The Tyranny of Pew-Pew: How Fun Fantasy Violence Became Inescapable
April 24, 2015 8:27 AM Subscribe
1977 changed everything in Hollywood. "I'm not here to wonder whether Star Wars: Rebels is legacy pop culture — like DC and Marvel superheroes — that parents might be forcing on their kids the way white boomer dads evangelize Steely Dan.
Instead, as the Avengers kick off another summer of mighty Marvel mook-blasting, I just want to ask: Why do we (mostly) agree, today, that this material is appropriate? And is something lost when pew-pew action/adventure follows the trajectory of soft drinks and fast food — going from occasional treat to everyday staple? In short, how did the decapitations of orcs and robots become the very center of our media culture?"
I've long thought it's strange how violence is deemed acceptable for children, but heaven forbid that there's even a hint of sexuality.
posted by unposted letter at 9:01 AM on April 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by unposted letter at 9:01 AM on April 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
I think this piece is worth mulling over, though I think it cherry-picks bygone culture a bit (what about The Lone Ranger? What about the Superman and Batman TV shows? Were they not mainstream?).
I think it gets at something important, and I say that as a guy who's been enjoying the hell out of playing a fantasy-violence-with-mice boardgame with his 4yo for the last several months. Maybe I'll rethink some parenting stuff.
posted by gurple at 9:03 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think it gets at something important, and I say that as a guy who's been enjoying the hell out of playing a fantasy-violence-with-mice boardgame with his 4yo for the last several months. Maybe I'll rethink some parenting stuff.
posted by gurple at 9:03 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Gee, I don't know, why? And when? No wait! Don't tell us! At all!
I hope he didn't get paid for that. Dungeons and Dragons shouldn't be mentioned if you don't get it. Fritz Leiber's Swords series was great and D&D let you be your own hero with more at stake than watching cartoons. The long-term effects of showing details of the war in Vietnam 10 years earlier don't need to be looked at because of something. "Finally, did you see the time Burt Reynolds played a fantasyland king..." What?! Shut the fuck up about Burt Reynolds and go back to remedial writing.
posted by Zack_Replica at 9:06 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I hope he didn't get paid for that. Dungeons and Dragons shouldn't be mentioned if you don't get it. Fritz Leiber's Swords series was great and D&D let you be your own hero with more at stake than watching cartoons. The long-term effects of showing details of the war in Vietnam 10 years earlier don't need to be looked at because of something. "Finally, did you see the time Burt Reynolds played a fantasyland king..." What?! Shut the fuck up about Burt Reynolds and go back to remedial writing.
posted by Zack_Replica at 9:06 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Once the westerns died, and Vietnam reminded Americans that it's not always easy to spot the villains, movie and TV heroes who killed lots of sumbitches were grim grown-ups
"Once the westerns died"? Gunsmoke ran until 1975, Bonanza until '73. The era of goofy Burt Reynolds car-chase movies being the epitome of action-adventure entertainment lasted, at best, for a few years in the middle of the decade. Cherry-picking doesn't begin to describe it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
"Once the westerns died"? Gunsmoke ran until 1975, Bonanza until '73. The era of goofy Burt Reynolds car-chase movies being the epitome of action-adventure entertainment lasted, at best, for a few years in the middle of the decade. Cherry-picking doesn't begin to describe it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
Kids were playing cops & robbers, cowboys & Indians, army, etc. before Star Wars came along. It was all "shoot the bad guys" without much introspection into what "bad" meant and whether it justified shooting them.
posted by Foosnark at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 9:08 AM on April 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
For that matter, it was pretty easy for myself and my brothers and friends to change cowboys-and-Indians into Starfleet-and-Klingons, given that Star Trek itself was originally pitched as "Wagon Train to the stars."
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:11 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:11 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I like Star Wars, not a rabid fan though. I do think it says something that in our new Gilded Age --Disney owns a billion dollar franchise based entirely on Endless War.
(Also I'm completely sick of comic book movies. So goddamned boring.)
posted by jeff-o-matic at 9:14 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
(Also I'm completely sick of comic book movies. So goddamned boring.)
posted by jeff-o-matic at 9:14 AM on April 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
>It's worth remembering that, before Star Wars, our popular culture wasn't cluttered up with violent sci-fi and fantasy heroes.
If we're not counting Westerns, war movies, cop movies, monster movies, Tarzan movies, comics dating to the 30s, etc., etc. This guy's thesis is a bunch of baloney, but I'm impressed by his ability to do hand-wringing and hand-waving at the same time.
The idea that enjoying this stuff as entertainment makes people more violent is a hard sell, too (the latter half of the 20th century even showing an increase in film violence “associated with reduced societal violence”).
Actual violence is bad. Movies are movies.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:16 AM on April 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
If we're not counting Westerns, war movies, cop movies, monster movies, Tarzan movies, comics dating to the 30s, etc., etc. This guy's thesis is a bunch of baloney, but I'm impressed by his ability to do hand-wringing and hand-waving at the same time.
The idea that enjoying this stuff as entertainment makes people more violent is a hard sell, too (the latter half of the 20th century even showing an increase in film violence “associated with reduced societal violence”).
Actual violence is bad. Movies are movies.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:16 AM on April 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
For a moment, Jeff-o-matic, I though you were alluding to some Dismey purchase of Games Workshop that I wasn't aware of. And now I'll just sit here longing for something that will neber be...
posted by Slackermagee at 9:17 AM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 9:17 AM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
The idea that enjoying this stuff as entertainment makes people more violent is a hard sell, too
Does he do that, though? I thought he rather refreshingly didn't do that, but maybe I missed something.
The writing is bad and the logic is flawed, but I don't think this piece is hand-wringing about violence in our culture. I think it's hand-wringing about the standardization of our media.
posted by gurple at 9:20 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does he do that, though? I thought he rather refreshingly didn't do that, but maybe I missed something.
The writing is bad and the logic is flawed, but I don't think this piece is hand-wringing about violence in our culture. I think it's hand-wringing about the standardization of our media.
posted by gurple at 9:20 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The constant fighting and over-the-top violence is pretty much why I have no stomach for the comic book movies. Unending mayhem just isn't entertaining.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:25 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 9:25 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am not here to wonder whether the kids appeared on my lawn first, and then I started hating them, or whether it was the other way around. I just want to ask: how can I wring my hands about this as loudly as possible?
posted by Behemoth at 9:25 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Behemoth at 9:25 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Unending mayhem just isn't entertaining.
Indeed. To be entertaining, the mayhem must be punctuation. The sentence "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is unreadable.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:29 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Indeed. To be entertaining, the mayhem must be punctuation. The sentence "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is unreadable.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:29 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
IRL we have omnipotent flesh adversaries, and omnipotent mechanical adversaries, that about covers human angst in general. So, fantasy warfare against the enemies who have already won, makes our lives more liveable. We slaves to the systems, stay stimulated and hopeful via entertaining, collective, delusions. We then are more useful tools, if it didn't serve somehow, it wouldn't be.
posted by Oyéah at 9:32 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 9:32 AM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I did like this essay's mention of leveling up through violence and how that is a predominant theme in so much media for children. It would be refreshing to see violence presented as a failure and worst option, or at least have the heroes not ignore or brush off the consequences of violence, even if the people dying are the enemy. I'm not a fan of Orson Scott Card, but his treatment of violence in Ender's Game, even when done in reaction to actions by enemies, was one of the things I liked about that book.
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:35 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:35 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Also I'm completely sick of comic book movies. So goddamned boring.)
The term you want is "capeshit".
posted by clarknova at 9:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
The term you want is "capeshit".
posted by clarknova at 9:36 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Unending mayhem just isn't entertaining.
Indeed. To be entertaining, the mayhem must be punctuation. The sentence "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is unreadable.
Am I seriously the only one who enjoyed Shoot 'em Up?
posted by griphus at 9:38 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Indeed. To be entertaining, the mayhem must be punctuation. The sentence "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is unreadable.
Am I seriously the only one who enjoyed Shoot 'em Up?
posted by griphus at 9:38 AM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
If this is really about what level of violence and killing is deemed appropriate for 7 year olds, the formula is quite simple.
If the show has licensing deals for action figures, toys, clothing, and other paraphernalia, then whatever violent scenes it may contain are appropriate for 7 year olds to watch. If not, it's rated for adults only.
posted by rocket88 at 9:38 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
If the show has licensing deals for action figures, toys, clothing, and other paraphernalia, then whatever violent scenes it may contain are appropriate for 7 year olds to watch. If not, it's rated for adults only.
posted by rocket88 at 9:38 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
If the show has licensing deals for action figures, toys, clothing, and other paraphernalia, then whatever violent scenes it may contain are appropriate for 7 year olds to watch.
