Questions about open source software, women, and fandom
May 28, 2015 6:22 AM Subscribe
Sumana Harihareswara, contributor to open source projects including Wikimedia and GNOME, asks a question: where are the women in the history of open source?
And another question: What if free and open source software were more like fandom?"
If you ask some people about the history of free software, you hear about Richard Stallman creating the GNU Public License and formulating the Four Freedoms...
Some people will tell you a bit about Stallman, and then discuss how Eric S. Raymond wrote “The Cathedral and the Bazaar” and articulated more pragmatic language for open source folks to use, and how permissive licenses helped popularize open source...
But in any case — where the fuck are the women?
And another question: What if free and open source software were more like fandom?"
Many of us are in open stuff (fanfic, FLOSS, and all the other nooks and crannies) because we like to make each other happy. And not just in an abstract altruistic way, but because sometimes we get to see someone accomplish something they couldn’t have before, or we get comments full of happy squee when we make a vid that makes someone feel understood. It feels really good when someone notices that I’ve entered a room, remembers that they value me and what I’ve contributed, and greets me with genuine enthusiasm. We could do a lot better in FLOSS if we recognized the value of social grooming and praise — in our practices and in time-consuming conversations, not just in new technical features like a friction-free Thanks button.
I recognize a lot of fandom in open source, provided we're talking about fandom as it existed 25 years ago. Bad ideas die hard, especially when they have institutional support, and the insistence from old-guard jackasses like ESR that they don't see discrimination because code doesn't have a gender echoes that same meticulously groomed ignorance and willful blindness of a much whiter, way more narrowminded fandom of ages past.
It's no mistake that much older, more conservative communities - Debian, many of the GNU projects, others - have miserable diversity numbers and aren't doing anything about them, but newer communities that are making aggressive efforts to treat this like a real problem that needs solving - Drupal, the PyCon team, others - are putting the work in and moving the needle.
posted by mhoye at 6:52 AM on May 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's no mistake that much older, more conservative communities - Debian, many of the GNU projects, others - have miserable diversity numbers and aren't doing anything about them, but newer communities that are making aggressive efforts to treat this like a real problem that needs solving - Drupal, the PyCon team, others - are putting the work in and moving the needle.
posted by mhoye at 6:52 AM on May 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
FWIW, the GNOME project working with the Software Freedom Conservancy runs Outreachy which is a fairly major effort specifically targeted at attracting more under represented groups.
One thing I'd love to see more of are non-developers contributing to FOSS. If we had as many graphic designers, writers, etc as we do programmers, I think almost every aspect of the movement (including the programmers) would benefit.
posted by Poldo at 7:10 AM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
One thing I'd love to see more of are non-developers contributing to FOSS. If we had as many graphic designers, writers, etc as we do programmers, I think almost every aspect of the movement (including the programmers) would benefit.
posted by Poldo at 7:10 AM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
To put the PyCon board's work in perspective, at the last PyCon that there was a lineup for the women's bathroom. Real talk: how often does that happen at your tech conference?
(A bit of self-promotion: I work on community building at Mozilla; I gave a presentation on the topic last year on the basics of having your open-source community not suck. MeMail me if you'd like to talk about it.)
posted by mhoye at 7:11 AM on May 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
(A bit of self-promotion: I work on community building at Mozilla; I gave a presentation on the topic last year on the basics of having your open-source community not suck. MeMail me if you'd like to talk about it.)
posted by mhoye at 7:11 AM on May 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
FOSS has a substantial organic track record of creating things that people want, and value. Not all things (how's that Linux on the mainstream desktop thing going?) and not perfectly. Maybe such projects, managed differently, would be better. Maybe they would just be different. Either way, interesting questions to ask.
posted by theorique at 7:34 AM on May 28, 2015
posted by theorique at 7:34 AM on May 28, 2015
See: "Patches don't have gender" on this topic by Dawn Nafus from Intel Labs.
posted by lalochezia at 7:41 AM on May 28, 2015
posted by lalochezia at 7:41 AM on May 28, 2015
It's not just women who have difficulties with OSS development. I'm a seething vipers-nest of white male privilege, an absolute bastard bum-flashing gorilla of the entitled Western elite, a rabid supporter of open and free, more than comfortable with the nature of software projects, and I can't hack it. I've had enough unpleasant responses from developers when I've tried (with all the tact, good humour and people skills at my disposal) to suggest a feature or a bug-fix, or even just tried to open a dialogue, to not want to poke my dangly bits into that hole again.
I don't have developer chops myself - too rusty and out of touch with modern tools, although I've been a competent bitslinger in the past - but I know what it's about, and can and would happily contribute UX and writerly/editorial skills to projects I felt worthwhile. I cannot see how to do that; is there a general volunteer/project exchange forum anywhere? If I'm too burned to join up in a field where I've got loads of cultural and technical history, I absolutely understand why it's anathema to most sane people.
posted by Devonian at 7:46 AM on May 28, 2015 [17 favorites]
I don't have developer chops myself - too rusty and out of touch with modern tools, although I've been a competent bitslinger in the past - but I know what it's about, and can and would happily contribute UX and writerly/editorial skills to projects I felt worthwhile. I cannot see how to do that; is there a general volunteer/project exchange forum anywhere? If I'm too burned to join up in a field where I've got loads of cultural and technical history, I absolutely understand why it's anathema to most sane people.
posted by Devonian at 7:46 AM on May 28, 2015 [17 favorites]
Does anyone have some kind of statistics whether the "women in OSS" ratio is worse or better than "women in IT" ratio? Because right now I don't see anything really special about OSS compared to "regular" IT. OSS has entered the enterprise on the one hand, and one the other hand you've got enough students and amateurs doing proprietary "app" development, so it's no longer a "corporate" vs. "hobbyist" dichotomy.
posted by pseudocode at 8:07 AM on May 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by pseudocode at 8:07 AM on May 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
It’s much worse in OSS. See Hanna Wallach’s 2011 presentation for some numbers. Short version: about 2% of open source developers are women, whereas about 28% of proprietary software developers are women (although that latter figure seems a bit high to me - the places I’ve worked at have been more like 15%.)
As to why this is, well lots of reasons, not least that OSS seems to attract some of the worst kind of men who actively work to exclude women “behind the scenes” in ways which don’t always come to the public attention of the rest of the developers - consider the Debian developer who went round belittling and threatening women for a number of years as a representative example. Sure, eventually the Debian project threw him out, but it took a long time before enough people were aware of his behaviour for something to be done about it. There’s a visibility problem where a small number of mendacious people can cause havoc behind the scenes whilst the majority remain blissfully unaware & convinced that if they aren’t being sexist & they never see anything sexist happening then there isn’t a problem.
Ironically, the imperfect corporate world is much better at shutting this kind of shit down than the oh so counter-corporate OSS crowd.
posted by pharm at 8:26 AM on May 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
As to why this is, well lots of reasons, not least that OSS seems to attract some of the worst kind of men who actively work to exclude women “behind the scenes” in ways which don’t always come to the public attention of the rest of the developers - consider the Debian developer who went round belittling and threatening women for a number of years as a representative example. Sure, eventually the Debian project threw him out, but it took a long time before enough people were aware of his behaviour for something to be done about it. There’s a visibility problem where a small number of mendacious people can cause havoc behind the scenes whilst the majority remain blissfully unaware & convinced that if they aren’t being sexist & they never see anything sexist happening then there isn’t a problem.
Ironically, the imperfect corporate world is much better at shutting this kind of shit down than the oh so counter-corporate OSS crowd.
posted by pharm at 8:26 AM on May 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
Hi y'all! I'm happy that this set of essays caught MeFi's attention. The MetaFilter audience includes several people more versed than I in the history of feminist philosophy and feminist technology, so I'd love your suggestions regarding whose work hasn't been properly recognized by the standard FLOSS narratives as part of the history of thought on this topic.
As I said in my Crooked Timber piece: Approximately every field in history has suppressed or hidden contributions by women, so I figure it’s safe to assume that open source philosophy is similar, and proceed on that basis. Whom am I missing?
And since there are so many people on MeFi who also participate in fandom, I'd love your thoughts on my question at the end of the GeekFeminism piece as well (the "What else?" section).
posted by brainwane at 8:43 AM on May 28, 2015 [15 favorites]
As I said in my Crooked Timber piece: Approximately every field in history has suppressed or hidden contributions by women, so I figure it’s safe to assume that open source philosophy is similar, and proceed on that basis. Whom am I missing?
