spoilers!
April 3, 2015 6:50 AM Subscribe
Before reading the new chapters (I haven't), perhaps it's time for some exegesis.
posted by lalochezia at 7:11 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by lalochezia at 7:11 AM on April 3, 2015
Thanks for sharing this summary of chapters. After I chewed my way through the five books last year, I was really tempted to find all these stray chapters, or better yet, some fan-made "draft" of TWoW. I searched for a cohesive document, and finding none, I was tempted to make one myself, but then I got lazy and forgot about that would-be project.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:22 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by filthy light thief at 7:22 AM on April 3, 2015
The new chapter may be juicy as hell, but by the old god and the new it is terribly written. And edited, too--at some point Alayne 'shutters,' and there's some weird bit about a 'pimply-gingerlad.'
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:25 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:25 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pimply Gingerlad is my Gnomish Bard.
posted by echocollate at 8:12 AM on April 3, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by echocollate at 8:12 AM on April 3, 2015 [17 favorites]
Indeterminate length, incohesive, poorly written and edited? Yup, sounds like a legit Game of Thrones novel. How many times does he repeat the phrase "fearsomely strong mead" in the new chapters? I think he got it in 6 times in one of the first chapters of the last book. Positively Homeric.
I sure wish fantasy and sci-fi would stop giving successful writers a blank check and enforce some deadlines and editing. For prose quality at least, if not page count. The later Harry Potter books, the Neal Stephenson baroque cycle, Kim Stanley Robinson's Blue Mars, and now the Game of Thrones books would all benefit greatly from some discipline.
At least the HBO series is forced to keep things under control, for budget. I'm convinced the TV show will become the definitive Game of Thrones story with GRRM's later novels seen as some oddly sprawling apocrypha.
posted by Nelson at 8:16 AM on April 3, 2015 [12 favorites]
I sure wish fantasy and sci-fi would stop giving successful writers a blank check and enforce some deadlines and editing. For prose quality at least, if not page count. The later Harry Potter books, the Neal Stephenson baroque cycle, Kim Stanley Robinson's Blue Mars, and now the Game of Thrones books would all benefit greatly from some discipline.
At least the HBO series is forced to keep things under control, for budget. I'm convinced the TV show will become the definitive Game of Thrones story with GRRM's later novels seen as some oddly sprawling apocrypha.
posted by Nelson at 8:16 AM on April 3, 2015 [12 favorites]
Dude, I just googled my way to this article yesterday, because I finished ADWD two days ago. Time to finally dig in!
posted by stoneandstar at 8:38 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by stoneandstar at 8:38 AM on April 3, 2015
I sure wish fantasy and sci-fi would stop giving successful writers a blank check and enforce some deadlines and editing. For prose quality at least, if not page count. The later Harry Potter books, the Neal Stephenson baroque cycle, Kim Stanley Robinson's Blue Mars, and now the Game of Thrones books would all benefit greatly from some discipline.
what and pay an editor? i think all great novels are the product of extensive and often uncompensated editing e.g. Tolstoy's wife.
But, ask yourself, what is the value-added proposition for editing GoT? The book series as it stands shows that the audience will buy any old thing; that's the beauty of the genre market: very low overhead.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:50 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
what and pay an editor? i think all great novels are the product of extensive and often uncompensated editing e.g. Tolstoy's wife.
But, ask yourself, what is the value-added proposition for editing GoT? The book series as it stands shows that the audience will buy any old thing; that's the beauty of the genre market: very low overhead.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:50 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Positively Homeric.
lol. So very true. I agree about the repetitiousness and need for editors ("fiery Dornish peppers!" is how we annoy each other when cooking spicy food in my house), but I also found that the writing in the last half of ADWD was massively better than anything else in the series. (The final Quentyn chapter was legitimately dank and frightening, one of the Jon chapters had a bit of amusing dialogue reminiscent of Pratchett, etc.) I liked how the Harry Potter books matured over time-- it suited the subject material-- and while the ASOIAF arc doesn't have the benefit of that convenient parallelism, I hope the writing continues to grow in TWOT.
Since the first book I'd given up the idea of reading anything of quality in this series, but the end of ADWD made me hope. Well-written, trashy romps please.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:54 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
lol. So very true. I agree about the repetitiousness and need for editors ("fiery Dornish peppers!" is how we annoy each other when cooking spicy food in my house), but I also found that the writing in the last half of ADWD was massively better than anything else in the series. (The final Quentyn chapter was legitimately dank and frightening, one of the Jon chapters had a bit of amusing dialogue reminiscent of Pratchett, etc.) I liked how the Harry Potter books matured over time-- it suited the subject material-- and while the ASOIAF arc doesn't have the benefit of that convenient parallelism, I hope the writing continues to grow in TWOT.
Since the first book I'd given up the idea of reading anything of quality in this series, but the end of ADWD made me hope. Well-written, trashy romps please.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:54 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
... and now I'm going to read this new chapter, and have my dreams shattered, it seems...
posted by stoneandstar at 8:55 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by stoneandstar at 8:55 AM on April 3, 2015
I'm convinced the TV show will become the definitive Game of Thrones story with GRRM's later novels seen as some oddly sprawling apocrypha.
Ah, but there are characters missing from the series I was really looking forward to see on the screen. No Strong Belwas? Bah! Some times I wish the seasons were extended by another 5 episodes each, to capture more of the moments I loved from the books.
But at the same time, I'm really happy with a lot of the re-writing and re-focusing done in the TV series, as it has made me enjoy the core of the stories more. In that way, it feels similar to Brandon Sanderson's completion of the Wheel of Time series. Jordan created a great universe and general plot, but Sanderson brought the stories (back) to life. I wish more authors embraced the fact that they're great as "idea people" or "portrayers of life in words," and look to coordinate with their counterparts to make an even better story.
... and now I'm going to read this new chapter, and have my dreams shattered, it seems...
One reason I haven't read the new material is that I'm considering it to be drafts. If I read them, they'd be for general content, not for the writing. Also, I enjoy binge reading, and I have trouble reading a chapter every few weeks (or months) and keeping the threads untangled (or remembering them at all).
posted by filthy light thief at 8:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ah, but there are characters missing from the series I was really looking forward to see on the screen. No Strong Belwas? Bah! Some times I wish the seasons were extended by another 5 episodes each, to capture more of the moments I loved from the books.
But at the same time, I'm really happy with a lot of the re-writing and re-focusing done in the TV series, as it has made me enjoy the core of the stories more. In that way, it feels similar to Brandon Sanderson's completion of the Wheel of Time series. Jordan created a great universe and general plot, but Sanderson brought the stories (back) to life. I wish more authors embraced the fact that they're great as "idea people" or "portrayers of life in words," and look to coordinate with their counterparts to make an even better story.
... and now I'm going to read this new chapter, and have my dreams shattered, it seems...
