#DiversifyAgentCarter
May 11, 2015 5:02 PM   Subscribe

The Mission: Agent Carter, Diversity in Superhero TV, and a Colorful History - Joseph Phillip Illidge at Comic Book Resources
"In 2003, Marvel Comics published 'Truth: Red, White, and Black,' revealing the controversial story of the first Captain America being a Black man named Isaiah Bradley, not Steve Rogers, the popular Captain America of film.

Using the Tuskegee Experiments of the mid-20th Century in which Black men were experimented on under the guise of medical care and denied treatment for the disease they contracted, author Robert Morales and illustrator Kyle Baker reexamined 'Project: Super Solder.' Realizing that the United States government would use Black men as guinea pigs before experimenting on All-American boy Steve Rogers, the main creators behind "Truth: Red, White, and Black" crafted a story that used a comic book character to contribute to a larger narrative on the military industrial complex, the Black American male of the 20th Century, and how insidiously racial prejudice was intertwined with medical advancement."
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome (34 comments total) 17 users marked this as a favorite
 
[Agent Carter is also on FanFare.]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:03 PM on May 11, 2015


Tangentially related:

Truth Red White and Black was a damn solid book.
posted by The Whelk at 5:17 PM on May 11, 2015


Oddly enough, I just read Truth: Red, White, and Black. I liked the story a lot but the art really didn't work for me with that story; I think Baker's tendency towards caricature works with slapstick much better than drama.

I'd be really curious what it would have looked like drawn by Jamal Igle....
posted by johnofjack at 5:34 PM on May 11, 2015


For a bit more context, #DiversifyAgentCarter was created by the amazing Mikki Kendall.
posted by kmz at 5:44 PM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


Also, Rachel Edidin just wrote an article talking about diversity and Agent Carter in Playboy.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:50 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


I like Agent Carter a lot but I kind of think the casting is so white that it's pretty unrealistic as a representation of New York in its time period; even if you are expecting some neighborhood segregation it seems weird that they never actually go anywhere where white people aren't the majority.

I'm really psyched about Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, though.
posted by NoraReed at 6:37 PM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm really curious as to how so much activism came to surround comics, and comic-based media so quickly. It really seems to be like a consistent hotspot, and it's really only been over the past year or so too.
posted by emptythought at 6:53 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think it just didn't really spiral this much into the public eye until recently, especially with GamerGate attaching itself to the Batgirl cover. I know I've been reading stuff about gender and Marvel stuff in particular since at least the first Avengers movie.
posted by NoraReed at 6:54 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, it's not so much a new subject as newly receiving mainstream traction -- I can remember these discussions going on in the female-dominated spaces of comics-fandom (lj, girl-wonder.org -- where I briefly knew Rachel Edidin, actually; she always had interesting things to say and I'm always chuffed to see her name pop up again) since at least the early 2000s, and I doubt it was new then.

Aside from Isaiah, one character I'd like to see pop up is Jimmy Woo, an FBI and later SHIELD agent who was Marvel's first Asian American lead (on a technicality, since he actually predates Marvel Comics itself as we know it now). Sure, he debuted in 1956, but I don't think the timeline fudging is a huge deal.
posted by bettafish at 7:17 PM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]


Including the Isaiah Bradley plot would also open up (another) nice pathway to Young Avengers, which I want. A lot.
posted by NoraReed at 7:25 PM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


bettafish, you just described one of my fantasy scenarios for the second season of "Agent Carter," in which the series time-jumps far enough into the 1950s for Carter to work with Jimmy Woo and the Agents of Atlas. While their origin story in the comics supposedly happens in 1958, seems like Marvel could adjust that for TV if they wanted to.
posted by Nat "King" Cole Porter Wagoner at 7:29 PM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


FTA: Clearly, despite the fact that various parties consider "racebending" and ethnic diversity in casting as caving in, or pandering, to the vocal progressives

Waitwaitwaitwait. The article seems to fundamentally misunderstand the concept of racebending. It was actually coined to describe the travesty of M. Night Shyamalan's The Last Airbender, which turned an amazing casting opportunity for chronically-underrepresented/underseen Asian actors into a showcase for primarily white and non-Asian performers.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:26 PM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


Interesting. For those who do diverse fiction, they get ignored too many times to count, but those vehicles that don't, they get an audience, lavish media attention, and all the perks despite the underlying offensive shortcomings.

If you want diversity, don't just reach for the easy: look for those smaller, lesser known works: they are as good and better than the ones that miss the mark, but have the support behind them.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 8:36 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


If you want diversity, don't just reach for the easy: look for those smaller, lesser known works: they are as good and better than the ones that miss the mark, but have the support behind them.

cool, start a new thread about them and I'll read with interest, but this one is about Agent Carter.
posted by kagredon at 9:23 PM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


If you want diversity, don't just reach for the easy: look for those smaller, lesser known works: they are as good and better than the ones that miss the mark, but have the support behind them.

