"I would rather see the many other women's stories I haven't seen"
May 20, 2015 4:45 AM Subscribe
To be honest, I can't think of another Avenger whose story Natasha could have swapped with who wouldn't, in some way, raise questions of whether the story was influenced by gender stereotypes. If she had Tony's story, she'd be the one who messed up and wouldn't listen, who created the need for a rescue. If she had Cap's story, she'd be the one who tries to keep everyone from being vulgar – the behavior cop. If she had the Hulk's story, she'd be the one whose superpower is being carried away by her uncontrollable emotions. If she had Thor's story, she'd be the one who doesn't have very much to do and is omitted from a large stretch of the movie. If she had Hawkeye's story, she'd be the one who just wanted to go home and be with the kids.Any of these things could look like a stereotype. Linda Holmes (who else?) looks at the criticism of Joss Whedon for the background he gave Black Widow in the latest Avengers movie and argues that it's not the specific role Black Widow plays, it's the scarcity of meaningful, different female characters in Hollywood blockbusters that's the problem.
[This post about the plot and characters in Avengers: Age Of Ultron discusses the plot and characters in Avengers: Age Of Ultron.]If nothing else, that's the best wry spoiler alert I've ever seen.
posted by Etrigan at 5:04 AM on May 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
This seems right to me, but I still don't think it was necessary for her sterility to be such a big emotional deal. It could have just as easily been her murdering people and becoming a killer.
The echoes of Melinda May's big reveal around fertility and "the cavalry" make me think this was a deliberate and stupid choice.
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:08 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
The echoes of Melinda May's big reveal around fertility and "the cavalry" make me think this was a deliberate and stupid choice.
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:08 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Perhaps. But Marvel's Agents of Shield has been killing it female characters.
Which backs Holmes' argument that it is a scarcity problem. There are many more central female characters in Agents of Shield than there are in the MCU's cinematic releases.
posted by jonnyploy at 5:09 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Which backs Holmes' argument that it is a scarcity problem. There are many more central female characters in Agents of Shield than there are in the MCU's cinematic releases.
posted by jonnyploy at 5:09 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Perhaps. But Marvel's Agents of Shield has been killing it female characters.
Accent on the killing.
posted by davros42 at 5:17 AM on May 20, 2015
Accent on the killing.
posted by davros42 at 5:17 AM on May 20, 2015
I don't think this holds up in reverse though. If infertility was the Thor or the Hulk's greatest fear or regret, people would scratch their heads. It isn't that guys can't be sad about that, but it takes more that 5 seconds of character development to establish that for a man, while that is suppose to reflexively make sense to us when it is a female character.
posted by Garm at 5:39 AM on May 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by Garm at 5:39 AM on May 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
I absolutely agree that scarcity has a big impact on how we perceive female characters. But the director is still responsible for how the film frames and comments upon the actions of those characters. The film wants you to root for Natasha getting together with Bruce. But it doesn't weigh the reasons she shouldn't. It puts out a paper thin explanation of "we're both damaged and so we should be together because we understand each other" without digging any deeper like maybe "hey that's a super bad reason to enter into a relationship and is an attempt to hide from my own obviously unresolved issues." So she is just left looking like she's pining after him and being two-dimensional the whole movie without doing any of the emotional heavy lifting Bruce is allowed with his fear of hurting anyone he's close to.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:40 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:40 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
These, for me, are scarcity problems. They are problems because there are so few opportunities to show women in action blockbusters that I tend to crave something very much capable of moving discussions of what those portrayals can be like forward.
It is more than scarcity. It is the framework of storytelling, which in Hollywood, is strictly patriarchal and the lens is always masculine, even when the lead character is a woman. It is the issue I have with the show Agent Carter: the storytelling has nothing to do with being female.
Change the filter and the structure and we can explore the significance of the Black Widow's background without it being sexist because she'd be allowed to break down the barriers of what life had imposed on her and you would have fodder for a franchise where she is the lead character.
The interpretation is how men see women, not how women or are, or heaven forbid, see themselves -- how they develop or grow.
It is not the scarcity of female characters, but a scarcity of female screenwriters, directors, and producers being allowed to break the old confines with full and enthusiastic support.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 5:45 AM on May 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
It is more than scarcity. It is the framework of storytelling, which in Hollywood, is strictly patriarchal and the lens is always masculine, even when the lead character is a woman. It is the issue I have with the show Agent Carter: the storytelling has nothing to do with being female.
Change the filter and the structure and we can explore the significance of the Black Widow's background without it being sexist because she'd be allowed to break down the barriers of what life had imposed on her and you would have fodder for a franchise where she is the lead character.
The interpretation is how men see women, not how women or are, or heaven forbid, see themselves -- how they develop or grow.
It is not the scarcity of female characters, but a scarcity of female screenwriters, directors, and producers being allowed to break the old confines with full and enthusiastic support.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 5:45 AM on May 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
Perhaps. But Marvel's Agents of Shield has been killing it female characters.
Really? With the exception of Jemma none have much complexity. You could swap a male character in there without even needing to change the dialog or plot lines. Fitz is a more complex female character than Skye, May, or Bobbie.
I thought Black Widow's storyline was problematic because she got like 3 minutes of screen time where she wasn't hitting something and every single new element came without warning. She's in love with Banner? I guess. She wants to run away from the Avengers? I guess. She wants a baby? I guess. There was no foreshadowing or development at all. Here's the analysis of the movie I agreed with: Age of Robots: How Marvel Is Killing the Popcorn Movie
posted by cjorgensen at 5:46 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Really? With the exception of Jemma none have much complexity. You could swap a male character in there without even needing to change the dialog or plot lines. Fitz is a more complex female character than Skye, May, or Bobbie.