One reason I haven't read the new material is that I'm considering it to be drafts. If I read them, they'd be for general content, not for the writing. Also, I enjoy binge reading, and I have trouble reading a chapter every few weeks (or months) and keeping the threads untangled (or remembering them at all).
posted by filthy light thief at 8:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
"George R.R. Martin is not your bitch." - 2009
"George R.R. Martin is not your a bitch." - 2015
posted by Fizz at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2015
"George R.R. Martin is
posted by Fizz at 9:03 AM on April 3, 2015
For prose quality at least, if not page count. The later Harry Potter books
I think the Harry Potters actually varied in quality pretty wildly through the series. The second one is clearly the worst book, by any metric, the third probably the strongest. 4 is the most obviously broken, plot-wise, but that is not through lack of editing, it's because the plot holes were unfixable in the time available. I think 5 is better, and 6 better yet, but that 7 falls apart, not through lack of discipline, but because it abandons the school year, which is the fundamental device underpinning the series.
Which is by way of saying that I am not sure that this is a genre problem, per se, but rather that writing books is hard, and that book series show up the sorts of variations in quality that all authors exhibit.
posted by howfar at 9:04 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think the Harry Potters actually varied in quality pretty wildly through the series. The second one is clearly the worst book, by any metric, the third probably the strongest. 4 is the most obviously broken, plot-wise, but that is not through lack of editing, it's because the plot holes were unfixable in the time available. I think 5 is better, and 6 better yet, but that 7 falls apart, not through lack of discipline, but because it abandons the school year, which is the fundamental device underpinning the series.
Which is by way of saying that I am not sure that this is a genre problem, per se, but rather that writing books is hard, and that book series show up the sorts of variations in quality that all authors exhibit.
posted by howfar at 9:04 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I know I need to go cold turkey on these sample chapters and just read the book when it comes out, but I can't help myself.
The chapter wasn't actually juicy as hell, but it was interesting to read about Sansa when she's happy.
posted by Area Man at 9:10 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
The chapter wasn't actually juicy as hell, but it was interesting to read about Sansa when she's happy.
posted by Area Man at 9:10 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
But, ask yourself, what is the value-added proposition for editing GoT?
Or Rowling, or King, or Rice, or Clancy... no publisher of a guaranteed-best-selling author (at least the kind of author where the books fly off the shelves and fans line up to get the book on publishing day) sees any value in taking time & money for editing anything more than SPAG. (And sometimes not even then.)
It's a real shame, because it so often leads to bloat and the writer becomes a victim of their own success. Nobody was going to tell Rowling that the Endless Camping Trip of Depression went on too long, and the book would have been better if it were 20% shorter. (The ur-text for this problem is Robert Jordan.)
It's enough to justify, in my mind, Rowling's decision to publish under another name. At least that way she had to start from scratch, and go through a more strict editorial review. I haven't read her Galbraith books, but from what I hear, they're quite good, and the prose is better than in the Potter books.
posted by suelac at 9:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Or Rowling, or King, or Rice, or Clancy... no publisher of a guaranteed-best-selling author (at least the kind of author where the books fly off the shelves and fans line up to get the book on publishing day) sees any value in taking time & money for editing anything more than SPAG. (And sometimes not even then.)
It's a real shame, because it so often leads to bloat and the writer becomes a victim of their own success. Nobody was going to tell Rowling that the Endless Camping Trip of Depression went on too long, and the book would have been better if it were 20% shorter. (The ur-text for this problem is Robert Jordan.)
It's enough to justify, in my mind, Rowling's decision to publish under another name. At least that way she had to start from scratch, and go through a more strict editorial review. I haven't read her Galbraith books, but from what I hear, they're quite good, and the prose is better than in the Potter books.
posted by suelac at 9:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
But, ask yourself, what is the value-added proposition for editing GoT? The book series as it stands shows that the audience will buy any old thing; that's the beauty of the genre market: very low overhead.
I'd revise that to say the pulp-pop market, not genre market. There's popular, escapist dreck in many categories. Romance? Yes. Real life adventure biographies? Yes. Political pontification? Yes.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:47 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd revise that to say the pulp-pop market, not genre market. There's popular, escapist dreck in many categories. Romance? Yes. Real life adventure biographies? Yes. Political pontification? Yes.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:47 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Okay, I need some advice. Should I watch Game of Thrones? Because I have a feeling that it's a long, long story without any discernible arc, one of those shows that's just cliffhanger after cliffhanger that builds and builds with no real ending or closure, and piles upon piles of subplots like Lost. Is this a legitimate concern? I haven't read the books and have no intention to do so.
posted by Ratio at 10:03 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ratio at 10:03 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm so fed up with this series, I s2fg. The character list has metastasized completely fucking out of control, there's maybe a grand total of 15% characters/arcs I actually care about and 85% tedious fucking dross with INCREDIBLY VALUABLE PLOT POINTS hidden within, like literally a single sentence stuck in 10 pages of utter fucking mishegoss, I want to punch everyone and everything forever. So I miss fantastically important things and have to go back and slog through a zillion endless pages of shit that I just don't care about and never will and it's like I'm doing fucking homework for something that started out as enjoyable and ended up like being trapped on a chain gang with 5 million pedantic nerds.
AND I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT FUCKING HAPPENS
so really the person i am angriest with is myself
posted by poffin boffin at 10:05 AM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
AND I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT FUCKING HAPPENS
so really the person i am angriest with is myself
posted by poffin boffin at 10:05 AM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
I love reading the wiki though but in the end it just makes me mad again at all the stuff that I missed the first 5 times around.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nnnno. Mostly. There are basically a shifting series of about five plots going on at any given time. Occasionally two will meld. There are peaks and valleys, not just one cliff after another.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you've waited this long, it's probably safe to wait another couple of years when we should have a more definitive answer to that question. (If HBO actually lets the showrunners finish the show in 7 seasons like they want to.)
posted by kmz at 10:07 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by kmz at 10:07 AM on April 3, 2015
...but I also found that the writing in the last half of ADWD was massively better than anything else in the series.
I would agree. The last book in the series so far has the most jumbled and contorted plotting imaginable, which is very frustrating, but it also has some of the best character writing, and some nice glittering flashes of humour.
posted by ovvl at 10:13 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would agree. The last book in the series so far has the most jumbled and contorted plotting imaginable, which is very frustrating, but it also has some of the best character writing, and some nice glittering flashes of humour.
posted by ovvl at 10:13 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nelson: The later Harry Potter books, the Neal Stephenson baroque cycle, Kim Stanley Robinson's Blue Mars, and now the Game of Thrones books would all benefit greatly from some discipline.
Yes, YES, YES!!!, and yeah, probably. Of that list, the Game of Thrones books are the ones I'm most happy about giving a pass to. KSR should have known better, and Neal Stephenson basically made the Baroque Cycle a tedious slog (although Anathem recovered somewhat, especially in having a reasonable ending, in spite of being the doorstopper that it was). JKR's Cormonant Strike book (The Cuckoo's Calling) was quite decent fun - I'm actually looking forward to Silkworm.
Ratio: Should I watch Game of Thrones?
