Let me tell you about my trouble with girls
June 12, 2015 12:19 PM Subscribe
Sir Tim Hunt FRS, who received the The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 2001 for "discoveries of key regulators of the cell cycle" has resigned from his positions as Honorary Professor at University College London and member of the Royal Society's Biological Sciences Awards Committee after making controversial comments at the 2015 World Conference of Science Journalists in Seoul. He said:
"Let me tell you about my trouble with girls ... three things happen when they are in the lab ... You fall in love with them, they fall in love with you and when you criticise them, they cry."
The comments were widely criticized by academics, and many female scientists posted photographs to Twitter with the hastag #DistractinglySexy. On Facebook, people have posted photographs of entrances to their labs with novelty warning signs.
On the BBC radio 4 Today programme, he said that he "was really sorry that I said what I said" but that he "did mean the part about having trouble with girls".
Fiona Fox, chief executive of the Science Media Centre, says it is time to "call off the hunt", and expressed her sense of unease "when people are vilified, sacked or have their reputations trashed, in part because of a media storm".
Previously: There's No Crying in Graduate School, I see you are writing an academic article while being female..., We may get a shirt celebrating women in science., "The man" resigns.
The comments were widely criticized by academics, and many female scientists posted photographs to Twitter with the hastag #DistractinglySexy. On Facebook, people have posted photographs of entrances to their labs with novelty warning signs.
On the BBC radio 4 Today programme, he said that he "was really sorry that I said what I said" but that he "did mean the part about having trouble with girls".
Fiona Fox, chief executive of the Science Media Centre, says it is time to "call off the hunt", and expressed her sense of unease "when people are vilified, sacked or have their reputations trashed, in part because of a media storm".
Previously: There's No Crying in Graduate School, I see you are writing an academic article while being female..., We may get a shirt celebrating women in science., "The man" resigns.
Unfortunately, he is not by any means the first Nobel Laureate to be unapologetic about backward ideas when it comes to race or gender. (I'm thinking Shockley, but I'm looking at you, Watson).
posted by ubiquity at 12:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by ubiquity at 12:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
Sorry, Fiona, but this is not a hunt. This is an individual who has a good deal of authority in his field making an incredibly sexist and damaging remark in public, and then refusing to show any sort of acknowledgement (let alone contrition) of why his statement was so offensive and harmful. And as such, the scientific community is rightfully showing him the door.
In short, a media storm did not destroy Tim Hunt's reputation. Tim Hunt destroyed Tim Hunt's reputation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2015 [143 favorites]
In short, a media storm did not destroy Tim Hunt's reputation. Tim Hunt destroyed Tim Hunt's reputation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2015 [143 favorites]
I think what surprised me most about this was that the guy is seventy two years old and still talks about his trouble with "girls". That might be part of his trouble with girls, actually.
Joking about gender segregated labs? Pretty tasteless, also good luck with that, research-wise.
Joking about how awful it can be to mix romance and research? Appropriate for hanging out with friends and lamenting one's singleness but what kind of silly fool thinks that's appropriate talk at a conference?
posted by Frowner at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2015 [33 favorites]
Joking about gender segregated labs? Pretty tasteless, also good luck with that, research-wise.
Joking about how awful it can be to mix romance and research? Appropriate for hanging out with friends and lamenting one's singleness but what kind of silly fool thinks that's appropriate talk at a conference?
posted by Frowner at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2015 [33 favorites]
Hey, this whole situation is win-win. He leaves a lab where presumably he had to work with women and now can perhaps find a lab in which he doesn't. And vice-versa.
On a more serious not, his inability to regulate his feelings about -- and apparenty, behavior toward -- the women in his lab is nothing but his problem. If he can't, perhaps it's best he did resign.
posted by Gelatin at 12:28 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
On a more serious not, his inability to regulate his feelings about -- and apparenty, behavior toward -- the women in his lab is nothing but his problem. If he can't, perhaps it's best he did resign.
posted by Gelatin at 12:28 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I know this shouldn't be the surprising part, but Tim Hunt's wife is a scientist! This is how he thinks about the person he married?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:31 PM on June 12, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:31 PM on June 12, 2015 [33 favorites]
Sometimes I wonder if the reason that some very old, very famous scientists say very stupid or unpopular things is because they have actually lost some functioning to age, but it goes unnoticed because they retain enough vocabulary and such to pass as normal.
I would be nice to hear from some of his former students to see if he's always been like this, or if it's out of character.
posted by Mitrovarr at 12:34 PM on June 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
I would be nice to hear from some of his former students to see if he's always been like this, or if it's out of character.
posted by Mitrovarr at 12:34 PM on June 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
If he'd stuck to the concept that it was HIS trouble and nobody else's, he might have had something there.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
In short, a media storm did not destroy Tim Hunt's reputation. Tim Hunt destroyed Tim Hunt's reputation.
QFMFT.
posted by Kitteh at 12:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
QFMFT.
posted by Kitteh at 12:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I know this shouldn't be the surprising part, but Tim Hunt's wife is a scientist! This is how he thinks about the person he married?
You know, if my partner were all over the internets talking about falling in love with people at work, I might not be best pleased. I had assumed that he was unattached and unbeloved.
posted by Frowner at 12:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [12 favorites]
good thing he didn't criticize #GG, we would have had SWAT teams called on him... Retiring at 72 after winning the highest award in your field because your social views are behind the times doesn't really strike me as much of a "hunt."
I know this shouldn't be the surprising part, but Tim Hunt's wife is a scientist! This is how he thinks about the person he married?
She was one of the ones who fell in love with him, I'd guess.
posted by ghostiger at 12:36 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know this shouldn't be the surprising part, but Tim Hunt's wife is a scientist! This is how he thinks about the person he married?
She was one of the ones who fell in love with him, I'd guess.
posted by ghostiger at 12:36 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fortunately this guy never made any cash so he couldn't live like Dominique Strauss-Kahn.
posted by colie at 12:36 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by colie at 12:36 PM on June 12, 2015
I'm so often astonished at how stupid smart people are.
posted by still bill at 12:37 PM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by still bill at 12:37 PM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
He leaves a lab where presumably he had to work with women and now can perhaps find a lab in which he doesn't.
Did he leave any labs? I see an honorary professorship and a couple of board positions. It's not clear to me that his LRI/FCI lab is still a going concern.
I would be nice to hear from some of his former students to see if he's always been like this, or if it's out of character.
Read the Fiona Fox piece linked to in the main post.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2015
Did he leave any labs? I see an honorary professorship and a couple of board positions. It's not clear to me that his LRI/FCI lab is still a going concern.
I would be nice to hear from some of his former students to see if he's always been like this, or if it's out of character.
Read the Fiona Fox piece linked to in the main post.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2015
> I wonder if the reason that some very old, very famous scientists say very stupid or unpopular things is because they have actually lost some functioning to age
I don't think sexism is a symptom of dementia.
I guess maybe his judgment has been impaired with age, and he is now revealing sexist attitudes he's had all along. Or maybe he's always been like this.
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think sexism is a symptom of dementia.
I guess maybe his judgment has been impaired with age, and he is now revealing sexist attitudes he's had all along. Or maybe he's always been like this.
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I know this shouldn't be the surprising part, but Tim Hunt's wife is a scientist! This is how he thinks about the person he married?
IME there are quite a few dude scientists who are relatively respectful towards women who are of similar age and standing in their field but have absolutely jaw-dropping attitudes when it comes to mentoring women who are younger and/or earlier in their career.
posted by kagredon at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
IME there are quite a few dude scientists who are relatively respectful towards women who are of similar age and standing in their field but have absolutely jaw-dropping attitudes when it comes to mentoring women who are younger and/or earlier in their career.
posted by kagredon at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
I know this shouldn't be the surprising part, but Tim Hunt's wife is a scientist! This is how he thinks about the person he married?
At least his spouse doesn't write an advice column for Science Magazine.
posted by k5.user at 12:39 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
The really sad thing is this pernicious attitude is just another variant on the fundamentalist "cover yourself so men won't be tempted" crap. I've seen it at every university I've been at. On the plus side, the worst offenders are usually these emeritus types, so at least the more vocal ones will die off soon. Hopefully this asshole's post can be offered to a promising female scientist.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:39 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 12:39 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Seriously, the Fox piece is that absolutely horrid yet utterly boilerplate sort of response that these sorts of incidents seem to always produce, where the author argues that the "real problem" is not that a noted figure has outed themselves as a bigoted git, but that people are taking offense to that revelation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
For all we know he's drinking water from a drinking fountain that A GIRL ALREADY DRANK FROM. For fuck's sake somebody give him a cootie shot.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think sexism is a symptom of dementia. I guess maybe his judgment has been impaired with age, and he is now revealing sexist attitudes he's had all along.
I think the deterioration in judgement and impulse control was the dementia symptom Mitrovarr was talking about.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think the deterioration in judgement and impulse control was the dementia symptom Mitrovarr was talking about.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
Our lab wall is now displaying one of the "warning Mix Gender lab. No crying or falling in love' signs that has been making the rounds on twitter.
I expect when one of the bosses who isn't supposed to have anything to do with the lab but likes to stick his nose in everything will eventually notice it and not understand at all why it's funny and ask for it to be taken down because it's not professional blah blah blah. Considering the two people that are in the lab are women and the outside lab people that do come in occasionally are also women who will get it, I think we will be working/fighting to keep it up.
posted by Jalliah at 12:41 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
I expect when one of the bosses who isn't supposed to have anything to do with the lab but likes to stick his nose in everything will eventually notice it and not understand at all why it's funny and ask for it to be taken down because it's not professional blah blah blah. Considering the two people that are in the lab are women and the outside lab people that do come in occasionally are also women who will get it, I think we will be working/fighting to keep it up.
posted by Jalliah at 12:41 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
This brought to mind Arthur C. Clark's concern about women in space being distracting for men, which then brings to mind every other instance of a man blaming a woman for distracting him. Which brings me to the Movie Villain with a device for destruction all ready to go, if only the hero would kill a puppy, so when the hero doesn't kill the puppy, the villain says "you made me push the button by not killing that puppy."
In short: stop blaming other people for your actions and feelings.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [22 favorites]
In short: stop blaming other people for your actions and feelings.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [22 favorites]
Seriously, the Fox piece is that absolutely horrid yet utterly boilerplate sort of response that these sorts of incidents seem to always produce, where the author argues that the "real problem" is not that a noted figure has outed themselves as a bigoted git, but that people are taking offense to that revelation.
Really? She did a bunch of original journalism in there.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Really? She did a bunch of original journalism in there.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
But there is huge difference between slamming his comments as out of date, and calling for his head on a plate. ... The ivory tower of science might still feel closed to some women. But adorning its gates with Tim Hunt’s head does nothing for equality.
yes, in these confusing and trying times, let us be sure to take a firm stand against the rampant epidemic of beheading sexists
posted by en forme de poire at 12:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [34 favorites]
yes, in these confusing and trying times, let us be sure to take a firm stand against the rampant epidemic of beheading sexists
posted by en forme de poire at 12:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [34 favorites]
I don't think sexism is a symptom of dementia.
inappropriate sexual behavior, including both actions and comments, is in fact an issue with senile dementia.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:44 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
inappropriate sexual behavior, including both actions and comments, is in fact an issue with senile dementia.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:44 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
Here's a video of a bit of his lecture where the comment was uttered, but it doesn't contain the part where he said it. It would be interesting to hear the context of how it was done. Seems like an odd comment to inject into this lecture, but people are strange as hell sometimes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:45 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:45 PM on June 12, 2015
I'm so often astonished at how stupid smart people are.
"I'm really super smart about this one thing, so I don't need to be smart about these other things that I consider less important" is an idea with a surprising amount of traction
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:49 PM on June 12, 2015 [27 favorites]
"I'm really super smart about this one thing, so I don't need to be smart about these other things that I consider less important" is an idea with a surprising amount of traction
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:49 PM on June 12, 2015 [27 favorites]
I'm so often astonished at how stupid smart people are.
It's not being stupid. It's a dynamic that (MeFi's own) Tim Chevalier pointed out during the Brendan Eich fiasco - our society has routinely granted those we consider "brilliant" in one field a sort of permission to be horrid people in other aspects.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:51 PM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
It's not being stupid. It's a dynamic that (MeFi's own) Tim Chevalier pointed out during the Brendan Eich fiasco - our society has routinely granted those we consider "brilliant" in one field a sort of permission to be horrid people in other aspects.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:51 PM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
Some people also have tried to argue to me that he should be given some leeway since he is a Nobel laureate. Being a Nobel Prize winner means you made a substantial contribution to your field, but says nothing about your qualities as a mentor or even as a scientist. I think Hunt has provided sufficient evidence that he is unsuitable for any position involving mentorship of younger scientists.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I for one am glad to see a man of such knowledge and stature acknowledge how utterly helpless men are when it comes to their emotions and how their inability to control them or act appropriately prevents them from behaving professionally.
posted by rtha at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [95 favorites]
posted by rtha at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [95 favorites]
Also if I was his wife, I would be absolutely livid with him for saying something that could very well lead people to assume my career was affected in any way by sleeping with him, especially since judging by a quick glance at Mary Collins's CV, they've never worked in the same lab.
posted by kagredon at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 12:52 PM on June 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
Yes, this person has said a dumb thing. It reminds me, though, of Bill Burr's bit about Donald Sterling: "He's old. What did you think he thought?" Not everybody gets more liberal with age, or at least not as liberal as people much younger have become. Not that what he said is okay, at all. But to be so shocked by it seems silly. Embarrass him, yes, and sweep him aside, because he shouldn't be in a position of authority over people perhaps, but come on... is it so shocking?
posted by dammitjim at 12:55 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by dammitjim at 12:55 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Did he leave any labs? I see an honorary professorship and a couple of board positions. It's not clear to me that his LRI/FCI lab is still a going concern.
