every time he said "you look beautiful," all I heard is "you look fat"
April 8, 2015 12:37 PM Subscribe
If I had still been at my heaviest weight, I never would have approached Brian. As a fat woman, I have been taught that there is an order of operations for love: First, you get thin; then, you can date who you want. Until you do the first thing, the second thing is impossible. So for many women who struggle with their weight, it becomes a fight not just for their health or well-being, but a struggle to just be worthy of the love so many people take for granted.The inimitable Kristin Chirico (previously) for BuzzFeed: My boyfriend loves fat women. As a fat woman myself, I'm still struggling with how I feel about it. [SLBF]
When I was 10, my dad ripped a box of Apple Jacks out of my hand while I was pouring myself a second bowl of cereal, and told me that I was “going to turn into a goddamn pumpkin.”Ugh. Just reading that turned me into a sort of emotional windshield wiper: Heartbreak, rage, heartbreak, rage...
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 12:55 PM on April 8, 2015 [31 favorites]
This piece is fantastic. I especially liked this bit:
One of the things I’ve come to understand is that, when you’re single, hating your body is more or less a victimless crime, if you don’t count yourself. When you get into a relationship, however, it becomes a constant referendum on the tastes and judgment of the person who loves you.
posted by likeatoaster at 1:04 PM on April 8, 2015 [74 favorites]
One of the things I’ve come to understand is that, when you’re single, hating your body is more or less a victimless crime, if you don’t count yourself. When you get into a relationship, however, it becomes a constant referendum on the tastes and judgment of the person who loves you.
posted by likeatoaster at 1:04 PM on April 8, 2015 [74 favorites]
I have a total crush on Kristen, and I started growing my hair out because I think her hair looks so wild and pretty in the One Size Fits All article.
I've incidentally lost a bit of weight this past year, despite being a horrible fatty who is addicted to Taco Bell and McDonalds, and I never know what to say when people try to compliment me on my weight loss. I thought I looked fine before, but I still say "Thank you!" or "Aw, that's nice of you to say" even though I'm not really feeling it.
posted by muddgirl at 1:06 PM on April 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've incidentally lost a bit of weight this past year, despite being a horrible fatty who is addicted to Taco Bell and McDonalds, and I never know what to say when people try to compliment me on my weight loss. I thought I looked fine before, but I still say "Thank you!" or "Aw, that's nice of you to say" even though I'm not really feeling it.
posted by muddgirl at 1:06 PM on April 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
Kristin Chirico is a very good writer, and she's also very funny (not in a self-deprecating "funny fat girl way") in several of Buzzfeed's videos and photo features where a whole bunch of Buzzfeed staffers do things like try on ridiculous "one size fits all" clothing. Indeed, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone make such expressive faces outside of one of those "a famous actor shows you what different emotions look like" bits in Vanity Fair.
posted by padraigin at 1:06 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by padraigin at 1:06 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a quite nice piece. It could be expanded into so many areas. The two that immediately spring to mind are age differences and--what to call it--the inverse of fat-shaming, inappropriate skinny glamorizing? My partner and I have a 19 year age gap, which on its own is an understandable curiosity but often tends to bring out the absolute worst in people (specifically, people who are apt to announce their opinions publicly). I also have Crohn's, so there have been times in my life when I've gotten unhealthily thin in a very short period, eliciting very unwelcome (but socially acceptable) coos of envy over how I can make the pounds just slip right off. But really, all areas of our lives are probably like this, and we probably offend people all the time by the assumptions we make.
"He is someone who has made it through this life, one that is inundated with social mores about what is OK and not OK in terms of physical attraction, and he is unmoved by any of it. How he handles this attraction is actually one of the most attractive things about him. He knows that his is not a popular opinion, and wastes no time caring about that fact."
And herein lies the solution: don't try to train us to suppress every potentially prejudicial thought through public shame, teach us how to rise above the concern for how our legitimate, consenting desires appear to the public.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:06 PM on April 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
"He is someone who has made it through this life, one that is inundated with social mores about what is OK and not OK in terms of physical attraction, and he is unmoved by any of it. How he handles this attraction is actually one of the most attractive things about him. He knows that his is not a popular opinion, and wastes no time caring about that fact."
And herein lies the solution: don't try to train us to suppress every potentially prejudicial thought through public shame, teach us how to rise above the concern for how our legitimate, consenting desires appear to the public.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:06 PM on April 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
"When I was 10, my dad ripped a box of Apple Jacks out of my hand while I was pouring myself a second bowl of cereal, and told me that I was “going to turn into a goddamn pumpkin.”
Ugh. Just reading that turned me into a sort of emotional windshield wiper: Heartbreak, rage, heartbreak, rage..."
Interesting. If my dad had said that to me I would've burst out laughing. I suppose it depends entirely on the insecurities of the child. I had more issues with my height growing up. So when I dated guys who thought short girls were cute. (obviously since they are dating me) all I heard was- You are short. Dad made comments about my huge ass at times, but they didn't bother me in the least. If he had made comments on my height it would've bothered me though.
posted by rancher at 1:12 PM on April 8, 2015
Ugh. Just reading that turned me into a sort of emotional windshield wiper: Heartbreak, rage, heartbreak, rage..."