Sure. If you aren't up on the books, you can treat the TV series as the canonical version, since that's what most readers fear is going to happen anyway. If you're up on the books and enjoyed them, the TV shows have been a decently enjoyable (if heavily edited and somewhat altered) visualization of the books, well worth the time. And if you're up on the books and hated the convoluted complexity, the TV shows are edited to have a somewhat clearer structure. So far.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:17 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, YES, YES!!!, and yeah, probably. Of that list, the Game of Thrones books are the ones I'm most happy about giving a pass to. KSR should have known better, and Neal Stephenson basically made the Baroque Cycle a tedious slog (although Anathem recovered somewhat, especially in having a reasonable ending, in spite of being the doorstopper that it was). JKR's Cormonant Strike book (The Cuckoo's Calling) was quite decent fun - I'm actually looking forward to Silkworm.
Ratio: Should I watch Game of Thrones?
Sure. If you aren't up on the books, you can treat the TV series as the canonical version, since that's what most readers fear is going to happen anyway. If you're up on the books and enjoyed them, the TV shows have been a decently enjoyable (if heavily edited and somewhat altered) visualization of the books, well worth the time. And if you're up on the books and hated the convoluted complexity, the TV shows are edited to have a somewhat clearer structure. So far.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:17 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: like being trapped on a chain gang with 5 million pedantic nerds.
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
It is completely and utterly fitting that George R R Martin is still on livejournal and only on livejournal.
posted by shmegegge at 10:28 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by shmegegge at 10:28 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yup, juicy as hell:
…Sixty-four dishes were served, in honor of the sixty-four competitors who had come so far to contest for silver wings before their lord. From the rivers and the lakes came pike and trout and salmon, from the seas crabs and cod and herring. Ducks there were, and capons, peacocks in their plumage and swans in almond milk. Suckling pigs were served up crackling with apples in their mouths, and three huge aurochs were roasted whole above firepits in the castle yard, since they were too big to get through the kitchen doors. Loaves of hot bread filled the trestle tables in Lord Nestor’s hall, and massive wheels of cheese were brought up from the vaults. The butter was fresh-churned, and there were leeks and carrots, roasted onions, beets, turnips, parsnips. And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.…posted by nicepersonality at 10:43 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
One reason I haven't read the new material is that I'm considering it to be drafts.
Indeed. In many cases they haven't been published at all, and are just the recollections of people who attended readings.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:45 AM on April 3, 2015
Indeed. In many cases they haven't been published at all, and are just the recollections of people who attended readings.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:45 AM on April 3, 2015
It is completely and utterly fitting that George R R Martin is still on livejournal and only on livejournal.
It gets better. He still uses WordStar to write.
posted by offalark at 10:56 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
It gets better. He still uses WordStar to write.
posted by offalark at 10:56 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
It gets better. He still uses WordStar to write.
I was about to post the same tidbit of info. When he told Conan O'Brien this, Conan asked if his computer is made of wood.
posted by sparkletone at 10:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was about to post the same tidbit of info. When he told Conan O'Brien this, Conan asked if his computer is made of wood.
posted by sparkletone at 10:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared... some fearsomely strong mead, flavored with fiery Dornish peppers.
posted by Nelson at 11:18 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 11:18 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
So I plowed through all the books over the last three months or so, and it's obvious that although GRRM is a pretty good pulp writer, with an ear for dialog (when he cares) and a mind for plot and pace (when he bothers), he needs an editor. A bit like Stephen King in that regard, really. When he's focused, the writing is tight and fun. But the bloated bits (endless, tedious descriptions of clothing and food: this isn't a low-quality text adventure; you don't need to describe everything in case we might need to pick it up) are torturous.
I found that he was quite good, though, at providing salient recaps so I didn't miss much when I skimmed.
I'll avoid these new chapters for now, if only because I'd rather read them in context--I don't really care what happens so much as how he writes about it.
(Also I've tried to watch the HBO show but find it offensively boring; it's really hard to skip over all the horseriding and battling to get to the witty dialog.)
posted by uncleozzy at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2015
I found that he was quite good, though, at providing salient recaps so I didn't miss much when I skimmed.
I'll avoid these new chapters for now, if only because I'd rather read them in context--I don't really care what happens so much as how he writes about it.
(Also I've tried to watch the HBO show but find it offensively boring; it's really hard to skip over all the horseriding and battling to get to the witty dialog.)
posted by uncleozzy at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2015
In a trencher! With trout, and neeps!
posted by stoneandstar at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Um, that was meant to follow Nelson.
And don't forget the Arbor gold.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
And don't forget the Arbor gold.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
any value in taking time & money for editing anything more than SPAG. (And sometimes not even then.)
So you're saying that they edit for SPAG but only lightly, or SPAG BOL?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:26 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
So you're saying that they edit for SPAG but only lightly, or SPAG BOL?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:26 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I stopped after the second book, and I even find the TV show to be about two-thirds boring filler mostly shot in the dark with undifferentiated bearded men and a third interesting, well-produced drama.
I wonder what would have happened if Martin had been allowed to write this story as the trilogy he originally conceived. I bet it would have been pretty great.
posted by gladly at 11:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder what would have happened if Martin had been allowed to write this story as the trilogy he originally conceived. I bet it would have been pretty great.
posted by gladly at 11:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder what would have happened if Martin had been allowed to write this story as the trilogy he originally conceived. I bet it would have been pretty great.
Allowed? What do you mean? Isn't this his fault?
posted by Area Man at 11:44 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Allowed? What do you mean? Isn't this his fault?
posted by Area Man at 11:44 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am now actually quite excited for the upcoming chapter in TWOW where a character drinks fearsomely strong mead out of a trencher, roasted with honey and spices.
GRRM loves his medieval bread bowls.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:51 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
GRRM loves his medieval bread bowls.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:51 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
> "The ur-text for this problem is Robert Jordan."
No one who has read, say, the later works of Stephen R. Donaldson believes that this problem started with Robert Jordan.
posted by kyrademon at 1:19 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
No one who has read, say, the later works of Stephen R. Donaldson believes that this problem started with Robert Jordan.
posted by kyrademon at 1:19 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
The character list has metastasized completely fucking out of control, there's maybe a grand total of 15% characters/arcs I actually care about and 85% tedious fucking dross with INCREDIBLY VALUABLE PLOT POINTS hidden within
This is why I can't wait for the series to get ahead of the books so I can just watch the much shorter show. I don't even remember what happened in books 4-5.
It's enough to justify, in my mind, Rowling's decision to publish under another name. At least that way she had to start from scratch, and go through a more strict editorial review. I haven't read her Galbraith books, but from what I hear, they're quite good, and the prose is better than in the Potter books.
Well if you think about it, Prisoner of Azkaban is much like a mystery novel, and it's well-plotted; it doesn't surprise me that she can do a well plotted mystery. I never minded the prose in Harry Potter, and I think the Galbraith books are much the same but aimed at adults instead of kids.
