We Are Always Listening
May 20, 2015 10:51 AM   Subscribe

Eavesdropping on the population has revealed many saying “I’m not doing anything wrong so who cares if the NSA tracks what I say and do?”

Citizens don’t seem to mind this monitoring, so we’re hiding recorders in public places in hopes of gathering information to help win the war on terror. We've started with NYC as a pilot program, but hope to roll the initiative out all across The Homeland.
posted by Elementary Penguin (55 comments total) 15 users marked this as a favorite
 
There's no evidence that this is real and happened other than the say-so of this anonymous group, and actually doing it is very illegal. There's hardly any upside to doing it for real if you can pretend you did it convincingly, and a huge downside legally...
posted by BungaDunga at 11:01 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Despite being a generally good point, this is basically preaching to the choir silliness.

Also, I can't imagine that a site pretending (even for parody) to be the NSA will stay up very long.
posted by aught at 11:02 AM on May 20, 2015


doing it is very illegal

Maybe that's the point?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:05 AM on May 20, 2015 [11 favorites]


I don't really get the comparison. Setting aside the fact that “I’m not doing anything wrong so who cares if the NSA tracks what I say and do?” is a straw man (I don't think I've ever heard anyone make that argument seriously, and even if it were common it's pretty low hanging fruit), there's a huge, huge difference between someone searching through massive amounts of data for evidence of terrorism and someone taking your personal conversations and publishing them for everyone to read.
posted by zixyer at 11:06 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]




Maybe that's the point?

Oh, sure. I get they're making a point. I just think it's unlikely they physically hid tape recorders around NYC if only because it would be much safer to pretend they had.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:12 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


They went to all that effort and when they needed some Latin for their motto they went to Google Translate?
posted by topynate at 11:12 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


If you wish to fight a straw man, construct a straw crow.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:13 AM on May 20, 2015 [6 favorites]


does the government have a right to record everyone everywhere and listen to it

Not to single you out in particular but I wish we as a society would remember to regress questions like this to the fact that the government is supposed to be us, and that it has no rights whatsover, only the legalistic tools we specifically allow it.

For this and so many other things I blame the right wing, for its "othering" of the government. This is a very contagious meme, and the solution is not to cut off the government but to reclaim it.

And of course James Clapper has more to answer for than any other single person, what with subverting what remains of a government of the people by lying outright to the Senate and House, not once but over and over again.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:15 AM on May 20, 2015 [54 favorites]


There's no evidence that this is real and happened other than the say-so of this anonymous group, and actually doing it is very illegal.

[citation required] Is it illegal to record what people say in a public place?
posted by pharm at 11:20 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


so we’re hiding recorders in public places

I've seen this one. One of the recorders catches a woman committing a crime and when Benson and Stabler catch her it turns out that a brain tumor is making her bad.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:20 AM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


there's a huge, huge difference between someone searching through massive amounts of data for evidence of terrorism and someone taking your personal conversations and publishing them for everyone to read.

To extrapolate this, there's also a difference between planning to murder everyone but not really doing it except for to the bad people and murdering a few random people, but they're both against the law. There is also no expectation of privacy when speaking in public.

But this is probably a faked art project anyways.
posted by JauntyFedora at 11:20 AM on May 20, 2015


I bet this site has its share of NSA trolls.
posted by eggtooth at 11:25 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


But this is probably a faked art project anyways.

The fact that you're not absolutely, entirely sure that this is fake says all we need to know about privacy in America today.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:26 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


>I bet this site has its share of NSA trolls.

Incorrect.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:27 AM on May 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


there's a huge, huge difference between someone searching through massive amounts of data for evidence of terrorism and someone taking your personal conversations and publishing them for everyone to read.

What is a bit of a straw man is the notion that the NSA and GCHQ are just in it to fight the terrorism baddies. In addition to all that terrorism stuff, the spy services are also great guns at eavesdropping on communication between victims of torture and their lawyers, tasked with the job of helping defeat legal cases against the service's government — specifically, because these are the parties responsible for getting the plaintiffs tortured! It's true: the UK even admitted as much. And that's when they're not getting caught sniffing the electronic equivalent of the public's pantaloons. Terrorism is just a very small part of the overall mission.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:28 AM on May 20, 2015 [8 favorites]


I feel like stunts like these, if this one is actually real, rarely have the effect intended by the pranksters.

