Lonely is the Night, Detroit 1983
March 28, 2015 1:01 PM Subscribe
This is simply a 1983 concert video of Billy Squier performing the single greatest cocaine fueled butt rock song ever made in all of its glory.
Here is Everybody Wants You from the same concert.
This is a full 1981 Los Angeles concert of Mr. Squier and his band. The Lonely is the Night performance in 1981 tears it up better but lacks the famous intro riff and starts off with 1:40 of guitar goofiness.
Billy Squier was previously featured on Metafilter where we all enjoyed the moment he sabotaged his career with his homage to snorting white powder in this hilarious video for Rock Me Tonight although this musicless version is arguably funnier.
Billy Squier broke through in 1981 when he released Don't Say No, a largely forgotten album, that none the less holds up remarkably well despite (or because of) being the quintessentially corporate rock album about meaningless sex, partying, and dick wagging. A.V. Club review.
In case you were worried about poor Mr. Squier's general irrelevance in 2015, don't. It turns out he is among the most heavily sampled artists in hip-hop forming the back bone of songs by everyone from Run-DMC to Jay Z (Squier's The Big Beat is used in "99 Problems"). He's been sampled nearly 200 times and it is estimated that his unlikely hip-hop career has earned him millions.
Here is Everybody Wants You from the same concert.
This is a full 1981 Los Angeles concert of Mr. Squier and his band. The Lonely is the Night performance in 1981 tears it up better but lacks the famous intro riff and starts off with 1:40 of guitar goofiness.
Billy Squier was previously featured on Metafilter where we all enjoyed the moment he sabotaged his career with his homage to snorting white powder in this hilarious video for Rock Me Tonight although this musicless version is arguably funnier.
Billy Squier broke through in 1981 when he released Don't Say No, a largely forgotten album, that none the less holds up remarkably well despite (or because of) being the quintessentially corporate rock album about meaningless sex, partying, and dick wagging. A.V. Club review.
In case you were worried about poor Mr. Squier's general irrelevance in 2015, don't. It turns out he is among the most heavily sampled artists in hip-hop forming the back bone of songs by everyone from Run-DMC to Jay Z (Squier's The Big Beat is used in "99 Problems"). He's been sampled nearly 200 times and it is estimated that his unlikely hip-hop career has earned him millions.
i learned to drive to an 8-track of Don't Say No.
those live performances are cheesy as hell.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 1:28 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
those live performances are cheesy as hell.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 1:28 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
That bunny hop towards the backstage camera as the shredder plays to the audience is incredible.
posted by downtohisturtles at 1:28 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by downtohisturtles at 1:28 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Actually, this is one of the best Zep rippoffs ever.
posted by jonmc at 1:33 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 1:33 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I love Billy Squire without reservations. In The Dark, Everybody Wants You, Lonely is the Night, The Stroke, My Kind of Lover, and even Rock Me Tonight are all great songs. His post-Rock Me Tonight work was lousy, but having six or seven kick ass songs to your credit is a pretty great track record.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:35 PM on March 28, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:35 PM on March 28, 2015 [15 favorites]
Seriously, Slarty, Billy Squire's music was just plain good fun hard rock, until that rather embarassing video for Rock Me Tonight.
posted by jonmc at 1:39 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 1:39 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Billy Squier impression Paul Rudd is doing in the first video is a little over-the-top, but pretty good overall.
posted by dfan at 1:46 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by dfan at 1:46 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
All on his own, Squier is a fine central nervous stimulant. He has almost some John Cleese facial comedy. What do I know ? This post is my first dose.
posted by Oyéah at 1:51 PM on March 28, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 1:51 PM on March 28, 2015
BUTT ROCK
posted by Existential Dread at 1:51 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 1:51 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also, that's a cute little half-shirt on the keyboard player.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:52 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 1:52 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Avalon says that for his track, Squier demanded a fee up front along with 75 percent of the royalties.
Goddamn!
posted by Existential Dread at 1:57 PM on March 28, 2015
Goddamn!
posted by Existential Dread at 1:57 PM on March 28, 2015
I am secretly 22 years old in 1981 driving my custom van conversion all over So Cal with 2 girls in bikinis in the back and a joint hanging out of my mouth with this music blaring from the tape deck.
Someday I would love to convince my bandmates to cover Don't Say No from start to finish, but I always find myself playing music with overly sensitive twee losers who listen to too much Belle and Sebastian
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:58 PM on March 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
Someday I would love to convince my bandmates to cover Don't Say No from start to finish, but I always find myself playing music with overly sensitive twee losers who listen to too much Belle and Sebastian
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:58 PM on March 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
You sound coflicted about liking some music. That's usually unnecssesary. Just rock out.
posted by jonmc at 2:01 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 2:01 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Actually, this is one of the best Zep rippoffs ever.
Definitely in the Robert Plant-ian mode of inexpressively wailing along to every note in the song. Pay summoar attention to maaaayyyy.... Outside of Marion Williams and maybe Axl Rose, I don't wanna hear you do that. Play less notes, lef more space.
posted by batfish at 2:06 PM on March 28, 2015
Definitely in the Robert Plant-ian mode of inexpressively wailing along to every note in the song. Pay summoar attention to maaaayyyy.... Outside of Marion Williams and maybe Axl Rose, I don't wanna hear you do that. Play less notes, lef more space.
posted by batfish at 2:06 PM on March 28, 2015
Don't. Don't. Don't. Don't. Don't. Don't say you love me.
The 80's were something, alright.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:17 PM on March 28, 2015
The 80's were something, alright.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:17 PM on March 28, 2015
This post puts my emotions in motion.
posted by vitabellosi at 2:34 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by vitabellosi at 2:34 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not just the wailing that makes it a Zeppelin homage. That stop-time riff is a pretty decent collage of Page/Jones/Bonham, just without all the soul and menace. Man, I remember cranking this up back in the day. That whole Don't Say No album is just this corporate mash of Faces with Zeppelin and maybe some New York Dolls, but with a heavy amount of studio gloss and polish.
Watching that video (which is fantastic) here's the difference between this song's forebears and 80s glam rock like Billy and all those who mimed him: if that were the Dolls, Faces, or Zeppelin there wouldn't have been all that dicking around at the beginning. They'd just go for the fucking throat right then and there.
posted by Ber at 2:45 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Watching that video (which is fantastic) here's the difference between this song's forebears and 80s glam rock like Billy and all those who mimed him: if that were the Dolls, Faces, or Zeppelin there wouldn't have been all that dicking around at the beginning. They'd just go for the fucking throat right then and there.
posted by Ber at 2:45 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Actually, this is one of the best Zep rippoffs ever.
posted by jonmc
Ha ha ha. If you look up "rip off" in the dictionary of rock and roll there's a picture of Page and Plant grinning in between stealing songs, licks, and stage moves from Muddy and the rest if the Chicago guys, and even from other white metal bands.
