Not quite bears discovering fire, but getting closer
June 12, 2015 12:06 AM   Subscribe

In the alpine grasslands of eastern Africa, Ethiopian wolves and gelada monkeys are giving peace a chance. The geladas – a type of baboon – tolerate wolves wandering right through the middle of their herds, while the wolves ignore potential meals of baby geladas in favour of rodents, which they can catch more easily when the monkeys are present.
The New Scientist reports on gelada monkeys domesticating wolves, as discovered by primatologist Vivek Venkataraman.
posted by MartinWisse (34 comments total) 38 users marked this as a favorite
 
But are the baboons domesticating the wolves or the wolves domesticating the monkeys? It doesn't look like the baboons are getting anything out of the deal - except for not getting eaten that is - so to me it looks more like the wolves are trying not to spook the baboons, because they find them more useful as a hunting tool rather than as prey.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:31 AM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]


However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship, since the wolves are unlikely to deter other predators such as leopards or feral dogs, he says. Without a reciprocal benefit, Sillero doubts that the relationship could progress further down the road to domestication.
posted by durandal at 12:34 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Maybe on the gelada side - but if anyone is interested my fantasy novel trilogy Kickstarter about a wolf civilization using domesticated monkeys for opposable thumbs will be open shortly.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:41 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]


> However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship, since the wolves are unlikely to deter other predators such as leopards or feral dogs, he says. Without a reciprocal benefit, Sillero doubts that the relationship could progress further down the road to domestication.

That's the really interesting thing here. In the majority of symbiotic relationships (I guess clue in the name, huh) there is a clear mutual benefit. E.g. cleaning symbiosis seems to be relatively common in the animal kingdom. On top of that their is usually a large size/threat disparity between the cleaner/cleanee but here the wolves are a clear threat to the gelada young.

One possibility is that the rodents do have some small negative effect on the geladas well being and it really is in some way symbiotic.
posted by Beware of the leopard at 12:43 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


But are the baboons domesticating the wolves or the wolves domesticating the monkeys?

This very question occurs to me every time Chelsea uses her magic eye powers to interrupt whatever I'm doing and make me feed her.
posted by flabdablet at 12:52 AM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]


Ah, doing a little bit of research on my part hints that maybe some variation of this Dear enemy effect is what is going on:
As territory owners become accustomed to their neighbours, they expend less time and energy on defensive behaviors directed toward one another. However, aggression toward unfamiliar neighbours remains the same.
So no need for a symbiotic relationship as such but, of course, as every research paper ends (in the forlorn hopes of sweet, sweet grant money further research is needed ;)
posted by Beware of the leopard at 12:55 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe on the gelada side - but if anyone is interested my fantasy novel trilogy Kickstarter about a wolf civilization using domesticated monkeys for opposable thumbs will be open shortly.

Sorry, Vernor Vinge already wrote it.
posted by digitalprimate at 12:55 AM on June 12, 2015 [15 favorites]


However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship

I would think the very fact of eliminating the threat from an entire predator species would be enough. The gelada are effectively paying protection.
posted by Palindromedary at 2:00 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]


However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship

I'm surprised that having the wolves wandering around isn't a deterrent to other predators.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:32 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship

Maybe the monkeys and the wolves are getting it on when nobody is looking. This guy has a theory that humans might be chimpanzee pig hybrids.
posted by bukvich at 5:33 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship

Which seems to make this whole idea of domestication absurd on its face. Why would the baboons domesticate wolves if there was nothing in it for them? Humans can at least point to the apparent satisfaction that comes from owning another living creature and keeping it as a captive, but would this motivate baboons? I don't think so.

The key here would seem to be that the baboons don't loose anything from the relationship and so long as there is a gain in it for the wolves - more tasty rats - and the wolves don't make themselves too unwelcome, the baboons just have to tolerate their presence. It's neither symbiotic or parasitic, it's just opportunistic.
posted by three blind mice at 5:35 AM on June 12, 2015


>> However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship

> I'm surprised that having the wolves wandering around isn't a deterrent to other predators.

I'd be more scared of the gelada's myself. Physically they seem much closer to a baboon (which they are also sometimes referred to as) and although this NatGeo piece is horribly overblown it looks like they can be pretty aggressive even though their society seems mostly peaceful: https://youtu.be/uDT0xSsrVIg?t=78

ChuraChura would probably know a hell of a lot more.
posted by Beware of the leopard at 5:36 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship

I'm surprised that having the wolves wandering around isn't a deterrent to other predators.


The sidebar at the end of the article says this:
The gelada case is comparable to what early domestication of dogs might have been like, says Claudio Sillero of the University of Oxford.

However, the geladas don't seem to get anything from the relationship, since the wolves are unlikely to deter other predators such as leopards or feral dogs, he says. Without a reciprocal benefit, Sillero doubts that the relationship could progress further down the road to domestication.