I think they're expecting people to see the results and think, "My God, the critics were right, what the NSA has been doing is wrong!"

I think what in reality happens is that it just pisses people off and, if anything, makes them more supportive of government "security measures" if only to stop assholes like this.

It's pretty rare that you blow people's minds by exposing them to the Truth. It reminds me of that fantasy in the Boondocks cartoon Huey has where he gets up at a party for rich people and speaks some truth and everyone freaks out, then when he tries it in reality everyone just ignores him.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:32 AM on May 20, 2015


The fact that you're not absolutely, entirely sure that this is fake says all we need to know about privacy laws against recording public conversations in America wherever unobtrusive recording devices are readily available today.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:32 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


> But this is probably a faked art project anyways.

The thing that immediately jumped out to me is that just the conversation they want you to hear is loud and clear as if they were using a directional mic or had the recorder sitting right there on the table with the conversants.

I am not an audio engineer but it seems to me that if it were just a little hidden recorder with an omnidirectional mic that it would be a lot harder to get such a clear recording of just one conversation.
posted by Gev at 11:33 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


Drinki Die How do we know NSA is NSA? Also, 25 comments by NSA...so, if not
monitoring (if that really is NSA) then, checking it out once in a while?
posted by eggtooth at 11:33 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Citizens don’t seem to mind monitoring, so we’re tallying Favorites in hopes of gathering information to help win the war on terror. We've started with Metafilter as a pilot program, but hope to roll the initiative out all across the kittentubes, including Facebook Likes and Twitter favorites. Those favoriting what is true and just and pure and against the evildoers have nothing to worry about with our keeping track of favorites."
posted by aught at 11:33 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's terrifying, but you also have to remember that the NSA doesn't release recordings publicly to civillians. They also do record, but only have human eyes and ears read/listen to it if one of their flags goes up.

Nonetheless, it goes to show you, in how people will react, that they might not, after all, be okay with NSA espionage as they claim they are.
posted by Grease at 11:36 AM on May 20, 2015


Also, I love that in the Wired article they use "[a] woman at a gym tells her friend she pays rent higher than $2,000 a month" as an example of a personal secret allegedly caught by these recorders.

In NYC the shocking secret you want to hide is how little you're paying for your place if you scored a sweet deal. $2,000 a month probably wouldn't even get a shrug, that's pretty good in a lot of neighborhoods for someone living alone.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:37 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


They should have gone with

We
Are
Stealthily
There
Eavesdropping
posted by thecaddy at 11:37 AM on May 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


P.S. Since when did trolls give out their true identity anyway?
posted by eggtooth at 11:40 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


eggtooth, weev did. Xylitol occasionally trolls, though rarely - his real name is known.

Also I wouldn't call these people trolls. Perhaps trollish behavior, but with a realistic goal politically, instead of mindless bashing for only the sake of testing people's buttons.
posted by Grease at 11:47 AM on May 20, 2015


I blame the right wing, for its "othering" of the government.

What passes for right and left in this country both do this; just at different times in response to different open-loop-government circumstances.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:48 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Looks like it's an ACLU project, not an art project.

Also, New York is a one part consent state, so you can tape what you like as long as you are with the tae recorder.
posted by cjorgensen at 11:49 AM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


OK, Grease....but, I wasn't necessarily just referring to participants on this site.
posted by eggtooth at 11:51 AM on May 20, 2015


What's wrong with having privacy between you and the government? It's not a left or right wing thing.

Left Libertarians as well as Tea Partiers were and still are against NSA espionage. Neocons and Obamacrats are often fervently FOR it. It depends on the faction of each party. Populist roots as well as pro-establishment roots are powerful in BOTH parties. They go both ways, in EACH of BOTH parties.

@eggtooth, where are you getting that Xylitol and Weev are part of Metafilter, exactly?
posted by Grease at 11:52 AM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


I just think it's unlikely they physically hid tape recorders around NYC if only because it would be much safer to pretend they had.

"Yes, officer, I saw a man hanging around the bench, then he dropped off a small electronic device underneath it and walked off..."
posted by corb at 11:54 AM on May 20, 2015


"It seems that a majority of people do object to surveillance."