And since there are so many people on MeFi who also participate in fandom, I'd love your thoughts on my question at the end of the GeekFeminism piece as well (the "What else?" section).
posted by brainwane at 8:43 AM on May 28, 2015 [15 favorites]
It’s much worse in OSS. See Hanna Wallach’s 2011 presentation for some numbers. Short version: about 2% of open source developers are women, whereas about 28% of proprietary software developers are women
Thanks a lot for the info! Still, looking at the citations, it seems that the 28% number comes from the amount of CS bachelor degrees in 2001 (down from 37% in 1985), and the OSS number comes from an online survey in 2002.
posted by pseudocode at 8:52 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thanks a lot for the info! Still, looking at the citations, it seems that the 28% number comes from the amount of CS bachelor degrees in 2001 (down from 37% in 1985), and the OSS number comes from an online survey in 2002.
posted by pseudocode at 8:52 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Honestly, this sort of baffles me.
One of the key reasons that open source is different from other fields of pursuit is that generally the gender (and race, etc) are completely hidden much of the time and really not obvious most of the rest of the time.
Most of the open source interactions I have with people are though their github account, and the majority of those have no picture that reveals anything about the person. You eventually do find out more about them as you get emails, but the initial impression is very neutral - you'd think it'd be a safe place for non-males.
But as far as I know, there's only one woman I ever interact with in the open source world (and she's trans).
The ratio seems much worse than any company I've ever worked at....
on preview: > a small number of mendacious people can cause havoc behind the scenes
GAG. You might well be right on that - it would explain a lot.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:53 AM on May 28, 2015
One of the key reasons that open source is different from other fields of pursuit is that generally the gender (and race, etc) are completely hidden much of the time and really not obvious most of the rest of the time.
Most of the open source interactions I have with people are though their github account, and the majority of those have no picture that reveals anything about the person. You eventually do find out more about them as you get emails, but the initial impression is very neutral - you'd think it'd be a safe place for non-males.
But as far as I know, there's only one woman I ever interact with in the open source world (and she's trans).
The ratio seems much worse than any company I've ever worked at....
on preview: > a small number of mendacious people can cause havoc behind the scenes
GAG. You might well be right on that - it would explain a lot.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:53 AM on May 28, 2015
As sort of a subset of PyCon, in a way, this year's DjangoCon has an explicit diversity policy and grants.
posted by signal at 9:17 AM on May 28, 2015
posted by signal at 9:17 AM on May 28, 2015
One of the key reasons that open source is different from other fields of pursuit is that generally the gender (and race, etc) are completely hidden much of the time and really not obvious most of the rest of the time.
Most of the open source interactions I have with people are though their github account, and the majority of those have no picture that reveals anything about the person. You eventually do find out more about them as you get emails, but the initial impression is very neutral - you'd think it'd be a safe place for non-males.
Actually, the environment you describe is going to be less safe for members who don't conform to the norms of that community, precisely because they are forced to conceal their actual identity in order to fit in, with the worry that if the mask slips, one will be outed. Safe communities are ones where individuals can present as they are, without worrying about that having a detrimental effect.
To reference the famous cartoon, it's not enough for people to not know you are a dog - they need to not care that you are one.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:24 AM on May 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
Most of the open source interactions I have with people are though their github account, and the majority of those have no picture that reveals anything about the person. You eventually do find out more about them as you get emails, but the initial impression is very neutral - you'd think it'd be a safe place for non-males.
Actually, the environment you describe is going to be less safe for members who don't conform to the norms of that community, precisely because they are forced to conceal their actual identity in order to fit in, with the worry that if the mask slips, one will be outed. Safe communities are ones where individuals can present as they are, without worrying about that having a detrimental effect.
To reference the famous cartoon, it's not enough for people to not know you are a dog - they need to not care that you are one.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:24 AM on May 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's certainly not the only reason, but we already know that being "a woman on the internet" can prompt a vicious backlash from a certain section of the male world. If you apply that mindset to self-perceived "male spaces" like OSS projects then you can see that a small minority can create a toxic environment for women if they're not actively opposed by the majority.
Combine that toxic process with the "stereotype threat" disadvantages that any minority group tends to suffer from & leads to minority group self excluding themselves from OSS and you have a "perfect storm" of gender elimination.
posted by pharm at 9:24 AM on May 28, 2015
Combine that toxic process with the "stereotype threat" disadvantages that any minority group tends to suffer from & leads to minority group self excluding themselves from OSS and you have a "perfect storm" of gender elimination.
posted by pharm at 9:24 AM on May 28, 2015
whereas about 28% of proprietary software developers are women (although that latter figure seems a bit high to me - the places I’ve worked at have been more like 15%.)
That number comes from a survey designed to measure the success/ failure of 4 year degree educated women in STEM fields. It lumps in a variety of ancillary roles in IT. Database administration, project management, helpdesk supervisor, etc; roles you generally don't see in open source projects, specifically because it's a hobby not a corporate job. The study is also designed to find 4 year degree holding respondents, and university administration bloggers I read mention that men tend to drop out at much higher rates than women, especially as economies recover. So for that reason and others, the 28 percent number is the industrial apple to the hobbyist 2 percent orange.
The reason you see it quoted so much is because the quoters intend to use the sensational discrepancy to gather attention to the cause, rather than benchmark progress towards an achievable goal.
posted by pwnguin at 9:27 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
That number comes from a survey designed to measure the success/ failure of 4 year degree educated women in STEM fields. It lumps in a variety of ancillary roles in IT. Database administration, project management, helpdesk supervisor, etc; roles you generally don't see in open source projects, specifically because it's a hobby not a corporate job. The study is also designed to find 4 year degree holding respondents, and university administration bloggers I read mention that men tend to drop out at much higher rates than women, especially as economies recover. So for that reason and others, the 28 percent number is the industrial apple to the hobbyist 2 percent orange.
The reason you see it quoted so much is because the quoters intend to use the sensational discrepancy to gather attention to the cause, rather than benchmark progress towards an achievable goal.
posted by pwnguin at 9:27 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
It lumps in a variety of ancillary roles in IT. Database administration, project management, helpdesk supervisor, etc; roles you generally don't see in open source projects, specifically because it's a hobby not a corporate job.
Considering that open source has routine need for all those "ancillary roles" (which are actually far from ancillary, a they tend to be the unsexy and unseen support roles that keep things working), the "hobby" argument is a bit silly, in my opinion.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:34 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Considering that open source has routine need for all those "ancillary roles" (which are actually far from ancillary, a they tend to be the unsexy and unseen support roles that keep things working), the "hobby" argument is a bit silly, in my opinion.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:34 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
FLOSS is and always has been pretty dependent on free labor. I've worked in open source development, and while the 'neckbeard living in his mom's basement' is a mean stereotype, it doesn't come from nowhere. There is a sizeable contingent of developers who are very much dependent on their mothers and wives taking care of their basic needs. The free time and energy required to get into FLOSS development more often than not seems to depend on having someone else take care of domestic responsibilities.
We were fairly well paid in the open source companies I worked for, but several of my male coworkers were still either living with or near enough to their parents to have their moms doing their laundry, cooking their meals, cleaning, running errands, etc. for them.
That happens throughout the industry as a whole, but the trend is much more pronounced in open source in my experience.
That's probably not the only factor, but when you get into entrenched social patterns like that, it just starts feeding on itself and further solidifying the trends. It becomes more male-identified by sheer virtue of being male-dominated. And because of the sort of social, almost recreational nature of the FLOSS community, it starts picking up little social markers as well, like media, hobbies, and interests that don't have any direct bearing on the domain itself. So to be a 'good fit,' maybe you need to play video games or read comics or be conversant in science fiction trivia. I've worked in a couple of different companies where there was just porn floating around the place, being traded and kept on the development machines and things like that. And they just get so used to that sort of thing that I honestly believe they don't even notice the weird, offputting sort of culture they are immersed in.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:41 AM on May 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
We were fairly well paid in the open source companies I worked for, but several of my male coworkers were still either living with or near enough to their parents to have their moms doing their laundry, cooking their meals, cleaning, running errands, etc. for them.
That happens throughout the industry as a whole, but the trend is much more pronounced in open source in my experience.
