Hongcouver
July 7, 2015 5:15 PM Subscribe
With Vancouver's average detached home price rising 28% to $1.12M (CAD), what the heck is going on? Canadaland's Jesse Brown interviews South China Morning Post columnist Ian Young, author of Hongcouver about wealth migration, racism, and immigration schemes.
Canadaland went from hobby status to full-blown crowd-sourced media startup back in October of 2014 with a successful Patreon fundraising campaign.
Canadaland went from hobby status to full-blown crowd-sourced media startup back in October of 2014 with a successful Patreon fundraising campaign.
The Hot Asian Money Theory is indeed argle-bargle, for the most part.
Many dislike his demagogy ways, but, as always in these discussions, I point to some recent posts from Garth Turner (who's been, I think, big-picture right and short-term-predictions wrong about this stuff for years). One about the numbers, and a couple more about the Chinese money stuff.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:41 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Many dislike his demagogy ways, but, as always in these discussions, I point to some recent posts from Garth Turner (who's been, I think, big-picture right and short-term-predictions wrong about this stuff for years). One about the numbers, and a couple more about the Chinese money stuff.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:41 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Uh, I'm not sure what argle-blargle is, but there are a couple points in favour of the Asian Money theory:
1 - there is indeed a lot of wealth migration going on from Hong Kong to Vancouver. Young discusses this in the interview.
2 - A small amount of extra money can push average prices up as long as it keeps trickling in. Now, I'm not sure it's provable if this has any more or less impact than crazy-low mortgage rates, but I think it is a factor to some degree. It's not a yellow-peril issue, just one of a slight bias causing a larger impact.
All that said, there are indeed plenty of reasons for Vancouver's market to be crazy, most of which boil down to the greater fool theory.
posted by GuyZero at 5:51 PM on July 7, 2015
1 - there is indeed a lot of wealth migration going on from Hong Kong to Vancouver. Young discusses this in the interview.
2 - A small amount of extra money can push average prices up as long as it keeps trickling in. Now, I'm not sure it's provable if this has any more or less impact than crazy-low mortgage rates, but I think it is a factor to some degree. It's not a yellow-peril issue, just one of a slight bias causing a larger impact.
All that said, there are indeed plenty of reasons for Vancouver's market to be crazy, most of which boil down to the greater fool theory.
posted by GuyZero at 5:51 PM on July 7, 2015
At least to me, "why is so much of Vancouver's land reserved for detached housing?" is a much more interesting question than "why are detached houses expensive in a very nice city?".
About 2/3 of Vancouver's land is zoned for detached houses (and a lot of the rest is zoned for uses other than multifamily housing). Reducing demand from wealthy immigrants might bring prices down somewhat, but the underlying problem is that it's straight-up illegal to build apartments in most of the city, especially the wealthy neighbourhoods where displacement isn't a concern. The suburbs are even worse.
posted by ripley_ at 5:53 PM on July 7, 2015 [16 favorites]
About 2/3 of Vancouver's land is zoned for detached houses (and a lot of the rest is zoned for uses other than multifamily housing). Reducing demand from wealthy immigrants might bring prices down somewhat, but the underlying problem is that it's straight-up illegal to build apartments in most of the city, especially the wealthy neighbourhoods where displacement isn't a concern. The suburbs are even worse.
posted by ripley_ at 5:53 PM on July 7, 2015 [16 favorites]
There is no evidence of a yellow peril except as overt racism, or so Garth tells me.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:56 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by blue_beetle at 5:56 PM on July 7, 2015
i remember early 90s conversations with suburban montreal south asian families (my extended family) about "chinese" buying up b.c.
1) i didnt expect india to show as #2 in those charts
2) vancouver is a terribly impossible city to live in, and im in brooklyn ffs. i tried to move in 2008 (thanks asus/atos) but failed...ridiculously expensive, car needed for a commute and constant traffic, and few jobs that paid.
vancouver is also --
1) the first place ive seen people smoke crack on the street in a long time
2) the most homeless people i've seen amassed since 80s new york
3) the darkest alleys in north america.
4) the smelliest and most disgusting IT environment i will ever see (EA game tester room)
and surrounded by natural beauty that you cannot possibly top anywhere in temperate north america...
posted by brainimplant at 6:03 PM on July 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
1) i didnt expect india to show as #2 in those charts
2) vancouver is a terribly impossible city to live in, and im in brooklyn ffs. i tried to move in 2008 (thanks asus/atos) but failed...ridiculously expensive, car needed for a commute and constant traffic, and few jobs that paid.
vancouver is also --
1) the first place ive seen people smoke crack on the street in a long time
2) the most homeless people i've seen amassed since 80s new york
3) the darkest alleys in north america.
4) the smelliest and most disgusting IT environment i will ever see (EA game tester room)
and surrounded by natural beauty that you cannot possibly top anywhere in temperate north america...
posted by brainimplant at 6:03 PM on July 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
the underlying problem is that it's straight-up illegal to build apartments in most of the city, especially the wealthy neighbourhoods where displacement isn't a concern. The suburbs are even worse.
This seems at odds with blue_beetles first link: "...Indeed, fully 80 per cent of new construction activity in the Vancouver CMA is typically devoted to multi-family housing. "
posted by MikeMc at 6:04 PM on July 7, 2015
This seems at odds with blue_beetles first link: "...Indeed, fully 80 per cent of new construction activity in the Vancouver CMA is typically devoted to multi-family housing. "
posted by MikeMc at 6:04 PM on July 7, 2015
There's no contradiction there - that means that most of the construction activity is happening in a small part of the city, and in the rest, the zoning ensures that nothing more can be built.
posted by parudox at 6:24 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by parudox at 6:24 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
This seems at odds with blue_beetles first link: "...Indeed, fully 80 per cent of new construction activity in the Vancouver CMA is typically devoted to multi-family housing."
Not necessarily. 80% of all new construction can be multi-family housing inside the one-third of the city where that kind of construction is actually possible. The implication would be that in the two-thirds zoned for freestanding houses, there's practically no construction going on. This is not a complete picture, obviously, but this Georgia Straight article (named after the strait separating the greater Vancouver region from Vancouver Island, in case you're wondering) says the number of single-family homes has actually decreased by eight percent between 2001 and 2011. This Globe and Mail piece does discuss Vancouver homeowners considering splitting up their single-family lots and redeveloping to increase density on a per-site basis, but ad hoc intensification is never going to be the whole solution or even necessarily a significant portion of it. Most of the development is going to happen in the areas where apartment and condo buildings go up.
posted by chrominance at 6:25 PM on July 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Not necessarily. 80% of all new construction can be multi-family housing inside the one-third of the city where that kind of construction is actually possible. The implication would be that in the two-thirds zoned for freestanding houses, there's practically no construction going on. This is not a complete picture, obviously, but this Georgia Straight article (named after the strait separating the greater Vancouver region from Vancouver Island, in case you're wondering) says the number of single-family homes has actually decreased by eight percent between 2001 and 2011. This Globe and Mail piece does discuss Vancouver homeowners considering splitting up their single-family lots and redeveloping to increase density on a per-site basis, but ad hoc intensification is never going to be the whole solution or even necessarily a significant portion of it. Most of the development is going to happen in the areas where apartment and condo buildings go up.
posted by chrominance at 6:25 PM on July 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've been listening to Canadaland for a while now. For me, it's half insightful, and half (as one of his guests - the lady he talks to about Albertan things - put it) "Jesse Brown, lazy hipster." The Hongcouver episode was more on the lazy hipster side - it's not really his thing. I much prefer it when he does media criticism - and now that Canadaland Commons (a more political version with different lazy hipster hosts) is out I hope he focuses more on media.
