They Were Our Sisters
April 3, 2015 7:41 AM Subscribe
Trans people of color are basically the lowest caste in American society. They can be, and often are, killed with total impunity.
We need to drastically change our entire society.
posted by Avenger at 8:03 AM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
We need to drastically change our entire society.
posted by Avenger at 8:03 AM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
The Wrong Way - "Miriam Carey's death certificate lists the manner of death as "homicide," but her family has yet to receive a full account of exactly what occurred."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:07 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:07 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
If police say it was a crossdressing man, the media doesn't think they have any reason to second guess that
Why are the police mentioning those details to begin with? If you come across a suspect who is presenting as a woman, that should be a hint that perhaps the person is a woman.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:12 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why are the police mentioning those details to begin with? If you come across a suspect who is presenting as a woman, that should be a hint that perhaps the person is a woman.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:12 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, if they think any information about a suspect is somehow relevant to the press they shouldn't state it as fact until they can verify it's fact. Nothing wrong with just saying, "Two individuals," otherwise.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:14 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 8:14 AM on April 3, 2015
Given the propensity of all of society (much less the police) to misgender trans individuals, I think assuming that descriptions of "cross dressing" are wrong is safer than assuming they're right.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:15 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:15 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
So on one hand, I think that the gender identity and race is a footnote -- you crash into NSA or the white house, odds are very high you are going to have a very bad day.
But then, I can't find a list of incidents, only intruders and only one in the modern era on that list was shot (in the knee). (There was a driverless car crashed for a diversion).
posted by k5.user at 8:19 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
But then, I can't find a list of incidents, only intruders and only one in the modern era on that list was shot (in the knee). (There was a driverless car crashed for a diversion).
posted by k5.user at 8:19 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
My initial thought on the reports was the cops and the media were playing the angle of "look at what attackers will do - they'll dress up as women to make the guards more hesitant to fire and increase the chances of success" E.g. "wiley terrorists" instead of the more banal story of sex and theft gone horrifically wrong.
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:41 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:41 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
This article is trying way too hard to find a social justice violation in an all-around-bad incident. For example, presenting the use of mug shots in news stories as an attempt at marginalizing and vilifying?
That's one theory. A much more likely reason is that mugshots are available, online and public domain. With a non-famous person who is now dead, it's not that easy to find verified photographs on short notice.
posted by msalt at 8:50 AM on April 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
That's one theory. A much more likely reason is that mugshots are available, online and public domain. With a non-famous person who is now dead, it's not that easy to find verified photographs on short notice.
posted by msalt at 8:50 AM on April 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
Well, but then there's stuff like this that makes you wonder:
Charged With Same Crime, Iowa Paper Shows Black Suspects’ Mug Shots While Whites Get Yearbook Photos
(yes I also winced at the misplaced modifying going on there)
posted by emjaybee at 9:00 AM on April 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
Charged With Same Crime, Iowa Paper Shows Black Suspects’ Mug Shots While Whites Get Yearbook Photos
(yes I also winced at the misplaced modifying going on there)
posted by emjaybee at 9:00 AM on April 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
A much more likely reason is that mugshots are available, online and public domain. With a non-famous person who is now dead, it's not that easy to find verified photographs on short notice.
That still doesn't make disrespecting someone's gender identity okay, just because it's easy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:28 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
That still doesn't make disrespecting someone's gender identity okay, just because it's easy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:28 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
> That's one theory. A much more likely reason is that mugshots are available, online and public domain. With a non-famous person who is now dead, it's not that easy to find verified photographs on short notice.
Why was it so urgent to include a photo with the story that an undated mug shot was deemed relevant? It's not as if there was a dangerous perp at large.
posted by desuetude at 10:04 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why was it so urgent to include a photo with the story that an undated mug shot was deemed relevant? It's not as if there was a dangerous perp at large.
posted by desuetude at 10:04 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
What next, a claim that "looting" is easier to type than "foraging"?
posted by nom de poop at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by nom de poop at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have been following this as it's gradually come to form a coherent story. It struck me as initially very weird that so many outlets reported it as "men dressed as women;" because that's an odd detail to focus on, and because US police will seemingly never acknowledge the existence of trans people, so you always have to wonder. It's been both frustrating and kind of a relief that, for the most part, everyone seems reluctant to talk about it.
This is a good piece, and covers most of the reasons why it's been simultaneously frustrating and relieving for me that the story has been so low profile. The eagerness of most journalists to misgender and misrepresent trans people, the need to craft narratives explaining "why" people of color were murdered by police for no reason, etc. which are all pretty distressing symptoms of a whole lot of underlying transphobia and racism. There's another thread briefly touched: that of requiring minorities to be perfect. In reporting shootings like this, there is typically an overemphasis on mental illness, or criminal history, something that ties up the needed narrative of explaining that this person was "one of the bad ones." This has effects for everyone in affected minorities, because it gets used to argue against basic rights and combating bigotry for everyone. Some trans people have worried that TERFs and transphobes will use the story to further a narrative that trans people are mentally unstable, violent, etc. That's not my primary concern, but a look at the reporting on this by "reasonable," "middle of the road" journalists should show how eager ordinary people are to believe transphobic and racist narratives.
It also ignores that a flight response to men with guns surrounding and threatening you isn't an illogical response, especially if there is a history of armed authority figures murdering people who look like you for no reason. We still don't know exactly what happened, and likely never will, but given the history of police and other "official" domestic violence, we should probably take the initial key narrative of Hall as aggressor with a grain of salt; especially since additional details make it seem like the whole thing was just a result of a wrong turn and tragically escalating miscommunication.
posted by byanyothername at 10:08 AM on April 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
This is a good piece, and covers most of the reasons why it's been simultaneously frustrating and relieving for me that the story has been so low profile. The eagerness of most journalists to misgender and misrepresent trans people, the need to craft narratives explaining "why" people of color were murdered by police for no reason, etc. which are all pretty distressing symptoms of a whole lot of underlying transphobia and racism. There's another thread briefly touched: that of requiring minorities to be perfect. In reporting shootings like this, there is typically an overemphasis on mental illness, or criminal history, something that ties up the needed narrative of explaining that this person was "one of the bad ones." This has effects for everyone in affected minorities, because it gets used to argue against basic rights and combating bigotry for everyone. Some trans people have worried that TERFs and transphobes will use the story to further a narrative that trans people are mentally unstable, violent, etc. That's not my primary concern, but a look at the reporting on this by "reasonable," "middle of the road" journalists should show how eager ordinary people are to believe transphobic and racist narratives.
It also ignores that a flight response to men with guns surrounding and threatening you isn't an illogical response, especially if there is a history of armed authority figures murdering people who look like you for no reason. We still don't know exactly what happened, and likely never will, but given the history of police and other "official" domestic violence, we should probably take the initial key narrative of Hall as aggressor with a grain of salt; especially since additional details make it seem like the whole thing was just a result of a wrong turn and tragically escalating miscommunication.
posted by byanyothername at 10:08 AM on April 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
Oh please. Car thieves crash into the NSA during botched getaway, there, is that better? It is gender and race neutral, just like the bullets were. If I crashed my car into the NSA gates and tried to drive away I would be a dead feminist. Try this: Stolen Flesh Rodeo Clown Car crashes into the NSA gates, clown killed trying to flee. No sympathy here from this feminist. These were not my sisters. My sisters work in human service, my sisters don't steal cars and take advantage of their "clients."
posted by Oyéah at 10:54 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 10:54 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Individual Marginalized by Society Killed While Wielding Two-Ton Death Machine
posted by exogenous at 11:02 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by exogenous at 11:02 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why was it so urgent to include a photo with the story that an undated mug shot was deemed relevant? It's not as if there was a dangerous perp at large.