That's probably not the only factor, but when you get into entrenched social patterns like that, it just starts feeding on itself and further solidifying the trends. It becomes more male-identified by sheer virtue of being male-dominated. And because of the sort of social, almost recreational nature of the FLOSS community, it starts picking up little social markers as well, like media, hobbies, and interests that don't have any direct bearing on the domain itself. So to be a 'good fit,' maybe you need to play video games or read comics or be conversant in science fiction trivia. I've worked in a couple of different companies where there was just porn floating around the place, being traded and kept on the development machines and things like that. And they just get so used to that sort of thing that I honestly believe they don't even notice the weird, offputting sort of culture they are immersed in.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:41 AM on May 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
precisely because they are forced to conceal their actual identity in order to fit in
Not to contradict your point, but I can't understand what you mean by this sentence. If the communication medium does not include gender markings, how is it the case that anyone is concealing their gender identity, much less feeling forced to conceal it in order to fit in? I can't see how concealment is a factor when the information is simply absent by default.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:05 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not to contradict your point, but I can't understand what you mean by this sentence. If the communication medium does not include gender markings, how is it the case that anyone is concealing their gender identity, much less feeling forced to conceal it in order to fit in? I can't see how concealment is a factor when the information is simply absent by default.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:05 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can't see how concealment is a factor when the information is simply absent by default.
Join me on mumble and I'll explain it to you.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:16 AM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Join me on mumble and I'll explain it to you.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:16 AM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
If the communication medium does not include gender markings, how is it the case that anyone is concealing their gender identity, much less feeling forced to conceal it in order to fit in? I can't see how concealment is a factor when the information is simply absent by default.
Because there's more to gender markers than some field that may or may not be filled in (and it's worth pointing out that choice may, in of itself, serve as a gender marker as well.) How we communicate, how we represent ourselves - these are just as capable of serving as gender markers.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:16 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because there's more to gender markers than some field that may or may not be filled in (and it's worth pointing out that choice may, in of itself, serve as a gender marker as well.) How we communicate, how we represent ourselves - these are just as capable of serving as gender markers.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:16 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
several of my male coworkers were still either living with or near enough to their parents to have their moms doing their laundry, cooking their meals, cleaning, running errands, etc. for them.
That happens throughout the industry as a whole, but the trend is much more pronounced in open source in my experience.
I've observed similar - on average, women tend to be more inclined toward having a balanced life and career with reasonable work hours. Conversely, there is a super-dedicated and idealistic subset of young men for whom working on OS software projects is more important than almost anything - financial compensation, a normal lifestyle, a girlfriend, and even sometimes personal hygiene. It is these latter types who seem to earn respect and rise to the top in "hacker culture". They may exist, but I certainly haven't seen nearly as many females who match this "obsessed" template.
posted by theorique at 10:23 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
That happens throughout the industry as a whole, but the trend is much more pronounced in open source in my experience.
I've observed similar - on average, women tend to be more inclined toward having a balanced life and career with reasonable work hours. Conversely, there is a super-dedicated and idealistic subset of young men for whom working on OS software projects is more important than almost anything - financial compensation, a normal lifestyle, a girlfriend, and even sometimes personal hygiene. It is these latter types who seem to earn respect and rise to the top in "hacker culture". They may exist, but I certainly haven't seen nearly as many females who match this "obsessed" template.
posted by theorique at 10:23 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can't see how concealment is a factor when the information is simply absent by default.
Join me on mumble and I'll explain it to you.
And that's a really good example of the problem - if you are concerned about your gender being an issue, and you're on a project that uses voice communication apps to make key decisions on the direction of the project, then you wind up with a very ugly dilemma - do you chance outing yourself and opening yourself up to those issues to have a say in the governance of the project, or do you forgo that say to keep yourself under the radar?
To say that is a shitty choice to make is a vast understatement.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:24 AM on May 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
Join me on mumble and I'll explain it to you.
And that's a really good example of the problem - if you are concerned about your gender being an issue, and you're on a project that uses voice communication apps to make key decisions on the direction of the project, then you wind up with a very ugly dilemma - do you chance outing yourself and opening yourself up to those issues to have a say in the governance of the project, or do you forgo that say to keep yourself under the radar?
To say that is a shitty choice to make is a vast understatement.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:24 AM on May 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
open source has routine need for all those "ancillary roles"
Just because there's a need doesn't mean volunteers show up. Nearly all the open source projects I interact with end up using lead developers as sysadmins, dbas, release planners etc. They rarely do a good job at it, know it, and have not been able to to recruit someone else into the job of 'being paged in the middle of the night because people can't download the current release .' If they're lucky and we have the money, I get to be that person. If I weren't being paid, I don't see myself volunteering for it.
But hey, I'm clearly biased by my interactions with communities in need. Show me some data that demonstrates that the typical open source software project is 'enterprise' now. Because the last data I've seen pretty dismal: over half of projects tracked by Ohloh have only one active annual contributor.
posted by pwnguin at 10:25 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just because there's a need doesn't mean volunteers show up. Nearly all the open source projects I interact with end up using lead developers as sysadmins, dbas, release planners etc. They rarely do a good job at it, know it, and have not been able to to recruit someone else into the job of 'being paged in the middle of the night because people can't download the current release .' If they're lucky and we have the money, I get to be that person. If I weren't being paid, I don't see myself volunteering for it.
But hey, I'm clearly biased by my interactions with communities in need. Show me some data that demonstrates that the typical open source software project is 'enterprise' now. Because the last data I've seen pretty dismal: over half of projects tracked by Ohloh have only one active annual contributor.
posted by pwnguin at 10:25 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, if partnered or child-having women are working the 'second shift' and carrying an uneven amount of domestic and child-rearing labor, then that cuts into the "sit around and put FLOSS stuff on your github" time.
posted by rmd1023 at 10:26 AM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 10:26 AM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Conversely, there is a super-dedicated and idealistic subset of young men for whom working on OS software projects is more important than almost anything - financial compensation, a normal lifestyle, a girlfriend, and even sometimes personal hygiene. It is these latter types who seem to earn respect and rise to the top in "hacker culture".
Which is a massive problem in hacker culture, for a number of reasons.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:29 AM on May 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Which is a massive problem in hacker culture, for a number of reasons.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:29 AM on May 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
Just because there's a need doesn't mean volunteers show up.
Which is a problem, but not in the way you think. Open source has a large free labor issue, and it's one that I doubt will remain tenable in the long run.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:32 AM on May 28, 2015
Which is a problem, but not in the way you think. Open source has a large free labor issue, and it's one that I doubt will remain tenable in the long run.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:32 AM on May 28, 2015
Join me on mumble and I'll explain it to you.
Sorry, never heard of it, so whatever point you are making here went over my head.
Maybe part of what seems jarring to me about this "concealment" idea is that I loved the old IRC culture which was pretty much the opposite of the "A/S/L" n00b nonsense you got on AOL: concealing one's age, gender, and other physical characteristics wasn't just common, it was expected. People who used or asked about "real names" were considered terminally clueless. There were people I chatted with for *years* without discovering the gender they identified with offline. That IRC culture is where I first heard about Linux and started getting into open-source projects. I can understand that there's a lot more to it than the sort of '90s cypherpunk idealism that I still identify with, but it's hard to square the idea that a pseudonymous, non-gender-marked space is somehow *worse* for "nonconforming" people when it has been, in my personal experience, an example of a radical and positive step toward safety for all. It may not exist anymore, but I don't believe it can't exist.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:42 AM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Sorry, never heard of it, so whatever point you are making here went over my head.
Maybe part of what seems jarring to me about this "concealment" idea is that I loved the old IRC culture which was pretty much the opposite of the "A/S/L" n00b nonsense you got on AOL: concealing one's age, gender, and other physical characteristics wasn't just common, it was expected. People who used or asked about "real names" were considered terminally clueless. There were people I chatted with for *years* without discovering the gender they identified with offline. That IRC culture is where I first heard about Linux and started getting into open-source projects. I can understand that there's a lot more to it than the sort of '90s cypherpunk idealism that I still identify with, but it's hard to square the idea that a pseudonymous, non-gender-marked space is somehow *worse* for "nonconforming" people when it has been, in my personal experience, an example of a radical and positive step toward safety for all. It may not exist anymore, but I don't believe it can't exist.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:42 AM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Mumble is a VOIP program that allows for group conferencing. It's popular among gamers because it's basically a more modern version of Ventrillo (which has gotten long in the tooth). I routinely use it when running complicated raids, because it's easier to shout that pain is coming than it is to type.
