"And the sun sets...."
June 21, 2015 4:23 PM   Subscribe

"Allow us to raise your spirits with a story about the liberating and energizing effects of complete commercial failure." After 12 years, and following the release last month of their critically acclaimed game Sunset, videogame creators Tale of Tales are closing shop.
posted by jokeefe (43 comments total) 11 users marked this as a favorite
 
Alas. I've bought and played and very much enjoyed all their games.
posted by crush-onastick at 4:33 PM on June 21, 2015


$NZ25 for an art game is, sadly, optimistic in the current climate.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:39 PM on June 21, 2015


"It’s hard to deal with this intense feeling of disappointment in a context of glowing reviews and compliments and encouragement from players. A small group of people clearly deeply appreciates what we do and we curse the economic system that doesn’t allow us to be pleased with that."

Change 'players' to 'scholars' and this perfectly describes my feelings about the end of my career. I feel for them.
posted by Beardman at 4:44 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]


We are happy and proud that we have tried to make a “game for gamers.”

They discovered there's only 4,000 real "gamers" in the world...
posted by xdvesper at 4:53 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


This was a pretty depressing read.

I have to admit that I had heard good things about this game from several sources and sort of thought "Well, one of these days maybe".

Given the ridiculous pace of the industry these days and the ludicrous number of games on Steam, if you thought the above once, it's almost certain you'll never buy the game.

This game even got a bit more press than the usual new release on Steam.

I get the feeling that the PC games market is going to be quite a bit different in a few years, and not necessarily for the better...
posted by selfnoise at 5:10 PM on June 21, 2015


The market looks about as healthy as its ever been from where I'm sitting. What problems do you forsee?
posted by Justinian at 5:12 PM on June 21, 2015


Oh, Tale of Tales. I love the idea of you, but never really enjoyed your execution. It's too bad not enough people loved both. Someday I'll finish playing The Path instead of letting it freak me out completely, or I'll sit through Luxuria Superbia without feeling like some kind of phonosexual.

One thing that does surprise me is that Gone Home seems to have done amazingly well while operating in a similar, but simpler space. It's like Fullbright Corporation is the funky art house movie theater that shows some foreign movies with subtitles, while Tale of Tales is the slightly-funkier art house movie theater that shows very similar foreign movies with subtitles, but the subtitles are all in Swahili and the audio has been David-Lynched.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:18 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


I agree about ToT. It had a fine concept but the execution wasn't all that great. Additionally I'm not sure the $20 price point will work for a game like that. Sure, Gone Home, but I think that's going to prove to be lightning in a bottle which does not repeat.
posted by Justinian at 5:22 PM on June 21, 2015


(I meant I agree about Sunset, not the studio ToT)
posted by Justinian at 5:23 PM on June 21, 2015


I am enormously frustrated that they've excised seemingly all of their writing and interviews with other leading artistic developers from their site; it took some poking around to find decent archives, and that isn't anywhere near complete. There is a wealth of great stuff on the various incarnations of their blog which, despite what it says in that copy, has never actually died. I'd recommend the interviews with Takayoshi Sato (Silent Hill creator, animator for SH1+2 as well as artist/character designer for ToT's own Fatale and director of SH2) and Jenova Chen (Journey, Flower) in particular.

If the pessimism seems surprising in light of more recent games like Gone Home finding success, bear in mind that ToT were doing this stuff back when the consensus within games culture and writing was that they were terrible people who were ruining games with pretentiousness and so forth. Many of their projects have not reached their original ambition, either, I guess usually for lack of funding. They have earned some bitterness. Still, they've made lots of beautiful, interesting things and they really led the entire movement to treat games as art so, hopefully, they're "done" in the way that that blog post from 2010 was an "end."
posted by byanyothername at 5:24 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is basically a reality-check to the Steam Stats post a few days ago
posted by hellojed at 5:32 PM on June 21, 2015


Aw. And here I just bought Sunset. Haven't played it yet, but the idea sounds great. Well, far bigger studios than theirs have folded up, too... seems like a rough industry.
posted by zompist at 5:32 PM on June 21, 2015


Huh, I *hated* Gone Home. I thought the story was so obvious that I felt no need to keep playing and uncovering it. The setting kept feeling like there would be traditional game-play obstacles or conflicts, which never materialized, and ultimately, it felt like someone just replaced all the actual play/exploration elements with the fetch-and-carry repetition of a daily quest in WoW.

