This is Richard. His parents are doing OK.
May 23, 2015 5:34 PM Subscribe
I've been dealing with some asshat libertarians on my facebook that make me cringe like a cat with their hair sticking up, and this was particularly refreshing today. (Supports for the poor and medical care results in dangerous communism like USSR!!! OMG!!!) Thanks for sharing.
posted by xarnop at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 6:00 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
This puts an easily-understood spin on this issue. Thanks for posting!
posted by xingcat at 6:07 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by xingcat at 6:07 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
*applauds*
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:43 PM on May 23, 2015
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:43 PM on May 23, 2015
I have met very few people as privileged as Richard who actually think their fortunes are strictly the result of their own efforts. It seems like more of a trope than a reality.
Even rich, capitalism-loving right wingers tend to acknowledge the advantages they had over other people. They might not be as bothered by the inequality, and they often overestimate people's ability to change their station, but they aren't as self-unaware as works like this suggest.
If the goal is to get through to more fortunate people, it's probably best not to approach them assuming they are clueless.
posted by andrewpcone at 7:09 PM on May 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Even rich, capitalism-loving right wingers tend to acknowledge the advantages they had over other people. They might not be as bothered by the inequality, and they often overestimate people's ability to change their station, but they aren't as self-unaware as works like this suggest.
If the goal is to get through to more fortunate people, it's probably best not to approach them assuming they are clueless.
posted by andrewpcone at 7:09 PM on May 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Even rich, capitalism-loving right wingers tend to acknowledge the advantages they had over other people.
In my experience, not really, or in the shallowest possible way, where they feel their two weeks eating only ramen food in college because they drank their allowance gave them perspective on what it's like to have to get by on almost nothing.
posted by maxwelton at 7:36 PM on May 23, 2015 [105 favorites]
In my experience, not really, or in the shallowest possible way, where they feel their two weeks eating only ramen food in college because they drank their allowance gave them perspective on what it's like to have to get by on almost nothing.
posted by maxwelton at 7:36 PM on May 23, 2015 [105 favorites]
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me. You can tell from the bowtie-wearing bequiffed ponce taking oysters from a plate.
posted by topynate at 7:36 PM on May 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by topynate at 7:36 PM on May 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Brutal and perfect.
posted by uosuaq at 7:40 PM on May 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by uosuaq at 7:40 PM on May 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me.
Good. We need more of that.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:48 PM on May 23, 2015 [95 favorites]
Good. We need more of that.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:48 PM on May 23, 2015 [95 favorites]
in an inegalitarian society somebody has to be poor. this cartoon suggests that, through no fault of her own or her parents, Paula and her parents made a series of decisions (her parents didn't giver he educations toys, she watched too much TV, her parents weren't around because they were working, etc.) that led her to end up working as a server for a caterer... but what if it didn't actually matter, what if whatever decisions she made, no matter how well educated, she would have ended up in the same place? I mean, somebody has to...
the cartoonist seems to think that, essentially, education is the solution to poverty, but what if there really aren't enough opportunities to go around?
secondly:
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me. You can tell from the bowtie-wearing bequiffed ponce taking oysters from a plate.
oddly enough, you get more of a sense of Paula's "character" than Dick, I can call Richard that, right? If I really wanted to do some class agitation I would focus on the sorts of decisions that Dick has had to make in order to get to his nice office job. Who did he screw over to get that promotion, whose ass did he kiss to turn the internship into a job? Who's work does he use as his own, does he take credit for in the office... his secretary, an intern? Few people get rich and powerful by accident, maybe the avarice and ruthlessness it takes are much more a mark on the character of the rich than what it takes to be poor...
posted by ennui.bz at 7:59 PM on May 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
the cartoonist seems to think that, essentially, education is the solution to poverty, but what if there really aren't enough opportunities to go around?
secondly:
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me. You can tell from the bowtie-wearing bequiffed ponce taking oysters from a plate.
oddly enough, you get more of a sense of Paula's "character" than Dick, I can call Richard that, right? If I really wanted to do some class agitation I would focus on the sorts of decisions that Dick has had to make in order to get to his nice office job. Who did he screw over to get that promotion, whose ass did he kiss to turn the internship into a job? Who's work does he use as his own, does he take credit for in the office... his secretary, an intern? Few people get rich and powerful by accident, maybe the avarice and ruthlessness it takes are much more a mark on the character of the rich than what it takes to be poor...
posted by ennui.bz at 7:59 PM on May 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's hard to make a point that gets across to everyone. I think this comic does as good a job as one can in a few panels.
posted by uosuaq at 8:03 PM on May 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by uosuaq at 8:03 PM on May 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think the intended audience is restaurant worker types, not white collar workers.
posted by oceanjesse at 8:14 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 8:14 PM on May 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's hard to make a point that gets across to everyone.
But what is the point? What can Dick do about it? Not make ignorant comments at catered events? Work at a non-profit instead of an advertising agency? Use his vacation time to do a social justice tour of Latin America?
Maybe instead of making his ignorant comment at the party, he could show this comic to Paula on his new phone. To show that he understands, and feels a little guilty.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:16 PM on May 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
But what is the point? What can Dick do about it? Not make ignorant comments at catered events? Work at a non-profit instead of an advertising agency? Use his vacation time to do a social justice tour of Latin America?