(The episode that really shines brightest is his interview with Kate Beaton - well worth the listen for them impersonating Canadian History Minutes and talking about the oil sands - with a nod to Kate's comic strip about same, Ducks.)
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 6:34 PM on July 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
(The episode that really shines brightest is his interview with Kate Beaton - well worth the listen for them impersonating Canadian History Minutes and talking about the oil sands - with a nod to Kate's comic strip about same, Ducks.)
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 6:34 PM on July 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
says the number of single-family homes has actually decreased by eight percent between 2001 and 2011
That's one thing that struck me odd, if you can't build multi-family housing in areas zoned single-family residential (apparently the bulk of the city) how is it the stock of single-family detached homes is decreasing, unless speculators are doing tear-downs and sitting on the vacant lots or something of the sort.
posted by MikeMc at 6:35 PM on July 7, 2015
That's one thing that struck me odd, if you can't build multi-family housing in areas zoned single-family residential (apparently the bulk of the city) how is it the stock of single-family detached homes is decreasing, unless speculators are doing tear-downs and sitting on the vacant lots or something of the sort.
posted by MikeMc at 6:35 PM on July 7, 2015
I was talking with someone about Vancouver home prices recently. I was like, just grab a map. It's a city that's penned in, unlike very many major North American cities.
The greater Vancouver area is peninsulas/islands in a river delta. Mountains block northward expansion. To the south, an international border. West is water. East? It's 600+ miles to the next truly major city, Calgary.
The only option is to build up, but they weren't building lots of towers -- the population of Metro Vancouver was kinda flat between the 70s and 2000s -- they were sprawling.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:37 PM on July 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
The greater Vancouver area is peninsulas/islands in a river delta. Mountains block northward expansion. To the south, an international border. West is water. East? It's 600+ miles to the next truly major city, Calgary.
The only option is to build up, but they weren't building lots of towers -- the population of Metro Vancouver was kinda flat between the 70s and 2000s -- they were sprawling.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:37 PM on July 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
The "Vancouver's housing prices are so damn high because of Yellow/Asian money" is indeed racist claptrap. I believe offshore investment accounts for about 5% of Vancouver housing sales. So why are Vancouver housing prices so high?
1) Limited geography - "Vancouver" is squeezed between the Fraser River and Burrard Inlet
2) Increasing population
3) A era of low interest rates and volatility in the stock market has made housing the only feasible way to hedge against inflation.
My wife is Asian, and she does encounter "mild" racism from time to time. I'm so sick of entitled Vancouverites blaming Asians for what is so obviously the law of supply and demand.
posted by Nevin at 6:43 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
1) Limited geography - "Vancouver" is squeezed between the Fraser River and Burrard Inlet
2) Increasing population
3) A era of low interest rates and volatility in the stock market has made housing the only feasible way to hedge against inflation.
My wife is Asian, and she does encounter "mild" racism from time to time. I'm so sick of entitled Vancouverites blaming Asians for what is so obviously the law of supply and demand.
posted by Nevin at 6:43 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
When I last visited Vancouver, roughly ten years ago, it felt like the skyline consisted of almost nothing but high rise apartment/condo buildings. They seemed to be EVERYWHERE and so were signs of new construction. I don't know anything about real estate there but I was amazed.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 7:00 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by LastOfHisKind at 7:00 PM on July 7, 2015
I always feel like the 5% offshore ownership figure isn't accurate, but it's misleading by not including a lot of Canadian/American speculative or investment money. Any good cite for what that number is? Without backup, I've thought that it wasn't an "offshore" money problem so much as a general "investing in real estate" money problem, the proportion of which is much higher than 5%.
posted by fatbird at 7:01 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by fatbird at 7:01 PM on July 7, 2015
I don't understand why the name Hongcouver is appropriate. Maybe the previous decade, but nowadays if you simply go out and interact with Asians on a regular basis in say Richmond, it's obvious from their spoken accent/language that the moneyed Asians are all from mainland China—maybe Beijing, or Shanghai, but definitely from any one of the major developing Chinese metropolises that most Westerners have never even heard of.
posted by polymodus at 7:01 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 7:01 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
multi-family housing inside the one-third of the city where that kind of construction is actually possible
Unfortunately, much less than a third of Vancouver's land is available for multifamily because that third is shared with office, commercial, industrial, and agricultural zoning. It's tough to pinpoint exactly how much is available for multifamily without reading all 600 Conprehensive Development bylaws, but it's well under 20%.
posted by ripley_ at 7:02 PM on July 7, 2015
Unfortunately, much less than a third of Vancouver's land is available for multifamily because that third is shared with office, commercial, industrial, and agricultural zoning. It's tough to pinpoint exactly how much is available for multifamily without reading all 600 Conprehensive Development bylaws, but it's well under 20%.
posted by ripley_ at 7:02 PM on July 7, 2015
It's not appropriate at all. I suspect it's that 'Chincouver' would sound even more blatantly racist.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:03 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:03 PM on July 7, 2015
No one here uses "Hongcouver" politely, and I've never heard it here, only elsewhere when someone tries to make a risky joke out of bigotry.
posted by fatbird at 7:06 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 7:06 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't understand why the name Hongcouver is appropriate. Maybe the previous decade, but nowadays if you simply go out and interact with Asians on a regular basis in say Richmond, it's obvious from their spoken accent/language that the moneyed Asians are all from mainland China—maybe Beijing, or Shanghai, but definitely from any one of the major developing Chinese metropolises that most Westerners have never even heard of.
I was in Richmond a couple of weeks ago (my eldest son's team made the provincial ball hockey championships, which were held there). Richmond is totally awesome. There are Chinese-language signs everywhere. I can read them because, you know, I actually bothered to study a foreign language. The food is great - authentic Chinese cuisine. The people are great.
I really don't get the defensiveness the dominant culture has about China. Chinese railway labourers literally helped build our country 150 years ago. Without them there would have been no Confederation.
posted by Nevin at 7:08 PM on July 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I was in Richmond a couple of weeks ago (my eldest son's team made the provincial ball hockey championships, which were held there). Richmond is totally awesome. There are Chinese-language signs everywhere. I can read them because, you know, I actually bothered to study a foreign language. The food is great - authentic Chinese cuisine. The people are great.
I really don't get the defensiveness the dominant culture has about China. Chinese railway labourers literally helped build our country 150 years ago. Without them there would have been no Confederation.
posted by Nevin at 7:08 PM on July 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've been listening to Canadaland for a while now. For me, it's half insightful, and half (as one of his guests - the lady he talks to about Albertan things - put it) "Jesse Brown, lazy hipster."
Yeah, I'm back and forth on it. It really relies on the guest, I think, since Jesse Brown seems to content to coast and not do a lot of work. The Kate Beaton show was great, and turned me on to her.
The Dirty Halifax episode was great. Tim Bousquet seems like a really interesting guy. But I thought it really pointed out the lazy hipster thing.
When he made a comment about what his libel insurance gets him (review of stories, advice on how to libel-proof them from a lawyer, etc.), Jesse asks what that costs him a year, and he says somewhere in the neighbourhood of just over two grand, Jesse says something like "Huh. Yeah. I should maybe look into that."
This is someone who represents himself as a crusading investigative journalist shining a light on the bad practices in Canadian media, and he can't be arsed to spend a fraction of the (something like $200K a year) in Patreon funding he gets on something as entry level as libel insurance?