I thought Black Widow's storyline was problematic because she got like 3 minutes of screen time where she wasn't hitting something and every single new element came without warning. She's in love with Banner? I guess. She wants to run away from the Avengers? I guess. She wants a baby? I guess. There was no foreshadowing or development at all. Here's the analysis of the movie I agreed with: Age of Robots: How Marvel Is Killing the Popcorn Movie
posted by cjorgensen at 5:46 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I still don't think it was necessary for her sterility to be such a big emotional deal. It could have just as easily been her murdering people and becoming a killer.
I'm always interested that people think that it was about the sterility. She only talks about it because Banner is talking to her about not being able to have children with her - and clearly regrets that this is a path in life that is closed to him. I can't imagine that she would have offered it otherwise.
It was very clear to me from the get-go that what that scene is about is a) her being a "manufactured" "monster" just exactly like Banner is - that, like him, she had no control about what happened to her, like him, the number of paths open to her were reduced through actions that she could not control (and, of course, in a lot of ways, Banner actually had more control over his destiny than she did, because he did the basically created the Hulk (of course, unknowingly) himself).
The red room speech is about losing control over the available choices in ones life - losing control of your destiny and having to make the best of things anyhow. I'm continually surprised that people see it any other way.
posted by anastasiav at 5:48 AM on May 20, 2015 [36 favorites]
I'm always interested that people think that it was about the sterility. She only talks about it because Banner is talking to her about not being able to have children with her - and clearly regrets that this is a path in life that is closed to him. I can't imagine that she would have offered it otherwise.
It was very clear to me from the get-go that what that scene is about is a) her being a "manufactured" "monster" just exactly like Banner is - that, like him, she had no control about what happened to her, like him, the number of paths open to her were reduced through actions that she could not control (and, of course, in a lot of ways, Banner actually had more control over his destiny than she did, because he did the basically created the Hulk (of course, unknowingly) himself).
The red room speech is about losing control over the available choices in ones life - losing control of your destiny and having to make the best of things anyhow. I'm continually surprised that people see it any other way.
posted by anastasiav at 5:48 AM on May 20, 2015 [36 favorites]
The red room speech is about losing control over the available choices in ones life
I haven't seen the movie, so this is exactly what I was wondering. Isn't having choices about your body forcibly taken away from you, like, a pretty traumatic thing than a man would be just as upset about as a woman?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:08 AM on May 20, 2015
I haven't seen the movie, so this is exactly what I was wondering. Isn't having choices about your body forcibly taken away from you, like, a pretty traumatic thing than a man would be just as upset about as a woman?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:08 AM on May 20, 2015
I'm continually surprised that people see it any other way.
Isn't that kind of your fault? I mean, I can understand your interpretation, but you can't understand mine--and it's an interpretation shared by many, so it seems like you could at least try.
Having two badass women characters get an origin story rooted in fertility in quick succession starts to make it look like a trend. And these are standard tropes: the Madonna/Whore dichotomy becomes a Madonna/Warrior dichotomy after the second wave of feminism becomes more sex positive.
Show me a badass mother. Show me a badass warrior who is completely unfazed by her non-motherhood. But don't force every female hero fit into that same "work-life balance is impossible" cookie cutter because it's making it frustrating for my actual wife who is an actual professional woman juggling those issues to continue as a fan. And that ruins it for me.
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:14 AM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
Isn't that kind of your fault? I mean, I can understand your interpretation, but you can't understand mine--and it's an interpretation shared by many, so it seems like you could at least try.
Having two badass women characters get an origin story rooted in fertility in quick succession starts to make it look like a trend. And these are standard tropes: the Madonna/Whore dichotomy becomes a Madonna/Warrior dichotomy after the second wave of feminism becomes more sex positive.
Show me a badass mother. Show me a badass warrior who is completely unfazed by her non-motherhood. But don't force every female hero fit into that same "work-life balance is impossible" cookie cutter because it's making it frustrating for my actual wife who is an actual professional woman juggling those issues to continue as a fan. And that ruins it for me.
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:14 AM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
One of the reviews of Mad Max said that individually, many of the female characters did things that made her eyes roll, but because there were other female characters who were at the same time engaged in non-eye-rolly behavior, she could say, well, it's just that character.
Scarcity may not be the only problem, but lack of scarcity is a proven solution to some of them.
posted by maxsparber at 6:19 AM on May 20, 2015 [25 favorites]
Scarcity may not be the only problem, but lack of scarcity is a proven solution to some of them.
posted by maxsparber at 6:19 AM on May 20, 2015 [25 favorites]
Mod note: Comment deleted. Huron, take a day off, and do not troll the site in the future.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:20 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:20 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I haven't seen the movie, but it sounds like the fact that her inability to have children comes from a real world operation to her female body makes that scene read differently, and worse, than if she'd simply said that she couldn't have children for non-womb-related reasons, e.g. her children would be walking targets of retribution and she could never abide that.
The scarcity issue is tricky. It can turn some forms of "problematization" into a double-edged sword. The scarcity itself is the proximate cause of this, but nonetheless, criticism must always be seen critically. The Strong Female Character, in the pejorative sense of a Hot Babe who Kicks Ass and Is Always The Smartest and who Has No Character Flaws, is one kind of negative result of trying to make every woman's role into something "perfect". The best roles, heroic or otherwise, are rife with flaws, or other human limitations. For example, Indiana Jones fears snakes, makes tons of mistakes, named himself after his dog, and, at key moments, needs to be saved himself.
I'm not speaking to A:AOU, because I haven't seen it and the stuff in question sounds genuinely dumb.
