"My name comes out of my mouth in English."
March 5, 2015 9:16 PM Subscribe
The Right Words to Say: On Being Read as White (SLToast/Butter)
I can't speak to one's individual experience and the author is probably a little young on this front, but the Gypsy Kings as a signifier of anything other than the worst bit of world music exoticism in every single coffee shop in the country for five solid years? Really?
posted by 99_ at 12:09 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by 99_ at 12:09 AM on March 6, 2015
I have fond memories of dancing to a tape of the Gypsy Kings in the church social hall for my friend's quinceanera in probably 1990. The only quinceanera I've ever attended. Between her family and her pasty midwest schoolmates, we all had a blast.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:30 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:30 AM on March 6, 2015
please let's not derail this on the Gypsy Kings.
posted by philip-random at 12:47 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 12:47 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
guys we can't all have moms with the super-hip musical stylings like yours
posted by kagredon at 2:00 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 2:00 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have a friend, whose family is from Mexico, who passes for white. I've noticed that he makes it a point to talk with visibly Latino/a people in Spanish pretty much whenever he encounters them and (in my limited capacity to understand their conversation) that he often mentions his connection to Mexico and the time he spent visiting family there as a kid. I've had some understanding of why he did this before, but this article makes it a lot more clear and vivid for me.
posted by overglow at 2:46 AM on March 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by overglow at 2:46 AM on March 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I like the article, but it feels like there has to be a better term than "white". You can be a full-on Latino and full-on white (not "passing for white" or "looking white"), depending on how Spanish your family background was. There's a whole census category for it. The only thing I can come up with off the top of my head is "passing for non-Latino", which doesn't roll off the tongue.
posted by Bugbread at 3:11 AM on March 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 3:11 AM on March 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
If I were to meet her and I correctly recognised that her mother came from Mexico, how would I make that recognition apparent?
posted by Segundus at 3:30 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by Segundus at 3:30 AM on March 6, 2015
I like the article, but it feels like there has to be a better term than "white".
How "white" is defined regarding Mexican-American can be confusing. My (white Anglo) family is in a small minority in a community that is 98% Mexican-American. I am identified and recognized by others as a "white" person, and the term is clearly used in a way that distinguishes me from everyone else. But when it comes to something like the US Census, 78% of my neighbors identify as "white." Making things tricky again is that when the demographic report for my daughter's elementary school was released, 0.7% of students were white. (Which is how my daughter got the nickname ".7"). I have a sense that the number of my own students who think of themselves as white (in a group that is 99% Mexican or Mexican-American) is around 20%, but I haven't specifically asked.) So there are a lot of people who are white for the census, Mexican for the school, maybe think of themselves as both white and Latino, but call me white in a way that marks me as different than themselves.
None of this is surprising, of course. Racial and ethnic identification is a weird and fluid thing. It's just interesting to be in a place where the answer to "how many of us are white?" could be 1%, 20%, or 78%, depending on who is asking.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:15 AM on March 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
How "white" is defined regarding Mexican-American can be confusing. My (white Anglo) family is in a small minority in a community that is 98% Mexican-American. I am identified and recognized by others as a "white" person, and the term is clearly used in a way that distinguishes me from everyone else. But when it comes to something like the US Census, 78% of my neighbors identify as "white." Making things tricky again is that when the demographic report for my daughter's elementary school was released, 0.7% of students were white. (Which is how my daughter got the nickname ".7"). I have a sense that the number of my own students who think of themselves as white (in a group that is 99% Mexican or Mexican-American) is around 20%, but I haven't specifically asked.) So there are a lot of people who are white for the census, Mexican for the school, maybe think of themselves as both white and Latino, but call me white in a way that marks me as different than themselves.
None of this is surprising, of course. Racial and ethnic identification is a weird and fluid thing. It's just interesting to be in a place where the answer to "how many of us are white?" could be 1%, 20%, or 78%, depending on who is asking.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 4:15 AM on March 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
My mom says that my voice sounds different when I speak in Spanish. She says I sound nicer.
Huh, this is the most interesting tidbit. I'm way meaner and more sarcastic in Spanish.
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:17 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Huh, this is the most interesting tidbit. I'm way meaner and more sarcastic in Spanish.
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:17 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is her goal really sympathy or is this a humblebrag about not being ever taken for Latina on first glance?
