Top, Bottom, Left, Right
February 14, 2015 7:07 PM Subscribe
Tony Zhou looks at the quadrant system with scenes from Nicolas Winding Refn’s film Drive, geometric staging with Akira Kurosawa's The Bad Sleep Well, and character decision with Bong Joon-ho's Snowpiercer.
(Previous FPPs on MeFi Favorite Tony Zhou.)
(Previous FPPs on MeFi Favorite Tony Zhou.)
Good heavens, yes--Kurosawa and geometry! I try to get my students to see this whenever I teach The Bad Sleep Well or Ran (especially when the character whose reactions you absolutely need to see is in the background or at the corner of a triangle, rather than in the foreground or the apex).
posted by thomas j wise at 7:59 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 7:59 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Tony Zhou makes me want to be a cinematographer, it hits like a brick to my head every time I see these. Someone give him a goddamn prize.
posted by tychotesla at 8:06 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by tychotesla at 8:06 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Tony Zhou makes me want to be a cinematographer
He makes me want to rewatch everything I've seen already.
I must say that I like his switch to these to shorter, tighter EFAP posts.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:17 PM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
He makes me want to rewatch everything I've seen already.
I must say that I like his switch to these to shorter, tighter EFAP posts.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:17 PM on February 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also The Bad Sleep Well is the Best Kurosawa film of all time. OF ALL TIME
posted by Doleful Creature at 8:27 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Doleful Creature at 8:27 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I never consciously picked that up about snowpiercer, but looking at it now it makes a lot of sense. Especially with the ideas of progress and revolution that the movie deals with. I can't say anything else without spoiling it, but the composition of the final scene makes a lot of sense in regards to Zhou's frame analysis.
posted by codacorolla at 8:37 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 8:37 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
This smells like golden ratio BS.
posted by Brocktoon at 8:53 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Brocktoon at 8:53 PM on February 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's nice to read something about Snowpiercer that deals with something other than the shock/schlock value of the film. It's stuck with me a lot, partially for the shock value, partially because of Boston's endless snows and transportation woes, but also because it was a well-made, well filmed, well acted movie. I couldn't put that in to words very well - it's nice to see a better analysis than I can provide.
posted by maryr at 9:04 PM on February 14, 2015
posted by maryr at 9:04 PM on February 14, 2015
It's hardly BS. Everything he covers tend to be established terms in either photography or cinematography. Quadrants are one way to break up an image, another way (that anyone who takes a 101 level photography course learns about) is the rule of thirds, that uses a 3x3 grid instead. What he's really talking about is where you put points of interest in a shot. Bad photography and bad filmmaking tend to put those points of interest all over the place (making it hard to focus) or make the focus something irrelevant to the action. Good filmmaking can make these mistakes on purpose, so long as it has an element of intentionality.
The snowpiercer video is really about eyeline, since the jist of Zhou's analysis rests on where the protag. is looking in a given shot.
Kurosawa's geometric staging is about visual imagery, and doing more with a film than present boring, static images. I mean, even the dudes on Red Letter Media talk about this with regards to their critiques of the prequels.
If you're interested in a Zhou analysis that uses more accessible language, the way he talks about editing and shot cuts in his video about Satoshi Kon is worth a look.
I think that Zhou uses a bit of his own terminology, but all of these techniques are film 101 material. It's the basic language of film, and Zhou presents really engaging and interesting examples for it.
posted by codacorolla at 9:10 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
The snowpiercer video is really about eyeline, since the jist of Zhou's analysis rests on where the protag. is looking in a given shot.
Kurosawa's geometric staging is about visual imagery, and doing more with a film than present boring, static images. I mean, even the dudes on Red Letter Media talk about this with regards to their critiques of the prequels.
If you're interested in a Zhou analysis that uses more accessible language, the way he talks about editing and shot cuts in his video about Satoshi Kon is worth a look.