Perhaps you missed the part where they engaged in illegal activity? A mugshot seems entirely appropriate.
I agree with the comment above which says that the article is looking rather too hard for the social justice angle. They were transgender, yes, but to assume that everyone is hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is, and are using mis-gendering as a pejorative... is caught in their own little bubble and is assuming way too much.
posted by smidgen at 11:04 AM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Perhaps you missed the part where they engaged in illegal activity? A mugshot seems entirely appropriate.
I agree with the comment above which says that the article is looking rather too hard for the social justice angle. They were transgender, yes, but to assume that everyone is hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is, and are using mis-gendering as a pejorative... is caught in their own little bubble and is assuming way too much.
posted by smidgen at 11:04 AM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Well, but then there's stuff like this that makes you wonder:
Charged With Same Crime, Iowa Paper Shows Black Suspects’ Mug Shots While Whites Get Yearbook Photos
Whilst I have no doubt that this kind of thing goes on and that there are huge inherent biases in the system, it appears there is an explanation in this particular case.
posted by ob at 11:16 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Charged With Same Crime, Iowa Paper Shows Black Suspects’ Mug Shots While Whites Get Yearbook Photos
Whilst I have no doubt that this kind of thing goes on and that there are huge inherent biases in the system, it appears there is an explanation in this particular case.
posted by ob at 11:16 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
It is also illustrative how many people here are clearly uncomfortable with anyone talking about their race and gender. And how the exact tropes I just described are getting evoked here. Yes, Hall and her companion were criminals. Carey was not. Yes, the majority of people are ignorant of trans issues. But there are appropriate, nuanced responses to that and hissy fits are probably indicative of something else.
posted by byanyothername at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by byanyothername at 11:24 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
What a weird attempt to paint Mya Hall as a martyr for feminism. She stole a car from a client, which had a gun and drugs in it, smashed it into a (very clearly marked and easily avoidable) restricted area, resulting in her death and the injuries of two others. That is a feminist act how?
I agree that the misgendering-in-the-press angle is an issue, but that's quite far afield from wanting to declare that someone that engaged in the above behavior is my sister.
(Perhaps if Hall had written some anti-NSA manifesto explaining her actions as an attack against the surveillance state, I might think differently, but I think that's quite unlikely here.)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:30 AM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
I agree that the misgendering-in-the-press angle is an issue, but that's quite far afield from wanting to declare that someone that engaged in the above behavior is my sister.
(Perhaps if Hall had written some anti-NSA manifesto explaining her actions as an attack against the surveillance state, I might think differently, but I think that's quite unlikely here.)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:30 AM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
(very clearly marked and easily avoidable)
To be fair, the NSA themselves said that people often mistake it for an actual offramp from the freeway.
posted by rhizome at 11:46 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
To be fair, the NSA themselves said that people often mistake it for an actual offramp from the freeway.
posted by rhizome at 11:46 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
It is an offramp from the freeway. But also one that is very clearly marked. Does this look like something you could misinterpret? (The only difference from how it usually looks is the "Road Closed" sign and barriers blocking it.)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:50 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:50 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please cool it a little on the argument-about-what-the-argument-is-really-about stuff.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, if you follow the offramp, it becomes increasingly obvious that you are entering a restricted facility. Here's the Google Maps street view of the offramp.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Guess what happens when you devalue and horribly marginalize trans women of color. They turn to sex work, drugs and theft. Then in turn when they end up dead we get to misgender them and point out how horrible they were in life because they lived desperate lives on the margins.
There are people in this very thread that I want to believe are more compassionate feminists than their comments betray them to be.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:35 PM on April 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
There are people in this very thread that I want to believe are more compassionate feminists than their comments betray them to be.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:35 PM on April 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
What they did isn't a feminist act. How they are treated is evidence of transphobia and racial discrimination. As feminists, we should note that they do not get the privilege a 19 year old white boy would get if found in a stolen vehicle at a security checkpoint.
They deserved to be detained and charged.
posted by politikitty at 12:37 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
They deserved to be detained and charged.
posted by politikitty at 12:37 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
"We should note that they do not get the privilege a 19 year old white boy would get if found in a stolen vehicle at a security checkpoint"
Genuine question, do you think a 19yr old white boy would have been treated differently? I would imagine he'd be pretty likely to get shot as well. Which is a bad thing too, but a slightly different bad thing which needs a slightly different approach to try to fix ("hey police, stop shooting everyone" instead of "hey police, stop being transphobic and racist").
(And that does not excuse the shitty misgendering, at all)
posted by tinkletown at 12:47 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Genuine question, do you think a 19yr old white boy would have been treated differently? I would imagine he'd be pretty likely to get shot as well. Which is a bad thing too, but a slightly different bad thing which needs a slightly different approach to try to fix ("hey police, stop shooting everyone" instead of "hey police, stop being transphobic and racist").
(And that does not excuse the shitty misgendering, at all)
posted by tinkletown at 12:47 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Genuine question, do you think a 19yr old white boy would have been treated differently?
Absolutely yes. Drastically reduced chance of being shot.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Absolutely yes. Drastically reduced chance of being shot.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
As feminists, we should note that they do not get the privilege a 19 year old white boy would get if found in a stolen vehicle at a security checkpoint.
This issue isn't being found at the security checkpoint in a stolen car, the issue is that the individuals in the vehicle "failed to obey an NSA police officer’s routine instructions for safely exiting the secure campus.” They could have turned around and gotten back on the BW Parkway but instead they struck a NSA police officer, rammed a security barrier, and struck a NSA police vehicle. If a 19 year old white man did that he'd be shot also.
posted by Rob Rockets at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
This issue isn't being found at the security checkpoint in a stolen car, the issue is that the individuals in the vehicle "failed to obey an NSA police officer’s routine instructions for safely exiting the secure campus.” They could have turned around and gotten back on the BW Parkway but instead they struck a NSA police officer, rammed a security barrier, and struck a NSA police vehicle. If a 19 year old white man did that he'd be shot also.
posted by Rob Rockets at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
8 White People Who Pointed Guns At Police Officers and Managed Not to Get Killed
posted by Drinky Die at 12:59 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 12:59 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, there are totally legit points to be made about how whites in the USA get convicted and shot less than blacks in police confrontations.
An incident involving someone ramming an NSA gate could still make those points, but it's going to fall on a lot more deaf ears. If a person attacks someone with a car who's legally sanctioned to use lethal forced, it's not too surprising if deaths occur.
We could argue back and forth about who's wrong and who's right, but this all just sounds like a mistake that was unfortunately escalated by Hall, resulting in her death and others being injured.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
An incident involving someone ramming an NSA gate could still make those points, but it's going to fall on a lot more deaf ears. If a person attacks someone with a car who's legally sanctioned to use lethal forced, it's not too surprising if deaths occur.