Pretty sure we can do both.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:29 PM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


Strange Interlude, in fandom parlance racebending can now be used in a positive or negative sense.
posted by bettafish at 2:47 AM on May 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


cool, start a new thread about them and I'll read with interest, but this one is about Agent Carter.

No, this thread is more than just about a single program: this thread is about the bigger trend of mainstream fictional offerings that miss the mark as audiences both prop it up and then begin to complain about it as if it is the only game in town.

Pretty sure we can do both

I am not as optimistic about those abilities as you are. I am willing to go as far as to say you cannot. Knee-slapping hijinks galore when people tell me how they love progressive fiction, yet lo and behold, they only like the ones that sort of, kind of do it just a little, meaning they don't really.

The audience wants a strong female character so long as it is created and written by the same white men who still churn out sexist and white bread dreck. No, you can't.

I think shows such as this one are made half-baked for a reason: so people can watch reactionary programming with comfort and then go out and complain how it's not doing a good enough job.

As I said, there is a simple solution: watch/read something that already foots that bill by creators who do it naturally from the get-go and not as an afterthought after millions of people have to point out the obvious.

The campaign is akin to pretending you are a vegetarian, yet always finding yourself in carnivorous restaurants and griping when there are places that fit the bill but you don't go there because it requires taking five more steps.

Please reserve that first-world sophistry for someone who is a little more naive.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 4:27 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


one of my fantasy scenarios for the second season of "Agent Carter,"

Mine is where Dottie and I take a cross-country roadtrip to smash the patriarchy together. This will be a crossover season guest starring Helena from Orphan Black. The three of us would be thrilled to have a more diverse cast; there's space in the car for patriarchy-smashing badasses from all races!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:23 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


As a follow-up on the link that kmz posted, a list of pre-existing Marvel Universe POC characters appropriate to the time and genre of Agent Carter, including some already listed in this thread.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:28 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


there's space in the car for patriarchy-smashing badasses from all races!

But what about Helena's sistrahs?

Why do you hate family?
posted by Mezentian at 5:33 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


As a follow-up on the link that kmz posted, a list of pre-existing Marvel Universe POC characters appropriate to the time and genre of Agent Carter, including some already listed in this thread.

A few are problematic.
The Invaders character require... the Invaders (which I would love to see... but didn't Gwenny Lou Subuki have a bad back story, or am I mis-remembering and confusing her with the Japanese girl from the recent comic?).

I can see Isaiah Bradley and Jimmy Woo working really well, and I really, really want an Agents Of Atlas miniseries now.
posted by Mezentian at 5:36 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


But what about Helena's sistrahs?

This is complicated by the fact that the next season of Orphan Black is about Cosima and me falling in love and moving in together and Helena being our wacky roommate. I'm keeping my cross-country-patriarchy-smashing roadtrip separate from my being-in-love-with-a-brilliant-scientist home life.

I will stop talking about Orphan Black in the Agent Carter thread now.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:51 AM on May 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


A few are problematic.

Eh, we can figure out a not problematic way of writing them. If someone can figure that out for the Mandarin of all things, they can figure it out for someone on Agent Carter.

The audience wants a strong female character so long as it is created and written by the same white men who still churn out sexist and white bread dreck. No, you can't.

A good way of making sure that stuff that caters to non-white men stays marginal is eschewing anything that is popular as not good enough. We can do both, and we need to do both if there's any hope of lasting change.

Not to mention the fact that the showrunner for Agent Carter is a woman.

Finding stuff that's not problematic in any way turns into a losing argument. It's far better to support what you like, but still be vocal about the ways it could be improved. Seek out new voices in media and support them, yes, but a complete separatist action just creates a ghetto.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:28 AM on May 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Speaking of improving representation in superhero TV, Daredevil has a diversity problem as well as a woman problem. Are there any calls like this for Netflix to up their game? I personally found Daredevil problematic on so many levels that I won't be watching season two but surely they can do better than have 3/4 of the good guys be blond, while killing off the only black guy who had a significant role.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:08 AM on May 12, 2015


I've been hearing calls to hire more PoC and women on Daredevil (and reviews of Daredevil complaining about the way the plot treated women and PoC), but I also follow a lot of social media that really likes talking about representation in nerd stuff, so I don't know how much mainstream press they're getting.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:31 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I personally found Daredevil problematic on so many levels that I won't be watching season two
Squeak Attack

Could you elaborate?
posted by Sangermaine at 7:52 AM on May 12, 2015


I don't want to derail here too much. I found the basic theme that beating the mother-loving shit out of people is super-heroic as long as you're Matt Murdoch, but very very bad if you are anyone else, to be ethically offensive. The Sadie Doyle piece on Age of Ultron hits on that where she says that Marvel movies believe that punching is better than talking. I also commented here in Fanfare with more thoughts, though I didn't really cover the representation problem there.
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:03 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


The campaign is akin to pretending you are a vegetarian, yet always finding yourself in carnivorous restaurants and griping when there are places that fit the bill but you don't go there because it requires taking five more steps.

Please reserve that first-world sophistry for someone who is a little more naive.