I'm just saying that it is generally difficult to balance representation and strong writing-as-writing.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:24 AM on May 20, 2015
The scarcity issue is tricky. It can turn some forms of "problematization" into a double-edged sword. The scarcity itself is the proximate cause of this, but nonetheless, criticism must always be seen critically. The Strong Female Character, in the pejorative sense of a Hot Babe who Kicks Ass and Is Always The Smartest and who Has No Character Flaws, is one kind of negative result of trying to make every woman's role into something "perfect". The best roles, heroic or otherwise, are rife with flaws, or other human limitations. For example, Indiana Jones fears snakes, makes tons of mistakes, named himself after his dog, and, at key moments, needs to be saved himself.
I'm not speaking to A:AOU, because I haven't seen it and the stuff in question sounds genuinely dumb.
I'm just saying that it is generally difficult to balance representation and strong writing-as-writing.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:24 AM on May 20, 2015
I don't think anyone is saying it isn't traumatic. It's that, without a bigger cast of female characters, making your one primary female character's issues all about fertility and motherhood feels a little insulting. One female character can't be everything to everyone and really shouldn't have to be. And considering the Scarlet Witch's history of going crazy and warping reality (also sometimes due to motherhood issues!) I'm not holding out hope for her to be the solid, complex female character that I really want her to be. I'm giving it 50/50 odds that she's more plot device than character in the future. I do agree that, while I would love a Black Widow movie, it would just pin more weight of expectations on a single character. Captain Marvel can't get here soon enough.
posted by almostmanda at 6:26 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 6:26 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
On a related tangent, as far as pop culture stuff goes, Veronica Mars and Leslie Knope are my two go-to examples of awesome women who are just flawed/human enough to leaven their characters.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:31 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:31 AM on May 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Really? With the exception of Jemma none have much complexity. You could swap a male character in there without even needing to change the dialog or plot lines. Fitz is a more complex female character than Skye, May, or Bobbie.
I just don't even know what to do with this statement. Raina, Jaiying, Kara PLUS Skye, May and Bobbie all struck me as different women with various complexities and wide range of personalities.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I just don't even know what to do with this statement. Raina, Jaiying, Kara PLUS Skye, May and Bobbie all struck me as different women with various complexities and wide range of personalities.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
As anastasiav said, I don't know why people are reading the scene in question as Natasha's issues being all about fertility and motherhood. She only mentioned her sterilization in response to Bruce raising the issue that he would be unable to have kids. It's not her main concern any more than it is his. Her description of herself as a "monster" has nothing to do with being infertile - it has to do with being raised to be a cold-blooded assassin. That's the life she's wanting to get away from.
posted by tdismukes at 6:52 AM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by tdismukes at 6:52 AM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
She only mentioned her sterilization in response to Bruce raising the issue that he would be unable to have kids.
But why is it an issue at this point at ALL? She's trying to get him to go out with her. Most people don't go, "hey, let's date" to "and plan our wedding and name our kids" all on the same day. They don't even know if they can have a relationship.
So for Joss* (via Bruce) to jump from "Let's try this thing!" to "But no baaaaaaaaaaabiessssssss!" says something fundamental about Natasha-- to wit, she can only be interested in a relationship that is going to go long-term and turn into a domestic situation, period. Ladies, they be wanting to settle down, amirite?
Kids didn't have to come up in that conversation at all, because it was not, in fact, a topic of that conversation. It was injected into the conversation and then, when Bruce is like, "no babies!" she doesn't even get a chance to say, "Who said I wanted kids?" or "Why are we even talking about kids?" They could have had a conversation about being man-made monsters without ever going to the well of chillenz... but they didn't.
* And that is exactly the way I think of it. I'm a screenwriter. I frame situations in ways that make sense to me. Joss is also a screenwriter. This scene made sense to him in this way. Therefore, he is responsible for the content and metacontent of it-- not imaginary Bruce Banner or imaginary Natasha Romanov.
posted by headspace at 7:06 AM on May 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
But why is it an issue at this point at ALL? She's trying to get him to go out with her. Most people don't go, "hey, let's date" to "and plan our wedding and name our kids" all on the same day. They don't even know if they can have a relationship.
So for Joss* (via Bruce) to jump from "Let's try this thing!" to "But no baaaaaaaaaaabiessssssss!" says something fundamental about Natasha-- to wit, she can only be interested in a relationship that is going to go long-term and turn into a domestic situation, period. Ladies, they be wanting to settle down, amirite?
Kids didn't have to come up in that conversation at all, because it was not, in fact, a topic of that conversation. It was injected into the conversation and then, when Bruce is like, "no babies!" she doesn't even get a chance to say, "Who said I wanted kids?" or "Why are we even talking about kids?" They could have had a conversation about being man-made monsters without ever going to the well of chillenz... but they didn't.
* And that is exactly the way I think of it. I'm a screenwriter. I frame situations in ways that make sense to me. Joss is also a screenwriter. This scene made sense to him in this way. Therefore, he is responsible for the content and metacontent of it-- not imaginary Bruce Banner or imaginary Natasha Romanov.
posted by headspace at 7:06 AM on May 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
Raina, Jaiying, Kara PLUS Skye, May and Bobbie all struck me as different women with various complexities and wide range of personalities.
I'll give you Raina before her transformation, but after she was reduced to has she changed to good or not? Jaiying is about as 2D as you get. She was a Bond villain pretending to not be evil. I'm not sure what you mean by "Kara PLUS Skye." That the two together make a decent character? Their interactions give them complexity? I never liked the Skye character from the get go, so that may be my damage, but I see her as more of a human McGuffin than anything. May, Mac, Bobbie, and any of the other muscle on the show are completely swappable.
I'm not trying to be contentious. I don't think this is a problem with the gender, so much as the genre. I don't see a lot of complexity on the male side either.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:21 AM on May 20, 2015
I'll give you Raina before her transformation, but after she was reduced to has she changed to good or not? Jaiying is about as 2D as you get. She was a Bond villain pretending to not be evil. I'm not sure what you mean by "Kara PLUS Skye." That the two together make a decent character? Their interactions give them complexity? I never liked the Skye character from the get go, so that may be my damage, but I see her as more of a human McGuffin than anything. May, Mac, Bobbie, and any of the other muscle on the show are completely swappable.