Which leads to the issue - environments where one can fit in by concealing one's gender work great - until you can't conceal your gender anymore.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:51 AM on May 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Which leads to the issue - environments where one can fit in by concealing one's gender work great - until you can't conceal your gender anymore.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:51 AM on May 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
I feel weird about the author's description of a hypothetical female-led tech project. All of its community-oriented qualities could be seen as interpretations of the classic stereotypes that women are more nurturing, stable, and responsible than men.
A subset of the open-source world hungers for these qualities, and they are not all (or even mostly) women. For example, Rust is known for its friendly community, and their effort to reach the broader programming world instead of just hardcore C++ developers has (IMO) paid off. But Rust is also technically state-of-the-art.
The author imagines "prioritizing a specific vision of community above the product." I think it's a false dichotomy. A good community will result in a better product by attracting more and better contributors.
posted by scose at 10:53 AM on May 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
A subset of the open-source world hungers for these qualities, and they are not all (or even mostly) women. For example, Rust is known for its friendly community, and their effort to reach the broader programming world instead of just hardcore C++ developers has (IMO) paid off. But Rust is also technically state-of-the-art.
The author imagines "prioritizing a specific vision of community above the product." I think it's a false dichotomy. A good community will result in a better product by attracting more and better contributors.
posted by scose at 10:53 AM on May 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's popular among gamers
Ahh, gamers. Fuck gamers; they ruined the computer industry.
only half joking
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:57 AM on May 28, 2015
Ahh, gamers. Fuck gamers; they ruined the computer industry.
only half joking
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:57 AM on May 28, 2015
At the same time, I don't want to dictate the terms of women gaining more ground in open source. I guess it just feels like an admission of defeat in a small way.
posted by scose at 10:57 AM on May 28, 2015
posted by scose at 10:57 AM on May 28, 2015
It's popular among gamers
And so, also with at least a subset of devs. See also Skype.
There were people I chatted with for *years* without discovering the gender they identified with offline.
I bet you discovered loads of men much sooner, though, precisely because they think of themselves as the default and drop clues indiscriminately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:08 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
And so, also with at least a subset of devs. See also Skype.
There were people I chatted with for *years* without discovering the gender they identified with offline.
I bet you discovered loads of men much sooner, though, precisely because they think of themselves as the default and drop clues indiscriminately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:08 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mars Saxman: Part of the problem is that in the absence of gender markers, there's an expectation that everyone is male, if you're a woman and be stuck with either letting some comment slide, or drawing attention to your gender by speaking up about it. "Nobody complains" doesn't necessarily mean "everyone's okay with it", and my experience is that women have been complaining about sexism in online spaces for 25 years or more. And IRC has been just as prone to it as AOL and USENET and BITNET chat and whatever else has been out there online. (see also https://xkcd.com/322/)
posted by rmd1023 at 11:10 AM on May 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:10 AM on May 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, a lot of women will explicitly avoid gender markers precisely to avoid the gendered abuse. As an example, back more than 5 years ago, female-named IRC bots got many times more abusive messages than male-named bots.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:13 AM on May 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:13 AM on May 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
From rmd1023's link:
The study found that female bots received on average 100 malicious private messages a day while the male bots received an average of 3.7.posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:17 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
For more on theories around women's underrepresentation in contemporary FLOSS communities, see Joseph Reagle's Free as in sexist?: Free culture and the gender gap (2013). I haven't read that whole article yet, but I'm linking to it because I find it useful that he brings up Freeman's concept of the "tyranny of structurelessness" in this context.
posted by milkweed at 11:26 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by milkweed at 11:26 AM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Geek Feminism wiki has some pretty good perspective on issues of women in FLOSS, but the short short version is that there's often a pervasive and near invisible assumption of straight cis maleness that leads to repeated background grunches for women in the field, whether they're 'out' or not.
And hell yes on the gender essentialism behind a lot of the attempts at inclusion. That's another delicate balance you run into as well, where women can't really reject gender stereotypes without being accused, by other women, of doing it out of some kind of internalized misogyny. Some of these things edge into pinkwashing territory at times, and that fandom model, much like pastel colors, is cool and should be available for those who prefer it, but it doesn't really appeal to me personally.
I'm all for creating new and varied models that allow more maximum inclusion, and gender plays a very big role in the system as it is, but I think we'd do best to simply approach this as inclusive of people who prefer those work styles.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:28 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
And hell yes on the gender essentialism behind a lot of the attempts at inclusion. That's another delicate balance you run into as well, where women can't really reject gender stereotypes without being accused, by other women, of doing it out of some kind of internalized misogyny. Some of these things edge into pinkwashing territory at times, and that fandom model, much like pastel colors, is cool and should be available for those who prefer it, but it doesn't really appeal to me personally.
I'm all for creating new and varied models that allow more maximum inclusion, and gender plays a very big role in the system as it is, but I think we'd do best to simply approach this as inclusive of people who prefer those work styles.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:28 AM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
If the communication medium does not include gender markings, how is it the case that anyone is concealing their gender identity
The English language uses gendered pronouns which means that when someone says something like "he just added a bugfix for foo" about a change a woman made that she is now in the awkward position of either correcting them (and risking harassment) or not (and allowing the default male assumption continue). I'd love if we could all adopt the singular they for talking about people of unknown genders but we're not there yet, especially in situations like this where there is already a high level of gender imbalance.
posted by metaphorever at 11:34 AM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
The English language uses gendered pronouns which means that when someone says something like "he just added a bugfix for foo" about a change a woman made that she is now in the awkward position of either correcting them (and risking harassment) or not (and allowing the default male assumption continue). I'd love if we could all adopt the singular they for talking about people of unknown genders but we're not there yet, especially in situations like this where there is already a high level of gender imbalance.
posted by metaphorever at 11:34 AM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
The disclosure thing is so weird and so fraught. If you disclose your gender early on, you'll be accused of attention seeking. If you wait too long, though, and end up integrated into an online community and THEN it comes out, you can get some very hostile reactions, as though you've betrayed and deceived them by not telling them sooner. I don't know if it's more that they're afraid they haven't been editing themselves for talking to lay-dees, or if they think it's some kind of stolen valor thing, where you've tricked them into taking you seriously or what, but it is very telling that some men are so shaken by the idea that they've been treating a woman as though she were a man.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:50 AM on May 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by ernielundquist at 11:50 AM on May 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
Great article, thanks. I find this kind of radical hospitality approach really attractive, as a woman in a technical field who has had some fantastic (yes, nurturing) female mentors and is prone to "well, actually"'s herself.
Ironically, the imperfect corporate world is much better at shutting this kind of shit down than the oh so counter-corporate OSS crowd.
Oh so true. Much how I prefer to work for corporations than small businesses or start-ups/research groups at this point, because there is a much greater guarantee of equality and stability (and therefore work-life balance, which as a woman, I must admit I appreciate).
The author imagines "prioritizing a specific vision of community above the product." I think it's a false dichotomy. A good community will result in a better product by attracting more and better contributors.
I do somewhat agree, and I think this approach is perhaps corrective-- when we value the product above all else, we let community crumble, and so this is a way of really pushing back. Or so it seems to me. It's the kind of thing which a concern troll could easily naysay ("we can't ignore product, we'll just end up group hugging out software that no one can use"), but which in practice is likely to yield good product also.
Part of the problem is that in the absence of gender markers, there's an expectation that everyone is male, if you're a woman and be stuck with either letting some comment slide, or drawing attention to your gender by speaking up about it.
Yes, as a woman, anonymity actually makes me nervous-- because I'm cool as long as I'm a default white male (or ball of pure energy, or whatever nerdy white males envision themselves as), but I'm constantly thinking about when my identity will slip, or when I might want to talk about something that relates to my femaleness, or use a pronoun, or use my voice, and then reactions will subtly (or not so subtly) change. Plus, it doesn't necessarily feel comfortable to be viewed as a "default" if I conceive of myself as a woman most of the time. To a white male, the neutrality of anonymity might feel like the default-- to me it feels "safe" but mildly off. If I talk about sexism, or want to say something that relates to my sexuality or gender-- even saying something like "I'm pregnant," or "my husband"-- I'm revealed. It's like how in the medical field (and in economics, and basically everything else), the male case is viewed as the default-- being female is a "complication." Well, I'm a complication, then. I'm something else. I'm not "default."
