“Where’s My Cut?”: On Unpaid Emotional Labor
July 15, 2015 2:38 PM Subscribe
Housework is not work. Sex work is not work. Emotional work is not work. Why? Because they don’t take effort? No, because women are supposed to provide them uncompensated, out of the goodness of our hearts.
A woman's work is never done adequately compensated.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:54 PM on July 15, 2015 [68 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:54 PM on July 15, 2015 [68 favorites]
"It’s even more radical to propose that if they want it so fucking much, they can buy it."
A thousand times yes. YES I SAID YES.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [62 favorites]
A thousand times yes. YES I SAID YES.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [62 favorites]
The assertion that emotional work has value, and the fact that it rarely earns financial compensation, is interesting. The implication that this is patently unfair, as emotional work is something that only women perform, kind of confuses me.
Isn't what the author considers "emotional work" simply the basis of every successful, supportive relationship, romantic or otherwise?
posted by enkd at 2:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [27 favorites]
Isn't what the author considers "emotional work" simply the basis of every successful, supportive relationship, romantic or otherwise?
posted by enkd at 2:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [27 favorites]
enkd: sure, but there's value to identifying the culture where this is considered women's work, despite local variations (especially amongst the more educated). I mean I've ended up in relationships with women who lacked "sensitivity and nurturing", but that doesn't contradict the patterns of gendered behaviors and gendered behavior expectations. I would guess that even in educated, liberal communities where it's accepted that both parties to a relationship will put some work in, the baselines for the proper amount of effort are not exactly equal, and aren't seen with unfiltered eyes.
posted by idiopath at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
Isn't what the author considers "emotional work" simply the basis of every successful, supportive relationship, romantic or otherwise?
Yes, and it is routinely devolved to women to perform the bulk of.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [132 favorites]
Yes, and it is routinely devolved to women to perform the bulk of.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [132 favorites]
Isn't what the author considers "emotional work" simply the basis of every successful, supportive relationship, romantic or otherwise?
Nope. I have had to ask several male friends, "What do you think friendship means? You cannot merely text me a picture of your dog after months and silence and then launch instantly into a tirade about how much you hate your job and you're so lonely etc." But those friends assume I'll be into that because I'm a lady and we love to gossip or whatever.
I'm married to a pretty egalitarian man but even so I sometimes find myself saying, "Sweetheart, I cannot rehash this story about work again. Please talk to a friend about this. I cannot listen any more." And I think a lot of that is that he knows I'm so "good at people" and "smart about emotions" that he can't imagine that I wouldn't revel in listening to him recount a play by play of office drama. He also takes for granted that I'll arrange all social events involving other people, maintain familiar relations with our families and be open and supporting to him. But he's not responsible for inviting his mom to Mother's day because that's my job.
Our relationship is a work in progress but most of our conflict revolves around his assumptions that I like doing that stuff, that he could never be as good at it as I am and that I don't find it exhausting because Feminine.
posted by Saminal at 3:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [207 favorites]
Nope. I have had to ask several male friends, "What do you think friendship means? You cannot merely text me a picture of your dog after months and silence and then launch instantly into a tirade about how much you hate your job and you're so lonely etc." But those friends assume I'll be into that because I'm a lady and we love to gossip or whatever.
I'm married to a pretty egalitarian man but even so I sometimes find myself saying, "Sweetheart, I cannot rehash this story about work again. Please talk to a friend about this. I cannot listen any more." And I think a lot of that is that he knows I'm so "good at people" and "smart about emotions" that he can't imagine that I wouldn't revel in listening to him recount a play by play of office drama. He also takes for granted that I'll arrange all social events involving other people, maintain familiar relations with our families and be open and supporting to him. But he's not responsible for inviting his mom to Mother's day because that's my job.
Our relationship is a work in progress but most of our conflict revolves around his assumptions that I like doing that stuff, that he could never be as good at it as I am and that I don't find it exhausting because Feminine.
posted by Saminal at 3:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [207 favorites]
But when I see how desperate he was to have his delusion of entitlement confirmed, when I read that he found “Michelle is influenced by evil spirits” easier to swallow than “Michelle is a human being with preferences and agency,” I find it harder to feel too sorry that someone took him for what he was willing to pay.
A lot of this article made me go, "OH GOD YES," but this in particular struck me. Men would rather believe that there is something wrong with you than believe you do not desire them other than as friends.
posted by Kitteh at 3:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [90 favorites]
A lot of this article made me go, "OH GOD YES," but this in particular struck me. Men would rather believe that there is something wrong with you than believe you do not desire them other than as friends.
posted by Kitteh at 3:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [90 favorites]
Hey there was a thread here just the other day about an outfit that pays for emotional work! The rate is 60 cents an hour.
posted by trunk muffins at 3:11 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by trunk muffins at 3:11 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
Men like to act as if commanding women’s attention is their birthright, their natural due, and they are rarely contradicted. It’s a radical act to refuse them that attention. It’s even more radical to propose that if they want it so fucking much, they can buy it.
Oh dear god, yes. Or, as a vaguely neuro-diverse woman, I would opt for the alternative approach: men (and people in general since women are expected to do this type of work for everyone else as well) can keep their fucking money and just stop acting like it's my raison d'etre to be their goddamn riveted interactive audience 24/7 and let me do a freaking crossword puzzle or read a book or eat my lunch without dancing attendance on their every word.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:20 PM on July 15, 2015 [79 favorites]
Oh dear god, yes. Or, as a vaguely neuro-diverse woman, I would opt for the alternative approach: men (and people in general since women are expected to do this type of work for everyone else as well) can keep their fucking money and just stop acting like it's my raison d'etre to be their goddamn riveted interactive audience 24/7 and let me do a freaking crossword puzzle or read a book or eat my lunch without dancing attendance on their every word.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:20 PM on July 15, 2015 [79 favorites]
I really like the turn things are taking lately, where it seems like internet feminists are calling individual men to task more. I know, I know, #NotAllMen or whatever, but honestly? Every dude I know has the opportunity, on any given day, to make at least one woman's life just a little more equitable, and I'm sick of cutting them slack for not taking that opportunity.
A friend of mine, when the whole "woman on the $10 bill" thing came up, along with the billion inevitable jokes about "haha, don't you mean the $7.75 bill," announced that any man who made this joke had better put his extra $0.25 on the dollar where his mouth was, and donate to an organization that benefits women. Her rationale was that either you're just punching down and you're an asshole, or you're legitimately outraged. But if you're a man and you're outraged, well, you're in the position to contribute to the greater equality that you supposedly value.
I expected outrage and backlash, but in matter of fact, our local abortion fund has profited mightily. :)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:26 PM on July 15, 2015 [144 favorites]
A friend of mine, when the whole "woman on the $10 bill" thing came up, along with the billion inevitable jokes about "haha, don't you mean the $7.75 bill," announced that any man who made this joke had better put his extra $0.25 on the dollar where his mouth was, and donate to an organization that benefits women. Her rationale was that either you're just punching down and you're an asshole, or you're legitimately outraged. But if you're a man and you're outraged, well, you're in the position to contribute to the greater equality that you supposedly value.
I expected outrage and backlash, but in matter of fact, our local abortion fund has profited mightily. :)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:26 PM on July 15, 2015 [144 favorites]
I love this article. Describing emotional labor to the men I have dated is always exhausting. They do not fundamentally understand what the phrase even means. "Emotional labor?" My last boyfriend shrugged when I told him how tired I was, doing so much emotional lifting for other people - both him and many of my friends, often male, who generally treated me like a therapist. "I don't even understand what those words even mean when you put them together." I told him: it is taking care of someone else's emotional needs without having your needs even acknowledged. It is sitting down to lunch and having your friend tell you a long story about themselves, expecting you to interject with suggestions and kind words, for forty minutes before they even ask you how you are doing. It is the expectation that if you want something nice - say, someone to plan a weekend away, or to have pretty flowers around that make you feel special, or for someone to think of you when they are at the grocery store and to pick up dinner for you as well - you should do it your damn self. It's the expectation that you will walk away from an argument feeling low, after apologizing, without getting an apology in return, and that you'll be all smiles when they're ready to engage again after stonewalling you. He just looked at me and laughed; then, he said, "You're a crazy person; that doesn't make sense," and he walked away. Sigh.
Emotional labor is bullshit when it isn't fairly compensated. I might suggest that someone else doing emotional labor for you in return is fair compensation. Unfortunately, I personally have yet to find a partner who is capable of doing that kind of emotional work, and I know I am not alone in this. It's just not part of their upbringing, baby - they're men. They never learned how to do it, and everything has worked out just fine so far without it. They sure as shit aren't going to start doing it now.
Sorry if I sound bitter. I'm just awfully tired. I've been taking care of a lot of other people lately, and haven't had much time to take care of myself. It's wearing me thin. I wish I could pay someone to do some emotional labor for me! And by that, I mean, I could use a nice hot meal and a big bouquet of flowers, just because. Better get my butt to the store. Ain't no one else gonna do it for me.
posted by sockermom at 3:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [356 favorites]
Emotional labor is bullshit when it isn't fairly compensated. I might suggest that someone else doing emotional labor for you in return is fair compensation. Unfortunately, I personally have yet to find a partner who is capable of doing that kind of emotional work, and I know I am not alone in this. It's just not part of their upbringing, baby - they're men. They never learned how to do it, and everything has worked out just fine so far without it. They sure as shit aren't going to start doing it now.
Sorry if I sound bitter. I'm just awfully tired. I've been taking care of a lot of other people lately, and haven't had much time to take care of myself. It's wearing me thin. I wish I could pay someone to do some emotional labor for me! And by that, I mean, I could use a nice hot meal and a big bouquet of flowers, just because. Better get my butt to the store. Ain't no one else gonna do it for me.
posted by sockermom at 3:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [356 favorites]
Keep in mind, race modifies the pay gap. In 2013, white men make $1.00 compared to white women's $0.78, black women's $0.64 and Latina's $0.54 [source].
I was just thinking when I got these numbers, though, how different they would look if the lowest paid workers (Latinas in this case) were $1.00 and everyone else was marked as overpaid. It's a different way of looking at the numbers, and I think it would have a different emotional effect.
posted by Deoridhe at 3:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [63 favorites]
I was just thinking when I got these numbers, though, how different they would look if the lowest paid workers (Latinas in this case) were $1.00 and everyone else was marked as overpaid. It's a different way of looking at the numbers, and I think it would have a different emotional effect.
posted by Deoridhe at 3:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [63 favorites]
I have had a vague grasp of this concept before, but I am loving this explicit discussion of it. I dig the post and this thread.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 3:36 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 3:36 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
Describing emotional labor to the men I have dated is always exhausting. They do not fundamentally understand what the phrase even means.
I have posted this before, but it remains relevant. Judy Brady, from "I Want a Wife":
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [178 favorites]
I have posted this before, but it remains relevant. Judy Brady, from "I Want a Wife":
I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life. When my wife and I are invited out by my friends, I want a wife who will take care of the baby-sitting arrangements. When I meet people at school that I like and want to entertain, I want a wife who will have the house clean, will prepare a special meal, serve it to me and my friends, and not interrupt when I talk about things that interest me and my friends. I want a wife who will have arranged that the children are fed and ready for bed before my guests arrive so that the children do not bother us. I want a wife who takes care of the needs of my guests so that they feel comfortable, who makes sure that they have an ashtray, that they are passed the hors d'oeuvres, that they are offered a second helping of the food, that their wine glasses are replenished when necessary, that their coffee is served to them as they like it. And I want a wife who knows that sometimes I need a night out by myself.Read the whole thing.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [178 favorites]
This is one of those brilliant articles that seems to have reached down into my psyche, plucked out a bunch of thoughts, and organized them more coherently and eloquently than I can manage.
It's interesting thinking about this in my current life as a nursing student. There was a study that came out recently showing that male RNs make more than women across all different settings and specialties, despite women still making up the largest share of the profession. Some of the biggest income disparities, however, were those among cardiac nurses (mentioned here) and nurse anesthetists (mentioned her here). Nurse educators who help patients with diabetes and other chronic diseases, meanwhile, have a somewhat smaller disparity.
My hypothesis here is that women are getting more steeply penalized for going into settings that require more stereotypically "male" traits: lots of physicality, monitoring of fiddly lab values and monitors, less need for human interaction in the case of the anesthetists. Meanwhile, the emotional labor that's required to teach struggling patients day in day out gets devalued across the board, and the devaluation hits women harder because patriarchy. It's oppression all the way down!
Also interesting how physicality gets privileged when it goes along with more male-dominated sub fields of nursing, but written off as grunt work that anyone could do when you're talking about nurse aides. Being a CNA is easily the most physically intense work I've ever done, and it comes with lots of emotional labor on top of, say, turning heavy patients in bed to wipe their asses, but lord knows no one's getting compensated well for any of that. Also, it just so happens that that's a job that falls disproportionately to women of color. Geez, what a coincidence!
posted by ActionPopulated at 3:45 PM on July 15, 2015 [95 favorites]
It's interesting thinking about this in my current life as a nursing student. There was a study that came out recently showing that male RNs make more than women across all different settings and specialties, despite women still making up the largest share of the profession. Some of the biggest income disparities, however, were those among cardiac nurses (mentioned here) and nurse anesthetists (mentioned her here). Nurse educators who help patients with diabetes and other chronic diseases, meanwhile, have a somewhat smaller disparity.
My hypothesis here is that women are getting more steeply penalized for going into settings that require more stereotypically "male" traits: lots of physicality, monitoring of fiddly lab values and monitors, less need for human interaction in the case of the anesthetists. Meanwhile, the emotional labor that's required to teach struggling patients day in day out gets devalued across the board, and the devaluation hits women harder because patriarchy. It's oppression all the way down!
Also interesting how physicality gets privileged when it goes along with more male-dominated sub fields of nursing, but written off as grunt work that anyone could do when you're talking about nurse aides. Being a CNA is easily the most physically intense work I've ever done, and it comes with lots of emotional labor on top of, say, turning heavy patients in bed to wipe their asses, but lord knows no one's getting compensated well for any of that. Also, it just so happens that that's a job that falls disproportionately to women of color. Geez, what a coincidence!
posted by ActionPopulated at 3:45 PM on July 15, 2015 [95 favorites]
I freaking love this article. One of the biggest changes I have undergone since I started stripping is that I feel entitled to demand payment in situations where I feel pressured to validate a man's ego.
For example, take the numerous times I have been walking down the street and a persistent guy wants to have a flirty conversation with me. ("You look great. I bet you always look this great. Hey, can I give you my number? Do you have a boyfriend? Are you sure?")
It takes all the self-control I have not to say, "Congratulations, you picked the ONE GIRL on this street that actually will give you the attention you're looking for. I'm a stripper, dude. For the right price, I'd take my clothes off for your mother, so of course I'll flirt with you! I can make you feel like the most special guy I've walked past ALL DAY. The price is $25 for four minutes, with the money up front."
I wonder how many of these guys would take me up on it. The offer makes perfect sense to me. When I explain this to my coworkers, it makes perfect sense to them. But I don't explain it to people who aren't sex workers, because I worry that they won't understand where I'm coming from.
It's not wrong for you to want attention. Everybody wants to be wanted. But you have to go about it in the right way at the right time (e.g. respectfully paying for the services of strippers at a strip club), and a lot of people don't. They want the attention, but as the article says, "uncompensated, out of the goodness of our hearts."
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 3:58 PM on July 15, 2015 [332 favorites]
For example, take the numerous times I have been walking down the street and a persistent guy wants to have a flirty conversation with me. ("You look great. I bet you always look this great. Hey, can I give you my number? Do you have a boyfriend? Are you sure?")
It takes all the self-control I have not to say, "Congratulations, you picked the ONE GIRL on this street that actually will give you the attention you're looking for. I'm a stripper, dude. For the right price, I'd take my clothes off for your mother, so of course I'll flirt with you! I can make you feel like the most special guy I've walked past ALL DAY. The price is $25 for four minutes, with the money up front."
I wonder how many of these guys would take me up on it. The offer makes perfect sense to me. When I explain this to my coworkers, it makes perfect sense to them. But I don't explain it to people who aren't sex workers, because I worry that they won't understand where I'm coming from.
It's not wrong for you to want attention. Everybody wants to be wanted. But you have to go about it in the right way at the right time (e.g. respectfully paying for the services of strippers at a strip club), and a lot of people don't. They want the attention, but as the article says, "uncompensated, out of the goodness of our hearts."
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 3:58 PM on July 15, 2015 [332 favorites]
Can we talk about the emotional labor of Christmas cards for a minute? I spent years keeping addresses current, buying cards, writing the notes, addressing and stamping the cards, keeping track of who sent a card and who must get one in return--and all I asked was that my husband sign his name. He did for a while, and then just kind of stopped, despite my requests. So I stopped sending them lest the message be "Happy Holidays from the 'Toes, except Mr. T., who can't be fucking bothered to sign this card."
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [155 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [155 favorites]
If there was some way to remove the risk of physical danger, that might actually be a great business idea, Peppermint Snowflake. Guys will already pay for "girlfriend experience" stuff. I wonder if they would pay for the thrill of feeling like a player chatting up a hot girl. Maybe set it up so they can pay to "pick up" girls when their friends are around to impress them.
posted by Sangermaine at 4:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 4:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder if they would pay for the thrill of feeling like a player chatting up a hot girl
Hostess clubs are definitely a thing in Japan, at least. And technically speaking, hiring an escort at an escort service can be for the purpose of an available "hottie on my arm who I didn't have to work to get" for a party or something.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:15 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
Hostess clubs are definitely a thing in Japan, at least. And technically speaking, hiring an escort at an escort service can be for the purpose of an available "hottie on my arm who I didn't have to work to get" for a party or something.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:15 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
The article contains one of the best feminist critiques of the prohibition of sex work I have read. I usually argue more on the basis of basic personal freedom but maybe this would convince people resistant to that line of discourse.
posted by Justinian at 4:27 PM on July 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:27 PM on July 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
Why is it MY job to keep track of my husband's mother's birthday, when that I the sort of thing I am terrible at and he is reasonably good at? Because even my lovely husband unconsciously offloaded a bunch of familial emotional labor on me when we got married. Worse, why does my MIL get mad at ME when he forgets her birthday? Because the whole WORLD expects me to be the birthday rememberer!
Actually, the one that annoys me is Christmas presents, because it's fucking exhausting to think of presents for him, our kids, and all the members of my large extended family. Then I remind him we have to get something for his parents and he looks at me helplessly and says, "I don't have any ideas, can you think of anything?" NO. I HAVE USED UP ALL MY IDEAS AND THEN SOME AND MY BRAIN IS TIRED OF THINKING OF GIFTS.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:30 PM on July 15, 2015 [221 favorites]
Actually, the one that annoys me is Christmas presents, because it's fucking exhausting to think of presents for him, our kids, and all the members of my large extended family. Then I remind him we have to get something for his parents and he looks at me helplessly and says, "I don't have any ideas, can you think of anything?" NO. I HAVE USED UP ALL MY IDEAS AND THEN SOME AND MY BRAIN IS TIRED OF THINKING OF GIFTS.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:30 PM on July 15, 2015 [221 favorites]
I often talk about emotional labor as being the work of caring. And it's not just being caring, it's that thing where someone says "I'll clean if you just tell me what to clean!" because they don't want to do the mental work of figuring it out. Caring about all the moving parts required to feed the occupants at dinnertime, caring about social management. Caring about noticing that something has changed - like, it's not there anymore, or it's on fire, or it's broken.
It's a substantial amount of overhead, having to care about everything. It ought to be a shared burden, but half the planet is socialized to trick other people into doing more of the work.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [266 favorites]
It's a substantial amount of overhead, having to care about everything. It ought to be a shared burden, but half the planet is socialized to trick other people into doing more of the work.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [266 favorites]
I send a canned message of "I'm sorry, but I am unable to craft personal responses to assholes at this time. More information @ [link to a page called "lol nope" that says that they will have to pay me if they want my attention]" to jackasses on Twitter who demand my time and it makes them REALLY MAD. They keep replying, keep getting the canned response, and then threaten to report me to Twitter. It's wonderful. They're especially mad whenever I tweet #GiveMoneyToWomen and link my patreon/tip jar. I guess since they do their harassment for free, I shouldn't want any compensation for writing about its effects.
I've gotten a lot of shit here, too, for refusing to respond to men's anti-feminist JAQing off with painstakingly patient explanations of their attempts to derail a conversation by telling them that doing so would be work that isn't actually worth it to me unless they pay me.
I see a lot of pushback every time anytime a woman does anything to suggest to men that they aren't entitled to her attention. It's a major part of what happened today in the echochamber.js thread; there it is that we are expected to perform the labor of reading all of the vitriol that men hurl at us for daring to be women on the internet and deal with the emotional drain from that and the time it consumes to deal with it, and it is somehow cheating to have a system that never displays those comments to anyone but the person writing them, despite the fact that all we'd be doing otherwise would be taking more of our time to read and then delete them. Sometimes this is couched, as it was there, in the kind of "do this for your safety" thing that helps reinforce tired victim-blaming tropes that attempt to make women responsible for their own abuse; sometimes it's just treated as some kind of unspeakable cruelty to not allow men to shout at us wherever they wish.
This is, of course, exacerbated with people who (unlike me) have more than a dozen regular readers who aren't related to them. People with entire dedicated hate mobs are expected to spend more hours than they have in a day dealing with this abuse "for their own safety".
I'm just talking the aspects of this that expect us to deal with abuse and harassment online without going into the meatspace details of it, so this is really just a tiny portion of the emotional labor women are expected to perform all the time, but it's a good jumping-off point to start pointing it out.
posted by NoraReed at 4:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [119 favorites]
I've gotten a lot of shit here, too, for refusing to respond to men's anti-feminist JAQing off with painstakingly patient explanations of their attempts to derail a conversation by telling them that doing so would be work that isn't actually worth it to me unless they pay me.
I see a lot of pushback every time anytime a woman does anything to suggest to men that they aren't entitled to her attention. It's a major part of what happened today in the echochamber.js thread; there it is that we are expected to perform the labor of reading all of the vitriol that men hurl at us for daring to be women on the internet and deal with the emotional drain from that and the time it consumes to deal with it, and it is somehow cheating to have a system that never displays those comments to anyone but the person writing them, despite the fact that all we'd be doing otherwise would be taking more of our time to read and then delete them. Sometimes this is couched, as it was there, in the kind of "do this for your safety" thing that helps reinforce tired victim-blaming tropes that attempt to make women responsible for their own abuse; sometimes it's just treated as some kind of unspeakable cruelty to not allow men to shout at us wherever they wish.
This is, of course, exacerbated with people who (unlike me) have more than a dozen regular readers who aren't related to them. People with entire dedicated hate mobs are expected to spend more hours than they have in a day dealing with this abuse "for their own safety".
I'm just talking the aspects of this that expect us to deal with abuse and harassment online without going into the meatspace details of it, so this is really just a tiny portion of the emotional labor women are expected to perform all the time, but it's a good jumping-off point to start pointing it out.
posted by NoraReed at 4:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [119 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, this is one of those threads where I am going to officially ask that we table the "but what about men?!" angle, pursuant to several recent MeTas. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [139 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [139 favorites]
I love, love, love thinking about this concept. (Radical feminist with some economics background.)
I see no benefit to pre-limiting this potential market to women entrants -- while it is obvious to anyone who's experienced this that women make up the HUGE MAJORITY of the "emotional laborers" (or whatever you want to call this market), if we monetized it, the market would very quickly make clear that women were the ones doing this work. (Although I wonder if explictly assigning financial value to this work would solve the Everybody Loves Raymond-style argument I hear some men spouting: that women just happen to be better at this work than men are, by some magic of nature.) And when a man performs such emotional labor, he is compensated as well. Or he can barter.
Another consideration - is the rise of services like "life coaching" the beginning of this market? What does it mean that in my sample of one, most of the people signing up for these priced emotional services are also women? (Maybe my sample of one is an anomoly.)
What would happen if we started a group like task rabbit or the like, advertising "a ear to listen to your emotional problems," priced at minimum wage?
This leads back to the question I continue to puzzle over: why aren't stay at home parents paid a wage? For example, why don't parents receive a wage per child that they can either pass on to an outside childcare worker, or keep themselves as a wage for stay at home work? It is such bullshit to me that things like "welfare to work" programs exist for mothers who are constantly working to care for their children, and not being paid for it. If I retired from the work force to care for a child, I would be foregoing a large wage in favor of…what? An esoteric emotional benefit I am supposed to prize.
Why don't stay at home parents unionize? In the US, if stay at home parents formed a union, couldn't they purchase a huge group health insurance policy, saving a huge sum on whatever individual insurance some of them are currently purchasing?
Jumping back to "emotional labor," think of how this would be valued in terms of morality (even more so in past centuries) -- in doing this work, you are being "good" or "virtuous," which supposedly pays its own dividends down the road in the great beyond or the next life. What about today?
To me (and acknowledged in the article) this also strongly connects to the horribly inequitable assumption that people of color are not only required to bear the brunt of discrimination and to fight it, but also to shine a light on it and explain it to often hostile white people. Imagine if Twitter deducted $5 from ever Twitter troll who hurled an insult or a "justify this" at Johnetta Elzie.
posted by sallybrown at 4:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [45 favorites]
I see no benefit to pre-limiting this potential market to women entrants -- while it is obvious to anyone who's experienced this that women make up the HUGE MAJORITY of the "emotional laborers" (or whatever you want to call this market), if we monetized it, the market would very quickly make clear that women were the ones doing this work. (Although I wonder if explictly assigning financial value to this work would solve the Everybody Loves Raymond-style argument I hear some men spouting: that women just happen to be better at this work than men are, by some magic of nature.) And when a man performs such emotional labor, he is compensated as well. Or he can barter.
Another consideration - is the rise of services like "life coaching" the beginning of this market? What does it mean that in my sample of one, most of the people signing up for these priced emotional services are also women? (Maybe my sample of one is an anomoly.)
What would happen if we started a group like task rabbit or the like, advertising "a ear to listen to your emotional problems," priced at minimum wage?
This leads back to the question I continue to puzzle over: why aren't stay at home parents paid a wage? For example, why don't parents receive a wage per child that they can either pass on to an outside childcare worker, or keep themselves as a wage for stay at home work? It is such bullshit to me that things like "welfare to work" programs exist for mothers who are constantly working to care for their children, and not being paid for it. If I retired from the work force to care for a child, I would be foregoing a large wage in favor of…what? An esoteric emotional benefit I am supposed to prize.
Why don't stay at home parents unionize? In the US, if stay at home parents formed a union, couldn't they purchase a huge group health insurance policy, saving a huge sum on whatever individual insurance some of them are currently purchasing?
Jumping back to "emotional labor," think of how this would be valued in terms of morality (even more so in past centuries) -- in doing this work, you are being "good" or "virtuous," which supposedly pays its own dividends down the road in the great beyond or the next life. What about today?
To me (and acknowledged in the article) this also strongly connects to the horribly inequitable assumption that people of color are not only required to bear the brunt of discrimination and to fight it, but also to shine a light on it and explain it to often hostile white people. Imagine if Twitter deducted $5 from ever Twitter troll who hurled an insult or a "justify this" at Johnetta Elzie.
posted by sallybrown at 4:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [45 favorites]
Also, MonkeyToes, in doing the Christmas cards you may be doing *your* emotional work and not your husbands - maybe he doesn't care? I am single and have never sent christmas cards.
Does (this hypothetical husband - I don't think we should restrict this to any particular spouse) not care because for his entire life, he's been used to women relatives keeping family and friend relationships strong through work exactly like this, though? Has he ever fully experienced a world in which women stop doing this kind of work? (Sending Christmas cards, get well cards, birthday presents for family and friends, telephone calls just to check up, etc.)
My father would almost never speak to his brother, whom he loves dearly, if my mother didn't do a huge amount of leg-pulling to keep them in touch and get them in the same room. But would that change if he didn't live in a world in which their wives were expected to build and maintain this connection?
It's impossible to say because this is the world we live in now.
posted by sallybrown at 4:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [55 favorites]
Does (this hypothetical husband - I don't think we should restrict this to any particular spouse) not care because for his entire life, he's been used to women relatives keeping family and friend relationships strong through work exactly like this, though? Has he ever fully experienced a world in which women stop doing this kind of work? (Sending Christmas cards, get well cards, birthday presents for family and friends, telephone calls just to check up, etc.)
My father would almost never speak to his brother, whom he loves dearly, if my mother didn't do a huge amount of leg-pulling to keep them in touch and get them in the same room. But would that change if he didn't live in a world in which their wives were expected to build and maintain this connection?
It's impossible to say because this is the world we live in now.
posted by sallybrown at 4:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [55 favorites]
Worse, why does my MIL get mad at ME when he forgets her birthday? Because the whole WORLD expects me to be the birthday rememberer!
So as a man who gave up even trying to keep up with birthday cards ages ago, this has always struck me as a women's activity (at least in my small sliver of the world). I mean, men I know just don't care. I agree with most of this article FWIW, but on this one item... it's not that it's being delegated by men. They don't even see this as a thing to do. It is kind of bullshit for your MIL to assume that you're going to take care of it, but it's probably because she's internalized that no man is going to ever send her a birthday card.
(I send my mom flowers every year although my wife reminds me weeks ahead of time most years. But nieces and nephews and cousins etc? Forget it.)
posted by GuyZero at 4:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
So as a man who gave up even trying to keep up with birthday cards ages ago, this has always struck me as a women's activity (at least in my small sliver of the world). I mean, men I know just don't care. I agree with most of this article FWIW, but on this one item... it's not that it's being delegated by men. They don't even see this as a thing to do. It is kind of bullshit for your MIL to assume that you're going to take care of it, but it's probably because she's internalized that no man is going to ever send her a birthday card.
(I send my mom flowers every year although my wife reminds me weeks ahead of time most years. But nieces and nephews and cousins etc? Forget it.)
posted by GuyZero at 4:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
I mean, men I know just don't care.
But it's impossible to know whether they would care if they did not live in a world which widely considered this to be "women's work." I don't think this can be a strong counter-argument or dismissed out of hand when there exists a default assumption, baked into society, of "this is not my job."
posted by sallybrown at 4:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [108 favorites]
But it's impossible to know whether they would care if they did not live in a world which widely considered this to be "women's work." I don't think this can be a strong counter-argument or dismissed out of hand when there exists a default assumption, baked into society, of "this is not my job."
posted by sallybrown at 4:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [108 favorites]
This is one of the reasons I love being a therapist. I am really good at emotional labor, and doing it in a setting where I'm respected as a professional and paid for my expertise is such a vastly more rewarding experience than being expected to do it in romantic relationships where it's simultaneously expected and devalued. (I've never run into the resentment-causing lopsided arrangements with friends, male or female; those relationships have always felt balanced to me. It's just romantic partners that I seem to choose poorly.)
On the other hand, therapy work is also often devalued by society as a whole, and payments have been going down as more women than men enter the profession. Woo, patriarchy!
posted by jaguar at 4:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [66 favorites]
On the other hand, therapy work is also often devalued by society as a whole, and payments have been going down as more women than men enter the profession. Woo, patriarchy!
posted by jaguar at 4:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [66 favorites]
They don't even see this as a thing to do.
Where "this" can be sending cards, calls on significant dates, keeping the kitchen floor reasonably clean, keeping a house healthy and comfortable to live in, arranging play dates for children, and on and on.
All of this has been offloaded on women because men don't even see these as necessary, valuable, or pay-worthy things to do.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [116 favorites]
Where "this" can be sending cards, calls on significant dates, keeping the kitchen floor reasonably clean, keeping a house healthy and comfortable to live in, arranging play dates for children, and on and on.
All of this has been offloaded on women because men don't even see these as necessary, valuable, or pay-worthy things to do.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [116 favorites]
But it's impossible to know whether they would care if they did not live in a world which widely considered this to be "women's work." I don't think this can be a strong counter-argument or dismissed out of hand when there exists a default assumption, baked into society, of "this is not my job."
Yeah, it's impossible to know. I agree. But just for the super-specific point of birthday cards, I actually don't understand why women care either. Maybe I'm just old and cranky and maybe other people like birthday cards a lot.
posted by GuyZero at 4:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yeah, it's impossible to know. I agree. But just for the super-specific point of birthday cards, I actually don't understand why women care either. Maybe I'm just old and cranky and maybe other people like birthday cards a lot.
posted by GuyZero at 4:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
I dunno, I get it, I guess. But, do I ask to paid to go check the loud noise my wife hears downstairs? Or if a female friend asks me to help them move a piece furniture
Sure but does 'fix my car, male' sting when you hear it? Because I'm told, "make me a sandwich" does for a lot of people.
So I have to admit when I first read something like this essay (not this exact essay) I thought "well okay, but I'm pretty sure I've spent more time listening to women's problems than the other way around." Which I still do think is true - perhaps not typical I don't know. But here's the thing - among guys it's totally acceptable and expected to say that being treated as an "unpaid therapist" is a hassle. In fact if you admit to spending "too much" time listening to women (versus I dunno, fucking them, or watching TV by yourself) some guys will call you a sucker. I don't think it's nearly as acceptable for women to even acknowledge that they don't always enjoy spending their time like that.
posted by atoxyl at 4:51 PM on July 15, 2015 [45 favorites]
Sure but does 'fix my car, male' sting when you hear it? Because I'm told, "make me a sandwich" does for a lot of people.
So I have to admit when I first read something like this essay (not this exact essay) I thought "well okay, but I'm pretty sure I've spent more time listening to women's problems than the other way around." Which I still do think is true - perhaps not typical I don't know. But here's the thing - among guys it's totally acceptable and expected to say that being treated as an "unpaid therapist" is a hassle. In fact if you admit to spending "too much" time listening to women (versus I dunno, fucking them, or watching TV by yourself) some guys will call you a sucker. I don't think it's nearly as acceptable for women to even acknowledge that they don't always enjoy spending their time like that.
posted by atoxyl at 4:51 PM on July 15, 2015 [45 favorites]
sallybrown, you and I may live in another world.
I personally do not buy into a lot of the silliness that "the world" insists we do.. and yes, part of that is probably upbringing. My mother does not call me on my birthday or send me an email. Neither does my father. My sister, occasionally. We are a happy loving family and have no issues with each other. We. Just. Don't. Care.
I understand that others grow up differently, and a person who doesn't want to do the work but still thinks the work should be done - fuck them, fully agreed.
As to housework - I don't think housework and "emotional work" are at all the same, but as an anecdote from my world, I own my own apartment, rent to a roommate below market rate, and she doesn't clean *shit*. I mop, sweep, load/unload the dishwasher, clear her trash off the kitchen counters daily, clean the shared bathroom, etc, etc, etc and she doesn't lift a finger. We're both in our 30s. I am 100% sure a lot of her behaviour is from her upbringing, but who knows.
Ask anyone about my "work" that I do in the house, and I'm just an idiot and a pushover for continuing to do the work.. but that's not appropriate to say about women in the same situation.
posted by mbatch at 4:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
I personally do not buy into a lot of the silliness that "the world" insists we do.. and yes, part of that is probably upbringing. My mother does not call me on my birthday or send me an email. Neither does my father. My sister, occasionally. We are a happy loving family and have no issues with each other. We. Just. Don't. Care.
I understand that others grow up differently, and a person who doesn't want to do the work but still thinks the work should be done - fuck them, fully agreed.
As to housework - I don't think housework and "emotional work" are at all the same, but as an anecdote from my world, I own my own apartment, rent to a roommate below market rate, and she doesn't clean *shit*. I mop, sweep, load/unload the dishwasher, clear her trash off the kitchen counters daily, clean the shared bathroom, etc, etc, etc and she doesn't lift a finger. We're both in our 30s. I am 100% sure a lot of her behaviour is from her upbringing, but who knows.
Ask anyone about my "work" that I do in the house, and I'm just an idiot and a pushover for continuing to do the work.. but that's not appropriate to say about women in the same situation.
posted by mbatch at 4:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
In fact if you admit to spending "too much" time listening to women (versus I dunno, fucking them, or watching TV by yourself) some guys will call you a sucker. I don't think it's nearly as acceptable for women to even acknowledge that they don't always enjoy spending their time like that.
Such a good point. The whole "friendzone" idea is based on the idea that men shouldn't have to listen to women talking unless they're getting paid in sex.
posted by jaguar at 4:56 PM on July 15, 2015 [205 favorites]
Such a good point. The whole "friendzone" idea is based on the idea that men shouldn't have to listen to women talking unless they're getting paid in sex.
posted by jaguar at 4:56 PM on July 15, 2015 [205 favorites]
Okay, so: think of a universe where birthday conventions are still the same, but women start getting paid for their emotional labor. Bob's mother thus expects Bob to, in some way, acknowledge her birthday. If you ask Bob, he loves his mother dearly, but he doesn't care that much about birthday cards. Bob's wife enters the emotional labor market and sets her price at $10 per each "send your mom a birthday card" reminder and $20 for her to buy and send the card herself, from both her and Bob. The first year, Bob, in line with his belief that he doesn't value birthday cards, decides not to pay. Bob's wife gets to save the time on the card issue and Bob pays what he thinks this labor is worth (nada). If Bob's mom doesn't give a shit either, everything is rosy. But if Bob's mom is sad about not getting an acknowledgment of her birthday and lets Bob know that, won't Bob decide he does indeed value the emotional labor of sending his mom a birthday card?
posted by sallybrown at 4:56 PM on July 15, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 4:56 PM on July 15, 2015 [33 favorites]
One more comment on cards, and I'll leave that super-specific point. I am a woman. I do not give a damn about cards. But because others do, and because "remembering to buy, write, and send cards" has been coded feminine, my husband and various card-recipients assume that I will take care of it. No one expects a card from my husband. Even when the recipients are *his* family friends. The cards aren't the point; it's the assumption about who does that work.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [76 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [76 favorites]
I have been really fortunate in this area, or else my laziness when it comes to assuming obligations has made others give up on me in despair. But the husband has other friends besides me, and is also willing to go to therapy when needed. His family does not expect me to just know what to do for family stuff or keep track of birthdays, because I never have. They just text me to bring a bag of ice and a fruit salad, which I happily will do.
I made a few weak attempts at Christmas cards, realized fewer and fewer people care about/do them anymore, and gave up. I get none, I send none. It's good. Birthday cards are not a huge thing in our family (sometimes yes, sometimes no) so it's more of a personal preference. But again; I am lucky not to have one of those families that are big on Drama and unstated but mandatory obligations of that sort.
BUT. I do know what's being discussed here. I've had male acquaintances frequently corner me to tell me about their (often horrifying and traumatic!) emotional issues at the slightest provocation, then be upset if I suggest a therapist. Usually they're older guys, middle-aged, bitter, and completely unaware of how alarming and discomfiting their traumatic stories and obvious pent-up rage is to everyone around them. I've seen lots of women get worn out by husbands who clearly do need help of some kind but instead prefer to be miserable and make everyone tiptoe around them and follow special rules not to set them off. I've seen it eat away at and destroy marriages. It's about pride, and laziness and entitlement, and it's shit and I want women everywhere to stop putting up with it.
(Younger guys tend to corner me about relationship problems, but will usually stop if they don't like my suggestions or answers).
And housework. Oh, housework. I have had to have Come to Jesus meetings about housework. It's still not as balanced as it should be. But I will not hesitate to take dirty dishes and other things and dump them in the husband office or son's room (somewhere they can't ignore them) and tell them it's their problem now. Which helps some. But there is the overall question of Why Is This Only My Concern, No One Should Be OK Living in Filth Like an Animal, Jesus Christ Take Some Goddman Responsibility For That You Assholes and Pick Up Your Shit Without Being Asked.
posted by emjaybee at 4:58 PM on July 15, 2015 [110 favorites]
I made a few weak attempts at Christmas cards, realized fewer and fewer people care about/do them anymore, and gave up. I get none, I send none. It's good. Birthday cards are not a huge thing in our family (sometimes yes, sometimes no) so it's more of a personal preference. But again; I am lucky not to have one of those families that are big on Drama and unstated but mandatory obligations of that sort.
BUT. I do know what's being discussed here. I've had male acquaintances frequently corner me to tell me about their (often horrifying and traumatic!) emotional issues at the slightest provocation, then be upset if I suggest a therapist. Usually they're older guys, middle-aged, bitter, and completely unaware of how alarming and discomfiting their traumatic stories and obvious pent-up rage is to everyone around them. I've seen lots of women get worn out by husbands who clearly do need help of some kind but instead prefer to be miserable and make everyone tiptoe around them and follow special rules not to set them off. I've seen it eat away at and destroy marriages. It's about pride, and laziness and entitlement, and it's shit and I want women everywhere to stop putting up with it.
(Younger guys tend to corner me about relationship problems, but will usually stop if they don't like my suggestions or answers).
And housework. Oh, housework. I have had to have Come to Jesus meetings about housework. It's still not as balanced as it should be. But I will not hesitate to take dirty dishes and other things and dump them in the husband office or son's room (somewhere they can't ignore them) and tell them it's their problem now. Which helps some. But there is the overall question of Why Is This Only My Concern, No One Should Be OK Living in Filth Like an Animal, Jesus Christ Take Some Goddman Responsibility For That You Assholes and Pick Up Your Shit Without Being Asked.
posted by emjaybee at 4:58 PM on July 15, 2015 [110 favorites]
I mean, men I know just don't care.
In my marriage, I'm the one who doesn't care. My husband reminds me to send my parents cards for their birthdays and Mother's Day and so on. I manage to actually do that about half of the time; he doesn't do it for me, but he cares if it happens and he thinks it's terrible that I don't care. He sends out Christmas cards or they don't happen (I categorically refuse to have anything to do with planning that because it was my "job" in a previous relationship and I hate everything about it). He sends the cards for his own family and keeps track of the dates himself (or he probably has calendar reminders set up, because that's how he does everything). Etc.
So, in the absence of a woman willing to do this work, there do exist men who care.
Maddeningly, I do sometimes still get blamed if he forgets to send out cards, but so far everybody has accepted me saying it's not my job, so at least their assumptions are just passively sexist and not actively trying to force me to fill this role through social pressure.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:59 PM on July 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
In my marriage, I'm the one who doesn't care. My husband reminds me to send my parents cards for their birthdays and Mother's Day and so on. I manage to actually do that about half of the time; he doesn't do it for me, but he cares if it happens and he thinks it's terrible that I don't care. He sends out Christmas cards or they don't happen (I categorically refuse to have anything to do with planning that because it was my "job" in a previous relationship and I hate everything about it). He sends the cards for his own family and keeps track of the dates himself (or he probably has calendar reminders set up, because that's how he does everything). Etc.
So, in the absence of a woman willing to do this work, there do exist men who care.
Maddeningly, I do sometimes still get blamed if he forgets to send out cards, but so far everybody has accepted me saying it's not my job, so at least their assumptions are just passively sexist and not actively trying to force me to fill this role through social pressure.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:59 PM on July 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
I actually don't understand why women care either
We DON'T. We don't fucking care about your mom's birthday or little sally the 14th cousin 37 times removed's fucking piano recital. But we're the ones who have to deal with the emotional and social fallout of no one caring, always. ALWAYS.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [380 favorites]
We DON'T. We don't fucking care about your mom's birthday or little sally the 14th cousin 37 times removed's fucking piano recital. But we're the ones who have to deal with the emotional and social fallout of no one caring, always. ALWAYS.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [380 favorites]
luckily my entire immediate family is dead and i can DO WHAT I WANT which is NOT CARE and no one can stop me
NO ONE
posted by poffin boffin at 5:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [100 favorites]
NO ONE
posted by poffin boffin at 5:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [100 favorites]
For example, why don't parents receive a wage per child that they can either pass on to an outside childcare worker, or keep themselves as a wage for stay at home work?
Receive a wage from whom?
posted by Justinian at 5:02 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
Receive a wage from whom?
posted by Justinian at 5:02 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
THE MAN
posted by notyou at 5:03 PM on July 15, 2015 [40 favorites]
posted by notyou at 5:03 PM on July 15, 2015 [40 favorites]
If Bob's mom doesn't give a shit either, everything is rosy. But if Bob's mom is sad about not getting an acknowledgment of her birthday and lets Bob know that, won't Bob decide he does indeed value the emotional labor of sending his mom a birthday card?
Your analogy is missing a crucial detail - bob's mom isn't telling BOB she's sad about not getting a card, Bob's Mom Is telling Bob's WIFE. No one is telling Bob anything.
Which makes as much sense as if you went to see RETURN OF THE JEDI and the Ewoks pissed you off, and instead of blaming George Lucas you blamed the guy who sweeps up spilled popcorn at night.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [69 favorites]
Your analogy is missing a crucial detail - bob's mom isn't telling BOB she's sad about not getting a card, Bob's Mom Is telling Bob's WIFE. No one is telling Bob anything.
Which makes as much sense as if you went to see RETURN OF THE JEDI and the Ewoks pissed you off, and instead of blaming George Lucas you blamed the guy who sweeps up spilled popcorn at night.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [69 favorites]
the wages should be automatically deducted from the bank accounts from any person of any gender who have ever sneeringly smirked that "it's not like it's a REAL JOB"
posted by poffin boffin at 5:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [95 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [95 favorites]
We DON'T. We don't fucking care about your mom's birthday or little sally the 14th cousin 37 times removed's fucking piano recital. But we're the ones who have to deal with the emotional and social fallout of no one caring, always. ALWAYS.
What poffin boffin said. Repeated daily, over the course of a lifetime.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
What poffin boffin said. Repeated daily, over the course of a lifetime.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
Receive a wage from whom?
If human beings start being paid for emotional labor and related tasks, who values the work of child-rearing? I would say the larger society (in the U.S., the federal government).
Will that ever happen? I doubt in my lifetime. Is it even possible? Not sure.
posted by sallybrown at 5:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
If human beings start being paid for emotional labor and related tasks, who values the work of child-rearing? I would say the larger society (in the U.S., the federal government).
Will that ever happen? I doubt in my lifetime. Is it even possible? Not sure.
posted by sallybrown at 5:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
Your analogy is missing a crucial detail - bob's mom isn't telling BOB she's sad about not getting a card, Bob's Mom Is telling Bob's WIFE. No one is telling Bob anything.
Mom-in-law, I charge $15 for breaking angry news from you to my husband. Would you rather call Bob directly?
posted by sallybrown at 5:06 PM on July 15, 2015 [124 favorites]
Mom-in-law, I charge $15 for breaking angry news from you to my husband. Would you rather call Bob directly?
posted by sallybrown at 5:06 PM on July 15, 2015 [124 favorites]
If human beings start being paid for emotional labor and related tasks, who values the work of child-rearing? I would say the larger society (in the U.S., the federal government).
Relatedly: If Women Counted: A New Feminist Economics
Relatedly: If Women Counted: A New Feminist Economics
This is a revolutionary and powerfully argued feminist analysis of modern economics, revealing how woman's housework, caring of the young, sick and the old is automatically excluded from value in economic theory. An example of this pervasive and powerful process is the United Nation System of National Accounts which is used for wars and determining balance of payments and loan requirements. The author has also written "Women, Politics and Power" and is a formidable force in the politics of New Zealand, serving three terms in Parliament and helping bring down a Prime Minister. She holds a doctorate in political economy and was a visiting Fellow at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.posted by Lexica at 5:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [32 favorites]
But just for the super-specific point of birthday cards, I actually don't understand why women care either.
I don't. So much don't. And I take responsibility for whatever toll that takes on my relationships - it's my very small remaining family mostly, but I have multiple reasons for maintaining a certain distance. But anyway, it's on me, and nobody else, and that's fine.
I also don't manage my husband's relationship with his family, and if they care or blame me...I don't care. It affects me zero.
Those things don't affect me because we don't have children. Emotional labor, and how I knew that situation would shake out, is one of the reasons we don't have children.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [54 favorites]
I don't. So much don't. And I take responsibility for whatever toll that takes on my relationships - it's my very small remaining family mostly, but I have multiple reasons for maintaining a certain distance. But anyway, it's on me, and nobody else, and that's fine.
I also don't manage my husband's relationship with his family, and if they care or blame me...I don't care. It affects me zero.
Those things don't affect me because we don't have children. Emotional labor, and how I knew that situation would shake out, is one of the reasons we don't have children.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [54 favorites]
Basically, TINSTAFH = "There is no such thing as a free hug".
(And count me in as coming from a family where gift giving and card giving just isn't something done at all. I'm the only one that gives gifts to my mom and younger brother. But to my mom's credit, she does give me cash on New Year's and occasionally on birthday's.)
posted by FJT at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
(And count me in as coming from a family where gift giving and card giving just isn't something done at all. I'm the only one that gives gifts to my mom and younger brother. But to my mom's credit, she does give me cash on New Year's and occasionally on birthday's.)
posted by FJT at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Will that ever happen?
I hope not! It's nothing but a wealth transfer from childless people to parents!
I'd support a basic wage paid to all Americans out of tax receipts regardless of parental status though. Parents could use that money to hire a nanny or whatever. While I buy books.
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [26 favorites]
I hope not! It's nothing but a wealth transfer from childless people to parents!
I'd support a basic wage paid to all Americans out of tax receipts regardless of parental status though. Parents could use that money to hire a nanny or whatever. While I buy books.
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [26 favorites]
We DON'T. We don't fucking care about your mom's birthday or little sally the 14th cousin 37 times removed's fucking piano recital. But we're the ones who have to deal with the emotional and social fallout of no one caring, always. ALWAYS.
It's funny, because the classic AskMe advice in this case (if it were, say, about your parents expecting XYZ from you as a 50 year old or your MIL wanting you to do ABC) is:
SHUT THEM OFF. WALK AWAY. YOU ARE AN ADULT.
Why not in this case? (Other than the systemic nature of it, sure..). But it's like someone in an abusive relationship. We don't blame the victim but we ask "why don't they leave".. If no woman dated a misogynist asshole, they'd figure out or simply self-select out of the gene-pool. I know plenty of feminist women who date assholes.. which I just. . don't. . get.
Or in sallybrown's example above: "Mom-in-law, that is not my job. Would you like to talk to Bob? No? Okay, goodbye."
posted by mbatch at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [15 favorites]
It's funny, because the classic AskMe advice in this case (if it were, say, about your parents expecting XYZ from you as a 50 year old or your MIL wanting you to do ABC) is:
SHUT THEM OFF. WALK AWAY. YOU ARE AN ADULT.
Why not in this case? (Other than the systemic nature of it, sure..). But it's like someone in an abusive relationship. We don't blame the victim but we ask "why don't they leave".. If no woman dated a misogynist asshole, they'd figure out or simply self-select out of the gene-pool. I know plenty of feminist women who date assholes.. which I just. . don't. . get.
Or in sallybrown's example above: "Mom-in-law, that is not my job. Would you like to talk to Bob? No? Okay, goodbye."
posted by mbatch at 5:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [15 favorites]
It'd just be a stipend from the Government, in case it isn't clear. Sort of like a Basic Income scheme, and the kids would get theirs and their guardians would administer it.
You could leave THE MAN out of it, if you wanted (and you'd probably have to). There'd be a lot of complexity in managing so many transactions, but probably you could do it with Square or PayPal.
Who will be the Uber of Emotional Labor?
posted by notyou at 5:11 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
You could leave THE MAN out of it, if you wanted (and you'd probably have to). There'd be a lot of complexity in managing so many transactions, but probably you could do it with Square or PayPal.
Who will be the Uber of Emotional Labor?
posted by notyou at 5:11 PM on July 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Isn't raising children it's own reward!??
What? Why are you looking at me like that?
posted by Justinian at 5:14 PM on July 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
What? Why are you looking at me like that?
posted by Justinian at 5:14 PM on July 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
I'm not sure what to take from this thread but that everyone really, quietly, secretly despises everyone else.
posted by effugas at 5:15 PM on July 15, 2015 [104 favorites]
posted by effugas at 5:15 PM on July 15, 2015 [104 favorites]
Metafilter: everyone really, quietly, secretly despises everyone else.
posted by FJT at 5:16 PM on July 15, 2015 [68 favorites]
posted by FJT at 5:16 PM on July 15, 2015 [68 favorites]
i have never been quiet or secret about that, come on
posted by poffin boffin at 5:16 PM on July 15, 2015 [153 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:16 PM on July 15, 2015 [153 favorites]
Women are culturally seen as caring and empathetic. Asking "why don't you just not care" is ignoring the fact that to society, a woman who doesn't care is defective.
posted by mikurski at 5:17 PM on July 15, 2015 [240 favorites]
posted by mikurski at 5:17 PM on July 15, 2015 [240 favorites]
This thread also dovetails interestingly with the one from a few days ago about women on the autism spectrum, wherein autistic women learn early in life that they're expected to perform emotional labor, pick up just enough cues from others to maintain the performance even if they don't understand the nuances, and then miss out on getting diagnosed because they present too "normally."
It's yet another double bind of the patriarchy. If you admit that you have a problem picking up in the ins and outs of emotional labor, you get chastised in ways that more or less boil down to "you are bad at you gender." If you pick up enough survival skills to get by, you're "naturally" nurturing and can't possibly be struggling.
This would all be so much easier if we were willing to admit that emotional care taking is a learned skill, and not something thatpeople women are innately born with.
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:22 PM on July 15, 2015 [149 favorites]
It's yet another double bind of the patriarchy. If you admit that you have a problem picking up in the ins and outs of emotional labor, you get chastised in ways that more or less boil down to "you are bad at you gender." If you pick up enough survival skills to get by, you're "naturally" nurturing and can't possibly be struggling.
This would all be so much easier if we were willing to admit that emotional care taking is a learned skill, and not something that
posted by ActionPopulated at 5:22 PM on July 15, 2015 [149 favorites]
GuyZero: "But just for the super-specific point of birthday cards, I actually don't understand why women care either. "
I didn't actually say birthday CARD, I just said "forgets her birthday." I truly and profoundly do not give a shit about birthday cards and we don't do them in our family. But if someone forgets to recognize a family member's birthday/rite of passage/holiday, people never blame the husband. They always blame the wife. No matter whose relative it is.
mbatch: "If no woman dated a misogynist asshole, they'd figure out or simply self-select out of the gene-pool. I know plenty of feminist women who date assholes.. which I just. . don't. . get. "
It'd be great if we could opt out of ALL OF SOCIETY and the unfair social expectations and rules the world places on us!
Or, maybe if I were a dude, I could be like you and just say, "I don't understand why women are complaining about emotional labor expectations being unfairly assigned by society at large -- they could just stop dating assholes and the problem would solve itself!"
But, alas, as a woman -- even though I smartly married a feminist man, and thus under your theory should have escaped the problem -- I'm still subjected to those expectations from a broader society that expects that I am the emotional laborer in the family, the one who should be sending cards, buying presents, arranging playdates, wrapping gifts, talking to teachers, cleaning up vomit, teaching table manners, decorating the living room, choosing the plates, etc. etc. etc.
I wish I was a dude so I could, like you, simply opt out of the emotional labor of caring about emotional labor. OH BUT I HAVE MATCHING CHROMOSOMES SO I CAN'T.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:23 PM on July 15, 2015 [143 favorites]
I didn't actually say birthday CARD, I just said "forgets her birthday." I truly and profoundly do not give a shit about birthday cards and we don't do them in our family. But if someone forgets to recognize a family member's birthday/rite of passage/holiday, people never blame the husband. They always blame the wife. No matter whose relative it is.
mbatch: "If no woman dated a misogynist asshole, they'd figure out or simply self-select out of the gene-pool. I know plenty of feminist women who date assholes.. which I just. . don't. . get. "
It'd be great if we could opt out of ALL OF SOCIETY and the unfair social expectations and rules the world places on us!
Or, maybe if I were a dude, I could be like you and just say, "I don't understand why women are complaining about emotional labor expectations being unfairly assigned by society at large -- they could just stop dating assholes and the problem would solve itself!"
But, alas, as a woman -- even though I smartly married a feminist man, and thus under your theory should have escaped the problem -- I'm still subjected to those expectations from a broader society that expects that I am the emotional laborer in the family, the one who should be sending cards, buying presents, arranging playdates, wrapping gifts, talking to teachers, cleaning up vomit, teaching table manners, decorating the living room, choosing the plates, etc. etc. etc.
I wish I was a dude so I could, like you, simply opt out of the emotional labor of caring about emotional labor. OH BUT I HAVE MATCHING CHROMOSOMES SO I CAN'T.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:23 PM on July 15, 2015 [143 favorites]
sallybrown: But it's impossible to know whether they would care if they did not live in a world which widely considered this to be "women's work." I don't think this can be a strong counter-argument or dismissed out of hand when there exists a default assumption, baked into society, of "this is not my job."
No, it isn't. Single men generally don't send their friends birthday cards, even if they don't have a woman to do it for them, and it's very rarely taken personally. Also, men generally don't take it personally when they don't receive cards from someone who does have a partner to help them with it. Mostly they just don't care, or at least don't take it personally if they aren't sent.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
No, it isn't. Single men generally don't send their friends birthday cards, even if they don't have a woman to do it for them, and it's very rarely taken personally. Also, men generally don't take it personally when they don't receive cards from someone who does have a partner to help them with it. Mostly they just don't care, or at least don't take it personally if they aren't sent.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
Dear guys: it's not really helpful to women, to say "Pff! Just stop!" because as a guy, you've most likely never been made to feel defective, callous, like a bad child and heartless for failing to do this stuff. You've never gotten the silent treatment, or the angry phone call from an aunt asking you why you are breaking your mother's heart. Or had in-laws act cold because you didn't remember someone's birthday. But plenty of women have.
Here's what you need to say. "Damn, that sucks. I'm sorry anyone is making you feel that way. I'll stand up for you to my folks if they give you any of that, and tell them to stop. I won't expect you to manage my relationships with my family; that's on me. I will pay attention and do my share to manage how our family/relationship is doing and take responsibility for that, as well as for all the drudgery of living (cooking, cleaning, maintenence and repair, garbage, yard, bills, long-term planning). If I am having giant emotional issues, I won't expect you to solve them for me, though I will appreciate your help."
It takes a lot longer to say, but it's a lot more useful.
posted by emjaybee at 5:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [452 favorites]
Here's what you need to say. "Damn, that sucks. I'm sorry anyone is making you feel that way. I'll stand up for you to my folks if they give you any of that, and tell them to stop. I won't expect you to manage my relationships with my family; that's on me. I will pay attention and do my share to manage how our family/relationship is doing and take responsibility for that, as well as for all the drudgery of living (cooking, cleaning, maintenence and repair, garbage, yard, bills, long-term planning). If I am having giant emotional issues, I won't expect you to solve them for me, though I will appreciate your help."
It takes a lot longer to say, but it's a lot more useful.
posted by emjaybee at 5:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [452 favorites]
Whether it's birthday cards or whatever, sometimes the reason those relationships get maintained is because of politics and sometimes it's because, you know, they desire a relationship. Or they want their kids to have the relationship. It isn't helpful to say "just don't care" because it's fine to care, there's nothing wrong with caring. But it does mean dealing with other people's expectations more than you have to if you don't care or are able to maintain a strong boundary, and the responsibility for that falls unfairly heavily on women.
In fact, in the classic "my MIL will flip her shit if I don't..." situation, part of the reason the MIL ended up that way is the weight of the expectations on women to do these things.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
In fact, in the classic "my MIL will flip her shit if I don't..." situation, part of the reason the MIL ended up that way is the weight of the expectations on women to do these things.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:34 PM on July 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
Emotional labour performed by men is paid better. Men get pats on the head and appreciation for acts of listening that would simply be expected from women.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [59 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [59 favorites]
Truly, we have reached Peak Care.
posted by effugas at 5:36 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by effugas at 5:36 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm sorry so many of you feel this way about your relationships with men. We need to do better.
posted by tallthinone at 5:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by tallthinone at 5:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [27 favorites]
It's really weird that people are honing into the detail of birthday cards and dismissing it as unnecessary without realizing what they represent - the maintenance of social relationships. Okay, yes, maybe you or your mom or your fourth cousin doesn't really care for birthdays. But even if you aren't sending birthday cards, you're phoning them or bringing over flowers for their big occasions or sharing recipes with them or shopping and sending them gifts for Christmas and sending them thank you notes for the gifts they sent you. And then maybe you'll argue that the person in question doesn't care about any of THAT shit in isolation, and maybe it's true that you could drop one or two of these things and not see a big change in your relationship - but try dropping literally every token of social interaction and then seeing how far your relationship gets on radio silence. Like the whole point is that relationships are built upon hundreds of small interactions, none of them essential, but all of them important in cumulation. Honing in on one aspect and going "pfft that's trivial" doesn't make sense.
posted by Conspire at 5:39 PM on July 15, 2015 [198 favorites]
posted by Conspire at 5:39 PM on July 15, 2015 [198 favorites]
Yeah, you guys act like women can just opt out of emotional labor consequence free. If we opt out of doing the expected emotional labor, then we get to deal with the generalized opprobrium for opting out! My husband and I have been together for 20 years and when I finally asked him "Why is your father's wife calling me to arrange for the two of you to go hiking together?" he said ". . . because the patriarchy. Just tell her I'll call my dad directly." So now I have to deal with her calling me 18 times a day and texting me "CALL ME ASAP" until my husband finally remembers to call his father 10 days after the barrage and onslaught starts. I could block her number, but that would probably have even greater consequences , not just for myself but for my husband and children.
I've told this story here before, but the year our older child was entering first grade, I had a gig the night of the Parent Curriculum Night at the school, so my husband went instead. When it asked for contact information, he gave only his email address and phone number, because he is used to thinking of himself as one person, not as a representative of the family. So it was his email address and his phone number that went out in the "get to know your classmates' parents" email, and he got every birthday invitation, every teacher email, every playdate invite, every Wacky Hair Day or Wear the Regalia of Your Favorite Sports Team Day email. And not me! Suddenly, he was in charge of managing our daughter's social life and school interactions. And even though what he did most of the time was just throw it over to me, he found it absolutely exhausting.
"NOW YOU UNDERSTAND," I told him. "Except that for me, it's not just like this for the school, it's like this for EVERYTHING."
posted by KathrynT at 5:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [377 favorites]
I've told this story here before, but the year our older child was entering first grade, I had a gig the night of the Parent Curriculum Night at the school, so my husband went instead. When it asked for contact information, he gave only his email address and phone number, because he is used to thinking of himself as one person, not as a representative of the family. So it was his email address and his phone number that went out in the "get to know your classmates' parents" email, and he got every birthday invitation, every teacher email, every playdate invite, every Wacky Hair Day or Wear the Regalia of Your Favorite Sports Team Day email. And not me! Suddenly, he was in charge of managing our daughter's social life and school interactions. And even though what he did most of the time was just throw it over to me, he found it absolutely exhausting.
"NOW YOU UNDERSTAND," I told him. "Except that for me, it's not just like this for the school, it's like this for EVERYTHING."
posted by KathrynT at 5:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [377 favorites]
Some additional complications this market would present:
1. What counts as emotional labor and what doesn't count?
2. Can a person contract around emotional labor payment? Couldn't a husband and wife agree in a prenuptial agreement that each will provide the other with emotional labor gratis?
3. What of those who live alone? They clean their own houses free of charge because the value flows only to them? What if they are cleaning in order to host a party on behalf of another person? (I supposed this could constitute a gift.)
4. What would this do to the childcare, eldercare, housekeeping, hospitality, etc industries.
It is interesting that this solution would just lock us into market capitalism even more. Monetize everything.... Or is this just recognizing a value that already exists (a flaw in the market)?
posted by sallybrown at 5:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
1. What counts as emotional labor and what doesn't count?
2. Can a person contract around emotional labor payment? Couldn't a husband and wife agree in a prenuptial agreement that each will provide the other with emotional labor gratis?
3. What of those who live alone? They clean their own houses free of charge because the value flows only to them? What if they are cleaning in order to host a party on behalf of another person? (I supposed this could constitute a gift.)
4. What would this do to the childcare, eldercare, housekeeping, hospitality, etc industries.
It is interesting that this solution would just lock us into market capitalism even more. Monetize everything.... Or is this just recognizing a value that already exists (a flaw in the market)?
posted by sallybrown at 5:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
Mitrovarr: "Mostly they just don't care, or at least don't take it personally if they aren't sent."
Yes, but widowers are notably more socially disconnected that widows, because when men don't do the work of social connection (of which birthday cards are merely a subset) and don't have a wife to do it for them, those social connections wither and die, with statistically notable ill effects on the health of older widowed men:
Part of what creates that is the societal expectation that women are the "social arrangers" and that's what we're trying to talk about in this thread.
And now that I've underlined #WhatAboutTheMen and given evidence that a) women do actually do the bulk of emotional labor and b) it has negative effects on men, can we go back to talking about women and emotional labor? Instead of men complaining that women are just doing things that nobody gives a shit about? WE GET IT, YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT, BUT WE STILL CARE BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU MEN DIE SOONER AND THAT'S JUST THE KIND OF EMOTIONAL LABOR SERVICE WE WOMEN PROVIDE FOR YOU.
And go send your college roommate a goddamned "thinking of you!" card so he doesn't croak.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:45 PM on July 15, 2015 [432 favorites]
Yes, but widowers are notably more socially disconnected that widows, because when men don't do the work of social connection (of which birthday cards are merely a subset) and don't have a wife to do it for them, those social connections wither and die, with statistically notable ill effects on the health of older widowed men:
"The evidence indicates that the aged male survivor experiences a different impact from spousal loss than his female counterpart and that he encounters severe difficulties in adapting to the single status. Adjustment problems are especially compounded by the los of his occupational role, which abruptly removes him from meaningful contact with friends and co-workers. Social isolation among aged widowers leads to a precarious condition which is reflected in unusually high rates of mental disorders, suicides, and mortality risk."It's super-great if bros in their 20s don't care if their old roommates send them birthday cards or not, but a lifetime of skipping out on "emotional labor" and the pernicious social expectations that turn it in to women's work (so that men who DO do emotional labor are sometimes bypassed by social structures that push it onto their wives) creates real and significant negative outcomes for men who suffer emotionally and physically from their social isolation -- most notably for widowers, but divorced men also have a drop in well-being when they lose their spouse.
"Loneliness, depression, and social isolation also contribute to the excess mortality associated with bereavement, divorce, or never having married. A Harvard study reported that socially isolated men have an 82% higher risk of dying from heart disease, compared with men who have strong interpersonal relationships. And the New England Research Institute reported that 66% of men rely on their wives for their primary social supports; only 21% rely on other people, and 10% have no such supports. Clearly, subtracting a wife greatly increases a man's risk of isolation. "You may be in the 21% of men who have social supports other than a spouse. That's great! But a huuuuuuuuuuge proportion of men rely almost entirely on their wives for social connection and that is a) a significant form of work for the wife (or same-sex spouse) who must manage not only her own social-emotional health but her husband's; and b) really dangerous for men who then end up totally disconnected from social and emotionally supports through the loss of a wife by death or divorce.
Part of what creates that is the societal expectation that women are the "social arrangers" and that's what we're trying to talk about in this thread.
And now that I've underlined #WhatAboutTheMen and given evidence that a) women do actually do the bulk of emotional labor and b) it has negative effects on men, can we go back to talking about women and emotional labor? Instead of men complaining that women are just doing things that nobody gives a shit about? WE GET IT, YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT, BUT WE STILL CARE BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU MEN DIE SOONER AND THAT'S JUST THE KIND OF EMOTIONAL LABOR SERVICE WE WOMEN PROVIDE FOR YOU.
And go send your college roommate a goddamned "thinking of you!" card so he doesn't croak.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:45 PM on July 15, 2015 [432 favorites]
You've never gotten the silent treatment, or the angry phone call from an aunt asking you why you are breaking your mother's heart. Or had in-laws act cold because you didn't remember someone's birthday.
You're totally right about it not being the woman's fault and how it should also fall onto the guy to do their own work. Yet aren't those above examples of like controlling behavior done by toxic and self-centered people that one should probably limit their encounters with though? At least, this is what I was told after years of having to deal with similar actions. I'm probably missing something here, because I'm single, huh?
posted by FJT at 5:46 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
You're totally right about it not being the woman's fault and how it should also fall onto the guy to do their own work. Yet aren't those above examples of like controlling behavior done by toxic and self-centered people that one should probably limit their encounters with though? At least, this is what I was told after years of having to deal with similar actions. I'm probably missing something here, because I'm single, huh?
posted by FJT at 5:46 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's really weird that people are honing into the detail of birthday cards and dismissing it as unnecessary without realizing what they represent - the maintenance of social relationships.
But that's par for the course in literally every single discussion here about gender issues, feminism, or sexism -- dudes rush in, find one very tiny aspect of the situation they can pick apart endlessly and point to and say, "see? this isn't a problem, nobody cares about this, just stop caring," et cetera. All that is, guys who do that kind of thing, is a veiled way of telling us to shut the fuck up because you don't want to have to listen or be uncomfortable or ever change anything about your life that might mean you have to make some effort. Just FYI, that means you're exactly the kind of crappy dude that you're telling us to not let into our lives.
posted by palomar at 5:47 PM on July 15, 2015 [232 favorites]
But that's par for the course in literally every single discussion here about gender issues, feminism, or sexism -- dudes rush in, find one very tiny aspect of the situation they can pick apart endlessly and point to and say, "see? this isn't a problem, nobody cares about this, just stop caring," et cetera. All that is, guys who do that kind of thing, is a veiled way of telling us to shut the fuck up because you don't want to have to listen or be uncomfortable or ever change anything about your life that might mean you have to make some effort. Just FYI, that means you're exactly the kind of crappy dude that you're telling us to not let into our lives.
posted by palomar at 5:47 PM on July 15, 2015 [232 favorites]
Single men generally don't send their friends birthday cards, even if they don't have a woman to do it for them, and it's very rarely taken personally. Also, men generally don't take it personally when they don't receive cards from someone who does have a partner to help them with it. Mostly they just don't care, or at least don't take it personally if they aren't sent.
This goes back to the fact that this work is considered a woman's job. A single man is man and is thus not penalized for failing to undertake this emotional labor. A man whose partner fails to send a birthday card is also not penalized, because a man is never expected to do this emotional work. Women in this thread have already testified to the fact that when they are the female partner in this situation, they are penalized for failing to honor the birthday (by card or other gift/attention).
posted by sallybrown at 5:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [49 favorites]
This goes back to the fact that this work is considered a woman's job. A single man is man and is thus not penalized for failing to undertake this emotional labor. A man whose partner fails to send a birthday card is also not penalized, because a man is never expected to do this emotional work. Women in this thread have already testified to the fact that when they are the female partner in this situation, they are penalized for failing to honor the birthday (by card or other gift/attention).
posted by sallybrown at 5:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [49 favorites]
Or, here's another example. I live in a GREAT neighborhood. As I speak, my daughter is out playing kick the can with the other neighborhood kids in the street. There's a treehouse in the tree in my front yard, built entirely by children ages 7-12. When my daughter had a medical emergency and my four year old son ran out the front door that the paramedics left open, one of the neighborhood 12 year olds scooped him up and told me "Don't worry about it -- I've got him. Attend to Lily, he is safe with me, if he has to spend the night at our house, that's fine." We have a block party every labor day and memorial day, we have a neighborhood easter egg hunt. In the summers, one family has an outdoor movie projector and they show movies for all the neighborhood kids while the adults hang out drinking beer and jawing.
You know who does the labor to keep all that together? The women. The kids can all be out in the street playing because there are a lot of stay at home moms, and the older kids (10-14) are OK being left home alone because there are moms on the street during the afternoon. The women plan the block parties. The women rent the movies. The women arrange the dinners to people who just had a new baby, or whose spouse just died. The men show up, and they enjoy it, and they benefit hugely from the close-knit nature of our neighborhood -- but it's the women who make it happen.
posted by KathrynT at 5:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [275 favorites]
You know who does the labor to keep all that together? The women. The kids can all be out in the street playing because there are a lot of stay at home moms, and the older kids (10-14) are OK being left home alone because there are moms on the street during the afternoon. The women plan the block parties. The women rent the movies. The women arrange the dinners to people who just had a new baby, or whose spouse just died. The men show up, and they enjoy it, and they benefit hugely from the close-knit nature of our neighborhood -- but it's the women who make it happen.
posted by KathrynT at 5:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [275 favorites]
Also, I personally have been dragged over the proverbial coals in very dramatic fashion by my single men friends whose birthdays I have forgotten to acknowledge. As the female friend I am expected to plug myself into the wife role for things like this, e.g., to dote on the birthday boy. I don't mind doing it because I love my friends, but there would be real consequences if I failed to.
posted by sallybrown at 5:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 5:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [13 favorites]
but kathryn one time a man did a thing so now that's all invalid
posted by poffin boffin at 5:51 PM on July 15, 2015 [183 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:51 PM on July 15, 2015 [183 favorites]
Yeah, it's impossible to know. I agree. But just for the super-specific point of birthday cards, I actually don't understand why women care either. Maybe I'm just old and cranky and maybe other people like birthday cards a lot.
I understand this feeling because I have a visceral reaction against certain rhetoric about housework as a feminist issue, namely the idea that I "expect a woman to clean up after me." Because of course I don't expect shit to be clean and it's not a law of the damn cosmos that the bed has to be made when nobody is even conceivably coming over. The difference in expectations comes from gendered socialization but it's not a fact that all these things have to be done and I promise that I will never, ever be upset that they aren't.
But your expectations and mine aren't the truth either - even if it's not your fault that the expectation exists, even if there is truly no external reason (sometimes there really is) that it's going to matter, you still gotta do what you can in a relationship to help the other person handle things that feel important to them. Or that's what I try to remind myself when I get irritated about something like this.
posted by atoxyl at 5:52 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
I understand this feeling because I have a visceral reaction against certain rhetoric about housework as a feminist issue, namely the idea that I "expect a woman to clean up after me." Because of course I don't expect shit to be clean and it's not a law of the damn cosmos that the bed has to be made when nobody is even conceivably coming over. The difference in expectations comes from gendered socialization but it's not a fact that all these things have to be done and I promise that I will never, ever be upset that they aren't.
But your expectations and mine aren't the truth either - even if it's not your fault that the expectation exists, even if there is truly no external reason (sometimes there really is) that it's going to matter, you still gotta do what you can in a relationship to help the other person handle things that feel important to them. Or that's what I try to remind myself when I get irritated about something like this.
posted by atoxyl at 5:52 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's funny, because the classic AskMe advice in this case (if it were, say, about your parents expecting XYZ from you as a 50 year old or your MIL wanting you to do ABC) is:
SHUT THEM OFF. WALK AWAY. YOU ARE AN ADULT.
Which is exactly what some of us do. I've done it more and more over the years. About 4 seconds after my mother's corpse was cold, I told my sister, "I am never ever attending another family Christmas. Adios, muchacha." And I'm perfectly fine with accepting the fallout of that. The thing is, most men not only don't have to deal with the fallout of "walking away" or opting out of various emotional chores, but they are very, very often never expected to have done The Thing in the first place.
In US culture at least, there are certain people within a family or relationship who are going to be asked or automatically expected to step up in situations like an elderly relative needing in-home care or support or company, a niece or nephew needing a last-minute babysitter or someone other than a parent to attend a school play, hosting a holiday event or reunion, visiting someone in a hospital, providing goodies for a playdate, mending fences between arguing parties or keeping lines of communication open, etc., etc., etc. and other people who aren't asked or expected to do those. And we know the general gender breakdown of those two groups.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:52 PM on July 15, 2015 [44 favorites]
SHUT THEM OFF. WALK AWAY. YOU ARE AN ADULT.
Which is exactly what some of us do. I've done it more and more over the years. About 4 seconds after my mother's corpse was cold, I told my sister, "I am never ever attending another family Christmas. Adios, muchacha." And I'm perfectly fine with accepting the fallout of that. The thing is, most men not only don't have to deal with the fallout of "walking away" or opting out of various emotional chores, but they are very, very often never expected to have done The Thing in the first place.
In US culture at least, there are certain people within a family or relationship who are going to be asked or automatically expected to step up in situations like an elderly relative needing in-home care or support or company, a niece or nephew needing a last-minute babysitter or someone other than a parent to attend a school play, hosting a holiday event or reunion, visiting someone in a hospital, providing goodies for a playdate, mending fences between arguing parties or keeping lines of communication open, etc., etc., etc. and other people who aren't asked or expected to do those. And we know the general gender breakdown of those two groups.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:52 PM on July 15, 2015 [44 favorites]
This thread also dovetails interestingly with the one from a few days ago about women on the autism spectrum, wherein autistic women learn early in life that they're expected to perform emotional labor, pick up just enough cues from others to maintain the performance even if they don't understand the nuances, and then miss out on getting diagnosed because they present too "normally."
Oh wow, I'm off to check that out because it explains a lot of things about my childhood and adolescence.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
Oh wow, I'm off to check that out because it explains a lot of things about my childhood and adolescence.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
66% of men rely on their wives for their primary social supports;
the last time my husband made a new friend was when my BFF got remarried.
posted by KathrynT at 5:56 PM on July 15, 2015 [39 favorites]
the last time my husband made a new friend was when my BFF got remarried.
posted by KathrynT at 5:56 PM on July 15, 2015 [39 favorites]
whatever couples or people do individually, fact of the matter is that studies show that in heterosexual relationships women do more than 50% of the sort of feminine coded unpaid labor we're discussing here.
it's honestly one reason i chose to be a housewife, if i'm going to be doing a majority of the work in the home and in our social groups, i'm not also going to work 50+ hours on top of it. in my previous long term relationships i brought in a majority of the money and did nearly all the feminine emotional labor. luckily i have a super awesome husband who values my work just as highly (if not more) than he values his own. i know a lot of people think me some sort of slave to the patriarchy for keeping house, but it's frankly the most equitable relationship i've ever been in.
posted by nadawi at 6:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [181 favorites]
it's honestly one reason i chose to be a housewife, if i'm going to be doing a majority of the work in the home and in our social groups, i'm not also going to work 50+ hours on top of it. in my previous long term relationships i brought in a majority of the money and did nearly all the feminine emotional labor. luckily i have a super awesome husband who values my work just as highly (if not more) than he values his own. i know a lot of people think me some sort of slave to the patriarchy for keeping house, but it's frankly the most equitable relationship i've ever been in.
posted by nadawi at 6:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [181 favorites]
I remember the first time a salesman asked me if the lady of the house was in. I truly had no idea what he was talking about and slammed the door and told mom there might be a lady in the house. We went looking. With hammers. Oops.
I loved having a stay at home mom. Fresh bread and honey on the back porch? Roles reversed when I was 13 and then I did all the cooking and cleaning and got my sister through her homework because mom was working and dad was gone.
15 years later I married. Her mom died early in her life and her dad expected her to keep house. He'd burn dinner and she'd clean the oven. I wound up doing everything because of the look on her face.
You folks should learn how to look like that. You might never have to clean anything again.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 6:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
I loved having a stay at home mom. Fresh bread and honey on the back porch? Roles reversed when I was 13 and then I did all the cooking and cleaning and got my sister through her homework because mom was working and dad was gone.
15 years later I married. Her mom died early in her life and her dad expected her to keep house. He'd burn dinner and she'd clean the oven. I wound up doing everything because of the look on her face.
You folks should learn how to look like that. You might never have to clean anything again.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 6:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
You folks should learn how to look like that. You might never have to clean anything again.
really? who will?
posted by KathrynT at 6:31 PM on July 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
really? who will?
posted by KathrynT at 6:31 PM on July 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
You folks should learn how to look like that. You might never have to clean anything again.
In a way you could say she was bartering the emotional labor of expressing "that look" (I'm guessing a look of helplessness or deep longing for assistance, or maybe exhaustion?) for the task of doing the cleaning.
Unless you would have done with work regardless of how she looked at you.
posted by sallybrown at 6:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [19 favorites]
In a way you could say she was bartering the emotional labor of expressing "that look" (I'm guessing a look of helplessness or deep longing for assistance, or maybe exhaustion?) for the task of doing the cleaning.
Unless you would have done with work regardless of how she looked at you.
posted by sallybrown at 6:35 PM on July 15, 2015 [19 favorites]
It's hilarious when you realize that men actually do worry about emotional labor and consider it work—once you frame it in traditional male terms: NETWORKING.
Job networking! Every goddamn career advice source ever is relentless in drumming how you need to network, network, network! "Hit the pavement! Build your brand! Get your name out there! It's all in who you know! Build relationships! Remember people! Stay in contact! Follow up on leads! Demonstrate what you bring to the company, not what you'll take!"
And then every goddamn jobhunt discussion board ever has the hordes moaning (correctly) about how HARD it is going to all these events, and talking to people, and smiling all the time, and pretending to be interested, and sending all these follow-up notes to people to make them interested in you, and having to be upbeat and confident without being pushy or desperate! Networking is hard!
Networking is emotional labor. And women have to do it ALL OUR LIVES, at work and at home, 24/7, and women don't get a shiny job offer out of it, because we're supposed to just give with no expectation of return, out of the fucking generosity of our female hearts.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:41 PM on July 15, 2015 [391 favorites]
Job networking! Every goddamn career advice source ever is relentless in drumming how you need to network, network, network! "Hit the pavement! Build your brand! Get your name out there! It's all in who you know! Build relationships! Remember people! Stay in contact! Follow up on leads! Demonstrate what you bring to the company, not what you'll take!"
And then every goddamn jobhunt discussion board ever has the hordes moaning (correctly) about how HARD it is going to all these events, and talking to people, and smiling all the time, and pretending to be interested, and sending all these follow-up notes to people to make them interested in you, and having to be upbeat and confident without being pushy or desperate! Networking is hard!
Networking is emotional labor. And women have to do it ALL OUR LIVES, at work and at home, 24/7, and women don't get a shiny job offer out of it, because we're supposed to just give with no expectation of return, out of the fucking generosity of our female hearts.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:41 PM on July 15, 2015 [391 favorites]
Having been single with male roommates, married, and now divorced, I have to say that this sort of pressure is astronomically higher on women who are married. I would imagine it's infinite-squared-ly higher on married women with kids.
As a single person, sure, it's easy to manage one's own relationships in such a way that "Walk away" is an option. As a married person, one partner can't really (or shouldn't) unilaterally decide that "Walk away" is an option for the couple, especially if the "Let's figure out when you and I and our husbands can get together!" social-planning pressure is coming from co-workers, supervisors, a partner's close family, or someone else important if your partner's life. As a mother in charge of a child's relationship with his or her grandparents or other extended family, the equation is hugely different.
All of my past partners would have self-identified as "feminist." All of them sucked at doing any of the emotional-work heavy lifting, and almost all of their family members were even worse.
Seriously, if "just walk away" were a valid way of opting out of the patriarchy, trust me! We would have all already walked away.
posted by jaguar at 6:46 PM on July 15, 2015 [121 favorites]
As a single person, sure, it's easy to manage one's own relationships in such a way that "Walk away" is an option. As a married person, one partner can't really (or shouldn't) unilaterally decide that "Walk away" is an option for the couple, especially if the "Let's figure out when you and I and our husbands can get together!" social-planning pressure is coming from co-workers, supervisors, a partner's close family, or someone else important if your partner's life. As a mother in charge of a child's relationship with his or her grandparents or other extended family, the equation is hugely different.
All of my past partners would have self-identified as "feminist." All of them sucked at doing any of the emotional-work heavy lifting, and almost all of their family members were even worse.
Seriously, if "just walk away" were a valid way of opting out of the patriarchy, trust me! We would have all already walked away.
posted by jaguar at 6:46 PM on July 15, 2015 [121 favorites]
Also, I would like to gently suggest to straight dudes who grumble about how hard it is to find a partner and who wonder where all the interesting, fun, smart women are? Maybe they walked away.
posted by KathrynT at 6:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [163 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 6:48 PM on July 15, 2015 [163 favorites]
For a bunch of practical reasons, Atropos Jr's dad ended up being the one who took her to ballet class, did her hair in a bun, made sure she had her ballet slippers etc. Fast-forward to her recital one year and I introduce myself to one of the other mothers as I'm dropping off some costume piece. She stares at me for a second and says, "we all assumed Atropos Jr didn't have a mother." At first I thought she was just being snotty, and there was definite disapproval there, but she was also completely sincere. For this woman, the only possible scenario in which a kid's dad did that job was one in which the mother was dead or otherwise absent. My husband got either pity or adulation from women for doing this stuff; once it turned out I was alive and just not doing "my" job, I was treated with a lot of hostility. Yeah, dance tends to be gendered but this kind of thing happens all over.
posted by atropos at 6:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [193 favorites]
posted by atropos at 6:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [193 favorites]
Imagine if there were a nationwide yearlong emotional labor sit in. The person in the family who does the emotional heavy lifting takes one year off from birthday celebrations, holiday gifts, cocktail party planning, dinner party invites, sending cards and notes, making social calls, making doctor and dentist appointments, keeping the family social calendar, checking the children's homework, etc.
Can you imagine what would happen on Black Friday, or to Hallmark? To Evite?
posted by sallybrown at 6:52 PM on July 15, 2015 [28 favorites]
Can you imagine what would happen on Black Friday, or to Hallmark? To Evite?
posted by sallybrown at 6:52 PM on July 15, 2015 [28 favorites]
Also, I would like to gently suggest to straight dudes who grumble about how hard it is to find a partner and who wonder where all the interesting, fun, smart women are? Maybe they walked away.
I should say, straight dudes who wonder expansively about why women would bother taking on all this pointless, stupid emotional labor when they don't want it, since nobody actually cares about that stuff.
posted by KathrynT at 6:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [31 favorites]
I should say, straight dudes who wonder expansively about why women would bother taking on all this pointless, stupid emotional labor when they don't want it, since nobody actually cares about that stuff.
posted by KathrynT at 6:57 PM on July 15, 2015 [31 favorites]
men thronging the streets, weeping, pantsless, in odd socks, eating burned sad hungry man dinners right from their unwashed hands, fighting one another to the death for the last shreds of a greeting card in a former hallmark that is now a war zone
posted by poffin boffin at 6:58 PM on July 15, 2015 [175 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 6:58 PM on July 15, 2015 [175 favorites]
I remember having conversations about this with my college roommates in the late 70s. I thought this would all be fixed by now.
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [35 favorites]
knowing that if they die without that last pack of thank you notes in their hand they will never feast in the halls of valhalla
posted by poffin boffin at 7:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [47 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 7:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [47 favorites]
Can you imagine what would happen on Black Friday, or to Hallmark? To Evite?
To my toilets??
Seriously, I'd starve to death and die from a toilet disease. From the toilet I don't even use because I clean my own.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
To my toilets??
Seriously, I'd starve to death and die from a toilet disease. From the toilet I don't even use because I clean my own.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:01 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
Seriously, I'd starve to death and die from a toilet disease.
I am pretty sure these do not actually exist and am experimenting to find out for sure. For science!
posted by asperity at 7:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am pretty sure these do not actually exist and am experimenting to find out for sure. For science!
posted by asperity at 7:08 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
In just the past two minutes, watching network television:
An advertisement for some sort of high-fiber snack that included the line "And it's high in fiber so your wife won't give you any more slack." Because wives are assumed to do the work of caring about their husband's health.
Alex Trebek on Jeopardy telling a stay-at-home dad that being at home with the kids must give him a lot of time to keep up with the news and read a great deal. I.... don't even know what to say on that one. Apparently caring for children is a vacation, at least if you're a dude.
posted by jaguar at 7:10 PM on July 15, 2015 [40 favorites]
An advertisement for some sort of high-fiber snack that included the line "And it's high in fiber so your wife won't give you any more slack." Because wives are assumed to do the work of caring about their husband's health.
Alex Trebek on Jeopardy telling a stay-at-home dad that being at home with the kids must give him a lot of time to keep up with the news and read a great deal. I.... don't even know what to say on that one. Apparently caring for children is a vacation, at least if you're a dude.
posted by jaguar at 7:10 PM on July 15, 2015 [40 favorites]
Also, I would like to gently suggest to straight dudes who grumble about how hard it is to find a partner and who wonder where all the interesting, fun, smart women are? Maybe they walked away.
I'm moderately smart, occasionally fun, and seldom interesting, but I can tell you the precise moment ten years ago when I finally swore off any form of dating or romantic partner stuff for good and never looked back (I was already not very into it by then; this was just the "OK, I'm done now" event). This guy I was dating flew to my state to visit me for a few days, and just before he arrived, I came down with a monstrous case of laryngitis, of the Must Scream to Produce Even a Raspy Whisper variety. So I drag myself 50 miles to the airport, pick him up, drive back, stop for take-out, and come home to collapse. Between the take-out joint and the house, I said, as loudly and directly as I could, "OK, I know that you're the guest and I'm the host, but I am sicker than all fuck, and all I'm capable of doing for the next few days is lying on the couch in a stupor watching bad TV between naps. I cannot do the host stuff. If you want something to eat or drink or a clean towel or something, you'll have to get it yourself and find ways to entertain yourself because I am just not up to it."
So we get home, and I take the Chinese food out of the bag, grab a plate, and throw some food on the plate before staggering semi-consciously toward the couch. . . . where the guy is already sitting, and as I approach him not 5 minutes after making that speech, he holds out his hands in the assumption that I'm going to hand him that fucking plate and then go make myself one. And he has the nerve to look startled and disappointed when I don't.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [232 favorites]
I'm moderately smart, occasionally fun, and seldom interesting, but I can tell you the precise moment ten years ago when I finally swore off any form of dating or romantic partner stuff for good and never looked back (I was already not very into it by then; this was just the "OK, I'm done now" event). This guy I was dating flew to my state to visit me for a few days, and just before he arrived, I came down with a monstrous case of laryngitis, of the Must Scream to Produce Even a Raspy Whisper variety. So I drag myself 50 miles to the airport, pick him up, drive back, stop for take-out, and come home to collapse. Between the take-out joint and the house, I said, as loudly and directly as I could, "OK, I know that you're the guest and I'm the host, but I am sicker than all fuck, and all I'm capable of doing for the next few days is lying on the couch in a stupor watching bad TV between naps. I cannot do the host stuff. If you want something to eat or drink or a clean towel or something, you'll have to get it yourself and find ways to entertain yourself because I am just not up to it."
So we get home, and I take the Chinese food out of the bag, grab a plate, and throw some food on the plate before staggering semi-consciously toward the couch. . . . where the guy is already sitting, and as I approach him not 5 minutes after making that speech, he holds out his hands in the assumption that I'm going to hand him that fucking plate and then go make myself one. And he has the nerve to look startled and disappointed when I don't.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [232 favorites]
Conspire: It's really weird that people are honing into the detail of birthday cards and dismissing it as unnecessary without realizing what they represent - the maintenance of social relationships.
I guess I wasn't really thinking of it that way? I just really hate that kind of token chore-like social interaction.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:22 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I guess I wasn't really thinking of it that way? I just really hate that kind of token chore-like social interaction.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:22 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
he holds out his hands in the assumption that I'm going to hand him that fucking plate and then go make myself one. And he has the nerve to look startled and disappointed when I don't.
Holy hell this whole anecdote boils down why I don't date, either. If I'd wanted a child I'd've had one.
posted by winna at 7:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [59 favorites]
Holy hell this whole anecdote boils down why I don't date, either. If I'd wanted a child I'd've had one.
posted by winna at 7:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [59 favorites]
"But I don't care about cards!" is a pretty common "Not all men!" disavowal of participating in the patriarchy in conversations about women's emotional work. I don't know why that's the constant point of contention, but it is.
posted by jaguar at 7:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 7:29 PM on July 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
oh god I'm feeling better every minute about my recent decision to give up and just accept my single status. i may not have anyone to soothingly stroke my fevered brow when i'm sick, but i also don't have anyone expecting me to hand them my plate of dinner. fuck a whole lot of that.
posted by palomar at 7:31 PM on July 15, 2015 [68 favorites]
posted by palomar at 7:31 PM on July 15, 2015 [68 favorites]
this thread is giving me flashbacks to a period of my life where I actually put up with such shit. never again!
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 7:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 7:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
My husband's grandmother was probably the most important person in his life aside from me & our kids; she was nurturing and loving and always there for us, always concerned for us - took him in for over a year when he was kicked out of the house as a teenager - stocked her house with toys when we announced our pregnancy, who was her first great-grandchild - bought the kids something from the thrift store every time she went on her weekly outing there. Very shortly after we started dating, he brought me to meet her, and it was her approval he cared about, fuck the rest of the family - he's a pretty solitary person and kind of the "black sheep" of his family but he loved her straight up, and she was good to him.
Yet, all the years we've been together, I've been the one who arranged visits to see her - she wasn't even so far away, 20 minutes' drive - I went on my own with the kids every month or so. I reminded him to call, and reminded him more times when he forgot to call. I did the work of remembering important days and gifts and so on. He loved her, he wanted to see her and he would talk with her for hours when he did talk to her - he was just busy, and our lives were very full with a new baby every other year, and visiting her wasn't super convenient so it was always on his mental back burner. I have anxiety and my in-laws decided they don't like me (and aren't in our lives, by their choice) so any dealing with his family was always hard on me but his grandmother was as good to me as if I were her own. Her family was the center of her life and she loved our children unreservedly. I tried as much as I could in my own emotional, mental-health treading-water to do this footwork of keeping the bond going but I also felt like: this is his family to handle - I have my own to handle, I shouldn't be expected to negotiate his all the time too. But if I didn't... then he didn't think of it. He is the breadwinner & I am the housewife, the emotional labor is mine. I would tell him that, and he would feel guilty - he is enough of an ally to know I was right and this wasn't right - but not enough that anything ever changed.
She was finally so ill that she couldn't live alone anymore (she fought it as long as she could because she didn't want to give up her independence) and went into a nursing home. It was a depressing place, four beds to her room and she was closest to the door, couldn't see out the window; full of people who were not all there mentally anymore while she was still quite sharp. Her whole life she had been so interested in people - she was the glue of the extended family and always on the phone with this cousin and that one, always telling us details of the lives of people we never met - and now she had no one to talk to. She didn't really have any other hobbies so as far as I could tell she just laid in bed most of the day there. His extended family has some real toxic dynamics amongst his mother's generation and only his aunt was reliably there for her. I visited when I could but not nearly enough - I always had a little one in tow and there wasn't enough space to visit comfortably. I had to remind him to call her, visit her, but he hardly did. Two years she was in that home, then she died last year.
I love my husband very much but I was so angry with him when she died, and so sad. I feel so guilty I didn't visit her more often - that we didn't see her more - but she was his grandmother. Why didn't he go? Why did he need me to prompt him and schedule him? He does nothing but work all the time then be at home with us - he doesn't have hobbies, doesn't go out with friends - he had the time. He was probably her favorite grandchild - she had a photo board hanging over her bed in the nursing home and the one picture of him, out of all her children and his cousins, was dead in the center of the board - we laughed about that. Why didn't he think to put a reminder in his calendar, go sit with her once a week or whatever? It would have made her so happy. He's the kind of guy that doesn't remember birthdays, doesn't do gifts, doesn't keep in touch, didn't see the point of adding people he knew on Facebook. He's thoughtful in practical ways - he's not an asshole, or I wouldn't be married to him, so I don't want you to get the wrong idea here - he meant well, he cared, he works hard to provide for us and the kids & I are his top priority without question - but it was like this stupid blind spot and he didn't clue in all the way until it was too late.
I am so angry at myself that my anxiety about his family got in the way of giving more of myself to a woman who was nothing but good to me and my kids. I am so angry that it was all automatically on my shoulders and not his. Even now he is sad about it but I know it doesn't weigh on him like it does me - that I didn't push him to go more, that I didn't go more myself. I still feel so guilty that - so on the day of her funeral Mass, his aunt called us and asked us to drive his grandmother's former sister-in-law to the church. I had never met her before but she had been tight friends with his grandmother and her sisters for years so I heard all about her. And on the way back, she mentioned she didn't have anyone to drive her to visit his grandmother's sister, the last of 13 siblings still alive, with Alzheimer's in a nursing home, and she misses her so much. So of course I said - I'll take you, it's no trouble.
I drive her out there when I can, which isn't often but it's been at least every couple of months. His aunts and uncle could give a shit about me - and they certainly don't give a shit about their uncle's ex-wife - and she isn't all alone in the world but no one will drive her to visit their aunt. And her son died and none of his family went to the funeral but I did, because I had to, because how could I not? And then I drove her three hours there and back to get his remaining possessions and close his bank account. She's his family, but I do that labor. Because I don't believe in a god, I don't really believe in a heaven but I hope his grandmother somehow knows that I am looking out for her sisters - her best friends - for her sake. Because it's not so much for me to do this, right? Because it fucks me up to think you can live your life giving, giving, giving to your family without limits and they aren't there for you like they should be when you are old and sick. Goddammit. I have five kids and no career but my family - what if that is me, past eighty? How easily that could happen, right? What the hell?
posted by flex at 7:36 PM on July 15, 2015 [436 favorites]
Yet, all the years we've been together, I've been the one who arranged visits to see her - she wasn't even so far away, 20 minutes' drive - I went on my own with the kids every month or so. I reminded him to call, and reminded him more times when he forgot to call. I did the work of remembering important days and gifts and so on. He loved her, he wanted to see her and he would talk with her for hours when he did talk to her - he was just busy, and our lives were very full with a new baby every other year, and visiting her wasn't super convenient so it was always on his mental back burner. I have anxiety and my in-laws decided they don't like me (and aren't in our lives, by their choice) so any dealing with his family was always hard on me but his grandmother was as good to me as if I were her own. Her family was the center of her life and she loved our children unreservedly. I tried as much as I could in my own emotional, mental-health treading-water to do this footwork of keeping the bond going but I also felt like: this is his family to handle - I have my own to handle, I shouldn't be expected to negotiate his all the time too. But if I didn't... then he didn't think of it. He is the breadwinner & I am the housewife, the emotional labor is mine. I would tell him that, and he would feel guilty - he is enough of an ally to know I was right and this wasn't right - but not enough that anything ever changed.
She was finally so ill that she couldn't live alone anymore (she fought it as long as she could because she didn't want to give up her independence) and went into a nursing home. It was a depressing place, four beds to her room and she was closest to the door, couldn't see out the window; full of people who were not all there mentally anymore while she was still quite sharp. Her whole life she had been so interested in people - she was the glue of the extended family and always on the phone with this cousin and that one, always telling us details of the lives of people we never met - and now she had no one to talk to. She didn't really have any other hobbies so as far as I could tell she just laid in bed most of the day there. His extended family has some real toxic dynamics amongst his mother's generation and only his aunt was reliably there for her. I visited when I could but not nearly enough - I always had a little one in tow and there wasn't enough space to visit comfortably. I had to remind him to call her, visit her, but he hardly did. Two years she was in that home, then she died last year.
I love my husband very much but I was so angry with him when she died, and so sad. I feel so guilty I didn't visit her more often - that we didn't see her more - but she was his grandmother. Why didn't he go? Why did he need me to prompt him and schedule him? He does nothing but work all the time then be at home with us - he doesn't have hobbies, doesn't go out with friends - he had the time. He was probably her favorite grandchild - she had a photo board hanging over her bed in the nursing home and the one picture of him, out of all her children and his cousins, was dead in the center of the board - we laughed about that. Why didn't he think to put a reminder in his calendar, go sit with her once a week or whatever? It would have made her so happy. He's the kind of guy that doesn't remember birthdays, doesn't do gifts, doesn't keep in touch, didn't see the point of adding people he knew on Facebook. He's thoughtful in practical ways - he's not an asshole, or I wouldn't be married to him, so I don't want you to get the wrong idea here - he meant well, he cared, he works hard to provide for us and the kids & I are his top priority without question - but it was like this stupid blind spot and he didn't clue in all the way until it was too late.
I am so angry at myself that my anxiety about his family got in the way of giving more of myself to a woman who was nothing but good to me and my kids. I am so angry that it was all automatically on my shoulders and not his. Even now he is sad about it but I know it doesn't weigh on him like it does me - that I didn't push him to go more, that I didn't go more myself. I still feel so guilty that - so on the day of her funeral Mass, his aunt called us and asked us to drive his grandmother's former sister-in-law to the church. I had never met her before but she had been tight friends with his grandmother and her sisters for years so I heard all about her. And on the way back, she mentioned she didn't have anyone to drive her to visit his grandmother's sister, the last of 13 siblings still alive, with Alzheimer's in a nursing home, and she misses her so much. So of course I said - I'll take you, it's no trouble.
I drive her out there when I can, which isn't often but it's been at least every couple of months. His aunts and uncle could give a shit about me - and they certainly don't give a shit about their uncle's ex-wife - and she isn't all alone in the world but no one will drive her to visit their aunt. And her son died and none of his family went to the funeral but I did, because I had to, because how could I not? And then I drove her three hours there and back to get his remaining possessions and close his bank account. She's his family, but I do that labor. Because I don't believe in a god, I don't really believe in a heaven but I hope his grandmother somehow knows that I am looking out for her sisters - her best friends - for her sake. Because it's not so much for me to do this, right? Because it fucks me up to think you can live your life giving, giving, giving to your family without limits and they aren't there for you like they should be when you are old and sick. Goddammit. I have five kids and no career but my family - what if that is me, past eighty? How easily that could happen, right? What the hell?
posted by flex at 7:36 PM on July 15, 2015 [436 favorites]
Oh my god are we still on the fucking birthday cards? JESUS.
THE CARDS ARE NOT THE POINT. The point is the theme - it's the cards, and the presents and the phone calls and the thank you notes and the dinner reservations and the babysitter and the laundry and the dry cleaning and the doctor's appts and the vitamins and the groceries and the garden and the kitchen floor and the toilet paper and the 99,999 other things that mostly women end up doing because we've had god knows HOW Long of society saying it's OUR JOB even if we have -other jobs- and it ends up being women going "no, we need to eat vegetables jesus christ you can't just have fish sticks and tater tots five nights a week can you feed our kid some fruit and vegetables holy shit take out the diaper pail JESUS" and ... the guy playing Starcraft.
(note - my spouse is a mefi member, and this is an extreme exaggeration of discussions we've had, and not a reflection of my actual relationship)
posted by FritoKAL at 7:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [85 favorites]
THE CARDS ARE NOT THE POINT. The point is the theme - it's the cards, and the presents and the phone calls and the thank you notes and the dinner reservations and the babysitter and the laundry and the dry cleaning and the doctor's appts and the vitamins and the groceries and the garden and the kitchen floor and the toilet paper and the 99,999 other things that mostly women end up doing because we've had god knows HOW Long of society saying it's OUR JOB even if we have -other jobs- and it ends up being women going "no, we need to eat vegetables jesus christ you can't just have fish sticks and tater tots five nights a week can you feed our kid some fruit and vegetables holy shit take out the diaper pail JESUS" and ... the guy playing Starcraft.
(note - my spouse is a mefi member, and this is an extreme exaggeration of discussions we've had, and not a reflection of my actual relationship)
posted by FritoKAL at 7:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [85 favorites]
I bought a pack of powerpuff girls paper pointy party hats which I bought to humiliate my coworkers on their birthdays but my plot failed because everyone loves them and wears them voluntarily
posted by poffin boffin at 7:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 7:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [37 favorites]
Holy hell this whole anecdote boils down why I don't date, either. If I'd wanted a child I'd've had one.
And of course, this was a perfectly nice fellow -- not some spoiled, selfish manchild but an adult man who regularly cooks really fantastic serious meals for himself, etc. He just grew up in a world where "women bring food to men" is the ingrained norm to the point where it's in people's body language and they have to consciously make themselves unlearn it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
And of course, this was a perfectly nice fellow -- not some spoiled, selfish manchild but an adult man who regularly cooks really fantastic serious meals for himself, etc. He just grew up in a world where "women bring food to men" is the ingrained norm to the point where it's in people's body language and they have to consciously make themselves unlearn it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [17 favorites]
"Emotional labor" at Amazon. There are a couple of excellent books listed right off the bat: Emotional Labor: Putting the Service in Public Service, by Mary E. Guy, and The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling by Arlie Russell Hochschild.
Also, from second wave feminism: Sisterhood is Powerful (ed. Robin Morgan) has some killer essays (and of course the classic Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique).
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [22 favorites]
Also, from second wave feminism: Sisterhood is Powerful (ed. Robin Morgan) has some killer essays (and of course the classic Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique).
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:38 PM on July 15, 2015 [22 favorites]
(killer essays about housework and women's labor, I meant to say, and, ISTR, emotional labor being devalued. It's a great book and all mefites should have it in their library!)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:39 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:39 PM on July 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
flex, *hugs* if you want them.
posted by jaguar at 7:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 7:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
The thing about "but I don't care about cards" is that they kind of don't care about this stuff, and as a result they don't have very many real, strong relationships. This really is a patriarchy-hurts-men-too situation, because reciprocal emotional labor is necessary for real intimacy, and life without intimacy sucks for most people. I don't particularly care about actually sending cards, but the basic emotional labor of listening empathetically, attending to other people's needs, keeping in touch, etc.? That stuff is really important. It's unfair that women have to do most of it, but it also stunts and hurts men when they don't do it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [108 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [108 favorites]
Apparently caring for children is a vacation, at least if you're a dude.
GOD the worst thing is that when a dad is doing any kind of childcare everyone's all "oh how sweet are you babysitting today?" NO YOU GOATFUCKING JACKASS IT'S CALLED BEING A FATHER
posted by poffin boffin at 7:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [146 favorites]
GOD the worst thing is that when a dad is doing any kind of childcare everyone's all "oh how sweet are you babysitting today?" NO YOU GOATFUCKING JACKASS IT'S CALLED BEING A FATHER
posted by poffin boffin at 7:40 PM on July 15, 2015 [146 favorites]
flex - I am so sorry. That is so hard to bear.
posted by sallybrown at 7:43 PM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 7:43 PM on July 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
GOD the worst thing is that when a dad is doing any kind of childcare everyone's all "oh how sweet are you babysitting today?" NO YOU GOATFUCKING JACKASS IT'S CALLED BEING A FATHER
I would have paid money to see the Jeopardy contestant respond in that way to Trebek. I'm going to pretend that he did -- he looked uncomfortable with the assumption that he eats bon-bons and reads history books all day -- and they just had to edit it out.
posted by jaguar at 7:43 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
I would have paid money to see the Jeopardy contestant respond in that way to Trebek. I'm going to pretend that he did -- he looked uncomfortable with the assumption that he eats bon-bons and reads history books all day -- and they just had to edit it out.
posted by jaguar at 7:43 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
greeting cards are a huge thing in my family. i don't care about them, but they are expected at just about every occasion. this is an activity my husband actively loathes (instead of just doesn't care about) so i do 100% of work there, besides him adding a little message. but he does 100% of the cat litter box. we worked out which jobs we hated early in our relationship and so while some of it falls on gendered lines, they are things we actively negotiated instead of him just assuming certain things would fall to me because i'm a woman.
posted by nadawi at 7:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
and damn, flex - you just helped me get over myself a little bit and i'm going to see if i can't get out to my granny's in the next few days...
posted by nadawi at 7:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:44 PM on July 15, 2015 [15 favorites]
Being single can be a welter of negative economies of scale but I would rather pay thousands of dollars a year than have a "partner" who isn't one. I had a FelliniBlank-esque come to Jesus moment many years ago and it changed me.
I think there are nurturing men out there who tend to their own emotional and spiritual lives but none of them have come my way.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 7:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
I think there are nurturing men out there who tend to their own emotional and spiritual lives but none of them have come my way.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 7:49 PM on July 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
so while some of it falls on gendered lines, they are things we actively negotiated instead of him just assuming certain things would fall to me because i'm a woman.
A lot of our stuff falls on gendered lines, too. While it clearly works well for us and we are happy, it's never clear to me how much of that is from being self-aware and consciously choosing this stuff and how much is from the ease of following defined gender paths.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
A lot of our stuff falls on gendered lines, too. While it clearly works well for us and we are happy, it's never clear to me how much of that is from being self-aware and consciously choosing this stuff and how much is from the ease of following defined gender paths.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:50 PM on July 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
one of the things we do is regularly discuss the same sort of gender stuff i discuss here. we're constantly poking at our relationship and our situation to make sure we're both still fulfilled in it. we can't escape the patriarchy, and we're certainly doing far less to buck it than a lot of people, and yeah some parts of it are easy because of social conditioning...but i also think being mindful and not letting it stagnate goes a long way for our personal happiness. we're not saving the world, but we're existing in it the best way we know how.
posted by nadawi at 7:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [21 favorites]
Today I was at a meeting of directors for my municipality, discussing a new compensation scheme. We have updated how we evaluation positions so the actual effort, skills, conditions and accountability are more fairly compensated. We have dealt with Pay Equity for decades, so quantifying emotional labour has been a small part of the evaluation in the past, but now the emotional labour is considered much more important and much higher compensated. It is often phrased as "customer service skills" but really it is one facet of emotional labour. If my tiny municipality can figure out a gender neutral way of quantifying and compensating this emotional labour, there really is no excuse for much larger organisations to continue to ignore it.
posted by saucysault at 8:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 8:00 PM on July 15, 2015 [39 favorites]
Oh Jesus the "babysitting" thing: this used to piss my mom off, and it irritates me so much also. When a male colleague mentions he is babysitting his children I ask if he is getting $5/hr and did someone leave him some snacks in the fridge? You are the parent, this is what you are supposed to do, it's not some gig for extra cash.
posted by maryrussell at 8:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [47 favorites]
posted by maryrussell at 8:05 PM on July 15, 2015 [47 favorites]
Jesus Christ, a lot of you need to leave your sexist husbands.
but kathryn one time a man did a thing so now that's all invalid
Can we just talk about how we deal with it when men DO manage to do this shit? Talk about giving out cookies; a dude does 10% of what the average woman does and gets fucking buried in "feminist" accolades. It's the same shit that leads us to be fucking thrilled about one out of six Avengers being female. Our standards are SO GODDAMN LOW.
posted by NoraReed at 8:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [112 favorites]
but kathryn one time a man did a thing so now that's all invalid
Can we just talk about how we deal with it when men DO manage to do this shit? Talk about giving out cookies; a dude does 10% of what the average woman does and gets fucking buried in "feminist" accolades. It's the same shit that leads us to be fucking thrilled about one out of six Avengers being female. Our standards are SO GODDAMN LOW.
posted by NoraReed at 8:09 PM on July 15, 2015 [112 favorites]
I'm not sure what my experience adds up to, but for what it's worth, my boyfriend is one of those wonderful nurturing men. I found myself wondering, as I read this thread, what the catch was; we aren't married and don't live together, and although he cooks and cleans for his mom and sister (who he lives with) and for me when he stays over, it does sound as though there's something about getting married that triggers all the social-calendar and Christmas-card stuff that people are talking about (not to mention wedding planning itself). And then I realized: he's so nurturing that he works as a preschool teacher. And I am an editorial assistant. And that's why we haven't moved in together or gotten married, because we're both on entry-level wages in traditionally female professions in San Francisco. I guess I'll report back after, like, 3 more years of saving our pennies.
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:31 PM on July 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:31 PM on July 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
So, re: emotional labor in general: yes, women are culturaly expected and conditioned to provide most of it, and it would be great if there were a "normal, everyday" way for them to be compensated. If "sitting down to lunch and having your friend tell you a long story about themselves" is emotional labor (and it is!) then something like hostess clubs ought to be a standard solution, instead of calling up a female friend and expecting her to listen to your problems without doing the same for her. We think of psychiatrists as only dealing with disorders, but why not normalize talking to someone like a psychiatrist about your relationships, and birthday reminders, and listening to your political opinions—and then paying them for their professional work, as they deserve?
That said, I think in a healthy relationship, this kind of labor wouldn't have to be monetized because it would be reciprocal. You don't pay a friend to commiserate with you, but you do the same for them when they need it. And if two people are married, and one takes care of the kids while the other earns money for groceries and rent, then the "breadwinner" shouldn't be paying the "homemaker" for babysitting services any more than the "homemaker" should pay the "breadwinner" for groceries. They're a couple, it's assumed that they work for each other as much as themselves, and any inequities in that work are a problem between them.
(I'm not saying that there isn't a gender bias here! Yes, men expect women to do most of the emotional work in a relationship or marriage, including sending birthday cards, just as a stereotypical 50's nuclear family expects the man to do most of the money-earning. But "just pay them a fair salary" isn't a fully-developed solution—who pays them? how much? what about single parents? etc—and if you work out the details of how "THE MAN/the government" would pay such a salary, it pretty much turns into Basic Income. Which really is yet another reason we should have a basic income.)
posted by Rangi at 8:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
That said, I think in a healthy relationship, this kind of labor wouldn't have to be monetized because it would be reciprocal. You don't pay a friend to commiserate with you, but you do the same for them when they need it. And if two people are married, and one takes care of the kids while the other earns money for groceries and rent, then the "breadwinner" shouldn't be paying the "homemaker" for babysitting services any more than the "homemaker" should pay the "breadwinner" for groceries. They're a couple, it's assumed that they work for each other as much as themselves, and any inequities in that work are a problem between them.
(I'm not saying that there isn't a gender bias here! Yes, men expect women to do most of the emotional work in a relationship or marriage, including sending birthday cards, just as a stereotypical 50's nuclear family expects the man to do most of the money-earning. But "just pay them a fair salary" isn't a fully-developed solution—who pays them? how much? what about single parents? etc—and if you work out the details of how "THE MAN/the government" would pay such a salary, it pretty much turns into Basic Income. Which really is yet another reason we should have a basic income.)
posted by Rangi at 8:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
Thanks y'all. That was hard to type up, airing dirty laundry in public. I love my husband and he is an ally for sure but it took years of me learning and yelling and communicating re: feminism to get there. Fuck, it's not like I even knew what I was getting into - I thought love would cover everything and that is bitter to say all these years down the line of babies, housework, being the fucking manager of seven people's lives and what compensation is there for that shit? Five kids and I was given an IQ of 156 at ten years old but what have I done with my life? Housewife, children, the expectations of my role where I'm not even that good at this when I am so broken inside and always have been. Family is so important to me and it kills me that it's not reciprocated amongst my relatives. It's hard being so far away that we don't have any help and I have to carry this myself, and I feel inadequate to the job, and my husband could care less about his family (rightfully so for the most part) and doesn't feel the importance in any of that when he goes to work every day and draws the paycheck that sustains us.
I am an extrovert and I love having people over for parties, to visit - and I saw immediately when my women friends visit, they jump up to help do dishes or watch little kids. When men visit, they sit and I wait on them. It's almost totally predictable, and I love to host and I love to be a good host so I do that footwork and I don't really resent it, but sometimes I think why did I end up in the traditional model and not, like, a lesbian commune? Because right now I've hit the point where being the only one doing the heavy lifting of cleaning up after everyone and making everyone comfortable and taking care of everyone's needs is getting so very fucking old. Watching my husband get accolades for basically being decent and showing up for me & his kids - from my own mother and grandmother, who have had to put up with enough worse that their standards are that low and they tell me I should be happy I have such a great guy! - but feeling the judgment over is my house clean enough, is my house nice enough, are the kids happy enough, am I being disciplinary enough but not too harsh, are they well-behaved in public? am I writing the thank-yous, am I buying the gifts, am I making the calls, am I taking the photos, am I providing the opportunities to learn & grow, am I spending the time with them, are their shots up to date, are their dental cleanings on time? if not it's on me... I love them and I don't regret them but I totally resent a society that puts all that shit on me.
I didn't really "get" feminism until I was married & had kids. I can't take any of it back but I wish I had known. How can you truly know until you're thrown in the deep end, though? And then what? Fuck Xmas cards - can I raise kids who know better than I did?
posted by flex at 8:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [192 favorites]
I am an extrovert and I love having people over for parties, to visit - and I saw immediately when my women friends visit, they jump up to help do dishes or watch little kids. When men visit, they sit and I wait on them. It's almost totally predictable, and I love to host and I love to be a good host so I do that footwork and I don't really resent it, but sometimes I think why did I end up in the traditional model and not, like, a lesbian commune? Because right now I've hit the point where being the only one doing the heavy lifting of cleaning up after everyone and making everyone comfortable and taking care of everyone's needs is getting so very fucking old. Watching my husband get accolades for basically being decent and showing up for me & his kids - from my own mother and grandmother, who have had to put up with enough worse that their standards are that low and they tell me I should be happy I have such a great guy! - but feeling the judgment over is my house clean enough, is my house nice enough, are the kids happy enough, am I being disciplinary enough but not too harsh, are they well-behaved in public? am I writing the thank-yous, am I buying the gifts, am I making the calls, am I taking the photos, am I providing the opportunities to learn & grow, am I spending the time with them, are their shots up to date, are their dental cleanings on time? if not it's on me... I love them and I don't regret them but I totally resent a society that puts all that shit on me.
I didn't really "get" feminism until I was married & had kids. I can't take any of it back but I wish I had known. How can you truly know until you're thrown in the deep end, though? And then what? Fuck Xmas cards - can I raise kids who know better than I did?
posted by flex at 8:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [192 favorites]
I'd be interested to know whether the ideal solution to the inequity in emotional labor is for women to perform a lot less, men to perform a lot more, or everyone to meet in the middle somewhere.
I will say that as a female introvert on the T-not-F side, I'd be very very happy to dial back the emotional labor considerably, except that it's enforced in many cases by the expectations of other women. I doubt my father-in-law knows much or cares whether he gets a birthday card on time, but my MIL would be furious if we missed her. 90% of the people who send me little unsolicited gifts and things that now require tedious thank-you notes and make me feel guilty for not being extravagantly grateful are women. I can't count the female friendships that have died on me, not because the person and I liked each other less or weren't able to be there for each other when it really counted, but because the other woman expected all these little cards and emails and presents and check-ins that were absolutely out of my league in emotional expenditure, and that never seem to be demanded within male-male friendships. Of my kids' fussy school benefits and special clothing days and whatnot, I really wonder how many of them are organized by women. It's like a miserable Abilene scenario where in addition to having work demanded of us by men, we all sit around and create negative-utility work for each other.
None of that means that the phenomenon isn't undergirded by patriarchal assumptions in a larger sense, of course. But I do think there's a way for women to be part of the solution vs. part of the problem, and I wonder whether that might mean reducing our expectations of each other's emotional labor, as well.
posted by Bardolph at 8:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [47 favorites]
I will say that as a female introvert on the T-not-F side, I'd be very very happy to dial back the emotional labor considerably, except that it's enforced in many cases by the expectations of other women. I doubt my father-in-law knows much or cares whether he gets a birthday card on time, but my MIL would be furious if we missed her. 90% of the people who send me little unsolicited gifts and things that now require tedious thank-you notes and make me feel guilty for not being extravagantly grateful are women. I can't count the female friendships that have died on me, not because the person and I liked each other less or weren't able to be there for each other when it really counted, but because the other woman expected all these little cards and emails and presents and check-ins that were absolutely out of my league in emotional expenditure, and that never seem to be demanded within male-male friendships. Of my kids' fussy school benefits and special clothing days and whatnot, I really wonder how many of them are organized by women. It's like a miserable Abilene scenario where in addition to having work demanded of us by men, we all sit around and create negative-utility work for each other.
None of that means that the phenomenon isn't undergirded by patriarchal assumptions in a larger sense, of course. But I do think there's a way for women to be part of the solution vs. part of the problem, and I wonder whether that might mean reducing our expectations of each other's emotional labor, as well.
posted by Bardolph at 8:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [47 favorites]
GOD the worst thing is that when a dad is doing any kind of childcare everyone's all "oh how sweet are you babysitting today?" NO YOU GOATFUCKING JACKASS IT'S CALLED BEING A FATHER
I *may* have stolen it from someone here, but my typical response to this (and I get it all the time) is, "nope, I'm just watching them while their folks are at the methadone clinic."
posted by ryanshepard at 8:39 PM on July 15, 2015 [35 favorites]
I *may* have stolen it from someone here, but my typical response to this (and I get it all the time) is, "nope, I'm just watching them while their folks are at the methadone clinic."
posted by ryanshepard at 8:39 PM on July 15, 2015 [35 favorites]
GOD the worst thing is that when a dad is doing any kind of childcare everyone's all "oh how sweet are you babysitting today?" NO YOU GOATFUCKING JACKASS IT'S CALLED BEING A FATHER
When our first child was an infant, my husband and I had a deal: since I was solely responsible for input (we were breastfeeding), he was solely responsible for output, if he was around. That meant he changed every diaper. EVERY diaper. I only changed diapers when he was at work.
Not-infrequently, we'd be out someplace that only had a changing table in the ladies' room. So my husband would knock on the door and say "Hi, I need to change a baby, can I come in?" Inevitably he would be welcomed in enthusiastically and then all the women would stand around and coo at him. One woman once said "Oh, it's so nice of you to help out like this," and he said "I'm sorry, I don't think you understand -- I'm her father."
posted by KathrynT at 8:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [244 favorites]
When our first child was an infant, my husband and I had a deal: since I was solely responsible for input (we were breastfeeding), he was solely responsible for output, if he was around. That meant he changed every diaper. EVERY diaper. I only changed diapers when he was at work.
Not-infrequently, we'd be out someplace that only had a changing table in the ladies' room. So my husband would knock on the door and say "Hi, I need to change a baby, can I come in?" Inevitably he would be welcomed in enthusiastically and then all the women would stand around and coo at him. One woman once said "Oh, it's so nice of you to help out like this," and he said "I'm sorry, I don't think you understand -- I'm her father."
posted by KathrynT at 8:55 PM on July 15, 2015 [244 favorites]
I just got dumped from a relationship wherein, in the process of breaking up with me, my ex-partner, whom I had previously quite loved and respected, told me in response to me trying to talk maturely about our communication problems and his mental health, "All your solutions sound like more work. I'm not going to do any more emotional work."
The fact that this male person thought that simply not doing emotional work was an option for a functioning adult human being that in any capacity that ever interacts with other people, or even with himself in a healthy way, fucking staggered me. With one statement, he destroyed all the goodwill, trust, and respect he'd built up with me in a year and a half.
I would like to print this out and nail it on his fucking door like Martin Luther.
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [207 favorites]
The fact that this male person thought that simply not doing emotional work was an option for a functioning adult human being that in any capacity that ever interacts with other people, or even with himself in a healthy way, fucking staggered me. With one statement, he destroyed all the goodwill, trust, and respect he'd built up with me in a year and a half.
I would like to print this out and nail it on his fucking door like Martin Luther.
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:04 PM on July 15, 2015 [207 favorites]
I'd be interested to know whether the ideal solution to the inequity in emotional labor is for women to perform a lot less, men to perform a lot more, or everyone to meet in the middle somewhere.
I definitely think the market would play a huge role in this. It's already slowly happening through these last few decades. Earlier in the thread there was mention of Host/Hostess club and therapy. You can also fit in event planning, babysitting, house cleaning services, laundry services, Trunk Club, Meetup, and advice/Q&A sites (like AskMe, Quora, Jelly).
Remember in Her how Joaquin Phoenix's occupation was to compose personalized messages on letters and cards? I could imagine a subscription service where you give out your contact list and every time a holiday rolls around cards get sent to people on the list. Maybe you can add your own details or have 'em first sent over to your own house to sign them.
posted by FJT at 9:17 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I definitely think the market would play a huge role in this. It's already slowly happening through these last few decades. Earlier in the thread there was mention of Host/Hostess club and therapy. You can also fit in event planning, babysitting, house cleaning services, laundry services, Trunk Club, Meetup, and advice/Q&A sites (like AskMe, Quora, Jelly).
Remember in Her how Joaquin Phoenix's occupation was to compose personalized messages on letters and cards? I could imagine a subscription service where you give out your contact list and every time a holiday rolls around cards get sent to people on the list. Maybe you can add your own details or have 'em first sent over to your own house to sign them.
posted by FJT at 9:17 PM on July 15, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd be interested to know whether the ideal solution to the inequity in emotional labor is for women to perform a lot less, men to perform a lot more, or everyone to meet in the middle somewhere.
What does "meet in the middle" look like to you if it does not include women performing less and men performing more?
The emotional work is what is needed for a civilised society; the real solution is to value it as highly as it is truly needed and acknowledge, validate, and compensate people who perform emotional labour.
posted by saucysault at 9:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
What does "meet in the middle" look like to you if it does not include women performing less and men performing more?
The emotional work is what is needed for a civilised society; the real solution is to value it as highly as it is truly needed and acknowledge, validate, and compensate people who perform emotional labour.
posted by saucysault at 9:18 PM on July 15, 2015 [24 favorites]
Well, and he deserves it, WidgetAlley. Damn.
So many of these stories are making me sad, but I need to hear them.
And flex; what you did counted, even if it wasn't as much as you wanted it to be, and it's not your fault that no one else stepped up who should have. You made her last days better. I kind of want you to print out your post and make your husband read it, but it's not my place to tell you what to do, but still I think it would do him good to understand how you feel.
I am always going on about Ursula LeGuin but one of the throughlines in her books is that the real work of the world is taking care of each other, raising children, and behaving rightly, and that wars and fame and conquests are things that destroy that work, or get in its way, and yet those are the things we put in our histories and give honor to. The work that is least compensated, caring for the sick and old and babies, keeping everyone clean and fed and sheltered and comfortable and clothed, is the only thing that keeps the world running, and yet we despise it and despise those that do it. But where would we be if it stopped?
At the same time, it's easy to get a martyr complex when you're a woman, a feeling that you have to sacrifice everything because there is so much need and no one else will. It can make you crazy and ruin your own health.
And the only answer is: men need to step up. You don't have to write Christmas cards or whatever nitpicky thing you hate. But you do have to give a shit about other people, so that the world can keep turning without grinding women up in the process. You need to question whether those around you benefit more from you working 80 hour weeks than they do from you spending time with them. And remember what they have done for you that deserves reciprocation.
posted by emjaybee at 9:27 PM on July 15, 2015 [172 favorites]
So many of these stories are making me sad, but I need to hear them.
And flex; what you did counted, even if it wasn't as much as you wanted it to be, and it's not your fault that no one else stepped up who should have. You made her last days better. I kind of want you to print out your post and make your husband read it, but it's not my place to tell you what to do, but still I think it would do him good to understand how you feel.
I am always going on about Ursula LeGuin but one of the throughlines in her books is that the real work of the world is taking care of each other, raising children, and behaving rightly, and that wars and fame and conquests are things that destroy that work, or get in its way, and yet those are the things we put in our histories and give honor to. The work that is least compensated, caring for the sick and old and babies, keeping everyone clean and fed and sheltered and comfortable and clothed, is the only thing that keeps the world running, and yet we despise it and despise those that do it. But where would we be if it stopped?
At the same time, it's easy to get a martyr complex when you're a woman, a feeling that you have to sacrifice everything because there is so much need and no one else will. It can make you crazy and ruin your own health.
And the only answer is: men need to step up. You don't have to write Christmas cards or whatever nitpicky thing you hate. But you do have to give a shit about other people, so that the world can keep turning without grinding women up in the process. You need to question whether those around you benefit more from you working 80 hour weeks than they do from you spending time with them. And remember what they have done for you that deserves reciprocation.
posted by emjaybee at 9:27 PM on July 15, 2015 [172 favorites]
The phrase, "Fuck you, pay me" comes to mind...
posted by mikelieman at 9:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 9:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have to say people in the US would be probalby surprised to know that you get a tax credit (paid directly to the mother each month) for having children based on your income, in Canada. My "baby bonus" per month pretty much paid our rent + utilities for almost a decade. It's not nearly enough for the job, but it *is* something and I can't give up Canada to return to the US - knowing between universal healthcare in Ontario plus "baby bonus" we are better off... they even paid me back benefits for the years I wasn't qualified with a SIN (social insurance number, which you use to file taxes) but lived here (having birthed Canadian citizens).
MIdwife services are free here as long as you are a resident of the province... maternity leave is almost a year with more than half your salary paid out plus paternity leave is available. In Quebec there is subsidized daycare for $7 a day. I have to say valuing emotional labor starts with paying mothers directly for the hit that is having children and assisting mothers in getting back to their careers. Canada could definitely do more but Canada is doing better than the US by far in valuing the otherwise unpaid, taken-for-granted work I do every day in raising these citizens.
posted by flex at 9:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [98 favorites]
MIdwife services are free here as long as you are a resident of the province... maternity leave is almost a year with more than half your salary paid out plus paternity leave is available. In Quebec there is subsidized daycare for $7 a day. I have to say valuing emotional labor starts with paying mothers directly for the hit that is having children and assisting mothers in getting back to their careers. Canada could definitely do more but Canada is doing better than the US by far in valuing the otherwise unpaid, taken-for-granted work I do every day in raising these citizens.
posted by flex at 9:28 PM on July 15, 2015 [98 favorites]
#GiveYourMoneyToWomen
posted by nadawi at 9:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:32 PM on July 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
It'd definitely help in the U.S. if we realized that other people's children are the ones who are not only going to be taking care of our needs (medical, legal, etc.) but also the ones whose tax money is going to be paying our Social Security wages. There's been some weird idea that children are a lifestyle choice rather than an economic necessity. Recognizing that women (because women are the ones doing the majority of parenting) are actively contributing to the economy by raising productive citizens would help shift things for the better, I think.
posted by jaguar at 9:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [53 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 9:33 PM on July 15, 2015 [53 favorites]
This article was just what I needed today as I've been pondering over the last week about how sick and tired I am lately at having to tiptoe around men lately at risk of hurting their feelings/egos. At work and in my personal life. I would just like to be straightforward and say things I need to say, things which have literally nothing to do with the men and are in no way a reflection of anything about them, but I can't. Because they'll get defensive and pissy and suddenly I'm the bad person. So I have to expend about 3x more energy and time trying to sugarcoat things and present them in a non-threatening way and I just get so tired of it sometimes.
Sorry if I sound bitter. I'm just awfully tired. I've been taking care of a lot of other people lately, and haven't had much time to take care of myself. It's wearing me thin. I wish I could pay someone to do some emotional labor for me! And by that, I mean, I could use a nice hot meal and a big bouquet of flowers, just because. Better get my butt to the store. Ain't no one else gonna do it for me.
Idea: Women (if they want to) doing emotional labor for other women. Most of us have been taught this shit from birth and are good at it. And (speaking for myself only), I don't mind doing it when it's worth it to me, i.e. when I'm doing it for someone who recognizes it and who I know could and would reciprocate for me if I needed it. That is almost always other women. So, good reminder to me to use my powers in this area in a productive way. I make an effort every day to support, appreciate and recognize other women for all the good work they do and never get recognized for, but I'm going to double down on that. I feel this is actually a pretty productive use of my ongoing frustration with patriarchy in general.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:51 PM on July 15, 2015 [65 favorites]
Sorry if I sound bitter. I'm just awfully tired. I've been taking care of a lot of other people lately, and haven't had much time to take care of myself. It's wearing me thin. I wish I could pay someone to do some emotional labor for me! And by that, I mean, I could use a nice hot meal and a big bouquet of flowers, just because. Better get my butt to the store. Ain't no one else gonna do it for me.
Idea: Women (if they want to) doing emotional labor for other women. Most of us have been taught this shit from birth and are good at it. And (speaking for myself only), I don't mind doing it when it's worth it to me, i.e. when I'm doing it for someone who recognizes it and who I know could and would reciprocate for me if I needed it. That is almost always other women. So, good reminder to me to use my powers in this area in a productive way. I make an effort every day to support, appreciate and recognize other women for all the good work they do and never get recognized for, but I'm going to double down on that. I feel this is actually a pretty productive use of my ongoing frustration with patriarchy in general.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:51 PM on July 15, 2015 [65 favorites]
I teach a college class on gender in which I do a couple of exercises that relate to caring work, unpaid domestic labor, and gender. And I see patterns over and over that are both fascinating and depressing.
In one exercise, I take a family basically out of Arlie Hochschild's The Time Bind, and have the students write an essay role-playing being a counselor to the family. It involves a family of four led by a heterosexual couple who both work full time, and two young children. The father refers to watching his own children as "babysitting," and does little of the housework, so the wife is in a classic second shift situation. And she responds by doing what some in this thread suggest: she confronts her husband, and tries to get him to do more. He experiences this as "nagging," and resists.
What's interesting is that while students universally urge the father to do get off his duff and do more around the house, many also see the mother as contributing to the father's reluctance by "nagging." They believe that her confronting the father and demanding he do more must have been handled poorly. She should be more patient, more kind--and yet more firm, not letting him get away with doing less than half of the domestic labor. So: given a husband who refuses to provide emotional labor, students take the wife to task for failing to perform the emotional labor of convincing him emotional labor is important and she can't do it alone (!). And the standard they expect seems impossibly high--some tightrope balance between inoffensive supportive gentleness, and unyielding firmness. While they think it's unfair that she is burdened with so much paid labor and unpaid housework, the idea that they are demanding she do even more work--emotional labor--doesn't occur to these students, and it's for the classic reason that they don't see it as work, but something she should naturally, instinctively be motivated to do.
posted by DrMew at 10:12 PM on July 15, 2015 [183 favorites]
In one exercise, I take a family basically out of Arlie Hochschild's The Time Bind, and have the students write an essay role-playing being a counselor to the family. It involves a family of four led by a heterosexual couple who both work full time, and two young children. The father refers to watching his own children as "babysitting," and does little of the housework, so the wife is in a classic second shift situation. And she responds by doing what some in this thread suggest: she confronts her husband, and tries to get him to do more. He experiences this as "nagging," and resists.
What's interesting is that while students universally urge the father to do get off his duff and do more around the house, many also see the mother as contributing to the father's reluctance by "nagging." They believe that her confronting the father and demanding he do more must have been handled poorly. She should be more patient, more kind--and yet more firm, not letting him get away with doing less than half of the domestic labor. So: given a husband who refuses to provide emotional labor, students take the wife to task for failing to perform the emotional labor of convincing him emotional labor is important and she can't do it alone (!). And the standard they expect seems impossibly high--some tightrope balance between inoffensive supportive gentleness, and unyielding firmness. While they think it's unfair that she is burdened with so much paid labor and unpaid housework, the idea that they are demanding she do even more work--emotional labor--doesn't occur to these students, and it's for the classic reason that they don't see it as work, but something she should naturally, instinctively be motivated to do.
posted by DrMew at 10:12 PM on July 15, 2015 [183 favorites]
I want to say that a lot of what I'm reading here is making me realize I seriously screwed up some things in my past, and I wouldn't have figured that out without your words.
I sincerely appreciate what all of you have shared.
posted by mikurski at 10:42 PM on July 15, 2015 [86 favorites]
I sincerely appreciate what all of you have shared.
posted by mikurski at 10:42 PM on July 15, 2015 [86 favorites]
GOD the worst thing is that when a dad is doing any kind of childcare everyone's all "oh how sweet are you babysitting today?" NO YOU GOATFUCKING JACKASS IT'S CALLED BEING A FATHER
When my daughter was a few months old, we were visiting a friend for a big celebration and met up with a large group of her family for dinner the night before. Baby needed changing. Husband went to change her. And I swear to God, there was an actual hushed silence, and then people started telling me how great he was. Someone said to me "You've got him well trained, haven't you?" Then the older women made a fuss of him all evening.
It is annoying on the obvious level, that he is getting praised for meeting the most basic criteria of parenting a baby. But it's also annoying to me on a more insidious level because this kind of praise and paying attention takes effort, too, and it's effort that women were making to ensure a man felt good about what he was doing and a woman realised just how lucky she was to be on the receiving end (and obviously this was something he was doing for me, not just for the baby). Layers upon layers of patriarchal bullshit.
posted by Catseye at 11:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [118 favorites]
When my daughter was a few months old, we were visiting a friend for a big celebration and met up with a large group of her family for dinner the night before. Baby needed changing. Husband went to change her. And I swear to God, there was an actual hushed silence, and then people started telling me how great he was. Someone said to me "You've got him well trained, haven't you?" Then the older women made a fuss of him all evening.
It is annoying on the obvious level, that he is getting praised for meeting the most basic criteria of parenting a baby. But it's also annoying to me on a more insidious level because this kind of praise and paying attention takes effort, too, and it's effort that women were making to ensure a man felt good about what he was doing and a woman realised just how lucky she was to be on the receiving end (and obviously this was something he was doing for me, not just for the baby). Layers upon layers of patriarchal bullshit.
posted by Catseye at 11:37 PM on July 15, 2015 [118 favorites]
This thread has been really valuable (like zillions of others over the years). It's become clear to me over the past few years that I really and deeply screwed up important relationships, especially romantic ones, through these kinds of typically patriarchal behaviors. The discussion here is helping me understand more clearly how numerous behavioral inequities that I have long recognized relate to one another as well as pointing to concrete ways that I can stop taking advantage of the way that emotional labor "as if by magic" has a tendency to fall to my partner by default unless I recognize the issue and make an effort. In particular I want to thank people who've discussed imbalances in emotional labor in the context of basically successful, loving relationships. When one is raised to be conveniently clueless about these things one has to be taught to clue oneself in. These sorts of threads help me to be a better partner and to understand that when I try to be a good feminist, supporting abortion rights and equal pay, using non-discriminatory language, calling out misogynistic behavior, etc., are in many ways superficial, easy, and small compared to restructuring my approach to intimate relationships.
I have a question about the discussion of emotional labor in the initial article, because this thread has (as far as I can see) diverged from it quite a bit.
In this thread, most of the discussion has been about emotional labor in romantic relationships, where it encompasses the expectation that women take responsibility for their partner's social life as well as a variety of domestic tasks. The solution, neatly put in emjaybee's comment, is to learn to be aware and distribute these duties more equitably. Most feminist men are aware that equitably distributing housework is a necessary feminist task, but many somehow ignore the challenges of fairly parceling out emotional labor.
The article discusses two rather different kinds of emotional labor. One is the demands of strangers or acquaintances on women's attention and kindness, something that seems obviously reprehensible. The other is the work of listening to and counseling one's close friends who are not romantic partners. Perhaps Zimmerman would tell me that I am starting down the road of "because reasons" when I object to the idea that friendship should be commodified, and, sure, I recognize that this is a thought experiment and that she's not sincerely proposing that you should offer to pay your friends after they listen to you complain. However, it seems like what she's discussing is just half of normal friendship, which has two basic components: doing things together and talking. Even though she says she wouldn't charge her friends, the clear implication of this section is that the expectations her male friends place on her conversationally are non-reciprocal, and that this is built into standard male behavior under patriarchy.
Here I'm confirming her when she writes that "people are disturbed by the very notion that someone would charge, or pay, for friendly support." But, for instance, people aren't disturbed by the fact that people pay therapists. The conflation of offering emotional support and sex work seems to me where some sleight of hand happens, since in the case of sex work the prohibition on taking money is truly arbitrary and discriminatory. It's not the idea of paying for friendly emotional support that's disturbing, but the idea that friendship would take on this sort of transactional form. If my partner told me that really I should be paying her $500 every time we had sex because our sex has value, my attitudes about whether paid sex work should exist or not would seem irrelevant to my response. The whole idea of friendship is that it's a social structure separated from politics and markets. As such, when she says that talking to her friends has monetary value, that sounds to me like she's either saying that these people are not really her friends because she resents them too much or that our current social structures make the demands men make of their female friends make friendship just one more form of work. Perhaps it's the predictable consequence of the fact that women are expected to perform so much free labor in other ways that something like this that sounds to my male-conditioned brain like part of a legitimately separate system of exchange tends to feel like just one more uncompensated service to a woman.
If the system of reciprocity is inherently broken, how can I tell when I'm making unfair emotional demands on a friend? I mean, obviously there are many social cues, but while I'm always trying to learn better how not to be boorish, this sounds like something different. What does the sort of emotional labor that men ask women to perform in friendships look like in the context of friendships that, like many of the marriages discussed in this thread, are mostly good and loving?
posted by vathek at 1:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
I have a question about the discussion of emotional labor in the initial article, because this thread has (as far as I can see) diverged from it quite a bit.
In this thread, most of the discussion has been about emotional labor in romantic relationships, where it encompasses the expectation that women take responsibility for their partner's social life as well as a variety of domestic tasks. The solution, neatly put in emjaybee's comment, is to learn to be aware and distribute these duties more equitably. Most feminist men are aware that equitably distributing housework is a necessary feminist task, but many somehow ignore the challenges of fairly parceling out emotional labor.
The article discusses two rather different kinds of emotional labor. One is the demands of strangers or acquaintances on women's attention and kindness, something that seems obviously reprehensible. The other is the work of listening to and counseling one's close friends who are not romantic partners. Perhaps Zimmerman would tell me that I am starting down the road of "because reasons" when I object to the idea that friendship should be commodified, and, sure, I recognize that this is a thought experiment and that she's not sincerely proposing that you should offer to pay your friends after they listen to you complain. However, it seems like what she's discussing is just half of normal friendship, which has two basic components: doing things together and talking. Even though she says she wouldn't charge her friends, the clear implication of this section is that the expectations her male friends place on her conversationally are non-reciprocal, and that this is built into standard male behavior under patriarchy.
Here I'm confirming her when she writes that "people are disturbed by the very notion that someone would charge, or pay, for friendly support." But, for instance, people aren't disturbed by the fact that people pay therapists. The conflation of offering emotional support and sex work seems to me where some sleight of hand happens, since in the case of sex work the prohibition on taking money is truly arbitrary and discriminatory. It's not the idea of paying for friendly emotional support that's disturbing, but the idea that friendship would take on this sort of transactional form. If my partner told me that really I should be paying her $500 every time we had sex because our sex has value, my attitudes about whether paid sex work should exist or not would seem irrelevant to my response. The whole idea of friendship is that it's a social structure separated from politics and markets. As such, when she says that talking to her friends has monetary value, that sounds to me like she's either saying that these people are not really her friends because she resents them too much or that our current social structures make the demands men make of their female friends make friendship just one more form of work. Perhaps it's the predictable consequence of the fact that women are expected to perform so much free labor in other ways that something like this that sounds to my male-conditioned brain like part of a legitimately separate system of exchange tends to feel like just one more uncompensated service to a woman.
If the system of reciprocity is inherently broken, how can I tell when I'm making unfair emotional demands on a friend? I mean, obviously there are many social cues, but while I'm always trying to learn better how not to be boorish, this sounds like something different. What does the sort of emotional labor that men ask women to perform in friendships look like in the context of friendships that, like many of the marriages discussed in this thread, are mostly good and loving?
posted by vathek at 1:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thank you to everyone who has added something here. I'm male, feminist, and I think I'm fortunate in that I haven't been hit as hard with the patriarchy stick in this area as I have in others - but I'm far from perfect.
It's really, really valuable to hear women's stories on this and every other feminist issue because they're so often stories from a world totally foreign to most men. You can see in some of the responses how easy it is for men to not even see what goes on in the world around them, because they've never had to pay attention. They've never been held responsible for sustaining relationships in the same way that women have. It's exactly why some men don't get the problem with street harassment (they've never paid attention to the relentless demands on a woman's time and appearance), the problem with workplace sexism (they've never noticed that their male boss treats them differently), online harassment (they've never been abused for speaking an opinion), etc.
I only realised there was more to the world when I started listening to women explaining again and again how their reality is fundamentally different, and that the fact that I hadn't noticed was a blissful ignorance bestowed on me by the same system that screws us up in so many ways. Until that realisation, it's so easy to think women are exaggerating, or simply failing to see some obvious solution ('Just stop sending Christmas cards!'). I wish it wasn't this way, but it took a huge volume of women's stories before the penny dropped that they weren't just discussing isolated things.
So thank you. It must be hugely frustrating to get the same clueless responses, time and time again, from guys who just don't see that these things are more than individual flaws in need of correction. I promise that I find it immensely useful, and that I use these stories and experiences to help myself be a better man and a better feminist, and I'm sure many other men do too.
posted by twirlypen at 2:42 AM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
It's really, really valuable to hear women's stories on this and every other feminist issue because they're so often stories from a world totally foreign to most men. You can see in some of the responses how easy it is for men to not even see what goes on in the world around them, because they've never had to pay attention. They've never been held responsible for sustaining relationships in the same way that women have. It's exactly why some men don't get the problem with street harassment (they've never paid attention to the relentless demands on a woman's time and appearance), the problem with workplace sexism (they've never noticed that their male boss treats them differently), online harassment (they've never been abused for speaking an opinion), etc.
I only realised there was more to the world when I started listening to women explaining again and again how their reality is fundamentally different, and that the fact that I hadn't noticed was a blissful ignorance bestowed on me by the same system that screws us up in so many ways. Until that realisation, it's so easy to think women are exaggerating, or simply failing to see some obvious solution ('Just stop sending Christmas cards!'). I wish it wasn't this way, but it took a huge volume of women's stories before the penny dropped that they weren't just discussing isolated things.
So thank you. It must be hugely frustrating to get the same clueless responses, time and time again, from guys who just don't see that these things are more than individual flaws in need of correction. I promise that I find it immensely useful, and that I use these stories and experiences to help myself be a better man and a better feminist, and I'm sure many other men do too.
posted by twirlypen at 2:42 AM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
What does "meet in the middle" look like to you if it does not include women performing less and men performing more?
The emotional work is what is needed for a civilised society; the real solution is to value it as highly as it is truly needed and acknowledge, validate, and compensate people who perform emotional labour.
I think I was suggesting that the sum total of society-wide emotional labor could be substantially reduced before then being equitably distributed between men and women. Some sorts of emotional labor are inescapable (soothing that crying child, helping that elder with their taxes), but frankly a lot of other ones feel a bit like make-work (even down to the therapeutic hearing-out of other people's (men and women's) woes at great psychoanalytic length, which does not seem like a culturally universal need that people have always had).
I guess I'm saying that a society where my husband pays me for writing Christmas cards, reminding him to Skype with his mom, buying end-of-year presents for the teacher and keeping track of the kids' funny dress days at school doesn't seem like a great solution for me. At present, I would kind of rather he just did his half of it. But even better would be if there wasn't the expectation that anyone did any of it, because these tasks-- absolutely not necessary for a civilized society-- didn't exist. And 95% of the time, it seems as though the expectation that any relationship will be encrusted with all of these elaborate, labor-intensive interactions, as well as the punishment and judgment if one defaults in them, comes from other women.
I'd argue that the heroic ethos that grows up around emotional work-- look at how much I care!-- stands to harm women just as much as it helps them here.
posted by Bardolph at 4:00 AM on July 16, 2015 [25 favorites]
The emotional work is what is needed for a civilised society; the real solution is to value it as highly as it is truly needed and acknowledge, validate, and compensate people who perform emotional labour.
I think I was suggesting that the sum total of society-wide emotional labor could be substantially reduced before then being equitably distributed between men and women. Some sorts of emotional labor are inescapable (soothing that crying child, helping that elder with their taxes), but frankly a lot of other ones feel a bit like make-work (even down to the therapeutic hearing-out of other people's (men and women's) woes at great psychoanalytic length, which does not seem like a culturally universal need that people have always had).
I guess I'm saying that a society where my husband pays me for writing Christmas cards, reminding him to Skype with his mom, buying end-of-year presents for the teacher and keeping track of the kids' funny dress days at school doesn't seem like a great solution for me. At present, I would kind of rather he just did his half of it. But even better would be if there wasn't the expectation that anyone did any of it, because these tasks-- absolutely not necessary for a civilized society-- didn't exist. And 95% of the time, it seems as though the expectation that any relationship will be encrusted with all of these elaborate, labor-intensive interactions, as well as the punishment and judgment if one defaults in them, comes from other women.
I'd argue that the heroic ethos that grows up around emotional work-- look at how much I care!-- stands to harm women just as much as it helps them here.
posted by Bardolph at 4:00 AM on July 16, 2015 [25 favorites]
I would just like to be straightforward and say things I need to say, things which have literally nothing to do with the men and are in no way a reflection of anything about them, but I can't. Because they'll get defensive and pissy and suddenly I'm the bad person. So I have to expend about 3x more energy and time trying to sugarcoat things and present them in a non-threatening way and I just get so tired of it sometimes.
Oh yes ugh. At work yesterday I stepped in it when this dynamic played out because in the conversation I forgot to play this game.
I will title this little story, 'Cheesy Patriarchy
The plant manager brought a bunch of food into our office made with this new cheese he was trying out and asked us to try it.
We did. It had problems. It was chewy and rubbery. 'Like chewing on a bicycle tire' as one woman described it. No biggie. It was a tester. Just needs some recipe adjustment. So the COO comes in a bit later (my direct boss) and asks us how we liked the cheese.
The grimacing faces that responded with the comments set him off into a spiel about how he really liked it and blah blah blah explaining why we were wrong and how this was going to be a great product and when we said well it's not something that we'd buy and if we got a burger with it on it we would send it back because it was so rubbery.' We tried to discuss the good parts (high protein) but that increasing the fat to find the non rubbery point of good enough was an idea and it would still be 'low fat' relative to regular cheese but no any suggestions just caused a repeat of parts of the spiel and more and more defensive tone and body language.
"You three are tough critics," he said. "Well maybe you've just been too spoiled by having good cheese. Well maybe this is why you don't like it." Then a bunch of explaining away using all sorts of reasons that our opinions were of less value. Because gosh durn it you all are gonna like this cheese and gosh durnit stop being so critical because for some reason I can't separate people not liking the cheese and my ego. I like the cheese dammit and well...I like this cheese. Stop hurting me.
It was ridiculous. He wouldn't shut up. We apparently really needed to like this cheese.
I finally said, "Look you asked for our opinion. We could tell you what you want to hear but then that would be lying and I won't lie about something so basic as liking or not liking some cheese."
One of the other women, "And I won't lie because I only want good products to be made by us and my opinion is that this product isn't good like it's been made."
Boss man. Now even more not happy.
Conversation ended and one annoyed boss who couldn't handle people not liking and standing up about not liking the new cheese he is championing left the room.
(emotional labor part)
He really was pissed. Oh dear went the room. Discussion about his reaction and whether it was our fault and wow did he seem to take that person ensues. One of the other women wondered if maybe we should do something about him being pissed. Apologize maybe? Smooth it over. Stroke the ego a bit.
"Fuck no," I said. "We didn't like the goddamn cheese. All we did was explain why. I'm not apologizing for not liking this fucking rubbery cheese. He's a big boy. He can deal with us not liking his stupid cheese on his own. He'll survive."
Me and other women agree and go on with our day.
This cheese saga will continue though.
We're going to be shown how wrong we are about the cheese by how well it will sell apparently. Best-seller apparently. Uh huh, sure and to be honest dude we really don't care one way or another. If you are right and it sells well bully for you and the company.
We still aren't going to like the cheese.
posted by Jalliah at 4:44 AM on July 16, 2015 [228 favorites]
Oh yes ugh. At work yesterday I stepped in it when this dynamic played out because in the conversation I forgot to play this game.
I will title this little story, 'Cheesy Patriarchy
The plant manager brought a bunch of food into our office made with this new cheese he was trying out and asked us to try it.
We did. It had problems. It was chewy and rubbery. 'Like chewing on a bicycle tire' as one woman described it. No biggie. It was a tester. Just needs some recipe adjustment. So the COO comes in a bit later (my direct boss) and asks us how we liked the cheese.
The grimacing faces that responded with the comments set him off into a spiel about how he really liked it and blah blah blah explaining why we were wrong and how this was going to be a great product and when we said well it's not something that we'd buy and if we got a burger with it on it we would send it back because it was so rubbery.' We tried to discuss the good parts (high protein) but that increasing the fat to find the non rubbery point of good enough was an idea and it would still be 'low fat' relative to regular cheese but no any suggestions just caused a repeat of parts of the spiel and more and more defensive tone and body language.
"You three are tough critics," he said. "Well maybe you've just been too spoiled by having good cheese. Well maybe this is why you don't like it." Then a bunch of explaining away using all sorts of reasons that our opinions were of less value. Because gosh durn it you all are gonna like this cheese and gosh durnit stop being so critical because for some reason I can't separate people not liking the cheese and my ego. I like the cheese dammit and well...I like this cheese. Stop hurting me.
It was ridiculous. He wouldn't shut up. We apparently really needed to like this cheese.
I finally said, "Look you asked for our opinion. We could tell you what you want to hear but then that would be lying and I won't lie about something so basic as liking or not liking some cheese."
One of the other women, "And I won't lie because I only want good products to be made by us and my opinion is that this product isn't good like it's been made."
Boss man. Now even more not happy.
Conversation ended and one annoyed boss who couldn't handle people not liking and standing up about not liking the new cheese he is championing left the room.
(emotional labor part)
He really was pissed. Oh dear went the room. Discussion about his reaction and whether it was our fault and wow did he seem to take that person ensues. One of the other women wondered if maybe we should do something about him being pissed. Apologize maybe? Smooth it over. Stroke the ego a bit.
"Fuck no," I said. "We didn't like the goddamn cheese. All we did was explain why. I'm not apologizing for not liking this fucking rubbery cheese. He's a big boy. He can deal with us not liking his stupid cheese on his own. He'll survive."
Me and other women agree and go on with our day.
This cheese saga will continue though.
We're going to be shown how wrong we are about the cheese by how well it will sell apparently. Best-seller apparently. Uh huh, sure and to be honest dude we really don't care one way or another. If you are right and it sells well bully for you and the company.
We still aren't going to like the cheese.
posted by Jalliah at 4:44 AM on July 16, 2015 [228 favorites]
For heaven's sake, judging by some of the reactions you would think that instead of modestly proposing women actually charge for the emotional labour that is routinely demanded of us but not acknowledged as valuable (if acknowledged at all), it was suggested that we should start eating children or something.
posted by moody cow at 4:50 AM on July 16, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by moody cow at 4:50 AM on July 16, 2015 [14 favorites]
This thread reminds me somewhat of the work that private bankers do for wealthy people. It's been described to me as "emotional concierge" - the actual money stuff is 10-20%, and the rest is reassuring them about their decisions, knowing their family and personal issues, arranging personal crap like birthday presents and tickets, and listening to them endlessly. It's understood that you're being paid to make your client happy, because the actual financial service you provide is replaceable and minor. Surprisingly, the female private bankers I know tend to be pretty tough outside of work - they won't put up with it if they're not getting paid either.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:05 AM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:05 AM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
What does the sort of emotional labor that men ask women to perform in friendships look like in the context of friendships that, like many of the marriages discussed in this thread, are mostly good and loving?
I have good and loving relationships with my male friends. There still seems to be a fundamental disconnect between my male friends and relatives and my female ones, in that the women tend to consciously run through the needs and desires of others all the time, and it doesn't even seem to cross the men's minds to do so. Women are trained to take the needs and desires of others into account -- which is how we learn to remember people's birthdays, to check in on friends who aren't feeling well, to make periodic contact to stay in touch, to make sure the stranger next to us on the subway has enough space, to make sure we don't cut someone in line, etc. When this is pointed out to the men, the response is not "Maybe I could be more thoughtful," it's "Well that's dumb and a waste of your time" (very much like the birthday cards discussion).
I think this is a key to a lack of reciprocity I see in my (good and loving) relationships with my male friends. If you asked them, they'd say they loved me very much. But without facebook reminders hardly any of them would remember, let alone acknowledge, my birthday. When a couple friend of ours had the friend group's first baby, they made no effort to do any sort of congratulations, it all came from the (many fewer) women in the group. If you asked them why, it was because *they personally* didn't care that much -- how the new parents would feel didn't enter into their analysis. I had a very close male friend threaten to end our friendship after I failed to call and check in on his feelings once the girl he had been stringing along "casually" for months got tired of this treatment and ended it -- and this is during the same period that I was going through some turbulent romantic times myself. He managed to say this with a straight face even when I pointed out he hadn't once asked me how I was doing. None of our mutual male friends got called out by him in this way. Because they weren't expected to do this work and I was.
Which is why assigning monetary (instead of just emotional) value to these kinds of tasks would immediately make obvious (1) who is doing most of the work; and (2) whether or not they admit it, even the people who don't perform it do value emotional labor when it's focused on them.
posted by sallybrown at 5:08 AM on July 16, 2015 [84 favorites]
I have good and loving relationships with my male friends. There still seems to be a fundamental disconnect between my male friends and relatives and my female ones, in that the women tend to consciously run through the needs and desires of others all the time, and it doesn't even seem to cross the men's minds to do so. Women are trained to take the needs and desires of others into account -- which is how we learn to remember people's birthdays, to check in on friends who aren't feeling well, to make periodic contact to stay in touch, to make sure the stranger next to us on the subway has enough space, to make sure we don't cut someone in line, etc. When this is pointed out to the men, the response is not "Maybe I could be more thoughtful," it's "Well that's dumb and a waste of your time" (very much like the birthday cards discussion).
I think this is a key to a lack of reciprocity I see in my (good and loving) relationships with my male friends. If you asked them, they'd say they loved me very much. But without facebook reminders hardly any of them would remember, let alone acknowledge, my birthday. When a couple friend of ours had the friend group's first baby, they made no effort to do any sort of congratulations, it all came from the (many fewer) women in the group. If you asked them why, it was because *they personally* didn't care that much -- how the new parents would feel didn't enter into their analysis. I had a very close male friend threaten to end our friendship after I failed to call and check in on his feelings once the girl he had been stringing along "casually" for months got tired of this treatment and ended it -- and this is during the same period that I was going through some turbulent romantic times myself. He managed to say this with a straight face even when I pointed out he hadn't once asked me how I was doing. None of our mutual male friends got called out by him in this way. Because they weren't expected to do this work and I was.
Which is why assigning monetary (instead of just emotional) value to these kinds of tasks would immediately make obvious (1) who is doing most of the work; and (2) whether or not they admit it, even the people who don't perform it do value emotional labor when it's focused on them.
posted by sallybrown at 5:08 AM on July 16, 2015 [84 favorites]
I decided recently that if the proposed solution to a problem is that I have to stop having standards and boundaries, they no longer get to negotiate. It's now my way because they have shown a critical inability to understand the situation or to treat me as an independent actor capable of rational thought.
Also, you're an idiot if you think making the choice to walk away isn't emotional labour in and of itself. Not playing the game costs as much as playing it sometimes.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:10 AM on July 16, 2015 [91 favorites]
Also, you're an idiot if you think making the choice to walk away isn't emotional labour in and of itself. Not playing the game costs as much as playing it sometimes.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:10 AM on July 16, 2015 [91 favorites]
There is one circumstance in which I see my male friends fully engaging in emotional labor without bring prompted to: when they're trying to sleep with a particular woman.
posted by sallybrown at 5:24 AM on July 16, 2015 [108 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 5:24 AM on July 16, 2015 [108 favorites]
Emotional labor expected of women, as explained by MeFites:
he can't imagine that I wouldn't revel in listening to him recount a play by play of office drama. He also takes for granted that I'll arrange all social events involving other people, maintain familiar relations with our families and be open and supporting to him. But he's not responsible for inviting his mom to Mother's day because that's my job.
it is taking care of someone else's emotional needs without having your needs even acknowledged. It is sitting down to lunch and having your friend tell you a long story about themselves, expecting you to interject with suggestions and kind words, for forty minutes before they even ask you how you are doing. It is the expectation that if you want something nice - say, someone to plan a weekend away, or to have pretty flowers around that make you feel special, or for someone to think of you when they are at the grocery store and to pick up dinner for you as well - you should do it your damn self. It's the expectation that you will walk away from an argument feeling low, after apologizing, without getting an apology in return, and that you'll be all smiles when they're ready to engage again after stonewalling you.
I feel pressured to validate a man's ego
Christmas cards ... I spent years keeping addresses current, buying cards, writing the notes, addressing and stamping the cards, keeping track of who sent a card and who must get one in return
Why is it MY job to keep track of my husband's mother's birthday ... Worse, why does my MIL get mad at ME when he forgets her birthday? Because the whole WORLD expects me to be the birthday rememberer!
Actually, the one that annoys me is Christmas presents, because it's fucking exhausting to think of presents for him, our kids, and all the members of my large extended family.
Caring about all the moving parts required to feed the occupants at dinnertime, caring about social management. Caring about noticing that something has changed - like, it's not there anymore, or it's on fire, or it's broken.
women relatives keeping family and friend relationships strong ... Sending Christmas cards, get well cards, birthday presents for family and friends, telephone calls just to check up, etc.)
sending cards, calls on significant dates, keeping the kitchen floor reasonably clean, keeping a house healthy and comfortable to live in, arranging play dates for children
recognize a family member's birthday/rite of passage/holiday
sending cards, buying presents, arranging playdates, wrapping gifts, talking to teachers, cleaning up vomit, teaching table manners, decorating the living room, choosing the plates, etc. etc. etc.
you're phoning them or bringing over flowers for their big occasions or sharing recipes with them or shopping and sending them gifts for Christmas and sending them thank you notes for the gifts they sent you.
every birthday invitation, every teacher email, every playdate invite, every Wacky Hair Day or Wear the Regalia of Your Favorite Sports Team Day email. ... Suddenly, he was in charge of managing our daughter's social life and school interactions.
manage not only her own social-emotional health but her husband's
The kids can all be out in the street playing because there are a lot of stay at home moms, and the older kids (10-14) are OK being left home alone because there are moms on the street during the afternoon. The women plan the block parties. The women rent the movies. The women arrange the dinners to people who just had a new baby, or whose spouse just died.
automatically expected to step up in situations like an elderly relative needing in-home care or support or company, a niece or nephew needing a last-minute babysitter or someone other than a parent to attend a school play, hosting a holiday event or reunion, visiting someone in a hospital, providing goodies for a playdate, mending fences between arguing parties or keeping lines of communication open, etc., etc., etc.
birthday celebrations, holiday gifts, cocktail party planning, dinner party invites, sending cards and notes, making social calls, making doctor and dentist appointments, keeping the family social calendar, checking the children's homework, etc.
Why did he need me to prompt him and schedule him?
it's the cards, and the presents and the phone calls and the thank you notes and the dinner reservations and the babysitter and the laundry and the dry cleaning and the doctor's appts and the vitamins and the groceries and the garden and the kitchen floor and the toilet paper and the 99,999 other things that mostly women end up doing
the heavy lifting of cleaning up after everyone and making everyone comfortable and taking care of everyone's needs
other woman expected all these little cards and emails and presents and check-ins
caring for the sick and old and babies, keeping everyone clean and fed and sheltered and comfortable and clothed
I have to expend about 3x more energy and time trying to sugarcoat things and present them in a non-threatening way
If we go somewhere for a social occassion I am looked at weirdly if I would rather stand with the men and talk about, stuff, rather than stand with the women and talk about kids and houses and shopping. And who was expected to remember to bring a bottle of wine/dessert/bunch of flowers to the hosts of that party? I get dirty looks if I don't start taking in the left over plates and cups to the kitchen when the party starts breaking up, rather than standing still talking with the men ... expected to make coffee for visitors and take notes at meetings
Discussion about his reaction and whether it was our fault and wow did he seem to take that person ensues. One of the other women wondered if maybe we should do something about him being pissed. Apologize maybe? Smooth it over. Stroke the ego a bit.
I had a very close male friend threaten to end our friendship after I failed to call and check in on his feelings once the girl he had been stringing along "casually" for months got tired of this treatment and ended it
WidgetAlley: The fact that this male person thought that simply not doing emotional work was an option for a functioning adult human being that in any capacity that ever interacts with other people, or even with himself in a healthy way, fucking staggered me.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:31 AM on July 16, 2015 [96 favorites]
he can't imagine that I wouldn't revel in listening to him recount a play by play of office drama. He also takes for granted that I'll arrange all social events involving other people, maintain familiar relations with our families and be open and supporting to him. But he's not responsible for inviting his mom to Mother's day because that's my job.
it is taking care of someone else's emotional needs without having your needs even acknowledged. It is sitting down to lunch and having your friend tell you a long story about themselves, expecting you to interject with suggestions and kind words, for forty minutes before they even ask you how you are doing. It is the expectation that if you want something nice - say, someone to plan a weekend away, or to have pretty flowers around that make you feel special, or for someone to think of you when they are at the grocery store and to pick up dinner for you as well - you should do it your damn self. It's the expectation that you will walk away from an argument feeling low, after apologizing, without getting an apology in return, and that you'll be all smiles when they're ready to engage again after stonewalling you.
I feel pressured to validate a man's ego
Christmas cards ... I spent years keeping addresses current, buying cards, writing the notes, addressing and stamping the cards, keeping track of who sent a card and who must get one in return
Why is it MY job to keep track of my husband's mother's birthday ... Worse, why does my MIL get mad at ME when he forgets her birthday? Because the whole WORLD expects me to be the birthday rememberer!
Actually, the one that annoys me is Christmas presents, because it's fucking exhausting to think of presents for him, our kids, and all the members of my large extended family.
Caring about all the moving parts required to feed the occupants at dinnertime, caring about social management. Caring about noticing that something has changed - like, it's not there anymore, or it's on fire, or it's broken.
women relatives keeping family and friend relationships strong ... Sending Christmas cards, get well cards, birthday presents for family and friends, telephone calls just to check up, etc.)
sending cards, calls on significant dates, keeping the kitchen floor reasonably clean, keeping a house healthy and comfortable to live in, arranging play dates for children
recognize a family member's birthday/rite of passage/holiday
sending cards, buying presents, arranging playdates, wrapping gifts, talking to teachers, cleaning up vomit, teaching table manners, decorating the living room, choosing the plates, etc. etc. etc.
you're phoning them or bringing over flowers for their big occasions or sharing recipes with them or shopping and sending them gifts for Christmas and sending them thank you notes for the gifts they sent you.
every birthday invitation, every teacher email, every playdate invite, every Wacky Hair Day or Wear the Regalia of Your Favorite Sports Team Day email. ... Suddenly, he was in charge of managing our daughter's social life and school interactions.
manage not only her own social-emotional health but her husband's
The kids can all be out in the street playing because there are a lot of stay at home moms, and the older kids (10-14) are OK being left home alone because there are moms on the street during the afternoon. The women plan the block parties. The women rent the movies. The women arrange the dinners to people who just had a new baby, or whose spouse just died.
automatically expected to step up in situations like an elderly relative needing in-home care or support or company, a niece or nephew needing a last-minute babysitter or someone other than a parent to attend a school play, hosting a holiday event or reunion, visiting someone in a hospital, providing goodies for a playdate, mending fences between arguing parties or keeping lines of communication open, etc., etc., etc.
birthday celebrations, holiday gifts, cocktail party planning, dinner party invites, sending cards and notes, making social calls, making doctor and dentist appointments, keeping the family social calendar, checking the children's homework, etc.
Why did he need me to prompt him and schedule him?
it's the cards, and the presents and the phone calls and the thank you notes and the dinner reservations and the babysitter and the laundry and the dry cleaning and the doctor's appts and the vitamins and the groceries and the garden and the kitchen floor and the toilet paper and the 99,999 other things that mostly women end up doing
the heavy lifting of cleaning up after everyone and making everyone comfortable and taking care of everyone's needs
other woman expected all these little cards and emails and presents and check-ins
caring for the sick and old and babies, keeping everyone clean and fed and sheltered and comfortable and clothed
I have to expend about 3x more energy and time trying to sugarcoat things and present them in a non-threatening way
If we go somewhere for a social occassion I am looked at weirdly if I would rather stand with the men and talk about, stuff, rather than stand with the women and talk about kids and houses and shopping. And who was expected to remember to bring a bottle of wine/dessert/bunch of flowers to the hosts of that party? I get dirty looks if I don't start taking in the left over plates and cups to the kitchen when the party starts breaking up, rather than standing still talking with the men ... expected to make coffee for visitors and take notes at meetings
Discussion about his reaction and whether it was our fault and wow did he seem to take that person ensues. One of the other women wondered if maybe we should do something about him being pissed. Apologize maybe? Smooth it over. Stroke the ego a bit.
I had a very close male friend threaten to end our friendship after I failed to call and check in on his feelings once the girl he had been stringing along "casually" for months got tired of this treatment and ended it
WidgetAlley: The fact that this male person thought that simply not doing emotional work was an option for a functioning adult human being that in any capacity that ever interacts with other people, or even with himself in a healthy way, fucking staggered me.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:31 AM on July 16, 2015 [96 favorites]
This whole discussion has been very enlightening, because it has given me vocabulary to voice all my issues around this.
I have a very low tolerance for this, and always have done. I don't want to do this emotional labour, and never have, but I do it because its part of what you have to do. I'm not very good at all parts of it. So when I meet men, generally in house sharing situations, who act like their other female housemates should be a combination of their mother (keep house) and the cool girl archetype (be like one of the guys so we can be friends!!!), or who know just enough of what to do to get the kudos but not have to expel any of the effort, I want to have nothing to do with them.
I've been away for the last three weeks house sitting for some friends. Its been great. I come back yesterday and even though my housemates weren't in, I got immediately angry because my being away for three weeks meant NOTHING had been done. There was no toilet paper left. The living room was full of dried washing that no one could be bothered to put away. The recycling hadn't been touched. My male housemate has still not paid me for three months of electricity bills, because I insist on emailing him or texting him to remind him when its convenient for me, and not when its convenient for him.
It is this emotional bullshit that is why I am sure that paying twice my rent on a one bedroom flat will be more than worth it.
posted by litereally at 5:34 AM on July 16, 2015 [34 favorites]
I have a very low tolerance for this, and always have done. I don't want to do this emotional labour, and never have, but I do it because its part of what you have to do. I'm not very good at all parts of it. So when I meet men, generally in house sharing situations, who act like their other female housemates should be a combination of their mother (keep house) and the cool girl archetype (be like one of the guys so we can be friends!!!), or who know just enough of what to do to get the kudos but not have to expel any of the effort, I want to have nothing to do with them.
I've been away for the last three weeks house sitting for some friends. Its been great. I come back yesterday and even though my housemates weren't in, I got immediately angry because my being away for three weeks meant NOTHING had been done. There was no toilet paper left. The living room was full of dried washing that no one could be bothered to put away. The recycling hadn't been touched. My male housemate has still not paid me for three months of electricity bills, because I insist on emailing him or texting him to remind him when its convenient for me, and not when its convenient for him.
It is this emotional bullshit that is why I am sure that paying twice my rent on a one bedroom flat will be more than worth it.
posted by litereally at 5:34 AM on July 16, 2015 [34 favorites]
Now I can't stop thinking what the world would be like if men started treating everyone with the same care and concern they show women they're trying to get into bed.
posted by sallybrown at 5:37 AM on July 16, 2015 [76 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 5:37 AM on July 16, 2015 [76 favorites]
Remember in Her how Joaquin Phoenix's occupation was to compose personalized messages on letters and cards? I could imagine a subscription service where you give out your contact list and every time a holiday rolls around cards get sent to people on the list. Maybe you can add your own details or have 'em first sent over to your own house to sign them.
Outside of the bounds of science fiction, who do you think would actually be doing this work? Do you think it would actually make emotional labor less gendered and more equitable, or do you think it might just wind up outsourcing the work to other, less visible women? Like how in AskMes where a woman is trying to figure out how to get her male partner how to stop slacking in the housework department, there's always at least one dude (and usually more than that) who tells the woman to just tamp down her objections and hire a housekeeper. Problem solved! There's zero acknowledgment of the fact that hiring a housekeeper does nothing to solve the actual problem, it just outsources it to another woman. Another underpaid woman, no less.
Which reminds me of this excellent post by flex from last year -- men as feminist allies -- along with this eminently quotable comment by MonkeyToes, which is largely about gendered inequity in housework but can also be read in the light of gendered inequity in emotional labor: Folks, there are no motherfucking gnomes. (I swear to god, every time I clean the toilet, I hear a voice in my head reminding me that my efforts are necessary because Bartleby is still sitting there effectively saying, "I prefer not to.")
We don't need to outsource this work to other women, we need men to step their game up.
posted by divined by radio at 5:45 AM on July 16, 2015 [78 favorites]
Outside of the bounds of science fiction, who do you think would actually be doing this work? Do you think it would actually make emotional labor less gendered and more equitable, or do you think it might just wind up outsourcing the work to other, less visible women? Like how in AskMes where a woman is trying to figure out how to get her male partner how to stop slacking in the housework department, there's always at least one dude (and usually more than that) who tells the woman to just tamp down her objections and hire a housekeeper. Problem solved! There's zero acknowledgment of the fact that hiring a housekeeper does nothing to solve the actual problem, it just outsources it to another woman. Another underpaid woman, no less.
Which reminds me of this excellent post by flex from last year -- men as feminist allies -- along with this eminently quotable comment by MonkeyToes, which is largely about gendered inequity in housework but can also be read in the light of gendered inequity in emotional labor: Folks, there are no motherfucking gnomes. (I swear to god, every time I clean the toilet, I hear a voice in my head reminding me that my efforts are necessary because Bartleby is still sitting there effectively saying, "I prefer not to.")
We don't need to outsource this work to other women, we need men to step their game up.
posted by divined by radio at 5:45 AM on July 16, 2015 [78 favorites]
So, two months ago my boyfriend and I went to a nearby beach for a two-week vacation. His family has been going to that beach for vacation ever since he was tiny, so his dad and his sister and his aunt and uncle wanted to come visit. And he asked me if that would be okay, and I told him it would, so he invited them and organized all of the plans for who was coming and when and for how long (which makes sense, because it was his family).
But the oddest thing happened when those family members arrived for a visit: all of a sudden, I was the host, not him. I was the one making tea or fetching water, setting the table, adjusting the thermostat, making space for their stuff in the bathroom. He and his sister had an argument, and so I ended up being the one having brunch with her and her kids the next day, trying to smooth things over, while he went for a walk. When his dad came to visit for the day (they don't get along very well) I ended up entertaining him for an hour while my boyfriend went running, because although his dad is kind of a pain in the neck, he also seemed a bit lonely. When we went walking with his elderly aunt, I was the one keeping an eye on her and making the suggestion to have a drink at a cafe before turning around and walking home again, because I could see she was getting tired.
It's not like my boyfriend was maliciously avoiding doing all that work. It just..didn't seem to occur to him. And I don't mind being a host exactly. I just was very thrown off by the whole thing when I realized he wasn't going to do it, because it was his family. And since I am still getting to know his family, I felt sort of pressured into it. Partly because they have always been really gracious to me and I wanted them to have a nice time, and partly because I was afraid that if I didn't, then they'd go home and talk about that awful impolite American and what-was-he-thinking.
posted by colfax at 5:49 AM on July 16, 2015 [102 favorites]
But the oddest thing happened when those family members arrived for a visit: all of a sudden, I was the host, not him. I was the one making tea or fetching water, setting the table, adjusting the thermostat, making space for their stuff in the bathroom. He and his sister had an argument, and so I ended up being the one having brunch with her and her kids the next day, trying to smooth things over, while he went for a walk. When his dad came to visit for the day (they don't get along very well) I ended up entertaining him for an hour while my boyfriend went running, because although his dad is kind of a pain in the neck, he also seemed a bit lonely. When we went walking with his elderly aunt, I was the one keeping an eye on her and making the suggestion to have a drink at a cafe before turning around and walking home again, because I could see she was getting tired.
It's not like my boyfriend was maliciously avoiding doing all that work. It just..didn't seem to occur to him. And I don't mind being a host exactly. I just was very thrown off by the whole thing when I realized he wasn't going to do it, because it was his family. And since I am still getting to know his family, I felt sort of pressured into it. Partly because they have always been really gracious to me and I wanted them to have a nice time, and partly because I was afraid that if I didn't, then they'd go home and talk about that awful impolite American and what-was-he-thinking.
posted by colfax at 5:49 AM on July 16, 2015 [102 favorites]
So I have to expend about 3x more energy and time trying to sugarcoat things and present them in a non-threatening way and I just get so tired of it sometimes.
Oh god, yes, this. Since most of the stories in here have been about this in private contexts, here's a work example.
I had an older dude stomp into my office and say "Let Mike know we're here. He knows who we are." No idea of which Mike (we have more than one), and also... I AM NOT THE RECEPTIONIST. We have multiple receptionists. Dude had bypassed all of the actual receptionists, taken over a conference room in the wrong building, and demanded that I find an unspecified Mike for him. Because I am female, so regardless of my actual job title, it is still somehow my job to call the actual receptionists, figure out where the dude in question belongs, and gently go break it to him that, gosh, we're so sorry our office confused you, but you're in the wrong building, the right building is right over there, have a great day. Because that kind of dude will totally hold his mistake against us unless we sooth his ruffled feathers.
posted by pie ninja at 5:56 AM on July 16, 2015 [65 favorites]
Oh god, yes, this. Since most of the stories in here have been about this in private contexts, here's a work example.
I had an older dude stomp into my office and say "Let Mike know we're here. He knows who we are." No idea of which Mike (we have more than one), and also... I AM NOT THE RECEPTIONIST. We have multiple receptionists. Dude had bypassed all of the actual receptionists, taken over a conference room in the wrong building, and demanded that I find an unspecified Mike for him. Because I am female, so regardless of my actual job title, it is still somehow my job to call the actual receptionists, figure out where the dude in question belongs, and gently go break it to him that, gosh, we're so sorry our office confused you, but you're in the wrong building, the right building is right over there, have a great day. Because that kind of dude will totally hold his mistake against us unless we sooth his ruffled feathers.
posted by pie ninja at 5:56 AM on July 16, 2015 [65 favorites]
Seconding a few of the comments above- where just the discussion of this has given me a vocabulary to discuss it- we had a 2hr conversation about this concept in my home last night... Emotional labor is something I'm very good at, but it took me being utterly overwhelmed at work and hitting a horrid bout of insomnia to finally turn around to my SO and go "dude, I just don't have the energy to deal with setting up things for us/you anymore" and so we didn't do anything social for a while, and when a thing (for his friends!) came up that needed planning, it became his problem to figure out, and all of a sudden, he now understands how hard it is to wrangle 5 adults (who all want to go on the trip!) and coordinate everything. It's EXHAUSTING. The actual logistics are complicated, the emotional labor of balancing everyone and realizing that oh so and so has x thing going on, so they really can't leave work early and someone else has issues at home and that's why they're touchy/not instantly replying and I don't intend to gather information, but you listen. And you put the pieces together, and you don't trample over everything for the current short term goal, but for the longer term goal of humanity working together.
It goes back to the maintanance vs short term solution people always mention when cleaning or household chores come up and the guy is 100% willing to scrub the toilet with a toothbrush every year, but refuses to sweep weekly.
And unsurprisingly, the men who figure out how to combine emotional labor with work monetize it and are praised for their social skills. *sigh*
posted by larthegreat at 6:06 AM on July 16, 2015 [40 favorites]
It goes back to the maintanance vs short term solution people always mention when cleaning or household chores come up and the guy is 100% willing to scrub the toilet with a toothbrush every year, but refuses to sweep weekly.
And unsurprisingly, the men who figure out how to combine emotional labor with work monetize it and are praised for their social skills. *sigh*
posted by larthegreat at 6:06 AM on July 16, 2015 [40 favorites]
Oh man.
This thread has been rough to read, as I can see my (gay male) self in a lot of the stories that have been told. Thank you for telling them.
My boyfriend and I are stuck in a classic version of this dynamic. He had Christmas gifts for my entire family figured out by Hallowe'en.
I would love to hear stories or strategies about how men (or people in the 'male' role in this dynamic) have stepped up. What has worked for you? (The input/output breastfeeding/diapers story was amazing.
posted by sixswitch at 6:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
This thread has been rough to read, as I can see my (gay male) self in a lot of the stories that have been told. Thank you for telling them.
My boyfriend and I are stuck in a classic version of this dynamic. He had Christmas gifts for my entire family figured out by Hallowe'en.
I would love to hear stories or strategies about how men (or people in the 'male' role in this dynamic) have stepped up. What has worked for you? (The input/output breastfeeding/diapers story was amazing.
posted by sixswitch at 6:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
Now I can't stop thinking what the world would be like if men started treating everyone with the same care and concern they show women they're trying to get into bed.
Depressingly enough, the number of comments in this thread alone about the behavior of husbands and boyfriends (ex- or current) who assume women do all the emotional labor is evidence that we already live in this world . . . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 6:12 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Depressingly enough, the number of comments in this thread alone about the behavior of husbands and boyfriends (ex- or current) who assume women do all the emotional labor is evidence that we already live in this world . . . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 6:12 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
...when a thing (for his friends!) came up that needed planning, it became his problem to figure out, and all of a sudden, he now understands how hard it is to wrangle 5 adults (who all want to go on the trip!) and coordinate everything. It's EXHAUSTING. The actual logistics are complicated, the emotional labor of balancing everyone and realizing that oh so and so has x thing going on, so they really can't leave work early and someone else has issues at home and that's why they're touchy/not instantly replying...
Omigod, I have gotten paid for this kind of work - as a secretary and as a stage manager.
But I was doing both jobs simultaneously for ten years while also trying to do that in my own life. No wonder I've been so exhausted for so long.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:30 AM on July 16, 2015 [14 favorites]
Omigod, I have gotten paid for this kind of work - as a secretary and as a stage manager.
But I was doing both jobs simultaneously for ten years while also trying to do that in my own life. No wonder I've been so exhausted for so long.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:30 AM on July 16, 2015 [14 favorites]
What does the sort of emotional labor that men ask women to perform in friendships look like in the context of friendships that, like many of the marriages discussed in this thread, are mostly good and loving?
If I had a nickel for every time I have heard a friend tell me, "Wow, sockermom, talking to you is like talking to a therapist - only better!" I would have been able to pay for a second masters in social work so that I could actually charge for the privilege. Oh, except that I am pretty sure the "only better!" part refers to the fact that my labor is free, and can be done while we eat lunch together instead of in a stuffy office somewhere.
Another story: just yesterday I had lunch with a (male) friend. He launched into a long story about himself the moment we sat down at the table. When the food came, about 40 minutes later, he took out his phone for a food photo, started eating, and with a full mouth said, "Oh, so how are you?" He listened for about two minutes and then started to poke at his phone.
Another example: I recently passed a life milestone. My best guy friend couldn't make it to my celebration dinner because he "scored" a date at the last minute. Oh, I also planned the celebration dinner even though god, I was embarrassed about making a whole thing out of my milestone, of celebrating me, it seemed gross somehow. Especially if I arranged it myself. But, as my boyfriend said, "Gee, that's probably something I should do for you, but then it just won't end up happening."
Other general examples of emotional labor in friendship:
- Being someone I can ask for help and rely on if needed. When I had pneumonia, I only asked my female friends for help. I knew my male friends wouldn't come through.
- Getting in touch just to say hi
- Initating plans
- Doing things I like to do sometimes. Asking me where I would like to go to eat or what movie I'd like to see.
- Telling me: "Call me if you need anything!" I have never once heard a man say that to me unless I was dating him. Women say that all the time to me when they know I might need something (e.g. when I am sick, like my pneumonia example above).
- Listening when I talk. Not looking at your phone, or at people (women) walking by, or at my chest.
- Conversing with me rather than saying, "I don't care about that" or "Who cares?" when I talk about something. Yes, this happens - frequently it is when I talk about feminism, I've noticed.
- Not interrupting me and making space so I can talk. Particularly an issue in groups of men where I am the only woman.
So, to answer the question: it's showing that you care about the people you call friends by doing things that demonstrate that friendship in an active way. Not letting the woman plan everything, or only doing what you like with her. Listening when she talks. Being kind. Remembering things that matter to her and letting her know you remembered those things. It's being a friend.
posted by sockermom at 6:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [102 favorites]
If I had a nickel for every time I have heard a friend tell me, "Wow, sockermom, talking to you is like talking to a therapist - only better!" I would have been able to pay for a second masters in social work so that I could actually charge for the privilege. Oh, except that I am pretty sure the "only better!" part refers to the fact that my labor is free, and can be done while we eat lunch together instead of in a stuffy office somewhere.
Another story: just yesterday I had lunch with a (male) friend. He launched into a long story about himself the moment we sat down at the table. When the food came, about 40 minutes later, he took out his phone for a food photo, started eating, and with a full mouth said, "Oh, so how are you?" He listened for about two minutes and then started to poke at his phone.
Another example: I recently passed a life milestone. My best guy friend couldn't make it to my celebration dinner because he "scored" a date at the last minute. Oh, I also planned the celebration dinner even though god, I was embarrassed about making a whole thing out of my milestone, of celebrating me, it seemed gross somehow. Especially if I arranged it myself. But, as my boyfriend said, "Gee, that's probably something I should do for you, but then it just won't end up happening."
Other general examples of emotional labor in friendship:
- Being someone I can ask for help and rely on if needed. When I had pneumonia, I only asked my female friends for help. I knew my male friends wouldn't come through.
- Getting in touch just to say hi
- Initating plans
- Doing things I like to do sometimes. Asking me where I would like to go to eat or what movie I'd like to see.
- Telling me: "Call me if you need anything!" I have never once heard a man say that to me unless I was dating him. Women say that all the time to me when they know I might need something (e.g. when I am sick, like my pneumonia example above).
- Listening when I talk. Not looking at your phone, or at people (women) walking by, or at my chest.
- Conversing with me rather than saying, "I don't care about that" or "Who cares?" when I talk about something. Yes, this happens - frequently it is when I talk about feminism, I've noticed.
- Not interrupting me and making space so I can talk. Particularly an issue in groups of men where I am the only woman.
So, to answer the question: it's showing that you care about the people you call friends by doing things that demonstrate that friendship in an active way. Not letting the woman plan everything, or only doing what you like with her. Listening when she talks. Being kind. Remembering things that matter to her and letting her know you remembered those things. It's being a friend.
posted by sockermom at 6:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [102 favorites]
litereally: " because it has given me vocabulary to voice all my issues around this."
I first learned the term around five years ago, when we had a baby at home, and I was frequently frustrated and resentful, but wasn't sure quite how to express why, and I ran across an article talking about it. I explained it to my husband and he was like, "Okay, that makes sense, I don't viscerally 'get it,' but I hear what you're saying." And since then he's tried to pick up a lot more of the emotional labor, and I can tell him, "You know, I feel like I'm doing all the emotional labor on this [dealing with family holidays, let us say] and I'm getting frustrated," and he will say, "What can I pick up for you? Or do you just want to vent for a while?" And I can say, "I'm worn out, I just can't deal" (which always means emotionally worn out for me), and he will go grocery shopping on Friday and take the kids out of the house all day Saturday and cook all weekend so that I don't have to run those errands or plan meals or make shopping lists or think of all-day entertainment or supervise children. By midafternoon Saturday I'm always like, "Where'd you all gooooooooo I'm ready to be human again!"
Just having a term to apply to that kind of work helped a LOT in making our home more equitable and giving us language to talk about that emotional work. And the other part of it is, since emotional work isn't recognized as work, people are rarely thanked for it. My husband now frequently thanks me, like, "Hey, thanks for getting everything together so the kids could have a great Christmas" or "Thanks for putting together this trip" or "Thanks for sorting all the boys' clothes and figuring out what they need new for school" or "Thanks for dealing with the plumber." THIS MAKES ME FEEL LIKE QUEEN OF THE WORLD! Just having all my "background work" recognized helps a lot!
I don't mind doing emotional labor for my family and friends. It does make me feel good to take care of them. But it feels even better to have that work acknowledge, respected, appreciated, and reciprocated. Being able to talk about "emotional labor" with my husband, just having that language, really helped both of us recognize it and do better at recognizing and balancing that work.
FJT: " I could imagine a subscription service where you give out your contact list and every time a holiday rolls around cards get sent to people on the list. Maybe you can add your own details or have 'em first sent over to your own house to sign them."
I get this card from one of my uncles. They fancily raised-ink print his signature on it and everything so you have to look real closely to figure out it isn't actually signed but printed.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [87 favorites]
I first learned the term around five years ago, when we had a baby at home, and I was frequently frustrated and resentful, but wasn't sure quite how to express why, and I ran across an article talking about it. I explained it to my husband and he was like, "Okay, that makes sense, I don't viscerally 'get it,' but I hear what you're saying." And since then he's tried to pick up a lot more of the emotional labor, and I can tell him, "You know, I feel like I'm doing all the emotional labor on this [dealing with family holidays, let us say] and I'm getting frustrated," and he will say, "What can I pick up for you? Or do you just want to vent for a while?" And I can say, "I'm worn out, I just can't deal" (which always means emotionally worn out for me), and he will go grocery shopping on Friday and take the kids out of the house all day Saturday and cook all weekend so that I don't have to run those errands or plan meals or make shopping lists or think of all-day entertainment or supervise children. By midafternoon Saturday I'm always like, "Where'd you all gooooooooo I'm ready to be human again!"
Just having a term to apply to that kind of work helped a LOT in making our home more equitable and giving us language to talk about that emotional work. And the other part of it is, since emotional work isn't recognized as work, people are rarely thanked for it. My husband now frequently thanks me, like, "Hey, thanks for getting everything together so the kids could have a great Christmas" or "Thanks for putting together this trip" or "Thanks for sorting all the boys' clothes and figuring out what they need new for school" or "Thanks for dealing with the plumber." THIS MAKES ME FEEL LIKE QUEEN OF THE WORLD! Just having all my "background work" recognized helps a lot!
I don't mind doing emotional labor for my family and friends. It does make me feel good to take care of them. But it feels even better to have that work acknowledge, respected, appreciated, and reciprocated. Being able to talk about "emotional labor" with my husband, just having that language, really helped both of us recognize it and do better at recognizing and balancing that work.
FJT: " I could imagine a subscription service where you give out your contact list and every time a holiday rolls around cards get sent to people on the list. Maybe you can add your own details or have 'em first sent over to your own house to sign them."
I get this card from one of my uncles. They fancily raised-ink print his signature on it and everything so you have to look real closely to figure out it isn't actually signed but printed.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [87 favorites]
Oh yes, outside of romantic relationships, in the workplace (in my case, academe), I have approximately a billion examples of women being expected to do unpaid emotional work on top of -- or in place of -- their actual job description duties.
Like, right now, there is a battle going on between the clerical staff in one area (where the students and faculty are predominantly male) and the admin/advising/clerical staff in my area. All the people immediately in the battle are women, but the whole thing revolves around the apparently vital importance of "nurturing" mostly men young adult college students, i.e., enabling learned helplessness by doing things FOR them rather than teaching them to do independently some basic self-registration tasks that my dogs could do if they had thumbs. The people who are taking it upon themselves to do this nurturing and "helping" are breaking a bunch of policies and messing things up for other departments in the process, and when called on it, they basically accuse the rest of us of being heartless unnatural Lady Macbeths or puppy-drowning psychopaths. Because helping is what real women do, doncha know?
But the larger cause of all this is that the highly paid men faculty advisors in that predominantly male area, whose job it is to help students with registration problems and teach them to be independent, cannot be fucking bothered to do any job duty that's not directly ego-and-expertise-stroking, fob all the scut work of advising off on the clerical staff whose job it's not, and blame these lower-paid employees when a student who hasn't taken 100- and 200-level prerequisites gets put into a 300-level class and fails.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:46 AM on July 16, 2015 [32 favorites]
Like, right now, there is a battle going on between the clerical staff in one area (where the students and faculty are predominantly male) and the admin/advising/clerical staff in my area. All the people immediately in the battle are women, but the whole thing revolves around the apparently vital importance of "nurturing" mostly men young adult college students, i.e., enabling learned helplessness by doing things FOR them rather than teaching them to do independently some basic self-registration tasks that my dogs could do if they had thumbs. The people who are taking it upon themselves to do this nurturing and "helping" are breaking a bunch of policies and messing things up for other departments in the process, and when called on it, they basically accuse the rest of us of being heartless unnatural Lady Macbeths or puppy-drowning psychopaths. Because helping is what real women do, doncha know?
But the larger cause of all this is that the highly paid men faculty advisors in that predominantly male area, whose job it is to help students with registration problems and teach them to be independent, cannot be fucking bothered to do any job duty that's not directly ego-and-expertise-stroking, fob all the scut work of advising off on the clerical staff whose job it's not, and blame these lower-paid employees when a student who hasn't taken 100- and 200-level prerequisites gets put into a 300-level class and fails.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:46 AM on July 16, 2015 [32 favorites]
I would love to hear stories or strategies about how men (or people in the 'male' role in this dynamic) have stepped up. What has worked for you? (The input/output breastfeeding/diapers story was amazing.
No offense, because I had a very similar question typed up, but you're kind of doing that guy thing where you want to make the conversation about guys (plus you're asking the women to do the emotional labor of finding solutions to your problems for you). If you want to me-mail me I'll give you some stuff I've done to work on my own expectations in my relationships with women, but I think in the context of this conversation a good way for us men of goodwill to step up is to just say "yeah, that sucks" and then quietly start to take note about what we can do better.
Which isn't to say that you're a bad person for asking the question, or that it's not coming from a good place, just that this isn't a great time to ask it. This would be a great question to use your weekly ask on.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:07 AM on July 16, 2015 [143 favorites]
No offense, because I had a very similar question typed up, but you're kind of doing that guy thing where you want to make the conversation about guys (plus you're asking the women to do the emotional labor of finding solutions to your problems for you). If you want to me-mail me I'll give you some stuff I've done to work on my own expectations in my relationships with women, but I think in the context of this conversation a good way for us men of goodwill to step up is to just say "yeah, that sucks" and then quietly start to take note about what we can do better.
Which isn't to say that you're a bad person for asking the question, or that it's not coming from a good place, just that this isn't a great time to ask it. This would be a great question to use your weekly ask on.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:07 AM on July 16, 2015 [143 favorites]
You know, I think I have a pretty good marriage to a pretty rad dude, but I still see quite a few of these behaviours in my everyday life. (I no longer do the birthday prompting. We have a calendar where we both write these things. If he can see the calendar, then he knows what to do. And he does it.) But yeah, things like leaving clothes around the house---you pinpoint the trajectory of when he becomes Office Guy to Normal Human by the trail of stuff he leaves from the front door to the living room--or sometimes relying on me to schedule or remind him about social events we have planned, I do because I have never thought until now that it should be any other way. Or rather, I have never realized that I am expected to do it solely because of my gender. I have a middling relationship with my dad, yet I am the one who is expected to take the high road and keep in touch with him. (I get this from everyone in my family, not just my spouse.) But I stand firm on that one, my dad knows how to use a damn phone. Let him take the initiative. I got other shit to do.
I guess what I am saying is that I will let my spouse know that we are in this together so time to start getting used to some unpaid emotional labour, baby.
posted by Kitteh at 7:13 AM on July 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
I guess what I am saying is that I will let my spouse know that we are in this together so time to start getting used to some unpaid emotional labour, baby.
posted by Kitteh at 7:13 AM on July 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
The people who are taking it upon themselves to do this nurturing and "helping" are breaking a bunch of policies and messing things up for other departments in the process, and when called on it, they basically accuse the rest of us of being heartless unnatural Lady Macbeths or puppy-drowning psychopaths. Because helping is what real women do, doncha know?
I work as a program coordinator at a medical school and every conference, meeting, etc. I've gone to for people in my role there's always one person who gives a speech about how we're supposed to be the residents' "mothers". It bugs the shit out of me, but everyone else seems to eat it up hook, line and sinker and will brag about how they're their residents' second mom. Though I'm pretty sure I do an excellent job of actually, you know, coordinating our program, I do feel like I'm being judged because I don't arrange baby showers or seek out deep emotional connections and become heavily invested in the personal lives of grown ass people who are basically coworkers. Which is not to say I wouldn't be there to help if one of them indeed had a problem and indeed I am quite fond of most of them and want them to succeed, but the whole expectation that I'm going to do the job of a mother on top of my actual work is just icky.
posted by Jess the Mess at 7:30 AM on July 16, 2015 [42 favorites]
I work as a program coordinator at a medical school and every conference, meeting, etc. I've gone to for people in my role there's always one person who gives a speech about how we're supposed to be the residents' "mothers". It bugs the shit out of me, but everyone else seems to eat it up hook, line and sinker and will brag about how they're their residents' second mom. Though I'm pretty sure I do an excellent job of actually, you know, coordinating our program, I do feel like I'm being judged because I don't arrange baby showers or seek out deep emotional connections and become heavily invested in the personal lives of grown ass people who are basically coworkers. Which is not to say I wouldn't be there to help if one of them indeed had a problem and indeed I am quite fond of most of them and want them to succeed, but the whole expectation that I'm going to do the job of a mother on top of my actual work is just icky.
posted by Jess the Mess at 7:30 AM on July 16, 2015 [42 favorites]
Oh yes, outside of romantic relationships, in the workplace (in my case, academe), I have approximately a billion examples of women being expected to do unpaid emotional work on top of -- or in place of -- their actual job description duties.
Oh goodness yes. This is my semi-official job duty at this point, which my boss gave to me a couple of years ago "because you're the only one bossy enough to get it done." Recently, I met with him and had to explain the underlying dynamics that had caused an explosion of tension between one thoughtless male student and literally the entire rest of the lab. (Said student had poorly planned a field excursion and had attempted to outsource as many of his failures in planning to as many other students as he could, with predictably irritating results.) I sketched out literally years of unresolved tensions and sore spots for him, including at least three incidents he had had no clue about, and explained what I was doing to try to ameliorate these things and keep the lab working smoothly as a group. I routinely behave in particular ways in lab meetings in order to (explicitly!) back up my boss' clearly stated attempts to keep the lab running smoothly. I organize most of our training initiatives, have provided most of the suggestions that keep our meetings running on time, and moderate the undergrad assistants as much as I can. I also make sure that the common areas get and stay clean, handle a lot of last-minute repair gigs, and make sure that people listen to our other "fixer," who is better at a lot of things than I am but who doesn't handle open confrontation as well.
And he told me that he'd given me this task of doing miscellaneous things and interfacing between the members of the lab "because you're kind of forgetful, so I deliberately gave you a light task." And the thing that gets me is that my "unofficial" work isn't the only one he devalues. He routinely seems to miss the contributions of the two people who do more to keep the lab running than I do, both of whom train and directly oversee more undergrads than I do as well as train grad students in their area of expertise. But they're not good, as I said, at confrontation, and because both of them are so reliable he cuts them far less slack than he does other members of the lab. It is exhausting and really frustrating.
posted by sciatrix at 7:32 AM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
Oh goodness yes. This is my semi-official job duty at this point, which my boss gave to me a couple of years ago "because you're the only one bossy enough to get it done." Recently, I met with him and had to explain the underlying dynamics that had caused an explosion of tension between one thoughtless male student and literally the entire rest of the lab. (Said student had poorly planned a field excursion and had attempted to outsource as many of his failures in planning to as many other students as he could, with predictably irritating results.) I sketched out literally years of unresolved tensions and sore spots for him, including at least three incidents he had had no clue about, and explained what I was doing to try to ameliorate these things and keep the lab working smoothly as a group. I routinely behave in particular ways in lab meetings in order to (explicitly!) back up my boss' clearly stated attempts to keep the lab running smoothly. I organize most of our training initiatives, have provided most of the suggestions that keep our meetings running on time, and moderate the undergrad assistants as much as I can. I also make sure that the common areas get and stay clean, handle a lot of last-minute repair gigs, and make sure that people listen to our other "fixer," who is better at a lot of things than I am but who doesn't handle open confrontation as well.
And he told me that he'd given me this task of doing miscellaneous things and interfacing between the members of the lab "because you're kind of forgetful, so I deliberately gave you a light task." And the thing that gets me is that my "unofficial" work isn't the only one he devalues. He routinely seems to miss the contributions of the two people who do more to keep the lab running than I do, both of whom train and directly oversee more undergrads than I do as well as train grad students in their area of expertise. But they're not good, as I said, at confrontation, and because both of them are so reliable he cuts them far less slack than he does other members of the lab. It is exhausting and really frustrating.
posted by sciatrix at 7:32 AM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
As a woman, I feel lucky in this respect on two counts:
1) I was raised by a mother who very actively challenged this kind of thing, even if it made her look rude. For example, if we visited my father's side of the family, all the women visiting would immediately head to kitchen to help with the cooking, while the men would kick back and relax on the sofas. This was in India, so if anything, patriarchal gender norms were even stronger. My mom just would not go into the kitchen and stay chatting with the menfolk about work or whatever other interests she had (she had a lot of them!) . As a child, this made me intensely uncomfortable, but she'd just tell me that I would understand later on (which I do). She was extremely socially engaged -- attended lots of weddings, had heaps of friends, had lots of dinner parties -- so I would say she did a lot of emotional work. However, she called this out early and often. I remember there was a particular friend of my father's who he was quite close to. My mom said, you know what, I'm just going to wait and let dad invite him home. It's been 25 years and this man has still not received an invite to our home. She also would pick and choose the kind of labor she was willing to do -- I've never seen her address a single greeting card, for example, though all her friends knew that they were cared for. She refused to attend on relatives at hospital bedsides besides for short visits (she said that hospitals gave her the creeps) and shrugged if people thought she was uncaring because of it. My dad was the one who did this sort of thing, in fact, staying overnight with sick relatives in hospitals.
2) I happened to marry a man who is actually well above average when it comes to being willing to take on emotional labor. This wasn't accidental -- I was definitely well aware of this sort of thing from my mother, and was on the lookout for a guy like that. I'm not sure why he's like that - a lot of it is probably just nature -- but he also was brought up mostly by his mother and grandmother, and his father (whom is mother is divorced from) is quite emotionally distant. His mother and grandmother expect a lot of emotional labor from him -- calls every week at the very least (often several times a week). When his mother injured her knee mountain-climbing when he was a teenager, he spent an entire summer month waiting on her and teaching himself how to cook from an Italian cookbook. He sends cards and flowers and calls people on their birthdays (he's way better at this than me, and will often remind me of upcoming birthdays). He keeps the household calendar, noting down dentist appointments and dinner reservations. He is usually the first to notice if the kitchen floor needs cleaning. He researches places we're going to travel to. He's definitely not perfect -- he hates making non-personal phone calls, so chores of that kind of often need to be done by me. He is rather introverted and is not great at small talk, so I often do the social heavy lifting when we go out. However, in terms of managing relationships and keeping friends and relatives happy over a period of decades, he is by far better than me, so I feel that we balance each other out -- I can make friends and he can keep them. We shall see what happens when we have kids and the weight of societal expectations begins to make itself felt.
posted by peacheater at 7:38 AM on July 16, 2015 [73 favorites]
1) I was raised by a mother who very actively challenged this kind of thing, even if it made her look rude. For example, if we visited my father's side of the family, all the women visiting would immediately head to kitchen to help with the cooking, while the men would kick back and relax on the sofas. This was in India, so if anything, patriarchal gender norms were even stronger. My mom just would not go into the kitchen and stay chatting with the menfolk about work or whatever other interests she had (she had a lot of them!) . As a child, this made me intensely uncomfortable, but she'd just tell me that I would understand later on (which I do). She was extremely socially engaged -- attended lots of weddings, had heaps of friends, had lots of dinner parties -- so I would say she did a lot of emotional work. However, she called this out early and often. I remember there was a particular friend of my father's who he was quite close to. My mom said, you know what, I'm just going to wait and let dad invite him home. It's been 25 years and this man has still not received an invite to our home. She also would pick and choose the kind of labor she was willing to do -- I've never seen her address a single greeting card, for example, though all her friends knew that they were cared for. She refused to attend on relatives at hospital bedsides besides for short visits (she said that hospitals gave her the creeps) and shrugged if people thought she was uncaring because of it. My dad was the one who did this sort of thing, in fact, staying overnight with sick relatives in hospitals.
2) I happened to marry a man who is actually well above average when it comes to being willing to take on emotional labor. This wasn't accidental -- I was definitely well aware of this sort of thing from my mother, and was on the lookout for a guy like that. I'm not sure why he's like that - a lot of it is probably just nature -- but he also was brought up mostly by his mother and grandmother, and his father (whom is mother is divorced from) is quite emotionally distant. His mother and grandmother expect a lot of emotional labor from him -- calls every week at the very least (often several times a week). When his mother injured her knee mountain-climbing when he was a teenager, he spent an entire summer month waiting on her and teaching himself how to cook from an Italian cookbook. He sends cards and flowers and calls people on their birthdays (he's way better at this than me, and will often remind me of upcoming birthdays). He keeps the household calendar, noting down dentist appointments and dinner reservations. He is usually the first to notice if the kitchen floor needs cleaning. He researches places we're going to travel to. He's definitely not perfect -- he hates making non-personal phone calls, so chores of that kind of often need to be done by me. He is rather introverted and is not great at small talk, so I often do the social heavy lifting when we go out. However, in terms of managing relationships and keeping friends and relatives happy over a period of decades, he is by far better than me, so I feel that we balance each other out -- I can make friends and he can keep them. We shall see what happens when we have kids and the weight of societal expectations begins to make itself felt.
posted by peacheater at 7:38 AM on July 16, 2015 [73 favorites]
vathek, in terms of what equal emotional labor would look like in a friendship, I have had a really good experience recently with a male friend that stood out in such stark contrast to my relationship woes that it really highlighted the difference in emotional labor for me.
My friend B has had lady troubles in a casual way for a very long time, and we're pretty good friends, and I've take him to dinner and commiserated with him several times before about it, because he's a friend and I care about him and I want him to have someone in his life who's on his side, so to speak. When I got dumped, he was one of the people who found out first, and he was phenomenal on a level I've only ever experienced with female friends -- letting me come over to his house and vent at him, not making conversations about romantic woes All About Him, saying incredibly wonderful things like, "Well, [Ex] is being punished too-- by not getting to be with you," giving me a ride to a party we were both going to so I wouldn't have to drive, checking in with me during the even to make sure I was okay, bringing me a blanket when I fell asleep on the couch at that party because I was so exhausted from having cried for twelve hours the night before. Over the next several days, he made any time he was home available to me (he lives close by) to come over and just... hang out and work, if I needed to, so that I didn't have to be in my suddenly haunted apartment. Having been dumped on the very beginning of 4th of July weekend and suddenly denied any of the parties with mutual friends I was supposed to go to with my ex, he even got in touch with his mom and made sure I could come to their family dinner so I wouldn't be home alone crying on a holiday. The three components of emotional labor were there in spades: he knew (it's amazing how oblivious men are most of the time, but B knew even down to knowing I'd probably just lost all my holiday plans), he cared (not in a casual, obligatory way, but in a serious I-don't-want-my-friend-to-be-in-pain way), and he did something (it's not like an extra guest for a holiday meal is no work). It's rare to find a male friend who will actually do all three.
On a larger scale, the amount of emotional caretaking he and several other of my friends did for me was incredible. My friend M was my breakup recovery coach, texting me to make sure I was eating. My friend Buddy took me out for gelato the day after and just wandered an upscale mall with me for as long as I wanted, watching people and letting me tell her what happened in various ways over and over while I processed. My friend S has been texting me every night with pictures of Natalie Dormer and weird stories from her OR. And here's the thing: I didn't have to do anything. I didn't have to plan any of this, or even reach out beyond saying, "A thing happened and I'm so, so sad about it." People said, "I'm coming to get you and we're doing this thing to make you feel better," and picked me up from my house so I wouldn't have to drive. I never had to say, "Do you have time to talk?", because friends came out of every corner of my life to lovingly shout, "I have time to talk! Do you want to talk about it or do you want distraction?"
It was so incredible and validating to be held up by all of these excellent people who just... felt like a safety net. Like I couldn't manage my own emotions for a while but I could trust them to do it for me. And yes, they're all, men and women, getting flowers and notes explaining how incredibly lucky I am to have friends like them as soon as I can do it without being a sobbing mess. They gave me emotional work when I needed it, and so I'll turn around and give it back to them. THAT's what a good, equitable friendship looks like. A constant circle of mutual support that may wax and wane according to the lives and abilities of each person in it (God knows I wasn't capable of providing much work this month), but that overall balances out.
The thing that really highlights how shitty this system is, for everyone, is that my subconscious immediately started monitoring B's motivations: "Oh no! Does he want to sleep with me and that's why he's being so nice?" Which is both a potentially stressful situation and a crappy thing to think about a friend who came through for you when you needed him. What's more, I bet several of you reading this thread saw the above and thought, "Well, why aren't you dating him?"-- God knows I have even though I have no real interest-- as though the only capacity in which men can give this sort of support is a romantic one. As always, patriarchy ruins it all for everyone.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:58 AM on July 16, 2015 [140 favorites]
My friend B has had lady troubles in a casual way for a very long time, and we're pretty good friends, and I've take him to dinner and commiserated with him several times before about it, because he's a friend and I care about him and I want him to have someone in his life who's on his side, so to speak. When I got dumped, he was one of the people who found out first, and he was phenomenal on a level I've only ever experienced with female friends -- letting me come over to his house and vent at him, not making conversations about romantic woes All About Him, saying incredibly wonderful things like, "Well, [Ex] is being punished too-- by not getting to be with you," giving me a ride to a party we were both going to so I wouldn't have to drive, checking in with me during the even to make sure I was okay, bringing me a blanket when I fell asleep on the couch at that party because I was so exhausted from having cried for twelve hours the night before. Over the next several days, he made any time he was home available to me (he lives close by) to come over and just... hang out and work, if I needed to, so that I didn't have to be in my suddenly haunted apartment. Having been dumped on the very beginning of 4th of July weekend and suddenly denied any of the parties with mutual friends I was supposed to go to with my ex, he even got in touch with his mom and made sure I could come to their family dinner so I wouldn't be home alone crying on a holiday. The three components of emotional labor were there in spades: he knew (it's amazing how oblivious men are most of the time, but B knew even down to knowing I'd probably just lost all my holiday plans), he cared (not in a casual, obligatory way, but in a serious I-don't-want-my-friend-to-be-in-pain way), and he did something (it's not like an extra guest for a holiday meal is no work). It's rare to find a male friend who will actually do all three.
On a larger scale, the amount of emotional caretaking he and several other of my friends did for me was incredible. My friend M was my breakup recovery coach, texting me to make sure I was eating. My friend Buddy took me out for gelato the day after and just wandered an upscale mall with me for as long as I wanted, watching people and letting me tell her what happened in various ways over and over while I processed. My friend S has been texting me every night with pictures of Natalie Dormer and weird stories from her OR. And here's the thing: I didn't have to do anything. I didn't have to plan any of this, or even reach out beyond saying, "A thing happened and I'm so, so sad about it." People said, "I'm coming to get you and we're doing this thing to make you feel better," and picked me up from my house so I wouldn't have to drive. I never had to say, "Do you have time to talk?", because friends came out of every corner of my life to lovingly shout, "I have time to talk! Do you want to talk about it or do you want distraction?"
It was so incredible and validating to be held up by all of these excellent people who just... felt like a safety net. Like I couldn't manage my own emotions for a while but I could trust them to do it for me. And yes, they're all, men and women, getting flowers and notes explaining how incredibly lucky I am to have friends like them as soon as I can do it without being a sobbing mess. They gave me emotional work when I needed it, and so I'll turn around and give it back to them. THAT's what a good, equitable friendship looks like. A constant circle of mutual support that may wax and wane according to the lives and abilities of each person in it (God knows I wasn't capable of providing much work this month), but that overall balances out.
The thing that really highlights how shitty this system is, for everyone, is that my subconscious immediately started monitoring B's motivations: "Oh no! Does he want to sleep with me and that's why he's being so nice?" Which is both a potentially stressful situation and a crappy thing to think about a friend who came through for you when you needed him. What's more, I bet several of you reading this thread saw the above and thought, "Well, why aren't you dating him?"-- God knows I have even though I have no real interest-- as though the only capacity in which men can give this sort of support is a romantic one. As always, patriarchy ruins it all for everyone.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:58 AM on July 16, 2015 [140 favorites]
Mr. Dorinda is excellent at doing emotional labour.... when it will directly benefit him. For example, he has almost singlehandedly planned the cross-country road trip that we are imminently embarking upon (for which I am grateful because ugh. Who wants to spend their day finding options for dog-friendly but not too expensive motels at appropriate intervals all across the continent? Have at 'er, babe), but he has only taken this on because he wanted to plan the trip around *his* choice of backpacking and hiking trips that we'll be doing along the way. He was willing to do the practical labour of researching hikes and choosing routes and organizing a trip with his Dad and brother, but utterly unwilling (or, perhaps worse, just completely unconscious) of doing the emotional labour of checking in with me to see if those hikes were interesting to me, or if I had ideas about where we might want to stop. He just presented me with the plan he'd come up with and, completely unironically, waited to be patted on the head and congratulated for being such a clever boy. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to have not had to do all the legwork on this... but maybe I might have liked some input on how we'll be spending the fun parts of our vacation?
Conversely, the parts of trip-planning that *don't* result in a tangible payoff for him (planning nutritious and non-fast food picnic-able meals that we can pack in the cooler and eat while we stop to let the dog have a romp, making sure the house is clean and organized for the cat sitter, keeping our friends and relatives informed about our travel schedule and juggling our limited visiting time so that everyone gets to see us at a time that works for them and no one feels slighted by too short of a visit, etc) are all things that have not even crossed his mind (he's happy to eat Subway for two weeks, so why shouldn't I be?), or that he finds patently ridiculous (why do we need to do extra cleaning for a pet sitter? He doesn't care what she thinks of us, and clearly the only reason I would want to spend extra time cleaning and organizing is some vain attempt to impress a stranger because silly women and not a consideration of her comfort and safety in our space and a desire to ensure she has everything available she needs to do the job we hired her to do), or that he is actively hostile to doing (we're the ones making a bazillion mile trip, everyone else should just conform their schedules to us or miss out, and it's not our fault and we shouldn't feel bad, and who cares that most of the people we are visiting are mothers with young children who are therefore subject to significant demands on their time and attention and are ACTUALLY NOT ABLE to just visit us when its convenient for us because clearly that's not real work and can be adjusted to suit his needs). So I've been doing all that work, and not only am I not being acknowledged or thanked for it, I'm often being ridiculed for "caring too much" and "not being able to just let it go" because he is seemingly incapable of understanding that the thing that is best and most convenient for him is maybe not best for someone else and choosing to ignore/remain ignorant of that has actual consequences for actual people and will actually cause real hurt and HOLY SHIT we're not driving across the entire country to visit our sisters and their kids and then brushing them off if they have the audacity to suggest that maybe they can't just "be flexible" with their days because THEY'VE GOT FUCKING WORK TO DO, and no, I'm not going to just "let it go" that your sister is HUGELY SAD that you (idiotically) told her that we are just going to skip visiting her at all because she (very reasonably) told us that her 2-year-old is afraid of dogs and so we can't crash at her house and you're pissed about it. ARHGAHGHHA!
So yeah.
That turned into a bit of a rant.
But I think the point I wanted to make (and which other women in this thread have made much more eloquently and less rantily than me) is that my partner is in almost every other area a legitimately fantastic feminist ally. He gets it. He takes action in many ways, large and small, to make the world a more humane and equitable place for women. He is wonderful, and I love him. But he does not understand the value of emotional labour, because he has never had to do it except when by choice, and he does not understand the consequences of neglecting that labour, because he is not the one who suffers them. He is not a monster. He is not a boor. He is insightful and proactive about many feminist issues.
But he is deeply and willfully blind in this area. He (like many men) is convinced that engaging in an emotional economy is voluntary, because for him it always has been.
posted by Dorinda at 8:16 AM on July 16, 2015 [237 favorites]
Conversely, the parts of trip-planning that *don't* result in a tangible payoff for him (planning nutritious and non-fast food picnic-able meals that we can pack in the cooler and eat while we stop to let the dog have a romp, making sure the house is clean and organized for the cat sitter, keeping our friends and relatives informed about our travel schedule and juggling our limited visiting time so that everyone gets to see us at a time that works for them and no one feels slighted by too short of a visit, etc) are all things that have not even crossed his mind (he's happy to eat Subway for two weeks, so why shouldn't I be?), or that he finds patently ridiculous (why do we need to do extra cleaning for a pet sitter? He doesn't care what she thinks of us, and clearly the only reason I would want to spend extra time cleaning and organizing is some vain attempt to impress a stranger because silly women and not a consideration of her comfort and safety in our space and a desire to ensure she has everything available she needs to do the job we hired her to do), or that he is actively hostile to doing (we're the ones making a bazillion mile trip, everyone else should just conform their schedules to us or miss out, and it's not our fault and we shouldn't feel bad, and who cares that most of the people we are visiting are mothers with young children who are therefore subject to significant demands on their time and attention and are ACTUALLY NOT ABLE to just visit us when its convenient for us because clearly that's not real work and can be adjusted to suit his needs). So I've been doing all that work, and not only am I not being acknowledged or thanked for it, I'm often being ridiculed for "caring too much" and "not being able to just let it go" because he is seemingly incapable of understanding that the thing that is best and most convenient for him is maybe not best for someone else and choosing to ignore/remain ignorant of that has actual consequences for actual people and will actually cause real hurt and HOLY SHIT we're not driving across the entire country to visit our sisters and their kids and then brushing them off if they have the audacity to suggest that maybe they can't just "be flexible" with their days because THEY'VE GOT FUCKING WORK TO DO, and no, I'm not going to just "let it go" that your sister is HUGELY SAD that you (idiotically) told her that we are just going to skip visiting her at all because she (very reasonably) told us that her 2-year-old is afraid of dogs and so we can't crash at her house and you're pissed about it. ARHGAHGHHA!
So yeah.
That turned into a bit of a rant.
But I think the point I wanted to make (and which other women in this thread have made much more eloquently and less rantily than me) is that my partner is in almost every other area a legitimately fantastic feminist ally. He gets it. He takes action in many ways, large and small, to make the world a more humane and equitable place for women. He is wonderful, and I love him. But he does not understand the value of emotional labour, because he has never had to do it except when by choice, and he does not understand the consequences of neglecting that labour, because he is not the one who suffers them. He is not a monster. He is not a boor. He is insightful and proactive about many feminist issues.
But he is deeply and willfully blind in this area. He (like many men) is convinced that engaging in an emotional economy is voluntary, because for him it always has been.
posted by Dorinda at 8:16 AM on July 16, 2015 [237 favorites]
Damn, Dorinda, that last paragraph alone is some awesome shit right there.
posted by Kitteh at 8:20 AM on July 16, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:20 AM on July 16, 2015 [14 favorites]
...you're kind of doing that guy thing where you want to make the conversation about guys...
Note taken, thank you. I am fascinated by how the question of emotional labour and gender-role casting is just as relevant in gay (and lesbian) relationships, and that felt like something I wanted to share.
I was using the 'third dude rule' for guidance, which I picked up in a theatre workshop. I can't find a link describing it, so here it is: in mixed-gender environments, try to not be the third guy in a row to talk. It's simple to execute and serves to a) make me conscious of how much space I take up, and b) create more space for women. Anyways, I felt comfortable posting because this thread did not seem to be struggling with that issue, but again: thanks, note taken.
...(plus you're asking the women to do the emotional labor of finding solutions to your problems for you).
Note rejected. What I actually asked was if people in the 'male' role could share how they'd moved from being conscious of this, to actually stepping up and doing better. I was pretty conscious of posting "hey 'guys', how can we in the 'male' role step up?" rather than "hey people doing so much emotional labour, tell us what to do."
Anyways, thank you for the graciously-phrased and generously-intended feedback on my comment and the offer to share your experiences privately.
posted by sixswitch at 8:33 AM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
Note taken, thank you. I am fascinated by how the question of emotional labour and gender-role casting is just as relevant in gay (and lesbian) relationships, and that felt like something I wanted to share.
I was using the 'third dude rule' for guidance, which I picked up in a theatre workshop. I can't find a link describing it, so here it is: in mixed-gender environments, try to not be the third guy in a row to talk. It's simple to execute and serves to a) make me conscious of how much space I take up, and b) create more space for women. Anyways, I felt comfortable posting because this thread did not seem to be struggling with that issue, but again: thanks, note taken.
...(plus you're asking the women to do the emotional labor of finding solutions to your problems for you).
Note rejected. What I actually asked was if people in the 'male' role could share how they'd moved from being conscious of this, to actually stepping up and doing better. I was pretty conscious of posting "hey 'guys', how can we in the 'male' role step up?" rather than "hey people doing so much emotional labour, tell us what to do."
Anyways, thank you for the graciously-phrased and generously-intended feedback on my comment and the offer to share your experiences privately.
posted by sixswitch at 8:33 AM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
My boyfriend and I are stuck in a classic version of this dynamic. He had Christmas gifts for my entire family figured out by Hallowe'en.
It's worth saying that this dynamic really isn't only something that happens in hetero relationships. The point other people have made in-thread about how emotional labor really hurts people if it doesn't get done? It turns out that while same-gender couples are usually more equitable about division of labor than hetero ones, there's still an interesting gendered difference there--gay men have a division of labor which is more equal than hetero couples, but less equal than lesbians'. (Check the last page there--it was the most accessible commentary on this I could find, which is a little telling.) I've always thought that this difference comes down to who gets socialized to look after this. Women see this as work that needs to get done and are, in general, more aware that this invisible work exists. Men... less so, which can make it easier to just not notice. It makes sense to me that this would play out in same-gender relationships just as it does in hetero ones.
That said, I've totally noticed a tendency in myself to step back and let my (nonbinary, often perceived-female) partner take the lion's share of this kind of household work since we moved in together a couple of months ago. It's really easy, especially when they have been jobless for a little while and I've been working full time, to just... not notice all the little cleaning/cooking/household shit they've done while they're home, and also to let my own contributions slack up. So I've been trying to compensate for that and start as I mean to go on by paying attention and consciously thanking my partner when I do notice stuff, defining tasks that are definitely mine no matter what (and others which are mine on certain days and not on others), and using a to-do-list app to be my reminder to do them.
I remember how annoying it is to have to remind someone to do their job and how that shouldn't be my partner's job to boss me to do my own shit, and I check my to-do list when I get up, before I leave for work, and when I get home. Stuff that I care about, I plan and organize, and it's my job to talk to my family just as it's my partner's job to talk to theirs. Carving out definite areas of responsibility, and having explicit conversations about what those should be--that's been a really helpful strategy, but it's even more important to say "no matter what this is my shit and I need to get up and do it" about those tasks.
posted by sciatrix at 8:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
It's worth saying that this dynamic really isn't only something that happens in hetero relationships. The point other people have made in-thread about how emotional labor really hurts people if it doesn't get done? It turns out that while same-gender couples are usually more equitable about division of labor than hetero ones, there's still an interesting gendered difference there--gay men have a division of labor which is more equal than hetero couples, but less equal than lesbians'. (Check the last page there--it was the most accessible commentary on this I could find, which is a little telling.) I've always thought that this difference comes down to who gets socialized to look after this. Women see this as work that needs to get done and are, in general, more aware that this invisible work exists. Men... less so, which can make it easier to just not notice. It makes sense to me that this would play out in same-gender relationships just as it does in hetero ones.
That said, I've totally noticed a tendency in myself to step back and let my (nonbinary, often perceived-female) partner take the lion's share of this kind of household work since we moved in together a couple of months ago. It's really easy, especially when they have been jobless for a little while and I've been working full time, to just... not notice all the little cleaning/cooking/household shit they've done while they're home, and also to let my own contributions slack up. So I've been trying to compensate for that and start as I mean to go on by paying attention and consciously thanking my partner when I do notice stuff, defining tasks that are definitely mine no matter what (and others which are mine on certain days and not on others), and using a to-do-list app to be my reminder to do them.
I remember how annoying it is to have to remind someone to do their job and how that shouldn't be my partner's job to boss me to do my own shit, and I check my to-do list when I get up, before I leave for work, and when I get home. Stuff that I care about, I plan and organize, and it's my job to talk to my family just as it's my partner's job to talk to theirs. Carving out definite areas of responsibility, and having explicit conversations about what those should be--that's been a really helpful strategy, but it's even more important to say "no matter what this is my shit and I need to get up and do it" about those tasks.
posted by sciatrix at 8:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
I just want to say as a man in a same-sex relationship, this thread has been hugely eye-opening - and in no small part because we've recently had a few near-arguments about the facts that (for the most part) I clean the apartment and he plans our social outings ...and we both were feeling put-upon by these tasks.
posted by psoas at 9:18 AM on July 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by psoas at 9:18 AM on July 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
The Carolyn Hax column this morning was really interesting to read after reading this thread last night (and especially flex's contribution, which is one of the first comments on metafilter to ever make me cry). As she puts it:
posted by iminurmefi at 9:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [26 favorites]
As you know, it’s not about cake, it’s about being treated like wallpaper in the lives of the ones you love most.I don't have much to add that hasn't been said better above. I feel like my partner and I have tried to be very conscious and thoughtful about not reproducing sexist patterns as we became parents, and there's some places we've done really well--especially around arranging our routines so that the endless scutwork involved with caring for a little person is relatively equally distributed--but the emotional labor piece is not equal. Not so much between the two of us or between us and our son, but the work of maintaining warm relationships with grandparents and aunts and uncles. I think if you asked him, he'd say he didn't care and it wasn't important to him, and so many of you have given me a new way to look at that. So thanks.
posted by iminurmefi at 9:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [26 favorites]
You know who does the labor to keep all that together? The women.
A few years ago, a group my kids are in had a Valentine's Day party, and I could not explain to my husband why I was in such dread about addressing 40 little cards, making an ingredient-labeled allergen-free lunch item to share, packing plates and utensils, getting the kids and the food to the location in bad weather, and attending the party. He thought it was a nice thing for the kids, as long as he didn't have to participate.
The reality (cribbed from an email to my best friend, just after): Take one small, well-heated room and add 40 children, 20 mommies [no dads, iirc], close-set tables and chairs, 40 valentine mailboxes and a hungry mob trying to stuff the correct valentines into each mailbox. Welcome to my special hell. I get my kids fed, then get them seconds, and wait until the mob has cleared out a bit before I try mailbox stuffing. The organizer says it's time to collect mailboxes and I have so many cards that I can't see whose is whose without laying them out in front of me. I dive under a table, spread them out on the floor and yell to my son "Whose name do you see?" Under the table, my curses get a little bit louder because *I cannot get out now,* thanks to all of the little legs blocking my way. I am stuck, with a handful of motherfucking valentines, under a motherfucking table, in a motherfucking LIBRARY. Organization, people, do you speak it?
The implication that I am supposed to be happy about this extra unpaid work, good at it, and gracious about it because I'm a woman and that I am judged to be damaged/not doing it right if I'm NOT happy about it, also because I'm a woman, is maddening.
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [55 favorites]
A few years ago, a group my kids are in had a Valentine's Day party, and I could not explain to my husband why I was in such dread about addressing 40 little cards, making an ingredient-labeled allergen-free lunch item to share, packing plates and utensils, getting the kids and the food to the location in bad weather, and attending the party. He thought it was a nice thing for the kids, as long as he didn't have to participate.
The reality (cribbed from an email to my best friend, just after): Take one small, well-heated room and add 40 children, 20 mommies [no dads, iirc], close-set tables and chairs, 40 valentine mailboxes and a hungry mob trying to stuff the correct valentines into each mailbox. Welcome to my special hell. I get my kids fed, then get them seconds, and wait until the mob has cleared out a bit before I try mailbox stuffing. The organizer says it's time to collect mailboxes and I have so many cards that I can't see whose is whose without laying them out in front of me. I dive under a table, spread them out on the floor and yell to my son "Whose name do you see?" Under the table, my curses get a little bit louder because *I cannot get out now,* thanks to all of the little legs blocking my way. I am stuck, with a handful of motherfucking valentines, under a motherfucking table, in a motherfucking LIBRARY. Organization, people, do you speak it?
The implication that I am supposed to be happy about this extra unpaid work, good at it, and gracious about it because I'm a woman and that I am judged to be damaged/not doing it right if I'm NOT happy about it, also because I'm a woman, is maddening.
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [55 favorites]
But even better would be if there wasn't the expectation that anyone did any of it, because these tasks-- absolutely not necessary for a civilized society-- didn't exist.
I think a lot of those tasks ARE necessary for a civilised society. I have a ...troubled... relationship with my in-laws. Mostly relating to the fact that they did not see the value in teaching their son the importance of emotional labour, their expectation that I would do 100% of the emotional labour in maintaining their relationship to their son and grandchildren, and my refusal to do so. So, they, in effect have no relationship with their grandchildren by their own (and their son's) choice.
For instance, they recently saw the youngest grandchild for a few hours after eight months of no contact (they live about 30 mins away) - they specially asked that it be on her birthday (which meant a lot of last minute logistical juggling) and then, while alone with her for those few hours, did not acknowledge her fifth birthday - a big deal at that age - at all (no happy birthday, no gift, denada). Because, as they later said, the MIL birthday had been ignored by their son and grandchildren (ME is who they blamed though) four months earlier so "clearly our family does not see the importance of anyone's birthday" (they are well aware that my husband has also never remembered my birthday in 20 years, so it wasn't like he specifically excluded them).
I don't care about their feelings, but the impact on my child, that she sees other children her age have several loving grandparents that at least say "happy birthday" while she has one set that purposefully ignores her and she finds it is very hurtful. That kind of childhood rejection and trauma, if it was not soothed by other people in her life that love her, is rife in the stories of people that cause trauma to others as adults.
Emotional labour is not specific acts like writing christmas cards, arranging visits and dressing the kids in funny clothes. It is putting the energy, emotion, empathy, and effort into caring for someone else; acknowledging they are human, they have needs, and subsiding their own feelings in order to prioritise someone else. That IS necessary for a civilised society, community, or social group.
If everyone always puts themselves first, no matter what, we end up with dysfunctional people in unhealthy communities that vote in self-serving politicians that create laws that benefit the few, have increased crime rates, and environmental degregation.
posted by saucysault at 9:45 AM on July 16, 2015 [119 favorites]
I think a lot of those tasks ARE necessary for a civilised society. I have a ...troubled... relationship with my in-laws. Mostly relating to the fact that they did not see the value in teaching their son the importance of emotional labour, their expectation that I would do 100% of the emotional labour in maintaining their relationship to their son and grandchildren, and my refusal to do so. So, they, in effect have no relationship with their grandchildren by their own (and their son's) choice.
For instance, they recently saw the youngest grandchild for a few hours after eight months of no contact (they live about 30 mins away) - they specially asked that it be on her birthday (which meant a lot of last minute logistical juggling) and then, while alone with her for those few hours, did not acknowledge her fifth birthday - a big deal at that age - at all (no happy birthday, no gift, denada). Because, as they later said, the MIL birthday had been ignored by their son and grandchildren (ME is who they blamed though) four months earlier so "clearly our family does not see the importance of anyone's birthday" (they are well aware that my husband has also never remembered my birthday in 20 years, so it wasn't like he specifically excluded them).
I don't care about their feelings, but the impact on my child, that she sees other children her age have several loving grandparents that at least say "happy birthday" while she has one set that purposefully ignores her and she finds it is very hurtful. That kind of childhood rejection and trauma, if it was not soothed by other people in her life that love her, is rife in the stories of people that cause trauma to others as adults.
Emotional labour is not specific acts like writing christmas cards, arranging visits and dressing the kids in funny clothes. It is putting the energy, emotion, empathy, and effort into caring for someone else; acknowledging they are human, they have needs, and subsiding their own feelings in order to prioritise someone else. That IS necessary for a civilised society, community, or social group.
If everyone always puts themselves first, no matter what, we end up with dysfunctional people in unhealthy communities that vote in self-serving politicians that create laws that benefit the few, have increased crime rates, and environmental degregation.
posted by saucysault at 9:45 AM on July 16, 2015 [119 favorites]
I'm in a relationship with another woman and this thread is being a whole different unusual-for-me way to think about some of this stuff. My partner was had some disabled-level mental health issues for a while that took a few years to climb back from. At the start of this year she really hit the "not just better than before but actually BETTER" level and now I've been figuring out how to handle a lot of this emotional labor and division of responsibilities. Because for years I was handling all of it because I could, and now we need to figure out what our new division of labor will be. I hadn't really thought about some of this as "emotional labor", but it's a helpful framework to look at things through.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:46 AM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 9:46 AM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
When this is pointed out to the men, the response is not "Maybe I could be more thoughtful," it's "Well that's dumb and a waste of your time" (very much like the birthday cards discussion).
I come across this often as well, and usually from the very same men who spend the rest of their time lamenting that they don't have close friends, and why is the world so stressful and how come nobody ever stops to think about THEM.
The disconnect, it would be hilarious if it weren't basically destroying the joy of life for everyone all the fucking time.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:47 AM on July 16, 2015 [90 favorites]
I come across this often as well, and usually from the very same men who spend the rest of their time lamenting that they don't have close friends, and why is the world so stressful and how come nobody ever stops to think about THEM.
The disconnect, it would be hilarious if it weren't basically destroying the joy of life for everyone all the fucking time.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:47 AM on July 16, 2015 [90 favorites]
Because, as they later said, the MIL birthday had been ignored by their son and grandchildren (ME is who they blamed though) four months earlier so "clearly our family does not see the importance of anyone's birthday" (they are well aware that my husband has also never remembered my birthday in 20 years, so it wasn't like he specifically excluded them).
jesus fucking christ, what tediously smug juvenile shitstains these people are. may their asses become irresistible to furious hornets.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:52 AM on July 16, 2015 [79 favorites]
jesus fucking christ, what tediously smug juvenile shitstains these people are. may their asses become irresistible to furious hornets.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:52 AM on July 16, 2015 [79 favorites]
Work is work, whether paid or not, whether it makes you feel good or not. It's ridiculous to think raising your children and taking care of a household isn't "serious" work, or should be expected to be its own reward. Doesn't mean it's not also great and maybe even commendable when someone does find the work required personally satisfying, too. But labor is labor.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:59 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 9:59 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have to admit that I still toy around with the "are women just innately better at this stuff?" hypothesis because the men I love can be so emotionally... absent? that it's much easier to explain it to myself as innate biological difference than laziness or subconscious knowledge that "incompetence" leads to better results. I think, rationally, that it's bullshit. (Especially since many men seem to suddenly figure it out at age, like, 40. And then blog about it.) But how else to deal with the cognitive dissonance?
One thing I've realized is that "women are just better at housework, they SEE those things" is really an ackowledgment of emotional labor-- not only caring about all that shit, but having the emotional maturity to know that caring about that shit leads to an easier, healthier lifestyle. I am emotionally mature enough to know that a shitty environment leads to being late to work, eating dinner at 10:00pm after cleaning up the kitchen/dishes, and having nowhere do put my laptop when I work from home. So I keep tabs on it and do it as I go. I know a lot of men who would prefer not to cultivate that maturity and just let things go to shit and then have their girlfriends give them instructions on how to vacuum until they just give up and do it themselves so it gets done 2x faster.
At some point I realized I was being a huge nag about dinner, because I cooked dinner every night, because when my boyfriend cooked dinner it took forever (see: not cooking for himself his whole life) and we were dieting and I didn't want to eat snacks all evening waiting for dinner to be done at 9:00 o'clock. Then I realized hey-- I can just let go. I can ask him to make dinner, and I can eat a peanut butter sandwich or something, and save my leftovers for lunch the next day. It was a great revelation in terms of my personal mental health-- I got fed, I didn't have to always be the cook, and I didn't have to be mad at my boyfriend. But even in that situation I was just saying, "hey, if I completely let go and eat like a kindergartener, I don't have to be mad at my boyfriend!" It's just so sad that that's the solution. I don't get a warm, homecooked meal at a regular dinner time. That's not how heterosexual reciprocity works. I get a peanut butter sandwich and "peace of mind" (i.e., freedom from domestic/emotional labor). Getting the homecooked meal and the freedom from emotional labor is male privilege.
(Now my boyfriend is much faster at cooking, though not as fast as me, but I taught him a lot of skills and worked with him to make simpler dinner ideas/menus and try to simplify grocery shopping as much as possible. He cooks dinner every night at the moment because I'm in school, and I appreciate it very very much. But I still did all that teaching and coaching and caring and orchestrating just to get things to this point.)
There was also a lot of "can you tell me what to clean? I'll clean it" that I shortcircuited by being like, know what, I don't care if shit is clean anymore. I relaxed my standards a lot. He's actually been really supportive and kind about helping around the house since I went back to school, but I don't think our entire apartment has been clean at the same time since we moved in. And we're just two young adults with barely any commute and no pets or children.
I love him very much, but I don't think he bought Christmas or birthday presents for his family until he met me and realized that I (and all my sisters) did that. So he's actually a really good guy in the sense that he wants to do that labor and be helpful and kind. But even the best kind of guy didn't have it beaten into him since he was a kid and I feel like we're lightyears apart in that sense.
Anyway, this thread is sooooo excellent.
posted by easter queen at 10:09 AM on July 16, 2015 [79 favorites]
One thing I've realized is that "women are just better at housework, they SEE those things" is really an ackowledgment of emotional labor-- not only caring about all that shit, but having the emotional maturity to know that caring about that shit leads to an easier, healthier lifestyle. I am emotionally mature enough to know that a shitty environment leads to being late to work, eating dinner at 10:00pm after cleaning up the kitchen/dishes, and having nowhere do put my laptop when I work from home. So I keep tabs on it and do it as I go. I know a lot of men who would prefer not to cultivate that maturity and just let things go to shit and then have their girlfriends give them instructions on how to vacuum until they just give up and do it themselves so it gets done 2x faster.
At some point I realized I was being a huge nag about dinner, because I cooked dinner every night, because when my boyfriend cooked dinner it took forever (see: not cooking for himself his whole life) and we were dieting and I didn't want to eat snacks all evening waiting for dinner to be done at 9:00 o'clock. Then I realized hey-- I can just let go. I can ask him to make dinner, and I can eat a peanut butter sandwich or something, and save my leftovers for lunch the next day. It was a great revelation in terms of my personal mental health-- I got fed, I didn't have to always be the cook, and I didn't have to be mad at my boyfriend. But even in that situation I was just saying, "hey, if I completely let go and eat like a kindergartener, I don't have to be mad at my boyfriend!" It's just so sad that that's the solution. I don't get a warm, homecooked meal at a regular dinner time. That's not how heterosexual reciprocity works. I get a peanut butter sandwich and "peace of mind" (i.e., freedom from domestic/emotional labor). Getting the homecooked meal and the freedom from emotional labor is male privilege.
(Now my boyfriend is much faster at cooking, though not as fast as me, but I taught him a lot of skills and worked with him to make simpler dinner ideas/menus and try to simplify grocery shopping as much as possible. He cooks dinner every night at the moment because I'm in school, and I appreciate it very very much. But I still did all that teaching and coaching and caring and orchestrating just to get things to this point.)
There was also a lot of "can you tell me what to clean? I'll clean it" that I shortcircuited by being like, know what, I don't care if shit is clean anymore. I relaxed my standards a lot. He's actually been really supportive and kind about helping around the house since I went back to school, but I don't think our entire apartment has been clean at the same time since we moved in. And we're just two young adults with barely any commute and no pets or children.
I love him very much, but I don't think he bought Christmas or birthday presents for his family until he met me and realized that I (and all my sisters) did that. So he's actually a really good guy in the sense that he wants to do that labor and be helpful and kind. But even the best kind of guy didn't have it beaten into him since he was a kid and I feel like we're lightyears apart in that sense.
Anyway, this thread is sooooo excellent.
posted by easter queen at 10:09 AM on July 16, 2015 [79 favorites]
This thread has added new significance for me to the "bread and roses" labor song. Yes, it is bread we fight for, but we fight for roses too!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:17 AM on July 16, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 10:17 AM on July 16, 2015 [24 favorites]
A thing I must have said three hundred thousand times in my dating life is, "when will I find a man who doesn't hate a) his entire family, and b) every holiday in existence with the fire of a thousand suns?"
I mean I've barely ever MET one, much less dated one. And it has always been really boggling to me, because for the most part the families of the men I know and love have been perfectly fine.* Not always tremendous and wonderful and perfect, but loving and basically functional. And yet the hatred! It is deep! The pulling of teeth to convince my ex husband that yes, he probably should invite his own perfectly harmless and loving parents to our wedding, and that yes, I was inviting mine, because I fucking love them and they're my parents. The ridiculous arguments over holidays that always ended with me spending them sans partner, even when married.
After this thread, I now wonder whether the deep hatred doesn't come from a core knowledge and guilt that these situations --holidays, families-- require emotional labor from them, and that they have never, ever been willing to do that labor.
*I know, I know, you can never see behind closed doors etc., but it's not like these men ever articulated any actual complaints about their families. And I am absolutely not talking about the people who come from fractious divorces and narcissistic parents and other truly heinous things.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:19 AM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
I mean I've barely ever MET one, much less dated one. And it has always been really boggling to me, because for the most part the families of the men I know and love have been perfectly fine.* Not always tremendous and wonderful and perfect, but loving and basically functional. And yet the hatred! It is deep! The pulling of teeth to convince my ex husband that yes, he probably should invite his own perfectly harmless and loving parents to our wedding, and that yes, I was inviting mine, because I fucking love them and they're my parents. The ridiculous arguments over holidays that always ended with me spending them sans partner, even when married.
After this thread, I now wonder whether the deep hatred doesn't come from a core knowledge and guilt that these situations --holidays, families-- require emotional labor from them, and that they have never, ever been willing to do that labor.
*I know, I know, you can never see behind closed doors etc., but it's not like these men ever articulated any actual complaints about their families. And I am absolutely not talking about the people who come from fractious divorces and narcissistic parents and other truly heinous things.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:19 AM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
This reminds me of an argument I had with an ex that went like this:
Me: I have to ask you to do everything.
Him: Yes, but I do everything you ask!
Me : Yes, but I have to ask you to do everything!
He was never able to understand why I was bothered.
posted by dotgirl at 10:22 AM on July 16, 2015 [146 favorites]
Me: I have to ask you to do everything.
Him: Yes, but I do everything you ask!
Me : Yes, but I have to ask you to do everything!
He was never able to understand why I was bothered.
posted by dotgirl at 10:22 AM on July 16, 2015 [146 favorites]
Anyway I feel myself handing out cookies in my own comment but aughh there's just no other way to live.
Another thing: men in long-term relationships steadfastly REFUSING to see a therapist, even when it's convenient, even when someone else makes the appointments, even when it's free. Why? Because they've got a built in therapist-- their partner! Plus free sex therapy or whatever. (They'd rather have their wives/girlfriends deal with their emotional shit, both through looooong conversations and actually putting up with their negative behaviors and stubbornness.)
posted by easter queen at 10:25 AM on July 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
Another thing: men in long-term relationships steadfastly REFUSING to see a therapist, even when it's convenient, even when someone else makes the appointments, even when it's free. Why? Because they've got a built in therapist-- their partner! Plus free sex therapy or whatever. (They'd rather have their wives/girlfriends deal with their emotional shit, both through looooong conversations and actually putting up with their negative behaviors and stubbornness.)
posted by easter queen at 10:25 AM on July 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
>>Now I can't stop thinking what the world would be like if men started treating everyone with the same care and concern they show women they're trying to get into bed.
>Depressingly enough, the number of comments in this thread alone about the behavior of husbands and boyfriends (ex- or current) who assume women do all the emotional labor is evidence that we already live in this world . . . . . .
I think the idea was more that men do this work for women they're interested in -- not yet dating or married to or sleeping with, but crushing on -- and then often stop once they're in an actual relationship. That sort of constant "I wonder what she's into and how I can find a way to have a conversation with her and what movie would she want to see and what should I say that's not boring? Etc." thinking about someone else's needs and likes and interests is expected, in many ways, to be the default state of women all the time, while men just seem to do it with brand-new romantic interests.
posted by jaguar at 10:32 AM on July 16, 2015 [51 favorites]
>Depressingly enough, the number of comments in this thread alone about the behavior of husbands and boyfriends (ex- or current) who assume women do all the emotional labor is evidence that we already live in this world . . . . . .
I think the idea was more that men do this work for women they're interested in -- not yet dating or married to or sleeping with, but crushing on -- and then often stop once they're in an actual relationship. That sort of constant "I wonder what she's into and how I can find a way to have a conversation with her and what movie would she want to see and what should I say that's not boring? Etc." thinking about someone else's needs and likes and interests is expected, in many ways, to be the default state of women all the time, while men just seem to do it with brand-new romantic interests.
posted by jaguar at 10:32 AM on July 16, 2015 [51 favorites]
thinking about someone else's needs and likes and interests is expected, in many ways, to be the default state of women all the time, while men just seem to do it with brand-new romantic interests.
Actually if that thread about the live-tweeted horrible date is any indication, a number of men have now abandoned this practice even for brand-new romantic interests.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:35 AM on July 16, 2015 [22 favorites]
Actually if that thread about the live-tweeted horrible date is any indication, a number of men have now abandoned this practice even for brand-new romantic interests.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:35 AM on July 16, 2015 [22 favorites]
Actually if that thread about the live-tweeted horrible date is any indication, a number of men have now abandoned this practice even for brand-new romantic interests.
Ha, yes, I thought about that right after I posted. Assume my comment was more about generally good guys.
posted by jaguar at 10:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ha, yes, I thought about that right after I posted. Assume my comment was more about generally good guys.
posted by jaguar at 10:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am seeing so much of myself in these responses - but it's the husband's side that I'm seeing myself in. Probably because I'm ADHD-PI.
I'm grateful that I married a guy who takes on his share of the emotional labor, otherwise nothing would ever get done in our household
posted by Lucinda at 10:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm grateful that I married a guy who takes on his share of the emotional labor, otherwise nothing would ever get done in our household
posted by Lucinda at 10:43 AM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
This article also made me think of all the unpaid labor involved with teaching, still conceived of as "women's work" even in fields where it isn't. The same attitudes--dressed as compliments, dressed as pedestals--underlay justifications for not paying K-12 and college instructors anywhere near what we should earn.
posted by wintersweet at 10:48 AM on July 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 10:48 AM on July 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
I'm not sure what to take from this thread but that everyone really, quietly, secretly despises everyone else.
Ah, when men realize that women are actually not content doing all the bullshit they are assigned to... kind of like when we have Tales of Sex Work and men get REALLY MAD that sex workers do not have infinite internal compassion and patience for their clients.
When we talk about this stuff, it always becomes about the failings and negativity of women.
posted by easter queen at 10:55 AM on July 16, 2015 [110 favorites]
Ah, when men realize that women are actually not content doing all the bullshit they are assigned to... kind of like when we have Tales of Sex Work and men get REALLY MAD that sex workers do not have infinite internal compassion and patience for their clients.
When we talk about this stuff, it always becomes about the failings and negativity of women.
posted by easter queen at 10:55 AM on July 16, 2015 [110 favorites]
PS: Women already know that men (nonquietly, nonsecretly) despise them, because we hear constantly about how annoying we are with our needs and interests and "nagging."
posted by easter queen at 10:56 AM on July 16, 2015 [144 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 10:56 AM on July 16, 2015 [144 favorites]
Another outgrowth of the assumption that women "do" emotional labor for their husbands/partners is all the cultural weirdness around MILs that doesn't exist almost at all on the other side (with husbands and their MIL / FIL). I often joke that I'm the "bad" daughter-in-law compared to my brother-in-law's wife, and it's kind of interesting that I feel like that despite being on civil terms with my in-laws and actually trying really hard to make sure they continue to have a close and regular relationship with my kid despite challenging health issues on their side.
What earns me the self-imposed "bad" label is my MIL's disappointment that we don't have a close relationship independent of my husband. (She was very proud of the fact that she was close to his girlfriends all through high school and college, and they'd continue to come to her for advice even after they broke up with him.) I regularly push my husband to be the one communicating with her about logistics around getting together, and she reads that as equivalent to me giving her the social cold shoulder or being stand-offish. Not unreasonably, I might add--culturally I think I am doing the equivalent of giving her the cold shoulder, which sucks, but slightly less than knuckling under to the pressure to be the social director of my marriage.
On the other hand, I can't remember the last time my husband directly talked to my mother or my father with me being there--conservatively, he's involved in maybe 5% of the conversations I have with my parents, and always in social situations where I'm with him. Yet my parents would probably say they have a great relationship with my husband; for him, being civil and tagging along to most family events more than meets expectations.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:57 AM on July 16, 2015 [66 favorites]
What earns me the self-imposed "bad" label is my MIL's disappointment that we don't have a close relationship independent of my husband. (She was very proud of the fact that she was close to his girlfriends all through high school and college, and they'd continue to come to her for advice even after they broke up with him.) I regularly push my husband to be the one communicating with her about logistics around getting together, and she reads that as equivalent to me giving her the social cold shoulder or being stand-offish. Not unreasonably, I might add--culturally I think I am doing the equivalent of giving her the cold shoulder, which sucks, but slightly less than knuckling under to the pressure to be the social director of my marriage.
On the other hand, I can't remember the last time my husband directly talked to my mother or my father with me being there--conservatively, he's involved in maybe 5% of the conversations I have with my parents, and always in social situations where I'm with him. Yet my parents would probably say they have a great relationship with my husband; for him, being civil and tagging along to most family events more than meets expectations.
posted by iminurmefi at 10:57 AM on July 16, 2015 [66 favorites]
I find it so interesting how many of us pull from our personal lives when emotional work also has such a huge impact on our working lives - where is it clearly necessary work, but not valued or compensated, let alone acknowledged. Because Canada seems to have a different framework for evaluating jobs (due to the pay equity legislation that began to include emotional labour as a skill that could be evaluated a few decades ado) a lot of under-paid, female-gendered jobs in the United States (specifically personal care workers, teaching, social work, and librarians) are MUCH better paid in Canada. The flip side is that male-gendered jobs like IT often pay much less. In Ontario, teaching elementary school pays in the top 5% of jobs, Librarians and social workers are almost there as well, and Personal care workers are beginning to catch up with living wages. The challenge now is actually that because these jobs are now well-paid the entrants are now attracted to the money/prestige and not the emotional labour part of the position.
Teaching these skills is so hard. My son is hugely empathetic, yet teaching him to do the equal emotional labour of his sisters has been a challenge. Whereas his sisters use their empathy to ackowledge problems and find solutions, often his empathy turns into seeking comfort from others (gendered female) now he has all these *feels* to deal with (behaviour that has been unfortuinately role modeled by this father).
And that wallpaper link? Ouch. I am consciously trying to raise my children to NOT accept that behaviour from friends in the hope they make good choices in romantic partners despite our maladaptive social conditioning.
posted by saucysault at 10:58 AM on July 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
Teaching these skills is so hard. My son is hugely empathetic, yet teaching him to do the equal emotional labour of his sisters has been a challenge. Whereas his sisters use their empathy to ackowledge problems and find solutions, often his empathy turns into seeking comfort from others (gendered female) now he has all these *feels* to deal with (behaviour that has been unfortuinately role modeled by this father).
And that wallpaper link? Ouch. I am consciously trying to raise my children to NOT accept that behaviour from friends in the hope they make good choices in romantic partners despite our maladaptive social conditioning.
posted by saucysault at 10:58 AM on July 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
I have historically been pretty terrible at this stuff because (as commented elsewhere), I grew up without another woman in the house. And my dad is AWFUL at this stuff, has no friends, has almost nothing expected of him (let's not get into how much praise he got for being a single dad in a way that a single mother would never have got, when he was neglectful as shit). I had nowhere to learn what I was meant to be doing.
I have had (hetero) romantic relationships go to pieces because neither of us had any idea how to have conversations with any emotional content. I have had same-sex relationships falter at the start because I was the 'man', effectively and it was frustrating for my partner. I have had friendships feel way more difficult to navigate because I didn't really do any of the keeping in touch stuff that's expected from me. It was pretty clear I wasn't very good at being a woman, and people let me know it in a million snide ways.
But you know what I did? A fuckload of therapy, and a course in active listening, and counselling course, and now I'm all skilled up, way better at it all and massively, colossally irritated by all the men I encounter who just can't be arsed with that work. It can be learned guys, I am living proof.
posted by theseldomseenkid at 11:05 AM on July 16, 2015 [87 favorites]
I have had (hetero) romantic relationships go to pieces because neither of us had any idea how to have conversations with any emotional content. I have had same-sex relationships falter at the start because I was the 'man', effectively and it was frustrating for my partner. I have had friendships feel way more difficult to navigate because I didn't really do any of the keeping in touch stuff that's expected from me. It was pretty clear I wasn't very good at being a woman, and people let me know it in a million snide ways.
But you know what I did? A fuckload of therapy, and a course in active listening, and counselling course, and now I'm all skilled up, way better at it all and massively, colossally irritated by all the men I encounter who just can't be arsed with that work. It can be learned guys, I am living proof.
posted by theseldomseenkid at 11:05 AM on July 16, 2015 [87 favorites]
I have to admit that I still toy around with the "are women just innately better at this stuff?" hypothesis because the men I love can be so emotionally... absent? that it's much easier to explain it to myself as innate biological difference than laziness or subconscious knowledge that "incompetence" leads to better results.
Some people in general are probably naturally better at emotional work than others, but I think an awful lot of it is just plain old exposure, training, and practice. It's really hard as an adult to learn to notice or remember something you are not already accustomed to noticing and remembering. That doesn't mean you get a pass on improving your skills, just that it takes more effort and you should be ready to overcome some internal resistance along the way. Right now, I'm having a hell of a time enhancing and expanding my tooth-care regimen because the old simpler way is just soooooooooooo habitual, but I try to keep slugging away at it because it's nice to have teeth.
I have several men friends who were just totally surprised and delighted to discover, after they became parents, that they like children and caring for children and spending time with children. It's not that they previously disliked children, just that so many men never have any regular or lengthy exposure to kids or practice dealing with them as older caretakers, only as siblings and peers when they're boys.
If all of us had consistent childhood practice at emotional labor and exposure to experiencing many adult men like Mr. Kathryn T. doing emotional work, then those of us who are not so great at it would probably find it easier even if it's not our forte.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
Some people in general are probably naturally better at emotional work than others, but I think an awful lot of it is just plain old exposure, training, and practice. It's really hard as an adult to learn to notice or remember something you are not already accustomed to noticing and remembering. That doesn't mean you get a pass on improving your skills, just that it takes more effort and you should be ready to overcome some internal resistance along the way. Right now, I'm having a hell of a time enhancing and expanding my tooth-care regimen because the old simpler way is just soooooooooooo habitual, but I try to keep slugging away at it because it's nice to have teeth.
I have several men friends who were just totally surprised and delighted to discover, after they became parents, that they like children and caring for children and spending time with children. It's not that they previously disliked children, just that so many men never have any regular or lengthy exposure to kids or practice dealing with them as older caretakers, only as siblings and peers when they're boys.
If all of us had consistent childhood practice at emotional labor and exposure to experiencing many adult men like Mr. Kathryn T. doing emotional work, then those of us who are not so great at it would probably find it easier even if it's not our forte.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
I've been having interesting conversations with a friend who was working as an adjunct professor (which, unlike tenured professors, is a majority-female profession) about how women in jobs that require a great deal of emotional work (like teaching and mental health) are so often told that it's ok we're not getting paid very much because we're "making a difference." A difference in other people's lives, mind you. She posted something on Facebook about her lack of job security, lack of benefits, and ridiculously low pay and how these are systemic issues within the university system, and a number of her former students responded with, "But you made such a difference in my life!" -- as if that were a logical response to her economic argument. And I think that women who push back against the assumption that helping others is reward enough by asking to be fairly compensated for their work get thought of as un-natural. Like women are so naturally giving that we're happiest when we're being everyone's mother, giving giving giving without expecting anything in return.
posted by jaguar at 11:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [95 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 11:11 AM on July 16, 2015 [95 favorites]
and a number of her former students responded with, "But you made such a difference in my life!"
good, then they can pay her deductible.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:13 AM on July 16, 2015 [62 favorites]
good, then they can pay her deductible.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:13 AM on July 16, 2015 [62 favorites]
One of my favorite things is how men who are otherwise technologically capable men suddenly become helpless luddite infants when technology and emotional labor collide.
There are valid reasons to not want to have a Facebook account, for example. But my father likes to brag about his refusal to have a FB account to everyone he knows, then ask me to use my account to find phone numbers and email addresses, send messages on his behalf, download pictures he can't see otherwise, find out where people live, etc. He likes being unreachable to anyone else*, but he sees no problem with outsourcing the admin work of emotional labor to me, and then asking me why it is such a big deal when I point out what he's doing.
See also: men who brag about never answering their phones, who say they are too busy to check their email more than once a week, who refuse to RSVP to any invitations that are sent via FB or Evite because "it's annoying", etc.
I was once in a car accident on the way to a family dinner, and the only people I had contact info at this dinner were several of my male relatives in attendance. I couldn't reach any of them. I ended up having to text my female cousin who lived in a different state, ask her if she had the number for one of the female relatives who was attending this dinner, and asking her if she could let them know (via this other female relative) that I would get to the restaurant once the police officer told me I could leave the scene of the accident.
When I got there, I was shaken up and pissed off that I hadn't been able to reach anyone after having a car accident. "Your phones aren't much good for reaching you if they are turned off," I pointed out. Everyone laughed. Ha ha.
*He sometimes complains about how people never get in contact with him, but when I point out that he has purposefully made himself as hard to reach as possible, he changes the subject.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [76 favorites]
There are valid reasons to not want to have a Facebook account, for example. But my father likes to brag about his refusal to have a FB account to everyone he knows, then ask me to use my account to find phone numbers and email addresses, send messages on his behalf, download pictures he can't see otherwise, find out where people live, etc. He likes being unreachable to anyone else*, but he sees no problem with outsourcing the admin work of emotional labor to me, and then asking me why it is such a big deal when I point out what he's doing.
See also: men who brag about never answering their phones, who say they are too busy to check their email more than once a week, who refuse to RSVP to any invitations that are sent via FB or Evite because "it's annoying", etc.
I was once in a car accident on the way to a family dinner, and the only people I had contact info at this dinner were several of my male relatives in attendance. I couldn't reach any of them. I ended up having to text my female cousin who lived in a different state, ask her if she had the number for one of the female relatives who was attending this dinner, and asking her if she could let them know (via this other female relative) that I would get to the restaurant once the police officer told me I could leave the scene of the accident.
When I got there, I was shaken up and pissed off that I hadn't been able to reach anyone after having a car accident. "Your phones aren't much good for reaching you if they are turned off," I pointed out. Everyone laughed. Ha ha.
*He sometimes complains about how people never get in contact with him, but when I point out that he has purposefully made himself as hard to reach as possible, he changes the subject.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:14 AM on July 16, 2015 [76 favorites]
I find it so interesting how many of us pull from our personal lives when emotional work also has such a huge impact on our working lives - where is it clearly necessary work, but not valued or compensated, let alone acknowledged.
I literally just pulled this comment up after the following incident at work: I'm in a cube pool of five people, and we're all having a bad day and all seem to be somewhat grumpy. I had to run out to a drug store anyway, and while I was there, I picked up a big variety-pack bag of Ghiradelli chocolate, and when I got back to the office I plunked it down on the table in the middle of our desks and announced that it was for the five of us.
....I'm chalking it up to everyone being all grumpy and preoccupied today, but I'm still a bit taken aback that not a single person has said "thank you".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on July 16, 2015 [30 favorites]
I literally just pulled this comment up after the following incident at work: I'm in a cube pool of five people, and we're all having a bad day and all seem to be somewhat grumpy. I had to run out to a drug store anyway, and while I was there, I picked up a big variety-pack bag of Ghiradelli chocolate, and when I got back to the office I plunked it down on the table in the middle of our desks and announced that it was for the five of us.
....I'm chalking it up to everyone being all grumpy and preoccupied today, but I'm still a bit taken aback that not a single person has said "thank you".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:15 AM on July 16, 2015 [30 favorites]
Around this time last year I basically said "ok, I am noping out of a lot of things unless and until there's a more equitable division of labor in our household". I proposed we each write down what we felt our personal domains of responsibility were, and then make a joint document about an idealized situation that was balanced and fair. Then we'd work toward that. My document had nine sections, including pet care, house/lawn care, finances, blah blah. And the largest section was "social/logistical stuff". I was organizing everything about every social outing for all members of the household. I maintained the social calendar and made sure everyone made it to appointments on time. I was cooking all the meals and planning any gathering for friends at the house. I was buying all the presents for holidays and birthdays - I even had reminders in my calendar to send my male primary partner a list of things I might like for my birthday, because he kept saying "it sneaks up on me" and then feeling lousy for not getting me anything (dude. It's the same day every year. It isn't a ninja). I was buying presents for his sweetie (who was also living with us) and making sure to get enough that some goodies could be from me, and some from him. I took care of everyone when they got sick. I worked out the logistics of who had the vehicle when, in ways to least inconvenience anyone. It went on and on.
When we showed each other the 'idealized' domains of responsibility documents, the "social / logistical stuff" category was completely gone from Mr. Mirror's list. Just not there at all. When I pointed it out he said he was only focused on "real" things that needed to get done.
And so the next time he asked me "why didn't you remind me?!" about something, I pointed out that it wasn't "real" work that needed to be done, and I had just gone with the assumption that he could remember to look at the calendar himself to see when his dentist appointment was, or whatever. And he had a level-up moment and said "oh. Shit. I'm sorry" and now we handle things more equitably.
It was damned hard to just let those things go, though, even for a little while - I felt a sense of almost panic not doing that work, actively sitting back and saying "ok, you're a grown-ass man, you say this isn't a thing anyone needs to concern themselves with, so fine, let's see how that works out." In the end, it was work that needed to be done (hey, it sure is nice to see our friends ever), it did and does require effort, and he's a lot more appreciative of just how much I was doing then, and aware of what he's asking when he asks me to do these things now.
I wish I'd had this language ten years ago, this concept of "emotional work" and the idea that it was valuable, that making things run smoothly and making our lives just be nice was a skill I was being undervalued for. I could have maybe not run myself into the ground actually trying to do it invisibly, striving for an ideal of never being noticed, but everything somehow being wonderful. That's the poisonous femininity I was raised into and I'm thrilled to be rejecting it today. I'm just glad I noticed it, eventually. It took a while. Hell, and I don't even have kids. Putting actual small human beings who are dependent into the mix just serves to make it harder, I'm certain.
It's hard to see, and it's easy to fall into these patterns - society pushes it onto us, we take it onto ourselves, and sometimes don't even notice. I didn't get to the state where I was being the Invisible Logistical Wonder Woman overnight. I've been calling myself a feminist since I was eleven years old, but I didn't notice that my own desire to "just help out" was toxic. Nobody ever stopped me back then and said "hey, are you doing all right? You don't have to do this much, you know." I just thought it was what I was supposed to do. No, instead, the refrain I heard from others was always "wouldn't it be nice if..." alongside some version of "please do more." Reading this thread made my heart lighter, even while I'm frustrated at just how pervasive this shit is. It's not easy to get to a place where emotional labor is even noticed, much less valued. I know we're not fully there yet in my household, though it's worlds better now than it was last year, and progress has been faster after that first "oh shit" moment.
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:21 AM on July 16, 2015 [119 favorites]
When we showed each other the 'idealized' domains of responsibility documents, the "social / logistical stuff" category was completely gone from Mr. Mirror's list. Just not there at all. When I pointed it out he said he was only focused on "real" things that needed to get done.
And so the next time he asked me "why didn't you remind me?!" about something, I pointed out that it wasn't "real" work that needed to be done, and I had just gone with the assumption that he could remember to look at the calendar himself to see when his dentist appointment was, or whatever. And he had a level-up moment and said "oh. Shit. I'm sorry" and now we handle things more equitably.
It was damned hard to just let those things go, though, even for a little while - I felt a sense of almost panic not doing that work, actively sitting back and saying "ok, you're a grown-ass man, you say this isn't a thing anyone needs to concern themselves with, so fine, let's see how that works out." In the end, it was work that needed to be done (hey, it sure is nice to see our friends ever), it did and does require effort, and he's a lot more appreciative of just how much I was doing then, and aware of what he's asking when he asks me to do these things now.
I wish I'd had this language ten years ago, this concept of "emotional work" and the idea that it was valuable, that making things run smoothly and making our lives just be nice was a skill I was being undervalued for. I could have maybe not run myself into the ground actually trying to do it invisibly, striving for an ideal of never being noticed, but everything somehow being wonderful. That's the poisonous femininity I was raised into and I'm thrilled to be rejecting it today. I'm just glad I noticed it, eventually. It took a while. Hell, and I don't even have kids. Putting actual small human beings who are dependent into the mix just serves to make it harder, I'm certain.
It's hard to see, and it's easy to fall into these patterns - society pushes it onto us, we take it onto ourselves, and sometimes don't even notice. I didn't get to the state where I was being the Invisible Logistical Wonder Woman overnight. I've been calling myself a feminist since I was eleven years old, but I didn't notice that my own desire to "just help out" was toxic. Nobody ever stopped me back then and said "hey, are you doing all right? You don't have to do this much, you know." I just thought it was what I was supposed to do. No, instead, the refrain I heard from others was always "wouldn't it be nice if..." alongside some version of "please do more." Reading this thread made my heart lighter, even while I'm frustrated at just how pervasive this shit is. It's not easy to get to a place where emotional labor is even noticed, much less valued. I know we're not fully there yet in my household, though it's worlds better now than it was last year, and progress has been faster after that first "oh shit" moment.
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:21 AM on July 16, 2015 [119 favorites]
I'm still a bit taken aback that not a single person has said "thank you".
We just had a (rare) all-hands meeting at work this week about showing appreciation to our coworkers. It was awkward as hell coming up with nice, useful things to say to people on the spot, but good to have the enforced practice for everyone.
If employers acknowledge emotional labor as an actual thing, it's not that hard to fit it into the usual sorts of work skills-improvement sessions if a workplace does that at all.
posted by asperity at 11:29 AM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
We just had a (rare) all-hands meeting at work this week about showing appreciation to our coworkers. It was awkward as hell coming up with nice, useful things to say to people on the spot, but good to have the enforced practice for everyone.
If employers acknowledge emotional labor as an actual thing, it's not that hard to fit it into the usual sorts of work skills-improvement sessions if a workplace does that at all.
posted by asperity at 11:29 AM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
But even better would be if there wasn't the expectation that anyone did any of it, because these tasks-- absolutely not necessary for a civilized society-- didn't exist.
They are necessary, though. All of these things, perhaps small in isolation, are basically social glue. At its most basic level, all of this emotional labour is saying to another human being "you matter. I will take my time to show you that you matter." And maintaining that glue is something that devolves mainly onto women, 24 hours a day.
It feels like most men are taught (ex- or implicitly) to do emotional work only when it gets them something they want now, whereas most women are taught to do emotional work as part of an ongoing exchange that benefits everyone.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:30 AM on July 16, 2015 [100 favorites]
They are necessary, though. All of these things, perhaps small in isolation, are basically social glue. At its most basic level, all of this emotional labour is saying to another human being "you matter. I will take my time to show you that you matter." And maintaining that glue is something that devolves mainly onto women, 24 hours a day.
It feels like most men are taught (ex- or implicitly) to do emotional work only when it gets them something they want now, whereas most women are taught to do emotional work as part of an ongoing exchange that benefits everyone.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:30 AM on July 16, 2015 [100 favorites]
I just emailed this article to my sister-in-law. Her soon-to-be-ex-husband tells everybody she's leaving him because he doesn't make enough money. It's blatantly obvious to me after a handful of discussions with her that the biggest factor is that he does zero emotional labor. (Other stuff, too, some of which rightfully involves a protection order now, but what's been leading up to it is that he checked out of doing any emotional work at all. And that it got worse the more job troubles he had, too.)
posted by immlass at 11:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by immlass at 11:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think I was suggesting that the sum total of society-wide emotional labor could be substantially reduced before then being equitably distributed between men and women. Some sorts of emotional labor are inescapable (soothing that crying child, helping that elder with their taxes), but frankly a lot of other ones feel a bit like make-work (even down to the therapeutic hearing-out of other people's (men and women's) woes at great psychoanalytic length, which does not seem like a culturally universal need that people have always had).
People have not always "needed" therapy, in the sense that it used to be a lot more culturally acceptable to take out your issues and neuroses on your wife and/or children. Therapy does have a tangible benefit-- you could say it makes you less superstitious in a way. Less afraid of this or that responsibility. Less likely to act out of fear. Confronting fears is something therapy (especially like CBT) can absolutely help with. (Or instead you can carry around the fear and be self-defeating or an abusive shithead or whatever your particular disposition is.)
I guess I'm saying that a society where my husband pays me for writing Christmas cards, reminding him to Skype with his mom, buying end-of-year presents for the teacher and keeping track of the kids' funny dress days at school doesn't seem like a great solution for me. At present, I would kind of rather he just did his half of it. But even better would be if there wasn't the expectation that anyone did any of it, because these tasks-- absolutely not necessary for a civilized society-- didn't exist. And 95% of the time, it seems as though the expectation that any relationship will be encrusted with all of these elaborate, labor-intensive interactions, as well as the punishment and judgment if one defaults in them, comes from other women.
Do you... not remember being a kid? Kids love parties. Love dressing up. They could just not have birthday parties... but that sucks. Do you like it when people remember your birthday? Do you think it's a net positive good to remember to Skype your mom, instead of realizing on her deathbed that you never appreciated her the way you should have? In what way are these things not necessary for civilized society? (PS: The pressure comes from other women because they're cognizant of the stress and pressure to not ruin the lives of everyone around them.)
posted by easter queen at 11:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
People have not always "needed" therapy, in the sense that it used to be a lot more culturally acceptable to take out your issues and neuroses on your wife and/or children. Therapy does have a tangible benefit-- you could say it makes you less superstitious in a way. Less afraid of this or that responsibility. Less likely to act out of fear. Confronting fears is something therapy (especially like CBT) can absolutely help with. (Or instead you can carry around the fear and be self-defeating or an abusive shithead or whatever your particular disposition is.)
I guess I'm saying that a society where my husband pays me for writing Christmas cards, reminding him to Skype with his mom, buying end-of-year presents for the teacher and keeping track of the kids' funny dress days at school doesn't seem like a great solution for me. At present, I would kind of rather he just did his half of it. But even better would be if there wasn't the expectation that anyone did any of it, because these tasks-- absolutely not necessary for a civilized society-- didn't exist. And 95% of the time, it seems as though the expectation that any relationship will be encrusted with all of these elaborate, labor-intensive interactions, as well as the punishment and judgment if one defaults in them, comes from other women.
Do you... not remember being a kid? Kids love parties. Love dressing up. They could just not have birthday parties... but that sucks. Do you like it when people remember your birthday? Do you think it's a net positive good to remember to Skype your mom, instead of realizing on her deathbed that you never appreciated her the way you should have? In what way are these things not necessary for civilized society? (PS: The pressure comes from other women because they're cognizant of the stress and pressure to not ruin the lives of everyone around them.)
posted by easter queen at 11:40 AM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
I now wonder whether the deep hatred doesn't come from a core knowledge and guilt that these situations --holidays, families-- require emotional labor from them, and that they have never, ever been willing to do that labor.
Holy shit. I don't hate my family, but I don't do much to cultivate those relationships, and I think you just nailed a key reason.
This is an incredible thread.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:57 AM on July 16, 2015 [33 favorites]
Holy shit. I don't hate my family, but I don't do much to cultivate those relationships, and I think you just nailed a key reason.
This is an incredible thread.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:57 AM on July 16, 2015 [33 favorites]
Really enjoyed reading this thread. I do a lot of emotional labor tasks pretty well but I've definitely identified some areas for improvement based on things that people are saying here. Thanks to everyone who is contributing.
posted by Kwine at 12:09 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Kwine at 12:09 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I remember reading either a Gallup or a Pew soundbite about remarriage - men over 40 were eager to remarry, but women, not so much. This was, apparently, news. The Gallup people need to read this thread!
I am ever so glad to be single and childfree by choice. Even the happiest marriage involves so much Sisyphean emotional labor on the woman's part, it seems. Sure, single women do emotional labor too, but of a different kind than a husband, kids and in-laws demand. (I also think this is a fairly new concept - Victorian-era spinsters were tapped for uncompensated and nonstop emotional labor with none of the kudos that wives and mothers got.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:23 PM on July 16, 2015 [45 favorites]
I am ever so glad to be single and childfree by choice. Even the happiest marriage involves so much Sisyphean emotional labor on the woman's part, it seems. Sure, single women do emotional labor too, but of a different kind than a husband, kids and in-laws demand. (I also think this is a fairly new concept - Victorian-era spinsters were tapped for uncompensated and nonstop emotional labor with none of the kudos that wives and mothers got.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:23 PM on July 16, 2015 [45 favorites]
No thanks for the chocolate yet, but someone did just ask, "hey, I've actually been meaning to ask you this all day - that is an awesome necklace you have on today, where'd you get it?"
Bad mood averted.
Noting this because sometimes this isn't about any specific set task ("always say thank you if someone gets chocolate, never forget birthday cards, etc.") - sometimes it's just a matter of noticing other people.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [38 favorites]
Bad mood averted.