I'm having trouble finding it now, but I'm pretty sure some of the reporting I've read on this indicated that he was not running/working for a lab at the time of his comments and hadn't been personally involved in lab work for some time.
posted by Copronymus at 12:56 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm having trouble finding it now, but I'm pretty sure some of the reporting I've read on this indicated that he was not running/working for a lab at the time of his comments and hadn't been personally involved in lab work for some time.
posted by Copronymus at 12:56 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
inappropriate sexual behavior, including both actions and comments, is in fact an issue with senile dementia.
Isn't that when things are a bit further along, though? I mean, I would not expect the one relative I've had whose dementia progressed to personality changes to have been able to give a talk or attend a conference at that point. (I do believe that real personality changes can come with dementia, based on my experience with this relative. I don't believe that he had been hiding [unattractive and stupid opinion] all his life long and living in opposition to it.)
But in any case, if Dr. Hunt is sufficiently in the throes of dementia that he can't regulate what he says, it may be time for him to step down. That would be very sad, but if he's genuinely too ill to keep from expressing inappropriate sexist views in important international fora, he needs to be receiving appropriate care and support in private life.
posted by Frowner at 1:01 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Isn't that when things are a bit further along, though? I mean, I would not expect the one relative I've had whose dementia progressed to personality changes to have been able to give a talk or attend a conference at that point. (I do believe that real personality changes can come with dementia, based on my experience with this relative. I don't believe that he had been hiding [unattractive and stupid opinion] all his life long and living in opposition to it.)
But in any case, if Dr. Hunt is sufficiently in the throes of dementia that he can't regulate what he says, it may be time for him to step down. That would be very sad, but if he's genuinely too ill to keep from expressing inappropriate sexist views in important international fora, he needs to be receiving appropriate care and support in private life.
posted by Frowner at 1:01 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yes, this person has said a dumb thing. It reminds me, though, of Bill Burr's bit about Donald Sterling yt : "He's old. What did you think he thought?" Not everybody gets more liberal with age, or at least not as liberal as people much younger have become.
No, he did not say a dumb thing. He said an incredibly sexist thing. There is a vast difference.
And no, age is no excuse for racism, sexism, or any other sort of discrimination.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:03 PM on June 12, 2015 [18 favorites]
No, he did not say a dumb thing. He said an incredibly sexist thing. There is a vast difference.
And no, age is no excuse for racism, sexism, or any other sort of discrimination.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:03 PM on June 12, 2015 [18 favorites]
I'm having trouble finding it now, but I'm pretty sure some of the reporting I've read on this indicated that he was not running/working for a lab at the time of his comments
In the video I linked to of part of the lecture where the comment was uttered, he says he hasn't been in a lab since 2011.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:09 PM on June 12, 2015
In the video I linked to of part of the lecture where the comment was uttered, he says he hasn't been in a lab since 2011.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:09 PM on June 12, 2015
Copronymus: "I'm having trouble finding it now, but I'm pretty sure some of the reporting I've read on this indicated that he was not running/working for a lab at the time of his comments and hadn't been personally involved in lab work for some time."
This ArsTechnica article says: "Hunt's position at University College London was honorary. And the successor of the place where he did his research, the Francis Crick Institute, indicates he shut his lab down several years ago, and switched his appointment to emeritus status".
posted by James Scott-Brown at 1:09 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
This ArsTechnica article says: "Hunt's position at University College London was honorary. And the successor of the place where he did his research, the Francis Crick Institute, indicates he shut his lab down several years ago, and switched his appointment to emeritus status".
posted by James Scott-Brown at 1:09 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
The one good thing out of all this is that, I get to see what it's like to work in different labs across different fields. Scientists are badass.
posted by tickingclock at 1:10 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by tickingclock at 1:10 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Supposedly "Rational" scientist can't meta-cogitate and mediate his own animal urges in service of a higher cause, news at 11. Sigh... why do these people bitch about their loins distracting them when they can obviously be self-regulating enough to follow strict scientific methods designed to counter other aspects human frailty?
posted by smidgen at 1:11 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by smidgen at 1:11 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Isn't that when things are a bit further along, though?
IME it varies a lot. I don't mean this to be a defense of him, though.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
IME it varies a lot. I don't mean this to be a defense of him, though.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Note: this was an honorary position, he was not paid, he didn’t have any duties, but was just expected to show up for the dog-and-pony shows. This resignation represents no significant loss to scientific progress.
posted by TedW at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TedW at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Please don't respond to offensive stuff by suggesting exaggeratedly sexualized punishments for offenders; it's weird and offputting and doesn't advance the goals you want.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
Clearly we should just remove men from labs since they are so distracting and all. Imagine how much more work those straight female scientists could get done without getting sidetracked by how good men's shoulders look in lab coats.
posted by lydhre at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by lydhre at 1:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
May I offer a round of drinks for all the elderly gay male scientists who managed to solider on and muddle through and get their jobs done despite having spent decades in mostly male labs? (in the olden days)
(cross posting w. gcubed)
posted by puddledork at 1:20 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
(cross posting w. gcubed)
posted by puddledork at 1:20 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yep, we've got one of those posters up in our lab today...
And the weird thing is that we do have a love triangle happening in our midst (she already has a live-in boyfriend, he's absolutely gaga for her, etc.) But the astonishing part is that everyone seems to be getting their job done regardless.
It's called professionalism.
posted by pointless_incessant_barking at 1:21 PM on June 12, 2015 [25 favorites]
And the weird thing is that we do have a love triangle happening in our midst (she already has a live-in boyfriend, he's absolutely gaga for her, etc.) But the astonishing part is that everyone seems to be getting their job done regardless.
It's called professionalism.
posted by pointless_incessant_barking at 1:21 PM on June 12, 2015 [25 favorites]
"but come on... is it so shocking?"
If Mary Wollstonecraft could find it shocking in 1792, I reserve the right to find blatant sexism shocking in 2015. Age hasn't been an acceptable excuse for a long time.
posted by traveler_ at 1:22 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
If Mary Wollstonecraft could find it shocking in 1792, I reserve the right to find blatant sexism shocking in 2015. Age hasn't been an acceptable excuse for a long time.
posted by traveler_ at 1:22 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
There's another forgotten factor here - what about all of us who provide research support? The admins, accountants, grant managers, etc? All these scientists swanning about in lab coats being irresistible and all - I'm telling you, a human subjects protocol staffer can fall in love and cry just as well as any lab tech.
posted by Frowner at 1:22 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 1:22 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
So I guess everyone will have to work in total isolation, is what I'm saying.
posted by Frowner at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
And also, having someone cry when you're trying to get your IRB documents processed? Bad scene!
posted by Frowner at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Clearly we should just remove men from labs since they are so distracting and all.
Would it help if we called them "lads"?
posted by amtho at 1:25 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Would it help if we called them "lads"?
posted by amtho at 1:25 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
In isolation... using VR headsets... with statuesque avatars with multicolored skin in skimpy lab coats. All slick with tears. Oh the humanity?
posted by smidgen at 1:26 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by smidgen at 1:26 PM on June 12, 2015
it's not that it's shocking that old dudes in positions of power can be racist or sexist or whatever - it's proof. so much of being a victim of oppression is gaslighting - so when the donald sterlings and the tim hunts of the world come out with what they really think, it shows that we're not crazy, that this is really what these people think, and that the things they think actively hurt those they're bigoted against.
posted by nadawi at 1:29 PM on June 12, 2015 [44 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:29 PM on June 12, 2015 [44 favorites]
I'm so tired of these stories and the entirely predictable outrage and backlash.
Hunt, perhaps jokingly, confesses he has 'a problem' with 'girls' - that he's prone to 'fall in love with them'. He didn't say he wants to shag all his female coworkers, but people interpret this as lady scientists are sooo sexy in their lab coats.
Who falls in love with a piece of clothing? Isn't this just an old guy admitting he's prone to developing little crushes on his intelligent opposite-sex coworkers? If he's not hitting on them and treats them as respected colleagues, having feelings doesn't seem like a burn-at-the-stake kind of (thought) crime.
posted by unmake at 1:32 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hunt, perhaps jokingly, confesses he has 'a problem' with 'girls' - that he's prone to 'fall in love with them'. He didn't say he wants to shag all his female coworkers, but people interpret this as lady scientists are sooo sexy in their lab coats.
Who falls in love with a piece of clothing? Isn't this just an old guy admitting he's prone to developing little crushes on his intelligent opposite-sex coworkers? If he's not hitting on them and treats them as respected colleagues, having feelings doesn't seem like a burn-at-the-stake kind of (thought) crime.
posted by unmake at 1:32 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
If he's not hitting on them and treats them as respected colleagues, having feelings doesn't seem like a burn-at-the-stake kind of (thought) crime.
He said that labs should be sex segregated and that female scientists are constantly crying when you criticize them. Your description is disingenuous.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:34 PM on June 12, 2015 [65 favorites]
He said that labs should be sex segregated and that female scientists are constantly crying when you criticize them. Your description is disingenuous.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:34 PM on June 12, 2015 [65 favorites]
There's also the "and when you criticise them, they cry" part, which is shitty
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:34 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:34 PM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
If he's not hitting on them and treats them as respected colleagues, having feelings doesn't seem like a burn-at-the-stake kind of (thought) crime.
I believe the specific thoughtcrime here was his suggestion of gender segregation
posted by just another scurvy brother at 1:34 PM on June 12, 2015
I believe the specific thoughtcrime here was his suggestion of gender segregation
posted by just another scurvy brother at 1:34 PM on June 12, 2015
Really? She did a bunch of original journalism in there.
No. It was the same sort of write by numbers piece you see with these sorts of incidents. You start with a quick recounting of the actual incident, and a more lengthy recounting of the response (this creates a "tempest in a teapot" image.) Then there's the "but this isn't really a problem" section, where it's explained how the incident isn't whatever people are claiming (usually by saying that only "active" incidents are the real offenses.) And now that we've redefined what is and isn't an offense, we can go looking for said offense - we'll talk to his friends and close colleagues (no chance of them being biased, right?) and his subordinates (because it's not like they might feel unable to speak freely.) And because of how we redefined this, no need to talk to all those pesky peers complaining.
And now that we've found no offense, we can get to the heart of the piece - the real problem is not what everyone is complaining about publicly, but that they are doing so. Because, how can we expect brilliant people to be brilliant when they could be held accountable for any sexist or racist or bigoted thing they might say publicly. By holding them accountable, we run the danger of snuffing out the spark of creativity and discovery.
(I think I threw up a little bit there.)
And so we come to the denouement - the real villain of the piece is not our poor, misunderstood hero, but all the people who dare hold him accountable for his public conduct.
Like I said - boilerplate.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
No. It was the same sort of write by numbers piece you see with these sorts of incidents. You start with a quick recounting of the actual incident, and a more lengthy recounting of the response (this creates a "tempest in a teapot" image.) Then there's the "but this isn't really a problem" section, where it's explained how the incident isn't whatever people are claiming (usually by saying that only "active" incidents are the real offenses.) And now that we've redefined what is and isn't an offense, we can go looking for said offense - we'll talk to his friends and close colleagues (no chance of them being biased, right?) and his subordinates (because it's not like they might feel unable to speak freely.) And because of how we redefined this, no need to talk to all those pesky peers complaining.
And now that we've found no offense, we can get to the heart of the piece - the real problem is not what everyone is complaining about publicly, but that they are doing so. Because, how can we expect brilliant people to be brilliant when they could be held accountable for any sexist or racist or bigoted thing they might say publicly. By holding them accountable, we run the danger of snuffing out the spark of creativity and discovery.
(I think I threw up a little bit there.)
And so we come to the denouement - the real villain of the piece is not our poor, misunderstood hero, but all the people who dare hold him accountable for his public conduct.
Like I said - boilerplate.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
well referring to all women as "girls" is pretty shitty, and saying shitty sexist things is shitty and a bad way to treat people "as respected colleagues"
posted by NoraReed at 1:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 1:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [17 favorites]
Part of mediating your urges is to realize how vocalizing them affects others. I don't, for instance, talk about how I'd actually like to drop my neighbor's schnauzers into a vat of boiling oil in front of my neighbor, because nothing good would come of it. By the same token, you do not tell professional women, who are already struggling to be taken seriously, that you always have crushes on them and they cry a lot.
posted by smidgen at 1:36 PM on June 12, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by smidgen at 1:36 PM on June 12, 2015 [12 favorites]
Isn't this just an old guy admitting he's prone to developing little crushes on his intelligent opposite-sex coworkers?
No, it's a guy who says that his own tendancy to develop little crushes on his intelligent opposite-sex coworkers is a good reason for every lab everywhere to keep men and women apart from each other.