Is that Jeff Golub playing that spectacular green Les Paul? I believe so. Whoever it is has chops to spare.
Oh, I saw Squier several times around this tour. He was a huge local hero in Boston, where I was a young rock musician at the time.
posted by spitbull at 2:46 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jonmc
Ha ha ha. If you look up "rip off" in the dictionary of rock and roll there's a picture of Page and Plant grinning in between stealing songs, licks, and stage moves from Muddy and the rest if the Chicago guys, and even from other white metal bands.
Is that Jeff Golub playing that spectacular green Les Paul? I believe so. Whoever it is has chops to spare.
Oh, I saw Squier several times around this tour. He was a huge local hero in Boston, where I was a young rock musician at the time.
posted by spitbull at 2:46 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
OK, at a computer instead of my phone now, so let me expound a little on "Rock Me Tonight."
Back in the early 80's, right before the release of "Rock Me Tonight," Billy Squier felt like he was about to become huge. I mean, he was already filling some pretty big stadiums and was all over rock radio, but his hits were floating at the lower end of the Top 40. I mean, "Rock Me Tonight" (which was a top 20 hit) should have been the song that made him a top rock act.
But, see, there's this undercurrent and you had to be there for it. The rumor among the hard rock kids was that he was gay and was "married to his drummer." Classic early 80's homophobia. I remember a friend of mine who was a huge Judas Priest fan (irony!) railing against Squire because he wasn't straight.
And, truth be told, I knew a ton of teeenage girls who loved Billy Squier. I'm not making this up, I was invited to see the "Rock Me Tonight" video debut by a group of my female high school friends. They had a party around it.
Now, in addition to homophobic, the teen male rock fans of the early 80's hated the music that the female's liked. Or, rather, held it in contempt. So Squier had two big strikes against him as far as the male rock knuckleheads were concerned even before the video was even released - he was "girl music" and he was possibly gay.
Then that video came out and it basically seemed to reinforce the adolescent narrative about Squier.
Let's not forget, the song was his biggest hit and its a great song. But it could have been bigger. Guys rejected it and once the teenage boys abandoned Team Squier, rock radio soon followed.
The kicker is that it was the video was something of a shrewd marketing move in some ways - like I said, my female friends loved the video at the time. I heard shrieks of joy when he tore his shirt open.
Now, obviously, its a crappy video, but its not necessarily any more crappy than most of the videos from the time. I'm of the opinion that what killed him was that the video wasn't more Butt Rock - like if it had been a concert video or a video of him sitting on a motorcycle looking glum, I think the song would have been bigger and he wouldn't have lost the homophobic hard rock crowd.
This is all theory, but, yes, I'm blaming the collapse of Billy Squier's career less on the shitty quality of that video and more on the misogyny and homophobia in the early 80's hard rock world. c.f. Spinal Taps' comments on why they primarily appeal to teenage boys.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:47 PM on March 28, 2015 [23 favorites]
Back in the early 80's, right before the release of "Rock Me Tonight," Billy Squier felt like he was about to become huge. I mean, he was already filling some pretty big stadiums and was all over rock radio, but his hits were floating at the lower end of the Top 40. I mean, "Rock Me Tonight" (which was a top 20 hit) should have been the song that made him a top rock act.
But, see, there's this undercurrent and you had to be there for it. The rumor among the hard rock kids was that he was gay and was "married to his drummer." Classic early 80's homophobia. I remember a friend of mine who was a huge Judas Priest fan (irony!) railing against Squire because he wasn't straight.
And, truth be told, I knew a ton of teeenage girls who loved Billy Squier. I'm not making this up, I was invited to see the "Rock Me Tonight" video debut by a group of my female high school friends. They had a party around it.
Now, in addition to homophobic, the teen male rock fans of the early 80's hated the music that the female's liked. Or, rather, held it in contempt. So Squier had two big strikes against him as far as the male rock knuckleheads were concerned even before the video was even released - he was "girl music" and he was possibly gay.
Then that video came out and it basically seemed to reinforce the adolescent narrative about Squier.
Let's not forget, the song was his biggest hit and its a great song. But it could have been bigger. Guys rejected it and once the teenage boys abandoned Team Squier, rock radio soon followed.
The kicker is that it was the video was something of a shrewd marketing move in some ways - like I said, my female friends loved the video at the time. I heard shrieks of joy when he tore his shirt open.
Now, obviously, its a crappy video, but its not necessarily any more crappy than most of the videos from the time. I'm of the opinion that what killed him was that the video wasn't more Butt Rock - like if it had been a concert video or a video of him sitting on a motorcycle looking glum, I think the song would have been bigger and he wouldn't have lost the homophobic hard rock crowd.
This is all theory, but, yes, I'm blaming the collapse of Billy Squier's career less on the shitty quality of that video and more on the misogyny and homophobia in the early 80's hard rock world. c.f. Spinal Taps' comments on why they primarily appeal to teenage boys.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:47 PM on March 28, 2015 [23 favorites]
Yes, it is Jeff Golub.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 2:58 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 2:58 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thanks Slarty. You'd never know Golub was a superb jazz player from how well he shreds here.
posted by spitbull at 3:12 PM on March 28, 2015
posted by spitbull at 3:12 PM on March 28, 2015
Billy Squier has been an active volunteer for the Central Park Conservancy for over 17 years, physically maintaining 20 acres (81,000 m2) of the park, as well as promoting the Conservancy in articles and interviews. He also supports the Group for the East End and its native planting programs on eastern Long Island.
posted by shockingbluamp at 3:14 PM on March 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by shockingbluamp at 3:14 PM on March 28, 2015 [14 favorites]
Rock Me Tonight is not a good enough song to transcend its genre, that is, Rawk that is trying hard to keep up with the fact that Top 40 was becoming ever shinier, ever prettier. At the time, to be popular you needed to get played on Miami Vice. If, as an artist, your goal was to be a popular corporate darling, you did some pretty embarrassing things. Billy Squire's career straddles the line between what was awesome about Rawk and what was farcical. He was one of the last praise-worthy artists of this genre before Spinal Tap. The last before the excess became too excessive. Van Halen and the like were able to ride their popularity through this playing casinos and county fairs and sort of being comfortable with who they were, but some of the lesser stars of Butt Rock tried to change with the times.