I'm not trying to be contentious. I don't think this is a problem with the gender, so much as the genre. I don't see a lot of complexity on the male side either.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:21 AM on May 20, 2015
I agree that its a scarcity problem. An Avengers with five female super fighters and one male super fighter would be inconceivable to many people. But try conceiving it. It could be awesome. (Not intending to use 'conceive' in a reproductive sense here.)
posted by puddledork at 7:21 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by puddledork at 7:21 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
But why is it an issue at this point at ALL?
Because they're soaking in it? Because Banner has suddenly discovered that cold-blooded killer Hawkeye has a secret "normal" life with a wife and family? Because they are standing in a bedroom filled with children's things? Because that kind of life - a house, a wife, a family unit - is probably what Banner dreamed of for himself before "the other guy" appeared on the scene and led him to eschew most human contact?
Yes, she's trying to get him to go out with her. One of his arguments is "I can't live a normal life, the kind of normal life that lots of people [of both genders, clearly, since he's talking about his own losses too] want" and she's trying to negate that objection by saying "I don't care that you can't have those things because I can't have those things either."
She doesn't say "Who said I wanted kids?" because its never even been an option for her. She never had the choice to want them or not want them. She, like him, was denied the choice to control her own destiny.
anotherpanacea: "Isn't that kind of your fault? I mean, I can understand your interpretation, but you can't understand mine--and it's an interpretation shared by many, so it seems like you could at least try."
That's a little uncharitable. I never said I don't understand it, I said I was surprised that's the first place people go. Because the actual scene feels much more nuanced than that. To focus exclusively on what she says about her own fertility really oversimplifies the text of the scene.
I agree that it would be lovely to have more female superheroes to choose from. Badass mom superhero - great, bring it on. But being a superhero is almost always about living with the losses in your life - and, often, being driven by the pain from those losses. Banner and Romanov both lost their ability to choose their own destiny. This ties them together in a way that makes them very separate from the other members of the team, who largely control their own destinies to a very specific degree.
posted by anastasiav at 7:27 AM on May 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
Because they're soaking in it? Because Banner has suddenly discovered that cold-blooded killer Hawkeye has a secret "normal" life with a wife and family? Because they are standing in a bedroom filled with children's things? Because that kind of life - a house, a wife, a family unit - is probably what Banner dreamed of for himself before "the other guy" appeared on the scene and led him to eschew most human contact?
Yes, she's trying to get him to go out with her. One of his arguments is "I can't live a normal life, the kind of normal life that lots of people [of both genders, clearly, since he's talking about his own losses too] want" and she's trying to negate that objection by saying "I don't care that you can't have those things because I can't have those things either."
She doesn't say "Who said I wanted kids?" because its never even been an option for her. She never had the choice to want them or not want them. She, like him, was denied the choice to control her own destiny.
anotherpanacea: "Isn't that kind of your fault? I mean, I can understand your interpretation, but you can't understand mine--and it's an interpretation shared by many, so it seems like you could at least try."
That's a little uncharitable. I never said I don't understand it, I said I was surprised that's the first place people go. Because the actual scene feels much more nuanced than that. To focus exclusively on what she says about her own fertility really oversimplifies the text of the scene.
I agree that it would be lovely to have more female superheroes to choose from. Badass mom superhero - great, bring it on. But being a superhero is almost always about living with the losses in your life - and, often, being driven by the pain from those losses. Banner and Romanov both lost their ability to choose their own destiny. This ties them together in a way that makes them very separate from the other members of the team, who largely control their own destinies to a very specific degree.
posted by anastasiav at 7:27 AM on May 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
To focus exclusively on what she says about her own fertility really oversimplifies the text of the scene.
I've been looking for the exact dialogue and haven't been able to find it, but she tells the story about how the red room sterilized her to make sure she wouldn't have any outside ties and then says that she's a monster. Thinking those two are connected aren't an oversimplification, it's the way the dialogue was constructed.
I personally think that the scene was badly written and that it wasn't the original intention, but there were so many other ways that scene could have gone that could have put the focus on something besides her sterility.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:48 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've been looking for the exact dialogue and haven't been able to find it, but she tells the story about how the red room sterilized her to make sure she wouldn't have any outside ties and then says that she's a monster. Thinking those two are connected aren't an oversimplification, it's the way the dialogue was constructed.
I personally think that the scene was badly written and that it wasn't the original intention, but there were so many other ways that scene could have gone that could have put the focus on something besides her sterility.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:48 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you want to see it done better watch Mad Max Fury Road.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 7:49 AM on May 20, 2015
posted by WalkerWestridge at 7:49 AM on May 20, 2015
headspace said it better than I can, but you're treating this like it's real life rather than a scene written by an author. The staging, the dialogue, the narrative and character decisions are all choices made by a writer: they're not given, they're created. There's certainly an internal logic to them, and if a Banner the real person said what he said to Romanov the real person, her response would be reasonable and comforting. But as a story choice it's different.
Basically Whedon made a choice to foreground fertility, not just for Romanov but for May in Shield. If you look at the flashback confusion scene, there are several depictions of the Red Room that are about forcing Romanov to kill an innocent man, but she doesn't dwelll on that in her discussion with Banner. Instead, she dwells on and identifies with the sterilization process and draws an explicit connection between loss of motherhood and monsterhood.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:50 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Basically Whedon made a choice to foreground fertility, not just for Romanov but for May in Shield. If you look at the flashback confusion scene, there are several depictions of the Red Room that are about forcing Romanov to kill an innocent man, but she doesn't dwelll on that in her discussion with Banner. Instead, she dwells on and identifies with the sterilization process and draws an explicit connection between loss of motherhood and monsterhood.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:50 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't watch Shield, so I can't comment on that.
