Espionnage Elysée
June 23, 2015 9:19 PM   Subscribe

François Hollande calls emergency meeting after WikiLeaks claims US spied on three French presidents.

"The top secret documents derive from directly targeted NSA surveillance of the communications of French Presidents Francois Hollande (2012–present), Nicolas Sarkozy (2007–2012), and Jacques Chirac (1995–2007), as well as French cabinet ministers and the French Ambassador to the United States. The documents also contain the "selectors" from the target list, detailing the cell phone numbers of numerous officials in the Elysee up to and including the direct cell phone of the President.

Prominent within the top secret cache of documents are intelligence summaries of conversations between French government officials concerning some of the most pressing issues facing France and the international community, including the global financial crisis, the Greek debt crisis, the leadership and future of the European Union, the relationship between the Hollande administration and the German government of Angela Merkel, French efforts to determine the make-up of the executive staff of the United Nations, French involvement in the conflict in Palestine and a dispute between the French and US governments over US spying on France."

You can view the documents at Wikileaks.
posted by standardasparagus (59 comments total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
 
Quelle surprise.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:34 PM on June 23, 2015 [13 favorites]


I don't see the big deal, historically speaking. Given the opportunity, the US has been listening in since the early 1900s.

"Even before World War I, the United States had been regularly deciphering coded messages sent by foreign diplomats. On the basis of decoded diplomatic messages, for example, the United States and Great Britain knew what arms limitations the Japanese would accept in the peace talks following the war, and negotiators bargained accordingly."

In fact, spying on close allies goes back far longer... and generally helps to establish the truts necessary to remain close allies. Trust, but verify, as they say.
posted by markkraft at 9:38 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Wikileaks also leaked the Saudi Cables recently, which didn't get an FPP.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:39 PM on June 23, 2015 [12 favorites]


I assume that the rulers of the world, being practical men and women, have to know that the US basically spies on their every word.

What must be galling is the massive loss of face when everyone else knows that it true. They have to take strong action or be perceived as weak victims.

(I love that little cartoon on the Wikileaks page. What's funny is that even though there's a glaring grammatical mistake in the text in the cartoon (subject-verb agreement), it feels extremely Gallic...)

I was however disappointed they redacted part of the phone numbers from the French officials, even though it was the right thing to do.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:39 PM on June 23, 2015


"[T]he big deal," markkraft, is that the US got caught.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:39 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm not particularly surprised and would be even more surprised if the French were genuinely surprised. I mean, would we be tapping the Germans and not the French, with whom we have historically had a much rockier relationship (post-1945)?

It would be nice to see some sort of pan-European opposition to the NSA emerge out of these revelations.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:40 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh, and if you like this sort of thing, Wikileaks does it amazingly cheaply, but it isn't for free. Please donate here even if it's just $10. (In fact, we haven't sent them money in a couple of months, time to click that button again...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:42 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Everybody spies on everybody else. Thus has it always been. This is something of a "I'm shocked, shocked!" moment, I think.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:42 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


So, this just happened to Merkel some time ago... have US-German relations suffered any because of that (beyond the superficial)? Or has any legislative change (with teeth) happened in Germany as a result?
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:46 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


IMHO, the really interesting thing here isn't whether US is spying on France - I somehow presumed it was - but the details on how France is going about its business. This brief from May 2012, for instance, seems quite pertinent given Greece's new troubles this week:
On 18 May, Hollande directed Prime Minister (PM) Jean-Marc Ayrault to set up a meeting at the Office of the President (the Elysee) for the following week. Hollande, Ayrault, and "appropriate ministers" would attend, and special emphasis would be given to consequences for the French economy in general and for French banks in particular. Hollande stressed that the meeting would be secret. (COMMENT: The French president seems worried that if word were to get out that Paris is seriously considering the possibility of a Greek exit, it would deepen the crisis.)