But doesn't offer any evidence for that assertion. And the Journal of Mammology is apparently one of those that is stingy with access to its content so I can't read more than the abstract, even from work (where I often have institutional access to academic journals). It seems to me that if wolves helped early humans by protecting them from predators then that could be the case here. A lifetime of watching nature documentaries has taught me that defense against predators often consists of making it just hard enough to get a meal that the predator will give up and go looking for easier pickings elsewhere. Perhaps someone with actual knowledge could tell us whether it is reasonable to say that the wolves don't offer any protective benefit to the geladas.
posted by TedW at 6:01 AM on June 12, 2015


This clip shows baboons doing the same with feral dogs. Warning: includes footage of baboons dragging puppies around by the tail.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:16 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


OK someone please draw me a monkey riding wolf-back, attack human civilization.
posted by Theta States at 6:28 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]




I know the current DNA stuff doesn't support it, but part of me has hoped that we'd find that domestication of dogs began before the full emergence of homo sapiens -- that having dogs is one of the things that made us fully human.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:35 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


really, though, does it still make sense to pursue this idea that humanness is biologically inherent? ever since I was a teenager I've been reading about how humans aren't complete without their culture, but we're still looking for this magical moment when we 'become human' genetically.
posted by lodurr at 6:38 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


gelada monkeys are giving peace a chance. The geladas – a type of baboon – tolerate wolves wandering right through the middle of their herds,

Do monkeys congregate in herds? Oh, right, it's the New Scientist.
posted by Nevin at 7:36 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


I would think the very fact of eliminating the threat from an entire predator species would be enough. The gelada are effectively paying protection.

More than just an entire species of predator. They will be effectively protected from all predator species that wolves can dominate/outcompete.
posted by srboisvert at 7:40 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


my fantasy novel trilogy Kickstarter about a wolf civilization using domesticated monkeys for opposable thumbs will be open shortly.

Throw in crows as co-collaborators with the wolves and you've got my twenty bucks.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:46 AM on June 12, 2015


They will be effectively protected from all predator species that wolves can dominate/outcompete.

Well, maybe. As noted, that's not necessarily the finding, though it's easy to see how it could end up there.
posted by lodurr at 7:46 AM on June 12, 2015


Throw in crows as co-collaborators with the wolves and you've got my twenty bucks.

I'm confused, how are they related to the cephalopod community?
posted by Octaviuz at 7:47 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


The cephalopods are too busy organizing their Jelly Marines to bother with the land animals.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:19 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Throw in crows as co-collaborators with the wolves and you've got my twenty bucks.
I'm confused, how are they related to the cephalopod community?
First they meet. They don't like each other. Next they fight. And then they respect each other. And then they become friends.
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:39 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


Nevin: Do monkeys congregate in herds? Oh, right, it's the New Scientist.

I share your disdain for New Scientist and the godawful state of media reporting of science in general but I think it this case they just chose the wrong collective noun. Probably should have used troop of baboons although the wikipedia article does refer to a herd so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
Herds consist of up to 60 reproductive units that are sometimes from different bands and last for short periods of time
Sorry, I'm veering dangerously close to pedantic arsehole if not already over the line as well as thread-sitting so I'll bow out now.
posted by Beware of the leopard at 9:13 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


baby monkey baby monkey best friends with a wolf baby monkey
posted by poffin boffin at 10:26 AM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


Sorry, I'm veering dangerously close to pedantic arsehole if not already over the line as well as thread-sitting so I'll bow out now.

This herd/troop mostly tolerates pedantic arseholes hunting amongst us as long as they don't make sudden zig zag movements.
posted by srboisvert at 10:50 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


posted by Beware of the leopard...

Beware of the leopard, indeed!
posted by TedW at 10:51 AM on June 12, 2015


Another one, two thousand years, - warg riders ?
posted by King Sky Prawn at 11:01 AM on June 12, 2015


I'm not going to pretend to know much about the history of dog/human domestication, but isn't it possible that wild canines, like charming but uninvited couch-surfers, might just insinuate their way into groups like this and let the reciprocal benefits become apparent to the group only in hindsight?
(Yes, most of my relationships with doggies have been largely one-sided. But they're so cute!)
posted by biddeford at 11:30 AM on June 12, 2015


i think there are probably parallels like that up to and including a history of predator/prey interactions, but i don't think we really need to worry until the monkeys start dressing the wolves up and carrying them around in fancy handbags.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


It seems very unlikely that wolf packs would not deter feral dogs. Packs of canines are territorial and go to war with each other. I don't see feral dogs approaching a wolf pack, geladas or no.
posted by musofire at 6:36 PM on June 12, 2015


I'm not sure it's inherently the case that wolf packs would inhibit feral dog attacks. Dogs often don't have the same behavioral constraints as wolves. They might well be more aggressive in a 'pack war' situation, since a lot of their wolf-like behaviors have been de-emphasized through breeding. I.e., where wolf packs might back off from pitched battle (because pitched battles are maladaptive), dogs might go all-in.

And you wouldn't necessarily even know from studying dog pack behavior, since their behavior is going to be inherently less predictable (give the higher relative degree of behavioral variation) than that of wolves.
posted by lodurr at 5:34 AM on June 14, 2015


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