We could argue back and forth about who's wrong and who's right, but this all just sounds like a mistake that was unfortunately escalated by Hall, resulting in her death and others being injured.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
An incident involving trans women of color could still make those points, but it's going to fall on a lot more deaf ears.
posted by Corinth at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Corinth at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
But racial bias plays into that reaction, doesn't it?
I'm super white, and I've never had to fear authority. When I've been out after curfew, I've gotten pleasant rebukes. Every time I've been pulled over, I've gotten an apology for the interruption. I get asked to turn around, and while I might be scared and confused, I implicitly trust the system to do me right. So I do exactly what I'm told.
For minorities, it's exactly the opposite. Authority approaches the situation as an elevated threat, which tends to escalate the situation. Their relationship with authority leads to a flight or fight response.
And sure it was the seventies. But my dad brought a gun to the white house when he was a dumb dumb teenager. He was unhurt and peacefully escorted home by the secret service. (he had bought it without his parents permission, so he brought it on a field trip so the housekeeper wouldn't find it) The magical relationship white people have with authority cannot really be overstated.
posted by politikitty at 1:17 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm super white, and I've never had to fear authority. When I've been out after curfew, I've gotten pleasant rebukes. Every time I've been pulled over, I've gotten an apology for the interruption. I get asked to turn around, and while I might be scared and confused, I implicitly trust the system to do me right. So I do exactly what I'm told.
For minorities, it's exactly the opposite. Authority approaches the situation as an elevated threat, which tends to escalate the situation. Their relationship with authority leads to a flight or fight response.
And sure it was the seventies. But my dad brought a gun to the white house when he was a dumb dumb teenager. He was unhurt and peacefully escorted home by the secret service. (he had bought it without his parents permission, so he brought it on a field trip so the housekeeper wouldn't find it) The magical relationship white people have with authority cannot really be overstated.
posted by politikitty at 1:17 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Before or after they ignored routine instructions on how to turn around and leave safely and instead decided to accelerate forward through an NSA security vehicle and towards the gate.. which is when the shots were fired, not before.
You have to remember the NSA had no idea the car had been stolen, that there were drugs in the car, or anything like that. Hell, they may not have thought they were anything but two women who refused to stop; there is no evidence to believe that they thought they were trans/cross-dressers/whatever to begin with. What they did know is that two individuals were ignoring instructions to leave and seemed to be attempting to gain forceful unauthorized access to one of the most secure and strategically valuable assets of the intelligence community.
This is not a situation of shoot first and ask questions later... they had every opportunity to turn around and didn't.
Regarding the Miriam Carey story.. people also have to remember that what she did was not solely to just make a wrong turn. According to sources including the US Attorney's extensive investigation into the event, Ms Carey not only made a wrong turn but kept ignoring non-violent attempts to stop her, drove through at least one officer (possibly two or more), started a chase towards the Capitol at speeds of up to 80 miles an hour (DC speed limit is 25 MPH), through red lights and at times against traffic. When they got to the Capitol, they again tried to resolve it non-violently, and she backed into a police vehicle and officer, and that's when things went sour. She endangered MANY people, and it's kind of a miracle more people weren't hurt. She, too, was given a NUMBER of opportunities to surrender, and if she did so none of this would have happened.
The focusing on the criminal records and possible insanity is meant for context to figure out why people did these things, not trying to define them as "the bad ones." Wondering if Miriam Carey was having mental health issues I believe was meant to humanize her if anything, because otherwise what you have a woman just randomly disregarding the safety of many, many people. Which is better, I wonder?
Look, I'm a transwoman, and I was aghast at the misgendering. But I really find it hard to believe that it has any real bearing on how everything played out.
posted by BecauseIHadFiveDollars at 1:19 PM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
You have to remember the NSA had no idea the car had been stolen, that there were drugs in the car, or anything like that. Hell, they may not have thought they were anything but two women who refused to stop; there is no evidence to believe that they thought they were trans/cross-dressers/whatever to begin with. What they did know is that two individuals were ignoring instructions to leave and seemed to be attempting to gain forceful unauthorized access to one of the most secure and strategically valuable assets of the intelligence community.
This is not a situation of shoot first and ask questions later... they had every opportunity to turn around and didn't.
Regarding the Miriam Carey story.. people also have to remember that what she did was not solely to just make a wrong turn. According to sources including the US Attorney's extensive investigation into the event, Ms Carey not only made a wrong turn but kept ignoring non-violent attempts to stop her, drove through at least one officer (possibly two or more), started a chase towards the Capitol at speeds of up to 80 miles an hour (DC speed limit is 25 MPH), through red lights and at times against traffic. When they got to the Capitol, they again tried to resolve it non-violently, and she backed into a police vehicle and officer, and that's when things went sour. She endangered MANY people, and it's kind of a miracle more people weren't hurt. She, too, was given a NUMBER of opportunities to surrender, and if she did so none of this would have happened.
The focusing on the criminal records and possible insanity is meant for context to figure out why people did these things, not trying to define them as "the bad ones." Wondering if Miriam Carey was having mental health issues I believe was meant to humanize her if anything, because otherwise what you have a woman just randomly disregarding the safety of many, many people. Which is better, I wonder?
Look, I'm a transwoman, and I was aghast at the misgendering. But I really find it hard to believe that it has any real bearing on how everything played out.
posted by BecauseIHadFiveDollars at 1:19 PM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
For minorities, it's exactly the opposite.
Eh, not universally and I really wish people would stop putting it such black and white terms.
I say that having been turned around at that off ramp and at Fort Benning, where armed guards are the entrance and being a black guy. The guards are polite, but firm, presumably having dealt with lots of people who have wandered down the wrong road. They never pulled a gun on me or behaved hostile. But then again, I just turned the car around and left.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:26 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Eh, not universally and I really wish people would stop putting it such black and white terms.
I say that having been turned around at that off ramp and at Fort Benning, where armed guards are the entrance and being a black guy. The guards are polite, but firm, presumably having dealt with lots of people who have wandered down the wrong road. They never pulled a gun on me or behaved hostile. But then again, I just turned the car around and left.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:26 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
this was a tragedy. I think giving a frame of reference to this story that covers and shows light on the lives of trans women of color is a way to say "hey, there's more wrong with this picture than you think".
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:32 PM on April 3, 2015
You know this is the NSA right? Like one of the more secure places in the country? One of the few places where the fear of a car bomb attack is actually legitimate. A place that probably has snipers on standby if not on duty.
posted by aspo at 2:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by aspo at 2:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
What happened was a tragedy, but trying to compare this to a random police shooting seems misguided at best.
posted by aspo at 2:13 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by aspo at 2:13 PM on April 3, 2015
The point of most of those examples from my link is that even after the people with guns past the point of no return where a shooting would be legitimately justified, officers directly threatened by having a gun pointed at them, the police did not shoot. It's not an argument that the NSA shooting was not necessarily justified, just to point out that even in such situations where a shooting might be fully merited white people can still be granted an extraordinary amount of benefit of the doubt.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:18 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 2:18 PM on April 3, 2015
I think it's likely that virtually anybody would have been shot under these circumstances, white or not. But it says something about privilege that I can't be absolutely certain that is the case and that it's even a question.
posted by Justinian at 2:43 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 2:43 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
just to point out that even in such situations where a shooting might be fully merited white people can still be granted an extraordinary amount of benefit of the doubt.
I don't think anyone is arguing that. But just about none of those examples is applicable to either the Miriam Carey or the NSA events. In both of the cases, it seems the police actually did the right thing.
posted by BecauseIHadFiveDollars at 2:55 PM on April 3, 2015
I don't think anyone is arguing that. But just about none of those examples is applicable to either the Miriam Carey or the NSA events. In both of the cases, it seems the police actually did the right thing.
posted by BecauseIHadFiveDollars at 2:55 PM on April 3, 2015
A police officer shooting someone who threatens them and points a gun at them would also be regarded as the right thing most of the time. That's why I'm bringing them up and not situations like black men being shot while reaching for their wallet to show ID.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:02 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 3:02 PM on April 3, 2015
Well yes, but this was not a standoff, like about half of those were. There was no dialogue between them other than the officer routinely telling them to safely leave the area, and those instructions disregarded as they started accelerating towards the blocking NSA security vehicle and the gates beyond.
I'm really not sure what other options there were at that point other than letting the car continue on its way through the other car and the gate, and hoping the barrier stopped them, which may have resulted in more casualties; shooting at the tires of vehicles can be a lot more dangerous as well. Maybe hoping that while they were accelerating towards the blocking car it would suddenly stop and do an awesome Fast & Furious UTurn?
posted by BecauseIHadFiveDollars at 3:26 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm really not sure what other options there were at that point other than letting the car continue on its way through the other car and the gate, and hoping the barrier stopped them, which may have resulted in more casualties; shooting at the tires of vehicles can be a lot more dangerous as well. Maybe hoping that while they were accelerating towards the blocking car it would suddenly stop and do an awesome Fast & Furious UTurn?
posted by BecauseIHadFiveDollars at 3:26 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
On reflection I think I agree with that. If the concern is a car bomb (and it is actually for once a legitimate concern) you either have to shoot at a car accelerating towards your gate or you might as well not have security in the first place.
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 3:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
So basically by trying to point out the nuances of the situation leading up to this death and trying to provide perspective on yet another death of a trans woman of color, people in this thread are being told "yabbut this instance is different because (sex work/drugs/theft/failure to comply)". Please, understand this, in almost every instance of a trans woman of color being killed there is an extenuating circumstance that results is people explaining why we can't discuss the larger frame, right? When can we discuss this if not here, now? was the shooting warranted? I don't know. Is it another trans woman dead from a gunshot, yes. Is the posthumous portrayal and dismissal similar to the other TWoC that have died this year? Yes.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:09 PM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:09 PM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
Who is saying you can't discuss the larger context? Last time I checked Metafilter wasn't too sympathetic to the "silenced all my life!" posture.
The framing of the original article (that Hall and Carey were misinterpreted as terrorist threats because of anti-black or anti-trans prejudice) is pretty ridiculous. Both were endangering others' safety in particularly high-security areas. They were correctly identified as threats by virtue of their dangerous actions.
If you want everyone to come to the conclusion that TWoC are an oppressed class or have it relatively bad in our society (claims that I would venture nobody in this thread rejects, so it's a wonder why they need to be intoned so frequently), then picking events in which demographics have very little to do with the results (as BecauseIHadFiveDollars adroitly argues above) is probably not the most convincing manner in which to proceed.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:20 PM on April 3, 2015
The framing of the original article (that Hall and Carey were misinterpreted as terrorist threats because of anti-black or anti-trans prejudice) is pretty ridiculous. Both were endangering others' safety in particularly high-security areas. They were correctly identified as threats by virtue of their dangerous actions.
If you want everyone to come to the conclusion that TWoC are an oppressed class or have it relatively bad in our society (claims that I would venture nobody in this thread rejects, so it's a wonder why they need to be intoned so frequently), then picking events in which demographics have very little to do with the results (as BecauseIHadFiveDollars adroitly argues above) is probably not the most convincing manner in which to proceed.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:20 PM on April 3, 2015
Noisy Pink Bubbles: "If you want everyone to come to the conclusion that TWoC are an oppressed class or have it relatively bad in our society claims that I would venture nobody in this thread rejects, so it's a wonder why they need to be intoned so frequently"
Oyéah: "No sympathy here from this feminist. These were not my sisters."
smidgen: "They were transgender, yes, but to assume that everyone is hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is, and are using mis-gendering as a pejorative... is caught in their own little bubble and is assuming way too much."
Bwithh: "it's not a very outlandish idea that male cisgendered terrorists, even Islamic religious ones , would disguise themselves as women"
tinkletown: ""hey police, stop shooting everyone" instead of "hey police, stop being transphobic and racist""
👍 Great thread, MetaFilter! 👌
posted by Corinth at 6:44 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oyéah: "No sympathy here from this feminist. These were not my sisters."
smidgen: "They were transgender, yes, but to assume that everyone is hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is, and are using mis-gendering as a pejorative... is caught in their own little bubble and is assuming way too much."
Bwithh: "it's not a very outlandish idea that male cisgendered terrorists, even Islamic religious ones , would disguise themselves as women"
tinkletown: ""hey police, stop shooting everyone" instead of "hey police, stop being transphobic and racist""
👍 Great thread, MetaFilter! 👌
posted by Corinth at 6:44 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Are people being buttheads a bit? Yea, Is this a really tough case to discuss as part of the greater narrative? Yea.
This is pretty much the definition of an edge case. It's really hard to say "Yea but would a white guy have been shot for ramming a car in to the NSA?" with a straight face.
posted by emptythought at 9:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is pretty much the definition of an edge case. It's really hard to say "Yea but would a white guy have been shot for ramming a car in to the NSA?" with a straight face.
posted by emptythought at 9:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm a white guy and I've been given a ton of free passes in situations where other people might have faced much worse consequences. I understand intersectionality and privilege. But I very honestly believe that if I rammed the NSA gates, I would be shot. I also believe that we have given the security forces far too much latitude in using deadly force, but given the world that we have, ramming the gate is pretty much guaranteed to result in that outcome.
Whether or not there is adequate signage, and whether or not the guards used proper and effective measures to warn the drivers that they were entering a closed area is another question, of course.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:41 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Whether or not there is adequate signage, and whether or not the guards used proper and effective measures to warn the drivers that they were entering a closed area is another question, of course.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:41 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have some mixed feelings about some stuff in the link, but I do agree with the thesis that feminists should view this as part their struggle and stand behind these women, because to me, the issue is less about their choices in the moment, but how they got to that moment.
The way I see it is that we talk a lot about marginalization, which is good, yeah, but I think it becomes such a catchall byword that many of us begin to lose a real sense of what that really means, so I try to get a grasp on it by picturing it in a visually concrete way: Imagine young you as a tiny "x" on a clean, new sheet of blank paper, and that dizzying untouched space all around you is where you might expand – where you might travel, what you might learn, what you might achieve, what actions and recognition you might experience, what respect and honors you might receive, what wisdom you might gain, what quality of life you might receive and achieve, what kindness, care, nurturing and understanding you experience, how you might love and be loved – and then imagine that bright expanse of potential surrounding you being slowly trimmed away because of various factors, such as, briefly (and not in any order):
You are have a different skin color or ethnic or cultural background than the majority and/or the power elite; you are a woman; you are poor or from a lower socio-economic rung; you have a subpar education; you have experienced physical and/or emotional abuse, neglect, or trauma; you have mental or physical disabilities, serious illness, or any mental health problems at all (anxiety, depression, addiction, etc.); you are gay, bi, queer, transgender, or just non-normative in terms of gender; you have been convicted of crimes, imprisoned, etc.