If you reread book 2 knowing it is a mirror for book 6, it's a lot better. (Equally, rereading 5 as a mirror to 3.) 4 is just unfixable (and my least favourite by far) and 7 would have worked had she not had a setup she felt beholden to (months camping so we can have the final chapter in June like always). This formalism is why I think she is successful in the mystery genre -- she even had Detective Dumbledore Explains It All In The Penultimate Chapter every time (give or take a chapter location).
posted by jeather at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is why I can't wait for the series to get ahead of the books so I can just watch the much shorter show. I don't even remember what happened in books 4-5.
It's enough to justify, in my mind, Rowling's decision to publish under another name. At least that way she had to start from scratch, and go through a more strict editorial review. I haven't read her Galbraith books, but from what I hear, they're quite good, and the prose is better than in the Potter books.
Well if you think about it, Prisoner of Azkaban is much like a mystery novel, and it's well-plotted; it doesn't surprise me that she can do a well plotted mystery. I never minded the prose in Harry Potter, and I think the Galbraith books are much the same but aimed at adults instead of kids.
If you reread book 2 knowing it is a mirror for book 6, it's a lot better. (Equally, rereading 5 as a mirror to 3.) 4 is just unfixable (and my least favourite by far) and 7 would have worked had she not had a setup she felt beholden to (months camping so we can have the final chapter in June like always). This formalism is why I think she is successful in the mystery genre -- she even had Detective Dumbledore Explains It All In The Penultimate Chapter every time (give or take a chapter location).
posted by jeather at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
George RR Martin, Game of Thrones and the triumph of fantasy fiction
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:33 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:33 PM on April 3, 2015
Sometimes I think I must be the only person who found the second half of Storm of Swords to be basically the apex of fantasy writing, full stop. It's just payoff after payoff after payoff on so many characters and plot threads all tightly interwoven. The feeling while reading it was very similar to that while watching the end of Season 3 of The Wire - here, at last, was the return on a massive investment of time and attention.
By comparison Books 4 & 5 were, respectively, depressing and plodding. Daenerys and Tyrion chapters have turned painful with the amount of vacuous nothing they contain, Bran chapters are just Martin inventing new ways to write "and then Jojen suffered and also he's going to die soon." The moment someone mentions Dorne or anybody in any way remotely connected to it my eyelids start drooping.
At this point I'm basically showing up for Arya and Barristan. Previously that list included Jaime and Jon Snow, but those two are now giant question marks that none of the leaked chapters or reading have hinted at.
posted by Ryvar at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
By comparison Books 4 & 5 were, respectively, depressing and plodding. Daenerys and Tyrion chapters have turned painful with the amount of vacuous nothing they contain, Bran chapters are just Martin inventing new ways to write "and then Jojen suffered and also he's going to die soon." The moment someone mentions Dorne or anybody in any way remotely connected to it my eyelids start drooping.
At this point I'm basically showing up for Arya and Barristan. Previously that list included Jaime and Jon Snow, but those two are now giant question marks that none of the leaked chapters or reading have hinted at.
posted by Ryvar at 1:55 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Tonight George was feasting on partridge braised with the tears of the literary and television critics who had read his books and liked them, or who hadn't read the books or liked them, but who had cried and moaned and endlessly belittled his writing all the same. This bird is well salted, he reflected for a moment as grease dribbled down his chin. Then he reached for a trencher full of money and thought of something else.
posted by tempestuoso at 2:01 PM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by tempestuoso at 2:01 PM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
In one intriguing new wrinkle, Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. “This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teases...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:10 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:10 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Varys is actually a Targaryen! Jon Snow was actually switched at birth with Loras Tyrell! Dogs and cats marrying each other!
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:14 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:14 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Varys is actually a Targaryen!
There are people who totally believe that one. Why else would he possibly shave his head other than to hide his silver hair?
posted by Copronymus at 2:21 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are people who totally believe that one. Why else would he possibly shave his head other than to hide his silver hair?
posted by Copronymus at 2:21 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
if usenet were still around in a big way there would totally be alt.sexy.bald.eunuchs
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:22 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:22 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Varys is actually a Targaryen!
The prevailing fan theory these days is that both Jon Snow and Tyrion are half-Targaryens. Aerys and Joanna maybe got it on and Tywin's "since I cannot prove you are not my son" line was a very deliberate phrasing.
posted by Ryvar at 2:29 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
The prevailing fan theory these days is that both Jon Snow and Tyrion are half-Targaryens. Aerys and Joanna maybe got it on and Tywin's "since I cannot prove you are not my son" line was a very deliberate phrasing.
posted by Ryvar at 2:29 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sometimes I think I must be the only person who found the second half of Storm of Swords to be basically the apex of fantasy writing, full stop. It's just payoff after payoff after payoff on so many characters and plot threads all tightly interwoven.
I feel like I... could've felt this way... if I hadn't been spoiled for so many plot events, and also had no brain capacity for all the different shit that was going on. I definitely was like "whoa, moving parts!" but had also invested minimal effort into keeping track of everything in an effort to get to the end (since I was going to watch the show as soon as I finished) and I guess I wish I would've been more appreciative! So there would've been payoff! Maybe I'll reread them in 10 years and be like "duuuude."
posted by stoneandstar at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2015
I feel like I... could've felt this way... if I hadn't been spoiled for so many plot events, and also had no brain capacity for all the different shit that was going on. I definitely was like "whoa, moving parts!" but had also invested minimal effort into keeping track of everything in an effort to get to the end (since I was going to watch the show as soon as I finished) and I guess I wish I would've been more appreciative! So there would've been payoff! Maybe I'll reread them in 10 years and be like "duuuude."
posted by stoneandstar at 2:30 PM on April 3, 2015
...but I also found that the writing in the last half of ADWD was massively better than anything else in the series.
I'm afraid I must demand satisfaction, sirrah.
posted by Justinian at 2:36 PM on April 3, 2015
I'm afraid I must demand satisfaction, sirrah.
posted by Justinian at 2:36 PM on April 3, 2015
The prevailing fan theory these days is that both Jon Snow and Tyrion are half-Targaryens
Yeah. RL=J and all that. Varys as a seekrit Targaryen makes no sense though.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:37 PM on April 3, 2015
Yeah. RL=J and all that. Varys as a seekrit Targaryen makes no sense though.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:37 PM on April 3, 2015
stoneandstar:
Yeah now that you pointed it out it seems obvious in retrospect that timing was a factor. I started reading the series six months before A Storm of Swords was released, so I'd read both of the first two novels twice. After ASoS came out I had five years in which to idly thumb through it over and over before A Feast for Crows landed.
That's probably a decent recipe for "maximally attentive audience," but any way you slice it a shit-ton of plot threads did come together in a variety of interesting ways at that point in the series. The show almost managed to recreate that crescendo but dropped just a few too many balls with the rewrites (HOW COULD YOU LEAVE OUT THE BIT ABOUT TYSHA? SERIOUSLY YOU EVEN TOOK A HUGE CHUNK OF SCREEN TIME TO SET IT UP WITH TYRION'S EXPOSITORY RETELLING IN SEASON 1. JESUS CHRIST WHAT THE EFF, WRITERS?).
posted by Ryvar at 2:40 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah now that you pointed it out it seems obvious in retrospect that timing was a factor. I started reading the series six months before A Storm of Swords was released, so I'd read both of the first two novels twice. After ASoS came out I had five years in which to idly thumb through it over and over before A Feast for Crows landed.