Oh, and...
"CORRECTION: on an earlier version of this podcast Jesse incorrectly referred to former Halifax mayor Peter Kelly as "Tim Kelly". He regrets the dumb error."
I mean, for fuck's sake.
But anyway, as someone who's deliriously in favour of immigration, I found the bit in the Hongcouver episode about the problems with the immigrant investor program interesting (i.e., being used to get and hold a passport of convenience in case the SHTF in China - it's kind of functioned as a passport safety net for very wealthy people). Spoiler: Quebec shenanigans.
I mean, if I were a wealthy business person from China, I would totally use it as a Plan B. Point being, it's not being used in the way it was intended and it means some provinces are reaping the benefits of the immigrant investment while others are bearing the costs in a way that's bass-akwards to how it's supposed to work - more about interprovincial imbalances and a poorly designed program than anything else.
I really don't get the defensiveness the dominant culture has about China.
Ian Young, who's interviewed in that episode, is ethnically Chinese. They do have a discussion about how"from Richmond" functions as this sort of wink-wink way of saying "Oh, they're Chinese" in some of the Canadian coverage they're talking about, rather than just saying, you know, "Chinese."
In any case, it's an interesting discussion.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:17 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I'm back and forth on it. It really relies on the guest, I think, since Jesse Brown seems to content to coast and not do a lot of work. The Kate Beaton show was great, and turned me on to her.
The Dirty Halifax episode was great. Tim Bousquet seems like a really interesting guy. But I thought it really pointed out the lazy hipster thing.
When he made a comment about what his libel insurance gets him (review of stories, advice on how to libel-proof them from a lawyer, etc.), Jesse asks what that costs him a year, and he says somewhere in the neighbourhood of just over two grand, Jesse says something like "Huh. Yeah. I should maybe look into that."
This is someone who represents himself as a crusading investigative journalist shining a light on the bad practices in Canadian media, and he can't be arsed to spend a fraction of the (something like $200K a year) in Patreon funding he gets on something as entry level as libel insurance?
Oh, and...
"CORRECTION: on an earlier version of this podcast Jesse incorrectly referred to former Halifax mayor Peter Kelly as "Tim Kelly". He regrets the dumb error."
I mean, for fuck's sake.
But anyway, as someone who's deliriously in favour of immigration, I found the bit in the Hongcouver episode about the problems with the immigrant investor program interesting (i.e., being used to get and hold a passport of convenience in case the SHTF in China - it's kind of functioned as a passport safety net for very wealthy people). Spoiler: Quebec shenanigans.
I mean, if I were a wealthy business person from China, I would totally use it as a Plan B. Point being, it's not being used in the way it was intended and it means some provinces are reaping the benefits of the immigrant investment while others are bearing the costs in a way that's bass-akwards to how it's supposed to work - more about interprovincial imbalances and a poorly designed program than anything else.
I really don't get the defensiveness the dominant culture has about China.
Ian Young, who's interviewed in that episode, is ethnically Chinese. They do have a discussion about how"from Richmond" functions as this sort of wink-wink way of saying "Oh, they're Chinese" in some of the Canadian coverage they're talking about, rather than just saying, you know, "Chinese."
In any case, it's an interesting discussion.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:17 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
In all your analyses of Vancouver, keep in mind that Toronto detached single-family houses are also north of $1M. There's no mountain-and-sea-locked geography here, nor is there proximity to Asia.
posted by clawsoon at 7:19 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:19 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's one thing that struck me odd, if you can't build multi-family housing in areas zoned single-family residential (apparently the bulk of the city) how is it the stock of single-family detached homes is decreasing, unless speculators are doing tear-downs and sitting on the vacant lots or something of the sort.
I don't know, to be honest, but if I had to guess: Vancouver seems to be slowly coming around to the reality that higher density is going to be needed for future growth and to stave off increasing housing costs. So maybe some low-density residential areas are being rezoned. Another possibility, however unlikely, is homeowners buying up adjacent lots and merging them into their own. No idea if this is a realistic scenario for many Vancouverites, though, or if it would account for such a reduction in housing stock.
posted by chrominance at 7:22 PM on July 7, 2015
I don't know, to be honest, but if I had to guess: Vancouver seems to be slowly coming around to the reality that higher density is going to be needed for future growth and to stave off increasing housing costs. So maybe some low-density residential areas are being rezoned. Another possibility, however unlikely, is homeowners buying up adjacent lots and merging them into their own. No idea if this is a realistic scenario for many Vancouverites, though, or if it would account for such a reduction in housing stock.
posted by chrominance at 7:22 PM on July 7, 2015
There is, however, a thing about proximity to where work is, which has the same effect. People want their homes to be near jobs/schools/parks/etc. So while e.g. Hamilton is cheaper it's not necessarily effective.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:22 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:22 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
It might also be that Vancouver, sprouting new towers weekly, increasingly bears a physical resemblance to Hong Kong.
posted by Flashman at 7:24 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by Flashman at 7:24 PM on July 7, 2015
In all your analyses of Vancouver, keep in mind that Toronto detached single-family houses are also north of $1M. There's no mountain-and-sea-locked geography here, nor is there proximity to Asia.
*strokes imaginary hipster beard*
To be fair, it IS the centre of the universe.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:25 PM on July 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
*strokes imaginary hipster beard*
To be fair, it IS the centre of the universe.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:25 PM on July 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
That's no fair I was scrolling down to make a centre of the universe real estate joke.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 7:46 PM on July 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 7:46 PM on July 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Journalist Jesse Brown is quick to expose the failures of Canadian media. But what about his own?
posted by Nevin at 7:46 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Nevin at 7:46 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
No one here uses "Hongcouver" politely, and I've never heard it here, only elsewhere when someone tries to make a risky joke out of bigotry.
When an ethnic Chinese journalist uses it as the title of his blog, published by a Chinese newspaper I'm assuming it's done both ironically and seriously. While there's always been a Chinese influence on Vancouver, the Hong Kong handover in '97 had a massive and lasting effect on Vancouver. It's true that the subsequent economic growth of mainland China and simple population numbers mean that today it's a general Chinese influence as opposed to just Hong Kong. Still I'm sure you can find a lot of Cantonese speakers in Vancouver without much effort.
posted by GuyZero at 7:47 PM on July 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
When an ethnic Chinese journalist uses it as the title of his blog, published by a Chinese newspaper I'm assuming it's done both ironically and seriously. While there's always been a Chinese influence on Vancouver, the Hong Kong handover in '97 had a massive and lasting effect on Vancouver. It's true that the subsequent economic growth of mainland China and simple population numbers mean that today it's a general Chinese influence as opposed to just Hong Kong. Still I'm sure you can find a lot of Cantonese speakers in Vancouver without much effort.
posted by GuyZero at 7:47 PM on July 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nah, Flashman, it's always been a racist dogwhistle. And it's been around since the early 90s at least.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:47 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:47 PM on July 7, 2015
I really don't get the defensiveness the dominant culture has about China.
Canada is about TWO solitudes! Not three! Or four! TWO.
posted by GuyZero at 7:50 PM on July 7, 2015 [10 favorites]
Canada is about TWO solitudes! Not three! Or four! TWO.
posted by GuyZero at 7:50 PM on July 7, 2015 [10 favorites]
This is someone who represents himself as a crusading investigative journalist shining a light on the bad practices in Canadian media, and he can't be arsed to spend a fraction of the (something like $200K a year) in Patreon funding he gets on something as entry level as libel insurance?