Also for what it's worth, looking Conquistadorish goes a long way in Mexico (There's racism there too)
Does she mind being taken for a White there?
posted by Renoroc at 6:27 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also for what it's worth, looking Conquistadorish goes a long way in Mexico (There's racism there too)
Does she mind being taken for a White there?
posted by Renoroc at 6:27 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I shop on a street in Boyle Heights, and I'm always addressed in Spanish. I have dark hair and eyes, but I don't think anything about me reads as Latina--the shopkeepers address everyone in Spanish. Doesn't happen to me in the Beverly Hills Whole Foods. Am I passing? If so, where?
posted by Ideefixe at 6:36 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 6:36 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
This article made me cry. I'm Latina, but I can also pass for white (Mexican mother, white American father), but my mother died when I was very young, so I don't even her around anymore, and so often, I feel like I have to defend my heritage--"No, I'm not kidding. I'm really Hispanic. Mexican, actually." So many people think I'm joking, or that "Surely, you can't be Mexican! You're so light! Puerto Rican, maybe. Or maybe Cuban."
posted by PearlRose at 6:39 AM on March 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by PearlRose at 6:39 AM on March 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
Is her goal really sympathy or is this a humblebrag about not being ever taken for Latina on first glance?
Also for what it's worth, looking Conquistadorish goes a long way in Mexico (There's racism there too)
Does she mind being taken for a White there?
Trust me, there is already a lot of weird guilt and sadness (and anger, and pride, and confusion) bound up in being white-passing, and knowing that it shields you from consequences of more overt racism. The writer of the article know that there's racism in Mexico, and in the U.S. There's a whole fucking paragraph about the privilege granted to her by being white-passing, FFS, we didn't need you to lecture us all about it. But having a part of who you are be neglected, negated, overlooked--both by people who read you as being (only) white-like-them, and those from your own culture who view you as an outsider is not much fun either. Even better is when people continue to this after they know your history, because now you're not _____ enough. And you feel awful for even thinking about this, because of course it's better to have that problem than to face the stereotypes, sexualization, violence that comes as being coded as "other", and that becomes another layer of how you're not "really" a person of color.
I knew, knew there'd be at least one comment like this, and at first I thought "I'm not going to post this to Mefi because I don't need that shit," and then I said "it's fucking Women's March, push some fucking limits", and so now here we are.
posted by kagredon at 6:40 AM on March 6, 2015 [40 favorites]
Also for what it's worth, looking Conquistadorish goes a long way in Mexico (There's racism there too)
Does she mind being taken for a White there?
Trust me, there is already a lot of weird guilt and sadness (and anger, and pride, and confusion) bound up in being white-passing, and knowing that it shields you from consequences of more overt racism. The writer of the article know that there's racism in Mexico, and in the U.S. There's a whole fucking paragraph about the privilege granted to her by being white-passing, FFS, we didn't need you to lecture us all about it. But having a part of who you are be neglected, negated, overlooked--both by people who read you as being (only) white-like-them, and those from your own culture who view you as an outsider is not much fun either. Even better is when people continue to this after they know your history, because now you're not _____ enough. And you feel awful for even thinking about this, because of course it's better to have that problem than to face the stereotypes, sexualization, violence that comes as being coded as "other", and that becomes another layer of how you're not "really" a person of color.
I knew, knew there'd be at least one comment like this, and at first I thought "I'm not going to post this to Mefi because I don't need that shit," and then I said "it's fucking Women's March, push some fucking limits", and so now here we are.
posted by kagredon at 6:40 AM on March 6, 2015 [40 favorites]
I lived in a 60 to 70% Latino neighborhood in Miami for 2 years and people often addressed me in Spanish at first. I have dark hair and eyes but a ruddy complexion and Irish potato features, so I was kinda surprised. Later on I mentioned this to a Latin Floridian guy and he told me that people probably assumed I was a light skinned Cuban. Assumptions change with territory I guess. It's a damn slippery fish.
posted by jonmc at 6:50 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 6:50 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also for what it's worth, looking Conquistadorish goes a long way in Mexico (There's racism there too)
Does she mind being taken for a White there?
Well, as of two decades ago guero (pardon my umlaut) had rather ambiguous valance, but indio was entirely negative. While light-skin privilege is real, the greater pressure is to look 'normal'. It just so happens that in the US, normal is coded as white while there it would be somewhere between fair mestizo and mediterranean.
Interestingly the discriptor applicable to me is entirely neutral, quite unlike its English cognate.
posted by Octaviuz at 6:51 AM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Does she mind being taken for a White there?
Well, as of two decades ago guero (pardon my umlaut) had rather ambiguous valance, but indio was entirely negative. While light-skin privilege is real, the greater pressure is to look 'normal'. It just so happens that in the US, normal is coded as white while there it would be somewhere between fair mestizo and mediterranean.