I think that Zhou uses a bit of his own terminology, but all of these techniques are film 101 material. It's the basic language of film, and Zhou presents really engaging and interesting examples for it.
posted by codacorolla at 9:10 PM on February 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Winding Refn's next film after Drive, Only God Forgives, may be even more geometric. So much of the movie is centered in frame that it felt like a homage to Kubrick.
posted by thecjm at 9:11 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 9:11 PM on February 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think that certain directors reward close attention like this, but the characterizations of what Winding Refn or Kurosawa are actually doing, cinematographically, seem a bit arbitrary. Take the "triangle" from "The Bad Sleep Well," for example: there's lots to see in watching the bottom vs. top half, as well. Watch Mifune's hands: he acts casual, going about his business until the money drops, and then his hands clench into fists.
There are lots of ways to think about the dynamism and composition of good work like this, but they're all ultimately interpretation. Experiencing the thing itself can produce many interpretations, but I'm happy to watch and enjoy the interplay of differing interpretations itself.
posted by clockzero at 9:12 PM on February 14, 2015
There are lots of ways to think about the dynamism and composition of good work like this, but they're all ultimately interpretation. Experiencing the thing itself can produce many interpretations, but I'm happy to watch and enjoy the interplay of differing interpretations itself.
posted by clockzero at 9:12 PM on February 14, 2015
I never consciously picked that up about snowpiercer, but looking at it now it makes a lot of sense.
That's like saying you never consciously picked up that Pulp Fiction was told out of chronological order. That left to right lateral movement couldn't really be more obvious. Watching Snowpiercer felt like I was playing Super Mario Brothers; it was two hours of trying to move to the right. Indeed, I wonder if you mirrored the image so that they were trying to move to the left, whether it would feel any different.
I'm sure someone made this point in another Tony Zhou thread, but I wish Christopher Nolan would try to incorporate some of these very fundamentals of spatial continuity to his action scenes.
posted by alidarbac at 10:28 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's like saying you never consciously picked up that Pulp Fiction was told out of chronological order. That left to right lateral movement couldn't really be more obvious. Watching Snowpiercer felt like I was playing Super Mario Brothers; it was two hours of trying to move to the right. Indeed, I wonder if you mirrored the image so that they were trying to move to the left, whether it would feel any different.
I'm sure someone made this point in another Tony Zhou thread, but I wish Christopher Nolan would try to incorporate some of these very fundamentals of spatial continuity to his action scenes.
posted by alidarbac at 10:28 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's like saying you never consciously picked up that Pulp Fiction was told out of chronological order. That left to right lateral movement couldn't really be more obvious. Watching Snowpiercer felt like I was playing Super Mario Brothers; it was two hours of trying to move to the right.
I disagree. Chronology is an easy thing to pick up because narrative is something that you have no choice but to pay attention to, but shot positioning is much more subliminal, which I think is why Zhou makes these shorts. I did pick up on the shots going up the train vertically in the frame, but the left to right symbolism wasn't something I noticed.
posted by codacorolla at 10:32 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I disagree. Chronology is an easy thing to pick up because narrative is something that you have no choice but to pay attention to, but shot positioning is much more subliminal, which I think is why Zhou makes these shorts. I did pick up on the shots going up the train vertically in the frame, but the left to right symbolism wasn't something I noticed.
posted by codacorolla at 10:32 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
but the characterizations of what Winding Refn or Kurosawa are actually doing, cinematographically, seem a bit arbitrary.
It doesn't seem that arbitrary after you watch a bit of Kurosawa. While he might not be walking into every scene saying "lets make triangles", he is much more likely to include three or more parties each with a strong presence and different motivation in the same shot. And he is more likely to relay each group's interests compositionally and via human signals, as well as verbally.