Jiminy Christmas. I guess I'll send my 'starving journalist' donation to the guy from the Halifax episode.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 7:52 PM on July 7, 2015
Jiminy Christmas. I guess I'll send my 'starving journalist' donation to the guy from the Halifax episode.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 7:52 PM on July 7, 2015
it felt like the skyline consisted of almost nothing but high rise apartment/condo buildings. They seemed to be EVERYWHERE
This is true of the downtown peninsula and a few other pockets of towers, but they make up a very small percentage of Vancouver's land area.
"Vancouver is mostly high density buildings" is a strangely common misbelief, probably because the dense parts are much more heavily trafficked than others.
posted by ripley_ at 7:52 PM on July 7, 2015
This is true of the downtown peninsula and a few other pockets of towers, but they make up a very small percentage of Vancouver's land area.
"Vancouver is mostly high density buildings" is a strangely common misbelief, probably because the dense parts are much more heavily trafficked than others.
posted by ripley_ at 7:52 PM on July 7, 2015
"Hongcouver" has been around since the early '90s.
While there's always been a Chinese influence on Vancouver, the Hong Kong handover in '97 had a massive and lasting effect on Vancouver.
Compare the skyline of Hong Kong with that of False Creek. The similarity is striking.
posted by Nevin at 7:56 PM on July 7, 2015
While there's always been a Chinese influence on Vancouver, the Hong Kong handover in '97 had a massive and lasting effect on Vancouver.
Compare the skyline of Hong Kong with that of False Creek. The similarity is striking.
posted by Nevin at 7:56 PM on July 7, 2015
vancouver is also --
1) the first place ive seen people smoke crack on the street in a long time
2) the most homeless people i've seen amassed since 80s new york
3) the darkest alleys in north america.
Yeah, I took a wrong turn onto East Hastings while I was there too.
posted by TrialByMedia at 7:56 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
1) the first place ive seen people smoke crack on the street in a long time
2) the most homeless people i've seen amassed since 80s new york
3) the darkest alleys in north america.
Yeah, I took a wrong turn onto East Hastings while I was there too.
posted by TrialByMedia at 7:56 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's one thing that struck me odd, if you can't build multi-family housing in areas zoned single-family residential (apparently the bulk of the city) how is it the stock of single-family detached homes is decreasing, unless speculators are doing tear-downs and sitting on the vacant lots or something of the sort.
Here in Chicago in the Lincoln Park/Lakeview area population declines have been fueled by restrictive zoning that requires any new construction to have the same or fewer units unless they go through a community planning process to get plan approval (and that always involves the locals screaming bloody murder over parking spaces). So the pattern of new construction has largely been teardowns of three ups (houses with three apartments) to turn them into either newer threeups or far more often into single family homes. In the even more exclusive areas the thing to do lately is to buy multiple lots and build megahomes like these ones. There does seem to be some new tall building condo/rental construction in the pipeline though so maybe some rent pressure might be let out of the area (hahaha who am I kidding?).
The worst part of this, other than the revolution inducing levels of inequality, is that the people who can afford these homes don't even winter in Chicago and also often don't bother to have their sidewalks cleared. So not only are they obscenely rich they're also often lousy neighbors.
posted by srboisvert at 8:39 PM on July 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here in Chicago in the Lincoln Park/Lakeview area population declines have been fueled by restrictive zoning that requires any new construction to have the same or fewer units unless they go through a community planning process to get plan approval (and that always involves the locals screaming bloody murder over parking spaces). So the pattern of new construction has largely been teardowns of three ups (houses with three apartments) to turn them into either newer threeups or far more often into single family homes. In the even more exclusive areas the thing to do lately is to buy multiple lots and build megahomes like these ones. There does seem to be some new tall building condo/rental construction in the pipeline though so maybe some rent pressure might be let out of the area (hahaha who am I kidding?).
The worst part of this, other than the revolution inducing levels of inequality, is that the people who can afford these homes don't even winter in Chicago and also often don't bother to have their sidewalks cleared. So not only are they obscenely rich they're also often lousy neighbors.
posted by srboisvert at 8:39 PM on July 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Compare the skyline of Hong Kong with that of False Creek. The similarity is striking.
This is a recent development, within the last decade or a bit more. I had coffee with an older woman a couple years ago who's lived in Yaletown "since it wasn't safe to walk at night", which is the 80s when it was still warehouses. The south side of False Creek is still under active development--there's a massive empty lot between 1st Ave. and False Creek, from Cambie to the Olympic Village, and then another giant empty lot on the other side of the Olympic Village. On the non-downtown side of False Creek, those condo buildings only go a block in. The other side of Main St. is still not-yet-condemned warehousing or dodgy hotels (go go Ivanhoe!).
When an ethnic Chinese journalist uses it as the title of his blog, published by a Chinese newspaper I'm assuming it's done both ironically and seriously.
I put this in the same category as "I shouldn't expect the same reaction when using the n-word as a black hip hop artist expects".
Another aspect of immigration here is that it used to be very easy to get into the U.S. with permanent residency in Canada because permanent residents were treated as Canadians for immigration purposes, so a lot of Asians would try to get to Vancouver first. Not sure how much that's changed (some I'm sure) since 9/11, but even today, Facebook has a big office in Vancouver that's basically a holding pen for Facebook employees waiting on visas. Microsoft's office here flip flops between having a real project team and being a place to have a desk while the paperwork comes through.
posted by fatbird at 8:43 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a recent development, within the last decade or a bit more. I had coffee with an older woman a couple years ago who's lived in Yaletown "since it wasn't safe to walk at night", which is the 80s when it was still warehouses. The south side of False Creek is still under active development--there's a massive empty lot between 1st Ave. and False Creek, from Cambie to the Olympic Village, and then another giant empty lot on the other side of the Olympic Village. On the non-downtown side of False Creek, those condo buildings only go a block in. The other side of Main St. is still not-yet-condemned warehousing or dodgy hotels (go go Ivanhoe!).
When an ethnic Chinese journalist uses it as the title of his blog, published by a Chinese newspaper I'm assuming it's done both ironically and seriously.
I put this in the same category as "I shouldn't expect the same reaction when using the n-word as a black hip hop artist expects".
Another aspect of immigration here is that it used to be very easy to get into the U.S. with permanent residency in Canada because permanent residents were treated as Canadians for immigration purposes, so a lot of Asians would try to get to Vancouver first. Not sure how much that's changed (some I'm sure) since 9/11, but even today, Facebook has a big office in Vancouver that's basically a holding pen for Facebook employees waiting on visas. Microsoft's office here flip flops between having a real project team and being a place to have a desk while the paperwork comes through.
posted by fatbird at 8:43 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Actually, the deal with Microsoft and so on is that it is now much harder for Microsoft and other tech companies to renew the visas or work permits of their foreign staff. It has been (until the foreign worker debacle last year) much, much easier for tech companies to acquire foreign staff in BC thanks to the Provincial Nominee Program. So once their work permits expired, staff were sent up from the States to the Richmond or Vancouver office. Same time zone, as well.
posted by Nevin at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Nevin at 9:12 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would also like to second the opinion that Richmond is great. Even the mall food courts have varied and authentic cuisine (for food court enthusiasts, I also heartily recommend Crystal Mall in Burnaby).
posted by rustyiron at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rustyiron at 9:27 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Half of its land zoned for single-family use, you say?
Hemmed in by mountains, water, and other physical geography, you say?