In addition, secret meetings are to be held in Paris between French officlans and members of the German Social Democratic Party (SPD). Hollande assured the PM that hosting the meeting at the Elysee was "doable," although Ayrault warned the president to keep the event a secret so as to avoid diplomatic problems. (COMMENT: By "diplomatic problems," Ayrault is referring to what could happen if German Chancellor Angela Merkel finds out that Hollande is going behind her back to meet with the German opposition.)
(para spacing and italicization mine)

As with the original trove, but it's not just the act of spying/ meeting people that's newsworthy, but new facts about the targets themselves, and US' perspectives on them that are so compelling here. In short, lovin' it.
posted by the cydonian at 9:47 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


What, so after Dilma Rousseff, the French thought "Ha ha, too bad for the Brazilians! Sucks to be them!"

And then skipped the obvious next thought?
posted by ctmf at 9:47 PM on June 23, 2015


""[T]he big deal," markkraft, is that the US got caught."

Given the sheer scope of the earlier revelations, this tidbit should pretty much have been assumed to be true. The French PM is feigning outrage, because this is what the French PM is expected to do by the French people.

It's sure a good thing that the French never do the same though, isn't it?
posted by markkraft at 9:49 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]


And the thing is, we share a lot of intelligence with other countries, sometimes helping them to find terrorists and spies in their midst.

When we do, you can bet they ask themselves, "How the hell did they find out about this?" The answer is obvious, of course.
posted by markkraft at 9:51 PM on June 23, 2015


Unfortunately, we Europeans also love to spy on each other whenever the NSA asks for a little favor. That makes the pan-European opposition meetings a little awkward, I imagine.
posted by Ashenmote at 9:52 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


And the thing is, we share a lot of intelligence with other countries, sometimes helping them to find terrorists and spies in their midst.

When we do, you can bet they ask themselves, "How the hell did they find out about this?" The answer is obvious, of course.


Maybe that happens, sometimes. The espionage detailed here is pretty obviously not pro-bono or even quid-pro-quo counter-terrorism, though.
posted by clockzero at 9:59 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wow.

"...and generally helps to establish the truts necessary to remain close allies."

No, this spying does the opposite of that. At least when the ally finds out you've been doing it.
posted by Kevin Street at 10:00 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Now which European countries are spying on the US? I imagine that would make quite a bit more of a stir.
posted by dilaudid at 10:02 PM on June 23, 2015



Now which European countries are spying on the US?


All of them.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 10:03 PM on June 23, 2015 [19 favorites]


"we Europeans also love to spy on each other whenever the NSA asks for a little favor."

... and even when the NSA doesn't.
posted by markkraft at 10:13 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is the part of Wikileaks that I find kind of disingenuous. Yes, I think the state should respect the privacy of its citizens. Should the state respect the privacy of other states? Eh. Everyone spies on everyone and it's always been thus. Any other reaction is either naive or sanctimonious.
posted by johnnydummkopf at 10:35 PM on June 23, 2015 [9 favorites]


De gaulle!

I will see myself out.
posted by riverlife at 10:43 PM on June 23, 2015 [26 favorites]


This is the part of Wikileaks that I find kind of disingenuous. Yes, I think the state should respect the privacy of its citizens. Should the state respect the privacy of other states? Eh.

IIRC Julian Assange's stated goal is to disrupt the power of the global elite by making it impossible for them to trust each other. Of course, this doesn't mean you have to think that's a good thing.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 10:52 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Any other reaction is either naive or sanctimonious.

No other options, huh.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:10 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Now which European countries are spying on the US?
I suppose we'll find out when one of them is dumb enough to have their own Snowden.
posted by fullerine at 11:24 PM on June 23, 2015


So where did these come from? A mole at the State Department? Or the NSA?
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:29 PM on June 23, 2015


No countries hands are clean when it comes to spying and worse, even among allies. Exhibit A: French intelligence services' brave sinking of the Green Peace's Rainbow Warrior.
posted by haiku warrior at 11:33 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


No, people at the top very much expect to have their privacy and by and large they're very successful. Huge swaths of statecraft are impossible without some secrecy.