If he's not hitting on them and treats them as respected colleagues, having feelings doesn't seem like a burn-at-the-stake kind of (thought) crime.
He's blaming all women for his own proclivities, so that doesn't sound much like he "respects" them.
....On another note - has anyone asked Hunt his policy on gay men who are scientists? Where would he have them work, with the straight men? Oh, and what about transgender men (oh, and transgender women!) who happen to be scientists? Where should they work? Hmm, it is a puzzlement.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
No, it's a guy who says that his own tendancy to develop little crushes on his intelligent opposite-sex coworkers is a good reason for every lab everywhere to keep men and women apart from each other.
If he's not hitting on them and treats them as respected colleagues, having feelings doesn't seem like a burn-at-the-stake kind of (thought) crime.
He's blaming all women for his own proclivities, so that doesn't sound much like he "respects" them.
....On another note - has anyone asked Hunt his policy on gay men who are scientists? Where would he have them work, with the straight men? Oh, and what about transgender men (oh, and transgender women!) who happen to be scientists? Where should they work? Hmm, it is a puzzlement.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
Part of mediating your urges is to realize how vocalizing them affects others. I don't, for instance, talk about how I'd actually like to drop my neighbor's schnauzers into a vat of boiling oil in front of my neighbor, because nothing good would come of it. By the same token, you do not tell professional women, who are already struggling to be taken seriously, that you always have crushes on them and they cry a lot.
And when people tell you "hey, that's really fucking sexist", you don't give a "sorry not sorry" nonpology.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:39 PM on June 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
And when people tell you "hey, that's really fucking sexist", you don't give a "sorry not sorry" nonpology.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:39 PM on June 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
Your description is disingenuous.
I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous, just attempting to say, I guess, that a lot of internet outrage seems to be based on the most cynical presumptions of others.
posted by unmake at 1:39 PM on June 12, 2015
I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous, just attempting to say, I guess, that a lot of internet outrage seems to be based on the most cynical presumptions of others.
posted by unmake at 1:39 PM on June 12, 2015
> I'm so tired of these stories and the entirely predictable outrage and backlash.
If you can't take the outrage, stay off the internet.
I hope that the 40-year-old versions of this guy, the ones who are running labs and turning them into boys' clubs, take a look at this outrage and go "oh shit." Even more, I hope that the women in and out of those labs look at this outrage and go "watch out."
posted by rtha at 1:41 PM on June 12, 2015 [22 favorites]
If you can't take the outrage, stay off the internet.
I hope that the 40-year-old versions of this guy, the ones who are running labs and turning them into boys' clubs, take a look at this outrage and go "oh shit." Even more, I hope that the women in and out of those labs look at this outrage and go "watch out."
posted by rtha at 1:41 PM on June 12, 2015 [22 favorites]
If he's not hitting on them and treats them as respected colleagues, having feelings doesn't seem like a burn-at-the-stake kind of (thought) crime.
How true this is! How often I get little crushes on...well, not co-workers generally, but certainly fellow volunteers, people in workshops I've taught, etc.
But you know what? When I'm actually, like, giving remarks about my volunteer work or running an event, I don't stand up on my hind paws and talk about how difficult my little crushes make my work or how I'm always falling in love with people junior to me, because that's creepy. If I want to talk about little crushes, I talk about them in private with friends, not in an official capacity.
To my mind, the privilege issue here is not the "I sometimes have unsuitable romantic fancies about people at work"; it's the "I sometimes have unsuitable romantic fancies about people at work and I am going to bring those unsuitable romantic fancies into public discourse about work as if they are suitable for professional discussion. Also, I'm going to make my little fancies into the problem and fault of women".
If he were down at the pub talking about how he thinks [probably wrongly!] that his crystallographer wants desperately to get into his pants, that would just be the ordinary foolishness to which we're all prone and as long as he was - as you say - completely professional with her, it wouldn't matter.
posted by Frowner at 1:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [35 favorites]
How true this is! How often I get little crushes on...well, not co-workers generally, but certainly fellow volunteers, people in workshops I've taught, etc.
But you know what? When I'm actually, like, giving remarks about my volunteer work or running an event, I don't stand up on my hind paws and talk about how difficult my little crushes make my work or how I'm always falling in love with people junior to me, because that's creepy. If I want to talk about little crushes, I talk about them in private with friends, not in an official capacity.
To my mind, the privilege issue here is not the "I sometimes have unsuitable romantic fancies about people at work"; it's the "I sometimes have unsuitable romantic fancies about people at work and I am going to bring those unsuitable romantic fancies into public discourse about work as if they are suitable for professional discussion. Also, I'm going to make my little fancies into the problem and fault of women".
If he were down at the pub talking about how he thinks [probably wrongly!] that his crystallographer wants desperately to get into his pants, that would just be the ordinary foolishness to which we're all prone and as long as he was - as you say - completely professional with her, it wouldn't matter.
posted by Frowner at 1:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [35 favorites]
I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous, just attempting to say, I guess, that a lot of internet outrage seems to be based on the most cynical presumptions of others.
posted by unmake at 4:39 PM on June 12
When you omit the most important parts of the quote, the parts that have been driving the backlash, you can't be surprised when it looks like you're not really participating in good faith.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by unmake at 4:39 PM on June 12
When you omit the most important parts of the quote, the parts that have been driving the backlash, you can't be surprised when it looks like you're not really participating in good faith.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:42 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous, just attempting to say, I guess, that a lot of internet outrage seems to be based on the most cynical presumptions of others.
A sentiment that seems to be routinely built on the idea that people aren't supposed to vocalize their outrage.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
A sentiment that seems to be routinely built on the idea that people aren't supposed to vocalize their outrage.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
that a lot of internet outrage seems to be based on the most cynical presumptions of others.
While I'm all in favor of actually hearing audio or seeing video of him saying the comments to get the full context, it's not like the comments aren't problematic. It's a really ignorant point of view to have, let alone articulate.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
While I'm all in favor of actually hearing audio or seeing video of him saying the comments to get the full context, it's not like the comments aren't problematic. It's a really ignorant point of view to have, let alone articulate.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's not cynical -- I'm sure he wasn't *trying* to be a shit head. That's not the point. The point is he's an obstinate guy standing on someone's foot and sometimes you need to yell at him to get off of it if he decides that your foot isn't really there.
posted by smidgen at 1:44 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by smidgen at 1:44 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I am a woman and a PhD physicist. I'm also married to another physicist whom I met when we shared a lab in grad school. So -- falling in love -- check. Ten year anniversary is next month, and we have two kids.
Have I ever cried in the lab? Well, yes, a couple of times, in the last ten years. Grad school is brutal, for one thing. You pour yourself into these projects, and then they end, for another.
So yep, I've cried in the lab, and I've fallen in love with (and been fallen in love with by) a co-worker.
But the thing is -- I don't think any of that actually makes me a bad scientist. I've got a bunch of publications and a bunch of patents and a bunch of peers who respect me and seek out my help. I can do the math, and I can make stuff work in the lab, and I can write proposals, and I can write reports, so what the hell? I guess I'll keep doing it. I think the contributions I've made pretty much outweigh any discomfort I may have caused guys like this.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [50 favorites]
Have I ever cried in the lab? Well, yes, a couple of times, in the last ten years. Grad school is brutal, for one thing. You pour yourself into these projects, and then they end, for another.
So yep, I've cried in the lab, and I've fallen in love with (and been fallen in love with by) a co-worker.
But the thing is -- I don't think any of that actually makes me a bad scientist. I've got a bunch of publications and a bunch of patents and a bunch of peers who respect me and seek out my help. I can do the math, and I can make stuff work in the lab, and I can write proposals, and I can write reports, so what the hell? I guess I'll keep doing it. I think the contributions I've made pretty much outweigh any discomfort I may have caused guys like this.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [50 favorites]
This is a real problem. I've been affected by it, I'm pretty sure. I just feel sorry for the guy. He's not _trying_ to be evil.
I guess we could add required courses to teach male scientists to deal better with falling in love and with people crying. Maybe just one course. Maybe we could add a literature and/or psychology requirement to college degrees and focus it a little.
Or maybe someone could whip something up and put it on Coursera. Just, help people; don't just vilify them and tell them how terrible they are. Get the out of the way if they're damaging others, and give them a chance to learn.
posted by amtho at 1:55 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess we could add required courses to teach male scientists to deal better with falling in love and with people crying. Maybe just one course. Maybe we could add a literature and/or psychology requirement to college degrees and focus it a little.
Or maybe someone could whip something up and put it on Coursera. Just, help people; don't just vilify them and tell them how terrible they are. Get the out of the way if they're damaging others, and give them a chance to learn.
posted by amtho at 1:55 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bawha? Is that satire, amtho? I honestly can't tell.
posted by agregoli at 1:59 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 1:59 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
A fun and little known fact about old people is that they are not simply transported directly from 'the olden days.' So for example, someone whose career began in the 1960s or 70s has experienced not only those decades, but the intervening ones as well. It is not unreasonable to expect that an older person, especially one who is giving talks that people are attending, to know better. And not just to not SAY those things, but to actually not believe them. Seriously.
And it's just weird to see people blaming his age for his sexism. What is the average age of a Reddit poster? And citing some argument from the repulsively, aggressively misogynist Bill Burr? How old is that guy?
posted by ernielundquist at 2:00 PM on June 12, 2015 [26 favorites]
And it's just weird to see people blaming his age for his sexism. What is the average age of a Reddit poster? And citing some argument from the repulsively, aggressively misogynist Bill Burr? How old is that guy?
posted by ernielundquist at 2:00 PM on June 12, 2015 [26 favorites]
(Just for the sake of clarity, when I wrote "I don't stand up on my hind paws and talk about how difficult my little crushes make my work or how I'm always falling in love with people junior to me" I was thinking of Hunt - I don't find my little crushes to make my volunteer work difficult and I don't find myself falling in love with junior people. It's more of a "minor crush on workshop attendee or fellow event coordinator" thing.)
posted by Frowner at 2:00 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 2:00 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm so tired of these stories and the entirely predictable outrage and backlash.
I'm tired of it too, tbh, but the problem is the people saying this crap in the first place, not the backlash. You've got to take these guys to task on their BS comments otherwise that kind of thinking flourishes. How else is a culture going to change?
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:04 PM on June 12, 2015 [26 favorites]
I'm tired of it too, tbh, but the problem is the people saying this crap in the first place, not the backlash. You've got to take these guys to task on their BS comments otherwise that kind of thinking flourishes. How else is a culture going to change?
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:04 PM on June 12, 2015 [26 favorites]
This is an individual who has a good deal of authority in his field making an incredibly sexist and damaging remark in public, and then refusing to show any sort of acknowledgement (let alone contrition) of why his statement was so offensive and harmful.
He doesn't just have moral authority either: he is one of 19 members of the European Research Council's governing body. The ERC controls billions of euros of funding annually. The ERC's president issued a statement defending him, which I found more alarming than anything else in this affair.
posted by grouse at 2:06 PM on June 12, 2015 [24 favorites]
He doesn't just have moral authority either: he is one of 19 members of the European Research Council's governing body. The ERC controls billions of euros of funding annually. The ERC's president issued a statement defending him, which I found more alarming than anything else in this affair.
posted by grouse at 2:06 PM on June 12, 2015 [24 favorites]
filthy light thief: "brings to mind every other instance of a man blaming a woman for distracting him."
This sort of sentiment always makes me wonder why men who hold these attitudes think men should allowed to be in charge of ANYTHING AT ALL when they are apparently so incapable of paying attention to their jobs. Like, definitely they should not be driving cars. DISTRACTED DRIVING KILLS.
NoxAeternum: "our society has routinely granted those we consider "brilliant" in one field a sort of permission to be horrid people in other aspects."
Not just ours! Socrates has a long riff on this! It is clearly a human-level system failure.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:07 PM on June 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
This sort of sentiment always makes me wonder why men who hold these attitudes think men should allowed to be in charge of ANYTHING AT ALL when they are apparently so incapable of paying attention to their jobs. Like, definitely they should not be driving cars. DISTRACTED DRIVING KILLS.
NoxAeternum: "our society has routinely granted those we consider "brilliant" in one field a sort of permission to be horrid people in other aspects."
Not just ours! Socrates has a long riff on this! It is clearly a human-level system failure.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:07 PM on June 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
Have I ever cried in the lab? Well, yes, a couple of times, in the last ten years. Grad school is brutal, for one thing. You pour yourself into these projects, and then they end, for another.
I mean seriously, some people punch a wall when they're frustrated (or feel criticized), some people bitch to others, some people repress like crazy, some people cry.... what I hear from this guy's quote isn't "crying is bad" but "emotions scare me." What a weenie.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:09 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mean seriously, some people punch a wall when they're frustrated (or feel criticized), some people bitch to others, some people repress like crazy, some people cry.... what I hear from this guy's quote isn't "crying is bad" but "emotions scare me." What a weenie.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:09 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
How else is a culture going to change?
By drawing a hard line about the comments, yes, but also by treating other people with compassion. Remove his influence (remove him from his position of power) since that's necessary to protect and improve the culture, but also make it known that even non-evil nice smart guys can have problematic attitudes. (I have no opinion on this dude personally; I'm just looking for a wayto react to incidents like this without hardening people's positions pro or con).