Yeah, I kind of thought you'd say that. Because it was less about you actually wanting to point us to and support great lesser-known works with representation and more about telling us we're doing it wrong.

Marginalized people push for representation in existing mainstream works: "Oh, well you can't just expect the world to change for you. You should really make your own art! You don't need those big-budgets and widespread market availability."

Marginalized people make independent works with representation: *crickets*. Or worse, "Yeah, it's great, but you can't expect a mainstream market to be interested in this niche stuff."

I am just sick of being told that I have the wrong priorities no matter what I do. First-world sophistry, indeed.

Anyway, Tony Leung for Jimmy Woo. Think about it. It would be so great. It would be the greatest.
posted by kagredon at 9:09 AM on May 12, 2015 [8 favorites]


As I said, there is a simple solution: watch/read something that already foots that bill by creators who do it naturally from the get-go

Alexandra Kitty, I'm curious what you would suggest watching? I'm not really a movie person, but I'm interested what TV you'd recommend.
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:15 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


as far as genre TV goes, the first season of Sleepy Hollow is both the best 1st season of SFF/horror that's been on network TV since Firefly and has a diverse main cast. The second season is...well, it's an exercise in lowered expectations. We'll see if the third course-corrects.

The Flash also deserves special mention here. It's got a white dude at the center, but there's a transracial adoption situation (with! a warm and nurturing! single black father! played by Jesse L Martin!), there've been two major non-white love interests so far (three if you count Cisco AND I DO.) I've got some issues with the storylines the Wests have been handed, but that's more to do with hitting some sour notes on the love-interest angle. The casting of minor and guest roles also seems to do better with representation than a lot of shows do; this one of the few representations of what's supposed to be a major cosmopolitan U.S. city that actually seems to have a believable amount of ethnic diversity evident across various walks of life, which is pretty depressing when you think about it.
posted by kagredon at 11:01 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, definite shout-out Sleepy Hollow for having an amazing woman of colour as the lead and not requiring her to fawn over her tall handsome British sidekick (sorry, I totally think Abbie's in charge here). There is a lot more diversity there than in most tv shows--and god, yes, I hope the 3rd season course corrects, it was so disappointing.
posted by Kitteh at 11:18 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ichabod is definitely the one who is fawning in that pair and really who can blame him.
posted by kagredon at 11:20 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I loved the first season of Sleepy Hollow. Loved it so much. But I dropped the second season about six episodes in because of how profoundly disappointing it was. Whether that was the fault of the network or the show-runner, they seems pretty determined to throw out everything I'd liked about it.

I gave The Flash about 10 episodes but I found it dull. I couldn't latch onto the characters or the plots. Really only enjoyed it when Jesse L. Martin was on-screen.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:13 PM on May 12, 2015


I'm really excited about comics, right now -- and as someone who used to write about diversity in comics, I have some theories about why comics, and comic-related media, are talking diversity in ways that seem to outstrip other media that aren't comics-derived.

Part of that, honestly, is that comics really broke into the mainstream -- first as manga/anime to some extent, in parallel to some extent with the rise of more respected comic-based movies that didn't shy from, or joke about, their comic origins. That brought in a lot of new fans -- who stayed in a parallel world from the Marvel/DC "fanboy" axis for years...

...until, I think, digital. Webcomics allowed more, and more diverse voices. Buying comics for a tablet or phone made comics actually available to (again) a more diverse population, one primed as comic universes splashed onto the big screen.

And those fans have led first Marvel (who saw the diversity in who was not just watching, but writing about, their on-screen characters on Tumblr and many, many other places) and (too damn slowly in comparison) DC to jump on an already-running bandwagon of making and advertising comics for more than just fanboys, and watching them sell in the ways we told these companies, decades ago, they would. And other comic companies are following -- (personal note: there's a IRENE ADLER/DEJAH THORIS crossover coming! This has me amazingly excited as a huge fan of the former, and really wanting to read an interesting/non-exploitative version of the latter for years, now).

They've tried before, but in small "boutique" lines that generally got no real push, and weren't integrated into the main line universes. That, on top of the struggle to get anyone into comic shops, made for real friction until they could get out from under that by going digital -- just as manga avoided comic shops by selling directly to bookstores.

Those digital buyers, plus the "TV/movie" fans, are tech-savvy, and able to collect together and fight for seeing more of what they like -- not just "blank slate" diversity, but characters that are interesting and rich and showcase a huge array of human existence. And those fans -- not old fogeys like me -- are the ones who are really driving this sea change.

And that drive occurs also because comics is a small, small world with a lot of back and forth between fans and pros. That gives fans a lot of leverage -- you can go to a con and actually engage a writer of a comic on their story and character choices! And since there is (depending on the situation) some level of comic-to-TV/movie connection, a vocal set of fans have, and still can, have a "disproportionate" impact on comic-based media over years.

Which is pretty much how we got here, with a long, long road to go.

If you muddled through all this, thanks for reading.
posted by Asim at 4:09 PM on May 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


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