Here's to everyone who realizes that first Night Ranger album was way better.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 3:29 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here's to everyone who realizes that first Night Ranger album was way better.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 3:29 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Born in Copley, Ohio, outside of Akron, Golub started playing by emulating 1960s blues rock guitarists Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck and Jimi Hendrix.[citation needed]
You don't need a citation for that, for any rock guitarist born about 1950 to 1980....
posted by thelonius at 3:49 PM on March 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
You don't need a citation for that, for any rock guitarist born about 1950 to 1980....
posted by thelonius at 3:49 PM on March 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't worry about it though, Boston's not a big college town.
posted by phaedon at 4:33 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by phaedon at 4:33 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
I had no idea that video had the effect that it did. I love me some Kenny Ortega choreography! It's how young me thought cool people danced. It sucks that, from what it seems like, homophobia essentially killed his career.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:55 PM on March 28, 2015
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:55 PM on March 28, 2015
This is not a great framing of Billy Squier's career, although I'd be willing to put some of the blame for the "corporate rock" bullshit on that AV Club article, which seems to think that earlier Led Zep wasn't but later Led Zep totally was. And "butt rock" is, what? Anything that you can sing along to? Anything that's built around a simple, original, totally catchy riff? Anything that's not Emerson, Lake & Palmer?
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:28 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:28 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Joey Michaels' simply brilliant comment here is proven correct by the straight-from-the-eighties-homophobic youtube comments underneath the Rock Me Tonight video.
posted by ferdydurke at 5:30 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ferdydurke at 5:30 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I blame the Telecaster.
posted by clavdivs at 5:56 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 5:56 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it is a bit simplistic to say that homophobia killed Billy Squier. In his early career, he fronted a glam band in the vein of T. Rex and plenty of popular album oriented hard rock acts of the time were very obviously androgynous -- Freddy Mercury, Steven Tyler, David Lee Roth. What makes Rock me Tonight so silly is the cheesy keyboard, the satin sheets, the clothes tearing, and the twitchy coke dance. I think it is fair to say one can find this all very stupid without it being an insult to gay people.
There was a indie radio station here in Seattle (not KEXP) that used to feature a Butt Rock Song of the Day -- Accepts "Balls to the Walls", Dokken, etc. I have no idea where the term originated, but I've always liked it. It's music that is essentially for 13 year old boys and meth heads who take it very seriously because it *rocks*so*fucking*hard*. And it *is* fun to appreciate that it rocks fucking hard while being ultimately silly. And part of the fun is that this is music that is profoundly uncool to anyone who grew up on The Dead Kennedys or The Clash or any other music the purports to be about Something Important.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 6:44 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
There was a indie radio station here in Seattle (not KEXP) that used to feature a Butt Rock Song of the Day -- Accepts "Balls to the Walls", Dokken, etc. I have no idea where the term originated, but I've always liked it. It's music that is essentially for 13 year old boys and meth heads who take it very seriously because it *rocks*so*fucking*hard*. And it *is* fun to appreciate that it rocks fucking hard while being ultimately silly. And part of the fun is that this is music that is profoundly uncool to anyone who grew up on The Dead Kennedys or The Clash or any other music the purports to be about Something Important.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 6:44 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it is fair to say one can find this all very stupid without it being an insult to gay people.
You're right, so far as it goes. But in the context of the 80s, certain types of homosexuality were ... tolerated, for lack of a better word - but they had to remain in their respective ghettos.
My experience was similar to Joey Michaels. Billy Squire was always thought to be a little too close to the gay end of the spectrum for the type of rock he wanted to be. It's a shame, because I really liked a lot of his work - But, he's rich as fuck, so I'd say he's got the last laugh, anyway.
Sometimes, the Universe does unfold as it should.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 6:52 PM on March 28, 2015
You're right, so far as it goes. But in the context of the 80s, certain types of homosexuality were ... tolerated, for lack of a better word - but they had to remain in their respective ghettos.
My experience was similar to Joey Michaels. Billy Squire was always thought to be a little too close to the gay end of the spectrum for the type of rock he wanted to be. It's a shame, because I really liked a lot of his work - But, he's rich as fuck, so I'd say he's got the last laugh, anyway.
Sometimes, the Universe does unfold as it should.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 6:52 PM on March 28, 2015
Wtf is butt rock?
posted by futz at 7:33 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by futz at 7:33 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah seriously
Do you play the guitar with your butt
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:40 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do you play the guitar with your butt
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:40 PM on March 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
And part of the fun is that this is music that is profoundly uncool to anyone who grew up on The Dead Kennedys or The Clash
I dunno. I spent my teenage years listening to a mix predominated by the DKs, the Clash, the Sex Pistols, the Ramones and the Cramps, but I persisted in liking Billy Squier well after the video that tipped him over from the cool column to the ridiculous column. I think I saw him in concert twice!
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:42 PM on March 28, 2015
I dunno. I spent my teenage years listening to a mix predominated by the DKs, the Clash, the Sex Pistols, the Ramones and the Cramps, but I persisted in liking Billy Squier well after the video that tipped him over from the cool column to the ridiculous column. I think I saw him in concert twice!
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:42 PM on March 28, 2015
Missed your explanation Slarty. Still doesn't make sense to me butt that's ok!
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on March 28, 2015
posted by futz at 7:49 PM on March 28, 2015
I googled the term and it looks like it applies to 1980's big hair bands and their Camero driving fans. Why "butt", I dunno. Perhaps the tight spandexy pants the band wore?
posted by futz at 7:58 PM on March 28, 2015
posted by futz at 7:58 PM on March 28, 2015
re: butt rock - Urban Dictionary has it, though you have to go to definition #6-
posted by hap_hazard at 8:09 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
A derogatory term for any hard rock music. The term comes from a nationwide advertising campaign on hard rock radio stations in the 1990s that used the tagline "Rock. Nothing but Rock." Listeners quickly changed that to "Nothing Butt Rock".That sounds stupid enough to be true!
posted by hap_hazard at 8:09 PM on March 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
I love everything about this post-- which probably explains a number of my ex-boyfriends.