Also keep in mind that these leaks are pretty candid, and France takes its self perception of independence very seriously.
posted by pmv at 11:40 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


IIRC Julian Assange's stated goal is to disrupt the power of the global elite by making it impossible for them to trust each other. Of course, this doesn't mean you have to think that's a good thing.

Personally, I don't think it's good or bad. But in light of that goal maybe disingenuous isn't the right word. Misguided is probably better suited. The "global elites", which I don't think is synonymous with heads of state, but perhaps is to Assange, already don't trust each other and that distrust is part of statescraft. These types of leaks aren't speaking truth to power so much as just putting a piece of gum in the gears.
posted by johnnydummkopf at 11:45 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]


IMO trying to listen in on the private conversations of friendly leaders is neither normal or acceptable. What's worse is it's really stupid, given the small likely value and the large potential damage. To me it seems a sure sign of an intelligence "community" which is out of control.
posted by Segundus at 11:56 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]


Un secret de Polichinelle.
posted by nicolin at 12:04 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


If you want to hear about the intelligence community being out of control, this new yorker piece on dianne feinstein and the CIA is unreal.

Definitely doing their own thing.
posted by pmv at 12:11 AM on June 24, 2015 [8 favorites]


Most leaders are 'friendly', but no country has friends, they have alliances. And those alliances can and do change, and to detect those changes one must employ spycraft (or so says the intelligence 'community').

What bothers me about state secrets is when they are only secret from the populations. If all the countries know these things, then who is supposed to actually be in the dark? Us, the people, the non-elite, the non-members of the intelligence 'community'. And fuck that noise. For this reason I support these leaks (and virtually all of the leaks I've seen thusfar).

It's weird how many folks who oppose these (wikileaks/manning/snowden) leaks simultaneously declare that everyone knew this stuff so the leaks aren't important/necessary AND that the world will end if these secrets are released. You can only choose one, not both.
posted by el io at 12:16 AM on June 24, 2015 [17 favorites]


So where did these come from? A mole at the State Department? Or the NSA?

I'm tempted to think it's the Russians dumping part of their stash, sowing discord in a very public way between the US and a key NATO vassal state. Like the Nuland telephone disclosures.
posted by Auden at 12:23 AM on June 24, 2015


The Russians are to worried about thier soccer stadiums future.

This so meh.
posted by clavdivs at 12:47 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


the way things are going, with Russian state assets being seized (or frozen) in Belgium and Austria (re:Yukos), the extension on Monday of European sanctions until January 2016, the pre-positioning of heavy armor depots in Eastern Europe (theatrical, but still), I think the 2018 World Cup revocation is the next chip to fall.
posted by Auden at 12:54 AM on June 24, 2015


I have just listened to a piece on French public radio. The journalist pretty much sums it up accurately : It would have been much cheaper for American taxpayers if their government had let their French embassy just buy Le Canard Enchainé to learn most things about French presidents, what they say, do, or think (it's on page 2 of the paper, each week). And also : we're still proud that another nation in the world still cares about it.
posted by nicolin at 1:19 AM on June 24, 2015 [8 favorites]


nicolin: That's pretty funny.

I think the only country that will be earnestly outraged is the one that learns that the US doesn't give a shit about them, and is making no attempt to listen in on their calls. They will be really hurt (whoever they may be).
posted by el io at 1:25 AM on June 24, 2015


Interview I heard on the (midnight for me, 8am for them) BBC Newsday program was that the official stance would of course be offense and posturing, but that, these were the exact words, "how much of that is confected is another matter".
posted by hippybear at 2:10 AM on June 24, 2015


Meanwhile, there is a small country where government officials are running around in a panic at the revelation that the US isn't spying on them. "Are we not global players too? Are we so unimportant?"