As for the idea that this kind of community is "giving in" to the notion that all women are nurturing community builders, I think that's fair-- especially in tech communities, where there might be a higher density of aspie types-- but on the other hand, there's no reason the community needs to be monolithic, and adding this kind of culture can only help to balance things. Personally, I'm a woman, and I would prefer this infinitely to the way things are now. It might be giving in, but I'm OK with "giving in" to the way I really feel, instead of trying to be more competitive, mean, supercilious, "masculine," etc. I have a low risk tolerance, I like to take showers, I want to have children, I embrace all this.
posted by easter queen at 11:51 AM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ironically, the imperfect corporate world is much better at shutting this kind of shit down than the oh so counter-corporate OSS crowd.
Oh so true. Much how I prefer to work for corporations than small businesses or start-ups/research groups at this point, because there is a much greater guarantee of equality and stability (and therefore work-life balance, which as a woman, I must admit I appreciate).
The author imagines "prioritizing a specific vision of community above the product." I think it's a false dichotomy. A good community will result in a better product by attracting more and better contributors.
I do somewhat agree, and I think this approach is perhaps corrective-- when we value the product above all else, we let community crumble, and so this is a way of really pushing back. Or so it seems to me. It's the kind of thing which a concern troll could easily naysay ("we can't ignore product, we'll just end up group hugging out software that no one can use"), but which in practice is likely to yield good product also.
Part of the problem is that in the absence of gender markers, there's an expectation that everyone is male, if you're a woman and be stuck with either letting some comment slide, or drawing attention to your gender by speaking up about it.
Yes, as a woman, anonymity actually makes me nervous-- because I'm cool as long as I'm a default white male (or ball of pure energy, or whatever nerdy white males envision themselves as), but I'm constantly thinking about when my identity will slip, or when I might want to talk about something that relates to my femaleness, or use a pronoun, or use my voice, and then reactions will subtly (or not so subtly) change. Plus, it doesn't necessarily feel comfortable to be viewed as a "default" if I conceive of myself as a woman most of the time. To a white male, the neutrality of anonymity might feel like the default-- to me it feels "safe" but mildly off. If I talk about sexism, or want to say something that relates to my sexuality or gender-- even saying something like "I'm pregnant," or "my husband"-- I'm revealed. It's like how in the medical field (and in economics, and basically everything else), the male case is viewed as the default-- being female is a "complication." Well, I'm a complication, then. I'm something else. I'm not "default."
As for the idea that this kind of community is "giving in" to the notion that all women are nurturing community builders, I think that's fair-- especially in tech communities, where there might be a higher density of aspie types-- but on the other hand, there's no reason the community needs to be monolithic, and adding this kind of culture can only help to balance things. Personally, I'm a woman, and I would prefer this infinitely to the way things are now. It might be giving in, but I'm OK with "giving in" to the way I really feel, instead of trying to be more competitive, mean, supercilious, "masculine," etc. I have a low risk tolerance, I like to take showers, I want to have children, I embrace all this.
posted by easter queen at 11:51 AM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ok, look, I'm not trying to argue with the article itself, or with the idea that there is rampant sexism in the computer industry today, or that mainstream sexist ideas have infected online communication to such a degree that people have largely forgotten that it wasn't always that way.
I'm just taking issue with the specific claim that "the environment you describe is going to be less safe for members who don't conform to the norms of that community, precisely because they are forced to conceal their actual identity in order to fit in". It may well be that it works that way right now, but this is not some immutable law of online sexism, and I say that because I was once part of an environment where concealing one's offline identity was explicitly part of the way we conformed to the norms of the community.
It was twenty years ago, it doesn't exist anymore, cyberspace was a different place then, and like so many other things the eternal September washed it all away. Just don't tell me it's impossible, because I was there, and I miss it, and I hope someday some part of it comes back.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:01 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm just taking issue with the specific claim that "the environment you describe is going to be less safe for members who don't conform to the norms of that community, precisely because they are forced to conceal their actual identity in order to fit in". It may well be that it works that way right now, but this is not some immutable law of online sexism, and I say that because I was once part of an environment where concealing one's offline identity was explicitly part of the way we conformed to the norms of the community.
It was twenty years ago, it doesn't exist anymore, cyberspace was a different place then, and like so many other things the eternal September washed it all away. Just don't tell me it's impossible, because I was there, and I miss it, and I hope someday some part of it comes back.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:01 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm just taking issue with the specific claim that "the environment you describe is going to be less safe for members who don't conform to the norms of that community, precisely because they are forced to conceal their actual identity in order to fit in". It may well be that it works that way right now, but this is not some immutable law of online sexism, and I say that because I was once part of an environment where concealing one's offline identity was explicitly part of the way we conformed to the norms of the community.
And yet a lot of us were also part of those sorts of communities, and what we saw was that the concealment didn't create an environment where everyone was non-gendered, but an environment of assumed gender. And if you let the mask slip, it was a lot worse for you if those assumptions were false instead of true. Not to mention that there were always a few Javiert Jrs around looking to ferret out the identity of those they suspected.
In a lot of ways, it was similar to the environment of DADT, and about as hostile to people who didn't conform to the group assumptions.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:15 PM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
And yet a lot of us were also part of those sorts of communities, and what we saw was that the concealment didn't create an environment where everyone was non-gendered, but an environment of assumed gender. And if you let the mask slip, it was a lot worse for you if those assumptions were false instead of true. Not to mention that there were always a few Javiert Jrs around looking to ferret out the identity of those they suspected.
In a lot of ways, it was similar to the environment of DADT, and about as hostile to people who didn't conform to the group assumptions.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:15 PM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
It may well be that it works that way right now, but this is not some immutable law of online sexism, and I say that because I was once part of an environment where concealing one's offline identity was explicitly part of the way we conformed to the norms of the community.
It was twenty years ago, it doesn't exist anymore, cyberspace was a different place then, and like so many other things the eternal September washed it all away. Just don't tell me it's impossible, because I was there, and I miss it, and I hope someday some part of it comes back.
Hi. I'm a woman. I was on the internet 20 years ago, heck, even 25 years ago, back when Prodigy was my main ISP and I also signed up for a local Freenet.
I went by the nick "oakley" on IRC (I wrote my own IRC clients, several over the years to adapt to its development), presented as neutrally as possible and was REGULARLY outed as a woman, with all the shitty shit crappy bullshit fucking abusive stalker death threat nonsense that entailed.
Having a hard time not ranting here.
Look. When people, especially people who live different experiences than you, tell you about their experiences, you should perhaps have as your default assumption that they are likely to be telling the truth and maybe it is your assumptions and lived experiences that are lacking.
posted by fraula at 12:16 PM on May 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
It was twenty years ago, it doesn't exist anymore, cyberspace was a different place then, and like so many other things the eternal September washed it all away. Just don't tell me it's impossible, because I was there, and I miss it, and I hope someday some part of it comes back.
Hi. I'm a woman. I was on the internet 20 years ago, heck, even 25 years ago, back when Prodigy was my main ISP and I also signed up for a local Freenet.
I went by the nick "oakley" on IRC (I wrote my own IRC clients, several over the years to adapt to its development), presented as neutrally as possible and was REGULARLY outed as a woman, with all the shitty shit crappy bullshit fucking abusive stalker death threat nonsense that entailed.
Having a hard time not ranting here.
Look. When people, especially people who live different experiences than you, tell you about their experiences, you should perhaps have as your default assumption that they are likely to be telling the truth and maybe it is your assumptions and lived experiences that are lacking.
posted by fraula at 12:16 PM on May 28, 2015 [18 favorites]
But that's exactly what I'm trying to do! NoxAeternum made a universal claim about online communication which did not have room for my actual lived experience and observation. I'm trying to say "hey it's a little more complicated than that". I'm not contradicting anyone who has had different experiences, I'm just saying that I had my experiences too.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:25 PM on May 28, 2015
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:25 PM on May 28, 2015
Yeah um every woman I've known in the field has both shown and not-shown their gender at different times. When they show it they get shit. When they don't show it they need to suppress who they are and tolerate an ongoing stream of sexist grunches, until one day out of frustration they let it slip, or someone aggressively sniffs the "not enough gender markers, maybe it's a lady!" possibility, and and then they get shit.
There's no "not getting shit for your gender" stance you can take that works. Which is a problem.