Noting this because sometimes this isn't about any specific set task ("always say thank you if someone gets chocolate, never forget birthday cards, etc.") - sometimes it's just a matter of noticing other people.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [38 favorites]
This has given me some language to help explain why I have been so tired lately, and also why my husband struggles to help. I think he's also learned from his father a bunch of acting-out "techniques" for getting out of work, which triggers my own learned "fix things" wiring. I hope we can all get better...
posted by armacy at 12:27 PM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by armacy at 12:27 PM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
sometimes it's just a matter of noticing other people.
This. A million times this. And so many dudes want so badly to be noticed - "hey, I'm going to dump all my work problems on you now blah blah blah", or "hey what're you reading" when I'm deep into a book in a semi-public space, or any of a zillion other examples - but never, ever seem to do the bare minimum amount of work to notice others, to be conscious of their space, their comfort, their feelings, their needs, any of it. It's kind of amazing how that obliviousness has been coded as male. It's in the sitcoms, it's in the commercials, it's all over the place. It's awful and I want to burn it to the ground.
posted by lriG rorriM at 12:32 PM on July 16, 2015 [99 favorites]
This. A million times this. And so many dudes want so badly to be noticed - "hey, I'm going to dump all my work problems on you now blah blah blah", or "hey what're you reading" when I'm deep into a book in a semi-public space, or any of a zillion other examples - but never, ever seem to do the bare minimum amount of work to notice others, to be conscious of their space, their comfort, their feelings, their needs, any of it. It's kind of amazing how that obliviousness has been coded as male. It's in the sitcoms, it's in the commercials, it's all over the place. It's awful and I want to burn it to the ground.
posted by lriG rorriM at 12:32 PM on July 16, 2015 [99 favorites]
My wife and I just returned from my family's first (and last!) shared vacation. The trip highlighted an absurd amount of emotional labor, my struggles to preform it, the cost of failure to preform, and how much of this work is expected in unwritten social norms. Could I form a question,the details of the trip would provide hours of entertainment on AskMe.
Even when recognizing the existence of emotional labor, and envisioning a cost structure to help women refuse to perform such work in some instances, there are many implcit social costs. Some were highlighted in the article, and discussion of birthday and Christmas cards demonstrates it here. We got a huge dose of this on our trip. Like the birthday thing, most of these demands are enforced by women.
While we are disproportionately burdened with this, we also tend to enforce performance of it. The article focuses on how men seem to feel overly entitled to emotional labor, and don't shoulder their share of the work involved, creating an extra burden to women, but not the overall societal cost and structure. While I'm sure emotional labor and the refusal to value it can be traced to societal constructs that are patriarchal in nature, I'm more concerned with the overall societal demands and devaluing of emotional labor.
Throughout the trip, my wife had to perform a ridiculous amount of emotional labor. Without her the entire vacation would have fallen apart on Day 1 instead of Day 14 where her temper rightfully flared (leading to barely averted violence, because that's how my family responds to violated norms, such as delivering criticism). This labor generally went unrecognized. There was significant cost to her in terms of time, thought, and emotional regulation.
She was repaid by achieving an environment that was mostly peaceful, with subterranean conflict however, I felt that she should have earned her (meager) social work salary for multiple days of the trip.
While I readily acknowledged and appreciated her labor, it's not like I could pay my wife or provide relief , as most of the labor involved addressing my family's anger towards me. I repeatedly failed to adequately perform the emotional labor my family felt entitled to. As an aside, I have never as an adult felt more autistic then in the moments where I couldn't perform as was demanded of me.
My responses - public and moreso in private - were juvenile, requiring more labor from my wife, until near the end where (with her help!) I managed to work out my adult role among family members whose expectations were complicated by an alphabet soup of (professionally diagnosed) mental illness, including one with an unexpected degree of severity.
My wife is now coming to terms with what was in essence a working vacation, and I'm availing myself to her, while turning elsewhere to process. Again, I'd send my family a bill if I could. We're recovering from the work performed. It's also clear that even if another "most expenses paid" opportunity presents itself, that we will decline. Tickets and hotels overseas aren't worth the cost of the required emotional labor. Missing out on otherwise amazing hypothetical trips entails the cost of refusing to perform emotional labor.
Recognition of the cost of this labor is important, but how does/will change social contracts? What is the outcome? Will people recognize the cost and value for the labor performed, reducing demand in general? Or establish firm boundaries with an insistence that each individual carry their share and responsibility for the emotional labor involved? This, personal responsibility and respect for the cost of emotional labor involved, is what I'd like to see. Recognition of the value of labor, leading to an overall reduction of demands, decreasing out unrecognized social costs for refusal to perform.
This, however, may have more to do with my social struggles as someone on the spectrum, because I so strongly feel the costs. Since preforming emotional labor can be a struggle for me, I am often subjected to the costs associated with failure.
With my family, this means we have to evaluate the ROI related to interactions, because my ethnic background empathizes close ties ( that based on my needs, it's unanimously agreed upon -even professionally -that I shouldn't cut) . Is the risk of displeasing worth the benefits? What do we gain or lose based on my ability to perform? The trip seemed worth it - and it was - once. This isn't something we can do again.
In everyday life, with people more neurotypical than my family, the cost of performing reduced emotional labor involves more limited social circles, cultivated by like minds, who are able to provide reciprocity and do not offend if social norms aren't perfectly met. Without this, my skills would be maxed out, and my wife would be working overtime. Unfair to both of us.
In return, we gain a balance that doesn't tax our well-being, reducing exhaustion and stress. I feel accepted and not trapped in an allistic world of shifting expectations and misunderstandings. But that's me. I'm willing to pay the price. However, I know that my wife, at times, feels lonely, but is also burdened by the work. Is it worth it to her? Do I need to do more? I'm not as encouraging towards her need to branch out as I should be, and I should fix that because...
People with greater social needs have to perform the work to remain connected with family, friends, neighbors and workplaces. The cost of isolation, anger, lost promotions is too great.
While my wife would deny it, it's unfair that I add to that cost. And, in the future, for the sake of the children we plan, I'll have to learn and endure the costs of such labor, for their sake. I'm thinking these expectations won't change. Leaving me to wonder, how, ultimately, does recognition and assigning value to emotional labor impact interactions and lessen overall burden?
posted by bindr at 12:34 PM on July 16, 2015 [23 favorites]
Even when recognizing the existence of emotional labor, and envisioning a cost structure to help women refuse to perform such work in some instances, there are many implcit social costs. Some were highlighted in the article, and discussion of birthday and Christmas cards demonstrates it here. We got a huge dose of this on our trip. Like the birthday thing, most of these demands are enforced by women.
While we are disproportionately burdened with this, we also tend to enforce performance of it. The article focuses on how men seem to feel overly entitled to emotional labor, and don't shoulder their share of the work involved, creating an extra burden to women, but not the overall societal cost and structure. While I'm sure emotional labor and the refusal to value it can be traced to societal constructs that are patriarchal in nature, I'm more concerned with the overall societal demands and devaluing of emotional labor.
Throughout the trip, my wife had to perform a ridiculous amount of emotional labor. Without her the entire vacation would have fallen apart on Day 1 instead of Day 14 where her temper rightfully flared (leading to barely averted violence, because that's how my family responds to violated norms, such as delivering criticism). This labor generally went unrecognized. There was significant cost to her in terms of time, thought, and emotional regulation.
She was repaid by achieving an environment that was mostly peaceful, with subterranean conflict however, I felt that she should have earned her (meager) social work salary for multiple days of the trip.
While I readily acknowledged and appreciated her labor, it's not like I could pay my wife or provide relief , as most of the labor involved addressing my family's anger towards me. I repeatedly failed to adequately perform the emotional labor my family felt entitled to. As an aside, I have never as an adult felt more autistic then in the moments where I couldn't perform as was demanded of me.
My responses - public and moreso in private - were juvenile, requiring more labor from my wife, until near the end where (with her help!) I managed to work out my adult role among family members whose expectations were complicated by an alphabet soup of (professionally diagnosed) mental illness, including one with an unexpected degree of severity.
My wife is now coming to terms with what was in essence a working vacation, and I'm availing myself to her, while turning elsewhere to process. Again, I'd send my family a bill if I could. We're recovering from the work performed. It's also clear that even if another "most expenses paid" opportunity presents itself, that we will decline. Tickets and hotels overseas aren't worth the cost of the required emotional labor. Missing out on otherwise amazing hypothetical trips entails the cost of refusing to perform emotional labor.
Recognition of the cost of this labor is important, but how does/will change social contracts? What is the outcome? Will people recognize the cost and value for the labor performed, reducing demand in general? Or establish firm boundaries with an insistence that each individual carry their share and responsibility for the emotional labor involved? This, personal responsibility and respect for the cost of emotional labor involved, is what I'd like to see. Recognition of the value of labor, leading to an overall reduction of demands, decreasing out unrecognized social costs for refusal to perform.
This, however, may have more to do with my social struggles as someone on the spectrum, because I so strongly feel the costs. Since preforming emotional labor can be a struggle for me, I am often subjected to the costs associated with failure.
With my family, this means we have to evaluate the ROI related to interactions, because my ethnic background empathizes close ties ( that based on my needs, it's unanimously agreed upon -even professionally -that I shouldn't cut) . Is the risk of displeasing worth the benefits? What do we gain or lose based on my ability to perform? The trip seemed worth it - and it was - once. This isn't something we can do again.
In everyday life, with people more neurotypical than my family, the cost of performing reduced emotional labor involves more limited social circles, cultivated by like minds, who are able to provide reciprocity and do not offend if social norms aren't perfectly met. Without this, my skills would be maxed out, and my wife would be working overtime. Unfair to both of us.
In return, we gain a balance that doesn't tax our well-being, reducing exhaustion and stress. I feel accepted and not trapped in an allistic world of shifting expectations and misunderstandings. But that's me. I'm willing to pay the price. However, I know that my wife, at times, feels lonely, but is also burdened by the work. Is it worth it to her? Do I need to do more? I'm not as encouraging towards her need to branch out as I should be, and I should fix that because...
People with greater social needs have to perform the work to remain connected with family, friends, neighbors and workplaces. The cost of isolation, anger, lost promotions is too great.
While my wife would deny it, it's unfair that I add to that cost. And, in the future, for the sake of the children we plan, I'll have to learn and endure the costs of such labor, for their sake. I'm thinking these expectations won't change. Leaving me to wonder, how, ultimately, does recognition and assigning value to emotional labor impact interactions and lessen overall burden?
posted by bindr at 12:34 PM on July 16, 2015 [23 favorites]
brit bennett writes about this from a black perspective in her review of ta-nehisi coates' between the world and me:
which is exactly what's wrong with it! like rather than getting into marxist conceptions of use vs. exchange value and the growing wedge between them, just imagine ifthe world people cis-hetero-white-male-dominated society did not systematically devalue emotional labor; what would that look like? (for one thing, kindergarten teachers would be making $320,000 a year :) trying to get to that world is what i think it means for men to 'step up'.
posted by kliuless at 12:34 PM on July 16, 2015 [47 favorites]
But while we are rightly outraged by the vulnerability of black male bodies, we rarely register the ways in which black women are vulnerable. Whose vulnerability is horrifying and haunting, worthy of marching and protest? Whose is natural and inevitable? Even as a woman, I notice this contradiction in myself. I noticed it the night Trayvon Martin’s killer walked free, when I felt the overwhelming urge to comfort my friend because he should not feel vulnerable. He should be the one to walk through deserted parks late at night, even if I never could because I’m aware of all the things that men—black or white, police or civilian—might do to my body. How easily I accepted this as the natural order of things. How easily I learned all the ways my body could never be free.also btw, fwiw, the failure to account for 'women's work' -- child care, housekeeping, cooking, "entertainment of family members, emotional support, care of the elderly"* -- is one of the standard criticisms of GDP, which for the most part only values monetary transactions (hedonics and imputed values have been incorporated to some extent, but not without controversy) so as a measure of societal well-being GDP is seriously flawed, and yet it still persists as the major gauge with which to judge economic and political policies; it's almost as if it were a man's world...
which is exactly what's wrong with it! like rather than getting into marxist conceptions of use vs. exchange value and the growing wedge between them, just imagine if
posted by kliuless at 12:34 PM on July 16, 2015 [47 favorites]
I have told this story before on metafilter, but we have an office kitchen shared by many people. The dishes would pile up and get nasty. Sometimes it was just someone's errant lunch dish they forgot, sometimes it was a set of plates or trays from an event that got dumped there and, intentionally or not, left for someone to clean up. The dishes would sit there , becoming a passive aggressive thing unto themselves. People would keep creatively arranging the pile so that they could wash their cup without having to deal with the pile. Of course, there was some stink-eye directed at the office staff occasionally, as if it was our job to take care of this. Eventually, someone, always female as far as I can remember, would give in and wash the dishes.
One day I finally got sick of it and put up a sign that said "All dishes left for more than a day will be thrown out". And then I did. Coffee mugs! Nice stainless-steel water bottles! Ikea bowls! IN THE GODDAMN TRASH.
I felt so guilty at first throwing away perfectly good dishes -- but then angry that that's exactly what people take advantage of -- that no one would throw away A Nice Thing because that would be such a mean thing to do and surely someone still wants it!!
It is so fucking liberating to THROW IT ALL AWAY! And with the sign up, so far, no one has dared complain that someone threw out their crap.
*I've never been able to figure out how people are so forgetful that they leave their nice dishes in the sink and don't realize it's missing for days afterward, though
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [94 favorites]
One day I finally got sick of it and put up a sign that said "All dishes left for more than a day will be thrown out". And then I did. Coffee mugs! Nice stainless-steel water bottles! Ikea bowls! IN THE GODDAMN TRASH.
I felt so guilty at first throwing away perfectly good dishes -- but then angry that that's exactly what people take advantage of -- that no one would throw away A Nice Thing because that would be such a mean thing to do and surely someone still wants it!!
It is so fucking liberating to THROW IT ALL AWAY! And with the sign up, so far, no one has dared complain that someone threw out their crap.
*I've never been able to figure out how people are so forgetful that they leave their nice dishes in the sink and don't realize it's missing for days afterward, though
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [94 favorites]
This happened at my work, where people left festering food in the fridge so there was a big announcement with emails and signs that you had to remove everything from the fridge by such-and-such a Friday, or it would be thrown.
There were STILL people (men) who showed up while the fridge was being cleaned to say heyyyyy, you can't throw that out! It's mine! Why!
posted by easter queen at 12:43 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
There were STILL people (men) who showed up while the fridge was being cleaned to say heyyyyy, you can't throw that out! It's mine! Why!
posted by easter queen at 12:43 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
And, in the future, for the sake of the children we plan, I'll have to learn and endure the costs of such labor, for their sake. I'm thinking these expectations won't change. Leaving me to wonder, how, ultimately, does recognition and assigning value to emotional labor impact interactions and lessen overall burden?
I will say, from experience, that people - especially kids - can readily tell when you're merely enduring meeting their needs. At the risk of sounding mawkish, what lessens the burden - and makes the effort worthwhile, in terms of impact - is love and some attempts, however clumsy, at genuine selflessness. Kids are a MASSIVE - maybe the most massive - black hole of emotional labor. They need seemingly endless amounts of it, and will grind away at your very sense of self in order to extract it from you. You can shunt this off on your wife (with the results seen above), or you can gird your loins, accept the fact that you WILLINGLY HAD CHILDREN, and be an engaged, hands-on, shit-work-doing father and partner.
It's not easy, or pleasant, or even good for your mental health some of the time, but the alternative is worse. Also, and maybe most importantly, the more effort you put in, the easier the long term prospects will likely become. All but the most damaged people really do thrive on being genuinely, occasionally selflessly loved. The moment-to-moment work can be mind-numbing and infuriating, but the big picture does often get better the more you just push through that.
posted by ryanshepard at 12:51 PM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
I will say, from experience, that people - especially kids - can readily tell when you're merely enduring meeting their needs. At the risk of sounding mawkish, what lessens the burden - and makes the effort worthwhile, in terms of impact - is love and some attempts, however clumsy, at genuine selflessness. Kids are a MASSIVE - maybe the most massive - black hole of emotional labor. They need seemingly endless amounts of it, and will grind away at your very sense of self in order to extract it from you. You can shunt this off on your wife (with the results seen above), or you can gird your loins, accept the fact that you WILLINGLY HAD CHILDREN, and be an engaged, hands-on, shit-work-doing father and partner.
It's not easy, or pleasant, or even good for your mental health some of the time, but the alternative is worse. Also, and maybe most importantly, the more effort you put in, the easier the long term prospects will likely become. All but the most damaged people really do thrive on being genuinely, occasionally selflessly loved. The moment-to-moment work can be mind-numbing and infuriating, but the big picture does often get better the more you just push through that.
posted by ryanshepard at 12:51 PM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
Something I don't think has been touched on yet is that one of patriarchy's most fundamental (and occasionally lethal) lessons to men is that they would do well to fear or at least be deeply wary of displaying genuine emotion in front of one another. Every straight dude I know who sees a therapist will only see a female therapist because, as they've all told me, they just wouldn't feel completely comfortable expressing themselves to or seeking personal advice from another man.
These are all perfectly fine, upstanding, well-meaning, feminist-aligned guys, and I love them to death, but the bottom line is that they bring things to me that they do not bring to each other, and part of the reason for it -- aside from emotional labor being a traditionally female-coded activity -- is that they don't feel threatened by me, physically or psychologically. They feel safe, operating under an assumption that I'm not going to belittle them or punch them or call them degrading names, all of which are things I've seen men do to each other when one of them is perceived as showing "weakness," which in many cases means "any emotion at all." No matter how progressive their other dude friends are, they've all expressed a certain amount of reticence when it comes to being emotionally honest with them, almost like they're afraid of being rejected, if not outright wounded.
Of course, the ultimate result of all of this is still the same, no matter the reason: The responsibility for men's emotional well-being is still assigned to women (paid or unpaid). And of course, it's kinda shitty of them to not be able to recognize that as problematic. But it almost seems like they're so busy trying to protect their most vulnerable selves that they're unable to interpret their steadfast refusal to bring their woes to another man as playing into the patriarchy's goal of making women feel obligated to perform emotional labor in perpetuity.
posted by divined by radio at 1:20 PM on July 16, 2015 [88 favorites]
These are all perfectly fine, upstanding, well-meaning, feminist-aligned guys, and I love them to death, but the bottom line is that they bring things to me that they do not bring to each other, and part of the reason for it -- aside from emotional labor being a traditionally female-coded activity -- is that they don't feel threatened by me, physically or psychologically. They feel safe, operating under an assumption that I'm not going to belittle them or punch them or call them degrading names, all of which are things I've seen men do to each other when one of them is perceived as showing "weakness," which in many cases means "any emotion at all." No matter how progressive their other dude friends are, they've all expressed a certain amount of reticence when it comes to being emotionally honest with them, almost like they're afraid of being rejected, if not outright wounded.
Of course, the ultimate result of all of this is still the same, no matter the reason: The responsibility for men's emotional well-being is still assigned to women (paid or unpaid). And of course, it's kinda shitty of them to not be able to recognize that as problematic. But it almost seems like they're so busy trying to protect their most vulnerable selves that they're unable to interpret their steadfast refusal to bring their woes to another man as playing into the patriarchy's goal of making women feel obligated to perform emotional labor in perpetuity.
posted by divined by radio at 1:20 PM on July 16, 2015 [88 favorites]
This is (a) the best thread ever, and (b) like a ticker-tape parade for me embracing my glorious spinsterhood.
Also, from a social research perspective I am SO curious how the economy of emotional labor works in the LGBTQ community, or as a function of femme-ness. I'd imagine that family dynamics make this all kinds of complicated.
posted by katya.lysander at 1:20 PM on July 16, 2015 [30 favorites]
Also, from a social research perspective I am SO curious how the economy of emotional labor works in the LGBTQ community, or as a function of femme-ness. I'd imagine that family dynamics make this all kinds of complicated.
posted by katya.lysander at 1:20 PM on July 16, 2015 [30 favorites]
> I now wonder whether the deep hatred doesn't come from a core knowledge and guilt that these situations --holidays, families-- require emotional labor from them, and that they have never, ever been willing to do that labor.
>> Holy shit. I don't hate my family, but I don't do much to cultivate those relationships, and I think you just nailed a key reason.
I'm recognizing so much in this thread, but that...I think I just realized that what I was fleeing when I moved 1000+ miles 20 years ago was the emotional labor of maintaining stressful family relationships. And now that everyone has moved closer I'm full of unexpressed frustration and irritation about having to work at relationships I'm just not that excited about. (Wow such procrastination for holidays, birthdays, etc., etc.)
posted by epersonae at 1:22 PM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
>> Holy shit. I don't hate my family, but I don't do much to cultivate those relationships, and I think you just nailed a key reason.
I'm recognizing so much in this thread, but that...I think I just realized that what I was fleeing when I moved 1000+ miles 20 years ago was the emotional labor of maintaining stressful family relationships. And now that everyone has moved closer I'm full of unexpressed frustration and irritation about having to work at relationships I'm just not that excited about. (Wow such procrastination for holidays, birthdays, etc., etc.)
posted by epersonae at 1:22 PM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
Today, there was another discussion about the cheese. (comment up thread with the story).
We got regaled with talk about the market, a talk about the fact that our cheese doesn't have extra crap in it and a couple of re-explaining sessions of why this cheese is so good.
One of the women asked if he would serve this cheese if he was hosting a bbq. He deflected, "Well I like it because blah blah and more blah."
"Well honestly, I wouldn't serve it to my friends," the woman said with a shrug and tried to go back to her work.
More talk about markets and blah blah.
Who knew that us liking a cheese was so important?
When he finally left we all just turned and looked at each other with 'wtf' expression and burst out laughing.
"Well maybe we should tell him we now like the cheese. To make him feel better."
"Nah...." more laughter.
posted by Jalliah at 1:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [75 favorites]
We got regaled with talk about the market, a talk about the fact that our cheese doesn't have extra crap in it and a couple of re-explaining sessions of why this cheese is so good.
One of the women asked if he would serve this cheese if he was hosting a bbq. He deflected, "Well I like it because blah blah and more blah."
"Well honestly, I wouldn't serve it to my friends," the woman said with a shrug and tried to go back to her work.
More talk about markets and blah blah.
Who knew that us liking a cheese was so important?
When he finally left we all just turned and looked at each other with 'wtf' expression and burst out laughing.
"Well maybe we should tell him we now like the cheese. To make him feel better."
"Nah...." more laughter.
posted by Jalliah at 1:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [75 favorites]
Take the cheese from his hands and just throw it on the floor and stomp on it while staring him right in the eye the entire time.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [65 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [65 favorites]
Today, there was another discussion about the cheese.
Oh my God, CHEESESPLAINING.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:42 PM on July 16, 2015 [186 favorites]
Oh my God, CHEESESPLAINING.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:42 PM on July 16, 2015 [186 favorites]
Today, there was another discussion about the cheese.
It seems abundantly clear that "cheese" is a metaphor. For his worth as a man. Don't like the cheese? You hate him! Wouldn't serve it to your friends? You hate him! Don't want to keep talking about it? You hate him!
I'm not 100% serious .. but I'm not 100% kidding, either.
posted by dotgirl at 1:44 PM on July 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
It seems abundantly clear that "cheese" is a metaphor. For his worth as a man. Don't like the cheese? You hate him! Wouldn't serve it to your friends? You hate him! Don't want to keep talking about it? You hate him!
I'm not 100% serious .. but I'm not 100% kidding, either.
posted by dotgirl at 1:44 PM on July 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
I am in love with this entire thread. After I broke up with a previous boyfriend, I swore off men for a while, because I got so goddamn tired of taking emotional care of them when I barely knew how to take care of myself. (I grew up with an abusive father, which really underscores that lesson of "pay close attention to men lest they blow up", lemme tell ya.) I'm currently dealing with a situation where if I'm not the Nicest Nice Person Ever To Nice when asking for info from my male boss, he takes offense, and that takes priority, even over time-sensitive things.
I'm just... I'm just so very done with dealing with this shit. I have dealt with this shit literally all my life, including most of my workplaces (if not all; my memory sucks), and I am 100% done with providing free emotional labor to any dude who wanders by feeling entitled to it.
posted by XtinaS at 1:45 PM on July 16, 2015 [18 favorites]
I'm just... I'm just so very done with dealing with this shit. I have dealt with this shit literally all my life, including most of my workplaces (if not all; my memory sucks), and I am 100% done with providing free emotional labor to any dude who wanders by feeling entitled to it.
posted by XtinaS at 1:45 PM on July 16, 2015 [18 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments deleted. In the name of not making this personal, I would ask guys to refrain from making comments that just amount to how yes, you personally indeed don't do this emotional labor. That's really not an assertion that's going to lead to anything fruitful in this conversation.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:50 PM on July 16, 2015 [40 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:50 PM on July 16, 2015 [40 favorites]
One effect of all this for everybody is making it very hard, in situation where individuals in a relationship are doing unequal amounts of paid work but attempting to be equitable to divide other responsibilities in a way that both parties will actually feel is fair - since the paid and unpaid work are often in practice almost incommensurable.
posted by atoxyl at 1:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 1:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I decided recently that if the proposed solution to a problem is that I have to stop having standards and boundaries, they no longer get to negotiate.
Let's be clear though: they were never negotiating if their proposal was "you give up."
This article about a couple that is trying to assign a value to everything in their home labors seems related somewhat to this topic. It includes somewhat emotional labors (put the kids to bed) but there's no mention of things without a physical component.
posted by phearlez at 2:01 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
Let's be clear though: they were never negotiating if their proposal was "you give up."
This article about a couple that is trying to assign a value to everything in their home labors seems related somewhat to this topic. It includes somewhat emotional labors (put the kids to bed) but there's no mention of things without a physical component.
posted by phearlez at 2:01 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm not 100% serious .. but I'm not 100% kidding, either.
I don't know exactly what it is about but it sure seems it's about something more then cheese.
posted by Jalliah at 2:05 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
I don't know exactly what it is about but it sure seems it's about something more then cheese.
posted by Jalliah at 2:05 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
No wonder Hallmark cards are either treacly sentimental or covertly hostile. Whenever I shop for one I need to spend 15 minutes reading them to make sure it isn't either suitable for your consanguineous frenemy, covertly sexual, or crypto-Christian. A blank card means you need to do all the emotional labor yourself.
posted by bad grammar at 2:07 PM on July 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by bad grammar at 2:07 PM on July 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
It's even weirder because the person who actually made the cheese as a test, who is an awesome award winning cheesemaker, is perfectly okay with us not liking the cheese and was happy that we were honest about what we thought.
He said he would have been upset if we weren't honest and assured us, without any prompting, that he wasn't upset at all.
Symbolism all around in this story.
posted by Jalliah at 2:12 PM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
He said he would have been upset if we weren't honest and assured us, without any prompting, that he wasn't upset at all.
Symbolism all around in this story.
posted by Jalliah at 2:12 PM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
You know, the cheese thing really seems like an inability to understand that tastes differ. Which I've run into in an unfortunate number of other circumstances (like, discussing nominations for the Hugos). And that again comes down to a lack of empathy - one of the basic and most fundamental things required for doing most kind of emotional labor. Bossman seems to be upset because his opinion is the right one to have, and hey, why isn't anyone else convinced of that. Non disputandum de gustabis, dude.
posted by lriG rorriM at 2:12 PM on July 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 2:12 PM on July 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
Every straight dude I know who sees a therapist will only see a female therapist because, as they've all told me, they just wouldn't feel completely comfortable expressing themselves to or seeking personal advice from another man.
This makes me feel like I live in another world, though. Men... talk about their personal problems? Obviously that has to do with the particular models of masculinity I grew up with but - men talk about their problems... to women? I've had (paid) both men and women in therapy-sort-of roles but it's mostly been men and more to the point I would have strongly expected a preference for men - a same-gender preference for all genders in fact. I absolutely don't mean you're wrong it's just honestly pretty surprising. Men consulting straight female friends on the oh-so-mysterious workings of romantic relationships being an exception for sure but that's not what I go to professional therapy for.
posted by atoxyl at 2:13 PM on July 16, 2015
This makes me feel like I live in another world, though. Men... talk about their personal problems? Obviously that has to do with the particular models of masculinity I grew up with but - men talk about their problems... to women? I've had (paid) both men and women in therapy-sort-of roles but it's mostly been men and more to the point I would have strongly expected a preference for men - a same-gender preference for all genders in fact. I absolutely don't mean you're wrong it's just honestly pretty surprising. Men consulting straight female friends on the oh-so-mysterious workings of romantic relationships being an exception for sure but that's not what I go to professional therapy for.
posted by atoxyl at 2:13 PM on July 16, 2015
What gets me is that a lot of guys apparently feel so upset at the prospect of having to make themselves emotionally vulnerable in appropriate ways--with people they have a relationship with--that they resort to passive aggressive attempts to center attention on themselves, cloaked with something else to give them some plausible deniability. And because so many dudes do not have those kinds of close relationships with anyone whose social interactions aren't being routed through a wife or other female relative, well, in those cases it looks like those emotions just get dumped on whatever woman (or women) is nearest. It's something I have never heard other dudes talk about, but basically every woman I know has some story about a man she barely knows creepily over-sharing some inner pain with her, or some guy barging into a conversation among women and trying to re-center it around his feelings.
Or at least, that's the only explanation I can come up for why so many guys have to cloak any desire to talk about their feelings with posturing and aggression, or to unsubtly hint at those feelings and make someone else actually ask about it to make the hinting stop. It's as if the pressure to hide those emotions or vulnerability from other men (as divined by radio mentions) builds up as pressure that just explodes out of some dudes at the slightest provocation. Kind of like how if you lance a boil early it heals up much faster than letting it grow and grow until it explodes in a shower of pus at the worst possible moment. Whatever it is, it's really irritating, because now you as the female friend have to be like, warm and inviting and let the delicate manly flower open up before you can cajole his exploding feelings out of him. It's a really annoying extra thing to have to deal with.
posted by sciatrix at 2:13 PM on July 16, 2015 [32 favorites]
Or at least, that's the only explanation I can come up for why so many guys have to cloak any desire to talk about their feelings with posturing and aggression, or to unsubtly hint at those feelings and make someone else actually ask about it to make the hinting stop. It's as if the pressure to hide those emotions or vulnerability from other men (as divined by radio mentions) builds up as pressure that just explodes out of some dudes at the slightest provocation. Kind of like how if you lance a boil early it heals up much faster than letting it grow and grow until it explodes in a shower of pus at the worst possible moment. Whatever it is, it's really irritating, because now you as the female friend have to be like, warm and inviting and let the delicate manly flower open up before you can cajole his exploding feelings out of him. It's a really annoying extra thing to have to deal with.
posted by sciatrix at 2:13 PM on July 16, 2015 [32 favorites]
Whatever it is, it's really irritating, because now you as the female friend have to be like, warm and inviting and let the delicate manly flower open up before you can cajole his exploding feelings out of him. It's a really annoying extra thing to have to deal with.
This this this this this.
I told my boyfriend eventually that I wasn't going to spend my time begging him to tell me that I suck... if he wants me to know I suck he needs to come out with it on his own. Don't make me beg for even more emotional labor on my plate!
posted by easter queen at 2:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
This this this this this.
I told my boyfriend eventually that I wasn't going to spend my time begging him to tell me that I suck... if he wants me to know I suck he needs to come out with it on his own. Don't make me beg for even more emotional labor on my plate!
posted by easter queen at 2:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
You know, the cheese thing really seems like an inability to understand that tastes differ.
Really? It reads 100% to me as a power thing, though that overlaps a lot with face. The advocate had already indicated support and people who he expects to agree with him are failing to do so. I doubt he consciously thinks he wants unwarranted praise but his stature and authority comes with Being Right and it's an affront to his competency for folks to disagree. When people disagree in a way that makes him wrong it's a loss of face. That it comes from a gender who he's programmed to expect support from makes the emotional toll even higher.
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on July 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
Really? It reads 100% to me as a power thing, though that overlaps a lot with face. The advocate had already indicated support and people who he expects to agree with him are failing to do so. I doubt he consciously thinks he wants unwarranted praise but his stature and authority comes with Being Right and it's an affront to his competency for folks to disagree. When people disagree in a way that makes him wrong it's a loss of face. That it comes from a gender who he's programmed to expect support from makes the emotional toll even higher.
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on July 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
This isn't a totally new concept for me (because it's come up on Metafilter before - where else do I learn new vocabulary?) but reading this thread has suddenly made me understand why I have so few male friends, despite working in tech my entire adult life. I ain't gonna do all the work, and dudes just won't, so... they drop out of touch. It's easy enough to be friendly if we're in an office together, but I work remote these days, and I can count the number of game industry buddies that have dropped me a line to say hi on the fingers of one foot.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:47 PM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 2:47 PM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
Yeah, this is someone who not only needs to think he's right but needs to have that rightness validated and shored up and applauded. High maintenance much, bossguy?
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:50 PM on July 16, 2015
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:50 PM on July 16, 2015
Er, the cheeseboss, that is.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:51 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:51 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Note rejected. What I actually asked was if people in the 'male' role could share how they'd moved from being conscious of this, to actually stepping up and doing better. I was pretty conscious of posting "hey 'guys', how can we in the 'male' role step up?" rather than "hey people doing so much emotional labour, tell us what to do."
Anyways, thank you for the graciously-phrased and generously-intended feedback on my comment and the offer to share your experiences privately.
posted by sixswitch at 11:33 AM on July 16 [5 favorites +] [!]
"Hey guys" is generally going to be parsed as gender neutral. Which, ha, patriarchy strikes AGAIN!
It sounded like you were saying "ladies, what ways "work for you" when men try to overcome this?"
Sure, you meant to say "Hey men, what ways have you had success in doing the emotional labor in your work/love/family lives?" But that's not what I heard, and that's not what at least one other reader heard.
You want to know something funny? I wrote an apology before I typed that first sentence. Because emotional labor means that I am expected to not be a person who will hurt your feelings. (And that says a lot about the times I have used metafilter as a place to tell people to go fuck themselves. I was that angry.)
And I will answer the question I thought you were asking, because I'm already taking up space here and this matters to me.
That last one, in case you hadn't guessed, is the most important one in my eyes, because allies raise awareness.
posted by bilabial at 2:52 PM on July 16, 2015 [113 favorites]
Anyways, thank you for the graciously-phrased and generously-intended feedback on my comment and the offer to share your experiences privately.
posted by sixswitch at 11:33 AM on July 16 [5 favorites +] [!]
"Hey guys" is generally going to be parsed as gender neutral. Which, ha, patriarchy strikes AGAIN!
It sounded like you were saying "ladies, what ways "work for you" when men try to overcome this?"
Sure, you meant to say "Hey men, what ways have you had success in doing the emotional labor in your work/love/family lives?" But that's not what I heard, and that's not what at least one other reader heard.
You want to know something funny? I wrote an apology before I typed that first sentence. Because emotional labor means that I am expected to not be a person who will hurt your feelings. (And that says a lot about the times I have used metafilter as a place to tell people to go fuck themselves. I was that angry.)
And I will answer the question I thought you were asking, because I'm already taking up space here and this matters to me.
- Don't repeatedly tell me that you're "not a planner" when I tell you it would be nice if you would plan a date. Just plan a date.
- Pick up or make a hot meal at least as often as your partner does, unless the two of you have explicitly agreed that the arrangement you have now is not just "fine" but is actually good.
- Wash your own laundry and don't expect a medal for it.
- Call your mother/sister/boss without reminding, tell your partner that it's been done, and don't expect a medal for it
- Make a calendar where the birthday/milestone/graduation/upcoming wedding dates go. Send gifts and cards as appropriate (not as you think are expected, but ask Emily Post this shit) and don't expect a medal for it.
- Offer a shoulder rub/think to buy a small present/proffer words of affirmation/schedule quality time (frisbee, a picnic, a movie you know your partner likes, a walk around your block) and don't expect a medal for it.
- When people who are not your partner try to give you a medal for any of the above, politely tell them that you're working on doing more of emotional labor in your life, and that you don't expect a medal for it.
That last one, in case you hadn't guessed, is the most important one in my eyes, because allies raise awareness.
posted by bilabial at 2:52 PM on July 16, 2015 [113 favorites]
Reading this thread is making me concerned about ever getting involved with a man again. Being divorced and homeless has helped exempt me from a lot of these ridiculous expectations, many of which I opted out of more and more over the course of my marriage because it was never appreciated.
For years, I sent all kinds of packages to my poverty-stricken in-laws -- my mother-in-law and her two welfare-mom daughters, churning out babies out of wedlock -- and my MIL acted like her son was so good to her. Like I was his secretary. Uh, no. He did not care that much. Geez. What kind of drugs are you on, lady?
My ex husband is not an ogre. We could not work it out, but the divorce was amicable. I am much more relieved to no longer be related to his family than I am to no longer be related to him.
I have spent a lifetime carefully arranging to opt out of shitty things like that. I find myself wondering if it is possible to get back to a more normal life, where I live in a regular house and have a more normal income, and not wind up entangled again in such awfulness. Because I would rather just never get laid again than to have to put up with this kind of shit just to have a man in mylife bed again.
The other thing I wonder, and I am not sure if this is being discussed in earnest or not in this thread because I can't seem to read fast enough to catch up, is if you are actually good at all that emotional labor type stuff and enjoy it, what are ways to capitalize on that that pay decently and are respected? I mean, we have plenty of low paid jobs, like waitressing, that expect this stuff and we have plenty of jobs that aren't respected, like sex work. Is there anything where being good at this actually pays what it should and is respected and all that? I wonder about that a fair amount and I don't know if I have any answers yet.
posted by Michele in California at 2:54 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
For years, I sent all kinds of packages to my poverty-stricken in-laws -- my mother-in-law and her two welfare-mom daughters, churning out babies out of wedlock -- and my MIL acted like her son was so good to her. Like I was his secretary. Uh, no. He did not care that much. Geez. What kind of drugs are you on, lady?
My ex husband is not an ogre. We could not work it out, but the divorce was amicable. I am much more relieved to no longer be related to his family than I am to no longer be related to him.
I have spent a lifetime carefully arranging to opt out of shitty things like that. I find myself wondering if it is possible to get back to a more normal life, where I live in a regular house and have a more normal income, and not wind up entangled again in such awfulness. Because I would rather just never get laid again than to have to put up with this kind of shit just to have a man in my
The other thing I wonder, and I am not sure if this is being discussed in earnest or not in this thread because I can't seem to read fast enough to catch up, is if you are actually good at all that emotional labor type stuff and enjoy it, what are ways to capitalize on that that pay decently and are respected? I mean, we have plenty of low paid jobs, like waitressing, that expect this stuff and we have plenty of jobs that aren't respected, like sex work. Is there anything where being good at this actually pays what it should and is respected and all that? I wonder about that a fair amount and I don't know if I have any answers yet.
posted by Michele in California at 2:54 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
And, in the future, for the sake of the children we plan, I'll have to learn and endure the costs of such labor, for their sake. I'm thinking these expectations won't change.
I will say, from experience, that people - especially kids - can readily tell when you're merely enduring meeting their needs.
Very True. It'd be irresponsible to bring children into the world to merely endure them. While part of me bristles at having emotional labor explained and demanded of me, I see and agree with the sentiment. Children, unequivocally, deserve the best.
I misspoke by not connecting my
comments about enduring and engaging in increased emotional labor wrt kids to the social requirements parents face with other parents, schools and the community at large to foster a sense of community for said kids.
As a lesbian couple (something I failed to clarify) and planned incubator of our release candidate*, I realized (through this discussion) that our reduced efforts related to external emotional labor could have repercussions impacting our hypothetical but eagerly awaited children. It will no longer be about "fair to us" as portrayed and balanced in my first comment, but about our childrens' needs. This is what I realized and tried to acknowledge in my initial post - changing needs that I knew we would undoubtedly work to meet.
Recognizing another way our lives will possibly change as we draw closer to the goal, wasn't intended to derail. Rather, I was speaking to the value of emotional labor. Non-hypothetical illustrated that it not only effects ones lives, but future generations as well. To me, this speaks to the mostly unrecognized value behind emotional labor above and beyond the recognition and exhaustion related to (not-all) men's sense of entitlement towards receiving it.
because "biological mother" denotes inequity, and children grow into individuality. .
posted by bindr at 3:45 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I will say, from experience, that people - especially kids - can readily tell when you're merely enduring meeting their needs.
Very True. It'd be irresponsible to bring children into the world to merely endure them. While part of me bristles at having emotional labor explained and demanded of me, I see and agree with the sentiment. Children, unequivocally, deserve the best.
I misspoke by not connecting my
comments about enduring and engaging in increased emotional labor wrt kids to the social requirements parents face with other parents, schools and the community at large to foster a sense of community for said kids.
As a lesbian couple (something I failed to clarify) and planned incubator of our release candidate*, I realized (through this discussion) that our reduced efforts related to external emotional labor could have repercussions impacting our hypothetical but eagerly awaited children. It will no longer be about "fair to us" as portrayed and balanced in my first comment, but about our childrens' needs. This is what I realized and tried to acknowledge in my initial post - changing needs that I knew we would undoubtedly work to meet.
Recognizing another way our lives will possibly change as we draw closer to the goal, wasn't intended to derail. Rather, I was speaking to the value of emotional labor. Non-hypothetical illustrated that it not only effects ones lives, but future generations as well. To me, this speaks to the mostly unrecognized value behind emotional labor above and beyond the recognition and exhaustion related to (not-all) men's sense of entitlement towards receiving it.
because "biological mother" denotes inequity, and children grow into individuality. .
posted by bindr at 3:45 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
The other thing I wonder, and I am not sure if this is being discussed in earnest or not in this thread because I can't seem to read fast enough to catch up, is if you are actually good at all that emotional labor type stuff and enjoy it, what are ways to capitalize on that that pay decently and are respected?
be male
posted by NoraReed at 4:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [58 favorites]
be male
posted by NoraReed at 4:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [58 favorites]
I think we discussed that recent NYT story from the anthropologist talking about the MBA wives who get bonuses for managing the household budget well and getting the kids into the best preschools and throwing the best parties.
That's the end result of making an in-relationship trade of cash/room and board/social standing in return for taking on all the for emotional labor (for well-off people, anyway). It was a better deal, the author argued, than being a 70-percenter at work and not getting to spend any time with your kids.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
That's the end result of making an in-relationship trade of cash/room and board/social standing in return for taking on all the for emotional labor (for well-off people, anyway). It was a better deal, the author argued, than being a 70-percenter at work and not getting to spend any time with your kids.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
Yeah, my best friend is in the process of divorcing her very feminist ex because he could never get the content of twirlypen's comment through his head. if you don't do it, you're leaving it for a woman to do.
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
I grew up being like this, and I am still like this. I smooth things over, I do the social calendar. I think about the cleaning schedule, etc. My husband plays dumb and he does what I tell him to do.
Then I have this daughter. She is in her 30's. She is like some fierce sort of warrior. She is very blunt. She will do the housework but she will be very clear as to why she will do it. She won't take shit from anyone. She is working and going back to school. With the puppy and the grand-baby, who she has gotten into a private school.
I said, "wow, who did you get this from?" and she says, "I got it from you, Ma."
And then I remember that I was a breastfeeding Mom, a "no you won't watch the Miss USA pageant in front of my daughter" Mom. And I guess she watched me...
I grew up in the 60's and I raised this woman. She won't take shit from anyone. She does things. She even offends me, and that's okay, because she is a rocket, and she is taking off, and I launched her.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [265 favorites]
Then I have this daughter. She is in her 30's. She is like some fierce sort of warrior. She is very blunt. She will do the housework but she will be very clear as to why she will do it. She won't take shit from anyone. She is working and going back to school. With the puppy and the grand-baby, who she has gotten into a private school.
I said, "wow, who did you get this from?" and she says, "I got it from you, Ma."
And then I remember that I was a breastfeeding Mom, a "no you won't watch the Miss USA pageant in front of my daughter" Mom. And I guess she watched me...
I grew up in the 60's and I raised this woman. She won't take shit from anyone. She does things. She even offends me, and that's okay, because she is a rocket, and she is taking off, and I launched her.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [265 favorites]
Nthing this being a wonderful thread, and noting "emotional labor" being a superb, high-quality paradigm that can be used in the real world very readily. Thanks for sharing all your stories, in going to keep this in mind with my own relationships.
posted by amorphatist at 4:55 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by amorphatist at 4:55 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
By "being used in the real world very readily", I mean it's something that I figure non-feminist, non-SJW -identifying acquaintances of mine would easily understand and accept.
posted by amorphatist at 4:58 PM on July 16, 2015
posted by amorphatist at 4:58 PM on July 16, 2015
Trying to figure out the overlap between this work, and the work involved with avoiding being raped. The goal is different (opposite?), but the energy is similar.
posted by unknowncommand at 5:25 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by unknowncommand at 5:25 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
Could you clarify what you mean by that, unknowncommand?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:45 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:45 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm a guy and I just wanted to say that I also think this is the best thread ever. It's like a roller coaster, thrilling because it so articulately validates emotional baggage I've had concerning the way some men I grew up with treated me and others, followed up with horror at the realization I must have treated women in many of these ways over the years.
Kudos to our intrepid and indefatigable mods for pruning with prejudice what could have become a sharknado of shit into the elegant little bonsai this discussion has become.
posted by XMLicious at 6:04 PM on July 16, 2015 [23 favorites]
Kudos to our intrepid and indefatigable mods for pruning with prejudice what could have become a sharknado of shit into the elegant little bonsai this discussion has become.
posted by XMLicious at 6:04 PM on July 16, 2015 [23 favorites]
My father in law JUST NOW like half an hour ago called me to work out all the details of the backpacking trip that he, my husband, my daughter, and my sister-in-law are going on tomorrow. When I said "Oh hey, HusbandT is at work, he'll be home at 7, you should call him then" he said "Oh, I figured that we could get all this sorted out now."
Look back at that list of people who are going on this trip and notice that I AM NOT ON IT. I said breezily "I will never remember all the details to tell him, and I don't know anything about it myself, so I'm not really a good person figure things out with!" and he was so bemused.
posted by KathrynT at 6:06 PM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
Look back at that list of people who are going on this trip and notice that I AM NOT ON IT. I said breezily "I will never remember all the details to tell him, and I don't know anything about it myself, so I'm not really a good person figure things out with!" and he was so bemused.
posted by KathrynT at 6:06 PM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
bitter-girl.com, I mean the work required (sometimes active and consciously, mostly constant and subconsciously) to consider escape routes and defense strategies, to cross the street when things feel iffy, to avoid being put in a "bad position", to cover your drink at the bar, to cover skin, to listen for footfall in stairwells, to carry your keys in your fist, to not hold packages or umbrellas between your thighs, to ignore street harassment such that it does not escalate, to make sure you're not the only woman in the train car, etc. All of the rules to remember, and the behaviors to execute, and the potential danger to avoid. It's similar to this kind of emotional labor, in that it's work that is taught and understood as "natural", enforced by negative social consequences (or the perception of same).
posted by unknowncommand at 6:12 PM on July 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by unknowncommand at 6:12 PM on July 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
As a counterpart to Eyebrow McGee's excellent point about the effects on men on removal of supportive emotional work, I'd like to offer the Abstract of "Acts of Love (and Work)Gender Imbalance in Emotional Work and Women’s Psychological Distress":
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [47 favorites]
ABSTRACT Family members do work to meet people’s emotional needs, improve their well-being, and maintain harmony. When emotional work is shared equally, both men and women have access to emotional resources in the family. However, like housework and child care, the distribution of emotional work is gendered. This study examines the psychological health consequences of gender divisions in emotional work. Quantitative and qualitative data from a sample of 102 couples with young children show that the gender imbalance affected women’s, but not men’s, experience of love and conflict in their marriage. Through this erosion of the marriage, the gender imbalance posed a health risk to women and helped explain gender differences in psychological distress. Couples preserved a sense of mutuality by accounting for the gender imbalance as something beyond men’s choice or control, or in terms of women’s excess emotional needs, thus entrenching gender differences in the performance and consequences of emotional work.I do not have access to the study (maybe someone here does?), but wanted to point out yet another way that the imbalance of emotional work affects women's bodily and psychological health.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [47 favorites]
Phearlez, that's the beeminder couple! Their app helped me track how much work I was putting into things that people were discounting or downplaying, and in some ways significantly led to me saying nope, and getting divorced and other major steps. It's hard to hide from how little or how much you're doing when you put a real - even if it is only nominal - value on it.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:21 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:21 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have access to the article cited above by MonkeyToes and am happy to share it with anyone who wants to discuss the scholarship within said article. Please MeMail me for a copy if so.
posted by sockermom at 6:40 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 6:40 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am sure that to this day, he thinks it was about the chorizo.
It wasn't about the motherfucking chorizo.
posted by Space Kitty at 6:42 PM on July 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
It wasn't about the motherfucking chorizo.
posted by Space Kitty at 6:42 PM on July 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
it's never the motherfucking chorizo, it's what the chorizo symbolizes
posted by palomar at 6:44 PM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by palomar at 6:44 PM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Guys, sometimes a cigar chorizo is just a chorizo...
posted by easter queen at 6:47 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by easter queen at 6:47 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Holy shit MonkeyToes (interesting string of words), thank you, that study is incredible. It's like my fricking memoir. When I write my memoir, it will just be... that study 10,000 times.
posted by easter queen at 6:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 6:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
This thread is amazing, y'all are amazing and I'm sending this out to as many friends as I can get.
I do want to comment on something though - I sincerely do not believe that emotional labor is something women are naturally good at. I commented in the autistic women spectrum post that I massively self-taught and practiced socialization and emotions to the point...where now I get recommended regularly to become a therapist.
However, my mother was someone who is exceptionally good at emotional labor, but would call out our family for not being reciprocating. She would scold me if I wasn't reciprocating emotional labor in the same way that she wants, and would lament if her needs were not met.
She also would make comments that I would most likely have to have a partner who would "take care of me more than I would take care of him." The reason? Because not only was learning how to take care of myself, my family, and my relationships was not innate and I needed to learn it, I also am not willing to go through the overbearing emotional work of making a relationship work. It should be an egalitarian effort, like "tending a garden", as I've seen elsewhere on AskMeFi be stated.
And I asked her, "is that so bad?" and she was like, "not really. but it's hard to find a man who would do such a thing for you." patriarchy continuously ruins my dating options forever.
posted by yueliang at 6:53 PM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
I do want to comment on something though - I sincerely do not believe that emotional labor is something women are naturally good at. I commented in the autistic women spectrum post that I massively self-taught and practiced socialization and emotions to the point...where now I get recommended regularly to become a therapist.
However, my mother was someone who is exceptionally good at emotional labor, but would call out our family for not being reciprocating. She would scold me if I wasn't reciprocating emotional labor in the same way that she wants, and would lament if her needs were not met.
She also would make comments that I would most likely have to have a partner who would "take care of me more than I would take care of him." The reason? Because not only was learning how to take care of myself, my family, and my relationships was not innate and I needed to learn it, I also am not willing to go through the overbearing emotional work of making a relationship work. It should be an egalitarian effort, like "tending a garden", as I've seen elsewhere on AskMeFi be stated.
And I asked her, "is that so bad?" and she was like, "not really. but it's hard to find a man who would do such a thing for you." patriarchy continuously ruins my dating options forever.
posted by yueliang at 6:53 PM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
I need an explainer for the chorizo references
posted by bq at 7:29 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:29 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
The article about the Beeminder couple is really interesting but how do you come up with a system like that and neglect to include carrying two pregnancies and giving birth twice in the math?!?
posted by somedaycatlady at 8:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by somedaycatlady at 8:19 PM on July 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
I do want to comment on something though - I sincerely do not believe that emotional labor is something women are naturally good at. I commented in the autistic women spectrum post that I massively self-taught and practiced socialization and emotions to the point...where now I get recommended regularly to become a therapist.
I don't mean this in any divisive way, but it's either women (as a whole, #NotAllWomen and so on) are better at it, or women and men are equal at it, or men are better at it. Maybe better is the wrong word, but more inclined? I have a seven month old daughter, and like many men, for the first few months (especially until she self-weaned at 5 months), I'm a bystander essentially. And then, and still now, my daughter's mother has no qualms about stating (well, maybe she does, but she does it anyway) that there's a nurturing connection she feels with our child that I can't possibly grasp, as I did not carry her inside me for nine months nor did I feed her from my own body for the next five. She is just plainly simple correct on this. To me it seems fairly absurd to say that that does not influence this emotional labor discussion. How could I possibly be as equipped, or inclined as her, to value the effects that emotional labor produces? When children and family are the biggest cause of emotional labor? Even if I spend every ounce of my brain-being on empathizing and trying to do the right thing, as told to me by the person oppressed, I'm never going to match her, according to her. I may as well be some cishet white dude trying to write about queer women POC.
Again, this is #NotAllWomen, but in particular, mothers. I'm not saying/asserting/insisting that being a woman causes the average woman to be better/more-inclined/pushed-towards emotional labor than the average male, but I'm fairly sure that motherhood has something quite intrinsic to do with the way it plays out. And I say this as the son of a woman who was an emotional labor martyr to the extremest degree, which has made me highly cognizant of this occurring around me. I just can't agree that this is *entirely* socialized, I think motherhood has something intrinsic to do with it, which is what many commenters above have alluded to as well.
posted by amorphatist at 8:21 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't mean this in any divisive way, but it's either women (as a whole, #NotAllWomen and so on) are better at it, or women and men are equal at it, or men are better at it. Maybe better is the wrong word, but more inclined? I have a seven month old daughter, and like many men, for the first few months (especially until she self-weaned at 5 months), I'm a bystander essentially. And then, and still now, my daughter's mother has no qualms about stating (well, maybe she does, but she does it anyway) that there's a nurturing connection she feels with our child that I can't possibly grasp, as I did not carry her inside me for nine months nor did I feed her from my own body for the next five. She is just plainly simple correct on this. To me it seems fairly absurd to say that that does not influence this emotional labor discussion. How could I possibly be as equipped, or inclined as her, to value the effects that emotional labor produces? When children and family are the biggest cause of emotional labor? Even if I spend every ounce of my brain-being on empathizing and trying to do the right thing, as told to me by the person oppressed, I'm never going to match her, according to her. I may as well be some cishet white dude trying to write about queer women POC.
Again, this is #NotAllWomen, but in particular, mothers. I'm not saying/asserting/insisting that being a woman causes the average woman to be better/more-inclined/pushed-towards emotional labor than the average male, but I'm fairly sure that motherhood has something quite intrinsic to do with the way it plays out. And I say this as the son of a woman who was an emotional labor martyr to the extremest degree, which has made me highly cognizant of this occurring around me. I just can't agree that this is *entirely* socialized, I think motherhood has something intrinsic to do with it, which is what many commenters above have alluded to as well.
posted by amorphatist at 8:21 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe better is the wrong word, but more inclined? I have a seven month old daughter, and like many men, for the first few months (especially until she self-weaned at 5 months), I'm a bystander essentially. And then, and still now, my daughter's mother has no qualms about stating (well, maybe she does, but she does it anyway) that there's a nurturing connection she feels with our child that I can't possibly grasp, as I did not carry her inside me for nine months nor did I feed her from my own body for the next five.
fun fact: not all emotional labor involves children! in fact, many people with children would be, by your estimation, also "essentially bystanders" to their child-rearing, because they (gasp) adopted their children!
also, this is super cissexist!
i am super tired of seeing what defines womanness reduced to motherhood! it is inaccurate and very offensive!
posted by NoraReed at 8:32 PM on July 16, 2015 [133 favorites]
fun fact: not all emotional labor involves children! in fact, many people with children would be, by your estimation, also "essentially bystanders" to their child-rearing, because they (gasp) adopted their children!
also, this is super cissexist!
i am super tired of seeing what defines womanness reduced to motherhood! it is inaccurate and very offensive!
posted by NoraReed at 8:32 PM on July 16, 2015 [133 favorites]
I have a seven month old daughter, and like many men, for the first few months (especially until she self-weaned at 5 months), I'm a bystander essentially.
This is a choice, not an inevitability. Even if y'all have chosen to breastfeed, there is no reason that you should be a bystander in the parenting of your own child. Stop trying to offload your choices onto some kind of pseudo-biological determinism.
posted by KathrynT at 8:32 PM on July 16, 2015 [121 favorites]
This is a choice, not an inevitability. Even if y'all have chosen to breastfeed, there is no reason that you should be a bystander in the parenting of your own child. Stop trying to offload your choices onto some kind of pseudo-biological determinism.
posted by KathrynT at 8:32 PM on July 16, 2015 [121 favorites]
Tons of women who don't have kids are still expected (and taught!) to do the emotional labor tasks. If I can learn it, so can you. It's not some woo-mysterious thing because babies. It's taught and learned and enforced.
posted by rtha at 8:34 PM on July 16, 2015 [83 favorites]
posted by rtha at 8:34 PM on July 16, 2015 [83 favorites]
#NotAllWomen
damn ... some good comments on this hashtag, folks. def recommend a click
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:43 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
damn ... some good comments on this hashtag, folks. def recommend a click
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:43 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I haven't had and won't have a kid, and am cisfemale, and I nonetheless put up with an unsavory degree of emotional labor expectations coming down on my head, from work and friends and family and hobbies and jerks on the street.
Did you spend no time while she was pregnant and breastfeeding considering how she felt or the baby eventually did or how you could make their lives easier? I'd bet you invested in emotional labor, even if it wasn't oxitoxin-laden in the same way or whatever. If you didn't, you're probably doing it a bit wrong.
posted by lauranesson at 8:43 PM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
Did you spend no time while she was pregnant and breastfeeding considering how she felt or the baby eventually did or how you could make their lives easier? I'd bet you invested in emotional labor, even if it wasn't oxitoxin-laden in the same way or whatever. If you didn't, you're probably doing it a bit wrong.
posted by lauranesson at 8:43 PM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
fun fact: not all emotional labor involves children!
fun fact NoraReed: nobody ever said that. Another fun fact: Again, this is #NotAllWomen, but in particular, mothers. : read the comment before you comment. Though I know that's water off a duck's back for you.
I'm a bystander essentially.
This is a choice, not an inevitability.
Maybe I should have written "bystander, essentially", with the comma, if that helps. Because yes, I essentially stand by and support the woman who is providing *life support* for that child. Everything I did could have been done by another person, if I'd been run over by a bus. Hence the "essentially".
I have a friend (wife of one of my best friends), and shortly after the birth of her first (within the first year, after she'd stopped breast-feeding), we had a drugacious night and we got into talking about the birth and she commented that it (not sure if I have the exact words right) was "violent and strange, intimate and peaceful". I was somewhat struck by that and for whatever reason we didn't talk much more about it that night, but I still amn't sure if she mean that as some sort of (possibly out-of-order) sequence, but I have a feeling she meant that she felt that simultaneously. An experience of that order of magnitude probably (IMHO) has something to do with building the social constructs that allow MIL/aunt/friends to berate even childless women for not performing the emotional labor that society apparently expects (unfairly) all women to perform. Again, IMHO.
posted by amorphatist at 8:46 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
fun fact NoraReed: nobody ever said that. Another fun fact: Again, this is #NotAllWomen, but in particular, mothers. : read the comment before you comment. Though I know that's water off a duck's back for you.
I'm a bystander essentially.
This is a choice, not an inevitability.
Maybe I should have written "bystander, essentially", with the comma, if that helps. Because yes, I essentially stand by and support the woman who is providing *life support* for that child. Everything I did could have been done by another person, if I'd been run over by a bus. Hence the "essentially".
I have a friend (wife of one of my best friends), and shortly after the birth of her first (within the first year, after she'd stopped breast-feeding), we had a drugacious night and we got into talking about the birth and she commented that it (not sure if I have the exact words right) was "violent and strange, intimate and peaceful". I was somewhat struck by that and for whatever reason we didn't talk much more about it that night, but I still amn't sure if she mean that as some sort of (possibly out-of-order) sequence, but I have a feeling she meant that she felt that simultaneously. An experience of that order of magnitude probably (IMHO) has something to do with building the social constructs that allow MIL/aunt/friends to berate even childless women for not performing the emotional labor that society apparently expects (unfairly) all women to perform. Again, IMHO.
posted by amorphatist at 8:46 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, just upthread, a new mother commented on how she took care of the feeding and her husband handled the diapers. That's emotional work and housework combined. There's no reason at all that she should be intrinsically better at changing diapers, or even at caring about changing diapers.
posted by lauranesson at 8:46 PM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by lauranesson at 8:46 PM on July 16, 2015 [31 favorites]
maybe if you don't want to be read as defining women by motherhood you shouldn't use that as the cornerstone of your BUT WHAT IF... BIOTRUTHS???? crapshooting
posted by NoraReed at 8:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [59 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 8:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [59 favorites]
Tons of women who don't have kids are still expected (and taught!) to do the emotional labor tasks.
I entirely agree with you, and I wrote as much above. I don't think the answer is just man-patriarchy though. I think this is also an inter-woman thing. It's not like women can't cause bad structures without the help of men.
posted by amorphatist at 8:49 PM on July 16, 2015
I entirely agree with you, and I wrote as much above. I don't think the answer is just man-patriarchy though. I think this is also an inter-woman thing. It's not like women can't cause bad structures without the help of men.
posted by amorphatist at 8:49 PM on July 16, 2015
don't think the answer is just man-patriarchy though. I think this is also an inter-woman thing.
Have you. . . not read the other comments in the thread?
posted by KathrynT at 8:54 PM on July 16, 2015 [60 favorites]
Have you. . . not read the other comments in the thread?
posted by KathrynT at 8:54 PM on July 16, 2015 [60 favorites]
I love this thread.
My children are on summer break from school. My husband is on sabbatical. They all NEED THINGS ALL THE TIME, including emotional work. None of them individually needs an inordinate amount of anything, but all four of them at once?
I should be getting overtime pay at this point.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 8:55 PM on July 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
My children are on summer break from school. My husband is on sabbatical. They all NEED THINGS ALL THE TIME, including emotional work. None of them individually needs an inordinate amount of anything, but all four of them at once?
I should be getting overtime pay at this point.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 8:55 PM on July 16, 2015 [15 favorites]
I don't mean this in any divisive way, but it's either women (as a whole, #NotAllWomen and so on) are better at it, or women and men are equal at it, or men are better at it. Maybe better is the wrong word, but more inclined?
Women are only "more inclined" to be that way if little girls are "more expected" to be that way. Which is exactly what happens.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [48 favorites]
Women are only "more inclined" to be that way if little girls are "more expected" to be that way. Which is exactly what happens.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [48 favorites]
I don't think the answer is just man-patriarchy though.
Women participate in the support of our own oppression. You read all the comments above by women talking about how they got most pressure to do the emotional labor from other women, yeah?
Your initial comment just really reads as biological-imperative-nurture. If you really didn't mean it that way, I think you really need to think hard about how you are framing the parenting duties of you and your wife, because to me it sounds like you are setting yourself up for a way lighter load.
posted by rtha at 8:59 PM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
Women participate in the support of our own oppression. You read all the comments above by women talking about how they got most pressure to do the emotional labor from other women, yeah?
Your initial comment just really reads as biological-imperative-nurture. If you really didn't mean it that way, I think you really need to think hard about how you are framing the parenting duties of you and your wife, because to me it sounds like you are setting yourself up for a way lighter load.
posted by rtha at 8:59 PM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
Mod note: amorphatist, this is a long thread with a lot of nuance. You seem to be coming in without having read or though about it much, and that won't work. Please try to engage with what's here. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:01 PM on July 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:01 PM on July 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
Your initial comment just really reads as biological-imperative-nurture. If you really didn't mean it that way, I think you really need to think hard about how you are framing the parenting duties of you and your wife, because to me it sounds like you are setting yourself up for a way lighter load.
Not my wife, I wonder why you would say that when I already said "my daughter's mother" above?
[amorphatist, this is a long thread with a lot of nuance. You seem to be coming in without having read or though about it much, and that won't work. Please try to engage with what's here. Thanks. ]
I've read every single bit of it, and thought about it deeply. I am in utter concurrence with the vast vast majority of comments made. If my suggestion that somehow motherhood might have something to do with the unfortunate fact that women end up having to take the greater burden of emotional labor (and that's an unfair and bad thing) is not an acceptable statement to make here, then we're really going off the deep end. Go back and read what I actually wrote and tell me what you take umbrage with, or with my tone, and pay less regard to the responses from the usual suspects.
posted by amorphatist at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Not my wife, I wonder why you would say that when I already said "my daughter's mother" above?
[amorphatist, this is a long thread with a lot of nuance. You seem to be coming in without having read or though about it much, and that won't work. Please try to engage with what's here. Thanks. ]
I've read every single bit of it, and thought about it deeply. I am in utter concurrence with the vast vast majority of comments made. If my suggestion that somehow motherhood might have something to do with the unfortunate fact that women end up having to take the greater burden of emotional labor (and that's an unfair and bad thing) is not an acceptable statement to make here, then we're really going off the deep end. Go back and read what I actually wrote and tell me what you take umbrage with, or with my tone, and pay less regard to the responses from the usual suspects.
posted by amorphatist at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Coming into a thread without having done the labor of reading and thinking about the original article or doing the same about the thread to talk about the how the labor between you and your childrearing partner is unbalanced (in your favor) because of [theory] and expecting all the women in the thread to do the labor of reading your comment and then dealing with all of the resulting feelings (the emotional labor of AAAUUGGHH) is pretty illustrative what it means to have male privilege.
posted by NoraReed at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [85 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [85 favorites]
I am super good at emotional labor. I have really high levels of empathy. I also have never been pregnant or given birth and don't have any children at all through any other means (i.e. adoption). I'm a little confused by the connection you're making between a mother-child bond and emotional labor as I see the two as completely different things. Emotional labor does include things like empathy, and some people are naturally better at that than others (though I believe empathy can be taught). But this entire thread has been about things like remembering birthdays, division of housework, tending to kids and their needs, planning things, checking to see how people are doing, helping others to be more comfortable, anticipating day-to-day needs (like making dinner), etc. These are the things that make up emotional labor and these are absolutely things that are 100% taught. Noticing and acting on them are things that are both passively modeled for and actively taught to girls pretty much from birth.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [41 favorites]
posted by triggerfinger at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [41 favorites]
I think you might be conflating two different things, and missing some valuable time you could and should be bonding with your daughter. Maybe your partner doesn't want that. Or maybe she does and you don't know how to step in. But I don't think it's biology. If it were, I don't think you would see the mountains of duress women who are obligated into these roles end up feeling.
My husband who considers himself a feminist and an ally struggles with the concept of emotional work, mental labor, and just being an equal partner. Sometimes I get tired of fighting for it too, until I realize I'm going to break if it doesn't change. And sometime times I'm so angry about it, especially after being told I'm negative. Negative to him means discussing some level of planning and thought work that he's abdicated himself from. Not only does he not want to do it, he doesn't want to have to hear about it. And why would he? The past 15 of the 20 years we've been together, he hasn't needed to. I didn't have the language to express the burden I felt. Now I do, he talks about wanting to help, and I believe he does. But every fiber of who he is is revolting against this.
So I've been trying to take a deep breath. Like every new skill, it takes work. And more work when you didn't even know it was a skill that needed to exist. He's learning, sometimes at a snails pace; but I think he wants to be the husband in the equal house.
And in this manner women are better at emotional and mental labor than men. But it's not a side effect of biology, just of learning something from birth. You teach a child to play piano from as early as possible, and there is a good chance they'll excel at it. That no more means they're more biologically capable of playing the piano than anyone else. They are just well practiced.
posted by LANA! at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [34 favorites]
My husband who considers himself a feminist and an ally struggles with the concept of emotional work, mental labor, and just being an equal partner. Sometimes I get tired of fighting for it too, until I realize I'm going to break if it doesn't change. And sometime times I'm so angry about it, especially after being told I'm negative. Negative to him means discussing some level of planning and thought work that he's abdicated himself from. Not only does he not want to do it, he doesn't want to have to hear about it. And why would he? The past 15 of the 20 years we've been together, he hasn't needed to. I didn't have the language to express the burden I felt. Now I do, he talks about wanting to help, and I believe he does. But every fiber of who he is is revolting against this.
So I've been trying to take a deep breath. Like every new skill, it takes work. And more work when you didn't even know it was a skill that needed to exist. He's learning, sometimes at a snails pace; but I think he wants to be the husband in the equal house.
And in this manner women are better at emotional and mental labor than men. But it's not a side effect of biology, just of learning something from birth. You teach a child to play piano from as early as possible, and there is a good chance they'll excel at it. That no more means they're more biologically capable of playing the piano than anyone else. They are just well practiced.
posted by LANA! at 9:08 PM on July 16, 2015 [34 favorites]
Not my wife, I wonder why you would say that when I already said "my daughter's mother"
I apologize for the shorthand, and appreciate the correction.
Does it change my point? I don't think so. I can't tell if you do, because you didn't address it.
posted by rtha at 9:17 PM on July 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
I apologize for the shorthand, and appreciate the correction.
Does it change my point? I don't think so. I can't tell if you do, because you didn't address it.
posted by rtha at 9:17 PM on July 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm a little confused by the connection you're making between a mother-child bond and emotional labor as I see the two as completely different things.
No, I agree entirely they are two different things! What I'm saying is that there is possibly (as I've observed) a connection between the structures amongst women (MIL, expectations of being the nurturer, etc), applied even to childless women today, because that inter-women structure emphasizes the importance of child-bearing/nurturing etc. I'm not applauding this at all, I think it's terrible that women are expected to bear that burden. But I don't think it's just the man-patriarchy at work, the woman-patriarchy is in play as well. And it's not like there can't be nasty mother-in-laws who also want to use their power-position to push down non-conforming individuals. This is not to excuse all the shit that men do all the time, even 10,000 years from now long after we achieve the perfect harmonious society men will still owe women reparations for all the shitty things they've done. I come from probably the most matriarchal western society (Ireland), and I've seen the pressure that my (strongly woman-oriented) family puts on the young woman members, and I suspect a lot of it is self-righteousness about having Given Birth and Raised A Family Right and how they aren't doing the emotional labor that Irish women should do because we're strong Irish women and aren't babies marvelous?. I suspect this is more universal than just Ireland.
posted by amorphatist at 9:23 PM on July 16, 2015
No, I agree entirely they are two different things! What I'm saying is that there is possibly (as I've observed) a connection between the structures amongst women (MIL, expectations of being the nurturer, etc), applied even to childless women today, because that inter-women structure emphasizes the importance of child-bearing/nurturing etc. I'm not applauding this at all, I think it's terrible that women are expected to bear that burden. But I don't think it's just the man-patriarchy at work, the woman-patriarchy is in play as well. And it's not like there can't be nasty mother-in-laws who also want to use their power-position to push down non-conforming individuals. This is not to excuse all the shit that men do all the time, even 10,000 years from now long after we achieve the perfect harmonious society men will still owe women reparations for all the shitty things they've done. I come from probably the most matriarchal western society (Ireland), and I've seen the pressure that my (strongly woman-oriented) family puts on the young woman members, and I suspect a lot of it is self-righteousness about having Given Birth and Raised A Family Right and how they aren't doing the emotional labor that Irish women should do because we're strong Irish women and aren't babies marvelous?. I suspect this is more universal than just Ireland.
posted by amorphatist at 9:23 PM on July 16, 2015
it is possible that people are not understanding you because "man-patriarchy" and "woman-patriarchy" are terms you just made up so no one knows what they mean, and less inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt because of the boorish thread hijacking and ignoring of mod notes.
posted by NoraReed at 9:25 PM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 9:25 PM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
I apologize for the shorthand, and appreciate the correction.
Does it change my point? I don't think so. I can't tell if you do, because you didn't address it.
rtha, I sincerely appreciate the apology, and my apologies for not addressing your concern directly, I don't want to be seen as "taking on all comers" when I've already had a mod (unfairly IMHO) address me, and I'm already interacting with other commenters. If the mods are ok with it, I'll get back to you.
posted by amorphatist at 9:26 PM on July 16, 2015
Does it change my point? I don't think so. I can't tell if you do, because you didn't address it.
rtha, I sincerely appreciate the apology, and my apologies for not addressing your concern directly, I don't want to be seen as "taking on all comers" when I've already had a mod (unfairly IMHO) address me, and I'm already interacting with other commenters. If the mods are ok with it, I'll get back to you.
posted by amorphatist at 9:26 PM on July 16, 2015
There is no "man-patriarchy" and "woman-patriarchy." There is one system, and it takes advantage of oppressed people oppressing other oppressed people in order to free up more time for the non-oppressed people to do other things.
posted by jaguar at 9:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [58 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 9:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [58 favorites]
Mod note: amorphatist, the reason it looks like you haven't read the thread is you're restating relatively minor points that have been made several times over like they're some huge revelation. This is frustrating for everyone.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [49 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:26 PM on July 16, 2015 [49 favorites]
it is possible that people are not understanding you because "man-patriarchy" and "woman-patriarchy" are terms you just made up so no one knows what they mean, and less inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt because of the boorish thread hijacking and ignoring of mod notes.
Man-patriachy = the parts of the patriarchy perpetrated by men. "Woman-patriarchy" = the parts of the patriarchy perpetrated by women. If there are terms already in use, I'm happy to use them, apologies.
posted by amorphatist at 9:35 PM on July 16, 2015
Man-patriachy = the parts of the patriarchy perpetrated by men. "Woman-patriarchy" = the parts of the patriarchy perpetrated by women. If there are terms already in use, I'm happy to use them, apologies.
posted by amorphatist at 9:35 PM on July 16, 2015
restating relatively minor points that have been made several times over like they're some huge revelation
pater-splaining
posted by Thella at 9:37 PM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
pater-splaining
posted by Thella at 9:37 PM on July 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
✨ pointless derail ✨
posted by easter queen at 9:39 PM on July 16, 2015 [46 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 9:39 PM on July 16, 2015 [46 favorites]
Because yes, I essentially stand by and support the woman who is providing *life support* for that child.
If you really, really want to participate in that work rather than standing by while someone else does 100% of it, there's a secret method, which I will tell you about for $50. Equipment you'll need: one (1) lactating woman, one (1) breast pump, which your family probably already owns if only as an emergency back-up item, one (1) nursing bottle, and one (1) bed or comfy chair.
Despite never having been any sort of parent, I have participated firsthand in the glorious mysterious inspiring nurturing blah blah blah blah ritual of providing sacred life support to an infant using this very method hundreds of times since I was like 10 years old.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [52 favorites]
If you really, really want to participate in that work rather than standing by while someone else does 100% of it, there's a secret method, which I will tell you about for $50. Equipment you'll need: one (1) lactating woman, one (1) breast pump, which your family probably already owns if only as an emergency back-up item, one (1) nursing bottle, and one (1) bed or comfy chair.
Despite never having been any sort of parent, I have participated firsthand in the glorious mysterious inspiring nurturing blah blah blah blah ritual of providing sacred life support to an infant using this very method hundreds of times since I was like 10 years old.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [52 favorites]
I admittedly read halfway and skipped down to post, because this resonated for me so hard. The role I play at work - which I do really well, because both Patriarchy & Alcoholic Co-Dependency have trained me well - is the peacemaker. Can't get people to stop yelling loud enough to plan a project? Send in RogueTech! Need to get teams who refuse to work with one another on the phone to work together? Send in RogueTech! Oh, and RogueTech, I know I gave that project you wanted to X, who has the social skills of a wet paper sack, but hey can you do all the social work on it, the planning, the talking to people, the inevitable smoothing over that will be needed once he's said something really stupid and alienated half the group? Be a dear now, won't you?
Never mind that these people are adults and at WORK and should be able to do these things themselves. Nevermind that I have IT and project management and analysis skills that are just as good if not better. My role has slowly evolved to glorified Emotional Handler and it just sucks, and I'm looking for a new job because of it. And I have no idea how to make it so I don't keep falling into this dynamic.
My husband said today, "I think I know why, but tell me why this %work situation% is making you so angry." And I replied, "I'm mad at myself because I forgot that Capitalism basically makes work a really elegant version of prostitution, where the Company is paying for my brain, my time, and my emotions, no more, no less. I'm mad because I formed relationships with these people, and because I trusted these people, and because I am so tired of having to be constantly on guard against this behavior not only in other people, but in myself."
It's fucking bullshit and I still haven't figured out how to show enough "caring" to not be considered a "cold bitch", yet not get sucked into the "Team's Emotional Mother" role again.
posted by RogueTech at 9:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [72 favorites]
Never mind that these people are adults and at WORK and should be able to do these things themselves. Nevermind that I have IT and project management and analysis skills that are just as good if not better. My role has slowly evolved to glorified Emotional Handler and it just sucks, and I'm looking for a new job because of it. And I have no idea how to make it so I don't keep falling into this dynamic.
My husband said today, "I think I know why, but tell me why this %work situation% is making you so angry." And I replied, "I'm mad at myself because I forgot that Capitalism basically makes work a really elegant version of prostitution, where the Company is paying for my brain, my time, and my emotions, no more, no less. I'm mad because I formed relationships with these people, and because I trusted these people, and because I am so tired of having to be constantly on guard against this behavior not only in other people, but in myself."
It's fucking bullshit and I still haven't figured out how to show enough "caring" to not be considered a "cold bitch", yet not get sucked into the "Team's Emotional Mother" role again.
posted by RogueTech at 9:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [72 favorites]
Man-patriachy = the parts of the patriarchy perpetrated by men. "Woman-patriarchy" = the parts of the patriarchy perpetrated by women. If there are terms already in use, I'm happy to use them, apologies.
Maybe the reason why there are no terms is because women have been explaining their experiences around this in plain language up until now? And there's no real need to make up loaded and obfuscatory terms just to mansplain the experiences of women back to them?
posted by Conspire at 9:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [73 favorites]
Maybe the reason why there are no terms is because women have been explaining their experiences around this in plain language up until now? And there's no real need to make up loaded and obfuscatory terms just to mansplain the experiences of women back to them?
posted by Conspire at 9:48 PM on July 16, 2015 [73 favorites]
Equipment you'll need: one (1) lactating woman, one (1) breast pump, which your family probably already owns if only as an emergency back-up item, one (1) nursing bottle, and one (1) bed or comfy chair.
Despite never having been any sort of parent [...]
It shows that you've never been any sort of parent. We tried. Well, my partner tried. She tried until she cried. It was terrible. She spent hours and got out an ounce or an ounce and a half. Not all women can use breast pumps. You literally do not know what you're talking about.
posted by amorphatist at 9:49 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Despite never having been any sort of parent [...]
It shows that you've never been any sort of parent. We tried. Well, my partner tried. She tried until she cried. It was terrible. She spent hours and got out an ounce or an ounce and a half. Not all women can use breast pumps. You literally do not know what you're talking about.
posted by amorphatist at 9:49 PM on July 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Then she can do all the nursing and you can do all the other baby care. Not everyone can pump, but anyone can change diapers / burp the baby / bathe the baby / bounce the baby for hours on a giant exercise ball because that's the only thing that will stop her screaming / take the baby to the well-baby visits / get up in the middle of the night to check on the baby to see if food is what she needs or if she just needs a diaper or a cuddle or something.
posted by KathrynT at 9:52 PM on July 16, 2015 [65 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 9:52 PM on July 16, 2015 [65 favorites]
I mean, for pete's sake, nursing is exhausting -- it is LITERALLY DRAINING -- but it is not the only thing a baby needs! There is nothing about gestating, birthing, and nursing a child that makes it any easier or more intuitive to attend to any one of those other myriad needs. In fact, the biological necessity of gestating, birthing, and nursing a child makes it even MORE crucial and essential that the baby's non-gestational parent be proactive about stepping up to attend to the baby's other needs, lest the situation start off bad from the very beginning. You are not powerless here. If you chose to abdicate those duties, that's on you.
posted by KathrynT at 9:55 PM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 9:55 PM on July 16, 2015 [67 favorites]
Yea, you can literally do anything that doesn't require a breast in this situation. Sorry you don't have a mystical "bond" (which, btw, not all mothers have either).
Speaking of literally not know what you're talking about-- you do not, at all, in this discussion of sexism.
posted by easter queen at 9:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [43 favorites]
Speaking of literally not know what you're talking about-- you do not, at all, in this discussion of sexism.
posted by easter queen at 9:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [43 favorites]
On emotional labor at work- it seems like every job I had, women were set up to be there to support the men. It didn't matter what the role. Plan parties? Women. Order food? Women. Make sure everyone's egos were adequately stroked? Women. And even when there were events where everyone was expected to participate, men would often ask their wives to make food, or offer to bring bottle of soda to pot luck dinners. Women organized, set up, and cleaned up work place social events.
The number of times I was cornered to hear a man's problems was astonishing. Not that women didn't share either, but that was a two way street. Men expected and dumped their emotional burdens on us, and yet none ever asked how we were doing.
There was one time I was assigned to a rogue project with a couple men. It was rogue as in it wasn't an official project, but they decided to first assign a different female coworker, then me to it. It turns out one of the senior executives really just wanted someone to listen to how brilliant his ideas were. And I didn't know it at the time, but apparently assigning women to him to hear him talk about stuff was an ongoing problem. Never mind he was a little pervy and spent too much time looking at my tits (the woman before me had the same problem, I found out later.) he never said any think particularly offensive, but I became super aware of my clothing in a way I never had before. I'm large breasted and tend to dress modestly. I started making sure Tuesday's I wore the bulkiest tops I owned. One Tuesday I nearly had a panic attack because I dressed normally, forgetting my weeklymeeting counseling session. And again, he never said anything untoward, but it was clear my role was not to get this project launched, but to be the person that listened to this person's "brilliant" ideas. I was reduced from senior designer to emotional support. And after the fact, my (male) bosses joked about it. Eventually I got pulled from the non-existent project, and the executive would come by my desk for a friendly chat. Never how I was doing, but to tell me how he was doing. He could eat up hours of my time and no one would stop it and I had no recourse -in fairness, a male colleague did one say he had to work with this person and he would follow him into the bathroom to keep talking- but either way, the burden got shifted to women intentionally and without remorse. Eventually I was moved twice so the executive couldn't find me. Literally, once or twice I was told to scram because he was searching.
That's probably not close to my worst emotional labor story; but it is the most ridiculous.
Oh, then there was the developer on the same project as me. Designers and developers were in different departments. Now I have a long history in the web/Internet. And because of that, I have more experience with server and programming than many of my peers. In this case, this developer apparently felt some kinship with me after I smacked down a few incorrect assertions he made about the feasibility of a project. (He was trying to deny it was possible, and knowing just enough programming to call his bluff, I did). For some reason, that endeared me too him. A week later he corners me in a hallway and tells me this plan for how his department is going to screw over my department. I don't even recall the specifics, to be honest. But I didn't ask to know about it, and it was something that my boss could prevent if he knew about it. So as soon as programmer is finished pouring his heart out to me about this slick maneuver, I walked over to my boss and explained everything. And the plan was thwarted. A few days later, programmer was so pissed because he "confided in me" and "you weren't supposed to tell anyone" and "I thought your were on my side." Why? I asked. I never asked to be told this and I never said I was going to be complicit. The only thing I did was let you finish telling your story. But according to him, I violated his trust just by listening.
Some of these are funny stories now, but they are the basis of some really screwed up interactions and relationships. I can't count the egos I stroked to get a small amount of respect.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [61 favorites]
The number of times I was cornered to hear a man's problems was astonishing. Not that women didn't share either, but that was a two way street. Men expected and dumped their emotional burdens on us, and yet none ever asked how we were doing.
There was one time I was assigned to a rogue project with a couple men. It was rogue as in it wasn't an official project, but they decided to first assign a different female coworker, then me to it. It turns out one of the senior executives really just wanted someone to listen to how brilliant his ideas were. And I didn't know it at the time, but apparently assigning women to him to hear him talk about stuff was an ongoing problem. Never mind he was a little pervy and spent too much time looking at my tits (the woman before me had the same problem, I found out later.) he never said any think particularly offensive, but I became super aware of my clothing in a way I never had before. I'm large breasted and tend to dress modestly. I started making sure Tuesday's I wore the bulkiest tops I owned. One Tuesday I nearly had a panic attack because I dressed normally, forgetting my weekly
That's probably not close to my worst emotional labor story; but it is the most ridiculous.
Oh, then there was the developer on the same project as me. Designers and developers were in different departments. Now I have a long history in the web/Internet. And because of that, I have more experience with server and programming than many of my peers. In this case, this developer apparently felt some kinship with me after I smacked down a few incorrect assertions he made about the feasibility of a project. (He was trying to deny it was possible, and knowing just enough programming to call his bluff, I did). For some reason, that endeared me too him. A week later he corners me in a hallway and tells me this plan for how his department is going to screw over my department. I don't even recall the specifics, to be honest. But I didn't ask to know about it, and it was something that my boss could prevent if he knew about it. So as soon as programmer is finished pouring his heart out to me about this slick maneuver, I walked over to my boss and explained everything. And the plan was thwarted. A few days later, programmer was so pissed because he "confided in me" and "you weren't supposed to tell anyone" and "I thought your were on my side." Why? I asked. I never asked to be told this and I never said I was going to be complicit. The only thing I did was let you finish telling your story. But according to him, I violated his trust just by listening.
Some of these are funny stories now, but they are the basis of some really screwed up interactions and relationships. I can't count the egos I stroked to get a small amount of respect.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:56 PM on July 16, 2015 [61 favorites]
Nobody owes me reparations. I just want to be treated like a damn equal.
Also, the best term for this so-called"man-patriarchy" and "women-patriarchy" is just simply "patriarchy."
posted by sockermom at 9:57 PM on July 16, 2015 [55 favorites]
Also, the best term for this so-called"man-patriarchy" and "women-patriarchy" is just simply "patriarchy."
posted by sockermom at 9:57 PM on July 16, 2015 [55 favorites]
My brother once said, proudly, that he doesn't take any notice of anything unless it splats in his face, because that way he knows he is only dealing with the important stuff.
Which explains so very much about his relationships with his now adult kids and his siblings.
posted by Thella at 9:59 PM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
Which explains so very much about his relationships with his now adult kids and his siblings.
posted by Thella at 9:59 PM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
Then she can do all the nursing and you can do all the other baby care.
That's what I've done. She provided the essential life-support, I did all the other things. My daughter is upstairs asleep right now while my partner is down in Denver going to a jazz club with my best friend who just flew in from San Diego for my birthday last weekend because we can't afford a baby-sitter after having one last weekend for my bday, and she wanted a night out and she deserves it. So I'm on the blue while the baby sleeps.
Just to reiterate this point: women with smaller breasts (my partner is Asian-American, with A-cups when not lactating) often can't easily pump, and that shit about the breast pump is insulting, especially from somebody who isn't a parent. We bought the best model off of Amazon, and when that didn't work, we rented an industrial-grade pump from Kaiser, and it still didn't work. We went to a lactation consultant, several times. We tried. That comment is the definition of 'splaining.
Also, the best term for this so-called "man-patriarchy" and "women-patriarchy" is just simply "patriarchy."
If you insist that there's not a possibility of differentiating what some of my aunts do to their daughters and nieces versus what the uncles do, I can't agree with you.
posted by amorphatist at 10:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's what I've done. She provided the essential life-support, I did all the other things. My daughter is upstairs asleep right now while my partner is down in Denver going to a jazz club with my best friend who just flew in from San Diego for my birthday last weekend because we can't afford a baby-sitter after having one last weekend for my bday, and she wanted a night out and she deserves it. So I'm on the blue while the baby sleeps.
Just to reiterate this point: women with smaller breasts (my partner is Asian-American, with A-cups when not lactating) often can't easily pump, and that shit about the breast pump is insulting, especially from somebody who isn't a parent. We bought the best model off of Amazon, and when that didn't work, we rented an industrial-grade pump from Kaiser, and it still didn't work. We went to a lactation consultant, several times. We tried. That comment is the definition of 'splaining.
Also, the best term for this so-called "man-patriarchy" and "women-patriarchy" is just simply "patriarchy."
If you insist that there's not a possibility of differentiating what some of my aunts do to their daughters and nieces versus what the uncles do, I can't agree with you.
posted by amorphatist at 10:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
It shows that you've never been any sort of parent. We tried. Well, my partner tried. She tried until she cried. It was terrible. She spent hours and got out an ounce or an ounce and a half. Not all women can use breast pumps. You literally do not know what you're talking about.
I apologize, and you're right that you both tried. I wouldn't actually call that standing by (as you did) but participating. If you did stuff to make that less terrible for her or your child or all of you, then you did some of the emotional work in that situation.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I apologize, and you're right that you both tried. I wouldn't actually call that standing by (as you did) but participating. If you did stuff to make that less terrible for her or your child or all of you, then you did some of the emotional work in that situation.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Let's move on from the single-person focus, please. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:05 PM on July 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:05 PM on July 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
Sorry FelliniBlank, I posted that before I saw your comment. Apology accepted, graciously.
posted by amorphatist at 10:05 PM on July 16, 2015
posted by amorphatist at 10:05 PM on July 16, 2015
If you insist that there's not a possibility of differentiating what some of my aunts do to their daughters and nieces versus what the uncles do, I can't agree with you.
Partnered dancing has gendered roles, but we don't call that doing man-dancing and woman-dancing. We just call it dancing. Same with what your aunts do vs what your uncles do in regards to their daughters and nieces: it's just one thing, performed in different ways.
posted by palomar at 10:06 PM on July 16, 2015 [57 favorites]
Partnered dancing has gendered roles, but we don't call that doing man-dancing and woman-dancing. We just call it dancing. Same with what your aunts do vs what your uncles do in regards to their daughters and nieces: it's just one thing, performed in different ways.
posted by palomar at 10:06 PM on July 16, 2015 [57 favorites]
Yeah, the breast size thing is really weird, especially considering that "A-cup" is a completely meaningless term for actually describing the size of a breast.
posted by NoraReed at 10:11 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 10:11 PM on July 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
Mod note: Seriously, dude, let it go.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:33 PM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 10:33 PM on July 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't know. I think the "just pump" stuff is so super complicated from a feminist perspective. I do think that breastfeeding involves a significant amount of both emotional and physical labor. It also has nice happy goopy lovey hormones attached. I hate pumping, and I'm lucky that I rarely need to, but I don't think my unwillingness to pump means that I should also shoulder the entire weight of emotional caretaking in my household, not only for my child (who, sure, turns to me first for comfort) but also for, like, our extended family.
There's an interesting bit in the documentary Breastmilk where one couple muses that they found themselves divided between more traditional gender roles since becoming parents, but the woman pointed out that that didn't need to be the case--there's no real essential reason why housework or, say, buying the in-laws Christmas gifts needs to be paired with nursing. I think a big part of it is that nursing children aren't really tolerated in workplaces (in part because pumps are treated as equivalent to breastfeeding) or even in public. It's still assumed that the "sphere" of mothers of young children is the home. But why not offices with great daycare attached? Why not more white collar working moms while their husbands stay home and clean house and keep track of appointments?
I think pumping generally can be a great tool for many working mothers but it's also a lot of work and not always as good for milk production and the idea that it (or formula) will just liberate women in a lot of ways troubles me, as someone who enjoys my breastfeeding relationship and doesn't want to be liberated from it but would still like to not be the one to worry about scheduling play dates between my husband and his family.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:39 PM on July 16, 2015 [20 favorites]
There's an interesting bit in the documentary Breastmilk where one couple muses that they found themselves divided between more traditional gender roles since becoming parents, but the woman pointed out that that didn't need to be the case--there's no real essential reason why housework or, say, buying the in-laws Christmas gifts needs to be paired with nursing. I think a big part of it is that nursing children aren't really tolerated in workplaces (in part because pumps are treated as equivalent to breastfeeding) or even in public. It's still assumed that the "sphere" of mothers of young children is the home. But why not offices with great daycare attached? Why not more white collar working moms while their husbands stay home and clean house and keep track of appointments?
I think pumping generally can be a great tool for many working mothers but it's also a lot of work and not always as good for milk production and the idea that it (or formula) will just liberate women in a lot of ways troubles me, as someone who enjoys my breastfeeding relationship and doesn't want to be liberated from it but would still like to not be the one to worry about scheduling play dates between my husband and his family.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:39 PM on July 16, 2015 [20 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that pumping was being offered as one example of the many ways that a non-gestational, non-lactating parent could support the other parent.
I'm also entirely sure that this is a derail from the main topic, which is emotional labor.
posted by Lexica at 10:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
I'm also entirely sure that this is a derail from the main topic, which is emotional labor.
posted by Lexica at 10:41 PM on July 16, 2015 [37 favorites]
I think it's a common assumption, though, that breastfeeding and other, broader kinds of emotional labor are intertwined. I also think that pumping is also (somewhat blithely) offered as a panacea for that. Heck, when my daughter was about two months old, a friend's husband told me that I had to start pumping so that my daughter and husband could bond. That they were bonded just fine through other activities, and that this option meant creating still-more physical labor for me while taking away something I enjoyed didn't seem to bother him.
I disagree with a lot of what amorphatist has said here, but I also think that "get a pump and have dad bottle feed" isn't an option that is nearly as equalizing in terms of emotional and physical labor as many people assume.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:52 PM on July 16, 2015 [21 favorites]
I disagree with a lot of what amorphatist has said here, but I also think that "get a pump and have dad bottle feed" isn't an option that is nearly as equalizing in terms of emotional and physical labor as many people assume.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:52 PM on July 16, 2015 [21 favorites]
Emotional labor: how many times do I need to say that until the new trash bag is in place, the "taking out the trash" job isn't complete? Apparently at least once more.
posted by Lexica at 11:01 PM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 11:01 PM on July 16, 2015 [29 favorites]
From the study Monkey Toes linked to
Anyone not pulling their weight in the emotional labour stakes is having important emotional and social resources provided for them gratis. These resources cannot be bought and if you can't reciprocate, you are taking more than your fair share.
posted by Thella at 11:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
The concept of emotional work describes the actions taken to give care and emotionally engage with others. Conceptualizing this as a form of work challenges assumptions of care as natural, discretionary, effortless,Most of the work of emotional labour takes place in the heart and mind and is thus invisible to those who don't know it exists. The output, the physical manifestation of caring engagement is often performed with such grace that it looks almost ... natural, discretionary, effortless, and without consequence. But it is not, of course. It is often enjoyable but also excruciatingly demanding and frustrating. And necessary for a healthy functioning life and society.
and without consequence (England & Farkas, 1986; Erickson, 1993). In families, emotional work is one of the ways important emotional and social resources are built and distributed. Access to these resources has potent effects on well-being (Beach et al., 1993; Burg & Seeman, 1994; Taylor et al., 1997).
Anyone not pulling their weight in the emotional labour stakes is having important emotional and social resources provided for them gratis. These resources cannot be bought and if you can't reciprocate, you are taking more than your fair share.
posted by Thella at 11:02 PM on July 16, 2015 [44 favorites]
I'm done coordinating lunches for my group of coworkers. Done. Done inviting people so no one feels left out, done picking the restaurant, done worrying about who can eat what where, done finding the best time. Just all of it. Immediately off my shoulders starting tomorrow.
Thank you for this thread.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:15 PM on July 16, 2015 [73 favorites]
Thank you for this thread.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:15 PM on July 16, 2015 [73 favorites]
When I wrote that emotional labor extends beyond entitlement beyond #notallmen, I was examining the multitude of ways this type and expectation of labor permeates throughout society.
Regardless of who is enforcing whatever norm is being discussed, these experiences occur in what is generally recognized as a patriarchal society. A system which as mentioned in almost every gender related thread, harms men as well as women.
An example of that harm could include strictly held gender roles where "only a mother can have this special bond" - a very Gender Studies 101 topic that can also serve as a dog-whistle for entrenched views. Perhaps, our rejection of this line of reasoning will allow you a deeper connection with your child, but in general, such discussion becomes at best, a derail, and at worst, baiting for false debate over perceived harm.
I'm only wading in, because I've stressed the societal role in my previous comments. I did so, because like so many others, I'm harmed and burdened by the other ways emotional labor manifests. But for me, this conversation involves more than a discussion of harm - I'm certain, based on what I read, that I inflict it as well.
Moving forward, I can use these concepts and vocabulary to express and define my experiences, while also attempting to be cognisant of the labor I ask others to engage in as well.
posted by bindr at 11:17 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Regardless of who is enforcing whatever norm is being discussed, these experiences occur in what is generally recognized as a patriarchal society. A system which as mentioned in almost every gender related thread, harms men as well as women.
An example of that harm could include strictly held gender roles where "only a mother can have this special bond" - a very Gender Studies 101 topic that can also serve as a dog-whistle for entrenched views. Perhaps, our rejection of this line of reasoning will allow you a deeper connection with your child, but in general, such discussion becomes at best, a derail, and at worst, baiting for false debate over perceived harm.
I'm only wading in, because I've stressed the societal role in my previous comments. I did so, because like so many others, I'm harmed and burdened by the other ways emotional labor manifests. But for me, this conversation involves more than a discussion of harm - I'm certain, based on what I read, that I inflict it as well.
Moving forward, I can use these concepts and vocabulary to express and define my experiences, while also attempting to be cognisant of the labor I ask others to engage in as well.
posted by bindr at 11:17 PM on July 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think it's really useful to distinguish emotional labour from domestic work, even within a household context. The two go hand in hand a lot and they're both unpaid work that women are expected to do, but they feel distinct and they seem to have different logistics. When my partner and I started trying to rebalance our lives post-kids, we put a lot of work into working out who was doing what jobs around the house and with the kids (mostly her, no surprises). Listing "all the domestic jobs" and reallocating them in a way we both felt was fair was a tedious exercise, but not conceptually difficult. Because we can enumerate the jobs honestly, we can allocate them fairly (or less unfairly: "fair" is hard to assess). Something like a 50-50 split isn't impossible, though I don't claim to be there.
The emotional labour side feels different to me. Tracking kids schedules, remembering whose turn it is to do a chore, meeting our neighbourhood folks and remembering stuff about them, caring about each other's problems and talking them through, etc. It's not only that it's hard work, it's amorphous work. Listing "all the emotional jobs" and reallocating them isn't even a thing that makes sense to me. Even worse, a lot of those jobs aren't things that can be easily carved up and allocated separately, because everything depends on everything else. Arranging play dates for the kids is linked to remembering when the school holidays are on and to what everyone else in our lives is up to. We end up partly solving the problem by sharing calendars and letting google do the work, but it doesn't solve much. The sheer amount of time that we spend on endlessly communicating what so-and-so told parent A about kid A, and what that means for event B planned by parent B for kid B... ugh. It's exhausting, and it's a duplication of effort. I swear that at this point I'm doing about 40% of a "full load" (whatever that means), but she's still doing about 80%. Even if we ever get it all sorted properly it won't be a 50-50 split, it'll be something like a 70-70 split because everything gets duplicated and there's no way around the need to constantly communicate everything. Emotional labour is tricky.
posted by langtonsant at 12:54 AM on July 17, 2015 [37 favorites]
The emotional labour side feels different to me. Tracking kids schedules, remembering whose turn it is to do a chore, meeting our neighbourhood folks and remembering stuff about them, caring about each other's problems and talking them through, etc. It's not only that it's hard work, it's amorphous work. Listing "all the emotional jobs" and reallocating them isn't even a thing that makes sense to me. Even worse, a lot of those jobs aren't things that can be easily carved up and allocated separately, because everything depends on everything else. Arranging play dates for the kids is linked to remembering when the school holidays are on and to what everyone else in our lives is up to. We end up partly solving the problem by sharing calendars and letting google do the work, but it doesn't solve much. The sheer amount of time that we spend on endlessly communicating what so-and-so told parent A about kid A, and what that means for event B planned by parent B for kid B... ugh. It's exhausting, and it's a duplication of effort. I swear that at this point I'm doing about 40% of a "full load" (whatever that means), but she's still doing about 80%. Even if we ever get it all sorted properly it won't be a 50-50 split, it'll be something like a 70-70 split because everything gets duplicated and there's no way around the need to constantly communicate everything. Emotional labour is tricky.
posted by langtonsant at 12:54 AM on July 17, 2015 [37 favorites]
Value hitherto unacknowledged that is uncovered and elucidated as this article does is a funny thing. It is, in short, the feeling that you've been cheated. The feeling that one have been cheated is an essential operative feeling in our society; it's a feeling explicitly used to enforce the most basic norms of capitalism: the "invisible hand," the presumably ineluctable force of individuals seeking to secure what is in their own interests. The required and expected response when one realizes that one has been cheated is to ask for compensation - which interestingly Jess Zimmerman did not actually do in the main article, though she toyed with that as a nicely vivid illustration. There's another, deeper possible response to the realization that one has been cheated: one can also recognize that labor is more than monetary worth - that it is power, sheer power, a stake in the vast forces that built the world, the power to say "no" and stop those forces if the immeasurable value of that labor is being purposefully ignored - and the power to band together with other workers to bend that power to one's own will and build something better.
Which is really just what I see people saying here - sorry for the feeble attempt to explain it to myself, but I'm processing, and (yes) I'm a man so I think I need to process this stuff, in the face of such a wonderfully interesting article and such a surfeit of thoughtful discussion here. It's very interesting, thinking about this stuff in terms of labor. I'm a musician, and I have often had other musicians give me the talk about not giving it away for free, since music has value - demanding to be paid for gigs, etc. And I think those musicians, far from being selfish in saying this, were installing in me the value of respecting yourself and what you do with your hands, your abilities, your skills - your labor. By exercising their own self-respect, they imparted it to me, and they gave me a gift that is beyond price in doing so. Ultimately it's better for all that everybody have the space and freedom to respect themselves and say "you know what? fuck this" when they've found themselves being taken for granted and their labor is in vain and is exhausting them.
Anyway - thanks for this excellent article, sciatrix, and to those who've made such useful and thought-provoking comments here.
posted by koeselitz at 1:17 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
Which is really just what I see people saying here - sorry for the feeble attempt to explain it to myself, but I'm processing, and (yes) I'm a man so I think I need to process this stuff, in the face of such a wonderfully interesting article and such a surfeit of thoughtful discussion here. It's very interesting, thinking about this stuff in terms of labor. I'm a musician, and I have often had other musicians give me the talk about not giving it away for free, since music has value - demanding to be paid for gigs, etc. And I think those musicians, far from being selfish in saying this, were installing in me the value of respecting yourself and what you do with your hands, your abilities, your skills - your labor. By exercising their own self-respect, they imparted it to me, and they gave me a gift that is beyond price in doing so. Ultimately it's better for all that everybody have the space and freedom to respect themselves and say "you know what? fuck this" when they've found themselves being taken for granted and their labor is in vain and is exhausting them.
Anyway - thanks for this excellent article, sciatrix, and to those who've made such useful and thought-provoking comments here.
posted by koeselitz at 1:17 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
emotional labor of caring about emotional labor
NB: Eyebrows McGee gets credit for inventing the secondary market for emotional trading.
posted by biffa at 1:20 AM on July 17, 2015 [37 favorites]
NB: Eyebrows McGee gets credit for inventing the secondary market for emotional trading.
posted by biffa at 1:20 AM on July 17, 2015 [37 favorites]
It is, in short, the feeling that you've been cheated.
Oh. God. YES. Cheated out of so much, including respect, because there is an inverse relationship in the respect accorded to (invisible, easy to take for granted) emotional labour and obvious labour that is involved in trade-exchange.
Ultimately it's better for all that everybody have the space and freedom to respect themselves and say "you know what? fuck this" when they've found themselves being taken for granted and their labor is in vain and is exhausting them.
For many women, saying "fuck this" is a really unviable option as it can quickly lead to unemployment and/or homelessness.
The answer is not for men/people to say "well stop doing it then!"; the answer is to say, "oops, sorry, here's how I'll pick up the slack and why".
Telling people to stop doing necessary emotional labour 'if they are so tired of it' is a shallow approach to a deep problem that yet again shows that the labour isn't valued. Emotional labour is a vital ingredient in the glue that holds relationships of all kinds together. And here's the rub: if we all stopped doing it, the "well, stop doing it!" crowd would not take responsibility for the result.
posted by Thella at 1:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [85 favorites]
Oh. God. YES. Cheated out of so much, including respect, because there is an inverse relationship in the respect accorded to (invisible, easy to take for granted) emotional labour and obvious labour that is involved in trade-exchange.
Ultimately it's better for all that everybody have the space and freedom to respect themselves and say "you know what? fuck this" when they've found themselves being taken for granted and their labor is in vain and is exhausting them.
For many women, saying "fuck this" is a really unviable option as it can quickly lead to unemployment and/or homelessness.
The answer is not for men/people to say "well stop doing it then!"; the answer is to say, "oops, sorry, here's how I'll pick up the slack and why".
Telling people to stop doing necessary emotional labour 'if they are so tired of it' is a shallow approach to a deep problem that yet again shows that the labour isn't valued. Emotional labour is a vital ingredient in the glue that holds relationships of all kinds together. And here's the rub: if we all stopped doing it, the "well, stop doing it!" crowd would not take responsibility for the result.
posted by Thella at 1:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [85 favorites]
The grandparent-birthday example cited above was what happens when a person (almost always a woman) stops doing the unacknowledged and Unrewarded emotional labor: someone vulnerable and without alternatives gets hurt, in this case a child. I refused to do the work for that grandparent relationship so it doesn't exist. Recently post-separation I said I would no longer be the point person for the kids and the in-laws cousin, that the ex would have to handle those play dates, party invites, phone calls etc. Result? No relationships any more. The kids miss out on relationships because adults can't be arsed to do emotional work and then wonder why their kids are lonely and upset.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:36 AM on July 17, 2015 [63 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:36 AM on July 17, 2015 [63 favorites]
Holy crap, guys, I just realized something. When I was in college, I had a summer job. I worked as support staff for an outdoor education company, which meant driving groups to trailheads and packing gear and fixing gear and keeping things running at the old ranch where all the kids arrived and left from. I did it for 3 years and the first year was probably the hardest job I’d ever had, before or since, but I could never really explain why to people.
And this thread has made me realize why: because my most immediate boss at that company, Sam, who was the one in charge of us support staff, was a man who got the job because his life had sort of fallen apart and he was a personal friend of the director. His previous job had been working almost completely by himself for 25 years on a ranch in Montana. He had absolutely no idea how to interact with high school kids or college kids or anybody at all really except for his old friend the director and his horses (he was really good with horses). The year before I’d started working there had been his first year at the job, and it was a complete disaster: one of the support staff (there were 6) quit half way through the summer because she just couldn’t deal with him anymore and there were a bunch of kids who said in their program evaluations at the end of the summer that he made them uncomfortable because he walked around scowling at everybody and was just really unfriendly and aggressive, which makes sense because he thought they were all entitled obnoxious immature rich kids who didn’t understand how privileged or dumb they really were. He also didn’t really understand the point of the whole company, because compared to ranching, it didn’t seem like real work to him.
So when I arrived the next summer with my 5 other compatriots, everyone in the administration knew there was a problem, but they couldn’t fire him, because he was friends with the director, so instead they just did nothing. After the first three days of working with him, I realized that the summer was going to be really miserable if someone didn’t help Sam integrate into the company better and figure out how to interact with all of us better. And since no one else seemed like they were going to do it, that’s what I spent my summer doing.
So I spent the entire summer thinking really carefully about my tone every time I talked to him, so that he wouldn’t react defensively or angrily when I made a suggestion or told him something he didn’t know (he knew a lot about fixing machines, but not a lot about outdoor camping gear, etc). I had a bunch of conversations with him about the high schoolers, how they might look super privileged to him because they were here on an expensive trip, but how a lot of them still had issues and family problems of their own. I talked to him about how a lot of the kids were actually scholarship students, because our company had close ties with an inner-city scholarship program. And I spent so much time and energy giving him a frame of reference for the people he was working with: why we did things the way we did, why the company had the safety rules that it did, why I thought the work the company did was important—just so he would start to gain some empathy and understanding for the people and the kids he was working with. He and I started to be friends about halfway through the summer, which meant that I could start telling him more directly when I thought he’d said or done something inappropriate, as long as it was just the two of us.
I worked so goddamn hard at all of that. And a lot of the time it felt like I was fighting an invisible battle with Sam, or trying to drag a reluctant horse through 4 feet of mud. But it worked: at the end of the summer, all of the administrative staff said to us like, “Oh, things went so much more smoothly this summer! You guys were amazing! I guess Sam just needed a bit of time to get into the swing of things—“ And the next summer, things went better from the start, and by the third year, all the field staff were all talking fondly about Sam as a somewhat eccentric but lovable person, and a lot of the kids thought he was great because he was the closest thing to a real-life cowboy that they’d ever seen. Sam and I were really good friends by that point, and that was obvious enough to other people that they occasionally said things to me like, “Sam really loves you!” and I always thought, “Yeah, because he and I walked through the fire together,” but I could never explain, even to myself, exactly what I did that first summer and why it was so exhausting and also why it was so invisible to everyone else.
And this article and the subsequent discussion have given me the answer: you guys, it was my summer of intensive emotional labor.
posted by colfax at 3:08 AM on July 17, 2015 [203 favorites]
And this thread has made me realize why: because my most immediate boss at that company, Sam, who was the one in charge of us support staff, was a man who got the job because his life had sort of fallen apart and he was a personal friend of the director. His previous job had been working almost completely by himself for 25 years on a ranch in Montana. He had absolutely no idea how to interact with high school kids or college kids or anybody at all really except for his old friend the director and his horses (he was really good with horses). The year before I’d started working there had been his first year at the job, and it was a complete disaster: one of the support staff (there were 6) quit half way through the summer because she just couldn’t deal with him anymore and there were a bunch of kids who said in their program evaluations at the end of the summer that he made them uncomfortable because he walked around scowling at everybody and was just really unfriendly and aggressive, which makes sense because he thought they were all entitled obnoxious immature rich kids who didn’t understand how privileged or dumb they really were. He also didn’t really understand the point of the whole company, because compared to ranching, it didn’t seem like real work to him.
So when I arrived the next summer with my 5 other compatriots, everyone in the administration knew there was a problem, but they couldn’t fire him, because he was friends with the director, so instead they just did nothing. After the first three days of working with him, I realized that the summer was going to be really miserable if someone didn’t help Sam integrate into the company better and figure out how to interact with all of us better. And since no one else seemed like they were going to do it, that’s what I spent my summer doing.
So I spent the entire summer thinking really carefully about my tone every time I talked to him, so that he wouldn’t react defensively or angrily when I made a suggestion or told him something he didn’t know (he knew a lot about fixing machines, but not a lot about outdoor camping gear, etc). I had a bunch of conversations with him about the high schoolers, how they might look super privileged to him because they were here on an expensive trip, but how a lot of them still had issues and family problems of their own. I talked to him about how a lot of the kids were actually scholarship students, because our company had close ties with an inner-city scholarship program. And I spent so much time and energy giving him a frame of reference for the people he was working with: why we did things the way we did, why the company had the safety rules that it did, why I thought the work the company did was important—just so he would start to gain some empathy and understanding for the people and the kids he was working with. He and I started to be friends about halfway through the summer, which meant that I could start telling him more directly when I thought he’d said or done something inappropriate, as long as it was just the two of us.
I worked so goddamn hard at all of that. And a lot of the time it felt like I was fighting an invisible battle with Sam, or trying to drag a reluctant horse through 4 feet of mud. But it worked: at the end of the summer, all of the administrative staff said to us like, “Oh, things went so much more smoothly this summer! You guys were amazing! I guess Sam just needed a bit of time to get into the swing of things—“ And the next summer, things went better from the start, and by the third year, all the field staff were all talking fondly about Sam as a somewhat eccentric but lovable person, and a lot of the kids thought he was great because he was the closest thing to a real-life cowboy that they’d ever seen. Sam and I were really good friends by that point, and that was obvious enough to other people that they occasionally said things to me like, “Sam really loves you!” and I always thought, “Yeah, because he and I walked through the fire together,” but I could never explain, even to myself, exactly what I did that first summer and why it was so exhausting and also why it was so invisible to everyone else.
And this article and the subsequent discussion have given me the answer: you guys, it was my summer of intensive emotional labor.
posted by colfax at 3:08 AM on July 17, 2015 [203 favorites]
One reason why use of the term "women-patriarchy" might raise hackles is that it looks like it's intended to serve the same rhetorical purpose as the phrase "black on black crime".
posted by XMLicious at 3:55 AM on July 17, 2015 [67 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 3:55 AM on July 17, 2015 [67 favorites]
This thread has given me another amazing reason to appreciate my fiancé. The neighbors' cat died a few weeks ago and when I came home from work he was making soup to take over to them. "Because when there's a death in the family, you're supposed to bring food." I was floored and it took me until this thread to realize that most men wouldn't even have that thought cross their minds, and most women WOULD (even me, and I'm horrible about this stuff). Not even feminist men. Not even my father, who is more considerate than the average Joe.
We're apart right now but the second I get home I'm gonna give him an extra hug for the soup.
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:49 AM on July 17, 2015 [65 favorites]
We're apart right now but the second I get home I'm gonna give him an extra hug for the soup.
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:49 AM on July 17, 2015 [65 favorites]
I'm terrible at it. Hence, my children miss out on parties and regular family get togethers because there's no-one else taking care of it . I thought it just happened (obviously my Mum took care of the early childhood stuff (when I went to parties)) but it doesn't and I never really have got the knack of the whole looking out for everyone thing, which also explains why my siblings and I are kinda distant even though we all get on when we do get together. Obviously no-one can be fucked to organise things. No-one wants to take on that work.
Does it count that my Mum left home and my brothers and sister and I stayed with Dad when I was 11, even though my Mum and Grandma were always a major part of my life? Maybe. But probably not. Dad still did stuff, more than I do. He was in community groups and things. I can't really remember him organising personal stuff, the whole socialising thing was pretty much left to us to deal with. Except for family stuff. He did that. WAAY more than I ever have, to my shame. No blame to be laid there.
This is when I remember what it was like to be with someone who was waiting for me to do this thing, and I was really fucked at it and he was all aghast. And in the end he wasn't up to it because he wanted someone he didn't have to coach and he sure as fuck wasn't going to do it himself.
I honestly thought, in restrospect now that I've got a name for it, that I would find somebody who would shoulder the burden of emotional work for me because I'm so bad at it, but alas, that was not to be so now it's just up to me and my poor/lovely/clever kids to work it out. We're all arsing our way through.
In the end, we all have to work it out. It would be great to not feel so unduly burdened by the expectations of others but the world is not set up for fairness. Being in charge of everyone's happiness is a massive burden. It makes sense to share it.
The thing is, how do we get everyone to feel this way? Fucking empathy, man. It's not to be sniffed at.
posted by h00py at 5:41 AM on July 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
Does it count that my Mum left home and my brothers and sister and I stayed with Dad when I was 11, even though my Mum and Grandma were always a major part of my life? Maybe. But probably not. Dad still did stuff, more than I do. He was in community groups and things. I can't really remember him organising personal stuff, the whole socialising thing was pretty much left to us to deal with. Except for family stuff. He did that. WAAY more than I ever have, to my shame. No blame to be laid there.
This is when I remember what it was like to be with someone who was waiting for me to do this thing, and I was really fucked at it and he was all aghast. And in the end he wasn't up to it because he wanted someone he didn't have to coach and he sure as fuck wasn't going to do it himself.
I honestly thought, in restrospect now that I've got a name for it, that I would find somebody who would shoulder the burden of emotional work for me because I'm so bad at it, but alas, that was not to be so now it's just up to me and my poor/lovely/clever kids to work it out. We're all arsing our way through.
In the end, we all have to work it out. It would be great to not feel so unduly burdened by the expectations of others but the world is not set up for fairness. Being in charge of everyone's happiness is a massive burden. It makes sense to share it.
The thing is, how do we get everyone to feel this way? Fucking empathy, man. It's not to be sniffed at.
posted by h00py at 5:41 AM on July 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
My brother once said, proudly, that he doesn't take any notice of anything unless it splats in his face, because that way he knows he is only dealing with the important stuff.
vs.
The expectation that women will be naturally, effortlessly skilled at 1) keeping track of what's important to family members, friends of the family, work colleagues; 2) having antennae out for others' invisible and subtle expectations/missives/tone/frequency of contact/mood/needs; 3) noticing entropy and taking note of potential problems; 4) acting as a fixer-facilitator-logistics coordinator; 5) making things comfortable/easy/non-threatening for others; while 6) doing this on an unpaid basis; 7) doing this on an unnoticed basis; 8) being mocked and/or gaslighted for mentioning the existence of all of this as work, and as exhausting; 9) being called nags and told to lower our standards, because we notice so much; and 10) feeling like we are failing at "being in charge of everyone's happiness."
The cheese of patriarchy has just gone splat, and it is fucking terrible.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:00 AM on July 17, 2015 [110 favorites]
vs.
The expectation that women will be naturally, effortlessly skilled at 1) keeping track of what's important to family members, friends of the family, work colleagues; 2) having antennae out for others' invisible and subtle expectations/missives/tone/frequency of contact/mood/needs; 3) noticing entropy and taking note of potential problems; 4) acting as a fixer-facilitator-logistics coordinator; 5) making things comfortable/easy/non-threatening for others; while 6) doing this on an unpaid basis; 7) doing this on an unnoticed basis; 8) being mocked and/or gaslighted for mentioning the existence of all of this as work, and as exhausting; 9) being called nags and told to lower our standards, because we notice so much; and 10) feeling like we are failing at "being in charge of everyone's happiness."
The cheese of patriarchy has just gone splat, and it is fucking terrible.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:00 AM on July 17, 2015 [110 favorites]
It's probably a big part of the basis for the whole "default parent" notion as well, right? (previous thread) It's mooooostly women doing that, and it's fairly equal parts physical drudgery and emotional labor.
I guess I'm thinking about it because my comment in the thread was specifically about the emotional labor aspects of being the default parent (reproduced here:)
I thought about this thread this morning as I went through my daughter's school uniform drawer to find the one skirt that would both look OK in school pictures (because I was the only one who remembered it was picture day) and had built in shorts (because it's one of the days she has gym, and she insists on wearing a skirt with built in shorts on gym day -- but not pants, never pants on gym day wtf I don't know either) and I knew it was in the drawer, because I planned the laundry last week and rotated the order in which she wore various pieces of uniform to ensure that this particular skirt would be clean on this particular day.
Just one of those incredibly minor things, but I probably thought about it for 3 or 4 minutes every day for a week.
posted by gaspode at 6:26 AM on July 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
I guess I'm thinking about it because my comment in the thread was specifically about the emotional labor aspects of being the default parent (reproduced here:)
I thought about this thread this morning as I went through my daughter's school uniform drawer to find the one skirt that would both look OK in school pictures (because I was the only one who remembered it was picture day) and had built in shorts (because it's one of the days she has gym, and she insists on wearing a skirt with built in shorts on gym day -- but not pants, never pants on gym day wtf I don't know either) and I knew it was in the drawer, because I planned the laundry last week and rotated the order in which she wore various pieces of uniform to ensure that this particular skirt would be clean on this particular day.
Just one of those incredibly minor things, but I probably thought about it for 3 or 4 minutes every day for a week.
posted by gaspode at 6:26 AM on July 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
And heh, I can vividly remember being pregnant with gaspode Jr (the only kid I have) and informing my husband that he was never under any circumstances to look at me with our newborn and ask what to do wrt soothing her. I had no innate knowledge because I was a woman! I am an only child who was and is ambivalent about babies. I never played with dolls or cooed over younger children. He was at an advantage even, because he's an elder sibling. So if he expected me to just *know* by virtue of my sex/gender what to do, he was in for a big shock.
posted by gaspode at 6:29 AM on July 17, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by gaspode at 6:29 AM on July 17, 2015 [33 favorites]
I bought up this thread to my husband last night, talking about how much I am learning from it. When I said that I used my relationship with my dad as my clearest example, he was like, "But I don't think that's emotional labour. He is your dad, you are supposed to call him and take the high road when he doesn't call you. I think that's being the bigger person." I think you can imagine how I responded.
posted by Kitteh at 6:32 AM on July 17, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 6:32 AM on July 17, 2015 [31 favorites]
Sure, if he does the same if his mom behaves the same way.
posted by RogueTech at 6:33 AM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by RogueTech at 6:33 AM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Exactly. If a man estranged from his father or not close to his dad would not get the same pushback as a woman. Men are stoic, reserved, whereas I am supposed to be full of fluffy bunny feelings of compassion and caring 24/7.
posted by Kitteh at 6:38 AM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 6:38 AM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
This ties in nicely with the topic about filling in the gaps in a programming language community. In multiple fields (including household/family management), people are becoming more aware how valuable is the skill of filling in the gaps and making sure everything's connected, and realizing the importance of the needs of unconnected people.
posted by michaelh at 6:42 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 6:42 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
My husband is definitely one of the good ones, but this thread also has me thinking about the emotional labor that was necessary to get our relationship to the point where it is now. When we had a major problem towards the beginning of our relationship, I carried us through it, and if I hadn't put in an INTENSE amount of emotional labor that was incredibly trying and scary, we would very likely no longer be together. He currently takes on a lot of the household stuff because he works from home, so he cooks dinner almost every night. This is wonderful. It also only happened because I spent years gently teaching him to be able to cook, to enjoy cooking, even, and this was no small task. In general I feel like it is primarily my responsibility to "manage" the emotional labor in our household: he is getting much much better at a lot of things (cooking, buying family xmas presents, etc.) and that is SO GREAT, but it is a process, and that process can be exhausting.
posted by dysh at 6:45 AM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by dysh at 6:45 AM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
dysh, that's why I loved this comment from Dorinda way the hell upthread. My husband does a lot of stuff that I never have to ask him to do, he is a great ally, but this is stuff that he never had to think about or even know existed.
posted by Kitteh at 6:50 AM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 6:50 AM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
The cheese of patriarchy has just gone splat, and it is fucking terrible.
It is a testament to how shit patriarchy really is that is can be rubbery and still go splat.
posted by phearlez at 6:56 AM on July 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
It is a testament to how shit patriarchy really is that is can be rubbery and still go splat.
posted by phearlez at 6:56 AM on July 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
Vaguely related: Calif. Law Makes Cheerleaders Employees (NPR piece from this morning, transcript isn't up yet, but the takeaway for me is that many/most football cheerleaders are paid per game, but then controlled to an absurd degree in the rest of their lives and expected to do a lot of other work for free, which results in them getting paid less than minimum wage). My summary of the response soundbyte from a Republican representative: "I'm not comfortable adding regulations on business, when there's a venue (class action lawsuits) for these issues to be resolved."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:12 AM on July 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 7:12 AM on July 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
I like to think I helped nudge my brother toward some understanding of this when I pointed out to him that being "laidback" and willing to go along with whatever anyone else planned, while preferable to being a dictatorial tyrant, was still offloading the planning work onto everyone else and refusing to do any of the work that needed to be done. I think I actually heard the light bulb click on over his head, and he's been much better about not saying, "Oh, whatever you want to do is fine," while still maintaining his okayness with being flexible about plans.
He had never pretended to be persecuted, but the whole "Yes, Dear" schtick goes right along with that, the trope that husbands are so put upon because they always have to do what their wives want them to do -- ignoring the reality that the wives have likely given a ton of thought into why what they want to do is going to benefit (or work for) multiple family members, friends, co-workers, whomever and not just themselves and also that the reason wives tend to have to ask husbands to do things is because the husbands don't bother to create that To Do list themselves. I have a male co-worker who just discovered the phrase "She Who Must Be Obeyed" and has been sharing his (hilarious! it's just hilarious!) observations about the truthiness of this gender dynamic with anyone who will listen, and it makes me furious every time I hear him laughing about it on the phone (not sure if he's talking to clients or friends).
posted by jaguar at 7:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [56 favorites]
He had never pretended to be persecuted, but the whole "Yes, Dear" schtick goes right along with that, the trope that husbands are so put upon because they always have to do what their wives want them to do -- ignoring the reality that the wives have likely given a ton of thought into why what they want to do is going to benefit (or work for) multiple family members, friends, co-workers, whomever and not just themselves and also that the reason wives tend to have to ask husbands to do things is because the husbands don't bother to create that To Do list themselves. I have a male co-worker who just discovered the phrase "She Who Must Be Obeyed" and has been sharing his (hilarious! it's just hilarious!) observations about the truthiness of this gender dynamic with anyone who will listen, and it makes me furious every time I hear him laughing about it on the phone (not sure if he's talking to clients or friends).
posted by jaguar at 7:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [56 favorites]
Which reminds me of the John Gottman observation that healthy mixed-sex relationships are those in which the male partner "accepts influence" from the female partner, since the reverse is almost universally already happening:
4. Accept influence from your partner.posted by jaguar at 7:17 AM on July 17, 2015 [93 favorites]
In studying heterosexual marriages, we found that a relationship succeeds to the extent that the husband can accept influence from his wife. For instance, a woman says, “Do you have to work Thursday night? My mother is coming that weekend, and I need your help getting ready.” Her husband then replies, “My plans are set, and I’m not changing them.” As you might guess, this guy is in a shaky marriage. A husband’s ability to be influenced by his wife (rather than vice-versa) is crucial – because research shows that women are already well practiced at accepting influence from men. A true partnership only occurs when a husband can do the same thing.
I wish there was a shibboleth for this kind of deliberate disdain for emotional labor.
I'm alright with people who don't understand that this work exists because of neurodiversity, or who are trying to deal with it imperfectly but with effort. But something that could be asked - like how if your date is an asshole to a waiter, that's a red flag.
Maybe asking when the last time they sent a birthday card? No, not your ex, not your sister, not the one you signed at work that somebody else organised. The last time you bought a paper card and put it in the post. Or ordered a birthday present for someone you weren't sleeping with.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:20 AM on July 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm alright with people who don't understand that this work exists because of neurodiversity, or who are trying to deal with it imperfectly but with effort. But something that could be asked - like how if your date is an asshole to a waiter, that's a red flag.
Maybe asking when the last time they sent a birthday card? No, not your ex, not your sister, not the one you signed at work that somebody else organised. The last time you bought a paper card and put it in the post. Or ordered a birthday present for someone you weren't sleeping with.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:20 AM on July 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
This thread has really been resonating for me in all sorts of ways - professionally, personally, family-wise.
I woke up this morning thinking specifically about how I spent so much of my last career as The Problem Solver, the Compromiser, Morale Girl, and the Bridge-builder, all facets of doing the emotional labor of getting things done and making things work. Even when the work wasn't invisible, it never seemed to count (unless things didn't work out). It was just expected. I was largely considered "one of the guys" and it was still true that I was the one who was expected to smooth things over, find a way to make 2 groups work together, cater to others who couldn't keep up, explain things "nicely", organize outings, take notes, follow up (when it was really not my role to do so), make things work that weren't really in my purview, and be eternally available to everyone. Is it any wonder that I burned out on that career/world? (Burning out on my personal world was not an option.)
posted by julen at 7:49 AM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I woke up this morning thinking specifically about how I spent so much of my last career as The Problem Solver, the Compromiser, Morale Girl, and the Bridge-builder, all facets of doing the emotional labor of getting things done and making things work. Even when the work wasn't invisible, it never seemed to count (unless things didn't work out). It was just expected. I was largely considered "one of the guys" and it was still true that I was the one who was expected to smooth things over, find a way to make 2 groups work together, cater to others who couldn't keep up, explain things "nicely", organize outings, take notes, follow up (when it was really not my role to do so), make things work that weren't really in my purview, and be eternally available to everyone. Is it any wonder that I burned out on that career/world? (Burning out on my personal world was not an option.)
posted by julen at 7:49 AM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I thought of this thread yesterday after getting the mail, because I got a thank you note from a friend/neighbor who lives a five minute walk from my house. She recently had breast cancer surgery. When I was going to see her for the first time since the procedure last week, I thought “oh, I should take her something— right, I have that relaxation aromatherapy lotion/soap gift set, that works.” I ran upstairs to grab it (I always have a stash of gifts on hand just in case), I gave it to her (unwrapped), she said thanks.
And in her thank you note (she had already thanked me in person, which I would consider more than sufficient, by the way), she said thank you not only for the gift, but for the thought behind the gift, the feeling it gave her that she is going through this scary time in community with people caring about her/caring for her/trying to signal their love for her.
To a lot of the people saying “ugh, cards, who cares” or “just skip it, no one I know cares about getting presents for [X] occasion,” this is why these things matter. The present itself is secondary. The thank you card itself is secondary. They matter as vehicles for messages of love. They matter as ways of saying “I value you, I am thinking of you, I treasure your place in my life and my community, and I want this tangible object to be a talisman of my care for you.”
The gift itself is not the thing. The card itself is not the thing. The relationship is the thing.
(I know that there are families/groups where the gift or the card become obligations and/or weapons, but the assumption that this aberrant dysfunction of certain social spheres makes the practices unnecessary in the rest of the world is flat-out absurd.)
A lot of the behaviors that people here have framed as “pointless” or “a waste of time” have almost magical powers, when they are used correctly. I got that card in return for a last-minute “feel better” gift, and the glow from it lasted all night, and on through today. I’m not glad she sent the card NOT because people who get gifts are supposed to send thank you cards, but because it allowed us both to feel loved.
Part of the invisibility of emotional labor is that its tools are so often damned as absurd or frivolous. Listen to the scorn so many men show for women who “gossip”, for example. How often is “gossip” a shorthand slur for “discussing their lives, their hopes, their dreams, offering one another advice, support, affirmation”?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:05 AM on July 17, 2015 [215 favorites]
And in her thank you note (she had already thanked me in person, which I would consider more than sufficient, by the way), she said thank you not only for the gift, but for the thought behind the gift, the feeling it gave her that she is going through this scary time in community with people caring about her/caring for her/trying to signal their love for her.
To a lot of the people saying “ugh, cards, who cares” or “just skip it, no one I know cares about getting presents for [X] occasion,” this is why these things matter. The present itself is secondary. The thank you card itself is secondary. They matter as vehicles for messages of love. They matter as ways of saying “I value you, I am thinking of you, I treasure your place in my life and my community, and I want this tangible object to be a talisman of my care for you.”
The gift itself is not the thing. The card itself is not the thing. The relationship is the thing.
(I know that there are families/groups where the gift or the card become obligations and/or weapons, but the assumption that this aberrant dysfunction of certain social spheres makes the practices unnecessary in the rest of the world is flat-out absurd.)
A lot of the behaviors that people here have framed as “pointless” or “a waste of time” have almost magical powers, when they are used correctly. I got that card in return for a last-minute “feel better” gift, and the glow from it lasted all night, and on through today. I’m not glad she sent the card NOT because people who get gifts are supposed to send thank you cards, but because it allowed us both to feel loved.
Part of the invisibility of emotional labor is that its tools are so often damned as absurd or frivolous. Listen to the scorn so many men show for women who “gossip”, for example. How often is “gossip” a shorthand slur for “discussing their lives, their hopes, their dreams, offering one another advice, support, affirmation”?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:05 AM on July 17, 2015 [215 favorites]
There's this other thing that I don't have a word or a phrase for (I want one!) and it's that thing that happens where a man will audit your response to their testing of your emotional-labour availability when you're upset or bothered to decide whether you're really upset or not. Like if you have feelings that aren't about them, or an emotion that would ordinarily provoke emotional labour when speaking to a woman, you get poked to engage in emotional labour on their behalf which will fall into a pattern of behaviour which they can then dismiss without engaging in emotional labour themselves. (Phew, tangled sentence.)
It's most obvious in compare and contrast to how women handle the same thing. For example one of my female relatives got very bad news recently and they were quite devastated. A male relative asked what was wrong, my female relative explained, and male relative proceeded to make a joke that was thoroughly tasteless and laugh at their own joke without an ounce of concern for their weeping female relative who was in genuine pain.
So it's like -- does female relative put her feelings on hold to do the work of trying to express to this man that their feelings matter, that they deserve better, that the man could instead take a different tack like asking how they are or just saying 'that sucks'? Does female relative get to do anything with that upset? Does female relative just not say anything and give up and swallow shit? Does female relative provoke an argument about the joke and contribute to giving their hurt and pain short shrift in favour of making it about the male relative? Does female relative try to explain the hurt to the male relative already knowing the male relative is more occupied with getting their joke across than the female relative's pain and is likely to simply repeat the joke or inflict a worse one? Does female relative get a chance to avoid having to go through the mental work of how-to-manage-a-man's-feelings-in-this-moment while they're crying over terrible news?
Does female relative get a chance to avoid having their feelings pushed into the Oversensitive basket or the Whiny Female basket or the Nagging basket or the Hysterical Bitch basket for the benefit of the male relative being able to dismiss her entirely because it fits a Narrative about Women?
Compare contrast, other female relative in the same room at the same time, launching into caretaking of the "hugs, tissues, tea, shoulder to cry on, backpats, soothing noises, weeping relative gently questioned whether they will be okay to continue or if they'd rather go home and will they be okay to drive and roping in other women in the room into general discussion of who volunteers to drive and juggling of schedules to make sure someone is available, soothing noises and reassurances continue meanwhile" sort.
It's a very bright-line difference and once I started noticing it, I sort of started seeing it everywhere. It's this pattern and I wish I had a phrase for it, or a word, so I could go like "that. THAT THING. YOU'RE DOING THE THING." when my male friends do it. Because holy hell does it ever get wearying.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:07 AM on July 17, 2015 [85 favorites]
It's most obvious in compare and contrast to how women handle the same thing. For example one of my female relatives got very bad news recently and they were quite devastated. A male relative asked what was wrong, my female relative explained, and male relative proceeded to make a joke that was thoroughly tasteless and laugh at their own joke without an ounce of concern for their weeping female relative who was in genuine pain.
So it's like -- does female relative put her feelings on hold to do the work of trying to express to this man that their feelings matter, that they deserve better, that the man could instead take a different tack like asking how they are or just saying 'that sucks'? Does female relative get to do anything with that upset? Does female relative just not say anything and give up and swallow shit? Does female relative provoke an argument about the joke and contribute to giving their hurt and pain short shrift in favour of making it about the male relative? Does female relative try to explain the hurt to the male relative already knowing the male relative is more occupied with getting their joke across than the female relative's pain and is likely to simply repeat the joke or inflict a worse one? Does female relative get a chance to avoid having to go through the mental work of how-to-manage-a-man's-feelings-in-this-moment while they're crying over terrible news?
Does female relative get a chance to avoid having their feelings pushed into the Oversensitive basket or the Whiny Female basket or the Nagging basket or the Hysterical Bitch basket for the benefit of the male relative being able to dismiss her entirely because it fits a Narrative about Women?
Compare contrast, other female relative in the same room at the same time, launching into caretaking of the "hugs, tissues, tea, shoulder to cry on, backpats, soothing noises, weeping relative gently questioned whether they will be okay to continue or if they'd rather go home and will they be okay to drive and roping in other women in the room into general discussion of who volunteers to drive and juggling of schedules to make sure someone is available, soothing noises and reassurances continue meanwhile" sort.
It's a very bright-line difference and once I started noticing it, I sort of started seeing it everywhere. It's this pattern and I wish I had a phrase for it, or a word, so I could go like "that. THAT THING. YOU'RE DOING THE THING." when my male friends do it. Because holy hell does it ever get wearying.
posted by E. Whitehall at 8:07 AM on July 17, 2015 [85 favorites]
Just want to add my own personal experience/thoughts on "opting out".
People have discussed how, when opting out, the consequences almost always fall on the woman and are largely unseen. It's not as though anyone will die or be grievously injured if the in-laws don't get birthday cards because the wife opted out and the husband doesn't do it. But the woman will be judged to varying degrees - people will think she's a bad wife/mother, etc, and this can manifest itself subtly in ways that ends up punishing the woman (and children, as already noted). I opted out of lots of gender roles that were expected of me years ago; if they were things that could only really hurt me by other people thinking less of me as a woman or thinking I'm less feminine or whatever. That kind of thing I just don't care about. (And, yes, I know that people thinking I'm less feminine potentially can negatively affect me in more tangible areas of my life, such as in my career, but let's leave that aside for now).
The other opt-out stuff that I could do but I don't want to do are things that would have the kind of negative affect in my life that would be palpable to me, and that I definitely don't want. Things such as friendships and relationships.
Friendships: This applies mainly to those with a man or where a man is my primary friend (i.e. the one in a couple that I've known and been friends with for decades). I am almost always the one organizing and coordinating nights out and events. I contact everyone and find a date when we're all available. Then I propose what we're going to do, e.g. a show, a restaurant or a bbq at someone's house (usually mine, if I'm organizing). Then, I have to either buy tickets/organize payments; find a restaurant everyone likes and make reservations (often having to go through this a few times if there are no openings on the night we've all decided on); or figure out what the BBQ is going to include and buy and prepare food for it (or assign certain people to bring certain things). This in addition to cleaning my house/yard, making sure I have enough paper plates/utensils, gas for the grill, enough chairs for everyone on the deck (or inside if it rains), etc.
If I decide to opt out of this, It wouldn't be accurate to say I would never see my friends again, but that wouldn't be far from the truth. Because most of the guys I know just don't do this. And I place a very high value of maintaining my friendships, even if it's for totally selfish reasons, i.e. I enjoy it and it is healthy for me. If I opt out of this my social life and relationships suffer, and that's huge.
Relationships: I know from past experience that my male partner can and will feel happy and content and well taken care of and I will get more and more depressed as time goes on because I feel my needs are not being met. And because I know this, if I sense that a man is not going to make any effort to even try to meet me halfway on emotional labor, then I'm not interested. Because no. FUCK no. It is preferable to be single than to feel empty and sad with an oblivious partner. But at the same time, the desire for a partnership is really strong and it is really frustrating and depressing to me that there are so many men out there that just don't see this, even if they otherwise are really well-intentioned. And I really believe that a lot of men don't want to be this way, they're just not aware (this has been confirmed by the men who have dropped into this thread and said as much). But there is no practical way to fit education on this issue into trying to find someone to date. So I opt out here because I know that totally trying to ignore my emotional needs in a relationship is a recipe for disaster, but what it means for me is: maybe I'll never find a fulfilling relationship? At this point, I'm not even really looking for a man who would meet me halfway (though that would be like a dream come true), I'm really just looking for someone who shows signs of trying or being open to trying and even THAT isn't easy to find! Because there is so much cultural baggage and perception around "cool girls", women being "nags" or women having impossible standards, which is SUCH COMPLETE BULLSHIT most of the time, but I can't educate the world, you know? This is also a HUGE consequence of opting out and I hate it and it sucks.
So I am super grateful for this thread and the article for a few reasons. One, that I now have words to describe the feelings I've had around this issue for years but have never been able to articulate. And secondly, because it is raising awareness, finally. I think there are a lot of good men out there who this will resonate with and who will be horrified and try to do better; because they're well-meaning but have just never known because they have literally never been taught. And I welcome that. I hope someone take the advice upthread and posts an AskMe with suggestions on how men can start to do better help to shoulder the burden of emotional labor. And I hope they get a wide variety of responses, from things like how to build empathy to practical rule-based things (which I personally think may be easier for lots of people who are just learning this) like the one mentioned by chainsoffreedom above: "when there's a death in the family, you're supposed to bring food" or "when your partner says they've had a hard day, you make them a dinner that they like, rub their back and give them extra hugs and kisses". Or whatever. And I hope that shit is circulated FAR AND WIDE. Because increased public awareness means there's a better chance for me and other women to have genuinely happy, equitable and fulfilling relationships with men and not have to deny themselves this very (imo) excellent part of life just because they chose to opt out of doing all the work.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:30 AM on July 17, 2015 [74 favorites]
People have discussed how, when opting out, the consequences almost always fall on the woman and are largely unseen. It's not as though anyone will die or be grievously injured if the in-laws don't get birthday cards because the wife opted out and the husband doesn't do it. But the woman will be judged to varying degrees - people will think she's a bad wife/mother, etc, and this can manifest itself subtly in ways that ends up punishing the woman (and children, as already noted). I opted out of lots of gender roles that were expected of me years ago; if they were things that could only really hurt me by other people thinking less of me as a woman or thinking I'm less feminine or whatever. That kind of thing I just don't care about. (And, yes, I know that people thinking I'm less feminine potentially can negatively affect me in more tangible areas of my life, such as in my career, but let's leave that aside for now).
The other opt-out stuff that I could do but I don't want to do are things that would have the kind of negative affect in my life that would be palpable to me, and that I definitely don't want. Things such as friendships and relationships.
Friendships: This applies mainly to those with a man or where a man is my primary friend (i.e. the one in a couple that I've known and been friends with for decades). I am almost always the one organizing and coordinating nights out and events. I contact everyone and find a date when we're all available. Then I propose what we're going to do, e.g. a show, a restaurant or a bbq at someone's house (usually mine, if I'm organizing). Then, I have to either buy tickets/organize payments; find a restaurant everyone likes and make reservations (often having to go through this a few times if there are no openings on the night we've all decided on); or figure out what the BBQ is going to include and buy and prepare food for it (or assign certain people to bring certain things). This in addition to cleaning my house/yard, making sure I have enough paper plates/utensils, gas for the grill, enough chairs for everyone on the deck (or inside if it rains), etc.
If I decide to opt out of this, It wouldn't be accurate to say I would never see my friends again, but that wouldn't be far from the truth. Because most of the guys I know just don't do this. And I place a very high value of maintaining my friendships, even if it's for totally selfish reasons, i.e. I enjoy it and it is healthy for me. If I opt out of this my social life and relationships suffer, and that's huge.
Relationships: I know from past experience that my male partner can and will feel happy and content and well taken care of and I will get more and more depressed as time goes on because I feel my needs are not being met. And because I know this, if I sense that a man is not going to make any effort to even try to meet me halfway on emotional labor, then I'm not interested. Because no. FUCK no. It is preferable to be single than to feel empty and sad with an oblivious partner. But at the same time, the desire for a partnership is really strong and it is really frustrating and depressing to me that there are so many men out there that just don't see this, even if they otherwise are really well-intentioned. And I really believe that a lot of men don't want to be this way, they're just not aware (this has been confirmed by the men who have dropped into this thread and said as much). But there is no practical way to fit education on this issue into trying to find someone to date. So I opt out here because I know that totally trying to ignore my emotional needs in a relationship is a recipe for disaster, but what it means for me is: maybe I'll never find a fulfilling relationship? At this point, I'm not even really looking for a man who would meet me halfway (though that would be like a dream come true), I'm really just looking for someone who shows signs of trying or being open to trying and even THAT isn't easy to find! Because there is so much cultural baggage and perception around "cool girls", women being "nags" or women having impossible standards, which is SUCH COMPLETE BULLSHIT most of the time, but I can't educate the world, you know? This is also a HUGE consequence of opting out and I hate it and it sucks.
So I am super grateful for this thread and the article for a few reasons. One, that I now have words to describe the feelings I've had around this issue for years but have never been able to articulate. And secondly, because it is raising awareness, finally. I think there are a lot of good men out there who this will resonate with and who will be horrified and try to do better; because they're well-meaning but have just never known because they have literally never been taught. And I welcome that. I hope someone take the advice upthread and posts an AskMe with suggestions on how men can start to do better help to shoulder the burden of emotional labor. And I hope they get a wide variety of responses, from things like how to build empathy to practical rule-based things (which I personally think may be easier for lots of people who are just learning this) like the one mentioned by chainsoffreedom above: "when there's a death in the family, you're supposed to bring food" or "when your partner says they've had a hard day, you make them a dinner that they like, rub their back and give them extra hugs and kisses". Or whatever. And I hope that shit is circulated FAR AND WIDE. Because increased public awareness means there's a better chance for me and other women to have genuinely happy, equitable and fulfilling relationships with men and not have to deny themselves this very (imo) excellent part of life just because they chose to opt out of doing all the work.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:30 AM on July 17, 2015 [74 favorites]
THAT THING is something I'm primed to respond to. I'm thinking it's $100 for me to give into it, and $50 for me to explain/demand importance. I'm kind of running with this idea, as an internal monologue to assert my position. Enhanced boundaries via game theory to lessen social conditioning.
I've mentioned the emotional labor my wife performs, because it feels like a lot, especially when centered around my needs. That Thing can contribute to an over-valuing of labor. (much like the celebration of a father who "babysits" his children).
When looking at the relationship as a whole, outside of social interactions/prompting, I do the work. Much of that labor is offload to me, and I begrudgingly accept requests that induce stress by rationalizing that it's part of my role as a housewife.
Without an umbrella term for these tasks, I couldn't understand why I found the "small things" so exhausting. Emotional labor helps me better define my work, and more clearly articulate a reason for objecting to certain requests.
I can almost guarantee that we'll both be throwing the words "emotional labor" around for weeks as we work to smooth out the more bumpy aspects of our relationship. We tend to be good at adapting, so hopefully our emotional labor distribution isn't so engrained as to take decades.
posted by bindr at 9:28 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've mentioned the emotional labor my wife performs, because it feels like a lot, especially when centered around my needs. That Thing can contribute to an over-valuing of labor. (much like the celebration of a father who "babysits" his children).
When looking at the relationship as a whole, outside of social interactions/prompting, I do the work. Much of that labor is offload to me, and I begrudgingly accept requests that induce stress by rationalizing that it's part of my role as a housewife.
Without an umbrella term for these tasks, I couldn't understand why I found the "small things" so exhausting. Emotional labor helps me better define my work, and more clearly articulate a reason for objecting to certain requests.
I can almost guarantee that we'll both be throwing the words "emotional labor" around for weeks as we work to smooth out the more bumpy aspects of our relationship. We tend to be good at adapting, so hopefully our emotional labor distribution isn't so engrained as to take decades.
posted by bindr at 9:28 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was thinking of this in terms of making an ask myself. I don't know if I have the emotional bandwidth for the responses, especially with the propensity for DTMFA answers. Which frequently aren't wrong; but this problem is so widespread, we'd have a epidemic of breakup and divorces should this advice be heeded.
And that does seem to be the crux of the issue. This problem is such an epidemic that even the "good guys", the feminists and the allies are guilty of shirking this duty. Of being unaware and sometimes willfully so. And yes, I think it's very possible to be willfully unaware, because not seeing means it's work you don't have to do. It's a little like "clutter blindness" that some men men who do not do housework have, along with those of us who are messy by nature. I personally have lost things right in front of me due to clutter blindness, and the only way I'm able to look past it is to literally get a new perspective (standing on a chair or step stool is my go to). I think they are similar blind spots. Both intentional and unintentional. I didn't recognize many of the frustrations between my husband and myself were due to the imbalance of emotional labor because even I was blind to it. Performing and still blind.
I would really like to know what we call that thing that E. Whitehall describes, but I have experienced it many times over, but don't have a name for it, besides selfish, and that's a component, but it's most specific than that.
I'm still in the midst of reading the paper from soccermom, but suspect I will have much to say when done.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:36 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
And that does seem to be the crux of the issue. This problem is such an epidemic that even the "good guys", the feminists and the allies are guilty of shirking this duty. Of being unaware and sometimes willfully so. And yes, I think it's very possible to be willfully unaware, because not seeing means it's work you don't have to do. It's a little like "clutter blindness" that some men men who do not do housework have, along with those of us who are messy by nature. I personally have lost things right in front of me due to clutter blindness, and the only way I'm able to look past it is to literally get a new perspective (standing on a chair or step stool is my go to). I think they are similar blind spots. Both intentional and unintentional. I didn't recognize many of the frustrations between my husband and myself were due to the imbalance of emotional labor because even I was blind to it. Performing and still blind.
I would really like to know what we call that thing that E. Whitehall describes, but I have experienced it many times over, but don't have a name for it, besides selfish, and that's a component, but it's most specific than that.
I'm still in the midst of reading the paper from soccermom, but suspect I will have much to say when done.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:36 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Wow, I wish I had seen this thread in it's early parts.
You've never gotten the silent treatment, or the angry phone call from an aunt asking you why you are breaking your mother's heart. Or had in-laws act cold because you didn't remember someone's birthday. But plenty of women have.
Every fucking time I opt out with my family, I get this. I get emotional blackmail and while I have learned to set boundaries, my family is incredibly rigid in the emotional labor division. The guilt is laid on so thick, it can be difficult to breathe.
As far as my husband and I go - he was certainly raised with a mom who did all of the emotional and the household labor (to the point that dad never washed a dish or made a sandwich in his married life). Additionally, I believe his dad was on the spectrum and had some social functioning issues to begin with. This made for an incredibly rocky start to our relationship where I could not for the life of me figure out how he could opt out of family dinners, gift giving, and any other family "obligation". Turns out, it was just never ever expected of him and it was never expected of his father.
Today, while there is by no means equal division of emotional labor, I feel like I get the easier role in the household labor deal. While I do almost all the cooking, (which I love) he does all of the cleaning. Kitchen, bathrooms, vacuuming, everything. He frankly likes to do it and I am happy to sit on the couch playing sudoku while he vacuums around me.
I get a lot of "You're so lucky." from friends and family, but honestly, it feels completely reasonable to me that he does this.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:38 AM on July 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
You've never gotten the silent treatment, or the angry phone call from an aunt asking you why you are breaking your mother's heart. Or had in-laws act cold because you didn't remember someone's birthday. But plenty of women have.
Every fucking time I opt out with my family, I get this. I get emotional blackmail and while I have learned to set boundaries, my family is incredibly rigid in the emotional labor division. The guilt is laid on so thick, it can be difficult to breathe.
As far as my husband and I go - he was certainly raised with a mom who did all of the emotional and the household labor (to the point that dad never washed a dish or made a sandwich in his married life). Additionally, I believe his dad was on the spectrum and had some social functioning issues to begin with. This made for an incredibly rocky start to our relationship where I could not for the life of me figure out how he could opt out of family dinners, gift giving, and any other family "obligation". Turns out, it was just never ever expected of him and it was never expected of his father.
Today, while there is by no means equal division of emotional labor, I feel like I get the easier role in the household labor deal. While I do almost all the cooking, (which I love) he does all of the cleaning. Kitchen, bathrooms, vacuuming, everything. He frankly likes to do it and I am happy to sit on the couch playing sudoku while he vacuums around me.
I get a lot of "You're so lucky." from friends and family, but honestly, it feels completely reasonable to me that he does this.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:38 AM on July 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
I just read this Vice piece an hour ago (How to Come to Terms with Your Attraction to 'Fat Girls') and wow, it struck me hard because of how it relates to this discussion - thinking about how so much of the emotional labor we do as women is so subtle it's often invisible even to us that we're performing it:
Absorb. Women are socialized to be emotional sponges soaking up all those uncomfortable feelings so other people don't have to. And men are socialized to expect they can do that - use women as an outlet for all the crap they're not trained or expected to process on their own, so they can feel better about themselves.
That's the guilt no one explains to you explictly: simply by existing as a woman you're expected to service others in these ways and when you don't, you are failing at being a good person. Even if you have to tear yourself up & put yourself down to do it - you best perform or be ostracized (or worse). It's your role.
posted by flex at 9:38 AM on July 17, 2015 [127 favorites]
...most of the men I sleep with tell me they like my body. They'll say something like "I love curvy women," or "I like thicker girls." I always took these comments as them trying to do me a favor—like, I'll call her curvy, not fat. But I don't see fat as a bad word, and I don't see the point in avoiding it.JFC, I've got to pullquote that again even though I already bolded it: "Men [...] maneuver some of the shame away from themselves. Whereas women are likelier to just absorb all of it [...the] shame because they are causing discomfort to their partner."
I mentioned this to a guy recently, after he called me "curvy" in bed. "Just call me fat," I said to him. "I don't mind—it's what I am."
His response to this took me [by] surprise. "Trust me, you're not fat. I'm not attracted to fat girls."
That's when it all hit me: Oh, you're not doing this for my sake. You're doing it for yours. This guy, and probably a lot of the others, didn't want to come to terms with his attraction to a fat woman...
Fat or thin, we're in the same boat when it comes to getting cheated on, getting that awful text that says, "You're really cool, but the thing is..." The difference is, when that happens, my thin friends don't automatically blame it on their weight. So why am I constantly made to feel like my weight is the problem in my love life?
Feeling shame about fatness is something I know all about—but as Tovar explained, the way I processed my shame is different from how the men I slept with processed their shame. "When women feel shame we are taught to turn that shame inwards, toward ourselves," said Tovar. "Men are often able to maneuver some of the shame away from themselves. Whereas women are likelier to just absorb all of it—not just the shame they are likely already feeling for being fat, but also shame because they are causing discomfort to their partner."
This is best exemplified by women feeling uncomfortable in fully exposing their bodies during sex, even when our romantic partners have already expressed attraction to us by their eagerness to rip our clothes off. Sort of like saying, "I'm ashamed that you might be ashamed of my body."
Absorb. Women are socialized to be emotional sponges soaking up all those uncomfortable feelings so other people don't have to. And men are socialized to expect they can do that - use women as an outlet for all the crap they're not trained or expected to process on their own, so they can feel better about themselves.
That's the guilt no one explains to you explictly: simply by existing as a woman you're expected to service others in these ways and when you don't, you are failing at being a good person. Even if you have to tear yourself up & put yourself down to do it - you best perform or be ostracized (or worse). It's your role.
posted by flex at 9:38 AM on July 17, 2015 [127 favorites]
I have a friend who's really social and loves to have get-togethers at his house. Usually cookouts. Which is great! Friends together, eating yummy food, and then playing board games. Awesome. I don't really go to these anymore, though, because I always end up completely exhausted afterward. And I realized this morning, catching up with this thread, why. I always just thought "oh, it's the introvert thing. You're feeling super drained after being around a crowd." Nope. I'm feeling super drained because I end up doing so much work. Honestly, a ton of it is actual physical work, but there's a big emotional component too.
You see, my friend has fallen into the ugly awful role of "incompetent bumbling smart guy". When he has a cookout, our other friends call me up to ask me if I'm going to be bringing the food - because he often forgets to buy anything to cook. They want to make sure I'll bring condiments, because the ones in his fridge are always expired. It's taken as a given that I'll be doing the cooking, of course, because there was a food poisoning issue the last time he did it. I always arrive early, so I can check and make sure he's actually got the grill going so the coals will be ready to cook on (he never does - even when I call ahead and ask him to do this). Last time I forgot to check and see if his dishes were clean - they weren't - and so dinner was delayed by a massive washing frenzy. The board games are nice... except that my friend will often get up randomly in the middle of a game and go play the piano, because it's not his turn, so hey, he doesn't need to just sit around. So we have to kind of play around him, or without him, or find games that work with an absent player. He never has ice, so I usually remind another friend to bring some for the drinks. He'll set the time for these things as a nebulous "whenever!" but if you show up too early (like just before noon for a lunch thing) he'll still be in the bath, or in bed, so I end up telling people when specifically to arrive and coordinating that. I do a lot of checking in with everyone who's there - make sure there's bugspray, tell my friend to get out his lawn games, bring board games I think folks will enjoy and haven't played in a while, try to keep the tone light and fluffy if people start griping about work too much, blah blah blah.
This isn't to say my friend does no work for these things - he'll help with the cooking, and he'll clean the dishes (afterwards, once he sees and notices that they're dirty). But he puts no effort at all into making sure his guests have an actual good time. They do! But it's because I make sure they do. And afterwards, he's always so thrilled - "this was a wonderful thing! Let's do this again soon! I had such fun!" and I just want to collapse in a heap. Our other friends are always appreciative, and I think it's apparent just how much work this dude 'hosting a party' really is for me (and the times I haven't gone have been laughable disasters because surprise! Other folks - and most of the friends in this group are dudes - aren't willing to just step up and do this stuff. Good for them, really). Once a year is my new limit, because I do like to see those friends in that context, and it is a good time for them. But damn, it would be nice if I wasn't playing hostess in someone else's house.
I wonder, though, how my friend would take it if I said, "ok, so I've itemized my services for party planning, coordination, food preparation, food acquisition, entertainment, hostessing, and wrangling you so that your guests actually see you instead of just being in your space while you're off doing other stuff. Here's the bill." Probably not well.
posted by lriG rorriM at 9:39 AM on July 17, 2015 [55 favorites]
You see, my friend has fallen into the ugly awful role of "incompetent bumbling smart guy". When he has a cookout, our other friends call me up to ask me if I'm going to be bringing the food - because he often forgets to buy anything to cook. They want to make sure I'll bring condiments, because the ones in his fridge are always expired. It's taken as a given that I'll be doing the cooking, of course, because there was a food poisoning issue the last time he did it. I always arrive early, so I can check and make sure he's actually got the grill going so the coals will be ready to cook on (he never does - even when I call ahead and ask him to do this). Last time I forgot to check and see if his dishes were clean - they weren't - and so dinner was delayed by a massive washing frenzy. The board games are nice... except that my friend will often get up randomly in the middle of a game and go play the piano, because it's not his turn, so hey, he doesn't need to just sit around. So we have to kind of play around him, or without him, or find games that work with an absent player. He never has ice, so I usually remind another friend to bring some for the drinks. He'll set the time for these things as a nebulous "whenever!" but if you show up too early (like just before noon for a lunch thing) he'll still be in the bath, or in bed, so I end up telling people when specifically to arrive and coordinating that. I do a lot of checking in with everyone who's there - make sure there's bugspray, tell my friend to get out his lawn games, bring board games I think folks will enjoy and haven't played in a while, try to keep the tone light and fluffy if people start griping about work too much, blah blah blah.
This isn't to say my friend does no work for these things - he'll help with the cooking, and he'll clean the dishes (afterwards, once he sees and notices that they're dirty). But he puts no effort at all into making sure his guests have an actual good time. They do! But it's because I make sure they do. And afterwards, he's always so thrilled - "this was a wonderful thing! Let's do this again soon! I had such fun!" and I just want to collapse in a heap. Our other friends are always appreciative, and I think it's apparent just how much work this dude 'hosting a party' really is for me (and the times I haven't gone have been laughable disasters because surprise! Other folks - and most of the friends in this group are dudes - aren't willing to just step up and do this stuff. Good for them, really). Once a year is my new limit, because I do like to see those friends in that context, and it is a good time for them. But damn, it would be nice if I wasn't playing hostess in someone else's house.
I wonder, though, how my friend would take it if I said, "ok, so I've itemized my services for party planning, coordination, food preparation, food acquisition, entertainment, hostessing, and wrangling you so that your guests actually see you instead of just being in your space while you're off doing other stuff. Here's the bill." Probably not well.
posted by lriG rorriM at 9:39 AM on July 17, 2015 [55 favorites]
To a lot of the people saying “ugh, cards, who cares” or “just skip it, no one I know cares about getting presents for [X] occasion,” this is why these things matter. The present itself is secondary. The thank you card itself is secondary. They matter as vehicles for messages of love. They matter as ways of saying “I value you, I am thinking of you, I treasure your place in my life and my community, and I want this tangible object to be a talisman of my care for you.”
A dear friend of mine once called my attention to something, when I was at his house and was having a bad day. He pointed out that he had a card I'd sent him for Hannukkah three years prior still on display. I'd actually chalked that up to him just putting it up temporarily that year and then just being scattered and not taking it down, but he said that he kept it on display because
1. it was a card from someone he cared about, and
2. it was a Hannukkah card he'd received from a non-Jew.
"What's so special about that?" I asked. "You're Jewish, of course I'd send you a Hannukkah card, right?"
"Do you know how many of my goyische friends send me Christmas cards every year?" he retorted.
The card itself was no more than two bucks and took only a couple seconds' thought. The message he got from it, though, was "I acknowledge the person you are and I am grateful for the person you are."
When it comes to social gestures, the stuff we're talking about may just seem like a drop in the ocean - but what is the ocean if not millions and millions of tiny drops?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:46 AM on July 17, 2015 [77 favorites]
A dear friend of mine once called my attention to something, when I was at his house and was having a bad day. He pointed out that he had a card I'd sent him for Hannukkah three years prior still on display. I'd actually chalked that up to him just putting it up temporarily that year and then just being scattered and not taking it down, but he said that he kept it on display because
1. it was a card from someone he cared about, and
2. it was a Hannukkah card he'd received from a non-Jew.
"What's so special about that?" I asked. "You're Jewish, of course I'd send you a Hannukkah card, right?"
"Do you know how many of my goyische friends send me Christmas cards every year?" he retorted.
The card itself was no more than two bucks and took only a couple seconds' thought. The message he got from it, though, was "I acknowledge the person you are and I am grateful for the person you are."
When it comes to social gestures, the stuff we're talking about may just seem like a drop in the ocean - but what is the ocean if not millions and millions of tiny drops?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:46 AM on July 17, 2015 [77 favorites]
A lot of the emotional labour also translates well into the Five Love Languages (which aren't just for romantic relationships but also work/social/family too and have the books to prove it).
Everyone wants to feel loved, to feel validated - we all think we are the heroes of our own stories, right? But someone who feels entitlement to other's emotional labour (maybe they like to feel validated by someone listening/agreeing with them and so drones away without actually, you know, having a conversation that involves the other person or likes GETTING the perfect gift but can't figure out why their partner wasn't thrilled with just a bunch of flowers from the chemist for their milestone anniversary) is exhausting to be around. Unfortunately, as noted, their entitlement comes from a very real power differential in the relationship that often means even *communicating* about balancing other people's needs isn't a conversation that can realistically happen.
I LOVE that article flex. Shame is SUCH a huge motivator for bad behaviour.
posted by saucysault at 9:48 AM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Everyone wants to feel loved, to feel validated - we all think we are the heroes of our own stories, right? But someone who feels entitlement to other's emotional labour (maybe they like to feel validated by someone listening/agreeing with them and so drones away without actually, you know, having a conversation that involves the other person or likes GETTING the perfect gift but can't figure out why their partner wasn't thrilled with just a bunch of flowers from the chemist for their milestone anniversary) is exhausting to be around. Unfortunately, as noted, their entitlement comes from a very real power differential in the relationship that often means even *communicating* about balancing other people's needs isn't a conversation that can realistically happen.
I LOVE that article flex. Shame is SUCH a huge motivator for bad behaviour.
posted by saucysault at 9:48 AM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Here's an example of a thing.
I was having a conversation with my husband and some friends about how I was trying to opt out of more things because of a chronic health condition. I gave as an example the goody bags at a recent birthday party we'd attended. They were cute - the kids loved them - it was super nice of her, the mom, to do that (of course it was the mom) but I'm just not going to do that. My husband, to my surprise, protested. But getting a goody bag is the best part of going to a birthday party! I explained that if giving goody bags at our child's birthday party was so important to him, he was free to buy them, put them together, and give them out.
We will not be giving out goody bags.
posted by bq at 9:49 AM on July 17, 2015 [94 favorites]
I was having a conversation with my husband and some friends about how I was trying to opt out of more things because of a chronic health condition. I gave as an example the goody bags at a recent birthday party we'd attended. They were cute - the kids loved them - it was super nice of her, the mom, to do that (of course it was the mom) but I'm just not going to do that. My husband, to my surprise, protested. But getting a goody bag is the best part of going to a birthday party! I explained that if giving goody bags at our child's birthday party was so important to him, he was free to buy them, put them together, and give them out.
We will not be giving out goody bags.
posted by bq at 9:49 AM on July 17, 2015 [94 favorites]
flex:Absorb. Women are socialized to be emotional sponges soaking up all those uncomfortable feelings so other people don't have to. And men are socialized to expect they can do that - use women as an outlet for all the crap they're not trained or expected to process on their own, so they can feel better about themselves.
I'd take this one step further--after you've absorb his shit long enough and maybe are starting to voice your desire to not absorb it, he might see that shit, feel bad about himself and decide that because you are the reservoir of such shit that you are also the source. And to feel better about himself he has to get rid of you. Rather than, y'know, do the tough emotional work and face his shit.
Fun stuff!
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:53 AM on July 17, 2015 [64 favorites]
I'd take this one step further--after you've absorb his shit long enough and maybe are starting to voice your desire to not absorb it, he might see that shit, feel bad about himself and decide that because you are the reservoir of such shit that you are also the source. And to feel better about himself he has to get rid of you. Rather than, y'know, do the tough emotional work and face his shit.
Fun stuff!
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:53 AM on July 17, 2015 [64 favorites]
Oh, wow, I think I just figured out the weird statistical anomaly in video game community management - it's largely women, yes, but of them men, the *vast* majority of the ones I've met are gay. It was something we talked about, but could never figure out a reason for.
Community management is almost pure emotional labor - that's the job. And gay men have to figure out how to do it in their relationships, or it won't get done - not all of them, obviously, but they don't get the luxury of assuming someone else will do it for them. So they have some of the same background as the women, coming in, and can do the mental modeling and noticing of emotional states and all the rest of the stuff that separates a community manager from a minimum wage drone applying a fixed moderation rubric.
Huh. I'll have to think about that a while longer.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:55 AM on July 17, 2015 [44 favorites]
Community management is almost pure emotional labor - that's the job. And gay men have to figure out how to do it in their relationships, or it won't get done - not all of them, obviously, but they don't get the luxury of assuming someone else will do it for them. So they have some of the same background as the women, coming in, and can do the mental modeling and noticing of emotional states and all the rest of the stuff that separates a community manager from a minimum wage drone applying a fixed moderation rubric.
Huh. I'll have to think about that a while longer.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:55 AM on July 17, 2015 [44 favorites]
This thread has been so enlightening. I'm actually seeing more of myself in the "male" group here, contrary to my actual gender, and hearing people talk about why all this emotional labour is important, I'm feeling a little guilty for not making more of an effort to improve. Somehow I've escaped the pressure to learn these skills so far, very luckily because they absolutely aren't natural for me - very analytical/practical, ADHD-PI, introverted, independent, etc, plus I was pretty isolated as a child and wasn't taught any of it. My family members are all very emotionally distant from each other, and friends and coworkers have learned not to expect that stuff from me, I guess, and like me anyway. My closest friends are male, and we emotionally vent to each other roughly equally frequently (i.e. rarely). I've never mailed a birthday card in my life, and buy birthday gifts for (and receive from) nobody except boyfriends - I'm doing well if I remember to wish my siblings happy birthday on facebook. So because I don't get pressure to do emotional labour, and because it's extremely difficult for me (to both realize it should be done, and to actually do it), I tend to avoid it entirely. While I haven't really noticed any fallout from not doing it, like many men, I have wished my friendships were closer, without really understanding how to change things. One notable exception is that in actual relationships, I still do probably the majority of the emotional labour (though still a lot less than most women, apparently). It's just with less-close people that I don't really think of putting in the effort (or care to, honestly, particularly since I'm indifferent to receiving it myself).
So I'm going to think about ways I can improve my performance of emotional labour, without going so far that I fall into the pattern described here (or exhaust myself, which will probably happen much earlier!). I've been thinking about writing an AskMe asking for tips to improve these skills - something like a "maintaining human connections for dummies" guide.
Anyway, I can see from the experiences described here that it will be much more difficult to avoid it if I marry/have kids, so I'm very grateful to be reading this thread now, and learning which relationship dynamics should be nipped in the bud.
posted by randomnity at 9:56 AM on July 17, 2015 [34 favorites]
So I'm going to think about ways I can improve my performance of emotional labour, without going so far that I fall into the pattern described here (or exhaust myself, which will probably happen much earlier!). I've been thinking about writing an AskMe asking for tips to improve these skills - something like a "maintaining human connections for dummies" guide.
Anyway, I can see from the experiences described here that it will be much more difficult to avoid it if I marry/have kids, so I'm very grateful to be reading this thread now, and learning which relationship dynamics should be nipped in the bud.
posted by randomnity at 9:56 AM on July 17, 2015 [34 favorites]
Reasonably early on in my relationship, a troubling dynamic was emerging. My then-boyfriend (now-husband) wanted input on nearly every decision, but only in the form of either accepting or rejecting the plans that I'd already come up with; he rarely offered countersuggestions. So, for example, when I was looking at curtains for the living room to replace the (horrible, torn, polyester, smoke-impregnated) ones that been in the house when we'd bought it, I'd say "How about these?" "Nah, I don't like that color." "OK, how about these?" "Ugh, I hate stripes." "OK, what about this?" "mmmm maybe too shiny." "OK, well what do you want?" "I don't know, just pick something."
I instituted a rule: he gets three free rejections, but then after that, he has to come up with a minimum of three suggestions of his own, or else I pick whatever I want without consulting him. And while my first three suggestions are usually made with his tastes and desires in mind, my fourth will not necessarily be. The instant he realized I was serious (after he saw the riotously colorful rainforest shower curtain in our bathroom) he got on board. But seriously, if you want me to have all the responsibility, then I'm taking all the power, too. I'm done with this "Oh, I don't care, pick whatever you want (but not really, what I mean is pick something that you have psychically divined that I want and then I can have all my needs met without having to make any choices or do any work!)" business.
This works best because we have radically different tastes. In his perfect world, our house would have pale birch floors and white walls and each room would contain a single bentwood Scandinavian chair. In my perfect world, our house would look like the prop closet for a particularly luxe production of Carmen threw up. So there's some real incentive to cooperate.
posted by KathrynT at 9:57 AM on July 17, 2015 [214 favorites]
I instituted a rule: he gets three free rejections, but then after that, he has to come up with a minimum of three suggestions of his own, or else I pick whatever I want without consulting him. And while my first three suggestions are usually made with his tastes and desires in mind, my fourth will not necessarily be. The instant he realized I was serious (after he saw the riotously colorful rainforest shower curtain in our bathroom) he got on board. But seriously, if you want me to have all the responsibility, then I'm taking all the power, too. I'm done with this "Oh, I don't care, pick whatever you want (but not really, what I mean is pick something that you have psychically divined that I want and then I can have all my needs met without having to make any choices or do any work!)" business.
This works best because we have radically different tastes. In his perfect world, our house would have pale birch floors and white walls and each room would contain a single bentwood Scandinavian chair. In my perfect world, our house would look like the prop closet for a particularly luxe production of Carmen threw up. So there's some real incentive to cooperate.
posted by KathrynT at 9:57 AM on July 17, 2015 [214 favorites]
Women are socialized to be emotional sponges soaking up all those uncomfortable feelings so other people don't have to.
Ohhh, that reminds me of another common complaint about women that is secretly about this subject-- "Women are so indecisive! Why can't they just say where they want to eat!"
My indecision is based on the certainty that my choice will upset someone, that we will arrive to that place only to experience one of these incredibly common mood-poisoning incidents that dudes like to do:
-making fun of the menu (and if you say "we can just go somewhere else," responding with "it's FINE! No, it's completely fine. I'm sure I can find SOMETHING.")
-saying "why would anyone want to eat here"
-saying "why would anyone want to eat [dish]" that I have just ordered
-making weird "she's still deciiiiding, WOMEN" jokes to the server
-saying "get whatever you want" only to passive-aggressively pepper you with tiny verbal barbs when you get whatever you want
-saying "oh man, if we were at [other restaurant] I could have [dish at other restaurant]"
-complaining about the beer selection
-complaining about the appetizer list lacking mozzarella sticks
-complaining about size/shape/bun-type of burgers
-complaining about one variety of sandwich with an ingredient they consider "weird"
-making comments about the female server's figure
-telling everyone they know about "the time [female person] made me go to [restaurant]" for the next fifteen years (I knew a guy who made jokes CONSTANTLY about the time his wife "dragged" him to this weird restaurant where the only thing they served was bread. That restaurant? Panera.)
Ultimately, in my experience, any woman's refusal to choose a restaurant is based on the often-correct suspicion that whatever choice you make will be wrong anyway, so let's just go where he wants to go, it makes things so much easier.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [110 favorites]
Ohhh, that reminds me of another common complaint about women that is secretly about this subject-- "Women are so indecisive! Why can't they just say where they want to eat!"
My indecision is based on the certainty that my choice will upset someone, that we will arrive to that place only to experience one of these incredibly common mood-poisoning incidents that dudes like to do:
-making fun of the menu (and if you say "we can just go somewhere else," responding with "it's FINE! No, it's completely fine. I'm sure I can find SOMETHING.")
-saying "why would anyone want to eat here"
-saying "why would anyone want to eat [dish]" that I have just ordered
-making weird "she's still deciiiiding, WOMEN" jokes to the server
-saying "get whatever you want" only to passive-aggressively pepper you with tiny verbal barbs when you get whatever you want
-saying "oh man, if we were at [other restaurant] I could have [dish at other restaurant]"
-complaining about the beer selection
-complaining about the appetizer list lacking mozzarella sticks
-complaining about size/shape/bun-type of burgers
-complaining about one variety of sandwich with an ingredient they consider "weird"
-making comments about the female server's figure
-telling everyone they know about "the time [female person] made me go to [restaurant]" for the next fifteen years (I knew a guy who made jokes CONSTANTLY about the time his wife "dragged" him to this weird restaurant where the only thing they served was bread. That restaurant? Panera.)
Ultimately, in my experience, any woman's refusal to choose a restaurant is based on the often-correct suspicion that whatever choice you make will be wrong anyway, so let's just go where he wants to go, it makes things so much easier.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [110 favorites]
randomnity: If you write that, I would read the hell out of it. I see so much of myself in your comment it's unreal. What emotional labor I've learned to do has come from (as mentioned) abuse and boyfriendial expectations; I haven't the foggiest clue how to go about maintaining friendships in a way that doesn't feel artificial as fuck.
posted by XtinaS at 10:02 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 10:02 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
Ha, KathrynT, I think we just told similar stories in two different settings.
-You choose! Completely up to you.
-I choose this.
-Ughhhhh, really??? :( :( :(
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:02 AM on July 17, 2015 [35 favorites]
-You choose! Completely up to you.
-I choose this.
-Ughhhhh, really??? :( :( :(
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:02 AM on July 17, 2015 [35 favorites]
I am a super indecisive person, and I feel like a fiendish thingy just poked right at the heart of the reason why. When you're making decisions where you're prioritizing other people's preferences - often unstated or even unconscious preferences - it's damned hard to choose anything.
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:03 AM on July 17, 2015 [76 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:03 AM on July 17, 2015 [76 favorites]
When you're making decisions where you're prioritizing other people's preferences - often unstated or even unconscious preferences - it's damned hard to choose anything.
Yes forever. I still have times when I say out loud, "If this were a perfect world and my decision only affected me, then [thing]." It's occasionally the only way I have of getting around my habit of thinking about everyone else's needs/wants/wishes before I even get to mine.
posted by XtinaS at 10:07 AM on July 17, 2015 [21 favorites]
Yes forever. I still have times when I say out loud, "If this were a perfect world and my decision only affected me, then [thing]." It's occasionally the only way I have of getting around my habit of thinking about everyone else's needs/wants/wishes before I even get to mine.
posted by XtinaS at 10:07 AM on July 17, 2015 [21 favorites]
This thread has been eye-opening. I realized that emotional labor was a thing, and it was why so many of my previous relationships didn't work out. But until I read all of your stories and comments, I didn't really grasp the level of emotional work that was or wasn't getting done in past relationships.
My first long term relationship ended because he said I wouldn't let him be an adult. I did all the planning, bill paying, and daily life maintenance. I felt exhausted all the time because everything about our life was such work. But, he planned our trips, he made dates with friends, he organized the social gatherings and while he might not remember to pack underwear for the trip, he made sure everyone had fun. I actually fell out with that group of friends not long after the breakup and for years I thought it was because they liked him better. But now I see it was because he remembered their shit where I just couldn't muster up the energy.
Second long term ended because I realized that years of being told, "We'll work on what is making you frustrated in the relationship just as soon as I get my emotional crap worked out." wasn't a valid life plan. My ex was astounded when I finally got mad and demanded he do some of the emotional work like giving a damn about my feelings. Leaving him felt like a gravity lightened and it took me a long time to ever feel that burden again.
Lately, my husband and I have been stressed. And thanks to this thread, I've realized that it's because we are both doing emotional work that we don't want to do. Instead of talking about or realizing that it is work to plan things or deal with those social details, we've just gotten annoyed. Neither of us is doing all of the emotional work, but neither of us is seeing the value in the work the other is doing. Thank you metafilter for giving me a framework to make my relationship better. Because honestly, I need to learn to value the work people do for me the way I wish they valued my efforts. This thread has made that crystal clear.
posted by teleri025 at 10:08 AM on July 17, 2015 [31 favorites]
My first long term relationship ended because he said I wouldn't let him be an adult. I did all the planning, bill paying, and daily life maintenance. I felt exhausted all the time because everything about our life was such work. But, he planned our trips, he made dates with friends, he organized the social gatherings and while he might not remember to pack underwear for the trip, he made sure everyone had fun. I actually fell out with that group of friends not long after the breakup and for years I thought it was because they liked him better. But now I see it was because he remembered their shit where I just couldn't muster up the energy.
Second long term ended because I realized that years of being told, "We'll work on what is making you frustrated in the relationship just as soon as I get my emotional crap worked out." wasn't a valid life plan. My ex was astounded when I finally got mad and demanded he do some of the emotional work like giving a damn about my feelings. Leaving him felt like a gravity lightened and it took me a long time to ever feel that burden again.
Lately, my husband and I have been stressed. And thanks to this thread, I've realized that it's because we are both doing emotional work that we don't want to do. Instead of talking about or realizing that it is work to plan things or deal with those social details, we've just gotten annoyed. Neither of us is doing all of the emotional work, but neither of us is seeing the value in the work the other is doing. Thank you metafilter for giving me a framework to make my relationship better. Because honestly, I need to learn to value the work people do for me the way I wish they valued my efforts. This thread has made that crystal clear.
posted by teleri025 at 10:08 AM on July 17, 2015 [31 favorites]
Other restaurant stuff that's happened:
-Complaining about how a dish is too expensive and they could just make a better version of it at home.
-Not even peeking at the menu, but having their SO try to decide for them (or worse, reading choices to them so they can decide)
-Complaining throughout the meal about the service being received.
-Complaining about tipping, and how tipping is a ripoff/broken/unfair.
posted by FJT at 10:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
-Complaining about how a dish is too expensive and they could just make a better version of it at home.
-Not even peeking at the menu, but having their SO try to decide for them (or worse, reading choices to them so they can decide)
-Complaining throughout the meal about the service being received.
-Complaining about tipping, and how tipping is a ripoff/broken/unfair.
posted by FJT at 10:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
I instituted a rule: he gets three free rejections, but then after that, he has to come up with a minimum of three suggestions of his own, or else I pick whatever I want without consulting him.
omg thank you KathrynT, I am so stealing this rule and trying it out with my boyfriend. We also have radically different tastes (or maybe he just has an irresistible urge to shoot down every suggestion). We've tried doing the 5-3-1 suggested on here a lot, but often get stuck because he'll hate all 5 of my suggestions equally, won't come up with any of his own, and will tell me to just pick something (but of course still complain afterwards). Possibly the most frustrating part of our entire relationship...
posted by randomnity at 10:11 AM on July 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
omg thank you KathrynT, I am so stealing this rule and trying it out with my boyfriend. We also have radically different tastes (or maybe he just has an irresistible urge to shoot down every suggestion). We've tried doing the 5-3-1 suggested on here a lot, but often get stuck because he'll hate all 5 of my suggestions equally, won't come up with any of his own, and will tell me to just pick something (but of course still complain afterwards). Possibly the most frustrating part of our entire relationship...
posted by randomnity at 10:11 AM on July 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yes forever. I still have times when I say out loud, "If this were a perfect world and my decision only affected me, then [thing]." It's occasionally the only way I have of getting around my habit of thinking about everyone else's needs/wants/wishes before I even get to mine.
XtinaS, I've been doing the same thing! I phrase it as, "In my ideal world, we'd [plans]." It's something I've started using with therapy clients, too ("In an ideal world, what would you want?" or sometimes, "What would you say if you didn't have to worry about hurting anyone's feelings?"), who are being extremely deferential to others or reluctant to identify their own needs. I've noticed a lot of clients get a brief look of confused panic at first, but then it's like I can almost see the weight of the "what if what if what if" anxiety evaporate from their shoulders.
posted by jaguar at 10:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [41 favorites]
XtinaS, I've been doing the same thing! I phrase it as, "In my ideal world, we'd [plans]." It's something I've started using with therapy clients, too ("In an ideal world, what would you want?" or sometimes, "What would you say if you didn't have to worry about hurting anyone's feelings?"), who are being extremely deferential to others or reluctant to identify their own needs. I've noticed a lot of clients get a brief look of confused panic at first, but then it's like I can almost see the weight of the "what if what if what if" anxiety evaporate from their shoulders.
posted by jaguar at 10:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [41 favorites]
I've been thinking some about cards and gifts and other gestures and how much work they are. Yes, they represent effort, and when the burden for remembering and thinking about those things is solely shifted onto one person it can be really heavy. But the key thing about thoughtful gestures is the thoughtful bit. The reason why a Hannukkah card for a Jewish friend is a big enough deal that it's still on display is because it was thoughtful, dammit. Not just a throwaway token effort so that the score is even and some tit-for-tat accounting can be said to be complete. I think that's how a lot of dudes see the outlay of energy involved around holidays and gifts and cards, and why the capitalist model of "let's assign a monetary value to these things" may actually, in some cases, backfire. The effort they're inclined to put in actually is literally worthless ("I'll spend five minutes in a grocery store aisle and pick out a card I guess") because there's no thought in it, no care. The emotional labor is the bit that says "I give a damn and I'm thinking of you", and that's really hard to teach if you don't actually give a damn and don't actually think of others.
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 10:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [23 favorites]
For anyone that enjoyed the PDF sockermom provided, I really enjoyed this more recent one that did not specifically use the term "emotional labour" but spoke about similar "love labour" and how it fits as one of three types of (paid) care labouring:
This paper examines the nature of love labouring and explores how it can be distinguished from other forms of care work. It provides a three fold taxonomy for analysing other-centred work, distinguishing between work required to maintain primary care relations (love labour), secondary care relations (general care work) and tertiary care relations (solidarity work). A central theme of the paper is that primary care relations are not sustainable over time without love labour; that the realization of love, as opposed to the declaration of love, requires work. Drawing on a wide range of theoretical and empirical sources, including a study of caring undertaken by the author, the paper argues that there is mutuality, commitment, trust and responsibility at the heart of love labouring that makes it distinct from general care work and solidarity work. It sets out reasons why it is not possible to commodify the feelings, intentions and commitments of love labourers to supply them on a paid basis.
posted by saucysault at 10:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
This paper examines the nature of love labouring and explores how it can be distinguished from other forms of care work. It provides a three fold taxonomy for analysing other-centred work, distinguishing between work required to maintain primary care relations (love labour), secondary care relations (general care work) and tertiary care relations (solidarity work). A central theme of the paper is that primary care relations are not sustainable over time without love labour; that the realization of love, as opposed to the declaration of love, requires work. Drawing on a wide range of theoretical and empirical sources, including a study of caring undertaken by the author, the paper argues that there is mutuality, commitment, trust and responsibility at the heart of love labouring that makes it distinct from general care work and solidarity work. It sets out reasons why it is not possible to commodify the feelings, intentions and commitments of love labourers to supply them on a paid basis.
posted by saucysault at 10:13 AM on July 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, the interior design stuff is great. My husband and I have been wrestling over paint colors in our new place, and sometimes I get the feeling he wants me to intuit his preferences (some of which are kind of inscrutable to me, like he thinks bright turquoise is a "cold, clinical" color) and then do the actual painting of the rooms for him, so the manual labor, too. It's kind of like when you're doing freelance graphic design and your client starts wanting to use you like a human mouse without taking any of your expertise into account.
Mostly I've just said fuck that, though, and painted the damned walls cold, clinical turquoise.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:19 AM on July 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
Mostly I've just said fuck that, though, and painted the damned walls cold, clinical turquoise.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:19 AM on July 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
-You choose! Completely up to you.
-I choose this.
-Ughhhhh, really??? :( :( :(
THE SEQUEL:
-You choose! Completely up to you!
-No, I'm not going to do that, because you always shoot down everything I choose, and it's exhausting to keep having all my ideas rejected.
-I DO NOT DO THAT! I have never done that in my life! You're just making that up to get me to do all the work!
-OK, well, what about this?
-What, seriously? Now you're just saying stupid things because you don't want to choose.
PART THREE OF THE TRILOGY
-You choose! Completely up to you!
-No, I'm not going through that again.
-Going through what again?
-Suggesting all kinds of stuff for you to put down until we end up getting what you wanted to begin with.
-I DO NOT DO THAT! Name me ONE TIME I did that!
-[names times they did that]
-Oh, my God, what kind of sick mind do you have to have to sit and remember all those times and dates? Can't you ever just let anything go?
-YOU asked ME to name you the times.
-I can't believe you're playing all these sick, twisted mind games just to get out of choosing something.
-OK, what about this?
-Wellll, I don't knoooow...
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:22 AM on July 17, 2015 [104 favorites]
-I choose this.
-Ughhhhh, really??? :( :( :(
THE SEQUEL:
-You choose! Completely up to you!
-No, I'm not going to do that, because you always shoot down everything I choose, and it's exhausting to keep having all my ideas rejected.
-I DO NOT DO THAT! I have never done that in my life! You're just making that up to get me to do all the work!
-OK, well, what about this?
-What, seriously? Now you're just saying stupid things because you don't want to choose.
PART THREE OF THE TRILOGY
-You choose! Completely up to you!
-No, I'm not going through that again.
-Going through what again?
-Suggesting all kinds of stuff for you to put down until we end up getting what you wanted to begin with.
-I DO NOT DO THAT! Name me ONE TIME I did that!
-[names times they did that]
-Oh, my God, what kind of sick mind do you have to have to sit and remember all those times and dates? Can't you ever just let anything go?
-YOU asked ME to name you the times.
-I can't believe you're playing all these sick, twisted mind games just to get out of choosing something.
-OK, what about this?
-Wellll, I don't knoooow...
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:22 AM on July 17, 2015 [104 favorites]
OK - here's my getting married story.
My mom wanted a big wedding. My fiancee/now husband did not.
Fiancee (F): What do you want?
Me: I just want everyone to be happy.
F: That is not a valid response. What do you want for our wedding?
Me: I don't understand what you mean! I WANT EVERYONE TO BE HAPPY!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!
F: You really don't have any idea what I'm asking you, do you?
Me: I really don't understand why you are playing games with me.
OK - So today I understand the question, but at 29, having never been married and most of my boundaries with my parents consisted of just not telling them things. (BTW - we eloped. 15 years later, I could not be happier with that decision.)
posted by Sophie1 at 10:25 AM on July 17, 2015 [32 favorites]
My mom wanted a big wedding. My fiancee/now husband did not.
Fiancee (F): What do you want?
Me: I just want everyone to be happy.
F: That is not a valid response. What do you want for our wedding?
Me: I don't understand what you mean! I WANT EVERYONE TO BE HAPPY!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!
F: You really don't have any idea what I'm asking you, do you?
Me: I really don't understand why you are playing games with me.
OK - So today I understand the question, but at 29, having never been married and most of my boundaries with my parents consisted of just not telling them things. (BTW - we eloped. 15 years later, I could not be happier with that decision.)
posted by Sophie1 at 10:25 AM on July 17, 2015 [32 favorites]
I haven't heard of of term emotional labor before, but as other's have said, it's a relief to have it named and to have the words/vocabulary to discuss it. My friends and I call it being a person, as in, "Why couldn't he just be a person and ask me how my day went?" or "All I wanted was a hug, but he wanted to fix my air conditioner instead - like, be a person, you know!"
I broke up with my last boyfriend because he depended on me completely for all social interaction and because he was awful at making conversation. All conversation fell to me or we would be sitting in silence at all times. It was exhausting. I started dating again after taking a break for a year and it has all been womp womp. I'd been dating this guy since April when my close, wonderful friend passed away unexpectedly last week. The next day, instead of trying to go out for our scheduled date and act normal, I asked him to come over to my house. He showed up late, immediately asked me if something was wrong with my air conditioner because it didn't have drip spout, and then acted like I had grief cooties for the rest of the night. When I tried to talk to him about how stressed I was about getting to the funeral in another state, he said that I would "have to figure it out." Thanks, dude, like I didn't already know that. In the week since, I haven't heard from him at all - no check in to see how I was doing, no 'hey', not even curious to see if I made it to the service. I knew in my gut that he was going to be shit at comforting me, but I invited him over anyways because I liked him a lot, I wanted to give him a chance, and I didn't want to be alone. I can't even say that I'm mad because I knew he would disappoint me. Well, anyways, I didn't tell this baffling story to get sympathy, but instead of share my bit of "He couldn't be a person!"
posted by pumpkinlatte at 10:26 AM on July 17, 2015 [40 favorites]
I broke up with my last boyfriend because he depended on me completely for all social interaction and because he was awful at making conversation. All conversation fell to me or we would be sitting in silence at all times. It was exhausting. I started dating again after taking a break for a year and it has all been womp womp. I'd been dating this guy since April when my close, wonderful friend passed away unexpectedly last week. The next day, instead of trying to go out for our scheduled date and act normal, I asked him to come over to my house. He showed up late, immediately asked me if something was wrong with my air conditioner because it didn't have drip spout, and then acted like I had grief cooties for the rest of the night. When I tried to talk to him about how stressed I was about getting to the funeral in another state, he said that I would "have to figure it out." Thanks, dude, like I didn't already know that. In the week since, I haven't heard from him at all - no check in to see how I was doing, no 'hey', not even curious to see if I made it to the service. I knew in my gut that he was going to be shit at comforting me, but I invited him over anyways because I liked him a lot, I wanted to give him a chance, and I didn't want to be alone. I can't even say that I'm mad because I knew he would disappoint me. Well, anyways, I didn't tell this baffling story to get sympathy, but instead of share my bit of "He couldn't be a person!"
posted by pumpkinlatte at 10:26 AM on July 17, 2015 [40 favorites]
PART THREE OF THE TRILOGY
I had the glorious luck to date for many years a guy who, when he said "i don't care, you decide" actually MEANT "we can do whatever you like for dinner and i'll be happy with your decision, yes, even if you say 'let's see how many mcnuggets we can eat before we get really sick'"
if we weren't both so susceptible to terrifying substance abuse enablement together i assume we would be married and very greasy
posted by poffin boffin at 10:34 AM on July 17, 2015 [102 favorites]
I had the glorious luck to date for many years a guy who, when he said "i don't care, you decide" actually MEANT "we can do whatever you like for dinner and i'll be happy with your decision, yes, even if you say 'let's see how many mcnuggets we can eat before we get really sick'"
if we weren't both so susceptible to terrifying substance abuse enablement together i assume we would be married and very greasy
posted by poffin boffin at 10:34 AM on July 17, 2015 [102 favorites]
One of the things I try hard to do (because my mom does the "whatever you want!" thing and it drives me batty) is clarify *exactly* whether I a) have a vague preference but am totally fine being overruled in favor of a stronger preference, b) have no preference at all, I just want food to go in my mouth, or c) I kind of want to sit in front of the TV with three cans of Pringles and a Snickers bar but I will go to a restaurant like a grownup, just don't make me make any decisions.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:41 AM on July 17, 2015 [70 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 10:41 AM on July 17, 2015 [70 favorites]
In US culture at least, there are certain people within a family or relationship who are going to be asked or automatically expected to step up in situations like an elderly relative needing in-home care or support or company, a niece or nephew needing a last-minute babysitter or someone other than a parent to attend a school play, hosting a holiday event or reunion, visiting someone in a hospital, providing goodies for a playdate, mending fences between arguing parties or keeping lines of communication open, etc., etc., etc. and other people who aren't asked or expected to do those. And we know the general gender breakdown of those two groups.
This thread (which I came to via MetaTalk) has really helped me understand -- and react to! -- something that's going on in my life right now.
I live 2,000 miles away from my family. I love my family, but this is a choice I've made. I don't belong in Texas; I am happy in California. It's difficult being so far away from them, but it is better for me to be happy far away from my family than miserable but within an hour's drive.
My Dad was just diagnosed with lung cancer. Sad and scary. I have a brother. He is an adult. He's 10 years older than me, so he's even adult-ier than I am, at least if we're measuring adulthood by age. He's freaking living in my parent's house right now. He literally could not be closer to them geographically.
And yet people keep asking me if I'm going to move back there, you know, considering. Considering that my folks will need help, is what they mean. That they will need support. That they will need, need, need.
The presumption is that I am the one who should be filling that need, despite the fact that I have a job and a LIFE I would have to abandon in order to do so.
The presumption, when I say "Hell no, I'm not moving back there," is that I don't care enough.
I care. I care enough. I care maybe too much, actually, judging by how little I'm sleeping. But I'm not performing the expected act, and I am being judged for it.
It's been bothering me, but this thread has helped me figure out exactly why. So thanks. And thanks for reassuring me that I'm not shirking a responsibility, and that I'm doing okay.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:42 AM on July 17, 2015 [112 favorites]
This thread (which I came to via MetaTalk) has really helped me understand -- and react to! -- something that's going on in my life right now.
I live 2,000 miles away from my family. I love my family, but this is a choice I've made. I don't belong in Texas; I am happy in California. It's difficult being so far away from them, but it is better for me to be happy far away from my family than miserable but within an hour's drive.
My Dad was just diagnosed with lung cancer. Sad and scary. I have a brother. He is an adult. He's 10 years older than me, so he's even adult-ier than I am, at least if we're measuring adulthood by age. He's freaking living in my parent's house right now. He literally could not be closer to them geographically.
And yet people keep asking me if I'm going to move back there, you know, considering. Considering that my folks will need help, is what they mean. That they will need support. That they will need, need, need.
The presumption is that I am the one who should be filling that need, despite the fact that I have a job and a LIFE I would have to abandon in order to do so.
The presumption, when I say "Hell no, I'm not moving back there," is that I don't care enough.
I care. I care enough. I care maybe too much, actually, judging by how little I'm sleeping. But I'm not performing the expected act, and I am being judged for it.
It's been bothering me, but this thread has helped me figure out exactly why. So thanks. And thanks for reassuring me that I'm not shirking a responsibility, and that I'm doing okay.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:42 AM on July 17, 2015 [112 favorites]
"How about these?" "Nah, I don't like that color." "OK, how about these?" "Ugh, I hate stripes." "OK, what about this?" "mmmm maybe too shiny." "OK, well what do you want?" "I don't know, just pick something."
You just described an ex boyfriend. Every single time we were going out for dinner, that is exactly the conversation we'd have.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:48 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
You just described an ex boyfriend. Every single time we were going out for dinner, that is exactly the conversation we'd have.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:48 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
And yet people keep asking me if I'm going to move back there, you know, considering.
Just smile and say "my brother already lives with them, luckily for everyone!" and if people persist you can be like "it's hurtful that you think my brother is so irresponsible" and other such wonderfully faux clueless I AM IMMUNE TO YOUR MISOGYNY statements.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:51 AM on July 17, 2015 [116 favorites]
Just smile and say "my brother already lives with them, luckily for everyone!" and if people persist you can be like "it's hurtful that you think my brother is so irresponsible" and other such wonderfully faux clueless I AM IMMUNE TO YOUR MISOGYNY statements.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:51 AM on July 17, 2015 [116 favorites]
One of the things I try hard to do
And yeah, see, this is great. I LIKE the people I'm going out to eat with; I am willing to make decisions about where to go as long as I have explicitly stated parameters. If my husband says "I really want to go somewhere where I can get something spicy" or "Someplace with a full bar where we won't have to wait forever" or "I am so hungry please just get food into my face but not Mexican because I had that for lunch," I'm fine with all of that! It's when those parameters exist but are unstated -- and yet I'm still expected to intuit them -- that I get really grumpy.
posted by KathrynT at 10:51 AM on July 17, 2015 [36 favorites]
And yeah, see, this is great. I LIKE the people I'm going out to eat with; I am willing to make decisions about where to go as long as I have explicitly stated parameters. If my husband says "I really want to go somewhere where I can get something spicy" or "Someplace with a full bar where we won't have to wait forever" or "I am so hungry please just get food into my face but not Mexican because I had that for lunch," I'm fine with all of that! It's when those parameters exist but are unstated -- and yet I'm still expected to intuit them -- that I get really grumpy.
posted by KathrynT at 10:51 AM on July 17, 2015 [36 favorites]
It's when those parameters exist but are unstated -- and yet I'm still expected to intuit them -- that I get really grumpy.
I also become grumpy when the parameters, stated or unstated, are impossible and somehow that is MY problem. "I want to eat brunch but I don't want to go into the city before 4pm and no, IHOP isn't brunch, I want good brunch." 6 PM FANCY BRUNCH IS NOT A THING MOM THAT IS CALLED DINNER.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:57 AM on July 17, 2015 [41 favorites]
I also become grumpy when the parameters, stated or unstated, are impossible and somehow that is MY problem. "I want to eat brunch but I don't want to go into the city before 4pm and no, IHOP isn't brunch, I want good brunch." 6 PM FANCY BRUNCH IS NOT A THING MOM THAT IS CALLED DINNER.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:57 AM on July 17, 2015 [41 favorites]
There are a lot of reasons our marriage went downhill but I feel like it started sliding even faster when I refused to handle the emotional labor. His parents are an extreme example of this dynamic and I just did not want to play his mom's role. So either he didn't know how to perform a lot of this labor, or didn't want to, and I certainly didn't want to do all of it, so it just stopped happening. Once it stops happening then you're just going through the motions. You're barely roommates.
I'm not sure there's a surefire shibboleth when dating men to figure out if they're capable of emotional labor, but next time I'd definitely pay more attention to the dynamic between his parents.
posted by desjardins at 10:59 AM on July 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
I'm not sure there's a surefire shibboleth when dating men to figure out if they're capable of emotional labor, but next time I'd definitely pay more attention to the dynamic between his parents.
posted by desjardins at 10:59 AM on July 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
And yes I realize that men should feel ridiculous more. It's all so very uncomfortable to process! It's like a painful deep massage squeezing out all the badness
posted by aydeejones at 11:05 AM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by aydeejones at 11:05 AM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
but next time I'd definitely pay more attention to the dynamic between his parents.
pretty sure I have said this before here but the most exceptional guys I have ever dated have all been the children of hard-working single moms.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:08 AM on July 17, 2015 [21 favorites]
pretty sure I have said this before here but the most exceptional guys I have ever dated have all been the children of hard-working single moms.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:08 AM on July 17, 2015 [21 favorites]
I was thinking of flex's story and suddenly thought of my mother in law. My father in law's mother was living independently in a senior community in the south when she got into a nasty car accident, which forced the family to realize that it really wasn't okay for her to be living on her own. My MIL and sister in law drove to her with a UHaul and moved her north to a nice senior community - not a nursing home but more like a senior apartment where someone else cooks. The community is maybe five minutes away from my in laws and 90 minutes away from my grandmother in law's other son.
My GIL hates the place where she lives and lets people know it. This year, my FIL died so now my MIL is the closest family member for my GIL. My MIL sees her once a week, like my FIL used to do, but that's inadequate for my GIL because nothing will make her happy. My GIL's health proxy and power of attorney were all with my FIL but now that he's dead, my MIL had to get his brother to sign on to it and he gave her a hard time. Mind you, this is his mother. My MIL frequently points out, GIL isn't related to her but somehow she's responsible for her. Recently, my GIL fell and my MIL got a phone call because even though GIL's other son is her health care proxy, he wouldn't answer the phone. So my MIL had to deal with it, as well as requests to take her shopping, doctors' appointments, manicures, etc. All for someone who had a bad attitude and who she is not related to. It sucks.
posted by kat518 at 11:09 AM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
My GIL hates the place where she lives and lets people know it. This year, my FIL died so now my MIL is the closest family member for my GIL. My MIL sees her once a week, like my FIL used to do, but that's inadequate for my GIL because nothing will make her happy. My GIL's health proxy and power of attorney were all with my FIL but now that he's dead, my MIL had to get his brother to sign on to it and he gave her a hard time. Mind you, this is his mother. My MIL frequently points out, GIL isn't related to her but somehow she's responsible for her. Recently, my GIL fell and my MIL got a phone call because even though GIL's other son is her health care proxy, he wouldn't answer the phone. So my MIL had to deal with it, as well as requests to take her shopping, doctors' appointments, manicures, etc. All for someone who had a bad attitude and who she is not related to. It sucks.
posted by kat518 at 11:09 AM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
pretty sure I have said this before here but the most exceptional guys I have ever dated have all been the children of hard-working single moms.
My beloved husband was raised by a single mother, and he has three sisters. This checks out in my experience.
posted by KathrynT at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
My beloved husband was raised by a single mother, and he has three sisters. This checks out in my experience.
posted by KathrynT at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
How often is “gossip” a shorthand slur for “discussing their lives, their hopes, their dreams, offering one another advice, support, affirmation”?
Every time I hear the word "gossip" now I just think about terrible noxious housewife magazine advice from the 1950s and how it explicitly encouraged wives to be quiet, slavish, and isolated. So horrifying.
but next time I'd definitely pay more attention to the dynamic between his parents
This could work, but (with the caveat that possibly the best most feminist straight man on earth is roughly equal to the emotional labor conditioning of the most clueless woman), my boyfriend is pretty good about this stuff-- at least, he really WANTS to do it, and goes out of his way to do things like thoughtful gifts and trip planning-- and his parents are pretty traditional. His dad knows how to cook like four things and doesn't do the housework. So I would hesitate to judge based on parents, though good parenting can cover many sins. (My boyfriend actually cooks dinner every night at the moment, and makes a delicious wine sauce. Though when we mentioned this in front of his family, his brother was like, "ugh, don't encourage him," which I don't even.)
he thinks bright turquoise is a "cold, clinical" color
Oh god-- THIS is what drives me batty about this interior design-y (and, omg, weddings) stuff. It's not like the dudes are like, "no, I don't think burnt orange is a good accent color for that wall, what about this deep red? Look, here's a photo from pinterest." They just pull something out of their ass like, "ugh, stripes? No way, too Christmassy*" and leave you like ?? There is no way I will make you happy if 1) you won't think/work/communicate on this and 2) your preferences are so idiosyncratic that decoding them is psychoanalysis.
*fake, but truthy, nonsequitur example
posted by easter queen at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Every time I hear the word "gossip" now I just think about terrible noxious housewife magazine advice from the 1950s and how it explicitly encouraged wives to be quiet, slavish, and isolated. So horrifying.
but next time I'd definitely pay more attention to the dynamic between his parents
This could work, but (with the caveat that possibly the best most feminist straight man on earth is roughly equal to the emotional labor conditioning of the most clueless woman), my boyfriend is pretty good about this stuff-- at least, he really WANTS to do it, and goes out of his way to do things like thoughtful gifts and trip planning-- and his parents are pretty traditional. His dad knows how to cook like four things and doesn't do the housework. So I would hesitate to judge based on parents, though good parenting can cover many sins. (My boyfriend actually cooks dinner every night at the moment, and makes a delicious wine sauce. Though when we mentioned this in front of his family, his brother was like, "ugh, don't encourage him," which I don't even.)
he thinks bright turquoise is a "cold, clinical" color
Oh god-- THIS is what drives me batty about this interior design-y (and, omg, weddings) stuff. It's not like the dudes are like, "no, I don't think burnt orange is a good accent color for that wall, what about this deep red? Look, here's a photo from pinterest." They just pull something out of their ass like, "ugh, stripes? No way, too Christmassy*" and leave you like ?? There is no way I will make you happy if 1) you won't think/work/communicate on this and 2) your preferences are so idiosyncratic that decoding them is psychoanalysis.
*fake, but truthy, nonsequitur example
posted by easter queen at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed, let's back this up a little if what you want to do is talk about your perspective rather than straight up pick a fight.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:10 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think the best indicator I've found for people who are willing and able to do emotional labor is the "checking in" metric. I'm pretty upfront about my issues - I get migraines and often don't notice when they're coming on, I have energy crashes when I've been out and interacting with people too long, I have other mental and physical health issues - and a good friend and partner checks in with me. "Hey, you doing ok?" or "is it seeming too bright in here?" or "you seem out of sorts - did you remember to eat lunch?" are all things that people who notice me and give a shit about me will ask if I'm looking wobbly or get quiet. And they'll do this for other people too - they're conscious of their surroundings and the people near them and show care actively. I mean, of course I do my best to take care of myself, but when someone else has my back it's awfully nice.
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:11 AM on July 17, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:11 AM on July 17, 2015 [35 favorites]
I had the glorious luck to date for many years a guy who, when he said "i don't care, you decide" actually MEANT "we can do whatever you like for dinner and i'll be happy with your decision, yes, even if you say 'let's see how many mcnuggets we can eat before we get really sick'"
Other side of the coin is a dude who is seemingly so perpetually overcome by analysis-paralysis that he wants you to make all the decisions for him. (That's kinda me - sorry everybody!)
posted by atoxyl at 11:15 AM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Other side of the coin is a dude who is seemingly so perpetually overcome by analysis-paralysis that he wants you to make all the decisions for him. (That's kinda me - sorry everybody!)
posted by atoxyl at 11:15 AM on July 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
(That's kinda me - sorry everybody!)
Serious question, no snark: what do you do when there isn't anyone else available to make these decisions for you?
posted by KathrynT at 11:18 AM on July 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
Serious question, no snark: what do you do when there isn't anyone else available to make these decisions for you?
posted by KathrynT at 11:18 AM on July 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
Speaking of weddings, I got engaged when I was 18 (the wedding did not happen). But from the very first minute, it was Emotional Labor & Pidgeonholing Women City.
"What should our wedding colors be?"
"Oh, I don't know, you pick."
"What about sea green and bronze?"
"What? Why those colors?"
"Uhh... "
"Anyway, you be in charge of that stuff, it's stuff you care about, I'll be in charge of the guest list."
"But I don't care about that stuff? At all! I wanted to elope! (Also you're gonna be in charge of ONE thing?)"
With the wedding colors thing it was like... ok, I know you're a regular dude who is not familiar with the whole range of taupe/mauve/fuchsias in the wide world, but when you heard "wedding colors" were you like "oh well there's like three colors right? How about red and blue?" Sorry not sorry, sea green + bronze is pretty!
I guess that example is more domestic labor, but the concept was that since girls like colors and dresses and flowers, planning an entire wedding with no help/input (except instant veto power from the dude) would be like breathing. Mind you, we were both in college and working at the time. It's not like I was sitting around eating bon bons.
posted by easter queen at 11:19 AM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
"What should our wedding colors be?"
"Oh, I don't know, you pick."
"What about sea green and bronze?"
"What? Why those colors?"
"Uhh... "
"Anyway, you be in charge of that stuff, it's stuff you care about, I'll be in charge of the guest list."
"But I don't care about that stuff? At all! I wanted to elope! (Also you're gonna be in charge of ONE thing?)"
With the wedding colors thing it was like... ok, I know you're a regular dude who is not familiar with the whole range of taupe/mauve/fuchsias in the wide world, but when you heard "wedding colors" were you like "oh well there's like three colors right? How about red and blue?" Sorry not sorry, sea green + bronze is pretty!
I guess that example is more domestic labor, but the concept was that since girls like colors and dresses and flowers, planning an entire wedding with no help/input (except instant veto power from the dude) would be like breathing. Mind you, we were both in college and working at the time. It's not like I was sitting around eating bon bons.
posted by easter queen at 11:19 AM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, I have four sisters and we were all raised by my single dad, who cooked a wide range of meals (before and after the divorce) and kept a spotless house. It doesn't sound super Girl Power-y but it was actually quite excellent for me and my sisters, to see that a man could run an entire household flawlessly (and raise five girls!) while also supporting the family financially with a physical labor job, and if he could do it then there is literally no excuse for a no good husband who claims he can't do half the work, without kids, because he worked and he's tired (boohoo). I am always so incredibly grateful for my dad, both for raising us alone and the great example he set.
posted by easter queen at 11:23 AM on July 17, 2015 [87 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 11:23 AM on July 17, 2015 [87 favorites]
(For the record, HE was raised by a single mom, so it can be a pretty good indicator!)
posted by easter queen at 11:24 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 11:24 AM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
Serious question, no snark: what do you do when there isn't anyone else available to make these decisions for you?
Agonize, overthink, procrastinate!
And yes, this does at some point become an instance of making my own neuroses somebody else's problem - that's what I'm fessing up to here.
posted by atoxyl at 11:25 AM on July 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
Agonize, overthink, procrastinate!
And yes, this does at some point become an instance of making my own neuroses somebody else's problem - that's what I'm fessing up to here.
posted by atoxyl at 11:25 AM on July 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
I grew up watching my (professional, busy, often physically absent) mom absolutely suck at (and really not care about) most routine social network maintenance tasks, like the cards and birthdays, etc. She never really learned it - also didn't have many household labour skills, or interest in learning them, having studied far from family from a young age.
But she's always been a key go-to person for serious heavy lifting for lots of people in her community - the person to call in the event of marriage, birth, divorce, illness, death, sad and good times, generally. She also almost can't help weaving emotional labour into her public-facing job. In her case, it's been rewarded with solid long-standing relationships, and return business. She'd be mortified to think of it in those terms - it's all bound up in her beliefs about what it is to be a "good person" - but I'd say that in her case, that emotional work has paid off, in some ways. Mind you, she's lucky that her professional skill-set, which she sees as a vocation, happens to yield a good return, so there's that. But she still earns less than her male colleagues, not least because she does a ton of pro bono work, and will often cut or forgo her labour costs. She's past helping, though, no one can tell her not to.
The irony is, I'm also crap at cards etc., having never really been taught, and she tells me all the time that I'll be a terrible wife (in case that ever happens).
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:26 AM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
But she's always been a key go-to person for serious heavy lifting for lots of people in her community - the person to call in the event of marriage, birth, divorce, illness, death, sad and good times, generally. She also almost can't help weaving emotional labour into her public-facing job. In her case, it's been rewarded with solid long-standing relationships, and return business. She'd be mortified to think of it in those terms - it's all bound up in her beliefs about what it is to be a "good person" - but I'd say that in her case, that emotional work has paid off, in some ways. Mind you, she's lucky that her professional skill-set, which she sees as a vocation, happens to yield a good return, so there's that. But she still earns less than her male colleagues, not least because she does a ton of pro bono work, and will often cut or forgo her labour costs. She's past helping, though, no one can tell her not to.
The irony is, I'm also crap at cards etc., having never really been taught, and she tells me all the time that I'll be a terrible wife (in case that ever happens).
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:26 AM on July 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
In all of the discussion of taking care of cards/gifts/in-laws/obligations/general drama, we've covered the negative fallout (Why are you breaking your mother's heart?), but not the positive feedback. For instance, when it seemed obvious (at least to me) that dad would need antipsychotic medications and I suggested it, there was massive pushback. When we finally got him on antipsychotic meds, it was all, "We did that just in time, it was such a good decision and we couldn't have done it any sooner." Why, yes, we could have if we had only listened to me! Now I know there were family dynamics here that were at play beyond emotional labor and responsibility for in-laws, but I feel like everytime I make a suggestion - after months of fighting for it, it was suddenly such a good decision and I have to remind myself that I'm not actively being gaslit.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:28 AM on July 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 11:28 AM on July 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
One of the things I've been trying to improve is to use words when I am feeling cranky and do not want to be asked to make decisions. Recently, we were out and about and I was on too-many-people-all-the-things overload but I remembered to say "I am cranky, so please do not ask me to participate in deciding where we're going to eat, I promise I will be happy wherever we end up." And the being happy part is true, because I trust the people I was with and I know them, and I knew we weren't going to end up somewhere heinous.
Likewise, I've also tried being more explicit about the "I could do A, or B, I don't have a strong preference. Also, if you want to do totally other thing, that would probably be okay too, and I will say so if it isn't!"
I have room for improvement, without doubt.
Among the many things I love about threads like this is I honestly don't even feel like I have to ask "what could I do better" because I can read the stories and anecdotes and links and notice things I hadn't noticed, you know? And then (try to) apply that to my life.
posted by rtha at 11:30 AM on July 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
Likewise, I've also tried being more explicit about the "I could do A, or B, I don't have a strong preference. Also, if you want to do totally other thing, that would probably be okay too, and I will say so if it isn't!"
I have room for improvement, without doubt.
Among the many things I love about threads like this is I honestly don't even feel like I have to ask "what could I do better" because I can read the stories and anecdotes and links and notice things I hadn't noticed, you know? And then (try to) apply that to my life.
posted by rtha at 11:30 AM on July 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
And yes, this does at some point become an instance of making my own neuroses somebody else's problem - that's what I'm fessing up to here.
Oh, I realize that! hence the "no snark." But when you're by yourself, eventually the decisions do get made, right? and if you have trouble with that, that would be a good thing to work on fixing for your OWN purposes, right?
I'm sort of holding you up as an example here in a way that isn't really fair, because there is a difference between "I am bad at this, I recognize that it's a problem, I am working on ways to solve it" and "I am bad at this, oopsie daisy, what are you gonna do, I guess that's just the way it is." When it comes to emotional work and domestic work, I see a lot of men who are much more in the latter category than the former.
posted by KathrynT at 11:30 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Oh, I realize that! hence the "no snark." But when you're by yourself, eventually the decisions do get made, right? and if you have trouble with that, that would be a good thing to work on fixing for your OWN purposes, right?
I'm sort of holding you up as an example here in a way that isn't really fair, because there is a difference between "I am bad at this, I recognize that it's a problem, I am working on ways to solve it" and "I am bad at this, oopsie daisy, what are you gonna do, I guess that's just the way it is." When it comes to emotional work and domestic work, I see a lot of men who are much more in the latter category than the former.
posted by KathrynT at 11:30 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Upon further reflection, the "checking in" metric doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, though. Even partners and friends who are super good about that have had some serious blindspots for other kinds of emotional labor, in different areas. I don't know. Maybe this is just a matter of raising awareness - this is a broad spectrum kind of thing, with lots of applications in many different parts of life. I don't think we'll find an easy way to identify those people with great skills. (The partner who's the best at this was raised in a very traditional family, with some awful gender dynamics. Being aware of them and unhappy with them probably helped, but yeah. Single-mom raised partner has had to have several "oh... right" moments. I dunno.)
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:31 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:31 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
My paradigmatic example of emotional labor was, earlier this year we went to a family wedding out of town, with two day of travel each way and where I was in the wedding so my husband was going to have the 3- and 5-year-old kids for basically three straight days, in a strange city, in a hotel, while attending a panoply of family events all over the city.
So I spent quite a bit of time putting together an actual itinerary (which I don't usually do), which turned out to be six pages long, with all the hotels and event locations and times, and travel distances and times, and likely lunch locations, and parks to stop at in the middle of long driving days so the kids could run around; and then for the in-the-city days, which museums were close enough to walk to, were most likely of interest, opened when, and cost what; where the nearest McDonald's or similar was to each in case the kids refused to eat other food; what parks were nearby in case they were up at 6 a.m. and raising hell; which family members were available during various times in case he needed backup and their phone numbers; what public transit to take where; backup plans and alternatives ... on and on. I made a google map of the locations and loaded it into his phone, printed out the itinerary with maps and also sent it to his e-mail so he could direct-click on museum links.
My husband's looking at the hard copy, paging through, and said, "This is ... thorough."
I burst out, "This is what it's like inside my head ALL THE TIME."
He was like, "I think now I get why you get so mad when I'm running late."
It only took him thirteen years to figure it out! :P But really, in my head all the time I have this flipping rolodex of, "We were going to go to the park but it's raining, shoot, can we go to the art museum? But it doesn't open until ten. Maybe we can go to Target and then the museum, but only if I buy nonperishables ... oh, but Child #1 will flip out if we walk past the freezer case and don't buy his special treat ..."
Since the full itinerary-of-my-brain incident, having so much of the "emotional labor" of planning and a four-person trip laid out on the page for him, he's been a LOT more considerate of the amount of emotional labor I do and how much shit I'm keeping track of in my head and why I can't just turn on a dime.
---
Also, people who are bad at the "keeping up with friends" sort of emotional labor, there is NO SHAME in making a recurring event on your google calendar. I am lacking that mental clock that says, "I haven't talked to X in a while, I should call her!" So people I am close to but don't have a reason to talk with every couple of weeks, I put in a reminder. Ditto birthdays. (Just don't tell the person you're doing it for that you did it. I mean, I don't keep it a secret, most of my close friends know I use reminders because my mental time-lapse clock is defective, but don't ever go, "Yeah, I'm just calling you because you popped up on my google calendar as my social obligation for the day.")
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:31 AM on July 17, 2015 [84 favorites]
So I spent quite a bit of time putting together an actual itinerary (which I don't usually do), which turned out to be six pages long, with all the hotels and event locations and times, and travel distances and times, and likely lunch locations, and parks to stop at in the middle of long driving days so the kids could run around; and then for the in-the-city days, which museums were close enough to walk to, were most likely of interest, opened when, and cost what; where the nearest McDonald's or similar was to each in case the kids refused to eat other food; what parks were nearby in case they were up at 6 a.m. and raising hell; which family members were available during various times in case he needed backup and their phone numbers; what public transit to take where; backup plans and alternatives ... on and on. I made a google map of the locations and loaded it into his phone, printed out the itinerary with maps and also sent it to his e-mail so he could direct-click on museum links.
My husband's looking at the hard copy, paging through, and said, "This is ... thorough."
I burst out, "This is what it's like inside my head ALL THE TIME."
He was like, "I think now I get why you get so mad when I'm running late."
It only took him thirteen years to figure it out! :P But really, in my head all the time I have this flipping rolodex of, "We were going to go to the park but it's raining, shoot, can we go to the art museum? But it doesn't open until ten. Maybe we can go to Target and then the museum, but only if I buy nonperishables ... oh, but Child #1 will flip out if we walk past the freezer case and don't buy his special treat ..."
Since the full itinerary-of-my-brain incident, having so much of the "emotional labor" of planning and a four-person trip laid out on the page for him, he's been a LOT more considerate of the amount of emotional labor I do and how much shit I'm keeping track of in my head and why I can't just turn on a dime.
---
Also, people who are bad at the "keeping up with friends" sort of emotional labor, there is NO SHAME in making a recurring event on your google calendar. I am lacking that mental clock that says, "I haven't talked to X in a while, I should call her!" So people I am close to but don't have a reason to talk with every couple of weeks, I put in a reminder. Ditto birthdays. (Just don't tell the person you're doing it for that you did it. I mean, I don't keep it a secret, most of my close friends know I use reminders because my mental time-lapse clock is defective, but don't ever go, "Yeah, I'm just calling you because you popped up on my google calendar as my social obligation for the day.")
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:31 AM on July 17, 2015 [84 favorites]
The single mom test fails when the mom does the emotional labor for the son.
posted by desjardins at 11:52 AM on July 17, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 11:52 AM on July 17, 2015 [26 favorites]
About opting out from someone who always has mostly been an opter-out or a caller-out. Family wise and relationship wise, it's mostly worked out okay, but only because since I've always either opted out ("barchan is just that way") or been really terrible at it, expectations haven't been high. . . until I got married. It's like everyone expected that marriage would turn me into a different person and there was years of suffering to get everyone back to that mindset of "my normal." But I'm pretty clear not only am I an imperfect person I have no desire to be perfect - I really want to just play in the dirt all day, so don't expect cards. OTOH, because I don't fulfill those general expectations, sometimes I get placed in really yucky baskets, i.e. selfish because I called out the guys watching football while the women cook Thanksgiving. But with the load of having to explain/make those choices, or giving up/doing labor because it's less wearying to"keep the peace", as always with criticism like that (especially at work), one has to decide: "Is that a genuine criticism because I AM X, or is that a gender-biased critique based on societal norms and doesn't reflect actual reality?" That's exhausting, too.
I also made choices in my career - I could continue opting out, hurting myself; I could shut up, and put in all the labor necessary for advancement; or I could choose a different path without hope of serious advancement but with much more daily control which would allow me speak up and opt out. (Other choices may vary depending on the woman.) My ambitions aren't executive kind of ambitions, so different path= easy choice. The different path also allows me to be more outspoken and free about supporting other women.
I'm fortunate - many women don't get that choice. It's also frustrating I had to view my career that way. Guys do make career choices based on other factors like family, but they don't have to make choices based on the repercussions of constantly refusing to bring in birthday cakes. (Another terrible thing about emotional labor at work is that women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership". It works similarly in family dynamics, too, i.e., women stepping up, planning, and organizing a family get together with lots of family members is never called leadership but that's what it is!)
Anyway, so I opt/call out on a lot of obvious stuff - but the subtle stuff that drives me crazy. Sometime last year I was just Done with dealing with a particular kind of entitlement. Done doing the subtle emotional labor like calling guy friends when they haven't called me in years; done not calling out behavior like a guy walking down the sidewalk and automatically expecting you to move out of his way just because you're a woman; done not calling out conservative colleagues/friends/family out of a sense of wanting "to keep the peace" - what's the political equivalent of emotional labor? What it really came down to is, to quote the article, I was no longer willing to do "the constant labor of placating men and navigating patriarchal expectations". And I've constantly been surprised by how much of that is actually very subtle emotional labor.
So it's really crystallized the two awful, wearying struggles with opting-out for me. One is the question of what is actually necessary, equal-level give-n-take work required in any kind of good relationship, what is the expected, unappreciated emotional labor, and what is Just Trying to be a Good Person? They're different yet intertwine. The second struggle is, as mentioned, dealing with the repercussions, AND dealing with the expectation of having to explain WHY I'm opting out. When to say, "You need to help plan because I'm not doing all of it," or keep quiet. It's "The reason WHY is because you're a goddamned grown ass adult who obviously feels entitled to both getting your cake and not having to make it because it's not 'important.' " It's also: "FUCK YOU I'M AN EQUAL PERSON YOU ENTITLED PIECE OF SHIT." That's exhausting as hell.
Guy friend: "Why didn't you call me on my anniversary? You didn't, I forgot, and my wife was pissed!" You remember the make/year/model of a car type and obscure sports stats - you're capable of remembering a date. Don't need to explain that. Do not need to explain to you, middle of the sidewalk guy, why I didn't move out of the way when I was already on the right hand side. But oh, not only DO I have to, then I have to deal with male whiny ass hurt feelings, loved ones' hurt feelings/disappointment, get called a bitch, etc. etc. So, so tiring. It's constantly the choice of: do the emotional labor of fulfilling the expectations or not do it and then have the labor of dealing with the unfulfilled expectations. Dammit, I just want to bang on rocks with my hammer.
But reading this thread, I'm like WOWEE have I had it easy. It's really clear how much harder it is for women who haven't always chosen to opt out/ask partners to share the load and then want to, how much I've opted out without realizing it and kind of. . . gotten away it?, and how much work is truly required to make others understand all that other work. I'm guilty of not appreciating it all myself.
posted by barchan at 11:57 AM on July 17, 2015 [72 favorites]
I also made choices in my career - I could continue opting out, hurting myself; I could shut up, and put in all the labor necessary for advancement; or I could choose a different path without hope of serious advancement but with much more daily control which would allow me speak up and opt out. (Other choices may vary depending on the woman.) My ambitions aren't executive kind of ambitions, so different path= easy choice. The different path also allows me to be more outspoken and free about supporting other women.
I'm fortunate - many women don't get that choice. It's also frustrating I had to view my career that way. Guys do make career choices based on other factors like family, but they don't have to make choices based on the repercussions of constantly refusing to bring in birthday cakes. (Another terrible thing about emotional labor at work is that women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership". It works similarly in family dynamics, too, i.e., women stepping up, planning, and organizing a family get together with lots of family members is never called leadership but that's what it is!)
Anyway, so I opt/call out on a lot of obvious stuff - but the subtle stuff that drives me crazy. Sometime last year I was just Done with dealing with a particular kind of entitlement. Done doing the subtle emotional labor like calling guy friends when they haven't called me in years; done not calling out behavior like a guy walking down the sidewalk and automatically expecting you to move out of his way just because you're a woman; done not calling out conservative colleagues/friends/family out of a sense of wanting "to keep the peace" - what's the political equivalent of emotional labor? What it really came down to is, to quote the article, I was no longer willing to do "the constant labor of placating men and navigating patriarchal expectations". And I've constantly been surprised by how much of that is actually very subtle emotional labor.
So it's really crystallized the two awful, wearying struggles with opting-out for me. One is the question of what is actually necessary, equal-level give-n-take work required in any kind of good relationship, what is the expected, unappreciated emotional labor, and what is Just Trying to be a Good Person? They're different yet intertwine. The second struggle is, as mentioned, dealing with the repercussions, AND dealing with the expectation of having to explain WHY I'm opting out. When to say, "You need to help plan because I'm not doing all of it," or keep quiet. It's "The reason WHY is because you're a goddamned grown ass adult who obviously feels entitled to both getting your cake and not having to make it because it's not 'important.' " It's also: "FUCK YOU I'M AN EQUAL PERSON YOU ENTITLED PIECE OF SHIT." That's exhausting as hell.
Guy friend: "Why didn't you call me on my anniversary? You didn't, I forgot, and my wife was pissed!" You remember the make/year/model of a car type and obscure sports stats - you're capable of remembering a date. Don't need to explain that. Do not need to explain to you, middle of the sidewalk guy, why I didn't move out of the way when I was already on the right hand side. But oh, not only DO I have to, then I have to deal with male whiny ass hurt feelings, loved ones' hurt feelings/disappointment, get called a bitch, etc. etc. So, so tiring. It's constantly the choice of: do the emotional labor of fulfilling the expectations or not do it and then have the labor of dealing with the unfulfilled expectations. Dammit, I just want to bang on rocks with my hammer.
But reading this thread, I'm like WOWEE have I had it easy. It's really clear how much harder it is for women who haven't always chosen to opt out/ask partners to share the load and then want to, how much I've opted out without realizing it and kind of. . . gotten away it?, and how much work is truly required to make others understand all that other work. I'm guilty of not appreciating it all myself.
posted by barchan at 11:57 AM on July 17, 2015 [72 favorites]
like i said, this is a thing i personally experienced in my actual personal life that i lived as a person and not a thing i am stating as irrefutable fact for all of humanity
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
I am bad at this, I recognize that it's a problem, I am working on ways to solve it" and "I am bad at this, oopsie daisy, what are you gonna do, I guess that's just the way it is."
Oh, well that's not how I meant it really - it is in fact something I've known I should work on for my own sake for a long time. It's just like - it would be easy to read examples in this thread and think "using your s.o. as a buffer for your family/friends? Ugh, I'm glad we don't do that." But I can think of some things that do fit and one thing in particular this has convinced me to do which is to pick my own damn haircut. Which has actually been an impasse for months - we both agree that I should do something different (than what I've always done) but I keep saying want her to come along and help me ask for something good since I, in all sincerity, feel like I don't know how to "just look on the internet and find something [I] like." And she keeps saying that's a really personal decision - which it is for her to the point that my position is nearly incomprehensible I think - that she doesn't feel comfortable making for me. Anyway you don't learn anything without trying and I'm gonna try to figure out hair I guess.
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, well that's not how I meant it really - it is in fact something I've known I should work on for my own sake for a long time. It's just like - it would be easy to read examples in this thread and think "using your s.o. as a buffer for your family/friends? Ugh, I'm glad we don't do that." But I can think of some things that do fit and one thing in particular this has convinced me to do which is to pick my own damn haircut. Which has actually been an impasse for months - we both agree that I should do something different (than what I've always done) but I keep saying want her to come along and help me ask for something good since I, in all sincerity, feel like I don't know how to "just look on the internet and find something [I] like." And she keeps saying that's a really personal decision - which it is for her to the point that my position is nearly incomprehensible I think - that she doesn't feel comfortable making for me. Anyway you don't learn anything without trying and I'm gonna try to figure out hair I guess.
posted by atoxyl at 11:58 AM on July 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Another irony re my moms and me is that she didn't have a lot of time or juice left in her for that third shift re emotional goings-on inside the house [something she can't rid herself of guilt about], so I guess I wound up wanting to pick up the slack, for sociological and whatever psychological reasons. I have become decently good at some of it, can't really turn it off, and haven't found a way to monetize it.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:00 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:00 PM on July 17, 2015
I have a pretty small sample size of dudes who I dated, but one of the ones raised by a single mom was super emotionally abusive and sexually coercive. That could totally be an exception, though; most of the others have been pretty great. But none of this stuff is universal!
I had the glorious luck to date for many years a guy who, when he said "i don't care, you decide" actually MEANT "we can do whatever you like for dinner and i'll be happy with your decision, yes, even if you say 'let's see how many mcnuggets we can eat before we get really sick'"
This is how my lovely kissfriend is, but I'm still BRACED 4 BULLSHIT all the time because I'm so used to dudes for whom this is a huge problem, and I still haven't figured out to relax about it. I sent him this and KathrynT's post about "YOU GET THREE VETOES" to explain the baggage I have because it did SUCH A GOOD JOB.
posted by NoraReed at 12:05 PM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
I had the glorious luck to date for many years a guy who, when he said "i don't care, you decide" actually MEANT "we can do whatever you like for dinner and i'll be happy with your decision, yes, even if you say 'let's see how many mcnuggets we can eat before we get really sick'"
This is how my lovely kissfriend is, but I'm still BRACED 4 BULLSHIT all the time because I'm so used to dudes for whom this is a huge problem, and I still haven't figured out to relax about it. I sent him this and KathrynT's post about "YOU GET THREE VETOES" to explain the baggage I have because it did SUCH A GOOD JOB.
posted by NoraReed at 12:05 PM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is how my lovely kissfriend is, but I'm still BRACED 4 BULLSHIT all the time because I'm so used to dudes for whom this is a huge problem, and I still haven't figured out to relax about it.
UGH YES THIS. There have been a number of occasions where my partner and I have had this kind of fight not because he's Doing The Thing but because I'm afraid he'll Do The Thing because all the other dudes Did the Thing and I get all twisty inside over trying to cope with the Thing I'm Afraid He'll Do but He Hasn't Even Done and I argue with myself about it in the shower and then come out and he's folding laundry and I feel like a dope, oh lord.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:11 PM on July 17, 2015 [55 favorites]
UGH YES THIS. There have been a number of occasions where my partner and I have had this kind of fight not because he's Doing The Thing but because I'm afraid he'll Do The Thing because all the other dudes Did the Thing and I get all twisty inside over trying to cope with the Thing I'm Afraid He'll Do but He Hasn't Even Done and I argue with myself about it in the shower and then come out and he's folding laundry and I feel like a dope, oh lord.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:11 PM on July 17, 2015 [55 favorites]
I also think that emotional labor might be, for a lot of people, a really useful way of thinking of things that are particularly taxing for introverts. I'm wondering how much of what I think of as my introversion is being really bad with situations where I don't know what the expectations of what kind of emotional labor I am supposed to be doing are.
I've been talking about this with my dad a lot. He characterizes a lot of this stuff in ways that relate to introversion, but it could easily be characterized in ways relating to emotional labor instead. One of the things that comes up is keeping his door open at his office, and I think that's because there's, like, an emotional labor background process going on that is being-prepared-to-talk-to-people-all-the-time when you do have it open. So thinking about it this way might be a really useful thing to keep track of.
posted by NoraReed at 12:15 PM on July 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
I've been talking about this with my dad a lot. He characterizes a lot of this stuff in ways that relate to introversion, but it could easily be characterized in ways relating to emotional labor instead. One of the things that comes up is keeping his door open at his office, and I think that's because there's, like, an emotional labor background process going on that is being-prepared-to-talk-to-people-all-the-time when you do have it open. So thinking about it this way might be a really useful thing to keep track of.
posted by NoraReed at 12:15 PM on July 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
One thing I really don't get is like... stereotypically, I don't care about cars. At all. Sure there are some cars I've seen that I think look nice, but if you asked me to name one, I couldn't. But if I needed to buy a car-- I would do the research! I would care! And I would not be like "ugh idk, boyfriend, just pick one out"-- because I realize that I actually DO care and there are probably aspects I haven't even thought about until I look into it further. And I would value his expertise and ask him questions/advice, but I'd want to be an active part of that process. I would take into account utility, looks, price, etc. Even though I'm utterly out of my depth in that realm.
So when a dude is just like "w/evs, don't care, you pick," it's so lazy but also just so dumb. Of course you care, you will care the moment you see what she actually picks. Why not just invest some energy into figuring out what you want, so as to make everyone happier. How do you not notice this pattern in your life. How are you so comfortable just shunting it off onto her.
atoxyl, your example of hair is a funny one because I can imagine myself at 16 having the same problem. I was not popular or fashion-savvy and very hopeless at turning what I vaguely wanted into a reality. I think women just get pushed into making decisions so often we've gotten pretty efficient at ruthlessly evaluating all the options and distilling that research into a decision. (And if we don't want to do that work, because tired or whatever, we get criticized or nothing happens or we get a partner who takes foreeeeever to make a choice, because he has no experience having to care.)
(Also I know this isn't the give-men-advice thread, but since I just recently discovered pinterest for real, maybe try pinterest? I know it's coded very feminine, but in the app at least, and I assume the website, you just type in a few adjectives and it generates a lot of visual references for you, even for men's fashion. Like I just typed "men's haircut spiky" and got a ton of photos of men's haircuts. It's actually a very magical tool for this exact female responsibility a lot of people are talking about, i.e. curtains and stuff. Female magick. /derail)
I used to be Little Miss Anxiety and just simply could not make a decision on my own. Then I realized what it was doing to my relationships and I learned how. The "then I realized what it was doing to my relationships" part is what so many straight men seem to lack.
posted by easter queen at 12:16 PM on July 17, 2015 [28 favorites]
So when a dude is just like "w/evs, don't care, you pick," it's so lazy but also just so dumb. Of course you care, you will care the moment you see what she actually picks. Why not just invest some energy into figuring out what you want, so as to make everyone happier. How do you not notice this pattern in your life. How are you so comfortable just shunting it off onto her.
atoxyl, your example of hair is a funny one because I can imagine myself at 16 having the same problem. I was not popular or fashion-savvy and very hopeless at turning what I vaguely wanted into a reality. I think women just get pushed into making decisions so often we've gotten pretty efficient at ruthlessly evaluating all the options and distilling that research into a decision. (And if we don't want to do that work, because tired or whatever, we get criticized or nothing happens or we get a partner who takes foreeeeever to make a choice, because he has no experience having to care.)
(Also I know this isn't the give-men-advice thread, but since I just recently discovered pinterest for real, maybe try pinterest? I know it's coded very feminine, but in the app at least, and I assume the website, you just type in a few adjectives and it generates a lot of visual references for you, even for men's fashion. Like I just typed "men's haircut spiky" and got a ton of photos of men's haircuts. It's actually a very magical tool for this exact female responsibility a lot of people are talking about, i.e. curtains and stuff. Female magick. /derail)
I used to be Little Miss Anxiety and just simply could not make a decision on my own. Then I realized what it was doing to my relationships and I learned how. The "then I realized what it was doing to my relationships" part is what so many straight men seem to lack.
posted by easter queen at 12:16 PM on July 17, 2015 [28 favorites]
The "I don't know how" and "ugh, you do it" things always feel like dudes asking me to be the internet for them. It's like, you know, I wasn't born knowing how to scrub a toilet. Or fold fitted sheets (hell, I still look that one up every time). Or what colors looks nice together. Or any of the million other things I've been asked to do because hey, I already know how, right? I've got no 'intuitive grasp' on these things that are coded feminine, but when it comes time to do a thing and a dude says "I don't know how! It's faster / easier / simpler for you to just do it" I want to remind him that we are living in the future now, and he has a computer in his pocket upon which all manner of information can appear. I am not the equivalent of Let Me Google That For you. Yeah, I took the time to learn. So can you.
posted by lriG rorriM at 12:31 PM on July 17, 2015 [34 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 12:31 PM on July 17, 2015 [34 favorites]
That's what I always say... "there has literally never been a time in human history where you would have access to more information than you do now. You, too, can learn to cut an avocado."
posted by easter queen at 12:34 PM on July 17, 2015 [45 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 12:34 PM on July 17, 2015 [45 favorites]
Which by the way, I learned from television, not from my mother or my innate womanhood. I saw it on TV and thought, "Hey, I like guacamole, better file that one away." Like the rugged self-sufficient pioneer woman I am.
posted by easter queen at 12:36 PM on July 17, 2015 [41 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 12:36 PM on July 17, 2015 [41 favorites]
not because he's Doing The Thing but because I'm afraid he'll Do The Thing
Yep. My partner calls it "waiting for the other shoe to drop" and wants me to stop expecting shit to fuck up and for him to turn out to be an ass in X way and I am just like "BUT YOU DON'T GET IT SHIT ALWAYS GETS FUCKED UP" even though in this particular instance he has given me no reason to think he'll pull those things. It's a lifetime of subtle emotional trauma.
posted by Phire at 12:37 PM on July 17, 2015 [19 favorites]
Yep. My partner calls it "waiting for the other shoe to drop" and wants me to stop expecting shit to fuck up and for him to turn out to be an ass in X way and I am just like "BUT YOU DON'T GET IT SHIT ALWAYS GETS FUCKED UP" even though in this particular instance he has given me no reason to think he'll pull those things. It's a lifetime of subtle emotional trauma.
posted by Phire at 12:37 PM on July 17, 2015 [19 favorites]
Another terrible thing about emotional labor at work is that women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership".
Oh, wow, yes!
Work anecdote: Me, late 20s, sole woman; web designer in an office with three male middle-aged programmers and one male middle-aged head of IT. Every month, our somewhat chatty, affable boss would take us out to lunch as a team. The lunches were dreadful, not only because the restaurant was inevitably nasty, but also because I felt like a talk show host with a panel of reticent guests. I realized just how much effort I was putting into keeping any kind of conversation going the day I had a horrible cold and couldn't talk. We drove six miles to the restaurant in total silence. It might have even been after the sodas got to the table when my boss finally cracked and tried to start a conversation.
posted by mimi at 12:37 PM on July 17, 2015 [32 favorites]
Oh, wow, yes!
Work anecdote: Me, late 20s, sole woman; web designer in an office with three male middle-aged programmers and one male middle-aged head of IT. Every month, our somewhat chatty, affable boss would take us out to lunch as a team. The lunches were dreadful, not only because the restaurant was inevitably nasty, but also because I felt like a talk show host with a panel of reticent guests. I realized just how much effort I was putting into keeping any kind of conversation going the day I had a horrible cold and couldn't talk. We drove six miles to the restaurant in total silence. It might have even been after the sodas got to the table when my boss finally cracked and tried to start a conversation.
posted by mimi at 12:37 PM on July 17, 2015 [32 favorites]
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese: "...I get all twisty inside over trying to cope with the Thing I'm Afraid He'll Do but He Hasn't Even Done and I argue with myself about it in the shower and then come out and he's folding laundry and I feel like a dope, oh lord."
Oh god I'm not the only one! Right down to inventing arguments and scenarios in my head while in the shower. Of course only to come out and find my partner being a completely decent person and feel all guilty and stuff for imagining him as anything but.
Death of a thousand poisoned cuts.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:48 PM on July 17, 2015 [25 favorites]
Oh god I'm not the only one! Right down to inventing arguments and scenarios in my head while in the shower. Of course only to come out and find my partner being a completely decent person and feel all guilty and stuff for imagining him as anything but.
Death of a thousand poisoned cuts.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:48 PM on July 17, 2015 [25 favorites]
Actually, Let Me Google That For You is a great example of this whole issue. It's a gag that people came up with to point out how demands on people's emotional/cognitive labor can be tiresome and are rarely appreciated. Rather than googling for themselves "how to fold a fitted sheet", they ask someone to do it for them. I can't tell you how many times I've started an AskMe and then part way in realized "oh, this is something I could just spend 15 minutes figuring out on my own but don't want to, I shouldn't post this".
posted by skewed at 12:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [38 favorites]
posted by skewed at 12:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [38 favorites]
Now I know how to fold a fitted sheet!
posted by bq at 12:55 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by bq at 12:55 PM on July 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Oh god I'm not the only one! Right down to inventing arguments and scenarios in my head while in the shower.
The worst part is when he pokes his head into the bathroom to be like, "do you want some coffee" and because I've been fighting the patriarchy in my head for 10 minutes I'm like WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN -- oh, uh, yes please.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:58 PM on July 17, 2015 [80 favorites]
The worst part is when he pokes his head into the bathroom to be like, "do you want some coffee" and because I've been fighting the patriarchy in my head for 10 minutes I'm like WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN -- oh, uh, yes please.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:58 PM on July 17, 2015 [80 favorites]
I love this thread. It's made me realize the amount of emotional labor that is dumped on various people / departments at work and that tbh I really have no desire to have to do this kind of labor for colleagues on top of what is actually required for say clients.
posted by oneear at 12:58 PM on July 17, 2015
posted by oneear at 12:58 PM on July 17, 2015
The gender-coded Leadership vs Teamwork is a brilliant observation. As mentioned above, "gossip" is also gendered feminine (and destructive and petty) but "networking" is male and necessary for most careers. My organisation has a volunteer Board that ensures an arms-length distance between our funders (politicians) and the decision-makers. It is an important job to be on the Board and set policy, but it is also one they do in their free time and perhaps may not have the big picture of the Public Library world as they don't actually perform the work or have direct experience in operations of non-profit organisations (so business experience may not be directly translatable).
A lot of the meetings then is really using a lot of emotional labour (I have a three hour one last night on top of my eight hour say so it is fresh in my mind). When a concern is brought up - last night it was purchasing iPads of all things - in addition to intelligently speaking on the technological aspects of getting various software and hardware to play nice together and a bit of future-casting because I am expected to know what the life-cycle of hardware is and what the "next big thing" will be - I have to identify the emotions beyond the questions and comments and address THOSE as well. But not let them see the gears turning as I subtly shift what I am emphasising and de-emphasising as I gauge their reactions.
In public libraries we have the reference interview where someone comes with a question and you use a systematic process to identify the REAL question and provide the correct information quickly, in an efficient way that the patron (unspoken) expects to receive the information. A true pro does it so well that most patrons don't even realise it has happened and think they got the "right" answer because they asked the "right" question right off the bat.
Kind of like the idea that a good conversationalist makes you think they are the most interesting person in the world, but a GREAT conversationalist makes you think YOU are the most interesting person in the world. That is what double-edged sword of emotional labour is, in a nutshell, doing such a great job of convincing the other person they ares so interesting, worthy of love, and attention that they don't even realise it was actual work to get to that point and that it should be reciprocated. It is finding out what other's expectations are and then meeting those expectations so naturally it makes the expectations seem reasonable and normal (when most of the time they are not - as any parent of a teenager can attest).
It is however very rewarding. I have a huge circle of friends I can call on in crisis - actually, I don't even have to call on them, they just know exactly what need to fulfill, and step back without adding expectations. When my husband was at his most worst, in the hospital for months, my family and friends stepped up in so many ways - part of the stepping up was visiting him in order to lessen the burden on my travel time back and forth to the city, as well as spending hours talking to him, delivering clothes and food he liked (and hadn't asked for!) but mostly it was focused on me. Because he didn't understand the value of emotional labour not one (of his) family or friend visited him in all those months - let alone help me with childcare or a shoulder to lean on. Their lack of emotional labour when he was in crisis prolonged and deepened his crisis for years. The emotional labour also betters the community I live in FOR ME.
posted by saucysault at 1:11 PM on July 17, 2015 [58 favorites]
A lot of the meetings then is really using a lot of emotional labour (I have a three hour one last night on top of my eight hour say so it is fresh in my mind). When a concern is brought up - last night it was purchasing iPads of all things - in addition to intelligently speaking on the technological aspects of getting various software and hardware to play nice together and a bit of future-casting because I am expected to know what the life-cycle of hardware is and what the "next big thing" will be - I have to identify the emotions beyond the questions and comments and address THOSE as well. But not let them see the gears turning as I subtly shift what I am emphasising and de-emphasising as I gauge their reactions.
In public libraries we have the reference interview where someone comes with a question and you use a systematic process to identify the REAL question and provide the correct information quickly, in an efficient way that the patron (unspoken) expects to receive the information. A true pro does it so well that most patrons don't even realise it has happened and think they got the "right" answer because they asked the "right" question right off the bat.
Kind of like the idea that a good conversationalist makes you think they are the most interesting person in the world, but a GREAT conversationalist makes you think YOU are the most interesting person in the world. That is what double-edged sword of emotional labour is, in a nutshell, doing such a great job of convincing the other person they ares so interesting, worthy of love, and attention that they don't even realise it was actual work to get to that point and that it should be reciprocated. It is finding out what other's expectations are and then meeting those expectations so naturally it makes the expectations seem reasonable and normal (when most of the time they are not - as any parent of a teenager can attest).
It is however very rewarding. I have a huge circle of friends I can call on in crisis - actually, I don't even have to call on them, they just know exactly what need to fulfill, and step back without adding expectations. When my husband was at his most worst, in the hospital for months, my family and friends stepped up in so many ways - part of the stepping up was visiting him in order to lessen the burden on my travel time back and forth to the city, as well as spending hours talking to him, delivering clothes and food he liked (and hadn't asked for!) but mostly it was focused on me. Because he didn't understand the value of emotional labour not one (of his) family or friend visited him in all those months - let alone help me with childcare or a shoulder to lean on. Their lack of emotional labour when he was in crisis prolonged and deepened his crisis for years. The emotional labour also betters the community I live in FOR ME.
posted by saucysault at 1:11 PM on July 17, 2015 [58 favorites]
One is the question of what is actually necessary, equal-level give-n-take work required in any kind of good relationship, what is the expected, unappreciated emotional labor, and what is Just Trying to be a Good Person? They're different yet intertwine.
This is so spot-on, barchan. Interestingly, over the past few years I've realized that the "expected but unappreciated emotional labor" category also encompasses some habits that are actively counterproductive to both my happiness AND the the person I'm trying to accommodate, but it's really hard to break out of patterns that you've been socialized into since you were a kid, even if they are no longer serving anyone very well. It's really hit home as I've had front-row seats to my in-law's marriage this year; he's an alcoholic (in very recent recovery) and she's been working on improving some of the dysfunctional marriage dynamics that she's feeding into. It turns out that if you amp up performing emotional labor on behalf of your partner to its final end-point, you end up codependent. As many people in Al-Anon would point out, a codependent relationship is doing no favors for either party.
It's been freeing in my own marriage to wrench myself back from trying to manage my partner's emotions in low-stakes situations, and to realize that in most cases we're both happier that way. For the most part this has involved trying to plainly state my preferences or needs without hedging or taking into account what my partner wants or needs, and trusting that he can take care of his own side of the house (so to speak). This thread has given me a lot to consider in terms of other places where it might be appropriate to step back and let him take care of his own stuff. And also what types of emotional labor I neglect but are high-impact and important in the sense of Being A Good Person, and could more be more usefully attended to. More sending unprompted emails with pictures of my kid to the great-grandparents who would appreciate the connection, less trying to manage situations in a way that magically accommodates the feelings of fully grown adults who can use their words if they have a need not being addressed.
posted by iminurmefi at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2015 [25 favorites]
This is so spot-on, barchan. Interestingly, over the past few years I've realized that the "expected but unappreciated emotional labor" category also encompasses some habits that are actively counterproductive to both my happiness AND the the person I'm trying to accommodate, but it's really hard to break out of patterns that you've been socialized into since you were a kid, even if they are no longer serving anyone very well. It's really hit home as I've had front-row seats to my in-law's marriage this year; he's an alcoholic (in very recent recovery) and she's been working on improving some of the dysfunctional marriage dynamics that she's feeding into. It turns out that if you amp up performing emotional labor on behalf of your partner to its final end-point, you end up codependent. As many people in Al-Anon would point out, a codependent relationship is doing no favors for either party.
It's been freeing in my own marriage to wrench myself back from trying to manage my partner's emotions in low-stakes situations, and to realize that in most cases we're both happier that way. For the most part this has involved trying to plainly state my preferences or needs without hedging or taking into account what my partner wants or needs, and trusting that he can take care of his own side of the house (so to speak). This thread has given me a lot to consider in terms of other places where it might be appropriate to step back and let him take care of his own stuff. And also what types of emotional labor I neglect but are high-impact and important in the sense of Being A Good Person, and could more be more usefully attended to. More sending unprompted emails with pictures of my kid to the great-grandparents who would appreciate the connection, less trying to manage situations in a way that magically accommodates the feelings of fully grown adults who can use their words if they have a need not being addressed.
posted by iminurmefi at 1:18 PM on July 17, 2015 [25 favorites]
erratic meatsack: "Right down to inventing arguments and scenarios in my head while in the shower. "
One day my dad came home from work and my mother announced, as he came in the door, "I had a fight with you in my head about something that didn't happen, and you lost. It's going to be faster if you just apologize now."
He apologized and made her a scotch.
Sometimes I tell my husband this. "I have been having a hypothetical fight with you in my head and now I'm really mad at you." And he'll be like, "Well, I'm sorry imaginary me did the hypothetical thing and I'll make sure not to do it next time." Part of a healthy marriage is the emotional labor of coping with the other person's fevered imaginings!)
easter queen: "But if I needed to buy a car-- I would do the research! I would care! And I would not be like "ugh idk, boyfriend, just pick one out"-- because I realize that I actually DO care and there are probably aspects I haven't even thought about until I look into it further. And I would value his expertise and ask him questions/advice, but I'd want to be an active part of that process."
One of the nicer things about a long-term, healthy relationship where both people do emotional work is that you actually CAN offload some of that work on your spouse/partner and trust them to make a good decision for your family that takes your needs into account. When I needed a new car, I told my husband just a vague universe of what I probably wanted ("six seats? but pretty good gas mileage? I don't know, I hate this stuff.") and he came back having researched the universe of small minivans and narrowed it down to a few options he thought I would like and would suit me, and he knew what kinds of things I actually want when I drive and what things I don't give a crap about, it was like having a car-picking concierge. We have this one chair that slightly sticks out into the walking area that he is always banging his shins on, and just today I measured the space and ordered a NEW CHAIR that won't protrude so he can stop banging his shins. I didn't even think to mention it to him, I just kept thinking, "Oh, I should really solve that chair thing so he'll quit tripping on it." Just like my car choices are magically narrowed only to ones that really suit me, his environment magically fixes itself so he doesn't trip on things or his ties are organized.
If I were the only one doing that, it would be onerous and I'd be resentful. But since he also magically improves my life and takes on shit so I don't have to think about it, I feel good about magically improving his. In fact I may not tell him about the new chair and just gleefully wait for him to realize he stopped banging his shins on it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:21 PM on July 17, 2015 [117 favorites]
One day my dad came home from work and my mother announced, as he came in the door, "I had a fight with you in my head about something that didn't happen, and you lost. It's going to be faster if you just apologize now."
He apologized and made her a scotch.
Sometimes I tell my husband this. "I have been having a hypothetical fight with you in my head and now I'm really mad at you." And he'll be like, "Well, I'm sorry imaginary me did the hypothetical thing and I'll make sure not to do it next time." Part of a healthy marriage is the emotional labor of coping with the other person's fevered imaginings!)
easter queen: "But if I needed to buy a car-- I would do the research! I would care! And I would not be like "ugh idk, boyfriend, just pick one out"-- because I realize that I actually DO care and there are probably aspects I haven't even thought about until I look into it further. And I would value his expertise and ask him questions/advice, but I'd want to be an active part of that process."
One of the nicer things about a long-term, healthy relationship where both people do emotional work is that you actually CAN offload some of that work on your spouse/partner and trust them to make a good decision for your family that takes your needs into account. When I needed a new car, I told my husband just a vague universe of what I probably wanted ("six seats? but pretty good gas mileage? I don't know, I hate this stuff.") and he came back having researched the universe of small minivans and narrowed it down to a few options he thought I would like and would suit me, and he knew what kinds of things I actually want when I drive and what things I don't give a crap about, it was like having a car-picking concierge. We have this one chair that slightly sticks out into the walking area that he is always banging his shins on, and just today I measured the space and ordered a NEW CHAIR that won't protrude so he can stop banging his shins. I didn't even think to mention it to him, I just kept thinking, "Oh, I should really solve that chair thing so he'll quit tripping on it." Just like my car choices are magically narrowed only to ones that really suit me, his environment magically fixes itself so he doesn't trip on things or his ties are organized.
If I were the only one doing that, it would be onerous and I'd be resentful. But since he also magically improves my life and takes on shit so I don't have to think about it, I feel good about magically improving his. In fact I may not tell him about the new chair and just gleefully wait for him to realize he stopped banging his shins on it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:21 PM on July 17, 2015 [117 favorites]
women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership".
Holy shit.
HOLY SHIT.
Well...there's my career described in a single sentence.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:32 PM on July 17, 2015 [186 favorites]
Holy shit.
HOLY SHIT.
Well...there's my career described in a single sentence.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:32 PM on July 17, 2015 [186 favorites]
If I were the only one doing that, it would be onerous and I'd be resentful. But since he also magically improves my life and takes on shit so I don't have to think about it, I feel good about magically improving his. In fact I may not tell him about the new chair and just gleefully wait for him to realize he stopped banging his shins on it.
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if a lot of these dudes never get that frisson of anticipatory joy from doing a tiny thing that will just perfectly improve the life of a beloved person... and if so, that makes me sad. Because noticing a small thing that's bothering someone beloved and figuring out just the right thing to fix it so everyone is happy is just such a good feeling! Like, you get to feel smug and self-satisfied and no one is going to get irritated about it! You just get to bask in the reflected joy and the knowledge that you did a thing no one else could have done.
And when you trust your partner or your friend to return the favor somewhere down the line, man. On this foundation is built a castle of love. How can you not care enough about your loved ones to pay attention to the little things, the care-taking things, and figure out exactly what it is that would make those little life improvements? How can you forego that feeling? It boggles my mind.
posted by sciatrix at 1:33 PM on July 17, 2015 [56 favorites]
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if a lot of these dudes never get that frisson of anticipatory joy from doing a tiny thing that will just perfectly improve the life of a beloved person... and if so, that makes me sad. Because noticing a small thing that's bothering someone beloved and figuring out just the right thing to fix it so everyone is happy is just such a good feeling! Like, you get to feel smug and self-satisfied and no one is going to get irritated about it! You just get to bask in the reflected joy and the knowledge that you did a thing no one else could have done.
And when you trust your partner or your friend to return the favor somewhere down the line, man. On this foundation is built a castle of love. How can you not care enough about your loved ones to pay attention to the little things, the care-taking things, and figure out exactly what it is that would make those little life improvements? How can you forego that feeling? It boggles my mind.
posted by sciatrix at 1:33 PM on July 17, 2015 [56 favorites]
This has been such an incredible thread.... thank you all so much for sharing your experiences and perspectives. I've spent the last three days having a million revelations about so many situations and relationships in my life.
This story is kind of silly in comparison to all that. But. On the "Let Me Google That For You" front...
When I was much younger I was in a long term, live in relationship with a dude who was guilty of a lot of this, especially the logistical and decision-making aspects. A couple years into our relationship, I noticed that he had gotten into a habit of asking me how long he should microwave things for. Like, every single time. And I would always make some random guess, like, "Uh... I dunno, a minute and a half I guess?"
Then one day it suddenly occurred to me. He was a latchkey kid who'd grown up making himself snacks and meals in the microwave pretty much every day. Meanwhile my childhood was a lot more cooking from scratch. He probably had like five times the overall lifetime microwave experience that I did. But it was just easier for him to ask me for input rather than figuring it out for himself. And the result was that every time he wanted to eat a plate of leftovers or something, he'd interrupt me and demand a fraction of my attention and mental resources.
After a year or something of this, I just kinda blew up at him, although in a joking way (because I wouldn't want to hurt his feelings!), like, "DUDE! You've spent most of your life feeding yourself via microwaves! You can handle this! In fact, I should be asking you!" He was like, "You're right, lol." And... kept on doing it.
That whole microwave situation was pretty much a microcosm of our relationship as a whole. That dynamic manifested itself in *everything,* and it's pretty much the only reason we broke up.
(Obviously, the break-up wasn't about the microwave. I just reached a point where I realized I couldn't trust him to handle or remember or take care of anything, culminating in a sobbing breakdown for me the day after Christmas when I'd just spent the last week exhausting every last emotional and physical resource to keep both our families happy, and... you know the rest.)
posted by the turtle's teeth at 2:10 PM on July 17, 2015 [36 favorites]
This story is kind of silly in comparison to all that. But. On the "Let Me Google That For You" front...
When I was much younger I was in a long term, live in relationship with a dude who was guilty of a lot of this, especially the logistical and decision-making aspects. A couple years into our relationship, I noticed that he had gotten into a habit of asking me how long he should microwave things for. Like, every single time. And I would always make some random guess, like, "Uh... I dunno, a minute and a half I guess?"
Then one day it suddenly occurred to me. He was a latchkey kid who'd grown up making himself snacks and meals in the microwave pretty much every day. Meanwhile my childhood was a lot more cooking from scratch. He probably had like five times the overall lifetime microwave experience that I did. But it was just easier for him to ask me for input rather than figuring it out for himself. And the result was that every time he wanted to eat a plate of leftovers or something, he'd interrupt me and demand a fraction of my attention and mental resources.
After a year or something of this, I just kinda blew up at him, although in a joking way (because I wouldn't want to hurt his feelings!), like, "DUDE! You've spent most of your life feeding yourself via microwaves! You can handle this! In fact, I should be asking you!" He was like, "You're right, lol." And... kept on doing it.
That whole microwave situation was pretty much a microcosm of our relationship as a whole. That dynamic manifested itself in *everything,* and it's pretty much the only reason we broke up.
(Obviously, the break-up wasn't about the microwave. I just reached a point where I realized I couldn't trust him to handle or remember or take care of anything, culminating in a sobbing breakdown for me the day after Christmas when I'd just spent the last week exhausting every last emotional and physical resource to keep both our families happy, and... you know the rest.)
posted by the turtle's teeth at 2:10 PM on July 17, 2015 [36 favorites]
Ha! That used to happen to me, in an old relationship of mine. I would always say "'til it's warm." Eventually I just become a smartass. #FeminismThroughDadJokes
posted by easter queen at 2:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [87 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 2:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [87 favorites]
#FeminismThroughDadJokes
*acquires this for personal use*
posted by XtinaS at 2:29 PM on July 17, 2015 [20 favorites]
*acquires this for personal use*
posted by XtinaS at 2:29 PM on July 17, 2015 [20 favorites]
Can we please make #FeminismThroughDadJokes a thing? Cuz that really needs to be a thing.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 2:30 PM on July 17, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by the turtle's teeth at 2:30 PM on July 17, 2015 [26 favorites]
"Where's my [thing]?" "Wherever you left it last!" #FeminismThroughDadJokes
"I'm all out of laundry!" "SOCKS TO BE YOU" #FeminismThroughDadJokes
"When are we supposed to get to [event]?" "When we get there!" #FeminismThroughDadJokes
"I'm hungry!" "HI HUNGRY, I'M XTINAS" #FeminismThroughDadJokes
posted by XtinaS at 2:35 PM on July 17, 2015 [247 favorites]
"I'm all out of laundry!" "SOCKS TO BE YOU" #FeminismThroughDadJokes
"When are we supposed to get to [event]?" "When we get there!" #FeminismThroughDadJokes
"I'm hungry!" "HI HUNGRY, I'M XTINAS" #FeminismThroughDadJokes
posted by XtinaS at 2:35 PM on July 17, 2015 [247 favorites]
women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership".
Holy shit.
Yeah. I've thought a lot about this. So much of the emotional labor that women do, like: organizing a group of people and their tasks, logistics, getting shit done & doing things no one else does, listening, weighing everyone's desires, motivation and incentive through various means including providing structure for individual/group effectiveness, creating an atmosphere of unity, effective communication, grasp of knowledge & knowledge transfer, work done on behalf of the group instead of personal gain, relationship building, and CARING, all in pursuit of a common goal - so, so, so much of it falls under the commonly recognized work of leadership. Even if it's just listening to a guy talk about being heartbroken and leading him down to the path of what's to be done or getting kids out of the door in the morning: much of emotional labor is similar to, if not exactly, what we consider leadership traits. . . if applied to a different gender or in a different context.
I haven't come to a clearly defined conclusion yet, but currently I'm floating around two ideas: men coined leadership to recognize when their own gender exhibits those traits, or, OR how men view leadership is actually someone making decisions without actually or being perceived as taking into consideration the needs/desires/impacts of the group, then expecting people to do their bidding due to their "authority". . . which could actually be pretty bad. Like I said, I'm still pondering it because leadership is very complicated and messy, but I'm also coming to the conclusion this must also relate to women being called "bossy" and other terms like aggressive. Whether that's because we step from one kind of leadership to another or because we're simply doing the emotional labor that's expected of us, but in a work environment, I don't know.
posted by barchan at 2:36 PM on July 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
Holy shit.
Yeah. I've thought a lot about this. So much of the emotional labor that women do, like: organizing a group of people and their tasks, logistics, getting shit done & doing things no one else does, listening, weighing everyone's desires, motivation and incentive through various means including providing structure for individual/group effectiveness, creating an atmosphere of unity, effective communication, grasp of knowledge & knowledge transfer, work done on behalf of the group instead of personal gain, relationship building, and CARING, all in pursuit of a common goal - so, so, so much of it falls under the commonly recognized work of leadership. Even if it's just listening to a guy talk about being heartbroken and leading him down to the path of what's to be done or getting kids out of the door in the morning: much of emotional labor is similar to, if not exactly, what we consider leadership traits. . . if applied to a different gender or in a different context.
I haven't come to a clearly defined conclusion yet, but currently I'm floating around two ideas: men coined leadership to recognize when their own gender exhibits those traits, or, OR how men view leadership is actually someone making decisions without actually or being perceived as taking into consideration the needs/desires/impacts of the group, then expecting people to do their bidding due to their "authority". . . which could actually be pretty bad. Like I said, I'm still pondering it because leadership is very complicated and messy, but I'm also coming to the conclusion this must also relate to women being called "bossy" and other terms like aggressive. Whether that's because we step from one kind of leadership to another or because we're simply doing the emotional labor that's expected of us, but in a work environment, I don't know.
posted by barchan at 2:36 PM on July 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
SO: My mum, auntie, uncle are coming down on Wednesday, would you be up for dinner?
Me: Sure.
SO: Where shall we eat, how about X or Y?
Me: How about Z? Its on the way home from where they are planning to be for the day and is lovely.
SO: OK, that is very nice in the summer. I will book it.
All: What a delicious meal, in a beautiful location!
Friend we bumped into as we were on the way out of the pub and he was going in: Hello!
Friend we bumped into on the way out, later on facebook: We just met the super hot bloke who plays Poldark (US: sexy dwarf from The Hobbit) in the pub! And you totally missed him!
Conclusion: Its all my fault.
Don't worry, I will cope.
posted by biffa at 2:44 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Me: Sure.
SO: Where shall we eat, how about X or Y?
Me: How about Z? Its on the way home from where they are planning to be for the day and is lovely.
SO: OK, that is very nice in the summer. I will book it.
All: What a delicious meal, in a beautiful location!
Friend we bumped into as we were on the way out of the pub and he was going in: Hello!
Friend we bumped into on the way out, later on facebook: We just met the super hot bloke who plays Poldark (US: sexy dwarf from The Hobbit) in the pub! And you totally missed him!
Conclusion: Its all my fault.
Don't worry, I will cope.
posted by biffa at 2:44 PM on July 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Random thoughts:
This thread just made me remember my ex-bf from the time my mom died. MY mom died, and HE had an emotional crisis, because he'd never (we were mid-20s) conceptualized his parents' mortality before. So on top of handling the logistical details for the memorial service, navigating birth family drama, and doing my own grieving, I spent the first week after she died comforting HIM. I didn't realize exactly WTF was happening so it took me that week and some family friends saying, "Oh, it must be wonderful to have super-nice [bf's name] to support you and cry on his shoulder at this painful time!" before I said to him, "Wait, MY mom died, why aren't YOU comforting ME?"
One of the daughters in Amy Tan's The Joy Luck Club tries to embody this effortless, invisible caring and making everything work ideal. She succeeds so effectively that she erases herself. The bf I was with at the time didn't understand what the message of that storyline was, and I didn't have the vocabulary to explain it. I only ever saw the movie though. Maybe the book spells out the problem clearly.
"Empathy is the highest form of respect" is a quote from a book that overall didn't impress me hugely, but this one line punched me in the gut. It explained why I was so miserable navigating my MIL relationship, where everything she said was so courteously worded and superficially nurturing, and simultaneously denied that she'd damaged me physically (chronic M(ethicillin) S(usceptible) S(taph) A(ureus) , also fleas that must have developed serious pesticide resistance from her lackadaisical, intermittent flea bombing -- first she disagreed that any of it was a big deal, then she denied being responsible at all, I must have gotten them elsewhere. Have gotten rid of both by now, but it wasn't easy).
I felt shitty for years before figuring out it was really truly okay to distance myself from her (ie, hurt her feelings). Her "no insults+ polite words + genuinely believes she's nurturing me by correcting my perception of what should & shouldn't be a big deal" masked her complete lack of empathy for me in this one matter.
Hell yes, empathy, and emotional labour in all its tangible and intangible forms, are the deepest form of respect. We learn from birth that people of lesser status owe it to people of higher status, and too many higher-status people can't be arsed to think about reciprocating because reciprocation is what you do for those you respect, whose esteem you honour and can't take for granted.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 2:45 PM on July 17, 2015 [22 favorites]
This thread just made me remember my ex-bf from the time my mom died. MY mom died, and HE had an emotional crisis, because he'd never (we were mid-20s) conceptualized his parents' mortality before. So on top of handling the logistical details for the memorial service, navigating birth family drama, and doing my own grieving, I spent the first week after she died comforting HIM. I didn't realize exactly WTF was happening so it took me that week and some family friends saying, "Oh, it must be wonderful to have super-nice [bf's name] to support you and cry on his shoulder at this painful time!" before I said to him, "Wait, MY mom died, why aren't YOU comforting ME?"
One of the daughters in Amy Tan's The Joy Luck Club tries to embody this effortless, invisible caring and making everything work ideal. She succeeds so effectively that she erases herself. The bf I was with at the time didn't understand what the message of that storyline was, and I didn't have the vocabulary to explain it. I only ever saw the movie though. Maybe the book spells out the problem clearly.
"Empathy is the highest form of respect" is a quote from a book that overall didn't impress me hugely, but this one line punched me in the gut. It explained why I was so miserable navigating my MIL relationship, where everything she said was so courteously worded and superficially nurturing, and simultaneously denied that she'd damaged me physically (chronic M(ethicillin) S(usceptible) S(taph) A(ureus) , also fleas that must have developed serious pesticide resistance from her lackadaisical, intermittent flea bombing -- first she disagreed that any of it was a big deal, then she denied being responsible at all, I must have gotten them elsewhere. Have gotten rid of both by now, but it wasn't easy).
I felt shitty for years before figuring out it was really truly okay to distance myself from her (ie, hurt her feelings). Her "no insults+ polite words + genuinely believes she's nurturing me by correcting my perception of what should & shouldn't be a big deal" masked her complete lack of empathy for me in this one matter.
Hell yes, empathy, and emotional labour in all its tangible and intangible forms, are the deepest form of respect. We learn from birth that people of lesser status owe it to people of higher status, and too many higher-status people can't be arsed to think about reciprocating because reciprocation is what you do for those you respect, whose esteem you honour and can't take for granted.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 2:45 PM on July 17, 2015 [22 favorites]
I've been thinking about this for a while in terms of ask and guess culture. I've always been an asker, and this led to all kinds of difficulties with my family, who are guessers and find all this asking business very rude and strange, and also tried to instill in me a lot of my Invisible Logistical Wonder Woman tendencies (rather successfully, to my dismay). I'm considering at the moment the ways invisible support and emotional labor relate to the unwillingness of some folks to state preferences. I can see a pattern here of it-helps-to-be-psychic female identified people navigating these social dynamics, trying to shoulder all kinds of burdens and getting frustrated at the lack of help from others, while simultaneously being unable, unwilling, culturally conditioned against, or just clueless about how to ask for that help. I love that this conversation is happening here. I love that we can point to all these things, all these efforts, all these ways emotional labor is a thing. I think it's super helpful and we could actually distill all kinds of helpful advice for people about how to be aware of these things. I just wish we could mainstream this.
posted by lriG rorriM at 2:57 PM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 2:57 PM on July 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
Scratch that. Thinking about my mom and countless others, it's "whose wellbeing you honour and take as much care of as your own," or something, too.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:06 PM on July 17, 2015
women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership".
Holy shit.
Hey...I think this is part of how women in programming & STEM get sidelined into "project management," which somehow never has the actual authority and actual money of actual management?!
So much head-deskking I am doing from this (fascinating and marvelous) thread!
posted by mimi at 3:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [66 favorites]
Holy shit.
Hey...I think this is part of how women in programming & STEM get sidelined into "project management," which somehow never has the actual authority and actual money of actual management?!
So much head-deskking I am doing from this (fascinating and marvelous) thread!
posted by mimi at 3:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [66 favorites]
Everything said here resonates so strongly, and I appreciate so many excellent comments.
Before my husband died, our marriage was an epic seven year war on just these issues. We were working on it from both sides and things were getting so much better by the time he died, but still not quite there...
One of the things I was no longer doing was keeping a list and ever so gently reminding him of tasks he needed to do. He was supposed to suffer the consequences of things not getting done.
Item 1 found on desk after his death: life insurance policy executed by me six weeks previously. Not executed by him or sent in with the policy payment and therefore not effective.
Item 2 found in drawer after his death: life insurance policy previously obtained by his parents, which his father and I had both done the paperwork to change the beneficiary two years previously, but which hadn't been submitted by him.
Shit.
And the work we had done didn't extend to immediate family, so as a widow suddenly at 34 I was expected to manage everyone else's feelings. (Those that actually gave a shit about my feelings I still treasure dearly. But they were appallingly few and far between.)
Here are some gems:
-my mother told me I wasn't being understanding enough of her pain and that I needed to be more considerate of her because I was doing so well (mind you, being 'considerate' of her meant undoing all of the things that were helping me heal and letting her run my life)
-MIL prepares a list of all the awesome things my husband had done. Literally every single one was something I had either done myself or pressed him to do. I didn't say anything.
-MIL told me she didn't need to see her own therapist because I should just call her every day.
-FIL told me that if I had been a better wife and more focused on my husbands needs (this is specifically related to career choices) that my husband wouldn't have died.
-BIL told me that he was treating me just as a woman in my position should expect to be treated and that I wasn't supportive enough.
My parents are out of my life until my mother actually puts in the work with a therapist to heal. I won't and cannot do it for her. I basically haven't heard from my parents in more than two years.
The in-laws I just stopped putting in the high levels of emotional labour they expected me to do to benefit them (while I was trying to do my own intense emotional labour of healing) and they faded out. I have since heard from others that this is apparently my fault.
It has been three years to the day. I'd really like to date again, but I'm terrified. Terrified of having to do the emotional labor of managing some new guys feelings through: (1) I'm a widow, but that's ok (2) I'm estranged from both families and that was the best choice for me (3) (advanced practice!) I expect you to pull your weight on emotional and domestic labour and actually be a feminist. And that if I by some miracle make it through those steps intact that new guy will then die too. Which fuck that.
So I am unsurprisingly single because I am so done with doing the emotional labour.
posted by susiswimmer at 3:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [120 favorites]
Before my husband died, our marriage was an epic seven year war on just these issues. We were working on it from both sides and things were getting so much better by the time he died, but still not quite there...
One of the things I was no longer doing was keeping a list and ever so gently reminding him of tasks he needed to do. He was supposed to suffer the consequences of things not getting done.
Item 1 found on desk after his death: life insurance policy executed by me six weeks previously. Not executed by him or sent in with the policy payment and therefore not effective.
Item 2 found in drawer after his death: life insurance policy previously obtained by his parents, which his father and I had both done the paperwork to change the beneficiary two years previously, but which hadn't been submitted by him.
Shit.
And the work we had done didn't extend to immediate family, so as a widow suddenly at 34 I was expected to manage everyone else's feelings. (Those that actually gave a shit about my feelings I still treasure dearly. But they were appallingly few and far between.)
Here are some gems:
-my mother told me I wasn't being understanding enough of her pain and that I needed to be more considerate of her because I was doing so well (mind you, being 'considerate' of her meant undoing all of the things that were helping me heal and letting her run my life)
-MIL prepares a list of all the awesome things my husband had done. Literally every single one was something I had either done myself or pressed him to do. I didn't say anything.
-MIL told me she didn't need to see her own therapist because I should just call her every day.
-FIL told me that if I had been a better wife and more focused on my husbands needs (this is specifically related to career choices) that my husband wouldn't have died.
-BIL told me that he was treating me just as a woman in my position should expect to be treated and that I wasn't supportive enough.
My parents are out of my life until my mother actually puts in the work with a therapist to heal. I won't and cannot do it for her. I basically haven't heard from my parents in more than two years.