Interestingly the discriptor applicable to me is entirely neutral, quite unlike its English cognate.
posted by Octaviuz at 6:51 AM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
It sounds like a lot of the feelings she describes relate to being a third culture kid as well.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:57 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:57 AM on March 6, 2015
thanks for the post; my daughter is Mexican but I guess could pass for white (to my Indian eyes), and will no doubt encounter these sorts of things one day. Her name is Maya; yesterday she said that in Spanish her name is Ma-zha, and in English it's Maya. Such a subtle difference that I could barely detect it, but it's there. We spent ages trying to pick a name that would be easy to pronounce, and already the differences are appearing. I feel that being mixed is a lot more tolerated/accepted here in Mexico (or atleast the circles I move around in ).
posted by dhruva at 7:04 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by dhruva at 7:04 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
This article made me cry. I'm Latina, but I can also pass for white (Mexican mother, white American father), but my mother died when I was very young, so I don't even her around anymore, and so often, I feel like I have to defend my heritage--"No, I'm not kidding. I'm really Hispanic. Mexican, actually." So many people think I'm joking, or that "Surely, you can't be Mexican! You're so light! Puerto Rican, maybe. Or maybe Cuban."
Yup, I like to remind people that saying to me "But I would have never guessed you were Mexican!" is not the compliment they seem to think it is.
posted by Kitteh at 7:29 AM on March 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yup, I like to remind people that saying to me "But I would have never guessed you were Mexican!" is not the compliment they seem to think it is.
posted by Kitteh at 7:29 AM on March 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
This is very much an American thing. I wouldn't think that Mexican and White are separate categories. White is about race and Mexican is about ethnicity. They are orthogonal categories in my mind. In my mind she's not passing; she apparently is white. And she's Mexican and that identity is important to her and she wants people to know that she's Mexican. This isn't (to me) any different than being white and wanting people to know you're Polish or British or German or anything else. And even if I didn't feel like she is white, I wouldn't call it "passing" I would just all it being mistaken for something else. People frequently think I'm Romanian, but I don't think of that as "passing" as Romanian.
I realize in that in the US context it is different. Outside of the census (she answers white on the census, right?) white and mexican are not orthogonal categories in the US. But I find that strange and exotic. Due to the discrimination Mexicans face, there is a sense in which the word "passing" makes sense, I know. But it still reads weird to me.
When I lived in the US I found it strange that once people learned my ethnicity I would be expected to identify with an identity (Latina) that seems foreign and odd to me. I identify with my ethnicity, but not with any panethnicity. I was never sure if the right thing to do was to ignore/accept the ethnicity being thrust upon me or somehow make it clear that it wasn't part of my identity. Just accepting the identify feels odd to me, like letting people continue to think I'm Romanian when I'm not. On the other hand, "Latina" is a more politically salient category in the US than Romanian, so the problem with the second option would have been that while it would have been accurate (I don't identify as Latina. I don't feel any shared identity with people of other ethnicities who share a language but not culture with me) I worried that it would seem less like clarifying my own sense of my identity and more like attempting to disassociate myself from others.
This was interesting. Identities are funny things. Thanks for posting.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:34 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I realize in that in the US context it is different. Outside of the census (she answers white on the census, right?) white and mexican are not orthogonal categories in the US. But I find that strange and exotic. Due to the discrimination Mexicans face, there is a sense in which the word "passing" makes sense, I know. But it still reads weird to me.
When I lived in the US I found it strange that once people learned my ethnicity I would be expected to identify with an identity (Latina) that seems foreign and odd to me. I identify with my ethnicity, but not with any panethnicity. I was never sure if the right thing to do was to ignore/accept the ethnicity being thrust upon me or somehow make it clear that it wasn't part of my identity. Just accepting the identify feels odd to me, like letting people continue to think I'm Romanian when I'm not. On the other hand, "Latina" is a more politically salient category in the US than Romanian, so the problem with the second option would have been that while it would have been accurate (I don't identify as Latina. I don't feel any shared identity with people of other ethnicities who share a language but not culture with me) I worried that it would seem less like clarifying my own sense of my identity and more like attempting to disassociate myself from others.
This was interesting. Identities are funny things. Thanks for posting.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:34 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I found her thoughts amusingly familiar. I'm the American-born child of German immigrants who grew up in the US in the 70s and 80s. Being seen as German (at least during those years) did not carry anything like the baggage of being seen as Mexican. But even though there was no real visible difference between us kids and our peers, we *knew* that our family was different and didn't quite fit in. We ate somewhat weird food, we often spoke a different language at home, we didn't do the same things that the other families did. And there's this kind of weirdness that comes from knowing you're different but not being seen by others as different.