Maybe instead of making his ignorant comment at the party, he could show this comic to Paula on his new phone. To show that he understands, and feels a little guilty.
posted by ennui.bz at 8:16 PM on May 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Given my work, I've known a lot of successful people. Some of them are even less aware of the advantages they had than Dick is, while some of them are the first to tell you. However, the sort of people I know are all the sort who have to work to get where they are, even if many of them could have been lazy fucks their whole lives and still have been comfortable.
Point is, there are all kinds, even within the various classes of wealth. This is how so many middle class and lower people manage to have sympathy for the "plight" of the rich people. I know quite a few people who I really don't think need to be taxed more despite their high income. They already put it to good use. However, I know quite a few others who could benefit from a 95% top marginal rate. Ironically, the former are the ones who don't complain about their tax burden, while the latter are whining about it every quarter.
Thankfully, I don't have to listen to it any more now that I work almost 100% remotely. Thank you, Internet!
posted by wierdo at 8:16 PM on May 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Point is, there are all kinds, even within the various classes of wealth. This is how so many middle class and lower people manage to have sympathy for the "plight" of the rich people. I know quite a few people who I really don't think need to be taxed more despite their high income. They already put it to good use. However, I know quite a few others who could benefit from a 95% top marginal rate. Ironically, the former are the ones who don't complain about their tax burden, while the latter are whining about it every quarter.
Thankfully, I don't have to listen to it any more now that I work almost 100% remotely. Thank you, Internet!
posted by wierdo at 8:16 PM on May 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
the sort of people I know are all the sort who have to work to get where they are, even if many of them could have been lazy fucks their whole lives and still have been comfortable
Maybe that is part of the problem. If you have enough to be comfortable and yet you still "Rat Race" ... what is that about? Neosocial Darwinism or Thrive-ival of the Fittest.
posted by vicx at 8:32 PM on May 23, 2015
Maybe that is part of the problem. If you have enough to be comfortable and yet you still "Rat Race" ... what is that about? Neosocial Darwinism or Thrive-ival of the Fittest.
posted by vicx at 8:32 PM on May 23, 2015
where they feel their two weeks eating only ramen food in college because they drank their allowance gave them perspective
I went to university with mostly upper middle class people (that's British upper middle class, so think anywhere from Will Self to Boris Johnson). The absolute favourite tune at the local cheesy club night was Common People. Ironic self-awareness is a thing. As pointed out above, dicky-bow might not lose much sleep over his advantages, but he'll be aware of them.
posted by topynate at 8:35 PM on May 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I went to university with mostly upper middle class people (that's British upper middle class, so think anywhere from Will Self to Boris Johnson). The absolute favourite tune at the local cheesy club night was Common People. Ironic self-awareness is a thing. As pointed out above, dicky-bow might not lose much sleep over his advantages, but he'll be aware of them.
posted by topynate at 8:35 PM on May 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
What can Dick do about it? For starters, he can not support the Tea Party, and not let them scorch the earth in Florida, et al. I'm sure we can find more stuff for Dick to do once that clusterfuck of a political party is buried.
posted by Brocktoon at 8:45 PM on May 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 8:45 PM on May 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Believe it or not, one of the things Dick can do is educate himself about what Dick can do, and not expect a short comic strip to provide solutions for him. That's one great way to recognize and address privilege -- to take responsibility for it.
posted by maxsparber at 8:54 PM on May 23, 2015 [44 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 8:54 PM on May 23, 2015 [44 favorites]
On the spectrum of privilege I have less than the guy in the cartoon, but I still have plenty. It chaps my ass to no end when the "born on third and think they hit a triple" people sit around complaining about the poors and about their taxes, without the slightest hint of humility and awareness of how much help it takes to be successful.
It's important to own your history and own your place in the world, which means acknowledging the support and luck you had to get where you are. And it means not leaving the important parts out when you are giving advice or telling your story -- "work hard!" is great, but don't forget the other stuff, like using your parents' support to travel overseas or leave college with minimal debt.
(Or, on preview, what maxsparber said just above: "take responsibility for it.")
posted by Dip Flash at 8:59 PM on May 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's important to own your history and own your place in the world, which means acknowledging the support and luck you had to get where you are. And it means not leaving the important parts out when you are giving advice or telling your story -- "work hard!" is great, but don't forget the other stuff, like using your parents' support to travel overseas or leave college with minimal debt.
(Or, on preview, what maxsparber said just above: "take responsibility for it.")
posted by Dip Flash at 8:59 PM on May 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
Dick isn't even rich. If there's a problem, it's that the truly rich failed to invest in a society in which Paula would have had nearly the same opportunities as Dick. Compared to the wealthy, Dick's upbringing and class are not so different than Paula's. Dick ain't no millionaire, let alone billionaire.
And come to think of it, Paula's no Afghani kid in a warzone invaded by Paula's country, nor a Bangladeshi kid paid pennies piecework to sew Paula's jean and shirt. In many ways, Paula has Dick-sized privilege.
Shit's all fucked up, yo.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:54 PM on May 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
And come to think of it, Paula's no Afghani kid in a warzone invaded by Paula's country, nor a Bangladeshi kid paid pennies piecework to sew Paula's jean and shirt. In many ways, Paula has Dick-sized privilege.
Shit's all fucked up, yo.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:54 PM on May 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
I think an important audience for this comic is Paula, actually. Plenty of Paulas think that they somehow screwed up and if they had just worked harder at school, or made the right decision at some crossroads in their life, they would be a Richard instead. And while that might be true for some Paulas some of the time, most of the time it isn't and there wasn't any right choice they could have made that would have guaranteed them Richard's life.