You know... for kids!
posted by gurple at 9:41 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know... for kids!
posted by gurple at 9:41 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
It wasn't Lucas's Star Wars that "encouraged its audience to believe that fantastic play meant everything" in the 70's, it was Joseph Campbell, who systematized and standardized the plot structure that most of these movies (including Star Wars) are based on. That's why everything is samey.
Of course, Campbell did this based on traditional (and violent) mythology like Gilgamesh, Icelandic sagas, Arthurian romance, etc. These traditional stories usually include — but question — "[the idea] that killing every monster or badguy in the room makes us better". Maybe what this writer is concerned about is that recent entertainment just doesn't subject this idea to much questioning.
posted by demonic winged headgear at 9:42 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Of course, Campbell did this based on traditional (and violent) mythology like Gilgamesh, Icelandic sagas, Arthurian romance, etc. These traditional stories usually include — but question — "[the idea] that killing every monster or badguy in the room makes us better". Maybe what this writer is concerned about is that recent entertainment just doesn't subject this idea to much questioning.
posted by demonic winged headgear at 9:42 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Ummmmm....cause it's (marginally) better than decapitating Native Americans (westerns) or Nazis?
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:42 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:42 AM on April 24, 2015
You know... for kids!
I hate to break it to you, but those are for... "adults".
posted by clarknova at 9:44 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hate to break it to you, but those are for... "adults".
posted by clarknova at 9:44 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
This article was awful. Awfully written, Awfully researched, with no clear point. I grew up on star wars and godzilla, late night TV westerns and Reynolds films as well -- but I don't pretend they are the center of the universe... nor that they really are the center of anything. In fact, star wars & indiana jones are nods to movie serials from the 30's & 40's. (Most of campbell mythology as plot source bullshit is just that...)
posted by smidgen at 9:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by smidgen at 9:57 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Things were so much more wholesome and pure when movies were about bayoneting enemy soldiers in the stomach or shooting Indians off of their horses by the dozens!
This article appears under the caption OLD MAN YELLS AT CLOUD.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:58 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
This article appears under the caption OLD MAN YELLS AT CLOUD.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:58 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
These traditional stories usually include — but question — "[the idea] that killing every monster or badguy in the room makes us better". Maybe what this writer is concerned about is that recent entertainment just doesn't subject this idea to much questioning.
Even Star Wars does that to some degree, making the death of Vader a sad or bittersweet moment to reflect on the good that remained buried within him. The Emperor wanted to turn Luke into a monster by requiring him to kill the monster.
If anything is ruining action movies for me lately it's not the way heroes and villains are written, it's just the special effects have ramped up the scope of everything so much that fight scenes lose interest. It's like the fighting in a video game most of the time. I get a lot more heart pounding out of stuff like the giant tidal wave in Interstellar because it's something weird, terrifying, and deadly dangerous I have never really seen before.
But hey, movies like Interstellar are still being made too so I don't really feel like we are in any sort of crisis if other people are digging the comic book movies too. I wouldn't mind more fantasy being made though, the stories are often just as violent and cliched but I am getting a little sick of the superhero stuff. That may just be because fantasy novels are my escapist genre of choice and I've never been into comics at all.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Even Star Wars does that to some degree, making the death of Vader a sad or bittersweet moment to reflect on the good that remained buried within him. The Emperor wanted to turn Luke into a monster by requiring him to kill the monster.
If anything is ruining action movies for me lately it's not the way heroes and villains are written, it's just the special effects have ramped up the scope of everything so much that fight scenes lose interest. It's like the fighting in a video game most of the time. I get a lot more heart pounding out of stuff like the giant tidal wave in Interstellar because it's something weird, terrifying, and deadly dangerous I have never really seen before.
But hey, movies like Interstellar are still being made too so I don't really feel like we are in any sort of crisis if other people are digging the comic book movies too. I wouldn't mind more fantasy being made though, the stories are often just as violent and cliched but I am getting a little sick of the superhero stuff. That may just be because fantasy novels are my escapist genre of choice and I've never been into comics at all.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:00 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
So, what are counterexamples. Is the Fast and the Furious series so compelling and fun because gun fights are ancillary to cars driving?
posted by Apocryphon at 10:03 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 10:03 AM on April 24, 2015
Am I seriously the only one who enjoyed Shoot 'em Up?
I barely remember it.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:18 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I barely remember it.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:18 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Given that the author writes about "leveling up" and Spielberg, it's odd that he missed mentioning that Spielberg just recently became attached as director to the film adaption of Ready Player One, a book that's a perfect storm of RPGish character development and consequence-free violence.
posted by switchsonic at 10:25 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by switchsonic at 10:25 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Bad article is bad.
However, the point about the end of the western is a bit off. Gunsmoke and Bonanza may have run into the mid-70s, but the western genre had long past its heyday by that point - you're looking at tenacious survivors. Peak western was 1959-61 for TV, and few big successes came out on film after 66 besides Butch Cassidy and True Grit in 69 (well-regarded films did, but Once Upon A Time in the West was not a US success; The Wild Bunch was 17th that year).
It's the same sort of thing with how the 80s action movie lingered into the 90s but only in a thrashing around, body-doesn't-know-it's-dead-yet sort of fashion.
posted by Palindromedary at 10:27 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
However, the point about the end of the western is a bit off. Gunsmoke and Bonanza may have run into the mid-70s, but the western genre had long past its heyday by that point - you're looking at tenacious survivors. Peak western was 1959-61 for TV, and few big successes came out on film after 66 besides Butch Cassidy and True Grit in 69 (well-regarded films did, but Once Upon A Time in the West was not a US success; The Wild Bunch was 17th that year).
It's the same sort of thing with how the 80s action movie lingered into the 90s but only in a thrashing around, body-doesn't-know-it's-dead-yet sort of fashion.
posted by Palindromedary at 10:27 AM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I didn't want to be the first to say it so I'm glad everyone's on the same page about this. I remember my father showing me "Dandy" and "Beano" comics which were full of violence. Half the stories were about the war, and had some pretty racist stereotypes in them. You think kids in the 40s weren't running around pretend-shooting each other?
posted by Hoopo at 10:32 AM on April 24, 2015
posted by Hoopo at 10:32 AM on April 24, 2015
I'm also glad that I wasn't the only one who thought that this was an article struggling to prove a bunch of very shaky points. Not so much about the gradual predominance of cartoonish violence in pop culture, but that it somehow "began" in 1977, for whatever reason -- because Burt Reynolds stopped being popular and Luke Skywalker started being popular? Huh? And the little dig against "superstar dude" Woody Allen that goes nowhere and has nothing to do with the rest of the article?
Anyway, read any great cinema book, like Pictures at a Revolution, and you'll realize that (Star Wars notwithstanding) of all the years that "changed" Hollywood, 1977 was arguably the least of them. If anything, 1967 changed Hollywood more than 1977 did.
posted by blucevalo at 10:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyway, read any great cinema book, like Pictures at a Revolution, and you'll realize that (Star Wars notwithstanding) of all the years that "changed" Hollywood, 1977 was arguably the least of them. If anything, 1967 changed Hollywood more than 1977 did.
posted by blucevalo at 10:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The hyper-violent action hero movies of the 80's, like Rambo, Arnold movies, etc have mostly disappeared I think.
I think Bryan Singer's X-Men back in, what? 2000? Changed everything. It was the first superhero movie (outside of Superman, I guess...) that didn't look dorky. And then Sam Raimi's Spiderman.
People love spectacle.
Post 9/11, I always find the "let's blow up a major American city" scenario kind of weird though. That's not entertainment to me.
Watching Hobbit Part 3, I was really weary of seeing massive CGI battles between orcs and whatever in front of a castle. Technically brilliant, but so so boring.
posted by Nevin at 10:51 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think Bryan Singer's X-Men back in, what? 2000? Changed everything. It was the first superhero movie (outside of Superman, I guess...) that didn't look dorky. And then Sam Raimi's Spiderman.
People love spectacle.
Post 9/11, I always find the "let's blow up a major American city" scenario kind of weird though. That's not entertainment to me.
Watching Hobbit Part 3, I was really weary of seeing massive CGI battles between orcs and whatever in front of a castle. Technically brilliant, but so so boring.
posted by Nevin at 10:51 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ugh, yeah.