(And then when anyone raises this as a Topic To Discuss, a whole new level of horrorshow emerges as a men start voicing "women can't do math" / "women have soft heads" / "women only like pretty things" bullshit and then the computer is launched through the window in rage and you can't actually program on a shattered computer on the sidewalk outside, see?)
posted by ead at 12:29 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
There's no "not getting shit for your gender" stance you can take that works. Which is a problem.
(And then when anyone raises this as a Topic To Discuss, a whole new level of horrorshow emerges as a men start voicing "women can't do math" / "women have soft heads" / "women only like pretty things" bullshit and then the computer is launched through the window in rage and you can't actually program on a shattered computer on the sidewalk outside, see?)
posted by ead at 12:29 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mars, you're reporting the fact that you were blind to what was really going on, which is worth mentioning as testimony about the self perception of cis-male members of those groups.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:34 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:34 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Did you use third person pronouns at all? Discuss any sort of personal topics? Use metaphors or comparisons to lived experiences to explain abstract concepts?
I was internetting well before the eternal September too, and I was constantly misgendered, regardless of anonymity or how I identified. Maybe if the gendering were correct, maybe if I were interested in looking at sexy ladies and versed in urinal protocols, I wouldn't have noticed the assumptions.
I'm not saying your community didn't do that. It just seems like it would have to have had a much narrower scope and stricter social controls than I think I've seen just about anywhere.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:35 PM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was internetting well before the eternal September too, and I was constantly misgendered, regardless of anonymity or how I identified. Maybe if the gendering were correct, maybe if I were interested in looking at sexy ladies and versed in urinal protocols, I wouldn't have noticed the assumptions.
I'm not saying your community didn't do that. It just seems like it would have to have had a much narrower scope and stricter social controls than I think I've seen just about anywhere.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:35 PM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, whatever. I've said my piece, do what you all want.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:40 PM on May 28, 2015
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:40 PM on May 28, 2015
Hey, I'm not trying to fight with you. I can respect you bowing out of the conversation, but my point is that while neutral anonymous spaces might not be worse than the real world in terms of discrimination, this:
it's hard to square the idea that a pseudonymous, non-gender-marked space is somehow *worse* for "nonconforming" people when it has been, in my personal experience, an example of a radical and positive step toward safety for all
is not my experience; to me, it's like saying that closing our eyes makes us all less racist. It doesn't make us less racist, it makes us less perceptive. Or like someone said above-- it's like don't ask, don't tell. Does DADT make people safer? Maybe in a very utilitarian sense. But isn't actually a radical step toward creating equality for gay people. So nongendered spaces might be a cool and futurist way for an online community to operate (and I totally understand the appeal), but it's not actually moving forward toward a practicable solution.
In this community, no one disclosed their real name or gender-- but did no one ever talk about their relationships, their families, their health? Did they ever use pronouns? If you were talking to someone for years without knowing their gender, and you spoke about them to someone else, did you call them "he" or "she"? If the answer is "he," is that a radical and positive step?
I am not trying to go aggro on you or ignore what you experienced, but what you're describing is place where you felt comfortable being yourself and didn't know if other users were male or female. If you didn't know, it doesn't mean that women never felt any responsibility to conceal their gender. Many women subconsciously feel the need to hide their gender when they realize that they will be taken more seriously if they do. And if it was a space where family, health, relationships or gender weren't discussed, that's fine for an open source community, but it's not much of a broad solution to inequality.
If you were a woman in the military under DADT, it might be the "professional" thing to do not to talk about your girlfriend, but everybody else is going to be talking about their SO without a second thought. You can't talk about your girlfriend because it will give you away, but you deal with it, because that's the price of comradery. If someone else ten years later finds out you have a girlfriend, they might think, "wow, I never knew she was gay! For ten years I had no idea!" But it doesn't mean that you were not very particular about what type of information you disclosed about yourself. It wasn't a neutral space, it was a heteronormative space. Even if no one discussed their SO at all, it would be a heteronormative space.
posted by easter queen at 12:58 PM on May 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
it's hard to square the idea that a pseudonymous, non-gender-marked space is somehow *worse* for "nonconforming" people when it has been, in my personal experience, an example of a radical and positive step toward safety for all
is not my experience; to me, it's like saying that closing our eyes makes us all less racist. It doesn't make us less racist, it makes us less perceptive. Or like someone said above-- it's like don't ask, don't tell. Does DADT make people safer? Maybe in a very utilitarian sense. But isn't actually a radical step toward creating equality for gay people. So nongendered spaces might be a cool and futurist way for an online community to operate (and I totally understand the appeal), but it's not actually moving forward toward a practicable solution.
In this community, no one disclosed their real name or gender-- but did no one ever talk about their relationships, their families, their health? Did they ever use pronouns? If you were talking to someone for years without knowing their gender, and you spoke about them to someone else, did you call them "he" or "she"? If the answer is "he," is that a radical and positive step?
I am not trying to go aggro on you or ignore what you experienced, but what you're describing is place where you felt comfortable being yourself and didn't know if other users were male or female. If you didn't know, it doesn't mean that women never felt any responsibility to conceal their gender. Many women subconsciously feel the need to hide their gender when they realize that they will be taken more seriously if they do. And if it was a space where family, health, relationships or gender weren't discussed, that's fine for an open source community, but it's not much of a broad solution to inequality.
If you were a woman in the military under DADT, it might be the "professional" thing to do not to talk about your girlfriend, but everybody else is going to be talking about their SO without a second thought. You can't talk about your girlfriend because it will give you away, but you deal with it, because that's the price of comradery. If someone else ten years later finds out you have a girlfriend, they might think, "wow, I never knew she was gay! For ten years I had no idea!" But it doesn't mean that you were not very particular about what type of information you disclosed about yourself. It wasn't a neutral space, it was a heteronormative space. Even if no one discussed their SO at all, it would be a heteronormative space.
posted by easter queen at 12:58 PM on May 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
Bleh. I hate having to think about this.
This week I set up a github account because I finally decided on what I'm doing and need it for a course that starts next month. In researching my path I've read so many recommendations about getting involved in open source stuff as part of a learning process. I was all, cool I can do that eventually when I get more of a foundation going but now I'm all bleh, bleh and more bleh.
I just changed my github name to something more gender neutral to keep my options open. I'm sure as hell not going to decide how I'm going to present myself right now but I realized after reading all this that I should probably leave the option open.
Pisses me off that I even have to have this conversation with myself. Part of me is all 'fuck em, I am who I am' but the other part is all 'yeah that's cool and all but I only have so much energy and fortitude to be activisty and deal with crap. '
And it super sucks that just by not hiding the fact that I have boobs would even be activisty.
posted by Jalliah at 1:37 PM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
This week I set up a github account because I finally decided on what I'm doing and need it for a course that starts next month. In researching my path I've read so many recommendations about getting involved in open source stuff as part of a learning process. I was all, cool I can do that eventually when I get more of a foundation going but now I'm all bleh, bleh and more bleh.
I just changed my github name to something more gender neutral to keep my options open. I'm sure as hell not going to decide how I'm going to present myself right now but I realized after reading all this that I should probably leave the option open.
Pisses me off that I even have to have this conversation with myself. Part of me is all 'fuck em, I am who I am' but the other part is all 'yeah that's cool and all but I only have so much energy and fortitude to be activisty and deal with crap. '
And it super sucks that just by not hiding the fact that I have boobs would even be activisty.
posted by Jalliah at 1:37 PM on May 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
Jumping in here late, but...
I can't see how concealment is a factor when the information is simply absent by default.
Ignoring the subtle, accidental gender giveaways and 'forced to ignore douchey comments to preserve gender anonymity', I carefully manage my identity online, and that includes my gender identity. I have a number of very long-lived pseudonyms that I use in a number of fora and only in very rare cases do I ever use my legal name. (Generally only when forced to do so.)
And the thing is that, linking my real-world professional abilities and history (which are only a few degrees of separation from my legal identity) to the pseudonyms/email/chat/messaging/Github accounts needed to participate in FLOSS projects is another very non-trivial vector of hassle, potential exposure, and risk. All of that to put up with dickheads who have proven that they are proud to treat me like shit. No thanks! Maybe that seems overwrought, but that's how it is for me, and probably for a lot of folks.
posted by skye.dancer at 1:58 PM on May 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
I can't see how concealment is a factor when the information is simply absent by default.
Ignoring the subtle, accidental gender giveaways and 'forced to ignore douchey comments to preserve gender anonymity', I carefully manage my identity online, and that includes my gender identity. I have a number of very long-lived pseudonyms that I use in a number of fora and only in very rare cases do I ever use my legal name. (Generally only when forced to do so.)