On contrast, The Path so clearly had no purpose nor end point that it was honestly immersive and endless. Sunset (I've not played it all the way through, yet) appears to have a better ability than the Path in allowing your playing to change the outcomes while you just experience the setting. At least up front, you knew there was no traditional pay off with the Path (sure, grandma's house changes) whereas Gone Home promised something it did not come close to delivering.

I think Lil Inferno is the best "tell me a moving story" while nominally having me play an actual game I've ever experienced.
posted by crush-onastick at 5:33 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Huh, I *hated* Gone Home. I thought the story was so obvious that I felt no need to keep playing and uncovering it. The setting kept feeling like there would be traditional game-play obstacles or conflicts, which never materialized, and ultimately, it felt like someone just replaced all the actual play/exploration elements with the fetch-and-carry repetition of a daily quest in WoW.

Yeah, I'd certainly agree that The Path is a *much* more powerful & cool experience than Gone Home, and that Gone Home was pretty darn predictable (except for the Dad story! That was great!).

I think, for me, it's that The Path obviously deserved so much more of my attention and patience -and, really, in a single setting- than I felt like I could give it at a time. Gone Home, in contrast, basically felt like a nice, disposable mystery novel. Easy beats, easy house exploration, etc. Meditative & simple & entertaining, as opposed to profound & disturbing.

I do feel a bit sad admitting that my tastes run more towards the crass and the light in games, but that's how it is. I long ago made my peace with the fact that I enjoy games where I shoot lots of things more than games that are artistic and beautiful.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:03 PM on June 21, 2015


Lil Inferno was pretty darn good, also. Definitely worth the price of admission.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:12 PM on June 21, 2015


Lil Inferno had me burning spiders alive at some point and I decided I was done after that.
posted by curious nu at 6:26 PM on June 21, 2015


I like to buy games like Gone Home and Sunset because I enjoy playing them but also to give my support to indie developers who are trying different narratives. That being said, I am very much Part of the Problem because if it's not a Bioware RPG or an MMO expansion I just won't pay more than $10 for a game anymore. I know it's part of why indies close shop now and that is a damn shame, but I have soooo many games I that I've already bought and never played.
posted by jess at 7:18 PM on June 21, 2015


I have known Auriea online since 2000, as she was the one who introduced me to LiveJournal. I had a steamy love affair with her webdesign and storytelling, and really wanted to use the internet for personal expression myself at the time, so when she chose to use LiveJournal rather than going the Blogger route, I figured she might be on to something...

I feel kind of bad that I wasn't able to be of more help, but realistically, I think the odds were heavily stacked against them from the beginning... and yet, they managed to make many more games over a much longer time than many, many "professional" game designers.

They had a huge influence on bringing art to webdesign... and I think it's fair to say that TaleofTales has had a huge influence on bringing art to game design. The fact is, whether you're talking about art, music, or pretty much whatever, most of the real groundbreakers don't make a lot of money off of what they do... but that, in part, has a lot to do with the fact that they didn't do their work for the money in the first place.

The fact they are no longer doing games is unfortunate, but it also kind of excites me as to what they might do next.
posted by markkraft at 7:34 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


I made art videogames for several years. Not full-time and not as a money-making endeavour. Still, I spent hundreds of hours making weird artsy web games. One of my projects received arts council funding and another won a fairly high-profile game design contest. I stopped making games not long ago, partly because they simply took too much time to make, and partly because it was really difficult to get people to take them seriously as artworks.

I was also quite discouraged when someone DDoS'd my website and sent me a Twitter message saying "your game sucks." This happened around the same time as the gamergate stuff, and made me realize that gamers were not who I wanted to make art for.