Each of these factors (as well as others I've neglected to mention) blocks out a bit more of the page, one problem or prejudice begetting another, intertwining and compounding, and slashing away the space that you can reasonably realistically expect to inhabit... and the very fact that everything in your culture conspires to demonstrate to you over and over again that THESE SPACES ARE NOT FOR YOU inforces a poverty of expectation, hope and ambition that in itself zeroes out yet more area of potential.
I don't have her full bio, but as a low income (I assume), Black trans woman with a record, who likely suffered abuse, trauma and mental health issues, how big was Mya Hall's piece of paper on March 30, 2015? In her life leading up to that moment, what could her reasonable expectations be? Could she easily find legitimate employment sufficient to support herself? Receive quality health care? Pursue advanced education? Could she be treated with dignity and respect?
I think her bit of paper was very, very small indeed, maybe eventually a postage stamp of opportunity, care and support, which is what steered her toward that terrible moment, high and confused and terrified in a stolen vehicle, making all the wrong decisions, and paying with her life.
And it is all those marginalizing factors that intersectional feminists want to address and why the author and others would not choose to dismiss cases like these on their merits and say, "well, I support the *good ones*, but this person obviously made stupid choices, and I don't support that." Instead, they ask "how did they get there, what can be done to change that trajectory, and how can we promote that change?"
The problems are systemic and the only way to alter the system is from the ground up, because politicians, governments, media, and power-holders are not going to just suddenly decide to become more fair, equitable, caring and humane. In fact there is powerful and relentless opposition to any such notions, and recognizing Mya Hall rather than turning away because the decisions she made are hard to defend is part of a logical challenge to that power system, I think: one doesn't oppose these forces because, hey, well, actually, everybody pretty much starts on the same page with the same opportunities and support, and everything mostly turns out okay unless you make some bad decisions, but because everybody doesn't start on the same page, and everything does not turn out okay... not for a whole lot of people who aren't some combination that includes white, male, cisgender, affluent, healthy, educated, etc., and not for Mya Hall.
posted by taz at 5:09 AM on April 4, 2015 [21 favorites]
The way I see it is that we talk a lot about marginalization, which is good, yeah, but I think it becomes such a catchall byword that many of us begin to lose a real sense of what that really means, so I try to get a grasp on it by picturing it in a visually concrete way: Imagine young you as a tiny "x" on a clean, new sheet of blank paper, and that dizzying untouched space all around you is where you might expand – where you might travel, what you might learn, what you might achieve, what actions and recognition you might experience, what respect and honors you might receive, what wisdom you might gain, what quality of life you might receive and achieve, what kindness, care, nurturing and understanding you experience, how you might love and be loved – and then imagine that bright expanse of potential surrounding you being slowly trimmed away because of various factors, such as, briefly (and not in any order):
You are have a different skin color or ethnic or cultural background than the majority and/or the power elite; you are a woman; you are poor or from a lower socio-economic rung; you have a subpar education; you have experienced physical and/or emotional abuse, neglect, or trauma; you have mental or physical disabilities, serious illness, or any mental health problems at all (anxiety, depression, addiction, etc.); you are gay, bi, queer, transgender, or just non-normative in terms of gender; you have been convicted of crimes, imprisoned, etc.
Each of these factors (as well as others I've neglected to mention) blocks out a bit more of the page, one problem or prejudice begetting another, intertwining and compounding, and slashing away the space that you can reasonably realistically expect to inhabit... and the very fact that everything in your culture conspires to demonstrate to you over and over again that THESE SPACES ARE NOT FOR YOU inforces a poverty of expectation, hope and ambition that in itself zeroes out yet more area of potential.
I don't have her full bio, but as a low income (I assume), Black trans woman with a record, who likely suffered abuse, trauma and mental health issues, how big was Mya Hall's piece of paper on March 30, 2015? In her life leading up to that moment, what could her reasonable expectations be? Could she easily find legitimate employment sufficient to support herself? Receive quality health care? Pursue advanced education? Could she be treated with dignity and respect?
I think her bit of paper was very, very small indeed, maybe eventually a postage stamp of opportunity, care and support, which is what steered her toward that terrible moment, high and confused and terrified in a stolen vehicle, making all the wrong decisions, and paying with her life.
And it is all those marginalizing factors that intersectional feminists want to address and why the author and others would not choose to dismiss cases like these on their merits and say, "well, I support the *good ones*, but this person obviously made stupid choices, and I don't support that." Instead, they ask "how did they get there, what can be done to change that trajectory, and how can we promote that change?"
The problems are systemic and the only way to alter the system is from the ground up, because politicians, governments, media, and power-holders are not going to just suddenly decide to become more fair, equitable, caring and humane. In fact there is powerful and relentless opposition to any such notions, and recognizing Mya Hall rather than turning away because the decisions she made are hard to defend is part of a logical challenge to that power system, I think: one doesn't oppose these forces because, hey, well, actually, everybody pretty much starts on the same page with the same opportunities and support, and everything mostly turns out okay unless you make some bad decisions, but because everybody doesn't start on the same page, and everything does not turn out okay... not for a whole lot of people who aren't some combination that includes white, male, cisgender, affluent, healthy, educated, etc., and not for Mya Hall.
posted by taz at 5:09 AM on April 4, 2015 [21 favorites]
we really have few facts to go on here.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:22 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 5:22 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
taz, that's one one of the most incredible, insightful, and intelligent comments I have ever seen on this site. I don't have the vocabulary to describe how awesome it is. Thanks for posting it.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:28 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 5:28 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't have her full bio, but as a low income (I assume), Black transwoman with a record, who likely suffered abuse, trauma and mental health issues, how big was Mya Hall's piece of paper on March 30, 2015?
No doubt it was much smaller than average, but it was probably large enough to turn the car around, rather than crashing into gates of the NSA.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:05 AM on April 4, 2015
No doubt it was much smaller than average, but it was probably large enough to turn the car around, rather than crashing into gates of the NSA.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:05 AM on April 4, 2015
Taz gets what the article is trying to say. If you ever need a manifesto on "how to see the world as less of a petulant arrogant shit and more like a loving and compassionate human" you can refer to that comment.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:38 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:38 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, Taz gets and agrees with what the article is saying (there's no try about it). Others also get what the article is saying, they disagree on whether this incident is a good illustration of a marginalized person having no culpability in their actions.
That's a subtle but big difference. I'm not sure how people who fall on different sides of that divide can an amicably disagree on the internet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 AM on April 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
That's a subtle but big difference. I'm not sure how people who fall on different sides of that divide can an amicably disagree on the internet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 AM on April 4, 2015 [6 favorites]
No one is trying to eliminate culpability. What people are trying to say is "don't forget trans women of color in your fight for gender equality" which is the problem that needs to be discussed because trans women of color die in the ugly margins and in almost every case people say "see! If they didn't choose such awful lives they wouldn't die in such terrible circumstances" which happens all too often, has happened in this thread and it is a really painful thing for me to watch because even when someone tries to point it out...they are disregarded.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:46 AM on April 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:46 AM on April 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
You know this is the NSA right? Like one of the more secure places in the country? One of the few places where the fear of a car bomb attack is actually legitimate.