That's probably a decent recipe for "maximally attentive audience," but any way you slice it a shit-ton of plot threads did come together in a variety of interesting ways at that point in the series. The show almost managed to recreate that crescendo but dropped just a few too many balls with the rewrites (HOW COULD YOU LEAVE OUT THE BIT ABOUT TYSHA? SERIOUSLY YOU EVEN TOOK A HUGE CHUNK OF SCREEN TIME TO SET IT UP WITH TYRION'S EXPOSITORY RETELLING IN SEASON 1. JESUS CHRIST WHAT THE EFF, WRITERS?).
posted by Ryvar at 2:40 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Varys is actually a Targaryen!
Probably more support for the secret Merling theory.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:42 PM on April 3, 2015
Probably more support for the secret Merling theory.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:42 PM on April 3, 2015
It gets better. He still uses WordStar to write.
I was about to post the same tidbit of info. When he told Conan O'Brien this, Conan asked if his computer is made of wood.
In defense of WordStar, if you're a touch typist who wants a text editor with as little interface as possible to get in the way of your writing, and you don't need to do much in the way of formatting, it's not a super crazy choice. WordStar's interface owes a lot to text editors like vi--there are commands which rapidly delete/copy/move words, sentences or paragraphs without removing your hands from the keyboard--and it was popular enough that lots of other contemporary applications had a "WordStar mode". Finally, it natively reads and writes rtf files, so there's no weirdo obsolete format to worry about. Martin isn't even the only cranky genre author who uses it.
In fact, you can emulate its interface in Word 2013 if you're so inclined.
posted by pullayup at 2:57 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I was about to post the same tidbit of info. When he told Conan O'Brien this, Conan asked if his computer is made of wood.
In defense of WordStar, if you're a touch typist who wants a text editor with as little interface as possible to get in the way of your writing, and you don't need to do much in the way of formatting, it's not a super crazy choice. WordStar's interface owes a lot to text editors like vi--there are commands which rapidly delete/copy/move words, sentences or paragraphs without removing your hands from the keyboard--and it was popular enough that lots of other contemporary applications had a "WordStar mode". Finally, it natively reads and writes rtf files, so there's no weirdo obsolete format to worry about. Martin isn't even the only cranky genre author who uses it.
In fact, you can emulate its interface in Word 2013 if you're so inclined.
posted by pullayup at 2:57 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm afraid I must demand satisfaction, sirrah
You would begrudge me this morsel, after five thousand pages of thin broth, with an oddment of turnips floating in it!?!!
I can't really defend Book 5 on the grounds of plot, especially since it took me so long to read it that, I don't even, who cares. But there were WHOLE PARAGRAPHS through which I could suspend belief in that book! Characters with dialogue that seemed vaguely real!! Which is saying something.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:58 PM on April 3, 2015
You would begrudge me this morsel, after five thousand pages of thin broth, with an oddment of turnips floating in it!?!!
I can't really defend Book 5 on the grounds of plot, especially since it took me so long to read it that, I don't even, who cares. But there were WHOLE PARAGRAPHS through which I could suspend belief in that book! Characters with dialogue that seemed vaguely real!! Which is saying something.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:58 PM on April 3, 2015
If you had limited it to the Theon Ghost-in-Winterfell chapters I would have agreed with you, but the rest was just filler.
posted by Justinian at 2:59 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by Justinian at 2:59 PM on April 3, 2015
In defense of WordStar, if you're a touch typist who wants a text editor with as little interface as possible to get in the way of your writing, and you don't need to do much in the way of formatting, it's not a super crazy choice.
People go out of their way these days looking for distraction-free word processors. He just kept the old one.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:07 PM on April 3, 2015
People go out of their way these days looking for distraction-free word processors. He just kept the old one.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:07 PM on April 3, 2015
Varys as a seekrit Targaryen makes no sense though.
Here's all the evidence the finest minds of Reddit could muster. It amounts to:
1) The timing and basic sketch of his biography doesn't make it completely impossible
2) His name has a Y in it, like many Targaryen names (and a V, too!)
3) Obviously anyone who supports the Targaryens must be related to them, there is no other reason anyone supports anyone
4) A magician castrated him for magical purposes and most of the other magicians in the books are interested specifically in king's blood, so he must have some
I mean, it's no theory that Littlefinger is feeding carefully selected information about Sansa to the Old Gods through weirwoods, that's for sure.
posted by Copronymus at 3:26 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here's all the evidence the finest minds of Reddit could muster. It amounts to:
1) The timing and basic sketch of his biography doesn't make it completely impossible
2) His name has a Y in it, like many Targaryen names (and a V, too!)
3) Obviously anyone who supports the Targaryens must be related to them, there is no other reason anyone supports anyone
4) A magician castrated him for magical purposes and most of the other magicians in the books are interested specifically in king's blood, so he must have some
I mean, it's no theory that Littlefinger is feeding carefully selected information about Sansa to the Old Gods through weirwoods, that's for sure.
posted by Copronymus at 3:26 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's a real shame, because it so often leads to bloat and the writer becomes a victim of their own success.
cough paging Connie Willis cough 1100 page novel cough cough cough somehow won the Locus, Nebula, and Hugo
posted by BungaDunga at 3:51 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
cough paging Connie Willis cough 1100 page novel cough cough cough somehow won the Locus, Nebula, and Hugo
posted by BungaDunga at 3:51 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sometimes I think I must be the only person who found the second half of Storm of Swords to be basically the apex of fantasy writing, full stop
I don't read much fantasy--and honestly, I only started reading ASOIAF because my library had the Kindle edition and I didn't feel like getting out of bed--but I definitely think Storm of Swords was the most satisfying of the books, particularly the plotting. The first half was a bit leaden, though.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:05 PM on April 3, 2015
I don't read much fantasy--and honestly, I only started reading ASOIAF because my library had the Kindle edition and I didn't feel like getting out of bed--but I definitely think Storm of Swords was the most satisfying of the books, particularly the plotting. The first half was a bit leaden, though.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:05 PM on April 3, 2015
By the end of ADWD, I was bored of everything happening in the east except for Barristan Selmy, who is one of the best characters in the series.
However, I loved the drudgery of AFFC and the Westeros portions of ADWD, saybe I'm weird.
Jaime better get serious face time in the next book though or I'll be disappointed. His character arc is easily the richest and most satisfying. That is one ball I hope Martin doesn't drop.
posted by echocollate at 5:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
However, I loved the drudgery of AFFC and the Westeros portions of ADWD, saybe I'm weird.
Jaime better get serious face time in the next book though or I'll be disappointed. His character arc is easily the richest and most satisfying. That is one ball I hope Martin doesn't drop.
posted by echocollate at 5:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nnnno. Mostly. There are basically a shifting series of about five plots going on at any given time. Occasionally two will meld. There are peaks and valleys, not just one cliff after another.