So I don't make games anymore. I make other interactive things, like books and installation art and twitterbots. Darius Kazemi's Fuck Videogames expresses pretty well my thoughts on the matter.
posted by oulipian at 8:02 PM on June 21, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm having thoughts I can't quite articulate yet about games that are the equivalent of a literary novel. If you figure an Assassin's Creed game is equivalent to a Dan Brown novel -- rooted in fact but huge liberties for the sake of tension and pacing, and not too challenging intellectually -- then it stands to reason that a game like Sunset is equivalent to the literary novels that people want to have it known that they've read, but maybe don't want to actually read.

And something-something the crossover of people who genuinely want to read a deep, many-threaded and metaphor-laden literary novel with people who want to play a game is maybe not enormous just yet? Because games aren't a place that is known as the venue for interesting art and intellectual stimulation, so people who are looking for those things specifically maybe don't think to search for games to fill that need. So art games as such aren't a booming commercial marketplace. There just haven't been enough of them for potential audience who don't make art games their own selves to even know it exists.

This may change, because the cultural space that games occupy is shifting rapidly. But then again, most people can't make a living writing literary novels, either. Maybe the art game will always be a labor of love and craft, not commerce.
posted by Andrhia at 8:08 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


My hope is that this isn't necessarily the end of them making interactive art pieces that could theoretically be considered video games, but rather the end of them trying to appeal to their concept of a mass-market "gamer" audience. I'm sure the two of them will be fine no matter what they do, but especially with video games in the bizarre state it's in now—simultaneously broadening its scope to include games like Sunset, Gone Home and Thirty Flights of Loving, but also harbouring a traditionalist faction that wants to snuff out these games at all costs—it's always unfortunate to hear the chorus of voices in the gaming sphere dim a little.

They mention a few of the steps they took to try and broaden Sunset's appeal. I'm not a marketer at all, so maybe Sunset really is a tough game to market (I've seen other people mention, say, Jim Sterling's YouTube coverage and turn away because it didn't feel like a very involving game). But aside from a random mention in a NeoGAF thread that didn't explain anything about the game itself, the first time I heard of Sunset was the Tale of Tales post about how they were quitting. And I'm not the most hipster indie gamer out there, but I like to think I have at least some idea of the smaller games that get released on Steam. Sunset, for whatever reason, failed to make an impact. I can totally understand Tale of Tales not really looking into it, as this kind of financial failure can be exhausting, but I do wonder if maybe the PR firm they hired didn't do the best job.

One more thing: many of Tale of Tales' games are still discounted as part of the current Steam sale, which ends at 1pm Eastern tomorrow. Or, if you prefer, you can buy their games through itch.io, which apparently nets them a greater percentage of sale revenue (though their titles are no longer discounted there).
posted by chrominance at 9:00 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


I backed Sunset on Kickstarter. I really need to get around to actually playing it.

But instead when I sit down to play video games I just end up, like, unlocking half of everything in Sonic All-Star Racing Transformed.
posted by egypturnash at 9:07 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Does anyone know what this bit is about?
We worked hard on presenting a gentler Tale of Tales to the public. Which basically meant that Michaël was forbidden to talk in public and Auriea often just smiled at the camera, parroting words whispered in her ears by communication coaches. Didn’t make a difference.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:18 PM on June 21, 2015


Going To Maine: "Oh, Tale of Tales. I love the idea of you, but never really enjoyed your execution."

I read the Steam user reviews for Sunset, and while most people liked it, I found the negative reviews quite telling. The highly rated negative reviews tended to say things along the lines of "I really wanted to like this game, and the originality of the design was great ... but [control problems / glitches / pacing issues / too expensive and too short / etc.]" I reckon their price point was a major problem, and it's still $AU10 while on sale). Papers Please is certainly not going to be longer than Sunset, but it was cheaper. And while I wasn't completely sold on Gone Home (first game in ages to give me motion sickness!), they priced it in a way that didn't make me feel like you weren't getting your money's worth.

But these days, when I have hundreds of hours invested in Kerbal Space Program and I'm measuring my playtime cost for what I consider Good Replayable Fun Games on the level of cents per hour, $2 or $3 an hour for a game with moderate reviews and 73 Metacritic just isn't a risk I'll take.
posted by barnacles at 9:20 PM on June 21, 2015


Also, this positive user review on Steam is a nice one for describing the day-to-day mechanics of the gameplay, and also engiggled me at the end.
posted by barnacles at 9:21 PM on June 21, 2015


But instead when I sit down to play video games I just end up, like, unlocking half of everything in Sonic All-Star Racing Transformed.