For me, the key is that she says, at the very end, "so I would never care about anything [one] more than the mission" (paraphrase, obvs - it is odd that, given how much conversation there is on line about it, there isn't a transcription anywhere). That, for me, is the key. What makes her the monster is the ingrained inability to care about anything or anyone more than the mission. The subtext, then, could be "I care about you more than the mission" but I'm not sure it goes that far.
posted by anastasiav at 8:01 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
For me, the key is that she says, at the very end, "so I would never care about anything [one] more than the mission" (paraphrase, obvs - it is odd that, given how much conversation there is on line about it, there isn't a transcription anywhere). That, for me, is the key. What makes her the monster is the ingrained inability to care about anything or anyone more than the mission. The subtext, then, could be "I care about you more than the mission" but I'm not sure it goes that far.
posted by anastasiav at 8:01 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure what you mean by "Kara PLUS Skye." I wrote Kara PLUS, Skye, May and Boobie. I was listing other characters first, then the three you mentioned to show that there were many different female characters.
At this point, it sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care much for Skye either, but they've spent a lot of time going over her background. Hell, the first two seasons are her origin story. So saying she's not complex sounds odd to me, even though I'm not fond of the her. I would say similar things about the other female characters.
Basically Whedon made a choice to foreground fertility, not just for Romanov but for May in Shield.
I'm assuming your talking about Joss and not his brother Jed and Maurissa Tancharoen. Jed and Maurissa are the showrunners are AoS and decide a lot of this stuff. So it's doubtful Joss Wheadon decreed anything so specific about May.
If you look at the flashback confusion scene, there are several depictions of the Red Room that are about forcing Romanov to kill an innocent man, but she doesn't dwelll on that in her discussion with Banner.
Because Natasha was really trying hard to connect with Bruce and he mentioned something they have in common, i.e. kids aren't an option. I would agree that the scene could have been better written, especially if so many people keep insisting it's her fertility, but to me it's clear what the purpose and intent was here.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
At this point, it sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care much for Skye either, but they've spent a lot of time going over her background. Hell, the first two seasons are her origin story. So saying she's not complex sounds odd to me, even though I'm not fond of the her. I would say similar things about the other female characters.
Basically Whedon made a choice to foreground fertility, not just for Romanov but for May in Shield.
I'm assuming your talking about Joss and not his brother Jed and Maurissa Tancharoen. Jed and Maurissa are the showrunners are AoS and decide a lot of this stuff. So it's doubtful Joss Wheadon decreed anything so specific about May.
If you look at the flashback confusion scene, there are several depictions of the Red Room that are about forcing Romanov to kill an innocent man, but she doesn't dwelll on that in her discussion with Banner.
Because Natasha was really trying hard to connect with Bruce and he mentioned something they have in common, i.e. kids aren't an option. I would agree that the scene could have been better written, especially if so many people keep insisting it's her fertility, but to me it's clear what the purpose and intent was here.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is the dialogue available anywhere? This really is a question of textual interpretation.
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:17 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:17 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I personally think that the scene was badly written and that it wasn't the original intention, but there were so many other ways that scene could have gone that could have put the focus on something besides her sterility.
Yeah, I totally agree with this. I *winced* when that line came up in the cinema, like oh shit Joss, I *know* you didn't mean it like that, but you really really really needed to do much better to make that clear.
posted by ominous_paws at 8:38 AM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I totally agree with this. I *winced* when that line came up in the cinema, like oh shit Joss, I *know* you didn't mean it like that, but you really really really needed to do much better to make that clear.
posted by ominous_paws at 8:38 AM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
To me, it's not just the dialogue-several times in the movie there are flashbacks to the gurney being wheeled down the hall. That to me made all the difference. I think it is possible to argue that the dialogue can be interpreted in other ways (i.e. that she is not saying being infertile makes her a monster), but the recurrent visual of the gurney seems to emphasize her infertility.
I also feel like May's situation is handled differently, again because there is just more time on a tv show. We learn fairly early on in the series that she was previously married, so we know there is some sort of story there. There is also a continuous theme throughout the series about family in general and mother-daughter relationships in particular. Even within that particular story there is the counterpoint of the inhuman woman who set everything into motion because of what she was willing to do for her child.
posted by Missense Mutation at 8:59 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also feel like May's situation is handled differently, again because there is just more time on a tv show. We learn fairly early on in the series that she was previously married, so we know there is some sort of story there. There is also a continuous theme throughout the series about family in general and mother-daughter relationships in particular. Even within that particular story there is the counterpoint of the inhuman woman who set everything into motion because of what she was willing to do for her child.
posted by Missense Mutation at 8:59 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Really like this essay.
Do you want Black Widow to be exactly like the other Avengers and incidentally a woman? Because there's an argument that parity calls for that. Or do you want the story to be about the fact that she's a woman, as in fact it is here, and to deal with that fact and make it part of the story of her life? There's an argument that parity calls for that, too.
One of the things I loved about Black Widow in the first Avengers movie was that she succeeded in part because she was a woman - she used being underestimated to her advantage, both in the initial interrogation scene and later with Loki.
the recurrent visual of the gurney seems to emphasize her infertility
I had this reaction too. I kept thinking, holy crap what awful thing are they about to do to her, that we keep seeing this image over and over? Then there's the big reveal that it was sterilization, followed immediately by her calling herself a monster. It really took me out of the movie for a minute, because I had to deal with my "WTF Whedon!" reaction.
posted by heisenberg at 9:10 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Do you want Black Widow to be exactly like the other Avengers and incidentally a woman? Because there's an argument that parity calls for that. Or do you want the story to be about the fact that she's a woman, as in fact it is here, and to deal with that fact and make it part of the story of her life? There's an argument that parity calls for that, too.