There is a not a long history of terrorist attacks of that kind on intelligence targets of this nature. There just isn't.
posted by Dysk at 4:18 AM on April 5, 2015
There is a not a long history of terrorist attacks of that kind on intelligence targets of this nature. There just isn't.
posted by Dysk at 4:18 AM on April 5, 2015
No, Taz gets and agrees with what the article is saying (there's no try about it). Others also get what the article is saying, they disagree on whether this incident is a good illustration of a marginalized person having no culpability in their actions.
Nobody is saying that marginalised people have no culpability, just that we need to also examine and consider the forces and structures that lead to these situations occurring. To read the linked article and the people expressing compassion for the women here as denying them any culpability baffles me to the point where I find it very hard to interpret it as good faith.
posted by Dysk at 4:21 AM on April 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
Nobody is saying that marginalised people have no culpability, just that we need to also examine and consider the forces and structures that lead to these situations occurring. To read the linked article and the people expressing compassion for the women here as denying them any culpability baffles me to the point where I find it very hard to interpret it as good faith.
posted by Dysk at 4:21 AM on April 5, 2015 [2 favorites]
To read the linked article and the people expressing compassion for the women here as denying them any culpability baffles me to the point where I find it very hard to interpret it as good faith.
That's totally understandable, there's a room for a lot of different ways to see the situation. Few would argue that Hall's life was a hard one and she got a lot unfair treatment that affected that way she viewed the world and the people in it. That background matters, no question.
As does the color of her skin. It's easy to imagine this exact situation taking place, but with a different ending if the Hall was white. It's also easy, at least for some, to imagine turning out the exact same if Hall was white. Plowing through the gate at highly restricted area will always be dangerous, no matter your background.
It's a tragedy, no question.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:26 AM on April 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's totally understandable, there's a room for a lot of different ways to see the situation. Few would argue that Hall's life was a hard one and she got a lot unfair treatment that affected that way she viewed the world and the people in it. That background matters, no question.
As does the color of her skin. It's easy to imagine this exact situation taking place, but with a different ending if the Hall was white. It's also easy, at least for some, to imagine turning out the exact same if Hall was white. Plowing through the gate at highly restricted area will always be dangerous, no matter your background.
It's a tragedy, no question.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:26 AM on April 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's also easy, at least for some, to imagine turning out the exact same if Hall was white. Plowing through the gate at highly restricted area will always be dangerous, no matter your background.
Plowing through a the gate at a highly restricted area would perhaps not be how it turned out at all had Hall been white. To look only at the absolute endgame here ignores an awful lot.
posted by Dysk at 5:48 AM on April 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Plowing through a the gate at a highly restricted area would perhaps not be how it turned out at all had Hall been white. To look only at the absolute endgame here ignores an awful lot.
posted by Dysk at 5:48 AM on April 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
> Perhaps you missed the part where they engaged in illegal activity? A mugshot seems entirely appropriate.
Why no, I did not miss that fact. I'm criticizing the tendency toward prejudicial reporting when marginalized people are involved in a crime. I'm questioning what running an undated mugshot as the only photo of Mya Hall actually contributed journalistically? What information did it add to the story? Cynically, I think it was included to satisfy some lurid curiosity about whether this "man in a woman's clothing" looked like a woman or not. But more broadly, it permits (encourages, really) the public to dismiss the subject of the story as merely "crime committed by someone with a record."
>They were transgender, yes, but to assume that everyone is hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is, and are using mis-gendering as a pejorative... is caught in their own little bubble and is assuming way too much.
"Everyone" is not assumed to be aware of the preferred terminology. However, the newspaper reporting the facts of the situation can reasonably be expected to understand how to use words. It's kinda their raison d'etre.
(And by the way, "hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is" sounds really dismissive and gross.)
posted by desuetude at 2:25 PM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Why no, I did not miss that fact. I'm criticizing the tendency toward prejudicial reporting when marginalized people are involved in a crime. I'm questioning what running an undated mugshot as the only photo of Mya Hall actually contributed journalistically? What information did it add to the story? Cynically, I think it was included to satisfy some lurid curiosity about whether this "man in a woman's clothing" looked like a woman or not. But more broadly, it permits (encourages, really) the public to dismiss the subject of the story as merely "crime committed by someone with a record."
>They were transgender, yes, but to assume that everyone is hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is, and are using mis-gendering as a pejorative... is caught in their own little bubble and is assuming way too much.
"Everyone" is not assumed to be aware of the preferred terminology. However, the newspaper reporting the facts of the situation can reasonably be expected to understand how to use words. It's kinda their raison d'etre.
(And by the way, "hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is" sounds really dismissive and gross.)
posted by desuetude at 2:25 PM on April 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
👍 Great thread, MetaFilter! 👌
Foolish... just foolish. Do you have any thoughts of your own?
To read the linked article and the people expressing compassion for the women here as denying them any culpability baffles me to the point where I find it very hard to interpret it as good faith.
It's easy to have *compassion* for them -- they had shit lives and one was killed -- they didn't kill anyone or attempt to kill anyone. However, the article in question and many of the comments were fairly clear that racism and paranoia were the true culprits. That is, they most certainly were attempting to remove some culpability.
Taz is explicitly talking about a postage stamp sized space to maneuver, where the bad decisions become much more likely. But I just don't buy it. A lot bad decisions had to happen to get to that postage stamp sized point, and to invent a hard-luck story (and it *is* an invention) for the protagonists in question feels like apologizing for bad behavior.
Saying "it's the system, man" is not that elucidating. While, in general, black trans prostitutes can be a systemic issue, these particular ones who stole a car and crashed into the NSA aren't that.
posted by smidgen at 2:32 PM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Foolish... just foolish. Do you have any thoughts of your own?
To read the linked article and the people expressing compassion for the women here as denying them any culpability baffles me to the point where I find it very hard to interpret it as good faith.
It's easy to have *compassion* for them -- they had shit lives and one was killed -- they didn't kill anyone or attempt to kill anyone. However, the article in question and many of the comments were fairly clear that racism and paranoia were the true culprits. That is, they most certainly were attempting to remove some culpability.
Taz is explicitly talking about a postage stamp sized space to maneuver, where the bad decisions become much more likely. But I just don't buy it. A lot bad decisions had to happen to get to that postage stamp sized point, and to invent a hard-luck story (and it *is* an invention) for the protagonists in question feels like apologizing for bad behavior.
Saying "it's the system, man" is not that elucidating. While, in general, black trans prostitutes can be a systemic issue, these particular ones who stole a car and crashed into the NSA aren't that.
posted by smidgen at 2:32 PM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm questioning what running an undated mugshot as the only photo of Mya Hall actually contributed journalistically?
Do you know anything about how a newspaper is run?
However, the newspaper reporting the facts of the situation can reasonably be expected to understand how to use words. It's kinda their raison d'etre.
Sigh... you are confusing your ideal with reality. Newspapers are not abstract concepts. They are run by people. They get things wrong all the fucking time.