Thank you. The whole "I have nothing to hide" thing is the most overblown waste of time ever followed by privacy advocates. I'll stop short of calling it a strawman, but I will say that the very limited number of people advocating that point of view are almost certainly beyond convincing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:02 PM on May 20, 2015


Setting aside the fact that “I’m not doing anything wrong so who cares if the NSA tracks what I say and do?” is a straw man (I don't think I've ever heard anyone make that argument seriously, and even if it were common it's pretty low hanging fruit)

I have heard intelligent, successful and erudite lawyers (including those who aspire to judgeships) say this very thing, assert that the Constitution does not protect privacy and that mass wiretapping and capture and storage of intercepted communications without analysis is not an illegal general search under the 4th, and it boggles my mind every time.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:05 PM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


I do like the seal with an eagle wearing headphones. Bet he's listening to Talyor Swift.
posted by sammyo at 12:08 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Grease...they are not who I meant, but, I'm not saying anymore/
posted by eggtooth at 12:10 PM on May 20, 2015


without analysis
That is, with 'merely' statistical or programmatic analysis being used to identify targets for focused investigation, at which point a secret FISA warrant is presumably rubber-stamped before a human starts digging through the stored intercepts.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:12 PM on May 20, 2015


Pubic transit in San Francisco has been recording audio (or warning you that they've been doing so) for at least a decade or two.
posted by effugas at 12:25 PM on May 20, 2015


We've started with NYC as a pilot program, but hope to roll the initiative out all across The Homeland.

We actually are installing a set of law enforcement microphones across New York City... but NYC is hardly the first city to get Shotspotter.
posted by Jahaza at 12:31 PM on May 20, 2015


Mod note: eggtooth, you need to drop this NSA accusation bullshit in here and on the site period. This is a recurring problem with your participation on Metafilter and it stops right now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:37 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


zixyer: “ Setting aside the fact that ‘I’m not doing anything wrong so who cares if the NSA tracks what I say and do?’ is a straw man (I don't think I've ever heard anyone make that argument seriously, and even if it were common it's pretty low hanging fruit) ... ”

Unfortunately, it's an argument which those in power seem fond of making, even when their own private lives seem to put the lie to it.

Eric Schmidt, then-chairman of Google: "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

Trent Lott, former Senate Majority Leader: "What are people worried about? What is the problem? Are you doing something you're not supposed to?"

More examples here.

I agree that this is pretty low-hanging fruit, though.
posted by koeselitz at 12:40 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Eric Schmidt, then-chairman of Google: "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

Other folks have said similar things, but my standby when confronted with this is, "OK then, give me your email password and let me put a camera in your bathroom."

"No? But I thought you had nothing to hide."

A less adolescent, more thorough demolishing of this argument is Daniel J. Solove's paper "Nothing to Hide: The False Tradeoff between Privacy and Security".
posted by ryanshepard at 12:46 PM on May 20, 2015


The thing is, nobody ever says, "I'm not doing anything wrong, so who cares," they say, "if you aren't doing something wrong..."
posted by rhizome at 12:46 PM on May 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


And of course James Clapper has more to answer for than any other single person, what with subverting what remains of a government of the people by lying outright to the Senate and House, not once but over and over again.

this is what the cia does, over and over, even after the handful of times it's been marginally held accountable. the entire intelligence community apparatus is anathema to democracy. it keeps proving this by using its legal secrecy privileges to abuse its powers and entrench itself further, continually since its establishment. it's a parallel wing of government that uses the consensus legitimacy of the traditional state to carry out its own objectives. the only solution is to dismember the whole thing, but that will never happen at this point. it's a fundamentally unresolvable conflict of the american system
posted by p3on at 2:14 PM on May 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


it's gotta be an underground group of hipsters, or some sort of artisanal audio geeks, since they're using tape recorders, and not digital recording devices. i would assert that the challenge is not in placing the tape recorders initially, but the repeated casette flipping and replacing every 45 or 60 minutes. even more challenging if they're using reel-to-reel.

in fairness, the original post (and linked site) did not say "tape recorders" but it was mentioned in enough posts, i couldn't resist.
posted by rude.boy at 2:31 PM on May 20, 2015


“I’m not doing anything wrong so who cares if the NSA tracks what I say and do?”