Hobbit 3 (No compunction to refer to the "proper" title) was so bad and boring that it made the second one worse on reflection. I'd like to see a phantom edit of that trilogy running about 120 minutes, with about 80% of the "action" and 70% of the elves removed.
posted by General Tonic at 11:01 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hobbit 3 (No compunction to refer to the "proper" title) was so bad and boring that it made the second one worse on reflection. I'd like to see a phantom edit of that trilogy running about 120 minutes, with about 80% of the "action" and 70% of the elves removed.
posted by General Tonic at 11:01 AM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
70% of the elves removed.
For an immortal, dwindling race there sure were a lot of Elf pawns around to heave into the meat grinder.
Anyway, yes, The Hobbit 3: Dwarves and Dwarvier was basically what I was thinking about. The firts two were OK, the third was so deadly dull.
posted by GuyZero at 11:10 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
For an immortal, dwindling race there sure were a lot of Elf pawns around to heave into the meat grinder.
Anyway, yes, The Hobbit 3: Dwarves and Dwarvier was basically what I was thinking about. The firts two were OK, the third was so deadly dull.
posted by GuyZero at 11:10 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, there have always been violent movies. Westerns, Sci Fi, War movies, monster movies... indeed.
But until relatively recently, those were B Pictures. They were what children and the intellectually stunted watched. With some exceptions, they were not A Pictures and they were not aimed at adult audiences.
This is the inverse of what it is today. Today, the A Pictures -- the ones taking all the theatres and advertising dollars -- are the sci fi, comic book, star wars movies, etc. This is fact.
I used to be able to see multiple good movies every single week. Every single week! For decades! Not anymore. Now it's just shit shit shit and more shit.
Star Wars -- yes, even the first one -- is shit. It's shitty acting, shitty editing, and boring as fuck. It was meant for children and the intellectually stunted. And it found them.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 11:13 AM on April 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
But until relatively recently, those were B Pictures. They were what children and the intellectually stunted watched. With some exceptions, they were not A Pictures and they were not aimed at adult audiences.
This is the inverse of what it is today. Today, the A Pictures -- the ones taking all the theatres and advertising dollars -- are the sci fi, comic book, star wars movies, etc. This is fact.
I used to be able to see multiple good movies every single week. Every single week! For decades! Not anymore. Now it's just shit shit shit and more shit.
Star Wars -- yes, even the first one -- is shit. It's shitty acting, shitty editing, and boring as fuck. It was meant for children and the intellectually stunted. And it found them.
posted by You Should See the Other Guy at 11:13 AM on April 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
Westerns, Sci Fi, War movies, monster movies... indeed.
But until relatively recently, those were B Pictures. They were what children and the intellectually stunted watched
I'm not even sure where to begin with this. It's almost worse than the article itself
posted by Hoopo at 11:23 AM on April 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
But until relatively recently, those were B Pictures. They were what children and the intellectually stunted watched
I'm not even sure where to begin with this. It's almost worse than the article itself
posted by Hoopo at 11:23 AM on April 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
Clearly you are a superior being because of your haughty bullshit highbrow tastes.
posted by umberto at 11:24 AM on April 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by umberto at 11:24 AM on April 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
>They were what children and the intellectually stunted watched.
I guess some people are entertained by escapist fiction about robots and vampires, while other people are entertained by escapist fiction about how much smarter they are than everybody else.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:24 AM on April 24, 2015 [33 favorites]
I guess some people are entertained by escapist fiction about robots and vampires, while other people are entertained by escapist fiction about how much smarter they are than everybody else.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:24 AM on April 24, 2015 [33 favorites]
I've long thought it's strange how violence is deemed acceptable for children, but heaven forbid that there's even a hint of sexuality.
Wait are you actually advocating for sexuality in children's media? Like seriously? And you're getting favorites for this?
Wow MF, just... Wow.
posted by holybagel at 11:24 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wait are you actually advocating for sexuality in children's media? Like seriously? And you're getting favorites for this?
Wow MF, just... Wow.
posted by holybagel at 11:24 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the idea is that seeing someone's boob is maybe not as bad as seeing someone graphically decapitated?
posted by RustyBrooks at 11:26 AM on April 24, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by RustyBrooks at 11:26 AM on April 24, 2015 [32 favorites]
It's shitty acting, shitty editing, and boring as fuck. It was meant for children and the intellectually stunted. And it found them.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
posted by General Tonic at 11:26 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
posted by General Tonic at 11:26 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
...the way white boomer dads evangelize Steely Dan.
Steely Dan ? Don't you mean Talking Heads ? Not that there is that much difference but still...
posted by y2karl at 11:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Steely Dan ? Don't you mean Talking Heads ? Not that there is that much difference but still...
posted by y2karl at 11:39 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Steely Dan ? Don't you mean Talking Heads ? Not that there is that much difference but still...
I found it. The most empirically wrong statement in history.
posted by Palindromedary at 11:43 AM on April 24, 2015 [37 favorites]
I found it. The most empirically wrong statement in history.
posted by Palindromedary at 11:43 AM on April 24, 2015 [37 favorites]
I used to be able to see multiple good movies every single week. Every single week! For decades! Not anymore. Now it's just shit shit shit and more shit.
Hehe.. complaining about the depth of popular media because one doesn't want make an effort. "It's all Katy Perry, 24 hrs a day! Every time I turn on the radio randomly or go to Nordstroms!" etc, etc, ad absurdium.
posted by smidgen at 11:53 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Hehe.. complaining about the depth of popular media because one doesn't want make an effort. "It's all Katy Perry, 24 hrs a day! Every time I turn on the radio randomly or go to Nordstroms!" etc, etc, ad absurdium.
posted by smidgen at 11:53 AM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
The most empirically wrong statement in history.
Your favorite boomer band sucks.
posted by y2karl at 12:00 PM on April 24, 2015
Your favorite boomer band sucks.
posted by y2karl at 12:00 PM on April 24, 2015
I found it. The most empirically wrong statement in history.
It's not even wrong.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:04 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not even wrong.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:04 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just want to know what us gracelessly aging morons should be enjoying instead of Steely Dan and Star Wars so as to earn us an approving nod from our betters
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:09 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:09 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Smashing Pumpkins and Cloud Atlas.
posted by smidgen at 12:11 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by smidgen at 12:11 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not even wrong.
They both released peak albums in the late 70s, but other than that I'm trying to fathom how one could confuse the smooth, impeccably engineered, synth-heavy jazz fusion of Steely Dan with the herky-jerky guitar-focused New Wave of Talking Heads.
It's like confusing Johnny Cash and Slayer because they both had Rick Rubin-produced albums on American Records in the early 90s.
It's so wrong I can prove it mathematically with an etch-a-sketch and a slide rule.
posted by Palindromedary at 12:11 PM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
They both released peak albums in the late 70s, but other than that I'm trying to fathom how one could confuse the smooth, impeccably engineered, synth-heavy jazz fusion of Steely Dan with the herky-jerky guitar-focused New Wave of Talking Heads.
It's like confusing Johnny Cash and Slayer because they both had Rick Rubin-produced albums on American Records in the early 90s.
It's so wrong I can prove it mathematically with an etch-a-sketch and a slide rule.
posted by Palindromedary at 12:11 PM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
1) Steely Dan rules
2) It would be interesting to read an article about this subject that is actually based in reality; good "middlebrow" films used to be the A movies but now perhaps they're mostly distributed by indie studios (owned by the likes of Mark Cuban). A movies are now "capeshit" but there are some of the big budget popcorn films that aren't complete trash, IMO, it's just that genre film has become very big budget, middlebrow is a little more obscure due to the value of some illusion of "independence" (??), and A movie Oscar bids seem a lot more obvious and transparent these days. Also, good film is still being made, but if you're American you really have to want to know about it (especially since non-American films are completely ignored in America).
posted by easter queen at 12:14 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
2) It would be interesting to read an article about this subject that is actually based in reality; good "middlebrow" films used to be the A movies but now perhaps they're mostly distributed by indie studios (owned by the likes of Mark Cuban). A movies are now "capeshit" but there are some of the big budget popcorn films that aren't complete trash, IMO, it's just that genre film has become very big budget, middlebrow is a little more obscure due to the value of some illusion of "independence" (??), and A movie Oscar bids seem a lot more obvious and transparent these days. Also, good film is still being made, but if you're American you really have to want to know about it (especially since non-American films are completely ignored in America).
posted by easter queen at 12:14 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
I used to be quite a film snob when I was younger. I got Halliwell's Film Guide and meticulously worked my way through everything with four or five stars, which, thankfully, this being the videotape era, took me a few years rather than the decades required when proper film snobbery involved haunting second-run theaters and staying up until 2am to watch Les Enfants du Paradis on PBS.