Once in college, a friend of mine with a Korean background was told that his English was very good. He'd had ancestors in Hawaii going back four generations. No one would have dreamed of telling me that despite the fact that my parents were much more recently "off the boat".
posted by Slothrup at 7:46 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Once in college, a friend of mine with a Korean background was told that his English was very good. He'd had ancestors in Hawaii going back four generations. No one would have dreamed of telling me that despite the fact that my parents were much more recently "off the boat".
posted by Slothrup at 7:46 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have sad news for her: she's White. On my census form, I have to select "Non-Latino Caucasian." As opposed to Latino Caucasians.
posted by charlie don't surf at 7:46 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by charlie don't surf at 7:46 AM on March 6, 2015
Charlie: Aren't they two separate questions? One on race and then a separate question on Hispanic (not Latino) or not origins? I know they used to be, but I also know the US census race question has changed a number of times. I think for some reason many researchers merge them into one set of categories when they analyze data (Non-hispanic white, non-hispanic black, and then mysteriously lump all the hispanic together), but on the census form they were separate.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:54 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:54 AM on March 6, 2015
Oh FFS... bringing the (current) US census categories into a conversation about race is like bringing "but the OED defines feminism as..." into a conversation about rape culture. It's a bullshit way of minimizing people's complex experiences on a delicate subject.
posted by joedan at 7:56 AM on March 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by joedan at 7:56 AM on March 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
I like the article, but it feels like there has to be a better term than "white". You can be a full-on Latino and full-on white (not "passing for white" or "looking white"), depending on how Spanish your family background was. There's a whole census category for it. The only thing I can come up with off the top of my head is "passing for non-Latino", which doesn't roll off the tongue.
posted by Bugbread
Blanco?
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:02 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by Bugbread
Blanco?
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:02 AM on March 6, 2015
Joedan: The census categories are a crystalized version of cultural understandings of race. They have changed over the years because understandings have changed. And precisely because they are so poor at capturing what are complex identities, understanding how people use and understand survey question categories has been a vehicle for reserachers to understand how people think about racial identities. For example,
how do parents fill in race for mixed-race children?
How do people who think of their race as Latino process, interpret and complete a census question that doesn't allow that option?
What are the health and inequality effects of feeling like the category you identify with is not the category others perceive you as? How do the ways we classify race hide racial identities and make racial inequalities less visible?
How have the ways in which people who are ethnically or phenotypically similar interpret and respond to these categories changed over time?
What factors other than ancestry or appearance govern how people choose from among the available categories?
The point of thinking about fixed categories in surveys isn't to say "Well then, that settles it!" It's a tool to understand how the ways in which identities are varied and fluid and messy. When real world identities run up against inflexible "Choose one and only one" categories, the ways in which this is difficult and the ways in which people eventually do it anyway can help us to understand how racial identities work.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:15 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
how do parents fill in race for mixed-race children?
How do people who think of their race as Latino process, interpret and complete a census question that doesn't allow that option?
What are the health and inequality effects of feeling like the category you identify with is not the category others perceive you as? How do the ways we classify race hide racial identities and make racial inequalities less visible?
How have the ways in which people who are ethnically or phenotypically similar interpret and respond to these categories changed over time?
What factors other than ancestry or appearance govern how people choose from among the available categories?
The point of thinking about fixed categories in surveys isn't to say "Well then, that settles it!" It's a tool to understand how the ways in which identities are varied and fluid and messy. When real world identities run up against inflexible "Choose one and only one" categories, the ways in which this is difficult and the ways in which people eventually do it anyway can help us to understand how racial identities work.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:15 AM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
You're right that there is a nuanced way of talking about the census categories. My response was to charlie's post. Saying I have sad news for her: she's White. is precisely saying "Well then, that settles it!"
posted by joedan at 8:26 AM on March 6, 2015
posted by joedan at 8:26 AM on March 6, 2015
For those who are mentioning that the US Census defines Latinos as "White", so therefore, we are white, well, anyone of Arabic descent is supposed to select "White" as well.
White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.
As far as the US Census is concerned, there's no difference between Caucasian, Middle Eastern, or Hispanic. As far as America is concerned, though, there's a great deal of difference.
posted by PearlRose at 8:28 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian.
As far as the US Census is concerned, there's no difference between Caucasian, Middle Eastern, or Hispanic. As far as America is concerned, though, there's a great deal of difference.
posted by PearlRose at 8:28 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
When I travel in the Spanish-speaking world, people often assume I am from another Spanish-speaking country, ie, Spaniards thought I was Latin American, Mexicans thought I was Colombian. I had an Ecuadorian think I was Ecuadorian once, which blew my mind (I am WAY too tall for that). I have dark thick hair and olive skin so I look pretty Mediterranean (although, intriguingly enough, that is one area of the world where I have zero heritage).