The in-laws I just stopped putting in the high levels of emotional labour they expected me to do to benefit them (while I was trying to do my own intense emotional labour of healing) and they faded out. I have since heard from others that this is apparently my fault.
It has been three years to the day. I'd really like to date again, but I'm terrified. Terrified of having to do the emotional labor of managing some new guys feelings through: (1) I'm a widow, but that's ok (2) I'm estranged from both families and that was the best choice for me (3) (advanced practice!) I expect you to pull your weight on emotional and domestic labour and actually be a feminist. And that if I by some miracle make it through those steps intact that new guy will then die too. Which fuck that.
So I am unsurprisingly single because I am so done with doing the emotional labour.
posted by susiswimmer at 3:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [120 favorites]
women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"
Well, it's like Simon Baron-Cohen says, if someone has the "extreme male brain", they're "systematizers" who are great at science and engineering, but if they have "extreme female brain," they're naturals at leadership. Ha ha, just kidding. He said that they can be "wonderfully caring" and thus persuade someone to fix their cars.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
Well, it's like Simon Baron-Cohen says, if someone has the "extreme male brain", they're "systematizers" who are great at science and engineering, but if they have "extreme female brain," they're naturals at leadership. Ha ha, just kidding. He said that they can be "wonderfully caring" and thus persuade someone to fix their cars.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2015 [18 favorites]
#FeminismThroughDadJokes
"Make me a sandwich." "*Poof* you're a sandwich!"
posted by mudpuppie at 3:59 PM on July 17, 2015 [116 favorites]
"Make me a sandwich." "*Poof* you're a sandwich!"
posted by mudpuppie at 3:59 PM on July 17, 2015 [116 favorites]
Next time someone won't leave me alone about why I date women and don't want to date men, I'm linking them to this thread.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 4:12 PM on July 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"
A lot of the problem seems to be its not called anything at all, since its not even noticed.
posted by biffa at 4:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
A lot of the problem seems to be its not called anything at all, since its not even noticed.
posted by biffa at 4:53 PM on July 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
My dad is in his mid-70s, and he claims one of his lifelong friends made his first sandwich last year, after his wife died. His friend had gone from his mother making his sandwiches to his wife making his sandwiches, for over 70 years. Over 70 years and not one self-made sandwich. Just a small thing, but...
what the hell dude
posted by sallybrown at 6:59 PM on July 17, 2015 [44 favorites]
what the hell dude
posted by sallybrown at 6:59 PM on July 17, 2015 [44 favorites]
sallybrown, my father has never in his life made a salad. His family and uni friends and my mother can attest to this. He has never in his life made a salad. The closest he gets is watching me chop it and criticising my piece size. He once cooked for six months while my mother was sick over thirty years ago, and he uses that to claim he shouldn't ever have to do any cooking again since he heroically cooked for two people for six whole months! (Imagine what my mother thinks of this.)
He'll eat vegetables, but he won't touch them to chop them or boil them either, and he will never under any circumstances help. Never. I've seen him sit at the kitchen counter taking up precious space with an enormous newspaper and refuse to move while my mother and I tried to cater for a twenty-person party of friends and relatives. If it can't be grilled, he won't do it either, and he'll only grill certain things besides, like steak and mushrooms. He also won't touch the steak if I cut it up since that makes it MY territory and not his since I've broken the sanctity of the t-bone or something, but if it's whole he'll cook a whole steak the way HE likes it and expect to be praised out the arse.
I have been genuinely and quietly concerned for YEARS that if my mother ever dies I will find him dead of scurvy. I mean, he can make sandwiches. If they make sandwich veggies that he can tip out onto the bread and then eat like that, then maybe he'll eat some veggies. Maybe?!?! I'm ... kidding, but nowhere near as much as I would like. :( :(
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:15 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
He'll eat vegetables, but he won't touch them to chop them or boil them either, and he will never under any circumstances help. Never. I've seen him sit at the kitchen counter taking up precious space with an enormous newspaper and refuse to move while my mother and I tried to cater for a twenty-person party of friends and relatives. If it can't be grilled, he won't do it either, and he'll only grill certain things besides, like steak and mushrooms. He also won't touch the steak if I cut it up since that makes it MY territory and not his since I've broken the sanctity of the t-bone or something, but if it's whole he'll cook a whole steak the way HE likes it and expect to be praised out the arse.
I have been genuinely and quietly concerned for YEARS that if my mother ever dies I will find him dead of scurvy. I mean, he can make sandwiches. If they make sandwich veggies that he can tip out onto the bread and then eat like that, then maybe he'll eat some veggies. Maybe?!?! I'm ... kidding, but nowhere near as much as I would like. :( :(
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:15 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
I just want to be clear: I love and adore my father to death, but he's been a fantastic model of the things that I will never in my life put up with ever again after he dies. Watching my mother quietly and silently put up with him treating her with such tiny thoughtless contempt as though it's a joke to treat himself like a hero for cooking for six months in a row (THIRTY YEARS AGO) when she gets so exhaustedly grateful when I cook and she gets to rest -- I mean, fuck him. FUCK HIM. Fuuuuuuuck hiiiiiim and dudes like him.
I love him, but: NEVER DOING THAT TO MYSELF.
(by which I mean, never dating men again)
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [39 favorites]
I love him, but: NEVER DOING THAT TO MYSELF.
(by which I mean, never dating men again)
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:19 PM on July 17, 2015 [39 favorites]
by which I mean, never dating men again
And as the children of Metafilter looked back on the last 60yrs of this heroic bastion of enlightened and enlightening conversation many wondered why some of the great contributors of old never married or had children, leaving the Metafilter Tribe without cousin relations to such luminaries such as E. Whitehall, NoraReed, Divinded by Radio, and many many others. "Thank goodness," they said, "we were conceived before the..." and their voices go quiet... "the great UEL-Thread of 2015. That's when so much changed." And there was silence for all the unborn and sadness for the unfathers who just couldn't get their emotional labor skills up to scratch in time.
Meanwhile, on an island far away, a large group of crones are dancing in the moonlight and high-fiving with the hands not holding the margaritas.
posted by Thella at 8:01 PM on July 17, 2015 [178 favorites]
And as the children of Metafilter looked back on the last 60yrs of this heroic bastion of enlightened and enlightening conversation many wondered why some of the great contributors of old never married or had children, leaving the Metafilter Tribe without cousin relations to such luminaries such as E. Whitehall, NoraReed, Divinded by Radio, and many many others. "Thank goodness," they said, "we were conceived before the..." and their voices go quiet... "the great UEL-Thread of 2015. That's when so much changed." And there was silence for all the unborn and sadness for the unfathers who just couldn't get their emotional labor skills up to scratch in time.
Meanwhile, on an island far away, a large group of crones are dancing in the moonlight and high-fiving with the hands not holding the margaritas.
posted by Thella at 8:01 PM on July 17, 2015 [178 favorites]
Yeah . . . my dad, as far as I can tell, decided to never actually figure out how to wash his own hair. I mean, he must have done SOMETHING during those years in Burma in WWII, but when I was growing up (only girl with two brothers), part of my household work was to regularly show up when he summoned me to the laundry room sink, and scrub his head with Prell, and hand him the towel. And I mean, he was in his FORTIES at the time.
I will never stop admiring my mother, who grew up in the 20s/30s and who knew no world beyond the one where women's job is to care for the men, who was finally able to kick his ass to the curb and construct her own life, for the little time she had before she died.
posted by Kat Allison at 8:02 PM on July 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
I will never stop admiring my mother, who grew up in the 20s/30s and who knew no world beyond the one where women's job is to care for the men, who was finally able to kick his ass to the curb and construct her own life, for the little time she had before she died.
posted by Kat Allison at 8:02 PM on July 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
This thread is fantastic, and I'd like to add my story.
I 'm a cishet woman. I'm forty-six and am finally in a relationship with someone where we care for each other, actively work to improve each other's lives and do an equal share of the emotional labor. My partner is my cishet woman best friend. I really can't explain how amazing our friendship is and sometimes feel sad that we both believe that it would be impossible to have anything like it with a romantic/sexual partner.
We're actually considering getting married because we each want to ensure that the other is taken care of in our old age.
posted by 1066 at 8:32 PM on July 17, 2015 [71 favorites]
I 'm a cishet woman. I'm forty-six and am finally in a relationship with someone where we care for each other, actively work to improve each other's lives and do an equal share of the emotional labor. My partner is my cishet woman best friend. I really can't explain how amazing our friendship is and sometimes feel sad that we both believe that it would be impossible to have anything like it with a romantic/sexual partner.
We're actually considering getting married because we each want to ensure that the other is taken care of in our old age.
posted by 1066 at 8:32 PM on July 17, 2015 [71 favorites]
I am finally reading the study, thanks to sockermom, and wanted to share several parts of it.
Among the questions for couples: "[Using a 7-point scale (1 = partner does all, 4 = both about equal, 7 = self does all),] write the number that best shows who does what now in the left column. On the right side, please write in the number that best shows which way of sharing would suit yourself best.
Emotional Work
1. Setting and enforcing standards for child(ren)’s behavior
2. Giving emotional support to your child(ren): being understanding, listening, comforting
3. Helping partner with problems, advising
4. Helping child(ren) with problems, advising
5. Doing things to improve or maintain your relationship
6. Giving emotional support to partner: being understanding, listening, comforting"
"...Emotional work, however, is less readily transferred or exchanged. It is specific to relationships, defined largely in terms of an individual’s emotional needs, so paying someone else to do it undermines the premise of care and mutuality. Women could “cut back” on emotional work, but if this does not induce husbands to increase their inputs (and it is hard to see how it would), they face the possibility that no one will do it (Thompson, 1993)."
From the discussion:
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:10 PM on July 17, 2015 [62 favorites]
Among the questions for couples: "[Using a 7-point scale (1 = partner does all, 4 = both about equal, 7 = self does all),] write the number that best shows who does what now in the left column. On the right side, please write in the number that best shows which way of sharing would suit yourself best.
Emotional Work
1. Setting and enforcing standards for child(ren)’s behavior
2. Giving emotional support to your child(ren): being understanding, listening, comforting
3. Helping partner with problems, advising
4. Helping child(ren) with problems, advising
5. Doing things to improve or maintain your relationship
6. Giving emotional support to partner: being understanding, listening, comforting"
"...Emotional work, however, is less readily transferred or exchanged. It is specific to relationships, defined largely in terms of an individual’s emotional needs, so paying someone else to do it undermines the premise of care and mutuality. Women could “cut back” on emotional work, but if this does not induce husbands to increase their inputs (and it is hard to see how it would), they face the possibility that no one will do it (Thompson, 1993)."
From the discussion:
Emotional work is demanding and can affect the emotions of those who do it (Strazdins, 2002). The gender imbalance in emotional work is a key to its health consequences because it erodes women’s experience of their marriages as caring. When women do more emotional work than men, it diminishes their sense of being loved and increases their feeling of conflict in the marriage, compromising the supportive and health protective functions of marriage. This in turn has consequences for women’s psychological health, placing them at increased risk of depression. Not only does a gender imbalance in emotional work create material disadvantages for women (England & Farkas, 1986), it affects their health.If men do not recognize the existence of emotional work, let alone its significance ... that suggests that men and women are having fundamentally different experiences of their partnerships. You can argue about the whys--but the fact of the imbalance can make women ill. There is a reason why "exhaustion" and "exhausting" have come up so often in this discussion.
posted by MonkeyToes at 9:10 PM on July 17, 2015 [62 favorites]
I have learned a lot from reading the stories upthread, so thank you, everyone.
Among other things, this thread has made me realize why my job often frustrates me: there's a huge amount of emotional labor involved in getting even the simplest tasks done. (And my workplace has a sort of macho culture that isn't big on acknowledging that kind of work.) Today my boss didn't understand why I couldn't just get approval for a request, and I was having trouble articulating the reason. But now I think it's because of the emotional labor. While filling out a request form is stupidly simple, I also had to expend a lot of time and energy coaxing two different sets of people into doing things that are a basic part of their job description.
I have to engage in this kind of maneuvering pretty frequently in my workplace. I definitely don't want to be rude or anything, but having to constantly be empathetic and placatory when asking for routine things is totally exhausting, at least for this introvert.
Also, barchan's comment about "leadership" versus "teamwork" resonates with me a hundred percent. I had a high school teacher who told me I'd never be a leader. Good thing I figured out how to engage in teamwork, via running group projects and supervising people! Ugh.
posted by ferret branca at 9:11 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Among other things, this thread has made me realize why my job often frustrates me: there's a huge amount of emotional labor involved in getting even the simplest tasks done. (And my workplace has a sort of macho culture that isn't big on acknowledging that kind of work.) Today my boss didn't understand why I couldn't just get approval for a request, and I was having trouble articulating the reason. But now I think it's because of the emotional labor. While filling out a request form is stupidly simple, I also had to expend a lot of time and energy coaxing two different sets of people into doing things that are a basic part of their job description.
I have to engage in this kind of maneuvering pretty frequently in my workplace. I definitely don't want to be rude or anything, but having to constantly be empathetic and placatory when asking for routine things is totally exhausting, at least for this introvert.
Also, barchan's comment about "leadership" versus "teamwork" resonates with me a hundred percent. I had a high school teacher who told me I'd never be a leader. Good thing I figured out how to engage in teamwork, via running group projects and supervising people! Ugh.
posted by ferret branca at 9:11 PM on July 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
From Monkeytoes's article, above:
..
And again:
And how fucked up is it that I feel guilty for letting this dynamic emerge, both because I'm the one who was supposed to know better (you know, the "emotionally intelligent" one,) and because I've failed to be the sort of take-no-bullshit, ferocious femme who doesn't let herself get treated like a doormat?
posted by Harrogatha Christie at 11:27 PM on July 17, 2015 [46 favorites]
..
.Quantitative and qualitative data from a sample of 102 couples with young children show that the gender imbalance affected women’s, but not men’s, experience of love and conflict in their marriage. Through this erosion of the marriage, the gender imbalance posed a health risk to women and helped explain gender differences in psychological distress. Couples preserved a sense of mutuality by accounting for the gender imbalance as something beyond men’s choice or control, or in terms of women’s excess emotional needs, thus entrenching gender differences in the performance and consequences of emotional work.
And again:
. . . When women do more emotional work than men, it diminishes their sense of being loved and increases their feeling of conflict in the marriage, compromising the supportive and health protective functions of marriage. This in turn has consequences for women’s psychological health, placing them at increased risk of depression. Not only does a gender imbalance in emotional work create material disadvantages for women (England & Farkas, 1986), it affects their health.Christ, this is actually making me nauseous with recognition.
And how fucked up is it that I feel guilty for letting this dynamic emerge, both because I'm the one who was supposed to know better (you know, the "emotionally intelligent" one,) and because I've failed to be the sort of take-no-bullshit, ferocious femme who doesn't let herself get treated like a doormat?
posted by Harrogatha Christie at 11:27 PM on July 17, 2015 [46 favorites]
Damn. I. Just. Damn.
All The Feels.
On home: three of us are far to the introvert side of the scale. My husband is the youngest of six by ten years and basically free range. He doesn't really understand eating regular dinners with the rest of the family except maybe once or twice a week because it's just not on his radar as a thing and after 20 years of marriage, I gave up fighting that and many other battles (good night kisses when he trundles off to bed five hours before me were an early casualty as well).The youngest daughter is my feely extrovert who actively seeks out connection. My oldest is like living in A Glass Menagerie, which is to say very similar to me at that age. We're a strange feral bunch. My mother is an extrovert and however she came to be this way is very good at emotional labor work and genuinely enjoys the connections it has brought her. I can do the work but it's exhausting and too goddamn much of it is spent at work.
Which brings me to work: Another terrible thing about emotional labor at work is that women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership".
This thread made me realize that with our business unit's reorg, I lost out on promotion because of this perception. I was jettisoned back to front line management to "build a new team" (which granted has strong interest from a VP, but was also a misguided assumption that it would make me happy) while I watched dude who couldn't pull his head out from his own siloed team take on his team and my team (all of which used to be mine but I to wasn't allowed put any structure in to support me so set up to fail much?) because my current boss has no clue what women in leadership roles look like. I've jokingly-not-jokingly said he needs me to be around to be his wife (NOT TO HIM) and remind him that he needs to schedule team mtgs with his managers and remind him of basic shit that needs to happen at his level and.... Fuuuuuuu. My boss is my career limiting move. I stopped doing a bunch of that emotional labor for him (he tells me I'm right and ignores the recommendation). Started focusing it on the stuff I need to do and he and his boss are acting all surprised and shit that I'm getting stuff done like I was put in place to do and... I'm supposed to feel good about this role that literally erases my last six years of professional growth, even if it is something on the VP's radar, and even if it is something I'm good at, because... Why exactly? There is no growth opportunity in this role beyond this role for me. In no way does this help me get to the next level, it proves, again, that I can do the same work I've been doing for 12 years. And. I. Am. Furious. Like social anxiety me (that nonetheless was successfully dealing and doing a damn fine job of climbing the career ladder I want to climb) got myself a therapist levels of cannot fucking deal.
I can deal with feral family and I'm as feral as they, and all things considered, I think my husband and I balance our weaknesses and strengths out pretty ok. But this work bullshit just is nope all over.
And I couldn't do the argument in my head thing because three hours into reading this thread, my sweet husband comes upstairs and says, " you know, when I die, if someone besides you goes through all the horror books I've got, they're going to be so disturbed... Because scattered through them are all these shmoopy cards and letters from you." He says doesn't really care about cards and we're pretty random about when we give them to each other, but I'm pretty sure he's never thrown away anything I've written to him and I know he goes back and reads them because he'll come upstairs and tell me stuff in them.
Guess this might be what I'm talking with my therapist about on Monday...
posted by susanbeeswax at 11:55 PM on July 17, 2015 [25 favorites]
All The Feels.
On home: three of us are far to the introvert side of the scale. My husband is the youngest of six by ten years and basically free range. He doesn't really understand eating regular dinners with the rest of the family except maybe once or twice a week because it's just not on his radar as a thing and after 20 years of marriage, I gave up fighting that and many other battles (good night kisses when he trundles off to bed five hours before me were an early casualty as well).The youngest daughter is my feely extrovert who actively seeks out connection. My oldest is like living in A Glass Menagerie, which is to say very similar to me at that age. We're a strange feral bunch. My mother is an extrovert and however she came to be this way is very good at emotional labor work and genuinely enjoys the connections it has brought her. I can do the work but it's exhausting and too goddamn much of it is spent at work.
Which brings me to work: Another terrible thing about emotional labor at work is that women "stepping up" to get things done is not just expected and unappreciated, it's called "teamwork"; but when guys do it, it's called "leadership".
This thread made me realize that with our business unit's reorg, I lost out on promotion because of this perception. I was jettisoned back to front line management to "build a new team" (which granted has strong interest from a VP, but was also a misguided assumption that it would make me happy) while I watched dude who couldn't pull his head out from his own siloed team take on his team and my team (all of which used to be mine but I to wasn't allowed put any structure in to support me so set up to fail much?) because my current boss has no clue what women in leadership roles look like. I've jokingly-not-jokingly said he needs me to be around to be his wife (NOT TO HIM) and remind him that he needs to schedule team mtgs with his managers and remind him of basic shit that needs to happen at his level and.... Fuuuuuuu. My boss is my career limiting move. I stopped doing a bunch of that emotional labor for him (he tells me I'm right and ignores the recommendation). Started focusing it on the stuff I need to do and he and his boss are acting all surprised and shit that I'm getting stuff done like I was put in place to do and... I'm supposed to feel good about this role that literally erases my last six years of professional growth, even if it is something on the VP's radar, and even if it is something I'm good at, because... Why exactly? There is no growth opportunity in this role beyond this role for me. In no way does this help me get to the next level, it proves, again, that I can do the same work I've been doing for 12 years. And. I. Am. Furious. Like social anxiety me (that nonetheless was successfully dealing and doing a damn fine job of climbing the career ladder I want to climb) got myself a therapist levels of cannot fucking deal.
I can deal with feral family and I'm as feral as they, and all things considered, I think my husband and I balance our weaknesses and strengths out pretty ok. But this work bullshit just is nope all over.
And I couldn't do the argument in my head thing because three hours into reading this thread, my sweet husband comes upstairs and says, " you know, when I die, if someone besides you goes through all the horror books I've got, they're going to be so disturbed... Because scattered through them are all these shmoopy cards and letters from you." He says doesn't really care about cards and we're pretty random about when we give them to each other, but I'm pretty sure he's never thrown away anything I've written to him and I know he goes back and reads them because he'll come upstairs and tell me stuff in them.
Guess this might be what I'm talking with my therapist about on Monday...
posted by susanbeeswax at 11:55 PM on July 17, 2015 [25 favorites]
So I've been following this thread all week, taking notes, looking for opportunities to step up. We just moved to the Bay Area, near my wife's extended family, and I've been bugging her to ask them over. They helped us get settled in when we first moved, after all. Tonight after a glass of wine I said to my wife, "So. Why don't you give me your aunt's cella, and I'll set up a dinner or something?"
"Stay away from my family."
"Okay!"
Later. "I want to control how close my aunts and my cousins get, not you. Okay?"
"Yep."
So. Ask first, fellas!
posted by notyou at 12:00 AM on July 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Stay away from my family."
"Okay!"
Later. "I want to control how close my aunts and my cousins get, not you. Okay?"
"Yep."
So. Ask first, fellas!
posted by notyou at 12:00 AM on July 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Notyou, this is literally not you, but that sounds more complex than "I offered to do a nice thing of emotional labor and my wife said NO." Like - "hey wife, instead of me asking you to set up dinner with your family, would it be helpful if I took over the scheduling and planning and talked directly with them? You can just give me the times and dates that work for you, and I'll co-ordinate so you don't have to have that on your plate too."
My ex has a pattern of making offers for emotional labor that will create havoc. I used to think it was ineptitude, now I think it's a mix of deliberate wilful ignorance and sabotaging so I will take over. He would make plans with people I didn't like or who had harmed me and my children, without checking ahead with me because then I would be trapped into a draining and difficult situation socially, and then act hurt if I refused or said it was an awful experience, because hey, he MADE the effort and I was ungrateful.
So sure ask first. But ask with clarity and comprehension and listen to her answer in full. Think about what you're really offering.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:30 AM on July 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
My ex has a pattern of making offers for emotional labor that will create havoc. I used to think it was ineptitude, now I think it's a mix of deliberate wilful ignorance and sabotaging so I will take over. He would make plans with people I didn't like or who had harmed me and my children, without checking ahead with me because then I would be trapped into a draining and difficult situation socially, and then act hurt if I refused or said it was an awful experience, because hey, he MADE the effort and I was ungrateful.
So sure ask first. But ask with clarity and comprehension and listen to her answer in full. Think about what you're really offering.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:30 AM on July 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
The thing I learned, dorothyisunderwood, is that the scheduling is the least of it. There are realms of understanding that I don't currently have access to, because I haven't asked, or because I haven't looked carefully enough, or most likely, both.
posted by notyou at 12:40 AM on July 18, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by notyou at 12:40 AM on July 18, 2015 [27 favorites]
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if a lot of these dudes never get that frisson of anticipatory joy from doing a tiny thing that will just perfectly improve the life of a beloved person... and if so, that makes me sad.
I started making a Christmas stocking for my mom a few years ago, and it's become the delight of my Christmas. She always does stockings for the rest of us, and it bugged me how hers was always empty because (of course) she didn't make one for herself. The first year I roped my siblings into it; the second year I got disorganized and so did it all myself; this year I think I'm going to try to get the sibs into it again. My step-dad always pays some money into it, though, and works with me to get her away from the stockings so that I can fill hers up without her noticing and the glee we both get from the subterfuge is enormous.
I was thinking of this in terms of some friends where I'm essentially playing chairperson for an endeavor they're doing together. They all get prickly at each other if they disagree too much, but I can step in and organize things - and one of the steps I added this time (in part as a response to this thread) was a "check in" so everyone could say how they were feeling and what was going on in their lives - moods which could affect the meeting. I think it really set the stage for a productive meeting because everyone was kind of cranky or upset about something (except for me) so we all put in extra effort to be kind.
I'm wondering if one of the effects of Second Wave feminism and the whole focus of "act more male for more power" has led to some of the disconnections in contemporary culture along with reinforcing the devaluing of this sort of work. We were talking about at work (I'm a therapist/case manager) how the relationship between clinician and client is often not taken into account by the people in charge of setting the regulations organization and rules, and how in many cases we have clients who are doing well who would decompensate rapidly if they lost that crucial relationship and had to start over from scratch. I've talked about it with clients as well, as many of them have to go through the hard work of remaking relationships over and over again as clinicians leave.
I was also wondering how much this tied into the "educate yourself" aspects of social justice work. I keep running into this fundamental conflict between the people who have power, and thus no need or desire to educate themselves about those without power, and how when errors are brought up or critiques are made the conversation is quickly bent towards "stop making me feel bad" even if the critique was not personal. Given some preliminary research that the higher in social order one is the less empathetic one tends to be, I'm wondering if this isn't all of a piece. There seems to be a fundamental issue in social justice which can be boiled down to "I don't really thing members of X group are people with internal experiences I should think about" that we're stubbing our toes on over, and over, and over again - and it seems to be tied up in the empathy and respect of this sort of emotional/love work.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:32 AM on July 18, 2015 [43 favorites]
I started making a Christmas stocking for my mom a few years ago, and it's become the delight of my Christmas. She always does stockings for the rest of us, and it bugged me how hers was always empty because (of course) she didn't make one for herself. The first year I roped my siblings into it; the second year I got disorganized and so did it all myself; this year I think I'm going to try to get the sibs into it again. My step-dad always pays some money into it, though, and works with me to get her away from the stockings so that I can fill hers up without her noticing and the glee we both get from the subterfuge is enormous.
I was thinking of this in terms of some friends where I'm essentially playing chairperson for an endeavor they're doing together. They all get prickly at each other if they disagree too much, but I can step in and organize things - and one of the steps I added this time (in part as a response to this thread) was a "check in" so everyone could say how they were feeling and what was going on in their lives - moods which could affect the meeting. I think it really set the stage for a productive meeting because everyone was kind of cranky or upset about something (except for me) so we all put in extra effort to be kind.
I'm wondering if one of the effects of Second Wave feminism and the whole focus of "act more male for more power" has led to some of the disconnections in contemporary culture along with reinforcing the devaluing of this sort of work. We were talking about at work (I'm a therapist/case manager) how the relationship between clinician and client is often not taken into account by the people in charge of setting the regulations organization and rules, and how in many cases we have clients who are doing well who would decompensate rapidly if they lost that crucial relationship and had to start over from scratch. I've talked about it with clients as well, as many of them have to go through the hard work of remaking relationships over and over again as clinicians leave.
I was also wondering how much this tied into the "educate yourself" aspects of social justice work. I keep running into this fundamental conflict between the people who have power, and thus no need or desire to educate themselves about those without power, and how when errors are brought up or critiques are made the conversation is quickly bent towards "stop making me feel bad" even if the critique was not personal. Given some preliminary research that the higher in social order one is the less empathetic one tends to be, I'm wondering if this isn't all of a piece. There seems to be a fundamental issue in social justice which can be boiled down to "I don't really thing members of X group are people with internal experiences I should think about" that we're stubbing our toes on over, and over, and over again - and it seems to be tied up in the empathy and respect of this sort of emotional/love work.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:32 AM on July 18, 2015 [43 favorites]
Meanwhile, on an island far away, a large group of crones are dancing in the moonlight and high-fiving with the hands not holding the margaritas.
i hope there are also daquiris
posted by NoraReed at 1:34 AM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
i hope there are also daquiris
posted by NoraReed at 1:34 AM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
All the love and wonder forever for this thread. I have been greedily eating it all up for days now, and don't know where to start with the gratitude. Thank you, amazing mefites.
Also, this island of crones, where do i send my application?
posted by sic friat crustulum at 3:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
Also, this island of crones, where do i send my application?
posted by sic friat crustulum at 3:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
with the hands not holding the margaritas.
i hope there are also daquiris
Why shouldn't they all get good drinks?
posted by phearlez at 4:29 AM on July 18, 2015
i hope there are also daquiris
Why shouldn't they all get good drinks?
posted by phearlez at 4:29 AM on July 18, 2015
I am working my way through Deoridhe's comment, but particularly this and this:
when errors are brought up or critiques are made the conversation is quickly bent towards "stop making me feel bad"
"I don't really thing members of X group are people with internal experiences I should think about"
The quick bend *does* something. It's a rhetorical jump toward steering the conversation along a particular line of certainty, an alleviation of discomfort, and a foreclosing of any other possible responses, such as quiet self-examination, or articulated empathy, or recognition that this is a real dynamic for others that one has never known existed. The quick bend is a continuation of the refusal to see how it is for someone else. It comes across as dismissive and defensive, and as a rejection of a good faith effort to explain a subjective experience.
Your momentary discomfort and recognizing my humanity puts us on more congruent terms of discussion. As long as your first and only response is #notallmen, you are re-creating the dynamic that I am trying to explain to you. Believe me. Actively process what I say. Make listening, empathy, and self-examination options in responding before resorting to "But I don't do that." See whether it makes a difference to the shape of the subsequent conversation.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:11 AM on July 18, 2015 [42 favorites]
when errors are brought up or critiques are made the conversation is quickly bent towards "stop making me feel bad"
"I don't really thing members of X group are people with internal experiences I should think about"
The quick bend *does* something. It's a rhetorical jump toward steering the conversation along a particular line of certainty, an alleviation of discomfort, and a foreclosing of any other possible responses, such as quiet self-examination, or articulated empathy, or recognition that this is a real dynamic for others that one has never known existed. The quick bend is a continuation of the refusal to see how it is for someone else. It comes across as dismissive and defensive, and as a rejection of a good faith effort to explain a subjective experience.
Your momentary discomfort and recognizing my humanity puts us on more congruent terms of discussion. As long as your first and only response is #notallmen, you are re-creating the dynamic that I am trying to explain to you. Believe me. Actively process what I say. Make listening, empathy, and self-examination options in responding before resorting to "But I don't do that." See whether it makes a difference to the shape of the subsequent conversation.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:11 AM on July 18, 2015 [42 favorites]
Shout out to the mods who I sure are engaging in some significant emotional labor tied up with monitoring this thread, which has been a wonderful conversation and an exemplary example of why the best $5 I ever spent was on MetaFilter.
Several months ago, in one of those "How to be a feminist ally if you're a man in a hetero relationship" lists making the rounds, it mentioned something like "Make your own doctor's appointments so your partner doesn't have to. Men routinely don't do this, and it not only sucks to make a woman step up, but men skipping out on preventive health care has ripple effects if it means you end up unhealthy and less able to pull their share of domestic labor around the house than if you had just taken your doctor's healthy living advice in the first place!"
I think about this a lot in the context of how women and men age differently -- there are tons of studies that show women tend to age in a more healthful way because they are so practiced at maintaining social networks. Men tend to rely on their partners for social networks, and if they divorce/she dies, he often has very few people in his network because he didn't do his share of lifting to create a social network. I know a lot of older men who have great friends from college/childhood, but seem to have difficulty creating networks as they move through time.
I see this occasionally with my own father -- I am an only child (daughter) of an aging father who lives alone. My dad is actually pretty feminist for being on the older side of 80, and is pretty respectful of my schedule and personal boundaries I put in place re: what I am willing and not willing to do on his behalf. But it is occasionally emotionally exhausting to think I am his one main source of "connection" to the world around him. He attends a great church where he likes most of the people, but he occasionally gets grumpy with it for petty reasons and thinks about quitting, and I try to do everything in my power to keep him going - for his sake, as well as my own. He needs more outlets than just me. He has some solid buddies he knows from his college/army days and regularly emails with them. That makes me glad, too... it's just too bad they're not local, because I know how much joy that would bring him.
posted by mostly vowels at 5:11 AM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
Several months ago, in one of those "How to be a feminist ally if you're a man in a hetero relationship" lists making the rounds, it mentioned something like "Make your own doctor's appointments so your partner doesn't have to. Men routinely don't do this, and it not only sucks to make a woman step up, but men skipping out on preventive health care has ripple effects if it means you end up unhealthy and less able to pull their share of domestic labor around the house than if you had just taken your doctor's healthy living advice in the first place!"
I think about this a lot in the context of how women and men age differently -- there are tons of studies that show women tend to age in a more healthful way because they are so practiced at maintaining social networks. Men tend to rely on their partners for social networks, and if they divorce/she dies, he often has very few people in his network because he didn't do his share of lifting to create a social network. I know a lot of older men who have great friends from college/childhood, but seem to have difficulty creating networks as they move through time.
I see this occasionally with my own father -- I am an only child (daughter) of an aging father who lives alone. My dad is actually pretty feminist for being on the older side of 80, and is pretty respectful of my schedule and personal boundaries I put in place re: what I am willing and not willing to do on his behalf. But it is occasionally emotionally exhausting to think I am his one main source of "connection" to the world around him. He attends a great church where he likes most of the people, but he occasionally gets grumpy with it for petty reasons and thinks about quitting, and I try to do everything in my power to keep him going - for his sake, as well as my own. He needs more outlets than just me. He has some solid buddies he knows from his college/army days and regularly emails with them. That makes me glad, too... it's just too bad they're not local, because I know how much joy that would bring him.
posted by mostly vowels at 5:11 AM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
Meanwhile, on an island far away, a large group of crones are dancing in the moonlight and high-fiving with the hands not holding the margaritas.
Booking my next vacation for CroNatia. Better lay in a supply of CronRona beer.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:17 AM on July 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
Booking my next vacation for CroNatia. Better lay in a supply of CronRona beer.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:17 AM on July 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
Surely Cronenbourg?
posted by biffa at 5:37 AM on July 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by biffa at 5:37 AM on July 18, 2015 [17 favorites]
After some time to think about all of this, it honestly shocks me that this is an accepted norm for straight people. My personal stories about this - I was raised by straight people. My mom raised me to be a people pleaser and to take on emotional labor. I was very aware that she wasn't giving my brother the same socialization and I was pissed about it.
My parents - and every other adult in my life - told me that I would grow up and marry a man and have children, and no alternatives were ever discussed. Looking around me, I never thought the married women I knew seemed happy. They seemed stressed, and like they did more work than the men. I didn't get why the men didn't clean up after holiday meals, and asking about it didn't get me any real answers.
When the light finally came on that I'm attracted to women, it was an intense relief. Not only did all the ways I had been uncomfortable with the pressure from my peers to talk about boys! make sense, but I knew I didn't have to marry a man and have children and spend my life giving up the things I actually wanted to do to clean up after people who didn't even notice it and didn't care if I was happy.
I'm not a kinsey 6, but dating women for me is the norm so when I've tried dating (cis) men I've been acutely aware of how much they were unwilling to do emotional labor and have seen this unwillingness as a failure to be invested in the relationship or as disinterest in me. If you care about someone, you care about how they're doing and you're aware of what you're asking from them. Reading people's accounts here of men who can't be bothered to even be aware of their emotional labor and then make extensive apologies - "he's really got other great qualities! I swear I'm happy!" - is intensely sad to me. I may be unusual in that I'd rather be alone than deal with this crap, but that's where I am. I want my personal life to offer me solace from the strains of this world, from, among other things, sexism and homophobia, and the idea of coming home from my already more than full time job to an adult who is supposed to be a partner but instead behaves like a child, or who wants a cookie when he understands something basic about my experiences and the expectations placed on me - no. Just no. I honestly don't get the appeal.
I'm not going to say that dating women is all sunshine and roses especially given the ways our culture is about LGBT folks, but I'd rather have a relationship where my partner and I fight oppression together than one where sexism is constantly played out in my home, via unequal division of emotional labor or just the standard cultural sexism most men absorb.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:16 AM on July 18, 2015 [81 favorites]
My parents - and every other adult in my life - told me that I would grow up and marry a man and have children, and no alternatives were ever discussed. Looking around me, I never thought the married women I knew seemed happy. They seemed stressed, and like they did more work than the men. I didn't get why the men didn't clean up after holiday meals, and asking about it didn't get me any real answers.
When the light finally came on that I'm attracted to women, it was an intense relief. Not only did all the ways I had been uncomfortable with the pressure from my peers to talk about boys! make sense, but I knew I didn't have to marry a man and have children and spend my life giving up the things I actually wanted to do to clean up after people who didn't even notice it and didn't care if I was happy.
I'm not a kinsey 6, but dating women for me is the norm so when I've tried dating (cis) men I've been acutely aware of how much they were unwilling to do emotional labor and have seen this unwillingness as a failure to be invested in the relationship or as disinterest in me. If you care about someone, you care about how they're doing and you're aware of what you're asking from them. Reading people's accounts here of men who can't be bothered to even be aware of their emotional labor and then make extensive apologies - "he's really got other great qualities! I swear I'm happy!" - is intensely sad to me. I may be unusual in that I'd rather be alone than deal with this crap, but that's where I am. I want my personal life to offer me solace from the strains of this world, from, among other things, sexism and homophobia, and the idea of coming home from my already more than full time job to an adult who is supposed to be a partner but instead behaves like a child, or who wants a cookie when he understands something basic about my experiences and the expectations placed on me - no. Just no. I honestly don't get the appeal.
I'm not going to say that dating women is all sunshine and roses especially given the ways our culture is about LGBT folks, but I'd rather have a relationship where my partner and I fight oppression together than one where sexism is constantly played out in my home, via unequal division of emotional labor or just the standard cultural sexism most men absorb.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:16 AM on July 18, 2015 [81 favorites]
We were talking about at work (I'm a therapist/case manager) how the relationship between clinician and client is often not taken into account by the people in charge of setting the regulations organization and rules, and how in many cases we have clients who are doing well who would decompensate rapidly if they lost that crucial relationship and had to start over from scratch. I've talked about it with clients as well, as many of them have to go through the hard work of remaking relationships over and over again as clinicians leave.
Deoridhe, we had a very similar conversation at my workplace, when my manager basically wanted to get rid of having one assigned case manager per client and turn it into more of a "Who's good at whatever the client's current issue is?" issue-management thing. And we had just all attended (except, notably, my manager) a forum in which former clients all identified their ongoing relationships with their doctors and case managers as being the most significant component of their recovery process and (as you mentioned) cited case-manager turnover as causing turmoil.
It's ridiculous when mental-health professionals are ignoring the importance of relationships.
posted by jaguar at 8:03 AM on July 18, 2015 [36 favorites]
Deoridhe, we had a very similar conversation at my workplace, when my manager basically wanted to get rid of having one assigned case manager per client and turn it into more of a "Who's good at whatever the client's current issue is?" issue-management thing. And we had just all attended (except, notably, my manager) a forum in which former clients all identified their ongoing relationships with their doctors and case managers as being the most significant component of their recovery process and (as you mentioned) cited case-manager turnover as causing turmoil.
It's ridiculous when mental-health professionals are ignoring the importance of relationships.
posted by jaguar at 8:03 AM on July 18, 2015 [36 favorites]
It's ridiculous when mental-health professionals are ignoring the importance of relationships.
I've wondered before if a lot of people who prefer alternative medicine practices do so, at least partially, because alternative medicine practitioners do more emotional labor than conventional medical professionals.
posted by Green With You at 8:57 AM on July 18, 2015 [58 favorites]
I've wondered before if a lot of people who prefer alternative medicine practices do so, at least partially, because alternative medicine practitioners do more emotional labor than conventional medical professionals.
posted by Green With You at 8:57 AM on July 18, 2015 [58 favorites]
It's ridiculous when mental-health professionals are ignoring the importance of relationships.
I definitely agree. But, I want to throw out that many western cultures seem to encourage men to believe that they should barely need relationships (even if they do). That they should strive to be lone wolves or tough cowboys or something.
When we teach women "you must nurture this list of relationships" are there messages taught to men that say "you mustn't nurture?"
posted by puddledork at 9:08 AM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I definitely agree. But, I want to throw out that many western cultures seem to encourage men to believe that they should barely need relationships (even if they do). That they should strive to be lone wolves or tough cowboys or something.
When we teach women "you must nurture this list of relationships" are there messages taught to men that say "you mustn't nurture?"
posted by puddledork at 9:08 AM on July 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Ultimately, in my experience, any woman's refusal to choose a restaurant is based on the often-correct suspicion that whatever choice you make will be wrong anyway, so let's just go where he wants to go, it makes things so much easier.
This contributed to the demise of my last actual relationship. What's worse than dating a guy who tells you to just pick a restaurant and then passive-aggressively picks apart all your choices while insisting he really doesn't care? A guy with an untreated eating disorder, who is aware of his disorder, but who also seems to feel that management of this very personal and delicate area of his life should fall to someone else and who then becomes slowly more and more emotionally withholding when you fail to read his mind and correctly guess what he really wants to eat for every meal that you're together. You know that thing about managing your own mental health, how you have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help anyone else with theirs? Looking back on that relationship, a lot of the time I felt like I was trying to draw oxygen from a mask with a broken strap, while also trying to strap a similarly broken mask on a recalcitrant ferret.
Anyway. Sorry that I won't be able to high-five everyone else on Crone Island all the time, because my hands will be devoted to drinks and tacos. We're still getting that taco bar, right?
posted by palomar at 10:04 AM on July 18, 2015 [56 favorites]
This contributed to the demise of my last actual relationship. What's worse than dating a guy who tells you to just pick a restaurant and then passive-aggressively picks apart all your choices while insisting he really doesn't care? A guy with an untreated eating disorder, who is aware of his disorder, but who also seems to feel that management of this very personal and delicate area of his life should fall to someone else and who then becomes slowly more and more emotionally withholding when you fail to read his mind and correctly guess what he really wants to eat for every meal that you're together. You know that thing about managing your own mental health, how you have to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help anyone else with theirs? Looking back on that relationship, a lot of the time I felt like I was trying to draw oxygen from a mask with a broken strap, while also trying to strap a similarly broken mask on a recalcitrant ferret.
Anyway. Sorry that I won't be able to high-five everyone else on Crone Island all the time, because my hands will be devoted to drinks and tacos. We're still getting that taco bar, right?
posted by palomar at 10:04 AM on July 18, 2015 [56 favorites]
For those of you who are dealing with the "oh shit, unpaid emotional labor has been the defining thread of my career" - ugh I am so with you. I think I first posted here two days ago and I'm STILL pissed. I was basically passed up for a promotion and that's why. "But you're in project support, what makes you think you would be a good leader?" ARRRRRRGGGHHHHHH.
ok.
So last summer, my husband and I were arguing about his lack of energy and his lack of doing something about his lack of energy, and the repercussions of said lack of energy. He knew he had issues, he can get up the energy to go game twice a week or online for hours at a time, for fuck's sake he can make a doctor's appointment and go to it. Seriously. And at one point in the discussion, he says:
"So what do you think I should do about it? What do you suggest?"
And I said, "I DON'T KNOW, I WASN'T PUT ON THIS EARTH SOLELY TO MAKE YOUR LIFE EASIER. FUCKING FIGURE IT OUT, YOU HAVE AN IQ OF 135, GOOGLE, AND REALLY GOOD HEALTHCARE BENEFITS. START USING ANY ONE OF THOSE THINGS!"
and it was like I'd thrown a glass of ice water in his face. He just stopped. And then went out to the patio for about 20 minutes. He came back in, called and made a doctor's appointment, and then started a load of laundry.
A year later, it is much better. He does the little surprise things, and bigger things like choosing all the colors for the inside of the house and cooking all the dinners. But I think that moment is going to stick with him for quite a while, if not forever. And it's so stupid that it got to that point.
But he still doesn't understand why I swear I will never get married again if he dies first or leaves. I saw that Gartner study and immediately understood why the majority of women said no to being married again and the majority of men couldn't wait to get married again. "Of course not," I thought. "THe societal expectation of being married as a guy means you don't have to manage your own shit, who WOULDN'T want that????"
Argh.
Also, threads like this - where you see men come in and act completely clueless - are why I (as a white person) shut the hell up and listen when people of color talk about race and racism. Listening is so much more important than talking when people of a background not yours are sharing what it's like to live as them on a daily basis. I have occasionally said to friends one-on-one, "I want you to know that I am silent because I am listening, and that I support you and what you have to say, but I am not going to comment because the conversation isn't about me. It's about you." Sometimes it's really not about YOU, except in what you can learn and apply from listening to other people's experiences.
This thread has given me so much. Thank you to all of you.
posted by RogueTech at 10:08 AM on July 18, 2015 [144 favorites]
ok.
So last summer, my husband and I were arguing about his lack of energy and his lack of doing something about his lack of energy, and the repercussions of said lack of energy. He knew he had issues, he can get up the energy to go game twice a week or online for hours at a time, for fuck's sake he can make a doctor's appointment and go to it. Seriously. And at one point in the discussion, he says:
"So what do you think I should do about it? What do you suggest?"
And I said, "I DON'T KNOW, I WASN'T PUT ON THIS EARTH SOLELY TO MAKE YOUR LIFE EASIER. FUCKING FIGURE IT OUT, YOU HAVE AN IQ OF 135, GOOGLE, AND REALLY GOOD HEALTHCARE BENEFITS. START USING ANY ONE OF THOSE THINGS!"
and it was like I'd thrown a glass of ice water in his face. He just stopped. And then went out to the patio for about 20 minutes. He came back in, called and made a doctor's appointment, and then started a load of laundry.
A year later, it is much better. He does the little surprise things, and bigger things like choosing all the colors for the inside of the house and cooking all the dinners. But I think that moment is going to stick with him for quite a while, if not forever. And it's so stupid that it got to that point.
But he still doesn't understand why I swear I will never get married again if he dies first or leaves. I saw that Gartner study and immediately understood why the majority of women said no to being married again and the majority of men couldn't wait to get married again. "Of course not," I thought. "THe societal expectation of being married as a guy means you don't have to manage your own shit, who WOULDN'T want that????"
Argh.
Also, threads like this - where you see men come in and act completely clueless - are why I (as a white person) shut the hell up and listen when people of color talk about race and racism. Listening is so much more important than talking when people of a background not yours are sharing what it's like to live as them on a daily basis. I have occasionally said to friends one-on-one, "I want you to know that I am silent because I am listening, and that I support you and what you have to say, but I am not going to comment because the conversation isn't about me. It's about you." Sometimes it's really not about YOU, except in what you can learn and apply from listening to other people's experiences.
This thread has given me so much. Thank you to all of you.
posted by RogueTech at 10:08 AM on July 18, 2015 [144 favorites]
I want to print out this entire thread and format it into a book to give to every person I know.
posted by dysh at 10:24 AM on July 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by dysh at 10:24 AM on July 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
dysh, please make the cover of this book a woman riding her nopetopus to Crone Island, where other happy women greet her with tacos, drinks, and high fives.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:53 AM on July 18, 2015 [80 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 10:53 AM on July 18, 2015 [80 favorites]
I'll bring amazingly delicious cheese with me to Crone Island.
posted by Jalliah at 11:01 AM on July 18, 2015 [34 favorites]
posted by Jalliah at 11:01 AM on July 18, 2015 [34 favorites]
I couldn't really put in enough time to grow the feminist discussion forum thingy I tried to start, but I definitely know now what it should have been called.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:12 AM on July 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 11:12 AM on July 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
My husband just asked me if I'd remembered to buy *my* father a present for his birthday tomorrow.
posted by Lucinda at 11:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Lucinda at 11:28 AM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm mostly a lurker, but I want to thank everyone for sharing your stories. There have been so many "yes, this!!" lightbulb moments about things I've experienced and observed. And for real, I've never before felt so close the other women of MeFi.
(Consider this my application for Crone Island, which sounds like an amazing place.)
posted by Salieri at 11:58 AM on July 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
(Consider this my application for Crone Island, which sounds like an amazing place.)
posted by Salieri at 11:58 AM on July 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
This thread is so wonderful! Thank you so much for it.
posted by SarahElizaP at 12:19 PM on July 18, 2015
posted by SarahElizaP at 12:19 PM on July 18, 2015
Crone Island: Cheese of the Patriarchy confiscated at entry.
posted by susiswimmer at 12:24 PM on July 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
posted by susiswimmer at 12:24 PM on July 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
This is a wonderful thread.
Although it contributed to some post-yoga rage yesterday:
After my class, a few folks were waiting in the lobby for the next class to begin. One man was partially blocking the cubbies where shoes are kept during class. I said "excuse me" to him and waited for him to move.
I, or any woman, would have apologized for being the way, and moved for me.
He laughed, said "oh, I'm right in the way" and did not move at all.
So, I awkwardly maneuvered around him to gather my things and left, fuming all the way home.
After reading this thread, lack of empathy and emotional labor were the first reasons I thought of for my expected reaction vs his reaction.
posted by natasha_k at 12:34 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Although it contributed to some post-yoga rage yesterday:
After my class, a few folks were waiting in the lobby for the next class to begin. One man was partially blocking the cubbies where shoes are kept during class. I said "excuse me" to him and waited for him to move.
I, or any woman, would have apologized for being the way, and moved for me.
He laughed, said "oh, I'm right in the way" and did not move at all.
So, I awkwardly maneuvered around him to gather my things and left, fuming all the way home.
After reading this thread, lack of empathy and emotional labor were the first reasons I thought of for my expected reaction vs his reaction.
posted by natasha_k at 12:34 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I apparently have a gift for mojitos, and I volunteer to keep the residents of Crone Island well-supplied.
Thanks for this thread, everyone. I appreciate the food for thought about how my relationships work in a number of spheres, the renewed appreciation for some outstanding men in my life, and the reminder to make sure the amazing friendships I have with women that feel effortless aren't because I'm not the one putting in the effort.
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:44 PM on July 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thanks for this thread, everyone. I appreciate the food for thought about how my relationships work in a number of spheres, the renewed appreciation for some outstanding men in my life, and the reminder to make sure the amazing friendships I have with women that feel effortless aren't because I'm not the one putting in the effort.
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:44 PM on July 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is such a great thread! Just as an aside, I've got the Kathleen Edward's song "Asking for Flowers" in my head right now, and wanted to share some of the lyrics....which are totally about emotional labor.
Asking for flowers
Is like asking you to be nice
Don't tell me you're too tired
10 years I've been working nights
Every pill I took in vain
Every meal for you I made
Every bill I went and paid
Every card I signed my name
Every time I poured my heart out
Every threat you made to move out
Every cruel word you let just slip out
Every cruel word you let just slip out
posted by aka burlap at 1:00 PM on July 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
Asking for flowers
Is like asking you to be nice
Don't tell me you're too tired
10 years I've been working nights
Every pill I took in vain
Every meal for you I made
Every bill I went and paid
Every card I signed my name
Every time I poured my heart out
Every threat you made to move out
Every cruel word you let just slip out
Every cruel word you let just slip out
posted by aka burlap at 1:00 PM on July 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
I want to print out this entire thread and format it into a book to give to every person I know.
So I was just walking down the street--well, oozing really; it's hot here today--about an hour ago to meet a friend. I ended up behind a late 20s/early 30s couple, one presenting male and the other presenting female. The part of the conversation I heard:
1: Want to go to $nicerestaurant for lunch?
2: ugh no
1: How about other $nicerestaurant?
2: ugh no
1: Oh, $decentrestaurant is near here, you said you wanted to try it
2: I don't want to go there
1: Fine let's go to $okayrestaurant then
2: no
(at this point we parted ways, until!)
An hour later I was walking back home, and saw the same couple.
Carrying McDonalds bags.
I was wishing for one of the crones to drop out of the sky with The Book.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:15 PM on July 18, 2015 [68 favorites]
So I was just walking down the street--well, oozing really; it's hot here today--about an hour ago to meet a friend. I ended up behind a late 20s/early 30s couple, one presenting male and the other presenting female. The part of the conversation I heard:
1: Want to go to $nicerestaurant for lunch?
2: ugh no
1: How about other $nicerestaurant?
2: ugh no
1: Oh, $decentrestaurant is near here, you said you wanted to try it
2: I don't want to go there
1: Fine let's go to $okayrestaurant then
2: no
(at this point we parted ways, until!)
An hour later I was walking back home, and saw the same couple.
Carrying McDonalds bags.
I was wishing for one of the crones to drop out of the sky with The Book.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:15 PM on July 18, 2015 [68 favorites]
Life is too short to be a bonsai human
Of all the gems and lessons I've learned in this thread, this one really stands out. Thank you for the phrase, I'm totally stealing it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:31 PM on July 18, 2015 [65 favorites]
Of all the gems and lessons I've learned in this thread, this one really stands out. Thank you for the phrase, I'm totally stealing it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:31 PM on July 18, 2015 [65 favorites]
Life is too short to be a bonsai human for someone else's toleration and convenience.
this is perfect. Thank you.
posted by gaspode at 1:36 PM on July 18, 2015 [26 favorites]
this is perfect. Thank you.
posted by gaspode at 1:36 PM on July 18, 2015 [26 favorites]
The author of the piece is pleased with the discussion happening here.
posted by almostmanda at 1:39 PM on July 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 1:39 PM on July 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
Get over here, Zimmerman! I'll give you the five bucks, if you want.
posted by lauranesson at 1:40 PM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by lauranesson at 1:40 PM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
Only halfway through the thread, but a few things that have now clicked for me about having a relationship with greater-than-average equality with emotional work (I'm a woman, he's a man):
-We get coded as queer more often than other straight couple friends, even ones that happen to be way farther over on the Kinsey scale. My husband gets independently called an honorary lesbian all the time. I just figured it was some ally cookie giving, but I think this emotional work is getting picked up on.
-Older female family members lose their minds over him. While I understand why this can be problematic, I'm looking at this thread and realizing why their minds are so blown. There have been a lot of conversations about how happy they are to see the feminist work they did actually amount to something in their children's and grandchildren's generations. It is in no way perfect, but the progress is real.
posted by tchemgrrl at 1:49 PM on July 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
-We get coded as queer more often than other straight couple friends, even ones that happen to be way farther over on the Kinsey scale. My husband gets independently called an honorary lesbian all the time. I just figured it was some ally cookie giving, but I think this emotional work is getting picked up on.
-Older female family members lose their minds over him. While I understand why this can be problematic, I'm looking at this thread and realizing why their minds are so blown. There have been a lot of conversations about how happy they are to see the feminist work they did actually amount to something in their children's and grandchildren's generations. It is in no way perfect, but the progress is real.
posted by tchemgrrl at 1:49 PM on July 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
I want to print out this entire thread and format it into a book to give to every person I know.
For those who missed it, gwint presented their mefi2book tool for converting a thread into a PDF last December.
It's unfortunately the sort of thing you need to have mad programmer skillz to use, though here are step-by-step instructions for a Mac. Perhaps someone who isn't in a mobile-device-only situation as I am at the moment would care to run it on this thread and post the link...
posted by XMLicious at 2:00 PM on July 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
XMLicious: That is amazing and now I wanna try it on this thread.
posted by XtinaS at 2:32 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 2:32 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was wishing for one of the crones to drop out of the sky with The Book.
Be the crone you want to see in the world!
posted by bile and syntax at 2:36 PM on July 18, 2015 [39 favorites]
Be the crone you want to see in the world!
posted by bile and syntax at 2:36 PM on July 18, 2015 [39 favorites]
(I am in fact trying this PDFifier thing out now, and shall post a link once it's done.)
posted by XtinaS at 2:40 PM on July 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 2:40 PM on July 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
Thank you all for this thread. Just reading it got me to pay my $5.
Life is too short to be a bonsai human for someone else's toleration and convenience.
So much this, and I was immediately reminded of Marge Piercy's "A Work of Artifice":
The bonsai tree
in the attractive pot
could have grown eighty feet tall
on the side of a mountain
till split by lightning.
But a gardener
carefully pruned it.
It is nine inches high.
Every day as he
whittles back the branches
the gardener croons,
It is your nature
to be small and cozy,
domestic and weak;
how lucky, little tree,
to have a pot to grow in.
With living creatures
one must begin very early
to dwarf their growth:
the bound feet,
the crippled brain,
the hair in curlers,
the hands you
love to touch.
posted by pibkac at 2:43 PM on July 18, 2015 [239 favorites]
Life is too short to be a bonsai human for someone else's toleration and convenience.
So much this, and I was immediately reminded of Marge Piercy's "A Work of Artifice":
The bonsai tree
in the attractive pot
could have grown eighty feet tall
on the side of a mountain
till split by lightning.
But a gardener
carefully pruned it.
It is nine inches high.
Every day as he
whittles back the branches
the gardener croons,
It is your nature
to be small and cozy,
domestic and weak;
how lucky, little tree,
to have a pot to grow in.
With living creatures
one must begin very early
to dwarf their growth:
the bound feet,
the crippled brain,
the hair in curlers,
the hands you
love to touch.
posted by pibkac at 2:43 PM on July 18, 2015 [239 favorites]
Thanks for the vote of confidence, bile and syntax, but if I've learned anything here it's: dude telling women how to do life is not ok.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:48 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:48 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
fffm, I was thinking the thing would be to tell the dude off. But probably even a superteam of crones armed with books would hesitate here just because he wouldn't be up for listening, she wouldn't be ready to DTMFA, and the whole thing would just cause more stress for her.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:06 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bile and syntax at 3:06 PM on July 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
omg omg omg
you guys
this is why it's so freaking annoying when dudes suddenly swear loudly! and/or make some loud! grunty! noise! while doing some sort of task, and you startle and ask what's wrong, for the reply of "nothing, it's ok, this jar lid was tight / this piece of software sucks / $dumbwhocares"
That too-well-trained part responds to this demand of emotional labor. Your fight-flight is ready for action and it turns out to be something a) trivial so it's ridiculous to hand out a pat on the head, and b) that emotional labor reaction is treated so dismissively in response by the one who instigated it.
posted by mimi at 3:15 PM on July 18, 2015 [42 favorites]
you guys
this is why it's so freaking annoying when dudes suddenly swear loudly! and/or make some loud! grunty! noise! while doing some sort of task, and you startle and ask what's wrong, for the reply of "nothing, it's ok, this jar lid was tight / this piece of software sucks / $dumbwhocares"
That too-well-trained part responds to this demand of emotional labor. Your fight-flight is ready for action and it turns out to be something a) trivial so it's ridiculous to hand out a pat on the head, and b) that emotional labor reaction is treated so dismissively in response by the one who instigated it.
posted by mimi at 3:15 PM on July 18, 2015 [42 favorites]
Of course, this is the same universe that forced Leia to comfort a grieving Luke Skywalker over the death of an old man he'd known for two days while her entire planet and everyone she'd ever loved was vaporized.
Boom.
it's unpaid emotional labor all the way down
posted by mimi at 3:27 PM on July 18, 2015 [95 favorites]
Boom.
it's unpaid emotional labor all the way down
posted by mimi at 3:27 PM on July 18, 2015 [95 favorites]
Oh wow I'd never read anything by Marge Piercy and now I have to go read her work!
posted by winna at 3:38 PM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by winna at 3:38 PM on July 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
this is why it's so freaking annoying when dudes suddenly swear loudly! and/or make some loud! grunty! noise! while doing some sort of task, and you startle and ask what's wrong, for the reply of "nothing, it's ok, this jar lid was tight / this piece of software sucks / $dumbwhocares"
Displays of anger are also pretty fucking scary and often are precursors to abuse, especially coming from men. I had an ex who did this when driving and it always scared the shit out of me and made me completely shut down to hear someone yelling like that; it's just something I'm socially trained to be afraid of. People with a history dealing with abusive, violent outburts probably deal with that even worse.
posted by NoraReed at 3:54 PM on July 18, 2015 [34 favorites]
Displays of anger are also pretty fucking scary and often are precursors to abuse, especially coming from men. I had an ex who did this when driving and it always scared the shit out of me and made me completely shut down to hear someone yelling like that; it's just something I'm socially trained to be afraid of. People with a history dealing with abusive, violent outburts probably deal with that even worse.
posted by NoraReed at 3:54 PM on July 18, 2015 [34 favorites]
i find it scary, frustrating because of the emotional labor part, and it pisses me off because for some reason men yelling out like that, or punching walls, or getting in your face, or other masculine coded outbursts aren't seen as "being emotional." they often get called passionate, or fiery, or a million other words that obscures the fact that if we were going to pick a gender more prone to being "emotional" it wouldn't be women...
posted by nadawi at 3:58 PM on July 18, 2015 [41 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 3:58 PM on July 18, 2015 [41 favorites]
I keep drilling down my Red Flag List and I've added yelling at stuff in a way that scares me to it. It's sometimes just a sign of male socialization that doesn't escalate, but even if it is, it's a huge emotional drain to have someone do it around me, and that's not worth it.
posted by NoraReed at 4:06 PM on July 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 4:06 PM on July 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
That too-well-trained part responds to this demand of emotional labor. Your fight-flight is ready for action and it turns out to be something a) trivial so it's ridiculous to hand out a pat on the head, and b) that emotional labor reaction is treated so dismissively in response by the one who instigated it.
Oh, so true, so true.
I have been thinking about intersections of emotional labour with other human-interaction situations. On the one hand, emotional intelligence - people who are aware of emotional labour are higher on the emotional intelligence scale (opinion, not data-verified fact). But then, those lacking emotional intelligence are unaware of their emotional labour deficit.
On the other hand, co-dependency. In many ways, I think co-dependency is co-morbid with a lack of emotional intelligence and labour in the other partner. Co-dependency comes when we think that we have to do all the emotional labour just to remain safe.
posted by Thella at 4:07 PM on July 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
Oh, so true, so true.
I have been thinking about intersections of emotional labour with other human-interaction situations. On the one hand, emotional intelligence - people who are aware of emotional labour are higher on the emotional intelligence scale (opinion, not data-verified fact). But then, those lacking emotional intelligence are unaware of their emotional labour deficit.
On the other hand, co-dependency. In many ways, I think co-dependency is co-morbid with a lack of emotional intelligence and labour in the other partner. Co-dependency comes when we think that we have to do all the emotional labour just to remain safe.
posted by Thella at 4:07 PM on July 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
Yeah, that scary on a whole other level...I just meant the louder-than-grumble attention-seeking variety that simultaneously tries to pretend it's not attention-seeking.
posted by mimi at 4:09 PM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by mimi at 4:09 PM on July 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
pibkac, thank you for sharing that poem. I may have to get it printed and framed.
posted by jaguar at 4:17 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 4:17 PM on July 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Finally delurking. Thank you to all the women on MeFi who articulate your rage in these threads; you make me happy.
I’m a cishet woman in my late 20s, and I’ve never been in a long-term relationship. My friends keep telling me I need to lower my standards and just date someone, anyone! But… why? So that I too can be emotionally exhausted by some inconsiderate dude who expends minimal effort and yet feels entitled to on-demand coddling and fucking? I know so many loving, empathetic women who spend their lives tiptoeing around moody, oblivious, energy-vampiric men.
Fuck that.
*sips margarita*
posted by crone islander at 6:46 PM on July 18, 2015 [154 favorites]
I’m a cishet woman in my late 20s, and I’ve never been in a long-term relationship. My friends keep telling me I need to lower my standards and just date someone, anyone! But… why? So that I too can be emotionally exhausted by some inconsiderate dude who expends minimal effort and yet feels entitled to on-demand coddling and fucking? I know so many loving, empathetic women who spend their lives tiptoeing around moody, oblivious, energy-vampiric men.
Fuck that.
*sips margarita*
posted by crone islander at 6:46 PM on July 18, 2015 [154 favorites]
*hands over a fresh taco*
Welcome, fellow crone!
posted by palomar at 7:43 PM on July 18, 2015 [18 favorites]
Welcome, fellow crone!
posted by palomar at 7:43 PM on July 18, 2015 [18 favorites]
"Ultimately, in my experience, any woman's refusal to choose a restaurant is based on the often-correct suspicion that whatever choice you make will be wrong anyway, so let's just go where he wants to go, it makes things so much easier."
Oh hell yes.
"I'm done with this "Oh, I don't care, pick whatever you want (but not really, what I mean is pick something that you have psychically divined that I want and then I can have all my needs met without having to make any choices or do any work!)" business."
My dad would pull this shit--ask where we wanted to eat every Friday night and then object to every selection, wouldn't put in his own. I finally just made a flow chart list of every restaurant by location, cuisine, price, etc. and would hand it to him and say "PICK ONE." It worked. I am slightly better about this sort of topic than I used to be, but it's a lot easier being all "no preferences, whatever you want" than it is to object if "he" says something, or suggest my own preferences and then get crap for it.
"Fiancee (F): What do you want?
Me: I just want everyone to be happy.
F: That is not a valid response. What do you want for our wedding?
Me: I don't understand what you mean! I WANT EVERYONE TO BE HAPPY!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!"
I think this came up in a Carolyn Hax column recently. I get exactly what she meant: "I want everyone to be happy and NOT BE MAD AT ME AND FORCING ME TO PICK SIDES." Unfortunately, you never get that option in some cases.
In other news: I have to serve the public at my job and I never, ever hear the end of how shitty they think I am at it, no matter what I do. I think I've realized from this thread that it may very well be an emotional labor issue: I'm supposed to WANT to take on other people's burdens and move heaven and earth to solve their problems even if I have zero expertise in how to do it. I don't enjoy doing this, I frequently feel overwhelmed by humanity and neediness and I canNOT tell people to back off and give me some space. I don't do it with perfect female grace and ease--I'm stressed and you can tell I'm not a natural. No wonder they think I'm awful, I'm not doing my female job.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:38 PM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
Oh hell yes.
"I'm done with this "Oh, I don't care, pick whatever you want (but not really, what I mean is pick something that you have psychically divined that I want and then I can have all my needs met without having to make any choices or do any work!)" business."
My dad would pull this shit--ask where we wanted to eat every Friday night and then object to every selection, wouldn't put in his own. I finally just made a flow chart list of every restaurant by location, cuisine, price, etc. and would hand it to him and say "PICK ONE." It worked. I am slightly better about this sort of topic than I used to be, but it's a lot easier being all "no preferences, whatever you want" than it is to object if "he" says something, or suggest my own preferences and then get crap for it.
"Fiancee (F): What do you want?
Me: I just want everyone to be happy.
F: That is not a valid response. What do you want for our wedding?
Me: I don't understand what you mean! I WANT EVERYONE TO BE HAPPY!! THAT IS WHAT I WANT!!!"
I think this came up in a Carolyn Hax column recently. I get exactly what she meant: "I want everyone to be happy and NOT BE MAD AT ME AND FORCING ME TO PICK SIDES." Unfortunately, you never get that option in some cases.
In other news: I have to serve the public at my job and I never, ever hear the end of how shitty they think I am at it, no matter what I do. I think I've realized from this thread that it may very well be an emotional labor issue: I'm supposed to WANT to take on other people's burdens and move heaven and earth to solve their problems even if I have zero expertise in how to do it. I don't enjoy doing this, I frequently feel overwhelmed by humanity and neediness and I canNOT tell people to back off and give me some space. I don't do it with perfect female grace and ease--I'm stressed and you can tell I'm not a natural. No wonder they think I'm awful, I'm not doing my female job.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:38 PM on July 18, 2015 [22 favorites]
There's a version of the "pick one" thing that I've seen work. You get the amount of people choosing, double it, subtract one. The first person picks that number of restaurants. Each successive person eliminates 2. The last person chooses from the remaining 3. (So with 3 people decision, the first person chooses 5 restaurants, the second chooses 3 of those, the last picks from those 3.) It won't work with the most recalcitrant of the won't-make-decisions-and-won't-suggest people, but it can be an OK system.
posted by NoraReed at 8:43 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 8:43 PM on July 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Co-dependency comes when we think that we have to do all the emotional labour just to remain safe.
Oh hell to the yes.
And it's not always about your partner (although I imagine the battle would be easier if you had more support in the emotional labour department.) I struggle every day to remind myself that I don't need to be the one that fixes all the things, at home and at work. Probably because growing up my mom did fix all the things (or tried to), and it was never enough for my father. So I must be even better at it than her if I want a chance at happiness, right? (I've done a lot of work on this, but have a lot yet to do).
This thread has been amazing and I recognize myself and my relationships and career in so much of it.
And I'm good at emotional labour and people clue into that very quickly - I remember when I was a high school student, even teachers would confide in me about their personal problems. But it was unbalanced, and it would pile up and pile up and pile and every three or four years I would melt down and shut myself away from the world, exhausted and depressed. I've always understood myself why that happens, but now I feel like I have the language to explain it to others, and that I'm not alone in this.
posted by scrute at 9:17 PM on July 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
Oh hell to the yes.
And it's not always about your partner (although I imagine the battle would be easier if you had more support in the emotional labour department.) I struggle every day to remind myself that I don't need to be the one that fixes all the things, at home and at work. Probably because growing up my mom did fix all the things (or tried to), and it was never enough for my father. So I must be even better at it than her if I want a chance at happiness, right? (I've done a lot of work on this, but have a lot yet to do).
This thread has been amazing and I recognize myself and my relationships and career in so much of it.
And I'm good at emotional labour and people clue into that very quickly - I remember when I was a high school student, even teachers would confide in me about their personal problems. But it was unbalanced, and it would pile up and pile up and pile and every three or four years I would melt down and shut myself away from the world, exhausted and depressed. I've always understood myself why that happens, but now I feel like I have the language to explain it to others, and that I'm not alone in this.
posted by scrute at 9:17 PM on July 18, 2015 [24 favorites]
This post is just fantastic. So many things. Reading this thread took a lot of time today, but it was worth it, because it gave me some vocabulary for and recognition of the ways that I've been doing so much extra emotional labor in addition to physical and wage-earning labor I do. I kind of knew that was the case, but this has helped a lot, and I thank you all for it.
My husband got either pity or adulation from women for doing this stuff; once it turned out I was alive and just not doing "my" job, I was treated with a lot of hostility. Yeah, dance tends to be gendered but this kind of thing happens all over.
When he's upset, my husband throws it back at me periodically that his family always asks where I am when I’m working a lot and says “We know limeonaire works a lot.” Or worse, he expresses with disappointment, they don’t expect me to be at certain things because work, and they're surprised when I show up, even though in reality, I've almost never missed an event his family has invited me to. So on one hand…victory, if they realize I have priorities beyond his happiness? But I think he sees it as a failing on my part to not seem more available. He also thinks I should be doing an equal share of cleaning even though he’s the one who cares much more about the floor being swept or the rug vacuumed than I do, and I’m the one who’s working full-time to support us. I am cognizant of how much this might make me sound like a '50s-era breadwinning man, though, and so I try to be giving in this respect and temper my frustration with understanding and action with regard to the chores. But this, too, is emotional work, just working through his feelings on the subject of how I behave and feel with regard to domestic labor.
I was raised by a mother who very actively challenged this kind of thing, even if it made her look rude. For example, if we visited my father's side of the family, all the women visiting would immediately head to kitchen to help with the cooking, while the men would kick back and relax on the sofas. This was in India, so if anything, patriarchal gender norms were even stronger. My mom just would not go into the kitchen and stay chatting with the menfolk about work or whatever other interests she had (she had a lot of them!) . As a child, this made me intensely uncomfortable, but she'd just tell me that I would understand later on (which I do).
Yep, I largely do not offer to help when I am over at my husband’s family’s house, even though all the other women are. I’m sure that this has been noticed, but I’ve been going to their houses for eight years now, and no one has ever said anything to me about it. I hang out with the kids and I talk to the guys and whichever women are sitting on the couch and I hang out and talk to those who are cooking at times but I do not do this work, and usually when I ask if I can help people don’t give me many tasks to do, and this is and should be fine! And yet I'm still always waiting for the other shoe to drop with regard to this, worried that someday, someone will notice and condemn me for not participating in this roundtable of women's work in the kitchen.
This also reminds me of the discussions about how we have to change our diet, which once my husband is off his feeding tube will mean cooking more, specifically me cooking more because I don't cook enough, and at this point in the discussion he usually gives me this mournful look like I’m the reason—me, and my job, and my not caring enough—that we’re collectively sick, fat, and out of shape. It's true, the stress of my job can contribute to my not wanting to do time- and energy-consuming things like cooking, and he cooks more than I do, but I think he sees this as a failing on my part.
Also, this thread has reminded me of the thank-you cards for our wedding. Thank-you cards have never been my thing, ever, and I'm really not the person who's ever been up for throwing myself on grenades of emotional labor. But when we got married several years ago, I bought thank-you cards, and I kept a detailed list of who gave us what at the wedding. I said, "OK, here's the list, I will write thank-you cards for my friends and family and you should write thank-you cards for yours. OK?" Well, I started mine, and due to life happening, never did get super far with them—but my husband never really started his, and between the two of us, we never sent them out, and to this day, it is his utter shame that we never did this, and I have this sense that he faults me for not making it happen, even though the burden was 50 percent his.
This thread reminds me somewhat of the work that private bankers do for wealthy people. It's been described to me as "emotional concierge" - the actual money stuff is 10-20%, and the rest is reassuring them about their decisions, knowing their family and personal issues, arranging personal crap like birthday presents and tickets, and listening to them endlessly. It's understood that you're being paid to make your client happy, because the actual financial service you provide is replaceable and minor. Surprisingly, the female private bankers I know tend to be pretty tough outside of work - they won't put up with it if they're not getting paid either.
Yes, I think being a project manager and doing some of the same things has also made me less willing to do it for free in my personal life.
if you are actually good at all that emotional labor type stuff and enjoy it, what are ways to capitalize on that that pay decently and are respected? I mean, we have plenty of low paid jobs, like waitressing, that expect this stuff and we have plenty of jobs that aren't respected, like sex work. Is there anything where being good at this actually pays what it should and is respected and all that? I wonder about that a fair amount and I don't know if I have any answers yet.
If you are good at this and also organized as hell, with domain-specific knowledge of the field you would work in, being a project manager might be a good job for you. But then there's the following to consider.
Hey...I think this is part of how women in programming & STEM get sidelined into "project management," which somehow never has the actual authority and actual money of actual management?!
Heh. I think the work I do is valuable, and I can see that value on a daily basis. I think I'm compensated pretty well for what I do. That said, I think as a former content creator and producer, I’ve even internalized that some of what I do as a project manager is “not work,” and it makes me both more willing to work longer hours and less forgiving of myself when the work is hard and takes longer than expected. And then there's this...
men coined leadership to recognize when their own gender exhibits those traits, or, OR how men view leadership is actually someone making decisions without actually or being perceived as taking into consideration the needs/desires/impacts of the group, then expecting people to do their bidding due to their "authority". . . which could actually be pretty bad.
I think it’s both. I run into this sometimes when I have to set up a meeting, for instance, by looking at everyone’s schedules on the staff side, consulting them to be sure their schedules are up-to-date, checking in with a client to see whether the times that work for us work for them, and sometimes repeating this and repeating it again. I sometimes get jokes about this in a workplace that is largely male—“Heh, who knew setting up this meeting was an afternoon's worth of work?”—and it’s like, "Yes, actually taking people’s availability and preferences into consideration does take time.”
We just had a (rare) all-hands meeting at work this week about showing appreciation to our coworkers. It was awkward as hell coming up with nice, useful things to say to people on the spot, but good to have the enforced practice for everyone.
My former coworker and I suggested an office party along these lines, basically like Valentine’s Day for intraoffice compliments. It was shot down almost immediately by male coworkers as hokey and unproductive. Neither of us works there anymore.
So now I work for a company where there is at least some acknowledgement of emotional work and its importance. What I like is that in my current workplace, when in my review I said I was specifically working on modulating my own emotional responses to client behavior and finding ways to express that among our staff such that the staff feels supported and heard (“Yes, that thing the client did made this more difficult, and I understand the situation you're facing”) but also such that I’m providing emotional leadership and not contributing to a bad dynamic between our staff and clients, the male boss who was present in my review got it and acknowledged that this sort of emotional management is work and that it is worthwhile work that the company in fact values and wants to find ways to nurture and improve. That was good to hear.
I've been away for the last three weeks house sitting for some friends. Its been great. I come back yesterday and even though my housemates weren't in, I got immediately angry because my being away for three weeks meant NOTHING had been done. There was no toilet paper left. The living room was full of dried washing that no one could be bothered to put away. The recycling hadn't been touched. My male housemate has still not paid me for three months of electricity bills, because I insist on emailing him or texting him to remind him when its convenient for me, and not when its convenient for him.
This scenario just reminded me of how my husband came home from the hospital a while back and was disappointed that I hadn’t spent the weeks he was in the hospital—while I was going to visit him there daily, working from my laptop at the hospital all day, and staying with him there until 9 p.m.—going home to clean the house while he was away, so that he could come back to a squeaky clean space. I actually did do some cleaning while he was away, but it wasn’t enough.
this is why it's so freaking annoying when dudes suddenly swear loudly! and/or make some loud! grunty! noise! while doing some sort of task, and you startle and ask what's wrong, for the reply of "nothing, it's ok, this jar lid was tight / this piece of software sucks / $dumbwhocares"
That too-well-trained part responds to this demand of emotional labor. Your fight-flight is ready for action and it turns out to be something a) trivial so it's ridiculous to hand out a pat on the head, and b) that emotional labor reaction is treated so dismissively in response by the one who instigated it. …
Displays of anger are also pretty fucking scary and often are precursors to abuse, especially coming from men. I had an ex who did this when driving and it always scared the shit out of me and made me completely shut down to hear someone yelling like that; it's just something I'm socially trained to be afraid of. People with a history dealing with abusive, violent outburts probably deal with that even worse.
I went through this with my husband a couple weeks ago when he’d just gotten out of the hospital and I was used to every loud noise or alarm or “oh my God” being a life-threatening problem, so my startle meter was perhaps a bit turned up—and I’ve got a pretty big startle response already from years of physical and emotional abuse as a kid—and instead his “oh my God” exclamations were about things like fantasy football mock drafts. So I said, “Hey, can you try to not exclaim so loudly about stuff that’s not an emergency right now?” And he’s like, “That’s just how I talk, that’s the way I’ve always been, you’re on edge, what’s wrong with you, you should get therapy.”
if I by some miracle make it through those steps intact that new guy will then die too.
My husband is quite alive, but he’s been somewhat sick for several years and very sick for several months. And so I've spent a lot of time looking at the people around me in the hospital while visiting him there, noticing that they looked good and fit and healthy, then thinking about the fact that they were in a hospital and that probably meant that they had health issues of some sort or were getting tested for health issues and anyway they’re all going to die eventually anyway so what’s the point. Yeah, I am going straight to Crone Island with y'all someday.
Ultimately, in my experience, any woman's refusal to choose a restaurant is based on the often-correct suspicion that whatever choice you make will be wrong anyway, so let's just go where he wants to go, it makes things so much easier. …
I am a super indecisive person, and I feel like a fiendish thingy just poked right at the heart of the reason why. When you're making decisions where you're prioritizing other people's preferences - often unstated or even unconscious preferences - it's damned hard to choose anything.
Yes.
Conversing with me rather than saying, "I don't care about that" or "Who cares?" when I talk about something.
I had a dream last night that Robert Downey Jr. surprised me with something he thought I would like, based on my interests: Himself, springing out of a pile of leaves by my bed, enthusiastically wearing a unicorn horn and hooves like a brony. The dream was so satisfying, I think, not because I really want this to happen, but because it was nice to feel supported in my interests, however silly they might be—my husband vocally does not support this interest.
Other thoughts: It's actually quantifiably true that men get more benefits from marriage than women do, especially when the man is older and the woman is younger. I also wanted to second The Managed Heart as a good resource for understanding emotional labor in the workplace. I read this during my first job after college, working at a bookstore, and it's something I still mentally refer back to a lot.
Also, these are some related links to thoughts I've had recently that dovetailed with this thread:
• the liberating realization that I'm not obligated to sew buttons back on things if I don't want
• being told by my S.O. with G.I. issues that I use a lot of toilet paper
• dealing with being a caregiver when I'm not particularly caring by nature
• being the one who still lives in my hometown and so is expected to deal with my father's affairs without error or complaint, and how invisible this is to most men
• being part of an office morale team tasked with remembering birthdays and continually having this work dismissed as unimportant to the team's goals or to life in general
• How the work women do in these respects and actually caring about family members' well-being makes travel difficult too
• Why "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours" is bullshit
I feel like what you are getting with this comment is an outpouring of my resentments and frustrations, and by reading it, you are probably performing emotional labor as well, but that said, reading this thread has been very cathartic and has helped me recognize some of the things in my life and my relationships where there's an issue or inequality in this regard. Thank you all for voicing the things you have here, and giving me a space to do the same.
posted by limeonaire at 1:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [53 favorites]
My husband got either pity or adulation from women for doing this stuff; once it turned out I was alive and just not doing "my" job, I was treated with a lot of hostility. Yeah, dance tends to be gendered but this kind of thing happens all over.
When he's upset, my husband throws it back at me periodically that his family always asks where I am when I’m working a lot and says “We know limeonaire works a lot.” Or worse, he expresses with disappointment, they don’t expect me to be at certain things because work, and they're surprised when I show up, even though in reality, I've almost never missed an event his family has invited me to. So on one hand…victory, if they realize I have priorities beyond his happiness? But I think he sees it as a failing on my part to not seem more available. He also thinks I should be doing an equal share of cleaning even though he’s the one who cares much more about the floor being swept or the rug vacuumed than I do, and I’m the one who’s working full-time to support us. I am cognizant of how much this might make me sound like a '50s-era breadwinning man, though, and so I try to be giving in this respect and temper my frustration with understanding and action with regard to the chores. But this, too, is emotional work, just working through his feelings on the subject of how I behave and feel with regard to domestic labor.
I was raised by a mother who very actively challenged this kind of thing, even if it made her look rude. For example, if we visited my father's side of the family, all the women visiting would immediately head to kitchen to help with the cooking, while the men would kick back and relax on the sofas. This was in India, so if anything, patriarchal gender norms were even stronger. My mom just would not go into the kitchen and stay chatting with the menfolk about work or whatever other interests she had (she had a lot of them!) . As a child, this made me intensely uncomfortable, but she'd just tell me that I would understand later on (which I do).
Yep, I largely do not offer to help when I am over at my husband’s family’s house, even though all the other women are. I’m sure that this has been noticed, but I’ve been going to their houses for eight years now, and no one has ever said anything to me about it. I hang out with the kids and I talk to the guys and whichever women are sitting on the couch and I hang out and talk to those who are cooking at times but I do not do this work, and usually when I ask if I can help people don’t give me many tasks to do, and this is and should be fine! And yet I'm still always waiting for the other shoe to drop with regard to this, worried that someday, someone will notice and condemn me for not participating in this roundtable of women's work in the kitchen.
This also reminds me of the discussions about how we have to change our diet, which once my husband is off his feeding tube will mean cooking more, specifically me cooking more because I don't cook enough, and at this point in the discussion he usually gives me this mournful look like I’m the reason—me, and my job, and my not caring enough—that we’re collectively sick, fat, and out of shape. It's true, the stress of my job can contribute to my not wanting to do time- and energy-consuming things like cooking, and he cooks more than I do, but I think he sees this as a failing on my part.
Also, this thread has reminded me of the thank-you cards for our wedding. Thank-you cards have never been my thing, ever, and I'm really not the person who's ever been up for throwing myself on grenades of emotional labor. But when we got married several years ago, I bought thank-you cards, and I kept a detailed list of who gave us what at the wedding. I said, "OK, here's the list, I will write thank-you cards for my friends and family and you should write thank-you cards for yours. OK?" Well, I started mine, and due to life happening, never did get super far with them—but my husband never really started his, and between the two of us, we never sent them out, and to this day, it is his utter shame that we never did this, and I have this sense that he faults me for not making it happen, even though the burden was 50 percent his.
This thread reminds me somewhat of the work that private bankers do for wealthy people. It's been described to me as "emotional concierge" - the actual money stuff is 10-20%, and the rest is reassuring them about their decisions, knowing their family and personal issues, arranging personal crap like birthday presents and tickets, and listening to them endlessly. It's understood that you're being paid to make your client happy, because the actual financial service you provide is replaceable and minor. Surprisingly, the female private bankers I know tend to be pretty tough outside of work - they won't put up with it if they're not getting paid either.
Yes, I think being a project manager and doing some of the same things has also made me less willing to do it for free in my personal life.
if you are actually good at all that emotional labor type stuff and enjoy it, what are ways to capitalize on that that pay decently and are respected? I mean, we have plenty of low paid jobs, like waitressing, that expect this stuff and we have plenty of jobs that aren't respected, like sex work. Is there anything where being good at this actually pays what it should and is respected and all that? I wonder about that a fair amount and I don't know if I have any answers yet.
If you are good at this and also organized as hell, with domain-specific knowledge of the field you would work in, being a project manager might be a good job for you. But then there's the following to consider.
Hey...I think this is part of how women in programming & STEM get sidelined into "project management," which somehow never has the actual authority and actual money of actual management?!
Heh. I think the work I do is valuable, and I can see that value on a daily basis. I think I'm compensated pretty well for what I do. That said, I think as a former content creator and producer, I’ve even internalized that some of what I do as a project manager is “not work,” and it makes me both more willing to work longer hours and less forgiving of myself when the work is hard and takes longer than expected. And then there's this...
men coined leadership to recognize when their own gender exhibits those traits, or, OR how men view leadership is actually someone making decisions without actually or being perceived as taking into consideration the needs/desires/impacts of the group, then expecting people to do their bidding due to their "authority". . . which could actually be pretty bad.
I think it’s both. I run into this sometimes when I have to set up a meeting, for instance, by looking at everyone’s schedules on the staff side, consulting them to be sure their schedules are up-to-date, checking in with a client to see whether the times that work for us work for them, and sometimes repeating this and repeating it again. I sometimes get jokes about this in a workplace that is largely male—“Heh, who knew setting up this meeting was an afternoon's worth of work?”—and it’s like, "Yes, actually taking people’s availability and preferences into consideration does take time.”
We just had a (rare) all-hands meeting at work this week about showing appreciation to our coworkers. It was awkward as hell coming up with nice, useful things to say to people on the spot, but good to have the enforced practice for everyone.
My former coworker and I suggested an office party along these lines, basically like Valentine’s Day for intraoffice compliments. It was shot down almost immediately by male coworkers as hokey and unproductive. Neither of us works there anymore.
So now I work for a company where there is at least some acknowledgement of emotional work and its importance. What I like is that in my current workplace, when in my review I said I was specifically working on modulating my own emotional responses to client behavior and finding ways to express that among our staff such that the staff feels supported and heard (“Yes, that thing the client did made this more difficult, and I understand the situation you're facing”) but also such that I’m providing emotional leadership and not contributing to a bad dynamic between our staff and clients, the male boss who was present in my review got it and acknowledged that this sort of emotional management is work and that it is worthwhile work that the company in fact values and wants to find ways to nurture and improve. That was good to hear.
I've been away for the last three weeks house sitting for some friends. Its been great. I come back yesterday and even though my housemates weren't in, I got immediately angry because my being away for three weeks meant NOTHING had been done. There was no toilet paper left. The living room was full of dried washing that no one could be bothered to put away. The recycling hadn't been touched. My male housemate has still not paid me for three months of electricity bills, because I insist on emailing him or texting him to remind him when its convenient for me, and not when its convenient for him.
This scenario just reminded me of how my husband came home from the hospital a while back and was disappointed that I hadn’t spent the weeks he was in the hospital—while I was going to visit him there daily, working from my laptop at the hospital all day, and staying with him there until 9 p.m.—going home to clean the house while he was away, so that he could come back to a squeaky clean space. I actually did do some cleaning while he was away, but it wasn’t enough.
this is why it's so freaking annoying when dudes suddenly swear loudly! and/or make some loud! grunty! noise! while doing some sort of task, and you startle and ask what's wrong, for the reply of "nothing, it's ok, this jar lid was tight / this piece of software sucks / $dumbwhocares"
That too-well-trained part responds to this demand of emotional labor. Your fight-flight is ready for action and it turns out to be something a) trivial so it's ridiculous to hand out a pat on the head, and b) that emotional labor reaction is treated so dismissively in response by the one who instigated it. …
Displays of anger are also pretty fucking scary and often are precursors to abuse, especially coming from men. I had an ex who did this when driving and it always scared the shit out of me and made me completely shut down to hear someone yelling like that; it's just something I'm socially trained to be afraid of. People with a history dealing with abusive, violent outburts probably deal with that even worse.
I went through this with my husband a couple weeks ago when he’d just gotten out of the hospital and I was used to every loud noise or alarm or “oh my God” being a life-threatening problem, so my startle meter was perhaps a bit turned up—and I’ve got a pretty big startle response already from years of physical and emotional abuse as a kid—and instead his “oh my God” exclamations were about things like fantasy football mock drafts. So I said, “Hey, can you try to not exclaim so loudly about stuff that’s not an emergency right now?” And he’s like, “That’s just how I talk, that’s the way I’ve always been, you’re on edge, what’s wrong with you, you should get therapy.”
if I by some miracle make it through those steps intact that new guy will then die too.
My husband is quite alive, but he’s been somewhat sick for several years and very sick for several months. And so I've spent a lot of time looking at the people around me in the hospital while visiting him there, noticing that they looked good and fit and healthy, then thinking about the fact that they were in a hospital and that probably meant that they had health issues of some sort or were getting tested for health issues and anyway they’re all going to die eventually anyway so what’s the point. Yeah, I am going straight to Crone Island with y'all someday.
Ultimately, in my experience, any woman's refusal to choose a restaurant is based on the often-correct suspicion that whatever choice you make will be wrong anyway, so let's just go where he wants to go, it makes things so much easier. …
I am a super indecisive person, and I feel like a fiendish thingy just poked right at the heart of the reason why. When you're making decisions where you're prioritizing other people's preferences - often unstated or even unconscious preferences - it's damned hard to choose anything.
Yes.
Conversing with me rather than saying, "I don't care about that" or "Who cares?" when I talk about something.
I had a dream last night that Robert Downey Jr. surprised me with something he thought I would like, based on my interests: Himself, springing out of a pile of leaves by my bed, enthusiastically wearing a unicorn horn and hooves like a brony. The dream was so satisfying, I think, not because I really want this to happen, but because it was nice to feel supported in my interests, however silly they might be—my husband vocally does not support this interest.
Other thoughts: It's actually quantifiably true that men get more benefits from marriage than women do, especially when the man is older and the woman is younger. I also wanted to second The Managed Heart as a good resource for understanding emotional labor in the workplace. I read this during my first job after college, working at a bookstore, and it's something I still mentally refer back to a lot.
Also, these are some related links to thoughts I've had recently that dovetailed with this thread:
• the liberating realization that I'm not obligated to sew buttons back on things if I don't want
• being told by my S.O. with G.I. issues that I use a lot of toilet paper
• dealing with being a caregiver when I'm not particularly caring by nature
• being the one who still lives in my hometown and so is expected to deal with my father's affairs without error or complaint, and how invisible this is to most men
• being part of an office morale team tasked with remembering birthdays and continually having this work dismissed as unimportant to the team's goals or to life in general
• How the work women do in these respects and actually caring about family members' well-being makes travel difficult too
• Why "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours" is bullshit
I feel like what you are getting with this comment is an outpouring of my resentments and frustrations, and by reading it, you are probably performing emotional labor as well, but that said, reading this thread has been very cathartic and has helped me recognize some of the things in my life and my relationships where there's an issue or inequality in this regard. Thank you all for voicing the things you have here, and giving me a space to do the same.
posted by limeonaire at 1:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [53 favorites]
I have been avidly reading this thread for days, and laughing and crying and wondering which story of mine to share. And yet it was only 20 minutes ago that I realised I don't call my mum often enough, leaving it other to initiate conversation when I know that she is more extroverted than I am and can't rely on my dad for anything. Crones gotta stick together. I bet she'd love a margarita and a taco.
posted by harriet vane at 3:46 AM on July 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by harriet vane at 3:46 AM on July 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
I have been thinking about how this part of the idea of charging for this as emotional labour is that it would make it visible and quantifiable and it would tip a lot of under compensated work up to the surface. But what's the point if there's no buyer? You still have to do the work and sell it to a market that consistently devalues and pushes down the price.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:31 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:31 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The bit of emotional labour mismanagement that nearly killed my marriage and may well still because 18 months later I still can't really understand or deal:
About 14 years ago I was raped. I've talked about it a few times here. It happened in the week between Christmas and New Years'. I was very drunk, didn't deal well; ignored it for years, finally got some therapy, ignored it more. The rapist was a friend of my husbands, a long time ago.
So the Christmas before last, he and his brother and his partner bully me into seeing Anchorman 2. First bit of emotional labour - going to see a movie I don't want to see, know will probably upset and or hurt me, but keep the peace hey. So we go, and we're sitting down and my husband says as he turns his phone off "oh, X-the-rapist contacted me on facebook."
Cue everything falling apart.
Total disassociation (I did laugh at the scene with Steve Carrell and the pants). Everyone realised something was wrong but I haven't even disclosed I'm a survivor to these people. So I just...shut down. When we left the cinema I got dropped off at home and rang my doctor, made an appointment, then went to bed. This was two days before Christmas, which is something I struggle with anyway, is a time of year when I'm on edge anyway. But my husband couldn't manage to emotionally deal with the message on his own, couldn't even imagine a way of doing that, work out how to tell me in a supportive way. That's not his job. His job is to throw these things at me and walk away, maybe critique my solution and say I take things too seriously, but never to deal with it on his own.
I don't think I could talk properly for a week or more. I got through Christmas on I don't even know what. I just couldn't think why he would do that. He said that he knew it was a mistake the moment the words came out of his mouth. I know he also sees me as capable and tremendously strong so able to withstand all of these things, but...god, it nearly killed me. It took three months for me to even consider having sex again.
(In the meantime his brother told me he thought "you should be over it by now, it shouldn't affect you like this")
(I needed to know that, obviously, because he had a thought and I should be aware of his very important thoughts on a thing he has no clue about and I'm a goddamn expert on, and I need to be fucking grateful that he shared and cares enough to have the thought and tell me about it)
And I still suffer the fallout you know? I know my rapist hasn't left the country, or even the city (the city I moved back to for my husband's sake, not my own, I hate it here). I have to live with the knowledge that even though my husband never turned my rape into his own rage-driven trauma, he still couldn't even care enough to think. We still go over and around this as a meta-issue, and he's getting better, but I still sometimes wonder if he actually cares for me or if it's just love+habit and I never truly cross his mind. He's really getting better at it but everytime I have to point it out, every time I have to say something about 'did you think about me?' or 'no I don't want to do that' or 'I asked for help, why didn't you help?' I feel that flinching agony again and the part of myself that just won't heal.
But hey, according to some other random bloke, I just need to get over it right? I'm letting grudges and point scoring kill my marriage. It's never the fucking asshole acting like an asshole over and over again, it's because my capacity for forgiveness doesn't extend to killing myself completely.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:58 AM on July 19, 2015 [100 favorites]
About 14 years ago I was raped. I've talked about it a few times here. It happened in the week between Christmas and New Years'. I was very drunk, didn't deal well; ignored it for years, finally got some therapy, ignored it more. The rapist was a friend of my husbands, a long time ago.
So the Christmas before last, he and his brother and his partner bully me into seeing Anchorman 2. First bit of emotional labour - going to see a movie I don't want to see, know will probably upset and or hurt me, but keep the peace hey. So we go, and we're sitting down and my husband says as he turns his phone off "oh, X-the-rapist contacted me on facebook."
Cue everything falling apart.
Total disassociation (I did laugh at the scene with Steve Carrell and the pants). Everyone realised something was wrong but I haven't even disclosed I'm a survivor to these people. So I just...shut down. When we left the cinema I got dropped off at home and rang my doctor, made an appointment, then went to bed. This was two days before Christmas, which is something I struggle with anyway, is a time of year when I'm on edge anyway. But my husband couldn't manage to emotionally deal with the message on his own, couldn't even imagine a way of doing that, work out how to tell me in a supportive way. That's not his job. His job is to throw these things at me and walk away, maybe critique my solution and say I take things too seriously, but never to deal with it on his own.
I don't think I could talk properly for a week or more. I got through Christmas on I don't even know what. I just couldn't think why he would do that. He said that he knew it was a mistake the moment the words came out of his mouth. I know he also sees me as capable and tremendously strong so able to withstand all of these things, but...god, it nearly killed me. It took three months for me to even consider having sex again.
(In the meantime his brother told me he thought "you should be over it by now, it shouldn't affect you like this")
(I needed to know that, obviously, because he had a thought and I should be aware of his very important thoughts on a thing he has no clue about and I'm a goddamn expert on, and I need to be fucking grateful that he shared and cares enough to have the thought and tell me about it)
And I still suffer the fallout you know? I know my rapist hasn't left the country, or even the city (the city I moved back to for my husband's sake, not my own, I hate it here). I have to live with the knowledge that even though my husband never turned my rape into his own rage-driven trauma, he still couldn't even care enough to think. We still go over and around this as a meta-issue, and he's getting better, but I still sometimes wonder if he actually cares for me or if it's just love+habit and I never truly cross his mind. He's really getting better at it but everytime I have to point it out, every time I have to say something about 'did you think about me?' or 'no I don't want to do that' or 'I asked for help, why didn't you help?' I feel that flinching agony again and the part of myself that just won't heal.
But hey, according to some other random bloke, I just need to get over it right? I'm letting grudges and point scoring kill my marriage. It's never the fucking asshole acting like an asshole over and over again, it's because my capacity for forgiveness doesn't extend to killing myself completely.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:58 AM on July 19, 2015 [100 favorites]
Like others this thread has led to me realizing quite a bit. This morning I realized that one of the main reasons I think my sisters husbands are so great is that they do emotional labor.
The even cooler thing is that they both didn't come that way. One did and the other has developed it and the skills over the course of their marriage. They've been through some pretty tough times. In relation to the thread he is an example of a guy who although the sensitivity and empathy is there he was never taught any of these sorts of skills growing up. Comes from a super dysfunctional family and his Dad modeled the macho, women here for us man type.
He's really is a great guy and I respect him a lot for the effort he's made over the years dealing with his family crap and doing the self work he's done. They've just adopted a 7 month old and it's damn poignant to see him and hear about how he is with the kid. My sister said she knew he be good but it's blown her a way. He comes home from work and takes over. Sends her off to rest while he looks after baby care all the way until the kid is bathed and in bed. No fuss, no muss, just does it.
While this sort of thing shouldn't be a big deal, should be just normal, in his case I find it a big deal because he's an example of how it's possible to learn new skills and in his case unlearn what was rolemodeled growing up. And even more get over having grown up with and abusive, alcoholic Dad who would have been horrified if he was alive to see how his son was acting now. His Dad would have let him know with no mincing of words that this was just another way that he was showing what a fucking pussy he is and how he would never amount to anything, especially MAN. (Guy was seriously brutal)
Not relating this because I think he needs cookies or anything but because with the desire to change it, good shit can happen. That all sorts of skills in this area can be learned. Yes he had our families and my sisters who already had the skills but the bulk of it was on him.
Also remember a conversation that he had with my other sister of how much just living around that sister and her husband helped him to see what a man in good relationship can be like. Like as an example, when I was going through a super shitty time with my own marriage I got a call from sister saying that they were paying for a plane ticket so I could come and visit. She was right it was exactly what I needed. I thanked her profusely and she said 'Don't thank me, thank BIL. It was his idea. He just came home and said he thought it would be a good thing so I could take a breather and spend some quality time with my sisters because emotionally I needed it. Just let him known the dates and he would arrange it all.' Good people.
I love both my BILs so much more now after this thread. And the best thing is that they're modeling to two young males who I expect will have these sorts of skills as well. My one nephew for sure, he's 12 and is already super awesome at emotional labor skills and my new nephew who will pick up on what his Dad is like now and not even know what it took to get to his normal.
So my advice to any guys reading who want to change and get better with all this, first it's super possible. It can be learned you just have to do it even though it can be hard and uncomfortable and two, find yourself some good male role models. Guys that already seem to have the skills and are good at it. Watch and see how they are and act even if you can't talk about it straight off.
posted by Jalliah at 5:09 AM on July 19, 2015 [47 favorites]
The even cooler thing is that they both didn't come that way. One did and the other has developed it and the skills over the course of their marriage. They've been through some pretty tough times. In relation to the thread he is an example of a guy who although the sensitivity and empathy is there he was never taught any of these sorts of skills growing up. Comes from a super dysfunctional family and his Dad modeled the macho, women here for us man type.
He's really is a great guy and I respect him a lot for the effort he's made over the years dealing with his family crap and doing the self work he's done. They've just adopted a 7 month old and it's damn poignant to see him and hear about how he is with the kid. My sister said she knew he be good but it's blown her a way. He comes home from work and takes over. Sends her off to rest while he looks after baby care all the way until the kid is bathed and in bed. No fuss, no muss, just does it.
While this sort of thing shouldn't be a big deal, should be just normal, in his case I find it a big deal because he's an example of how it's possible to learn new skills and in his case unlearn what was rolemodeled growing up. And even more get over having grown up with and abusive, alcoholic Dad who would have been horrified if he was alive to see how his son was acting now. His Dad would have let him know with no mincing of words that this was just another way that he was showing what a fucking pussy he is and how he would never amount to anything, especially MAN. (Guy was seriously brutal)
Not relating this because I think he needs cookies or anything but because with the desire to change it, good shit can happen. That all sorts of skills in this area can be learned. Yes he had our families and my sisters who already had the skills but the bulk of it was on him.
Also remember a conversation that he had with my other sister of how much just living around that sister and her husband helped him to see what a man in good relationship can be like. Like as an example, when I was going through a super shitty time with my own marriage I got a call from sister saying that they were paying for a plane ticket so I could come and visit. She was right it was exactly what I needed. I thanked her profusely and she said 'Don't thank me, thank BIL. It was his idea. He just came home and said he thought it would be a good thing so I could take a breather and spend some quality time with my sisters because emotionally I needed it. Just let him known the dates and he would arrange it all.' Good people.
I love both my BILs so much more now after this thread. And the best thing is that they're modeling to two young males who I expect will have these sorts of skills as well. My one nephew for sure, he's 12 and is already super awesome at emotional labor skills and my new nephew who will pick up on what his Dad is like now and not even know what it took to get to his normal.
So my advice to any guys reading who want to change and get better with all this, first it's super possible. It can be learned you just have to do it even though it can be hard and uncomfortable and two, find yourself some good male role models. Guys that already seem to have the skills and are good at it. Watch and see how they are and act even if you can't talk about it straight off.
posted by Jalliah at 5:09 AM on July 19, 2015 [47 favorites]
Oh my god, geek anachronism, that's fucking awful. He sounds like an inconsiderate jackass. Hugs if you want 'em. I hope it gets better.
posted by NoraReed at 5:21 AM on July 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 5:21 AM on July 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
So I go away for a few years and come back to this amazing thread. Wow. So many interesting viewpoints. So much pain. Thank you to everyone who opened up and hugs to everyone who vented.
And now my horror story: How the Utter Lack of Emotional Labor Completely Broke My Relationship With My Dad.
28 years ago I was in the hospital going through a terrible labor followed by a C-section followed by the death of my first child. In the 6 days I was in the hospital my father did not come by, call, send flowers or acknowledge in any way that his first grandchild was being born. A few days after I got home, my husband and I arranged for a small memorial service for close friends and family. When I called to invite him, my father said "I have to talk to K (his wife.)" He called back the next day to say "We don't believe in that sort of thing."
Over the years I have tried to define "that sort of thing." Consoling grieving parents? Gathering with like-minded people to eat cake and drink wine? "Talking about death?" Making a ceremony out of the passage from earth of a much-anticipated human being who was only alive for 24 hours?
I grieved and moved on, but I could never bring myself to pick up the phone and arrange to meet my dad-- something that had always been my responsibility. His birthday came and went and I didn't bother to send a card, much less a present. Years went by.
Then 8 years later I was pregnant again. One day out of the blue my step mother called. She wanted me to come to LA to meet them at a restaurant for lunch, a 1 hour drive. I looked down at my 8 month pregnant belly and decided no, I didn't want to sit in the hot car for a 2 hour round trip to make work for myself. I knew the lunch would be very hard emotional labor indeed. "Your father will be so disappointed." she said in a very chastising tone.
I could not help feeling that if my father was so dreadfully disappointed not to see his only daughter again he could make a bit of an effort himself. Needless to say he never bothered.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:39 AM on July 19, 2015 [143 favorites]
And now my horror story: How the Utter Lack of Emotional Labor Completely Broke My Relationship With My Dad.
28 years ago I was in the hospital going through a terrible labor followed by a C-section followed by the death of my first child. In the 6 days I was in the hospital my father did not come by, call, send flowers or acknowledge in any way that his first grandchild was being born. A few days after I got home, my husband and I arranged for a small memorial service for close friends and family. When I called to invite him, my father said "I have to talk to K (his wife.)" He called back the next day to say "We don't believe in that sort of thing."
Over the years I have tried to define "that sort of thing." Consoling grieving parents? Gathering with like-minded people to eat cake and drink wine? "Talking about death?" Making a ceremony out of the passage from earth of a much-anticipated human being who was only alive for 24 hours?
I grieved and moved on, but I could never bring myself to pick up the phone and arrange to meet my dad-- something that had always been my responsibility. His birthday came and went and I didn't bother to send a card, much less a present. Years went by.
Then 8 years later I was pregnant again. One day out of the blue my step mother called. She wanted me to come to LA to meet them at a restaurant for lunch, a 1 hour drive. I looked down at my 8 month pregnant belly and decided no, I didn't want to sit in the hot car for a 2 hour round trip to make work for myself. I knew the lunch would be very hard emotional labor indeed. "Your father will be so disappointed." she said in a very chastising tone.
I could not help feeling that if my father was so dreadfully disappointed not to see his only daughter again he could make a bit of an effort himself. Needless to say he never bothered.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:39 AM on July 19, 2015 [143 favorites]
Welcome back, SLoG!
posted by languagehat at 7:09 AM on July 19, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 7:09 AM on July 19, 2015 [23 favorites]
I can't remember the name or the author but I once read a book that had the line "Every woman's story is a tragedy; the worst part is that many men would find them funny." This thread has so many tragedies.
Hugs if y'all want them.
posted by winna at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2015 [60 favorites]
Hugs if y'all want them.
posted by winna at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2015 [60 favorites]
I thought of this thread tonight as my ex blew up at my refusal to comfort him over his inability to pay child support. He left the house just now after threatening to kill himself in front of my kids, and I thought okay, now you reach out and I texted a female friend who replied immediately with comfort and advice.
Part of me feels so sad that he is that angry and self absorbed, but mostly I'm relieved that I didn't have to spend the entire night making him feel better about not making any financial plans or a budget. I don't have to do that work anymore!
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:35 AM on July 19, 2015 [34 favorites]
Part of me feels so sad that he is that angry and self absorbed, but mostly I'm relieved that I didn't have to spend the entire night making him feel better about not making any financial plans or a budget. I don't have to do that work anymore!
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:35 AM on July 19, 2015 [34 favorites]
this is why it's so freaking annoying when dudes suddenly swear loudly! and/or make some loud! grunty! noise! while doing some sort of task, and you startle and ask what's wrong, for the reply of "nothing, it's ok, this jar lid was tight / this piece of software sucks / $dumbwhocares"
I don't know if it's better or worse, but I've only faced the inverse of this problem. It's usually when I'm cooking and I suddenly start shouting and swearing because I nearly chopped my finger off, or burned myself on the cast iron, or whathaveyou. And my husband, sitting mere meters away, won't even look up from his computer to see what happened. I could never quite put my finger on why that seemed SO incredibly rude until now. He's actually gotten a lot better since I started calling him out with a bitterly sarcastic, "OH DON'T WORRY ABOUT ME, YOU JUST RELAX, EVERYTHING IS FINE IN HERE". But god damn, I shouldn't have to worry that if I collapse in the shower, or choke on a cracker, or become otherwise incapacitated outside of his direct line of sight, the cats are the only ones who will notice and come to my aid.
posted by gueneverey at 7:59 AM on July 19, 2015 [30 favorites]
I don't know if it's better or worse, but I've only faced the inverse of this problem. It's usually when I'm cooking and I suddenly start shouting and swearing because I nearly chopped my finger off, or burned myself on the cast iron, or whathaveyou. And my husband, sitting mere meters away, won't even look up from his computer to see what happened. I could never quite put my finger on why that seemed SO incredibly rude until now. He's actually gotten a lot better since I started calling him out with a bitterly sarcastic, "OH DON'T WORRY ABOUT ME, YOU JUST RELAX, EVERYTHING IS FINE IN HERE". But god damn, I shouldn't have to worry that if I collapse in the shower, or choke on a cracker, or become otherwise incapacitated outside of his direct line of sight, the cats are the only ones who will notice and come to my aid.
posted by gueneverey at 7:59 AM on July 19, 2015 [30 favorites]
". . . but I still sometimes wonder if he actually cares for me or if it's just love+habit and I never truly cross his mind."
Damn, geek anachronism. I'm at a loss for words and I am so sorry.
I also wonder how many other women have this sense with just every day relationship burdens.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:18 AM on July 19, 2015 [22 favorites]
Damn, geek anachronism. I'm at a loss for words and I am so sorry.
I also wonder how many other women have this sense with just every day relationship burdens.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:18 AM on July 19, 2015 [22 favorites]
I'm letting grudges and point scoring kill my marriage.
The worst part with this kind of thing is that you (generic) know that if you let the balance of love get half as far in the red the other way, a tenth as far, you'd be the worst wife in the world. Hugs to you, geek anachronism, if you want them. You deserve so much better.
I've been thinking of so many relationships, including at least one friendship with a woman, that have fallen apart because I just couldn't do the emotional heavy lifting in them, or because the emotional labor of forgiving something awful and insensitive (like, say, "you feel that way because you're sick [with a chronic illness] and I'll talk to you when you're feeling better and more reasonable") was too much fucking effort. People hear about the straw that broke the camel's back in these relationships and they miss the fact that so much unacknowledged emotional labor on my side went unreciprocated, unappreciated, unnoticed for years before I said "fuck you" and quit--but I'm always the bad guy in these stories because I said enough was enough.
posted by immlass at 9:00 AM on July 19, 2015 [29 favorites]
The worst part with this kind of thing is that you (generic) know that if you let the balance of love get half as far in the red the other way, a tenth as far, you'd be the worst wife in the world. Hugs to you, geek anachronism, if you want them. You deserve so much better.
I've been thinking of so many relationships, including at least one friendship with a woman, that have fallen apart because I just couldn't do the emotional heavy lifting in them, or because the emotional labor of forgiving something awful and insensitive (like, say, "you feel that way because you're sick [with a chronic illness] and I'll talk to you when you're feeling better and more reasonable") was too much fucking effort. People hear about the straw that broke the camel's back in these relationships and they miss the fact that so much unacknowledged emotional labor on my side went unreciprocated, unappreciated, unnoticed for years before I said "fuck you" and quit--but I'm always the bad guy in these stories because I said enough was enough.
posted by immlass at 9:00 AM on July 19, 2015 [29 favorites]
This issue of thank-you cards, by the way, makes me think someone should go through Emily Post's Etiquette and annotate it with regard to all the things it prescribes that involve an outsize amount of emotional labor or domestic labor just to maintain supposed politesse. These things are relative, but it seems like there could even be a color-coding or star system for this: A red star or five stars for bending over backwards to make time for a task that is entirely emotional labor and is largely labor that falls to women, an orange star or four stars for labor that's a bit less intensive but still substantial, and so on. I have this suspicion that you'd find a lot of it falls disproportionately on women and supports a patriarchal division of labor, but maybe that has changed in more recent editions and I would be surprised.
posted by limeonaire at 9:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 9:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm a single mother by choice. When speaking to married mother friends, they're generous with sympathy and support for how hard it must be for me. Parenting alone can be lonely and I rarely get the chance to ask for relief and never get to opt out of basic parenting duties. But the truth is, it's what I signed up for and I also don't have anything to compare it to.
What surprises me, though, is how often I hear straight-up jealousy from these same friends! How I don't have to worry about who's picking up which day, how I don't have to negotiate my parenting decisions with someone else, how I don't have to ask for / cajole / beg for / demand help with parenting duties.
Even though there are two parents in their households, my friends also rarely get to ask for relief or opt out. I may be doing it all, and it's certainly exhausting, but I'm not carrying around a load of anger and resentment on top of it.
The concept of emotional labor has really helped me understand my friends' jealousy in a new way and I will try to be more generous with sympathy and support for how hard it must be for them.
And this thread has driven home another point. While I sometimes fantasize about having a partner and a co-parent, the reality is if I'm going to bring someone into my life, he's going to have to demonstrate real value to make it worth my while.
Thank you to everyone for sharing your experiences here and for the hard work you do in your lives every day.
posted by kittydelsol at 9:17 AM on July 19, 2015 [61 favorites]
What surprises me, though, is how often I hear straight-up jealousy from these same friends! How I don't have to worry about who's picking up which day, how I don't have to negotiate my parenting decisions with someone else, how I don't have to ask for / cajole / beg for / demand help with parenting duties.
Even though there are two parents in their households, my friends also rarely get to ask for relief or opt out. I may be doing it all, and it's certainly exhausting, but I'm not carrying around a load of anger and resentment on top of it.
The concept of emotional labor has really helped me understand my friends' jealousy in a new way and I will try to be more generous with sympathy and support for how hard it must be for them.
And this thread has driven home another point. While I sometimes fantasize about having a partner and a co-parent, the reality is if I'm going to bring someone into my life, he's going to have to demonstrate real value to make it worth my while.
Thank you to everyone for sharing your experiences here and for the hard work you do in your lives every day.
posted by kittydelsol at 9:17 AM on July 19, 2015 [61 favorites]
One of the issues with emotional labor is its invisibility. Dads, people without children, men generally... Just have no idea how time consuming it is to do this stuff. The neighborhood example is a great one.
Conversations like this make it more visible. But how can we all express the value of this labor without seeming whiny? How can I raise my (male) child to be better than the previous generation?
posted by k8t at 9:30 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Conversations like this make it more visible. But how can we all express the value of this labor without seeming whiny? How can I raise my (male) child to be better than the previous generation?
posted by k8t at 9:30 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'd rather live in the world where we encourage men to be more feminine, better listeners and better supporters than live in the world where everyone has one more guilt burden to be giving but not *too* giving. The author ignores that another reason why this role falls disproportionately on women is because men in our society no longer have strong connections amongst ourselves and maybe have never had a language to support each other.
I can never get behind the idea that kindness (even to irrational actors like a romantically spurned person) is a limited resource. Time is the limited resource, and by all means if your friends are wasting your time, walk away, verbalize your conflict or send them a bill. Mental energy is a different kind of resource but that's something only an individual can affect for themselves.
posted by Skwirl at 9:54 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I can never get behind the idea that kindness (even to irrational actors like a romantically spurned person) is a limited resource. Time is the limited resource, and by all means if your friends are wasting your time, walk away, verbalize your conflict or send them a bill. Mental energy is a different kind of resource but that's something only an individual can affect for themselves.
posted by Skwirl at 9:54 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I was just thinking about this thread. I was in a coffee shop working on my laptop, and this guy asked me if I had an iPhone charger. I said no, but guess I looked hesitant because he was like, "yes or no?" I was like, "well, I have one but I need it." He was like, "ok, fine, forget it." I briefly thought of giving it to him but then just sort of shrugged it off.
Like in the space of thirty seconds we suddenly had a situation where we had this transactional relationship already set up, where I owed him something and he was mad I wouldn't give it. Even not in a romantic context, I feel like men are constantly asking things of me, directions, phone chargers, smiles, sex, etc, and then are angry if I don't give it up. It's frustrating that it felt like a small victory to me to just say "I have a phone charger, but I need it. For myself."
posted by sweetkid at 9:56 AM on July 19, 2015 [98 favorites]
Like in the space of thirty seconds we suddenly had a situation where we had this transactional relationship already set up, where I owed him something and he was mad I wouldn't give it. Even not in a romantic context, I feel like men are constantly asking things of me, directions, phone chargers, smiles, sex, etc, and then are angry if I don't give it up. It's frustrating that it felt like a small victory to me to just say "I have a phone charger, but I need it. For myself."
posted by sweetkid at 9:56 AM on July 19, 2015 [98 favorites]
Crones! I think we have our shibboleth, from this comment:
"A good way to find out about a man's true character is how he reacts when you say "no" to him."
Ok, maybe not a shibboleth, but a good start anyways.
posted by RogueTech at 9:59 AM on July 19, 2015 [21 favorites]
"A good way to find out about a man's true character is how he reacts when you say "no" to him."
Ok, maybe not a shibboleth, but a good start anyways.
posted by RogueTech at 9:59 AM on July 19, 2015 [21 favorites]
Sweetkid, you say he was mad... Was he speaking in an angry tone? Because his words do not sound angry to me.
If someone said that it was fine, I'd be tempted to take them at their word, and happily 'forget it'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:02 AM on July 19, 2015
If someone said that it was fine, I'd be tempted to take them at their word, and happily 'forget it'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:02 AM on July 19, 2015
In any case, well done for saying no. You didn't owe him dick.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes. Yes he had an angry tone. Also, do you think it was appropriate for him to say "yes or no" after I initially declined? Because I do not.
posted by sweetkid at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [83 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [83 favorites]
Demanding 'yes or no' is a jerk move even if he didn't have a mad tone.
posted by winna at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by winna at 10:04 AM on July 19, 2015 [35 favorites]
Whoops jinx sweetkid!
posted by winna at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by winna at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Too-Ticky: The combination of "yes or no?" and combining three different ways of saying "alas" (individually whatevs, together overkill) gives off the strong vibe of an Impatient Dude. (Not to mention the part where sweetkid was, yknow, present at the time.)
posted by XtinaS at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes, that does sound pretty rude, I agree. I mean, you HAD already given him a no.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I’m sure that this has been noticed, but I’ve been going to their houses for eight years now, and no one has ever said anything to me about it. I hang out with the kids and I talk to the guys and whichever women are sitting on the couch and I hang out and talk to those who are cooking at times but I do not do this work, and usually when I ask if I can help people don’t give me many tasks to do, and this is and should be fine! And yet I'm still always waiting for the other shoe to drop with regard to this, worried that someday, someone will notice and condemn me for not participating in this roundtable of women's work in the kitchen.
My extended family is in the Midwest, and I've never seen them more than once or twice a year. Those times that I do see them, I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the dynamics between them. Because they all live so near each other and are in each others' lives, there are ongoing dislikes and personality conflicts and such, but I'm never privy to exactly what's behind them. (And being stereotypical Midwesterners, they don't talk about them in anything other than passive-aggressive terms.)
One of my cousins is married to a woman I've always really liked. She's a lot more straightforward than anyone else in the family. Says what she means, and doesn't shy away from stating an unpopular opinion. It's refreshing! From the first time I met her, though, it became clear that a lot of my (women) relatives -- my dear, wonderful, loving grandmother included -- did not like her. I always kind of assumed that it was because she had the gall to speak her mind, but I could never reconcile that with the depth of the grudge some of them held against her.
I was up there visiting one time, and the cousin and his wife had been over for dinner, and things got so uncomfortable after dessert that, after they left, I finally asked what the hell people had against her. There had to be some deep dark secret that, living so far away, I knew nothing about. I was wondering whether she'd cheated on him, or beat their kids, or was a closet alcoholic -- I mean, it had to be something really dark.
The answer: She never helped clean up after dinner.
This was an awesome woman who was raising their three awesome great-granddaughters/granddaughters/nieces/cousins while being awesome herself, and they hated her because she'd never helped clean the table -- which, in my family, is a prescribed task for the women, and the women only.
It baffles me.
But hey, according to some other random bloke, I just need to get over it right? I'm letting grudges and point scoring kill my marriage. It's never the fucking asshole acting like an asshole over and over again, it's because my capacity for forgiveness doesn't extend to killing myself completely.
geek anachronism, this sucks so much. I faced a similar issue with my partner last year, in that an assault I experienced as a teenager came up in a sort of unexpected way. Unexpected to me, anyway. My partner dropped it as a bomb during a session with a couple's therapist, and she used it as her own personal weapon in an argument, designating the assault as The Thing that must make me Act The Way I Act.
In the moment was furious with her for doing that and I froze solid. Later that day, though, it completely descended on me like a flood. It was never something I'd dealt with -- never something I even told people about, other than that I'd had a "bad experience." It being sprung on me, like that, in front of a third party, was the motherfucking trigger to end motherfucking triggers.
I told her how much it had upset me, and told her she needed not to do that again. But when it finally sank in with her how much I *was* upset by it (hello, jumping at my own reflection in the mirror!), I ended up having to comfort her. Which, fuck no. My sexual assault is not something I'm going to make *you* feel okay about.
Allie Brosh's "Depression, Part 2" comic has this bit I've always loved, because it is so spot on. She's talking about how she'd become so depressed that she didn't want to be alive anymore. She didn't want to kill herself necessarily -- she just didn't want to be alive. And in finally telling that to someone, she had to make them feel better about it. ("I'm really sorry. Can I get you some juice or something?")
This is such an inherited thing. Our emotions (my depression!) and our experiences (having been sexual assaulted!) are things that make other people frown and furrow their brows. They make people uncomfortable. So we apologize. We fucking apologize! I've been apologizing for my depression for a couple of years now, rather than leaving this relationship that is partially causing my depression!
Jesus. Is there a tip jar in this thread anywhere? Because it feels like you should all be getting a therapist's pay. Or at least contributions toward the bar tab.
Secret Life of Gravy, I'm glad you're back!
posted by mudpuppie at 10:06 AM on July 19, 2015 [66 favorites]
My extended family is in the Midwest, and I've never seen them more than once or twice a year. Those times that I do see them, I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the dynamics between them. Because they all live so near each other and are in each others' lives, there are ongoing dislikes and personality conflicts and such, but I'm never privy to exactly what's behind them. (And being stereotypical Midwesterners, they don't talk about them in anything other than passive-aggressive terms.)
One of my cousins is married to a woman I've always really liked. She's a lot more straightforward than anyone else in the family. Says what she means, and doesn't shy away from stating an unpopular opinion. It's refreshing! From the first time I met her, though, it became clear that a lot of my (women) relatives -- my dear, wonderful, loving grandmother included -- did not like her. I always kind of assumed that it was because she had the gall to speak her mind, but I could never reconcile that with the depth of the grudge some of them held against her.
I was up there visiting one time, and the cousin and his wife had been over for dinner, and things got so uncomfortable after dessert that, after they left, I finally asked what the hell people had against her. There had to be some deep dark secret that, living so far away, I knew nothing about. I was wondering whether she'd cheated on him, or beat their kids, or was a closet alcoholic -- I mean, it had to be something really dark.
The answer: She never helped clean up after dinner.
This was an awesome woman who was raising their three awesome great-granddaughters/granddaughters/nieces/cousins while being awesome herself, and they hated her because she'd never helped clean the table -- which, in my family, is a prescribed task for the women, and the women only.
It baffles me.
But hey, according to some other random bloke, I just need to get over it right? I'm letting grudges and point scoring kill my marriage. It's never the fucking asshole acting like an asshole over and over again, it's because my capacity for forgiveness doesn't extend to killing myself completely.
geek anachronism, this sucks so much. I faced a similar issue with my partner last year, in that an assault I experienced as a teenager came up in a sort of unexpected way. Unexpected to me, anyway. My partner dropped it as a bomb during a session with a couple's therapist, and she used it as her own personal weapon in an argument, designating the assault as The Thing that must make me Act The Way I Act.
In the moment was furious with her for doing that and I froze solid. Later that day, though, it completely descended on me like a flood. It was never something I'd dealt with -- never something I even told people about, other than that I'd had a "bad experience." It being sprung on me, like that, in front of a third party, was the motherfucking trigger to end motherfucking triggers.
I told her how much it had upset me, and told her she needed not to do that again. But when it finally sank in with her how much I *was* upset by it (hello, jumping at my own reflection in the mirror!), I ended up having to comfort her. Which, fuck no. My sexual assault is not something I'm going to make *you* feel okay about.
Allie Brosh's "Depression, Part 2" comic has this bit I've always loved, because it is so spot on. She's talking about how she'd become so depressed that she didn't want to be alive anymore. She didn't want to kill herself necessarily -- she just didn't want to be alive. And in finally telling that to someone, she had to make them feel better about it. ("I'm really sorry. Can I get you some juice or something?")
This is such an inherited thing. Our emotions (my depression!) and our experiences (having been sexual assaulted!) are things that make other people frown and furrow their brows. They make people uncomfortable. So we apologize. We fucking apologize! I've been apologizing for my depression for a couple of years now, rather than leaving this relationship that is partially causing my depression!
Jesus. Is there a tip jar in this thread anywhere? Because it feels like you should all be getting a therapist's pay. Or at least contributions toward the bar tab.
Secret Life of Gravy, I'm glad you're back!
posted by mudpuppie at 10:06 AM on July 19, 2015 [66 favorites]
The author ignores that another reason why this role falls disproportionately on women is because men in our society no longer have strong connections amongst ourselves and maybe have never had a language to support each other.
Gosh when was this utopia when men cared about emotional labor? Because I certainly can't think of an era when that was the case.
posted by winna at 10:06 AM on July 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
Gosh when was this utopia when men cared about emotional labor? Because I certainly can't think of an era when that was the case.
posted by winna at 10:06 AM on July 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
Part of my point is that it's not always men. Women in relationships can do this shit to each other too.
Which, on preview, is not a response to you, winna. Just a general comment.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:12 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Which, on preview, is not a response to you, winna. Just a general comment.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:12 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Oh absolutely! I am so sorry, mudpuppie. Blindsiding you with your trauma to a third party to win an argument is absoute garbage.
posted by winna at 10:13 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by winna at 10:13 AM on July 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sweetkid, you say he was mad... Was he speaking in an angry tone? Because his words do not sound angry to me.
You know, you could have just believed sweetkid when she said "he was mad" instead of requiring her to justify it. This is an extremely, extremely common form of emotional labor demanded of women and it SUCKS. Why do you get to be the self-appointed arbiter of whether he was actually angry?
Yes, that does sound pretty rude, I agree. I mean, you HAD already given him a no.
Oh, good, you do agree that her perceptions were correct. What a relief.
posted by Lexica at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2015 [94 favorites]
You know, you could have just believed sweetkid when she said "he was mad" instead of requiring her to justify it. This is an extremely, extremely common form of emotional labor demanded of women and it SUCKS. Why do you get to be the self-appointed arbiter of whether he was actually angry?
Yes, that does sound pretty rude, I agree. I mean, you HAD already given him a no.
Oh, good, you do agree that her perceptions were correct. What a relief.
posted by Lexica at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2015 [94 favorites]
The author ignores that another reason why this role falls disproportionately on women is because men in our society no longer have strong connections amongst ourselves and maybe have never had a language to support each other.
Also, even if this were true, what does it have to do with the price of tea in China. It makes absolutely no sense in the context of this discussion, which is largely about how women are expected to do the emotional work in relationships, not about how dudes have trouble connecting to other dudes.
posted by winna at 10:18 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also, even if this were true, what does it have to do with the price of tea in China. It makes absolutely no sense in the context of this discussion, which is largely about how women are expected to do the emotional work in relationships, not about how dudes have trouble connecting to other dudes.
posted by winna at 10:18 AM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
And now I want to link to this thread in every relationship question on the Green.
posted by jeoc at 10:31 AM on July 19, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by jeoc at 10:31 AM on July 19, 2015 [21 favorites]
You know, you could have just believed sweetkid when she said "he was mad" instead of requiring her to justify it.
It was a matter of not understanding, and yes, I could have opted to believe without understanding. Sweetkid gave me a simple 'yes', which was a kind thing to do, and that was all I needed to know to both believe AND understand.
I'm not a native speaker of English and so I often miss nuances and emotions if I just have the words that were said, and no information about the tone.
Why do you get to be the self-appointed arbiter of whether he was actually angry?
I don't, and it's unkind to imply that I want to. I just wanted to understand the story.
Oh, good, you do agree that her perceptions were correct. What a relief.
Of course. Why wouldn't I? I wasn't there and Sweetkid sounds smart enough to know what was going on. I'm glad you're relieved.
And I'm letting this go now.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:31 AM on July 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
It was a matter of not understanding, and yes, I could have opted to believe without understanding. Sweetkid gave me a simple 'yes', which was a kind thing to do, and that was all I needed to know to both believe AND understand.
I'm not a native speaker of English and so I often miss nuances and emotions if I just have the words that were said, and no information about the tone.
Why do you get to be the self-appointed arbiter of whether he was actually angry?
I don't, and it's unkind to imply that I want to. I just wanted to understand the story.
Oh, good, you do agree that her perceptions were correct. What a relief.
Of course. Why wouldn't I? I wasn't there and Sweetkid sounds smart enough to know what was going on. I'm glad you're relieved.
And I'm letting this go now.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:31 AM on July 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
... and they hated her because she'd never helped clean the table -- which, in my family, is a prescribed task for the women, and the women only.
...
It baffles me.
I suspect that if you could read their minds or get them to state the truth, the thought they are not vocalizing is "she thinks she's better than us." (Which is not at all what she thinks. She thinks the labor should be reapportioned in a non sexist way.)
(Man I just don't know if my reflex to guess what other people are thinking counts as emotional labor or if it's me just being unable to stop peering into other people's business and having opinions.)
posted by puddledork at 10:37 AM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
...
It baffles me.
I suspect that if you could read their minds or get them to state the truth, the thought they are not vocalizing is "she thinks she's better than us." (Which is not at all what she thinks. She thinks the labor should be reapportioned in a non sexist way.)
(Man I just don't know if my reflex to guess what other people are thinking counts as emotional labor or if it's me just being unable to stop peering into other people's business and having opinions.)
posted by puddledork at 10:37 AM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I suspect that if you could read their minds or get them to state the truth, the thought they are not vocalizing is "she thinks she's better than us."
Possibly! I think it's probably more accurately "she thinks she doesn't have to follow the rules" in a culture (and subculture) where rule-following is good and rule-ignoring is bad, regardless of what the rules are or who made them.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:40 AM on July 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
Possibly! I think it's probably more accurately "she thinks she doesn't have to follow the rules" in a culture (and subculture) where rule-following is good and rule-ignoring is bad, regardless of what the rules are or who made them.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:40 AM on July 19, 2015 [14 favorites]
Conversations like this make it more visible. But how can we all express the value of this labor without seeming whiny?
I can only speak for myself, but I didn't have a lot of good models for some of this growing up, and as a (still recently) minted adult, I'm struggling to find the best tack for myself. I think it would have been helpful to hear more of it spelled out while growing up: that relationships of all kinds require reciprocity and work, that your friends and family should be supported when they need it, that thank you cards and notes and phone calls are tangible reminders of friendship and support and that they can really matter. I wish I was better at thank you cards and phone calls because a lot of people have given me a lot of support, and the (usually) female relatives and friends who made it happen deserve to know that it mattered. I wish I had had been given the vocabulary of this thread growing up, that I could have built better relationships and sidestepped unworthy ones. And maybe, sometimes, I will express the value of this labor by not stepping up to volunteer at events-- events where the only volunteers are women, events run by and managed by only women, events that do not get credit and which are expected but not rewarded. I don't know how to not volunteer without causing more work for others, but maybe this thread will help me better articulate the value of this work when it comes up throughout the year, and maybe that articulation of the value will finally help it sink in so that these events are sustainable and supported by everyone.
Anyway, I don't have kids, but I will save this thread, and I will remember.
And the next time I'm in the same time zone as my best friends, they're all getting flowers. 'It is bread we fight for—but we fight for roses, too.'
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:48 AM on July 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
I can only speak for myself, but I didn't have a lot of good models for some of this growing up, and as a (still recently) minted adult, I'm struggling to find the best tack for myself. I think it would have been helpful to hear more of it spelled out while growing up: that relationships of all kinds require reciprocity and work, that your friends and family should be supported when they need it, that thank you cards and notes and phone calls are tangible reminders of friendship and support and that they can really matter. I wish I was better at thank you cards and phone calls because a lot of people have given me a lot of support, and the (usually) female relatives and friends who made it happen deserve to know that it mattered. I wish I had had been given the vocabulary of this thread growing up, that I could have built better relationships and sidestepped unworthy ones. And maybe, sometimes, I will express the value of this labor by not stepping up to volunteer at events-- events where the only volunteers are women, events run by and managed by only women, events that do not get credit and which are expected but not rewarded. I don't know how to not volunteer without causing more work for others, but maybe this thread will help me better articulate the value of this work when it comes up throughout the year, and maybe that articulation of the value will finally help it sink in so that these events are sustainable and supported by everyone.
Anyway, I don't have kids, but I will save this thread, and I will remember.
And the next time I'm in the same time zone as my best friends, they're all getting flowers. 'It is bread we fight for—but we fight for roses, too.'
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:48 AM on July 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
Ooo, I've got a good one for you re: volunteering, jetlagaddict. You should read Susan Shapiro's essay "Quitting Guilt" in The Modern Jewish Girl's Guide to Guilt. You do not have to be immersed in Jewish culture to appreciate it—I made copies of it for the women in my old office who were forever volunteering time they didn't have and then resenting it. I think it was also, looking back, part of an effort on my part to recognize and try to curb the emotional labor we were all being expected to perform for our male and female colleagues alike. This was another book I read and then bought during my time working at the college bookstore—come to think of it, that bookstore was pretty well-stocked with feminist lit—and I highly recommend it.
posted by limeonaire at 11:03 AM on July 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 11:03 AM on July 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
It's frustrating that it felt like a small victory to me to just say "I have a phone charger, but I need it. For myself."
This is exactly how I felt today when a friend of mine who I had made plans with disappeared on me without telling me he couldn't make it. I am irritated when people do that, but, usually, I feel that making them feel comfortable is way more important than my petty irritation over friends being late or leaving me at a loose end after we had decided to do something together and I'd made the time and factored it into my plans. But today when he said, "Yeah, BTW, sorry I didn't reply to that message, I was busy with X", I squashed down my automatic reply ("oh, that's ok, I understand") and told him instead that in any case I did not appreciate it and I wanted to be notified in the future. I got a surprised silence at the other end and immediately felt ashamed... but didn't apologize. It was my small victory.
posted by Guelder at 11:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [51 favorites]
This is exactly how I felt today when a friend of mine who I had made plans with disappeared on me without telling me he couldn't make it. I am irritated when people do that, but, usually, I feel that making them feel comfortable is way more important than my petty irritation over friends being late or leaving me at a loose end after we had decided to do something together and I'd made the time and factored it into my plans. But today when he said, "Yeah, BTW, sorry I didn't reply to that message, I was busy with X", I squashed down my automatic reply ("oh, that's ok, I understand") and told him instead that in any case I did not appreciate it and I wanted to be notified in the future. I got a surprised silence at the other end and immediately felt ashamed... but didn't apologize. It was my small victory.
posted by Guelder at 11:05 AM on July 19, 2015 [51 favorites]
I don't know how to not volunteer without causing more work for others....
I don't remember where I read this, but the thought was basically: just let it happen or not happen without you. You'll often find that if you don't step up, it either slowly withers away or stops outright, and for the most part the world is just fine without it.
Now of course there are things which are worthy and serve society as a larger whole, but often those things aren't what we're discussing here. What will happen if you don't hold the bake sale? What if you hold an un-bake-sale? The scholarship development lead of a women's group I work with lost her shit at the beginning of the year and declared that this year would be the un-bake-sale year. Instead of staying up all night and baking stuff only to give it away 8 hours later because most people wanted to just donate money and didn't necessarily want the food, she suggested just putting up a table, with donation jars and a few people manning it with Square readers. They made almost twice as much money. But dear gods, back in January you would have thought she'd suggested slaughtering puppies for cash. "But people expect piiiiieeeesss!" Expect, yes, but want, no, and yay un-bake-sale!
Another good example was a local GLBTA* group of which I was a part .... a few years ago, I was the lead and I was the only one running anything, and people rarely showed up. There was another lead, but he was "just an idea guy" (eye-roll). So I quit. And there hasn't been another event since, but I don't think anyone misses it, because no one else is doing them so ... obviously they aren't missed?
Sometimes when you quit you're not creating extra work for others, you're just removing it from yourself.
posted by RogueTech at 11:09 AM on July 19, 2015 [54 favorites]
I don't remember where I read this, but the thought was basically: just let it happen or not happen without you. You'll often find that if you don't step up, it either slowly withers away or stops outright, and for the most part the world is just fine without it.
Now of course there are things which are worthy and serve society as a larger whole, but often those things aren't what we're discussing here. What will happen if you don't hold the bake sale? What if you hold an un-bake-sale? The scholarship development lead of a women's group I work with lost her shit at the beginning of the year and declared that this year would be the un-bake-sale year. Instead of staying up all night and baking stuff only to give it away 8 hours later because most people wanted to just donate money and didn't necessarily want the food, she suggested just putting up a table, with donation jars and a few people manning it with Square readers. They made almost twice as much money. But dear gods, back in January you would have thought she'd suggested slaughtering puppies for cash. "But people expect piiiiieeeesss!" Expect, yes, but want, no, and yay un-bake-sale!
Another good example was a local GLBTA* group of which I was a part .... a few years ago, I was the lead and I was the only one running anything, and people rarely showed up. There was another lead, but he was "just an idea guy" (eye-roll). So I quit. And there hasn't been another event since, but I don't think anyone misses it, because no one else is doing them so ... obviously they aren't missed?
Sometimes when you quit you're not creating extra work for others, you're just removing it from yourself.
posted by RogueTech at 11:09 AM on July 19, 2015 [54 favorites]
There are two small things I'd like to add here.
Where I work everyone is responsible for bringing in their own birthday treats if they want them. This solves a number of issues like: hurt feelings if people forget, what to do about competent but difficult people that are mostly disliked, and if you don't feel like celebrating at work you don't have to. It's your birthday and you get to own it in a way that isn't otherwise possible. I fully plan on advocating for a similar set up at any future jobs.
I've realized in reading this thread that I've had my own vocabulary and way of thinking about this for some time. Simply put, good will is a commodity and a perishable one at that. Every time you ask for a favor or someone's time, you are spending it. Doing favors or giving someone your time accrues it. This helped me understand why I don't always want a particular persons help, I don't want to owe them good will. It's perishable because what have you done for me lately is a legitimate question. Just because you did that one thing that one time however many years ago doesn't mean you are still entitled to whatever good will was accrued. Ill will is a separate but related thing that is much more shelf stable, earned from being some flavor of jerk, though you also spend good will to get it.
posted by Meeks Ormand at 12:24 PM on July 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
Where I work everyone is responsible for bringing in their own birthday treats if they want them. This solves a number of issues like: hurt feelings if people forget, what to do about competent but difficult people that are mostly disliked, and if you don't feel like celebrating at work you don't have to. It's your birthday and you get to own it in a way that isn't otherwise possible. I fully plan on advocating for a similar set up at any future jobs.
I've realized in reading this thread that I've had my own vocabulary and way of thinking about this for some time. Simply put, good will is a commodity and a perishable one at that. Every time you ask for a favor or someone's time, you are spending it. Doing favors or giving someone your time accrues it. This helped me understand why I don't always want a particular persons help, I don't want to owe them good will. It's perishable because what have you done for me lately is a legitimate question. Just because you did that one thing that one time however many years ago doesn't mean you are still entitled to whatever good will was accrued. Ill will is a separate but related thing that is much more shelf stable, earned from being some flavor of jerk, though you also spend good will to get it.
posted by Meeks Ormand at 12:24 PM on July 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
I am just now reading this amazing thread. I think my wife, my daughter and I will have a very interesting discussion about emotional labor at dinner tonight. My wife and I have been very happily married for almost 17 years now, and I think one of the reasons for that - which neither of us really understood well enough to put into words - is that I think we have a pretty decent division of emotional labor. I am eager to see if she agrees with my interpretation.
I have to say though, I was thinking about this thread and this issue so deeply while I was just in the shower, that I neglected to shampoo my hair. Who's doing that emotional labor for me, huh?
Thanks, MetaFilter, for changing my outlook on the world with a single thread yet again.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:24 PM on July 19, 2015 [17 favorites]
I have to say though, I was thinking about this thread and this issue so deeply while I was just in the shower, that I neglected to shampoo my hair. Who's doing that emotional labor for me, huh?
Thanks, MetaFilter, for changing my outlook on the world with a single thread yet again.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:24 PM on July 19, 2015 [17 favorites]
I'm going to make a special point of telling my brother that I admire how good he is at emotional labor the next time I talk to him. He's considerably better at it than I am, and miles better than any other man I've met who isn't in a caring profession. I don't really know how or why that happened, but I feel like I should let him know I appreciate what a good job he does with it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:26 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:26 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think for anyone trying to figure out how to be the crone they wish to see in the world (thanks for that phrase), the first step is to start talking out loud about emotional labor.
Tell your brother (and other people in the family about your brother), bring it up in your work reviews, ask your friends about their experience, call out abuse/misuse of it in those volunteer situations and the office "fun committee" and at home. Point it out to your kids when they do it, when they are exposed to it, teach them how to have boundaries and not exploit others'. Back your friends up when they draw a line.
You can't change anybody, is my refrain over in AskMe, but you can influence. And you can make it more difficult to blatantly disregard.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:50 PM on July 19, 2015 [36 favorites]
Tell your brother (and other people in the family about your brother), bring it up in your work reviews, ask your friends about their experience, call out abuse/misuse of it in those volunteer situations and the office "fun committee" and at home. Point it out to your kids when they do it, when they are exposed to it, teach them how to have boundaries and not exploit others'. Back your friends up when they draw a line.
You can't change anybody, is my refrain over in AskMe, but you can influence. And you can make it more difficult to blatantly disregard.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:50 PM on July 19, 2015 [36 favorites]
Whoa, mudpuppie's comment about her family above clarified some things about mine for me.
My mom got along okay with my favorite aunt, who died a few years ago, on the surface level. More than once, however, I heard her refer to said aunt as "a bit humorless," and speculate that I got on with her so well because I have "humorless" tendencies myself.
I'm pretty sure now, having read this thread, that what my mom meant was " aunt does not perform emotional labor in the way I wish she would." My aunt did not sugar coat her suggestions and ideas to people; not in a cruel way, just a blunt one that did not involve her focusing her own emotional labor on comforting you. When I had trouble with my first job, aunt's reaction was along the lines of "okay, your boss sounds like a jerk, but she wants you to come up with a list of accommodations for your non-existent disability, let's come up with some that will help you while not totally bowing to your boss' bullshit." All business, just enough comfort to get me stable enough to get the business done. When I talked about my critiques of the musical Rent (topic for a whole 'nother thread), she asked me pointed questions to substantiate and engaged with me like an adult and, more importantly, didn't make me try and reassure her when she expressed different beliefs from me.
Meanwhile, mom's been on me for years about every thank you card, every host gift, every please and thank you, every time I tried to engage politically with her in a way that she disagrees with. It's the combination of her having rigid ideas about politeness, and me having vaguely spectrum-y tendencies, which makes her think that I take things too literally and won't remember to do emotional work unless she reminds me. (Woohoo autism stereotypes!) I think now that, in my aunt, my mom saw a successful, well-respected woman who didn't do the little placating things she was always on my ass about, and that felt threatening.
I love my mom, don't get me wrong, but my aunt is the model of feminism I aspire to.
posted by ActionPopulated at 1:07 PM on July 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
My mom got along okay with my favorite aunt, who died a few years ago, on the surface level. More than once, however, I heard her refer to said aunt as "a bit humorless," and speculate that I got on with her so well because I have "humorless" tendencies myself.
I'm pretty sure now, having read this thread, that what my mom meant was " aunt does not perform emotional labor in the way I wish she would." My aunt did not sugar coat her suggestions and ideas to people; not in a cruel way, just a blunt one that did not involve her focusing her own emotional labor on comforting you. When I had trouble with my first job, aunt's reaction was along the lines of "okay, your boss sounds like a jerk, but she wants you to come up with a list of accommodations for your non-existent disability, let's come up with some that will help you while not totally bowing to your boss' bullshit." All business, just enough comfort to get me stable enough to get the business done. When I talked about my critiques of the musical Rent (topic for a whole 'nother thread), she asked me pointed questions to substantiate and engaged with me like an adult and, more importantly, didn't make me try and reassure her when she expressed different beliefs from me.
Meanwhile, mom's been on me for years about every thank you card, every host gift, every please and thank you, every time I tried to engage politically with her in a way that she disagrees with. It's the combination of her having rigid ideas about politeness, and me having vaguely spectrum-y tendencies, which makes her think that I take things too literally and won't remember to do emotional work unless she reminds me. (Woohoo autism stereotypes!) I think now that, in my aunt, my mom saw a successful, well-respected woman who didn't do the little placating things she was always on my ass about, and that felt threatening.
I love my mom, don't get me wrong, but my aunt is the model of feminism I aspire to.
posted by ActionPopulated at 1:07 PM on July 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
It is work to CARE.
sio42, you just made me realize, not to get all "grand unified theory of emotion" about this, but this is where this thing I came up with maybe 10 years ago that I dubbed "stalker theory" might fit in, I think. I'm realizing that one of the things I've mulled over a lot regarding interpersonal relationships has had to do with emotional labor and caring or lack thereof, and who's allowed or expected to care about certain things. I always hated the word "caring" when I was a kid, and I think it's because I felt acutely that there was an expectation that as a girl I would be a "caring" person, but I didn't really receive modeling of what that meant (perhaps similar to how my kind of spacey artist mother never really taught me about hairstyles or how to dress up, and perhaps related to the fact that I've always been clearly genderqueer and mentally not super feminine). So when other girls were cooing over their mothers and writing them the expected cards for the Mother's Day writing contest, for instance, I just felt frustrated that I was expected to perform this vision of what it meant to care about my mother and celebrate her, one that all the other girls seemed to have a better vocabulary for.
But yeah, regarding stalker theory, I have a bit more nuanced view of this now, but basically, there's so much policing that occurs around what is an acceptable level of caring about other people and when caring is expected and when it's excessive. You care—about your feelings, this guy's feelings, and his girlfriend's feelings, as well as the feelings of any observers—and so you're turning this around in your head. It's not a bad thing to care, and as noted above, there are lots of cases where women are expected to innately care about others and their perceptions. But if you were to mention this to anyone in that circle, you would probably immediately be confronted by confusion and/or labeling, just by dint of being in a situation where someone else's lack of caring left your head spinning and you dared to talk about it. It's the kind of thing you can't talk about too much, lest people start to think you're inappropriately dwelling on something, when in reality, it sounds like you were totally being led on by this guy, as evidenced by his confused reaction when you spoke to his girlfriend.
This is the kind of thing that's crazymaking about being a woman in our society, and it's related to what all of us in this thread are saying when we mention we've often carried out entire arguments with people, frequently with men whose behavior we're second-guessing, in our heads. We have these conversations because it's deemed totally inappropriate and pathological to have these discussions pinning others down with regard to the emotional labor their actions have necessitated and/or letting them know we care about whatever might have happened once upon a time in the past.
It is messed up. And we have to find ways to talk about it. This thread is also great for that reason.
posted by limeonaire at 1:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
sio42, you just made me realize, not to get all "grand unified theory of emotion" about this, but this is where this thing I came up with maybe 10 years ago that I dubbed "stalker theory" might fit in, I think. I'm realizing that one of the things I've mulled over a lot regarding interpersonal relationships has had to do with emotional labor and caring or lack thereof, and who's allowed or expected to care about certain things. I always hated the word "caring" when I was a kid, and I think it's because I felt acutely that there was an expectation that as a girl I would be a "caring" person, but I didn't really receive modeling of what that meant (perhaps similar to how my kind of spacey artist mother never really taught me about hairstyles or how to dress up, and perhaps related to the fact that I've always been clearly genderqueer and mentally not super feminine). So when other girls were cooing over their mothers and writing them the expected cards for the Mother's Day writing contest, for instance, I just felt frustrated that I was expected to perform this vision of what it meant to care about my mother and celebrate her, one that all the other girls seemed to have a better vocabulary for.
But yeah, regarding stalker theory, I have a bit more nuanced view of this now, but basically, there's so much policing that occurs around what is an acceptable level of caring about other people and when caring is expected and when it's excessive. You care—about your feelings, this guy's feelings, and his girlfriend's feelings, as well as the feelings of any observers—and so you're turning this around in your head. It's not a bad thing to care, and as noted above, there are lots of cases where women are expected to innately care about others and their perceptions. But if you were to mention this to anyone in that circle, you would probably immediately be confronted by confusion and/or labeling, just by dint of being in a situation where someone else's lack of caring left your head spinning and you dared to talk about it. It's the kind of thing you can't talk about too much, lest people start to think you're inappropriately dwelling on something, when in reality, it sounds like you were totally being led on by this guy, as evidenced by his confused reaction when you spoke to his girlfriend.
This is the kind of thing that's crazymaking about being a woman in our society, and it's related to what all of us in this thread are saying when we mention we've often carried out entire arguments with people, frequently with men whose behavior we're second-guessing, in our heads. We have these conversations because it's deemed totally inappropriate and pathological to have these discussions pinning others down with regard to the emotional labor their actions have necessitated and/or letting them know we care about whatever might have happened once upon a time in the past.
It is messed up. And we have to find ways to talk about it. This thread is also great for that reason.
posted by limeonaire at 1:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
Also, with my parents, caring on my mother's part just begot more abuse and more demands to modulate her voice and emotions and interests to suit my father, so that was perhaps another reason I grew up with out-of-the-box ideas about what exactly caring meant—and maybe, in some sense, that's a boon, because it's meant that I've thought more about this sort of thing than women to whom caring came more easily. Anyway, if anyone wants to know why I became a psych major and a journalist and then a project manager, rather than continuing on the development side of computer science (I took CS101 and Calc II with the idea that I might go in that direction in college), this might give you some background to understand that, too. It's the result of a fascination with people and process that started with some of these issues.
P.S. Why the hell was it a contest to show how much you loved your mother? I think that's another aspect of that whole thing that never made sense to me. It was like, not only do I have to perform the act of caring, I have to do it for an audience that will judge me on how well I evidence that I care for my mother. How fucked up is that?
posted by limeonaire at 1:44 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
P.S. Why the hell was it a contest to show how much you loved your mother? I think that's another aspect of that whole thing that never made sense to me. It was like, not only do I have to perform the act of caring, I have to do it for an audience that will judge me on how well I evidence that I care for my mother. How fucked up is that?
posted by limeonaire at 1:44 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
... and they hated her because she'd never helped clean the table -- which, in my family, is a prescribed task for the women, and the women only.
I suspect that if you could read their minds or get them to state the truth, the thought they are not vocalizing is "she thinks she's better than us."
I think it's more like, "She thinks she's better than this work. Well, shit, I'm better than this work, too. Why can't I not do it, too? Because of him. He thinks he's better than me. I have to do this so he doesn't have to."
Somebody has to clean the damn table. As has been amply evidenced here, men will not clean the damn table. So if one woman refuses to clean the damn table, the other women have to spend more of their time cleaning the damn table than they otherwise would. That's not the main problem, though. That's not the main reason why they hate her. The problem and the reason they hate her is that the one woman's not playing the game makes the game obvious and makes everyone playing it have to look at it, and the game is scarily cruel and demeaning so that it hurts to see it. Cleaning the table is bitchwork. If you do it, you're a menial. By refusing to do it, your husband makes it clear he's not a worthless person. He's perfectly comfortable with you doing it, though. That shows you what he thinks of you.
This thread is so full of pain it hurts to read, and the worst of it is not the terrible stories of lost grandchildren unmourned, grandmothers abandoned at the ends of their lives, wives, lovers and friends left alone and unaided to recover from terrible trauma. The worst was that one liner about being afraid to ask the beloved person to read the thread. How many cringed like me? Because like me you'd had the same thought? You suspect your S.O. will not read the damn thread. And now that you've read the thread, you know what that refusal would mean. It would have been better not to have read the thread, if you were going to go on in the old way, ignoring the terrible thing and muddling along. And what is the new way? Crone Island is where?
So it is easier to hate the one woman who refuses to clean the table on Thanksgiving than to hate the man you live with who refuses to clean the table every night of your life because he doesn't really think of you as a person.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:10 PM on July 19, 2015 [200 favorites]
I suspect that if you could read their minds or get them to state the truth, the thought they are not vocalizing is "she thinks she's better than us."
I think it's more like, "She thinks she's better than this work. Well, shit, I'm better than this work, too. Why can't I not do it, too? Because of him. He thinks he's better than me. I have to do this so he doesn't have to."
Somebody has to clean the damn table. As has been amply evidenced here, men will not clean the damn table. So if one woman refuses to clean the damn table, the other women have to spend more of their time cleaning the damn table than they otherwise would. That's not the main problem, though. That's not the main reason why they hate her. The problem and the reason they hate her is that the one woman's not playing the game makes the game obvious and makes everyone playing it have to look at it, and the game is scarily cruel and demeaning so that it hurts to see it. Cleaning the table is bitchwork. If you do it, you're a menial. By refusing to do it, your husband makes it clear he's not a worthless person. He's perfectly comfortable with you doing it, though. That shows you what he thinks of you.
This thread is so full of pain it hurts to read, and the worst of it is not the terrible stories of lost grandchildren unmourned, grandmothers abandoned at the ends of their lives, wives, lovers and friends left alone and unaided to recover from terrible trauma. The worst was that one liner about being afraid to ask the beloved person to read the thread. How many cringed like me? Because like me you'd had the same thought? You suspect your S.O. will not read the damn thread. And now that you've read the thread, you know what that refusal would mean. It would have been better not to have read the thread, if you were going to go on in the old way, ignoring the terrible thing and muddling along. And what is the new way? Crone Island is where?
So it is easier to hate the one woman who refuses to clean the table on Thanksgiving than to hate the man you live with who refuses to clean the table every night of your life because he doesn't really think of you as a person.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:10 PM on July 19, 2015 [200 favorites]
The worst was that one liner about being afraid to ask the beloved person to read the thread. How many cringed like me? Because like me you'd had the same thought?
There was actually an AskMe I read awhile ago, and I wanted my partner to read it as well because I thought it might be useful to us, but I thought it also might be really upsetting and hurtful to him to hear how some of the users were characterizing behaviors like his (DTMFA stuff). He read the thread and had no feelings about it at all, because he didn't recognize himself in it. This problem in our relationship that has existed for years, and which I have told him about repeatedly, apparently didn't ring any bells to him in terms of his own behavior. Which was painful in its own way.
My partner and I have been together a long time and have kids together. In terms of a lot of the things that fall into the category of emotional labor, he is absolutely terrific: he's a full partner in housework and child-rearing, one of those guys that people used to always ask when our kids were babies and toddlers, "where did you find him?" or [blech] "how did you train him?" Recently I was hanging out with somebody else's six-month-old at a party: I played with the baby, fed the baby a bottle, held the baby while it napped. When it needed a fresh diaper, the mom went to take it from me, and I said, "Oh, no, I'm an old pro at this, if you just hand me the diaper bag, I can take care of this." A couple of people were surprised that I changed the diaper, and I know from my own experience that most people wouldn't. But I thought that, when I'd been having baby-fun for a good 90 minutes or two hours, tossing in a routine diaper change was no biggie. When I told my partner about this later, he was like, "Well, yeah. And besides, if you give back the baby for a diaper change, you might not get your hands on it again."
BUT! But but but but but.
He is one of those people (one of those men, I guess) who will do anything I ask him to do, but will never think of things on his own. If I don't feel well and say, "I'm going to go lie down, can you get the kids fed and to bed?" he'll say, "Sure." But he will never say, "Why don't you go lie down and rest? I'll handle things out here." And something I want very very much is, sometimes, not to have to ask. I want to be noticed and thought of before I bring myself to his attention. I want him to say, once in awhile, "You've been working hard. Why don't you take an afternoon to yourself this week?" or, "Sit down, I'll bring you a cup of tea."
I have a chronic illness, and sometimes it feels like he forgets about it from day to day. He'll ask how I'm feeling, and I'll say I'm not feeling especially well, and he'll say, "What's going on?" Which makes me feel like DID YOU NOT NOTICE THAT I'VE BEEN HAVING A REALLY BAD FLAREUP OF MY SYMPTOMS ALL THIS WEEK? I'd rather he say, "No improvement since yesterday, huh?" or something else that acknowledges that he is paying attention. Or I'll say I don't feel up to doing something, and he'll say, "Why not?" as if he has some kind of short-term memory loss when it comes to my health. And don't even get me started on the times he wants me to help him manage his disappointment that I can't go with him to an event. As if it doesn't suck for me too!
He also, I have now been able to articulate because of this thread, responds to me bringing things up by reacting to the factual rather than the emotional content of what I say. For instance, awhile ago he brought something into our house which he knew could trigger one of the symptoms of my illness. When I told him later that this bothered me, he said, "Oh, I thought it had all cleared out by the time you got home." Whether the house had been sufficiently aired out wasn't the point, to me: to me, the point was that he decided, without consulting me, to do something that might have made me ill, and that felt disrespectful and thoughtless. To him, the important question (until I said, "that's not the point of what I'm saying") was: Did it make me sick? To me, it was: Was he thinking about me and my well-being?
And, finally, he totally does that thing where if I try to talk to him about any of this, he gets upset and I can easily end up taking care of his feelings while still never getting a chance to know for sure I've been heard.
We have a terrific partnership in so many ways. Our relationship is really strong. We are great at solving problems together, we're supportive of each other's interests, we enjoy spending time together, our sex life is very good, we are definitely on Team Us. But at the same time, there is this one little part of my heart that is always broken, and always being broken over and over again, because this doesn't seem to be a thing he can understand well enough to change. And I want it so fucking bad. And every day the are opportunities, big and small, for him to care for me in this way, and he lets them all fly right by him.
I can't decide if it's great that I read this thread, or if I should never have read this thread because talk about your re-opening of wounds. Thanks.
posted by Incoherent Cockroach at 4:17 PM on July 19, 2015 [105 favorites]
There was actually an AskMe I read awhile ago, and I wanted my partner to read it as well because I thought it might be useful to us, but I thought it also might be really upsetting and hurtful to him to hear how some of the users were characterizing behaviors like his (DTMFA stuff). He read the thread and had no feelings about it at all, because he didn't recognize himself in it. This problem in our relationship that has existed for years, and which I have told him about repeatedly, apparently didn't ring any bells to him in terms of his own behavior. Which was painful in its own way.
My partner and I have been together a long time and have kids together. In terms of a lot of the things that fall into the category of emotional labor, he is absolutely terrific: he's a full partner in housework and child-rearing, one of those guys that people used to always ask when our kids were babies and toddlers, "where did you find him?" or [blech] "how did you train him?" Recently I was hanging out with somebody else's six-month-old at a party: I played with the baby, fed the baby a bottle, held the baby while it napped. When it needed a fresh diaper, the mom went to take it from me, and I said, "Oh, no, I'm an old pro at this, if you just hand me the diaper bag, I can take care of this." A couple of people were surprised that I changed the diaper, and I know from my own experience that most people wouldn't. But I thought that, when I'd been having baby-fun for a good 90 minutes or two hours, tossing in a routine diaper change was no biggie. When I told my partner about this later, he was like, "Well, yeah. And besides, if you give back the baby for a diaper change, you might not get your hands on it again."
BUT! But but but but but.
He is one of those people (one of those men, I guess) who will do anything I ask him to do, but will never think of things on his own. If I don't feel well and say, "I'm going to go lie down, can you get the kids fed and to bed?" he'll say, "Sure." But he will never say, "Why don't you go lie down and rest? I'll handle things out here." And something I want very very much is, sometimes, not to have to ask. I want to be noticed and thought of before I bring myself to his attention. I want him to say, once in awhile, "You've been working hard. Why don't you take an afternoon to yourself this week?" or, "Sit down, I'll bring you a cup of tea."
I have a chronic illness, and sometimes it feels like he forgets about it from day to day. He'll ask how I'm feeling, and I'll say I'm not feeling especially well, and he'll say, "What's going on?" Which makes me feel like DID YOU NOT NOTICE THAT I'VE BEEN HAVING A REALLY BAD FLAREUP OF MY SYMPTOMS ALL THIS WEEK? I'd rather he say, "No improvement since yesterday, huh?" or something else that acknowledges that he is paying attention. Or I'll say I don't feel up to doing something, and he'll say, "Why not?" as if he has some kind of short-term memory loss when it comes to my health. And don't even get me started on the times he wants me to help him manage his disappointment that I can't go with him to an event. As if it doesn't suck for me too!
He also, I have now been able to articulate because of this thread, responds to me bringing things up by reacting to the factual rather than the emotional content of what I say. For instance, awhile ago he brought something into our house which he knew could trigger one of the symptoms of my illness. When I told him later that this bothered me, he said, "Oh, I thought it had all cleared out by the time you got home." Whether the house had been sufficiently aired out wasn't the point, to me: to me, the point was that he decided, without consulting me, to do something that might have made me ill, and that felt disrespectful and thoughtless. To him, the important question (until I said, "that's not the point of what I'm saying") was: Did it make me sick? To me, it was: Was he thinking about me and my well-being?
And, finally, he totally does that thing where if I try to talk to him about any of this, he gets upset and I can easily end up taking care of his feelings while still never getting a chance to know for sure I've been heard.
We have a terrific partnership in so many ways. Our relationship is really strong. We are great at solving problems together, we're supportive of each other's interests, we enjoy spending time together, our sex life is very good, we are definitely on Team Us. But at the same time, there is this one little part of my heart that is always broken, and always being broken over and over again, because this doesn't seem to be a thing he can understand well enough to change. And I want it so fucking bad. And every day the are opportunities, big and small, for him to care for me in this way, and he lets them all fly right by him.
I can't decide if it's great that I read this thread, or if I should never have read this thread because talk about your re-opening of wounds. Thanks.
posted by Incoherent Cockroach at 4:17 PM on July 19, 2015 [105 favorites]
The thing with my husband, that I worked out on a long drive last night, is that probably a good half of his enormous fuck ups come from this idea that I am brilliant. I am strong. I do all this emotional labour while under stress so he just has to meet me half way, right? Except that, internalised misogyny and sexism means that his half way is so far on the other side that the amount of work I need to do to get there means I may as well just do it myself. So to him, he was giving me information and not keeping secrets and this is my area of expertise - he just chose a terrible time to do it. To my therapist he's an insensitive jackass. To his brother he's perfectly in the right and I'm a neurotic asshole. To me? I still can't really work out where to be. It's like that Sinfest strip where 'Nique wonders where the person is to look after her, then remembers 'oh that's right I'm a strong independent woman'. I don't want a partner who errs on the side of 'GA can't make decisions on her own' but fucking hell, a little care sometimes is necessary.
The long drive was from where he spent a quarter of his holidays cooking up freezer meals and kid wrangling and keeping chins up at a friend's house who just got a bad diagnosis. I didn't suggest, he didn't request, he just did it. So last night I told him how important that was, that he just did this thing instead of talking about it, or expecting me to do the actual work, and took time out from his holidays to go do it.
But that's still emotional labour. And we're back to the beginning. He realises it, works on it, changes, is changing, it's just with a fuck up that big I don't even know where to start. And I'm still where it starts.
This is the first time I've said anything to anyone about what happened, because I knew that (apart from his brother obviously) everyone would be horrified. And yeah, it's a bit easier to keep it inside and let it eat me than have to actually consider the damage done and expose the wound to the air, and do anything but shut down. And god yes Incoherent Cockroach, the reminding. Why is it fucking surprising and 'hilarious' how I sleep lightly and freak the fuck out when someone comes into my bedroom at night? Why is my flinching funny? It's trauma, but he (and his brother, see a pattern here?) need to be reminded that I don't just get to pretend nothing happened. I don't get to forget the way they do.
Mudpuppie I'm so sorry this happened to you too. I always felt like I was so lucky you know? My partner had never made it all about him, I'd never had to comfort him, I'd never had to do that labour. Then that happened and yeah. Trigger to end all triggers indeed.
And Secret Life of Gravy, that is awful. I can't imagine the thought processes behind that.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:21 PM on July 19, 2015 [37 favorites]
The long drive was from where he spent a quarter of his holidays cooking up freezer meals and kid wrangling and keeping chins up at a friend's house who just got a bad diagnosis. I didn't suggest, he didn't request, he just did it. So last night I told him how important that was, that he just did this thing instead of talking about it, or expecting me to do the actual work, and took time out from his holidays to go do it.
But that's still emotional labour. And we're back to the beginning. He realises it, works on it, changes, is changing, it's just with a fuck up that big I don't even know where to start. And I'm still where it starts.
This is the first time I've said anything to anyone about what happened, because I knew that (apart from his brother obviously) everyone would be horrified. And yeah, it's a bit easier to keep it inside and let it eat me than have to actually consider the damage done and expose the wound to the air, and do anything but shut down. And god yes Incoherent Cockroach, the reminding. Why is it fucking surprising and 'hilarious' how I sleep lightly and freak the fuck out when someone comes into my bedroom at night? Why is my flinching funny? It's trauma, but he (and his brother, see a pattern here?) need to be reminded that I don't just get to pretend nothing happened. I don't get to forget the way they do.
Mudpuppie I'm so sorry this happened to you too. I always felt like I was so lucky you know? My partner had never made it all about him, I'd never had to comfort him, I'd never had to do that labour. Then that happened and yeah. Trigger to end all triggers indeed.
And Secret Life of Gravy, that is awful. I can't imagine the thought processes behind that.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:21 PM on July 19, 2015 [37 favorites]
💔Dear All The Women Who Ever Existed Over The Entire Span Of Human History including every one above... 💗
posted by Thella at 4:34 PM on July 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by Thella at 4:34 PM on July 19, 2015 [19 favorites]
A lot of my emotional labor is tied up in caretaking for my husband, who has bipolar. It means I spend a lot of time reading and managing his moods. He'll do housework but only if I ask him to because he doesn't see it unless it's really obvious (a tower of dishes in the sink), but at least he'll do it cheerfully. And he'll usually pick up on whether if I'm particularly tired and will let me hibernate or will make dinner or whatever I need. But the entire relationship is very lopsided because of his illness, and frequently the whole business is exhausting because I feel like someone who almost always has to be taking the temperature of the room.
I was the oldest in a family with an anxious mom and she has said that she thinks that my childhood caretaking for her was good training for caretaking for my husband. I'm still trying to process that.
posted by PussKillian at 4:55 PM on July 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
I was the oldest in a family with an anxious mom and she has said that she thinks that my childhood caretaking for her was good training for caretaking for my husband. I'm still trying to process that.
posted by PussKillian at 4:55 PM on July 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
And something I want very very much is, sometimes, not to have to ask. I want to be noticed and thought of before I bring myself to his attention.
Mine is one of the thousand pained, silent howls of recognition emitted by those who read and recognized this longing. Thank you for putting words to it, Incoherent Cockroach.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:59 PM on July 19, 2015 [49 favorites]
Mine is one of the thousand pained, silent howls of recognition emitted by those who read and recognized this longing. Thank you for putting words to it, Incoherent Cockroach.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:59 PM on July 19, 2015 [49 favorites]
Except that, internalised misogyny and sexism means that his half way is so far on the other side that the amount of work I need to do to get there means I may as well just do it myself.
Conversation with (ex)partner during our time together developing and operating a boutique accommodation business.
Conversation with (ex)partner during our time together developing and operating a boutique accommodation business.
Me: You don't recognise how much brain work goes into managing the bookings and the marketing, pre-empting problems, maintaining supplies, and making sure that our guests feel really cared for.posted by Thella at 5:09 PM on July 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
Him: I chop the firewood and I help out in the cleaning. I do my fair share.
Me: What's your fair share? 50%? 30%? 20%?
Him: (glaring). I do enough.
💔Dear All The Women Who Ever Existed Over The Entire Span Of Human History yt including every one above... 💗
Thella, thank you so much. I was just in tears on the train.
posted by susiswimmer at 5:12 PM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Thella, thank you so much. I was just in tears on the train.
posted by susiswimmer at 5:12 PM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, PussKillian. I hear you - as I've been reading and processing this thread, I've been thinking about my life as the partner of a man with bipolar disorder. So, so much emotional labor and such heightened feelings around what one can and can't expect of a partner with a serious mental illness. Especially when you have a mental illness too, as I do. It's complicated stuff.
posted by Stacey at 5:21 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 5:21 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I volunteer for Crone Island cocktail duty so long as I can drink some myself as we go along.
This whole thread, though. So amazing. I love you all. I make fantastic alcoholic and non-alcoholic cocktails, and there will always be water on hand and I will never, ever judge your beer/cider tastes. And if you want to just have a jar of those little pickled onions as bar food you are so welcome!
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:22 PM on July 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
This whole thread, though. So amazing. I love you all. I make fantastic alcoholic and non-alcoholic cocktails, and there will always be water on hand and I will never, ever judge your beer/cider tastes. And if you want to just have a jar of those little pickled onions as bar food you are so welcome!
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:22 PM on July 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
something I want very very much is, sometimes, not to have to ask
It's interesting, as this is something that my husband has voiced to me that he wants. You're talking about this in a bit different context than he is—you're talking about being exhausted with childcare and maintenance work and wanting support to come naturally from a recognition of that, rather than being something you have to request. But the language is parallel, and that reminded me of how even this can be turned on its head.
It's something I want, too, to have my desires and needs anticipated and understood and recognized and met. The line, for me, and when it flips into obligation, is when that desire becomes an expectation that one's partner will read one's mind and swoop in to meet any unvoiced need. Then you get into questions of ask vs. guess culture and how to navigate spoken and unspoken expectations and what the nature of the entire contract between men and women is and what you get when you get married. That's where you get the specter of the manic pixie dream girl, and all that that entails.
This makes me think of all writer Richard Bach said about obligation and its effect on relationships, yet how he married a younger woman after he and Leslie divorced.
posted by limeonaire at 5:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's interesting, as this is something that my husband has voiced to me that he wants. You're talking about this in a bit different context than he is—you're talking about being exhausted with childcare and maintenance work and wanting support to come naturally from a recognition of that, rather than being something you have to request. But the language is parallel, and that reminded me of how even this can be turned on its head.
It's something I want, too, to have my desires and needs anticipated and understood and recognized and met. The line, for me, and when it flips into obligation, is when that desire becomes an expectation that one's partner will read one's mind and swoop in to meet any unvoiced need. Then you get into questions of ask vs. guess culture and how to navigate spoken and unspoken expectations and what the nature of the entire contract between men and women is and what you get when you get married. That's where you get the specter of the manic pixie dream girl, and all that that entails.
This makes me think of all writer Richard Bach said about obligation and its effect on relationships, yet how he married a younger woman after he and Leslie divorced.
posted by limeonaire at 5:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Treats at work! Oh god, treats at work! I hate hate hate this. My office is all women (sometimes there are male interns) and we have to make a giant to-do over every birthday. There are three senior managers and the ritual is one brings a baked good, one brings fruit and one brings beverages. Any one of these is kind of a hassle for me - we're a one-car family and my husband commutes to work, so most days I don't have a car handy to make a special grocery run. If I walk to buy beverages from the relatively small selection in town, I'm lugging home gallons of selzter and juice. I don't want to spend my time at home baking. Fruit seems easy but it still requires a grocery run and, unless it's berries, you have to cut it up nicely and arrange it on a plate. Then someone has to get a card, and we all have to sign it, and we all have to participate in eating and having a birthday ritual.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but I've always felt like this is a set of activities I personally don't need in the workplace. I get that birthdays are fun and it can be fun to wish your co-worker a nice birthday, but the production goes above and beyond what I feel is reasonable. Personally, I'd rather just have people say "Oh, it's your birthday? Happy birthday!" and then celebrate in my personal life - I can always invite them to happy hour if I want to hang out. This has always made me feel like an idiot who doesn't know how to relate to co-workers, and that might in part be true, but I also recognize it's that I feel it's misplaced emotional labor.
The whole 'treat economy' at work bugs the hell out of me - the women (always, always) who bring in cookies and brownies for the maintenance team, etc., to express appreciation to that staff for doing their jobs - what is this all about? I feel like if there is a healthy culture of appreciation and recognition in a workplace, baking shouldn't have to be part of our influence model, but you can't fight it. You either participate or become one of those people that never brings cookies. It makes me feel like a grouch that I hate this stuff, but I kind of do. But I have to get along well, so there you are.
posted by Miko at 5:41 PM on July 19, 2015 [43 favorites]
There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but I've always felt like this is a set of activities I personally don't need in the workplace. I get that birthdays are fun and it can be fun to wish your co-worker a nice birthday, but the production goes above and beyond what I feel is reasonable. Personally, I'd rather just have people say "Oh, it's your birthday? Happy birthday!" and then celebrate in my personal life - I can always invite them to happy hour if I want to hang out. This has always made me feel like an idiot who doesn't know how to relate to co-workers, and that might in part be true, but I also recognize it's that I feel it's misplaced emotional labor.
The whole 'treat economy' at work bugs the hell out of me - the women (always, always) who bring in cookies and brownies for the maintenance team, etc., to express appreciation to that staff for doing their jobs - what is this all about? I feel like if there is a healthy culture of appreciation and recognition in a workplace, baking shouldn't have to be part of our influence model, but you can't fight it. You either participate or become one of those people that never brings cookies. It makes me feel like a grouch that I hate this stuff, but I kind of do. But I have to get along well, so there you are.
posted by Miko at 5:41 PM on July 19, 2015 [43 favorites]
Miko, it's so funny you mention that because reading this thread made me think about how emotionally tough the last few weeks at work have been, and how everyone has been stepping up in amazing ways.
I was going to buy muffins tomorrow, because I'm noticing that folks are worn out and need a treat, and it's a cheap way of doing that. (Conversations about promotions are happening, too, but I have fuller control over the muffin timeline.) So I guess it comes from a place of wanting to reward staff and lacking the seniority to do so at will. And I could see that women in the workplace are more likely to be in that position. And crap, now I'm not sure WHAT to do.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:02 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I was going to buy muffins tomorrow, because I'm noticing that folks are worn out and need a treat, and it's a cheap way of doing that. (Conversations about promotions are happening, too, but I have fuller control over the muffin timeline.) So I guess it comes from a place of wanting to reward staff and lacking the seniority to do so at will. And I could see that women in the workplace are more likely to be in that position. And crap, now I'm not sure WHAT to do.
posted by tchemgrrl at 6:02 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
On being noticed, unasked... Growing up, I did not mow the lawn. Now I mow pastures. Last time my husband mowed an overgrown pasture, he accidentally ran over something living, and he felt so awful about it. Knowing that, I have volunteered for thigh-high pasture duty, which is not only slow work, but work that needs to be done twice to chop the weeds fine enough. When I offered to mow this morning, I hoped he would understand why and verbalize it. After, he thanked me for cutting the pasture "because it really needed it." Likewise, when the piglets were born yesterday morning, I dealt with the placenta and the stillborn so that he didn't have to, didn't have to do the necessary and sad thing; was first out to the newborns so he didn't have to discover the scene. Yes, I would like an explicit acknowledgment that he sees this. It's painful not to hear "thank you for doing that so I didn't have to." And it's not that he doesn't do this work too: he has put a pig out of its misery, he has buried cats. But when he does it, I am there to absorb some of the sadness and to help and to say "That was hard. How are you doing?" I will often choose to do this difficult stuff to spare him, and he does not ask how I am, does not acknowledge the care and forethought and understanding that undergird the gesture. It's reassuring to hear "Good work," but an explicit "Thank you for taking that on for love of me" is what would make a difference. It's possible to be a good man and yet to have a blind spot about recognizing the emotional work behind a partner's physical labor.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:09 PM on July 19, 2015 [58 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:09 PM on July 19, 2015 [58 favorites]
It's something I want, too, to have my desires and needs anticipated and understood and recognized and met. The line, for me, and when it flips into obligation, is when that desire becomes an expectation that one's partner will read one's mind and swoop in to meet any unvoiced need.
I've been thinking something similar but having trouble articulating it. There is, and I think should be, an expectation that adults be able to identify their own needs and express those needs in a respectful but clear way (i.e., not passive-aggressively). That's certainly emotional labor, but I think it's a reasonable expectation for all adults. Things can get warped, especially in romantic relationships, when one partner does that emotional work for the other, trying to mindread what the other partner needs rather than expecting them to do the work themselves and communicate it appropriately.
I think what often happens is that the female partner in a mixed-gender relationship often overfunctions in that way, doing her male partner's emotional labor for him and (because women are socialized to ignore our own needs) then not doing the emotional labor for herself, which leads to a logical but maybe not healthy wish that he would do her emotional work for her (since she's to busy doing his!) and read her mind. When it seems like what might be better for everyone is for everyone to do their own work.
Which is not a snap-your-fingers-and-poof!-It's-fixed solution, and which is tangled up in many complicated layers of misogyny and patriarchy (like women being punished for being assertive about our own needs, men being punished for being emotionally aware, and men just opting out of doing the work to meet their partners' needs, even when those needs are clearly expressed). I know that my own solution, after my divorce, has been a mini Crone Island for myself, because thinking about getting into a relationship with another man just makes me feel tired and resentful. I figure my contribution toward fixing any of this is helping clients realize that mindreading, in either direction, usually leads toward resentment over time and that stating one's needs clearly and respectfully is sexy. (I'm not sure they buy it, but I'm working on it.)
posted by jaguar at 6:15 PM on July 19, 2015 [42 favorites]
I've been thinking something similar but having trouble articulating it. There is, and I think should be, an expectation that adults be able to identify their own needs and express those needs in a respectful but clear way (i.e., not passive-aggressively). That's certainly emotional labor, but I think it's a reasonable expectation for all adults. Things can get warped, especially in romantic relationships, when one partner does that emotional work for the other, trying to mindread what the other partner needs rather than expecting them to do the work themselves and communicate it appropriately.
I think what often happens is that the female partner in a mixed-gender relationship often overfunctions in that way, doing her male partner's emotional labor for him and (because women are socialized to ignore our own needs) then not doing the emotional labor for herself, which leads to a logical but maybe not healthy wish that he would do her emotional work for her (since she's to busy doing his!) and read her mind. When it seems like what might be better for everyone is for everyone to do their own work.
Which is not a snap-your-fingers-and-poof!-It's-fixed solution, and which is tangled up in many complicated layers of misogyny and patriarchy (like women being punished for being assertive about our own needs, men being punished for being emotionally aware, and men just opting out of doing the work to meet their partners' needs, even when those needs are clearly expressed). I know that my own solution, after my divorce, has been a mini Crone Island for myself, because thinking about getting into a relationship with another man just makes me feel tired and resentful. I figure my contribution toward fixing any of this is helping clients realize that mindreading, in either direction, usually leads toward resentment over time and that stating one's needs clearly and respectfully is sexy. (I'm not sure they buy it, but I'm working on it.)
posted by jaguar at 6:15 PM on July 19, 2015 [42 favorites]
And crap, now I'm not sure WHAT to do.
Don't overthink that plate of muffins. It's okay. :)
...stating one's needs clearly and respectfully is sexy.
Now I'm trying to fathom how MonkeyToes' husband could have expressed his need that she deal with the stillborn piglet in a sexy way, and it is going all kinds of wrong in my head.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:23 PM on July 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
Don't overthink that plate of muffins. It's okay. :)
...stating one's needs clearly and respectfully is sexy.
Now I'm trying to fathom how MonkeyToes' husband could have expressed his need that she deal with the stillborn piglet in a sexy way, and it is going all kinds of wrong in my head.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:23 PM on July 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
Now I'm trying to fathom how MonkeyToes' husband could have expressed his need that she deal with the stillborn piglet in a sexy way, and it is going all kinds of wrong in my head.
Ha! I was going more for the "Strong, assertive people who know what they want" are sexy, not that the assertiveness be couched in sexiness. "Stillborn piglets" and "sexy" should probably not be combined into one concept, I agree.
posted by jaguar at 6:29 PM on July 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Ha! I was going more for the "Strong, assertive people who know what they want" are sexy, not that the assertiveness be couched in sexiness. "Stillborn piglets" and "sexy" should probably not be combined into one concept, I agree.
posted by jaguar at 6:29 PM on July 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
I am trying to do my own work, as jaguar sensibly suggests, but advocating for fairness in corpse disposal is inherently unsexy.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
But it's still probably sexier than simmering-resentment corpse disposal. On a very wide spectrum of "Sexy" to "Not Sexy."
posted by jaguar at 6:32 PM on July 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 6:32 PM on July 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
MonkeyToes: "And it's not that he doesn't do this work too: he has put a pig out of its misery, he has buried cats. But when he does it, I am there to absorb some of the sadness and to help and to say "That was hard. How are you doing?" I will often choose to do this difficult stuff to spare him, and he does not ask how I am, does not acknowledge the care and forethought and understanding that undergird the gesture."
This makes me curious: Heterosexual couples, who is the one who takes the cats and dogs in to be euthanized?
We took the cat together so my husband could drive me home after I fell apart (as I am the much more emotional one here), but he fell apart SO COMPREHENSIVELY that I had to drive us home because he could not drive for like 24 hours after. I was like "I am so sad this is the saddest thing ever" and he was like "OMG I AM GOING TO DIE OF SORROW."
My mom makes my dad take the pets in for their final visit, but I don't know how long it takes him to drive home after.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:33 PM on July 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
This makes me curious: Heterosexual couples, who is the one who takes the cats and dogs in to be euthanized?
We took the cat together so my husband could drive me home after I fell apart (as I am the much more emotional one here), but he fell apart SO COMPREHENSIVELY that I had to drive us home because he could not drive for like 24 hours after. I was like "I am so sad this is the saddest thing ever" and he was like "OMG I AM GOING TO DIE OF SORROW."
My mom makes my dad take the pets in for their final visit, but I don't know how long it takes him to drive home after.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:33 PM on July 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's like the Kinsey scale, except in this case Kinsey was the name of the gopher that got in the way of the lawnmower.
posted by cortex at 6:39 PM on July 19, 2015 [34 favorites]
posted by cortex at 6:39 PM on July 19, 2015 [34 favorites]
When it seems like what might be better for everyone is for everyone to do their own work.
I understand your larger point about an expectation that adults be able to identify their own needs and express those needs in a respectful but clear way however relationships are an entity of their own. If everyone does their own caring work for themselves, who is going to care for the relationship itself? And if no-one does, does it really exist?
posted by Thella at 6:40 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I understand your larger point about an expectation that adults be able to identify their own needs and express those needs in a respectful but clear way however relationships are an entity of their own. If everyone does their own caring work for themselves, who is going to care for the relationship itself? And if no-one does, does it really exist?
posted by Thella at 6:40 PM on July 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Thella, I was trying to get at more identifying and expressing one's own needs, not necessary taking care of all of them on one's own.
posted by jaguar at 6:44 PM on July 19, 2015
posted by jaguar at 6:44 PM on July 19, 2015
Everything makes me think of this discussion right now, but I was reading this article about cam-girls and got to this:
posted by immlass at 6:44 PM on July 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
And just like at the bar, Valerie has regulars on MyGirlFund—guys she’s been messaging with since she joined. “I have this one guy who’s really awesome, and all he wants to talk to me about is literature and my tattoos,” she said. “He’s requested videos every now and again, but usually we just talk about books and tattoos.”There's your payment for emotional labor.
That kind of relationship isn’t atypical on MyGirlFund. According to Valerie, a lot of the men on the site are just really into the idea of having the somewhat-undivided attention of a young, flirty co-ed. “They’re just older—not like in a creepy way—they’re just older, and they like the idea of talking to a young, 20-something-year-old,” Valerie told Fusion. “Like she’s in college and she’s talking to me, her attention is on me.”
posted by immlass at 6:44 PM on July 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Our office is big on treats. We're mostly a staff of women, and when the former male director tried to switch things over to a "you bring your own treats if you want something on your birthday" it wasn't received very well because he clearly saw it as wasted time that he wasn't interested in and his squashing of it was done with no tact. As soon as he was gone, it went back to the old way. Recently, a new male coworker has, since he started, been the most enthusiastic planner and will sometimes swoop in and arrange for treats before anyone else starts the process. Nobody minds it, and he seems to regard it as emotional labor that is worth it for staff morale (which also involves occasionally taking us out and buying a round of beers.) Thankfully, people can and do feel free to opt out of the birthdays, or to buy instead of bake, and nobody will harass you into eating. It's one of those dynamics that could go toxic but has so far managed to stay positive, I suppose because the labor is spread out over many people and stays a relatively light obligation.
Honestly, all of this makes me want to reread Gaudy Night again and I just got through with a reread. All the work that the women do to keep their college running - placating men from higher up in the university's administration, arguing about whether the secretary with the sick child should be allowed to take time off when it causes the rest of the department to run badly (and therefore maybe women with children shouldn't be hired?), worrying about whether they are being womanly enough or perhaps too womanly...there's a lot of thinking about emotional labor there although of course the term isn't used.
posted by PussKillian at 6:46 PM on July 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
Honestly, all of this makes me want to reread Gaudy Night again and I just got through with a reread. All the work that the women do to keep their college running - placating men from higher up in the university's administration, arguing about whether the secretary with the sick child should be allowed to take time off when it causes the rest of the department to run badly (and therefore maybe women with children shouldn't be hired?), worrying about whether they are being womanly enough or perhaps too womanly...there's a lot of thinking about emotional labor there although of course the term isn't used.
posted by PussKillian at 6:46 PM on July 19, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thella, I was trying to get at more identifying and expressing one's own needs, not necessary taking care of all of them on one's own.
Thinking about that more: I think there can (and should!) be an expectation that both/all partners in a relationship should be feeding the relationship (I like your idea of the relationship-as-entity) and doing thoughtful things for the other(s). I think that where I often see it going off the rails is when one partner desires another partner to do something in addition to what they're already doing but doesn't, for whatever reason, think that they can/should express that need, instead falling back on the idea that the partner "should just know" what they need.
posted by jaguar at 6:54 PM on July 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Thinking about that more: I think there can (and should!) be an expectation that both/all partners in a relationship should be feeding the relationship (I like your idea of the relationship-as-entity) and doing thoughtful things for the other(s). I think that where I often see it going off the rails is when one partner desires another partner to do something in addition to what they're already doing but doesn't, for whatever reason, think that they can/should express that need, instead falling back on the idea that the partner "should just know" what they need.
posted by jaguar at 6:54 PM on July 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
"Stillborn piglets" and "sexy" should probably not be combined into one concept, I agree.
Bryan Fuller disagrees with you there.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:00 PM on July 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
Bryan Fuller disagrees with you there.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:00 PM on July 19, 2015 [8 favorites]
God jaguar I wish I could just, like, hook you up to a megaphone and blast you directly into my ex's ears for all of time.
It's reassuring to hear "Good work," but an explicit "Thank you for taking that on for love of me" is what would make a difference.
This is an incredible thing to say that no one does, explicitly, and I am making it a life goal to say it, or variants of it, as often as possible. The difference between praising the quality of a act and praising the intention of a act has never occurred to me before except negatively ("You tried and that's what counts,") but it is profound.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:18 PM on July 19, 2015 [35 favorites]
It's reassuring to hear "Good work," but an explicit "Thank you for taking that on for love of me" is what would make a difference.
This is an incredible thing to say that no one does, explicitly, and I am making it a life goal to say it, or variants of it, as often as possible. The difference between praising the quality of a act and praising the intention of a act has never occurred to me before except negatively ("You tried and that's what counts,") but it is profound.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:18 PM on July 19, 2015 [35 favorites]
Winna> "Gosh when was this utopia when men cared about emotional labor? Because I certainly can't think of an era when that was the case."
Winna> "Also, even if this were true, what does it have to do with the price of tea in China. It makes absolutely no sense in the context of this discussion, which is largely about how women are expected to do the emotional work in relationships, not about how dudes have trouble connecting to other dudes."
The "price of tea" part: That's fair. I can retract that part and restate the meat of what I was saying. If I couldn't lean on my friends for emotional work as a man ... I don't even have the words for how that would hurt. I would be voided, empty, hallowhearted. When I need the emotional work the most is when I'm least reasonable and least able to return it. They have no obligation to give this to me, but they do any way and that is a type of love. The thought that people in my life could be secretly bitter about vulnerable conversations we've had and not speak up is devastating.
My fear is that the implication that emotional support is a zero sum game is reinforcing traditionally masculine (and harmful) gender roles and encouraging those roles for women to emulate. That is, encouraging women to take on traditionally masculine and harmful roles of emotional distance, invulnerability, stoicism and social independence. "Be the crone." I feel like those values are on display in the "when was that utopia?" snark that was directed at my comment. The "sensitive man" is a media trope so I'm not totally making things up out of thin air.
Hopefully I'm wrong. Hopefully this discussion bouyies traditionally feminine gender roles of vulnerability, sensitivity, and sympathy for both genders to emulate. Those are traits that I've done hard emotional work to build up in myself as a man and I'd like to see other men do that work. Maybe instead of asking for cash money, the ask should be, "remember when I gave you emotional support? Could you copy that behavior and reflect it back at me the next time I need support?"
I see the snark as an opposing opinion to Brene Brown's TED Talks on vulnerability vs shame. "You show me a woman who can actually sit with a man in real vulnerability and fear, I'll show you a woman who's done incredible work. You show me a man who can sit with a woman who's just had it, she can't do it all anymore, and his first response is not, 'I unloaded the dishwasher!' (Laughter) But he really listens -- because that's all we need -- I'll show you a guy who's done a lot of work."
posted by Skwirl at 8:37 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Winna> "Also, even if this were true, what does it have to do with the price of tea in China. It makes absolutely no sense in the context of this discussion, which is largely about how women are expected to do the emotional work in relationships, not about how dudes have trouble connecting to other dudes."
The "price of tea" part: That's fair. I can retract that part and restate the meat of what I was saying. If I couldn't lean on my friends for emotional work as a man ... I don't even have the words for how that would hurt. I would be voided, empty, hallowhearted. When I need the emotional work the most is when I'm least reasonable and least able to return it. They have no obligation to give this to me, but they do any way and that is a type of love. The thought that people in my life could be secretly bitter about vulnerable conversations we've had and not speak up is devastating.
My fear is that the implication that emotional support is a zero sum game is reinforcing traditionally masculine (and harmful) gender roles and encouraging those roles for women to emulate. That is, encouraging women to take on traditionally masculine and harmful roles of emotional distance, invulnerability, stoicism and social independence. "Be the crone." I feel like those values are on display in the "when was that utopia?" snark that was directed at my comment. The "sensitive man" is a media trope so I'm not totally making things up out of thin air.
Hopefully I'm wrong. Hopefully this discussion bouyies traditionally feminine gender roles of vulnerability, sensitivity, and sympathy for both genders to emulate. Those are traits that I've done hard emotional work to build up in myself as a man and I'd like to see other men do that work. Maybe instead of asking for cash money, the ask should be, "remember when I gave you emotional support? Could you copy that behavior and reflect it back at me the next time I need support?"
I see the snark as an opposing opinion to Brene Brown's TED Talks on vulnerability vs shame. "You show me a woman who can actually sit with a man in real vulnerability and fear, I'll show you a woman who's done incredible work. You show me a man who can sit with a woman who's just had it, she can't do it all anymore, and his first response is not, 'I unloaded the dishwasher!' (Laughter) But he really listens -- because that's all we need -- I'll show you a guy who's done a lot of work."
posted by Skwirl at 8:37 PM on July 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm big on thinking of things as spectrums (spectra? What's correct?), but I think it's usually helpful. If there's a spectrum from "totally selflessly nurturing of everyone else" to "completely selfish and absolutely independent," it seems like women are encouraged to be too far to the "selfless" side of that spectrum and men too far to the "selfish" side. It would behoove everyone to move toward a more balanced middle ground, which means most women probably do need to become more selfish and most men probably do need to become more selfless. It doesn't have to be about valuing one over the other (though I know that the kyriarchy often forces a value judgement); it can be about making sure everyone's in balance.
posted by jaguar at 8:58 PM on July 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 8:58 PM on July 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
Maybe instead of asking for cash money, the ask should be, "remember when I gave you emotional support? Could you copy that behavior and reflect it back at me the next time I need support?"
Are you under the impression that we haven't tried this already? Because many of us have tried this. As a result, we have been told that we're imagining the imbalance, that the man buys all the stuff and thinks that's a fair breakdown, that he feels like a terrible person when we ask him to step up (which leads to him sobbing and her back patting, but no change from him), that other men are so much worse and really he's awesome, that we nag too much, that we don't remind him often enough, that we should use a different tone when we ask, that he does perform emotional labor and we just don't notice, that he knows he has privilege, but it's not his fault he was born male.
But before even getting there, you are also suggesting we ask men to notice when we need support. Which (not all men) men are already not doing, and must be taught to do. Or you are suggesting that we request emotional labor at the time we want it. (The classic example of woman complaining about her day at work and the guy offering "solutions" instead of saying "wow that really sucks and it sounds like you handled it well. Can I do something to help you feel better?" Or better still, he just does a thing he knows will make her feel better.)
Many women already/still do these things. Many women have given up because the arguments and assorted emotional labor that stem from such requests are painful and time consuming. Many women never did these things because they saw what it amounted to in the lives of their forebears.
Many women would consider it a great achievement to simply have our emotional labor recognized with any regularity.
posted by bilabial at 9:20 PM on July 19, 2015 [70 favorites]
Are you under the impression that we haven't tried this already? Because many of us have tried this. As a result, we have been told that we're imagining the imbalance, that the man buys all the stuff and thinks that's a fair breakdown, that he feels like a terrible person when we ask him to step up (which leads to him sobbing and her back patting, but no change from him), that other men are so much worse and really he's awesome, that we nag too much, that we don't remind him often enough, that we should use a different tone when we ask, that he does perform emotional labor and we just don't notice, that he knows he has privilege, but it's not his fault he was born male.
But before even getting there, you are also suggesting we ask men to notice when we need support. Which (not all men) men are already not doing, and must be taught to do. Or you are suggesting that we request emotional labor at the time we want it. (The classic example of woman complaining about her day at work and the guy offering "solutions" instead of saying "wow that really sucks and it sounds like you handled it well. Can I do something to help you feel better?" Or better still, he just does a thing he knows will make her feel better.)
Many women already/still do these things. Many women have given up because the arguments and assorted emotional labor that stem from such requests are painful and time consuming. Many women never did these things because they saw what it amounted to in the lives of their forebears.
Many women would consider it a great achievement to simply have our emotional labor recognized with any regularity.
posted by bilabial at 9:20 PM on July 19, 2015 [70 favorites]
Every time people talk about how we should subsitute x for the money I'm reminded of the scene from Mad Men where Peggy complains that she puts in all this work and no one ever says "thank you" and Don snaps "That's what the money is for!"
If only it were that straightforward for any of us. I mean I shared a story in which a man got mad at me, today in 2015, for not immediately handing over something that is legitimately my property. And then someone wanted to ask me in this thread if I was reading the situation correctly. I'm not even entitled to use my own things in public. It's ridiculous. The idea that we would ask for money for all these little moments of pushback, that we must do hundreds of times a week, honestly, in and out of the workplace, doesn't seem at all outlandish to me.
posted by sweetkid at 9:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [72 favorites]
If only it were that straightforward for any of us. I mean I shared a story in which a man got mad at me, today in 2015, for not immediately handing over something that is legitimately my property. And then someone wanted to ask me in this thread if I was reading the situation correctly. I'm not even entitled to use my own things in public. It's ridiculous. The idea that we would ask for money for all these little moments of pushback, that we must do hundreds of times a week, honestly, in and out of the workplace, doesn't seem at all outlandish to me.
posted by sweetkid at 9:30 PM on July 19, 2015 [72 favorites]
I noped out of doing a lot of this about 10 years ago, before I had kids. I am a woman.
Now that I have kids, I live in a mostly white, upper middle neighborhood with lots of moms with similarly aged children. Many of these women have "caring" careers: several nurses, a social worker, even a former nun!
These moms cannot figure me out, because I refuse to spend days planning for "glitter and glue day" or take part in play dates with too damn many women watching a few kids while talking about Upper Middle Class White Mom Problems, much of which is this emotional labor. Nope.
However, I will meet them for drinks if they want to talk about problems beyond getting cloth diapers clean enough, and are ready to put their "mom" role (much of which involes being deep into doing a whole extended family's emotional labor) away for a while and be a real person and talk to me.
I'm the great enigma for these neighbor women. They don't understand why I don't care/participate in the emotional labor role. I occasionally hear that I am gossiped about, that I'm mean, that I'm not their friieeennnd, or even that one of them thought I was trying to be friends and was so pleased about it.
I really only do the work I want to do anymore.
I'm just done. I'm not doing this shit for me, I'm not doing it for my extended family, and I'm not participating in perpetuation of fretting over every tiny detail of every child's life in this neighborhood. Let the kids run free and eat some dirt now and then.
I'm so thankful my neighborhood has lots of stay at home dads, and my children are closest to kids with dads at home. The coordination is so much easier with the dads, and some days I can't even handle coordinating bringing my kid over to some homes because I'm expected to listen to rants about Whole Foods prices. I just don't have time for that. Just let me read a book.
My point is that opting out can make you a weirdo in your community. It can illuminate that you have some preferences for some people and some activities over others, and that makes some people feel rejected even if you aren't specifically rejecting them, but rejecting a flurry of unneeded planning/worry/events.
And my very traditional mother in law really cannot figure me out. Poor dear probably stays up late at night worried about me because I'm not throwing family parties and attending every ice cream social.
posted by littlewater at 9:56 PM on July 19, 2015 [39 favorites]
Now that I have kids, I live in a mostly white, upper middle neighborhood with lots of moms with similarly aged children. Many of these women have "caring" careers: several nurses, a social worker, even a former nun!
These moms cannot figure me out, because I refuse to spend days planning for "glitter and glue day" or take part in play dates with too damn many women watching a few kids while talking about Upper Middle Class White Mom Problems, much of which is this emotional labor. Nope.
However, I will meet them for drinks if they want to talk about problems beyond getting cloth diapers clean enough, and are ready to put their "mom" role (much of which involes being deep into doing a whole extended family's emotional labor) away for a while and be a real person and talk to me.
I'm the great enigma for these neighbor women. They don't understand why I don't care/participate in the emotional labor role. I occasionally hear that I am gossiped about, that I'm mean, that I'm not their friieeennnd, or even that one of them thought I was trying to be friends and was so pleased about it.
I really only do the work I want to do anymore.
I'm just done. I'm not doing this shit for me, I'm not doing it for my extended family, and I'm not participating in perpetuation of fretting over every tiny detail of every child's life in this neighborhood. Let the kids run free and eat some dirt now and then.
I'm so thankful my neighborhood has lots of stay at home dads, and my children are closest to kids with dads at home. The coordination is so much easier with the dads, and some days I can't even handle coordinating bringing my kid over to some homes because I'm expected to listen to rants about Whole Foods prices. I just don't have time for that. Just let me read a book.
My point is that opting out can make you a weirdo in your community. It can illuminate that you have some preferences for some people and some activities over others, and that makes some people feel rejected even if you aren't specifically rejecting them, but rejecting a flurry of unneeded planning/worry/events.
And my very traditional mother in law really cannot figure me out. Poor dear probably stays up late at night worried about me because I'm not throwing family parties and attending every ice cream social.
posted by littlewater at 9:56 PM on July 19, 2015 [39 favorites]
This thread has brought me so much. Thank you.
I'm wishing I could share its lessons with my grandmother, who is still alive, but who wouldn't want to read all of this. She was a flirty teenager; my grandfather was 18 and full of himself; they married when she was 16 and three months pregnant. My grandfather resented her, and the consequences *her* pregnancy had on *his* life -- suddenly he had to join the Navy and get a job and Be Responsible. When my grandfather died three years ago, they'd been married 66 years.
My grandmother lives in a retirement community, and found a boyfriend pretty quickly. When my brother learned this, he worried that Grandma would remarry. I laughed at him, and later, when I shared that with her, her response was resounding. She doesn't say, "Hell, no," but she did firmly say, "No, I've had enough of marriage." This thread has made me understand WHY.
My grandfather was a good man, if you consider what defined a "good man" in the postwar era. But he still demanded, when their youngest child went into high school, that my grandmother go get a job to "try to match his contributions." As though 30 years of cooking every meal from scratch and cleaning the house and growing & putting up food and sewing clothes for the family weren't a contribution.
posted by linettasky at 11:28 PM on July 19, 2015 [47 favorites]
I'm wishing I could share its lessons with my grandmother, who is still alive, but who wouldn't want to read all of this. She was a flirty teenager; my grandfather was 18 and full of himself; they married when she was 16 and three months pregnant. My grandfather resented her, and the consequences *her* pregnancy had on *his* life -- suddenly he had to join the Navy and get a job and Be Responsible. When my grandfather died three years ago, they'd been married 66 years.
My grandmother lives in a retirement community, and found a boyfriend pretty quickly. When my brother learned this, he worried that Grandma would remarry. I laughed at him, and later, when I shared that with her, her response was resounding. She doesn't say, "Hell, no," but she did firmly say, "No, I've had enough of marriage." This thread has made me understand WHY.
My grandfather was a good man, if you consider what defined a "good man" in the postwar era. But he still demanded, when their youngest child went into high school, that my grandmother go get a job to "try to match his contributions." As though 30 years of cooking every meal from scratch and cleaning the house and growing & putting up food and sewing clothes for the family weren't a contribution.
posted by linettasky at 11:28 PM on July 19, 2015 [47 favorites]
"Be the crone." I dunno, maybe it's the Terry Pratchett (a man who understood emotional labour in his books) but to be a crone seems to me to be a person who is wise enough to see that the point of life is developing and sustaining a society in which relationships nurture and interweave to see the worth of the old, the very young, the vulnerable - that what's called "women's work" is really human work.
I'd like to be a crone. I think crones probably have amazing sex.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:50 PM on July 19, 2015 [41 favorites]
I'd like to be a crone. I think crones probably have amazing sex.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:50 PM on July 19, 2015 [41 favorites]
That is, encouraging women to take on traditionally masculine and harmful roles of emotional distance, invulnerability, stoicism and social independence.
I feel like this ignores a large part of the thread and the stories here. The freedom to risk vulnerability is also sometimes the freedom to think that walking away, being distant, refusing, won't leave everything important about yourself behind.
posted by E. Whitehall at 1:20 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
I feel like this ignores a large part of the thread and the stories here. The freedom to risk vulnerability is also sometimes the freedom to think that walking away, being distant, refusing, won't leave everything important about yourself behind.
posted by E. Whitehall at 1:20 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
Skwirl: Hopefully this discussion bouyies traditionally feminine gender roles of vulnerability, sensitivity, and sympathy for both genders to emulate.
As evidenced by the thread, most women don't seem to need to be encouraged to do that more. And it might really be helpful for them to allow themselves, and for society at large to allow them, to do it a little bit less. Because, as you can hopefully see, it wears them (us) down.
So please have the sensitivity to let women choose their own paths here, and state their own needs, and don't tell them to stick to their traditionally assigned roles, for the greater good. That's not helping.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:29 AM on July 20, 2015 [29 favorites]
As evidenced by the thread, most women don't seem to need to be encouraged to do that more. And it might really be helpful for them to allow themselves, and for society at large to allow them, to do it a little bit less. Because, as you can hopefully see, it wears them (us) down.
So please have the sensitivity to let women choose their own paths here, and state their own needs, and don't tell them to stick to their traditionally assigned roles, for the greater good. That's not helping.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:29 AM on July 20, 2015 [29 favorites]
I'd like to be a crone. I think crones probably have amazing sex.
Amazing, but infrequent - because most guys are scared off by the age thing, and then another chunk are scared off by the "damn, she isn't going to buy my bullshit" part.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
Amazing, but infrequent - because most guys are scared off by the age thing, and then another chunk are scared off by the "damn, she isn't going to buy my bullshit" part.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
Guys, why are we even bothering to try to do Skwirl's emotional labor for him?
Let's all send him our bills. Let's work out the rates in MeMail.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:20 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
Let's all send him our bills. Let's work out the rates in MeMail.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:20 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
But how else will we really learn to be self-actualized and reach our full Ted Talk potential?!
posted by winna at 4:22 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by winna at 4:22 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
"You show me a woman who can actually sit with a man in real vulnerability and fear, I'll show you a woman who's done incredible work."
Nah. That just sounds like an average Tuesday to me. Maybe you should talk to more women about the emotional labor they do, so you can grasp how utterly constant it is. We don't need to be lauded or called incredible, we need a damn break from having to do this every single day.
posted by palomar at 5:41 AM on July 20, 2015 [48 favorites]
Nah. That just sounds like an average Tuesday to me. Maybe you should talk to more women about the emotional labor they do, so you can grasp how utterly constant it is. We don't need to be lauded or called incredible, we need a damn break from having to do this every single day.
posted by palomar at 5:41 AM on July 20, 2015 [48 favorites]
There's a clear link here between comparative levels of emotional labor among members of a couple and expectations of "ask culture vs guess culture", but I can't quite distill it into text, but it's something I'm thinking about still.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:45 AM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 5:45 AM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
I was thinking more about this last night, and it struck me that part of the reason a great number of women have so much buried resentment about these issues is because men actually do perform emotional labor so willingly at the beginning of a relationship, which shows that they can do it and they are aware that it exists, right up until the relationship is secure enough that they can designate it “not my job anymore” and tap out.
Setting up special dates based on her preferences, wanting to talk about feelings (because the feelings are all rosy and nice at the beginning, but still), calling just to hear her voice, finding out the little things she likes so he can surprise her with them, being kind to her friends and family, we can watch whatever you want to watch (and meaning it), and on and on. But for a lot of men, these are the means to an end, where the end is a relationship where they never have to do any of these things again.
But for women who end up in relationships that start this way, it is hardly surprising that they feel cheated and duped when the mutual emotional labor disappears and she’s left handling it all by herself. She thought that this man was promising to live this way. She thought being noticed and validated would be long-term. Women consider emotional labor to be the backbone of relationships, not the entry fee.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:47 AM on July 20, 2015 [248 favorites]
Setting up special dates based on her preferences, wanting to talk about feelings (because the feelings are all rosy and nice at the beginning, but still), calling just to hear her voice, finding out the little things she likes so he can surprise her with them, being kind to her friends and family, we can watch whatever you want to watch (and meaning it), and on and on. But for a lot of men, these are the means to an end, where the end is a relationship where they never have to do any of these things again.
But for women who end up in relationships that start this way, it is hardly surprising that they feel cheated and duped when the mutual emotional labor disappears and she’s left handling it all by herself. She thought that this man was promising to live this way. She thought being noticed and validated would be long-term. Women consider emotional labor to be the backbone of relationships, not the entry fee.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:47 AM on July 20, 2015 [248 favorites]
Yes, a fiendish thingy! Brilliant!
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:54 AM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:54 AM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
a fiendish thingy, that's part of the reason I'm not dating anymore... over the past several years I've dated men who have all told me in the break-up process that they never really liked ME. They liked the attention I gave them, the way I would take care of their needs and make them feel loved, but having to match that effort was too much to ask of them.
It's too bad I'm not wired up to be more sexually fluid, so I could date women and not have to be alone. But I'll take being alone forever over ever letting another man use me up and throw me away like that again.
posted by palomar at 5:58 AM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's too bad I'm not wired up to be more sexually fluid, so I could date women and not have to be alone. But I'll take being alone forever over ever letting another man use me up and throw me away like that again.
posted by palomar at 5:58 AM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
Yes, yes, a fiendish thingy, and also: WTF? Why would men stop doing these things when doing these things feels so good? It doesn't feel like work--in fact it isn't work--when it's appreciated and reciprocated. Doing "emotional labor" with my friends is rewarding and wonderful and feels more like... like eating than cooking, because it's all so beautifully repaid: we both leave feeling better and livelier. I don't understand why men are not into it. Doing it is as good for you as having it done unto you. Why, why on earth, would you give your beloved grandmother to your wife to care for and elect not to see her anymore at the end of her life? What in the hell is that if it's not a profound and profoundly hideous unrecognized mental illness afflicting (yes,yes,GDI,notall,GDI) the men?
posted by Don Pepino at 5:58 AM on July 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 5:58 AM on July 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
> I can retract that part and restate the meat of what I was saying.
Dude, knock it off. I know you think you're stating Important Truths that Need to Be Heard, but actually you're just being That Guy Who Shows Up in a Thread about Women and Insists on Making It about Him. Listen and learn.
posted by languagehat at 6:02 AM on July 20, 2015 [56 favorites]
Dude, knock it off. I know you think you're stating Important Truths that Need to Be Heard, but actually you're just being That Guy Who Shows Up in a Thread about Women and Insists on Making It about Him. Listen and learn.
posted by languagehat at 6:02 AM on July 20, 2015 [56 favorites]
What in the hell is that if it's not a profound and profoundly hideous unrecognized mental illness afflicting (yes,yes,GDI,notall,GDI) the men?
(Hey, Don Pepino, I get where you're coming from and I know you likely mean well, but please don't with this bit? Especially considering this is a sensitive intersection of caring for a partner with mental illness and performing emotional labour for a lot of women, some of whom have mental illnesses themselves. I feel like putting it this way sort of flattens out the powerfully complicated issues at hand of choice and willingness and who learns to do this work and who doesn't and how, but that might just be me.)
posted by E. Whitehall at 6:06 AM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
(Hey, Don Pepino, I get where you're coming from and I know you likely mean well, but please don't with this bit? Especially considering this is a sensitive intersection of caring for a partner with mental illness and performing emotional labour for a lot of women, some of whom have mental illnesses themselves. I feel like putting it this way sort of flattens out the powerfully complicated issues at hand of choice and willingness and who learns to do this work and who doesn't and how, but that might just be me.)
posted by E. Whitehall at 6:06 AM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
So that's fascinating to me, fiendish thingy, because it taps into another discussion I've been having recently with a group of female friends elsewhere. Some of them have been divorced and are in the dating world again, involved with partners for several months, and trying to figure out whether these are people with whom they should try marriage again. As they talk this through with other people in the group this theme keeps coming up that these boyfriends should be dancing as hard as they can now to be the best possible partners and prove they're worth marrying, and that obviously after that they'll get lazy, that's to be expected, but they should be on their very best behavior right now until they can get a ring on my friends' fingers.
That conversation is confusing as hell to me, probably because I'm the only one of the group who has opted out of marriage in favor of a long-term (15-year) unmarried partnership, so I don't have the same framework for understanding marriage as those who have experienced it personally. Emotional labor has changed in my relationship over time in ways both good and bad, but not in relation to some specific milestone like a wedding.
So I'm pretty seriously weirded out to find that my good friends explicitly expect and plan for the men in their lives to start off acting one way to get married, and then to change after marriage and become a less-good partner, and that's just...the way it's supposed to be? It feels like something I don't have standing to challenge in these conversations because I know jack about marriage. But I really thought this pattern was something to expect men to break, not to just deal with it by expecting them to dance twice as well as you need them to before marriage so that when they slack off after marriage they'll still be somewhere in the realm of acceptable partners. I want better for my friends and it makes me sad watching them tie themselves into these knots for people they fully expect will let them down later.
posted by Stacey at 6:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
That conversation is confusing as hell to me, probably because I'm the only one of the group who has opted out of marriage in favor of a long-term (15-year) unmarried partnership, so I don't have the same framework for understanding marriage as those who have experienced it personally. Emotional labor has changed in my relationship over time in ways both good and bad, but not in relation to some specific milestone like a wedding.
So I'm pretty seriously weirded out to find that my good friends explicitly expect and plan for the men in their lives to start off acting one way to get married, and then to change after marriage and become a less-good partner, and that's just...the way it's supposed to be? It feels like something I don't have standing to challenge in these conversations because I know jack about marriage. But I really thought this pattern was something to expect men to break, not to just deal with it by expecting them to dance twice as well as you need them to before marriage so that when they slack off after marriage they'll still be somewhere in the realm of acceptable partners. I want better for my friends and it makes me sad watching them tie themselves into these knots for people they fully expect will let them down later.
posted by Stacey at 6:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
I noped out of doing a lot of this about 10 years ago, before I had kids. I am a woman.
These moms cannot figure me out...
I'm the great enigma for these neighbor women. They don't understand why I don't care/participate in the emotional labor role. I occasionally hear that I am gossiped about, that I'm mean, that I'm not their friieeennnd, or even that one of them thought I was trying to be friends and was so pleased about it.
I really only do the work I want to do anymore.
I'm just done...
My point is that opting out can make you a weirdo in your community...
Take out the child factor and this is ringing so many bells for me I might as well be a cathedral. As my chronic illnesses have gotten worse, I've had to deliberately cut back on emotional labor and just focus on my own needs, and it's been amazing how that cuts me off not just in general social terms, but from being thought of as a woman in social and workplace situations. I've been putting a lot of it down to being childless and unmarried at my age, but after this long and informative read I'm starting to be more convinced that a large part of it is just my inability to nurture at all. I'm pulling down my own oxygen mask and probably a lot of people just don't know what to make of that.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:40 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
These moms cannot figure me out...
I'm the great enigma for these neighbor women. They don't understand why I don't care/participate in the emotional labor role. I occasionally hear that I am gossiped about, that I'm mean, that I'm not their friieeennnd, or even that one of them thought I was trying to be friends and was so pleased about it.
I really only do the work I want to do anymore.
I'm just done...
My point is that opting out can make you a weirdo in your community...
Take out the child factor and this is ringing so many bells for me I might as well be a cathedral. As my chronic illnesses have gotten worse, I've had to deliberately cut back on emotional labor and just focus on my own needs, and it's been amazing how that cuts me off not just in general social terms, but from being thought of as a woman in social and workplace situations. I've been putting a lot of it down to being childless and unmarried at my age, but after this long and informative read I'm starting to be more convinced that a large part of it is just my inability to nurture at all. I'm pulling down my own oxygen mask and probably a lot of people just don't know what to make of that.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:40 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
This. This. This. This. This.
I love my boyfriend. A lot. He is wonderful. But. That emotional labor thing. (apparently, this is something that has built up for a while).
I do fieldwork in West Africa; if I am lucky I get to use the internet and call home once a week (twice if things are sparkly and I'm flush with cash to pay 20 dollars for a forty minute phone call). And hey - fieldwork! In a rainforest! With monkeys! Cool stuff, good stories! And also, frustrating times with sexual harassment and frustrating dynamics with other researchers and field workers, and nobody who is an English speaker with whom I can de-stress! An opportune thing to use (at least a portion) of my twenty dollars to achieve.
After about 4 months, I realized that I would have to just say "This is what happened to me and this is what I am thinking about," because he would never ask. But I would hear the minutiae of departmental meetings and problems with students and just detail after detail after detail, and then when he was done, he would say "Well, I guess I'll let you go." Because it didn't occur to him that I would like to share something too. And it never changed. He's always interested, once I start, but it never occurs to him to ask.
We had a huge fight with his brother and sister-in-law, and then his dad had a stroke and all of a sudden things got so choked up and so bottled up and so full of emotion that he had nowhere to put. He was (is) angry all the time. Never *at* me, but - because I am the one who is there, always sort of at me. Driving an hour to visit his dad in the hospital would be an hour of listening to the same rant as the last trip, with me nodding and mhming and suggesting the same things I did during the last rant. His family - aunts, uncles, cousins - and father's friends all called and texted me for medical details after his dad's stroke and then asked me why he hadn't proposed yet. His niece was born and I bought the baby presents and sent the cards because I figured that at SOME POINT in time he'd want to be able to maintain a relationship with his brother and their daughter and he point blank refused to do it (though he agreed it should probably be done). I visited my folks over Christmas and when he called, it was 25 minutes of hearing about him being angry. I didn't receive a Christmas or birthday present because he just wasn't feeling like celebrating, but he really liked what I got him! Very thoughtful. My advisor makes snarky comments about me being a dutiful spouse - and he hopes it won't interfere with my writing as I'm dissertating... His cousin told me every time she sees me post something on facebook, she hopes it's an announcement that we're engaged - why hasn't that happened yet, after 5 years?
So I'm back in the rainforest for the summer, taking a few deep breaths and reevaluating. Feeling guilty that he dealt with our move by himself, that he's home alone without me to be a sounding board. I convinced him to start seeing a psychologist because I "wouldn't be around to listen" for the summer. Maybe things will be easier when I get home? I don't know. He's a great, great guy and I see from reading all these stories that they are almost all great, great guys. I don't know if I have the emotional reserves for any other great guys.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:40 AM on July 20, 2015 [82 favorites]
I love my boyfriend. A lot. He is wonderful. But. That emotional labor thing. (apparently, this is something that has built up for a while).
I do fieldwork in West Africa; if I am lucky I get to use the internet and call home once a week (twice if things are sparkly and I'm flush with cash to pay 20 dollars for a forty minute phone call). And hey - fieldwork! In a rainforest! With monkeys! Cool stuff, good stories! And also, frustrating times with sexual harassment and frustrating dynamics with other researchers and field workers, and nobody who is an English speaker with whom I can de-stress! An opportune thing to use (at least a portion) of my twenty dollars to achieve.
After about 4 months, I realized that I would have to just say "This is what happened to me and this is what I am thinking about," because he would never ask. But I would hear the minutiae of departmental meetings and problems with students and just detail after detail after detail, and then when he was done, he would say "Well, I guess I'll let you go." Because it didn't occur to him that I would like to share something too. And it never changed. He's always interested, once I start, but it never occurs to him to ask.
We had a huge fight with his brother and sister-in-law, and then his dad had a stroke and all of a sudden things got so choked up and so bottled up and so full of emotion that he had nowhere to put. He was (is) angry all the time. Never *at* me, but - because I am the one who is there, always sort of at me. Driving an hour to visit his dad in the hospital would be an hour of listening to the same rant as the last trip, with me nodding and mhming and suggesting the same things I did during the last rant. His family - aunts, uncles, cousins - and father's friends all called and texted me for medical details after his dad's stroke and then asked me why he hadn't proposed yet. His niece was born and I bought the baby presents and sent the cards because I figured that at SOME POINT in time he'd want to be able to maintain a relationship with his brother and their daughter and he point blank refused to do it (though he agreed it should probably be done). I visited my folks over Christmas and when he called, it was 25 minutes of hearing about him being angry. I didn't receive a Christmas or birthday present because he just wasn't feeling like celebrating, but he really liked what I got him! Very thoughtful. My advisor makes snarky comments about me being a dutiful spouse - and he hopes it won't interfere with my writing as I'm dissertating... His cousin told me every time she sees me post something on facebook, she hopes it's an announcement that we're engaged - why hasn't that happened yet, after 5 years?
So I'm back in the rainforest for the summer, taking a few deep breaths and reevaluating. Feeling guilty that he dealt with our move by himself, that he's home alone without me to be a sounding board. I convinced him to start seeing a psychologist because I "wouldn't be around to listen" for the summer. Maybe things will be easier when I get home? I don't know. He's a great, great guy and I see from reading all these stories that they are almost all great, great guys. I don't know if I have the emotional reserves for any other great guys.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:40 AM on July 20, 2015 [82 favorites]
Mod note: Some comments deleted. There are many questions and areas of concern about the male side of this that might be great for another post/thread, but for this discussion, I'll refer back to restless_nomad's request a few hundred comments ago and ask again that we table the "but what about men?!" angle, pursuant to several recent MeTas. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:41 AM on July 20, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:41 AM on July 20, 2015 [26 favorites]
Women consider emotional labor to be the backbone of relationships, not the entry fee.
*learns to cross-stitch*
*cross-stitches this*
posted by XtinaS at 6:45 AM on July 20, 2015 [56 favorites]
*learns to cross-stitch*
*cross-stitches this*
posted by XtinaS at 6:45 AM on July 20, 2015 [56 favorites]
taz, gotcha, thanks, and anyway v much do not want to be singling out a person bravely striving to help. E. Whitehall yes, such a good point, and I'm sorry for the blunder. I love this thread and hope it becomes a miniseries.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:56 AM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 6:56 AM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Re: treats for work - when I was leaving a job where my team was mostly guys, for some reason, my director suggested that a potluck lunch would be a nice goodbye party. Someone made a dessert, another colleague made a pasta salad. Two guys went to McDonald's and bought several large French fries.
At the same job, at one point, a director had suggested that we have a summer BBQ type party and she'd be happy to host if someone would plan it. Crickets. "Well, I guess if no one wants to do something ..." I said I'd handle it because it felt awkward. It wasn't an ordeal and as soon as I said I'd help, a few other people joined me but that was annoying.
Finally, at work, I have been known for keeping candy jars on my desk. I had a few colleagues who once in a while would bring in their own candy since they saw it as a community good, but only a few. That wasn't really emotional labor but it was annoying having to deal with some people who acted like they were trick or treating at my office.
posted by kat518 at 7:03 AM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
At the same job, at one point, a director had suggested that we have a summer BBQ type party and she'd be happy to host if someone would plan it. Crickets. "Well, I guess if no one wants to do something ..." I said I'd handle it because it felt awkward. It wasn't an ordeal and as soon as I said I'd help, a few other people joined me but that was annoying.
Finally, at work, I have been known for keeping candy jars on my desk. I had a few colleagues who once in a while would bring in their own candy since they saw it as a community good, but only a few. That wasn't really emotional labor but it was annoying having to deal with some people who acted like they were trick or treating at my office.
posted by kat518 at 7:03 AM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I bet they didn't bother to show up in a fun costume!
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:05 AM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:05 AM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was the Candy Jar Keeper at a previous job. I liked keeping the candy jar in my office mostly because it was a way to get folks to come in and chitchat with me outside of scheduled meetings. Which I don't actually like for its own sake, because I am a super-introvert, but it was a way to sort of take the temperature of my supervisees outside of actual meetings. I found out about stuff that was stressing people out that I might not have known about otherwise that I could help alleviate, and also got to have some good friendly interactions with people that helped our work relationship. But at the cost of people all up in my introvert space. So, yeah - totally emotional labor, although a kind that paid off in a way that was worthwhile to me.
At my current job, my (female) boss keeps a candy dish. Every few months I bring in some candy to help her restock. She's always really appreciative - I don't think anyone else thinks to do that.
posted by Stacey at 7:14 AM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
At my current job, my (female) boss keeps a candy dish. Every few months I bring in some candy to help her restock. She's always really appreciative - I don't think anyone else thinks to do that.
posted by Stacey at 7:14 AM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think that keeping a candy dish or jar stocked is, in fact, a form of emotional labour. After all it's one of those things you have to keep on your mental shopping list. Keeping track of that kind of thing, that's emotional labour too.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:21 AM on July 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:21 AM on July 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
There's a clear link here between comparative levels of emotional labor among members of a couple and expectations of "ask culture vs guess culture", but I can't quite distill it into text, but it's something I'm thinking about still.
The broader pattern of going to great lengths to avoid explicitly asking for something you want, and to instead manipulate and pressure others into determining to your wishes and acceding to them, (which the restaurant choice thing appears to me to be a specific instance of) seems relevant.
People who do this are training everyone around them to be guessers and to play along when anyone treats them the same way, and maybe even teaching that the manipulation behavior is the proper way to express your preferences and desires. So if you've got people whose experiences growing up conditioned them in this fashion, and that's the reason why they fall into the "guess culture" category, they might fulfill the same pattern when in relationships.
posted by XMLicious at 7:22 AM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have been in the same office for about 10 years. When I started, there were a lot of women, all of whom were sort of working together really well. I loved joining this team. Work got done, potlucks were planned and birthdays were celebrated with everyone sort of chipping in to get it done. At some point, we got a new manager who was a man and suddenly there was competition. Oddly, not over who would plan the best potluck, but over who could have more traits like this person - meaning, doing less of the "emotional labor" in the office. It's been a weird transition and I, unfortunately got quite burned by it. I mostly stay away from any group activities for the past 4 or so years. It's a bummer, because I'd like to like my co-workers - but I'm really not interested in competing for the man's attention - so, nope.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 7:27 AM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Women consider emotional labor to be the backbone of relationships, not the entry fee.
Yes, voluntary, ongoing reciprocity, shown with kindness and with an awareness of someone else's fundamental humanity and unique self, is kind of a big deal.
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:32 AM on July 20, 2015 [38 favorites]
Yes, voluntary, ongoing reciprocity, shown with kindness and with an awareness of someone else's fundamental humanity and unique self, is kind of a big deal.
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:32 AM on July 20, 2015 [38 favorites]
This thread has brought several levels of recognition and realization for me. Its given me renewed appreciation for my amazing male friend, who earlier in the year sent me bath powders, soaps, and lotions because he knew I was having a hard time and needed some 'treat yo self' time.
It also gives me renewed anger at the statement my boss recently made that people don't come to me as a position of authority, they see me as a friend.
Bullshit.
posted by sweetmarie at 7:56 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
It also gives me renewed anger at the statement my boss recently made that people don't come to me as a position of authority, they see me as a friend.
Bullshit.
posted by sweetmarie at 7:56 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
…Men actually do perform emotional labor so willingly at the beginning of a relationship, which shows that they can do it and they are aware that it exists, right up until the relationship is secure enough that they can designate it “not my job anymore” and tap out.
…She thought being noticed and validated would be long-term.
Yes! This is exactly what ruined my last relationship. My ex was very sweet at first, but a few months later, I was suddenly “fucking hysterical” if I said that some of his actions were upsetting me. Plus comments such as that he had absolutely no wish to know what goes on in other people’s heads – and why couldn’t I “lighten up” and stop overthinking things and just “inspire” him?
But if, say, I complimented him on a piece of his work but not in the way he wanted, then I was not thoughtful enough and had to work on my wording. And if I wanted to discuss something unpleasant in our relationship or try to work out a better way for us to communicate, that was called “killing the inspiration”.
I am still so insanely happy all of this is over. I’m really reluctant to enter another relationship now.
He's always interested, once I start, but it never occurs to him to ask.
This, too. “If you have something to tell, you can do it. Why should I have to ask?” No amount of asking to change this behavior works.
posted by Guelder at 8:03 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
…She thought being noticed and validated would be long-term.
Yes! This is exactly what ruined my last relationship. My ex was very sweet at first, but a few months later, I was suddenly “fucking hysterical” if I said that some of his actions were upsetting me. Plus comments such as that he had absolutely no wish to know what goes on in other people’s heads – and why couldn’t I “lighten up” and stop overthinking things and just “inspire” him?
But if, say, I complimented him on a piece of his work but not in the way he wanted, then I was not thoughtful enough and had to work on my wording. And if I wanted to discuss something unpleasant in our relationship or try to work out a better way for us to communicate, that was called “killing the inspiration”.
I am still so insanely happy all of this is over. I’m really reluctant to enter another relationship now.
He's always interested, once I start, but it never occurs to him to ask.
This, too. “If you have something to tell, you can do it. Why should I have to ask?” No amount of asking to change this behavior works.
posted by Guelder at 8:03 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
I was thinking more about this last night, and it struck me that part of the reason a great number of women have so much buried resentment about these issues is because men actually do perform emotional labor so willingly at the beginning of a relationship, which shows that they can do it and they are aware that it exists, right up until the relationship is secure enough that they can designate it “not my job anymore” and tap out.
Setting up special dates based on her preferences, wanting to talk about feelings (because the feelings are all rosy and nice at the beginning, but still), calling just to hear her voice, finding out the little things she likes so he can surprise her with them, being kind to her friends and family, we can watch whatever you want to watch (and meaning it), and on and on. But for a lot of men, these are the means to an end, where the end is a relationship where they never have to do any of these things again.
But for women who end up in relationships that start this way, it is hardly surprising that they feel cheated and duped when the mutual emotional labor disappears and she’s left handling it all by herself. She thought that this man was promising to live this way. She thought being noticed and validated would be long-term. Women consider emotional labor to be the backbone of relationships, not the entry fee.
Holy shit, this, A THOUSAND TIMES. IN HUGE BLINKING TEXT.
I want better for my friends and it makes me sad watching them tie themselves into these knots for people they fully expect will let them down later.
It IS sad. Because a man who is cognizant of and fully invested in developing his role in emotional labor is so rare. And there are a lot of women who do not want to fully opt out of relationships, because there are a number of pretty big consequences in doing so. I won't speak for other women, but I know for me a man just showing signs that he is trying and open to being guided is huge, because they take this SO personally and get SO defensive and as mentioned countless times above, the emotional labor required to soothe their feelings and tell them that they personally are not bad people, that it's just a bad system, is VERY draining . I think lots of women just don't even bother. It is less draining for me personally to just carry on in a relationship doing all the emotional labor while the guy remains happy and clueless about my needs, than it is to try to soothe the hurt feelings and resentment that he gets after I attempt to suggest that he maybe could do more. Honestly. This is up to men to not only educate other men on the issue, but also to teach them how to just listen and if they have questions or concerns, how to voice them. In this sense, I see it as being similar to the conversation on race and how, even when you might feel hurt, offended or defensive, it is critically important to just stay quiet and not only listen but to believe everything that someone is telling you about their own experience without reservation or questioning. This comment from the Key & Peele thread is really relevant here:
Privilege doesn't mean your opinion doesn't matter. It means that, on some issues, you may be lacking information, and unaware that you lack information.
Being aware of my privilege doesn't condemn me to silence, it reminds me that I always need to be listening if I don't want to stumble around blindly hurting people by accident. In the end I may speak a bit less and listen more, but the reward for me is that when I do speak I'm less likely to regret what I've said.
If you have a question about something that you've been unable to resolve by educating yourself first, I personally would be totally okay if you asked me and phrased it along the lines of "I'm really working on doing better to shoulder the burden of emotional labor in relationships. I've been reading a lot about it and I've learned a lot, but I need clarification on something and I just haven't been able to find a good answer through my usual channels. I'm wondering if I could run it past you and get your thoughts on it. I will listen to and absorb your reply and not get defensive or argumentative. I genuinely want to know how to do better and will keep a completely open mind."
If someone asked me something in the above spirit, I would be more than happy to help. Because I know it's hard for a lot of men. Because patriarchy in our society means that most men have literally gone their whole lives not having to do that and I think I can understand the challenge of having to adapt a new way of thinking that is such a second nature to most women that we don't even have to think about it most of the time. Even if we don't do it (either because we opt out or are not very good at it to begin with), I think we at least know when it's expected of us and that we should be doing it, because we've had our whole lives to live with the resulting consequences when we don't do it. So I think I get that it's a challenge, and I am happy to help, because I have a vested interest in men being better at this. Keep in mind that this is just me and some women might not be an interested in doing it, and I don't blame them for it. This is very specific to the individual. But as mentioned above, a lot of men already know how to do this to a certain degree, because they do it when they're first dating someone, or on job interviews or in any situation when they're trying to impress or win someone over. So it's not completely foreign to them either.
I'm still waiting for someone to post an askme on specific things men can do to improve in this regard. Because, again, I have an interest in men getting this information, and I think that most men won't bother to read this long thread and pick all the little gems out of it, as good as it would be for them to do so. :-/
Also, big hugs and much love to the dudes who have stayed with it the whole way and are continuing to read and absorb all of it.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:03 AM on July 20, 2015 [77 favorites]
Setting up special dates based on her preferences, wanting to talk about feelings (because the feelings are all rosy and nice at the beginning, but still), calling just to hear her voice, finding out the little things she likes so he can surprise her with them, being kind to her friends and family, we can watch whatever you want to watch (and meaning it), and on and on. But for a lot of men, these are the means to an end, where the end is a relationship where they never have to do any of these things again.
But for women who end up in relationships that start this way, it is hardly surprising that they feel cheated and duped when the mutual emotional labor disappears and she’s left handling it all by herself. She thought that this man was promising to live this way. She thought being noticed and validated would be long-term. Women consider emotional labor to be the backbone of relationships, not the entry fee.
Holy shit, this, A THOUSAND TIMES. IN HUGE BLINKING TEXT.
I want better for my friends and it makes me sad watching them tie themselves into these knots for people they fully expect will let them down later.
It IS sad. Because a man who is cognizant of and fully invested in developing his role in emotional labor is so rare. And there are a lot of women who do not want to fully opt out of relationships, because there are a number of pretty big consequences in doing so. I won't speak for other women, but I know for me a man just showing signs that he is trying and open to being guided is huge, because they take this SO personally and get SO defensive and as mentioned countless times above, the emotional labor required to soothe their feelings and tell them that they personally are not bad people, that it's just a bad system, is VERY draining . I think lots of women just don't even bother. It is less draining for me personally to just carry on in a relationship doing all the emotional labor while the guy remains happy and clueless about my needs, than it is to try to soothe the hurt feelings and resentment that he gets after I attempt to suggest that he maybe could do more. Honestly. This is up to men to not only educate other men on the issue, but also to teach them how to just listen and if they have questions or concerns, how to voice them. In this sense, I see it as being similar to the conversation on race and how, even when you might feel hurt, offended or defensive, it is critically important to just stay quiet and not only listen but to believe everything that someone is telling you about their own experience without reservation or questioning. This comment from the Key & Peele thread is really relevant here:
Privilege doesn't mean your opinion doesn't matter. It means that, on some issues, you may be lacking information, and unaware that you lack information.
Being aware of my privilege doesn't condemn me to silence, it reminds me that I always need to be listening if I don't want to stumble around blindly hurting people by accident. In the end I may speak a bit less and listen more, but the reward for me is that when I do speak I'm less likely to regret what I've said.
If you have a question about something that you've been unable to resolve by educating yourself first, I personally would be totally okay if you asked me and phrased it along the lines of "I'm really working on doing better to shoulder the burden of emotional labor in relationships. I've been reading a lot about it and I've learned a lot, but I need clarification on something and I just haven't been able to find a good answer through my usual channels. I'm wondering if I could run it past you and get your thoughts on it. I will listen to and absorb your reply and not get defensive or argumentative. I genuinely want to know how to do better and will keep a completely open mind."
If someone asked me something in the above spirit, I would be more than happy to help. Because I know it's hard for a lot of men. Because patriarchy in our society means that most men have literally gone their whole lives not having to do that and I think I can understand the challenge of having to adapt a new way of thinking that is such a second nature to most women that we don't even have to think about it most of the time. Even if we don't do it (either because we opt out or are not very good at it to begin with), I think we at least know when it's expected of us and that we should be doing it, because we've had our whole lives to live with the resulting consequences when we don't do it. So I think I get that it's a challenge, and I am happy to help, because I have a vested interest in men being better at this. Keep in mind that this is just me and some women might not be an interested in doing it, and I don't blame them for it. This is very specific to the individual. But as mentioned above, a lot of men already know how to do this to a certain degree, because they do it when they're first dating someone, or on job interviews or in any situation when they're trying to impress or win someone over. So it's not completely foreign to them either.
I'm still waiting for someone to post an askme on specific things men can do to improve in this regard. Because, again, I have an interest in men getting this information, and I think that most men won't bother to read this long thread and pick all the little gems out of it, as good as it would be for them to do so. :-/
Also, big hugs and much love to the dudes who have stayed with it the whole way and are continuing to read and absorb all of it.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:03 AM on July 20, 2015 [77 favorites]
I have pondered this unequal 'holding' of a relationship's (and its attendees) needs a lot in my relationship lives over the years, and privately called the phenomena "Kin-Keeping" - the work a (usually female) partner does to create connection and community with others in/outside the primary relationship - a maintenance of Kin.
I started a relationship 20 years ago where I vowed not to do it out of step or proportion with my partner. I verbalised this notion at the first missed birthday: '"it's on you dude, to remember your family members' birthdays/ and also, while we are at it: you can also: make appointments to see a doctor/lawyer/dentist/ choose your own shoes/shirts/pants/shampoo / write job applications/ know when your bills are due/pay them / clean your own shit off the toilet bowl/ buy us all loo paper etc" Doing all this stuff for a bloke is exhausting and invisible in its expectation - from the guy himself and the family and community he inhabits. Yet, fifteen years on, the It's Probably Just Easier To Do It Anyway aspect of holding this line, or breaking my line, killed the relationship.
As was so quickly and earnestly contested early in this thread to abdicating blokes ("Well, duh Ladeez, stop doing it if you hate it so much") there are consequences of losing this core Kin Keeping work. If you stick to this line of behaviour you have to do without all those things you'd love for yourself. You close off that labour supply and hopeful expectation of reciprocity and maybe, like me, you realise you're better off alone.
The awful and also validating part of this thread for me is the knowledge that I had the observation, the intuition, the awareness of an unhealthy, unfair and hurtful paradigm already locked down in my early 20s, with my private words for it. I am supposed to run around after other people. I am a People Pleasing Supply Unit.
posted by honey-barbara at 8:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [33 favorites]
I started a relationship 20 years ago where I vowed not to do it out of step or proportion with my partner. I verbalised this notion at the first missed birthday: '"it's on you dude, to remember your family members' birthdays/ and also, while we are at it: you can also: make appointments to see a doctor/lawyer/dentist/ choose your own shoes/shirts/pants/shampoo / write job applications/ know when your bills are due/pay them / clean your own shit off the toilet bowl/ buy us all loo paper etc" Doing all this stuff for a bloke is exhausting and invisible in its expectation - from the guy himself and the family and community he inhabits. Yet, fifteen years on, the It's Probably Just Easier To Do It Anyway aspect of holding this line, or breaking my line, killed the relationship.
As was so quickly and earnestly contested early in this thread to abdicating blokes ("Well, duh Ladeez, stop doing it if you hate it so much") there are consequences of losing this core Kin Keeping work. If you stick to this line of behaviour you have to do without all those things you'd love for yourself. You close off that labour supply and hopeful expectation of reciprocity and maybe, like me, you realise you're better off alone.
The awful and also validating part of this thread for me is the knowledge that I had the observation, the intuition, the awareness of an unhealthy, unfair and hurtful paradigm already locked down in my early 20s, with my private words for it. I am supposed to run around after other people. I am a People Pleasing Supply Unit.
posted by honey-barbara at 8:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [33 favorites]
Men actually do perform emotional labor so willingly at the beginning of a relationship, which shows that they can do it and they are aware that it exists, right up until the relationship is secure enough that they can designate it “not my job anymore” and tap out.
This may be the most cynical thing I ever say out loud: I find this curve is the same curve as New Relationship Energy sex.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [39 favorites]
This may be the most cynical thing I ever say out loud: I find this curve is the same curve as New Relationship Energy sex.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [39 favorites]
My husband just walked into the living room and said "Hey, FYI, I'm out of shaving cream." (He has very sensitive skin and uses a particular type of expensive shaving cream that you have to get at the Fancy Dude Store or online, not the drugstore.) Then he walked back out again. As he was on his way out he did a heel turn and came back into the living room and said "OK, so pursuant to that Metafilter thread: I have run out of shaving cream, and I was hoping not to have to use a different kind while I wait for new shaving cream to get here from the Internet. So if your life arranges things such that you find yourself near the shaving cream store, could you pick some up for me? If not, text me at work and I will either get it online and wait or go out this evening after dinner. Thank you so much, I appreciate it -- and you -- a lot."
WINNAR
posted by KathrynT at 8:28 AM on July 20, 2015 [211 favorites]
WINNAR
posted by KathrynT at 8:28 AM on July 20, 2015 [211 favorites]
I personally would be totally okay if you asked me and phrased it along the lines of "I'm really working on doing better to shoulder the burden of emotional labor in relationships. I've been reading a lot about it and I've learned a lot, but I need clarification on something and I just haven't been able to find a good answer through my usual channels. I'm wondering if I could run it past you and get your thoughts on it. I will listen to and absorb your reply and not get defensive or argumentative. I genuinely want to know how to do better and will keep a completely open mind."
I was only half way through this paragraph and already thinking that it contained more apologetic words and disclaimers than a man would be likely to use even talking to a very high status man, like the President, Warren Buffet or the Pope.
It's really hard for me to imagine a man being that apologetic, even when trying to negotiate a plea bargain. I'd like to understand better how different genders are socialized about their speech patterns. (And I have read a couple of Deborah Tannen's book.)
(re: the offer of suggestions, I've got a 21 year old son that husband and I are still raising. I'll take your tips for improving his nurturing while I still can, but woman asking for man is kind of undermining the shift of responsibility we hope to see.)
posted by puddledork at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
I was only half way through this paragraph and already thinking that it contained more apologetic words and disclaimers than a man would be likely to use even talking to a very high status man, like the President, Warren Buffet or the Pope.
It's really hard for me to imagine a man being that apologetic, even when trying to negotiate a plea bargain. I'd like to understand better how different genders are socialized about their speech patterns. (And I have read a couple of Deborah Tannen's book.)
(re: the offer of suggestions, I've got a 21 year old son that husband and I are still raising. I'll take your tips for improving his nurturing while I still can, but woman asking for man is kind of undermining the shift of responsibility we hope to see.)
posted by puddledork at 8:31 AM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm still waiting for someone to post an askme on specific things men can do to improve in this regard. Because, again, I have an interest in men getting this information, and I think that most men won't bother to read this long thread and pick all the little gems out of it, as good as it would be for them to do so. :-/
Part of me totally wants to make this ask, because as a woman in a queer relationship I'm not as good at pulling my share of the emotional labor/mental planning in my relationship as I'd like to be, and I've been in the process of improving that over the last couple of weeks.
A bigger part of me is incredibly resentful that no actual dude has bothered to invest the effort into doing that or thinking of how to frame that Ask, including the ones who have brought up exactly that question in-thread. Like, that thing--"how do dudes do better"--is that a conversation a woman has to start too? Do I--should I--be devoting my time and energy to helping guys on the internet achieve personal growth even when they can't necessarily be bothered to read a larger thread without prodding? It's a fairly disheartening thought.
posted by sciatrix at 8:46 AM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
Part of me totally wants to make this ask, because as a woman in a queer relationship I'm not as good at pulling my share of the emotional labor/mental planning in my relationship as I'd like to be, and I've been in the process of improving that over the last couple of weeks.
A bigger part of me is incredibly resentful that no actual dude has bothered to invest the effort into doing that or thinking of how to frame that Ask, including the ones who have brought up exactly that question in-thread. Like, that thing--"how do dudes do better"--is that a conversation a woman has to start too? Do I--should I--be devoting my time and energy to helping guys on the internet achieve personal growth even when they can't necessarily be bothered to read a larger thread without prodding? It's a fairly disheartening thought.
posted by sciatrix at 8:46 AM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
Re: Ask vs Guess.
We are examining gender roles in relation to emotional labor through a multitude of frameworks. While Ask vs Guess may play a role in the degree of emotional labor performed, but I'd be wary of linking the two, especially when offering judgement between the cultures.
By assigning emotional labor to Guess Culture, and labeling that culture as manipulative, it's not a huge leap to think one could dismiss the comments here, because they identify as an Ask. (and this thread is nothing, if not about how women's emotional labor is dismissed and devalued!)
While I'm certain that gender intersects with expectations within the Ask vs Guess culture, I'm also sure that bases the popularity of this post and through reading every comment, that not every woman [who commented here] belongs to guess culture.
How Ask vs Guess plays a role, and the resulting dynamics is something that I'm thinking on. I have some ideas, concepts based on my experiences, but I can't quite formulate it. I hope to be able to speak on it (& the role of guess) later. For now, though, I wanted to caution against taking a larger phenomenon and reducing it to ask vs guess.
On another note: since Ask vs Guess Culture is a framework that can be applied to both individuals and wider ethnic/cultural practices, I'm not sure either practice should ever be judged. It's a way of understanding actions that seem foreign to us, and as a spectrum, either aspect of the Ask vs Guess framework can be taken to a pathological level.
posted by bindr at 8:48 AM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
We are examining gender roles in relation to emotional labor through a multitude of frameworks. While Ask vs Guess may play a role in the degree of emotional labor performed, but I'd be wary of linking the two, especially when offering judgement between the cultures.
By assigning emotional labor to Guess Culture, and labeling that culture as manipulative, it's not a huge leap to think one could dismiss the comments here, because they identify as an Ask. (and this thread is nothing, if not about how women's emotional labor is dismissed and devalued!)
While I'm certain that gender intersects with expectations within the Ask vs Guess culture, I'm also sure that bases the popularity of this post and through reading every comment, that not every woman [who commented here] belongs to guess culture.
How Ask vs Guess plays a role, and the resulting dynamics is something that I'm thinking on. I have some ideas, concepts based on my experiences, but I can't quite formulate it. I hope to be able to speak on it (& the role of guess) later. For now, though, I wanted to caution against taking a larger phenomenon and reducing it to ask vs guess.
On another note: since Ask vs Guess Culture is a framework that can be applied to both individuals and wider ethnic/cultural practices, I'm not sure either practice should ever be judged. It's a way of understanding actions that seem foreign to us, and as a spectrum, either aspect of the Ask vs Guess framework can be taken to a pathological level.
posted by bindr at 8:48 AM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think I'm seeing a link to ask v guess because I (a cis woman) am in a relationship with another cis woman, so there's not the gender divide going on for my personal experiences in my relationship. There are spectrum and non-neurotypical issues at play, though, which sort of mirrors some of the gender divide, maybe? Idunno.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
It is an interesting idea to look at the intersection of Ask vs Guess, but as a woman who is very much an Asker, but far more fluent in Guess than most native speakers (probably coming from the fact that as a woman, an immigrant, and working class meant I had to be far more tuned into other's unspoken expectations), I think the experience of Ask and Guess culture is very gendered - and I am sure that has been commented on before on Metafilter.
A man using either Guess or Ask is generally acting from a position of power; women are not. Look at the gendered language used to identify the behaviour within the the two types of interactions. An Ask-man is decisive, clear, a leader; an Ask-woman is a bitch, bossy, uppity. At best, both would be considered "rude", but men's rudeness is often hand-waved away as "well he didn't know any better" whereas women ARE expected to know better and think of others first - don't ever do a direct Ask unless you know for sure the answer is yes, lest you risk someone feeling bad about themselves. A Guess-man is nuanced, diplomatic; a Guess-woman is manipulative, a team player.
A woman probably will get more results by using Guess and a Man would have more impact from using Ask language. This can be reflected back into the frustration that men sometimes express when they realise an un-expressed expectation from a woman has not been met: "Well, why didn't you just ASK for it??" In their experience, direct Asking produces results, whereas women know that unless they are coming from a position of power, Guess language (and the potential face-shaving for men especiallu) is more effective to achieve many goals in interpersonal communication.
posted by saucysault at 9:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [49 favorites]
A man using either Guess or Ask is generally acting from a position of power; women are not. Look at the gendered language used to identify the behaviour within the the two types of interactions. An Ask-man is decisive, clear, a leader; an Ask-woman is a bitch, bossy, uppity. At best, both would be considered "rude", but men's rudeness is often hand-waved away as "well he didn't know any better" whereas women ARE expected to know better and think of others first - don't ever do a direct Ask unless you know for sure the answer is yes, lest you risk someone feeling bad about themselves. A Guess-man is nuanced, diplomatic; a Guess-woman is manipulative, a team player.
A woman probably will get more results by using Guess and a Man would have more impact from using Ask language. This can be reflected back into the frustration that men sometimes express when they realise an un-expressed expectation from a woman has not been met: "Well, why didn't you just ASK for it??" In their experience, direct Asking produces results, whereas women know that unless they are coming from a position of power, Guess language (and the potential face-shaving for men especiallu) is more effective to achieve many goals in interpersonal communication.
posted by saucysault at 9:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [49 favorites]
sciatrix, that is exactly why I haven't made a post. Because I have questions too, but me making the post is just more emotional labor I would be doing on behalf of men. Which, tbh, is pointless. Because if a guy wants to know, he'll ask. Otherwise it's more of the same of just women shouting into the abyss.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by triggerfinger at 9:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
My take on the restaurant thing is twofold: first, there are real medical issues in play in our house (e.g., diabetes/low blood sugar and regular low-level nausea) that mean sometimes one or the other of us has trouble thinking of something that we like. When it's me, and it often is, I try to be open about "nothing sounds good because I'm not feeling well" because I know how immensely frustrating that is.
Second, some of this stuff sounds like "please me if you can", and without a reason (see: I can't figure out what I want to eat because I'm ill), that is a game I just don't play. I've had guys pull that on me with no medical reason or excuse, and it never ended well for me, so I gave up trying to please them.
My mother used to call that kind of emotional labor (the stuff where you prove you're thinking about the other person by going above and beyond to soothe somehow-wounded feelings) "patting their poo-poo", and it's become a very useful phrase for me. It doesn't just signify the work, but the unreasonableness of the need for it because someone else can't get what they want and they demand soothing or care or something from me to make up for whatever they're not getting that they want/think they ought to.
posted by immlass at 9:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Second, some of this stuff sounds like "please me if you can", and without a reason (see: I can't figure out what I want to eat because I'm ill), that is a game I just don't play. I've had guys pull that on me with no medical reason or excuse, and it never ended well for me, so I gave up trying to please them.
My mother used to call that kind of emotional labor (the stuff where you prove you're thinking about the other person by going above and beyond to soothe somehow-wounded feelings) "patting their poo-poo", and it's become a very useful phrase for me. It doesn't just signify the work, but the unreasonableness of the need for it because someone else can't get what they want and they demand soothing or care or something from me to make up for whatever they're not getting that they want/think they ought to.
posted by immlass at 9:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Dear gods, you guys. This thread. So much resonates.
When the husband and I first married, his grandmother gave all of the sisters in-law an address book for Christmas one year. It had all the addresses, birthdays, and anniversaries of the entire family, including extended family. The husband is number 6 of 7, all 7 are married and have kids. Many of the cousins have similarly large families. I looked at the book and said "Jesus christ, that's a fucking lot of family."
And never did a godsdamned thing with it, because it was not my family.
The nagging started pretty much instantly. "Why didn't you send Jan and Steve a card for their anniversary?" "Who"? "Jan and Steve, my cousins in Elyria." "Never met 'em. Not my family." And there was grumbling. The next event came around. Why didn't I send a card to this person for their birthday? "Never met 'em. Not my family." This went on for a couple years, with him nagging me about using the address book, and me finally getting fed up and pitching it in the trash.
Time passes, various bits of the family moved around, and he started complaining about never seeing his family. We had a screaming row about it one night, and he threw a huge tantrum about how I never send cards or call people, and it was upsetting to those people, and he never sees his brothers, and why don't I ever make any plans? My screaming response was "THEY ARE YOUR FAMILY! If they're mad because they're not getting cards and you're mad because you don't see your brothers, that is 100% on your shoulders, because they are YOUR family, NOT mine, and I am not your fucking social secretary." It had never occurred to him that it was HIS responsibility to maintain relationships with HIS siblings!
He does not make friends of his own. The few friends that he has, he has because I talked to them first. He's very proud of the work that we do for a small MI winery, and likes to make a big deal of the fact that we are now on the Board of Directors, but the fact is, we would never have even started volunteering there if I hadn't been the one to become friends with the fascinating and hilarious vintner and his wife. When I want to do things with my friends, he wants to be included. When I want to do things with my friends and I don't want him along, he sulks. And when he's upset with me and fussing because he doesn't have the same kind of relationship with my friends that I do, he refuses to understand that it's because I have done ALL the work of maintaining those relationships, and he has done none. When he's feeling especially sorry for himself, he complains that if we ever split up, he wouldn't have any friends any more, and that my friends would be right there to help me move out. Well, duh. That's because I'm the one who makes plans with them, talks to them about everything and nothing, makes them feel welcome and happy in my home when they visit.
It has only been in recent years that he has finally gotten it into his head that my emotional needs matter, too, and that he needs to get out of the habit of expecting me to be his everything. He is finally understanding that I cannot fulfill his every want and need, and he needs to take responsibility for his own social life.
The notion of women as the Caregivers of the Entire Fucking Universe is so deeply ingrained in some people, and it weighs heavily. Performing this sort of work only when I WANT to, rather than when it is expected of me helps ease the burden somewhat, but stars and stones, it is still a heavy burden when your partner is willfully clueless.
posted by MissySedai at 9:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [104 favorites]
When the husband and I first married, his grandmother gave all of the sisters in-law an address book for Christmas one year. It had all the addresses, birthdays, and anniversaries of the entire family, including extended family. The husband is number 6 of 7, all 7 are married and have kids. Many of the cousins have similarly large families. I looked at the book and said "Jesus christ, that's a fucking lot of family."
And never did a godsdamned thing with it, because it was not my family.
The nagging started pretty much instantly. "Why didn't you send Jan and Steve a card for their anniversary?" "Who"? "Jan and Steve, my cousins in Elyria." "Never met 'em. Not my family." And there was grumbling. The next event came around. Why didn't I send a card to this person for their birthday? "Never met 'em. Not my family." This went on for a couple years, with him nagging me about using the address book, and me finally getting fed up and pitching it in the trash.
Time passes, various bits of the family moved around, and he started complaining about never seeing his family. We had a screaming row about it one night, and he threw a huge tantrum about how I never send cards or call people, and it was upsetting to those people, and he never sees his brothers, and why don't I ever make any plans? My screaming response was "THEY ARE YOUR FAMILY! If they're mad because they're not getting cards and you're mad because you don't see your brothers, that is 100% on your shoulders, because they are YOUR family, NOT mine, and I am not your fucking social secretary." It had never occurred to him that it was HIS responsibility to maintain relationships with HIS siblings!
He does not make friends of his own. The few friends that he has, he has because I talked to them first. He's very proud of the work that we do for a small MI winery, and likes to make a big deal of the fact that we are now on the Board of Directors, but the fact is, we would never have even started volunteering there if I hadn't been the one to become friends with the fascinating and hilarious vintner and his wife. When I want to do things with my friends, he wants to be included. When I want to do things with my friends and I don't want him along, he sulks. And when he's upset with me and fussing because he doesn't have the same kind of relationship with my friends that I do, he refuses to understand that it's because I have done ALL the work of maintaining those relationships, and he has done none. When he's feeling especially sorry for himself, he complains that if we ever split up, he wouldn't have any friends any more, and that my friends would be right there to help me move out. Well, duh. That's because I'm the one who makes plans with them, talks to them about everything and nothing, makes them feel welcome and happy in my home when they visit.
It has only been in recent years that he has finally gotten it into his head that my emotional needs matter, too, and that he needs to get out of the habit of expecting me to be his everything. He is finally understanding that I cannot fulfill his every want and need, and he needs to take responsibility for his own social life.
The notion of women as the Caregivers of the Entire Fucking Universe is so deeply ingrained in some people, and it weighs heavily. Performing this sort of work only when I WANT to, rather than when it is expected of me helps ease the burden somewhat, but stars and stones, it is still a heavy burden when your partner is willfully clueless.
posted by MissySedai at 9:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [104 favorites]
His grandmother gave all of the sisters in-law an address book for Christmas one year. It had all the addresses, birthdays, and anniversaries of the entire family, including extended family.
This is my version of Hell. Exactly this.
posted by littlewater at 9:21 AM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
This is my version of Hell. Exactly this.
posted by littlewater at 9:21 AM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
When I was responding to rmd1023 above, I wasn't trying to generally characterize guess culture (which I've considered as more of a quick phrase to describe multiple types of behavior than strictly a culture, but I may not fully understand the concept) but just saying that for a particular category of manipulation, both the manipulator and the people manipulated may exhibit behavior that would make them seem "guess culture". (While there would also be many other reasons why someone would behave in ways to make them fall under "guess culture".)
posted by XMLicious at 9:23 AM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 9:23 AM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think Ask/Guess is a matrix more than anything, because it's not just going to be affected by gender, but also by culture, subculture, linguistics (some languages are more Ask by nature, some are more Guess, and then there's the language you're speaking vs the language you think in vs the language you grew up speaking/thinking in, and then there's that whole thing all over again but with the people who raised you), personality, life experience, and situation.
Also, Ask/Guess are one side of the equation, and the other side is not obliged to be the polar opposite - either side can also come in Don't Care, Not Listening, More Important Than You, Trying To Take Advantage etc. Also, a single person can be Ask-down but Guess-up or one million other kinds of combos.
There's also "I shouldn't have to ask" which is a common refrain among people who feel they're being burdened with the majority of the emotional labor in a situation. That's a different situation entirely.
This issue cannot be solved in one neat paradigm.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:35 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
Also, Ask/Guess are one side of the equation, and the other side is not obliged to be the polar opposite - either side can also come in Don't Care, Not Listening, More Important Than You, Trying To Take Advantage etc. Also, a single person can be Ask-down but Guess-up or one million other kinds of combos.
There's also "I shouldn't have to ask" which is a common refrain among people who feel they're being burdened with the majority of the emotional labor in a situation. That's a different situation entirely.
This issue cannot be solved in one neat paradigm.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:35 AM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
His grandmother gave all of the sisters in-law an address book for Christmas one year. It had all the addresses, birthdays, and anniversaries of the entire family, including extended family.
Ho-lee shit. This is not just passive aggressive. This is just fucking aggressive!!! They are lucky they see you at all.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:38 AM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Ho-lee shit. This is not just passive aggressive. This is just fucking aggressive!!! They are lucky they see you at all.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:38 AM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
His grandmother gave all of the sisters in-law an address book for Christmas one year. It had all the addresses, birthdays, and anniversaries of the entire family, including extended family.
god, what a fucking nightmare. I would be like "oh good, I'll hand this over to [husband] right away! he must be heartbroken that he lost his copy" and then smile brilliantly before galloping away at top speed
posted by poffin boffin at 9:39 AM on July 20, 2015 [64 favorites]
god, what a fucking nightmare. I would be like "oh good, I'll hand this over to [husband] right away! he must be heartbroken that he lost his copy" and then smile brilliantly before galloping away at top speed
posted by poffin boffin at 9:39 AM on July 20, 2015 [64 favorites]
Maybe this should be a new post, I'm not quite sure, but the author of this piece (Jess Zimmerman) has a new piece up about burning her life down and starting over and what midlife crisis looks like for women that touches again on some of these issues of the amount of our life we expend managing other people's needs and expectations. Killing it this week, Jess is.
posted by Stacey at 10:00 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 10:00 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
Wow, Stacey, this...
What had happened was this: I realized that, like many women, I had made all the decisions of my life on someone else’s behalf. I knew how to figure out other people’s expectations, and how to try to dodge their disappointment, and how to stay out of the way and not nag and not need things. I didn’t know what I actually wanted, at all.
...totally explains my adulthood, and I'm only three paragraphs in.
Thanks for posting the link to it.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:06 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
What had happened was this: I realized that, like many women, I had made all the decisions of my life on someone else’s behalf. I knew how to figure out other people’s expectations, and how to try to dodge their disappointment, and how to stay out of the way and not nag and not need things. I didn’t know what I actually wanted, at all.
...totally explains my adulthood, and I'm only three paragraphs in.
Thanks for posting the link to it.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:06 AM on July 20, 2015 [27 favorites]
My head might detach itself from all of the nodding.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by mudpuppie at 10:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
Whoa, does anybody remember the song "Excuse Me Mr." from No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom? I first got that album when I was really young (5th-6th grade?), so I could never fully wrap my mind around the lyrics. Something about a dude ignoring her...won't give her the time of day. But THIS. Unreciprocated emotional labor is what that song is really about. (I think.) How much of this labor has a woman got to pay out before dudes will do anything in return? Seriously, what's the price? Because we've been doing this shit all our lives, yet we've never saved up enough goodwill to have our needs acknowledged. We've asked politely and waited patiently, but we're made out to be the bad guys for even bringing it up.
posted by gueneverey at 10:29 AM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by gueneverey at 10:29 AM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
A common lament from anyone who has done college-level teaching of any sort is the apparent inability of students to read the syllabus. This leads to the boring tradition of the instructor reading a syllabus aloud to a class of adults who, because they are in college, can almost certainly read and understand the document on their own. Everyone agrees that this is a waste of time, but from the instructor's side, it is a necessary waste of time, in that 'wasting' this time here reading the syllabus will likely save me more time down the road as it will reduce questions about things that are addressed in syllabus.
Reduction, alas, does not mean elimination. Some students will plunge ahead and ask questions about due dates, requirements, readings and so on that are explicitly addressed in the syllabus. These emails are truly wastes of time. The students waste their time writing up an email then waiting for and reading the response, when they could have just clicked on the course site and been done. The instructor's time is wasted by having to read and craft a response to that email, even if the response is just 'Please check the syllabus for this information.' And of course, such a brief response will be read as rude by some students, and there are ramifications in student evaluations for female-presenting instructors who are seen as cold, terse, or rude that are not present for male-presenting instructors. Not choosing to reply is not an option at all, because that only ensures that I receive follow-up emails until class.
I have long thought about building the cost for asking such questions directly into the course grades, in effect charging my students for their abdication of responsibility for course materials. My thought has been a one percentage point penalty for each emailed question that could have been addressed by the student reading the syllabus or course announcements first. On the one hand such a policy would have costs in my student evaluations, which could have negative career implications, but not having such a policy contributes to a less pleasant work experience, which has the negative career implication of prematur departure.
While surely both male and female instructors experience this phenomenon, I can't help but feel like a male instructor who implements a penalty system would be able to make a couple wry comments and students would accept it at the nature of the course, while a female instructor would have to explain the situation at greater length, be more apologetic about it ("Gee, I hate to have to do this, but..."), and probably give a few warnings before actually penalizing people without taking significant hits to her course evaluations. While course evaluations are not the end-all be-all, they are still important components of the academic hiring process and emotional labor plays a large role in the quality of evaluations female instructors get. Still, since I am by nature a down-to-business person, I probably will end up putting something like this in a future syllabus, damn the costs to my course evaluations.
All of this is a long-winded way of saying that just as emotional labor has costs, so too does opting out of emotional labor. On some level, most women who perform free emotional labor have done the cost-benefit analysis, and made the best choice they could make within their circumstances. For example, I would never begrudge the adjunct professor struggling to get by a more forgiving standard of student communication - she has her own calculus of job security, time, sanity, and income needs to balance. The people who would advocate, 'Then just don't do the thing if you don't like it' have done an incomplete analysis of the costs and benefits of doing the thing - they are only looking at the costs of doing it. This suggests that these advocates have not been made to feel consequences of opting out of emotional labor, and are unaware that such costs exist.
posted by palindromic at 10:52 AM on July 20, 2015 [62 favorites]
Reduction, alas, does not mean elimination. Some students will plunge ahead and ask questions about due dates, requirements, readings and so on that are explicitly addressed in the syllabus. These emails are truly wastes of time. The students waste their time writing up an email then waiting for and reading the response, when they could have just clicked on the course site and been done. The instructor's time is wasted by having to read and craft a response to that email, even if the response is just 'Please check the syllabus for this information.' And of course, such a brief response will be read as rude by some students, and there are ramifications in student evaluations for female-presenting instructors who are seen as cold, terse, or rude that are not present for male-presenting instructors. Not choosing to reply is not an option at all, because that only ensures that I receive follow-up emails until class.
I have long thought about building the cost for asking such questions directly into the course grades, in effect charging my students for their abdication of responsibility for course materials. My thought has been a one percentage point penalty for each emailed question that could have been addressed by the student reading the syllabus or course announcements first. On the one hand such a policy would have costs in my student evaluations, which could have negative career implications, but not having such a policy contributes to a less pleasant work experience, which has the negative career implication of prematur departure.
While surely both male and female instructors experience this phenomenon, I can't help but feel like a male instructor who implements a penalty system would be able to make a couple wry comments and students would accept it at the nature of the course, while a female instructor would have to explain the situation at greater length, be more apologetic about it ("Gee, I hate to have to do this, but..."), and probably give a few warnings before actually penalizing people without taking significant hits to her course evaluations. While course evaluations are not the end-all be-all, they are still important components of the academic hiring process and emotional labor plays a large role in the quality of evaluations female instructors get. Still, since I am by nature a down-to-business person, I probably will end up putting something like this in a future syllabus, damn the costs to my course evaluations.
All of this is a long-winded way of saying that just as emotional labor has costs, so too does opting out of emotional labor. On some level, most women who perform free emotional labor have done the cost-benefit analysis, and made the best choice they could make within their circumstances. For example, I would never begrudge the adjunct professor struggling to get by a more forgiving standard of student communication - she has her own calculus of job security, time, sanity, and income needs to balance. The people who would advocate, 'Then just don't do the thing if you don't like it' have done an incomplete analysis of the costs and benefits of doing the thing - they are only looking at the costs of doing it. This suggests that these advocates have not been made to feel consequences of opting out of emotional labor, and are unaware that such costs exist.
posted by palindromic at 10:52 AM on July 20, 2015 [62 favorites]
This thread has been so amazing and I have had so many thoughts, too many to even post or participate, all about my mother and my father, and my own personality and my job and my annoying father-in-law who makes us pick the restaurant even though he's the one who won't eat anything foreign or spicy or interesting or go places where the portions aren't big enough to stun a water buffalo, so why the fuck doesn't he just tell us where he's taking us because I'm not actually free to pick what I'd really like, such as the new Vietnamese place down the road. Ugh.
And so thank you to everyone.
Thanks in particular to people who have posted about being women in academia. I'm academic staff - I coordinate all the degree programs for a single department at a large university and I do academic advising for undergrads. A large part of my personality (inborn? rebellion against my mother? example of my father?) has always been to resist being forced to do emotional labor I have no interest in. It can be a really strange position to take in advising, despite this not being a job that requires any kind of social work or psychology background.
I was the weirdo in a meeting a few years ago, pushing back against the notion that a customer service survey for students should have the question, "I feel like my academic advisor takes the time to know me as a person and asks me questions about my hobbies etc." I was really resistant that we as advisors should be rated on unpaid emotional labor rather than say, being really good problem solvers or getting people graduated on time.
The whole duration of my career here I've been struggling to disengage emotionally from the job as much as possible because the stress and guilt was killing me. This past year, I've gotten much more removed, but have been under some stink-eye from faculty because I've gotten pretty vocal about what I do and don't see as my job (hint, no emotional labor) and because my emails are too terse and factual and don't blow smoke up enough asses anymore.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [21 favorites]
And so thank you to everyone.
Thanks in particular to people who have posted about being women in academia. I'm academic staff - I coordinate all the degree programs for a single department at a large university and I do academic advising for undergrads. A large part of my personality (inborn? rebellion against my mother? example of my father?) has always been to resist being forced to do emotional labor I have no interest in. It can be a really strange position to take in advising, despite this not being a job that requires any kind of social work or psychology background.
I was the weirdo in a meeting a few years ago, pushing back against the notion that a customer service survey for students should have the question, "I feel like my academic advisor takes the time to know me as a person and asks me questions about my hobbies etc." I was really resistant that we as advisors should be rated on unpaid emotional labor rather than say, being really good problem solvers or getting people graduated on time.
The whole duration of my career here I've been struggling to disengage emotionally from the job as much as possible because the stress and guilt was killing me. This past year, I've gotten much more removed, but have been under some stink-eye from faculty because I've gotten pretty vocal about what I do and don't see as my job (hint, no emotional labor) and because my emails are too terse and factual and don't blow smoke up enough asses anymore.
posted by Squeak Attack at 11:09 AM on July 20, 2015 [21 favorites]
Protip for the guys asking how to start picking up the emotional labour in your heterosexual relationships: talk to your gay male friends. We simply don't have the privilege of offloading our emotional labour onto women, so we have to figure it out for ourselves. So, ask your gay friends how they do it. This has the double effect of 1) learning, and 2) not making it a woman's job to tell you how to contribute your fair share.
Here's one realllllly simple way to start, free of charge: if your female partner is cooking dinner, you do the damn dishes. NB: that doesn't mean leaving them to soak. It means clean the kitchen until it's sparkling again. If you're using a dishwasher, you unload it. For the 201 class we'll be discussing How About You Cook Most Of The Meals For A Change, Women Don't Have Some Cooking Gene That Men Don't.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
Here's one realllllly simple way to start, free of charge: if your female partner is cooking dinner, you do the damn dishes. NB: that doesn't mean leaving them to soak. It means clean the kitchen until it's sparkling again. If you're using a dishwasher, you unload it. For the 201 class we'll be discussing How About You Cook Most Of The Meals For A Change, Women Don't Have Some Cooking Gene That Men Don't.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:12 AM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
One of the really weird things that cropped up with my ex that I'd never run into before was this strange belief that emotional work was something to be done on one's own. I'm pretty sure that, if you asked him, he'd say he'd done a ton of emotional work in response to me saying, "[X] is a problem for me," but I was never privy to it and or asked about it or involved in it in any way. I tried repeatedly to open up dialogue about how do we fix our communication problems, but he wouldn't engage with me on that level -- if he was doing emotional work, he was doing it by... I don't even know? Suppressing his own reactions? Trying to change the way he approached me without telling me anything about it or asking what would work for me?
This lead, at the end, to accusations that he had "already changed a lot for me" and "you're never happy and if you're not happy I'll just hear about it again later" and "I'm never comfortable around you." The worst was when he said, "Everything I say upsets you and I've tried everything!" and I pointed out that he had tried everything to stop upsetting me except asking what upset me he told me, "That's because it's totally random! It's not coherent and it doesn't make any sense!" Which, like, dude, I get that it feels that way at this point, but holy shit that didn't ring any 'oh, perhaps i am approaching this the wrong way' bells? He would also say that "You bring up problems and it's always about "us" but then I have to fix it!" after discussions where I appealed to him repeatedly to help me figure out how to make things better or presented possible solutions (which he never had any ideas or suggestions or feedback or anything else about except a vague, "We can try it.")
At the time it was hugely painful (all right, I'll be honest, it still is), but now I'm a couple of weeks out it's also just fucking bizarre. Like, you're willing to do emotional work to try and make me happy, but not to bring me in on it? You'll do stuff for me, but only if it doesn't involve collaboration?
So, dudes who are interested and reading this thread: don't be emotional work martyrs because you think that's the only way. Just as the women in your life shouldn't have to carry alone, neither do you. Women-- or at least this woman-- want to be and have partners on difficult and heavy emotional work. Something like setting up a wonderful date for your SO, well, that's a great thing to do in a quiet way so that it just happens for her. But the big stuff... the big stuff has to be tackled together.
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:15 AM on July 20, 2015 [30 favorites]
This lead, at the end, to accusations that he had "already changed a lot for me" and "you're never happy and if you're not happy I'll just hear about it again later" and "I'm never comfortable around you." The worst was when he said, "Everything I say upsets you and I've tried everything!" and I pointed out that he had tried everything to stop upsetting me except asking what upset me he told me, "That's because it's totally random! It's not coherent and it doesn't make any sense!" Which, like, dude, I get that it feels that way at this point, but holy shit that didn't ring any 'oh, perhaps i am approaching this the wrong way' bells? He would also say that "You bring up problems and it's always about "us" but then I have to fix it!" after discussions where I appealed to him repeatedly to help me figure out how to make things better or presented possible solutions (which he never had any ideas or suggestions or feedback or anything else about except a vague, "We can try it.")
At the time it was hugely painful (all right, I'll be honest, it still is), but now I'm a couple of weeks out it's also just fucking bizarre. Like, you're willing to do emotional work to try and make me happy, but not to bring me in on it? You'll do stuff for me, but only if it doesn't involve collaboration?
So, dudes who are interested and reading this thread: don't be emotional work martyrs because you think that's the only way. Just as the women in your life shouldn't have to carry alone, neither do you. Women-- or at least this woman-- want to be and have partners on difficult and heavy emotional work. Something like setting up a wonderful date for your SO, well, that's a great thing to do in a quiet way so that it just happens for her. But the big stuff... the big stuff has to be tackled together.
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:15 AM on July 20, 2015 [30 favorites]
> Maybe this should be a new post, I'm not quite sure, but the author of this piece (Jess Zimmerman) has a new piece up about burning her life down and starting over and what midlife crisis looks like for women that touches again on some of these issues of the amount of our life we expend managing other people's needs and expectations. Killing it this week, Jess is.
That's a great article, and this:
posted by languagehat at 11:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
That's a great article, and this:
It takes a perverse kind of bravery to start over—it’s a selfish and deluded thing to do, and you need that courage to deal with what comes next. It’s one thing to burn your life down and walk out of the ashes, but nobody tells you the phoenix is born as a tender, featherless baby bird....made me think of this post on being released from prison, which made me realize that all too many marriages and relationships are all too much like prison. Not a new insight, I know, but I thought I'd mention it.
posted by languagehat at 11:18 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
Of course women also have feelings about aging, but those feelings are seen as more concrete, more explicable: we have biological clocks, empty nest syndrome, menopause. Depending on whom you ask, we’re either too silly or too competent to concern ourselves with grand neuroses about mortality; we don’t have the cognitive capacity, or else we don’t have the leisure to be so self-absorbed. Either way, the existential collapse is a masculine enterprise.
No, no, I'll sit here quietly stunned at recognizing how true those words are for me.
posted by Kitteh at 11:19 AM on July 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
No, no, I'll sit here quietly stunned at recognizing how true those words are for me.
posted by Kitteh at 11:19 AM on July 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
For the 201 class we'll be discussing How About You Cook Most Of The Meals For A Change, Women Don't Have Some Cooking Gene That Men Don't.