Sometime in my early 20s, I realized that I appreciated good films, but, oh my God, I loved trash. I recall going to Showtown in Little Tokyo and there is a scene in which Brandon Lee looks at Dolph Lungren and says "Kenner, just in case we get killed, I wanted to tell you, you have the biggest dick I've ever seen on a man."
And I thought, perfect. That's exactly the sort of dialogue I want to hear in a trashy film. And the film is full of this sort of thing:
We've got a problem here. There are more bad guys than we've got bullets.
You have the right to be dead.
We're gonna nail this guy. And when we get done... we're gonna go eat fish off those naked chicks!
And, you know, if liking that sort of thing makes me intellectually stunted, so be it. I like to think it demonstrates a broadness of taste and a willingness to intellectually engage with a wide variety of creative works, and I'd like to think this great big marble has all sorts of stuff that is valuable, each in its own way, because there is a variety of people and they will have a lot of different things they like, and the world is made better by variety, but so be it.
I've got the most stunted intellect I have ever seen on a man.
posted by maxsparber at 12:21 PM on April 24, 2015 [16 favorites]
Sometime in my early 20s, I realized that I appreciated good films, but, oh my God, I loved trash. I recall going to Showtown in Little Tokyo and there is a scene in which Brandon Lee looks at Dolph Lungren and says "Kenner, just in case we get killed, I wanted to tell you, you have the biggest dick I've ever seen on a man."
And I thought, perfect. That's exactly the sort of dialogue I want to hear in a trashy film. And the film is full of this sort of thing:
We've got a problem here. There are more bad guys than we've got bullets.
You have the right to be dead.
We're gonna nail this guy. And when we get done... we're gonna go eat fish off those naked chicks!
And, you know, if liking that sort of thing makes me intellectually stunted, so be it. I like to think it demonstrates a broadness of taste and a willingness to intellectually engage with a wide variety of creative works, and I'd like to think this great big marble has all sorts of stuff that is valuable, each in its own way, because there is a variety of people and they will have a lot of different things they like, and the world is made better by variety, but so be it.
I've got the most stunted intellect I have ever seen on a man.
posted by maxsparber at 12:21 PM on April 24, 2015 [16 favorites]
30 minutes of two dudes punching each other is really dull. It's not action. It's just punching.
Come on now, I thought They Live was a great action movie.
posted by surlyben at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Come on now, I thought They Live was a great action movie.
posted by surlyben at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
The entire noir genre was "B" movies, except for a few that transcended those boundaries. Also Westerns. Also epics. Also musicals. Also sci-fi. Hollywood has always churned out a lot of movies in any genre you care to name, and some will last and lots will not. Much of the time, no one had any idea if the movie they were making would be a classic or just another time-filler for movie-goers. Many movies that aimed for "highbrow" were boring and flat and sank into obscurity.
Some of my favorite movies, in fact, are B movies, because there is pleasure in a cliché well-done.
posted by emjaybee at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Some of my favorite movies, in fact, are B movies, because there is pleasure in a cliché well-done.
posted by emjaybee at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wait are you actually advocating for sexuality in children's media? Like seriously? And you're getting favorites for this?
Aren't Bronies kind of an attempt to dip our cultural toes in the water of incorporating sexuality into children's entertainment?
posted by Nevin at 12:29 PM on April 24, 2015
Aren't Bronies kind of an attempt to dip our cultural toes in the water of incorporating sexuality into children's entertainment?
posted by Nevin at 12:29 PM on April 24, 2015
I'm a youth librarian who purchases pop culture stuff for my young patrons. Superheroes and Star Wars just speak to some kids. These are often the same kids who inhale mythology books. (Whoever decided to turn the Percy Jackson books in to graphic novels was a genius). I have little kids as young as 4 who know exactly where we keep our superhero stuff and they park themselves in front of the shelf and just flip through "R2D2’s Big Book of Fun" (not a real book) mesmerized while their parents grab more , uh, edifying, fare to bring home.
I recently purchased "the Adventures of Luke Skywalker" by Tony Diterlizzi and had a hard time cataloging it. It's got gorgeous Ralph McQuarrie illustrations, but the text is long, so it went with my middle grade books. Yesterday, in the middle of the hubbub of a Lego program, I saw a boy, about 5, just staring at the shelf of new fiction.
"Are those books for buying?" he wanted to know. I told him they were for borrowing. He looked very sad.
"This isn't my library. I don't have a card. I came with my friend. But this..." And here he bent down and picked up the Star Wars book "...is awesome."
He carried that book around for the rest of the afternoon, while I tried to find out if there was a way he could borrow it even though he was with another family and didn't have his card. His friend's mom REALLY didn't want it on her card. I don't do circulation, so I don't know what happened, but the book isn't where it's supposed to be today, so either somebody caved or he hid it somewhere.
My point is, Star Wars spoke to that little kid.
posted by Biblio at 12:42 PM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
I recently purchased "the Adventures of Luke Skywalker" by Tony Diterlizzi and had a hard time cataloging it. It's got gorgeous Ralph McQuarrie illustrations, but the text is long, so it went with my middle grade books. Yesterday, in the middle of the hubbub of a Lego program, I saw a boy, about 5, just staring at the shelf of new fiction.
"Are those books for buying?" he wanted to know. I told him they were for borrowing. He looked very sad.
"This isn't my library. I don't have a card. I came with my friend. But this..." And here he bent down and picked up the Star Wars book "...is awesome."
He carried that book around for the rest of the afternoon, while I tried to find out if there was a way he could borrow it even though he was with another family and didn't have his card. His friend's mom REALLY didn't want it on her card. I don't do circulation, so I don't know what happened, but the book isn't where it's supposed to be today, so either somebody caved or he hid it somewhere.
My point is, Star Wars spoke to that little kid.
posted by Biblio at 12:42 PM on April 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
(Showdown in Little Tokyo is such an insane film—I will never be able to erase the image of Dolph running through the streets, dressed as if he just came out of the "Dress like your favorite Godzilla extra" costume contest. Though for me his best work is always going to be I Come in Peace because of the little alien handguns you can use to blow up a city block. Why those weren't standard-issue on Next Generation will always be a mystery to me.)
Star Wars did change neighborhoods full of kids running around. Instead of screaming "bang! bang!" like the generation before them, they went "pew pew pew pew!" Merchandising deals connected to the film and the creation of ILM as an effects house had more to do with changing the culture than any part of the film itself and that was just from the business side.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:44 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Star Wars did change neighborhoods full of kids running around. Instead of screaming "bang! bang!" like the generation before them, they went "pew pew pew pew!" Merchandising deals connected to the film and the creation of ILM as an effects house had more to do with changing the culture than any part of the film itself and that was just from the business side.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:44 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Aren't Bronies kind of an attempt to dip our cultural toes in the water of incorporating sexuality into children's entertainment?
Um, other way around, I think.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:47 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Um, other way around, I think.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:47 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I question the whole premise. The author really works hard to find a period of time when violence wasn't deemed appropriate for children, and kinda finds it in the Vietnam and immediate post-Vietnam era. But I think if you take a slightly broader look, what you find is that period was exceptional in that Hollywood was on a pacifist tear, and then reverted to the mean by the late seventies, and Star Wars was arguably part of that mean reversion. In fact, I think part of the original SW success was that it tapped into a hunger among US audiences for a morally black and white story that doesn't dwell heavily on any are-we-the-baddies navel gazing. (I mean, Lucas burns a lot of screen time making it really clear that the bad guys are really bad. For a film that's often compared to Kurosawa, it has very little moral ambiguity.)
In the 50s and 60s, TV and movies were full of casual violence aimed at broadly-sketched "bad guys", often cartoonish Nazis. Earlier than that, you had Westerns, with their own canon of villains. Some of them are pretty casually violent even by modern standards, although the ones marketed to children (e.g. the Red Ryder franchise, which has a lot of parallels with the Star Wars universe in terms of cutting across multiple types of media and inspiring a fairly large, for the time, fandom) did sometimes take pains to contextualize the violence into a moral framework.
That is the historical mean: as violence is part of life, so is it part of the stories told to children, whether directly or through various media. Heroes use violence in the service of morally laudable goals; villains use it in the service of nefarious ones. There's no judgement made on violence qua violence, at least broadly. The Red Ryder probably killed more people on-screen and in the comic books than Bundy, but he's OK because he has a code; he's a Good Guy. Violence is merely the language in which the good vs. evil explication takes place.
