders.
Lacking scientific backing, "austerity" is little more than a dogwhistle for "punishing the poor for their malfeasance".
Ideological solutions to economic issues are rarely good ideas. Even your favorite one, or mine.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:33 AM on January 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Can Le Pen and the Independent Greeks really be equated?
Not precisely. But they're anti-immigration, aggressively nationalistic, anti-gay marriage, and very pro-Orthodox Christianity. Panos Kammenos has also been accused of anti-semitism, and has a bit of a line in believing conspiracy theories and suggesting Germany wants a Fourth Reich (the previous ones having gone so well).
posted by sobarel at 9:37 AM on January 26, 2015
Not precisely. But they're anti-immigration, aggressively nationalistic, anti-gay marriage, and very pro-Orthodox Christianity. Panos Kammenos has also been accused of anti-semitism, and has a bit of a line in believing conspiracy theories and suggesting Germany wants a Fourth Reich (the previous ones having gone so well).
posted by sobarel at 9:37 AM on January 26, 2015
Quote from interview with Jamie Galbraith linked by ob1quixote:
Then one has to ask, was there a bona fide program for economic recovery in the first place? And I think it's clear that even if those who argued for this program believed it might produce recovery and growth, these objectives were very secondary or even tertiary considerations in their minds. It is clear that the policies that were specified as a condition were at bottom not recuperative, but punitive in character. Punitive in character against the whole Greek nation, and on an improper principle of collective responsibility for the admitted mismanagement of the affairs of the Greek state by previous governments and by the Greek political class.
posted by just another scurvy brother at 9:39 AM on January 26, 2015
Then one has to ask, was there a bona fide program for economic recovery in the first place? And I think it's clear that even if those who argued for this program believed it might produce recovery and growth, these objectives were very secondary or even tertiary considerations in their minds. It is clear that the policies that were specified as a condition were at bottom not recuperative, but punitive in character. Punitive in character against the whole Greek nation, and on an improper principle of collective responsibility for the admitted mismanagement of the affairs of the Greek state by previous governments and by the Greek political class.
posted by just another scurvy brother at 9:39 AM on January 26, 2015
I've never stopped being surprised at how few Americans in or out of the left understand [how fear of Communist infiltration affected US Government policy towards the Civil Rights movement].
Read the average US high school history textbook and it would not be surprising in the slightest. Hell, I don't even REMEMBER covering the Civil Rights movement when I was in high school - it was pretty much "a week on Columbus and the pilgrims, then the Revolutionary War, then Louisiana Purchase, Westward Expansion, Civil War, Indian Battles, Gold Rush, World War I, Great Depression, World War II, Vietnam, Hey We Went To The Moon, Then Oh Yeah Here's Another Couple Things That Happened Which You Can Go Look Up The End."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:41 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
Read the average US high school history textbook and it would not be surprising in the slightest. Hell, I don't even REMEMBER covering the Civil Rights movement when I was in high school - it was pretty much "a week on Columbus and the pilgrims, then the Revolutionary War, then Louisiana Purchase, Westward Expansion, Civil War, Indian Battles, Gold Rush, World War I, Great Depression, World War II, Vietnam, Hey We Went To The Moon, Then Oh Yeah Here's Another Couple Things That Happened Which You Can Go Look Up The End."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:41 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yanis Varoufakis to be finance minister?!
posted by RogerB at 9:42 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by RogerB at 9:42 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder about the symbolic importance of Greece - it's this country on the periphery of Europe, it's small, it hasn't been rich in a very, very long time, it has some symbolic weight because of its ancient history, it's weak in international terms, it's sort of halfway between Western Europe and the middle east. It's striking that it has such giant weight in international terms - the British backing the right in the civil war, for instance, and the incredibly punishing austerity regime recently, plus this election freak-out. Out of all proportion to what Greece can actually do, it seems like, even if you consider international shipping stuff. And the Syriza victory is exciting, certainly, but it's not exactly Moscow in 1917.
Part of is, I suppose, that Greece must be put down pour descourager les autres, but it also seems like there's this particular hatred of Greece qua Greece.
posted by Frowner at 9:42 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Part of is, I suppose, that Greece must be put down pour descourager les autres, but it also seems like there's this particular hatred of Greece qua Greece.
posted by Frowner at 9:42 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
In his monthly Global Capitalism video from a couple of weeks ago, Professor Richard Wolff gave some background on the situation in Greece leading up to these elections.
posted by bstreep at 9:43 AM on January 26, 2015
posted by bstreep at 9:43 AM on January 26, 2015
acb: That's now, after Reagan vanquished it.You're arguing with Reagan slash-fiction? Tell me you didn't type that with a straight face. Please tell me I'm missing your sarcasm.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:44 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
crazy with stars: What is to prevent the Bank of Greece from simply printing Euros against the will of the ECB? All EU national banks have mints for producing their country's euros -- what are the legal and physical obstacles to a Syriza government simply marching into the bank and printing 100 billion euros?Dunno for sure, but I'll bet the ECB had the foresight to make forgery of Euro notes a crime - and a bank minting Euros without permission from the EDB is forgery, just as surely as if the head of the Denver mint ran a couple dozen "extra" sheets of $100's.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:48 AM on January 26, 2015
It's striking that it has such giant weight in international terms - the British backing the right in the civil war, for instance, and the incredibly punishing austerity regime recently, plus this election freak-out.
Is Greece not part of the EU, and thus if it tanks, does it not bring the rest of Europe down with it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:55 AM on January 26, 2015
Is Greece not part of the EU, and thus if it tanks, does it not bring the rest of Europe down with it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:55 AM on January 26, 2015
It's a bizarre argument in the quoted text. I don't know what kind of ad-driven fantasy the writer dreams that sees only young attractive hip couples in posh restaurants as a sign of a healthy economy, but it's awful ageist. Don't older age-appropriate couples eat? One would think a diversity of ages dining in restaurants would signal a healthier economy and society. Then there are the oligarchs. Aren't oligarchs by definition a small fraction of the population? Don't know if I've ever recognized an oligarch when walking the streets of Toronto. If the boulevards of Athens are full of oligarchs flaunting their oligarchness, it must be good in some way for the local economy. It reads as if the youth are revolting because "they're stealing our women". Which, even if a real observable dynamic, would be a troubling and backward call to arms.
posted by TimTypeZed at 9:57 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TimTypeZed at 9:57 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Panos Kammenos has also been accused of anti-semitism
He claimed that Jews don't pay taxes, unlike proper Christians like himself. It may have been just co-incidental that he did that just after an attack on the Israeli embassy in Athens, but the statement speaks for itself, I think.
I'll bet the ECB had the foresight to make forgery of Euro notes a crime
It's not just unlawful, it's also a copyright violation.
posted by effbot at 10:00 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
He claimed that Jews don't pay taxes, unlike proper Christians like himself. It may have been just co-incidental that he did that just after an attack on the Israeli embassy in Athens, but the statement speaks for itself, I think.
I'll bet the ECB had the foresight to make forgery of Euro notes a crime
It's not just unlawful, it's also a copyright violation.
posted by effbot at 10:00 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
IAmBroom: You're arguing with Reagan slash-fiction? Tell me you didn't type that with a straight face. Please tell me I'm missing your sarcasm.
I can't believe I get to link to this for the second time this month.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
I can't believe I get to link to this for the second time this month.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yanis Varoufakis to be finance minister?!
Maybe if the Greeks give the Germans some nice hats, they'll stop asking for their money back.
posted by longdaysjourney at 10:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe if the Greeks give the Germans some nice hats, they'll stop asking for their money back.
posted by longdaysjourney at 10:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
It is clear that the policies that were specified as a condition were at bottom not recuperative, but punitive in character.
It is not just punitive, per se, although that is certainly one element used to whip up the German populace. Rather it is long term neo-liberal dream of rolling back all social welfare programs, unions, worker protections, etc. This is a neo-liberal policy even during good times and the current opportunity is simply letting no crisis go to waste. The present economic crisis is just an excuse for doing what they have always wanted to do. Restructuring is polite a euphemism for beating down workers.
posted by JackFlash at 10:07 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
It is not just punitive, per se, although that is certainly one element used to whip up the German populace. Rather it is long term neo-liberal dream of rolling back all social welfare programs, unions, worker protections, etc. This is a neo-liberal policy even during good times and the current opportunity is simply letting no crisis go to waste. The present economic crisis is just an excuse for doing what they have always wanted to do. Restructuring is polite a euphemism for beating down workers.
posted by JackFlash at 10:07 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Part of is, I suppose, that Greece must be put down pour descourager les autres, but it also seems like there's this particular hatred of Greece qua Greece.
Greece must be "put down"?
I guess that also what Tsipras thinks is going on, but....
Please help me out here, but isn't it rather the case that Greece is more or less bankrupt and that they need money to pay their teachers, civil servants, hospital staff, police, etc. etc.?
And there are some lenders who say "well, allrighty, we'll give you money, but you'll need to do something in return. Namely, you need to clean up your act and do this and this and this."
And if Greece says "no way, you can go f*ck yourself, we just want your money, without any promises in return", then NOT giving them the money they need is somehow "putting them down"?
Also, how is "just give us the money - and don't think that we'll ever repay a single Euro" a threat? I suppose if Greece defaults, it would hurt some banks and pension funds in the short term, but haven't all important players already cut their losses and minimized their exposure in Greece?
posted by sour cream at 10:15 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Greece must be "put down"?