A secret note of protest is drafted to be sent to the American embassy, as soon as the guy manning it gets back from his day job...
posted by happyroach at 2:17 AM on June 24, 2015


Not surprising that our leaders think so little of violating our privacy if they've become resigned to the idea that they themselves are never free of surveillance.
posted by straight at 2:24 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'd like to know who FR VIP AIRCRAFT REL is. Airbus? Not that we'd spy for Boeing or anything.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:28 AM on June 24, 2015


These types of leaks aren't speaking truth to power so much as just putting a piece of gum in the gears.

I think that's the point. Enough leaks encourage the little voice in the back of your head that says "but what if this gets wikileaked in five years" and keeps you honest. In previous generations it would have been "but what if the press get their hands on this", but the press is pretty-well subsumed now. Reinventing the fourth estate is a noble goal, at least.

I don't think it'll work like that, though... more likely reacting to a wikileak will become part of the theatre of government - as in this case. I'm shocked, shocked to find that spying is going on in here.
posted by Leon at 2:52 AM on June 24, 2015 [5 favorites]


Now which European countries are spying on the US?

The UK, which is then funnelling the information thus obtained back to the NSA. And the US is paying the UK to do this in order to circumvent domestic spying regulations.
posted by Thing at 3:34 AM on June 24, 2015 [7 favorites]


Re: big surprise, everybody spies, etc: it's very, very different to know somebody is spying on you and being able to pretend you don't, and for it to be public knowledge that you know. It's like the difference between knowing your spouse cheats on you and having it published on the front page of your local newspaper.
posted by signal at 4:29 AM on June 24, 2015


I am shocked, shocked to find that spying is going on in here!
posted by caddis at 6:20 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


The French (and others) are fine with turning a blind eye to US surveillance - so long as it stays within the US government.

This is a complete failure of the US to safeguard allied secrets, and is an enormous deal. Hollande cannot afford to ignore or accept it anymore.

Part of the problem is that every goddamn thing the Goverment does is supposed to stay secret forever, which leads not to a monolith of secrets, but a giant colander as people in a free society can't take that sort of thing seriously, which leads to poor data hygiene and lax security, which leads to international incidents and embarrassment.

The government needs to decide what it wants to keep classified, and what needs to be classified - for way too long they've conflated the two, and it's been kicking their ass for the past five years.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:27 AM on June 24, 2015 [6 favorites]


It is crazy and very horrible for France. What the France can now doing for that problem ? Nothing ? very strange
posted by bil80 at 7:02 AM on June 24, 2015


Everyone spies on everyone, including themselves. There's a great episode of Yes Prime Minister, "A Victory For Democracy" (easily viewable online) where the UK PM relies on Israeli intelligence of UK/US military affairs to short-circuit Foreign Office machinations. As everyone knows, Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister are mildly-disguised documentaries.

Well worth watching, as it includes trouble in Yemen, Russian meddling, and Trident cancellation. And the exchange...

"I gather we're going to vote against Israel in the UN tonight. Why?"
"They bombed the PLO"
"But the PLO bombed Israel"
"The Israelis dropped more bombs than the PLO"
"The PLO started it!"
"No they didn't!"

thirty years on, some things never change. Spying on each other, most certainly.
posted by Devonian at 7:19 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's weird how many folks who oppose these (wikileaks/manning/snowden) leaks simultaneously declare that everyone knew this stuff so the leaks aren't important/necessary AND that the world will end if these secrets are released. You can only choose one, not both.
el io

Of course you can choose both; it's a child's understanding of the world that leads people to think otherwise.

For anything to get done everyone has to act as if this kind of espionage isn't happening and no one would ever do it and it's terrible if it's done. This is the necessary public stance for the continuation of friendly diplomatic relations, trade, etc. But for anything to get done everyone also has to do this kind of espionage to know what other actors are doing and gain an edge.