So even if all the Richards ignore comics like this, or, as someone above suggested, are already aware of their privilege, the comic could still do some good if it makes Paula realise that her disadvantages have been at least partly structural rather than personal, and that political change is some of the solution. I think a lot of inequality stays that way because Paulas believe they are just one step away from being Richards, so they want things to stay awesome for Richard, so that they can enjoy the same privileges when they get there.
posted by lollusc at 11:21 PM on May 23, 2015 [39 favorites]
So even if all the Richards ignore comics like this, or, as someone above suggested, are already aware of their privilege, the comic could still do some good if it makes Paula realise that her disadvantages have been at least partly structural rather than personal, and that political change is some of the solution. I think a lot of inequality stays that way because Paulas believe they are just one step away from being Richards, so they want things to stay awesome for Richard, so that they can enjoy the same privileges when they get there.
posted by lollusc at 11:21 PM on May 23, 2015 [39 favorites]
One interesting thing the comic points out is the role of expectations (with the report card). The comic is unclear whether it was the tutor or the expectations themselves that made Richard more successful.
In my experience tutoring math, I've been amazed at how people's expectations, both about the subject and about themselves, can control the way they learn. Kids who expect to do well at school—and who are expected to—can do remarkably well, even if they don't seem predisposed to math. Brilliant kids with lower expectations can get hung up on the tiniest details and convince themselves that math is impossible.
I found that people's ideas about themselves were pretty well set by their parents hired me. Poor families paid a bunch of money for me to teach their kid, but there was often little I could do, because the kid saw himself/herself as the kind of person that would never do well at math. Sometimes I could boost their confidence, but it rarely lasted.
Embarrassingly, I don't think I did a whole lot of good for anyone, rich or poor, even though the kids and parents liked me. Ultimately it's the kid who needs to learn the math, not me who needs to teach it, and whether that happens has a lot to do with expectation setting and other cues.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:36 PM on May 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
In my experience tutoring math, I've been amazed at how people's expectations, both about the subject and about themselves, can control the way they learn. Kids who expect to do well at school—and who are expected to—can do remarkably well, even if they don't seem predisposed to math. Brilliant kids with lower expectations can get hung up on the tiniest details and convince themselves that math is impossible.
I found that people's ideas about themselves were pretty well set by their parents hired me. Poor families paid a bunch of money for me to teach their kid, but there was often little I could do, because the kid saw himself/herself as the kind of person that would never do well at math. Sometimes I could boost their confidence, but it rarely lasted.
Embarrassingly, I don't think I did a whole lot of good for anyone, rich or poor, even though the kids and parents liked me. Ultimately it's the kid who needs to learn the math, not me who needs to teach it, and whether that happens has a lot to do with expectation setting and other cues.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:36 PM on May 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
I recall one guy once saying how his acknowledged privilege didn't amount to much because his goals were higher (as the comic explains) and because there was always someone even more privileged than him. Because his vision of a career bottoming worst case on a six-figure job is terrible.
But one thing the comic fails to address is how it doesn't take risk-taking into account. For someone with deep pockets, a mistake can be a small set-back; for everyone else, it can be a burden that derails a life. One of the reasons I quit my last job with extreme prejudice was how I was being lectured by two college-age kids who could afford to quit their courses and frolic on a commercial endeavor because their parents are well-off, and yet, I was constantly hearing on how life is hard for everyone, how they have other responsibilities before mine, etc. after being assured it was a "fool-proof" plan. A few weeks later, I pitched the idea to open a small creative office with two friends, but we couldn't take that risk, because there was no safety net. We had ideas that COULD turn out to be profitable, but for us it would be always be tightrope walking unless we struck out of the park a few times early.
Other thing it also skims is the issue of connections. A friend of mine keeps telling me I certainly have value for a lot of people (mostly in terms of experimental multimedia art installations) - they just don't know I exist. Being an outsider sucks, but it's easier to get the foot on the door with money, either by being able to attend networking events, or being able to do projects and advertise them without needing external backing. I have an exhibit lined up on a bar, but to make it happen, I need external funding, because while I have the budgeting all lined up for profit, I can't afford the risk.
TL;DR: Life is fucked unless you're rich or settle, which is how the ones on the top like it.
posted by lmfsilva at 3:04 AM on May 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
But one thing the comic fails to address is how it doesn't take risk-taking into account. For someone with deep pockets, a mistake can be a small set-back; for everyone else, it can be a burden that derails a life. One of the reasons I quit my last job with extreme prejudice was how I was being lectured by two college-age kids who could afford to quit their courses and frolic on a commercial endeavor because their parents are well-off, and yet, I was constantly hearing on how life is hard for everyone, how they have other responsibilities before mine, etc. after being assured it was a "fool-proof" plan. A few weeks later, I pitched the idea to open a small creative office with two friends, but we couldn't take that risk, because there was no safety net. We had ideas that COULD turn out to be profitable, but for us it would be always be tightrope walking unless we struck out of the park a few times early.
Other thing it also skims is the issue of connections. A friend of mine keeps telling me I certainly have value for a lot of people (mostly in terms of experimental multimedia art installations) - they just don't know I exist. Being an outsider sucks, but it's easier to get the foot on the door with money, either by being able to attend networking events, or being able to do projects and advertise them without needing external backing. I have an exhibit lined up on a bar, but to make it happen, I need external funding, because while I have the budgeting all lined up for profit, I can't afford the risk.
TL;DR: Life is fucked unless you're rich or settle, which is how the ones on the top like it.
posted by lmfsilva at 3:04 AM on May 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
But what is the point? What can Dick do about it?