Hot job market? Hot real estate market? Median single-family house prices well above region average?
Glad I'm in Seattle.
posted by fireoyster at 9:33 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hemmed in by mountains, water, and other physical geography, you say?
Hot job market? Hot real estate market? Median single-family house prices well above region average?
Glad I'm in Seattle.
posted by fireoyster at 9:33 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Even the mall food courts have varied and authentic cuisine
We went to the Yaohan food court after the ball hockey tournament. It was awesome.
posted by Nevin at 9:42 PM on July 7, 2015
We went to the Yaohan food court after the ball hockey tournament. It was awesome.
posted by Nevin at 9:42 PM on July 7, 2015
Racist dog-whistle bullshit.
Living in Vancouver is expensive for exactly two reasons:
1) It's hemmed in by the US border, the water, and the mountains. Ain't much room for new housing supply (supply)
2) It's fucking gorgeous. The climate is temperate, the houses in established neighbourhoods are beautiful, the coastline is breathtaking, and the transit and cycling infrastructure works. When a place is desirable, people will pay a premium to live there. (demand)
Basic economics. It's a thing.
posted by dry white toast at 10:11 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Living in Vancouver is expensive for exactly two reasons:
1) It's hemmed in by the US border, the water, and the mountains. Ain't much room for new housing supply (supply)
2) It's fucking gorgeous. The climate is temperate, the houses in established neighbourhoods are beautiful, the coastline is breathtaking, and the transit and cycling infrastructure works. When a place is desirable, people will pay a premium to live there. (demand)
Basic economics. It's a thing.
posted by dry white toast at 10:11 PM on July 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
About 2/3 of Vancouver's land is zoned for detached houses (and a lot of the rest is zoned for uses other than multifamily housing).
That's a bit deceptive for if you look at standard Vancouver house construction. New construction in the middle and low-end of the market will typically have 1-2 basement suites and maybe a laneway house. For example there are very few detached homes being built in East Vancouver that are single family dwellings; this example is fairly typical with 1 suite plus laneway house.
Yes, much of the city is zoned to restrict apartment blocks; no, that isn't preventing the city from encouraging higher densities. This is also part of the driver for the seemingly unrealistic prices, the rents coming in from that suite+laneway will be just as inflated as the mortgage payments.
posted by N-stoff at 10:14 PM on July 7, 2015
That's a bit deceptive for if you look at standard Vancouver house construction. New construction in the middle and low-end of the market will typically have 1-2 basement suites and maybe a laneway house. For example there are very few detached homes being built in East Vancouver that are single family dwellings; this example is fairly typical with 1 suite plus laneway house.
Yes, much of the city is zoned to restrict apartment blocks; no, that isn't preventing the city from encouraging higher densities. This is also part of the driver for the seemingly unrealistic prices, the rents coming in from that suite+laneway will be just as inflated as the mortgage payments.
posted by N-stoff at 10:14 PM on July 7, 2015
Ain't much room for new housing supply
Serious question: have you ever looked at the zoning code of any Greater Vancouver municipality?
That is only true for single-family homes and the like. A passing glance at Vancouver's zoning map confirms that there is a ton of room for additional supply.
New construction in the middle and low-end of the market will typically have 1-2 basement suites
Apologies if I was misleading - that's why I was careful to say "detached home" instead of "single-family home". It's just shorter than "detached home with potentially an extra suite or two". Even with a few suites, a house is still significantly less dense than midrise or highrise apartments.
posted by ripley_ at 10:24 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Serious question: have you ever looked at the zoning code of any Greater Vancouver municipality?
That is only true for single-family homes and the like. A passing glance at Vancouver's zoning map confirms that there is a ton of room for additional supply.
New construction in the middle and low-end of the market will typically have 1-2 basement suites
Apologies if I was misleading - that's why I was careful to say "detached home" instead of "single-family home". It's just shorter than "detached home with potentially an extra suite or two". Even with a few suites, a house is still significantly less dense than midrise or highrise apartments.
posted by ripley_ at 10:24 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Geography arguments are lazy. There is always more room to build, up or via more efficient land use.
My thing is this: I make a somewhat decent if not incredible amount of money, and I cannot afford to live in Seattle if I want to own my own home. And yet there are tens of thousands of homes there. Same in Vancouver. What do all of these people do that they all make enough to afford $600K, $1M, $2.5M homes?
posted by maxwelton at 10:45 PM on July 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
My thing is this: I make a somewhat decent if not incredible amount of money, and I cannot afford to live in Seattle if I want to own my own home. And yet there are tens of thousands of homes there. Same in Vancouver. What do all of these people do that they all make enough to afford $600K, $1M, $2.5M homes?
posted by maxwelton at 10:45 PM on July 7, 2015 [7 favorites]
They have good credit and ruinous mortgages.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:50 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:50 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's true that the subsequent economic growth of mainland China and simple population numbers mean that today it's a general Chinese influence as opposed to just Hong Kong.
No, some of you still don't aren't getting the point. The point is to ask, what is the demographic that could possibly driving this housing bubble? And if the answer is going to be "those ultra-rich Asians", then it's absolutely not the Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong immigrants, because there is an additional premise--which by the way happens to be common belief within the Asian community--that the new money = Mandarin-speaking Chinese capitalists from this decade (though I will also grant the subtlety that this was critically enabled in part by Hong Kong business interests such as those of Li Ka Shing, etc.).
So next logical point that follows is that the portmanteau, even if some Asian Canadian coined it, is inaccurate and misrepresents the current reality.
And the final point that follows is: Isn't it symptomatic of something, if people are nevertheless making these mental associations that are not accurate? Hmm?
posted by polymodus at 10:51 PM on July 7, 2015
No, some of you still don't aren't getting the point. The point is to ask, what is the demographic that could possibly driving this housing bubble? And if the answer is going to be "those ultra-rich Asians", then it's absolutely not the Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong immigrants, because there is an additional premise--which by the way happens to be common belief within the Asian community--that the new money = Mandarin-speaking Chinese capitalists from this decade (though I will also grant the subtlety that this was critically enabled in part by Hong Kong business interests such as those of Li Ka Shing, etc.).
So next logical point that follows is that the portmanteau, even if some Asian Canadian coined it, is inaccurate and misrepresents the current reality.
And the final point that follows is: Isn't it symptomatic of something, if people are nevertheless making these mental associations that are not accurate? Hmm?
posted by polymodus at 10:51 PM on July 7, 2015
The only people I know in either Seattle or Vancouver that own their own homes are:
* People who bought their places 10-15 years ago
* Dual income high-wage professionals ( software developers, lawyers, architects )
* Small-condo ( studio, 1BR ) owners
* People with a downpayment from their parents and also in the categories above.
It is crazy. I'm a senior programmer and make a good wage, but I feel the clock ticking ever louder. Even a jump to Seattle with its - for now - higher salary / house price ratio for software engineers is probably only going to be feasible for another 5-6 years max.
God knows what all the people in their 20's working artsy jobs are going to do.
Strangely, Vancouver actually seems to have a way better indie arts / crafts / interesting things scene right now than it ever has in the 10 years I've been here. Baffling.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:55 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
* People who bought their places 10-15 years ago
* Dual income high-wage professionals ( software developers, lawyers, architects )
* Small-condo ( studio, 1BR ) owners
* People with a downpayment from their parents and also in the categories above.
It is crazy. I'm a senior programmer and make a good wage, but I feel the clock ticking ever louder. Even a jump to Seattle with its - for now - higher salary / house price ratio for software engineers is probably only going to be feasible for another 5-6 years max.
God knows what all the people in their 20's working artsy jobs are going to do.
Strangely, Vancouver actually seems to have a way better indie arts / crafts / interesting things scene right now than it ever has in the 10 years I've been here. Baffling.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:55 PM on July 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
the funny thing is that actual Asian cities have figured out how to make it possible for many people to live affordably within a geographically small area
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:15 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:15 PM on July 7, 2015
the funny thing is that actual Asian cities have figured out how to make it possible for many people to live affordably within a geographically small area
I'm not sure if I'd use the term "affordable" for Hong Kong.
posted by GuyZero at 11:16 PM on July 7, 2015
I'm not sure if I'd use the term "affordable" for Hong Kong.
posted by GuyZero at 11:16 PM on July 7, 2015
A somewhat different take on the issue from 2011.
Combine these with the tax cuts Gordon Campbell instituted when the Liberals formed the provincial government in 2001 and you have a real estate boom that has attracted speculative capital from all over the globe. Hence the crazy prices here.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:18 PM on July 7, 2015
Combine these with the tax cuts Gordon Campbell instituted when the Liberals formed the provincial government in 2001 and you have a real estate boom that has attracted speculative capital from all over the globe. Hence the crazy prices here.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:18 PM on July 7, 2015
As to how so many people own homes in expensive cities (like Vancouver, Toronto, San Francisco and Seattle to a lesser extent): The vast majority of homeowners bought their houses years ago.
How do people afford them now? Massive amounts of debt and low interest rates.
posted by GuyZero at 11:18 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
How do people afford them now? Massive amounts of debt and low interest rates.
posted by GuyZero at 11:18 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Asian cities that have figured out how to make it work geographically? Yeah, your Western ass couldn't handle the population density, and unless you're willing to share your 600 square feet with three generations of family, don't pretend that geography doesn't matter.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:20 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:20 PM on July 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is always more room to build, up or via more efficient land use.
Never underestimate the power of incumbent NIMBYs to prevent changes to land zoning. And existing homeowners like high house prices. It's free money to them.
posted by GuyZero at 11:21 PM on July 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
Never underestimate the power of incumbent NIMBYs to prevent changes to land zoning. And existing homeowners like high house prices. It's free money to them.
posted by GuyZero at 11:21 PM on July 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I thought this thread was going to be about Vancouver's (very) recent turn to smoke-blanketed wasteland. Come to think of it, if this keeps up, housing might drop to affordable levels!
posted by mantecol at 11:52 PM on July 7, 2015
posted by mantecol at 11:52 PM on July 7, 2015
Just a couple of observations:
To be clear, it's not 'foreign buyers' that are the problem. It's partly absentee, non-resident buyers wanting to turn housing stock into walled-off, private holding cells. While even the Chinese consul general to the city points out that the near-complete lack of regulation is a problem and contributing factor, the total disinterest from both the federal and provincial levels of government pretty much ensures that Vancouver is going to get more and more stratified, unfair and ripe for urban rot over time.
How is it that larger, more diversified places like London and New York can have sensible adult debates about this, and we cannot?
posted by northtwilight at 1:14 AM on July 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be clear, it's not 'foreign buyers' that are the problem. It's partly absentee, non-resident buyers wanting to turn housing stock into walled-off, private holding cells. While even the Chinese consul general to the city points out that the near-complete lack of regulation is a problem and contributing factor, the total disinterest from both the federal and provincial levels of government pretty much ensures that Vancouver is going to get more and more stratified, unfair and ripe for urban rot over time.
How is it that larger, more diversified places like London and New York can have sensible adult debates about this, and we cannot?
posted by northtwilight at 1:14 AM on July 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Tangentially related: Why you're not leaving London (spoiler: because everywhere is now turning into London).
posted by acb at 4:07 AM on July 8, 2015
posted by acb at 4:07 AM on July 8, 2015
My thing is this: I make a somewhat decent if not incredible amount of money, and I cannot afford to live in Seattle if I want to own my own home. And yet there are tens of thousands of homes there. Same in Vancouver. What do all of these people do that they all make enough to afford $600K, $1M, $2.5M homes?
My sister owns a house that if they sold would be comfortably over a million dollars. The house next to her sold last year for one million and my sisters lot is better.
They afford it because we grew up in the house and my parents worked out a sale that they could afford to do about 10 years ago.
And while they are happy enough to have this sort of asset the whole thing is pretty ludricrous. They think so too. The house and one that sold are nothing special. They're 1960s era Vancouver box house specials where the builders would build several variations of the same boxy house in the neighborhood.
Of their friends the ones that own houses got into them in a similar fashion or happened to have relativly decent jobs 10-15 years ago and bought before it went hyper crazy.
Most other friends that weren't lucky enough to get real estate passed on (or share) from family have moved somewhere else. My sisters closest friends both moved out of Vancouver because of the housing prices.
I've lost track of most of my old friends because I moved away years ago. Of the ones I still keep in contact with the pattern is similar, they either get from/share with relatives, rent and share with several people or move if they want any thing more.
posted by Jalliah at 5:15 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
My sister owns a house that if they sold would be comfortably over a million dollars. The house next to her sold last year for one million and my sisters lot is better.
They afford it because we grew up in the house and my parents worked out a sale that they could afford to do about 10 years ago.
And while they are happy enough to have this sort of asset the whole thing is pretty ludricrous. They think so too. The house and one that sold are nothing special. They're 1960s era Vancouver box house specials where the builders would build several variations of the same boxy house in the neighborhood.
Of their friends the ones that own houses got into them in a similar fashion or happened to have relativly decent jobs 10-15 years ago and bought before it went hyper crazy.
Most other friends that weren't lucky enough to get real estate passed on (or share) from family have moved somewhere else. My sisters closest friends both moved out of Vancouver because of the housing prices.
I've lost track of most of my old friends because I moved away years ago. Of the ones I still keep in contact with the pattern is similar, they either get from/share with relatives, rent and share with several people or move if they want any thing more.
posted by Jalliah at 5:15 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be clear, it's not 'foreign buyers' that are the problem. It's partly absentee, non-resident buyers wanting to turn housing stock into walled-off, private holding cells. While even the Chinese consul general to the city points out that the near-complete lack of regulation is a problem and contributing factor, the total disinterest from both the federal and provincial levels of government pretty much ensures that Vancouver is going to get more and more stratified, unfair and ripe for urban rot over time.
Boom.
The 1 per cent is gonna 1 per cent, regardless of where they come from.
Whenever Canadian municipalities band together and point out the issues around housing to federal and provincial governments, not much gets done, and it's not something municipalities can fix on their own.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:47 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Boom.
The 1 per cent is gonna 1 per cent, regardless of where they come from.
Whenever Canadian municipalities band together and point out the issues around housing to federal and provincial governments, not much gets done, and it's not something municipalities can fix on their own.
"$1.7 billion in annual Federal funding for Canada's 600,000 social housing units has already started to expire, putting one-third or 200,000 social housing units at risk."This report from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities (pdf) is pretty interesting reading on the factors that are pricing people out of the housing market.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:47 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I remembered on my way to work.