I guess that also what Tsipras thinks is going on, but....
Please help me out here, but isn't it rather the case that Greece is more or less bankrupt and that they need money to pay their teachers, civil servants, hospital staff, police, etc. etc.?
And there are some lenders who say "well, allrighty, we'll give you money, but you'll need to do something in return. Namely, you need to clean up your act and do this and this and this."
And if Greece says "no way, you can go f*ck yourself, we just want your money, without any promises in return", then NOT giving them the money they need is somehow "putting them down"?
Also, how is "just give us the money - and don't think that we'll ever repay a single Euro" a threat? I suppose if Greece defaults, it would hurt some banks and pension funds in the short term, but haven't all important players already cut their losses and minimized their exposure in Greece?
posted by sour cream at 10:15 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the Wikipedia entry on the London Debt Agreement: "An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction."
Seems like back in the 40s people knew how to rebuild a completely wrecked economy - see also Japan. Not sure how we lost that.
posted by echo target at 10:17 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Seems like back in the 40s people knew how to rebuild a completely wrecked economy - see also Japan. Not sure how we lost that.
posted by echo target at 10:17 AM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
There were sound geopolitical reasons for rebuilding West Germany and making sure it outperformed the DDR. The UK, despite ostensibly being on the winning side, didn't get such favourable treatment and only completed paying back its war debt to the US in 2006. It's got nothing to do with people being wiser or more humane back then.
posted by sobarel at 10:21 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sobarel at 10:21 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Seems like back in the 40s people knew how to rebuild a completely wrecked economy - see also Japan. Not sure how we lost that.
If I recall correctly, the US wasn't particularly helpful in rebuilding Europe for the first few years after 1945. It was only when they realized that the Soviet Union could not be trusted that they decided to build up the strength of their allies. It's no coincidence that the Marshall Plan happened at the same time as the US and USSR wrangled over Berlin.
posted by Thing at 10:25 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
If I recall correctly, the US wasn't particularly helpful in rebuilding Europe for the first few years after 1945. It was only when they realized that the Soviet Union could not be trusted that they decided to build up the strength of their allies. It's no coincidence that the Marshall Plan happened at the same time as the US and USSR wrangled over Berlin.
posted by Thing at 10:25 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Please help me out here, but isn't it rather the case that Greece is more or less bankrupt and that they need money to pay their teachers, civil servants, hospital staff, police, etc. etc.?
Greece has a "primary surplus" -- at current levels of taxation and spending, they can afford to pay for all their services. It's paying the interest on the past debt that's killing them.
posted by crazy with stars at 10:31 AM on January 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
Greece has a "primary surplus" -- at current levels of taxation and spending, they can afford to pay for all their services. It's paying the interest on the past debt that's killing them.
posted by crazy with stars at 10:31 AM on January 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
instead of having to sit idly by and say "please don't do that" as we did while Communist Russia invaded its neighbors, now we're able to sit idly by and say "please don't do that" while capitalist Russia invades its neighbors!
Lenin didn't succeed in teaching the Russians socialism, but by Jove, he taught them capitalism!
posted by acb at 10:34 AM on January 26, 2015
Lenin didn't succeed in teaching the Russians socialism, but by Jove, he taught them capitalism!
posted by acb at 10:34 AM on January 26, 2015
Here's a useful recent interview with Varoufakis:
Let’s say Syriza wins the elections with a majority. What would be the most important tasks facing a hypothetical finance minister in a Syriza government in the first few months or year?posted by RogerB at 10:35 AM on January 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
There are three things. Firstly, to conduct thorough, tough negotiations with our European partners, the IMF, the European Central Banks in order to revise, radically, the illogicality of our loan agreement with our creditors. Task number one is renegotiation to put it bluntly.
Task number two is to address, somehow, the humanitarian crisis by spending what’s really a small amount of money feeding the hungry, making sure that children don’t have to work by candlelight at night doing their homework and looking after the weakest and more innocent victims of this crisis. That’s the second task: the humanitarian crisis in brief.
And thirdly, to ensure from a fiscal point of view that the revenues of the state do not collapse as a result of some kind of strike by those who have the capacity to pay taxes.
He claimed that Jews don't pay taxes, unlike proper Christians like himself.
Does anybody pay taxes in Greece? I thought that a big part of their problem was that their tax collection system was porous and dysfunctional, and that the culture had a mindset dating back to the days of the Ottoman stationary-bandits, where paying taxes was seen as a mark of the most gormless stupidity, and everybody assumed that it was pretty much their moral imperative to dodge taxes to the best of their ability. Because, you know, none of that money will go on hospitals and roads and such; the government will only piss it up the wall employing politicians' relatives in pointless sinecures and such.
posted by acb at 10:38 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
Does anybody pay taxes in Greece? I thought that a big part of their problem was that their tax collection system was porous and dysfunctional, and that the culture had a mindset dating back to the days of the Ottoman stationary-bandits, where paying taxes was seen as a mark of the most gormless stupidity, and everybody assumed that it was pretty much their moral imperative to dodge taxes to the best of their ability. Because, you know, none of that money will go on hospitals and roads and such; the government will only piss it up the wall employing politicians' relatives in pointless sinecures and such.
posted by acb at 10:38 AM on January 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
And thirdly, to ensure from a fiscal point of view that the revenues of the state do not collapse as a result of some kind of strike by those who have the capacity to pay taxes.
When labour goes on strike, it's a distortion of market forces which must be stopped. When capital goes on strike, it's an inevitable working of market forces which can't be stopped.
posted by clawsoon at 10:39 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
When labour goes on strike, it's a distortion of market forces which must be stopped. When capital goes on strike, it's an inevitable working of market forces which can't be stopped.
posted by clawsoon at 10:39 AM on January 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you read on, his point as I take it is less that (all of) "capital" might go on strike and more that, somewhat bizarrely, it will have to be a left-government goal to keep the kleptocrats and the bankers, i.e. a few radicalized and entrenched but relatively small fractions of capital, from immediately overruling the actual broader interests of capital as a whole (which interests would include political and economic stability, i.e. not sending all of Europe into a full-on depression and Greece into a fascist coup). That this responsibility falls on the left is a weird thing, indisputably, but there we are.
posted by RogerB at 10:48 AM on January 26, 2015
posted by RogerB at 10:48 AM on January 26, 2015
Does anybody pay taxes in Greece?
There are some kinds of taxes Greeks do have to pay, for example, taxes that are tethered to utilities or property ownership. The Greek government has come down very hard on this, not to mention pensions. However, as Krugman pointed out, the GDP of Greece has fallen so much that it's debatable whether or not they are collecting more taxes overall than they were before.
posted by phaedon at 10:52 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are some kinds of taxes Greeks do have to pay, for example, taxes that are tethered to utilities or property ownership. The Greek government has come down very hard on this, not to mention pensions. However, as Krugman pointed out, the GDP of Greece has fallen so much that it's debatable whether or not they are collecting more taxes overall than they were before.
posted by phaedon at 10:52 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
We had to at least try not to look like racist monsters, because the more racist and monstrous we looked, the more traction this gave the Soviets and communism generally in the developing world.
A nice thought, but if that were really the motivation, the US probably could have been more effective at appearing to be non-monsters to the developing world by, you know, actually not being monsters in the developing world.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:53 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
A nice thought, but if that were really the motivation, the US probably could have been more effective at appearing to be non-monsters to the developing world by, you know, actually not being monsters in the developing world.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:53 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
A few whiles back, I found a snarky response to the Greek debt crisis that I think really encapsulates the whole thing. The person was complaining that soon the EU could be faced with a state of permanent bailout for Greece, and implied that Spain and other nations couldn't be far behind. The response was that in the USA we had that already and we called it Mississippi.
Can't find the actual quote.
But I think, snark to the side, it really has a lot of significance. In an economic zone as large as the EU or the USA there are going to be areas that are needed by the wealthy areas but aren't actually that good at producing wealth.
In the USA the mostly liberal urban areas subsidize the mostly conservative areas and our national identity makes the alternative all but unthinkable [1]. But the EU doesn't have that. Other than a few bleeding hearts the people in Germany see no benefit to keeping Greece afloat; there is a benefit of course but it's an abstract one.
I cheered when the EU first came into being, but I'm seriously doubting now that it can really work. This sort of situation, not necessarily with Greece but with any number of other potential debtor nations, is going to come up again and again because in an economic zone as big as the EU it's inevitable that some nations will have problems. If the EU doesn't have the political will and cohesion to basically transfer money and wealth from the richer areas of the EU to the poorer areas of the EU then it must fall apart. Greeks won't put up with starvation.
[1] So far anyway. If the moochers in the red states keep being jackasses and calling their benefactors evil anti-American scum vermin I think eventually the blue states will get a mite tired of the shit talking from the people they're giving welfare to.
posted by sotonohito at 10:58 AM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Can't find the actual quote.
But I think, snark to the side, it really has a lot of significance. In an economic zone as large as the EU or the USA there are going to be areas that are needed by the wealthy areas but aren't actually that good at producing wealth.
In the USA the mostly liberal urban areas subsidize the mostly conservative areas and our national identity makes the alternative all but unthinkable [1]. But the EU doesn't have that. Other than a few bleeding hearts the people in Germany see no benefit to keeping Greece afloat; there is a benefit of course but it's an abstract one.