What about supporting policy or political action that results in the redistribution of wealth to the disadvantaged?
posted by en forme de poire at 3:18 AM on May 24, 2015 [19 favorites]
What about supporting policy or political action that results in the redistribution of wealth to the disadvantaged?
posted by en forme de poire at 3:18 AM on May 24, 2015 [19 favorites]
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me.
For those playing the home version, check the box for "It's only class warfare [agitation] if it's the poors that want to talk about it."
posted by zardoz at 3:34 AM on May 24, 2015 [37 favorites]
For those playing the home version, check the box for "It's only class warfare [agitation] if it's the poors that want to talk about it."
posted by zardoz at 3:34 AM on May 24, 2015 [37 favorites]
The panel about Paula taking care of her sick dad hits home for me.
My mom is 12 years younger than my husband's parents. But poor health, largely caused by stress & poverty, has lead to her being seriously disabled in her late-50s, and now I find myself doing elder care before I even got my career off the ground. In the meantime, my lovely and very progressive, but also educated and well-to-do inlaws are super healthy and not reliant on their kids at all, even as both approach 70 (rather, they are able to help relieve childcare burdens).
I used to think of myself as relatively privileged, as I always had a safe home and plenty to eat. But as I've gotten older, I've noticed more and more little ways that I was disadvantaged compared to my middle class friends. I paid for my own university, I was limited to going to one of the two local ones, I was doing my undergraduate while also dealing with serious family issues and eventually contributing to the family rent. I never went out to a pub night in undergrad. I didn't join many social clubs. I also couldn't take the summer to study a foreign language (even at a free program), as I needed to work. I didn't know what an internship was and neither did my mom. I got into grad school, but I wasn't socialized to know how to network well with professionals.
And yet, I'm from a white, anglophone family; I can't imagine how much harder it would have been for someone without the language skills and cultural capital we had (even if we lacked social and literal capital).
posted by jb at 3:50 AM on May 24, 2015 [29 favorites]
My mom is 12 years younger than my husband's parents. But poor health, largely caused by stress & poverty, has lead to her being seriously disabled in her late-50s, and now I find myself doing elder care before I even got my career off the ground. In the meantime, my lovely and very progressive, but also educated and well-to-do inlaws are super healthy and not reliant on their kids at all, even as both approach 70 (rather, they are able to help relieve childcare burdens).
I used to think of myself as relatively privileged, as I always had a safe home and plenty to eat. But as I've gotten older, I've noticed more and more little ways that I was disadvantaged compared to my middle class friends. I paid for my own university, I was limited to going to one of the two local ones, I was doing my undergraduate while also dealing with serious family issues and eventually contributing to the family rent. I never went out to a pub night in undergrad. I didn't join many social clubs. I also couldn't take the summer to study a foreign language (even at a free program), as I needed to work. I didn't know what an internship was and neither did my mom. I got into grad school, but I wasn't socialized to know how to network well with professionals.
And yet, I'm from a white, anglophone family; I can't imagine how much harder it would have been for someone without the language skills and cultural capital we had (even if we lacked social and literal capital).
posted by jb at 3:50 AM on May 24, 2015 [29 favorites]
But what is the point? What can Dick do about it? Not make ignorant comments at catered events? Work at a non-profit instead of an advertising agency? Use his vacation time to do a social justice tour of Latin America?Most of us live in democracies. At least in theory, that means the will of the people will influence policy. Certainly 1 Dick can't make a difference, but thousands of Dicks can.
Maybe instead of making his ignorant comment at the party, he could show this comic to Paula on his new phone. To show that he understands, and feels a little guilty.
The government in the UK are day by day, dismantling the welfare system. They're justifying this by appealing to "hard working people", suggesting those who need help from the state are lazy or not willing to work, all while tearing down the programs which provide the only safety net for those from less privileged backgrounds. They're aiming to completely remove any sort of social support for those under 24 (because *everyone* has a stable family home to live in, right?). Policies proposed by wealthy middle aged men designed to appeal to their wealthy middle aged and pensioner electorate. The entire government and much of their electorate are "Dick".
posted by leo_r at 4:08 AM on May 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
But one thing the comic fails to address is how it doesn't take risk-taking into account.
This is huge. Going to a better, but distant, school is a risk. Studying abroad, taking an unpaid internship, or accepting a job with low pay but great long term prospects are all risks. A few people I've known were able to start businesses with seed money from their family -- failing is embarrassing, but there's no risk of ending up destitute.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is huge. Going to a better, but distant, school is a risk. Studying abroad, taking an unpaid internship, or accepting a job with low pay but great long term prospects are all risks. A few people I've known were able to start businesses with seed money from their family -- failing is embarrassing, but there's no risk of ending up destitute.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on May 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is some aspect of this cartoon controversial? Which one - the existence of inequality? Or of privilege?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2015
posted by the agents of KAOS at 8:14 AM on May 24, 2015
But what is the point? What can Dick do about it?
I assumed the whole point of the comic was to get the Richards of the world to recognize their headstart as a source of their "success" and at the very least vote for, support, and donate to candidates who support social programs.
posted by sourwookie at 8:19 AM on May 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
I assumed the whole point of the comic was to get the Richards of the world to recognize their headstart as a source of their "success" and at the very least vote for, support, and donate to candidates who support social programs.
posted by sourwookie at 8:19 AM on May 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me.