They never think I am from their own country (except for the rogue Ecuadorian) because of my accent which I don't think I will ever shake, but I always thought it was interesting how I've been able to "pass" as Hispanic in the Spanish-speaking world, and yet no one here in the US would ever call me anything other than a white American.
I like the article, but it feels like there has to be a better term than "white". You can be a full-on Latino and full-on white (not "passing for white" or "looking white"), depending on how Spanish your family background was. There's a whole census category for it. The only thing I can come up with off the top of my head is "passing for non-Latino", which doesn't roll off the tongue.
posted by Bugbread
Blanco?
In Ecuador, that is a term for a boring uptight person, much like we say "whitebread" here in America!
posted by chainsofreedom at 8:29 AM on March 6, 2015
They never think I am from their own country (except for the rogue Ecuadorian) because of my accent which I don't think I will ever shake, but I always thought it was interesting how I've been able to "pass" as Hispanic in the Spanish-speaking world, and yet no one here in the US would ever call me anything other than a white American.
I like the article, but it feels like there has to be a better term than "white". You can be a full-on Latino and full-on white (not "passing for white" or "looking white"), depending on how Spanish your family background was. There's a whole census category for it. The only thing I can come up with off the top of my head is "passing for non-Latino", which doesn't roll off the tongue.
posted by Bugbread
Blanco?
In Ecuador, that is a term for a boring uptight person, much like we say "whitebread" here in America!
posted by chainsofreedom at 8:29 AM on March 6, 2015
I have sad news for her: she's White. On my census form, I have to select "Non-Latino Caucasian." As opposed to Latino Caucasians.
posted by charlie don't surf at 9:46 AM on March 6 [+][!]
Are you kidding me? You read the article and this is what you took away from it? charlie don't surf, your comment is a perfect example of the total erasure of her (and my) identity.
Count me as another light-skinned half-Latina girl who identified strongly with the article, down to Pío pío pío. Paging julietbanana to the brown courtesy phone.
It's funny how I'm often "not Latina enough," but I sure as hell was enough to be teased so relentlessly for it in grade school that I refused to learn Spanish from my dad. That's one of my biggest regrets -- both that I didn't learn, and that I let their teasing get inside me so much that I didn't claim my birthright.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:30 AM on March 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by charlie don't surf at 9:46 AM on March 6 [+][!]
Are you kidding me? You read the article and this is what you took away from it? charlie don't surf, your comment is a perfect example of the total erasure of her (and my) identity.
Count me as another light-skinned half-Latina girl who identified strongly with the article, down to Pío pío pío. Paging julietbanana to the brown courtesy phone.
It's funny how I'm often "not Latina enough," but I sure as hell was enough to be teased so relentlessly for it in grade school that I refused to learn Spanish from my dad. That's one of my biggest regrets -- both that I didn't learn, and that I let their teasing get inside me so much that I didn't claim my birthright.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:30 AM on March 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
that I refused to learn Spanish from my dad. That's one of my biggest regrets -- both that I didn't learn, and that I let their teasing get inside me so much that I didn't claim my birthright.
fiercecupcake, my mom has a very similar regret. When she married my dad and moved in with his parents while he finished school, my grandmother admonished her when she would see her speaking Spanish to small me and my sister. "They'll never need to know that," she would tell her. So my mom--young, impressionable and lonely--never taught us her language. I love my grandparents very much but I really wish they had never said that to her. She regrets that neither my sister or I can speak Spanish, and my maternal grandmother doesn't really speak English so phone calls have been very difficult my entire life. In a way, she feels she is making up for it by teaching my nieces Spanish that way they know where they come from and they will know some of her language.
posted by Kitteh at 8:55 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
fiercecupcake, my mom has a very similar regret. When she married my dad and moved in with his parents while he finished school, my grandmother admonished her when she would see her speaking Spanish to small me and my sister. "They'll never need to know that," she would tell her. So my mom--young, impressionable and lonely--never taught us her language. I love my grandparents very much but I really wish they had never said that to her. She regrets that neither my sister or I can speak Spanish, and my maternal grandmother doesn't really speak English so phone calls have been very difficult my entire life. In a way, she feels she is making up for it by teaching my nieces Spanish that way they know where they come from and they will know some of her language.
posted by Kitteh at 8:55 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
For those who are mentioning that the US Census defines Latinos as "White", so therefore, we are white, well, anyone of Arabic descent is supposed to select "White" as well.