Interesting. If my dad had said that to me I would've burst out laughing. I suppose it depends entirely on the insecurities of the child. I had more issues with my height growing up. So when I dated guys who thought short girls were cute. (obviously since they are dating me) all I heard was- You are short. Dad made comments about my huge ass at times, but they didn't bother me in the least. If he had made comments on my height it would've bothered me though.
posted by rancher at 1:12 PM on April 8, 2015
I guess I'm lucky that my parents focused all their parental anxiety on my spine (I have juvenile-onset scoliosis) and missed out on their comments on all the other ways I didn't fit the ideal.
My mom always hated her weight, no matter what that weight was. She dieted off and on my entire life. To me, she was the most beautiful woman in the world - heck, she still is.
posted by muddgirl at 1:27 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
My mom always hated her weight, no matter what that weight was. She dieted off and on my entire life. To me, she was the most beautiful woman in the world - heck, she still is.
posted by muddgirl at 1:27 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
This was well-written but hard to read. I'm not sure how to to draw the line between "type" and "fetish" when considering someone predominantly was attracted to people who had [x very specific physical characteristic]. I'm very wee and over the years I've (never-long-term) dated a few guys who have had a thing for tiny girls (and each of them was very tall. Why?!), so much so that every other ex-girlfriend was on the very wee side as well. That made me queasy, and female smallness doesn't have the same type of baggage in our culture as being overweight does. I felt like the next girl in a line, as though we were all interchangeable. I know attraction is weird and not really in one's control, but when people have a specific "type" like this, even if they do love their specifically-typed-people as people, it always throws me off. Though I'm actually not in line with what my current sir's "type" has been in the past, and that sometimes bothers me as well.
posted by millipede at 1:39 PM on April 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by millipede at 1:39 PM on April 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think we tend to attach far more importance to the idea of having a type than is really necessary. And some people, by means of being exceptionally "dateable", can manage to find a partner who is their "type" over and over again pretty easily, I've noticed, at least for a while. I've observed that "type" becomes less crucial when the idea of settling down starts to get real.
posted by padraigin at 1:45 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by padraigin at 1:45 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I generally fit in the stereotype millipede described above -- I'm tall and lanky and for some reason have a thing for petite girls. IDK why.
My last gf was not petite, knew I had that "type" preference, and was just a bit overweight. But she was awesome, and it didn't matter. She swept me off my feet.
But over time, for many reasons, her insecurities about my previous preference for a different body type wore at her until she flatly didn't believe me when I told her I thought she was beautiful.
I fought and fought, but for nothing. Trust disappeared, because her self-image didn't match what I was saying, and try as I did to build her up, she eventually began to tell herself, and me, that I was not being truthful. And that was it. It didn't matter what I actually felt. By the end, that conversation was the only one we ever had. Over and over again.
This is such a frustrating topic for me. I haven't dated anyone since, and I'm so terrified of having those conversations again that *that* is what I think about now when I see a girl who's overweight. Not her weight. Just that she wouldn't believe me, because I'm so skinny, if I told her I thought she was beautiful.
(I'm actually so skinny that I have a weight problem myself (and some body image issues even) in the opposite direction. You'd think that might be a common point of bonding.. but nope.)
posted by unknownmosquito at 1:52 PM on April 8, 2015 [37 favorites]
My last gf was not petite, knew I had that "type" preference, and was just a bit overweight. But she was awesome, and it didn't matter. She swept me off my feet.
But over time, for many reasons, her insecurities about my previous preference for a different body type wore at her until she flatly didn't believe me when I told her I thought she was beautiful.
I fought and fought, but for nothing. Trust disappeared, because her self-image didn't match what I was saying, and try as I did to build her up, she eventually began to tell herself, and me, that I was not being truthful. And that was it. It didn't matter what I actually felt. By the end, that conversation was the only one we ever had. Over and over again.
This is such a frustrating topic for me. I haven't dated anyone since, and I'm so terrified of having those conversations again that *that* is what I think about now when I see a girl who's overweight. Not her weight. Just that she wouldn't believe me, because I'm so skinny, if I told her I thought she was beautiful.
(I'm actually so skinny that I have a weight problem myself (and some body image issues even) in the opposite direction. You'd think that might be a common point of bonding.. but nope.)
posted by unknownmosquito at 1:52 PM on April 8, 2015 [37 favorites]
It sometimes makes me nauseated what parents will do to their kids with respect to body type. When I moved out to the Bay Area from NYC, I gained a lot of weight because, among other things, I switched from walking everywhere to driving everywhere, and a two-hour (sometimes each way) commute didn't leave a lot of time to go to the gym. When I came back home to visit, my mother took a look at my now 30-pounds heavier body and told me that I shouldn't come home again until I had lost weight. She wasn't kidding. I cried for the next two days or so, and I was 33. I can only imagine what that kind of thing does to a 10-year-old.
posted by holborne at 1:59 PM on April 8, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by holborne at 1:59 PM on April 8, 2015 [23 favorites]
Hrm, this is another time when I feel stupendously luck to be a hetero dude. I've been fat for a pretty steady clip of my life from age 8 to age 41. I'm now in the middle of losing 75 lbs and feeling good about it and it's funny how closely the two are tied together, even for a dude.
I first starting dating my wife when I was in a "skinny period". I've just been very fortunate that by society's rules I get to have value beyond whether or not I'm skinny. Doesn't matter how much it plays havoc with my mood and my confidence level to be fat, I still can be valued for other things which society isn't willing to grant women.
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
I first starting dating my wife when I was in a "skinny period". I've just been very fortunate that by society's rules I get to have value beyond whether or not I'm skinny. Doesn't matter how much it plays havoc with my mood and my confidence level to be fat, I still can be valued for other things which society isn't willing to grant women.