So is Butt Rock the same as Cock Rock?
posted by travertina at 8:29 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
So is Butt Rock the same as Cock Rock?
posted by travertina at 8:29 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is this one of those "front" or "back" questions?
posted by jadepearl at 9:45 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jadepearl at 9:45 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good lord. I'd never thought i'd have to explain Butt Rock. Butt Rock is essentially Arena Rock without any "edge" to it (hence its derision by the punks and the metalheads). Think Kansas & Boston in the 70's, Night Ranger & Loverboy in the 80's. THAT'S Butt Rock.
posted by KingEdRa at 9:50 PM on March 28, 2015
posted by KingEdRa at 9:50 PM on March 28, 2015
I thought "The Stroke" rocked harder than almost any other song of the time (well, that and a few of the songs on Loverboy's first album -- they were an act that got pegged as gay where I went to school, more so than Squier), and that was a time when the hangover of mellow/bombastic late-70s major-studio AOR was still in full force -- REO Speedwagon, April Wine, Styx, 38 Special, Jefferson Starship, and the Who's Face Dances. But I didn't hang out with the punk/metal crowd, so what did I know.
posted by blucevalo at 10:03 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by blucevalo at 10:03 PM on March 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I always thought Billy Squier's biggest problem was that he pranced. I always suspected that he took ballet. He pranced, and he was wearing Capezios before they were popular.
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:39 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:39 PM on March 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
As much as Lonely Is the Night might seem a Zep knockoff, it's nothing in the way of a knockoff compared to Kingdom Come's entry, Get It On.
posted by smcameron at 11:45 PM on March 28, 2015
posted by smcameron at 11:45 PM on March 28, 2015
billy squier is responsible for what is perhaps my favorite xmas song. behold some 1981 mtv awesomeness: christmas is the time to say i love you.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 11:49 PM on March 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by fingers_of_fire at 11:49 PM on March 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Among the many documented and provable cases of Led Zeppelin committing outright plagiarism, they were recently in the news for a court decision affirming the plagiarism of "Stairway to Heaven" from the band Spirit's song "Taurus," which they knew very well from having toured with Spirit.
Here's a video which documents 10 examples of Zep's shameless practice of song theft.
Saying anyone "ripped off Led Zeppelin" implies Zeppelin invented a damn thing original. You can't steal from thieves.
posted by spitbull at 2:03 AM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here's a video which documents 10 examples of Zep's shameless practice of song theft.
Saying anyone "ripped off Led Zeppelin" implies Zeppelin invented a damn thing original. You can't steal from thieves.
posted by spitbull at 2:03 AM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
This post reminds me of an acquaintance I went to junior high with, circa 1982-3, who had tattoos of Billy Squier's face on one arm, and the hilariously (to me, anyway) misspelled Led Zepplin on the other. Even at that tender age I wondered how someone that young got tattoos, and thought of them as abysmally poor life choices. I hope that guy is okay.
posted by talking leaf at 2:38 AM on March 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by talking leaf at 2:38 AM on March 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
fingers_of_fire: "billy squier is responsible for what is perhaps my favorite xmas song. behold some 1981 mtv awesomeness: christmas is the time to say i love you ."
Agreed. That's my favorite xmas tune. I like to play the shit out of that in July and August, and I don't even like xmas. Occasionally I'll play it around xmas, but that's pretty rare.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 5:07 AM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Agreed. That's my favorite xmas tune. I like to play the shit out of that in July and August, and I don't even like xmas. Occasionally I'll play it around xmas, but that's pretty rare.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 5:07 AM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Billy Squier is not butt rock. Fuck that noise. Don't Say No rocks, period.
(For what it's worth, where I grew up the term was "poodle rock" - definitely an insult and definitely homophobic.)
(Thank you for the concert links!)
posted by jammy at 6:47 AM on March 29, 2015
(For what it's worth, where I grew up the term was "poodle rock" - definitely an insult and definitely homophobic.)
(Thank you for the concert links!)
posted by jammy at 6:47 AM on March 29, 2015
Saying anyone "ripped off Led Zeppelin" implies Zeppelin invented a damn thing original. You can't steal from thieves.
First Led Zeppelin song I ever heard as a tiny child was a JPJ original, AFAIK.
posted by flabdablet at 7:28 AM on March 29, 2015
First Led Zeppelin song I ever heard as a tiny child was a JPJ original, AFAIK.
posted by flabdablet at 7:28 AM on March 29, 2015
I also learned to drive to an 8-track of Don't Say No. Then I went to my very first concert ever: Queen, w/Billy Squier opening, at a sold out Poplar Creek Music Theater ( a huge deal - I think it was the venue's first sold out show). Squier sucked so bad live, that half the lawn folks got up for beers, and missed the first part of Queen. After seeing Queen, I don't think I ever listened to that Don't Say No 8-track ever again.
I cannot believe I am this old.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 8:13 AM on March 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I cannot believe I am this old.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 8:13 AM on March 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Good lord. I'd never thought i'd have to explain Butt Rock. Butt Rock is essentially Arena Rock without any "edge" to it (hence its derision by the punks and the metalheads). Think Kansas & Boston in the 70's, Night Ranger & Loverboy in the 80's. THAT'S Butt Rock.
Except that that's not really a definition at all. Hardcore punks hate anything that's not punk (and often anything that's not hardcore punk), including Led Zep; hardcore metalheads, ditto, including the Ramones. And I'm flabbergasted that you're putting Kansas and Boston--two of the most technically virtuousic bands of the seventies--in the same category as Night Ranger and Loverboy. "Butt rock" seems to be a synonym for "rock bands I don't like."
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:57 AM on March 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Except that that's not really a definition at all. Hardcore punks hate anything that's not punk (and often anything that's not hardcore punk), including Led Zep; hardcore metalheads, ditto, including the Ramones. And I'm flabbergasted that you're putting Kansas and Boston--two of the most technically virtuousic bands of the seventies--in the same category as Night Ranger and Loverboy. "Butt rock" seems to be a synonym for "rock bands I don't like."
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:57 AM on March 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Flabdablet, it's widely charged that "Black Dog" (the song I learned my first lead licks on!) copped licks and grooves both from Howlin' Wolf's "Smoke Stack Lightning" *and* from Fleetwood Mac's "Oh Well."
It's less clear cut than some of the examples of LedZep mimesis, but you can hear it.
It's all Muddy Waters through Marshall Stacks anyway. I love Zep, don't get me wrong, but these days mostly for leading me to Chicago blues as a young man.
posted by spitbull at 9:27 AM on March 29, 2015
It's less clear cut than some of the examples of LedZep mimesis, but you can hear it.