One of the things I loved about Black Widow in the first Avengers movie was that she succeeded in part because she was a woman - she used being underestimated to her advantage, both in the initial interrogation scene and later with Loki.
the recurrent visual of the gurney seems to emphasize her infertility
I had this reaction too. I kept thinking, holy crap what awful thing are they about to do to her, that we keep seeing this image over and over? Then there's the big reveal that it was sterilization, followed immediately by her calling herself a monster. It really took me out of the movie for a minute, because I had to deal with my "WTF Whedon!" reaction.
posted by heisenberg at 9:10 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Just as a sort of real-world counterpoint... As a now 36-year old woman who does not want kids, I started having to screen up-front for this. Not joking.
That is absolutely true and a worthwhile point, and a totally fair foundation.
To frame my argument in a less flippant way, Bruce and Natasha are ostensibly talking about how they could have a relationship. Why did the kids come up? Because Bruce is afraid that he will Hulk out and hurt them. Well, let's back that up.
If the primary discussion here is their relationship, he doesn't even have to get to kids to make that point. What if I Hulk out and HURT YOU? Then you have a real conversation based in the canon of the movie. Natasha would, naturally, point out that she's the one who can chill him out. And if she can't chill him out, she can take him out-- introduce the red room. I'm a monster, too.
Natasha says, it's a risk we can take together. Bruce says, it's not a risk I'm willing to take.
Boom.
Now the scene is exactly the same information, focused on the characters, using their own backstories to bolster the content of it... and Natasha hasn't been winnowed down to her fertility.
posted by headspace at 9:35 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
That is absolutely true and a worthwhile point, and a totally fair foundation.
To frame my argument in a less flippant way, Bruce and Natasha are ostensibly talking about how they could have a relationship. Why did the kids come up? Because Bruce is afraid that he will Hulk out and hurt them. Well, let's back that up.
If the primary discussion here is their relationship, he doesn't even have to get to kids to make that point. What if I Hulk out and HURT YOU? Then you have a real conversation based in the canon of the movie. Natasha would, naturally, point out that she's the one who can chill him out. And if she can't chill him out, she can take him out-- introduce the red room. I'm a monster, too.
Natasha says, it's a risk we can take together. Bruce says, it's not a risk I'm willing to take.
Boom.
Now the scene is exactly the same information, focused on the characters, using their own backstories to bolster the content of it... and Natasha hasn't been winnowed down to her fertility.
posted by headspace at 9:35 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just as a sort of real-world counterpoint... As a now 36-year old woman who does not want kids, I started having to screen up-front for this. Not joking.
Seconding this. I usually know this information about somebody within the first few hours of meeting them, and have never known of somebody who was uncomfortable sharing their stance.
posted by amorphatist at 9:36 AM on May 20, 2015
Seconding this. I usually know this information about somebody within the first few hours of meeting them, and have never known of somebody who was uncomfortable sharing their stance.
posted by amorphatist at 9:36 AM on May 20, 2015
"But why is it an issue at this point at ALL? She's trying to get him to go out with her. Most people don't go, "hey, let's date" to "and plan our wedding and name our kids" all on the same day. They don't even know if they can have a relationship.
So for Joss* (via Bruce) to jump from "Let's try this thing!" to "But no baaaaaaaaaaabiessssssss!" says something fundamental about Natasha-- to wit, she can only be interested in a relationship that is going to go long-term and turn into a domestic situation, period. Ladies, they be wanting to settle down, amirite? >"
I read the scene very differently. It's saying something fundamental about Bruce. More than anything else, he wants normality and the trappings that go along with that like a family and kids. Natasha isn't angsting over being infertile - she's saying "neither of us gets to have that, let's take what we can have."
"I've been looking for the exact dialogue and haven't been able to find it, but she tells the story about how the red room sterilized her to make sure she wouldn't have any outside ties and then says that she's a monster. Thinking those two are connected aren't an oversimplification, it's the way the dialogue was constructed."
Well, yes, if that little bit was all we've seen of her you might make that connection. But her calling herself a monster is based on everything we've learned of her character in 3 movies so far. When she called herself a monster, I knew exactly what she was talking about and it had nothing to do with being infertile.
posted by tdismukes at 9:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
So for Joss* (via Bruce) to jump from "Let's try this thing!" to "But no baaaaaaaaaaabiessssssss!" says something fundamental about Natasha-- to wit, she can only be interested in a relationship that is going to go long-term and turn into a domestic situation, period. Ladies, they be wanting to settle down, amirite? >"
I read the scene very differently. It's saying something fundamental about Bruce. More than anything else, he wants normality and the trappings that go along with that like a family and kids. Natasha isn't angsting over being infertile - she's saying "neither of us gets to have that, let's take what we can have."
"I've been looking for the exact dialogue and haven't been able to find it, but she tells the story about how the red room sterilized her to make sure she wouldn't have any outside ties and then says that she's a monster. Thinking those two are connected aren't an oversimplification, it's the way the dialogue was constructed."