Where I do think Scherstuhl has a point is in regards to Lucas and Spielberg's more recent work, which seems to have suddenly become uncomfortable with the sort of casual-yet-justified violence that peppers their earlier movies and on which they became famous. While I certainly can't speak to what drives them personally, there do seem to be some parallels between the current era and the post-Vietnam one, in terms of a certain distrust of authority and a disillusionment with violence as a problem-solving mechanism. But, like most things in popular culture, this is seemingly cyclical. If Hollywood dishes out gritty anti-heroes alongside morally agonized champions for too long, eventually the public will demand--and they will get--something a bit more palatable. So at some point in the near future, we may get our own 1977.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:51 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
In the 50s and 60s, TV and movies were full of casual violence aimed at broadly-sketched "bad guys", often cartoonish Nazis. Earlier than that, you had Westerns, with their own canon of villains. Some of them are pretty casually violent even by modern standards, although the ones marketed to children (e.g. the Red Ryder franchise, which has a lot of parallels with the Star Wars universe in terms of cutting across multiple types of media and inspiring a fairly large, for the time, fandom) did sometimes take pains to contextualize the violence into a moral framework.
That is the historical mean: as violence is part of life, so is it part of the stories told to children, whether directly or through various media. Heroes use violence in the service of morally laudable goals; villains use it in the service of nefarious ones. There's no judgement made on violence qua violence, at least broadly. The Red Ryder probably killed more people on-screen and in the comic books than Bundy, but he's OK because he has a code; he's a Good Guy. Violence is merely the language in which the good vs. evil explication takes place.
Where I do think Scherstuhl has a point is in regards to Lucas and Spielberg's more recent work, which seems to have suddenly become uncomfortable with the sort of casual-yet-justified violence that peppers their earlier movies and on which they became famous. While I certainly can't speak to what drives them personally, there do seem to be some parallels between the current era and the post-Vietnam one, in terms of a certain distrust of authority and a disillusionment with violence as a problem-solving mechanism. But, like most things in popular culture, this is seemingly cyclical. If Hollywood dishes out gritty anti-heroes alongside morally agonized champions for too long, eventually the public will demand--and they will get--something a bit more palatable. So at some point in the near future, we may get our own 1977.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:51 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Wait are you actually advocating for sexuality in children's media?
Without putting words in anyone's mouth, I don't think the idea is wholly ridiculous. Though you can argue, with some merit, that violence has more of a place in children's media than sexuality, because violence is something that children experience (if perhaps in a trivial way) from a young age and therefore have a certain need to understand, and hopefully channel appropriately.
But particularly if you are talking about media aimed at older children, it's both weird and somewhat counterproductive to edit out sexuality as thoroughly as is done in the US; as part of the adult world it's something that children are naturally fascinated by anyway, and it seems like it's a missed opportunity to create positive role models and set behavioral expectations. As is is now, with childrens' media being completely desexed, the behaviors and roles that children are exposed to are the ones from adult media, which often have a lot of baggage and context that are really not helpful or not appropriate.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:52 PM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Without putting words in anyone's mouth, I don't think the idea is wholly ridiculous. Though you can argue, with some merit, that violence has more of a place in children's media than sexuality, because violence is something that children experience (if perhaps in a trivial way) from a young age and therefore have a certain need to understand, and hopefully channel appropriately.
But particularly if you are talking about media aimed at older children, it's both weird and somewhat counterproductive to edit out sexuality as thoroughly as is done in the US; as part of the adult world it's something that children are naturally fascinated by anyway, and it seems like it's a missed opportunity to create positive role models and set behavioral expectations. As is is now, with childrens' media being completely desexed, the behaviors and roles that children are exposed to are the ones from adult media, which often have a lot of baggage and context that are really not helpful or not appropriate.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:52 PM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Aren't Bronies kind of an attempt to dip our cultural toes in the water of incorporating sexuality into children's entertainment?
No, and it really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:01 PM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
No, and it really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:01 PM on April 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure if there was any era in which children weren't exposed to gratuitous violence, just like adults. The good times are when it is mostly simulated and fictional.
posted by General Tonic at 1:19 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by General Tonic at 1:19 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
So on the one hand, my chief beef with the new hobbit movies, which I admit I liked more than most people — look! you found him! the person who actually kinda liked the new hobbit movies! — my chief beef with the new hobbit movies is all the scenes of Legolas or whoever just casually and effortlessly decapitating background goblins left and right. Like, meaningless killing is meaningless, and super boring after a while.
BUT.
Fantasy entertainment has long been chock full of that boring shit. That stupid "Legolas and Gimli count how many orcs they effortlessly kill" game was in Lord of the Rings from the start, after all. And consider all the various things that get killed effortlessly and meaninglessly in Narnia just so C.S. Lewis can impart wisdom or whatever about the importance of wiping the blood off your sword after you kill.
and like okay, I wasn't going to bring this into it, but good lord: the Iliad.
So on the one hand, yup, it's a flaw in the genre. On the other hand, though, it's maybe the oldest literary-generic flaw ever.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:48 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
BUT.
Fantasy entertainment has long been chock full of that boring shit. That stupid "Legolas and Gimli count how many orcs they effortlessly kill" game was in Lord of the Rings from the start, after all. And consider all the various things that get killed effortlessly and meaninglessly in Narnia just so C.S. Lewis can impart wisdom or whatever about the importance of wiping the blood off your sword after you kill.
and like okay, I wasn't going to bring this into it, but good lord: the Iliad.
So on the one hand, yup, it's a flaw in the genre. On the other hand, though, it's maybe the oldest literary-generic flaw ever.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:48 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Aren't Bronies kind of an attempt to dip our cultural toes in the water of incorporating sexuality into children's entertainment?
Is that really the response you want to go with?
posted by holybagel at 1:58 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Is that really the response you want to go with?
posted by holybagel at 1:58 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
"The hyper-violent action hero movies of the 80's, like Rambo, Arnold movies, etc have mostly disappeared I think."
To be fair, the first Rambo movie had a body count of 1.
posted by I-baLL at 2:06 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
To be fair, the first Rambo movie had a body count of 1.
posted by I-baLL at 2:06 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Superheroes and Star Wars just speak to some kids.
Yep. My son has some learning challenges, and learning to read has been a struggle. We worked hard with his school - they would send books home for him to read to us; really, really simple books, the idea being that he could build his confidence at home with us while school gave him a bit more challenge. It worked...for a while, because he just started refusing to read to us. Those books sat untouched for months. And then a few weeks ago, they gave him something a bit more challenging, but it was about superheroes. He read it to me the same night he brought it home. So they sent a couple more of the really simple ones...untouched. We went to P/T interview and requested the more challenging super hero stuff; he will fight through to read those. Because they speak to him.
Same with Star Wars; he hasn't been keen on me reading to him in a long time, until I went to a 2nd book store and picked up a couple of the Young Jedi novels and the first Harry Potter - now he's excited about me reading to him. I promised him that once we've read through "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" that we'll find a copy of the movie.
Intellectually stunted? I don't know, because right now these items are helping me open my kid up to more possibilities than previously. This stuff engages his imagination and motivation in a way that everything else hasn't to this point.
All that being said, I would welcome some entertainment that didn't focus on violence as the means of the hero getting stronger/solving everything.
posted by nubs at 2:08 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yep. My son has some learning challenges, and learning to read has been a struggle. We worked hard with his school - they would send books home for him to read to us; really, really simple books, the idea being that he could build his confidence at home with us while school gave him a bit more challenge. It worked...for a while, because he just started refusing to read to us. Those books sat untouched for months. And then a few weeks ago, they gave him something a bit more challenging, but it was about superheroes. He read it to me the same night he brought it home. So they sent a couple more of the really simple ones...untouched. We went to P/T interview and requested the more challenging super hero stuff; he will fight through to read those. Because they speak to him.
Same with Star Wars; he hasn't been keen on me reading to him in a long time, until I went to a 2nd book store and picked up a couple of the Young Jedi novels and the first Harry Potter - now he's excited about me reading to him. I promised him that once we've read through "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" that we'll find a copy of the movie.
Intellectually stunted? I don't know, because right now these items are helping me open my kid up to more possibilities than previously. This stuff engages his imagination and motivation in a way that everything else hasn't to this point.
All that being said, I would welcome some entertainment that didn't focus on violence as the means of the hero getting stronger/solving everything.
posted by nubs at 2:08 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think this piece is worth mulling over, though I think it cherry-picks bygone culture a bit (what about The Lone Ranger? What about the Superman and Batman TV shows? Were they not mainstream?).
