What were the skating judges watching?

February 11, 2002 8:34 PM

What were the skating judges watching? What a robbery! The Canadian pair, Jamie Sale and David Pelletier were just fantastic, and deserved the gold. It is hard to imagine what the judges were thinking, because they had it all - technical merit, drama, passion, and excellence. And after the decision, dignity.
posted by wpeyton (68 comments total)

That was the biggest crock of sh*t I've ever seen. Everyone who watched this tonight knows who really won the gold medal - the Canadians. This is putting such a rotten taste in my mouth I don't know if I can watch figure skating anymore.

Oh, and from where I'm sitting, Ina & Zimmerman shoulda been third - at least fourth.
posted by dnash at 8:45 PM on February 11, 2002

I didn't see the freestyle tonight but the Russians did better in the short program. They were better than the Canadians last night. Actually, if you check the scores you can see that the Canadians lost because of the short program.

I didn't really care for Sale & Pelletier, honestly. Something about her kind of put me off. I was routing for Shen and Xiao...wish I could have seen them tonight.
posted by kittyloop at 9:02 PM on February 11, 2002

Deja Vu, Deja Vu, Deja Vu, Deja Vu, Deja Vu, Deja Vu.

These judges drive me up the wall. No wonder I hate figure skating. And who didn't think Michelle Kwan really won last time around? Sheesh. After the short program, I agreed that the Russians were in first, but they had a couple obvious flaws in the long program (which is worth 2/3 of the points isn't it?). Nothing at all against the skaters, I'm disappointed in the judges.
posted by stormy at 9:05 PM on February 11, 2002

I disagree that they lost because of the short program - they were in second after all. They lost because they got low marks in the freestyle (IMHO). You're right on about the Chinese - if she could have held on to the quad (and assuming her partner would have kept his composure if she had), they would have had a real shot at it. Of course the history of the skating judges would be against them.
posted by stormy at 9:09 PM on February 11, 2002

The russian show was technicall more difficult, so they got a bit of an edge on the total score. Kinda like gymnastics or swimming, the difficulty of the program impacts the score.

A perfect, but medium, program is silver. A difficult, and bobbled FOUR times, program is gold.

I won't discuss that the Russians were given high scores by the eastern bloc....
posted by dwivian at 9:12 PM on February 11, 2002

Something about her kind of put me off...

Kittyloop - Say it ain't so. Those two were poetry in motion. Not to mention, Jamie Sale is a luminoulsy beautiful woman in that special French-Canadian way. No joke, I visited Quebec City once and all the women were absolutely gorgeous. My girlfreind in part Quebecois as well, so I know what I'm talking about.
posted by jonmc at 9:14 PM on February 11, 2002

It's just another reason why I don't like sports are judged so qualitatively. Based on my layman knowledge of the sport, trying not to be biased by the commentators on NBC, I felt that the Canadian pair's program seemed smoother, and most importantly, their program *connected* with its audience, something the other top teams did not do.
posted by gyc at 9:17 PM on February 11, 2002

The fault lies not with the skaters but with the judges. This is not reason to hate figure skating. The performances themselves were quite heart-stopping, to me an admitted neophyte spectator.

What has just unfolded this evening in the pairs figure skating competition will be the single most memorable controversy of this years' Olympics. Bronze was agreed upon across the board among the judges, but it looked more like the final tally of a Survivor episode than it did a respectable impartial competition.

Russia, China, Poland, Ukraine and France gave the gold to the Russians. USA, Canada, Germany, and Japan gave it to the Canadians. Perhaps one would be hard pressed to accuse France or Germany of bias, but I see political favoritism on both sides of the globe here, and I don't think the judges fairly rated the achievements of the skaters themselves. The russian performance, though impressive, was simply not worth gold. The media talking heads noted four specific errors that should have dented their numbers. I saw more than four. However, I could find nothing wrong with the canadian freestyle performance. They were flawless. Last night the canadians goofed, but not tonight.

The problem isn't with the actual Olympians, but someone should really address the issue of judge bias. It looks rather obvious.

Further, people will forever argue whether the allegedly accidental collision between Anton Sikharulidze & Jamie Sale played a factor in the eyes of the judges. During practice just prior to the award winning performances, Sale and Sikharulidze collided on the ice, the pairs rehearsing too close together on the ice before the entire crowd. Both pairs were each in the middle of their respective routines. The actual collision looked potentially dangerous. Fortunately everyone was alright, but they were all noticably shaken. It's still unclear who was actually at fault in that accident, and whether or not it was a premeditated attempt at unnerving one another. I'd personally like to assume it was innocent and perhaps it was, but nonetheless people will question whether or not the judges were affected by seeing that.

I mean, it's an Olympic size rink! Why were they practicing so close?
posted by ZachsMind at 9:17 PM on February 11, 2002

The long program is 2/3 of the score. And it's supposed to be more about artistry than the technical stuff (which is what the short program--with all the technical requirements--is for).

Sale & Pelletier were ROBBED. They skated brilliantly, and on top of that, their program was technically flawless. The Russians (whose names I can't spell so I won't even try) looked like a couple of marionettes, made at least 4 mistakes, and had no charisma at all.

As ZachsMind said, it's not the athletes, it's the judges. I suspect that the Russian pair won for a number of (fairly shallow) reasons: 1) the Russians always win pairs in the Olympics; 2) this particular pair won silver in 1998 because they screwed up a lift in their free program (I think it says something that they won silver despite making a major technical error); 3) the woman is the skater who had her head sliced open by a blade and almost died, 6 years ago, and thus gets pity points.

These aren't good reasons, but look at how dirty ice dancing was up until a few years ago--and ice dancing still isn't completely clean.