When I was still there, around 10-15 years ago, quite a few people that I know owned houses started putting in suites for their young family members to live in. That's what happened with our house. When my sister got pregnant, my brother in law converted the downstairs into a suite for them to live in because finding any thing decent for a small family, that was affordable and in a decent area was really hard. I had returned to University at the time and lived in several places with roommates. I could only attend part time because cost of living and when it became apparent how long it would take me to finish at that rate I moved back to the house and spent several years in the literal garage. My brother in law insulated it and built a temporary floor. It was comfortable but yeah, it was a garage. You could still open the door. So at that time there was three sets of adults(5) plus a baby sharing the space. At the time this sort of living arrangement wasn't common in my area but was becoming more and more common as my generation moved into adulthood and wanted to actually stay in the city.
People just did and do I guess what they have to do.
I don't know how it is now but at the time people building illegal suites was a big deal. Everyone new it was happening more and more but not much was done about it because the demand for space was so high even back then. If I recall correctly there was some sort of grandfathering thing that happened in different municipalities.
I know of at least half a dozen people of mine and my sisters age 30-40 who now live in relatives houses that have been converted in some way to two family living arrangements. Wouldn't surprise me if this has happened a lot in other areas.
posted by Jalliah at 5:54 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
When I was still there, around 10-15 years ago, quite a few people that I know owned houses started putting in suites for their young family members to live in. That's what happened with our house. When my sister got pregnant, my brother in law converted the downstairs into a suite for them to live in because finding any thing decent for a small family, that was affordable and in a decent area was really hard. I had returned to University at the time and lived in several places with roommates. I could only attend part time because cost of living and when it became apparent how long it would take me to finish at that rate I moved back to the house and spent several years in the literal garage. My brother in law insulated it and built a temporary floor. It was comfortable but yeah, it was a garage. You could still open the door. So at that time there was three sets of adults(5) plus a baby sharing the space. At the time this sort of living arrangement wasn't common in my area but was becoming more and more common as my generation moved into adulthood and wanted to actually stay in the city.
People just did and do I guess what they have to do.
I don't know how it is now but at the time people building illegal suites was a big deal. Everyone new it was happening more and more but not much was done about it because the demand for space was so high even back then. If I recall correctly there was some sort of grandfathering thing that happened in different municipalities.
I know of at least half a dozen people of mine and my sisters age 30-40 who now live in relatives houses that have been converted in some way to two family living arrangements. Wouldn't surprise me if this has happened a lot in other areas.
posted by Jalliah at 5:54 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
No one here uses "Hongcouver" politely, and I've never heard it here, only elsewhere when someone tries to make a risky joke out of bigotry.
When an ethnic Chinese journalist uses it as the title of his blog, published by a Chinese newspaper I'm assuming it's done both ironically and seriously
True, but my experience remains that the most common use of the term does not include the "quotes". It's xenophobic at best, and yes, generally doesn't come from someone who actually lives in Vancouver.
I really don't get the defensiveness the dominant culture has about China. Chinese railway labourers literally helped build our country 150 years ago. Without them there would have been no Confederation.
One might also argue that the majority of current Chinese immigrants need to "get" this particular history lesson as well, as many tend to turn their noses up at the early "labourer" arrivals (and their progeny). Or so I've heard.
posted by philip-random at 6:09 AM on July 8, 2015
When an ethnic Chinese journalist uses it as the title of his blog, published by a Chinese newspaper I'm assuming it's done both ironically and seriously
True, but my experience remains that the most common use of the term does not include the "quotes". It's xenophobic at best, and yes, generally doesn't come from someone who actually lives in Vancouver.
I really don't get the defensiveness the dominant culture has about China. Chinese railway labourers literally helped build our country 150 years ago. Without them there would have been no Confederation.
One might also argue that the majority of current Chinese immigrants need to "get" this particular history lesson as well, as many tend to turn their noses up at the early "labourer" arrivals (and their progeny). Or so I've heard.
posted by philip-random at 6:09 AM on July 8, 2015
Canadians: exceedingly polite ... as long as you're not Asian.
posted by ChuckRamone at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ChuckRamone at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder when we're going to get more co-op housing. The demand is there - 8-year waiting lists in the area I'm in - but I guess waiting lists don't motivate people the same way that money does.
posted by clawsoon at 8:20 AM on July 8, 2015
posted by clawsoon at 8:20 AM on July 8, 2015
Seattle may not have single-family zoning for long.
Dual income high-wage professionals ( software developers, lawyers, architects )
One of these things is not like the other.
posted by skyscraper at 8:33 AM on July 8, 2015
Dual income high-wage professionals ( software developers, lawyers, architects )
One of these things is not like the other.
posted by skyscraper at 8:33 AM on July 8, 2015
Canadians: exceedingly polite ... as long as you're not Asian.
QFT. One of the better things to do in Vancouver is take the Forbidden Vancouver tours in Gastown, which are staged as a gritty look at the gritty bits of our history, mostly early 20th century. Depending on the tour, they're very detailed about Chinatown, Asian immigration, race relations, and the various anti-Asian movements, including the 1907 race riots.
posted by fatbird at 8:34 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
QFT. One of the better things to do in Vancouver is take the Forbidden Vancouver tours in Gastown, which are staged as a gritty look at the gritty bits of our history, mostly early 20th century. Depending on the tour, they're very detailed about Chinatown, Asian immigration, race relations, and the various anti-Asian movements, including the 1907 race riots.
posted by fatbird at 8:34 AM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Seattle may not have single-family zoning for long.
That is (unfortunately) probably a very large overstatement by the Seattle Times: The Seattle Times On Single-Family Zoning: Inflammatory and Factually Inaccurate
posted by ripley_ at 8:49 AM on July 8, 2015
That is (unfortunately) probably a very large overstatement by the Seattle Times: The Seattle Times On Single-Family Zoning: Inflammatory and Factually Inaccurate
posted by ripley_ at 8:49 AM on July 8, 2015
Thanks for that, ripley_. Much more nuanced piece than I posted. Apologies for any derailment.
posted by skyscraper at 8:56 AM on July 8, 2015
posted by skyscraper at 8:56 AM on July 8, 2015
Canadians: exceedingly polite ... as long as you're not Asian.
Or First Nations.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:19 AM on July 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Or First Nations.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:19 AM on July 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
The province and fed turned off the taps for financing co-ops and other forms of affordable housing a decade or two ago. Because they're neoliberal jerks.
Simultaneously, financing for private purchase became hilariously cheap: 95% for 30 years at 2-4% was normal for a long time. Because capital wanted new sources of easy growth, and politicians were happy to maintain lax regulation since their constituents -- capital and voters alike -- got to ride the bubble.
Rent in vancouver is still cheap compared to the absurdly inflated purchase prices. They're two different markets, different dynamics: rental properties are generally old and in poor repair, often basement suites and/or too small to raise families.
Unfortunately "cheap" is a relative term since wages are extremely low: lots of people can't transition into the first rung of the bubble ride, so struggle to afford even the relatively-cheap rent. Rental supply is relatively tight, but demand can't support much in the way of price increases. People just leave for other cities in Canada.
posted by ead at 9:20 AM on July 8, 2015
Simultaneously, financing for private purchase became hilariously cheap: 95% for 30 years at 2-4% was normal for a long time. Because capital wanted new sources of easy growth, and politicians were happy to maintain lax regulation since their constituents -- capital and voters alike -- got to ride the bubble.
Rent in vancouver is still cheap compared to the absurdly inflated purchase prices. They're two different markets, different dynamics: rental properties are generally old and in poor repair, often basement suites and/or too small to raise families.