....but "emotions scare me." What a weenie.
See, not helpful. Probably emotions do scare him. It's reasonable that they should if he has no idea how to handle them.
posted by amtho at 2:10 PM on June 12, 2015
By drawing a hard line about the comments, yes, but also by treating other people with compassion. Remove his influence (remove him from his position of power) since that's necessary to protect and improve the culture, but also make it known that even non-evil nice smart guys can have problematic attitudes. (I have no opinion on this dude personally; I'm just looking for a wayto react to incidents like this without hardening people's positions pro or con).
....but "emotions scare me." What a weenie.
See, not helpful. Probably emotions do scare him. It's reasonable that they should if he has no idea how to handle them.
posted by amtho at 2:10 PM on June 12, 2015
He's not _trying_ to be evil.
No one tries to be evil, outside of bad comic books. Even Hitler probably thought he was doing righteous work. The problem is, he was wrong.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
No one tries to be evil, outside of bad comic books. Even Hitler probably thought he was doing righteous work. The problem is, he was wrong.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:12 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
...and by calling him a 'weenie', you make anyone who identifies with him (older white dude scientists who secretly don't feel comfortable working with women) defensive, rather than leaving them open to the idea that maybe they could learn something. People can't learn when their defenses are up.
posted by amtho at 2:12 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by amtho at 2:12 PM on June 12, 2015
Haha! Let them be defensive. I really don't care what sexists think about pushback to their sexist comments. Treating men gently about this stuff has never worked...this is a version of the "feminists need to be kinder to be heard properly" argument.
posted by agregoli at 2:16 PM on June 12, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 2:16 PM on June 12, 2015 [36 favorites]
...and by calling him a 'weenie', you make anyone who identifies with him (older white dude scientists who secretly don't feel comfortable working with women) defensive, rather than leaving them open to the idea that maybe they could learn something. People can't learn when their defenses are up.
No, people who want to learn need to control their defensive reactions, particularly to very mild verbal rebukes/marks of irritation. It's hardly as though mobs are rampaging around punching male scientists in the face if they fail to denounce Hunt in strong enough terms - calling someone a "weenie" in passing on a website is barely even criticism, and if a guy can't stand that kind of critical heat, he needs to work on himself a bit.
posted by Frowner at 2:18 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
No, people who want to learn need to control their defensive reactions, particularly to very mild verbal rebukes/marks of irritation. It's hardly as though mobs are rampaging around punching male scientists in the face if they fail to denounce Hunt in strong enough terms - calling someone a "weenie" in passing on a website is barely even criticism, and if a guy can't stand that kind of critical heat, he needs to work on himself a bit.
posted by Frowner at 2:18 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted; let's not expand this to cases of men who did totally different wrong things, it just ups the heat and doesn't clarify anything. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:18 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:18 PM on June 12, 2015
...and by calling him a 'weenie', you make anyone who identifies with him (older white dude scientists who secretly don't feel comfortable working with women) defensive, rather than leaving them open to the idea that maybe they could learn something. People can't learn when their defenses are up.
Or you show them that if they act shitty like this, they will be laughed at, and rightly so, so they learn to shut the fuck up about their garbage opinions because it is socially unacceptable for them to express them. That's my usual strategy; I don't have time for nicely coaching assholes through their misogynist bullshit "reasons" for their misogynist bullshit behaviors, especially since, in my experience, nicely coaching them DOESN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING, and people who get all het up over us ~not being nice about~ and ~forcing~ the poor old white men to ~get defensive~ are really just either tone policing, trying to get women to shut up, or both. It's also an attempt to put the burden of solving the sexism of asshole old white dudes on women and telling us that the only appropriate strategy is the one that is enormously time-consuming, emotionally taxing, and unpaid. Fuck that noise.
posted by NoraReed at 2:21 PM on June 12, 2015 [51 favorites]
Or you show them that if they act shitty like this, they will be laughed at, and rightly so, so they learn to shut the fuck up about their garbage opinions because it is socially unacceptable for them to express them. That's my usual strategy; I don't have time for nicely coaching assholes through their misogynist bullshit "reasons" for their misogynist bullshit behaviors, especially since, in my experience, nicely coaching them DOESN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING, and people who get all het up over us ~not being nice about~ and ~forcing~ the poor old white men to ~get defensive~ are really just either tone policing, trying to get women to shut up, or both. It's also an attempt to put the burden of solving the sexism of asshole old white dudes on women and telling us that the only appropriate strategy is the one that is enormously time-consuming, emotionally taxing, and unpaid. Fuck that noise.
posted by NoraReed at 2:21 PM on June 12, 2015 [51 favorites]
It all seems distasteful. Not just him but the piling on as well.
Shaming is fine. But there is a larger discussion to be had here, no?
Is it a crime to discuss the ways that men perceive women differently than women perceive men and vice versa? It's done in standup comedy all the time in a mostly cynical way.
But nope. It's much easier to pile on and feel great!
posted by tunewell at 2:24 PM on June 12, 2015
Shaming is fine. But there is a larger discussion to be had here, no?
Is it a crime to discuss the ways that men perceive women differently than women perceive men and vice versa? It's done in standup comedy all the time in a mostly cynical way.
But nope. It's much easier to pile on and feel great!
posted by tunewell at 2:24 PM on June 12, 2015
You know what? I'm glad he said it, because it produced the #distractinglysexy backlash. I've been grinning from ear to ear as I scan entries with that hashtag; IMO, they represent feminism at its zenith.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 2:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by DrAstroZoom at 2:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh, come on, this makes no sense historically! If women had been excluded from men's labs, how would Crick and Watson have gotten anything done. You have to let Rosalind Franklin stay for a little while, otherwise he work can't be appropriated....
Of course, o be less "haha" about it, the logical end result of Hunt's ideas are things like the École Polytechnique massacre. Laughing at a once-bright man spout sexist garbage in his dotage is all fine and goo, but his attitudes are poisonous.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Of course, o be less "haha" about it, the logical end result of Hunt's ideas are things like the École Polytechnique massacre. Laughing at a once-bright man spout sexist garbage in his dotage is all fine and goo, but his attitudes are poisonous.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
In Fox's piece she makes it sounds like what happened to Michael Reiss was similar to what happened to Hunt. But the two situations are really quite different. Reiss clarified his remarks and made it clear he was saying something very different from what he was being vilified for. And he got fired.
Hunt is being vilified for exactly what he said and he made it clear that he meant what he said. And he is not getting fired--he is retired already.
I wonder if the backlash-to-the-backlash is because Hunt is in his 70's? I just can't see people coming to the defense of a forty-year-old who made the same comments and then had the temerity/stupidity to basically give a non-apology apology.
posted by Cassford at 2:25 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hunt is being vilified for exactly what he said and he made it clear that he meant what he said. And he is not getting fired--he is retired already.
I wonder if the backlash-to-the-backlash is because Hunt is in his 70's? I just can't see people coming to the defense of a forty-year-old who made the same comments and then had the temerity/stupidity to basically give a non-apology apology.
posted by Cassford at 2:25 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can do both: don't put up with it, draw hard lines and don't waste time or resources on them, but also still treat problem people as people. At least from a distance. I mean, I don't want to spend time with any of these folks, but I imagine them having feelings and the potential for redemption.
Once people have no hope of human connection, you've essentially turned them into even more of a liability -- and you lose a _lot_ of potential good that an imperfect human can do.
No, people who want to learn need to control their defensive reactions
People are going to have defensive reactions. I guarantee I could elicit one from you which would make you instantly stop listening to me. It's on the reactor and the actor both; nobody is wrong to feel how they feel. You're right to be so upset that you literally cannot feel compassion. We're all the product of our brains, lymphatic systems, and a bunch of previous stuff happening to us over which we have limited control.
If you can see a way to do better than repeating, yet again, a pattern of "Dude says something offensive," "people get outraged and vilify dude," "dude and dude's friends still don't understand," and "nothing changes," then why wouldn't you?
posted by amtho at 2:27 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Once people have no hope of human connection, you've essentially turned them into even more of a liability -- and you lose a _lot_ of potential good that an imperfect human can do.
No, people who want to learn need to control their defensive reactions
People are going to have defensive reactions. I guarantee I could elicit one from you which would make you instantly stop listening to me. It's on the reactor and the actor both; nobody is wrong to feel how they feel. You're right to be so upset that you literally cannot feel compassion. We're all the product of our brains, lymphatic systems, and a bunch of previous stuff happening to us over which we have limited control.
If you can see a way to do better than repeating, yet again, a pattern of "Dude says something offensive," "people get outraged and vilify dude," "dude and dude's friends still don't understand," and "nothing changes," then why wouldn't you?
posted by amtho at 2:27 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's much easier to pile on and feel great!
How do you know that none of us are actively working against this type of bullshit in our day-to-day lives?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:27 PM on June 12, 2015 [30 favorites]
How do you know that none of us are actively working against this type of bullshit in our day-to-day lives?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:27 PM on June 12, 2015 [30 favorites]
It's done in standup comedy all the time in a mostly cynical way.
Yes, standup comedy, that bastion of gender equality, which also has so much in common with talking at a scientific conference
posted by en forme de poire at 2:28 PM on June 12, 2015 [40 favorites]
Yes, standup comedy, that bastion of gender equality, which also has so much in common with talking at a scientific conference
posted by en forme de poire at 2:28 PM on June 12, 2015 [40 favorites]
I just can't see people coming to the defense of a forty-year-old who made the same comments and then had the temerity/stupidity to basically give a non-apology apology.
I'd recommend reading up on the whole Brendan Eich fiasco, as people were readily coming to his defense over his belief that gay Californians were second class citizens. It's less about age, and more a belief that we have to let geniuses be horrible people, lest we snuff their genius out.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd recommend reading up on the whole Brendan Eich fiasco, as people were readily coming to his defense over his belief that gay Californians were second class citizens. It's less about age, and more a belief that we have to let geniuses be horrible people, lest we snuff their genius out.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
the thing i can never figure out in these threads is that the brave defenders of polite discourse and patient teaching always end up talking to us about it instead of doing some of that teaching polite discourse they bang on about so much. if it's so important, why are you suggesting others do the work instead of doing it yourself? if shaming is so bad then why are you in here shaming the shamers instead of running constant free "here's how not to be a sexist" educational skypes for all the clueless men out there who just want to learn if only someone was nice about it and never ever made a joke that might make them feel bad?
posted by nadawi at 2:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [44 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:40 PM on June 12, 2015 [44 favorites]
It's totally ok to be uncomfortable with emotions. But when you make your own discomfort someone else's problem (let's sex-segregate labs! otherwise I might see women cry!) yes you are a being a weenie.
Remember, this is people's careers at stake here. This isn't some mild passing "my wife always X" complaint. This is someone essentially saying women don't belong in labs because he's uncomfortable with it. Yikes!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
Remember, this is people's careers at stake here. This isn't some mild passing "my wife always X" complaint. This is someone essentially saying women don't belong in labs because he's uncomfortable with it. Yikes!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:43 PM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
also, it boils down to "i can't control my emotions and that's women's problem and women can't control their emotions and that's women's problem." it's a nonsensical argument from every viewpoint besides sexism.
posted by nadawi at 2:45 PM on June 12, 2015 [30 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:45 PM on June 12, 2015 [30 favorites]
the thing i can never figure out in these threads is that the brave defenders of polite discourse and patient teaching always end up talking to us about it instead of doing some of that teaching polite discourse they bang on about so much. if it's so important, why are you suggesting others do the work instead of doing it yourself?
Seconded so hard, and additionally, every time this comes up I wonder what exactly is supposed to emerge from polite discourse this time to cause these people to have their road to Damascus moment when they've had decades already to absorb the fact that being a sexist asshat in public is declasse.
posted by dorque at 2:46 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
Seconded so hard, and additionally, every time this comes up I wonder what exactly is supposed to emerge from polite discourse this time to cause these people to have their road to Damascus moment when they've had decades already to absorb the fact that being a sexist asshat in public is declasse.
posted by dorque at 2:46 PM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
and vilify dude," "dude and dude's friends still don't understand," and "nothing changes," then why wouldn't you?
posted by amtho at 5:27 PM on June 12 [1 favorite +] [!]
Well dude got forced to resign and is no longer in a position of authority over women in STEM feels so I feel like "nothing changes" isn't exactly correct here.
posted by edbles at 2:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by amtho at 5:27 PM on June 12 [1 favorite +] [!]
Well dude got forced to resign and is no longer in a position of authority over women in STEM feels so I feel like "nothing changes" isn't exactly correct here.
posted by edbles at 2:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is it a crime to discuss the ways that men perceive women differently than women perceive men and vice versa? It's done in standup comedy all the time in a mostly cynical way.
But nope. It's much easier to pile on and feel great!
posted by tunewell at 5:24 PM on June 12 [+] [!]
You're right start a GoFundMe to free Tim Hunt from prison!
posted by edbles at 2:50 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
But nope. It's much easier to pile on and feel great!
posted by tunewell at 5:24 PM on June 12 [+] [!]