The only reason I keep watching the sport is because every once in a while, the judges get it right. Here's hoping that Todd Eldredge finally gets his Olympic medal this year.
posted by eilatan at 9:34 PM on February 11, 2002

Amazing how everyone becomes an expert judge after one or two hours of watching this crap.
posted by HTuttle at 9:39 PM on February 11, 2002

The Canadians were ten points short coming into the competition tonight. Granted the programs are weighted differently (33.3 short - 66.7 freestyle), but ten points are ten points. They lost by two tonight. Like I said, I didn't see tonight's skate, so I'm going on scores alone.

I know a woman who is the head of a prominent figure skating organization and has judged around the world. She tries to be as fair as possible. Judges enter into these situations with their biases, though, one of which she says is whether they like the athlete or not. For instance, many in the figure skating world liked Tanya Harding, and thought Nancy Kerrigan was a bitch on wheels. (Not that it excuses what Harding did, but it kind of explains why she was the queen of second chances.)

And jonmc, there was something in Sale's demeanor that reminded me of Kerrigan, which is why I didn't take to her. I saw one of those background stories that really left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure your girlfriend is lovely, though!
posted by kittyloop at 9:44 PM on February 11, 2002

Jamie Sale is a luminoulsy beautiful woman in that special French-Canadian way.

Sale is from British Columbia, which is about as far from French-Canadian as you can get in Canada.

Personally, this is why I prefer downhill and nordic skiing, and speed skating. The only judge is the stopwatch, and you can't accuse them of being biased. Unless they're Swiss watches or something.
posted by mkn at 9:44 PM on February 11, 2002

Well, HTuttle, I've been watching figure skating pretty faithfully since 1988, so I've seen this sort of thing happen time and again. It's nothing new, and I'm certainly not speaking from the position of only watching an hour or two. And I suspect I'm not the only person posting who is a regular watcher of the sport.

(And mkn, I just had an argument with a friend who claims that all Olympic sports are completely fixed and that they're not worth watching at all. Naturally, he has no support for his thesis, but once he digs his heels in, it's useless making him change his mind. Of course, he also seems to think that one can actually see non-Olympics luge or speed skating on a regular basis in the US on Wide World of Sports. Ha ha ha.)
posted by eilatan at 9:56 PM on February 11, 2002

Sale sounded like aFrench name...and she looked like the women I saw wandering around Quebec City, but my bad.
I agree with Kittyloop on Kerigan though, we need a new Tonya Harding perhaps...
posted by jonmc at 9:59 PM on February 11, 2002

Sale is from British Columbia, which is about as far from French-Canadian as you can get in Canada.

<sarcasm>Yeah, the Canadians did a good job putting up those fences to keep the french from sneaking out of Quebec into the rest of the country.</sarcasm>
I would guess that with a last name like Sale (that doesn't rhyme with tail), she's got at least some French background, regardless of where she was born and raised.
posted by jheiz at 10:00 PM on February 11, 2002

Jamie Sale is a luminoulsy beautiful woman in that special French-Canadian way.
Sale is from British Columbia, which is about as far from French-Canadian as you can get in Canada.

Not to drag this out unneccessarily, but Sale is actually from Red Deer Alberta.

However it's even truer to say that this is about as far as you can get from French Canadian in Canada.
posted by bowline at 10:15 PM on February 11, 2002

close enough. Everything west of Ontario is all the same to us Ontarians.

Anyway, back to the topic: judges BOO!
posted by mkn at 10:18 PM on February 11, 2002

You guys are silly. The Olympics are all about global love and cooperation. To accuse judges of a bias against North America or for Europe is just silly! Come on now...
posted by owillis at 10:21 PM on February 11, 2002

As if the judges weren't bad enough, I'm all for the forceful removal of Scott Hamilton's vocal cords. I'm bright enough to understand his various screams of elation/fustration, but otherwise I'm clueless. Tell me WHY you're excited, Scott, don't just shout in my ear.
posted by Wildcat3 at 10:24 PM on February 11, 2002

Pelletier's the one from Quebec, not that anyone seems to notice his good Quebecois looks. I babbled on about this a bit at SpoFi but I'll gladly put my two cents in here as well. I was absolutely amazed that they gave the gold to Berez/Sikha after watching Sale/Pelletier's performance. It was the most artistically beautiful performance I've seen from a non-Russian pair in a long time (though Ina and Zimmerman's was pretty damn good as well) and I'll go back to my belief that judges are biased more towards classical programs than anything remotely modern... which is also partly why Surya Bonaly never made it higher than 4th in her three Olympic showings. She always had that quirkiness to her program that seemed to rub the judges the wrong way.

I can't even think of skating moments anymore without a flashback to '92 and Paul Wylie's silver medal-winning performance. I've never seen its equal in ten years. That one taught me that 2nd place can sometimes be a glorious thing. But not when you're robbed of first by eastern bloc biases.
posted by evixir at 10:42 PM on February 11, 2002

HTuttle: "Amazing how everyone becomes an expert judge after one or two hours of watching this crap.
Eilatan: "...I'm certainly not speaking from the position of only watching an hour or two."

I am speaking from the perspective of only only watching a few hours of this crap, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm not claiming to be an expert judge. The judge bias evident here is something that Tom Sullivan coulda grokked. My ex-wife would watch this crap, and since I'd be in the same room at the time I'd watch too. This is the first time I've ever watched figure skating by choice, and I have to admit I rather enjoyed it. Even though the judges were stupid.

Oh, and I think Scott Hamilton's doing a great job.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:49 PM on February 11, 2002

The Canadians actually won on technical merit (scores here), but the sport is scored on the total of Technical and Presentation for each judge. Two judges had them tied with the Russians. The tiebreaker is Presentation, and the judges had given the Russians higher Presentation marks. Gold to the Russians.