I cheered when the EU first came into being, but I'm seriously doubting now that it can really work. This sort of situation, not necessarily with Greece but with any number of other potential debtor nations, is going to come up again and again because in an economic zone as big as the EU it's inevitable that some nations will have problems. If the EU doesn't have the political will and cohesion to basically transfer money and wealth from the richer areas of the EU to the poorer areas of the EU then it must fall apart. Greeks won't put up with starvation.
[1] So far anyway. If the moochers in the red states keep being jackasses and calling their benefactors evil anti-American scum vermin I think eventually the blue states will get a mite tired of the shit talking from the people they're giving welfare to.
posted by sotonohito at 10:58 AM on January 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
@Sys Rq, that's the point though. US foreign policy was centered on being utterly evil in the third world for the benefit of American kleptocrats while maintaining a public face of being the shining city on the hill.
It's easier, in the not pissing off kleptocrats sense, to ease up a bit on racism at home than it is to stop supporting business friendly dictators abroad. A government that does that pisses off the Dixiecrats and the KKKers and David Duke, but a political career can survive that. Pissing off Standard Oil, or Dole Fruit, or [insert big business here] is much riskier to various political careers.
So the US engaged in a lot of very dishonest PR about foreign policy, but had to back it with at least some faint shred of reality and relaxing on internal racist politics was the cheapest shred of reality that they had.
posted by sotonohito at 11:03 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's easier, in the not pissing off kleptocrats sense, to ease up a bit on racism at home than it is to stop supporting business friendly dictators abroad. A government that does that pisses off the Dixiecrats and the KKKers and David Duke, but a political career can survive that. Pissing off Standard Oil, or Dole Fruit, or [insert big business here] is much riskier to various political careers.
So the US engaged in a lot of very dishonest PR about foreign policy, but had to back it with at least some faint shred of reality and relaxing on internal racist politics was the cheapest shred of reality that they had.
posted by sotonohito at 11:03 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
A nice thought, but if that were really the motivation, the US probably could have been more effective at appearing to be non-monsters to the developing world by, you know, actually not being monsters in the developing world.
No, it's not a nice thought - it's actually true. LBJ and his advisors, for instance, were well aware of the propaganda traction that the Soviets and their allies made out of racism in the US. This isn't even in dispute - if you look in depth at various state department internal communications, it is spelled out that the Soviets' propaganda is of concern and various examples are given. The US took concrete steps, for example appointing black state department personnel, as part of the effort to counter these perceptions.
I feel like you're assuming that I'm saying the only determinative factor in the US government was "how will we look to the Soviets" - but the issue is "given that the US government was racist and did not, in general, want to extend civil rights protections, how could they triage their actual inclinations with the desire to appear as minimally racist as possible?"
We're talking about a government which underwrote substantial chunks of the modern art movement out of the desire to show the Soviets that we too were modern and had a fancy avant-garde under capitalism - it's only too clear that the propaganda struggle was a big deal and generated material results.
posted by Frowner at 11:04 AM on January 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
At the end of the day, the Greeks were allowed to borrow off the strength of the Euro and there was no mechanism, political or economic, to prevent that from happening. Unregulated exposure to larger economies and larger amounts of credit - basically, entry into the EU - allowed for unprecedented polarization in relation to other European economies, not equalization, as perhaps some people dreamed.
posted by phaedon at 11:07 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by phaedon at 11:07 AM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
It is not just punitive, per se, although that is certainly one element used to whip up the German populace. Rather it is long term neo-liberal dream of rolling back all social welfare programs, unions, worker protections, etc. This is a neo-liberal policy even during good times and the current opportunity is simply letting no crisis go to waste. The present economic crisis is just an excuse for doing what they have always wanted to do. Restructuring is polite a euphemism for beating down workers.
it's not that simple: germany is not the uk or the us. but they do have a policy of suppressing wage increases in Germany to support the German export economy. if the germans had decided to suppress saving in germany and thereby increase demand in the eurozone, led by german consumers, they may have saved both the Eurozone, as it stands, and gained a firm leadership position, much as the US has had since WWII. instead...
posted by ennui.bz at 11:11 AM on January 26, 2015
it's not that simple: germany is not the uk or the us. but they do have a policy of suppressing wage increases in Germany to support the German export economy. if the germans had decided to suppress saving in germany and thereby increase demand in the eurozone, led by german consumers, they may have saved both the Eurozone, as it stands, and gained a firm leadership position, much as the US has had since WWII. instead...
posted by ennui.bz at 11:11 AM on January 26, 2015
sobarel: There were sound geopolitical reasons for rebuilding West Germany and making sure it outperformed the DDR. The UK, despite ostensibly being on the winning side, didn't get such favourable treatment and only completed paying back its war debt to the US in 2006. It's got nothing to do with people being wiser or more humane back then.
Thing: If I recall correctly, the US wasn't particularly helpful in rebuilding Europe for the first few years after 1945. It was only when they realized that the Soviet Union could not be trusted that they decided to build up the strength of their allies. It's no coincidence that the Marshall Plan happened at the same time as the US and USSR wrangled over Berlin.Thanks to both of you for explaining something I've long wondered. The Marshall Plan may have indeed been the most unsordid act in history, but "Let's avoid another world war" just didn't seem like enough to motivate the US, IME. Certainly not today; probably not even for "the greatest generation".
EDIT: It was started in 1948, for those wondering about the timing vs Thing's claim.
posted by IAmBroom at 11:12 AM on January 26, 2015
If the moochers in the red states keep being jackasses and calling their benefactors evil anti-American scum vermin I think eventually the blue states will get a mite tired of the shit talking from the people they're giving welfare to.
Except that, when push comes to shove, the red states have most of the nukes.
posted by acb at 11:19 AM on January 26, 2015
Except that, when push comes to shove, the red states have most of the nukes.
posted by acb at 11:19 AM on January 26, 2015
As Frowner says, the Soviet Union was critical towards the West over race issues from the beginning:
Black and White is a 1932 Soviet animated short film directed by Ivan Ivanov-Vano and Leonid Amalrik.posted by XMLicious at 11:27 AM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Themes
The film addresses issues of racism in the South American sugar industry. Themes of racial injustice, racial violence, working-class solidarity dominate the film. It depicts black men working in a field, walking in chains, sitting behind bars, and being executed in an electric chair. In most scenes, a white authority figure is seen whipping or guarding the men.—
Circus (Russian: Цирк; translit. Tsirk) is a 1936 Soviet melodramatic comedy musical film...
Plot
Orlova plays an American circus artist who, after giving birth to a black baby (played by James Lloydovich Patterson), immediately becomes a victim of racism and is forced to stay in the circus, but finds refuge, love and happiness in the USSR. Her black son is embraced by friendly Soviet people...
I think this whole USSR/US thing is a bit of a distraction. At this point, it doesn't offer much or any insight into what is happening in Greece. More generally, I wish discussions of countries other than the U.S. didn't so frequently become full of strained comparisons to the U.S.
posted by Area Man at 11:35 AM on January 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Area Man at 11:35 AM on January 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Yeah, talking US/USSR relations doesn't seem super relevant to the current situation in Greece.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:39 AM on January 26, 2015
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:39 AM on January 26, 2015
No kidding, they stink on ice! (Seriously, it took this long?)
posted by Captain l'escalier at 1:03 PM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Captain l'escalier at 1:03 PM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
If I recall correctly, the US wasn't particularly helpful in rebuilding Europe for the first few years after 1945.
more helpful than after WWI at least...
The Real Story of How America Became an Economic Superpower
relevant i'd say if you want to understand the politics of austerity, debt repayments and monetary regimes (in a geopolitical context) all three of which greece is facing.
Seems like back in the 40s people knew how to rebuild a completely wrecked economy - see also Japan.
or take a page from labour's 1945 UK general election campaign!
Jamie Galbraith [is] interviewed by Roger Strassburg on the upcoming Greek election and the prospects and consequences of a possible Syriza government.
"I've been a colleague for the last couple of years of Yanis Varoufakis, who is now running for parliament in Athens at the moment on the Syriza ticket. He was preselected by Syriza for what is the largest multi-seat constituency."
-Greece election: Syriza's Yanis Varoufakis
-Yanis Varoufakis: Greece's future finance minister is no extremist
[so it sounds like they're going to try and make 'structural reforms' under the troika less punitive and more rehabilitative (and effective)]
he also was (still is?) valve's chief economist + there was a great interview with him on naked capitalism a while ago too btw :P
oh and speaking of the financial/economic 'priesthood' here's barry eichengreen on the hall of mirrors.
and re: saner 'fringe' parties taking on the lunatic centre, podemos has a shot in spain for their snap regional elections and the UK general election is coming up in may with the greens being courted to form a gov't.
barring a revolution in Euro finance
The Swiss National Bank Means Business with Its Negative Rates (which may be the central bank equivalent of discovering imaginary numbers or something ;)
also btw, re: charging banks...
propping up failed banks and maintaining pressure on their own leftist opposition to depress wages. now europe is in deflation and if the european economy starts to contract vigorously again, I'm sure it will be because of the instability and lack of confidence engendered by irresponsible leftists groups
i like how krugman reframes it as the 'elite delusions of supposedly hardheaded officials engaged in fantasy economics'.
The US government responses to the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement and labor organizing generally were always steered by the fear that the Soviets would exploit anything too egregious.
and imperial japan too!?
older men out with younger women are flaunting their power
Where the Sugar Babies Are: "young women across the country are turning to sugar daddies in droves. Many of them use SeekingArrangement..."
posted by kliuless at 1:12 PM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
more helpful than after WWI at least...
The Real Story of How America Became an Economic Superpower
relevant i'd say if you want to understand the politics of austerity, debt repayments and monetary regimes (in a geopolitical context) all three of which greece is facing.
Seems like back in the 40s people knew how to rebuild a completely wrecked economy - see also Japan.
or take a page from labour's 1945 UK general election campaign!
Jamie Galbraith [is] interviewed by Roger Strassburg on the upcoming Greek election and the prospects and consequences of a possible Syriza government.
"I've been a colleague for the last couple of years of Yanis Varoufakis, who is now running for parliament in Athens at the moment on the Syriza ticket. He was preselected by Syriza for what is the largest multi-seat constituency."
-Greece election: Syriza's Yanis Varoufakis
-Yanis Varoufakis: Greece's future finance minister is no extremist
[so it sounds like they're going to try and make 'structural reforms' under the troika less punitive and more rehabilitative (and effective)]
he also was (still is?) valve's chief economist + there was a great interview with him on naked capitalism a while ago too btw :P
oh and speaking of the financial/economic 'priesthood' here's barry eichengreen on the hall of mirrors.
and re: saner 'fringe' parties taking on the lunatic centre, podemos has a shot in spain for their snap regional elections and the UK general election is coming up in may with the greens being courted to form a gov't.
barring a revolution in Euro finance
The Swiss National Bank Means Business with Its Negative Rates (which may be the central bank equivalent of discovering imaginary numbers or something ;)
also btw, re: charging banks...
propping up failed banks and maintaining pressure on their own leftist opposition to depress wages. now europe is in deflation and if the european economy starts to contract vigorously again, I'm sure it will be because of the instability and lack of confidence engendered by irresponsible leftists groups
i like how krugman reframes it as the 'elite delusions of supposedly hardheaded officials engaged in fantasy economics'.
The US government responses to the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement and labor organizing generally were always steered by the fear that the Soviets would exploit anything too egregious.
and imperial japan too!?
older men out with younger women are flaunting their power
Where the Sugar Babies Are: "young women across the country are turning to sugar daddies in droves. Many of them use SeekingArrangement..."
posted by kliuless at 1:12 PM on January 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
urgh, morality police much?
Yeah, this is kind of a little awful, as is the idea that older men out with younger women are flaunting their power.
Yeah, I understand the shorthand going on, but as the son of a couple with a big age difference between them (with the younger one being an accomplished professional and breadwinner for most of the length of the marriage) it gets on my nerves.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:28 PM on January 26, 2015
Yeah, this is kind of a little awful, as is the idea that older men out with younger women are flaunting their power.
Yeah, I understand the shorthand going on, but as the son of a couple with a big age difference between them (with the younger one being an accomplished professional and breadwinner for most of the length of the marriage) it gets on my nerves.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:28 PM on January 26, 2015
I feel like you're assuming that I'm saying the only determinative factor in the US government was "how will we look to the Soviets"
No, I'm "assuming" the thing you said: "We had to at least try not to look like racist monsters, because the more racist and monstrous we looked, the more traction this gave the Soviets and communism generally in the developing world." Not "how will we look to the Soviets"; how the US will look to the developing world. That is what you said, and that is what I disagree with.
You know what really gave Communism traction in the developing world? Popular opposition to the mass-murdering authoritarian juntas installed by the CIA.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:33 PM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, I'm "assuming" the thing you said: "We had to at least try not to look like racist monsters, because the more racist and monstrous we looked, the more traction this gave the Soviets and communism generally in the developing world." Not "how will we look to the Soviets"; how the US will look to the developing world. That is what you said, and that is what I disagree with.
You know what really gave Communism traction in the developing world? Popular opposition to the mass-murdering authoritarian juntas installed by the CIA.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:33 PM on January 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
You know what really gave Communism traction in the developing world? Popular opposition to the mass-murdering authoritarian juntas installed by the CIA.
Yabbut we are totally talking at cross purposes here, and I am really confused about why. None of this has anything to do with what gave communism traction among people outside the US state department; none of this has anything to do with the US really, truly not wanting to be racist; none of this has anything to do with actual communist victories, because we're talking about what people in the US State Department and the upper echelons of power believed and tried to do and not about what was actually going on in the developing world. What was being asserted upthread was that the US government modulated certain of its policies to the left because it was worried about credibility and giving traction to Soviet propaganda. This is well documented. It's not made up. You can look at all kinds of state department records, memoirs, etc. It has nothing to do with what actual communists were doing and everything to do with signals that the state department wanted to send. This has nothing to do with how those signals were received or the effect they had.
Because I am so confused by this cross-purposes business - if this is stemming from some kind of "I know that Frowner is an anarchist and therefore anything they say about communism must come from a place of seeking to discredit it"...that's really not where I'm coming from. In this context, I'm very much on the "May God preserve Communism so that the evil brood of its enemies may be prevented from becoming more bare-faced still" end of the spectrum.
posted by Frowner at 2:37 PM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yabbut we are totally talking at cross purposes here, and I am really confused about why. None of this has anything to do with what gave communism traction among people outside the US state department; none of this has anything to do with the US really, truly not wanting to be racist; none of this has anything to do with actual communist victories, because we're talking about what people in the US State Department and the upper echelons of power believed and tried to do and not about what was actually going on in the developing world. What was being asserted upthread was that the US government modulated certain of its policies to the left because it was worried about credibility and giving traction to Soviet propaganda. This is well documented. It's not made up. You can look at all kinds of state department records, memoirs, etc. It has nothing to do with what actual communists were doing and everything to do with signals that the state department wanted to send. This has nothing to do with how those signals were received or the effect they had.
Because I am so confused by this cross-purposes business - if this is stemming from some kind of "I know that Frowner is an anarchist and therefore anything they say about communism must come from a place of seeking to discredit it"...that's really not where I'm coming from. In this context, I'm very much on the "May God preserve Communism so that the evil brood of its enemies may be prevented from becoming more bare-faced still" end of the spectrum.
posted by Frowner at 2:37 PM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
And just to clarify - "modulated certain of its policies to the left" doesn't mean "became left"; it means "were less right-wing than they would have liked to be".
posted by Frowner at 2:39 PM on January 26, 2015
posted by Frowner at 2:39 PM on January 26, 2015
if this is stemming from some kind of "I know that Frowner is [...]"
It's not. I don't know if I've ever even noticed you before.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:04 PM on January 26, 2015
It's not. I don't know if I've ever even noticed you before.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:04 PM on January 26, 2015
A couple of pre-election interviews with Green economist Yanis Varoufakis:
WNUR's This is Hell (Jan 17 2015) [Soundcloud link]
Taking stock of the Euro Crisis: Doug Henwood's Behind the News interview (Nov 2014) [Interview begins around 6:50]
posted by Auden at 3:47 PM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
WNUR's This is Hell (Jan 17 2015) [Soundcloud link]
Taking stock of the Euro Crisis: Doug Henwood's Behind the News interview (Nov 2014) [Interview begins around 6:50]
posted by Auden at 3:47 PM on January 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
My new word of the day: opprobrium.
I'll probably never be able to use it.
posted by Fleeno at 5:07 PM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'll probably never be able to use it.
posted by Fleeno at 5:07 PM on January 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Tsipras was sworn in today in a civil (not Greek Orthodox) ceremony. His first act was to visit a Greek War Memorial.
Moar Jacobin: After Syriza’s Victory, Confrontation or Capitulation
More analysis on some random leftist blog.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:10 PM on January 26, 2015
Moar Jacobin: After Syriza’s Victory, Confrontation or Capitulation
More analysis on some random leftist blog.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:10 PM on January 26, 2015
Tsipras was sworn in today in a civil (not Greek Orthodox) ceremony.
But did visit the archbishop immediately before, and asked him to "pray for us" - a very fitting image of the balancing act that needs to follow if he's going to get anywhere.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:01 AM on January 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
But did visit the archbishop immediately before, and asked him to "pray for us" - a very fitting image of the balancing act that needs to follow if he's going to get anywhere.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:01 AM on January 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I suppose the U.S. needs Mississippi and Louisiana for shipping, sotonohito, but they don't exactly need say Alabama. Why on earth would the E.U. need Greece? Just because Greece's departure means some E.U. banks take a hit? So what?
There is a political calculation that European politicians must do : If Greece leaves then either my banker friends lose their bonuses, or else I must look bad to pay them their bonuses with taxpayer money. If we give Syriza too much, then political competitors rightly accuse me of giving corrupt Greece yet more money to inflate my banker friends lose bonuses. It's all ultimately about winning reelection while helping their banker friends rob their own tax payers.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:53 AM on January 27, 2015
There is a political calculation that European politicians must do : If Greece leaves then either my banker friends lose their bonuses, or else I must look bad to pay them their bonuses with taxpayer money. If we give Syriza too much, then political competitors rightly accuse me of giving corrupt Greece yet more money to inflate my banker friends lose bonuses. It's all ultimately about winning reelection while helping their banker friends rob their own tax payers.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:53 AM on January 27, 2015
Isn't the issue that if Greece leaves the Euro, people start to wonder if Spain might be next? That the Greek exit makes the whole currency union seem weaker and leads to a selloff of Euros and a certain amount of panic in the financial markets which then impacts the real economy? (Not sure how much risk there is of this scenario, but it is what I've heard.)
posted by Area Man at 5:36 AM on January 27, 2015
posted by Area Man at 5:36 AM on January 27, 2015
I suppose the U.S. needs Mississippi and Louisiana for shipping, sotonohito, but they don't exactly need say Alabama. Why on earth would the E.U. need Greece? Just because Greece's departure means some E.U. banks take a hit? So what?