I don't remember those shows having much of a body count. The 1960s Batman TV show only one casualty in its entire run. Most of the episodes focused on property crime instead.
posted by jonp72 at 2:12 PM on April 24, 2015
I don't remember those shows having much of a body count. The 1960s Batman TV show only one casualty in its entire run. Most of the episodes focused on property crime instead.
posted by jonp72 at 2:12 PM on April 24, 2015
Come on now, I thought They Live was a great action movie.
It was -- except for that stupid, interminable, pointless fight sequence between Roddy Piper and Keith David in the alley.
posted by Rash at 2:14 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
It was -- except for that stupid, interminable, pointless fight sequence between Roddy Piper and Keith David in the alley.
posted by Rash at 2:14 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be fair, the first Rambo movie had a body count of 1.
But a kicked-ass count of many
posted by Hoopo at 2:18 PM on April 24, 2015
But a kicked-ass count of many
posted by Hoopo at 2:18 PM on April 24, 2015
It was -- except for that stupid, interminable, pointless fight sequence between Roddy Piper and Keith David in the alley.
"Put on the sunglasses!" (WHAM) "I'm not gonna put on the sunglasses!" (POW) "Are you gonna put on the sunglasses?" (SMACK) "No, not going to wear those sunglasses!" (BIFF) "Put ON the sunglasses!" (puts them on him forcibly)
"Oh, these are stylin'. Thanks."
posted by JHarris at 2:31 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Put on the sunglasses!" (WHAM) "I'm not gonna put on the sunglasses!" (POW) "Are you gonna put on the sunglasses?" (SMACK) "No, not going to wear those sunglasses!" (BIFF) "Put ON the sunglasses!" (puts them on him forcibly)
"Oh, these are stylin'. Thanks."
posted by JHarris at 2:31 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Here's my theory, which I haven't thought hard about and which probably already exists and has a name and a pedigree and a lot of counterarguments already, but here goes:
Humans feel things bigger than they actually are. Young humans doubly so. As such, literary/cinematic/televisual representations that attempt to capture the depth and magnitude of actual human feelings can't do it by just portraying regular things in the world; if you just portray regular things in the world, they'll seem subjectively significantly smaller than they actually are.
As such, if you want to represent the lived experience of humans, and especially of young humans — note, lived experience, not how things actually are in the world — you need to dramatically ramp up the magnitude and intensity of what you're portraying. If you want to portray what mundane experiences feel like, things like "I passed that test!" or "that cool guy said he likes me!" or "oh no my dog is super sick and we're going to have to put her down", what you have to actually show on screen is all-caps stuff like "I FOUND THE CHAOS EMERALDS AND CAN UNLOCK INFINITE POWER" or "I KILLED A THOUSAND ORCS WITHOUT EVEN TRYING MAN" or "THE NUMBER ONE CHIEF PRINCESS OF THE WHOLE UNIVERSE TOTES JUST KISSED ME" or "OH NO THAT GIANT MONSTER JUST ATE A WHOLE PLANET."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:32 PM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
Humans feel things bigger than they actually are. Young humans doubly so. As such, literary/cinematic/televisual representations that attempt to capture the depth and magnitude of actual human feelings can't do it by just portraying regular things in the world; if you just portray regular things in the world, they'll seem subjectively significantly smaller than they actually are.
As such, if you want to represent the lived experience of humans, and especially of young humans — note, lived experience, not how things actually are in the world — you need to dramatically ramp up the magnitude and intensity of what you're portraying. If you want to portray what mundane experiences feel like, things like "I passed that test!" or "that cool guy said he likes me!" or "oh no my dog is super sick and we're going to have to put her down", what you have to actually show on screen is all-caps stuff like "I FOUND THE CHAOS EMERALDS AND CAN UNLOCK INFINITE POWER" or "I KILLED A THOUSAND ORCS WITHOUT EVEN TRYING MAN" or "THE NUMBER ONE CHIEF PRINCESS OF THE WHOLE UNIVERSE TOTES JUST KISSED ME" or "OH NO THAT GIANT MONSTER JUST ATE A WHOLE PLANET."
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:32 PM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
I disagree. I think this is taking the status quo and trying to refit it onto people's psychology. The mere existence of popular non-hyperbolic media, for centuries, proves that. Shakespeare's characters collected no Triforce pieces.
posted by JHarris at 2:34 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 2:34 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's pretty damn insightful Buick, and it definitely has a ring of truth to me.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:35 PM on April 24, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 2:35 PM on April 24, 2015
Movie studies are no longer thinking about maximizing only the box office revenues any more. Now, the studies are primarily focused on finding a "platform" that maximizes US & foreign rental fees, US & foreign DVD sales, US & foreign TV rights, merchandising rights, licensing rights, and other assorted intellectual property rights. Needless to say, the most profitable "platforms" under this new paradigm are all fantasy or superhero movies. In his book, The Big Picture: Money and Power in the New Hollywood, Edward Jay Epstein discovered that all $10 billion movie "platforms" released between 1999 and 2004 shared nine characteristics:
"1. Are based on children's stories, comic books, serials, cartoons, or, in the case of Pirates of the Caribbean, a theme park ride.
2. Feature a child or adolescent protagonist
3. Have a fairy-tale-like plot in which a weak or ineffectual youth is transformed into a powerful and purposeful hero
4. Contain only chaste, if not strictly platonic, relationships between the sexes, with no suggestive nudity, sexual foreplay, provocative language, or even hints of consummated passion.
5. Feature bizarre-looking and eccentric supporting characters that are appropriate for toy and game licensing
6. Depict conflict--though it may be dazzling, large-scale, and noisy--in ways that are sufficiently nonrealistic, and bloodless, for a rating no more restrictive than PG-13
7. End happily, with the hero prevailing over powerful villains and supernatural forces (most of which remain available for potential sequels)
8. Use conventional or digital animation to artificially create action sequences, supernatural forces, and elaborate setting
9. Cast actors who are not ranking stars--at least in the sense that they do not command gross-revenue shares."
As this list of homogenizing criteria uncovered by Epstein makes clear, the problem isn't just "pew-pew," but an entire culture industry built on economic incentives that promote an infantilized, desexualized, irrationalist, anti-humanist monoculture.
posted by jonp72 at 2:37 PM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
"1. Are based on children's stories, comic books, serials, cartoons, or, in the case of Pirates of the Caribbean, a theme park ride.
2. Feature a child or adolescent protagonist
3. Have a fairy-tale-like plot in which a weak or ineffectual youth is transformed into a powerful and purposeful hero
4. Contain only chaste, if not strictly platonic, relationships between the sexes, with no suggestive nudity, sexual foreplay, provocative language, or even hints of consummated passion.
5. Feature bizarre-looking and eccentric supporting characters that are appropriate for toy and game licensing
6. Depict conflict--though it may be dazzling, large-scale, and noisy--in ways that are sufficiently nonrealistic, and bloodless, for a rating no more restrictive than PG-13
7. End happily, with the hero prevailing over powerful villains and supernatural forces (most of which remain available for potential sequels)
8. Use conventional or digital animation to artificially create action sequences, supernatural forces, and elaborate setting
9. Cast actors who are not ranking stars--at least in the sense that they do not command gross-revenue shares."
As this list of homogenizing criteria uncovered by Epstein makes clear, the problem isn't just "pew-pew," but an entire culture industry built on economic incentives that promote an infantilized, desexualized, irrationalist, anti-humanist monoculture.
posted by jonp72 at 2:37 PM on April 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
Also, the only way I can explain my feelings regarding the disagreement with JHarris on this is via a mountaintop lightsaber duel.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:37 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 2:37 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
The 1960s Batman TV show only one casualty in its entire run. Most of the episodes focused on property crime instead.
Wait, what? When? The 60s Batman show is an outlier (like Spiders Georg) and should not be counted, it was goofy fun and grimy recognizing the finality of death (other than of heroic dolphins and dehydrated minions) would be out of place.
posted by JHarris at 2:37 PM on April 24, 2015
Wait, what? When? The 60s Batman show is an outlier (like Spiders Georg) and should not be counted, it was goofy fun and grimy recognizing the finality of death (other than of heroic dolphins and dehydrated minions) would be out of place.
posted by JHarris at 2:37 PM on April 24, 2015
I disagree. I think this is taking the status quo and trying to refit it onto people's psychology. The mere existence of popular non-hyperbolic media, for centuries, proves that. Shakespeare's characters collected no Triforce pieces.
Man, did you see how many people Patroclus kills in the Iliad?
And did you notice that everyone's going around having conversations with gods all the time?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:40 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Man, did you see how many people Patroclus kills in the Iliad?