Heh. Just last night my partner said that if I would make a marinade for the steaks and do the prep work, he would grill them. I asked why he didn't just do both jobs, and he said 'Well, I only know the one marinade recipe and these steaks are too good for them.' I was all, yo bro, I would just google steak marinade, you too can google steak marinade, we live in the best possible place and time to learn a new steak marinade. He seemed astonished that I didn't just have a variety of steak marinade recipes ready to go off the top of my head.
posted by palindromic at 11:19 AM on July 20, 2015 [71 favorites]
Heh. Just last night my partner said that if I would make a marinade for the steaks and do the prep work, he would grill them. I asked why he didn't just do both jobs, and he said 'Well, I only know the one marinade recipe and these steaks are too good for them.' I was all, yo bro, I would just google steak marinade, you too can google steak marinade, we live in the best possible place and time to learn a new steak marinade. He seemed astonished that I didn't just have a variety of steak marinade recipes ready to go off the top of my head.
posted by palindromic at 11:19 AM on July 20, 2015 [71 favorites]
Oh wait no, the worst part was when he told me, "I can only be around you for short periods of time," and "I can't talk to you about anything and I have to walk on eggshells around you," or maybe, "I'm miserable around you." It's so terrible to not know what was his trauma and depression and immaturity, which I can't touch, and what's a legitimate criticism of my tendency to hold my significant others to very high standards and/or present myself too aggressively when I have problems. So now I've gotten handed post-breakup a huge bundle of emotional work, both his and mine, and I can't tell which is which so I can do my own and not touch his with a ten-foot pole.
I would like to sign the "other people's trauma" opt-out form for emotional work now please.
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:27 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
I would like to sign the "other people's trauma" opt-out form for emotional work now please.
posted by WidgetAlley at 11:27 AM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
Further Emotional Labour courses available:
102: How To Pick Up The Damn Phone And Call Someone You Want To Be In Touch With
107: The Washing Machine Is Not A Terrible Eldritch Horror*
115 (compulsory course): How To Pay Attention In A Conversation And Ask Meaningful Questions
210: Saying Thank You For The Little Things
211 (offered Fall Term only): How To Buy Christmas Presents Before 24 December
301 (double credit): The Grocery Store; Navigating the Pitfalls of Shopping and Meal Planning
* Something we have yet to educate our 66-year-old male neighbour about. My female neighbour does his laundry because Old Man Can't Learn Things? and she's the only one in the building with her own washer, and she's away on tour... so naturally I have to do it, and am doing so right now. Because pressing two buttons and pouring in a measured amount of detergent is somehow Too Much To Handle.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:30 AM on July 20, 2015 [50 favorites]
102: How To Pick Up The Damn Phone And Call Someone You Want To Be In Touch With
107: The Washing Machine Is Not A Terrible Eldritch Horror*
115 (compulsory course): How To Pay Attention In A Conversation And Ask Meaningful Questions
210: Saying Thank You For The Little Things
211 (offered Fall Term only): How To Buy Christmas Presents Before 24 December
301 (double credit): The Grocery Store; Navigating the Pitfalls of Shopping and Meal Planning
* Something we have yet to educate our 66-year-old male neighbour about. My female neighbour does his laundry because Old Man Can't Learn Things? and she's the only one in the building with her own washer, and she's away on tour... so naturally I have to do it, and am doing so right now. Because pressing two buttons and pouring in a measured amount of detergent is somehow Too Much To Handle.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:30 AM on July 20, 2015 [50 favorites]
My dear friend who's the one I was thinking of when I wrote that reciprocated emotional labor feels like the opposite of work, she has elderly parents. Her mother, in her eighties, takes care of her father, who is slowly dying of dementia. It's stevedore-hard work and getting harder even as my friend's mother gets older and less able to do it. (He's been incontinent of bladder for some years, now, and starting to lose bowel, too. He's under doctor's orders to get up from his wheelchair and walk around the house several times a day; it's up to his wife to hector him until he gets up and then coach him to use his walker correctly so he doesn't god forbid trip and fall. He's still getting sent to doctors' appointments all over the place for, like, mole checks and so on to make sure he doesn't get melanoma or prostate cancer, all of which is increasingly exhausting as he gets increasingly impossible to load into a car. And this is just the stuff I know about.)
This--watching her mother exhaust herself and very likely shorten her own life--is my friend's major malfunction in life, worse than her own career woes or problems in her own love relationship. She puts in hours at her parents' house daily, trying fruitlessly to lessen her mother's load. Her mother will not "put him in a home" or get more home health aides in. She doesn't want to leave her beloved husband in the hands of strangers, and caring for him is her duty. She can't not do it, and my friend's efforts to get her to think of other ways to handle it only make her mother feel worse and worry more, so she's desisted. She goes over there every day and is miserable every day, terrified and depressed and helpless. Feeling afraid, sad, and helpless all day every day is her and her mother's allotted emotional labor. They've been doing it for years.
I was thinking about this thread the other day and I asked my friend, if the tables were turned, do you think your father would care for your mother the way she cares for him? My friend told me that when her mother was recovering from C-section after my friend was born she had to be assisted to walk. One day she asked her husband to help her out in the garden so she could sit in the sun. After an hour or two she needed to use the bathroom, so she called her husband. When he finally heard her, he came out in a pet because she'd disturbed him while he was working. He helped her inside, complaining the while, and that was the last time my friend's mother got to go outside until she'd recovered from her C-section and could walk on her own.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:35 AM on July 20, 2015 [40 favorites]
This--watching her mother exhaust herself and very likely shorten her own life--is my friend's major malfunction in life, worse than her own career woes or problems in her own love relationship. She puts in hours at her parents' house daily, trying fruitlessly to lessen her mother's load. Her mother will not "put him in a home" or get more home health aides in. She doesn't want to leave her beloved husband in the hands of strangers, and caring for him is her duty. She can't not do it, and my friend's efforts to get her to think of other ways to handle it only make her mother feel worse and worry more, so she's desisted. She goes over there every day and is miserable every day, terrified and depressed and helpless. Feeling afraid, sad, and helpless all day every day is her and her mother's allotted emotional labor. They've been doing it for years.
I was thinking about this thread the other day and I asked my friend, if the tables were turned, do you think your father would care for your mother the way she cares for him? My friend told me that when her mother was recovering from C-section after my friend was born she had to be assisted to walk. One day she asked her husband to help her out in the garden so she could sit in the sun. After an hour or two she needed to use the bathroom, so she called her husband. When he finally heard her, he came out in a pet because she'd disturbed him while he was working. He helped her inside, complaining the while, and that was the last time my friend's mother got to go outside until she'd recovered from her C-section and could walk on her own.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:35 AM on July 20, 2015 [40 favorites]
Conversations like this make it more visible. But how can we all express the value of this labor without seeming whiny?
In my relationship (where my wife and I are about 70% nontypical on these issues and 30% insanely, sadly common) it is a flat-out statement of "can you do X? I just do not have the energy in me for it and Y as well" where such things are emotionally/mentally draining, not just time or physical energy. We don't do the level of value-assignment that the beeminder folks I linked above do, but there's for sure some effort at a sense of equity.
I doubt there's any painless way to drop it into the outside world. (And also in relationships with partners hostile to it) People don't like to reframe their idea of how the invisible world works. Introverts get pushed to do things they would find draining and it never gets easier telling new people no, I really don't have it in me to do two of those mixer things in a week. And that's a case where you're not asking them to recognize a deep layer of sexism in their way of thinking & behaving.
Beyond just the two person dynamic - where I just do not understand how anyone manages to have a happy relationship without a fairly constant low-level amount of communication about juggling this stuff - I think you pretty much have got to have allies "in the other camp" to make it work.
Mudpuppie's cousin-in-law can't opt-out of the table clearing without some amount of unfair mental flack without some male ally standing up and just being a part of table cleaning. In an ideal world it's her husband. But without any man standing up and just picking up a plate without being asked there's that perception that she's asked 4 other women to each increase their share of the work by 25% One of the layabout men needs to stand up and draw attention to the fact that no, she's just opting not to do 200% of her part of the shitwork because of magic Palmolive girliebits or something. Only Nixon Could Go To (Help With The) China?
posted by phearlez at 11:37 AM on July 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
In my relationship (where my wife and I are about 70% nontypical on these issues and 30% insanely, sadly common) it is a flat-out statement of "can you do X? I just do not have the energy in me for it and Y as well" where such things are emotionally/mentally draining, not just time or physical energy. We don't do the level of value-assignment that the beeminder folks I linked above do, but there's for sure some effort at a sense of equity.
I doubt there's any painless way to drop it into the outside world. (And also in relationships with partners hostile to it) People don't like to reframe their idea of how the invisible world works. Introverts get pushed to do things they would find draining and it never gets easier telling new people no, I really don't have it in me to do two of those mixer things in a week. And that's a case where you're not asking them to recognize a deep layer of sexism in their way of thinking & behaving.
Beyond just the two person dynamic - where I just do not understand how anyone manages to have a happy relationship without a fairly constant low-level amount of communication about juggling this stuff - I think you pretty much have got to have allies "in the other camp" to make it work.
Mudpuppie's cousin-in-law can't opt-out of the table clearing without some amount of unfair mental flack without some male ally standing up and just being a part of table cleaning. In an ideal world it's her husband. But without any man standing up and just picking up a plate without being asked there's that perception that she's asked 4 other women to each increase their share of the work by 25% One of the layabout men needs to stand up and draw attention to the fact that no, she's just opting not to do 200% of her part of the shitwork because of magic Palmolive girliebits or something. Only Nixon Could Go To (Help With The) China?
posted by phearlez at 11:37 AM on July 20, 2015 [19 favorites]
Nthing fffm's suggestion for guys to talk to their gay male friends about this -- but don't be surprised if their relationships also have an unequal distribution of emotional labor. I brought up this thread last night while having cocktails with, among others, two married (to each other) gay men. One of them immediately identified himself as the partner who does all the emotional labor, and the other was basically and unapologetically like "yep, he does."
Thanks to this thread, I have lots of thoughts swirling around in my brain. I'm AFAB/transmasculine, and most folks in my personal and professional spheres use he/him as I've asked, but I am still expected to provide emotional labor in so many of the ways described above. I'd like to believe that's resulting from my spheres holding men to a higher standard re: emotional labor .... but I'm pretty sure that's not what's happening.
posted by zebra at 11:37 AM on July 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thanks to this thread, I have lots of thoughts swirling around in my brain. I'm AFAB/transmasculine, and most folks in my personal and professional spheres use he/him as I've asked, but I am still expected to provide emotional labor in so many of the ways described above. I'd like to believe that's resulting from my spheres holding men to a higher standard re: emotional labor .... but I'm pretty sure that's not what's happening.
posted by zebra at 11:37 AM on July 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
OMG, F3M, the washing machine!
1: my cats disagree :)
2: When I was 10, my mom was hurt in an accident. My Dad tried to get *me* to explain how to use the machine. He had never cleaned a piece of clothing. My brother and sister were grown adults away from home by then. He had gotten through 2 kids going all the way to adulthood without learning that. 2 divorces! When he was single, his *mother* came over once a week to do laundry.
posted by Ambient Echo at 11:37 AM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
1: my cats disagree :)
2: When I was 10, my mom was hurt in an accident. My Dad tried to get *me* to explain how to use the machine. He had never cleaned a piece of clothing. My brother and sister were grown adults away from home by then. He had gotten through 2 kids going all the way to adulthood without learning that. 2 divorces! When he was single, his *mother* came over once a week to do laundry.
posted by Ambient Echo at 11:37 AM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
107: The Washing Machine Is Not A Terrible Eldritch Horror*
BRB, I need to go call my mom and thank her again for when she called me over at around age 8-10 and said here, let me introduce you to this thing called "a washing machine." I mentioned that to her once years back and she laughed and said she had no recall of that at all. Which is one of so many reasons I believe that the way we model our behavior - not what we tell them is important - is what's important for us as parents. Mom surely did more laundry than anyone else in our house when I was growing up, but it was one of a billion things that were discussed as this shit does not just happen by magic events.
211 (offered Fall Term only): How To Buy Christmas Presents Before 24 December
No no no no no no no. It is offered all year, but if you wait till the September course offering to sign up to start learning you just get an automatic F and are told you need to sign up for the Jan-May offering to retake it.
posted by phearlez at 11:48 AM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
BRB, I need to go call my mom and thank her again for when she called me over at around age 8-10 and said here, let me introduce you to this thing called "a washing machine." I mentioned that to her once years back and she laughed and said she had no recall of that at all. Which is one of so many reasons I believe that the way we model our behavior - not what we tell them is important - is what's important for us as parents. Mom surely did more laundry than anyone else in our house when I was growing up, but it was one of a billion things that were discussed as this shit does not just happen by magic events.
211 (offered Fall Term only): How To Buy Christmas Presents Before 24 December
No no no no no no no. It is offered all year, but if you wait till the September course offering to sign up to start learning you just get an automatic F and are told you need to sign up for the Jan-May offering to retake it.
posted by phearlez at 11:48 AM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
This issue cannot be solved in one neat paradigm.
Lyn Never captured what I was trying to say about applying the Ask vs Guess framework.
However, like rmd1023, I want to draw parallels to Ask/Guess in my same-sex relationship where neuro-diversity is also involved. My wife does perform emotional labor (social navigation) as described in my first post, and at first glance, it seemed like an even exchange.
However, as more women added their experiences, I've realized that emotional labor comprises of more than I expected, and I do the bulk of that labor. As expressed by others, this emotional labor aspect speaks to a nagging, previously unarticulated discontent that I've repeatedly dismissed.
Perhaps all told, we both perform more emotional labor than heterosexual couples, but in my relationship, an imbalance does exist. I'm not sure, and am too unversed in queer theory to know or understand.
For awhile, I've recognized Ask/Guess dynamics in our relationship, and as someone who comes from a pathological Guess background, I've had to revise not only my approach, but understanding towards her behavior. Part of this involves recognizing that Ask does not yield the the Power my Guess assumes.
I say Power, because the same-sex aspects seem to speak to something involved that influences more than just gender - something that my pathological guess background wants to label as "entitlement" - an unfair judgement that I now associate with Ask.
Instead, perhaps, disparity of emotional labor speaks not to a single paradigm, but the relationship and influence of various forms of power dynamics to the value of emotional labor.
Which is why, XMLicious, I cautioned against what you wrote. I wasn't trying to call you out. My initial thoughts were along the same line and I was inclined to agree with you, but seeing it in black&white (or Blue), and knowing how well it fit with my pathological guess background (which I'm not accusing you of!) encouraged me to rethink this.
As it stands, my wife won't read this thread. I asked in a guess way, and she responded in an Ask, rejecting the idea of performing this emotional labor. Impasse. Power dynamics. The question remains how to implement change?
Resentment and crone islands aren't the paths for me. Clearly the value of emotional labor needs to be inflated. Attaching a hypothetical price raises awareness and prompted this conversation. Seems to me that my natural inclination to package things neatly may too soon shut that conversation down.
posted by bindr at 12:00 PM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Lyn Never captured what I was trying to say about applying the Ask vs Guess framework.
However, like rmd1023, I want to draw parallels to Ask/Guess in my same-sex relationship where neuro-diversity is also involved. My wife does perform emotional labor (social navigation) as described in my first post, and at first glance, it seemed like an even exchange.
However, as more women added their experiences, I've realized that emotional labor comprises of more than I expected, and I do the bulk of that labor. As expressed by others, this emotional labor aspect speaks to a nagging, previously unarticulated discontent that I've repeatedly dismissed.
Perhaps all told, we both perform more emotional labor than heterosexual couples, but in my relationship, an imbalance does exist. I'm not sure, and am too unversed in queer theory to know or understand.
For awhile, I've recognized Ask/Guess dynamics in our relationship, and as someone who comes from a pathological Guess background, I've had to revise not only my approach, but understanding towards her behavior. Part of this involves recognizing that Ask does not yield the the Power my Guess assumes.
I say Power, because the same-sex aspects seem to speak to something involved that influences more than just gender - something that my pathological guess background wants to label as "entitlement" - an unfair judgement that I now associate with Ask.
Instead, perhaps, disparity of emotional labor speaks not to a single paradigm, but the relationship and influence of various forms of power dynamics to the value of emotional labor.
Which is why, XMLicious, I cautioned against what you wrote. I wasn't trying to call you out. My initial thoughts were along the same line and I was inclined to agree with you, but seeing it in black&white (or Blue), and knowing how well it fit with my pathological guess background (which I'm not accusing you of!) encouraged me to rethink this.
As it stands, my wife won't read this thread. I asked in a guess way, and she responded in an Ask, rejecting the idea of performing this emotional labor. Impasse. Power dynamics. The question remains how to implement change?
Resentment and crone islands aren't the paths for me. Clearly the value of emotional labor needs to be inflated. Attaching a hypothetical price raises awareness and prompted this conversation. Seems to me that my natural inclination to package things neatly may too soon shut that conversation down.
posted by bindr at 12:00 PM on July 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
but don't be surprised if their relationships also have an unequal distribution of emotional labor
Oh, well yeah. I think though, for heterosexual men, it might be eye-opening to see imbalances when it's two guys (or two women but not being a woman and therefore not privy to the internal dynamics of woman-woman relationships I can't comment); perhaps they'd see "oh wait that's not fair is it?" and apply it to their own relationship.
Oh, and the 100-level course: when a woman spends time listening to your problems, say "Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to me. It really means a lot." And then--this is the lab portion of the course--show her how much you appreciate her listening by reciprocating.
As it stands, my wife won't read this thread. I asked in a guess way, and she responded in an Ask, rejecting the idea of performing this emotional labor. Impasse. Power dynamics. The question remains how to implement change?
Maybe: "I need you to read this thread because I feel like the emotional labour in our relationship is unfairly imbalanced, and I need us to address that together. Step one is me needing you to read this thread by the end of the week so we can sit down and have a long conversation about it." Which, yeah, sucks because it's forcing you to be an explicit Ask person when you're a Guess person by nature.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:04 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Oh, well yeah. I think though, for heterosexual men, it might be eye-opening to see imbalances when it's two guys (or two women but not being a woman and therefore not privy to the internal dynamics of woman-woman relationships I can't comment); perhaps they'd see "oh wait that's not fair is it?" and apply it to their own relationship.
Oh, and the 100-level course: when a woman spends time listening to your problems, say "Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to me. It really means a lot." And then--this is the lab portion of the course--show her how much you appreciate her listening by reciprocating.
As it stands, my wife won't read this thread. I asked in a guess way, and she responded in an Ask, rejecting the idea of performing this emotional labor. Impasse. Power dynamics. The question remains how to implement change?
Maybe: "I need you to read this thread because I feel like the emotional labour in our relationship is unfairly imbalanced, and I need us to address that together. Step one is me needing you to read this thread by the end of the week so we can sit down and have a long conversation about it." Which, yeah, sucks because it's forcing you to be an explicit Ask person when you're a Guess person by nature.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:04 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
This makes me curious: Heterosexual couples, who is the one who takes the cats and dogs in to be euthanized?
This and MonkeyToes posts got me thinking... when I was a kid, I had a dog and a cat. The dog was given away when I was in my early teens and the cat ran away (I think someone let it out on purpose) and I never saw either of them again. I heard later that the dog got mean because the new owners left her outside and overfed her and generally mistreated her. Even thinking of it now (and the fact that now she is either quite an old dog or dead) fills me with this deep, awful sorrow and feeling that I should've been an obnoxious little kid and done everything possible to save my dog and cat, even if it wouldn't have changed anything. Instead I just let it happen to me, because my parents were going through a divorce and my grandmother had just died and I was used to the knowledge that awful things were inevitable and that I had to deal with my emotions myself, and also feeling that abdicating control made these emotions easier to deal with. Just letting bad things happen with my stone face on instead of fighting it or letting anyone know I was sad. (I had younger siblings and my mom left suicide notes around the house when my grandmother died, so I felt like I had to "be strong" for them.)
Anyway, putting aside the massive amount of female conditioning in that paragraph alone, my last ex was such a broken mess about his cat who had died... ten years ago. Of course it's awful, of course it's sad, but if I spoke of his cat in anything but hushed tones he'd get rather mopey and upset if he thought I was being glib. Did we ever talk about my childhood pets? Did he ever bother to process those emotions and think of them as his own to deal with and not to unduly burden others? No, of course not. There was no maturity in how he dealt with the situation. Whenever I mentioned the name of a local town that contained the name of his cat, there was always a hushed "moment of silence" to reinforce how important his emotions and attachment were and that I was responsible for fielding them at any opportunity.
I just thought about at least three other adult men in my life who deal with the death of pets in the same way. I think it ties in with the idea that women experience menopause and empty nest syndrome (it's all about children and fertility, naturally) but are incapable of existential crises. No, we are not. We are just used to processing them and realizing that no one else will be there for us when life goes on.
posted by easter queen at 12:13 PM on July 20, 2015 [31 favorites]
This and MonkeyToes posts got me thinking... when I was a kid, I had a dog and a cat. The dog was given away when I was in my early teens and the cat ran away (I think someone let it out on purpose) and I never saw either of them again. I heard later that the dog got mean because the new owners left her outside and overfed her and generally mistreated her. Even thinking of it now (and the fact that now she is either quite an old dog or dead) fills me with this deep, awful sorrow and feeling that I should've been an obnoxious little kid and done everything possible to save my dog and cat, even if it wouldn't have changed anything. Instead I just let it happen to me, because my parents were going through a divorce and my grandmother had just died and I was used to the knowledge that awful things were inevitable and that I had to deal with my emotions myself, and also feeling that abdicating control made these emotions easier to deal with. Just letting bad things happen with my stone face on instead of fighting it or letting anyone know I was sad. (I had younger siblings and my mom left suicide notes around the house when my grandmother died, so I felt like I had to "be strong" for them.)
Anyway, putting aside the massive amount of female conditioning in that paragraph alone, my last ex was such a broken mess about his cat who had died... ten years ago. Of course it's awful, of course it's sad, but if I spoke of his cat in anything but hushed tones he'd get rather mopey and upset if he thought I was being glib. Did we ever talk about my childhood pets? Did he ever bother to process those emotions and think of them as his own to deal with and not to unduly burden others? No, of course not. There was no maturity in how he dealt with the situation. Whenever I mentioned the name of a local town that contained the name of his cat, there was always a hushed "moment of silence" to reinforce how important his emotions and attachment were and that I was responsible for fielding them at any opportunity.
I just thought about at least three other adult men in my life who deal with the death of pets in the same way. I think it ties in with the idea that women experience menopause and empty nest syndrome (it's all about children and fertility, naturally) but are incapable of existential crises. No, we are not. We are just used to processing them and realizing that no one else will be there for us when life goes on.
posted by easter queen at 12:13 PM on July 20, 2015 [31 favorites]
Thank you sciatrix, for getting the ball rolling on all these stories. I'm only halfway through all the comments but already have my head full of new ideas on how I can set clearer boundaries with the hubby and kids and more effectively "own" my own behavior.
And I more fully understand my giddy delight and glee in spending 24 hours all by myself in a new place before my husband joined me for a few days with my parents. We enjoy each other and had a great 5 days on a 31' sailboat...but that one day in which I went everywhere, did everything, met everyone, learned everything, ate where I wanted and never once had to ask anyone what they wanted or how they felt? Priceless. That was the real vacation. Hubby thinks we should send me out as the advance scout on all future vacations. Yep. Gonna happen.
posted by heidiola at 12:13 PM on July 20, 2015 [23 favorites]
And I more fully understand my giddy delight and glee in spending 24 hours all by myself in a new place before my husband joined me for a few days with my parents. We enjoy each other and had a great 5 days on a 31' sailboat...but that one day in which I went everywhere, did everything, met everyone, learned everything, ate where I wanted and never once had to ask anyone what they wanted or how they felt? Priceless. That was the real vacation. Hubby thinks we should send me out as the advance scout on all future vacations. Yep. Gonna happen.
posted by heidiola at 12:13 PM on July 20, 2015 [23 favorites]
Hurray for Maecenas, who has asked the question.
posted by wintersweet at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
Sigh. I love that dbr linked the Jesse Zimmerman piece separately on the Blue, but am loving less the responses from male posters about it. Guess you can't have multiple female-oriented threads that go positively....
posted by Kitteh at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think I found track one for the Crone Island mixtape: A New Villian by Amy Bezunartea
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:35 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:35 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man, this makes me realize how my relative emotional denseness (I'm female) has resulted in inadvertent equity. He takes care of presents to his family and thank you notes in response to presents to him from my family, dealt with Christmas cards last year, is the pointperson for social gatherings with his people, has eagerly taken on independent relationships with certain of my people, assigns himself specific regular chores because he knows he's somewhat blind to as-needed chores, thanks me when I make travel arrangements etc, all without my asking...brb going to go hug my husband now.
posted by mchorn at 12:59 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by mchorn at 12:59 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
I was so relieved that someone finally asked on the green that I instantly started crying. This shit is real. High five to Maecenas, who gets so many brownie points for doing something that a great number of women in here asked any dude at all to do. He (I think "he") did it well, though.
posted by lauranesson at 1:02 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by lauranesson at 1:02 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is a great thread, from a man's perspective.
A reminder for the gentlemen out there: if your dad (or if you know of a dad who) did a fair share of emotional labor (both real and symbolic like house cleaning and dish doing), then just remember that's not common, as evidenced in this thread here.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 1:04 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
A reminder for the gentlemen out there: if your dad (or if you know of a dad who) did a fair share of emotional labor (both real and symbolic like house cleaning and dish doing), then just remember that's not common, as evidenced in this thread here.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 1:04 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hi folks, author here. I made a MeFi account solely because this thread was so great (well, and because MeFi is reliably the best version of the internet, but that never made me pay my $5 before), and I thought seriously about whether I was going to out myself or not. But now the other thread is going kind of pear-shaped (last I checked; I put my boyfriend in charge of reading it for me) and this one is still great and so I thought it might make me feel better to weigh in so that's what I'm doing.
Here's the thing -- some of my friends have looked at this thread and been like "oh wow, your piece changed lives for people" but obviously it didn't. It just got the discussion rolling, and the discussion changed lives. Because I have read every single one of the 600+ comments here, and they made me understand what happened in my marriage in a way I have never understood it before. You guys grasped and articulated things about emotional labor that I didn't and couldn't. If I'd read this thread before I wrote the other essay, it might have been a very different piece.
I mean, or it might not. I never wanted to go on at length about my husband's failings in terms of seeing me, understanding my needs, taking me seriously and not for granted. It's not a hit piece! The intention was to show other women who might be going through a similar thing that they aren't alone, not to bellyache at length about my own painful details, though if I'd understood then how cathartic it could be to air such common grievances I might have done so. But now that reticence is, I guess, being taken as evidence that I had no reason to leave, or that my leaving was selfish (which it was, but you know... women get such a low bar on how selfish we're allowed to be). And I feel like -- here, only steps away, there are dozens of women hinting at why "I need to move and you won't do it" might be a big enough problem to kick off the slow torpedoing of a relationship! And yet, last I looked, people were still feeling defensive of my ex, and angry about my self-absorption. That's an understandable reading of the piece, given the water we swim in. But it's a bummer.
I guess the tl;dr version is that I wanted to say thanks -- this thread helped me better understand a concept I'd already written 2,000 words about, and a divorce I'd already written 4,000 words about. Crone Island forever.
posted by babelfish at 1:34 PM on July 20, 2015 [292 favorites]
Here's the thing -- some of my friends have looked at this thread and been like "oh wow, your piece changed lives for people" but obviously it didn't. It just got the discussion rolling, and the discussion changed lives. Because I have read every single one of the 600+ comments here, and they made me understand what happened in my marriage in a way I have never understood it before. You guys grasped and articulated things about emotional labor that I didn't and couldn't. If I'd read this thread before I wrote the other essay, it might have been a very different piece.
I mean, or it might not. I never wanted to go on at length about my husband's failings in terms of seeing me, understanding my needs, taking me seriously and not for granted. It's not a hit piece! The intention was to show other women who might be going through a similar thing that they aren't alone, not to bellyache at length about my own painful details, though if I'd understood then how cathartic it could be to air such common grievances I might have done so. But now that reticence is, I guess, being taken as evidence that I had no reason to leave, or that my leaving was selfish (which it was, but you know... women get such a low bar on how selfish we're allowed to be). And I feel like -- here, only steps away, there are dozens of women hinting at why "I need to move and you won't do it" might be a big enough problem to kick off the slow torpedoing of a relationship! And yet, last I looked, people were still feeling defensive of my ex, and angry about my self-absorption. That's an understandable reading of the piece, given the water we swim in. But it's a bummer.
I guess the tl;dr version is that I wanted to say thanks -- this thread helped me better understand a concept I'd already written 2,000 words about, and a divorce I'd already written 4,000 words about. Crone Island forever.
posted by babelfish at 1:34 PM on July 20, 2015 [292 favorites]
Welcome, babelfish! I think you've stumbled upon one of the best MeFi threads on feminist topics.
And as far as "selfish" is concerned - men divorce their wives when the wives become ill at a much greater rate than vice-versa. So who is selfish then? (Note, I'm not saying divorce is bad, or you can't ever ever divorce someone who is ill. But "for better or for worse" ought to have SOME meaning.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [24 favorites]
And as far as "selfish" is concerned - men divorce their wives when the wives become ill at a much greater rate than vice-versa. So who is selfish then? (Note, I'm not saying divorce is bad, or you can't ever ever divorce someone who is ill. But "for better or for worse" ought to have SOME meaning.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [24 favorites]
Here's the thing -- some of my friends have looked at this thread and been like "oh wow, your piece changed lives for people" but obviously it didn't.
Well, here's one, if you're starting a tally.
posted by mudpuppie at 1:42 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Well, here's one, if you're starting a tally.
posted by mudpuppie at 1:42 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Resentment and crone islands aren't the paths for me.
I guess I'm thinking of Crone Island a little differently. As a place where emotional labour is fully valued and repaid in kind. We offer to make each other drinks. No one worries about whether the dishes get done because we know all hands will cheerfully volunteer without having to be asked.
Look at this very thread- how much emotional labour all of the participants are doing each for the others.
Fully valued. Repaid in kind. Beautiful.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:44 PM on July 20, 2015 [57 favorites]
I guess I'm thinking of Crone Island a little differently. As a place where emotional labour is fully valued and repaid in kind. We offer to make each other drinks. No one worries about whether the dishes get done because we know all hands will cheerfully volunteer without having to be asked.
Look at this very thread- how much emotional labour all of the participants are doing each for the others.
Fully valued. Repaid in kind. Beautiful.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:44 PM on July 20, 2015 [57 favorites]
Well, here's one, if you're starting a tally.
And two.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:47 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
And two.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:47 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
babelfish - the part about you saying you needed to move and your ex begrudgingly dragging his feet to agree a year later was such a well written punch to the gut. i can see how people (men) who aren't used to how grinding it can be to constantly quiet yourself for a relationship wouldn't see what a big bomb that section was - but for me it was one of my favorite parts and super illustrative of the things i went through in my previous long term relationships. thanks for chiming in here.
posted by nadawi at 1:56 PM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:56 PM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
Three!
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:58 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:58 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
mudpuppie: Don't expect your partner to be the keeper of all knowable facts, basically. Place some responsibility on yourself to know them as well. Keep a notebook, if you need to.
Thank you, mupuppie! I brought this over from the AskMe because while my husband does a lot of the emotional labor things discussed in this topic (buys the Christmas presents, sends the Christmas cards, makes his own doctor appointments, cooks for us or at least makes sure we eat, etc.), he consistently expects me to be the keeper of almost all knowable facts. Where are my keys, what plans do we have this weekend, is there a grocery list, how do you run the washer, how much money am I supposed to put in our joint checking?
And often these requests to access my brain storage space are made while I'm engrossed in something else, and I can get pretty frustrated when asked to stop what I'm doing so my husband can use me as the all-knowing locator of wallets.
How patient I am with him about it is probably pretty well connected to how many students and faculty have been doing the exact same thing to me at work.
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:03 PM on July 20, 2015 [25 favorites]
Thank you, mupuppie! I brought this over from the AskMe because while my husband does a lot of the emotional labor things discussed in this topic (buys the Christmas presents, sends the Christmas cards, makes his own doctor appointments, cooks for us or at least makes sure we eat, etc.), he consistently expects me to be the keeper of almost all knowable facts. Where are my keys, what plans do we have this weekend, is there a grocery list, how do you run the washer, how much money am I supposed to put in our joint checking?
And often these requests to access my brain storage space are made while I'm engrossed in something else, and I can get pretty frustrated when asked to stop what I'm doing so my husband can use me as the all-knowing locator of wallets.
How patient I am with him about it is probably pretty well connected to how many students and faculty have been doing the exact same thing to me at work.
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:03 PM on July 20, 2015 [25 favorites]
some of my friends have looked at this thread and been like "oh wow, your piece changed lives for people" but obviously it didn't. It just got the discussion rolling, and the discussion changed lives.
These are not mutually exclusive things, nor did one happen without the other. Accepting thanks and credit for the work that started something doesn't diminish the work later done to build upon it.
posted by phearlez at 2:14 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
These are not mutually exclusive things, nor did one happen without the other. Accepting thanks and credit for the work that started something doesn't diminish the work later done to build upon it.
posted by phearlez at 2:14 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yeah, we had several "I know you think I want to move and you need to stay, but actually I NEED to move and you need to stay" conversations, including some "here's what you can do to make this easier on me in the meantime" agreements that were never honored (one of those was the planned move to Baltimore I mention in the piece, but he reneged on that one). Until this thread came along, though, I truly just didn't put together how common that was, or where it came from, or how it tied into patriarchal attitudes about what can and should be expected of a man. I thought he was just naturally more cautious, more inert, lower voltage -- and he was, but he was also genuinely unaware of how much emotional labor he was shirking.
And that can be okay. I think there are several relationships that have been discussed in this thread that are going to be okay, or good, or great. But I'm never going to be the person who can provide 100% of the emotional work or 100% of the momentum, or even manage the extensive retraining it would take to get my ex to be fully present at the level I needed. I'm just too shitty at stuff! The people on the other thread saying "ugh this lady is a train wreck" are not wrong. Where they're wrong is in thinking that "I have more emotional needs than either of us were prepared for and you're not ready or willing to meet them" is an unfair reason for a woman to end a relationship.
phearlez, you're absolutely right and I didn't mean to be ungracious! My point was just that for me, the greatest success of the piece has been the fact that it spun off this conversation.
posted by babelfish at 2:22 PM on July 20, 2015 [38 favorites]
And that can be okay. I think there are several relationships that have been discussed in this thread that are going to be okay, or good, or great. But I'm never going to be the person who can provide 100% of the emotional work or 100% of the momentum, or even manage the extensive retraining it would take to get my ex to be fully present at the level I needed. I'm just too shitty at stuff! The people on the other thread saying "ugh this lady is a train wreck" are not wrong. Where they're wrong is in thinking that "I have more emotional needs than either of us were prepared for and you're not ready or willing to meet them" is an unfair reason for a woman to end a relationship.
phearlez, you're absolutely right and I didn't mean to be ungracious! My point was just that for me, the greatest success of the piece has been the fact that it spun off this conversation.
posted by babelfish at 2:22 PM on July 20, 2015 [38 favorites]
Where they're wrong is in thinking that "I have more emotional needs than either of us were prepared for and you're not ready or willing to meet them" is an unfair reason for a woman to end a relationship.
I would suspect it's a hugely common reason for why marriages end. I would cynically suspect that it's actually more "I have emotional needs and you're not ready or willing to meet them" is even more common.
posted by jaguar at 2:44 PM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
I would suspect it's a hugely common reason for why marriages end. I would cynically suspect that it's actually more "I have emotional needs and you're not ready or willing to meet them" is even more common.
posted by jaguar at 2:44 PM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
And four.
posted by pemberkins at 2:47 PM on July 20, 2015
posted by pemberkins at 2:47 PM on July 20, 2015
jaguar I think you misspelled 'realistically' there
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:48 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:48 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Babelfish, I am so glad you showed up here. Your story (and the resulting thread) has been a revelation for me and finally – finally! – given me words for something that has bothered me for so long and that I could never articulate. Count me in as another person who's life this has changed.
I haven’t read all the way through your second article yet, but so far it’s reminding me a bit of my own marriage breakdown. I had a good husband that I loved but because of one major issue, I had to leave him. He continues to this day to be confused about why I left. Which is nuts, because, being a big believer in open communication, I told him more times than I can remember – “Hey, [this issue] is a real problem for me. I feel scared/sad/worried/depressed when you do it. I can’t live like this. I love you but if something doesn’t change, I will have to leave.” I was that direct. I told him this multiple times. Then, when I finally did leave we had multiple long arguments about why I was leaving because as he said, he was a good husband! He never hit me, he never messed around with other women, he helped around the house, etc. I was like – that is BASELINE behavior. You don’t get awards for things you are or are not supposed to be doing to begin with! I reminded him I told him multiple times what my problems were and what I would do if they were not addressed. I actually reminded him of this MULTIPLE TIMES AS WELL. It was insanity. I was like, THERE IS NO WAY FOR ME TO BE MORE CLEAR ON THIS. He still doesn’t know why I left and that encapsulates it for me. He heard what he wanted to hear, what was convenient for him. If it didn’t cause him any issues, he had no problem listening to me and hearing what I said. If it did, he mentally disregarded it.
Anyway, that was five years ago. Fast forward to now and I’ve gone out a few times with a guy that I like. I know he really likes me too. I know he loves being around me. He is a very progressive, liberal guy and seems to be a feminist in every other way without even trying. Super respectful of women, takes them seriously, all of it. He told me he wanted to take things slow. Fine. We recently had a talk and he told me again that he doesn’t feel ready for anything serious but he loves hanging out with me and he’s not dating anyone else. I know both of these things are true. He said he’s trying to figure out why he doesn’t feel ready (he’s a few years out of a long term marriage), but he thinks it’s because he’s not ready for the emotional commitment of a relationship. When I asked him to elaborate he said he really likes hanging around with his guy friends because nothing is expected of him and he feels like he can relax. So I asked, then why even date women? Why not just hang out with your guy friends? And he said that he loves being around women because they’re kind, and soft and comforting and they make him feel relaxed and good in a way that men don’t. And I was like – you mean nurturing? And he was like – YES, nurturing. And so I then took the opportunity to tell him briefly about your article and how emotional labor is the glue that ties things together and makes things feel safe and comforting and everything else, but then he was distracted (conveniently) by a really bad storm that was going on outside at the time and I dropped it.
But essentially, this guy told me that he wants all the good things that come from being with a woman – the comfort and the care – but that he wasn’t “ready” to reciprocate in any way, i.e. he doesn’t WANT to do it. And the thing is - he’s actually an otherwise really nice and smart guy. He was super unaware of what he was actually saying. I think if I told him a similar story, but framed it as just some man who wanted to take from a relationship but give nothing back, he would be horrified by the guy’s behavior. And the reason is that I don’t think he sees it as actual WORK that women do. I think he hasn’t ever thought about it and just assumes that maybe being comforting and nurturing is just a part of a woman’s essence or something and that it’s natural and always just kind of magically there. Like a lot of people, he doesn’t see that there is effort behind it. Because he’s never had to see it.
Anyway, thank you again for putting words to this and getting it out there. You’ve empowered me and countless other women and I hope this is the beginning of a huge awareness-building era in our society around the invisible work that women do.
posted by triggerfinger at 2:48 PM on July 20, 2015 [137 favorites]
I haven’t read all the way through your second article yet, but so far it’s reminding me a bit of my own marriage breakdown. I had a good husband that I loved but because of one major issue, I had to leave him. He continues to this day to be confused about why I left. Which is nuts, because, being a big believer in open communication, I told him more times than I can remember – “Hey, [this issue] is a real problem for me. I feel scared/sad/worried/depressed when you do it. I can’t live like this. I love you but if something doesn’t change, I will have to leave.” I was that direct. I told him this multiple times. Then, when I finally did leave we had multiple long arguments about why I was leaving because as he said, he was a good husband! He never hit me, he never messed around with other women, he helped around the house, etc. I was like – that is BASELINE behavior. You don’t get awards for things you are or are not supposed to be doing to begin with! I reminded him I told him multiple times what my problems were and what I would do if they were not addressed. I actually reminded him of this MULTIPLE TIMES AS WELL. It was insanity. I was like, THERE IS NO WAY FOR ME TO BE MORE CLEAR ON THIS. He still doesn’t know why I left and that encapsulates it for me. He heard what he wanted to hear, what was convenient for him. If it didn’t cause him any issues, he had no problem listening to me and hearing what I said. If it did, he mentally disregarded it.
Anyway, that was five years ago. Fast forward to now and I’ve gone out a few times with a guy that I like. I know he really likes me too. I know he loves being around me. He is a very progressive, liberal guy and seems to be a feminist in every other way without even trying. Super respectful of women, takes them seriously, all of it. He told me he wanted to take things slow. Fine. We recently had a talk and he told me again that he doesn’t feel ready for anything serious but he loves hanging out with me and he’s not dating anyone else. I know both of these things are true. He said he’s trying to figure out why he doesn’t feel ready (he’s a few years out of a long term marriage), but he thinks it’s because he’s not ready for the emotional commitment of a relationship. When I asked him to elaborate he said he really likes hanging around with his guy friends because nothing is expected of him and he feels like he can relax. So I asked, then why even date women? Why not just hang out with your guy friends? And he said that he loves being around women because they’re kind, and soft and comforting and they make him feel relaxed and good in a way that men don’t. And I was like – you mean nurturing? And he was like – YES, nurturing. And so I then took the opportunity to tell him briefly about your article and how emotional labor is the glue that ties things together and makes things feel safe and comforting and everything else, but then he was distracted (conveniently) by a really bad storm that was going on outside at the time and I dropped it.
But essentially, this guy told me that he wants all the good things that come from being with a woman – the comfort and the care – but that he wasn’t “ready” to reciprocate in any way, i.e. he doesn’t WANT to do it. And the thing is - he’s actually an otherwise really nice and smart guy. He was super unaware of what he was actually saying. I think if I told him a similar story, but framed it as just some man who wanted to take from a relationship but give nothing back, he would be horrified by the guy’s behavior. And the reason is that I don’t think he sees it as actual WORK that women do. I think he hasn’t ever thought about it and just assumes that maybe being comforting and nurturing is just a part of a woman’s essence or something and that it’s natural and always just kind of magically there. Like a lot of people, he doesn’t see that there is effort behind it. Because he’s never had to see it.
Anyway, thank you again for putting words to this and getting it out there. You’ve empowered me and countless other women and I hope this is the beginning of a huge awareness-building era in our society around the invisible work that women do.
posted by triggerfinger at 2:48 PM on July 20, 2015 [137 favorites]
This makes me curious: Heterosexual couples, who is the one who takes the cats and dogs in to be euthanized?
When my sweet and lovey Murphy fell ill with epilepsy, the entire family was a complete wreck. But on what turned out to be his last night on Earth, I was the one who dragged a futon mattress into the basement to lie with him on the floor while he recovered from a particularly awful seizure and I was the one who covered him with a wet towel and turned the fan on to get his temperature down. And when we rushed him to the emergency vet at 4AM because the seizures just kept coming and coming and coming, I was the one who demanded that the vet let me stay with him while he was sedated.
The next morning, when the vet called to tell me he was locked in status epilepticus, with very little hope of recovery, I was the one who had to make the decision to show the sweet boy love and mercy. The husband "couldn't", he said. So the Monsters and I went to be with him, to hold him and pet him and cradle him and tell him how much he was loved. We were with him when he breathed his last, and it was devastating.
The husband made a big show of slamming his fist into the wall and railing at the heavens about "his" dog after we came home. Younger Monster bluntly told him to stop making an ass of himself, if he loved Murphy so much, why wasn't he there to help him leave this world peacefully?
We have lost three well loved pets since then. He goes with us now.
It took being shamed by a 9 year-old for him to grasp what a burden he had expected us to carry.
posted by MissySedai at 3:07 PM on July 20, 2015 [113 favorites]
When my sweet and lovey Murphy fell ill with epilepsy, the entire family was a complete wreck. But on what turned out to be his last night on Earth, I was the one who dragged a futon mattress into the basement to lie with him on the floor while he recovered from a particularly awful seizure and I was the one who covered him with a wet towel and turned the fan on to get his temperature down. And when we rushed him to the emergency vet at 4AM because the seizures just kept coming and coming and coming, I was the one who demanded that the vet let me stay with him while he was sedated.
The next morning, when the vet called to tell me he was locked in status epilepticus, with very little hope of recovery, I was the one who had to make the decision to show the sweet boy love and mercy. The husband "couldn't", he said. So the Monsters and I went to be with him, to hold him and pet him and cradle him and tell him how much he was loved. We were with him when he breathed his last, and it was devastating.
The husband made a big show of slamming his fist into the wall and railing at the heavens about "his" dog after we came home. Younger Monster bluntly told him to stop making an ass of himself, if he loved Murphy so much, why wasn't he there to help him leave this world peacefully?
We have lost three well loved pets since then. He goes with us now.
It took being shamed by a 9 year-old for him to grasp what a burden he had expected us to carry.
posted by MissySedai at 3:07 PM on July 20, 2015 [113 favorites]
I can see EVERYTHING through this tiny little knothole in the fence of reality! It's the Aleph* of feminisim! {*The Jorge Luis Borges story of the same name}
Holy goats babelfish! And all you Crones! Thanks 10^9. So grateful.
I have sent my mom to this article and thread. Hi Mom!
posted by sic friat crustulum at 3:24 PM on July 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
Holy goats babelfish! And all you Crones! Thanks 10^9. So grateful.
I have sent my mom to this article and thread. Hi Mom!
posted by sic friat crustulum at 3:24 PM on July 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
This thread is incredible. Reading through all of your stories made me very grateful for a partner who handles his own dang crazy family and sometimes mine, as well, and on balance probably performs more emotional labor than me! But I was also reminded of a few things:
1. My father acting out his anger in so many ways, just short of physical abuse, but with terrifying outbursts, breaking things, and hurtful words, and never apologizing. I mean, never. The man cries all the time, can be so kind, but just doesn't. Get. It. He has three daughters and is often exhausted by our energy, but never understood that his own aggression, and our fear, and our anxiety about it, exhausted us too. And that my mom worked her ass off just to manage it.
2. When we were both in grad school, my ex-boyfriend suddenly had a mental breakdown and stopped going to class, didn't tell anyone, lied about it, avoided his adviser, just totally self-destructed. Once I discovered what was going on, we talked about it and I tried to help him decide where to go next. His parents were totally controlling and enabling, so he both felt justified in being catered to, while also frustrated that he had no control over his own life at age 23. But I remember that his mother wrote me an impassioned email - entreating me to help him come to his senses. She simultaneously treated us both as her spoiled children (when I'd been paying my own way and making my own decisions for years) while also assuming that she had to speak to me in order to solve the situation.
I remember agonizing over my response. I was kind of baffled and offended, but I also worked really hard to reassure her and just spent literally hours coaching my ex in how to talk to his parents.
Oh, man, I thought this would be my reality forever! And I thought I was a bad person for not handling it better! And I totally wish I could go back in time and give myself permission to respond to her email with "I am not your child, nor am I his caretaker. Please discuss this with him." THE END.
I'm very glad to now have a mother-in-law whom I enjoy, but am not obligated to contact. When life is rough, I don't have to keep it going, because my husband will. Thanks to all of you for providing another opportunity for gratitude!
posted by Isingthebodyelectric at 3:25 PM on July 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
1. My father acting out his anger in so many ways, just short of physical abuse, but with terrifying outbursts, breaking things, and hurtful words, and never apologizing. I mean, never. The man cries all the time, can be so kind, but just doesn't. Get. It. He has three daughters and is often exhausted by our energy, but never understood that his own aggression, and our fear, and our anxiety about it, exhausted us too. And that my mom worked her ass off just to manage it.
2. When we were both in grad school, my ex-boyfriend suddenly had a mental breakdown and stopped going to class, didn't tell anyone, lied about it, avoided his adviser, just totally self-destructed. Once I discovered what was going on, we talked about it and I tried to help him decide where to go next. His parents were totally controlling and enabling, so he both felt justified in being catered to, while also frustrated that he had no control over his own life at age 23. But I remember that his mother wrote me an impassioned email - entreating me to help him come to his senses. She simultaneously treated us both as her spoiled children (when I'd been paying my own way and making my own decisions for years) while also assuming that she had to speak to me in order to solve the situation.
I remember agonizing over my response. I was kind of baffled and offended, but I also worked really hard to reassure her and just spent literally hours coaching my ex in how to talk to his parents.
Oh, man, I thought this would be my reality forever! And I thought I was a bad person for not handling it better! And I totally wish I could go back in time and give myself permission to respond to her email with "I am not your child, nor am I his caretaker. Please discuss this with him." THE END.
I'm very glad to now have a mother-in-law whom I enjoy, but am not obligated to contact. When life is rough, I don't have to keep it going, because my husband will. Thanks to all of you for providing another opportunity for gratitude!
posted by Isingthebodyelectric at 3:25 PM on July 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
This is my version of Hell. Exactly this.
Heh. Yeah, there was (and is!) definitely Hell associated with that book. But it was the act of ignoring the book that created the Hell for me.
For a very long time, I could not figure out why all but one of my sisters in-law hated and resented me. I mean, I barely know them. Save one, they're all considerably older than I am. We really don't have anything in common except that all of our husbands are brothers, and most of them live in other states. But...one of them had a little too much to drink at MIL's 80th birthday party and started running her mouth, and was all worked up about "Why doesn't Missy ever have to send any cards or call anyone for their birthdays? She never does her fair share! Why do all the rest of us have to do it?" All the other sisters in-law were silent and clearly quite uncomfortable. MIL (who was sitting right next to me, regaling me with tales of her forays into online Mahjong) laughed long and hard, while her sons and their wives and children looked on in confusion.
Once she collected herself, MIL said "Well, she's the only one of you girls with enough backbone to not let my son be lazy."
So now MIL is 85. I walk the 3 blocks to visit her and FIL just for shits and giggles all the time. I take her wine coolers, she asks if I'm trying to get her drunk. We're super tight. She thinks I'm hilarious. I think she's a scream.
That particular SIL, OTOH, hates and resents me even more, snipes about me constantly...and still sends out cards for everything, lest her husband whine. 20 years older than I am, still hasn't found her backbone, and blames me for it. If she weren't in a completely other state, I probably would have burned her house down already, she aggravates me so.
That, my friends, is the sort of Hell emotional labor can visit upon a family.
posted by MissySedai at 3:34 PM on July 20, 2015 [80 favorites]
Heh. Yeah, there was (and is!) definitely Hell associated with that book. But it was the act of ignoring the book that created the Hell for me.
For a very long time, I could not figure out why all but one of my sisters in-law hated and resented me. I mean, I barely know them. Save one, they're all considerably older than I am. We really don't have anything in common except that all of our husbands are brothers, and most of them live in other states. But...one of them had a little too much to drink at MIL's 80th birthday party and started running her mouth, and was all worked up about "Why doesn't Missy ever have to send any cards or call anyone for their birthdays? She never does her fair share! Why do all the rest of us have to do it?" All the other sisters in-law were silent and clearly quite uncomfortable. MIL (who was sitting right next to me, regaling me with tales of her forays into online Mahjong) laughed long and hard, while her sons and their wives and children looked on in confusion.
Once she collected herself, MIL said "Well, she's the only one of you girls with enough backbone to not let my son be lazy."
So now MIL is 85. I walk the 3 blocks to visit her and FIL just for shits and giggles all the time. I take her wine coolers, she asks if I'm trying to get her drunk. We're super tight. She thinks I'm hilarious. I think she's a scream.
That particular SIL, OTOH, hates and resents me even more, snipes about me constantly...and still sends out cards for everything, lest her husband whine. 20 years older than I am, still hasn't found her backbone, and blames me for it. If she weren't in a completely other state, I probably would have burned her house down already, she aggravates me so.
That, my friends, is the sort of Hell emotional labor can visit upon a family.
posted by MissySedai at 3:34 PM on July 20, 2015 [80 favorites]
This makes me curious: Heterosexual couples, who is the one who takes the cats and dogs in to be euthanized?
Me. Always me. Becuase it is vital for me to be there with them to soothe and calm and pet and love as they take their last soft breath. I did it for my mother's cat because she would have left it for the vet to do. I did it for my partner's cat the day we broke up because he would have passively chosen to let her die from kidney failure (within a week) rather than allow her a sweet loving soft landing.
Both of these people have acknowledged that I did something they couldn't do and have thanked me for it. But I told them in return that I would not have had it any other way. I had learned the hard way that both of them would always put their own needs above more vulnerable lives and I didn't want the lonely or painful death of a pet I had also loved on my conscience.
posted by Thella at 3:36 PM on July 20, 2015 [14 favorites]
Me. Always me. Becuase it is vital for me to be there with them to soothe and calm and pet and love as they take their last soft breath. I did it for my mother's cat because she would have left it for the vet to do. I did it for my partner's cat the day we broke up because he would have passively chosen to let her die from kidney failure (within a week) rather than allow her a sweet loving soft landing.
Both of these people have acknowledged that I did something they couldn't do and have thanked me for it. But I told them in return that I would not have had it any other way. I had learned the hard way that both of them would always put their own needs above more vulnerable lives and I didn't want the lonely or painful death of a pet I had also loved on my conscience.
posted by Thella at 3:36 PM on July 20, 2015 [14 favorites]
We go together for any really worrisome vet appointments. My husband takes them in for routine stuff.
He does deal with all dead animals, though. We've had several die unexpectedly at home (plus the squirrels, birds, possums (Note: possums are known for playing possum, so he also deals with surprisingly alive! possums), and other critters that succumb to each other or our dogs) and I just...can't. I mean, I suppose I would if I had to, but it is significantly less distressing to him than it is for me and it is a thing he does for me.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
He does deal with all dead animals, though. We've had several die unexpectedly at home (plus the squirrels, birds, possums (Note: possums are known for playing possum, so he also deals with surprisingly alive! possums), and other critters that succumb to each other or our dogs) and I just...can't. I mean, I suppose I would if I had to, but it is significantly less distressing to him than it is for me and it is a thing he does for me.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
... and they hated her because she'd never helped clean the table -- which, in my family, is a prescribed task for the women, and the women only.
...
It baffles me.
I suspect that if you could read their minds or get them to state the truth, the thought they are not vocalizing is "she thinks she's better than us." (Which is not at all what she thinks. She thinks the labor should be reapportioned in a non sexist way.)
This is really interesting to me. On occasion I have been the woman sitting on the couch. Unfortunately, I don't actually enjoy it; I do it more as a "fuck you" to gender role expectations but I have a voice in my head that tells me I am being a lazy self-important bitch. Then there is the pre-party phone calls with regards to bringing food and again, I try do what is expected of me (could you possibly make your fabulous sweet rolls?) and sometimes I counter with "I'll bring some grapes and a package of crackers." I mean, damn, the sweet rolls take 6 hours and are a major commitment. I don't get off scott free, I usually second guess myself on the day and feel guilty for showing up with food that took no effort even though all of the males show up with either a bottle of wine or bupkis.
I think the voice in my head is my mother. I think she trained me in emotional labor and woman's work because she is the absolute Queen Bee (and has a vast network of close friends and family to prove it.) The thing is I have realized in the last 10 years that all those times I got slapped for having a bad attitude was her way of trying to train me to "keep sweet." No she wasn't a religious fundamentalist, but she had an expectation of female behavior that women were always pleasant, kind, considerate, and emotionally supportive of everyone around them. Emotional labor done by a workhorse.
It has taken me years to realize that I don't have to be that person. I have empathy and can understand people's needs but that doesn't mean that I, personally, have to be the packhorse for everyone and carry it all.
When I married my second husband who is 11 years younger than I, I told him straight up: "I am not your mother." My first marriage went to hell in large part because my ex wanted a mother/secretary/mistress/friend while he got to be just the guy who brings the paycheck home. (Marriage as legal prostitution.) My second marriage is a lot more successful because I am a lot happier. (Pro-tip: Marry a guy who has been living in his own house for 10 years without help. He will know how to do the laundry and vacuum the floors.) I'm not his damn secretary and if he buys a gift for his father for Father's Day-- he knows where we keep the wrapping paper.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:15 PM on July 20, 2015 [32 favorites]
I've been following this thread, listening and learning a great deal. About privilege, and many of my own unconscious assumptions. Thank you so much for sharing, everyone.
posted by zarq at 4:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by zarq at 4:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
My father acting out his anger in so many ways, just short of physical abuse, but with terrifying outbursts, breaking things, and hurtful words, and never apologizing. I mean, never.
Oh god, yes, the rages, the truly operatic rages. One little shard of glass from the past is that I, being the daughter, was required to serve as audience for these performances, which were never actually about me--he lacked the, whatever, the guts, I guess, to be direct with his anger--but were about things going on at work, or bills, or politics. He needed me to listen, to affirm him, and every so often to answer one of his rhetorical questions, delivered at full bellow: "So, if YOU were in this meeting, and I said [whatever], what would YOU think I meant??" With, of course, the imperative that I had to answer correctly, so he could storm on about how even I, a twelve-year-old GIRL, was smarter than whatever co-worker he was pissed at.
posted by Kat Allison at 4:37 PM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
Oh god, yes, the rages, the truly operatic rages. One little shard of glass from the past is that I, being the daughter, was required to serve as audience for these performances, which were never actually about me--he lacked the, whatever, the guts, I guess, to be direct with his anger--but were about things going on at work, or bills, or politics. He needed me to listen, to affirm him, and every so often to answer one of his rhetorical questions, delivered at full bellow: "So, if YOU were in this meeting, and I said [whatever], what would YOU think I meant??" With, of course, the imperative that I had to answer correctly, so he could storm on about how even I, a twelve-year-old GIRL, was smarter than whatever co-worker he was pissed at.
posted by Kat Allison at 4:37 PM on July 20, 2015 [18 favorites]
(I was never sure what would happen if I was ever wrong. That was too frightening to think about.)
posted by Kat Allison at 4:40 PM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Kat Allison at 4:40 PM on July 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Pet euthanasia is a team thing. I can't imagine it otherwise. We've had to do it twice and I've been the more composed both times, but that's not saying a lot. Still, unless some major logistics prevents it, we are the 'parents' and handle it together.
Now, who spoon-fed the cat special baby food nicely warmed in the microwave for weeks after surgery and made sure all meds happened on time? Another story. Again, it's that mysterious thing - it's not lack of will or skill, it's that I'm thinking about it all the time, and often the only one doing so.
posted by Miko at 4:45 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Now, who spoon-fed the cat special baby food nicely warmed in the microwave for weeks after surgery and made sure all meds happened on time? Another story. Again, it's that mysterious thing - it's not lack of will or skill, it's that I'm thinking about it all the time, and often the only one doing so.
posted by Miko at 4:45 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think the voice in my head is my mother. I think she trained me in emotional labor and woman's work.... The thing is I have realized in the last 10 years that all those times I got slapped for having a bad attitude was her way of trying to train me to "keep sweet."
Heh.
Thanksgiving. I was 10 or 11. We spent holidays with the family of a man my dad worked with. He and his wife were 10 years older than my parents and kind of took my parents under their wing when my dad started his job right out of college. They, and their kids, were always close family friends. An ersatz extended family, basically, whom we really only saw on holidays. There was only one kid in that extended family -- a boy who was a year older than me. I was always a tomboy, and he and I were good buddies and had a lot of fun together.
So, this Thanksgiving when I was 10 or 11, when dinner was over, all of the men excused themselves from the table to go outside and play horseshoes. My boy-buddy naturally went with his dad and uncles. I naturally went with my boy-buddy, because he was going outside to play and it sounded like a lot of fun, and why *wouldn't* I tag along?
Fast forward an hour, the men still playing horseshoes and all of the women sitting on the porch, relaxing after cleaning up the dining room and kitchen, putting the leftovers away, uncovering the pies, and setting the Cool Whip™ out to thaw.
My mom called me over from the horseshoe pit. She held me by the arms and put her face right in front of mine, sternly. She said, at a level that showed she wanted the other women to hear her, "Don't you know that when the men go outside after dinner, the women stay and clean up the kitchen? Did no one ever tell you that?"
Yeah. So.
First off, who would have told me that, other than my mother? Secondly, she was doing this so she could save face, because it felt to her like the other women -- all daughterless -- surely thought that she was raising a wildling who didn't know her roles and responsibilities. That day was the day that it was no longer acceptable for me to be a tomboy, I guess, and not helping with the dishes is what put that into motion.
I was always a good kid, and I always wanted to do the right thing, and her scolding me like that in front of these surrogate aunts made me cry. I had *no idea* that I had done something wrong, but I sure knew it now, and it devastated me.
And yet I still do help clean up the kitchen, or at least offer to, when I'm at other people's houses. It's not something I intentionally do in order to be the right kind of woman, it's just something that seems like a thing you ought to do when you're a guest in someone's home. The impetus for my doing that, though, isn't the desire to be a good guest. It's hearing my mother's voice in my head and not wanting to appear to do the wrong thing -- or, rather, not wanting to appear do not do the right thing.
Our mothers and the ways they unknowingly (or knowingly) educate us, eh?
posted by mudpuppie at 4:59 PM on July 20, 2015 [63 favorites]
Heh.
Thanksgiving. I was 10 or 11. We spent holidays with the family of a man my dad worked with. He and his wife were 10 years older than my parents and kind of took my parents under their wing when my dad started his job right out of college. They, and their kids, were always close family friends. An ersatz extended family, basically, whom we really only saw on holidays. There was only one kid in that extended family -- a boy who was a year older than me. I was always a tomboy, and he and I were good buddies and had a lot of fun together.
So, this Thanksgiving when I was 10 or 11, when dinner was over, all of the men excused themselves from the table to go outside and play horseshoes. My boy-buddy naturally went with his dad and uncles. I naturally went with my boy-buddy, because he was going outside to play and it sounded like a lot of fun, and why *wouldn't* I tag along?
Fast forward an hour, the men still playing horseshoes and all of the women sitting on the porch, relaxing after cleaning up the dining room and kitchen, putting the leftovers away, uncovering the pies, and setting the Cool Whip™ out to thaw.
My mom called me over from the horseshoe pit. She held me by the arms and put her face right in front of mine, sternly. She said, at a level that showed she wanted the other women to hear her, "Don't you know that when the men go outside after dinner, the women stay and clean up the kitchen? Did no one ever tell you that?"
Yeah. So.
First off, who would have told me that, other than my mother? Secondly, she was doing this so she could save face, because it felt to her like the other women -- all daughterless -- surely thought that she was raising a wildling who didn't know her roles and responsibilities. That day was the day that it was no longer acceptable for me to be a tomboy, I guess, and not helping with the dishes is what put that into motion.
I was always a good kid, and I always wanted to do the right thing, and her scolding me like that in front of these surrogate aunts made me cry. I had *no idea* that I had done something wrong, but I sure knew it now, and it devastated me.
And yet I still do help clean up the kitchen, or at least offer to, when I'm at other people's houses. It's not something I intentionally do in order to be the right kind of woman, it's just something that seems like a thing you ought to do when you're a guest in someone's home. The impetus for my doing that, though, isn't the desire to be a good guest. It's hearing my mother's voice in my head and not wanting to appear to do the wrong thing -- or, rather, not wanting to appear do not do the right thing.
Our mothers and the ways they unknowingly (or knowingly) educate us, eh?
posted by mudpuppie at 4:59 PM on July 20, 2015 [63 favorites]
We haven't had to deal with dead pets. But when I ended up in hospital my husband stayed home with out daughter, continued bed-sharing with her, feeding her expressed milk heated up next to the bed, soothing her, then getting up in the morning to take her into the hospital then going on to work (my brother would stay the day in hospital with me). She was two months old at the time. There was no discussion about it, no dilemmas, that was just obviously what would happen - someone would come for during the day to help me and at night he would have sole parenting duties.
Yet, we have friends who send their children to other people's houses rather than have dad be sole carer overnight. In fact I don't know of a single other dad in our friendship group or family who has willingly looked after his own young children overnight, by himself. Some have, because they couldn't afford to send their kid elsewhere, or it was too far to grandma's house for the school run, but yeah. That's the expectation we are surrounded by and what passes for normal. And that's what affects the perception of labour too - he gets so many props and so much praise for how he is, that any expectation of mine to be better is immediately framed as 'excessive'. Not by him, or by me, but that's the external pressure on our relationship and due to his total and complete enmeshment with his family, it ends up having far more sway than is healthy.
I think the 'emotional labour at the start' thing is about expectations. My husband, mentioned above, is also this guy. He is so incredibly, phenomenally, good at the emotional work of loving a rape survivor, someone with PTSD, that when he fucks up it is brutal. He has, in so many ways, gotten better. So when things like that happen, it hurts all that much more. Every time I'm furious about these things, I also remember the cup of tea he brought me when he picked me up from my last scan since he knew I'd had to fast. That he sat with our daughter while she laboriously wrote thank you notes yesterday. That he shames the other men for not making dinner, for not cleaning up, for not reaching out and trying. That he changes when I say "please do X/please stop doing Y". That we all have our own fuck ups - I am the goddamn ice queen sometimes, frozen solid to the core - and that the work of a relationship is getting through them.
It's just that sometimes the work seems like me doing all the emotional labour of forgiving, while everyone else just waits (with varying levels of impatience) for me to get over myself. Not that they're working on their own shit. Why should they, it's easier to wait for me to fix myself. Then demand I verbalise each and every single aspect so they don't have to learn, they can be taught and spoon fed basic decency.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:05 PM on July 20, 2015 [21 favorites]
Yet, we have friends who send their children to other people's houses rather than have dad be sole carer overnight. In fact I don't know of a single other dad in our friendship group or family who has willingly looked after his own young children overnight, by himself. Some have, because they couldn't afford to send their kid elsewhere, or it was too far to grandma's house for the school run, but yeah. That's the expectation we are surrounded by and what passes for normal. And that's what affects the perception of labour too - he gets so many props and so much praise for how he is, that any expectation of mine to be better is immediately framed as 'excessive'. Not by him, or by me, but that's the external pressure on our relationship and due to his total and complete enmeshment with his family, it ends up having far more sway than is healthy.
I think the 'emotional labour at the start' thing is about expectations. My husband, mentioned above, is also this guy. He is so incredibly, phenomenally, good at the emotional work of loving a rape survivor, someone with PTSD, that when he fucks up it is brutal. He has, in so many ways, gotten better. So when things like that happen, it hurts all that much more. Every time I'm furious about these things, I also remember the cup of tea he brought me when he picked me up from my last scan since he knew I'd had to fast. That he sat with our daughter while she laboriously wrote thank you notes yesterday. That he shames the other men for not making dinner, for not cleaning up, for not reaching out and trying. That he changes when I say "please do X/please stop doing Y". That we all have our own fuck ups - I am the goddamn ice queen sometimes, frozen solid to the core - and that the work of a relationship is getting through them.
It's just that sometimes the work seems like me doing all the emotional labour of forgiving, while everyone else just waits (with varying levels of impatience) for me to get over myself. Not that they're working on their own shit. Why should they, it's easier to wait for me to fix myself. Then demand I verbalise each and every single aspect so they don't have to learn, they can be taught and spoon fed basic decency.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:05 PM on July 20, 2015 [21 favorites]
My single mom began hosting the family Christmas after my grandma passed away. I think she hates a lot of it: cleaning, getting out all the good china, cooking all the "tradition" foods. She gets super stressed out every year and even the day of, because the day of everyone wants to crowd in the kitchen and have Family Social Hour while she's trying to cook. Ever since I moved away from home, I came back for Christmas and my default job was to be the "extra hand" of all that labor. And I did it lovingly, not wanting her to be so stressed out.
But, now I'm married and now it's extra work for mom to have 2 extra people staying at the house, plus her usual venting and banging pots and pans around and yelling is.... harder to make your spouse see, too, even if they are a good sport about it.
I don't get it: why doesn't Mom relax her cleaning standards, or cook a simpler meal, or just plain say she isn't hosting Christmas this year. But I do get it: so much of her identity is based on being the good daughter, sister, mother, etc that she feels she has to. And so I've always felt that I "have to" be the helper and take some of that away from her. Except, it sucks and it's stressful for me, too, so then I have to choose between being the dutiful labor-taker too, or leaving her to do it all herself. It sucks.
This is the first year I'm really considering not staying with my mom when we visit, and I am clearly struggling with feeling like I'm abandoning my duty to help out. But I also feel like I owe it to myself, and my spouse, and our little family, to have a nice holiday that's not just about me running around being the second cook and cleaner. I feel selfish. I don't know what else to do besides not come for Christmas at all, which I don't want to do.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:06 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
But, now I'm married and now it's extra work for mom to have 2 extra people staying at the house, plus her usual venting and banging pots and pans around and yelling is.... harder to make your spouse see, too, even if they are a good sport about it.
I don't get it: why doesn't Mom relax her cleaning standards, or cook a simpler meal, or just plain say she isn't hosting Christmas this year. But I do get it: so much of her identity is based on being the good daughter, sister, mother, etc that she feels she has to. And so I've always felt that I "have to" be the helper and take some of that away from her. Except, it sucks and it's stressful for me, too, so then I have to choose between being the dutiful labor-taker too, or leaving her to do it all herself. It sucks.
This is the first year I'm really considering not staying with my mom when we visit, and I am clearly struggling with feeling like I'm abandoning my duty to help out. But I also feel like I owe it to myself, and my spouse, and our little family, to have a nice holiday that's not just about me running around being the second cook and cleaner. I feel selfish. I don't know what else to do besides not come for Christmas at all, which I don't want to do.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:06 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, we had several "I know you think I want to move and you need to stay, but actually I NEED to move and you need to stay" conversations, including some "here's what you can do to make this easier on me in the meantime" agreements that were never honored (one of those was the planned move to Baltimore I mention in the piece, but he reneged on that one).
I went through something related to this with my ex, except I ended up not going to do the thing I should have done, and then he was all "well, it turned out really great that I didn't bother to inconvenience myself for your life goals and it's better for you too that you had to give up your dreams since I got to keep mine!" He had no idea what a jerk move that was, even though my mother had told him when he and I got married that he really needed to live up to his promise to follow me onward for grad school.
Everybody owns a share of their own divorce, but wow, sometimes men have no clue how they sound.
posted by immlass at 5:17 PM on July 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
I went through something related to this with my ex, except I ended up not going to do the thing I should have done, and then he was all "well, it turned out really great that I didn't bother to inconvenience myself for your life goals and it's better for you too that you had to give up your dreams since I got to keep mine!" He had no idea what a jerk move that was, even though my mother had told him when he and I got married that he really needed to live up to his promise to follow me onward for grad school.
Everybody owns a share of their own divorce, but wow, sometimes men have no clue how they sound.
posted by immlass at 5:17 PM on July 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
Hah. Last Christmas someone asked my husband, in all angry seriousness "why is it important to have christmas with just GA and WeeGA?" because he'd dared to say he didn't want to repeat the 8 days stuck in the middle of nowhere with his entire family every year or even second year, and would like the occasional Christmas where it's just the three of us. The idea that his family that he made was important was enough to provoke them into anger. Not more important, just important enough to devote some energy to.
And he wonders why I opted out of dealing with it. Why I think it's unhealthy. I mean, sure, they apologised the next day but that doesn't erase what they did and also they didn't change their mind, they just realised that my husband wasn't budging and that the snapping outburst didn't change anything. So, true to history, it's now the long range manipulation and 'I planned this why aren't you acquiescing I did all this woooooooooooork and whyyyyyyyyyyy won't you doing what I tell you?'. He had always said yes before, it was only when he finally said 'nah' that he copped it.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:22 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
And he wonders why I opted out of dealing with it. Why I think it's unhealthy. I mean, sure, they apologised the next day but that doesn't erase what they did and also they didn't change their mind, they just realised that my husband wasn't budging and that the snapping outburst didn't change anything. So, true to history, it's now the long range manipulation and 'I planned this why aren't you acquiescing I did all this woooooooooooork and whyyyyyyyyyyy won't you doing what I tell you?'. He had always said yes before, it was only when he finally said 'nah' that he copped it.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:22 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Once she collected herself, MIL said "Well, she's the only one of you girls with enough backbone to not let my son be lazy."
She sounds awesome. Reminds me of a passage in one of Melanie Rawn's books, about a matriarchal culture. This old lady is asking her supposed granddaughter-ish person that she has a choice--she can marry a man who comes into a room and sits down when she says so, or she can marry a man who comes into a room and sits down without her having to say so. Trick question; the man she really wants to marry is one with his own mind and who neither needs to be told what to do nor displays unquestioning obedience. (Heavily paraphrased, can't be arsed to type out the actual bit.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:25 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
She sounds awesome. Reminds me of a passage in one of Melanie Rawn's books, about a matriarchal culture. This old lady is asking her supposed granddaughter-ish person that she has a choice--she can marry a man who comes into a room and sits down when she says so, or she can marry a man who comes into a room and sits down without her having to say so. Trick question; the man she really wants to marry is one with his own mind and who neither needs to be told what to do nor displays unquestioning obedience. (Heavily paraphrased, can't be arsed to type out the actual bit.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:25 PM on July 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Oh, man, poor mudpuppie, you should have gotten a kid dispensation! Ach, that kills me.
Secret Life of Gravy, me too, I've been the woman on the couch and it's terribly uncomfortable. I feel like an imposter everywhere, though, no matter what I do. If I try to fit into traditional sex roles it's always a farce. At some signal I always miss everyone leaps up at the same moment and they all fall into a perfect prechoreographed routine and I'm left standing around holding, like, a single fork. Poking it at whoever's washing. "Here. Here's a fork I found. It's no problem for me, handing you this fork, here. Here you go. De nada. Could I maybe dry the fork for you once you're done with the washing part? Oh, I see, Karen's on dishtowel duty? Okay, no worries, plenty to do, right, ha ha!" Meanwhile all around me every female relative has some absorbing and necessary task and is killing it, comfortably and competently without a second thought and I can't see anything to do so I'm careening around, "can I help with that, do you need anything? Wait I know maybe there is another fork out there. No, no fork out here, dang how do they always get every fork every time? That fork I brought in was my own fork. I hid it from them under my napkin when they snatched my plate and cup from my feebly gesticulating fingers. I should never have relinquished my fork, it was all I had. Maybe I can hide in the bathroom or something. No way am I going out there with the uncles and force us all to participate in uncomfortable interminable stilted mixed-gender pseudoconversation like LAST year."
I think it's because my mom sucked at housework and didn't make me the houseworker child just because I was the girl--my brother and I both were supposed to take a hand. Except neither of us did and to this day left to our own devices we all live like enormous rodents except with less executive function. I live by myself, but I flounder around and make enough mess that I could be a family of twelve, so I pay a woman to save me from myself every two weeks. It's not her main thing--she's a sculptor--but she says she likes it, and she actually seems to. People clamor for her. I had to wait a year or something for some other client to die or move away. Her name is legend in our town. I'm not saying I would have done anything to speed the former client on their way because I didn't know then what I was missing. Now, though? Well. I still might not do anything illegal, but nobody better try to pull an Anatole-heist on me. She's the best thing in my life. So she says she enjoys it, but because that seems impossible to me and what seems more likely is that she hates it, I pay her as richly as possible. The emotional labor she does is the kind I suck at the most and resent enormously having to do but the kind I value the most after, like, talking to me and being my friend when I'm sadconfused, which is the bestbest kind. Next to that, though, cleaning is the most wonderful miraculous supportive emotional work to have done for one. Anyone who does it for another human person should be paid and paid and paid in delicious dollars, as many hundreds or thousands of them as possible, by the lucky recipient. Also, always tip hotel housekeeping way way way more than you think you should. I had to learn this from Judge John Hodgman, though it should have been obvious.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:31 PM on July 20, 2015 [73 favorites]
Secret Life of Gravy, me too, I've been the woman on the couch and it's terribly uncomfortable. I feel like an imposter everywhere, though, no matter what I do. If I try to fit into traditional sex roles it's always a farce. At some signal I always miss everyone leaps up at the same moment and they all fall into a perfect prechoreographed routine and I'm left standing around holding, like, a single fork. Poking it at whoever's washing. "Here. Here's a fork I found. It's no problem for me, handing you this fork, here. Here you go. De nada. Could I maybe dry the fork for you once you're done with the washing part? Oh, I see, Karen's on dishtowel duty? Okay, no worries, plenty to do, right, ha ha!" Meanwhile all around me every female relative has some absorbing and necessary task and is killing it, comfortably and competently without a second thought and I can't see anything to do so I'm careening around, "can I help with that, do you need anything? Wait I know maybe there is another fork out there. No, no fork out here, dang how do they always get every fork every time? That fork I brought in was my own fork. I hid it from them under my napkin when they snatched my plate and cup from my feebly gesticulating fingers. I should never have relinquished my fork, it was all I had. Maybe I can hide in the bathroom or something. No way am I going out there with the uncles and force us all to participate in uncomfortable interminable stilted mixed-gender pseudoconversation like LAST year."
I think it's because my mom sucked at housework and didn't make me the houseworker child just because I was the girl--my brother and I both were supposed to take a hand. Except neither of us did and to this day left to our own devices we all live like enormous rodents except with less executive function. I live by myself, but I flounder around and make enough mess that I could be a family of twelve, so I pay a woman to save me from myself every two weeks. It's not her main thing--she's a sculptor--but she says she likes it, and she actually seems to. People clamor for her. I had to wait a year or something for some other client to die or move away. Her name is legend in our town. I'm not saying I would have done anything to speed the former client on their way because I didn't know then what I was missing. Now, though? Well. I still might not do anything illegal, but nobody better try to pull an Anatole-heist on me. She's the best thing in my life. So she says she enjoys it, but because that seems impossible to me and what seems more likely is that she hates it, I pay her as richly as possible. The emotional labor she does is the kind I suck at the most and resent enormously having to do but the kind I value the most after, like, talking to me and being my friend when I'm sadconfused, which is the bestbest kind. Next to that, though, cleaning is the most wonderful miraculous supportive emotional work to have done for one. Anyone who does it for another human person should be paid and paid and paid in delicious dollars, as many hundreds or thousands of them as possible, by the lucky recipient. Also, always tip hotel housekeeping way way way more than you think you should. I had to learn this from Judge John Hodgman, though it should have been obvious.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:31 PM on July 20, 2015 [73 favorites]
but nobody better try to pull an Anatole-heist on me.
Ahhh, fellow P G Wodehouse fan I salute you! and I laugh heartily at your fork story. Next time ask "Anything I can do? No? OK I'll just sit/stand here and listen to the gossip. You guys are so much fun to be with and I love all of you."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
Ahhh, fellow P G Wodehouse fan I salute you! and I laugh heartily at your fork story. Next time ask "Anything I can do? No? OK I'll just sit/stand here and listen to the gossip. You guys are so much fun to be with and I love all of you."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
phearlez, you're absolutely right and I didn't mean to be ungracious!
Not at all; I just wanted to make sure you didn't fail to take your due.
posted by phearlez at 6:35 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not at all; I just wanted to make sure you didn't fail to take your due.
posted by phearlez at 6:35 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
me too, I've been the woman on the couch and it's terribly uncomfortable. I feel like an imposter everywhere, though, no matter what I do.
oh god I'm suddenly flooded with memories of every wretched holiday meal at my great-uncle's place, when his mean scary wife and all but the very oldest and youngest female dinner attendees would swoop up at some unseen signal and practically wrestle your plate away from you, kicking off the aggressive dinner shutdown process, and all the men would meander into the living room to watch a sport and talk about what kind of horsepower their mutual fund has, and I would get confused by the sudden strict gender bifurcation of the group* and frankly terrified by the Stepfordian kitchen tornado betwixt meal-end and pie-begin, so I would always end up hiding in the den reading old copies of Reader's Digest and feeling an incredibly deep sense of shame for not understanding the dynamic well enough to grok my role in it as a girl-child.
*my adult male cousins often cooked but never cleaned up, which always struck me as weird, but I later put two and two together and realized they only do stunt-cooking -- grilling, deep-frying, poorly planned turduckens, anything involving an open flame, etc.
posted by palomar at 6:35 PM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
oh god I'm suddenly flooded with memories of every wretched holiday meal at my great-uncle's place, when his mean scary wife and all but the very oldest and youngest female dinner attendees would swoop up at some unseen signal and practically wrestle your plate away from you, kicking off the aggressive dinner shutdown process, and all the men would meander into the living room to watch a sport and talk about what kind of horsepower their mutual fund has, and I would get confused by the sudden strict gender bifurcation of the group* and frankly terrified by the Stepfordian kitchen tornado betwixt meal-end and pie-begin, so I would always end up hiding in the den reading old copies of Reader's Digest and feeling an incredibly deep sense of shame for not understanding the dynamic well enough to grok my role in it as a girl-child.
*my adult male cousins often cooked but never cleaned up, which always struck me as weird, but I later put two and two together and realized they only do stunt-cooking -- grilling, deep-frying, poorly planned turduckens, anything involving an open flame, etc.
posted by palomar at 6:35 PM on July 20, 2015 [47 favorites]
It is less draining for me personally to just carry on in a relationship doing all the emotional labor while the guy remains happy and clueless about my needs, than it is to try to soothe the hurt feelings and resentment that he gets after I attempt to suggest that he maybe could do more.
Or after you just, like, bring up the phrase emotional labor, without even making the suggestion, and he wrinkles his nose. One good thing about my husband being all Guess culture, though, is that since I mentioned I was reading a story and MetaFilter thread about this yesterday, my husband did go to the store today unasked, so...
Whoa, does anybody remember the song "Excuse Me Mr." from No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom? I first got that album when I was really young (5th-6th grade?), so I could never fully wrap my mind around the lyrics. Something about a dude ignoring her...won't give her the time of day. But THIS. Unreciprocated emotional labor is what that song is really about.
"Spiderwebs," too: "Now it's all your fault I've gotta screen my phone calls; no matter who calls I've gotta screen my phone calls." Gwen Stefani knew what was up in the '90s.
Some students will plunge ahead and ask questions about due dates, requirements, readings and so on that are explicitly addressed in the syllabus. These emails are truly wastes of time. The students waste their time writing up an email then waiting for and reading the response, when they could have just clicked on the course site and been done. The instructor's time is wasted by having to read and craft a response to that email, even if the response is just 'Please check the syllabus for this information.' And of course, such a brief response will be read as rude by some students, and there are ramifications in student evaluations for female-presenting instructors who are seen as cold, terse, or rude that are not present for male-presenting instructors. Not choosing to reply is not an option at all, because that only ensures that I receive follow-up emails until class.
If you change a few nouns you could be talking about project schedules and project managers, or really women in any profession. There's so much expectation that women in professional roles do this stuff without question. I think my relationship with a male manager in a past job started to go downhill when I realized that he was never going to step up and support our team—well, at all, but also by doing anything so bold as asking for an unreasonable production schedule to be changed, and that he was going to continue to throw us under the bus for failing to meet unreasonable expectations, and that we would continue having to have meetings with him after every production cycle about what we were doing wrong to keep it from working, and that he was never going to push back against the older woman on our team who outright emotionally abused the younger women... He completely abdicated any responsibility for any part of the emotional labor of the team, and much of the basic managerial burden that should've been on him as well to shield his team. And as I lost hope, I stopped doing what I now realize was all the emotional and domestic labor and started responding to repeated emails like this that showed he wasn't paying attention to the barest of details by copying and pasting responses from previous emails, then getting more barebones and just referencing the earlier email in question. It's exactly what guys suggest in Ask MetaFilter threads about reducing overhead in one's job, but when a woman does it to a male manager, especially one she was previously buddy-buddy with, he often reacts like he's been rejected at prom. Then you're "not a team player" anymore, and pretty soon you're not invited to the "huddles" or "scrums" because clearly you're too busy, so we won't bother you with stuff like being in meetings with the rest of your team. Aaanyway.
Don't expect your partner to be the keeper of all knowable facts, basically. Place some responsibility on yourself to know them as well. Keep a notebook, if you need to.
This basically echoes something I recently mentioned at work as well. I think too often women in general become the keepers of knowledge that really should be shared knowledge in a relationship, and women professionals often end up doing this as well. "Institutional knowledge" or "relationship knowledge" should be kept alive by more than just one person in a relationship or organization.
I remember that his mother wrote me an impassioned email - entreating me to help him come to his senses.
I just remembered what it was that my father-in-law asked me to do, multiple times: Fix my husband and make him magically become healthy. It isn’t really a surprise that my father-in-law would take the anachronistic view that women are the keepers of men and responsible for their health, but reading the stories in this thread about other people's parents and in-laws makes that make perfect sense.
Also, every Crone Island reference in this thread just makes me gleeful.
posted by limeonaire at 6:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
Or after you just, like, bring up the phrase emotional labor, without even making the suggestion, and he wrinkles his nose. One good thing about my husband being all Guess culture, though, is that since I mentioned I was reading a story and MetaFilter thread about this yesterday, my husband did go to the store today unasked, so...
Whoa, does anybody remember the song "Excuse Me Mr." from No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom? I first got that album when I was really young (5th-6th grade?), so I could never fully wrap my mind around the lyrics. Something about a dude ignoring her...won't give her the time of day. But THIS. Unreciprocated emotional labor is what that song is really about.
"Spiderwebs," too: "Now it's all your fault I've gotta screen my phone calls; no matter who calls I've gotta screen my phone calls." Gwen Stefani knew what was up in the '90s.
Some students will plunge ahead and ask questions about due dates, requirements, readings and so on that are explicitly addressed in the syllabus. These emails are truly wastes of time. The students waste their time writing up an email then waiting for and reading the response, when they could have just clicked on the course site and been done. The instructor's time is wasted by having to read and craft a response to that email, even if the response is just 'Please check the syllabus for this information.' And of course, such a brief response will be read as rude by some students, and there are ramifications in student evaluations for female-presenting instructors who are seen as cold, terse, or rude that are not present for male-presenting instructors. Not choosing to reply is not an option at all, because that only ensures that I receive follow-up emails until class.
If you change a few nouns you could be talking about project schedules and project managers, or really women in any profession. There's so much expectation that women in professional roles do this stuff without question. I think my relationship with a male manager in a past job started to go downhill when I realized that he was never going to step up and support our team—well, at all, but also by doing anything so bold as asking for an unreasonable production schedule to be changed, and that he was going to continue to throw us under the bus for failing to meet unreasonable expectations, and that we would continue having to have meetings with him after every production cycle about what we were doing wrong to keep it from working, and that he was never going to push back against the older woman on our team who outright emotionally abused the younger women... He completely abdicated any responsibility for any part of the emotional labor of the team, and much of the basic managerial burden that should've been on him as well to shield his team. And as I lost hope, I stopped doing what I now realize was all the emotional and domestic labor and started responding to repeated emails like this that showed he wasn't paying attention to the barest of details by copying and pasting responses from previous emails, then getting more barebones and just referencing the earlier email in question. It's exactly what guys suggest in Ask MetaFilter threads about reducing overhead in one's job, but when a woman does it to a male manager, especially one she was previously buddy-buddy with, he often reacts like he's been rejected at prom. Then you're "not a team player" anymore, and pretty soon you're not invited to the "huddles" or "scrums" because clearly you're too busy, so we won't bother you with stuff like being in meetings with the rest of your team. Aaanyway.
Don't expect your partner to be the keeper of all knowable facts, basically. Place some responsibility on yourself to know them as well. Keep a notebook, if you need to.
This basically echoes something I recently mentioned at work as well. I think too often women in general become the keepers of knowledge that really should be shared knowledge in a relationship, and women professionals often end up doing this as well. "Institutional knowledge" or "relationship knowledge" should be kept alive by more than just one person in a relationship or organization.
I remember that his mother wrote me an impassioned email - entreating me to help him come to his senses.
I just remembered what it was that my father-in-law asked me to do, multiple times: Fix my husband and make him magically become healthy. It isn’t really a surprise that my father-in-law would take the anachronistic view that women are the keepers of men and responsible for their health, but reading the stories in this thread about other people's parents and in-laws makes that make perfect sense.
Also, every Crone Island reference in this thread just makes me gleeful.
posted by limeonaire at 6:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [17 favorites]
Just so you know, Crone Island also has avocados that are always ripe exactly when you want them!
This thread has been fascinating, and so much resonates. In particular, for me: first, the way that my refusal to perform some of the emotional labor in my family creates more work for my mother, who absolutely carries the entire emotional labor burden within her marriage and often takes it upon herself for us kids: she recently spent 6 months finagling a way that I'd spend 6 hours with a sibling I'm not close to. (I'll call him on his birthday and get him holiday presents, but we don't get along and almost never socialize beyond obligatory holiday duties). It's hard: on the one hand, I see and appreciate the work my mother is doing; on the other hand, I really, really wish she felt like she could opt out and not then spend the rest of her life worrying that two of her adult children are cool with keeping their distance.
More significantly, I was subjected to the absolutely ridiculous daily double of emotional labor as (un)valued at home and at work one time when Mom had an accident and needed assistance. I lived 3,000 miles away at the time, but as NONE OF THE MENFOLK IN THE FAMILY (husband, son who lived in the same city*, and son who was at most two hours away) could be bothered to adapt their schedules to help out, I was summoned home to help for a month because a)I'm the girl; and b)I'm in education, so of course I "have the summers off". And somehow, in spit of the rage blackout, I still ended up having to fly out, pretend like I didn't have, you know, a life of my own, a research agenda, and stuff to do on the other side of the country, so that none of the men had to adapt their work schedules a SINGLE IOTA beyond picking me up from the airport. To this day, not a single one of the men understands why I'm bitter about this or think that there was anything else they should have done.
*this may be a really huge example as to why I'm not close to one sibling!
posted by TwoStride at 6:52 PM on July 20, 2015 [38 favorites]
This thread has been fascinating, and so much resonates. In particular, for me: first, the way that my refusal to perform some of the emotional labor in my family creates more work for my mother, who absolutely carries the entire emotional labor burden within her marriage and often takes it upon herself for us kids: she recently spent 6 months finagling a way that I'd spend 6 hours with a sibling I'm not close to. (I'll call him on his birthday and get him holiday presents, but we don't get along and almost never socialize beyond obligatory holiday duties). It's hard: on the one hand, I see and appreciate the work my mother is doing; on the other hand, I really, really wish she felt like she could opt out and not then spend the rest of her life worrying that two of her adult children are cool with keeping their distance.
More significantly, I was subjected to the absolutely ridiculous daily double of emotional labor as (un)valued at home and at work one time when Mom had an accident and needed assistance. I lived 3,000 miles away at the time, but as NONE OF THE MENFOLK IN THE FAMILY (husband, son who lived in the same city*, and son who was at most two hours away) could be bothered to adapt their schedules to help out, I was summoned home to help for a month because a)I'm the girl; and b)I'm in education, so of course I "have the summers off". And somehow, in spit of the rage blackout, I still ended up having to fly out, pretend like I didn't have, you know, a life of my own, a research agenda, and stuff to do on the other side of the country, so that none of the men had to adapt their work schedules a SINGLE IOTA beyond picking me up from the airport. To this day, not a single one of the men understands why I'm bitter about this or think that there was anything else they should have done.
*this may be a really huge example as to why I'm not close to one sibling!
posted by TwoStride at 6:52 PM on July 20, 2015 [38 favorites]
I think too often women in general become the keepers of knowledge that really should be shared knowledge in a relationship, and women professionals often end up doing this as well. "Institutional knowledge" or "relationship knowledge" should be kept alive by more than just one person in a relationship or organization.
This is really interesting to me. I (obviously) have a pretty viscerally negative reaction to being the person who has to know The Things in my home life. Contrarily, through an odd turn of events, I have recently found myself acknowledged as the person at work with the most comprehensive institutional memory.
Thing is, at work, being the person with the knowledge gives me a power I wouldn't otherwise have. I like that, and I am working it to the extent that I can. At home, being the person with the knowledge, either presumed or actual, gives me a responsibility I don't want. The burden is then put on me to reject that responsibility, explain why, and defend my explanation, ad nauseum.
I have no idea why one situation feels powerful and the other feels like an albatross. I don't think it's solely because one is compensated and the other isn't. I don't get paid more at work for being the keeper of the history, but it's a role I still value.
Maybe the compensation I get at work is respect? Whereas at home it's just expected? I really have no idea. This is something I'm going to have to think about.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:54 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
This is really interesting to me. I (obviously) have a pretty viscerally negative reaction to being the person who has to know The Things in my home life. Contrarily, through an odd turn of events, I have recently found myself acknowledged as the person at work with the most comprehensive institutional memory.
Thing is, at work, being the person with the knowledge gives me a power I wouldn't otherwise have. I like that, and I am working it to the extent that I can. At home, being the person with the knowledge, either presumed or actual, gives me a responsibility I don't want. The burden is then put on me to reject that responsibility, explain why, and defend my explanation, ad nauseum.
I have no idea why one situation feels powerful and the other feels like an albatross. I don't think it's solely because one is compensated and the other isn't. I don't get paid more at work for being the keeper of the history, but it's a role I still value.
Maybe the compensation I get at work is respect? Whereas at home it's just expected? I really have no idea. This is something I'm going to have to think about.
posted by mudpuppie at 6:54 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
I think I can explain why I think being the keeper of all the knowledge is not necessarily great at home or at work. Being the keeper of institutional knowledge at work feels powerful, in the way that being really busy can make you feel like you're thrumming with power and energy, but what it also does is put you at the beck and call of anyone who needs to know whatever thing it is that you and only you know. You feel needed, but you can end up called upon too much, or outside of regular working hours or the boundaries of your job, and it can also mean that you end up carrying around way too much information—about project status, about best practices, about where the pushpins are—in your head.
Being that person also puts you at risk of being a bottleneck when things need to happen and being blamed if things can't happen as a result of your not being present at some point to share your singular knowledge. What feels like power and job security—being the person who knows all the things—can actually completely backfire if, say, management changes and wants you to make the knowledge of all the things available to new people, or if management changes and wants to know why you haven't already made the knowledge of all the things available to other people, or why there isn't a process in place that documents all the things you know. New management will often keep the people who know where all the things are around only long enough to strip-mine them of that information, then will bequeath all the things to a shiny new person.
Anyway! This is not to take away your pride in being that person. I feel great when I know the answers to questions at work and am the go-to person for that knowledge. But I also know that documentation and knowledge-sharing are good ways to ensure that some of the things above don't happen to you, either. Plus, it makes it easier to go on a vacation without writing a long memo about the status of all the things and where you put all the things, etc.
posted by limeonaire at 7:04 PM on July 20, 2015 [26 favorites]
Being that person also puts you at risk of being a bottleneck when things need to happen and being blamed if things can't happen as a result of your not being present at some point to share your singular knowledge. What feels like power and job security—being the person who knows all the things—can actually completely backfire if, say, management changes and wants you to make the knowledge of all the things available to new people, or if management changes and wants to know why you haven't already made the knowledge of all the things available to other people, or why there isn't a process in place that documents all the things you know. New management will often keep the people who know where all the things are around only long enough to strip-mine them of that information, then will bequeath all the things to a shiny new person.
Anyway! This is not to take away your pride in being that person. I feel great when I know the answers to questions at work and am the go-to person for that knowledge. But I also know that documentation and knowledge-sharing are good ways to ensure that some of the things above don't happen to you, either. Plus, it makes it easier to go on a vacation without writing a long memo about the status of all the things and where you put all the things, etc.
posted by limeonaire at 7:04 PM on July 20, 2015 [26 favorites]
I can see EVERYTHING through this tiny little knothole in the fence of reality!
This is exactly how I feel. I've read every word and my perception of the world, of my life history, and of my marriage is changed forever. I can't stop thinking about it. I'm going to be changing my own behavior in lots of ways--doing more work when it's appropriate (and for sure I have a lot of room for improvement) and less when it's not. But just as importantly I feel like this is a unifying theory that explains a lot of the crazymaking behavior I've been trying to understand, and it is such a relief to be able to make some sense of it all. Thank you, thank, thank you to everyone.
posted by HotToddy at 7:08 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
This is exactly how I feel. I've read every word and my perception of the world, of my life history, and of my marriage is changed forever. I can't stop thinking about it. I'm going to be changing my own behavior in lots of ways--doing more work when it's appropriate (and for sure I have a lot of room for improvement) and less when it's not. But just as importantly I feel like this is a unifying theory that explains a lot of the crazymaking behavior I've been trying to understand, and it is such a relief to be able to make some sense of it all. Thank you, thank, thank you to everyone.
posted by HotToddy at 7:08 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
"I'm not your google!" is probably the sentence I snap most often in irritation at my husband, who expects me to have magical powers to know things and find things. "Well, you KIND of are," he replies in his defense. "How on earth did you function before we got married?" I demand, as these are simple human tasks. "Not very well," he admits. "Remember how you had to make me throw out my high-water pants and I only owned one pot and I boiled eggs in a Sprite can cut in half?" Touche, husband. Touche.
When I want him to pick something up for me, I give him hugely specific details -- "You need to get the red one, in the 32 oz. package, NOT the 15 oz. package ..." When he wants me to pick him something up, he says, "Can you get me a shirt?" or "Can you get my deodorant?" I think he thinks I just know these things, but in fact I have saved in the cloud a document with all his clothing sizes and things like his deodorant brand preference so that I can access it on my phone or computer when I need to buy him things. But he goes to the weirdo wine store to pick up my favorite wine so I guess I shouldn't complain about him not knowing my deodorant preference.
(Also when pressured into post-holiday clean-up at a family dinner the BEST role to take on is supervising a three-year-old gathering the dirty napkins for the laundry. It takes forever, nobody makes you do anything else because you're supervising a toddler, you have to do exactly nothing but point to the next napkin, and the three-year-old thinks you're the FUNNEST AUNT because you let them gather dirty napkins which is obviously a party occasion when you're three. If you have a laundry chute it will turn into TOTAL GIGGLING HYSTERIA.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:11 PM on July 20, 2015 [61 favorites]
When I want him to pick something up for me, I give him hugely specific details -- "You need to get the red one, in the 32 oz. package, NOT the 15 oz. package ..." When he wants me to pick him something up, he says, "Can you get me a shirt?" or "Can you get my deodorant?" I think he thinks I just know these things, but in fact I have saved in the cloud a document with all his clothing sizes and things like his deodorant brand preference so that I can access it on my phone or computer when I need to buy him things. But he goes to the weirdo wine store to pick up my favorite wine so I guess I shouldn't complain about him not knowing my deodorant preference.
(Also when pressured into post-holiday clean-up at a family dinner the BEST role to take on is supervising a three-year-old gathering the dirty napkins for the laundry. It takes forever, nobody makes you do anything else because you're supervising a toddler, you have to do exactly nothing but point to the next napkin, and the three-year-old thinks you're the FUNNEST AUNT because you let them gather dirty napkins which is obviously a party occasion when you're three. If you have a laundry chute it will turn into TOTAL GIGGLING HYSTERIA.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:11 PM on July 20, 2015 [61 favorites]
Okay, I admit I was secretly a little bit on the fence about Crone Island. Not because I don't love margaritas--I do, especially frozen, I don't care if it's supposed to be juvenile to like frozen drinks, I think they're great all slushy, especially if they have that salt rim. So I was leaning strongly pro but I felt like something was still missing. The always-ripe avocados thing might be the clincher. That has me almost convinced to go for it. Will there be some three-year-olds for napkin gathering? What about the occasional ten-year-old to send out to play horseshoes with her friends after dinner so that you can call them all back in when it's time for pie?
posted by Don Pepino at 7:27 PM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 7:27 PM on July 20, 2015 [15 favorites]
Just occurred to me that, if I hadn't fully internalized the message that i, as a girl child, was expected to be my mother's emotional helper, by age 7, my brother was born and it was made perfectly clear that this would be my role.
My sister's common refrain is, "Why do we have to do X, when the boy child (38) does not. He has never been expected to pull any emotional weight with a smothering mother and 2 dutiful older sisters. Buddy, you don't know how things have just changed. See, babelfish, you've changed 3 lives right there!
posted by Sophie1 at 8:01 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
My sister's common refrain is, "Why do we have to do X, when the boy child (38) does not. He has never been expected to pull any emotional weight with a smothering mother and 2 dutiful older sisters. Buddy, you don't know how things have just changed. See, babelfish, you've changed 3 lives right there!
posted by Sophie1 at 8:01 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Reading Limeonaire's comment above about being the keeper of all the knowledge, I had yet another lightbulb realization; the expectations of what being the knowledge keeper entails, and what you do with the information you possess, vary by gender and expectation of emotional labor too.
Being a woman who is a knowledge keeper means being expected to share your information at all times. I was briefly in this position, as a relatively long-time volunteer at a collectively run bookstore with high volunteer turnover. I fielded calls and e-mails from other people who needed help with my specific areas of expertise all the time. Guided a particularly incompetent dude who'd been volunteering for months and should have known better through store-opening procedures over the phone, on a day when I had much better things to do. Took on so much mental anguish over the store and space's well-being, so much guilt and frustration when I knew that there were particularly incompetent people working alone on shifts.
When men get themselves in information keeper roles, though, they can choose to consolidate that power and not share it with anyone. The primary book orderer for the store I described above is a dude who's been involved from the get-go in the 1970's. A while back, some friends and I noticed a distinct lack of books by and about both trans women and people with disabilities. First we gave him a list of suggested books. A few got ordered, most he rejected on grounds that they wouldn't sell well and make back enough money for the store. I expressed interest in helping out with book orders, in part to see if there was a more cost-effective way to stock those books. Sure, he said, just come in during one of my shifts and I'll show you the ropes. This dude has a pretty flexible schedule by his own admission, but only does one weekday daytime shift per week, will not set foot in the store during evenings. I have a 9-5 gig right now, I pleaded. Can we work something out on an evening or weekend day?
Radio silence. I'm not the only woman who's had this experience. I've quit volunteering at this space for a multitude of reasons since then, and god knows how many women have complained to or with me about this dude, but as far as I know men aren't exactly clamoring to say "hey, this allegedly collectively run store has books almost exclusively chosen by one dude and that's kind of a problem."
PS Earlier this year, I had the opportunity to buy one of the books that my old space chose not to continue stocking directly from the publisher. The glee I felt at saying "I've been wanting to read this for a while, and I'm buying it from you, a small press run by trans people, because I can't get it locally anymore" cannot be overstated. A Safe Girl to Love, by Casey Plett everyone. Lots of stories that are directly relevant to this emotional labor thread, so wrenching, so good.
posted by ActionPopulated at 8:16 PM on July 20, 2015 [25 favorites]
Being a woman who is a knowledge keeper means being expected to share your information at all times. I was briefly in this position, as a relatively long-time volunteer at a collectively run bookstore with high volunteer turnover. I fielded calls and e-mails from other people who needed help with my specific areas of expertise all the time. Guided a particularly incompetent dude who'd been volunteering for months and should have known better through store-opening procedures over the phone, on a day when I had much better things to do. Took on so much mental anguish over the store and space's well-being, so much guilt and frustration when I knew that there were particularly incompetent people working alone on shifts.
When men get themselves in information keeper roles, though, they can choose to consolidate that power and not share it with anyone. The primary book orderer for the store I described above is a dude who's been involved from the get-go in the 1970's. A while back, some friends and I noticed a distinct lack of books by and about both trans women and people with disabilities. First we gave him a list of suggested books. A few got ordered, most he rejected on grounds that they wouldn't sell well and make back enough money for the store. I expressed interest in helping out with book orders, in part to see if there was a more cost-effective way to stock those books. Sure, he said, just come in during one of my shifts and I'll show you the ropes. This dude has a pretty flexible schedule by his own admission, but only does one weekday daytime shift per week, will not set foot in the store during evenings. I have a 9-5 gig right now, I pleaded. Can we work something out on an evening or weekend day?
Radio silence. I'm not the only woman who's had this experience. I've quit volunteering at this space for a multitude of reasons since then, and god knows how many women have complained to or with me about this dude, but as far as I know men aren't exactly clamoring to say "hey, this allegedly collectively run store has books almost exclusively chosen by one dude and that's kind of a problem."
PS Earlier this year, I had the opportunity to buy one of the books that my old space chose not to continue stocking directly from the publisher. The glee I felt at saying "I've been wanting to read this for a while, and I'm buying it from you, a small press run by trans people, because I can't get it locally anymore" cannot be overstated. A Safe Girl to Love, by Casey Plett everyone. Lots of stories that are directly relevant to this emotional labor thread, so wrenching, so good.
posted by ActionPopulated at 8:16 PM on July 20, 2015 [25 favorites]
My mother was the emotional laborer and keeper of all the knowledge in my home growing up. She knew when it was time to buy more shampoo and what question to ask a teenager to make them open up about what was wrong at school and when the car needed to be serviced and how to contact the utility companies and what my siblings and I wanted for our birthdays and where to find the phone numbers for the people we always invited over for Christmas and all the other little things that keep a household running.
She died when my youngest sister was just 13. It was very sudden.
My father and sister very nearly starved those first couple of years because my father had never had to think about how the refrigerator comes to be filled with food that everyone likes and how that food turns into meals that can be eaten. My other sibling and I, who were both in college, used to clean out the refrigerator every time we came home on breaks and fill huge garbage bags with food that was rotten or past its expiration date because my father had purchased whatever seemed like a good idea whenever he was at the store without thinking about how to use it, and it certainly never occurred to him to go through the fridge and throw it away if it wasn't used by the time it went bad. And the recurring issue of rotting food in the fridge was, in a way, a metaphor for all of the problems he had being the unexpected head of a single parent household after 30 years of marriage to a woman who took care of everything that needed taking care of.
My father got remarried very soon after my mother died. Far too soon for my comfort. It was very unsettling for us kids. But thinking about it now, I realize that he really was never prepared to deal with any of the emotional labor or the background hard work of running a family and a household. His new wife does all that now--the meal planning and the schedule keeping and the making sure that everyone is okay. Whenever he comes to visit me, she packs his bag for him.
I really don't much like my father's new wife. I find her cloying and pretentious and self-absorbed. But I think I understand now why, despite the fact that I find her pretty irritating, I've always had this sense that she swooped in and saved him. And no matter what our interpersonal issues are, I'll always be grateful to her for that.
posted by decathecting at 8:36 PM on July 20, 2015 [35 favorites]
She died when my youngest sister was just 13. It was very sudden.
My father and sister very nearly starved those first couple of years because my father had never had to think about how the refrigerator comes to be filled with food that everyone likes and how that food turns into meals that can be eaten. My other sibling and I, who were both in college, used to clean out the refrigerator every time we came home on breaks and fill huge garbage bags with food that was rotten or past its expiration date because my father had purchased whatever seemed like a good idea whenever he was at the store without thinking about how to use it, and it certainly never occurred to him to go through the fridge and throw it away if it wasn't used by the time it went bad. And the recurring issue of rotting food in the fridge was, in a way, a metaphor for all of the problems he had being the unexpected head of a single parent household after 30 years of marriage to a woman who took care of everything that needed taking care of.
My father got remarried very soon after my mother died. Far too soon for my comfort. It was very unsettling for us kids. But thinking about it now, I realize that he really was never prepared to deal with any of the emotional labor or the background hard work of running a family and a household. His new wife does all that now--the meal planning and the schedule keeping and the making sure that everyone is okay. Whenever he comes to visit me, she packs his bag for him.
I really don't much like my father's new wife. I find her cloying and pretentious and self-absorbed. But I think I understand now why, despite the fact that I find her pretty irritating, I've always had this sense that she swooped in and saved him. And no matter what our interpersonal issues are, I'll always be grateful to her for that.
posted by decathecting at 8:36 PM on July 20, 2015 [35 favorites]
Though I'm also coming to realize now that, perhaps, I should expect more of my father. I've basically spent the last 20 years saying, "well, he did the best he could." And that's not wrong, per se. But he also basically checked out emotionally for most of my life, and I've excused that by saying, "well, he's my dad, and he's just not good at all the touchy-feely day-to-day parenting crap." But it's a gendered excuse. I think I need to seriously consider where to draw the line between trying to forgive him for not being the best possible parent under the worst possible circumstances, and letting him off the hook because he's a helpless man who shouldn't be expected to do any emotional hard work because men aren't good at that sort of thing. I'm really going to have to think about it. Because it took me a long time to forgive him, and I don't want to un-forgive him. But I also don't want to spend the rest of my life, or his, letting him shunt all the emotional and logistical work of our relationship onto a combination of me and his current wife.
posted by decathecting at 8:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 8:41 PM on July 20, 2015 [24 favorites]
I suppose it's fitting that I've been debating posting for over 24 hours because I didn't want to ask all the wonderful people in this thread to do my emotional labour, but I really need to thank everyone here, and babelfish, for arguably changing my life.
On Saturday night, after spending 2 days immersed in this thread (and starting to everything through that knot in the fence), I found out that my husband cheated on me, for the second time in a year.
I'm still trying to figure out if I stay or go, but as I'm processing all this, I've realized very quickly that when I found out for the first time last fall, I spent a huge amount of effort moderating the expression of my pain in the many conversations that followed. Basically, I worked to make sure he understood that it hurt, but that it wasn't so overwhelming for him that he couldn't handle the guilt. He cheated on me and I tried to make sure that it wasn't harder on him than it needed to be.
I now say fuck that shit. If there is to be any chance of making it through this, he is going to do the heavy lifting to get us through, and if he can't, well then the decision is made. He called tonight to ask what he needed to do to fix this (other than, you know, not cheat) and I told him outright that for now, he needed to start by letting me be angry and upset and weepy as I felt the need, and that he needed to just listen and take it. I've also made it clear that he needs to do his own emotional work on the 'why', or we're done.
And I have everyone in this thread to thank for being able to have this conversation, and to clearly set my terms. I don't know what the outcome is going to be, but I know it's certainly not how this would have gone if I had found out even a week ago.
posted by Lamb_Chop at 8:43 PM on July 20, 2015 [212 favorites]
On Saturday night, after spending 2 days immersed in this thread (and starting to everything through that knot in the fence), I found out that my husband cheated on me, for the second time in a year.
I'm still trying to figure out if I stay or go, but as I'm processing all this, I've realized very quickly that when I found out for the first time last fall, I spent a huge amount of effort moderating the expression of my pain in the many conversations that followed. Basically, I worked to make sure he understood that it hurt, but that it wasn't so overwhelming for him that he couldn't handle the guilt. He cheated on me and I tried to make sure that it wasn't harder on him than it needed to be.
I now say fuck that shit. If there is to be any chance of making it through this, he is going to do the heavy lifting to get us through, and if he can't, well then the decision is made. He called tonight to ask what he needed to do to fix this (other than, you know, not cheat) and I told him outright that for now, he needed to start by letting me be angry and upset and weepy as I felt the need, and that he needed to just listen and take it. I've also made it clear that he needs to do his own emotional work on the 'why', or we're done.
And I have everyone in this thread to thank for being able to have this conversation, and to clearly set my terms. I don't know what the outcome is going to be, but I know it's certainly not how this would have gone if I had found out even a week ago.
posted by Lamb_Chop at 8:43 PM on July 20, 2015 [212 favorites]
Oh wow Lamb Chop, thank you for sharing. Hugs if you want them.
posted by susiswimmer at 8:53 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by susiswimmer at 8:53 PM on July 20, 2015 [16 favorites]
I've been reading the thread off and on the last few days and nodding along occasionally, but I was just relating to it intellectually -- nothing was really hitting home in an emotional way. Then this evening I started thinking about a once-close male friend of mine who could talk for hours and hours about his issues in minute detail, but never seemed interested in anything I had going on or asked how I was. Like, when my mom died a few years ago, he said he was sorry, but then launched into a monologue I'd heard before about some minute problems with a coworker --- I was honestly too tired and stunned to say anything about it. I downgraded the friendship after that, aided by the fact we live far apart now. In many ways, he is a great companion -- smart, creative, funny in the same I am (we could -- and, at times, still can laugh at weird shit no one else understands). But I was so upset for so long at being someone he talked at, not with, about his personal problems that I eventually had to just stop interacting with him for a while. I didn't really have words to express what happened until I read this thread.
I also started thinking about my beloved, but eventually frustrating, job that I left earlier this year. I worked with amazing people there, who were generally pretty supportive of each other and helped each other cope with our heavy loads of job stress. I still ended up doing a lot of unreciprocated emotional labor, especially around birthdays. They were a big deal there, and I actually really like celebrating birthdays. I got known as the person who could always come up with some weird card or thinking of an idea to decorate someone's cubicle. It was fun! I liked making people happy on their birthday. Somehow, though, nothing really seemed to happen on my birthday. This year, I was so upset about it, but couldn't really tell anyone -- after all, getting upset about not having a happy birthday is what toddlers do, right? But all I could think about was the work I'd put into making sure other people had a good time and felt happy and remembered. I don't regret that labor, but I'd like it to be reciprocated.
So I had some quality sob time this evening, putting together some of the pieces. It feels weird to say thanks for that, but this thread helped me voice things I haven't been able to voice before.
posted by heurtebise at 8:55 PM on July 20, 2015 [35 favorites]
I also started thinking about my beloved, but eventually frustrating, job that I left earlier this year. I worked with amazing people there, who were generally pretty supportive of each other and helped each other cope with our heavy loads of job stress. I still ended up doing a lot of unreciprocated emotional labor, especially around birthdays. They were a big deal there, and I actually really like celebrating birthdays. I got known as the person who could always come up with some weird card or thinking of an idea to decorate someone's cubicle. It was fun! I liked making people happy on their birthday. Somehow, though, nothing really seemed to happen on my birthday. This year, I was so upset about it, but couldn't really tell anyone -- after all, getting upset about not having a happy birthday is what toddlers do, right? But all I could think about was the work I'd put into making sure other people had a good time and felt happy and remembered. I don't regret that labor, but I'd like it to be reciprocated.
So I had some quality sob time this evening, putting together some of the pieces. It feels weird to say thanks for that, but this thread helped me voice things I haven't been able to voice before.
posted by heurtebise at 8:55 PM on July 20, 2015 [35 favorites]
I now say fuck that shit.
Me too, Lamb_Chop. Here's another hug, and a fist bump, and the encouragement to do what you need to do to be safe and happy and secure, and support in knowing that you don't need to apologize for the damage caused by your husband's (second) fuckup.
"Yay boundaries!" is something I've started yelling at myself (in my head). I recommend it.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:03 PM on July 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
Me too, Lamb_Chop. Here's another hug, and a fist bump, and the encouragement to do what you need to do to be safe and happy and secure, and support in knowing that you don't need to apologize for the damage caused by your husband's (second) fuckup.
"Yay boundaries!" is something I've started yelling at myself (in my head). I recommend it.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:03 PM on July 20, 2015 [20 favorites]
This thread is what opens up when my browser starts and I will have it no other way.
Also today one of my friends asked me again why we haven't met up together in a big group (where I'm the only woman) at this one place I casually mentioned might be interesting for everyone, and I finally snapped that "It's not my fucking job to arrange this."
It felt amazing. Why was not I not letting myself feel this good before? Bah.
posted by erratic meatsack at 9:14 PM on July 20, 2015 [43 favorites]
Also today one of my friends asked me again why we haven't met up together in a big group (where I'm the only woman) at this one place I casually mentioned might be interesting for everyone, and I finally snapped that "It's not my fucking job to arrange this."
It felt amazing. Why was not I not letting myself feel this good before? Bah.
posted by erratic meatsack at 9:14 PM on July 20, 2015 [43 favorites]
"You hit your favorite limit for the day." Argh!
posted by Lexica at 9:18 PM on July 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 9:18 PM on July 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
Hey Lambchop, it took me two days to realise that my ex's rage because I wouldn't comfort him over failing to pay child support was not only crazy, but that oh hey, he didn't even think to apologise for not paying child support or notice that it might be a tad stressful for me with the far less well-paid job and full-time parenting to hear that there's no money for groceries, so can he borrow some money to pay the health insurance....
You get trained to think handling all this is what A Good Woman does. That it's selfish and cruel to be angry and unhappy about someone you love hurting you, and God forbid that you express that aloud or make them feel any more distress for what they've done. But that's because in your head, you're running towards them and imagining that they're running towards you too, that the path to recovery will be short because both of you are running towards each other.
But really, they're just standing there checking their phone and waiting for you to run a marathon over to them while they complain that you're always late, why does it take you so long to get there, you get enough practice after all...
He can run the fucking marathon to Crone Island. You can sit on the beach and read a book and drink something with an umbrella in it and nap.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:18 PM on July 20, 2015 [71 favorites]
You get trained to think handling all this is what A Good Woman does. That it's selfish and cruel to be angry and unhappy about someone you love hurting you, and God forbid that you express that aloud or make them feel any more distress for what they've done. But that's because in your head, you're running towards them and imagining that they're running towards you too, that the path to recovery will be short because both of you are running towards each other.
But really, they're just standing there checking their phone and waiting for you to run a marathon over to them while they complain that you're always late, why does it take you so long to get there, you get enough practice after all...
He can run the fucking marathon to Crone Island. You can sit on the beach and read a book and drink something with an umbrella in it and nap.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:18 PM on July 20, 2015 [71 favorites]
Lamb_Chop, I'm so sorry. Good for you for taking care of yourself right now.
posted by jaguar at 9:27 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 9:27 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hey Lamb_Chop: fuck that guy. Twice in one year? That's him being a goddamn asshole of epic proportions. Fuck him right in the ear. "So, since s/he's obviously so good in bed, go to them for whatever you need, because I'm done. Oh yeah sorry your keys don't work in the locks anymore. So sad too bad."
Fuck that noise. Cheat once, in my world, and yeah ok sometimes shit happens and maybe we can work through it. Twice in a year and you're out on your fucking ass, maybe whoever you decided to stick your dick in can give you a place to sleep.
Just so you know, Crone Island also has avocados that are always ripe exactly when you want them!
Is it possible maybe for men to visit Crone Island sometimes to eat of the bountiful guac? This fag will help with anything that needs helping with. Or like maybe we can all work to make Crone Island the whole world because this magical place with avocados and drinks and people fucking caring about each other sounds kind of awesome.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:39 PM on July 20, 2015 [50 favorites]
Fuck that noise. Cheat once, in my world, and yeah ok sometimes shit happens and maybe we can work through it. Twice in a year and you're out on your fucking ass, maybe whoever you decided to stick your dick in can give you a place to sleep.
Just so you know, Crone Island also has avocados that are always ripe exactly when you want them!
Is it possible maybe for men to visit Crone Island sometimes to eat of the bountiful guac? This fag will help with anything that needs helping with. Or like maybe we can all work to make Crone Island the whole world because this magical place with avocados and drinks and people fucking caring about each other sounds kind of awesome.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:39 PM on July 20, 2015 [50 favorites]
Hah, I've never done the womanly cooking and cleaning. This is because I can't catch a mayun and thus am still considered a "kid" even though I'm older than the next married girl. I get special dispensation because nobody expects shitty ol' single unwanted me to be a caregiver.
Muahahahahah.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:17 PM on July 20, 2015 [26 favorites]
Muahahahahah.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:17 PM on July 20, 2015 [26 favorites]
In my mind, Crone Island allows cruise ships to visit, full of friends and family of Crones, so that married Crones can disappear to the wild taco side of the island for a week, leaving their families at the tourist beach area to figure out the buffets themselves, do a little snorkeling, and remind themselves of how nice they should be to mom when she comes back from the restricted, Crones-only side of the island.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:20 PM on July 20, 2015 [56 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:20 PM on July 20, 2015 [56 favorites]
"This year, I was so upset about it, but couldn't really tell anyone -- after all, getting upset about not having a happy birthday is what toddlers do, right?" - heurtebise
Oh god. It's taken me years to work out why I hate my birthday so much. I'm an introvert, I don't really like parties, but that's what a birthday is right? Except for the time I got ambushed with a 'date night' everyone else was certain I needed. None of which are what I actually want though. Last year was the final straw. It was the second year in a row I'd tried to plan something for myself, only to have it interrupted and barged in on and by people who mean terribly well but instead of a nice meal with family I end up isolated at the end of the table while a three year old screams for thirty minutes on the floor next to me (I honestly thought those instances were just exaggerated by non-parents but no, his mother and father ignored him as he screamed and screamed in the middle of the restaurant and my birthday dinner) (a restaurant picked not to suit my taste, but the fact that most of the people who were coming are picky pains in the arses). So I come home realising that nobody actually understands me, don't seem to much care, and feel like shit.
So yesterday my partner asked me what I planned on my birthday. I said "breakfast, lunch and dinner out" and he got a little confused - he couldn't come out to lunch with me. I replied "no, I'm having lunch out, by myself." And yet, he still after all these years, asked if I were thinking about inviting my sister in order to fulfil my family obligations. Which, I mean, is its own emotional labour (he thought about me maintaining my relationship with my family) but god, for once, can my wants be first priority. Not what some other twit thinks I should do, or like, or want, but me?
posted by geek anachronism at 10:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [36 favorites]
Oh god. It's taken me years to work out why I hate my birthday so much. I'm an introvert, I don't really like parties, but that's what a birthday is right? Except for the time I got ambushed with a 'date night' everyone else was certain I needed. None of which are what I actually want though. Last year was the final straw. It was the second year in a row I'd tried to plan something for myself, only to have it interrupted and barged in on and by people who mean terribly well but instead of a nice meal with family I end up isolated at the end of the table while a three year old screams for thirty minutes on the floor next to me (I honestly thought those instances were just exaggerated by non-parents but no, his mother and father ignored him as he screamed and screamed in the middle of the restaurant and my birthday dinner) (a restaurant picked not to suit my taste, but the fact that most of the people who were coming are picky pains in the arses). So I come home realising that nobody actually understands me, don't seem to much care, and feel like shit.
So yesterday my partner asked me what I planned on my birthday. I said "breakfast, lunch and dinner out" and he got a little confused - he couldn't come out to lunch with me. I replied "no, I'm having lunch out, by myself." And yet, he still after all these years, asked if I were thinking about inviting my sister in order to fulfil my family obligations. Which, I mean, is its own emotional labour (he thought about me maintaining my relationship with my family) but god, for once, can my wants be first priority. Not what some other twit thinks I should do, or like, or want, but me?
posted by geek anachronism at 10:32 PM on July 20, 2015 [36 favorites]
geek anachronism, there's a guy who I always thought was kind of a yutz who I decided was really a yutz when this one thing happened in college. I'll never forget the time our group of friends was in my suite, celebrating his 21st birthday, and when it hit midnight and was then my 21st birthday, I was like, "Oh, by the way, it's my birthday," and this guy was basically like, "Oh," as if I were somehow trying to soak up the attention meant for him or ask something of him on (no longer) his special day.
People may wonder why I stopped hanging out with that group of friends not long after college; it largely had to do with the fact that the whole group used to go out to expensive dinners all the time (which I couldn't afford at the time) and then hang out for hours at this guy's gross apartment in the city, full of disgusting dishes in the sink, playing only video games this guy liked to play and laughing at his incredibly bad jokes. I didn't have a car until a year after college, and alas, it was around then that I decided it was time to live for myself and quit hanging out with this dude who couldn't even acknowledge me (repeatedly, not just that one time) when I was in the same room.
That is pretty much the story, for any of my old college friends who might happen to read this someday. It's not that I didn't have friends in the group; it's not that I don't think about them on a regular basis and wish things had been different. It's that it really wasn't worth it to hang out with this dude who was so clueless he couldn't even acknowledge my existence on a regular basis, much less on my birthday for like two seconds at midnight. It's a shame, too, because I really used to like his now-wife...
P.S. I regularly and willingly hang out at the residence of another guy friend who often has a large amount of dishes in the sink and what have you, because you know what? He fucking listens when I talk and acknowledges I exist and accepts my suggestions for activities when we're all over at his house. He treats me like a fucking person.
I really need a break on Crone Island.
posted by limeonaire at 11:09 PM on July 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
People may wonder why I stopped hanging out with that group of friends not long after college; it largely had to do with the fact that the whole group used to go out to expensive dinners all the time (which I couldn't afford at the time) and then hang out for hours at this guy's gross apartment in the city, full of disgusting dishes in the sink, playing only video games this guy liked to play and laughing at his incredibly bad jokes. I didn't have a car until a year after college, and alas, it was around then that I decided it was time to live for myself and quit hanging out with this dude who couldn't even acknowledge me (repeatedly, not just that one time) when I was in the same room.
That is pretty much the story, for any of my old college friends who might happen to read this someday. It's not that I didn't have friends in the group; it's not that I don't think about them on a regular basis and wish things had been different. It's that it really wasn't worth it to hang out with this dude who was so clueless he couldn't even acknowledge my existence on a regular basis, much less on my birthday for like two seconds at midnight. It's a shame, too, because I really used to like his now-wife...
P.S. I regularly and willingly hang out at the residence of another guy friend who often has a large amount of dishes in the sink and what have you, because you know what? He fucking listens when I talk and acknowledges I exist and accepts my suggestions for activities when we're all over at his house. He treats me like a fucking person.
I really need a break on Crone Island.
posted by limeonaire at 11:09 PM on July 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'm female and I'm very bad at the social aspects of emotional labour. Where this thread has really helped is in my attitude to other women who do all of this silent, hidden work. I internalised society's contempt for emotional labour.
I sometimes looked askance at women (my mother, sister, friends) who maintained their husbands' and childrens' social lives, coordinated dentist trips, 'nagged' them about things, 'fussed', and lost their tempers. I wondered why they didn't make a stink and tell their men-folk to help out.
I've been yelping with recognition throughout this thread, and I'm going to change my attitude about this. I shouldn't be blaming other women and devaluing their work. Sign me up for Crone Island.
posted by NoiselessPenguin at 11:27 PM on July 20, 2015 [68 favorites]
I sometimes looked askance at women (my mother, sister, friends) who maintained their husbands' and childrens' social lives, coordinated dentist trips, 'nagged' them about things, 'fussed', and lost their tempers. I wondered why they didn't make a stink and tell their men-folk to help out.
I've been yelping with recognition throughout this thread, and I'm going to change my attitude about this. I shouldn't be blaming other women and devaluing their work. Sign me up for Crone Island.
posted by NoiselessPenguin at 11:27 PM on July 20, 2015 [68 favorites]
I'm an introvert, I don't really like parties, but that's what a birthday is right?
Oh my fucking shit yes. (If I am sucking up air as a man please someone say so; I'm trying to talk as someone who dates men, and if I am distracting from what needs to be said here I would really appreciate being told to STFU).
For my birthday, here's what I want: I get to wake up whenever. And when I'm hungry I say to my (putative) boyfriend "Hey, I'd love breakfast." And he makes me something I'd like--French toast and some bacon and a mimosa, maybe. And then I get to do my own thing... read some Mefi, go have a smoke, just chill and do my thing. And in the evening "So I talked to a couple of your friends, they're coming over to chill and you don't have to do shit. There's food and [substances]" and that's it. That's ideal. I want (and, briefly, had) the boyfriend who gets that. Someone who has paid attention to my needs and desires (yes mark the occasion; no don't make it a Big Thing; yes understand what I like to eat and the social interactions that don't drain me, and yes some of that is on me in terms of communicating what does and does not work for me) and makes that happen.
Many years ago, a boyfriend (the boyfriend who Got It) said "Hey let's go here tonight, I really want to go here." As a trying-to-be-decent boyfriend I said sure. When I got there, I found out he'd (sneaky sneaky in all the best ways) gone through a bunch of my friends for people I hadn't seen in a while, and gathered them together. We all had a really great chill out and catch up time while playing pool, and I never loved him more than I did at that moment. That moment, to me, is the absolute ideal of what a partner of any gender can ideally do: providing a time that is exactly what your partner would like, without asking. And what that takes is simple-and-complex: pay some goddamn attention. He knew I was missing some friends (which was verbalized, not in a hinty way, just someone's name coming up in conversation and me going Oh wow I miss her), and he made some shit happen.
So guys? Do that for your partner. If she says "wow I miss hanging out with Foo and playing paintball" then call Foo and say "hey my partner wants to paintball. How's Saturday?" and arrange shit to make that happen.
I cried that night in the best way. It's not difficult to do. You can do it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:13 AM on July 21, 2015 [39 favorites]
Oh my fucking shit yes. (If I am sucking up air as a man please someone say so; I'm trying to talk as someone who dates men, and if I am distracting from what needs to be said here I would really appreciate being told to STFU).
For my birthday, here's what I want: I get to wake up whenever. And when I'm hungry I say to my (putative) boyfriend "Hey, I'd love breakfast." And he makes me something I'd like--French toast and some bacon and a mimosa, maybe. And then I get to do my own thing... read some Mefi, go have a smoke, just chill and do my thing. And in the evening "So I talked to a couple of your friends, they're coming over to chill and you don't have to do shit. There's food and [substances]" and that's it. That's ideal. I want (and, briefly, had) the boyfriend who gets that. Someone who has paid attention to my needs and desires (yes mark the occasion; no don't make it a Big Thing; yes understand what I like to eat and the social interactions that don't drain me, and yes some of that is on me in terms of communicating what does and does not work for me) and makes that happen.
Many years ago, a boyfriend (the boyfriend who Got It) said "Hey let's go here tonight, I really want to go here." As a trying-to-be-decent boyfriend I said sure. When I got there, I found out he'd (sneaky sneaky in all the best ways) gone through a bunch of my friends for people I hadn't seen in a while, and gathered them together. We all had a really great chill out and catch up time while playing pool, and I never loved him more than I did at that moment. That moment, to me, is the absolute ideal of what a partner of any gender can ideally do: providing a time that is exactly what your partner would like, without asking. And what that takes is simple-and-complex: pay some goddamn attention. He knew I was missing some friends (which was verbalized, not in a hinty way, just someone's name coming up in conversation and me going Oh wow I miss her), and he made some shit happen.
So guys? Do that for your partner. If she says "wow I miss hanging out with Foo and playing paintball" then call Foo and say "hey my partner wants to paintball. How's Saturday?" and arrange shit to make that happen.
I cried that night in the best way. It's not difficult to do. You can do it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:13 AM on July 21, 2015 [39 favorites]
Like most of you, I am really enjoying this thread. Not quite caught up on reading, but here's another anecdote.
I never quite saw it through this lens before, but this garbage with the division of emotional labor is what drove me to run away from home* in middle school. Something that drove me crazy for years: my brother, two years younger, would always do a complete garbage job of chores he didn't like. And my mother just let him get away with pretending he wasn't very good at washing dishing or cleaning toilets or whatever, since it was draining on her to keep after him. So I kept getting stuck with crappier chores because I did them right, because That is How You Do Chores, Right the First Time. I felt like I was always stuck picking up his slack. And one day I just snapped over the whole business. There was something that sounds really trivial, like he wanted me to make him breakfast, and I thought he could make his own damn breakfast (we're talking like pop an English muffin into the toaster and spread peanut butter on it, which a 5yo could manage, and he was about 12yo), and I'm sure there was some "oh, just be nice to your brother" business from the parents. It was totally the last straw. I declared I was tired of this crap, and I was running away. And then I just stormed out of the house. Can't remember whether I even bothered to pack a bag.
*Fear not, my goody two shoes self was very responsible about running away -- I called my mom not too long after to let her know which friend's house I had run away to, and I went to school the next day, and then came home after. And everyone pretended like nothing had happened. Except that occasionally later, someone would bring up my running away over making breakfast, because they absolutely missed the point.
These days, I'm moderately good at emotional labor, but I really can't be bothered with dating, and there's no way I'm taking on anybody else's emotional workload. If a reasonable guy who can take care of himself and manage his relationships and be a human falls into my life, great, but I'm not settling.
PS: Will there be pre-Crone Island clubs forming around the world, to prepare for our glorious future?
posted by ktkt at 12:41 AM on July 21, 2015 [36 favorites]
I never quite saw it through this lens before, but this garbage with the division of emotional labor is what drove me to run away from home* in middle school. Something that drove me crazy for years: my brother, two years younger, would always do a complete garbage job of chores he didn't like. And my mother just let him get away with pretending he wasn't very good at washing dishing or cleaning toilets or whatever, since it was draining on her to keep after him. So I kept getting stuck with crappier chores because I did them right, because That is How You Do Chores, Right the First Time. I felt like I was always stuck picking up his slack. And one day I just snapped over the whole business. There was something that sounds really trivial, like he wanted me to make him breakfast, and I thought he could make his own damn breakfast (we're talking like pop an English muffin into the toaster and spread peanut butter on it, which a 5yo could manage, and he was about 12yo), and I'm sure there was some "oh, just be nice to your brother" business from the parents. It was totally the last straw. I declared I was tired of this crap, and I was running away. And then I just stormed out of the house. Can't remember whether I even bothered to pack a bag.
*Fear not, my goody two shoes self was very responsible about running away -- I called my mom not too long after to let her know which friend's house I had run away to, and I went to school the next day, and then came home after. And everyone pretended like nothing had happened. Except that occasionally later, someone would bring up my running away over making breakfast, because they absolutely missed the point.
These days, I'm moderately good at emotional labor, but I really can't be bothered with dating, and there's no way I'm taking on anybody else's emotional workload. If a reasonable guy who can take care of himself and manage his relationships and be a human falls into my life, great, but I'm not settling.
PS: Will there be pre-Crone Island clubs forming around the world, to prepare for our glorious future?
posted by ktkt at 12:41 AM on July 21, 2015 [36 favorites]
There's one at my place right now. Oh, and look! It's margarita time!
posted by Thella at 1:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Thella at 1:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
On training daughters to be emotional labourers (old family recipe).
Take one daughter. A child with older brother/s is perfect.
Add one father who is good at social emotional labour but possibly checks-out at home.
Add one mother who feels her life's work was accomplished with a son as first born.
Stir some narcissism and generational ptsd into mother.
Marinate daughter in father's social thoughtfulness then remove father and place daughter directly on the grill of all mother's complaints.
Once seared, add older brother's insecurities. Bully with chauvinistic fervour.
Return daughter to the grill of conditional affection.
To test if training s complete, reduce heat on emotional validtion and increase expectation.
Daughter is trained if she will perform emotional labour on cue to her own detriment without recognising the cost.
(Cooks tip -you can reduce the effects of training by exposing the daughter to the light of metafilter for at least 24hrs. Return daughter to an alcohol and avocado party and balance output with appreciation).
posted by Thella at 2:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [27 favorites]
Take one daughter. A child with older brother/s is perfect.
Add one father who is good at social emotional labour but possibly checks-out at home.
Add one mother who feels her life's work was accomplished with a son as first born.
Stir some narcissism and generational ptsd into mother.
Marinate daughter in father's social thoughtfulness then remove father and place daughter directly on the grill of all mother's complaints.
Once seared, add older brother's insecurities. Bully with chauvinistic fervour.
Return daughter to the grill of conditional affection.
To test if training s complete, reduce heat on emotional validtion and increase expectation.
Daughter is trained if she will perform emotional labour on cue to her own detriment without recognising the cost.
(Cooks tip -you can reduce the effects of training by exposing the daughter to the light of metafilter for at least 24hrs. Return daughter to an alcohol and avocado party and balance output with appreciation).
posted by Thella at 2:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [27 favorites]
My vote for Crone Island theme song: Aretha Franklin, As Good To Me As I Am To You.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 3:27 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Sheydem-tants at 3:27 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is because I can't catch a mayun and thus am still considered a "kid" even though I'm older than the next married girl.
Jenfullmoon - you've hit upon a Hagrid-sized peeve of mine: single women being considered perpetual children in the family simply because we're not married. It's especially rich when the people doing this have gone straight from their parents' house (or, at most, college dorm) to marital residence without once living as an actual independent, apartment-dwelling, bill-paying, job-having, pet-owning, responsible adult all on their lonesome. You'd think that taking care of oneself and paying bills = responsible adult in the eyes of family. But nooooooooo. Catching a may-un is the key! I think because it demonstrates that I'm being a good girl and giving away my emotional labor - or something.
I'm at the very start of Gen-X, with parents that led a very old-school lifestyle; I think things have changed with parents these days as far as a period of independent singlehood is concerned. But the "marriage as marker of grown-upness" hasn't changed much, IME.
I surmise that this is what is at the root of much of the contempt directed at older single women - you know, the eternal "lolcathoarders" meme. We're not doing our share of emotional labor! Having a (grown) child, a man, or even a dog - because dogs take more energy and emotional labor than cats - demonstrates our bonafides. Fuck that noise.
I'm bringing my kitties to Crone Island! They are thrilled because island = ocean = lots of tuna!
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:27 AM on July 21, 2015 [68 favorites]
Jenfullmoon - you've hit upon a Hagrid-sized peeve of mine: single women being considered perpetual children in the family simply because we're not married. It's especially rich when the people doing this have gone straight from their parents' house (or, at most, college dorm) to marital residence without once living as an actual independent, apartment-dwelling, bill-paying, job-having, pet-owning, responsible adult all on their lonesome. You'd think that taking care of oneself and paying bills = responsible adult in the eyes of family. But nooooooooo. Catching a may-un is the key! I think because it demonstrates that I'm being a good girl and giving away my emotional labor - or something.
I'm at the very start of Gen-X, with parents that led a very old-school lifestyle; I think things have changed with parents these days as far as a period of independent singlehood is concerned. But the "marriage as marker of grown-upness" hasn't changed much, IME.
I surmise that this is what is at the root of much of the contempt directed at older single women - you know, the eternal "lolcathoarders" meme. We're not doing our share of emotional labor! Having a (grown) child, a man, or even a dog - because dogs take more energy and emotional labor than cats - demonstrates our bonafides. Fuck that noise.
I'm bringing my kitties to Crone Island! They are thrilled because island = ocean = lots of tuna!
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:27 AM on July 21, 2015 [68 favorites]
Rosie M. Banks, I think you nailed it: we're not really "women" until we're caregiving for someone, period. Once you're married off, then you're finally worth something.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:25 AM on July 21, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:25 AM on July 21, 2015 [39 favorites]
"This year, I was so upset about it, but couldn't really tell anyone -- after all, getting upset about not having a happy birthday is what toddlers do, right?"
THIS!!!! This This This This This!!!!! Fuck this!!!!
I am having revelation after revelation.
BTW - I also ran away in middle school, ktkt. I still get teased about it as if it's a joke how fucking badly I wanted out of that house.
Secondary recipe:
Take two daughters. Add one adorable much younger brother and first boy born in the family in 23 years.
Add one father who is good at schmoozing the ladies, but at home, rages about the place like he is fucking king of all he surveys.
Add one mother who still has her parents and her husband's parents to deal with plus massive narcissism and attention seeking.
Saute eldest daughter in marinade of "if you don't, your mother is going to leave us again." sauce
Once seared, add younger brother's abuse by father. Bully with chauvinistic fervour.
Return daughter to the grill of conditional affection.
To test if training s complete, reduce heat on emotional validation and increase expectation.
Daughter is trained if she will perform emotional labour on cue to her own detriment without recognising the cost.
Crone Island, here I come. I'm rowing as fast as I can.
Also, Lamb_Chop. Big hugs.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:28 AM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
THIS!!!! This This This This This!!!!! Fuck this!!!!
I am having revelation after revelation.
BTW - I also ran away in middle school, ktkt. I still get teased about it as if it's a joke how fucking badly I wanted out of that house.
Secondary recipe:
Take two daughters. Add one adorable much younger brother and first boy born in the family in 23 years.
Add one father who is good at schmoozing the ladies, but at home, rages about the place like he is fucking king of all he surveys.
Add one mother who still has her parents and her husband's parents to deal with plus massive narcissism and attention seeking.
Saute eldest daughter in marinade of "if you don't, your mother is going to leave us again." sauce
Once seared, add younger brother's abuse by father. Bully with chauvinistic fervour.
Return daughter to the grill of conditional affection.
To test if training s complete, reduce heat on emotional validation and increase expectation.
Daughter is trained if she will perform emotional labour on cue to her own detriment without recognising the cost.
Crone Island, here I come. I'm rowing as fast as I can.
Also, Lamb_Chop. Big hugs.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:28 AM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
. Once you're married off, then you're finally worth something.
in my extended mormon family i'll never be a full person because i chose to not have kids. if i could just lie and say we tried really hard and god just didn't see fit to send us an angel, i think they'd be fine, i think - it's the not wanting part that keeps me in perpetual girlhood.
posted by nadawi at 6:51 AM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
in my extended mormon family i'll never be a full person because i chose to not have kids. if i could just lie and say we tried really hard and god just didn't see fit to send us an angel, i think they'd be fine, i think - it's the not wanting part that keeps me in perpetual girlhood.
posted by nadawi at 6:51 AM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
littlewater wrote: > I refuse to spend days planning for "glitter and glue day" or take part in play dates with too damn many women watching a few kids while talking about Upper Middle Class White Mom Problems, much of which is this emotional labor. Nope. However, I will meet them for drinks if they want to talk about problems beyond getting cloth diapers clean enough, and are ready to put their "mom" role... and be a real person and talk to me... I'm so thankful my neighborhood has lots of stay at home dads....
So full-time moms aren't real people because we do emotional labor and talk about it, and full-time dads are better because they don't talk about the emotional labor.
A large part of this problem is that women don't get to give it up. They're talking about how to clean diapers because cleaning diapers is their job. To judge a woman as being a less than full person because she's talking about the emotional labor she does -- not using those explicit terms but that's what's going on there -- is misogynistic.
Not everyone gets along with everyone else, and people have different hobbies and conversational choices. But you've divided your neighbors into women and their diapers and their roles, vs real people who are men.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:11 AM on July 21, 2015 [109 favorites]
So full-time moms aren't real people because we do emotional labor and talk about it, and full-time dads are better because they don't talk about the emotional labor.
A large part of this problem is that women don't get to give it up. They're talking about how to clean diapers because cleaning diapers is their job. To judge a woman as being a less than full person because she's talking about the emotional labor she does -- not using those explicit terms but that's what's going on there -- is misogynistic.
Not everyone gets along with everyone else, and people have different hobbies and conversational choices. But you've divided your neighbors into women and their diapers and their roles, vs real people who are men.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:11 AM on July 21, 2015 [109 favorites]
I'm gonna let loose. I single-handedly raised three kids (23, 21, 17) for the past 12 years and have been in 2 serious dating relationships in that time (and why only two? because I was fucking busy working FULL TIME and RAISING THREE KIDS). Things that made me want to pull out my hair during this time in no particular order:
* when my shithead of an ex stopped seeing the kids years ago, despite living down the street, it became MY problem to try to deal with. I got the kids to therapy to work through their abandonment issues. I tried to talk to him. Yet still, my mother sees the disappearing-dad situation as a failure on MY part because I didn't fix it.
* when I was stressing about cooking Thanksgiving dinner (shopping, dietary restrictments, I wanted to do a Fun Run in the morning, timing the goddamned turkey and side dishes so the gravy wouldn't be cold), and my man at the time not only said, "What's the big deal? You just put a turkey in the oven and ignore it for 3 hours," but was more than happy to take ALL the credit for a delicious turkey and dinner because HE put the (prepared) bird in the oven while I was at the Fun Run.
* when my ex-BF thought he was a freakin' hero because he never faltered in his (laughably low) child support while seeing his son once yearly yet felt he was well within his rights to continually slam the boy's mother.
* when for Christmas dinner I once again stressed about making awesome family food, spent weeks/days prepping and cooking and freezing, and the man danced around the house needing constant praise because he made cheese dip. Yeah, asshole, and I made everything else, cleaned the house and bought presents for not only my entire family, but for yours as well.
* Dear Jesus, don't even get me started on Christmas and birthday cards. Just, no.
* 15 years back at any of my kids' soccer games, the coaches were always dads who showed up for the games, generally yelled at the kids, and got heaps of praise for giving up their Saturdays while the moms organized the shirts, the orange slices, the waters, the team photos.
* Every single doctor visit where I had to take the kids and hold them while they got their shots because their dad couldn't deal with it.
* When I had to get the cat(s) euthanized because again, my ex couldn't deal with it.
* When I had to take care of his mother AND father in hospice because again, he couldn't deal with it. And when his father died and left his substantial estate to my ex and we divorced and my kids didn't see a PENNY of it and I had to move to low-income housing and make lentil dinners look appealing while buying friggin' T3 calculators and paying for SAT prep courses and buying my clothes at Goodwill while my ex bought a vacation house which he's never invited the kids to see.
* Dearer Jesus, don't even get me started on the PTA. Because moms just DO this, right?
* when I had the BF who thought he was all that because he had to check tire pressure before we ever went out. That's what he did: checked tire pressure. He didn't buy gas or vacuum or wash dishes or make food or hang out with the kids, no. He checked tire pressure.
* a final relationship straw was when my ex-fiancee tried to gaslight me when I asked him to reimburse me for the above-mentioned Christmas feast and his response was, "But you didn't even buy my son a birthday gift," because it turned out that his son's birthday was the previous month, he never told me, and I was supposed to magically know this (because I have a vagina).
I now have two strong and fiercely independent young women as daughters, and I have a son who just fucking vacuums, who knows to start AND FINISH a load of laundry and who knows to buy enough greens for a week's worth of salads and not just enough food for himself.
posted by kinetic at 7:11 AM on July 21, 2015 [80 favorites]
* when my shithead of an ex stopped seeing the kids years ago, despite living down the street, it became MY problem to try to deal with. I got the kids to therapy to work through their abandonment issues. I tried to talk to him. Yet still, my mother sees the disappearing-dad situation as a failure on MY part because I didn't fix it.
* when I was stressing about cooking Thanksgiving dinner (shopping, dietary restrictments, I wanted to do a Fun Run in the morning, timing the goddamned turkey and side dishes so the gravy wouldn't be cold), and my man at the time not only said, "What's the big deal? You just put a turkey in the oven and ignore it for 3 hours," but was more than happy to take ALL the credit for a delicious turkey and dinner because HE put the (prepared) bird in the oven while I was at the Fun Run.
* when my ex-BF thought he was a freakin' hero because he never faltered in his (laughably low) child support while seeing his son once yearly yet felt he was well within his rights to continually slam the boy's mother.
* when for Christmas dinner I once again stressed about making awesome family food, spent weeks/days prepping and cooking and freezing, and the man danced around the house needing constant praise because he made cheese dip. Yeah, asshole, and I made everything else, cleaned the house and bought presents for not only my entire family, but for yours as well.
* Dear Jesus, don't even get me started on Christmas and birthday cards. Just, no.
* 15 years back at any of my kids' soccer games, the coaches were always dads who showed up for the games, generally yelled at the kids, and got heaps of praise for giving up their Saturdays while the moms organized the shirts, the orange slices, the waters, the team photos.
* Every single doctor visit where I had to take the kids and hold them while they got their shots because their dad couldn't deal with it.
* When I had to get the cat(s) euthanized because again, my ex couldn't deal with it.
* When I had to take care of his mother AND father in hospice because again, he couldn't deal with it. And when his father died and left his substantial estate to my ex and we divorced and my kids didn't see a PENNY of it and I had to move to low-income housing and make lentil dinners look appealing while buying friggin' T3 calculators and paying for SAT prep courses and buying my clothes at Goodwill while my ex bought a vacation house which he's never invited the kids to see.
* Dearer Jesus, don't even get me started on the PTA. Because moms just DO this, right?
* when I had the BF who thought he was all that because he had to check tire pressure before we ever went out. That's what he did: checked tire pressure. He didn't buy gas or vacuum or wash dishes or make food or hang out with the kids, no. He checked tire pressure.
* a final relationship straw was when my ex-fiancee tried to gaslight me when I asked him to reimburse me for the above-mentioned Christmas feast and his response was, "But you didn't even buy my son a birthday gift," because it turned out that his son's birthday was the previous month, he never told me, and I was supposed to magically know this (because I have a vagina).
I now have two strong and fiercely independent young women as daughters, and I have a son who just fucking vacuums, who knows to start AND FINISH a load of laundry and who knows to buy enough greens for a week's worth of salads and not just enough food for himself.
posted by kinetic at 7:11 AM on July 21, 2015 [80 favorites]
Lol, when I was 22 I lived with this asshole and one day I was going to make burritos for dinner, had all the ingredients and everything, and he came home and said "Don't worry about dinner, baby, I'm making tri-tip!" And I said "Wow, awesome, thank you!" And he said "Yeah, so I just need you to put it in the marinade and let it sit for about half an hour, and then put it in the oven at 400. Maybe make some veggies or something for a side. Anyway I'm heading out again, I have to go drop off some equipment at work." He actually wanted praise for this, and was angry that I didn't drop my panties and fawn over him in appreciation for his "taking care of" dinner. We had a HUGE fight over it. That relationship didn't last another six months.
I wrote way upthread about how the devaluation of emotional labor also means that I can't live with or get married to my (wonderful, emotional-labor-performing) sweetie because he's a preschool teacher and we just aren't there financially yet. Younger friends of mine have boyfriends/fiances who work in tech and they have these beautiful old apartments in the Mission that just make me burn up with envy, but when I listen to them joke about how the boys can only make quesadillas and never clean up after themselves, I would take my situation any day.
posted by sunset in snow country at 7:55 AM on July 21, 2015 [33 favorites]
I wrote way upthread about how the devaluation of emotional labor also means that I can't live with or get married to my (wonderful, emotional-labor-performing) sweetie because he's a preschool teacher and we just aren't there financially yet. Younger friends of mine have boyfriends/fiances who work in tech and they have these beautiful old apartments in the Mission that just make me burn up with envy, but when I listen to them joke about how the boys can only make quesadillas and never clean up after themselves, I would take my situation any day.
posted by sunset in snow country at 7:55 AM on July 21, 2015 [33 favorites]
Seeing nadawi's post on not having kids and how maybe lying would make it less of an issue, I now realize that my PhD may be good for something after all: if any of my friends are in a similar situation, I should offer to make plans to go out for dinner with them on a monthly basis, and toast the first round of drinks with "fuck having kids". Henceforth, they'll be able to tell their family that they're "seeing Dr. Kiwano about it every month, but still haven't gotten pregnant" (and hope that their family never learns that my doctorate is in mathematics).
(I imagine this bit of credential-dropping could also help with social problems other than people insisting on breeding, and will have to keep my ears open for them...)
posted by kiwano at 7:59 AM on July 21, 2015 [76 favorites]
(I imagine this bit of credential-dropping could also help with social problems other than people insisting on breeding, and will have to keep my ears open for them...)
posted by kiwano at 7:59 AM on July 21, 2015 [76 favorites]
That moment, to me, is the absolute ideal of what a partner of any gender can ideally do: providing a time that is exactly what your partner would like, without asking. And what that takes is simple-and-complex: pay some goddamn attention.
YES YES YES
Marry me. OK, I'm already married, and you don't go my way, but marry me anyway. OMG.
You would think that paying attention is hard or something. "Hey, what do you want for Christmas?" I always ask for some kitchen gadget or other, because cooking makes me happy, it's how I chill. Christmas comes around, and I'm hoping for the requested kitchen gadget or something like it...and it's a ring. I HAVE RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS! I stopped wearing rings after I had to have my wedding band cut off for the 3rd time. I asked for [kitchen gadget]. "Well, [kitchen gadget] isn't very romantic!" WTF? It took YEARS to break him of that.
Mothers Day, all I want is to sleep as late as I please, have a hot bath with fancy bubbles, and I want to go out for sushi or something with the fam. In the bits in between, I want to fuck around on the internet or watch Doctor Who or just lie on a blanket in the yard with the dogs and read. I say this explicitly every year. For YEARS, he would wake me up at ass in the morning to go hither and thither, and then be upset because I was unhappy. Well, dammit, none of this is what I wanted. I just wanted a really chill day where I didn't have to do anything except eventually get dressed for sushi out. The Monsters are older now, with jobs and schedules and such. They buy me nice Tequila, fancy bubble bath, and dramatic eyeshadow, and leave it on my computer with an obnoxious card before they go to work in the morning. There's usually a note to the effect of "Reservations at [sushi place] at 8PM, should probably not wear the leopard print jammies." They get home from work, tell me the eyeshadow looks fantastic, and we go stuff our faces with fishes and sake until I can barely move. The husband doesn't get it. Even when I explain that I just want ONE DAY where I only have ME to take care of, he still does not understand. Why don't I want [thing on TV that advertisers say every Mother wants]? It is genuinely upsetting to him that I want what I want, and what I want is to do not much of anything.
It shouldn't be hard to pay attention, but I seem to be wrong in that assumption, because so many people just don't.
posted by MissySedai at 8:10 AM on July 21, 2015 [49 favorites]
YES YES YES
Marry me. OK, I'm already married, and you don't go my way, but marry me anyway. OMG.
You would think that paying attention is hard or something. "Hey, what do you want for Christmas?" I always ask for some kitchen gadget or other, because cooking makes me happy, it's how I chill. Christmas comes around, and I'm hoping for the requested kitchen gadget or something like it...and it's a ring. I HAVE RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS! I stopped wearing rings after I had to have my wedding band cut off for the 3rd time. I asked for [kitchen gadget]. "Well, [kitchen gadget] isn't very romantic!" WTF? It took YEARS to break him of that.
Mothers Day, all I want is to sleep as late as I please, have a hot bath with fancy bubbles, and I want to go out for sushi or something with the fam. In the bits in between, I want to fuck around on the internet or watch Doctor Who or just lie on a blanket in the yard with the dogs and read. I say this explicitly every year. For YEARS, he would wake me up at ass in the morning to go hither and thither, and then be upset because I was unhappy. Well, dammit, none of this is what I wanted. I just wanted a really chill day where I didn't have to do anything except eventually get dressed for sushi out. The Monsters are older now, with jobs and schedules and such. They buy me nice Tequila, fancy bubble bath, and dramatic eyeshadow, and leave it on my computer with an obnoxious card before they go to work in the morning. There's usually a note to the effect of "Reservations at [sushi place] at 8PM, should probably not wear the leopard print jammies." They get home from work, tell me the eyeshadow looks fantastic, and we go stuff our faces with fishes and sake until I can barely move. The husband doesn't get it. Even when I explain that I just want ONE DAY where I only have ME to take care of, he still does not understand. Why don't I want [thing on TV that advertisers say every Mother wants]? It is genuinely upsetting to him that I want what I want, and what I want is to do not much of anything.
It shouldn't be hard to pay attention, but I seem to be wrong in that assumption, because so many people just don't.
posted by MissySedai at 8:10 AM on July 21, 2015 [49 favorites]
Here's another ask that grew out of this thread: Should I Just Go Straight to Crone Island?
Obviously we should ALL just go straight to Crone Island, but there's some good advice brewing about how to separate the men from the boys, as it were, where emotional work is concerned.
posted by babelfish at 8:14 AM on July 21, 2015 [29 favorites]
Obviously we should ALL just go straight to Crone Island, but there's some good advice brewing about how to separate the men from the boys, as it were, where emotional work is concerned.
posted by babelfish at 8:14 AM on July 21, 2015 [29 favorites]
oh man i am watching that Ask like it's my damn job
posted by palomar at 8:34 AM on July 21, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by palomar at 8:34 AM on July 21, 2015 [16 favorites]
Miscellanea:
One, for those of you needing maybe a safer space to think out loud, don't be afraid to reach out to each other (especially if you have run across others with similar situations) 1:1 or in small groups to talk.
Two, I am trying the above with a small group of people and an email-based Google Group, but I am thinking about making a forum-type Google Group in lieu of my previous forum (I hate phpBB, I have realized, it's a hassle to admin) just as a more quasi-private place to churn some of this stuff. If anyone wants to be a tester, MefiMail me or hit me on Twitter.
Three: one of the things that we've only lightly touched on here is the unavoidable real-world situation where the emotional labor situation is skewed, temporarily or permanently or TBD, because of health issues (of all kinds), employment issues, bad luck, Devil-You-Know situations, etc. I don't have a solution for that, but I know that there are people here who can't just say "welp, this is bullshit, I'm out" and that is hard and it should be recognized that it is hard.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
One, for those of you needing maybe a safer space to think out loud, don't be afraid to reach out to each other (especially if you have run across others with similar situations) 1:1 or in small groups to talk.
Two, I am trying the above with a small group of people and an email-based Google Group, but I am thinking about making a forum-type Google Group in lieu of my previous forum (I hate phpBB, I have realized, it's a hassle to admin) just as a more quasi-private place to churn some of this stuff. If anyone wants to be a tester, MefiMail me or hit me on Twitter.
Three: one of the things that we've only lightly touched on here is the unavoidable real-world situation where the emotional labor situation is skewed, temporarily or permanently or TBD, because of health issues (of all kinds), employment issues, bad luck, Devil-You-Know situations, etc. I don't have a solution for that, but I know that there are people here who can't just say "welp, this is bullshit, I'm out" and that is hard and it should be recognized that it is hard.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
Pursuant to that Ask, this is the greatest deletion reason of all time. OF ALL TIME.
posted by divined by radio at 8:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [42 favorites]
posted by divined by radio at 8:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [42 favorites]
divined by radio: YES. I want that to be some sort of boilerplate deletion reason, on-call for any thread that's not about men.
posted by XtinaS at 8:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 8:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Why don't I want [thing on TV that advertisers say every Mother wants]?
Okay, this got me. I'm not a fan of long-stemmed red roses. I get big itchy hives if I get even a tiny scratch from a thorn, I'm not a big red flower fan in general, and I don't like how the long stems look in a vase (so I end up cutting them down, so I get scratched on the thorns, repeat). My ex-husband had to have known this, because every time he bought them for me I would say so (not when receiving them, but later at other times so it wouldn't sound ungrateful). I love that he bought me flowers. I would have loved a bouquet of anything, even yellow or white or parti-colored roses, which I adore (or even just red roses already in a vase so I didn't have to deal with the thorn thing!). I even showed him pictures of the sorts of flowers I liked. And as our marriage was falling apart, but we were working on trying to reconcile, he bought me flowers for my birthday. A huge box of long-stemmed red roses. And I'm sure it cost a fortune.
And I broke down crying and angry -- because after so many years, and so many fights, and so much therapy, how could he still not care what I wanted? And here he was trying to do something nice for me, and this was what The Media says is what all women want (plus $$$=♥♥♥ , right?), and even when I explained it, again (while apologizing for crying!), he just couldn't understand what my problem was. To the end of our marriage, that was the episode where he did the perfect husband thing on my birthday and I such an ungrateful bitch that I couldn't even pretend to appreciate it.
And it's funny because I've been reading and loving this thread, but not commenting because I do the bare minimum of emotional labor w/r/t relatives (haven't bought a paper card for any occasion in decades), and my husband is great with it w/r/t social stuff (He is always the first up helping clear the table at others' houses, and when the hostess protests, he always jokes, "So I should just sit here and let you bad-talk my mother for not teaching me how to help out in the kitchen? No way." He even corrects other dads who call parenting "babysitting." He's one of the good ones. And yet I told him about this thread, and tried to have a conversation about it, and sent it to him in hopes he'll read it -- and he immediately turned it into a conversation about how good he is about this and how he cares a lot, and does more than most guys, etc, etc, and my stroking his ego back to its happy place rather than just a conversation about something I wanted to talk about.
And if you're reading this babe, you are great and I love you and if you made it this far and actually noticed that I wrote something, - just show me this post or use the code phrase "The Giraffe Flies At Midnight" and I will reward you awesomely for it :)
posted by Mchelly at 8:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [62 favorites]
Okay, this got me. I'm not a fan of long-stemmed red roses. I get big itchy hives if I get even a tiny scratch from a thorn, I'm not a big red flower fan in general, and I don't like how the long stems look in a vase (so I end up cutting them down, so I get scratched on the thorns, repeat). My ex-husband had to have known this, because every time he bought them for me I would say so (not when receiving them, but later at other times so it wouldn't sound ungrateful). I love that he bought me flowers. I would have loved a bouquet of anything, even yellow or white or parti-colored roses, which I adore (or even just red roses already in a vase so I didn't have to deal with the thorn thing!). I even showed him pictures of the sorts of flowers I liked. And as our marriage was falling apart, but we were working on trying to reconcile, he bought me flowers for my birthday. A huge box of long-stemmed red roses. And I'm sure it cost a fortune.
And I broke down crying and angry -- because after so many years, and so many fights, and so much therapy, how could he still not care what I wanted? And here he was trying to do something nice for me, and this was what The Media says is what all women want (plus $$$=♥♥♥ , right?), and even when I explained it, again (while apologizing for crying!), he just couldn't understand what my problem was. To the end of our marriage, that was the episode where he did the perfect husband thing on my birthday and I such an ungrateful bitch that I couldn't even pretend to appreciate it.
And it's funny because I've been reading and loving this thread, but not commenting because I do the bare minimum of emotional labor w/r/t relatives (haven't bought a paper card for any occasion in decades), and my husband is great with it w/r/t social stuff (He is always the first up helping clear the table at others' houses, and when the hostess protests, he always jokes, "So I should just sit here and let you bad-talk my mother for not teaching me how to help out in the kitchen? No way." He even corrects other dads who call parenting "babysitting." He's one of the good ones. And yet I told him about this thread, and tried to have a conversation about it, and sent it to him in hopes he'll read it -- and he immediately turned it into a conversation about how good he is about this and how he cares a lot, and does more than most guys, etc, etc, and my stroking his ego back to its happy place rather than just a conversation about something I wanted to talk about.
And if you're reading this babe, you are great and I love you and if you made it this far and actually noticed that I wrote something, - just show me this post or use the code phrase "The Giraffe Flies At Midnight" and I will reward you awesomely for it :)
posted by Mchelly at 8:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [62 favorites]
I'm not caught up reading yet at all, but I'm going to throw in another couple anecdotes:
I have two brothers, one four years older and one 11 years younger. Every single year, my mother calls me on each of their birthdays to remind me to call them. Now, I have a weird savant thing going on with birthdays, and know basically the birthday of everyone I was ever even casual friends with. I would no more forget my brothers' birthdays than I would forget my own name; my mother is well aware of this. But still, she calls me, and I call them. However, oddly, neither one of my brothers has remembered my birthday in 25 years. Every single year, without fail, I get an embarrassed call or FB message a few days after my birthday. Guess why? Yep, you got it: she's not calling them to remind them on such-and-such date that such-and-such date is my birthday.
Second anecdote: for years, when she heard that my younger brother and I hadn't spoken for a couple months, my mother would call me and berate me, asking why I never called him. Finally, I asked her, "Mom, I'm curious -- do you ever call Michael and ask him why he doesn't call me?" Of course, she had not. Why not, I asked? She had no real answer for this.
posted by holborne at 9:15 AM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
I have two brothers, one four years older and one 11 years younger. Every single year, my mother calls me on each of their birthdays to remind me to call them. Now, I have a weird savant thing going on with birthdays, and know basically the birthday of everyone I was ever even casual friends with. I would no more forget my brothers' birthdays than I would forget my own name; my mother is well aware of this. But still, she calls me, and I call them. However, oddly, neither one of my brothers has remembered my birthday in 25 years. Every single year, without fail, I get an embarrassed call or FB message a few days after my birthday. Guess why? Yep, you got it: she's not calling them to remind them on such-and-such date that such-and-such date is my birthday.
Second anecdote: for years, when she heard that my younger brother and I hadn't spoken for a couple months, my mother would call me and berate me, asking why I never called him. Finally, I asked her, "Mom, I'm curious -- do you ever call Michael and ask him why he doesn't call me?" Of course, she had not. Why not, I asked? She had no real answer for this.
posted by holborne at 9:15 AM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
the man danced around the house needing constant praise because he made cheese dip
I would like to add that I have Celiac disease, and he blended the world's easiest artichoke spinach dip, PUT MOTHERFUCKING BREADCRUMBS ALL OVER THE TOP and got snippy as hell and wouldn't talk to me all of Christmas Day and night because I asked, "If you were only going to make one thing, how hard would it have been to make it edible for me?"
Further, the cheese dip story made me realize I was about to marry Ignatius Reilly. That pulled me up short.
posted by kinetic at 9:18 AM on July 21, 2015 [25 favorites]
I would like to add that I have Celiac disease, and he blended the world's easiest artichoke spinach dip, PUT MOTHERFUCKING BREADCRUMBS ALL OVER THE TOP and got snippy as hell and wouldn't talk to me all of Christmas Day and night because I asked, "If you were only going to make one thing, how hard would it have been to make it edible for me?"
Further, the cheese dip story made me realize I was about to marry Ignatius Reilly. That pulled me up short.
posted by kinetic at 9:18 AM on July 21, 2015 [25 favorites]
Oh god. Sudden flashback: Two of my brothers were estranged for a while, and for *years* my dad would regularly (and frequently) ask me if I'd gotten them talking to each other yet.
posted by rmd1023 at 9:19 AM on July 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 9:19 AM on July 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
When I asked him to elaborate he said he really likes hanging around with his guy friends because nothing is expected of him and he feels like he can relax. So I asked, then why even date women? Why not just hang out with your guy friends? And he said that he loves being around women because they’re kind, and soft and comforting and they make him feel relaxed and good in a way that men don’t. And I was like – you mean nurturing? And he was like – YES, nurturing.
You know, my husband for the most part is one of the stellar ones in picking up on emotional labor. He deals with his family, remembers dates, pays attention to what I like, etc. etc. etc.
But he said he could totally related to the above sentiments.
So, I laid it out flat for him, and he said he'd never really thought about it that way. (Excuse the all caps)
BEING SOFT AND COMFORTING AND NUTURING IS REALLY FUCKING HARD WORK. IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT COMES NATURALLY JUST BECAUSE I IDENTIFY AS FEMALE. IT TAKES EFFORT AND TIME AND IS EXHAUSTING AND DRAINING.
So, to be effectively told that you want to reap the benefits of someone else's hard work and then not reciprocate at all, because it's hard work for you (no fucking kidding) is... well, it can be devastating. It's an indication of how little you are valued. The complete lack of empathy where you can't even conceive that the thing you don't want to do bc it's not relaxing is also not relaxing for the other person.
Oy.
posted by gaspode at 9:20 AM on July 21, 2015 [101 favorites]
You know, my husband for the most part is one of the stellar ones in picking up on emotional labor. He deals with his family, remembers dates, pays attention to what I like, etc. etc. etc.
But he said he could totally related to the above sentiments.
So, I laid it out flat for him, and he said he'd never really thought about it that way. (Excuse the all caps)
BEING SOFT AND COMFORTING AND NUTURING IS REALLY FUCKING HARD WORK. IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT COMES NATURALLY JUST BECAUSE I IDENTIFY AS FEMALE. IT TAKES EFFORT AND TIME AND IS EXHAUSTING AND DRAINING.
So, to be effectively told that you want to reap the benefits of someone else's hard work and then not reciprocate at all, because it's hard work for you (no fucking kidding) is... well, it can be devastating. It's an indication of how little you are valued. The complete lack of empathy where you can't even conceive that the thing you don't want to do bc it's not relaxing is also not relaxing for the other person.
Oy.
posted by gaspode at 9:20 AM on July 21, 2015 [101 favorites]
i've been lurking on metafilter for at least 6 or 7 years now and this amazing thread and all the amazing women in it have finally convinced me to throw $5 at mefi and join up! crone island sounds like a dream and reading everyone's comments has illuminated so much in my life and past and present relationships. so - thank you everyone, and i'm really glad to be here
posted by burgerrr at 9:20 AM on July 21, 2015 [65 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 9:20 AM on July 21, 2015 [65 favorites]
The corpse in the library, you've made my point exactly.
Not everyone gets along with everyone else, and people have different hobbies and conversational choices. But you've divided your neighbors into women and their diapers and their roles, vs real people who are men.
And I've been labeled as a "not-woman" ("mean", not our friend, etc) because I don't participate in the kinds of work they do/things they are interested/are important to them. I'm not a woman that talks about diapers, so I'm not "a woman" to them. And it's totally ok for everyone to be interested in/do whatever they want! But because my husband does a lot of the kid stuff, and I'm not interested in talking kid stuff, they don't know what to do with me but label me as "other".
The neighborhood women end up in a bad spot when it's neighborhood pool day and 4 women and the kids go - but since I can't go due to work, we are outcast because everyone knows they won't invite my husband to pool day! So I'm not invited. We don't fit the paradigm.
It's a lot easier for me dealing with the stay at home dads, maybe because they are more used to their wives pushing back on time and energy constraints, and they don't have high interaction expectations from me; I don't have the time or emotional reserve right now for it.
And people like The Underpants Monster, my spinster-chic best friend, women that have very time intense jobs (me) and other women that don't do emotional labor in the traditional way are cast out, "not women." We're too sick, too selfish (the singles and the workers). And we don't usually care about the same topics in our neighborhood anyhow.
The moms worry about kid coordination, mostly.
My spinster friend does community gardening and animal rescue.
I do some zoning issue work and crime prevention.
So it's just a mismatch. They will never figure me out. And I'll never want to join their club anyhow. It's all fine, but this thread reminded me that this emotional labor is one of the ways we group the women and the not-women.
We are ALL so trapped in the patriarchal roles that when those that break free even a little bit, like I did, there's a rift. Or at least gossip!
I do sincerely blame any rift between me and the neighborhood women squarely on gender expectations. That's abundantly clear. When any of us step outside our expected gender roles (from refusing to help clean up Thanksgiving all the way to gender-nonconforming) some people are going to get bent out of shape or be confused.
So we are all nervous and scared here. We know leaving behind the emotional labor will have a high cost on our worth as defined by the patriarchy and we will pay for it through society attempting to get us back in that box.
And besides, if we quit doing this no one in America will ever get another birthday card and Hallmark will be out of business.
posted by littlewater at 9:21 AM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
Not everyone gets along with everyone else, and people have different hobbies and conversational choices. But you've divided your neighbors into women and their diapers and their roles, vs real people who are men.
And I've been labeled as a "not-woman" ("mean", not our friend, etc) because I don't participate in the kinds of work they do/things they are interested/are important to them. I'm not a woman that talks about diapers, so I'm not "a woman" to them. And it's totally ok for everyone to be interested in/do whatever they want! But because my husband does a lot of the kid stuff, and I'm not interested in talking kid stuff, they don't know what to do with me but label me as "other".
The neighborhood women end up in a bad spot when it's neighborhood pool day and 4 women and the kids go - but since I can't go due to work, we are outcast because everyone knows they won't invite my husband to pool day! So I'm not invited. We don't fit the paradigm.
It's a lot easier for me dealing with the stay at home dads, maybe because they are more used to their wives pushing back on time and energy constraints, and they don't have high interaction expectations from me; I don't have the time or emotional reserve right now for it.
And people like The Underpants Monster, my spinster-chic best friend, women that have very time intense jobs (me) and other women that don't do emotional labor in the traditional way are cast out, "not women." We're too sick, too selfish (the singles and the workers). And we don't usually care about the same topics in our neighborhood anyhow.
The moms worry about kid coordination, mostly.
My spinster friend does community gardening and animal rescue.
I do some zoning issue work and crime prevention.
So it's just a mismatch. They will never figure me out. And I'll never want to join their club anyhow. It's all fine, but this thread reminded me that this emotional labor is one of the ways we group the women and the not-women.
We are ALL so trapped in the patriarchal roles that when those that break free even a little bit, like I did, there's a rift. Or at least gossip!
I do sincerely blame any rift between me and the neighborhood women squarely on gender expectations. That's abundantly clear. When any of us step outside our expected gender roles (from refusing to help clean up Thanksgiving all the way to gender-nonconforming) some people are going to get bent out of shape or be confused.
So we are all nervous and scared here. We know leaving behind the emotional labor will have a high cost on our worth as defined by the patriarchy and we will pay for it through society attempting to get us back in that box.
And besides, if we quit doing this no one in America will ever get another birthday card and Hallmark will be out of business.
posted by littlewater at 9:21 AM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
Welcome, burgerrr! Glad you're here.
posted by lauranesson at 9:23 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by lauranesson at 9:23 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Two, I am trying the above with a small group of people and an email-based Google Group, but I am thinking about making a forum-type Google Group in lieu of my previous forum (I hate phpBB, I have realized, it's a hassle to admin) just as a more quasi-private place to churn some of this stuff. If anyone wants to be a tester, MefiMail me or hit me on Twitter.
I'd be interested in being part of this. Also, I'm sure you've considered this but I just wanted to throw it out there just in case - you can do Facebook groups and set them to "secret". It's not private w/r/t your real names, but any stuff that takes place within the group is very private.
In any case, I'd be up for any kind of a group, whatever form it takes. I will also DM you on twitter.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:43 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'd be interested in being part of this. Also, I'm sure you've considered this but I just wanted to throw it out there just in case - you can do Facebook groups and set them to "secret". It's not private w/r/t your real names, but any stuff that takes place within the group is very private.
In any case, I'd be up for any kind of a group, whatever form it takes. I will also DM you on twitter.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:43 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've been reading this thread on and off for the past few days. This morning I was talking with my 75 year old mom and she said something about how my dad's job was to pick the thing he wanted and hers was to do all the steps to make that happen. I said, oh that reminds me of an interesting discussion I've been reading about how women do more emotional labor, you know, all those little things to make it "just happen." And she said, "oh well that's just the way things ARE."
Thank god I can have this discussion about how this doesn't have to just be the way things ARE.
posted by MsMolly at 10:05 AM on July 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
Thank god I can have this discussion about how this doesn't have to just be the way things ARE.
posted by MsMolly at 10:05 AM on July 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
Wait, littlewater, what's the deal with pool day? How come no men or "not women" are allowed in the pool? Do your kids have to miss it, too, or is that what "women end up in a bad spot on pool day" means--that the kid-to-caretaker ratio is off on pool day because your kids get to go but their parents are banned? What about the other stay-at-home dads? Are they banned, too? I don't get pool day. Pool day sounds weird.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 10:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah .... There are some things that are just unspoken women-only. When I get these kinds of invites and I'm busy, I forward it to my husband as he's the one watching the kid. BUT, the women's role in this is to watch kids but mostly to have lady talk time, and a man showing up would be a fly in the buttermilk. AWKWARD.
I mean, if the men all wanted to go together to "babysit" the kids at the pool, that's fine, but not on the (implied) women-only pool day.
So if your family doesn't work in traditional gender roles, you get cast out of a lot of events. Which is honestly 100% fine by me.
I mean, I guess I could have my husband drop my kid off when im busy and not send an adult - but then I would be the irresponsible parent / worthless mother, and they would complain that I'm not pulling my weight. I can't win.
posted by littlewater at 10:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
I mean, if the men all wanted to go together to "babysit" the kids at the pool, that's fine, but not on the (implied) women-only pool day.
So if your family doesn't work in traditional gender roles, you get cast out of a lot of events. Which is honestly 100% fine by me.
I mean, I guess I could have my husband drop my kid off when im busy and not send an adult - but then I would be the irresponsible parent / worthless mother, and they would complain that I'm not pulling my weight. I can't win.
posted by littlewater at 10:42 AM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
My husband has been traveling all week and I've been hosting family (to help with childcare), so we've both been busy. In one of our usual "what's going on the internet?" discussions, I mentioned this thread, said it had become a huge conversation for the site and was all over the Blue, the Green, the Gray. This morning he asked me to send him a link to the conversation. I LOLed.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:48 AM on July 21, 2015 [41 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:48 AM on July 21, 2015 [41 favorites]
Hm. Pool day sucks. I remember that Lileks used to complain about this stuff all the time back in the days before I found Achewood and Metafilter, when all I did online was page through pictures of regrettable food and kitschy postcards and matchbooks and arty photos of faded advertisements on the sides of buildings and blogposts kvetching about being the lone man in the after-preschool mommy'n'me group . And then came 9/11 and it was no longer possible to read "The Bleat."
posted by Don Pepino at 10:52 AM on July 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 10:52 AM on July 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
I was talking with my 75 year old mom and she said something about how my dad's job was to pick the thing he wanted and hers was to do all the steps to make that happen.
This. It reminds me of all those years when after my ex said he'd love for the family to have a relaxing vacation week in Truro, so I researched newspapers and then online, sent inquiries about vacations, made bookings, arranged pet sitting, packed for me and three kids, bought him a new bathing suit, mapped out a route to a summer house, ensured all the kids' favorite toys were with us, had surprise bags of coloring books and painting supplies and towels and beach blankets and SUNSCREEN and snacks and groceries for the week and you know, EVERYTHING to go on a week's vacation to the Cape, and how I was supposed to be SO goddamned thankful when my ex ONCE put some burgers on the grill, after I had to stop a beach day to pack everyone into the car to source charcoal. And burgers and buns and ketchup and onions.
Because he wanted a vacation and I had to do all the steps to make it happen.
And then I had the nerve to forget to get his craft beer.
posted by kinetic at 11:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [56 favorites]
This. It reminds me of all those years when after my ex said he'd love for the family to have a relaxing vacation week in Truro, so I researched newspapers and then online, sent inquiries about vacations, made bookings, arranged pet sitting, packed for me and three kids, bought him a new bathing suit, mapped out a route to a summer house, ensured all the kids' favorite toys were with us, had surprise bags of coloring books and painting supplies and towels and beach blankets and SUNSCREEN and snacks and groceries for the week and you know, EVERYTHING to go on a week's vacation to the Cape, and how I was supposed to be SO goddamned thankful when my ex ONCE put some burgers on the grill, after I had to stop a beach day to pack everyone into the car to source charcoal. And burgers and buns and ketchup and onions.
Because he wanted a vacation and I had to do all the steps to make it happen.
And then I had the nerve to forget to get his craft beer.
posted by kinetic at 11:24 AM on July 21, 2015 [56 favorites]
Second anecdote: for years, when she heard that my younger brother and I hadn't spoken for a couple months, my mother would call me and berate me, asking why I never called him. Finally, I asked her, "Mom, I'm curious -- do you ever call Michael and ask him why he doesn't call me?" Of course, she had not. Why not, I asked? She had no real answer for this.
The layers here are fascinating. If you focus on the unfairness aspect, it's easy to miss that your mom is not only asking for you to perform emotional labour unequally based on gender, she's also performing her own emotional labour by reminding you in the first place, and if she corrected the gender imbalance by reminding you both, she'd be taking on an even higher burden. One that neither you nor your brothers seem to want, but that she feels is necessary for whatever reasons.
I'm sure this layering of emotional labour (enforcing/training other people to perform emotional labour) happens in many other situations as well. Teaching your children emotional labour skills (and teaching them to be aware of gender imbalance there), figuring out how to ask your partner to increase their emotional labour without hurting their feelings, etc etc.
posted by randomnity at 11:30 AM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
The layers here are fascinating. If you focus on the unfairness aspect, it's easy to miss that your mom is not only asking for you to perform emotional labour unequally based on gender, she's also performing her own emotional labour by reminding you in the first place, and if she corrected the gender imbalance by reminding you both, she'd be taking on an even higher burden. One that neither you nor your brothers seem to want, but that she feels is necessary for whatever reasons.
I'm sure this layering of emotional labour (enforcing/training other people to perform emotional labour) happens in many other situations as well. Teaching your children emotional labour skills (and teaching them to be aware of gender imbalance there), figuring out how to ask your partner to increase their emotional labour without hurting their feelings, etc etc.
posted by randomnity at 11:30 AM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
stoneweaver: "Guess culture working at its best is everyone picking up and doing emotional labor for the people around them. This, obviously, can get perverted and oppressive when it becomes an obligation for some people to perform while others are exempted."
I think something that hasn't been touched on too much in the thread so far is that, given the right circumstances, doing emotional labor can be satisfying and rewarding, just like other kinds of labor. When it is appreciated and compensated, and done by choice rather than obligation, things like Eyebrows McGee replacing the chair her husband barks his shins on (somewhere upthread), or getting a bottle of wine and a warm bath ready for a spouse who has had a hard day can feel so good to do. I mean, it's what parenting is, to a large extent, right? Doing emotional (and other kinds of) labor for a child that gets compensated in snuggles and pride and fingerpainted portraits. I think it's great that we are beginning to identify that it is labor, and I'm so glad that women who have no interest in doing it are getting empowered to avoid it when possible and to demand compensation and appreciation when it is not, but I also think it is important to validate the choices of women who choose to do emotional labor and take pleasure in it.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:37 AM on July 21, 2015 [38 favorites]
I think something that hasn't been touched on too much in the thread so far is that, given the right circumstances, doing emotional labor can be satisfying and rewarding, just like other kinds of labor. When it is appreciated and compensated, and done by choice rather than obligation, things like Eyebrows McGee replacing the chair her husband barks his shins on (somewhere upthread), or getting a bottle of wine and a warm bath ready for a spouse who has had a hard day can feel so good to do. I mean, it's what parenting is, to a large extent, right? Doing emotional (and other kinds of) labor for a child that gets compensated in snuggles and pride and fingerpainted portraits. I think it's great that we are beginning to identify that it is labor, and I'm so glad that women who have no interest in doing it are getting empowered to avoid it when possible and to demand compensation and appreciation when it is not, but I also think it is important to validate the choices of women who choose to do emotional labor and take pleasure in it.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:37 AM on July 21, 2015 [38 favorites]
And then I had the nerve to forget to get his craft beer.
story so maddening it makes you want to fight with your own partner just out of solidarity.
posted by nadawi at 11:41 AM on July 21, 2015 [124 favorites]
story so maddening it makes you want to fight with your own partner just out of solidarity.
posted by nadawi at 11:41 AM on July 21, 2015 [124 favorites]
Like many, I've been reading through the thread for the past few days and feel like my whole worldview is shifting, and I am seeing things in a way that fit together like never before. It could not have come at a better time. My most important though non-romantic relationship has come to a wall literally just last week. The person who was so into me for two years has all but completely withdrawn his attentions in the last year, but still expects me to stay and do all the work, because after all, what's the big deal; he is just busy, or has to talk to other people, or needs time off, and I am just being irrational and taking up too much of his time anyway.
And there's this weird expectation, that I should only pay attention to his verbal declarations that he cares (dragged with effort like it's torture) and completely disregard what he does the other 99% of the time.
The validation from all your stories is immense.
And that's despite that I've always been one of those "non-women" littlewater describes, being half on the spectrum and half withdrawn and dissociated from childhood abuse; but it doesn't mean I don't do this stuff, only that I have to focus it on people that are my closest relationships - that's how little energy and ability I have to spare over holding myself up.
But apparently I am even more broken - because when I do expend this energy on my partner and it is not being reciprocated, in my naivete I bring it up - because maybe people have bad days, or are tired, or forgetful, or something, and surely if I gently say I've been hurt they will be so sorry and want to make sure that they're pulling their weight! And again and again I am shocked at the hostile reactions, like it's a deadly sin to make them feel bad for hurting me. I could never understand it until now. Because after all, I am a woman and if a man hurts me, that means I am oversensitive and need to get over myself; but when I raise the topic, then I am mean and unreasonable for holding onto grudges and need to get over myself.
You are all great and I think we will need a whole Crone Archipelago to fit us all in. (And then the whole world!)
I was on the fence about walking away from this wreck (in others' view, a stable partnership), thinking that maybe I wasn't forgiving enough, maybe I expect too much from people, maybe I think in black-and-white terms. But no, this is done. I can't live like this. I am leaving.
Will need margaritas to help me elaborate my exit strategy.
posted by Ender's Friend at 11:44 AM on July 21, 2015 [79 favorites]
And there's this weird expectation, that I should only pay attention to his verbal declarations that he cares (dragged with effort like it's torture) and completely disregard what he does the other 99% of the time.
The validation from all your stories is immense.
And that's despite that I've always been one of those "non-women" littlewater describes, being half on the spectrum and half withdrawn and dissociated from childhood abuse; but it doesn't mean I don't do this stuff, only that I have to focus it on people that are my closest relationships - that's how little energy and ability I have to spare over holding myself up.
But apparently I am even more broken - because when I do expend this energy on my partner and it is not being reciprocated, in my naivete I bring it up - because maybe people have bad days, or are tired, or forgetful, or something, and surely if I gently say I've been hurt they will be so sorry and want to make sure that they're pulling their weight! And again and again I am shocked at the hostile reactions, like it's a deadly sin to make them feel bad for hurting me. I could never understand it until now. Because after all, I am a woman and if a man hurts me, that means I am oversensitive and need to get over myself; but when I raise the topic, then I am mean and unreasonable for holding onto grudges and need to get over myself.
You are all great and I think we will need a whole Crone Archipelago to fit us all in. (And then the whole world!)
I was on the fence about walking away from this wreck (in others' view, a stable partnership), thinking that maybe I wasn't forgiving enough, maybe I expect too much from people, maybe I think in black-and-white terms. But no, this is done. I can't live like this. I am leaving.
Will need margaritas to help me elaborate my exit strategy.
posted by Ender's Friend at 11:44 AM on July 21, 2015 [79 favorites]
I am still reading all this, but I am booking a ticket to Crone Island right now. For reals. Please let's go there and have tacos and dance in the moonlight and be nice to each other.
posted by chatongriffes at 11:44 AM on July 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by chatongriffes at 11:44 AM on July 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
Tiny house village of nice people? I've been looking for land in southern New Mexico.
posted by answergrape at 11:49 AM on July 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by answergrape at 11:49 AM on July 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
This thread has been invaluable to me in the last few days. I'm nursing a badly bruised and leg and sprained knee, which I, of course, made worse by ignoring it, to keep on doing a shitload of emotional labour with a strongly physical component. Y'all have made it possible for me to simply lie in bed, with the leg elevated, to read and think about this thread, and put my own goddamn need to heal first. Thanks so much.
posted by skybluepink at 11:50 AM on July 21, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 11:50 AM on July 21, 2015 [19 favorites]
There is a real mix of happiness and sorrow and denial when you see someone you love getting something you never had.
My grandmother has straight up said to me that if she could do it over again, she would not have got married when she did or possibly ever. Of course she loves her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, but her husband she is pretty much over. When I last visited her, she explained that they each had a separate fun-money fund that paid in a set amount each month, with which they could choose to do whatever they pleased. My grandfather spends his monthly allowance betting on the ponies (I think he might be the bookie of their retirement community?), while my grandmother saves her money throughout the year to go on cruises with her girlfriends or travel to Europe with my aunt or something to experience the world with people she loves.
She was always a sort of distant grandmother when I was little, but as I've grown older she's shared more of her story. She essentially married to get away from her violent, quite poor German immigrant family in the mountains of North Carolina. She was prevented from seeking higher education. Her adult life was filled with raising three kids, choosing to work full-time as a department store tailor, and outings with extended family. In the past few years, we have all heard her say things she would never have said before, I think in large part because she has been able to carve herself a more equal role in her marriage after my grandfather's retirement. (I am a fan of when she talks smack about my grandpa, because he has turned into a real bump on a log in his old age.)
Grandma Faye does not try to enforce social roles on me. I think she might be all come over with vicarious relief when my partner changes the baby's diaper without me even having to ask, or when I feel comfortable enough to tell my father that his wrongness about some topic has to be, like, performance art or something because there's no way that fact got shared to him in that way by any credible source. She has seen her mother and sisters suffer and her daughters struggle through painful divorces. That she gets to experience that liberty in her own life, even if it is a bit belated, may help mitigate against the sorrow and denial. It seems like a relief to her to see that it might actually be getting better.
posted by palindromic at 11:51 AM on July 21, 2015 [47 favorites]
My grandmother has straight up said to me that if she could do it over again, she would not have got married when she did or possibly ever. Of course she loves her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, but her husband she is pretty much over. When I last visited her, she explained that they each had a separate fun-money fund that paid in a set amount each month, with which they could choose to do whatever they pleased. My grandfather spends his monthly allowance betting on the ponies (I think he might be the bookie of their retirement community?), while my grandmother saves her money throughout the year to go on cruises with her girlfriends or travel to Europe with my aunt or something to experience the world with people she loves.
She was always a sort of distant grandmother when I was little, but as I've grown older she's shared more of her story. She essentially married to get away from her violent, quite poor German immigrant family in the mountains of North Carolina. She was prevented from seeking higher education. Her adult life was filled with raising three kids, choosing to work full-time as a department store tailor, and outings with extended family. In the past few years, we have all heard her say things she would never have said before, I think in large part because she has been able to carve herself a more equal role in her marriage after my grandfather's retirement. (I am a fan of when she talks smack about my grandpa, because he has turned into a real bump on a log in his old age.)
Grandma Faye does not try to enforce social roles on me. I think she might be all come over with vicarious relief when my partner changes the baby's diaper without me even having to ask, or when I feel comfortable enough to tell my father that his wrongness about some topic has to be, like, performance art or something because there's no way that fact got shared to him in that way by any credible source. She has seen her mother and sisters suffer and her daughters struggle through painful divorces. That she gets to experience that liberty in her own life, even if it is a bit belated, may help mitigate against the sorrow and denial. It seems like a relief to her to see that it might actually be getting better.
posted by palindromic at 11:51 AM on July 21, 2015 [47 favorites]
I have a theory that women like me, Ender's Friend, and The Underpants Monster don't do lot of this emotional labor/nurturing broadly, but focus intense love on those we have time and energy to love.
I know everyone that is loved by me feels it hugely.
My heart is still breaking from when the Underpants Monster said her illness gives her "inability to nurture at all"."
NO. We just do as much as we can and love as hard as we can even if that means we're too sick/overworked/overwhelmed to display it in socially expected ways.
posted by littlewater at 11:52 AM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
I know everyone that is loved by me feels it hugely.
My heart is still breaking from when the Underpants Monster said her illness gives her "inability to nurture at all"."
NO. We just do as much as we can and love as hard as we can even if that means we're too sick/overworked/overwhelmed to display it in socially expected ways.
posted by littlewater at 11:52 AM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
Ender's Friend, I could've written that myself. And for me, too, this is coming up at exactly the right time, and I really feel I am successfully changing my behavior - in all kinds of relationships and interactions, not just romantic ones! The validation that comes from verbalizing all these things, giving them a name and a reason - instead of just dismissing them as my being irrational - is immense and so liberating. I feel whole.
Thank you so much everyone for sharing all these stories and feelings.
posted by Guelder at 11:52 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Thank you so much everyone for sharing all these stories and feelings.
posted by Guelder at 11:52 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
And there's this weird expectation, that I should only pay attention to his verbal declarations that he cares (dragged with effort like it's torture) and completely disregard what he does the other 99% of the time.
My partner thinks that saying "I love you" is an automatic fix and makes everything okay, and that the saying of it, or the fact of it, also obviates the need for any additional effort. It so does not magically make everything okay, and that misplaced belief that it does somehow magically just makes everything worse.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:02 PM on July 21, 2015 [30 favorites]
My partner thinks that saying "I love you" is an automatic fix and makes everything okay, and that the saying of it, or the fact of it, also obviates the need for any additional effort. It so does not magically make everything okay, and that misplaced belief that it does somehow magically just makes everything worse.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:02 PM on July 21, 2015 [30 favorites]
I think it's great that we are beginning to identify that it is labor, and I'm so glad that women who have no interest in doing it are getting empowered to avoid it when possible and to demand compensation and appreciation when it is not, but I also think it is important to validate the choices of women who choose to do emotional labor and take pleasure in it.
Speaking only for myself, I take great pleasure in performing emotional labor. But only when my efforts are acknowledged and appreciated. (They don't even have to be reciprocated a lot of the time! Just acknowledgment is enough!)
posted by gaspode at 12:05 PM on July 21, 2015 [20 favorites]
Speaking only for myself, I take great pleasure in performing emotional labor. But only when my efforts are acknowledged and appreciated. (They don't even have to be reciprocated a lot of the time! Just acknowledgment is enough!)
posted by gaspode at 12:05 PM on July 21, 2015 [20 favorites]
I've been spending so much time on this thread and thinking about it and talking to my partner about it that now when I read my book or watch TV the emotional labor (or lack of) just leaps out at me all out of proportion to the story. Once you see it you can never not see it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:11 PM on July 21, 2015 [66 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:11 PM on July 21, 2015 [66 favorites]
This thread has been making think a lot about my family, and about an exchange I had with my mom last Christmas as she was dropping me off at the airport. We were talking about my brother, and she said to me, "Make sure you stay in touch with your brother. He's going through a hard patch right now, and he really needs all of our help and support. So please write to him occasionally."
That's an encapsulation of my family dynamics: my mother thinks that my brother always needs help and that it's always my job to anticipate his needs and reach out and do whatever I can to help him, even though I'm just the younger sister. I love him a lot, but why is it my responsibility to take care of him and always reach out to him? Why is it not his responsibility, as an adult, to take care of himself and to ask for help?
I mean, I know why after this thread. So what I guess I really want to say is: it sort of sucks.
posted by colfax at 12:28 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
That's an encapsulation of my family dynamics: my mother thinks that my brother always needs help and that it's always my job to anticipate his needs and reach out and do whatever I can to help him, even though I'm just the younger sister. I love him a lot, but why is it my responsibility to take care of him and always reach out to him? Why is it not his responsibility, as an adult, to take care of himself and to ask for help?
I mean, I know why after this thread. So what I guess I really want to say is: it sort of sucks.
posted by colfax at 12:28 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
Dear All,
Like many others here I have lurked on metafilter for years, but this thread has prompted me to pay and join up. I hope to continue following and see where else we can go.
What an excellent discussion and an amazing place to be.
Thank you.
posted by sedimentary_deer at 12:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [68 favorites]
Like many others here I have lurked on metafilter for years, but this thread has prompted me to pay and join up. I hope to continue following and see where else we can go.
What an excellent discussion and an amazing place to be.
Thank you.
posted by sedimentary_deer at 12:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [68 favorites]
Speaking only for myself, I take great pleasure in performing emotional labor. But only when my efforts are acknowledged and appreciated.
Me too! It's one of my favorite things in the world to do something for someone that I know will make them feel better, or to take the first step on tackling a difficult situation, because it will make it easier on someone I love. At my birthday dinner this past month I had a lot more people turn up than anticipated (which was nice! I invited them all, I just didn't think they'd come), and when the server gave us the check at the end of the meal it wasn't divided and we couldn't flag him down again, so I spent 10 minutes asking everyone what they had and tallying up and organizing cards. Several people offered to do it for me instead ("It's your birthday!") but I was just so, so happy to do it, because all those people had come out to see me. I love doing stuff like that.... but I got to choose to do it, and wouldn't have been punished if I didn't.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [16 favorites]
Me too! It's one of my favorite things in the world to do something for someone that I know will make them feel better, or to take the first step on tackling a difficult situation, because it will make it easier on someone I love. At my birthday dinner this past month I had a lot more people turn up than anticipated (which was nice! I invited them all, I just didn't think they'd come), and when the server gave us the check at the end of the meal it wasn't divided and we couldn't flag him down again, so I spent 10 minutes asking everyone what they had and tallying up and organizing cards. Several people offered to do it for me instead ("It's your birthday!") but I was just so, so happy to do it, because all those people had come out to see me. I love doing stuff like that.... but I got to choose to do it, and wouldn't have been punished if I didn't.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [16 favorites]
also, hi sedimentary_deer! welcome to mefi!
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this thread has changed my life. So many things I've been carrying around with me, thinking I was broken and didn't know how to be a woman properly, didn't know how to have relationships (which is why I had the fuckload of therapy). And actually, seeing all these stories makes me realise it's not me. I'm not *that* broken. This is systemic. The boyfriend who wouldn't move into the city with me after telling me he would, because it was too easy to stay where he was living round the corner from his mum? Not because I specifically am too demanding and unreasonable after all. The boyfriend who made me stay up til 2am listening to his problems and woes but fell asleep when I told him mine? Not because I'm overly needy and whiny. I've been single for about 18 months because my last relationship was so terrible and heartbreaking, and I think I'm definitely heading for Crone Island but that's fine by me because it has been so hard to go through these supposed partnerships that haven't been partnerships at all.
And also now I know that maybe my friendships aren't as great as they could be because I'm probably not putting in enough of the emotional work (for lots of reasons that aren't necessarily as simple as 'I can't be bothered' although I'm sure that's in there). So I'm going to do more of that, and maybe I would have figured out I needed to do that eventually but this thread has got me there so much more quickly. This is so brilliant. I'm so glad to have been able to follow this (and all its associated threads).
posted by theseldomseenkid at 12:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [29 favorites]
And also now I know that maybe my friendships aren't as great as they could be because I'm probably not putting in enough of the emotional work (for lots of reasons that aren't necessarily as simple as 'I can't be bothered' although I'm sure that's in there). So I'm going to do more of that, and maybe I would have figured out I needed to do that eventually but this thread has got me there so much more quickly. This is so brilliant. I'm so glad to have been able to follow this (and all its associated threads).
posted by theseldomseenkid at 12:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [29 favorites]
I think it's great that we are beginning to identify that it is labor, and I'm so glad that women who have no interest in doing it are getting empowered to avoid it when possible and to demand compensation and appreciation when it is not, but I also think it is important to validate the choices of women who choose to do emotional labor and take pleasure in it.
I still think it's so weird that no men much or at all have talked about why they so clearly don't take pleasure in it. I mean, I know it's supposed to be a mostly women thread and men are well-advised not to drive by and yell "Not me for I am awesome!" or "Sucks to be you, women who married fratboys!" But now that so many of you have dutifully read the thread... what's your side? Is it something like when I'm standing in the kitchen clutching the fork surrounded by competent people and feeling like a barely socialized wolfchild? What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
Speaking only for myself, I take great pleasure in performing emotional labor. But only when my efforts are acknowledged and appreciated. (They don't even have to be reciprocated a lot of the time! Just acknowledgment is enough!)
Ditto, as I've said a time or two. The other thing is, this is work you cannot do as effectively for yourself. You can come home after a hard day and pour yourself a glass of wine and make yourself a yummy omelet and then draw yourself a bath and step in and settle down and say to yourself, "Self, you are loved. Here is proof." But it is much more convincing proof if someone else pours you the wine and makes the omelet for you while you sit in the kitchen and drink it and chat and then draws the bath for you and washes your back for you. And if you do those things for someone else it feels just as warm. Everybody feels so good, why wouldn't you want to do this all the time? It's far, far better paid back in kind than in money because you can't buy it. it can only be given.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:56 PM on July 21, 2015 [59 favorites]
I still think it's so weird that no men much or at all have talked about why they so clearly don't take pleasure in it. I mean, I know it's supposed to be a mostly women thread and men are well-advised not to drive by and yell "Not me for I am awesome!" or "Sucks to be you, women who married fratboys!" But now that so many of you have dutifully read the thread... what's your side? Is it something like when I'm standing in the kitchen clutching the fork surrounded by competent people and feeling like a barely socialized wolfchild? What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
Speaking only for myself, I take great pleasure in performing emotional labor. But only when my efforts are acknowledged and appreciated. (They don't even have to be reciprocated a lot of the time! Just acknowledgment is enough!)
Ditto, as I've said a time or two. The other thing is, this is work you cannot do as effectively for yourself. You can come home after a hard day and pour yourself a glass of wine and make yourself a yummy omelet and then draw yourself a bath and step in and settle down and say to yourself, "Self, you are loved. Here is proof." But it is much more convincing proof if someone else pours you the wine and makes the omelet for you while you sit in the kitchen and drink it and chat and then draws the bath for you and washes your back for you. And if you do those things for someone else it feels just as warm. Everybody feels so good, why wouldn't you want to do this all the time? It's far, far better paid back in kind than in money because you can't buy it. it can only be given.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:56 PM on July 21, 2015 [59 favorites]
I still think it's so weird that no men much or at all have talked about why they so clearly don't take pleasure in it. [...] What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
I'm not a dude, but my sense as an outside observer is that men are discouraged from taking pleasure in emotional labor because it's so widely understood as inextricable from womanhood itself, and thus seen/treated as a practice that is inherently emasculating when engaged in by any man, ever. So many men are openly ridiculed, if not outright physically and psychologically punished, for displaying any kind of "feminine" traits, and our culture explicitly AND implicitly codes emotional labor (emotion, period!) as one of the most "feminine" traits of all.
tl;dr - IBTP.
On a more uplifting note, hello and infinite high-fives to the new folks -- please swing around to mine for lots of mojitos after you've finished your traditional "Welcome to the Island" margarita! I just whipped up a big carafe of raspberry-mint simple syrup with some stuff I picked from my backyard garden and it is just SO crone-tastic. Once we've finished that off, we can whip up a batch of #notallmen-go coladas.
posted by divined by radio at 1:21 PM on July 21, 2015 [46 favorites]
I'm not a dude, but my sense as an outside observer is that men are discouraged from taking pleasure in emotional labor because it's so widely understood as inextricable from womanhood itself, and thus seen/treated as a practice that is inherently emasculating when engaged in by any man, ever. So many men are openly ridiculed, if not outright physically and psychologically punished, for displaying any kind of "feminine" traits, and our culture explicitly AND implicitly codes emotional labor (emotion, period!) as one of the most "feminine" traits of all.
tl;dr - IBTP.
On a more uplifting note, hello and infinite high-fives to the new folks -- please swing around to mine for lots of mojitos after you've finished your traditional "Welcome to the Island" margarita! I just whipped up a big carafe of raspberry-mint simple syrup with some stuff I picked from my backyard garden and it is just SO crone-tastic. Once we've finished that off, we can whip up a batch of #notallmen-go coladas.
posted by divined by radio at 1:21 PM on July 21, 2015 [46 favorites]
I agree with Divined by Radio that emotional labor, at least in US society, is so inextricably coded feminine that men are discouraged (at best) and punished (at worst) for an interest in it.
It makes me think about how women and men are supposed to react to children. Women must love children - all children. Even if we don't have any of our own, we are expected to shower attention on nieces, nephews, godchildren, and/or children of friends ("honorary nieces and nephews"). We are expected to say stuff like, "I don't have any children of my own but I LOVE KIDS anyway!" If you dislike children, or even are indifferent to them, you are unnatural, unwomanly, a harpy and a monster.
Men, on the other hand, should only love their own children or children of family or close friends. A man who loves children not related by blood - unless they are offspring of very close friends - is a creep, and suspected of nefarious motives. Men should only love a select few children, and definitely shouldn't try being a kindergarten teacher or anything. Only about 2% of kindergarten and preschool teachers are men.
I think that nurturing, caregiving, and emotional labor is the next big obstacle to conquer for gender equality - and I think it's just as important as getting women into career jobs was during the 70's.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:39 PM on July 21, 2015 [44 favorites]
It makes me think about how women and men are supposed to react to children. Women must love children - all children. Even if we don't have any of our own, we are expected to shower attention on nieces, nephews, godchildren, and/or children of friends ("honorary nieces and nephews"). We are expected to say stuff like, "I don't have any children of my own but I LOVE KIDS anyway!" If you dislike children, or even are indifferent to them, you are unnatural, unwomanly, a harpy and a monster.
Men, on the other hand, should only love their own children or children of family or close friends. A man who loves children not related by blood - unless they are offspring of very close friends - is a creep, and suspected of nefarious motives. Men should only love a select few children, and definitely shouldn't try being a kindergarten teacher or anything. Only about 2% of kindergarten and preschool teachers are men.
I think that nurturing, caregiving, and emotional labor is the next big obstacle to conquer for gender equality - and I think it's just as important as getting women into career jobs was during the 70's.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:39 PM on July 21, 2015 [44 favorites]
to take the first step on tackling a difficult situation
I think this is one of my main forms of emotional labor/love-giving! I am always the one to break the task down, or make the list, or open the box and start organizing the parts first. And I don't mind this wrangling-- I actually find it somewhat gratifying, because it means shit is getting done-- but only when it's acknowledged as work. If I didn't take the first step, none of this stuff would happen-- there would be no meal plan, the itinerary would be empty, the desk would not be built.
And again, I really really don't mind, but I do mind when "takes the first steps" and "does the difficult mental/intellectual work" is taken for granted as my province because I care more. Yes, I care that the new furniture gets assembled! Why would we buy it if we didn't care?? Everyone cares, I just did something about it.
This has been on my mind because my boyfriend used to do a lot of the quotidian, repetitive chores around the house, and this was so because I told him that if I was going to be the manager, I wasn't going to be out there on the floor with all the other workers (him). Either he could do the executive functions or he could do the labor functions, or we could split them evenly, but I wasn't going to split the labor evenly and quietly take on all the executive functions too.
Division of labor, bitch! Anyway, we've moved past that now and he's super engaged and remembers when we're out of hand soap and reminds me we need a birthday present for my nephew and cooks dinner with recipes he finds himself on the internet, and I'm super proud of him and I think he's actually the most feminist guy I know now. Yes, it did take a lot of emotional labor on my part to get us here-- it was struggle. And I think being loud about this shit and speaking up is part of the struggle, and it sucks that our "partners" are opposed to us in this struggle, but such is hetero womanhood. I am grateful that he cared enough in this world that strongly encourages him to reap the benefits of not caring.
I have said though that if we break up, I'm going to be single for a long-ass time, because I had energy for that shit when I was 20, but when I'm 30, I really don't know. When I'm 40? 50? Yea freakin' right. Meanwhile, he'll be a prize!
posted by easter queen at 1:40 PM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
I think this is one of my main forms of emotional labor/love-giving! I am always the one to break the task down, or make the list, or open the box and start organizing the parts first. And I don't mind this wrangling-- I actually find it somewhat gratifying, because it means shit is getting done-- but only when it's acknowledged as work. If I didn't take the first step, none of this stuff would happen-- there would be no meal plan, the itinerary would be empty, the desk would not be built.
And again, I really really don't mind, but I do mind when "takes the first steps" and "does the difficult mental/intellectual work" is taken for granted as my province because I care more. Yes, I care that the new furniture gets assembled! Why would we buy it if we didn't care?? Everyone cares, I just did something about it.
This has been on my mind because my boyfriend used to do a lot of the quotidian, repetitive chores around the house, and this was so because I told him that if I was going to be the manager, I wasn't going to be out there on the floor with all the other workers (him). Either he could do the executive functions or he could do the labor functions, or we could split them evenly, but I wasn't going to split the labor evenly and quietly take on all the executive functions too.
Division of labor, bitch! Anyway, we've moved past that now and he's super engaged and remembers when we're out of hand soap and reminds me we need a birthday present for my nephew and cooks dinner with recipes he finds himself on the internet, and I'm super proud of him and I think he's actually the most feminist guy I know now. Yes, it did take a lot of emotional labor on my part to get us here-- it was struggle. And I think being loud about this shit and speaking up is part of the struggle, and it sucks that our "partners" are opposed to us in this struggle, but such is hetero womanhood. I am grateful that he cared enough in this world that strongly encourages him to reap the benefits of not caring.
I have said though that if we break up, I'm going to be single for a long-ass time, because I had energy for that shit when I was 20, but when I'm 30, I really don't know. When I'm 40? 50? Yea freakin' right. Meanwhile, he'll be a prize!
posted by easter queen at 1:40 PM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
My vote for Crone Island theme song: Aretha Franklin, As Good To Me As I Am To You
So if there's going to be a Crone Island FM (or even just a playlist), St. Vincent's Cheerleader seems like it should be on there, too.
This struck me when subjected to the other Cheerleader currently on the blue; as SLoG said, once you see things through the lens of this thread, you can't unsee them (no more).
posted by progosk at 1:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
So if there's going to be a Crone Island FM (or even just a playlist), St. Vincent's Cheerleader seems like it should be on there, too.
This struck me when subjected to the other Cheerleader currently on the blue; as SLoG said, once you see things through the lens of this thread, you can't unsee them (no more).
posted by progosk at 1:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
!
!!!
So much more sense, now, divined by radio and Rosie M. Banks. They do a loving thing and get called a pussy or a mamma's boy or similar, all their young lives from the age of a month and a half. Whereas we get, "aaaaaw, innat sweeeeeet, she'll be a great little mother some day!" I mean, it's obvious, but. Did not see it. Thank you guys. My Crone Island hut has a disco treehouse and my signature drink is the gin-ginger-mint (hell of strong Jamaican ginger beer, fresh mint, high-end Dutch gin) for when you need a break from rum drinks. Please drop by whenever!
posted by Don Pepino at 1:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
!!!
So much more sense, now, divined by radio and Rosie M. Banks. They do a loving thing and get called a pussy or a mamma's boy or similar, all their young lives from the age of a month and a half. Whereas we get, "aaaaaw, innat sweeeeeet, she'll be a great little mother some day!" I mean, it's obvious, but. Did not see it. Thank you guys. My Crone Island hut has a disco treehouse and my signature drink is the gin-ginger-mint (hell of strong Jamaican ginger beer, fresh mint, high-end Dutch gin) for when you need a break from rum drinks. Please drop by whenever!
posted by Don Pepino at 1:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
> I still think it's so weird that no men much or at all have talked about why they so clearly don't take pleasure in it. ... What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
Well, I for one do take pleasure in it. I love thinking of something that will make my wife's life that little bit easier and doing it, and I long ago got over the residual male thing of expecting it to be noticed and appreciated (it often is, but if it goes unnoticed, that's perfectly OK, that's not what I was doing it for, and in fact it means that I do it enough it doesn't stand out, which is a good thing). The problem is that I was raised in a thoroughly patriarchal culture (postwar US variety), and I grew up never having to do a damn thing except go to school and be quiet when dad was resting (which he did a lot). My father was a classic Greatest Generation guy, keeping his emotions buttoned up and expressing his feelings for his family by giving us things and taking us on vacations; when he finally started saying "I love you" (awkwardly), it was after mom died and he was already in his eighties, but I was glad of it anyway. What I didn't realize until I was an adult was that he'd spent much of his adult life as a depressed alcoholic (be quiet, your father's resting!), another aspect of being a classic Greatest Generation guy.
My mother was wonderful at emotional labor, and I think genuinely loved it, but I'd sure be interested to see what she'd say if she could read this thread, since I'm sure dealing with my dad got pretty unrewarding after a while. At any rate, whatever initial grasp of it I had came from her, and the rest has come from a succession of women who have (god bless them) refused to put up with any strong-and-silent bullshit. My first serious girlfriend would not accept "Oh, nothing" as an answer, and if I was clearly upset or angry, she'd get the reason out of me, and I learned to be more aware of it and willing to share it. My first wife was a wild-eyed feminist who threw things at cars whose inhabitants catcalled her (one of the things that drew me to her); she was also not much good at emotional labor, and I was the one who kept our circle of friends together and did the hard work of reconciling them when (as was usually the case) one or more of them was not speaking to one or more of the others, or to her (they were a difficult bunch, and she was the most difficult). She once, after I put the phone down with an exhausted curse, having persuaded X to hang out with Y again, said "I honestly don't know how you can do that, but thank you," which I appreciated.
But none of that should be taken as "Oh, I'm so great at this," because I'm not. Hello, patriarchy! I'm better at it than a lot of guys, but I'm not nearly as good at it as most women, simply because I haven't had to be. I am in awe of the largely unappreciated work y'all put in every day keeping the human world from exploding into bile-filled monads, and this thread has helped me think about how to do better at it. I'm going to show my appreciation by going and calling my Aunt Marty right now; she was the one who sat on the sofa and yakked with the men and kids while the other women cleaned up after holiday dinners, and I finally understand clearly that it wasn't a matter of her being lazy and selfish (which I'm sure was a common opinion among the other women).
Also, like divined by radio said, a hearty welcome to the new folks! Keep the joint jumpin'!
posted by languagehat at 1:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [62 favorites]
Well, I for one do take pleasure in it. I love thinking of something that will make my wife's life that little bit easier and doing it, and I long ago got over the residual male thing of expecting it to be noticed and appreciated (it often is, but if it goes unnoticed, that's perfectly OK, that's not what I was doing it for, and in fact it means that I do it enough it doesn't stand out, which is a good thing). The problem is that I was raised in a thoroughly patriarchal culture (postwar US variety), and I grew up never having to do a damn thing except go to school and be quiet when dad was resting (which he did a lot). My father was a classic Greatest Generation guy, keeping his emotions buttoned up and expressing his feelings for his family by giving us things and taking us on vacations; when he finally started saying "I love you" (awkwardly), it was after mom died and he was already in his eighties, but I was glad of it anyway. What I didn't realize until I was an adult was that he'd spent much of his adult life as a depressed alcoholic (be quiet, your father's resting!), another aspect of being a classic Greatest Generation guy.
My mother was wonderful at emotional labor, and I think genuinely loved it, but I'd sure be interested to see what she'd say if she could read this thread, since I'm sure dealing with my dad got pretty unrewarding after a while. At any rate, whatever initial grasp of it I had came from her, and the rest has come from a succession of women who have (god bless them) refused to put up with any strong-and-silent bullshit. My first serious girlfriend would not accept "Oh, nothing" as an answer, and if I was clearly upset or angry, she'd get the reason out of me, and I learned to be more aware of it and willing to share it. My first wife was a wild-eyed feminist who threw things at cars whose inhabitants catcalled her (one of the things that drew me to her); she was also not much good at emotional labor, and I was the one who kept our circle of friends together and did the hard work of reconciling them when (as was usually the case) one or more of them was not speaking to one or more of the others, or to her (they were a difficult bunch, and she was the most difficult). She once, after I put the phone down with an exhausted curse, having persuaded X to hang out with Y again, said "I honestly don't know how you can do that, but thank you," which I appreciated.
But none of that should be taken as "Oh, I'm so great at this," because I'm not. Hello, patriarchy! I'm better at it than a lot of guys, but I'm not nearly as good at it as most women, simply because I haven't had to be. I am in awe of the largely unappreciated work y'all put in every day keeping the human world from exploding into bile-filled monads, and this thread has helped me think about how to do better at it. I'm going to show my appreciation by going and calling my Aunt Marty right now; she was the one who sat on the sofa and yakked with the men and kids while the other women cleaned up after holiday dinners, and I finally understand clearly that it wasn't a matter of her being lazy and selfish (which I'm sure was a common opinion among the other women).
Also, like divined by radio said, a hearty welcome to the new folks! Keep the joint jumpin'!
posted by languagehat at 1:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [62 favorites]
Count me in as someone who loves doing emotional labor if it's acknowledged. But omg, maybe one of the saddest things ever for me in relationships is when I do something and put a lot of effort into it and am so excited to do so because I just know it will make my partner feel so happy and loved - to do all that and then have the recipient literally not even notice or not say one word about it - omg. My heart just falls. I mean, it's like I can almost feel it falling. It makes me SO sad. This is also a big trope in movies. The wife who goes out of her way to make herself look nice or make a nice dinner and set the table or whatever, and she's so excited at the expectation of his reaction, and the husband just sweeps in and doesn't even see it and you see the wife's face fall. That never, ever fails to make me tear up. I'm tearing up just thinking about it. I don't know why this thing in particular makes me so sad, but it really, really does. It's just so hurtful.
posted by triggerfinger at 1:51 PM on July 21, 2015 [70 favorites]
posted by triggerfinger at 1:51 PM on July 21, 2015 [70 favorites]
If we're reccing songs for the inevitable Crone Island playlist, I nominate Elizabeth and the Catapault's Momma's Boy.
If you want a girl to be your mother,
go find another, go find another one
You only call me when you're down on your dollar
I'm not just a cover, not just a cover-up
posted by sciatrix at 1:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you want a girl to be your mother,
go find another, go find another one
You only call me when you're down on your dollar
I'm not just a cover, not just a cover-up
posted by sciatrix at 1:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you dislike children, or even are indifferent to them, you are unnatural, unwomanly, a harpy and a monster.
Oh god yes. I (child-free and at best completely indifferent to children) could throw in another dozen anecdotes about this one, but then I'd start cursing a lot and then my head might actually explode.
posted by holborne at 1:55 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
Oh god yes. I (child-free and at best completely indifferent to children) could throw in another dozen anecdotes about this one, but then I'd start cursing a lot and then my head might actually explode.
posted by holborne at 1:55 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
I love this new version of croney*ism!
posted by futz at 1:59 PM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by futz at 1:59 PM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
At Christmas, when I grumble about buying Christmas presents for everyone, people look at me funny. But when the guys at work talk about how their wives did all their shopping for them, including the nice bottle of wine they just gave me, no one bats an eye. Wow, to not have to worry about Christmas shopping ever, what a great fantasy...*slips off into dreamland*
posted by Melismata at 1:59 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 1:59 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
Actually--Collaborative playlist made, because I had Spotify open and this is apparently a thing you can do. Women have been singing poetry about this one for a long, long time.
posted by sciatrix at 2:00 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 2:00 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
I still think it's so weird that no men much or at all have talked about why they so clearly don't take pleasure in it... Is it something like when I'm standing in the kitchen clutching the fork surrounded by competent people and feeling like a barely socialized wolfchild? What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
Hmm, speaking only for myself, I don't know! I was raised by a single mother who taught me to pull my weight - 50% of the housework, doing the dishes, etc. But we never talked about emotional labor. In the abstract I know it's important to be caring and supportive, and that's all well and good. But it doesn't always extend to real world actions when I'm forced to leave my comfort zone and deviate from the path of least resistance. I've never encountered this concept of the unequal distribution of emotional labor, nor quite understood that I was lacking in this responsibility so drastically, until I came upon this thread. It's eye-opening. It's yet another area where we have the privilege of not seeing the problem. I'm happy I'm starting to become aware, though, thanks to everyone here. I'll keep this discussion close at hand as I navigate future and present relationships.
posted by naju at 2:01 PM on July 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
Hmm, speaking only for myself, I don't know! I was raised by a single mother who taught me to pull my weight - 50% of the housework, doing the dishes, etc. But we never talked about emotional labor. In the abstract I know it's important to be caring and supportive, and that's all well and good. But it doesn't always extend to real world actions when I'm forced to leave my comfort zone and deviate from the path of least resistance. I've never encountered this concept of the unequal distribution of emotional labor, nor quite understood that I was lacking in this responsibility so drastically, until I came upon this thread. It's eye-opening. It's yet another area where we have the privilege of not seeing the problem. I'm happy I'm starting to become aware, though, thanks to everyone here. I'll keep this discussion close at hand as I navigate future and present relationships.
posted by naju at 2:01 PM on July 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
I will add that I think the sentence "I love children" is kind of nonsensical in the same way as the sentence "I love adults" is nonsensical. (Same with "I dislike children" and for the same reason.) Of course, there are children I like fine and children I don't, just as there are adults I like fine and adults I don't. Pretty obvious, to me.
But of course, in most people's world, it's not nonsensical at all: it fits perfectly in with the idea that women all have baby lust because our wombs are necessarily bursting with the desire to give birth and raise a child. Thus, as a woman, of course I must "love children." The personality of the individual child isn't supposed to matter to me; it's just that I'm supposed to love the very idea of simply having children in my presence so that I finally have an vessel into which I can spill all my naturally maternal, nurturing feelings.
posted by holborne at 2:04 PM on July 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
But of course, in most people's world, it's not nonsensical at all: it fits perfectly in with the idea that women all have baby lust because our wombs are necessarily bursting with the desire to give birth and raise a child. Thus, as a woman, of course I must "love children." The personality of the individual child isn't supposed to matter to me; it's just that I'm supposed to love the very idea of simply having children in my presence so that I finally have an vessel into which I can spill all my naturally maternal, nurturing feelings.
posted by holborne at 2:04 PM on July 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
I've been raptly reading this thread for days but had to log in finally to respond to Don Pepino's question about why dudes don't like doing emotional labor tasks. I can't answer for him, but my boyfriend is very good at much of this stuff (something I never take for granted but have been SUPER ESPECIALLY INSANELY thankful for as I've been keeping up with this conversation), and I definitely observe how men are subtly, and of course unsubtly, discouraged from doing more. My closest female friend, a mutual friend to both of us for many years, routinely exclaims something along the lines of "oh man, he is the best lesbian!!" every time I detail to her something wonderful he has said or done. And she means that affectionately, as a compliment, but still the fact remains that she's saying he's a GIRL. (And that he's somehow even beyond that -- a lesbian -- because of how quickly he wanted us to move in together. We've been dating for six months and we rented a house together a few weeks ago.)
He is a grown man (44) and these comments don't seem to bother him, but I can understand how somebody younger, and/or with less understanding/acceptance of self, would feel bothered. In all honesty, I'm not sure what made him how he is, except that his dad died when he was 11 and so he too was effectively raised by a single mother. He has his moments (I definitely have LET ME GOOGLE THAT FOR YOU irritations sometimes) but on the whole he is kind and thoughtful and attentive and not afraid of looking like a delicate flower sometimes, despite being lightly teased, and being surrounded by a lot of men who are not that ... emotionally advanced.
posted by librarianjess at 2:09 PM on July 21, 2015 [26 favorites]
He is a grown man (44) and these comments don't seem to bother him, but I can understand how somebody younger, and/or with less understanding/acceptance of self, would feel bothered. In all honesty, I'm not sure what made him how he is, except that his dad died when he was 11 and so he too was effectively raised by a single mother. He has his moments (I definitely have LET ME GOOGLE THAT FOR YOU irritations sometimes) but on the whole he is kind and thoughtful and attentive and not afraid of looking like a delicate flower sometimes, despite being lightly teased, and being surrounded by a lot of men who are not that ... emotionally advanced.
posted by librarianjess at 2:09 PM on July 21, 2015 [26 favorites]
I'm not a dude, but my sense as an outside observer is that men are discouraged from taking pleasure in emotional labor because it's so widely understood as inextricable from womanhood itself, and thus seen/treated as a practice that is inherently emasculating when engaged in by any man, ever. So many men are openly ridiculed, if not outright physically and psychologically punished, for displaying any kind of "feminine" traits, and our culture explicitly AND implicitly codes emotional labor (emotion, period!) as one of the most "feminine" traits of all.
I wasn't going to bring this up because it seems really trivial in a thread filled with incredibly important stories, but when I first started reading this post a movie popped into my head, a movie that always disturbed me and I could not say why exactly except that the leading man is celebrated and applauded for being an asshole.
No Mercy (1986) stars Richard Gere as a tough undercover cop and Kim Basinger is the illiterate sex kitten he has saved from the bad guy. At the end of the movie when she is standing in the parking lot looking forlorn wondering what she is going to do next, he gives in to their smoldering sexual attraction and says "OK, you can move in with me. But I don't do flowers. I'm usually working on Christmas. And don't expect me to remember your birthday." or something to that effect...it's been almost 30 years ago since I saw the movie. And she happily runs into his arms. Cue the credits.
That ending single-handedly destroyed my pleasure in the movie. This incredibly selfish dick was happy to bed Basinger but boy she better not expect anything from him in return. I think we are supposed to nod our heads and give him a thumbs up-- he is a real man's man just telling it like it is. Funny how that little bit of dialog has stuck in my craw all these years.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:12 PM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
I wasn't going to bring this up because it seems really trivial in a thread filled with incredibly important stories, but when I first started reading this post a movie popped into my head, a movie that always disturbed me and I could not say why exactly except that the leading man is celebrated and applauded for being an asshole.
No Mercy (1986) stars Richard Gere as a tough undercover cop and Kim Basinger is the illiterate sex kitten he has saved from the bad guy. At the end of the movie when she is standing in the parking lot looking forlorn wondering what she is going to do next, he gives in to their smoldering sexual attraction and says "OK, you can move in with me. But I don't do flowers. I'm usually working on Christmas. And don't expect me to remember your birthday." or something to that effect...it's been almost 30 years ago since I saw the movie. And she happily runs into his arms. Cue the credits.
That ending single-handedly destroyed my pleasure in the movie. This incredibly selfish dick was happy to bed Basinger but boy she better not expect anything from him in return. I think we are supposed to nod our heads and give him a thumbs up-- he is a real man's man just telling it like it is. Funny how that little bit of dialog has stuck in my craw all these years.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:12 PM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
Also, this thread is excellent because it validates my choices over the years. It's great to have a name for the thing I have been feeling. My dating life has been very, very unsuccessful over the past 15 years, because 1) my dating profile (Metafilter approved) shows the strong woman that I am, and 2) When I actually do get a date (i.e., never, lately), I can see from the beginning that the guy is just looking for an emotional laborer. I am NOT too fussy, thank you very much, my instincts are right.
I think I learned this pretty early, in college: my mother said that while dating, she won my father over with her cooking. So I cooked for some of the guys in my dorm. They ate the food and continued to play their video games, never once even saying thank you. So much for that.
I wanted to contribute to the Askme feminist dating thread, but couldn't think of anything to say other than "yeah, good luck with that," so I stayed away.
Lots to think about. Thanks again, as always, Metafilter.
posted by Melismata at 2:13 PM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think I learned this pretty early, in college: my mother said that while dating, she won my father over with her cooking. So I cooked for some of the guys in my dorm. They ate the food and continued to play their video games, never once even saying thank you. So much for that.
I wanted to contribute to the Askme feminist dating thread, but couldn't think of anything to say other than "yeah, good luck with that," so I stayed away.
Lots to think about. Thanks again, as always, Metafilter.
posted by Melismata at 2:13 PM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
Secret Life of Gravy: " I think we are supposed to nod our heads and give him a thumbs up-- he is a real man's man just telling it like it is. Funny how that little bit of dialog has stuck in my craw all these years."
Now that you mention it, that happens all the time in films/TV/literature and it always bugs me too.
posted by Rock Steady at 2:18 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Now that you mention it, that happens all the time in films/TV/literature and it always bugs me too.
posted by Rock Steady at 2:18 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, and I am so sorry I can't recall who said it, but the words "generational ptsd" INSTANTLY explained so much about my family, and specifically, my relationship with my mother. Like, my mouth dropped open, and then I hit Google, and wow. I feel like I may have a way to frame my understanding of what has always, always, been wrong. Thank you so much.
posted by skybluepink at 2:25 PM on July 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 2:25 PM on July 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
And can I also just say thank you to everybody for validating my continued intense bitterness over a relationship that ended five years ago. I struggled with depression during the relationship and immediately following the breakup I was an absolute hot mess, a real disaster, because I assumed everything had been my fault. Once I realized, with the help of therapy, that I was unduly holding the bag, I got REAL ANGRY and have been ever since. But now I have a name for it!! A hundred thousand times during the course of our relationship he crapped the bed on the emotional labor front (being an hour late to our anniversary dinner and making me sit in the restaurant alone WITHOUT APOLOGY; never learning the names of my immediate family members because he 'had a bad memory' [write it down then, dick, you remember other stuff fine]; picking me mostly-dead lilacs from a public park when I shyly mentioned that I would love it if sometime he came home with flowers; telling me "I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't" another time and expecting it to be the same as if he had).
For a long time I thought I had been a terrible girlfriend because of how many times I asked him to do things / told him fruitlessly that he was hurting my feelings / etc but NOPE, he was just a terrible boyfriend who never bothered to expend the least bit of effort on the emotional labor involved in having a girlfriend. fuck that guy.
posted by librarianjess at 2:26 PM on July 21, 2015 [42 favorites]
For a long time I thought I had been a terrible girlfriend because of how many times I asked him to do things / told him fruitlessly that he was hurting my feelings / etc but NOPE, he was just a terrible boyfriend who never bothered to expend the least bit of effort on the emotional labor involved in having a girlfriend. fuck that guy.
posted by librarianjess at 2:26 PM on July 21, 2015 [42 favorites]
What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
I'm not "Average American Male" by any stretch (I'm the one that stays with the kids all day, does the cleaning and cooking, and the work I do is split evenly between music and part-time retail work), but I enjoy wide swaths it. I take pride in being a thoughtful host and get excited about giving gifts. I even enjoy a lot of the day-to-day logistics planning of parenting and family-ing in general.
But you know what? In order to get to the point where I can admit that without some sort of explanation, I had to overcome the fact that at least 1/3rd of my family thinks I'm a loser because I chose raising my kids to have a full time paying job or career, and think I'm less of a man because care about stuff like "hey it hurts my kids\wife\friends when I do X". Heck, I once got crap from a brother because I called home to let my wife know when I'd be home from fishing. Then there's the people whose opinions of me shift a little (for the worse) when they hear I'm a stay at home dad. I honestly don't think most of them are even aware of it. That sort of thing still can really sap any enjoyment out of it.
posted by Gygesringtone at 2:31 PM on July 21, 2015 [79 favorites]
I'm not "Average American Male" by any stretch (I'm the one that stays with the kids all day, does the cleaning and cooking, and the work I do is split evenly between music and part-time retail work), but I enjoy wide swaths it. I take pride in being a thoughtful host and get excited about giving gifts. I even enjoy a lot of the day-to-day logistics planning of parenting and family-ing in general.
But you know what? In order to get to the point where I can admit that without some sort of explanation, I had to overcome the fact that at least 1/3rd of my family thinks I'm a loser because I chose raising my kids to have a full time paying job or career, and think I'm less of a man because care about stuff like "hey it hurts my kids\wife\friends when I do X". Heck, I once got crap from a brother because I called home to let my wife know when I'd be home from fishing. Then there's the people whose opinions of me shift a little (for the worse) when they hear I'm a stay at home dad. I honestly don't think most of them are even aware of it. That sort of thing still can really sap any enjoyment out of it.
posted by Gygesringtone at 2:31 PM on July 21, 2015 [79 favorites]
at least 1/3rd of my family thinks I'm a loser because I chose raising my kids to have a full time paying job or career, and think I'm less of a man because care about stuff like "hey it hurts my kids\wife\friends when I do X". Heck, I once got crap from a brother because I called home to let my wife know when I'd be home from fishing.
This is toxic masculinity performance at its finest. I'm so sorry, Gygesringtone.
posted by KathrynT at 2:34 PM on July 21, 2015 [56 favorites]
This is toxic masculinity performance at its finest. I'm so sorry, Gygesringtone.
posted by KathrynT at 2:34 PM on July 21, 2015 [56 favorites]
Naju and Languagehat and Gygesringtone, everyone answering my question, thank you so much. Trying to understand it was making me crazy and now it's making all kinds of sense. I feel much, much less bad. Thank you thank you.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 2:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [16 favorites]
This thread has been so enlightening. I'm actually seeing more of myself in the "male" group here, contrary to my actual gender, and hearing people talk about why all this emotional labour is important, I'm feeling a little guilty for not making more of an effort to improve. Somehow I've escaped the pressure to learn these skills so far, very luckily because they absolutely aren't natural for me - very analytical/practical, ADHD-PI, introverted, independent
This is from way, way up-thread, but I just wanted to address the notion that emotional labor is somehow the opposite of being analytical, practical, and/or independent. That idea seems born of the insidious stereotype that women are these emotional, helpless creatures who need the help and protection of the menfolk with their rational minds and practical ways.
In my experience, performing emotional labor day in and day out takes a lot of analytical, practical, intellectual skills. Just read all of the stories in this thread from women detailing the ways they've silently, invisibly performed emotional labor on behalf of their families (and others). One great example is the idea that a man says what he wants done, and the woman then figures out all of the intricate details to make that thing happen (including a million logistical things that never cross the man's mind).
Thank you to everyone who has been sharing their stories; this thread has been a revelation in a lot of ways. I see myself, my mother, and so many other women I know in so many of the stories.
posted by JenMarie at 2:59 PM on July 21, 2015 [77 favorites]
This is from way, way up-thread, but I just wanted to address the notion that emotional labor is somehow the opposite of being analytical, practical, and/or independent. That idea seems born of the insidious stereotype that women are these emotional, helpless creatures who need the help and protection of the menfolk with their rational minds and practical ways.
In my experience, performing emotional labor day in and day out takes a lot of analytical, practical, intellectual skills. Just read all of the stories in this thread from women detailing the ways they've silently, invisibly performed emotional labor on behalf of their families (and others). One great example is the idea that a man says what he wants done, and the woman then figures out all of the intricate details to make that thing happen (including a million logistical things that never cross the man's mind).
Thank you to everyone who has been sharing their stories; this thread has been a revelation in a lot of ways. I see myself, my mother, and so many other women I know in so many of the stories.
posted by JenMarie at 2:59 PM on July 21, 2015 [77 favorites]
Yes, absolutely, JenMarie. I caught myself in my last comment conflating "emotional labor" and "intellectual/mental work" and realized that most of the time, they're actually the same. EQ helps a lot to aid proficiency, but most women (regardless of their EQ) don't escape the mandate to do the invisible intellectual and pragmatic work.
posted by easter queen at 3:12 PM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 3:12 PM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
I still think it's so weird that no men much or at all have talked about why they so clearly don't take pleasure in it... Is it something like when I'm standing in the kitchen clutching the fork surrounded by competent people and feeling like a barely socialized wolfchild? What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
I'm not a guy, but as I mentioned upthread, I am pretty terrible at a lot of the family-related emotional labor, and I have to work hard to do a lot of the household-running and present-buying stuff when I know that if I don't do it, no one will. There is no time where doing it makes me feel good, though having the work acknowledged at least gives me the joy of having done it. Anyhow, if it helps, I'm guessing my thinking pattern is pretty typical for people who don't do it, male or female.
To quote the late great Douglas Adams: "An SEP [Somebody Else's Problem field] is something we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem.... The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot. If you look at it directly you won't see it unless you know precisely what it is. Your only hope is to catch it by surprise out of the corner of your eye... it relies on people's natural disposition not to see anything they don't want to, weren't expecting, or can't explain." You see that you just used the last of the toilet paper (you're not dumb). Your brain registers that this is a problem. But it's not an immediate problem, and it's a problem for the hypothetical next person, not for you. So you file it away into a SEP, probably with half your brain saying "yeah, I'll grab another roll and put it on when I finish," and part of your brain going "and if I forget to do it, the next person will get it, what's the big deal, it's just grabbing a roll of toilet paper." Now obviously, I actually do change the damn toilet paper - even if I'm only in there to use the sink and wasn't the one who used the last of the paper - because the next person in my house on that toilet will not be a hypothetical person, it will be a real person and most likely a person I love. And I do it at work because I dunno, Kant's Categorical Imperative plus it's the right thing to do -- even though some weeks it seems I am the only woman at my workplace who ever does so (WTF - but it's more proof, I think, that this really isn't a cut-and-dried men vs. women thing).
I think the thinking really is as simple as "I am bad at X, other people are good at X, therefore I will leave X to them." Which often is accompanied by the assumption that people who are good at X actually enjoy it. Which is possibly true for some people, and some variations of X. But when I ask my son to help empty the dishwasher or some other chore and he responds "I don't want to," or "I don't feel like it," my response is always, ALWAYS, "Nobody likes it. But it has to get done." To me that is the insidious thinking that has to be overcome -- that somewhere out there is the Helping Fairy who enjoys washing dishes and cleaning up pee and making sure there's always milk in the fridge, and who rushes in to do so because it's fun for her.
As MonkeyToes put it (and divined_by_radio called out already upthread): Folks, there are no motherfucking gnomes. Sorry to repeat it - but I suspect it bears a lot of repeating.
posted by Mchelly at 3:23 PM on July 21, 2015 [42 favorites]
I'm not a guy, but as I mentioned upthread, I am pretty terrible at a lot of the family-related emotional labor, and I have to work hard to do a lot of the household-running and present-buying stuff when I know that if I don't do it, no one will. There is no time where doing it makes me feel good, though having the work acknowledged at least gives me the joy of having done it. Anyhow, if it helps, I'm guessing my thinking pattern is pretty typical for people who don't do it, male or female.
To quote the late great Douglas Adams: "An SEP [Somebody Else's Problem field] is something we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem.... The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot. If you look at it directly you won't see it unless you know precisely what it is. Your only hope is to catch it by surprise out of the corner of your eye... it relies on people's natural disposition not to see anything they don't want to, weren't expecting, or can't explain." You see that you just used the last of the toilet paper (you're not dumb). Your brain registers that this is a problem. But it's not an immediate problem, and it's a problem for the hypothetical next person, not for you. So you file it away into a SEP, probably with half your brain saying "yeah, I'll grab another roll and put it on when I finish," and part of your brain going "and if I forget to do it, the next person will get it, what's the big deal, it's just grabbing a roll of toilet paper." Now obviously, I actually do change the damn toilet paper - even if I'm only in there to use the sink and wasn't the one who used the last of the paper - because the next person in my house on that toilet will not be a hypothetical person, it will be a real person and most likely a person I love. And I do it at work because I dunno, Kant's Categorical Imperative plus it's the right thing to do -- even though some weeks it seems I am the only woman at my workplace who ever does so (WTF - but it's more proof, I think, that this really isn't a cut-and-dried men vs. women thing).
I think the thinking really is as simple as "I am bad at X, other people are good at X, therefore I will leave X to them." Which often is accompanied by the assumption that people who are good at X actually enjoy it. Which is possibly true for some people, and some variations of X. But when I ask my son to help empty the dishwasher or some other chore and he responds "I don't want to," or "I don't feel like it," my response is always, ALWAYS, "Nobody likes it. But it has to get done." To me that is the insidious thinking that has to be overcome -- that somewhere out there is the Helping Fairy who enjoys washing dishes and cleaning up pee and making sure there's always milk in the fridge, and who rushes in to do so because it's fun for her.
As MonkeyToes put it (and divined_by_radio called out already upthread): Folks, there are no motherfucking gnomes. Sorry to repeat it - but I suspect it bears a lot of repeating.
posted by Mchelly at 3:23 PM on July 21, 2015 [42 favorites]
In my experience, performing emotional labor day in and day out takes a lot of analytical, practical, intellectual skills.
In my experience, performing emotional labor day in and day out takes a lot of analytical, practical, intellectual skills.
Quoted twice for truth.
posted by Thella at 3:30 PM on July 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
In my experience, performing emotional labor day in and day out takes a lot of analytical, practical, intellectual skills.
Quoted twice for truth.
posted by Thella at 3:30 PM on July 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
This is toxic masculinity performance at its finest. I'm so sorry, Gygesringtone.
Honestly, compared to the rest of the stories here, it's not that bad. I mean, it sucks, but they're family I don't like much anyway, and there's no pressure on me from others in the family to care about the jerks' feelings. Plus I've got a super supportive spouse and other relatives.
I can't imagine that I'd be nearly as resilient as all the women that have shared (or not) here and all of those in my life, have been under the pressures they have faced and continue to face. My respect for all of you knows no bounds.
(I'm going back to quietly listening now)
posted by Gygesringtone at 3:30 PM on July 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Honestly, compared to the rest of the stories here, it's not that bad. I mean, it sucks, but they're family I don't like much anyway, and there's no pressure on me from others in the family to care about the jerks' feelings. Plus I've got a super supportive spouse and other relatives.
I can't imagine that I'd be nearly as resilient as all the women that have shared (or not) here and all of those in my life, have been under the pressures they have faced and continue to face. My respect for all of you knows no bounds.
(I'm going back to quietly listening now)
posted by Gygesringtone at 3:30 PM on July 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Wow, this thread (in addition to the article) has really brought into focus some things that didn't feel right in my relationships. I will relate one event which, despite having already discussed in therapy, was still opaque to me until this moment.
Last year my mother-in-law had open heart surgery in a hospital near where I live. A few days beforehand, she asked the local family members (her two sons and their wives, myself and my sister-in-law) if any of us would be willing to accompany her and my father-in-law to the hospital and keep him company during the day-long surgery. The others all said no, that it would be too hard to get off work, that they had a 3 month old to take care of (sister-in-law). I wasn't working that day and I felt bad for my father-in-law so I agreed to go. Later my husband decided he could manage to take off work and come along because by being the only one to volunteer I made him look bad.
It was a long day, but fortunately everything went great and my mother-in-law is healthy and active again. She was the only one who thanked me for coming. Not only did my father-in-law never ask for support himself, he never acknowledged it (nor the fact that I played multiple rounds of scrabble with him, a game I heartily despise). And I haven't really come to terms with the fact that their two sons, when directly asked for support, were unwilling to do that work.
posted by ungratefulninja at 3:41 PM on July 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
Last year my mother-in-law had open heart surgery in a hospital near where I live. A few days beforehand, she asked the local family members (her two sons and their wives, myself and my sister-in-law) if any of us would be willing to accompany her and my father-in-law to the hospital and keep him company during the day-long surgery. The others all said no, that it would be too hard to get off work, that they had a 3 month old to take care of (sister-in-law). I wasn't working that day and I felt bad for my father-in-law so I agreed to go. Later my husband decided he could manage to take off work and come along because by being the only one to volunteer I made him look bad.
It was a long day, but fortunately everything went great and my mother-in-law is healthy and active again. She was the only one who thanked me for coming. Not only did my father-in-law never ask for support himself, he never acknowledged it (nor the fact that I played multiple rounds of scrabble with him, a game I heartily despise). And I haven't really come to terms with the fact that their two sons, when directly asked for support, were unwilling to do that work.
posted by ungratefulninja at 3:41 PM on July 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
JenMarie: absolutely did not intend to imply that emotional work is in any way contradicted by being analytical or practical or independent, sorry for my crappy phrasing. I was only talking about my own experience, and I struggled to find the right words to describe why emotional labour stuff didn't (and often still doesn't) occur to me, and why I have a tendency to devalue many forms of emotional labor that I don't care about receiving myself, for example. "Analytical" was an overly-positive way of describing my spock-like tendency to ignore the value of emotions when making decisions, and to dismiss people's hurt feelings if their reaction seems illogical to me (yes its shitty and I'm working on it. FWIW I tick off pretty much every box on the Aspergers checklist, but I hesitated to mention that since I have no plans to pursue formal diagnosis). "Independent" was an overly-positive way of saying I tend to look out for myself, don't expect or want help, and rarely offer it to others. Self-centered or loner might be a more honest description, I guess.
Now that you've pointed it out I can see that I explained that poorly, and I'm sorry for giving the impression that emotional labour isn't done by analytical/independent/etc people, because that is definitely not true!
posted by randomnity at 4:01 PM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
Now that you've pointed it out I can see that I explained that poorly, and I'm sorry for giving the impression that emotional labour isn't done by analytical/independent/etc people, because that is definitely not true!
posted by randomnity at 4:01 PM on July 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have finally reached the end of this thread (for now) after 3 days of intermittent reading, and I feel emotionally drained. Thank you to everyone sharing stories and building vocabulary that's changed how I think about these issues.
I grew up in a home with really fantastic division of household labor and in some cases emotional labor. My dad did all of the cooking and dinner cleanup when we were growing up; now they've switched, and mom cooks, he has cleaning responsibilities for the entire house. Things like Christmas cards I remember them sitting down in early December to split 50/50, but I don't know how they got to that place - certainly neither of them grew up with that division of effort. Most parental conflicts were deliberately discussed away from us kids (my parents instituted post-dinner walks in our teenage years for just this purpose), but one of the recurring conflicts I can remember from when I was really little was how quietly upset my dad would get over my mom's attempt to bend over backwards getting everything just right for our extended family get-togethers.
I think part of why he was mad was how much energy it took out of her, but part of it was that he's never felt they've appreciated how much effort my mom puts into family events, while also managing her own kids' holiday experiences, her full-time job running her own consulting company, etc. "Don't be a martyr," I can hear him insisting to her in trying-not-to-let-the-kids-hear tones in my head. And he was right, but he wasn't right. He understands how much she values performing that emotional labor, and he tries to help with it, but he still gets righteously indignant at my extended family for not appreciating my mom, feels that they're not always worth that much effort, and then his indignation becomes another thing my mom has to manage. Overall though, I feel like my folks were pretty okay role models.
In my own marriage, it's such a mixed bag. I came in with the expectations of 50/50 labor division from my own upbringing. He came in as the 20-something son of a stay at home mom in a very gender-stratified, white glove Southern small town atmosphere. The fact that we met each other very young is a mixed bag, but overall helpful - he's changed by necessity, and I've developed enough self esteem and understanding to speak up for myself as opposed to just assuming that he'd grow out of his default egocentricism and blindness to how much actual work is involved in everyday life. And he's transformed his attitude and assumptions on many fronts, with no resentment, and I love him for that. And yet. And yet. The teeth-pulling on his jumbled anxiety and procrastination about gift-giving. The number of times we have fights where I ask him to just pay some attention to things that need to be done, to just put some effort, any effort, doesn't matter what he even does, into helping fight entropy - emotional or physical - in our lives together. The number of times that request is met with "just tell me what to do and I'll do it!" - and that's considered an improvement, by both of us.
Don't expect your partner to be the keeper of all knowable facts
And this, oh my god. I finally resolved to insist he read this thread in its entirety last night. Husband was in the bath, I was reading this exact thread on MeFi when I hear splashing, unidentified other sounds, and the sound of him half opening the bathroom door and calling from the other room. I go over, wondering what's up (are we out of towels? we'll both go run find the other a dry towel if we belatedly realize there are no towels in the bathroom), and he's standing naked in front of the the tub, doors to the bathroom cabinets open, next to his glasses, which are still sitting on the bathroom sink.
"I can't find the soap," he informed me helplessly, squinting as those of us not legally allowed to drive cars without prescription lenses do. I glanced left at the counter where he'd left his glasses, directly above the open cabinet with the shelf that holds whatever's left from the Costco trip months back where I got something like 20 bars of his preferred brand of soap. "Did you look?" I asked in a calculated, trying not to be too dismissive tone, simultaneously hoping and yet not hoping that perhaps we'd used all the Costco soap, making this at least a problem nominally worthy of my immediate attention. "Yes," he informed me, with what sounded like indignant dripping. I crouched down, looked all into the cabinet. And of course there were soap boxes, unobstructed visually, just all the way at the back of the cabinet. Of course there were. "Did it occur to you to look with your glasses on?" I asked, modulating my tone from I'd-like-to-throw-this-soap-at-your-face to standard-issue-incredulousness. "No. But I tried! I tried to look!"
Babe, if you made it this far, I know you're not comfortable with me sharing stories of you naked and helpless on the internet, but if you don't want me to, don't give me such good material. Keep reading the thread and we can buy each other drinks and talk about how we can both adult better (because damn, this thread has given me all kinds of thoughts for myself as well), and how often I get to vacation on Crone Island.
posted by deludingmyself at 4:05 PM on July 21, 2015 [76 favorites]
I grew up in a home with really fantastic division of household labor and in some cases emotional labor. My dad did all of the cooking and dinner cleanup when we were growing up; now they've switched, and mom cooks, he has cleaning responsibilities for the entire house. Things like Christmas cards I remember them sitting down in early December to split 50/50, but I don't know how they got to that place - certainly neither of them grew up with that division of effort. Most parental conflicts were deliberately discussed away from us kids (my parents instituted post-dinner walks in our teenage years for just this purpose), but one of the recurring conflicts I can remember from when I was really little was how quietly upset my dad would get over my mom's attempt to bend over backwards getting everything just right for our extended family get-togethers.
I think part of why he was mad was how much energy it took out of her, but part of it was that he's never felt they've appreciated how much effort my mom puts into family events, while also managing her own kids' holiday experiences, her full-time job running her own consulting company, etc. "Don't be a martyr," I can hear him insisting to her in trying-not-to-let-the-kids-hear tones in my head. And he was right, but he wasn't right. He understands how much she values performing that emotional labor, and he tries to help with it, but he still gets righteously indignant at my extended family for not appreciating my mom, feels that they're not always worth that much effort, and then his indignation becomes another thing my mom has to manage. Overall though, I feel like my folks were pretty okay role models.
In my own marriage, it's such a mixed bag. I came in with the expectations of 50/50 labor division from my own upbringing. He came in as the 20-something son of a stay at home mom in a very gender-stratified, white glove Southern small town atmosphere. The fact that we met each other very young is a mixed bag, but overall helpful - he's changed by necessity, and I've developed enough self esteem and understanding to speak up for myself as opposed to just assuming that he'd grow out of his default egocentricism and blindness to how much actual work is involved in everyday life. And he's transformed his attitude and assumptions on many fronts, with no resentment, and I love him for that. And yet. And yet. The teeth-pulling on his jumbled anxiety and procrastination about gift-giving. The number of times we have fights where I ask him to just pay some attention to things that need to be done, to just put some effort, any effort, doesn't matter what he even does, into helping fight entropy - emotional or physical - in our lives together. The number of times that request is met with "just tell me what to do and I'll do it!" - and that's considered an improvement, by both of us.
Don't expect your partner to be the keeper of all knowable facts
And this, oh my god. I finally resolved to insist he read this thread in its entirety last night. Husband was in the bath, I was reading this exact thread on MeFi when I hear splashing, unidentified other sounds, and the sound of him half opening the bathroom door and calling from the other room. I go over, wondering what's up (are we out of towels? we'll both go run find the other a dry towel if we belatedly realize there are no towels in the bathroom), and he's standing naked in front of the the tub, doors to the bathroom cabinets open, next to his glasses, which are still sitting on the bathroom sink.
"I can't find the soap," he informed me helplessly, squinting as those of us not legally allowed to drive cars without prescription lenses do. I glanced left at the counter where he'd left his glasses, directly above the open cabinet with the shelf that holds whatever's left from the Costco trip months back where I got something like 20 bars of his preferred brand of soap. "Did you look?" I asked in a calculated, trying not to be too dismissive tone, simultaneously hoping and yet not hoping that perhaps we'd used all the Costco soap, making this at least a problem nominally worthy of my immediate attention. "Yes," he informed me, with what sounded like indignant dripping. I crouched down, looked all into the cabinet. And of course there were soap boxes, unobstructed visually, just all the way at the back of the cabinet. Of course there were. "Did it occur to you to look with your glasses on?" I asked, modulating my tone from I'd-like-to-throw-this-soap-at-your-face to standard-issue-incredulousness. "No. But I tried! I tried to look!"
Babe, if you made it this far, I know you're not comfortable with me sharing stories of you naked and helpless on the internet, but if you don't want me to, don't give me such good material. Keep reading the thread and we can buy each other drinks and talk about how we can both adult better (because damn, this thread has given me all kinds of thoughts for myself as well), and how often I get to vacation on Crone Island.
posted by deludingmyself at 4:05 PM on July 21, 2015 [76 favorites]
Now that you've pointed it out I can see that I explained that poorly, and I'm sorry for giving the impression that emotional labour isn't done by analytical/independent/etc people, because that is definitely not true!
Hi randomnity, sorry I didn't mean to zero in on one thing you wrote and leave some kind of zinger or burn. I can see by other things you've written that you are thoughtful and interested in understanding and sharing your own experiences. I just pulled out one portion of your comment because it spoke to me in a larger, more general/societal level, and I didn't mean it as a personal comment about you.
posted by JenMarie at 4:13 PM on July 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
Hi randomnity, sorry I didn't mean to zero in on one thing you wrote and leave some kind of zinger or burn. I can see by other things you've written that you are thoughtful and interested in understanding and sharing your own experiences. I just pulled out one portion of your comment because it spoke to me in a larger, more general/societal level, and I didn't mean it as a personal comment about you.
posted by JenMarie at 4:13 PM on July 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
My father is a perfect model of "Emotional Labor Isn't A Thing, And I'm Going To Do Manly Things Over Here Now." When my mom can't cook he eats toast. (Is buttering toast too much? I'm pretty amazed that he thinks to put it in the toaster, come to think of it.) I grew up with the whole women-clear-the-table thing while the men go over to the bar and drink expensive scotches. Every time my mom talks about her day I get drained just hearing her list off the tasks she did before my dad wakes up. And it doesn't help that my grandmother (dad's side) is living with them now and he's her perfect son and I know they've had INCREDIBLE fights about how my mom needs to take care of him and never voice a single goddamn complaint. So.
Going into my marriage, I swore to myself that I would not live that life. I grew up angry and resentful, and this was NOT going to happen to me and my partner. My eyes were open, I knew what I wanted, and this was not fucking it.
And I cannot understand how it happened to me anyway. It just... it felt so easy, falling into that pattern little by little. Of course I love this person, let me make their day easier! I'm naturally good at organizing, I'll just keep track of this one more thing! I actually enjoy a part of this activity, might as well take it over! And here I am just five years down the line in my (first and hopefully only) marriage wanting to break down and cry because I feel like I sabotaged myself.
There is so much pent up fear, and I'm having a hard time sorting out how much of it is justified and how much might actually be anger and how do I go about expressing it and the base of it is I am so afraid that nothing will change. And I am so afraid that I will reach out and be vulnerable and express this deep-seated NEED to the one person I love above all else in this world, and find nothing in return.
I mean I linked to this thread, we had an amazing conversation together that I felt so good about, and just minutes ago I realized that I've fallen back in charge of making sure our fridge is stocked and dinner options are laid out and grocery runs are planned. He finally vacuums once a week, and last time he noticed that it needs a new filter and won't function without one. And then he put the vacuum away, until his helpful reminder app on his phone buzzes tomorrow for his vacuuming task and he realizes he won't be able to do it because filter and I'm sitting here going "Should I just order it...? He's clearly forgotten, I'm already thinking about, vacuuming needs to get done..."
I'm so tired.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:39 PM on July 21, 2015 [99 favorites]
Going into my marriage, I swore to myself that I would not live that life. I grew up angry and resentful, and this was NOT going to happen to me and my partner. My eyes were open, I knew what I wanted, and this was not fucking it.
And I cannot understand how it happened to me anyway. It just... it felt so easy, falling into that pattern little by little. Of course I love this person, let me make their day easier! I'm naturally good at organizing, I'll just keep track of this one more thing! I actually enjoy a part of this activity, might as well take it over! And here I am just five years down the line in my (first and hopefully only) marriage wanting to break down and cry because I feel like I sabotaged myself.
There is so much pent up fear, and I'm having a hard time sorting out how much of it is justified and how much might actually be anger and how do I go about expressing it and the base of it is I am so afraid that nothing will change. And I am so afraid that I will reach out and be vulnerable and express this deep-seated NEED to the one person I love above all else in this world, and find nothing in return.
I mean I linked to this thread, we had an amazing conversation together that I felt so good about, and just minutes ago I realized that I've fallen back in charge of making sure our fridge is stocked and dinner options are laid out and grocery runs are planned. He finally vacuums once a week, and last time he noticed that it needs a new filter and won't function without one. And then he put the vacuum away, until his helpful reminder app on his phone buzzes tomorrow for his vacuuming task and he realizes he won't be able to do it because filter and I'm sitting here going "Should I just order it...? He's clearly forgotten, I'm already thinking about, vacuuming needs to get done..."
I'm so tired.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:39 PM on July 21, 2015 [99 favorites]
OH LORD Y'ALL.
I was thinking I didn't really have anything to say. Because I am *loving* being single these days. Crone Island is fantastic, the water is warm, the drinks are refreshing, and the company can't be beat.
And then....
part the first
I read this and had to share a story that just cemented that I made the right decision when I chose to break things off with the man I had thought I was going to marry, a couple of years ago now.
He does not make friends of his own. The few friends that he has, he has because I talked to them first... When I want to do things with my friends, he wants to be included. When I want to do things with my friends and I don't want him along, he sulks. And when he's upset with me and fussing because he doesn't have the same kind of relationship with my friends that I do, he refuses to understand that it's because I have done ALL the work of maintaining those relationships, and he has done none. When he's feeling especially sorry for himself, he complains that if we ever split up, he wouldn't have any friends any more, and that my friends would be right there to help me move out. Well, duh. That's because I'm the one who makes plans with them, talks to them about everything and nothing, makes them feel welcome and happy in my home when they visit.
SO MUCH THIS. When I ended things with the gentleman mentioned above (who was in many ways a decent partner), this was his demand during the final conversation:
1. I was to contact our mutual friends (people he had previously raged at me about how they preferred me, which was true, because I did all of the emotional labor to maintain our social circle).
2. I was to tell them that he needed support, and exhort them to provide this support.
3. I was to do this with the understanding that a) "he wasn't going to call me a bitch, but it's not like he would be able to get the support he needed if he didn't tell them the truth about me" and b) I'd probably lose their friendship when they understood how terrible I am.
4. No, he couldn't just reach out himself, and why on earth would I suggest that maybe that was his to deal with?
I recognized this as absurdly unhealthy, don't you worry. But because I cared for him, I did make sure that all of our friends had his email address in case they wanted to reach out. From what I heard later, another friend did reach out to him, and got a tongue-lashing in response. I'm still quite close to this general circle of folks myself, largely because I continue to reach out and maintain the relationships.
part the second
I keep thinking about the connections folks are trying to make to ask vs. guess, which is a construct I have loved since tangerine first described it, though I'll admit I think it's widely over-applied hereabouts anymore. Regardless, here's the connection I see, and I'm enormously curious what others think of my theorizing:
Ask culture relies on every participant performing their emotional labor inward. Participants need to understand themselves and own their desires. When making an ask, you have to be self-aware enough to know what you want, understand what you're asking for, realize you may not know everything that goes into someone else's decision, and trust that the person you're asking something of knows and owns their own context. When considering an ask, you have to be comfortable weighing your own desires against someone else's, understanding how either answer will impact that, and own responsibility for the answer that you give.
Guess culture, on the other hand, relies on each participant performing their emotional labor outward. Participants need to understand each other, what's going on in one another's life, and be able to contextualize an entire community's needs (whether that community is a couple or an enormous family or a sport team or social group or...).
Ideally, the world runs best on a mix of both. And both require full shares of emotional labor from all participants to run smoothly.
part the third
THANK YOU to everyone who has been participating here, and to the author of the original piece, whose username I can't seem to find right now. WORLDS OF THANKS.
posted by amelioration at 5:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [78 favorites]
I was thinking I didn't really have anything to say. Because I am *loving* being single these days. Crone Island is fantastic, the water is warm, the drinks are refreshing, and the company can't be beat.
And then....
part the first
I read this and had to share a story that just cemented that I made the right decision when I chose to break things off with the man I had thought I was going to marry, a couple of years ago now.
He does not make friends of his own. The few friends that he has, he has because I talked to them first... When I want to do things with my friends, he wants to be included. When I want to do things with my friends and I don't want him along, he sulks. And when he's upset with me and fussing because he doesn't have the same kind of relationship with my friends that I do, he refuses to understand that it's because I have done ALL the work of maintaining those relationships, and he has done none. When he's feeling especially sorry for himself, he complains that if we ever split up, he wouldn't have any friends any more, and that my friends would be right there to help me move out. Well, duh. That's because I'm the one who makes plans with them, talks to them about everything and nothing, makes them feel welcome and happy in my home when they visit.
SO MUCH THIS. When I ended things with the gentleman mentioned above (who was in many ways a decent partner), this was his demand during the final conversation:
1. I was to contact our mutual friends (people he had previously raged at me about how they preferred me, which was true, because I did all of the emotional labor to maintain our social circle).
2. I was to tell them that he needed support, and exhort them to provide this support.
3. I was to do this with the understanding that a) "he wasn't going to call me a bitch, but it's not like he would be able to get the support he needed if he didn't tell them the truth about me" and b) I'd probably lose their friendship when they understood how terrible I am.
4. No, he couldn't just reach out himself, and why on earth would I suggest that maybe that was his to deal with?
I recognized this as absurdly unhealthy, don't you worry. But because I cared for him, I did make sure that all of our friends had his email address in case they wanted to reach out. From what I heard later, another friend did reach out to him, and got a tongue-lashing in response. I'm still quite close to this general circle of folks myself, largely because I continue to reach out and maintain the relationships.
part the second
I keep thinking about the connections folks are trying to make to ask vs. guess, which is a construct I have loved since tangerine first described it, though I'll admit I think it's widely over-applied hereabouts anymore. Regardless, here's the connection I see, and I'm enormously curious what others think of my theorizing:
Ask culture relies on every participant performing their emotional labor inward. Participants need to understand themselves and own their desires. When making an ask, you have to be self-aware enough to know what you want, understand what you're asking for, realize you may not know everything that goes into someone else's decision, and trust that the person you're asking something of knows and owns their own context. When considering an ask, you have to be comfortable weighing your own desires against someone else's, understanding how either answer will impact that, and own responsibility for the answer that you give.
Guess culture, on the other hand, relies on each participant performing their emotional labor outward. Participants need to understand each other, what's going on in one another's life, and be able to contextualize an entire community's needs (whether that community is a couple or an enormous family or a sport team or social group or...).
Ideally, the world runs best on a mix of both. And both require full shares of emotional labor from all participants to run smoothly.
part the third
THANK YOU to everyone who has been participating here, and to the author of the original piece, whose username I can't seem to find right now. WORLDS OF THANKS.
posted by amelioration at 5:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [78 favorites]
Ask culture relies on every participant performing their emotional labor inward. ... Guess culture, on the other hand, relies on each participant performing their emotional labor outward.
Oh my gods, yes. This.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:02 PM on July 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
Oh my gods, yes. This.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:02 PM on July 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
The flipside of how sad and horrifying this stuff often is is how hilarious it also often is:
"I tried to look!"
Surely this one is the apex. I don't see how it could be topped:
"I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't"
I was going to get you flowers but I didn't. I was going to... ...but I didn't. I imagine the man buried, fifty, seventy years from now, alone in his coffin, under six feet of earth and the thought, which he lived with all his life since the day he spoke it out loud, is buried with him. I was going to but I didn't. I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't.
I think I'll make that the message in my Christmas cards this year.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:07 PM on July 21, 2015 [43 favorites]
"I tried to look!"
Surely this one is the apex. I don't see how it could be topped:
"I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't"
I was going to get you flowers but I didn't. I was going to... ...but I didn't. I imagine the man buried, fifty, seventy years from now, alone in his coffin, under six feet of earth and the thought, which he lived with all his life since the day he spoke it out loud, is buried with him. I was going to but I didn't. I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't.
I think I'll make that the message in my Christmas cards this year.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:07 PM on July 21, 2015 [43 favorites]
"I was gonna show you I appreciated you as a person ... but I didn't."
posted by E. Whitehall at 6:16 PM on July 21, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by E. Whitehall at 6:16 PM on July 21, 2015 [37 favorites]
That's a huge rabbit hole. "I was going to stop doing drugs, but I didn't."
posted by Melismata at 6:18 PM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 6:18 PM on July 21, 2015 [10 favorites]
Honestly, this "Ask culture relies on every participant performing their emotional labor inward. ... Guess culture, on the other hand, relies on each participant performing their emotional labor outward," combined with the fact that I have finally really and truly and fully embraced that the only person I get to control is me, is why I am an Ask culture adherent in my own life. I can do Guess. I just won't, barring extremely special circumstances.
posted by amelioration at 6:19 PM on July 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by amelioration at 6:19 PM on July 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?
I think dbr and Rosie M. Banks and Mchelly made excellent points.
I would add, though, that when emotional labor is somewhat culturally acceptable for guys, it's in the context of Special Occasions, things that happen a handful of times a year or a lifetime - birthdays, Christmas, weddings, graduations, death of a family member, lost your job, etc etc etc. So I think that (some) men can feel and understand the pleasure or value of emotional work . . . . . . . . . but we haven't learned that it's a daily process. We can understand the pleasure of finding the perfect Christmas present; the idea that you could give & receive similar pleasure on any random Wednesday isn't even on the radar.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:20 PM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think dbr and Rosie M. Banks and Mchelly made excellent points.
I would add, though, that when emotional labor is somewhat culturally acceptable for guys, it's in the context of Special Occasions, things that happen a handful of times a year or a lifetime - birthdays, Christmas, weddings, graduations, death of a family member, lost your job, etc etc etc. So I think that (some) men can feel and understand the pleasure or value of emotional work . . . . . . . . . but we haven't learned that it's a daily process. We can understand the pleasure of finding the perfect Christmas present; the idea that you could give & receive similar pleasure on any random Wednesday isn't even on the radar.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:20 PM on July 21, 2015 [11 favorites]
it's in the context of Special Occasions
So true - and it's why the Best Man Speech and the Last Minute Pep Talk and the I've Always Admired You Dad and that sort of thing are such common movie and TV tropes. Like, it's a huge payoff when the usually checked-out male suddenly shows up and does the needed thing and makes an incredibly touching statement - not a dry eye in the house, when they crack that membrane, but just once or twice.
posted by Miko at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2015 [30 favorites]
So true - and it's why the Best Man Speech and the Last Minute Pep Talk and the I've Always Admired You Dad and that sort of thing are such common movie and TV tropes. Like, it's a huge payoff when the usually checked-out male suddenly shows up and does the needed thing and makes an incredibly touching statement - not a dry eye in the house, when they crack that membrane, but just once or twice.
posted by Miko at 6:38 PM on July 21, 2015 [30 favorites]
This thread made me realize that I'm not a "bad traveler" but a good traveler, one who cares that her family has a hotel room, who cares her family makes their connection, who cares that everyone has a good time. What I considered to anxiety was caring.
It's exhausting to think about all the energy I wasted on caring too much (and subsequently beating myself up for after being told that makes me no fun to travel with.)
posted by vespabelle at 7:03 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
It's exhausting to think about all the energy I wasted on caring too much (and subsequently beating myself up for after being told that makes me no fun to travel with.)
posted by vespabelle at 7:03 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
I still think it's so weird that no men much or at all have talked about why they so clearly don't take pleasure in it
First off, this has been an amazing thread thus far and I have been thinking about it constantly since its' inception and have much much more thinking to do.
Emotional labour coded as feminine was spot on. I think this can be ameliorated with programs like paternity leave. Here in Quebec when it was first introduced men scoffed, but as more and more men partook it became coded as normal (it isn't utopia but a tiny step in changing the social fabric). Our universal daycare program gives women (fathers too, but overwhelmingly women) more options and promotes the idea that women are more than mothers / care takers. And again the program is only a drop in the ocean to pushing for a more equal society. (Not trying to explain away the problem or offer an easy fix just some side thoughts on how we could all help (indirectly) lighten the labour load).
Tougher question than I thought. Have put my backspace key through a mighty workout trying to keep this somewhat succinct and unobtrusive.
Speaking only for myself, I guess it boils down to a mix of heavy introversion, shyness, non-talkativeness and a ... not easy upbringing at the hands of a domineering mother (a scoop of guess culture is in there but I don't see its' impact as much (and I worry that if I get to know people they will die and it can hurt a fair bit ... so I try to avoid that)). I'm very single (and free of family (so no one is being harmed by my doings or not doings)) my life is mine and I have structured it to be totally care and drama free. (No smugness as it is mostly pure luck (and plenty of privilege buffer).
I like people, in principle and do have friends and I can pretend to be social but the time and energy and feeling guilty for not wanting to do more ... I guess it always feels like I'm doing stuff other people want because I just want people to be happy but you can't control happiness (you can influence atmosphere somewhat though), so what is important to me I just go do it by myself. Maybe it is all just running away and being selfish and seeking rational, but right now ... la vie est belle.
I will likely become a hermit.
posted by phoque at 7:09 PM on July 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
First off, this has been an amazing thread thus far and I have been thinking about it constantly since its' inception and have much much more thinking to do.
Emotional labour coded as feminine was spot on. I think this can be ameliorated with programs like paternity leave. Here in Quebec when it was first introduced men scoffed, but as more and more men partook it became coded as normal (it isn't utopia but a tiny step in changing the social fabric). Our universal daycare program gives women (fathers too, but overwhelmingly women) more options and promotes the idea that women are more than mothers / care takers. And again the program is only a drop in the ocean to pushing for a more equal society. (Not trying to explain away the problem or offer an easy fix just some side thoughts on how we could all help (indirectly) lighten the labour load).
Tougher question than I thought. Have put my backspace key through a mighty workout trying to keep this somewhat succinct and unobtrusive.
Speaking only for myself, I guess it boils down to a mix of heavy introversion, shyness, non-talkativeness and a ... not easy upbringing at the hands of a domineering mother (a scoop of guess culture is in there but I don't see its' impact as much (and I worry that if I get to know people they will die and it can hurt a fair bit ... so I try to avoid that)). I'm very single (and free of family (so no one is being harmed by my doings or not doings)) my life is mine and I have structured it to be totally care and drama free. (No smugness as it is mostly pure luck (and plenty of privilege buffer).
I like people, in principle and do have friends and I can pretend to be social but the time and energy and feeling guilty for not wanting to do more ... I guess it always feels like I'm doing stuff other people want because I just want people to be happy but you can't control happiness (you can influence atmosphere somewhat though), so what is important to me I just go do it by myself. Maybe it is all just running away and being selfish and seeking rational, but right now ... la vie est belle.
I will likely become a hermit.
posted by phoque at 7:09 PM on July 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
"I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't"
All of a sudden my Dad telling my Mom that he was going to get her a birthday present but there was a line doesn't seem so bad. At least he made it into the store.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:27 PM on July 21, 2015 [26 favorites]
All of a sudden my Dad telling my Mom that he was going to get her a birthday present but there was a line doesn't seem so bad. At least he made it into the store.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:27 PM on July 21, 2015 [26 favorites]
All of a sudden my Dad telling my Mom that he was going to get her a birthday present but there was a line doesn't seem so bad. At least he made it into the store.
*bitter laugh of recognition*
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:29 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
*bitter laugh of recognition*
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:29 PM on July 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
(I have played the 'well, at least' game with myself so many times. There was the guy that would put the new toilet roll ON TOP OF the empty toilet roll on the holder. There was the guy that would take toothpaste out of the cabinet but not remove the empty gross toothpaste tube. There was the guy that would pile more beer into the fridge in front of empties and halves. There was the guy that would pointedly eat around things he thought I should've known not to serve. There was the guy that broke a bottle of nail polish, didn't clean it up, and his only apology was buying a completely different shade completely separated in the bottle with a $1 sticker from the pharmacy. There was the guy that advocated for he and his friends to carry their own chairs -- but nothing else! -- at a festival outing with several of his friends. There was the guy that taped up a broken tap with sticky tape. There was the guy that put a sheet between the mattress his cat peed on and the blanket while the pee was still wet. There was the guy that ruined my pan but washed the underside while leaving the ruined interior. There was the guy who ...
oh gods so many stories of consoling myself with a minimum so bare calling it spartan would've been an insult to sparta)
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:40 PM on July 21, 2015 [45 favorites]
oh gods so many stories of consoling myself with a minimum so bare calling it spartan would've been an insult to sparta)
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:40 PM on July 21, 2015 [45 favorites]
It reminds me of all those years when after my ex said he'd love for the family to have a relaxing vacation week in Truro, so I researched newspapers and then online, sent inquiries about vacations, made bookings, arranged pet sitting, packed for me and three kids, bought him a new bathing suit, mapped out a route to a summer house, ensured all the kids' favorite toys were with us
...and he didn't lift a finger to help with the kids, it was, after all, a VACATION, and why should he have to do a damned thing?
I feel you, Sister. Twice, I planned "vacations" that involved me doing EVERYTHING, him doing nothing, and me being so angry and stressed out because everything had to be what he wanted, and nevermind what I wanted. I very nearly pushed him off a bridge, and refused ever after to plan another "vacation" while the Monsters were small.
I started going to Chicago by myself every few months. I let him come with once. Once. "But I don't want to go to the Art Institute. I don't want to go to the Field Museum. I don't want to go to Gino's East for pizza. I don't want to go to Navy Pier. There are too many people here. This isn't relaxing at all." I told him tough shit, he was tagging along on MY vacation, and we were going to do what I wanted.
WHY is this A Thing? Why does "vacation" mean "the man gets doted on, the woman needs to suck it up and deal"?
posted by MissySedai at 7:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [51 favorites]
...and he didn't lift a finger to help with the kids, it was, after all, a VACATION, and why should he have to do a damned thing?
I feel you, Sister. Twice, I planned "vacations" that involved me doing EVERYTHING, him doing nothing, and me being so angry and stressed out because everything had to be what he wanted, and nevermind what I wanted. I very nearly pushed him off a bridge, and refused ever after to plan another "vacation" while the Monsters were small.
I started going to Chicago by myself every few months. I let him come with once. Once. "But I don't want to go to the Art Institute. I don't want to go to the Field Museum. I don't want to go to Gino's East for pizza. I don't want to go to Navy Pier. There are too many people here. This isn't relaxing at all." I told him tough shit, he was tagging along on MY vacation, and we were going to do what I wanted.
WHY is this A Thing? Why does "vacation" mean "the man gets doted on, the woman needs to suck it up and deal"?
posted by MissySedai at 7:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [51 favorites]
There was the guy who ...
...dumped his sugary tea all over my distinctive backpack that was at my desk (which he thought he shared, but he wasn't supposed to) and didn't bother to inform me--never mind apologize, never mind try to clean up his mess--so that I could save the backpack? Ah yes, him.
posted by wintersweet at 7:54 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
...dumped his sugary tea all over my distinctive backpack that was at my desk (which he thought he shared, but he wasn't supposed to) and didn't bother to inform me--never mind apologize, never mind try to clean up his mess--so that I could save the backpack? Ah yes, him.
posted by wintersweet at 7:54 PM on July 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
I keep having more thoughts! This time from the job perspective:
Part of the reason I quit academia was the extreme undervaluing of emotional labor. Community is important, but it takes work to make it good. Things like running seminars, coordinating social events, and remembering that students are people. I did these things because I wanted to have a better community, but I absolutely resented the fact that most others did not pull their weight at all in this regard. (And that's not even getting into the business of actively making the community worse by say, harassing women, which is tolerated in departments across the country/world.)
To be honest, I also take on a lot of labor (emotional and otherwise), because I am very particular and something of a control freak, and I like things to go my way.
Anyway, now I am in business for myself, which means I reap the rewards of my many efforts. It is amazingly liberating. I'm just carrying me; I don't have the burdens of a bunch of deadweights who don't care if things are better for everyone. It's not all mojitos and avocados, but it's pretty damn close.
posted by ktkt at 8:00 PM on July 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
Part of the reason I quit academia was the extreme undervaluing of emotional labor. Community is important, but it takes work to make it good. Things like running seminars, coordinating social events, and remembering that students are people. I did these things because I wanted to have a better community, but I absolutely resented the fact that most others did not pull their weight at all in this regard. (And that's not even getting into the business of actively making the community worse by say, harassing women, which is tolerated in departments across the country/world.)
To be honest, I also take on a lot of labor (emotional and otherwise), because I am very particular and something of a control freak, and I like things to go my way.
Anyway, now I am in business for myself, which means I reap the rewards of my many efforts. It is amazingly liberating. I'm just carrying me; I don't have the burdens of a bunch of deadweights who don't care if things are better for everyone. It's not all mojitos and avocados, but it's pretty damn close.
posted by ktkt at 8:00 PM on July 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
Part of the reason I quit academia was the extreme undervaluing of emotional labor.
OMG YES. Everything you listed is so true. And I've been thinking a lot about how that plays out in academic conferences, too: I almost always chair a session at a big conference in my discipline, and to me that means not just making sure that we run on time and the introductions are made, but that everyone gets to know each other before we start, that if someone doesn't get any questions (or any good questions) I make sure they're asked something worthwhile, or redirect that One Guy Whose Question Is In the Form of a Random Speech, etc. It's all exhausting and, to me, rewarding. And it goes completely unrecognized as a form of service to the profession. And I absolutely feel that it's unrecognized not just in a "well, everyone chairs something at some point, no big deal," way, but instead because a lot of the work of being a good chair is coded as feminine, especially compared with work that's more quantitative and unemotional.
posted by TwoStride at 8:14 PM on July 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
OMG YES. Everything you listed is so true. And I've been thinking a lot about how that plays out in academic conferences, too: I almost always chair a session at a big conference in my discipline, and to me that means not just making sure that we run on time and the introductions are made, but that everyone gets to know each other before we start, that if someone doesn't get any questions (or any good questions) I make sure they're asked something worthwhile, or redirect that One Guy Whose Question Is In the Form of a Random Speech, etc. It's all exhausting and, to me, rewarding. And it goes completely unrecognized as a form of service to the profession. And I absolutely feel that it's unrecognized not just in a "well, everyone chairs something at some point, no big deal," way, but instead because a lot of the work of being a good chair is coded as feminine, especially compared with work that's more quantitative and unemotional.
posted by TwoStride at 8:14 PM on July 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
I keep having more thoughts!
Tell me about it. They are cascading...and if I spilled it all out here, it would seem like I'm on the precipice of divorce. I'm not! But the cap being lifted off of years of unacknowledged and unappreciated emotional labor...knowing I'm not alone, and being really pissed that so many of us deal with this shit on the daily and are made to feel like complete dogshit if we so much as ask to be left in peace for a couple hours for a hot bath and a nap...
Fuck me, I need more Bourbon.
posted by MissySedai at 8:44 PM on July 21, 2015 [37 favorites]
Tell me about it. They are cascading...and if I spilled it all out here, it would seem like I'm on the precipice of divorce. I'm not! But the cap being lifted off of years of unacknowledged and unappreciated emotional labor...knowing I'm not alone, and being really pissed that so many of us deal with this shit on the daily and are made to feel like complete dogshit if we so much as ask to be left in peace for a couple hours for a hot bath and a nap...
Fuck me, I need more Bourbon.
posted by MissySedai at 8:44 PM on July 21, 2015 [37 favorites]
This fascinating discussion has been like the distilled replay of the years of failed marriage counseling that is soon to end due to my impending divorce. Look for me on the landscape committee at Crone Island.
Also reading this thread calls to mind an incident a few years ago--I was standing in a packed subway car next to two young women who were talking. One was going on at great lengths about how it had taken literally years for her to convince her boyfriend to wash the dishes and now she had to start it all up again about taking out the trash. This line of complaint went on for a long, long time and I was practically smashed up against them the whole time. Eventually the complaining one caught my eye and something about the look on her face had her say, "You know what I'm talking about, don't you?" I said, "Look, if your boyfriend is a functional adult who can get out the door in the morning and can hold down a job, he knows perfectly well how to wash the dishes and take out the trash. He knows perfectly well that it gets you upset when he doesn't. And the reason that he doesn't is because he's an asshole."
Someone had to say it. I hope it helped pry her out.
posted by Sublimity at 8:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [88 favorites]
Also reading this thread calls to mind an incident a few years ago--I was standing in a packed subway car next to two young women who were talking. One was going on at great lengths about how it had taken literally years for her to convince her boyfriend to wash the dishes and now she had to start it all up again about taking out the trash. This line of complaint went on for a long, long time and I was practically smashed up against them the whole time. Eventually the complaining one caught my eye and something about the look on her face had her say, "You know what I'm talking about, don't you?" I said, "Look, if your boyfriend is a functional adult who can get out the door in the morning and can hold down a job, he knows perfectly well how to wash the dishes and take out the trash. He knows perfectly well that it gets you upset when he doesn't. And the reason that he doesn't is because he's an asshole."
Someone had to say it. I hope it helped pry her out.
posted by Sublimity at 8:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [88 favorites]
WHY is this A Thing? Why does "vacation" mean "the man gets doted on, the woman needs to suck it up and deal"?
Not long before I left my partner and our accommodation business, a couple with a two year old made a repeat booking. They'd first stayed when she was very pregnant but not yet keen to take leave from her job as a haematologist. The dad was a geologist or something. This time they came back with the two year old boy and she told me she missed her job. Every day during this stay, the dad went out for long walks on the property looking at all the fascinating stuff and she would be left with the kid as she had been for the last two years.
After they left, my partner and I had a another 'nail-in-the-coffin' argument. The cottage was a real mess with food in the couch, glitter in the carpet, and bush dirt and leaves everywhere. But it was only a small place so not that hard to clean. Partner began berating the woman calling her lazy and gross and careless (to me, not to her). I said "well, what about the dad? Why are you blaming her?" And he replied that the dad was on holidays so he shouldn't have to clean up and besides, the dad was out walking everyday...
I. was. so. mad. I stormed off on a big walk myself, leaving him to clean the place. I enjoyed the idea that he was vicariously cleaning up after the dad and I was celebrating the mother's resistance. Like I said, it wasn't long before I left.
posted by Thella at 8:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [90 favorites]
Not long before I left my partner and our accommodation business, a couple with a two year old made a repeat booking. They'd first stayed when she was very pregnant but not yet keen to take leave from her job as a haematologist. The dad was a geologist or something. This time they came back with the two year old boy and she told me she missed her job. Every day during this stay, the dad went out for long walks on the property looking at all the fascinating stuff and she would be left with the kid as she had been for the last two years.
After they left, my partner and I had a another 'nail-in-the-coffin' argument. The cottage was a real mess with food in the couch, glitter in the carpet, and bush dirt and leaves everywhere. But it was only a small place so not that hard to clean. Partner began berating the woman calling her lazy and gross and careless (to me, not to her). I said "well, what about the dad? Why are you blaming her?" And he replied that the dad was on holidays so he shouldn't have to clean up and besides, the dad was out walking everyday...
I. was. so. mad. I stormed off on a big walk myself, leaving him to clean the place. I enjoyed the idea that he was vicariously cleaning up after the dad and I was celebrating the mother's resistance. Like I said, it wasn't long before I left.
posted by Thella at 8:50 PM on July 21, 2015 [90 favorites]
This thread has truly changed my life. Thank you to everyone here whose wise words have given me so, so much perspective. I am volunteering for Crone Island immediately, and I'd be happy to row back to the mainland for supplies if there isn't a dedicated ferry service.
My partner thinks that saying "I love you" is an automatic fix and makes everything okay, and that the saying of it, or the fact of it, also obviates the need for any additional effort. It so does not magically make everything okay, and that misplaced belief that it does somehow magically just makes everything worse.
Good grief, yes. I am in the middle of separating from my husband and all he can talk about is how we met, wasn't it like a fairytale, nobody has such a great origin story as us. But he cannot, will not, discuss any of the (not violent but emotionally abusive) things that have brought us to the end.
He literally cannot. He actually says things like "I don't have a script prepared." or "I don't know what you want me to say." I would have thought that by this point he might have been able to produce something related to feelings, but apparently not.
He is so completely afraid of any kind of emotional labour that he is preparing to quit town, quit his job, leave his friends, and sell most of his stuff rather than go to just one therapy session with or without me, which was what I originally thought was worth a try when we first separated. I was willing to try; even though I am mostly checked out at this point it seemed like the right thing to do.
But now I see that he's been coasting along for years on my goodwill and my preference for a tidy home and DVRing The Daily Show and Colbert Report and not letting the cat shit stink up the house and putting the toilet roll back on the holder when it falls off and yes, finding, buying stamps for, and sending greeting cards to his family that he barely even scrawls in, while giving me barely more than ten words of surly conversation on weeknights while getting drunk and obnoxious on the weekends.
I really think he doesn't actually listen to a word I say.
Or maybe he doesn't see in three dimensions, so a packet of ham that is sitting on top of the hummus tub renders the hummus invisible. He will open the fridge door and yell, "Where is the leftover pizza?" I will reply, "It's in the green-lidded Tupperware on the second shelf behind the apples in the white bowl" and he will completely ignore my description and tear the fridge apart looking for it and put everything back higgledy-piggledy if at all.
Dude, there's a method in the fridge. Leftovers are always on the second shelf. Does he really not know that by now?
Yesterday he walked into the room holding a Sharpie and asked me if I knew where the lid for it was. I think I actually hurt myself rolling my eyes at that one.
posted by vickyverky at 8:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [59 favorites]
My partner thinks that saying "I love you" is an automatic fix and makes everything okay, and that the saying of it, or the fact of it, also obviates the need for any additional effort. It so does not magically make everything okay, and that misplaced belief that it does somehow magically just makes everything worse.
Good grief, yes. I am in the middle of separating from my husband and all he can talk about is how we met, wasn't it like a fairytale, nobody has such a great origin story as us. But he cannot, will not, discuss any of the (not violent but emotionally abusive) things that have brought us to the end.
He literally cannot. He actually says things like "I don't have a script prepared." or "I don't know what you want me to say." I would have thought that by this point he might have been able to produce something related to feelings, but apparently not.
He is so completely afraid of any kind of emotional labour that he is preparing to quit town, quit his job, leave his friends, and sell most of his stuff rather than go to just one therapy session with or without me, which was what I originally thought was worth a try when we first separated. I was willing to try; even though I am mostly checked out at this point it seemed like the right thing to do.
But now I see that he's been coasting along for years on my goodwill and my preference for a tidy home and DVRing The Daily Show and Colbert Report and not letting the cat shit stink up the house and putting the toilet roll back on the holder when it falls off and yes, finding, buying stamps for, and sending greeting cards to his family that he barely even scrawls in, while giving me barely more than ten words of surly conversation on weeknights while getting drunk and obnoxious on the weekends.
I really think he doesn't actually listen to a word I say.
Or maybe he doesn't see in three dimensions, so a packet of ham that is sitting on top of the hummus tub renders the hummus invisible. He will open the fridge door and yell, "Where is the leftover pizza?" I will reply, "It's in the green-lidded Tupperware on the second shelf behind the apples in the white bowl" and he will completely ignore my description and tear the fridge apart looking for it and put everything back higgledy-piggledy if at all.
Dude, there's a method in the fridge. Leftovers are always on the second shelf. Does he really not know that by now?
Yesterday he walked into the room holding a Sharpie and asked me if I knew where the lid for it was. I think I actually hurt myself rolling my eyes at that one.
posted by vickyverky at 8:53 PM on July 21, 2015 [59 favorites]
There was the guy that would pointedly eat around things he thought I should've known not to serve.
I spent an hour on the entree alone, with interesting spices and a fiddly sauce. He picked at it. Does it not taste good? Is there something wrong? (Everyone else at the table is inhaling it as if they've never eaten in their lives. The MonsterFriends are asking me to give their ActualMoms the recipe.)
"Wellll...it's OK. It's just not my favorite."
The Monsters and MonsterFriends can articulate really well if there's something about a new dish that doesn't work for them. The texture is a little overwhelming, I don't really care for rosemary, mushrooms kind of taste like dirt to me, lamb is a little strong for my taste, I think it needs a little more cream, I wonder what it would taste like with a different kind of cheese, etc.
But the 46 year-old man just whines "It's just not my favorite."
*grinds teeth*
posted by MissySedai at 9:10 PM on July 21, 2015 [34 favorites]
I spent an hour on the entree alone, with interesting spices and a fiddly sauce. He picked at it. Does it not taste good? Is there something wrong? (Everyone else at the table is inhaling it as if they've never eaten in their lives. The MonsterFriends are asking me to give their ActualMoms the recipe.)
"Wellll...it's OK. It's just not my favorite."
The Monsters and MonsterFriends can articulate really well if there's something about a new dish that doesn't work for them. The texture is a little overwhelming, I don't really care for rosemary, mushrooms kind of taste like dirt to me, lamb is a little strong for my taste, I think it needs a little more cream, I wonder what it would taste like with a different kind of cheese, etc.
But the 46 year-old man just whines "It's just not my favorite."
*grinds teeth*
posted by MissySedai at 9:10 PM on July 21, 2015 [34 favorites]
I wonder if there is any research on how long men stay single after a breakup vs. how long women do. Purely anecdotally, it seems like many men find another vic partner very quickly because they are unable or unwilling to take care of themselves.
posted by desjardins at 9:14 PM on July 21, 2015 [45 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 9:14 PM on July 21, 2015 [45 favorites]
A note to "bosses," especially men: Anybody can be a boss, as is all too frequently readily apparent by the number of terrible workplaces in the world run by assholes who mistake dominance displays for actual leadership.
It takes the kinds of skills being discussed in this thread to be a leader. The people in your outfit, especially the women, who make the plans, take care of the details, and know the people on their team well enough to resolve conflicts and keep everything running smoothly aren't doing "women's work" or "emotional labor." They're the leaders. What they're doing is called leadership. Promote them appropriately, back them up assiduously, and give them assistants as necessary.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:21 PM on July 21, 2015 [67 favorites]
It takes the kinds of skills being discussed in this thread to be a leader. The people in your outfit, especially the women, who make the plans, take care of the details, and know the people on their team well enough to resolve conflicts and keep everything running smoothly aren't doing "women's work" or "emotional labor." They're the leaders. What they're doing is called leadership. Promote them appropriately, back them up assiduously, and give them assistants as necessary.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:21 PM on July 21, 2015 [67 favorites]
I wonder if there is any research on how long men stay single after a breakup vs. how long women do.
I am sure there is. This HuffPo piece (not research, soz ) says one third of men over 45 remarry compared to one quarter of women. Oh, god. Reading the HuffPo article through the lens of this thread almost made me spit at the computer.
posted by Thella at 9:29 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am sure there is. This HuffPo piece (not research, soz ) says one third of men over 45 remarry compared to one quarter of women. Oh, god. Reading the HuffPo article through the lens of this thread almost made me spit at the computer.
posted by Thella at 9:29 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
stoneweaver, I felt kindly disposed toward Don Pepito earlier, and much more like I had the emotional space to phrase things the way I did because I felt I could trust Don Pepito to chance doing the labour of taking my labour-of-politeness seriously, and they did! With grace, which in social situations seems to be mostly a watchword for how invisibly you can perform emotional labour. (Thanks so much for your labour there, Don Pepito!) I came away from that exchange feeling pretty damn squishy because it went so well.
posted by E. Whitehall at 9:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by E. Whitehall at 9:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [18 favorites]
My favourite line this week from my ex has been him musing on how he plans to go to therapy because he's come to see that after a decade of my asking him to go to therapy that he needs help beyond (his original plan) my reading the self-help books and preparing an executive summary with instructions for him.
The reason, after telling me that I'm selfish for throwing away our long and happy marriage, why oh why won't I go to marriage counselling (I have agreed to, I've just refused to be the person who schedules the appointments as I have for the last decade, and refer to them as divorce counselling) is so that "I'll want to get married again of course and not have these problems with my next wife."
I don't think he'll actually go to therapy - I mean, I can hope, but I'd be deeply surprised. But get remarried? Definitely. He's barely functioning as a human being after a decade of telling me I was the incompetent one in our marriage. I hope she'll be okay, but I expect to wind up being the person who looks after him in his old age because he's managed to isolate everyone else and it'll be me or our kids, and I don't want my kids to bear that burden.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [26 favorites]
The reason, after telling me that I'm selfish for throwing away our long and happy marriage, why oh why won't I go to marriage counselling (I have agreed to, I've just refused to be the person who schedules the appointments as I have for the last decade, and refer to them as divorce counselling) is so that "I'll want to get married again of course and not have these problems with my next wife."
I don't think he'll actually go to therapy - I mean, I can hope, but I'd be deeply surprised. But get remarried? Definitely. He's barely functioning as a human being after a decade of telling me I was the incompetent one in our marriage. I hope she'll be okay, but I expect to wind up being the person who looks after him in his old age because he's managed to isolate everyone else and it'll be me or our kids, and I don't want my kids to bear that burden.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [26 favorites]
Is the reason most comment sections are rotten stinky places that no one is doing emotional labor?
I honestly think there is an emotional-labour vampire-type who makes comments (in threads, in person etc) just to make another person do even more emotional labour just to make up for what's been sucked up. And if there is no one willing to do it (what's moderation but emotional labour?), then everything sucks.
posted by Thella at 9:57 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
I honestly think there is an emotional-labour vampire-type who makes comments (in threads, in person etc) just to make another person do even more emotional labour just to make up for what's been sucked up. And if there is no one willing to do it (what's moderation but emotional labour?), then everything sucks.
posted by Thella at 9:57 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
but I expect to wind up being the person who looks after him in his old age because he's managed to isolate everyone else and it'll be me or our kids, and I don't want my kids to bear that burden.
posted by dorothyisunderwood
No. No. nooooooooo. Not your/childrens burden unless you want it to be. And it sounds like you don't.
posted by futz at 10:08 PM on July 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood
No. No. nooooooooo. Not your/childrens burden unless you want it to be. And it sounds like you don't.
posted by futz at 10:08 PM on July 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
Count me in as another new member/former lurker who finally signed up thanks to this thread.
I've shared this thread with several people, refreshed multiple times to read every post, and I'm left with a sadness that I want to have transformed into hope, because we're conditioned to want the happy ending right before the credits roll.
Except I don't really believe that, not entirely. I think of my own family, my own friend circle, my past relationships, and the stories here of performing under-appreciated affective labor strike me as so familiar. Too familiar for comfort, to tell the truth.
(I find it especially bothersome as a woman of color in the US, because I think that adds a layer to this as well. As someone who's worked in majority-white spaces, there's a tacit assumption that the support and maintenance staff are darker and/or foreign-born. Someone earlier talked about how the solution to this is not offloading emotional labor onto more marginalized women, and I've seen this exact scenario play out in workplaces time and time again, with women of color bearing the brunt. More than once this has led me to biting my tongue in conversation with white women discussing emotional/domestic labor expected of them in our shared workplace, because I don't want to bring up the uncomfortable reality that those tasks might not be distributed so evenly between us since We're Both Women, but that I might take on, or be expected to take on, a greater share of that type of work.)
I'm grateful for all the contributions here--special thanks to babelfish for writing the original article. I too want to visit Crone Island, and I hope there's room there to talk about why intersectionality is important to this conversation, without discounting the experience of other women who encounter this.
posted by brambles at 10:37 PM on July 21, 2015 [146 favorites]
I've shared this thread with several people, refreshed multiple times to read every post, and I'm left with a sadness that I want to have transformed into hope, because we're conditioned to want the happy ending right before the credits roll.
Except I don't really believe that, not entirely. I think of my own family, my own friend circle, my past relationships, and the stories here of performing under-appreciated affective labor strike me as so familiar. Too familiar for comfort, to tell the truth.
(I find it especially bothersome as a woman of color in the US, because I think that adds a layer to this as well. As someone who's worked in majority-white spaces, there's a tacit assumption that the support and maintenance staff are darker and/or foreign-born. Someone earlier talked about how the solution to this is not offloading emotional labor onto more marginalized women, and I've seen this exact scenario play out in workplaces time and time again, with women of color bearing the brunt. More than once this has led me to biting my tongue in conversation with white women discussing emotional/domestic labor expected of them in our shared workplace, because I don't want to bring up the uncomfortable reality that those tasks might not be distributed so evenly between us since We're Both Women, but that I might take on, or be expected to take on, a greater share of that type of work.)
I'm grateful for all the contributions here--special thanks to babelfish for writing the original article. I too want to visit Crone Island, and I hope there's room there to talk about why intersectionality is important to this conversation, without discounting the experience of other women who encounter this.
posted by brambles at 10:37 PM on July 21, 2015 [146 favorites]
No. No. nooooooooo. Not your/childrens burden unless you want it to be. And it sounds like you don't.
It goes upwards too in the generations - the daughters writing here about being expected to do work for their families and when they don't, that their mothers and mother-in-laws have to take over or get blamed for their daughter's failures.
And sometimes the cost of saying no can be borne because you have enough support, you have alternatives. But sometimes, especially when vulnerable children and elderly are involved, caregivers who are overwhelmingly women, get trapped as the final decision makers. Everyone else has been able to say no, but the woman who is the caregiver, her No is treated as the worst of all the no's possible, visible in a way that the rest of the no's from the people and society around her who failed to help so she finally had to say no, is held as a judgement on her. A judgement with punishment - social isolation, the withdrawal of practical support, down to outright misogynistic attacks because she's "such a cold bitch".
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:54 PM on July 21, 2015 [34 favorites]
It goes upwards too in the generations - the daughters writing here about being expected to do work for their families and when they don't, that their mothers and mother-in-laws have to take over or get blamed for their daughter's failures.
And sometimes the cost of saying no can be borne because you have enough support, you have alternatives. But sometimes, especially when vulnerable children and elderly are involved, caregivers who are overwhelmingly women, get trapped as the final decision makers. Everyone else has been able to say no, but the woman who is the caregiver, her No is treated as the worst of all the no's possible, visible in a way that the rest of the no's from the people and society around her who failed to help so she finally had to say no, is held as a judgement on her. A judgement with punishment - social isolation, the withdrawal of practical support, down to outright misogynistic attacks because she's "such a cold bitch".
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:54 PM on July 21, 2015 [34 favorites]
I expect to wind up being the person who looks after him in his old age
Noooo! Don't do it!
Seriously, you have other options. The Crone Island Man Relocation Squad can find him a nice new home on Coot Island. Yes, it's a lonely rock in the middle of the North Atlantic, but it's windswept. Craggy. Masculine. Coot Island's well compensated support staff are fully trained in #FeminismAsDadJokes, and we've found the residents really bond together over their inability to find (or look for) misplaced items.
And coming next summer: not sure what to do with your layabout teenage offspring? Worried he (or she) may not be developing the skills necessary to survive as an independent human in today's world, but concerned about distracting your child from the high stakes game of college admissions? Give your emotionally laboring self a break and send the kid to the Coot Island Summer Internship Program! Yes, your child can fulfill his community service requirements, build that college resume, volunteer with the elderly, and learn to appreciate what it's like to live on a remote island where nobody - and we mean nobody - restocks the toilet paper!
posted by deludingmyself at 10:56 PM on July 21, 2015 [80 favorites]
Noooo! Don't do it!
Seriously, you have other options. The Crone Island Man Relocation Squad can find him a nice new home on Coot Island. Yes, it's a lonely rock in the middle of the North Atlantic, but it's windswept. Craggy. Masculine. Coot Island's well compensated support staff are fully trained in #FeminismAsDadJokes, and we've found the residents really bond together over their inability to find (or look for) misplaced items.
And coming next summer: not sure what to do with your layabout teenage offspring? Worried he (or she) may not be developing the skills necessary to survive as an independent human in today's world, but concerned about distracting your child from the high stakes game of college admissions? Give your emotionally laboring self a break and send the kid to the Coot Island Summer Internship Program! Yes, your child can fulfill his community service requirements, build that college resume, volunteer with the elderly, and learn to appreciate what it's like to live on a remote island where nobody - and we mean nobody - restocks the toilet paper!
posted by deludingmyself at 10:56 PM on July 21, 2015 [80 favorites]
I too want to visit Crone Island, and I hope there's room there to talk about why intersectionality is important to this conversation, without discounting the experience of other women who encounter this.
Thanks for signing up and posting this. I've been thinking about how much heavy emotional lifting black women and other women of color are expected to do. I see this a lot in education, online, and in spaces related to writing and fandom--there is an expectation of and a demand for patient, kind teaching about personal and/or fraught and/or dangerous topics. Like many of the other forms of emotional labor discussed above, it has a widespread pernicious effect on everyone involved, and is something that people like me need to just stop doing.
posted by wintersweet at 11:06 PM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
Thanks for signing up and posting this. I've been thinking about how much heavy emotional lifting black women and other women of color are expected to do. I see this a lot in education, online, and in spaces related to writing and fandom--there is an expectation of and a demand for patient, kind teaching about personal and/or fraught and/or dangerous topics. Like many of the other forms of emotional labor discussed above, it has a widespread pernicious effect on everyone involved, and is something that people like me need to just stop doing.
posted by wintersweet at 11:06 PM on July 21, 2015 [32 favorites]
(We actually did authorize the janitorial staff to give out unlimited rolls of TP to any Coot Island resident who bothered to find out and acknowledge their birthday with a thoughtful card or gift, but thus far, no one's thought to try that.)
posted by deludingmyself at 11:06 PM on July 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by deludingmyself at 11:06 PM on July 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
Oh brambles, I'm so glad you brought that up! I was thinking when I was driving about how so much of the stereotypes about black women in particular are about white women using them, literally or figuratively, to do emotional labor and then take the brunt of the consequences for that emotional labor - and how this directly ties back to a system of slavery where black women were literally raising white children and being pressured to neglect/losing their own before being neglected by the very white children they raised. Talk about a history of unpaid, unacknowledged emotional labor!
One writer I admire greatly, Trudy who created Gradient Lair, talks a lot about the misogynoir which plays out between black women and others, and how the story of the "strong black woman" actually means she's expected to never need help or be taken care of while her contributions are also marginalized and appropriated. It's a pattern I've seen play out in the white woman dominated feminist spaces a lot, and the neglect of issues of race, sexual orientation, gender identity, class, etc... all seems to be a piece of this expectation that certain people, always the most vulnerable, will bear the emotional burden and have their value unseen and neglected.
This plays itself out in between white women and other women of color in different ways, too, all influenced by the means by which people of color and women of color in particular are marginalized, neglected, and expected to take the supportive role to white women. I can't remember if I mentioned it earlier (I've been thinking about this thread so much - I have all the thoughts!) but I'm vividly reminded of stories told by women who consulted for increasing racial diversity about the stark contrast between the white women who wanted nothing to change except more women of color doing what the white women thought was important, and the women of color who had a long series of observations about ways in which the organization centered white women and needed to change.
Needless to say, the white women were almost always unwilling to do the emotional work of recentering so that we're not centered. I'm not sure how to fix it, though, except the same way we talk about "fixing" it with men - bring it up as something valuable and important to do as part of all of us being part of a community that supports everyone. Emphasizing the importance of stepping up and doing our own work about race and gender and class and everything else so that we can perceive reality more accurately and do justice to other women, and by extension other people. Stressing the importance of listening to other women and taking responsibility for our own part in the inequalities which continue.
The descendents of native populations on various continents are also vulnerable - and were rendered that way by colonialism quite deliberately. Genocide and consolidation of people in "reservations" which don't allow them to support themselves is a very specific, targeted form of destruction that is aimed at the most vulnerable people and justified through various incarnations of manifest destiny. I don't even know where to start with the emotional work necessary for that restitution, but I feel like it's important to mention the need for restitution for very specific crimes against generations of people designed to eradicate everything about their culture and being.
And it strikes me just now, thinking about all of this, how unwelcome the refrain of "tell me what to do to make restitution" is as unwelcome as "tell me for the hundredth time to replace the toilet paper".
posted by Deoridhe at 11:16 PM on July 21, 2015 [74 favorites]
One writer I admire greatly, Trudy who created Gradient Lair, talks a lot about the misogynoir which plays out between black women and others, and how the story of the "strong black woman" actually means she's expected to never need help or be taken care of while her contributions are also marginalized and appropriated. It's a pattern I've seen play out in the white woman dominated feminist spaces a lot, and the neglect of issues of race, sexual orientation, gender identity, class, etc... all seems to be a piece of this expectation that certain people, always the most vulnerable, will bear the emotional burden and have their value unseen and neglected.
This plays itself out in between white women and other women of color in different ways, too, all influenced by the means by which people of color and women of color in particular are marginalized, neglected, and expected to take the supportive role to white women. I can't remember if I mentioned it earlier (I've been thinking about this thread so much - I have all the thoughts!) but I'm vividly reminded of stories told by women who consulted for increasing racial diversity about the stark contrast between the white women who wanted nothing to change except more women of color doing what the white women thought was important, and the women of color who had a long series of observations about ways in which the organization centered white women and needed to change.
Needless to say, the white women were almost always unwilling to do the emotional work of recentering so that we're not centered. I'm not sure how to fix it, though, except the same way we talk about "fixing" it with men - bring it up as something valuable and important to do as part of all of us being part of a community that supports everyone. Emphasizing the importance of stepping up and doing our own work about race and gender and class and everything else so that we can perceive reality more accurately and do justice to other women, and by extension other people. Stressing the importance of listening to other women and taking responsibility for our own part in the inequalities which continue.
The descendents of native populations on various continents are also vulnerable - and were rendered that way by colonialism quite deliberately. Genocide and consolidation of people in "reservations" which don't allow them to support themselves is a very specific, targeted form of destruction that is aimed at the most vulnerable people and justified through various incarnations of manifest destiny. I don't even know where to start with the emotional work necessary for that restitution, but I feel like it's important to mention the need for restitution for very specific crimes against generations of people designed to eradicate everything about their culture and being.
And it strikes me just now, thinking about all of this, how unwelcome the refrain of "tell me what to do to make restitution" is as unwelcome as "tell me for the hundredth time to replace the toilet paper".
posted by Deoridhe at 11:16 PM on July 21, 2015 [74 favorites]
One thing I've learned is to pass on the question. I'm often the only white person in a conversation, and questions get directed to me inappropriately. I can answer them with some competence, but what's better and more helpful is to smile pleasantly and say "Good question, Bella knows a lot about that?" and turn expectantly to the POC who was overlooked. It's keeping track in your head of a rough count of who spoke how many times and going "Oh yes, Jenny, did you have thoughts about that proposal? Meg, what would your advice be?" and then not interrupting when they speak, and listening.
A good ally doesn't answer the question directly even if they could. A good ally points to the person who is doing the teaching and thinking and understanding and says "hey, that's who you need to listen to, come and listen with me." A good ally recommends and supports and lends the weight of their reputation and trust - a sort of emotional curation? - behind people who are marginalised and oppressed.
It's hard shutting up when you know the answer and can get a cookie immediately. But it means there will eventually be way more delicious cookies for everyone! Crone Island has cookies, right? No-strings-attached cookies.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [44 favorites]
A good ally doesn't answer the question directly even if they could. A good ally points to the person who is doing the teaching and thinking and understanding and says "hey, that's who you need to listen to, come and listen with me." A good ally recommends and supports and lends the weight of their reputation and trust - a sort of emotional curation? - behind people who are marginalised and oppressed.
It's hard shutting up when you know the answer and can get a cookie immediately. But it means there will eventually be way more delicious cookies for everyone! Crone Island has cookies, right? No-strings-attached cookies.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [44 favorites]
I've found my little section of academia very open about emotional labour - I got an email from the head of research checking in on a few things, then thanking me for talking with one of her students. They have created a few programs - some volunteer and some paid - that are all about emotional labour for students. I got one of the paid positions because my emotional labour has been identified as valuable economically.
Which I think has made the way it isn't happening in the rest of my life so much worse.
I was thinking, as I came home today, that I am so so tired of men coming at me after they've fucked up, and just pretending everything is fine. And then if I call them on it, outright telling me I shouldn't even be upset. I just can't deal with that any more. I won't. Part of me is fretting about "are you demanding an apology" but honestly if you fuck up you apologise. I'm no longer accepting "I'm sorry you're hurting" or "I'm sorry you were offended" as an apology, and doing all that emotional work to reinterpret it as an apology. They can do that, while I get on with my goddamn day and put my emotional labour into important things.
posted by geek anachronism at 11:56 PM on July 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
Which I think has made the way it isn't happening in the rest of my life so much worse.
I was thinking, as I came home today, that I am so so tired of men coming at me after they've fucked up, and just pretending everything is fine. And then if I call them on it, outright telling me I shouldn't even be upset. I just can't deal with that any more. I won't. Part of me is fretting about "are you demanding an apology" but honestly if you fuck up you apologise. I'm no longer accepting "I'm sorry you're hurting" or "I'm sorry you were offended" as an apology, and doing all that emotional work to reinterpret it as an apology. They can do that, while I get on with my goddamn day and put my emotional labour into important things.
posted by geek anachronism at 11:56 PM on July 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
I also understand a little better why this recent article about wedding toast ghostwriters rubbed me the wrong way. It's people outsourcing the emotional labor of being a friend to (mostly female) professionals. I guess the flip side is it's another way women have managed to monetize this work.
posted by ungratefulninja at 12:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by ungratefulninja at 12:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
A few other random thoughts as I am waking up this morning:
* The momentum of this discussion and the personal impacts it's had are great--however it also kind of brings to mind an isolated society rediscovering fire, or something like that. Emotional labor and by extension domestic responsibility was a a huge part of second wave feminism. It wasn't all abortion rights and education access and equal work for equal pay--all those issues were seen as critical for giving women leverage to change or escape exactly what we are discussing here. On the most simplistic, sloganeering level-- "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" (because he doesn't bring anything she needs to survive).
* I recently watched Gosford Park and I'm reminded so strongly of Helen Mirren's revelations at the end. "What makes a good servant? The gift of anticipation." Nuff said.
* Looks like there are quite a few of us separated/separating/divorcing/divorced after long marriages. I've been on the lookout for a good community for support and maybe you have too. I'm totally up for putting together the MeFi Crone Island Divorce Support group--if this is of interest to anyone reading please MeMail me, and I may reach out to some of you too.
posted by Sublimity at 4:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
* The momentum of this discussion and the personal impacts it's had are great--however it also kind of brings to mind an isolated society rediscovering fire, or something like that. Emotional labor and by extension domestic responsibility was a a huge part of second wave feminism. It wasn't all abortion rights and education access and equal work for equal pay--all those issues were seen as critical for giving women leverage to change or escape exactly what we are discussing here. On the most simplistic, sloganeering level-- "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" (because he doesn't bring anything she needs to survive).
* I recently watched Gosford Park and I'm reminded so strongly of Helen Mirren's revelations at the end. "What makes a good servant? The gift of anticipation." Nuff said.
* Looks like there are quite a few of us separated/separating/divorcing/divorced after long marriages. I've been on the lookout for a good community for support and maybe you have too. I'm totally up for putting together the MeFi Crone Island Divorce Support group--if this is of interest to anyone reading please MeMail me, and I may reach out to some of you too.
posted by Sublimity at 4:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
I really think he doesn't actually listen to a word I say.
I have the soundtrack of What a Dude Hears in Relationship going to this in my head during so many moments of living with a guy:
"Fa la la la ... mumble toilet seat blah blah ... La la la clitoris .... jumble jumble blah appointment thursday (whatevs!) la la la Random Woman Voice Noise Interfering with Sportsball broadcast (gah, lady, puhleaze, noise from your face hole is making me tired!) la la la oh yay, squirrel!"
posted by honey-barbara at 5:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I have the soundtrack of What a Dude Hears in Relationship going to this in my head during so many moments of living with a guy:
"Fa la la la ... mumble toilet seat blah blah ... La la la clitoris .... jumble jumble blah appointment thursday (whatevs!) la la la Random Woman Voice Noise Interfering with Sportsball broadcast (gah, lady, puhleaze, noise from your face hole is making me tired!) la la la oh yay, squirrel!"
posted by honey-barbara at 5:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I've been reading this thread for the past two days and now I'm at the end I feel like saying something but am not sure where to start.
A few people have expressed interest in how this all works in lesbian relationships. Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I think it generally is more balanced. (Having also had relationships with men I have some personal comparison points). Even leaving out differences of personality and character, women are more likely to start from a similar set of expectations around how to be a woman, and even if we reject or rebel against that socialisation, it's still something we're familiar with. In my last relationship there were issues around emotional labour that I think were more related to our attachment styles (me anxious, her avoidant) which meant I wound up doing a lot of emotional labour that I felt went unacknowledged, or perhaps just didn't have the results I was hoping for - it didn't make us closer, just encouraged her to avoid more and more until she broke up with me, for my sake, so I could find someone who would treat me better. Yup.
Personally, I think stories from intersectional perspectives are great and would love to hear more. This is not to say I haven't nodded enthusiastically, growled in frustration born if familiarity and sometimes even cried at the stories that people have already told. But more stories are also good, and I sincerely hope Crone Island isn't just for white, cishet women (I get two but not all three of those categories).
Reading this thread has made me sad and angry though. How much shit we put up with, all the time. It's reminding me of my uni days, taking Women's Studies classes and learning new ways of thinking that seemed to make so much sense (well, except for Cixous and Irigaray, they still confuse me). I'd get so fired up back then. Now I'm older with a wealth of experiences, it saddens me to know how little has changed, but fires me up all over again. I told off a male colleague for not communicating info that directly related to work our manager was doing. I shut down a man on the train who nicely gave me a paper napkin I needed and then took it as permission to chat me up and make racist remarks. (But I thanked him nicely for the napkin, feeling morally superior as I did so.) I've tried to get female friends to read at least the article, if not this whole mammoth thread. And I still feel irritable and sad.
I think I've also worked out - not for the first time - that the emotional labour which is actually part of my job is what makes it so unrewarding. Having to smile sweetly
posted by Athanassiel at 5:34 AM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
A few people have expressed interest in how this all works in lesbian relationships. Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I think it generally is more balanced. (Having also had relationships with men I have some personal comparison points). Even leaving out differences of personality and character, women are more likely to start from a similar set of expectations around how to be a woman, and even if we reject or rebel against that socialisation, it's still something we're familiar with. In my last relationship there were issues around emotional labour that I think were more related to our attachment styles (me anxious, her avoidant) which meant I wound up doing a lot of emotional labour that I felt went unacknowledged, or perhaps just didn't have the results I was hoping for - it didn't make us closer, just encouraged her to avoid more and more until she broke up with me, for my sake, so I could find someone who would treat me better. Yup.
Personally, I think stories from intersectional perspectives are great and would love to hear more. This is not to say I haven't nodded enthusiastically, growled in frustration born if familiarity and sometimes even cried at the stories that people have already told. But more stories are also good, and I sincerely hope Crone Island isn't just for white, cishet women (I get two but not all three of those categories).
Reading this thread has made me sad and angry though. How much shit we put up with, all the time. It's reminding me of my uni days, taking Women's Studies classes and learning new ways of thinking that seemed to make so much sense (well, except for Cixous and Irigaray, they still confuse me). I'd get so fired up back then. Now I'm older with a wealth of experiences, it saddens me to know how little has changed, but fires me up all over again. I told off a male colleague for not communicating info that directly related to work our manager was doing. I shut down a man on the train who nicely gave me a paper napkin I needed and then took it as permission to chat me up and make racist remarks. (But I thanked him nicely for the napkin, feeling morally superior as I did so.) I've tried to get female friends to read at least the article, if not this whole mammoth thread. And I still feel irritable and sad.
I think I've also worked out - not for the first time - that the emotional labour which is actually part of my job is what makes it so unrewarding. Having to smile sweetly
posted by Athanassiel at 5:34 AM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
Sorry, accidental phone posting before complete due to fat fingers.
Having to smile sweetly, try to gently navigate the minefield of answering the question people are not asking directly, apologising for services we don't offer - I'm not sure how long I can keep doing it. Today a young woman called me rude because I gave her directions without smiling or being conciliatory. It goes a long way towards explaining why, after a day spent emotionally labouring for others, I have little left to take care of myself. My cat, lovely as he is, is perfectly happy to sit on my knee but can't ask how my day went. So if I want emotional support, I need to ask one of my (mostly female) friends, most of whom have partners and or children for whom they are providing the lion's share of emotional labour. No wonder I medicate with comfort food, TV and books rather than constantly drain them. So it's not just relationships that this thread is making people reconsider, but jobs as well.
posted by Athanassiel at 5:43 AM on July 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Having to smile sweetly, try to gently navigate the minefield of answering the question people are not asking directly, apologising for services we don't offer - I'm not sure how long I can keep doing it. Today a young woman called me rude because I gave her directions without smiling or being conciliatory. It goes a long way towards explaining why, after a day spent emotionally labouring for others, I have little left to take care of myself. My cat, lovely as he is, is perfectly happy to sit on my knee but can't ask how my day went. So if I want emotional support, I need to ask one of my (mostly female) friends, most of whom have partners and or children for whom they are providing the lion's share of emotional labour. No wonder I medicate with comfort food, TV and books rather than constantly drain them. So it's not just relationships that this thread is making people reconsider, but jobs as well.
posted by Athanassiel at 5:43 AM on July 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Today a young woman called me rude because I gave her directions without smiling or being conciliatory.
I once had an annual performance review where I was told that I was good at my job, good at managing deadlines, good at helping out in multiple departments.
BUT. (My boss told me this shamefacedly, which is how I knew telling me was something she had been forced to do.)
The important dude from an upstairs office (who often gave speeches about the importance of empowering women) thought it was rude that I never stopped working to smile at him when he walked by my desk. Not even when he came to my desk to ask me for something-- when he walked past me on his way to talk to someone else. I was supposed to stop doing my actual work, give him a big smile, and say "Hi, [dude's name]!", as if it was such a treat for him to visit our part of the building.
This was at a well-known progressive institution in a major city, and yet "hey girl, give me a smile" was an unspoken part of my job requirements, and my non-compliance with that secret requirement had to be mentioned in my annual review.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [103 favorites]
I once had an annual performance review where I was told that I was good at my job, good at managing deadlines, good at helping out in multiple departments.
BUT. (My boss told me this shamefacedly, which is how I knew telling me was something she had been forced to do.)
The important dude from an upstairs office (who often gave speeches about the importance of empowering women) thought it was rude that I never stopped working to smile at him when he walked by my desk. Not even when he came to my desk to ask me for something-- when he walked past me on his way to talk to someone else. I was supposed to stop doing my actual work, give him a big smile, and say "Hi, [dude's name]!", as if it was such a treat for him to visit our part of the building.
This was at a well-known progressive institution in a major city, and yet "hey girl, give me a smile" was an unspoken part of my job requirements, and my non-compliance with that secret requirement had to be mentioned in my annual review.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [103 favorites]
But now that so many of you have dutifully read the thread... what's your side? Is it something like when I'm standing in the kitchen clutching the fork surrounded by competent people and feeling like a barely socialized wolfchild? What is keeping the thing that feels most good to me from feeling at all good to men?A lot of emotional labour isn't all that fullfilling but just scut work, necessary scut work of course, but work that has to be repeated day in day out, with no real satisfaction in getting in done, like hoovering or doing the dishes or all those other things you need to do to not be an entirely gross adult. And if you're already privileged in this context that less is expected of you, but you can get a lot of kudos with the special, extravagant gestures while all the scut work is done "automatically" for you, it takes effort to see it and more effort to break your laziness.
I could joke that it was actually easier for me to literally donate a kidney than to make the appointment to set the whole process in motion, but that hits slightly too close to home.
And I come from a family that was fairly feminist, in a quiet, understated way. Very traditional labour division (mom being of the generation that was the first not to be fired at marriage, but only at pregnacy (me)) but dad was and is somebody who does do at least some of the housework and some of the emotional labour, though nowhere fifty-fifty; thinking about it the division there is very gendered too, with mum doing the day to day necessary things and dad doing more of the outward bound, keeping up connections with the family and friends and such.
I was raised with the expectation that all kids help with household chores, not to mention when we were old enough, the explicit instruction that mum would No Longer Cook on Sunday so if you want dinner, you have to make it yourselves. That helped a lot in actually being able to take some care of myself when living on my own and fortunately in the Netherlands we don't seem to have quite the same toxic ideas about helpless men as are evident in the thread, but still
But still with my late wife, we sort of fell into the same sort of relationship, for $reasons, me working outside the hous eand she supporting me and if we were not careful doing most of the scut work. I've had the same conversation, more than once, that some of y'all have had with your partners and had my eyes opened.
This thread is doing the same thing again. Just like the lavaballing threads made me aware of my own wide stance, reading all those stories made it possible to see all the same sort of emotional work being done by women in real life around me, at work and elsewhere. It's like the opposite of red pilling.
Thank you.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:05 AM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
Ok ok maybe we can't have an island but perhaps we should start booking for the First Annual Crone Island Cruise? This thread has been SO valuable for me this week in light of a large number of related work and personal obligations that stomped on my last nerve. One of the results? I let loose on a highly unprofessional male designer who, trust me, had it coming. When he wrote back, my assistant described his response as "petulant" so I told her to delete it and block his address. No time for your feels if you are going to be that stupid, dude.
It feels good not to put up with that shit. I'm not his mommy. I'm not responsible for training him to act like a pro according to our industry standards, either. And what really, REALLY rankled was that he had sent the same exact thing to several other editors, making a point to emphasize he was a GUY (this industry is female-dominated) and was having his website designed by [person] who has done all of [impressive women designers'] websites, sooooo... So what? Is this some weird "I'm good because I can hire the same website designer as Famous Designer" brag? No, it's creepy as hell. Get thee hence.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
It feels good not to put up with that shit. I'm not his mommy. I'm not responsible for training him to act like a pro according to our industry standards, either. And what really, REALLY rankled was that he had sent the same exact thing to several other editors, making a point to emphasize he was a GUY (this industry is female-dominated) and was having his website designed by [person] who has done all of [impressive women designers'] websites, sooooo... So what? Is this some weird "I'm good because I can hire the same website designer as Famous Designer" brag? No, it's creepy as hell. Get thee hence.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
Ok ok maybe we can't have an island but perhaps we should start booking for the First Annual Crone Island Cruise?
I feel like I should take a sec to point out that the cruise metaphor suggests women with money putting their feet up and being waited on by people of color, who are paid, but not paid very well, and have unappealing working conditions (separated from their families with little freedom).
posted by puddledork at 6:49 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
I feel like I should take a sec to point out that the cruise metaphor suggests women with money putting their feet up and being waited on by people of color, who are paid, but not paid very well, and have unappealing working conditions (separated from their families with little freedom).
posted by puddledork at 6:49 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
I just applied this to a discussion. A female colleague and I are working on a big project together and rented two rooms at an inn so we can go away and work on it. One of the rooms is slightly nicer than the other. As soon as I sent the confirmation she wrote back "and when we get there we can fight over who gets which room! Ha ha." Sort of a joke, but not. Because of this thread I recognized Emotional Labor Ahead - where I say "oh, you take the nicer room, I don't care," because I'd feel guilty taking the nicer room even though I did the task of making the booking, or where both of us come up with some cockamamie rationale to take the better room ("oh, I get up earlier, so I'll take the one closest to the stairs so I won't bother you") or we have to find some other way to even the score ("you take the nicer room but you buy breakfast so we're even") - I mean, yeesh.
I plan to write back "We'll just flip a coin and be done with it."
posted by Miko at 6:53 AM on July 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
I plan to write back "We'll just flip a coin and be done with it."
posted by Miko at 6:53 AM on July 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
Crone Camp, maybe?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:53 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:53 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
the cruise metaphor suggests women with money putting their feet up
Nah, it's a windjammer, and we crew it ourselves.
posted by Miko at 6:54 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Nah, it's a windjammer, and we crew it ourselves.
posted by Miko at 6:54 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
> "Wellll...it's OK. It's just not my favorite."
Jesus Christ. I realize this is a minor thing, and I have no desire to derail the thread, but I have to say: was this person raised by wolves? My (Ozark-origin) family may not have been the most enlightened in the world, but if there's one thing they drilled into me, it was ALWAYS COMPLIMENT THE COOK. My baseline response is "This is great!"; I don't care if it's leftovers or something we just had recently or it got slightly overcooked, my wife went to a lot of trouble to make it and put it on the table and she damn well deserves to feel good about it. (She cooks, I do the dishes.) If I especially like it, I'll borrow my Uncle Gene's line and say "This is so good we should have it three times a week!" That "it's OK" response seems to come out of the worldview "I want everything perfect all the time, and if it's not perfect I'm going to let my subordinates know so they'll do it perfect next time," and I don't care if that's a spouse or a boss or a professor, that person is an asshole.
posted by languagehat at 7:00 AM on July 22, 2015 [61 favorites]
Jesus Christ. I realize this is a minor thing, and I have no desire to derail the thread, but I have to say: was this person raised by wolves? My (Ozark-origin) family may not have been the most enlightened in the world, but if there's one thing they drilled into me, it was ALWAYS COMPLIMENT THE COOK. My baseline response is "This is great!"; I don't care if it's leftovers or something we just had recently or it got slightly overcooked, my wife went to a lot of trouble to make it and put it on the table and she damn well deserves to feel good about it. (She cooks, I do the dishes.) If I especially like it, I'll borrow my Uncle Gene's line and say "This is so good we should have it three times a week!" That "it's OK" response seems to come out of the worldview "I want everything perfect all the time, and if it's not perfect I'm going to let my subordinates know so they'll do it perfect next time," and I don't care if that's a spouse or a boss or a professor, that person is an asshole.
posted by languagehat at 7:00 AM on July 22, 2015 [61 favorites]
I love this thread and I've been deciding whether or not to add this story about emotional labor. I'm going to add it.
One of the biggest reasons I decided to get involved with my ex-fiance was that he was very upfront that his previous relationship tanked because he refused to get help when that relationship was sinking. He swore that moving forward in his life, he would seek out and accept help and do the work that needed to be done. And I thought, "Sounds like a guy who can do the emotional heavy lifting and how very enlightened he is so okay."
So we dated long distance which was great but then he moved in and he truly became another person overnight (didn't clean, didn't cook, didn't help with kids, didn't work, didn't mow the lawn, didn't feed the cats, didn't pay when we went out, etc.), and within a few weeks it became clear we needed to get some help. So I bought relationship books and read them and tried various tactics and then when nothing changed I researched and found therapists. I made appointments, I talked to someone and they suggested couples therapy. I found someone, I booked the appointment, and prepared myself for talking to my fiance.
And I came home from another exhausting and emotionally draining day as a special education high school teacher, I prepared dinner, arranged a sleepover for my kid so we could have the house, then sat the guy down. After weeks of (feeling sick but) thinking through the script, I was ready to finally confront him and explained we needed to see someone to sort stuff out.
His response was, "So you're saying the only way I can stay is if I agree to go with you and sit there while you tell me everything that's wrong with me? Sure. Sign me up for THAT." That was it. The next day I told him he had a week to get out.
When I think of the hours/days/weeks I wasted doing all the heavy lifting, trying to make him happy and all I asked was for him to show up to counseling and he refused, I want to scream. Or punch him in the face.
posted by kinetic at 7:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [82 favorites]
One of the biggest reasons I decided to get involved with my ex-fiance was that he was very upfront that his previous relationship tanked because he refused to get help when that relationship was sinking. He swore that moving forward in his life, he would seek out and accept help and do the work that needed to be done. And I thought, "Sounds like a guy who can do the emotional heavy lifting and how very enlightened he is so okay."
So we dated long distance which was great but then he moved in and he truly became another person overnight (didn't clean, didn't cook, didn't help with kids, didn't work, didn't mow the lawn, didn't feed the cats, didn't pay when we went out, etc.), and within a few weeks it became clear we needed to get some help. So I bought relationship books and read them and tried various tactics and then when nothing changed I researched and found therapists. I made appointments, I talked to someone and they suggested couples therapy. I found someone, I booked the appointment, and prepared myself for talking to my fiance.
And I came home from another exhausting and emotionally draining day as a special education high school teacher, I prepared dinner, arranged a sleepover for my kid so we could have the house, then sat the guy down. After weeks of (feeling sick but) thinking through the script, I was ready to finally confront him and explained we needed to see someone to sort stuff out.
His response was, "So you're saying the only way I can stay is if I agree to go with you and sit there while you tell me everything that's wrong with me? Sure. Sign me up for THAT." That was it. The next day I told him he had a week to get out.
When I think of the hours/days/weeks I wasted doing all the heavy lifting, trying to make him happy and all I asked was for him to show up to counseling and he refused, I want to scream. Or punch him in the face.
posted by kinetic at 7:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [82 favorites]
Why choose just one when you can do both? Christ, what an asshole.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:06 AM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:06 AM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
I have been loving this thread for days but so many competing anecdotes are coming into my head it's hard to know where (or whether) to start. I'm really lucky with my partner (and my ex actually). My current partner does his fair share of the emotional labour - the benefit of being with a therapist! He listens and nurtures and reminds me to visit my Mum and go to the doctor, like I do for him, and totally understands the need for emotional investment in a relationship. So I was feeling I didn't have much to say. But it's really got me thinking about family dynamics in a way that has been eye opening, in the sense of the emotional labour I expect from other women.
I have a sister and brother that share the same Mum as me. I've realised how much of a free pass we give my brother as compared to my sister. My sister is terrible at getting in touch or returning calls. My Mum and I say "Typical Sister." My brother is also terrible at it, and yet when we say "Typical Brother" it is in a completely different tone. Now, my sister is...difficult, and my brother is happy-go-lucky. But the feeling that her behaviour is so much worse than his is completely gendered. He rang me last week because he forgot my niece's birthday (he lives in another country and it was too late to send anything) and I went and bought something for her and wrapped it and made a big deal of giving it to her "from Uncle Bee" because I couldn't let it be seen that he had forgotten as my sister would have been mad. I completely and unquestioningly shouldered the labour of keeping that relationship intact. It didn't occur to me to say "nope, you're 35 and her birthday is the same every year. Deal with the fallout." I tutted and laughed and said "Oh you!". If my sister had done that I'm sure my Mum and I would have whispered to each other "Can you imagine?!" The idea of a 35 year old man - 35!- forgetting a birthday doesn't seem that shocking but that a woman would do the same? No, it wouldn't happen. I am completely feminist in outlook and I hadn't seen this blind spot at all so I'm grateful to this thread. I mean, she hurt me greatly when I went through my marriage breakdown and she wasn't there for me at all. Now instead of being wounded by that I can reframe it as "She wasn't interested in that piece of emotional labour. Doesn't matter why, she doesn't owe it to me just because she's a woman or my sister." (Ironically, my brother was actually great at that part.)
It also made me think about my Dad, and how he is good at emotional labour, and when he and my Mum split up when we were small he visited us every week and took us all weekend every weekend without fail and took us on holidays every year with no other adults. I've always been really proud of him for that, especially as he is from an older generation and would have been brought up in a very traditional role. But I remember how people would say how good he was - and he was, he learned to cook for us for example - but I don't remember anyone saying that about my Mum, who had us the rest of the time. Because, hey, that was her job. I'm still grateful to my Dad because he's probably why I've only ever been in relationships with good guys who can really listen (he's a great listener) and don't have some idea about what constitutes "women's work", but again it brings into relief the difference between what is expected of women and why men get cookies for doing the same thing.
But this is my favourite work-related story. A few years ago I worked with a total asshole. The worst, I wouldn't know where to start. He gave me the creeps - a blatant tit-gazer for one thing - and he just radiated aggressiveness. One day there were just the two of us in the office and he said "we'll have lunch together". It was pre-MeFi for me so I hadn't learnt "that won't be possible". So we went into the kitchen and had our lunch. And he spent the whole time talking about himself because, as a girl, what else was I for if not to listen to him talk about his problems and stories of his youth? At one point he was talking about leaving a previous job because he got so angry with someone he thought about jamming a pencil in their ear and realised this might have killed them so it was better to leave (he said this in all seriousness). In a moment of trying to be real and at least say some of the stuff that was in my head (other than shutupshutupshutup!) I said "You know, I'm very aware of you having an aggressive energy. It makes me uncomfortable at times." He leaned back in his chair and said - I swear - "Yes. I have a very powerful energy. Some people feel burned by it, it's so intense." I had no words for that. Finally lunch was over and he pushed his chair back and said "You don't mind clearing up, do you?" and walked out of the room leaving me to do the dishes. It's my best example of a man expecting that I will listen, nod, smile sweetly, give a shit about his emotional garbage and then also do some housework while I'm at it. It's the closest I've ever been to jamming a pencil in someone's ear. I would never do that again - perform this labour because "it's a colleague, you have to keep the wheels oiled, right?" My only other male colleague hated him too and would have told him to fuck off. But of course, he wouldn't have asked him.
Finally, thank you for giving me new words for when I talk to friends and co-workers. Yesterday my 23 year old colleague rang her boyfriend who works nights. She said afterwards "I ring him every day to check he's got up." I said "He's a grown up. If he doesn't get up it's his problem. You know what you're doing there? Emotional labour." And that is what I will be drumming into all the wonderful women I know. This is what you're doing. This is what it's called. You do this every day. Know it.
posted by billiebee at 7:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [74 favorites]
I have a sister and brother that share the same Mum as me. I've realised how much of a free pass we give my brother as compared to my sister. My sister is terrible at getting in touch or returning calls. My Mum and I say "Typical Sister." My brother is also terrible at it, and yet when we say "Typical Brother" it is in a completely different tone. Now, my sister is...difficult, and my brother is happy-go-lucky. But the feeling that her behaviour is so much worse than his is completely gendered. He rang me last week because he forgot my niece's birthday (he lives in another country and it was too late to send anything) and I went and bought something for her and wrapped it and made a big deal of giving it to her "from Uncle Bee" because I couldn't let it be seen that he had forgotten as my sister would have been mad. I completely and unquestioningly shouldered the labour of keeping that relationship intact. It didn't occur to me to say "nope, you're 35 and her birthday is the same every year. Deal with the fallout." I tutted and laughed and said "Oh you!". If my sister had done that I'm sure my Mum and I would have whispered to each other "Can you imagine?!" The idea of a 35 year old man - 35!- forgetting a birthday doesn't seem that shocking but that a woman would do the same? No, it wouldn't happen. I am completely feminist in outlook and I hadn't seen this blind spot at all so I'm grateful to this thread. I mean, she hurt me greatly when I went through my marriage breakdown and she wasn't there for me at all. Now instead of being wounded by that I can reframe it as "She wasn't interested in that piece of emotional labour. Doesn't matter why, she doesn't owe it to me just because she's a woman or my sister." (Ironically, my brother was actually great at that part.)
It also made me think about my Dad, and how he is good at emotional labour, and when he and my Mum split up when we were small he visited us every week and took us all weekend every weekend without fail and took us on holidays every year with no other adults. I've always been really proud of him for that, especially as he is from an older generation and would have been brought up in a very traditional role. But I remember how people would say how good he was - and he was, he learned to cook for us for example - but I don't remember anyone saying that about my Mum, who had us the rest of the time. Because, hey, that was her job. I'm still grateful to my Dad because he's probably why I've only ever been in relationships with good guys who can really listen (he's a great listener) and don't have some idea about what constitutes "women's work", but again it brings into relief the difference between what is expected of women and why men get cookies for doing the same thing.
But this is my favourite work-related story. A few years ago I worked with a total asshole. The worst, I wouldn't know where to start. He gave me the creeps - a blatant tit-gazer for one thing - and he just radiated aggressiveness. One day there were just the two of us in the office and he said "we'll have lunch together". It was pre-MeFi for me so I hadn't learnt "that won't be possible". So we went into the kitchen and had our lunch. And he spent the whole time talking about himself because, as a girl, what else was I for if not to listen to him talk about his problems and stories of his youth? At one point he was talking about leaving a previous job because he got so angry with someone he thought about jamming a pencil in their ear and realised this might have killed them so it was better to leave (he said this in all seriousness). In a moment of trying to be real and at least say some of the stuff that was in my head (other than shutupshutupshutup!) I said "You know, I'm very aware of you having an aggressive energy. It makes me uncomfortable at times." He leaned back in his chair and said - I swear - "Yes. I have a very powerful energy. Some people feel burned by it, it's so intense." I had no words for that. Finally lunch was over and he pushed his chair back and said "You don't mind clearing up, do you?" and walked out of the room leaving me to do the dishes. It's my best example of a man expecting that I will listen, nod, smile sweetly, give a shit about his emotional garbage and then also do some housework while I'm at it. It's the closest I've ever been to jamming a pencil in someone's ear. I would never do that again - perform this labour because "it's a colleague, you have to keep the wheels oiled, right?" My only other male colleague hated him too and would have told him to fuck off. But of course, he wouldn't have asked him.
Finally, thank you for giving me new words for when I talk to friends and co-workers. Yesterday my 23 year old colleague rang her boyfriend who works nights. She said afterwards "I ring him every day to check he's got up." I said "He's a grown up. If he doesn't get up it's his problem. You know what you're doing there? Emotional labour." And that is what I will be drumming into all the wonderful women I know. This is what you're doing. This is what it's called. You do this every day. Know it.
posted by billiebee at 7:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [74 favorites]
I expect to wind up being the person who looks after him in his old age because he's managed to isolate everyone else
dorothyisunderwood, I read until this part of your comment and bristled with indignation, thinking, why should you? And then I remembered my aunt's situation. Until she divorced her husband she was the one providing the income, because he couldn't (wouldn't?) find a job. Then he cheated on her, I think there was some minor physical abuse, too, and eventually she divorced him, keeping their two kids. He remarried very soon, but his new wife left him after he had an accident. He's fine now, but still without a job. And his family keep calling my aunt telling her she must take care of him and giving her grief about the fact that she didn't visit him in hospital. It's been about five years since the divorce, by the way. This has always seemed so unfair to me, but I could never really understand why they even dare to suggest this. After this thread, it's very clear. Fortunately, my aunt, though very frustrated with the whole situation, has no intention of giving in and going back to him, and I've always been so glad she doesn't.
posted by Guelder at 7:20 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
dorothyisunderwood, I read until this part of your comment and bristled with indignation, thinking, why should you? And then I remembered my aunt's situation. Until she divorced her husband she was the one providing the income, because he couldn't (wouldn't?) find a job. Then he cheated on her, I think there was some minor physical abuse, too, and eventually she divorced him, keeping their two kids. He remarried very soon, but his new wife left him after he had an accident. He's fine now, but still without a job. And his family keep calling my aunt telling her she must take care of him and giving her grief about the fact that she didn't visit him in hospital. It's been about five years since the divorce, by the way. This has always seemed so unfair to me, but I could never really understand why they even dare to suggest this. After this thread, it's very clear. Fortunately, my aunt, though very frustrated with the whole situation, has no intention of giving in and going back to him, and I've always been so glad she doesn't.
posted by Guelder at 7:20 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I made a new friend in the last year. She's awesome and I have a really good feeling about her. When we were moving my father-in-law to the Alzheimer's unit last month, she showed up at my house, unannounced, with an apple pie, fresh from the oven. I'm not sure anyone has ever done anything so sweet for me in my life. I was completely overwhelmed and I thanked her about a billion times (and I'm still not sure I've expressed how grateful I am).
Thankfully, with the husband, he is so good at acknowledgment (not as good with reciprocation) but he'll say things like, "You made cookies? Now I KNOW you love me!!!" But for other people, lately, I've held back my love of doing these sweet little things because I rarely got any feedback at all.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Thankfully, with the husband, he is so good at acknowledgment (not as good with reciprocation) but he'll say things like, "You made cookies? Now I KNOW you love me!!!" But for other people, lately, I've held back my love of doing these sweet little things because I rarely got any feedback at all.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:22 AM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
It occurs to me that I went to therapy once to, among other things, deal with what I'd been calling "host syndrome": the tendency in me to always pay attention to my surroundings when I'm out with friends, even when it by rights shouldn't have anything to do with me. (Is that person blocking someone else's way? Has that person been overlooked in conversation for too long? Are those two itching to leave, just too polite to say anything about it?) The therapist said something that boiled down to a phrase I see frequently in Captain Awkward: "let it be awkward."
Also, this thread has helped me find words for one of my previous relationships. He was otherwise a decent guy, could cook and everything, but he had a drinking problem. Didn't get violent or anything, he just... drank, all the time. Including before work. At one point, he did something offensive while drunk, and the next day I said that this drinking was a problem. He said he didn't see how, that was a one-time thing, people keep trying to stage interventions but he's fine. (After three, you'd think he'd get the hint.)
I just... I left. I envisioned trying to raise a child in that environment, where I'm also raising him, and I revolted a whole lot. I'm tired of raising men.
Of course, now I'm in a work situation where my direct boss has all of the emotional capacity of a salted slug, and yet is incredibly defensive and oversensitive about everything, so any request I make of him for information (for the fifth time, usually) I have to devote a paragraph to "I'm sure you're busy, I'm not questioning your authority*, I just don't understand and could use the help, thank you so much" before I continue on with my email.
* A literal phrase I literally used in an email to him. ("Literal" repeated because what the actual fuck.)
What this thread has helped me do is realise that moving back to [old position] would in fact be a great boon for my mental health in many ways, not the least of which is the director of that department seems willing to listen and stand up for his people.
posted by XtinaS at 7:26 AM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Also, this thread has helped me find words for one of my previous relationships. He was otherwise a decent guy, could cook and everything, but he had a drinking problem. Didn't get violent or anything, he just... drank, all the time. Including before work. At one point, he did something offensive while drunk, and the next day I said that this drinking was a problem. He said he didn't see how, that was a one-time thing, people keep trying to stage interventions but he's fine. (After three, you'd think he'd get the hint.)
I just... I left. I envisioned trying to raise a child in that environment, where I'm also raising him, and I revolted a whole lot. I'm tired of raising men.
Of course, now I'm in a work situation where my direct boss has all of the emotional capacity of a salted slug, and yet is incredibly defensive and oversensitive about everything, so any request I make of him for information (for the fifth time, usually) I have to devote a paragraph to "I'm sure you're busy, I'm not questioning your authority*, I just don't understand and could use the help, thank you so much" before I continue on with my email.
* A literal phrase I literally used in an email to him. ("Literal" repeated because what the actual fuck.)
What this thread has helped me do is realise that moving back to [old position] would in fact be a great boon for my mental health in many ways, not the least of which is the director of that department seems willing to listen and stand up for his people.
posted by XtinaS at 7:26 AM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Is it possible to find a cruise ship staffed entirely by white men? I once went to a party where the only men I talked to were the ones handing me drinks or food, and it was pret-ty spectacular.
posted by babelfish at 7:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 7:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
"Yesterday my 23 year old colleague rang her boyfriend who works nights. She said afterwards "I ring him every day to check he's got up." I said "He's a grown up. If he doesn't get up it's his problem. You know what you're doing there? Emotional labour."
Hah, my mom did this for years* with a family friend of ours. Who has alarms, and a wife, and presumably other ways to be woken up closer to home besides someone calling him from several towns away at 5:30 in the morning, FFS. It might have been some kind of weird excuse to chat on their parts, but come on.
* I'm not 100% sure she's stopped, but at some point fairly recently she admitted this was a little crazy. And no, they're not romantically involved either.
That anticipation line by Helen Mirren sounds right on the money: I'm supposed to be a mind-reader who takes on everyone's burdens as my own and deduce what you REALLY want when you have no idea and do it for you before you even ask. I have no clue how people do this job for 8 hours a day and then go home to needy families of four expecting the same treatment, because I just want to go home and drink and not talk to any humans.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Hah, my mom did this for years* with a family friend of ours. Who has alarms, and a wife, and presumably other ways to be woken up closer to home besides someone calling him from several towns away at 5:30 in the morning, FFS. It might have been some kind of weird excuse to chat on their parts, but come on.
* I'm not 100% sure she's stopped, but at some point fairly recently she admitted this was a little crazy. And no, they're not romantically involved either.
That anticipation line by Helen Mirren sounds right on the money: I'm supposed to be a mind-reader who takes on everyone's burdens as my own and deduce what you REALLY want when you have no idea and do it for you before you even ask. I have no clue how people do this job for 8 hours a day and then go home to needy families of four expecting the same treatment, because I just want to go home and drink and not talk to any humans.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
I can't be the only who's faced this:
I have no clue how people do this job for 8 hours a day and then go home to needy families of four expecting the same treatment, because I just want to go home and drink and not talk to any humans.
Or, I want to come home and unwind by talking about my day and my significant other tells me I need to de-stress before entering the house because he doesn't want to listen to me *bitch* about it.
posted by kinetic at 7:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
I have no clue how people do this job for 8 hours a day and then go home to needy families of four expecting the same treatment, because I just want to go home and drink and not talk to any humans.
Or, I want to come home and unwind by talking about my day and my significant other tells me I need to de-stress before entering the house because he doesn't want to listen to me *bitch* about it.
posted by kinetic at 7:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
can someone make a crone island tshirt design for metafilter because i will buy one. or several. or a tote bag. really anything. cafe press up some crone island swag and give the proceeds to mefi for being a place where htis convo could happen and lives were changed.
Paging MefiProjects, if something gets going there this could be the first thread to be linked to 4 different subsections of the site from the twitter account! (Or maybe a song about it?)
Great post and great discussion everyone, super eye-opening and it means a lot to me to read these frank discussions by women that I doubt I would've ever encountered without Metafilter.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Paging MefiProjects, if something gets going there this could be the first thread to be linked to 4 different subsections of the site from the twitter account! (Or maybe a song about it?)
Great post and great discussion everyone, super eye-opening and it means a lot to me to read these frank discussions by women that I doubt I would've ever encountered without Metafilter.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
A few people have expressed interest in how this all works in lesbian relationships. Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I think it generally is more balanced.
I'm no expert, but, in my experience, it really depends on the person. I was in a relationship with a girl a few years ago, and she was terrible, I mean terrible at emotional labor. Worse than many guys I've met and dated. We eventually broke up because I couldn't handle doing it all by myself.
Then again, this might have something to do with gender stereotypes: she identified as male (i.e. referring to herself as "he"- what's the proper term for that? I'm very sorry, I know I came across it some time ago, but I can't recall it) and preferred to act according to how men are supposed to act. For example, in all her relationships, it was her partner who took care of maintaining relationships with friends and acquaintances, she never saw any reason to remember birthdays, etc.
I think it's a matter of choice. I mean, it's far easier to just relax, not think of emotional labor and let someone else take care of it - justifying your behavior by the fact that you're male and knowing that society allows you to do so (or choosing to be male and acting accordingly). But, to me, it's childish and irresponsible. It takes effort to do your share of emotional labor, and, sometimes, a partner may just take the easy way out, saying they are no good at it - and, based on the example I gave, it doesn't really matter if this partner is male or female.
posted by Guelder at 7:48 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm no expert, but, in my experience, it really depends on the person. I was in a relationship with a girl a few years ago, and she was terrible, I mean terrible at emotional labor. Worse than many guys I've met and dated. We eventually broke up because I couldn't handle doing it all by myself.
Then again, this might have something to do with gender stereotypes: she identified as male (i.e. referring to herself as "he"- what's the proper term for that? I'm very sorry, I know I came across it some time ago, but I can't recall it) and preferred to act according to how men are supposed to act. For example, in all her relationships, it was her partner who took care of maintaining relationships with friends and acquaintances, she never saw any reason to remember birthdays, etc.
I think it's a matter of choice. I mean, it's far easier to just relax, not think of emotional labor and let someone else take care of it - justifying your behavior by the fact that you're male and knowing that society allows you to do so (or choosing to be male and acting accordingly). But, to me, it's childish and irresponsible. It takes effort to do your share of emotional labor, and, sometimes, a partner may just take the easy way out, saying they are no good at it - and, based on the example I gave, it doesn't really matter if this partner is male or female.
posted by Guelder at 7:48 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
As a man I've found the article and this thread very eye opening.
My closest friends are all female. Which is probably a gender performance thing but anyway. It's taken a lot of effort for me to open and talk about my emotions with them. I was actually proud of myself for doing this. But I now realise I've probably fallen into the trip of dumping all my shit on then line they're my therapists. In fairness I do think I listen in return. But I realise I need to be much more proactive in listening to and responding to their needs.
Secondly (I can't remember who said it up thread) I'm one of those guys who "hates their family." Last Christmas together felt like a bad party rather than a fun gathering I'd like to be at. Partly this is due to stuff that was going on but I definitely don't keep up contract or engage emotionally. I now realise it's really up to me to get over myself and call my relatives regularly.
(I also recognise at least somewhat that saying these things is easier than doing)
You know all these weird social systems we set up on societies damage people because they don't allow the full range of human behaviour.
It's kind of weird to think that it actually takes a boatload of effort to be fully human.
posted by Erberus at 7:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
My closest friends are all female. Which is probably a gender performance thing but anyway. It's taken a lot of effort for me to open and talk about my emotions with them. I was actually proud of myself for doing this. But I now realise I've probably fallen into the trip of dumping all my shit on then line they're my therapists. In fairness I do think I listen in return. But I realise I need to be much more proactive in listening to and responding to their needs.
Secondly (I can't remember who said it up thread) I'm one of those guys who "hates their family." Last Christmas together felt like a bad party rather than a fun gathering I'd like to be at. Partly this is due to stuff that was going on but I definitely don't keep up contract or engage emotionally. I now realise it's really up to me to get over myself and call my relatives regularly.
(I also recognise at least somewhat that saying these things is easier than doing)
You know all these weird social systems we set up on societies damage people because they don't allow the full range of human behaviour.
It's kind of weird to think that it actually takes a boatload of effort to be fully human.
posted by Erberus at 7:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
> Then again, this might have something to do with gender stereotypes: she identified as male (i.e. referring to herself as "he"- what's the proper term for that? I'm very sorry, I know I came across it some time ago, but I can't recall it) and preferred to act according to how men are supposed to act. For example, in all her relationships, it was her partner who took care of maintaining relationships with friends and acquaintances, she never saw any reason to remember birthdays, etc.
Wow. It never would have occurred to me that patriarchal male bullshit could ruin lesbian relationships. This is indeed an educational thread.
posted by languagehat at 8:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Wow. It never would have occurred to me that patriarchal male bullshit could ruin lesbian relationships. This is indeed an educational thread.
posted by languagehat at 8:18 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
No. No. nooooooooo. Not your/childrens burden unless you want it to be. And it sounds like you don't.
My biggest issue with elder (or really any disability) care is that not doing it yourself is almost certainly delegating the work to women of color, usually the worst paid (at least in nursing homes) of all women of color in healthcare, as well. They are better-trained and skilled than you are, and beyond a certain point you have to loop in professionals, but they are poorly paid and suffer from the sort of casual abuse you often find with hourly workers (schedule fuckery/favoritism, benefits just out of reach, no value in institutional knowledge etc).
And because nursing homes are run by corporations dedicated first to increasing shareholder returns and fifth or sixth to the care of their customers, even the fanciest-looking places are basically misery mills. Even staff that gives a passing shit relies on family members to come in and do much of the work if they want anything better than baseline care, like getting a diaper changed within a couple hours or feeding a patient before the food gets cold (or, sadly, taken by another more mobile patient or staff or family).
I don't know how the fuck to fix that. Even someone I was divorced from, if they were my kids' parent...I don't know if I can just say "yeah, do that".
posted by Lyn Never at 8:20 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
My biggest issue with elder (or really any disability) care is that not doing it yourself is almost certainly delegating the work to women of color, usually the worst paid (at least in nursing homes) of all women of color in healthcare, as well. They are better-trained and skilled than you are, and beyond a certain point you have to loop in professionals, but they are poorly paid and suffer from the sort of casual abuse you often find with hourly workers (schedule fuckery/favoritism, benefits just out of reach, no value in institutional knowledge etc).
And because nursing homes are run by corporations dedicated first to increasing shareholder returns and fifth or sixth to the care of their customers, even the fanciest-looking places are basically misery mills. Even staff that gives a passing shit relies on family members to come in and do much of the work if they want anything better than baseline care, like getting a diaper changed within a couple hours or feeding a patient before the food gets cold (or, sadly, taken by another more mobile patient or staff or family).
I don't know how the fuck to fix that. Even someone I was divorced from, if they were my kids' parent...I don't know if I can just say "yeah, do that".
posted by Lyn Never at 8:20 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
> I mean, she hurt me greatly when I went through my marriage breakdown and she wasn't there for me at all. Now instead of being wounded by that I can reframe it as "She wasn't interested in that piece of emotional labour. Doesn't matter why, she doesn't owe it to me just because she's a woman or my sister."
I think this may be overcompensating on your part. Your sister should be there for you, not because she's a woman but because she's your sister. Siblings shouldn't treat each other like random acquaintances.
posted by languagehat at 8:21 AM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think this may be overcompensating on your part. Your sister should be there for you, not because she's a woman but because she's your sister. Siblings shouldn't treat each other like random acquaintances.
posted by languagehat at 8:21 AM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
My husband is pretty good at performing his fair share of emotional labor, and is definitely better at it than he was at the beginning of our relationship. Interestingly, this thread has given me the vocabulary to understand why I have such a damaged relationship with my mother-in-law: she expects me to perform the emotional labor that is my husband's job.
When I was finishing college and my now-husband was in grad school, we lived 500 miles apart. I went to visit him for his birthday one year and his mother came to visit him at the same time. Just to reiterate: he was living on the East Coast in a 2-bedroom apartment with another male graduate student and I was living in Chicago, and yet his mom gave me a hard time because her son's bathroom was dirty. (He had cleaned the bathroom, but there were some stray hairs in the sink from when he'd shaved that morning).
Later, when we were living together, his mom came to visit again and refused to speak to me for the entire visit. A couple years later, it surfaced that the reason she behaved so unspeakably (heh) rudely was that she'd been offended that I did not leave work early to greet her when she arrived from the airport, even though her son did just that and they got to spend a nice afternoon together. She also said that I was rude and disrespectful because our house wasn't clean enough.
My husband goes to visit her fairly regularly, and always sends birthday gifts and mother's day cards, and yet the fact that I do not do these things for her is an unpardonable affront. I still can't quite figure out if she wants gifts and cards from me in addition to the ones he sends, or if she believes it's now my job to do those things for him.
posted by coppermoss at 8:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
When I was finishing college and my now-husband was in grad school, we lived 500 miles apart. I went to visit him for his birthday one year and his mother came to visit him at the same time. Just to reiterate: he was living on the East Coast in a 2-bedroom apartment with another male graduate student and I was living in Chicago, and yet his mom gave me a hard time because her son's bathroom was dirty. (He had cleaned the bathroom, but there were some stray hairs in the sink from when he'd shaved that morning).
Later, when we were living together, his mom came to visit again and refused to speak to me for the entire visit. A couple years later, it surfaced that the reason she behaved so unspeakably (heh) rudely was that she'd been offended that I did not leave work early to greet her when she arrived from the airport, even though her son did just that and they got to spend a nice afternoon together. She also said that I was rude and disrespectful because our house wasn't clean enough.
My husband goes to visit her fairly regularly, and always sends birthday gifts and mother's day cards, and yet the fact that I do not do these things for her is an unpardonable affront. I still can't quite figure out if she wants gifts and cards from me in addition to the ones he sends, or if she believes it's now my job to do those things for him.
posted by coppermoss at 8:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
I want to crone cruise to the Galapagos. I just got dicked out of a trip there next year by a general failure by all the totally-exhausted-from-a-lifetime-of-this-shit women immediate to the situation to do the emotional labor that would have enabled my brother and my mother or my mother and me or all three of us to go. My aunt invited everybody in the family except my brother--and didn't notice she'd left him out. I almost didn't notice, either (complicated reasons my brother isn't noticed, even by emotional-labor champions like my aunt, whom, I'd like to stress, I do not blame), but in the nick of time I did see it, so I said, "Mom, can you ask whether brother can go, too? Because in the unlikely event he's really on purpose not invited I can't sanction this and you can go alone, but if he is and would like to go, for the love of God can we make it so? All three of us or just you two? And if he is welcome but doesn't want to go, I would love to go." For complicated reasons it would be unwise for me to say this stuff to my aunt myself. And I didn't want to haul off and invite my brother without making sure he was welcome first because it's just barely possible he wasn't and God above what a heartbreaking trainwreck that would be. So my mother, whom I'd really like to be able to say I do not blame, diddled around for complicated reasons mainly related to her being not adept at this stuff and for uncomplicated reasons entirely related to her being cheap as hell and therefore ambivalent about allowing herself to consider going to the Galapagos before she dies dead without ever having used any portion of her life to go to the Galapagos, preferring to spend all of it waiting for the weather report to come on the radio or playing computer MahJong or just kicking back and relaxing by sitting in a dark corner berating herself because her library books are overdue. So she called my aunt's landline, not the cell phone, every other day or something, and she didn't leave any messages and she didn't send any e-mail. She kept this up for days until finally my aunt picked up the phone and said, "well of course nephew could have come, but now the boat is full." Now we can't go and we didn't get to say, "would you like to come with us to the Galapagos" to my brother who for complicated reasons is the one person in the family people should remember when they think about who should get asked to come along and do a fun thing with all of us together.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:25 AM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 8:25 AM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Oh, and this thread also prompted me to give myself permission to stop feeling guilty about letting a friendship lapse with a guy who would always monopolize conversation with an hourlong monologue about his life, would never ask me a damn thing about myself, would make wide, sweeping generalizations about women and then feel wounded when I called him on his sexist bullshit and then expect me to soothe his hurt feelings. The final straw was when he texted me after months of radio silence to say, "I miss you! We haven't talked in so long. Call me."
Fuck you, if you miss me so much you can pick up the goddamn phone that is literally in your hand because you're texting me and call me yourself.
posted by coppermoss at 8:30 AM on July 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
Fuck you, if you miss me so much you can pick up the goddamn phone that is literally in your hand because you're texting me and call me yourself.
posted by coppermoss at 8:30 AM on July 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
Where I live, the entire economy depends on exploiting minority ethnicity women to handle the third shift of the middle and upper class, and increasingly even the working class. I pay twice the going rate for my household help so she gets a fair wage, decent working hours with weekends and public holidays off, and as a result, I'm being judged against parents with live-in round the clock nannies. I was going to write that to his credit my ex hasn't suggested firing her but then I remembered he has, to save costs.
His family's plan for their old age is exploited domestic labor and the women doing all the heavy lifting, because that's what's already working. I figure that I'd rather be the one who picks his nursing home than pass that choice on to my children - or pass the cost of choosing NOT to make that choice to my children, which is a gift to them.
That's a gift of emotional labour too, to take care of someone, to offer emotional labour to someone unpleasant or cruel in order to shield or replace someone who would otherwise feel forced or bear the cost of refusing that labour.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
His family's plan for their old age is exploited domestic labor and the women doing all the heavy lifting, because that's what's already working. I figure that I'd rather be the one who picks his nursing home than pass that choice on to my children - or pass the cost of choosing NOT to make that choice to my children, which is a gift to them.
That's a gift of emotional labour too, to take care of someone, to offer emotional labour to someone unpleasant or cruel in order to shield or replace someone who would otherwise feel forced or bear the cost of refusing that labour.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Then again, this might have something to do with gender stereotypes: she identified as male (i.e. referring to herself as "he"- what's the proper term for that? I'm very sorry, I know I came across it some time ago, but I can't recall it) and preferred to act according to how men are supposed to act.
Transgender? Transmasculine? Yeah, identifying as male is not a special pass that gets you off the hook for emotional labor and I have noticed that some trans men overcompensate by fulfilling stereotypes. I'm in the process of transitioning to male and I really have to watch myself so that I'm not like "whew! now I can relax!" Emotional labor is still just as much my responsibility; the difference is that it's no longer automatically assumed that I will perform it based on my perceived gender. It really is disturbing to realize how much other people's expectations of you depend on perceived gender (which in my case often comes down to hair length and clothing choice).
posted by desjardins at 8:39 AM on July 22, 2015 [41 favorites]
Transgender? Transmasculine? Yeah, identifying as male is not a special pass that gets you off the hook for emotional labor and I have noticed that some trans men overcompensate by fulfilling stereotypes. I'm in the process of transitioning to male and I really have to watch myself so that I'm not like "whew! now I can relax!" Emotional labor is still just as much my responsibility; the difference is that it's no longer automatically assumed that I will perform it based on my perceived gender. It really is disturbing to realize how much other people's expectations of you depend on perceived gender (which in my case often comes down to hair length and clothing choice).
posted by desjardins at 8:39 AM on July 22, 2015 [41 favorites]
My ex-boyfriend had a real insecurity around taste and gift giving and so gifts were a really loaded topic/ event in our relationship. I appreciate gifts and generally experience receiving them as acts of care that can also demonstrate how well someone knows my taste and how they see me. In both a slightly materialistic and non-materialistic way, I am a gift lover! That said, his attitude turned occasions where he gave me gifts into opportunities for me to comfort him and attend to his emotional needs. His gifts were a joyless chore because of the emotional labor I was expected to perform.
In advance of any gift-warranting occasion, he would ask me what I wanted. I performed emotional work around guiding him toward things I'd like without tipping the delicate balance into giving him instructions. This would make him feel as though I thought he'd fail if left to his own devices or make him feel that I was making a judgment on his taste. He was upset to the point of tears over this on several occasions, despite asking for specific instruction. If I said that I'd be happy with anything thoughtful, he would become frustrated with me and say that I clearly didn't think he could get it right. I learned very quickly that this was mandatory work to be exactingly and precisely carried out.
I labored away at ensuring that he felt comfortable throughout the gift giving process and giving him reassurance. I answered a ton of questions about presents that made an absolute occasion and spectacle of his potential gifts in anticipation of me being given a future gift. Many mysterious phone calls in the middle of the day, three weeks out from my birthday: "do you like blue?" "do you like scarves?" "do you ever use embroidery floss?" "how do you feel about sheepskin?" "will you like my gift?" Performing this work made any occasion about his giving me a gift rather than what the original celebration was intended to be about or any pleasure I may have gotten from receiving the gift. I had to be appropriately positive about the anticipation as well or he would feel discouraged and hurt.
Once we finally got through the minefield of this gift-build up and onto the actual gift-receiving, I worked very hard at performing the proper response to ensure that he'd feel appreciated for having gotten me a gift. He self-flagellated after having given me a gift early on in our relationship where my response had been positive but not effusive and ultimately said that he wasn't able to make me happy through gifts and that he should just never do it again because it was pointless. (Ironically, this was the best gift he ever gave me.) After that, I felt that I had to be clownishly positive about any of his gifts to ensure that I encouraged him and made him feel great although he generally disregarded any of the guidelines he asked for and got me what he wanted to get me.
This only escalated as our relationship went on. I spent so much time and emotional resource ensuring that he could give me gifts that he felt good about and making sure that he knew that I loved and appreciated them that I pushed aside any possibility of my actual enjoyment of the gifts. A week before I broke up with him, I spent HOURS combing through online florists' wares to pick out a bouquet for my upcoming birthday. And then I spent hours trying to coax him into picking something that I would actually enjoy (I hate 'wildflowers', have always loved tulips. He wanted me to be someone who loved wildflowers and spent the entire conversation trying to convince me I wanted something different than the bouquets that I was guiding him toward. When he couldn't convince me, he got insecure about how much I must have hated other wildflowers he'd purchased for me previously and nothing could convince him otherwise...)
Of course this was all done under the pretext that this was NOT work on my part and that there was nothing more to our interaction than him coming up with a wonderful gift and me receiving it gratefully and graciously.
(Fuck's sake. This looks absolutely absurd on my screen in a way that I was too close to the situation to realize...)
On a related note, after having watched my mother do this all of my life, I spent a lot of time and emotional energy on giving wonderful gifts to my first partner's family. When his grandmother exclaimed over the handmade melting moments (slaved over these fucking painful and delicate pieces of shit for four hours the previous night while he stood by and told me he'd just buy her a book voucher and that it didn't matter and she wouldn't care) and lavender pillow and told him what a great grandson he was and how perfectly he knew his taste... UGH. I didn't have the vocabulary for both the pride (performed my role correctly! My boyfriend looks like a great grandson and everyone secretly knows this is my work behind the scenes!) and rage (why is he getting any credit? Why did I bother?)-- everything in this thread has helped me to unpick this.
Reading the article and this thread has given me so much fresh insight into my current and past relationships and feels so empowering. So many of the stories shared in this thread made me nod furiously (I can't believe I haven't been favorited out yet today) and just feel absolute empathy and as though some of you have some sort of preternatural understanding of my subconscious and inner life.
I have performed so much unconscious emotional labor in my life and have been totally dismissive of it, its importance and its impact on me and my emotional health. I have performed so much unconscious emotional labor on behalf of men who dismiss or denigrate my efforts, who take credit for them or who need to maintain the illusion that it is not labor on my part at all in order to retain or enhance their sense of self. FUCK THAT NOISE.
posted by hellomiss at 8:42 AM on July 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
In advance of any gift-warranting occasion, he would ask me what I wanted. I performed emotional work around guiding him toward things I'd like without tipping the delicate balance into giving him instructions. This would make him feel as though I thought he'd fail if left to his own devices or make him feel that I was making a judgment on his taste. He was upset to the point of tears over this on several occasions, despite asking for specific instruction. If I said that I'd be happy with anything thoughtful, he would become frustrated with me and say that I clearly didn't think he could get it right. I learned very quickly that this was mandatory work to be exactingly and precisely carried out.
I labored away at ensuring that he felt comfortable throughout the gift giving process and giving him reassurance. I answered a ton of questions about presents that made an absolute occasion and spectacle of his potential gifts in anticipation of me being given a future gift. Many mysterious phone calls in the middle of the day, three weeks out from my birthday: "do you like blue?" "do you like scarves?" "do you ever use embroidery floss?" "how do you feel about sheepskin?" "will you like my gift?" Performing this work made any occasion about his giving me a gift rather than what the original celebration was intended to be about or any pleasure I may have gotten from receiving the gift. I had to be appropriately positive about the anticipation as well or he would feel discouraged and hurt.
Once we finally got through the minefield of this gift-build up and onto the actual gift-receiving, I worked very hard at performing the proper response to ensure that he'd feel appreciated for having gotten me a gift. He self-flagellated after having given me a gift early on in our relationship where my response had been positive but not effusive and ultimately said that he wasn't able to make me happy through gifts and that he should just never do it again because it was pointless. (Ironically, this was the best gift he ever gave me.) After that, I felt that I had to be clownishly positive about any of his gifts to ensure that I encouraged him and made him feel great although he generally disregarded any of the guidelines he asked for and got me what he wanted to get me.
This only escalated as our relationship went on. I spent so much time and emotional resource ensuring that he could give me gifts that he felt good about and making sure that he knew that I loved and appreciated them that I pushed aside any possibility of my actual enjoyment of the gifts. A week before I broke up with him, I spent HOURS combing through online florists' wares to pick out a bouquet for my upcoming birthday. And then I spent hours trying to coax him into picking something that I would actually enjoy (I hate 'wildflowers', have always loved tulips. He wanted me to be someone who loved wildflowers and spent the entire conversation trying to convince me I wanted something different than the bouquets that I was guiding him toward. When he couldn't convince me, he got insecure about how much I must have hated other wildflowers he'd purchased for me previously and nothing could convince him otherwise...)
Of course this was all done under the pretext that this was NOT work on my part and that there was nothing more to our interaction than him coming up with a wonderful gift and me receiving it gratefully and graciously.
(Fuck's sake. This looks absolutely absurd on my screen in a way that I was too close to the situation to realize...)
On a related note, after having watched my mother do this all of my life, I spent a lot of time and emotional energy on giving wonderful gifts to my first partner's family. When his grandmother exclaimed over the handmade melting moments (slaved over these fucking painful and delicate pieces of shit for four hours the previous night while he stood by and told me he'd just buy her a book voucher and that it didn't matter and she wouldn't care) and lavender pillow and told him what a great grandson he was and how perfectly he knew his taste... UGH. I didn't have the vocabulary for both the pride (performed my role correctly! My boyfriend looks like a great grandson and everyone secretly knows this is my work behind the scenes!) and rage (why is he getting any credit? Why did I bother?)-- everything in this thread has helped me to unpick this.
Reading the article and this thread has given me so much fresh insight into my current and past relationships and feels so empowering. So many of the stories shared in this thread made me nod furiously (I can't believe I haven't been favorited out yet today) and just feel absolute empathy and as though some of you have some sort of preternatural understanding of my subconscious and inner life.
I have performed so much unconscious emotional labor in my life and have been totally dismissive of it, its importance and its impact on me and my emotional health. I have performed so much unconscious emotional labor on behalf of men who dismiss or denigrate my efforts, who take credit for them or who need to maintain the illusion that it is not labor on my part at all in order to retain or enhance their sense of self. FUCK THAT NOISE.
posted by hellomiss at 8:42 AM on July 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
Or, I want to come home and unwind by talking about my day and my significant other tells me I need to de-stress before entering the house because he doesn't want to listen to me *bitch* about it.
Ugh. What a picture-perfect example of how wanting to abdicate doing your half of supporting your loved ones turns a reasonable issue into 110% asshole bullshit.
Four years ago my wife and I were living in our house while it was being renovated by a contractor who I guess wanted to tick every box on the awful contractor checklist. It was a pain in the ass in a million ways and if there was a way to fuck something up such that would require prodding, they'd do it. We were chasing my wife's Dream Design so she was more worked up about a lot of this stuff than I was and she's way more type-A than I am by a mile. So while we're both bothered by this, it's upsetting her more.
Some months in I had to say to her, look - this bugs me too. I am unhappy about this as well and it's taking a toll on me. We've both been at work all day, we're both tired. And when I walk in the door and the first minutes we spend together involve you venting about all the ways you're upset about this project it just makes me not want to come home at all. It just cannot be the first thing we talk about when we see each other at the end of the day. Can we make a rule here that for the first fifteen minutes we're together we don't talk about any unhappy renovation anything? Preferably we find some things we've liked about the day to talk about, but if it's all fucked at least we don't talk about This Groddamned House?
And that was all it took. Being able to walk in the door and enjoy each other for a few minutes before we plotted how to deal with it. For fuck's sake, of course I didn't want to hear it. This wasn't my - in my opinion - overly complicated scheme or pernickity colors. I thought getting bugged by some random marks on a wall from one day to the next was pointless so long as they got fixed eventually. But it bugged my partner so how could it not bug me that she was bothered?
I don't tell this story because I want a fucking cookie; I don't need one. The maddening thing to me, as a person who doesn't have to deal with these absolutely batshit insane stories so many of you have shared above, is that the cookie is that everything is easier this way. Boiled-over explosive bullshit is way harder to deal with and more unpleasant than just taking a second and asking a question and not kicking the problem down the road till later.
Maybe it's male answer syndrome that contributes to this crap, this idea that we have to understand and/or be able to reason out everything. A tremendous amount of my thinking about some of this stuff comes from a single minor incident with my dearest friend, who once complained about a phrase I used to describe her that was meant in praise. She'd previously told me she didn't like it and it didn't really register - primarily, I think, because I could not understand why it would bug her, given that it was so close to something she'd say in another context. So when I used it again she corrected me and said she'd told me it bugged her before, why would I say it again? I said I didn't understand blah blah this and that reasons.
She said "Why do you need to understand anything other than that it bugs me?"
Scales, Damascus, etc. Understanding is great, and being an analytical type I value it. But not understanding doesn't invalidate things. Acceptance doesn't need to be predicated on understanding. Maybe we men have a problem with this because of various societal conditioning? Maybe rejecting female priorities - which we grew up hearing haha they're so flighty and capricious and who knows why those silly geese do anything!? - is okayed for men because they can't reason out the Why when they should just shut up and accept the Is.
posted by phearlez at 9:05 AM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
Ugh. What a picture-perfect example of how wanting to abdicate doing your half of supporting your loved ones turns a reasonable issue into 110% asshole bullshit.
Four years ago my wife and I were living in our house while it was being renovated by a contractor who I guess wanted to tick every box on the awful contractor checklist. It was a pain in the ass in a million ways and if there was a way to fuck something up such that would require prodding, they'd do it. We were chasing my wife's Dream Design so she was more worked up about a lot of this stuff than I was and she's way more type-A than I am by a mile. So while we're both bothered by this, it's upsetting her more.
Some months in I had to say to her, look - this bugs me too. I am unhappy about this as well and it's taking a toll on me. We've both been at work all day, we're both tired. And when I walk in the door and the first minutes we spend together involve you venting about all the ways you're upset about this project it just makes me not want to come home at all. It just cannot be the first thing we talk about when we see each other at the end of the day. Can we make a rule here that for the first fifteen minutes we're together we don't talk about any unhappy renovation anything? Preferably we find some things we've liked about the day to talk about, but if it's all fucked at least we don't talk about This Groddamned House?
And that was all it took. Being able to walk in the door and enjoy each other for a few minutes before we plotted how to deal with it. For fuck's sake, of course I didn't want to hear it. This wasn't my - in my opinion - overly complicated scheme or pernickity colors. I thought getting bugged by some random marks on a wall from one day to the next was pointless so long as they got fixed eventually. But it bugged my partner so how could it not bug me that she was bothered?
I don't tell this story because I want a fucking cookie; I don't need one. The maddening thing to me, as a person who doesn't have to deal with these absolutely batshit insane stories so many of you have shared above, is that the cookie is that everything is easier this way. Boiled-over explosive bullshit is way harder to deal with and more unpleasant than just taking a second and asking a question and not kicking the problem down the road till later.
Maybe it's male answer syndrome that contributes to this crap, this idea that we have to understand and/or be able to reason out everything. A tremendous amount of my thinking about some of this stuff comes from a single minor incident with my dearest friend, who once complained about a phrase I used to describe her that was meant in praise. She'd previously told me she didn't like it and it didn't really register - primarily, I think, because I could not understand why it would bug her, given that it was so close to something she'd say in another context. So when I used it again she corrected me and said she'd told me it bugged her before, why would I say it again? I said I didn't understand blah blah this and that reasons.
She said "Why do you need to understand anything other than that it bugs me?"
Scales, Damascus, etc. Understanding is great, and being an analytical type I value it. But not understanding doesn't invalidate things. Acceptance doesn't need to be predicated on understanding. Maybe we men have a problem with this because of various societal conditioning? Maybe rejecting female priorities - which we grew up hearing haha they're so flighty and capricious and who knows why those silly geese do anything!? - is okayed for men because they can't reason out the Why when they should just shut up and accept the Is.
posted by phearlez at 9:05 AM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
I LOVE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU
it's funny, but I had mostly forgotten about "I was going to stop and get you flowers, but then I didn't" until I was typing that comment. That wasn't even the most egregious thing he did.
"Why do you need to understand anything other than that it bugs me?" --- YES. SO MUCH THIS. This is definitely a side tangent but when in conversations involving someone complaining about "PC culture," I always bring up this fantastic letter from Daniel Woodburn (an actor who is also a little person) to Roger Ebert, where Woodburn takes Ebert to task for his use of the word "midget," which, Woodburn notes, is considered pejorative in the little person community. And Roger Ebert's reaction?
Dear Mr. Woodburn,
I had no idea the word "midget" was considered offensive, and you are the only person who has ever written to me about it. In my mind it is a descriptive term, like "dwarf." "Little People" has seemed to me to have a vaguely condescending cuteness to it. If I am now informed that "midget" is offensive, I will no longer use it. What is your feeling about "dwarf?" Is "Little Person" always the preferred term? Our newspaper's style book, based on Associated Press, does not consider "midget" or "dwarf" to be offensive terms, but perhaps we have not caught up.
Sincerely, Roger Ebert
Repeated again for emphasis: "If I am now informed that 'midget' is offensive, I will no longer use it."
It's tangential but also related -- because all of this is tied to "I say this hurts me so why do you keep doing it?"
posted by librarianjess at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [51 favorites]
it's funny, but I had mostly forgotten about "I was going to stop and get you flowers, but then I didn't" until I was typing that comment. That wasn't even the most egregious thing he did.
"Why do you need to understand anything other than that it bugs me?" --- YES. SO MUCH THIS. This is definitely a side tangent but when in conversations involving someone complaining about "PC culture," I always bring up this fantastic letter from Daniel Woodburn (an actor who is also a little person) to Roger Ebert, where Woodburn takes Ebert to task for his use of the word "midget," which, Woodburn notes, is considered pejorative in the little person community. And Roger Ebert's reaction?
Dear Mr. Woodburn,
I had no idea the word "midget" was considered offensive, and you are the only person who has ever written to me about it. In my mind it is a descriptive term, like "dwarf." "Little People" has seemed to me to have a vaguely condescending cuteness to it. If I am now informed that "midget" is offensive, I will no longer use it. What is your feeling about "dwarf?" Is "Little Person" always the preferred term? Our newspaper's style book, based on Associated Press, does not consider "midget" or "dwarf" to be offensive terms, but perhaps we have not caught up.
Sincerely, Roger Ebert
Repeated again for emphasis: "If I am now informed that 'midget' is offensive, I will no longer use it."
It's tangential but also related -- because all of this is tied to "I say this hurts me so why do you keep doing it?"
posted by librarianjess at 9:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [51 favorites]
This thread is my everything right now. Conversations like this keep me sane in a world that tells me I'm difficult and selfish for expecting more from the men in my life. And to not have to comfort them when they are upset that I am asking for more.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:34 AM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
In that Ebert exchange - the whole thing, like most what he wrote is worth reading, but this bit rang true:
Words that cause pain should be retired, although perhaps during the transitional period they can offer a certain homeopathic relief. I have recently been in correspondence with disabled people over the ending of "Million Dollar Baby," and note that they sometimes use terms like "crip" and "gimp."
Bitch is a word right now - am I being a bitch, or am I being a Bitch?
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Words that cause pain should be retired, although perhaps during the transitional period they can offer a certain homeopathic relief. I have recently been in correspondence with disabled people over the ending of "Million Dollar Baby," and note that they sometimes use terms like "crip" and "gimp."
Bitch is a word right now - am I being a bitch, or am I being a Bitch?
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Bitch is a word right now - am I being a bitch, or am I being a Bitch?
Or if I'm a woman trying to verbally sort through some stuff, then I'm bitching and I should just cut it the fuck out.
In a lot of ways, this thread is making me happy. But it's also making me feel pretty sad about a lot of stupid choices I've made.
posted by kinetic at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Or if I'm a woman trying to verbally sort through some stuff, then I'm bitching and I should just cut it the fuck out.
In a lot of ways, this thread is making me happy. But it's also making me feel pretty sad about a lot of stupid choices I've made.
posted by kinetic at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
hellomiss, did you ever post anonymously about that gift situation on AskMe? Because that is scary similar to one I remember, and if there's anything this thread has taught me it's that there are scads of men like this in the world, but... I just want it to have been the same person, just to try to retain the illusion of sanity and order in the world.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was going to get you flowers but I didn't. I was going to... ...but I didn't.
HAHAHA. (Bitter laughter.) This was SUCH a trend in my relationships with men in their early-to-mid 20s. I think I'm finally past this, finally, finally. I would not be nice in return. "Oh, that's nice, you were going to? Didn't think to just stick that idea in your back pocket until next time? Instead you want me to thank you for doing nothing while also ensuring that I don't expect anything in the future?" What the f! It is hilarious though, but also like... so incompetent. I am the opposite, to the point that if I don't get you a particular thing for your birthday (because I get something else instead) I keep that alternate thing a secret for next time I might do it. I don't SAYYY hey I was GOING to get you the box set of that series you love! Why would I do that? Because I'm in LOVE with regret??
Anyway, got that off my chest.
Honestly, this "Ask culture relies on every participant performing their emotional labor inward. ... Guess culture, on the other hand, relies on each participant performing their emotional labor outward," combined with the fact that I have finally really and truly and fully embraced that the only person I get to control is me, is why I am an Ask culture adherent in my own life. I can do Guess. I just won't, barring extremely special circumstances.
Yes, yes, yes. My family and my boyfriend's family are both big Guess families and I cannot stand it. I'm staunchly Ask by conscious choice. Because I'm a busy person and I don't have time for it, don't have energy for it, and it drives me crazy. Plus nobody ever gets what they want in these particular instantiations of Guess culture-- people smother their desires, or state them but they get bulldozed by the best insinuator, and it's just so massively unfair and weighted toward the best guilt tripper. So I just... don't. I ignore it like they're not asking anything at all. It feels mean a lot of the time so I make concessions when I clearly get that they're angling for something, but as a way of life, I can't do it.
One Guy Whose Question Is In the Form of a Random Speech
off-topic, but lollllllllll
Wow. It never would have occurred to me that patriarchal male bullshit could ruin lesbian relationships.
I haven't experienced this personally, but I've seen it happen often-- along with masculine-presenting queer women judging and perpetuating stereotypes against feminine-presenting queer women. It's a problem, and it sucks.
Maybe it's male answer syndrome that contributes to this crap, this idea that we have to understand and/or be able to reason out everything.
Honestly I find all these theories about male answer and fix-it syndrome and needing to be "rational" and understand a problem before sympathizing to be overelaborate... on one level, yes, of course men are no more rational than woman, and I know that's not what you were implying, phearlez. But on a deeper level, no need to label this stuff "male" or "problem-solving" or any of those words we use to rationalize away the problem. The reality is that men are either too lazy (privileged) or too blind (privileged) to the issue to learn how to be emotionally supportive. No woman is born knowing how to listen or be emotionally supportive all the time. We're not born with an innate desire to put ourselves last. We all learn it*. Men don't-- they refuse to or fail to-- and it has nothing to do with being a man and everything to do with just not. doing. it. It's not a separate, male way of being-- it's an absence of effort. An absence of work.
I am just as "fix it" as the next man-- when I don't want to listen, or make an emotional effort, and I just want the problem to go away (i.e., don't want to offer emotional support).
*unless we don't, and then we're punished for it
posted by easter queen at 9:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [34 favorites]
HAHAHA. (Bitter laughter.) This was SUCH a trend in my relationships with men in their early-to-mid 20s. I think I'm finally past this, finally, finally. I would not be nice in return. "Oh, that's nice, you were going to? Didn't think to just stick that idea in your back pocket until next time? Instead you want me to thank you for doing nothing while also ensuring that I don't expect anything in the future?" What the f! It is hilarious though, but also like... so incompetent. I am the opposite, to the point that if I don't get you a particular thing for your birthday (because I get something else instead) I keep that alternate thing a secret for next time I might do it. I don't SAYYY hey I was GOING to get you the box set of that series you love! Why would I do that? Because I'm in LOVE with regret??
Anyway, got that off my chest.
Honestly, this "Ask culture relies on every participant performing their emotional labor inward. ... Guess culture, on the other hand, relies on each participant performing their emotional labor outward," combined with the fact that I have finally really and truly and fully embraced that the only person I get to control is me, is why I am an Ask culture adherent in my own life. I can do Guess. I just won't, barring extremely special circumstances.
Yes, yes, yes. My family and my boyfriend's family are both big Guess families and I cannot stand it. I'm staunchly Ask by conscious choice. Because I'm a busy person and I don't have time for it, don't have energy for it, and it drives me crazy. Plus nobody ever gets what they want in these particular instantiations of Guess culture-- people smother their desires, or state them but they get bulldozed by the best insinuator, and it's just so massively unfair and weighted toward the best guilt tripper. So I just... don't. I ignore it like they're not asking anything at all. It feels mean a lot of the time so I make concessions when I clearly get that they're angling for something, but as a way of life, I can't do it.
One Guy Whose Question Is In the Form of a Random Speech
off-topic, but lollllllllll
Wow. It never would have occurred to me that patriarchal male bullshit could ruin lesbian relationships.
I haven't experienced this personally, but I've seen it happen often-- along with masculine-presenting queer women judging and perpetuating stereotypes against feminine-presenting queer women. It's a problem, and it sucks.
Maybe it's male answer syndrome that contributes to this crap, this idea that we have to understand and/or be able to reason out everything.
Honestly I find all these theories about male answer and fix-it syndrome and needing to be "rational" and understand a problem before sympathizing to be overelaborate... on one level, yes, of course men are no more rational than woman, and I know that's not what you were implying, phearlez. But on a deeper level, no need to label this stuff "male" or "problem-solving" or any of those words we use to rationalize away the problem. The reality is that men are either too lazy (privileged) or too blind (privileged) to the issue to learn how to be emotionally supportive. No woman is born knowing how to listen or be emotionally supportive all the time. We're not born with an innate desire to put ourselves last. We all learn it*. Men don't-- they refuse to or fail to-- and it has nothing to do with being a man and everything to do with just not. doing. it. It's not a separate, male way of being-- it's an absence of effort. An absence of work.
I am just as "fix it" as the next man-- when I don't want to listen, or make an emotional effort, and I just want the problem to go away (i.e., don't want to offer emotional support).
*unless we don't, and then we're punished for it
posted by easter queen at 9:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [34 favorites]
"Why do you need to understand anything other than that it bugs me?" --- YES. SO MUCH THIS. This is definitely a side tangent but when in conversations involving someone complaining about "PC culture,"
I don't think that's a side tangent at all. It all boils down to whether it's okay to just shrug off stuff other people care about. We men are getting a cultural message that it's okay to not care about something other people care about, even if making a change for their sake costs us no physical and only minimal mental effort. That's (in my opinion and in privileged world I inhabit) stupid, so I don't really need to do it.
I see otherwise smart people do the same thing about consent. They mock affirmative consent because they don't get the way that ask/push till you get a yes is wearying (emotional labor!) for women. They mock trigger warnings because somehow giving some vague thought to what you're about to talk about is harder than exposing people with existing issues to more trauma (emotional labor!).
That's not a tangent, that's a perfectly identical vector.
posted by phearlez at 9:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
I don't think that's a side tangent at all. It all boils down to whether it's okay to just shrug off stuff other people care about. We men are getting a cultural message that it's okay to not care about something other people care about, even if making a change for their sake costs us no physical and only minimal mental effort. That's (in my opinion and in privileged world I inhabit) stupid, so I don't really need to do it.
I see otherwise smart people do the same thing about consent. They mock affirmative consent because they don't get the way that ask/push till you get a yes is wearying (emotional labor!) for women. They mock trigger warnings because somehow giving some vague thought to what you're about to talk about is harder than exposing people with existing issues to more trauma (emotional labor!).
That's not a tangent, that's a perfectly identical vector.
posted by phearlez at 9:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Or, I want to come home and unwind by talking about my day and my significant other tells me I need to de-stress before entering the house because he doesn't want to listen to me *bitch* about it.
Holy shit. This. My husband doesn't want me to work full-time anymore because "it makes you angry". No - work makes me stressed out. Being asked "what's for dinner" the second I walk in the door makes me angry. So does responding to my attempts to describe whichever awful work situation is stressing me out with "Oh yeah? That's nothing. (Insert competing story here.)"
posted by jenbeee at 9:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [48 favorites]
Holy shit. This. My husband doesn't want me to work full-time anymore because "it makes you angry". No - work makes me stressed out. Being asked "what's for dinner" the second I walk in the door makes me angry. So does responding to my attempts to describe whichever awful work situation is stressing me out with "Oh yeah? That's nothing. (Insert competing story here.)"
posted by jenbeee at 9:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [48 favorites]
In the course of discussing this yesterday my boyfriend made an interesting point about how despite not being religious, he's a fan of Jesus for being a good male role model. I agreed and said that it was remarkable that Jesus spent so much time with women-- because they were already trained to be martyrs! (Not a touch of sarcasm, I am serious.)
posted by easter queen at 9:52 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 9:52 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
In a lot of ways, this thread is making me happy. But it's also making me feel pretty sad about a lot of stupid choices I've made.
Kinetic - A favorite quote of mine - The past cannot be changed, forgotten, edited or erased - it can only be accepted.
Another favorite quote that I am reminded of pursuant to this thread is: Self degradation is not a form of modesty. It will only serve to weaken your spirit. Stop it.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:58 AM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
Kinetic - A favorite quote of mine - The past cannot be changed, forgotten, edited or erased - it can only be accepted.
Another favorite quote that I am reminded of pursuant to this thread is: Self degradation is not a form of modesty. It will only serve to weaken your spirit. Stop it.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:58 AM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
Speaking of consent, the emotional labor of sexual labor is just... oh god. The expectation that women should "fake it" (or else men will feel bad that they couldn't perform well enough), that we should have sex all the time when we don't want to*, that we should "take care of ourselves" (i.e. diet) so that our men don't stray or feel like less of a man, that we carefully modulate our "no's" so we don't hurt anyone's feelings OR put ourselves in danger, that we make our man cool with the idea that we won't always come, but can't necessarily ask for them to try something different if there is a way we will come, that we explain away our sexual desires as selfish, that we tell women to try dating older men but never suggest the reverse for men, blah blah blah...
*Some degree of this, reciprocated by both partners, is necessary-- but when you're female there's a whole dimension of pain/roughness that men do not have to experience.
This is a whole thing I've never acknowledged before-- that being a female partner in a straight relationship means a BUTTLOAD of emotional labor around sex, that you really really can't talk about, because there is so much male fragility on this issue. In some ways it's the final frontier. Say what you will about housework, but do not speak of orgasms!
posted by easter queen at 10:00 AM on July 22, 2015 [85 favorites]
*Some degree of this, reciprocated by both partners, is necessary-- but when you're female there's a whole dimension of pain/roughness that men do not have to experience.
This is a whole thing I've never acknowledged before-- that being a female partner in a straight relationship means a BUTTLOAD of emotional labor around sex, that you really really can't talk about, because there is so much male fragility on this issue. In some ways it's the final frontier. Say what you will about housework, but do not speak of orgasms!
posted by easter queen at 10:00 AM on July 22, 2015 [85 favorites]
Thanks, phearlez! I think I felt it was sort of a side tangent because it's a very strong personal pet peeve of mine so I couldn't really tell if I was shoe-horning it in or not because I'm too riled up about it!!
DEFINITELY re: consent. I also think of it in instances where we don't believe people when they tell us about their lived experiences as [women / POC / queer / in any other way marginalized], because of course that too is the same -- the idea that there are people who'd rather just write it off when others say "this thing that happens to me is very upsetting and hurtful" because they're too lazy or blind. Like I go into a blind lady-hulk rage anytime I think about how when the Cosby deposition came out, THAT's when everybody was like, "oh, he really did do it," as if dozens of women had just been making up these stories for fun. But for those people, it was easier and more comfortable not to believe.
posted by librarianjess at 10:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
DEFINITELY re: consent. I also think of it in instances where we don't believe people when they tell us about their lived experiences as [women / POC / queer / in any other way marginalized], because of course that too is the same -- the idea that there are people who'd rather just write it off when others say "this thing that happens to me is very upsetting and hurtful" because they're too lazy or blind. Like I go into a blind lady-hulk rage anytime I think about how when the Cosby deposition came out, THAT's when everybody was like, "oh, he really did do it," as if dozens of women had just been making up these stories for fun. But for those people, it was easier and more comfortable not to believe.
posted by librarianjess at 10:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
The reality is that men are either too lazy (privileged) or too blind (privileged) to the issue to learn how to be emotionally supportive. No woman is born knowing how to listen or be emotionally supportive all the time. We're not born with an innate desire to put ourselves last. We all learn it*. Men don't-- they refuse to or fail to-- and it has nothing to do with being a man and everything to do with just not. doing. it. It's not a separate, male way of being-- it's an absence of effort. An absence of work.
Oh bless you easter queen for summing up 5 years of wasted energy on my part.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 10:03 AM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Oh bless you easter queen for summing up 5 years of wasted energy on my part.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 10:03 AM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
sunset in snow country-- unfortunately, that wasn't me. I almost wish it were but I think it's a relatively common experience.
Thinking further about that relationship, so many of the things that were ostensibly 'for me' and intended to give me pleasure ended up being work that I did for him. This is true of so many of my relationships and interactions. It's a little scary to reflect on how much I push aside my needs and wants to attend to my understandings (whether actual or projected) of other people's emotional needs and wants.
Geek Anachronism's story about their birthday up-thread resonated so hard :/
posted by hellomiss at 10:08 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thinking further about that relationship, so many of the things that were ostensibly 'for me' and intended to give me pleasure ended up being work that I did for him. This is true of so many of my relationships and interactions. It's a little scary to reflect on how much I push aside my needs and wants to attend to my understandings (whether actual or projected) of other people's emotional needs and wants.
Geek Anachronism's story about their birthday up-thread resonated so hard :/
posted by hellomiss at 10:08 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Speaking of consent, the emotional labor of sexual labor is just... oh god.
And it's especially horrific after you've been pregnant for nine months, went through labor, spent the next 6 weeks trying to become a mother and no sleep and remembering to eat and do laundry and leaking milk and just being fucking EXHAUSTED and after your 6 week checkup your partner only wants to know if the doctor gave you the all-clear for sex. OMFG because yeah, that's the first question I had for the doctor, "Can I start getting banged again?!"
posted by kinetic at 10:12 AM on July 22, 2015 [55 favorites]
And it's especially horrific after you've been pregnant for nine months, went through labor, spent the next 6 weeks trying to become a mother and no sleep and remembering to eat and do laundry and leaking milk and just being fucking EXHAUSTED and after your 6 week checkup your partner only wants to know if the doctor gave you the all-clear for sex. OMFG because yeah, that's the first question I had for the doctor, "Can I start getting banged again?!"
posted by kinetic at 10:12 AM on July 22, 2015 [55 favorites]
It's not a separate, male way of being-- it's an absence of effort. An absence of work.
No, sure, absolutely. I don't excuse it and I only spitballed on it because I feel like understanding what cultural conditioning tells men this horseshit is okay is necessary. It's absolutely necessary to me because I am interested in raising my 2.5 year old boy to not be one more sexist asshole. In the end he'll have to decide to do the work and I can't do it for him. But I want to be aware of any message he's getting from the culture or, grod forbid, from me because I have soaked it up.
To make this something like a contribution rather than a me me me, something I think is related: we don't force The Boy to give out hugs or physical affection when he doesn't want to. I can't find the initial Mamademics post that inspired us about it, but the upshot was that we should not teach a child from infancy that their body is up for grabs for others to demand satisfaction from. Eventually the culture stops telling boys that but keeps telling girls, but not starting with the lesson that it's okay to demand from anyone seems like the right messaging.
posted by phearlez at 10:14 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
No, sure, absolutely. I don't excuse it and I only spitballed on it because I feel like understanding what cultural conditioning tells men this horseshit is okay is necessary. It's absolutely necessary to me because I am interested in raising my 2.5 year old boy to not be one more sexist asshole. In the end he'll have to decide to do the work and I can't do it for him. But I want to be aware of any message he's getting from the culture or, grod forbid, from me because I have soaked it up.
To make this something like a contribution rather than a me me me, something I think is related: we don't force The Boy to give out hugs or physical affection when he doesn't want to. I can't find the initial Mamademics post that inspired us about it, but the upshot was that we should not teach a child from infancy that their body is up for grabs for others to demand satisfaction from. Eventually the culture stops telling boys that but keeps telling girls, but not starting with the lesson that it's okay to demand from anyone seems like the right messaging.
posted by phearlez at 10:14 AM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
Completely understood, phearlez, and I didn't want to accuse you of any kind of essentialism-- you just reminded me of something that has rubbed me the wrong way for awhile. Not your post specifically (which was interesting) but the general phenomenon of classifying poor behavior as a specifically male, defensible thing. Like, "don't be the 'well, actually' guy, because some people, like women, don't care about facts and only care about chattering about nebulous emotions! Cool, I'm a feminist now!" Like it's men trying to do the right thing, but not acknowledging that women are not just blabbing about emotions all the time, they're doing the work of supporting each other and doing the supporting first, understanding second, which is a kind of wisdom/knowledge and not in opposition to it. And the problem with "well, actually" guy isn't that he knows information, it's how he brings it to the table. ... anyway, I'm off topic, but it's just one of those "Men are from Mars" things that has been on my mind. I feel like it would be nice for men to have a way to discuss these things where they can incorporate a knowledge of male privilege but also not make it seem like women are mysterious others and where it can be a positive working-out-of-male-conditioning-under-patriarchy, not just a negative space to the work of feminism.
There is definitely some male conditioning that reinforces the "men are fixers" line of thought. My personal anecdote is one time listening to an ex complain about something that to me seemed easy to solve, and I eventually snapped and was like, "well, then change things, because I don't want to hear about it anymore!" And then I was like "geez, easter queen, that was bitchy," and I realized that it WAS bitchy but no bitchier than a dude doing the same thing almost reflexively because he doesn't want to "put up with complaining."
And that is also a good point-- I have two nephews and a niece and I imagine parenting them is infinitely harder, but even as their aunt I have to keep these things in mind, even though I LOVE hugs from them, I have to be clear that it's their choice and not expect more affection from the girls than the boys. So far that's not a problem, but as they age I'm sure the gender socialization will be more present.
posted by easter queen at 10:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
There is definitely some male conditioning that reinforces the "men are fixers" line of thought. My personal anecdote is one time listening to an ex complain about something that to me seemed easy to solve, and I eventually snapped and was like, "well, then change things, because I don't want to hear about it anymore!" And then I was like "geez, easter queen, that was bitchy," and I realized that it WAS bitchy but no bitchier than a dude doing the same thing almost reflexively because he doesn't want to "put up with complaining."
And that is also a good point-- I have two nephews and a niece and I imagine parenting them is infinitely harder, but even as their aunt I have to keep these things in mind, even though I LOVE hugs from them, I have to be clear that it's their choice and not expect more affection from the girls than the boys. So far that's not a problem, but as they age I'm sure the gender socialization will be more present.
posted by easter queen at 10:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
So I lost a shitload of weight going on for a decade ago. I have kept it off, so yay me, I guess. My husband, after being diagnosed with Type II Diabetes, embarked on his own weight loss and exercise regime, and he's doing well. He's finding it easy, and guess why?
Yes, I am his (qualified only through my own experience) in-house dietician. All he has to do is go to the gym, and eat what I give him. (And yes, consistently going to the gym isn't all that easy for a lot of people, but he actually enjoys it, so it's not really a challenge for him, personally) All tasty, nutritious, pre-portioned, calorie-counted, Fitting His Fucking Macros. Which he changes all the time, incidentally, depending on what he's reading at the moment. And oh god, the endless conversations we have about this. I am over it. I am glad to help, and I want him to succeed for my own selfish reasons (i.e., I love him and want him around for a long time to come, and he really is a great guy most of the time) but I only was able to get my own shit together through a lot of effort and FINALLY fighting my ever-morphing eating disorder to an uneasy truce. Something I did quietly and with little fanfare, beyond it being kind of obvious what I was doing, because, of course, I was shrinking.
I totally internalised all the bullshit about women being neurotic about their diets, their bodies, etc., and made a huge effort to keep my struggle to myself, so I wouldn't be one of those women constantly talking about being on a diet. I made a point of not being a pain in the ass or a bore. And I did it, so yay me, I guess. Now I really don't want to talk about it, I just want to get on with my life and eat and exercise in this moderate and healthy way I have fought SO HARD to achieve, and while I mostly don't mind helping the spouse out, it's impossible for me to stop thinking about food and exercise so much when I now have to do it for a minimum of two people, and often many more than that, since I seem to be regarded by far too many people as some kind of free diet consultant. (This doesn't even get into how I feel about people I barely know commenting on my body, which is not at all happy, thanks.)
So where I'm going with this is to say on Monday, as my husband was getting ready to travel to an on-site job for a few days, I asked him if he wanted a protein shake with his breakfast, because I knew he had a karate class later that night, and wouldn't really have much time to eat properly during the day. (I don't even want to get into our differing opinions on The Protein Thing; I am humouring him totally on this, because it's his body, and if he wants to supplement with that disgusting whey protein isolate, so be it. I don't have to drink it.) There was some agonising, and then yes, he wanted the shake. Awesome. Great. Then he said to me, as he was eating and I had sat down at the table to do some kind of crap household paperwork, that he wished he could avoid making decisions about what/when to eat. That he found it mentally tiring to be asked these questions and it would just be wonderful if I removed the element of choice entirely, and just gave him whatever it was he was supposed to eat. Because thinking about food all the time, when there are so many other things he needs to be thinking about is just too much sometimes. (But of course, he didn't offer never, ever to complain or offer opinions about it, either.)
He's really goddamned lucky I hadn't found this amazing thread yet. That luck is going to run out at some point this weekend.
posted by skybluepink at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2015 [106 favorites]
Yes, I am his (qualified only through my own experience) in-house dietician. All he has to do is go to the gym, and eat what I give him. (And yes, consistently going to the gym isn't all that easy for a lot of people, but he actually enjoys it, so it's not really a challenge for him, personally) All tasty, nutritious, pre-portioned, calorie-counted, Fitting His Fucking Macros. Which he changes all the time, incidentally, depending on what he's reading at the moment. And oh god, the endless conversations we have about this. I am over it. I am glad to help, and I want him to succeed for my own selfish reasons (i.e., I love him and want him around for a long time to come, and he really is a great guy most of the time) but I only was able to get my own shit together through a lot of effort and FINALLY fighting my ever-morphing eating disorder to an uneasy truce. Something I did quietly and with little fanfare, beyond it being kind of obvious what I was doing, because, of course, I was shrinking.
I totally internalised all the bullshit about women being neurotic about their diets, their bodies, etc., and made a huge effort to keep my struggle to myself, so I wouldn't be one of those women constantly talking about being on a diet. I made a point of not being a pain in the ass or a bore. And I did it, so yay me, I guess. Now I really don't want to talk about it, I just want to get on with my life and eat and exercise in this moderate and healthy way I have fought SO HARD to achieve, and while I mostly don't mind helping the spouse out, it's impossible for me to stop thinking about food and exercise so much when I now have to do it for a minimum of two people, and often many more than that, since I seem to be regarded by far too many people as some kind of free diet consultant. (This doesn't even get into how I feel about people I barely know commenting on my body, which is not at all happy, thanks.)
So where I'm going with this is to say on Monday, as my husband was getting ready to travel to an on-site job for a few days, I asked him if he wanted a protein shake with his breakfast, because I knew he had a karate class later that night, and wouldn't really have much time to eat properly during the day. (I don't even want to get into our differing opinions on The Protein Thing; I am humouring him totally on this, because it's his body, and if he wants to supplement with that disgusting whey protein isolate, so be it. I don't have to drink it.) There was some agonising, and then yes, he wanted the shake. Awesome. Great. Then he said to me, as he was eating and I had sat down at the table to do some kind of crap household paperwork, that he wished he could avoid making decisions about what/when to eat. That he found it mentally tiring to be asked these questions and it would just be wonderful if I removed the element of choice entirely, and just gave him whatever it was he was supposed to eat. Because thinking about food all the time, when there are so many other things he needs to be thinking about is just too much sometimes. (But of course, he didn't offer never, ever to complain or offer opinions about it, either.)
He's really goddamned lucky I hadn't found this amazing thread yet. That luck is going to run out at some point this weekend.
posted by skybluepink at 10:35 AM on July 22, 2015 [106 favorites]
That luck is going to run out at some point this weekend.
We should start a separate throwdown thread to detail post-emotional-labor thread come-to-jesus moments with bosses, husbands, friends, boyfriends, mothers, brothers, coworkers, etc.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:39 AM on July 22, 2015 [57 favorites]
We should start a separate throwdown thread to detail post-emotional-labor thread come-to-jesus moments with bosses, husbands, friends, boyfriends, mothers, brothers, coworkers, etc.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:39 AM on July 22, 2015 [57 favorites]
I just wanna say that all of you are amazing.
And that I would totally buy official Crone Island (tm) logo'd stuff.
posted by TwoStride at 10:41 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
And that I would totally buy official Crone Island (tm) logo'd stuff.
posted by TwoStride at 10:41 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've always taken great pleasure in sharing Brady's Why I Want a Wife (linked very early in this thread) with the expository writing classes at the all-girls high school where I teach. Some of it is alien to them, given the differences of time and place. Perhaps unsurprising to most of the commenters here, most of it resonates, and hard.
Susan Maushart's book, Wifework, is where I was introduced to the term emotional labour. It transformed my life with its explanatory power.
Right now is an oddly opportune time for this thread in my life. Infant childcare brings out what I call my feminist resentments with a vengeance. With the newest mini bardophile at not-yet-one-month old, my moments of rage at disproportionate nurturing work are coming fast and furious. No, if the baby is crying, I do not have magical baby comforting spells, I have to struggle to find ways to do it, and you, who aren't still recovering from major surgery and being up all night with clusterfeeding infant, have more available mental energy than I do! Figure it out for the five minutes you're holding him, before you hand him back because the emotional distress of his crying is too much for you to bear, but I should be able to shoulder it 24/7 no problem!
posted by bardophile at 10:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [32 favorites]
Susan Maushart's book, Wifework, is where I was introduced to the term emotional labour. It transformed my life with its explanatory power.
Right now is an oddly opportune time for this thread in my life. Infant childcare brings out what I call my feminist resentments with a vengeance. With the newest mini bardophile at not-yet-one-month old, my moments of rage at disproportionate nurturing work are coming fast and furious. No, if the baby is crying, I do not have magical baby comforting spells, I have to struggle to find ways to do it, and you, who aren't still recovering from major surgery and being up all night with clusterfeeding infant, have more available mental energy than I do! Figure it out for the five minutes you're holding him, before you hand him back because the emotional distress of his crying is too much for you to bear, but I should be able to shoulder it 24/7 no problem!
posted by bardophile at 10:44 AM on July 22, 2015 [32 favorites]
It's not a separate, male way of being-- it's an absence of effort. An absence of work.
God, yeah. It's so easy to intellectualize it but so hard to internalize it. So many women who date men spend months, years, decades castigating themselves for an apparent failure to contort their inner and outer selves in JUST THE RIGHT WAY -- because, she assumes, if she was Doing It Right, her significant other would deign to show her love and/or respect, would pick up at least some of the emotional labor or the housework, or at least that he would listen to her when she speaks.
Spoiler alert, though: The reason he's not listening to you isn't because you're not good or worthy, it isn't because you're a nag, it isn't because you're failing at being a woman, it isn't because you're crazy. The reason he's not listening to you is because HE DOESN'T CARE. He just doesn't. Your pain and discomfort is not important enough to him for him to stop doing the things that hurt you, even if not doing those things would make his own life easier. I know it hurts, god, do I ever fucking know, but it's true, and once you realize it, everything will start making sense again, and eventually, you'll stop throwing pearls before swine, good money after bad. Ten years of my life out the window in honor of that godforsaken nonsense, a decade spent convincing myself that I was crazy, that I was asking too much in asking for anything at all. Never again.
On an aside, Crone Island made it to the sidebar, so we're probably gonna have to invest in an industrial-sized margarita machine and some lime trees! #croneworldproblems
I love you all.
posted by divined by radio at 10:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [92 favorites]
God, yeah. It's so easy to intellectualize it but so hard to internalize it. So many women who date men spend months, years, decades castigating themselves for an apparent failure to contort their inner and outer selves in JUST THE RIGHT WAY -- because, she assumes, if she was Doing It Right, her significant other would deign to show her love and/or respect, would pick up at least some of the emotional labor or the housework, or at least that he would listen to her when she speaks.
Spoiler alert, though: The reason he's not listening to you isn't because you're not good or worthy, it isn't because you're a nag, it isn't because you're failing at being a woman, it isn't because you're crazy. The reason he's not listening to you is because HE DOESN'T CARE. He just doesn't. Your pain and discomfort is not important enough to him for him to stop doing the things that hurt you, even if not doing those things would make his own life easier. I know it hurts, god, do I ever fucking know, but it's true, and once you realize it, everything will start making sense again, and eventually, you'll stop throwing pearls before swine, good money after bad. Ten years of my life out the window in honor of that godforsaken nonsense, a decade spent convincing myself that I was crazy, that I was asking too much in asking for anything at all. Never again.
On an aside, Crone Island made it to the sidebar, so we're probably gonna have to invest in an industrial-sized margarita machine and some lime trees! #croneworldproblems
I love you all.
posted by divined by radio at 10:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [92 favorites]
skybluepink (I love your username btw), that made me want to scream. I am screaming inside for you.
And yes, the whole "but when can we bang again??" thing after giving birth... I will be like, never. Never again can we bang. Goodbye forever. (jk I will be like "let me manage your expectations gracefully and carefully, I am a woman." Also jk because this is something my boyfriend is quite chill about! Men, it is possible.)
It really hurts me how much emotional management women have to do around sex (also forgot to mention like, not asking for toys or anything in the bedroom that will actually allow us to orgasm, because again, ego damage, even though it helps so many women). Like did it occur to anyone that we might want to enjoy sex? That it might be relaxing for us and not another venue for constant performance? All those times people insist on how men and women are just different-- maybe during this one time, sex, where men and women are frequently DEMONSTRATIVELY different, we could treat women the way they'd like to be treated sexually and not shame them for not being porn actresses (i.e., pretending to be a giant, male-ish erogenous zone)? We could remember that their sexuality is special and that they have a clitoris? And that what works for men might not work for women, for obvious physiological reasons, which men just don't want to think about?
We spend so much time and energy as a society talking about how men are comforted and affirmed and soothed by sex and never stop to think about why the same isn't true for women. It's because women efface their own needs to satisfy those of men. Sigh.
Also, w.r.t. pregnancy and parenting and giving birth, it drives me CRAZY when women post to the Green about how their husbands/male partners are freaking out about becoming a new parent. Acting distant and defensive and claiming they're not ready. As if the woman is not freaking out, as opposed to just literally having no option to run away and hide. The idea that "daddy angst" (that manifests in checking out, cheating on their partner, etc.) is like this special, specific thing that needs to be acknowledged instead of just the same old shittiness that is frankly ridiculous.
posted by easter queen at 10:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [53 favorites]
And yes, the whole "but when can we bang again??" thing after giving birth... I will be like, never. Never again can we bang. Goodbye forever. (jk I will be like "let me manage your expectations gracefully and carefully, I am a woman." Also jk because this is something my boyfriend is quite chill about! Men, it is possible.)
It really hurts me how much emotional management women have to do around sex (also forgot to mention like, not asking for toys or anything in the bedroom that will actually allow us to orgasm, because again, ego damage, even though it helps so many women). Like did it occur to anyone that we might want to enjoy sex? That it might be relaxing for us and not another venue for constant performance? All those times people insist on how men and women are just different-- maybe during this one time, sex, where men and women are frequently DEMONSTRATIVELY different, we could treat women the way they'd like to be treated sexually and not shame them for not being porn actresses (i.e., pretending to be a giant, male-ish erogenous zone)? We could remember that their sexuality is special and that they have a clitoris? And that what works for men might not work for women, for obvious physiological reasons, which men just don't want to think about?
We spend so much time and energy as a society talking about how men are comforted and affirmed and soothed by sex and never stop to think about why the same isn't true for women. It's because women efface their own needs to satisfy those of men. Sigh.
Also, w.r.t. pregnancy and parenting and giving birth, it drives me CRAZY when women post to the Green about how their husbands/male partners are freaking out about becoming a new parent. Acting distant and defensive and claiming they're not ready. As if the woman is not freaking out, as opposed to just literally having no option to run away and hide. The idea that "daddy angst" (that manifests in checking out, cheating on their partner, etc.) is like this special, specific thing that needs to be acknowledged instead of just the same old shittiness that is frankly ridiculous.
posted by easter queen at 10:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [53 favorites]
bardophile, when my now 6-year-old was a newborn, mr. sutel turned to me in the car one day and said to me, "I'm so happy! I'm just so happy! Everything is so great! Aren't you happy?" I was sitting there with unwashed hair, a nursing bra that was sticky with milk, running on about two hours sleep. He was stunned when I said, "No, not really." I had to point out to him that my life had just been completely turned upside down - major surgery, pain, sore nipples, leaking milk everywhere, up every two hours to nurse, unable to leave the house without the baby because of said nursing, etc., and his life had barely changed except for maybe sometimes he woke up at night when he heard the baby crying.
He's better now but that was definitely a lightbulb moment.
posted by sutel at 10:48 AM on July 22, 2015 [47 favorites]
He's better now but that was definitely a lightbulb moment.
posted by sutel at 10:48 AM on July 22, 2015 [47 favorites]
easter queen: This is a whole thing I've never acknowledged before-- that being a female partner in a straight relationship means a BUTTLOAD of emotional labor around sex, that you really really can't talk about, because there is so much male fragility on this issue.
HELL YES. I hadn't even thought of this. Yet as soon as I read your comment, there he was popping up right in my head: Mr Previous, complaining that I 'was ruining the mood' if I told him that it hurt when he was rough or clumsy (or just impatient) during sex. So, never mind MY mood, whenever he did something that hurt me, I couldn't just go 'Ouch, that was a bit too rough, sweetie', no... I needed to word my pain in a gentle and, I guess, sexy way, in order not to ruin his precious, precious mood.
Of course, this was the same guy who got impatient during foreplay, and asked me if he couldn't just stick it in every now and then, without all of that hoopla? And then I had to be gentle again while I tried to explain that that's not how vaginas work. Or at the very least not mine.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
HELL YES. I hadn't even thought of this. Yet as soon as I read your comment, there he was popping up right in my head: Mr Previous, complaining that I 'was ruining the mood' if I told him that it hurt when he was rough or clumsy (or just impatient) during sex. So, never mind MY mood, whenever he did something that hurt me, I couldn't just go 'Ouch, that was a bit too rough, sweetie', no... I needed to word my pain in a gentle and, I guess, sexy way, in order not to ruin his precious, precious mood.
Of course, this was the same guy who got impatient during foreplay, and asked me if he couldn't just stick it in every now and then, without all of that hoopla? And then I had to be gentle again while I tried to explain that that's not how vaginas work. Or at the very least not mine.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
Minor aside: in my head, I keep hearing "crone island" sung to the tune of Sandra Boynton's "Pig Island" song.
posted by rmd1023 at 10:53 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 10:53 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have read this entire thread over the past several days and I'm grateful that my husband DOES do some of the emotional labor (he is in charge of gifts, cards, etc. for his side of the family and I am responsible for mine). I saw my mom struggle because my dad made her deal with his difficult mother (HIS MOTHER! Not hers!). She's the one that had to talk to his sisters about various things, not him. And my dad is a great guy and he's always been appreciative of what my mom has done... I think except in that one area. He'd always thank her for throwing a party but I'd never hear him thank her for dealing with my grandma. Who knows, maybe he did when I wasn't around.
But so much of this thread resonates with me. So much in my personal life, and in my professional life. I'm still mulling over how to raise my 3-year-old son to pull his fair share of emotional labor and this is giving me a lot of food for thought.
Hugs to everyone who's had shit-ass partners and shit-ass experiences due to the burden of taking on all the emotional labor. I'll see you on Crone Islane.
posted by sutel at 10:54 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
But so much of this thread resonates with me. So much in my personal life, and in my professional life. I'm still mulling over how to raise my 3-year-old son to pull his fair share of emotional labor and this is giving me a lot of food for thought.
Hugs to everyone who's had shit-ass partners and shit-ass experiences due to the burden of taking on all the emotional labor. I'll see you on Crone Islane.
posted by sutel at 10:54 AM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I just saw this on Tumblr and it seems relevant. I'll cut and paste here because...Tumblr:
"And this trope of ‘You are a terrible person if you block or ban or mute people’ is one of the most common forms of Internet harassment–especially for women. It’s extra insidious because, to people who aren’t clued in to the reality of being a feminist woman on the Internet, it can sound very reasonable. The mere fact of having boundaries, the mere fact of making decisions about who we are and aren’t willing to engage with, gets us framed as close-minded, non-skeptical, censorious, fascist bitches. When it’s aimed at women, this ‘How dare you block or ban or mute!’ trope basically means, ‘You have no right to have boundaries. It is your job to listen, patiently and politely, for as long as people want to talk. Men have the floor, and women are the audience. You are a woman, and that means you’re a public commodity, and you have to give access to yourself to anyone who wants it. Quit whining, and engage with every asshole who wants to engage with you.’"
—
Greta Christina, “A Few Quick Notes About Blocking, Muting, Unfriending, and Banning”
Or, hell, the idea that you should have to JUSTIFY blocking or muting people. That’s the difference between muting or blocking and reporting: the first two are about personal agency and preference. You are not obliged to give someone else a platform for their shit, or justify your decision not to, any more than you are obliged to watch every channel on your television.
(via postcardsfromspace)
-- end c&p
Personally, I love me some block button, and if my Twitter account attracted more than the occasional tantrum-throwing rando, I would be all over those blocklists that some people have made available.
posted by wintersweet at 10:56 AM on July 22, 2015 [40 favorites]
"And this trope of ‘You are a terrible person if you block or ban or mute people’ is one of the most common forms of Internet harassment–especially for women. It’s extra insidious because, to people who aren’t clued in to the reality of being a feminist woman on the Internet, it can sound very reasonable. The mere fact of having boundaries, the mere fact of making decisions about who we are and aren’t willing to engage with, gets us framed as close-minded, non-skeptical, censorious, fascist bitches. When it’s aimed at women, this ‘How dare you block or ban or mute!’ trope basically means, ‘You have no right to have boundaries. It is your job to listen, patiently and politely, for as long as people want to talk. Men have the floor, and women are the audience. You are a woman, and that means you’re a public commodity, and you have to give access to yourself to anyone who wants it. Quit whining, and engage with every asshole who wants to engage with you.’"
—
Greta Christina, “A Few Quick Notes About Blocking, Muting, Unfriending, and Banning”
Or, hell, the idea that you should have to JUSTIFY blocking or muting people. That’s the difference between muting or blocking and reporting: the first two are about personal agency and preference. You are not obliged to give someone else a platform for their shit, or justify your decision not to, any more than you are obliged to watch every channel on your television.
(via postcardsfromspace)
-- end c&p
Personally, I love me some block button, and if my Twitter account attracted more than the occasional tantrum-throwing rando, I would be all over those blocklists that some people have made available.
posted by wintersweet at 10:56 AM on July 22, 2015 [40 favorites]
Next family get together I'm going to get my cousins to do the clean-up with me. Both male and female.
This thread made me realize that I have been unconsciously being stubborn about doing clean-up because it always bugged me that all the guys got to sit a do cool stuff. I want to do cool stuff! So I did and then it just became habit that Mom's generation of females did clean-up. It's a little weird because I grew up with my Dad always doing dinner clean-up because it's just fair that if Mom cooked he cleaned-up but for some reason at holiday time it really does get gendered.
So every holiday I go through this guilt pang of seeing the clean-up happening and debating about it but never doing it more in more then a cursory move a few plates around way. This thread made me realize that the main reason beyond ingrained habit is that I don't want to be the only frickin one of my generation to take on the cleaning role because I know that as time goes on and Mom's generation becomes older it will be required due to age reasons and I don't want it to fall to me by default because I'm the oldest cousin and a woman.
Thing is my Mom's generation shouldn't be expected to do all the work because it's just wrong. They're doing it because of expectation and that's the way it's always been.
Next family dinner it's time for my generation male and female to step up and take on this part of family affairs. I don't see much resistance to it. It's more just people acting in an 'its always been this way' thing. If there is at least now I have vocabulary and ways of talking about it in ways I didn't have before.
I don't mind doing emotional labor in this situation and I know as our family ages that it will fall more to me to organize and keep things happening. I'm totally okay with that as long as I'm not doing it alone. Might as well start setting the expectation stage now.
posted by Jalliah at 10:59 AM on July 22, 2015 [23 favorites]
This thread made me realize that I have been unconsciously being stubborn about doing clean-up because it always bugged me that all the guys got to sit a do cool stuff. I want to do cool stuff! So I did and then it just became habit that Mom's generation of females did clean-up. It's a little weird because I grew up with my Dad always doing dinner clean-up because it's just fair that if Mom cooked he cleaned-up but for some reason at holiday time it really does get gendered.
So every holiday I go through this guilt pang of seeing the clean-up happening and debating about it but never doing it more in more then a cursory move a few plates around way. This thread made me realize that the main reason beyond ingrained habit is that I don't want to be the only frickin one of my generation to take on the cleaning role because I know that as time goes on and Mom's generation becomes older it will be required due to age reasons and I don't want it to fall to me by default because I'm the oldest cousin and a woman.
Thing is my Mom's generation shouldn't be expected to do all the work because it's just wrong. They're doing it because of expectation and that's the way it's always been.
Next family dinner it's time for my generation male and female to step up and take on this part of family affairs. I don't see much resistance to it. It's more just people acting in an 'its always been this way' thing. If there is at least now I have vocabulary and ways of talking about it in ways I didn't have before.
I don't mind doing emotional labor in this situation and I know as our family ages that it will fall more to me to organize and keep things happening. I'm totally okay with that as long as I'm not doing it alone. Might as well start setting the expectation stage now.
posted by Jalliah at 10:59 AM on July 22, 2015 [23 favorites]
Holy shit. This. My husband doesn't want me to work full-time anymore because "it makes you angry". No - work makes me stressed out. Being asked "what's for dinner" the second I walk in the door makes me angry. So does responding to my attempts to describe whichever awful work situation is stressing me out with "Oh yeah? That's nothing. (Insert competing story here.)"
Ha. I got, "Why do you read all that feminism online? It just makes you angry. I think you should stop." Huh, I wonder why.
posted by jaguar at 11:00 AM on July 22, 2015 [68 favorites]
Ha. I got, "Why do you read all that feminism online? It just makes you angry. I think you should stop." Huh, I wonder why.
posted by jaguar at 11:00 AM on July 22, 2015 [68 favorites]
and after your 6 week checkup your partner only wants to know if the doctor gave you the all-clear for sex.
So creepy! Like, the dude is willing to accept on someone else's authority that you are not ready for sex, and not even ask, 'Hey, are you ready to have sex again?'
posted by palindromic at 11:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
So creepy! Like, the dude is willing to accept on someone else's authority that you are not ready for sex, and not even ask, 'Hey, are you ready to have sex again?'
posted by palindromic at 11:01 AM on July 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
Heh, sutel, yes. My biggest concern about having a second child was the memory of how upsetting I find the total revolution in my life. When our first child was still just a few months old, and I was missing the career I had to take a longer than intended break from, for a variety of reasons, I won a free trip to Barcelona (student nominated lottery entry), that I totally couldn't avail because I was breastfeeding. Meanwhile, mr bardophile was doing a number of work-related international trips. He looked completely bewildered when I told him he owed me a trip to Spain. I don't think he understands even now, assuming he even remembers the incident.
The funny thing is, in some ways, he's much more of a natural on the emotional labour don't. He picks birthday presents out weeks, sometimes months in advance, for example, while I tend to procrastinate to the eleventh hour.
posted by bardophile at 11:07 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
The funny thing is, in some ways, he's much more of a natural on the emotional labour don't. He picks birthday presents out weeks, sometimes months in advance, for example, while I tend to procrastinate to the eleventh hour.
posted by bardophile at 11:07 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
> Is the reason most comment sections are rotten stinky places that no one is doing emotional labor? So very much of what we ask the mods here to do is emotional labor. Be the balwark between us and chaos. Be level headed when others are not. Bring the temperature down. Nurture the community.
Oh my god, this. I mean, I'm late to the conversation, but this has been shrieking at me since I saw it this morning and then got derailed by gently nurturing three separate undergrads to develop their projects and the conflict I'm dealing with for the support/socializing group I run which may mean that I have to self-monitor myself even more at what is supposed to be my own safe space and flagging shit here and just. I have so many feelings about this one.
The thing is, I was actually just talking to my partner last night because I struggle with a certain amount of compulsion to engage in community activism and make my social spaces better when I notice anyone talking about how they're feeling excluded/left out. I like to think I'm pretty good at it. But that emotional labor to make a community good has such a cost, because I feel like I am constantly monitoring people and especially myself to make everyone else as comfortable as possible around me. Which means that between that aspect of my social life and my actual paid job as a grad student/teaching assistant/occasional tutor, I wind up in teaching mode all the time and I almost never get to completely relax even around my friends.
One thing I love about Metafilter is that we have actual mods I can flag and move on from shitty stuff, so at least I can try and convince my hindbrain that I can flag nasty shit and move on instead of being compelled to stand up and say something about it. And man, I actually trust the mods here more than I have in any community I've ever been in to have my back. But I have been investing myself in doing a lot of heavy lifting in terms of emotional labor in basically every social group I have been in for five years now and I am so tired and I just want to not do this but the work always needs doing and I keep getting caught up in the desire to make just one more nudge or do that one thing I have the expertise to do or drop that one note and make sure that nudge gets followed up on...
trying not to cry at work right now. just. it's overwhelming. and the emotional labor is work that needs doing, communities need people to monitor them and moderate them, but I don't have infinite resources and I can see so many rough edges that need smoothing. how do you take that step back? I'm so burned out and tired. how do you stop caring and prioritize yourself first?
posted by sciatrix at 11:07 AM on July 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
Oh my god, this. I mean, I'm late to the conversation, but this has been shrieking at me since I saw it this morning and then got derailed by gently nurturing three separate undergrads to develop their projects and the conflict I'm dealing with for the support/socializing group I run which may mean that I have to self-monitor myself even more at what is supposed to be my own safe space and flagging shit here and just. I have so many feelings about this one.
The thing is, I was actually just talking to my partner last night because I struggle with a certain amount of compulsion to engage in community activism and make my social spaces better when I notice anyone talking about how they're feeling excluded/left out. I like to think I'm pretty good at it. But that emotional labor to make a community good has such a cost, because I feel like I am constantly monitoring people and especially myself to make everyone else as comfortable as possible around me. Which means that between that aspect of my social life and my actual paid job as a grad student/teaching assistant/occasional tutor, I wind up in teaching mode all the time and I almost never get to completely relax even around my friends.
One thing I love about Metafilter is that we have actual mods I can flag and move on from shitty stuff, so at least I can try and convince my hindbrain that I can flag nasty shit and move on instead of being compelled to stand up and say something about it. And man, I actually trust the mods here more than I have in any community I've ever been in to have my back. But I have been investing myself in doing a lot of heavy lifting in terms of emotional labor in basically every social group I have been in for five years now and I am so tired and I just want to not do this but the work always needs doing and I keep getting caught up in the desire to make just one more nudge or do that one thing I have the expertise to do or drop that one note and make sure that nudge gets followed up on...
trying not to cry at work right now. just. it's overwhelming. and the emotional labor is work that needs doing, communities need people to monitor them and moderate them, but I don't have infinite resources and I can see so many rough edges that need smoothing. how do you take that step back? I'm so burned out and tired. how do you stop caring and prioritize yourself first?
posted by sciatrix at 11:07 AM on July 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
was this person raised by wolves?
He was certainly influenced by them! Until his Mom stopped doing lots of big family dinners (now she only does one a year), I was always HORRIFIED by the way they acted about food. I mean, they're all grown-assed men now, but they still scrap and fuss and jab each other with forks and steal from each others' plates when we get together. And I used to think that MIL should have taught them some manners, but then I got over myself and realized that she was a SAHM of SEVEN children until the husband was in middle school. THEN she went back to her nursing career. She did the best she could while extremely outnumbered, and she's no longer responsible for their lack of manners, it's on them to grow the fuck up.
When I get the "It's just not my favorite" whine, my response is always that I'm not going to change a godsdamned thing about the recipe if that's all he's got. Elder Monster, who is a chef, tells him the same thing. Either articulate what it is that you don't care for, or shut the fuck up and eat it as is, or go make yourself something else.
Or, I want to come home and unwind by talking about my day and my significant other tells me I need to de-stress before entering the house because he doesn't want to listen to me *bitch* about it.
I work from home, and have done since 2002. I recently managed to land actual employment at home, rather than the usual freelance/contract arrangement. It's a mentally taxing job - iOS Technical Support, so I'm on the phone all day while walking customers through troubleshooting and logging everything. He doesn't quite get why I'm uninterested in doing more than having dinner and a few cocktails, then vegetate before I drag myself into bed. After all, all I do is look at my computer all day!
And it's especially horrific after you've been pregnant for nine months, went through labor, spent the next 6 weeks trying to become a mother and no sleep and remembering to eat and do laundry and leaking milk and just being fucking EXHAUSTED and after your 6 week checkup your partner only wants to know if the doctor gave you the all-clear for sex. OMFG because yeah, that's the first question I had for the doctor, "Can I start getting banged again?!"
The husband asked about this while I was getting THIRTY TWO STITCHES after a deep perineal tear delivering Elder Monster. Can I tell you how much I LOVE my OB-GYN? LOVE! He stared at the husband and said "She just suffered a deep perineal tear that is going to take several months to heal. If you so much as THINK about sex in her general direction before she is 100% healed and feeling frisky herself? I will tear your testicles off and give them back in a ziploc."
Dr. Shah was perfection incarnate.
posted by MissySedai at 11:19 AM on July 22, 2015 [135 favorites]
He was certainly influenced by them! Until his Mom stopped doing lots of big family dinners (now she only does one a year), I was always HORRIFIED by the way they acted about food. I mean, they're all grown-assed men now, but they still scrap and fuss and jab each other with forks and steal from each others' plates when we get together. And I used to think that MIL should have taught them some manners, but then I got over myself and realized that she was a SAHM of SEVEN children until the husband was in middle school. THEN she went back to her nursing career. She did the best she could while extremely outnumbered, and she's no longer responsible for their lack of manners, it's on them to grow the fuck up.
When I get the "It's just not my favorite" whine, my response is always that I'm not going to change a godsdamned thing about the recipe if that's all he's got. Elder Monster, who is a chef, tells him the same thing. Either articulate what it is that you don't care for, or shut the fuck up and eat it as is, or go make yourself something else.
Or, I want to come home and unwind by talking about my day and my significant other tells me I need to de-stress before entering the house because he doesn't want to listen to me *bitch* about it.
I work from home, and have done since 2002. I recently managed to land actual employment at home, rather than the usual freelance/contract arrangement. It's a mentally taxing job - iOS Technical Support, so I'm on the phone all day while walking customers through troubleshooting and logging everything. He doesn't quite get why I'm uninterested in doing more than having dinner and a few cocktails, then vegetate before I drag myself into bed. After all, all I do is look at my computer all day!
And it's especially horrific after you've been pregnant for nine months, went through labor, spent the next 6 weeks trying to become a mother and no sleep and remembering to eat and do laundry and leaking milk and just being fucking EXHAUSTED and after your 6 week checkup your partner only wants to know if the doctor gave you the all-clear for sex. OMFG because yeah, that's the first question I had for the doctor, "Can I start getting banged again?!"
The husband asked about this while I was getting THIRTY TWO STITCHES after a deep perineal tear delivering Elder Monster. Can I tell you how much I LOVE my OB-GYN? LOVE! He stared at the husband and said "She just suffered a deep perineal tear that is going to take several months to heal. If you so much as THINK about sex in her general direction before she is 100% healed and feeling frisky herself? I will tear your testicles off and give them back in a ziploc."
Dr. Shah was perfection incarnate.
posted by MissySedai at 11:19 AM on July 22, 2015 [135 favorites]
You know, I also think this is part of the unvocalized censure from women about sex work. Of course there's also the jealousy component and pearl-clutching and all of that, but subconsciously I've always felt that it's just so massively ridiculous that not only can women not have the sex we want, without an excess of emotional labor, with our male partners, but we can't even pay for someone to give it to us. At least not in the casual way a man can. Meanwhile, men can demand it from their partners and garner sympathy for cheating because "needs" and pay for it any time they can afford it.
There is no strip club I can just go to and creep about and let men utterly gratify my senses, not because I don't WANT that (we're animals!! I want it like I want to pig out on snack cakes!) but because I'm socialized to pretend I am better and more virtuous than that and will do the sex work for my partner and ignore that I would like someone to do it for myself. The only way I can activly objectify a real man who is physically present is if I do it with a wink, at a kitschy club-- certainly I can never do it with a partner (men have too much dignity to let us objectify them for our pleasure in any way that doesn't resemble male worship). Meanwhile, women are being told they should shave and do anal. Women's needs are so utterly invisible.
I remember during my sexual awakening as a teen how voracious I was-- I read the smuttiest smut, about women doing things to men and men doing things to other men. Men were sexual objects! I was a huge pervert! I was a voyeur* and a leerer, like any teenage boy. As I got older and the pressure to be "marriage-material" grew in my life, I basically suppressed my sexuality-- it was too embarassing, too ridiculous, too impossible. The effort to enjoy that was not consonant with my identity as a woman. Most straight men are NOT down with that stuff.
And men wonder why so many women are sexually distant. They think that if women just "woke up," they'd enjoy the sex that men want to have and be more open to the kinks that they themselves enjoy. Not only does it never occur to them that women have flattened out their own sexuality in service of male sexual dominance (they have been objectified within an inch of their own feelings), it also does not occur that the sex women want to have might be totally foreign, alienating, and overwhelming to them (much like the male gaze/porn culture is to women). Objectification might take its toll on them. In a future utopia that I can only imagine a million years from now.
I would be a supporter of legalized sex work if it ameliorated the horrible humanitarian fall-out of the current industry, but I am also profoundly uneasy about a culture that makes it so easy for men to get what they want, commodified and utterly divorced from any emotional effort or attention, while denying that thing to women at almost every turn (and making us labor to provide it for free).
*Not only that, but I was not a seasoned voyeur, because I didn't watch porn, I read erotica. Because women are just verbal and emotional and prefer erotica? No, because I could not FIND pornography for myself. It didn't exist. I tried!
posted by easter queen at 11:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [96 favorites]
There is no strip club I can just go to and creep about and let men utterly gratify my senses, not because I don't WANT that (we're animals!! I want it like I want to pig out on snack cakes!) but because I'm socialized to pretend I am better and more virtuous than that and will do the sex work for my partner and ignore that I would like someone to do it for myself. The only way I can activly objectify a real man who is physically present is if I do it with a wink, at a kitschy club-- certainly I can never do it with a partner (men have too much dignity to let us objectify them for our pleasure in any way that doesn't resemble male worship). Meanwhile, women are being told they should shave and do anal. Women's needs are so utterly invisible.
I remember during my sexual awakening as a teen how voracious I was-- I read the smuttiest smut, about women doing things to men and men doing things to other men. Men were sexual objects! I was a huge pervert! I was a voyeur* and a leerer, like any teenage boy. As I got older and the pressure to be "marriage-material" grew in my life, I basically suppressed my sexuality-- it was too embarassing, too ridiculous, too impossible. The effort to enjoy that was not consonant with my identity as a woman. Most straight men are NOT down with that stuff.
And men wonder why so many women are sexually distant. They think that if women just "woke up," they'd enjoy the sex that men want to have and be more open to the kinks that they themselves enjoy. Not only does it never occur to them that women have flattened out their own sexuality in service of male sexual dominance (they have been objectified within an inch of their own feelings), it also does not occur that the sex women want to have might be totally foreign, alienating, and overwhelming to them (much like the male gaze/porn culture is to women). Objectification might take its toll on them. In a future utopia that I can only imagine a million years from now.
I would be a supporter of legalized sex work if it ameliorated the horrible humanitarian fall-out of the current industry, but I am also profoundly uneasy about a culture that makes it so easy for men to get what they want, commodified and utterly divorced from any emotional effort or attention, while denying that thing to women at almost every turn (and making us labor to provide it for free).
*Not only that, but I was not a seasoned voyeur, because I didn't watch porn, I read erotica. Because women are just verbal and emotional and prefer erotica? No, because I could not FIND pornography for myself. It didn't exist. I tried!
posted by easter queen at 11:24 AM on July 22, 2015 [96 favorites]
MissySedai, despite what you've described about your husband's malfeasance, I can tell that you really love and care about your kids, and it seems like you raised them to be 100x more savvy and self-aware. They sound emotionally literate and fun to be around. Kudos for that.
posted by easter queen at 11:26 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 11:26 AM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
oh hell,
I was friends with a guy for a while and on one trip to visit his folks I got incredibly sick and threw up on the floor and he gave me stuff so I could clean up my own vomit.
posted by bleary at 11:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
then; this was just the "OK, I'm done now" event). This guy I was dating flew to my state to visit me for a few days, and just before he arrived, I came down with a monstrous case of laryngitis, of the Must Scream to Produce Even a Raspy Whisper variety. So I drag myself 50 miles to the airport, pick him up, drive back, stop for take-out, and come home to collapse
I was friends with a guy for a while and on one trip to visit his folks I got incredibly sick and threw up on the floor and he gave me stuff so I could clean up my own vomit.
posted by bleary at 11:28 AM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
(Also I feel bad about calling a world where we objectify men til they can't feel a "utopia," it's not a utopia, there's a better way! There has to be!)
posted by easter queen at 11:30 AM on July 22, 2015
posted by easter queen at 11:30 AM on July 22, 2015
I wish I knew how to draw better. I really want to make a Crone Island comic now.
posted by Jalliah at 11:31 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Jalliah at 11:31 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Welp... these threads have made my OK Cupid experience a lot more interesting. Now when I'm scrolling through a dude's answers to the matching questions I'm all like, "lol nope, can't believe you think wanting free martial arts lessons instead of free cooking lessons is a dealbreaker, learn to cook for yourself while i kick your ass fuckboy". I'm probably never getting laid again but the frisson of joy I get from not even wanting to contort my own matching question responses to fit anyone's desires more closely is worth it. Plus Babeland is like a ten minute walk away, I'll be fine.
posted by palomar at 11:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by palomar at 11:32 AM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
"She just suffered a deep perineal tear that is going to take several months to heal. If you so much as THINK about sex in her general direction before she is 100% healed and feeling frisky herself? I will tear your testicles off and give them back in a ziploc."
OMG. Best doctor EVAR.
posted by XtinaS at 11:33 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
OMG. Best doctor EVAR.
posted by XtinaS at 11:33 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I was going to get you flowers but I didn't. I was going to... ...but I didn't.
I had almost forgotten this story about my ex, but he always made sure to tell me the reason that I didn't get flowers on Valentine's Day was that they were too expensive because the price was jacked up, and the reason I didn't get a special Valentine's Day dinner out was that the prices were jacked up. Not that this meant I got a special date any other time or flowers just for the hell of it. (This is a cautionary tale I told men when I was dating. The one I married listened to it.)
Then he said to me, as he was eating and I had sat down at the table to do some kind of crap household paperwork, that he wished he could avoid making decisions about what/when to eat. That he found it mentally tiring to be asked these questions and it would just be wonderful if I removed the element of choice entirely, and just gave him whatever it was he was supposed to eat. Because thinking about food all the time, when there are so many other things he needs to be thinking about is just too much sometimes.
There's a thing with diabetic men where they frequently get very sick or even die after their partners leave/die because their wives have been taking full responsibility for their meals and they have no idea how to cook or choose foods. Not only should you dump that emotional labor for your sake, he should be doing the mental work of knowing what's in his food for his own sake.
posted by immlass at 11:33 AM on July 22, 2015 [44 favorites]
I had almost forgotten this story about my ex, but he always made sure to tell me the reason that I didn't get flowers on Valentine's Day was that they were too expensive because the price was jacked up, and the reason I didn't get a special Valentine's Day dinner out was that the prices were jacked up. Not that this meant I got a special date any other time or flowers just for the hell of it. (This is a cautionary tale I told men when I was dating. The one I married listened to it.)
Then he said to me, as he was eating and I had sat down at the table to do some kind of crap household paperwork, that he wished he could avoid making decisions about what/when to eat. That he found it mentally tiring to be asked these questions and it would just be wonderful if I removed the element of choice entirely, and just gave him whatever it was he was supposed to eat. Because thinking about food all the time, when there are so many other things he needs to be thinking about is just too much sometimes.
There's a thing with diabetic men where they frequently get very sick or even die after their partners leave/die because their wives have been taking full responsibility for their meals and they have no idea how to cook or choose foods. Not only should you dump that emotional labor for your sake, he should be doing the mental work of knowing what's in his food for his own sake.
posted by immlass at 11:33 AM on July 22, 2015 [44 favorites]
Not only does it never occur to them that women have flattened out their own sexuality in service of male sexual dominance (they have been objectified within an inch of their own feelings), it also does not occur that the sex women want to have might be totally foreign, alienating, and overwhelming to them (much like the male gaze/porn culture is to women).
Reading this gave me chills. I so recognize myself in your description of yourself as a teen, and this puts words to something I have known is true for several years now and have halfheartedly resolved to work out with myself. I feel 100% safe to explore my sexuality in my current relationship, it's not about the guy; some of it is just that I'm an adult now and have other shit to worry about that takes precedence over my sex life, but also the programming is just so strong.
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
Reading this gave me chills. I so recognize myself in your description of yourself as a teen, and this puts words to something I have known is true for several years now and have halfheartedly resolved to work out with myself. I feel 100% safe to explore my sexuality in my current relationship, it's not about the guy; some of it is just that I'm an adult now and have other shit to worry about that takes precedence over my sex life, but also the programming is just so strong.
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:35 AM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
Not to beat a dead horse, but it has always made me laugh when men say they want a woman who "takes care of herself" (i.e., diets, works out, does her hair, makeup, nails). Meanwhile, so many of these men literally cannot take care of themselves
posted by easter queen at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [100 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [100 favorites]
This is a whole thing I've never acknowledged before-- that being a female partner in a straight relationship means a BUTTLOAD of emotional labor around sex, that you really really can't talk about, because there is so much male fragility on this issue.
I once had a hookup where the guy got his rocks off after only a few minutes and then got up and started getting dressed to leave. And I had absolutely no problem calling him out, all "yo. Dude. I get a turn too." ....and I also had absolutely no problem about telling him to fuck off when he tried to look me up later.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
....Out of the boudoir that houses me,But seriously - I have no idea why, but I have never had any qualm about asking for what I want, speaking up about what I want, and laying down the law about what I don't want when it comes to sex. It could be because I just always had a strong sense of Self, or it could be because when it came to sex my parents just gave me the basic facts and then pretended the whole topic didn't exist, so I somehow didn't end up getting as indoctrinated into the whole gender-role weirdness so many other women do, or whether it was that fantastic human sexuality course I took. Doesn't matter - I'm so freakin' glad it shook down this way.
Where I've oft enjoyed men of fine wit,
I thank whatever gods may be
That I've never put up with this bullshit.
I once had a hookup where the guy got his rocks off after only a few minutes and then got up and started getting dressed to leave. And I had absolutely no problem calling him out, all "yo. Dude. I get a turn too." ....and I also had absolutely no problem about telling him to fuck off when he tried to look me up later.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:36 AM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
i've heard the term bandwidth used to describe the amount of attention one can devote to any particular issue or problem (like on the emotional 'axis' gaslighting might be considered a kind of mental DoS attack on someone) and i was thinking about how people locate on different areas of the spectrum and the concept of a 'personbyte' combine to inform the characteristics of collective organisation -- for better or worse -- whether it's a marriage, family, or larger enterprise, and the metaknowledge that every member should have on hand in order for proper functioning; a culture if you will. maybe this is too abstract and buzzwordy, speaking of new terms, vocabulary and language to describe mental resources that can be attached under the rubric of emotional and affective labor -- exploring new territory? -- but it's helped me at least consider the patriarchy in new light, and ways to improve it! (if not burn it to the ground ;) like i'm always interested in structures of power (and violence) and how to communicate thru them...
which, btw, brings to mind this interview i just read with #364 (#1's employer) about empathy in the workplace:
posted by kliuless at 11:42 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
which, btw, brings to mind this interview i just read with #364 (#1's employer) about empathy in the workplace:
When we talk about the qualities we want in people, empathy is a big one. If you can empathize with people, then you can do a good job. If you have no ability to empathize, then it’s difficult to give people feedback, and it’s difficult to help people improve. Everything becomes harder.anyway, it sounds so simple and easy, but if it were why doesn't everyone do it? men need to pick up the slack! :P
One way that empathy manifests itself is courtesy. Respecting people’s time is important. Don’t let your colleagues down; if you say you’re going to do something, do it. A lot of the standard traits that you would look for in any kind of organization come down to courteousness. It’s not just about having a veneer of politeness, but actually trying to anticipate someone else’s needs and meeting them in advance.
posted by kliuless at 11:42 AM on July 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
Oh good frog the food stuff... I've had so many issues about food stuff, including this fun memory.
A few years ago Mr. Mirror declared that "we" needed to lose weight, after a visit to his doctor. This went straight into how "we" needed to eat better. I repeated back to him "we need to eat better?" and he said yes, "we" needed to watch our caloric intake and our cholesterol and do more this and do more that and do less of the other thing.
And that's when I exploded and said "so this we here means ME, because I'm the one who finds the recipes, plans the meals, acquires the food, and cooks the food. Which part of this is 'we' beyond you telling ME I need to make it happen, when I'm perfectly happy with how I eat? If you want to eat differently, you need to do some of the work to help there."
And lo, he had another level-up moment, and started doing some of that work. I don't mind helping him - I love to help - but damn, your health issues and mine are actually not the same. If you'd like my help in trying to change a lifestyle thing, ask, don't just inform me that there's all this work you're not going to be doing but will take the credit for.
I'm still touchy about we=me. Just turn that w upside down and tada, instant out for all kinds of work.
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [41 favorites]
A few years ago Mr. Mirror declared that "we" needed to lose weight, after a visit to his doctor. This went straight into how "we" needed to eat better. I repeated back to him "we need to eat better?" and he said yes, "we" needed to watch our caloric intake and our cholesterol and do more this and do more that and do less of the other thing.
And that's when I exploded and said "so this we here means ME, because I'm the one who finds the recipes, plans the meals, acquires the food, and cooks the food. Which part of this is 'we' beyond you telling ME I need to make it happen, when I'm perfectly happy with how I eat? If you want to eat differently, you need to do some of the work to help there."
And lo, he had another level-up moment, and started doing some of that work. I don't mind helping him - I love to help - but damn, your health issues and mine are actually not the same. If you'd like my help in trying to change a lifestyle thing, ask, don't just inform me that there's all this work you're not going to be doing but will take the credit for.
I'm still touchy about we=me. Just turn that w upside down and tada, instant out for all kinds of work.
posted by lriG rorriM at 11:45 AM on July 22, 2015 [41 favorites]
it's not about the guy; some of it is just that I'm an adult now and have other shit to worry about that takes precedence over my sex life, but also the programming is just so strong
I completely agree-- my life is busier now that I'm an adult for sure, and the men I date are much less sex-obsessed now, due to age and the fact that I date men who are in school or who have careers-- but I also just feel like my vision of being a competent adult woman specifically excludes that kind of sexual fulfillment. I'm supposed to be independent! Self-assured! Need men like a fish needs a bicycle! If I do have a sex partner, it should be, like, romantic grown-up perfectly "fair" sex, which is usually the best men can do.
I don't know how many men feel the same-- maybe it's just the depressed, loser-y ones who nag their wives about living out their deep-seated fetishes? But there are so many high powered men who need sexual "release" (a woman regularly taking care of all their emotional and sexual needs at once in sessions-on-demand, without asking for anything but maybe money in return) and it doesn't seem to fuck with their self-image. I just don't know.
posted by easter queen at 11:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I completely agree-- my life is busier now that I'm an adult for sure, and the men I date are much less sex-obsessed now, due to age and the fact that I date men who are in school or who have careers-- but I also just feel like my vision of being a competent adult woman specifically excludes that kind of sexual fulfillment. I'm supposed to be independent! Self-assured! Need men like a fish needs a bicycle! If I do have a sex partner, it should be, like, romantic grown-up perfectly "fair" sex, which is usually the best men can do.
I don't know how many men feel the same-- maybe it's just the depressed, loser-y ones who nag their wives about living out their deep-seated fetishes? But there are so many high powered men who need sexual "release" (a woman regularly taking care of all their emotional and sexual needs at once in sessions-on-demand, without asking for anything but maybe money in return) and it doesn't seem to fuck with their self-image. I just don't know.
posted by easter queen at 11:46 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
which, btw, brings to mind this interview i just read with #364 (#1's employer) about empathy in the workplace:
...
men need to pick up the slack! :P
I see what you did there.
posted by phearlez at 11:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
...
men need to pick up the slack! :P
I see what you did there.
posted by phearlez at 11:47 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Regarding strip clubs and men as the object of the gaze, I've read a lot of people whose opinions I respect practically falling over themselves about how amazing and unusual the movie Magic Mike XXL is.
posted by Lexica at 11:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
What's most appealing – and perhaps surprising – about the sequel to the 2012 hit is the overriding sense of inclusiveness and acceptance. The film's already been called 'body positive' and 'sex positive', praised for its focus on diversity and female desire. For what's essentially a buddy road film centred on a bunch of dudes - what Quentin Tarantino might call "a hangout movie" - it still manages to be a film for those Hollywood generally tends to ignore, especially women.…Source.
In other scenes, there's a club that caters specifically to women of colour (where Jada Pinkett-Smith, Donald Glover, and THE GREATEST DANCER OF YOUR LIFETIME F--KING TWITCH steal the show to magnificent Jodeci jamz); there's Andie MacDowell and other older women getting unapologetically tipsy and freaky; there's women of all sizes being gyrated upon by ripped dudes - and none of the scenes are played for cheap laughs, as we've often come to expect.
posted by Lexica at 11:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
Man here. Just noting for the record I read this over several hours and three days, and it made a big impression. Thanks.
posted by norm at 11:57 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by norm at 11:57 AM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yay! The first movie was lauded as unexpectedly good, but I felt like it took some of those cheap shots at women in service of showing how demoralizing the life of a stripper is. Which, fair point, but it's hard to make fun of women's sexual desire at all in our culture without appearing to be a bully because that's how strong the cultural messages against women's sexuality are.
posted by easter queen at 12:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 12:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Someone got shirty with me in an AskMe recently because I pointed out that women are biologically disinclined to have sex with their caretake-ees so, you know...if you act like a toddler don't be surprised if you get the sex life of one.
The link for the Crone Island google group is in my profile, I try to jump in and approve requests every 30 minutes or so, I'm just not widely publicly linking to keep spam and those with shitty intentions to a minimum. I don't love Google Groups either, but it's low-overhead. The group is private but if your email is your real name and that's gritchy for you, I'd suggest using a secondary (doesn't everyone have a not-my-real-name gmail address??).
posted by Lyn Never at 12:15 PM on July 22, 2015 [60 favorites]
The link for the Crone Island google group is in my profile, I try to jump in and approve requests every 30 minutes or so, I'm just not widely publicly linking to keep spam and those with shitty intentions to a minimum. I don't love Google Groups either, but it's low-overhead. The group is private but if your email is your real name and that's gritchy for you, I'd suggest using a secondary (doesn't everyone have a not-my-real-name gmail address??).
posted by Lyn Never at 12:15 PM on July 22, 2015 [60 favorites]
. So many women who date men spend months, years, decades castigating themselves for an apparent failure to contort their inner and outer selves in JUST THE RIGHT WAY -- because, she assumes, if she was Doing It Right, her significant other would deign to show her love and/or respect, would pick up at least some of the emotional labor or the housework, or at least that he would listen to her when she speaks.
And media propagates this over and over. I flinch whenever someone mentions the "What Shamu Taught Me About A Happy Marriage" NYT article because it's yet another example of "Women, if you just do X right then your man will behave." Fuck that shit. Go read that article now after you've read this entire thread and tell me you don't vomit in your own mouth.
posted by desjardins at 12:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
And media propagates this over and over. I flinch whenever someone mentions the "What Shamu Taught Me About A Happy Marriage" NYT article because it's yet another example of "Women, if you just do X right then your man will behave." Fuck that shit. Go read that article now after you've read this entire thread and tell me you don't vomit in your own mouth.
posted by desjardins at 12:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
I pointed out that women are biologically disinclined to have sex with their caretake-ees
You have no idea what framing that in a way I've never seen before, succinctly stating something I've tried to sort out in my head about "maternal" feelings and love for a partner and the impact on desire, has done to begin to shift a massive burden of guilt I'm carrying. Thank you.
posted by billiebee at 12:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
You have no idea what framing that in a way I've never seen before, succinctly stating something I've tried to sort out in my head about "maternal" feelings and love for a partner and the impact on desire, has done to begin to shift a massive burden of guilt I'm carrying. Thank you.
posted by billiebee at 12:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
tl;dr - IBTP.
I'm on my phone and can't figure out how to read the hover note on this, so I can only assume it means, "I bought toilet paper."
Because on Crone Island, someone always notices when it's running low. And puts it on the holder.
posted by zennie at 12:29 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm on my phone and can't figure out how to read the hover note on this, so I can only assume it means, "I bought toilet paper."
Because on Crone Island, someone always notices when it's running low. And puts it on the holder.
posted by zennie at 12:29 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
on Crone Island, someone always notices when it's running low.
On Crone Island, but only on Crone Island. I Blame The Patriarchy.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
On Crone Island, but only on Crone Island. I Blame The Patriarchy.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I Blame The Patriarchy, though I Bought Toilet Paper also works. :)
posted by XtinaS at 12:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 12:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I made a joke to someone (and it was in real life, so it might have been to my husband, who probably didn't get it) about the trailer for MMXXL with Joe Mangianello dancing in the convenience store, where I said, "Jesus Christ if he picks up a 36-pack of toilet paper I'm gonna have to change my shorts" and I'm glad I can recycle it here where it will be appreciated.
That sex-caretaking thing was a really enormous epiphany when I first realized it. That's some very powerful neurobiomojo right there.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
That sex-caretaking thing was a really enormous epiphany when I first realized it. That's some very powerful neurobiomojo right there.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [31 favorites]
Possibly vaguely spoilery discussion of the movie Trainwreck here, highlighting what the author identifies as a new romantic lead-type in women-led romcoms:
But I've noticed that as more women are put in the driver’s seat and get to choose their passengers, the love interest of choice has taken a particular, consistent shape: the average-looking dude with above-average emotional intelligence. The Emotional Bodyguard.posted by EvaDestruction at 12:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
I hope someone more talented than me does a travel poster for Crone Island.
posted by desjardins at 12:45 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 12:45 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Ahh you guys I wish we were all sitting in a room somewhere so you could see my expressions and hear me grunting, "The fucker! Oh you poor thing! Dang, what a jackass extraordinaire. Oh you, come here and let me hug you."
I think while you all go off to Crone Island you should drop off your sig others for my seminars:
101 Gift Buying
102 Pleasing Her in Bed
103 Really Listening
This is a whole thing I've never acknowledged before-- that being a female partner in a straight relationship means a BUTTLOAD of emotional labor around sex, that you really really can't talk about, because there is so much male fragility on this issue. In some ways it's the final frontier. Say what you will about housework, but do not speak of orgasms!
Oh you had to go there. So much work, so much pain. My worst sex story: My first year in college I hooked up with a guy that was 4 years older. He was smart, well read, intelligent but a complete and utter jackass in bed. The problem was that I was relatively new at the sex game and a bit insecure so I thought the whole point was to please him, not myself.
We would have long, long marathons in bed but he only seemed to like missionary and the problem was that he had very bony hips. I had permanent bruises on the insides of my thighs which meant that when we had sex again I was mostly focused on how painful it was for him to be digging into the bruises. He offered to go down on me once but then made a face about how I smelled and had I ever heard of strawberry douche? I was much too insecure to ever allow him down there again for fear of being offensive to him. (When I told my husband this story he outright laughed, "Real men love the taste of pussy.")
Just to put the cherry on top of this shit sundae, this was the same guy that told me one day after we had just had sex that he was getting married the next weekend. Unbeknownst to me he had been going home at the weekends not to see his folks but to see his fiance. When I cried he told me, "But don't worry! We can still do this." gesturing at the bed. I wonder how that marriage turned out?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:54 PM on July 22, 2015 [45 favorites]
I think while you all go off to Crone Island you should drop off your sig others for my seminars:
101 Gift Buying
102 Pleasing Her in Bed
103 Really Listening
This is a whole thing I've never acknowledged before-- that being a female partner in a straight relationship means a BUTTLOAD of emotional labor around sex, that you really really can't talk about, because there is so much male fragility on this issue. In some ways it's the final frontier. Say what you will about housework, but do not speak of orgasms!
Oh you had to go there. So much work, so much pain. My worst sex story: My first year in college I hooked up with a guy that was 4 years older. He was smart, well read, intelligent but a complete and utter jackass in bed. The problem was that I was relatively new at the sex game and a bit insecure so I thought the whole point was to please him, not myself.
We would have long, long marathons in bed but he only seemed to like missionary and the problem was that he had very bony hips. I had permanent bruises on the insides of my thighs which meant that when we had sex again I was mostly focused on how painful it was for him to be digging into the bruises. He offered to go down on me once but then made a face about how I smelled and had I ever heard of strawberry douche? I was much too insecure to ever allow him down there again for fear of being offensive to him. (When I told my husband this story he outright laughed, "Real men love the taste of pussy.")
Just to put the cherry on top of this shit sundae, this was the same guy that told me one day after we had just had sex that he was getting married the next weekend. Unbeknownst to me he had been going home at the weekends not to see his folks but to see his fiance. When I cried he told me, "But don't worry! We can still do this." gesturing at the bed. I wonder how that marriage turned out?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:54 PM on July 22, 2015 [45 favorites]
Oy, yeah, desjardins, that article is the worst. (I had to read it in a class recently. I can't even.)
posted by ferret branca at 12:55 PM on July 22, 2015
posted by ferret branca at 12:55 PM on July 22, 2015
Haha, that Shamu article. I remember when I read it I told my boyfriend about it (and my attendant frustrations) and I was like, if you don't shape up, I'm gonna train you. And he was like "no! You can't!" and I was like I will, and you won't even know it, because I guarantee you won't read the article. (This was lighthearted teasing but I'd like to think that he got the point.)
posted by easter queen at 12:59 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 12:59 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think while you all go off to Crone Island you should drop off your sig others for my seminars:
How about they drive themselves?
posted by desjardins at 1:01 PM on July 22, 2015 [32 favorites]
How about they drive themselves?
posted by desjardins at 1:01 PM on July 22, 2015 [32 favorites]
DEFINITELY re: consent. I also think of it in instances where we don't believe people when they tell us about their lived experiences as [women / POC / queer / in any other way marginalized], because of course that too is the same -- the idea that there are people who'd rather just write it off when others say "this thing that happens to me is very upsetting and hurtful" because they're too lazy or blind.
Allow me to present to you the new Rebecca Solnit joint, Cassandra Among the Creeps. It's about this and is very good and infuriating.
posted by clavicle at 1:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Allow me to present to you the new Rebecca Solnit joint, Cassandra Among the Creeps. It's about this and is very good and infuriating.
posted by clavicle at 1:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
How about they drive themselves?
Touché
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
There was also apparently a typo in someone's course listing that accidentally listed the course number for "Love Your Lover and Your Health: Condoms" as 401 instead of 104.
They should really fix that shit, because really it's a remedial course.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
They should really fix that shit, because really it's a remedial course.
posted by susiswimmer at 1:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, on an island far away, a large group of crones are dancing in the moonlight and high-fiving with the hands not holding the margaritas.
Oh shit, I missed the thread...
posted by infini at 1:25 PM on July 22, 2015
Oh shit, I missed the thread...
posted by infini at 1:25 PM on July 22, 2015
While I was growing up, it was popular to be socialized on the "fragile male ego"... just realized that I haven't heard this concept in easily a decade and a half, if not more.
posted by infini at 1:27 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 1:27 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Speaking of sexual precocity, when I was a teen, I reaaaally wanted to go all the way. *waggles eyebrows* I felt ready, and I wasn't worried about waiting for marriage or anything like that. However, through some coincidence, I dated three guys in a row throughout junior high and early college who DID want to wait until marriage. I was fine with this-- no pressure, we did what was in their comfort zone, etc. Until I was dating the second guy and I had to go on birth control pills for health reasons. All of the sudden-- he DID want to have sex! Almost as if the entire reason we weren't was that he just wasn't mature enough to 1) evaluate his shit and 2) procure his own fucking condoms. Jesus Christ! Like as long as I was getting the birth control and doing the groundwork/"dirty work," then hey, I just roped him into it, no blame in his game. Time to sex.
When I told this guy that I actually didn't want to have sex (the relationship was on shaky ground and I didn't want my first time to be with someone I was starting to resent and possibly about to break up with), it seemed fine at first, until next time we were fooling around he suddenly tried doing anal stuff. Like, "secretly," as if I wouldn't notice. I told him that I didn't think there was anything wrong with sex/anal sex but that I REALLY didn't want my "first time" to be anal sex, because I didn't subscribe to the idea that anal wasn't "real" sex, and it felt way too intimate to fast-forward all the way to that point when I wasn't sure. Next time we were intimate-- he tried it again! Like he didn't listen, or he forgot, or something. Like OK, I spent four years being cool with your boundaries and not trying to push them and frankly letting you take the lead, and now you suddenly have the penetration bug and won't leave me the fuck alone?
Anyway we broke up a little bit later, but it soured my ideas about dating men for awhile.
posted by easter queen at 1:31 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
When I told this guy that I actually didn't want to have sex (the relationship was on shaky ground and I didn't want my first time to be with someone I was starting to resent and possibly about to break up with), it seemed fine at first, until next time we were fooling around he suddenly tried doing anal stuff. Like, "secretly," as if I wouldn't notice. I told him that I didn't think there was anything wrong with sex/anal sex but that I REALLY didn't want my "first time" to be anal sex, because I didn't subscribe to the idea that anal wasn't "real" sex, and it felt way too intimate to fast-forward all the way to that point when I wasn't sure. Next time we were intimate-- he tried it again! Like he didn't listen, or he forgot, or something. Like OK, I spent four years being cool with your boundaries and not trying to push them and frankly letting you take the lead, and now you suddenly have the penetration bug and won't leave me the fuck alone?
Anyway we broke up a little bit later, but it soured my ideas about dating men for awhile.
posted by easter queen at 1:31 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
fragile male ego
Yes! This phrase is such a dogwhistle for like, "strident feminist character from book/movie" before my coming of age. Whenever I hear it I'm like "??" "how have we forgotten this amazing concept?"
posted by easter queen at 1:31 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes! This phrase is such a dogwhistle for like, "strident feminist character from book/movie" before my coming of age. Whenever I hear it I'm like "??" "how have we forgotten this amazing concept?"
posted by easter queen at 1:31 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh this thread.
I never wanted to get married when I was a teen. I didn't really date because teenaged boys didn't do it for me, you know? When I did start dating, I basically went from one long-term abusive relationship to another one. For a total of two. Ever.
When I get out of this one, when I settle down in my own house with my sons (that I am trying desperately to raise to be HUMAN, at the least) I am going to raise a toast to Crone Island and I am never, ever going to fucking leave. At age 35, I am starry-eyed in love with the idea that I will (hopefully!) never be in a relationship again.
posted by annathea at 1:37 PM on July 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
I never wanted to get married when I was a teen. I didn't really date because teenaged boys didn't do it for me, you know? When I did start dating, I basically went from one long-term abusive relationship to another one. For a total of two. Ever.
When I get out of this one, when I settle down in my own house with my sons (that I am trying desperately to raise to be HUMAN, at the least) I am going to raise a toast to Crone Island and I am never, ever going to fucking leave. At age 35, I am starry-eyed in love with the idea that I will (hopefully!) never be in a relationship again.
posted by annathea at 1:37 PM on July 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
Oh that "fragile male ego". I hear it very often, you know. Including from women who have been taught that hardly anything in this life is more important than protecting men's poor defenceless egos.
I once told a female friend about my then-boyfriend. He was steering me towards the bedroom way too fast and I told him as much. He was not happy with me and got all upset and defensive, and when I told my friend about this, she said, "But of course he was! It was like you told him he was doing something wrong!" Honestly, no comment.
posted by Guelder at 1:40 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I once told a female friend about my then-boyfriend. He was steering me towards the bedroom way too fast and I told him as much. He was not happy with me and got all upset and defensive, and when I told my friend about this, she said, "But of course he was! It was like you told him he was doing something wrong!" Honestly, no comment.
posted by Guelder at 1:40 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
desjardins: I hope someone more talented than me does a travel poster for Crone Island.
M A R G A R I T A S | T A C O S | S I S T E R H O O D
posted by ocherdraco at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [217 favorites]
M A R G A R I T A S | T A C O S | S I S T E R H O O D
posted by ocherdraco at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [217 favorites]
well hello new desktop image on my work laptop
posted by palomar at 1:48 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by palomar at 1:48 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
This whole thread has been fantastically enlightening for me (though it's meant I've dodged my parents' phone calls for the last couple of days while I acknowledge bone-deep anger over my upbringing and the current state of affairs), & I wanted to address this:
...and i told her about Group Activity Guy (and I realize it may have been a cousin or something and not a gf)... - sio42
NO IT WAS NOT. Just a cousin/friend/non-love-interest? Then he's approaching you, introducing her to you so you don't get the wrong idea after the previous flirtation, and so on. She's either his girlfriend, or (unfortunately less likely) a platonic friend he finagled into attending with him because he didn't wish to continue said flirtation with you for whatever reason and didn't know how to a) address that as a functional, socialized adult or b) dial it back to something more manageable for him. This weirdness is on HIM.
I just -- I've ended up doing the emotional labor for people (at times, YEARS after our acquaintance has ended), trying to figure out their motivations (as if figuring it out might offer closure, or make my feelings about them less fraught, or maybe even save me from going through some familiar, ugly situation again with someone new), and it seems you might be a little prone to the same thing.
(And thanks to everyone who's participating in this thread and in the related threads, it's helping a lot. I've been single for years, and all of my ideas of why I'm so gun-shy about dating again tend to revolve around my innate, irredeemable wrongness, and romantic unlovability, and are never really critical of what the men I've dated brought -- or, neglected to bring -- to the table.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:49 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
...and i told her about Group Activity Guy (and I realize it may have been a cousin or something and not a gf)... - sio42
NO IT WAS NOT. Just a cousin/friend/non-love-interest? Then he's approaching you, introducing her to you so you don't get the wrong idea after the previous flirtation, and so on. She's either his girlfriend, or (unfortunately less likely) a platonic friend he finagled into attending with him because he didn't wish to continue said flirtation with you for whatever reason and didn't know how to a) address that as a functional, socialized adult or b) dial it back to something more manageable for him. This weirdness is on HIM.
I just -- I've ended up doing the emotional labor for people (at times, YEARS after our acquaintance has ended), trying to figure out their motivations (as if figuring it out might offer closure, or make my feelings about them less fraught, or maybe even save me from going through some familiar, ugly situation again with someone new), and it seems you might be a little prone to the same thing.
(And thanks to everyone who's participating in this thread and in the related threads, it's helping a lot. I've been single for years, and all of my ideas of why I'm so gun-shy about dating again tend to revolve around my innate, irredeemable wrongness, and romantic unlovability, and are never really critical of what the men I've dated brought -- or, neglected to bring -- to the table.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:49 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Thank you ocherdraco! It is also my new wallpaper. Beautiful (and a great reminder in the office).
posted by Sophie1 at 1:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 1:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Here's the original poster, "L'ÉTÉ EN SUISSE" should anyone be interested.)
posted by ocherdraco at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by ocherdraco at 1:56 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
At age 35, I am starry-eyed in love with the idea that I will (hopefully!) never be in a relationship again.
Dude, YES. I turn 33 tomorrow and I feel downright full to bursting with joy at the prospect of never having to look after a man again for the rest of my life. My 20s, my beautiful, energetic, high-octane 20s were so utterly wasted, but if I'm lucky enough to live to see the day, I can make damn sure that my 30s won't be, or my 40s, or or or.
I spent so many years trying to convince myself that I should want to partner up again (especially because single women make a lot of partnered people uncomfortable, like we're contagious or something?) but it turns out that when it comes right down to it, I just... don't. I've been keeping secrets and performing untold hours of thankless emotional labor for, cleaning up and looking after men for most of my life and I just... yeah, I just don't want to do it anymore! Not for "love," not for companionship, not for all the tea in China. It's been tremendously validating to read this thread and find out that there other women who feel the same way. Just priceless. From the bottom of my heart, thank you all for sharing your stories.
posted by divined by radio at 2:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [46 favorites]
Dude, YES. I turn 33 tomorrow and I feel downright full to bursting with joy at the prospect of never having to look after a man again for the rest of my life. My 20s, my beautiful, energetic, high-octane 20s were so utterly wasted, but if I'm lucky enough to live to see the day, I can make damn sure that my 30s won't be, or my 40s, or or or.
I spent so many years trying to convince myself that I should want to partner up again (especially because single women make a lot of partnered people uncomfortable, like we're contagious or something?) but it turns out that when it comes right down to it, I just... don't. I've been keeping secrets and performing untold hours of thankless emotional labor for, cleaning up and looking after men for most of my life and I just... yeah, I just don't want to do it anymore! Not for "love," not for companionship, not for all the tea in China. It's been tremendously validating to read this thread and find out that there other women who feel the same way. Just priceless. From the bottom of my heart, thank you all for sharing your stories.
posted by divined by radio at 2:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [46 favorites]
Happy Birthday DBR!
posted by susiswimmer at 2:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by susiswimmer at 2:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
For what it's worth, this partnered woman salutes you. It's great to find out what you really want from life, and it's no easy feat. It's even better to follow that dream once you find it.
Yay you!
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yay you!
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ugh, yes, Iris Gambol, the people (men), who suddenly relearn how to text or make a phone call when they find themselves without an emotional pack mule.
No, ex-boyfriend who wouldn't hold my hand in public -- TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AGO -- I will not be accompanying you to your friend's funeral.
posted by 1066 at 2:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
No, ex-boyfriend who wouldn't hold my hand in public -- TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AGO -- I will not be accompanying you to your friend's funeral.
posted by 1066 at 2:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
My ex-husband - whom I had to explicitly tell to never contact me again in December after yet another random, drunken, rambling email - emailed me in March asking me questions about labor and delivery because his girlfriend was about to be induced and "Everything I know about this I learned from you."
And my sorry ass answered his stupid, Googleable questions because I felt bad for the woman having his baby, then reiterated that he never, ever contact me again. So he's only emailed me two more times.
His unceasing assumption that he deserves my attention is fucking breathtaking (for me!) to witness.
posted by annathea at 2:12 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
And my sorry ass answered his stupid, Googleable questions because I felt bad for the woman having his baby, then reiterated that he never, ever contact me again. So he's only emailed me two more times.
His unceasing assumption that he deserves my attention is fucking breathtaking (for me!) to witness.
posted by annathea at 2:12 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oh, and I just spoke to my adult son on the phone about seeing "Ant Man" on Saturday.
I told him to just shoot me a text with the show time after he bought the tickets. He sounded surprised that I wasn't handling everything, but gamely agreed that he would do so.
One small step for crones...
posted by 1066 at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
I told him to just shoot me a text with the show time after he bought the tickets. He sounded surprised that I wasn't handling everything, but gamely agreed that he would do so.
One small step for crones...
posted by 1066 at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
While I feel the general idea is interesting, I think a lot of the details (for example in this askme or the above complaint about holding hands), are personal preferences and projections of personal relationship issues rather than sociological faults .
(dusting the tops of window frames? Really? Who does this.. no one in my household does this --- I'm sure my childhood home had really nasty window tops :-)).
And if folding fitted sheets is a relationship requirement, I guess I got lucky in finding someone who can't do it either -- because even with the youtube directions, it turns into a floppy mess.
Anyway, largely the pattern holds, so I don't want to criticize this too much. But I think one has to be careful when generalizing "emotional labor" to "not willing to work in a relationship" or "shitty things exes have done to me" or "not having the same standards of cleanliness" -- which seems like a different category of thing to me.
posted by smidgen at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
(dusting the tops of window frames? Really? Who does this.. no one in my household does this --- I'm sure my childhood home had really nasty window tops :-)).
And if folding fitted sheets is a relationship requirement, I guess I got lucky in finding someone who can't do it either -- because even with the youtube directions, it turns into a floppy mess.
Anyway, largely the pattern holds, so I don't want to criticize this too much. But I think one has to be careful when generalizing "emotional labor" to "not willing to work in a relationship" or "shitty things exes have done to me" or "not having the same standards of cleanliness" -- which seems like a different category of thing to me.
posted by smidgen at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think, smidgen, the impression I get isn't that we are upset that we have dirty window frame tops or messily folded fitted sheets. I think we are upset because we have told partners and family members that this thing, whatever it may happen to be, is important to us and they can't be bothered to care or do anything about it.
posted by chatongriffes at 2:17 PM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
posted by chatongriffes at 2:17 PM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
My father never talked about his emotions, but there were so many things that he made sure were done to take care of others. Reading about how other men have not included that as part of fathering has made me more aware.
Thanks mefi. Thanks dad.
posted by yohko at 2:17 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Thanks mefi. Thanks dad.
posted by yohko at 2:17 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
smidgen, his refusal to hold my hand was because his friends might see and tease him, that's not a preference, that's beings an immature ass. He was twenty-one, not twelve.
posted by 1066 at 2:19 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by 1066 at 2:19 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think the reason why "different standards of cleanliness" is often gendered and a result of sensitivity to emotional labor has been amply explained.
As for holding hands, the point isn't that this person didn't like holding hands, it's that it was apparently too much effort to think about his partner's needs and respond, whereas his female EX attending a FUNERAL with him, that is tooootally normal. "No, holding hands is too schmoopy" and "help me through LIIIIIIFE" are spoken in the same breath.
posted by easter queen at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
As for holding hands, the point isn't that this person didn't like holding hands, it's that it was apparently too much effort to think about his partner's needs and respond, whereas his female EX attending a FUNERAL with him, that is tooootally normal. "No, holding hands is too schmoopy" and "help me through LIIIIIIFE" are spoken in the same breath.
posted by easter queen at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
Regarding all the "men asking questions about things" comments:
One of my first professional ballet teachers was a tough Chigago-via-NYC woman, who had a class of ten boys aged 10-11. I was a huge know-it-all, and constantly did the thing where you ask a lot of questions not to actually learn something, but to prove how smart you are.
After a few weeks, she replied with something that has stayed with me my whole life. "Sixswitch, can you figure out the answer to that question yourself?"
Well...yes.
"So from now on, every time you want to ask a question, see if you can answer it yourself first. If you can't, you're always welcome to ask it, and I'll always do my best to help you."
So simple. Changed my life.
And have I sent her a Christmas card or a birthday card once in the years since? As my grandmother would say, "Three guesses and the first two don't count." Baby steps, baby steps...
posted by sixswitch at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
One of my first professional ballet teachers was a tough Chigago-via-NYC woman, who had a class of ten boys aged 10-11. I was a huge know-it-all, and constantly did the thing where you ask a lot of questions not to actually learn something, but to prove how smart you are.
After a few weeks, she replied with something that has stayed with me my whole life. "Sixswitch, can you figure out the answer to that question yourself?"
Well...yes.
"So from now on, every time you want to ask a question, see if you can answer it yourself first. If you can't, you're always welcome to ask it, and I'll always do my best to help you."
So simple. Changed my life.
And have I sent her a Christmas card or a birthday card once in the years since? As my grandmother would say, "Three guesses and the first two don't count." Baby steps, baby steps...
posted by sixswitch at 2:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
Smidgen, I am having a hard time responding to the dismissiveness of your comment without getting irritated. Hand-holding an ex through the birth of his child when you have asked he not contact you is perfectly consistent with the emotional labor as discussed in this thread. And your characterization of the dynamics that most people in this thread are discussing as household overtidiness is.... incredibly smug and more than a bit condescending.
Seriously, where the everloving fuck did the window top thing come from? Did you invent that one out of whole cloth? Because I can't find it.
posted by sciatrix at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
Seriously, where the everloving fuck did the window top thing come from? Did you invent that one out of whole cloth? Because I can't find it.
posted by sciatrix at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
Thanks, easter queen, for explaining it so well, first round of margaritas are on me.
posted by 1066 at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by 1066 at 2:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, surely #NotAllMen are entitled assholes, but a hell of a lot of them are, without even realizing it. That's why we have this thread.
posted by chatongriffes at 2:27 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by chatongriffes at 2:27 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed; I can totally understand the instinct to sort of think out loud about your take on a thing, but coming into the tail end of a thousand comment thread to say "well, it's really about..." is not a great idea.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [33 favorites]
MissySedai, despite what you've described about your husband's malfeasance, I can tell that you really love and care about your kids, and it seems like you raised them to be 100x more savvy and self-aware. They sound emotionally literate and fun to be around. Kudos for that.
I wouldn't say malfeasance, so much as just utter obliviousness. He never lived on his own before we got married, whereas I had moved to Europe when I was 16, back when I was 18, and skipped on off to college and out of my grandparents' home immediately thereafter.
We've been together nearly 30 years, married for 25, so keep in mind that there are many years where his dumbass was in force at some time or another - it's not like this is an every day thing. But it is definitely an accumulation of things!
My Monsters are the best, yes, and they are involved with smart, funny, independent young women whom I absolutely adore. I was a SAHM for 11 years, and now a WAHM, and now staring down the spectre of Younger Monster moving out (and taking his dog with him, WAHHH!) at the end of next month. The kid is working a good Union job, making more money than I am, and is ready to fly. I think I did OK. He's my Buddy, a sarcastic brat-child with a giant mooshy heart. Elder Monster is a smartass with a weird sense of humor and infinite compassion. I have been there with them for everything and don't regret a minute of it.
posted by MissySedai at 2:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
I wouldn't say malfeasance, so much as just utter obliviousness. He never lived on his own before we got married, whereas I had moved to Europe when I was 16, back when I was 18, and skipped on off to college and out of my grandparents' home immediately thereafter.
We've been together nearly 30 years, married for 25, so keep in mind that there are many years where his dumbass was in force at some time or another - it's not like this is an every day thing. But it is definitely an accumulation of things!
My Monsters are the best, yes, and they are involved with smart, funny, independent young women whom I absolutely adore. I was a SAHM for 11 years, and now a WAHM, and now staring down the spectre of Younger Monster moving out (and taking his dog with him, WAHHH!) at the end of next month. The kid is working a good Union job, making more money than I am, and is ready to fly. I think I did OK. He's my Buddy, a sarcastic brat-child with a giant mooshy heart. Elder Monster is a smartass with a weird sense of humor and infinite compassion. I have been there with them for everything and don't regret a minute of it.
posted by MissySedai at 2:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
All these entitled assholes are people who seemed normal enough to date, until you have to live with them and realize they are incompetent at emotional labor. The fact of the matter is that almost every young woman goes through the wringer with this stuff and it's not because we're solely dating greasers in leather jackets with pin-up calendars in their garages. We're actually frequently dating nice, even feminist men who have a MASSIVE blind spot.
posted by easter queen at 2:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [59 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 2:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [59 favorites]
Is it possible to visit Crone Island but keep citizenship here? 'Cos I am pretty definitively straight and I like sex too much to give up entirely (and I'm assertive enough to smack jerk-asses upside the head, so I balance it that way). But I do still want to visit if I need to commiserate.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:33 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:33 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
sciatrix: Yeah, I searched through this thread, two AskMes, and a MetaTalk, all related to or linked from/to this topic, and no mention of window dusting anywhere. (Dust, mentioned once, grime, mentioned once.) (Yay obsessive searching!) Sorta curious where that came from, now; maybe there's yet another thread somewhere?
posted by XtinaS at 2:38 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 2:38 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Invisible emotional labor, invisible mental labor, done by women--I now have those words for the things I have felt during my whole adult life as a cishet woman, now in my 2nd marriage. My 2nd husband is as different from my first as "chalk and cheese," as they say, but once again I have been so BESET by the invisible work. I was single for 16 years and in the last 3 since I remarried I have done so much housework and planning and being the General Director of Everything. From time to time he realizes that I do it, but he needs to realize it more. With these words that have been said in the original article and by all of you, it may be possible for him. I mean, I didn't grasp the fullness of the issue, either, and yet I've encountered it so often during my adult life.
I am just saying this off the top of my head, but I wonder if "invisible labor" (of the sorts done by women) is this century's "Problem That Has No Name," which Betty Friedan explored so well in The Feminine Mystique.
Gosh, I want Crone Island to exist, y'all. So I can visit at least. I have a Hawaiian Shaved Ice machine that I can donate and run when I am there. Boozy or non-boozy DRANKS can be made with it.
I don't want this thread to end. I have felt so much better since reading it. I am sure I'll continue to feel better, but STILL. Thank you to you all for your candor and your compassion.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:38 PM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
I am just saying this off the top of my head, but I wonder if "invisible labor" (of the sorts done by women) is this century's "Problem That Has No Name," which Betty Friedan explored so well in The Feminine Mystique.
Gosh, I want Crone Island to exist, y'all. So I can visit at least. I have a Hawaiian Shaved Ice machine that I can donate and run when I am there. Boozy or non-boozy DRANKS can be made with it.
I don't want this thread to end. I have felt so much better since reading it. I am sure I'll continue to feel better, but STILL. Thank you to you all for your candor and your compassion.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:38 PM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
We're actually frequently dating nice, even feminist men who have a MASSIVE blind spot.
None of the guys I've ever dated have been obvious chauvinists, cads, layabouts, sociopaths, the aforementioned greaser in leather jacket (who I'm imagining as pretty much a human cartoon, Gaston crossed with the most malignant aspects of one Arthur Fonzarelli)... they've all been perfectly average guys. Some had good relationships with their parents, some didn't. Some had college educations, some didn't. All had jobs. All had friends and family, people in their lives who loved them. There is absolutely nothing remarkable about any of these men, nothing that makes them stand out as some sort of monster that's easy to point at and say, see, see, not all men are like that! Because here's the kicker: these dudes are just like you, and you, and you, and you. Yes, you reading this right now. The only thing that keeps you from being one of these dudes is self-awareness and a willingness to not make other people responsible for regulating your emotions and managing your life on your behalf. That's it. That's all.
posted by palomar at 2:39 PM on July 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
None of the guys I've ever dated have been obvious chauvinists, cads, layabouts, sociopaths, the aforementioned greaser in leather jacket (who I'm imagining as pretty much a human cartoon, Gaston crossed with the most malignant aspects of one Arthur Fonzarelli)... they've all been perfectly average guys. Some had good relationships with their parents, some didn't. Some had college educations, some didn't. All had jobs. All had friends and family, people in their lives who loved them. There is absolutely nothing remarkable about any of these men, nothing that makes them stand out as some sort of monster that's easy to point at and say, see, see, not all men are like that! Because here's the kicker: these dudes are just like you, and you, and you, and you. Yes, you reading this right now. The only thing that keeps you from being one of these dudes is self-awareness and a willingness to not make other people responsible for regulating your emotions and managing your life on your behalf. That's it. That's all.
posted by palomar at 2:39 PM on July 22, 2015 [56 favorites]
Hand-holding an ex through the birth of his child when you have asked he not contact you is perfectly consistent with the emotional labor...
Yes and no. It is emotional labor, but it is also very pathological on his part. This feels kind of exceptional to me -- whereas the guy who calls his ex all the time without such an ultimatum in force thinks he's being reasonable, but is taking advantage of an expectation that is unfair. Anyway, my intent was not to minimize your particular experience.
Seriously, where the everloving fuck did the window top thing come from? Did you invent that one out of whole cloth? Because I can't find it.
It's in one of the lists in the askme I linked to.
Well, surely #NotAllMen are entitled assholes, but a hell of a lot of them are, without even realizing it. That's why we have this thread.
Agreed. The one nugget of truth in #notallmen is that if you constantly put forward extreme examples, most guys will not identify because they "aren't that guy". If you put forward examples such as most of the ones above, people can recognize themselves.
That's why this thread is so powerful. I can see myself in the examples above, whereas I just can't identity with someone who persists in contacting someone who doesn't want to be contacted, or will feel in any way guilty about not cleaning the tops of windows or not being able to fold a fitted sheet.
Anyway, I can see this is kind of a venting session, so I will step out...
posted by smidgen at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2015
Yes and no. It is emotional labor, but it is also very pathological on his part. This feels kind of exceptional to me -- whereas the guy who calls his ex all the time without such an ultimatum in force thinks he's being reasonable, but is taking advantage of an expectation that is unfair. Anyway, my intent was not to minimize your particular experience.
Seriously, where the everloving fuck did the window top thing come from? Did you invent that one out of whole cloth? Because I can't find it.
It's in one of the lists in the askme I linked to.
Well, surely #NotAllMen are entitled assholes, but a hell of a lot of them are, without even realizing it. That's why we have this thread.
Agreed. The one nugget of truth in #notallmen is that if you constantly put forward extreme examples, most guys will not identify because they "aren't that guy". If you put forward examples such as most of the ones above, people can recognize themselves.
That's why this thread is so powerful. I can see myself in the examples above, whereas I just can't identity with someone who persists in contacting someone who doesn't want to be contacted, or will feel in any way guilty about not cleaning the tops of windows or not being able to fold a fitted sheet.
Anyway, I can see this is kind of a venting session, so I will step out...
posted by smidgen at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2015
I think that smidgen is just saying that there's a difference between emotional labor and having different cleaning standards. chatongriffes answered his/her concern adequately, no need to keep on berating him/her. If we think that everyone should have the exact same cleaning standards as us, then we are just as bad as the people who don't want to do enough emotional labor.
I love this thread in general, but some of the "I will never ever have another relationship again" statements are making me uncomfortable.
posted by Melismata at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2015
I love this thread in general, but some of the "I will never ever have another relationship again" statements are making me uncomfortable.
posted by Melismata at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2015
But I think one has to be careful when generalizing "emotional labor" to "not willing to work in a relationship" or "shitty things exes have done to me" or "not having the same standards of cleanliness" -- which seems like a different category of thing to me.
I actually did a gut check before writing out my horrible sex story, I was worried that it was slightly off topic. However I do think that as women we tie ourselves into knots to please and pamper our mates (and friends and family) only to be saddened by the sound of crickets. Is it not emotional labor to act playful and gratified during uncomfortable, unsatisfying sexual activities so that our mate won't get his fragile male ego blown up to smithereens?
As to the different standards of cleanliness, that is also about stepping up to the plate and trying to please-- which women do on a daily basis and men do...rarely if ever. For example going to see that awful buddy movie he wants to see or going to the microbrewery when you hate beer or sitting through a jazz session when jazz bores you to tears, etc. Couples work these things out as best as they can but it seems like most women are giving, giving, giving and men are taking, taking, taking.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
I actually did a gut check before writing out my horrible sex story, I was worried that it was slightly off topic. However I do think that as women we tie ourselves into knots to please and pamper our mates (and friends and family) only to be saddened by the sound of crickets. Is it not emotional labor to act playful and gratified during uncomfortable, unsatisfying sexual activities so that our mate won't get his fragile male ego blown up to smithereens?
As to the different standards of cleanliness, that is also about stepping up to the plate and trying to please-- which women do on a daily basis and men do...rarely if ever. For example going to see that awful buddy movie he wants to see or going to the microbrewery when you hate beer or sitting through a jazz session when jazz bores you to tears, etc. Couples work these things out as best as they can but it seems like most women are giving, giving, giving and men are taking, taking, taking.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:45 PM on July 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
This thread. Thank you, all of you, I love you so much.
It's helped me with an issue at work that's been difficult for a year, and with this shift in my perspective I'm empowered. There are two incompetent people who use emotional language to bully and distract from their fuck-ups and not only expect me to soothe their egos, but also solve the problem they created. All the sudden last week it was clear as day! They both do this: fuck something up, and then when questioned say something along the lines of "oh wow this hurts me, I'm sensitive, I didn't know, why are you being so hard on me, help me, how am I supposed to know this..." It was some thing they were responsible for and they did it wrong and when called on it because NOW IT'S A PROBLEM they try and TURN THE CONVERSATION into how they are hurt and it's my job to comfort them in the light of their fuck up and help them solve it in addition to my own workload.
Well. FUCK. That.
With a confidence that was almost electric I calmly said something along the lines of: "No. That's not what we're talking about (your emotional needs at work). We are talking about this situation (that you created with your incompetence) and that you are responsible for resolving." I was able to calmly redirect this issue to what it was and put the problem back on them and defect their demands for my unconditional emotional support.
Both of these assholes that do this repeatedly, make at least 30 to 40K more than me and they have been leaning on me and my peers to not only make them feel better but fix their shit. It's no longer my job to help them be intellectually lazy. It's no longer my job to help them find the policy that dictates the correct course of action. It's no longer my job to make them feel better about what fucking losers they are in their position.
I feel like I have a super power. This awareness!
I'm so sorry for cursing so much but god dammit! For the last year I've felt so emotionally manipulated by these two people at work. I work in a female dominated industry (nursing) and my boss, a woman, constantly tries to get us to make emotional concessions for this incompetent man who came into the field and is horrible to us. He yells, he doesn't pull his own weight, he doesn't bother to learn protocols and he actively tries to steal our work and put it off as his own. For a year our boss has told us when we try to address severe behavior problems on his part, that we need to TRY TO SEE HIS SIDE, try to understand how hard this is for him to come into this field. We need to calmly, gently and clearly explain things to him. And repeatedly because he can't be expected to grasp it the first time. He came into a field that demands rigorous study, self motivation to keep your skills and knowledge current, have people skills to interact clearly and safely with a diverse group of people. And he brings none of that to the table. He cannot do it. We women who make less then this fuck pull our weight and more. We are not responsible for him. We are not the reason he is failing. And it's not my job to make him feel better about it.
Thank you everyone. Thank you from the bottom of my broken but healing heart!
posted by dog food sugar at 2:50 PM on July 22, 2015 [93 favorites]
It's helped me with an issue at work that's been difficult for a year, and with this shift in my perspective I'm empowered. There are two incompetent people who use emotional language to bully and distract from their fuck-ups and not only expect me to soothe their egos, but also solve the problem they created. All the sudden last week it was clear as day! They both do this: fuck something up, and then when questioned say something along the lines of "oh wow this hurts me, I'm sensitive, I didn't know, why are you being so hard on me, help me, how am I supposed to know this..." It was some thing they were responsible for and they did it wrong and when called on it because NOW IT'S A PROBLEM they try and TURN THE CONVERSATION into how they are hurt and it's my job to comfort them in the light of their fuck up and help them solve it in addition to my own workload.
Well. FUCK. That.
With a confidence that was almost electric I calmly said something along the lines of: "No. That's not what we're talking about (your emotional needs at work). We are talking about this situation (that you created with your incompetence) and that you are responsible for resolving." I was able to calmly redirect this issue to what it was and put the problem back on them and defect their demands for my unconditional emotional support.
Both of these assholes that do this repeatedly, make at least 30 to 40K more than me and they have been leaning on me and my peers to not only make them feel better but fix their shit. It's no longer my job to help them be intellectually lazy. It's no longer my job to help them find the policy that dictates the correct course of action. It's no longer my job to make them feel better about what fucking losers they are in their position.
I feel like I have a super power. This awareness!
I'm so sorry for cursing so much but god dammit! For the last year I've felt so emotionally manipulated by these two people at work. I work in a female dominated industry (nursing) and my boss, a woman, constantly tries to get us to make emotional concessions for this incompetent man who came into the field and is horrible to us. He yells, he doesn't pull his own weight, he doesn't bother to learn protocols and he actively tries to steal our work and put it off as his own. For a year our boss has told us when we try to address severe behavior problems on his part, that we need to TRY TO SEE HIS SIDE, try to understand how hard this is for him to come into this field. We need to calmly, gently and clearly explain things to him. And repeatedly because he can't be expected to grasp it the first time. He came into a field that demands rigorous study, self motivation to keep your skills and knowledge current, have people skills to interact clearly and safely with a diverse group of people. And he brings none of that to the table. He cannot do it. We women who make less then this fuck pull our weight and more. We are not responsible for him. We are not the reason he is failing. And it's not my job to make him feel better about it.
Thank you everyone. Thank you from the bottom of my broken but healing heart!
posted by dog food sugar at 2:50 PM on July 22, 2015 [93 favorites]
I love this thread in general, but some of the "I will never ever have another relationship again" statements are making me uncomfortable.
I truly can't understand why, though. I mean... why does it make you uncomfortable that I'm okay being single forever?
posted by palomar at 2:51 PM on July 22, 2015 [65 favorites]
I truly can't understand why, though. I mean... why does it make you uncomfortable that I'm okay being single forever?
posted by palomar at 2:51 PM on July 22, 2015 [65 favorites]
Not that you specifically called me out, of course. But if someone is realizing that being in relationships means most likely dealing with doing all the emotional labor for themselves, their partner, and possibly even more people (like in-laws) and they'd rather just opt out and take care of their own needs, that's not really a terrible thing. For that person, relationships have been deeply unfulfilling at best, wholly destructive at worst. I don't think it's sad or troubling and I'm genuinely curious why someone would.
posted by palomar at 2:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by palomar at 2:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
As to the different standards of cleanliness, that is also about stepping up to the plate and trying to please-- which women do on a daily basis and men do...rarely if ever.
There have also been studies showing that women increase the amount of housework they do after marriage and men decrease the amount they do. "Know how to keep the house nice and take care of it on your own and maybe ask me to help sometimes" is a very expected piece of emotional labor for women. In fact, until this thread, the huge majority of articles and essays I've read about "emotional labor" have all been about the mental work of tracking what housekeeping and childcare needs to be done. The issues are absolutely intertwined.
posted by jaguar at 2:58 PM on July 22, 2015 [33 favorites]
There have also been studies showing that women increase the amount of housework they do after marriage and men decrease the amount they do. "Know how to keep the house nice and take care of it on your own and maybe ask me to help sometimes" is a very expected piece of emotional labor for women. In fact, until this thread, the huge majority of articles and essays I've read about "emotional labor" have all been about the mental work of tracking what housekeeping and childcare needs to be done. The issues are absolutely intertwined.
posted by jaguar at 2:58 PM on July 22, 2015 [33 favorites]
I think that smidgen is just saying that there's a difference between emotional labor and having different cleaning standards
Sometimes there actually isn't, though. Like the reason my ex didn't "see messes" was because... he wasn't doing any emotional labor, wasn't keeping track of what was going on in his environment out of concern for everyone's wellbeing. And it's overwhelmingly men with this problem. I thought I was a slob until I started actually living with men. And I know at least a couple women who have moved out/asked their boyfriend to move out because while they loved them, the messes in their way all the time was too much. They couldn't cook, couldn't keep their life in order, because their partner wasn't doing the emotional work of being aware of the other person living in the house.
posted by easter queen at 2:59 PM on July 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
Sometimes there actually isn't, though. Like the reason my ex didn't "see messes" was because... he wasn't doing any emotional labor, wasn't keeping track of what was going on in his environment out of concern for everyone's wellbeing. And it's overwhelmingly men with this problem. I thought I was a slob until I started actually living with men. And I know at least a couple women who have moved out/asked their boyfriend to move out because while they loved them, the messes in their way all the time was too much. They couldn't cook, couldn't keep their life in order, because their partner wasn't doing the emotional work of being aware of the other person living in the house.
posted by easter queen at 2:59 PM on July 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
Like, I really actually am a slob! I am not neat or tidy and I hate cleaning. I'm a procrastinator and in the past, a bad roommate. But without exception, I have been the "neat freak" in all of my relationships with men. Mysterious but true.
posted by easter queen at 3:01 PM on July 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 3:01 PM on July 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
It strikes me that ghosting and its prevalence in our current culture are a result of people (generally men) being unwilling or unable to do emotional labor.
posted by Violet Hour at 3:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Violet Hour at 3:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm the one who posted the example about handholding an ex through the birth of his child and I wanted to delete or apologize for it even before it was called out as an extreme example, but no - I shared it because I was appalled by how it perfectly encapsulated his behavior of entitlement throughout our relationship and because it was literally the last contact I had with him, so it was the most recent example.
And also because until now, I have not had the opportunity to share that story and ask "Can you believe that?" And in any way have my own feelings on it validated - namely, that it was way out of line and he is not someone I can ever casually talk to, for this reason exactly. It's gotta be no-contact, all the way. So yes, I'm sorry if that plus expressing my deep desire to never have to do that kind of work again for someone I didn't give birth to myself is making other folks here uncomfortable, but I'm still glad this thread exists and I'm still going to share how this article resonated with me because I think it's changed a lot of lives.
posted by annathea at 3:08 PM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
And also because until now, I have not had the opportunity to share that story and ask "Can you believe that?" And in any way have my own feelings on it validated - namely, that it was way out of line and he is not someone I can ever casually talk to, for this reason exactly. It's gotta be no-contact, all the way. So yes, I'm sorry if that plus expressing my deep desire to never have to do that kind of work again for someone I didn't give birth to myself is making other folks here uncomfortable, but I'm still glad this thread exists and I'm still going to share how this article resonated with me because I think it's changed a lot of lives.
posted by annathea at 3:08 PM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
Interesting thought, Violet Hour. And it goes both directions with that. There's "guy ghosts because he can't/won't do the emotional labor to end the relationship responsibly", and there's "gal ghosts because experience tells her that guys react badly to breakups because they can't/won't do their own emotional labor to accept it."
posted by Lexica at 3:09 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 3:09 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Agreed. The one nugget of truth in #notallmen is that if you constantly put forward extreme examples, most guys will not identify because they "aren't that guy". If you put forward examples such as most of the ones above, people can recognize themselves.
And why should your (or 'most guys') reaction to these examples be an important consideration here? Are you under the misapprehension that this thread is primarily intended to convince or persuade men? Why should all of the women pouring their hearts out in this thread be doing the additional emotional labor of self-policing to only provide non-'extreme' examples that your average guy could recognize himself in, exactly?
posted by dialetheia at 3:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [127 favorites]
And why should your (or 'most guys') reaction to these examples be an important consideration here? Are you under the misapprehension that this thread is primarily intended to convince or persuade men? Why should all of the women pouring their hearts out in this thread be doing the additional emotional labor of self-policing to only provide non-'extreme' examples that your average guy could recognize himself in, exactly?
posted by dialetheia at 3:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [127 favorites]
Those extreme examples are real life stories from real women posting in this thread. Like, sure, not all dudes are shitty enough to ask their ex-wife to help their new wife not be so scared about childbirth. But that happened to someone who needed to talk about it, so they talked about it here, where we're talking about the extreme and mundane ways we have been asked to be the mommy for the men in our lives and offering support to each other. That's what the thread is about. It's not about pointing out that not all men are like this, because holy shit guess what, we already know that.
posted by palomar at 3:18 PM on July 22, 2015 [58 favorites]
posted by palomar at 3:18 PM on July 22, 2015 [58 favorites]
So yes, I'm sorry if that plus expressing my deep desire to never have to do that kind of work again for someone I didn't give birth to myself is making other folks here uncomfortable, but I'm still glad this thread exists and I'm still going to share how this article resonated with me because I think it's changed a lot of lives.
Don't you DARE apologize.
It's kind of ironic that in a thread about uncompensated emotional labor, some folks are expecting some done on their behalf because they're "uncomfortable". Let 'em be uncomfortable.
posted by MissySedai at 3:19 PM on July 22, 2015 [66 favorites]
Don't you DARE apologize.
It's kind of ironic that in a thread about uncompensated emotional labor, some folks are expecting some done on their behalf because they're "uncomfortable". Let 'em be uncomfortable.
posted by MissySedai at 3:19 PM on July 22, 2015 [66 favorites]
Melismata: "If we think that everyone should have the exact same cleaning standards as us, then we are just as bad as the people who don't want to do enough emotional labor."
No. No no no. I can't even. What is this? I certainly don't need to hear this version of "If your partner is clutterblind not only is it okay but you're just as terrible for expecting him/her to accommodate you not wanting to live in a pigsty."
Because I sure as hell haven't read any stories in this thread (or that AskMe) containing men failing to reach our outrageous cleaning standards, and insinuating that some people out there really are excessive is neither here nor there.
And for what it's worth, I damn well expect my husband to have my cleaning standards now that we are married because as it turns out, his are shit at best and nonexistent at worst.
posted by erratic meatsack at 3:21 PM on July 22, 2015 [22 favorites]
No. No no no. I can't even. What is this? I certainly don't need to hear this version of "If your partner is clutterblind not only is it okay but you're just as terrible for expecting him/her to accommodate you not wanting to live in a pigsty."
Because I sure as hell haven't read any stories in this thread (or that AskMe) containing men failing to reach our outrageous cleaning standards, and insinuating that some people out there really are excessive is neither here nor there.
And for what it's worth, I damn well expect my husband to have my cleaning standards now that we are married because as it turns out, his are shit at best and nonexistent at worst.
posted by erratic meatsack at 3:21 PM on July 22, 2015 [22 favorites]
I think the realization that it's nigh on impossible to have a long term relationship where the dude carries his weight on emotional labor can be both sobering and liberating.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [36 favorites]
I love this thread. I want to live in this thread (until I retire to Crone Island - SOON).
Several years ago there was a thread here about an article in a parenting magazine. It was about how many women were frequently frustrated and angry with their husbands, even though they loved them and were generally happy in their marriages. I had already read the article and it was like someone was articulating thoughts that I couldn't even form. It was very much the same kind of stuff that women are sharing here.
The thread was a fucking trainwreck. A disgusting, vitriolic disaster, with only a few exceptions. It was crushing to read the responses. I wanted to chime in but felt I'd be ripped apart. It was so hard to put into words, so hard to try to make someone else understand . . . and IMO the original author had done such a good job in the first place, and she was being eviscerated, so what could I add?
It was a lonely feeling. I always felt like this was a place for smart, progressive people and that thread was devastating.
This current thread is amazing. Thank you to everyone who has contributed, especially to those sharing such personal stories. You are wonderful!
posted by peep at 3:38 PM on July 22, 2015 [47 favorites]
Several years ago there was a thread here about an article in a parenting magazine. It was about how many women were frequently frustrated and angry with their husbands, even though they loved them and were generally happy in their marriages. I had already read the article and it was like someone was articulating thoughts that I couldn't even form. It was very much the same kind of stuff that women are sharing here.
The thread was a fucking trainwreck. A disgusting, vitriolic disaster, with only a few exceptions. It was crushing to read the responses. I wanted to chime in but felt I'd be ripped apart. It was so hard to put into words, so hard to try to make someone else understand . . . and IMO the original author had done such a good job in the first place, and she was being eviscerated, so what could I add?
It was a lonely feeling. I always felt like this was a place for smart, progressive people and that thread was devastating.
This current thread is amazing. Thank you to everyone who has contributed, especially to those sharing such personal stories. You are wonderful!
posted by peep at 3:38 PM on July 22, 2015 [47 favorites]
We're actually frequently dating nice, even feminist men who have a MASSIVE blind spot.
QUOTED FOR FUCKING TRUTH
I met the husband in college, when I was a German major and he was in Engineering. We liked the same books, some of the same music, he thought it was fascinating that I was intending to teach German, I though he was nuts for pursuing Mechanical Engineering. (He eventually agreed and switched to Business Administration when the stress started to make his hair fall out.) We liked to go try different restaurants, he was always excited to try new things. We'd roll the windows down in the car, turn the stereo way up, and just drive. (Gas was still 99 cents a gallon then.) He was (and is) kind and funny and all the things you would want in a companion.
Thing is, we weren't living together. And I didn't get clued in to his obliviousness until we got married and were all up in each others' bidniz 24/7/365. He's a good guy. He's a great Dad! He works hard, he tries to not be an asshole, but sometimes he is just OBLIVIOUS. It doesn't mean he's evil, but it is so fucking AGGRAVATING. He has gotten a lot better about reigning in his Inner Dumbshit, but it does still occasionally get off the leash and drive me mad.
How much happier would the world be if it was just ACKNOWLEDGED that women have needs that are just as important, and some tiny smidge of EFFORT was made to meet them? Oh, wait...that's what this thread is, right?
posted by MissySedai at 3:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
QUOTED FOR FUCKING TRUTH
I met the husband in college, when I was a German major and he was in Engineering. We liked the same books, some of the same music, he thought it was fascinating that I was intending to teach German, I though he was nuts for pursuing Mechanical Engineering. (He eventually agreed and switched to Business Administration when the stress started to make his hair fall out.) We liked to go try different restaurants, he was always excited to try new things. We'd roll the windows down in the car, turn the stereo way up, and just drive. (Gas was still 99 cents a gallon then.) He was (and is) kind and funny and all the things you would want in a companion.
Thing is, we weren't living together. And I didn't get clued in to his obliviousness until we got married and were all up in each others' bidniz 24/7/365. He's a good guy. He's a great Dad! He works hard, he tries to not be an asshole, but sometimes he is just OBLIVIOUS. It doesn't mean he's evil, but it is so fucking AGGRAVATING. He has gotten a lot better about reigning in his Inner Dumbshit, but it does still occasionally get off the leash and drive me mad.
How much happier would the world be if it was just ACKNOWLEDGED that women have needs that are just as important, and some tiny smidge of EFFORT was made to meet them? Oh, wait...that's what this thread is, right?
posted by MissySedai at 3:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [21 favorites]
Things I understand as a result of reading this thread:
How to explain the background radiation of contentment I gained access to as a bachelorette that I had not even thought was possible for me. I dated a series of people who only increased in their ignorance of emotional labor from one person to the next. The last person was so toxic that I legit broke whatever internal drive existed that caused me to seek out romantic partnering. For most of my life I was absolutely DEPENDENT on getting validation from a boyfriend. I needed it! I was kinda weird and crazy in my pursuit of it! The self preserving part of my brain apparently pushed the kill switch on the seek a boyfriend mechanism and now I'm catching up with the impact of losing that drive and it is... feeling content. Taking care of myself. Feeling my life get more and more stable.
Why my sister's friends scare me. They are all straight geniuses at emotional labor and I am for sure incompetent. I had felt smug about this before (e.g., I am a tom boy and they are girly sorority girls and I am an introvert and they are just all extroverts I am low maintenance and they are just drama blah blah blah) but now after this thread I just feel like I have a lot of thank yous to send and lessons to learn.
That I have failed in a thousand ways at pulling my weight. I will try to do better. This thread is a mind blowing guide of how to do better.
posted by skrozidile at 3:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
How to explain the background radiation of contentment I gained access to as a bachelorette that I had not even thought was possible for me. I dated a series of people who only increased in their ignorance of emotional labor from one person to the next. The last person was so toxic that I legit broke whatever internal drive existed that caused me to seek out romantic partnering. For most of my life I was absolutely DEPENDENT on getting validation from a boyfriend. I needed it! I was kinda weird and crazy in my pursuit of it! The self preserving part of my brain apparently pushed the kill switch on the seek a boyfriend mechanism and now I'm catching up with the impact of losing that drive and it is... feeling content. Taking care of myself. Feeling my life get more and more stable.
Why my sister's friends scare me. They are all straight geniuses at emotional labor and I am for sure incompetent. I had felt smug about this before (e.g., I am a tom boy and they are girly sorority girls and I am an introvert and they are just all extroverts I am low maintenance and they are just drama blah blah blah) but now after this thread I just feel like I have a lot of thank yous to send and lessons to learn.
That I have failed in a thousand ways at pulling my weight. I will try to do better. This thread is a mind blowing guide of how to do better.
posted by skrozidile at 3:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
I just can't identity with someone who persists in contacting someone who doesn't want to be contacted, or will feel in any way guilty about not cleaning the tops of windows or not being able to fold a fitted sheet.
So don't identify with the stories, then. I didn't share my story as an easily-absorbed philosophical piece for you or for anyone else; it's MY truth. Christ, that's pretty much the kernel of the problem that IS emotional labor, this expectation that women are supposed to think ahead and curb and tailor their thoughts into easily-consumed parcels for men and FOR GOD'S SAKE don't rock the boat.
No. I'm telling a story. Whether or not you find it personally relevant or would prefer something a little less extreme? I don't care. Let us tell our stories without someone jumping in to say our stories aren't touching them personally because our realities are too extreme.
posted by kinetic at 3:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [99 favorites]
So don't identify with the stories, then. I didn't share my story as an easily-absorbed philosophical piece for you or for anyone else; it's MY truth. Christ, that's pretty much the kernel of the problem that IS emotional labor, this expectation that women are supposed to think ahead and curb and tailor their thoughts into easily-consumed parcels for men and FOR GOD'S SAKE don't rock the boat.
No. I'm telling a story. Whether or not you find it personally relevant or would prefer something a little less extreme? I don't care. Let us tell our stories without someone jumping in to say our stories aren't touching them personally because our realities are too extreme.
posted by kinetic at 3:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [99 favorites]
I love this thread in general, but some of the "I will never ever have another relationship again" statements are making me uncomfortable.
Why? And this is absolutely a serious question, because I am dealing with exactly that sentiment from my mother lately where she is just really uncomfortable with another relative's perpetual, intentional singlehood, and I'm just...like, we have these conversations and I don't seem to have access to her thought pattern on this, and she cannot fully explain it either.
I mean currently I am partnered with a cishet dude, and I don't plan to change that status. If anything, this thread has actually made me somewhat MORE patient with him, as it has made me more able to articulate to myself his various emotional contributions to our household and relationship--things that otherwise could have been drowned out in my irritation at other stuff, you know? (See: my original comment re imaginary shower arguments.)
But I also, after two decades almost of "trying to catch a may-un," am emotionally in a place where if this relationship ended, I honestly would make no proactive efforts to find another. I have an extremely fulfilling life in a lot of ways, and a relationship is nice to have -- I mean, seriously, my partner is great -- but also requires a lot from me. And life is going to get harder before it gets easier, for reals. My mom's gonna age and need care, my siblings are gonna have kids and weddings and life shit, my job is going to need more and more of me. And while I feel confident that my current real-life partner is going to make that part of my life easier and happier, I do not feel confident that "random potential future partner" will, and meanwhile I'd have to put in the effort to find him.
So why would it be so crazy if I found myself single at, say, 35 and said, "fuck it, man, I'm gonna backburner this dating shit indefinitely because it's just one more thing that needs my attention."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
Why? And this is absolutely a serious question, because I am dealing with exactly that sentiment from my mother lately where she is just really uncomfortable with another relative's perpetual, intentional singlehood, and I'm just...like, we have these conversations and I don't seem to have access to her thought pattern on this, and she cannot fully explain it either.
I mean currently I am partnered with a cishet dude, and I don't plan to change that status. If anything, this thread has actually made me somewhat MORE patient with him, as it has made me more able to articulate to myself his various emotional contributions to our household and relationship--things that otherwise could have been drowned out in my irritation at other stuff, you know? (See: my original comment re imaginary shower arguments.)
But I also, after two decades almost of "trying to catch a may-un," am emotionally in a place where if this relationship ended, I honestly would make no proactive efforts to find another. I have an extremely fulfilling life in a lot of ways, and a relationship is nice to have -- I mean, seriously, my partner is great -- but also requires a lot from me. And life is going to get harder before it gets easier, for reals. My mom's gonna age and need care, my siblings are gonna have kids and weddings and life shit, my job is going to need more and more of me. And while I feel confident that my current real-life partner is going to make that part of my life easier and happier, I do not feel confident that "random potential future partner" will, and meanwhile I'd have to put in the effort to find him.
So why would it be so crazy if I found myself single at, say, 35 and said, "fuck it, man, I'm gonna backburner this dating shit indefinitely because it's just one more thing that needs my attention."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
"'So why would it be so crazy if I found myself single at, say, 35 and said, "fuck it, man, I'm gonna backburner this dating shit indefinitely because it's just one more thing that needs my attention.'"
It would not be crazy at all. It would be considered and rational.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 3:52 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
It would not be crazy at all. It would be considered and rational.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 3:52 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
I love this thread in general, but some of the "I will never ever have another relationship again" statements are making me uncomfortable.
Some of the ...entire culture devoted to telling me that I am only an emotionally healthy person if I am either actively pursuing a romantic relationship or in a relationship that is progressing according to culturally accepted timelines for significant milestones is uncomfortable.
I was an evangelical in my teens and losing my faith felt exactly the same as losing my romantic drive. It is uncomfortable to lose both of those things.
I am not choosing to live my life without hope (my Christian mother's fear for my now atheist life) and I am not choosing to live my life without love or relationships or community. If anything I have gained a much wider definition of what all of those things can be.
posted by skrozidile at 3:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [43 favorites]
Some of the ...entire culture devoted to telling me that I am only an emotionally healthy person if I am either actively pursuing a romantic relationship or in a relationship that is progressing according to culturally accepted timelines for significant milestones is uncomfortable.
I was an evangelical in my teens and losing my faith felt exactly the same as losing my romantic drive. It is uncomfortable to lose both of those things.
I am not choosing to live my life without hope (my Christian mother's fear for my now atheist life) and I am not choosing to live my life without love or relationships or community. If anything I have gained a much wider definition of what all of those things can be.
posted by skrozidile at 3:55 PM on July 22, 2015 [43 favorites]
Why? And this is absolutely a serious question, because I am dealing with exactly that sentiment from my mother lately where she is just really uncomfortable with another relative's perpetual, intentional singlehood, and I'm just...like, we have these conversations and I don't seem to have access to her thought pattern on this, and she cannot fully explain it either.
I've had this conversation with relative. In my case it was me expressing that I didn't know when or even if I was interested in dating again and that I wasn't worried or even concerned about thinking about it. She at first had problems comprehending why I wasn't super concerned to 'work through it' or that I was in some sort of denial and pushing my issues down. Suppose it's possible that's what I might be doing but I don't really care if I am. I explained that I was just working on being happy again and get good with myself.
That led to her expressing that's what she wanted, she wanted to see me happy again. It became clear through more conversation that in her mind true happiness is connected with being in love and being with someone else. Her intentions were good, it's just that she can't comphrehend that it's possible to be truly happy unless one is in a good relationship. Basically that if your not, or not desiring to be that there is some sort of denial going on. She didn't want me to be lonely essentially and in her world not lonely means being partnered.
posted by Jalliah at 3:58 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've had this conversation with relative. In my case it was me expressing that I didn't know when or even if I was interested in dating again and that I wasn't worried or even concerned about thinking about it. She at first had problems comprehending why I wasn't super concerned to 'work through it' or that I was in some sort of denial and pushing my issues down. Suppose it's possible that's what I might be doing but I don't really care if I am. I explained that I was just working on being happy again and get good with myself.
That led to her expressing that's what she wanted, she wanted to see me happy again. It became clear through more conversation that in her mind true happiness is connected with being in love and being with someone else. Her intentions were good, it's just that she can't comphrehend that it's possible to be truly happy unless one is in a good relationship. Basically that if your not, or not desiring to be that there is some sort of denial going on. She didn't want me to be lonely essentially and in her world not lonely means being partnered.
posted by Jalliah at 3:58 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
the ...entire culture devoted to telling me that I am only an emotionally healthy person if I am either actively pursuing a romantic relationship or in a relationship that is progressing according to culturally accepted timelines for significant milestones is uncomfortable.
OMFG YES.
posted by TwoStride at 4:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
OMFG YES.
posted by TwoStride at 4:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
but felt I'd be ripped apartI know how that feels. Oh lordy, do I know how that feels here.
posted by Ambient Echo at 4:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Those extreme examples are real life stories from real women posting in this thread.
Right, and the men responsible for all these extreme examples wouldn't see whichever stunning or hilarious thing they did as stunning or hilarious at all. Standing there six inches away from your glasses trying to see soap without your glasses and bleating for help? What? Normal behavior! It's not like smidgeon is around, having checked out of the thread upon realizing it was "kind of a vent session," or whatever was the phrasing, but: these guys are not outliers; they're all average guys. This kind of thing is pretty average behavior and none of the people behaving this way see anything wrong with it. Male voices saying the to-me-totally-obvious thing phearlez said upthread, some permutation of "I don't want a cookie because I have figured out that the cookie is that [doing baseline emotional work] makes my life vastly easier"--male voices saying anything like that are very rare. Male voices saying "so what you're saying is that if I don't wipe dust off the windowframes I should feel terrible?" are very common. Look, when my first live-in boyfriend and I broke up, a few days later I encountered a cockroach of some size in the bathroom and I had a hysterical fit because in the time we lived together I had sortofkindof on purpose "forgotten" how to deal with vermin. It was emotional labor the boyfriend had been doing for me, and when he moved out and I faced the fact that I would have to start doing it for myself again, I went a little wacko and refused to face it and instead declared to myself that life was over and I would never survive because here was a big roach and what, I'm supposed to do something about that? Obviously I cannot and will soon die! If instead of being in charge of killing roaches he'd been in charge of finding soap I might've had a hysterical fit while standing naked and dripping wet in front of a cupboard full of soap resolutely refusing to put on my glasses and explaining to myself that no more would soap be a part of my world. I think there is a phenomenon where some people never have to learn to kill their own roaches or find their own soap because they either find life partners who are not put off by having to do all the roach/soap duty or they move through a series of partners who are willing to take on this work for a time, and these people never run out of partners willing to serve. I am not in that category. I have had to relearn how to kill roaches. (Spray them with rubbing alcohol using this bottle, available at the Lowe's.) It's okay to be ridiculous about this stuff: we all tell ourselves idiotic, infantile stories about our own behavior. Some of us have to learn to detect our own bullshit and change our behavior, and some of us don't have to do that. It would be in everyone's best interest, though, if we all just assumed we're in the latter category and learned to take care of ourselves, just in case we ever find ourselves alone for a while. Or! In case we'd like to attract and keep a great mate. Or make deep and enduring mutually supportive relationships with offspring, siblings, friends, co-workers--in short, the dear and worthwhile other humans with whom we share our roach-free, soap-filled, happy lives.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [41 favorites]
Right, and the men responsible for all these extreme examples wouldn't see whichever stunning or hilarious thing they did as stunning or hilarious at all. Standing there six inches away from your glasses trying to see soap without your glasses and bleating for help? What? Normal behavior! It's not like smidgeon is around, having checked out of the thread upon realizing it was "kind of a vent session," or whatever was the phrasing, but: these guys are not outliers; they're all average guys. This kind of thing is pretty average behavior and none of the people behaving this way see anything wrong with it. Male voices saying the to-me-totally-obvious thing phearlez said upthread, some permutation of "I don't want a cookie because I have figured out that the cookie is that [doing baseline emotional work] makes my life vastly easier"--male voices saying anything like that are very rare. Male voices saying "so what you're saying is that if I don't wipe dust off the windowframes I should feel terrible?" are very common. Look, when my first live-in boyfriend and I broke up, a few days later I encountered a cockroach of some size in the bathroom and I had a hysterical fit because in the time we lived together I had sortofkindof on purpose "forgotten" how to deal with vermin. It was emotional labor the boyfriend had been doing for me, and when he moved out and I faced the fact that I would have to start doing it for myself again, I went a little wacko and refused to face it and instead declared to myself that life was over and I would never survive because here was a big roach and what, I'm supposed to do something about that? Obviously I cannot and will soon die! If instead of being in charge of killing roaches he'd been in charge of finding soap I might've had a hysterical fit while standing naked and dripping wet in front of a cupboard full of soap resolutely refusing to put on my glasses and explaining to myself that no more would soap be a part of my world. I think there is a phenomenon where some people never have to learn to kill their own roaches or find their own soap because they either find life partners who are not put off by having to do all the roach/soap duty or they move through a series of partners who are willing to take on this work for a time, and these people never run out of partners willing to serve. I am not in that category. I have had to relearn how to kill roaches. (Spray them with rubbing alcohol using this bottle, available at the Lowe's.) It's okay to be ridiculous about this stuff: we all tell ourselves idiotic, infantile stories about our own behavior. Some of us have to learn to detect our own bullshit and change our behavior, and some of us don't have to do that. It would be in everyone's best interest, though, if we all just assumed we're in the latter category and learned to take care of ourselves, just in case we ever find ourselves alone for a while. Or! In case we'd like to attract and keep a great mate. Or make deep and enduring mutually supportive relationships with offspring, siblings, friends, co-workers--in short, the dear and worthwhile other humans with whom we share our roach-free, soap-filled, happy lives.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [41 favorites]
I think there may be some misunderstanding that this thread exists in service of educating men. It does not. That thread is in the green.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [80 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 4:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [80 favorites]
Yeah, here's how I feel about people who are uncomfortable with my choice to remain single. Like, OK, it makes me uncomfortable when my partnered women friends literally cry about how their significant others don't respect or even acknowledge how much work they put into holding down a full-time job outside the house only to come home after a long day and be expected to put in another shift to take care of everything inside the house, but do I tell them about my dumb old discomfort? Nah. Instead of trying to make it about me, I keep it zipped, buy them cocktails, play with their kids, watch reality TV with them, and tell them over and over again that they're strong and resilient and wonderful and inspiring. They're adults, I trust them to do what's best for them.
So now I'm gonna go to a rap show and flail around and sing along, get mad tipsy, flirt with random dudes and then go home alone at the end of the night, and I'm gonna feel totally rad about all of it because living life on my own terms is the sweetest nectar of all. I'm not lonely or angry or embittered, I'm full of piss and vinegar and hope and sparkles and charm. And shit, I'm about to be full of fruity drinks. A toast to my Islanders! You're the best.
posted by divined by radio at 4:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [66 favorites]
So now I'm gonna go to a rap show and flail around and sing along, get mad tipsy, flirt with random dudes and then go home alone at the end of the night, and I'm gonna feel totally rad about all of it because living life on my own terms is the sweetest nectar of all. I'm not lonely or angry or embittered, I'm full of piss and vinegar and hope and sparkles and charm. And shit, I'm about to be full of fruity drinks. A toast to my Islanders! You're the best.
posted by divined by radio at 4:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [66 favorites]
I'm often the only man in the room full of women. This is especially frequent at events for my kids, especially my daughter, especially at girl scout stuff. To the point that my daughter makes a big deal of it. "Why can't mom take me to this? Nobody else's dad is here."
To be quite honest, I often felt angry about this. These kids activities -- I thought they were important for the kids to do them, and my wife kind of had the attitude, "fine. you want them to do that activity, you're on the hook for the parental time commitment related to the activity." And so I'd take care of said activity, but -- especially when I'm the 'only man in the room' -- I'd feel kinda pissed that my wife wasn't taking care of this stuff.
This thread is eye-opening, and frankly saddening to me. Clearly my anger about carrying what I perceived to be more than my fair share of emotional labor was misplaced. So much of this 'thinking my wife should do this' comes down to my (cultural, and culturally reinforced) perception of what she should do in the emotional labor arena. So I'm rather sad, reading this, that I'm as complicit as anyone at laying all this bullshit at my wife's feet. For years.
Thanks, metafilter, for giving me the 'language' to understand 'emotional labor.'
posted by Doc_Sock at 4:09 PM on July 22, 2015 [131 favorites]
To be quite honest, I often felt angry about this. These kids activities -- I thought they were important for the kids to do them, and my wife kind of had the attitude, "fine. you want them to do that activity, you're on the hook for the parental time commitment related to the activity." And so I'd take care of said activity, but -- especially when I'm the 'only man in the room' -- I'd feel kinda pissed that my wife wasn't taking care of this stuff.
This thread is eye-opening, and frankly saddening to me. Clearly my anger about carrying what I perceived to be more than my fair share of emotional labor was misplaced. So much of this 'thinking my wife should do this' comes down to my (cultural, and culturally reinforced) perception of what she should do in the emotional labor arena. So I'm rather sad, reading this, that I'm as complicit as anyone at laying all this bullshit at my wife's feet. For years.
Thanks, metafilter, for giving me the 'language' to understand 'emotional labor.'
posted by Doc_Sock at 4:09 PM on July 22, 2015 [131 favorites]
Doc Sock, I'm angry at the rest of the dads who left all the parenting duties to the wives.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:13 PM on July 22, 2015 [30 favorites]
I feel like I'm probably not the only one in this thread who would wear this shirt. I first saw it on a man at a roller derby match and I wanted to chase him down and befriend him immediately. Alas, he left before I found him again.
posted by chatongriffes at 4:22 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by chatongriffes at 4:22 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
My 'cockroach duty' was dog barf. My Dad always dealt with dog barf. Me dealing with dog barf leads to me gagging and choking, with streaming eyes trying not to barf myself. We always had big dogs so dog barf was massive. When I got into a long term relationship and a couple of dogs we agreed that he would be on dog barf duty.
Then I became single with the two big dogs....
Dealing with dog barf was hard. Just not gut wrenching hard but emotionally and symbolically hard.
I still hate it but I have no problem dealing with dog barf now. You do what you gotta do.
posted by Jalliah at 4:36 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Then I became single with the two big dogs....
Dealing with dog barf was hard. Just not gut wrenching hard but emotionally and symbolically hard.
I still hate it but I have no problem dealing with dog barf now. You do what you gotta do.
posted by Jalliah at 4:36 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Anyway, I can see this is kind of a venting session, so I will step out...
This strikes me as incredibly dismissive.
What I see:
women having epiphanies.
women supporting and validating each other.
women having a real discussion.
women sharing their lived experiences.
women expressing their frustrations.
women coming together in a real and sincere comradery.
Venting? Sure. Many women have expressed their frustrations with their SO and their love for them in the same comment.
You decided to "step out" but not before you had your say. This thread has been amazing. So, so, so much more than venting
posted by futz at 5:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [136 favorites]
This strikes me as incredibly dismissive.
What I see:
women having epiphanies.
women supporting and validating each other.
women having a real discussion.
women sharing their lived experiences.
women expressing their frustrations.
women coming together in a real and sincere comradery.
Venting? Sure. Many women have expressed their frustrations with their SO and their love for them in the same comment.
You decided to "step out" but not before you had your say. This thread has been amazing. So, so, so much more than venting
posted by futz at 5:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [136 favorites]
This month's cronecrate has this shirt, a 20% coupon for Babeland, and so much more!
posted by palomar at 5:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by palomar at 5:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm very late to this thread, for two reasons: one is that it has been difficult to read and has unearthed many emotional memories of living with my son's father (I won't regale you; suffice to say that I finally asked him to move out and never regretted it for a second). The other is that I've been privy to this exact conversation, back in the early 70s; we used to call it a "consciousness-raising session". I didn't realize that the concepts of emotional labour and female responsibility weren't generally and widely understood-- it seemed that the whole world then (I was about 13, so my focus was narrow) was working this stuff out, that women were angry about housework (wages for housework!) and inviting men to care for their children. I thought it had sunk into the culture a bit more and it's a bit dismaying to discover that this is new territory-- or newly articulated-- for many younger women here. But that's social change, I suppose-- it's not a straight line towards utopia.
But I too have been shouldering the emotional labour as my parents have aged, and so I'm dropping off my story here. It's this: when my mother came out of the hospital after having both hips replaced, I left my apartment and slept on her living room couch for three weeks so that I could help with her recovery, and cook for her and be available in case she needed anything during the night. And everyone thought that this was the correct and appropriate thing for me to do, despite the fact that my brother was already living there. So yes, this thread is one that resonates a great deal in my own life, despite everything.
posted by jokeefe at 5:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [80 favorites]
But I too have been shouldering the emotional labour as my parents have aged, and so I'm dropping off my story here. It's this: when my mother came out of the hospital after having both hips replaced, I left my apartment and slept on her living room couch for three weeks so that I could help with her recovery, and cook for her and be available in case she needed anything during the night. And everyone thought that this was the correct and appropriate thing for me to do, despite the fact that my brother was already living there. So yes, this thread is one that resonates a great deal in my own life, despite everything.
posted by jokeefe at 5:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [80 favorites]
This thread has been giving me a focus and new framework to think about things that have been going on in my life as I deal with my partner (#notjustmen...) who is recovering from a period of disability during which I was breadwinner, caretaker, etc. A lot of what I'm reading here doesn't directly mirror my experiences for a variety of reasons, but just getting the *vocabulary* to help describe it is incredible.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:16 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 5:16 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I find myself wishing for a forum where this conversation could continue. But I can let it go, too. It's been enough just as it is. I'm so grateful.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 5:21 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 5:21 PM on July 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I can see this is kind of a venting session, so I will step out...
We're nearing on a thousand comments of (mostly) women sharing their stories and talking about how the world is structured really badly and you walk away with venting session as your takeaway?
Dude. Do better. Seriously.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:27 PM on July 22, 2015 [83 favorites]
We're nearing on a thousand comments of (mostly) women sharing their stories and talking about how the world is structured really badly and you walk away with venting session as your takeaway?
Dude. Do better. Seriously.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:27 PM on July 22, 2015 [83 favorites]
sister nunchaku, if you drop Lyn Never a MeMail she might know of somewhere.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:28 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yep, the link is in my profile.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 5:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Don Pepino: these guys are not outliers; they're all average guys. This kind of thing is pretty average behavior and none of the people behaving this way see anything wrong with it
Hell, in some cases (since being the SOs of MeFites provides some level of filter), they're above average guys. Which in its own way, is even more infuriating. My beloved husband (aka SoapDude forever now I guess?) is fan-fucking-tastic in some areas. Like, I feel really terrible for everyone talking about emotional labor vis a vis sex, but I also cannot relate to that at all. Which is good, because I think that or Google Glass or holograph technology would render our marriage completely unsalvageable as opposed to just occasionally fucking stupid.
And it's not like I don't sometimes have my soap, or my cockroaches - sometimes I think I'll lob something his way as a kneejerk reaction, like I'm trying to stick it to him by evening the emotional labor scales with whatever item on my plate has become the current last straw that I Just Cannot Deal With. One of the things I truly love about this thread is it's giving me some framework for being more systematic about how I talk about and distribute my efforts and energies, as opposed to just waiting until I've had it up to here and dumping random tasks on my partner to make myself feel better about the inequity. Which rarely solves anything.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:33 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
Hell, in some cases (since being the SOs of MeFites provides some level of filter), they're above average guys. Which in its own way, is even more infuriating. My beloved husband (aka SoapDude forever now I guess?) is fan-fucking-tastic in some areas. Like, I feel really terrible for everyone talking about emotional labor vis a vis sex, but I also cannot relate to that at all. Which is good, because I think that or Google Glass or holograph technology would render our marriage completely unsalvageable as opposed to just occasionally fucking stupid.
And it's not like I don't sometimes have my soap, or my cockroaches - sometimes I think I'll lob something his way as a kneejerk reaction, like I'm trying to stick it to him by evening the emotional labor scales with whatever item on my plate has become the current last straw that I Just Cannot Deal With. One of the things I truly love about this thread is it's giving me some framework for being more systematic about how I talk about and distribute my efforts and energies, as opposed to just waiting until I've had it up to here and dumping random tasks on my partner to make myself feel better about the inequity. Which rarely solves anything.
posted by deludingmyself at 5:33 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
Lyn, fffm, thank you!
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 5:34 PM on July 22, 2015
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 5:34 PM on July 22, 2015
> It's okay to be ridiculous about this stuff: we all tell ourselves idiotic, infantile stories about our own behavior. Some of us have to learn to detect our own bullshit and change our behavior, and some of us don't have to do that.
I just want to repost this brilliant excerpt from Don Pepino's comment above; it encapsulates part of what this thread is about. (Learning to detect our own bullshit is hard work, and changing our behavior is even harder!)
posted by languagehat at 5:34 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
I just want to repost this brilliant excerpt from Don Pepino's comment above; it encapsulates part of what this thread is about. (Learning to detect our own bullshit is hard work, and changing our behavior is even harder!)
posted by languagehat at 5:34 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
This thread has been blowing my mind for days, and I have barely been able to keep up. It has brought up so much for me about my marriage, but delving into that right now (school is about to start! work is about to ramp up!) feels like too much, too hopeless, and too painful to deal with right now. But this:
I think the realization that it's nigh on impossible to have a long term relationship where the dude carries his weight on emotional labor can be both sobering and liberating.
Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe not so much liberating at the moment.
Instead I'm choosing to think about my dear female friend, who does so much emotional labor for everyone in her life, who basically made me be her friend when I didn't really have any friends, and how I maybe haven't been pulling my weight in our friendship. I'm going to pick up some treats I know she would love and drop them off at her house this weekend.
I saw Magic Mike XXL with this friend recently, and it was so great, and now I can articulate that it was so great because the guys were ALL ABOUT doing emotional labor. There are multiple scenes where a man is asking a woman about herself, her preferences, her needs or her desires, and then using his creativity to offer something that will bring her joy (at different times, that is singing, dancing, stripping, sex, non-sexual companionship). I think the movie has caught people's attention BECAUSE seeing men, especially super attractive men, working so hard at emotional labor is so rare, but not a lot of the reviews or thinkpieces are using this lexicon.
Outside my hut on Crone Island will be a big offset smoker, in which I will grill-roast whole chickens, plank-grill fish, and smoke pork shoulders and brisket for the tacos. I will also sometimes grill pizzas, because they are delicious. And no one whose idea of advanced grilling is making hot dogs AND hamburgers at the same time with a propane grill will try to elbow me out of the way or 'splain to me what I should be doing differently. It will just be me, and the fire I made, and the beauty of meat becoming taco fillings. And sometimes pizza.
posted by jeoc at 5:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [69 favorites]
I think the realization that it's nigh on impossible to have a long term relationship where the dude carries his weight on emotional labor can be both sobering and liberating.
Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe not so much liberating at the moment.
Instead I'm choosing to think about my dear female friend, who does so much emotional labor for everyone in her life, who basically made me be her friend when I didn't really have any friends, and how I maybe haven't been pulling my weight in our friendship. I'm going to pick up some treats I know she would love and drop them off at her house this weekend.
I saw Magic Mike XXL with this friend recently, and it was so great, and now I can articulate that it was so great because the guys were ALL ABOUT doing emotional labor. There are multiple scenes where a man is asking a woman about herself, her preferences, her needs or her desires, and then using his creativity to offer something that will bring her joy (at different times, that is singing, dancing, stripping, sex, non-sexual companionship). I think the movie has caught people's attention BECAUSE seeing men, especially super attractive men, working so hard at emotional labor is so rare, but not a lot of the reviews or thinkpieces are using this lexicon.
Outside my hut on Crone Island will be a big offset smoker, in which I will grill-roast whole chickens, plank-grill fish, and smoke pork shoulders and brisket for the tacos. I will also sometimes grill pizzas, because they are delicious. And no one whose idea of advanced grilling is making hot dogs AND hamburgers at the same time with a propane grill will try to elbow me out of the way or 'splain to me what I should be doing differently. It will just be me, and the fire I made, and the beauty of meat becoming taco fillings. And sometimes pizza.
posted by jeoc at 5:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [69 favorites]
I don't know what to say, but thank you all. So many revelations. So many wonderful people. I feel like I've woken up to reality, and damn it's harsh, but at the same time such a relief. It's not just me, I can stop feeling guilty and bad and inadequate for so many things. And I can get off this exhausting wheel of grinding responsibility for (virtually) EVERYTHING. And maybe my husband will even be with me, who knows!
And I really really want to have a real Crone Island vacation. Seriously.
posted by pennypiper at 5:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
And I really really want to have a real Crone Island vacation. Seriously.
posted by pennypiper at 5:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
Incidentally, these women were going to Crone Island before it was cool.
posted by languagehat at 5:46 PM on July 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 5:46 PM on July 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
This thread needs to be collected into a book that I can give to every guy I know. Especially the ones who want me to soothe them when they whine to me about having no friends, yet make no effort whatsoever to maintain contact with anyone unless it immediately benefits them.
Put me down for a share of Crone Island. I'll need a Cat Palace on my lot.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 5:49 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Put me down for a share of Crone Island. I'll need a Cat Palace on my lot.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 5:49 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
languagehat,
That story is still so fantastically true, all these years later. It's not Tiptree's best, but jesus is it her most evocative. "What women do is survive. We live by ones and twos in the chinks of your world-machine", indeed.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:56 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
That story is still so fantastically true, all these years later. It's not Tiptree's best, but jesus is it her most evocative. "What women do is survive. We live by ones and twos in the chinks of your world-machine", indeed.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:56 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I want to sound a note of caution with language about cruises and vacations that we make sure all women are getting a vacation. There is an undercurrent of exotification and offloading of work onto local women that comes imbedded in those sorts of images, and teasing it out so that all women's emotional work is respected, and we tend to those who we assume exist to tend to us, is very important.
jokeefe: The other is that I've been privy to this exact conversation, back in the early 70s; we used to call it a "consciousness-raising session". I didn't realize that the concepts of emotional labour and female responsibility weren't generally and widely understood-- it seemed that the whole world then (I was about 13, so my focus was narrow) was working this stuff out, that women were angry about housework (wages for housework!) and inviting men to care for their children. I thought it had sunk into the culture a bit more and it's a bit dismaying to discover that this is new territory-- or newly articulated-- for many younger women here. But that's social change, I suppose-- it's not a straight line towards utopia.
Having watched people transform their lives, I've come to accept that true, sustained growth is not a line but a spiral. You identify a problem and circle around it for a while; come up with a technique to help and circle a while with the technique - slowly moving out from where you started. That movement makes another technique easier to find, and another, and another, and one day you look around and realize your life has transformed.
The spiral is infinitely larger when it's a culture.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
jokeefe: The other is that I've been privy to this exact conversation, back in the early 70s; we used to call it a "consciousness-raising session". I didn't realize that the concepts of emotional labour and female responsibility weren't generally and widely understood-- it seemed that the whole world then (I was about 13, so my focus was narrow) was working this stuff out, that women were angry about housework (wages for housework!) and inviting men to care for their children. I thought it had sunk into the culture a bit more and it's a bit dismaying to discover that this is new territory-- or newly articulated-- for many younger women here. But that's social change, I suppose-- it's not a straight line towards utopia.
Having watched people transform their lives, I've come to accept that true, sustained growth is not a line but a spiral. You identify a problem and circle around it for a while; come up with a technique to help and circle a while with the technique - slowly moving out from where you started. That movement makes another technique easier to find, and another, and another, and one day you look around and realize your life has transformed.
The spiral is infinitely larger when it's a culture.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:00 PM on July 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
I want to sound a note of caution with language about cruises and vacations that we make sure all women are getting a vacation. There is an undercurrent of exotification and offloading of work onto local women that comes imbedded in those sorts of images, and teasing it out so that all women's emotional work is respected, and we tend to those who we assume exist to tend to us, is very important.
It'd be a women's vacation. You know, we will all do the logistics, meal planning, buy the groceries, cook, clean up and still it will be a vacation because everyone will be sharing the work. At least that's my mental image of Crone Island. No servants, not being pampered, but just everyone doing a part.
posted by pennypiper at 6:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [43 favorites]
It'd be a women's vacation. You know, we will all do the logistics, meal planning, buy the groceries, cook, clean up and still it will be a vacation because everyone will be sharing the work. At least that's my mental image of Crone Island. No servants, not being pampered, but just everyone doing a part.
posted by pennypiper at 6:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [43 favorites]
And getting acknowledgement and appreciation for doing it.
posted by Lexica at 6:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 6:07 PM on July 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Last night I was thinking about the Ask vs Guess component of emotional labour and I came to a conclusion why I actually dislike a lot of Ask culture stuff - it seems to, primarily, uphold this irritating sense of entitlement in my experience.
It's "how was I supposed to know, you didn't ask/say it in the right way/break it into small digestible chunks for me".
It's "why didn't you ask? You just said all of these things in a conversation like I'm supposed to understand."
It's "no you need to ask to be treated with basic human kindness."
It's "well, no, you did ask but it wasn't the right way and you don't need it anyway."
It's "you can just say no, I know I pout and carry on and then harp on about what's wrong with you, but that's just how I am!"
It's "I just asked for this thing completely enormous as if it were a request for a cup of sugar, you should be able to understand the relative importance of the request."
It's "I expect you to do all the emotional labour of interpreting my questions, to answering them, to understanding them, but fuck you if you think I'm going to parse your statements since you didn't use the right words."
Like, the dude way up thread who asked for a phone charger - he felt not only entitled to ask, to take away a woman's time and energy, but to then debate her answer.
In what world is it entirely and utterly impossible to understand "want to drive me to X?" as a request that I would like you to drive me to X? Why is that utterly impossible to understand but "can you drive me to X?" is emotionally neutral? Believe me, none of us want to fucking take the garbage out or drive in the rain or do the washing up. Why is it that I am supposed to change what makes perfect rational sense to me, because someone else doesn't want to even try? Why is it so hard to have a fucking conversation instead of a series of yes no answers that may as well just be 'no' for all the damn effort anyone else puts in. I'm tired of that work being only done by me, and then getting critiqued for it.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [32 favorites]
It's "how was I supposed to know, you didn't ask/say it in the right way/break it into small digestible chunks for me".
It's "why didn't you ask? You just said all of these things in a conversation like I'm supposed to understand."
It's "no you need to ask to be treated with basic human kindness."
It's "well, no, you did ask but it wasn't the right way and you don't need it anyway."
It's "you can just say no, I know I pout and carry on and then harp on about what's wrong with you, but that's just how I am!"
It's "I just asked for this thing completely enormous as if it were a request for a cup of sugar, you should be able to understand the relative importance of the request."
It's "I expect you to do all the emotional labour of interpreting my questions, to answering them, to understanding them, but fuck you if you think I'm going to parse your statements since you didn't use the right words."
Like, the dude way up thread who asked for a phone charger - he felt not only entitled to ask, to take away a woman's time and energy, but to then debate her answer.
In what world is it entirely and utterly impossible to understand "want to drive me to X?" as a request that I would like you to drive me to X? Why is that utterly impossible to understand but "can you drive me to X?" is emotionally neutral? Believe me, none of us want to fucking take the garbage out or drive in the rain or do the washing up. Why is it that I am supposed to change what makes perfect rational sense to me, because someone else doesn't want to even try? Why is it so hard to have a fucking conversation instead of a series of yes no answers that may as well just be 'no' for all the damn effort anyone else puts in. I'm tired of that work being only done by me, and then getting critiqued for it.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [32 favorites]
Loving this thread and the idea of Crone Island (my place will serve Chicago-style deep dish pizzas.)
The caveats re: vacations and cruises are reminding me of a scene in the book The Women's Room where the women characters are imagining a farm where they all could live and a utopian community - they get bogged down in the details of how the work gets done, and one character says "I hate discussions of feminism that end up with whose turn it is to do the dishes." and another one says, "Me too, but at the end of the day there are still the fucking dishes."
posted by Daily Alice at 6:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [65 favorites]
The caveats re: vacations and cruises are reminding me of a scene in the book The Women's Room where the women characters are imagining a farm where they all could live and a utopian community - they get bogged down in the details of how the work gets done, and one character says "I hate discussions of feminism that end up with whose turn it is to do the dishes." and another one says, "Me too, but at the end of the day there are still the fucking dishes."
posted by Daily Alice at 6:20 PM on July 22, 2015 [65 favorites]
yeah i also kinda imagined robots or invisible fairy cleaners doing shit. for real. well, for real in my fantasy. no oppression of anyone unless we start talking rights of AI but that's different topic :)
In mine it has replicators like Star Trek where I just have to say want I feel like eating and like magic it appears.
posted by Jalliah at 6:29 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
In mine it has replicators like Star Trek where I just have to say want I feel like eating and like magic it appears.
posted by Jalliah at 6:29 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will happily do the dishes on Crone Island -- I find it a very soothing chore.
I have been thinking a lot today and yesterday about emotional labor and how it applies to my marriage and realizing my husband has gotten the raw end of the deal this year. I am a teacher, which is an intensely emotional-labor-filled profession. It leaves me unwilling to contribute much more when I come home in the evenings. My husband is currently unemployed and for the past school year has shouldered most of the EL burden, in terms of planning meals, cooking, cleaning, making appointments, making sure the animals were healthy/secreting in the correct location/fed, and listening to me moan about work when I came home. I think perhaps the main difference is that throughout the year I constantly thanked him and affirmed him for this work, because as a woman I recognize it as inherently valuable. I hope he soon finds a job and that we settle on something more equitable in terms of distribution of EL, but even if he doesn't I vow to shoulder somewhat more of the burden.
posted by coppermoss at 6:31 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I have been thinking a lot today and yesterday about emotional labor and how it applies to my marriage and realizing my husband has gotten the raw end of the deal this year. I am a teacher, which is an intensely emotional-labor-filled profession. It leaves me unwilling to contribute much more when I come home in the evenings. My husband is currently unemployed and for the past school year has shouldered most of the EL burden, in terms of planning meals, cooking, cleaning, making appointments, making sure the animals were healthy/secreting in the correct location/fed, and listening to me moan about work when I came home. I think perhaps the main difference is that throughout the year I constantly thanked him and affirmed him for this work, because as a woman I recognize it as inherently valuable. I hope he soon finds a job and that we settle on something more equitable in terms of distribution of EL, but even if he doesn't I vow to shoulder somewhat more of the burden.
posted by coppermoss at 6:31 PM on July 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I’ve been reading this thread at night while on a business trip (so sleep deprived!) and I thank everyone for their stories and insight and support - what I’ve been reading here has shifted the ground under my feet. My own situation is slightly different and I’ve been trying to parse it exactly. I haven’t read everything because i can’t keep up - new comments keep showing up - but I haven’t read anything exactly like it so maybe it’s interesting.
I get paid for emotional labor in my job in client services (partly project management, partly account management with some nerdy technical implementation bits thrown in). Yes, there are all sorts of objective measures and logistics associated with my work but at the end of the day I get paid (and paid well, more on that in a bit because I think it matters) for my ability to relate to our customers in a goal-oriented way that’s about getting them to change how they work to work with our product. It requires a TON of emotional labor and while I like these people generally and I love my workplace and mostly love my job it’s very draining to try to connect with people all the time - both ensuring things happen and also that their FEELINGS about these things are all positive and increasingly involved. I think I’m reasonably good at it, but it’s not a completely natural thing for me - I couldn’t be a therapist because mostly I just don’t give a shit what most people feel about anything only that I need to understand and sometimes change those feelings to GET SHIT DONE. But as we’ve discussed, doing emotional labor with no reciprocation from the person you do it for (they don’t need to, nor do I expect them to, care about my feelings) is draining. It’s a triangle relationship: I use emotional labor on them, they pay my company, I get compensated for my emotional labor by the company. But then… there’s this emotional labor deficit! So first, I guess: go into client services if you do actually want to be compensated for performing emotional labor but: second, know that money doesn’t always compensate for putting out that energy all the time.
At the end of my day I am SPENT. But I’ve used up most of my emotional labor energy on something that supports my family. I’m the breadwinner and my husband takes care of our home (no kids, two cats) and he’s phenomenal at taking care of us but more specifically at taking care of my physical and emotional needs to a level I’m not even entirely sure I deserve or even understand. I could write paragraphs about what he does (e.g. we co-ordinate schedules at night so he can be up early enough to have an egg sandwich waiting me when I step out of the shower despite not needing to get up at all; he cooks to my distressingly “midwestern taste”; he sends me supportive texts if he knows I’m having a big meeting or a stressful day - he’s honestly the best) but if I did you, like many of my female friends, would probably want to rent him and I’ve promised him I wouldn’t sell or rent him out. Though I do sometimes lend him if someone’s really in need.
It isn’t completely one-sided - I still tend to deal more with our personal logistics for example (ordering things from Amazon, making appointments, making lists for parties, etc.) but that suits my personality anyway. And I know to do what he’s doing he’s subsumed a lot of his own needs and preferences and certainly far more than I have done in our relationship. Our set-up is a traditional husband/wife just with the genders swapped. It works because it suits US and we’ve deliberately decided to set it up like that. And because we just don’t give a shit if other people don’t like it.*
Then I guess my life’s cycling of emotional labour is also a triangle (if MeFi allowed images I’d open OmniGraffle and draw a diagram of what I see in my head): I give it at work in exchange for money which I use to provide for myself and my husband and he gives emotional labor as his contribution in lieu of money. And it works for us but it feels so weird not to have that direct reciprocation at equal levels at any point. And while I believe my husband deserves every molecule of emotional labor I could and want to give him I’m not sure how I could do it in two places at once without just losing my goddamn mind. For now I just count myself lucky that he understands (and we talk about it a lot) that I can’t always give it to him because I’ve just given it all away that day to someone else. It sometimes feels like I’m cheating on him with my job! I don’t know that I want to change it - and he’s not offered any complaints - but one thing I’m taking away from this thread is that our largely swapped-traditional-gender-role there are things I need to watch out for in what I’m doing because of my more “male” role. I want to be on Crone Island but I think I could easily slide into Cootville too.
* This thread has also reminded me of Tina Fey’s story about Amy Poehler. I read that as Amy just refusing to do Jimmy’s emotional labor for him and make him comfortable with her and her humor.
posted by marylynn at 6:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
I get paid for emotional labor in my job in client services (partly project management, partly account management with some nerdy technical implementation bits thrown in). Yes, there are all sorts of objective measures and logistics associated with my work but at the end of the day I get paid (and paid well, more on that in a bit because I think it matters) for my ability to relate to our customers in a goal-oriented way that’s about getting them to change how they work to work with our product. It requires a TON of emotional labor and while I like these people generally and I love my workplace and mostly love my job it’s very draining to try to connect with people all the time - both ensuring things happen and also that their FEELINGS about these things are all positive and increasingly involved. I think I’m reasonably good at it, but it’s not a completely natural thing for me - I couldn’t be a therapist because mostly I just don’t give a shit what most people feel about anything only that I need to understand and sometimes change those feelings to GET SHIT DONE. But as we’ve discussed, doing emotional labor with no reciprocation from the person you do it for (they don’t need to, nor do I expect them to, care about my feelings) is draining. It’s a triangle relationship: I use emotional labor on them, they pay my company, I get compensated for my emotional labor by the company. But then… there’s this emotional labor deficit! So first, I guess: go into client services if you do actually want to be compensated for performing emotional labor but: second, know that money doesn’t always compensate for putting out that energy all the time.
At the end of my day I am SPENT. But I’ve used up most of my emotional labor energy on something that supports my family. I’m the breadwinner and my husband takes care of our home (no kids, two cats) and he’s phenomenal at taking care of us but more specifically at taking care of my physical and emotional needs to a level I’m not even entirely sure I deserve or even understand. I could write paragraphs about what he does (e.g. we co-ordinate schedules at night so he can be up early enough to have an egg sandwich waiting me when I step out of the shower despite not needing to get up at all; he cooks to my distressingly “midwestern taste”; he sends me supportive texts if he knows I’m having a big meeting or a stressful day - he’s honestly the best) but if I did you, like many of my female friends, would probably want to rent him and I’ve promised him I wouldn’t sell or rent him out. Though I do sometimes lend him if someone’s really in need.
It isn’t completely one-sided - I still tend to deal more with our personal logistics for example (ordering things from Amazon, making appointments, making lists for parties, etc.) but that suits my personality anyway. And I know to do what he’s doing he’s subsumed a lot of his own needs and preferences and certainly far more than I have done in our relationship. Our set-up is a traditional husband/wife just with the genders swapped. It works because it suits US and we’ve deliberately decided to set it up like that. And because we just don’t give a shit if other people don’t like it.*
Then I guess my life’s cycling of emotional labour is also a triangle (if MeFi allowed images I’d open OmniGraffle and draw a diagram of what I see in my head): I give it at work in exchange for money which I use to provide for myself and my husband and he gives emotional labor as his contribution in lieu of money. And it works for us but it feels so weird not to have that direct reciprocation at equal levels at any point. And while I believe my husband deserves every molecule of emotional labor I could and want to give him I’m not sure how I could do it in two places at once without just losing my goddamn mind. For now I just count myself lucky that he understands (and we talk about it a lot) that I can’t always give it to him because I’ve just given it all away that day to someone else. It sometimes feels like I’m cheating on him with my job! I don’t know that I want to change it - and he’s not offered any complaints - but one thing I’m taking away from this thread is that our largely swapped-traditional-gender-role there are things I need to watch out for in what I’m doing because of my more “male” role. I want to be on Crone Island but I think I could easily slide into Cootville too.
* This thread has also reminded me of Tina Fey’s story about Amy Poehler. I read that as Amy just refusing to do Jimmy’s emotional labor for him and make him comfortable with her and her humor.
posted by marylynn at 6:42 PM on July 22, 2015 [38 favorites]
That is my FAVORITE Amy Poehler story of many. I DON'T fucking care if you like it, Jimmy Fallon.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Yeah, and anyway, god knows I can't afford any cruise to the damn Galapagos--mad as I got at my mom, she's pretty right that it just is way too spendy. Jeoc's smoker has me fully convinced, however. I have to get to that island. Let's go to Detroit and buy one of those thirty-dollar mansions and pack it full of blenders and booze and call it Crone Island. These people might be there if they're not off on their bikes. Also, there's a roller derby. And I've never been to Detroit, so in my book it counts as exotic.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 7:06 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
I've been on metafilter for a long time, first as a lurker and then as an account holder (but still lurking). I drifted away a few years ago because of how badly feminist threads have historically gone so when I saw this thread post on the blue I just skipped right over it. It was the mention over on MeTa that convinced me to take a look and I'm glad.
I'm the project manager for a small-ish non-profit. All I do (really) is emotional labor. I joked to my boss that it is 95% managing people and 5% spreadsheets to explain to everyone what the managing people time is to other people. Way up thread someone asked about how do you get paid to do emotional labor and this is definitely one way to do it. Be in non-profit and be a project manager. The downside is that I come home and I don't have an EL spoons left over for anything else except my partially disabled daughter. The thought of trying to add any kind of romantic relationship on top of that and it's no wonder I'm 46 and single. I don't even miss it most of the time and I thought I was broken for that. Thank you all for telling me I'm not.
posted by ladyriffraff at 7:24 PM on July 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
I'm the project manager for a small-ish non-profit. All I do (really) is emotional labor. I joked to my boss that it is 95% managing people and 5% spreadsheets to explain to everyone what the managing people time is to other people. Way up thread someone asked about how do you get paid to do emotional labor and this is definitely one way to do it. Be in non-profit and be a project manager. The downside is that I come home and I don't have an EL spoons left over for anything else except my partially disabled daughter. The thought of trying to add any kind of romantic relationship on top of that and it's no wonder I'm 46 and single. I don't even miss it most of the time and I thought I was broken for that. Thank you all for telling me I'm not.
posted by ladyriffraff at 7:24 PM on July 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
I can't find it now but years ago I read an article that in some ways seems like a no-brainer but was just an epiphany at the time, about how performing emotion work as part of your job when it isn't really what you feel (basically, faking it because the job requires you to) results in all kinds of stress, depression, etc.
For those of us who do emotional labour professionally, how do you deal with it? Maybe this is an Ask, but it seems like a semi-recurrent theme here so I thought I'd float it to see what people think.
Also, I didn't mean to make it sound like all lesbians are totally enlightened and never take each other's emotional labour for granted. That completely happens. I've posted other things on the blue about how living in a patriarchal world in which desire for women is constructed as masculine can shape the behaviour of women trying to express their desire for women. For example, some butch women who objectify femme women, treating them as commodities to be traded with other butches - if you don't want her, I'll have her kind of thing. (It's not just/always a butch/femme thing but that's one of the first examples that sprang to mind.) So yeah, women can definitely be just as entitled/oblivious to each other. As others have pointed out, it often goes along with privilege so white women with women of colour, able-bodied women with disabled women, etc.
My most masculine-presenting ex, who had tried living as a boy (her term), had a whole cruise ship full of other issues and was also emotionally abusive, so it's kind of hard for me to work out how much of that crappy relationship was due to mismatch in emotional labour and all the other things that were wrong. I had another girlfriend, much better relationship and we both put in a lot of emotional labour for each other that was totally appreciated, but had ask/guess problems (weirdly, since I am frequently more guess than ask but she was even more guess than me). And then there's that anxious/avoidant one I've already written about. In all of these different dynamics, emotional labour has affected how the relationship and issues play out. So yeah, there's other stuff that can be so tightly enmeshed with the emotional labour issue that it's hard to tease out what to change.
Having been single now for over three years and increasingly doubtful that this will ever change, I still oscillate between gee, it would be so nice to have someone to do nice things for me and I could do nice things for them and we could snuggle and maybe even have sex, crazy thought and NO NO MORE RELATIONSHIPS CAN'T RELY ON ANYONE ELSE TO LOOK AFTER ME AND I'M DONE WITH PUTTING IN FOR OTHER PEOPLE AND NOT GETTING IT BACK.
Feh. This thread is awesome and I am learning a lot and thinking a lot but I am also aware that it's accentuating my misandrist tendencies. Stupid men messing everything up, even for those of us who don't want 'em.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:30 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
For those of us who do emotional labour professionally, how do you deal with it? Maybe this is an Ask, but it seems like a semi-recurrent theme here so I thought I'd float it to see what people think.
Also, I didn't mean to make it sound like all lesbians are totally enlightened and never take each other's emotional labour for granted. That completely happens. I've posted other things on the blue about how living in a patriarchal world in which desire for women is constructed as masculine can shape the behaviour of women trying to express their desire for women. For example, some butch women who objectify femme women, treating them as commodities to be traded with other butches - if you don't want her, I'll have her kind of thing. (It's not just/always a butch/femme thing but that's one of the first examples that sprang to mind.) So yeah, women can definitely be just as entitled/oblivious to each other. As others have pointed out, it often goes along with privilege so white women with women of colour, able-bodied women with disabled women, etc.
My most masculine-presenting ex, who had tried living as a boy (her term), had a whole cruise ship full of other issues and was also emotionally abusive, so it's kind of hard for me to work out how much of that crappy relationship was due to mismatch in emotional labour and all the other things that were wrong. I had another girlfriend, much better relationship and we both put in a lot of emotional labour for each other that was totally appreciated, but had ask/guess problems (weirdly, since I am frequently more guess than ask but she was even more guess than me). And then there's that anxious/avoidant one I've already written about. In all of these different dynamics, emotional labour has affected how the relationship and issues play out. So yeah, there's other stuff that can be so tightly enmeshed with the emotional labour issue that it's hard to tease out what to change.
Having been single now for over three years and increasingly doubtful that this will ever change, I still oscillate between gee, it would be so nice to have someone to do nice things for me and I could do nice things for them and we could snuggle and maybe even have sex, crazy thought and NO NO MORE RELATIONSHIPS CAN'T RELY ON ANYONE ELSE TO LOOK AFTER ME AND I'M DONE WITH PUTTING IN FOR OTHER PEOPLE AND NOT GETTING IT BACK.
Feh. This thread is awesome and I am learning a lot and thinking a lot but I am also aware that it's accentuating my misandrist tendencies. Stupid men messing everything up, even for those of us who don't want 'em.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:30 PM on July 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
I want to thank everyone for sharing so many powerful and personal thoughts and stories. This is just mind blowing. I am incredibly hopeful that the vocabulary, language and framing of this dialogue will help me be a better partner and person. I don't know that reading this thread 2 years ago could have helped save the marriage, but it will totally help me a better friend and and father. The former Ms. Unioncat and I talked past each other and around this topic so many times, and there are many epiphanies about where I fell short, and also how I was just incapable of communicating about so much of this. So much sadness for the unwitting pain I caused, but I have words now, and totally looking forward to a new therapist next week. I've always had great vision, but this must be what it's like to get glasses for the first time. I owe the collective a big one and commit to put the work in to break the cycle.
posted by Unioncat at 7:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by Unioncat at 7:32 PM on July 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
I think there may be some misunderstanding that this thread exists in service of educating men. It does not.
I find myself saying this semi-regularly on the blue nowadays. Someone upthread said that this was a consciousness-raising session and while I'm too young to have lived through those, I remember reading about them. I'm so glad I finally found one to share and be shared with.
posted by immlass at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
I find myself saying this semi-regularly on the blue nowadays. Someone upthread said that this was a consciousness-raising session and while I'm too young to have lived through those, I remember reading about them. I'm so glad I finally found one to share and be shared with.
posted by immlass at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
From Athanassiel:
I can't find it now but years ago I read an article that in some ways seems like a no-brainer but was just an epiphany at the time, about how performing emotion work as part of your job when it isn't really what you feel (basically, faking it because the job requires you to) results in all kinds of stress, depression, etc.
I'm sure that's right. It's incredibly stressful. I'm not entirely faking it in the sense of having a telemarketing scam job bilking seniors out of their life savings - I'm not LYING to anyone - but there's definitely this sort of faux me that I put on that's always willing to cajole or pat-pat don't worry pat-pat sure I'll check in with you again tomorrow, oh no don't worry it's totally fine to take another week on that when I know that the expectation from my company is that these things just happen and anyone could make it happen why are you making it seem so hard? When your success is entirely dependent on getting other people to do things that aren't really comfortable for them or are new or that they're worried about putting their own reputation behind it's really hard to maintain that kind of equanimity all the time externally when the heat's coming down from inside the house.
posted by marylynn at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I can't find it now but years ago I read an article that in some ways seems like a no-brainer but was just an epiphany at the time, about how performing emotion work as part of your job when it isn't really what you feel (basically, faking it because the job requires you to) results in all kinds of stress, depression, etc.
I'm sure that's right. It's incredibly stressful. I'm not entirely faking it in the sense of having a telemarketing scam job bilking seniors out of their life savings - I'm not LYING to anyone - but there's definitely this sort of faux me that I put on that's always willing to cajole or pat-pat don't worry pat-pat sure I'll check in with you again tomorrow, oh no don't worry it's totally fine to take another week on that when I know that the expectation from my company is that these things just happen and anyone could make it happen why are you making it seem so hard? When your success is entirely dependent on getting other people to do things that aren't really comfortable for them or are new or that they're worried about putting their own reputation behind it's really hard to maintain that kind of equanimity all the time externally when the heat's coming down from inside the house.
posted by marylynn at 7:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
For those of us who do emotional labour professionally, how do you deal with it?
I hope this doesn't sound disingenuous but - have really good boundaries. Non-profits and start-ups, both industries I've spent a lot of my professional time in are really bad about both of these things. You believe in the cause (altruistic or money) and then are expected to deliver because of your faith/believe/love of that cause and to do anything less is disloyal. It is personally complicated for my because both of my parents were addicts so helping was the way to make everything better. Jobs, in the USian culture which I was raised in and am most familiar with, value you for what you can do so it definitely led to an addictive cycle of 'if I do all the things I will be valued' which goes right into emotional labor. It also encourages really poor boundaries because as long as I keep doing things, even outside regular business hours, then I can keep feeding the mental addiction of 'if I do things I will be respected and valued' which is true to a point and incredibly damaging. The ability and strength it takes to say no to something you were taught from a very young age, enforced by your gender, that saying yes and doing all the work, and then have it reinforced by work? Is toxic.
So for me it was boundaries. It's not perfect. I still check email after hours so I know what I'm walking in to the next day. Don't even ask me how much vacation time I have stored up. I also am honest with my friends - 'Hey X, I'm on a huge project deadline for the next three months. I will not be doing my part to keep up the friendship and that sucks but I want you to know its not you.' Which, yes I realize can be taking on a chunk of the emotional labor that is not mine but they (male and female) also share that back to me with their own deadlines. Reading back over that last bit I realized I am incredibly lucky with my friend-group.
One concrete thing I do around work and emotional labor is that I don't take meetings on Fridays unless it is an emergency. I have pre-blocked out my calendar. Now I read this advice and it was suggested as a productivity tool but for me it means I'm not burning my emotional energy spoons on project managing other people, I get to save them up and have them going into the weekend. I'm still doing email or other paperwork tasks but the thing that burns my emotional energy fast is managing team meetings, ymmv.
posted by ladyriffraff at 7:59 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
I hope this doesn't sound disingenuous but - have really good boundaries. Non-profits and start-ups, both industries I've spent a lot of my professional time in are really bad about both of these things. You believe in the cause (altruistic or money) and then are expected to deliver because of your faith/believe/love of that cause and to do anything less is disloyal. It is personally complicated for my because both of my parents were addicts so helping was the way to make everything better. Jobs, in the USian culture which I was raised in and am most familiar with, value you for what you can do so it definitely led to an addictive cycle of 'if I do all the things I will be valued' which goes right into emotional labor. It also encourages really poor boundaries because as long as I keep doing things, even outside regular business hours, then I can keep feeding the mental addiction of 'if I do things I will be respected and valued' which is true to a point and incredibly damaging. The ability and strength it takes to say no to something you were taught from a very young age, enforced by your gender, that saying yes and doing all the work, and then have it reinforced by work? Is toxic.
So for me it was boundaries. It's not perfect. I still check email after hours so I know what I'm walking in to the next day. Don't even ask me how much vacation time I have stored up. I also am honest with my friends - 'Hey X, I'm on a huge project deadline for the next three months. I will not be doing my part to keep up the friendship and that sucks but I want you to know its not you.' Which, yes I realize can be taking on a chunk of the emotional labor that is not mine but they (male and female) also share that back to me with their own deadlines. Reading back over that last bit I realized I am incredibly lucky with my friend-group.
One concrete thing I do around work and emotional labor is that I don't take meetings on Fridays unless it is an emergency. I have pre-blocked out my calendar. Now I read this advice and it was suggested as a productivity tool but for me it means I'm not burning my emotional energy spoons on project managing other people, I get to save them up and have them going into the weekend. I'm still doing email or other paperwork tasks but the thing that burns my emotional energy fast is managing team meetings, ymmv.
posted by ladyriffraff at 7:59 PM on July 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
For those of us who do emotional labour professionally, how do you deal with it?
I work as an academic advisor/counselor, which requires a whole lot of emotional work: empathic listening, complete attention to students' personal as well as academic problems, assessing each student's individual need at that moment for caretaking/handholding vs. tough love, patience with repeated refusal to listen to anything I'm saying, continuing to be endlessly present/warm/attentive in the face of wildly immature self-defeating behavior, and finding compassionate and supportive ways to talk with them about failure, family awfulness, relationship catastrophes, roommate grar, and listen, listen, listen.
I'm really good at it, and like it a lot; but what's weird is that in my personal life I'm very much more like all those widowers/divorced guys who are going to die premature unhappy deaths through complete inability to maintain social networks or stay connected to people.
What I think it's all about for me is the absolute necessity of boundaries. It would not only be terrifying to me personally, but also completely unprofessional, to not maintain clear, firm boundaries with my students; I help them as I can between 8 and 5, within the limits of my professional role, and when I go home I (almost) never think about them. They are never going to intrude on my private time or my personal life, and ultimately I can always say to them, "OK, you know what? I've done everything I can here, and I am DONE, it's up to you now," and no one will question it; in fact, I'll get respect for it from my colleagues.
This works in other settings ; I am great at making warm friendly conversation with the young woman with the baby in the grocery line, or listening patiently to the elderly guy on the bus who needs someone to talk to, or really any other kind of emotional-labor situation where I can rest assured that I am not going to see this person again or at least not be responsible for them in any permanent way.
But -- family? partners? Hoo boy, that's terrifying, I think largely because I've seen so many people (mostly women) over the decades, starting with my mother, who got into the kinds of emotionally-laborious relationships others have been describing here, where no boundaries were possible, and where the needs of others consumed their lives, in the ways that others have been describing here. (Virginia Woolf, in her journal: "Father's birthday. He would have been 96, 96, yes, today; and could have been 96, like other people one has known; but mercifully was not. His life would have entirely ended mine.") I decided long ago that no matter what, I wasn't doing that, and if it means dying alone and being gnawed on by my cats, so be it. But I still sometimes feel sad that I've never been able to find that balance point of autonomy and connection, a relationship that has intimacy without enmeshment.
posted by Kat Allison at 8:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
I work as an academic advisor/counselor, which requires a whole lot of emotional work: empathic listening, complete attention to students' personal as well as academic problems, assessing each student's individual need at that moment for caretaking/handholding vs. tough love, patience with repeated refusal to listen to anything I'm saying, continuing to be endlessly present/warm/attentive in the face of wildly immature self-defeating behavior, and finding compassionate and supportive ways to talk with them about failure, family awfulness, relationship catastrophes, roommate grar, and listen, listen, listen.
I'm really good at it, and like it a lot; but what's weird is that in my personal life I'm very much more like all those widowers/divorced guys who are going to die premature unhappy deaths through complete inability to maintain social networks or stay connected to people.
What I think it's all about for me is the absolute necessity of boundaries. It would not only be terrifying to me personally, but also completely unprofessional, to not maintain clear, firm boundaries with my students; I help them as I can between 8 and 5, within the limits of my professional role, and when I go home I (almost) never think about them. They are never going to intrude on my private time or my personal life, and ultimately I can always say to them, "OK, you know what? I've done everything I can here, and I am DONE, it's up to you now," and no one will question it; in fact, I'll get respect for it from my colleagues.
This works in other settings ; I am great at making warm friendly conversation with the young woman with the baby in the grocery line, or listening patiently to the elderly guy on the bus who needs someone to talk to, or really any other kind of emotional-labor situation where I can rest assured that I am not going to see this person again or at least not be responsible for them in any permanent way.
But -- family? partners? Hoo boy, that's terrifying, I think largely because I've seen so many people (mostly women) over the decades, starting with my mother, who got into the kinds of emotionally-laborious relationships others have been describing here, where no boundaries were possible, and where the needs of others consumed their lives, in the ways that others have been describing here. (Virginia Woolf, in her journal: "Father's birthday. He would have been 96, 96, yes, today; and could have been 96, like other people one has known; but mercifully was not. His life would have entirely ended mine.") I decided long ago that no matter what, I wasn't doing that, and if it means dying alone and being gnawed on by my cats, so be it. But I still sometimes feel sad that I've never been able to find that balance point of autonomy and connection, a relationship that has intimacy without enmeshment.
posted by Kat Allison at 8:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [27 favorites]
This is the best consciousness raising discussion I've ever seen on MetaFilter.
I'm happy to see people thinking through these issues aloud.
That's also (hard, life changing) work that has to be done.
It's emotional labor too, expanding political consciousness.
I find it very heartening to see. Much like some of the catalyst discussions in blogging years ago.
posted by geeklizzard at 9:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm happy to see people thinking through these issues aloud.
That's also (hard, life changing) work that has to be done.
It's emotional labor too, expanding political consciousness.
I find it very heartening to see. Much like some of the catalyst discussions in blogging years ago.
posted by geeklizzard at 9:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I just want to hug all of you. Internet feminist hug!!!
posted by geeklizzard at 9:14 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by geeklizzard at 9:14 PM on July 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
For those of us who do emotional labour professionally, how do you deal with it?
Therapist. As others have said, boundaries, and also self-care. The self-care part is vital, I think, in recognizing for myself the work that I have been doing. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking I "just" sat there and "just" talked to clients for a few hours, that's not "real work" (and I have occasional crises/anxiety attacks that tell me that). Having some model in my head telling me "You worked with clients, you therefore have to go for a hike/go to the gym/spend the night reading a book you like/hang out with your cats/get enough sleep/cook yourself healthy food/spend time with friends/some ideal combination of any of the above" helps me value my own work. Setting boundaries with clients helps them value my work. Both, I think, are vital.
Also I would like to volunteer for some of the non-vegetarian cooking and/or meal-planning on Crone Island, please. (Non-vegetarian only because lots of other people seem to have much more creative and good ideas for vegetarian food.) Also maybe if anyone wants a book club, I'd like to help organize that. And if anyone actually buys some land and sets this up, then I am seriously there.
posted by jaguar at 9:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Therapist. As others have said, boundaries, and also self-care. The self-care part is vital, I think, in recognizing for myself the work that I have been doing. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking I "just" sat there and "just" talked to clients for a few hours, that's not "real work" (and I have occasional crises/anxiety attacks that tell me that). Having some model in my head telling me "You worked with clients, you therefore have to go for a hike/go to the gym/spend the night reading a book you like/hang out with your cats/get enough sleep/cook yourself healthy food/spend time with friends/some ideal combination of any of the above" helps me value my own work. Setting boundaries with clients helps them value my work. Both, I think, are vital.
Also I would like to volunteer for some of the non-vegetarian cooking and/or meal-planning on Crone Island, please. (Non-vegetarian only because lots of other people seem to have much more creative and good ideas for vegetarian food.) Also maybe if anyone wants a book club, I'd like to help organize that. And if anyone actually buys some land and sets this up, then I am seriously there.
posted by jaguar at 9:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
As I was brushing my teeth, my husband approached me with his iPad out showing the Crone Island poster image: "Hey, have you seen this?"
"Yeah, it's great! Look, it's my lockscreen image. And hey, don't worry, there will be cruise ships docking at the other side of the island so the crones can visit with their friends and loved ones before heading back across the island. ...Have you gotten to the Coot Island part of the conversation?"
"What, it's still going?" he said.
"Ah... yeah, it's continuing and there's some really great discussion going on."
"Yeah, I'm done."
"..."
"I mean, I finished it as of when I texted you yesterday [12:30pm Pacific time] but I can't keep up with it."
"..."
Welp. Y'know, I was feeling some kind of team-solidarity obligation to not air dirty laundry or something, despite having a bunch of thoughts on this topic that have personal relevance. And as what he'd said sank in, I could almost physically feel that obligation drain away like water down a drain.
posted by Lexica at 10:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [61 favorites]
"Yeah, it's great! Look, it's my lockscreen image. And hey, don't worry, there will be cruise ships docking at the other side of the island so the crones can visit with their friends and loved ones before heading back across the island. ...Have you gotten to the Coot Island part of the conversation?"
"What, it's still going?" he said.
"Ah... yeah, it's continuing and there's some really great discussion going on."
"Yeah, I'm done."
"..."
"I mean, I finished it as of when I texted you yesterday [12:30pm Pacific time] but I can't keep up with it."
"..."
Welp. Y'know, I was feeling some kind of team-solidarity obligation to not air dirty laundry or something, despite having a bunch of thoughts on this topic that have personal relevance. And as what he'd said sank in, I could almost physically feel that obligation drain away like water down a drain.
posted by Lexica at 10:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [61 favorites]
I've been reading this thread along with everyone else the last week, and like everyone else it's been in the back of my mind thinking about everything - marriage, family, work, friendships. I'm lucky to have a husband who's really great about most of this stuff, and this thread has led me to a new appreciation of him -- and an examination of stuff I'm not doing, both in the marriage and in my friendships (so many friends that I should be doing better by! so many friends who are really doing way more than their share of the emotional labor!).
It also makes me think about why I left teaching -- I'm seeing that one part of it was discomfort over the emotional labor component. I couldn't square my image of the role with the psychological reality for me -- I couldn't realistically do the amount of emotional labor I felt I should do (in order to live up to my mental image of doing a good job in the role), but couldn't get comfortable with doing the lower, more realistic amount.
At any rate, very thought-provoking thread; thank you all.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:12 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
It also makes me think about why I left teaching -- I'm seeing that one part of it was discomfort over the emotional labor component. I couldn't square my image of the role with the psychological reality for me -- I couldn't realistically do the amount of emotional labor I felt I should do (in order to live up to my mental image of doing a good job in the role), but couldn't get comfortable with doing the lower, more realistic amount.
At any rate, very thought-provoking thread; thank you all.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:12 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
> but I can't keep up with it.
This thread has been at the top of my recent activity for days (because I haven't commented in pretty much anything else, mostly because I am on vacation and partly because I just want to keep reading and nodding along and favorting things here). It's glorious - and heartbreaking and encouraging and so interesting - to just keep reading. I'm looking at everything explicitly through this lens of emotional labor because of this thread. I'm on vacation but my partner is here for a conference, and this morning we went on a tour of a couple of places here that serve people who are homeless/marginally housed and who use drugs, and I was listening to the people who work there talk about the work they do and I was thinking about this work in terms of emotional labor and just... wow. Yeah. It's not a concept that was ever exactly foreign to me but I've also had a shift in perspective. Thank you all so much.
posted by rtha at 10:36 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
This thread has been at the top of my recent activity for days (because I haven't commented in pretty much anything else, mostly because I am on vacation and partly because I just want to keep reading and nodding along and favorting things here). It's glorious - and heartbreaking and encouraging and so interesting - to just keep reading. I'm looking at everything explicitly through this lens of emotional labor because of this thread. I'm on vacation but my partner is here for a conference, and this morning we went on a tour of a couple of places here that serve people who are homeless/marginally housed and who use drugs, and I was listening to the people who work there talk about the work they do and I was thinking about this work in terms of emotional labor and just... wow. Yeah. It's not a concept that was ever exactly foreign to me but I've also had a shift in perspective. Thank you all so much.
posted by rtha at 10:36 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
Crone Island logo... after the first few mentions, the image in my head for Crone Island is a lot of arms upraised, as dancing. Many hands on those arms are holding tacos or holding [drink of choice].
This is superimposed over a stylized map of mostly water with one irregularly shaped island in the middle.
(I'd love to make this image but I don't have the skill. If anyone else likes it at all, please feel free.)
...
I could have written LobsterMitten's first paragraph re: this thread, if I'd been able to phrase it that well. I've tried and then just deleted all the text because I didn't phrase it that well. So thanks, LobsterMitten :) And everyone who has shared and collectively made this a amazing discussion.
posted by galadriel at 10:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is superimposed over a stylized map of mostly water with one irregularly shaped island in the middle.
(I'd love to make this image but I don't have the skill. If anyone else likes it at all, please feel free.)
...
I could have written LobsterMitten's first paragraph re: this thread, if I'd been able to phrase it that well. I've tried and then just deleted all the text because I didn't phrase it that well. So thanks, LobsterMitten :) And everyone who has shared and collectively made this a amazing discussion.
posted by galadriel at 10:41 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
So I quit my job partly because of this discussion. I've been trying to quit this job for about three years now, but it's come to a head and being able to reframe this by counting in, thanks partly to a great therapist, all the emotional work and costs of my job (I have another job too) made it clear that I do not have 48 hours in a day. And so I quit. One major part has been telling about 150 critical people - and another 150 more to go in the organisation, one on one, that here is the change coming, and bracing myself for stuff, and I dealt with it by reading this thread in-between emails. And 85% of the replies I did get were hey, this sucks but we get it. And 10% were I'll step up then, and the other 5% I could look at and think huh, what a coot. Exiled to coot island where they can sit and moan into the wind.
Today we were discussing a new phone policy about staff needing to keep phones on during weekends so clients can contact them during a crisis, and I thought of this thread and went, nope, let's figure out an alternative that gives our staff boundaries for this emotional work they're doing while keeping clients safe, and we did figure it out, so everyone's happier.
Thanks y'all.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:05 AM on July 23, 2015 [103 favorites]
Today we were discussing a new phone policy about staff needing to keep phones on during weekends so clients can contact them during a crisis, and I thought of this thread and went, nope, let's figure out an alternative that gives our staff boundaries for this emotional work they're doing while keeping clients safe, and we did figure it out, so everyone's happier.
Thanks y'all.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:05 AM on July 23, 2015 [103 favorites]
Go, go, dorthyisunderwood! Congratulations!
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 2:20 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 2:20 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm 46 and single. I don't even miss it most of the time and I thought I was broken for that. Thank you all for telling me I'm not.
Can we bronze the thread?
posted by infini at 5:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
Can we bronze the thread?
posted by infini at 5:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
My application essay for Crone Island: I live on a small farm, and my husband works off-farm. Consequently, I handle probably 90 percent the work of cleaning the house, and whatever needs attention outside because I'm the Adult on Duty. That's everything from mowing to weeding to invasion of the snapping turtles to something is being born/something just died. (The kids are good with "put that snake back in the swamp" but there is a limit to their helpfulness.) I keep the gardens; I drove 50 T-posts for my tomatoes, and when I was done, returned the post pounder to its home by the tool caddy.
A few weeks ago, I cleaned the top of the barn, and showed my neighbor, Sgt. Shipshape, the new home for trailer hitches (he had not been able to find them downstairs). He had come over to borrow the post pounder, and asked my husband for it. My husband looked around the (incredibly messy) bottom of the barn and then asked me.
"It's by the tool caddy."
"I looked there, it isn't."
So I go look. And there it is, leaning against the tool caddy. And Sgt. Shipshape, burning both of us in one go, says to my husband, "Damn, son, you gotta have her clean the BOTTOM of the barn."
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:22 AM on July 23, 2015 [40 favorites]
A few weeks ago, I cleaned the top of the barn, and showed my neighbor, Sgt. Shipshape, the new home for trailer hitches (he had not been able to find them downstairs). He had come over to borrow the post pounder, and asked my husband for it. My husband looked around the (incredibly messy) bottom of the barn and then asked me.
"It's by the tool caddy."
"I looked there, it isn't."
So I go look. And there it is, leaning against the tool caddy. And Sgt. Shipshape, burning both of us in one go, says to my husband, "Damn, son, you gotta have her clean the BOTTOM of the barn."
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:22 AM on July 23, 2015 [40 favorites]
First of all, this thread is beyond amazing and so so eye-opening. I have names for things now! Thank you all!
And this...
women are biologically disinclined to have sex with their caretake-ees
..reminded me of an incident that becomes oh-so-clear in retrospect. As an undergrad I developed an insane crush on a grad student TA. Nothing happened during the semester but afterward he and I went out a few times. I was dying to sleep with him. Finally, finally, I brought him back to my dorm room, where he stretched out on the bed...
...rolled onto his belly, got comfy with a pillow, and said, "Tell me a story."
My desire vaporized at once. I stammered something about not having any stories to tell and sat down in my desk chair, watching him fall asleep.
In the moment I was so put off that it was as if he had slapped me.
Later on, though, from time to time, when I was lonely, I would think back and wonder if I should have told him a story, because he had been awfully cute.
Holy fuck, I now think. I wonder how many women went ahead and told a story.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [51 favorites]
And this...
women are biologically disinclined to have sex with their caretake-ees
..reminded me of an incident that becomes oh-so-clear in retrospect. As an undergrad I developed an insane crush on a grad student TA. Nothing happened during the semester but afterward he and I went out a few times. I was dying to sleep with him. Finally, finally, I brought him back to my dorm room, where he stretched out on the bed...
...rolled onto his belly, got comfy with a pillow, and said, "Tell me a story."
My desire vaporized at once. I stammered something about not having any stories to tell and sat down in my desk chair, watching him fall asleep.
In the moment I was so put off that it was as if he had slapped me.
Later on, though, from time to time, when I was lonely, I would think back and wonder if I should have told him a story, because he had been awfully cute.
Holy fuck, I now think. I wonder how many women went ahead and told a story.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [51 favorites]
I wonder how many women went ahead and told a story.
I did. Once. A LONG time ago. I started telling a story about a man and woman meeting and (lots of anticipatory flirting and teasing) and then the man couldn't get an erection and the woman, who ONLY WANTED TO HAVE SEX, told him to leave. Which he did.
One of my finest moments.
(But yeah, where is that "tell me a story" script coming from?)
posted by kinetic at 5:58 AM on July 23, 2015 [46 favorites]
I did. Once. A LONG time ago. I started telling a story about a man and woman meeting and (lots of anticipatory flirting and teasing) and then the man couldn't get an erection and the woman, who ONLY WANTED TO HAVE SEX, told him to leave. Which he did.
One of my finest moments.
(But yeah, where is that "tell me a story" script coming from?)
posted by kinetic at 5:58 AM on July 23, 2015 [46 favorites]
So I quit my job partly because of this discussion.
Congratulations! Yesterday I was wondering how many breakups/divorces would be precipitated by this thread, how many women will say, "I finally understand why I am so unhappy, and I'm not putting up with this shit anymore". GO FOR IT. (I wish I could.)<>
posted by lollymccatburglar at 7:35 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Congratulations! Yesterday I was wondering how many breakups/divorces would be precipitated by this thread, how many women will say, "I finally understand why I am so unhappy, and I'm not putting up with this shit anymore". GO FOR IT. (I wish I could.)<>
posted by lollymccatburglar at 7:35 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ha, I'm catching up on this thread and "I Want to Know What Love Is" just came on. If that's not an anthem of men wanting women to do their emotional labor for them, I don't know what is. ;]
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:41 AM on July 23, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:41 AM on July 23, 2015 [32 favorites]
It's everywhere fiercecupcake. Yesterday I was listening to Question of Lust by Depeche Mode:
Fragile/Like a baby in your arms/Be gentle with me/I'd never willingly/Do you harm
Apologies/Are all you seem to get from me
But just like a child/You make me smile/When you care for me
Ugh.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Fragile/Like a baby in your arms/Be gentle with me/I'd never willingly/Do you harm
Apologies/Are all you seem to get from me
But just like a child/You make me smile/When you care for me
Ugh.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Just a note to say that this thread is having a real impact on people in lots of different ways. For the past couple of years my wife has largely handled the grocery shopping and meal planning, largely because her job was less time consuming and she expressed a desire to do it -- cooking is calming/theraputic for her and she enjoys it. Then I started a new job a few months ago, but things continued as usual. Then, the other day, she mentioned in a conversation with her mother and I that though she still likes cooking, the meal planning and shopping has turned into a chore. I made a mental note of the change but didn't say anything. Then, after thinking about this thread, I shot her a quick email while I was at work offering to pick up the laboring oar when it comes to those chores. It's a blip on the radar, but it's a step in the right direction.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:54 AM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by craven_morhead at 7:54 AM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
But yeah, where is that "tell me a story" script coming from?
I'm not sure men have the same neuron-level aversion, to children or mothers. It is one of the things that baffles me the most - how can you want me to literally take on the tasks of a child's mother to you and still want me to touch your stuff? Why is that not repulsive? That Oedipus shit is some powerful stuff, apparently.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
I'm not sure men have the same neuron-level aversion, to children or mothers. It is one of the things that baffles me the most - how can you want me to literally take on the tasks of a child's mother to you and still want me to touch your stuff? Why is that not repulsive? That Oedipus shit is some powerful stuff, apparently.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
Comment #1095:
Receiving lingerie as a present and being expected to purr in delight, throw it on and prance about like a happy sex kitten, waiting for it to be torn off by Mr. I got you a great present which is really all about me!
This is not, and never was, a gift for me. This is a gift for you.
One of my best ex-BF's was very excited about Valentine's Day. Very excited. He called and texted and said I was going to be so happy with my present; he had been thinking about it for weeks, etc.
So VD comes and we're having dinner and he hands me a box.
A Victoria's Secret box. And I'm like, "Oh, fucking swell. Here's your present."
I open the box, and inside is a gigantic tote bag, stuffed with tissue paper.
I sigh, I go through the tissue paper, expecting to see thongs or bustiers or some other see-thru shit that sure maybe I like but c'mon, man.
There's nothing else in the tote bag.
He looked at my face and said, "You need a new tote bag for work, right? I got you a tote bag!"
It was best mind-fuck present I've ever received.
posted by kinetic at 8:04 AM on July 23, 2015 [122 favorites]
Receiving lingerie as a present and being expected to purr in delight, throw it on and prance about like a happy sex kitten, waiting for it to be torn off by Mr. I got you a great present which is really all about me!
This is not, and never was, a gift for me. This is a gift for you.
One of my best ex-BF's was very excited about Valentine's Day. Very excited. He called and texted and said I was going to be so happy with my present; he had been thinking about it for weeks, etc.
So VD comes and we're having dinner and he hands me a box.
A Victoria's Secret box. And I'm like, "Oh, fucking swell. Here's your present."
I open the box, and inside is a gigantic tote bag, stuffed with tissue paper.
I sigh, I go through the tissue paper, expecting to see thongs or bustiers or some other see-thru shit that sure maybe I like but c'mon, man.
There's nothing else in the tote bag.
He looked at my face and said, "You need a new tote bag for work, right? I got you a tote bag!"
It was best mind-fuck present I've ever received.
posted by kinetic at 8:04 AM on July 23, 2015 [122 favorites]
Being asked "what's for dinner" the second I walk in the door*
Oh my god, my husband used to ask me that. Until he came home one day and was like "Hey, what's for dinner," and I exploded at him, saying something like:
What must it be like to live in your WORLD OF WONDER, where everything is a MYSTERY! What food will magically appear before you, through no work of your own other than the power of your feeling hungry and existing at the same time? Will it be the dish you like best, its ingredients bought and thawed and cleaned and chopped and cut and assembled and prepared in a manner someone else thought about and planned hours, possibly days in advance? Will it be the other thing you sometimes like, but not as much? Will it be the thing from the other day, just reheated? Will it contain a balanced portion of all the protein, carbs, and vegetables you need? Who can know! Oh, what mysteries will unfold before your very eyes as you sit down to the table! What must it be like to live in this thrilling world of endless surprise and infinite possibility! Who can know the strange ways of the food gods? One can only hope they will be benevolent today, delivering you from your hunger and satisfying your childlike wonder and curiosity!
Anyway, I ordered pizza that night. And we're getting divorced.
posted by mothershock at 8:06 AM on July 23, 2015 [221 favorites]
Oh my god, my husband used to ask me that. Until he came home one day and was like "Hey, what's for dinner," and I exploded at him, saying something like:
What must it be like to live in your WORLD OF WONDER, where everything is a MYSTERY! What food will magically appear before you, through no work of your own other than the power of your feeling hungry and existing at the same time? Will it be the dish you like best, its ingredients bought and thawed and cleaned and chopped and cut and assembled and prepared in a manner someone else thought about and planned hours, possibly days in advance? Will it be the other thing you sometimes like, but not as much? Will it be the thing from the other day, just reheated? Will it contain a balanced portion of all the protein, carbs, and vegetables you need? Who can know! Oh, what mysteries will unfold before your very eyes as you sit down to the table! What must it be like to live in this thrilling world of endless surprise and infinite possibility! Who can know the strange ways of the food gods? One can only hope they will be benevolent today, delivering you from your hunger and satisfying your childlike wonder and curiosity!
Anyway, I ordered pizza that night. And we're getting divorced.
posted by mothershock at 8:06 AM on July 23, 2015 [221 favorites]
yep, "I Wanna Know What Love Is" and also, this morning when I was staggering up the road to the workplace I was singing to myself, "How will I know! If he really loves me! I say a prayer! With! Ev-er-ee heartbeat! How will I kno-o-oooow!" (because I have no idea how lyrics are supposed to work and just sing whatever ones might have been part of the song I'm thinking of plus seem like fun to sing at the time) But that song did seem particularly apropos because how will you know? You fuggin won't. And then I was thinking about Mister Rogers and how he weighed himself every day to make sure he was still 143 pounds so that everywhere he went everyone he met his very corpus would tell them all, "I love you," and wouldn't it be excellent if not half the people in the world but all the people in the world could grow up being coached to be more like Mister Rogers. Mister Rogers wouldn't be stuck on any Coot Island. He also wouldn't be hogging the margaritas or the guacamole on Crone Island because Mister Rogers maintained a sensible weight.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:10 AM on July 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 8:10 AM on July 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
In the past year or so I have come to appreciate the role my mom played in shaping my feminism. This thread has really opened my eyes to new ways she did that.
Now, she unquestioningly filled the "housewife" role in the home. She cleaned, she cooked, she did the bulk of the childcare, and her career aspirations always came second to my dad's. And she did the bulk of emotional labor, in terms of scheduling activities, organizing parties, sending out Christmas and thank you cards, pressuring me and my brothers to do so when we got birthday presents, purchasing presents, all of that.
But I realize now how much of that attitude she didn't pass on to me. I don't think it was conscious, at least not from my discussions with her. As a kid I just assumed I was being rebellious and enlightened, as opposed to her old-fashioned views. Surely she wanted me to do all those things, but I wasn't going to because I'm my own woman!
Yet in retrospect, she never really tried to get me to do any of that, any more than she tried with my brothers. She was relentlessly focused on my academic performance, my career goals, and doing something with my brain. It was to the exclusion of everything else and her focus was of a narrowness and intensity that brought its own serious issues. But it sent a clear message that my priorities should not be in home. She never called me in to help do dishes after dinner, at least no more than my brothers. I was never pushed to go to any "women's corners" during family gatherings. I just entered my thirties, and the only time I've had a discussion with either of my parents about my prospects for marriage or kids was when I told them I was thinking of getting my tubes tied. My dad kind of stumbled over that, but without missing a beat my mom said "Well, it's important you focus on graduate school and your career."
I've suspected for years now that the pressure she put on me was likely an unconscious attempt to make sure I built a different life path for myself than the one she felt she had to satisfy. Reading through this thread makes me sure of it. I figured out a while ago that my hopelessness at makeup, clothing, cooking, and "women's jobs" is greatly due to my mom simply not stressing that I do any of those things (heck, she didn't allow me to use the laundry machine until I was in my late teens).
Now, I've always been similarly hopeless as the emotional labor discussed here: while I do love helping people and will jump at the opportunity to do so if I think of it, I'm hardly systematic. I rely on Facebook to remember birthdays, I've never organized a party (indeed, the prospect feels completely overwhelming), I am crap at staying in contact with friends, and while I keep intending to send out Christmas cards I've never gotten my shit together enough to do so. I assumed this was a product of me being scatterbrained and just naturally being bad at this sort of thing. But it's not because I'm just naturally bad at it, is it? It's because Mom never taught me it was important. I didn't start thinking about any of those things as something I should do until I left the house and saw my other adult friends doing them. And even then I think of my failure to do so as a product of Bad Adulting rather than a personal feminine failure--and I sure as hell have never felt guilty about not taking this stuff over from my boyfriends. (obviously I'm still going to work on getting better at emotional labor though, because as has been emphasized in this thread it is what responsible adults do to maintain relationships)
I don't mean to drop this comment to brag. I say it because this is a real revelation. Like I said, I grew up thinking of my mom as a square, conservative, stay-at-home-mom (literally the worst thing you could be to my teenage self). I grew up hating her because there were huge aspects of her parenting style and focus that really messed me up. This is the first time I appreciated the power of what she didn't do: the pressures to adhere to a certain definition of femininity I never felt, expectations of children and family never applied, emotional and social caretaking I never took on as my job.
Anyway, I'm gonna go call her and tell her I love her. Thanks, Metafilter!
posted by Anonymous at 8:24 AM on July 23, 2015
Now, she unquestioningly filled the "housewife" role in the home. She cleaned, she cooked, she did the bulk of the childcare, and her career aspirations always came second to my dad's. And she did the bulk of emotional labor, in terms of scheduling activities, organizing parties, sending out Christmas and thank you cards, pressuring me and my brothers to do so when we got birthday presents, purchasing presents, all of that.
But I realize now how much of that attitude she didn't pass on to me. I don't think it was conscious, at least not from my discussions with her. As a kid I just assumed I was being rebellious and enlightened, as opposed to her old-fashioned views. Surely she wanted me to do all those things, but I wasn't going to because I'm my own woman!
Yet in retrospect, she never really tried to get me to do any of that, any more than she tried with my brothers. She was relentlessly focused on my academic performance, my career goals, and doing something with my brain. It was to the exclusion of everything else and her focus was of a narrowness and intensity that brought its own serious issues. But it sent a clear message that my priorities should not be in home. She never called me in to help do dishes after dinner, at least no more than my brothers. I was never pushed to go to any "women's corners" during family gatherings. I just entered my thirties, and the only time I've had a discussion with either of my parents about my prospects for marriage or kids was when I told them I was thinking of getting my tubes tied. My dad kind of stumbled over that, but without missing a beat my mom said "Well, it's important you focus on graduate school and your career."
I've suspected for years now that the pressure she put on me was likely an unconscious attempt to make sure I built a different life path for myself than the one she felt she had to satisfy. Reading through this thread makes me sure of it. I figured out a while ago that my hopelessness at makeup, clothing, cooking, and "women's jobs" is greatly due to my mom simply not stressing that I do any of those things (heck, she didn't allow me to use the laundry machine until I was in my late teens).
Now, I've always been similarly hopeless as the emotional labor discussed here: while I do love helping people and will jump at the opportunity to do so if I think of it, I'm hardly systematic. I rely on Facebook to remember birthdays, I've never organized a party (indeed, the prospect feels completely overwhelming), I am crap at staying in contact with friends, and while I keep intending to send out Christmas cards I've never gotten my shit together enough to do so. I assumed this was a product of me being scatterbrained and just naturally being bad at this sort of thing. But it's not because I'm just naturally bad at it, is it? It's because Mom never taught me it was important. I didn't start thinking about any of those things as something I should do until I left the house and saw my other adult friends doing them. And even then I think of my failure to do so as a product of Bad Adulting rather than a personal feminine failure--and I sure as hell have never felt guilty about not taking this stuff over from my boyfriends. (obviously I'm still going to work on getting better at emotional labor though, because as has been emphasized in this thread it is what responsible adults do to maintain relationships)
I don't mean to drop this comment to brag. I say it because this is a real revelation. Like I said, I grew up thinking of my mom as a square, conservative, stay-at-home-mom (literally the worst thing you could be to my teenage self). I grew up hating her because there were huge aspects of her parenting style and focus that really messed me up. This is the first time I appreciated the power of what she didn't do: the pressures to adhere to a certain definition of femininity I never felt, expectations of children and family never applied, emotional and social caretaking I never took on as my job.
Anyway, I'm gonna go call her and tell her I love her. Thanks, Metafilter!
posted by Anonymous at 8:24 AM on July 23, 2015
wouldn't it be excellent if not half the people in the world but all the people in the world could grow up being coached to be more like Mister Rogers. Mister Rogers wouldn't be stuck on any Coot Island.
When a young man on AskMe said something about his loneliness being based on the fact that women prefer bad boys to Mister Rogers "nice guys," I may have gone a little overboard in explaining his WRONG WRONGNESS and detailing the many ways in which Mister Rogers is an ideal potential romantic partner and, more importantly, a dear human being whose self-worth is not based on partnership status.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:26 AM on July 23, 2015 [41 favorites]
When a young man on AskMe said something about his loneliness being based on the fact that women prefer bad boys to Mister Rogers "nice guys," I may have gone a little overboard in explaining his WRONG WRONGNESS and detailing the many ways in which Mister Rogers is an ideal potential romantic partner and, more importantly, a dear human being whose self-worth is not based on partnership status.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:26 AM on July 23, 2015 [41 favorites]
As a sort of counterpoint to the people who are concerned about women giving up on men in romantic relationships, this thread has deepened my appreciation of my partner who appears to be emotional labor literate.
He is a mostly stay-at-home dad, and he is chiefly responsible for child care arrangements when he does have work outside of the home. At most, I might have to pick our daughter up from daycare if he can't get there in time. He does the dishes. He changes the cat litter. He does the yard work. He took complete responsibility for every aspect of our recent car repairs, from ordering the parts, taking it to the mechanic, arranging a loaner car, and getting the loaner car back to its home. He even files the baby's nails, because the sound of a nail file gives me the howling fantods (literally cannot be in the same room).
He arranges his own social life. He has his own friends, and is capable of making new ones. He gets along with my friends. He insists that I go out if I've been obsessing too much over work, school, and the rest. He's taken pets to the vet when needed, even though he hates that task the most because he feels that vets are the most judgmental people in the world. He keeps in touch with his own family - just this week, he took our daughter to visit with his aunt and cousin. He has his own hobbies, doesn't insist that I join him for racquetball or whatever.
No one is perfect, of course, and he has outsourced much of his memory to me. I am the Knower of Things, which irks me, especially when it interrupts thoughts I'm more interested in. He has no ability to look for things. He has a tendency of following up my honest responses of 'I don't know' with slightly reworded versions of the same question, which I still don't know the answer to. When he is in an obvious bad mood, I have to walk him through the 'Did you eat? Are you in pain? Did you take anything for it?' checklist to get him back on track, rather than him doing that work for himself. He never puts toilet paper on the roll, or cleans the baby's toys out of the tub after bathtime. He almost never googles the thing first, preferring to ask me.
But I too am imperfect, and the paragraphs above outline the number of areas where I am completely tuned out and don't know the score. I feel that his strengths buttress my weaknesses and vice versa, and I am comfortable with our distribution of emotional labor at the moment.
Now, if he and I were to part ways, I would either return to dating women or be single for a long time. He and I have done a lot of work together to make our relationship work for us, and I frankly have little-to-no interest in doing that again.
posted by palindromic at 8:40 AM on July 23, 2015 [29 favorites]
He is a mostly stay-at-home dad, and he is chiefly responsible for child care arrangements when he does have work outside of the home. At most, I might have to pick our daughter up from daycare if he can't get there in time. He does the dishes. He changes the cat litter. He does the yard work. He took complete responsibility for every aspect of our recent car repairs, from ordering the parts, taking it to the mechanic, arranging a loaner car, and getting the loaner car back to its home. He even files the baby's nails, because the sound of a nail file gives me the howling fantods (literally cannot be in the same room).
He arranges his own social life. He has his own friends, and is capable of making new ones. He gets along with my friends. He insists that I go out if I've been obsessing too much over work, school, and the rest. He's taken pets to the vet when needed, even though he hates that task the most because he feels that vets are the most judgmental people in the world. He keeps in touch with his own family - just this week, he took our daughter to visit with his aunt and cousin. He has his own hobbies, doesn't insist that I join him for racquetball or whatever.
No one is perfect, of course, and he has outsourced much of his memory to me. I am the Knower of Things, which irks me, especially when it interrupts thoughts I'm more interested in. He has no ability to look for things. He has a tendency of following up my honest responses of 'I don't know' with slightly reworded versions of the same question, which I still don't know the answer to. When he is in an obvious bad mood, I have to walk him through the 'Did you eat? Are you in pain? Did you take anything for it?' checklist to get him back on track, rather than him doing that work for himself. He never puts toilet paper on the roll, or cleans the baby's toys out of the tub after bathtime. He almost never googles the thing first, preferring to ask me.
But I too am imperfect, and the paragraphs above outline the number of areas where I am completely tuned out and don't know the score. I feel that his strengths buttress my weaknesses and vice versa, and I am comfortable with our distribution of emotional labor at the moment.
Now, if he and I were to part ways, I would either return to dating women or be single for a long time. He and I have done a lot of work together to make our relationship work for us, and I frankly have little-to-no interest in doing that again.
posted by palindromic at 8:40 AM on July 23, 2015 [29 favorites]
Receiving lingerie as a present and being expected to purr in delight, throw it on and prance about like a happy sex kitten, waiting for it to be torn off by Mr. I got you a great present which is really all about me!
the flipside of this is the time i decided to buy myself some super hot awesome lingerie for both our enjoyments but when i got home my boyfriend was tipsy and overexcited because Juve had just won and he snatched the bag from my hands and wore the corset top on his head so the boob cups looked like goggles and made airplane noises while running around the flat.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:55 AM on July 23, 2015 [80 favorites]
the flipside of this is the time i decided to buy myself some super hot awesome lingerie for both our enjoyments but when i got home my boyfriend was tipsy and overexcited because Juve had just won and he snatched the bag from my hands and wore the corset top on his head so the boob cups looked like goggles and made airplane noises while running around the flat.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:55 AM on July 23, 2015 [80 favorites]
That's about where I am, palindromic. This particular guy, for a variety of reasons both complicated and simple, I have no intention of parting ways from. And I see and appreciate all the ways he has learned over the years, both from me and through generally growing up as a person, to do more of the emotional labor in a variety of realms and to appreciate the work I do. I love him and we have a rich and deep history and shared language over 15 years as partners and I'm not going anywhere. I look forward to growing old and cranky with him and finding new ways to help and support each other.
But holy fuck, am I not interested in starting from scratch with anyone else, probably ever. If we go our separate ways I kind of think I will have zero interest in ever dating again, but if I did do so after some very long stretch of singlehood, I am pretty sure I would stick to women. For, again, a variety of reasons both complicated and simple. I feel pretty glad to be where I am on the Kinsey scale and have that option. (Not that the Kinsey scale has ever made any sense to me. I need some kind of 3D sexual orientation chart with several different axes and maybe like some glitter, to map out my attractions.)
posted by Stacey at 9:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]
But holy fuck, am I not interested in starting from scratch with anyone else, probably ever. If we go our separate ways I kind of think I will have zero interest in ever dating again, but if I did do so after some very long stretch of singlehood, I am pretty sure I would stick to women. For, again, a variety of reasons both complicated and simple. I feel pretty glad to be where I am on the Kinsey scale and have that option. (Not that the Kinsey scale has ever made any sense to me. I need some kind of 3D sexual orientation chart with several different axes and maybe like some glitter, to map out my attractions.)
posted by Stacey at 9:00 AM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]
This thread made me realize that I have been unconsciously being stubborn about doing clean-up because it always bugged me that all the guys got to sit a do cool stuff.
Yes, this is exactly why I get pissed off when I clean up after a family meal. (Right now for various reasons I only have female cousins around most of the time, though.)
I have seen my father improve at this consistently over the past 25 years (he's still better at some parts than others) and it's been interesting to watch and interesting to have a name for.
posted by jeather at 9:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, this is exactly why I get pissed off when I clean up after a family meal. (Right now for various reasons I only have female cousins around most of the time, though.)
I have seen my father improve at this consistently over the past 25 years (he's still better at some parts than others) and it's been interesting to watch and interesting to have a name for.
posted by jeather at 9:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
poffin boffin that still sounds like enjoyments for everyone involved tbh
posted by burgerrr at 9:12 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 9:12 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Here's a musical palate-cleanser after being reminded of "I Want to Know What Love Is" (ugh) — The Beautiful South – "A Little Time".
posted by Lexica at 9:36 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 9:36 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
And then I was thinking about Mister Rogers and how he weighed himself every day to make sure he was still 143 pounds so that everywhere he went everyone he met his very corpus would tell them all, "I love you," and wouldn't it be excellent if not half the people in the world but all the people in the world could grow up being coached to be more like Mister Rogers.
TBH I'm not comfortable with the idea of obsessive weight monitoring being equated with emotional generosity, but maybe I'm missing something?
posted by babelfish at 9:39 AM on July 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
TBH I'm not comfortable with the idea of obsessive weight monitoring being equated with emotional generosity, but maybe I'm missing something?
posted by babelfish at 9:39 AM on July 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
This thread made me realize that I have been unconsciously being stubborn about doing clean-up because it always bugged me that all the guys got to sit a do cool stuff.
Many years ago, I had a friend (whom, sadly, I've since lost touch with) who got fed up with Thanksgiving because every single year, the men would repair to the living room to watch TV and chat or what have you while the women remained in the kitchen to do clean up. One year she had just had it and she announced that she was planning to skip Thanksgiving unless the men agreed in advance that they would remain in the kitchen to help clean up. Everyone basically laughed in her face, and sure enough, she went away by herself for Thanksgiving that year and had a lovely time. (I don't quite recall whether she eventually went back; I vaguely recall that everyone sheepishly agreed that the men would help from then on, but that might be wishful thinking on my part).
posted by holborne at 9:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
Many years ago, I had a friend (whom, sadly, I've since lost touch with) who got fed up with Thanksgiving because every single year, the men would repair to the living room to watch TV and chat or what have you while the women remained in the kitchen to do clean up. One year she had just had it and she announced that she was planning to skip Thanksgiving unless the men agreed in advance that they would remain in the kitchen to help clean up. Everyone basically laughed in her face, and sure enough, she went away by herself for Thanksgiving that year and had a lovely time. (I don't quite recall whether she eventually went back; I vaguely recall that everyone sheepishly agreed that the men would help from then on, but that might be wishful thinking on my part).
posted by holborne at 9:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
babelfish, it's an allusion to an anecdote in this Esquire profile of Fred Rogers.
posted by GrammarMoses at 9:54 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by GrammarMoses at 9:54 AM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I never want this thread to end!!!!! I love you all!
posted by absences at 10:02 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by absences at 10:02 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Is there a name for the phenomenon where you believe a person would benefit hugely by doing something (say, reading this thread) but you can't force someone to do that something for precisely the reason that they need to do that thing?
posted by norm at 10:07 AM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by norm at 10:07 AM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
You can lead a horse to water, but if the horse has hydrophobia then you just both end up more thirsty?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:09 AM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:09 AM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
For those of us who do emotional labour professionally, how do you deal with it? Maybe this is an Ask, but it seems like a semi-recurrent theme here so I thought I'd float it to see what people think.
My entire working life has been about emotional labor -- call center jobs, admin jobs, currently starting a move into project management which a friend of mine (former admin, now a PM) describes as being Captain Admin. It's still my job to organize everything, handhold everybody through every teeny tiny step of a project, fill out all the forms and make sure Bill at XQZ is CC'ed on every email that we send regarding Issue Y because if he's not he will literally throw a tantrum so I need to make sure he doesn't feel slighted, and on and on and on. It's just more what they call "mission-critical" tasks that I do now, so it sounds important when I describe it to other people. It's just being the mom to a smaller group with less obvious grunt EL work than an actual admin role.
When I was a group admin a few years ago supporting a software engineering team of 265 people, guesstimating 75% men, my official job description was to manage the team's headcount, budget, office space, physical assets (computers, etc), order supplies, set up offices for new hires and make sure they got their welcome email, maintain the team email aliases, set up morale events, et cetera. The unspoken job description was to be the Big Mommy Comfort Dispenser: always be friendly, approachable, and happy to see everyone entering my office to pick up a snack bag of chips or a handful of candy (and always complain that there wasn't enough variety or their favorite was already gone or this is what you had the last time I was here twenty minutes ago or when are you guys going to start stocking gum or I want a healthy snack but all you have is these cookies that I will eat anyway while grumbling about how I didn't get what I wanted), happy to see everyone appearing in my office to ask where the fresh AA batteries are (why, in the hallway in the rechargers, under the big bright bold signs that say NEED BATTERIES? LOOK DOWN! that we made so that people who can see snacks clearly but not batteries would maybe figure it out) or where we keep the XYZ cables (in the clearly marked bin that you're standing directly in front of!) or a hundred other little things, all day, every day. Accommodate every need without pointing out that there are self-service tools available to complete the most basic tasks, without pointing out the clear labels and signs that would not be out of place in a primary grade classroom literally pointing to the exact object being requested. Run a series of informal mixers open to the entire 1200 member organization, devote the man-hours of the entire admin staff for three hours one day a month to set up the event and staff the event, and then watch everyone roll in, grab as many snacks as will fit in the pockets of their cargo shorts and hoodies to stash for later eating, jam some food and beer into their mouths while griping about the selection of both and the music being played and the existence of the event at all because it's not quite fancy enough to feel special, clean up the piles of trash left everywhere after the event because only some of these highly educated people understand how garbage cans work, and return to your desk to find a whiny email from someone who came by looking for batteries, couldn't see the big sign pointing to where they were, and was really annoyed that you weren't there to do your job.
By the time I left that job, I was averaging about 15,000 steps a day just during my work hours from running back and forth between the four buildings that housed members of our org, taking care of people's needs. I was waking up at 3am in a cold sweat worrying about whatever balls I'd dropped the previous day, and how much trouble I'd be in for doing something like only ordering ten pizzas and a whole bunch of salad and breadsticks and cookies for a lunch scrum because 40 people RSVP'd but 53 people showed up and some people only got a couple of slices and not the pizza they liked the best. (Answer: a surprisingly large amount of trouble! But overestimating food needs would also get you in trouble because that way you're not managing your budget very well and why are you ordering more food than what your RSVP count calls for anyway?) I was so worn out from taking care of everyone at work that when I got home, I just wanted to be left alone with a bong and my thoughts. My boyfriend at the time, also employed in this organization, didn't really want to listen to me vent about my work stress because while I'm stressed out by people just needing me to do something minor for them he's got actual problems to solve, and besides, I didn't guess correctly about what he wanted for dinner so he's going to go sulk in the shower until the hot water runs out and then just lay around being kind of a dick for the rest of the evening.
I ended up dumping that boyfriend and quitting that job, but not before I started losing hair from the stress of work and the stress of feeling so alone in my relationship and spending my off-hours laying on my couch eating Cheez-Its and binge-watching Hoarders because I didn't have the emotional or physical energy to address my own needs any better than that. It's been about three years since then, I've gone back to school to get new skills and a shiny degree so that I don't ever have to take a job that has me being Big Mommy again, I'm learning to push back on certain things in my new role at work when they really aren't my responsibility, and after going through one more very terrible romantic situation I am flat out done with dudes that don't have any emotional labor skills and who refuse to even try to think beyond the end of their own dick let alone concern themselves with their partner's needs. I'm still relearning how to do emotional labor in friendships with the right balance (not taking too much on for my own comfort, but not shirking or taking advantage of emotionally generous friends, and so on). But it's hard. I still feel a lot of guilt around not being Big Mommy.
Good god I had a lot to say about that.
posted by palomar at 10:15 AM on July 23, 2015 [61 favorites]
My entire working life has been about emotional labor -- call center jobs, admin jobs, currently starting a move into project management which a friend of mine (former admin, now a PM) describes as being Captain Admin. It's still my job to organize everything, handhold everybody through every teeny tiny step of a project, fill out all the forms and make sure Bill at XQZ is CC'ed on every email that we send regarding Issue Y because if he's not he will literally throw a tantrum so I need to make sure he doesn't feel slighted, and on and on and on. It's just more what they call "mission-critical" tasks that I do now, so it sounds important when I describe it to other people. It's just being the mom to a smaller group with less obvious grunt EL work than an actual admin role.
When I was a group admin a few years ago supporting a software engineering team of 265 people, guesstimating 75% men, my official job description was to manage the team's headcount, budget, office space, physical assets (computers, etc), order supplies, set up offices for new hires and make sure they got their welcome email, maintain the team email aliases, set up morale events, et cetera. The unspoken job description was to be the Big Mommy Comfort Dispenser: always be friendly, approachable, and happy to see everyone entering my office to pick up a snack bag of chips or a handful of candy (and always complain that there wasn't enough variety or their favorite was already gone or this is what you had the last time I was here twenty minutes ago or when are you guys going to start stocking gum or I want a healthy snack but all you have is these cookies that I will eat anyway while grumbling about how I didn't get what I wanted), happy to see everyone appearing in my office to ask where the fresh AA batteries are (why, in the hallway in the rechargers, under the big bright bold signs that say NEED BATTERIES? LOOK DOWN! that we made so that people who can see snacks clearly but not batteries would maybe figure it out) or where we keep the XYZ cables (in the clearly marked bin that you're standing directly in front of!) or a hundred other little things, all day, every day. Accommodate every need without pointing out that there are self-service tools available to complete the most basic tasks, without pointing out the clear labels and signs that would not be out of place in a primary grade classroom literally pointing to the exact object being requested. Run a series of informal mixers open to the entire 1200 member organization, devote the man-hours of the entire admin staff for three hours one day a month to set up the event and staff the event, and then watch everyone roll in, grab as many snacks as will fit in the pockets of their cargo shorts and hoodies to stash for later eating, jam some food and beer into their mouths while griping about the selection of both and the music being played and the existence of the event at all because it's not quite fancy enough to feel special, clean up the piles of trash left everywhere after the event because only some of these highly educated people understand how garbage cans work, and return to your desk to find a whiny email from someone who came by looking for batteries, couldn't see the big sign pointing to where they were, and was really annoyed that you weren't there to do your job.
By the time I left that job, I was averaging about 15,000 steps a day just during my work hours from running back and forth between the four buildings that housed members of our org, taking care of people's needs. I was waking up at 3am in a cold sweat worrying about whatever balls I'd dropped the previous day, and how much trouble I'd be in for doing something like only ordering ten pizzas and a whole bunch of salad and breadsticks and cookies for a lunch scrum because 40 people RSVP'd but 53 people showed up and some people only got a couple of slices and not the pizza they liked the best. (Answer: a surprisingly large amount of trouble! But overestimating food needs would also get you in trouble because that way you're not managing your budget very well and why are you ordering more food than what your RSVP count calls for anyway?) I was so worn out from taking care of everyone at work that when I got home, I just wanted to be left alone with a bong and my thoughts. My boyfriend at the time, also employed in this organization, didn't really want to listen to me vent about my work stress because while I'm stressed out by people just needing me to do something minor for them he's got actual problems to solve, and besides, I didn't guess correctly about what he wanted for dinner so he's going to go sulk in the shower until the hot water runs out and then just lay around being kind of a dick for the rest of the evening.
I ended up dumping that boyfriend and quitting that job, but not before I started losing hair from the stress of work and the stress of feeling so alone in my relationship and spending my off-hours laying on my couch eating Cheez-Its and binge-watching Hoarders because I didn't have the emotional or physical energy to address my own needs any better than that. It's been about three years since then, I've gone back to school to get new skills and a shiny degree so that I don't ever have to take a job that has me being Big Mommy again, I'm learning to push back on certain things in my new role at work when they really aren't my responsibility, and after going through one more very terrible romantic situation I am flat out done with dudes that don't have any emotional labor skills and who refuse to even try to think beyond the end of their own dick let alone concern themselves with their partner's needs. I'm still relearning how to do emotional labor in friendships with the right balance (not taking too much on for my own comfort, but not shirking or taking advantage of emotionally generous friends, and so on). But it's hard. I still feel a lot of guilt around not being Big Mommy.
Good god I had a lot to say about that.
posted by palomar at 10:15 AM on July 23, 2015 [61 favorites]
it seemed fine at first, until next time we were fooling around he suddenly tried doing anal stuff. Like, "secretly," as if I wouldn't notice.
Does every guy do this? Seriously, I have had to have several Talks With Men - back when I dated them - about how, you know, not only do I have, like, actual nerve endings so I can tell what you're doing, but it really, really, really Does Not Work Like That. It reminds me, now that I think about it, of this depressing Salon story from last week where the guy pressures the women into anal sex with virtually no prep of any kind and no condom and then gets disgusted and breaks up with her when the...er...physical consequences of that become apparent.
I mean, one of my most self-actualized friends who was in her mid thirties and dating another grown adult told me about this whole "I'm going to attempt to have anal sex with you without asking first on a stick-it-in-now basis why are you telling me no" situation.
Gee, it's like their entire education comes from porn, huh.
posted by Frowner at 10:37 AM on July 23, 2015 [32 favorites]
Does every guy do this? Seriously, I have had to have several Talks With Men - back when I dated them - about how, you know, not only do I have, like, actual nerve endings so I can tell what you're doing, but it really, really, really Does Not Work Like That. It reminds me, now that I think about it, of this depressing Salon story from last week where the guy pressures the women into anal sex with virtually no prep of any kind and no condom and then gets disgusted and breaks up with her when the...er...physical consequences of that become apparent.
I mean, one of my most self-actualized friends who was in her mid thirties and dating another grown adult told me about this whole "I'm going to attempt to have anal sex with you without asking first on a stick-it-in-now basis why are you telling me no" situation.
Gee, it's like their entire education comes from porn, huh.
posted by Frowner at 10:37 AM on July 23, 2015 [32 favorites]
Hope this isn't too much of a derail, but I'm going through the thread and ActionPopulated's comment about nursing reminded me of this essay from The New Inquiry:
Who Cares?
At an interview for a mental health nursing program, I was asked what I would do if a patient wet themselves at the end of my shift. In terms of my experiences of nursing, the question made no sense: In reality, the last half hour of a shift is spent handing over patients to new staff coming on duty. It would be their responsibility to clean my patient. But at interview, I said what I knew I was supposed to say: that I would clean the patient myself, regardless of when my shift ended. Wannabe nurses must demonstrate their compassion. And compassion, we are taught, means cleaning shit for free.
posted by oh.ghoulin at 10:38 AM on July 23, 2015 [27 favorites]
Who Cares?
At an interview for a mental health nursing program, I was asked what I would do if a patient wet themselves at the end of my shift. In terms of my experiences of nursing, the question made no sense: In reality, the last half hour of a shift is spent handing over patients to new staff coming on duty. It would be their responsibility to clean my patient. But at interview, I said what I knew I was supposed to say: that I would clean the patient myself, regardless of when my shift ended. Wannabe nurses must demonstrate their compassion. And compassion, we are taught, means cleaning shit for free.
posted by oh.ghoulin at 10:38 AM on July 23, 2015 [27 favorites]
I have read this whole thread & it made me in turns frustrated, angry, aware, and joyful. (The fact that someone dismissed it as a "venting session" made me roll my eyes so hard that I'll need to use the excellent healthcare benefits on Crone Island.)
It validates my feeling at being a happy divorcee. I work. I do my hobbies. I vacation alone (whee!) or with a girl friend or group of girlfriends (also whee!). We have a BLAST and we relax and drink cocktails and do as we please. It's awesome. And some people in my family worry I might be lonely.
As if!
posted by pointystick at 10:40 AM on July 23, 2015 [21 favorites]
It validates my feeling at being a happy divorcee. I work. I do my hobbies. I vacation alone (whee!) or with a girl friend or group of girlfriends (also whee!). We have a BLAST and we relax and drink cocktails and do as we please. It's awesome. And some people in my family worry I might be lonely.
As if!
posted by pointystick at 10:40 AM on July 23, 2015 [21 favorites]
Yet another reason for me to be way proud of my daddy - my aunt always hosted the family Thanksgivings and my own family would stay overnight at their house, and on more than a few occasions my dad would offer to take over all the dishwashing duties after so my aunt could get a break. And he always did so cheerfully and without any extra "look at what a great guy I am" brownie points expectations; the one and only condition he required was to be allowed to play his choice of music while he worked (one year it was Thick as a Brick, weirdly).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:55 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:55 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Gee, it's like their entire education comes from porn, huh.
That's been going on since before it was easy to get any porn at all, much less something that radical (that actually used to be radical, kids). I think it's honestly just a complete lack of understanding how sex - especially someone else's sex - works and no interest in finding out because...why would you?
I don't think every guy does that specific thing, but there's a bunch of bumbling dumbassery (ha) out there that could be fixed with 10-15 minutes of reading, much less some sort of curious exposure to someone else's parts.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:56 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's been going on since before it was easy to get any porn at all, much less something that radical (that actually used to be radical, kids). I think it's honestly just a complete lack of understanding how sex - especially someone else's sex - works and no interest in finding out because...why would you?
I don't think every guy does that specific thing, but there's a bunch of bumbling dumbassery (ha) out there that could be fixed with 10-15 minutes of reading, much less some sort of curious exposure to someone else's parts.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:56 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
in my experience (both directly and in stories from friends) the trying to "oopsie" into anal sex is something that predates the hot and cold running faucets of porn that the internet has given us.
posted by nadawi at 11:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:18 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think a fair bit about the girls' books I read growing up, ones from the teens and 20s and onward often with boarding school or a group of female friends. They promoted the idea that it was women's responsibility and work, even activist work, to do emotional labor. The work was shown as leadership that was all about fixing everyone's problems and making sure everyone got along. I think they were radical in that they showed women turning this work towards each other. For example, Betty Wales. (You will have to imagine a giant digression here about women's basketball and the activism required to make that happen.) There are also so many books of that era for girls that glorify making a home and doing it well. (Domestic Science, anyone! It was revolutionary. ) Anyway, this sort of narrative fuzzes into the "angel in the house" idea unfortunately, since we do not always end up in girls' boarding school or women's communes but in nuclear families, where we perform all this leaderly and crucial labor, the underpinning of our entire society, for free. I do that labor in ways that many of you describe, running a household with my partner and children. It is a continuing process to balance keeping things going, holding it up when I can to support my family, and learning how to negotiate handing off as much as I can without staying in the position of the person with the executive function who figures out what needs to be done and tells everyone what needs doing. By always doing that (since I am better at it) it means that the other people in the household don't get the chance to develop the ability. And yet, it is also something that I take pride in (being able to do this labor well, as a disabled mom)
One more note is that much of this thread, though not all, is about (often, white) middle class life, and we should keep that in mind. A giant pitfall here, is that we can't build our liberation as women on the back of other women. This ends up, in the U.S., being upper middle and upper class women exploiting women of color, who still need to go home and clean their own house and take care of their children. It's a trap for everyone involved. This is not my beautiful co-operative....
My other thought, going back to where I started off in this comment, is that when we choose to give this emotional labor and logistical support, it's a powerful gift and it can be powerful activism. That is something also to take pride in. And when you see it in action I think it's important to give it great respect. Now I'm not talking about the PTA (though you could see that as such) but about people directly supporting each other in community and keeping those ties strong. What if we had better institutions to support that kind of work? What could that look like! So much possibility.
posted by geeklizzard at 11:22 AM on July 23, 2015 [19 favorites]
One more note is that much of this thread, though not all, is about (often, white) middle class life, and we should keep that in mind. A giant pitfall here, is that we can't build our liberation as women on the back of other women. This ends up, in the U.S., being upper middle and upper class women exploiting women of color, who still need to go home and clean their own house and take care of their children. It's a trap for everyone involved. This is not my beautiful co-operative....
My other thought, going back to where I started off in this comment, is that when we choose to give this emotional labor and logistical support, it's a powerful gift and it can be powerful activism. That is something also to take pride in. And when you see it in action I think it's important to give it great respect. Now I'm not talking about the PTA (though you could see that as such) but about people directly supporting each other in community and keeping those ties strong. What if we had better institutions to support that kind of work? What could that look like! So much possibility.
posted by geeklizzard at 11:22 AM on July 23, 2015 [19 favorites]
Baahaahaa oopsie into anal; I'm dying.
posted by kinetic at 11:24 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by kinetic at 11:24 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread is making me really deeply appreciate my husband, who engages in a ton of emotional labour. He pays attention to how my day is going, gives me extra loving feedback when I'm stressed, noticed what I like and don't like, arranges outings, doesn't expect me to mediate his relationships, especially with his family, and so on.He's not perfect of course, but he may well do more of the EL than I do. I do it all day at work and am frequently not up to it in the evenings.
I'm lucky but also I insisted on these qualities in my next partner after I left the last one. Crone Boyfriend.
I'm really grateful for the vocabulary this thread is giving me. It's also crystallizing for me a ton of things about my work life and relationships with extended family. Thank you, everybody.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:26 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm lucky but also I insisted on these qualities in my next partner after I left the last one. Crone Boyfriend.
I'm really grateful for the vocabulary this thread is giving me. It's also crystallizing for me a ton of things about my work life and relationships with extended family. Thank you, everybody.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:26 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
The oopsie-into-anal is just so bizarre-- like, good luck with that! Good luck with bumping your dick against my completely non-relaxed anus. Feels good eh. Next time, I'll oopsie-into-anal you and you can break up with me because your feelings and body actually matter.
I was also going to say, as much as I like the "Crone Island" designation as an American who has never actually been on a tropical vacation, there are plenty of women with both white/middle-class and non-white, non-middle class problems who actually live in island nations so it comes off as disrespectful/nonintersectional to me.
posted by easter queen at 11:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was also going to say, as much as I like the "Crone Island" designation as an American who has never actually been on a tropical vacation, there are plenty of women with both white/middle-class and non-white, non-middle class problems who actually live in island nations so it comes off as disrespectful/nonintersectional to me.
posted by easter queen at 11:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
i will say surprise butt stuff is one of those weird things were it seems to happen on all sides, though - i've had plenty of guy friends tell me how upset they were about suddenly getting a finger in their ass. nearly all of them lacked the language to discuss consent as it pertained to their own bodies (instead of seeing as something they responded to that women control).
posted by nadawi at 11:32 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:32 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
That is a good point, nadawi-- having never done it to a dude before, I wasn't aware, but it's not cool when consent is taken for granted.
posted by easter queen at 11:33 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by easter queen at 11:33 AM on July 23, 2015
", but there's a bunch of bumbling dumbassery (ha) out there that could be fixed with 10-15 minutes of reading"
Eh, you need to have access to the right reading materials and you need to know if the source is accurate. I mean, to use an extreme example, Cosmo is known for giving out some of the worst sex advice.
posted by I-baLL at 11:35 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Eh, you need to have access to the right reading materials and you need to know if the source is accurate. I mean, to use an extreme example, Cosmo is known for giving out some of the worst sex advice.
posted by I-baLL at 11:35 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was also going to say, as much as I like the "Crone Island" designation as an American who has never actually been on a tropical vacation, there are plenty of women with both white/middle-class and non-white, non-middle class problems who actually live in island nations so it comes off as disrespectful/nonintersectional to me.
Speaking for myself, I wasn't thinking of it as a tropical island at all. More like Themyscira.
"When Wonder Woman's homeland is first introduced in 1941, it is referred to as Paradise Island, a secret and hidden island inhabited by the Amazons of myth. The Amazons had grown tired of the evil ways of mankind in ancient Greece after being enslaved by Hercules and had separated themselves to this island where they could practice a peaceful way of life and cultivate their minds. With the island blessed by the Olympian Gods, no man is allowed to physically set foot on it. "
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:36 AM on July 23, 2015 [35 favorites]
Speaking for myself, I wasn't thinking of it as a tropical island at all. More like Themyscira.
"When Wonder Woman's homeland is first introduced in 1941, it is referred to as Paradise Island, a secret and hidden island inhabited by the Amazons of myth. The Amazons had grown tired of the evil ways of mankind in ancient Greece after being enslaved by Hercules and had separated themselves to this island where they could practice a peaceful way of life and cultivate their minds. With the island blessed by the Olympian Gods, no man is allowed to physically set foot on it. "
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:36 AM on July 23, 2015 [35 favorites]
I had sort of conceptualized it as a play on "no man is an island", and also that concept of island as a geographically self-boundarying (and defensible) area. And maybe also a place with nice weather.
There are plenty of women with both white/middle-class and non-white, non-middle class problems who live in cities, unincorporated areas, buildings, mountains, parks, riverboats, and even mansions so I don't know what to call a metaphorical location that isn't going to step on someone's toes. I don't think anyone's intention was to exploit labor or imply that everything is perfect on islands, but if I'm wrong or there is a better suggestion I am definitely not trying to hurt anyone.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:42 AM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
There are plenty of women with both white/middle-class and non-white, non-middle class problems who live in cities, unincorporated areas, buildings, mountains, parks, riverboats, and even mansions so I don't know what to call a metaphorical location that isn't going to step on someone's toes. I don't think anyone's intention was to exploit labor or imply that everything is perfect on islands, but if I'm wrong or there is a better suggestion I am definitely not trying to hurt anyone.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:42 AM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
easter queen: The oopsie-into-anal is just so bizarre-- like, good luck with that! Good luck with bumping your dick against my completely non-relaxed anus.
Ahum. I've been on the receiving end of an actual oopsie of that nature, and it hurt for several days. So... this is a thing that happened. It's possible, and it's no fun.
The guy didn't enjoy it either, as it was not his intention for this to happen at all (it was not something he was into) and he felt horrible about hurting me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:43 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ahum. I've been on the receiving end of an actual oopsie of that nature, and it hurt for several days. So... this is a thing that happened. It's possible, and it's no fun.
The guy didn't enjoy it either, as it was not his intention for this to happen at all (it was not something he was into) and he felt horrible about hurting me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:43 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
And, of course, sexytimes was over instantly.
Over. And. Done.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:44 AM on July 23, 2015
Over. And. Done.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:44 AM on July 23, 2015
you need to know if the source is accurate
A really good accurate source is the mouth of the person whose body you're wanting to do stuff with. Ask it things.
posted by billiebee at 11:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
A really good accurate source is the mouth of the person whose body you're wanting to do stuff with. Ask it things.
posted by billiebee at 11:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
Eh, you need to have access to the right reading materials and you need to know if the source is accurate. I mean, to use an extreme example, Cosmo is known for giving out some of the worst sex advice.
Back in the early nineties I acquired information about sex - including anal - by reading Dan Savage and Tristan Taormino in our free weekly arts paper and by acquiring the more fun sort of sex book (Susie Bright-ish stuff, mostly). This was when I was in my late teens and early twenties, so I had enough of my own money and enough private time to do this; I would not have the same expectations of a teenager, especially in the nineties but even now with ready online access to this kind of information. The men-who-oopsied were all college-educated, leftish, smarter than average and had enough discretionary income to go out to dinner and pay for punk shows (or more grown up equivalents later on) - we're not talking about marginalized people here. I would have a lot more sympathy if these were people who genuinely had structural reasons to be unable to access information - but seriously, my parents were extremely, extremely conservative about sex and were pretty judgey about what I was reading even after I left home - I definitely had to hide what I read and purchased both when I was still living at home and when they visited after I moved out. There were disincentives to do what I did, but I did it anyway. The dudes didn't - and it seems like this wasn't just that I met a bunch of outliers, either.
posted by Frowner at 11:48 AM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
Back in the early nineties I acquired information about sex - including anal - by reading Dan Savage and Tristan Taormino in our free weekly arts paper and by acquiring the more fun sort of sex book (Susie Bright-ish stuff, mostly). This was when I was in my late teens and early twenties, so I had enough of my own money and enough private time to do this; I would not have the same expectations of a teenager, especially in the nineties but even now with ready online access to this kind of information. The men-who-oopsied were all college-educated, leftish, smarter than average and had enough discretionary income to go out to dinner and pay for punk shows (or more grown up equivalents later on) - we're not talking about marginalized people here. I would have a lot more sympathy if these were people who genuinely had structural reasons to be unable to access information - but seriously, my parents were extremely, extremely conservative about sex and were pretty judgey about what I was reading even after I left home - I definitely had to hide what I read and purchased both when I was still living at home and when they visited after I moved out. There were disincentives to do what I did, but I did it anyway. The dudes didn't - and it seems like this wasn't just that I met a bunch of outliers, either.
posted by Frowner at 11:48 AM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
The first step to dealing with a problem is understanding that the problem exists. Without even participating here, by just reading what women have to say about their experiences and recognizing their validity as actual problems, we're taking our own steps toward that understanding.
posted by mikurski at 11:55 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by mikurski at 11:55 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
All I said was that if you're starting from scratch then it's hard to know what are good, accurate sources for sex education. I think you guys are reading too much into my comment.
posted by I-baLL at 11:57 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 11:57 AM on July 23, 2015
Eh, you need to have access to the right reading materials and you need to know if the source is accurate. I mean, to use an extreme example, Cosmo is known for giving out some of the worst sex advice.
I get what you're saying-- that it's not a super quick fix-- but I am a woman who read Cosmo as a tween and before I was ready to have sex, I definitely knew that Cosmo advice was trash and how to have about 17 different types of sex that I've mostly still never had (ok exaggeration), so... yea, you have to vet your sources, but that's a type of emotional labor in this case, I think.
We're reading "too much" into it because we all started from scratch and figured it out. And the suggestion that guys can google any kind of porn they want but might get confused about sex ed is kind of lame.
posted by easter queen at 11:58 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I get what you're saying-- that it's not a super quick fix-- but I am a woman who read Cosmo as a tween and before I was ready to have sex, I definitely knew that Cosmo advice was trash and how to have about 17 different types of sex that I've mostly still never had (ok exaggeration), so... yea, you have to vet your sources, but that's a type of emotional labor in this case, I think.
We're reading "too much" into it because we all started from scratch and figured it out. And the suggestion that guys can google any kind of porn they want but might get confused about sex ed is kind of lame.
posted by easter queen at 11:58 AM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Actually, not even just from scratch. I used Cosmo as an example because people don't realize a lot of the info there is just wrong. It's my favorite example of bad sex advice.
posted by I-baLL at 11:58 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 11:58 AM on July 23, 2015
"And the suggestion that guys can google any kind of porn they want but might get confused about sex ed is kind of lame."
That's not what I said. I said that it's hard to know what is accurate sex ed because not all sex ed is accurate. I mean, a lot of sex ed in the midwest is abstinance only. And in my sex ed class in school things weren't explained properly at all so if somebody doesn't know to be skeptical then they may end up with bad info. I mean, one of the biggest reasons for funding Planned Parenthood is because they deliver accurate sex ed advice.
posted by I-baLL at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2015
That's not what I said. I said that it's hard to know what is accurate sex ed because not all sex ed is accurate. I mean, a lot of sex ed in the midwest is abstinance only. And in my sex ed class in school things weren't explained properly at all so if somebody doesn't know to be skeptical then they may end up with bad info. I mean, one of the biggest reasons for funding Planned Parenthood is because they deliver accurate sex ed advice.
posted by I-baLL at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2015
Also, I disagree that it's exactly hard, if you're fairly intelligent. There are plenty of things I'm not an expert on, but I can tell when a source is breathless or superficial.
Most of the guys I've had "relations" with were intelligent. They just didn't care. Reading and thinking about your love life/sex life/emotional life is for women.
But yea, Cosmo is really quite bad in this area. Maybe it balances out the weight of male porn sex education in the universe.
posted by easter queen at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Most of the guys I've had "relations" with were intelligent. They just didn't care. Reading and thinking about your love life/sex life/emotional life is for women.
But yea, Cosmo is really quite bad in this area. Maybe it balances out the weight of male porn sex education in the universe.
posted by easter queen at 12:01 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
As I'm finally getting through all the comments, it suddenly occurred to me that my parents' inability to perform emotional labor in their personal lives (perhaps because, as therapists, that's all they do at work) and expectation that I perform the emotional labor in my relationship with them, is the whole reason I basically don't have a relationship with them. Much as I hate to be quid pro quo in relationships, I'm now thinking that going forward I'm going to expend the exact amount of emotional labor on them that they spend on me. Liberating.
posted by mchorn at 12:05 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by mchorn at 12:05 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
PUA forums and guides might be a better example of sex-ignorant male media.
posted by mikurski at 12:05 PM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by mikurski at 12:05 PM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I know that sex ed in schools can be horrifically bad-- mine was bad. It didn't matter, because I grew up with the internet and curiosity. The guys I've dated have also grown up with the internet, but somehow their sexual curiosity did not extend to actually googling how things work in real life. Honestly, to me it is just another "I don't see messes" conversation. How do you not want to know how to have sex? How do you not even try?
And I know you're talking about a particular kind of sheltered, non-questioning person who is woefully miseducated-- which I agree, is a problem-- but these dudes I date were totally skeptical about every other thing in life. Not sure why not crappy, hearsay sex advice.
posted by easter queen at 12:07 PM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
And I know you're talking about a particular kind of sheltered, non-questioning person who is woefully miseducated-- which I agree, is a problem-- but these dudes I date were totally skeptical about every other thing in life. Not sure why not crappy, hearsay sex advice.
posted by easter queen at 12:07 PM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
I was also going to say, as much as I like the "Crone Island" designation as an American who has never actually been on a tropical vacation, there are plenty of women with both white/middle-class and non-white, non-middle class problems who actually live in island nations so it comes off as disrespectful/nonintersectional to me.
Speaking for myself, I wasn't thinking of it as a tropical island at all. More like Themyscira.
I wasn't thinking tropical either - I had more of a vision of one of Washington state's islands. Rocky and pine filled. I think that's part of what's making Crone Island work for me. It is whatever you imagine it is.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:07 PM on July 23, 2015 [19 favorites]
Speaking for myself, I wasn't thinking of it as a tropical island at all. More like Themyscira.
I wasn't thinking tropical either - I had more of a vision of one of Washington state's islands. Rocky and pine filled. I think that's part of what's making Crone Island work for me. It is whatever you imagine it is.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:07 PM on July 23, 2015 [19 favorites]
By some fluke, my copies of Cosmo and Sassy arrived on the same day every month. They were a good blend.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:11 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:11 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
All I said was that if you're starting from scratch then it's hard to know what are good, accurate sources for sex education. I think you guys are reading too much into my comment.
The point is that women (or people living as women who do not identify as women) frequently do all this start-from-scratch stuff and men frequently don't, even when the men are smart, educated and have both time and money. We're not talking about people who only have access to what their high schools provide, or people who haven't had a chance to practice evaluating sources.
posted by Frowner at 12:11 PM on July 23, 2015 [30 favorites]
The point is that women (or people living as women who do not identify as women) frequently do all this start-from-scratch stuff and men frequently don't, even when the men are smart, educated and have both time and money. We're not talking about people who only have access to what their high schools provide, or people who haven't had a chance to practice evaluating sources.
posted by Frowner at 12:11 PM on July 23, 2015 [30 favorites]
There are tons of studies that show women tend to age in a more healthful way because they are so practiced at maintaining social networks. Men tend to rely on their partners for social networks, and if they divorce/she dies, he often has very few people in his network because he didn't do his share of lifting to create a social network.
I know there's at least some truth to this; two years ago after a breakup I took a look around and realized that between living in a new city and dedicating all my weekends and most of my social energy to my SO I had a pretty shallow external social network. Fortunately not empty thanks to two key acquaintances and some church connections, which gave me something to start working with. The SO and I were back together a few months later, but I promised myself I was going to give at least some regular attention to a circle beyond the one we shared.
At the same time, I've suspected for a while there may actually be more than one form of privilege operating here.
There's one that's out in the open in-thread where various role-habits conspire to give men various degrees of the privilege of assuming someone else will do interpersonal/social/household emotional work. That seems well-founded to me.
But I think anytime one says "they just weren't working hard enough" in regards to someone's failure, well... from what I've been able to glean in thinking about privilege, half of learning to see these things is in thinking carefully about the question of why things that might *seem* easy on their merits to one person could turn out to be difficult for someone else. And I think the answer might go beyond enabling men to avoid it and into privileges women have that may be less visible to them. From a recent AskMe breakup thread there's some speculation about the biology of breakups and it would indicate a disadvantage men face relative to women in that situation ("Thanks to a neurochemical called vasopressin, men in crisis are more likely to see other men as less approachable, but that same chemical cues women to see other women as more approachable"). Or there's the well-tread ground about how patriarchy culture tends to train men to be competitive with their identity-group rather than cooperative (and possessive rather than associative outside of that group).
This is not an argument that one shouldn't try to encourage men or others unused to emotional labor to contribute. It's good for everyone if we do. Just a caution against assuming that any missing output is primarily a function of missing effort or strategic/learned helplessness.
posted by weston at 12:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I know there's at least some truth to this; two years ago after a breakup I took a look around and realized that between living in a new city and dedicating all my weekends and most of my social energy to my SO I had a pretty shallow external social network. Fortunately not empty thanks to two key acquaintances and some church connections, which gave me something to start working with. The SO and I were back together a few months later, but I promised myself I was going to give at least some regular attention to a circle beyond the one we shared.
At the same time, I've suspected for a while there may actually be more than one form of privilege operating here.
There's one that's out in the open in-thread where various role-habits conspire to give men various degrees of the privilege of assuming someone else will do interpersonal/social/household emotional work. That seems well-founded to me.
But I think anytime one says "they just weren't working hard enough" in regards to someone's failure, well... from what I've been able to glean in thinking about privilege, half of learning to see these things is in thinking carefully about the question of why things that might *seem* easy on their merits to one person could turn out to be difficult for someone else. And I think the answer might go beyond enabling men to avoid it and into privileges women have that may be less visible to them. From a recent AskMe breakup thread there's some speculation about the biology of breakups and it would indicate a disadvantage men face relative to women in that situation ("Thanks to a neurochemical called vasopressin, men in crisis are more likely to see other men as less approachable, but that same chemical cues women to see other women as more approachable"). Or there's the well-tread ground about how patriarchy culture tends to train men to be competitive with their identity-group rather than cooperative (and possessive rather than associative outside of that group).
This is not an argument that one shouldn't try to encourage men or others unused to emotional labor to contribute. It's good for everyone if we do. Just a caution against assuming that any missing output is primarily a function of missing effort or strategic/learned helplessness.
posted by weston at 12:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
The point is that women (or people living as women who do not identify as women) frequently do all this start-from-scratch stuff and men frequently don't, even when the men are smart, educated and have both time and money.
Yes yes yes yes yes. This stuff is still left for women to worry about, and men are supposed to, I don't know, just be awesome at sex without ever learning or trying. Another example of toxic masculinity.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yes yes yes yes yes. This stuff is still left for women to worry about, and men are supposed to, I don't know, just be awesome at sex without ever learning or trying. Another example of toxic masculinity.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
I didn't even have the internet and I figured it out a whole lot more than men of my generation...still haven't, tbh.
The Cosmo thing creates insecurity. It's just this constant stream of YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG BUY THIS MASCARA TO RELIEVE YOUR ANXIETY ABOUT HOW WORTHLESS YOU ARE.
(It does leak into the zeitgeist - I'm convinced everybody's so ass-friendly now because the magazines of the 90s created the porn tropes of the 2000s created the butt-stuff-for-all 10s.)
But mostly it creates insecurity, and as long as you're insecure these things remain a thing you are both supposed to be an expert on and never speak of lest you be revealed as a non-expert, so that you'll buy more Dodge McMansion Axe Mascara to feel better. It IS confusing and it does cause anxiety and it does create secrecy for everyone, but women still seem to be better at getting past it than men do...and then find themselves poorly taken care of, feel insecure, buy yogurt, etc.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:21 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Cosmo thing creates insecurity. It's just this constant stream of YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG BUY THIS MASCARA TO RELIEVE YOUR ANXIETY ABOUT HOW WORTHLESS YOU ARE.
(It does leak into the zeitgeist - I'm convinced everybody's so ass-friendly now because the magazines of the 90s created the porn tropes of the 2000s created the butt-stuff-for-all 10s.)
But mostly it creates insecurity, and as long as you're insecure these things remain a thing you are both supposed to be an expert on and never speak of lest you be revealed as a non-expert, so that you'll buy more Dodge McMansion Axe Mascara to feel better. It IS confusing and it does cause anxiety and it does create secrecy for everyone, but women still seem to be better at getting past it than men do...and then find themselves poorly taken care of, feel insecure, buy yogurt, etc.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:21 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
whatta ya know, i googled "how to anal sex" and the first three results were cosmo...and if you swat away some of their annoying house style, pretty informative.
A Complete Beginner's Guide to Anal Sex
8 Anal Foreplay Tips for Beginners
Sex Talk Realness: Anal Sex Tips From Two Women Who've Had It
i also clicked through the whole first page on google and all of the advice covered the basics pretty well. it doesn't seem like an instance of not knowing what advice to trust, it's thinking that will be the case and not searching at all, i think. we teach boys that men just know how to please their partners, like they're just naturally good at it, and most of the time they could stand to do a google search or two. instead, some are just shoving into their lady's asses raw and uncleaned and being surprised that poop also happens there.
posted by nadawi at 12:21 PM on July 23, 2015 [16 favorites]
A Complete Beginner's Guide to Anal Sex
8 Anal Foreplay Tips for Beginners
Sex Talk Realness: Anal Sex Tips From Two Women Who've Had It
i also clicked through the whole first page on google and all of the advice covered the basics pretty well. it doesn't seem like an instance of not knowing what advice to trust, it's thinking that will be the case and not searching at all, i think. we teach boys that men just know how to please their partners, like they're just naturally good at it, and most of the time they could stand to do a google search or two. instead, some are just shoving into their lady's asses raw and uncleaned and being surprised that poop also happens there.
posted by nadawi at 12:21 PM on July 23, 2015 [16 favorites]
The point is that women (or people living as women who do not identify as women) frequently do all this start-from-scratch stuff and men frequently don't, even when the men are smart, educated and have both time and money. We're not talking about people who only have access to what their high schools provide, or people who haven't had a chance to practice evaluating sources.
I just remembered a friend of mine in high school who kept coming to me asking for help learning how to pleasure his girlfriend, because he knew that I had been reading books like The New Joy of Sex and Our Bodies, Ourselves, and The Guide to Getting It On, and the Kama Sutra, and the Complete Dummies Guide to Getting Your Fuck On, and whatever else was available. He had a job and a car, just like me, and parents that respected his privacy, but my suggestion that he go buy his own copy of any one of these books fell on deaf ears. He borrowed one of mine but either didn't bother reading it or didn't comprehend it, because he returned it and told me that he really just needed someone to tell him what to do, in order, to get this girl off. Why he never thought to ask HER, I'll never know.
posted by palomar at 12:29 PM on July 23, 2015 [24 favorites]
I just remembered a friend of mine in high school who kept coming to me asking for help learning how to pleasure his girlfriend, because he knew that I had been reading books like The New Joy of Sex and Our Bodies, Ourselves, and The Guide to Getting It On, and the Kama Sutra, and the Complete Dummies Guide to Getting Your Fuck On, and whatever else was available. He had a job and a car, just like me, and parents that respected his privacy, but my suggestion that he go buy his own copy of any one of these books fell on deaf ears. He borrowed one of mine but either didn't bother reading it or didn't comprehend it, because he returned it and told me that he really just needed someone to tell him what to do, in order, to get this girl off. Why he never thought to ask HER, I'll never know.
posted by palomar at 12:29 PM on July 23, 2015 [24 favorites]
Yeah Cosmo has its problems (heteronormativity, including the reinforcement of the idea that it's women's responsibility to do the emotional/sexual heavy lifting in a relationship, focus on a very narrow white/thin beauty standard, though they're veeeery slowly getting better), but the factual accuracy of their sex information is usually fine. A lot of LOLCOSMO seems to be the idea that women who want to read information about emotional, sexual, and social skills directed at them are dim/shallow/classless/slutty, because that kind of work is supposed to be invisible and effortless.
posted by kagredon at 12:37 PM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 12:37 PM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
It may also be that they used to be legitimately, dangerously horrible. I don't even know if I've cracked one since 2000 but in the 80s and 90s they routinely published stuff that could easily end up requiring medical attention.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:45 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 12:45 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Oh god, suddenly remembering when I was 16 - my mom had died recently, and one of my (gay) older brothers was trying his best and got me some kind of sex ed book written by a guy (I forget if it was actually from playboy press or if my brain filled that in later). I thanked him and went and later went and got a copy of Our Bodies Our Selves which I then poured over. The late 70's/early 80's green edition, before they revised it into the phone-book size edition with red lettering.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:46 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 12:46 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm still processing my feelings from this thread. Like lots of other people, I genuinely feel like it has changed my life. But unlike a lot of people, I don't feel like I want to dance like a wild thing under the light of Crone Island, with a taco in one hand and a margarita in the other. More like, I want to go sit on an isolated crag and sip my margarita and smoke a cigarette in silence and stare at the moon on the water and think about Life. I don't feel liberated by the thread; I feel sad and and weighed down. The story that resonates the most for me in the whole thread is Don Pepino's fork story; for my whole life, I feel like I've been wandering around with a fork in my hand, feeling both stupid because everyone else seems to know what to do with their forks, and vaguely guilty because I'm not doing more.
And now I have my answer as to why I've felt so guilty for most of my life - I don't carry my weight when it comes to a huge chunk of emotional labor. I'm great at in-person conversations; I will listen to you talk and help you process your feelings and be kind to you and make you feel good and smart and funny and loved until the cows come home. But all the practical stuff: the cards and the flowers and the communal cleaning-up and the organizing conferences and the administrative scutwork of life and the remembering peoples' birthdays and the creating a home where people feel comfortable and buying presents and jumping up to do the dishes before you're asked: I hate it, and it sends me into a panicky spiral, both when I'm expected to do it and when other people do it for me. The truth is that getting a thank-you note makes me feel like a pile of shit; it doesn't make me feel good, it makes me feel angry and suffocated and imposed-on, and I've never known why.
Now, in light of the thread, I think it must have something to do with my family dynamics; that my mom's role was 100% emotional labor (keeping house, child-rearing) and it was devalued in our household (Dad: "Pretentious Illiterate has to study for her SAT's, she has more important things to do than clean her room!" Mom: "What, so you don't think I have more important things to do than clean P.I.'s room? What does that say about what I am worth to you?"). The demands of emotional labor made my mom obviously, dramatically miserable, and so I fought against them; I battled like hell to keep myself from being co-opted into her role, and in the end I was exempted, but the tradeoff was that I had to accept an uncomfortable role in my family, which I've carried over into many more of my relationships: I am smart and highly accomplished, but I am selfish, and laughably incompetent at basic tasks, and inexplicably bad at being a girl; like a man in some 1950s sitcom, I am lovably helpless and need other people - other women - to care for me.
My resistance to performing emotional labor is so deeply ingrained that it doesn't feel like a choice any more; it feels like part of who I am. And so now, with a name for what I've been in rebellion against, and a better understanding of where the sense of unfairness accompanying all this comes from, I can see things more clearly but I don't see a solution. The disdain that was unleashed towards all the boyfriends who don't remember birthdays and don't clean the house and can't remember the basics of their lives without help, and the assertion that they must be selfish, they must be lazy, they must not care about other people...that made me feel sick to my stomach, because it's the disdain has been directed at me my whole life; it's the radiation background of my existence. The crazymaking part of it is that I know that if I were a guy I'd get a pass, and my behavior would seem normal; that I wouldn't feel crushed by guilt every time I fail to send a thank-you note or keep the bathroom clean for guests, and that pisses me right the fuck off. But I also know that when I dodge the work, I make more work for other people, other women who weren't "excused" from this role for stupid sexist reasons, and that's not right, either. The insight is there, but the feelings haven't shifted - both the visceral horror of emotional labor and the guilt I feel for not performing it remain.
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm really, really glad that this thread exists, but it brought me face to face with a whole lot of internalized misogyny and self-loathing that didn't just evaporate when exposed to the sunlight, and that makes me really sad.
And I still don't know what to do with this freaking fork.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 12:48 PM on July 23, 2015 [160 favorites]
And now I have my answer as to why I've felt so guilty for most of my life - I don't carry my weight when it comes to a huge chunk of emotional labor. I'm great at in-person conversations; I will listen to you talk and help you process your feelings and be kind to you and make you feel good and smart and funny and loved until the cows come home. But all the practical stuff: the cards and the flowers and the communal cleaning-up and the organizing conferences and the administrative scutwork of life and the remembering peoples' birthdays and the creating a home where people feel comfortable and buying presents and jumping up to do the dishes before you're asked: I hate it, and it sends me into a panicky spiral, both when I'm expected to do it and when other people do it for me. The truth is that getting a thank-you note makes me feel like a pile of shit; it doesn't make me feel good, it makes me feel angry and suffocated and imposed-on, and I've never known why.
Now, in light of the thread, I think it must have something to do with my family dynamics; that my mom's role was 100% emotional labor (keeping house, child-rearing) and it was devalued in our household (Dad: "Pretentious Illiterate has to study for her SAT's, she has more important things to do than clean her room!" Mom: "What, so you don't think I have more important things to do than clean P.I.'s room? What does that say about what I am worth to you?"). The demands of emotional labor made my mom obviously, dramatically miserable, and so I fought against them; I battled like hell to keep myself from being co-opted into her role, and in the end I was exempted, but the tradeoff was that I had to accept an uncomfortable role in my family, which I've carried over into many more of my relationships: I am smart and highly accomplished, but I am selfish, and laughably incompetent at basic tasks, and inexplicably bad at being a girl; like a man in some 1950s sitcom, I am lovably helpless and need other people - other women - to care for me.
My resistance to performing emotional labor is so deeply ingrained that it doesn't feel like a choice any more; it feels like part of who I am. And so now, with a name for what I've been in rebellion against, and a better understanding of where the sense of unfairness accompanying all this comes from, I can see things more clearly but I don't see a solution. The disdain that was unleashed towards all the boyfriends who don't remember birthdays and don't clean the house and can't remember the basics of their lives without help, and the assertion that they must be selfish, they must be lazy, they must not care about other people...that made me feel sick to my stomach, because it's the disdain has been directed at me my whole life; it's the radiation background of my existence. The crazymaking part of it is that I know that if I were a guy I'd get a pass, and my behavior would seem normal; that I wouldn't feel crushed by guilt every time I fail to send a thank-you note or keep the bathroom clean for guests, and that pisses me right the fuck off. But I also know that when I dodge the work, I make more work for other people, other women who weren't "excused" from this role for stupid sexist reasons, and that's not right, either. The insight is there, but the feelings haven't shifted - both the visceral horror of emotional labor and the guilt I feel for not performing it remain.
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm really, really glad that this thread exists, but it brought me face to face with a whole lot of internalized misogyny and self-loathing that didn't just evaporate when exposed to the sunlight, and that makes me really sad.
And I still don't know what to do with this freaking fork.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 12:48 PM on July 23, 2015 [160 favorites]
Maybe inspired by the "oopsie into anal" discussion, which WT actual F?
I'm adding to the playlist:
Miranda Lambert's Gunpowder and Lead
Sugar and spice? Not for you, buddy.
posted by susiswimmer at 12:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm adding to the playlist:
Miranda Lambert's Gunpowder and Lead
Sugar and spice? Not for you, buddy.
posted by susiswimmer at 12:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
pretentious illiterate: I hear you. A lot of what you're saying encapsulates my own experience quite well. Part of my anger about being expected to do so much of the emotional labour is the knowledge that I'm really bad at a lot of it and I have grown up feeling guilty and inadequate about it. And about how my incompetence puts a greater burden on other, more competent women. And so I get doubly angry that the guys get away with it, but it doesn't do anything to wash away the guilt and self - recrimination, and it still doesn't make me any better at this stuff.
posted by bardophile at 12:59 PM on July 23, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by bardophile at 12:59 PM on July 23, 2015 [20 favorites]
because he returned it and told me that he really just needed someone to tell him what to do, in order, to get this girl off.
That poor woman. I hope she kicked his sorry ass to the curb.
posted by MissySedai at 1:12 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
That poor woman. I hope she kicked his sorry ass to the curb.
posted by MissySedai at 1:12 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mean, one of my most self-actualized friends who was in her mid thirties and dating another grown adult told me about this whole "I'm going to attempt to have anal sex with you without asking first on a stick-it-in-now basis why are you telling me no" situation.
Gee, it's like their entire education comes from porn, huh.
I don't think you can put that on porn, as others say above. Porn may portray anal as not needing prodigious lube and prep and universally appealing to everyone, but the one thing most of it portrays is enthusiastic consent. I'm sure there's stuff out there appealing to those who want to see unhappy women but most everything else shows everyone happy and aware about what's going on.
posted by phearlez at 1:13 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Gee, it's like their entire education comes from porn, huh.
I don't think you can put that on porn, as others say above. Porn may portray anal as not needing prodigious lube and prep and universally appealing to everyone, but the one thing most of it portrays is enthusiastic consent. I'm sure there's stuff out there appealing to those who want to see unhappy women but most everything else shows everyone happy and aware about what's going on.
posted by phearlez at 1:13 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Aye, Pretentious Illiterate and Bardophile, you're not alone. This discussion is so fascinating in so many ways. Having grown up as a 70s-raised tomboy geek with (then undiagnosed) ADHD, I'm starting to seeing how and why I bristled so much at "girly" things in a manner far beyond personal taste, and how in my 20s, to my shame, I was one of those, who, while loudly feminist, carried a lot of internalized misogyny.
And while I can write thank you notes, thanks to years of expectations from (both) parents, I'm not much better at the social things. But I can do better! I have postcards sitting on my desk right now.
That I haven't written out yet but I promise I will!
posted by mimi at 1:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [20 favorites]
And while I can write thank you notes, thanks to years of expectations from (both) parents, I'm not much better at the social things. But I can do better! I have postcards sitting on my desk right now.
That I haven't written out yet but I promise I will!
posted by mimi at 1:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [20 favorites]
I've always known what needs to be done, I'm just a bit less awesome at doing it, unless it's in front of my face.
posted by mimi at 1:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by mimi at 1:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Count me as another person who's quite bad at a lot of basic maintenance emotional labor, although I'm a good person to lean on in a crisis or even for day-to-day angst (I burn out after a while, though). My frustration about men who don't pick up emotional labor in a relationship is less "why can't they do these basic, easy things," and more "why can't they sometimes pick up my slack instead of vice versa." I mean, emotional labor is hard! That's the point! It's labor! And like any kind of labor, it's harder for some people than others, and there shouldn't be a stigma to that, any more than there should be a stigma to having lower dexterity or physical endurance or short-term memory than someone else. But where a person with less-than-average dexterity would probably not become, say, a professional scrimshaw artist, there's little recourse for a woman who finds emotional labor especially taxing to opt out -- or even get an assist.
posted by babelfish at 1:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [38 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 1:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [38 favorites]
pretentious illiterate, bardophile, babelfish, Don Pepito and anyone else who needs it -
I am a woman who knows exactly what to bring to a sickbed (wrote a book on it), can throw an awesome party and can remember everyone's birthday. Here is the deal. I love this stuff. Some of my nearest and dearest are women who are talented, smart or funny as fuck and don't have these skills or hate doing this stuff, but they appreciate it in me. They reciprocate. In their own way.
No one needs to be good at all of it. I think we could all do a better job of appreciating what everyone brings to the table.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [66 favorites]
I am a woman who knows exactly what to bring to a sickbed (wrote a book on it), can throw an awesome party and can remember everyone's birthday. Here is the deal. I love this stuff. Some of my nearest and dearest are women who are talented, smart or funny as fuck and don't have these skills or hate doing this stuff, but they appreciate it in me. They reciprocate. In their own way.
No one needs to be good at all of it. I think we could all do a better job of appreciating what everyone brings to the table.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:25 PM on July 23, 2015 [66 favorites]
I don't think you can put that on porn, as others say above. Porn may portray anal as not needing prodigious lube and prep and universally appealing to everyone, but the one thing most of it portrays is enthusiastic consent. I'm sure there's stuff out there appealing to those who want to see unhappy women but most everything else shows everyone happy and aware about what's going on.
My thoughts about the porn were much more about the "this is effortless, prep-less and everyone likes it" aspect rather than the consent aspect....in general the guys in my particular life were the kind who only acted when they thought that they had either explicit or implicit consent, and my reading of the situations was much more "hey, this is an easy, discomfort-free thing that everyone likes! Since we're in the 'having sex without getting verbal consent for every step of the way because we know each other now' part of the relationship, I can just forge ahead!" It wasn't that they didn't think/care if they had consent; it was that they had not troubled to find out what the act entailed and had not troubled to find out about the whole painful-if-done-wrong aspect. It was the lazy ignorance rather than consent issues which bothered me.
posted by Frowner at 1:27 PM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think there's a HUGE difference between not doing the things, and not doing the things but expecting all the benefits of the things to accrue to you, personally, because that's just the way things work, and honey, why aren't you doing the things, my mom always did the things.
I have friendships where we have mutually agreed that certain forms of emotional labor are going to be collectively abandoned or adapted and that everyone will be okay with it. ("When I forget to call you for six months, I still love you and think about you all the time." "Okay, got it!") ("I never remember to buy presents, so whenever you buy me one and I forget, I'll buy dinner." "Works for me!")
Opting out is less of a problem than opting out while expecting other people to be permanently opting in.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:29 PM on July 23, 2015 [59 favorites]
I have friendships where we have mutually agreed that certain forms of emotional labor are going to be collectively abandoned or adapted and that everyone will be okay with it. ("When I forget to call you for six months, I still love you and think about you all the time." "Okay, got it!") ("I never remember to buy presents, so whenever you buy me one and I forget, I'll buy dinner." "Works for me!")
Opting out is less of a problem than opting out while expecting other people to be permanently opting in.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:29 PM on July 23, 2015 [59 favorites]
Oh, definitely, I'm great at parties and in person, and of -thinking- of the things I need to do for distance relationships, but picking up the phone or writing a card is not my forte. Thank goodness for Facebook.
...And this also explains why I'm so annoyed if distance friends don't interact with me there! It's worse when I can see them posting and liking stuff; just de-friend me if you're not going to comment or like anything I ever post ever. Sheesh
posted by mimi at 1:31 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
...And this also explains why I'm so annoyed if distance friends don't interact with me there! It's worse when I can see them posting and liking stuff; just de-friend me if you're not going to comment or like anything I ever post ever. Sheesh
posted by mimi at 1:31 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
A fiendish thingy, you and your friends are aces!
posted by mimi at 1:33 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mimi at 1:33 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Damn, this thread has made me think a lot.
I'm non-neurotypical, and my mom is somewhere in there as well. I was homeschooled, by my mom(who used to work at a school for special needs kids and is a great, patient, teacher) who basically taught me that most of this stuff was just... stuff that you do. Not just the cards or whatever caused the derail early on, but noticing shit and caring was something you had to do to participate and not stand out as a Weird Not Normal Person. She basically taught me what she learned, so it was sort of a lot of the default-lady-person stuff. And my dad was barely around until i was in high school, so i didn't get much modeling there. Nor from other kids, you know, with the homeschooling and only hanging out with other fringey homeschooled kids.
And yea, since i didn't know any better, and basically had to learn how to be a real person the hard way, there was never a good dividing line between regular stuff and what would be classed here as emotional labor.
The result is kind of weird though. If i'm in a group of all guys, or when i had entirely male roommates, i always ended up being the one who took the money and figured out what food and supplies to buy, made sure we didn't run out of toilet paper, cleaned up. Ugh. Diffusing arguments... I've also gotten my friends birthday and christmas gifts since i got my first job, and i think i've gotten like two gifts total in basically ten years.
This thread made it finally click in my head why most of my friends are women. My relationships with most of my guy friends end up falling apart because they wont reciprocate on figuring shit out. I always end up being the one to make plans, or i'm always getting asked what i'm doing instead of it being a give and take. Or i go, and i end up still being the one to figure everything out and make everything work. I've also definitely experienced that dynamic where they just want to dump on me about all their problems, but i never feel like i can talk to them about anything i have going on. There's just like... a disconnect.
So much of this thread has made me go "wow, guys really act like that?" and then i remember back to my college roommates, or stories from other friends. I always thought it was just a few isolated people not doing their part, i didn't realize this was something shunned en-masse and this thread pretty much made me cry.
I felt really, really alone despite being surrounded by people who were ostensibly friends until i just started letting myself drift away from people who withdrew but never deposited. The hardest ones are the people who were there more than once when i really needed them, but have just been cashing in that store credit ever since and haven't been there day to day in years.
I definitely believe quite a few men are bad at this stuff, but i've encountered people who i know get it, because when it really counts they work it out fine, but they just opt out 99% of the time. That hurts more, somehow.
posted by emptythought at 1:36 PM on July 23, 2015 [46 favorites]
I'm non-neurotypical, and my mom is somewhere in there as well. I was homeschooled, by my mom(who used to work at a school for special needs kids and is a great, patient, teacher) who basically taught me that most of this stuff was just... stuff that you do. Not just the cards or whatever caused the derail early on, but noticing shit and caring was something you had to do to participate and not stand out as a Weird Not Normal Person. She basically taught me what she learned, so it was sort of a lot of the default-lady-person stuff. And my dad was barely around until i was in high school, so i didn't get much modeling there. Nor from other kids, you know, with the homeschooling and only hanging out with other fringey homeschooled kids.
And yea, since i didn't know any better, and basically had to learn how to be a real person the hard way, there was never a good dividing line between regular stuff and what would be classed here as emotional labor.
The result is kind of weird though. If i'm in a group of all guys, or when i had entirely male roommates, i always ended up being the one who took the money and figured out what food and supplies to buy, made sure we didn't run out of toilet paper, cleaned up. Ugh. Diffusing arguments... I've also gotten my friends birthday and christmas gifts since i got my first job, and i think i've gotten like two gifts total in basically ten years.
This thread made it finally click in my head why most of my friends are women. My relationships with most of my guy friends end up falling apart because they wont reciprocate on figuring shit out. I always end up being the one to make plans, or i'm always getting asked what i'm doing instead of it being a give and take. Or i go, and i end up still being the one to figure everything out and make everything work. I've also definitely experienced that dynamic where they just want to dump on me about all their problems, but i never feel like i can talk to them about anything i have going on. There's just like... a disconnect.
So much of this thread has made me go "wow, guys really act like that?" and then i remember back to my college roommates, or stories from other friends. I always thought it was just a few isolated people not doing their part, i didn't realize this was something shunned en-masse and this thread pretty much made me cry.
I felt really, really alone despite being surrounded by people who were ostensibly friends until i just started letting myself drift away from people who withdrew but never deposited. The hardest ones are the people who were there more than once when i really needed them, but have just been cashing in that store credit ever since and haven't been there day to day in years.
I definitely believe quite a few men are bad at this stuff, but i've encountered people who i know get it, because when it really counts they work it out fine, but they just opt out 99% of the time. That hurts more, somehow.
posted by emptythought at 1:36 PM on July 23, 2015 [46 favorites]
"Ragged Island," a poem for Crone Island. More poems by Edna St. Vincent Millay (why would you have only an excerpt of "Ragged Island"? It's a short poem!); I particularly recommend "An Ancient Gesture."
posted by languagehat at 1:50 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 1:50 PM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I always thought it was just a few isolated people not doing their part, i didn't realize this was something shunned en-masse and this thread pretty much made me cry
This is one thing that made me really sad-- thinking of all my male friends from high school/college, and how hard I tried to make things work, like the social director of my friend club. And when I felt like I was dragging people by the scruff of the neck, how unloved and unhappy that made me feel, even when it worked and people liked it.
posted by easter queen at 1:51 PM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is one thing that made me really sad-- thinking of all my male friends from high school/college, and how hard I tried to make things work, like the social director of my friend club. And when I felt like I was dragging people by the scruff of the neck, how unloved and unhappy that made me feel, even when it worked and people liked it.
posted by easter queen at 1:51 PM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
Once upon a time I did send a gift in the mail to my best male friend, and when he got it he called me and was like "this is the perfect gift! it's part [this], part [that], and part [the other thing]!!" and I was so overjoyed because that was exactly how I felt, exactly what I'd planned on to make it perfect, and I was like jesus christ someone appreciated that. THAT strengthened the friendship more than possibly anything else could have, even a gift in return.
posted by easter queen at 1:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 1:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [26 favorites]
But where a person with less-than-average dexterity would probably not become, say, a professional scrimshaw artist, there's little recourse for a woman who finds emotional labor especially taxing to opt out -- or even get an assist.
This. I have been struggling with how to articulate this. My mother and mother-in-law are both emotional labour champions. They have a knack for it AND they have devoted their lives to honing the constellation of skills that is required to be ThePerfectHomemaker(TM). They also struggle to understand that not everyone shares their standards or their devotion to being homemakers. And Pakistani family structures don't leave as much room for ignoring your mother or your mother-in-law as one might have in a more WASPy culture. So the fact that my skills are well below what even I think is the minimal competence that an adult should have comes into tumultuous conflict with the fact that they have insanely high standards, which they are only now struggling to meet because they are aging. And their frustration with their own diminishing abilities combines ingloriously with their uncomprehending frustration at what seems to them to be my obdurate refusal to take on the jobs that are "my responsibility" because "these things just have to be done". They never explain why they have to be done exclusively by females, though...
posted by bardophile at 1:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]
This. I have been struggling with how to articulate this. My mother and mother-in-law are both emotional labour champions. They have a knack for it AND they have devoted their lives to honing the constellation of skills that is required to be ThePerfectHomemaker(TM). They also struggle to understand that not everyone shares their standards or their devotion to being homemakers. And Pakistani family structures don't leave as much room for ignoring your mother or your mother-in-law as one might have in a more WASPy culture. So the fact that my skills are well below what even I think is the minimal competence that an adult should have comes into tumultuous conflict with the fact that they have insanely high standards, which they are only now struggling to meet because they are aging. And their frustration with their own diminishing abilities combines ingloriously with their uncomprehending frustration at what seems to them to be my obdurate refusal to take on the jobs that are "my responsibility" because "these things just have to be done". They never explain why they have to be done exclusively by females, though...
posted by bardophile at 1:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [22 favorites]
Whoever linked the Harper's article "Cassandra Among The Creeps" upthread, thank you (ah, it's by Rebecca "Men Explain Things To Me" Solnit, of course it would be):
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [59 favorites]
Still, even now, when a woman says something uncomfortable about male misconduct, she is routinely portrayed as delusional, a malicious conspirator, a pathological liar, a whiner who doesn’t recognize it’s all in fun, or all of the above. The overkill of these responses recalls Freud’s deployment of the joke about the broken kettle. A man accused by his neighbor of having returned a borrowed kettle damaged replies that he had returned it undamaged, it was already damaged when he borrowed it, and he had never borrowed it anyway. When a woman accuses a man and he or his defenders protest that much, she becomes that broken kettle.That article focuses on sexual abuse, rape, and sexual harassment, but the joke applies more broadly too. "Emotional labor? What's that? ...But that's what females are biologically programmed to do, so doing it daily unthanked and unnoticed can't qualify as 'damage.' OK the unnoticing and taking it for granted qualifies as damage, but it's the way things have always been and will always be, so why pick on *me* to change something that's never going to change. Look, i don't agree that emotional labor exists, cuz I never benefitted from all those petty things you do that you're calling 'labor,' because you had the nerve to forget my craft beer. Seriously you want me to thank you for forgetting my craft beer?"
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 1:53 PM on July 23, 2015 [59 favorites]
YES. Thank you cybercoitus interruptus as well as Freud.
posted by easter queen at 1:55 PM on July 23, 2015
posted by easter queen at 1:55 PM on July 23, 2015
"I think there's a HUGE difference between not doing the things, and not doing the things but expecting all the benefits of the things to accrue to you, personally, because that's just the way things work, and honey, why aren't you doing the things, my mom always did the things."
This.
I think that's why the greeting card derail at the top of the discussion made me walk away from the thread for a good chunk of time (before the Meta brought me back). I don't send cards for anything. I don't care if I never get cards for anything. Some cards and little gifts actually make me feel lousy because of the accompanying sense of annoyance at now being obligated to reciprocate (bardolph put it better). And my attitude was: who cares about cards? You don't want to send them? Don't send them.
But the thing is, it's not about the cards; it was never about the cards. It's about the obligation to send the cards. The world would not be a worse place if no one sent cards. But it will be as long as people expect cards, which then forces people (read: women) into the card-sending role. It's that cultural dynamic that a) tells women you're not a good person if you don't send cards, b) tells men, if she doesn't send cards it means she doesn't love you / your family enough, and c) tells men that sending cards is a silly lady thing, so they're afraid to step up if sending cards is something that matters to them. (And you can substitute all sorts of other emotional labor for "sending cards"). Society has put this on our radar as a universal, so you can't opt out without repercussions. But I'm hoping discussions like this can change that. So we can say "I don't do X but I still love you," and even if it doesn't help X get done, at least we can lose the weight of the guilt and the expectation, and maybe, just maybe, convince the men in our lives to do a bit more X, if it turns out X is important to them.
posted by Mchelly at 1:56 PM on July 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
This.
I think that's why the greeting card derail at the top of the discussion made me walk away from the thread for a good chunk of time (before the Meta brought me back). I don't send cards for anything. I don't care if I never get cards for anything. Some cards and little gifts actually make me feel lousy because of the accompanying sense of annoyance at now being obligated to reciprocate (bardolph put it better). And my attitude was: who cares about cards? You don't want to send them? Don't send them.
But the thing is, it's not about the cards; it was never about the cards. It's about the obligation to send the cards. The world would not be a worse place if no one sent cards. But it will be as long as people expect cards, which then forces people (read: women) into the card-sending role. It's that cultural dynamic that a) tells women you're not a good person if you don't send cards, b) tells men, if she doesn't send cards it means she doesn't love you / your family enough, and c) tells men that sending cards is a silly lady thing, so they're afraid to step up if sending cards is something that matters to them. (And you can substitute all sorts of other emotional labor for "sending cards"). Society has put this on our radar as a universal, so you can't opt out without repercussions. But I'm hoping discussions like this can change that. So we can say "I don't do X but I still love you," and even if it doesn't help X get done, at least we can lose the weight of the guilt and the expectation, and maybe, just maybe, convince the men in our lives to do a bit more X, if it turns out X is important to them.
posted by Mchelly at 1:56 PM on July 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
My problem with porn...well the porn that was out there say 10 years ago... was that in the attempt to make it hot! hot! hot! it inevitably followed the script of: a bit of vaginal sex, a bit of anal, and then the big finish with oral!
Also while we are on this subject can I just say how very much I hate the hot steamy romances in movies where the guy slams the girl up against the wall and fucks her with no preparation whatsoever, usually climaxing after a minute. Don Draper did that this last season on Mad Men. It always makes me tighten involuntarily.
Receiving lingerie as a present and being expected to purr in delight, throw it on and prance about like a happy sex kitten, waiting for it to be torn off by Mr. I got you a great present which is really all about me!
So you make it clear that it isn't a present for you and you are still waiting for YOUR present.
My darling boy showers me with presents at my birthday and Christmas. Usually there is one item that he really wants to see me wear, could be a blouse, could be a bra, but it is counterbalanced with something cozy or comfortable that he thinks I will really enjoy wearing like good sports gear or heavy fleece pants or cashmere sweater (usually all three to be honest.) Also socks-- good socks. Also in the pile of presents is about 5 to 10 make-up/lotion/oil/soap things. Plus something fun like a boardgame. Plus a few other things for gardening and/or painting and/or reading. He used to shower me with candy and snacks as well but 4 years ago I went lo-carb so he has had to stop doing that.
I only write this out to say that giving you lingerie is fine as long as he gives you stuff you really want and acknowledges that the sexy bedroom stuff is more for his enjoyment.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also while we are on this subject can I just say how very much I hate the hot steamy romances in movies where the guy slams the girl up against the wall and fucks her with no preparation whatsoever, usually climaxing after a minute. Don Draper did that this last season on Mad Men. It always makes me tighten involuntarily.
Receiving lingerie as a present and being expected to purr in delight, throw it on and prance about like a happy sex kitten, waiting for it to be torn off by Mr. I got you a great present which is really all about me!
So you make it clear that it isn't a present for you and you are still waiting for YOUR present.
My darling boy showers me with presents at my birthday and Christmas. Usually there is one item that he really wants to see me wear, could be a blouse, could be a bra, but it is counterbalanced with something cozy or comfortable that he thinks I will really enjoy wearing like good sports gear or heavy fleece pants or cashmere sweater (usually all three to be honest.) Also socks-- good socks. Also in the pile of presents is about 5 to 10 make-up/lotion/oil/soap things. Plus something fun like a boardgame. Plus a few other things for gardening and/or painting and/or reading. He used to shower me with candy and snacks as well but 4 years ago I went lo-carb so he has had to stop doing that.
I only write this out to say that giving you lingerie is fine as long as he gives you stuff you really want and acknowledges that the sexy bedroom stuff is more for his enjoyment.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
One of the MANY new thoughts I am having in the wake of this thread is about the existence of fake emotional labor and why I find it upsetting. I can give you an example of this from just last night. My husband and I were dining at a restaurant, ordered dessert, and while we were waiting for that, he was commenting that he was still hungry and wished he had ordered the kebabs too. Then, just as we were finishing dessert, a friend wandered in, happy to see us, and we said, sit, order, we'll stay and talk. So the friend orders and my husband also orders the kebabs, friend says but didn't you just have dessert? And my husband says yes but I don't want you to have to eat alone.
On the one hand, I think, well, it's not like he's not at all motivated by wanting to keep him company. And what harm does it do, to let the other person think you're doing something nice for them? Except that it feels horrible when he does this to me. And he does it quite a bit. He's actually very good at many aspects of emotional labor, better than I am. But then he does this. I always fall for it, and think he's doing something sweet for me, then realize that it's actually motivated by self-interest and the supposed "emotional labor" part is just window dressing, and it makes me feel so sad. I'm not saying he never does things with pure intentions, he does. But this feels like an insidious form of dishonesty that taints even the good things by making me second guess them. (I'm just the opposite of this, weirdly, I guess--doing nice things kind of brusquely because I sometimes feel self-conscious, almost deliberately robbing myself of the "credit" for doing something thoughtful.)
posted by HotToddy at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2015 [49 favorites]
On the one hand, I think, well, it's not like he's not at all motivated by wanting to keep him company. And what harm does it do, to let the other person think you're doing something nice for them? Except that it feels horrible when he does this to me. And he does it quite a bit. He's actually very good at many aspects of emotional labor, better than I am. But then he does this. I always fall for it, and think he's doing something sweet for me, then realize that it's actually motivated by self-interest and the supposed "emotional labor" part is just window dressing, and it makes me feel so sad. I'm not saying he never does things with pure intentions, he does. But this feels like an insidious form of dishonesty that taints even the good things by making me second guess them. (I'm just the opposite of this, weirdly, I guess--doing nice things kind of brusquely because I sometimes feel self-conscious, almost deliberately robbing myself of the "credit" for doing something thoughtful.)
posted by HotToddy at 2:09 PM on July 23, 2015 [49 favorites]
YES. Thank you cybercoitus interruptus as well as Freud.
Content Note: rape / incest / rape culture
It broke my heart when I learned that Freud realized that conversion disorder (ne hysteria) was a result of extreme, unspeakable trauma (in the cases he saw, incest) and then walked back from that because the men who were doing it were ones he thought "couldn't" do something so reprehensible. It reminds me of all the stories about how so and so is a "good boy" - a pattern which remains today. I like him, so he couldn't have done those horrible things. That woman must be lying. It also reminds me of all of the stories about very young girls being "tempresses" and the number of people who think that the events of Lolita were the fault of the Lolita, not the man deliberately grooming and sexualizing her.
There is something ugly in the expectations-knot of women being trained/expected to make ourselves attractive and then being punished for how others react to it even when those reactions are completely out of our control. I feel like I'm getting afield of emotional labor per se, but there's a way in which women are set up to be used by others, and then blamed for being used, which is exacerbated by age, class, and race in a really vile manner, and to me it feels like a way for some men to get what they want without any consequences or thought of the effect it has on the other person.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [38 favorites]
Content Note: rape / incest / rape culture
It broke my heart when I learned that Freud realized that conversion disorder (ne hysteria) was a result of extreme, unspeakable trauma (in the cases he saw, incest) and then walked back from that because the men who were doing it were ones he thought "couldn't" do something so reprehensible. It reminds me of all the stories about how so and so is a "good boy" - a pattern which remains today. I like him, so he couldn't have done those horrible things. That woman must be lying. It also reminds me of all of the stories about very young girls being "tempresses" and the number of people who think that the events of Lolita were the fault of the Lolita, not the man deliberately grooming and sexualizing her.
There is something ugly in the expectations-knot of women being trained/expected to make ourselves attractive and then being punished for how others react to it even when those reactions are completely out of our control. I feel like I'm getting afield of emotional labor per se, but there's a way in which women are set up to be used by others, and then blamed for being used, which is exacerbated by age, class, and race in a really vile manner, and to me it feels like a way for some men to get what they want without any consequences or thought of the effect it has on the other person.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [38 favorites]
Prententious illiterate, whatever you do please don't start doing the fucking work, okay? Just don't damn do it and don't feel bad, just drop the fork wherever is handy and give it the finger with both hands and walk away and go read or ride out to someplace fantastic, whatever you best like to do please do. Just please, be the one that got away. I can't begin to express to you how huge a relief it was to read your comment. I tried to favorite it two times. I don't want to hate the fucking mens anymore; it's exhausting. There has to be a better explanation than that they're all assholes and idiots for why they will not learn to do the stuff. You just gave it to me. Reading that felt like... uh. Well, okay, it felt like if you're driving in a car with no AC for two hours in the middle of the summer and you get to the spring and you get out of the car and you jump into the spring. Ahhh, oh my god, thank God, I understand. I understand. I do not have to be angry at them and better yet I do not have to be sad for them. The losses they experience because they will not expend the effort to care for the people they love are theirs; if they won't mourn, if they can't mourn, so be it. It's sad for sure, but that sadness they don't feel is theirs. There is no reason in the world I need to feel it for them. And YOU must not mourn one more SECOND over presents and flowers and forks. You do plenty of emotional work--you just DID a huge chunk of it right here that has improved people's lives not just mine I guarantee. So FUCK everybody who thinks you need to clean the bathroom. I'm here to tell you, you can decline to clean the bathroom for YEARS ON END and still be perfectly fine. Be who you are: it is wonderful to know that you're out there somewhere, free, being you.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 2:20 PM on July 23, 2015 [36 favorites]
HotToddy : heh. Interesting that he didn't choose to say something like, "Hey thanks! You've given me the perfect excuse to order those kebabs I was just wishing for *and* we get to chat!"
posted by bardophile at 2:21 PM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by bardophile at 2:21 PM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
jenmarie: performing emotional labor day in and day out takes a lot of analytical, practical, intellectual skillsSo, I'm a guy, and I run a company. I am neither the world’s best nor worst CEO, but lately I have been making more of an effort to take care of our employees. Things like regular check-ups, one-on-one meetings, finding out how they’re feeling, what sorts of thing they like and dislike about the workplace, and so on. That means scheduling meetings, keeping notes, following up, being available for questions and emails, and constantly on the lookout for unusual things.
And motherfucker - that’s tiring work that takes a lot of thought! No wonder most people hand that stuff to HR.
The irony here is that while this is emotional labour, the difference between my story and all the amazing, powerful stories being told here by women, is that I'm being paid for it - plus I get to turn it off when I go home. Just imagining what it must be like for those who have to be doing this all day, every day, with no payment and little hope of respite, is tragic.
These stories also reminded me of something I only recently realised about my mum. When me and my brother were growing up, she spent a few years at home looking after us, and then went back to part time work as a teacher. Because that wasn't enough to be getting on with, she simultaneously pursued and completed a PhD. At the time, I thought this was normal, as any kid might.
But now I think, holy shit, who does that? It's hard enough to do a PhD full time, let alone with two other jobs. I started a PhD, and then I quit it. I don't think she got much help from anyone else in the family with it either, but she was determined to get it done and she did. The really shameful thing is that this realisation didn't come from myself - it came from my partner. Talk about consciousness-raising.
posted by adrianhon at 2:22 PM on July 23, 2015 [35 favorites]
Part of my anger about being expected to do so much of the emotional labour is the knowledge that I'm really bad at a lot of it
I've been joking for years "look, if I'm the organized one in this relationship, we're screwed!" Now I'm coming to recognize how much legitimate anger is underlying that joke.
FFS, I'm suicidally depressed, and (given the evidence of my family and their diagnoses) probably undiagnosed ADHD and mildly ASD. Yes, I had depression long before I met my husband. But how much of the fuuuuck, I am never going to be able to climb out of this feeling is because I recognize that if I don't provide the motivating impulse for all the getting-our-lives-in-order crap, none of it will get done, I'm starting to wonder.
posted by Lexica at 2:26 PM on July 23, 2015 [34 favorites]
I've been joking for years "look, if I'm the organized one in this relationship, we're screwed!" Now I'm coming to recognize how much legitimate anger is underlying that joke.
FFS, I'm suicidally depressed, and (given the evidence of my family and their diagnoses) probably undiagnosed ADHD and mildly ASD. Yes, I had depression long before I met my husband. But how much of the fuuuuck, I am never going to be able to climb out of this feeling is because I recognize that if I don't provide the motivating impulse for all the getting-our-lives-in-order crap, none of it will get done, I'm starting to wonder.
posted by Lexica at 2:26 PM on July 23, 2015 [34 favorites]
I think there's a HUGE difference between not doing the things, and not doing the things but expecting all the benefits of the things to accrue to you, personally, because that's just the way things work, and honey, why aren't you doing the things, my mom always did the things.
Yes yes yes yes yes. Yes. I've opted out of a ton of emotional work in my personal life, and I try to have friendships where, as others have said, not being in touch for long stretches of time is fine, because I'm a major introvert and get weirded out by too much contact, and I'm horrible at initiating plans because of various social-anxiety-ish stuff, and I have plenty of friendships that I think are pretty close that don't involve a lot of gifts or frequent phone calls or cards or whatever, because that's fine with everyone involved.
But: I know that about myself and I don't expect that someone else should be doing that work for me. I don't think plans should just magically materialize in front of me when I'm feeling like going out but not feeling like I want to bother with contacting other people myself. I don't think friends should magically know when I need extra support without my having to be in contact with them myself. I don't think my household should magically always have appropriate food, toiletries, and cleanliness-levels without my having to think about and execute the work for that to happen. Yet somehow, the romantic partners with whom I have lived have expected those things to happen for them, without their having to do anything to make those things happen. It's like they assumed that once a romantic partner lived with them, she brought along a cadre of social-life and cleaning and cooking elves who just took care of all of that so that they would never have to think about it ever again.
And they had lived on their own before we moved in together, so it's not like they didn't know those things didn't need to be done. They wanted those things to be done, and they expected those things to be done, and one of them reacted violently if those things weren't done. But they thought that they were entitled to have me do them for them. To me, that gapingly huge imbalance combined with major expectations from the one not doing the work is the most crushing aspect of the issue.
posted by jaguar at 2:42 PM on July 23, 2015 [40 favorites]
Yes yes yes yes yes. Yes. I've opted out of a ton of emotional work in my personal life, and I try to have friendships where, as others have said, not being in touch for long stretches of time is fine, because I'm a major introvert and get weirded out by too much contact, and I'm horrible at initiating plans because of various social-anxiety-ish stuff, and I have plenty of friendships that I think are pretty close that don't involve a lot of gifts or frequent phone calls or cards or whatever, because that's fine with everyone involved.
But: I know that about myself and I don't expect that someone else should be doing that work for me. I don't think plans should just magically materialize in front of me when I'm feeling like going out but not feeling like I want to bother with contacting other people myself. I don't think friends should magically know when I need extra support without my having to be in contact with them myself. I don't think my household should magically always have appropriate food, toiletries, and cleanliness-levels without my having to think about and execute the work for that to happen. Yet somehow, the romantic partners with whom I have lived have expected those things to happen for them, without their having to do anything to make those things happen. It's like they assumed that once a romantic partner lived with them, she brought along a cadre of social-life and cleaning and cooking elves who just took care of all of that so that they would never have to think about it ever again.
And they had lived on their own before we moved in together, so it's not like they didn't know those things didn't need to be done. They wanted those things to be done, and they expected those things to be done, and one of them reacted violently if those things weren't done. But they thought that they were entitled to have me do them for them. To me, that gapingly huge imbalance combined with major expectations from the one not doing the work is the most crushing aspect of the issue.
posted by jaguar at 2:42 PM on July 23, 2015 [40 favorites]
Yes, this. Probably one reason why my honey and I do so well not living together. Because I can take care of myself and he can take care of himself, and I'll be damned if I have to take care of someone who's fully capable of taking care of themselves, and vice versa.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:46 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:46 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've been following this thread avidly since it's inception and it's changed so much of how I see the world and explained aspects of my relationships that I hadn't fully wrapped my head around before. I had a few great conversations with the SO regarding the stories and he's started recognizing and acknowledging acts of emotional labor, which lead to the invention of ELPs – Emotional labor points.
posted by hindmost at 2:51 PM on July 23, 2015 [24 favorites]
Organize brunch with the in laws, including scheduling with multiple people and selecting a restaurant that is acceptable to all parties? 10 ELPs.It makes it easier to acknowledge each other's labor and adds the element of competitiveness to the equation. I'm this close to setting up an official scoreboard.
See that we're out of groceries and pick some up on your way home? 5 ELPs.
Plan a vacation and take care of all the logistics? 50 ELPs per day.
posted by hindmost at 2:51 PM on July 23, 2015 [24 favorites]
So my (challenging, histrionic, manipulative) mother managed to catch me on the phone, and in the midst of a difficult and draining conversation, while I was staring blankly at kitten videos and wishing I had one of those Feminine Mystique-era doctors who passed out tranqs like candy, or barring that, at least some weed, my husband IM'd me with a couple of links, making it obvious he'd gone ahead and made all the arrangements for our accommodations and travel for our anniversary jaunt to London, which we'd been discussing and basically agreed upon last week, but I hadn't got around to doing anything about it. The accompanying text said I went ahead and booked us into that same hotel in Bloomsbury, but if you'd rather stay somewhere else, let me know, and I will change it. I'll pick up our tickets when I'm passing through Euston the week before. Likewise, if you aren't ok with these dates, let me know and I'll change my holiday booking at work. Also, let me know if you need an excuse to get the fuck out of that conversation. I have no idea what drama bomb she dropped on you, but you were obviously shocked and distressed. (She led with I NEEEEEEED YOU, making me think, oh god, another major medical problem, but no, she's quarrelling with her neighbours again, and wanted sympathy. I am an only child, and she's either outlived or alienated the majority of her family and friends.)
So, in the spirit of fairness, I offer this anecdote. This is a pretty big deal; I didn't ask him to do this, and I know he did it because I really, really hate doing this sort of thing, and my mother putting me through the wringer always triggers some kind of compensatory caring response in him. I mean, he's probably going to ask me if we have any toothpaste when he's standing 18 inches away from it tomorrow morning, or expect me to assign him clothing to wear the next time we go out, but he does step up in fairly big ways from time to time, I just wish he was better at the small, boring, day-to-day garbage work, because that's the stuff that just grinds me down.
posted by skybluepink at 4:16 PM on July 23, 2015 [62 favorites]
So, in the spirit of fairness, I offer this anecdote. This is a pretty big deal; I didn't ask him to do this, and I know he did it because I really, really hate doing this sort of thing, and my mother putting me through the wringer always triggers some kind of compensatory caring response in him. I mean, he's probably going to ask me if we have any toothpaste when he's standing 18 inches away from it tomorrow morning, or expect me to assign him clothing to wear the next time we go out, but he does step up in fairly big ways from time to time, I just wish he was better at the small, boring, day-to-day garbage work, because that's the stuff that just grinds me down.
posted by skybluepink at 4:16 PM on July 23, 2015 [62 favorites]
"...one of those Feminine Mystique-era doctors who passed out tranqs like candy..."
You know? Right? Exactly? If we have to ride this Faludi backlash all the way back to the fifties, why the hell can't we get the perks along with the bullshit? I've never even had a tranquilizer! I wouldn't even know how to pick one out of a pile of vitamin pills!
posted by Don Pepino at 4:23 PM on July 23, 2015 [35 favorites]
You know? Right? Exactly? If we have to ride this Faludi backlash all the way back to the fifties, why the hell can't we get the perks along with the bullshit? I've never even had a tranquilizer! I wouldn't even know how to pick one out of a pile of vitamin pills!
posted by Don Pepino at 4:23 PM on July 23, 2015 [35 favorites]
fiercecupcake: "Yes, this. Probably one reason why my honey and I do so well not living together. Because I can take care of myself and he can take care of himself, and I'll be damned if I have to take care of someone who's fully capable of taking care of themselves, and vice versa."
I feel like I cannot mention this to my husband because I have no idea how he might take it and what kind of emotional fall-out I'd have to clean up, but: I miss my days of living alone in a studio by the beach with a passion of a thousand fiery suns.
Broke, working at a job I hate, dysfunctional family relationships and hardly any close friends, but alone and in charge of my own life.
Oh, and there was a lovely cat involved. It was a taste of crone island and I cannot rid myself of this hunger no matter how much other parts of my life improved since.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [27 favorites]
I feel like I cannot mention this to my husband because I have no idea how he might take it and what kind of emotional fall-out I'd have to clean up, but: I miss my days of living alone in a studio by the beach with a passion of a thousand fiery suns.
Broke, working at a job I hate, dysfunctional family relationships and hardly any close friends, but alone and in charge of my own life.
Oh, and there was a lovely cat involved. It was a taste of crone island and I cannot rid myself of this hunger no matter how much other parts of my life improved since.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:19 PM on July 23, 2015 [27 favorites]
i've often wished we had a model for relationships where cohabiting wasn't some sort of assumed step, and that going from cohabiting to living alone wasn't seen as some sort of death knell for the relationship. i feel super lucky that i actually like living with my partner, but that feels like a one in a million chance. i guess it gets more complicated with kids but for all the childfree couples, i'm surprised more don't live separately.
posted by nadawi at 5:26 PM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 5:26 PM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
This whole thing is especially a rude awakening for couples who started out with LDRs, as we did. There was no way to get a good handle on how someone works until they or you rearrange major things to finally come together. And if these are international distances, hoo-boy.
There's really nothing to do but spend time breaking each other out of surprise bad habits.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:33 PM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's really nothing to do but spend time breaking each other out of surprise bad habits.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:33 PM on July 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
oh god yes. my last relationship was an off and on ldr that had a decade+ of history and hooboy the surpises and baggage! my husband and i lived together as just friends years and years before we realized we were in love so we got the benefit of doing it backwards - learning how to live together, and then learning to love each other. it uncomplicated a lot of stuff about cohabitation (and complicated all sorts of other things but that's another story).
posted by nadawi at 5:37 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 5:37 PM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've been reading this since it was back at near 100 comments or so, and it just keeps growing. and I've held back a bit from commenting because I'm not strictly-speaking female or a woman, but also that is something I still sorta identify with, so... I'm a genderfucked queer, raised as a girl (and identified as female then), and I think most people currently read me as male; my partner is a bi cis guy; we're both early-mid 20s. We just moved in together a few weeks ago*, and right now he's working and I'm staying at home.
This is the obvious thing for me to do given that it's possible - he makes enough at his job to support both of us; baseline level stresses from studenting and working have historically caused me horrible depressive episodes (and other weirdness and badness), and this so far seems to be preventing me from wildly seesawing; there's enough to do around the apartment so I can be Super Useful and cook a bunch and clean and keep shit in good condition so that we can occasionally drop shit and go camping or w/e and everything doesn't fall apart? Like maybe in September I will start looking for a part time job, but we've talked it through and over and it makes sense for us right now.
But it's freaking me out sometimes because I'm not a woman, but I was female. Am I just upholding gender norms and stereotypes by being the More Feminine Partner and taking on the domestic role, since I was assigned female? I know roles and actions don't have jack shit to do with gender, andbut most of my friends perceive me as male, I think, even though male isn't what I would use, and what if they think I'm less male because I'm doing this domestic role? I'm not male, but I want to be seen as Not A Man because I'm not, not because I'm not very good at Acting Like a Man. Am I just caring about these little things like The Kitchen Being Clean and A Good Dinner because I'm the one that was raised femininely?
And last week I was giving myself a lot of grief because I didn't realize there was a pattern to it, right? I saw that he was Working and I was "cleaning and cooking and doing all the stuff to keep the house running, except he participates some too", but now I get that I'm the one doing most of the necessary and important emotional labor and it's like ohhhhhhhhh, I'm doing something important and necessary?
He got that I was doing Important and Useful things before I figured it out. He definitely does his share, too; I think we are really playing to our strengths. It's just weird for me to finally realize that the stuff I'm doing matters. And it's a skill! It's a skill I can get better at! Holy shit. I can learn to be a better partner, friend, person. I can take care of the people around me.
*after being long distance for 2.5ish years, but with we spent probably 1/3-1/2 our time together to be honest; he'd work remote from my city, and I spent all my breaks in his.
posted by you could feel the sky at 6:06 PM on July 23, 2015 [35 favorites]
This is the obvious thing for me to do given that it's possible - he makes enough at his job to support both of us; baseline level stresses from studenting and working have historically caused me horrible depressive episodes (and other weirdness and badness), and this so far seems to be preventing me from wildly seesawing; there's enough to do around the apartment so I can be Super Useful and cook a bunch and clean and keep shit in good condition so that we can occasionally drop shit and go camping or w/e and everything doesn't fall apart? Like maybe in September I will start looking for a part time job, but we've talked it through and over and it makes sense for us right now.
But it's freaking me out sometimes because I'm not a woman, but I was female. Am I just upholding gender norms and stereotypes by being the More Feminine Partner and taking on the domestic role, since I was assigned female? I know roles and actions don't have jack shit to do with gender, andbut most of my friends perceive me as male, I think, even though male isn't what I would use, and what if they think I'm less male because I'm doing this domestic role? I'm not male, but I want to be seen as Not A Man because I'm not, not because I'm not very good at Acting Like a Man. Am I just caring about these little things like The Kitchen Being Clean and A Good Dinner because I'm the one that was raised femininely?
And last week I was giving myself a lot of grief because I didn't realize there was a pattern to it, right? I saw that he was Working and I was "cleaning and cooking and doing all the stuff to keep the house running, except he participates some too", but now I get that I'm the one doing most of the necessary and important emotional labor and it's like ohhhhhhhhh, I'm doing something important and necessary?
He got that I was doing Important and Useful things before I figured it out. He definitely does his share, too; I think we are really playing to our strengths. It's just weird for me to finally realize that the stuff I'm doing matters. And it's a skill! It's a skill I can get better at! Holy shit. I can learn to be a better partner, friend, person. I can take care of the people around me.
*after being long distance for 2.5ish years, but with we spent probably 1/3-1/2 our time together to be honest; he'd work remote from my city, and I spent all my breaks in his.
posted by you could feel the sky at 6:06 PM on July 23, 2015 [35 favorites]
I'm catching up again on what happened here overnight (for me). Had to comment though in relation to the songs about men wanting women to take care of them like children/babies - this isn't just a male thing. The song "Gypsy" by Suzanne Vega, for example, has the refrain: "Oh hold me like a baby/ that will not fall asleep/ curl me up inside you/ and let me hear you through the heat". I mean, I don't want sexytimes with men at all anymore, so of course I find the idea of being their mother and being their partner to be pretty repugnant, but I think there is something about relationships that makes us (sometimes) look to our partners for that level of unconditional love, support and comfort that we got (or didn't get) from our mothers.
I definitely do not want to be anybody's mum, or have anyone be mine. But that level of love and comfort - yeah, I'd like to be able not only to receive but give that willingly to someone again. I am pretty bad at doing it for myself, since despite years of effort the negative self-talk routinely wins over the positive, and it would be lovely to occasionally have some backup. But I sure as hell never expected it from any of my past partners, male or female.
babelfish, I am with you about the weirdness of Mr Rogers obsessively maintaining his weight at 143 pounds. The Esquire article linked just makes it even weirder and stranger and count me out on that one.
pretentious illiterate, you are definitely not alone. I think my mother had a really damaged relationship with her own mother, which I think contributed a lot to the pretty damaged relationship we have. She did a certain amount of emotional labour, but did it with an undertone of resentment and put-upon-ness which became increasingly evident the older I got. Meanwhile, my dad provided a lot of emotional labour for my mum, listening tirelessly to her interminable stories about work. Not surprising, really, that I wound up with some mixed messages about which gender did what with the emotional work.
I think that you get to make up your own rules and that's the goal of all this consciousness-raising. For example, at parties I'm going to be in the kitchen helping with the washing-up because I am an introvert and having a task to do helps me cope. I'm not doing it because women are expected to do it as part of their emotional labour for the menfolk. I'm very good at remembering to do things for friends on their birthdays (even if I do have them in my calendar to remind me) and take a lot of joy in choosing presents that I think they will like. I suck at sending cards though. I'm pretty bad at remembering to thank my co-workers when they put in some extra effort or do something that really should be recognised, even with a simple "thank you". So I'm trying to use this thread to recognise where I put in emotional labour that works, where I put it in that is draining and sapping for me, and where I should work on putting in more. This is going to be different for all of us.
I'm not going to be dancing on Crone Island (my knees wouldn't let me for one thing) with a taco in one hand and a margarita in the other. I'm more likely to be found sitting under a tree with a book and a bottle of very nice scotch, sipping slowly. I'm happy to have some good D&Ms* with people who want them, or just think about stuff in solitude. It's all good.
*D&M is an Australian expression which stands for "deep and meaningful", applied to conversations.
posted by Athanassiel at 6:35 PM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
I definitely do not want to be anybody's mum, or have anyone be mine. But that level of love and comfort - yeah, I'd like to be able not only to receive but give that willingly to someone again. I am pretty bad at doing it for myself, since despite years of effort the negative self-talk routinely wins over the positive, and it would be lovely to occasionally have some backup. But I sure as hell never expected it from any of my past partners, male or female.
babelfish, I am with you about the weirdness of Mr Rogers obsessively maintaining his weight at 143 pounds. The Esquire article linked just makes it even weirder and stranger and count me out on that one.
pretentious illiterate, you are definitely not alone. I think my mother had a really damaged relationship with her own mother, which I think contributed a lot to the pretty damaged relationship we have. She did a certain amount of emotional labour, but did it with an undertone of resentment and put-upon-ness which became increasingly evident the older I got. Meanwhile, my dad provided a lot of emotional labour for my mum, listening tirelessly to her interminable stories about work. Not surprising, really, that I wound up with some mixed messages about which gender did what with the emotional work.
I think that you get to make up your own rules and that's the goal of all this consciousness-raising. For example, at parties I'm going to be in the kitchen helping with the washing-up because I am an introvert and having a task to do helps me cope. I'm not doing it because women are expected to do it as part of their emotional labour for the menfolk. I'm very good at remembering to do things for friends on their birthdays (even if I do have them in my calendar to remind me) and take a lot of joy in choosing presents that I think they will like. I suck at sending cards though. I'm pretty bad at remembering to thank my co-workers when they put in some extra effort or do something that really should be recognised, even with a simple "thank you". So I'm trying to use this thread to recognise where I put in emotional labour that works, where I put it in that is draining and sapping for me, and where I should work on putting in more. This is going to be different for all of us.
I'm not going to be dancing on Crone Island (my knees wouldn't let me for one thing) with a taco in one hand and a margarita in the other. I'm more likely to be found sitting under a tree with a book and a bottle of very nice scotch, sipping slowly. I'm happy to have some good D&Ms* with people who want them, or just think about stuff in solitude. It's all good.
*D&M is an Australian expression which stands for "deep and meaningful", applied to conversations.
posted by Athanassiel at 6:35 PM on July 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
I just saw this tweet and am currently thinking it sounds like the perfect date.
posted by Lexica at 6:43 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 6:43 PM on July 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
oh dude, dating yourself is the shit, let me tell you.
posted by palomar at 7:14 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by palomar at 7:14 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Being single is awesome, y'all. Never say never I guess, but I'm not sure I could go back to living with a dude again. If you're already doing the majority of the emotional work, you're kind of on your own already. It's much better to actually be alone and not have to deal with managing and/or tiptoeing around someone else. You can always hire someone to do the physical labor.
posted by desjardins at 7:22 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 7:22 PM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Oh man, Don Pepino, you made me cry at a coffee shop, but in the best way.
I just moved across the country for a relationship & I've been feeling lonely and disocated and confused as fuck. I don't know anyone in this city; I haven't talked to anyone but my SO in days, and I already nearly torpedoed my relationship out of my resistance to leaving my home city, where I had all of my female friends who sustain me & carry me and forgive me over and over again for all the times I've forgotten their birthdays and made them pee in my grody bathroom and stubbornly failed to respond to emails and all the rest of it.
And then as I was leaving the coffee shop where I cried over your comment, I ran into this girl. I don't know her real well, but we once had a really good conversation together at a party. She is this bubbly girl from Texas who is massively socially connected and emotional-labor-adept, and to be honest, I'm not 100% sure she even remembered my name, but she gave me this huge hug and took down my phone number and brought me out back to meet a friend of hers, and told that friend everything we had in common and got us talking, and mentioned two things she was going to do later in the week that I could come to where I would meet more people, and by the end of the conversation, I felt like a real person again for the first time in weeks. It was a goddamned fucking miracle.
So yeah, Crone Island. It's a beautiful place, as confusing as it can sometimes be. And it is a huge, messy task, figuring out what parts of this work matter and need to be elevated and fought for, and which ones can be graciously set aside. I guess most oppressive systems probably trap you somewhere between it's not fair that I have to do X and not doing X will hurt people I love. But there's not much to do about it, except to respond to the gift of other people's emotional labor with gratitude instead of guilt or resentment, and attempt to reciprocate in whatever way feels truest. Because yeah, despite all the garbage surrounding it, the core principle at stake here is so, so valuable. As this conversation has proven over and over again.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:46 PM on July 23, 2015 [65 favorites]
I just moved across the country for a relationship & I've been feeling lonely and disocated and confused as fuck. I don't know anyone in this city; I haven't talked to anyone but my SO in days, and I already nearly torpedoed my relationship out of my resistance to leaving my home city, where I had all of my female friends who sustain me & carry me and forgive me over and over again for all the times I've forgotten their birthdays and made them pee in my grody bathroom and stubbornly failed to respond to emails and all the rest of it.
And then as I was leaving the coffee shop where I cried over your comment, I ran into this girl. I don't know her real well, but we once had a really good conversation together at a party. She is this bubbly girl from Texas who is massively socially connected and emotional-labor-adept, and to be honest, I'm not 100% sure she even remembered my name, but she gave me this huge hug and took down my phone number and brought me out back to meet a friend of hers, and told that friend everything we had in common and got us talking, and mentioned two things she was going to do later in the week that I could come to where I would meet more people, and by the end of the conversation, I felt like a real person again for the first time in weeks. It was a goddamned fucking miracle.
So yeah, Crone Island. It's a beautiful place, as confusing as it can sometimes be. And it is a huge, messy task, figuring out what parts of this work matter and need to be elevated and fought for, and which ones can be graciously set aside. I guess most oppressive systems probably trap you somewhere between it's not fair that I have to do X and not doing X will hurt people I love. But there's not much to do about it, except to respond to the gift of other people's emotional labor with gratitude instead of guilt or resentment, and attempt to reciprocate in whatever way feels truest. Because yeah, despite all the garbage surrounding it, the core principle at stake here is so, so valuable. As this conversation has proven over and over again.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 7:46 PM on July 23, 2015 [65 favorites]
Oh I am so glad I'm not the only one who found that specific Mr. Rogers anecdote troubling. In the middle of all that feel-good storytelling in the Esquire piece, I did worry that dear, lovely Mr. R. had some disordered eating issue going on.
Re: dating yourself/single awesomeness. I managed to extract myself from a draining phone conversation with my mom earlier today, wherein she wanted me to do a bunch of emotional heavy lifting over her strained relationship with my father (and, oddly, print out an old AARP article and mail it to her... not troubleshoot her old malfunctioning printer, or talk her through installing the new one she reflexively purchased, but find this one article on the site, print it, and mail it 3,000 MILES ACROSS THIS GREAT LAND OF OURS when my brother and his printer live five doors down from her) (good grief I am so grateful for this fucking thread I am beyond the telling of it) and I am headed into a hot bath with a cold cocktail. I toast you all.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:49 PM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
Re: dating yourself/single awesomeness. I managed to extract myself from a draining phone conversation with my mom earlier today, wherein she wanted me to do a bunch of emotional heavy lifting over her strained relationship with my father (and, oddly, print out an old AARP article and mail it to her... not troubleshoot her old malfunctioning printer, or talk her through installing the new one she reflexively purchased, but find this one article on the site, print it, and mail it 3,000 MILES ACROSS THIS GREAT LAND OF OURS when my brother and his printer live five doors down from her) (good grief I am so grateful for this fucking thread I am beyond the telling of it) and I am headed into a hot bath with a cold cocktail. I toast you all.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:49 PM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
It was a taste of crone island and I cannot rid myself of this hunger no matter how much other parts of my life improved since
God, yea. Like I get it, it's a mid-life (or quarter-life) crisis, but there's no reason women can't have these wistful feelings (and have them be acknowledged?) too. There is no culture of "hey you, man, your wife is going to leave you if you don't give her more independence/options/spicy sex!" And I don't want there to be-- I want there to be a healthy recognition that everybody has these crises and it's a part of moving through stages in your life (whether you're partnered or not partnered or whatever). And also, that a woman's interiority doesn't conveniently self-clean like an oven once she's married.
And women have more reason to have a mid-life crisis, in these terms! My own mother had one, and it led to the divorce of my parents (which, sadly, she later regretted) and maybe if it were acknowledged that women are not de facto emotional dumping grounds and need to work through these mid-life things (and NOT just menopause) the same as men do, then she would have been able to acknowledge her feelings and make choices that more closely adhered to what she needed. Maybe what happened needed to happen, but she had very little language for what she was going through. A song would come on the radio and she'd say "that's it!! that's how I feel!" but she had nowhere else to turn, really.
posted by easter queen at 7:57 PM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
God, yea. Like I get it, it's a mid-life (or quarter-life) crisis, but there's no reason women can't have these wistful feelings (and have them be acknowledged?) too. There is no culture of "hey you, man, your wife is going to leave you if you don't give her more independence/options/spicy sex!" And I don't want there to be-- I want there to be a healthy recognition that everybody has these crises and it's a part of moving through stages in your life (whether you're partnered or not partnered or whatever). And also, that a woman's interiority doesn't conveniently self-clean like an oven once she's married.
And women have more reason to have a mid-life crisis, in these terms! My own mother had one, and it led to the divorce of my parents (which, sadly, she later regretted) and maybe if it were acknowledged that women are not de facto emotional dumping grounds and need to work through these mid-life things (and NOT just menopause) the same as men do, then she would have been able to acknowledge her feelings and make choices that more closely adhered to what she needed. Maybe what happened needed to happen, but she had very little language for what she was going through. A song would come on the radio and she'd say "that's it!! that's how I feel!" but she had nowhere else to turn, really.
posted by easter queen at 7:57 PM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
PS for safety's sake the cocktail is in a Wonder Woman travel mug, which is emblazoned with the words "This Amazon Princess Will Not Bow Down To Any Man!"
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:57 PM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:57 PM on July 23, 2015 [12 favorites]
In case you just did the same search I did: Wonder Woman travel mug. Sadly currently unavailable.
posted by gingerbeer at 8:05 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by gingerbeer at 8:05 PM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
But!
Wonder Woman Insulated Travel Mug
Coffee mug
I am Wonder Woman mug
posted by gingerbeer at 8:09 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Wonder Woman Insulated Travel Mug
Coffee mug
I am Wonder Woman mug
posted by gingerbeer at 8:09 PM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I took issue earlier in the thread with a mefite's assessment that we were just venting. And that he would generously step out to let us continue...but not before he'd had his say!
What really irked me at the time and still irks me was I that heard "venting" as a dogwhistle for women "bitching". Am I way off base? Hmmm.
posted by futz at 8:35 PM on July 23, 2015 [37 favorites]
What really irked me at the time and still irks me was I that heard "venting" as a dogwhistle for women "bitching". Am I way off base? Hmmm.
posted by futz at 8:35 PM on July 23, 2015 [37 favorites]
There is no culture of "hey you, man, your wife is going to leave you if you don't give her more independence/options/spicy sex!" And I don't want there to be
I do.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:40 PM on July 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
I do.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:40 PM on July 23, 2015 [25 favorites]
easter queen: "And also, that a woman's interiority doesn't conveniently self-clean like an oven once she's married."
Love it.
posted by erratic meatsack at 8:50 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Love it.
posted by erratic meatsack at 8:50 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Outside my hut on Crone Island will be a big offset smoker, in which I will grill-roast whole chickens, plank-grill fish, and smoke pork shoulders and brisket
Brisssskkkkeettttt. I so want to be good at brisket and I haven't gotten the knack yet. You have the knack. What can I bring you? Wood for the smoker? Flowers? This really neat piece of beach glass I found?
I definitely believe quite a few men are bad at this stuff, but i've encountered people who i know get it, because when it really counts they work it out fine, but they just opt out 99% of the time. That hurts more, somehow.
Because there's a wide difference between can't and chooses not to. Chooses not to implies you aren't worth the effort, and that hurts like hell.
posted by RogueTech at 9:22 PM on July 23, 2015 [23 favorites]
Brisssskkkkeettttt. I so want to be good at brisket and I haven't gotten the knack yet. You have the knack. What can I bring you? Wood for the smoker? Flowers? This really neat piece of beach glass I found?
I definitely believe quite a few men are bad at this stuff, but i've encountered people who i know get it, because when it really counts they work it out fine, but they just opt out 99% of the time. That hurts more, somehow.
Because there's a wide difference between can't and chooses not to. Chooses not to implies you aren't worth the effort, and that hurts like hell.
posted by RogueTech at 9:22 PM on July 23, 2015 [23 favorites]
This thread is kind of having a They Live sunglasses effect for me, both at work and at home.
At work, there's a committee whose chair rotates annually. Another analyst in our department, who got tapped to provide admin and logistical support this year, came to me a few weeks ago. "Hey, do you have a list of all the committee members? NewChair asked me to get that."
"Uh..." I said, "isn't that the kind of thing that OldChair should have passed along in the transfer process? No, I don't. Sorry." I'm pretty sure, based on overheard conversations later, that she asked another woman in our department (who's our walking institutional knowledge; q.v. problems listed above with being the one in that role) who helped her get the information.
The committee had a conference call this morning, which was marked by NewChair being unable to log into the webinar provider as chair (he didn't know the code) and being unable to advance the slides in his presentation himself (because he hadn't visited the "test your computer" link ahead of time) so the other analyst had to sit waiting for "next slide, please" the entire call.
I talked with her afterwards, and am pushing for the two of us to develop a documented transition process for when the chair rotates: here is the list of members, here are the necessary logins and passcodes, here's what you need to do before the first conference call, etc. If I look at it as "this is like so much around here, an inadequately developed and documented process" I might feel a bit less annoyed.
At home... over brunch on Sunday I mentioned this thread to my husband and told him that it was important to me that he read it. I could tell he didn't read it that day.
Monday, he did make the jumbo batch of chana dal I asked him to make, but because he didn't think to set the rice cooker and it would have been 9pm before we would have eaten, we ordered a pizza.
Tuesday morning at 10:20, he texted me: "Finished the emotional labor thread." At 12:20 he texted me again, this time with a photo of the now cleared-out and organized freezer, which had been utter chaos when I left for work.
Tuesday was my birthday. He didn't say "happy birthday" or do anything. We are, by mutual and explicitly discussed agreement, not hung up on which day something gets observed on — as the child of divorced parents, I grew up with time-shifted holidays; as a bartender, he's usually working on Valentine's Day, New Year's, etc.
Wednesday morning before I left for work I lost it at him; if it's "been so long since you used the rice cooker" that you don't remember how much to use, look it up! And if you ask me "one cup is one serving, right?" don't get huffy with me when I clarify that rice cooker cups are different from measuring cups. We also had the conversation about "it would have been nice if you'd remembered it was my birthday." That's also when we had the "Yeah, I'm done" conversation. That evening, he gave me a copy of the Crone Deck as a birthday present... unwrapped. That's also when I realized that in the process of cleaning out the freezer, he'd thrown out all the curry leaves that I had painstakingly vacuum sealed in little five- to six-leaf packets. Not freezer-burned or otherwise visually damaged, for the record.
Today, he texted me a link that was supposed to go to matinee showtimes for Magic Mike XXL, which I'd said I wanted to see this weekend. Link didn't work and he didn't send a working one.
Steps forward, steps back, the occasional bucket of cold water in the face.
I am so tired.
posted by Lexica at 9:27 PM on July 23, 2015 [49 favorites]
At work, there's a committee whose chair rotates annually. Another analyst in our department, who got tapped to provide admin and logistical support this year, came to me a few weeks ago. "Hey, do you have a list of all the committee members? NewChair asked me to get that."
"Uh..." I said, "isn't that the kind of thing that OldChair should have passed along in the transfer process? No, I don't. Sorry." I'm pretty sure, based on overheard conversations later, that she asked another woman in our department (who's our walking institutional knowledge; q.v. problems listed above with being the one in that role) who helped her get the information.
The committee had a conference call this morning, which was marked by NewChair being unable to log into the webinar provider as chair (he didn't know the code) and being unable to advance the slides in his presentation himself (because he hadn't visited the "test your computer" link ahead of time) so the other analyst had to sit waiting for "next slide, please" the entire call.
I talked with her afterwards, and am pushing for the two of us to develop a documented transition process for when the chair rotates: here is the list of members, here are the necessary logins and passcodes, here's what you need to do before the first conference call, etc. If I look at it as "this is like so much around here, an inadequately developed and documented process" I might feel a bit less annoyed.
At home... over brunch on Sunday I mentioned this thread to my husband and told him that it was important to me that he read it. I could tell he didn't read it that day.
Monday, he did make the jumbo batch of chana dal I asked him to make, but because he didn't think to set the rice cooker and it would have been 9pm before we would have eaten, we ordered a pizza.
Tuesday morning at 10:20, he texted me: "Finished the emotional labor thread." At 12:20 he texted me again, this time with a photo of the now cleared-out and organized freezer, which had been utter chaos when I left for work.
Tuesday was my birthday. He didn't say "happy birthday" or do anything. We are, by mutual and explicitly discussed agreement, not hung up on which day something gets observed on — as the child of divorced parents, I grew up with time-shifted holidays; as a bartender, he's usually working on Valentine's Day, New Year's, etc.
Wednesday morning before I left for work I lost it at him; if it's "been so long since you used the rice cooker" that you don't remember how much to use, look it up! And if you ask me "one cup is one serving, right?" don't get huffy with me when I clarify that rice cooker cups are different from measuring cups. We also had the conversation about "it would have been nice if you'd remembered it was my birthday." That's also when we had the "Yeah, I'm done" conversation. That evening, he gave me a copy of the Crone Deck as a birthday present... unwrapped. That's also when I realized that in the process of cleaning out the freezer, he'd thrown out all the curry leaves that I had painstakingly vacuum sealed in little five- to six-leaf packets. Not freezer-burned or otherwise visually damaged, for the record.
Today, he texted me a link that was supposed to go to matinee showtimes for Magic Mike XXL, which I'd said I wanted to see this weekend. Link didn't work and he didn't send a working one.
Steps forward, steps back, the occasional bucket of cold water in the face.
I am so tired.
posted by Lexica at 9:27 PM on July 23, 2015 [49 favorites]
I have very little free time to read MeFi these days. But yesterday, when I saw this incredible thread, I knew I had to set aside my other responsibilities. I spent the entire day voraciously devouring all the comments in one greedy gulp. From breakfast until bedtime. It was so compelling that I didn't do anything else. I even made myself quick microwave meals just so I could get back to the computer as soon as possible to keep reading (and favouriting) MORE MORE MORE. I kept thinking: It's another thread where women tell their stories, like the "Hi, whatcha reading?" thread! Yes! I love MetaFilter!
The insights from this thread, and the stories you all have told so candidly...they have changed me. In a way I have longed for so deeply, for so many years, but was never able to achieve on my own. And while my heart feels heavy at how little things have changed for women in the emotional labour department despite all the work done by our feminist foremothers and the consciousness-raising groups of the 1970s, I feel like I have crossed some kind of threshold of liberation in my own life because of this thread, and FINALLY there will be no going back this time. I know it. I can feel it in my bones.
Not long ago I wrote this in my personal journal:
I'm 47 years old, and I've never felt this way before. Not for this reason, at least. It is glorious!
Thank you. All of you. I love MetaFilter.
I will have more to say in this beautiful thread, I think...but first, I must DANCE.
posted by velvet winter at 9:30 PM on July 23, 2015 [109 favorites]
The insights from this thread, and the stories you all have told so candidly...they have changed me. In a way I have longed for so deeply, for so many years, but was never able to achieve on my own. And while my heart feels heavy at how little things have changed for women in the emotional labour department despite all the work done by our feminist foremothers and the consciousness-raising groups of the 1970s, I feel like I have crossed some kind of threshold of liberation in my own life because of this thread, and FINALLY there will be no going back this time. I know it. I can feel it in my bones.
Not long ago I wrote this in my personal journal:
I can't do this anymore. I can't take being dragged through the emotional wringer anymore because men just can't be bothered to meet me halfway. I am done with dating men, even if it means I must go to my grave without ever having partnered sex again. (And although I'm bi, I can barely even remember the last time I felt genuinely attracted to a woman.) I will probably never marry again. I'm just...done. Done with a capital "D". Our toxic patriarchal culture just doesn't equip men to be what I need emotionally, and I've lost all hope that I'll ever find a compatible man who makes being in a relationship seem more attractive than being single. I cherish my solitude anyway, and I really have no reason to settle. So I hereby declare myself "married" to my creative life.Today, my dear fellow MeFites, after reading this thread, I feel free. Liberated. That journal entry - there's still a sense of resignation in it. But that's gone now. The last remaining emotional thread connecting me to the hope that I'll find a man someday is now gone, and this thread catalysed the process of emotional alchemy that did the trick. But I'm not feeling sorrow, or resignation, or frustration, or anger, or anything like that. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am feeling JOY. Delight. I am dancing around the room, as if I'm in love! But what I'm in love with - genuinely! - is MY OWN LIFE. My dreams. My plans. My creative pursuits. The richness that I find in solitude. The fact that I don't have children, and am healthy enough to live alone. The way I've decorated my humble hermitage exactly as I wish to - in the ways that nourish my soul - without having to consider anyone else. The fact that I know who I am, and who I am not. All of that, and more. So much more.
I'd love to have a committed helpmate in my day-to-day life, though - someone I could trust to take care of me and pick up the slack for me if I needed it, and who trusts me to do the same for them in return. But it's clear that this isn't going to come about through romance and dating men. Hmmm...I know a couple of women who are Pagan polytheist nuns, married to their respective gods, who live together as platonic life mates. I wonder if I could ever find another Pagan nun who was that compatible with me?
I'm 47 years old, and I've never felt this way before. Not for this reason, at least. It is glorious!
Thank you. All of you. I love MetaFilter.
I will have more to say in this beautiful thread, I think...but first, I must DANCE.
posted by velvet winter at 9:30 PM on July 23, 2015 [109 favorites]
And women have more reason to have a mid-life crisis, in these terms! My own mother had one, and it led to the divorce of my parents (which, sadly, she later regretted) and maybe if it were acknowledged that women are not de facto emotional dumping grounds and need to work through these mid-life things (and NOT just menopause) the same as men do, then she would have been able to acknowledge her feelings and make choices that more closely adhered to what she needed. Maybe what happened needed to happen, but she had very little language for what she was going through. A song would come on the radio and she'd say "that's it!! that's how I feel!" but she had nowhere else to turn, really.
From what I remember, Gail Sheehy's Passages: Predictable Crises of Adult Life does talk about this, for both men and women. I'm going to copy-and-paste from my comments in a previous thread on midlife crises:
From what I remember, Gail Sheehy's Passages: Predictable Crises of Adult Life does talk about this, for both men and women. I'm going to copy-and-paste from my comments in a previous thread on midlife crises:
She pretty much said (correcting for the heteronormative biases during which she was writing) that people who have focused heavily on their intellectual/professional development during their 20s and 30s tend to wake up in their 40s and 50s to the importance of relationships, and people who have focused heavily on relationships during their 20s and 30s tend to wake up in their 40s or 50s to the importance of intellectual/professional engagement. Her idea was that what we call "midlife crises" are really just a recalibrating of priorities in order to bring people more into balance, where family and career are equally important and engaging.and
Sheehy posited those starting points as gendered, and I think in a lot of ways they remain so, though do more to behavior than biology. People who overly focus on career are going to hit a point where they realize they've neglected intimate relationships. People who overly focus on intimate relationships are going to hit a point where they realize they've neglected their professional or intellectual development. I think it's a productive "crisis" that causes people to realize they need more balance.
Sheehy basically said that if you've been ignoring your family in order to be a provider, you're going to end up divorced because your partner and kids are alienated from you, which will kick you into the realization that your partner and kids are important to you; and that if you've been devoting yourself to your partner and kids to the exclusion of developing yourself individually, you're going to end up divorced because you're going to get so resentful of your partner's independence that you're going to rebel against the constraints to which you've become accustomed.posted by jaguar at 10:07 PM on July 23, 2015 [27 favorites]
Her suggestion for avoiding divorce was to work toward balancing relationships with career from the beginning.
That's an oversimplification, of course, but I appreciate the push toward balance. Anyone who is out of balance, in whatever direction, is going to crash eventually, and it's helpful to look at what any focused activity is leaving out and how that imbalance is warping one's life.
holy crap, velvet winter. that was beautiful.
posted by palomar at 10:10 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by palomar at 10:10 PM on July 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
stoneweaver pretty much summed up my feelings about the word "venting" as used in the context of what's going on in this thread. Calling it venting trivialises the way people are just offering up huge pieces of their souls. I have made keeping up with this thread a priority this week, because I don't want to let anybody's pain go unwitnessed, even if I can't possibly respond to each individual story. Our feelings and struggles matter, and this work we're being largely unassisted with and uncompensated for is the fucking glue that holds society together, and coming together to talk about it is something that rarely happens for the vast majority of us. I can hardly believe this thread exists, that it's gone so well, with so few derails, with no acrimonious MeTa reacting to it. I am not exaggerating when I say it feels miraculous.
posted by skybluepink at 12:34 AM on July 24, 2015 [48 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 12:34 AM on July 24, 2015 [48 favorites]
.but first, I must DANCE
Forget bronzing the thread, lets just dip it in acrylic and hang it from our ceilings...
posted by infini at 1:20 AM on July 24, 2015
Forget bronzing the thread, lets just dip it in acrylic and hang it from our ceilings...
posted by infini at 1:20 AM on July 24, 2015
Just because I'm too inarticulate to share on here the influence of this thread, doesn't mean there hasn't been any...
posted by infini at 1:22 AM on July 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by infini at 1:22 AM on July 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
This thread has been indescribably valuable to my emotional outlook right now as well, not to mention articulating several things that I've not been able to name very well. And I think in combination with other things, this thread has also made another friend of mine join up, so hooray for the anti-boyzone exodus of 2015.
posted by cendawanita at 1:37 AM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:37 AM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
i've often wished we had a model for relationships where cohabiting wasn't some sort of assumed step, and that going from cohabiting to living alone wasn't seen as some sort of death knell for the relationship. i feel super lucky that i actually like living with my partner, but that feels like a one in a million chance. i guess it gets more complicated with kids but for all the childfree couples, i'm surprised more don't live separately.
Yes! Totally! I posted a comment on the green recently about how many people see this as a train track. Like, if you aren't going down the linear track then you've derailed and the relationship train is destroyed and on fire.
There's some real deep The Rules/The Game stuff going on here where quite a few people think that if X time has gone by and you haven't moved in together, then the relationship "isn't serious" and is "stagnating".
I actually almost had a good relationship end because i had a gap between living situations, crashed at their place for a month and a half, and then when my new plan fell through but i had another one lined up within a couple days it turned in to a whole "well you can't just move in and then move out NO ONE does that!".
We still live together, and stuff is p good, but that smarted at the time and i hadn't really wrapped my brain around that being A Thing yet and couldn't really explain why it bugged me eloquently. I knew enough to know that was a Rule, but not enough to explain why it seemed like a stupid arbitrary rule, if that makes any sense.
posted by emptythought at 1:42 AM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yes! Totally! I posted a comment on the green recently about how many people see this as a train track. Like, if you aren't going down the linear track then you've derailed and the relationship train is destroyed and on fire.
There's some real deep The Rules/The Game stuff going on here where quite a few people think that if X time has gone by and you haven't moved in together, then the relationship "isn't serious" and is "stagnating".
I actually almost had a good relationship end because i had a gap between living situations, crashed at their place for a month and a half, and then when my new plan fell through but i had another one lined up within a couple days it turned in to a whole "well you can't just move in and then move out NO ONE does that!".
We still live together, and stuff is p good, but that smarted at the time and i hadn't really wrapped my brain around that being A Thing yet and couldn't really explain why it bugged me eloquently. I knew enough to know that was a Rule, but not enough to explain why it seemed like a stupid arbitrary rule, if that makes any sense.
posted by emptythought at 1:42 AM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
The relationship escalator! Introduced to me by my last therapist and exactly encapsulates the thing that grates on me. I love living alone, I've tried co-habiting, it would take a miracle to make me do it again. I've no interest whatsoever in ever being married and never have done. But have people I've dated understood that those things aren't anything about them or the relationship or my level of commitment? Nope, must be half-arsed, couldn't possibly be the result of actually thinking about this stuff.
(This feels like a slight derail, sorry if it is, but the model is so great and I wish more people knew about it.)
posted by theseldomseenkid at 4:12 AM on July 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
(This feels like a slight derail, sorry if it is, but the model is so great and I wish more people knew about it.)
posted by theseldomseenkid at 4:12 AM on July 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
One of the (oh god so many) positive outcomes of this thread for me is that by having a label for these tasks actually makes them easier to do (and feel good about) in some cases. Don't get me wrong — like many others here, I have my own share of the justified rage that comes along with the new dawning. But I also can, say, look at my lovely coworkers and offer them something small to help them out, and reflect on that in ways that I couldn't before. Some now tangible piece of emotional labour that is A) easy for me to do (because it's natural and I've been doing it forever), B) identifiable and therefore less abstract, distinct from other small parts of the daily work I do, and C) is appreciated, implicitly or otherwise (note: this is part of why they're my lovely coworkers, and not … the other ones).
I feel like I wield newfound power in better knowing what it is I do in my day to day, and with that knowledge I can more appropriately choose when to lend my energies toward those tasks. Or not. Turns out, having that decision point really, really matters to me. Without everybody's contributions to this excellent thread, I wouldn't have even known it existed.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:44 AM on July 24, 2015 [57 favorites]
I feel like I wield newfound power in better knowing what it is I do in my day to day, and with that knowledge I can more appropriately choose when to lend my energies toward those tasks. Or not. Turns out, having that decision point really, really matters to me. Without everybody's contributions to this excellent thread, I wouldn't have even known it existed.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:44 AM on July 24, 2015 [57 favorites]
with that knowledge I can more appropriately choose when to lend my energies toward those tasks
I feel exactly this. Now I have words for it I can be aware of what it is and choose whether or not to carry out these tasks willingly, because I want to and it gives me pleasure, and not because I have to because of some notion of appropriate womanhood. It's incredibly freeing.
posted by billiebee at 5:00 AM on July 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
I feel exactly this. Now I have words for it I can be aware of what it is and choose whether or not to carry out these tasks willingly, because I want to and it gives me pleasure, and not because I have to because of some notion of appropriate womanhood. It's incredibly freeing.
posted by billiebee at 5:00 AM on July 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
I've barely done any work this week because of inhaling this thread and internalising it and having it change my life in ways I am so grateful for.
I sent it to a former coworker of mine, who called me yesterday because she's come back from secondment from dream!job to the old job we used to do together, which is one of those jobs that used to be great partly because we had this amazing boss who did all this extra emotional labour protecting her overworked, underpaid and underappreciated staff from being shat on even more.
Once she left (burned out on the severe amount of emotional stress and the fact she couldn't do her own job anymore without working 14 hour days) she was replaced by a man so inept at the skills of management that he can't even speak half the time, he just nods, and ignores what you say, and refuses to do the things that are important for reasons he can't even vocalise but that are essentially 'I don't think they are important'.
Case in point, he won't book staff time. Part of the company's slow descent into destruction, lower grade staff weren't allowed to manage their time anymore, it had to be formally booked. We were not allowed to book our time, weren't given access to be able to do it.
Useless manager was project manager on all my projects, and wouldn't book my time, even when I asked him, even when the head of HR asked him, even when the head of the company asked him. This was a problem, because other people would book my seemingly 'free' time, and then I would be tasked to either do both sets of work or try and find out how to fix it.
The 'solution' though was for the head of the company to turn around and tell me that it was actually my responsibility to book my time. Because there was 'no point' trying to talk Useless Manager into doing things, because 'he might leave'.
There were similar instances of the male ego being protected, promoted and coddled by management, including protection of bullies, sexual harassers and people who stole other people's work, because it was either 'too hard to deal with' or 'not a big deal'.
I ended up quitting over this (and a criminal act the company was doing), but when my friend rang me yesterday to get support over how Useless Manager was once again running a project into the ground, after earlier this week having to ask me, someone who left 8 months ago, to volunteer my time to answer a simple question about a project that was thoroughly documented on behalf of another man who could never find his ass with a map yet was considered 'management material', I just told her to quit, and sent her this thread. Because fuck coddling the male ego, and it is not my responsibility to shoulder the emotional fallout of my former employer being awful anymore.
posted by litereally at 5:21 AM on July 24, 2015 [20 favorites]
I sent it to a former coworker of mine, who called me yesterday because she's come back from secondment from dream!job to the old job we used to do together, which is one of those jobs that used to be great partly because we had this amazing boss who did all this extra emotional labour protecting her overworked, underpaid and underappreciated staff from being shat on even more.
Once she left (burned out on the severe amount of emotional stress and the fact she couldn't do her own job anymore without working 14 hour days) she was replaced by a man so inept at the skills of management that he can't even speak half the time, he just nods, and ignores what you say, and refuses to do the things that are important for reasons he can't even vocalise but that are essentially 'I don't think they are important'.
Case in point, he won't book staff time. Part of the company's slow descent into destruction, lower grade staff weren't allowed to manage their time anymore, it had to be formally booked. We were not allowed to book our time, weren't given access to be able to do it.
Useless manager was project manager on all my projects, and wouldn't book my time, even when I asked him, even when the head of HR asked him, even when the head of the company asked him. This was a problem, because other people would book my seemingly 'free' time, and then I would be tasked to either do both sets of work or try and find out how to fix it.
The 'solution' though was for the head of the company to turn around and tell me that it was actually my responsibility to book my time. Because there was 'no point' trying to talk Useless Manager into doing things, because 'he might leave'.
There were similar instances of the male ego being protected, promoted and coddled by management, including protection of bullies, sexual harassers and people who stole other people's work, because it was either 'too hard to deal with' or 'not a big deal'.
I ended up quitting over this (and a criminal act the company was doing), but when my friend rang me yesterday to get support over how Useless Manager was once again running a project into the ground, after earlier this week having to ask me, someone who left 8 months ago, to volunteer my time to answer a simple question about a project that was thoroughly documented on behalf of another man who could never find his ass with a map yet was considered 'management material', I just told her to quit, and sent her this thread. Because fuck coddling the male ego, and it is not my responsibility to shoulder the emotional fallout of my former employer being awful anymore.
posted by litereally at 5:21 AM on July 24, 2015 [20 favorites]
We need to turn this thread into a downloadable book. Then i will find a way to add my perspective. There are lessons here, which can easily be clustered into public/private/personal/professional and whatnot. There;s a gold mine here of "empowerment" that's self defined and strategic (see iamkimiam's note on it now being a clear decision and choice) and there's so much that can be visualized and described.
*gargles inarticulately and waves hands*
posted by infini at 5:51 AM on July 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
*gargles inarticulately and waves hands*
posted by infini at 5:51 AM on July 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
One of the things I love about what I do is that, as a primatologist working closely with a bunch of Ivorians, I get to be a bit of a cultural anthropologist and spend time being part of a totally different set of cultures. Part of what makes me awesome at what I do is that I am friendly, extroverted, and genuinely interested in people - and so, when I ask les vieux if they could speak against poaching, or suggest that the people using Diana monkey skins as part of their masques stop using them, I have these relationships built up and - even though I'm a 27 year old white lady - people know me and know I respect them and their lives and consider what I am asking.
To take part in this, I must do the emotional labor of joining a community. I learn people's names. I learn French. I learn "hello" and "good bye" and "thank you" and "respected elder" in local languages. I remember whose kid is taking the final exams to get into university. I celebrate Ivorian independence day. I dance at parties. I buy a chicken for dinner when Cote d'Ivoire qualifies for the World Cup. I smile. I got to funerals. I sacrifice my time, my money, sometimes my dignity (dancing is harder than it looks!). But it is worth it in the end, and not just because it makes my work of studying and conserving primates easier, but also because at the last funeral I went to, someone introduced me as his daughter. I have Oubi and Dao names. I have 5 villages worth of Mamans. Women smile at me and let me play with their babies.
I consider this work just as important as my dissertation research because it ensures the viability of my longterm research program. People are sad that I leave in a month, and anxious to know when I plan to come back. Being part of this community is going to keep me active in my career at the same time as I gain all this other family and mushy stuff :-) I'm my advisor's representative here (he started the project), and believe me, I've done more in the past two years of my dissertation research to integrate us into the local community - and keep that integration friendly and meaningful - than has been accomplished since at least 2000.
But when I got back from last year, my advisor laughed and said I must have tamed them all with my feminine wiles - he wasn't sure what I did, but the Ivorians are all in love with me. It is all because I am a sexy white lady. Not the hours and hours (and dollars and dollars) I poured into these communities to ensure the longterm survival and fluorishing of this project. The fact that I have breasts and a lovely smile and white skin!
I've got a word document open on this computer where I am starting to enumerate the different emotional labors I've done over the past two years, and when I get back to school, we are going to sit down and have a conversation about how fieldwork went, and I am going to point out the sorts of things that everyone involved with the project should be doing to keep things working.
(I've been without internet since I last posted, and have had this thread open, just reading and reabsorbing stories. I plan to do the same thing until the next time I'm in town with the internet. Thank you.)
posted by ChuraChura at 5:54 AM on July 24, 2015 [202 favorites]
To take part in this, I must do the emotional labor of joining a community. I learn people's names. I learn French. I learn "hello" and "good bye" and "thank you" and "respected elder" in local languages. I remember whose kid is taking the final exams to get into university. I celebrate Ivorian independence day. I dance at parties. I buy a chicken for dinner when Cote d'Ivoire qualifies for the World Cup. I smile. I got to funerals. I sacrifice my time, my money, sometimes my dignity (dancing is harder than it looks!). But it is worth it in the end, and not just because it makes my work of studying and conserving primates easier, but also because at the last funeral I went to, someone introduced me as his daughter. I have Oubi and Dao names. I have 5 villages worth of Mamans. Women smile at me and let me play with their babies.
I consider this work just as important as my dissertation research because it ensures the viability of my longterm research program. People are sad that I leave in a month, and anxious to know when I plan to come back. Being part of this community is going to keep me active in my career at the same time as I gain all this other family and mushy stuff :-) I'm my advisor's representative here (he started the project), and believe me, I've done more in the past two years of my dissertation research to integrate us into the local community - and keep that integration friendly and meaningful - than has been accomplished since at least 2000.
But when I got back from last year, my advisor laughed and said I must have tamed them all with my feminine wiles - he wasn't sure what I did, but the Ivorians are all in love with me. It is all because I am a sexy white lady. Not the hours and hours (and dollars and dollars) I poured into these communities to ensure the longterm survival and fluorishing of this project. The fact that I have breasts and a lovely smile and white skin!
I've got a word document open on this computer where I am starting to enumerate the different emotional labors I've done over the past two years, and when I get back to school, we are going to sit down and have a conversation about how fieldwork went, and I am going to point out the sorts of things that everyone involved with the project should be doing to keep things working.
(I've been without internet since I last posted, and have had this thread open, just reading and reabsorbing stories. I plan to do the same thing until the next time I'm in town with the internet. Thank you.)
posted by ChuraChura at 5:54 AM on July 24, 2015 [202 favorites]
This morning as I staggered up the road to the workplace I was singing that "you were always on my mind" song.
Maybe I-I-I didn't hold you... all the lonely lonely times
Little things I should have said and done
I just never took the time
You were always on my miiiiiind
You were alwaaays on my mind
Soops poignant. How many gajillions of dollars did how many record company execs collect over how many years from Elvis and Willie Nelson and whoever all crooning what amounts to "I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't"?
Last night as I was staggering down the road from the workplace it was,
ALL I WANTED WAS A PEPSI
AND SHE WOULDN'T GIVE IT TO ME
JUST ONE PEPSI
AND SHE WOULDN'T GIVE IT TO ME
The a.m. soundtrack and the p.m. soundtrack are markedly different.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:53 AM on July 24, 2015 [26 favorites]
Maybe I-I-I didn't hold you... all the lonely lonely times
Little things I should have said and done
I just never took the time
You were always on my miiiiiind
You were alwaaays on my mind
Soops poignant. How many gajillions of dollars did how many record company execs collect over how many years from Elvis and Willie Nelson and whoever all crooning what amounts to "I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't"?
Last night as I was staggering down the road from the workplace it was,
ALL I WANTED WAS A PEPSI
AND SHE WOULDN'T GIVE IT TO ME
JUST ONE PEPSI
AND SHE WOULDN'T GIVE IT TO ME
The a.m. soundtrack and the p.m. soundtrack are markedly different.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:53 AM on July 24, 2015 [26 favorites]
> But when I got back from last year, my advisor laughed and said I must have tamed them all with my feminine wiles - he wasn't sure what I did, but the Ivorians are all in love with me. It is all because I am a sexy white lady. Not the hours and hours (and dollars and dollars) I poured into these communities to ensure the longterm survival and fluorishing of this project. The fact that I have breasts and a lovely smile and white skin!
aargh this literally had me grinding my teeth and i can no longer find the shift key i don't know how people put up with this shit
posted by languagehat at 8:09 AM on July 24, 2015 [30 favorites]
aargh this literally had me grinding my teeth and i can no longer find the shift key i don't know how people put up with this shit
posted by languagehat at 8:09 AM on July 24, 2015 [30 favorites]
I was just waiting for someone to come in and say we were venting, gossiping, bitching, whatever. And then it happened! So predictable. Because of what I said above-- gossip is unseemly in a woman! Even when it has the goal of consciousness-raising and allowing her to feel whole and in control of her own life again. You know, when oppressed people talk about their oppression and ways they can mitigate damage and preserve their integrity... gossip. To a man I guess it's just, "Why are women venting about this? Men do it too! Sometimes! Not all the time, because it's too hard, and what do you expect, I have a job, and learning is confusing, but... "
Like dude, go have your own consciousness-raising session with other guys about how hard it is to date women who think emotional and domestic labor should be distributed equally. Or, once you see who the guys who want to bitch about that are... don't.
posted by easter queen at 8:16 AM on July 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
Like dude, go have your own consciousness-raising session with other guys about how hard it is to date women who think emotional and domestic labor should be distributed equally. Or, once you see who the guys who want to bitch about that are... don't.
posted by easter queen at 8:16 AM on July 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
Sudden flashback to a convo I had with a dude a while back:
Me: You should just notice that you're tripping over your own shoes every time you come in, and put your shoes away!
Him: If I noticed that, I'd have to do something about it. I'd never get anything done that way!
Me: ...
posted by XtinaS at 8:17 AM on July 24, 2015 [40 favorites]
Me: You should just notice that you're tripping over your own shoes every time you come in, and put your shoes away!
Him: If I noticed that, I'd have to do something about it. I'd never get anything done that way!
Me: ...
posted by XtinaS at 8:17 AM on July 24, 2015 [40 favorites]
This morning as I staggered up the road to the workplace I was singing that "you were always on my mind" song.
So, weirdly enough, your comment got me off my duff to finally record a cover of Always On My Mind, even as it got me sort of more actively side-eyeing the presumptuous of the premise and presentation of the lyrics.
posted by cortex at 8:27 AM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
So, weirdly enough, your comment got me off my duff to finally record a cover of Always On My Mind, even as it got me sort of more actively side-eyeing the presumptuous of the premise and presentation of the lyrics.
posted by cortex at 8:27 AM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Him: If I noticed that, I'd have to do something about it. I'd never get anything done that way!
Yeah, without sounding like I'm talking about mammoth hunting, (eek), my takeaway seems to be that men are socialized to mono focus on the one task they deem important, and feel virtuous if they evade tasks that are coded to them as less important. And there are some lingering traces of "Work day's over; I'm off duty; that's what my dad did" still out there in the zeitgeist.
posted by puddledork at 8:30 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, without sounding like I'm talking about mammoth hunting, (eek), my takeaway seems to be that men are socialized to mono focus on the one task they deem important, and feel virtuous if they evade tasks that are coded to them as less important. And there are some lingering traces of "Work day's over; I'm off duty; that's what my dad did" still out there in the zeitgeist.
posted by puddledork at 8:30 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
You know, I've also noticed something about the way men and women comment in not-as-well moderated feminism threads on Metafilter in the past. When a thread starts up and it's quite sexist, women will come in and talk about how ridiculous it is, how it's offensive, they'll quote each other and agree with each other's contributions and build on them and try to form a coherent, systematic philosophy of the thread together in order to suss out why it's problematic.
When a feminism thread pops up, men just come in, yell at/argue with women and eventually shit themselves or just disappear. There's no sense of "hey other men, this feminism stuff is ridiculous, let's build a coherent philosophy of why it's so troublesome." Because that philosophy... is MRA garbage. It's basically indefensible, and no one wants to be that person, but the arguments go nowhere but in that direction. Anti-feminism is always about "well that's true, BUT [subtle way in which I'm not responsible for it]" or "ok, MRA stuff is wrong, but [it's actually true we just can't say so out loud]" and it never goes anywhere. There's also none of the collaboration/emotional labor around not only arguing with what they perceive as wrong but also discussing amongst themselves why they think it's wrong. Every now and then someone will drop a short, essentially sexist comment that will get like 35+ favorites from the silenced men, but that's the extent of the coalition-building.
And then men ask feminists, but why don't you care MORE about men's issues? And feminists say, dude, I agree with you that there are men's issues, why don't you start your own discussion group/book club/whatever? ... and that never happens, because women are supposed to do that for them. They're the activists! They're the ones that care so much!
I love men, and I know a lot of them that have a lot to say and a lot to work out about how to be a good person in a patriarchal culture. Men could do more emotional labor around explicating this and working it out without needing the direct aid of feminists. And then they could take part in the discussion, instead of feeling vaguely slighted and unclear about how to express their own frustrations. But saying that, I feel that it's both essential and also too much to ask.
posted by easter queen at 8:30 AM on July 24, 2015 [85 favorites]
When a feminism thread pops up, men just come in, yell at/argue with women and eventually shit themselves or just disappear. There's no sense of "hey other men, this feminism stuff is ridiculous, let's build a coherent philosophy of why it's so troublesome." Because that philosophy... is MRA garbage. It's basically indefensible, and no one wants to be that person, but the arguments go nowhere but in that direction. Anti-feminism is always about "well that's true, BUT [subtle way in which I'm not responsible for it]" or "ok, MRA stuff is wrong, but [it's actually true we just can't say so out loud]" and it never goes anywhere. There's also none of the collaboration/emotional labor around not only arguing with what they perceive as wrong but also discussing amongst themselves why they think it's wrong. Every now and then someone will drop a short, essentially sexist comment that will get like 35+ favorites from the silenced men, but that's the extent of the coalition-building.
And then men ask feminists, but why don't you care MORE about men's issues? And feminists say, dude, I agree with you that there are men's issues, why don't you start your own discussion group/book club/whatever? ... and that never happens, because women are supposed to do that for them. They're the activists! They're the ones that care so much!
I love men, and I know a lot of them that have a lot to say and a lot to work out about how to be a good person in a patriarchal culture. Men could do more emotional labor around explicating this and working it out without needing the direct aid of feminists. And then they could take part in the discussion, instead of feeling vaguely slighted and unclear about how to express their own frustrations. But saying that, I feel that it's both essential and also too much to ask.
posted by easter queen at 8:30 AM on July 24, 2015 [85 favorites]
my takeaway seems to be that men are socialized to mono focus on the one task they deem important, and feel virtuous if they evade tasks that are coded to them as less important. And there are some lingering traces of "Work day's over; I'm off duty; that's what my dad did" still out there in the zeitgeist.
So much this. My husband comes off, and it's a trail of his stuff from the front door to wherever he ends up. He knows it bugs me, mostly because it takes less than five minutes to put your shit away but it's always "I'll get around to it; don't worry." It definitely feels like the whole "well, I worked all day and now I don't have to do anything else because whatever else there is isn't real work or important" dealie. Hi, I work too, and yet I do not have this problem.
posted by Kitteh at 8:34 AM on July 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
So much this. My husband comes off, and it's a trail of his stuff from the front door to wherever he ends up. He knows it bugs me, mostly because it takes less than five minutes to put your shit away but it's always "I'll get around to it; don't worry." It definitely feels like the whole "well, I worked all day and now I don't have to do anything else because whatever else there is isn't real work or important" dealie. Hi, I work too, and yet I do not have this problem.
posted by Kitteh at 8:34 AM on July 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
The phone conversation in this Out There comic is beautifully illustrative of some of the stuff talked about in this thread. ("I'm not bending over backwards just to make it easier for idiots": classic.)
posted by languagehat at 8:38 AM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 8:38 AM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
my takeaway seems to be that men are socialized to mono focus on the one task they deem important
This has been my experience. My example: when I need to get groceries, I do this type of mental checklist first:
"I know we're low on apples and cheese sticks and Thing 2 has been getting into granola. And pasta for the party next weekend and avocados to ripen by Sunday. Definitely new toothpaste for Thing 3. Oh and right; I should go early so I can get the oil changed before the line gets too long but Thing 1 has SAT prep at 9 and Thing 2 has a shoot at 11 so I can go in between dropping off Things 1 and 2. Where's the coupon for oil changes and the bags? Oh, I should drop off that Goodwill bag too."
But all of the men in my life would wander around the kitchen, open and close drawers and cabinets and the refrigerator, then ask when I was going shopping. If my answer wasn't soon enough for them, they'd go to the store, get enough for the day and leave all the groceries in the car while they made themselves a sandwich.
And this: Years ago after a hurricane, my entire yard was destroyed: tree limbs everywhere and incredible wreckage. My son and I got out there and started dragging bits into a pile, raking and so on. My ex-BF spent HOURS pruning a lilac shrub. That was all he did; he ignored the massive amounts of debris and hyper-focused on one stupid thing.
posted by kinetic at 9:00 AM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
This has been my experience. My example: when I need to get groceries, I do this type of mental checklist first:
"I know we're low on apples and cheese sticks and Thing 2 has been getting into granola. And pasta for the party next weekend and avocados to ripen by Sunday. Definitely new toothpaste for Thing 3. Oh and right; I should go early so I can get the oil changed before the line gets too long but Thing 1 has SAT prep at 9 and Thing 2 has a shoot at 11 so I can go in between dropping off Things 1 and 2. Where's the coupon for oil changes and the bags? Oh, I should drop off that Goodwill bag too."
But all of the men in my life would wander around the kitchen, open and close drawers and cabinets and the refrigerator, then ask when I was going shopping. If my answer wasn't soon enough for them, they'd go to the store, get enough for the day and leave all the groceries in the car while they made themselves a sandwich.
And this: Years ago after a hurricane, my entire yard was destroyed: tree limbs everywhere and incredible wreckage. My son and I got out there and started dragging bits into a pile, raking and so on. My ex-BF spent HOURS pruning a lilac shrub. That was all he did; he ignored the massive amounts of debris and hyper-focused on one stupid thing.
posted by kinetic at 9:00 AM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
> When a feminism thread pops up, men just come in, yell at/argue with women and eventually shit themselves or just disappear.
There was a meTa a few months ago (can't even remember the original topic now, but I think it was probably feminism-related) where someone, a man, made a comment about echo chambers and it finally, finally dawned on me that a lot of people (mostly men?) see some kinds of threads - like this one - as just an inconsequential nothing full of people nodding their heads at each other. Because no one is arguing on different "sides" it means everyone is in total agreement with everything and therefore it doesn't matter in the way that a thread full of "Yeah but"s and "Actually,"s and "Sarcastic dropping of refuting cite"s matters. That a conversation that spawns epiphanies, new strategies, opens windows, and allows for the sharing of experience is just an "echo chamber," see, and not important. I guess I'm glad to have had that cleared up, you know?
posted by rtha at 9:26 AM on July 24, 2015 [185 favorites]
There was a meTa a few months ago (can't even remember the original topic now, but I think it was probably feminism-related) where someone, a man, made a comment about echo chambers and it finally, finally dawned on me that a lot of people (mostly men?) see some kinds of threads - like this one - as just an inconsequential nothing full of people nodding their heads at each other. Because no one is arguing on different "sides" it means everyone is in total agreement with everything and therefore it doesn't matter in the way that a thread full of "Yeah but"s and "Actually,"s and "Sarcastic dropping of refuting cite"s matters. That a conversation that spawns epiphanies, new strategies, opens windows, and allows for the sharing of experience is just an "echo chamber," see, and not important. I guess I'm glad to have had that cleared up, you know?
posted by rtha at 9:26 AM on July 24, 2015 [185 favorites]
This the comment you meant, by chance? Because I didn't realize that at the time but.... wow, now that you say it, yeah.
Augh, though, that's so ridiculous that people think that! I always find I learn way more from people when there aren't defined sides, because those "sides" distort arguments and experiences as people try to "win" whatever argument is going on. In conversation where everyone is assumed to be on the same "side" but might not agree on every point, people seem to feel much more comfortable talking about their experiences in a framework I'm unlikely to have seen--and more to the point, I absorb way more of the information because I'm not paying attention to what's going on in my 'side.'
posted by sciatrix at 9:38 AM on July 24, 2015 [26 favorites]
Augh, though, that's so ridiculous that people think that! I always find I learn way more from people when there aren't defined sides, because those "sides" distort arguments and experiences as people try to "win" whatever argument is going on. In conversation where everyone is assumed to be on the same "side" but might not agree on every point, people seem to feel much more comfortable talking about their experiences in a framework I'm unlikely to have seen--and more to the point, I absorb way more of the information because I'm not paying attention to what's going on in my 'side.'
posted by sciatrix at 9:38 AM on July 24, 2015 [26 favorites]
I understand a whole lot of the internet now. Mind blown.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:49 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 9:49 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
A thing I keep thinking about is the ways that certain kinds of emotional labor are easy for one person and hard for another, and best practices for approaching that from either side. There are lots of things, like moving, that are super emotionally charged when you're looking at it from the inside, but is not nearly as mentally/emotionally taxing for the friends carrying boxes. Or when friends come over and snuggle with a newborn for an hour while the parents take a nap. I guess I'm getting at the fact that it's not the doing of the thing that's always hardest, so much as the ownership of the larger task. A lot of the "But I always do the thing you ask me to do" seems to stem from that; having to ask means being the owner of the task, and it's draining to maintain the mental matrix of prioritization.
(This message brought to you by flying halfway across the country with preschooler in tow to move St. Hubbins this summer, which a lot of people thought was a big deal, but which, as the person with absolutely zero ownership of the task, was just a fun weekend project of an excuse to visit.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 9:50 AM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
(This message brought to you by flying halfway across the country with preschooler in tow to move St. Hubbins this summer, which a lot of people thought was a big deal, but which, as the person with absolutely zero ownership of the task, was just a fun weekend project of an excuse to visit.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 9:50 AM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
Yep! What they don't seem to get is that threads like this have many points of view, whereas a disputatious thread has only two. That's why this one is so wonderful: it is packed full of "actually,"s but they're mostly "actually,"s aimed at revealing nuance and creating greater understanding, not toward one side losing and the other side winning.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:00 AM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 10:00 AM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
A lot of the "But I always do the thing you ask me to do" seems to stem from that; having to ask means being the owner of the task, and it's draining to maintain the mental matrix of prioritization.
In my house, we call this "having the Deal Token." I usually end up holding the Deal Token by default on most domestic activity/family/food/kid related things (HusbandT holds the Deal Token by default on budgetary/travel/organizing/laundry/housecleaning things, which is nice) but the framework exists for either of us to say "Hey, can you take the Deal Token on this specific task?" Having the Deal Token means that you're the project manager for this project, and that it's your job to either do it or see that it gets done. You can delegate out the wazoo -- you can delegate EVERY task if you want -- but seeing that it gets done is your responsibility.
posted by KathrynT at 10:06 AM on July 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
In my house, we call this "having the Deal Token." I usually end up holding the Deal Token by default on most domestic activity/family/food/kid related things (HusbandT holds the Deal Token by default on budgetary/travel/organizing/laundry/housecleaning things, which is nice) but the framework exists for either of us to say "Hey, can you take the Deal Token on this specific task?" Having the Deal Token means that you're the project manager for this project, and that it's your job to either do it or see that it gets done. You can delegate out the wazoo -- you can delegate EVERY task if you want -- but seeing that it gets done is your responsibility.
posted by KathrynT at 10:06 AM on July 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
Miko's comment in the tattoo Metatalk was the "echo chamber" one I thought of--it has stuck with me, too.
posted by almostmanda at 10:08 AM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 10:08 AM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
> This the comment you meant, by chance?
Ha. It could have been, but wasn't; it was this one, in the tramp stamp meTa.
I guess I'm glad if some people think threads like this are boring and just stay out of them, if the other option is for them to come in and want to "win" the "argument."
posted by rtha at 10:10 AM on July 24, 2015 [16 favorites]
Ha. It could have been, but wasn't; it was this one, in the tramp stamp meTa.
I guess I'm glad if some people think threads like this are boring and just stay out of them, if the other option is for them to come in and want to "win" the "argument."
posted by rtha at 10:10 AM on July 24, 2015 [16 favorites]
I guess I'm glad if some people think threads like this are boring and just stay out of them, if the other option is for them to come in and want to "win" the "argument."
aka #NotAllMen
posted by kinetic at 10:15 AM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
aka #NotAllMen
posted by kinetic at 10:15 AM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
This thread is amazing and an education even if you thought you already knew. (And I've made it through maybe 30% so far.) Thanks to everyone who took the time to share their experiences. It is immensely important and valuable. And appreciated.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:22 AM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:22 AM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Something I haven't seen upthread: when you try to get your partner to take on some of the emotional labor and it's a minefield of overreactions and hostility.
I'm thinking of when I've tried to get the men in my life to take on more of the emotional work. In my case, I needed the men to think more about me and my kids as part of their consciousness, not put themselves first constantly. I understood that I needed to ask for things, but in all of my relationships, it became exhausting because it was just one MORE thing to do.
And of course, I had to consider my phrasing; to ask nicely and make it seem like WOW you're doing me the biggest favor in the world if you can get the oil changed while you're out playing tennis.
It ended up with my feeling so much anger and resentment because Christ, isn't it enough that I'm already doing everything, and here I am having to talk to this guy like he's an overly-sensitive 3-year old ("Great job!" High 5!") but all I'm really thinking is, "Are you so fucking stupid and self-centered that you don't see the cat box is filthy, the dishwasher needs to be emptied, your dirty socks are all over the floor, you have 14 beer bottles sitting next to the sink, you drank all the milk 2 days ago and never bought more, there's been a load of your laundry in the washing machine for 3 days now getting moldy, the oil STILL needs to be changed, the lawn needs to be mowed, and you're telling me that you're going to go out now and smash some golf balls?"
posted by kinetic at 10:52 AM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
I'm thinking of when I've tried to get the men in my life to take on more of the emotional work. In my case, I needed the men to think more about me and my kids as part of their consciousness, not put themselves first constantly. I understood that I needed to ask for things, but in all of my relationships, it became exhausting because it was just one MORE thing to do.
And of course, I had to consider my phrasing; to ask nicely and make it seem like WOW you're doing me the biggest favor in the world if you can get the oil changed while you're out playing tennis.
It ended up with my feeling so much anger and resentment because Christ, isn't it enough that I'm already doing everything, and here I am having to talk to this guy like he's an overly-sensitive 3-year old ("Great job!" High 5!") but all I'm really thinking is, "Are you so fucking stupid and self-centered that you don't see the cat box is filthy, the dishwasher needs to be emptied, your dirty socks are all over the floor, you have 14 beer bottles sitting next to the sink, you drank all the milk 2 days ago and never bought more, there's been a load of your laundry in the washing machine for 3 days now getting moldy, the oil STILL needs to be changed, the lawn needs to be mowed, and you're telling me that you're going to go out now and smash some golf balls?"
posted by kinetic at 10:52 AM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
I tried to show my one-year-in BF this thread, saying how powerful it is to read. How it describes the way my marriage went/felt/became. He read for a few minutes and sighed "you know, I think misandry is growing" and went back to his breakfast. I started collapsing internally, like somewhere inside there was a metaphorical door swinging shut.
I persevered over breakfast (high fives, EL providers of the world!) to untangle this but he just said that Other Guys just don't get it. I still waited and listened, and then read out a few comments to him. No links with his own behaviours, even when gently directed to consider some of our own issues. There was instead cool withdrawal, nothing aggressive, but enough to make clear that the conversation was closed.
Then we drove three or four hours up to a city where his friends live, with whom we would be staying, with whom we would be dining, not having seen them for a year. He barely spoke to them and I felt myself deposited as an artefact at the table and pressed to On whilst he took out his phone and started texting his out-of-state friend. I was humorous and asked him to do that later and tried to engage him with his friends. He continued writing texts inviting responses, not 'I'm at dinner! Later dude!' whilst I'm trying to be nice, asking how they are, making connections things I've bothered to find out from FB. On the fifteenth minute I elbowed him under the table. He shrugged me away. Twenty minutes of this and I finally say 'are we eating dinner with these guys, or are we leaving so you can do this other thing?' No apology, just an an elaborate pout. This guy is 55 years old. Later, his pout continues. He withholds sex, he does the silent treatment. Next day, all day.
We sit at another restaurant last night and he gets out his phone. I stare into space and think about why I left my marriage, and where I am now. Is it better? Is it the same? Is it worse? He finally admits that he's mad because I called him out in front of his friends. I point out the gentle way I tried to get him to attend to his friends, and he says nothing except I 'should have sucked it up' (like I usually do). He apologises like a brat, 'I'm SORRY, all right' and I'm feeling all the possible doors to the Relationship building are fully automated and slamming together with loud clicks.
So what, a guy glued to his phone in a restaurant with his friends is a dumping offence? The sum total of a year of relationship? It's not the phone, it feels like I'm an annoying fly, a nag, if I don't pilot into his friendships and do his kin-keeping work, over and over. It feels like emotional labour, even though it also feels ridiculous to mumsily care, and argue, about 'phones at the table'.
...
The most resonant thing in this highly resonating thread is the stuff about guys doing a lot of pseudo emotional labour when they want to get a girlfriend, or get laid. Once there, fuck that shit. My last angry thought before sleep last night was a grimace over the idea that our conversation about emotional labour has given him a Good Thing ('I'm an emotional labourer ladeeez!') to put on his next dating profile page.
posted by honey-barbara at 11:36 AM on July 24, 2015 [147 favorites]
I persevered over breakfast (high fives, EL providers of the world!) to untangle this but he just said that Other Guys just don't get it. I still waited and listened, and then read out a few comments to him. No links with his own behaviours, even when gently directed to consider some of our own issues. There was instead cool withdrawal, nothing aggressive, but enough to make clear that the conversation was closed.
Then we drove three or four hours up to a city where his friends live, with whom we would be staying, with whom we would be dining, not having seen them for a year. He barely spoke to them and I felt myself deposited as an artefact at the table and pressed to On whilst he took out his phone and started texting his out-of-state friend. I was humorous and asked him to do that later and tried to engage him with his friends. He continued writing texts inviting responses, not 'I'm at dinner! Later dude!' whilst I'm trying to be nice, asking how they are, making connections things I've bothered to find out from FB. On the fifteenth minute I elbowed him under the table. He shrugged me away. Twenty minutes of this and I finally say 'are we eating dinner with these guys, or are we leaving so you can do this other thing?' No apology, just an an elaborate pout. This guy is 55 years old. Later, his pout continues. He withholds sex, he does the silent treatment. Next day, all day.
We sit at another restaurant last night and he gets out his phone. I stare into space and think about why I left my marriage, and where I am now. Is it better? Is it the same? Is it worse? He finally admits that he's mad because I called him out in front of his friends. I point out the gentle way I tried to get him to attend to his friends, and he says nothing except I 'should have sucked it up' (like I usually do). He apologises like a brat, 'I'm SORRY, all right' and I'm feeling all the possible doors to the Relationship building are fully automated and slamming together with loud clicks.
So what, a guy glued to his phone in a restaurant with his friends is a dumping offence? The sum total of a year of relationship? It's not the phone, it feels like I'm an annoying fly, a nag, if I don't pilot into his friendships and do his kin-keeping work, over and over. It feels like emotional labour, even though it also feels ridiculous to mumsily care, and argue, about 'phones at the table'.
...
The most resonant thing in this highly resonating thread is the stuff about guys doing a lot of pseudo emotional labour when they want to get a girlfriend, or get laid. Once there, fuck that shit. My last angry thought before sleep last night was a grimace over the idea that our conversation about emotional labour has given him a Good Thing ('I'm an emotional labourer ladeeez!') to put on his next dating profile page.
posted by honey-barbara at 11:36 AM on July 24, 2015 [147 favorites]
*sends honey-barbara first class tickets to Crone Island, where the dancing girls keep the barflies away, and a cold beer*
posted by infini at 11:41 AM on July 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by infini at 11:41 AM on July 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
OMG WILL THIS THREAD CLOSE IN A MONTH?
posted by infini at 11:41 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by infini at 11:41 AM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
My god, honey-barbara.
This thread is an invaluable tool for discerning who is actually going to be a long-term part of your life, and who can promptly be shown the door without any explanation owed.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:44 AM on July 24, 2015 [34 favorites]
This thread is an invaluable tool for discerning who is actually going to be a long-term part of your life, and who can promptly be shown the door without any explanation owed.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:44 AM on July 24, 2015 [34 favorites]
Talked to husband about thread last night.
Response: "I can't tell if you're criticizing me or complimenting me."
sad trombone.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:45 AM on July 24, 2015 [34 favorites]
Response: "I can't tell if you're criticizing me or complimenting me."
sad trombone.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:45 AM on July 24, 2015 [34 favorites]
It feels like emotional labour, even though it also feels ridiculous to mumsily care, and argue, about 'phones at the table'
Yes... this is one of the worst things, the pseudo-gaslighting thing where you're simultaneously aware the 1) It is ridiculous to argue about, say, texting during dinner with friends but also that 2) it is ridiculous because no adult should be doing this dumb, dumb thing! Do I want to argue about leaving shoes where people can trip on them? No I do not, I want people to not leave shoes where people can trip on them because it is rude and thoughtless and a child can figure out not to do this. And when I say, could you please not leave your shoes where people will trip on them?, I don't expect an argument because-- well, duh! Don't do that!
I mean what defense can you possibly have? "No, I NEED to leave them there." "No, that's too much thinking." "No, other people can step around them!" All possible arguments are infinitely dumb, so instead it becomes pouting and comforting them and telling them it's OK, because they can't just say "oh yes, sure, sorry about that" and they can't admit that they just want to say "NO. I'M LAZY. ME TARZAN."
posted by easter queen at 11:46 AM on July 24, 2015 [49 favorites]
Yes... this is one of the worst things, the pseudo-gaslighting thing where you're simultaneously aware the 1) It is ridiculous to argue about, say, texting during dinner with friends but also that 2) it is ridiculous because no adult should be doing this dumb, dumb thing! Do I want to argue about leaving shoes where people can trip on them? No I do not, I want people to not leave shoes where people can trip on them because it is rude and thoughtless and a child can figure out not to do this. And when I say, could you please not leave your shoes where people will trip on them?, I don't expect an argument because-- well, duh! Don't do that!
I mean what defense can you possibly have? "No, I NEED to leave them there." "No, that's too much thinking." "No, other people can step around them!" All possible arguments are infinitely dumb, so instead it becomes pouting and comforting them and telling them it's OK, because they can't just say "oh yes, sure, sorry about that" and they can't admit that they just want to say "NO. I'M LAZY. ME TARZAN."
posted by easter queen at 11:46 AM on July 24, 2015 [49 favorites]
I'm sorry honey-barbara, that is gutwrenching. I am certainly not telling you what to do, but for me, my threshold for a "dumping offense" is very, very low now that I realize I am perfectly happy being single. It's astonishing what I put up with because I felt it "wasn't bad enough to break up over."
I am simultaneously relieved that I am not trying to have a conversation about this thread with my ex, and sad that this thread didn't exist 10 years ago, when we'd only been together about 8 months.
posted by desjardins at 11:47 AM on July 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
I am simultaneously relieved that I am not trying to have a conversation about this thread with my ex, and sad that this thread didn't exist 10 years ago, when we'd only been together about 8 months.
posted by desjardins at 11:47 AM on July 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
No links with his own behaviours, even when gently directed to consider some of our own issues. There was instead cool withdrawal
I'd dump his ass for this, all by itself. Complacency and teflon-deflection of the possibility of doing something better, something that's important to your "partner"? Fuuuuuuuck that.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 11:53 AM on July 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'd dump his ass for this, all by itself. Complacency and teflon-deflection of the possibility of doing something better, something that's important to your "partner"? Fuuuuuuuck that.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 11:53 AM on July 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
"you know, I think misandry is growing"
To be honest, I probably would have dumped him the moment the word "misandry" came out of his mouth in any serious fashion.
posted by dialetheia at 11:55 AM on July 24, 2015 [94 favorites]
To be honest, I probably would have dumped him the moment the word "misandry" came out of his mouth in any serious fashion.
posted by dialetheia at 11:55 AM on July 24, 2015 [94 favorites]
Oh god, honey-barbara, I'm so sorry. "Misandry" is such a huge red flag for me, it could seriously torpedo even my strongest, long-term relationships.
posted by skybluepink at 11:59 AM on July 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 11:59 AM on July 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
i mentioned it over in the meta thread but i think it applies to where this conversation is now too - men who won't read the thread when their partners specifically ask them to are showing you where their stand. they're saying that skimming a thread is too much effort. i'm most glad that women are here and reading and hearing that they aren't crazy or overreacting. this is a real thing. the communal efforts we're putting into this thread are for each other. if men want to learn from that, they're welcome to - but mostly i'm glad so many women are seeing that they can demand more.
posted by nadawi at 12:01 PM on July 24, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:01 PM on July 24, 2015 [35 favorites]
(I sort of want to reinstate my OKC profile just to see how unavailable I can make myself. "Things I think about: Kyriarchy, patriarchy, the false gender binary, anxiety and capitalism, and information security.")
posted by XtinaS at 12:03 PM on July 24, 2015 [50 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 12:03 PM on July 24, 2015 [50 favorites]
Just wanted to pop in and say that after some reflection time I realized that this
Someone got shirty with me in an AskMe recently because I pointed out that women are biologically disinclined to have sex with their caretake-ees so, you know...if you act like a toddler don't be surprised if you get the sex life of one.
explains so much about how some my past relationships had evolved into. I always thought that the 'losing desire' thing is just what happens or that it was always me having some sort of issue with some sort of hang-up. Like I don't get how super hot and bothered I was for this dude before, I mean I know about the honeymoon phase and all but the drop-off seemed pretty quick.
Huge ah-ha moment. Like holy-moly, wtf I can totally see the progression and correlation now!
It makes total sense, especially now that I'm older and think of things that I do find sexy and a turn ons. Most have to do with some sort of compentency related to so much emotional labor skills that have been brought up in this thread.
posted by Jalliah at 12:08 PM on July 24, 2015 [43 favorites]
Someone got shirty with me in an AskMe recently because I pointed out that women are biologically disinclined to have sex with their caretake-ees so, you know...if you act like a toddler don't be surprised if you get the sex life of one.
explains so much about how some my past relationships had evolved into. I always thought that the 'losing desire' thing is just what happens or that it was always me having some sort of issue with some sort of hang-up. Like I don't get how super hot and bothered I was for this dude before, I mean I know about the honeymoon phase and all but the drop-off seemed pretty quick.
Huge ah-ha moment. Like holy-moly, wtf I can totally see the progression and correlation now!
It makes total sense, especially now that I'm older and think of things that I do find sexy and a turn ons. Most have to do with some sort of compentency related to so much emotional labor skills that have been brought up in this thread.
posted by Jalliah at 12:08 PM on July 24, 2015 [43 favorites]
Remember that you always have the option of taking to the sea.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:14 PM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:14 PM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Before my best friend's fiancé had his lightbulb moment, he took the entire thing super aggressively. It was personal, it was an attack, he does everything she asks, it was fanatic extremism around a made up thing, etc. I mean she was in tears talking to me. (Things are much better since then with smaller ups and downs, thankfully.) But that "You're unjustly accusing me of being a terrible person" is such a consistent male reaction in my experience that we live our whole lives expecting it. It's not fair to generalize and I'm drawing strictly from my own past here, but I've yet to meet a woman who hasn't been trained since birth to carefully consider criticism and the fact (!!) that of course she's not perfect. Whereas the men in my life? Even the really good awesome men? "This is an ATTACK on my CHARACTER."
What gives?
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:15 PM on July 24, 2015 [89 favorites]
What gives?
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:15 PM on July 24, 2015 [89 favorites]
i added "feminism. the partiarchy" to the list of "things i think about" on my okcupid profile.
Mine says: "You should message me if ... you would comfortably and openly call yourself a liberal and a feminist."
posted by desjardins at 12:15 PM on July 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Mine says: "You should message me if ... you would comfortably and openly call yourself a liberal and a feminist."
posted by desjardins at 12:15 PM on July 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
I've yet to meet a woman who hasn't been trained since birth to carefully consider criticism and the fact (!!) that of course she's not perfect
I regret that I have but one favorite to give for this comment. And to take criticism and learn from it and be told it's not a personal attack and try not to cry if heaven forbid you're one of the sensitive ones. As opposed to immediately getting your hackles up and going on the defensive.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:18 PM on July 24, 2015 [32 favorites]
I regret that I have but one favorite to give for this comment. And to take criticism and learn from it and be told it's not a personal attack and try not to cry if heaven forbid you're one of the sensitive ones. As opposed to immediately getting your hackles up and going on the defensive.
posted by fiercecupcake at 12:18 PM on July 24, 2015 [32 favorites]
erratic meatsack, it doesn't even need to rise to the level of actual criticism. Failing to demonstrate proper appreciation for them doing something — anything! — is seen as an assault on their self-worth.
Like, thanks for trying to do me a favor, but it didn't actually make things better and now I have to manage your hurt feelings that I'm not falling over from enthusiasm.
posted by Lexica at 12:20 PM on July 24, 2015 [23 favorites]
Like, thanks for trying to do me a favor, but it didn't actually make things better and now I have to manage your hurt feelings that I'm not falling over from enthusiasm.
posted by Lexica at 12:20 PM on July 24, 2015 [23 favorites]
I mentioned the better part of a thousand comments ago that I was grateful for this thread for the opportunity to frame for myself the concept of emotional labor. As I mentioned, I've been able to identify parts of it that I do pretty well (day-to-day household and social organization, active listening) and parts that I do less well (gift-giving and recognition of special occasions, especially). Here are some things that I've done in the last week as a direct result of that framing:
-begun wishing people a happy birthday on Facebook, something that I'd previously thought of as silly and unserious. But someone's comment way above about the mindfulness of a gift being as important or more important than the actual gift itself spoke to me, and I've committed to notice whether it is someone's birthday as I visit my FB home screen and to think of them and to write them a short message, an easy thing that I know that people appreciate.
-Instead of following my usual "plan" and sending a panicky, somewhat thoughtless card and/or flowers at the last minute for my mom's birthday, which is in a few days, I took the time to think about what she might actually want it and sent it to arrive in advance.
-I called my best friend, who I hadn't spoken to in two months since right after his new baby was born. I got his new address, planned a trip to visit and meet the new baby in the fall, and sent a gift for the baby.
I don't think I would have done any of that without this thread. I'm always looking for opportunities to grow and am constantly amazed how much more of the world opens up as I get older and understand myself better and keep paying attention and learning, even as I keep thinking over and over that I have things pretty much figured out. Thanks again for being a part of that this week.
posted by Kwine at 12:20 PM on July 24, 2015 [51 favorites]
-begun wishing people a happy birthday on Facebook, something that I'd previously thought of as silly and unserious. But someone's comment way above about the mindfulness of a gift being as important or more important than the actual gift itself spoke to me, and I've committed to notice whether it is someone's birthday as I visit my FB home screen and to think of them and to write them a short message, an easy thing that I know that people appreciate.
-Instead of following my usual "plan" and sending a panicky, somewhat thoughtless card and/or flowers at the last minute for my mom's birthday, which is in a few days, I took the time to think about what she might actually want it and sent it to arrive in advance.
-I called my best friend, who I hadn't spoken to in two months since right after his new baby was born. I got his new address, planned a trip to visit and meet the new baby in the fall, and sent a gift for the baby.
I don't think I would have done any of that without this thread. I'm always looking for opportunities to grow and am constantly amazed how much more of the world opens up as I get older and understand myself better and keep paying attention and learning, even as I keep thinking over and over that I have things pretty much figured out. Thanks again for being a part of that this week.
posted by Kwine at 12:20 PM on July 24, 2015 [51 favorites]
"You're unjustly accusing me of being a terrible person"
Ours always went like:
him: you think I'm such an asshole *pout*
me, trying to soothe him: no, I never called you that, I said I had a problem with [behavior]
I guess I would have saved us both a lot of time if I'd just called him an asshole.
posted by desjardins at 12:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [80 favorites]
Ours always went like:
him: you think I'm such an asshole *pout*
me, trying to soothe him: no, I never called you that, I said I had a problem with [behavior]
I guess I would have saved us both a lot of time if I'd just called him an asshole.
posted by desjardins at 12:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [80 favorites]
Whereas the men in my life? Even the really good awesome men? "This is an ATTACK on my CHARACTER."
What gives?
I have to assume it's subconscious (or maybe not even all that sub) attitudes about taking any criticism or direction from women. I've probably spent about half my professional life answering to a female boss. Which is probably not something I would have given one thought to if I hadn't fielded questions about whether that was a problem for me. Multiple times. In forms like "and you don't have a problem with that?"
There's just no way to interpret that question from another man in any way other than an accompanying message of "because you should." Unless I'd earlier run off on some excessive anti-woman screed, I guess, and they thought this was a contradiction; You'll just have to take my word that such was not the case.
If criticism from X strings more then that's a pretty clear indication that one thinks X is not qualified or within their rights to criticise you. Maybe it's not always internalized misogyny but absent a reason someone can vocalize that sure seems like a reasonable go-to assumption.
posted by phearlez at 12:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
What gives?
I have to assume it's subconscious (or maybe not even all that sub) attitudes about taking any criticism or direction from women. I've probably spent about half my professional life answering to a female boss. Which is probably not something I would have given one thought to if I hadn't fielded questions about whether that was a problem for me. Multiple times. In forms like "and you don't have a problem with that?"
There's just no way to interpret that question from another man in any way other than an accompanying message of "because you should." Unless I'd earlier run off on some excessive anti-woman screed, I guess, and they thought this was a contradiction; You'll just have to take my word that such was not the case.
If criticism from X strings more then that's a pretty clear indication that one thinks X is not qualified or within their rights to criticise you. Maybe it's not always internalized misogyny but absent a reason someone can vocalize that sure seems like a reasonable go-to assumption.
posted by phearlez at 12:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
him: you think I'm such an asshole *pout*
me, trying to soothe him: no, I never called you that, I said I had a problem with [behavior]
My mom used to pull me on this all the time. finally, buoyed by years of therapy, I said "Mom, I get that you're uncomfortable and ashamed of your behavior, but I resent this attempt to get me to comfort you after you wronged me. So I'm not going to do it. If you feel comfortable labeling yourself as an asshole, you may feel free to do so, but those are your words, not mine, and I won't take responsibility for them."
Thankfully she is an emotionally competent human being, and so after a few minutes of silence, she said "I am going to think about that some more when I'm in a more receptive mood. That was a very effectively stated piece of feedback and I am glad you shared it with me. Can I make you a cup of tea?" and then she both made me a cup of tea AND thought about it more later, and she hasn't really done it much since.
posted by KathrynT at 12:32 PM on July 24, 2015 [132 favorites]
me, trying to soothe him: no, I never called you that, I said I had a problem with [behavior]
My mom used to pull me on this all the time. finally, buoyed by years of therapy, I said "Mom, I get that you're uncomfortable and ashamed of your behavior, but I resent this attempt to get me to comfort you after you wronged me. So I'm not going to do it. If you feel comfortable labeling yourself as an asshole, you may feel free to do so, but those are your words, not mine, and I won't take responsibility for them."
Thankfully she is an emotionally competent human being, and so after a few minutes of silence, she said "I am going to think about that some more when I'm in a more receptive mood. That was a very effectively stated piece of feedback and I am glad you shared it with me. Can I make you a cup of tea?" and then she both made me a cup of tea AND thought about it more later, and she hasn't really done it much since.
posted by KathrynT at 12:32 PM on July 24, 2015 [132 favorites]
Having to put on a happy face when you ask dude to Do The Thing for the 5th, 10th, or 50th time is far and away the most exhausting part of emotional laboring in a relationship, for me, and really the dealbreaker that pushed me over the ledge into wanting to seek the glorious solace of spinsterhood. My most recent ex needed to have everything remotely uncomfortable couched in a hundred layers of pleasantries, because if I didn't make sure to ask with the utmost delicate gentleness, my already-low chances of convincing him to Do The Thing would be reduced even further -- like, from a 1% chance to 0.00001% -- as my chances of getting yelled at just for asking would increase exponentially.
No matter how many times I asked him to pick up after himself and then found myself shivering with frustration when he inevitably ignored me, the second my tone belied so much as a hint of annoyance, the dominoes fell like clockwork: Loud Huff, Silent Treatment, Stomp Around the House, Angrily Play Xbox, Go Out to the Bar, and/or Turn Off My Phone and Disappear for 24-72 Hours. No matter how much I made sure to preemptively neuter and defang even the simplest request, he only ever responded to me like I'd just told him to fuck off. Like asking him to behave in a manner more fitting of a grown adult was insulting on its face.
As his reticence got to me more and more, he grew increasingly emboldened, to the point where asking him to do anything -- put your empty beer cans in the recycling bin? unload the dishwasher, or at least put your dirty dishes in the dishwasher I just emptied instead of stacking them in the sink? for the love of Christ, flush the toilet after you use it? -- was eventually just met with a steely-eyed glare, a furrowed brow, and a slammed bedroom door. Not even "no," just staring at me like I was nuts and then vacating the premises. And then it was up to me to cozen and make nice afterward, apologize with a little gift or just keep quiet and Do The Thing myself, all of which were actions I apparently performed as some sort of rote display of ritualized submission and self-loathing. It makes me feel so embarrassed and ashamed to remember.
So I spent years (!!) living that way, tiptoeing on eggshells in my own home, before my life imploded and I suddenly realized that I was not actually obligated to spend the rest of my life catering to anyone, let alone someone who had grown so comfortable displaying how much contempt he had for me. It blows my mind to remember -- not just the fact that I was eventually ground down so far that I couldn't even get upset about the way things were, but that I had convinced myself it was all perfectly normal, nothing more than part of the various compromises and sacrifices people have to make in relationships.
FUCK THAT.
posted by divined by radio at 12:35 PM on July 24, 2015 [139 favorites]
No matter how many times I asked him to pick up after himself and then found myself shivering with frustration when he inevitably ignored me, the second my tone belied so much as a hint of annoyance, the dominoes fell like clockwork: Loud Huff, Silent Treatment, Stomp Around the House, Angrily Play Xbox, Go Out to the Bar, and/or Turn Off My Phone and Disappear for 24-72 Hours. No matter how much I made sure to preemptively neuter and defang even the simplest request, he only ever responded to me like I'd just told him to fuck off. Like asking him to behave in a manner more fitting of a grown adult was insulting on its face.
As his reticence got to me more and more, he grew increasingly emboldened, to the point where asking him to do anything -- put your empty beer cans in the recycling bin? unload the dishwasher, or at least put your dirty dishes in the dishwasher I just emptied instead of stacking them in the sink? for the love of Christ, flush the toilet after you use it? -- was eventually just met with a steely-eyed glare, a furrowed brow, and a slammed bedroom door. Not even "no," just staring at me like I was nuts and then vacating the premises. And then it was up to me to cozen and make nice afterward, apologize with a little gift or just keep quiet and Do The Thing myself, all of which were actions I apparently performed as some sort of rote display of ritualized submission and self-loathing. It makes me feel so embarrassed and ashamed to remember.
So I spent years (!!) living that way, tiptoeing on eggshells in my own home, before my life imploded and I suddenly realized that I was not actually obligated to spend the rest of my life catering to anyone, let alone someone who had grown so comfortable displaying how much contempt he had for me. It blows my mind to remember -- not just the fact that I was eventually ground down so far that I couldn't even get upset about the way things were, but that I had convinced myself it was all perfectly normal, nothing more than part of the various compromises and sacrifices people have to make in relationships.
FUCK THAT.
posted by divined by radio at 12:35 PM on July 24, 2015 [139 favorites]
So I read the initial article, and I've been popping in and out of this discussion as it's evolved. I have a lot of thoughts that I don't think necessarily conflict with each other - thoughts that range from "ugh, my mom's comment immediately after my wedding that all the cards were my job now" (they are not: Mr. HoLoG buys his own family's cards) to "like 75% of the arguments I've had with Mr. HoLoG are in here, right down to "I need you to say nice things to me occasionally even if you are mad at the world because boy howdy trying to guess the magic thing that will make you stop treating everyone around you like garbage is exhausting and you telling me that I'm crazy for bringing it up is also exhausting and maybe grounds for divorce" to (despite the previous statement) "man, I picked a good one - I did not realize how many little things he does that make life easier for all of us." And then I told him this, and thank you.
And then finally, to this: You know, I feel like I'm just now getting the hang of this whole emotional labor thing, and that makes me feel proud and happy, not taken advantage of. I love that I know that my friend will be happy if I make a Sneaky Vegan baby shower menu. I love that my husband will be happy if I find him a chocolate bar with no nuts and bring it home. I feel like I am, belatedly, becoming un-self-centered enough that I can give the people around me exactly the things and words and experiences that say "I love you and I am paying attention when you talk." At least some of the time.
I'm not sure any of this really matters, except to be a part of the conversation. And to add this: I just last week lost a dear family member whose life was spent in this kind of emotional labor-giving to others. Her funeral packed the church and we did not stop telling stories about her for several days. I got kind of salty at the premise of the original article, which seems to assume that monetary payment is the only acceptable currency with which to reward emotional labor. (I may also be grouchy because hey, death in the family) I would like to leave such a legacy behind me as well.
posted by House of Leaves of Grass at 12:41 PM on July 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
And then finally, to this: You know, I feel like I'm just now getting the hang of this whole emotional labor thing, and that makes me feel proud and happy, not taken advantage of. I love that I know that my friend will be happy if I make a Sneaky Vegan baby shower menu. I love that my husband will be happy if I find him a chocolate bar with no nuts and bring it home. I feel like I am, belatedly, becoming un-self-centered enough that I can give the people around me exactly the things and words and experiences that say "I love you and I am paying attention when you talk." At least some of the time.
I'm not sure any of this really matters, except to be a part of the conversation. And to add this: I just last week lost a dear family member whose life was spent in this kind of emotional labor-giving to others. Her funeral packed the church and we did not stop telling stories about her for several days. I got kind of salty at the premise of the original article, which seems to assume that monetary payment is the only acceptable currency with which to reward emotional labor. (I may also be grouchy because hey, death in the family) I would like to leave such a legacy behind me as well.
posted by House of Leaves of Grass at 12:41 PM on July 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
Nobody's saying emotional labor is useless or needs to be paid for (not even the original article). We're saying that when it's done by women it's usually invisible, unreciprocated, unappreciated and denigrated, and that when men do it, they usually get promoted. When I figured out how to girl in my teens, I thought it was excellent too. I still do. I'm just done using that energy on people who won't even realize or appreciate it when I'm dead.
posted by easter queen at 1:02 PM on July 24, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 1:02 PM on July 24, 2015 [37 favorites]
Still reading all the comments, but I just wanted to thank you all from the bottom of my heart. For years I blamed myself for the divorce. The ex who said if I loved him I'd go tent camping with him, even though I despise tent camping. The ex who, when I was going off the antidepressant that gave me brain zaps and made me sleep 12 hours a day, yelled that the only thing he asked me to do was sweep the damn floor and even then I did a bad job. The ex who never listened, only tried to fix my problems. "Try not to be so depressed!" He wanted to stay in the house during the divorce that he instigated "because all his tools and stuff were there." (No way, asshole.) I thought it was my fault for being crazy, not trying hard enough, for being a bad spouse.
Ten years later I have a partner who understands emotional labor, and he's very good at it himself. He's there for every vet appointment, brings home my favorite wine when I've had a bad day, does his share of cooking, cleaning and laundry, and thanks me for the things I do. When I have a panic attack and feel like an ass, he hugs me and tells me it's OK. He doesn't try to fix me. I told him about this thread, and now he laughs when I give him an extra hug because he knows what I've been reading.
Recently I heard from mutual friends about an ill-fated camping trip that the ex and his girlfriend went on. There was a bad storm, and in the middle of the night they had to pack everything up in pouring rain because there were tree branches coming down. Meanwhile I was home safely tucked in with my beloved and our cat, watching the lighting. When I heard the story, I immediately thanked my partner. "What for?" he asked. "BECAUSE I FUCKING NEVER HAVE TO GO CAMPING AGAIN."
Thank you all again, and hugs to anyone who wants 'em.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 1:07 PM on July 24, 2015 [41 favorites]
Ten years later I have a partner who understands emotional labor, and he's very good at it himself. He's there for every vet appointment, brings home my favorite wine when I've had a bad day, does his share of cooking, cleaning and laundry, and thanks me for the things I do. When I have a panic attack and feel like an ass, he hugs me and tells me it's OK. He doesn't try to fix me. I told him about this thread, and now he laughs when I give him an extra hug because he knows what I've been reading.
Recently I heard from mutual friends about an ill-fated camping trip that the ex and his girlfriend went on. There was a bad storm, and in the middle of the night they had to pack everything up in pouring rain because there were tree branches coming down. Meanwhile I was home safely tucked in with my beloved and our cat, watching the lighting. When I heard the story, I immediately thanked my partner. "What for?" he asked. "BECAUSE I FUCKING NEVER HAVE TO GO CAMPING AGAIN."
Thank you all again, and hugs to anyone who wants 'em.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 1:07 PM on July 24, 2015 [41 favorites]
I don't understand why it seems so many men don't want to get better at navigating relationships. I certainly do. I've been devouring this thread now for days, identifying with many of the epiphanies (I am terrible at taking criticism) and figuring out deeply resonating places where my previous marriage failed and why my current one works, and also highlighting lots of places where I can improve. In a conversation with a friend who was resisting reading it he said "tell me a good comment to start on" because, I dunno, I guess he wanted someone to justify the claim that it was an important thing to spend time on. With full esprit d'escalier I guess I should have said "the comment that perfectly mirrors a bunch of fights I had with my mom thirty years ago about how I don't see messes and therefore she can just clean it up if it bugs her so much." It's not that hard, guys, just pay attention and try to learn something.
brb, gotta send my mom an email apologizing for being an asshole kid.
posted by norm at 1:10 PM on July 24, 2015 [49 favorites]
brb, gotta send my mom an email apologizing for being an asshole kid.
posted by norm at 1:10 PM on July 24, 2015 [49 favorites]
If anyone wants, I just made the thread into a pdf. No editing, except for the bottom stuff after I copied it all.
It's through google docs and warning it's huge. Just over 700 pages.
posted by Jalliah at 1:31 PM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
It's through google docs and warning it's huge. Just over 700 pages.
posted by Jalliah at 1:31 PM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
that being a female partner in a straight relationship means a BUTTLOAD of emotional labor around sex
Adding to this, how about the fact that a man who does not perform cunnilingus won't get any shit from society (though he very well should from his partner, if that's something she's into), but a woman who won't? Boy howdy is she a bad girlfriend/wife.
And it just occurred to me, I wonder if it is more common for (heterosexual) women to not be into receiving (more common than heterosexual men) because it is sexual emotional labor that is performed by their partner when women are socialized from birth to take on all that responsibility and like easter queen said above:
women have flattened out their own sexuality in service of male sexual dominance
(Sorry if that's not coherent. This is the first I've tried to put this idea into words.)
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:31 PM on July 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
Adding to this, how about the fact that a man who does not perform cunnilingus won't get any shit from society (though he very well should from his partner, if that's something she's into), but a woman who won't? Boy howdy is she a bad girlfriend/wife.
And it just occurred to me, I wonder if it is more common for (heterosexual) women to not be into receiving (more common than heterosexual men) because it is sexual emotional labor that is performed by their partner when women are socialized from birth to take on all that responsibility and like easter queen said above:
women have flattened out their own sexuality in service of male sexual dominance
(Sorry if that's not coherent. This is the first I've tried to put this idea into words.)
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:31 PM on July 24, 2015 [17 favorites]
It took me a while but this amazing thread just convinced me to donate monthly to this site. You're all fucking brilliant.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 1:45 PM on July 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 1:45 PM on July 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
I wonder if it is more common for (heterosexual) women to not be into receiving (more common than heterosexual men) because it is sexual emotional labor that is performed by their partner when women are socialized from birth to take on all that responsibility
Oh yeah, I've definitely excused dudes from going down on me solely because I did not want to deal with how much work it is for me when a dude is performing oral sex on me for any reason other than that he's super into it. The last guy I had sex with made big claims about how much he loves performing oral sex, can't get enough of it... then he gets down there for five minutes and is like "ugh could you just come already". I wanted to grab this twice-married middle-aged fool by his ears and shake him until his teeth rattled... but looking back on every way this guy shirked doing any EL at all, ever, it's no longer surprising to me that this guy is on his second divorce and has few friends he can turn to for actual comfort and support.
posted by palomar at 1:50 PM on July 24, 2015 [26 favorites]
Oh yeah, I've definitely excused dudes from going down on me solely because I did not want to deal with how much work it is for me when a dude is performing oral sex on me for any reason other than that he's super into it. The last guy I had sex with made big claims about how much he loves performing oral sex, can't get enough of it... then he gets down there for five minutes and is like "ugh could you just come already". I wanted to grab this twice-married middle-aged fool by his ears and shake him until his teeth rattled... but looking back on every way this guy shirked doing any EL at all, ever, it's no longer surprising to me that this guy is on his second divorce and has few friends he can turn to for actual comfort and support.
posted by palomar at 1:50 PM on July 24, 2015 [26 favorites]
I don't understand why it seems so many men don't want to get better at navigating relationships.
I think that's because, in general, they don't have to. There is always some woman that doesn't know that it doesn't have to be this way. Look how many women had an epiphany while reading this thread. The "men will be men" trope runs deep. Not that it's women's responsibility to change male behavior, but if all women everywhere stopped putting up with this BS tomorrow, I bet men would fucking figure it out pretty quickly.
posted by desjardins at 1:55 PM on July 24, 2015 [49 favorites]
I think that's because, in general, they don't have to. There is always some woman that doesn't know that it doesn't have to be this way. Look how many women had an epiphany while reading this thread. The "men will be men" trope runs deep. Not that it's women's responsibility to change male behavior, but if all women everywhere stopped putting up with this BS tomorrow, I bet men would fucking figure it out pretty quickly.
posted by desjardins at 1:55 PM on July 24, 2015 [49 favorites]
men who won't read the thread when their partners specifically ask them to are showing you where their stand.
Men who are reading this thread and are terrified of showing it to their partners are... confronting themselves with where they stand.
All hail to y'all, the best of MeFi, for this glorious, existential opus.
posted by progosk at 1:57 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Men who are reading this thread and are terrified of showing it to their partners are... confronting themselves with where they stand.
All hail to y'all, the best of MeFi, for this glorious, existential opus.
posted by progosk at 1:57 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
I guess I know how that is . . .
Like people you love
When they walk across your heart
Back and forth
Every day
Every night
And you think you have no feelings
Just because you lie there so still
never mind the source
posted by infini at 1:57 PM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Like people you love
When they walk across your heart
Back and forth
Every day
Every night
And you think you have no feelings
Just because you lie there so still
never mind the source
posted by infini at 1:57 PM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder if it is more common for (heterosexual) women to not be into receiving (more common than heterosexual men) because it is sexual emotional labor that is performed by their partner when women are socialized from birth to take on all that responsibility
For sure! The most well-adjusted, loving, thoughtful man I ever dated* had to convince me to let him go down on me because I just kept waving him away and saying shit like, "Oh, no, you shouldn't, I know it's disgusting down there, no man actually enjoys doing that, it's gross, I'm totally fine, we can just do you." And I really believed all of it! Because I had spent my whole life to that point believing that the entire point of any sex act involving a man and a woman was the man having an orgasm and the woman kind of gritting her teeth and tolerating whatever she had to endure so he could do that.
Until I met him, I didn't even believe women actually had orgasms. My female friends had all been having similarly disappointing sex and we had all come to the conclusion that the brief moments of "hey, that was... not unpleasant" were probably as good as it was going to get. Plus I was raised Catholic, so I had been taught that talking about sex in any way was innately slutty and shameful and my only role in the process would be tolie back and think of England let the guy stick it in until he was done, so it wasn't like I was actively seeking out information about it. (Oh, and don't forget to act like you're having the time of your life, because otherwise you might hurt his feelings!) But then this one dude came along and upended my entire understanding -- not just of sex and sexuality, but of my body and the life I was going to spend living in it, with a series of gentle but persistent reminders: First, that I deserved to experience pleasure and second, that he was very sincerely into doing whatever he had to do so I could have it. It was just a whole different vibe than what I've had with anyone else, before or since. And before I got the hell over it and started feeling confident about getting down without fear or shame, I felt roiled with awkwardness, because the experiences I was having flew in the face of my understanding that I was going to spend the rest of my life faking it so as not to impugn the brittle, frail masculinity of whatever dude was lackadaisically grunting and huffing away on top of me.
Ah, womanhood.
* It should come as no surprise that he reads MetaFilter and is almost certainly the kind of guy who would bookmark this thread for edification purposes, so hey, man, if you're reading this: Thanks for that, I love you, you're the best!
posted by divined by radio at 2:00 PM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
For sure! The most well-adjusted, loving, thoughtful man I ever dated* had to convince me to let him go down on me because I just kept waving him away and saying shit like, "Oh, no, you shouldn't, I know it's disgusting down there, no man actually enjoys doing that, it's gross, I'm totally fine, we can just do you." And I really believed all of it! Because I had spent my whole life to that point believing that the entire point of any sex act involving a man and a woman was the man having an orgasm and the woman kind of gritting her teeth and tolerating whatever she had to endure so he could do that.
Until I met him, I didn't even believe women actually had orgasms. My female friends had all been having similarly disappointing sex and we had all come to the conclusion that the brief moments of "hey, that was... not unpleasant" were probably as good as it was going to get. Plus I was raised Catholic, so I had been taught that talking about sex in any way was innately slutty and shameful and my only role in the process would be to
Ah, womanhood.
* It should come as no surprise that he reads MetaFilter and is almost certainly the kind of guy who would bookmark this thread for edification purposes, so hey, man, if you're reading this: Thanks for that, I love you, you're the best!
posted by divined by radio at 2:00 PM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
MonkeyToes, you've made me realize that I'm bad at emotional labor myself. My husband always does the postcards. I used to, then my chronic fatigue hit harder, and that's why I stopped doing a lot of things. I'd just never looked at it from that perspective before.
posted by deirdresm at 2:16 PM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by deirdresm at 2:16 PM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Chiming in as another one this thread has deeply affected. I've been reading it all week and basically reevaluating every relationship I have.
I kind of want to enumerate all the wrongs that have been done to me, but it's not always about that. And I think it's important to do these things, at least to some degree. To some extent I don't care if it's gendered, as long as I have people in my life that give and receive in the same proportion. Even if I don't think we always give and receive equally in the same relationship. I guess this is how we end up with Crone Island (where everyone is contributing to upkeep! My Crone Island is an anticapitalist utopia.)
I'll never send Christmas cards but I'll erase my needs and wants and everything that makes me who I am in a relationship. I take that back, I refuse to do that anymore after doing it for so long. And it's ironic and so cliché that once I decided I was done moving for ANY damn man, I met one that, so far, seems to actually be worth the effort. But I've been literally exhausted to the point of tears with work and family obligations these past couple of weeks, and I won't lie that this thread makes me paranoid that he's been faking it, and I find myself half keeping score over whether I brought him a drink, or he did some dishes. I sent him this thread but we haven't talked about it yet.
I'm eternally grateful and say so to my friends who make it a point to check in with me periodically. It's slightly a product of introversion plus a busy life, but I have a significant portion of friends who I see a couple times a year even though we consider each other tight, and most of my newer ones are women who make an effort to reach out from time to time. This thread has inspired me to do that more.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 2:22 PM on July 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
I kind of want to enumerate all the wrongs that have been done to me, but it's not always about that. And I think it's important to do these things, at least to some degree. To some extent I don't care if it's gendered, as long as I have people in my life that give and receive in the same proportion. Even if I don't think we always give and receive equally in the same relationship. I guess this is how we end up with Crone Island (where everyone is contributing to upkeep! My Crone Island is an anticapitalist utopia.)
I'll never send Christmas cards but I'll erase my needs and wants and everything that makes me who I am in a relationship. I take that back, I refuse to do that anymore after doing it for so long. And it's ironic and so cliché that once I decided I was done moving for ANY damn man, I met one that, so far, seems to actually be worth the effort. But I've been literally exhausted to the point of tears with work and family obligations these past couple of weeks, and I won't lie that this thread makes me paranoid that he's been faking it, and I find myself half keeping score over whether I brought him a drink, or he did some dishes. I sent him this thread but we haven't talked about it yet.
I'm eternally grateful and say so to my friends who make it a point to check in with me periodically. It's slightly a product of introversion plus a busy life, but I have a significant portion of friends who I see a couple times a year even though we consider each other tight, and most of my newer ones are women who make an effort to reach out from time to time. This thread has inspired me to do that more.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 2:22 PM on July 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
If anyone wants, I just made the thread into a pdf. No editing, except for the bottom stuff after I copied it all.
I just got the mefi2book program working, as I figured it was the least I could do given what I'm getting out of reading all this.
Here's the link to a book formatted PDF (courtesy of Gwint's code):
https://app.box.com/mefi-UEL-CroneIsland-bookPDF
I'll update it periodically until the thread closes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [38 favorites]
I just got the mefi2book program working, as I figured it was the least I could do given what I'm getting out of reading all this.
Here's the link to a book formatted PDF (courtesy of Gwint's code):
https://app.box.com/mefi-UEL-CroneIsland-bookPDF
I'll update it periodically until the thread closes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [38 favorites]
In retrospect, I regret leaving the comment I did. This thread has sparked a lot of thoughts and feelings for me, but that doesn't mean that this is the best place to share or work on them.
posted by House of Leaves of Grass at 2:29 PM on July 24, 2015
posted by House of Leaves of Grass at 2:29 PM on July 24, 2015
House of ..., I know how you might be feeling, but take a breath. It's just the Internet. (Gulp!)
posted by honey-barbara at 2:59 PM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by honey-barbara at 2:59 PM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
> I don't understand why it seems so many men don't want to get better at navigating relationships.
I think that's because, in general, they don't have to.
Absolutely, and my dream is that this thread will get shared eventually with every woman in the world and they will all collectively refuse to put up with that shit and then the men will have to. (Hey, a feminist can dream...)
posted by languagehat at 3:06 PM on July 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
I think that's because, in general, they don't have to.
Absolutely, and my dream is that this thread will get shared eventually with every woman in the world and they will all collectively refuse to put up with that shit and then the men will have to. (Hey, a feminist can dream...)
posted by languagehat at 3:06 PM on July 24, 2015 [31 favorites]
Add another +1 to the 'This thread has been nothing but amazing in a myriad of ways' chorus. 3 or 4 days later and I'm finally caught up.
I am a lady, and I'm terrible at emotional labor. A lot of it definitely has to do with internalized misogyny (so many layers! I thought I was rid of it!), and a lot of it just being completely oblivious.
My thoughts were: "Cards are useless! Presents are dumb! Why do I need to consider someone else's feelings? They should just deal with them on their own. They should just not have them like me." (what even!) I'm very much a feminist but this has been a total, total blind spot.
"You're unjustly accusing me of being a terrible person"
That is totally me. That is how I feel whenever my girlfriend tells me I've done something to hurt her feelings. I get super defensive immediately. I thought it was just me being conflict averse? But really I just can't take some goddamn criticism like an adult. I'm not a total cad (I love cooking and omg definitely see the mess), but seeing myself in a lot of these stories is completely eye opening. I don't want to live on Coot Island!!! There are too many dudes there!
I'm interested in the Guess/Ask framework (though I can't really figure out which one of those I am). And I'm also very interested to see how cultural things factor in. My family is Russian and they don't really "do" feelings -- for the 'write a letter to your kid' portion of my brother's HS graduation he got a "good luck!" card with $50 in it from my parents. On the other hand, strict gender roles *are* very much a thing (in terms of cooking/cleaning) -- though less so in my family. My dad pulls his weight for the most part and is a functioning adult, but he certainly has his 'soap' moments.
Anyway, thanks again MeFi for being awesome, and now I have a lot of food for thought and things to talk about with my new therapist. And I will continue to follow this thread until is closes :(
posted by theRussian at 3:18 PM on July 24, 2015 [27 favorites]
I am a lady, and I'm terrible at emotional labor. A lot of it definitely has to do with internalized misogyny (so many layers! I thought I was rid of it!), and a lot of it just being completely oblivious.
My thoughts were: "Cards are useless! Presents are dumb! Why do I need to consider someone else's feelings? They should just deal with them on their own. They should just not have them like me." (what even!) I'm very much a feminist but this has been a total, total blind spot.
"You're unjustly accusing me of being a terrible person"
That is totally me. That is how I feel whenever my girlfriend tells me I've done something to hurt her feelings. I get super defensive immediately. I thought it was just me being conflict averse? But really I just can't take some goddamn criticism like an adult. I'm not a total cad (I love cooking and omg definitely see the mess), but seeing myself in a lot of these stories is completely eye opening. I don't want to live on Coot Island!!! There are too many dudes there!
I'm interested in the Guess/Ask framework (though I can't really figure out which one of those I am). And I'm also very interested to see how cultural things factor in. My family is Russian and they don't really "do" feelings -- for the 'write a letter to your kid' portion of my brother's HS graduation he got a "good luck!" card with $50 in it from my parents. On the other hand, strict gender roles *are* very much a thing (in terms of cooking/cleaning) -- though less so in my family. My dad pulls his weight for the most part and is a functioning adult, but he certainly has his 'soap' moments.
Anyway, thanks again MeFi for being awesome, and now I have a lot of food for thought and things to talk about with my new therapist. And I will continue to follow this thread until is closes :(
posted by theRussian at 3:18 PM on July 24, 2015 [27 favorites]
Additional putting-pieces-together moment today. I was listening to a radio news story about health care costs, and they were interviewing a (male) doctor about how doctors often don't know the costs of the drugs they are prescribing, which causes them to be insensitive to cost, which, of course, causes all kinds of other problems and makes our insurance and medication rates in the US so high. The doctor they interviewed was pretty much "I don't know how much the drugs cost; it's not my job to know that!" This was presented in the story as a widespread mindset that is characteristic of many doctors.
Then I reflected that almost all my (female) doctors have had some idea of the expense of the medications they were prescribing on my plan and could make practical recommendations to me about it - including changing my scripts to something generic but more affordable. I started to wonder if that reflected their greater likelihood of doing the emotional labor to wonder about how what they were prescribing would actually fit into my life, budget, behavior. Then I started to wonder about the role of women in the rise of more holistic patient-care models, and how the absence of this emotional labor in classical healthcare models might be partially responsible for their siloed and atomized approach - once the patient leaves your office with their prescription, the rest is "not my job." No emotional labor, thank you. My work here is done.
A certain amount of emotional labor - by which I mean, envisioning the world from the point of view of the patient, wanting to increase the likelihood that, behaviorally, you will be prescribing treatments that work, thinking through the interactions of people and medications beyond a simple input/output model - must be essential to improving the quality of healthcare. It's not that I think people shouldn't be well compensated for their ability and willingness to do that, nor am I advocating for pressuring people to do more of it than professional boundaries should dictate. But I think that it is definitely something that should be acknowledged as a kind of labor that makes healthcare more valuable. When you think about things in this way, it starts to look connected to everything - to systems in society that aren't working well, and toward solutions - but we can't get the solutions if we undervalue and dismiss these abilities and skills as "not really labor" or "above and beyond the call of duty." It should be recognized as an essential component of optimum care, evaluated, and compensated well; and when it's not present, as with doctors who aren't considering the whole patient, that ought to affect compensation, too.
posted by Miko at 3:28 PM on July 24, 2015 [66 favorites]
Then I reflected that almost all my (female) doctors have had some idea of the expense of the medications they were prescribing on my plan and could make practical recommendations to me about it - including changing my scripts to something generic but more affordable. I started to wonder if that reflected their greater likelihood of doing the emotional labor to wonder about how what they were prescribing would actually fit into my life, budget, behavior. Then I started to wonder about the role of women in the rise of more holistic patient-care models, and how the absence of this emotional labor in classical healthcare models might be partially responsible for their siloed and atomized approach - once the patient leaves your office with their prescription, the rest is "not my job." No emotional labor, thank you. My work here is done.
A certain amount of emotional labor - by which I mean, envisioning the world from the point of view of the patient, wanting to increase the likelihood that, behaviorally, you will be prescribing treatments that work, thinking through the interactions of people and medications beyond a simple input/output model - must be essential to improving the quality of healthcare. It's not that I think people shouldn't be well compensated for their ability and willingness to do that, nor am I advocating for pressuring people to do more of it than professional boundaries should dictate. But I think that it is definitely something that should be acknowledged as a kind of labor that makes healthcare more valuable. When you think about things in this way, it starts to look connected to everything - to systems in society that aren't working well, and toward solutions - but we can't get the solutions if we undervalue and dismiss these abilities and skills as "not really labor" or "above and beyond the call of duty." It should be recognized as an essential component of optimum care, evaluated, and compensated well; and when it's not present, as with doctors who aren't considering the whole patient, that ought to affect compensation, too.
posted by Miko at 3:28 PM on July 24, 2015 [66 favorites]
"You're unjustly accusing me of being a terrible person"
That is totally me. That is how I feel whenever my girlfriend tells me I've done something to hurt her feelings. I get super defensive immediately.
The revelations just keep coming. Seeing this articulated so clearly really helps me understand what's going on in the heads of some people in my life when criticism - even extremely mild criticism - happens. I could certainly see the response happening, or anticipate it and try to ameliorate or phrase things juuuuust so or otherwise navigate this response, but this just made it a lot clearer.
For the record, my automatic response to even mild criticism is "oh shit, I messed up, how can I fix this?" and apologizing before I even have a sense of what might really be wrong, or if it's even actually my fault. I've worked in therapy on the speedy-sorry because it's annoying, and I end up apologizing for ridiculous things that are honestly nothing to do with me. But if it sounds like criticism, that's what leaps to mind. This is extra emotional labor, for sure, and not really labor I want to be doing. It's a different kind of defensiveness - one is aimed outward, the other inward. "You think I suck" vs "oh shit, I suck".
I've never met a dude who does the auto-sorry. Not that I think anyone should have that particular problem, but I have noticed that it falls along gendered lines in my particular friend groups.
posted by lriG rorriM at 3:35 PM on July 24, 2015 [34 favorites]
That is totally me. That is how I feel whenever my girlfriend tells me I've done something to hurt her feelings. I get super defensive immediately.
The revelations just keep coming. Seeing this articulated so clearly really helps me understand what's going on in the heads of some people in my life when criticism - even extremely mild criticism - happens. I could certainly see the response happening, or anticipate it and try to ameliorate or phrase things juuuuust so or otherwise navigate this response, but this just made it a lot clearer.
For the record, my automatic response to even mild criticism is "oh shit, I messed up, how can I fix this?" and apologizing before I even have a sense of what might really be wrong, or if it's even actually my fault. I've worked in therapy on the speedy-sorry because it's annoying, and I end up apologizing for ridiculous things that are honestly nothing to do with me. But if it sounds like criticism, that's what leaps to mind. This is extra emotional labor, for sure, and not really labor I want to be doing. It's a different kind of defensiveness - one is aimed outward, the other inward. "You think I suck" vs "oh shit, I suck".
I've never met a dude who does the auto-sorry. Not that I think anyone should have that particular problem, but I have noticed that it falls along gendered lines in my particular friend groups.
posted by lriG rorriM at 3:35 PM on July 24, 2015 [34 favorites]
A certain amount of emotional labor - by which I mean, envisioning the world from the point of view of the patient,
User centered design as emotional labour? Interesting. Explains a lot.
posted by infini at 3:36 PM on July 24, 2015 [30 favorites]
User centered design as emotional labour? Interesting. Explains a lot.
posted by infini at 3:36 PM on July 24, 2015 [30 favorites]
Yeah, in short, I think it takes emotional labor to identify enough with the user to spot and correct potential friction points.
posted by Miko at 3:42 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Miko at 3:42 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Miko, your comment about health care also makes me think about the roles that nurses, as a traditionally female profession, are expected to play, where much of the explicit job description, and the unstated expectations, involve exactly the kinds of emotional labor you're talking about.
posted by gingerbeer at 3:43 PM on July 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by gingerbeer at 3:43 PM on July 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yeah, and I think that part of the problem in nursing (as at least one nurse commented above) is that this is labor they're really doing and is really needed, but it's not fully acknowledged as work that's just as important as checking signs, managing documentation, delivering meds and supportive technologies, and all the other work they do. And so it's also not acknowledged as effort, a limited resource, something that needs appropriate boundaries and should not be exploited, and should be properly compensated for.
posted by Miko at 3:55 PM on July 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Miko at 3:55 PM on July 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
Yes, nurses, a lot. My friend recently gave birth and made a point of thanking all of the nursefolk who helped, and they were astonished that someone thought of them. That made me really sad; nursefolk do super important interpersonal work, and it absolutely should be appreciated.
posted by XtinaS at 3:58 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 3:58 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
I tried to show my one-year-in BF this thread, saying how powerful it is to read. How it describes the way my marriage went/felt/became. He read for a few minutes and sighed "you know, I think misandry is growing" and went back to his breakfast.
What a jackass.
posted by winna at 4:36 PM on July 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
What a jackass.
posted by winna at 4:36 PM on July 24, 2015 [18 favorites]
My experience in the casualty department of our local NHS hospital last summer...well, I had a long story all typed up, but then had some kind of glitch, and lost it, but let's just say my impression of a guy my husband and I now refer to as "Dr DudeBro," vs. my impression of the nurses (who routinely screened me for domestic abuse, which wasn't why I was there with my injury, but goddamn I am so glad they do that, and to my delight my husband didn't go all #NotAllMen #misandry about it, but thought it was a fantastic thing to do as well) makes me want a statue of an NHS nurse on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square. Permanently.
Along with better pay, better treatment in general, and the respect they deserve, obviously. But also the statue, because why the hell not?
posted by skybluepink at 5:18 PM on July 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
Along with better pay, better treatment in general, and the respect they deserve, obviously. But also the statue, because why the hell not?
posted by skybluepink at 5:18 PM on July 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
In general, the big takeaway for me here is not that emotional labor is bad - much of it is the glue that holds the world together - but that it's real work, and for far too long a time, has just been belittled and dismissed as 'that stuff that females do.' In a non-patriarchy, we would recognize it as "valuable and essential contribution to human thriving that is shared, recognized, rewarded and protected against burnout."
posted by Miko at 5:31 PM on July 24, 2015 [71 favorites]
posted by Miko at 5:31 PM on July 24, 2015 [71 favorites]
"For those of us who do emotional labour professionally, how do you deal with it?"
Drinking. ALONE TIME. Trying not to think about work on the weekend/off hours as much as possible. And I think I said somewhere else here that I have no idea how anyone takes care of a family afterwards. I'm rather scared of the idea of having to take care of everyone needing me all. the. time. And at my age, who the hell would I be with anyway? What's available to me? Midlife crisis dudes who need a replacement mom? Ye gods.
Oh yeah, and Cosmo tips? Eeeek. I totally freaked out a dude the one time I tried one.
From that "who cares" link:
"But at interview, I said what I knew I was supposed to say: that I would clean the patient myself, regardless of when my shift ended. "
Yes, at my office we'd call that "giving excellent customer service!" You can't turn away someone just because time is up! If they want to stay and argue for over an hour, you by god sit there and listen to them! (Oh well, at least I don't actually clean up bodily fluids yet.)
"There is a reason mothers implore their children to settle down and start a family. You must make friends or have children or find a life partner. You must ensure those people stick around long enough to care for you when you get sick or grow old."
....Yeah, that's why people are unnerved at singles. Your fate is going to be awful when you get old.
I just cut a loooooong bunch of depressing paragraphs about this that shouldn't be in this thread, but in my experience, it's the blood/sex/baby families that do take precedence over "chosen" families in the end and I put up with whatever crazy my mom has going on because she's the only person I can trust for heavy backup in the world. What happens when she's gone? I'll have no one. Period. I can't find someone to become my family (i.e. that mayun!) and replace her for crap (friends prioritize their families first, as they well should), and it's probably not the world's best idea for me to try given how hard so-called partnership is anyway. But....someday I will be in deep shit and all alone and screwed, that's just the truth.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:42 PM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
Drinking. ALONE TIME. Trying not to think about work on the weekend/off hours as much as possible. And I think I said somewhere else here that I have no idea how anyone takes care of a family afterwards. I'm rather scared of the idea of having to take care of everyone needing me all. the. time. And at my age, who the hell would I be with anyway? What's available to me? Midlife crisis dudes who need a replacement mom? Ye gods.
Oh yeah, and Cosmo tips? Eeeek. I totally freaked out a dude the one time I tried one.
From that "who cares" link:
"But at interview, I said what I knew I was supposed to say: that I would clean the patient myself, regardless of when my shift ended. "
Yes, at my office we'd call that "giving excellent customer service!" You can't turn away someone just because time is up! If they want to stay and argue for over an hour, you by god sit there and listen to them! (Oh well, at least I don't actually clean up bodily fluids yet.)
"There is a reason mothers implore their children to settle down and start a family. You must make friends or have children or find a life partner. You must ensure those people stick around long enough to care for you when you get sick or grow old."
....Yeah, that's why people are unnerved at singles. Your fate is going to be awful when you get old.
I just cut a loooooong bunch of depressing paragraphs about this that shouldn't be in this thread, but in my experience, it's the blood/sex/baby families that do take precedence over "chosen" families in the end and I put up with whatever crazy my mom has going on because she's the only person I can trust for heavy backup in the world. What happens when she's gone? I'll have no one. Period. I can't find someone to become my family (i.e. that mayun!) and replace her for crap (friends prioritize their families first, as they well should), and it's probably not the world's best idea for me to try given how hard so-called partnership is anyway. But....someday I will be in deep shit and all alone and screwed, that's just the truth.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:42 PM on July 24, 2015 [22 favorites]
re: sex - this is probably the best way to explain why i'm submissive - it's the only way i've found to feel comfortable and cared for in sex. it's just so damn stressful if i'm supposed to be managing both of us all the time during that. submission gives me permission to give the deal token to my partner. i've always described it before as being able to shut my brain off, but i realize now that what i mean is that i'm giving myself (and getting from my partner) permission to just follow for a minute instead of constantly scoping out the terrain, anxiously looking for every path and stumble.
posted by nadawi at 6:43 PM on July 24, 2015 [63 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 6:43 PM on July 24, 2015 [63 favorites]
PONY REQUEST: I need a nuclear-strength favorite for what jenfullmoon just said. "Your fate is going to be awful when you get old." Yes. Jenfullmoon, we are in the same boat. What I've done so far is seek out other singles and talk about it and plot--my friends are scared, too, and with luck we'll be able to figure out something together. It's not a solution like "have a kid or six and try not to make them hate you" is a solution, but it's better than nothing.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:55 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 6:55 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
For a lot of people, the answer to that is becoming cohousing. Single women baby boomers are doing a lot to develop options in this department so I expect there will be more standard choices like this when I get to that age. The women in these clips wrote this book about it. Basically, it's Crone Island at the household level.
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on July 24, 2015 [46 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:19 PM on July 24, 2015 [46 favorites]
But....someday I will be in deep shit and all alone and screwed, that's just the truth.
This isn't a fact. I know people who are sick, though not old, and in pretty miserable crappy relationships because they're reliant on a partner. I know people who are neither sick or old who are in miserable crappy relationships because they're scared to be alone.
I think the point is not to be scared, whether alone or not or whatever.
posted by sweetkid at 7:22 PM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
This isn't a fact. I know people who are sick, though not old, and in pretty miserable crappy relationships because they're reliant on a partner. I know people who are neither sick or old who are in miserable crappy relationships because they're scared to be alone.
I think the point is not to be scared, whether alone or not or whatever.
posted by sweetkid at 7:22 PM on July 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
the point is not to be scared
I mean, I agree in theory, but aging is fairly scary. The thing is that there's going to be a time for all of us when we need help.
posted by Miko at 7:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mean, I agree in theory, but aging is fairly scary. The thing is that there's going to be a time for all of us when we need help.
posted by Miko at 7:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just mean that being with someone doesn't mean you won't be scared to get old, or that you won't end up old and alone.
posted by sweetkid at 7:26 PM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 7:26 PM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
My mother (the Queen of EL) went through this, is going through this, with one of her friends who has no family (call her Doris.)
Doris and Mom belong to the same church and they are both in their 70's. Doris got cancer and has no family and no close friends. She needed someone to drive her to the hospital for treatment and my mom volunteered. Months went by. The cancer spread and more and more things were going wrong with Doris's body. At some point her hand was involved so she was seeing a hand specialist. She was seeing a urologist. She was seeing a surgeon. Mom got more women from the church to help but mom (being a retired nurse) was also talking with Doris's doctors and typing up lists of medications and getting more involved with coordinating the various treatments. At one point she was spending nearly everyday with Doris, and Doris is not even a good friend. Things finally came to a crisis and a caretaker had to be hired, someone who drives her around and does some housework. Mom still helps out a bit just not everyday.
I don't know what the answer is but mom moved herself into a retirement village. She gave up her 3 bedroom house and moved into a condo. When the time comes she will be able to live there with hired assistance. Both of her kids live thousands of miles away so she made plans. And it doesn't hurt to have a really good friend network.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:27 PM on July 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
Doris and Mom belong to the same church and they are both in their 70's. Doris got cancer and has no family and no close friends. She needed someone to drive her to the hospital for treatment and my mom volunteered. Months went by. The cancer spread and more and more things were going wrong with Doris's body. At some point her hand was involved so she was seeing a hand specialist. She was seeing a urologist. She was seeing a surgeon. Mom got more women from the church to help but mom (being a retired nurse) was also talking with Doris's doctors and typing up lists of medications and getting more involved with coordinating the various treatments. At one point she was spending nearly everyday with Doris, and Doris is not even a good friend. Things finally came to a crisis and a caretaker had to be hired, someone who drives her around and does some housework. Mom still helps out a bit just not everyday.
I don't know what the answer is but mom moved herself into a retirement village. She gave up her 3 bedroom house and moved into a condo. When the time comes she will be able to live there with hired assistance. Both of her kids live thousands of miles away so she made plans. And it doesn't hurt to have a really good friend network.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:27 PM on July 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
That's true. At the same time I think everyone kind of does need a plan for safe, supported aging with contingencies for reduced mobility, financial challenges, etc. A shitty relationship shouldn't be your plan, but yeah, if you're single and staying that way, either bank a ton of money and have a trusted person who can be your advocate, or maybe begin defining some solutions like the cohousing ones.
posted by Miko at 7:27 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:27 PM on July 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't know what the answer is but mom moved herself into a retirement village
Yeah, and I worry about people not having the money for that. Specifically, me not having the money for that.
posted by Miko at 7:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, and I worry about people not having the money for that. Specifically, me not having the money for that.
posted by Miko at 7:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Bank a ton of money? I wish. What are women up to now, 77 cents on the dollar?
Right there with you, jenfullmoon and Don Pepino.
posted by Melismata at 7:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
Right there with you, jenfullmoon and Don Pepino.
posted by Melismata at 7:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
My friend's idea is called The Punk-Rock Retirement Community. It doesn't sound bad, actually. Samovars for tea, good strong coffee available all day, beer and liquor for all, rice cookers everywhere, absolutely constant eating, and of course we pool our libraries and everybody's in a band. We'd have to get a big warehouse somewhere cheap like West Virginia. But that's fine--we're old, so no need to go outside when it's snowy. Hit me up in memail if you are interested in exploring the many fine amenities at the Punk-Rock Retirement Community, should such a thing ever manifest.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [44 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 7:29 PM on July 24, 2015 [44 favorites]
Why that's easy Miko! You just build a time machine, go back to 1960's California, buy a 3 bedroom house for $19000, and hold onto it until you are ready to retire.
Me, I am preparing myself to die in this house. Some day we really need to rip out the bathtubs and put in shower stalls. And hand rails on the stairs would be nice. And if my husband should die before me and I cannot afford to keep an intact roof over my head and someone to mow the lawn, I plan to kill myself.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:34 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
Me, I am preparing myself to die in this house. Some day we really need to rip out the bathtubs and put in shower stalls. And hand rails on the stairs would be nice. And if my husband should die before me and I cannot afford to keep an intact roof over my head and someone to mow the lawn, I plan to kill myself.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:34 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
wow this thread got depressing.
posted by sweetkid at 7:36 PM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sweetkid at 7:36 PM on July 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't see this discussion as depressing, more like pragmatic. Both of my grandmothers lived well into their 90s and they were both in nursing homes for years. I decided years ago I don't want to end up in a nursing home. I would rather end my life when I can no longer live on my own. I don't think there should be any stigma attached to making plans to be responsible for yourself and not become a burden to your family or society.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:48 PM on July 24, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:48 PM on July 24, 2015 [16 favorites]
I have lots of stories of men I've known who took what they wanted from me without ever feeling any obligation to show me some care, or even try to relieve whatever pain they caused me, but it would be too depressing and upsetting for me to share them. More and more over the past several years I've realized how much garbage I've taken from people all my life, not only from men whom I've been romantically involved with, but from a number of my female friends who treated me like a servant. I grew up with two much older abusive brothers, and my parents basically trained me to take abuse because my mother claimed there was nothing that could be done about it and I should just turn the other cheek when anyone hurt me and be nice so as not to make things worse, and my father denied (and still denies) that their behaviour was even a problem, because my brothers' efforts to hurt and humiliate me every chance they got and laughing uproariously over it was "just them having fun with me". I don't believe for a minute that if I'd been the young adult daughter and treating my adolescent brothers like crap that I wouldn't have been disciplined for it, but they were boys and boys get to do what they want while girls are expected to just deal. What can a 13-year-old girl do when her 20-year-old brother reads her diary and then quotes phrases from it to her and laughs loudly about how stupid she is for writing them, and slaps her around if she says anything nasty back? What can a 13-year-old who's in that situation do when she asks for a lock on her bedroom door and her mother says, "Oh no, we're a family, we don't lock each other out"? Or if she's having trouble with mean kids at school and her mother just tells her to be nice and to be a good friend in return?
After growing up with abuse at home and being picked on at school and being told to just take it all, I never learned whatever coping skills were necessary to deal with garbage from people. I learned instead to feel humiliated and worthless and to just keep trying to please, to never keep track of how much I did for people or to expect a fair return. And then as I got older I found it so hard to find people I really connected with that when I did find someone I'd cling to whatever good there was, no matter how little there was, in order to have that tiny bit of companionship and intimacy. All this has left me very vulnerable to manipulation and to being used for whatever I could give.
So hell yes, I've done emotional labour and time and time again been the person who gave far more than 50%. Like the friend who thought it was "too far" to travel the half hour to my place and so for the six years we were friends I always travelled the half hour to her neighbourhood. Then she'd be late meeting me at the place that was a five-minute walk from her apartment, not bother to apologize, and then expect me to listen to her bitch about how someone had been late for her. She was constantly asking me to do things for her, to sew for her, to help paint her apartment, and she never offered to do anything for me in return, and then would expect me to listen to her carry on about how people inconvenienced her. Or there was the ex who felt entitled to disappear on a day when we'd agreed to do something or just cut me off entirely, because it was too inconvenient to call me or he felt "too uncomfortable" to see me due to whatever issues we were having. We saw each other on and off for 12 years and during that time he never once celebrated a Valentine's Day with me and only once made any effort to celebrate my birthday with me (he came to my place, gave me an unwrapped fancy journal for a present, and ate a meal I had cooked). Whenever I complained about it or got angry with him at all, he'd become furious, yell at me for being upset about it, say it "wasn't nice to hold grudges" and that "people forget things". It wasn't even as though these were my only issues with these people. There are many, many more examples of how these two people and as well as a lot of others used me.
And then there were my brothers, who have continued to be total assholes to me through the decades and who thought it acceptable to call me stupid and make insulting jokes. Whenever I tried to tell them something they said was objectionable I just got yelled down and told I was wrong. I bought them Christmas presents, even though they never gave me anything any more (their wives/girlfriends bought my gift, but I gave the wife/girlfriend a gift too, so it was give two gifts, get one back). I also doted on their children and bought the kids birthday and Christmas presents, even during the years that I barely had enough to eat. My brothers badmouthed me to their children, with the result that a few of them have grown up to disrespect me.
When I hit 40, I hit a wall. All those years of ill-treatment plus the chronic fatigue issues I developed at 33 have left me emotionally and physically exhausted and unwilling to take crap from anyone. I just started to refuse to meet people more than halfway on anything, and would kick people out of my life entirely if they treated me badly. I have as little as possible to do with my brothers (I see them at family dos once or twice a year and then don't speak to them at all), and when my parents try to guilt me about it I threaten to hang up on them unless they cut it out. When I realized that a formerly close friend whom I once was in daily contact with had tapered off her responsiveness until she was only responding to maybe one email out of ten, I stopped contacting her altogether. When I realized that I regularly commented on my family's Facebook pages but none of them ever commented on mine (even when my house got robbed, when I got hit by a car, when I lost my job, when the basement flooded, when a tenant of mine screwed me over by disappearing owing me 5 months' rent and leaving his apartment in a disgusting mess that took months to clean up... not a single word, kind or otherwise), I more or less stopped commenting on theirs.
Drawing boundaries like this has pretty much killed what little emotional/social life I had and means that I'm now alone all the time, and I do mean all the time. I work at home, I live alone, and I'm alone all day, all night, for weeks and even months on end. Once every few months a friend suggests we have lunch, and I take them up on it. I believe I've spent time with others socially just three times so far this year: a niece's baby shower, and two lunches with friends. It sucks to live this way. I wouldn't even call it living, really. But it's still better than putting so much of myself into a so-called "friendship" or "relationship", and getting next to nothing back. I just can't do it anymore.
posted by orange swan at 7:49 PM on July 24, 2015 [77 favorites]
After growing up with abuse at home and being picked on at school and being told to just take it all, I never learned whatever coping skills were necessary to deal with garbage from people. I learned instead to feel humiliated and worthless and to just keep trying to please, to never keep track of how much I did for people or to expect a fair return. And then as I got older I found it so hard to find people I really connected with that when I did find someone I'd cling to whatever good there was, no matter how little there was, in order to have that tiny bit of companionship and intimacy. All this has left me very vulnerable to manipulation and to being used for whatever I could give.
So hell yes, I've done emotional labour and time and time again been the person who gave far more than 50%. Like the friend who thought it was "too far" to travel the half hour to my place and so for the six years we were friends I always travelled the half hour to her neighbourhood. Then she'd be late meeting me at the place that was a five-minute walk from her apartment, not bother to apologize, and then expect me to listen to her bitch about how someone had been late for her. She was constantly asking me to do things for her, to sew for her, to help paint her apartment, and she never offered to do anything for me in return, and then would expect me to listen to her carry on about how people inconvenienced her. Or there was the ex who felt entitled to disappear on a day when we'd agreed to do something or just cut me off entirely, because it was too inconvenient to call me or he felt "too uncomfortable" to see me due to whatever issues we were having. We saw each other on and off for 12 years and during that time he never once celebrated a Valentine's Day with me and only once made any effort to celebrate my birthday with me (he came to my place, gave me an unwrapped fancy journal for a present, and ate a meal I had cooked). Whenever I complained about it or got angry with him at all, he'd become furious, yell at me for being upset about it, say it "wasn't nice to hold grudges" and that "people forget things". It wasn't even as though these were my only issues with these people. There are many, many more examples of how these two people and as well as a lot of others used me.
And then there were my brothers, who have continued to be total assholes to me through the decades and who thought it acceptable to call me stupid and make insulting jokes. Whenever I tried to tell them something they said was objectionable I just got yelled down and told I was wrong. I bought them Christmas presents, even though they never gave me anything any more (their wives/girlfriends bought my gift, but I gave the wife/girlfriend a gift too, so it was give two gifts, get one back). I also doted on their children and bought the kids birthday and Christmas presents, even during the years that I barely had enough to eat. My brothers badmouthed me to their children, with the result that a few of them have grown up to disrespect me.
When I hit 40, I hit a wall. All those years of ill-treatment plus the chronic fatigue issues I developed at 33 have left me emotionally and physically exhausted and unwilling to take crap from anyone. I just started to refuse to meet people more than halfway on anything, and would kick people out of my life entirely if they treated me badly. I have as little as possible to do with my brothers (I see them at family dos once or twice a year and then don't speak to them at all), and when my parents try to guilt me about it I threaten to hang up on them unless they cut it out. When I realized that a formerly close friend whom I once was in daily contact with had tapered off her responsiveness until she was only responding to maybe one email out of ten, I stopped contacting her altogether. When I realized that I regularly commented on my family's Facebook pages but none of them ever commented on mine (even when my house got robbed, when I got hit by a car, when I lost my job, when the basement flooded, when a tenant of mine screwed me over by disappearing owing me 5 months' rent and leaving his apartment in a disgusting mess that took months to clean up... not a single word, kind or otherwise), I more or less stopped commenting on theirs.
Drawing boundaries like this has pretty much killed what little emotional/social life I had and means that I'm now alone all the time, and I do mean all the time. I work at home, I live alone, and I'm alone all day, all night, for weeks and even months on end. Once every few months a friend suggests we have lunch, and I take them up on it. I believe I've spent time with others socially just three times so far this year: a niece's baby shower, and two lunches with friends. It sucks to live this way. I wouldn't even call it living, really. But it's still better than putting so much of myself into a so-called "friendship" or "relationship", and getting next to nothing back. I just can't do it anymore.
posted by orange swan at 7:49 PM on July 24, 2015 [77 favorites]
Jesus Christ, Orange Swan. That is horrible.
If it is any comfort at all, know this: you are a fantastic and well-loved MeFite. Your FPPs are always great stuff. You contribute so much to this site. I wish there was some way to send you a real hug because you deserve it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:57 PM on July 24, 2015 [68 favorites]
If it is any comfort at all, know this: you are a fantastic and well-loved MeFite. Your FPPs are always great stuff. You contribute so much to this site. I wish there was some way to send you a real hug because you deserve it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:57 PM on July 24, 2015 [68 favorites]
If it is any comfort at all, know this: you are a fantastic and well-loved MeFite. Your FPPs are always great stuff. You contribute so much to this site. I wish there was some way to send you a real hug because you deserve it.
This, a thousand times over.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [24 favorites]
This, a thousand times over.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [24 favorites]
I want to write all of you birthday cards. And "Thinking of You" cards. And "Just Because" cards.
posted by erratic meatsack at 8:40 PM on July 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by erratic meatsack at 8:40 PM on July 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
I would rather end my life when I can no longer live on my own.
Yup, that's my retirement plan too. Living with depression, I already feel like a burden on my friends even now, when I am still able to take care of all my basic needs. I have no family on this side of the world. It just seems sensible. Ha, funny thought (well, funny to me, but I understand my sense of humour is much blacker than most): I am so well-conditioned to avoid distressing people that I've spent a lot of time thinking about the least upsetting way of implementing my retirement plan. This consideration has also stopped me from implementing it early. So emotional labour's good for something!
posted by Athanassiel at 8:43 PM on July 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yup, that's my retirement plan too. Living with depression, I already feel like a burden on my friends even now, when I am still able to take care of all my basic needs. I have no family on this side of the world. It just seems sensible. Ha, funny thought (well, funny to me, but I understand my sense of humour is much blacker than most): I am so well-conditioned to avoid distressing people that I've spent a lot of time thinking about the least upsetting way of implementing my retirement plan. This consideration has also stopped me from implementing it early. So emotional labour's good for something!
posted by Athanassiel at 8:43 PM on July 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would like to third what SLoG said, orange swan. And add that I really enjoy your blogs, too.
posted by EvaDestruction at 8:47 PM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by EvaDestruction at 8:47 PM on July 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nthing SLoG, orange swan.
Yeah, and I think that part of the problem in nursing (as at least one nurse commented above) is that this is labor they're really doing and is really needed, but it's not fully acknowledged as work that's just as important as checking signs, managing documentation, delivering meds and supportive technologies, and all the other work they do. And so it's also not acknowledged as effort, a limited resource, something that needs appropriate boundaries and should not be exploited, and should be properly compensated for.
With slight modifications, this applies really well to teaching, also. The pastoral aspects of teaching just get shoved under the carpet when it comes to compensation, etc.
posted by bardophile at 10:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, and I think that part of the problem in nursing (as at least one nurse commented above) is that this is labor they're really doing and is really needed, but it's not fully acknowledged as work that's just as important as checking signs, managing documentation, delivering meds and supportive technologies, and all the other work they do. And so it's also not acknowledged as effort, a limited resource, something that needs appropriate boundaries and should not be exploited, and should be properly compensated for.
With slight modifications, this applies really well to teaching, also. The pastoral aspects of teaching just get shoved under the carpet when it comes to compensation, etc.
posted by bardophile at 10:24 PM on July 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
skybluepink: I don't want to let anybody's pain go unwitnessed, even if I can't possibly respond to each individual story.
This - bearing witness to people's pain, in a way that doesn't smooth it over or otherwise minimise it - is SO important. Before true emotional healing can happen, the pain that is already there must first be received. And there is so much pain that needs witnessing. That's one of the reasons threads like this are so transformative. There are so few places in our culture, online or off, where this kind of emotional labour can take place unimpeded. One of my long-term goals in life is to do what I can to create more physical spaces that facilitate this sort of work in a spiritual context. I have a project called the Black Tent Temple (which is unrelated to, but sort of loosely inspired by, the Red Tent Temple movement) that sometimes serves this purpose. It's my way of being the crone I wish to see in the world. (Thank you for that wonderful phrase! I love it so much!)
For more of this sort of feminist consciousness-raising in book form, I recommend Shere Hite's 1987 book Women and Love. She writes about the "unequal emotional contract" in heterosexual love and sex, and the book is filled with heartbreaking but illuminating personal stories from women, much like the ones in this thread. As I understand it, her radical writings met with so much resistance in the US that the author fled to Europe to escape it. I've probably read the book ten times from cover to cover, and I am still blown away by it.
I've also been thinking about the emotional labour demanded from women by strangers in daily life - e.g., random men on the street telling women to smile - and how this relates to employment.
Before I became a feminist, I was unaware of the concept of emotional labour; I just knew that I didn't like having to smile at my service jobs even when I didn't feel like it, especially after I noticed that the men didn't get admonished as often as the women did for not smiling. (This is one reason I found a home within the goth subculture: here was a community where I wasn't ever expected to smile if I didn't feel like it. Funny how much more smiling I did, though, after I found a community where I felt free to just be myself...)
Once you learn to identify these patterns, though, you are forever changed. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you can't un-see them. To take just one job-related example, I once heard overheard a conversation in which a job applicant was told: "We don't want someone who's going to work here just for the paycheck." In my mind, I translated this as a class privilege screening question. I mean, in a world where it's difficult to meet your basic needs without a job, it's not as if we have a real choice, right? In other words, if you're applying for the job because you need the money, you will first have to do enough emotional labour to convince this employer that oh, yes, of course you'd take the job just for the sheer love of it, even if you didn't need the money. Here's an area in which I think men do quite a bit of emotional labour.
I'm also reminded of an article by C.A. L'Hirondelle about work-related emotional labour. One thing I love is that she mentions self-care as a form of unrecognised, unrewarded, overlooked, and often unappreciated emotional labour. Especially for people with disabilities and health challenges. Yes!
posted by velvet winter at 10:42 PM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
This - bearing witness to people's pain, in a way that doesn't smooth it over or otherwise minimise it - is SO important. Before true emotional healing can happen, the pain that is already there must first be received. And there is so much pain that needs witnessing. That's one of the reasons threads like this are so transformative. There are so few places in our culture, online or off, where this kind of emotional labour can take place unimpeded. One of my long-term goals in life is to do what I can to create more physical spaces that facilitate this sort of work in a spiritual context. I have a project called the Black Tent Temple (which is unrelated to, but sort of loosely inspired by, the Red Tent Temple movement) that sometimes serves this purpose. It's my way of being the crone I wish to see in the world. (Thank you for that wonderful phrase! I love it so much!)
For more of this sort of feminist consciousness-raising in book form, I recommend Shere Hite's 1987 book Women and Love. She writes about the "unequal emotional contract" in heterosexual love and sex, and the book is filled with heartbreaking but illuminating personal stories from women, much like the ones in this thread. As I understand it, her radical writings met with so much resistance in the US that the author fled to Europe to escape it. I've probably read the book ten times from cover to cover, and I am still blown away by it.
I've also been thinking about the emotional labour demanded from women by strangers in daily life - e.g., random men on the street telling women to smile - and how this relates to employment.
Before I became a feminist, I was unaware of the concept of emotional labour; I just knew that I didn't like having to smile at my service jobs even when I didn't feel like it, especially after I noticed that the men didn't get admonished as often as the women did for not smiling. (This is one reason I found a home within the goth subculture: here was a community where I wasn't ever expected to smile if I didn't feel like it. Funny how much more smiling I did, though, after I found a community where I felt free to just be myself...)
Once you learn to identify these patterns, though, you are forever changed. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you can't un-see them. To take just one job-related example, I once heard overheard a conversation in which a job applicant was told: "We don't want someone who's going to work here just for the paycheck." In my mind, I translated this as a class privilege screening question. I mean, in a world where it's difficult to meet your basic needs without a job, it's not as if we have a real choice, right? In other words, if you're applying for the job because you need the money, you will first have to do enough emotional labour to convince this employer that oh, yes, of course you'd take the job just for the sheer love of it, even if you didn't need the money. Here's an area in which I think men do quite a bit of emotional labour.
I'm also reminded of an article by C.A. L'Hirondelle about work-related emotional labour. One thing I love is that she mentions self-care as a form of unrecognised, unrewarded, overlooked, and often unappreciated emotional labour. Especially for people with disabilities and health challenges. Yes!
posted by velvet winter at 10:42 PM on July 24, 2015 [53 favorites]
Wow, velvet winter. Your comment gave me a lightbulb moment, and a means for explaining this shit to the leftist men in my life. I'm going to start telling them that uncompensated and unreciprocated emotional labour is fucking wage theft.
posted by skybluepink at 12:31 AM on July 25, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 12:31 AM on July 25, 2015 [39 favorites]
I think this mutual caring is one of the things many older women get out of churches.
posted by Ambient Echo at 2:19 AM on July 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Ambient Echo at 2:19 AM on July 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
I am a 30-something woman, and it's a thing I get out of my (extremely progressive) church.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:11 AM on July 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:11 AM on July 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
True, true, shouldn't limit it by age like that. I do miss my Berkeley UU congregation.
posted by Ambient Echo at 3:14 AM on July 25, 2015
posted by Ambient Echo at 3:14 AM on July 25, 2015
With slight modifications, this applies really well to teaching, also.
This. I'm a high school special education teacher for kids with emotional disabilities. I do typical teacher work, but because all of my kids have long histories of school failure and dropping out and hospitalizations and suicide attempts, what I'm really there to do is to get kids to buy in to coming to school. To get them out of their beds and back into the world.
The only way to do this is to be able to read the kids and follow their cues; by taking their emotional states into account first and foremost.
I can tell by the way a kid gets off the bus if I need to scrap my quiz to play Grammar Bingo (which is obviously STILL a quiz). The best teachers I work with are capable of using a massive amount of emotional labor (and creativity) to help kids succeed.
The biggest source of staff friction is the division between those of us who guide our classes using emotional labor, and those who define success by writing 5-page papers.
And yes, it is absolutely a clear gender split. Our male teachers complain that too many kids get stomachaches and miss too many classes. They see NO connection between their single-minded focus of Plow Through Those Worksheets and complete inability to react to/shift gears for students' emotional states with anxiety-based tummyaches. No. It's all about taking those tests, and instead of working 1:1 with struggling students, they just fail them and let the kid become another teacher's problem next year (that's if the kid returns to school).
posted by kinetic at 3:43 AM on July 25, 2015 [42 favorites]
This. I'm a high school special education teacher for kids with emotional disabilities. I do typical teacher work, but because all of my kids have long histories of school failure and dropping out and hospitalizations and suicide attempts, what I'm really there to do is to get kids to buy in to coming to school. To get them out of their beds and back into the world.
The only way to do this is to be able to read the kids and follow their cues; by taking their emotional states into account first and foremost.
I can tell by the way a kid gets off the bus if I need to scrap my quiz to play Grammar Bingo (which is obviously STILL a quiz). The best teachers I work with are capable of using a massive amount of emotional labor (and creativity) to help kids succeed.
The biggest source of staff friction is the division between those of us who guide our classes using emotional labor, and those who define success by writing 5-page papers.
And yes, it is absolutely a clear gender split. Our male teachers complain that too many kids get stomachaches and miss too many classes. They see NO connection between their single-minded focus of Plow Through Those Worksheets and complete inability to react to/shift gears for students' emotional states with anxiety-based tummyaches. No. It's all about taking those tests, and instead of working 1:1 with struggling students, they just fail them and let the kid become another teacher's problem next year (that's if the kid returns to school).
posted by kinetic at 3:43 AM on July 25, 2015 [42 favorites]
There's no compensation mechanism for burn out.
posted by infini at 3:58 AM on July 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by infini at 3:58 AM on July 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
So I'm looking for ways to cut unnecessary emotional labor out of my life and it occurs to me that I hit on a genius one a few weeks back. I was yet again having my picture taken for yet another required picture I.D. The photographer took the shot, looked, recoiled, and turned the screen at me so that I could request another take. Normally I'd've steeled myself and looked and asked her to re-take the picture twice more before giving up, but this time I said, "Yeah, thanks, I don't care, it's not going to get better, let's roll with that whatever it is." I do this Charlie Manson thing with my eyes in every I.D. picture, and there seems to be no help for it. It is out of my conscious control. I look like a psycho on my driver's license, so I never speed because I know if I get pulled over by a nervous cop and they really look at that picture, I'm going to jail, no question.
So then they printed the little card and handed it to me, and I didn't look at the stupid card, either. I just put it in its little sleeve and put it in my wallet. Every morning I show it to the bus driver. I still don't know what the picture looks like. I don't have to. I'm not ever looking at the goddamn thing. Why should I? Another thing I don't have to do is stare into the mirror and try to find problems to remedy. It's not my responsibility to know WTF I look like. I don't care WTF I look like. I didn't make this face, I ended up with it, is all. I don't have to deal with it, I live behind it. If anybody in front of it doesn't like the way it's assembled, they don't have to look at it either. Whatever. I don't care. It's not my problem. I'm going to look in the mirror when it's fun, when I'm putting on rock-out make-up or my new-year's hat or what have you. Or occasionally when I want to say, "hiya, pal! good morning to you!"
posted by Don Pepino at 4:50 AM on July 25, 2015 [56 favorites]
So then they printed the little card and handed it to me, and I didn't look at the stupid card, either. I just put it in its little sleeve and put it in my wallet. Every morning I show it to the bus driver. I still don't know what the picture looks like. I don't have to. I'm not ever looking at the goddamn thing. Why should I? Another thing I don't have to do is stare into the mirror and try to find problems to remedy. It's not my responsibility to know WTF I look like. I don't care WTF I look like. I didn't make this face, I ended up with it, is all. I don't have to deal with it, I live behind it. If anybody in front of it doesn't like the way it's assembled, they don't have to look at it either. Whatever. I don't care. It's not my problem. I'm going to look in the mirror when it's fun, when I'm putting on rock-out make-up or my new-year's hat or what have you. Or occasionally when I want to say, "hiya, pal! good morning to you!"
posted by Don Pepino at 4:50 AM on July 25, 2015 [56 favorites]
But....someday I will be in deep shit and all alone and screwed, that's just the truth.
Given that men leave their sick partners at a much higher rate than women do and also die first it's likely that a lot of partnered women will end up in this case, too.
Life offers no promises no matter what you do.
posted by winna at 6:35 AM on July 25, 2015 [27 favorites]
Given that men leave their sick partners at a much higher rate than women do and also die first it's likely that a lot of partnered women will end up in this case, too.
Life offers no promises no matter what you do.
posted by winna at 6:35 AM on July 25, 2015 [27 favorites]
On mirrors, two things:
1. Oh god yes. I mean, people who enjoy looking at their wonderful selves in mirrors, go you, but what I enjoy is that right at this very moment, I could have like a giant ink splotch on my forehead or booger stuck to my cheek, and I do not know or care or ever need to care. If I randomly notice or someone out in the world feels compelled to open up their yap about it rather than minding their own business, I guess I'll take care of it. Or not, because I. don't. care. and I was not put on earth to be inoffensive to the eye or match the world's couch. I wish I had known that 40 years sooner than I figured it out.
2. I live in an ancient decrepit farmhouse in which the kitchen is configured so the sink faces a wall opposite the front door. There's a mirror hung (permanently, like a backsplash) over the sink, and occasionally someone will come in and say, Wow, weird place for a mirror. And I'm like, yeah, I'm guessing that was so that the women who worked themselves to fucking death there could, while washing dishes, a) also keep an eye on their kids, b) also see if anybody came to the door, c) also make sure that their houseguests were happy and attended to, and d) occasionally take a moment between scouring grease-encrusted pans to gaze at themselves and wonder, "How can a nice person like you have a life that SUCKS THIS MUCH?"
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:55 AM on July 25, 2015 [39 favorites]
1. Oh god yes. I mean, people who enjoy looking at their wonderful selves in mirrors, go you, but what I enjoy is that right at this very moment, I could have like a giant ink splotch on my forehead or booger stuck to my cheek, and I do not know or care or ever need to care. If I randomly notice or someone out in the world feels compelled to open up their yap about it rather than minding their own business, I guess I'll take care of it. Or not, because I. don't. care. and I was not put on earth to be inoffensive to the eye or match the world's couch. I wish I had known that 40 years sooner than I figured it out.
2. I live in an ancient decrepit farmhouse in which the kitchen is configured so the sink faces a wall opposite the front door. There's a mirror hung (permanently, like a backsplash) over the sink, and occasionally someone will come in and say, Wow, weird place for a mirror. And I'm like, yeah, I'm guessing that was so that the women who worked themselves to fucking death there could, while washing dishes, a) also keep an eye on their kids, b) also see if anybody came to the door, c) also make sure that their houseguests were happy and attended to, and d) occasionally take a moment between scouring grease-encrusted pans to gaze at themselves and wonder, "How can a nice person like you have a life that SUCKS THIS MUCH?"
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:55 AM on July 25, 2015 [39 favorites]
Life offers no promises no matter what you do
Yes. I hate those TV ads that feature prescriptions for seniors. They always show slim, mobile, cheerful folk running through fields and shit. I'm watching my mother's friends enter their 80's and I don't think any of them are capable running through fields. A number of them need walkers or wheelchairs. At least two very wealthy women lost everything and now live with their (begrudging) children. One has lost her mind and lives with her children. etc, etc, etc.
The ones that really break my heart are the 2 women of my generation (that I know of through other people) who gave up careers and active social lives, and in one case her husband, after giving birth to children with CP. I don't know what will happen; I don't know how they plan for the future.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:11 AM on July 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes. I hate those TV ads that feature prescriptions for seniors. They always show slim, mobile, cheerful folk running through fields and shit. I'm watching my mother's friends enter their 80's and I don't think any of them are capable running through fields. A number of them need walkers or wheelchairs. At least two very wealthy women lost everything and now live with their (begrudging) children. One has lost her mind and lives with her children. etc, etc, etc.
The ones that really break my heart are the 2 women of my generation (that I know of through other people) who gave up careers and active social lives, and in one case her husband, after giving birth to children with CP. I don't know what will happen; I don't know how they plan for the future.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:11 AM on July 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's no compensation mechanism for burn out.
I disagree. What compensation against burnout looks like is this: generous vacation, family, and medical leave policies that are actually followed; ie, employees must take them and employers do not impose any sense of guilt or create unrealistic obstacles to taking them. Regular retreats that allow for reflection, refocus, and solution-finding. Work rotations that regularly allow people respite from the most emotionally intensive forms of labor, so they can shift their focus for a week a month, for example, for documentation work, consultation, research, giving tutorials, etc. Some degree of employee power over work assignments, job structures, and planning allows people to both customize work to what will best suit them, but to also feel that they have an element of control in the workplanning process, rather than feeling like a victim of whatever higher-ups decide. And I think simple recognition of the emotional labor taking place keeps people feeling better - unacknowledged work, or lack of acknowledgement of the toll of work, in itself contributes to burnout.
I definitely get that burnout is a real thing and a serious issue, but I don't believe it can't be prevented. It's partly because we don't take it seriously, as a health issue, that we don't more widely implement the structures that could help limit it.
posted by Miko at 7:21 AM on July 25, 2015 [80 favorites]
I disagree. What compensation against burnout looks like is this: generous vacation, family, and medical leave policies that are actually followed; ie, employees must take them and employers do not impose any sense of guilt or create unrealistic obstacles to taking them. Regular retreats that allow for reflection, refocus, and solution-finding. Work rotations that regularly allow people respite from the most emotionally intensive forms of labor, so they can shift their focus for a week a month, for example, for documentation work, consultation, research, giving tutorials, etc. Some degree of employee power over work assignments, job structures, and planning allows people to both customize work to what will best suit them, but to also feel that they have an element of control in the workplanning process, rather than feeling like a victim of whatever higher-ups decide. And I think simple recognition of the emotional labor taking place keeps people feeling better - unacknowledged work, or lack of acknowledgement of the toll of work, in itself contributes to burnout.
I definitely get that burnout is a real thing and a serious issue, but I don't believe it can't be prevented. It's partly because we don't take it seriously, as a health issue, that we don't more widely implement the structures that could help limit it.
posted by Miko at 7:21 AM on July 25, 2015 [80 favorites]
What compensation against burnout looks like is this...
Yes to all that, plus respect for employees' time and an explicit focus on self-care. The human-services organizations of which I've been a part that have seemed least prone to burnout (and, not coincidentally, much better at providing effective care to clients) are those in which employees are basically chased out of the office when their shift ends and required to take flex-time if some emergency does keep them late, and in which self-care was explicitly addressed and encouraged in trainings, staff meetings, debriefings, etc. Organizations that, even with the best of intentions, create a mindset that only the clients'/patients'/students' needs matter and that staff should not have any needs of their own set up their employees for burnout.
posted by jaguar at 8:01 AM on July 25, 2015 [18 favorites]
Yes to all that, plus respect for employees' time and an explicit focus on self-care. The human-services organizations of which I've been a part that have seemed least prone to burnout (and, not coincidentally, much better at providing effective care to clients) are those in which employees are basically chased out of the office when their shift ends and required to take flex-time if some emergency does keep them late, and in which self-care was explicitly addressed and encouraged in trainings, staff meetings, debriefings, etc. Organizations that, even with the best of intentions, create a mindset that only the clients'/patients'/students' needs matter and that staff should not have any needs of their own set up their employees for burnout.
posted by jaguar at 8:01 AM on July 25, 2015 [18 favorites]
Yeah, those long summer vacations that teachers get so much flak for? That's the only way to recuperate from the emotional demands of the school year.
posted by bardophile at 8:53 AM on July 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by bardophile at 8:53 AM on July 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
Well that and they're not really vacations. I grew up around a lot of teachers, and while sure the workload lessened in the summer they were still doing lesson plans, attending conferences and courses, etc. (A couple would also keep tabs on certain students through the summer, so that emotional labour continued).
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:14 AM on July 25, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:14 AM on July 25, 2015 [26 favorites]
They're also usually unpaid "vacations." Even though today payrolls are often adjusted to send checks for 12 months, it's really that 10 months' pay is spread over an unpaid summer period.
posted by Miko at 11:00 AM on July 25, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by Miko at 11:00 AM on July 25, 2015 [25 favorites]
skybluepink: Here is an article that could be helpful in those much-needed conversations with lefty men about uncompensated and unreciprocated emotional labour as wage theft. The author uses the phrase "affective currency" to describe the kind of unpaid emotional labour done on social media and web forums - basically, "working for likes." And it's framed in a way that may be eye-opening for people who have trouble identifying the ways emotional labour happens elsewhere. There's even a mention of a case from the late 1990s where AOL chatroom moderators sued the company for back wages, and eventually won.
posted by velvet winter at 11:08 AM on July 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by velvet winter at 11:08 AM on July 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, those long summer vacations that teachers get so much flak for? That's the only way to recuperate from the emotional demands of the school year.
I completely agree, having seen it firsthand. But there are lots of jobs with tons of emotional labor that don't get this kind of break. And lots and lots of burn-out in them. Especially of women who are usually doing more emotional labor on the job and at home, in addition to doing more of the less emotional second-shift household labor.
They're also usually unpaid "vacations." Even though today payrolls are often adjusted to send checks for 12 months, it's really that 10 months' pay is spread over an unpaid summer period.
There's nothing to prevent this (or a shortened version of this) from being the national norm for everyone. But that would be.....French.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:17 AM on July 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
I completely agree, having seen it firsthand. But there are lots of jobs with tons of emotional labor that don't get this kind of break. And lots and lots of burn-out in them. Especially of women who are usually doing more emotional labor on the job and at home, in addition to doing more of the less emotional second-shift household labor.
They're also usually unpaid "vacations." Even though today payrolls are often adjusted to send checks for 12 months, it's really that 10 months' pay is spread over an unpaid summer period.
There's nothing to prevent this (or a shortened version of this) from being the national norm for everyone. But that would be.....French.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:17 AM on July 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
I completely agree, having seen it firsthand. But there are lots of jobs with tons of emotional labor that don't get this kind of break.
True but rather than be in a "who has it worst" competition, we can work on uniting to advocate that burnout is real and that all draining jobs need to develop such solutions. Our society's general hostility to teachers for their time away from work is an sign of the opposition to taking seriously the idea that there is a toll to under- and uncompensated emotional labor .
posted by Miko at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2015 [23 favorites]
True but rather than be in a "who has it worst" competition, we can work on uniting to advocate that burnout is real and that all draining jobs need to develop such solutions. Our society's general hostility to teachers for their time away from work is an sign of the opposition to taking seriously the idea that there is a toll to under- and uncompensated emotional labor .
posted by Miko at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2015 [23 favorites]
They're also usually unpaid "vacations." Even though today payrolls are often adjusted to send checks for 12 months, it's really that 10 months' pay is spread over an unpaid summer period.
The school board where my best friend's (late) mother did her final teaching gig did a great thing called 3-over-4. You get paid for three years, and take the fourth year off. Your pay for three years is spread out over all four, so you get a steady income the whole time. (She and her partner spent most of her year off in Provence). And if memory serves--I may be remembering incorrectly--you are guaranteed to still have your job for the fifth year.
It seems to me like that is an ideal solution for most jobs. Frees up space for new people to get on board/learn new skills, gives much needed R&R, etc. Then again I'm one of those socialist heathens who's all over a 4-day workweek for all, universal basic income, etc.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:54 PM on July 25, 2015 [40 favorites]
The school board where my best friend's (late) mother did her final teaching gig did a great thing called 3-over-4. You get paid for three years, and take the fourth year off. Your pay for three years is spread out over all four, so you get a steady income the whole time. (She and her partner spent most of her year off in Provence). And if memory serves--I may be remembering incorrectly--you are guaranteed to still have your job for the fifth year.
It seems to me like that is an ideal solution for most jobs. Frees up space for new people to get on board/learn new skills, gives much needed R&R, etc. Then again I'm one of those socialist heathens who's all over a 4-day workweek for all, universal basic income, etc.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:54 PM on July 25, 2015 [40 favorites]
I would 3-over-4 in a heartbeat. I don't think it would adapt to my field, though. Well, it would require a whole lot of culture change, which I guess is true for all of it - but I think that works best in certification-based fields.
posted by Miko at 2:08 PM on July 25, 2015
posted by Miko at 2:08 PM on July 25, 2015
Well, now it's not so much depressing as derailed into a discussion of vacation time, which while it's an important issue is not really what this thread used to be about.
posted by languagehat at 2:09 PM on July 25, 2015
posted by languagehat at 2:09 PM on July 25, 2015
derailed into a discussion of vacation time
Did you miss the part where we're discussing it in the context of instituting employment structures that would mitigate burnout from jobs that presently demand uncompensated emotional labor? This is related.
Plus, it constitutes about 10 comments of a 1300-comment thread. I'm sure another tangent will be along soon, but in the meantime, this is all part of the bigger picture of what happens under patriarchy.
posted by Miko at 2:13 PM on July 25, 2015 [20 favorites]
Did you miss the part where we're discussing it in the context of instituting employment structures that would mitigate burnout from jobs that presently demand uncompensated emotional labor? This is related.
Plus, it constitutes about 10 comments of a 1300-comment thread. I'm sure another tangent will be along soon, but in the meantime, this is all part of the bigger picture of what happens under patriarchy.
posted by Miko at 2:13 PM on July 25, 2015 [20 favorites]
A huge component of secondary trauma (which, left untreated, is a huge predictor of burnout) among mental-health clinicians and direct-client-contact social services people, the huge majority of whom are women, is how devalued the caring fields are, even when they're compensated. Agencies and organizations can run employees (again, mostly female employees) into the ground in the same way that partners and families do, with the exact same bullshit gender-role logic: "Because of your gender, you are supposed to care about everyone else, therefore caring for everyone else isn't really work, and you don't need to be respected or adequately compensated for your time and expertise because you're just doing what you'd 'naturally' do anyway."
My current organization keeps sending out requests for staff to use their free time to volunteer with people in need. My paid job is working with clients with Medicaid or no insurance who have severe persistent mental illnesses and who are generally homeless or need a great deal of wrap-around support to live on their own. My organization is basically asking me to use my free time to volunteer to do the same thing I do when I am on the clock. I think it is a complete and utter manipulative ploy to exploit a captive audience of people who have shown ourselves willing to help others. It's the workplace equivalent of the "vacation" in which one parent is doing all the childcare.
Respect for your employees' need for downtime is just as important as respect for your partner's need for downtime.
posted by jaguar at 2:38 PM on July 25, 2015 [37 favorites]
My current organization keeps sending out requests for staff to use their free time to volunteer with people in need. My paid job is working with clients with Medicaid or no insurance who have severe persistent mental illnesses and who are generally homeless or need a great deal of wrap-around support to live on their own. My organization is basically asking me to use my free time to volunteer to do the same thing I do when I am on the clock. I think it is a complete and utter manipulative ploy to exploit a captive audience of people who have shown ourselves willing to help others. It's the workplace equivalent of the "vacation" in which one parent is doing all the childcare.
Respect for your employees' need for downtime is just as important as respect for your partner's need for downtime.
posted by jaguar at 2:38 PM on July 25, 2015 [37 favorites]
This is related.
I alluded to France for a reason — it's common to make fun of their national vacation, but I don't think it's an accident that they also provide excellent pre- and post-natal health-care and publicly funded childcare. And it's that way despite French society remaining rather sexist, or at least very gendered, by most accounts. I think there have also been some mefi threads on reforms of family & paternal leave policies in Scandanavian countries that illustrate another way we could make a better distribution of emotional labor public policy, and prevent employers from undermining it. (IIRC, some go as far as to dis-incentivize an unequal distribution.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:40 PM on July 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
I alluded to France for a reason — it's common to make fun of their national vacation, but I don't think it's an accident that they also provide excellent pre- and post-natal health-care and publicly funded childcare. And it's that way despite French society remaining rather sexist, or at least very gendered, by most accounts. I think there have also been some mefi threads on reforms of family & paternal leave policies in Scandanavian countries that illustrate another way we could make a better distribution of emotional labor public policy, and prevent employers from undermining it. (IIRC, some go as far as to dis-incentivize an unequal distribution.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:40 PM on July 25, 2015 [10 favorites]
I've been thinking about a paradox. On the one hand, men seem to be the more emotional gender, or at least to be more prone to letting emotions overwhelm reason to the point of committing violent crime (murder, rape, domestic violence, etc.). But on the other hand, the more subtle level of emotional engagement discussed in this thread tends to be beyond their notice or interest. I just don't understand how both things can exist in the same brain.
Which, when you consider the above, makes the emotional policing that men do even more bizarre and galling than it is on its face. Every woman on the planet knows what I'm talking about: The automatic "Calm down, you're overreacting" refusal to take a woman's concerns seriously, but if a man says the same thing, boom, attention must be paid.
posted by HotToddy at 2:50 PM on July 25, 2015 [46 favorites]
Which, when you consider the above, makes the emotional policing that men do even more bizarre and galling than it is on its face. Every woman on the planet knows what I'm talking about: The automatic "Calm down, you're overreacting" refusal to take a woman's concerns seriously, but if a man says the same thing, boom, attention must be paid.
posted by HotToddy at 2:50 PM on July 25, 2015 [46 favorites]
And it's that way despite French society remaining rather sexist, or at least very gendered, by most accounts.
From what I remember of my women's studies reading (which means others should absolutely correct me if I'm wrong), feminism in France in the 70s and 80s was centered more on demanding respect for the feminine (which fit with Catholic traditions of venerating Mary) while feminism in the US was centered more on opening up traditionally male values/traits/jobs to women (which fit in more with US emphasis on capitalism). Both have positive and negative aspects and are probably unbalanced by themselves, and I think there's been a positive course-correction brewing in American feminism toward re-valuing the feminine. (Julia Serano talks about the idea of how we've devalued femininity regardless of which gender is expressing it in Whipping Girl, too.)
posted by jaguar at 3:00 PM on July 25, 2015 [19 favorites]
From what I remember of my women's studies reading (which means others should absolutely correct me if I'm wrong), feminism in France in the 70s and 80s was centered more on demanding respect for the feminine (which fit with Catholic traditions of venerating Mary) while feminism in the US was centered more on opening up traditionally male values/traits/jobs to women (which fit in more with US emphasis on capitalism). Both have positive and negative aspects and are probably unbalanced by themselves, and I think there's been a positive course-correction brewing in American feminism toward re-valuing the feminine. (Julia Serano talks about the idea of how we've devalued femininity regardless of which gender is expressing it in Whipping Girl, too.)
posted by jaguar at 3:00 PM on July 25, 2015 [19 favorites]
I've been thinking about a paradox.
It's not a paradox. Toddlers are more emotional and explosive than adults and even other children, and yet no one looks them for nuanced engagement and empathy, precisely because they're little balls of rapidly flucuating emotion who can't empathize at all and are often barely aware of the independent existence of other people. On a very general level, the same principle applies.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 3:01 PM on July 25, 2015 [37 favorites]
It's not a paradox. Toddlers are more emotional and explosive than adults and even other children, and yet no one looks them for nuanced engagement and empathy, precisely because they're little balls of rapidly flucuating emotion who can't empathize at all and are often barely aware of the independent existence of other people. On a very general level, the same principle applies.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 3:01 PM on July 25, 2015 [37 favorites]
I think of it like a kettle of steam under pressure. When I was still trying desperately to be male, I had to cork every emotion. A little bit of amusement could be tolerated, and society in general would allow me to be angry. My wife policed my anger harshly, though. She came from a family where no one ever ever ever got angry. As I've transitioned to woman, I'm allowed so much more range.
I feel so much more human. I remember as a young child being so jealous of the girls because they wouldn't be punished like I was if they had emotions. I know now that they got a raw deal. I see the cost to women.
But if you have to be on guard for any emotional release at all, then, well, you are on guard. And you mock any emotional expression, cause it shores up your walls to have that contempt active. And the pressure increases until they take it out on us.
And I'm not saying any of this to justify how men behave in any way. I'm sorry I gave that impression in the other thread, and I won't do that again. I just thought that my experience might shed some light. (Mods, I'm fine if a trans woman needs to not speak here, please delete this if that's so.)
posted by Ambient Echo at 3:24 PM on July 25, 2015 [29 favorites]
I feel so much more human. I remember as a young child being so jealous of the girls because they wouldn't be punished like I was if they had emotions. I know now that they got a raw deal. I see the cost to women.
But if you have to be on guard for any emotional release at all, then, well, you are on guard. And you mock any emotional expression, cause it shores up your walls to have that contempt active. And the pressure increases until they take it out on us.
And I'm not saying any of this to justify how men behave in any way. I'm sorry I gave that impression in the other thread, and I won't do that again. I just thought that my experience might shed some light. (Mods, I'm fine if a trans woman needs to not speak here, please delete this if that's so.)
posted by Ambient Echo at 3:24 PM on July 25, 2015 [29 favorites]
And then men ask feminists, but why don't you care MORE about men's issues? And feminists say, dude, I agree with you that there are men's issues, why don't you start your own discussion group/book club/whatever? ... and that never happens, because women are supposed to do that for them. They're the activists! They're the ones that care so much!
This reminds me of the unsung women activists in the Ferguson and black lives matter movement. So much of this would not have been possible without women out on the streets, from day one and for the entire last year, marching and organizing and making sure people were fed and doing the work of community organization, so that they could maybe one day stop seeing their sons and brothers and fathers disproportionately killed by police officers. This is important to recognize and remember.
men who won't read the thread when their partners specifically ask them to are showing you where their stand. they're saying that skimming a thread is too much effort
Eh, leaving aside the fact that I mentioned things in this thread that perhaps are less than complimentary to my husband, at this point, this thread is so massive, it’s hard to recommend that friends read it, much less my husband. I get what you’re saying, nadawi, but I don’t know that a man’s refusal to read this thread after it’s thrown down like a gauntlet is necessarily a meaningful measure of anything. I will say this, though: Maybe it’s that my husband is already getting a bit less sick anyway, so he’s more able to do things for himself and us now, but since I mentioned the very specter of emotional labor, my husband seems to have started to try to do more for himself and be more considerate in his requests and actions. I’m wondering if he perhaps looked up babelfish’s original post on The Toast after I mentioned it. Even just reading that might be enough for some guys to get it.
Anyway, this whole thread has me thinking a lot about The Women’s Room, which has been referenced multiple times and which I first picked up and started reading at Girl Scout camp. Girl Scout camp, I’ve thought for a few days now, is perhaps the closest thing to Crone Island that I've experienced. Like others have noted, this thread has me also drawing comparisons to consciousness-raising sessions, which actually friends and I started having in some respect almost a year ago now after Mike Brown was shot in Ferguson, close to where we grew up. It’s both encouraging and sad to me that this is occurring now—encouraging because I feel like I’m becoming conscious of the racism and sexism I was somewhat blind to in the world before, and sad because didn’t our mothers’ generation already do this? But maybe we’re getting somewhere this time. Maybe progress is occurring. This thread feels like progress.
she mentions self-care as a form of unrecognised, unrewarded, overlooked, and often unappreciated emotional labour …
What compensation against burnout looks like is this...
Speaking of Girl Scout camp, that’s one thing you learn as a counselor in training: the concept of me time. You’re required to have me time scheduled into your day, especially when you get up super early to lead and care for a pack of girls. Yeah, there are things that are fucked up about the Girl Scouts’ council hierarchy, and being a Girl Scout camp counselor, like being any kind of camp counselor, is an utterly exhausting mindfuck of a way to spend the summer. But there’s a lot there that’s really great, too, and it’s one of the best communities of people I’ve ever been part of, perhaps because there’s a conscious recognition and cultivation of the community-building aspects of the endeavor.
I have to assume it's subconscious (or maybe not even all that sub) attitudes about taking any criticism or direction from women. I've probably spent about half my professional life answering to a female boss. Which is probably not something I would have given one thought to if I hadn't fielded questions about whether that was a problem for me. Multiple times. In forms like "and you don't have a problem with that?"
There's just no way to interpret that question from another man in any way other than an accompanying message of "because you should.”
Earlier in the thread, I referred to a woman boss who browbeat and emotionally abused me and my women coworkers. I think part of why my male boss at the time refused to do much about this is that to some degree, he viewed the fact that the rest of the women in his department didn’t get along with their woman boss as some sort of catfight, not a serious problem worth addressing in any real fashion.
Speaking of which, that last sentence reminded me of a nitpick my male boss used to have with me regarding the style guide at that publication: Why was it OK to use “woman” as an adjective (e.g., “woman journalist”), since you wouldn’t say “man journalist” (awkward phrasing) and would instead likely say “male journalist”? I think he suspected this was some kind of namby-pamby feminist or activist thing. And perhaps it was both, but to me, it had to do with this whole thing.
But then this one dude came along and upended my entire understanding -- not just of sex and sexuality, but of my body and the life I was going to spend living in it
People love to mock Erica Jong as porn lit or something, but I’m glad that in amid all the issues of Cosmopolitan and Seventeen I read in high school, I also read her books, because in a very ’70s way she put forth the notion that women should expect to experience pleasure from their partners’ efforts, that the best male partners are those who are giving, and that a lot of the emotional labor women are expected to perform for their male partners is literally crazy, such as in cases when, for instance, their partners are crazy and believe that the woman should literally jump out the window with them. (Fear of Flying is truly good and cathartic reading in this regard.)
I'm interested in the Guess/Ask framework
Me too. One of the most interesting things in this discussion has been the question of how the ask vs. guess culture thing plays into this. I’ve seen both communication styles held up as the reason for all the problems from men or women, and I think if you read enough of the thread, you get to a point where you realize that ask vs. guess, while it does play into the issues we’re all talking about, is a separate and ancillary thing that can amplify the issues we’re all talking about in terms of emotional and domestic labor. It’s extremely complex and interesting how this all plays out, though.
For the record, my automatic response to even mild criticism is "oh shit, I messed up, how can I fix this?" and apologizing before I even have a sense of what might really be wrong, or if it's even actually my fault. I've worked in therapy on the speedy-sorry because it's annoying, and I end up apologizing for ridiculous things that are honestly nothing to do with me.
This dovetails with something that has come up at work, which as I mentioned above is in a role that involves emotional labor: When it’s appropriate to apologize, and when you’re apologizing too much or not enough. Some guys say “Never apologize” or “Don’t apologize or you’ll give so-and-so power,” and there is of course a legal component that is sometimes associated with apologies, in that apologizing in a contract situation can sometimes incorrectly imply culpability for an error or omission or other problem. And I have worked with women who apologize all the time, and I’ve seen how stumbling over themselves gets in the way of their success and happiness (especially when men disproportionately judge them for it). Yet multiple times a week I find myself in situations with clients or coworkers when a well-placed, brief apology is exactly what smooths things over and allows the work to continue. It seems like with apology, too, there has to be some kind of middle ground where apology signifies compromise and a willingness to meet someone in the middle emotionally and/or in terms of the work that’s being done, and it has to be a burden shouldered by more than one party. But I’m still working out the logistics of apology, and it seems like another complex kind of thing related to this that requires more thought.
"There is a reason mothers implore their children to settle down and start a family. You must make friends or have children or find a life partner. You must ensure those people stick around long enough to care for you when you get sick or grow old."
....Yeah, that's why people are unnerved at singles. Your fate is going to be awful when you get old.
Yeah… Women live longer than men. We’re all going to outlive them anyway, and in the meantime, most of us are likely going to end up caring for them a whole lot more than they do for us. So there’s that. I think about cohousing and The Women’s Room all the time in that context.
i realize now that what i mean is that i'm giving myself (and getting from my partner) permission to just follow for a minute instead of constantly scoping out the terrain, anxiously looking for every path and stumble.
I’m not submissive, but this comment reminded me of how I think my partner is a little freaked out whenever I just let my continually overthinking brain shut off for a while. So if I’m not totally on top of my game in, heh, setting up and understanding the rules of a new game, or if I let myself zone out when making out or whatever, or if I relax with too many drinks, I think this can seem threatening to him because I’m vulnerable. This thread is full of strong women being strong, but how to have space for vulnerability and letting one’s hair down and being supported in relaxing is a really important component of all of this.
The biggest source of staff friction is the division between those of us who guide our classes using emotional labor, and those who define success by writing 5-page papers.
And yes, it is absolutely a clear gender split. Our male teachers complain that too many kids get stomachaches and miss too many classes. They see NO connection between their single-minded focus of Plow Through Those Worksheets and complete inability to react to/shift gears for students' emotional states with anxiety-based tummyaches.
This reminds me of the difference between project managers, men or women, who treat the endeavor of managing people and projects as a set of inputs, boxes to be checked off, and buttons to be pushed, and those who understand (usually because they’ve created something themselves or been subject to poor management by others and learned from it) what it is to be an advocate and a shield and a guide to those they manage. I've found it difficult to work with those people, men or women, again, who are unwilling to put this level of emotional effort into what they do. But I also see how, if you’ve done the work of project management for long enough, you would perhaps start to want to shut yourself off and only give so much of yourself, especially if you’re working for organizations where that sort of engagement or investment goes uncompensated. It’s an interesting set of problems.
A huge component of secondary trauma (which, left untreated, is a huge predictor of burnout) among mental-health clinicians and direct-client-contact social services people, the huge majority of whom are women, is how devalued the caring fields are, even when they're compensated.
There was a thread about this, too, regarding the work of community moderation. I have to say, again, thank you to the mods here for the work you do and have done to keep this thread such a great place to talk about these issues, as well as the recognition you’ve given this by sidebarring it on the blue.
posted by limeonaire at 3:25 PM on July 25, 2015 [16 favorites]
This reminds me of the unsung women activists in the Ferguson and black lives matter movement. So much of this would not have been possible without women out on the streets, from day one and for the entire last year, marching and organizing and making sure people were fed and doing the work of community organization, so that they could maybe one day stop seeing their sons and brothers and fathers disproportionately killed by police officers. This is important to recognize and remember.
men who won't read the thread when their partners specifically ask them to are showing you where their stand. they're saying that skimming a thread is too much effort
Eh, leaving aside the fact that I mentioned things in this thread that perhaps are less than complimentary to my husband, at this point, this thread is so massive, it’s hard to recommend that friends read it, much less my husband. I get what you’re saying, nadawi, but I don’t know that a man’s refusal to read this thread after it’s thrown down like a gauntlet is necessarily a meaningful measure of anything. I will say this, though: Maybe it’s that my husband is already getting a bit less sick anyway, so he’s more able to do things for himself and us now, but since I mentioned the very specter of emotional labor, my husband seems to have started to try to do more for himself and be more considerate in his requests and actions. I’m wondering if he perhaps looked up babelfish’s original post on The Toast after I mentioned it. Even just reading that might be enough for some guys to get it.
Anyway, this whole thread has me thinking a lot about The Women’s Room, which has been referenced multiple times and which I first picked up and started reading at Girl Scout camp. Girl Scout camp, I’ve thought for a few days now, is perhaps the closest thing to Crone Island that I've experienced. Like others have noted, this thread has me also drawing comparisons to consciousness-raising sessions, which actually friends and I started having in some respect almost a year ago now after Mike Brown was shot in Ferguson, close to where we grew up. It’s both encouraging and sad to me that this is occurring now—encouraging because I feel like I’m becoming conscious of the racism and sexism I was somewhat blind to in the world before, and sad because didn’t our mothers’ generation already do this? But maybe we’re getting somewhere this time. Maybe progress is occurring. This thread feels like progress.
she mentions self-care as a form of unrecognised, unrewarded, overlooked, and often unappreciated emotional labour …
What compensation against burnout looks like is this...
Speaking of Girl Scout camp, that’s one thing you learn as a counselor in training: the concept of me time. You’re required to have me time scheduled into your day, especially when you get up super early to lead and care for a pack of girls. Yeah, there are things that are fucked up about the Girl Scouts’ council hierarchy, and being a Girl Scout camp counselor, like being any kind of camp counselor, is an utterly exhausting mindfuck of a way to spend the summer. But there’s a lot there that’s really great, too, and it’s one of the best communities of people I’ve ever been part of, perhaps because there’s a conscious recognition and cultivation of the community-building aspects of the endeavor.
I have to assume it's subconscious (or maybe not even all that sub) attitudes about taking any criticism or direction from women. I've probably spent about half my professional life answering to a female boss. Which is probably not something I would have given one thought to if I hadn't fielded questions about whether that was a problem for me. Multiple times. In forms like "and you don't have a problem with that?"
There's just no way to interpret that question from another man in any way other than an accompanying message of "because you should.”
Earlier in the thread, I referred to a woman boss who browbeat and emotionally abused me and my women coworkers. I think part of why my male boss at the time refused to do much about this is that to some degree, he viewed the fact that the rest of the women in his department didn’t get along with their woman boss as some sort of catfight, not a serious problem worth addressing in any real fashion.
Speaking of which, that last sentence reminded me of a nitpick my male boss used to have with me regarding the style guide at that publication: Why was it OK to use “woman” as an adjective (e.g., “woman journalist”), since you wouldn’t say “man journalist” (awkward phrasing) and would instead likely say “male journalist”? I think he suspected this was some kind of namby-pamby feminist or activist thing. And perhaps it was both, but to me, it had to do with this whole thing.
But then this one dude came along and upended my entire understanding -- not just of sex and sexuality, but of my body and the life I was going to spend living in it
People love to mock Erica Jong as porn lit or something, but I’m glad that in amid all the issues of Cosmopolitan and Seventeen I read in high school, I also read her books, because in a very ’70s way she put forth the notion that women should expect to experience pleasure from their partners’ efforts, that the best male partners are those who are giving, and that a lot of the emotional labor women are expected to perform for their male partners is literally crazy, such as in cases when, for instance, their partners are crazy and believe that the woman should literally jump out the window with them. (Fear of Flying is truly good and cathartic reading in this regard.)
I'm interested in the Guess/Ask framework
Me too. One of the most interesting things in this discussion has been the question of how the ask vs. guess culture thing plays into this. I’ve seen both communication styles held up as the reason for all the problems from men or women, and I think if you read enough of the thread, you get to a point where you realize that ask vs. guess, while it does play into the issues we’re all talking about, is a separate and ancillary thing that can amplify the issues we’re all talking about in terms of emotional and domestic labor. It’s extremely complex and interesting how this all plays out, though.
For the record, my automatic response to even mild criticism is "oh shit, I messed up, how can I fix this?" and apologizing before I even have a sense of what might really be wrong, or if it's even actually my fault. I've worked in therapy on the speedy-sorry because it's annoying, and I end up apologizing for ridiculous things that are honestly nothing to do with me.
This dovetails with something that has come up at work, which as I mentioned above is in a role that involves emotional labor: When it’s appropriate to apologize, and when you’re apologizing too much or not enough. Some guys say “Never apologize” or “Don’t apologize or you’ll give so-and-so power,” and there is of course a legal component that is sometimes associated with apologies, in that apologizing in a contract situation can sometimes incorrectly imply culpability for an error or omission or other problem. And I have worked with women who apologize all the time, and I’ve seen how stumbling over themselves gets in the way of their success and happiness (especially when men disproportionately judge them for it). Yet multiple times a week I find myself in situations with clients or coworkers when a well-placed, brief apology is exactly what smooths things over and allows the work to continue. It seems like with apology, too, there has to be some kind of middle ground where apology signifies compromise and a willingness to meet someone in the middle emotionally and/or in terms of the work that’s being done, and it has to be a burden shouldered by more than one party. But I’m still working out the logistics of apology, and it seems like another complex kind of thing related to this that requires more thought.
"There is a reason mothers implore their children to settle down and start a family. You must make friends or have children or find a life partner. You must ensure those people stick around long enough to care for you when you get sick or grow old."
....Yeah, that's why people are unnerved at singles. Your fate is going to be awful when you get old.
Yeah… Women live longer than men. We’re all going to outlive them anyway, and in the meantime, most of us are likely going to end up caring for them a whole lot more than they do for us. So there’s that. I think about cohousing and The Women’s Room all the time in that context.
i realize now that what i mean is that i'm giving myself (and getting from my partner) permission to just follow for a minute instead of constantly scoping out the terrain, anxiously looking for every path and stumble.
I’m not submissive, but this comment reminded me of how I think my partner is a little freaked out whenever I just let my continually overthinking brain shut off for a while. So if I’m not totally on top of my game in, heh, setting up and understanding the rules of a new game, or if I let myself zone out when making out or whatever, or if I relax with too many drinks, I think this can seem threatening to him because I’m vulnerable. This thread is full of strong women being strong, but how to have space for vulnerability and letting one’s hair down and being supported in relaxing is a really important component of all of this.
The biggest source of staff friction is the division between those of us who guide our classes using emotional labor, and those who define success by writing 5-page papers.
And yes, it is absolutely a clear gender split. Our male teachers complain that too many kids get stomachaches and miss too many classes. They see NO connection between their single-minded focus of Plow Through Those Worksheets and complete inability to react to/shift gears for students' emotional states with anxiety-based tummyaches.
This reminds me of the difference between project managers, men or women, who treat the endeavor of managing people and projects as a set of inputs, boxes to be checked off, and buttons to be pushed, and those who understand (usually because they’ve created something themselves or been subject to poor management by others and learned from it) what it is to be an advocate and a shield and a guide to those they manage. I've found it difficult to work with those people, men or women, again, who are unwilling to put this level of emotional effort into what they do. But I also see how, if you’ve done the work of project management for long enough, you would perhaps start to want to shut yourself off and only give so much of yourself, especially if you’re working for organizations where that sort of engagement or investment goes uncompensated. It’s an interesting set of problems.
A huge component of secondary trauma (which, left untreated, is a huge predictor of burnout) among mental-health clinicians and direct-client-contact social services people, the huge majority of whom are women, is how devalued the caring fields are, even when they're compensated.
There was a thread about this, too, regarding the work of community moderation. I have to say, again, thank you to the mods here for the work you do and have done to keep this thread such a great place to talk about these issues, as well as the recognition you’ve given this by sidebarring it on the blue.
posted by limeonaire at 3:25 PM on July 25, 2015 [16 favorites]
I have so many responses and feelIngs that I've been sorting out and I'm not ready to put into words yet, but first:
(Mods, I'm fine if a trans woman needs to not speak here, please delete this if that's so.)
Please do not delete such comments.
posted by bq at 3:34 PM on July 25, 2015 [38 favorites]
(Mods, I'm fine if a trans woman needs to not speak here, please delete this if that's so.)
Please do not delete such comments.
posted by bq at 3:34 PM on July 25, 2015 [38 favorites]
Or for any other reason. Gah. I don't like the taste of foot.
posted by Ambient Echo at 3:57 PM on July 25, 2015
posted by Ambient Echo at 3:57 PM on July 25, 2015
Ambient Echo, I don't even know what other post you're talking about, but I really appreciate the one you just made upthread. You're in an unusually valuable position to comment on this issue, having experienced it from both sides. I'd like to hear anything else you're comfortable sharing.
Interesting that you felt you were allowed to be angry. It seems like anger isn't really viewed as an "emotion" in men. Or if it is, it's almost a positive--a manly, action-y thing, and something that's justified by external circumstances, not something that happens because of a man's character. Whereas, in my experience, when women are angry it's because they're overly emotional, crazy, etc.--some character flaw, not because they're having a justifiable reaction to events.
posted by HotToddy at 4:14 PM on July 25, 2015 [16 favorites]
Interesting that you felt you were allowed to be angry. It seems like anger isn't really viewed as an "emotion" in men. Or if it is, it's almost a positive--a manly, action-y thing, and something that's justified by external circumstances, not something that happens because of a man's character. Whereas, in my experience, when women are angry it's because they're overly emotional, crazy, etc.--some character flaw, not because they're having a justifiable reaction to events.
posted by HotToddy at 4:14 PM on July 25, 2015 [16 favorites]
Whereas, in my experience, when women are angry it's because they're overly emotional, crazy, etc.--some character flaw, not because they're having a justifiable reaction to events.
I was so socialized against expressions of anger, as a woman, that it took me years to be able to express anger at all that wasn't directed inward. I could get mad at myself, but not mad at others. This is obviously an extreme end of the spectrum, but I've spoken with other women who've had similar experiences, having to learn how to be angry at all, whereas all the men I've known have had so many other emotions socially stigmatized for them, but anger remained a viable mode of expression. It's fucked up.
posted by lriG rorriM at 4:19 PM on July 25, 2015 [25 favorites]
I was so socialized against expressions of anger, as a woman, that it took me years to be able to express anger at all that wasn't directed inward. I could get mad at myself, but not mad at others. This is obviously an extreme end of the spectrum, but I've spoken with other women who've had similar experiences, having to learn how to be angry at all, whereas all the men I've known have had so many other emotions socially stigmatized for them, but anger remained a viable mode of expression. It's fucked up.
posted by lriG rorriM at 4:19 PM on July 25, 2015 [25 favorites]
Here's an inchoate thought after readings this wonderful thread from top to bottom... What's the relationship of the emotional labor dynamic to passive aggressive behavior? I reckon the pattern, once established, compounds the tendancy to resort to passive aggressive statements and gestures on both sides of the exchange. Or is that just the perception/interpretation because passive aggressive behavior is better understood?
For example, consider the act of leaving socks on the floor, which might be emotional cluelessness, learned helplessness, passive aggressiveness or all three forming a big clusterfuck of contempt. In which case, why care unless it's to help design the difficult conversation ahead I guess. But there I go, leaving the socks untouched in a futile protest which, given the emotional labor dynamics I helped create now reads as passive aggressive to my spouse. It's thorny.
posted by carmicha at 5:24 PM on July 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
For example, consider the act of leaving socks on the floor, which might be emotional cluelessness, learned helplessness, passive aggressiveness or all three forming a big clusterfuck of contempt. In which case, why care unless it's to help design the difficult conversation ahead I guess. But there I go, leaving the socks untouched in a futile protest which, given the emotional labor dynamics I helped create now reads as passive aggressive to my spouse. It's thorny.
posted by carmicha at 5:24 PM on July 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
I apologize for coming in so late on this thread, and I'm sure that many of the kinds of things I'm going to say may have already been said.
One of the differences between my hubs and I is that he's way more cynical about the world than I am, and the things he reads about online for work and whatnot are all things like what new supposedly secure Internet system was hacked into today and which formerly supposedly awesome piece of software is now a pile of shite because a zero-day exploit was found.
On top of that, he does a lot of pro bono work as an attorney and reads about things that could affect his clients in very negative ways. And then he's also a staunch advocate for the EFF, so ever since the Snowden Revelation™ he's been reading up on which countries are not violating your privacy rights and figuring out which ones we should move to if the U.S. ever goes too far.
Which means that after a particularly long work day, he sometimes needs to vent and be angry about these things. And while I like being informed about what goes on in the world, I sometimes don't have the energy to have my good mood and attitude about it derailed by his need to unload.
So, we actually initiated a ratings system, where if he really needs to tell me about something, I'll ask him how high on the scale of WTF it is. There are some days where he can tell me about 6s or 7s and I'm totally okay with it, and other days where I'll only hear it if he really needs to vent and it's actually causing him some mental anguish if he doesn't get to vent.
The best part of this all is that I don't even need to use this system in reverse because he actually enjoys venting about the things I vent about.
As for the rest, he bugs me more about tidying things up than I do to him, but with regards to the whole "keeping emotional ties through cards" thing, he doesn't understand it. (This is mostly because he hates clutter of any kind, and to him cards are clutter. He also doesn't assign emotional value to objects the way I do.) And yet, he and his mom talk on the phone or text each other almost every day and I'm the one who was terrible at remembering birthdays for my parents, sibling, and nieces because for a while I felt guilty that I couldn't afford to buy them anything nice.
I guess what I'm trying to say by my examples is that when it comes to relationships (romantic or otherwise), communication is totally the key, and there's no way in the world that I would have been able to even conceive of this kind of compromise for us without it.
posted by TrishaLynn at 5:46 PM on July 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
One of the differences between my hubs and I is that he's way more cynical about the world than I am, and the things he reads about online for work and whatnot are all things like what new supposedly secure Internet system was hacked into today and which formerly supposedly awesome piece of software is now a pile of shite because a zero-day exploit was found.
On top of that, he does a lot of pro bono work as an attorney and reads about things that could affect his clients in very negative ways. And then he's also a staunch advocate for the EFF, so ever since the Snowden Revelation™ he's been reading up on which countries are not violating your privacy rights and figuring out which ones we should move to if the U.S. ever goes too far.
Which means that after a particularly long work day, he sometimes needs to vent and be angry about these things. And while I like being informed about what goes on in the world, I sometimes don't have the energy to have my good mood and attitude about it derailed by his need to unload.
So, we actually initiated a ratings system, where if he really needs to tell me about something, I'll ask him how high on the scale of WTF it is. There are some days where he can tell me about 6s or 7s and I'm totally okay with it, and other days where I'll only hear it if he really needs to vent and it's actually causing him some mental anguish if he doesn't get to vent.
The best part of this all is that I don't even need to use this system in reverse because he actually enjoys venting about the things I vent about.
As for the rest, he bugs me more about tidying things up than I do to him, but with regards to the whole "keeping emotional ties through cards" thing, he doesn't understand it. (This is mostly because he hates clutter of any kind, and to him cards are clutter. He also doesn't assign emotional value to objects the way I do.) And yet, he and his mom talk on the phone or text each other almost every day and I'm the one who was terrible at remembering birthdays for my parents, sibling, and nieces because for a while I felt guilty that I couldn't afford to buy them anything nice.
I guess what I'm trying to say by my examples is that when it comes to relationships (romantic or otherwise), communication is totally the key, and there's no way in the world that I would have been able to even conceive of this kind of compromise for us without it.
posted by TrishaLynn at 5:46 PM on July 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
Interesting that you felt you were allowed to be angry. It seems like anger isn't really viewed as an "emotion" in men.
I have read (in When Anger Scares You, which I recommend so often that I finally just bookmarked the Amazon link) that, societally, men are allowed to feel anger and lust, but not really any of the other emotions. Women, societally, are allowed to feel all the emotions except for anger and lust. Individuals may ignore or bend these societal dictates depending on their own circumstances -- a boy growing up with a physically abusive father may decide that anger is dangerous and not allow it for himself; a girl growing up in an emotionally repressive family might rebel by displaying a great deal of anger -- but in general, men are rewarded, or at least accepted, for expressing rage and lust and stigmatized for expressing anything else, and women are stigmatized for expressing rage and lust and rewarded, or at least accepted, for expressing anything else.
I find that in my therapy for trauma survivors, my main job is to move women away from guilt and help them find, express, and accept their anger, and to help men move away from anger and find, express, and accept their helplessness. It's one of the reasons why I get annoyed at therapists who claim that anger is always a secondary emotion (that is, a feeling about a feeling). It often is for men, because anger is allowed and powerful for them, so it's an easy-out from feeling vulnerable. It's often a suppressed primary emotion for women, however, because it's not allowed and because it is powerful.
posted by jaguar at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2015 [68 favorites]
I have read (in When Anger Scares You, which I recommend so often that I finally just bookmarked the Amazon link) that, societally, men are allowed to feel anger and lust, but not really any of the other emotions. Women, societally, are allowed to feel all the emotions except for anger and lust. Individuals may ignore or bend these societal dictates depending on their own circumstances -- a boy growing up with a physically abusive father may decide that anger is dangerous and not allow it for himself; a girl growing up in an emotionally repressive family might rebel by displaying a great deal of anger -- but in general, men are rewarded, or at least accepted, for expressing rage and lust and stigmatized for expressing anything else, and women are stigmatized for expressing rage and lust and rewarded, or at least accepted, for expressing anything else.
I find that in my therapy for trauma survivors, my main job is to move women away from guilt and help them find, express, and accept their anger, and to help men move away from anger and find, express, and accept their helplessness. It's one of the reasons why I get annoyed at therapists who claim that anger is always a secondary emotion (that is, a feeling about a feeling). It often is for men, because anger is allowed and powerful for them, so it's an easy-out from feeling vulnerable. It's often a suppressed primary emotion for women, however, because it's not allowed and because it is powerful.
posted by jaguar at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2015 [68 favorites]
I'm getting increasingly skeptical about 'women are allowed to be emotional' because SO much of this thread is about women being punished for being sad, for being upset, for being hurt. I had a friend drop off the radar recently, and when he returned he expected things to be just like normal. When I said I was hurt, I was upset, I found it awkward to talk to him after the abrupt drop and equally abrupt return, all he wanted me to do was pretend I wasn't. Any actual expression of emotion apart from joy is verboten, is a display of inherent weakness, and seomthing that must be stopped in order for men to function.
And Christ Almighty, the next time someone tells my hurt and injured daughter to stop crying I'm going to lose my shit. There is a qualitative difference between that and 'here are some tools so you can feel a bit more in control/can breathe/can avoid puking from crying'.
I think it's a little pat to delineate acceptable emotional displays along gender lines, and the paradigm of femininity doesn't welcome emotional displays any more than masculinity. It has a lot of double binds (girly media to make you cry and eat ice-cream is stupid and not doing that is much better :: if you didn't cry at that you're broken) but I don't know that it's straightforward anger + lust is for men, everything else for women. I mean, beyond anything else, towering displays of rage are much more socially acceptable than women who won't stop crying.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:24 PM on July 25, 2015 [39 favorites]
And Christ Almighty, the next time someone tells my hurt and injured daughter to stop crying I'm going to lose my shit. There is a qualitative difference between that and 'here are some tools so you can feel a bit more in control/can breathe/can avoid puking from crying'.
I think it's a little pat to delineate acceptable emotional displays along gender lines, and the paradigm of femininity doesn't welcome emotional displays any more than masculinity. It has a lot of double binds (girly media to make you cry and eat ice-cream is stupid and not doing that is much better :: if you didn't cry at that you're broken) but I don't know that it's straightforward anger + lust is for men, everything else for women. I mean, beyond anything else, towering displays of rage are much more socially acceptable than women who won't stop crying.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:24 PM on July 25, 2015 [39 favorites]
'm getting increasingly skeptical about 'women are allowed to be emotional' because SO much of this thread is about women being punished for being sad, for being upset, for being hurt.
Women are allowed to be emotional in those ways and still be considered womanly. They will just still then be perceived negatively for being women.
Men get to be angry and lustful. If they exibit other emotions - particularly any that indicate sensitivity - then they are not good at being men. Which means they must be women in the binary and that's bad because weak inferior etc.
There's exemptions for women exhibiting those sensitive traits in service of men, of course, so long as they don't think they get to make the decisions about when to turn them on and off without male input.
posted by phearlez at 7:38 PM on July 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
Women are allowed to be emotional in those ways and still be considered womanly. They will just still then be perceived negatively for being women.
Men get to be angry and lustful. If they exibit other emotions - particularly any that indicate sensitivity - then they are not good at being men. Which means they must be women in the binary and that's bad because weak inferior etc.
There's exemptions for women exhibiting those sensitive traits in service of men, of course, so long as they don't think they get to make the decisions about when to turn them on and off without male input.
posted by phearlez at 7:38 PM on July 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think there are definite situational controls. Women are supposed to be upset in X situations but are annoying when they're upset in Y situations. I totally agree that women's emotions are constrained situationally, but I do think that women are allowed a fuller range of emotion than men. And the big casualty I see in that is that women are very much punished for displaying anger.
posted by jaguar at 7:41 PM on July 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 7:41 PM on July 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I don't know about all women, but MY emotions definitely seem to be a giant pain in the ass to my husband. And, amazingly, I'm only seeing that pattern now. This thread. Wow.
posted by HotToddy at 8:04 PM on July 25, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 8:04 PM on July 25, 2015 [25 favorites]
Yes! They did this on GoT, S1. "[He] was crazed, beat his hands bloody on the wall, all the things men do to show you how much they care."
Men (and not to make this about the mens) have a limited range of emotion we are allowed to show. Women have a limited range of contexts in which they are allowed to show limited ranges of emotion. Whereas men are allowed to show anger or lust pretty much anytime.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:20 PM on July 25, 2015 [14 favorites]
Men (and not to make this about the mens) have a limited range of emotion we are allowed to show. Women have a limited range of contexts in which they are allowed to show limited ranges of emotion. Whereas men are allowed to show anger or lust pretty much anytime.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:20 PM on July 25, 2015 [14 favorites]
Witness the reaction to Magic Mike XXL. How surprising that women show lust! (In very seriously circumscribed contexts and only in specific ways).
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:23 PM on July 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:23 PM on July 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Filed under Let No Subsite Be Left Behind: this interesting survey in Projects asking about greeting card etiquette around the world. Definitely seems relevant (especially the part about who sends them!) given the start of this thread.
Also: this thread as a 1300+ comment whole is genuinely awe-inspiring. I have SO many thoughts and reactions and most of them boil down to "My sisters of choice! Let us go forth and be awesome together on our island of Crones."
posted by librarylis at 8:46 PM on July 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
Also: this thread as a 1300+ comment whole is genuinely awe-inspiring. I have SO many thoughts and reactions and most of them boil down to "My sisters of choice! Let us go forth and be awesome together on our island of Crones."
posted by librarylis at 8:46 PM on July 25, 2015 [9 favorites]
Like everyone, I've learned a lot about myself and my various relationships in this thread.
One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately, even before the thread, is the fact that, when times are really, really tough, I don't get any emotional support from those that I would desperately like to have support from. I have learned over the years, through trial and painful error, that none of those people will give me the support I need. So whenever there is a crisis I just take care of it. I just take care of it. I don't ask for help anymore.
Most of the time the feedback I get from people is "You're so strong". NO. It's not that I'm "strong". It's that I have no fucking choice. No choice. No one else is going to help me. I WISH I didn't have to be so strong all the time.
I used to take a lot of pride in the idea that I was good in a crisis. Later I realized what was actually happening. I wish there was a safe place where I could just fall apart, as is appropriate during a crisis, and have someone just pick up the pieces for me. That place doesn't exist in my world. People take the idea of my strength for granted.
posted by vignettist at 8:50 PM on July 25, 2015 [101 favorites]
One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately, even before the thread, is the fact that, when times are really, really tough, I don't get any emotional support from those that I would desperately like to have support from. I have learned over the years, through trial and painful error, that none of those people will give me the support I need. So whenever there is a crisis I just take care of it. I just take care of it. I don't ask for help anymore.
Most of the time the feedback I get from people is "You're so strong". NO. It's not that I'm "strong". It's that I have no fucking choice. No choice. No one else is going to help me. I WISH I didn't have to be so strong all the time.
I used to take a lot of pride in the idea that I was good in a crisis. Later I realized what was actually happening. I wish there was a safe place where I could just fall apart, as is appropriate during a crisis, and have someone just pick up the pieces for me. That place doesn't exist in my world. People take the idea of my strength for granted.
posted by vignettist at 8:50 PM on July 25, 2015 [101 favorites]
Late to the party, but I've spent the last several days going away and coming back to this thread to read the new comments. I've already sent links to close friends and the girlfriend of my father, who is a saint and so patient with both him and her three sons from previous relationships. Watching my own mother struggle with being the ferocious second-wave feminist she is while also balancing all the emotional labor of raising a family did a lot to inform me about what a healthy partnership should look like, but the dysfunction and the codependency of her 11-year marriage to my father was too much for even her. (To say I didn't have great relationship modelling growing up would be an understatement.)
I asked my boyfriend of 2.5 years to read this thread in its entirety and let me know when he was done. His initial comment after reading for 15 minutes was "it sounds like everyone is just complaining" -- after he finished reading, however, it had turned into "let's talk about this, how do you think I'm doing with the emotional labor in our relationship? how did this change what you think about us?" So I'm in debt to all of the women who are older and much wiser in the world, telling their stories here and who were able to gift me with something to take into my relationship so we could hold ourselves accountable for the success and room for improvement between my partner and I.
Being with my current partner has always felt like a lungful of fresh air, like a weightlessness you could only accomplish in space, and I never quite knew why that was until this thread gave me the language to understand and express it. It is profound to me how well everything here spelled out what was going on not just in my neverending nightmare of a previous relationship, but the toxicity of my ex's parents, how they taught him to view women, and also how my own parents were shaped and harmed by what their parents taught them about gendered expectations of who carries the emotional labor in the family, and how they impressed that onto me unwittingly.
I would also like to express my deep, deep appreciation for having a bevy of well-traveled women as part of this community, who are willing to openly discuss the complexities of their own paths in life: families, relationships, work, their relationship with themselves. I am a modest 28 years old, I've fought and hustled for what little I've got so far, my extended family is almost non-existent and so I look up to so many of you as the honorary aunts and grandmothers I have never had. Metafilter's women are a rock for me rely on, even if I don't reach out and participate as often as many of you do. Your strength is inspiring.
Eyebrows McGee and Mrs. Pterodactyl in particular -- you two are the names I am always catching in any thread concerning others' well-being -- but so many others as well, and everyone in this thread. If I could, I would send you all thank you cards and some of those little airline liquor bottles.
posted by Snacks at 11:43 PM on July 25, 2015 [62 favorites]
I asked my boyfriend of 2.5 years to read this thread in its entirety and let me know when he was done. His initial comment after reading for 15 minutes was "it sounds like everyone is just complaining" -- after he finished reading, however, it had turned into "let's talk about this, how do you think I'm doing with the emotional labor in our relationship? how did this change what you think about us?" So I'm in debt to all of the women who are older and much wiser in the world, telling their stories here and who were able to gift me with something to take into my relationship so we could hold ourselves accountable for the success and room for improvement between my partner and I.
Being with my current partner has always felt like a lungful of fresh air, like a weightlessness you could only accomplish in space, and I never quite knew why that was until this thread gave me the language to understand and express it. It is profound to me how well everything here spelled out what was going on not just in my neverending nightmare of a previous relationship, but the toxicity of my ex's parents, how they taught him to view women, and also how my own parents were shaped and harmed by what their parents taught them about gendered expectations of who carries the emotional labor in the family, and how they impressed that onto me unwittingly.
I would also like to express my deep, deep appreciation for having a bevy of well-traveled women as part of this community, who are willing to openly discuss the complexities of their own paths in life: families, relationships, work, their relationship with themselves. I am a modest 28 years old, I've fought and hustled for what little I've got so far, my extended family is almost non-existent and so I look up to so many of you as the honorary aunts and grandmothers I have never had. Metafilter's women are a rock for me rely on, even if I don't reach out and participate as often as many of you do. Your strength is inspiring.
Eyebrows McGee and Mrs. Pterodactyl in particular -- you two are the names I am always catching in any thread concerning others' well-being -- but so many others as well, and everyone in this thread. If I could, I would send you all thank you cards and some of those little airline liquor bottles.
posted by Snacks at 11:43 PM on July 25, 2015 [62 favorites]
*pours airplane Snacks into coffee cup*
Menopause makes a huge difference to "just not giving a shit" of the type kanata describes. Not saying one needs to wait till then, just describing that many of the things we described as part of the post menopausal attitude, if seen in the light of this thread, are part of the liberation.
posted by infini at 2:06 AM on July 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
Menopause makes a huge difference to "just not giving a shit" of the type kanata describes. Not saying one needs to wait till then, just describing that many of the things we described as part of the post menopausal attitude, if seen in the light of this thread, are part of the liberation.
posted by infini at 2:06 AM on July 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
This thread is full of strong women being strong, but how to have space for vulnerability and letting one’s hair down and being supported in relaxing is a really important component of all of this. ~ limeonaire
This.
posted by infini at 3:28 AM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
This.
posted by infini at 3:28 AM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Tangent:
As a mom who teaches (I'm on my 5-week summer break which THANK BABY JESUS) I've been thinking a lot about what messages we give kids.
THE LAST PIECE OF CAKE TEST**
So I asked my kids. I gave them the example of, "My birthday was yesterday (I have Celiac so finding a delicious cake is already the best ever...I'm just saying...the cake is IMPORTANT), and
there's ONE piece of cake left. You've been out with friends, get home late, and you're ravenous and exhausted and DAMN one cake slice is there! What do you do?"
Thing 1: make a grilled cheese sandwich. I might stick my finger in the frosting but I'm not gonna eat your cake!
Thing 2: drink a lot of water and make toast. That's YOUR cake! Why would I eat it?
Thing 3: probably 10 PB&Js. I would think about eating it. I might wake you up to ask if I could eat it. But NO WAY I would just eat it because you'd kill me.
Summary of testing: Things 1 and 2 are women (Thing 2 also knows how to avert hangovers whereas Thing 1 is going to be sorry). They have received the message that we think about the alpha and the needs of the pack before enjoying ourselves.
Thing 3 is a teenage male. He will consider the needs of the alpha and the pack, but he's not averse to pissing off the alpha. He is also scared of the alpha.
I'm trying to figure out what the Piece of Cake Test means.
**Test originated from ex BF who DID eat the piece of cake.
posted by kinetic at 4:16 AM on July 26, 2015 [44 favorites]
As a mom who teaches (I'm on my 5-week summer break which THANK BABY JESUS) I've been thinking a lot about what messages we give kids.
THE LAST PIECE OF CAKE TEST**
So I asked my kids. I gave them the example of, "My birthday was yesterday (I have Celiac so finding a delicious cake is already the best ever...I'm just saying...the cake is IMPORTANT), and
there's ONE piece of cake left. You've been out with friends, get home late, and you're ravenous and exhausted and DAMN one cake slice is there! What do you do?"
Thing 1: make a grilled cheese sandwich. I might stick my finger in the frosting but I'm not gonna eat your cake!
Thing 2: drink a lot of water and make toast. That's YOUR cake! Why would I eat it?
Thing 3: probably 10 PB&Js. I would think about eating it. I might wake you up to ask if I could eat it. But NO WAY I would just eat it because you'd kill me.
Summary of testing: Things 1 and 2 are women (Thing 2 also knows how to avert hangovers whereas Thing 1 is going to be sorry). They have received the message that we think about the alpha and the needs of the pack before enjoying ourselves.
Thing 3 is a teenage male. He will consider the needs of the alpha and the pack, but he's not averse to pissing off the alpha. He is also scared of the alpha.
I'm trying to figure out what the Piece of Cake Test means.
**Test originated from ex BF who DID eat the piece of cake.
posted by kinetic at 4:16 AM on July 26, 2015 [44 favorites]
kinetic, thank you for your comment about the thought process behind going for groceries. It's this whole mental process of seeing how everything fits together, and how you can do it most efficiently, and understanding how each purchase reflects a larger system. You are not pruning the lilac.
It connects somehow with this comment:
"Me: You should just notice that you're tripping over your own shoes every time you come in, and put your shoes away!
Him: If I noticed that, I'd have to do something about it. I'd never get anything done that way!"
Every time I pass through an area, I pick something up or put something away or fix something while on my way to do something else. It slows me down a bit, but it also moves several discrete projects forward in an efficient way. You have no idea how much it pisses me off when my husband refers to this as "beagling." He makes no connection whatsoever between my efforts to keep up and his habit of leaving a goddamn trail of destruction behind him when he is focused on a single goal.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:54 AM on July 26, 2015 [31 favorites]
It connects somehow with this comment:
"Me: You should just notice that you're tripping over your own shoes every time you come in, and put your shoes away!
Him: If I noticed that, I'd have to do something about it. I'd never get anything done that way!"
Every time I pass through an area, I pick something up or put something away or fix something while on my way to do something else. It slows me down a bit, but it also moves several discrete projects forward in an efficient way. You have no idea how much it pisses me off when my husband refers to this as "beagling." He makes no connection whatsoever between my efforts to keep up and his habit of leaving a goddamn trail of destruction behind him when he is focused on a single goal.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:54 AM on July 26, 2015 [31 favorites]
That comment begs for some kind of retort:
"Me: You should just notice that you're tripping over your own shoes every time you come in, and put your shoes away!
Him: If I noticed that, I'd have to do something about it. I'd never get anything done that way!"
That begs for the response: "So, you'd rather I be the one to never get anything done?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:07 AM on July 26, 2015 [37 favorites]
"Me: You should just notice that you're tripping over your own shoes every time you come in, and put your shoes away!
Him: If I noticed that, I'd have to do something about it. I'd never get anything done that way!"
That begs for the response: "So, you'd rather I be the one to never get anything done?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:07 AM on July 26, 2015 [37 favorites]
kinetic: Your "Last of Piece of Cake" test would never work in Minnesota because of Minnesota Nice-ness rules which mean that everyone needs to feel guilty about getting the last piece of anything until it grows mold, and then you throw it out. :D
And that kind of goes back to something that was said upthread about passive-aggressiveness. My theory is that passive-aggressiveness may have been born from this concept of the emotional labor imbalance. The more emotionally labor-invested partner wants the other to be more concerned with X, but can't find a way to express it directly because their partner doesn't seem to be able to understand why it's important. So they resort to creeping around the issue. And that doesn't seem very healthy at all.
posted by TrishaLynn at 7:13 AM on July 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
And that kind of goes back to something that was said upthread about passive-aggressiveness. My theory is that passive-aggressiveness may have been born from this concept of the emotional labor imbalance. The more emotionally labor-invested partner wants the other to be more concerned with X, but can't find a way to express it directly because their partner doesn't seem to be able to understand why it's important. So they resort to creeping around the issue. And that doesn't seem very healthy at all.
posted by TrishaLynn at 7:13 AM on July 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
I was going to post this in the Meta, but it really belongs here because of how many times I've rewritten e-mails to a (former) boss so that they were not just swears in all caps. This was on the New Yorker, and my first thought was that the author had been made aware of La Discussion: Please Find Attached That Thing You Need.
What billing code do we use on our timesheets for logging hours spent doing the Patriarchal Cheese Tap Dance around fragile males egos?
posted by mimi at 7:38 AM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
What billing code do we use on our timesheets for logging hours spent doing the Patriarchal Cheese Tap Dance around fragile males egos?
posted by mimi at 7:38 AM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Ha! I sent an email attachment to managers last week accompanied by three sentences. I used "please" in every one of them. I also have been emailing people to ask if they wanted to stay in our mailing list. Almost unanimously the women replied "please keep me on the list" and the men replied "yes keep me on the list".
posted by billiebee at 7:47 AM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 7:47 AM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
What billing code do we use on our timesheets for logging hours spent doing the Patriarchal Cheese Tap Dance around fragile males egos?
61b7.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:59 AM on July 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
61b7.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:59 AM on July 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
Like everyone else here'd, I've been self-assessing this for the last week plus now. And while I think we're not too imbalanced...oh the things you start noticing and shaking your head.
Friday night, en route to meet the mister for dinner and a show, I grabbed my small crossbody purse that neatly fits a lipstick, my monies, and my sunglasses, and matched what I was wearing...and then I swapped it out for less appropriate message bag, because I knew that he'd have his glasses, their case, and his passport-sized wallet that doesn't fit in a back pocket, carried in his hands, waiting to be put away in my purse. And I was not wrong.
posted by mimi at 8:22 AM on July 26, 2015 [21 favorites]
Friday night, en route to meet the mister for dinner and a show, I grabbed my small crossbody purse that neatly fits a lipstick, my monies, and my sunglasses, and matched what I was wearing...and then I swapped it out for less appropriate message bag, because I knew that he'd have his glasses, their case, and his passport-sized wallet that doesn't fit in a back pocket, carried in his hands, waiting to be put away in my purse. And I was not wrong.
posted by mimi at 8:22 AM on July 26, 2015 [21 favorites]
I told myself I wouldn't chime in until I'd read every last word in this thread, but I've got about 200 comments still to go--plus those that roll in today--and I just can't bear to put off expressing my gratitude to all of you.
I don't do thank-you notes, but damn. This has been a gift like no other. THANK YOU.
(Saving my own anecdotes for now and getting back to reading.)
posted by whoiam at 8:32 AM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
I don't do thank-you notes, but damn. This has been a gift like no other. THANK YOU.
(Saving my own anecdotes for now and getting back to reading.)
posted by whoiam at 8:32 AM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
MonkeyToes: "He makes no connection whatsoever between my efforts to keep up and his habit of leaving a goddamn trail of destruction behind him when he is focused on a single goal."
My #1 top annoyance right now is that my husband is CONSTANTLY COMPLAINING about how the kids don't clean up after themselves -- which they do not, and it is irritating, but they are 6 and 4 -- while HE HIMSELF leaves a trail of destruction in his wake that he NEVER CLEANS UP. I probably spend 15 minutes every day just collecting his dirty dishes from ALL OVER THE HOUSE and putting away his gigantic man-shoes and locating his wallet and keys and returning them to home base and stacking all his papers on his desk instead of in 15 locations all over the house including on the kitchen prep surfaces and OH MAYBE it's covered in strawberry jam because YOU LEFT IT ON THE COUNTER AND MADE A SANDWICH ON TOP OF IT?
It's not so much the part where he leaves a trail of his shit everywhere he goes -- I have long since come to terms with that, and I assign him annoying, in-depth chores like cleaning the bathroom since I have to do all the little niggling ongoing chores like picking up clutter as he suffers from male-pattern blindness to household clutter. That part's fine, it's a fair trade to me. It's the part where HE COMPLAINS ABOUT THE VERY SMALL CHILDREN LEAVING A MESS while HE, A GROWN-ASS MAN, DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. It drives me craaaaaaaazy that it pisses him off when other people do it but he doesn't realize he does it too.
(Also it is moderately crazy-making that he notices the kids' mess enough to complain about it, but not to fix the situation, because the cleaning fairy will do that. Every now and then the cleaning fairy gets annoyed enough about it to engage in a war of attrition with her husband, but this basically never works as I always crack before he gets irritated enough to clean things.)
True cleaning fairy story: Earlier this year, my husband looked in the fridge and said, "Ugh, looks like we're going to have to clean the fridge, it's pretty gross in here." And I was like, "Yeah, I haven't had a chance to get to it yet." And he said, "Well, it's a pretty good fridge I guess, this is the first time we've had to clean it in the ten years since we got it." Long pause. Me: "Are you fucking kidding me?" "What?" "Husband, I clean it two to four times a year, every year! Did you think some kind of magical cleaning fairy just came and wiped up all your spills in the night?" "I ... guess so? Maybe ... I should clean it this time?" "YEAH MAYBE YOU SHOULD."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:41 AM on July 26, 2015 [115 favorites]
My #1 top annoyance right now is that my husband is CONSTANTLY COMPLAINING about how the kids don't clean up after themselves -- which they do not, and it is irritating, but they are 6 and 4 -- while HE HIMSELF leaves a trail of destruction in his wake that he NEVER CLEANS UP. I probably spend 15 minutes every day just collecting his dirty dishes from ALL OVER THE HOUSE and putting away his gigantic man-shoes and locating his wallet and keys and returning them to home base and stacking all his papers on his desk instead of in 15 locations all over the house including on the kitchen prep surfaces and OH MAYBE it's covered in strawberry jam because YOU LEFT IT ON THE COUNTER AND MADE A SANDWICH ON TOP OF IT?
It's not so much the part where he leaves a trail of his shit everywhere he goes -- I have long since come to terms with that, and I assign him annoying, in-depth chores like cleaning the bathroom since I have to do all the little niggling ongoing chores like picking up clutter as he suffers from male-pattern blindness to household clutter. That part's fine, it's a fair trade to me. It's the part where HE COMPLAINS ABOUT THE VERY SMALL CHILDREN LEAVING A MESS while HE, A GROWN-ASS MAN, DOES THE SAME DAMN THING. It drives me craaaaaaaazy that it pisses him off when other people do it but he doesn't realize he does it too.
(Also it is moderately crazy-making that he notices the kids' mess enough to complain about it, but not to fix the situation, because the cleaning fairy will do that. Every now and then the cleaning fairy gets annoyed enough about it to engage in a war of attrition with her husband, but this basically never works as I always crack before he gets irritated enough to clean things.)
True cleaning fairy story: Earlier this year, my husband looked in the fridge and said, "Ugh, looks like we're going to have to clean the fridge, it's pretty gross in here." And I was like, "Yeah, I haven't had a chance to get to it yet." And he said, "Well, it's a pretty good fridge I guess, this is the first time we've had to clean it in the ten years since we got it." Long pause. Me: "Are you fucking kidding me?" "What?" "Husband, I clean it two to four times a year, every year! Did you think some kind of magical cleaning fairy just came and wiped up all your spills in the night?" "I ... guess so? Maybe ... I should clean it this time?" "YEAH MAYBE YOU SHOULD."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:41 AM on July 26, 2015 [115 favorites]
Ha! The Cleaning Fairy!
Here's a true story: Years ago I was working a 50hr/wk job, while my lovely husband had recently gotten a job that allowed him to work parttime, from home, for a fulltime salary. At the time he was in a sports league on weekends, and was always encouraging me to come hang out with them on Saturdays, which I refused to do because I felt it necessary to clean the house (we had multiple big dogs then, the house really did need a deep cleaning that often). At some point I lost my shit and said "no more!" and stopped cleaning the house. I didn't nag, I didn't even say a word about it, I just stopped and waited to see what would happen. Finally, FINALLY one day the hubby said to me "don't you think WE should clean the house?".
It was the longest 2 months of my life, y'all.
(And my answer was "Sure! What chores would YOU like to do?")
posted by vignettist at 9:02 AM on July 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
Here's a true story: Years ago I was working a 50hr/wk job, while my lovely husband had recently gotten a job that allowed him to work parttime, from home, for a fulltime salary. At the time he was in a sports league on weekends, and was always encouraging me to come hang out with them on Saturdays, which I refused to do because I felt it necessary to clean the house (we had multiple big dogs then, the house really did need a deep cleaning that often). At some point I lost my shit and said "no more!" and stopped cleaning the house. I didn't nag, I didn't even say a word about it, I just stopped and waited to see what would happen. Finally, FINALLY one day the hubby said to me "don't you think WE should clean the house?".
It was the longest 2 months of my life, y'all.
(And my answer was "Sure! What chores would YOU like to do?")
posted by vignettist at 9:02 AM on July 26, 2015 [25 favorites]
Well, it's a pretty good fridge I guess
I-
Did he-
Did he think the fridge was eating the mess?
posted by Lyn Never at 9:02 AM on July 26, 2015 [84 favorites]
I-
Did he-
Did he think the fridge was eating the mess?
posted by Lyn Never at 9:02 AM on July 26, 2015 [84 favorites]
Okay, the cleaning story aside, this thread has made me realize even more all of the EL that my hubby does, and the fact that in our relationship I am actually the one who needs to work on doing more. On acknowledging and demonstrating my appreciation more.
Neither of us ever had this language to describe our frustrations. During fights it comes out like "you're not LISTENING to me!", but that's not quite right. I'm often on the receiving end of that complaint and to be candid I am usually baffled during our arguments because I'm like "what are you talking about? I'm doing my share by doing stuff you don't want to do, and you're doing your share by doing stuff I don't want to do". Thanks to this thread I can see where I've been falling short, and where I need to do more work.
Honestly, for a long time I've been feeling like the problems in our marriage are all my husband's fault, due to his fighting style (ie, he holds his frustration in and then fights, rather than just saying "hey, this is bugging me" in a calm manner, at the time that it occurs. I can't do anything with "I'm pissed at you for that thing you did six months ago!". Some of that is Ask vs Guess, some of it is just learned behavior from his family.) But now I have a clearer understanding of how most of the stuff that triggers him is EL that I need to be doing. Damn it.
posted by vignettist at 9:25 AM on July 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
Neither of us ever had this language to describe our frustrations. During fights it comes out like "you're not LISTENING to me!", but that's not quite right. I'm often on the receiving end of that complaint and to be candid I am usually baffled during our arguments because I'm like "what are you talking about? I'm doing my share by doing stuff you don't want to do, and you're doing your share by doing stuff I don't want to do". Thanks to this thread I can see where I've been falling short, and where I need to do more work.
Honestly, for a long time I've been feeling like the problems in our marriage are all my husband's fault, due to his fighting style (ie, he holds his frustration in and then fights, rather than just saying "hey, this is bugging me" in a calm manner, at the time that it occurs. I can't do anything with "I'm pissed at you for that thing you did six months ago!". Some of that is Ask vs Guess, some of it is just learned behavior from his family.) But now I have a clearer understanding of how most of the stuff that triggers him is EL that I need to be doing. Damn it.
posted by vignettist at 9:25 AM on July 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
Ours always went like:
him: you think I'm such an asshole *pout*
me, trying to soothe him: no, I never called you that, I said I had a problem with [behavior]
I really, really thought this was just me, and that if I had a better way of phrasing my requests then I would get a better response. Or if I had been nicer about the way I addressed things 15-20 years ago we wouldn't have this reservoir of distrust or something. I have been through so many rounds of:
Me: < tries to set boundary or make request >
Him: "You just think I'm terrible person, and no matter what I do you assume the worst!"
Me: D-:
Exhausting.
posted by jeoc at 9:35 AM on July 26, 2015 [34 favorites]
him: you think I'm such an asshole *pout*
me, trying to soothe him: no, I never called you that, I said I had a problem with [behavior]
I really, really thought this was just me, and that if I had a better way of phrasing my requests then I would get a better response. Or if I had been nicer about the way I addressed things 15-20 years ago we wouldn't have this reservoir of distrust or something. I have been through so many rounds of:
Me: < tries to set boundary or make request >
Him: "You just think I'm terrible person, and no matter what I do you assume the worst!"
Me: D-:
Exhausting.
posted by jeoc at 9:35 AM on July 26, 2015 [34 favorites]
mimi: Ah, yes, the "communal" purse. I know that territory all too well.
I remember one day when my ex and I were wrapping up a marital therapy appointment that was particularly eye-opening for me, and I reached into my backpack to get my wallet. It took me a long time to find it because my backpack was so full - I had to dig under not just my own things, but also his wallet, glasses, book, etc. The therapist took this opportunity to point out that I was literally carrying ALL of his personal stuff on my shoulders. And I got it. The lightbulb went on. It was a perfect metaphor for the emotional dynamics of our relationship. No wonder I felt overburdened.
One of the reasons I love living alone these days, and will so staunchly defend my solitude against intrusions, is that it's the only way I can reliably find respite from at least some of the draining of my energy that happens through microagressions and demands for unrewarded emotional labour - whether those demands are placed on me through work, through personal relationships with men who don't reciprocate or value the emotional labour I do, or through just going about my daily affairs in the world.
posted by velvet winter at 9:36 AM on July 26, 2015 [36 favorites]
I remember one day when my ex and I were wrapping up a marital therapy appointment that was particularly eye-opening for me, and I reached into my backpack to get my wallet. It took me a long time to find it because my backpack was so full - I had to dig under not just my own things, but also his wallet, glasses, book, etc. The therapist took this opportunity to point out that I was literally carrying ALL of his personal stuff on my shoulders. And I got it. The lightbulb went on. It was a perfect metaphor for the emotional dynamics of our relationship. No wonder I felt overburdened.
One of the reasons I love living alone these days, and will so staunchly defend my solitude against intrusions, is that it's the only way I can reliably find respite from at least some of the draining of my energy that happens through microagressions and demands for unrewarded emotional labour - whether those demands are placed on me through work, through personal relationships with men who don't reciprocate or value the emotional labour I do, or through just going about my daily affairs in the world.
posted by velvet winter at 9:36 AM on July 26, 2015 [36 favorites]
It's actually hit me that this is why I may be single - I would never in a million years carry a guy's stuff in my bag for him unless we were on a joint shopping expedition and he ran out of room on his person because he already had stuffed things in his bag. Dude, that's your stuff, either deal with pockets or get a messenger bag.
A lot of the things people are talking about up thread are things I realize (to my eternal joy) that I would never put up with in the first place ("wtf, dude, carry your own shit"). I've been happy about having that kind of inner badass or grit or whatever - but it just hit me that maybe guys have been picking up on that and noping out on me after the first date because it intimidates them.
Which is awesome and sucky in absolutely equal measure.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:50 AM on July 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
A lot of the things people are talking about up thread are things I realize (to my eternal joy) that I would never put up with in the first place ("wtf, dude, carry your own shit"). I've been happy about having that kind of inner badass or grit or whatever - but it just hit me that maybe guys have been picking up on that and noping out on me after the first date because it intimidates them.
Which is awesome and sucky in absolutely equal measure.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:50 AM on July 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
Every time I pass through an area, I pick something up or put something away or fix something while on my way to do something else. It slows me down a bit, but it also moves several discrete projects forward in an efficient way. You have no idea how much it pisses me off when my husband refers to this as "beagling.
This is one of the areas where my wife and I flip the script. I would take your situation in a heartbeat because a term for it would indicate an awareness that it's getting done. I have long since ceased to ask "why would you walk right past that glass in your way to the kitchen?" because hearing "I just didn't see it/think about it" got too infuriating. Which is also coupled with some sort of binary observation, where the house is either totally clean or it's equally messy. So after a few hours of my walking around putting things back where they belong or clearing her diet coke cans and glasses from random resting places... she perceives zero change. Please grodd, let her notice I have been beagling all day and say something about it!
posted by phearlez at 9:51 AM on July 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
That fridge story is a perfect encapsulation. Wow. Heh.
posted by Miko at 10:01 AM on July 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 10:01 AM on July 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread, y'all. So much YES. That frisson from putting all the pieces together into one kind of Grand Unified Theory of what has gone wrong in so many relationships...it's a heady feeling. Like so many others, I feel like I finally have the language to articulate exactly why certain actions - or the lack thereof - bothered me.
I'm remembering the dude who insisted on buying me flowers every week even though I hated them and explicitly said I didn't want them. I thought I was annoyed simply because he was being selfish and boundary-disrespecting. These things are true. But the deep root of my annoyance, that I've only just now comprehended, is that every week he would get flowers and I would react with something less than unbridled joy and he would get all mopey until I coaxed him out of it. He was making me do emotional labor for both of us all because he just wouldn't fucking listen to what I liked or disliked. He just "liked giving women flowers."
The guy I'm with now is an outstanding feminist but we have had some minor but common-thread issues. I realize now that they come down to his lack of practice with emotional labor. Count me among the women in this thread who are happy with their partners, but if this guy doesn't meet the standards that I'm finally better able to articulate, I'm off to Crone Island for a few years.
(As far as what I'll bring to the island, well, I'm really really good at cleaning kitchens and bathrooms til they're spotless, which is hilarious to me as a feminist and scientist who would feel so bored without work, but there we are.)
posted by nicodine at 11:18 AM on July 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm remembering the dude who insisted on buying me flowers every week even though I hated them and explicitly said I didn't want them. I thought I was annoyed simply because he was being selfish and boundary-disrespecting. These things are true. But the deep root of my annoyance, that I've only just now comprehended, is that every week he would get flowers and I would react with something less than unbridled joy and he would get all mopey until I coaxed him out of it. He was making me do emotional labor for both of us all because he just wouldn't fucking listen to what I liked or disliked. He just "liked giving women flowers."
The guy I'm with now is an outstanding feminist but we have had some minor but common-thread issues. I realize now that they come down to his lack of practice with emotional labor. Count me among the women in this thread who are happy with their partners, but if this guy doesn't meet the standards that I'm finally better able to articulate, I'm off to Crone Island for a few years.
(As far as what I'll bring to the island, well, I'm really really good at cleaning kitchens and bathrooms til they're spotless, which is hilarious to me as a feminist and scientist who would feel so bored without work, but there we are.)
posted by nicodine at 11:18 AM on July 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
Women in higher education leadership roles in Africa have described their gender as an extra job they must perform on top of their role as an academic, according to new research.
A study based on interviews with five female leaders at universities in sub-Saharan Africa has found that women in the region feel they are expected to serve as role models or maternal figures as well as leaders.
Ane Turner Johnson, associate professor in the College of Education at Rowan University, New Jersey, and author of the paper “Performing and defying gender: women’s leadership experiences in African HE”, presented her findings at a Society for Research into Higher Education conference on women and higher education leadership in developing countries on 13 July.
She said the formal workplace roles of the women she interviewed typically involved providing direction for the institution, but they also had informal roles that they “knew it was expected for them to fulfil”.
“That was being a mother and a role model, which often overlapped with their personal identities, and which they could see were actually rewarding even though it came with additional work,” she said. “What I felt that these women described was gender as a job that they did on top of their formal jobs.”
However, despite these responsibilities involving “extra work”, Dr Johnson said interviewees described their nurturing roles as helping them “influence their colleagues and the direction of the organisation”.
“These intersections, while challenging, enabled their service to the campus in a much more holistic manner, they thought,” she said.
posted by infini at 12:38 PM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
A study based on interviews with five female leaders at universities in sub-Saharan Africa has found that women in the region feel they are expected to serve as role models or maternal figures as well as leaders.
Ane Turner Johnson, associate professor in the College of Education at Rowan University, New Jersey, and author of the paper “Performing and defying gender: women’s leadership experiences in African HE”, presented her findings at a Society for Research into Higher Education conference on women and higher education leadership in developing countries on 13 July.
She said the formal workplace roles of the women she interviewed typically involved providing direction for the institution, but they also had informal roles that they “knew it was expected for them to fulfil”.
“That was being a mother and a role model, which often overlapped with their personal identities, and which they could see were actually rewarding even though it came with additional work,” she said. “What I felt that these women described was gender as a job that they did on top of their formal jobs.”
However, despite these responsibilities involving “extra work”, Dr Johnson said interviewees described their nurturing roles as helping them “influence their colleagues and the direction of the organisation”.
“These intersections, while challenging, enabled their service to the campus in a much more holistic manner, they thought,” she said.
posted by infini at 12:38 PM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
Ok, this business with guys wanting you to carry their stuff is absurd. It's not like finding men's clothing with pockets is difficult. I think you have to actually try to find things without pockets. In stark contrast with women's clothing.
posted by ktkt at 1:14 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by ktkt at 1:14 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Add me to the (now very long) list of former lurkers that has chosen to pay up and officially join the MeFi community because of my reading of this thread.
I feel like I should share this: My partner (now-fiancee) is the individual who wrote this post almost 4 years ago [she gave me permission to out her as the author of the anonymous post]. She got out of that horrible relationship soon thereafter. I was also in a similar relationship for nearly ten years, one that I finally left about two years ago. This community’s advice in the linked post gave her the permission and support to leave, and when she saw the state of my relationship, she shared much of the same advice with me that you all gave to her.
She also showed me this thread about a week ago, and I have been slowly reading through it, becoming more and more horrified at how so many of you have been treated. I have had more than a few “oh, shit, I need to stop being such an ass” moments as well. So not only have you all helped us both get out of awful marriage situations, you’ve also given us the framework and language to understand and improve our current relationship. It also brings it full circle that many of the people posting here are the same ones who gave her advice in the askme I linked above.
So yeah. Even though I’ve just joined this community, you all need to know that you change people’s lives. Lots of people’s lives.
I barely know you all, but I appreciate what you do. Thank you. So, so much thank you.
posted by concertedchaos at 1:25 PM on July 26, 2015 [46 favorites]
I feel like I should share this: My partner (now-fiancee) is the individual who wrote this post almost 4 years ago [she gave me permission to out her as the author of the anonymous post]. She got out of that horrible relationship soon thereafter. I was also in a similar relationship for nearly ten years, one that I finally left about two years ago. This community’s advice in the linked post gave her the permission and support to leave, and when she saw the state of my relationship, she shared much of the same advice with me that you all gave to her.
She also showed me this thread about a week ago, and I have been slowly reading through it, becoming more and more horrified at how so many of you have been treated. I have had more than a few “oh, shit, I need to stop being such an ass” moments as well. So not only have you all helped us both get out of awful marriage situations, you’ve also given us the framework and language to understand and improve our current relationship. It also brings it full circle that many of the people posting here are the same ones who gave her advice in the askme I linked above.
So yeah. Even though I’ve just joined this community, you all need to know that you change people’s lives. Lots of people’s lives.
I barely know you all, but I appreciate what you do. Thank you. So, so much thank you.
posted by concertedchaos at 1:25 PM on July 26, 2015 [46 favorites]
*mails concertedchaos honorary Crone Island visitor badge valid twice a year*
posted by infini at 1:28 PM on July 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by infini at 1:28 PM on July 26, 2015 [9 favorites]
Friend's reaction to the Crone Island concept and travel poster: Will there be cro-nuts there? Me: Sure!
posted by carmicha at 1:31 PM on July 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 1:31 PM on July 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
and the cronut baker/fryer always has someone there to hang out in the kitchen and provide fresh beers/companionship while she works on the dough
posted by kagredon at 1:43 PM on July 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by kagredon at 1:43 PM on July 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
But we will call them crone-nuts!
posted by futz at 1:45 PM on July 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by futz at 1:45 PM on July 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
From the question waaaaay upthread about doing emotional labor professionally, I'm an attorney and a serious portion of my job involves talking to my clients and letting them feel safe enough to talk to me about difficult experiences, and this is fairly explicitly on my schedule. For me going to law school was a way to monetize that I've always been the person at the party that people tell their deep weird secrets to. The emotional labor portion of my job can be wearing, but for real: my assistants are the heavy lifters here and I try to back them up and recognize their work whenever I can, because I do not know how I would do my job without them.
One of the things about having emotional labor be part of my job is that I'm a lot more aware of it as an issue in my personal life, and I've been much more able to cut out of my life people who expect me to look out for them without reciprocation.
I volunteer to supply Crone Island with tea, homemade halva and other allergy-friendly snacks.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:13 PM on July 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
One of the things about having emotional labor be part of my job is that I'm a lot more aware of it as an issue in my personal life, and I've been much more able to cut out of my life people who expect me to look out for them without reciprocation.
I volunteer to supply Crone Island with tea, homemade halva and other allergy-friendly snacks.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:13 PM on July 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
In my former position at the company (office manager) all I did was emotional labor from the minute I walked in the door to the time I went home. It is literally a job around providing support for everyone in the office, at least the way I did it. I started taking lunches away from the building, not because I could afford it, but because for 30 minutes in my day I wasn't responsible for anyone else. Compounded, of course, by the fact that the minute I got home from work a fresh set of demands were put on me.
And dude, I love my pets but can someone else be responsible for a while? Sometimes when the person responsible for the house says no to a pet even though they love animals, what they are really saying no to is being responsible for yet another effin' thing. It's not that they don't enjoy the companionship but it is another demand (however small) on their time and energy and omg it can be the straw on the camels back. So, when we say 'only if you take care of it' that really is what we mean. 'It's only a bag of food, and water, and letting them out.' No. It's taking them to the vet and keeping an eye on them to be sure they stay healthy and grooming them and playing with them and and and and.
I'm out of 'and'.
posted by ladyriffraff at 2:52 PM on July 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
And dude, I love my pets but can someone else be responsible for a while? Sometimes when the person responsible for the house says no to a pet even though they love animals, what they are really saying no to is being responsible for yet another effin' thing. It's not that they don't enjoy the companionship but it is another demand (however small) on their time and energy and omg it can be the straw on the camels back. So, when we say 'only if you take care of it' that really is what we mean. 'It's only a bag of food, and water, and letting them out.' No. It's taking them to the vet and keeping an eye on them to be sure they stay healthy and grooming them and playing with them and and and and.
I'm out of 'and'.
posted by ladyriffraff at 2:52 PM on July 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
And dude, I love my pets but can someone else be responsible for a while?
Hah, this. I'm still working on the room that's supposed to be my office (protip: when creating A Room of One's Own, don't get the great idea to remediate the lead painted windowsills, no matter how gorgeous the wood is underneath), so right now my computer's still in our living room. On rainy days, every time I slide my chair even a tiny bit back from my desk my dogs jump up like Oh God Is Something Happening That Has To Do With Dogs Please Can We Do Something Oh God Please Do Something Interesting. And rainy days aren't my strong suit anyway, so there are days where, combined with other demands on my plate, I just cannot deal with this level of neediness.
I should probably never have children of my own, is what I'm saying.
posted by deludingmyself at 3:09 PM on July 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
Hah, this. I'm still working on the room that's supposed to be my office (protip: when creating A Room of One's Own, don't get the great idea to remediate the lead painted windowsills, no matter how gorgeous the wood is underneath), so right now my computer's still in our living room. On rainy days, every time I slide my chair even a tiny bit back from my desk my dogs jump up like Oh God Is Something Happening That Has To Do With Dogs Please Can We Do Something Oh God Please Do Something Interesting. And rainy days aren't my strong suit anyway, so there are days where, combined with other demands on my plate, I just cannot deal with this level of neediness.
I should probably never have children of my own, is what I'm saying.
posted by deludingmyself at 3:09 PM on July 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think the question about EL as part of professional employment may have been mine, and I realise now how badly-worded that question was. Clearly EL is part of every woman's job, simply because she is a woman. I'd been thinking of explicitly service-oriented jobs, but yeah, it's the implicit expectations that make every job into a service job.
posted by Athanassiel at 3:13 PM on July 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Athanassiel at 3:13 PM on July 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
> Ok, this business with guys wanting you to carry their stuff is absurd.
No kidding! I've been aghast at that since it was first mentioned. I'm a guy, and I have never once in my life asked, much less expected, a woman to carry my crap in her purse, and as far as I know I've never seen it happen, so I've led a sheltered existence in this as in other ways, and this thread has opened my eyes once again.
Listen up, guys! Carry your own shit!! Women carry too much of the world on their backs already, they don't need your goddam wallet and cell phone!
posted by languagehat at 3:25 PM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
No kidding! I've been aghast at that since it was first mentioned. I'm a guy, and I have never once in my life asked, much less expected, a woman to carry my crap in her purse, and as far as I know I've never seen it happen, so I've led a sheltered existence in this as in other ways, and this thread has opened my eyes once again.
Listen up, guys! Carry your own shit!! Women carry too much of the world on their backs already, they don't need your goddam wallet and cell phone!
posted by languagehat at 3:25 PM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sometimes when the person responsible for the house says no to a pet even though they love animals, what they are really saying no to is being responsible for yet another effin' thing.
I have a sickly piglet in my shirt right now. My daughter is shocked that I won't talk to her about getting another dog.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:29 PM on July 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
I have a sickly piglet in my shirt right now. My daughter is shocked that I won't talk to her about getting another dog.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:29 PM on July 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
Me (via e-mail): I have resolved to get better about cards and gift-giving. I've always had so much anxiety about it, even as a teenager. Do you think I suck at it?
Mom: Yes, pretty much. But I love you anyway.
[Pause while I take care of shit around the house before replying]
[Come back to six e-mails in a row from my mom apologizing if she hurt my feelings, criticizing her own gift-giving skills, reassuring me about mine, asking if I want to do gift-giving differently with her, etc.]
posted by HotToddy at 4:08 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Mom: Yes, pretty much. But I love you anyway.
[Pause while I take care of shit around the house before replying]
[Come back to six e-mails in a row from my mom apologizing if she hurt my feelings, criticizing her own gift-giving skills, reassuring me about mine, asking if I want to do gift-giving differently with her, etc.]
posted by HotToddy at 4:08 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
Oh God, HotToddy, do we have the same mother?
posted by restless_nomad at 4:09 PM on July 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by restless_nomad at 4:09 PM on July 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
HotToddy, I feel your mom so much. *has done THAT EXACT FLURRY OF WORRY-DANCING*
You start out saying something honest and reasonable and then the WHAT IF goes into overdrive. OH GOD WHAT IF THIS IS THE LAST STRAW WHAT IF THEY WON'T SPEAK TO ME WHAT IF THEY THINK I THINK I AM SUPERIOR THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEANT OH GOD WHAT IF THEY THINK I MEANT THEY COULD NEVER DO BETTER WHAT IF THEY THINK I DON'T LOVE THEM I AM SO SORRYYYYYYYY
... which, now that I write it out, is everything I have been conditioned to do every time I potentially offend a man.
Wow.
posted by E. Whitehall at 4:11 PM on July 26, 2015 [46 favorites]
You start out saying something honest and reasonable and then the WHAT IF goes into overdrive. OH GOD WHAT IF THIS IS THE LAST STRAW WHAT IF THEY WON'T SPEAK TO ME WHAT IF THEY THINK I THINK I AM SUPERIOR THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEANT OH GOD WHAT IF THEY THINK I MEANT THEY COULD NEVER DO BETTER WHAT IF THEY THINK I DON'T LOVE THEM I AM SO SORRYYYYYYYY
... which, now that I write it out, is everything I have been conditioned to do every time I potentially offend a man.
Wow.
posted by E. Whitehall at 4:11 PM on July 26, 2015 [46 favorites]
My mother reflexively apologizes to inanimate objects she drops/knocks over/offends. We laugh about it, but in light of this thread it's slightly horrifying.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:13 PM on July 26, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 4:13 PM on July 26, 2015 [24 favorites]
(Forreal, that's what she said, so cute) (Then I do the other half of the dance, reassuring her that she didn't hurt my feelings, etc.)
posted by HotToddy at 4:20 PM on July 26, 2015
posted by HotToddy at 4:20 PM on July 26, 2015
Not that feeling you have to apologize for giving an honest answer to a direct question is cute. That's bullshit. Just the way that she put it is cute.
posted by HotToddy at 4:23 PM on July 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 4:23 PM on July 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sorry, having a revelation moment here. This shit is conditioned response. I mean, the flurry of worry in response to a delay -- shit, I've done that, and it's not because of them exactly, it's because of the ways that people I have loved in my life -- especially men, especially my father and boyfriends -- have responded to even the slightest bit of criticism. With the sulking, and the implicit threat of emotional withdrawal (or the actual practice of emotional withdrawal!), the silent treatment, the immediate defensiveness which I feel obligated to talk down and soothe and actualise for them, and it takes hours and there's the total withdrawal and the mocking and the refusal to lift even one finger for anything and the sitting in your way blocking things or just disappearing altogether without a word and refusing to answer email or phone or anything like that, all the stuff other people have described upthread.
All the flurry and instant anxiety is an attempt to head that off at the pass -- it's going to happen anyway, it happens so often, there's such a risk of it happening again, so why not do it all at once just in case I can soothe them enough to avoid all that? To avoid the feeling of panicking about whether they don't love me anymore, whether this is one moment too far and they never speak to me again and never come back and never like me again?
Ooof. Shiiiiiit.
What is this even called, 'conditioned response to interpersonal violence'? Conditioned fear of abandonment? I dunno. Shit. I mean, this is kind of interpersonal violence, maybe? Ahhh, doubting myself now! But I've always seen that kind of silence and passiveness and defensiveness as a threat, somehow. It's always felt threatening, like the prospect of an ultimatum. Maybe I am just really bad at communication, or having arguments. Though I've had productive arguments, but generally only with people who actually speak to me about what's happening, and it's harder to have a productive argument with someone who makes you beg for the basis of the argument to begin with. Eeeeesh.
That is fucked up.
posted by E. Whitehall at 4:26 PM on July 26, 2015 [41 favorites]
All the flurry and instant anxiety is an attempt to head that off at the pass -- it's going to happen anyway, it happens so often, there's such a risk of it happening again, so why not do it all at once just in case I can soothe them enough to avoid all that? To avoid the feeling of panicking about whether they don't love me anymore, whether this is one moment too far and they never speak to me again and never come back and never like me again?
Ooof. Shiiiiiit.
What is this even called, 'conditioned response to interpersonal violence'? Conditioned fear of abandonment? I dunno. Shit. I mean, this is kind of interpersonal violence, maybe? Ahhh, doubting myself now! But I've always seen that kind of silence and passiveness and defensiveness as a threat, somehow. It's always felt threatening, like the prospect of an ultimatum. Maybe I am just really bad at communication, or having arguments. Though I've had productive arguments, but generally only with people who actually speak to me about what's happening, and it's harder to have a productive argument with someone who makes you beg for the basis of the argument to begin with. Eeeeesh.
That is fucked up.
posted by E. Whitehall at 4:26 PM on July 26, 2015 [41 favorites]
count me as another person who has been reading this thread all week.
I am another woman who was pretty much raised by wolves w/r/t the EL front (mom resentfully did her Proper Duty as a slavish Child of the 50s whilst attempting in the same breath to Speak Feminist Truth to Power against it along with being generally distant and unengaged as a parent and I simply couldn't be arsed as a youth to unravel that whole mess).
This thread has finally given me the proper framing to understand the part where my poor social skills, general cluelessness and all of the anxiety surrounding it from things like partners, friends and people at work telling me repeatedly how shitty my interpersonal skills are has led me to stamp about in the world with my giant Hobnail Boots Of Ain't Give A Damn on, generally making a mess.
I thought about this thread a whole bunch while I was riding my bike around in the mountains for five hours today. And I could write a whole shitload about that, but the tl;dr: summary is:
I really really need to send a thank you email to my coach, who is an emotional labor genius and has been part bicycle ninja kung fu skills advisor and part endlessly patient therapist for me all summer. Sure I pay him for coaching, but that doesn't acknowledge the amount of sheer hard EL work he does for me and everyone else on the team (a considerable amount of it done pro bono).
And I also need to go give my husband a hug for putting up with my shit.
posted by lonefrontranger at 5:06 PM on July 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
I am another woman who was pretty much raised by wolves w/r/t the EL front (mom resentfully did her Proper Duty as a slavish Child of the 50s whilst attempting in the same breath to Speak Feminist Truth to Power against it along with being generally distant and unengaged as a parent and I simply couldn't be arsed as a youth to unravel that whole mess).
This thread has finally given me the proper framing to understand the part where my poor social skills, general cluelessness and all of the anxiety surrounding it from things like partners, friends and people at work telling me repeatedly how shitty my interpersonal skills are has led me to stamp about in the world with my giant Hobnail Boots Of Ain't Give A Damn on, generally making a mess.
I thought about this thread a whole bunch while I was riding my bike around in the mountains for five hours today. And I could write a whole shitload about that, but the tl;dr: summary is:
I really really need to send a thank you email to my coach, who is an emotional labor genius and has been part bicycle ninja kung fu skills advisor and part endlessly patient therapist for me all summer. Sure I pay him for coaching, but that doesn't acknowledge the amount of sheer hard EL work he does for me and everyone else on the team (a considerable amount of it done pro bono).
And I also need to go give my husband a hug for putting up with my shit.
posted by lonefrontranger at 5:06 PM on July 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
My partner said most of what I wanted to say at the end of this thread. We've been talking about it since the night it was posted and it really has been a series of revelations, for both of us. And while I could tell a lot of stories about how bad previous partners have been (which, I guess is unnecessary if you read the thread he linked in that comment!), I'm feeling incredibly lucky to have a partner who is one of the good ones. He's a lot better than me with cards and checking in with people, and he does his fair share of the cleaning, and is a seriously functional human being.
We both work in K-12 education and had trouble articulating why it was so much harder to keep up with friends and family during the beginning and end of every school year. Since both of us are also introverts and teachers who tend towards the nurturing (read: more emotional labour!) side, there's barely anything left over at the end of the day. We are hoping to figure out ways that we can take care of each other better so this school year doesn't leave us quite as exhausted. Because right now, frankly, the idea of adding a newborn to the equation is kind of terrifying.
I did tell him he could visit Crone Island. He'll definitely pitch in with the dishes. He also makes excellent tacos.
Thank you all again for the stories, the empathy, the shared feelings and experiences, and for creating the kind of place where these can all be shared.
posted by guster4lovers at 5:08 PM on July 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
We both work in K-12 education and had trouble articulating why it was so much harder to keep up with friends and family during the beginning and end of every school year. Since both of us are also introverts and teachers who tend towards the nurturing (read: more emotional labour!) side, there's barely anything left over at the end of the day. We are hoping to figure out ways that we can take care of each other better so this school year doesn't leave us quite as exhausted. Because right now, frankly, the idea of adding a newborn to the equation is kind of terrifying.
I did tell him he could visit Crone Island. He'll definitely pitch in with the dishes. He also makes excellent tacos.
Thank you all again for the stories, the empathy, the shared feelings and experiences, and for creating the kind of place where these can all be shared.
posted by guster4lovers at 5:08 PM on July 26, 2015 [17 favorites]
Hey friends, there's a new dance in town. It's called The Fuck That Shit Boogie. It has slides into care less-ness and back turns into solo twirls just when your partner or troupe want you to catch their well practised fails. So come on down to Club Crone and dance to the beat of your own drum, amongst friends.
posted by Thella at 5:14 PM on July 26, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by Thella at 5:14 PM on July 26, 2015 [23 favorites]
The Worry dance so well articulated by E. Whitehall is just awful and is part of the reason some perfomances of emotional labour connect into concepts of co-dependency in my mind.
This thread has created so many revelations for us all and spot-lighted so many indicators of EL shortfalls in relationships that I wonder if Crone Corp should get into the red flag market.
posted by Thella at 5:28 PM on July 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread has created so many revelations for us all and spot-lighted so many indicators of EL shortfalls in relationships that I wonder if Crone Corp should get into the red flag market.
posted by Thella at 5:28 PM on July 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thinking more about it: this is part of why all of my relationships have been so short-lived! I mean the longest I've had lasted about six months, and what I've worked out is that while I do have the squirrely-anxiety conditioning (thanks, dad! it doesn't bother me at all when you're willing to refuse to speak to me for three months because I told you not to send me right-wing news items! why did I even let that immature bullshit keep me up at night, ugh) it tends to take up a lot of my emotional labour space just continually dealing with this one man who does it. So there's not much left over to deal with it from anyone else.
I mean, I put up with it from my dad because my dad and he's quite old and everyone tells me he'll never change and there's no point and also he's old and he'll die eventually and then NO MORE, OMG, but it's like the combination of getting it from my dad, plus getting it from a boyfriend, turns me into some sort of walking explosion of volcanic resentment. I am realising I do actually volcanically resent it and it's not because I'm a bad oversensitive girlfriend who needs to just ~let this shit go~, it's because my buffer for that shit is already full and I don't have infinite cope with that kind of immature behaviour. This is actually a thing I was blaming myself for. Geeeeez, self.
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2015 [27 favorites]
I mean, I put up with it from my dad because my dad and he's quite old and everyone tells me he'll never change and there's no point and also he's old and he'll die eventually and then NO MORE, OMG, but it's like the combination of getting it from my dad, plus getting it from a boyfriend, turns me into some sort of walking explosion of volcanic resentment. I am realising I do actually volcanically resent it and it's not because I'm a bad oversensitive girlfriend who needs to just ~let this shit go~, it's because my buffer for that shit is already full and I don't have infinite cope with that kind of immature behaviour. This is actually a thing I was blaming myself for. Geeeeez, self.
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:30 PM on July 26, 2015 [27 favorites]
Like, up until TODAY I was actively spending part of my days wondering if I was volcanically resenting this behaviour because I was just that shitty a daughter and a nice girl would just accept that This Is The Way He Is and why can't I be nicer.
picardfacepalm.gif
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:34 PM on July 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
picardfacepalm.gif
posted by E. Whitehall at 5:34 PM on July 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
My mother reflexively apologizes to inanimate objects she drops/knocks over/offends.
Your mother is a crouton petter.
And oh god, the flurry of "oh fuck did I say the wrong thing" emails. I do that.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:46 PM on July 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Your mother is a crouton petter.
And oh god, the flurry of "oh fuck did I say the wrong thing" emails. I do that.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:46 PM on July 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, some of us have parents who--well, I kind of wish my mother would apologize to me ever about a misunderstanding, or do any emotional heavy lifting here. It's... I reflexively overapologize anytime I'm not someone she feels perfectly comfortable with, or that I express opinions she doesn't approve of. I bend over backwards around my mother to tiptoe around her emotions, I apologize after fights, I spend a ton of emotional energy around trying to anticipate her responses to me and shape them in a good way. It is exhausting, and I distance myself because it's exhausting.
And it's made me just run from basically every kind of formal emotional labor that might involve my family. Like, birthday cards, Christmas cards, holiday visits, hospital cards, birthday presents, phone calls, answering my email, commenting on social media--these are all things that I've just stopped doing because it's so exhausting to put up with my mother's commentary (and to a lesser extent my extended family's).
Don't get me wrong, she does a crap ton of emotional labor for my dad and his family and she very clearly felt pressured to have everything perfect while I was growing up. But just, the stress of that and not having a ton of support and, and, oh, fuck--I think she displaced some of that onto me when I was a kid, and it's a recipe for... not good mother/daughter relationships, let me say that.
A lot of these dynamics--worrying a lot about the emotions of someone else who isn't doing equal worrying back, for example, or reflexive overapologization--these are dynamics you see where there's a real imbalance of social power. And they're dynamics that you see, as divined by radio pointed out upthread, in abusive relationships as well.
posted by sciatrix at 6:53 PM on July 26, 2015 [24 favorites]
And it's made me just run from basically every kind of formal emotional labor that might involve my family. Like, birthday cards, Christmas cards, holiday visits, hospital cards, birthday presents, phone calls, answering my email, commenting on social media--these are all things that I've just stopped doing because it's so exhausting to put up with my mother's commentary (and to a lesser extent my extended family's).
Don't get me wrong, she does a crap ton of emotional labor for my dad and his family and she very clearly felt pressured to have everything perfect while I was growing up. But just, the stress of that and not having a ton of support and, and, oh, fuck--I think she displaced some of that onto me when I was a kid, and it's a recipe for... not good mother/daughter relationships, let me say that.
A lot of these dynamics--worrying a lot about the emotions of someone else who isn't doing equal worrying back, for example, or reflexive overapologization--these are dynamics you see where there's a real imbalance of social power. And they're dynamics that you see, as divined by radio pointed out upthread, in abusive relationships as well.
posted by sciatrix at 6:53 PM on July 26, 2015 [24 favorites]
Or maybe just from people who have been conditioned to do it in abusive relationships, and now do it with everyone.
posted by HotToddy at 7:02 PM on July 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 7:02 PM on July 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just apologised to the pathologists who were trying to take my blood for a blood test because my veins are really difficult. Obviously, this is something under my control and I should have done better making my veins open and available to anyone who wants to stick a needle in them.
On the women carrying their partner's stuff for them, I agree that it is not on. I had a male partner who did this - it was especially irritating when he'd buy something, refuse the bag he was offered and then ask me if he could put it in mine. On the flip side, I make a point of searching out pants that have pockets and that takes care of keys, phone and work pass. My wallet, on the other hand, doesn't really fit so if I am going out just to catch up for brunch or something, I will frequently just carry it. I can't be bothered taking a bag just for that. One of my female exes used to irritably tell me to give it to her, she'd put it in her bag. I wonder now if it was a hangover from previous relationships she'd been in.
A lot of these dynamics--worrying a lot about the emotions of someone else who isn't doing equal worrying back, for example, or reflexive overapologization--these are dynamics you see where there's a real imbalance of social power. And they're dynamics that you see, as divined by radio pointed out upthread, in abusive relationships as well.
Quoted for truth. I was so well-conditioned by my 13-year (non-abusive) relationship with a guy who loved being Mr Fixit and spent so much time pathologising any problem I had, whether it was with the other women he was sleeping with or the fact that he did no housework apart from ironing his shirts that I went straight into a relationship with a woman who picked me apart, made all the problems because of something that was wrong with me, never mind her mostly untreated depression, PTSD, possible history of sexual abuse, fucked-up family dynamics, and her habit of self-medicating with shittons of alcohol and marijuana to the point of paranoid delusions. AND I BELIEVED THEM BOTH. Of course it was my fault, I was broken, everything that was a problem was because of me, I wasn't working hard enough or trying hard enough, I was the shitstain making everything worse. I am right now seriously still struggling with some recently-diagnosed health issues and trying so hard not to think that I deserve to have gotten them, that it is my own fault for not looking after myself better and... lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseam.
BTW, anyone else wrestling with the whole people telling you you're the problem, not them - I found this song helped enormously when I was coming to understand it wasn't the truth.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:06 PM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
On the women carrying their partner's stuff for them, I agree that it is not on. I had a male partner who did this - it was especially irritating when he'd buy something, refuse the bag he was offered and then ask me if he could put it in mine. On the flip side, I make a point of searching out pants that have pockets and that takes care of keys, phone and work pass. My wallet, on the other hand, doesn't really fit so if I am going out just to catch up for brunch or something, I will frequently just carry it. I can't be bothered taking a bag just for that. One of my female exes used to irritably tell me to give it to her, she'd put it in her bag. I wonder now if it was a hangover from previous relationships she'd been in.
A lot of these dynamics--worrying a lot about the emotions of someone else who isn't doing equal worrying back, for example, or reflexive overapologization--these are dynamics you see where there's a real imbalance of social power. And they're dynamics that you see, as divined by radio pointed out upthread, in abusive relationships as well.
Quoted for truth. I was so well-conditioned by my 13-year (non-abusive) relationship with a guy who loved being Mr Fixit and spent so much time pathologising any problem I had, whether it was with the other women he was sleeping with or the fact that he did no housework apart from ironing his shirts that I went straight into a relationship with a woman who picked me apart, made all the problems because of something that was wrong with me, never mind her mostly untreated depression, PTSD, possible history of sexual abuse, fucked-up family dynamics, and her habit of self-medicating with shittons of alcohol and marijuana to the point of paranoid delusions. AND I BELIEVED THEM BOTH. Of course it was my fault, I was broken, everything that was a problem was because of me, I wasn't working hard enough or trying hard enough, I was the shitstain making everything worse. I am right now seriously still struggling with some recently-diagnosed health issues and trying so hard not to think that I deserve to have gotten them, that it is my own fault for not looking after myself better and... lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseam.
BTW, anyone else wrestling with the whole people telling you you're the problem, not them - I found this song helped enormously when I was coming to understand it wasn't the truth.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:06 PM on July 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
And and and, the hypervigilant monitoring of other people's emotions, picking up on the tiny subtle signs of a storm brewing . . . skills I learned as a kid that I've used all my life. I see the storm coming before they do.
posted by HotToddy at 7:06 PM on July 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 7:06 PM on July 26, 2015 [19 favorites]
There's been lots of talk about men not cleaning, not noticing the house, etc. Sounds like a recipe for the classic Bachelor's Apartment to me.
cue Rita Rudner "When I met my husband, he was living in an apartment with nothing on the walls..."
"...except for some food."
posted by Ambient Echo at 7:17 PM on July 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
cue Rita Rudner "When I met my husband, he was living in an apartment with nothing on the walls..."
"...except for some food."
posted by Ambient Echo at 7:17 PM on July 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
And and and, the hypervigilant monitoring of other people's emotions, picking up on the tiny subtle signs of a storm brewing . . . skills I learned as a kid that I've used all my life. I see the storm coming before they do.
Yes. Emotional labour includes working out other people's emotional responses in order to alleviate the impact.
posted by Thella at 7:20 PM on July 26, 2015 [16 favorites]
Yes. Emotional labour includes working out other people's emotional responses in order to alleviate the impact.
posted by Thella at 7:20 PM on July 26, 2015 [16 favorites]
The thing I keep struggling with, and keep circling back to because of the friend referred to in this comment, is how the hell it works when you're both broken, when you're both struggling with the way your body dumps a bunch of chemicals into your brain and the memories are like a wave dumping you under except the world is dry. When one of you needs caretaking, but the other is so burnt out by it, what can you do?
Like, when my brother-in-law kept just leaving his kid or kids with me while he 'worked from home' which, as it turned out, was sleeping for most of the day, even though I was leaving work early to pick our kids up he just kept doing it. When my partner finally said 'wtf?' he replied that 'oh I'm sick, maybe depressed' and that was offered up to me on a platter. Meanwhile I've done the school run with a migraine making my eyes and nose run constantly, I worked on my PhD FT through a PTSD resurgence while being primary carer, my therapist is currently worried about me burning out, but hey a MAN needs SLEEP and how DARE I ignore his confession of vulnerability?
And that's what I'm carrying on my back. Not just this kind of stupidity, the way that I'm portrayed like some terrible bitch because I expect my husband to actively look after our kid, to do housework, to put the game down and do something. The way that I'm still blamed for being raped. Blamed for not being better by now (by the same asshole who tells me to work through the night instead of expecting help, who thinks his naps are worth more than my work). Then it just keeps happening - maybe if I was nicer, maybe if I asked more, asked better, asked over and over.
And so by the time I get to this, where someone I genuinely love and care for is struggling, I am too and I don't even know where a normal boundary is. I mentioned this thing my partner did - that thing from way above where he finally said to his family that we want a christmas by ourselves and copped so much flack for it - my therapist just blinked and said "you know that is just normal, right?". My boundaries, my ability to see normal, is weathered to stone, and this thread doesn't really open out of options, because it is speaking from under the water mostly. We're all still drowning in it, trying to work out where the surface is, and then where the shore is, and then if we even wanna swim there because hey, Crone Island is just over there, right?
I don't want crone island, I don't want a new world. I want a new normal, here, in this world.
On an old board, in an old thread, one of the other survivors said "days like this I'm an open wound and the world is filled with salt". Fitting because my friend is surely wounded and my god, I'm so fucking salty about everything right now.
posted by geek anachronism at 8:23 PM on July 26, 2015 [48 favorites]
Like, when my brother-in-law kept just leaving his kid or kids with me while he 'worked from home' which, as it turned out, was sleeping for most of the day, even though I was leaving work early to pick our kids up he just kept doing it. When my partner finally said 'wtf?' he replied that 'oh I'm sick, maybe depressed' and that was offered up to me on a platter. Meanwhile I've done the school run with a migraine making my eyes and nose run constantly, I worked on my PhD FT through a PTSD resurgence while being primary carer, my therapist is currently worried about me burning out, but hey a MAN needs SLEEP and how DARE I ignore his confession of vulnerability?
And that's what I'm carrying on my back. Not just this kind of stupidity, the way that I'm portrayed like some terrible bitch because I expect my husband to actively look after our kid, to do housework, to put the game down and do something. The way that I'm still blamed for being raped. Blamed for not being better by now (by the same asshole who tells me to work through the night instead of expecting help, who thinks his naps are worth more than my work). Then it just keeps happening - maybe if I was nicer, maybe if I asked more, asked better, asked over and over.
And so by the time I get to this, where someone I genuinely love and care for is struggling, I am too and I don't even know where a normal boundary is. I mentioned this thing my partner did - that thing from way above where he finally said to his family that we want a christmas by ourselves and copped so much flack for it - my therapist just blinked and said "you know that is just normal, right?". My boundaries, my ability to see normal, is weathered to stone, and this thread doesn't really open out of options, because it is speaking from under the water mostly. We're all still drowning in it, trying to work out where the surface is, and then where the shore is, and then if we even wanna swim there because hey, Crone Island is just over there, right?
I don't want crone island, I don't want a new world. I want a new normal, here, in this world.
On an old board, in an old thread, one of the other survivors said "days like this I'm an open wound and the world is filled with salt". Fitting because my friend is surely wounded and my god, I'm so fucking salty about everything right now.
posted by geek anachronism at 8:23 PM on July 26, 2015 [48 favorites]
I don't know if I even got to my point there, but there's this big stupid component of emotional labour where not only do you have to fix the original thing, get over the pain, but you're never supposed to refer back to it either and it just...
it's this big katamari damacy ball of shit.
Every time it happens again and you think of the time it happened before you're supposed to shove that down and treat it all like it's a new day. And every time you do it there's just another layer the next time as well. And again. And again. And it's rolling all over everything else too.
posted by geek anachronism at 8:33 PM on July 26, 2015 [18 favorites]
it's this big katamari damacy ball of shit.
Every time it happens again and you think of the time it happened before you're supposed to shove that down and treat it all like it's a new day. And every time you do it there's just another layer the next time as well. And again. And again. And it's rolling all over everything else too.
posted by geek anachronism at 8:33 PM on July 26, 2015 [18 favorites]
Another puzzle piece: was thinking about religious life. Convents, monasteries. We think of these things as big sacrifices, but in fact, they are places designed to dial the emotional labor burden way, way down. You are removed from regular family and social life. You don't have to stress about the cleanliness and conditon and chores around the places, because all of these things are taken care of in a fair and equitable rotation of tasks - when it's your turn to do the dishes, you do the dishes, but on the other days, you blissfully ignore the dishes. Life is so regulated and organized that you really can be mentally and emotionally free to concentrate on the tasks you are there to do - whether it's contemplation, human services, or whatever. This wasn't a stupid organization of life. Religious orders recognized that emotional labor had to be wrestled to the ground before anyone stood 5 minutes' chance of being able to devote attention to anything else.
I also think this is what drew me to life in summer camps and residential education settings for many years: a similar level of organization of chores, and an equitable sharing. Men and women alike did their duties when it was their turn, and were penalized for shirking. Both the emotional and the menial labor were sorted - labor was never a negotiation; you never had a long-running standoff as to who was going to take out trash or scrub the pots: it was all written there right on a rotation chart. This did more to create gender equality than any number of manifestos or heartfelt discussions. A basic rota. A recognition that everyone needed to contribute equally to the boring work of daily life. The beauty of it: when you're on, you're on: you do the work outlined in the rota. When you're off, you devote not a second's thought to the condition of the kitchen or the bathrooms or the trash. It's a big old SEP until it's your turn in the rota again.
posted by Miko at 9:19 PM on July 26, 2015 [87 favorites]
I also think this is what drew me to life in summer camps and residential education settings for many years: a similar level of organization of chores, and an equitable sharing. Men and women alike did their duties when it was their turn, and were penalized for shirking. Both the emotional and the menial labor were sorted - labor was never a negotiation; you never had a long-running standoff as to who was going to take out trash or scrub the pots: it was all written there right on a rotation chart. This did more to create gender equality than any number of manifestos or heartfelt discussions. A basic rota. A recognition that everyone needed to contribute equally to the boring work of daily life. The beauty of it: when you're on, you're on: you do the work outlined in the rota. When you're off, you devote not a second's thought to the condition of the kitchen or the bathrooms or the trash. It's a big old SEP until it's your turn in the rota again.
posted by Miko at 9:19 PM on July 26, 2015 [87 favorites]
Oh God Is Something Happening That Has To Do With Dogs Please Can We Do Something Oh God Please Do Something Interesting.
This is my every day. Even if I am just headed for the loo, the Hounds get all bouncy and excited and follow me everywhere. Which is hard enough when it's just The Hounds and me, but we do OK as long as I sit on the sofa to work, so they can snuggle me while I talk my customers through their tech problems.
It's so much harder when the husband is home, though. Instead of tending to them so I can work more efficiently, he just...sits. The pibble is especially clingy, but he will ignore her cries to be let back in after a pee, because he just figures I can do it between calls. Then he complains that the dogs like me best!
Well, of COURSE they do! I feed them, soothe them, and let them assist with tech support work, he lets them get wound up and upset and it never occurs to him to put down the fucking iPad and pay attention to them. /dogmom
posted by MissySedai at 9:51 PM on July 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
This is my every day. Even if I am just headed for the loo, the Hounds get all bouncy and excited and follow me everywhere. Which is hard enough when it's just The Hounds and me, but we do OK as long as I sit on the sofa to work, so they can snuggle me while I talk my customers through their tech problems.
It's so much harder when the husband is home, though. Instead of tending to them so I can work more efficiently, he just...sits. The pibble is especially clingy, but he will ignore her cries to be let back in after a pee, because he just figures I can do it between calls. Then he complains that the dogs like me best!
Well, of COURSE they do! I feed them, soothe them, and let them assist with tech support work, he lets them get wound up and upset and it never occurs to him to put down the fucking iPad and pay attention to them. /dogmom
posted by MissySedai at 9:51 PM on July 26, 2015 [15 favorites]
Miko: was thinking about religious life. Convents, monasteries. We think of these things as big sacrifices, but in fact, they are places designed to dial the emotional labor burden way, way down.
I really appreciate this link you made between monastic life and reduction of emotional labour. You have just helped me better understand one of my own motives for starting a Pagan hermitage, after many years of thinking about it. In fact, this is so important to me that I'm going to revise my writings about the project to incorporate this new-found conscious awareness. Thank you so much!
posted by velvet winter at 10:17 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
I really appreciate this link you made between monastic life and reduction of emotional labour. You have just helped me better understand one of my own motives for starting a Pagan hermitage, after many years of thinking about it. In fact, this is so important to me that I'm going to revise my writings about the project to incorporate this new-found conscious awareness. Thank you so much!
posted by velvet winter at 10:17 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
every week he would get flowers and I would react with something less than unbridled joy and he would get all mopey until I coaxed him out of it.
I would like to know what happened after a few days, when the flowers were wilted and turning brown, when the vase water started to get slimy.
(That's one of my issues with flowers when I'm feeling stretched -- so, here's this thing I will need to clean up in a few days.)
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:22 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
I would like to know what happened after a few days, when the flowers were wilted and turning brown, when the vase water started to get slimy.
(That's one of my issues with flowers when I'm feeling stretched -- so, here's this thing I will need to clean up in a few days.)
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:22 PM on July 26, 2015 [13 favorites]
I would like to know what happened after a few days, when the flowers were wilted and turning brown, when the vase water started to get slimy.
I think that's the point in the script where he says you never take care of things and why don't you take care of the flowers he gave you? Er, maybe that's the line from a different story. Heh.
posted by limeonaire at 10:48 PM on July 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think that's the point in the script where he says you never take care of things and why don't you take care of the flowers he gave you? Er, maybe that's the line from a different story. Heh.
posted by limeonaire at 10:48 PM on July 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
And and and, the hypervigilant monitoring of other people's emotions, picking up on the tiny subtle signs of a storm brewing . . . skills I learned as a kid that I've used all my life. I see the storm coming before they do.
Yes. Emotional labour includes working out other people's emotional responses in order to alleviate the impact.
This is part of why I get so damn anxious about every little thing!
I grew up with two highly volatile family members and you could not see the storm coming. As an adult I still half-expect previously calm people to fly into wild rages because I disagree or ask them to do something slightly awkward.
Then I get anxious and depressed. Because I am doing all that emotional labour trying to make myself as small and unobtrusive as possible, and monitor everyone for warning signs, even though it's not my responsibility, and NEVER WAS.
Wow. I think this has come into focus for me very sharply. Thanks.
posted by NoiselessPenguin at 10:55 PM on July 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
Yes. Emotional labour includes working out other people's emotional responses in order to alleviate the impact.
This is part of why I get so damn anxious about every little thing!
I grew up with two highly volatile family members and you could not see the storm coming. As an adult I still half-expect previously calm people to fly into wild rages because I disagree or ask them to do something slightly awkward.
Then I get anxious and depressed. Because I am doing all that emotional labour trying to make myself as small and unobtrusive as possible, and monitor everyone for warning signs, even though it's not my responsibility, and NEVER WAS.
Wow. I think this has come into focus for me very sharply. Thanks.
posted by NoiselessPenguin at 10:55 PM on July 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
MEN ASKING YOU TO CARRY SHIT. I have told my boyfriend how much I love that he has his own bag, sometimes bigger than mine, and never ever asks me to carry his shit for him, but the metaphorical weight of that didn't occur to me until this thread. I just mentioned it to my other guy tonight, because of the discussion here, and he was also like "guys do that? But our pockets are so much bigger." Thank heaven for men who carry their own weight. I think this might be my litmus test going forward -- "do you arrange to have the capacity to carry everything you need, or do you expect to have unfettered access to my space and my strength and my oversight?"
posted by babelfish at 11:02 PM on July 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 11:02 PM on July 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
I just apologised to the pathologists who were trying to take my blood for a blood test because my veins are really difficult. Obviously, this is something under my control and I should have done better making my veins open and available to anyone who wants to stick a needle in them.
Hah. I apologize for everything. I apologize that I exist, frequently. I am really, really sorry that I exist, you guys. Everything somehow ends up being my fault, even if in order to know that I would have had to be a mind reader, even if I am 100% lily white innocent and it can actually be proven as such. My lily white innocence doesn't fucking matter, because I end up being guilty anyway just because I'm here and thus I'm responsible for whatever you don't like. I get blamed or end up feeling guilty for everything anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:24 PM on July 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
Hah. I apologize for everything. I apologize that I exist, frequently. I am really, really sorry that I exist, you guys. Everything somehow ends up being my fault, even if in order to know that I would have had to be a mind reader, even if I am 100% lily white innocent and it can actually be proven as such. My lily white innocence doesn't fucking matter, because I end up being guilty anyway just because I'm here and thus I'm responsible for whatever you don't like. I get blamed or end up feeling guilty for everything anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:24 PM on July 26, 2015 [14 favorites]
I would like to know what happened after a few days, when the flowers were wilted and turning brown, when the vase water started to get slimy.
*bitter laugh* You know, I wish I had done that. But by that point I was so beaten down that the thought of his mother (who is generally great) coming over and seeing those wilted flowers and tutting disappointingly was all it took for me to give up and tend to the damn things.
Ugh. What an emotional vampire he was (but was often such a "great," "charming" guy!). Never again.
posted by nicodine at 11:35 PM on July 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
*bitter laugh* You know, I wish I had done that. But by that point I was so beaten down that the thought of his mother (who is generally great) coming over and seeing those wilted flowers and tutting disappointingly was all it took for me to give up and tend to the damn things.
Ugh. What an emotional vampire he was (but was often such a "great," "charming" guy!). Never again.
posted by nicodine at 11:35 PM on July 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe I am just really bad at communication, or having arguments.
Or it's how your SO keeps you on the defensive, and now you have to sort through and help fix *their* feelings. AGAIN.
Another story: I live in a small, 3 bedroom house. When my ex-fiance (the lilac pruner) moved in, we brought his stuff into the first floor family room, with an *unspoken* understanding that his stuff and dozens of boxes would be moved and unpacked. Right? That's just what you do when you move. You pack, move, then UNPACK. Or so I thought.
So he'd been living with me and Thing 3 for about a month (31 days. DAYS.) and the stacked boxes taking up 1/3 of the family room were still there. We had to create alternate routes to use the room, serpentining through stacks of his crap. When he needed to find something, he'd start tearing through boxes, searching and searching and then throw everything back INTO the boxes.
I said nothing for the first few weeks, because I was trying to be cool and thinking of protecting his special feelings and not wanting to seem like a shrew but obviously, inwardly seething, "Do you not see the mountains of SHIT you've got cluttering the whole house? Can you DO SOMETHING?"
4 weeks later, I *delicately* approached him in the morning, backpedaling the whole time, "Oh hey, I'm so glad you're here and BLAH BLAH BLAH and please let me know HOW I CAN HELP you unpack."
And he jumps out of bed, starts slamming doors and doesn't talk to me for the entire DAY. And I spent the entire day thinking that JESUS FUCK he was kind of an asshole and maybe moving in was a really bad idea.
Later that night, jammed in between all the boxes, I'm trying to get him to talk to or even acknowledge me and the only thing he said was, "You can't ambush me first thing in the morning like that. You have to let me wake up. You need to ask me nicely. I'm not going to do anything for someone who yells at me (he was yelling this the entire time). You just attack and attack and attack and you need to work on YOUR communication skills because I WON'T BE YELLED AT LIKE THAT."
So, yeah. Being told that my communication skills are lacking because I want them to do (a perfectly obvious THING). Ugh.
posted by kinetic at 5:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [64 favorites]
Or it's how your SO keeps you on the defensive, and now you have to sort through and help fix *their* feelings. AGAIN.
Another story: I live in a small, 3 bedroom house. When my ex-fiance (the lilac pruner) moved in, we brought his stuff into the first floor family room, with an *unspoken* understanding that his stuff and dozens of boxes would be moved and unpacked. Right? That's just what you do when you move. You pack, move, then UNPACK. Or so I thought.
So he'd been living with me and Thing 3 for about a month (31 days. DAYS.) and the stacked boxes taking up 1/3 of the family room were still there. We had to create alternate routes to use the room, serpentining through stacks of his crap. When he needed to find something, he'd start tearing through boxes, searching and searching and then throw everything back INTO the boxes.
I said nothing for the first few weeks, because I was trying to be cool and thinking of protecting his special feelings and not wanting to seem like a shrew but obviously, inwardly seething, "Do you not see the mountains of SHIT you've got cluttering the whole house? Can you DO SOMETHING?"
4 weeks later, I *delicately* approached him in the morning, backpedaling the whole time, "Oh hey, I'm so glad you're here and BLAH BLAH BLAH and please let me know HOW I CAN HELP you unpack."
And he jumps out of bed, starts slamming doors and doesn't talk to me for the entire DAY. And I spent the entire day thinking that JESUS FUCK he was kind of an asshole and maybe moving in was a really bad idea.
Later that night, jammed in between all the boxes, I'm trying to get him to talk to or even acknowledge me and the only thing he said was, "You can't ambush me first thing in the morning like that. You have to let me wake up. You need to ask me nicely. I'm not going to do anything for someone who yells at me (he was yelling this the entire time). You just attack and attack and attack and you need to work on YOUR communication skills because I WON'T BE YELLED AT LIKE THAT."
So, yeah. Being told that my communication skills are lacking because I want them to do (a perfectly obvious THING). Ugh.
posted by kinetic at 5:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [64 favorites]
Hey winter sweet, that is great you are still moving forward with your retreat/hermitage idea! Keep going forward in little steps. Because at least one of my children has expressed interest in the same idea I have been moving forward with making it possible for them - and we last month we purchased the property surrounded by conservation lands for them to start on. In the thick of all the hard work I didn't think it was *ever* going to pay off, but it did and now we see the light at the end of the tunnel.
posted by saucysault at 6:09 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 6:09 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Did you guys know that there is not just a cleaning fairy but also a money fairy?
When I was young I married a "great guy" who was adored by all of his friends and co-workers. We both worked in the the restaurant business so we were pretty poor even though we both put in long hours. There was a time when I only had one pair of shoes for a year because I could not bring myself to spend money on myself. Yet there was always money for beer, cigarettes, and golf-- none of which I indulged in. Cigarettes because...duh...he couldn't possibly be expected to quit. Beer because that was his "one" great pleasure in life. Golf because he needed to get out of the house on Sunday and DO something. Also his friends and boss liked to play.
I was so stupid. I never tried to argue with him about this. I never thought that since I was working I deserved a lipstick or a professional hair cut or a new pair of shoes, I just felt that since he was spending money that we could not afford then I should cut back on any unnecessary expenses. And even a few necessary expenses. I did it without being asked to or consulting him. I was trained that every week there had to be money for beer, cigarettes, and golf.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:44 AM on July 27, 2015 [35 favorites]
When I was young I married a "great guy" who was adored by all of his friends and co-workers. We both worked in the the restaurant business so we were pretty poor even though we both put in long hours. There was a time when I only had one pair of shoes for a year because I could not bring myself to spend money on myself. Yet there was always money for beer, cigarettes, and golf-- none of which I indulged in. Cigarettes because...duh...he couldn't possibly be expected to quit. Beer because that was his "one" great pleasure in life. Golf because he needed to get out of the house on Sunday and DO something. Also his friends and boss liked to play.
I was so stupid. I never tried to argue with him about this. I never thought that since I was working I deserved a lipstick or a professional hair cut or a new pair of shoes, I just felt that since he was spending money that we could not afford then I should cut back on any unnecessary expenses. And even a few necessary expenses. I did it without being asked to or consulting him. I was trained that every week there had to be money for beer, cigarettes, and golf.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:44 AM on July 27, 2015 [35 favorites]
> I just apologised to the pathologists who were trying to take my blood for a blood test because my veins are really difficult. Obviously, this is something under my control and I should have done better making my veins open and available to anyone who wants to stick a needle in them.
Eh, I would probably say "I'm sorry" in this situation as well, but I'm not accepting responsibility for my vein configuration, I'm just expressing good-natured sympathy to the tech. The difference is whether you actually feel bad about your veins or not, I suppose.
(Please don't taking this as nitpicking your example, but I see a lot of women worrying so much about being apologetic that they hyper-analyse their own words in a sort of anxiety loop of self-inflicted emotional labor. )
posted by desuetude at 6:51 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Eh, I would probably say "I'm sorry" in this situation as well, but I'm not accepting responsibility for my vein configuration, I'm just expressing good-natured sympathy to the tech. The difference is whether you actually feel bad about your veins or not, I suppose.
(Please don't taking this as nitpicking your example, but I see a lot of women worrying so much about being apologetic that they hyper-analyse their own words in a sort of anxiety loop of self-inflicted emotional labor. )
posted by desuetude at 6:51 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
The fact that in English, the phrase for "I am apologizing for a thing I did" and "I am sympathetic to your plight and expressing empathy" are the same can lead to some weird conflation of apology vs empathy. In places where the native language doesn't do that, is there the same cultural thing of women apologizing for everything the same way many English-speakers do?
posted by rmd1023 at 7:24 AM on July 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 7:24 AM on July 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
"I was so stupid. I never tried" "cultural thing of women apologizing for everything"
I somehow want to stop beating up on myself for things, stop apologizing for things AND stop beating up on myself for having beat up on myself, stop apologizing for having apologized for things. In short, I am learning new awesome things now. It would have been cool to have learned the things earlier but fuck it I didn't and it is not my fault, not only that, I deserve nothing but ice cream and oral sex from here until a distant time in the far future visible only to me. NOTHING IS MY FAULT, NOTHING WAS MY FAULT. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTHING, I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTHING, I WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTHING. For the foreseeable. Obviously this is not a long-term sustainable lifeway, but the world has a lot to make up for, and I'm going to let it spend a good while making up for it all before I pick up one more fucking load.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:33 AM on July 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I somehow want to stop beating up on myself for things, stop apologizing for things AND stop beating up on myself for having beat up on myself, stop apologizing for having apologized for things. In short, I am learning new awesome things now. It would have been cool to have learned the things earlier but fuck it I didn't and it is not my fault, not only that, I deserve nothing but ice cream and oral sex from here until a distant time in the far future visible only to me. NOTHING IS MY FAULT, NOTHING WAS MY FAULT. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTHING, I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTHING, I WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTHING. For the foreseeable. Obviously this is not a long-term sustainable lifeway, but the world has a lot to make up for, and I'm going to let it spend a good while making up for it all before I pick up one more fucking load.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:33 AM on July 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I apologize for my bad veins whenever I have blood drawn. I mean it sincerely. I feel guilty that my veins are hard to get to and take up the phlebotmist's time. I feel guilty that I don't do blood drives anymore because it is so much work for them to get blood out of me and they could process four other people in the same time. I feel guilty that I'm fat - I don't even know if that's why my veins are hard to access, but it seems like it might be, so there's just one more fat-related thing to feel guilty about. Last time, I felt guilty that I hadn't anticipated the need to have blood drawn at that checkup so I hadn't hydrated well ahead of time.
Then I feel badly about apologizing because "sorry" is one of my most commonly used words, and am I letting the sisterhood down? Guilt upon guilt upon guilt, usually after I've just finished feeling guilty due to a doctor lecture about my weight or my mental health. It's good times here in my head.
posted by Stacey at 8:10 AM on July 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Then I feel badly about apologizing because "sorry" is one of my most commonly used words, and am I letting the sisterhood down? Guilt upon guilt upon guilt, usually after I've just finished feeling guilty due to a doctor lecture about my weight or my mental health. It's good times here in my head.
posted by Stacey at 8:10 AM on July 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
I never thought that since I was working I deserved a lipstick or a professional hair cut or a new pair of shoes, I just felt that since he was spending money that we could not afford then I should cut back on any unnecessary expenses. And even a few necessary expenses. I did it without being asked to or consulting him. I was trained that every week there had to be money for beer, cigarettes, and golf.
This was my ex and music. Once we went to the record store (CDs by then, but still) and we had an agreement we could buy six CDs (three each). I wasn't feeling it and also was feeling broke, so I declined to buy my three. Win! He picked out three more and bought them. We were always too broke for various things but rarely for the "buy 12, get 1 free" special from the Green Linnet catalog. In the waning days of our marriage, he bought a $4000 computer that I never got to use without consulting me and bitched me out when, a couple of weeks later, I took a lunchtime trip to the music store from my office and bought 3 CDs for about $40. The last item was one of the cautionary tales I told subsequent dates as a test drive. If they were appropriately horrified, they met a minimum standard for staying in the game.
posted by immlass at 8:14 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
This was my ex and music. Once we went to the record store (CDs by then, but still) and we had an agreement we could buy six CDs (three each). I wasn't feeling it and also was feeling broke, so I declined to buy my three. Win! He picked out three more and bought them. We were always too broke for various things but rarely for the "buy 12, get 1 free" special from the Green Linnet catalog. In the waning days of our marriage, he bought a $4000 computer that I never got to use without consulting me and bitched me out when, a couple of weeks later, I took a lunchtime trip to the music store from my office and bought 3 CDs for about $40. The last item was one of the cautionary tales I told subsequent dates as a test drive. If they were appropriately horrified, they met a minimum standard for staying in the game.
posted by immlass at 8:14 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
Because I tend to apologize for everything, it's very difficult for me to sort out situations where I do need to apologize/feel bad and then apologize/feel bad appropriately. My default setting is "I did this and I am a bad person and it's my fault and there are NO mitigating circumstances and no matter how much you may have misunderstood something it's still my fault and I am a bad person", so my apologize all tend to be "oh my god, I am so sorry that I did this terrible thing and here is how I know it was bad and I will never ever do it again, I am so sorry that I made you feel pain and frustration"...a style that is perfectly appropriate for significant transgressions but a little bit of overkill when you accidentally make a minor mistake about which the person/people are not actually especially upset.
And then I worry about the quality of my apology...was it sincere enough? Did I unintentionally make it too much about me? What if the person was upset at having to relive whatever I did wrong and therefore my apology caused them more pain?
Again, this is all total overkill for having been a little bit grumpy with someone at work during year end closing, or having forgotten to fill out part of a form after being reminded or something - stuff for which a "hey, I'm sorry I did that, I'll be more careful next time" is really all that's needed.
posted by Frowner at 8:32 AM on July 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
And then I worry about the quality of my apology...was it sincere enough? Did I unintentionally make it too much about me? What if the person was upset at having to relive whatever I did wrong and therefore my apology caused them more pain?
Again, this is all total overkill for having been a little bit grumpy with someone at work during year end closing, or having forgotten to fill out part of a form after being reminded or something - stuff for which a "hey, I'm sorry I did that, I'll be more careful next time" is really all that's needed.
posted by Frowner at 8:32 AM on July 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
Did you guys know that there is not just a cleaning fairy but also a money fairy?
I know the Money Fairy; she's related to the Convenience Fairy! Because you can ALWAYS find money to relieve you from performing onerous tasks you expect your partner to perform for nothing!
When I'd be exhausted after working all day then coming home and wrangling the 3 kids and I'd ask my non-employed ex to please make dinner, he consulted the Money Fairy and ordered pizza (not make pasta or eggs...nah). And not just cheap pizza from the Greek place down the street (this is Boston), he'd get $$$ Bertucci's pizza because the Money Fairy had no problem giving him $60 for take out.
The Money Fairy also bought him new tennis racquets and CDs and top of the line stereo equipment and cell phones and plasma tvs and a brand new BMW.
Although to be fair, the Money Fairy once convinced me to shell out extra $ for LL Bean backpacks for the kids because of their lifetime warrantee.*
*Wait. That's the Frugal Fairy.
posted by kinetic at 8:36 AM on July 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
I know the Money Fairy; she's related to the Convenience Fairy! Because you can ALWAYS find money to relieve you from performing onerous tasks you expect your partner to perform for nothing!
When I'd be exhausted after working all day then coming home and wrangling the 3 kids and I'd ask my non-employed ex to please make dinner, he consulted the Money Fairy and ordered pizza (not make pasta or eggs...nah). And not just cheap pizza from the Greek place down the street (this is Boston), he'd get $$$ Bertucci's pizza because the Money Fairy had no problem giving him $60 for take out.
The Money Fairy also bought him new tennis racquets and CDs and top of the line stereo equipment and cell phones and plasma tvs and a brand new BMW.
Although to be fair, the Money Fairy once convinced me to shell out extra $ for LL Bean backpacks for the kids because of their lifetime warrantee.*
*Wait. That's the Frugal Fairy.
posted by kinetic at 8:36 AM on July 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
Not gonna lie: I'm now really tempted to write a story about all these fairies (Cleaning, Money, Convenience, Frugal... am I missing any?) sitting around talking about their days.
posted by lriG rorriM at 8:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by lriG rorriM at 8:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
My first serious boyfriend was the person that got me out of saying sorry and feeling for everything. I was 18ish and until he brought it up I had absolutely no clue it was a thing. Then of course I was sorry it was a thing.
At first it was super annoying when he would asked if I was actually sorry whenever I said it mostly because it soon became clear that it was just habit and this weird socialization thing happening. I don't recall either of us having any sort of super analysis of why and how only that it was regularly occurring and wasn't right because no I really wasn't sorry that I had an opinion that the dinner we had just eaten wasn't that great. And no I wasn't really sorry that I wanted to go to a movie instead of hanging out at home.
I had forgotten about how insidious and how ridiculous it was. Looking back his 'are you really sorry?' question that helped break that way of thinking and communicating is one of the best things I got from that relationship. So belated thank 'are you really sorry' dude. Don't think either of realized the extent we were hammering at the patriarchy at the time so yay, young us and yay young me.
posted by Jalliah at 8:53 AM on July 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
At first it was super annoying when he would asked if I was actually sorry whenever I said it mostly because it soon became clear that it was just habit and this weird socialization thing happening. I don't recall either of us having any sort of super analysis of why and how only that it was regularly occurring and wasn't right because no I really wasn't sorry that I had an opinion that the dinner we had just eaten wasn't that great. And no I wasn't really sorry that I wanted to go to a movie instead of hanging out at home.
I had forgotten about how insidious and how ridiculous it was. Looking back his 'are you really sorry?' question that helped break that way of thinking and communicating is one of the best things I got from that relationship. So belated thank 'are you really sorry' dude. Don't think either of realized the extent we were hammering at the patriarchy at the time so yay, young us and yay young me.
posted by Jalliah at 8:53 AM on July 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
Mod note: This is a comment from an anonymous mefite.
A few weeks ago - pursuant to the current police nightmare currently playing out in the US, a friend sent me this article.posted by cortex (staff) at 9:08 AM on July 27, 2015 [88 favorites]
And a completely unexpected lightbulb went off in my head.
Back in January of this year, I agreed - because his usual movie-watching friends were out of town - to watch a couple of action movies from a certain popular franchise with my SO. I was reluctant and he acknowledged that the films were… problematic in some respects, but - CARS. My SO loves CARS, and I love him, and I didn't want to be some humorless party pooper, so what the hell, why not?
(Damn. Female social conditioning shows up EVERYWHERE.)
Those movies made me so flipping mad - madder than I'd expected, and brought to a head a lot of things that, in the wake of gamergate and the Hugo debacle and a whole lot of other Life Stuff had been making me pretty damn mad, and the very next day, everything spilled over and I wrote a Letter. It started out as "On the Privilege of Looking Straight Past Crap that isn't About YOU" and the next thing I knew I'd written 5000 words. About a whole raft of things that all tied together into serious social bullshit. I didn't want to be dinged as an over-emotional lady-person, so I cited, and referenced, and fact-checked, I spell-checked - hell, I think I even linked to James Tiptree Jr in there somewhere. And to be very VERY sure, I pointedly and repeatedly distinguished The Individual from The Cultural Pressure, and then I mailed it to my SO, and I mailed it to a few other people, and I mailed it to my father. Because he's been following the Life Stuff, and while he and my mother have a pretty traditional gender-breakdown in their marriage (as per people raised in small-town 1960s), he's been a good advocate and ally for his daughters and nieces.
And then, three hours later, I felt like I'd been punched in the belly. My father had written me back - not called, but written - in short, terse, totally unexpected terms: What did you expect? If you feel bad after watching it, no-one made you watch it but yourself. Besides, censorship is bad. Not just in movies. Why are you advocating for cultural censorship? Intellectual hypocrisy doesn't make your argument look too good, does it?
And then - the bit that's really relevant to this thread, he turned my whole 5000 word carefully cited opus into a tone-argument specifically and personally crafted as an insult to HIM. How viciously ANGRY my words were - and thereby, how directly, deliberately grossly personal those words were. What a colossal INSULT that was to him.
I ran the original letter passed the other recipients - male and female. They were as bemused as I was, but it was a female friend who hit it on the head:
"Something in there has hit a nerve. And he's trading on YOUR conditioned reluctance to make him feel bad, and guilting YOU into the problem."
F**k THAT. Speaking in person was obviously out while I was 'angry', so I wrote again, briefly, saying that the letter had been written in good faith and hoped he'd take it as such.
And he wrote back one line: "No. No it wasn't."
And I felt like my whole life of character and good faith had been scraped off my father's shoes on the doormat because he didn't want to hear something that made him feel bad and notallmen.
This story properly enters this thread here: That very same exact month, I happened to be organizing a publicity event for a concern of his - in my free time. He'd asked me to do it. I was getting over a bad illness and was still pretty sick , but I love him, so I said yes and did it. All by myself. I went out and found the perfect venue, and once I'd found it I had meetings with the owners to sort out costs and food and drinks and all hundreds of other things you have to think about when you throw a big event. I wrote guest lists and sent invitations. I made RSVP lists. I wrote press releases, publicity blurbs, sound bites - and then I wrote them again, and then I wrote them again, so that they were perfect. I designed and printed posters and bookmarks and flyer because I BELIEVED in what he was doing, and it was going to be the best event EVER goddamnit. When the letter happened, it was easier to keep going than back out. I didn't have the emotional energy to deal with the fallout. Compartmentalize. So much more ADULT, you know? And on the night of the party, I smiled and circulated and chatted and when I was feeling ill, I went and lay down behind a sofa in a corner behind a sofa where nobody could see, and I'd get up again to talk to the wait-staff or keep the schedule rolling -
And his response to the whole thing? He yelled at me for organizing flowers. I'd arranged for a few bouquets to hide bare patches in the corners of the room, but when I told him about it, it turned out that he didn't WANT flowers at the launch, dammit, and he shouted at me. Several times. I knew he was nervous about the launch, so instead of braining him with a flower vase and saying "Fine. Here are the organizing spreadsheets, have fun." I said nothing and kept on going. I had invested in this event in a huge way myself, you know?
And because I didn't cave on the flowers he sulked and gave me the silent treatment all of the day of the event right up until the guests arrived. Nerves, you know. He didn't even help with the setup. My mother and I did that.
And because the day after the event I happened to get stomach flu from a bad restaurant meal, his take on how the event had gone was a lecture on how, being sick in the first place, I'd brought it on myself by taking on something I couldn't handle, and look what I'd done to both me AND to the people who cared about me. They were so upset and worried! I had absolutely no sense of responsibility. He was disappointed. I must never ever do anything like that again.
At the end of March, he did email me a short thank you. It came on the heels of several weeks of my mother griping to me about his total lack of gratitude, so I'm thinking there was something positive pressure at that end. He's happy to talk about the awesome party NOW, but between the "problem" with the flowers and the massive insult I'd dealt him with my letter, there seems to have been some stuff he needed to work through before he could.
He’ll ask again, of course. And I'll do it, because he's family and that's what one does, right? We keep on trucking. Also because if I offer to brain him with a vase instead, the same mother who was furious about his lack of appreciation will raise seven kinds of hell until I cave. Gratitude isn't the POINT - How did I raise such a SELFISH daughter? He's your FATHER.
Layers and layers and layers all the way down…
And I have been SO ANGRY about all of it. And then I was sent that article, and a lightbulb went off and I went GOD-DAMN. The fact that he'd been so damn GENERIC was insulting. There's privilege for you - so slavishly, laughably, stupidly, brain-deadeningly predictable that my father might have taken that article for an 11-point primer in how to shut a person down. It doesn't matter what the rationale is for who's at the top and who's at the bottom - the same pathetic playbook is going to come out so that the person at the top gets to stay up there without any bad feels.
The playbook requires that you suffer your pain in silence - even unto the extinguishing of your soul. And you must do this of your very own volition.
THAT is what extinguishes the soul.
That is the price of bad feels.
None of this is exactly new news. But seeing it laid out so bald and methodical and matter-of-factly step-by-step, and reading all of these comments about the very specific fears posters have about confronting their partners, and reading the very consistent ways those partners often DO respond, I thought I'd drop it in here. I don't know if knowing that there's a playbook helps or not - but hey - wow. Look at that. Ain't it something?
And ain't it deadening to see that that cost-benefit calculation made in the hearts of the people who cherish you?
Intersectionality is pernicious - a thousand ways of multiplying the power of the determinedly obtuse as well as the willfully cruel.
This thread… So many things written here have said YES, in so many ways, to so many aspects of my life, both large and small - and to the lives of every one of my girlfriends. Soul-death at the hands of a loved one is a terrible, heartbreaking thing to watch. This thread has given me vocabulary for a thing I didn't even know one COULD articulate.
Thank you so much to everyone who has written in this thread. Thank you to all those who have taken this discussion beyond the gender divide and into other necessary intersectional facets of oppression. Thank you to all the men who've stopped by to tell us we're doing it wrong - for giving us pitch-perfect examples to hold up as object lessons and examine and dissect.
And thank you, thank you, to everyone who has come here in good faith and chosen to stay.
she kept apologizing and i could think of was this thread.
Yes! That is a great example of the type of thing I would have said sorry for.
It's raining on the day we planned to drive somewhere. Me "I'm sorry"
It's really hot. "Sorry"
It seems really silly now but boy was it just ingrained in the brain. It wasn't even conscious and I didn't notice at all until it was pointed out.
I had to deprogram myself out of it.
posted by Jalliah at 9:09 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes! That is a great example of the type of thing I would have said sorry for.
It's raining on the day we planned to drive somewhere. Me "I'm sorry"
It's really hot. "Sorry"
It seems really silly now but boy was it just ingrained in the brain. It wasn't even conscious and I didn't notice at all until it was pointed out.
I had to deprogram myself out of it.
posted by Jalliah at 9:09 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
He’ll ask again, of course. And I'll do it, because he's family and that's what one does, right?
I will beg you to say "No". (Unless, since you mentioned intersectionality, it's for a cause that heavily benefits disadvantaged people.)
(And feel free to ignore my advice. Only take it if you find it empowering.)
posted by puddledork at 9:32 AM on July 27, 2015 [25 favorites]
I will beg you to say "No". (Unless, since you mentioned intersectionality, it's for a cause that heavily benefits disadvantaged people.)
(And feel free to ignore my advice. Only take it if you find it empowering.)
posted by puddledork at 9:32 AM on July 27, 2015 [25 favorites]
> "Something in there has hit a nerve. And he's trading on YOUR conditioned reluctance to make him feel bad, and guilting YOU into the problem."
Bingo. This is what men do. (Yes, yes, notallmen, and somewomendoittoo, but come on.) I feel like if we could all recognize this for the self-serving bullshit it is and just collectively get over it, so many other things would change. Good for your friend for putting it so well!
> I will beg you to say "No".
I second that. Good luck dealing with that awful situation, whatever you decide.
posted by languagehat at 9:38 AM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
Bingo. This is what men do. (Yes, yes, notallmen, and somewomendoittoo, but come on.) I feel like if we could all recognize this for the self-serving bullshit it is and just collectively get over it, so many other things would change. Good for your friend for putting it so well!
> I will beg you to say "No".
I second that. Good luck dealing with that awful situation, whatever you decide.
posted by languagehat at 9:38 AM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
To anon: I'm mad and angry on your behalf, and I empathize with you because goddamn, being a woman and talking to your father as an adult is so damn hard. I just wrote up a huge thing about my struggles with my own father, but then I realized that it wasn't really germane to this discussion because it didn't seem to be about EL but more about how much I've struggled with being able to communicate my feelings to my parents. That's probably a tangential discussion, maybe somewhat related, but I won't derail.
On another note, I read a protected FB comment in my feed from an acquaintance (female) who was worried about how she's finding it increasingly difficult to turn down social invites which include someone she doesn't feel comfortable associating with, and asking advice because she's tired of feeling alone. Almost everyone else in the comments is saying she should avoid drama. After having read this thread over the weekend, I believe I was the first person to say, "Fuck being polite and soft. Be blunt. Explain how you feel, and yeah, there may be social consequences, but speaking up when someone is being misogynistic around you is pretty damn important, too. And especially if the person's higher-ups you've complained to aren't doing anything about it either."
posted by TrishaLynn at 9:40 AM on July 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
On another note, I read a protected FB comment in my feed from an acquaintance (female) who was worried about how she's finding it increasingly difficult to turn down social invites which include someone she doesn't feel comfortable associating with, and asking advice because she's tired of feeling alone. Almost everyone else in the comments is saying she should avoid drama. After having read this thread over the weekend, I believe I was the first person to say, "Fuck being polite and soft. Be blunt. Explain how you feel, and yeah, there may be social consequences, but speaking up when someone is being misogynistic around you is pretty damn important, too. And especially if the person's higher-ups you've complained to aren't doing anything about it either."
posted by TrishaLynn at 9:40 AM on July 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I shunned both parents for years because I decided I would rather not spend one more second trifling with their bullshit. Through it all, I resisted every entreaty from well-meaning friends to re-adopt my parents because what if they died before we reconciled. They didn't die. We're reconciled. Except for my brother we're still all pretty terrible people, but for the most part my parents treat me and I treat them better than before I dropped them. We missed out on years of an unbearable inequitable relationship with each other in which they treated me and my brother poorly and I shrieked ineffectually and wasted time trying to make them be better. I am very much not sorry that I gave myself those delightful, parent-free years, particularly given that my brother and I will have to take care of them in their old age when they will lose the capacity to behave decently and will have no choice but to be a constant, exhausting drain on our energy. I encourage anyone with parents who are misbehaving and being exhausting when they're perfectly sentient and capable of learning how to behave decently and be useful people to allow those parents to make their own way in the world unassisted. This way, when they do start to actually need you to do for them what they can't do for themselves, you'll be all rested up and ready.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 9:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
I divorced my mother completely in late 2012. Have only begun talking to her, for a few minutes, when I choose to, from this year. And the minute its too much for me, I close the call even if its only been 3 minutes in the past month.
Take a break. Nobody says you're a selfish daughter in this thread. That's part of the game.
posted by infini at 10:18 AM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
Take a break. Nobody says you're a selfish daughter in this thread. That's part of the game.
posted by infini at 10:18 AM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
saucysault: Hey winter sweet, that is great you are still moving forward with your retreat/hermitage idea! Keep going forward in little steps.
Thanks for the encouragement. Part of me still wishes I could join forces with an already existing religious group or conservation land trust of some kind, as it is incredibly labour-intensive to do everything from scratch by myself, and of course this is all unpaid work...but after years of research, I've concluded that there's nothing out there currently that meets the specific needs I've identified. So the only alternative that makes sense is to build it myself, with an eye toward leaving behind a legacy for other Pagans with monastic inclinations.
Good thing this amazing thread has strengthened my commitment to avoid dating men who can't be bothered to meet me halfway emotionally. It frees up more time and energy for this project.
There are few places where women can find respite from the constant demand for unreciprocated, unrewarded, and unappreciated emotional labour. I want my hermitage to be one of those places. And thanks to this thread, I am now able to articulate that intention much more explicitly.
(Also, I like that revision of my username. Winter IS sweet - it's my favourite season!)
last month we purchased the property surrounded by conservation lands for them to start on.
Congratulations on the land purchase! I wish you the best with the project.
posted by velvet winter at 11:03 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Thanks for the encouragement. Part of me still wishes I could join forces with an already existing religious group or conservation land trust of some kind, as it is incredibly labour-intensive to do everything from scratch by myself, and of course this is all unpaid work...but after years of research, I've concluded that there's nothing out there currently that meets the specific needs I've identified. So the only alternative that makes sense is to build it myself, with an eye toward leaving behind a legacy for other Pagans with monastic inclinations.
Good thing this amazing thread has strengthened my commitment to avoid dating men who can't be bothered to meet me halfway emotionally. It frees up more time and energy for this project.
There are few places where women can find respite from the constant demand for unreciprocated, unrewarded, and unappreciated emotional labour. I want my hermitage to be one of those places. And thanks to this thread, I am now able to articulate that intention much more explicitly.
(Also, I like that revision of my username. Winter IS sweet - it's my favourite season!)
last month we purchased the property surrounded by conservation lands for them to start on.
Congratulations on the land purchase! I wish you the best with the project.
posted by velvet winter at 11:03 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I had a mental breakdown on Saturday where the exhaustion of being the Solo Emotional Laborer in my marriage hit me like a brick. I'm usually the first one to get up and get breakfast started, but I thought this once I'd let my husband take the lead. After eating, as we're watching Netflix from the couch I fall asleep and mumble something about being tired to my husband. It was only at the end of the day when I could articulate what had me so exhausted, that I approached him for a serious conversation.
Oh my god.
Turns out I had a shitty attitude the whole day, that I was sulking on the couch, that I wasn't being an adult by "tricking" him and taking a step back with cooking to see if he'd step up, that the whole thing exhausted him and because of that he's in such a bad mood that he can't deal with this, on and on and on. And in tears I told him that he could either concentrate on my reaction or the things that are causing it. Can you guess what we talked?
My tone.
How I could not worry about my tone in these conversations but the consequences of that action is completely on me, that he felt attacked and insulted by my word choice, that when it came to being empathetic and reading people and being there for them he was much better at it than me, that he was so exhausted from managing personalities and conflicts at work that he just couldn't deal with anything at home on top of it and I needed to be sensitive to that, that he doesn't feel appreciated, on and on. And on.
I've never felt so low in my entire life.
We got through it somehow though it's mostly a blur, but we made up and apologized and today we're supposed to Figure This Out. But remembering what happened makes me so angry that I'm about to fucking burst here. And deciding whether to rehash this argument and field more stupid is making me angry. And the fact that he thought that was an okay way to treat his wife makes me angry.
But fuck, I guess I'm supposed to swallow it all down and make nice if we're to move forward?
And you know what the real kicker is, the part that makes me realize he doesn't actually get this at all? I made a long list for him of all the things I have to worry about on a daily basis, all the things I keep track of in my head, all the plates I keep spinning to make sure our household is functional, and when he appended comments to it none of them were "I'll take this over immediately," it was "We'll alternate this." Or "We'll create a schedule."
How can I make him understand how hurtful that is? I don't even have the words at this point.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:31 AM on July 27, 2015 [73 favorites]
Oh my god.
Turns out I had a shitty attitude the whole day, that I was sulking on the couch, that I wasn't being an adult by "tricking" him and taking a step back with cooking to see if he'd step up, that the whole thing exhausted him and because of that he's in such a bad mood that he can't deal with this, on and on and on. And in tears I told him that he could either concentrate on my reaction or the things that are causing it. Can you guess what we talked?
My tone.
How I could not worry about my tone in these conversations but the consequences of that action is completely on me, that he felt attacked and insulted by my word choice, that when it came to being empathetic and reading people and being there for them he was much better at it than me, that he was so exhausted from managing personalities and conflicts at work that he just couldn't deal with anything at home on top of it and I needed to be sensitive to that, that he doesn't feel appreciated, on and on. And on.
I've never felt so low in my entire life.
We got through it somehow though it's mostly a blur, but we made up and apologized and today we're supposed to Figure This Out. But remembering what happened makes me so angry that I'm about to fucking burst here. And deciding whether to rehash this argument and field more stupid is making me angry. And the fact that he thought that was an okay way to treat his wife makes me angry.
But fuck, I guess I'm supposed to swallow it all down and make nice if we're to move forward?
And you know what the real kicker is, the part that makes me realize he doesn't actually get this at all? I made a long list for him of all the things I have to worry about on a daily basis, all the things I keep track of in my head, all the plates I keep spinning to make sure our household is functional, and when he appended comments to it none of them were "I'll take this over immediately," it was "We'll alternate this." Or "We'll create a schedule."
How can I make him understand how hurtful that is? I don't even have the words at this point.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:31 AM on July 27, 2015 [73 favorites]
that he felt attacked and insulted by my word choice
This is the worst mindfuck because there are no magic words, yet you can spend years (in my case) trying to find them. I stopped caring whether I'd brought something up at the right time and in the right way with the right words because they were literally never right. But it took years of trying to finally stop caring.
erratic meatsack: there are no magic words to make him understand. It's extremely hard to accept that either he does not care to understand, or he does understand and doesn't care to admit it. But assuming he speaks English fluently, those are your only two options. I'm sorry.
posted by desjardins at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2015 [49 favorites]
This is the worst mindfuck because there are no magic words, yet you can spend years (in my case) trying to find them. I stopped caring whether I'd brought something up at the right time and in the right way with the right words because they were literally never right. But it took years of trying to finally stop caring.
erratic meatsack: there are no magic words to make him understand. It's extremely hard to accept that either he does not care to understand, or he does understand and doesn't care to admit it. But assuming he speaks English fluently, those are your only two options. I'm sorry.
posted by desjardins at 11:50 AM on July 27, 2015 [49 favorites]
erratic meatsack, this may come under the heading of contributing to the larger problem, so please feel free to stomp on it: do you know any actually decent feminist guys who could sit down and make your husband listen? Sounds ridiculous, I know, and a large part of the problem is that fragile menfolk thing--he might listen to another dude just enough for other dude to go "and now go fucking listen to your wife."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:59 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:59 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
He's the most progressive person in our circle, and he's usually great and way ahead of other people when it comes to making abstract connections and conversations about General Feminist Ideas. I guess it's just the nitty-gritty that applies to his own blindspots that he has such a hard time admitting.
I don't know. I do know that there's a fantastic guy in there, but the work of dragging him out through educating the guy in front of me is crazy overwhelming.
I need to leave for a week or something, and if everyone starves or the house burns down while I'm gone then maybe oh well.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:16 PM on July 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
I don't know. I do know that there's a fantastic guy in there, but the work of dragging him out through educating the guy in front of me is crazy overwhelming.
I need to leave for a week or something, and if everyone starves or the house burns down while I'm gone then maybe oh well.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:16 PM on July 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
I've heard that Crone Island has outposts in solo hotel rooms.
Also they bring you alcohol when you pick up the phone and you don't have to get out of your pyjamas.
Just sayin.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:24 PM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
Also they bring you alcohol when you pick up the phone and you don't have to get out of your pyjamas.
Just sayin.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:24 PM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
I need to leave for a week or something, and if everyone starves or the house burns down while I'm gone then maybe oh well.
If you can swing this, it is AMAZING. Seriously. Says the person about to go across the country for eleven days and say fuckitall for just a little while to all the stuff I usually do...
posted by lriG rorriM at 12:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
If you can swing this, it is AMAZING. Seriously. Says the person about to go across the country for eleven days and say fuckitall for just a little while to all the stuff I usually do...
posted by lriG rorriM at 12:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
I need to leave for a week or something, and if everyone starves or the house burns down while I'm gone then maybe oh well.
I got a MeMail in response to my comments in this thread, from somebody inviting me to come visit and hang out in the hammock in her back yard and do nothing but chat and vent and eat and drink and relax.
It felt like finding an honest-to-goodness giftwrapped present waiting for me. I'm still tickled by it and am figuratively keeping it in my back pocket and pulling it out when I need a boost.
posted by Lexica at 12:42 PM on July 27, 2015 [29 favorites]
I got a MeMail in response to my comments in this thread, from somebody inviting me to come visit and hang out in the hammock in her back yard and do nothing but chat and vent and eat and drink and relax.
It felt like finding an honest-to-goodness giftwrapped present waiting for me. I'm still tickled by it and am figuratively keeping it in my back pocket and pulling it out when I need a boost.
posted by Lexica at 12:42 PM on July 27, 2015 [29 favorites]
Eh, leaving aside the fact that I mentioned things in this thread that perhaps are less than complimentary to my husband, at this point, this thread is so massive, it’s hard to recommend that friends read it, much less my husband. I get what you’re saying, nadawi, but I don’t know that a man’s refusal to read this thread after it’s thrown down like a gauntlet is necessarily a meaningful measure of anything
i was specifically talking about women who say to their partners, "i need you to read this." so, i don't think it's the same at all as whether a woman wants to say that to her partner. and i stand by what i said - if you say to your partner "this is very important to me, and important for the health of our relationship - i need you to read it" and the response is "it's too long" (or act like you've attacked them with misandry), then yeah, i do thing that's a very meaningful measure of how much he cares about his partner and their continued relationship.
posted by nadawi at 12:44 PM on July 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
i was specifically talking about women who say to their partners, "i need you to read this." so, i don't think it's the same at all as whether a woman wants to say that to her partner. and i stand by what i said - if you say to your partner "this is very important to me, and important for the health of our relationship - i need you to read it" and the response is "it's too long" (or act like you've attacked them with misandry), then yeah, i do thing that's a very meaningful measure of how much he cares about his partner and their continued relationship.
posted by nadawi at 12:44 PM on July 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
I heard a woman talk once about how every once in a while she books herself onto a weekend cruise, leaving her husband with the kids. She reads books and stays in bed as long as she feels like, and wanders up to the pool or the buffet when the mood strikes. And when you consider that it's all inclusive of the room and the food, it's cheaper than booking into a hotel.
I can't wait to book my first solo cruise!
posted by vignettist at 12:45 PM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
I can't wait to book my first solo cruise!
posted by vignettist at 12:45 PM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
Dear people who identify as men,
I am not looking for a guy who is "better than most guys" at emotional labor.
I am looking for a guy who: remembers that I said a thing hurts (physically or emotionally), and doesn't do the thing.
remembers that I mentioned [basic hygiene issue] is important to me, and takes care of [basic hygiene issuge]
talks to his doctor if [basic hygiene issue] or [health issue] is something he can't handle/resolve on his own.
figures out that something is bothering me and instead of asking "are you ok?" makes an effort to find out what is wrong. Saying "what's wrong?" doesn't count. Try questions like "is there something you'd like to talk about?" or "I notice you seem sad*, is there any way I can help?" (The answer to "are you ok?" is almost always going to be "yeah" because (most )women are trained to Not Have Problems and definitely not to make our problems visible. If our problem is apparent, it is a real problem and we are likely to be ashamed of having a problem.)
uses his words instead of pouty face when he has a problem.
defends me to our friends and families.
doesn't put me in the middle of disagreements between himself and his family.
recognizes that take suggestions for behavior change are not attacks on his character.
doesn't take requests for consideration as demands that he change his entire personality.
only describes himself as considerate or generous if he actually meets the basic definition of those traits. (pro tip - Considerate means thinking about, acknowledging, and accommodating, the needs and wishes of others. Generous would be giving more than people need and/or before they ask. And without expecting something in return.)
doesn't get all bent out of shape that this thing I just wrote after a week of bubbling frustration and sadness has terrible grammar and is partly in the negative rather than the positive. Because he doesn't need me to give him a cookie for each positive thing he does.
*There is a depression addendum and a family crisis addendum. Perhaps forthcoming. Maybe someone else will write it.
posted by bilabial at 1:07 PM on July 27, 2015 [57 favorites]
I am not looking for a guy who is "better than most guys" at emotional labor.
I am looking for a guy who:
- has vowed to scrub the words "Not All Men" from his vocabulary
- is (really actually) working on not being ablist and racist.
- talks casually to other men about these issues and how they effect work, home, family, and social spheres.
- recognizes my efforts, and appreciates them.
- perahaps by giving me credit when "he" throws a party, but I do all the list making, shopping, pre-cleaning, post-cleaning, and party game arranging.
- not just demanding that I "remind" him later of a thing he needs to do.
- thanking me when I remind him to call his mother. And then...calling him mother. Maybe not right that second, but honestly, If I'm reminding you of this, it's because we're at a point in the day when you have the time to do that.
- he acknowledges that this is a problem for me, instead of explaining why it shouldn't be upsetting. Both the problem, and the social training to Not Have Problems.
- he does not feed the social machine that says my problems are inconvenient and inconsequential anyway.
- he validates my response instead of telling me to "Just Act Happy until [I] feel happy".
- when there is a thing he can fix, he fixes it.
- when he thinks of a solution and I reject it saying "I can't walk that far" he doesn't just loudly say in front of our friends "Try walking way over there!" drawing attention to my problem and forcing me to engage in discussion of my private health issues while I'm in a lot of pain.
- believes me when I say "this can't be solved right now, but chocolate would help."
- gets me the damn chocolate.
- doesn't expect me to guess what the solution is.
- if his problem has a solution that he thinks I can help with, he asks me.
- if I suggest a solution that he doesn't want me to do, he doesn't encourage me to do the solution and then tell me it annoyed him.
posted by bilabial at 1:07 PM on July 27, 2015 [57 favorites]
vignettist: "I heard a woman talk once about how every once in a while she books herself onto a weekend cruise, leaving her husband with the kids. She reads books and stays in bed as long as she feels like, and wanders up to the pool or the buffet when the mood strikes. And when you consider that it's all inclusive of the room and the food, it's cheaper than booking into a hotel."
This entire thread has been revelatory (in a painful way) for me as the slack-assed half of a marriage that involves a lot of emotional labor. So it is with some small relief that I can say that the thing described above has always been an essential part of our marriage. Every so often, as needed (determined by either her or me), Mrs. Scrump takes off for a week or so to do her own thing. Most often she picks the time, but sometimes I step in as an outside observer and suggest that it's time for a break, especially when she's not doing such a great job of looking out for her own best interests.
I do it too, but it's a sign of how unbalanced things have been in our marriage that I don't need to do it as often. Pro tip for other people who are in a relationship with unbalanced emotional labor: if you run into this (one person needing more self-care or more "time off" than another), and you're interpreting it as you just not needing as much self-care of time off, you may want to reexamine your assumptions.
It's possible, maybe even probable, that you don't need it as much because you're not paying as much, and that the reason your partner needs more is because they're doing more.
At any rate, the taking-time-off thing is, I think, a minimum standard. I don't deserve some sort of special recognition for it. It's just something that seems naturally sane and obvious in a marriage, especially involving kids. You have to have time off from your "regular life", because you were a person in full before you were married, and that didn't stop just because you got married. There needs to be room for that person too.
Anyway. I'm noting this more out of a sense of relief, like "oh, thank God, there's something that I've actually maybe done right" than a sense of WITNESS MY AWESOMENESS, because this entire thread has, like I said, been revelatory. Painfully so. It doesn't speak particularly well of me that it took this thread for me to wake up, but thank God for this thread. And here's hoping I have enough rope left to positively change my behavior.
Thank you to everyone who's shared their experiences in here. Thank you so very much.
posted by scrump at 1:07 PM on July 27, 2015 [39 favorites]
This entire thread has been revelatory (in a painful way) for me as the slack-assed half of a marriage that involves a lot of emotional labor. So it is with some small relief that I can say that the thing described above has always been an essential part of our marriage. Every so often, as needed (determined by either her or me), Mrs. Scrump takes off for a week or so to do her own thing. Most often she picks the time, but sometimes I step in as an outside observer and suggest that it's time for a break, especially when she's not doing such a great job of looking out for her own best interests.
I do it too, but it's a sign of how unbalanced things have been in our marriage that I don't need to do it as often. Pro tip for other people who are in a relationship with unbalanced emotional labor: if you run into this (one person needing more self-care or more "time off" than another), and you're interpreting it as you just not needing as much self-care of time off, you may want to reexamine your assumptions.
It's possible, maybe even probable, that you don't need it as much because you're not paying as much, and that the reason your partner needs more is because they're doing more.
At any rate, the taking-time-off thing is, I think, a minimum standard. I don't deserve some sort of special recognition for it. It's just something that seems naturally sane and obvious in a marriage, especially involving kids. You have to have time off from your "regular life", because you were a person in full before you were married, and that didn't stop just because you got married. There needs to be room for that person too.
Anyway. I'm noting this more out of a sense of relief, like "oh, thank God, there's something that I've actually maybe done right" than a sense of WITNESS MY AWESOMENESS, because this entire thread has, like I said, been revelatory. Painfully so. It doesn't speak particularly well of me that it took this thread for me to wake up, but thank God for this thread. And here's hoping I have enough rope left to positively change my behavior.
Thank you to everyone who's shared their experiences in here. Thank you so very much.
posted by scrump at 1:07 PM on July 27, 2015 [39 favorites]
To add to my list:
- he is open to the idea of introducing something (anything!) different to our sex life and does not proclaim such a suggestion to be an indication that he is a terrible lover, with requisite comforting about penis size and adventurousness and...how he's the hottest sexiest thing I've ever seen.
- he initiates intimacy in a variety of ways/contexts and comfortably accepts a yes or a no or a maybe this other way without hostility or pouting.
- he makes it clear that he enjoys sexy times with me. And does not tell me "well, I had an orgasm! Isn't it obvious that I had a good time?"
- he touches me outside of his interest in sexual gratification.
I can't wait to book my first solo cruise!
I don't know how well it would work if you don't already have a vaguely equitable division of effort, but we instituted The Night Off when our sprog was particularly young. We each picked a day of the week and that's our default night off. Want to go have a drink with your friends? See a movie by yourself? Get a massage? Sit in the library and enjoy the silence? JUST BE ANYWHERE OTHER THAN HOME?
You don't have to clear it. You don't need to schedule it ahead of time. Nobody else gets to veto it. What happens to enable this at home is Not Your Damned Problem.
If one partner is a jackhole who already pisses off multiple evenings and doesn't pull their weight I don't know how this is going to help. But I think there's a lot to be said for everyone in a relationship confronting up front that your partner is not your fix-all and that time away on a regular basis is a good thing. This worked well for us because my wife felt (unnecessarily) guilty about asking for time away and as an introvert who had spent many years dealing with not-understanding partners I found feeling like I needed to ask for time away ruined half the value of it. So even though we felt pretty cool about things it was nice to just have the idea be a default assumption rather than something that had to be talked about on a regular basis.
posted by phearlez at 2:19 PM on July 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
I don't know how well it would work if you don't already have a vaguely equitable division of effort, but we instituted The Night Off when our sprog was particularly young. We each picked a day of the week and that's our default night off. Want to go have a drink with your friends? See a movie by yourself? Get a massage? Sit in the library and enjoy the silence? JUST BE ANYWHERE OTHER THAN HOME?
You don't have to clear it. You don't need to schedule it ahead of time. Nobody else gets to veto it. What happens to enable this at home is Not Your Damned Problem.
If one partner is a jackhole who already pisses off multiple evenings and doesn't pull their weight I don't know how this is going to help. But I think there's a lot to be said for everyone in a relationship confronting up front that your partner is not your fix-all and that time away on a regular basis is a good thing. This worked well for us because my wife felt (unnecessarily) guilty about asking for time away and as an introvert who had spent many years dealing with not-understanding partners I found feeling like I needed to ask for time away ruined half the value of it. So even though we felt pretty cool about things it was nice to just have the idea be a default assumption rather than something that had to be talked about on a regular basis.
posted by phearlez at 2:19 PM on July 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
I don't know, it would be great if the significant men in our lives were willing and able to read this whole thread, but I've been thinking it would be really nice to have some of the most important comments saved as a mini-book. For myself, even. So that I can refer back to it when, unavoidably, the world starts convincing me again that I am too sensitive and my expectations are unreasonable and I should just get on with the program... which already started happening, barely a week later.
posted by Ender's Friend at 2:21 PM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Ender's Friend at 2:21 PM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
If someone were willing to curate this into an informal chapbook... (I cannot at this time; pregnancy + typing = arms issues. :/ )
posted by XtinaS at 2:25 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by XtinaS at 2:25 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
It could have chapters! "It's not just you." "Strategies and methods to balance the scales." "How to refuse delivery of both circus and monkeys." "Oh shit, what if I'm the problem?" "Douchebags we have known and loved. Well, known." And the most important and possibly first chapter: "I am fucking fed the FUCK UP and I need an immediate method to avoid committing homicide."
posted by KathrynT at 2:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [48 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 2:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [48 favorites]
Someone mentioned the lavaballing thread way upthread here. I'd missed it so I've been reading it the last couple of days. A comment there triggered the realization of some EL that I'd done for years.
My mom died when I was in college. My parents were long divorced at that point, my dad incapable of any sort of support or any other EL, and for all intents and purposes I was alone in the world. I was young, reasonably attractive, and by virtue of being alone felt extremely vulnerable. Prior to this I'd had a long term boyfriend and enjoyed a healthy sex life. But after this, I was terrified of anyone making advances on me, especially street harrassers.
My (unconscious) solution was to gain weight. I made myself unattractive in order to defend myself from harrassment. I'm in my 40's now, and only in the last few years have felt confident enough as an adult to insist on being treated with respect, regardless of the setting. So I was finally in a mental place to he able to lose that extra weight. To get myself to where I felt attractive again, and not afraid to walk around in the world.
I think if I ever hear a catcall, or worse, if some idiot demands that I smile for them, my response will be "eff you! Do your own emotional labor!"
posted by vignettist at 2:36 PM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
My mom died when I was in college. My parents were long divorced at that point, my dad incapable of any sort of support or any other EL, and for all intents and purposes I was alone in the world. I was young, reasonably attractive, and by virtue of being alone felt extremely vulnerable. Prior to this I'd had a long term boyfriend and enjoyed a healthy sex life. But after this, I was terrified of anyone making advances on me, especially street harrassers.
My (unconscious) solution was to gain weight. I made myself unattractive in order to defend myself from harrassment. I'm in my 40's now, and only in the last few years have felt confident enough as an adult to insist on being treated with respect, regardless of the setting. So I was finally in a mental place to he able to lose that extra weight. To get myself to where I felt attractive again, and not afraid to walk around in the world.
I think if I ever hear a catcall, or worse, if some idiot demands that I smile for them, my response will be "eff you! Do your own emotional labor!"
posted by vignettist at 2:36 PM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Protip: if you do manage to secure a nice long weekend or a vacation awaaaaaay, do not stress out about getting everything JUST SO before you leave. You can leave the cat food bins half full, and someone else can go to the pet store and buy more as needed. It's ok. Really. Same with cleaning. And you can't possibly do ALL the laundry in the world before leaving. It's just not possible. People keep wearing things. That's how this works. It won't be your fault if things fall apart. Honest.
Brought to you by the president for life of the over-preparedness society, who coincidentally happens to have had terrible headaches for the last week. One of these days I'll learn to take my own good advice...
posted by lriG rorriM at 2:52 PM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
Brought to you by the president for life of the over-preparedness society, who coincidentally happens to have had terrible headaches for the last week. One of these days I'll learn to take my own good advice...
posted by lriG rorriM at 2:52 PM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
"eff you! Do your own emotional labor!"
"It's not my job to make you feel good."
posted by Thella at 2:52 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
"It's not my job to make you feel good."
posted by Thella at 2:52 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
And if you come home to a terrifying house populated by feral whoever lives in your house, turn around and take another week.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:08 PM on July 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
he touches me outside of his interest in sexual gratification.
This is so so so SO important.
posted by winna at 3:10 PM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is so so so SO important.
posted by winna at 3:10 PM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
Goodness, yes. Affection is important, outside of and apart from desire.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:20 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 3:20 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Back rubs and foot rubs-- we do a lot of those at my house. So many that we have to buy our coconut oil by the gallon.
I was thinking today about working as a cocktail waitress circa 79, 80. I worked in a bar attached to a restaurant located in an office building in downtown LA. Hoo Boy! major EL, although to be fair it was paid for because that is how you earn the big tips. So in my tiny skirt and low cut top I flirted shamelessly with all the businessmen who came in for a liquid lunch or to knock back a few before going home to the wife and kiddies. I let them pretend to themselves that they were devastatingly handsome and desirable and it was only because I had a jealous boyfriend that I couldn't go out with them.
In my cynical, feminist head though I would often look around at tables of laughing co-workers who preferred to eat their steak sandwiches and pomme frites in the bar so that they could oogle the cocktail waitresses (who were dressed in far more revealing outfits than the food waitresses) while drinking their Chivas Regal on the rocks and wonder to myself how many of them had wives at home eating the leftover PB&J sandwich that the toddler didn't want while cajoling the baby to eat one more spoon of mushy banana.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:44 PM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
I was thinking today about working as a cocktail waitress circa 79, 80. I worked in a bar attached to a restaurant located in an office building in downtown LA. Hoo Boy! major EL, although to be fair it was paid for because that is how you earn the big tips. So in my tiny skirt and low cut top I flirted shamelessly with all the businessmen who came in for a liquid lunch or to knock back a few before going home to the wife and kiddies. I let them pretend to themselves that they were devastatingly handsome and desirable and it was only because I had a jealous boyfriend that I couldn't go out with them.
In my cynical, feminist head though I would often look around at tables of laughing co-workers who preferred to eat their steak sandwiches and pomme frites in the bar so that they could oogle the cocktail waitresses (who were dressed in far more revealing outfits than the food waitresses) while drinking their Chivas Regal on the rocks and wonder to myself how many of them had wives at home eating the leftover PB&J sandwich that the toddler didn't want while cajoling the baby to eat one more spoon of mushy banana.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:44 PM on July 27, 2015 [17 favorites]
I just had a thought (while cleaning my apartment). It seems to me like men need a reason to clean--someone's coming over, for example. I know in the past that has been a strategy boyfriends and I have used with each other (both ways! not an angel in that regard at all); "So and so wants to come hang tonight let's tidy up" kinda thing. I have no idea if that maps to heterosexual relationships; does it?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:28 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Women and gay men are judged relentlessly for their housekeeping. Straight men are given carte blanche by society to be slobs.
An unclean house, in the case of a married man, is considered a value judgement against his spouse. If he's single, it's generally assumed that he either has more important things to do or that he is incapable of navigating the complexity of life. Either way, he's to be pitied, not scorned. According to the script.
The patriarchy, as always, hurts everyone.
posted by scrump at 6:50 PM on July 27, 2015 [21 favorites]
An unclean house, in the case of a married man, is considered a value judgement against his spouse. If he's single, it's generally assumed that he either has more important things to do or that he is incapable of navigating the complexity of life. Either way, he's to be pitied, not scorned. According to the script.
The patriarchy, as always, hurts everyone.
posted by scrump at 6:50 PM on July 27, 2015 [21 favorites]
fffm, it maps to hetero relationships, in my experience to an extent. I have lifted the phrase "painting door knobs" from a blogger named Julia. She uses it in reference to longer term guests coming, but it's true for my life of even having two people over for wine and cheese.
I'm over here doing all the list making and the bed prepping and the baseboard wiping and hiding his unopened mail in his dresser drawer and grocery shopping and the pre-cooking and the itenerary making and the bathroom stocking and the guy is usually...engrossed in some project like repainting all the door knobs. Door knobs that we need to, you know, use in the meantime.
This especially chaps my ass when I've got a to-do list on the coffee table that I'm crossing things off and have said "hey, can you start from the bottom of the list? Susan is allergic to dogs and I know Pickles was over last week, so if you could dust and then sweep/swiffer/vacuum, that would be a big help!"
But he doesn't know how to dust or where he keeps the swiffer cloths. He knows how to paint door knobs. First, he's just gonna run down to the hardware store and get some paint. He'll walk past the grocery both ways and not ask if anything needs to be picked up.
If I were just say "fuck it" and put my feet up, or go get my nails done (ha! I can't afford that, but I'm dreaming big here!) there would be comments. Questions like, "Oh, bilabial, you must be so busy these days! What's keeping you so busy?" or "bilabial, have you been staying at your place a lot lately, it just doesn't look like you've been here much." Ugh. It's not my place. This is not my party. Stop asking me why he's got stacks up credit card offers and assorted ball caps littering his apartment. I picked up everything I had time to get to.
(This bleeds into the workplace. A married man is considered (in the sociology findings) to bring "more than" one person to work with him, because it is assumed he has someoone feeding/dressing/cruise directing him. This frees up his brain space for ... work. On the other hand, a married woman is considered to bring less than a whole person to work. Because she is assumed to be feeding/dressing/cruise directing at least one other human. And possibly incubating another. This is taking up valuable brain space that could be devoted to work.
posted by bilabial at 6:57 PM on July 27, 2015 [65 favorites]
I'm over here doing all the list making and the bed prepping and the baseboard wiping and hiding his unopened mail in his dresser drawer and grocery shopping and the pre-cooking and the itenerary making and the bathroom stocking and the guy is usually...engrossed in some project like repainting all the door knobs. Door knobs that we need to, you know, use in the meantime.
This especially chaps my ass when I've got a to-do list on the coffee table that I'm crossing things off and have said "hey, can you start from the bottom of the list? Susan is allergic to dogs and I know Pickles was over last week, so if you could dust and then sweep/swiffer/vacuum, that would be a big help!"
But he doesn't know how to dust or where he keeps the swiffer cloths. He knows how to paint door knobs. First, he's just gonna run down to the hardware store and get some paint. He'll walk past the grocery both ways and not ask if anything needs to be picked up.
If I were just say "fuck it" and put my feet up, or go get my nails done (ha! I can't afford that, but I'm dreaming big here!) there would be comments. Questions like, "Oh, bilabial, you must be so busy these days! What's keeping you so busy?" or "bilabial, have you been staying at your place a lot lately, it just doesn't look like you've been here much." Ugh. It's not my place. This is not my party. Stop asking me why he's got stacks up credit card offers and assorted ball caps littering his apartment. I picked up everything I had time to get to.
(This bleeds into the workplace. A married man is considered (in the sociology findings) to bring "more than" one person to work with him, because it is assumed he has someoone feeding/dressing/cruise directing him. This frees up his brain space for ... work. On the other hand, a married woman is considered to bring less than a whole person to work. Because she is assumed to be feeding/dressing/cruise directing at least one other human. And possibly incubating another. This is taking up valuable brain space that could be devoted to work.
posted by bilabial at 6:57 PM on July 27, 2015 [65 favorites]
Gotcha. I've only ever been on your side of that situation once, and after a little while just went "your party, you deal with this" when he started painting doorknobs (I am so stealing that as a phrase). Not pretending I haven't been a doorknob painter myself; this thread has battered into my head never to be That Guy again.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:09 PM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:09 PM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yet another cishet man chiming in to thank everyone for their contributions to the thread. I like to think I'm pretty good at doing the social-glue aspects - the checking in with friends from time-to-time, the cards, the organizing of events. Comes from being the long-term single person with lots of friends in couplets. Decent about performative emotional labour in my workplace, where I am the sole owner and have a female staffer.
But daaaaaaaaang has this thread opened my eyes to a lot of failures on my part. Oooof.
Yeah. Not saying anything new. But I figured it wouldn't make sense to read and benefit from this thread without at minimum thanking everyone.
Also this has given me the vocab to talk about why some of my friend-relationships have cratered: I got angry at the lack of reciprocation of emotional labour. At some point I can't be the only person trying to connect. That being said, I am realizing that I get more annoyed when it's my women friends not doing so, rather than my men friends. Because, well, sexism. Clearly they should be able to perform such labour or should notice it more clearly, because they're women. Um. Thanks, Mefites!
Also me-tooing the motion for a presentable version of the thread for non-Mefites, and probably even non-internet lifers. I mean, it's only...559 pages crudely converted to epub.
posted by Lemurrhea at 7:11 PM on July 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
But daaaaaaaaang has this thread opened my eyes to a lot of failures on my part. Oooof.
Yeah. Not saying anything new. But I figured it wouldn't make sense to read and benefit from this thread without at minimum thanking everyone.
Also this has given me the vocab to talk about why some of my friend-relationships have cratered: I got angry at the lack of reciprocation of emotional labour. At some point I can't be the only person trying to connect. That being said, I am realizing that I get more annoyed when it's my women friends not doing so, rather than my men friends. Because, well, sexism. Clearly they should be able to perform such labour or should notice it more clearly, because they're women. Um. Thanks, Mefites!
Also me-tooing the motion for a presentable version of the thread for non-Mefites, and probably even non-internet lifers. I mean, it's only...559 pages crudely converted to epub.
posted by Lemurrhea at 7:11 PM on July 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
I just had a thought (while cleaning my apartment). It seems to me like men need a reason to clean--someone's coming over, for example. I know in the past that has been a strategy boyfriends and I have used with each other (both ways! not an angel in that regard at all); "So and so wants to come hang tonight let's tidy up" kinda thing. I have no idea if that maps to heterosexual relationships; does it?
I mean, anecdata, but it also maps onto my dude-free relationship--neither of us really wants to clean when we've been working, and especially when there's a project on, mess can really pile up. The threat of guests coming over is a pretty good incentive to get both of us up and cleaning and more to the point, organizing. (In particular, I'm the one who is relatively bad at the executive function type stuff, and it's a pretty good impending deadline to shift me into panicky cleaning mode from frozen mode. I'm also the one who finds clutter more irritating, though, so it usually balances out when I go into cleaning frenzy.)
But on the other hand... There's a huge difference between how that plays out with us and what Lyn Never is describing. For example, there's not a ton of explicit discussion about what needs to happen beyond quickly tossed asides that go back and forth as we're working. Along the lines of this: "hey I'm getting the marinade for the barbecue sorry I'm making a mess" "cool, when you're done and I'm done putting stuff away can you vacuum while I wash dishes?" "kay." If both of us aren't up and moving, that's usually the result of an explicit division of labor agreed upon in advance. Mostly, though, if there's a deadline everyone is up and moving.
I mean. I totally understand the doorknob-painting impulse; I get fixated on small things and cannot. let. them. go. all the time, frequently with comedically poor timing. But something likes "guests are coming over" is not at all the sort of thing that triggers that irritating, anxiety-ridden microfocus.
Guests coming over is something that has specific things that need to be done--there needs to be food, there needs to be minimal clutter, the vacuum has to be run, the counters need to be spotless, there shouldn't be visible dirt anywhere, the dishes should be clean, the trash should be empty (yes even the bathroom trash). Lots of little tasks with obvious checks and obvious things to do if something comes up missing. With two people who know what those things to look at are, there really doesn't need to be a lot of discussion of what tasks need done. The only thing that needs to be communicated is "I did this thing" or "I saw this was done!" as people work through their respective mental checklists.
Doorknob painting or lilac trimming happens when I'm overwhelmed with the options and have absolutely no idea how to move forward, and I'm hiding from confronting the problem because I'm paralyzed with anxiety. This is a thing I've really struggled with at work, especially since my projects are very open-ended and I don't have a lot of structure. The thing that gets me about guys and housework is that a lifetime of not being expected to chip in on these things means that they don't have that basic toolkit of things to start on... but also, not being willing to admit to anxiety/overwhelmedness without derailing the other person's focus to their own emotions means that they don't often just... dig in and get moving. Of course, I may be projecting there?
For the record, dudes who may be resolving to do better? I recommend checklists where you break big open-ended tasks ('prep house for guests') into smaller tasks or questions to ask ('check dishwasher for empty dishes, is floor vacuumed?, has dog been fed?') and check them off as you do them. It's really good at talking yourself past that "but I don't know what to do" anxiety, and it does get much better as you go.
posted by sciatrix at 7:42 PM on July 27, 2015 [29 favorites]
I mean, anecdata, but it also maps onto my dude-free relationship--neither of us really wants to clean when we've been working, and especially when there's a project on, mess can really pile up. The threat of guests coming over is a pretty good incentive to get both of us up and cleaning and more to the point, organizing. (In particular, I'm the one who is relatively bad at the executive function type stuff, and it's a pretty good impending deadline to shift me into panicky cleaning mode from frozen mode. I'm also the one who finds clutter more irritating, though, so it usually balances out when I go into cleaning frenzy.)
But on the other hand... There's a huge difference between how that plays out with us and what Lyn Never is describing. For example, there's not a ton of explicit discussion about what needs to happen beyond quickly tossed asides that go back and forth as we're working. Along the lines of this: "hey I'm getting the marinade for the barbecue sorry I'm making a mess" "cool, when you're done and I'm done putting stuff away can you vacuum while I wash dishes?" "kay." If both of us aren't up and moving, that's usually the result of an explicit division of labor agreed upon in advance. Mostly, though, if there's a deadline everyone is up and moving.
I mean. I totally understand the doorknob-painting impulse; I get fixated on small things and cannot. let. them. go. all the time, frequently with comedically poor timing. But something likes "guests are coming over" is not at all the sort of thing that triggers that irritating, anxiety-ridden microfocus.
Guests coming over is something that has specific things that need to be done--there needs to be food, there needs to be minimal clutter, the vacuum has to be run, the counters need to be spotless, there shouldn't be visible dirt anywhere, the dishes should be clean, the trash should be empty (yes even the bathroom trash). Lots of little tasks with obvious checks and obvious things to do if something comes up missing. With two people who know what those things to look at are, there really doesn't need to be a lot of discussion of what tasks need done. The only thing that needs to be communicated is "I did this thing" or "I saw this was done!" as people work through their respective mental checklists.
Doorknob painting or lilac trimming happens when I'm overwhelmed with the options and have absolutely no idea how to move forward, and I'm hiding from confronting the problem because I'm paralyzed with anxiety. This is a thing I've really struggled with at work, especially since my projects are very open-ended and I don't have a lot of structure. The thing that gets me about guys and housework is that a lifetime of not being expected to chip in on these things means that they don't have that basic toolkit of things to start on... but also, not being willing to admit to anxiety/overwhelmedness without derailing the other person's focus to their own emotions means that they don't often just... dig in and get moving. Of course, I may be projecting there?
For the record, dudes who may be resolving to do better? I recommend checklists where you break big open-ended tasks ('prep house for guests') into smaller tasks or questions to ask ('check dishwasher for empty dishes, is floor vacuumed?, has dog been fed?') and check them off as you do them. It's really good at talking yourself past that "but I don't know what to do" anxiety, and it does get much better as you go.
posted by sciatrix at 7:42 PM on July 27, 2015 [29 favorites]
It's been interesting to see how things are going around here. My husband does seem to be making efforts to address emotional labor-type things; I got home from work on Friday to find that he'd done laundry… which he usually does, but clearly he'd sorted through the hamper to pull out and wash all of my stuff. None of it was his. And he emailed me a couple of days ago to say "phoned my folks; Mom loves you and feels bad about not sending you a birthday card, but I told her about the emotional labor thread and that you wouldn't be getting down on another woman for not doing that right now." So obviously this thread and the concept of emotional labor have been on his mind. However, we haven't had any kind of actual discussion about it.
Relatedly, we went to see Magic Mike XXL on Sunday. Loved it; we both had a great time (he was the only man in the theater) and want to see it again. Everything I've read about how unusual and refreshing it is was true.
There's a moment in the movie when Donald Glover's character, Andre, is talking with the other dancers. "These girls have to deal with men in their lives every day who — they don't listen to them. They don't ask them what they want. They don't even ask them what they want. All we got to do is ask them what they want. And when they tell you… it's a beautiful thing, man. It's like — we're, like, healers or something."
Really, dudes. Ask. That's an amazing first step.
posted by Lexica at 8:23 PM on July 27, 2015 [45 favorites]
Relatedly, we went to see Magic Mike XXL on Sunday. Loved it; we both had a great time (he was the only man in the theater) and want to see it again. Everything I've read about how unusual and refreshing it is was true.
There's a moment in the movie when Donald Glover's character, Andre, is talking with the other dancers. "These girls have to deal with men in their lives every day who — they don't listen to them. They don't ask them what they want. They don't even ask them what they want. All we got to do is ask them what they want. And when they tell you… it's a beautiful thing, man. It's like — we're, like, healers or something."
Really, dudes. Ask. That's an amazing first step.
posted by Lexica at 8:23 PM on July 27, 2015 [45 favorites]
We absolutely have people over in order to kind of force above-baseline cleaning, as a carrot-and-stick situation. But I need the carrot less than he does; it's much easier to keep him directed and focused on a multi-hour cleaning project, and stop him painting doorknobs*, when there is a deadline.
*Before I leaned how to manage this, I would tell him to clean the bathroom and find him, two hours later, cleaning under the sink.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:29 PM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
*Before I leaned how to manage this, I would tell him to clean the bathroom and find him, two hours later, cleaning under the sink.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:29 PM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well don't just leave us hanging! How did you learn to manage this?? Because yeah, doorknob painting/lilac trimming/cleaning under the sink aaaarrrgh.
posted by HotToddy at 9:09 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 9:09 PM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I thought of this thread this weekend, when a male acquaintance asked me if I was pregnant (at a wedding, where I was holding a beer) and made it clear through his reaction to me saying "um, no" that he was drawing from the way my body looked and felt bad about having made an assumption... and then spent hours trying to get me to absolve him of how bad HE FELT.
Dude, you were cruel to me. I get to be mad about that. I don't have to make you feel better about it.
(I also registered just for this thread, and am only halfway through the comments as of now but have been reading for days.)
posted by emilywk at 9:57 PM on July 27, 2015 [67 favorites]
Dude, you were cruel to me. I get to be mad about that. I don't have to make you feel better about it.
(I also registered just for this thread, and am only halfway through the comments as of now but have been reading for days.)
posted by emilywk at 9:57 PM on July 27, 2015 [67 favorites]
This thread gave me the conceptual framework to realize how I am being unfair to my husband with regards to one particular task. He does all our bill-paying / account reconciling / budgeting; he doesn't like it and it doesn't come very naturally to him, but I am absolutely terrible at it and I have terrible guilt/shame issues about how bad I am at it (and frankly about spending money to begin with seeing as I don't work outside the home) (that's another whole thing, but it's my thing, he doesn't add anything to it at all). It's pretty stressful for him, particularly when we have a lot of unexpected expenses. Like when our daughter aspirated a sunflower seed and it had to be surgically removed after her lung collapsed in the ER, for example.
Anyway, he gets stressed, and I feel guilty because he is stressed, and I want him to not be stressed AT ME, and I run and hide because I have such a strong reaction to his stress. But. . . he ISN'T stressed at me. He's stressed because it's a shitty stressful task. He's not mad at me because we had a no-shit she-would-have-died medical emergency the year we switched to a high deductible plan because it offered better coverage for the gaspingly expensive medication he has to take and now we have to withdraw money from our retirement account to cover the cost of saving our daughter's life; he's mad because that sucks. So this month, instead of running away, I did the early prep by getting all the medical bills and doing the calling about what was final and what was pending, and I wrote down the status of each one on the bill, and when he sat down to do the spreadsheet mojo I got him a glass of wine and thanked him. And when I did that, he said "No, thank YOU. I know this is hard for you, and I appreciate that you're here with me."
That is better. It's just a better way to be.
posted by KathrynT at 10:25 PM on July 27, 2015 [96 favorites]
Anyway, he gets stressed, and I feel guilty because he is stressed, and I want him to not be stressed AT ME, and I run and hide because I have such a strong reaction to his stress. But. . . he ISN'T stressed at me. He's stressed because it's a shitty stressful task. He's not mad at me because we had a no-shit she-would-have-died medical emergency the year we switched to a high deductible plan because it offered better coverage for the gaspingly expensive medication he has to take and now we have to withdraw money from our retirement account to cover the cost of saving our daughter's life; he's mad because that sucks. So this month, instead of running away, I did the early prep by getting all the medical bills and doing the calling about what was final and what was pending, and I wrote down the status of each one on the bill, and when he sat down to do the spreadsheet mojo I got him a glass of wine and thanked him. And when I did that, he said "No, thank YOU. I know this is hard for you, and I appreciate that you're here with me."
That is better. It's just a better way to be.
posted by KathrynT at 10:25 PM on July 27, 2015 [96 favorites]
How did you learn to manage this??
Eh, I didn't get there by the best possible path, but I just checked on him frequently and corrected with "They're not going to look under the sink/they're not going in our closet/we'll just close the bedroom door" and eventually just started handing out very specific assignments: I need you to break down all the Amazon boxes and put them where guests can't see them but do not completely fill the recycling bin, find all the scattered clothing and go put it in a hamper, vacuum, and then go place and bring home this specific order from the falafel place, get yourself a baklava.
This is one of those trade-offs. He has ADD, and we both agree that all things considered we're all happier without the Adderall than with now that he mostly has a system. He'll do the harder/hotter work if I do the thinking, and over time he learns*. All I had to do this weekend was pick up my crap in the common-area bathroom and move the wastebasket and TP stand out into the hallway, and he vacuumed the floor and cobwebby corners as he was working on the hallway. That's a huge huge huge advance from even 2 years ago.
*We also had a brief conversation about this thread which I doubt he's read in its entirety but has probably looked at. He is being especially mindful about doing as much thinking as he can on his own since that conversation.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:55 PM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
Eh, I didn't get there by the best possible path, but I just checked on him frequently and corrected with "They're not going to look under the sink/they're not going in our closet/we'll just close the bedroom door" and eventually just started handing out very specific assignments: I need you to break down all the Amazon boxes and put them where guests can't see them but do not completely fill the recycling bin, find all the scattered clothing and go put it in a hamper, vacuum, and then go place and bring home this specific order from the falafel place, get yourself a baklava.
This is one of those trade-offs. He has ADD, and we both agree that all things considered we're all happier without the Adderall than with now that he mostly has a system. He'll do the harder/hotter work if I do the thinking, and over time he learns*. All I had to do this weekend was pick up my crap in the common-area bathroom and move the wastebasket and TP stand out into the hallway, and he vacuumed the floor and cobwebby corners as he was working on the hallway. That's a huge huge huge advance from even 2 years ago.
*We also had a brief conversation about this thread which I doubt he's read in its entirety but has probably looked at. He is being especially mindful about doing as much thinking as he can on his own since that conversation.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:55 PM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
It's funny how the trade-off is often "you do the hated Things, I'll do the telling you what to do," because the delegating is a job in itself. I always feel guilty/have a lot of cognitive dissonance over this and have to actively remind me how much I hated being the Knower of Things and the Doer of Things. Now that my boyfriend is more of a Knower, I feel comfortable doing more Doing.
posted by easter queen at 11:11 PM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 11:11 PM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, the more they Do, the more they Know, so then you can begin to split the mental and physical tasks in earnest. (Or just keep on with the delegating / doing split, if that works best.)
posted by easter queen at 11:11 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 11:11 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Lexica: I got a MeMail in response to my comments in this thread, from somebody inviting me to come visit and hang out in the hammock in her back yard and do nothing but chat and vent and eat and drink and relax.
That's great! I, too, got some mail in response to my comments in this thread, from someone who was wondering about my hermitage plans. And it made me think: I am fortunate to have a nice quiet meditative studio space filled with Pagan shrines and art, and I enjoy sharing it with guests for afternoon tea. Would-be Crone Islanders in or near downtown Portland, OR who need a break from unreciprocated emotional labour are welcome to contact me - e-mail's in profile. I'll serve you tea and we can share stories. Or just sit and relax in sweet silence.
posted by velvet winter at 1:40 AM on July 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
That's great! I, too, got some mail in response to my comments in this thread, from someone who was wondering about my hermitage plans. And it made me think: I am fortunate to have a nice quiet meditative studio space filled with Pagan shrines and art, and I enjoy sharing it with guests for afternoon tea. Would-be Crone Islanders in or near downtown Portland, OR who need a break from unreciprocated emotional labour are welcome to contact me - e-mail's in profile. I'll serve you tea and we can share stories. Or just sit and relax in sweet silence.
posted by velvet winter at 1:40 AM on July 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
From a logistical standpoint, having the Thinker keep notes on what they have thought and why might be a good idea, for people breaking it down that way. I've not experienced it, but my understanding is that in a thinker/doer pairing, if the thinker is injured/dies/etc... then the doer is often in a very bad situation not only trying to accomplish things from scratch, but also doing so when in distress.
It's a side note, but something that stands out for me with that particular breakdown.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:09 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's a side note, but something that stands out for me with that particular breakdown.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:09 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
*There is a depression addendum and a family crisis addendum. Perhaps forthcoming. Maybe someone else will write it.
FAMILY CRISIS ADDENDUM*
• you will recognize that there are no headlights, so standing there waiting to stare into them like a deer will accomplish nothing. If you feel frozen, say it.
• you will remember that we are a cohesive unit that can problem-solve together and I do not have a chromosome that allows only me to figure everything out while you paint the doorknob/prune the lilac.
• you will note what's going on and say, "What do WE need to do here?"
• you will know that this is hard for ALL OF US, not just you. And you know how you're sad and perplexed and feel impotent? SO DOES YOUR PARTNER WHO DOES NOT WANT TO PAT YOU DOWN and remember, she's probably reading your emotions and actions and is preparing to do just that, so:
• you will then say, "I am sad (or insert emotion) but I know that is not the problem right now. We will get through this together; do not worry about patting me down. Do not feel like you're the quarterback here. We are a team."
• depending on the circumstance, it's probably not your job to second guess the medical professionals.
• you know that if you are overwhelmed and and need to paint the doorknob/prune the lilac, your partner is EQUALLY overwhelmed, therefore,
• you DO NOT LEAVE.
• you know that entering a hospital/hospice room REALLY SUCKS for everyone. You are not the only one who doesn't like hospitals. Please shut up about how you really can't go in there, just go in there because your loved ones (and the person in the bed) should not have to deal with your antics right now.
• If you really have no idea how to be helpful and the doorknobs/lilacs are calling, then and ONLY then is it okay to say, "Hey, I want to help. I do not know what to do, though. But I want to stay here and be helpful. I am NOT putting this on you." Perhaps through this verbal process you will note that hotels need to be booked, people need to be called, lunch needs to be ordered, prescriptions need to be picked up. No matter what, almost always people will appreciate a good cup of coffee. DOING NOTHING IS NEVER THE BEST MOVE.
• Never underestimate the power of holding someone's hand and squeezing it for strength.
• Hug people.
• Remember, a family crisis affects everyone in the family, not just you.
• For non-life threatening things like housebound family illness (flu, viruses), most of the same applies but add that your job is to go out and get ALL the medication, crackers, popsicles, soups, tissues, decongestant, ginger ale WITHOUT being asked. You make tea, Gatorade, pillows, blankets and you NEVER take control of the TV. Put on ALL the videos for any children or make arrangements to get them out of the house so your SO can sleep. Or just deal with the kids yourself. Perhaps an indoor playground or Chuck E Cheese. You do not need permission to do this so do not ask.
•For the love of all that is good and holy, do NOT ask your SO anything about pet/kid survival. This is not the time to ask, "What do I give the kids for breakfast?" or "Where is the dog food?" or "What time do the kids need to get to school?" or anything else that indicates you cannot solve a basic problem on your own. Figure it out and let your partner sleep.Remember, children usually eat several times daily and bathe at least once. You can make them pasta and get them clean; your partner's illness is not the time to let standards slip and get to know the pizza delivery people on a first-name basis. You will also do laundry, dust as needed, vacuum and get out the trash but remember, you do not get a pat on the head, medal or a blowjob for doing any of this, so don't ask.**
• If you have a pre-arranged sport or game to play and you're SO isn't feeling well, CANCEL THAT THING. DO not ask them what you should do. CANCEL IT. Do not tell your SO you've cancelled this. Just shut up about it.
**NOBODY LIKES CHILDREN VOMITING. Your SO does not have a special gene that allows her to hold their heads and clean up after them and wash their clothes and bedding. Shut up and get in there and deal with your sick kids.
• And when YOU'RE sick, don't be a helpless baby. You are NOT dying. Keep the moaning to a minimum and remember that manners cost nothing and you can always say "thank you" for your soup and toss your dirty snotrags into the trash. They do not go on the floor. Ew.
posted by kinetic at 4:47 AM on July 28, 2015 [62 favorites]
FAMILY CRISIS ADDENDUM*
• you will recognize that there are no headlights, so standing there waiting to stare into them like a deer will accomplish nothing. If you feel frozen, say it.
• you will remember that we are a cohesive unit that can problem-solve together and I do not have a chromosome that allows only me to figure everything out while you paint the doorknob/prune the lilac.
• you will note what's going on and say, "What do WE need to do here?"
• you will know that this is hard for ALL OF US, not just you. And you know how you're sad and perplexed and feel impotent? SO DOES YOUR PARTNER WHO DOES NOT WANT TO PAT YOU DOWN and remember, she's probably reading your emotions and actions and is preparing to do just that, so:
• you will then say, "I am sad (or insert emotion) but I know that is not the problem right now. We will get through this together; do not worry about patting me down. Do not feel like you're the quarterback here. We are a team."
• depending on the circumstance, it's probably not your job to second guess the medical professionals.
• you know that if you are overwhelmed and and need to paint the doorknob/prune the lilac, your partner is EQUALLY overwhelmed, therefore,
• you DO NOT LEAVE.
• you know that entering a hospital/hospice room REALLY SUCKS for everyone. You are not the only one who doesn't like hospitals. Please shut up about how you really can't go in there, just go in there because your loved ones (and the person in the bed) should not have to deal with your antics right now.
• If you really have no idea how to be helpful and the doorknobs/lilacs are calling, then and ONLY then is it okay to say, "Hey, I want to help. I do not know what to do, though. But I want to stay here and be helpful. I am NOT putting this on you." Perhaps through this verbal process you will note that hotels need to be booked, people need to be called, lunch needs to be ordered, prescriptions need to be picked up. No matter what, almost always people will appreciate a good cup of coffee. DOING NOTHING IS NEVER THE BEST MOVE.
• Never underestimate the power of holding someone's hand and squeezing it for strength.
• Hug people.
• Remember, a family crisis affects everyone in the family, not just you.
• For non-life threatening things like housebound family illness (flu, viruses), most of the same applies but add that your job is to go out and get ALL the medication, crackers, popsicles, soups, tissues, decongestant, ginger ale WITHOUT being asked. You make tea, Gatorade, pillows, blankets and you NEVER take control of the TV. Put on ALL the videos for any children or make arrangements to get them out of the house so your SO can sleep. Or just deal with the kids yourself. Perhaps an indoor playground or Chuck E Cheese. You do not need permission to do this so do not ask.
•For the love of all that is good and holy, do NOT ask your SO anything about pet/kid survival. This is not the time to ask, "What do I give the kids for breakfast?" or "Where is the dog food?" or "What time do the kids need to get to school?" or anything else that indicates you cannot solve a basic problem on your own. Figure it out and let your partner sleep.Remember, children usually eat several times daily and bathe at least once. You can make them pasta and get them clean; your partner's illness is not the time to let standards slip and get to know the pizza delivery people on a first-name basis. You will also do laundry, dust as needed, vacuum and get out the trash but remember, you do not get a pat on the head, medal or a blowjob for doing any of this, so don't ask.**
• If you have a pre-arranged sport or game to play and you're SO isn't feeling well, CANCEL THAT THING. DO not ask them what you should do. CANCEL IT. Do not tell your SO you've cancelled this. Just shut up about it.
**NOBODY LIKES CHILDREN VOMITING. Your SO does not have a special gene that allows her to hold their heads and clean up after them and wash their clothes and bedding. Shut up and get in there and deal with your sick kids.
• And when YOU'RE sick, don't be a helpless baby. You are NOT dying. Keep the moaning to a minimum and remember that manners cost nothing and you can always say "thank you" for your soup and toss your dirty snotrags into the trash. They do not go on the floor. Ew.
posted by kinetic at 4:47 AM on July 28, 2015 [62 favorites]
• Never underestimate the power of holding someone's hand and squeezing it for strength.
Oh my hell, this. I was dating my last boyfriend when my social anxiety was at a lifetime high, to the point where being in crowds for more than a few minutes, or especially the subway, was a terrifying experience. I'd told him about this, and he was really, really good about keeping an eye on how I was doing. A few times we'd be on the subway, or in a crowded market, and he'd notice me starting to get a bit snakey--he'd just reach out and squeeze my hand. It made all the difference in the world.
The boyfriend before him, I had the flu at one point a few days before he had to be on a plane. I told him not to come over because I didn't want to get him sick. He agreed. Twenty minutes later he called and said "I'm on my way over, what kind of soup do you want?" Came over, fed me soup and ginger ale and cuddled me.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:43 AM on July 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oh my hell, this. I was dating my last boyfriend when my social anxiety was at a lifetime high, to the point where being in crowds for more than a few minutes, or especially the subway, was a terrifying experience. I'd told him about this, and he was really, really good about keeping an eye on how I was doing. A few times we'd be on the subway, or in a crowded market, and he'd notice me starting to get a bit snakey--he'd just reach out and squeeze my hand. It made all the difference in the world.
The boyfriend before him, I had the flu at one point a few days before he had to be on a plane. I told him not to come over because I didn't want to get him sick. He agreed. Twenty minutes later he called and said "I'm on my way over, what kind of soup do you want?" Came over, fed me soup and ginger ale and cuddled me.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:43 AM on July 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
The boyfriend before him, I had the flu at one point a few days before he had to be on a plane. I told him not to come over because I didn't want to get him sick. He agreed. Twenty minutes later he called and said "I'm on my way over, what kind of soup do you want?"
My boyfriend and I are still trying to figure out how to wrangle "I will tell you not to come over for your sake but really I want you to come over for my sake" situations. It's not really fair for me to expect him to intuit which times I shouldn't be taken at my word -- but of course saying "don't come over" in the first place is a result of habitually taking on emotional labor and assuming it won't be reciprocated. (I'm no fun! The apartment is messy! I am not nice to look at right now! It would be a pain in the ass for him!)
But my other guy, who is on the whole MUCH worse at EL, has this one down pat for some reason. This winter I got super depressed at one point and was telling him about all the housework I couldn't do, and he said "if you don't text me by x time and tell me that I absolutely am not allowed to, I'm coming over and doing your dishes." The switch from men's default "I will if you ask me" to "I will if you don't ask me not to" is simple but really powerful in terms of where it sites the responsibility.
posted by babelfish at 9:14 AM on July 28, 2015 [43 favorites]
My boyfriend and I are still trying to figure out how to wrangle "I will tell you not to come over for your sake but really I want you to come over for my sake" situations. It's not really fair for me to expect him to intuit which times I shouldn't be taken at my word -- but of course saying "don't come over" in the first place is a result of habitually taking on emotional labor and assuming it won't be reciprocated. (I'm no fun! The apartment is messy! I am not nice to look at right now! It would be a pain in the ass for him!)
But my other guy, who is on the whole MUCH worse at EL, has this one down pat for some reason. This winter I got super depressed at one point and was telling him about all the housework I couldn't do, and he said "if you don't text me by x time and tell me that I absolutely am not allowed to, I'm coming over and doing your dishes." The switch from men's default "I will if you ask me" to "I will if you don't ask me not to" is simple but really powerful in terms of where it sites the responsibility.
posted by babelfish at 9:14 AM on July 28, 2015 [43 favorites]
The hubs and I have been talking about this thread ever since I started really reading it (and being somewhat caught up on it!), and our communication style lead to this conversation:
Him: [concerned about my health] So, if you really need to make those dental appointments, please do so.
Me: [concerned about our finances because he earns way more money than I do right now and his co-worker who had a major project but had to leave it in my hubs' hands is out of the country for three weeks so he's going to be majorly stressed out for four weeks] Yeah, but what's our billing situation right now? I know we have some high interest credit balances you want to pay down first.
Him: No really, go ahead and make those appointments. I'll make it work.
Me: When you say "Make it work" I'm picturing you saying it like Tim Gunn, and that means something that involves stress and I don't want you to be annoyed at me later down the road when it comes time to pay the medical bills.
Him: No, really, I mean it. I don't understand how you're making it out to be a larger thing than it is.
Me: I just don't want you to be angry and stressed about finances.
Him: I totally understand. Thank you for being concerned. Now, go make those appointments.
And I did!
posted by TrishaLynn at 9:15 AM on July 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
Him: [concerned about my health] So, if you really need to make those dental appointments, please do so.
Me: [concerned about our finances because he earns way more money than I do right now and his co-worker who had a major project but had to leave it in my hubs' hands is out of the country for three weeks so he's going to be majorly stressed out for four weeks] Yeah, but what's our billing situation right now? I know we have some high interest credit balances you want to pay down first.
Him: No really, go ahead and make those appointments. I'll make it work.
Me: When you say "Make it work" I'm picturing you saying it like Tim Gunn, and that means something that involves stress and I don't want you to be annoyed at me later down the road when it comes time to pay the medical bills.
Him: No, really, I mean it. I don't understand how you're making it out to be a larger thing than it is.
Me: I just don't want you to be angry and stressed about finances.
Him: I totally understand. Thank you for being concerned. Now, go make those appointments.
And I did!
posted by TrishaLynn at 9:15 AM on July 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
I just thought about at least three other adult men in my life who deal with the death of pets in the same way.
I think actually the death-of-pets thing for men is somewhat deeper than is immediately obvious. Pets don't require much emotional labor, but they give back emotional labor. Men, in particular, who don't have close friendships, tend to pour their heart out to them. I can't tell you the amount of men I've heard say 'My childhood dog was the only thing I really loved back then.' Dogs are the last things that love them like that - because they don't know how to maintain relationships and so they'll never be close to anything again. What they are mourning is less the death of the pet and more I think the death of someone who will love them regardless of how much effort they put out.
posted by corb at 9:37 AM on July 28, 2015 [40 favorites]
I think actually the death-of-pets thing for men is somewhat deeper than is immediately obvious. Pets don't require much emotional labor, but they give back emotional labor. Men, in particular, who don't have close friendships, tend to pour their heart out to them. I can't tell you the amount of men I've heard say 'My childhood dog was the only thing I really loved back then.' Dogs are the last things that love them like that - because they don't know how to maintain relationships and so they'll never be close to anything again. What they are mourning is less the death of the pet and more I think the death of someone who will love them regardless of how much effort they put out.
posted by corb at 9:37 AM on July 28, 2015 [40 favorites]
I've been debating whether to add this here or to the meta thread, but I want to say thank you to all the fantastic people that reached out (to me and to others!) to make sure everyone is okay. It's the most amazing thing, and the most amazing feeling.
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:19 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:19 AM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
corb, that's really interesting re: men loving dogs because of the dog's limitless love, I had been wondering if the effect goes the other way. Like others in this thread, for me it feels good to do emotional labor when I can do it well and when it is appreciated. I enjoy investing my time into choosing the perfect gift and hearing the recipient be overjoyed by it. In other words, my feeling good isn't just because the recipient is pleased; it is the combination of my effort with their enjoyment that makes it very rewarding for me, and it genuinely deepens the relationship.
I wonder if men, who often can do this give-and-receive with dogs when they are the dog's primary caregiver, are missing out on these kinds of relationships with people.
(Not, er, that men should always treat their partners like they treat their dogs...)
posted by nicodine at 10:19 AM on July 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
I wonder if men, who often can do this give-and-receive with dogs when they are the dog's primary caregiver, are missing out on these kinds of relationships with people.
(Not, er, that men should always treat their partners like they treat their dogs...)
posted by nicodine at 10:19 AM on July 28, 2015 [6 favorites]
But on the actual article - I have a lot of really complicated feels on this, as someone who's pretty independent in a lot of ways, but is only one generation removed from women raised and grown in super traditional environments.
I was always taught how to do this emotional labor - sometimes very explicitly - from, I don't know, 5 or so? But in part because of the stereotypical gender roles I had not yet learned to question, it always felt a bit like it /was/ paid labor. I mean, maybe that's just how my mother and grandmother talked about it, but they always made it clear that you, being any female, would have to do these things once you were married, but your husband would support you and keep you in style and buy you all the things that you would want and that emotional labor stuff would be the work you did in return for your support wages. If you worked at something, as long as it didn't take away from family time, that money would be purely your money, not family money, and you could bet it on black or buy 500 pairs of shoes or tear it into tiny pieces and throw it in the air or whatever the fuck you wanted with it, because it was understood your emotional labor was valued and so you didn't have to work a 9-5.
I'm glad we as a society are tearing down those gender roles so that women who want to work and be their own person can do so without getting the stink eye and everyone assuming they are a terrible mother/wife/Unnatural Creature or whatever the fuck shitty people think or thought about women working amd being independent. But one thing I honestly feel I've noticed about even so-called 'feminist' men is that even if we are working at a job, just like them, they still want us to do that other work, that emotional labor, that previously, in a sense, we were getting paid for. They're like 'yay, equality, now you can have a job and more income can come into the household, but dammit you better also be my social secretary! Also host marvellous parties that I just have to grill meat at, and keep track of how many pairs of matched socks are in my drawer.' I want to make it clear, in case douchebros are reading this: this is not the fault of feminism, this is because shitty patriarchal guys took even feminist successes and tried to find a way to make them work for the patriarchy.
Sorry for the double post, I just have SO MANY FEELS
posted by corb at 10:20 AM on July 28, 2015 [75 favorites]
I was always taught how to do this emotional labor - sometimes very explicitly - from, I don't know, 5 or so? But in part because of the stereotypical gender roles I had not yet learned to question, it always felt a bit like it /was/ paid labor. I mean, maybe that's just how my mother and grandmother talked about it, but they always made it clear that you, being any female, would have to do these things once you were married, but your husband would support you and keep you in style and buy you all the things that you would want and that emotional labor stuff would be the work you did in return for your support wages. If you worked at something, as long as it didn't take away from family time, that money would be purely your money, not family money, and you could bet it on black or buy 500 pairs of shoes or tear it into tiny pieces and throw it in the air or whatever the fuck you wanted with it, because it was understood your emotional labor was valued and so you didn't have to work a 9-5.
I'm glad we as a society are tearing down those gender roles so that women who want to work and be their own person can do so without getting the stink eye and everyone assuming they are a terrible mother/wife/Unnatural Creature or whatever the fuck shitty people think or thought about women working amd being independent. But one thing I honestly feel I've noticed about even so-called 'feminist' men is that even if we are working at a job, just like them, they still want us to do that other work, that emotional labor, that previously, in a sense, we were getting paid for. They're like 'yay, equality, now you can have a job and more income can come into the household, but dammit you better also be my social secretary! Also host marvellous parties that I just have to grill meat at, and keep track of how many pairs of matched socks are in my drawer.' I want to make it clear, in case douchebros are reading this: this is not the fault of feminism, this is because shitty patriarchal guys took even feminist successes and tried to find a way to make them work for the patriarchy.
Sorry for the double post, I just have SO MANY FEELS
posted by corb at 10:20 AM on July 28, 2015 [75 favorites]
Har! "Level 1 Crone."
posted by Don Pepino at 10:58 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 10:58 AM on July 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
But one thing I honestly feel I've noticed about even so-called 'feminist' men is that even if we are working at a job, just like them, they still want us to do that other work, that emotional labor, that previously, in a sense, we were getting paid for.
This is part of why it is viewed as or has become unpaid labor. Society is changing and most people do not see the whole social contract. One part changes but then people expect some other thing to continue cuz TRADITION or whatever. They do not think about all the pieces and how they fit together. I don't think the intent was to oppress women. Things are in flux and ...it's complicated.
posted by Michele in California at 10:58 AM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
This is part of why it is viewed as or has become unpaid labor. Society is changing and most people do not see the whole social contract. One part changes but then people expect some other thing to continue cuz TRADITION or whatever. They do not think about all the pieces and how they fit together. I don't think the intent was to oppress women. Things are in flux and ...it's complicated.
posted by Michele in California at 10:58 AM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
But one thing I honestly feel I've noticed about even so-called 'feminist' men is that even if we are working at a job, just like them, they still want us to do that other work, that emotional labor, that previously, in a sense, we were getting paid for.
If this monster thread gets distilled into something more accessible, this comment of corb's (the whole thing) has to be in it. And not way down here at the bottom, but up toward the top, so that people then have a framework for understanding the stories people are sharing.
Also, about the dogs. Holy shit yes. My husband loves our dogs. LOVES. Our lives basically revolve around them and he doesn't begrudge a single cent spent on them (many many thousands of dollars in vet bills this year). But, he loves them as in "loves to love" them. Loves to play with them. Loves to hike with them. Loves to snuggle with them. Loves to talk about them.
But I love them as in I bathe them, I feed them, I brush their teeth, I keep them brushed out, I notice when something is wrong with them and exhaustively research their health problems and implement the solutions, same with behavioral issues, I research and purchase all the stuff they need, I make sure the house and yard are safe for them, and I've taught them everything they know from not peeing in the house to tricks to dog sports. (Obviously I love to play with with them, hike with them, snuggle with them, talk about them too.) And I don't mind doing these things. To me, they're a large part of what makes the relationship rewarding. I don't think he's ever read a single thing online about one of their health issues, dog training, anything. With every health issue, I've discovered halfway through that he doesn't even understand what's going on, as in, what part of the body is affected.
If you asked him, I think he would say that's because I care more about these things and want to have the final say about them. But it's just circular logic, isn't it? Caring more about these things is the emotional labor, and because I've done that work, I'm in the best position to make decisions. Anyway, I like doing them. I'm not looking for him to do them. I only mind that he's so detached from what's going on and doesn't appreciate as work the things that I do.
Fascinating. Fascinating!
posted by HotToddy at 11:45 AM on July 28, 2015 [31 favorites]
If this monster thread gets distilled into something more accessible, this comment of corb's (the whole thing) has to be in it. And not way down here at the bottom, but up toward the top, so that people then have a framework for understanding the stories people are sharing.
Also, about the dogs. Holy shit yes. My husband loves our dogs. LOVES. Our lives basically revolve around them and he doesn't begrudge a single cent spent on them (many many thousands of dollars in vet bills this year). But, he loves them as in "loves to love" them. Loves to play with them. Loves to hike with them. Loves to snuggle with them. Loves to talk about them.
But I love them as in I bathe them, I feed them, I brush their teeth, I keep them brushed out, I notice when something is wrong with them and exhaustively research their health problems and implement the solutions, same with behavioral issues, I research and purchase all the stuff they need, I make sure the house and yard are safe for them, and I've taught them everything they know from not peeing in the house to tricks to dog sports. (Obviously I love to play with with them, hike with them, snuggle with them, talk about them too.) And I don't mind doing these things. To me, they're a large part of what makes the relationship rewarding. I don't think he's ever read a single thing online about one of their health issues, dog training, anything. With every health issue, I've discovered halfway through that he doesn't even understand what's going on, as in, what part of the body is affected.
If you asked him, I think he would say that's because I care more about these things and want to have the final say about them. But it's just circular logic, isn't it? Caring more about these things is the emotional labor, and because I've done that work, I'm in the best position to make decisions. Anyway, I like doing them. I'm not looking for him to do them. I only mind that he's so detached from what's going on and doesn't appreciate as work the things that I do.
Fascinating. Fascinating!
posted by HotToddy at 11:45 AM on July 28, 2015 [31 favorites]
My ex considered himself a feminist and he would probably say that he is fantastic at emotional labor, but after spending a few days reading this thread I am realizing why I felt so drained after 8 years of our relationship that I basically shut down:
1. He was in daily communication with his family members, but wanted basically nothing to do with my family, to the point where he still didn't know some of the names of my very close cousins after 10 years.
2. I did all the grocery shopping, cooking and meal planning up until the point he decided to become a vegan, when he started getting groceries for just himself.
3. When we started our week long honeymoon, I opened his suitcase and realized that he only packed enough for 3 days. I spent the first day of our honeymoon shopping for his clothes while he stayed in bed.
4. I had to communicate with him on his terms. I cooked, cleaned, shopped, did laundry, folded and put away clothes, visited with his family and remembered everyone's names, made sure he got up and got to work every morning, and even did some of his course work for his unsuccessful stab at an MBA. During this time he said he felt like I didn't love him because I did not tell him enough or give him enough hugs.
5. When he lost $60,000 on online poker, I comforted him and told him it was addiction and not his fault, and took $20,000 out of my 401k to help repay the debt. He never said thank you because he considered that OUR money.
I have been feeling like my marriage failing was really my fault because I was not good at communicating my needs or feelings, so reading all of your experiences and thoughts have been tremendously helpful at sorting out why I handled things the way I did.
posted by elvissa at 12:38 PM on July 28, 2015 [49 favorites]
1. He was in daily communication with his family members, but wanted basically nothing to do with my family, to the point where he still didn't know some of the names of my very close cousins after 10 years.
2. I did all the grocery shopping, cooking and meal planning up until the point he decided to become a vegan, when he started getting groceries for just himself.
3. When we started our week long honeymoon, I opened his suitcase and realized that he only packed enough for 3 days. I spent the first day of our honeymoon shopping for his clothes while he stayed in bed.
4. I had to communicate with him on his terms. I cooked, cleaned, shopped, did laundry, folded and put away clothes, visited with his family and remembered everyone's names, made sure he got up and got to work every morning, and even did some of his course work for his unsuccessful stab at an MBA. During this time he said he felt like I didn't love him because I did not tell him enough or give him enough hugs.
5. When he lost $60,000 on online poker, I comforted him and told him it was addiction and not his fault, and took $20,000 out of my 401k to help repay the debt. He never said thank you because he considered that OUR money.
I have been feeling like my marriage failing was really my fault because I was not good at communicating my needs or feelings, so reading all of your experiences and thoughts have been tremendously helpful at sorting out why I handled things the way I did.
posted by elvissa at 12:38 PM on July 28, 2015 [49 favorites]
elvissa, that's horrible. I'm so sorry you had to live like that for so long. And I'm so glad that you see now how much you did, and how little he did.
I'll do your round of chores on Crone Island for a few weeks. You deserve a break. And some tacos.
posted by guster4lovers at 2:43 PM on July 28, 2015 [19 favorites]
I'll do your round of chores on Crone Island for a few weeks. You deserve a break. And some tacos.
posted by guster4lovers at 2:43 PM on July 28, 2015 [19 favorites]
I always thought that the 'losing desire' thing is just what happens or that it was always me having some sort of issue with some sort of hang-up.... It makes total sense, especially now that I'm older and think of things that I do find sexy and a turn ons. Most have to do with some sort of compentency related to so much emotional labor skills that have been brought up in this thread.
Oh god, and it actually makes the shitty pushy 'why don't you want to have sex' behavior of some guys even more obnoxious, because the answer is straight up 'your actions make you into a thing I have to do work on rather than work with; a child rather than an equal partner. And that is just not sexy.' And then think of every shitty 'har de har har' joke about how marriage means the sex will die or whatever. Maybe! Maybe! But maybe because YOU MAKE IT, shitty dudes, by demanding your wife act exactly like your mother did.
If you want to have super-hot-for-you sexings, try leveling up and demonstrating competence and maybe, dare I say it, learn how to talk to other humans as though they had value?
posted by corb at 2:45 PM on July 28, 2015 [79 favorites]
Oh god, and it actually makes the shitty pushy 'why don't you want to have sex' behavior of some guys even more obnoxious, because the answer is straight up 'your actions make you into a thing I have to do work on rather than work with; a child rather than an equal partner. And that is just not sexy.' And then think of every shitty 'har de har har' joke about how marriage means the sex will die or whatever. Maybe! Maybe! But maybe because YOU MAKE IT, shitty dudes, by demanding your wife act exactly like your mother did.
If you want to have super-hot-for-you sexings, try leveling up and demonstrating competence and maybe, dare I say it, learn how to talk to other humans as though they had value?
posted by corb at 2:45 PM on July 28, 2015 [79 favorites]
I'm glad we as a society are tearing down those gender roles so that women who want to work and be their own person can do so without getting the stink eye and everyone assuming they are a terrible mother/wife/Unnatural Creature
As a child-free lesbian I'm still an Unnatural Creature, I have to work, and I get the stink eye about not going home to a man and children, including frequently from other women. The idea of women working outside the home because we want to rather than because we have to is classist and heterosexist. I'm not trying to get on anyone's case here, just requesting that my fabulous fellow crones acknowledge that lots of us don't have a choice about working, and don't assume class privilege as a default.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:04 PM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
As a child-free lesbian I'm still an Unnatural Creature, I have to work, and I get the stink eye about not going home to a man and children, including frequently from other women. The idea of women working outside the home because we want to rather than because we have to is classist and heterosexist. I'm not trying to get on anyone's case here, just requesting that my fabulous fellow crones acknowledge that lots of us don't have a choice about working, and don't assume class privilege as a default.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:04 PM on July 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
i always found the "why can't we have sex, huh huh huh? what about now? what about now? what about now?" behavior to be almost identical to when i'd take my 3 year old nephew into a store and he wanted a matchbox car.
posted by nadawi at 3:05 PM on July 28, 2015 [34 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 3:05 PM on July 28, 2015 [34 favorites]
i always found the "why can't we have sex, huh huh huh? what about now? what about now? what about now?" behavior to be almost identical to when i'd take my 3 year old nephew into a store and he wanted a matchbox car.
Metafilter: My Vagina is Not a Matchbox Car
posted by guster4lovers at 3:26 PM on July 28, 2015 [52 favorites]
Metafilter: My Vagina is Not a Matchbox Car
posted by guster4lovers at 3:26 PM on July 28, 2015 [52 favorites]
The idea of women working outside the home because we want to rather than because we have to is classist and heterosexist.
Sorry, I absolutely did not mean it that way but I could see where it came off and apologize for being hurtful! I was mostly focusing on heterosexual pairings because I think that's where the majority of the shitty sexism from men around emotional labor comes in - the demanding of it, if that makes sense - not because other relationships don't exist or aren't important. I know the patriarchy is like Hydra, though, and reaches everywhere and touches everything, even relationships with women who have to exist in the world that is, not the world we want. I didn't mean to leave anyone out!
I am also sorry on your behalf that you get shitty treatment from other women for who you come home to, whether it be your partner or if you decided to just have a cat. That is bullshit. However, I'm pretty sure that stink eye does not, in fact, exist on Crone Island, and if we ever get there, I would like to offer you a delicious bowl of guacamole as partial compensation for the crap you have put up with. I am, sadly, shit at making margaritas.
posted by corb at 4:05 PM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sorry, I absolutely did not mean it that way but I could see where it came off and apologize for being hurtful! I was mostly focusing on heterosexual pairings because I think that's where the majority of the shitty sexism from men around emotional labor comes in - the demanding of it, if that makes sense - not because other relationships don't exist or aren't important. I know the patriarchy is like Hydra, though, and reaches everywhere and touches everything, even relationships with women who have to exist in the world that is, not the world we want. I didn't mean to leave anyone out!
I am also sorry on your behalf that you get shitty treatment from other women for who you come home to, whether it be your partner or if you decided to just have a cat. That is bullshit. However, I'm pretty sure that stink eye does not, in fact, exist on Crone Island, and if we ever get there, I would like to offer you a delicious bowl of guacamole as partial compensation for the crap you have put up with. I am, sadly, shit at making margaritas.
posted by corb at 4:05 PM on July 28, 2015 [8 favorites]
Corb, I totally get what you're saying and it's cool. For me as a queer woman, I do still get a lot of expectation of emotional labor since I'm not living in a lesbian separatist community. I've had male roommates, male friends, male relatives... a lot of people feel comfortable dumping expectations for emotional labor on me precisely because I don't have a partner and therefore I must have tons of free time to look after them and nothing better to do.
I've also had some demands for emotional labor that are about me being queer, like straight men wanting me to help them woo women, how to understand women well enough to get dates, questions about sex... as a woman who dates women, I'm considered an expert, but simultaneously a freak and a social outsider, so the idea of reciprocating by helping me get a date with a woman is obviously an unreasonable thing to for me to want, even from men who like bragging about how they have a lot of lesbian friends.
You can meet my cats if you bring guacamole. I will, as offered above, make tea.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:23 PM on July 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
I've also had some demands for emotional labor that are about me being queer, like straight men wanting me to help them woo women, how to understand women well enough to get dates, questions about sex... as a woman who dates women, I'm considered an expert, but simultaneously a freak and a social outsider, so the idea of reciprocating by helping me get a date with a woman is obviously an unreasonable thing to for me to want, even from men who like bragging about how they have a lot of lesbian friends.
You can meet my cats if you bring guacamole. I will, as offered above, make tea.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:23 PM on July 28, 2015 [13 favorites]
Holy shit, I made it to the end of the thread.
This has been absolutely revelatory on a number of levels: both in terms of my past, present and future relationships, and in terms of second-order stuff that I now feel like I understand much better. I've been writing down my thoughts on tumblr as I have them, because I didn't want to skip any comments, but now that I'm here I think the only really useful thing I have to add is this: I think I now have a better understanding of why so many people in positions of power get so damn defensive when they are told they have caused harm or hurt. Fixing damage you have caused is work. It can be hard, and complicated. It is infinitely easier to redirect the focus back onto your own bruised feelings, and be soothed.
Also, I am moderately proud of this post on why Tumblr's fantasy man is a bearded, omnicompetent-yet-sensitive forest ranger who smells like cedar shavings and Old Spice.
posted by nonasuch at 7:07 PM on July 28, 2015 [15 favorites]
This has been absolutely revelatory on a number of levels: both in terms of my past, present and future relationships, and in terms of second-order stuff that I now feel like I understand much better. I've been writing down my thoughts on tumblr as I have them, because I didn't want to skip any comments, but now that I'm here I think the only really useful thing I have to add is this: I think I now have a better understanding of why so many people in positions of power get so damn defensive when they are told they have caused harm or hurt. Fixing damage you have caused is work. It can be hard, and complicated. It is infinitely easier to redirect the focus back onto your own bruised feelings, and be soothed.
Also, I am moderately proud of this post on why Tumblr's fantasy man is a bearded, omnicompetent-yet-sensitive forest ranger who smells like cedar shavings and Old Spice.
posted by nonasuch at 7:07 PM on July 28, 2015 [15 favorites]
I've been dumping bits and pieces of my thoughts about this thread on Facebook on and off. It's the one year anniversary of my quitting a project I threw way too much emotional labor into for nothing, and this thread's made me realize I have a lot more residual feelings about that than I thought. Things came to a head to days ago, and I ended up posting a judiciously-filtered rant about how mad I am at having poured so much into institutions and relationships that gave me somlittle back over the years.
One of my partners just texted me, completely unprompted, to say "Yout post on emotional labor has me thinking a lot, and I appreciate it." I could almost cry. Score one more for the crones.
posted by ActionPopulated at 7:19 PM on July 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
One of my partners just texted me, completely unprompted, to say "Yout post on emotional labor has me thinking a lot, and I appreciate it." I could almost cry. Score one more for the crones.
posted by ActionPopulated at 7:19 PM on July 28, 2015 [11 favorites]
I wrote on my work's whiteboard: "Life is too short to be a bonsai human for someone else's toleration and convenience." A little bit of MeFi to get me through the day.
posted by sweetmarie at 7:36 PM on July 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
posted by sweetmarie at 7:36 PM on July 28, 2015 [30 favorites]
As my cat was showering me with affection this morning I thought, this really isn't bloody hard. Our pets understand how to give us affection and we're different species. Sure, people always dismiss animal affection - especially from cats - as meaningless, saying they only do it because we feed them, provide them with nice places to sleep, etc. But how is that much different from babies, from partners?
None of us is perfectly altruistic. Of course it is easier to feel love and affection towards someone who does something nice for you. And it is easier to do nice things for the people (and animals) who show you love and affection. Feedback loop. Show a bit of love and affection, do a few things that you know the other person cares about, even if you don't, because not only is it nice for that person, it's nice for you. If my 8-month-old kitty can understand this, why do so many humans miss this part?
posted by Athanassiel at 8:07 PM on July 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
None of us is perfectly altruistic. Of course it is easier to feel love and affection towards someone who does something nice for you. And it is easier to do nice things for the people (and animals) who show you love and affection. Feedback loop. Show a bit of love and affection, do a few things that you know the other person cares about, even if you don't, because not only is it nice for that person, it's nice for you. If my 8-month-old kitty can understand this, why do so many humans miss this part?
posted by Athanassiel at 8:07 PM on July 28, 2015 [12 favorites]
corb: one thing I honestly feel I've noticed about even so-called 'feminist' men is that even if we are working at a job, just like them, they still want us to do that other work, that emotional labor, that previously, in a sense, we were getting paid for.
HotToddy: If this monster thread gets distilled into something more accessible, this comment of corb's (the whole thing) has to be in it. And not way down here at the bottom, but up toward the top, so that people then have a framework for understanding the stories people are sharing.
Agreed. This is a fundamental point that needs to be made early on.
When I was an adolescent back in the 1980s, I remember thinking to myself: this 9-to-5-until-you're-65 thing isn't for me. I don't want a job! I want to devote my life to the arts. I want to write. And do dance choreography. And I love to practice the arts of the home and hearth, too. I love organising, decorating, serving tea, designing emotionally evocative spaces through the creative use of visual, olfactory, and auditory elements...I even enjoy house cleaning. It's satisfying work, especially when I can do it under my own auspices.