You're right start a GoFundMe to free Tim Hunt from prison!
posted by edbles at 2:50 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
they fall in love with you
I'd be surprised if that has honestly been a common issue in his case.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:56 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'd be surprised if that has honestly been a common issue in his case.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:56 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I don't think sexism is a symptom of dementia.
I guess maybe his judgment has been impaired with age, and he is now revealing sexist attitudes he's had all along. Or maybe he's always been like this.
This is wrong and dangerous. Dementia can cause inappropriate sexual behavior, including verbally. If your grandfather is hitting on you or suddenly makes comments about people of his preferred sex you should get him screened, not talk about how he must have always been a creep and is just now revealing it.
posted by hermanubis at 3:08 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
I guess maybe his judgment has been impaired with age, and he is now revealing sexist attitudes he's had all along. Or maybe he's always been like this.
This is wrong and dangerous. Dementia can cause inappropriate sexual behavior, including verbally. If your grandfather is hitting on you or suddenly makes comments about people of his preferred sex you should get him screened, not talk about how he must have always been a creep and is just now revealing it.
posted by hermanubis at 3:08 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Some scientists answers to Hunt right on target.
I especially like the cheetah poop one.
posted by francesca too at 3:14 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I especially like the cheetah poop one.
posted by francesca too at 3:14 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
the thing i can never figure out in these threads is that the brave defenders of polite discourse and patient teaching always end up talking to us about it instead of doing some of that teaching polite discourse they bang on about so much.
Well, that would mean jeopardizing their own standing by calling out a senior researcher faculty member, or administrator for their behavior.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:17 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, that would mean jeopardizing their own standing by calling out a senior researcher faculty member, or administrator for their behavior.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:17 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
it's a nonsensical argument from every viewpoint besides sexism.
It's also funny because on the scale of emotional reactions that I've observed people having in the course of doing biological research in an academic lab, crying doesn't even rate for me as disruptive. I would 100x prefer someone to cry in front of me in response to failure or criticism (especially since people who tend to cry are often very self-aware about it) vs., say, becoming angrily defensive or aggressive, which plenty of men in science are guilty of. IMHO, that second one is a way more pernicious waste of everyone's time and is way more damaging to the process of actually doing science than any momentary awkwardness that could arise from unexpected tears.
posted by en forme de poire at 3:18 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
It's also funny because on the scale of emotional reactions that I've observed people having in the course of doing biological research in an academic lab, crying doesn't even rate for me as disruptive. I would 100x prefer someone to cry in front of me in response to failure or criticism (especially since people who tend to cry are often very self-aware about it) vs., say, becoming angrily defensive or aggressive, which plenty of men in science are guilty of. IMHO, that second one is a way more pernicious waste of everyone's time and is way more damaging to the process of actually doing science than any momentary awkwardness that could arise from unexpected tears.
posted by en forme de poire at 3:18 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. "Oh so now it's a crime to ___" isn't a great way to engage with this, and "these statements would be received differently if they were said by a different person in a different context" is really neither here nor there. Maybe let's just drop these.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:44 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:44 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you can see a way to do better than repeating, yet again, a pattern of "Dude says something offensive," "people get outraged and vilify dude," "dude and dude's friends still don't understand," and "nothing changes," then why wouldn't you?
Because it's not my job to get Tim Hunt to understand why his statement was so very sexist, nor do I desire it to be. And frankly, the problem isn't "Tim Hunt doesn't understand", it's "respected scientific figure said something incredibly sexist in public". And if the solution to that problem is "figure is no longer respected", well...that's not exactly my problem now.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:54 PM on June 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
Because it's not my job to get Tim Hunt to understand why his statement was so very sexist, nor do I desire it to be. And frankly, the problem isn't "Tim Hunt doesn't understand", it's "respected scientific figure said something incredibly sexist in public". And if the solution to that problem is "figure is no longer respected", well...that's not exactly my problem now.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:54 PM on June 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
it's not that it's shocking that old dudes in positions of power can be racist or sexist or whatever - it's proof. so much of being a victim of oppression is gaslighting - so when the donald sterlings and the tim hunts of the world come out with what they really think, it shows that we're not crazy, that this is really what these people think, and that the things they think actively hurt those they're bigoted against.
Thisthisthisthisthisthisthisthisthisthis!
This.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 4:11 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Thisthisthisthisthisthisthisthisthisthis!
This.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 4:11 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm so often astonished at how stupid smart people are.
See also the difference between discovering something in the lab and making a practical working thing in the real world, which scientists are quite often amusingly bad at. This is why we have engineering as a completely separate profession.
Which, alas, has just as much of a sexism problem, of course.
posted by eriko at 4:47 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
See also the difference between discovering something in the lab and making a practical working thing in the real world, which scientists are quite often amusingly bad at. This is why we have engineering as a completely separate profession.
Which, alas, has just as much of a sexism problem, of course.
posted by eriko at 4:47 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
#ThatOtherShirt as described in "We May Get a Shirt Celebrating Women in Science" has apparently arrived to many of the Kickstarter backers. Just in time for it to be combined with the #distractinglysexy hashtag! (Link goes to Twitter account of t-shirt creator, who is retweeting pics of peeps posing in the shirt.) More pics of Ladies in Science Wearing Ladies in Science on the #ThatOtherShirt hashtag. Looks pretty sweet!
posted by none of these will bring disaster at 4:51 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by none of these will bring disaster at 4:51 PM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
#Distractinglysexy Tweets Are Female Scientists' Retort To 'Disappointing' Comments
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:20 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:20 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Re: ThatOtherShirt. I've been receiving email communication from Elly Zupko's Kickstarter - latest one says '92% of Kickstarter rewards are now in the mail!' I hope to receive mine soon.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:22 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:22 PM on June 12, 2015
Also if I was his wife, I would be absolutely livid with him for saying something that could very well lead people to assume my career was affected in any way by sleeping with him, especially since judging by a quick glance at Mary Collins's CV, they've never worked in the same lab.
Yeah, my very first thought upon looking at his comments was to wince for any female students he supervised who stayed in academia, because now I'm pretty sure all of them are dealing with people side-eyeing them and thinking "Did you fall in love with him? Did he fall in love with you? Did you cry?" in their professional lives. What a goddamn fucking asshole.
posted by sciatrix at 5:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah, my very first thought upon looking at his comments was to wince for any female students he supervised who stayed in academia, because now I'm pretty sure all of them are dealing with people side-eyeing them and thinking "Did you fall in love with him? Did he fall in love with you? Did you cry?" in their professional lives. What a goddamn fucking asshole.
posted by sciatrix at 5:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
You know what? I'm glad he said it, because it produced the #distractinglysexy backlash. I've been grinning from ear to ear as I scan entries with that hashtag; IMO, they represent feminism at its zenith.
Yes! I have also been reading them and grinning. My department's twitter has already showcased three of our students in it so far. I just registered a twitter account today, but probably won't participate since I don't actually have any good me-sciencing-photos.
One thing that does bother me lately is male students and postdocs photographing themselves and tagging it with that tag or otherwise saying "guys can be distractingly sexy too!" Sure... but you dudes aren't the ones being targeted with this bullshit, no one says this about you and assumes you can't be professional. So it feels pretty rude to me to see men--some of them men I generally like and respect--muscling in on that hashtag and centering it around them. Again.
posted by sciatrix at 5:27 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes! I have also been reading them and grinning. My department's twitter has already showcased three of our students in it so far. I just registered a twitter account today, but probably won't participate since I don't actually have any good me-sciencing-photos.
One thing that does bother me lately is male students and postdocs photographing themselves and tagging it with that tag or otherwise saying "guys can be distractingly sexy too!" Sure... but you dudes aren't the ones being targeted with this bullshit, no one says this about you and assumes you can't be professional. So it feels pretty rude to me to see men--some of them men I generally like and respect--muscling in on that hashtag and centering it around them. Again.
posted by sciatrix at 5:27 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
none of these will bring disaster: "#ThatOtherShirt as described in "We May Get a Shirt Celebrating Women in Science" has apparently arrived to many of the Kickstarter backers. Just in time for it to be combined with the #distractinglysexy hashtag! (Link goes to Twitter account of t-shirt creator, who is retweeting pics of peeps posing in the shirt.) More pics of Ladies in Science Wearing Ladies in Science on the #ThatOtherShirt hashtag. Looks pretty sweet!"
Even though it's not as garish as the original That Shirt, it's still a bit busy for my taste (I'd prefer a series of t-shirts celebrating women in science one by one, portrait style), but it's still very cool.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:31 PM on June 12, 2015
Even though it's not as garish as the original That Shirt, it's still a bit busy for my taste (I'd prefer a series of t-shirts celebrating women in science one by one, portrait style), but it's still very cool.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:31 PM on June 12, 2015
I was there... as in, five feet away from him when he uttered the remarks.
(The lecture linked above was not where he made the comments; those were his plenary remarks, which he scripted. These were off-the-cuff remarks.)
My read was definitely that it wasn't a joke -- I saw a mischievous look in his eyes... the same look that I saw a couple of hours later when he uttered, sotto voce, a comment essentially implying that science journalists were a useless bunch. Again, at a conference of science journalists.
I honestly think he went in meaning to cause a bit of a stir. And everyone tried as hard as they could to take his sexist comments as a joke at first... as a bad attempt at humor. But as he went on and on -- and we all shifted uncomfortably in our seats -- it became obvious to everybody that it was definitely not a joke.
Deb Blum, who was also there, spoke to him privately to get some clarification, and he doubled down.
As for Fiona Fox, her whole job is to try to help scientists control science journalists. No surprise that she squawks when they don't stick to her script.
posted by cgs06 at 5:32 PM on June 12, 2015 [48 favorites]
(The lecture linked above was not where he made the comments; those were his plenary remarks, which he scripted. These were off-the-cuff remarks.)
My read was definitely that it wasn't a joke -- I saw a mischievous look in his eyes... the same look that I saw a couple of hours later when he uttered, sotto voce, a comment essentially implying that science journalists were a useless bunch. Again, at a conference of science journalists.
I honestly think he went in meaning to cause a bit of a stir. And everyone tried as hard as they could to take his sexist comments as a joke at first... as a bad attempt at humor. But as he went on and on -- and we all shifted uncomfortably in our seats -- it became obvious to everybody that it was definitely not a joke.
Deb Blum, who was also there, spoke to him privately to get some clarification, and he doubled down.
As for Fiona Fox, her whole job is to try to help scientists control science journalists. No surprise that she squawks when they don't stick to her script.
posted by cgs06 at 5:32 PM on June 12, 2015 [48 favorites]
IMO public outrage and employee discipline are a poor match so I initially responded to the Fiona Fox article on that level. His situation is somewhat different as an honorary, unpaid appointee, and I am unsure what that would mean. [On preview, cgs06 comments could change that view significantly, I'd like to know more]
That said, I did loooooove the twitter response to his stupid remarks, and seeing all the awesome women of science in their labs and out collecting data and in their hazmat suits. To me, this is the appropriate response to his comments, and I hope it empowers women in science (and everywhere) to continue sticking it to those who make sexist comments and assumptions about women.
posted by chapps at 5:38 PM on June 12, 2015
That said, I did loooooove the twitter response to his stupid remarks, and seeing all the awesome women of science in their labs and out collecting data and in their hazmat suits. To me, this is the appropriate response to his comments, and I hope it empowers women in science (and everywhere) to continue sticking it to those who make sexist comments and assumptions about women.
posted by chapps at 5:38 PM on June 12, 2015
Also I very much disagree with Fiona Fox's description of the situation as a "global campaign of vilification for Tim Hunt ".
I don't think this is what the twitter feed is doing, I think it is women responding to his stupid comments, using humour to respond to not just him, but the attitude he expressed. Importantly, the twitter feed also shows great joy in science, which kind of undermines remarks like his, and how they could dissuade women from pursuing the sciences. A pretty clever response, all said.
posted by chapps at 5:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't think this is what the twitter feed is doing, I think it is women responding to his stupid comments, using humour to respond to not just him, but the attitude he expressed. Importantly, the twitter feed also shows great joy in science, which kind of undermines remarks like his, and how they could dissuade women from pursuing the sciences. A pretty clever response, all said.
posted by chapps at 5:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
The Guardian: The unseen women scientists behind Tim Hunt’s Nobel prize
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:55 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 5:55 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
cgs06, did he say something about women making the lunch, or is that a misquote? What did he fill out the rest of his speech with? Was it more of the same? From what I heard he went on digging the hole he started with such determination that some people in the audience actually started to feel sorry for him.
The BBC has been able to find a number of female scientists to defend him and say that he was a great champion of women in science, do you have any idea if that was the case? Why was he asked to speak at this event in Korea? Was he just passing by?
posted by asok at 6:01 PM on June 12, 2015
The BBC has been able to find a number of female scientists to defend him and say that he was a great champion of women in science, do you have any idea if that was the case? Why was he asked to speak at this event in Korea? Was he just passing by?
posted by asok at 6:01 PM on June 12, 2015
To be fair, it's not as if it's generally hard to find women who say "He helped my career, he was a huge source of support" whenever a famous or well-known figure in a given industry is accused of sexual misconduct, let alone "just" sexism. I'm not actually surprised they found female defenders for that. Sexist dudes aren't always equally sexist to all women that they know. Actually, in my experience, most of the time they aren't.
posted by sciatrix at 6:10 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 6:10 PM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a real problem. I've been affected by it, I'm pretty sure. I just feel sorry for the guy. He's not _trying_ to be evil.