An interesting thing I heard about Netflix is that back when you could queue up movies, apparently what would happen is that people would fill their queues with 'aspirational' movies-- movies they wanted to have watched, rather than movies they actually wanted to watch. I think ToT games tend to fall into an analogous category of aspirational games that people admire and want to be able to say they have played, but which for whatever reason don't actually motivate people to play them. Perhaps it is that aspirational nature itself that's offputting to people-- they look at Gone Home or Dear Esther and are drawn in by mysteries before the more serious themes hit, whereas in Sunset the Serious Themes are front and center right there in the description text on the steam store page. And that overtness makes it easy to admire Sunset from a distance but hard to approach. Which is unfortunate because it sounds like it's actually an interesting game to play.
posted by Pyry at 9:38 PM on June 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh man, these are the guys that made The Endless Forest! I lost track of that weird little playground so many years ago. I have no idea how I didn't make the connection to their more recent titles by this point. Craziness.
posted by erratic meatsack at 1:12 AM on June 22, 2015


I'm having thoughts I can't quite articulate yet about games that are the equivalent of a literary novel. If you figure an Assassin's Creed game is equivalent to a Dan Brown novel -- rooted in fact but huge liberties for the sake of tension and pacing, and not too challenging intellectually -- then it stands to reason that a game like Sunset is equivalent to the literary novels that people want to have it known that they've read, but maybe don't want to actually read.

This is a good point. Lots of people play CoD or Bejeweled or Farmville to blow off steam and have some visually enjoyable 'mindless' fun. While the intellectuals and cultural critics may claim that these indie highbrow games are 'better', in some sense, than the more popular games, this is probably a more-hipster-than-thou pose than an objective truth.

(That said, if you like the literary-novel-type games, more power to you. Everyone should play what brings him/her pleasure - that's what games are for!)
posted by theorique at 2:40 AM on June 22, 2015


An interesting thing I heard about Netflix is that back when you could queue up movies

... Can't you still queue up movies? I have a queue?
posted by Justinian at 3:29 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


But these days, when I have hundreds of hours invested in Kerbal Space Program and I'm measuring my playtime cost for what I consider Good Replayable Fun Games on the level of cents per hour, $2 or $3 an hour for a game with moderate reviews and 73 Metacritic just isn't a risk I'll take.

I've got to agree with this. When I can sink 2000 hours into Civ IV/V or, hell, 200 hours into Witcher 3 it's hard to justify taking a $20 risk on a game with mediocre-at-best reviews which will last a couple hours maybe.
posted by Justinian at 3:31 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't know, I pay $4.80 for my coffee and I've drunk that in ten minutes. Maybe 15 if it was super hot.

I agree there's a point of diminishing returns, and I'm unlikely to spend $20 on an hour-long game (even if it's slightly cheaper than drinking coffee continuously for that long). But it's pretty easy to spend $10 or less on a game, even if it turns out not to be that great or with limited replayability. (Or sufficiently frustrating that I look up the walkthrough and then feel like I've, well, cheated.) This is why I just spent probably too much money on the summer Steam sale - thanks so much, all of you who pointed it out - and as a result have a whole slew of games to further diminish my insufficient sleep. I even picked up Sunset!

They'll also cut into my Alpha Centauri: Alien Crossfire playing time. Now there's a game I'm still playing 15 years later... it just hits that sweet spot.
posted by Athanassiel at 6:25 AM on June 22, 2015


I want to be sympathetic, but the game really doesn't sound good. You wander around someone's apartment, doing minor cleaning tasks? The only agency for the player is either doing them in a warm way, or a cold way? I can't imagine how someone could make this fun. And the reviews make it sound like they really didn't, and relied on atmosphere to carry the game. Which is a tough sell in 2015 when the indie market is huge and packed with games that combine good atmosphere and gameplay.