(And by the way, "hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is" sounds really dismissive and gross.)
Well, you interpreted that correctly, I guess, but I don't care.
We've had rather intense discussions on this site.. and I've read intense discussions elsewhere online about the proper moniker to use -- it *has* shifted over a relatively short period of time, and I think it has been largely an online circle-jerk. I'm glad everyone has settled on "trans" so I have a word to use.. and don't have to worry about mis-assigning a gender at all or figuring out whether or not to include a space or a dash.
When I talk to people who aren't in the MeFi/tumblr demographic, they have no clue -- they go by the genitalia. This doesn't justify it remaining that way, and I will make corrections. But it is a reality that people do this with no conscious ill intent, and you have to adjust your model of the world to match.
posted by smidgen at 2:53 PM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Do you know anything about how a newspaper is run?
However, the newspaper reporting the facts of the situation can reasonably be expected to understand how to use words. It's kinda their raison d'etre.
Sigh... you are confusing your ideal with reality. Newspapers are not abstract concepts. They are run by people. They get things wrong all the fucking time.
(And by the way, "hip to whatever the terminology of the moment is" sounds really dismissive and gross.)
Well, you interpreted that correctly, I guess, but I don't care.
We've had rather intense discussions on this site.. and I've read intense discussions elsewhere online about the proper moniker to use -- it *has* shifted over a relatively short period of time, and I think it has been largely an online circle-jerk. I'm glad everyone has settled on "trans" so I have a word to use.. and don't have to worry about mis-assigning a gender at all or figuring out whether or not to include a space or a dash.
When I talk to people who aren't in the MeFi/tumblr demographic, they have no clue -- they go by the genitalia. This doesn't justify it remaining that way, and I will make corrections. But it is a reality that people do this with no conscious ill intent, and you have to adjust your model of the world to match.
posted by smidgen at 2:53 PM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
> Do you know anything about how a newspaper is run?
Yeah, but it would be getting into major derail territory to start sharing my thoughts on the financial mess that running a "paper of record" became thanks to decades of denial about a sustainable revenue model and technology.
Anyway, my point is that newspapers typically manage to find non-mugshot photographs and a little benefit of the doubt for people who are deemed "worthy" of the consideration. I'm not saying that newspapers are evil or made up of thoughtless hacks, I'm saying that there is room to be less complacent about bias.
posted by desuetude at 5:23 PM on April 6, 2015
Yeah, but it would be getting into major derail territory to start sharing my thoughts on the financial mess that running a "paper of record" became thanks to decades of denial about a sustainable revenue model and technology.
Anyway, my point is that newspapers typically manage to find non-mugshot photographs and a little benefit of the doubt for people who are deemed "worthy" of the consideration. I'm not saying that newspapers are evil or made up of thoughtless hacks, I'm saying that there is room to be less complacent about bias.
posted by desuetude at 5:23 PM on April 6, 2015
desuetude: That's not my experience. Mugshots are by far the most common source of photos for non-famous people in my experience, white or not. Especially if a key point in the story is the allegation that the person in question was allegedly committing a crime. Yearbook photos? Rare, and generally only in situations (such as a missing person or obituary ) where the family is presumably helping the reporter. How do you expect a reporter to get a copy of a yearbook on short notice for a dead person? Or even know what high school in what city they went to?
More recently, and for younger people, Facebook photos or other social media pictures have become common. But I'm not sure how wise this is, aside from verified Twitter accounts, since it's difficult for a reporter under time pressure to be sure the account really belongs to the person, or if a picture is correctly labeled. Mug shots have the great advantage of being officially verified.
posted by msalt at 9:29 PM on April 6, 2015
More recently, and for younger people, Facebook photos or other social media pictures have become common. But I'm not sure how wise this is, aside from verified Twitter accounts, since it's difficult for a reporter under time pressure to be sure the account really belongs to the person, or if a picture is correctly labeled. Mug shots have the great advantage of being officially verified.
posted by msalt at 9:29 PM on April 6, 2015
Well, you interpreted that correctly, I guess, but I don't care.
We've had rather intense discussions on this site.. and I've read intense discussions elsewhere online about the proper moniker to use -- it *has* shifted over a relatively short period of time, and I think it has been largely an online circle-jerk.
This is not what good faith looks like.
posted by Dysk at 5:23 AM on April 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
We've had rather intense discussions on this site.. and I've read intense discussions elsewhere online about the proper moniker to use -- it *has* shifted over a relatively short period of time, and I think it has been largely an online circle-jerk.
This is not what good faith looks like.
posted by Dysk at 5:23 AM on April 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
I honestly don't know how to engage with a thread when the bad faith gets this bad. There are maybe two people in-thread who don't agree that the wider context of Hall's life is relevant to the way she reacted in this situation and the outcome of that. There's a great deal of sneering and contempt for her, denial that racism and transphobia are issues that still exist or are worth fighting, and so on. If you reread my comment here, it's mostly focused on the way the media has reported on this story, because it's been like a checklist of transphobic and racist tropes. And stories like this get reported that way for a reason--because it works. Emphasizing criminality over humanity, sensationalizing and deliberately (all that fancy impenetrable terminology? Basic AP style, FFS) misrepresenting transness, these things work to reduce readers' empathy and reinforce preexisting biases. All you have to do is skim this thread to see how well it works.
And look at how upset people get at talking about the contexts of race and gender and class in this story (and any other about a trans woman of color). Some people think those contexts are important; you don't have to share that opinion, or understand exactly how. Why should that bother anyone? Why is it important to not talk about them? They're there. They're aspects of Hall's life that undoubtedly contributed to her eventually ending up where she did, reacting how she did. Ignoring them just falls right in line with reinforcing preexisting biases.
As for marginalized peoples' options in life being severely limited, and in such a way that they get more limited over time? Absolutely. I could cite plenty of examples from my own life, or the lives of people I've known. I could link to Injustice at Every Turn or other surveys and studies again. I don't really have the emotional energy to even know where to begin talking to people flatly denying something that is, for me, such a fundamental and basic fact of reality.
Obviously crashing into the NSA's gates was a Bad Idea, but there is a wider context to that day that led Hall there, and a wider context to her life that led her to that day. No one makes Bad Decisions in the way that some in this thread seem to believe; no one wakes up one morning and decides they're going to "go do crimes." You fall into sex work, drug abuse and stealing because the society you live in adamantly believes you are a literal piece of garbage to be discarded and not a human being. Then you inevitably die violently and society gets to continue dehumanizing you because, look, it was your own fault for being one of the Bad Ones anyway. It's not the first or last time this pattern's played out.
posted by byanyothername at 9:40 AM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
And look at how upset people get at talking about the contexts of race and gender and class in this story (and any other about a trans woman of color). Some people think those contexts are important; you don't have to share that opinion, or understand exactly how. Why should that bother anyone? Why is it important to not talk about them? They're there. They're aspects of Hall's life that undoubtedly contributed to her eventually ending up where she did, reacting how she did. Ignoring them just falls right in line with reinforcing preexisting biases.
As for marginalized peoples' options in life being severely limited, and in such a way that they get more limited over time? Absolutely. I could cite plenty of examples from my own life, or the lives of people I've known. I could link to Injustice at Every Turn or other surveys and studies again. I don't really have the emotional energy to even know where to begin talking to people flatly denying something that is, for me, such a fundamental and basic fact of reality.