I think it's a little bit like saying: "Why did Wall Street need Lehman Brothers?" Someone obviously decided that LB were too small to have an impact... and the results were disastrous.
But of course, the negotiations about to begin depend crucially on managing just this question. If someone can convince Merkel et al that a Greek exit would have minor consequences than they will refuse to compromise with Tspiras... and perhaps force an exit. Likewise, if Syriza is convinced that the Germans are afraid of an exit...
So it's actually kind of impossible to talk about what this all means in the popular media because the political feedback loop is too strong.
Also, I wish Krugman would talk more about the consequences of the "American Monetary Union." His standard answer is that people in Alabama or Ole Miss can just move... with little (compared to the EU) barriers for internal migration within the US. But, it seems strange to have an economic theory which says that it is economically efficient for whole geographic regions to be economic wastelands...
posted by ennui.bz at 8:59 AM on January 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's a little bit like saying: "Why did Wall Street need Lehman Brothers?" Someone obviously decided that LB were too small to have an impact... and the results were disastrous.
But of course, the negotiations about to begin depend crucially on managing just this question. If someone can convince Merkel et al that a Greek exit would have minor consequences than they will refuse to compromise with Tspiras... and perhaps force an exit. Likewise, if Syriza is convinced that the Germans are afraid of an exit...
So it's actually kind of impossible to talk about what this all means in the popular media because the political feedback loop is too strong.
Also, I wish Krugman would talk more about the consequences of the "American Monetary Union." His standard answer is that people in Alabama or Ole Miss can just move... with little (compared to the EU) barriers for internal migration within the US. But, it seems strange to have an economic theory which says that it is economically efficient for whole geographic regions to be economic wastelands...
posted by ennui.bz at 8:59 AM on January 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
he also was (still is?) valve's chief economist
Out: The Euro
In: Hats!
posted by empath at 10:02 AM on January 27, 2015
Out: The Euro
In: Hats!
posted by empath at 10:02 AM on January 27, 2015
Greece’s new finance minister learned about tearing down capitalism from working at a video game company
-Varoufakis on Valve, Spontaneous Order, and the European Crisis: "Yanis Varoufakis of the University of Athens, the University of Texas, and former economist-in-residence at Valve Software talks with EconTalk host Russ Roberts about the unusual structure of the workplace at Valve. Valve, a software company that creates online video games, has no hierarchy or bosses. Teams of software designers join spontaneously to create and ship video games without any top-down supervision. Varoufakis discusses the economics of this Hayekian workplace and how it actually functions alongside Steam--an open gaming platform created by Valve. The conversation concludes with a discussion of the economic crisis in Europe." (/em added ;)
also btw...
corporate governance at davos! [1,2,3]
posted by kliuless at 11:33 AM on January 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
While European institutions weren’t interested in his arguments for a reduction in Greece’s debt load and a more unified EU at the time, someone else was listening—Gabe Newell, the co-founder of multi-billion dollar video game maker Valve. Many of Valve’s games have internal economies for buying and selling in-game items, and these economies had become linked through Steam, an application gamers used to barter virtual goods and buy products from Valve. “Here at my company we were discussing an issue of linking economies in two virtual environments,” Newell wrote, “when it occurred to me, ‘This is Germany and Greece.'”-Valve's Hat-Based Economy Now Has Its Own Hat-Based Economist
“If you think of these as the social community of one game as one economy, Steam is a little bit like an international system that binds together different economies, just like the foreign exchange market does,” Varoufakis told me in 2012 for an article in Tomorrow magazine.
-Varoufakis on Valve, Spontaneous Order, and the European Crisis: "Yanis Varoufakis of the University of Athens, the University of Texas, and former economist-in-residence at Valve Software talks with EconTalk host Russ Roberts about the unusual structure of the workplace at Valve. Valve, a software company that creates online video games, has no hierarchy or bosses. Teams of software designers join spontaneously to create and ship video games without any top-down supervision. Varoufakis discusses the economics of this Hayekian workplace and how it actually functions alongside Steam--an open gaming platform created by Valve. The conversation concludes with a discussion of the economic crisis in Europe." (/em added ;)
also btw...
corporate governance at davos! [1,2,3]
posted by kliuless at 11:33 AM on January 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Meet the new Greek government
Greek PM Alexis Tsipras unveils cabinet of mavericks and visionaries
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:23 PM on January 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Greek PM Alexis Tsipras unveils cabinet of mavericks and visionaries
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:23 PM on January 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
British university that helped make the running in Greece: Syriza’s Essex connection
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:10 AM on January 28, 2015
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:10 AM on January 28, 2015
Appears the Valve connection is overblown, although obviously he learned from Valve's flat management style.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:36 AM on January 28, 2015
posted by jeffburdges at 3:36 AM on January 28, 2015
Anti-Syriza Propaganda Begins: Greece Framed as ‘Emerging Hub for Terrorists’
posted by jeffburdges at 5:22 AM on January 28, 2015
posted by jeffburdges at 5:22 AM on January 28, 2015
Anti-Syriza Propaganda Begins: Greece Framed as ‘Emerging Hub for Terrorists’
Oh, but that's just US TV, isn't it? In this case CNN (or some website rehashing what they saw on CNN).
Wasn't it FOX News that actually thinks that large swaths of Europe, such as Birmingham of all places, are under control of Islamists?
Never mind the US "news networks". They are just a big stupidification machine and don't know what they're talking about.
posted by sour cream at 6:27 AM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, but that's just US TV, isn't it? In this case CNN (or some website rehashing what they saw on CNN).
Wasn't it FOX News that actually thinks that large swaths of Europe, such as Birmingham of all places, are under control of Islamists?
Never mind the US "news networks". They are just a big stupidification machine and don't know what they're talking about.
posted by sour cream at 6:27 AM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
he also was (still is?) valve's chief economist
Now if they'd just hire someone from Bioware, I could move there and cash in on all my pairs of torn trousers.
posted by homunculus at 1:53 PM on January 28, 2015
Now if they'd just hire someone from Bioware, I could move there and cash in on all my pairs of torn trousers.
posted by homunculus at 1:53 PM on January 28, 2015
jeffburdges: I suppose the U.S. needs Mississippi and Louisiana for shipping, sotonohito, but they don't exactly need say Alabama.
::defensive Alabama native voice:: actually the Port of Mobile is a major Gulf of Mexico shipping center ranked higher (13th nationally) than any of the ports in Mississippi (17th, 84th, 102nd nationally) but carry on
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 2:16 PM on January 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
::defensive Alabama native voice:: actually the Port of Mobile is a major Gulf of Mexico shipping center ranked higher (13th nationally) than any of the ports in Mississippi (17th, 84th, 102nd nationally) but carry on
posted by cobra_high_tigers at 2:16 PM on January 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sort of in line with what Frowner is saying: Eurozone fears a deal with Tsipras more than Grexit
Nobody really believes Grexit is imminent. The European Central Bank is poised to launch a major round of sovereign bond buying. Commercial banks have been recapitalised. And Greece, despite all its continued troubles, is nearly self-sufficient. It has run a primary budget surplus (before interest payments) for more than a year. It returned to the private capital markets last year and its economy started to grow after six years of recession.
The fearmongering this time is based on a different fear: that Mr Tsipras may usher in months of political uncertainty highlighting to markets that the eurozone is still weighed down by high debt, weak growth and political instability despite five years of efforts to clean up the mess.
At the core of Mr Tsipras’s economic platform is debt relief, an idea so unthinkable that nearly every mainstream economist has advocated it. With the collective amnesia that occasionally befalls the EU, it is easy to forget that in November 2012, eurozone finance ministers actually committed to granting Athens additional debt relief once it ran a primary surplus — a promise unfulfilled for more than a year.
Also, I'm not really seeing the suggestion of an actual Paris Club agreement this time around, though there was some talk of it in 2012. (It may be because what Syriza is proposing is in effect a Paris Club restructuring - I'm still catching up on my reading).
posted by triggerfinger at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nobody really believes Grexit is imminent. The European Central Bank is poised to launch a major round of sovereign bond buying. Commercial banks have been recapitalised. And Greece, despite all its continued troubles, is nearly self-sufficient. It has run a primary budget surplus (before interest payments) for more than a year. It returned to the private capital markets last year and its economy started to grow after six years of recession.
The fearmongering this time is based on a different fear: that Mr Tsipras may usher in months of political uncertainty highlighting to markets that the eurozone is still weighed down by high debt, weak growth and political instability despite five years of efforts to clean up the mess.
At the core of Mr Tsipras’s economic platform is debt relief, an idea so unthinkable that nearly every mainstream economist has advocated it. With the collective amnesia that occasionally befalls the EU, it is easy to forget that in November 2012, eurozone finance ministers actually committed to granting Athens additional debt relief once it ran a primary surplus — a promise unfulfilled for more than a year.
Also, I'm not really seeing the suggestion of an actual Paris Club agreement this time around, though there was some talk of it in 2012. (It may be because what Syriza is proposing is in effect a Paris Club restructuring - I'm still catching up on my reading).
posted by triggerfinger at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Woman who radicalised the 'Greek Che Guevara': How publicity-shy first lady helped new PM lead a communist student revolt
Alexis Tsipras begins rolling back Greek austerity policies
A Strategy of Ruptures: Ten Theses on the Greek Future
Ntina Tzouvala: Syriza Wins. Reflections While the Tide is Turning
Stathis Kouvelakis replies on Syriza-ANEL
The tasks for the left after SYRIZA's victory
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:20 PM on January 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Alexis Tsipras begins rolling back Greek austerity policies
A Strategy of Ruptures: Ten Theses on the Greek Future
Ntina Tzouvala: Syriza Wins. Reflections While the Tide is Turning
Stathis Kouvelakis replies on Syriza-ANEL
The tasks for the left after SYRIZA's victory
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:20 PM on January 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
New Greek Government Has Deep, Long-Standing Ties With Russian Eurasianist Dugin
Aleksandr Dugin's Neo-Eurasianism: The New Right à la Russe
Dugin: "Today's Ukranians are a race of degenerates that crawled up from sewage. Genocide is in order."
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:46 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Aleksandr Dugin's Neo-Eurasianism: The New Right à la Russe
Dugin: "Today's Ukranians are a race of degenerates that crawled up from sewage. Genocide is in order."
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:46 PM on January 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
"If Athens’s troika of creditors at the EU, ECB and IMF were in any doubt that Syriza meant business it was crushingly dispelled on Wednesday . With lightning speed, Europe’s first hard-left government moved to dismantle the punishing policies Athens has been forced to enact in return for emergency aid."
Grauniad
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:21 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Grauniad
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:21 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man, as fascinating as it is to watch Greece set itself on fire - in the same way that you can't look away from a trainwreck - I really pity anyone with a citizenship who can't get on the lifeboats out of there.
posted by corb at 3:26 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 3:26 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, word on the street is that Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras is apparently resisting wearing a tie until he’s managed to negotiate a debt restructuring deal.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:40 AM on January 29, 2015
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:40 AM on January 29, 2015
it already was a trainwreck; austerity in greece imposed by the troika is similar to the allies' punitive war reparations on germany after WWI, how did that turn out? "In 1921, the total reparation sum was placed at 132 billion gold marks. However, 'Allied experts knew that Germany could not pay' this sum." fast forward:
or in other words...
Greeks vote to stop having shit kicked out of them
Greece misinterpreted over Russia sanctions: "Greece's new finance minister Yanis Varoufakis rejected suggestions that complaints from Athens over a European Union statement on Ukraine meant it was preparing to veto sanctions against Russia. In a post on his personal blog, Varoufakis said media reports had distorted the position of the new leftist-led government. The complaint made by Athens to EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini had been about a lack of consultation, not about the sanctions themselves, he added."
posted by kliuless at 6:54 AM on January 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
The first proposition is that the Greeks borrowed the money and so are duty bound to pay it back, how ever much it costs them. This was very much the attitude that sustained debtors’ prisons.i doubt it'd lead to 'WWII' (greek war machine?), but as varoufakis pointed out (on this is hell ;) all austerity does is radicalize the population: "The dangerous approach is to push Greece towards default... My guess is that it would also reverse any move towards modernity for a generation."
The truth, however, is that creditors have a moral responsibility to lend wisely. If they fail to do due diligence on their borrowers, they deserve what is going to happen. In the case of Greece, the scale of the external deficits, in particular, were obvious. So, too, was the way the Greek state was run.
The second proposition is that, since the crisis hit, the rest of the eurozone has been extraordinarily generous to Greece. This, too, is false. [IMF loans] went overwhelmingly not to benefiting Greeks but to avoiding the writedown of bad loans to the Greek government and Greek banks. Just 11 per cent of the loans directly financed government activities. Another 16 per cent went on interest payments. The rest went on capital operations of various kinds: the money came in and then flowed out again. A more honest policy would have been to bail lenders out directly. But this would have been too embarrassing.
As the Greeks point out, debt relief is normal. Germany, a serial defaulter on its domestic and external debt in the 20th century, has been a beneficiary. What cannot be paid will not be paid. The idea that the Greeks will run large fiscal surpluses for a generation, to pay back money creditor governments used to rescue private lenders from their folly is a delusion.
or in other words...
Greeks vote to stop having shit kicked out of them
The ruling New Democracy party is still wondering how its platform of Endless Suffering For Everyone was defeated by Syriza’s competing message of Maybe Not That.and yet another way to look at it:
Athens voter Elena Mitropoulos said: “I was going to do the responsible thing and vote for continuing austerity, because I know how important it is not to damage the German economy, but madness overtook me in the polling booth.
“Now we face a future of working hospitals, of recovering industry, of my children not begging for food in the streets. I wish I had not been so rash.”
EU technocrat Denys Finch Hatton said: “There is a very real danger that people across Europe, inspired by the Greeks, will no longer choose to be ruled against their best interests by people they never voted for living in massive wealth hundreds of miles away.
1/ Imagine you owned Greece. Is there any model where you maximize the value of your investment by having 25%+ of population sitting around?lastly, re: russia...
2/ Prior statement applies if (a) you actually own Greece (the Greek people) or (b) have a big claim on Greece (creditors)
3/ It is why when you see super high unemployment rates, a good sign that "you are doing it wrong" -> that is a loss of real world output!
4/ But long-term unemployment crises are even worse. Not only 25% of population not contributing today; skills deteriorating for future
Greece misinterpreted over Russia sanctions: "Greece's new finance minister Yanis Varoufakis rejected suggestions that complaints from Athens over a European Union statement on Ukraine meant it was preparing to veto sanctions against Russia. In a post on his personal blog, Varoufakis said media reports had distorted the position of the new leftist-led government. The complaint made by Athens to EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini had been about a lack of consultation, not about the sanctions themselves, he added."
posted by kliuless at 6:54 AM on January 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
Don't forget that Goldman-Sachs helped Greece subvert their creditors due diligence (NYT). We should make Goldman-Sachs pay out a significant fragment of Greece's debt through fines.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:30 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 7:30 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
The end of Tina (There Is No Alternative)... Greek election results: increased uncertainty, excellent situation
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:51 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:51 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
jeffburdges: We should make Goldman-Sachs pay out a significant fragment of Greece's debt through fines.Which will happen rigbt after Dick "Heartless - No, Really, He Has No Heart!" Cheney begins his sentence for war crimes.
Sadly.
posted by IAmBroom at 8:54 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thanks for the very thorough post, kliuless.
A thought that just hit me: Everyone is aghast at the spending bonanza of Tsipras in his first two days in office, and some say that it's total lunacy.
But maybe he knows full well that what he does can only lead to default. Maybe he even wants default. Looking at it this way, what Tsipras is doing (hiring 10000 additional government officials, lowering taxes, stopping privatization, increasing minimum wage etc. etc.) is totally rational: He wants Greece to default as soon as possible. I think I read somewhere that that is also what his finance minister wants.
posted by sour cream at 9:49 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
A thought that just hit me: Everyone is aghast at the spending bonanza of Tsipras in his first two days in office, and some say that it's total lunacy.
But maybe he knows full well that what he does can only lead to default. Maybe he even wants default. Looking at it this way, what Tsipras is doing (hiring 10000 additional government officials, lowering taxes, stopping privatization, increasing minimum wage etc. etc.) is totally rational: He wants Greece to default as soon as possible. I think I read somewhere that that is also what his finance minister wants.
posted by sour cream at 9:49 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Syriza Can’t Save Greece
Why There’s No Electoral Exit From The Crisis
posted by jeffburdges at 9:54 AM on January 29, 2015
Why There’s No Electoral Exit From The Crisis
posted by jeffburdges at 9:54 AM on January 29, 2015
hiring 10000 additional government officials, lowering taxes, stopping privatization, increasing minimum wage etc. etc.
First of all, this is overstated - nobody is talking about 10000 new hires, they are talking about bringing back about 3500 people who were let go by the previous government, many of whom are still receiving 75% pay until their exit procedure is completed.
On top of that none of that stuff has happened yet (except removing the crowd control barriers around parliament, that is): All of the hubbub has been caused by the new ministers taking up their posts, and proclaiming they intend to honor their pre-election promises - none of it has actually been signed into law yet. If the behavior of almost every elected government ever is anything to go by, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to actually happen.
posted by Dr Dracator at 10:50 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
First of all, this is overstated - nobody is talking about 10000 new hires, they are talking about bringing back about 3500 people who were let go by the previous government, many of whom are still receiving 75% pay until their exit procedure is completed.
On top of that none of that stuff has happened yet (except removing the crowd control barriers around parliament, that is): All of the hubbub has been caused by the new ministers taking up their posts, and proclaiming they intend to honor their pre-election promises - none of it has actually been signed into law yet. If the behavior of almost every elected government ever is anything to go by, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to actually happen.
posted by Dr Dracator at 10:50 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Aleksandr Dugin and Greece’s SYRIZA Connection
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:48 AM on January 29, 2015
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:48 AM on January 29, 2015
EU wins Greek backing to extend Russia sanctions, delays decision on new steps
That seems encouraging.
Greece Sets Up Cash Crunch for March Telling EU It’s Over
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:28 AM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
That seems encouraging.
Greece Sets Up Cash Crunch for March Telling EU It’s Over
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:28 AM on January 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Turkey’s leftists, Kurds celebrate Syriza victory
I find this positive as well. The Left in Turkey actually seems very impressive to me.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:06 AM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I find this positive as well. The Left in Turkey actually seems very impressive to me.