Unfortunately "cheap" is a relative term since wages are extremely low: lots of people can't transition into the first rung of the bubble ride, so struggle to afford even the relatively-cheap rent. Rental supply is relatively tight, but demand can't support much in the way of price increases. People just leave for other cities in Canada.
posted by ead at 9:20 AM on July 8, 2015
(Summary, blame neoliberalism as a whole: 30+ years of running an economy on the fumes of finance for the rich and trickle-down leftovers / service jobs for the poor, and buying off every political and social class that ever gets strong enough to threaten the status quo.)
posted by ead at 9:24 AM on July 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ead at 9:24 AM on July 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
maxwelton: "I make a somewhat decent if not incredible amount of money, and I cannot afford to live in Seattle if I want to own my own home. And yet there are tens of thousands of homes there. Same in Vancouver. What do all of these people do that they all make enough to afford $600K, $1M, $2.5M homes?"
Well, to be honest, not all of us in Seattle live in $600k-and-up houses. The median in Seattle is $535,000 and I own one that's valued at substantially less than that (most recent appraisal was 6 months ago when I tried to refinance). Mine is a standalone house on an under-5,000sqft lot, so that might account for some of it but I still have space to park two cars, have a deck, a garden, and place for a dog to run around. Unlike Vancouver (proper), Seattle still has some areas that aren't wildly popular. I'm in the Central District, an area that—while being literally next door to very-expensive Capitol Hill and under 10 minutes by bus to downtown—hasn't yet rocketed upwards in value because it hasn't shed its "bad reputation."
I feel like, from reading the media coverage down here, that there's a lot of hype to go along with a moderate amount of property growth. Georgetown, Rainier Valley, Columbia City, Lake City, the CD, Delridge...all of these neighborhoods have a lot of houses listed for under $350,000, at least according to my Redfin search.
posted by fireoyster at 3:48 PM on July 8, 2015
Well, to be honest, not all of us in Seattle live in $600k-and-up houses. The median in Seattle is $535,000 and I own one that's valued at substantially less than that (most recent appraisal was 6 months ago when I tried to refinance). Mine is a standalone house on an under-5,000sqft lot, so that might account for some of it but I still have space to park two cars, have a deck, a garden, and place for a dog to run around. Unlike Vancouver (proper), Seattle still has some areas that aren't wildly popular. I'm in the Central District, an area that—while being literally next door to very-expensive Capitol Hill and under 10 minutes by bus to downtown—hasn't yet rocketed upwards in value because it hasn't shed its "bad reputation."
I feel like, from reading the media coverage down here, that there's a lot of hype to go along with a moderate amount of property growth. Georgetown, Rainier Valley, Columbia City, Lake City, the CD, Delridge...all of these neighborhoods have a lot of houses listed for under $350,000, at least according to my Redfin search.
posted by fireoyster at 3:48 PM on July 8, 2015
ChuckRamone Canadians: exceedingly polite ... as long as you're not Asian.
Some BC Property Titles still hold clauses excluding sale to Asians (and Negros and Indians, although the example didn't specify whether they were of the First Nations or South Asian variety. First Nations, I suspect.).
--
In 1994, Vancouver’s tony Oakview Apartments, for instance, was still providing renters with contracts that barred tenants of “negro or oriental blood or extraction.”
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On some pre-war Vancouver restaurant ads, the most prominent feature was the assertion that the kitchen hired exclusively white cooks.
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“Generally, people find it sort of amusing,” said Councillor Jang, a third-generation Chinese-Canadian.
“Anybody who’s found that on their titles … they use it to remind their kids about the bad times when their grandparents came over.”
posted by porpoise at 8:09 PM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Some BC Property Titles still hold clauses excluding sale to Asians (and Negros and Indians, although the example didn't specify whether they were of the First Nations or South Asian variety. First Nations, I suspect.).
--
In 1994, Vancouver’s tony Oakview Apartments, for instance, was still providing renters with contracts that barred tenants of “negro or oriental blood or extraction.”
--
On some pre-war Vancouver restaurant ads, the most prominent feature was the assertion that the kitchen hired exclusively white cooks.
--
“Generally, people find it sort of amusing,” said Councillor Jang, a third-generation Chinese-Canadian.
“Anybody who’s found that on their titles … they use it to remind their kids about the bad times when their grandparents came over.”
posted by porpoise at 8:09 PM on July 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Today in The Globe...
Soaring Vancouver home prices spur anger toward foreign buyers
posted by GuyZero at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2015
Soaring Vancouver home prices spur anger toward foreign buyers
posted by GuyZero at 8:13 AM on July 9, 2015
Canadians: exceedingly polite ... as long as you're not Asian.
Yeah, my wife reports she's sometimes treated pretty frostily in stores.
posted by Nevin at 8:48 AM on July 9, 2015
Yeah, my wife reports she's sometimes treated pretty frostily in stores.
posted by Nevin at 8:48 AM on July 9, 2015
From the CBC: China stock market crisis could lead to more real estate investment in B.C.
I wrote about this a year ago in this MeFi post.
posted by praiseb at 11:22 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wrote about this a year ago in this MeFi post.
posted by praiseb at 11:22 AM on July 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the CBC: China stock market crisis could lead to more real estate investment in B.C.
I had read that the real issue is margin calls and the need to generate liquidity by dumping real estate. I had thought the real problem in China at the moment is that cash has evaporated.
posted by Nevin at 2:56 PM on July 9, 2015
I had read that the real issue is margin calls and the need to generate liquidity by dumping real estate. I had thought the real problem in China at the moment is that cash has evaporated.
posted by Nevin at 2:56 PM on July 9, 2015
Nevin, I've heard that too about market players.
But there are also lots of Chinese business people who generate large incomes and are actively looking for safe havens to park their savings, and they think that Canadian (mostly Vancouver and Toronto) real estate is a safe bet.
Here's an article from late 2013 about the same phenomenon in Palo Alto. “If we have seven offers for a home here, three of them will be Mainland Chinese buyers with all cash,” Kim Heng, the Chinese-born head of Asian outreach at Deleon Realty, guessed."
That article estimated 15 percent of Palo Alto real estate transactions involve Chinese nationals. My Vancouver realtor friends think it's even higher here, perhaps 20-30 percent, but nobody knows how many are immigrants now living in Canada and how many are offshore investors.
But much of that offshore money comes from Canadian citizens who are working and living abroad. Many Chinese have come to Canada, fulfilled the requirements to become citizens, and then gone back to Asia because it's easier for them to make lots of money there. So should this real estate investment from offshore Canadians be treated differently than local buyers?
posted by praiseb at 12:53 AM on July 10, 2015
But there are also lots of Chinese business people who generate large incomes and are actively looking for safe havens to park their savings, and they think that Canadian (mostly Vancouver and Toronto) real estate is a safe bet.
Here's an article from late 2013 about the same phenomenon in Palo Alto. “If we have seven offers for a home here, three of them will be Mainland Chinese buyers with all cash,” Kim Heng, the Chinese-born head of Asian outreach at Deleon Realty, guessed."
That article estimated 15 percent of Palo Alto real estate transactions involve Chinese nationals. My Vancouver realtor friends think it's even higher here, perhaps 20-30 percent, but nobody knows how many are immigrants now living in Canada and how many are offshore investors.
But much of that offshore money comes from Canadian citizens who are working and living abroad. Many Chinese have come to Canada, fulfilled the requirements to become citizens, and then gone back to Asia because it's easier for them to make lots of money there. So should this real estate investment from offshore Canadians be treated differently than local buyers?
posted by praiseb at 12:53 AM on July 10, 2015
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posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:26 PM on July 7, 2015