Yeah, but I think the problem is less how many are being actively juggled at one time and more that plot lines will drop out of sight or apparently be resolved and then pop up 900 pages and 6 IRL years later and you're like "wait what was this about again?"
Also, for a series that has a reputation for killing off a lot of characters, very few of them actually seem to die (or stay dead)
posted by kagredon at 6:44 PM on April 3, 2015
Yeah, but I think the problem is less how many are being actively juggled at one time and more that plot lines will drop out of sight or apparently be resolved and then pop up 900 pages and 6 IRL years later and you're like "wait what was this about again?"
Also, for a series that has a reputation for killing off a lot of characters, very few of them actually seem to die (or stay dead)
posted by kagredon at 6:44 PM on April 3, 2015
Also, for a series that has a reputation for killing off a lot of characters, very few of them actually seem to die (or stay dead)
Syrio FTW!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
Syrio FTW!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
Allowed? What do you mean? Isn't this his fault?
True, I overstated it by saying "allowed," but Martin originally pitched his publisher a trilogy. His editor convinced him to expand it to five books and then seven. I guess now it's forecast for eight? So, yeah, Martin's writing them, but I blame the publisher for asking for the bloat. Then again, they're making truckloads of money, so who could blame them?
posted by gladly at 8:27 PM on April 3, 2015
True, I overstated it by saying "allowed," but Martin originally pitched his publisher a trilogy. His editor convinced him to expand it to five books and then seven. I guess now it's forecast for eight? So, yeah, Martin's writing them, but I blame the publisher for asking for the bloat. Then again, they're making truckloads of money, so who could blame them?
posted by gladly at 8:27 PM on April 3, 2015
From the Alayne chapter:
"Alas, all I have is a plump pair of teats."
Uggggghhhhhhhh, GRRM.
posted by lauranesson at 12:52 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Alas, all I have is a plump pair of teats."
Uggggghhhhhhhh, GRRM.
posted by lauranesson at 12:52 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
nicepersonality: "…Sixty-four dishes were served, in honor of the sixty-four competitors who had come so far to contest for silver wings before their lord. From the rivers and the lakes came pike and trout and salmon, from the seas crabs and cod and herring. Ducks there were, and capons, peacocks in their plumage and swans in almond milk. Suckling pigs were served up crackling with apples in their mouths, and three huge aurochs were roasted whole above firepits in the castle yard, since they were too big to get through the kitchen doors. Loaves of hot bread filled the trestle tables in Lord Nestor’s hall, and massive wheels of cheese were brought up from the vaults. The butter was fresh-churned, and there were leeks and carrots, roasted onions, beets, turnips, parsnips. And best of all, Lord Nestor’s cooks prepared a splendid subtlety, a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar.…"
Ok, this has to be GRRM taking the piss with a deliberate reference to Monty Python.
And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals...
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:01 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ok, this has to be GRRM taking the piss with a deliberate reference to Monty Python.
And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals...
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:01 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
and then they had a mint
it was wafffffer thin
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:37 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
it was wafffffer thin
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:37 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ok, this has to be GRRM taking the piss with a deliberate reference to Monty Python.
It would fit with the ASOIAF references to Sesame Street and the Marvel Universe.
posted by drezdn at 9:34 AM on April 4, 2015
It would fit with the ASOIAF references to Sesame Street and the Marvel Universe.
posted by drezdn at 9:34 AM on April 4, 2015
Ok, this has to be GRRM taking the piss with a deliberate reference to Monty Python.
I don't think so. George just loves writing about food.
For a Monty Python reference, see ADWD where Dany's Unsullied are described as the kind "that don’t break and run when you fart in their general direction.”
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:40 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think so. George just loves writing about food.
For a Monty Python reference, see ADWD where Dany's Unsullied are described as the kind "that don’t break and run when you fart in their general direction.”
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:40 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Okay, I need some advice. Should I watch Game of Thrones?
Hmmmm . . . tough call, given your criteria. (Binge-watched the show last fall myself and liked it a bunch (so far), but every time I've looked at the books in the library a little voice in my head just groans at the idea of taking on a Major Reading Project.)
Because I have a feeling that it's a long, long story without any discernible arc,
Oh it's long alright; really the entire show/series is one ginormous story, Lord of the Rings as opposed to, say, a detective series where any given season/book could stand alone. There are definitely season-long story arcs that reach AN ending, but they could in no way be mistaken for THE ending, if you see what I mean. The for-real no kidding absolute THE END ending is literally years away.
one of those shows that's just cliffhanger after cliffhanger that builds and builds with no real ending or closure
Well, since they're creating season-long & series-long story arcs, any given episode may or may not be particularly cliffhanger-y. HBO isn't really worried about having to tease you into tuning in next week to learn what happened to Character X, so they can make each episode about fitting in the necessary amount of story as needed to build the larger story. Each season tends to end with a bang and some big changes, so you don't quite move to the next season wondering what will happen as much as wonder, "Given that [X] happened, how will these characters deal with these major changes?" This may or may not be too cliffhanger-y for you.
and piles upon piles of subplots like Lost.
This might be your biggest hurdle - if you're looking for something that really focuses on one or two main characters, GoT is probably not for you. As fffm mentioned above, there aren't really even sub-plots, there are 5 or 6 different plots of more-or-less equal weight happening at once, and they will sometimes merge or intersect.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:44 PM on April 4, 2015
Hmmmm . . . tough call, given your criteria. (Binge-watched the show last fall myself and liked it a bunch (so far), but every time I've looked at the books in the library a little voice in my head just groans at the idea of taking on a Major Reading Project.)
Because I have a feeling that it's a long, long story without any discernible arc,
Oh it's long alright; really the entire show/series is one ginormous story, Lord of the Rings as opposed to, say, a detective series where any given season/book could stand alone. There are definitely season-long story arcs that reach AN ending, but they could in no way be mistaken for THE ending, if you see what I mean. The for-real no kidding absolute THE END ending is literally years away.
one of those shows that's just cliffhanger after cliffhanger that builds and builds with no real ending or closure
Well, since they're creating season-long & series-long story arcs, any given episode may or may not be particularly cliffhanger-y. HBO isn't really worried about having to tease you into tuning in next week to learn what happened to Character X, so they can make each episode about fitting in the necessary amount of story as needed to build the larger story. Each season tends to end with a bang and some big changes, so you don't quite move to the next season wondering what will happen as much as wonder, "Given that [X] happened, how will these characters deal with these major changes?" This may or may not be too cliffhanger-y for you.
and piles upon piles of subplots like Lost.
This might be your biggest hurdle - if you're looking for something that really focuses on one or two main characters, GoT is probably not for you. As fffm mentioned above, there aren't really even sub-plots, there are 5 or 6 different plots of more-or-less equal weight happening at once, and they will sometimes merge or intersect.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:44 PM on April 4, 2015
Maybe I'm reading a different trilogy-in-seven-books than most everyone else here?
Or maybe people are embarrassed to praise the series with great praise.
Oh well.
ASOIAF (the book series) is much better than its reputation, and @Ratio, you should read the books instead of watching the show.