And did you notice that everyone's going around having conversations with gods all the time?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:40 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
The body count in Hamlet was excessive, even if we discount the Hollywood remake.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:45 PM on April 24, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 2:45 PM on April 24, 2015
also have you noticed that Shakespeare is just crawling with kings and queens? way more than most people would run into most days? And all of them seem to have huge problems? And frequently the way they try to solve them is through killing some folks? And how also some of those kings and queens are made of magic?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:47 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:47 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, the only way I can explain my feelings regarding the disagreement with JHarris on this is via a mountaintop lightsaber duel.
Sorry, lightsabers haven't been invented, I don't even have any spare D-cells, and neither of us likely to be able to climb or even have ready access to a mountain.
We could play Dominion though. I'll bring the chamomile tea.
And did you notice that everyone's going around having conversations with gods all the time?
Right. And that's a stylistic choice that works for that. That stuff goes all the way back to Beowulf really. My point isn't that it's not useful, but you don't need to do it, it's not, and thankfully isn't, everything. That "Dragonball Z-ification" has always been there, but hasn't long been as ubiquitous a facet of our culture as it's been recently. That's due to teen culture (not prone to introspection) rising up and swallowing more of our media due to socio-economic pressures, not because we all long to see power levels and spirit bombs.
posted by JHarris at 2:48 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sorry, lightsabers haven't been invented, I don't even have any spare D-cells, and neither of us likely to be able to climb or even have ready access to a mountain.
We could play Dominion though. I'll bring the chamomile tea.
And did you notice that everyone's going around having conversations with gods all the time?
Right. And that's a stylistic choice that works for that. That stuff goes all the way back to Beowulf really. My point isn't that it's not useful, but you don't need to do it, it's not, and thankfully isn't, everything. That "Dragonball Z-ification" has always been there, but hasn't long been as ubiquitous a facet of our culture as it's been recently. That's due to teen culture (not prone to introspection) rising up and swallowing more of our media due to socio-economic pressures, not because we all long to see power levels and spirit bombs.
posted by JHarris at 2:48 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree, so long as you rename the effect you've observed from "Dragonball Z-ification" to "Homer-ization"
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:49 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:49 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
We could play Dominion though. I'll bring the chamomile tea.
Lapsang Souchong and MLP TCG at noon.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:50 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Lapsang Souchong and MLP TCG at noon.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:50 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
and you seriously do not want to challenge me at Dominion. That will not work out well for you. if there's one thing I've learned all my long years in grad school, it's how to crush people at dominion while avoiding writing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:50 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:50 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
But would that be a Flanderization? (ba-dum tish)
And I've been training blindfolded with Jedi Dominion drones for years, my Big Money and Chapeling skills are formidable.
posted by JHarris at 2:53 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I've been training blindfolded with Jedi Dominion drones for years, my Big Money and Chapeling skills are formidable.
posted by JHarris at 2:53 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
yeah sure you just chapel away. I'll be over here three-piling while you're busy trashing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:55 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:55 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
It kinda bums me out that there is this attitude that if you find the Star Wars/Comic Book genre sort of stunted and not very interesting, that you're some sort of snobby asshole. There used to be adult oriented films which have been mostly overtaken by action/comic/superhero/sci-fi stuff. Mourning that does not make me a nay saying movie snob. Sorry.
posted by tunewell at 3:16 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by tunewell at 3:16 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
>It kinda bums me out that there is this attitude that if you find the Star Wars/Comic Book genre sort of stunted and not very interesting, that you're some sort of snobby asshole.
There is no such attitude here, there was this and then reaction to it. Nobody had a problem when I said I don't like comics at all because I didn't accuse people who did of being intellectually stunted.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:18 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is no such attitude here, there was this and then reaction to it. Nobody had a problem when I said I don't like comics at all because I didn't accuse people who did of being intellectually stunted.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:18 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I guess if I were to make a real attempt at an argument, I'd try to find evidence that right now (for values of "right now" equal to the timeframe wherein there's been so much entertainment around that it's actually possible to get jaded by it) is actually the time with, proportionately, the most non-pew-pew-pew entertainments ever. If you've only got like six stories and the only way you access them is through listening to this dude who's good with stories tell them to you, the mere mention of a guy going out and killing nine dudes, then coming back, then going out and killing nine dudes, then coming back... then going out and killing nine more dudes holy crap that is crazy is something with emotional heft to it. But because I've been watching Legolas decapitate so many orcs for so long, it doesn't seem as big as it used to anymore; instead of being like "holy crap that orc's head came clean off," I'm sort of quietly assessing the quality of the CGI and being bored by the lack of story.
Now that we're entertainment-supersaturated, killing dudes isn't big enough to represent our feelings. Nowadays, if you want a death to seem big enough, you've got to have the killer and the killed like sit down and have a conversation first.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:25 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now that we're entertainment-supersaturated, killing dudes isn't big enough to represent our feelings. Nowadays, if you want a death to seem big enough, you've got to have the killer and the killed like sit down and have a conversation first.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:25 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Slackermagee wrote For a moment, Jeff-o-matic, I though you were alluding to some Dismey purchase of Games Workshop that I wasn't aware of. And now I'll just sit here longing for something that will neber be...
Dammit, I wish I had any skill at song writing. I can totally see how awesome Horus' villain song would be in Disney's "The Horus Heresy". Start with him in his sanctum, surrounded by centuries of memorabilia from the Great Crusade, singing a bit mournfully about how he and the Emperor used to fight side by side but now he fights and the Emperor stays safe on Terra. Then he starts ranting, singing angerly about how the Imperial Truth is a lie, a sham, just a way to break down the old religions so the Emperor can be unimpeded in his plan to be worshiped like a god.
I see the chorus as three or four lines of "Like a god!" followed by some specific complaint or ironic/sarcastic comparison.
Finally, in the climax of the song, in his rage Horus smashes the things surrounding him, knocking down a portrait of the Emperor with the other junk just happening to fall onto the portrait in the shape of the Star of Chaos, as Horus stomps out to gather his Legions and attack Terra.
Possibly with faint Tzeentch symbols opening like eyes in the shadows and then vanishing before he can see them as he sings.
Something militant along the lines of Scar's Be Prepared song. Maybe starting with Horus injured and addressing Lorgar, and ending with him healed and addressing his Legion?
posted by sotonohito at 3:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Dammit, I wish I had any skill at song writing. I can totally see how awesome Horus' villain song would be in Disney's "The Horus Heresy". Start with him in his sanctum, surrounded by centuries of memorabilia from the Great Crusade, singing a bit mournfully about how he and the Emperor used to fight side by side but now he fights and the Emperor stays safe on Terra. Then he starts ranting, singing angerly about how the Imperial Truth is a lie, a sham, just a way to break down the old religions so the Emperor can be unimpeded in his plan to be worshiped like a god.
I see the chorus as three or four lines of "Like a god!" followed by some specific complaint or ironic/sarcastic comparison.
Finally, in the climax of the song, in his rage Horus smashes the things surrounding him, knocking down a portrait of the Emperor with the other junk just happening to fall onto the portrait in the shape of the Star of Chaos, as Horus stomps out to gather his Legions and attack Terra.
Possibly with faint Tzeentch symbols opening like eyes in the shadows and then vanishing before he can see them as he sings.
Something militant along the lines of Scar's Be Prepared song. Maybe starting with Horus injured and addressing Lorgar, and ending with him healed and addressing his Legion?
posted by sotonohito at 3:26 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the horrific violence in old cartoons like Tom and Jerry? Am I the only one who remembers Elmer Fudd, Daffy Duck, Tweety and Sylvester, the Road Runner? Running around trying to kill each other in unique, gruesome and entertaining ways was the whole point, wasn't it?
Here's a passage from Adorno in "The Culture Industry" from 1944:
"Cartoons were once exponents of fantasy as opposed to rationalism. They ensured that justice was done to the creatures and objects they electrified, by giving the maimed specimens a second life. All they do today is to confirm the victory of technological truth reason over truth. A few years ago they had a consistent plot which only broke up in the final moments in a crazy chase, and thus resembled the old slapstick comedy. Now, however, time relations have shifted. In the very first sequence a motive is stated so that in the course of the action destruction can get to work on it: with the audience in pursuit, the protagonist becomes the worthless object of general violence.
The quantity of organized of organized amusement changes into the quality of organized cruelty. The self-electors of the film industry (with whom it enjoys a close relationship) watch over the unfolding of the crime, which is as drawn-out as a hunt. Fun replaces the pleasure which the sight of an embrace would allegedly afford, and postpones satisfaction till the day of the pogrom.