Is that supposed to mean "so obviously the census is wrong"? Cause I would call Middle Eastern people white, too. My mental racial landscape just doesn't include that many categories -- I think in my head it's basically White, Black, East Asian and Native American (all the Americas). But that's just how I classify people in my head and I get that telling someone what they're identity is can put them in a weird uncomfortable position, as was my experience of feeling like an identify was foisted on me. So if people want to identify as Latino or Middle Eastern and think of that as categories that don't overlap with white, I'm obviously going to respect that and not run around insisting to them that they are white. But when I just see people and they haven't given me any identity they prefer, I would label hispanic, latino, and middle eastern people as white, not necessarily because I don't have any awareness of a likely ethnicity, but just because I see those ethnicities as types of white people. White people are lots of different ethnicities (just like Black people and Asian people and Native American people).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:01 AM on March 6, 2015
Is that supposed to mean "so obviously the census is wrong"? Cause I would call Middle Eastern people white, too. My mental racial landscape just doesn't include that many categories -- I think in my head it's basically White, Black, East Asian and Native American (all the Americas). But that's just how I classify people in my head and I get that telling someone what they're identity is can put them in a weird uncomfortable position, as was my experience of feeling like an identify was foisted on me. So if people want to identify as Latino or Middle Eastern and think of that as categories that don't overlap with white, I'm obviously going to respect that and not run around insisting to them that they are white. But when I just see people and they haven't given me any identity they prefer, I would label hispanic, latino, and middle eastern people as white, not necessarily because I don't have any awareness of a likely ethnicity, but just because I see those ethnicities as types of white people. White people are lots of different ethnicities (just like Black people and Asian people and Native American people).
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:01 AM on March 6, 2015
Yo if it helps end this tedious census sidebar, I am not Latina and my non-white half is one that is unambiguously not ever included under the "Caucasian" umbrella on the census. In fact, it was only in the most recent (2010) census that I could actually describe myself accurately, because it was the first census that allowed picking more than one option for "race" (Thanks, Obama!)
And yet, so much of this article still resonated with me: my first words weren't English; English wasn't my primary language until pre-school, but it's the only language I speak fluently now; I have all these childhood songs and memories and no one to share them with, because even my other Korean-American friends have incredibly fragmented experiences and there's no guarantee of that overlap (and oh, how precious it is when we do find a common point of reference); everything about the cycle of pushing one's culture away and then pulling it close again, over and over again through childhood and adolescence; never knowing how to deal with those comments that aren't quite racist enough to be called out by "polite" white people, but knowing that they wouldn't have been said if the person knew your background; having an immigrant mother who is brilliant and, by the way, also speaks flawless, grammatical, idiomatically-fluent (if accented) English and I see her the target of condescension and dismissal that I will never face and I feel so, so, powerless and frustrated, and all the more so when I witness the grace with which she handles those situations.
I consider myself white as well, by the way, it's not either-or. But my white identity is not the one that I'm pressured to disavow or told that I have no real claim to, because of how most people interpret my appearance.
posted by kagredon at 9:26 AM on March 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
And yet, so much of this article still resonated with me: my first words weren't English; English wasn't my primary language until pre-school, but it's the only language I speak fluently now; I have all these childhood songs and memories and no one to share them with, because even my other Korean-American friends have incredibly fragmented experiences and there's no guarantee of that overlap (and oh, how precious it is when we do find a common point of reference); everything about the cycle of pushing one's culture away and then pulling it close again, over and over again through childhood and adolescence; never knowing how to deal with those comments that aren't quite racist enough to be called out by "polite" white people, but knowing that they wouldn't have been said if the person knew your background; having an immigrant mother who is brilliant and, by the way, also speaks flawless, grammatical, idiomatically-fluent (if accented) English and I see her the target of condescension and dismissal that I will never face and I feel so, so, powerless and frustrated, and all the more so when I witness the grace with which she handles those situations.
I consider myself white as well, by the way, it's not either-or. But my white identity is not the one that I'm pressured to disavow or told that I have no real claim to, because of how most people interpret my appearance.
posted by kagredon at 9:26 AM on March 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Yup, I like to remind people that saying to me "But I would have never guessed you were Mexican!" is not the compliment they seem to think it is.
My favorite is when someone makes a disparaging remark about Mexicans in my presence, and when I get annoyed, they drop that "compliment" on me.
posted by PearlRose at 9:40 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
My favorite is when someone makes a disparaging remark about Mexicans in my presence, and when I get annoyed, they drop that "compliment" on me.
posted by PearlRose at 9:40 AM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is that supposed to mean "so obviously the census is wrong"? Cause I would call Middle Eastern people white, too.
And a lot of Middle Eastern people would consider themselves white, but a lot wouldn't. For example, a lot of Persian Iranians are okay with self-identifying as white, but a darker skinned guy from Egypt, is he white? A Hazara woman from Afghanistan who "looks" Asian, is she white? There's a wide, wide range of phenotypes in the "Middle East" and anyone with a family that straddles some of those phenotypes will tell you that there's a big difference in how white you're treated or how white you feel based on where you fall in that range of phenotypes.
There's a reason this is a minefield for a lot of people. Some of us can wear our heritage written on our bodies, and some of us can have it written in our names, and some of us have none of that, and that can feel pretty alienating. It's not a compliment when people say "you don't look *insert minority here*." And it's not really a compliment when your own family says "your skin is so nice and fair," either.
So yeah, this article wasn't exactly a mirror of my own experiences, but it was close. This especially:
I have never told anyone that the way English speakers pronounce my name is different than the way my name sounds when it comes out of my mother’s mouth. I’ve never corrected anyone. I suppose the first time I could have was my first day of school. How many days did it take before that was how I heard my own name, too? My name comes out of my mouth in English.
I'm mostly okay with this bit of codeswitching, I do it deliberately. I didn't choose it at first, but now I do. I feel like people who try to pronounce my name "correctly," like my family pronounces it, like those who share a first language with me pronounce it, are crossing some boundary that I don't want them to. I couldn't even entirely tell you why I feel that way.
posted by yasaman at 11:40 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
And a lot of Middle Eastern people would consider themselves white, but a lot wouldn't. For example, a lot of Persian Iranians are okay with self-identifying as white, but a darker skinned guy from Egypt, is he white? A Hazara woman from Afghanistan who "looks" Asian, is she white? There's a wide, wide range of phenotypes in the "Middle East" and anyone with a family that straddles some of those phenotypes will tell you that there's a big difference in how white you're treated or how white you feel based on where you fall in that range of phenotypes.
There's a reason this is a minefield for a lot of people. Some of us can wear our heritage written on our bodies, and some of us can have it written in our names, and some of us have none of that, and that can feel pretty alienating. It's not a compliment when people say "you don't look *insert minority here*." And it's not really a compliment when your own family says "your skin is so nice and fair," either.
So yeah, this article wasn't exactly a mirror of my own experiences, but it was close. This especially:
I have never told anyone that the way English speakers pronounce my name is different than the way my name sounds when it comes out of my mother’s mouth. I’ve never corrected anyone. I suppose the first time I could have was my first day of school. How many days did it take before that was how I heard my own name, too? My name comes out of my mouth in English.
I'm mostly okay with this bit of codeswitching, I do it deliberately. I didn't choose it at first, but now I do. I feel like people who try to pronounce my name "correctly," like my family pronounces it, like those who share a first language with me pronounce it, are crossing some boundary that I don't want them to. I couldn't even entirely tell you why I feel that way.
posted by yasaman at 11:40 AM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
kagredon: "And yet, so much of this article still resonated with me: my first words weren't English; English wasn't my primary language until pre-school, but it's the only language I speak fluently now; I have all these childhood songs and memories and no one to share them with, because even my other Korean-American friends have incredibly fragmented experiences and there's no guarantee of that overlap (and oh, how precious it is when we do find a common point of reference); everything about the cycle of pushing one's culture away and then pulling it close again, over and over again through childhood and adolescence; never knowing how to deal with those comments that aren't quite racist enough to be called out by "polite" white people, but knowing that they wouldn't have been said if the person knew your background; having an immigrant mother who is brilliant and, by the way, also speaks flawless, grammatical, idiomatically-fluent (if accented) English and I see her the target of condescension and dismissal that I will never face and I feel so, so, powerless and frustrated, and all the more so when I witness the grace with which she handles those situations."
I'm the one who brought up the census thing, and the thing is: I think the article is good. And I think everything you wrote is good. Bringing up the census wasn't an attempt to dismiss anything she's saying. But there's gotta be a better word than "white", because a white-as-snow German kid could say the exact same thing (er, well, except substitute "German-American" for "Korean-American"). Or, say, a Spanish-American kid. I'm white, but my mom is Spanish. My first words were Spanish, it was my primary language until pre-school, but now my Spanish sucks. I have memories of childhood tongue twisters and comic books and nobody to share them with because I've never even met another Spanish-American, etc. But I'm totally full-on white. So I get all of the stuff she's saying, but the issue isn't "passing for white", but something else. "Passing for not-Hispanic", or "passing for bolillo", perhaps?