That said, I think the judges were completely wrong this evening. The Canadians skated clean with an interesting, polished, classy program. The Russians were sloppy. Figure skating judging has always seemed flawed to me. I think they need to overhaul their system.
posted by neuroshred at 10:52 PM on February 11, 2002

Can anyone explain to me why the figure skating scoring system is on a scale of one to six? Gymnastics are on a scale of one to ten, which sort of works.

When the range of scores is only 5.6 to 6.0, it makes no sense. There weren't any scores of less than 5.7. So that's possibly a 4 point spread. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a scale of 1 to 4, if that's all the judges will score?
posted by acridrabbit at 11:15 PM on February 11, 2002

In regards to the scoring, I think that was a series of internal diplomatic decisions. It's not as bad today as it perhaps was decades ago, but when you score a young sensitive person rather low, it would easily dash his/her hopes and make them feel emotionally destroyed. When I was in school, the kids who were into such events as gymnastics, skating, or beauty pageants would also be kids who would have mild panic attacks at the sight of an A-, and anything less would bring about a temper tantrum. I would imagine that scores which indicate less than near perfect among this psychologically sensitive crowd would bring about near riots among the participants. I agree that they should dramatically redesign how judging is scored. They should dramatically redesign figure skating judging altogether, but to do so would be fighting generations of history. This would mean another riot. It's a no-win.
posted by ZachsMind at 12:01 AM on February 12, 2002

Whinge whinge whinge.

I'll bet almost nobody posting on this thread has the slightest idea of what the judges are really looking for. Commentators the world over are horribly biased and so are able to impart a sense of injustice in viewers who know bugger all about the sport.

I don't like "sports" like figure skating. Anything which is judged on technical merit is not sport. It's dance, or entertainment. Sport is about higher, faster, more goals etc.
posted by salmacis at 12:46 AM on February 12, 2002

I might not have the slightest idea what the judges were looking for, but I would have cut the judges a lot more slack if it weren't for the long history of cheating and collusion by Soviet-bloc judges to ensure an acceptable (Soviet) winner.
posted by gyc at 1:48 AM on February 12, 2002

There are a TON of misconceptions about skating and judging in this thread. I'm not sure I can remember what all of them were to respond, but I think I will clear a few things up.

(My credentials -- I am not a judge, but I have been a low-level competitive skater in both ice and roller skating, and I would consider myself a knowledgable fan. I know judges and have discussed judging issues with them in the past.)

Zachsmind, the collision between the skaters probably had no effect on the judges scoring. Judges don't pay attention to that kind of thing. They are specifically trained not to. As for how they hit each other on an Olympic-sized rink -- skaters at that level are damn fast. There are only four pairs on the ice in a warmup because they are so fast, and taking up so much room with their throws, etc., that it's just not safe to have more than 4 pairs there. And even with the best intentions, accidents still happen.

Kittyloop said: "The Canadians were ten points short coming into the competition tonight. Granted the programs are weighted differently (33.3 short - 66.7 freestyle), but ten points are ten points. They lost by two tonight."

Skating hasn't used total points for scoring in about 20 years. The scores from the short program are irrelevant. All that matters is the placement. They got 2nd in the short, so they go into the long program with a score of 1 (2 -- their placement -- x 0.5). Had they gotten 1st in the long, that would have added 1 to their score (1 x 1.0) for a total score of 2. Instead, they came in second, so that added 2 (2 x 1.0) to their score: total, 3.

The Russian team finished first in the short, so they went into the long with a score of 0.5. If they had come in second to the Canadians, they would have had 2 added to that, for a total of 2.5 (and the Canadians would have had 2, so they would have won). The lowest score wins. But the Russians also came in first in the long, so their total was 1.5 to the Canadians' 3. (This is the "TFP" referred to on the official results page.

Note that anyone who finishes in the top 3 of the short program can win the whole shebang by winning the long. So the Russians, the Canadians, or the Chinese could have won it tonight just by finishing first in the long. The skaters further back had a shot, too, but their chances depended not only on winning the long but on all the higher-ranked skaters dropping to certain levels.

If all of this is confusing, the figure skating scoring FAQ will help you.

Acridrabbit, scores are on a 0-6 scale for historic reasons. Back in the old days, when school figures were the be all and end all of skating, skaters skated 3 figures in an event, with 2 points per figure. (This is WAY WAY back in the mists of time, like 100 years ago or something.) 3x2 is 6. When the competition structure changed, they kept the scale, though it seems silly now.

It's not that they only score 5.6-6.0, either, acridrabbit. It's that you are only seeing the top skaters, the ones who generally score at that level. I was at Worlds in Vancouver last year, and, trust me, even at that level, I saw skaters scoring in the 3's. I have seen World-level skaters get as low as a 2.5 (usually these are skaters from countries with very poor skating programs, so they just don't really have the technical level required to get high scores, and then they have a poor skate... presto, 2.5). But Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya, etc -- they are usually going to get 5s unless the performance is an absolute disaster, because their basic level of ability and difficulty is so high.

I haven't seen this skate yet -- it's waiting on the TiVO. But it was a CLOSE decision, folks. One judge changing his/her mind would have changed the outcome. You can't blame this on Eastern Bloc bias (unless the French joined the Eastern Bloc when I wasn't looking). It is true that European judges often value things differently from North American judges -- for example, they put a higher premium on the speed of the skating. But I don't see this as a crime.

Here, having not seen the program yet, are some things that might have made the difference, from a skater's perspective:

* Speed. Which team was faster? This is notoriously difficult to judge on TV. It may have been obvious to those sitting in the arena, though! Having been to competitions that I later watched on tv, I can tell you that speed really doesn't show up on camera at all.