I see this kinda comment all the time, these days. WTF does it even mean? Does it acknowledge classes and their inequalities while, at the same time, disparage any efforts to change them, or does it mean that any effort to change things is being uppity and dangerous? I'm not OK with either one, mind you, but I like to know what kind of prick I'm dealing with.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:25 AM on May 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
I see this kinda comment all the time, these days. WTF does it even mean? Does it acknowledge classes and their inequalities while, at the same time, disparage any efforts to change them, or does it mean that any effort to change things is being uppity and dangerous? I'm not OK with either one, mind you, but I like to know what kind of prick I'm dealing with.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:25 AM on May 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
Dick isn't even rich. If there's a problem, it's that the truly rich failed to invest in a society in which Paula would have had nearly the same opportunities as Dick.
And that the poor and the middle class repeatedly vote for governments who act in the interests of the rich rather than in their interests.
Perhaps someone who's privileged can explain to me how that works?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:53 AM on May 24, 2015
And that the poor and the middle class repeatedly vote for governments who act in the interests of the rich rather than in their interests.
Perhaps someone who's privileged can explain to me how that works?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:53 AM on May 24, 2015
This is "class agitation" only in the sense that it's talking about class. That's not to deny that the facts about class are, to say the least, agitating. I fail to see how that could a bad thing. American political discourse is in desperate need of more awareness/acknowledgement of how social class affects people's lives.
posted by bracems at 10:01 AM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bracems at 10:01 AM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me.
I see this kinda comment all the time, these days. WTF does it even mean
I think it means "STFU, Poor"
posted by sourwookie at 10:41 AM on May 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I see this kinda comment all the time, these days. WTF does it even mean
I think it means "STFU, Poor"
posted by sourwookie at 10:41 AM on May 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think it means "STFU, Poor"
Well, if your model of morality is actually "I deserve to have all the money", it's only natural to ask "what value have you without any money?"
And then you develop micropayment systems so you can fleece large swathes of poor people who don't have enough individually to have any larger amount taken!
I have to admit, I didn't mean this seriously as I typed it but now that I'm staring at it considering hitting post...
posted by atbash at 10:59 AM on May 24, 2015
Well, if your model of morality is actually "I deserve to have all the money", it's only natural to ask "what value have you without any money?"
And then you develop micropayment systems so you can fleece large swathes of poor people who don't have enough individually to have any larger amount taken!
I have to admit, I didn't mean this seriously as I typed it but now that I'm staring at it considering hitting post...
posted by atbash at 10:59 AM on May 24, 2015
WTF does it even mean?
So the suggestion was that the aim of the cartoon was to educate people like Richard, and that it wasn't doing that very effectively. I replied to the effect that no, the cartoon is not an attempt to communicate with people like him, that's obvious from the OTT caricature. In fact, it can hardly be said to convey an idea that the intended audience isn't already broadly aware of. Rather, it's supposed to act on emotions (hence use of caricature) which are already present. That's 'agitation'. Perfectly comprehensible if you know the lingo.
I think it means "STFU, Poor"
I don't think the cartoonist is poor (though I could be wrong). I think he's a kind of intellectual talking to other people like him.
posted by topynate at 11:11 AM on May 24, 2015
So the suggestion was that the aim of the cartoon was to educate people like Richard, and that it wasn't doing that very effectively. I replied to the effect that no, the cartoon is not an attempt to communicate with people like him, that's obvious from the OTT caricature. In fact, it can hardly be said to convey an idea that the intended audience isn't already broadly aware of. Rather, it's supposed to act on emotions (hence use of caricature) which are already present. That's 'agitation'. Perfectly comprehensible if you know the lingo.
I think it means "STFU, Poor"
I don't think the cartoonist is poor (though I could be wrong). I think he's a kind of intellectual talking to other people like him.
posted by topynate at 11:11 AM on May 24, 2015
Some pretty reactionary pushback against a message that is obvious on its face. I know a jillion Richards and Richard Apologists; people who seem to honestly believe that hard work and a stiff upper lip = success. I also know a bunch of Paulas who believe they got no one but themselves to blame for where they are right now. And Paulas who believe Richards toughed it out to get ahead. This comic provides context for both the Richards and the Paulas to see the whole picture.
But on that note, I am baffled by the dismissals that this one web comic does not have the the power to engage sweeping social changes. I mean, no shit. I see this same dismissal about protests, about direct action, and political organizing of any kind. Plucking the thing itself out of all context as if it's the only thing going on. It's a tool, guys, one tool out of a great many.
Class agitation as if it's a bad thing? I got news for you: there's already a class war going on. It's one the employing class are waging against the working class by fighting tooth and nail to keep minimum wage down, hack away at the social welfare system, and protect their mountains of wealth at all costs. We could use a little class agitation in the other direction for a change.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:50 AM on May 24, 2015 [24 favorites]
But on that note, I am baffled by the dismissals that this one web comic does not have the the power to engage sweeping social changes. I mean, no shit. I see this same dismissal about protests, about direct action, and political organizing of any kind. Plucking the thing itself out of all context as if it's the only thing going on. It's a tool, guys, one tool out of a great many.