You just can't leave the core gameplay mechanic as an afterthought and expect to end up with something people actually want to play.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:18 AM on June 22, 2015


I guess the cost really is the issue for a lot of people, but a movie is only two hours and when you add in popcorn or a beer, it's easily 20 bucks.

I think the discussion of literary fiction vs a popular fiction is zeroing in on something important here--not just the idea of audience (and the audience for these games being smaller than the game-buying, game-playing generally) but also of purpose. There's an almost rigid concept of "play" at work in Tale of Tales games--the sort of "play" that art teachers refer to or child development experts. But it's a different definition of play than is at work in your standard first person shooter or Mario kart. The idea of the games is to ignore the language of video games, maybe, and use the format for a different language of games?

I just remember bringing Tetris home from college and my mother would play it, but she played it wrong--totally wrong. Her purpose was to make things with the negative space or the colors, rather than keep the wall from reaching the top. Children do this with board games all the time.

I sometimes find a frustration with video games because the language is very set. No matter how engaging the setting or fast-paced the action, there is a sameness to all videogames. Like, you know the slightly differently colored part of the wall is the secret passage way. Or you know you have to defeat the boss on this level to get to the next part.

Tale of Tales, and Sunset in particular, really are good at laying that aside. Player input changes the outcome, but not in a way we're used to--like moving you to the next boss or leveling your gear or even solving this puzzle. I agree that they are all too short, though, to really let that sort of approach shine. It's not like a sandbox or a sim where ultimately nothing happens or there's no win condition, but it's not like a game where you can fail the objective.

Another game I've played recently, Homesick was incredibly gorgeous, with a very clever puzzle in the middle that ended sort of abruptly after that very clever puzzle and I felt disappointed by it because you got the big reveal (the middle puzzle) and the game just . . . ended. If it had more exploratory content or less of a "Here's the ANSWER! The End" drop off, I would keep re-playing it. I don't know how expensive it would have been to add that content (probably prohibitive) but the conceit was perfect for a Tale of Tales sort of manipulation of outcome without making it impossible to advance.
posted by crush-onastick at 7:25 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]


I can't imagine how someone could make this fun

These types of games aren't necessarily trying to be 'fun', anymore than Papers, Please was trying to be fun. Here's a group of small indies discussing the value of fun, explicitly talking about previous games by Tale of Tales.
“In experiential games, we're not necessarily optimizing for fun,” noted Ian Dallas. "The Unfinished Swan is about provoking wonder and curiosity... All factors coalesce to provoke a feel.” [...]

Pinchbeck asked how designers should respond to “the pressure within traditional game design to make everything fun.” No other media, he opined, feels the pressure to be entertaining all the time.
For instance: you can have profound, moving movies or books that aren't 'fun' or 'entertaining'. God knows you couldn't call Requiem for a Dream 'fun'.

For those who like the idea of Tale of Tales' but have issue with their execution, may I recommend Kentucky Route Zero as my platonic ideal of the moody art game? 3 of 5 chapters are currently out, and are released at a glacial pace which keeps quality high. If you want an idea of what kind of moody, here's some cinematic references for KR0. The big choices of one episode relate to how a character performs a love/breakup/longing song and has no 'plot' significance. The result is incredibly compelling.

tl;dr I bought Sunset, on sale, after hearing this news. I try to set aside a small budget every month for buying weird indie games, in addition to supporting indie games writing on Patreon.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 7:38 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]


For those who like the idea of Tale of Tales' but have issue with their execution, may I recommend Kentucky Route Zero as my platonic ideal of the moody art game? 3 of 5 chapters are currently out, and are released at a glacial pace which keeps quality high. If you want an idea of what kind of moody, here's some cinematic references for KR0. The big choices of one episode relate to how a character performs a love/breakup/longing song and has no 'plot' significance. The result is incredibly compelling.

Man, Kentucky Route Zero is stone cold gorgeous, though I'll never meditate my way through it. I'd actually back The Path (as I have before), which is also gorgeous, emotive, and gives you a pretty instant set of shocks. (And The Dream Machine is a great, gorgeous puzzle game for adults. A little unsubtle, but there's plenty of game there for those who need to feel like they're "achieving" something.)