Many things result from that. One of which is triangles of interest.
posted by tychotesla at 10:43 PM on February 14, 2015
It doesn't seem that arbitrary after you watch a bit of Kurosawa. While he might not be walking into every scene saying "lets make triangles", he is much more likely to include three or more parties each with a strong presence and different motivation in the same shot. And he is more likely to relay each group's interests compositionally and via human signals, as well as verbally.
Many things result from that. One of which is triangles of interest.
posted by tychotesla at 10:43 PM on February 14, 2015
Also The Bad Sleep Well is the Best Kurosawa film of all time. OF ALL TIME
Agreed. I have seen a lot of Japanese films but this one put me in a very strange mood for over a week. I could not deal with it. I'm not sure I could go back and watch it again, without having trouble processing the experience.
Anyway, it's not "The Bad Sleep Well." To me it's "Warui Yatsu hodo yoku nemuru. The key here is "hodo" which means a lot of things. I can only parse this title as "The worst men sleep best. I could barely sleep for a week after seeing it.
I would be interested in Zhou's take on Yasujiro Ozu. He's famous for the way he blocked his scenes, its very distinctive. Ozu tends to do the Rule of Thirds a lot, he even switches between quadrants and thirds (even diagonal thirds). Unfortunately, in that scene, you get a lot of actors plopped down right in the center, occupying the middle third, Ozu uses the other thirds for contrast in depth.
But his earlier films have an even more distinctive blocking on indoor scenes. Here is the first interior shot of "Late Spring." I drew the thirds onto it. Then he dollies forward until the room fills the screen, and we have two groups of actors, halves left and right. But notice the backgrounds. The row of women on the left, facing right, have a rigid grid behind them, while the two ladies facing the camera are in front of an open window looking outside to a garden. We have left/right halves, but still the action is vertically compressed into thirds, the top third and bottom third are full of parallel lines that give us a feeling of a low ceiling and high floor.
Ozu constantly uses architectural elements to create quadrants or thirds. For indoor scenes, the camera is almost always at the eye level of someone sitting on the floor, and usually facing square with the walls. The frame may be bounded by a person sitting motionless, or an strong linear architectural element. Let's look at the camera positions of one scene, a tea ceremony. Scene one, notice the woman standing with the dark post behind her, the woman on the left of the frame, and then the central action of the tea ceremony on the right. The room is not square to the camera, but the lines of the walls make strong perspective, which are interrupted by the black post and the white wall on the left, making our two sides of the quadrants for the main actors, an odd sort of thirds for the background, and a triangle of actors with the leftmost barely implied (although we clearly know we are behind her. In the second scene, the camera has moved to isolate the woman performing the ceremony, the other woman is off the screen, leaving us with the shoulder of the woman in front of us, implying we are witnesses.The shoji screen takes up the whole background, more square to the camera, with strong vertical elements cutting the scene into asymmetrical thirds, from left to right, the witness, the woman, and the tea set. The woman seems taller, but this is only because of the close up (yes I counted the squares behind her).
Ozu was a genius about blocking, I haven't seen any scholarly studies of whether he had any influence on Kurosawa, but he had to. I have seen Ozu film studies books full of stills like these pairs I showed, that used to be about the only way you could even see a hint of these rare films. Now they're all restored in the Criterion Collection and pirated on YouTube.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:58 PM on February 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
Agreed. I have seen a lot of Japanese films but this one put me in a very strange mood for over a week. I could not deal with it. I'm not sure I could go back and watch it again, without having trouble processing the experience.
Anyway, it's not "The Bad Sleep Well." To me it's "Warui Yatsu hodo yoku nemuru. The key here is "hodo" which means a lot of things. I can only parse this title as "The worst men sleep best. I could barely sleep for a week after seeing it.
I would be interested in Zhou's take on Yasujiro Ozu. He's famous for the way he blocked his scenes, its very distinctive. Ozu tends to do the Rule of Thirds a lot, he even switches between quadrants and thirds (even diagonal thirds). Unfortunately, in that scene, you get a lot of actors plopped down right in the center, occupying the middle third, Ozu uses the other thirds for contrast in depth.