-----
It's stupid to concentrate on Martin's sentences. (Or any writer's, really.) For the first three books, the series moves like lightning, and gives you plenty to think about, if you like.
Martin's characters are for the most part complex believable humans who reveal more and more depth as the story goes on (i.e., this isn't Lost, where each character consists of a remembered trauma and a headshot). His 'worldbuilding' -- evoking a 'living world' at the story's margins, which fools you into thinking it created the characters rather than being created to suit them -- is excellent. And his ability to catch and convey the scale of history, its contingency and complexity, is just astonishing.
Martin's managed a neat trick with this series: he gets that epic-scale, ten-thousand-year-dynasty feeling with his deep backstory (which folds in the Cthulhu Mythos, by the way), but the main plot movement of the first few volumes is, in a sense, the subtle aftershocks of Robert's Rebellion, which wrapped up ten(?) years before the series kicks off. The world's full of veterans and casualties of that rebellion (Ned, Barristan, Robert, Tywin, Catelyn, etc.), and their weary realism grounds the other story -- the one where their children get swept up in the millennial Cosmic Wizard War between dragons, ice zombies, elves, shapeshifting assassins, and wizard 18/cleric 15 high-level NPCs of every stripe.
Remember how the Star Wars prequels were complicated and dull, but beneath the wooden dialogue was an interesting broad-strokes story about the way one generation's ideology/idealism/zealotry ends up incurring horrible debts that their children have to pay? Remember how the 'Mistakes That Obi-Wan and Yoda Made' story was almost a heartbreaking epic?
ASOIAF tells a similar story, bathed in blood and realpolitik, and makes it work. And I think he's gonna stick the landing.
Like any overgrown epic fantasy (or RPG setting) you get several 'magic systems' and various religious sects, but here they somehow combine believably into a world full of just plain human beings -- Martin's world feels both vast and ridiculous and 'here be dragons'-y, on one hand, yet fully lived-in and all somehow connected.
To put it another way: I find the 'worldbuilding urge' (cf. M. John Harrison's quote) and detailed X-begat-Y backstory to be unbelievably tedious -- the influence of Tolkien's LotR appendices on the field of fantasy is pure poison -- but I tore through Martin's setting gazetteer/history (The World of Ice & Fire) with steadily mounting pleasure.
He has his fetishes, blind spots, limitations of vision. So do you. But he's telling a story that feels headspinningly huge and painfully intimate all at once, and (as has been pointed out) when he's confident of his plotting and ready to push forward, it goes like a freight train.
ALL THIS HAVING BEEN SAID...
Volumes 4 and 5 should be read as one interwoven ebook -- I recommend the 'All Leather Must Be Boiled' combined order, no spoilers. Combining them on paper will be a hassle, I assume. This is the only time I'll recommend an ebook over a print copy (I haven't read all of Infinite Jest, which probably gets the same recommendation).
v1-3 tell one coherent story at one scale.
v4-5 are an interregnum, in which the aftermath of v3 gets sorted through and the gazillions of characters sort of go on with their lives in a subtly different register from the preceding. Together they form one far-too-long book that's nonetheless doing a hell of a lot of narrative work (among other things, it fills in an ongoing Game of Thrones set on the 'eastern continent'). Parts of v4-5 are the most boring in the whole series so far.
v5 ends with one gut-punch after another, and by the end of the book we've spun back up to full speed. The various world-shaking events teed up in the first book start coming. And they are good. There's even a little stylistic experiment, a bit of showing off. (The last Daenerys chapter is rendered in a childlike hallucinatory style to match her weird situation -- it's nice to be reminded that when Martin doesn't need to do any infodumping, he can render his characters' inner lives with real dexterity.) He ends his books well.
I'd bet that v6 will do much to restore the somewhat tarnished reputation the book series has acquired since the v4-5 publication debacle.
-----
The show seems good; for TV fantasy it's extraordinary. But for me, much of the appeal of the books lies in the stories that Martin hints at, just beyond the present-time plot: intimations of alien visitors, subtle magic, secret lineages, conspiracies... His characters' decisions make emotional sense in the moment (he's a competent novelist), but they also resonate complexly with the history and cosmology he's building (he's a good one).
The show can only deal with so much of the world beyond the plot.
If that doesn't bother you, by all means watch it. Or just watch Deadwood, it's better than almost everything ever.
posted by waxbanks at 4:51 AM on April 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
Or maybe people are embarrassed to praise the series with great praise.
Oh well.
ASOIAF (the book series) is much better than its reputation, and @Ratio, you should read the books instead of watching the show.
-----
It's stupid to concentrate on Martin's sentences. (Or any writer's, really.) For the first three books, the series moves like lightning, and gives you plenty to think about, if you like.
Martin's characters are for the most part complex believable humans who reveal more and more depth as the story goes on (i.e., this isn't Lost, where each character consists of a remembered trauma and a headshot). His 'worldbuilding' -- evoking a 'living world' at the story's margins, which fools you into thinking it created the characters rather than being created to suit them -- is excellent. And his ability to catch and convey the scale of history, its contingency and complexity, is just astonishing.
Martin's managed a neat trick with this series: he gets that epic-scale, ten-thousand-year-dynasty feeling with his deep backstory (which folds in the Cthulhu Mythos, by the way), but the main plot movement of the first few volumes is, in a sense, the subtle aftershocks of Robert's Rebellion, which wrapped up ten(?) years before the series kicks off. The world's full of veterans and casualties of that rebellion (Ned, Barristan, Robert, Tywin, Catelyn, etc.), and their weary realism grounds the other story -- the one where their children get swept up in the millennial Cosmic Wizard War between dragons, ice zombies, elves, shapeshifting assassins, and wizard 18/cleric 15 high-level NPCs of every stripe.
Remember how the Star Wars prequels were complicated and dull, but beneath the wooden dialogue was an interesting broad-strokes story about the way one generation's ideology/idealism/zealotry ends up incurring horrible debts that their children have to pay? Remember how the 'Mistakes That Obi-Wan and Yoda Made' story was almost a heartbreaking epic?
ASOIAF tells a similar story, bathed in blood and realpolitik, and makes it work. And I think he's gonna stick the landing.
Like any overgrown epic fantasy (or RPG setting) you get several 'magic systems' and various religious sects, but here they somehow combine believably into a world full of just plain human beings -- Martin's world feels both vast and ridiculous and 'here be dragons'-y, on one hand, yet fully lived-in and all somehow connected.
To put it another way: I find the 'worldbuilding urge' (cf. M. John Harrison's quote) and detailed X-begat-Y backstory to be unbelievably tedious -- the influence of Tolkien's LotR appendices on the field of fantasy is pure poison -- but I tore through Martin's setting gazetteer/history (The World of Ice & Fire) with steadily mounting pleasure.
He has his fetishes, blind spots, limitations of vision. So do you. But he's telling a story that feels headspinningly huge and painfully intimate all at once, and (as has been pointed out) when he's confident of his plotting and ready to push forward, it goes like a freight train.
ALL THIS HAVING BEEN SAID...