It's all Muddy Waters through Marshall Stacks anyway. I love Zep, don't get me wrong, but these days mostly for leading me to Chicago blues as a young man.
posted by spitbull at 9:27 AM on March 29, 2015
OK, at the risk of derail, let me play devil's advocate - let's say *all* Led Zeppelin did was re-purpose a bunch of pre-existing Chicago blues licks through Marshall stacks against the Groove-of-God drumming of John Bonham with the acid-inflected vocals of Robert Plant and the spot-on production (arrangement, mic placement, etc) of Jimmy Page. (For the sake of argument, let's discount Jimmy's guitar playing as being part of the unpardonable theft - why, I don't know, but let's just accept that.)
If that was the totality of Led Zeppelin's accomplishments, would they not still be among the greatest musicians in popular music like, EVER?
That doesn't excuse uncredited theft/borrowing/influence/call it what you will. But - they added more than a little bit of innovation to the mix as well. Same can be said of pretty much every artist we revere. Art doesn't arise out of a vaccuum.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 9:50 AM on March 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
If that was the totality of Led Zeppelin's accomplishments, would they not still be among the greatest musicians in popular music like, EVER?
That doesn't excuse uncredited theft/borrowing/influence/call it what you will. But - they added more than a little bit of innovation to the mix as well. Same can be said of pretty much every artist we revere. Art doesn't arise out of a vaccuum.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 9:50 AM on March 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
You can watch music unfold amazingly these days. You can watch Page start Dazed and Confused, with a singer from the Yardbirds, watch him bust out the violin bow and make some of the most creative noise ever in the history of music. Then you watch Page take Dazed and Confused over to his new band Led Zepplin, and Robert Plant gets all over that song and makes it a masterpiece. Art is fluid, every thing is influenced by every other thing. If I were to choose an all time favorite piece it might be Dazed and Confused, but then again it might be Tuesday Afternoon, a completely different mood. Squires seems singularly baccanalian, passionate, and happy in his art, boy is he also lovely to watch, hey but they all were.
posted by Oyéah at 10:09 AM on March 29, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 10:09 AM on March 29, 2015
let's discount Jimmy's guitar playing as being part of the unpardonable theft
No, let's not.
The whole theft thing is bullshit. Musicians have always played grooves and licks they've enjoyed hearing other people play. Sometimes they do more interesting things with them than the musicians they got them from. Even entire cover versions can occasionally crap upon the originals from a great height.
Lots of people claim Led Zeppelin never did anything original or worthwhile. It's a fashionable thing to claim. It's also a dangerous thing to claim, as it leaves the claimant so open to being written off as a blowhard poseur desperately attempting to deflect attention from their own complete lack of any lasting cultural contribution.
The day an anti-Zep critic works out a way to make me wish to follow a sound upstream until my head is stuck right inside a PA speaker cabinet operating at full volume, regardless of any consideration of my future ability to hear anything ever again, when it's their playing coming out of it: that's the day I might respond to their opinion with anything more respectful than "pffffft."
posted by flabdablet at 10:41 AM on March 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
No, let's not.
The whole theft thing is bullshit. Musicians have always played grooves and licks they've enjoyed hearing other people play. Sometimes they do more interesting things with them than the musicians they got them from. Even entire cover versions can occasionally crap upon the originals from a great height.
Lots of people claim Led Zeppelin never did anything original or worthwhile. It's a fashionable thing to claim. It's also a dangerous thing to claim, as it leaves the claimant so open to being written off as a blowhard poseur desperately attempting to deflect attention from their own complete lack of any lasting cultural contribution.
The day an anti-Zep critic works out a way to make me wish to follow a sound upstream until my head is stuck right inside a PA speaker cabinet operating at full volume, regardless of any consideration of my future ability to hear anything ever again, when it's their playing coming out of it: that's the day I might respond to their opinion with anything more respectful than "pffffft."
posted by flabdablet at 10:41 AM on March 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ray, that is exactly what Achewood's Roast Beef would say, nice.
posted by ajryan at 10:47 AM on March 29, 2015
posted by ajryan at 10:47 AM on March 29, 2015
Jimmy Page stealing licks and grooves from some dead yurpeen
posted by flabdablet at 10:58 AM on March 29, 2015
posted by flabdablet at 10:58 AM on March 29, 2015
Jimi Hendrix stealing licks and grooves from The Anacreontic Song and Taps
posted by flabdablet at 11:03 AM on March 29, 2015
posted by flabdablet at 11:03 AM on March 29, 2015
Whole lotta love, errrnnn, whole lotta love, ernnnn. DeWhomp-puhpuhpupupuh, dewhomp....
posted by clavdivs at 11:42 AM on March 29, 2015
posted by clavdivs at 11:42 AM on March 29, 2015
Yeah, then watch Lenny Kravitz do that justice, it's all good.
posted by Oyéah at 11:58 AM on March 29, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 11:58 AM on March 29, 2015
"Butt rock" is a bit like "yacht rock" as a category - it was never a very rigidly defined thing, and suffers a bit from being a term introduced some time after the actual music in question. To me, "butt rock" always seemed to imply some sleaziness, and in fact I remember some people in the 90s (which is when the term seems to have gotten popular at least) actually referring to "sleazy butt rock." I always felt like it was a catch all category for those looking back on the 1980s from the vantage of the 1990s, and referred to stuff that was a bit more middle-of-the-road than the edgier categories - like butt rock was "hair metal" that got to the point where describing it as "metal" was probably going too far. Butt rock featured guys in perms singing stupid, sexist songs about chicks and chasing groupies and playing arena rock and all that. I don't know - like I say, a vague category, as derisive categories usually are, although (again, like yacht rock) some people ended up having some nostalgic fondness for it.
posted by koeselitz at 11:59 AM on March 29, 2015
posted by koeselitz at 11:59 AM on March 29, 2015
flabdablet: "Lots of people claim Led Zeppelin never did anything original or worthwhile. It's a fashionable thing to claim. It's also a dangerous thing to claim, as it leaves the claimant so open to being written off as a blowhard poseur desperately attempting to deflect attention from their own complete lack of any lasting cultural contribution... The day an anti-Zep critic works out a way to make me wish to follow a sound upstream until my head is stuck right inside a PA speaker cabinet operating at full volume, regardless of any consideration of my future ability to hear anything ever again, when it's their playing coming out of it: that's the day I might respond to their opinion with anything more respectful than 'pffffft.'"