Class agitation as if it's a bad thing? I got news for you: there's already a class war going on. It's one the employing class are waging against the working class by fighting tooth and nail to keep minimum wage down, hack away at the social welfare system, and protect their mountains of wealth at all costs. We could use a little class agitation in the other direction for a change.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:50 AM on May 24, 2015 [24 favorites]
I like to pretend that Paula at least spit on the oysters or didn't wash her hands after going to the bathroom.
posted by Renoroc at 12:05 PM on May 24, 2015
posted by Renoroc at 12:05 PM on May 24, 2015
If we're going to debate intention, bear in mind that the cartoon and cartoonist are from New Zealand, which has far less inequality than the USA or UK. Homelessness almost doesn't exist (in many places you can go your whole life without seeing a homeless person because the social security net is supposed to catch everyone. Unlike food stamps, there are not strings attached, which makes it incredibly powerful, but if for example you suffer from mental illness, there may be a gap between not wanting to live in an institution but struggling to convince a landlord to rent to you, and then things can get more complicated).
In this environment, which lacks the more in-your-face extremes of poverty and privilege that you grow up with in the USA, I think it's possible that the popular understanding of privilege hasn't had the same urgency (I'm not sure - it's been a while since I was there, and the political climate has shifted right since), and at the same time, is less toxic, because there is already broad agreement that society exists for the betterment of all.
posted by anonymisc at 12:13 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
In this environment, which lacks the more in-your-face extremes of poverty and privilege that you grow up with in the USA, I think it's possible that the popular understanding of privilege hasn't had the same urgency (I'm not sure - it's been a while since I was there, and the political climate has shifted right since), and at the same time, is less toxic, because there is already broad agreement that society exists for the betterment of all.
posted by anonymisc at 12:13 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I like to pretend that Paula at least spit on the oysters or didn't wash her hands after going to the bathroom.
I like to pretend that Paula is a professional of at least Richard's calibre, and acts like one.
posted by anonymisc at 12:15 PM on May 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
I like to pretend that Paula is a professional of at least Richard's calibre, and acts like one.
posted by anonymisc at 12:15 PM on May 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
I don't think the cartoonist is poor (though I could be wrong). I think he's a kind of intellectual talking to other people like him.
So the cartoonist needs to be poor in order for his cartoon's message and theme to be valid? If the cartoonist is comfortable in any way, then, we can just completely ignore the idea of privilege? Move along, nothing to see here?
posted by zardoz at 2:18 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
So the cartoonist needs to be poor in order for his cartoon's message and theme to be valid? If the cartoonist is comfortable in any way, then, we can just completely ignore the idea of privilege? Move along, nothing to see here?
posted by zardoz at 2:18 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Excellent.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:46 PM on May 24, 2015
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:46 PM on May 24, 2015
Metafilter: Certainly 1 Dick can't make a difference, but thousands of Dicks can.
posted by rifflesby at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 2:58 PM on May 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
re: education, agitation, responsibility & redistribution...
- Kansas's shocking new law will take poor people's money and give it to big banks - "There's just no plausible purpose other than hurting the poor."
- Warren Buffett: The EITC is better than the minimum wage
- Fiscal Policy and Economic Growth: The entrepreneurial rich have leveraged assets and benefit proportionally more from full employment—the successful economic policies of spending (TARP), financial guarantees, and monetary expansion (Federal Reserve) were originated by Paulson and Bernanke—both Republicans
- Now the Bank of England needs to deliver QE for the people: We propose that the government legislates to empower the Bank with the ability to make payments directly to the household sector
- Macroeconomic Policy and "The Right" - "The fight over whether to have a sensible or insane macroeconomic policy has not always been a left-right matter. But the failure of any sensible macroeconomic right to maintain its theoretical and political influence has made it one."
- Senator Bernie Sanders: The Fight for Economic Justice [1,2,3]
The goal looks more like class agitation, to me.
Agitation is bad? People who've been screwed over by a ridiculously unfair/lopsided system should refrain from being mildly displeased by their lot in life, while listening to, as mentioned above, born on third base assholes talk about how difficult hitting that triple was? When any talk of trying to make things more equal is met with accusations of class "agitation" (what, is this the new thing, warfare was giving too many people ideas?), that's disturbing. Discussing the deepset inequalities of the system seems to make only one group uncomfortable: the group that benefits from the rigged game.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:39 AM on May 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Agitation is bad? People who've been screwed over by a ridiculously unfair/lopsided system should refrain from being mildly displeased by their lot in life, while listening to, as mentioned above, born on third base assholes talk about how difficult hitting that triple was? When any talk of trying to make things more equal is met with accusations of class "agitation" (what, is this the new thing, warfare was giving too many people ideas?), that's disturbing. Discussing the deepset inequalities of the system seems to make only one group uncomfortable: the group that benefits from the rigged game.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:39 AM on May 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, the cartoonist and context is from New Zealand (so am I).
A generation ago, we were happily egalitarian, but the level of economic inequality has rocketed in the last 20 years. We are no longer the 'everyone gets a fair chance' country we still think we are.
Notably, there is the example of the current prime minister, John Key. His father was a businessman, but when his parents divorced, he lived in a state home with his mother. We HAD such an excellent safety net that they were lucky enough to have a very good state home, in a very good area, which gave him access to one of the best schools in his area - his friends would have had money.
He went on to head the Asia Pacific branch of Merrill-Lynch, yes, of global financial crisis fame, before being head hunted to lead the centre right National Party, where they are dismantling that same safety net that got John Key, and other members of the National Party, where they are today.
It seems to be that attitude that wants to prove that it was only their own hard work that got them where they are today, and not at all helped by a ladder from society, and they will prove that by destroying the ladder for anyone else.
It is really depressing.
posted by Elysum at 8:34 AM on May 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
A generation ago, we were happily egalitarian, but the level of economic inequality has rocketed in the last 20 years. We are no longer the 'everyone gets a fair chance' country we still think we are.