Unfortunately, this isn't just one poor misinformed gentleman who, when shown the error of his ways, will recant his folly and be more compassionate in the future. This is one more link in a veerrrrrryy long chain of marginalization of women in science. The "leaky pipeline" is a well-known problem that almost every STEM department I've worked in has tried to fix. And this type of misogyny, whether overt or implicit, is a major impediment towards equality in science. His nonpology while doubling down on lab segregation (I mean, when has someone advocating segregation been demonstrated to be arguing in the best interests of all parties?) shows that he doesn't fucking get it.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:30 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Unfortunately, this isn't just one poor misinformed gentleman who, when shown the error of his ways, will recant his folly and be more compassionate in the future. This is one more link in a veerrrrrryy long chain of marginalization of women in science. The "leaky pipeline" is a well-known problem that almost every STEM department I've worked in has tried to fix. And this type of misogyny, whether overt or implicit, is a major impediment towards equality in science. His nonpology while doubling down on lab segregation (I mean, when has someone advocating segregation been demonstrated to be arguing in the best interests of all parties?) shows that he doesn't fucking get it.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:30 PM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
cgs06, I've also been curious about what the going 'on and on' was made up of.
posted by moira at 6:31 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by moira at 6:31 PM on June 12, 2015
I was there... as in, five feet away from him when he uttered the remarks.
Thanks for providing that context.
I'm so naive. I only dropped into this thread because I was saddened by his comments on falling in love being conflated with dress codes. One person says love, another hears sex. I'd actually convinced myself that this was an older scientist sarcastically lamenting that shifting gender dynamics would, at worst, mean more scientists fall in love with each other, and if (stereotype) women respond to criticism by crying, well so be it. Maybe it'd be a welcome change.
So in good faith, I took his comments disingenuously. And of course here, my comments were taken as disingenuous and in bad faith. That seems kind of meta.
posted by unmake at 6:33 PM on June 12, 2015
Thanks for providing that context.
I'm so naive. I only dropped into this thread because I was saddened by his comments on falling in love being conflated with dress codes. One person says love, another hears sex. I'd actually convinced myself that this was an older scientist sarcastically lamenting that shifting gender dynamics would, at worst, mean more scientists fall in love with each other, and if (stereotype) women respond to criticism by crying, well so be it. Maybe it'd be a welcome change.
So in good faith, I took his comments disingenuously. And of course here, my comments were taken as disingenuous and in bad faith. That seems kind of meta.
posted by unmake at 6:33 PM on June 12, 2015
Asok: Yes, he thanked the women for making lunch at the very beginning of his speech, but there was an ambiguity there; and since I didn't take notes, I can't go back and look at what he said more carefully. I can't swear, 100%, that he wasn't just awkwardly thanking them for the lunch we were about to have. I think there was a bite to it, but I just don't feel comfortable, without written notes, pillorying him for that one. I *can* swear that the rest of the remarks are pretty much spot on, though.
Essentially he launched right into some detail about how he was considered to be a male chauvinist, so he shouldn't really talk about such issues. But of course he then started talking.
My recollection is that he said a few things about girls -- and he consistently used the term "girls" throughout -- being able to contribute to science. And then he gave his now-famous problem with girls and boys in the same lab schtick. I remembered it as a numbered list: 1) They fall in love with you, 2) You fall in love with them, and 3) They cry if you criticize them.
He then made a few thank-yous again, and, my recollection is that he referred to himself as a "monster." The whole thing lasted maybe 3-4 minutes or so. Felt like a lot longer -- it was a slow motion car wreck.
This is all based upon memory -- and I've learned as a journalist, not to rely upon my memory for quotations, so please take this all with a grain of salt.
I'm not entirely sure why Hunt was invited (he was invited, not just passing through; I presume that he had his way paid -- as did I -- for speaking.) I never met him before, and, frankly, before this, wouldn't have known him from a hole in the wall. Don't know what his comportment was like in real life w/r/t women. Shook hands with him for the first time a few hours prior, and he seemed like a friendly guy... the only things that stood out were his loud Hawaiian shirt and his untamed bushels of nose hair. The remarks at the lunch were a complete surprise to me -- and, I think, to everyone else there.
I should also say that I have mixed feelings about what happened, and I'm not a fan of twitter mobs. But I'm not surprised that it wound up that way, and he bears quite a bit of responsibility for that because of where and when he chose to make those remarks.
The exchange was in the worst possible place -- at an event specifically linked to female science writers -- and it was complicated by the fact that we were guests in Korea. Many of our hosts didn't speak English and many of the sessions required the use of translators and earpieces, and the guests and hosts hadn't yet spent enough time with one another to be completely comfortable.
There was a huge amount of embarrassment among people in the room as they heard the speech... embarrassment because (a) he was being incredibly discourteous to our hosts and, as hosts, they would never feel able to respond, and (b) that we guests were unable to respond either, lest we cause our hosts further embarrassment. I don't think people in the room felt sorry for Hunt, as much as they felt that embarrassment for him as well as for themselves.
During the speech, we all gritted our teeth and didn't confront him on the spot... but the simmering anger came out through snide remarks amongst ourselves, and then twitter, thanks to Connie St. Louis. (Who, by the way, is awesome. Never met her before, either, but I'm now a fan -- for reasons having nothing to do with Tim Hunt.)
posted by cgs06 at 6:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [38 favorites]
Essentially he launched right into some detail about how he was considered to be a male chauvinist, so he shouldn't really talk about such issues. But of course he then started talking.
My recollection is that he said a few things about girls -- and he consistently used the term "girls" throughout -- being able to contribute to science. And then he gave his now-famous problem with girls and boys in the same lab schtick. I remembered it as a numbered list: 1) They fall in love with you, 2) You fall in love with them, and 3) They cry if you criticize them.
He then made a few thank-yous again, and, my recollection is that he referred to himself as a "monster." The whole thing lasted maybe 3-4 minutes or so. Felt like a lot longer -- it was a slow motion car wreck.
This is all based upon memory -- and I've learned as a journalist, not to rely upon my memory for quotations, so please take this all with a grain of salt.
I'm not entirely sure why Hunt was invited (he was invited, not just passing through; I presume that he had his way paid -- as did I -- for speaking.) I never met him before, and, frankly, before this, wouldn't have known him from a hole in the wall. Don't know what his comportment was like in real life w/r/t women. Shook hands with him for the first time a few hours prior, and he seemed like a friendly guy... the only things that stood out were his loud Hawaiian shirt and his untamed bushels of nose hair. The remarks at the lunch were a complete surprise to me -- and, I think, to everyone else there.
I should also say that I have mixed feelings about what happened, and I'm not a fan of twitter mobs. But I'm not surprised that it wound up that way, and he bears quite a bit of responsibility for that because of where and when he chose to make those remarks.
The exchange was in the worst possible place -- at an event specifically linked to female science writers -- and it was complicated by the fact that we were guests in Korea. Many of our hosts didn't speak English and many of the sessions required the use of translators and earpieces, and the guests and hosts hadn't yet spent enough time with one another to be completely comfortable.
There was a huge amount of embarrassment among people in the room as they heard the speech... embarrassment because (a) he was being incredibly discourteous to our hosts and, as hosts, they would never feel able to respond, and (b) that we guests were unable to respond either, lest we cause our hosts further embarrassment. I don't think people in the room felt sorry for Hunt, as much as they felt that embarrassment for him as well as for themselves.
During the speech, we all gritted our teeth and didn't confront him on the spot... but the simmering anger came out through snide remarks amongst ourselves, and then twitter, thanks to Connie St. Louis. (Who, by the way, is awesome. Never met her before, either, but I'm now a fan -- for reasons having nothing to do with Tim Hunt.)
posted by cgs06 at 6:35 PM on June 12, 2015 [38 favorites]
Frankly, I think it's just as creepy if he's falling in love with them. If my supervisor fell in love with me and let me know about it--the only thing I can think of likely to cause the kind of workplace strife he talks about--it would be incredibly unsettling and incredibly creepy. Not cute.
Look. This is my fucking job on the line. I don't give a shit how you feel about me in your pants. I need to be able to come to work and do my goddamn job. And if this dude is falling in love with his students and seeing them primarily as potential romantic or sexual partners instead of potential colleagues, that's going to damage the fuck out of those students' careers and their ability to be effective in their workplace environment. And worse, he explicitly says that he doesn't want to work with women because of that "falling in love" possibility. That's one fewer networking opportunity that women don't have but men do. That's fucking textbook sexism!
posted by sciatrix at 6:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [26 favorites]
Look. This is my fucking job on the line. I don't give a shit how you feel about me in your pants. I need to be able to come to work and do my goddamn job. And if this dude is falling in love with his students and seeing them primarily as potential romantic or sexual partners instead of potential colleagues, that's going to damage the fuck out of those students' careers and their ability to be effective in their workplace environment. And worse, he explicitly says that he doesn't want to work with women because of that "falling in love" possibility. That's one fewer networking opportunity that women don't have but men do. That's fucking textbook sexism!
posted by sciatrix at 6:38 PM on June 12, 2015 [26 favorites]
God. This whole situation reminds me of the time I spent an afternoon patiently explaining to a male undergraduate in my lab why it isn't okay to whine that all the female profs you know are "scary" and "aggressive" and "intimidating," and why they get that way in the first place. Because you have to put up with a lot of crap and you have to be better and want more out of it to get your job and keep it, and that's especially true of women who are higher up the academic hierarchy and fought through even more cumulative sexism to get there.
After I was done, he looked at me, tilted his head, and went "Ooooohhhh." I thought he finally got it, and maybe he would see the women around him as actual people who have reasons for acting the way that they do. And then he said "...does it make it better if I think it's really attractive?" and I threw up my hands in the air and wailed that this is my goddamn job and that I do not care what personally floats his boat.
And this was an undergraduate speaking to a graduate student he appeared to want to impress. I've had worse from people who were actually senior to me, every woman I know has. No one wants to be seen as a potential date when they are trying to be seen as a capable professional. And it is so not okay for men to promote that view of women in the workplace, especially senior men and especially especially when they are senior men talking about junior women under their direct supervision.
Jesus christ.
posted by sciatrix at 6:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [28 favorites]
After I was done, he looked at me, tilted his head, and went "Ooooohhhh." I thought he finally got it, and maybe he would see the women around him as actual people who have reasons for acting the way that they do. And then he said "...does it make it better if I think it's really attractive?" and I threw up my hands in the air and wailed that this is my goddamn job and that I do not care what personally floats his boat.
And this was an undergraduate speaking to a graduate student he appeared to want to impress. I've had worse from people who were actually senior to me, every woman I know has. No one wants to be seen as a potential date when they are trying to be seen as a capable professional. And it is so not okay for men to promote that view of women in the workplace, especially senior men and especially especially when they are senior men talking about junior women under their direct supervision.
Jesus christ.
posted by sciatrix at 6:48 PM on June 12, 2015 [28 favorites]
So I spent 20 years in a lab and see hypotheses as my natural prey - so much so that I'd loose and then casually slaughter a dozen of them or so every morning just going over the previous day's data, and then I'd design an experiment to brutally slay any survivors tough enough to make it through that romp. And I did this with glee and zeal. So much so that if you are the kind of person who gets really attached to your pet theory, I am the biggest asshole you'll ever meet. And women slightly outnumbered men in my department so, if I was trying to make them cry with my insistence that one's hypothesis really ought to fly in formation with one's data, I had plenty of shots on goal. So tears a plenty, right?
Not. Fucking. Once.
Oh, there were raised voices and insistence that things like the Einstein Stokes equation and Michaelis Menten kinetics were just theoretical, but, let's just say that didn't correlate well with sitting down to pee. Maybe there's some hidden variable in Dr. Hunt's experiences that just isn't well controlled. Like, oh, something subtle and exotic, like being a dick to women and making it less about their data and more about what they have down their knickers. Clearly more experimentation is in order.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:54 PM on June 12, 2015 [12 favorites]
Not. Fucking. Once.
Oh, there were raised voices and insistence that things like the Einstein Stokes equation and Michaelis Menten kinetics were just theoretical, but, let's just say that didn't correlate well with sitting down to pee. Maybe there's some hidden variable in Dr. Hunt's experiences that just isn't well controlled. Like, oh, something subtle and exotic, like being a dick to women and making it less about their data and more about what they have down their knickers. Clearly more experimentation is in order.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:54 PM on June 12, 2015 [12 favorites]
Michaelis Menten kinetics
This might be a good place to mention that the Menten in Michaelis-Menten was a woman, Maud Menten. I find many people are unaware of this. We should all be glad Leonor Michaelis didn't suffer from Tim Hunt's biases, more than a century ago.
posted by grouse at 8:07 PM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
This might be a good place to mention that the Menten in Michaelis-Menten was a woman, Maud Menten. I find many people are unaware of this. We should all be glad Leonor Michaelis didn't suffer from Tim Hunt's biases, more than a century ago.
posted by grouse at 8:07 PM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
...this is my goddamn job and that I do not care what personally floats his boat.