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
I fought and fought, but for nothing. Trust disappeared, because her self-image didn't match what I was saying, and try as I did to build her up, she eventually began to tell herself, and me, that I was not being truthful. And that was it. It didn't matter what I actually felt. By the end, that conversation was the only one we ever had. Over and over again.
I definitely recognize that melody and while it wasn't the exact same set of notes, to me there is nothing quite as frustrating as talking to an Iron Maiden with your significant other inside.
posted by 27kjmm at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
I definitely recognize that melody and while it wasn't the exact same set of notes, to me there is nothing quite as frustrating as talking to an Iron Maiden with your significant other inside.
posted by 27kjmm at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
millipede: "This was well-written but hard to read. I'm not sure how to to draw the line between "type" and "fetish" when considering someone predominantly was attracted to people who had [x very specific physical characteristic]. I'm very wee and over the years I've (never-long-term) dated a few guys who have had a thing for tiny girls (and each of them was very tall. Why?!), so much so that every other ex-girlfriend was on the very wee side as well. That made me queasy, and female smallness doesn't have the same type of baggage in our culture as being overweight does. I felt like the next girl in a line, as though we were all interchangeable. I know attraction is weird and not really in one's control, but when people have a specific "type" like this, even if they do love their specifically-typed-people as people, it always throws me off. Though I'm actually not in line with what my current sir's "type" has been in the past, and that sometimes bothers me as well."
I'm guilty of this, to an extent. I really like short, petite girls, but I've also had a fair number of tall (sometimes very, and/or curvy) girlfriends. I do think it in my case does tip into something of a fetish, also since I'm very tall, and the size difference is a turn on, but I definitely don't think of petite women as "interchangeable". A lot more than just the size is required for me to be interested.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2015
I'm guilty of this, to an extent. I really like short, petite girls, but I've also had a fair number of tall (sometimes very, and/or curvy) girlfriends. I do think it in my case does tip into something of a fetish, also since I'm very tall, and the size difference is a turn on, but I definitely don't think of petite women as "interchangeable". A lot more than just the size is required for me to be interested.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:07 PM on April 8, 2015
Oh, how different the attitudes have been at other times in history, when the attractive women were "fleshy" and "pleasingly plump" and "Rubenesque" and "curvy," to name some terms from more recent times.
One thing that makes me sad is the way we've successfully exported our single standard of beauty to the rest of the world. Miss Universe pageants and the like are hugely popular in what we sometimes call the developing world, and they always field candidates with the same body type as the first world. Once upon a time other human cultures on Earth had their own standards of beauty which were not necessarily ours. Good thing we fixed that along with everything else, eh?
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:23 PM on April 8, 2015
One thing that makes me sad is the way we've successfully exported our single standard of beauty to the rest of the world. Miss Universe pageants and the like are hugely popular in what we sometimes call the developing world, and they always field candidates with the same body type as the first world. Once upon a time other human cultures on Earth had their own standards of beauty which were not necessarily ours. Good thing we fixed that along with everything else, eh?
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:23 PM on April 8, 2015
This sure hit me hard. I get this so much it makes me feel ill. I only recently realized just how much I can relate when thinking about getting back into dating.
Long story short, marriage ended really bad, I gained a bunch of weight during the end and afterwards and only now after a couple of years am feeling together enough to even consider the idea of putting my toes into the dating waters.
The first thought that popped into my head when a friend suggested I try some dating sites was "Oh I'd be terrified to do that because I'm overweight." I didn't like that thought but it's a hard one to shake even though intellectually I know it's not right. The message that overweight doesn't mean beautiful has got it's claws in me and I'm finding it hard to shake. I totally get the thought process of not believing that someone can find 'fat' attractive unless they have some fetish.
I really, really, really hate thinking this way. I know it's not right but it's like I'm fighting a malware program in my underlying operating system that I didn't realize was there.
The stupid thing is I don't feel 'fat' and I have been losing weight. I've been happy with how I'm looking and feel more healthy then I have in a long time both mind and body. You would think that this would be good enough to override these sorts of thoughts but nope, so far they still rattling around in my brain.
I hate our culture at times.
posted by Jalliah at 2:32 PM on April 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
Long story short, marriage ended really bad, I gained a bunch of weight during the end and afterwards and only now after a couple of years am feeling together enough to even consider the idea of putting my toes into the dating waters.
The first thought that popped into my head when a friend suggested I try some dating sites was "Oh I'd be terrified to do that because I'm overweight." I didn't like that thought but it's a hard one to shake even though intellectually I know it's not right. The message that overweight doesn't mean beautiful has got it's claws in me and I'm finding it hard to shake. I totally get the thought process of not believing that someone can find 'fat' attractive unless they have some fetish.
I really, really, really hate thinking this way. I know it's not right but it's like I'm fighting a malware program in my underlying operating system that I didn't realize was there.
The stupid thing is I don't feel 'fat' and I have been losing weight. I've been happy with how I'm looking and feel more healthy then I have in a long time both mind and body. You would think that this would be good enough to override these sorts of thoughts but nope, so far they still rattling around in my brain.