And the thing is that, linking my real-world professional abilities and history (which are only a few degrees of separation from my legal identity) to the pseudonyms/email/chat/messaging/Github accounts needed to participate in FLOSS projects is another very non-trivial vector of hassle, potential exposure, and risk. All of that to put up with dickheads who have proven that they are proud to treat me like shit. No thanks! Maybe that seems overwrought, but that's how it is for me, and probably for a lot of folks.
posted by skye.dancer at 1:58 PM on May 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
RMS straddling the fine line between aspie antisocial and plain sexist, and ESR being a typical libertarian, homophobic, narcissistic, semi-PUA douchebro with delusions of grandeur who seriously thinks he channels the Great God Pan, as well as a long list of various incidents might have something to do with it. Honestly, the FLOSS community has always been horrible at this, personally I was just too ignorant to notice it much when I was a part of it.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:16 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:16 PM on May 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
easter queen, thanks for your thoughtful comments.
As for the idea that this kind of community is "giving in" to the notion that all women are nurturing community builders, I think that's fair... [but] adding this kind of culture can only help to balance things. Personally, I'm a woman, and I would prefer this infinitely to the way things are now. It might be giving in, but I'm OK with "giving in" to the way I really feel, instead of trying to be more competitive, mean, supercilious, "masculine," etc.
I totally understand. I really want this culture to happen. I care deeply about fixing the male-domination of software, and I will support any effort to change it, no matter what the strategy. I've spent a lot of time dwelling on "that's fucked up" but not enough on "how do we fix it", so my ideas are half-baked.
A part of me hopes the problem will be solved by an amazing badass female developer who swoops in with an algorithm to multiply matrices in O(n2) time, or an automatic parallelizing C++ compiler, or some other software holy grail achievement that finally makes the sexist haters shut up. But I guess that is my own male bias speaking, in the sense that I see a victory by technical achievement as somehow "better" than building a great community.
Under a different light, if you believe the progress of technology is inevitable - and I do, mostly - then those badass technical achievements become unremarkable. Reaching them while creating happiness and empowerment, instead of creating anger, alienation, and burnout, is much more valuable than reaching them a few years sooner.
posted by scose at 2:46 PM on May 28, 2015
As for the idea that this kind of community is "giving in" to the notion that all women are nurturing community builders, I think that's fair... [but] adding this kind of culture can only help to balance things. Personally, I'm a woman, and I would prefer this infinitely to the way things are now. It might be giving in, but I'm OK with "giving in" to the way I really feel, instead of trying to be more competitive, mean, supercilious, "masculine," etc.
I totally understand. I really want this culture to happen. I care deeply about fixing the male-domination of software, and I will support any effort to change it, no matter what the strategy. I've spent a lot of time dwelling on "that's fucked up" but not enough on "how do we fix it", so my ideas are half-baked.
A part of me hopes the problem will be solved by an amazing badass female developer who swoops in with an algorithm to multiply matrices in O(n2) time, or an automatic parallelizing C++ compiler, or some other software holy grail achievement that finally makes the sexist haters shut up. But I guess that is my own male bias speaking, in the sense that I see a victory by technical achievement as somehow "better" than building a great community.
Under a different light, if you believe the progress of technology is inevitable - and I do, mostly - then those badass technical achievements become unremarkable. Reaching them while creating happiness and empowerment, instead of creating anger, alienation, and burnout, is much more valuable than reaching them a few years sooner.
posted by scose at 2:46 PM on May 28, 2015
I agree, but also think it's not totally either/or, though (of course). It's more like, the kind of trailblazing female CS genius who might make that amazing achievement could have an easier time in tech because of better community, or she might not care at all and come out of nowhere and change the game even in the worst of circumstances. But as long as the tech field is growing and people are hiring programmers left and right, the vast majority of them are not going to be pushing the state-of-the-art, and it would probably be best for them to have supportive, professional communities in which to grow as developers. Even in spaces where you have very intelligent but non-genius employees (or straight-up geniuses), I don't see how better culture isn't a benefit. It's much better than the alternative: letting venture capitalists and people in charge collude with a cruel, bullying and sexist culture in a race to the bottom for tech work conditions.
posted by easter queen at 3:13 PM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by easter queen at 3:13 PM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was twenty years ago, it doesn't exist anymore, cyberspace was a different place then, and like so many other things the eternal September washed it all away. Just don't tell me it's impossible, because I was there, and I miss it, and I hope someday some part of it comes back.
Twenty years ago I was a pre-teen girl trying to pick a masculine screen name for myself on anonymous forums in order to avoid getting constant private pms and asl requests. I'm sure it seemed pretty blissfully gender neutral if you presented as male in the first place and never got that attention, but refusing to believe that your experience was an incomplete picture of the scene at the time is pretty wilful blindness.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:49 PM on May 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
Twenty years ago I was a pre-teen girl trying to pick a masculine screen name for myself on anonymous forums in order to avoid getting constant private pms and asl requests. I'm sure it seemed pretty blissfully gender neutral if you presented as male in the first place and never got that attention, but refusing to believe that your experience was an incomplete picture of the scene at the time is pretty wilful blindness.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:49 PM on May 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
hmmmm.... First thing that occurs to me is that in many past cases of solid OSS it is the one 10x programmer who makes it happen, and that takes serious motivation that often takes the shape of ego-driven-there-is-no-perfect-solution-it-all-sucks-only-I-can-make-this-happen. That basis is often inhabited by non-women.
There are also big projects based more on cooperation and those stand out to me anyway as having women involved (postgres, perl, angulapolymerwhatevergoogleisupto, etc). It was mentioned upthread but the first trans woman I could identify was a huge Perl contributor, pre and post (peri?) identity shift.
I see more evidence of women cranking it out in the "maker" space, which is to say you need to code and get your voltage on too. I am very curious as to why that is. My preteen daughter and her friends know what an arduino is, scratch, etc.
So I am no authority on any of this but it seems that women are among the hundreds of people who try to contribute to top-down projects, get pissed on from a great height, and move on to work that is less dependent on the ego for its energy source.
posted by drowsy at 4:42 PM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are also big projects based more on cooperation and those stand out to me anyway as having women involved (postgres, perl, angulapolymerwhatevergoogleisupto, etc). It was mentioned upthread but the first trans woman I could identify was a huge Perl contributor, pre and post (peri?) identity shift.
I see more evidence of women cranking it out in the "maker" space, which is to say you need to code and get your voltage on too. I am very curious as to why that is. My preteen daughter and her friends know what an arduino is, scratch, etc.
So I am no authority on any of this but it seems that women are among the hundreds of people who try to contribute to top-down projects, get pissed on from a great height, and move on to work that is less dependent on the ego for its energy source.
posted by drowsy at 4:42 PM on May 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Gender neutral spaces are male default spaces.
When I announced to my (admittedly assholish) family that I'd landed a freelance writing gig online with a game, the first fucking thing they all asked is "do they know you're a woman?"
Yeah they fucking do because I'm 'out', I talk about having a daughter and doing a school run, and sometimes pregnancy and breastfeeding, and being a woman in games, and all of that stuff. If I didn't do those things, then I'm assumed male.
Assumed male until otherwise proven female is not gender neutral, and that's exactly what a lot of spaces are. Shit, I've been assumed male here, and even assumed male on forums with a feminine username + female art avatar, because the assumed male default is SO integral to the space. I've had community wide surveys and polls assume, literally, that every single responder is male (ironically it was a survey about women in games...) and if you think that doesn't create a masculine-male space that actively excludes women and feminine experiences, you're working from the very same male default I'm talking about.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:52 PM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
When I announced to my (admittedly assholish) family that I'd landed a freelance writing gig online with a game, the first fucking thing they all asked is "do they know you're a woman?"
Yeah they fucking do because I'm 'out', I talk about having a daughter and doing a school run, and sometimes pregnancy and breastfeeding, and being a woman in games, and all of that stuff. If I didn't do those things, then I'm assumed male.