But his earlier films have an even more distinctive blocking on indoor scenes. Here is the first interior shot of "Late Spring." I drew the thirds onto it. Then he dollies forward until the room fills the screen, and we have two groups of actors, halves left and right. But notice the backgrounds. The row of women on the left, facing right, have a rigid grid behind them, while the two ladies facing the camera are in front of an open window looking outside to a garden. We have left/right halves, but still the action is vertically compressed into thirds, the top third and bottom third are full of parallel lines that give us a feeling of a low ceiling and high floor.
Ozu constantly uses architectural elements to create quadrants or thirds. For indoor scenes, the camera is almost always at the eye level of someone sitting on the floor, and usually facing square with the walls. The frame may be bounded by a person sitting motionless, or an strong linear architectural element. Let's look at the camera positions of one scene, a tea ceremony. Scene one, notice the woman standing with the dark post behind her, the woman on the left of the frame, and then the central action of the tea ceremony on the right. The room is not square to the camera, but the lines of the walls make strong perspective, which are interrupted by the black post and the white wall on the left, making our two sides of the quadrants for the main actors, an odd sort of thirds for the background, and a triangle of actors with the leftmost barely implied (although we clearly know we are behind her. In the second scene, the camera has moved to isolate the woman performing the ceremony, the other woman is off the screen, leaving us with the shoulder of the woman in front of us, implying we are witnesses.The shoji screen takes up the whole background, more square to the camera, with strong vertical elements cutting the scene into asymmetrical thirds, from left to right, the witness, the woman, and the tea set. The woman seems taller, but this is only because of the close up (yes I counted the squares behind her).
Ozu was a genius about blocking, I haven't seen any scholarly studies of whether he had any influence on Kurosawa, but he had to. I have seen Ozu film studies books full of stills like these pairs I showed, that used to be about the only way you could even see a hint of these rare films. Now they're all restored in the Criterion Collection and pirated on YouTube.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:58 PM on February 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
Speaking of dividing scenes architecturally and stuff, there's a fun little animated sequence at the beginning of Mamoru Hosoda's ad for the Louis Vuitton/Takeshi Murakami luxury good graft.
The movement between the window frames, followed by falling down the rabbit hole is such an obvious visual metaphor that I have used this ad as a way of demonstrating to naifs that art critics aren't just making shit up. In other words, directors think about the things they do, and you can be there with them if you pay attention.
posted by tychotesla at 11:34 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
The movement between the window frames, followed by falling down the rabbit hole is such an obvious visual metaphor that I have used this ad as a way of demonstrating to naifs that art critics aren't just making shit up. In other words, directors think about the things they do, and you can be there with them if you pay attention.
posted by tychotesla at 11:34 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am not a big fan of Murakami but I love the space in that video, it is so NOT SuperFlat.
posted by charlie don't surf at 11:50 PM on February 14, 2015
posted by charlie don't surf at 11:50 PM on February 14, 2015
If you're like me and you want Tony to do this as often as possible, support him on Patreon (like a kickstarter subscription to give people who create stuff you like money on a recurring basis, like distributed patronage).
posted by flippant at 12:36 AM on February 15, 2015
posted by flippant at 12:36 AM on February 15, 2015
The lateral left/right framing and movement in Snowpiercer was super obvious, but was also done well so that it was always transparently clear where you were and where the movement was going. The Drive quadrant breakdown was not something I had picked up on at all, though, so it was interesting to think back on the film. It is a very deliberate movie with not much that is accidental or extraneous, so I'm not surprised at the careful composition, and in fact it was careful enough that as a casual viewer I missed it entirely.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:06 AM on February 15, 2015
posted by Dip Flash at 6:06 AM on February 15, 2015
Great analysis as usual from Zhou, it almost makes me want to watch Drive again to see if I don't find it as insufferable as I did the first time I saw it.