I hate our culture at times.
posted by Jalliah at 2:32 PM on April 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
God I really identify with this. Even after getting down to a weight that I had previously thought was an unrealistic goal, I still think well maybe if I was just 10 lbs thinner I would be able to meet someone. I'm not overweight, but I'm not skinny or petite or little. And there is just that constant drum beat of maybe if I was just lost more weight that would change everything.
posted by whoaali at 2:34 PM on April 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by whoaali at 2:34 PM on April 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
This was well-written but hard to read. I'm not sure how to to draw the line between "type" and "fetish" when considering someone predominantly was attracted to people who had [x very specific physical characteristic].
This is exactly what I thought was so interesting about the article. On the one hand, how nice to find a partner who so adores your physical appearance. Alternatively, the author really articulated well the flip side of how hard it is on your self-esteem to know that what makes you attractive to your partner is specifically that his taste is non-mainstream.
Guys obviously don't have to deal with this nearly to the same degree as women, but I can definitely empathize with the author. I can imagine feeling really conflicted if a woman who specifically found toned, muscular guys unattractive decided she thought I was really hot.
posted by The Gooch at 2:46 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is exactly what I thought was so interesting about the article. On the one hand, how nice to find a partner who so adores your physical appearance. Alternatively, the author really articulated well the flip side of how hard it is on your self-esteem to know that what makes you attractive to your partner is specifically that his taste is non-mainstream.
Guys obviously don't have to deal with this nearly to the same degree as women, but I can definitely empathize with the author. I can imagine feeling really conflicted if a woman who specifically found toned, muscular guys unattractive decided she thought I was really hot.
posted by The Gooch at 2:46 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
My take on this is, a woman being a certain guy's "type" (or even non-fetish general attractiveness) is enough to give him the courage to make contact and the first few dates. After than, "type" doesn't matter if he learns enough about the woman's personality to realize she's not right for him.
posted by King Sky Prawn at 3:30 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by King Sky Prawn at 3:30 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
(I'm actually so skinny that I have a weight problem myself (and some body image issues even) in the opposite direction. You'd think that might be a common point of bonding.. but nope.)
The horrible thing is, being so skinny you have a weight problem and body image issues? Most women in our society will not ever be able to bond with you over that, because for women there's literally no amount of thinness that we're supposed to reject. We're supposed to AIM for being so thin people think we're dying. Shit, I've never even met you and I'm jealous of you. You're succeeding effortlessly (which, remember, above all, women are supposed to be effortlessly perfect) at a thing which many women have been told is basically the only thing that matters about us.
Intellectually, we may know that you're just stuck in the other half of a no-win binary trap that's designed to punish us all, but emotionally? It takes a herculean emotional effort for a woman who has struggled with and been punished for her weight all her life to empathize with someone who feels bad about being too thin without even trying.
It sucks, man. It really does, and I hate it and wish it weren't so. I wish I had more empathy for my effortlessly skinny boyfriend, and wish there wasn't a part of me that doesn't say, "ugh, WHY?" any time he compliments me or says he's attracted to me. And I wish your ex had had more empathy for you. And I wish we lived in the kind of society that would make that less of a ridiculously hard thing to do.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:33 PM on April 8, 2015 [43 favorites]
The horrible thing is, being so skinny you have a weight problem and body image issues? Most women in our society will not ever be able to bond with you over that, because for women there's literally no amount of thinness that we're supposed to reject. We're supposed to AIM for being so thin people think we're dying. Shit, I've never even met you and I'm jealous of you. You're succeeding effortlessly (which, remember, above all, women are supposed to be effortlessly perfect) at a thing which many women have been told is basically the only thing that matters about us.
Intellectually, we may know that you're just stuck in the other half of a no-win binary trap that's designed to punish us all, but emotionally? It takes a herculean emotional effort for a woman who has struggled with and been punished for her weight all her life to empathize with someone who feels bad about being too thin without even trying.
It sucks, man. It really does, and I hate it and wish it weren't so. I wish I had more empathy for my effortlessly skinny boyfriend, and wish there wasn't a part of me that doesn't say, "ugh, WHY?" any time he compliments me or says he's attracted to me. And I wish your ex had had more empathy for you. And I wish we lived in the kind of society that would make that less of a ridiculously hard thing to do.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:33 PM on April 8, 2015 [43 favorites]
Kristin Chirico has the best (or worst?) sturgeon face in showbiz. Writing. Thingie.
Me, I'm fat. My wife's fat. She's lost weight, even after our son was born. I've gotten fatter. She's beautiful. She tells me I'm handsome. Our baby is adorable. Our combined weights are the least of our worries.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 4:21 PM on April 8, 2015
Me, I'm fat. My wife's fat. She's lost weight, even after our son was born. I've gotten fatter. She's beautiful. She tells me I'm handsome. Our baby is adorable. Our combined weights are the least of our worries.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 4:21 PM on April 8, 2015
My mom always hated her weight, no matter what that weight was. She dieted off and on my entire life. To me, she was the most beautiful woman in the world - heck, she still is.
Yep. I learned to despise my body at a very early age just from listening to my mother's endless self-castigation. I doubt I will ever be comfortable with it, because I was so thoroughly trained from infancy that that's just not a possible thing for a woman to achieve.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:30 PM on April 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yep. I learned to despise my body at a very early age just from listening to my mother's endless self-castigation. I doubt I will ever be comfortable with it, because I was so thoroughly trained from infancy that that's just not a possible thing for a woman to achieve.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:30 PM on April 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Try to remember when people pop out of the woodwork to compliment you on weightloss that they definitely hate themselves too. They are either overweight too, and hate it, or live in fear of being what they think of as overweight, and are crying out with their silly skinny voices "Yes! We can control the universe! You and I are in command of our bodies and not vice versa! Join me and we shall never die!"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:39 PM on April 8, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:39 PM on April 8, 2015 [13 favorites]
unknown mosquito: (I'm actually so skinny that I have a weight problem myself (and some body image issues even) in the opposite direction. You'd think that might be a common point of bonding.. but nope.)