OTOH, agreeing with the statement "Competence is sexy." is probably a pretty good predictor of whether or not you're the sort of person I want to hang around with, no matter their gender or relationship status.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:18 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
OTOH, agreeing with the statement "Competence is sexy." is probably a pretty good predictor of whether or not you're the sort of person I want to hang around with, no matter their gender or relationship status.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:18 PM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
OTOH, agreeing with the statement "Competence is sexy." is probably a pretty good predictor of whether or not you're the sort of person I want to hang around with, no matter their gender or relationship status.
That's funny, my predictor is "having some read on what times and places and people are appropriate for talking about what you think is sexy."
posted by kagredon at 8:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
That's funny, my predictor is "having some read on what times and places and people are appropriate for talking about what you think is sexy."
posted by kagredon at 8:24 PM on June 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
~nobody cares about your boners~
posted by NoraReed at 8:37 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 8:37 PM on June 12, 2015 [23 favorites]
As ernielundquist notes, Tim Hunt was an undergraduate in the 1960s (admittedly at an all-male college), a postgraduate in the late 60s, and was running a lab until the 2000s. The 'he's old' excuse doesn't really wash any more.
I have a lot of friends from college who did lab science, often to PhD level and beyond. Some stayed in academia, some went into the private sector, others left for very different jobs. (More women than men left for very different jobs.) The women had to be more careful in choosing their lab projects and doctoral fields, because there were research groups run by old male professors who weren't really convinced that women had a place in their labs. Those women greeted Hunt's comments with weary familiarity. It is better now than it was 20 years ago. But it needs to stay better, and coming down on those comments like a ton of bricks isn't about condemning one person: it's about declaring a set of attitudes fully retired.
posted by holgate at 8:59 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have a lot of friends from college who did lab science, often to PhD level and beyond. Some stayed in academia, some went into the private sector, others left for very different jobs. (More women than men left for very different jobs.) The women had to be more careful in choosing their lab projects and doctoral fields, because there were research groups run by old male professors who weren't really convinced that women had a place in their labs. Those women greeted Hunt's comments with weary familiarity. It is better now than it was 20 years ago. But it needs to stay better, and coming down on those comments like a ton of bricks isn't about condemning one person: it's about declaring a set of attitudes fully retired.
posted by holgate at 8:59 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sciatrix: No one wants to be seen as a potential date when they are trying to be seen as a capable professional.
This is why, after two semesters, I requested that I no longer be in charge of the interns. For every go-getting, hard-news-chasing college senior we had, there were several who seemed to think they could charm their way into a job via Mrs. Robinson, i.e., me, and I'm TWENTY-SIX.
I don't know who is teaching the current crop of undergrads to interview, but they are fucking it up hard.
posted by none of these will bring disaster at 9:08 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is why, after two semesters, I requested that I no longer be in charge of the interns. For every go-getting, hard-news-chasing college senior we had, there were several who seemed to think they could charm their way into a job via Mrs. Robinson, i.e., me, and I'm TWENTY-SIX.
I don't know who is teaching the current crop of undergrads to interview, but they are fucking it up hard.
posted by none of these will bring disaster at 9:08 PM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Reading cgs06's comments reminded me of the Snoop Dog situation from earlier this week. I guess there is a feeling of security that arises when onstage giving a speech or in front of a camera giving an interview: that you can say whatever you want and no one is going to confront you.
posted by mantecol at 12:54 AM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mantecol at 12:54 AM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
...coming down on those comments like a ton of bricks isn't about condemning one person: it's about declaring a set of attitudes fully retired.
This.
posted by amtho at 4:57 AM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
This.
posted by amtho at 4:57 AM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is nothing wrong with falling in love in the workplace. How many opportunities do we get to fall in love? Work is a huge part of our lives.
If there must be an emotional response, I'll take crying over anger any day. I'd hate to think what Mr. Hunt would think of a man crying.
posted by Bovine Love at 5:56 AM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
If there must be an emotional response, I'll take crying over anger any day. I'd hate to think what Mr. Hunt would think of a man crying.
posted by Bovine Love at 5:56 AM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
You can't just wave off this guy's cretinism as being a product of his age and times. My father turns 70 this year, he's two years younger than Hunt. He's a radiochemist; he got his Ph.D. at the University of London, the same institution Hunt taught at. He hasn't won a Nobel or anything, but he's reasonably well-regarded within his field. He has hired dozens of women and mentored I don't even know how many female graduate students, the most recent of whom was so overwhelmingly promising ("brilliant" was the term he used) that he delayed his retirement to ensure that he could see her through and make sure she got the opportunities he deserved. He had so many women working in his labs that as a child I assumed that a career in laboratory sciences was the expected employment path for a woman -- and they weren't eye-batting emotionally labile crushes, either, they were brilliant, dedicated scientists who were respected colleagues.
Thirty years ago, in 1985, he told me that if he was reviewing two resumes for a position that were roughly equally impressive, one for a male candidate and one for a female one? he would always remind the hiring committee that for a woman to have a resume just as impressive as a man's, she would have to be smarter, more passionate, and harder working, just to overcome the institutional sexism within the sciences. He worked with the local Girl Scout organizations when I was a kid, doing chemistry demos and organizing paper airplane folding and flying contests and getting the troops in to tour his lab, to help give girls the opportunity to realize that their talents and interests lay in the sciences. And in his own home, although he treated my brother and I differently in a lot of respects, there was never a whiff of inequality in the way he promoted science to us and encouraged us in our explorations.
Is he perfect? of course not. He's a human being. But he was always not just happy but eager to have women in the lab, and he always actively worked against the pressures that would keep them out. Don't let Hunt off the hook because of his age.
posted by KathrynT at 10:34 AM on June 13, 2015 [60 favorites]
Thirty years ago, in 1985, he told me that if he was reviewing two resumes for a position that were roughly equally impressive, one for a male candidate and one for a female one? he would always remind the hiring committee that for a woman to have a resume just as impressive as a man's, she would have to be smarter, more passionate, and harder working, just to overcome the institutional sexism within the sciences. He worked with the local Girl Scout organizations when I was a kid, doing chemistry demos and organizing paper airplane folding and flying contests and getting the troops in to tour his lab, to help give girls the opportunity to realize that their talents and interests lay in the sciences. And in his own home, although he treated my brother and I differently in a lot of respects, there was never a whiff of inequality in the way he promoted science to us and encouraged us in our explorations.
Is he perfect? of course not. He's a human being. But he was always not just happy but eager to have women in the lab, and he always actively worked against the pressures that would keep them out. Don't let Hunt off the hook because of his age.
posted by KathrynT at 10:34 AM on June 13, 2015 [60 favorites]
Your dad sounds pretty awesome!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:06 AM on June 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:06 AM on June 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
One of the more nuanced responses I've seen here - reflecting on the broader implications for how we think about and embody professionalism
posted by melisande at 12:58 PM on June 13, 2015
posted by melisande at 12:58 PM on June 13, 2015
The Guardian has just published an interview with Hunt and his wife, Prof. Mary Collins.
posted by adrianhon at 1:32 PM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 1:32 PM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't even know what to do with that Guardian interview. He doesn't even really have a defense, except "I was nervous" (because Nobel prize winners never have to give speeches and when people are nervous they generally turn to telling really offensive "jokes"). But he and his wife are both really outraged that telling really offensive "jokes" in a Women In Science panel at an international meeting can have consequences.
posted by hydropsyche at 2:18 PM on June 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 2:18 PM on June 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
Cgs06's update about the incident makes it sound like he was being really obnoxious and wanting to get on a soapbox about something.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:47 PM on June 13, 2015
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:47 PM on June 13, 2015
Then he should own that. He got his soapbox. People didn't like it. Soapboxes have consequences.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:19 AM on June 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:19 AM on June 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Guardian has just published an interview with Hunt and his wife, Prof. Mary Collins.
It says he's had to resign from the European Research Council as well. Good.
posted by grouse at 6:21 AM on June 14, 2015
It says he's had to resign from the European Research Council as well. Good.
posted by grouse at 6:21 AM on June 14, 2015
I was initially thinking, "oh he sounds like my dad, he's just old", but then I remembered that my dad would be almost 90 by now and this guy is a whole generation younger. There's no real excuse for being that clueless in this day and age.
Oh and I'm not a scientist but I certainly cried more than once in grad school.
posted by octothorpe at 6:45 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh and I'm not a scientist but I certainly cried more than once in grad school.
posted by octothorpe at 6:45 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I work in a lab, so for me this is personal. And completely unacceptable. I'm currently the only woman in my building, let alone my lab. Segregated labs. Seriously. We don't have the funding to build the labs we need, let alone build them in duplicate. I just can't even with this.
I have been loving the "wearing all the lab PPE" photos though. I spent a few minutes digging out a photo of myself doing fieldwork, but it required me to work out how to make twitter go. I've got a long day in the lab tomorrow, melting a greenland ice core (with a co-ed team of scientists), so I think I'll go to bed instead.
posted by kjs4 at 7:16 AM on June 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have been loving the "wearing all the lab PPE" photos though. I spent a few minutes digging out a photo of myself doing fieldwork, but it required me to work out how to make twitter go. I've got a long day in the lab tomorrow, melting a greenland ice core (with a co-ed team of scientists), so I think I'll go to bed instead.
posted by kjs4 at 7:16 AM on June 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
I was initially thinking, "oh he sounds like my dad, he's just old", but then I remembered that my dad would be almost 90 by now and this guy is a whole generation younger.
Yeah, this guy literally grew up during second wave feminism. He had ample opportunities to learn not to be a misogynist douche.
posted by KathrynT at 2:21 PM on June 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this guy literally grew up during second wave feminism. He had ample opportunities to learn not to be a misogynist douche.
posted by KathrynT at 2:21 PM on June 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
"'Tim sat on the sofa and started crying,' says Collins."
So, like, he cries when people criticize him?
posted by naoko at 2:40 PM on June 14, 2015 [25 favorites]
So, like, he cries when people criticize him?
posted by naoko at 2:40 PM on June 14, 2015 [25 favorites]
If you think about it, in 70 years I'm sure he had ample evidence to disprove this theory, or at least to suggest that it was neither an across-the-board gender trait nor a universal constant. And yet he still has this theory.
So maybe that in and of itself is sufficient reason for him to be jobless, since he has lost the ability to evaluate experiential evidence in a lab setting.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:31 PM on June 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
So maybe that in and of itself is sufficient reason for him to be jobless, since he has lost the ability to evaluate experiential evidence in a lab setting.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:31 PM on June 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mary Beard, 50 Shades Of Sexism
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:55 PM on June 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:55 PM on June 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Giving someone a pass because of their age is just the other side of the coin to dismissing someone because of their age. Old people are stuck in their ways. Young people are naive and self absorbed. We can safely ignore them all.
Older people might slip up every now and again with terminology or a minor oversight here and there, but to just assume that everyone stagnates at some point in young adulthood is ridiculous to the point that it smells almost like projection. Not everyone just mindlessly adopts whatever cultural norms happen to be in vogue at some specific point in their lives.
This guy did get raked over the coals a little overmuch, but he also dug in his heels overmuch, and betrayed himself as a pretty regressive thinker. That has nothing to do with his age. That wasn't a slip up. That was a pretty thought out bit of thoughtlessness that he deserved to be taunted for publicly, just as he publicly taunted all the women he's worked with.
That has nothing to do with his age, though. There are plenty of under 30s who would say what he said and worse, and there are plenty of over 70s who don't deserve to be painted with that brush.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:40 PM on June 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Older people might slip up every now and again with terminology or a minor oversight here and there, but to just assume that everyone stagnates at some point in young adulthood is ridiculous to the point that it smells almost like projection. Not everyone just mindlessly adopts whatever cultural norms happen to be in vogue at some specific point in their lives.
This guy did get raked over the coals a little overmuch, but he also dug in his heels overmuch, and betrayed himself as a pretty regressive thinker. That has nothing to do with his age. That wasn't a slip up. That was a pretty thought out bit of thoughtlessness that he deserved to be taunted for publicly, just as he publicly taunted all the women he's worked with.
That has nothing to do with his age, though. There are plenty of under 30s who would say what he said and worse, and there are plenty of over 70s who don't deserve to be painted with that brush.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:40 PM on June 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Deborah Blum was the other invited keynote speaker that day, and she provides some context of what it was like to be in a room full of enthusiastic women scientists when Hunt made his remarks as well as her conversation afterwards at lunch that confirmed that he was not joking.
Male biologists PZ Myers and Michael Eisen also think that Hunt is an embarassment to biology.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:44 AM on June 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
Male biologists PZ Myers and Michael Eisen also think that Hunt is an embarassment to biology.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:44 AM on June 15, 2015 [6 favorites]
Thanks for the Mary Beard commentary man of twists and turns, I think she is (not surprisingly) spot on.
I particularly liked this:
"I was planning a little outburst in which I reflected on how terribly awkward it was working with men because they always believed you fancied them when you didn’t, and because they always bottled up their feelings and didn't “share"".
Ha!
posted by chapps at 9:12 AM on June 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I particularly liked this:
"I was planning a little outburst in which I reflected on how terribly awkward it was working with men because they always believed you fancied them when you didn’t, and because they always bottled up their feelings and didn't “share"".