* Difficulty. The consensus I've seen from folks I trust is that the Russians' program had a higher level of difficulty. Sale and Pelletier went back to an old program for the Olympics, one that is really dramatic and fun to watch, but one that is less difficult than the program they were using earlier in the year.

* Balance. Not whether they fall down all the time, but whether the program is well-balanced. For example, some skaters front-load their programs, putting all the difficult moves at the beginning and then coasting through the rest.

* Unison. This is part of the presentation score. I'm looking at the scores right now, and it looks like the presentation scores are what really made the decision. Keep in mind that despite the yammerings of commentators who should know better (yes, I mean you, Scott Hamilton), "presentation" does not mean "artistry." It does not mean costumes, or who has the best music, or whether the program is brand-new, either. Judges aren't supposed to pay attention to any of that. From the FAQ I linked to above: Presentation reflects "the choreography, flow, and balance of the program, the ability of the skaters to interpret their chosen music, and other factors such as making good use of the ice surface, skating with speed, sureness, and effortless carriage, and unison for pair skaters." It does not reflect the emotion of their skating, how much the fans like them, etc.

I could go on, but I think it would drive everyone nuts. :)


Now that I'm actually looking at the scores, though -- wow, that was close. Go look at them yourselves. The actual, judge by judge scores. I really don't think the fix was in here. I'm really looking forward to seeing the skating for myself -- sounds like it was a good event.
posted by litlnemo at 3:24 AM on February 12, 2002

Come back and post,please, after the tivo-we wanna know what you think!at least I do...
posted by bunnyfire at 3:42 AM on February 12, 2002

I want to watch it soon! But it might be a while until I get a chance -- maybe later today or tonight. I will try to remember to come back and post afterward. So much skating, so little time...
posted by litlnemo at 4:53 AM on February 12, 2002

Great post, litlnemo ... I wish the commentators had found time to explain some of those things last night.

I was outraged by the decision, but my outrage was fueled almost entirely by the unofficial judges in the broadcast booth. I have no idea how those events are supposed to be judged, so I err on the side of the attractive people from non-communist nations unless they make errors so obvious even I can spot them.
posted by rcade at 5:31 AM on February 12, 2002

Three cheers for the "Non-Commie Hotties!" :)

(interesting name for a band as well)
posted by owillis at 5:38 AM on February 12, 2002

The line that best sums up the judging scam:

"Without a doubt, I am ashamed for my sport"
-Lori Nichol, commentator on NBC
posted by Grum at 5:57 AM on February 12, 2002

Umm, Lori Nichol was the choreographer for Sale/Pelletier. Hardly an unbiased viewpoint.

I watched the last flight of pairs last night and I was a little disappointed (to the extent one can be disappointed by something one cares nothing about) but at the same time... I don't think the fix was in. I'm not a big figure skating fan, but I know enough to understand that things like the speed and amplitude of the skaters, not to mention the difficulty of the program, are very important - and further that they are hard for non-experts to "see" while watching on television.

As well, I wonder how much the choice of the program had to do with it. It is well known that Sale/Pelletier have a more difficult program they skate - they have used it in competition before (and won with it). Although I'm sure the judges are specifically told NOT to judge that side of things, but to judge the skate they see performed, I think it would be hard to completely ignore the fact that in some ways what they're seeing is arguably the "B" program.
posted by mikel at 6:38 AM on February 12, 2002

It wasn't Lori Nichol who made the "ashamed for my sport" comment: It was NBC commentator Sandra Bezic (don't know if there's any connection between her and Sale/Pelletier).
posted by ltracey at 7:14 AM on February 12, 2002

Something worthy of note, though.... The Russians have slipped enough to be in a controversy for the gold. I think that this may be the first herald of the end of the reign.
posted by dwivian at 8:20 AM on February 12, 2002

The Russians have been in controversies for the gold pretty much since they first got involved in figure skating. This is nothing new.
posted by Insomniac at 9:52 AM on February 12, 2002

I think Jackson Browne said it best:

"The Russians escaped while we weren't watching them, like Russians will"

--from 'Lawyers in Love'
posted by mecran01 at 10:24 AM on February 12, 2002

"The problem seems to begin with the fact that a TV screen can't capture an entire rink."
This article may help clear up some misconceptions about watching figure skating on TV. Though I'm not sure it matters in last night's competition, since the announcers at the rink seemed to think the Canadians were robbed.
posted by culberjo at 11:33 AM on February 12, 2002

Uhhh, did anybody else notice how the Canadian judge "coincidentally" gave the Russians the lowest score of all judges and the Canadians the highest score?

Eastern Bloc majority or the lesser-of-two-evils?
posted by Mach3avelli at 12:38 PM on February 12, 2002

Pairs judging simply indefensible

Chrstine Brennan, who is one of my favorite sports commentators/writes, called last night's decision "the most awful decision I have witnessed in 14 years of covering this sport." She reports that it was fixed all along:

"After the pairs long program on Monday and the judges' controversial 5-4 vote for the Russians, French judge Marie Reine Le Gougne, who voted for the Russians, told members of the International Skating Union's prestigious technical committee, as well as a few judges, that she was forced by her federation to vote for the Russians in a deal that would deliver a vote for the French team in the ice dancing competition later in the Olympic Games."
posted by jameschandler at 3:24 PM on February 12, 2002

Judging dance (even dancing on skates over ice) is like judging art. Its interpretive. Why not add speed painting to the olympics? Award points both on speed and quality of finished work.

Now if you put 2 couples on the ice at once and gave them a puck to shoot goals while they danced there would be no question as to who won...
posted by uftheory at 3:36 PM on February 12, 2002

> It's just another reason why I don't like sports are
> judged so qualitatively.

Couldn't agree more. Put this on ice and you'll have a winter event people will care about.
posted by jfuller at 6:56 PM on February 12, 2002

The French judge, now there's global love and cooperation. What a sickening admission- If that doesn't reverse the judging the Olympic Comitee's credability is finished for good.
posted by Eric Lloyd NYC at 8:10 PM on February 12, 2002

If the French judge is telling the truth, then the vote was fixed, there was collusion, the Russians didn't win fairly -- and the French will not win on Friday night.

In any case, the important thing is that the ISU is finally starting an investigation into its judges, and perhaps, perhaps, their very filthy house -- with years and years of dirt piled up -- will finally get a bit of a cleaning. This is a long time coming, I'm just sorry that it had to happen on Sale and Pelletier's backs -- they skated the better program, and moreover, they're much better sports. Gracious to a fault, honest about their disappointment but making absolutely sure to say that they're happy for the Russian pair and do not begrudge them the gold. Good on them.
posted by Dreama at 8:49 PM on February 12, 2002

So the french judge is claiming there was "a deal." That explains my inability to understand why the judges that voted for the russians were from Russia, Poland, China, the Ukraine, and France. However, I still don't understand why the Canadian voting judges were the US, Canada, Japan, and Germany. Did someone cut a deal with Germany? My, wouldn't that be hilarious? And they say the cold war is over? HA! Not in Utah!

litlnemo: "Zachsmind, the collision between the skaters probably had no effect on the judges scoring. Judges don't pay attention to that kind of thing. They are specifically trained not to."

The judges are trained to do a lot of things, like impartiality. However there's a long line of accusations insinuating otherwise. Perhaps some of the accusations were unfounded, but where there is smoke there is fire. We're dealing not with robotic atomotons, but human beings who are by definition fallible and incapable of being wholly impartial.

I don't have to put blades on my feet to see corruption. I don't have to have been trained as a judge to see a bad one. I am an asshole though, so I am fully qualified to be able to call these judges assholes: it takes one to know one. =)

Oh, and the phrase "the ability of the skaters to interpret their chosen music" reads to me as synonymous with artistry.

culberjo: "the announcers at the rink seemed to think the Canadians were robbed."

It should also be noted that the entire audience surrounding the rink who were right there and saw the same exact performances as the judges also seemed to think the Canadians were robbed. At least the noisy ones. There were a lot of boos when the placements came down for the Canadians. If the winter games were being held here in Dallas Texas this year I bet someone in the audience woulda been packing and *BLAM BLAM!* there go the judges!

In regards to the argument that Canada's "B" program wasn't as complex as Russia's "A" program, I don't see how two performers screwing up on a more complex performance beats a less complex performance where no one screwed up. That'd be like insisting teachers should grade students on a more lenient curve if they answer all the questions while standing on their heads. The chinese skaters who won the bronze attempted the quad-throw and bombed it. Should they have gotten a gold medal anyway cuz they were the only ones with the balls to attempt it? No. It can be argued the chinese performance was more complex than the russian performance, yet they got the bronze. The argument doesn't fly.
posted by ZachsMind at 9:37 PM on February 12, 2002

I don't know if their program was made more complex than the Russians' simply because they added a quad attempt. But I really liked it; it seemed to me to be the spirit of the Olympics, attempting the quad... trying to raise the bar even if it costs you a medal in the attempt. Midori Ito tried it too, I think, and Sasha Cohen has mentioned wanting to do the same. Try new things, fall and get back up again, but don't just go out there and do what you know and only what you know without trying new things that push your limits. Had the Chinese skaters not attempted the quad, I don't know that they would have won the bronze, to be honest, but I don't know the difficulty of their program. But regardless, watching the men's short program tonight, I can remember a time not too long ago where quads were almost unheard-of in competition. I wonder what's next...

All that aside, I too have liked the way Sale and Pelletier have reacted to the whole thing -- very classy on their part. That's the name of the game when it comes to competitions -- not everything is fair even when it's supposed to be, and they know that's how it's always been. It was just more blatant last night than other times, unfortunately. But for the record, even if collusion is somehow proven, there isn't any way they'd award the gold to Sale/Pelletier anyway, is there? As far as I'm aware, no matter what happens, the standings won't change. What recourse is there beyond an investigation into dirty judging?
posted by evixir at 10:01 PM on February 12, 2002

evixir: As far as I'm aware, no matter what happens, the standings won't change. What recourse is there beyond an investigation into dirty judging?

Oh, I don't know- there is precedent to remove medals and change standings after the fact, in the case of positive drug tests (Ben Johnson comes to mind). Therefore, one could make the case that if the French judge did indeed admit that they went into the competition guaranteeing a Russian win in a judge- fixing agreement (two questions: why would the French judge admit this? And if they did admit this- and it's not just a rumor- shouldn't this be even more explosive than it's being treated?), a possible remedy would be to remove the French judge's scores on all performances and recalculate the medal standings based on that- I wouldn't imagine it would change the overall standings, except possibly the controversial Gold/Silver.
posted by hincandenza at 11:00 PM on February 12, 2002

Unfortunately, removing just the scores of the French judge won't solve the problem -- she was in collusion, reportedly, with the Russian judge, whose scores would also have to removed. And then, we don't know who else made a deal with the Russian judge -- who is reportedly the center of at least one, if not all of the collusion. The judges from Poland and China were the others who placed the Canadians second, if I were an official of the IOC and/or the ISU, I'd be talking to them, as well.
posted by Dreama at 11:22 PM on February 12, 2002

OK, I've finally seen the event. But I haven't had time to read any news articles on the possible collusion, so I can't really comment on that, with the exception of pointing out that even if the French judge was dirty and had decided to collude, it might be that he or she would have chosen the Russians anyway, based on the way they actually skated when it came right down to it. So even if there was collusion, it doesn't mean that the Russians wouldn't have won anyway. I'll explain why I think so, below.