So it's simultaneously true that everyone knows this espionage is happening and that it would be harmful if secrets were released, because the release would puncture the public facade of friendship and order that allows countries to work with each other. They're not mutually exclusive.

This revelation is a good example: as others have pointed out, France has a long history of its own share of espionage on allies, but now that this instance of US espionage has punctured the public facade of friendliness, it forces the leadership of France to take a stand that is hypocritical but necessary. France can't publicly let stand what it privately must know is happening.

Really, this is just a larger scale version of how people operate. You have personal relationships with friends, coworkers, relatives, etc which requires everyone to maintain certain fronts but also often with the knowledge that things are privately happening, or opinions or privately held, that run counter to what the everyone in the group professes to each other or to outsiders.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:45 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


You missed the best chance we've had for the J'ACCUSE tag!
posted by eriko at 8:56 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's weird how many folks who oppose these (wikileaks/manning/snowden) leaks simultaneously declare that everyone knew this stuff so the leaks aren't important/necessary AND that the world will end if these secrets are released. You can only choose one, not both.

There's nothing contradictory about saying everyone knows the US has spies in Russia and China but it would be a disaster to reveal their names and the content of the information they've collected.
posted by straight at 9:32 AM on June 24, 2015


The French people I met actually felt a kind of special affection for the US; they feel deeply that the US revolution inspired their own revolution, and it really seemed that they cared about political ideas more than most educated Americans. A random person thought that, as someone learning the French language, I'd appreciate some simpler reading material, and I got a small soft-cover book which explained the background of modern French politics to teenagers.

France gave us a giant statue, which is now among the most famous symbols of the US and of political freedom: the Statue of Liberty. It was a long time ago, but French people will bring it up, affectionately.

I'm just saying, this will probably hurt their feelings. This may not be a big surprise to a lot of people, even to everyday Parisians, but I think this will likely really hurt.
posted by amtho at 12:08 PM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]


There is a lot of difference between the statement "all countries spy on each other sometimes" and "one country apparently may have had and may still have the ability to intercept any cell phone communication in another country across a period of several years." (though the documents aren't clear on the methods used)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:41 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


But we can go back to a 2013 Guardian article to get a hint of the capabilities here:
Le Monde said more than 70m French phone calls had been recorded in one 30-day period late last year. Techniques included the automatic recording of conversations from certain numbers, and sweeping up text messages based on keywords. Le Monde warned that the interceptions were likely to have targeted not just those with suspected terrorist links but also people in business and politics.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:47 PM on June 24, 2015


This is potentially quite damaging in the long run. The normal course in things like this is for a note of protest, and possibly something symbolic like calling your ambassador home "for consultation" or declaring some of their embassy staff personæ non gratæ. After those measures the point is taken to have been made, and things can proceed as before.

France's position vis-à-vis the USA means that those tension-relieving measures are impractical or would take on an undue significance. Nobody imagines that France would voluntarily break off relations with the USA, so the symbolic acts of temporarily removing an ambassador or reducing the size of their embassy are too obviously charades. Without any way to pretend that the USA has been chastised, the tensions will continue to build up. It won't have any immediate practical effect, but it may make things more difficult for US diplomacy in the years ahead.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:12 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]


Everyone spies on everyone, you say?
posted by newdaddy at 4:24 PM on June 24, 2015


Category:Executed spies

Pshh, execution? Come on guys, you are taking this too seriously. Everybody spies. Stop being so dramatic about it.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:09 PM on June 24, 2015


Obama just straight up denied the US is listening in on the French president.

That's credible /sarcasm
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:37 AM on June 26, 2015


Obama's statement is very carefully phrased in the present tense:
The President reiterated that we have abided by the commitment we made to our French counterparts in late 2013 that we are not targeting and will not target the communications of the French President.
And indeed, the latest intercept quoted is from 2012. Make of that what you will.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:55 AM on June 27, 2015


« Older The (profane) language of birds   |   Alltha Smoll Theengs / Troo Kair Trooth Breengs Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments