"Restaurants look, taste, sound, and smell more and more the same."
March 19, 2015 3:17 PM Subscribe
A tourist in Buenos Aires ponders how to have an immersive experience in an age when the city's restaurant culture is adopting international standards. The answer: listen to what old people recommend.
Bonus: The TripAdvisor effect
It’s been a longstanding fear of travelers (or travelers like myself, at least) that global conglomerates like McDonald’s or TGI Friday’s might use the bludgeon of the Big Mac or the bluster of Flair to wipe out everything unique, provincial and good. But what struck me on this trip, not having seen BA for a decade and thus being more sensitive to what had changed, was how a different kind of sameness was permeating Porteño restaurant and bar culture—much more indie and elevated, but just as insidious.
Bonus: The TripAdvisor effect
Resistance to cultural homogeneity: presented by Marriott!
posted by RogerB at 3:22 PM on March 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by RogerB at 3:22 PM on March 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
The idea of longing for an authentic Buenos Aires untainted by New York or Paris standards of hipness seems founded on a deep misunderstanding of porteño culture. Buenos Aires has always been fashionable as hell.
I'm so sick of this bougie magpie-ism of people who make it a point of pride to knowledgably savor the finest things of every culture in the world insist that everybody else maintain some illusionary vision of authenticity.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 3:53 PM on March 19, 2015 [27 favorites]
I'm so sick of this bougie magpie-ism of people who make it a point of pride to knowledgably savor the finest things of every culture in the world insist that everybody else maintain some illusionary vision of authenticity.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 3:53 PM on March 19, 2015 [27 favorites]
Yeah, this is happening in virtually every restaurant and in virtually every city in the world. It's incredibly off putting. Just when food may seem to be getting better in some ways, the experience of it is getting worse. And it's happening for a zillion times more reasons than the two simple ones the author gives, I think.
posted by Blitz at 3:55 PM on March 19, 2015
posted by Blitz at 3:55 PM on March 19, 2015
Interesting that he should advise that old people make the best guides to local restaurants. The old people I know are almost all the worst guides to local food. They like clean chain restaurants with dependably identical menus, or else meat-and-three joints with food that's been swimming in the same grease for fifty years -- the kind of place where the waitress says "sweet or unsweet?" as you sit down.
This is no doubt not true of New York, where elderly people kept gems like the Cafe Edison alive, or of other old-stock cities like New Orleans. But it's certainly not universally so.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:07 PM on March 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is no doubt not true of New York, where elderly people kept gems like the Cafe Edison alive, or of other old-stock cities like New Orleans. But it's certainly not universally so.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:07 PM on March 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
illusionary vision of authenticity.
I had just a few meals in another SA city quite a few years ago. With locals. Top notch. I didn't actually much like it, a lot seemed over cooked. The piece of fish was huge, but the taste was really strong, fishy. Fresh as in walked from the beach that morning but just so much different from salmon or cod that it was too strong.
But it will be a sad thing when everyplace you go the upscale places taste great, just like the best restaurants at disnyworld. There was a Twilight Zone episode along those lines.
posted by sammyo at 4:09 PM on March 19, 2015
I had just a few meals in another SA city quite a few years ago. With locals. Top notch. I didn't actually much like it, a lot seemed over cooked. The piece of fish was huge, but the taste was really strong, fishy. Fresh as in walked from the beach that morning but just so much different from salmon or cod that it was too strong.
But it will be a sad thing when everyplace you go the upscale places taste great, just like the best restaurants at disnyworld. There was a Twilight Zone episode along those lines.
posted by sammyo at 4:09 PM on March 19, 2015
It seems important to keep in mind that "unique," "provincial," and "good" are three different things.
Sure, but doesn't that make it all the nicer when the three coincide? The author acknowledges the silliness of seeking "cultural purity" right in the article, and is also pretty up front about the objective quality of the food and drink provided by these establishments being lower than the standardized hip modern joints, but isn't the point of pleasure travel to see what's unique about your destination? People can certainly be obnoxious snobs about the "authenticity" they attain in their travel experiences, but that doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with seeking out the less-homonogenized.
posted by contraption at 4:10 PM on March 19, 2015
Sure, but doesn't that make it all the nicer when the three coincide? The author acknowledges the silliness of seeking "cultural purity" right in the article, and is also pretty up front about the objective quality of the food and drink provided by these establishments being lower than the standardized hip modern joints, but isn't the point of pleasure travel to see what's unique about your destination? People can certainly be obnoxious snobs about the "authenticity" they attain in their travel experiences, but that doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with seeking out the less-homonogenized.
posted by contraption at 4:10 PM on March 19, 2015
listen to what old people recommend.
I want what that old guy is having. No actually, I don't.
posted by charlie don't surf at 4:29 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I want what that old guy is having. No actually, I don't.
posted by charlie don't surf at 4:29 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
It seems important to keep in mind that "unique," "provincial," and "good" are three different things.
This is really true, but I would rather have the unique and provincial experience than the good one, if I had to choose. Some of my most fondly remembered meals were ones that I actually thought were gross.
I like that the author of this piece was upfront about the entitlement that lurks around the corner with this point of view, though: Of wanting the food culture of a place to be frozen in time for your sake. But, there is also entitlement lurking around the corner with the opposite view: Of expecting the food culture of a place to conform to your expectations of quality.
It reads as a really personal piece to me ("this is what I like and what I'll miss.") However, I do wonder how much "best practices" are really universal. Going someplace that could be considered out of touch (i.e. not a trendy city) can pretty quickly teach you that people think that some of these best practices are weird or off-putting. They're not really neutral, but spread due to cultural cachet.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:33 PM on March 19, 2015
This is really true, but I would rather have the unique and provincial experience than the good one, if I had to choose. Some of my most fondly remembered meals were ones that I actually thought were gross.
I like that the author of this piece was upfront about the entitlement that lurks around the corner with this point of view, though: Of wanting the food culture of a place to be frozen in time for your sake. But, there is also entitlement lurking around the corner with the opposite view: Of expecting the food culture of a place to conform to your expectations of quality.
It reads as a really personal piece to me ("this is what I like and what I'll miss.") However, I do wonder how much "best practices" are really universal. Going someplace that could be considered out of touch (i.e. not a trendy city) can pretty quickly teach you that people think that some of these best practices are weird or off-putting. They're not really neutral, but spread due to cultural cachet.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:33 PM on March 19, 2015
I use TripAdvisor quite a bit, I like to look at the terrible reviews just to see if there are any recurring issues that might cause some doubt. Sometimes this can help to spot a theme, mostly it just underlines that some people will complain about the most irrelevant thing. I read a review of a 4* hotel in a village in the Douro valley that got a 1 bubble rating as there was no H&M in the village.
posted by biffa at 4:37 PM on March 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by biffa at 4:37 PM on March 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Darn, I was hoping this was another article by by the wonderful Maciej Cegłowski.
posted by longdaysjourney at 4:40 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by longdaysjourney at 4:40 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Online reviews are so sketchy that I basically only believe them when I click on a business's profile on TripAdvisor or Yelp or whatever and ghosts fly out of my monitor shrieking "LEEEEAVE THIS PLAAAAAACE!" and "DAAAAAAAANNNNGERRRR!"
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:11 PM on March 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:11 PM on March 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
I went on a group tour a few years back and at all the stopovers, we were treated to a continental breakfast and a generic dinner which was identical in all the restaurants we ate in each town/city we visited (we got to pick lunches for ourselves, which were mostly takeout, given the limited time before meeting up again for the rest of the day's tour).
Travel services love this, as there's reduced odds of anyone getting sick from trying anything exotic. There's the additional perk of providing identical service to all the diners, making it easier to dismiss negative feedback if the majority of the group felt satisfied.
As bland as the meals were, the guides were certain not to skimp on the wine...which largely made up for the group's misgivings.
posted by Smart Dalek at 5:26 PM on March 19, 2015
Travel services love this, as there's reduced odds of anyone getting sick from trying anything exotic. There's the additional perk of providing identical service to all the diners, making it easier to dismiss negative feedback if the majority of the group felt satisfied.
As bland as the meals were, the guides were certain not to skimp on the wine...which largely made up for the group's misgivings.
posted by Smart Dalek at 5:26 PM on March 19, 2015
Went to BA in 2004 and again in 2011. Amazed at how monotonous the dining scene was. before and after. Same menu at every resto. Pizza, pasta, empanadas, repeat.
BA is itself a monoculture- a more melting melting pot than the US could ever claim to be, a pastiche of European people who have all surrendered the culture their great grandparents brought 100 years ago. Immigration is a trickle now, there are virtually no brown or black people, you can't find a thing that's even a little spicy. And that's how food is done in BA.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 5:28 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
BA is itself a monoculture- a more melting melting pot than the US could ever claim to be, a pastiche of European people who have all surrendered the culture their great grandparents brought 100 years ago. Immigration is a trickle now, there are virtually no brown or black people, you can't find a thing that's even a little spicy. And that's how food is done in BA.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 5:28 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Blah blah, world traveller, not as authentic, not the same as the last time I was here, too bad the 3rd worlders don't conform to my expectations of what they should do, eat and like, found a cool little misspelled-local-word-for-restaurant, though, so I still had a more authentic experience than you, so I'm winning.
Hipsters gonna hip, I guess.
posted by signal at 5:34 PM on March 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Hipsters gonna hip, I guess.
posted by signal at 5:34 PM on March 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Barbara Messing, TripAdvisor’s chief marketing officer, remembers those days, too. “There was that community of travelers in East Africa or South America who were circling the hotels in Lonely Planet that were really good or telling you what was closed or had good breakfast,” she recalls to me by phone from the company’s headquarters, near Boston. “That entire offline community got imported onto TripAdvisor.”
I was part of that 'community of travelers' in southeast Asia, and while I'm nostalgic for that period, I'd still take today's TripAdvisor over yesterday's Lonely Planet. The problem then was we all got stuck on the same backpackers' trail, where every warung served the same banana pancakes and meusli for breakfast, and yet we all thought we were being so authentic, and it was hard to escape it without knowing the local language (which I eventually did).
With TA, and other on-line resources, it's much easier to plot an independent route to less-visited countries.
posted by kanewai at 5:48 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was part of that 'community of travelers' in southeast Asia, and while I'm nostalgic for that period, I'd still take today's TripAdvisor over yesterday's Lonely Planet. The problem then was we all got stuck on the same backpackers' trail, where every warung served the same banana pancakes and meusli for breakfast, and yet we all thought we were being so authentic, and it was hard to escape it without knowing the local language (which I eventually did).
With TA, and other on-line resources, it's much easier to plot an independent route to less-visited countries.
posted by kanewai at 5:48 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
(With practice, it's fairly possible to distill actual information/advice from TA.)
Was recently battling in a somewhat similar vein next door to B.A., in Uruguay. In case you're interested in a few tips to gastronomically survive Punta del Este, memail me.
posted by progosk at 5:58 PM on March 19, 2015
Was recently battling in a somewhat similar vein next door to B.A., in Uruguay. In case you're interested in a few tips to gastronomically survive Punta del Este, memail me.
posted by progosk at 5:58 PM on March 19, 2015
I love "authenticity" as a concept. As if it is possible to experience anything else?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:28 PM on March 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:28 PM on March 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think there is a lot of try-hard that goes into feeling like dining in other countries is getting flattened out by a global restaurant aesthetic. You know where that feeling comes from? Traveling too much and eating out all the time. We should be so lucky.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 6:35 PM on March 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 6:35 PM on March 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
From the article:
And second, the increased likelihood that a chef or bartender in, say, BA, will have traveled to New York, Paris or even Tokyo and been influenced by what he or she learned there.
You mean they might have taken advantage of the technological marvel of powered flight, gone to another country, experienced it, and brought back a little of that flavour with them, as you hope to do when you travel?
Heaven forfend.
I use TripAdvisor quite a bit, I like to look at the terrible reviews just to see if there are any recurring issues that might cause some doubt. Sometimes this can help to spot a theme, mostly it just underlines that some people will complain about the most irrelevant thing.
I'm with you. Sorting through Trip Advisor reviews and parsing them is kind of fun but also maddening - from the crazy ("The man at the front desk could barely speak English. Unacceptable." - that (or something really close to that) was from a review for a perfectly decent London, UK hotel we stayed at) to the substantive and reasonable ("Generally pleasant. Lots of street noise in our room, so bring earplugs, but we didn't visit the city to sit around in our room. Would still recommend - great location, friendly staff").
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:43 PM on March 19, 2015
And second, the increased likelihood that a chef or bartender in, say, BA, will have traveled to New York, Paris or even Tokyo and been influenced by what he or she learned there.
You mean they might have taken advantage of the technological marvel of powered flight, gone to another country, experienced it, and brought back a little of that flavour with them, as you hope to do when you travel?
Heaven forfend.
I use TripAdvisor quite a bit, I like to look at the terrible reviews just to see if there are any recurring issues that might cause some doubt. Sometimes this can help to spot a theme, mostly it just underlines that some people will complain about the most irrelevant thing.
I'm with you. Sorting through Trip Advisor reviews and parsing them is kind of fun but also maddening - from the crazy ("The man at the front desk could barely speak English. Unacceptable." - that (or something really close to that) was from a review for a perfectly decent London, UK hotel we stayed at) to the substantive and reasonable ("Generally pleasant. Lots of street noise in our room, so bring earplugs, but we didn't visit the city to sit around in our room. Would still recommend - great location, friendly staff").
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:43 PM on March 19, 2015
listen to what old people recommend.
"The lunchtime buffet is all-you-can-eat and it goes until four o'clock."
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:51 PM on March 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
"The lunchtime buffet is all-you-can-eat and it goes until four o'clock."
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:51 PM on March 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Is that an international cliche though? Certainly in the US and it sounds like Australia, maybe not BA or say Italy or France, I have no wordly experience to go on. I do remember a terrible "carvery" on Kitchen Nightmares UK that seemed to support the cliche there. Certainly class comes into it
posted by aydeejones at 8:24 PM on March 19, 2015
posted by aydeejones at 8:24 PM on March 19, 2015
Is it really so unbelievably unforgivably square to want to go to experience other cultures and have new, different types of experiences? And not to want to go to other places just to see and taste the same bland shit you have at home? This is now bad? All this time I was led to believe that it was me who was a square for not wanting to travel. My mind is blown.
posted by bleep at 8:25 PM on March 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:25 PM on March 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Your tastebuds change when you get old, though; I would not assume a much older person would like things I like, based on my own experience. Of course, I am well on my way to Old Person Town so what do I know.
When traveling, I assume I'm going to have to work to get anything but bad meals. Tourist food (or food in tourist-heavy places) tends towards the terrible. Because tourists are both in a hurry and ignorant of things neighborhood people would know and so will generally take what they can get and pay too much for it. I think this is also why you remember a good meal you stumble upon so fondly; at that point, you're a little desperate from days of travel food. If it doesn't suck or make you feel like you're getting screwed, it's a miracle.
I try to find local markets when I can, and eat lightly. If I am going to someplace famous for its food, then I will have specific restaurants to visit. If I am able to really take my time or have a local guide, then I might have a fighting chance at "authentic local good" food. But wandering around on my own, I don't get my hopes up. Chances are good I'll have a good story to tell but a terrible meal to pick at.
posted by emjaybee at 8:26 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
When traveling, I assume I'm going to have to work to get anything but bad meals. Tourist food (or food in tourist-heavy places) tends towards the terrible. Because tourists are both in a hurry and ignorant of things neighborhood people would know and so will generally take what they can get and pay too much for it. I think this is also why you remember a good meal you stumble upon so fondly; at that point, you're a little desperate from days of travel food. If it doesn't suck or make you feel like you're getting screwed, it's a miracle.
I try to find local markets when I can, and eat lightly. If I am going to someplace famous for its food, then I will have specific restaurants to visit. If I am able to really take my time or have a local guide, then I might have a fighting chance at "authentic local good" food. But wandering around on my own, I don't get my hopes up. Chances are good I'll have a good story to tell but a terrible meal to pick at.
posted by emjaybee at 8:26 PM on March 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is a certain kind of elderly person who is amazing for restaurant or cafe recommendations -- they care about food, they know their city intimately, and they want to point you to the best options.
But those people are the same people who gave awesome restaurant advice when they were young, too -- it's not about young vs old, it's about having the luck or skill to find the right person to ask.
Same menu at every resto. Pizza, pasta, empanadas, repeat.
I have never been to Argentina (unfortunately), but I have eaten at Argentinian restaurants in at least three countries and have been served home cooking by Argentinian friends, and this does not describe what I have eaten at all. If that is really what the restaurants are like, that is sad because there is clearly a good food culture there to draw on.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:10 PM on March 19, 2015
But those people are the same people who gave awesome restaurant advice when they were young, too -- it's not about young vs old, it's about having the luck or skill to find the right person to ask.
Same menu at every resto. Pizza, pasta, empanadas, repeat.
I have never been to Argentina (unfortunately), but I have eaten at Argentinian restaurants in at least three countries and have been served home cooking by Argentinian friends, and this does not describe what I have eaten at all. If that is really what the restaurants are like, that is sad because there is clearly a good food culture there to draw on.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:10 PM on March 19, 2015
In Vietnam, middle-aged and older people (45+, not octogenarians) are the only reliable source of recommendations. Young folks seem to favor fast food, overpriced cafes (mostly serving Robusta-based coffee), and "nice" restaurants (hotel restaurants and buffets, ugh). Older people will take you to a barbecue place four turns off the main road in an alley roofed in tin and smelling of cigarettes and charcoal where you will have the best, freshest-tasting goat meat possible. I think part of it is "status"—the "nicer" options are viewed as conferring status because, hey, if you can afford a $5 terrible fast food burger, you're richer than the average Vietnamese. Older people are past that (or never cared), and want a tasty meal.
posted by sonic meat machine at 11:10 PM on March 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sonic meat machine at 11:10 PM on March 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Dip Flash: "Same menu at every resto. Pizza, pasta, empanadas, repeat.
... If that is really what the restaurants are like, that is sad because there is clearly a good food culture there to draw on."
It's not. There's amazing food in BA and Argentina in general. ethnomethodologist was really unlucky or didn't try at all.
posted by signal at 5:02 AM on March 20, 2015
... If that is really what the restaurants are like, that is sad because there is clearly a good food culture there to draw on."
It's not. There's amazing food in BA and Argentina in general. ethnomethodologist was really unlucky or didn't try at all.
posted by signal at 5:02 AM on March 20, 2015
Argentina is at the top of my list of places I'd really love to visit, and it always has been. So this post has been favorited.
I find the second link very interesting. What is it with TripAdvisor? I looked up my own home town and was amazed that the top restaurant was a place I'd never even heard of. In fact the first locally-known restaurant on the list is number three. It is fascinating that you can run a business mainly driven by international reviews rather than local backing. Also a rather new and very local restaurant has rapidly risen to a high status (no. 31), and while I have heard it is OK, no locals I know find it special (it's like a place you go when you get home late from work). 230 meters from that restaurant (according to google maps) is a spectacular restaurant which is very low on all international lists (no 229 on trip advisor, invisible on all other lists).
Even on the premise that trip advisor's users are more focused on value for money and good atmosphere than other guides, I was surprised to see that one of the most popular and fair-priced restaurants here was no. 124. But maybe there is some bias against locally popular restaurants because you need reservations always.
And maybe that points back to the first article: if we are planning a dinner or lunch, we book it well ahead. These places are devoid of tourists, unless they are in the company of locals. If we improvise, we call around, and some good places may have seats available the same day, but 6-8 hours before mealtime. This "layer" of restos are either more expensive or more bland. If you want to just wander around and find a place to eat, well, your choice is between international style and traditional old-people food - both can be good and both can be horrible. Maybe the situation is similar in Buenos Aires?
posted by mumimor at 6:32 AM on March 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I find the second link very interesting. What is it with TripAdvisor? I looked up my own home town and was amazed that the top restaurant was a place I'd never even heard of. In fact the first locally-known restaurant on the list is number three. It is fascinating that you can run a business mainly driven by international reviews rather than local backing. Also a rather new and very local restaurant has rapidly risen to a high status (no. 31), and while I have heard it is OK, no locals I know find it special (it's like a place you go when you get home late from work). 230 meters from that restaurant (according to google maps) is a spectacular restaurant which is very low on all international lists (no 229 on trip advisor, invisible on all other lists).
Even on the premise that trip advisor's users are more focused on value for money and good atmosphere than other guides, I was surprised to see that one of the most popular and fair-priced restaurants here was no. 124. But maybe there is some bias against locally popular restaurants because you need reservations always.
And maybe that points back to the first article: if we are planning a dinner or lunch, we book it well ahead. These places are devoid of tourists, unless they are in the company of locals. If we improvise, we call around, and some good places may have seats available the same day, but 6-8 hours before mealtime. This "layer" of restos are either more expensive or more bland. If you want to just wander around and find a place to eat, well, your choice is between international style and traditional old-people food - both can be good and both can be horrible. Maybe the situation is similar in Buenos Aires?
posted by mumimor at 6:32 AM on March 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
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It seems important to keep in mind that "unique," "provincial," and "good" are three different things.
posted by escabeche at 3:22 PM on March 19, 2015 [7 favorites]