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese: The horrible thing is, being so skinny you have a weight problem and body image issues? Most women in our society will not ever be able to bond with you over that, because for women there's literally no amount of thinness that we're supposed to reject.
Intellectually, we may know that you're just stuck in the other half of a no-win binary trap that's designed to punish us all, but emotionally? It takes a herculean emotional effort for a woman who has struggled with and been punished for her weight all her life to empathize with someone who feels bad about being too thin without even trying.
Don't think about it as being too thin.
Being in the same boat as unknown mosquito for most of my life (look at my name here) my words would be too weak, too puny, insufficient, not manly.
I was 6-3, 145 pounds when I graduated from high school. When you're that thin and male, you don't want to go to the pool even though you like to swim, you shy away from team sports because you don't want to deal with the locker room comments, you fear any amount of intimacy because you're positive the other person is going to be repulsed.
Your self-loathing causes you to retract from life. That's where I hoped for a common point of bonding in past relationships. Not in the physical description but the emotional similarity.
posted by tallthinone at 4:57 PM on April 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese: The horrible thing is, being so skinny you have a weight problem and body image issues? Most women in our society will not ever be able to bond with you over that, because for women there's literally no amount of thinness that we're supposed to reject.
Intellectually, we may know that you're just stuck in the other half of a no-win binary trap that's designed to punish us all, but emotionally? It takes a herculean emotional effort for a woman who has struggled with and been punished for her weight all her life to empathize with someone who feels bad about being too thin without even trying.
Don't think about it as being too thin.
Being in the same boat as unknown mosquito for most of my life (look at my name here) my words would be too weak, too puny, insufficient, not manly.
I was 6-3, 145 pounds when I graduated from high school. When you're that thin and male, you don't want to go to the pool even though you like to swim, you shy away from team sports because you don't want to deal with the locker room comments, you fear any amount of intimacy because you're positive the other person is going to be repulsed.
Your self-loathing causes you to retract from life. That's where I hoped for a common point of bonding in past relationships. Not in the physical description but the emotional similarity.
posted by tallthinone at 4:57 PM on April 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
I wish I could get up to 145. That's my goal, and I'm 6'3" too ;_;
WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT
posted by unknownmosquito at 5:00 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT
posted by unknownmosquito at 5:00 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Try to remember when people pop out of the woodwork to compliment you on weightloss that they definitely hate themselves too.
In my experience the people who offer unasked-for comments on your weight are actually saying "the only thing I find noteworthy about you is your physical appearance and whether it's pleasing to me or not."
posted by headnsouth at 5:01 PM on April 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
In my experience the people who offer unasked-for comments on your weight are actually saying "the only thing I find noteworthy about you is your physical appearance and whether it's pleasing to me or not."
posted by headnsouth at 5:01 PM on April 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
my mother took a look at my now 30-pounds heavier body and told me that I shouldn't come home again until I had lost weight. She wasn't kidding. I cried for the next two days or so, and I was 33
Ugh, I've had to do the opposite: I finally had to give my mother an ultimatum that if she continued to criticize my weight I would not return home for any more visits. Luckily for the both of us, the ultimatum worked.
posted by TwoStride at 5:05 PM on April 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ugh, I've had to do the opposite: I finally had to give my mother an ultimatum that if she continued to criticize my weight I would not return home for any more visits. Luckily for the both of us, the ultimatum worked.
posted by TwoStride at 5:05 PM on April 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Your self-loathing causes you to retract from life. That's where I hoped for a common point of bonding in past relationships. Not in the physical description but the emotional similarity.
No, like I said, I get that. (Two halves of the same binary trap, remember?) I totally understand, intellectually, that both of us are suffering due to a structure of bullshit designed to make us suffer for reasons that are largely out of our control.
Emotionally, I've internalized 30 years of messaging that says fat is literally the only truly bad thing a person can be, the only unforgivable thing. It is just extremely hard for me to grok on a visceral level that being thin could be as bad as being fat. Certainly for a woman, it would never, ever be perceived as such. And while most of me believes it's possible for my boyfriend not to be disgusted by a girlfriend who wears the same waist measure in pants, a part of me doesn't and maybe never will. It would never occur to me to be disgusted by him because he's thin (same basic stats as tallthinone). Thin is the goal. Thin is the thing.
And so a real, deep empathy remains a bit outside my grasp. I know it, but I don't know it in my bones.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:25 PM on April 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
No, like I said, I get that. (Two halves of the same binary trap, remember?) I totally understand, intellectually, that both of us are suffering due to a structure of bullshit designed to make us suffer for reasons that are largely out of our control.
Emotionally, I've internalized 30 years of messaging that says fat is literally the only truly bad thing a person can be, the only unforgivable thing. It is just extremely hard for me to grok on a visceral level that being thin could be as bad as being fat. Certainly for a woman, it would never, ever be perceived as such. And while most of me believes it's possible for my boyfriend not to be disgusted by a girlfriend who wears the same waist measure in pants, a part of me doesn't and maybe never will. It would never occur to me to be disgusted by him because he's thin (same basic stats as tallthinone). Thin is the goal. Thin is the thing.