Obviously crashing into the NSA's gates was a Bad Idea, but there is a wider context to that day that led Hall there, and a wider context to her life that led her to that day. No one makes Bad Decisions in the way that some in this thread seem to believe; no one wakes up one morning and decides they're going to "go do crimes." You fall into sex work, drug abuse and stealing because the society you live in adamantly believes you are a literal piece of garbage to be discarded and not a human being. Then you inevitably die violently and society gets to continue dehumanizing you because, look, it was your own fault for being one of the Bad Ones anyway. It's not the first or last time this pattern's played out.
posted by byanyothername at 9:40 AM on April 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
> That's not my experience. Mugshots are by far the most common source of photos for non-famous people in my experience, white or not. Especially if a key point in the story is the allegation that the person in question was allegedly committing a crime.
When a person has committed a crime and the newspaper story is about that crime, than sure, the mugshot is an easily-obtained photo with direct relevance. When a person has been killed in a confusing incident during which they were possibly breaking a law, I think it's a bit cheap to illustrate the story with an undated mugshot from an earlier, unrelated arrest. I know it's not a terribly uncommon practice. I still think it's unnecessarily prejudicial and carries a whiff of victim blaming.
We're kinda having a moment here in the US about standards for the use of lethal force by law enforcement, y'know? As byanyothername noted above (and I'll just quote them directly), reporting like this brings forth the problem of "requiring minorities to be perfect. In reporting shootings like this, there is typically an overemphasis on mental illness, or criminal history, something that ties up the needed narrative of explaining that this person was 'one of the bad ones.'"
I'm not saying that the use of force was unjustified, necessarily. I don't know that. I'm saying that it should be considered more objectively, with the dead given as much consideration by the newspaper as anyone without a prior arrest record.
posted by desuetude at 9:51 AM on April 7, 2015
When a person has committed a crime and the newspaper story is about that crime, than sure, the mugshot is an easily-obtained photo with direct relevance. When a person has been killed in a confusing incident during which they were possibly breaking a law, I think it's a bit cheap to illustrate the story with an undated mugshot from an earlier, unrelated arrest. I know it's not a terribly uncommon practice. I still think it's unnecessarily prejudicial and carries a whiff of victim blaming.
We're kinda having a moment here in the US about standards for the use of lethal force by law enforcement, y'know? As byanyothername noted above (and I'll just quote them directly), reporting like this brings forth the problem of "requiring minorities to be perfect. In reporting shootings like this, there is typically an overemphasis on mental illness, or criminal history, something that ties up the needed narrative of explaining that this person was 'one of the bad ones.'"
I'm not saying that the use of force was unjustified, necessarily. I don't know that. I'm saying that it should be considered more objectively, with the dead given as much consideration by the newspaper as anyone without a prior arrest record.
posted by desuetude at 9:51 AM on April 7, 2015
smidgen: "Foolish... just foolish. Do you have any thoughts of your own?"
I sure do, but this godforsaken conversation is not where I am or have been sharing them. This weekend a (white) trans friend of mine was walking to her car when she got rolled up on by FOUR police cars and cuffed, thrown in the back seat, and detained for "solicitation" because she "fit the description" of other people they had been arresting in the area recently. I've been on three hours worth of conference calls about stopping our Indiana-style discrimination bill that was filed on Friday. I do not have the time or the energy to engage in a thread that is already this backwards, basic, and mired in garbage.
Just go read taz's post again instead.
posted by Corinth at 11:15 AM on April 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
I sure do, but this godforsaken conversation is not where I am or have been sharing them. This weekend a (white) trans friend of mine was walking to her car when she got rolled up on by FOUR police cars and cuffed, thrown in the back seat, and detained for "solicitation" because she "fit the description" of other people they had been arresting in the area recently. I've been on three hours worth of conference calls about stopping our Indiana-style discrimination bill that was filed on Friday. I do not have the time or the energy to engage in a thread that is already this backwards, basic, and mired in garbage.
Just go read taz's post again instead.
posted by Corinth at 11:15 AM on April 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
desuetude:
When a person has been killed in a confusing incident during which they were possibly breaking a law, I think it's a bit cheap to illustrate the story with an undated mugshot from an earlier, unrelated arrest. I know it's not a terribly uncommon practice. I still think it's unnecessarily prejudicial and carries a whiff of victim blaming.
I don't mean to minimize in any way the realities of racism and transphobia. In this specific example, I honestly don't think it's a factor in the use of mug shots. It's not like more obvious racist illustrations such as the OJ Simpson picture that was darkened in photoshop. Linday Lohan and Mel Gibson get mugshots run all the time, and they're about as priviliged as one can get.
You can certainly argue that the press is guilty of pre-judging the guilt of people with priors, though I think they reflect the general public more than the press imposing that judgment. But more than anything, I think practicality rules. When a person is killed in a confusing incident, it is VERY important not to run a picture of the wrong person. Mugshots are one of the very few verified sources of photos. Also, they are almost always much more recent than something like a high school yearbook photo, and hence more accurate.
posted by msalt at 12:51 PM on April 7, 2015
When a person has been killed in a confusing incident during which they were possibly breaking a law, I think it's a bit cheap to illustrate the story with an undated mugshot from an earlier, unrelated arrest. I know it's not a terribly uncommon practice. I still think it's unnecessarily prejudicial and carries a whiff of victim blaming.
I don't mean to minimize in any way the realities of racism and transphobia. In this specific example, I honestly don't think it's a factor in the use of mug shots. It's not like more obvious racist illustrations such as the OJ Simpson picture that was darkened in photoshop. Linday Lohan and Mel Gibson get mugshots run all the time, and they're about as priviliged as one can get.
You can certainly argue that the press is guilty of pre-judging the guilt of people with priors, though I think they reflect the general public more than the press imposing that judgment. But more than anything, I think practicality rules. When a person is killed in a confusing incident, it is VERY important not to run a picture of the wrong person. Mugshots are one of the very few verified sources of photos. Also, they are almost always much more recent than something like a high school yearbook photo, and hence more accurate.
posted by msalt at 12:51 PM on April 7, 2015
I honestly don't know how to engage with a thread when the bad faith gets this bad.
Agreed, but from the "other side." Some people seem to this incident seen in a specific light and those who don't agree, even if they agree it's a tragedy that Hall was killed, are branded as "acting in bad faith" among other unsavory things.
It really does look it's impossible to come to much agreement when discussing what happened and why. Very discouraging.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:19 PM on April 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Agreed, but from the "other side." Some people seem to this incident seen in a specific light and those who don't agree, even if they agree it's a tragedy that Hall was killed, are branded as "acting in bad faith" among other unsavory things.
It really does look it's impossible to come to much agreement when discussing what happened and why. Very discouraging.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:19 PM on April 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
When they outright state they're being dismissive and call marginalised groups having opinions on how they want to be talked about a "circle jerk" they get branded as acting in bad faith. You're over-egging the pudding.
posted by Dysk at 11:31 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:31 PM on April 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One comment deleted. I'm going to ask that we drop the argument about "bad faith" now, or take it to Metatalk if it needs to go there.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:25 AM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:25 AM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread fucking sucks.
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:30 PM on April 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:30 PM on April 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
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