Well - it has been done. Lester Bangs:
"What we need are more rock 'stars' willing to make fools of themselves, absolutely jump off the deep end and make the audience embarrassed for them if necessary, so long as they have not one shred of dignity or mythic corona left. Because then the whole damn pompous edifice of this supremely ridiculous rock ‘n’ roll industry, set up to grab by conning youth and encouraging fantasies of a puissant 'youth culture,' would collapse, and with it would collapse the careers of the hyped talentless nonentities who breed off of it. Can you imagine Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant conning the audience: 'I’m gonna give you every inch of my love'—he really gives them nothing, not even a good-natured grinful 'Howdy-do'—Or Jimmy Page’s arch scowl of super-musician ennui?"
And it's often hard for me to disagree with him. At the very least, I see his point of view of it; and Lester is one who contributed plenty to society. As much as I love Zepp, as much as I can rock out to "Immigrant Song" with the best of them, and in particular as much as I love all they wrought, from brilliant oddities like Budgie to Judas Priest to the NWOBHM - I see the waste and wankery of it all, the silly pretension and obnoxious greed and in particular the exploitation. And Zepp are part of that, let's not kid ourselves; they are part of the broad and thoroughgoing white exploitation of black music that can't be ignored or denied.
I think it's fair to have complicated feelings about Led Zeppelin. It might be the only just way to approach them, really.
posted by koeselitz at 12:16 PM on March 29, 2015
Well - it has been done. Lester Bangs:
"What we need are more rock 'stars' willing to make fools of themselves, absolutely jump off the deep end and make the audience embarrassed for them if necessary, so long as they have not one shred of dignity or mythic corona left. Because then the whole damn pompous edifice of this supremely ridiculous rock ‘n’ roll industry, set up to grab by conning youth and encouraging fantasies of a puissant 'youth culture,' would collapse, and with it would collapse the careers of the hyped talentless nonentities who breed off of it. Can you imagine Led Zeppelin without Robert Plant conning the audience: 'I’m gonna give you every inch of my love'—he really gives them nothing, not even a good-natured grinful 'Howdy-do'—Or Jimmy Page’s arch scowl of super-musician ennui?"
And it's often hard for me to disagree with him. At the very least, I see his point of view of it; and Lester is one who contributed plenty to society. As much as I love Zepp, as much as I can rock out to "Immigrant Song" with the best of them, and in particular as much as I love all they wrought, from brilliant oddities like Budgie to Judas Priest to the NWOBHM - I see the waste and wankery of it all, the silly pretension and obnoxious greed and in particular the exploitation. And Zepp are part of that, let's not kid ourselves; they are part of the broad and thoroughgoing white exploitation of black music that can't be ignored or denied.
I think it's fair to have complicated feelings about Led Zeppelin. It might be the only just way to approach them, really.
posted by koeselitz at 12:16 PM on March 29, 2015
a quiz: when you put on "Rock and Roll" from Zeppelin IV and that epic drum intro starts, your first thought is:
a) holy fuck, that drummer is playing with the kind of groove and reckless abandon that makes me fear for the very space-time continuum;
b) (the music fundamentally rewires all rational cognition and you react merely with your reptile brain);
c) maybe I'd like this if it wasn't produced by a bunch of limey posers who shamelessly knicked everything from Willie Dixon.
(yes you too, Lester).
posted by fingers_of_fire at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2015
a) holy fuck, that drummer is playing with the kind of groove and reckless abandon that makes me fear for the very space-time continuum;
b) (the music fundamentally rewires all rational cognition and you react merely with your reptile brain);
c) maybe I'd like this if it wasn't produced by a bunch of limey posers who shamelessly knicked everything from Willie Dixon.
(yes you too, Lester).
posted by fingers_of_fire at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2015
Somebody should do a genealogy of "butt rock"--my sense is that took over some but not all of the reference of the predecessor term "cock rock," but lost a lot of the punk critique of both mindless macho posturing and AOR per se, and picked up a lot of the traditional rockist slur of "fagginess." Jello Biafra would've called Motley Crüe "cock rockers," but post-grunge rock bros would've later called them "butt rockers," at least prior to the great becoming cool again of all things that have been...
posted by batfish at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by batfish at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
also - Miles repeatedly credits Frank Sinatra with influencing his sense of phrasing, particularly on ballads. So I guess we can't enjoy Miles anymore, right?
Anyway, Billy rocks. Rock and roll music is awesome. Even when it isn't utterly 100% original.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 1:21 PM on March 29, 2015
Anyway, Billy rocks. Rock and roll music is awesome. Even when it isn't utterly 100% original.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 1:21 PM on March 29, 2015
Re Led Zeppelin's Rock and Roll:
In the eighties I was too cool to like Billy Squire, now these are great songs to hear while out in the car and crank up. Glad to hear his life became one of riches and nature conservancy. One could do worse.
posted by readery at 2:19 PM on March 29, 2015
Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page has said that this song came to be written as a spontaneous jam session, whilst the band were trying (and failing) to finish the track "Four Sticks". Drummer John Bonham played the introduction to Little Richard's "Keep a Knockin'" and Page added a guitar riff. The tapes were rolling and fifteen minutes later the basis of the song was down.All is imitation.
In the eighties I was too cool to like Billy Squire, now these are great songs to hear while out in the car and crank up. Glad to hear his life became one of riches and nature conservancy. One could do worse.
posted by readery at 2:19 PM on March 29, 2015
Oh, I don't think you're required to despise Led Zeppelin. Like I said, it makes more sense to have conflicted feelings about them; because it's true all at once that (a) they were an amazing band that created their own specific mystique which was so enduring and essential that it spawned whole genres and ideologies about modernity; and (b) they were part of a massive capitalistic exploitation, both of (as Lester points out) youth culture of the 1960s and the 1970s, and of (more importantly, I think) the important black music that was part of the African-American identity. In particular that latter form of exploitation was (is!) a huge and problematic thing that's much bigger than Led Zeppelin and that predates them by at least a century. As such, frankly even critics of Zepp probably have a lot to learn on that point - because we can't criticize Led Zeppelin for ripping off Willie Dixon (which they did, shamelessly and without attribution or monetary compensation) without at the very same time recognizing that almost every other white artist of the time had the same problem, that this was a widespread thing; the enormity of it is something we often overlook just because we'd like to get in our digs against this one super popular band that it's cool to hate. And you can believe all that without forcing yourself to pretend that IV isn't a brain-meltingly good album, without sitting there and forcing a yawn whilst pretending you aren't enjoying it.