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:06 AM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
“Open letter to the German readers: That which you were never told about Greece,” Alexis Tsipras, 13 January 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 10:33 AM on January 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 10:33 AM on January 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
I certainly hope that the refusal to pretend that austerity is anything resembling productive is a more common feature of the discussion going forward.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:14 AM on January 30, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:14 AM on January 30, 2015
Dijsselbloem [to Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis]: “You just killed Troika”
Turkey’s leftists, Kurds celebrate Syriza victory
"The Barricades Are Down" Syriza Is Already Rolling Back Austerity "Reforms"
Btw, Yanis Varoufakis's twitter feed is pretty awesome: @yanisvaroufakis
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:06 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Turkey’s leftists, Kurds celebrate Syriza victory
"The Barricades Are Down" Syriza Is Already Rolling Back Austerity "Reforms"
Btw, Yanis Varoufakis's twitter feed is pretty awesome: @yanisvaroufakis
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:06 PM on January 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
What are the odds that punitive measures will be taken against Greece to sabotage its recovery? There's a lot of money that would hate to see austerity discredited.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:47 PM on January 30, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:47 PM on January 30, 2015
What are the odds that punitive measures will be taken against Greece to sabotage its recovery?
Which recovery? The one we started seeing last year, mostly driven by that horrible austerity, or the future one that we haven't seen yet?
posted by effbot at 5:49 AM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Which recovery? The one we started seeing last year, mostly driven by that horrible austerity, or the future one that we haven't seen yet?
posted by effbot at 5:49 AM on January 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
BBC Newsnight interview with Yanis Varoufakis
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:20 AM on February 1, 2015
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:20 AM on February 1, 2015
Greece on collision course with Brussels after Merkel backs hardline debt stance
Barricades down, ties off: welcome to Greece’s style revolution
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:32 AM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Barricades down, ties off: welcome to Greece’s style revolution
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:32 AM on February 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
BBC interview with Yanis Varoufakis
Love that guy's look. It's like he'll argue economics calmly and intelligently all night, but if that fails he can just headbutt you.
posted by colie at 10:44 AM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Love that guy's look. It's like he'll argue economics calmly and intelligently all night, but if that fails he can just headbutt you.
posted by colie at 10:44 AM on February 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
@NeinQuarterly: "Tonight on #Tatort, Germany's leading crime drama: The most dangerous man in Europe. He's on the loose."
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:14 AM on February 1, 2015
posted by Golden Eternity at 11:14 AM on February 1, 2015
Much “radical” writing on Greece is painfully simplistic – the Greeks were suffering, therefore they rose up (but, as activists know in practice there is no linear relationship between levels of poverty and levels of resistance – or neoliberalism would long since have collapsed without us having to make an effort and, more trivially, we would have seen comparable levels of struggle in countries like Portugal and Italy). Or, party-building is always and everywhere the thing to do (but the presence of far-left parties, and the latest new coalition, normally fails to have anything like the desired effects – such coalitions often lose votes by comparison with their previously separate components).[…]Laurence Cox and Alf Gunvald Nilsen: First we take Athens, then we take Berlin? Syriza’s victory and the twilight of neoliberalism
[W]hat makes the difference is neither party-building nor simple poverty. It is the disruption of the traditional political cleavage structures that have reliably delivered votes to the same parties despite (for example) social democratic parties’ long-term shift from representing working-class and labour interests to the technocratic management of neoliberalism. What has disrupted this depressing situation is, above all, the existence of large-scale popular movements.
posted by RogerB at 1:33 PM on February 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Croatia just canceled the debts of its poorest citizens - "The government program involves major local banks, leading telecom operators, the four biggest Croatian cities and several public utility companies. The government will not pay the debts; the creditors will simply absorb them."[*]
Slavoj Zizek: Capitalism has broken free of the shackles of democracy - "Economic models have proved more portable than political ideas... Market-based economics has no problem accommodating local religions, cultures or traditions. It is easily reconciled with the primacy of an authoritarian state. No longer wedded to western cultural values, it is arguably divorced from them; critically reinterpreted, many of the ideas that westerners hold dear — egalitarianism, fundamental rights, a generous and universal welfare-state — can be deployed as weapons against capitalism."
posted by kliuless at 5:32 PM on February 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Slavoj Zizek: Capitalism has broken free of the shackles of democracy - "Economic models have proved more portable than political ideas... Market-based economics has no problem accommodating local religions, cultures or traditions. It is easily reconciled with the primacy of an authoritarian state. No longer wedded to western cultural values, it is arguably divorced from them; critically reinterpreted, many of the ideas that westerners hold dear — egalitarianism, fundamental rights, a generous and universal welfare-state — can be deployed as weapons against capitalism."
posted by kliuless at 5:32 PM on February 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
so up until last night it was more trench warfare...
Greece finance minister reveals plan to end debt stand-off
posted by kliuless at 7:49 AM on February 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
- Krugman: Who’s Unreasonable Now? - "If Germany thinks that the Greeks are demanding too much, well, we’re in a negotiation — hopefully one that does not rely on the threat that the ECB will destroy Greece’s banks if it fails to cave. The point for now is that Syriza is making sense. The next move is up to the creditors."
- What’s Going On with Greece and the ECB?
- Three Greek banks tap 2 billion euros in emergency funding - "Greek banks are likely to retain access to central bank financing even after the bailout expires at the end of the month as long as the Greek government is engaged in negotiations on a reform programme with the euro zone that is supported by the bailout, two euro officials told Reuters. That would remove the immediate threat of Greece being forced to leave the euro, a question that would arise if Greece was unable to fund itself and its banks, while keeping pressure on Athens to reach an agreement with its official creditors. ELA requires either a reform programme agreed with the euro zone or the prospect of reaching such an agreement. The ECB has kept the taps on for Greece before, as well as for Cyprus... Germany’s Bundesbank is concerned that the ELA funding could be abused if banks use it to buy Treasury bills to help cover the government's funding needs. The banks could then use that short-term debt as collateral for further central bank liquidity."
- Dear Eurozone officials, Mr Putin is waiting - "But Krugman overstates that club. It is entirely within Alexis Tsipras's power to default to the ECB too. Indeed the pattern for government defaults is to simultaneously force a private sector default. How about this for a negotiating position... we will pass a law to make it illegal for any Greek bank to repay the ECB. Period. Then have a one week banking holiday, re-denominate all remaining Greek bank assets and liabilities in Drachma, and if a default event passes any court we will nationalise the Greek banks as-per-Washington Mutual - leaving the obligations in some stripped-down shell from which there is nothing to collect. Finally, in this environment, depositors will receive shares in the new Greek banks in proportion to their deposits. Those shares will be worth a lot because an obscene amount of bank liabilities will be wiped out."
The ECB is pretty clearly playing from its tried and tested playbook in their current stand-off with the Greek government. Governing Council members know they can cut off lots of credit from the Greek banks in March and many of them are happy to tell the world they are thinking about doing this. As a result, they hope to get Greece’s new government to sign a new deal with the EU and IMF.
But don’t believe for a minute that this is a technocratic thing to do with “the ECB having to follow its rules.” And it has almost nothing to do with Greek government bonds being junk-rated. All of the issues discussed above come down to discretionary decisions by the ECB Governing Council (restrictions on T-bills, waivers on junk-rated government bonds, arbitrary lines-in-the-sand on government guaranteed bonds and the mysterious rules of ELA) and there is plenty of wiggle room for them to allow Greek banks to continue receiving various sources of funding next month in the absence of an EU-IMF program agreement.
I fully expect the ECB-as-heavy-hearted-technocrat angle to dominate press coverage of this story this month. That’s a pity because the “ECB in politicised mission creep while helping trigger a bank run” story is more interesting and closer to the truth.
Greece finance minister reveals plan to end debt stand-off
Greece’s radical new government unveiled proposals on Monday for ending the confrontation with its creditors by swapping outstanding debt for new growth-linked bonds, running a permanent budget surplus and targeting wealthy tax-evaders.apparently the valve connection came thru!
Yanis Varoufakis, the new finance minister, outlined the plan in the wake of a dramatic week in which the government’s first moves rattled its eurozone partners and rekindled fears about the country’s chances of staying in the currency union.
After meeting Mr Varoufakis in London, George Osborne, the UK chancellor of the exchequer, described the stand-off between Greece and the eurozone as the “greatest risk to the global economy”.
Attempting to sound an emollient note, Mr Varoufakis told the Financial Times the government would no longer call for a headline write-off of Greece’s €315bn foreign debt. Rather it would request a “menu of debt swaps” to ease the burden, including two types of new bonds.
The first type, indexed to nominal economic growth, would replace European rescue loans, and the second, which he termed “perpetual bonds”, would replace European Central Bank-owned Greek bonds.
[...]
“What I’ll say to our partners is that we are putting together a combination of a primary budget surplus and a reform agenda,” Mr Varoufakis, a leftwing academic economist and prolific blogger, said.
- The NGDP moment - "Mr. Varoufakis is the man who took the position of Economist in Residence at Valve in 2012. Valve is operated by Gabe Newell. Mr. Newell was one of the big naames to pledge support to Mr. Sumner’s NGDP futures market project last year."
- An American billionaire wants to save the US economy with a betting market in New Zealand - "A more accurate way to forecast the growth of the US economy could help the Fed avert another Great Recession."