posted by Bugbread at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2015
I'm the one who brought up the census thing, and the thing is: I think the article is good. And I think everything you wrote is good. Bringing up the census wasn't an attempt to dismiss anything she's saying. But there's gotta be a better word than "white", because a white-as-snow German kid could say the exact same thing (er, well, except substitute "German-American" for "Korean-American"). Or, say, a Spanish-American kid. I'm white, but my mom is Spanish. My first words were Spanish, it was my primary language until pre-school, but now my Spanish sucks. I have memories of childhood tongue twisters and comic books and nobody to share them with because I've never even met another Spanish-American, etc. But I'm totally full-on white. So I get all of the stuff she's saying, but the issue isn't "passing for white", but something else. "Passing for not-Hispanic", or "passing for bolillo", perhaps?
posted by Bugbread at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2015
I'm so happy to read this article. I am half Mexican, but I don't speak Spanish, and basically have always passed as white. At the same time, calling myself white has never felt right, and I've never identified with it. All my life, I've felt neither white nor hispanic, and I've never been able to explain it. People have at different times expected me to be both, and I've felt like neither.
I realize the author's story is different than mine, but it makes me so happy just to read it.
posted by !Jim at 3:59 PM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I realize the author's story is different than mine, but it makes me so happy just to read it.
posted by !Jim at 3:59 PM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
The problem is that "white" (like "brown" or "black") is a drastic oversimplification of racial identity. It's really only "useful" when racially profiling people because it's the most visible signifier of "otherness" and the details of that otherness aren't considered important. That means that there are a lot of us who end up in that liminal space where we have skin close enough to pass as one group or another without really considering ourselves part of that group. And that mis-identification is frustrating because it's an erasure of our identity. So saying "yes, you're latin@, but you're still white" is kind of missing the point, because that's like saying "yes you're an apple, but you're still red." That doesn't make me a tomato.
I get that the census defines "white" in a certain specific way, but that definition doesn't match how it's actually used. The assumption in common usage is that "white" is a signifier for "Western European heritage" and so "passing for white" means people assume that heritage incorrectly. That's why the census definitions are problematic, because that assumption is often wrong. I may be light-skinned, but I have no more connection to Western Europe than any other Mexican-American.
posted by chaosys at 4:27 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I get that the census defines "white" in a certain specific way, but that definition doesn't match how it's actually used. The assumption in common usage is that "white" is a signifier for "Western European heritage" and so "passing for white" means people assume that heritage incorrectly. That's why the census definitions are problematic, because that assumption is often wrong. I may be light-skinned, but I have no more connection to Western Europe than any other Mexican-American.
posted by chaosys at 4:27 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
chaosys: " The assumption in common usage is that "white" is a signifier for "Western European heritage""
Yes and no, because some of the stuff she's writing about is totally about being white (enjoying white privilege, etc.) but some of it is stuff that would also apply to a totally white Western European from a non-English speaking country, so it's not about just passing for person of Western European heritage, but a specific kind of person of Western European heritage.
But I think I've got the word that could be substituted to make everything click into place: anglo. It perfectly summarizes everything she's talking about: "non-Hispanic, English-speaking white American of European descent". That's exactly what her article is about, passing for anglo.
posted by Bugbread at 7:45 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes and no, because some of the stuff she's writing about is totally about being white (enjoying white privilege, etc.) but some of it is stuff that would also apply to a totally white Western European from a non-English speaking country, so it's not about just passing for person of Western European heritage, but a specific kind of person of Western European heritage.
But I think I've got the word that could be substituted to make everything click into place: anglo. It perfectly summarizes everything she's talking about: "non-Hispanic, English-speaking white American of European descent". That's exactly what her article is about, passing for anglo.
posted by Bugbread at 7:45 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yep, anglo is the best word for it. For instance, New Mexico has a large Hispanic population who are descendants of Spanish conquistadors. They may consider themselves white, but would not consider themselves anglo.
posted by joedan at 9:11 PM on March 6, 2015
posted by joedan at 9:11 PM on March 6, 2015
As the Wikipedia article that Bugbread links to notes, 'anglo' is a word that etymologically excludes people who are not of English ancestry. In some parts of the US, those with large, longer established Latino populations like the Southwest (where Spanish has been spoken longer than English), it has become the accepted word for Americans who grew up speaking English, but in other parts of the US, distinctions are still made between "Anglo-Saxons" and people of French ancestry (or German or Italian or in some places Scottish or Irish or Welsh). In those parts of the country, 'white' is most commonly the term used in the situation discussed in the article.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:04 AM on March 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:04 AM on March 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
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