Yeah, this normally comes from the people doing the surveillance, not the people under surveillance. Even then it's dumb argument. I might be willing to go along with it if 100% of the people ever convicted of a crime (or even charged) were guilty.
posted by VTX at 2:42 PM on May 20, 2015


"I’m not doing anything wrong so who cares if the NSA tracks what I say and do?"

The only world in which a statement like this makes sense is a world in which everyone who has access to or has a say in what happens with that data is infallible both in the sense of never making a mistake (like allowing their security to be breached or incorrectly interpreting data) and in a moral sense in which the uses to which they decide to put that data align exactly with your own ideas of right and wrong. Anyone who has voted in an election and seen the candidate they didn't vote for win should be fully aware that this is not the world in which anyone lives.

This is to say nothing of the many people who will have access to that data that are not even elected in the first place. It's one thing to say "I agree with the X party line on what should be done with this data and entirely trust them to carry them out that policy," but do you trust the low level NSA employee with gambling debts who has been approached by an interested third party?
posted by juv3nal at 4:13 PM on May 20, 2015


I am not an audio engineer but it seems to me that if it were just a little hidden recorder with an omnidirectional mic that it would be a lot harder to get such a clear recording of just one conversation.

You'd be shocked at how good even cheap little recorders have gotten then. I had an older tiny olympus recorder with meh quality, my phone could do better even.

Then i got to play around with one of these. It's TINY, doesn't really matter where you position it, and it consistently delivers amazing audio. Like, superior to a TV news "live on scene" interview. Everything from loud ass live music to james bond shit like this it'll do at like, almost low budget short film quality.

And there's tons of tiny cheap recorders out there with awesome quality like that now. I'm pretty sure there's even several smaller than that, possibly a lot smaller.


I don't disbelieve that this is possible, and i'm not sure i disbelieve they did it. That they did it on the scale they seem to be implying? Maybe not. But it wouldn't surprise me if they had done quite a bit of recording.
posted by emptythought at 5:01 PM on May 20, 2015


thecaddy, I would have accepted "We Await Silent Tristero's Empire"
posted by a halcyon day at 5:10 PM on May 20, 2015 [1 favorite]




I've heard this one: "I wouldn't mind the NSA tracking me if at least they'd give me free WiFi in return."

It actually sorta applies to Google and a lot of other "free" services if you think about it.
posted by sour cream at 11:12 PM on May 20, 2015


We
Are
Stealthily
There
Eavesdropping


Of course, Trystero's Empire is Silent.

That'll learn them NSAers.
posted by chavenet at 2:09 AM on May 21, 2015


> Then i got to play around with one of these. It's TINY, doesn't really matter where you position it, and it consistently delivers amazing audio.

That's a pretty cool little recorder.

But from reading the product page I saw that the H1 has a directional mic which goes back to my theory that it's some kind of "art" thing because an omni would not pick stuff up as clearly:

"The H1's built-in directional microphones focus on the sound being recorded. Unlike omnidirectional microphones, which pick up sound all around indiscriminately, the H1 mics ignore the unwanted noise behind them."
posted by Gev at 5:08 AM on May 21, 2015


One objection I always have to cafe noise, is the quality of what is said, how it is said, subject matter, and delivery, don't even get me started on body language. I get what they say they are listening for, what a noxious task. I have trained myself not to listen, and only to look in potential self defense.
posted by Oyéah at 10:47 AM on May 21, 2015


In Defense of Doing Wrong The following is a lightly edited transcript of remarks delivered by Ben Wizner at The Point’s privacy dialogue at n+1 headquarters in Brooklyn. Mr. Wizner and the other panelists were asked to respond to the question, “What is privacy for?” (the subject of our Issue 9 symposium) and to address Jeremy Rifkin’s contention that privacy is a capitalist value which we ought to discard as the human race enters a new “era of transparency.” Watch the video at the end of this article to hear the other panelists’ comments.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:58 AM on May 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


June 21 is whistleblower Edward Snowden's 32nd birthday btw.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:12 PM on May 28, 2015


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