- Gabe Newell: On Productivity, Economics, Political Institutions, and the Future of Corporations - "Gabe Newell, head of Valve Software, gives a talk on productivity, economics, political institutions, and the future of corporations on January 30, 2013 at the Lyndon B Johnson School of Public Affairs at The University of Texas at Austin." [1,2]
- Battle of the Economics Bloggers - "The gladiatorial arena that is macroeconomics blogging is always exciting. One crowd-pleaser is Scott Sumner, a professor at Bentley University, who is the champion fighter of a team that calls itself the market monetarists. They believe that it’s the Federal Reserve’s job to fight recessions, doing whatever it takes in the way of monetary easing in order to get nominal gross domestic product (click on the link for a full explanation) back to a healthy trend. They fight a running battle with a group loosely known as the Keynesians, who believe that the Fed can’t do the job on its own, and needs help from Congress in the form of fiscal stimulus."
- Gdp-linked loans and loan restructuring for Greece - "Here is a new paper by Fratzscher, Steffen, and Rieth (pdf), advocating gdp-linked loans for Greece. Here are older proposals for gdp-indexed bonds (pdf). Scott Sumner comments on the new Greek proposal. Here is an IMF paper on the topic (pdf). Greece already issues some gdp-linked warrants. Here is Argentina fudging its gdp stats to save on its gdp-indexed bonds. Here is more on related disputes."
posted by kliuless at 7:49 AM on February 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Greeks take to the streets to support government’s anti-austerity stance
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:04 AM on February 7, 2015
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:04 AM on February 7, 2015
Germany v Greece is a fight to the death, a cultural and economic clash of wills
Greece's leaders stun Europe with escalating defiance
Syriza and the poverty of philosophy
Why Ernesto Laclau is the intellectual figurehead for Syriza and Podemos
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:16 PM on February 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Greece's leaders stun Europe with escalating defiance
Syriza and the poverty of philosophy
Why Ernesto Laclau is the intellectual figurehead for Syriza and Podemos
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:16 PM on February 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I laughed at Yanis Varoufakis assertion that “Exit from the euro does not even enter into our plans, quite simply because the euro is fragile. It is like a house of cards. If you pull away the Greek card, they all come down,”
Isn't exist necessarily a part of Syriza's plans in the sense that exit is Syriza's leverage, yes? Ain't imho likely that Europe will cave to rhetoric so Syriza must actually begin an exit at some point. Isn't that why they allied with a right-wing anti-Euro party? And a fast surprise exist might harm the greek economy least. I'd personally envision Europe allowing exit too because (a) that hurts most politicians' careers the least and (b) economists' have warned about exit for so long that nobody really minds.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:12 AM on February 10, 2015
Isn't exist necessarily a part of Syriza's plans in the sense that exit is Syriza's leverage, yes? Ain't imho likely that Europe will cave to rhetoric so Syriza must actually begin an exit at some point. Isn't that why they allied with a right-wing anti-Euro party? And a fast surprise exist might harm the greek economy least. I'd personally envision Europe allowing exit too because (a) that hurts most politicians' careers the least and (b) economists' have warned about exit for so long that nobody really minds.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:12 AM on February 10, 2015
Greece and the Euro face-off
When demonstrations are not enough
Yanis Varoufakis: more erratic than Marxist
Frédéric Lordon: Syriza in a bind
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:32 PM on February 10, 2015
When demonstrations are not enough
Yanis Varoufakis: more erratic than Marxist
Frédéric Lordon: Syriza in a bind
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:32 PM on February 10, 2015
fuckyeahyanisvaroufakis.tumblr.com
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:36 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:36 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Greece, Eurozone Ministers at Fundamental Loggerheads
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:06 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:06 PM on February 11, 2015
Greece bailout talks break down after Athens rejects 'unacceptable' eurozone demands
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:27 PM on February 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:27 PM on February 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
@AntonWSJ: "A tough one! Bild asks today: "The RUSSIAN or the GREEK: Who is more dangerous to us?"
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:20 AM on February 19, 2015
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:20 AM on February 19, 2015
PM Tsipras declares war at home on Greece's 'oligarchs'
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:43 AM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:43 AM on February 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Greek government accidentally sent the wrong letter to Brussels on Thursday with the intended version going a step further accepting conditions agreed to by the previous government, Germany's Bild Zeitung reported Friday citing government sources.
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:14 AM on February 20, 2015
posted by Golden Eternity at 8:14 AM on February 20, 2015
Yeah not much backing this up except for our good friends in Bild reporting on their nameless sources.
posted by Dr Dracator at 9:25 AM on February 20, 2015
posted by Dr Dracator at 9:25 AM on February 20, 2015
Full Text of four month extension statement
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:21 PM on February 20, 2015
posted by Golden Eternity at 12:21 PM on February 20, 2015
since a proxy war of ideology economic control seems to be r/waging over greece right now:
-The Austerity Con
-Back to the Nineteenth Century
-Austerity, fear and bubblethink
-Origins of bad policy
-Mindless and Mindful Austerity: Focus
also btw...
-Greece: a simple macroeconomic guide
-A picture of change: Greek reforms in reality
-Why Greek Exit From The Euro Would Be A Very Bad Idea
oh and speaking of which you could also play realpolitik cards, which varoufakis has, altho apparently he's ruled out russian aid: "We will never ask for financial assistance in Moscow." beijing otoh...
posted by kliuless at 12:12 PM on February 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
-The Austerity Con
‘The government cannot go on living beyond its means.’ This seems common sense, so when someone puts forward the view that just now austerity is harmful, and should wait until times are better, it appears fanciful and too good to be true. Why would the government be putting us through all this if it didn’t have to?-Erskine Bowles is Back
By insisting on cuts in government spending and higher taxes that could easily have been postponed until the recovery from recession was assured, the government delayed the recovery by two years. And with the election drawing nearer, it allowed the pace of austerity to slow, while pretending that it hadn’t. Now George Osborne is promising, should the Tories win the election in May, to put the country through the same painful and unnecessary process all over again. Why? Why did the government take decisions that were bound to put the recovery at risk, when those decisions weren’t required even according to its own rules? How did a policy that makes so little sense to economists come to be seen by so many people as inevitable?
-Back to the Nineteenth Century
-Austerity, fear and bubblethink
-Origins of bad policy
-Mindless and Mindful Austerity: Focus
also btw...
-Greece: a simple macroeconomic guide
-A picture of change: Greek reforms in reality
-Why Greek Exit From The Euro Would Be A Very Bad Idea
oh and speaking of which you could also play realpolitik cards, which varoufakis has, altho apparently he's ruled out russian aid: "We will never ask for financial assistance in Moscow." beijing otoh...
posted by kliuless at 12:12 PM on February 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
via @edwardnh...
-Was it worth it? Concessions to Greece relative to the rejected draft of 16 February
-Reading The Greek Deal Correctly
-Greece's fate: In Angela Merkel's hands?
-You've heard the Greek crisis myths, now here are some truths
-Dani Rodrik explains why a Greek euro exit isn't a solution for anyone (Greek funny money: no thanks)
-Greece draws up €7.3bn tax hit list aimed at oligarchs and criminals
-Greek reforms concentration to 'combat tax evasion'
-Growth-linked bonds: A solution for Greece ("a better version could be making bonds tax-receipt related, which is both GDP and tax-reform based")
posted by kliuless at 1:48 PM on February 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
-Was it worth it? Concessions to Greece relative to the rejected draft of 16 February
Summary assessment: Was it worth the hassle to reject the draft of 16 February, just to accept the statement four days later? For Athens it most certainly was. It got the promise that no self-defeating, excessive austerity would be asked of it any more, the assurance that it could devise its own economic and social policies, as long as they did not impact negatively on the interests of its partners, rather than having to execute and leaving in place all the measures accepted by the former government and strongly rejected by the people. These are huge improvements for Athens, with no significant counterbalancing downside compared to 16 February.-Was it worth it for Schäuble? What did he gain by blocking Varoufakis' 11 February proposal?
Summary assessment: Was it worth the hassle for Wolfgang Schäuble to play hardball and to block any agreement on the basis of proposals Varoufakis made on 11 Februry in front of the Eurogroup? A close paragraph by paragraph comparison of the final result with those suggestions renders the result that the only thing that Schäuble got from this, which was not already included in Varoufakis' proposals was the sentence: "The Greek authorities reiterate their unequivocal commitment to honour their financial obligations to all their creditors fully and timely." Varoufakis had already renounced the word haircut, earlier, however. Thus, over all, Schäuble and his allies got rather little what they could not have had already 11 February.-Greece and the EU: a question of trust
-Reading The Greek Deal Correctly
-Greece's fate: In Angela Merkel's hands?
-You've heard the Greek crisis myths, now here are some truths
-Dani Rodrik explains why a Greek euro exit isn't a solution for anyone (Greek funny money: no thanks)
-Greece draws up €7.3bn tax hit list aimed at oligarchs and criminals
-Greek reforms concentration to 'combat tax evasion'
-Growth-linked bonds: A solution for Greece ("a better version could be making bonds tax-receipt related, which is both GDP and tax-reform based")
posted by kliuless at 1:48 PM on February 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't see that this was posted yet; it's really good:
Yanis Varoufakis Interview 2015-02-05
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:01 PM on February 23, 2015
Yanis Varoufakis Interview 2015-02-05
posted by Golden Eternity at 7:01 PM on February 23, 2015
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