And so a real, deep empathy remains a bit outside my grasp. I know it, but I don't know it in my bones.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:25 PM on April 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
I finally had to give my mother an ultimatum that if she continued to criticize my weight I would not return home for any more visits.
Same here. I was at my lowest weight and most fit during a period when I was estranged from my parents. I don't think that was coincidental.
posted by GrammarMoses at 6:35 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Same here. I was at my lowest weight and most fit during a period when I was estranged from my parents. I don't think that was coincidental.
posted by GrammarMoses at 6:35 PM on April 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
A while back I was standing outside someplace in Brooklyn, waiting for the guy I was dating at the time. An older woman came up to me and said "You could be pretty if you lost some weight!" She seemed to think it was a compliment. I said something stupid like thank you, and when my guy finally turned up he seemed to have no idea at all why I found her statement hurtful.
posted by pemberkins at 7:22 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by pemberkins at 7:22 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
One of the things I’ve come to understand is that, when you’re single, hating your body is more or less a victimless crime, if you don’t count yourself. When you get into a relationship, however, it becomes a constant referendum on the tastes and judgment of the person who loves you.
Yes, yes, yes. And just as Chirico starts to translate her partner's compliments into ways of insulting herself, I used to use every single compliment as evidence of how much that person's opinions weren't to be trusted. Which is pretty insulting to them, and I acknowledged that without being able to stop myself from doing it. I was either calling them a liar or flat-out contradicting them. These days I'm single so I can just hate my body with impunity. :/
The thing about hating yourself is that it can also prime you for abusive relationships. You put up with things, because really, do you deserve any better? You're too fat for anyone to really love you. This probably sounds obvious - that if you victimise yourself, you make it easier for others to victimise you as well. But this was a bit of a lightbulb moment I had when reading this.
I hope she winds up writing more about how she earns love from herself, because I tell you, the best I've managed is feeling sorry for myself, and that's a trap too.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:41 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, yes, yes. And just as Chirico starts to translate her partner's compliments into ways of insulting herself, I used to use every single compliment as evidence of how much that person's opinions weren't to be trusted. Which is pretty insulting to them, and I acknowledged that without being able to stop myself from doing it. I was either calling them a liar or flat-out contradicting them. These days I'm single so I can just hate my body with impunity. :/
The thing about hating yourself is that it can also prime you for abusive relationships. You put up with things, because really, do you deserve any better? You're too fat for anyone to really love you. This probably sounds obvious - that if you victimise yourself, you make it easier for others to victimise you as well. But this was a bit of a lightbulb moment I had when reading this.
I hope she winds up writing more about how she earns love from herself, because I tell you, the best I've managed is feeling sorry for myself, and that's a trap too.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:41 PM on April 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can I just recommend to everyone trying to take a break from your "type" while dating? I've done it, and it's been one of the best decisions I made. Broke a lot of bad decision habits. Got me interested in different kinds of people, for different reasons. Made it easier to see what was actually important to me.
posted by gusandrews at 9:02 PM on April 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by gusandrews at 9:02 PM on April 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a really well-written article. I can't directly relate, because her issues are not my issues, but her writing was vivid and I was able to understand her thinking. It ended on a much happier and hopeful note, and I wish her all the happiness. She deserves it.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:21 PM on April 8, 2015
posted by Dip Flash at 9:21 PM on April 8, 2015
That article is incredibly poignant. I was alternately enraged (at her parents), sad (for what she was going through), and hopeful (that she had so much self-awareness and someone who loves her). She put into words something that might operate just below my own awareness. For whatever it's worth, I think the author is beautiful. I hope she fires her therapist and finds one who is not sizeist.
posted by salvia at 10:06 PM on April 8, 2015
posted by salvia at 10:06 PM on April 8, 2015
I felt like the next girl in a line, as though we were all interchangeable. I know attraction is weird and not really in one's control, but when people have a specific "type" like this, even if they do love their specifically-typed-people as people, it always throws me off.
And see, that's the thing, i don't really buy it most of the time when it comes to people who don't just have a type, they're pretty much only attracted to that type of person. I don't see how it's different than guys who only want to date asian girls, or something along those lines that everyone agrees is bad.
It's pretty blatantly fetishization when it gets to the point discussed in this article, the problem is pretty much "how do i accept that i was a fetish object for my now-partner for some period of time, and to some extent will continue to be indefinitely?"
Now to be clear, i'm not in any way talking about people who are also attracted to larger people, just about people who are primarily or pretty much only interested in larger partners. Doubly so when they themselves are skinny.
I think a lot of the gross fetishization that happens here gets waved through the tollbooth under the guise of being open minded/progressive/adipositive. I get, and agree with, the whole "you're attracted to what you're attracted to" but i think this one gets analyzed a lot less as an actual negative fetishy thing. I've definitely seen guys approach it as gross of a sex-objecty way as many other "types" though.
posted by emptythought at 3:34 AM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
And see, that's the thing, i don't really buy it most of the time when it comes to people who don't just have a type, they're pretty much only attracted to that type of person. I don't see how it's different than guys who only want to date asian girls, or something along those lines that everyone agrees is bad.
It's pretty blatantly fetishization when it gets to the point discussed in this article, the problem is pretty much "how do i accept that i was a fetish object for my now-partner for some period of time, and to some extent will continue to be indefinitely?"
Now to be clear, i'm not in any way talking about people who are also attracted to larger people, just about people who are primarily or pretty much only interested in larger partners. Doubly so when they themselves are skinny.
I think a lot of the gross fetishization that happens here gets waved through the tollbooth under the guise of being open minded/progressive/adipositive. I get, and agree with, the whole "you're attracted to what you're attracted to" but i think this one gets analyzed a lot less as an actual negative fetishy thing. I've definitely seen guys approach it as gross of a sex-objecty way as many other "types" though.
posted by emptythought at 3:34 AM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
The article also mentions that he said early on that she WASN'T (at the time they met) what he would ordinarily consider his "type." He was interested in her regardless.
There's refusal to even consider anyone who doesn't meet certain criteria (sort of creepy!) and then there's simply having preferences (literally so normal that it would be super weird not to!)
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:35 AM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's refusal to even consider anyone who doesn't meet certain criteria (sort of creepy!) and then there's simply having preferences (literally so normal that it would be super weird not to!)
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:35 AM on April 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Being Chinese-American always drove home just how cultural body standards are. Because, by like Chinese standards, I've always been big. When I went shopping in Hong Kong in my 20's, I'd always have to ask for the biggest size in the store, and my (generally loving) Chinese mother's standard intro for me to other Chinese people was "this is my fat daughter," and the polite response would always be, "Oh, but she carries it well! She doesn't have a fat face!"
During most of this time, I was a 4 in US sizes, maybe 6 if it was fitted in the hips.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:57 AM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
During most of this time, I was a 4 in US sizes, maybe 6 if it was fitted in the hips.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:57 AM on April 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
Emotionally, I've internalized 30 years of messaging that says fat is literally the only truly bad thing a person can be, the only unforgivable thing. It is just extremely hard for me to grok on a visceral level that being thin could be as bad as being fat. Certainly for a woman, it would never, ever be perceived as such. And while most of me believes it's possible for my boyfriend not to be disgusted by a girlfriend who wears the same waist measure in pants, a part of me doesn't and maybe never will. It would never occur to me to be disgusted by him because he's thin (same basic stats as tallthinone). Thin is the goal. Thin is the thing.
For me, it's similiar to "What about the men?" and "Why don't we have a WHITE History Month?" Thin is a more-respected, and yes, I'll say it, more-priveleged class. That doesn't mean that literally every single thin person has it better off than every single non-thin person, just like literally every single white male isn't better off in every single conceivable way than every person of a different sex or race, but it doesn;t mean they're on the same level playing field, either.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:22 AM on April 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
For me, it's similiar to "What about the men?" and "Why don't we have a WHITE History Month?" Thin is a more-respected, and yes, I'll say it, more-priveleged class. That doesn't mean that literally every single thin person has it better off than every single non-thin person, just like literally every single white male isn't better off in every single conceivable way than every person of a different sex or race, but it doesn;t mean they're on the same level playing field, either.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:22 AM on April 9, 2015 [12 favorites]
And just as Chirico starts to translate her partner's compliments into ways of insulting herself, I used to use every single compliment as evidence of how much that person's opinions weren't to be trusted.
Oh, God, so much this. It’s like the old Groucho Marx line, "Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member." I've driven more people away because of that kind of thinking than I care to count, without even realizing it at the time.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:28 AM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, God, so much this. It’s like the old Groucho Marx line, "Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member." I've driven more people away because of that kind of thinking than I care to count, without even realizing it at the time.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:28 AM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Aw, man. It stings to read this.
Even though I am no longer overweight (not even close, even by bullshit BMI calculations), I almost resent that people can be attracted to my body when I'm not 'in shape' enough for whatever my current standards are. I almost feel like because they're endorsing my current body shape, their standards aren't high enough and that turns me off/makes me feel some strange way that I have trouble describing.
I've turned my whole life into a competition with myself to look perfect, to be acceptable to myself, and it's just never ever enough.
posted by rachaelfaith at 7:55 AM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Even though I am no longer overweight (not even close, even by bullshit BMI calculations), I almost resent that people can be attracted to my body when I'm not 'in shape' enough for whatever my current standards are. I almost feel like because they're endorsing my current body shape, their standards aren't high enough and that turns me off/makes me feel some strange way that I have trouble describing.
I've turned my whole life into a competition with myself to look perfect, to be acceptable to myself, and it's just never ever enough.
posted by rachaelfaith at 7:55 AM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
And so a real, deep empathy remains a bit outside my grasp. I know it, but I don't know it in my bones.
Man, I grok this. So many Internet hugs to you We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese.
I'm sure the intellectual empathy is still appreciated.
posted by unknownmosquito at 7:57 AM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Man, I grok this. So many Internet hugs to you We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese.
I'm sure the intellectual empathy is still appreciated.
posted by unknownmosquito at 7:57 AM on April 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wrote a whole thing responding to the "what about the mens" criticism, but actually the comparison to race made me think it really it just comes down to this: I would trade bodies with my skinny, tall boyfriend in one hot second. He would never, EVER trade bodies with me, no matter how much he complains about not putting on enough weight or muscle. On that level, we both sort of tacitly acknowledge that in the world at large, his body is more "desirable" than mine. And knowing that on some level, we both know this, it is hard for my heart not to sink a little when he happens to accidentally touch my stomach.
Even though I know that he, individually, is not "the world at large" and he knows the same about me. Even though I know that "the world at large" is fucked and full of assholes. Even though I know that his locker room experiences probably sucked about the same amount as mine.