You just can't leave the core gameplay mechanic as an afterthought and expect to end up with something people actually want to play.

Yeah, this would be the too-arty issue. Part of the reason that Papers, Please works is that at some level getting the busywork minigame right is satisfying. The problem -for me- is that games that are no fun are, uh, no fun. But as filbbertigibbet and crush-onastick suggest, leaving the mechanic so minimal wasn't likely an afterthought - it was the point.

We worked hard on presenting a gentler Tale of Tales to the public. Which basically meant that Michaël was forbidden to talk in public and Auriea often just smiled at the camera, parroting words whispered in her ears by communication coaches. Didn’t make a difference.

Joakim Ziegler, I have some memories of Sameyn et al. making some spicy statements in the past, along the lines of hating all video games or how what they were making aren't video games. (I'd agree, but for better or for worse it seems like "video games" is the term that we've got for interactive computer stuff.) It's also problematic when your work is getting reviewed on video game sites. I'd have to do some digging to uncover that stuff though, and it's not really worth it. (FWIW, my whole reading of their goodbye statement -especially that part- sounded very snide in my head, as will any artist who is self-confident, certain, and unwilling to compromise.)
posted by Going To Maine at 8:57 AM on June 22, 2015


The tradeoff between "fun" and other potentially rewarding emotions has a powerful influence on the size of the potential audience, and thus on the addressable market size. We see this in other media as well - Jurassic World earned several hundred million dollars (and counting), while a critically-acclaimed and challenging art film might earn 0.1% of that, and also be considered successful in its niche.
posted by theorique at 9:06 AM on June 22, 2015


This makes me incredibly sad. Metafilter first made me aware of ToT's work with The Endless Forest, and from there I was hooked. Their work was not the cliche of "Videogames as Art," rather it was Art posing as videogames.

Here are posts about a couple of their other works:
The Path
The Graveyard

The Path is absolutely incredible. I'm also very fond of Bientôt l'été, even though I could never fully use the online feature.

I backed their Kickstarter for Sunset without hesitation, although I naively thought the funds raised there fully covered the development/distribution costs.
posted by Dr-Baa at 9:37 AM on June 22, 2015


A friend has reminded about an example of a deliberately not fun game mechanic from a bit ago: Vesper 5 is a game in which you can only make one move per day. He finished it &, I think, liked it. Too slow for me, but a cool idea.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:13 AM on June 22, 2015


Oh man, how could I have forgotten Luxuria Superbia.
posted by Dr-Baa at 6:16 PM on June 22, 2015


I just finished the game... it's surprisingly meaty, about 7 hours. Unfortunately, since the Steam sale is over, it's back up to $20.

I'm still thinking about it, but I definitely think it's worth it. Few games try to do something like this, so I'm inclined to forgive some awkwardness.

It probably could have been a novel or a film... but I think it works as a game. The interactivity is just enough to make you, if not a creator of the story, complicit in it. You make a number of choices along the way-- not just the big binary of how you treat Ortega, but how much to explore and how much attention to pay. I don't think a conventional narrative would be the same.

So, I'm sad that ToT is closing. I'd like to see more things like this. (I heard about it from Rock Paper Shotgun, which does a good job of shining a light on more offbeat stuff.)
posted by zompist at 4:15 AM on June 23, 2015


Is that SUNSET game actually interesting to play though?
I watched a gameplay vid on youtube and it looks ... pretty, but ultimately very very dull.
- "open boxes" great "poof" furniture appears.
- look out window.
- wander around open more boxes.
- is that all there is?
posted by mary8nne at 7:55 AM on June 23, 2015


Here is a sympathetic critic pointing out that ToT's games are all technically compromised.

With a book, the basic interaction model is something that your users learn at home when they're tiny, and have reinforced daily for their whole schooling. In games, you are often giving them something new -- you need to meet them half way on mechanics and interaction if you want them to stick around for the message. (Games like QWOP are very much the exception I think.)
posted by grobstein at 9:08 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


That article was really interesting, grobstein.

FWIW here's my full reaction to the game. Still think it was worth my $10, and I love the idea enough to forgive it a good deal of awkwardness.
posted by zompist at 10:12 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


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