Notably, there is the example of the current prime minister, John Key. His father was a businessman, but when his parents divorced, he lived in a state home with his mother. We HAD such an excellent safety net that they were lucky enough to have a very good state home, in a very good area, which gave him access to one of the best schools in his area - his friends would have had money.
He went on to head the Asia Pacific branch of Merrill-Lynch, yes, of global financial crisis fame, before being head hunted to lead the centre right National Party, where they are dismantling that same safety net that got John Key, and other members of the National Party, where they are today.
It seems to be that attitude that wants to prove that it was only their own hard work that got them where they are today, and not at all helped by a ladder from society, and they will prove that by destroying the ladder for anyone else.
It is really depressing.
posted by Elysum at 8:34 AM on May 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
It seems to be that attitude that wants to prove that it was only their own hard work that for them where they are today, and at all helped by a ladder from society, and they will prove it by destroying the ladder for anyone else.
I've heard this philosophy described as "I got mine so fuck you". I'm not sure which school teaches it, but it seems to prevail throughout many politicians' actions.
posted by CathyG at 8:39 AM on May 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've heard this philosophy described as "I got mine so fuck you". I'm not sure which school teaches it, but it seems to prevail throughout many politicians' actions.
posted by CathyG at 8:39 AM on May 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sorry, that should be 30 years.
We were the most equal, and have had the largest growth of inequality in the oecd.
However, our national self perception is that we are still equal, which makes it harder to make progress on this or accept there is a problem - same issue as Americans trying to address media freedoms and democracy, etc.
See:
income inequality stunts NZs growth
understand inequality
posted by Elysum at 8:50 AM on May 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
We were the most equal, and have had the largest growth of inequality in the oecd.
However, our national self perception is that we are still equal, which makes it harder to make progress on this or accept there is a problem - same issue as Americans trying to address media freedoms and democracy, etc.
See:
income inequality stunts NZs growth
understand inequality
posted by Elysum at 8:50 AM on May 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
But on that note, I am baffled by the dismissals that this one web comic does not have the the power to engage sweeping social changes. I mean, no shit. I see this same dismissal about protests, about direct action, and political organizing of any kind. Plucking the thing itself out of all context as if it's the only thing going on. It's a tool, guys, one tool out of a great many.
the problem is that this comic is for Richard and not Paula. This comic feels sorry for Paula; it's about convincing Richard to see Paula as one of the "deserving" poor. No one likes a pity party. Paula already understands why she is fucked (and it's not because her parents couldn't afford to give her educational toys), she needs to know what to do about it.
posted by ennui.bz at 1:06 PM on May 25, 2015
the problem is that this comic is for Richard and not Paula. This comic feels sorry for Paula; it's about convincing Richard to see Paula as one of the "deserving" poor. No one likes a pity party. Paula already understands why she is fucked (and it's not because her parents couldn't afford to give her educational toys), she needs to know what to do about it.
posted by ennui.bz at 1:06 PM on May 25, 2015
the problem is that this comic is for Richard and not Paula.
I would say that the problem is that you feel it necessary to ask "What's the point?" and generally shit all over it because it isn't the perfect amazing thing that you would apparently produce, given the opportunity to write a comic on the web. If only there were a way you could surmount that barrier...
posted by Etrigan at 1:47 PM on May 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would say that the problem is that you feel it necessary to ask "What's the point?" and generally shit all over it because it isn't the perfect amazing thing that you would apparently produce, given the opportunity to write a comic on the web. If only there were a way you could surmount that barrier...
posted by Etrigan at 1:47 PM on May 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
it's not because her parents couldn't afford to give her educational toys
Actually that's a big part of the problem, for many people - not educational toys specifically, but at-home learning enrichment more generally. The lack of that type of enrichment is a huge cause of summer learning loss, which accounts for large portion of the achievement gap.
posted by heisenberg at 2:23 PM on May 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
Actually that's a big part of the problem, for many people - not educational toys specifically, but at-home learning enrichment more generally. The lack of that type of enrichment is a huge cause of summer learning loss, which accounts for large portion of the achievement gap.
posted by heisenberg at 2:23 PM on May 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
Hi,
I'm a 'Paula', and like several other commenters have already stated, actually, it is good for each perspective, because it reminds me when I'm feeling like a failure - because I'm really smart, and should have achieved more in life, blah blah blah, that actually, I didn't have the same background as most of the people I compare myself too, and that maybe I am at least average.
Finally, no, people don't generally want to be poor, or want their children to be poor, so maybe we can stop blaming the peasants and their 'poor' parenting for the fact that a few percent of the population have a magnitude more wealth than the bottom half of the population, because this is a structural issue which we have dealt with better in the past, and are failing to deal with today.
We have descended to, what? The same level of inequality as early 19th century, 18-something? And by every measure (except for that of "I've got mine") this is worse for society, worse for productivity, worse for efficiency. Giving children and adults the best shot at reaching their maximum potential benefits everyone.
posted by Elysum at 3:12 PM on May 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm a 'Paula', and like several other commenters have already stated, actually, it is good for each perspective, because it reminds me when I'm feeling like a failure - because I'm really smart, and should have achieved more in life, blah blah blah, that actually, I didn't have the same background as most of the people I compare myself too, and that maybe I am at least average.
Finally, no, people don't generally want to be poor, or want their children to be poor, so maybe we can stop blaming the peasants and their 'poor' parenting for the fact that a few percent of the population have a magnitude more wealth than the bottom half of the population, because this is a structural issue which we have dealt with better in the past, and are failing to deal with today.