In so far as cartoons do any more than accustom the senses to the new tempo, they hammer into every brain the old lesson that continuous friction, the breaking down of all individual resistance, is the condition of life in this society. Donald Duck in the cartoons and the unfortunate in real life get their thrashing so that the audience can learn to take their own punishment."
posted by doreur at 3:30 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Here's a passage from Adorno in "The Culture Industry" from 1944:
"Cartoons were once exponents of fantasy as opposed to rationalism. They ensured that justice was done to the creatures and objects they electrified, by giving the maimed specimens a second life. All they do today is to confirm the victory of technological truth reason over truth. A few years ago they had a consistent plot which only broke up in the final moments in a crazy chase, and thus resembled the old slapstick comedy. Now, however, time relations have shifted. In the very first sequence a motive is stated so that in the course of the action destruction can get to work on it: with the audience in pursuit, the protagonist becomes the worthless object of general violence.
The quantity of organized of organized amusement changes into the quality of organized cruelty. The self-electors of the film industry (with whom it enjoys a close relationship) watch over the unfolding of the crime, which is as drawn-out as a hunt. Fun replaces the pleasure which the sight of an embrace would allegedly afford, and postpones satisfaction till the day of the pogrom.
In so far as cartoons do any more than accustom the senses to the new tempo, they hammer into every brain the old lesson that continuous friction, the breaking down of all individual resistance, is the condition of life in this society. Donald Duck in the cartoons and the unfortunate in real life get their thrashing so that the audience can learn to take their own punishment."
posted by doreur at 3:30 PM on April 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
sotonohito: yes plz. that plz. i would like to see that movie now plz.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:30 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:30 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
As a 43-year-old (wait, 42, for now, star wars came out when I was 5) oldster with two kids who loved Star Wars as a kid (but not Steely Dan; never Steely Dan), I can honestly say that both Star Wars and Steely Dan are overrated. Star Wars might be the most overrated thing in the entire world (the cronut?).
Also, fun fantasy violence is completely escapable. I'm not going to shield my kids (it's their choice if they want to watch violent stuff), but inside my house, certain types of entertainment are acceptable. It's my decision here.
And actually, no, fun fantasy violence is not completely escapable. Even if you never show your kids one violent movie/episode, they're still gonna fight and still probably gonna shoot each other and the "bad guys." It happens.
I've long thought it's strange how violence is deemed acceptable for children, but heaven forbid that there's even a hint of sexuality.
I think about it everyday. Then look at advertising. It's the exact opposite.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:20 PM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also, fun fantasy violence is completely escapable. I'm not going to shield my kids (it's their choice if they want to watch violent stuff), but inside my house, certain types of entertainment are acceptable. It's my decision here.
And actually, no, fun fantasy violence is not completely escapable. Even if you never show your kids one violent movie/episode, they're still gonna fight and still probably gonna shoot each other and the "bad guys." It happens.
I've long thought it's strange how violence is deemed acceptable for children, but heaven forbid that there's even a hint of sexuality.
I think about it everyday. Then look at advertising. It's the exact opposite.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:20 PM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Shakespeare's characters collected no Triforce pieces.
OUR GENERATION WILL REMEDY THAT OVERSIGHT!
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:28 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
OUR GENERATION WILL REMEDY THAT OVERSIGHT!
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:28 PM on April 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Hopefully with Shakespeare's characters rendered as CGI pandas.
Search your feelings, you know it's time for a modernised reboot.
posted by Mezentian at 5:57 PM on April 24, 2015
Search your feelings, you know it's time for a modernised reboot.
posted by Mezentian at 5:57 PM on April 24, 2015
You guys are making it difficult to get good and rarr about any of this when you're all so entertaining and witty and fun and great about it. Pew-pew movies are srs bsns dammit.
You Can't Tip A Buick, while you're working on depleting the last Treasury half my deck will be Colonies, yo.
posted by JHarris at 6:06 PM on April 24, 2015
You Can't Tip A Buick, while you're working on depleting the last Treasury half my deck will be Colonies, yo.
posted by JHarris at 6:06 PM on April 24, 2015
I disagree. I think this is taking the status quo and trying to refit it onto people's psychology. The mere existence of popular non-hyperbolic media, for centuries, proves that.
I think it's also that people respond strongly to hyperstimulation, and once they're used to hyperstimulation, they don't always respond strongly to follow-up low key stuff.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:56 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it's also that people respond strongly to hyperstimulation, and once they're used to hyperstimulation, they don't always respond strongly to follow-up low key stuff.
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:56 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
wevs to your colonies man my gardens are like worth like eight each.
frankly I think at this point the only way to resolve this who's best at dominion question is with a good old fashioned rap battle. or maybe a Zoolander-style walk-off, I dunno.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:35 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
frankly I think at this point the only way to resolve this who's best at dominion question is with a good old fashioned rap battle. or maybe a Zoolander-style walk-off, I dunno.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:35 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
This. This is so true. As a geek with a lot of geek friends, i wish i could explain to them that while there are certain aspects to Pacific Rim that i like (Idris Elba, Mako Mori), when the giant robots are fighting, i just feel like taking a nap. When we see Avengers 2, all the parts i like will be at the beginning, and when they start fighting 10,000 Ultrons at the end, i'll just... want a nap.
I'm not jaded, i swear. Just thinking of the ending of Better Call Saul and the line "you're NOT a real lawyer!" still gives me the tingles.
posted by ELF Radio at 8:17 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm not jaded, i swear. Just thinking of the ending of Better Call Saul and the line "you're NOT a real lawyer!" still gives me the tingles.
posted by ELF Radio at 8:17 PM on April 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm still fixated on, "I just talked you down from a death sentence to six months probation...
I'M THE BEST LAWYER EVER!"
posted by Drinky Die at 8:21 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'M THE BEST LAWYER EVER!"
posted by Drinky Die at 8:21 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here are the "top movies" of 1974, well before Lucas and Spielberg transformed the industry.
Lots of schlock in the first 20 entries.
posted by Nevin at 9:06 PM on April 24, 2015
Lots of schlock in the first 20 entries.
posted by Nevin at 9:06 PM on April 24, 2015
Emmanuelle being the 20th most popular film (as voted by IMDB readers)?
Huh.
Well, that's unexpected.
posted by Mezentian at 9:13 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Huh.
Well, that's unexpected.
posted by Mezentian at 9:13 PM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thing about excessive cinematic violence is it just gets kind of dull and bland after a while. That's why I can't watch the Transformers-type CGI blast-a-thons. Same reason I can't appreciate fog-of-war-everything-going-on-at-once battle scenes like Lord of the Rings and Braveheart. Too much violence is just boring. There's no reason to care or pay attention. You have no stake in it. It's just dudes killing dudes. FOREVER.
Excessively violent movies don't desensitize you to real violence; they desensitize you to cinema.
posted by evil otto at 9:30 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Excessively violent movies don't desensitize you to real violence; they desensitize you to cinema.
posted by evil otto at 9:30 PM on April 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think it's also that people respond strongly to hyperstimulation, and once they're used to hyperstimulation, they don't always respond strongly to follow-up low key stuff.
I think there is even a psychological term for this, but as I am not a psychologist I don't remember what it is. I also don't think it's very useful to drag the Iliad into this. Context makes a difference. I mean, look at something like King of Sartar or the Guide to Glorantha. They are completely stuffed with gods and heroes, but it's still not DBZ or Hobbit 3 because the entire focus isn't on ZOMG SOOOO BADASS!!!!!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:18 PM on April 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think there is even a psychological term for this, but as I am not a psychologist I don't remember what it is. I also don't think it's very useful to drag the Iliad into this. Context makes a difference. I mean, look at something like King of Sartar or the Guide to Glorantha. They are completely stuffed with gods and heroes, but it's still not DBZ or Hobbit 3 because the entire focus isn't on ZOMG SOOOO BADASS!!!!!
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 5:18 PM on April 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Supernormal Stimulus, e.g. this photo. It's not something I've studied or thought about beyond skimming a fluffy essay.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:39 PM on April 25, 2015
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:39 PM on April 25, 2015
Solution: sell abnormally sized eggs at the movie theater snack bar.
posted by smidgen at 12:02 PM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by smidgen at 12:02 PM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will pay you good cash money for your enormous and presumably delicious eggs.
posted by maxsparber at 8:05 AM on April 27, 2015
posted by maxsparber at 8:05 AM on April 27, 2015
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posted by GuyZero at 8:41 AM on April 24, 2015 [6 favorites]