Zachsmind, you argue that the collision might have made a difference to the judges. Why? I mean, a skater watching that collision could tell that really no one was at fault. It was just one of those things that happens. Both teams were skating with their backs to each other until shortly before the collision (when the Russians turned around) -- it's not like Sale was at fault and therefore the judges were going to blame her. And she got the worst of the collision anyway. If anything, you'd expect her to get the pity votes. ;)

You also said "Oh, and the phrase "the ability of the skaters to interpret their chosen music" reads to me as synonymous with artistry. " Artistry is awfully subjective. At least in theory, one can define specific ways in which interpretation of music is done well. Artistry is a much more vague term, IMHO. At any rate, my point there was that "presentation," as the second mark, does not mean artistry; it means a lot of other things. The average person on the street thinks it means artistry and artistry alone (whatever that is), and that's not correct.

---

Anyway, I just watched the two programs multiple times each, taking notes. Here are the notes I made (edited for MeFi). Bear in mind that while I am a skater, I am not a pairs skater, so I don't know the names and specifics of the particular lifts they do, though I do know the other elements.

Berezhnaia & Sikharulidze:

* Seemed to have good speed. Hard to tell on camera.

* Their extension and carriage were excellent. Moves were finished, right to the fingertips. (This is very Russian, btw -- that strong ballet influence.) Their body positions were gorgeous. (This goes in the presentation mark.)

* Anton stepped out of the double axel landing, but his recovery was seamless. He lost no time at all, and they did the following jump in the sequence in perfect unison. That was possibly the best recovery of a screw-up I have ever seen a pairs team make. The error in the jump landing would affect the technical score, but the presentation score would be unaffected because the presentation was not affected by the error.

* They had some wonderful original positions in their death spiral.

* There were no "dead spots" in their program. They kept moving, constantly, not stopping to rest or emote. They skated closely together and had lots of different steps and directions in between the big elements. This is overall a high level of difficulty.

* Overall, their unison was stunning. Very nice. (This goes in the presentation score.)

* My final notes for this one: "Wow, excellent classical program! Surprised at the comments of Bezic/Hamilton." I didn't see the bobbles that they saw. (I also have no clue what the "four errors" were that Sandra Bezic referred to later.)

Sale & Pelletier

* Unison good, but noticeable unison errors in places

* Speed -- hard to tell. I thought it might have been slower, but I couldn't tell without two TVs side by side. :)

* Several places in the program where they stopped and emoted on the ice. This is showy, but it's not skating. (It also gives them a chance to rest a bit, which the other skaters didn't do.)

* Their extension was not as good -- I noticed especially that Jamie's arms were floppy and droopy in some sections. Perhaps that was intentional for the "Love Story" theme -- but if so, that was a bad decision. That is the kind of thing European judges are known for being sticklers on.

* Lifts possibly seemed easier

* Final notes: "Very, very nice program. Announcers idiots."

So, to my own shock (I like Sale & Pelletier, and really wanted them to win), I think the decision is fully explainable by the defined rules and standards of the sport. S&P did have higher technical scores, and that was probably justified by the cleanness of the program, though the lack of difficulty did hurt them here. Had they skated a more difficult program that clean, they probably would have won for sure. But the presentation mark is B&S' strength, and they didn't falter in that area, not a bit. I think, in the presentation mark, they did beat the Canadians.

It was close, though. I think you could justify either team winning this. We saw two amazing programs here. We should be happy to see that level of skating.

I wonder, though, why the announcers and crowd were so certain that the Canadians won. Bias? Maybe. It's not like I haven't seen that at skating events before. And you can skate an amazing crowd-pleasing program that doesn't deserve to win for a number of reasons, but the crowd will love it anyway -- so just because the crowd preferred B&S doesn't necessarily mean that their program was better. Still, I wish I could have been there to see it in person.

Even if there was collusion, I don't feel that the result was so obviously unjust to cause the uproar we are hearing now -- unless what they saw in SLC was completely different from what I saw on TV. (And remember, I saw it multiple times, with instant replay and slo-mo.)

----

One more thing --

The announcers should be ashamed. They didn't tell us a damn thing useful. (What elements were included in the programs? Did one team do more elements than the other? Why did you call one program more difficult -- what made it that way? What is this "one by one" scoring Scott Hamilton referred to? What were the "four mistakes" Sandra Bezic noted in the Russians' program? etc. They don't answer any of these questions -- no WONDER people are confused!)

I am disgusted, and this is only the first skating event of the Olys. I dread the men's and women's finals.

Now, off to read the news articles about collusion... (sigh)
posted by litlnemo at 1:02 AM on February 13, 2002

Damn right! How dare anyone have the temerity not to vote for the good, wholesome North Americans! Yee-haw!
posted by salmacis at 1:02 AM on February 13, 2002

FYI: Canada Wants Figure Skating Probe. NBC spent forever on this Tuesday night, then more time on the Apollo Ohno thing. God, we football fans complain about instant replay but this is a whole other ball of wax.
posted by owillis at 1:16 AM on February 13, 2002

The error in the jump landing would affect the technical score, but the presentation score would be unaffected because the presentation was not affected by the error.

Ah, but it was, because every jump from thereafter was stilted. They got too careful to keep their landings clean and went stiff. They had great extension, because their bodies were as rigid as statues -- the announcers saw it, the crowd saw it, some of the judges seemed to see it too.

I wonder, though, why the announcers and crowd were so certain that the Canadians won. Bias? Maybe.

Worldwide bias? About the only place that this isn't being questioned is Russia.