All I'm saying really is, I know what your ex was dealing with, and I'm sorry it was not something she could triumph over at the time, and I hope you have better luck in future.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:50 AM on April 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Even though I know that he, individually, is not "the world at large" and he knows the same about me. Even though I know that "the world at large" is fucked and full of assholes. Even though I know that his locker room experiences probably sucked about the same amount as mine.
All I'm saying really is, I know what your ex was dealing with, and I'm sorry it was not something she could triumph over at the time, and I hope you have better luck in future.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:50 AM on April 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
For me, it's similiar to "What about the men?" and "Why don't we have a WHITE History Month?" Thin is a more-respected, and yes, I'll say it, more-priveleged class. That doesn't mean that literally every single thin person has it better off than every single non-thin person, just like literally every single white male isn't better off in every single conceivable way than every person of a different sex or race, but it doesn;t mean they're on the same level playing field, either.
It's nothing like that, at least in the context of this conversation.
As a tall, straight, white male who comes from a solid socio-economic background and has a college degree, I recognize my advantages at a societal level. I don't expect empathy along my generalities.
Personal, one-to-one relationships should cut deeper than census data though. I felt, at the time, that I was able to take a large step toward that person and what she was feeling/going through/struggling with because, while not exactly the same, the issue of not having a body that conforms to expectations for my gender was very real to me. That the step wasn't reciprocated -- and often dismissed entirely -- was frustrating.
To use an analogy from above, I would imagine that a woman whose mother rides her about her weight might feel some connection with a friend whose mother rides her about not being married. Why their mothers make them feel inadequate isn't as important as the feeling of being inadequate in the eyes of a parent. And the two issues don't have to be on the same level for the support to flow both ways.
posted by tallthinone at 10:15 AM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's nothing like that, at least in the context of this conversation.
As a tall, straight, white male who comes from a solid socio-economic background and has a college degree, I recognize my advantages at a societal level. I don't expect empathy along my generalities.
Personal, one-to-one relationships should cut deeper than census data though. I felt, at the time, that I was able to take a large step toward that person and what she was feeling/going through/struggling with because, while not exactly the same, the issue of not having a body that conforms to expectations for my gender was very real to me. That the step wasn't reciprocated -- and often dismissed entirely -- was frustrating.
To use an analogy from above, I would imagine that a woman whose mother rides her about her weight might feel some connection with a friend whose mother rides her about not being married. Why their mothers make them feel inadequate isn't as important as the feeling of being inadequate in the eyes of a parent. And the two issues don't have to be on the same level for the support to flow both ways.
posted by tallthinone at 10:15 AM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Things that have personally happened to me becuase I was female and overweight:
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:14 AM on April 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
- Being stabbed, hit or shoved to the ground for fun, "to see if she can feel it through all that fat."
- Death threats and vehement statements that I should commit suicide.
- Street harrassment of many varieties, with language so vile I don't want to repeat it in print. The most common is loud retching noises.
- Being regularly referred to as "it" instead of "she."
- Being refused medical treatment for issues unrelated to weight.
- All of the above, plus:
- Being required to weigh in every week at work -at office jobs - or risk being fired (N.B. There are laws against this now, so it can't happen openly anymore like it did to the older women I know, but if it takes a law to make it stop happening, you know the people who were doing it before have replaced it with subtler forms of harrassment that fill the same bigoted meed in them)
- Domestic abuse.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:14 AM on April 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
You know, for an advertising campaign, this one seems remarkably perceptive about the struggle so many women feel to realize how beautiful they are. I actually really like the proposed Twitter tag at the end as well.
posted by bearwife at 1:20 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bearwife at 1:20 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had difficulty with the concept inherent to that campaign that, in order to be beautiful, you had to be exceptional.
posted by whittaker at 1:40 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by whittaker at 1:40 PM on April 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
She quotes her boyfriend as saying "I'm just a fat person now" after he gains a little weight. 'm having a problem with that, and her response, in a way I can't articulate.
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 9:11 PM on April 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Belle O'Cosity at 9:11 PM on April 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
"I learned it from watching YOU, all right?"
posted by DoctorFedora at 12:10 AM on April 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 12:10 AM on April 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
pemberkins: "A while back I was standing outside someplace in Brooklyn, waiting for the guy I was dating at the time. An older woman came up to me and said "You could be pretty if you lost some weight!" She seemed to think it was a compliment. I said something stupid like thank you, and when my guy finally turned up he seemed to have no idea at all why I found her statement hurtful."
You could be pretty if...
Believe you me, I have been involved with many people over my life that were not traditionally "pretty" or "attractive" but I dug them, so I ran with it. I figure that is they way it is supposed to work.
posted by Samizdata at 10:31 AM on April 10, 2015
You could be pretty if...
Believe you me, I have been involved with many people over my life that were not traditionally "pretty" or "attractive" but I dug them, so I ran with it. I figure that is they way it is supposed to work.
posted by Samizdata at 10:31 AM on April 10, 2015
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
1. The confusion of attractive bodies with the attractiveness of the personalities who occupy them, well said by her boyfriend:
“I love your body,” Brian would say, carefully. “Because Kristin lives in your body.”
2. The societally determined and very modern belief that only slim people are attractive. Oh, how different the attitudes have been at other times in history, when the attractive women were "fleshy" and "pleasingly plump" and "Rubenesque" and "curvy," to name some terms from more recent times.
posted by bearwife at 12:52 PM on April 8, 2015 [4 favorites]