It's okay to like things in a complicated way, to enjoy things that you know are a little problematic. It's a lot more honest than pretending to be intellectually pure in your artistic tastes.
(Also, incidentally I'm surprised nobody's said this yet, but I've always felt like the real Zeppelin resonance in the awesome "Lonely Is The Night" is the way the chorus sounds eerily similar to the chorus of "Good Times Bad Times." But maybe that's just me.)
posted by koeselitz at 2:36 PM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's okay to like things in a complicated way, to enjoy things that you know are a little problematic. It's a lot more honest than pretending to be intellectually pure in your artistic tastes.
(Also, incidentally I'm surprised nobody's said this yet, but I've always felt like the real Zeppelin resonance in the awesome "Lonely Is The Night" is the way the chorus sounds eerily similar to the chorus of "Good Times Bad Times." But maybe that's just me.)
posted by koeselitz at 2:36 PM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Jello Biafra would've called Motley Crüe "cock rockers," but post-grunge rock bros would've later called them "butt rockers," at least prior to the great becoming cool again of all things that have been...
Actually, Jello Biafra, arguing against the notion that Motley Crue was promoting satanism, referred to these acts on his first spoken word album as "skilled vaudeville comedians" which I always liked. I think his assessment is appropriately dismissive but endorses the entertainment value without using a more derogatory term like "butt rock" or "cock rock." I just prefer to use Butt Rock because, well, butt.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 3:20 PM on March 29, 2015
Actually, Jello Biafra, arguing against the notion that Motley Crue was promoting satanism, referred to these acts on his first spoken word album as "skilled vaudeville comedians" which I always liked. I think his assessment is appropriately dismissive but endorses the entertainment value without using a more derogatory term like "butt rock" or "cock rock." I just prefer to use Butt Rock because, well, butt.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 3:20 PM on March 29, 2015
I think it might be a both/and and contextual type situation, Slarty Bartfast. "Cock rock" was definitely a term of art in the punk world of that time, and one of JB's callouts in particular. Maybe you could make the argument that there's a Motley Crüe vaudeville comedian loophole that actually excludes the "cock rock" label, but I don't really see it...
posted by batfish at 4:11 PM on March 29, 2015
posted by batfish at 4:11 PM on March 29, 2015
Quiz answer: (b).
The liking is not even slightly complicated and nor is it problematic. It isn't sexual but it certainly shares a lot of the same circuitry.
posted by flabdablet at 7:26 PM on March 29, 2015
The liking is not even slightly complicated and nor is it problematic. It isn't sexual but it certainly shares a lot of the same circuitry.
posted by flabdablet at 7:26 PM on March 29, 2015
Er – so you really just don't like Willie Dixon? Because getting fucked over by Zepp actually literally physically hurt him. He was a fantastic blues musician all his life, compensated meagerly and struggling to get by, and ended up losing his leg to diabetes. He finally won a court settlement five years before he died, but it was too little too late. And he was one of myriads.
You can't just say that musicians borrow stuff all the time. It would have taken next to nothing for Page and Plant to stand up and acknowledge whose music they were building on, to pay royalties on it and to name their names and hold them up as inspirations, which is what decent musicians do. Instead they intentionally obfuscated their influences and fought hard not to give up a penny to people to whom they owed it. Musicians borrow, yes – but decent musicians say something about it, acknowledge their debts, and care for other musicians. Led Zeppelin – like tens of thousands of successful white artists before and after them – did not acknowledge or care for the contributions of black musical pioneers.
It's hard not to feel complicated things about that. I don't think it removes anything of Led Zeppelin's achievement in itself – but it is an actual, real, legitimate thing, not some chimera dreamed up by people who want to hate a popular band.
posted by koeselitz at 11:02 PM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can't just say that musicians borrow stuff all the time. It would have taken next to nothing for Page and Plant to stand up and acknowledge whose music they were building on, to pay royalties on it and to name their names and hold them up as inspirations, which is what decent musicians do. Instead they intentionally obfuscated their influences and fought hard not to give up a penny to people to whom they owed it. Musicians borrow, yes – but decent musicians say something about it, acknowledge their debts, and care for other musicians. Led Zeppelin – like tens of thousands of successful white artists before and after them – did not acknowledge or care for the contributions of black musical pioneers.
It's hard not to feel complicated things about that. I don't think it removes anything of Led Zeppelin's achievement in itself – but it is an actual, real, legitimate thing, not some chimera dreamed up by people who want to hate a popular band.
posted by koeselitz at 11:02 PM on March 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
The whole theft thing is bullshit.
If you are talking about Zeppelin, it's really not bullshit. That's not taking inspiration, it's not some notion of culture as necessarily being appropriation or remix, it's straight grabbing someone else's entire song and claiming (legally) that it's yours.
posted by thelonius at 11:04 PM on March 29, 2015
If you are talking about Zeppelin, it's really not bullshit. That's not taking inspiration, it's not some notion of culture as necessarily being appropriation or remix, it's straight grabbing someone else's entire song and claiming (legally) that it's yours.
posted by thelonius at 11:04 PM on March 29, 2015
so you really just don't like Willie Dixon?
I like him just fine. His recordings, however, do not move me physically to anywhere near the extent that Zeppelin's do.
getting fucked over by Zepp
Are you seriously claiming that having an internationally popular band play stuff based partly or even largely on something written by any given composer could actually be bad for that composer's career?
How many more people do you think are aware of Willie Dixon at all than would have been the case had he not been a heavy influence on Zeppelin?
posted by flabdablet at 11:20 PM on March 29, 2015
I like him just fine. His recordings, however, do not move me physically to anywhere near the extent that Zeppelin's do.
getting fucked over by Zepp
Are you seriously claiming that having an internationally popular band play stuff based partly or even largely on something written by any given composer could actually be bad for that composer's career?
How many more people do you think are aware of Willie Dixon at all than would have been the case had he not been a heavy influence on Zeppelin?
posted by flabdablet at 11:20 PM on March 29, 2015
flabdablet: “Are you seriously claiming that having an internationally popular band play stuff based partly or even largely on something written by any given composer could actually be bad for that composer's career?”
Are you seriously claiming that the many-decades-long outright theft of black music by white musicians was a completely unimportant and just development that only helped those black artists rather than stealing their livelihood and profiteering off of it?
“How many more people do you think are aware of Willie Dixon at all than would have been the case had he not been a heavy influence on Zeppelin?”