Well, yes, if that little bit was all we've seen of her you might make that connection. But her calling herself a monster is based on everything we've learned of her character in 3 movies so far. When she called herself a monster, I knew exactly what she was talking about and it had nothing to do with being infertile.
posted by tdismukes at 9:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
If SHIELD hadn't spent its first season gleefully diving headlong into the normalization of torture, I might still be watching, and therefore might get to enjoy the spectrum of stories for the women in its cast. Alas.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also: am I the only one who was seriously annoyed by Whedon's writing for Cap? "Language?" Seriously? That line, right there, made me genuinely glad that he won't be writing for that character anymore. I don't think that Whedon doesn't "know how" to write Cap, or that he "doesn't know what to do with him," because that just doesn't jive with Whedon's obvious intelligence. I think he's just plain not interested, and it shows.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:52 AM on May 20, 2015
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:52 AM on May 20, 2015
BTW - I do agree with the linked essay. If these movies had just as many lead female characters as male, then no one of those characters would have to act as a stand-in for an entire gender and there would be plenty of room to explore all the various options for those characters without worrying about whether one aspect or another fed into some stereotype.
posted by tdismukes at 9:54 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by tdismukes at 9:54 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't think that Whedon doesn't "know how" to write Cap, or that he "doesn't know what to do with him," because that just doesn't jive with Whedon's obvious intelligence. I think he's just plain not interested, and it shows.
I feel like he's writing Riley Finn again, which is so NOT what Cap is supposed to be (despite the fact that Riley was originally a riff on Cap, but a riff on Cap by people who thought it would be cooler for Cap to be edgy and going into withdrawal and stuff).
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:01 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like he's writing Riley Finn again, which is so NOT what Cap is supposed to be (despite the fact that Riley was originally a riff on Cap, but a riff on Cap by people who thought it would be cooler for Cap to be edgy and going into withdrawal and stuff).
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:01 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've heard a lot about how Age of Ultron was cut short due to a lot of other things having to show up. Yet that incredibly awkward scene in the farm made it into the final cut. Which means somebody fought for having a woman claiming being infertile made her a monster as a scene that needed to be there.
I liked the film, but like others that took me right out of what I was watching.
In short, the film needed more of Chris Evans in Under Armour gear, ripping logs into shreds. THAT is what the farm sequence was about.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:21 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I liked the film, but like others that took me right out of what I was watching.
In short, the film needed more of Chris Evans in Under Armour gear, ripping logs into shreds. THAT is what the farm sequence was about.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:21 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
If infertility was the Thor or the Hulk's greatest fear or regret, people would scratch their heads.
Are you kidding me? The inability to have sons is one of the accepted male tropes.
posted by corb at 10:23 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Are you kidding me? The inability to have sons is one of the accepted male tropes.
posted by corb at 10:23 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Not a big deal, probably a mercy for Banner, but for the heir to a monarchical dynasty? Pretty important.
posted by biffa at 10:40 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 10:40 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
This TV season I stopped watching Arrow, The Flash, Agents of Shield, and Agent Carter. I watched all of, but ended up hating, Daredevil.
Looking at this, I think I'm not finding superhero stories satisfying on many levels, including the stories they tell about women. Far too much violence and torture, and far too little in the way of relatable characters, or lightness, or good plotting, or humor.
I'm very much a fan of genre TV and movies, and I'm increasingly disappointed that all the resources for production of these stories is now going to the superhero genre. I'm hoping we've reached peak superhero and we'll get to see more other kinds of speculative and imaginative stories soon.
posted by Squeak Attack at 10:42 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Looking at this, I think I'm not finding superhero stories satisfying on many levels, including the stories they tell about women. Far too much violence and torture, and far too little in the way of relatable characters, or lightness, or good plotting, or humor.
I'm very much a fan of genre TV and movies, and I'm increasingly disappointed that all the resources for production of these stories is now going to the superhero genre. I'm hoping we've reached peak superhero and we'll get to see more other kinds of speculative and imaginative stories soon.
posted by Squeak Attack at 10:42 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Actually even non-monarchical dynasties. It'd be interesting to see a 'Tony Stark Can't Have Kids' story - I think his playboy lifestyle is all predicated on 'I'll settle down someday, like my dad'. It might be interesting to see how that changes when he realized there's nothing like that, it's that forever, his company will go to strangers.
posted by corb at 10:52 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 10:52 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
To frame my argument in a less flippant way, Bruce and Natasha are ostensibly talking about how they could have a relationship. Why did the kids come up?
Because Bruce was talking about all the things that would make it impossible for them to have a relationship in his mind. He was pointing out that they can't ever by "normal" and she pointed that having/not having kids wasn't going to be an issue, because neither of them could.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because Bruce was talking about all the things that would make it impossible for them to have a relationship in his mind. He was pointing out that they can't ever by "normal" and she pointed that having/not having kids wasn't going to be an issue, because neither of them could.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Are you kidding me? The inability to have sons is one of the accepted male tropes.
Not for nothing, but with heroes I think the trope usually plays out as the inability (or unwillingness) of the guy to find a suitable woman that the guy can have sons with.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:31 AM on May 20, 2015
Not for nothing, but with heroes I think the trope usually plays out as the inability (or unwillingness) of the guy to find a suitable woman that the guy can have sons with.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:31 AM on May 20, 2015
He was pointing out that they can't ever by "normal" and she pointed that having/not having kids wasn't going to be an issue, because neither of them could.
Yes, and that's fine. It's the fact that she follows it up by describing herself as a monster that gets me. And maybe Whedon meant that she's a meant that the lack of a baby meant that she was a better killing machine, and that's what made her monstrous, but, boy, that could have been written better.
posted by maxsparber at 11:37 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, and that's fine. It's the fact that she follows it up by describing herself as a monster that gets me. And maybe Whedon meant that she's a meant that the lack of a baby meant that she was a better killing machine, and that's what made her monstrous, but, boy, that could have been written better.
posted by maxsparber at 11:37 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Squeak Attack, do you mind me asking what put you off Agent Carter? I've just given up on daredevil at the penultimate episode and found that show WAY more dispiriting, though maybe there was just so much more of it...
posted by ominous_paws at 11:49 AM on May 20, 2015
posted by ominous_paws at 11:49 AM on May 20, 2015
Nothing wrong with Agent Carter other than I was bored. I have the final two episodes on my Hulu list to watch, but I never quite get to them. I like Hayley Atewell a lot, and she's charming as Peggy, but I had no investment in finding out how the the overall plot arc concluded.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:15 PM on May 20, 2015
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:15 PM on May 20, 2015
Yes, and that's fine. It's the fact that she follows it up by describing herself as a monster that gets me.