Even if there was collusion, I don't feel that the result was so obviously unjust to cause the uproar we are hearing now

If the result were widely skewed, it would be too obvious. Not only that -- why would the French judge make a false admission? She has nothing to gain from it, the French skaters that she claims to have colluded to aid have nothing to gain from it, it's all but inevitable that she'll lose her credentials and she's started a complete crapstorm that's going to run from the top of the sport to the bottom. Simply forcing the issue so that the ISU would investigate itself (something that has been needed for years) doesn't make sense, even with the fortuitous timing of a controversy to make her claim more believable.
posted by Dreama at 1:37 AM on February 13, 2002

Oh, hey, one more thing I forgot to mention. Apparently Sale & Pelletier had an illegal lift in their program -- his hand was on her thigh instead of her hip. So they weren't quite perfect in what they did. From a spectator's perspective, who cares. :) But it does matter to a judge, perhaps.
posted by litlnemo at 1:48 AM on February 13, 2002

I keep hearing people referring to the French judge implicating herself, and yet I'm not finding a single news source mentioning it -- only NBC on tv, saying that the report was in USA Today. But USA Today's web site and Brennan's story (linked above) don't even mention it, unless it's buried somewhere I can't find it. Did they retract the story or am I just too sleepy to research properly? Argh. I suppose it's off to rec.sport.skating.ice.figure, where someone should have the link...

(Incidentally, while searching for it, I found a rather entertaining version of the scandal here, in which it is stated "Canadian pair David Pelletizer and James Sale took silver. The decision to award the gold medal to Russian pair Yemen Berezina and Antony Sugarlike caused widespread disbelief in the Salt Lake Ice Center." I guess Reuters doesn't pay their copy editors much.)
posted by litlnemo at 4:12 AM on February 13, 2002

The Globe and Mail is reporting, on the front page of this morning's edition, that the result in pairs skating was predetermined in a deal that also predetermines the results of the ice dance competition: Italians first, French third, relegating Bourne and Kraatz (Canada) to fifth. (There is an updated version linked to from the Globe and Mail's home page, but the dynamic content on their site is a little too dynamic to link to reliably.)

Wendi -- I thought your analysis yesterday to have been really insightful. My only question is, how is it that no one has picked up that line of argument in the media? If a case can be made for Berezhnaia and Sikharulidze, why isn't someone in front of a camera somewhere making that case? (Conversely, if no one in authority is defending what ought to be a defensible argument, maybe it's not so defensible.)

I'm a spectator only. I don't even know how to skate. But my impression is that the Italians are not normally as good as the French or the Canadians in ice dance, and that keeping Bourne and Kraatz off the podium would be a crime. It would be very interesting to see if the predictions come true and the fix is in in ice dance too. I wonder, will they be brazen enough to do it?
posted by mcwetboy at 4:13 AM on February 13, 2002

I keep hearing people referring to the French judge implicating herself, and yet I'm not finding a single news source mentioning it -- only NBC on tv, saying that the report was in USA Today. But USA Today's web site and Brennan's story (linked above) don't even mention it, unless it's buried somewhere I can't find it. Did they retract the story or am I just too sleepy to research properly? Argh. I suppose it's off to rec.sport.skating.ice.figure, where someone should have the link...

(Incidentally, while searching for it, I found a rather entertaining version of the scandal here, in which it is stated "Canadian pair David Pelletizer and James Sale took silver. The decision to award the gold medal to Russian pair Yemen Berezina and Antony Sugarlike caused widespread disbelief in the Salt Lake Ice Center." I guess Reuters doesn't pay their copy editors much.)
posted by litlnemo at 4:30 AM on February 13, 2002

Oh, dammit. I guess I'm a real MeFi poster now that I've double-posted. Grr.

Mcwetboy, in the Skatefans mailing list, I have seen people referring to some respected skating authorities who have made cases for B&S, but I haven't really been keeping track of who -- I had more than 20 digests to wade through on that mailing list. :(

There are also quite a few digest posters who say that after they had a chance to cool off and rewatch the program, that they don't feel so bad about B&S winning. (But there are just as many who still think it was highway robbery.)

It seems to be like Nancy/Oksana or Brian/Brian, though -- one of those competitions where I would hate to be a judge. It was that close.

Oh, well. My heart is broken for Todd Eldredge in the men's competition, now. (sigh)
posted by litlnemo at 4:35 AM on February 13, 2002

Quick note -- Apparently Brennan's report about the French judge has been deleted from USA Today's web site with no indication that it ever existed. Now I really wonder what the heck is going on.
posted by litlnemo at 4:57 AM on February 13, 2002

The Christine Brennan column is back up at USA Today's website, but the last half of the column--the bit with the allegations of vote-swapping between the French and Russian judge has been removed.

Looks like it was edited late last night (there's a modified date/time of 2/12/02, 11:12pm, IIRC).

Very interesting...
posted by eilatan at 7:09 AM on February 13, 2002

Oh, hey, one more thing I forgot to mention. Apparently Sale & Pelletier had an illegal lift in their program -- his hand was on her thigh instead of her hip.

litlnemo is the closest here to an ice skating judge unless someone would like to prove me wrong. Maybe B&S did actually win. Did the crowd see the "illegal lift?"

Anyways, in a judged sport everyone has their opinion, but it's the judges that are trained to judge (certain elements in a program have to be performed, if they're not, automatic point deduction). So will eveyone just cool it end let this unfold? As for the French judge, well as you can all see the incriminating statment (alledged statement that is) was removed from the very source you head it first from, USA Today.

Someone pointed out that the French judge had nothing to gain and all to lose so it just doens't make any sense.
posted by Why at 9:18 AM on February 13, 2002

Some interesting commentary can be found here.