How many people do you think are aware of Led Zeppelin specifically because of songs of Willie Dixon's? How many people know Led Zeppelin because of "Whole Lotta Love"? How much money did that song make them? That's not their money. And their refusal to acknowledge that debt is execrable.
The fact that they make great music doesn't mean they're wonderful people. And it doesn't mean you have to pretend they are.
posted by koeselitz at 8:38 AM on March 30, 2015
Are you seriously claiming that the many-decades-long outright theft of black music by white musicians was a completely unimportant and just development that only helped those black artists rather than stealing their livelihood and profiteering off of it?
“How many more people do you think are aware of Willie Dixon at all than would have been the case had he not been a heavy influence on Zeppelin?”
How many people do you think are aware of Led Zeppelin specifically because of songs of Willie Dixon's? How many people know Led Zeppelin because of "Whole Lotta Love"? How much money did that song make them? That's not their money. And their refusal to acknowledge that debt is execrable.
The fact that they make great music doesn't mean they're wonderful people. And it doesn't mean you have to pretend they are.
posted by koeselitz at 8:38 AM on March 30, 2015
"Whole Lotta Love" is built around a killer Jimmy Page riff. Willie Dixon didn't write that song. Led Zeppelin did.
The lyrics contain a few phrases that Willie Dixon also used ("you need coolin'" and "way down inside, you need love"). That's not appropriation, that's influence. It's also not a huge part of what made that song succeed: over that riff, Plant could have just sung whaaaarrrgarble and it would still have been one of the most epic blues-rock tracks of all time.
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 AM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
The lyrics contain a few phrases that Willie Dixon also used ("you need coolin'" and "way down inside, you need love"). That's not appropriation, that's influence. It's also not a huge part of what made that song succeed: over that riff, Plant could have just sung whaaaarrrgarble and it would still have been one of the most epic blues-rock tracks of all time.
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 AM on March 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Robert Plant was 20 when Led Zep I was released and 19 when it was written and recorded. The rest of the crew weren't much older. Led Zep II was released ~six months later.
They weren't educated - colleges might reinforce strict rules on attribution and plagiarism, but playing blues in various bars and jam sessions really doesn't. And then, Blues and Folk music have a long, long tradition of inspiration and outright theft. Not to mention that modern notions and ideas about cultural appropriation and such were not widely accepted ideas at the time. These were just kids having fun.
To a large extent, complaints about Led Zep being thieves rings a bit like accusing Shakespeare of being a misogynist anti-semite. It's true so far as it goes, but it elides an entire context and more importantly, ignores the really more salient question - is the work any good ?
Because LZ was amazing. Whatever the source material, the result was astounding.
how we get from Billy Squire to Led Zep, I don't even know - they are barely even the same genre
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:20 AM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
They weren't educated - colleges might reinforce strict rules on attribution and plagiarism, but playing blues in various bars and jam sessions really doesn't. And then, Blues and Folk music have a long, long tradition of inspiration and outright theft. Not to mention that modern notions and ideas about cultural appropriation and such were not widely accepted ideas at the time. These were just kids having fun.
To a large extent, complaints about Led Zep being thieves rings a bit like accusing Shakespeare of being a misogynist anti-semite. It's true so far as it goes, but it elides an entire context and more importantly, ignores the really more salient question - is the work any good ?
Because LZ was amazing. Whatever the source material, the result was astounding.
how we get from Billy Squire to Led Zep, I don't even know - they are barely even the same genre
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:20 AM on March 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
fingers_of_fire: “(the music fundamentally rewires all rational cognition and you react merely with your reptile brain)”
This is part of what's most tedious about talking about Led Zeppelin with people. Whatever you think about their music, they were generally humorless and pretentious – their few stabs at humor were bad jokes that were utterly misunderstood anyway – and everyone and their dog has pretty much gone along with that. Every single one of the critics that took pleasure in hating that insanely popular band in the 1970s is dead now, and we're left alone with all the billions of people who unreservedly love them, to the point of telling anyone that doesn't adore Led Zeppelin that they're complete idiots.
And yet – here we are – the whole idea of a triune brain on which the idea of a "reptilian brain" is grounded is a bit silly and simplistic in the grand scheme of things. It has no really rigorous scientific biological basis. When we connect with Led Zeppelin, we're not connecting with putative lizards brains. We're connecting with our childish brain – with the 12-year-old boy in us. Which is fine, but after a while it gets a bit tiresome, on many dimensions – it gets tiresome hearing that the soul of a woman was created below, most of all, and it gets tiresome hearing about how Robert Plant is gonna give us every inch of his love.
Big riffs only take you so far. Led Zeppelin initiated a decades-long investigation into the occult which led thousands upon thousands of bands into the darkest recesses of the soul and into the nooks and crannies not pondered by conventional or traditional paths. For that, I have to give them credit. But at the end of the day, I'd much rather listen to Budgie or Meshuggah or a dozen other metal bands – none of which would ever exist without Led Zeppelin – than Zepp themselves.
posted by koeselitz at 10:42 PM on April 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is part of what's most tedious about talking about Led Zeppelin with people. Whatever you think about their music, they were generally humorless and pretentious – their few stabs at humor were bad jokes that were utterly misunderstood anyway – and everyone and their dog has pretty much gone along with that. Every single one of the critics that took pleasure in hating that insanely popular band in the 1970s is dead now, and we're left alone with all the billions of people who unreservedly love them, to the point of telling anyone that doesn't adore Led Zeppelin that they're complete idiots.
And yet – here we are – the whole idea of a triune brain on which the idea of a "reptilian brain" is grounded is a bit silly and simplistic in the grand scheme of things. It has no really rigorous scientific biological basis. When we connect with Led Zeppelin, we're not connecting with putative lizards brains. We're connecting with our childish brain – with the 12-year-old boy in us. Which is fine, but after a while it gets a bit tiresome, on many dimensions – it gets tiresome hearing that the soul of a woman was created below, most of all, and it gets tiresome hearing about how Robert Plant is gonna give us every inch of his love.
Big riffs only take you so far. Led Zeppelin initiated a decades-long investigation into the occult which led thousands upon thousands of bands into the darkest recesses of the soul and into the nooks and crannies not pondered by conventional or traditional paths. For that, I have to give them credit. But at the end of the day, I'd much rather listen to Budgie or Meshuggah or a dozen other metal bands – none of which would ever exist without Led Zeppelin – than Zepp themselves.
posted by koeselitz at 10:42 PM on April 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by dfan at 1:20 PM on March 28, 2015 [11 favorites]