We have descended to, what? The same level of inequality as early 19th century, 18-something? And by every measure (except for that of "I've got mine") this is worse for society, worse for productivity, worse for efficiency. Giving children and adults the best shot at reaching their maximum potential benefits everyone.
posted by Elysum at 3:12 PM on May 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
We're at late 19th, early 20th century levels of inequality - which is better than the early 19th century, but that's really low bar.
posted by jb at 5:43 PM on May 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jb at 5:43 PM on May 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have met very few people as privileged as Richard who actually think their fortunes are strictly the result of their own efforts. It seems like more of a trope than a reality.
I'm really sad to call bullshit on this one but I must. I really must.
Case in point is an in-law who leans very strongly conservative and doesn't see the blindness and idoicy they're spouting for what it is. Case in point, we were discussing inequality (much like that discussed in the comic) and the dialog went something like this, I'm not the greatest debater for moments like this so the cause for liberalism and common sense and ... just fucking human decency doesn't get the hero it deserves with me, anyway
RoE: Right but how can you say *stupid, naive, and conservative-talking-point thing about bootstraps and opportunity* because you do realize there are entire counties in Alabama where the poverty rate is damn near 50%? How do you account for that?
In-Law: Well it's not because they're not given the chance. ... because America! And look at me, I didn't have the things I've gained handed to me, I earned them.
RoE: Dude, seriously? We were just talking about the invite list to your wedding and how you needed to trim it down and your parents would have a shitfit if you took off the US Senator who nominated you* for the service academy you went to because he's also your fucking Godfather. I did JROTC in high school and can give an example that is literally the other side of that shit-sandwich, I mean coin, as in she had the grades, JROTC skills/experience, and scores to go to any school she wanted to but she didn't get the (*required for admission, unless your parent recieved theMedal Of Honor I suppose) nomination from a politician. So her dream ended then and there, she went enlisted out of despair but that's a helluva downgrade right off the bat.
Idiot In-law, trying to steer things back to my original attack path: Well, if I was placed down into any one of those counties that are so poor that you mentioned, with nothing but the clothes on my back, I can guarantee that within 2 or 3 years I'd be making good money and damn near running the place if I set my mind to it.
RoE, giving up but unable to resist giving a parting jab: Whatever, you're unable to admit that's the problem right there. It's probably true that even without anything besides the clothes on your back you'd be in better shape than the average person there within a few short years. You know why?
Idiot, who will go to his grave thinking this is the right answer: Because I'm not afraid to work for things.
RoE, as the beer is chugged and before heading up to bed before the family is well and truly sundered: Nah man, it's because under those clothes on your back you're still white, college educated, not mired in debt, healthy, and in possession of connections that you also know how/when to leverage. These other poor fuckers born into life with 8 brothers/sisters, on welfare their entire life, with no father, maybe no mother, raised by a grandmother/father/aunt/sibling who was working 2 jobs... it's not an even playing field man.
Bootstraps my ass, folks that can't see things the way they are make me sick.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:56 PM on May 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm really sad to call bullshit on this one but I must. I really must.
Case in point is an in-law who leans very strongly conservative and doesn't see the blindness and idoicy they're spouting for what it is. Case in point, we were discussing inequality (much like that discussed in the comic) and the dialog went something like this, I'm not the greatest debater for moments like this so the cause for liberalism and common sense and ... just fucking human decency doesn't get the hero it deserves with me, anyway
RoE: Right but how can you say *stupid, naive, and conservative-talking-point thing about bootstraps and opportunity* because you do realize there are entire counties in Alabama where the poverty rate is damn near 50%? How do you account for that?
In-Law: Well it's not because they're not given the chance. ... because America! And look at me, I didn't have the things I've gained handed to me, I earned them.
RoE: Dude, seriously? We were just talking about the invite list to your wedding and how you needed to trim it down and your parents would have a shitfit if you took off the US Senator who nominated you* for the service academy you went to because he's also your fucking Godfather. I did JROTC in high school and can give an example that is literally the other side of that shit-sandwich, I mean coin, as in she had the grades, JROTC skills/experience, and scores to go to any school she wanted to but she didn't get the (*required for admission, unless your parent recieved theMedal Of Honor I suppose) nomination from a politician. So her dream ended then and there, she went enlisted out of despair but that's a helluva downgrade right off the bat.
Idiot In-law, trying to steer things back to my original attack path: Well, if I was placed down into any one of those counties that are so poor that you mentioned, with nothing but the clothes on my back, I can guarantee that within 2 or 3 years I'd be making good money and damn near running the place if I set my mind to it.
RoE, giving up but unable to resist giving a parting jab: Whatever, you're unable to admit that's the problem right there. It's probably true that even without anything besides the clothes on your back you'd be in better shape than the average person there within a few short years. You know why?
Idiot, who will go to his grave thinking this is the right answer: Because I'm not afraid to work for things.
RoE, as the beer is chugged and before heading up to bed before the family is well and truly sundered: Nah man, it's because under those clothes on your back you're still white, college educated, not mired in debt, healthy, and in possession of connections that you also know how/when to leverage. These other poor fuckers born into life with 8 brothers/sisters, on welfare their entire life, with no father, maybe no mother, raised by a grandmother/father/aunt/sibling who was working 2 jobs... it's not an even playing field man.
Bootstraps my ass, folks that can't see things the way they are make me sick.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:56 PM on May 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
Toby talks about the response to the comic and what he was trying to do.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:33 PM on May 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 3:33 PM on May 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
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