Understandable, but I in various discussions off line with acouple of female friends, they said sympathized with that comment, as they understood where the character might be coming from. That was different take on things for me and a interesting one. There really is a wide spectrum of views.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:29 PM on May 20, 2015
Understandable, but I in various discussions off line with acouple of female friends, they said sympathized with that comment, as they understood where the character might be coming from. That was different take on things for me and a interesting one. There really is a wide spectrum of views.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:29 PM on May 20, 2015
Increasingly, the worst part of the Avengers is not the movie, but the haters.
Every character in the Avengers is broken. That's Marvel's thing -- powerful characters brought down to Earth by some flaw that they have to overcome. This is the first article that's really pointed out that there's no set of flaws that Black Widow could have that would satisfy everyone, or anyone really. Yep.
It really does come down to men are allowed to be themselves, but women are supposed to represent all women. It doesn't work.
posted by effugas at 12:41 PM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Every character in the Avengers is broken. That's Marvel's thing -- powerful characters brought down to Earth by some flaw that they have to overcome. This is the first article that's really pointed out that there's no set of flaws that Black Widow could have that would satisfy everyone, or anyone really. Yep.
It really does come down to men are allowed to be themselves, but women are supposed to represent all women. It doesn't work.
posted by effugas at 12:41 PM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
I suspect it could have gone a lot better if the first movie had two or more female Avengers.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:51 PM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:51 PM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Instead, she dwells on and identifies with the sterilization process and draws an explicit connection between loss of motherhood and monsterhood.
Yeah. They cut a piece of her out, to make her a better monster.
It's not that she's a monster because she can't be a mother. It's that being a mother might someday make her not a monster, and some other people weren't ok with that. It's horrifying. It's meant to be horrifying.
There's this deep thread through the entire movie about the beauty of life -- from Hawkeye's family, through Black Widow, to the philosophy of the Vision making him worthy enough to lift the Hammer. Not to mention the Big Bad has a thing for just raw death. And yet these are all killers and destroyers all the same, and are to various degrees aware of it. There's a lot going on, and good on Whedon for exploring it.
Some people just want their popcorn.
posted by effugas at 2:22 PM on May 20, 2015
Yeah. They cut a piece of her out, to make her a better monster.
It's not that she's a monster because she can't be a mother. It's that being a mother might someday make her not a monster, and some other people weren't ok with that. It's horrifying. It's meant to be horrifying.
There's this deep thread through the entire movie about the beauty of life -- from Hawkeye's family, through Black Widow, to the philosophy of the Vision making him worthy enough to lift the Hammer. Not to mention the Big Bad has a thing for just raw death. And yet these are all killers and destroyers all the same, and are to various degrees aware of it. There's a lot going on, and good on Whedon for exploring it.
Some people just want their popcorn.
posted by effugas at 2:22 PM on May 20, 2015
Nobody (reasonable) can argue that a big part of the problem with the scene everybody's excited about is that there are no other women in the Avengers until Scarlet Witch shows up, and no significant women super-types elsewhere in the MCU franchise--certainly not on the earthbound side. I can even see how Whedon meant the scene to go and it's much less offensive than how he actually wrote it. But it was clunky, badly written, and badly edited, which is sorta par for the course with Whedon and Black Widow.
I'm with whoever upthread who said the problem isn't just the lack of women in front of the camera. More women in writing/directing/editing is necessary to get women in front of the camera and to center their stories as well.
I know I would have been more interested in and tolerant of the problems with that scene had it actually been about the Widow and not just Natasha calling herself a monster to deal with Bruce's man pain.
posted by immlass at 2:47 PM on May 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm with whoever upthread who said the problem isn't just the lack of women in front of the camera. More women in writing/directing/editing is necessary to get women in front of the camera and to center their stories as well.
I know I would have been more interested in and tolerant of the problems with that scene had it actually been about the Widow and not just Natasha calling herself a monster to deal with Bruce's man pain.
posted by immlass at 2:47 PM on May 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
Overall I was more bothered that after confessing her feelings for Bruce, Natasha was dropped into the damsel in distress role and he had to rescue her.
Generally I thought that Age of Ultron could have been a really cool movie if the story had been told from Wanda's perspective.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:16 PM on May 20, 2015
Generally I thought that Age of Ultron could have been a really cool movie if the story had been told from Wanda's perspective.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:16 PM on May 20, 2015
I choose to read more into Natasha calling herself a monster. I can imagine that she wants to have a family and regrets that she can't have that choice. I can imagine that she was forced into an operation as a child and has trauma for that. I think tho, that for her to call herself a monster, what if she wanted the procedure, and chose it wilingly, so that she could become a killer. And now as a adult feels the weight of that decision doubly, as something she was forced into and also chose. You know, messed up childhood style.
Or maybe I'm just too used to reading more into movies than they deserve.
posted by fiercekitten at 8:57 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or maybe I'm just too used to reading more into movies than they deserve.
posted by fiercekitten at 8:57 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because they're soaking in it?
This is the (entirely predictable) irony of the fact that Whedon is getting hammered over Age of Ultron for bad feminist writing, when it's the most subtle feminist writing I can remember seeing from him. (This is not an argument that it's good, just that it's the best I've seen him do.)
posted by lodurr at 8:57 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is the (entirely predictable) irony of the fact that Whedon is getting hammered over Age of Ultron for bad feminist writing, when it's the most subtle feminist writing I can remember seeing from him. (This is not an argument that it's good, just that it's the best I've seen him do.)
posted by lodurr at 8:57 AM on May 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:58 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]