posted by octothorpe at 6:15 AM on February 15, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 6:15 AM on February 15, 2015
I'm particularly glad that Tony used "The Imitation Game" as an example of lazy filmmaking and boring framing. Christ that film was an exercise in laziness. No surprise it's in the Oscar running for Best Picture. Formulaic, pandering, simple, predictable and banal filmmaking is exactly up the Oscars' alley!
posted by ReeMonster at 6:15 AM on February 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ReeMonster at 6:15 AM on February 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's hardly BS. Everything he covers tend to be established terms in either photography or cinematography. Quadrants are one way to break up an image, another way (that anyone who takes a 101 level photography course learns about) is the rule of thirds, that uses a 3x3 grid instead.
I actually just took a photography 101 class this past Fall and while it's helped my picture taking somewhat, it's really make me appreciate films a heck of a lot more. It's fun to be able to recognize the stuff that Zhou talks about while you're watching a movie.
posted by octothorpe at 6:36 AM on February 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I actually just took a photography 101 class this past Fall and while it's helped my picture taking somewhat, it's really make me appreciate films a heck of a lot more. It's fun to be able to recognize the stuff that Zhou talks about while you're watching a movie.
posted by octothorpe at 6:36 AM on February 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is there another movie that's so good up until the last 3mins, then so effectively destroyed by its ending as Snowpiercer?
Spend the entire movie setting up for the main character an agonizing choice between moral principal and practicality, then just as the moment of choice arrives, nope! Sorry can't do it! ::explosions::
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:06 AM on February 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Spend the entire movie setting up for the main character an agonizing choice between moral principal and practicality, then just as the moment of choice arrives, nope! Sorry can't do it! ::explosions::
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:06 AM on February 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Since its premise most strongly reminded me of The Big Bus, my expectations had nowhere to go but up.
posted by XMLicious at 8:23 AM on February 15, 2015
posted by XMLicious at 8:23 AM on February 15, 2015
Is there another movie that's so good up until the last 3mins, then so effectively destroyed by its ending as Snowpiercer?
Spend the entire movie setting up for the main character an agonizing choice between moral principal and practicality, then just as the moment of choice arrives, nope! Sorry can't do it! ::explosions::
Dude! Not cool!
posted by clockzero at 9:57 AM on February 15, 2015
Spend the entire movie setting up for the main character an agonizing choice between moral principal and practicality, then just as the moment of choice arrives, nope! Sorry can't do it! ::explosions::
Dude! Not cool!
posted by clockzero at 9:57 AM on February 15, 2015
T.D. Strange, it's been a while since I saw Snowpiercer but I seem to remember a clear choice being made prior to ::explosions::
posted by crashlanding at 12:26 PM on February 15, 2015
posted by crashlanding at 12:26 PM on February 15, 2015
I really enjoyed these and ended up watching a bunch of them. My 13-year-old is interested in film & I think he'll really enjoy them as well. Thanks for the intro to Zhou.
posted by not that girl at 2:31 PM on February 15, 2015
posted by not that girl at 2:31 PM on February 15, 2015
I don't want to spoil too much, but I think a choice is made in Snowpiercer, it's just not the one that either the characters or the audience had been expecting.
posted by codacorolla at 2:51 PM on February 15, 2015
posted by codacorolla at 2:51 PM on February 15, 2015
Slight derail here.
Anyone else having problems playing these?
My three year old Mac Mini will not play most Vimeo these days and I am somewhat curious as to why.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 9:11 PM on February 15, 2015
Anyone else having problems playing these?
My three year old Mac Mini will not play most Vimeo these days and I am somewhat curious as to why.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 9:11 PM on February 15, 2015
Tony Zhou is great. Thanks for this.
posted by Sticherbeast at 3:53 AM on February 16, 2015
posted by Sticherbeast at 3:53 AM on February 16, 2015
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posted by oceanjesse at 7:39 PM on February 14, 2015 [2 favorites]