Assumed male until otherwise proven female is not gender neutral, and that's exactly what a lot of spaces are. Shit, I've been assumed male here, and even assumed male on forums with a feminine username + female art avatar, because the assumed male default is SO integral to the space. I've had community wide surveys and polls assume, literally, that every single responder is male (ironically it was a survey about women in games...) and if you think that doesn't create a masculine-male space that actively excludes women and feminine experiences, you're working from the very same male default I'm talking about.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:52 PM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
OK, here is what is sticking in my craw: I get that that 'fandom' model is a better model for a lot of people. It is not, however, for me, but I've been gendered into that sort of mold more than a few times by people who assumed that was how women worked. And frankly, that kind of thing is generally distracting to me and sometimes outright uncomfortable.
I can collaborate and work with others just fine, but too much social interaction wears me out and can be counterproductive. But I have to fight that expectation off constantly. Ideally, my work model consists of at least 90% me sitting quietly by myself doing stuff without anyone looking over my shoulder or bouncing things off me, and without being asked to narrate everything as I go along or calling attention to me as a person. I mean, I like to get credit for my work and all, but I actually once had a little talk with my boss about spending fifteen minutes to deliver thirty seconds of content, because he'd sandwich that information between encouraging praise and the motivational speeches about how important my work was. It was wasting my time, it was breaking my concentration, and it kind of just made me self conscious.
I get that not everyone shares my preferences, but when we start gendering this stuff about the importance of social grooming and praise and oh my god "happy squee," it just sort of makes me cringe because I've had those assumptions pointed at me all my life.
I mean, can we just call it something else? Just maybe classify it as a model that is inclusive of people who work socially, or who are motivated by interpersonal interaction or something? I'm a woman, and I'm really really tired of being othered and told that I'm some sort of outlier, whether it's because of my gender itself or my performance thereof.
posted by ernielundquist at 5:11 PM on May 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
I can collaborate and work with others just fine, but too much social interaction wears me out and can be counterproductive. But I have to fight that expectation off constantly. Ideally, my work model consists of at least 90% me sitting quietly by myself doing stuff without anyone looking over my shoulder or bouncing things off me, and without being asked to narrate everything as I go along or calling attention to me as a person. I mean, I like to get credit for my work and all, but I actually once had a little talk with my boss about spending fifteen minutes to deliver thirty seconds of content, because he'd sandwich that information between encouraging praise and the motivational speeches about how important my work was. It was wasting my time, it was breaking my concentration, and it kind of just made me self conscious.
I get that not everyone shares my preferences, but when we start gendering this stuff about the importance of social grooming and praise and oh my god "happy squee," it just sort of makes me cringe because I've had those assumptions pointed at me all my life.
I mean, can we just call it something else? Just maybe classify it as a model that is inclusive of people who work socially, or who are motivated by interpersonal interaction or something? I'm a woman, and I'm really really tired of being othered and told that I'm some sort of outlier, whether it's because of my gender itself or my performance thereof.
posted by ernielundquist at 5:11 PM on May 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm actually very introverted and tired out by social interaction, and I work best when I can work alone and concentrate for extended periods of time. I think the thing that really resonated with me about this isn't necessarily social grooming and praise and people getting in each other's faces, but the fact that in a lot of workplaces, the default is the opposite, and I'd much rather default toward being supportive and generous in the workplace than egoistic competition and WELL ACTUALLY oneupsmanship.
I used to have a crappy boss who did a lot of grooming and praise-- your job is so important, you guys are fundamental, blah blah-- but she never put her money where her mouth was, she always excluded my work group from important discussions, we were left out of teambuilding, information was withheld from us for no reason, and she tried to keep us in our place. It's not like I LOVE teambuilding and want to spend all my time with my coworkers, but now I have a boss who is very positive and transparent and clearly wants her supervisees to succeed, and it makes a big difference.
I think that there is possibly a gender rift where even women like myself who aren't particularly social (I am very often actively antisocial, when I need to recharge) would rather work cooperatively on a project than work competitively. So for me, it's less about wanting to be having a girl party and warm squee and more about feeling motivated by cooperation and healthy mentorship/mentoring.
And the test the author talks about, where they weed out people who become assholes under stress-- ingenious!
posted by easter queen at 7:33 PM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
I used to have a crappy boss who did a lot of grooming and praise-- your job is so important, you guys are fundamental, blah blah-- but she never put her money where her mouth was, she always excluded my work group from important discussions, we were left out of teambuilding, information was withheld from us for no reason, and she tried to keep us in our place. It's not like I LOVE teambuilding and want to spend all my time with my coworkers, but now I have a boss who is very positive and transparent and clearly wants her supervisees to succeed, and it makes a big difference.
I think that there is possibly a gender rift where even women like myself who aren't particularly social (I am very often actively antisocial, when I need to recharge) would rather work cooperatively on a project than work competitively. So for me, it's less about wanting to be having a girl party and warm squee and more about feeling motivated by cooperation and healthy mentorship/mentoring.
And the test the author talks about, where they weed out people who become assholes under stress-- ingenious!
posted by easter queen at 7:33 PM on May 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
but I know what it's about, and can and would happily contribute UX and writerly/editorial skills to projects I felt worthwhile. I cannot see how to do that; is there a general volunteer/project exchange forum anywhere?Here's one, and another here in the same vein. Projects with a published code of conduct and people in power to enforce it (ie: moderation) are essential.
posted by Poldo at 7:20 AM on May 29, 2015
It looks like there are a couple of different threads of potential development that we're seeing discussed.
(1) reaching out to women using the vectors of community building, UI/UX, "soft skills" and so forth.
(2) making the "hardcore" side of FOSS development (algorithms, C development, device drivers, kernel development) more welcoming to females.
There are challenges with both approaches. The first one can be accused of pandering and "gender essentialism" ("what are you saying, women are naturally better at community building and communication?"). The second one is a harder nut to crack, since the so-called "hardcore" skills are typically developed over a long career. Furthermore, these areas tend to be where the prickliest of old bearded male FOSS developers reside, and are thus most challenging for newbies of both sexes.
posted by theorique at 7:40 AM on May 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
(1) reaching out to women using the vectors of community building, UI/UX, "soft skills" and so forth.
(2) making the "hardcore" side of FOSS development (algorithms, C development, device drivers, kernel development) more welcoming to females.
There are challenges with both approaches. The first one can be accused of pandering and "gender essentialism" ("what are you saying, women are naturally better at community building and communication?"). The second one is a harder nut to crack, since the so-called "hardcore" skills are typically developed over a long career. Furthermore, these areas tend to be where the prickliest of old bearded male FOSS developers reside, and are thus most challenging for newbies of both sexes.
posted by theorique at 7:40 AM on May 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Assumed male until otherwise proven female is not gender neutral, and that's exactly what a lot of spaces are. Shit, I've been assumed male here, and even assumed male on forums with a feminine username + female art avatar, because the assumed male default is SO integral to the space. I've had community wide surveys and polls assume, literally, that every single responder is male (ironically it was a survey about women in games...) and if you think that doesn't create a masculine-male space that actively excludes women and feminine experiences, you're working from the very same male default I'm talking about.
I hate to repeat myself across threads, but we're talking about something a very similar to this over in the Theology Of Consensus thread - eliding a bits about the women's movement specifically, this quote speaks to exactly your point:
Ask yourself: why is it always M/F on surveys, when that's reverse alphabetical order? This is what David Foster Wallace called our unconscious, unthinking, default settings. Shit we just don't think about because of our reflexive - and very useful, to those in power - assumptions, below even the level of conscious though.
posted by mhoye at 11:22 AM on May 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I hate to repeat myself across threads, but we're talking about something a very similar to this over in the Theology Of Consensus thread - eliding a bits about the women's movement specifically, this quote speaks to exactly your point:
Thus structurelessness becomes a way of masking power, and [...] is usually most strongly advocated by those who are the most powerful (whether they are conscious of their power or not). As long as the structure of the group is informal, the rules of how decisions are made are known only to a few and awareness of power is limited to those who know the rules. Those who do not know the rules and are not chosen for initiation must remain in confusion, or suffer from paranoid delusions that something is happening of which they are not quite aware.... except we know what those "paranoid delusions" are in this case - they're the invisible default settings that were chosen by somebody who's not you, doesn't represent you or doesn't have your best interests in mind if they care about your interests at all.
Ask yourself: why is it always M/F on surveys, when that's reverse alphabetical order? This is what David Foster Wallace called our unconscious, unthinking, default settings. Shit we just don't think about because of our reflexive - and very useful, to those in power - assumptions, below even the level of conscious though.
posted by mhoye at 11:22 AM on May 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
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posted by grumpybear69 at 6:44 AM on May 28, 2015 [3 favorites]