Volumes 4 and 5 should be read as one interwoven ebook -- I recommend the 'All Leather Must Be Boiled' combined order, no spoilers. Combining them on paper will be a hassle, I assume. This is the only time I'll recommend an ebook over a print copy (I haven't read all of Infinite Jest, which probably gets the same recommendation).
v1-3 tell one coherent story at one scale.
v4-5 are an interregnum, in which the aftermath of v3 gets sorted through and the gazillions of characters sort of go on with their lives in a subtly different register from the preceding. Together they form one far-too-long book that's nonetheless doing a hell of a lot of narrative work (among other things, it fills in an ongoing Game of Thrones set on the 'eastern continent'). Parts of v4-5 are the most boring in the whole series so far.
v5 ends with one gut-punch after another, and by the end of the book we've spun back up to full speed. The various world-shaking events teed up in the first book start coming. And they are good. There's even a little stylistic experiment, a bit of showing off. (The last Daenerys chapter is rendered in a childlike hallucinatory style to match her weird situation -- it's nice to be reminded that when Martin doesn't need to do any infodumping, he can render his characters' inner lives with real dexterity.) He ends his books well.
I'd bet that v6 will do much to restore the somewhat tarnished reputation the book series has acquired since the v4-5 publication debacle.
-----
The show seems good; for TV fantasy it's extraordinary. But for me, much of the appeal of the books lies in the stories that Martin hints at, just beyond the present-time plot: intimations of alien visitors, subtle magic, secret lineages, conspiracies... His characters' decisions make emotional sense in the moment (he's a competent novelist), but they also resonate complexly with the history and cosmology he's building (he's a good one).
The show can only deal with so much of the world beyond the plot.
If that doesn't bother you, by all means watch it. Or just watch Deadwood, it's better than almost everything ever.
posted by waxbanks at 4:51 AM on April 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
waxbanks, I agree with your impassioned defense of ASOIAF when it's at its best. The problem is in every 1000 pages, it's only at its best for 300 of them. I'm willing to tolerate a 50% ratio of good-to-filler, but 30% is asking a lot of the reader. I agree that reading the fourth and fifth books together in the fan re-edit is a better experience, but to me that's just a sad sign of how the author and editors and publisher fuck that one up. Also if you consider that as one giant book it's clear how much could have been cut from it without harming the grand epic story at all.
I really hope GRRM has it in him to finish this grand story he's telling. That's not a dig at his age, either, I wish him a long and happy life. But it's a very hard thing he's trying to finish and he seems to be losing the battle. Trickled out chapters and fans memories of readings are not a book.
posted by Nelson at 7:15 AM on April 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
I really hope GRRM has it in him to finish this grand story he's telling. That's not a dig at his age, either, I wish him a long and happy life. But it's a very hard thing he's trying to finish and he seems to be losing the battle. Trickled out chapters and fans memories of readings are not a book.
posted by Nelson at 7:15 AM on April 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, the grand story will be finished. It'll just be finished by Benioff and Weiss rather than Martin.
posted by Justinian at 4:40 PM on April 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 4:40 PM on April 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
one week, people. one week.
posted by Justinian at 9:52 PM on April 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 9:52 PM on April 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
HBO NOW is live, so all you leeches no longer have an excuse to be leeches.
posted by Justinian at 3:29 PM on April 7, 2015
posted by Justinian at 3:29 PM on April 7, 2015
HBO NOW is live, so all you leeches no longer have an excuse to be leeches.
how dare you i seed all the time
posted by kagredon at 3:30 PM on April 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
how dare you i seed all the time
posted by kagredon at 3:30 PM on April 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
The premier of new Mad Men episodes is also when you start hearing the GoT theme playing faintly everywhere
posted by The Whelk at 3:35 PM on April 7, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 3:35 PM on April 7, 2015
Game of Thrones Creators Confirm the Show Will Spoil the Books
posted by homunculus at 4:19 PM on April 7, 2015
posted by homunculus at 4:19 PM on April 7, 2015
Eh, the books are doing a good job spoiling themselves at this point.
HAH. HAHAhah. cry.
posted by Justinian at 4:49 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
HAH. HAHAhah. cry.
posted by Justinian at 4:49 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty hardline in my hatred of spoilers, but I don't see how the shows can spoil the books. If I'm watching the start of season 3, and someone tells me what happens in episode 9, then sure, that's a spoiler. But if I already know what happens in episode 9 because I've read the books, then I'm not spoiled, it's just a different way of experiencing the same work. Same goes for watching the show before the equivalent part of the book.
In that sense things are probably turning out in the best possible way: if we want to know what happens in the end, we'll find out in a couple of years from the show (and we've probably read fan theories that correctly guess the ending, anyway). If we also want all the additional detail that's in the books, we'll get that too, eventually.
Then consider the plot divergences (Tyrion's story in SE05 is surely going to be different from his arc in ADWD, given the way we left him at the end of SE04; there are whole subplots seemingly missing, like the Greyjoys, Quentyn, Arianne). So in a lot of ways there are two stories now, and seeing how one plays out won't spoil the other one, because it will happen differently.
(And yes, less than a week now! Call the banners!).
posted by Pink Frost at 5:37 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
In that sense things are probably turning out in the best possible way: if we want to know what happens in the end, we'll find out in a couple of years from the show (and we've probably read fan theories that correctly guess the ending, anyway). If we also want all the additional detail that's in the books, we'll get that too, eventually.
Then consider the plot divergences (Tyrion's story in SE05 is surely going to be different from his arc in ADWD, given the way we left him at the end of SE04; there are whole subplots seemingly missing, like the Greyjoys, Quentyn, Arianne). So in a lot of ways there are two stories now, and seeing how one plays out won't spoil the other one, because it will happen differently.
(And yes, less than a week now! Call the banners!).
posted by Pink Frost at 5:37 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, note that GRRM doesn't have to deal with TV production budgets or anything when writing the books, which was one of the reasons he started writing them in the first place. His post a couple years ago about the "real" iron throne is a good example. That ridiculously over the top feast quoted earlier in the thread is another.
The general outline might be the same, but the details very likely won't be, and presumably the details are something that matters very, very much to book fans.
posted by sparkletone at 6:04 PM on April 7, 2015
The general outline might be the same, but the details very likely won't be, and presumably the details are something that matters very, very much to book fans.
posted by sparkletone at 6:04 PM on April 7, 2015
To get y'all in the right headspace for next season:
Seth Meyers brings Jon Snow to a dinner party.
posted by Justinian at 5:54 PM on April 8, 2015
Seth Meyers brings Jon Snow to a dinner party.
posted by Justinian at 5:54 PM on April 8, 2015
Key and Peele's valets on Khaleesis and Dinkels (all spoilers for aired HBO episodes)
posted by gladly at 6:16 PM on April 9, 2015
posted by gladly at 6:16 PM on April 9, 2015
That is the only catchup for the show anyone should need or want.
KILLED.
posted by sparkletone at 7:11 AM on April 10, 2015
KILLED.
posted by sparkletone at 7:11 AM on April 10, 2015
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posted by filthy light thief at 7:05 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]