Ha!
posted by chapps at 9:12 AM on June 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think some of those #distractinglysexy tweets were actually sexy. Intelligent attractive women are sexy. Who doesn't have a thing for archaeologists? The problem comes not from finding them thus, but from finding then distracting.
I hope that in another 30 years I'm able to be more nimble with my thinking than Hunt. His views would have probably been perfectly acceptable in the decade he formed them. Too bad he didn't stay current.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:40 AM on June 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hope that in another 30 years I'm able to be more nimble with my thinking than Hunt. His views would have probably been perfectly acceptable in the decade he formed them. Too bad he didn't stay current.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:40 AM on June 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Who doesn't have a thing for archaeologists?
Reader, I married one.
posted by octothorpe at 11:06 AM on June 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Reader, I married one.
posted by octothorpe at 11:06 AM on June 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
From adrianhon's link above (Tim Hunt: ‘I’ve been hung out to dry. They haven’t even bothered to ask for my side of affairs’, The Guardian):
Hunt and Collins live in a whitewashed cottage in rural Hertfordshire. The main room is crammed, like the rest of the house, with books, mostly on science, cooking and gardening. There is an original signed Warhol picture on one wall and a pair of medieval prints that once belonged to Hunt’s father, Richard, an Oxford historian.posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 6:14 AM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
The house has a beautifully tended garden that overlooks rolling hills and which features some particularly healthy-looking quince trees.
“When Tim is not travelling for work, he does all the shopping and the cooking,” says Collins. “He is actually a great cook. Our daughters both prefer his meals to mine. And he is certainly not an old dinosaur. He just says silly things now and again.”
Sitting on a sofa with his wife, Hunt tries to explain why he made the remarks that got him into trouble while Collins groans in despair as he outlines his behaviour. Hunt had been invited to the world conference of science journalists in Seoul and had been asked to speak at a meeting about women in science. His brief remarks contained 39 words that have subsequently come to haunt him.
“Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. Three things happen when they are in the lab. You fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them, they cry,” he told delegates.
“I stood up and went mad,” he admits. “I was very nervous and a bit confused but, yes, I made those remarks – which were inexcusable – but I made them in a totally jocular, ironic way. There was some polite applause and that was it, I thought. I thought everything was OK. No one accused me of being a sexist pig.”
“When Tim is not travelling for work, he does all the shopping and the cooking,” says Collins. “He is actually a great cook. Our daughters both prefer his meals to mine. And he is certainly not an old dinosaur. He just says silly things now and again.”
He cooks better than me therefore he's a feminist....duh guys.
posted by edbles at 11:39 AM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
He cooks better than me therefore he's a feminist....duh guys.
posted by edbles at 11:39 AM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the twittersphere. And the piece quoted in the tweet: Sexist Scientist: I Was Being ‘Honest’ by Deborah Blum:
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:23 PM on June 16, 2015
"As St. Louis recounted yesterday, she, Oransky, and I sat down, and compared our notes to make sure we had an accurate account. We wanted to call out the remarks but we didn’t want to be heavy-handed about it or to be rude to our hosts. Yes, journalists really think like this. So we fretted over it; we decided to keep it simple. Connie [St Louis] would tweet the event; Ivan and I would retweet her. And that’s what we did.The Mayor Of London And These Scientists Are Defending Tim Hunt And His Sexist Remarks - BuzzFeed
"Our idea was just to get it on the record. .."
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:23 PM on June 16, 2015
i have too much on my plate right now to make a single-serve website about what richard dawkins is fucking up at any given moment but maybe someone who already follows the shits he keeps taking everywhere in the name of atheism and science and whatever should totally do that. maybe "it has been __ days since richard dawkins said something ______" with different counters for misogyny, islamophobia, etc
posted by NoraReed at 11:51 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 11:51 PM on June 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
lol, Dawkins is supporting him? This is my surprised face :-| <---
posted by en forme de poire at 11:13 AM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 11:13 AM on June 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I thought this piece commenting on actual problems facing academics in terms of "free speech" and changes in academic freedom was very thoughtful.
posted by sciatrix at 11:07 AM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 11:07 AM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
That is a great post, sciatrix ... and even the comments (so far!) are good. From the first commenter, comparing the Hunt story to the problems in his workplace (and noting his own role as a male middle manager facing the problem of dealing with harassment complaints at work). He notes:
"We have a cadre of specifically CIS white males who believe in equality in the workplace and openly support feminism but have never been challenged to apply those concepts in day-to-day life until now. And the problem is that the system that brought them up did not even consider teaching them about these values. That I think is troubling."
I find this is true for me, a woman, and manager. There are some cases that are very clear, that you can document, and you can respond to. And then there are other cases where it is less clear, that you can't really document, that there is a feeling that something is wrong but you can't prove it, and this is a nightmare to try to respond to as a manger in any way other than general education that may or may not be received in any useful way.
posted by chapps at 1:19 PM on June 18, 2015
"We have a cadre of specifically CIS white males who believe in equality in the workplace and openly support feminism but have never been challenged to apply those concepts in day-to-day life until now. And the problem is that the system that brought them up did not even consider teaching them about these values. That I think is troubling."
I find this is true for me, a woman, and manager. There are some cases that are very clear, that you can document, and you can respond to. And then there are other cases where it is less clear, that you can't really document, that there is a feeling that something is wrong but you can't prove it, and this is a nightmare to try to respond to as a manger in any way other than general education that may or may not be received in any useful way.
posted by chapps at 1:19 PM on June 18, 2015
I know it's late to the thread, but I was thinking about this all week while away from the internet (I'm in Cote d'Ivoire doing fieldwork on primate behavior and endocrinology) and getting angrier and angrier.
Ever since I started seriously pursuing academic science in college, this tension between being the kind of generically feminine person I am naturally, and being a Serious Scientist has been evident, and I've been working to subsume the parts of my personality and experience which might be deemed Too Feminine to Be A Serious Field Scientist. OK, so girls are problematic because they dress distractingly in the field? Alright, I will wear knee-length shorts and long sleeved shirt while doing paleontological fieldwork in the desert of northwestern Kenya. Oh wait - not good enough, and I still get upbraided by one of my supervisors for being distracting to the men working for us.
Girls are prone to drama and lots of emotion? I'll be so easygoing and willing to compromise that there is no possibility for complications arising as a result of my presence. Oh wait - not good enough either, and when I have a conflict with another (female) student working at my research site, a male PhD asks me if it's because we are sleeping with the same Ivorian man (... we are not. And it is not). Girls are scared that things might be dangerous? Ask me how many times I've been sexually assaulted and/or harassed while doing fieldwork, and how many times I've complained to my supervisor or decided not to do something because I was afraid of being the lone woman surrounded by a number of men from a different culture who speak a different language with totally different ways of interacting with men (more than I care to recall, and not at all).
And yet, my advisor says he'll always remember me sitting in camp - not wandering around in the forest chasing my monkeys, snakes and leopards be damned. And that doesn't include the time I was sent literally across the country to be "the estrogen in the room" during budget negotiations rather than being the person negotiating the budget, for example, or having my management of project logistics acknowledged, or when I was told I was "dutiful" for helping my partner take care of his father who had just had a serious stroke, or someone suggested I was lucky to have my advisor because he's So Dreamy, or the time someone told me not to apply to work with a particular professor because he's prone to sleeping with his graduate students.
Yes, us girl scientists, we cry and we distract and we provoke people to fall in love just by virtue of being girls. Fuck that noise. Men need to clean up their act. This shit is poisonous and infuriating and I'm so tired of it and I've only been in it for 9 years. Girding myself for an entire career of being a Girl Scientist is exhausting, but I guess it's the only thing to do.
posted by ChuraChura at 3:30 AM on June 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Ever since I started seriously pursuing academic science in college, this tension between being the kind of generically feminine person I am naturally, and being a Serious Scientist has been evident, and I've been working to subsume the parts of my personality and experience which might be deemed Too Feminine to Be A Serious Field Scientist. OK, so girls are problematic because they dress distractingly in the field? Alright, I will wear knee-length shorts and long sleeved shirt while doing paleontological fieldwork in the desert of northwestern Kenya. Oh wait - not good enough, and I still get upbraided by one of my supervisors for being distracting to the men working for us.
Girls are prone to drama and lots of emotion? I'll be so easygoing and willing to compromise that there is no possibility for complications arising as a result of my presence. Oh wait - not good enough either, and when I have a conflict with another (female) student working at my research site, a male PhD asks me if it's because we are sleeping with the same Ivorian man (... we are not. And it is not). Girls are scared that things might be dangerous? Ask me how many times I've been sexually assaulted and/or harassed while doing fieldwork, and how many times I've complained to my supervisor or decided not to do something because I was afraid of being the lone woman surrounded by a number of men from a different culture who speak a different language with totally different ways of interacting with men (more than I care to recall, and not at all).
And yet, my advisor says he'll always remember me sitting in camp - not wandering around in the forest chasing my monkeys, snakes and leopards be damned. And that doesn't include the time I was sent literally across the country to be "the estrogen in the room" during budget negotiations rather than being the person negotiating the budget, for example, or having my management of project logistics acknowledged, or when I was told I was "dutiful" for helping my partner take care of his father who had just had a serious stroke, or someone suggested I was lucky to have my advisor because he's So Dreamy, or the time someone told me not to apply to work with a particular professor because he's prone to sleeping with his graduate students.
Yes, us girl scientists, we cry and we distract and we provoke people to fall in love just by virtue of being girls. Fuck that noise. Men need to clean up their act. This shit is poisonous and infuriating and I'm so tired of it and I've only been in it for 9 years. Girding myself for an entire career of being a Girl Scientist is exhausting, but I guess it's the only thing to do.
posted by ChuraChura at 3:30 AM on June 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
I’m a female scientist, and I agree with Tim Hunt:
One time, I knocked over a vat of acid because I saw a baby duck through a window and I couldn’t stop crying. My uncontrollable biological clock killed six people that day. While menstruating, I once savagely castrated a visiting speaker because I ran out of chocolate. These may be appropriate actions for women in the domestic sphere, but they’re certainly not acceptable in the realms of science and academia.posted by NoraReed at 4:50 PM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I firmly endorse Sir Tim’s suggestion that labs be segregated by gender. That way, men can work on men’s science, like physics and chemistry, and women can do women’s science, which I think involves sitting in a quilting circle and making sure our cycles are synced
In fact, many women managed to get into university through the domestic sciences.
posted by chapps at 6:48 PM on June 22, 2015
In fact, many women managed to get into university through the domestic sciences.
posted by chapps at 6:48 PM on June 22, 2015
Yeah, in, like, 1950.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:31 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:31 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well said, EmpressCallipygos, I meant exactly that--and I should have clarified that the quotation is from the excellent satirical link posted by NoraReed. But I ended up sounding like the Well Actually Cat.
Ages and ages ago I took a course on women and science that looked at the history of how women managed to get into universities and study science, and "science of the home" was one way women managed to subvert ideas about what they could do, and study chemistry. My great aunt may have been one of those early women students as she attended UBC in 1922, and she came from a family that believed in the education of women very strongly.
Dr. Tim is indeed from a different era--I'd set his educational ideas back in the 1920s.
posted by chapps at 10:31 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ages and ages ago I took a course on women and science that looked at the history of how women managed to get into universities and study science, and "science of the home" was one way women managed to subvert ideas about what they could do, and study chemistry. My great aunt may have been one of those early women students as she attended UBC in 1922, and she came from a family that believed in the education of women very strongly.
Dr. Tim is indeed from a different era--I'd set his educational ideas back in the 1920s.
posted by chapps at 10:31 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
My grandmother attended Georgia Women's College in the 1930s, where she double-majored in Chemistry and Home Economics. She went on to work for decades for what she always called "The Welfare Office", teaching modern nutrition and cooking skills to women in rural Georgia. When I think of the women scientists who came before me and paved the way, she is always on the list.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:46 AM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:46 AM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Which hunt? - Slate, Phil Plait:
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:18 PM on July 1, 2015
"Hunt’s comments and the defense of them were bad enough, but the situation has taken an even worse turn.Hyperlinks in the piece.
The execrable Daily Mail has waded into this. On Friday, it published what can only be called a hit piece on Connie St. Louis which, bizarrely, was endorsed by Dawkins.
To say the article is problematic is to severely understate the case. It attacks St. Louis’ credentials; however, she is an award-winning journalist, former president of the Association of British Science Writers and was recently elected to the board of the World Federation of Science Journalists. The City University London (where she is a senior lecturer) has publicly supported her after the Daily Mail article came out. St. Louis points out numerous errors in the article there as well.
Not-so-incidentally, the very basis of the attack appears to be based on nothing as well."
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:18 PM on July 1, 2015
Free speech for Tim Hunt … but not his critics - The Skeptical OB:
Why do men like [Jonathan] Dimbleby have such trouble understanding a concept as basic as free speech? Free speech means that you are free from government control of your speech. It does NOT mean that are free from consequences of your speech.posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:22 PM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
The government of the UK did not prevent Tim Hunt from speaking his mind. That doesn’t mean that the University College of London isn’t equally free to condemn him for what he said. Curiously, Hunt’s apologists don’t seem to think that their expansive definition of “free speech” applies to Connie St. Louis. Many have gleefully torn her reputation to shreds when there is no evidence of that her reporting of Hunt’s behavior was anything other than truthful.
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