Again, seems to me B&S actually did beat S&P.
posted by Why at 9:29 AM on February 13, 2002

I'm a big fan of judged sports. Yes, they are sports. Yes, I am biased because I play one. I'd like to see more of them in the Olympics, but I think figure skating needs to go.

Figure skating has been haunted by secret judging deals for years. The IOC should remove figure skating from the Olympics unless the Int'l Skating Union resolves the pairs issue quickly, gets through the Olympics with no more controversy and lays out a plan to clean house and prevent future collusion. There's always bias in judged sports, but the level of bias in figure skating seems ridiculous to me.
posted by neuroshred at 9:39 AM on February 13, 2002

Thank you for that post litlnemo, very well done!
posted by Eric Lloyd NYC at 2:56 PM on February 13, 2002

Thanks, Eric.

litlnemo is the closest here to an ice skating judge unless someone would like to prove me wrong. Maybe B&S did actually win. Did the crowd see the "illegal lift?"

Well, the lift isn't necessarily a huge factor in the scoring; apparently it's something this pair has been doing for quite some time. And they did win the technical mark. So I don't think the lift made much difference.

(certain elements in a program have to be performed, if they're not, automatic point deduction)

Clarifying figure skating scoring a little bit more -- in the long program it's not an issue of deductions. Yes, the short program has specific items that must be performed, and deductions if they are not performed correctly (so, last night, Todd Eldredge messed up two elements in his short program and they had no choice but to deduct nearly a full point from his score. Skated clean, the program would have probably earned 5.8/5.9 in technical.)

The long program, or "free skate," is different. Until recently, there were no required elements in the free skate -- the skaters were free to do anything in the free skate, and they are only judged on what they do correctly -- not what they fail to do. So if a skater falls on a triple sal in the long program, she isn't given a deduction for falling -- she just isn't given credit for the sal. If the fall affects the flow of the program negatively, though, it would have some impact on the presentation mark. (Note that Sikharulidze's step-out on the double axel the other night had a perfect recovery, so probably no impact on the presentation mark, but a little on the tech mark, for not cleanly completing the jump.)

And scores are relative -- so if I go out there and do a flip and a lutz beautifully, with no falls, but another skater goes out and does a double flip, a double lutz, and then falls on the double axel, she is going to get a higher score than I do, based on what she did in comparison to what I did -- not the fact that she fell on an element.

In recent years they have added some very minimal requirements to the long program, that it must have to be well-rounded (such as "it must have a footwork sequence" or something like that). But it's still an issue of being scored on what you do, not on meeting specific requirements like the short program.

Figure skating has been haunted by secret judging deals for years. The IOC should remove figure skating from the Olympics

Ha. Figure skating is the IOC's and the networks' big money maker. It's not going anywhere.

I don't see this result as any obvious sign of bias, though. The competition was close enough to go either way. "the level of bias in figure skating seems ridiculous"? No, I think it's more likely to be cultural issues in style between Eastern and Western judges and skaters. Some put higher values on one thing, some prefer another. Is that bias? Perhaps the ISU (skating's governing body) needs to do something to flatten out those stylistic differences, but I'm not sure it's bad.

In roller skating, the sport I've been competing in lately, there is a noticeable difference between Northwest judges and judges from back East, and it is frustrating sometimes, but on the other hand, it's something I know about and something I can try to prepare for. I know what they are looking for. I don't see it as a sign of corruption.

Having said that, sure, it's certainly possible that at the highest levels, ice skating is rotten to the core. And if so, I want it dealt with. But I don't see this event as the obvious proof of corruption that so many do -- and I say that as a big fan of S&P and Canadian skaters in general. (I live in Seattle but for years I followed skating on CBC.)

Last March I sat in an arena in Vancouver, at the World Championships, and watched Michelle Kwan defeat Irina Slutskaya. All the people around me thought Irina was robbed. I thought Michelle won on sheer skating quality that Irina did not have. (The presentation mark, basically.) Was the fact that the audience didn't unanimously support Michelle's win a sign of judging corruption? No, it was just a close event and could have gone either way. That's all I think this pairs event was. It was close, it was great, and people need to accept that and let it play out. Sure, an investigation wouldn't hurt. But let's not let this poison the rest of the sport and the remaining events.
posted by litlnemo at 5:23 PM on February 13, 2002

Dear ESPN/CNN/NBC/NYTimes/Washington Post,
You are doing yourselves and your readers/viewers a disservice if you do not hire someone like Wendi Dunlap rather than the numbwits you're curently employing to cover figure skating.

Me
posted by owillis at 5:27 PM on February 13, 2002

Thank you Wendi, for bringing to light what some of us have thought twice of saying these past few days. I am a Canadian and I root for my country in every sport no matter what. I'm far from an expert at figure skate judging, but I did notice the unison errors you mentioned, and so I was a little baffled when everyone said Sale and Pelletier performed a flawless program. I found the Russians much more in unison, and in turn, a lot cleaner in their skate.

That is not to say the judging isn't completely without fault, since it has been quite clear for some time. This problem needs to be dealt with, but for this particular controversy, the results could have gone either way.
posted by dai at 10:58 PM on February 13, 2002

The Age newspaper: Ice-skating judge was 'pressured'
posted by kv at 4:05 PM on February 14, 2002

Oh man Wendi, if I only read about you sooner. Sarah Hughes was my neighbor growing up (still is to my parents) and recently decided to ditch her olympic threads for a new look (within the last 3 weeks). I would have definately made her aware of your costume creations had I known...also: it's 5 a.m. and Im posting to metafilter--please add me to your sleep deprivation mailing list!
Cool hobby, keep those creations coming :)
posted by Eric Lloyd NYC at 2:24 AM on February 18, 2002