Even as a budding feminist, at some level I decided that getting married young - to a man who (ostensibly) valued my artistic and emotional labour and was willing to support me while I took care of the home and learned my crafts - would be a better way to go than spending 40+ hours a week at a poorly paid service job and coming home too tired to do anything creative. So we entered into a kind of half-baked spousal-arts-patron agreement. Yes, of course I knew there was always the risk that we'd split, but my idea was that I'd work part-time, get a college degree, save up money, and have a couple of backup plans just in case that ever came to pass.
But I'm now middle-aged and twice-divorced (and have three baccalaureate degrees), and even my backup plans - well-conceived and well-executed though they were at the time - did not work out the way I had hoped. I ended up doing almost all the emotional labour, losing both my marriages anyway, AND working a job I never wanted. And as a result, my creative life has had to be pushed into the margins of my life, to my great dismay. In my files I have reams and reams of unpublished writing, including 25 years' worth of short fiction, journal writings, correspondence, and essays, plus a half-finished non-fiction book manuscript. And I won't even get into the choreography notes and everything else. And if I try to tackle my terror about what will happen to me when I get old...no, I'd better not go there right now. It's hard enough to write this comment as it is. Let's just say I'm glad I live in a state where assisted suicide is legal.
I am reminded of something I read in Monica Sjöö & Barbara Mor's book The Great Cosmic Mother: Rediscovering the Religion of the Earth (pp. 402-403, bold emphasis mine):
"The average American woman works almost twice the hours, and receives a little more than half the pay, of the average American man...In lieu of payment, the average white middle-class American homemaker is patted on the head and praised for her "priceless work," a woman's work is so important it can't have a price tag put on it. This baloney comes from men who have deliberately constructed a world in which all power over life and death is a function of money, of ascertainable wealth, period. A world of male power that is economically established on the fact of women's unpaid labour. But millions of married women accept this baloney, and the patronising head-pats, because they see very clearly that unpaid labour within a marriage is still better than most of the alternatives. American mainstream feminism's offer of "equality within the system" becomes meaningless within a rotten system."
Eventually it dawned on me that the entire fucking system is supported by women's unpaid emotional labour. Marriage is no escape. Being child-free is no escape. Jobs are no escape. The closest thing to an escape, it seems, is to avoid dating men and live out the rest of my days as a Pagan nun. But it's not a true escape, because no matter how simply I live, I still have to have a job, women still get paid less than men and do the lion's share of emotional labour, and my creative life gets pushed into the margins.
Nonetheless, as I said upthread, I am married to my creative life. Thanks to this beautiful and heart-breaking thread, my consciousness has been raised, and I now declare myself a conscientious objector to the unpaid-unreciprocated-emotional-labour paradigm. For the rest of my days, as much as possible, whatever energy I have left after my day job will be devoted to my creative work.
posted by velvet winter at 8:09 PM on July 28, 2015 [52 favorites]
HotToddy: If this monster thread gets distilled into something more accessible, this comment of corb's (the whole thing) has to be in it. And not way down here at the bottom, but up toward the top, so that people then have a framework for understanding the stories people are sharing.
Agreed. This is a fundamental point that needs to be made early on.
When I was an adolescent back in the 1980s, I remember thinking to myself: this 9-to-5-until-you're-65 thing isn't for me. I don't want a job! I want to devote my life to the arts. I want to write. And do dance choreography. And I love to practice the arts of the home and hearth, too. I love organising, decorating, serving tea, designing emotionally evocative spaces through the creative use of visual, olfactory, and auditory elements...I even enjoy house cleaning. It's satisfying work, especially when I can do it under my own auspices.
Even as a budding feminist, at some level I decided that getting married young - to a man who (ostensibly) valued my artistic and emotional labour and was willing to support me while I took care of the home and learned my crafts - would be a better way to go than spending 40+ hours a week at a poorly paid service job and coming home too tired to do anything creative. So we entered into a kind of half-baked spousal-arts-patron agreement. Yes, of course I knew there was always the risk that we'd split, but my idea was that I'd work part-time, get a college degree, save up money, and have a couple of backup plans just in case that ever came to pass.
But I'm now middle-aged and twice-divorced (and have three baccalaureate degrees), and even my backup plans - well-conceived and well-executed though they were at the time - did not work out the way I had hoped. I ended up doing almost all the emotional labour, losing both my marriages anyway, AND working a job I never wanted. And as a result, my creative life has had to be pushed into the margins of my life, to my great dismay. In my files I have reams and reams of unpublished writing, including 25 years' worth of short fiction, journal writings, correspondence, and essays, plus a half-finished non-fiction book manuscript. And I won't even get into the choreography notes and everything else. And if I try to tackle my terror about what will happen to me when I get old...no, I'd better not go there right now. It's hard enough to write this comment as it is. Let's just say I'm glad I live in a state where assisted suicide is legal.
I am reminded of something I read in Monica Sjöö & Barbara Mor's book The Great Cosmic Mother: Rediscovering the Religion of the Earth (pp. 402-403, bold emphasis mine):
"The average American woman works almost twice the hours, and receives a little more than half the pay, of the average American man...In lieu of payment, the average white middle-class American homemaker is patted on the head and praised for her "priceless work," a woman's work is so important it can't have a price tag put on it. This baloney comes from men who have deliberately constructed a world in which all power over life and death is a function of money, of ascertainable wealth, period. A world of male power that is economically established on the fact of women's unpaid labour. But millions of married women accept this baloney, and the patronising head-pats, because they see very clearly that unpaid labour within a marriage is still better than most of the alternatives. American mainstream feminism's offer of "equality within the system" becomes meaningless within a rotten system."
Eventually it dawned on me that the entire fucking system is supported by women's unpaid emotional labour. Marriage is no escape. Being child-free is no escape. Jobs are no escape. The closest thing to an escape, it seems, is to avoid dating men and live out the rest of my days as a Pagan nun. But it's not a true escape, because no matter how simply I live, I still have to have a job, women still get paid less than men and do the lion's share of emotional labour, and my creative life gets pushed into the margins.
Nonetheless, as I said upthread, I am married to my creative life. Thanks to this beautiful and heart-breaking thread, my consciousness has been raised, and I now declare myself a conscientious objector to the unpaid-unreciprocated-emotional-labour paradigm. For the rest of my days, as much as possible, whatever energy I have left after my day job will be devoted to my creative work.
posted by velvet winter at 8:09 PM on July 28, 2015 [52 favorites]
It's only taken me two weeks to catch up to the end of the thread. I've been furiously nodding and crying and nodding again and seeing the world through a totally different lens and wishing we were all in some comfy room with pillows scattered all over the floor and endless bottles of wine so I could see and hug and converse in real time with each and every one of you since this was first put on the front page. Thank you to every one of you who shared, supported, advised, and helped make sense of these things I couldn't even explain to myself properly until now.
I shared this with my mother, my realization that my frustration with my SO of 3 years isn't just me being a crazy nag, but just me needing a little equal support as a partner in this life we're making for ourselves. My mother's response: that's just the way it is, it's always been that way, because men. I wanted to shake her and tell her it doesn't have to be, but for her it always has been. Which makes me sad.
I shared this with my SO, who first asked me to give him the "readers digest version" of this thread. It took a lot not to laugh or start throwing things because he hadn't yet read it so obviously he didn't understand the irony of asking me to do the emotional labor of distilling 1000+ comments of incredible content into some Cliffs Notes version that he could easily digest so he didn't have to wade through it all. I left him with it, and he told me he eventually abandoned it because "it was hard to read, a lot of 'you're a bad person' stuff." I can understand that being an initial visceral reaction, feeling attacked. But I hope he comes back to it and sees it from the perspective of other people, like the emotional laborers (his mother, sister, aunts, exes, and now me) who have been carrying him for most of his life. And maybe takes it as constructive criticism instead of interpreting it as an attack.
I will say that that same evening he made the unprompted effort to reheat leftovers for me for dinner when I got home late so I wasn't solely responsible for feeding the two of us as per usual. And he cleaned the litter box. And poured me bourbon. (I'll overlook for now the fact that he gave me cute puppy eyes when he said "I cleaned the cat poop" like he wanted a pat on the head. The point is it got done, and I got bourbon). Today he swept AND mopped the kitchen floor because it needed to be done - on his own, with no prompting from me. And agreed he's got dinner duty Thursday night (which he keeps threatening will be cheddar dogs but I really don't care what it is as long as I don't have to think about it or make it). Baby steps.
He's wonderful, truly, in so many ways. But also exhausting in ways he has no idea about. He also knows we're almost out of toilet paper and I'm holding out to see if he'll actually go out and buy it before we actually run out or if that's going to fall to me again. And it pisses me off that I have a secret stash in my car because I know what's going to happen...
Another person saying thank you to each and every one of you here for changing my life. In baby steps so far, but they're still steps.
posted by danapiper at 8:31 PM on July 28, 2015 [38 favorites]
I shared this with my mother, my realization that my frustration with my SO of 3 years isn't just me being a crazy nag, but just me needing a little equal support as a partner in this life we're making for ourselves. My mother's response: that's just the way it is, it's always been that way, because men. I wanted to shake her and tell her it doesn't have to be, but for her it always has been. Which makes me sad.
I shared this with my SO, who first asked me to give him the "readers digest version" of this thread. It took a lot not to laugh or start throwing things because he hadn't yet read it so obviously he didn't understand the irony of asking me to do the emotional labor of distilling 1000+ comments of incredible content into some Cliffs Notes version that he could easily digest so he didn't have to wade through it all. I left him with it, and he told me he eventually abandoned it because "it was hard to read, a lot of 'you're a bad person' stuff." I can understand that being an initial visceral reaction, feeling attacked. But I hope he comes back to it and sees it from the perspective of other people, like the emotional laborers (his mother, sister, aunts, exes, and now me) who have been carrying him for most of his life. And maybe takes it as constructive criticism instead of interpreting it as an attack.
I will say that that same evening he made the unprompted effort to reheat leftovers for me for dinner when I got home late so I wasn't solely responsible for feeding the two of us as per usual. And he cleaned the litter box. And poured me bourbon. (I'll overlook for now the fact that he gave me cute puppy eyes when he said "I cleaned the cat poop" like he wanted a pat on the head. The point is it got done, and I got bourbon). Today he swept AND mopped the kitchen floor because it needed to be done - on his own, with no prompting from me. And agreed he's got dinner duty Thursday night (which he keeps threatening will be cheddar dogs but I really don't care what it is as long as I don't have to think about it or make it). Baby steps.
He's wonderful, truly, in so many ways. But also exhausting in ways he has no idea about. He also knows we're almost out of toilet paper and I'm holding out to see if he'll actually go out and buy it before we actually run out or if that's going to fall to me again. And it pisses me off that I have a secret stash in my car because I know what's going to happen...
Another person saying thank you to each and every one of you here for changing my life. In baby steps so far, but they're still steps.
posted by danapiper at 8:31 PM on July 28, 2015 [38 favorites]
And it pisses me off that I have a secret stash in my car because I know what's going to happen...
The evil imp in me suggests that, if it becomes necessary, you use your own toilet paper, and keep it stashed in the car when you're not at home, and hidden when you are.
posted by jaguar at 8:53 PM on July 28, 2015 [34 favorites]
The evil imp in me suggests that, if it becomes necessary, you use your own toilet paper, and keep it stashed in the car when you're not at home, and hidden when you are.
posted by jaguar at 8:53 PM on July 28, 2015 [34 favorites]
I'm still reading through this amazing thread in spurts, but since I just got to easter queen's observation on the different ways that men and women tend to comment in threads on feminism, I just wanted to lodge my own observation that the concept of emotional labor works intersectionally far beyond just male-female power dynamics. Actually, I'm really grateful to this thread because it helped me articulate for myself some of the really problematic dynamics around race, for instance. Like on this site, sometimes we have discussions about race and then someone will say something racist - and almost unevitably, a white person will respond with rage, dismissiveness, or basically an abrupt "no, you're wrong, and you're racist, and you feel bad." As a PoC, this makes me feel terribly anxious even though the white person is purportedly "on my side" - and I now realize it's because they've dumped a bunch of emotional labor on me. Like, now that the white person has attacked the person making racist statements, it's my job to soothe people so the thread can return to its tone of normalcy instead of descending into a back-and-forth that basically eats up all of the oxygen in the thread for discussion. It's my job to explain racism comprehensively because the white person never bothered to respond with anything but contempt. It's my job to deal with the hostility that rises as a consequence of the interaction as PoC unevitably get caught in the crossfire.
I think this can be universalized to a lot of discussions on power dynamics. Like, basically what privileged people are doing is that they're waltzing in and taking a shit in the thread and then looking at me and expecting me to praise them because they "defended me" and "are on my side". If I dare call them out, they'll complain that I'm shooting and chasing away my own allies. So I keep quiet and do all of the emotional labor while thinking to myself "it's my job to thanklessly clean this shit up."
posted by Conspire at 11:02 PM on July 28, 2015 [89 favorites]
I think this can be universalized to a lot of discussions on power dynamics. Like, basically what privileged people are doing is that they're waltzing in and taking a shit in the thread and then looking at me and expecting me to praise them because they "defended me" and "are on my side". If I dare call them out, they'll complain that I'm shooting and chasing away my own allies. So I keep quiet and do all of the emotional labor while thinking to myself "it's my job to thanklessly clean this shit up."
posted by Conspire at 11:02 PM on July 28, 2015 [89 favorites]
And yeah, I've also noticed that at least 9 out of 10 times, even when it's on race or sexual orientation or whatever, it's always going to be a man expressing rage and contempt rather a woman. The discussion in this thread explains a lot about this to me.
posted by Conspire at 11:08 PM on July 28, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by Conspire at 11:08 PM on July 28, 2015 [26 favorites]
That's good to know, Conspire. I gotta say, the concepts of intersectionality and the kyriarchy have helped me be better about stuff like that (I hope ::crosses fingers::). As a feminist, how do I want men to behave? Ok, so that's what I've gotta do as a cishet, white, able-bodied person when the situation is similar. Mostly shut up and listen, then act on what I've heard.
And yeah, isn't that what emotional labour is? Paying attention to the needs of others, and trying to smooth their path where possible?
posted by harriet vane at 12:16 AM on July 29, 2015 [10 favorites]
And yeah, isn't that what emotional labour is? Paying attention to the needs of others, and trying to smooth their path where possible?
posted by harriet vane at 12:16 AM on July 29, 2015 [10 favorites]
if I try to tackle my terror about what will happen to me when I get old...no, I'd better not go there right now.
Yep. I have a bad back and it's playing up really badly at the minute. My partner is a dote and he's been totally taking care of me. But he is 19 years older than me, and I have no kids. So the occasional jokey thing I say to him - "Who's going to to take care of me after you're gone?" - feels very real at the minute. Again, this thread made me realise that if I had kids it would be the girl who would be expected to look after me, and as I just have nieces I'm never going to expect them to step up with the emotional labour of caring for an elderly auntie, because I'm sure no one would expect it of my (to be fair, hypothetical) nephews. So my future is on my mind in a not rosy-looking way. I swear there was a minute where I genuinely thought "It's ok, I'll go to Crone Island" before having to remind myself it's a state of mind and not an actual place! (But if we could maybe set up a Kickstarter to buy an actual uninhabited island I bet we'd raise so much money from women everywhere...I'll bring the gin.)
posted by billiebee at 1:42 AM on July 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yep. I have a bad back and it's playing up really badly at the minute. My partner is a dote and he's been totally taking care of me. But he is 19 years older than me, and I have no kids. So the occasional jokey thing I say to him - "Who's going to to take care of me after you're gone?" - feels very real at the minute. Again, this thread made me realise that if I had kids it would be the girl who would be expected to look after me, and as I just have nieces I'm never going to expect them to step up with the emotional labour of caring for an elderly auntie, because I'm sure no one would expect it of my (to be fair, hypothetical) nephews. So my future is on my mind in a not rosy-looking way. I swear there was a minute where I genuinely thought "It's ok, I'll go to Crone Island" before having to remind myself it's a state of mind and not an actual place! (But if we could maybe set up a Kickstarter to buy an actual uninhabited island I bet we'd raise so much money from women everywhere...I'll bring the gin.)
posted by billiebee at 1:42 AM on July 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
What's to stop us having an annual Crone Island retreat at an actual island? I bet we get a lot of takers and enough people to rent out the whole place. Of course, I'm in Australia, and my Crone Island would probably be situated in Fiji or close to Bali...
posted by Jubey at 2:24 AM on July 29, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 2:24 AM on July 29, 2015 [9 favorites]
With this thread hidden in my hand, I went on a fourth date last night. I consciously did EL stroking of the sort I used to be famous for before I burnt out and withdrew almost completely but for a very good woman friend who's EL put me back together again.
Repeating what everyone has said, the language and frameworks made visible in this thread empower one with a strategic tool to be tactically used. What is powerful is the awareness.
While I didn't bring up the actual topic of this thread, I did talk about intangibles that normally wouldn't have given a thought to, to explore his thinking. One thing he said struck me, something about beiing a thinker and introspective and thus feeling more secure about his decisions - being willing to be different from the groupthink - because he trusted himself.
That insight brought me back here today with the nugget to share and explore further with you all - what is the role that trust, and trusting ourselves, first, have to play the context of these conversations, and, how much of difference does it make to me trusting him more because he trusts himself?
*wanders off to ponder*
posted by infini at 4:11 AM on July 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
Repeating what everyone has said, the language and frameworks made visible in this thread empower one with a strategic tool to be tactically used. What is powerful is the awareness.
While I didn't bring up the actual topic of this thread, I did talk about intangibles that normally wouldn't have given a thought to, to explore his thinking. One thing he said struck me, something about beiing a thinker and introspective and thus feeling more secure about his decisions - being willing to be different from the groupthink - because he trusted himself.
That insight brought me back here today with the nugget to share and explore further with you all - what is the role that trust, and trusting ourselves, first, have to play the context of these conversations, and, how much of difference does it make to me trusting him more because he trusts himself?
*wanders off to ponder*
posted by infini at 4:11 AM on July 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
The evil imp in me suggests that, if it becomes necessary, you use your own toilet paper, and keep it stashed in the car when you're not at home, and hidden when you are.
It's been amusing me to no end until it depresses me how many suggested solutions, or stirred up memories of things i myself have had to do when i was the only person in the house who would deal with stuff like this, also apply to... being roommates with college aged men. I'd eventually snap and just stop doing 80-100% of the work and buying everything... and stuff like this would happen.
These are grown ass adult dudes being discussed here in which you have to think about the same games of brinksmanship you would with 18 year olds who have never lived away from home and weren't made to do much when they were there.
War never changes, i suppose.
oh god, i'm having horrible flashbacks of the strategic TP stash buried deep within a cabinet in my room behind the bed frame... and hiding my nail clippers at work.
posted by emptythought at 4:43 AM on July 29, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's been amusing me to no end until it depresses me how many suggested solutions, or stirred up memories of things i myself have had to do when i was the only person in the house who would deal with stuff like this, also apply to... being roommates with college aged men. I'd eventually snap and just stop doing 80-100% of the work and buying everything... and stuff like this would happen.
These are grown ass adult dudes being discussed here in which you have to think about the same games of brinksmanship you would with 18 year olds who have never lived away from home and weren't made to do much when they were there.
War never changes, i suppose.
oh god, i'm having horrible flashbacks of the strategic TP stash buried deep within a cabinet in my room behind the bed frame... and hiding my nail clippers at work.
posted by emptythought at 4:43 AM on July 29, 2015 [18 favorites]
At work, they just proposed putting a general-use printer right outside my office. I immediately realized that every user would expect me to show them how to work it, respond when it was out of paper or toner, and know how to clear jams. (I'm already apparently responsible for knowing if my (male) colleagues are in, where they are, and when they'll be back.)
So I went ahead and said, "I'm not wild about the idea... I suspect that, because my office is right next to the printer and I'm woman, users are going to expect me to answer all their questions about it. What about this other convenient and currently-unused location that's not right next to anyone's office?" And they said, great idea! So, gold star for me, and thanks to this thread for helping me to anticipate the problem and giving me the impetus to articulate exactly why I was concerned.
(I told another female colleague about it, and she said darkly, "They would all ask to borrow your stapler." )
posted by BrashTech at 5:49 AM on July 29, 2015 [89 favorites]
So I went ahead and said, "I'm not wild about the idea... I suspect that, because my office is right next to the printer and I'm woman, users are going to expect me to answer all their questions about it. What about this other convenient and currently-unused location that's not right next to anyone's office?" And they said, great idea! So, gold star for me, and thanks to this thread for helping me to anticipate the problem and giving me the impetus to articulate exactly why I was concerned.
(I told another female colleague about it, and she said darkly, "They would all ask to borrow your stapler." )
posted by BrashTech at 5:49 AM on July 29, 2015 [89 favorites]
You are 100% correct. I have a colleague whose desk was next to the printer in our old office and, despite being equal pay grade to me and at the same position - which is to say, not at all involved with IT or equipment support- ,spent a good chunk of her day daily responding to requests for help with the printer. It was insane. Good call.
posted by Miko at 6:10 AM on July 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 6:10 AM on July 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
You know how men talk about PMS as this miserable, barely survivable time when you have to watch what you say, be careful not to make too much noise, swallow your real thoughts, make constant concessions to avoid conflict, and accept sudden outbursts of anger as commonplace? (aka things I unconsciously do around many men I know and love)
The masculine dread of PMS is basically “there are five days a month when the burden of emotional labor is reversed, and that brief (and incomplete) inversion is my personal eldritch horror, such that men discuss it with other men in hushed tones.”
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:13 AM on July 29, 2015 [109 favorites]
The masculine dread of PMS is basically “there are five days a month when the burden of emotional labor is reversed, and that brief (and incomplete) inversion is my personal eldritch horror, such that men discuss it with other men in hushed tones.”
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:13 AM on July 29, 2015 [109 favorites]
men have PMS ever day of the goddamn month.
yup - my hilarious and "very Boulder" male colleague calls it "pissy male syndrome" and agrees that it is endemic. He's one of the main reasons I've remained there as long as I have. He's also a tech writer, so not unfamiliar with the concept of emotional labor. Funnily enough he is the one with the cubicle nearest the printer for our department, and now that I think about it, everyone in the group pitches in to feed and maintain it, and there is exactly zero printer-related static in our team.
*also wanders off to ponder*
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:07 AM on July 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
yup - my hilarious and "very Boulder" male colleague calls it "pissy male syndrome" and agrees that it is endemic. He's one of the main reasons I've remained there as long as I have. He's also a tech writer, so not unfamiliar with the concept of emotional labor. Funnily enough he is the one with the cubicle nearest the printer for our department, and now that I think about it, everyone in the group pitches in to feed and maintain it, and there is exactly zero printer-related static in our team.
*also wanders off to ponder*
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:07 AM on July 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
I've been reading this thread incessantly and it's like something I've always known has finally been put into words. I still haven't reached the end and I have a lot of thinking to do, but had to comment when I read Don Pepino's comment:
Surely this one is the apex. I don't see how it could be topped:
"I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't"
When I was a teenager I had a boyfriend who used to say this exact thing, and I remember being charmed. And a few years later I found this poem and I cried when I remembered the scraps I had been so grateful for...
Flowers, by Wendy Cope
Some men never think of it.
You did. You’d come along
And say you’d nearly brought me flowers
But something had gone wrong. The shop was closed. Or you had doubts –
The sort that minds like ours
Dream up incessantly. You thought I might not want your flowers. It made me smile and hug you then.
Now I can only smile.
But, look, the flowers you nearly brought
Have lasted all this while.
posted by Dwardles at 7:43 AM on July 29, 2015 [54 favorites]
Surely this one is the apex. I don't see how it could be topped:
"I was going to stop and get you flowers but I didn't"
When I was a teenager I had a boyfriend who used to say this exact thing, and I remember being charmed. And a few years later I found this poem and I cried when I remembered the scraps I had been so grateful for...
Flowers, by Wendy Cope
Some men never think of it.
You did. You’d come along
And say you’d nearly brought me flowers
But something had gone wrong. The shop was closed. Or you had doubts –
The sort that minds like ours
Dream up incessantly. You thought I might not want your flowers. It made me smile and hug you then.
Now I can only smile.
But, look, the flowers you nearly brought
Have lasted all this while.
posted by Dwardles at 7:43 AM on July 29, 2015 [54 favorites]
Like on this site, sometimes we have discussions about race and then someone will say something racist - and almost unevitably, a white person will respond with rage, dismissiveness, or basically an abrupt "no, you're wrong, and you're racist, and you feel bad." As a PoC, this makes me feel terribly anxious even though the white person is purportedly "on my side" - and I now realize it's because they've dumped a bunch of emotional labor on me.
THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. I had it as kind of aside in the original article for space/focus reasons, but if I make a book out of this there needs to be at least a whole chapter on how this plays out in other marginalized groups besides women -- and how it can end up being doubly or triply exhausting for people at the intersection. It's bad enough to have to take on someone else's emotional work for them, but PoC often have to soothe people's feelings about the racist thing that person just said. Same for disabled people -- microaggressions are often followed up with an explicit or implicit plea, "please reassure me you're not offended and I'm still a good person." There's also the point brambles made upthread, where white women offload their excess emotional labor onto women of color (cf. the nannies and housekeepers who made it possible for white women to make some advances in the workplace). Crucial stuff. My Crone Island will be intersectional or it will be bullshit.
posted by babelfish at 8:31 AM on July 29, 2015 [44 favorites]
THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. I had it as kind of aside in the original article for space/focus reasons, but if I make a book out of this there needs to be at least a whole chapter on how this plays out in other marginalized groups besides women -- and how it can end up being doubly or triply exhausting for people at the intersection. It's bad enough to have to take on someone else's emotional work for them, but PoC often have to soothe people's feelings about the racist thing that person just said. Same for disabled people -- microaggressions are often followed up with an explicit or implicit plea, "please reassure me you're not offended and I'm still a good person." There's also the point brambles made upthread, where white women offload their excess emotional labor onto women of color (cf. the nannies and housekeepers who made it possible for white women to make some advances in the workplace). Crucial stuff. My Crone Island will be intersectional or it will be bullshit.
posted by babelfish at 8:31 AM on July 29, 2015 [44 favorites]
> I think I now have a better understanding of why so many people in positions of power get so damn defensive when they are told they have caused harm or hurt. Fixing damage you have caused is work. It can be hard, and complicated. It is infinitely easier to redirect the focus back onto your own bruised feelings, and be soothed.
Yup. The main perk of power is not the money (though that's great, and they always want more of it), it's never having to do human work, a big part of which is emotional labor. The powerful are happy to do inhuman work—staying up half the night figuring out new ways to shave a few cents off expenses (probably by screwing over the workers yet again) or evade those pesky regulations—but human work, treating other people as human beings and dealing with their problems, is hideously boring and counterproductive and something for their subordinates to deal with (their female subordinates, since they wouldn't think of asking another male to do it, it would be like expecting them to change diapers). The whole point of having power is to be able to say "Make it so!" and have everyone scurry around making it so, and never bother you with any problems they encounter.
This stuff always brings to my mind David R. Bunch's "Moderan" stories, which I'm pleased to see have been put online:
That is very human work indeed. Good for you!
posted by languagehat at 8:34 AM on July 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yup. The main perk of power is not the money (though that's great, and they always want more of it), it's never having to do human work, a big part of which is emotional labor. The powerful are happy to do inhuman work—staying up half the night figuring out new ways to shave a few cents off expenses (probably by screwing over the workers yet again) or evade those pesky regulations—but human work, treating other people as human beings and dealing with their problems, is hideously boring and counterproductive and something for their subordinates to deal with (their female subordinates, since they wouldn't think of asking another male to do it, it would be like expecting them to change diapers). The whole point of having power is to be able to say "Make it so!" and have everyone scurry around making it so, and never bother you with any problems they encounter.
This stuff always brings to my mind David R. Bunch's "Moderan" stories, which I'm pleased to see have been put online:
There was a multitude of tapes concerning the home life of the little clutter-people of Moderan, who were, many of them, not so fortunate as to have complete husband-wife segregation. Now, I, to tell you true was surprised to learn that Moderan, even at its height, was not entirely free of the burden of the rag-tag flesh people. Our man of Stronghold 10 deplored it, as you will see, yet he, finally, could not have found the strength, it appears, had he been possessed of the final say, to have made it different. This seems to me somehow to sum up the failure of both flesh-man before him and this new-metal man we have here. Neither could bring himself, finally, to rid himself of the eternal war that was in himself, the old old tug and fracas between what he naturally wanted to do (which was therefore "right" for him to do) and what he somehow had been led to believe he should do because of conscience, that foul unnatural and totally impossible contrived concept. It kept man, even this new-metal man, in such a constant dither of debate and "can't-do want to" frustration as to make him finally just a spotted, soggy mass of compromises and self-invented shames. Oh, it was not so noticeable in new-metal times, but it was there. As long as the foul softness of even one flesh-strip was there, this terrible immobilizing flaw of trying to be good, according to conscience, would be there.> For the rest of my days, as much as possible, whatever energy I have left after my day job will be devoted to my creative work.
That is very human work indeed. Good for you!
posted by languagehat at 8:34 AM on July 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
It occurs to me that the very act of phrasing comments in a nonconfrontational way, trying to be supportive or friendly even if disagreeing, is emotional labor, and the (typically male) style of belligerent "actually, you're completely wrong, and probably an idiot/bigot as well" comment is a striving for that form of power: I don't have to take your reactions into account one little bit, I can just spew out whatever's on my mind.
posted by languagehat at 8:47 AM on July 29, 2015 [52 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 8:47 AM on July 29, 2015 [52 favorites]
ugh babelfish and the more I'm aware of this, the more I realize there's also the "social strata" dumping that occurs in "mean girls / queen bee" situations and perfectly exemplifies why in the past I've felt so much impotent rage and resentment at how this dynamic plays out in e.g. work environments.
now that I'm aware of it, it's something else I can give myself permission to just smile and make appropriate noises whenever our resident Joan Holloway type HR Bully Person has so much negative GRAR bottled up that they feel they have to simultaneously use colleagues as toxic waste dump offload containers and/or punch down at their inferiors in reflexive frustration, because it's likely due to all that anxious mental BS they themselves are negotiating and don't even know how to articulate, much less mitigate.
really.. this thread has given me so many good tools to determine what I'm experiencing, but more importantly when it's important for me to step up and be compassionate, when I should go through the motions (because I don't really care but it's the right, and more importantly least escalating, thing to do) and when it's fine for me to just go "LALALA AIN'T GIVE A DAMN" where previously that was kind of my default state regardless of how I actually felt.
posted by lonefrontranger at 8:51 AM on July 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
now that I'm aware of it, it's something else I can give myself permission to just smile and make appropriate noises whenever our resident Joan Holloway type HR Bully Person has so much negative GRAR bottled up that they feel they have to simultaneously use colleagues as toxic waste dump offload containers and/or punch down at their inferiors in reflexive frustration, because it's likely due to all that anxious mental BS they themselves are negotiating and don't even know how to articulate, much less mitigate.
really.. this thread has given me so many good tools to determine what I'm experiencing, but more importantly when it's important for me to step up and be compassionate, when I should go through the motions (because I don't really care but it's the right, and more importantly least escalating, thing to do) and when it's fine for me to just go "LALALA AIN'T GIVE A DAMN" where previously that was kind of my default state regardless of how I actually felt.
posted by lonefrontranger at 8:51 AM on July 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
At this point in the thread, I'm wondering if other people are now beginning to talk about the effect having learned about this has on our daily lives. I, for one, am heartened by these kinds of stories because it's showing that by taking what we've learned out into the world, we're actively learning, both as the emotional laborers and the emotional laborees.
For example, hubs took the day off of work to oversee a major house project which he initiated and spent over $1K on for just the parts alone. Today, two handymen are here to help us drill holes through parts of our house, and due to circumstances beyond my control, I wasn't able to to the grocery shopping this weekend. (Note: This is my job that I've chosen to take on because I have more free time, he pays for the majority of the other expenses, and I'm using the income from my part-time job to pay for them.) Our fridge is getting empty and we're running out of some of our staples.
We meal plan, we have lots of stuff in our chest freezer, so for the most part, our weekly grocery bill can be low and the list can be small. However, I still need to have his input on the list because he can be very picky and fussy about what he eats.
While he and the handymen were going about and making a plan, I was finishing up our list and called him over.
Him: [sounding aggrieved] What?
Me: Take a look at this list. Is there anything else you want or you think we need?
Him: I'm busy! [pointing at roaming handymen] We're doing stuff!
Me: [looks at him] This is important, too.
[Husband pauses, comes over, looks at list, adds his items, then goes back to handymen.]
Small steps.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:58 AM on July 29, 2015 [10 favorites]
For example, hubs took the day off of work to oversee a major house project which he initiated and spent over $1K on for just the parts alone. Today, two handymen are here to help us drill holes through parts of our house, and due to circumstances beyond my control, I wasn't able to to the grocery shopping this weekend. (Note: This is my job that I've chosen to take on because I have more free time, he pays for the majority of the other expenses, and I'm using the income from my part-time job to pay for them.) Our fridge is getting empty and we're running out of some of our staples.
We meal plan, we have lots of stuff in our chest freezer, so for the most part, our weekly grocery bill can be low and the list can be small. However, I still need to have his input on the list because he can be very picky and fussy about what he eats.
While he and the handymen were going about and making a plan, I was finishing up our list and called him over.
Him: [sounding aggrieved] What?
Me: Take a look at this list. Is there anything else you want or you think we need?
Him: I'm busy! [pointing at roaming handymen] We're doing stuff!
Me: [looks at him] This is important, too.
[Husband pauses, comes over, looks at list, adds his items, then goes back to handymen.]
Small steps.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:58 AM on July 29, 2015 [10 favorites]
It occurs to me that the very act of phrasing comments in a nonconfrontational way, trying to be supportive or friendly even if disagreeing, is emotional labor, and the (typically male) style of belligerent "actually, you're completely wrong, and probably an idiot/bigot as well" comment is a striving for that form of power: I don't have to take your reactions into account one little bit, I can just spew out whatever's on my mind.
For sure -- for a while now, I've noted, to myself and (girl)friends, especially after the umpteenth time having another 'conversation/argument' with men of the geeky/nerdy inclination about movies, politics or social justice, that plenty of men use verbal speech as another form of asserting dominance, either through displays of knowledge/intelligence/wisdom. I grew up more with nerd and fangirls than with boys, and I'm used to spirited debate, so I came into discussing the same things with men quite later in my young adult life, and the level of aggravated insult used to shock me, until I realised that they think I'm making them look stupid. (i mean, arguably, in plenty of those cases, they were, but the point is that they had, up to that point and perhaps after, cultivated very little grace in having any sort of deeper conversational back-and-forth)
posted by cendawanita at 9:13 AM on July 29, 2015 [20 favorites]
For sure -- for a while now, I've noted, to myself and (girl)friends, especially after the umpteenth time having another 'conversation/argument' with men of the geeky/nerdy inclination about movies, politics or social justice, that plenty of men use verbal speech as another form of asserting dominance, either through displays of knowledge/intelligence/wisdom. I grew up more with nerd and fangirls than with boys, and I'm used to spirited debate, so I came into discussing the same things with men quite later in my young adult life, and the level of aggravated insult used to shock me, until I realised that they think I'm making them look stupid. (i mean, arguably, in plenty of those cases, they were, but the point is that they had, up to that point and perhaps after, cultivated very little grace in having any sort of deeper conversational back-and-forth)
posted by cendawanita at 9:13 AM on July 29, 2015 [20 favorites]
What's to stop us having an annual Crone Island retreat at an actual island? I bet we get a lot of takers and enough people to rent out the whole place.
You know, if we make it a camping type communal work retreat - which I promise you, I've done, and many hands literally do make light work - on a foresty island that is not a popular "tourist destination", this is actually totally doable. I am 100% happy to use my experience organizing women's retreats for activist organizations to organize a women's retreat for Mefites.
also that would mean we would spread to even moar subsites.
posted by corb at 9:42 AM on July 29, 2015 [25 favorites]
You know, if we make it a camping type communal work retreat - which I promise you, I've done, and many hands literally do make light work - on a foresty island that is not a popular "tourist destination", this is actually totally doable. I am 100% happy to use my experience organizing women's retreats for activist organizations to organize a women's retreat for Mefites.
also that would mean we would spread to even moar subsites.
posted by corb at 9:42 AM on July 29, 2015 [25 favorites]
I’ve finally made it through this thread after a couple weeks of lunchtime reading, and it’s been interesting to see how my thoughts have flowed. I’ve never actually posted on this side of MetaFilter before.
Initially I felt like this thread sort of explained why my parents continue to perform emotional labor and spend time with my dad’s side of the family despite hating most of the family gatherings. I’m still baffled why my mom, who opts out of a lot of bullshit women-related emotional labor (though I think it’s her extreme cheapness that causes her to opt out of the greeting card industrial complex), puts up with these family gatherings. The food is horrible, the company tedious-bordering-on-offensive, and the bizarre born again/Lutheran mix means there’s no booze. But I think there is real fear, especially as they (and especially my grandmother) get older, that if you opt out of too much, no one will play nicely when everyone’s health shit hits the fan. I’ve opted out for the most part of that side of my extended family, as have my brothers, who have moved to opposite sides of the country. We all feel A-OK with that decision thus far, even though I get the most parental shaming about it (especially now that I have a kid – “We just want you to share him with the rest of the family,” my parents say – um, WHAT?!).
While reading the thread later, I started to congratulate myself a bit on opting-out of a lot of this stuff in general, and eloping/marrying a guy who shoulders his own family emotional labor load. And our cleanliness radars are complimentary – I can’t stand messy floors, he can’t stand a gross bathtub – what an easy division of labor! But then I felt sad at how few of my pre-baby friendships have been maintained through the first few years of parenthood. Even though I'm an introvert, I used to organize a bunch of gatherings, saw friends all the time, checked in with them when I didn’t see them, etc., and when I fell off the radar when our own family’s health shit hit the fan, nobody stepped into that role. Or if they did, I was not on the invite list. So then I felt rejected and friendless.
But I’ve come to realize that I have a defined capacity for a certain amount of emotional labor, and with this life change it’s sadly shifted away from friends/husband and moved toward household/childcare things. This is not how my life was during the first half of my marriage, and I think it contributed toward some of my postpartum depression. I don’t know how to rebalance this now that we’re 2.5 years into this “new normal.” For example, my son has always been on my health insurance, which means I schedule his doctor’s appointments and manage his medications, which means I manage three separate refill shipments/deliveries, which means that I keep constant track of what we have in stock, when it will run out or expire, how long it will take for the new meds to be compounded and/or delivered, who will be home to wait for the courier delivering thousands of dollars’ worth of perishable medications between a 2-4 hour window, what needs to be refrigerated immediately upon delivery, and whether or not we need new syringes or other supplies. This has cascaded into managing the grocery situation so that there is a variety of food available for my son to eat on his restricted diet, whereas my husband would feed him frozen waffles for three meals a day if that’s all that was around. I don’t think my husband has any idea about the extent of this mental/emotional burden on me, though we’ve talked about it a couple times.
Tl;dr : I think I would like to spend some time with you on Crone Island, but I don’t want my son to die while I’m away. And this makes me sad. Stupid patriarchy (and stupid health insurance).
P.S. I sent this thread to my brother early on, telling him that it explained a lot about our parents’ extended family relationship, and this was his response: “I tried reading through this, but it's quite the huge thread and I could quite see the connection in what I read.” I found it fitting.
posted by Maarika at 9:53 AM on July 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
Initially I felt like this thread sort of explained why my parents continue to perform emotional labor and spend time with my dad’s side of the family despite hating most of the family gatherings. I’m still baffled why my mom, who opts out of a lot of bullshit women-related emotional labor (though I think it’s her extreme cheapness that causes her to opt out of the greeting card industrial complex), puts up with these family gatherings. The food is horrible, the company tedious-bordering-on-offensive, and the bizarre born again/Lutheran mix means there’s no booze. But I think there is real fear, especially as they (and especially my grandmother) get older, that if you opt out of too much, no one will play nicely when everyone’s health shit hits the fan. I’ve opted out for the most part of that side of my extended family, as have my brothers, who have moved to opposite sides of the country. We all feel A-OK with that decision thus far, even though I get the most parental shaming about it (especially now that I have a kid – “We just want you to share him with the rest of the family,” my parents say – um, WHAT?!).
While reading the thread later, I started to congratulate myself a bit on opting-out of a lot of this stuff in general, and eloping/marrying a guy who shoulders his own family emotional labor load. And our cleanliness radars are complimentary – I can’t stand messy floors, he can’t stand a gross bathtub – what an easy division of labor! But then I felt sad at how few of my pre-baby friendships have been maintained through the first few years of parenthood. Even though I'm an introvert, I used to organize a bunch of gatherings, saw friends all the time, checked in with them when I didn’t see them, etc., and when I fell off the radar when our own family’s health shit hit the fan, nobody stepped into that role. Or if they did, I was not on the invite list. So then I felt rejected and friendless.
But I’ve come to realize that I have a defined capacity for a certain amount of emotional labor, and with this life change it’s sadly shifted away from friends/husband and moved toward household/childcare things. This is not how my life was during the first half of my marriage, and I think it contributed toward some of my postpartum depression. I don’t know how to rebalance this now that we’re 2.5 years into this “new normal.” For example, my son has always been on my health insurance, which means I schedule his doctor’s appointments and manage his medications, which means I manage three separate refill shipments/deliveries, which means that I keep constant track of what we have in stock, when it will run out or expire, how long it will take for the new meds to be compounded and/or delivered, who will be home to wait for the courier delivering thousands of dollars’ worth of perishable medications between a 2-4 hour window, what needs to be refrigerated immediately upon delivery, and whether or not we need new syringes or other supplies. This has cascaded into managing the grocery situation so that there is a variety of food available for my son to eat on his restricted diet, whereas my husband would feed him frozen waffles for three meals a day if that’s all that was around. I don’t think my husband has any idea about the extent of this mental/emotional burden on me, though we’ve talked about it a couple times.
Tl;dr : I think I would like to spend some time with you on Crone Island, but I don’t want my son to die while I’m away. And this makes me sad. Stupid patriarchy (and stupid health insurance).
P.S. I sent this thread to my brother early on, telling him that it explained a lot about our parents’ extended family relationship, and this was his response: “I tried reading through this, but it's quite the huge thread and I could quite see the connection in what I read.” I found it fitting.
posted by Maarika at 9:53 AM on July 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
Book PDF updated:
https://app.box.com/mefi-UEL-CroneIsland-bookPDF
Note: 20MB! (I'll see what I can do about the file size next time around.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:58 AM on July 29, 2015 [22 favorites]
https://app.box.com/mefi-UEL-CroneIsland-bookPDF
Note: 20MB! (I'll see what I can do about the file size next time around.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:58 AM on July 29, 2015 [22 favorites]
> While I didn't bring up the actual topic of this thread, I did talk about intangibles that normally wouldn't have given a thought to, to explore his thinking. One thing he said struck me, something about beiing a thinker and introspective and thus feeling more secure about his decisions - being willing to be different from the groupthink - because he trusted himself.
That insight brought me back here today with the nugget to share and explore further with you all - what is the role that trust, and trusting ourselves, first, have to play the context of these conversations, and, how much of difference does it make to me trusting him more because he trusts himself?
Hm. I come from an opposite position. I trust neither myself nor society at large, but I trust that some people I know will identify and acknowledge effort. They may point out my blind spots, but I can also read and diagnose them myself. I don't know him, but I'm not a genius. There's so many things I didn't notice, so many transgressions I made, and so much nursed anger towards others which were really caused by my actions. Doubting myself and listening has really helped me identify my privilege and bad behavior.
posted by halifix at 10:49 AM on July 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
That insight brought me back here today with the nugget to share and explore further with you all - what is the role that trust, and trusting ourselves, first, have to play the context of these conversations, and, how much of difference does it make to me trusting him more because he trusts himself?
Hm. I come from an opposite position. I trust neither myself nor society at large, but I trust that some people I know will identify and acknowledge effort. They may point out my blind spots, but I can also read and diagnose them myself. I don't know him, but I'm not a genius. There's so many things I didn't notice, so many transgressions I made, and so much nursed anger towards others which were really caused by my actions. Doubting myself and listening has really helped me identify my privilege and bad behavior.
posted by halifix at 10:49 AM on July 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Dwardles: I cried when I remembered the scraps I had been so grateful for...
I've shed many tears over that horrible emotional dynamic myself. So many tears that it's difficult to think about, even to this day. When I was married, I felt like a dog begging for scraps of his affection. I hated it with every goddamned fiber of my being. But I put up with it for much longer than I should have, because I had so much invested in that relationship, and because it made my life so much easier in most of the day-to-day practical ways (e.g., good health insurance with benefits I needed that wouldn't have been available to me as a single person living in the USA.)
There's a brilliant song by Vanessa Daou, with lyrics from Erica Jong's writings, called "My Love is Too Much." It haunted me for years, because I knew when I heard it that this was the dynamic in my own relationship, and I didn't want to face it and deal with the fallout. Here's a sampling from the lyrics:
My love is too much–
it embarrasses you–
blood, poems, babies,
red needs that telephone
from foreign countries,
black needs that spatter
the pages
of your white papery heart.
You would rather have a girl
with simpler needs:
lunch, sex, undemanding
loving,
dinner, wine, bed,
the occasional blow-job
& needs that are never
red as gaping wounds
but cool & blue
as television screens
in tract houses.
In the middle of that doomed relationship, I wrote a long personal essay called "The Emotional Distance Problem: A Radical Lesbian Feminist Awakening." It was an attempt to reckon with the huge toll of a lifetime of unpaid, unrewarded emotional labour. It was also an attempt to intellectualise myself away from bisexuality and into a political lesbian identity, so I could cling to the hope that I might one day have a relationship in which my emotional labour was reciprocated and rewarded - or at least appreciated. (It worked fairly well for about a year, in my head at least...but eventually I had to face the fact that I'm closer to a Kinsey 1 or 2 than a Kinsey 6. Damn. No lesbian separatist commune for me.)
posted by velvet winter at 11:20 AM on July 29, 2015 [24 favorites]
I've shed many tears over that horrible emotional dynamic myself. So many tears that it's difficult to think about, even to this day. When I was married, I felt like a dog begging for scraps of his affection. I hated it with every goddamned fiber of my being. But I put up with it for much longer than I should have, because I had so much invested in that relationship, and because it made my life so much easier in most of the day-to-day practical ways (e.g., good health insurance with benefits I needed that wouldn't have been available to me as a single person living in the USA.)
There's a brilliant song by Vanessa Daou, with lyrics from Erica Jong's writings, called "My Love is Too Much." It haunted me for years, because I knew when I heard it that this was the dynamic in my own relationship, and I didn't want to face it and deal with the fallout. Here's a sampling from the lyrics:
My love is too much–
it embarrasses you–
blood, poems, babies,
red needs that telephone
from foreign countries,
black needs that spatter
the pages
of your white papery heart.
You would rather have a girl
with simpler needs:
lunch, sex, undemanding
loving,
dinner, wine, bed,
the occasional blow-job
& needs that are never
red as gaping wounds
but cool & blue
as television screens
in tract houses.
In the middle of that doomed relationship, I wrote a long personal essay called "The Emotional Distance Problem: A Radical Lesbian Feminist Awakening." It was an attempt to reckon with the huge toll of a lifetime of unpaid, unrewarded emotional labour. It was also an attempt to intellectualise myself away from bisexuality and into a political lesbian identity, so I could cling to the hope that I might one day have a relationship in which my emotional labour was reciprocated and rewarded - or at least appreciated. (It worked fairly well for about a year, in my head at least...but eventually I had to face the fact that I'm closer to a Kinsey 1 or 2 than a Kinsey 6. Damn. No lesbian separatist commune for me.)
posted by velvet winter at 11:20 AM on July 29, 2015 [24 favorites]
I read Metafilter every day, but haven't even visited the front page in two weeks because I've been living in here. I wish I could hug this thread!
posted by sweetmarie at 11:28 AM on July 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by sweetmarie at 11:28 AM on July 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
*enters, stage right*
Um, the mod shoved me in and said I could come out and play in this thread...
*picks up sweetmarie and squeezes*
posted by hugbucket at 11:46 AM on July 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Um, the mod shoved me in and said I could come out and play in this thread...
*picks up sweetmarie and squeezes*
posted by hugbucket at 11:46 AM on July 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
sweetmarie: I read Metafilter every day, but haven't even visited the front page in two weeks because I've been living in here.
Likewise. All of my MeFi time has gone into this thread for the past week. I'm leaving for a conference tomorrow where I'll be presenting some of my artistic work, and won't have Internet access for several days. Even though I'm really excited about the conference, I'm also sad because I won't have time to catch up on this thread until next week. When I return, I think I'll look into joining that Google group that Lyn Never mentioned. This thread will be closed after 30 days, and we need a place for this to continue.
And as much as I see the value of a Crone Island retreat, my interests are more in the direction of co-housing, co-ops, not-Mom groups, community land trusts, variations on the monastic model...something home-based that doesn't require much travel. The Golden Girls, basically. Something that could provide sustainable ways for would-be Crone Islanders to live near one another, and care for one another in their daily lives over the long term.
posted by velvet winter at 12:16 PM on July 29, 2015 [16 favorites]
Likewise. All of my MeFi time has gone into this thread for the past week. I'm leaving for a conference tomorrow where I'll be presenting some of my artistic work, and won't have Internet access for several days. Even though I'm really excited about the conference, I'm also sad because I won't have time to catch up on this thread until next week. When I return, I think I'll look into joining that Google group that Lyn Never mentioned. This thread will be closed after 30 days, and we need a place for this to continue.
And as much as I see the value of a Crone Island retreat, my interests are more in the direction of co-housing, co-ops, not-Mom groups, community land trusts, variations on the monastic model...something home-based that doesn't require much travel. The Golden Girls, basically. Something that could provide sustainable ways for would-be Crone Islanders to live near one another, and care for one another in their daily lives over the long term.
posted by velvet winter at 12:16 PM on July 29, 2015 [16 favorites]
It occurs to me that the very act of phrasing comments in a nonconfrontational way, trying to be supportive or friendly even if disagreeing, is emotional labor, and the (typically male) style of belligerent "actually, you're completely wrong, and probably an idiot/bigot as well" comment is a striving for that form of power: I don't have to take your reactions into account one little bit, I can just spew out whatever's on my mind.
This also made it occur to me that the -often predominantly male- objections to "call out culture" or "SJWs" might hinge on this?
As in, essentially, a dudes reaction to a woman saying "sorry, you don't GET to do that shitty thing" is either consciously or subconsciously "hey, how DARE you, you don't get to speak to me that way ladywoman!".
I've definitely noticed both online and off, and when surrounded by activist-y people or in a predominantly progressive/activist space that dudes are way more willing to take direct callout like that from another man, and it's usually when it's a woman(or several women) saying it that they get all defensive and shitposty and everyone has to calm them down.
Not that man-shits-thread other-man-shits-back isn't a common occurrence, but at least in meatspace where i could see other peoples emotional reactions(and especially the more subtle/body language ones and building saddlesore rage, which i'm bad at groking anyways and is essentially impossible for me in text) that really seemed to be a common dynamic.
It absolutely feels like there's an element of not just striving for that power, but of men going "this is our power" when anyone who isn't a white or male expresses anger in that sort of situation at a white dude.
posted by emptythought at 12:41 PM on July 29, 2015 [28 favorites]
This also made it occur to me that the -often predominantly male- objections to "call out culture" or "SJWs" might hinge on this?
As in, essentially, a dudes reaction to a woman saying "sorry, you don't GET to do that shitty thing" is either consciously or subconsciously "hey, how DARE you, you don't get to speak to me that way ladywoman!".
I've definitely noticed both online and off, and when surrounded by activist-y people or in a predominantly progressive/activist space that dudes are way more willing to take direct callout like that from another man, and it's usually when it's a woman(or several women) saying it that they get all defensive and shitposty and everyone has to calm them down.
Not that man-shits-thread other-man-shits-back isn't a common occurrence, but at least in meatspace where i could see other peoples emotional reactions(and especially the more subtle/body language ones and building saddlesore rage, which i'm bad at groking anyways and is essentially impossible for me in text) that really seemed to be a common dynamic.
It absolutely feels like there's an element of not just striving for that power, but of men going "this is our power" when anyone who isn't a white or male expresses anger in that sort of situation at a white dude.
posted by emptythought at 12:41 PM on July 29, 2015 [28 favorites]
I just remembered one of my favorite songs by Emily Haines and the Soft Skeleton. (There's a line from another song on this album called The Lottery which kind of captures the sense of Crone-ing for me-- it has the line "we only wanted what everyone wanted when bras started burning up ribs in the sixties")
The Maid Needs a Maid
bros before hos disagree on the sidelines
fight for a fee
the man needs a maid
the maid needs a maid.
bros before hos is a rule read the guidelines
you trouble me
your breasts heave when you sing
your mouth should be working for me for free.
sewing up the fold ‘cause I’ve been laid up,
will you put on the fire for me,
draw the bath and remind me to eat?
You won’t need a real job,
you won’t need a real job
because I would love to pay for you,
you could be a good wife to me.
I would love to pay for you,
you are the maid for me.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:49 PM on July 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
The Maid Needs a Maid
bros before hos disagree on the sidelines
fight for a fee
the man needs a maid
the maid needs a maid.
bros before hos is a rule read the guidelines
you trouble me
your breasts heave when you sing
your mouth should be working for me for free.
sewing up the fold ‘cause I’ve been laid up,
will you put on the fire for me,
draw the bath and remind me to eat?
You won’t need a real job,
you won’t need a real job
because I would love to pay for you,
you could be a good wife to me.
I would love to pay for you,
you are the maid for me.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:49 PM on July 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
So much. This thread is so much of everything I need to read.
And there is REAL CHANGE happening in my household because of the wisdom here. This is not necessarily a pleasant process for the other people (husband, three kids) in the house who are used to me doing the emotional labor at superhuman levels. Now, suddenly, I'm walking away from a bad attitude instead of trying to placate and cajole and make everything happy? I'm expecting the residents who can read to actually look at the calendar instead of having all the family business queued up in my brain? Husband gets called out for not letting me know he was going to be late last night, in a "you have a cell phone, use it please" way? NO WAY!
Yes way. Oh, so very much yes way.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 12:58 PM on July 29, 2015 [43 favorites]
And there is REAL CHANGE happening in my household because of the wisdom here. This is not necessarily a pleasant process for the other people (husband, three kids) in the house who are used to me doing the emotional labor at superhuman levels. Now, suddenly, I'm walking away from a bad attitude instead of trying to placate and cajole and make everything happy? I'm expecting the residents who can read to actually look at the calendar instead of having all the family business queued up in my brain? Husband gets called out for not letting me know he was going to be late last night, in a "you have a cell phone, use it please" way? NO WAY!
Yes way. Oh, so very much yes way.
posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 12:58 PM on July 29, 2015 [43 favorites]
> This also made it occur to me that the -often predominantly male- objections to "call out culture" or "SJWs" might hinge on this? ... It absolutely feels like there's an element of not just striving for that power, but of men going "this is our power" when anyone who isn't a white or male expresses anger in that sort of situation at a white dude.
Yes, that's very perceptive. Maybe we're reinventing the wheel here, but we're digging into some really basic stuff that's hard to see because it's so basic.
posted by languagehat at 1:19 PM on July 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes, that's very perceptive. Maybe we're reinventing the wheel here, but we're digging into some really basic stuff that's hard to see because it's so basic.
posted by languagehat at 1:19 PM on July 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
Island of the Crones
Tune: She'll be Comin' 'Round The Mountain
Chorus:
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island of the crones (of the crones);
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island of the crones (of the crones);
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island; she’ll be cruisin’ to the island;
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island of the crones (of the crones).
Verses:
She’ll be drinkin’ margaritas with the crones…
She’ll be eatin’ fresh fish tacos with the crones…
She’ll be chattin’ ’bout her exes with the crones…
She’ll be dancin’ in the moonlight with the crones…
We will all go out to greet her with the crones…
She’ll be grillin’ all her favorites with the crones…
She’ll be swimmin’ in the ocean with the crones…
She’ll read books uninterrupted with the crones…
She’ll have bubble baths a-plenty with the crones…
She will wear her favorite outfits with the crones…
We will welcome all her stories with the crones…
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:37 PM on July 29, 2015 [33 favorites]
Tune: She'll be Comin' 'Round The Mountain
Chorus:
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island of the crones (of the crones);
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island of the crones (of the crones);
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island; she’ll be cruisin’ to the island;
She’ll be cruisin’ to the island of the crones (of the crones).
Verses:
She’ll be drinkin’ margaritas with the crones…
She’ll be eatin’ fresh fish tacos with the crones…
She’ll be chattin’ ’bout her exes with the crones…
She’ll be dancin’ in the moonlight with the crones…
We will all go out to greet her with the crones…
She’ll be grillin’ all her favorites with the crones…
She’ll be swimmin’ in the ocean with the crones…
She’ll read books uninterrupted with the crones…
She’ll have bubble baths a-plenty with the crones…
She will wear her favorite outfits with the crones…
We will welcome all her stories with the crones…
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:37 PM on July 29, 2015 [33 favorites]
This. This is why I am constantly saying "Men! Talk to the men you know about this topic. Talk to them in non-confrontational settings. Talk to them before they've made shitty jokes. Talke to them while they're making shitty jokes. Make it clear that you do not agree with them and that you will not participate in normalizing this behavior. In part because the shitty jokes are sometimes often a symptom of deeply held beliefs that encompass way shittier behavior. But also because the shitty jokes HARM ME WHEN I HEAR THEM."
Men, if you think it is stressful for you to bring up the subject of emotional labor, or to hear sexist jokes from the douchebags in your life, or from the "perfectly nice guy who makes a mistake every now and then" imagine, just take a second to imagine how it feels to be a woman who does 95% of the emotional labor in her romantic and work and parenting and social group lives, and hears this sexist joke crap all the time. Especially when the sexist jokes lead to demands for emotional labor, "oh, no, don't worry about it. that joke wasn't tooooo bad!" we're expected to croon when men step over even the brightest lines of social nicety.
Now before you start saying "What? I'm supposed to confront every guy harassing a lady to smile on the subway?" First, note that I didn't request that. But now that you've mentioned it, that would help too. Because she's not on the train to make that guy feel better. And he is actively on the train making her feel worse. It's safer for you to do it than it is for her to do it. Way. Safer.
posted by bilabial at 1:42 PM on July 29, 2015 [49 favorites]
Men, if you think it is stressful for you to bring up the subject of emotional labor, or to hear sexist jokes from the douchebags in your life, or from the "perfectly nice guy who makes a mistake every now and then" imagine, just take a second to imagine how it feels to be a woman who does 95% of the emotional labor in her romantic and work and parenting and social group lives, and hears this sexist joke crap all the time. Especially when the sexist jokes lead to demands for emotional labor, "oh, no, don't worry about it. that joke wasn't tooooo bad!" we're expected to croon when men step over even the brightest lines of social nicety.
Now before you start saying "What? I'm supposed to confront every guy harassing a lady to smile on the subway?" First, note that I didn't request that. But now that you've mentioned it, that would help too. Because she's not on the train to make that guy feel better. And he is actively on the train making her feel worse. It's safer for you to do it than it is for her to do it. Way. Safer.
posted by bilabial at 1:42 PM on July 29, 2015 [49 favorites]
It absolutely feels like there's an element of not just striving for that power, but of men going "this is our power" when anyone who isn't a white or male expresses anger in that sort of situation at a white dude.
funny enough, this exact scenario just played out in the cube next to me. This dude, let's call him Annoying Chemist Guy, who has an enormous ego, weird social skills and doesn't respect others' personal space well, and has been TOLD THAT. MANY TIMES. just got told by our awesome other tech writer guy (both white males):
"DUDE. Don't roll up on me when I'm on the phone like that again, because the next time you interrupt me while I'm talking, you're gonna get shanked!"
followed naturally by profuse apologies from ACG because OF COURSE.
and as awesome as that is for setting boundaries for our staff and all, I could never in a thousand million years get away with this sort of thing. Because girl.
meh.
posted by lonefrontranger at 1:50 PM on July 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
funny enough, this exact scenario just played out in the cube next to me. This dude, let's call him Annoying Chemist Guy, who has an enormous ego, weird social skills and doesn't respect others' personal space well, and has been TOLD THAT. MANY TIMES. just got told by our awesome other tech writer guy (both white males):
"DUDE. Don't roll up on me when I'm on the phone like that again, because the next time you interrupt me while I'm talking, you're gonna get shanked!"
followed naturally by profuse apologies from ACG because OF COURSE.
and as awesome as that is for setting boundaries for our staff and all, I could never in a thousand million years get away with this sort of thing. Because girl.
meh.
posted by lonefrontranger at 1:50 PM on July 29, 2015 [13 favorites]
It occurs to me that the very act of phrasing comments in a nonconfrontational way, trying to be supportive or friendly even if disagreeing, is emotional labor,
This is my strategy in court, or at least the one I start with. "Judge, check it out, [doing what I want you to do] was totally your idea all along!"
Sometimes it works better than others.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:23 PM on July 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is my strategy in court, or at least the one I start with. "Judge, check it out, [doing what I want you to do] was totally your idea all along!"
Sometimes it works better than others.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:23 PM on July 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
and as awesome as that is for setting boundaries for our staff and all, I could never in a thousand million years get away with this sort of thing. Because girl.
Not with that exact phrasing, but I grew up with the knowledge that if you sneaked up behind Grandma S and startled her, she'd reflexively smack you, hard.
When I was older, Mom explained that this was because as a young woman, Grandma had been gorgeous and curvy and had to deal with a lot of unexpected groping from handsy men. So when it would happen, she would SHRIEK at the top of her lungs while striking whoever had just grabbed her. Then she would giggle "with embarrassment" and say, dimpling ingenuously, "oh my goodness, you startled me!"
posted by Lexica at 2:26 PM on July 29, 2015 [49 favorites]
Not with that exact phrasing, but I grew up with the knowledge that if you sneaked up behind Grandma S and startled her, she'd reflexively smack you, hard.
When I was older, Mom explained that this was because as a young woman, Grandma had been gorgeous and curvy and had to deal with a lot of unexpected groping from handsy men. So when it would happen, she would SHRIEK at the top of her lungs while striking whoever had just grabbed her. Then she would giggle "with embarrassment" and say, dimpling ingenuously, "oh my goodness, you startled me!"
posted by Lexica at 2:26 PM on July 29, 2015 [49 favorites]
Lexica, that's also awesome on your grandma's behalf and I definitely appreciate she was doing hollaback before it was cool; unfortunately I am middle aged, decidedly un-curvy and plain so I don't think I could pull it off all that well.
posted by lonefrontranger at 3:50 PM on July 29, 2015
posted by lonefrontranger at 3:50 PM on July 29, 2015
That insight brought me back here today with the nugget to share and explore further with you all - what is the role that trust, and trusting ourselves, first, have to play the context of these conversations, and, how much of difference does it make to me trusting him more because he trusts himself?
I think the tricky thing with trust is that people often want us to trust them based on their self-assessment when how trustable someone is can only be determined through experience and seeing how they react to crises and challenge, and trust that is demanded by another is worthless.
I think this ties back into Conspire's point about how different people react to racism, and how POC often end up holding the EL bag because white people can pat ourselves on the back via exploding at other white people and then walk away without any consequences while POC will be disproportionately targeted for things those white people did/said. That white person would report they were being trustworthy and anti-racist, but the people targeted because of their contemptuous response would have a very different perspective, and chances are if they approached the white person and said, "Hey, I know you mean well but you're actually making things worse for us," then the white person would react with all the fury of a questioned "ally" and make the typical "be nice to me, I don't have to be on your side" comments we know and love*.
*Spoiler: we don't love this.
It's part of the whole dynamic of "don't call yourself an ally" because the words and actions so often don't match up. In my job, I don't tell people I'm trustworthy. I show up, I try to have integrity, and I let them decide if they're going to trust me or not - and if they decide I'm not worth their trust then part of my job is to be ok with that. I don't get to order other people to trust me just because I try to be trustworthy, and trying to do so is actually evidence that I am not trustworthy.
And frankly, in this culture, being the lone-wolf-maverick-doesn't-go-along-with-the-crowd-powerful-person-of-awesome is socially rewarded so long as one doesn't actually go against the crowd. Think about the whole "I'm so brave because I'm anti-PC" brigade, or the "I say hard truths and am honest" retreat of cruel and prejudiced people who advocate discriminatory beliefs. In that case, the words not matching the actions is actually part of the whole posture - it's a way of rarifying conformity as radical individuation. I'd be highly disinclined to believe anyone who said that about themselves until I saw them in action.
Maarika: For example, my son has always been on my health insurance, which means I schedule his doctor’s appointments and manage his medications, which means I manage three separate refill shipments/deliveries, which means that I keep constant track of what we have in stock, when it will run out or expire, how long it will take for the new meds to be compounded and/or delivered, who will be home to wait for the courier delivering thousands of dollars’ worth of perishable medications between a 2-4 hour window, what needs to be refrigerated immediately upon delivery, and whether or not we need new syringes or other supplies.
If you don't mind a suggestion (no requirement to follow it, of course) one way of beginning to address this might be to make it more visible - e.g. have a calendar up on the wall labeled "medication routine" where you write down all the things that you know in your head with a list next to it of "food $child can eat". That sets a basis for conversation and makes the amount of work you're doing physically take up space in the home, the way it's already taking up space in your head. It has the added bonus that if you get sick there is a place outside of your head/personal calendar where the information is kept, so an interim caregiver can step in more smoothly, and sets a basis for communication once you and your partner figure out a more equitable distribution of physical and mental EL.
I'm so very sorry you're son's health has taken such a difficult turn. It's clear you're doing a wonderful job doing what you need to so he is healthy and safe. I hope others in your life can step up to give both you and he the support you need in a spirit of kindness and love.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:23 PM on July 29, 2015 [38 favorites]
I think the tricky thing with trust is that people often want us to trust them based on their self-assessment when how trustable someone is can only be determined through experience and seeing how they react to crises and challenge, and trust that is demanded by another is worthless.
I think this ties back into Conspire's point about how different people react to racism, and how POC often end up holding the EL bag because white people can pat ourselves on the back via exploding at other white people and then walk away without any consequences while POC will be disproportionately targeted for things those white people did/said. That white person would report they were being trustworthy and anti-racist, but the people targeted because of their contemptuous response would have a very different perspective, and chances are if they approached the white person and said, "Hey, I know you mean well but you're actually making things worse for us," then the white person would react with all the fury of a questioned "ally" and make the typical "be nice to me, I don't have to be on your side" comments we know and love*.
*Spoiler: we don't love this.
It's part of the whole dynamic of "don't call yourself an ally" because the words and actions so often don't match up. In my job, I don't tell people I'm trustworthy. I show up, I try to have integrity, and I let them decide if they're going to trust me or not - and if they decide I'm not worth their trust then part of my job is to be ok with that. I don't get to order other people to trust me just because I try to be trustworthy, and trying to do so is actually evidence that I am not trustworthy.
And frankly, in this culture, being the lone-wolf-maverick-doesn't-go-along-with-the-crowd-powerful-person-of-awesome is socially rewarded so long as one doesn't actually go against the crowd. Think about the whole "I'm so brave because I'm anti-PC" brigade, or the "I say hard truths and am honest" retreat of cruel and prejudiced people who advocate discriminatory beliefs. In that case, the words not matching the actions is actually part of the whole posture - it's a way of rarifying conformity as radical individuation. I'd be highly disinclined to believe anyone who said that about themselves until I saw them in action.
Maarika: For example, my son has always been on my health insurance, which means I schedule his doctor’s appointments and manage his medications, which means I manage three separate refill shipments/deliveries, which means that I keep constant track of what we have in stock, when it will run out or expire, how long it will take for the new meds to be compounded and/or delivered, who will be home to wait for the courier delivering thousands of dollars’ worth of perishable medications between a 2-4 hour window, what needs to be refrigerated immediately upon delivery, and whether or not we need new syringes or other supplies.
If you don't mind a suggestion (no requirement to follow it, of course) one way of beginning to address this might be to make it more visible - e.g. have a calendar up on the wall labeled "medication routine" where you write down all the things that you know in your head with a list next to it of "food $child can eat". That sets a basis for conversation and makes the amount of work you're doing physically take up space in the home, the way it's already taking up space in your head. It has the added bonus that if you get sick there is a place outside of your head/personal calendar where the information is kept, so an interim caregiver can step in more smoothly, and sets a basis for communication once you and your partner figure out a more equitable distribution of physical and mental EL.
I'm so very sorry you're son's health has taken such a difficult turn. It's clear you're doing a wonderful job doing what you need to so he is healthy and safe. I hope others in your life can step up to give both you and he the support you need in a spirit of kindness and love.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:23 PM on July 29, 2015 [38 favorites]
I just want to over share that I was getting a free makeover today at Sephora while waiting for my husband to get out of work, and I talked about this article and the concept of emotional labor like it was my new religion.
Which honestly may be accurate at this point.
By the end she was like YES THIS IS A THING. So my fellow crones, let us spread our religion far and wide. Like the quietest and most necessary revolution.
posted by corb at 6:11 PM on July 29, 2015 [45 favorites]
Which honestly may be accurate at this point.
By the end she was like YES THIS IS A THING. So my fellow crones, let us spread our religion far and wide. Like the quietest and most necessary revolution.
posted by corb at 6:11 PM on July 29, 2015 [45 favorites]
I love this idea of sharing far and wide, behind the blue green and gray. I've been doing the same since it's basically all I think of lately so all my friends who I feel share the common EL burden have been getting ear fulls from me. And it's so far made a difference in my relationship somewhat. I feel he's stepped up to share some of the burden and I gotta say, it feels good to be taken care of a little bit. Even if it's something as simple as someone else having to think about which of the far-too-many options on the shelf I'm going to wipe my ass with this week (seriously, why is shopping for toilet paper so labor intensive? Is that a whole other aspect of this EL infiltration I'm just realizing - that products are marketed to the emotional laborers to make what should be a simple decision into a existential journey in the paper goods aisle?!? Or is that just me? It might be just me...).
posted by danapiper at 6:45 PM on July 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by danapiper at 6:45 PM on July 29, 2015 [8 favorites]
and I talked about this article and the concept of emotional labor like it was my new religion
Earlier this week I was comforting a female friend (whom I have known for decades) following a financial mediation session with her soon-to-be-ex husband and she was upset that she didn't challenge statements he made about her in his deposition.
Soon enough I begin talking about emotional labour and after a while she raised her head and a dawning awareness broke in her eyes... and then mine. And I stopped talking. Because so much of what he said in his statement was about her not sharing the emotional labours of their relationship. I didn't go on, she was hurting enough, and I tried to scramble some examples of her own EL contributions to the marriage but they were not very deep. Don't get me wrong, she is a great friend and is caring/sharing of EL in her friendships and the community, but she did drop the ball in her marriage.
So, um, #notallwomen and so on.
And I have been thinking sooo much about times I drop the ball. I am trying to work out a rubric to help me determine if potential acts of EL fall within my boundaries or outside of them. This rubric in my mind has a lot of slippery snakes and some wobbly ladders because doing (or not doing) various types of EL can result in a slippery slope of reactions which can be very hard to climb up from.
posted by Thella at 7:02 PM on July 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
Earlier this week I was comforting a female friend (whom I have known for decades) following a financial mediation session with her soon-to-be-ex husband and she was upset that she didn't challenge statements he made about her in his deposition.
Soon enough I begin talking about emotional labour and after a while she raised her head and a dawning awareness broke in her eyes... and then mine. And I stopped talking. Because so much of what he said in his statement was about her not sharing the emotional labours of their relationship. I didn't go on, she was hurting enough, and I tried to scramble some examples of her own EL contributions to the marriage but they were not very deep. Don't get me wrong, she is a great friend and is caring/sharing of EL in her friendships and the community, but she did drop the ball in her marriage.
So, um, #notallwomen and so on.
And I have been thinking sooo much about times I drop the ball. I am trying to work out a rubric to help me determine if potential acts of EL fall within my boundaries or outside of them. This rubric in my mind has a lot of slippery snakes and some wobbly ladders because doing (or not doing) various types of EL can result in a slippery slope of reactions which can be very hard to climb up from.
posted by Thella at 7:02 PM on July 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
I was looking for escapist reading at the hospital yesterday and browsing through women's magazines and decided nope, too much work with all the articles on what I can do to be a Better Me (plus ads). That reminds me how men's magazines tend to be service journalism that is about career, physical health and travel. Every single freaking day I'm getting (and reading by choice) articles on being a better friend, a better parent, a better romantic partner, a better manager - it's just this constant education in How To Do Human, but 90% of it is aimed directly and indirectly at women readers.
(And if you're looking for a reasonable escapist magazine, I recommend Flow which seems to be for crones who like stationary. I keep my precious copies stacked by my bed for petting and browsing)
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:38 PM on July 29, 2015 [26 favorites]
(And if you're looking for a reasonable escapist magazine, I recommend Flow which seems to be for crones who like stationary. I keep my precious copies stacked by my bed for petting and browsing)
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:38 PM on July 29, 2015 [26 favorites]
dorothyisunderwood, I never thought about that before... why I sometimes feel weirdly exhausted after reading a light mag at the salon! The expectation that women not only should be better, but desperately want to and will look anywhere for advice on how to be a better does-it-all... and it's true! I want to! I read articles about parenting AND I DON'T EVEN HAVE KIDS! I just... why.
posted by easter queen at 8:51 PM on July 29, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 8:51 PM on July 29, 2015 [21 favorites]
I've spent the better part of today reading this entire thread with great interest after reading the original article. In fact, I just hit my favorite limit for the day - did not even know that was a thing until now, go figure. First, I want to say thank you to everyone who has contributed. This thread has so very much changed how I look at the world and has given me the language to finally understand certain aspects of my life, and why they were and still are in one case, shit. I felt like I too should share my story, as you have all given me so much understanding for the things that have happened in my life. This thread also has shown me that there are many others who, like me, are tired of playing all the games that society just expects women to play, and play with a smile on our faces. I'm glad to know that I have sisters out there who think similarly to me. I hope one day our culture can become less patriarchal, but I'm sad to say that I will probably not live to see that day.
I'm a woman in my early 30s. When I was 18, I began what was to become a 10-year relationship with a man 8 years older then I. It started out great - as others way upthread discussed, he did a lot of emotional work! He made me feel special. Took me out on amazing dates that he knew I'd love. Bought me special things. I was so enamored of him and we began a full-on committed relationship. Fast forward a few years - we bought a house together and moved in. Part of me thought we'd get married and everything would be great. But part of me was concerned - he had lately been doing this irritating thing where my opinion wasn't valid. Not believing me when I cited facts in an argument. Treating me as not an equal. But I shrugged it off - guess I was just naive. When we moved in together - things got much worse. He never did any chores, and when I repeatedly asked for help for things like chores, planning events, etc., he told me I was crazy, being irrational, and the house was clean enough. I would often ask him what happened to that nice guy I originally dated - the one who did nice things for me. He told me I expected too much, and was crazy. That he couldn't read my mind on what I wanted or needed and therefore, he shouldn't have to do anything. My sexual needs went unmet and he would tell me that he wasn't attracted to me when I was upset at him. Which, yes started to become all the time. My self esteem plummeted as the years went by and I started to believe that, yeah, maybe I was this crazy nagging bitch that he constantly described me to be. Eventually I came to resent him, and now I know why - I was doing like 80% of the emotional labor for the relationship, and he was doing barely any. At family events - he and his family always expected me to be the one to help cook and clean. The men just got to sit around and watch sports, which always angered me to no end. You get the idea. I finally dumped him 3 years ago and it's been the best decision I have ever made, and my self esteem has never been better.
In fact - I'm now with someone else, a true feminist of a guy. He was the one to actually show me this thread, and tell me how meaningful it was. In many ways, he does more emotional labor than I in this relationship! But I digress.
This idea of emotional labor also finally brought understanding for me, regarding my parents as well. Similar to someone upthread, I don't have a great relationship with them, and I finally have realized why - they expect me to do 100% of the emotional labor of keeping up the relationship. Well, fuck that. I feel more at ease, after reading all of your comments, to finally realize that the burden should not be 100% on me, and I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not doing more.
Lastly, where I used to work, I was expected to perform so much emotional labor. One of the biggest ones was the expectation that I spend my free weekend and evening time schmoozing, getting clients, doing lots of social interaction, FOR FREE. I will say this also happened to the men there, but my male superiors when they talked to me about it, would make it out like this should be so easy for me. WTF. Because I'm a woman? I never thought about this in these terms before (of emotional labor), but now everything feels so much more clear.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for this thread. It has meant so very much.
posted by FireFountain at 10:24 PM on July 29, 2015 [40 favorites]
I'm a woman in my early 30s. When I was 18, I began what was to become a 10-year relationship with a man 8 years older then I. It started out great - as others way upthread discussed, he did a lot of emotional work! He made me feel special. Took me out on amazing dates that he knew I'd love. Bought me special things. I was so enamored of him and we began a full-on committed relationship. Fast forward a few years - we bought a house together and moved in. Part of me thought we'd get married and everything would be great. But part of me was concerned - he had lately been doing this irritating thing where my opinion wasn't valid. Not believing me when I cited facts in an argument. Treating me as not an equal. But I shrugged it off - guess I was just naive. When we moved in together - things got much worse. He never did any chores, and when I repeatedly asked for help for things like chores, planning events, etc., he told me I was crazy, being irrational, and the house was clean enough. I would often ask him what happened to that nice guy I originally dated - the one who did nice things for me. He told me I expected too much, and was crazy. That he couldn't read my mind on what I wanted or needed and therefore, he shouldn't have to do anything. My sexual needs went unmet and he would tell me that he wasn't attracted to me when I was upset at him. Which, yes started to become all the time. My self esteem plummeted as the years went by and I started to believe that, yeah, maybe I was this crazy nagging bitch that he constantly described me to be. Eventually I came to resent him, and now I know why - I was doing like 80% of the emotional labor for the relationship, and he was doing barely any. At family events - he and his family always expected me to be the one to help cook and clean. The men just got to sit around and watch sports, which always angered me to no end. You get the idea. I finally dumped him 3 years ago and it's been the best decision I have ever made, and my self esteem has never been better.
In fact - I'm now with someone else, a true feminist of a guy. He was the one to actually show me this thread, and tell me how meaningful it was. In many ways, he does more emotional labor than I in this relationship! But I digress.
This idea of emotional labor also finally brought understanding for me, regarding my parents as well. Similar to someone upthread, I don't have a great relationship with them, and I finally have realized why - they expect me to do 100% of the emotional labor of keeping up the relationship. Well, fuck that. I feel more at ease, after reading all of your comments, to finally realize that the burden should not be 100% on me, and I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not doing more.
Lastly, where I used to work, I was expected to perform so much emotional labor. One of the biggest ones was the expectation that I spend my free weekend and evening time schmoozing, getting clients, doing lots of social interaction, FOR FREE. I will say this also happened to the men there, but my male superiors when they talked to me about it, would make it out like this should be so easy for me. WTF. Because I'm a woman? I never thought about this in these terms before (of emotional labor), but now everything feels so much more clear.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for this thread. It has meant so very much.
posted by FireFountain at 10:24 PM on July 29, 2015 [40 favorites]
I just wanted to lodge my own observation that the concept of emotional labor works intersectionally far beyond just male-female power dynamics.
I think this can be universalized to a lot of discussions on power dynamics.
Conspire, I'm so glad you brought this up. For a variety of reasons, stemming from the FPP about Jennifer Pan, I've been thinking a lot about Asian family dynamics. I am pretty convinced one significant reason you so often see SO much resentment from Asian immigrant kids towards their parents is because of the undue burden of emotional labor that gets placed on them, as children who are frequently responsible for safely shepherding their families through modern American society; also as the losing end of that hierarchical Confucian family structure where the happiness and honor of your parents, your extended family, and your community are dependent upon your sucking it up and putting in the work to meet their standards of behavior (which are usually completely oblivious to your needs and wants). Being so obviously outside the mainstream though, you pick up on the unfairness of it a lot sooner, and then you end up with /r/AsianParentStories (admittedly the extreme cases, but it's all the same patterns).
posted by yeahlikethat at 1:31 AM on July 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
I think this can be universalized to a lot of discussions on power dynamics.
Conspire, I'm so glad you brought this up. For a variety of reasons, stemming from the FPP about Jennifer Pan, I've been thinking a lot about Asian family dynamics. I am pretty convinced one significant reason you so often see SO much resentment from Asian immigrant kids towards their parents is because of the undue burden of emotional labor that gets placed on them, as children who are frequently responsible for safely shepherding their families through modern American society; also as the losing end of that hierarchical Confucian family structure where the happiness and honor of your parents, your extended family, and your community are dependent upon your sucking it up and putting in the work to meet their standards of behavior (which are usually completely oblivious to your needs and wants). Being so obviously outside the mainstream though, you pick up on the unfairness of it a lot sooner, and then you end up with /r/AsianParentStories (admittedly the extreme cases, but it's all the same patterns).
posted by yeahlikethat at 1:31 AM on July 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
Many of these stories make me very grateful for my SO, who is very good at expressing that he cares for me and that he listens to me. He looks after me when I’m sick, he brings home little treats and things just because he thinks I’ll like them or he remembers that I need them. He does all of what I’ll call the ‘confrontation’ work, stuff like arguing with businesses if things aren’t right, for both of us, because I hate to do it. He deals with the dead mice and things that the cat leaves for us, without being asked, because he knows how much it upsets me.
He’s not perfect by any means. He’s okay but not great at doing his share of housework – he once told me that he thought the housework took ‘about 20 minutes’ each day, which I think is probably because he doesn’t really realise that keeping a house clean and functioning extends beyond dishes, laundry and the occasional vacuum. He refuses to learn how to cook, so I do all of the cooking and if I’m not there he subsists on chicken nuggets. I don’t actually mind being responsible for the cooking, but it is frustrating that he seems to assume that it’s an esoteric skill he could never be expected to master. I injured myself riding home from work the other night, and although he was very good about looking after me and bringing me things and getting me an ice pack and offered to make dinner, it was frustrating when I then suggested microwave bean nachos (thinking it would be the easiest option for him) and he asked me how to make them. Although I’ve actually explained my microwave nacho process to him before (not that it’s particularly complicated), I told him again. Put corn chips on the plate. Put beans on top of them. Put cheese on top of that. Put the plate in the microwave for 3 minutes. He looked at me doubtfully, and I ended up getting up to make dinner myself.
Honestly, none of that bothers me nearly so much as his reluctance to make decisions. I’m more or less fine with doing 100% of the cooking and grocery shopping but I find choosing what to have for dinner every night exhausting. I’ve asked him many times to contribute ideas, but he always shrugs and says “I dunno”. He once said that making suggestions made him feel too much like he was ordering me around, and I do understand that, but at the same time, that’s still putting his feelings above what I’ve expressed that I’ve needed from him. Similarly, he always wants to "go out and do something" on our days off, but never wants to pick an activity, so I end up getting on the computer and researching possibilities. Once we ended up at a literal standstill – I honestly don’t even remember what the decision to be made was, I think he was hungry and grousing about available food options - but I had been making decisions all day and I was tired, and I just refused to decide. So we just... stood there, in the middle of a shopping centre, until I eventually relented.
It’s funny that I’ve written so much more about his flaws than the things he does well, when on balance I think he is actually really good about most of this stuff. Especially compared to many of the descriptions here.
Oh, and (from far above, I am late to this thread)-
The oopsie-into-anal is just so bizarre-- like, good luck with that! Good luck with bumping your dick against my completely non-relaxed anus. Feels good eh. Next time, I'll oopsie-into-anal you and you can break up with me because your feelings and body actually matter.
This reminds me of nothing so much as a “spice up your sex life” article I once read in a men’s magazine at the gym. Their suggestion of anal went something like “put it in the butt. Hers, not yours – don’t worry, fellas!”
posted by lwb at 4:30 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
He’s not perfect by any means. He’s okay but not great at doing his share of housework – he once told me that he thought the housework took ‘about 20 minutes’ each day, which I think is probably because he doesn’t really realise that keeping a house clean and functioning extends beyond dishes, laundry and the occasional vacuum. He refuses to learn how to cook, so I do all of the cooking and if I’m not there he subsists on chicken nuggets. I don’t actually mind being responsible for the cooking, but it is frustrating that he seems to assume that it’s an esoteric skill he could never be expected to master. I injured myself riding home from work the other night, and although he was very good about looking after me and bringing me things and getting me an ice pack and offered to make dinner, it was frustrating when I then suggested microwave bean nachos (thinking it would be the easiest option for him) and he asked me how to make them. Although I’ve actually explained my microwave nacho process to him before (not that it’s particularly complicated), I told him again. Put corn chips on the plate. Put beans on top of them. Put cheese on top of that. Put the plate in the microwave for 3 minutes. He looked at me doubtfully, and I ended up getting up to make dinner myself.
Honestly, none of that bothers me nearly so much as his reluctance to make decisions. I’m more or less fine with doing 100% of the cooking and grocery shopping but I find choosing what to have for dinner every night exhausting. I’ve asked him many times to contribute ideas, but he always shrugs and says “I dunno”. He once said that making suggestions made him feel too much like he was ordering me around, and I do understand that, but at the same time, that’s still putting his feelings above what I’ve expressed that I’ve needed from him. Similarly, he always wants to "go out and do something" on our days off, but never wants to pick an activity, so I end up getting on the computer and researching possibilities. Once we ended up at a literal standstill – I honestly don’t even remember what the decision to be made was, I think he was hungry and grousing about available food options - but I had been making decisions all day and I was tired, and I just refused to decide. So we just... stood there, in the middle of a shopping centre, until I eventually relented.
It’s funny that I’ve written so much more about his flaws than the things he does well, when on balance I think he is actually really good about most of this stuff. Especially compared to many of the descriptions here.
Oh, and (from far above, I am late to this thread)-
The oopsie-into-anal is just so bizarre-- like, good luck with that! Good luck with bumping your dick against my completely non-relaxed anus. Feels good eh. Next time, I'll oopsie-into-anal you and you can break up with me because your feelings and body actually matter.
This reminds me of nothing so much as a “spice up your sex life” article I once read in a men’s magazine at the gym. Their suggestion of anal went something like “put it in the butt. Hers, not yours – don’t worry, fellas!”
posted by lwb at 4:30 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
He looked at me doubtfully, and I ended up getting up to make dinner myself.
I hope you only made YOUR dinner, and not his.
posted by JanetLand at 6:34 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
I hope you only made YOUR dinner, and not his.
posted by JanetLand at 6:34 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
The story above how the poster's grandmother dealt with gropers reminded me of some family tales I've heard about my grandmother Swan's mother. From what I've heard, my great-grandfather was something of an asshole. He gave all his sons two given names each (first name and a middle name), but my grandmother and her sisters only had one name each because they were only girls and why bother giving girls a second name? He took my grandmother out of school after the fifth grade so she could stay home and help with the housework. (My grandmother's lack of education had far-reaching ramifications for my family that last to this day.) He expected his daughters to work for him for nothing as long as they lived with him, while he paid his sons for working for him, or paid for their educations or apprenticeships so they could take up another line of work.
My great-grandmother wasn't one to put up with everything, though. My grandmother told a story of how, one morning during breakfast, she slapped their son William for something he had done. (I'm not on board with corporal punishment, but it seems important to note that this story took place circa 1915.) My great-grandfather turned to her and said, menacingly, "Don't you ever slap William again." My great-grandmother flared up at that and said, "Very well! But if I can't discipline him, I am not going to look after him. You take him out to the barn with you and look after him there." She then promptly bundled William up in his hat and coat and mittens and sent him off to the barn with his father. William was then only about two. I'm sure most of you know exactly how much work one gets done while looking after a toddler. It wasn't half an hour later that the kitchen door suddenly opened, and without a word, my great-grandfather shoved William inside, slammed the door shut, and went back to work. He didn't interfere again with my great-grandmother's management of their children.
There's another story of how my great-grandmother snapped at my great-grandfather for coming into the house with his barn boots on and tracking up the floor. He snapped back, "It's my house and I'll wear my boots in it if I want to." Her response to that was to catch up her pail of dirty mop water and douse him with it in a gloriously "MESS UP MY CLEAN FLOOR AND I'LL MESS YOU UP" retributive move. The story gets even funnier when you know that he was a large man and she was tiny. Theirs was a contentious marriage, though I'd say the fact that they had 13 children suggests that they couldn't have fought all the time. Still, I'm sure it was bad enough. My great-grandmother was widowed in her late forties and never married again, though she had suitors, because, as she put it, she'd "had enough of men".
posted by orange swan at 6:35 AM on July 30, 2015 [33 favorites]
My great-grandmother wasn't one to put up with everything, though. My grandmother told a story of how, one morning during breakfast, she slapped their son William for something he had done. (I'm not on board with corporal punishment, but it seems important to note that this story took place circa 1915.) My great-grandfather turned to her and said, menacingly, "Don't you ever slap William again." My great-grandmother flared up at that and said, "Very well! But if I can't discipline him, I am not going to look after him. You take him out to the barn with you and look after him there." She then promptly bundled William up in his hat and coat and mittens and sent him off to the barn with his father. William was then only about two. I'm sure most of you know exactly how much work one gets done while looking after a toddler. It wasn't half an hour later that the kitchen door suddenly opened, and without a word, my great-grandfather shoved William inside, slammed the door shut, and went back to work. He didn't interfere again with my great-grandmother's management of their children.
There's another story of how my great-grandmother snapped at my great-grandfather for coming into the house with his barn boots on and tracking up the floor. He snapped back, "It's my house and I'll wear my boots in it if I want to." Her response to that was to catch up her pail of dirty mop water and douse him with it in a gloriously "MESS UP MY CLEAN FLOOR AND I'LL MESS YOU UP" retributive move. The story gets even funnier when you know that he was a large man and she was tiny. Theirs was a contentious marriage, though I'd say the fact that they had 13 children suggests that they couldn't have fought all the time. Still, I'm sure it was bad enough. My great-grandmother was widowed in her late forties and never married again, though she had suitors, because, as she put it, she'd "had enough of men".
posted by orange swan at 6:35 AM on July 30, 2015 [33 favorites]
I'm so happy I finally found this post and all of the comments. It's just.... Yes. So much yes. Oh my god yes. I started reading on my lunch break at work and wanted to go out to my car and cry with relief that I'm not alone. And then just cry more because it sucks.
I'm a scientist, and I work with all men in my group. When I have to take off work to get the dog to the vet, or to be with my mom while my stepdad is in surgery.... They don't. Get.it. Why would I have to do that? I want to scream at the top of my lungs "because I don't have a wife! I'm the wife! " My husband thinks I'm just a crazy worrier. It's just that I care about all the little shit that needs to happen for our lives to work. He wouldn't know- he's never had to care about that stuff, some woman's always done it for him.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 6:38 AM on July 30, 2015 [31 favorites]
I'm a scientist, and I work with all men in my group. When I have to take off work to get the dog to the vet, or to be with my mom while my stepdad is in surgery.... They don't. Get.it. Why would I have to do that? I want to scream at the top of my lungs "because I don't have a wife! I'm the wife! " My husband thinks I'm just a crazy worrier. It's just that I care about all the little shit that needs to happen for our lives to work. He wouldn't know- he's never had to care about that stuff, some woman's always done it for him.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 6:38 AM on July 30, 2015 [31 favorites]
the fact that they had 13 children suggests that they couldn't have fought all the time.
Without coming from any insight into your grandmother personally, it might also mean she (or women of her time) didn't have much of a say in how often sex happened - this was true for many women who had big families. There was so much rhetoric, both religious and secular/psychological, before the second wave of feminism about how sex was a man's right and his biological need, that his needs were stronger than yours, that you needed to give them what they asked for or there'd be consequences (he'd leave you, he'd have someone on the side, he'd drink), etc. Submitting to even unwanted sex was overtly part of the prescriptive rhetoric of being a good wife. Since there was also no legal structure acknowledging that rape could happen within marriage, and often few restrictions against violence/coercion in marriage, there was just a lot of reproductive sex going on that, in today's terms, would fall into a gray consent area.
posted by Miko at 7:39 AM on July 30, 2015 [41 favorites]
Without coming from any insight into your grandmother personally, it might also mean she (or women of her time) didn't have much of a say in how often sex happened - this was true for many women who had big families. There was so much rhetoric, both religious and secular/psychological, before the second wave of feminism about how sex was a man's right and his biological need, that his needs were stronger than yours, that you needed to give them what they asked for or there'd be consequences (he'd leave you, he'd have someone on the side, he'd drink), etc. Submitting to even unwanted sex was overtly part of the prescriptive rhetoric of being a good wife. Since there was also no legal structure acknowledging that rape could happen within marriage, and often few restrictions against violence/coercion in marriage, there was just a lot of reproductive sex going on that, in today's terms, would fall into a gray consent area.
posted by Miko at 7:39 AM on July 30, 2015 [41 favorites]
I was just coming in to say what Miko did. Considering Donald Trump's lawyer has said there's no such thing as rape within marriage in 2015 imagine what the situation for a wife was like a hundred years ago. Sex was most definitely an unpaid labour that was demanded and expected, and in a time of limited access to birth control.
posted by billiebee at 7:53 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 7:53 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's an obvious piece of evidence, but it speaks worlds that as soon as women had the technology to control the birth rate, they immediately did.
posted by Miko at 8:07 AM on July 30, 2015 [59 favorites]
posted by Miko at 8:07 AM on July 30, 2015 [59 favorites]
I hope it's not making too light of a very serious subject, but my wife's grandmother Lillianne was the oldest of 18 children (Grandma Lily had her first child the same day that her mother had her final child), but when discussing her prodigious parents, she would always note, in her adorably thick French-Canadian accent, that her mother "was the passionate one." I used to think it was just a funny little slightly-too-intimate peek into their family dynamic, but now I wonder if she wasn't trying to euphemistically reassure people that her father wasn't in the habit of forcing himself on her mother.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:16 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 8:16 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
> He once said that making suggestions made him feel too much like he was ordering me around, and I do understand that
No, that's typical male bullshit. One of the things humans are best at is rationalization, and men are particularly good at rationalizing why they can't/shouldn't be expected to do things. I don't want to tell you how to deal with your own relationship, but if I were you, I'd say "Well, I wouldn't feel ordered around, I would feel like you were listening to me and helping me out, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd do that." One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit; of course I'm not talking about cases where they live in fear of violence, but about those "normal" relationships in which the guy basically lets the woman do the housework and emotional labor. I'm guessing women tend to be far more worried about the relationship breaking down than men (and thus afraid of putting it at risk by confronting their partner), which makes sense because the guy is likely to have an easier time finding another partner, and he is far more likely to find a woman willing to let him get away with shit than she is to find a guy who's significantly better than this one.
posted by languagehat at 8:17 AM on July 30, 2015 [26 favorites]
No, that's typical male bullshit. One of the things humans are best at is rationalization, and men are particularly good at rationalizing why they can't/shouldn't be expected to do things. I don't want to tell you how to deal with your own relationship, but if I were you, I'd say "Well, I wouldn't feel ordered around, I would feel like you were listening to me and helping me out, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd do that." One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit; of course I'm not talking about cases where they live in fear of violence, but about those "normal" relationships in which the guy basically lets the woman do the housework and emotional labor. I'm guessing women tend to be far more worried about the relationship breaking down than men (and thus afraid of putting it at risk by confronting their partner), which makes sense because the guy is likely to have an easier time finding another partner, and he is far more likely to find a woman willing to let him get away with shit than she is to find a guy who's significantly better than this one.
posted by languagehat at 8:17 AM on July 30, 2015 [26 favorites]
> He once said that making suggestions made him feel too much like he was ordering me around, and I do understand that
No, that's typical male bullshit.
It is not necessarily a bullshit rationalization. He may well feel that way. The problem is that it's irrelevant, and it makes that feeling - however well intentioned - her problem. If there becomes a textbook on emotional labor this could be one of the very first examples of ironic EL. Gosh wife, I would love to participate in a way that would make your life easier. However, to do so would conflict with my own internal metric on sexism. So in order to continue feeling like an ally I must instead turf this problem on to you.
posted by phearlez at 8:33 AM on July 30, 2015 [40 favorites]
No, that's typical male bullshit.
It is not necessarily a bullshit rationalization. He may well feel that way. The problem is that it's irrelevant, and it makes that feeling - however well intentioned - her problem. If there becomes a textbook on emotional labor this could be one of the very first examples of ironic EL. Gosh wife, I would love to participate in a way that would make your life easier. However, to do so would conflict with my own internal metric on sexism. So in order to continue feeling like an ally I must instead turf this problem on to you.
posted by phearlez at 8:33 AM on July 30, 2015 [40 favorites]
." One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit; of course I'm not talking about cases where they live in fear of violence, but about those "normal" relationships in which the guy basically lets the woman do the housework and emotional labor.
languagehat, it's partially that she may be more worried about finding a better partner than him. It's more likely that several issues are involved--she does want a partner, even an often-exhausting one; she wants access to sex without negotiating all the details every time, just like he does; she wants the basic safety/convenience of not living alone (there's someone to notice if the stove is left on; someone to fetch a broom if she drops a glass in the kitchen; someone to help move large appliances around when necessary, etc.) without, again, negotiating boundaries and fretting about her personal safety as she would with a random stranger roommate.
And there's the possibility that not having a partner will, as mentioned, get her odd looks and comments and "hey howcome you don't have a boyfriend/husband; you're not one of those freaky lesbian separatists, are you" from family and friends.
You're also seeing selection bias--the topic is about UEL, so there are plenty of examples of that, and few of "I got together with X and we had great communication but after a few months realized we had no spark, so we parted amicably."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:52 AM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
languagehat, it's partially that she may be more worried about finding a better partner than him. It's more likely that several issues are involved--she does want a partner, even an often-exhausting one; she wants access to sex without negotiating all the details every time, just like he does; she wants the basic safety/convenience of not living alone (there's someone to notice if the stove is left on; someone to fetch a broom if she drops a glass in the kitchen; someone to help move large appliances around when necessary, etc.) without, again, negotiating boundaries and fretting about her personal safety as she would with a random stranger roommate.
And there's the possibility that not having a partner will, as mentioned, get her odd looks and comments and "hey howcome you don't have a boyfriend/husband; you're not one of those freaky lesbian separatists, are you" from family and friends.
You're also seeing selection bias--the topic is about UEL, so there are plenty of examples of that, and few of "I got together with X and we had great communication but after a few months realized we had no spark, so we parted amicably."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:52 AM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit
one of the biggest reasons i love this conversation is how many women are realizing, maybe for the first time, what words to use to describe the imbalance they've felt their entire lives. we put up with this bullshit because we have no models of it going differently. when women talk about this sort of thing amongst ourselves it almost always ends up with "well, what are you going to do? even feminist men are men..." i lucked into a relationship with a guy who is better at this than most and it was a long time into the relationships before i could even put into words how nice it was - because i just kept waiting for the shoe to drop like it always had before. i came out of the womb expected to do all the emotional labor - when was i to learn that i could demand more? and even if i realized that, where was i to find it?
posted by nadawi at 9:01 AM on July 30, 2015 [45 favorites]
one of the biggest reasons i love this conversation is how many women are realizing, maybe for the first time, what words to use to describe the imbalance they've felt their entire lives. we put up with this bullshit because we have no models of it going differently. when women talk about this sort of thing amongst ourselves it almost always ends up with "well, what are you going to do? even feminist men are men..." i lucked into a relationship with a guy who is better at this than most and it was a long time into the relationships before i could even put into words how nice it was - because i just kept waiting for the shoe to drop like it always had before. i came out of the womb expected to do all the emotional labor - when was i to learn that i could demand more? and even if i realized that, where was i to find it?
posted by nadawi at 9:01 AM on July 30, 2015 [45 favorites]
than she is to find a guy who's significantly better than this one.
I mean yeah, I think that's pretty much it, for me. I love my SO, and I'm also aware (through daily interactions, through the books I read for my sociology degree, and now through this thread) of how pervasive this stuff is. Honestly, the odds are against me finding another partner that is both as otherwise compatible with me, and is significantly better about this stuff.
I do think I am better off in my relationship than I would be out of it. My SO is a great support to me in many ways. It's nice to come home to someone that loves you. Which is not to say that we can't work to improve imbalances in our relationship, which is one of the reasons it's so nice that this thread exists to highlight and give some substance to the vague feelings of inequity.
posted by lwb at 9:03 AM on July 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
I mean yeah, I think that's pretty much it, for me. I love my SO, and I'm also aware (through daily interactions, through the books I read for my sociology degree, and now through this thread) of how pervasive this stuff is. Honestly, the odds are against me finding another partner that is both as otherwise compatible with me, and is significantly better about this stuff.
I do think I am better off in my relationship than I would be out of it. My SO is a great support to me in many ways. It's nice to come home to someone that loves you. Which is not to say that we can't work to improve imbalances in our relationship, which is one of the reasons it's so nice that this thread exists to highlight and give some substance to the vague feelings of inequity.
posted by lwb at 9:03 AM on July 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
> It is not necessarily a bullshit rationalization. He may well feel that way.
I didn't say he didn't! Another thing people are great at is believing their own bullshit.
> You're also seeing selection bias--the topic is about UEL, so there are plenty of examples of that, and few of "I got together with X and we had great communication but after a few months realized we had no spark, so we parted amicably."
While this is true, the situation I'm ruing is certainly very common, and more importantly the one you describe, however common, is not a problem—it's like saying "Well, sure, people get run over at this intersection, but think of all the people who don't!" (Which is probably actually a frequent defense by city fathers reluctant to put in a stoplight.)
> we put up with this bullshit because we have no models of it going differently
That's inexpressibly sad, and I'm sorry I needed to be reminded of it.
posted by languagehat at 9:06 AM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I didn't say he didn't! Another thing people are great at is believing their own bullshit.
> You're also seeing selection bias--the topic is about UEL, so there are plenty of examples of that, and few of "I got together with X and we had great communication but after a few months realized we had no spark, so we parted amicably."
While this is true, the situation I'm ruing is certainly very common, and more importantly the one you describe, however common, is not a problem—it's like saying "Well, sure, people get run over at this intersection, but think of all the people who don't!" (Which is probably actually a frequent defense by city fathers reluctant to put in a stoplight.)
> we put up with this bullshit because we have no models of it going differently
That's inexpressibly sad, and I'm sorry I needed to be reminded of it.
posted by languagehat at 9:06 AM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
she wants the basic safety/convenience of not living alone (there's someone to notice if the stove is left on; someone to fetch a broom if she drops a glass in the kitchen; someone to help move large appliances around when necessary, etc.)
As a somewhat anxious person this speaks to me on a deep level actually. I fret a lot more about things like the stove if my SO isn't home/won't be home for some time, because there's no backup. Like, if he's there, I can relax a little because it's not just my burden to make sure that everything is okay. If he's not there, even I know that it's just my anxiety telling me to constantly check the stove, I do it anyway because "what if the cat somehow bumped something and a fire starts and oh my god what if I can't remember how to work the fire extinguisher?" So in some ways he removes that burden from me just by his presence, without actively doing anything.
posted by lwb at 9:10 AM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
As a somewhat anxious person this speaks to me on a deep level actually. I fret a lot more about things like the stove if my SO isn't home/won't be home for some time, because there's no backup. Like, if he's there, I can relax a little because it's not just my burden to make sure that everything is okay. If he's not there, even I know that it's just my anxiety telling me to constantly check the stove, I do it anyway because "what if the cat somehow bumped something and a fire starts and oh my god what if I can't remember how to work the fire extinguisher?" So in some ways he removes that burden from me just by his presence, without actively doing anything.
posted by lwb at 9:10 AM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, we fall in love with individuals, not genders, and we try to make things work with them. Since there isn't an enormous dating pool of pre-certified, feminist men, it's often true that the genuine affection you feel for someone, combined with the fact that their behavior is the social norm, overrides the exhausting parts of continuous education and of the resigned sorrow of just giving up on a lot of the battles. Companionship is important and vital for those who want it, not just convenient (this is one of the kinds of knowledge women have stewarded over the centuries). We understand this and try to work within it to make things better. It gets easier to do that work when we're more supported and can see other models.
posted by Miko at 9:22 AM on July 30, 2015 [49 favorites]
posted by Miko at 9:22 AM on July 30, 2015 [49 favorites]
GAH YOU GUYS a dear relative of mine got married this weekend, and in her vows explicitly mentioned and thanked her husband for his ability and willingness to help her build an equitable home, and specifically, for the huge amount of scut work he does daily to keep their household running. It was the only part of the ceremony where I cried!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:29 AM on July 30, 2015 [52 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:29 AM on July 30, 2015 [52 favorites]
languagehat: One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit
That's because most of us have been trained to do so, from a very early age. It probably starts with things like 'boys will be boys' and 'he only does that because he likes you'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:53 AM on July 30, 2015 [26 favorites]
That's because most of us have been trained to do so, from a very early age. It probably starts with things like 'boys will be boys' and 'he only does that because he likes you'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:53 AM on July 30, 2015 [26 favorites]
Yea, I've dated like probably three guys who were all decent, would probably call themselves "feminist" guys. They were better than your average guy. They allll had trouble with this stuff. They all complained about how I didn't give them the "benefit of the doubt" when it came to sexism, even though I entered into each relationship giving and giving the benefit of the doubt, until I was slowly demoralized and disillusioned over time. There really is no alternative to putting up with this stuff other than find a one-in-a-million lottery winner or be alone. With my current guy, I put up with it out of love.
posted by easter queen at 9:57 AM on July 30, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 9:57 AM on July 30, 2015 [20 favorites]
the genuine affection you feel for someone, combined with the fact that their behavior is the social norm
This, too. It's basically a sophisticated form of cultural gaslighting.
posted by easter queen at 9:58 AM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
This, too. It's basically a sophisticated form of cultural gaslighting.
posted by easter queen at 9:58 AM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit; of course I'm not talking about cases where they live in fear of violence, but about those "normal" relationships in which the guy basically lets the woman do the housework and emotional labor. I'm guessing women tend to be far more worried about the relationship breaking down than men (and thus afraid of putting it at risk by confronting their partner), which makes sense because the guy is likely to have an easier time finding another partner, and he is far more likely to find a woman willing to let him get away with shit than she is to find a guy who's significantly better than this one.
If you're raised to think this is normal - and the wider culture continuously confirms that "boys will be boys" - you feel like you have no option but to put up with "male bullshit" unless you want to be single. It's also very, very normal for women to feel like it's their fault that men are acting like this (cf. rape culture). Women are told they are not using the right words and motivating their man in the right way. Or they're told that because he makes more money, he shouldn't have to do [task], and the woman is made to feel selfish for asking.
posted by desjardins at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2015 [33 favorites]
If you're raised to think this is normal - and the wider culture continuously confirms that "boys will be boys" - you feel like you have no option but to put up with "male bullshit" unless you want to be single. It's also very, very normal for women to feel like it's their fault that men are acting like this (cf. rape culture). Women are told they are not using the right words and motivating their man in the right way. Or they're told that because he makes more money, he shouldn't have to do [task], and the woman is made to feel selfish for asking.
posted by desjardins at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2015 [33 favorites]
men are particularly good at rationalizing why they can't/shouldn't be expected to do things
This is so, so, so true in my life. The rationalizing about EVERYTHING. I just don't have the energy to fight through the tidal wave of verbiage, the denials, the deflections, the distractions, the twists and turns of logic, the tit-for-tat. I get lost in the maze and only realize days or even weeks later what actually happened. I can't tell you how exhausting it is, I could weep just thinking about it. If I could find a way to simply be heard without going through all of this. And the sad thing is that it would take so much less energy from both of us. Yes, it takes effort to think about your life and change to make it better, but surely not as much as it takes to constantly deny reality? That must be exhausting too.
it's often true that the genuine affection you feel for someone, combined with the fact that their behavior is the social norm, overrides the exhausting parts of continuous education and of the resigned sorrow of just giving up on a lot of the battles. Companionship is important and vital, not just convenient (this is one of the kinds of knowledge women have stewarded over the centuries). We understand this and try to work within it to make things better. It gets easier to do that work when we're more supported and can see other models.
I don't even know what the social norm is. Who are the men I've seen close up? My father, my mother's several husbands, one long-term boyfriend, and my husband. All any of us can know is what we've actually seen. And I think that women want so much for everything to be okay. I do. I'm amazed at how much I do. Plus, it's kind of a boiling frog situation. As amply described above, most men are willing to listen to you in the beginning. By the time things change, you realize that there is no sunk cost "fallacy" in long-term relationships. The sunk costs are real. This person is a part of you now, you've built a life together, and it's worth it to try, and try, and try, and try, and try to make yourself seen, to make yourself heard.
Plus, and I bet in my demographic I'm not alone in this--I am the child of parents who each had numerous failed marriages and long-term relationships. Failure to them was staying in a relationship that wasn't totally fulfilling. Failure to me is bailing on a relationship merely because it's not totally fulfilling. There's no right answer there but one definition leads to one course of action, and the other leads to a different one.
posted by HotToddy at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
This is so, so, so true in my life. The rationalizing about EVERYTHING. I just don't have the energy to fight through the tidal wave of verbiage, the denials, the deflections, the distractions, the twists and turns of logic, the tit-for-tat. I get lost in the maze and only realize days or even weeks later what actually happened. I can't tell you how exhausting it is, I could weep just thinking about it. If I could find a way to simply be heard without going through all of this. And the sad thing is that it would take so much less energy from both of us. Yes, it takes effort to think about your life and change to make it better, but surely not as much as it takes to constantly deny reality? That must be exhausting too.
it's often true that the genuine affection you feel for someone, combined with the fact that their behavior is the social norm, overrides the exhausting parts of continuous education and of the resigned sorrow of just giving up on a lot of the battles. Companionship is important and vital, not just convenient (this is one of the kinds of knowledge women have stewarded over the centuries). We understand this and try to work within it to make things better. It gets easier to do that work when we're more supported and can see other models.
I don't even know what the social norm is. Who are the men I've seen close up? My father, my mother's several husbands, one long-term boyfriend, and my husband. All any of us can know is what we've actually seen. And I think that women want so much for everything to be okay. I do. I'm amazed at how much I do. Plus, it's kind of a boiling frog situation. As amply described above, most men are willing to listen to you in the beginning. By the time things change, you realize that there is no sunk cost "fallacy" in long-term relationships. The sunk costs are real. This person is a part of you now, you've built a life together, and it's worth it to try, and try, and try, and try, and try to make yourself seen, to make yourself heard.
Plus, and I bet in my demographic I'm not alone in this--I am the child of parents who each had numerous failed marriages and long-term relationships. Failure to them was staying in a relationship that wasn't totally fulfilling. Failure to me is bailing on a relationship merely because it's not totally fulfilling. There's no right answer there but one definition leads to one course of action, and the other leads to a different one.
posted by HotToddy at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but "you should do/say X to motivate your man to do [thing he should already be doing]" is not that far off from "in order to prevent rape, you should or shouldn't do [blah]." The onus is continually on the woman to modify her behavior instead of on the man.
posted by desjardins at 10:04 AM on July 30, 2015 [45 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 10:04 AM on July 30, 2015 [45 favorites]
By the time things change, you realize that there is no sunk cost "fallacy" in long-term relationships. The sunk costs are real.
While not disputing the sentiment of this statement at all, I do feel the need to point out that the "fallacy" part of the sunk cost fallacy isn't the sunk costs. The fallacy is the idea that because the sunk costs exist, it is necessarily better or mandatory to keep on sinking them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2015 [16 favorites]
While not disputing the sentiment of this statement at all, I do feel the need to point out that the "fallacy" part of the sunk cost fallacy isn't the sunk costs. The fallacy is the idea that because the sunk costs exist, it is necessarily better or mandatory to keep on sinking them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2015 [16 favorites]
I've been thinking about couples' descent from passion to dead bed since reading Lyn Never's comment that "women are biologically disinclined to have sex with their caretake-ees so, you know...if you act like a toddler don't be surprised if you get the sex life of one." And she later observes that "I'm not sure men have the same neuron-level aversion, to children or mothers... [H]ow can you want me to literally take on the tasks of a child's mother to you and still want me to touch your stuff? Why is that not repulsive? That Oedipus shit is some powerful stuff, apparently.
Well, for some she's probably right. But a lot of men don't want to have sex with their mommies either. And the problem becomes symmetrical in ways that are very difficult to understand or fix for either partner.
When a sexual relationship becomes a sick system, there are so many layers of pain with so many causes--disproportionate EL burden and mommy-child revulsion among them--that it just can't be parsed or disentangled anymore. Fear takes over that opening the conversation will just make it worse, especially if one partner attributes the lost sex life to negative reaction to past sharing about fetishes, abuse, not being in the mood, or whatever. People give up, start fresh via affairs, take refuge in porn, rely on masturbation, etc. And too, the partner with the EL skills just can't bear to do the heavy lifting on something so fraught and probably doesn't have the combination of facilitation skills and objectivity required to pull it off anyway: it's a Relationship 900 level problem that most therapists can't even handle.
Via inner monologue one may vow that "tonight's the night we break the pattern and push through the barrier so we can be healed!" or even choose to resort to the (unacceptable to crone island denizens) "fake it 'til you make it!" approach. But failure is likely and, moreover, it's just too hard, for especially anyone who wants to live authentically, especially after a difficult day/weeks/months/years of emotional labor.
Or, on preview, as Hot Toddy said: I just don't have the energy to fight through the tidal wave of verbiage, the denials, the deflections, the distractions, the twists and turns of logic, the tit-for-tat.
posted by carmicha at 10:06 AM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
Well, for some she's probably right. But a lot of men don't want to have sex with their mommies either. And the problem becomes symmetrical in ways that are very difficult to understand or fix for either partner.
When a sexual relationship becomes a sick system, there are so many layers of pain with so many causes--disproportionate EL burden and mommy-child revulsion among them--that it just can't be parsed or disentangled anymore. Fear takes over that opening the conversation will just make it worse, especially if one partner attributes the lost sex life to negative reaction to past sharing about fetishes, abuse, not being in the mood, or whatever. People give up, start fresh via affairs, take refuge in porn, rely on masturbation, etc. And too, the partner with the EL skills just can't bear to do the heavy lifting on something so fraught and probably doesn't have the combination of facilitation skills and objectivity required to pull it off anyway: it's a Relationship 900 level problem that most therapists can't even handle.
Via inner monologue one may vow that "tonight's the night we break the pattern and push through the barrier so we can be healed!" or even choose to resort to the (unacceptable to crone island denizens) "fake it 'til you make it!" approach. But failure is likely and, moreover, it's just too hard, for especially anyone who wants to live authentically, especially after a difficult day/weeks/months/years of emotional labor.
Or, on preview, as Hot Toddy said: I just don't have the energy to fight through the tidal wave of verbiage, the denials, the deflections, the distractions, the twists and turns of logic, the tit-for-tat.
posted by carmicha at 10:06 AM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
The fallacy is the idea that because the sunk costs exist, it is necessarily better or mandatory to keep on sinking them.
Yes, that was inaccurately put, thank you. But this is what I mean. It's not like selling an underperforming mutual fund. It may in fact be better to hold.
posted by HotToddy at 10:09 AM on July 30, 2015
Yes, that was inaccurately put, thank you. But this is what I mean. It's not like selling an underperforming mutual fund. It may in fact be better to hold.
posted by HotToddy at 10:09 AM on July 30, 2015
It's not like selling an underperforming mutual fund. It may in fact be better to hold.
Right--it occurs to me that often, though, people (women especially, but men too) are encouraged to see the sunk costs as greater than they are. Take for example the multitude of AskMe threads in which people are desperate to hang on to, fix, otherwise wrangle a problematic relationship because they have invested so much--over the past 5 or 6 months. It's like a Potemkin village of a long-term committed relationship that is realistic enough to keep people feeling stuck, and on some level it seems like we're all very encouraged to build that village as soon as possible. And then at some point it develops from a false sense of a committed life together into a real, tangibly committed life, but maybe it should not have, and would not have, in the absence of that early artificial commitment.
Now I'm trying to think of where the artificial appearance of sunk costs comes from, because I'm pretty sure it's a message being delivered on subspace to all of us somehow. Maybe it's really just what the Relationship Escalator looks like while you're on the very bottom steps.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:22 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Right--it occurs to me that often, though, people (women especially, but men too) are encouraged to see the sunk costs as greater than they are. Take for example the multitude of AskMe threads in which people are desperate to hang on to, fix, otherwise wrangle a problematic relationship because they have invested so much--over the past 5 or 6 months. It's like a Potemkin village of a long-term committed relationship that is realistic enough to keep people feeling stuck, and on some level it seems like we're all very encouraged to build that village as soon as possible. And then at some point it develops from a false sense of a committed life together into a real, tangibly committed life, but maybe it should not have, and would not have, in the absence of that early artificial commitment.
Now I'm trying to think of where the artificial appearance of sunk costs comes from, because I'm pretty sure it's a message being delivered on subspace to all of us somehow. Maybe it's really just what the Relationship Escalator looks like while you're on the very bottom steps.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:22 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
There's certainly a complication to the bullshit in that it is systemic. I know lots of women who take on more of the emotional labor because their male partners make and will always make more money. There is a cost to the men and to the relationship, often in terms of doing "above and beyond" work behavior that actively discourages fair participation in domestic life and child care.
I have rabidly feminist friends who, when the actual cost of childcare hit the actual fan of their lives, sat down and did the math and the family decision was that she had to bunt and he had to hustle because that $2500-4K/month for daycare a) could be put to better use, b) wasn't actually worth the child-raising time and flexibility sacrificed for some shitty job working for some asshole company, c) might be more than her take-home pay even with tax credits, d) might not be worth the quality of the childcare available.
And that situation can get very, very complicated when the two of them do not agree on the valuation of each person's contribution. I see mom friends fly into a white hot rage when he walks in the door and doesn't appreciate her immediately handing him a child and going to use the toilet by herself finally, and I see dad friends walk in the door and just want some time between ass-kissing all day and ass-wiping all night. How do you fix that? How do you do that math?
And for every year of this arrangement, she becomes less and less employable and more and more dependent on him for support, while he becomes less and less involved in the running of the house and lives. Even people who know this is bullshit can't necessarily avoid it, this is the trade-off that is feasible even if it's not the one they want.
And then, if you flip the script, men don't have a framework for that because it's so off-piste. There's no model, no framework, and certainly no sense of "I'm making no financial contribution so I better pay my way in effort" like women have.
I see it in my husband (we don't even have kids), who hasn't had a full-time job in over 5 years and still had to be cajoled and threatened to get him to do anything at home, and now that he's working some all he can think about is work-work-work gotta hustle more work. I even saw him say something on Facebook the other day like "here's a sample of my work, and I'm trying to fill every hour of my day with more work so if you have work I'll do work for you" and I'll be honest, I'm still reeling. No sir, you may fill 8 - maybe 10-12 some days given the standards of your industry - hours of your day with work, but you have other fucking things to do too. A paycheck is not the sum total of your obligation. I'm sure he thinks he was saying a good thing, and he has no idea how pissed off I am (nor did I, to be fair, until just now) but that's the mindset in a nutshell.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:27 AM on July 30, 2015 [79 favorites]
I have rabidly feminist friends who, when the actual cost of childcare hit the actual fan of their lives, sat down and did the math and the family decision was that she had to bunt and he had to hustle because that $2500-4K/month for daycare a) could be put to better use, b) wasn't actually worth the child-raising time and flexibility sacrificed for some shitty job working for some asshole company, c) might be more than her take-home pay even with tax credits, d) might not be worth the quality of the childcare available.
And that situation can get very, very complicated when the two of them do not agree on the valuation of each person's contribution. I see mom friends fly into a white hot rage when he walks in the door and doesn't appreciate her immediately handing him a child and going to use the toilet by herself finally, and I see dad friends walk in the door and just want some time between ass-kissing all day and ass-wiping all night. How do you fix that? How do you do that math?
And for every year of this arrangement, she becomes less and less employable and more and more dependent on him for support, while he becomes less and less involved in the running of the house and lives. Even people who know this is bullshit can't necessarily avoid it, this is the trade-off that is feasible even if it's not the one they want.
And then, if you flip the script, men don't have a framework for that because it's so off-piste. There's no model, no framework, and certainly no sense of "I'm making no financial contribution so I better pay my way in effort" like women have.
I see it in my husband (we don't even have kids), who hasn't had a full-time job in over 5 years and still had to be cajoled and threatened to get him to do anything at home, and now that he's working some all he can think about is work-work-work gotta hustle more work. I even saw him say something on Facebook the other day like "here's a sample of my work, and I'm trying to fill every hour of my day with more work so if you have work I'll do work for you" and I'll be honest, I'm still reeling. No sir, you may fill 8 - maybe 10-12 some days given the standards of your industry - hours of your day with work, but you have other fucking things to do too. A paycheck is not the sum total of your obligation. I'm sure he thinks he was saying a good thing, and he has no idea how pissed off I am (nor did I, to be fair, until just now) but that's the mindset in a nutshell.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:27 AM on July 30, 2015 [79 favorites]
Er, my summary point on that being that even men with more EL facility than my spouse are coming from a socialization that breadwinning is the only winning and therefore the obligation to emotional labor is secondary. The generous paternity leave policies in Scandinavia still aren't often fully taken advantage of, even though pretty much everyone is in agreement on paper that it's best for the child. It's deeply ingrained even in people who know better and want better.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:38 AM on July 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 10:38 AM on July 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
Regarding sunk costs - I think many, many women have stayed in relationships they weren't entirely satisfied with because of the sunk costs thing - because they wanted children. If you're approaching the age where procreation becomes biologically more difficult, or you're thinking about your own personal comfort level with your energy and capacity for children and how that's changing as you age, or any of the reasons you might want to reproduce in the near future, that could be a strong incentive to try to salvage a relationship rather than starting all over again. And it's one that men are probably less likely to feel, since they have a larger temporal window for reproduction and they also aren't bombarded with as many cultural messages about having children being the whole point of their existence. For women who want biological children, the investment of their reproductive years in relationships is a very real cost.
posted by lwb at 10:39 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by lwb at 10:39 AM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
> It's basically a sophisticated form of cultural gaslighting.
Wow, "cultural gaslighting" is a great phrase, thanks for putting it in the toolbag.
posted by languagehat at 10:46 AM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
Wow, "cultural gaslighting" is a great phrase, thanks for putting it in the toolbag.
posted by languagehat at 10:46 AM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit
Because your only other fucking option is to retire to a motherfucking nunnery on Crone Island.
Let me be utterly fucking real with you. As a male feminist, there is probably at least five things you do that create, perpetuate, or enable male bullshit, in your daily life. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're the greatest gift to feminism that ever came with a penis. You are doing at least five things in your life that are inequitable and that make or contribute to some woman, for at least a moment, experiencing despair.
So when you come along with your at best only five things, and are like 'That guy does ten things! Why are you possibly putting up with that!' you do not see that for us, the difference between those five things you do and the ten things he does is not that fucking great, because they all suck. And so we all - all of us, whether knowingly or not - make some kind of extremely complicated calculus, where 'limit of the bullshit we are willing to tolerate' weighs on one side, and 'how much we want hetero sex/partnership/children via penile-implanted sperm' weighs on the other side. And every single time, we see which one is heavier.
It doesn't mean we don't work to change it, because we do. But it means that we live, currently, in the world as it is, not as we want it to be, and must make our decisions in the context of that world.
posted by corb at 10:53 AM on July 30, 2015 [96 favorites]
Because your only other fucking option is to retire to a motherfucking nunnery on Crone Island.
Let me be utterly fucking real with you. As a male feminist, there is probably at least five things you do that create, perpetuate, or enable male bullshit, in your daily life. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're the greatest gift to feminism that ever came with a penis. You are doing at least five things in your life that are inequitable and that make or contribute to some woman, for at least a moment, experiencing despair.
So when you come along with your at best only five things, and are like 'That guy does ten things! Why are you possibly putting up with that!' you do not see that for us, the difference between those five things you do and the ten things he does is not that fucking great, because they all suck. And so we all - all of us, whether knowingly or not - make some kind of extremely complicated calculus, where 'limit of the bullshit we are willing to tolerate' weighs on one side, and 'how much we want hetero sex/partnership/children via penile-implanted sperm' weighs on the other side. And every single time, we see which one is heavier.
It doesn't mean we don't work to change it, because we do. But it means that we live, currently, in the world as it is, not as we want it to be, and must make our decisions in the context of that world.
posted by corb at 10:53 AM on July 30, 2015 [96 favorites]
"cultural gaslighting"
Someone told teh fish about the fetid water. Aaaah.
posted by infini at 10:54 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Someone told teh fish about the fetid water. Aaaah.
posted by infini at 10:54 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think many, many women have stayed in relationships they weren't entirely satisfied with because of the sunk costs thing - because they wanted children.
That's an interesting point; I hadn't thought of that as being something that would apply almost immediately in a relationship (as in, "these six months ARE a big investment that I can't afford to throw away"), but then, the kids thing is my blind spot generally.
I still do have the vague sense that there is a narrative about "meet someone --> become super serious ASAP," which gets pushed now but apparently did not used to be pushed, if my mother's utter bafflement at it is any indication. And certainly I have felt that narrative at work in myself as well, despite having no desire for children at all.
...Wanders off with margarita to think some more...
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:55 AM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's an interesting point; I hadn't thought of that as being something that would apply almost immediately in a relationship (as in, "these six months ARE a big investment that I can't afford to throw away"), but then, the kids thing is my blind spot generally.
I still do have the vague sense that there is a narrative about "meet someone --> become super serious ASAP," which gets pushed now but apparently did not used to be pushed, if my mother's utter bafflement at it is any indication. And certainly I have felt that narrative at work in myself as well, despite having no desire for children at all.
...Wanders off with margarita to think some more...
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:55 AM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
I just don't have the energy to fight through the tidal wave of verbiage, the denials, the deflections, the distractions, the twists and turns of logic, the tit-for-tat.
In other words, "sealioning" might have been given a name during GG, but it's always been in the arsenal of grinding women into silence/compliance and then saying "What? What did I say? Women are so SENSITIVE!"
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
In other words, "sealioning" might have been given a name during GG, but it's always been in the arsenal of grinding women into silence/compliance and then saying "What? What did I say? Women are so SENSITIVE!"
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
I totally concur with this, and I was about to post some thoughts about it, but I wasn't sure if it was germane. Even in non-Confucian Asian cultures (and I'm specifically thinking of the Spanish-Catholic-Filipino kinds of families), there's a lot of pressure to remain close to your family through ties of emotional labor bonds. It can be very stifling to some people.
And by some people, I totally mean me.
posted by TrishaLynn at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
And by some people, I totally mean me.
posted by TrishaLynn at 10:56 AM on July 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
We talked a bit waaaay upthread about how mental illness (and other forms of disability, I'm quite sure, but I do not have that lived experience) get elided in these conversations. "Why not leave?" is another place where this happens. The calculations are complicated when one partner is dependent on the other due to a disability - maybe dependent financially, maybe genuinely unable to handle some basic-daily-life stuff on their own, maybe in need of keeping their health insurance, maybe withour family support, etc. It's not like one can just go out tomorrow, apply for disability, get it the next day, get their medical needs sorted out the next week, etc.
That makes the "oh, maybe I should just leave" conversation really fucking different, whether the person thinking of leaving is the one who has a lot of dependency on the healthy partner, or whether it's the healthy partner trying to figure out how the other person is going to manage in the world without her. Or maybe both have illnesses and they switch off those roles. Either way it's really damn complicated on top of all the other very good reasons that anyone is reluctant to leave a relationship.
Probably not so much of a factor in a three-month relationship, but a lot of relationships start out with one arrangement of emotional labor and shift over time, probably back and forth in a variety of ways. By the time you realize the current arrangement is not working, there are a lot of reasons it might be extraordinarily difficult to shift the balance again or to walk away.
posted by Stacey at 10:59 AM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
That makes the "oh, maybe I should just leave" conversation really fucking different, whether the person thinking of leaving is the one who has a lot of dependency on the healthy partner, or whether it's the healthy partner trying to figure out how the other person is going to manage in the world without her. Or maybe both have illnesses and they switch off those roles. Either way it's really damn complicated on top of all the other very good reasons that anyone is reluctant to leave a relationship.
Probably not so much of a factor in a three-month relationship, but a lot of relationships start out with one arrangement of emotional labor and shift over time, probably back and forth in a variety of ways. By the time you realize the current arrangement is not working, there are a lot of reasons it might be extraordinarily difficult to shift the balance again or to walk away.
posted by Stacey at 10:59 AM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
and I'm specifically thinking of the Spanish-Catholic-Filipino kinds of families
*waves frantically on behalf of her and her sister*
We grew up in a stew of Spanish-Catholic-Filipino cultural indoctrination that was only slightly balanced by an American father. Bonus, there was a healthy dose of what was probably mental illness somewhere in the family that raised our mother and all her siblings (who act in very similar ways) but nobody had the knowledge, skill, or understanding to push back against any of it, it was just the way it was (and occasionally we would discover these little historical landmines when somebody would tell a "funny" story that was in actuality DEEPLY DISTURBING). The result was a family that tore itself apart but still managed to transmit a lot of weirdness and expectations about emotional labor and your duty to the family to our generation. It's the trap of family simultaneously being a safety net but never one without significant strings attached. We've only managed to evade some of them by being on the other side of the planet.
posted by PussKillian at 11:21 AM on July 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
*waves frantically on behalf of her and her sister*
We grew up in a stew of Spanish-Catholic-Filipino cultural indoctrination that was only slightly balanced by an American father. Bonus, there was a healthy dose of what was probably mental illness somewhere in the family that raised our mother and all her siblings (who act in very similar ways) but nobody had the knowledge, skill, or understanding to push back against any of it, it was just the way it was (and occasionally we would discover these little historical landmines when somebody would tell a "funny" story that was in actuality DEEPLY DISTURBING). The result was a family that tore itself apart but still managed to transmit a lot of weirdness and expectations about emotional labor and your duty to the family to our generation. It's the trap of family simultaneously being a safety net but never one without significant strings attached. We've only managed to evade some of them by being on the other side of the planet.
posted by PussKillian at 11:21 AM on July 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
Let me be utterly fucking real with you. As a male feminist, there is probably at least five things you do that create, perpetuate, or enable male bullshit, in your daily life. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're the greatest gift to feminism that ever came with a penis. You are doing at least five things in your life that are inequitable and that make or contribute to some woman, for at least a moment, experiencing despair.
YES
YESSSSSSS
I want to rent a billboard just to print this on it even though reading it fills me with such rage.
So many men need to hear this, even if they're not in a position to listen. The constant, low-grade-bull-in-a-china-shop shtick, especially as accompanied by blissfully ignorant, explicitly sex-specific minimization is exactly why I hate it so much whenever a man refers to himself as a feminist. No man is immune, whether he labels himself or not. No man has the right to declare himself "not part of the problem." They don't get it because they don't live with it, and they don't live with it because they don't have to. They say they wish they could understand but they don't, not really. Because the ceaseless bargaining, the weighing out, the constant erasure and moving of our own goalposts? Those are nothing but survival mechanisms to me and so many women I know.
The litany of "but why doesn't she just--" falls away to ashes as soon as you gain even the remotest understanding of the minute-by-minute bargains women need to make just to live. We're at an innate disadvantage in a patriarchal culture, and we can't all afford to invent, build, and then magically whisk ourselves away to separatist communes.
posted by divined by radio at 11:22 AM on July 30, 2015 [71 favorites]
YES
YESSSSSSS
I want to rent a billboard just to print this on it even though reading it fills me with such rage.
So many men need to hear this, even if they're not in a position to listen. The constant, low-grade-bull-in-a-china-shop shtick, especially as accompanied by blissfully ignorant, explicitly sex-specific minimization is exactly why I hate it so much whenever a man refers to himself as a feminist. No man is immune, whether he labels himself or not. No man has the right to declare himself "not part of the problem." They don't get it because they don't live with it, and they don't live with it because they don't have to. They say they wish they could understand but they don't, not really. Because the ceaseless bargaining, the weighing out, the constant erasure and moving of our own goalposts? Those are nothing but survival mechanisms to me and so many women I know.
The litany of "but why doesn't she just--" falls away to ashes as soon as you gain even the remotest understanding of the minute-by-minute bargains women need to make just to live. We're at an innate disadvantage in a patriarchal culture, and we can't all afford to invent, build, and then magically whisk ourselves away to separatist communes.
posted by divined by radio at 11:22 AM on July 30, 2015 [71 favorites]
One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit
Once a relationship develops into a real, tangibly committed life, then it's no longer "oh maybe I should just leave." The sunk cost fallacy assumes that your labors could be more profitably engaged elsewhere, and that's easy enough to determine in the beginning, IF this dynamic has revealed itself, which according to the stories related here it usually doesn't.
But once you've been with someone for most of your adult life, there are both emotional and practical ways that this is very unlikely to be true anymore. If you have meantime acquired an illness or disability, if you own a business together, if you have a special needs child, if you've been out of the labor market to raise your children or because of illness, if you would have to leave your community of friends and family in order to support yourself, if you want to be in a relationship and you're a middle-aged woman in a world where men your age are only interested in younger women, if you don't have any family of your own, etc., etc., that can be why you "so readily" put up with male bullshit.
posted by HotToddy at 11:30 AM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
Once a relationship develops into a real, tangibly committed life, then it's no longer "oh maybe I should just leave." The sunk cost fallacy assumes that your labors could be more profitably engaged elsewhere, and that's easy enough to determine in the beginning, IF this dynamic has revealed itself, which according to the stories related here it usually doesn't.
But once you've been with someone for most of your adult life, there are both emotional and practical ways that this is very unlikely to be true anymore. If you have meantime acquired an illness or disability, if you own a business together, if you have a special needs child, if you've been out of the labor market to raise your children or because of illness, if you would have to leave your community of friends and family in order to support yourself, if you want to be in a relationship and you're a middle-aged woman in a world where men your age are only interested in younger women, if you don't have any family of your own, etc., etc., that can be why you "so readily" put up with male bullshit.
posted by HotToddy at 11:30 AM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
Not to start a big fight but often asking why an [oppressed group] "puts up with" oppression is a privileged expression. It seems like hey, just don't play! You don't have to! But in fact, we do have to play. If we really and truly believe that these issues are systemic and not personal, the reasons for "putting up" are that there are significant costs to purist opposition to the oppression: economic costs, safety costs, costs to self-perception and mental well-being. It's a different topic, but in my teens I was one of those who'd wonder why don't black people just get together and rise up against racism? Answers are obvious. It's deadly. It's counterproductive. That's not the (only) way you end an oppressive system, because that system will absorb your efforts to assert your rights and turn your self-assertion against you. It will require you to suffer. The risks to life, safety, opportunity are too great, and the system is set up to favor the status quo and to demand trade-offs between equitable distribution of resources and individual survival and advancement. That's why it's not just a personal problem, but a political one. Patriarchy is pervasive. It has economic consequences. Emotional consequences. Health, safety, and quality of life consequences. If we reject the system completely we reject even the parts of the system that support and protect us, because there is not (yet) an alternative, healthier system to move toward. Asking why we "put up with" it assumes there are real alternative viable choices that will deliver the same things we need and value. There aren't such choices yet for the majority of women.
posted by Miko at 11:40 AM on July 30, 2015 [89 favorites]
posted by Miko at 11:40 AM on July 30, 2015 [89 favorites]
That's an interesting point; I hadn't thought of that as being something that would apply almost immediately in a relationship (as in, "these six months ARE a big investment that I can't afford to throw away"), but then, the kids thing is my blind spot generally.
I suppose I was thinking mainly of relationships a bit further in than six months, which I think is still early enough in a relationship where many of these issues wouldn't yet be apparent, but it's not just the time that you've been in a relationship. It's also the time you anticipate it will take you to find a new potentially procreative relationship, and the uncertainty of whether that will ever happen.
If you're 37 and you want kids and all the single women you know are struggling to find partners and you know it might be years before you even find a suitable person to date, much less form a relationship and come to an agreement on having kids, you might well decide that the rational thing to do is to stick it out with your current partner, because the alternative is to take a huge risk that you might miss your window entirely.
posted by lwb at 11:43 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
I suppose I was thinking mainly of relationships a bit further in than six months, which I think is still early enough in a relationship where many of these issues wouldn't yet be apparent, but it's not just the time that you've been in a relationship. It's also the time you anticipate it will take you to find a new potentially procreative relationship, and the uncertainty of whether that will ever happen.
If you're 37 and you want kids and all the single women you know are struggling to find partners and you know it might be years before you even find a suitable person to date, much less form a relationship and come to an agreement on having kids, you might well decide that the rational thing to do is to stick it out with your current partner, because the alternative is to take a huge risk that you might miss your window entirely.
posted by lwb at 11:43 AM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
> The constant, low-grade-bull-in-a-china-shop shtick, especially as accompanied by blissfully ignorant, explicitly sex-specific minimization is exactly why I hate it so much whenever a man refers to himself as a feminist. No man is immune, whether he labels himself or not. No man has the right to declare himself "not part of the problem."
That's not what feminist means. It doesn't mean "immune" or "not part of the problem," it means supportive of women's rights and gender equality.
posted by languagehat at 11:46 AM on July 30, 2015 [15 favorites]
That's not what feminist means. It doesn't mean "immune" or "not part of the problem," it means supportive of women's rights and gender equality.
posted by languagehat at 11:46 AM on July 30, 2015 [15 favorites]
Similarly, he always wants to "go out and do something" on our days off, but never wants to pick an activity, so I end up getting on the computer and researching possibilities. Once we ended up at a literal standstill – I honestly don’t even remember what the decision to be made was, I think he was hungry and grousing about available food options - but I had been making decisions all day and I was tired, and I just refused to decide. So we just... stood there, in the middle of a shopping centre, until I eventually relented.
I often associate this with a fragile-male-ego trait, taking one or two shot down suggestions as EVERY SUGGESTION EVER SHOT DOWN. And lol why would i suggest something if you're just going to say no?
This is often visible in that whole "women can't choose a restaurant amirite?" joke-trope you see even "halfway decent" guys trot out constantly.
I don't completely understand where it comes from, but it's something that i was taught from a pretty young age by many older male peers/role models like my father, both grandfathers, uncles, friends fathers, etc. Basically the "i'm not going to choose because you're just going to say no, so you HAVE to choose and i get to say no because that's different".
Like, he doesn't want to suggest something and be shot down, but YOU suggesting stuff and him shooting down is fine because he gets to do the shooting.
Men, apparently, are above being told no. But they sure as fuck get to say no.
And fuckity fuck that shit.
I struggle with this still, but i've been trying reaaaal fucking hard to go "no fuck OFF emptythought you are NOT playing that bullshit game" as soon as i start. I get irked when i see other men doing it too, and it's essentially structurally impossible to call out since it's couple conversation or whatever. The best i can do is suggest something to diffuse the situation if i'm with a friend and their SO and it's happening.
posted by emptythought at 11:47 AM on July 30, 2015 [37 favorites]
I often associate this with a fragile-male-ego trait, taking one or two shot down suggestions as EVERY SUGGESTION EVER SHOT DOWN. And lol why would i suggest something if you're just going to say no?
This is often visible in that whole "women can't choose a restaurant amirite?" joke-trope you see even "halfway decent" guys trot out constantly.
I don't completely understand where it comes from, but it's something that i was taught from a pretty young age by many older male peers/role models like my father, both grandfathers, uncles, friends fathers, etc. Basically the "i'm not going to choose because you're just going to say no, so you HAVE to choose and i get to say no because that's different".
Like, he doesn't want to suggest something and be shot down, but YOU suggesting stuff and him shooting down is fine because he gets to do the shooting.
Men, apparently, are above being told no. But they sure as fuck get to say no.
And fuckity fuck that shit.
I struggle with this still, but i've been trying reaaaal fucking hard to go "no fuck OFF emptythought you are NOT playing that bullshit game" as soon as i start. I get irked when i see other men doing it too, and it's essentially structurally impossible to call out since it's couple conversation or whatever. The best i can do is suggest something to diffuse the situation if i'm with a friend and their SO and it's happening.
posted by emptythought at 11:47 AM on July 30, 2015 [37 favorites]
regarding get super serious ASAP as a thing that seems to happen a lot these days...
...
i don't have a theory yet, but it's definitely been tossing around there and rising to the surface.
I think it's tied in with slut shaming and the Madonna/Whore complex.
I know many guys who are completely befuddled by -and won't date- women who date casually.
This unfortunately means that there are very few het men available that understand that the beginning of dating is a discovery phase and that commitment ideally develops over time and as a conscious choice of both parties.
(Also because they want to get up the sex escalator as quickly as possible, like their damn pants are on fire, but heaven forbid there's anyone else that gets to take the same ride.)
posted by susiswimmer at 11:48 AM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
...
i don't have a theory yet, but it's definitely been tossing around there and rising to the surface.
I think it's tied in with slut shaming and the Madonna/Whore complex.
I know many guys who are completely befuddled by -and won't date- women who date casually.
This unfortunately means that there are very few het men available that understand that the beginning of dating is a discovery phase and that commitment ideally develops over time and as a conscious choice of both parties.
(Also because they want to get up the sex escalator as quickly as possible, like their damn pants are on fire, but heaven forbid there's anyone else that gets to take the same ride.)
posted by susiswimmer at 11:48 AM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
That's not what feminist means. It doesn't mean "immune" or "not part of the problem," it means supportive of women's rights and gender equality.
Is this particular piece of linguistic exactitude helpful? What I am reading is your defensive reaction to her feelings of frustration channeled into critiquing her use of the term "feminism." I understand the "correct" definition of feminism. I also understood the gist of what she meant.
posted by Naamah at 11:56 AM on July 30, 2015 [23 favorites]
IOW: CASE IN POINT.
posted by Naamah at 11:59 AM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Naamah at 11:59 AM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is getting mad at someone for calling themselves feminist when they're imperfect at it helpful?
posted by phearlez at 12:05 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 12:05 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't think that's what anyone is mad about. We're mad that someone might respond to a valid criticism of their privilege-blindness with a nitpick about definitions of "feminist."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:08 PM on July 30, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:08 PM on July 30, 2015 [20 favorites]
> What I am reading is your defensive reaction to her feelings of frustration channeled into critiquing her use of the term "feminism." I understand the "correct" definition of feminism. I also understood the gist of what she meant.
I understood the gist of what she meant too. I also understood that corb's belligerent comment made me feel shitty. I'm not some imaginary chest-beating "male feminist," I'm languagehat, and I'm right here talking with you. If it makes you feel good to make me feel shitty because I'm one of the oppressors, well, I've seen that dynamic in action before. But what I said above, that "the very act of phrasing comments in a nonconfrontational way, trying to be supportive or friendly even if disagreeing, is emotional labor," doesn't only apply to Other People. It applies, or should apply, to all of us.
posted by languagehat at 12:09 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I understood the gist of what she meant too. I also understood that corb's belligerent comment made me feel shitty. I'm not some imaginary chest-beating "male feminist," I'm languagehat, and I'm right here talking with you. If it makes you feel good to make me feel shitty because I'm one of the oppressors, well, I've seen that dynamic in action before. But what I said above, that "the very act of phrasing comments in a nonconfrontational way, trying to be supportive or friendly even if disagreeing, is emotional labor," doesn't only apply to Other People. It applies, or should apply, to all of us.
posted by languagehat at 12:09 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
To be fair, nitpicking about definitions is what languagehat DOES. It's kind of right there in the name. I mean, I don't think it was a helpful response here, but I get why he pointed it out.
posted by MsMolly at 12:10 PM on July 30, 2015
posted by MsMolly at 12:10 PM on July 30, 2015
Mod note: Not sure this is really a productive turn for the conversation to take.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
languagehat, I get where you're coming from, but I think it might be time to step away for a little bit. Lecturing women about feminism or how to treat feminist allies isn't ever a great call for a dude. Especially not in the context of this conversation.
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [17 favorites]
Is getting mad at someone for calling themselves feminist when they're imperfect at it helpful?
Depends on who you think needs the help.
posted by KathrynT at 12:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [16 favorites]
Depends on who you think needs the help.
posted by KathrynT at 12:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [16 favorites]
Honestly it seems to me that languagehat is lot less fucking clueless about male privilege than I've been.
posted by HotToddy at 12:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 12:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
I also understood that corb's belligerent comment made me feel shitty.
Sorry, but feeling shitty sometimes is how being an ally works.
If you're not feeling shitty sometimes, you're not listening. If you're not feeling shitty sometimes, you're not recognizing your own complicity. If you're not feeling shitty sometimes, you're not being a "male feminist." You're being this guy.
posted by babelfish at 12:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [46 favorites]
Sorry, but feeling shitty sometimes is how being an ally works.
If you're not feeling shitty sometimes, you're not listening. If you're not feeling shitty sometimes, you're not recognizing your own complicity. If you're not feeling shitty sometimes, you're not being a "male feminist." You're being this guy.
posted by babelfish at 12:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [46 favorites]
Honestly it seems to me that languagehat is lot less fucking clueless about male privilege than I've been.
That is true and it is also true that he, like literally everyone else, has blind spots. These things are not mutually exclusive.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:17 PM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
That is true and it is also true that he, like literally everyone else, has blind spots. These things are not mutually exclusive.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:17 PM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Oh God. I just saw the thing about "painting the doorknobs" and did a spit take. It was polishing the doorknobs. He bought a bench grinder. And all the wheels for it. And had to do it right the even though the kitchen was on fire or whatever. I feel comfortable sharing this here even though he's a Mefite. He won'tread this thread. I asked him to.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 12:17 PM on July 30, 2015 [35 favorites]
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 12:17 PM on July 30, 2015 [35 favorites]
Oh ma gah what happened here.
I think the reason it's annoying to hear men call themselves "feminist" is because it's often followed by "... so why are you picking on me!" Which is kind of what's happening right now, and it sucks. languagehat, you're a cool guy for sure and it's been great to have your support, but you can believe us, we're not just talking out of our asses about this stuff.
Also what babelfish said.
Back to what I was originally going to say... the idea of cultural gaslighting is something I just made up! But it helped me realize why it's so frustrating when as a woman, you say, like "hmm, weird how the sales department is almost all male and the admin is almost all female," and someone says, "well BECKY is in sales! How can you say that!!" Like, duh, there should be one token woman and that's the way it is, you're the weird one for complaining! It's not a problem!
posted by easter queen at 12:18 PM on July 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
I think the reason it's annoying to hear men call themselves "feminist" is because it's often followed by "... so why are you picking on me!" Which is kind of what's happening right now, and it sucks. languagehat, you're a cool guy for sure and it's been great to have your support, but you can believe us, we're not just talking out of our asses about this stuff.
Also what babelfish said.
Back to what I was originally going to say... the idea of cultural gaslighting is something I just made up! But it helped me realize why it's so frustrating when as a woman, you say, like "hmm, weird how the sales department is almost all male and the admin is almost all female," and someone says, "well BECKY is in sales! How can you say that!!" Like, duh, there should be one token woman and that's the way it is, you're the weird one for complaining! It's not a problem!
posted by easter queen at 12:18 PM on July 30, 2015 [25 favorites]
Honestly it seems to me that languagehat is lot less fucking clueless about male privilege than I've been.
Absolutely he is. He is WAY less fucking clueless than, I'd say, 98%-99% of the men I've ever met. That doesn't mean he's immune from fucking it up sometimes, because NOBODY is immune from fucking it up sometimes.
I'm really struggling here -- I've deleted about six way snarky and dismissive versions of this comment. But man, does it ever prick and sting when even one of the good ones blithely says "I don't understand why women put up with this shit," as if we had a meaningful choice.
posted by KathrynT at 12:18 PM on July 30, 2015 [54 favorites]
Absolutely he is. He is WAY less fucking clueless than, I'd say, 98%-99% of the men I've ever met. That doesn't mean he's immune from fucking it up sometimes, because NOBODY is immune from fucking it up sometimes.
I'm really struggling here -- I've deleted about six way snarky and dismissive versions of this comment. But man, does it ever prick and sting when even one of the good ones blithely says "I don't understand why women put up with this shit," as if we had a meaningful choice.
posted by KathrynT at 12:18 PM on July 30, 2015 [54 favorites]
I thought corb's comment was perfectly reasonable. I might call it angry but I wouldn't call it beligerant. And I wouldn't call that anger unreasonable. I certainly didn't read it as directed at anyone here specifically.
Divined by radio is free to get angry when men call themselves feminists too, I just wonder what good it does. Maybe it's just an inaccurate read because of the nature of text and it was about men volunteering themselves as feminist and expecting that immunizes them in some way.
But when it comes to people calling themselves feminist I just feel like we can't afford to discourage that as a self-image. So many women won't call themselves feminist because of the people who spun the word into something it wasn't; we can't afford to lose more ground to the folks who want to stop progress by controlling the language. Men shouldn't get to use it as a shield from criticism. (Neither should women, of course, but they're not benefiting directly or indirectly from anti-women bias in society the way we men do.)
posted by phearlez at 12:24 PM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Divined by radio is free to get angry when men call themselves feminists too, I just wonder what good it does. Maybe it's just an inaccurate read because of the nature of text and it was about men volunteering themselves as feminist and expecting that immunizes them in some way.
But when it comes to people calling themselves feminist I just feel like we can't afford to discourage that as a self-image. So many women won't call themselves feminist because of the people who spun the word into something it wasn't; we can't afford to lose more ground to the folks who want to stop progress by controlling the language. Men shouldn't get to use it as a shield from criticism. (Neither should women, of course, but they're not benefiting directly or indirectly from anti-women bias in society the way we men do.)
posted by phearlez at 12:24 PM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
I feel weird linking to the generally kinda frowned-upon Good Men Project (such a good concept, dragged down by a sociopathic founder!), not to mention an article about women by a man, but this is one of the earliest and, to be honest, still one of the best pieces I've seen connecting the tendency to gaslight women in a relationship with the tendency to gaslight women in society.
Since I have embarked on this feminist self-exploration in my life and in the lives of the women I know, this concept of women as 'crazy' has really emerged as a major issue in society at large and an equally major frustration for the women in my life, in general. From the way women are portrayed on reality shows, to how we condition boys and girls to see women, we have come to accept the idea that women are unbalanced, irrational individuals, especially in times of anger and frustration.posted by babelfish at 12:25 PM on July 30, 2015 [16 favorites]
He nitpicked divined by radio, not corb. dbr has been incredibly candid in her history on the site about being self-taught, about classism on the site, and about how that has affected her life and willingness to speak.
To me it read as though he was picking at technicalities and directing them at the person with less formal education, and not being cognizant of something this well-known poster has been willing to be open about, when apparently it was not even her comment that originally upset him. It felt cheap and like an attempt to embarrass her.
posted by Naamah at 12:25 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
To me it read as though he was picking at technicalities and directing them at the person with less formal education, and not being cognizant of something this well-known poster has been willing to be open about, when apparently it was not even her comment that originally upset him. It felt cheap and like an attempt to embarrass her.
posted by Naamah at 12:25 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think that the only people worried that feminists are driving people away from feminism are... men.
posted by easter queen at 12:26 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by easter queen at 12:26 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
languagehat, you're a cool guy for sure and it's been great to have your support, but you can believe us, we're not just talking out of our asses about this stuff.
He never said anyone was talking out of any asses at all, I have no idea what this is meant to refer to.
But man, does it ever prick and sting when even one of the good ones blithely says "I don't understand why women put up with this shit," as if we had a meaningful choice.
I totally get this, but if you look back at his original comment, it was a sincere question, accompanied with basically that exact conclusion - he just said he'd struggled with that question and speculated that it's probably just a trade-off of maintaining a hetero relationship under patriarchy where the next guy you meet will probably be worse than the last, which is basically just what corb said back to him. I might quibble with some of his assumptions in his speculative conclusion but it's not just a clueless "why do they do it?!!" question. Honestly, I've wondered why I put up with this stuff myself so many times that I didn't think it was a weird or offensive question at all - I don't feel like I have a real handle on the reasons why I put up with some of the things I have in past relationships and I think that'd be a really fruitful thing for me to explore with a therapist, actually. Just for context here's the rest of the paragraph containing the "why do they put up with it" clause:
One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit; of course I'm not talking about cases where they live in fear of violence, but about those "normal" relationships in which the guy basically lets the woman do the housework and emotional labor. I'm guessing women tend to be far more worried about the relationship breaking down than men (and thus afraid of putting it at risk by confronting their partner), which makes sense because the guy is likely to have an easier time finding another partner, and he is far more likely to find a woman willing to let him get away with shit than she is to find a guy who's significantly better than this one.
Re: men calling themselves feminists, reasonable people disagree on this one. I love it when men ID as feminists to other men because it is an act of normalization and solidarity. I hate it when men start comments with "as a feminist..." like that gives them some extra credibility when talking about this stuff with women, but still really appreciate it when they think of themselves as feminists.
posted by dialetheia at 12:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
He never said anyone was talking out of any asses at all, I have no idea what this is meant to refer to.
But man, does it ever prick and sting when even one of the good ones blithely says "I don't understand why women put up with this shit," as if we had a meaningful choice.
I totally get this, but if you look back at his original comment, it was a sincere question, accompanied with basically that exact conclusion - he just said he'd struggled with that question and speculated that it's probably just a trade-off of maintaining a hetero relationship under patriarchy where the next guy you meet will probably be worse than the last, which is basically just what corb said back to him. I might quibble with some of his assumptions in his speculative conclusion but it's not just a clueless "why do they do it?!!" question. Honestly, I've wondered why I put up with this stuff myself so many times that I didn't think it was a weird or offensive question at all - I don't feel like I have a real handle on the reasons why I put up with some of the things I have in past relationships and I think that'd be a really fruitful thing for me to explore with a therapist, actually. Just for context here's the rest of the paragraph containing the "why do they put up with it" clause:
One of the things I've struggled with as a male feminist is understanding why women so readily put up with male bullshit; of course I'm not talking about cases where they live in fear of violence, but about those "normal" relationships in which the guy basically lets the woman do the housework and emotional labor. I'm guessing women tend to be far more worried about the relationship breaking down than men (and thus afraid of putting it at risk by confronting their partner), which makes sense because the guy is likely to have an easier time finding another partner, and he is far more likely to find a woman willing to let him get away with shit than she is to find a guy who's significantly better than this one.
Re: men calling themselves feminists, reasonable people disagree on this one. I love it when men ID as feminists to other men because it is an act of normalization and solidarity. I hate it when men start comments with "as a feminist..." like that gives them some extra credibility when talking about this stuff with women, but still really appreciate it when they think of themselves as feminists.
posted by dialetheia at 12:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
I just wonder what good it does.
OK so: statements like this are not context-neutral. Whenever you, or anyone, says things like "Is this helpful?" or "What good does this do?" there is an implied beneficiary -- someone who must benefit from an action in order for that action to be considered appropriate. Until everyone knows and agrees on who that beneficiary should be, questions and statements like these are very difficult to agree on.
So, I would ask you, who is the implied beneficiary here?
posted by KathrynT at 12:32 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
OK so: statements like this are not context-neutral. Whenever you, or anyone, says things like "Is this helpful?" or "What good does this do?" there is an implied beneficiary -- someone who must benefit from an action in order for that action to be considered appropriate. Until everyone knows and agrees on who that beneficiary should be, questions and statements like these are very difficult to agree on.
So, I would ask you, who is the implied beneficiary here?
posted by KathrynT at 12:32 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
But man, does it ever prick and sting when even one of the good ones blithely says "I don't understand why women put up with this shit," as if we had a meaningful choice.
Yeah, but I've had moments of not understanding why women put up with this shit, and I'm a woman putting up with this shit. So let's not drive someone obviously engaging in good faith out of the room the minute he reveals a flaw in his understanding.
posted by HotToddy at 12:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
Yeah, but I've had moments of not understanding why women put up with this shit, and I'm a woman putting up with this shit. So let's not drive someone obviously engaging in good faith out of the room the minute he reveals a flaw in his understanding.
posted by HotToddy at 12:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
This is like the world's most common dynamic. Oppressed class is talking amongst themselves. Non-oppressed person comes in and either says something unwittingly offensive or vaguely concern trolls, often about terminology or a technicality. Oppressed class is like whateverrrr, this convo is a waste of time, you know you don't HAVE to speak up if all you've got is basic shit to say. Non-oppressed person is like "but this makes me feel bad! And when am I supposed to speak up? It's awkward for me!"
You know what makes me feel bad? Sexism. And the way it happens all the time, even in my most intimate relationships. Or how I feel awkward at work when I stand up to sexism at the cost of social cohesion (which is my responsibility, as a woman). You can share a little of the burden of feeling awkward and bad. There's no reason why sexism has to be exclusively a woman's problem. That's allyship.
dialetheia, my point was that when we say "it's frustrating when someone asks us how we can put up with this," it's offensive for a reason. We're not just making up things to be offended by. I appreciate that it doesn't offend you, and I like languagehat's contributions on this site a lot, but it's not just ranting and raving for the sake of ranting and raving. You can trust and believe that when a lot of women are bothered by something, there is a reason, not just personal anger toward a dude qua dude.
posted by easter queen at 12:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [23 favorites]
You know what makes me feel bad? Sexism. And the way it happens all the time, even in my most intimate relationships. Or how I feel awkward at work when I stand up to sexism at the cost of social cohesion (which is my responsibility, as a woman). You can share a little of the burden of feeling awkward and bad. There's no reason why sexism has to be exclusively a woman's problem. That's allyship.
dialetheia, my point was that when we say "it's frustrating when someone asks us how we can put up with this," it's offensive for a reason. We're not just making up things to be offended by. I appreciate that it doesn't offend you, and I like languagehat's contributions on this site a lot, but it's not just ranting and raving for the sake of ranting and raving. You can trust and believe that when a lot of women are bothered by something, there is a reason, not just personal anger toward a dude qua dude.
posted by easter queen at 12:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [23 favorites]
I didn't get the impression that languagehat was blithely asking, "why do you put up with it?" as if we could all just walk away from any relationship that's not making us 100% happy. It sounded more like, "I've been trying to pay attention, and obviously there are parts I don't get, so could someone fill in some of the gaps for me?"
But he happened to (oops) phrase it exactly like the last three dozen guys we've dealt with who said "if your MIL doesn't like your housekeeping, why do you put up with her?" or "if your boss is such a jerk, why don't you leave that job?" or "if your husband, the father of your four children, is a sexist slob, why don't you walk away from him?" (Or, as noted upthread, "if you don't like sending Christmas cards, why do you bother?")
Whatever the intention, he managed to tap into the same pattern that we get slammed with, over and over--the initial question followed by a claim that any complaints are somehow invalid if we don't intend to follow up with a threat of "fix it or else I'm gone."
We get far too many "just curious" questions that are really attempts to get details and turn around and attack us--there's a whole lot of "aha! Now I know X, and that proves your claim of Y is totally bogus!" We are twitchy about guys who are "curious" about the painful decisions we make, over and over. We are doubly twitchy when the guy is asking in abstract, instead of specific women, because we've seen too many times that one woman's truth gets used as a weapon against another.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:34 PM on July 30, 2015 [27 favorites]
But he happened to (oops) phrase it exactly like the last three dozen guys we've dealt with who said "if your MIL doesn't like your housekeeping, why do you put up with her?" or "if your boss is such a jerk, why don't you leave that job?" or "if your husband, the father of your four children, is a sexist slob, why don't you walk away from him?" (Or, as noted upthread, "if you don't like sending Christmas cards, why do you bother?")
Whatever the intention, he managed to tap into the same pattern that we get slammed with, over and over--the initial question followed by a claim that any complaints are somehow invalid if we don't intend to follow up with a threat of "fix it or else I'm gone."
We get far too many "just curious" questions that are really attempts to get details and turn around and attack us--there's a whole lot of "aha! Now I know X, and that proves your claim of Y is totally bogus!" We are twitchy about guys who are "curious" about the painful decisions we make, over and over. We are doubly twitchy when the guy is asking in abstract, instead of specific women, because we've seen too many times that one woman's truth gets used as a weapon against another.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:34 PM on July 30, 2015 [27 favorites]
Allies who need stroking aren't good allies or even allies. But I do think the word feminism needs some lovin.
posted by phearlez at 12:34 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 12:34 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
So let's not drive someone obviously engaging in good faith out of the room the minute he reveals a flaw in his understanding
I didn't see this happening... corb's comment was angry but didn't read as belligerent to me, just super honest, in a way that allies honestly need to be able to process. Allies have to do extra work to not come off as an extra burden on the cause. That's my understanding of how it works.
Anyway, I'm out for the rest of the day because I'm super fucking busy today but sorry if I made anyone feel shitty
posted by easter queen at 12:35 PM on July 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
I didn't see this happening... corb's comment was angry but didn't read as belligerent to me, just super honest, in a way that allies honestly need to be able to process. Allies have to do extra work to not come off as an extra burden on the cause. That's my understanding of how it works.
Anyway, I'm out for the rest of the day because I'm super fucking busy today but sorry if I made anyone feel shitty
posted by easter queen at 12:35 PM on July 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
Divined by radio is free to get angry when men call themselves feminists too, I just wonder what good it does. Maybe it's just an inaccurate read because of the nature of text and it was about men volunteering themselves as feminist and expecting that immunizes them in some way.
I am not dbr and won't presume to speak for her; however, I too tend to have a...less than gratified immediate response to men who call themselves feminist. Sometimes the very next thing out of their mouths completely obliterates my initial response. Mostly, though, it confirms it. And this particular instance was no different. I agree with dialetheia above that it's mostly the "As a Feminist" formulation that causes me to bristle.
I do not know what good it does; I don't think, however, that my initial internal bristling is doing any harm to the movement at large. On a purely individual level, I have found a starting point of "extreme skepticism" to be tremendously useful.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:36 PM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
I am not dbr and won't presume to speak for her; however, I too tend to have a...less than gratified immediate response to men who call themselves feminist. Sometimes the very next thing out of their mouths completely obliterates my initial response. Mostly, though, it confirms it. And this particular instance was no different. I agree with dialetheia above that it's mostly the "As a Feminist" formulation that causes me to bristle.
I do not know what good it does; I don't think, however, that my initial internal bristling is doing any harm to the movement at large. On a purely individual level, I have found a starting point of "extreme skepticism" to be tremendously useful.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:36 PM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
I don't see anyone driving anyone out of the room. I see two, maybe three, people responding to his comments with a certain amount of heat and frustration. This is a passionate conversation.
posted by KathrynT at 12:36 PM on July 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 12:36 PM on July 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
But he happened to (oops) phrase it exactly like the last three dozen guys we've dealt with who said "if your MIL doesn't like your housekeeping, why do you put up with her?" or "if your boss is such a jerk, why don't you leave that job?" or "if your husband, the father of your four children, is a sexist slob, why don't you walk away from him?" (Or, as noted upthread, "if you don't like sending Christmas cards, why do you bother?")
Yeah, one of the difficult jobs of an ally is to give up the benefit of the doubt. Recognize that if your approach or rhetoric or phrasing is indistinguishable from the approach or rhetoric or phrasing of someone acting in bad faith, then your good intentions don't really matter. Realize that members of marginalized groups encounter far, far more bad-faith rhetoric than you do, and will sometimes react accordingly. Acknowledge that you will need to tread lighter and apologize more readily, even if you feel it's unjust, even if you think people should give you more credit. You are literally a representative of the oppressing group, even if you're a well-meaning one.
posted by babelfish at 12:39 PM on July 30, 2015 [55 favorites]
Yeah, one of the difficult jobs of an ally is to give up the benefit of the doubt. Recognize that if your approach or rhetoric or phrasing is indistinguishable from the approach or rhetoric or phrasing of someone acting in bad faith, then your good intentions don't really matter. Realize that members of marginalized groups encounter far, far more bad-faith rhetoric than you do, and will sometimes react accordingly. Acknowledge that you will need to tread lighter and apologize more readily, even if you feel it's unjust, even if you think people should give you more credit. You are literally a representative of the oppressing group, even if you're a well-meaning one.
posted by babelfish at 12:39 PM on July 30, 2015 [55 favorites]
I get that it's a legitimate question and point of confusion, and a bunch of us stepped in to educate where there was a gap in knowledge. Ironic in this thread, yes, but I don't mean to attack by pointing out it's a blind spot or an understanding caused by privilege - that is just a fact.
To me, it's important that it's understood that this "putting up with" isn't just about having a male partner, as if that's a holy grail - that we put up with one dude just because the next one is worse. It's more than that. It's important because our entire social structure - family formation, economic status, retirement, health, child care - is built to favor males. That's what the privilege is. So in relationships and families of any kind (not just romantic/pair-bonded) that include males, when you try to make moves of any kind that favor females or disfavor males, even if all that does is to create an equitable balance in access to whatever the important resource is, you suffer - because you forego the rewards of a system built to favor males. We each make a personal deal with the devil in this - achieving life goals vs. turning over the social order and inviting some painful consequences. The examples above- having children, negotiating child care/house-work vs. out-work, combined purchasing power and retirement planning - all these serious-business life things are connected to "putting up with" a certain amount of the assumptions patriarchy makes about how we should live together.
posted by Miko at 12:44 PM on July 30, 2015 [52 favorites]
To me, it's important that it's understood that this "putting up with" isn't just about having a male partner, as if that's a holy grail - that we put up with one dude just because the next one is worse. It's more than that. It's important because our entire social structure - family formation, economic status, retirement, health, child care - is built to favor males. That's what the privilege is. So in relationships and families of any kind (not just romantic/pair-bonded) that include males, when you try to make moves of any kind that favor females or disfavor males, even if all that does is to create an equitable balance in access to whatever the important resource is, you suffer - because you forego the rewards of a system built to favor males. We each make a personal deal with the devil in this - achieving life goals vs. turning over the social order and inviting some painful consequences. The examples above- having children, negotiating child care/house-work vs. out-work, combined purchasing power and retirement planning - all these serious-business life things are connected to "putting up with" a certain amount of the assumptions patriarchy makes about how we should live together.
posted by Miko at 12:44 PM on July 30, 2015 [52 favorites]
I liked this thread better when everyone was sharing war stories.
posted by JanetLand at 12:48 PM on July 30, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 12:48 PM on July 30, 2015 [15 favorites]
Miko: a bunch of us stepped in to educate where there was a gap in knowledge. Ironic in this thread, yes
Indeed. When I posted my reply, I remember thinking 'how can you not know this by now? Isn't it obvious? Have you been paying attention? Because I thought you had.'
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:51 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Indeed. When I posted my reply, I remember thinking 'how can you not know this by now? Isn't it obvious? Have you been paying attention? Because I thought you had.'
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:51 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
So, I would ask you, who is the implied beneficiary here?
Well if we read the statement "I hate it so much" literally then I'd say the biggest beneficiary to not having that reaction is the person feeling that hate. Hate may be useful sometimes, but I think being angry that someone in a position to maybe grow to suck less and be an ally identifies themselves as an ally isn't something you can direct productively. It's just stomach lining killing. But as I said, maybe it's just the limit of the medium here and it was about the jackholes who want to inoculate themselves from any criticism or growth because they pinned on a label and never did anything else.
I think the secondary beneficiary is the language. We're coming off a forty year stretch of enemies of equality and progress successfully turning certain words into epithets. The concept of feminist being this rarified thing is so ingrained in the culture now that a mainstream comedian is able to get a routine out of refuting that it's anything but a simple support of equality. I think that's a big deal because I am very much inclined to think that the people who control the language get to steer the dialog and have an advantage.
I don't think allies need cookies and I'm going to be pro-feminist whether anyone thanks me for it or not. It's the right thing and I think it's in my interest, too. But I care whether people are discouraged from calling themselves feminist because I think it has a real impact.
posted by phearlez at 12:55 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well if we read the statement "I hate it so much" literally then I'd say the biggest beneficiary to not having that reaction is the person feeling that hate. Hate may be useful sometimes, but I think being angry that someone in a position to maybe grow to suck less and be an ally identifies themselves as an ally isn't something you can direct productively. It's just stomach lining killing. But as I said, maybe it's just the limit of the medium here and it was about the jackholes who want to inoculate themselves from any criticism or growth because they pinned on a label and never did anything else.
I think the secondary beneficiary is the language. We're coming off a forty year stretch of enemies of equality and progress successfully turning certain words into epithets. The concept of feminist being this rarified thing is so ingrained in the culture now that a mainstream comedian is able to get a routine out of refuting that it's anything but a simple support of equality. I think that's a big deal because I am very much inclined to think that the people who control the language get to steer the dialog and have an advantage.
I don't think allies need cookies and I'm going to be pro-feminist whether anyone thanks me for it or not. It's the right thing and I think it's in my interest, too. But I care whether people are discouraged from calling themselves feminist because I think it has a real impact.
posted by phearlez at 12:55 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
i feel like it's good for everyone to think of themselves as feminists. i think it's good for men who think of themselves as feminists to understand why some (many) feminist women are wary of men who tend to loudly self id in the presence of mostly women as feminists. but mostly i feel like we can put a pin in the conversation about whether/when men should call themselves feminists for another thread where it's more on topic.
posted by nadawi at 12:59 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:59 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
That makes complete sense to me. It is a pretty different topic.
posted by Miko at 1:04 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 1:04 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I liked this thread better when everyone was sharing war stories.
I'm sincerely sorry for inadvertently kicking off a totally regrettable derail, and I'm not going to say another word about it, but showcasing examples of women's variably survival-based need to delicately tiptoe around men's feelings so they don't take their magical dudely Ally Ball and go home is a very familiar war story to me.
Like I don't care at all whether any man alive deigns to agree with a single one of my ideas or opinions about feminism or sexism, but hey, I'm still stuck performing significantly more emotional labor in service to the comfort of male humans than I do in service to anything else in my life. Probably everything else combined, come to think of it.
posted by divined by radio at 1:05 PM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
I'm sincerely sorry for inadvertently kicking off a totally regrettable derail, and I'm not going to say another word about it, but showcasing examples of women's variably survival-based need to delicately tiptoe around men's feelings so they don't take their magical dudely Ally Ball and go home is a very familiar war story to me.
Like I don't care at all whether any man alive deigns to agree with a single one of my ideas or opinions about feminism or sexism, but hey, I'm still stuck performing significantly more emotional labor in service to the comfort of male humans than I do in service to anything else in my life. Probably everything else combined, come to think of it.
posted by divined by radio at 1:05 PM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
PussKillian: I am so sorry (read: empathizing with you) about your family kinda imploding on itself under its own weight. Something similar happened to my extended family, in that there was a recent blow-up which lead to one party wondering if the injured party would be upset if they accepted a wedding invitation. And the injury was over something happening in the Philippines to an even more distant relation!
In fact, let me know if this phrase strikes a chord with you or any of the rest of you: "You should take care of yourself better, because if we [the parents] die and you're all alone, where will you be?" Or even this one: "You should be a better [romantic partner] because if you don't [do this thing I the parent am recommending], he'll leave you and then where will you be?"
[The answer, of course, is on Crone Island, sitting in a lawn chair and drinking a margarita.]
Few can turn emotional labor into emotional blackmail better than bio parents. Bad partners and parental figures can indeed be terrible, but at least you're not related to them by blood.
posted by TrishaLynn at 1:16 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
In fact, let me know if this phrase strikes a chord with you or any of the rest of you: "You should take care of yourself better, because if we [the parents] die and you're all alone, where will you be?" Or even this one: "You should be a better [romantic partner] because if you don't [do this thing I the parent am recommending], he'll leave you and then where will you be?"
[The answer, of course, is on Crone Island, sitting in a lawn chair and drinking a margarita.]
Few can turn emotional labor into emotional blackmail better than bio parents. Bad partners and parental figures can indeed be terrible, but at least you're not related to them by blood.
posted by TrishaLynn at 1:16 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
I don't think allies need cookies and I'm going to be pro-feminist whether anyone thanks me for it or not. It's the right thing and I think it's in my interest, too. But I care whether people are discouraged from calling themselves feminist because I think it has a real impact.
I've been very hesitant to wade into this thread because the ongoing discussion here is something I need to learn from. Listening is more important than voicing my opinions. And my opinions not only aren't required here, they'd probably only add noise to the thread.
But I think on this topic I can safely mention that in my own head, I think of myself as a feminist. Because it's as good a description as any of how I try to act in life. But it's not a term that comes up in conversation, though. Not to men or women. And the term "ally" may be accurate, but to me personally, it doesn't feel like it fits me perfectly. So while I do strive to be a good ally, I don't think of myself that way. And I think that under most circumstances it's unnecessary for guys to talk about that label on Metafilter, either. Either you are supportive in certain threads, or not. Actions speak louder than words.
I think that for most guys, what should matter isn't how we label ourselves, but how others think of us. How are actions mark us as someone who gives a damn and tries to make this world a better place for women, or not. Whether you're assisting someone on an individual level (by say, speaking up in public when a woman is being catcalled) or voting for a politician that respects equality,) says a lot more about who you are than a word you call yourself. Because maybe, just maybe, those labels need to be earned.
If you believe in equality and choice and equal protection and respect and making this world better for women any way you can and do your best to effect change in those directions, then, as Chris Rock says, that's what you're supposed to do. And you shouldn't need or want a cookie or a pat on the head or even thanks in return as acknowledgement of that.
And if we allies fuck up, the best thing we can do try not to take the criticism personally, hold ourselves accountable, apologize and try harder next time.
....returning to lurk mode.
posted by zarq at 1:21 PM on July 30, 2015 [23 favorites]
I've been very hesitant to wade into this thread because the ongoing discussion here is something I need to learn from. Listening is more important than voicing my opinions. And my opinions not only aren't required here, they'd probably only add noise to the thread.
But I think on this topic I can safely mention that in my own head, I think of myself as a feminist. Because it's as good a description as any of how I try to act in life. But it's not a term that comes up in conversation, though. Not to men or women. And the term "ally" may be accurate, but to me personally, it doesn't feel like it fits me perfectly. So while I do strive to be a good ally, I don't think of myself that way. And I think that under most circumstances it's unnecessary for guys to talk about that label on Metafilter, either. Either you are supportive in certain threads, or not. Actions speak louder than words.
I think that for most guys, what should matter isn't how we label ourselves, but how others think of us. How are actions mark us as someone who gives a damn and tries to make this world a better place for women, or not. Whether you're assisting someone on an individual level (by say, speaking up in public when a woman is being catcalled) or voting for a politician that respects equality,) says a lot more about who you are than a word you call yourself. Because maybe, just maybe, those labels need to be earned.
If you believe in equality and choice and equal protection and respect and making this world better for women any way you can and do your best to effect change in those directions, then, as Chris Rock says, that's what you're supposed to do. And you shouldn't need or want a cookie or a pat on the head or even thanks in return as acknowledgement of that.
And if we allies fuck up, the best thing we can do try not to take the criticism personally, hold ourselves accountable, apologize and try harder next time.
....returning to lurk mode.
posted by zarq at 1:21 PM on July 30, 2015 [23 favorites]
You want war stories? Ha! I got em. I've been thinking so much about my first marriage and how bad it was and basically asking myself why did I waste my youth and beauty on that guy?
He had several points in his favor. First he was not my narcissistic father-- that is he loved his family, he had lots of friends and everybody thought he was a nice guy. In fact, his grandmother drilled into him that you put other people first before yourself. Wonderful. Little did I know that in becoming his wife I was a mere extension of him and not an "other." So other people (and their feelings and their needs) came first, then him, then me last.
He was a trained chef. Wonderful. He had had years of training and knew not just how to whip up perfect food, he knew the value of cleanliness. So imagine my surprise when I moved into his apartment and while scrubbing the filthy kitchen floor asked, "When did you last clean this floor?" "Never." Immaculate work kitchen but filthy living quarters. That held true all through our marriage. He never once changed a diaper, lifted a paint brush, washed a dish, or changed a lightbulb. He did like to grocery shop, however.
Finally he wooed the heck out of me. I'm so beautiful, I'm so smart. He loved me so much. Yadda Yadda Yadda. Shortly after we were married though it's "I shouldn't have to say I love you, you should just know it. I shouldn't have to say you are pretty, you should just know it." In fact, since his first language was Japanese, his second language was Spanish, and his third language was English he pretty much didn't want to tell me anything at all. He didn't want to listen, either. It was too much trouble. He also didn't want to buy presents for me because it was too much trouble. I should just buy something nice and pretend it was from him and while I was at it buy something for his mother and his work friend and the golf starter and his boss.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:25 PM on July 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
He had several points in his favor. First he was not my narcissistic father-- that is he loved his family, he had lots of friends and everybody thought he was a nice guy. In fact, his grandmother drilled into him that you put other people first before yourself. Wonderful. Little did I know that in becoming his wife I was a mere extension of him and not an "other." So other people (and their feelings and their needs) came first, then him, then me last.
He was a trained chef. Wonderful. He had had years of training and knew not just how to whip up perfect food, he knew the value of cleanliness. So imagine my surprise when I moved into his apartment and while scrubbing the filthy kitchen floor asked, "When did you last clean this floor?" "Never." Immaculate work kitchen but filthy living quarters. That held true all through our marriage. He never once changed a diaper, lifted a paint brush, washed a dish, or changed a lightbulb. He did like to grocery shop, however.
Finally he wooed the heck out of me. I'm so beautiful, I'm so smart. He loved me so much. Yadda Yadda Yadda. Shortly after we were married though it's "I shouldn't have to say I love you, you should just know it. I shouldn't have to say you are pretty, you should just know it." In fact, since his first language was Japanese, his second language was Spanish, and his third language was English he pretty much didn't want to tell me anything at all. He didn't want to listen, either. It was too much trouble. He also didn't want to buy presents for me because it was too much trouble. I should just buy something nice and pretend it was from him and while I was at it buy something for his mother and his work friend and the golf starter and his boss.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:25 PM on July 30, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think it's tied in with slut shaming and the Madonna/Whore complex.
I know many guys who are completely befuddled by -and won't date- women who date casually.
I've reflected on this a lot too. That's absolutely part of it, but i always see guys trying to get to the cohabitation stage as quickly as possible and i can't help but think that yes, it's an EL thing more than anything else.
Men want to stop doing the initial hard work of EL as quickly as possible. It's basically like the stages of a rocket taking off in to space, where space is the homeostasis of a full committed relationship. They want to ditch those big heavy "extra" rocket boosters of doing lots of EL and move on to just passively orbiting and not having to constantly do that "hard wooing stuff" like buying presents and planning cute outings and grinding their mental gears on "hmm, from what i know about her and what she likes, would she like this?" and having to do things like keep track of what music she mentioned listening to so they can go "oh, it's that band she likes! i should get tickets and surprise her!".
The more i reflect on it i think it isn't even about having someone to mom them as that's generally something you slide in to over time. Although i will admit i've watched guys i know clean up their house, and keep it clean when they're first meeting and tentatively dating someone then just... stop(or they have a come to jesus moment of "fuck, she commented on my house being a sty, now i have to CLEAN it!!! OMFG I'M GONNA DO THAT RIGHT NOW" but they see it as like a relatively one off thing, not a regular maintenance task).
Because nah, it's about having to do the emotional lifting and easing off that ASAP.
I'm interested to see and hear others opinions on this though. But this thread made that jump out at me watching friends short relationships that either they(if they're guys) or the dude they were dating went official on super fast and then flamed out as soon as the guy ditched those solid-rocket-boosters of EL.
posted by emptythought at 1:27 PM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
I know many guys who are completely befuddled by -and won't date- women who date casually.
I've reflected on this a lot too. That's absolutely part of it, but i always see guys trying to get to the cohabitation stage as quickly as possible and i can't help but think that yes, it's an EL thing more than anything else.
Men want to stop doing the initial hard work of EL as quickly as possible. It's basically like the stages of a rocket taking off in to space, where space is the homeostasis of a full committed relationship. They want to ditch those big heavy "extra" rocket boosters of doing lots of EL and move on to just passively orbiting and not having to constantly do that "hard wooing stuff" like buying presents and planning cute outings and grinding their mental gears on "hmm, from what i know about her and what she likes, would she like this?" and having to do things like keep track of what music she mentioned listening to so they can go "oh, it's that band she likes! i should get tickets and surprise her!".
The more i reflect on it i think it isn't even about having someone to mom them as that's generally something you slide in to over time. Although i will admit i've watched guys i know clean up their house, and keep it clean when they're first meeting and tentatively dating someone then just... stop(or they have a come to jesus moment of "fuck, she commented on my house being a sty, now i have to CLEAN it!!! OMFG I'M GONNA DO THAT RIGHT NOW" but they see it as like a relatively one off thing, not a regular maintenance task).
Because nah, it's about having to do the emotional lifting and easing off that ASAP.
I'm interested to see and hear others opinions on this though. But this thread made that jump out at me watching friends short relationships that either they(if they're guys) or the dude they were dating went official on super fast and then flamed out as soon as the guy ditched those solid-rocket-boosters of EL.
posted by emptythought at 1:27 PM on July 30, 2015 [24 favorites]
Er.... sorry. This should read: "And if we allies fuck up, the best thing we can do is try not to take the resulting criticisms personally. Then we should hold ourselves accountable, apologize and try harder next time."
Lurk mode needs a longer edit window
posted by zarq at 1:27 PM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Lurk mode needs a longer edit window
posted by zarq at 1:27 PM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
the best thing we can do try not to take the criticism personally
Definitely - always be aware that some of the responses are likely to be aimed at lurkers facing similar situations elsewhere as much as the exact circumstances this time.
And to pull this back into the main topic: anyone want to share war stories about "he asked for an explanation and then..." [insert hours of UEL].
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Definitely - always be aware that some of the responses are likely to be aimed at lurkers facing similar situations elsewhere as much as the exact circumstances this time.
And to pull this back into the main topic: anyone want to share war stories about "he asked for an explanation and then..." [insert hours of UEL].
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
TrishaLynn, I got very similar statements to those when I was younger (mostly tied in with not being fat because fat girls don't get courted by pure and wholesome Catholic boys). But now that I'm in a long-term marriage with a man who has bipolar disorder, it's more like, "It's so fortunate for that you grew up having to take care of me all the time! It's good training to be taking care of him now! How lucky it all turned out!"
posted by PussKillian at 1:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by PussKillian at 1:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am chiming in to say, ya, this is a pretty perfect example of how attempting to talk about this has gone with some of the men in my life. Men whose friends describe them as nice and generous and kind and feminist. The constant streams of:
- "Why haven't you solved this problem yet?"
- "Why do you let this bother you (so much)?"
- "Why are you still here (or there)?"
- "Have you tried this solution?" (that thousands have suggested before!)
- "Well, how was I supposed to know what you have already tried before making a suggestion?"
- "I don't like the way you framed that complaint."
- "I wish you were being nicer."
- "This is why so many people don't like feminists, you're so strident and angry"
- "You shouldn't be angry at the thing I'm saying, it's much nicer than any way I've heard a guy express it!"
- "I meant it in good faith and you just have to trust that I'm one of the good guys even if I sound exactly like people who have hurt you in the past"
- "My intentions should count for something"
- "I'm just going to stop trying to have these kinds of conversations if you keep making me feel bad"
- "What do you mean you don't know how a washing machine works?"
- "Why do you wait until your wife sets up an outing for us to grab a beer together? Can't you pick up the phone as often as I do?"
- "Why are you still giving women grief about their choices?"
- "Is this the first time your wife has mentioned that she'd like you to wash dishes/plan a date/pick up your socks? No? Why didn't you start doing that the first time she asked?"
- "Why do you think women should be nicer to you than men are?"
- "What kind of wrapping paper are you getting for the holidays this year? I picked up some silver with snowflakes on it so that we don't have to store different kinds of paper for people who celebrate different holidays. My girlfriend likes to keep the wrapping streamlined, and I like helping her out with that."
Another thing I think men don't get is that I have respect for an ally who does good work but slips up some of the time, if he can say, "I didn't know, I'm sorry," or "yeah, I sounded like a dick, I'm sorry." I kind of lose respect for an ally who goes home because shit got real.
(Not, like, permanently. But if you want to know to whom my respect goes, now you do.)
posted by easter queen at 1:41 PM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
(Not, like, permanently. But if you want to know to whom my respect goes, now you do.)
posted by easter queen at 1:41 PM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
To bring this back around to intersectionality, this discussion we're having now is very similar to John Metta's piece on Why I Don't Speak About Race With White People. As a white feminist it helps me to remember that my friends of color get it from not just men who don't want to understand their female experience, but white women who don't want to understand their racial experience. It helps remind me that we should all, always be striving to do better.
posted by MsMolly at 1:53 PM on July 30, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 1:53 PM on July 30, 2015 [37 favorites]
Here's a war story for you. My father in law suggested we all go out to dinner tonight at Olive Garden, his treat. My daughter has some really unusual food intolerances, and as a result one of the things she can't have is high fructose corn syrup. Some time ago I attempted to find out what at Olive Garden does and does not have HFCS in it, and was told "Sorry, we don't have access to that information." When I mentioned this to my FIL, that maybe there was a better option where we could find out more easily what my kid can and can't eat there, he said "Well, maybe you can call them tomorrow and find out!"
So, gritting my teeth, I called them -- because I'd rather do this work with a stranger than do all the UEL of managing my FIL when he gets saddlesore. They were predictably awful; first, they said it wasn't in their allergy book, so they'd have to walk all the way to the back to read the ingredients list. Then when I said "OK, I'll wait," it turned out that they actually had to call all their vendors and suppliers, and they said they would do that for three (3) things, no more. I said "Fine: the tomato sauce, the kid's pizza, and the breadsticks." An hour and a half later I got the call that the breadsticks were loaded with HFCS, and they had no way of accessing the ingredients for the tomato sauce or the pizza. Could be anything in there! Wood shavings and arsenic? You never know!
Called my FIL back and said "Spent way too long dealing with Olive Garden to find out that there's nothing there our kid can eat. Do you have another suggestion?" He replied "Well, does she like salad? I bet she could have the salad. What about the soup, did you ask about the soup? She could probably just fill up on breadsticks!" I told him "She's EIGHT; she doesn't want to eat salad, and besides, the dressing is loaded with HFCS, I promise you. They wouldn't tell me about the soup, I had to limit it to three things. And the breadsticks have HFCS in them and she can't have them. We will have to pick somewhere else."
The next words out of his mouth were "Can't you make her a sandwich to eat at home first?"
Perhaps instead of Olive Garden, tonight we will dine on manflesh.
posted by KathrynT at 2:06 PM on July 30, 2015 [103 favorites]
So, gritting my teeth, I called them -- because I'd rather do this work with a stranger than do all the UEL of managing my FIL when he gets saddlesore. They were predictably awful; first, they said it wasn't in their allergy book, so they'd have to walk all the way to the back to read the ingredients list. Then when I said "OK, I'll wait," it turned out that they actually had to call all their vendors and suppliers, and they said they would do that for three (3) things, no more. I said "Fine: the tomato sauce, the kid's pizza, and the breadsticks." An hour and a half later I got the call that the breadsticks were loaded with HFCS, and they had no way of accessing the ingredients for the tomato sauce or the pizza. Could be anything in there! Wood shavings and arsenic? You never know!
Called my FIL back and said "Spent way too long dealing with Olive Garden to find out that there's nothing there our kid can eat. Do you have another suggestion?" He replied "Well, does she like salad? I bet she could have the salad. What about the soup, did you ask about the soup? She could probably just fill up on breadsticks!" I told him "She's EIGHT; she doesn't want to eat salad, and besides, the dressing is loaded with HFCS, I promise you. They wouldn't tell me about the soup, I had to limit it to three things. And the breadsticks have HFCS in them and she can't have them. We will have to pick somewhere else."
The next words out of his mouth were "Can't you make her a sandwich to eat at home first?"
Perhaps instead of Olive Garden, tonight we will dine on manflesh.
posted by KathrynT at 2:06 PM on July 30, 2015 [103 favorites]
MsMolly, thanks for linking to that article, it was very educative.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:12 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:12 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Kathryn: not only am I wondering why your FIL is being such a spode, I'm also wondering why your HUSBAND isn't negotiating this kind of shit with him (Your daughter is his kid too, yeah?)
Which means your story is like a double-load of emotional labor, from both the father and the son.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [43 favorites]
Which means your story is like a double-load of emotional labor, from both the father and the son.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [43 favorites]
Perhaps instead of Olive Garden, tonight we will dine on manflesh.
Or maybe the FIL could pick a restaurant you know and he knows the kid can safely eat at? But wait, changing what he wants to eat because his guest who is also his granddaughter can't eat there would be SO MUCH TROUBLE.
When we had my parents and my in-laws over for the pre-wedding feast, I had to deal with the fact that his mom can't eat seafood, both dads are diabetic, I have a low-sodium requirement, and my husband can't stand the feel of anything gristly. And we all made it work somehow.
posted by TrishaLynn at 2:17 PM on July 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
Or maybe the FIL could pick a restaurant you know and he knows the kid can safely eat at? But wait, changing what he wants to eat because his guest who is also his granddaughter can't eat there would be SO MUCH TROUBLE.
When we had my parents and my in-laws over for the pre-wedding feast, I had to deal with the fact that his mom can't eat seafood, both dads are diabetic, I have a low-sodium requirement, and my husband can't stand the feel of anything gristly. And we all made it work somehow.
posted by TrishaLynn at 2:17 PM on July 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'm also wondering why your HUSBAND isn't negotiating this kind of shit with him
All the usual reasons. He's at work1, and he works in a cubicle environment so he doesn't have good phone privacy. He has some slight hearing loss and phone conversations are difficult for him. He hates making phone calls in general2. I'm the one who knows more about what our kid can and can't eat, and what foods are likely to be offenders3. When his dad first suggested it, he didn't think to push back on dietary restrictions stuff because, from his apology text about it, "I can never seem to get off my memory ass to remember that I never see it as a problem because it's always a problem you've already solved."4
1. Whereas I am home with the kids
2. And yet someone has to make them
3. Although he has access to all the same tools and resources as I have
4. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He is at least cognizant of the problem, I suppose.
posted by KathrynT at 2:23 PM on July 30, 2015 [40 favorites]
All the usual reasons. He's at work1, and he works in a cubicle environment so he doesn't have good phone privacy. He has some slight hearing loss and phone conversations are difficult for him. He hates making phone calls in general2. I'm the one who knows more about what our kid can and can't eat, and what foods are likely to be offenders3. When his dad first suggested it, he didn't think to push back on dietary restrictions stuff because, from his apology text about it, "I can never seem to get off my memory ass to remember that I never see it as a problem because it's always a problem you've already solved."4
1. Whereas I am home with the kids
2. And yet someone has to make them
3. Although he has access to all the same tools and resources as I have
4. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He is at least cognizant of the problem, I suppose.
posted by KathrynT at 2:23 PM on July 30, 2015 [40 favorites]
I'm interested to see and hear others opinions on this though. But this thread made that jump out at me watching friends short relationships that either they(if they're guys) or the dude they were dating went official on super fast and then flamed out as soon as the guy ditched those solid-rocket-boosters of EL.
I think this is an excellent metaphor.
A change inspired by this thread is that I maintain my own pace. I will not go faster than I am comfortable with, so dude on his EL Rocket Booster is taking a ride to the stratosphere all by himself.
I also will not maintain effort where it isn't being met with equal effort.
Which loops back in the label "feminist" and how it can be mid-used. I've encountered many a guy who doesn't want to be the one to make the first move, or plan a date, or put more effort into a convo than "heeeeeyyy" and call themselves feminists. Because hey, we're all equal now right? So the ladies can do all that. Which has the actual effect that the EL imbalance is there right from the beginning. So, to all the unnamed dudes out there who do that, no, it doesn't make you a feminist, it makes you an undateable asshat. And another reason why we take the labels with a grain of salt and look at the actions instead.
posted by susiswimmer at 2:24 PM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
I think this is an excellent metaphor.
A change inspired by this thread is that I maintain my own pace. I will not go faster than I am comfortable with, so dude on his EL Rocket Booster is taking a ride to the stratosphere all by himself.
I also will not maintain effort where it isn't being met with equal effort.
Which loops back in the label "feminist" and how it can be mid-used. I've encountered many a guy who doesn't want to be the one to make the first move, or plan a date, or put more effort into a convo than "heeeeeyyy" and call themselves feminists. Because hey, we're all equal now right? So the ladies can do all that. Which has the actual effect that the EL imbalance is there right from the beginning. So, to all the unnamed dudes out there who do that, no, it doesn't make you a feminist, it makes you an undateable asshat. And another reason why we take the labels with a grain of salt and look at the actions instead.
posted by susiswimmer at 2:24 PM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Couple of comments deleted - let's not go down the road of actually talking about murder and killings, it's a recipe for derails we don't need.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah! I'm really interested in the discussion in the other thread about the dating app that means women message first. So let me get this straight. Now we have to approach. So we start the conversation (and in my experience are the only ones to ask questions and actually get a conversation going). And we set up the date. And probably the one after that. And if it becomes a relationship we do most of the emotional heavy lifting. And men are bringing...what, exactly? Sometimes I feel like the whole 'women! you must get a man!' thing is the biggest con ever perpetuated.
In happier news, I think this week I partly managed to educate a colleague about how his perception that a woman of colour in the same role as a white man was not a 'bullshitter' while the man was 'authoritative' but that MAYBE we all marinate in a juicy climate of racism and sexism and so perhaps we're more predisposed to see white men as arbiters of authority and women of colour as having nothing much to add (despite the fact that this particular woman is twenty years younger than the man in question and working at the same level in a bigger organisation which by my reading of the situation, privilege, etc. means she is at least ten times better at her job than he is). Baby steps, and ones I wouldn't have felt able to take without this thread validating my perception that this stuff is right there all around us colouring everything (as opposed to me being over-sensitive to it and exaggerating).
posted by theseldomseenkid at 2:35 PM on July 30, 2015 [21 favorites]
In happier news, I think this week I partly managed to educate a colleague about how his perception that a woman of colour in the same role as a white man was not a 'bullshitter' while the man was 'authoritative' but that MAYBE we all marinate in a juicy climate of racism and sexism and so perhaps we're more predisposed to see white men as arbiters of authority and women of colour as having nothing much to add (despite the fact that this particular woman is twenty years younger than the man in question and working at the same level in a bigger organisation which by my reading of the situation, privilege, etc. means she is at least ten times better at her job than he is). Baby steps, and ones I wouldn't have felt able to take without this thread validating my perception that this stuff is right there all around us colouring everything (as opposed to me being over-sensitive to it and exaggerating).
posted by theseldomseenkid at 2:35 PM on July 30, 2015 [21 favorites]
Perhaps instead of Olive Garden, tonight we will dine on manflesh.
I advise against it. There's no way you get that authentic a jackass without LOADS of HFCSs.
posted by phearlez at 2:57 PM on July 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
I advise against it. There's no way you get that authentic a jackass without LOADS of HFCSs.
posted by phearlez at 2:57 PM on July 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
I realize the word feminist can be loaded because there's shits that have used that word as a defense. I just consider it to mean a person cognizant that society systematically devalues women in many spheres. That doesn't mean you aren't a sexist.
Like, instead of a guy calling himself a feminist, he could call himself a sexist. Not as a person who spouts that "men are just better" nonsense, but just as a mantra that guides saying "hey, it's impossible for anyone human to not be affected by bias, so why don't I take it as true and try to limit my sexist actions?"
Sorry if this comment is a derail and loud buffoonery.
posted by halifix at 3:08 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Like, instead of a guy calling himself a feminist, he could call himself a sexist. Not as a person who spouts that "men are just better" nonsense, but just as a mantra that guides saying "hey, it's impossible for anyone human to not be affected by bias, so why don't I take it as true and try to limit my sexist actions?"
Sorry if this comment is a derail and loud buffoonery.
posted by halifix at 3:08 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
So what I really meant is that can we not nitpick on people's attitudes and just let this be a haven for people who have been misused in meatspace to tell their stories?
posted by halifix at 3:10 PM on July 30, 2015
posted by halifix at 3:10 PM on July 30, 2015
Hey... This: "I was a mere extension of him and not an 'other.' So other people (and their feelings and their needs) came first, then him, then me last" is familiar!
posted by Don Pepino at 3:21 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 3:21 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I want this thread to not end until the pain and anger and frustration that's fueling it ends.
It's illuminated so much from my past, and I was born with a more than the average amount of NOPE when it comes to this bullshit.
Out all the feels jumping out, I'll never forget the mom (grandmother?) diapering and turning and feeding the elderly husband who had bitched about helping her walk to the garden after a C-section. That makes the idea of dying alone sound soooooo much better.
The other is the "rocket boosters" of Emotional Labor metaphor. A man I was mildly interested in recently said "good luck finding a guy to sign up for a LTR or committed dating if you're not going to move in and marry him." Hahaha. I live pretty frugally and realized this week that my one solid gold-plated extravagance is forgoing the economic benefits of Living With A Man. I'm lucky enough to get laid or have an activity partner pretty much whenever, and then send those nice (usually younger) men on their way until the next time. Not ruling out capital-L love, but no way in hell is anyone rushing it, ever again.
On Crone Island, let us have a research lab to develop a condom replacement that does not suck.
And thank you all so so much for sharing, and to those of you who are listening. Maybe there's hope.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 3:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [32 favorites]
It's illuminated so much from my past, and I was born with a more than the average amount of NOPE when it comes to this bullshit.
Out all the feels jumping out, I'll never forget the mom (grandmother?) diapering and turning and feeding the elderly husband who had bitched about helping her walk to the garden after a C-section. That makes the idea of dying alone sound soooooo much better.
The other is the "rocket boosters" of Emotional Labor metaphor. A man I was mildly interested in recently said "good luck finding a guy to sign up for a LTR or committed dating if you're not going to move in and marry him." Hahaha. I live pretty frugally and realized this week that my one solid gold-plated extravagance is forgoing the economic benefits of Living With A Man. I'm lucky enough to get laid or have an activity partner pretty much whenever, and then send those nice (usually younger) men on their way until the next time. Not ruling out capital-L love, but no way in hell is anyone rushing it, ever again.
On Crone Island, let us have a research lab to develop a condom replacement that does not suck.
And thank you all so so much for sharing, and to those of you who are listening. Maybe there's hope.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 3:33 PM on July 30, 2015 [32 favorites]
I want this thread to not end until the pain and anger and frustration that's fueling it ends.
I've been to the gym and I'm back home now and I'm still fuming about my ex. I guess I never gave him much thought after I shook his dust off my shoes.
As I said he was a poor listener. So poor that I asked him for a divorce 3 times and finally just went ahead and filed, which came as a major shock to the little lamb. Now if your spouse asked you for a divorce what would you do? Probably sit down for a talk about how the marriage might be saved or suggest counseling or at the very least have a big emotional blow-up. My ex asked me to postpone the divorce proceedings because he had friends arriving from Japan the following month and he needed me to ferry them around and entertain them.
So, yes, me actually leaving him was a stunner. What's even crazier is I found out from my daughter that he is now extremely angry with me because he only just figured out a year or so ago that I am never coming back. I've been gone 15 years and remarried for 10.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:45 PM on July 30, 2015 [78 favorites]
I've been to the gym and I'm back home now and I'm still fuming about my ex. I guess I never gave him much thought after I shook his dust off my shoes.
As I said he was a poor listener. So poor that I asked him for a divorce 3 times and finally just went ahead and filed, which came as a major shock to the little lamb. Now if your spouse asked you for a divorce what would you do? Probably sit down for a talk about how the marriage might be saved or suggest counseling or at the very least have a big emotional blow-up. My ex asked me to postpone the divorce proceedings because he had friends arriving from Japan the following month and he needed me to ferry them around and entertain them.
So, yes, me actually leaving him was a stunner. What's even crazier is I found out from my daughter that he is now extremely angry with me because he only just figured out a year or so ago that I am never coming back. I've been gone 15 years and remarried for 10.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:45 PM on July 30, 2015 [78 favorites]
I'm really interested in the discussion in the other thread about the dating app that means women message first. So let me get this straight. Now we have to approach.
I think it was earlier in this very long thread that nadawi talked about choosing to be a homemaker and how that actually made her marriage the most equitable relationship she has had. I think a lot of women are enraged in part because all the seemingly obvious answers of letting women do Thing that men have always done -- like earn money or initiate a relationship -- seems to just make things worse. I am reminded of what I have heard about the Deep South -- that blacks apparently had it worse in the decades immediately after the civil war than they had it under slavery -- and it seems like that applies to women's lives as well. A lot of women seem to be in a situation where having a job just denies them the rights homemakers used to have while lightening the man's burden as sole breadwinner and not lightening her load of women's work at all.
This is not just my impression. I have seen studies done on how much women have to do at home after doing paid work all day and how little men have risen to the occasion. IIRC, full time moms do 60 hours a week of women's work. When a woman gets a full time job, she still does 40 hours of womens work. Men do a bit more of that than they used to. It amounts to something like an hour and 10 minutes more than men used to do per week. See, for example, "The Second Shift."
The very first time we slept together, I initiated sex with my husband. I also ended up kind of proposing. I thought I was pretty empowered compared to many women who seem unable to ask for these things. In our mid twenties he finally told me that he picked a fight with me about the pronunciation of a word as our very first conversation at age 16 in part as an excuse to talk to a pretty girl. So, in retrospect, he really initiated the relationship.
In recent years, I have found that it tends to go really badly when I try to initiate. It seems to go a lot better if he initiates. That doesn't mean I am just passive. I actively assess men and think about what I want and if they make the grade and so on. I have gotten a lot better at figuring out how to play the more traditional female role in an empowered way. In negotiating books, it always says the first person to name a number loses. If a man wants me, I figure that gives me some leeway to dictate terms. I do not need to "win" him.
I spend a lot of time wondering what that says about me or what that says about the world and so on. I don't really have answers. But I have thought for a long time that what women need far more than money per se is they need rights and power. That is what men have and money grows out of it. We keep thinking that this superficial style stuff is what sets us apart and missing something deeper, something more substantial. And that is why being able to initiate a date just becomes a new form of oppression and not some solution to our problem.
posted by Michele in California at 3:55 PM on July 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think it was earlier in this very long thread that nadawi talked about choosing to be a homemaker and how that actually made her marriage the most equitable relationship she has had. I think a lot of women are enraged in part because all the seemingly obvious answers of letting women do Thing that men have always done -- like earn money or initiate a relationship -- seems to just make things worse. I am reminded of what I have heard about the Deep South -- that blacks apparently had it worse in the decades immediately after the civil war than they had it under slavery -- and it seems like that applies to women's lives as well. A lot of women seem to be in a situation where having a job just denies them the rights homemakers used to have while lightening the man's burden as sole breadwinner and not lightening her load of women's work at all.
This is not just my impression. I have seen studies done on how much women have to do at home after doing paid work all day and how little men have risen to the occasion. IIRC, full time moms do 60 hours a week of women's work. When a woman gets a full time job, she still does 40 hours of womens work. Men do a bit more of that than they used to. It amounts to something like an hour and 10 minutes more than men used to do per week. See, for example, "The Second Shift."
The very first time we slept together, I initiated sex with my husband. I also ended up kind of proposing. I thought I was pretty empowered compared to many women who seem unable to ask for these things. In our mid twenties he finally told me that he picked a fight with me about the pronunciation of a word as our very first conversation at age 16 in part as an excuse to talk to a pretty girl. So, in retrospect, he really initiated the relationship.
In recent years, I have found that it tends to go really badly when I try to initiate. It seems to go a lot better if he initiates. That doesn't mean I am just passive. I actively assess men and think about what I want and if they make the grade and so on. I have gotten a lot better at figuring out how to play the more traditional female role in an empowered way. In negotiating books, it always says the first person to name a number loses. If a man wants me, I figure that gives me some leeway to dictate terms. I do not need to "win" him.
I spend a lot of time wondering what that says about me or what that says about the world and so on. I don't really have answers. But I have thought for a long time that what women need far more than money per se is they need rights and power. That is what men have and money grows out of it. We keep thinking that this superficial style stuff is what sets us apart and missing something deeper, something more substantial. And that is why being able to initiate a date just becomes a new form of oppression and not some solution to our problem.
posted by Michele in California at 3:55 PM on July 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
My ex asked me to postpone the divorce proceedings because he had friends arriving from Japan the following month and he needed me to ferry them around and entertain them.
If you don't mind my asking, aside from (obviously) divorcing his ass, how did you respond to that? I mean, in the moment. Because I just kind of stared at the screen and blinked for a couple of minutes.
posted by skybluepink at 3:58 PM on July 30, 2015 [28 favorites]
If you don't mind my asking, aside from (obviously) divorcing his ass, how did you respond to that? I mean, in the moment. Because I just kind of stared at the screen and blinked for a couple of minutes.
posted by skybluepink at 3:58 PM on July 30, 2015 [28 favorites]
What's even crazier is I found out from my daughter that he is now extremely angry with me because he only just figured out a year or so ago that I am never coming back. I've been gone 15 years and remarried for 10.
holy goddamn balls.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:02 PM on July 30, 2015 [27 favorites]
holy goddamn balls.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:02 PM on July 30, 2015 [27 favorites]
I asked him for a divorce 3 times and finally just went ahead and filed, which came as a major shock to the little lamb.
Secret Life of Gravy, when my first husband (I was 19! He looked like Mick Jagger!) "threatened" me with divorce I said "You'll never do it. Because that would mean walking your ass to the phone book, looking under A for Attorney and making a call. Ain't gonna happen."
I held on another year or so and then Thank Jesus looked in the Yellow Pages my own self.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 4:10 PM on July 30, 2015 [42 favorites]
Secret Life of Gravy, when my first husband (I was 19! He looked like Mick Jagger!) "threatened" me with divorce I said "You'll never do it. Because that would mean walking your ass to the phone book, looking under A for Attorney and making a call. Ain't gonna happen."
I held on another year or so and then Thank Jesus looked in the Yellow Pages my own self.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 4:10 PM on July 30, 2015 [42 favorites]
nadawi talked about choosing to be a homemaker and how that actually made her marriage the most equitable relationship she has had. I think a lot of women are enraged in part because all the seemingly obvious answers of letting women do Thing that men have always done -- like earn money or initiate a relationship -- seems to just make things worse.
yep. and, i want to say that i also worry that my choosing to stay home makes things worse for women - that i should be out there fighting the good fight. i admit i'm just tired of the fight. i admit that i picked my own comfort over moving the dial for women in the office. i admit that i'm absurdly privileged for even getting to make this choice (although make no mistake, there are a lot of compromises to make this work, including a complete lack of vacations and cable, one car that was made in the 90s etc). i do worry about what happens if our situations change because of how long i've been out of the workforce (but i've also maintained relationships that should allow me to step back into the spot i left 7 years ago). i do worry if i made the right choice. i do worry that other feminist women judge me. i do try to help the cause in other ways because i know that in some ways i took the easy road.
none of our choices are the right ones for everyone or even for ourselves, we're all just doing the best we can with what's in front of us, i think.
posted by nadawi at 4:12 PM on July 30, 2015 [33 favorites]
yep. and, i want to say that i also worry that my choosing to stay home makes things worse for women - that i should be out there fighting the good fight. i admit i'm just tired of the fight. i admit that i picked my own comfort over moving the dial for women in the office. i admit that i'm absurdly privileged for even getting to make this choice (although make no mistake, there are a lot of compromises to make this work, including a complete lack of vacations and cable, one car that was made in the 90s etc). i do worry about what happens if our situations change because of how long i've been out of the workforce (but i've also maintained relationships that should allow me to step back into the spot i left 7 years ago). i do worry if i made the right choice. i do worry that other feminist women judge me. i do try to help the cause in other ways because i know that in some ways i took the easy road.
none of our choices are the right ones for everyone or even for ourselves, we're all just doing the best we can with what's in front of us, i think.
posted by nadawi at 4:12 PM on July 30, 2015 [33 favorites]
My ex asked me to postpone the divorce proceedings because he had friends arriving from Japan the following month and he needed me to ferry them around and entertain them.
If you don't mind my asking, aside from (obviously) divorcing his ass, how did you respond to that? I mean, in the moment. Because I just kind of stared at the screen and blinked for a couple of minutes.
Well that was the first time I asked him for a divorce so I did what I always did with him, I waited for him to think about it and start asking me questions. While I was waiting I raised my daughter and did the housework and then I ferried and entertained people who spoke almost no English ( the ex took no time off from work). Then I asked him for a divorce after the guests left. No response. A month later I asked-- no, told him that I was filing-- for a divorce and left the house. He was served with papers on Christmas Eve (not my timing) and at that point he decided to get a lawyer.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
If you don't mind my asking, aside from (obviously) divorcing his ass, how did you respond to that? I mean, in the moment. Because I just kind of stared at the screen and blinked for a couple of minutes.
Well that was the first time I asked him for a divorce so I did what I always did with him, I waited for him to think about it and start asking me questions. While I was waiting I raised my daughter and did the housework and then I ferried and entertained people who spoke almost no English ( the ex took no time off from work). Then I asked him for a divorce after the guests left. No response. A month later I asked-- no, told him that I was filing-- for a divorce and left the house. He was served with papers on Christmas Eve (not my timing) and at that point he decided to get a lawyer.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:14 PM on July 30, 2015 [12 favorites]
oh! hit post too soon. i do love that when my best friend's husband tries to shame her because of all the things i do for my home and husband she fires right back at him, "oh, you want what nadawi's husband gets?? well first we'll talk about what nadawi gets!" she still ends up doing way more than her share but at least she won't let him guilt her on the back of my choices into functionally being a housewife while she works 50+ hours a week.
posted by nadawi at 4:15 PM on July 30, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 4:15 PM on July 30, 2015 [32 favorites]
none of our choices are the right ones for everyone or even for ourselves
BRB getting another tattoo.
Less flippantly, this is yet another part of the thread putting into succinct words something I have flailed about trying to express lately, as I think back on a lot of my relationship and career choices and ponder the kinds of choices I may need to make in future. There are a lot of things I may do in the next few years that will be, hopefully, the ones I need to make and the best ones possible, but they still may not be the "right" ones for me, and acknowledging that in the face of the boundless and frankly lunatic optimism of folks around me is really hard.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:40 PM on July 30, 2015 [13 favorites]
i also worry that my choosing to stay home makes things worse for women - that i should be out there fighting the good fight.
I totally get that worry... but just thinking about how to respond to that without blithely chirping "you have the right to make your own choices, that's what feminism is all about!" made me have to start thinking about choice feminism and the backlash against choice feminism and how the society we live in makes some of those choices a lot easier by essentially choosing for us by providing little to no support for women who buck "traditional" women's roles, and I'm already tired just thinking about all of it.
posted by palomar at 5:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
I totally get that worry... but just thinking about how to respond to that without blithely chirping "you have the right to make your own choices, that's what feminism is all about!" made me have to start thinking about choice feminism and the backlash against choice feminism and how the society we live in makes some of those choices a lot easier by essentially choosing for us by providing little to no support for women who buck "traditional" women's roles, and I'm already tired just thinking about all of it.
posted by palomar at 5:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
i also worry that my choosing to stay home makes things worse for women - that i should be out there fighting the good fight.
I don't know, I almost feel like it's a radical act of defiance compared to working at a typical American company. There's no guarantee you'd be allowed to fight the good fight at most places of employment.
But I just gone done reading this essay on work-life balance in Switzerland and I kind of want to set everything on fire, so I may just be in a terrible mood about employment.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:56 PM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
I don't know, I almost feel like it's a radical act of defiance compared to working at a typical American company. There's no guarantee you'd be allowed to fight the good fight at most places of employment.
But I just gone done reading this essay on work-life balance in Switzerland and I kind of want to set everything on fire, so I may just be in a terrible mood about employment.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:56 PM on July 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
I totally get that worry... but just thinking about how to respond to that without blithely chirping "you have the right to make your own choices, that's what feminism is all about!" made me have to start thinking about choice feminism and the backlash against choice feminism and how the society we live in makes some of those choices a lot easier by essentially choosing for us by providing little to no support for women who buck "traditional" women's roles, and I'm already tired just thinking about all of it.
My current conclusion is that while I hate Choice Feminism, because I don't believe that any choice a woman makes is automatically feminist just because she chose it, I think it's important to remember that all women, no matter how feminist, have to make non-feminist choices all the time, and very likely anti-feminist choices fairly often, just to survive in a patriarchal society. It goes back to the "Why does she put up with this bullshit?" idea -- she puts up with it because the fucked-up kyriarchy/patriarchy ensures that all her choices are going to suck, and so each woman needs to do complex calculus to figure out the least-objectionable choice. And yeah, some of them are going to hurt other women, and it's important to minimize that as much as possible, but it's also important to be as compassionate as possible about the concessions that you yourself need to make to the kyriarchy in order to survive, maintain one's mental health, and/or get through the day, and to be as compassionate as possible to other women who are doing the same.
I think (though I haven't yet read it) that Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist is about the same sort of ideas, that we all have to make "bad" choices but that shouldn't disqualify us from being feminist. I mean, really, I think it can't disqualify us, as it's fucking impossible to live in contemporary society and be a "perfect" feminist. And I think this type of framing helps remind us that holding feminists up to an impossible standard is crap, and that it's ok to choose the easier non-/anti-feminist option sometimes, and that doing so doesn't taint you forever or mean that your opinions about anything feminism-related are forever discounted. We all need to get by.
posted by jaguar at 6:51 PM on July 30, 2015 [48 favorites]
My current conclusion is that while I hate Choice Feminism, because I don't believe that any choice a woman makes is automatically feminist just because she chose it, I think it's important to remember that all women, no matter how feminist, have to make non-feminist choices all the time, and very likely anti-feminist choices fairly often, just to survive in a patriarchal society. It goes back to the "Why does she put up with this bullshit?" idea -- she puts up with it because the fucked-up kyriarchy/patriarchy ensures that all her choices are going to suck, and so each woman needs to do complex calculus to figure out the least-objectionable choice. And yeah, some of them are going to hurt other women, and it's important to minimize that as much as possible, but it's also important to be as compassionate as possible about the concessions that you yourself need to make to the kyriarchy in order to survive, maintain one's mental health, and/or get through the day, and to be as compassionate as possible to other women who are doing the same.
I think (though I haven't yet read it) that Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist is about the same sort of ideas, that we all have to make "bad" choices but that shouldn't disqualify us from being feminist. I mean, really, I think it can't disqualify us, as it's fucking impossible to live in contemporary society and be a "perfect" feminist. And I think this type of framing helps remind us that holding feminists up to an impossible standard is crap, and that it's ok to choose the easier non-/anti-feminist option sometimes, and that doing so doesn't taint you forever or mean that your opinions about anything feminism-related are forever discounted. We all need to get by.
posted by jaguar at 6:51 PM on July 30, 2015 [48 favorites]
> Yeah, but I've had moments of not understanding why women put up with this shit, and I'm a woman putting up with this shit. So let's not drive someone obviously engaging in good faith out of the room the minute he reveals a flaw in his understanding.
QFT. Sheesh.
posted by desuetude at 8:01 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
QFT. Sheesh.
posted by desuetude at 8:01 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, jaguar, thank you, I'm pretty sure this is what I was trying to mean when I was roaring the other day about "I DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR APOLOGIZING RAAAAAARRRR."
posted by Don Pepino at 8:24 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Don Pepino at 8:24 PM on July 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, jaguar, thank you, I'm pretty sure this is what I was trying to mean when I was roaring the other day about "I DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR APOLOGIZING RAAAAAARRRR."
Ha, yeah, choice feminism ignores societal pressures, and non... choice...? feminism can tend to ignore the realities of living as a woman in the world, especially the realities of living as a straight woman in the world. My father always defined feminism as the right for women to be as mediocre as men, and while I don't subscribe to quite that same level of cynicism, I appreciate the idea that women should not have to be perfect in order to be respected.
posted by jaguar at 8:29 PM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Ha, yeah, choice feminism ignores societal pressures, and non... choice...? feminism can tend to ignore the realities of living as a woman in the world, especially the realities of living as a straight woman in the world. My father always defined feminism as the right for women to be as mediocre as men, and while I don't subscribe to quite that same level of cynicism, I appreciate the idea that women should not have to be perfect in order to be respected.
posted by jaguar at 8:29 PM on July 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
Oh, please read Bad Feminist ASAP. Roxane Gay is a damn treasure. Definitely Crone Island material.
posted by palomar at 8:38 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by palomar at 8:38 PM on July 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
She really is.
I was on an SFO-CPH direct flight. The guy in front of me kept banging his seat into my knees, turning around to lecture me about how he needed to sleep, and threatening to get the stewardess to come over. (Yes, he gendered that.)
I finally said that he was more than welcome to tell whomever he wanted, but I wanted to know exactly why he thought he was entitled to sit however he wanted and I was not. And I picked back up the book I was reading- Bad Feminist. There was not a peep out of him for the rest of that 10 hour flight.
posted by susiswimmer at 8:48 PM on July 30, 2015 [50 favorites]
I was on an SFO-CPH direct flight. The guy in front of me kept banging his seat into my knees, turning around to lecture me about how he needed to sleep, and threatening to get the stewardess to come over. (Yes, he gendered that.)
I finally said that he was more than welcome to tell whomever he wanted, but I wanted to know exactly why he thought he was entitled to sit however he wanted and I was not. And I picked back up the book I was reading- Bad Feminist. There was not a peep out of him for the rest of that 10 hour flight.
posted by susiswimmer at 8:48 PM on July 30, 2015 [50 favorites]
Roxane Gay is a damn treasure. Definitely Crone Island material.
I got in my car a day or two ago and NPR started up and I was listening to an awesome and nuanced and wonderful discussion about race and police brutality and gender and I wondered, "Who on earth is this wonderful person they are interviewing?" and it turns out is was Roxane Gay, and I realized, once they said her name, that I have had multiple previous experiences of wondering "Who is this person that is so awesome in talking about feminism and racism and cis-sism and other intersectional issues?" and it turning out to be Roxane Gay.
posted by jaguar at 8:52 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
I got in my car a day or two ago and NPR started up and I was listening to an awesome and nuanced and wonderful discussion about race and police brutality and gender and I wondered, "Who on earth is this wonderful person they are interviewing?" and it turns out is was Roxane Gay, and I realized, once they said her name, that I have had multiple previous experiences of wondering "Who is this person that is so awesome in talking about feminism and racism and cis-sism and other intersectional issues?" and it turning out to be Roxane Gay.
posted by jaguar at 8:52 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
She is a lovely human being and I'm not just saying that because she signed my book "you're hot."
posted by babelfish at 9:03 PM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
posted by babelfish at 9:03 PM on July 30, 2015 [34 favorites]
Dammit, now I want a "Bad Feminist" book signing near me!
posted by jaguar at 9:04 PM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 9:04 PM on July 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
When I was married, I felt like a dog begging for scraps of his affection. I hated it with every goddamned fiber of my being. But I put up with it for much longer than I should have, because I had so much invested in that relationship, and because it made my life so much easier in most of the day-to-day practical ways [...]
Oh yes, this brings back so many memories. Anyone who wanted a war story, here you go. My 13-year relationship with the guy I moved to the other side of the world in order to be with was a lot like that. To make things more complicated, it was a poly relationship which really wasn't going to work because, as it turns out, I'm not poly. Not that I realised that at the time, I thought that intellectually deciding something made sense was enough to make it work.
Anyway, I moved in with him and his pre-existing partner and for a very awkward two years had the fun of negotiating the fallout of leaving my friends, my family and everything familiar behind for this guy who was spending at least half his time with another woman, in the same house. He was sweet and caring and devoted a lot of emotional labour to helping me get through that. He liked to be Mr Fixit who could come in and make things better - make me better. (This was around the time the first Garbage album came out and, we quickly identified "Fix Me Now" as a kind of musical summary of the relationship. Blech.) I thought that the move, the unemployment, the lack of friends, not being poly enough were why I wasn't happy, why part of me just shrivelled up every time I could hear him having sex with his other partner two rooms away.
Things got better as I started to make friends, eventually found work and carved out a place for myself. They especially got better when we were able to move out of the flat he shared with his first partner. He still split his home time between the two of us but at least we weren't all in the same house and I had something more than a room. It still bothered me that sometimes when I really needed him to be around, he wasn't. And although I now had more space of my own to live in, it turned out (you guessed it) that because I lived there all the time and also had a lower "mess tolerance" I did the cooking, I did the cleaning. But it was still a big improvement.
However it wasn't ever really just him + me + her, because there were all the other women, mostly online, that he also had relationships with (some of them also pre-dated me, but there were plenty after). There were the once/twice-yearly trips to the US so he could visit all these other partners in a kind of extended fuckathon. There was, of course, all the emotional labour he spent on them - emails, extended phone calls, etc. There was dealing with my jealousy, my feelings of inadequacy, my misery. Because of course it was something wrong with me. He was still Mr Fixit! He had all the answers! Even when it wasn't about any of his other relationships, it was "discussions" which he greatly enjoyed and I loathed, about anything. Reducing characters in books we'd both read to D&D-type stats and who would be more powerful in X attribute or Y skill. Why God doesn't exist and why anyone who thinks so is mentally deluded. How smokers would be punished if he were in charge of the world. He had ALL the answers, so of course if I ever disagreed with him, I was not only wrong, but in need of re-education. I used to cling to the few examples I had of him actually being wrong and bring them out as a last-ditch attempt to reclaim some ground he hadn't already stomped all over.
Occasionally I'd try getting involved with someone else, because poly was meant to be something I was into and not just a thing I put up with about him. It never really worked out; I had a tendency to get overly emotionally invested in guys who must have been very confused (she already has a partner, this can just be a pure sex thing, awesome!) and girls who seemed to think sex with girls was okay when there wasn't a guy around, but guys were better. I won't give myself a pass here, I behaved pretty badly too sometimes. 20-somethings, it's what they do. But I kept insisting to myself that this was not ideal, but the best of both worlds. And what else could I do? How could I make it on my own? He paid the lion's share of the rent and bills because he made more money than I did. Surely the housework was my way of contributing what I could. It wasn't so bad really. It's just I needed to be better at being poly, at believing what he told me, at not bringing up topics that made me feel like he was trampling over my soul when we "discussed" them.
Years went by and we settled into a holding pattern. We'd have conversations periodically about how I'd get annoyed when he worked late without calling me, wanted to change plans at the last minute. He didn't understand how I rearranged my life around him, that I made plans to see my other friends on non-him nights so that when I did have time with him, it was time with him. Why don't you see your friends whenever you want? I can entertain myself, he'd say. I tried to explain that between his work, his other local partner, his long-distance partners and his computer gaming habits I was already operating in an economy of scarcity where he was the prized commodity. Of course I had to rearrange my life around him if I wanted him to be in it at all. We already had the constant negotiations (with him as mediator and sole communicator) about which of us local partners got to see X film with him, or which significant holiday was with him. I was already the source of problems for so much. Also add the layer of guilt that by conspiring with him for me to move to the country to be with him, I had completely dicked over his other local partner, who now had to fight for his time and attention because we certainly didn't consult her or ask her permission.
Wow, more and more things are coming back as I think about it. The time he decided we should make brunch at home rather than go out and I did it all. Eggs, bacon, mushrooms, toast, coffee, the works. Subsequently I made him help and after bossing me around initially, he got flustered and stressed out because it's actually quite a delicate balancing act to prepare so many different dishes and have them all be done at pretty much the same time so that it's all hot and ready to eat. It's not undoable, but you need to pay attention. The time he decided that he wanted to level-up his cooking skills by cooking once a week. He decided to start with a pad thai, which he quite liked eating. I offered to help. You can imagine how well this went. It was, I think, the only time he did that. His idea of cooking, after all, was to take raw bread and make it into cooked bread (ie, toast). When he ate things I cooked, he'd load them up with chilli, tobasco and the like before tasting it, shovel it in in about two minutes and never thank me. "I'm eating it, aren't I?" he'd say if challenged. I remember one of his friends, who later came out as gay, coming round and posing a whole bunch of questions: "What are Athanassiel's favourite flowers? What's her favourite kind of wine? What kind of chocolate does she like best?" and for every answer he knew, HIS FRIEND knew the answer to about three. He used to try to get me to iron his work shirts for him at night even though he said I didn't do it as well as he did.
Anyway this is incredibly long already, sorry. Fast forward quickly: met a woman that I fell head-over-heels for, tried to keep a relationship going with both of them, much drama, worked out eventually that although poly is totally a valid choice for many people, it is not for me and I didn't want to be in a relationship with them both and in fact I didn't want to be in a relationship with him. Broke up with him. And it turned out that in fact, I could support myself financially and look after myself and I was a lot stronger than I thought. I was even strong enough to realise (eventually) that the relationship with her was completely fucked-up too (that's another story) and it needed to end. I've had two partners since then, both women, and although I'm now single and fully expect to remain so for the rest of my life, I really cannot see a relationship with a man being the thing to tempt me out of Crone-dom. (Howls at moon.)
posted by Athanassiel at 9:05 PM on July 30, 2015 [49 favorites]
Oh yes, this brings back so many memories. Anyone who wanted a war story, here you go. My 13-year relationship with the guy I moved to the other side of the world in order to be with was a lot like that. To make things more complicated, it was a poly relationship which really wasn't going to work because, as it turns out, I'm not poly. Not that I realised that at the time, I thought that intellectually deciding something made sense was enough to make it work.
Anyway, I moved in with him and his pre-existing partner and for a very awkward two years had the fun of negotiating the fallout of leaving my friends, my family and everything familiar behind for this guy who was spending at least half his time with another woman, in the same house. He was sweet and caring and devoted a lot of emotional labour to helping me get through that. He liked to be Mr Fixit who could come in and make things better - make me better. (This was around the time the first Garbage album came out and, we quickly identified "Fix Me Now" as a kind of musical summary of the relationship. Blech.) I thought that the move, the unemployment, the lack of friends, not being poly enough were why I wasn't happy, why part of me just shrivelled up every time I could hear him having sex with his other partner two rooms away.
Things got better as I started to make friends, eventually found work and carved out a place for myself. They especially got better when we were able to move out of the flat he shared with his first partner. He still split his home time between the two of us but at least we weren't all in the same house and I had something more than a room. It still bothered me that sometimes when I really needed him to be around, he wasn't. And although I now had more space of my own to live in, it turned out (you guessed it) that because I lived there all the time and also had a lower "mess tolerance" I did the cooking, I did the cleaning. But it was still a big improvement.
However it wasn't ever really just him + me + her, because there were all the other women, mostly online, that he also had relationships with (some of them also pre-dated me, but there were plenty after). There were the once/twice-yearly trips to the US so he could visit all these other partners in a kind of extended fuckathon. There was, of course, all the emotional labour he spent on them - emails, extended phone calls, etc. There was dealing with my jealousy, my feelings of inadequacy, my misery. Because of course it was something wrong with me. He was still Mr Fixit! He had all the answers! Even when it wasn't about any of his other relationships, it was "discussions" which he greatly enjoyed and I loathed, about anything. Reducing characters in books we'd both read to D&D-type stats and who would be more powerful in X attribute or Y skill. Why God doesn't exist and why anyone who thinks so is mentally deluded. How smokers would be punished if he were in charge of the world. He had ALL the answers, so of course if I ever disagreed with him, I was not only wrong, but in need of re-education. I used to cling to the few examples I had of him actually being wrong and bring them out as a last-ditch attempt to reclaim some ground he hadn't already stomped all over.
Occasionally I'd try getting involved with someone else, because poly was meant to be something I was into and not just a thing I put up with about him. It never really worked out; I had a tendency to get overly emotionally invested in guys who must have been very confused (she already has a partner, this can just be a pure sex thing, awesome!) and girls who seemed to think sex with girls was okay when there wasn't a guy around, but guys were better. I won't give myself a pass here, I behaved pretty badly too sometimes. 20-somethings, it's what they do. But I kept insisting to myself that this was not ideal, but the best of both worlds. And what else could I do? How could I make it on my own? He paid the lion's share of the rent and bills because he made more money than I did. Surely the housework was my way of contributing what I could. It wasn't so bad really. It's just I needed to be better at being poly, at believing what he told me, at not bringing up topics that made me feel like he was trampling over my soul when we "discussed" them.
Years went by and we settled into a holding pattern. We'd have conversations periodically about how I'd get annoyed when he worked late without calling me, wanted to change plans at the last minute. He didn't understand how I rearranged my life around him, that I made plans to see my other friends on non-him nights so that when I did have time with him, it was time with him. Why don't you see your friends whenever you want? I can entertain myself, he'd say. I tried to explain that between his work, his other local partner, his long-distance partners and his computer gaming habits I was already operating in an economy of scarcity where he was the prized commodity. Of course I had to rearrange my life around him if I wanted him to be in it at all. We already had the constant negotiations (with him as mediator and sole communicator) about which of us local partners got to see X film with him, or which significant holiday was with him. I was already the source of problems for so much. Also add the layer of guilt that by conspiring with him for me to move to the country to be with him, I had completely dicked over his other local partner, who now had to fight for his time and attention because we certainly didn't consult her or ask her permission.
Wow, more and more things are coming back as I think about it. The time he decided we should make brunch at home rather than go out and I did it all. Eggs, bacon, mushrooms, toast, coffee, the works. Subsequently I made him help and after bossing me around initially, he got flustered and stressed out because it's actually quite a delicate balancing act to prepare so many different dishes and have them all be done at pretty much the same time so that it's all hot and ready to eat. It's not undoable, but you need to pay attention. The time he decided that he wanted to level-up his cooking skills by cooking once a week. He decided to start with a pad thai, which he quite liked eating. I offered to help. You can imagine how well this went. It was, I think, the only time he did that. His idea of cooking, after all, was to take raw bread and make it into cooked bread (ie, toast). When he ate things I cooked, he'd load them up with chilli, tobasco and the like before tasting it, shovel it in in about two minutes and never thank me. "I'm eating it, aren't I?" he'd say if challenged. I remember one of his friends, who later came out as gay, coming round and posing a whole bunch of questions: "What are Athanassiel's favourite flowers? What's her favourite kind of wine? What kind of chocolate does she like best?" and for every answer he knew, HIS FRIEND knew the answer to about three. He used to try to get me to iron his work shirts for him at night even though he said I didn't do it as well as he did.
Anyway this is incredibly long already, sorry. Fast forward quickly: met a woman that I fell head-over-heels for, tried to keep a relationship going with both of them, much drama, worked out eventually that although poly is totally a valid choice for many people, it is not for me and I didn't want to be in a relationship with them both and in fact I didn't want to be in a relationship with him. Broke up with him. And it turned out that in fact, I could support myself financially and look after myself and I was a lot stronger than I thought. I was even strong enough to realise (eventually) that the relationship with her was completely fucked-up too (that's another story) and it needed to end. I've had two partners since then, both women, and although I'm now single and fully expect to remain so for the rest of my life, I really cannot see a relationship with a man being the thing to tempt me out of Crone-dom. (Howls at moon.)
posted by Athanassiel at 9:05 PM on July 30, 2015 [49 favorites]
Athanassiel, many hugs.
And... Aaaaaoooooooooooohh!
posted by susiswimmer at 9:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
And... Aaaaaoooooooooooohh!
posted by susiswimmer at 9:13 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
choice feminism ignores societal pressures
fwiw, me and my other choice feminists don't ignore this at all - we just come to a place much like you've described, where we realize some pressures weigh heavier than others and we're doing the best we can and we refuse to be made the enemy for that. it's one reason why i yell so loudly that housewives and sex workers should best each others biggest supporters - we're running a similar hustle and we're hated in similar ways and yet somehow we let society pit us as enemies.
anyway, i appreciate the larger point of what you're saying, just suggesting that choice feminists don't hand wave all this stuff away, we just maybe come to different conclusions than others. like we're both saying, it's all about making the best choices in the moment and trying to figure out how to survive while making things better.
posted by nadawi at 9:23 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
fwiw, me and my other choice feminists don't ignore this at all - we just come to a place much like you've described, where we realize some pressures weigh heavier than others and we're doing the best we can and we refuse to be made the enemy for that. it's one reason why i yell so loudly that housewives and sex workers should best each others biggest supporters - we're running a similar hustle and we're hated in similar ways and yet somehow we let society pit us as enemies.
anyway, i appreciate the larger point of what you're saying, just suggesting that choice feminists don't hand wave all this stuff away, we just maybe come to different conclusions than others. like we're both saying, it's all about making the best choices in the moment and trying to figure out how to survive while making things better.
posted by nadawi at 9:23 PM on July 30, 2015 [18 favorites]
I am totally willing to believe that I'm stereotyping choice-feminists based on a few unrepresentative "But I'm choooosing my choice!" internet comments.
posted by jaguar at 9:28 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 9:28 PM on July 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just popped up on my FB feed: comic about choice feminism.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:29 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Athanassiel at 10:29 PM on July 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
But he happened to (oops) phrase it exactly like the last three dozen guys we've dealt with who said "if your MIL doesn't like your housekeeping, why do you put up with her?" or "if your boss is such a jerk, why don't you leave that job?" or "if your husband, the father of your four children, is a sexist slob, why don't you walk away from him?" (Or, as noted upthread, "if you don't like sending Christmas cards, why do you bother?")
Whatever the intention, he managed to tap into the same pattern that we get slammed with, over and over--the initial question followed by a claim that any complaints are somehow invalid if we don't intend to follow up with a threat of "fix it or else I'm gone."
I just had one of these kinds of discussions yesterday, and I think this thread helped me choose my words about it. I pointed out that while I appreciated that he was angry on my behalf about a thing and wanted to be supportive, it wasn't supportive to get mad at me for not doing something dramatic about it, or only suggest things that involved ultimatums. Support would be listening to how I feel, talking through it with me, and then helping me make the most of a bad situation as I work to make it better.
posted by limeonaire at 10:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
Whatever the intention, he managed to tap into the same pattern that we get slammed with, over and over--the initial question followed by a claim that any complaints are somehow invalid if we don't intend to follow up with a threat of "fix it or else I'm gone."
I just had one of these kinds of discussions yesterday, and I think this thread helped me choose my words about it. I pointed out that while I appreciated that he was angry on my behalf about a thing and wanted to be supportive, it wasn't supportive to get mad at me for not doing something dramatic about it, or only suggest things that involved ultimatums. Support would be listening to how I feel, talking through it with me, and then helping me make the most of a bad situation as I work to make it better.
posted by limeonaire at 10:31 PM on July 30, 2015 [22 favorites]
I hate the erasure of the work it takes to walk away.
I walked away from a non-romantic relationship because I wasn't going to do all the emotional labour of self-soothing while they got to continue being assholes.
So I get to manage life around them.
I still get to hear updates about them.
They are still part of my life because childcare doesn't magically appear when you want it to, because my husband still has a relationship with them, because they're still his friends.
I get to be confronted with them.
I get to manage my emotions when they reinsert thmselves into my life.
Just walk away is a stupid, shitty, and ultimately failure-bound method of dealing with this stuff because someone still picks up the labour.
(I had a dream last night, that one of the 'friends' I walked away from - the one who could never stop himself from putting my character in unwanted sexual situations in the game we played - moved to my suburb. In my dream when I found out I told my husband I was leaving, packed me and the kid up, and moved two states away. I can't guarantee that wouldn't be my preferred solution if it happened in real life, but the thought of the labour involved in walking away makes the labour I do seem less intense.)
posted by geek anachronism at 12:22 AM on July 31, 2015 [26 favorites]
I walked away from a non-romantic relationship because I wasn't going to do all the emotional labour of self-soothing while they got to continue being assholes.
So I get to manage life around them.
I still get to hear updates about them.
They are still part of my life because childcare doesn't magically appear when you want it to, because my husband still has a relationship with them, because they're still his friends.
I get to be confronted with them.
I get to manage my emotions when they reinsert thmselves into my life.
Just walk away is a stupid, shitty, and ultimately failure-bound method of dealing with this stuff because someone still picks up the labour.
(I had a dream last night, that one of the 'friends' I walked away from - the one who could never stop himself from putting my character in unwanted sexual situations in the game we played - moved to my suburb. In my dream when I found out I told my husband I was leaving, packed me and the kid up, and moved two states away. I can't guarantee that wouldn't be my preferred solution if it happened in real life, but the thought of the labour involved in walking away makes the labour I do seem less intense.)
posted by geek anachronism at 12:22 AM on July 31, 2015 [26 favorites]
the one who could never stop himself from putting my character in unwanted sexual situations in the game we played
As a roleplayer (both tabletop and online by PBEM/board/journal): how disgusting! It's like demanding all the emotional labor of the pretend relationship PLUS all the emotional labor of dealing with sexual harassment without offending the harasser and/or upsetting the group vibe. PLUS the bonus deniability of "it's just a game" even though it's basically their avatar harassing your avatar. I suppose it's less on-the-spot jaw-drop horrifying than in-character rape threats as a low-level attempt to drive out the lady interloper (been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt) but that's a low hurdle.
(Another thing I will do on Crone Island: I will GM some of the games, and we will have better social contracts.)
posted by immlass at 1:17 AM on July 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
As a roleplayer (both tabletop and online by PBEM/board/journal): how disgusting! It's like demanding all the emotional labor of the pretend relationship PLUS all the emotional labor of dealing with sexual harassment without offending the harasser and/or upsetting the group vibe. PLUS the bonus deniability of "it's just a game" even though it's basically their avatar harassing your avatar. I suppose it's less on-the-spot jaw-drop horrifying than in-character rape threats as a low-level attempt to drive out the lady interloper (been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt) but that's a low hurdle.
(Another thing I will do on Crone Island: I will GM some of the games, and we will have better social contracts.)
posted by immlass at 1:17 AM on July 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
I am popping back into the thread to say that I wrote an email to a beloved friend who is a Crone to thank her for her friendship which I hadn't reciprocated recently due to my rough patch, no reply needed just a thank you, you are lovely, and she wrote back to say I just posted you a letter to say that *I* wish I'd reached out more. And I just got the letter - a sort of Gift of Magi emotional labor exchange, and as a surprise another friend sent me hand knit socks with mismatching yarn and a note about spoons and making do, and -
how the fuck could anyone want to miss out on this? I know it's partly hormonal and reproductive - many of us want a romantic sexual partner, but a web of friendship from nodding neighbours to best friends across oceans - all those relationships make the world so much richer.
If a wicked wizard cursed my children to choose between a life of amazing friendships and no marriage, or a life of no friendships and an amazing marriage - I'd choose the friendships now. You can live without marriage, but not without friendships. Well, you can live, but it's a pretty crummy sort of life.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:55 AM on July 31, 2015 [39 favorites]
how the fuck could anyone want to miss out on this? I know it's partly hormonal and reproductive - many of us want a romantic sexual partner, but a web of friendship from nodding neighbours to best friends across oceans - all those relationships make the world so much richer.
If a wicked wizard cursed my children to choose between a life of amazing friendships and no marriage, or a life of no friendships and an amazing marriage - I'd choose the friendships now. You can live without marriage, but not without friendships. Well, you can live, but it's a pretty crummy sort of life.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:55 AM on July 31, 2015 [39 favorites]
What made it worse was he was GM. So it was that endless 'but this is just how the NPC is' and 'wah wah wah realism' and 'well these guards don't know you broke the other ones' and 'this guy thinks you won't hurt him' and so on. And after I finally lost my shit the rest of the group were like 'well maybe lets play the other game with him' as if that was any better. Like it was the game that made him an asshole. But yeah, my therapist is like "so why won't you call it sexual harassment? That's what it sounds like." and I don't really have an answer any better than 'because if I did I'd have to ask why people stood by and did nothing' and I don't want to do that labour either.
Upshot is new game, new group, full of fucking awesome people. Still got the labour though - new game starting up in a few days and after that dream last night I can feel myself getting anxious, even though I know the GM is awesome (able to have the game set in a canonically misogynist setting locale yet no rape threats or propositioning or anything like that at all) and all the other players are great. I still have this work to do while those assholes sit there and get to do fucking nothing. Bitching about girls taking things too seriously and how up myself I am.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:17 AM on July 31, 2015 [13 favorites]
Upshot is new game, new group, full of fucking awesome people. Still got the labour though - new game starting up in a few days and after that dream last night I can feel myself getting anxious, even though I know the GM is awesome (able to have the game set in a canonically misogynist setting locale yet no rape threats or propositioning or anything like that at all) and all the other players are great. I still have this work to do while those assholes sit there and get to do fucking nothing. Bitching about girls taking things too seriously and how up myself I am.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:17 AM on July 31, 2015 [13 favorites]
My father always defined feminism as the right for women to be as mediocre as men, and while I don't subscribe to quite that same level of cynicism
I love a good quip and that one tickles the same funny bone for me as "PMS describes the four days a month where women act like men do all the time." But man does it also make me flinch from the sort of constricting pedestal aspect of elevating women as a way of controlling their behavior.
posted by phearlez at 5:54 AM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
I love a good quip and that one tickles the same funny bone for me as "PMS describes the four days a month where women act like men do all the time." But man does it also make me flinch from the sort of constricting pedestal aspect of elevating women as a way of controlling their behavior.
posted by phearlez at 5:54 AM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ugh, my nephew pulled some horseshit last night. I'm currently visiting my sister because we're celebrating her & her daughter's birthday tomorrow and I'm doing the cooking. Since I'm here for a few days, I've also taken over cooking for the household (sister, husband, pregnant niece, nephew--the dogs continue to eat kibble).
So dinner's over and I say "Hey nephew, time for the dishes please."
Five minutes later he's whining about how he needs help because someone has to dry while he's washing because there's not enough room in the dishrack. I had to say to him "Your mother paid for this food, your sister drove me around while we shopped for it, I did all the cooking. This is your contribution."
"Yeah but like I need help doing this, I've done more dishes today and yesterday than I do in a week." (they don't cook a lot)
"Okay, and I've cooked more food in the past two days than I do in a week. What's your point?"
"I can't get these done there's not enough room in the rack if someone else isn't helping dry them."
"... ... ... ... do the fucking dishes."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:33 AM on July 31, 2015 [47 favorites]
So dinner's over and I say "Hey nephew, time for the dishes please."
Five minutes later he's whining about how he needs help because someone has to dry while he's washing because there's not enough room in the dishrack. I had to say to him "Your mother paid for this food, your sister drove me around while we shopped for it, I did all the cooking. This is your contribution."
"Yeah but like I need help doing this, I've done more dishes today and yesterday than I do in a week." (they don't cook a lot)
"Okay, and I've cooked more food in the past two days than I do in a week. What's your point?"
"I can't get these done there's not enough room in the rack if someone else isn't helping dry them."
"... ... ... ... do the fucking dishes."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:33 AM on July 31, 2015 [47 favorites]
Perhaps instead of Olive Garden, tonight we will dine on manflesh.
KathrynT please, I am so curious, what or who did you eat for dinner last night?
posted by jeather at 6:53 AM on July 31, 2015 [17 favorites]
KathrynT please, I am so curious, what or who did you eat for dinner last night?
posted by jeather at 6:53 AM on July 31, 2015 [17 favorites]
"I felt like a dog begging for scraps of his affection."
I wish I could find an online version of Susan Palwick's Gestella to link to. It's a story about a young werewolf who is... tamed, for lack of a better word, by her human husband. It's heartbreaking in the same way that this thread has been heartbreaking.
I read it in Sisters of the Revolution, which is one of the books I will be contributing to the library on Crone Island.
posted by AmandaA at 7:07 AM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
I wish I could find an online version of Susan Palwick's Gestella to link to. It's a story about a young werewolf who is... tamed, for lack of a better word, by her human husband. It's heartbreaking in the same way that this thread has been heartbreaking.
I read it in Sisters of the Revolution, which is one of the books I will be contributing to the library on Crone Island.
posted by AmandaA at 7:07 AM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Okay, and I've cooked more food in the past two days than I do in a week. What's your point?"
"I can't get these done there's not enough room in the rack if someone else isn't helping dry them."
"... ... ... ... do the fucking dishes."
Hmm, my response would have probably been something like:
"Oh, nephew, there's plenty of room if you do it all by yourself. It just takes time. In fact, it probably takes less time then all the time your mother spent earning the equivalent amount of money it took to buy this food, the amount of time it took me and your sister to shop for it, and all the time it took for me to make it and learn how to make it well. In fact, O nephew, in all the time you've spent dicking around and whining, you could have dried two plates and put them away, thus leaving room for two more plates in the dish rack!"
(Note: I was about to write "bitching about" but then realized it was a terribly gendered term, so I changed it.)
posted by TrishaLynn at 7:20 AM on July 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
"I can't get these done there's not enough room in the rack if someone else isn't helping dry them."
"... ... ... ... do the fucking dishes."
Hmm, my response would have probably been something like:
"Oh, nephew, there's plenty of room if you do it all by yourself. It just takes time. In fact, it probably takes less time then all the time your mother spent earning the equivalent amount of money it took to buy this food, the amount of time it took me and your sister to shop for it, and all the time it took for me to make it and learn how to make it well. In fact, O nephew, in all the time you've spent dicking around and whining, you could have dried two plates and put them away, thus leaving room for two more plates in the dish rack!"
(Note: I was about to write "bitching about" but then realized it was a terribly gendered term, so I changed it.)
posted by TrishaLynn at 7:20 AM on July 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
I wish I could find an online version of Susan Palwick's Gestella to link to. It's a story about a young werewolf who is... tamed, for lack of a better word, by her human husband. It's heartbreaking in the same way that this thread has been heartbreaking.
Gestella
Caution: this is a very difficult story to read. Heartbreaking is putting it mildly.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:41 AM on July 31, 2015 [10 favorites]
Gestella
Caution: this is a very difficult story to read. Heartbreaking is putting it mildly.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:41 AM on July 31, 2015 [10 favorites]
TrishaLynn, if he weren't twenty years old I might have felt like holding his hand through that simple logic.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:11 AM on July 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:11 AM on July 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
My sister is actually the worst for this and she's 37. When we go to my Mum's for dinner she'll arrive down usually 15 minutes before it's due to be served so she gets out of prep, eat, then get up and walk into the next room to read a magazine while I engage in a battle with my Mum over letting me clear up (she feels she's being lazy if she doesn't help because Appropriate Woman/Motherhood). It drives me crazy. Even my brother, on the rare occasions he's there, will at least look like he's trying to help, wandering around the kitchen holding a plate and looking vaguely confused, or attempting to stack the dishwasher in that annoying way that men do where they seem to think the object is to arrange things so that it accommodates the least possible number of items (seriously do they pull boys aside in school and teach them how to do that?)
posted by billiebee at 8:23 AM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 8:23 AM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
if he weren't twenty years old I might have felt like holding his hand through that simple logic.
Sure, but whining, doing a crappy job, making life miserable for everyone while doing a crappy job, skipping enough steps that someone will have to redo it later, and a petulant litany of "why do we do it this way/why do I have to do this/why can't we just invent a better washing machine/why do we have to eat off dishes instead of edible plates/why can't someone less special than me take over" is the de facto GET OUT OF DOING CHORES magic spell.
"I could ask him to do this simple chore, but he'll* do it wrong (so I'll have to end up doing it again anyway) and he'll be in a snit all week and brag/complain in public about being henpecked" is the kind of mental calculus that often precedes women doing things themselves.
*or she, as billiebee points out, although the performative helplessness that hinders actual productivity is decidedly masculine in most contexts I know.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:28 AM on July 31, 2015 [40 favorites]
Sure, but whining, doing a crappy job, making life miserable for everyone while doing a crappy job, skipping enough steps that someone will have to redo it later, and a petulant litany of "why do we do it this way/why do I have to do this/why can't we just invent a better washing machine/why do we have to eat off dishes instead of edible plates/why can't someone less special than me take over" is the de facto GET OUT OF DOING CHORES magic spell.
"I could ask him to do this simple chore, but he'll* do it wrong (so I'll have to end up doing it again anyway) and he'll be in a snit all week and brag/complain in public about being henpecked" is the kind of mental calculus that often precedes women doing things themselves.
*or she, as billiebee points out, although the performative helplessness that hinders actual productivity is decidedly masculine in most contexts I know.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:28 AM on July 31, 2015 [40 favorites]
My father always defined feminism as the right for women to be as mediocre as men, and while I don't subscribe to quite that same level of cynicism
I'm reading A Matter of Choices, Fay Ajzentberg-Selove's memoir, and at one part she's discussing sexism in who gets tenure, and how second-rate male scientists get chosen, but women are turned down for not being good enough. She has this great line in there, "I will believe discrimination against women has stopped when I observe that second-rate women get tenure."
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:33 AM on July 31, 2015 [33 favorites]
I'm reading A Matter of Choices, Fay Ajzentberg-Selove's memoir, and at one part she's discussing sexism in who gets tenure, and how second-rate male scientists get chosen, but women are turned down for not being good enough. She has this great line in there, "I will believe discrimination against women has stopped when I observe that second-rate women get tenure."
posted by Gygesringtone at 8:33 AM on July 31, 2015 [33 favorites]
Oh for sure fiendish thingy, and I am not looking forward to the battle later when I remind him that yes in fact he needs to mow the back lawn today, not later, now, and yes this is your contribution to the party tomorrow because you are literally doing fuckall else.
Speaking of, his sister was telling me last night that his plan had been to spend a total of $15 on his mother's birthday present. She noped him out of that right quick--and, naturally, it fell to her to decide what the two of them were getting, do the shopping, etc etc.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:40 AM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
Speaking of, his sister was telling me last night that his plan had been to spend a total of $15 on his mother's birthday present. She noped him out of that right quick--and, naturally, it fell to her to decide what the two of them were getting, do the shopping, etc etc.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:40 AM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sure, but whining, doing a crappy job, making life miserable for everyone while doing a crappy job, skipping enough steps that someone will have to redo it later, and a petulant litany of "why do we do it this way/why do I have to do this/why can't we just invent a better washing machine/why do we have to eat off dishes instead of edible plates/why can't someone less special than me take over" is the de facto GET OUT OF DOING CHORES magic spell.
To be fair, fffm did say that his response to that GET OUT OF CHORES attempt was simply to say, basically "get over yourself and do the damn dishes". Which is indeed a perfectly valid alternative; it's directness as opposed to satiric mockery.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:40 AM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
To be fair, fffm did say that his response to that GET OUT OF CHORES attempt was simply to say, basically "get over yourself and do the damn dishes". Which is indeed a perfectly valid alternative; it's directness as opposed to satiric mockery.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:40 AM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
This topic has so fascinated my brain that I actually had a dream last night that I explained the concept of emotional labor to some people.
posted by delight at 8:46 AM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by delight at 8:46 AM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, I'm not criticizing fffm at ALL. I was just pointing out that responding to "I don't know howwwwww, this is so harrrrrrd" with actual logic and common sense (as suggested above, not by fffm) might be satisfying, but it doesn't counteract the actual point of "I don't know howwwwww, this is so harrrrrrd."
He does know how, and it isn't hard at all, but playing make believe like he's a floppy helpless infomercial denizen (how does anyone cut vegetables? how does anyone boil pasta????? I TRIED TO COOK AN EGG ONCE AND MY HOUSE BURNED DOWN) probably works a lot of the time. It works for a lot of people a lot of the time. And a lot of those people are dudes who have learned that "but I caaaaaaan't" results in other people doing all the work for them.
These same dudes are also somehow shocked, SHOCKED, when their wives divorce them "out of nowhere" a few decades later.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2015 [38 favorites]
He does know how, and it isn't hard at all, but playing make believe like he's a floppy helpless infomercial denizen (how does anyone cut vegetables? how does anyone boil pasta????? I TRIED TO COOK AN EGG ONCE AND MY HOUSE BURNED DOWN) probably works a lot of the time. It works for a lot of people a lot of the time. And a lot of those people are dudes who have learned that "but I caaaaaaan't" results in other people doing all the work for them.
These same dudes are also somehow shocked, SHOCKED, when their wives divorce them "out of nowhere" a few decades later.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2015 [38 favorites]
KathrynT please, I am so curious, what or who did you eat for dinner last night?
Hahahaha oh man. This story.
OK, so there was a part I left out because it didn't seem relevant at the time, which is that I've been sick all week with progressing abdominal pain and cramping. I thought I might have eaten something not-great, but then I got chills and a fever so I figured it must be a virus, but then none of the expected High Volume Toilet Activities happened but even tiny amounts of food and drink were causing pain serious enough that I would compare them to early labor, so I just. . . stopped doing eating and drinking. Pro Tip: This is not a good treatment for abdominal pain, or anyway not for very long.
Anyway, during all of this I had to take my son to Target to buy new sandals, and while I was there I almost blacked out -- vision got dim and I had to sit down real fast -- and I drank about 4 ounces of water and then had pain so bad I couldn't speak, so I got fed up and called the consulting nurse line to see what I could do about this, and the consulting nurse seemed to think that this was a problem that required Urgent Care, which I didn't want to do ($$$, time) but I spoke to a friend of mine who is a MD hospitalist and she said "Look, that sounds like it could be pancreatitis, which can be an emergency, and I know you're leaving for vacation on Saturday, but no surgical situation gets better for waiting, so please just go."
SO my father in law shows up for dinner, and starts in on the salad thing AGAIN, and I said "LOOK. She is eight. She can't eat more than half a cup of vegetables a day. She can't eat any salad dressing. She can't eat any bread. You're asking your granddaughter to eat a half cup of dry salad for dinner? Come on, that's ridiculous." He said "What do you mean, she can't eat more than half a cup of vegetables a day? They recommend you get six to eight servings! That's going to have serious consequences for her health! Have you talked to a doctor or nutritionist about that?" and I was all "yes, that is where we got the recommendations from, she does have an actual real medical condition that was diagnosed at Children's, if you are going to need to talk to her gastroenterologist before we go out to dinner I can try to get you on his schedule but he's pretty busy" except I didn't say that last part out loud. Instead I said "Why don't you go out for pho instead?" and he said "oh yeah, that's a great idea! Let's do that."
Then I said "OK, here's the complicating factor: I'm not going with you. I've been having worsening abdominal symptoms that have left me unable to eat or drink anything without pain serious enough to cause my doctor concern, and we need to go to Urgent Care to rule out a surgical emergency. So when HusbandT gets here, he is going to drop me off there before y'all go out to dinner."
"Ooooooooh," he said. "Wow we are going to be eating so late if we do that. Why don't you come with us and have some soup? I bet soup will make you feel better. Soup is good for your stomach!"
"WATER wasn't good for my stomach, and the consulting nurse told me not to eat or drink anything else in case they have to take me straight to surgery."
"Still, I think you should try having some soup. I just don't want to eat so late, is all."
I was tired, hungry, and in quite a bit of pain, so I said "I tell you what, you guys go out to dinner without me, and then when you come back, HusbandT can take me to urgent care."
He made a face of concern and said "You'll stay home and we'll have BOTH kids?"
Fortunately I was spared having to answer that by a wave of searing pain. But yes. I postponed going to the urgent care so that my husband, children, and father in law could go out to dinner and not eat too late. Apparently they had a great time.
(I did not have pancreatitis. I had a tummy bug exacerbated by pretty serious dehydration; they gave me a liter of fluids IV and 2 more by mouth before I had to pee. I got drugs for the cramping and nausea and now I am OK-not-great. My FIL watched the kids while my husband dropped me off; metafilter's own corb came out in the middle of the night to pick me up and take me home, all praises be to her name.)
posted by KathrynT at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2015 [123 favorites]
Hahahaha oh man. This story.
OK, so there was a part I left out because it didn't seem relevant at the time, which is that I've been sick all week with progressing abdominal pain and cramping. I thought I might have eaten something not-great, but then I got chills and a fever so I figured it must be a virus, but then none of the expected High Volume Toilet Activities happened but even tiny amounts of food and drink were causing pain serious enough that I would compare them to early labor, so I just. . . stopped doing eating and drinking. Pro Tip: This is not a good treatment for abdominal pain, or anyway not for very long.
Anyway, during all of this I had to take my son to Target to buy new sandals, and while I was there I almost blacked out -- vision got dim and I had to sit down real fast -- and I drank about 4 ounces of water and then had pain so bad I couldn't speak, so I got fed up and called the consulting nurse line to see what I could do about this, and the consulting nurse seemed to think that this was a problem that required Urgent Care, which I didn't want to do ($$$, time) but I spoke to a friend of mine who is a MD hospitalist and she said "Look, that sounds like it could be pancreatitis, which can be an emergency, and I know you're leaving for vacation on Saturday, but no surgical situation gets better for waiting, so please just go."
SO my father in law shows up for dinner, and starts in on the salad thing AGAIN, and I said "LOOK. She is eight. She can't eat more than half a cup of vegetables a day. She can't eat any salad dressing. She can't eat any bread. You're asking your granddaughter to eat a half cup of dry salad for dinner? Come on, that's ridiculous." He said "What do you mean, she can't eat more than half a cup of vegetables a day? They recommend you get six to eight servings! That's going to have serious consequences for her health! Have you talked to a doctor or nutritionist about that?" and I was all "yes, that is where we got the recommendations from, she does have an actual real medical condition that was diagnosed at Children's, if you are going to need to talk to her gastroenterologist before we go out to dinner I can try to get you on his schedule but he's pretty busy" except I didn't say that last part out loud. Instead I said "Why don't you go out for pho instead?" and he said "oh yeah, that's a great idea! Let's do that."
Then I said "OK, here's the complicating factor: I'm not going with you. I've been having worsening abdominal symptoms that have left me unable to eat or drink anything without pain serious enough to cause my doctor concern, and we need to go to Urgent Care to rule out a surgical emergency. So when HusbandT gets here, he is going to drop me off there before y'all go out to dinner."
"Ooooooooh," he said. "Wow we are going to be eating so late if we do that. Why don't you come with us and have some soup? I bet soup will make you feel better. Soup is good for your stomach!"
"WATER wasn't good for my stomach, and the consulting nurse told me not to eat or drink anything else in case they have to take me straight to surgery."
"Still, I think you should try having some soup. I just don't want to eat so late, is all."
I was tired, hungry, and in quite a bit of pain, so I said "I tell you what, you guys go out to dinner without me, and then when you come back, HusbandT can take me to urgent care."
He made a face of concern and said "You'll stay home and we'll have BOTH kids?"
Fortunately I was spared having to answer that by a wave of searing pain. But yes. I postponed going to the urgent care so that my husband, children, and father in law could go out to dinner and not eat too late. Apparently they had a great time.
(I did not have pancreatitis. I had a tummy bug exacerbated by pretty serious dehydration; they gave me a liter of fluids IV and 2 more by mouth before I had to pee. I got drugs for the cramping and nausea and now I am OK-not-great. My FIL watched the kids while my husband dropped me off; metafilter's own corb came out in the middle of the night to pick me up and take me home, all praises be to her name.)
posted by KathrynT at 8:50 AM on July 31, 2015 [123 favorites]
I wasn't criticizing fffm either, but perhaps giving vent to the way I attempt to respond to this kind of "Get Out of Chores" free argument which sometimes happen in my household.
In our house, since I do most of the cooking, our deal is that he deals with the dishes. He also continues to work from home after dinner and comes to bed way later than I do. And without fail, if he tries to "Honey, I have a lot of work to do tonight" me out of doing his fair share—a condition which we agreed to when we first moved in together four years ago—I'll both be blunt and satirically get him to see that I don't care when it gets done, just that it gets done before he comes to bed.
And there's also no way that he can say that he's not good at cooking because he knows how to make a bourbon pecan pie with whipped topping, all from scratch. And if he wants me to make a very complicated meal like this one, I start off by saying, "Look at all those steps and all those ingredients. Do you realize how long that's really going to take?" and if he really wants it, he'll find a way to do it himself.
posted by TrishaLynn at 9:00 AM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
In our house, since I do most of the cooking, our deal is that he deals with the dishes. He also continues to work from home after dinner and comes to bed way later than I do. And without fail, if he tries to "Honey, I have a lot of work to do tonight" me out of doing his fair share—a condition which we agreed to when we first moved in together four years ago—I'll both be blunt and satirically get him to see that I don't care when it gets done, just that it gets done before he comes to bed.
And there's also no way that he can say that he's not good at cooking because he knows how to make a bourbon pecan pie with whipped topping, all from scratch. And if he wants me to make a very complicated meal like this one, I start off by saying, "Look at all those steps and all those ingredients. Do you realize how long that's really going to take?" and if he really wants it, he'll find a way to do it himself.
posted by TrishaLynn at 9:00 AM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Still, I think you should try having some soup. I just don't want to eat so late, is all."
I was tired, hungry, and in quite a bit of pain, so I said "I tell you what, you guys go out to dinner without me, and then when you come back, HusbandT can take me to urgent care."
He made a face of concern and said "You'll stay home and we'll have BOTH kids?"
Oh my God I am gibbering with rage for you. GIBBERING.
posted by billiebee at 9:05 AM on July 31, 2015 [43 favorites]
I was tired, hungry, and in quite a bit of pain, so I said "I tell you what, you guys go out to dinner without me, and then when you come back, HusbandT can take me to urgent care."
He made a face of concern and said "You'll stay home and we'll have BOTH kids?"
Oh my God I am gibbering with rage for you. GIBBERING.
posted by billiebee at 9:05 AM on July 31, 2015 [43 favorites]
KathrynT, that is some serious selfishness on display on their part and I would love for you to tell them so. Shocking that their inconvenience trumps a HOSPITAL trip.
posted by agregoli at 9:05 AM on July 31, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 9:05 AM on July 31, 2015 [31 favorites]
KathrynT, where is the line forming for those of us who want to give your FIL what-for?
corb: thank you!
posted by rtha at 9:11 AM on July 31, 2015 [37 favorites]
corb: thank you!
posted by rtha at 9:11 AM on July 31, 2015 [37 favorites]
kathrynT, go get your husband for me, will you? Just bring him here. I'll wait.
* examines nails *
Okay, you're back? Okay, good. KathrynT, go sit down and put your feet up a minute. Tell the husband to wait here.
* examines nails again for a second *
She's gone? Okay.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN, you need to MAN UP and GROW A PAIR and SLAP YOUR DADDY UPSIDE THE HEAD.
What the HELL is wrong with you that you can't see what the man is doing to your damn WIFE and DAUGHTER? Why are you letting him PULL THAT SHIT? And why are YOU pulling shit to MAKE IT WORSE?
Your father is doing things that affect YOUR DAUGHTER'S HEALTH, and you and your father BOTH did something that affected YOUR WIFE'S HEALTH. Their ACTUAL WELL-BEING was at stake DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF SOMETHING YOU GUYS DID. There are actual LAWS where you could get ARRESTED AND SHIT because of that. What in the FUCK little man-baby would you have to be to just be sitting back in the buckwheat and letting your father pull that crap?
You need to suck it up and stop being the dickless wonder that a whole team of strangers now thinks you are, and you need to do it NOW.
* exhales *
'kay, I'm done. Tell kathrynT to take the rest of the day off.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:13 AM on July 31, 2015 [60 favorites]
* examines nails *
Okay, you're back? Okay, good. KathrynT, go sit down and put your feet up a minute. Tell the husband to wait here.
* examines nails again for a second *
She's gone? Okay.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN, you need to MAN UP and GROW A PAIR and SLAP YOUR DADDY UPSIDE THE HEAD.
What the HELL is wrong with you that you can't see what the man is doing to your damn WIFE and DAUGHTER? Why are you letting him PULL THAT SHIT? And why are YOU pulling shit to MAKE IT WORSE?
Your father is doing things that affect YOUR DAUGHTER'S HEALTH, and you and your father BOTH did something that affected YOUR WIFE'S HEALTH. Their ACTUAL WELL-BEING was at stake DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF SOMETHING YOU GUYS DID. There are actual LAWS where you could get ARRESTED AND SHIT because of that. What in the FUCK little man-baby would you have to be to just be sitting back in the buckwheat and letting your father pull that crap?
You need to suck it up and stop being the dickless wonder that a whole team of strangers now thinks you are, and you need to do it NOW.
* exhales *
'kay, I'm done. Tell kathrynT to take the rest of the day off.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:13 AM on July 31, 2015 [60 favorites]
KathrynT glad you are feeling better and holy crap is that a messed up story. (and good on you Corb for helping out!)
I don't have a lot to add to this thread - been reading it for days and days now and am grateful to all who have shared their experiences. The older I get the less willing I am to play nice for anyone who wants to skip out on their share of EL - am well along the road to Cronedom clearly. Certainly easier as a late middle aged woman to be out of fucks to give though than it was when I was younger and less secure.
posted by leslies at 9:22 AM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
I don't have a lot to add to this thread - been reading it for days and days now and am grateful to all who have shared their experiences. The older I get the less willing I am to play nice for anyone who wants to skip out on their share of EL - am well along the road to Cronedom clearly. Certainly easier as a late middle aged woman to be out of fucks to give though than it was when I was younger and less secure.
posted by leslies at 9:22 AM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
"Still, I think you should try having some soup. I just don't want to eat so late, is all."
*grits teeth*
He made a face of concern and said "You'll stay home and we'll have BOTH kids?"
*teeth break*
posted by lwb at 9:23 AM on July 31, 2015 [28 favorites]
*grits teeth*
He made a face of concern and said "You'll stay home and we'll have BOTH kids?"
*teeth break*
posted by lwb at 9:23 AM on July 31, 2015 [28 favorites]
BOTH KIDS that is a monstrosity too far for anyone who does not have MAGICAL LADY CHILD WRANGLING ABILITIES.
But in seriousness, that's just the expectation, right? That women take the edges off everything, including or especially including cranky sad children, so that "real people" don't have to.
posted by corb at 9:30 AM on July 31, 2015 [38 favorites]
But in seriousness, that's just the expectation, right? That women take the edges off everything, including or especially including cranky sad children, so that "real people" don't have to.
posted by corb at 9:30 AM on July 31, 2015 [38 favorites]
Holy cow, kathrynt, I'm glad you're okay!
Thank you, corb.
Since becoming a parent, I've been astonished at how many people think that parenting twins or even just watching both of my (well-manned, not wild) kids for a few hours at a time is overwhelming. But I bet every single damned one of them would take the kids in a heartbeat without question if they heard, "I may have to have emergency surgery" from my wife or me. FFS.
posted by zarq at 9:45 AM on July 31, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thank you, corb.
Since becoming a parent, I've been astonished at how many people think that parenting twins or even just watching both of my (well-manned, not wild) kids for a few hours at a time is overwhelming. But I bet every single damned one of them would take the kids in a heartbeat without question if they heard, "I may have to have emergency surgery" from my wife or me. FFS.
posted by zarq at 9:45 AM on July 31, 2015 [13 favorites]
corb you are Good People. I am in my imaginary hammock on Crone Island raising a G&T to you, and Kathryn T's health, and hell, all of y'all in this thread. I've felt like MetaFilter was a genuine community ever since I joined, but the love and work that has gone into this thread has deepened that in a way that I didn't know was possible considering I'm unlikely to ever meet any of you (damn you, geography). You're all Good People and I'm so happy to be here and honoured at what people have felt safe enough to share. Sláinte!
posted by billiebee at 9:49 AM on July 31, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 9:49 AM on July 31, 2015 [18 favorites]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN, you need to MAN UP and GROW A PAIR and SLAP YOUR DADDY UPSIDE THE HEAD.
In my husband's defense, he wasn't here during the fucked up part of this conversation. Over the twenty years we've been together, he's done quite a lot to manage my relationship with his father -- including telling me point blank "He is a deeply frustrating man, but I am willing to put up with a certain amount of it in order to preserve a relationship with him. You are under no obligations to do to the same. You figure out what you are willing to deal with, and I'll make sure it doesn't go beyond that." He's been more reactive than proactive -- and I may have a chat with him about changing that after the epiphanies I've gained from this thread -- but he definitely maintains the expectation that his father is a doofus and that his wife comes first.
The reactive / proactive thing is actually at the root of most of our conflicts as a couple. He's very proactive with domestic labor, while I am reactive; I am very proactive with emotional labor, while he is reactive. that's the most valuable insight I've had into our relationship in a decade.
posted by KathrynT at 10:11 AM on July 31, 2015 [50 favorites]
In my husband's defense, he wasn't here during the fucked up part of this conversation. Over the twenty years we've been together, he's done quite a lot to manage my relationship with his father -- including telling me point blank "He is a deeply frustrating man, but I am willing to put up with a certain amount of it in order to preserve a relationship with him. You are under no obligations to do to the same. You figure out what you are willing to deal with, and I'll make sure it doesn't go beyond that." He's been more reactive than proactive -- and I may have a chat with him about changing that after the epiphanies I've gained from this thread -- but he definitely maintains the expectation that his father is a doofus and that his wife comes first.
The reactive / proactive thing is actually at the root of most of our conflicts as a couple. He's very proactive with domestic labor, while I am reactive; I am very proactive with emotional labor, while he is reactive. that's the most valuable insight I've had into our relationship in a decade.
posted by KathrynT at 10:11 AM on July 31, 2015 [50 favorites]
Also I have a stellar relationship with my mother-in-law, who divorced my father-in-law 42 years ago for this very reason. (She referred to it as "being a cognitive Mr. Magoo.") So she will extremely joyfully listen to me rant and vent about him, and offer sympathy and practical tips in equal measure.
posted by KathrynT at 10:13 AM on July 31, 2015 [47 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 10:13 AM on July 31, 2015 [47 favorites]
In my husband's defense, he wasn't here during the fucked up part of this conversation. [...] he definitely maintains the expectation that his father is a doofus and that his wife comes first.
*grumble* Okay, but I would still feel better if I knew that his reaction when you told him what happened was to say "what the actual FUCK?" followed by turning on his heel, walking out to the car, and driving to his father's place to sucker-punch the jerk.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:19 AM on July 31, 2015 [7 favorites]
*grumble* Okay, but I would still feel better if I knew that his reaction when you told him what happened was to say "what the actual FUCK?" followed by turning on his heel, walking out to the car, and driving to his father's place to sucker-punch the jerk.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:19 AM on July 31, 2015 [7 favorites]
yeah holy crap i'm just totally gobsmacked by the extreme cognitive Mr. Magoo-ness of this guy. Like, need to go do some push-ups in a conference room so I don't Hulk out. omfg.
posted by palomar at 10:28 AM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by palomar at 10:28 AM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think I can join in the discussion about KTs FIL because the mods asked us yesterday to not derail into talking about killing people. Sooooo....
nadawi said: it's one reason why i yell so loudly that housewives and sex workers should be each others biggest supporters
When I got divorced, I literally concluded that I would rather be a sex worker(and have many customers) than do the homemaker schtick again (and wind up prisoner of a single customer.) The hell of it is I really liked being a wife and mom and would have been pretty content with that role if my ex had done three things:
1) Meet my emotional needs better. My sons think their dad is a tard that he could not get this right. I am pretty easy to appease with a few head pats.
2) Not run up so much debt because of his need to piss money away on his personal crap. Every time I sat down with a calculator, no matter how many years we had been married, we owed about $100 for every month we had been married. Pay raises did nothing to get the debts under control. More pay just meant we could afford to service more debt! (Urge to kill.)
3) Had even a smidgeon of respect for me personally and even a smidgeon of appreciation for the fact that I was devotedly putting him and our kids first out of love.
That last requires a war story. A couple of sentences won't cut it.
When online classes became a thing and my kids were old enough to be a bit less of a burden, I returned to college. At the time, I did so solely to wrap up an AA in order to preserve my two years of college so that if I ever got back to school, I would not have to start a four year degree from scratch. If you do not have some kind of degree, classes taken too many years ago will not be accepted as transfer credits.
To give some context, the reason I had two years of college and no degree is because I gave up a national scholarship in large part to stay with my boyfriend whom I later married. And we got married at age 19. We were secretly married and some of the reasons for that are rooted in shitty family history that I won't hang on him. But he always viewed me as his rescuee. He framed himself as the hero. The reality is that if he had not married me, he would have been as stuck as I was. He wanted to go into the army and his mother was against it. So, while secretly married and still each of us living in our respective parental homes, in order to appease his mother, he let the Air Force dick him around for an entire year before he went and applied to the army and they put him in promptly.
During this year, I had to drop out of college to keep the marriage secret. I was not going to lie on the financial aid application and I was not going to admit to my parents that I was married in order to fill it out correctly. So the only viable option was to drop out.
So I had given up a scholarship and dropped out of college over this man and I did not even expect him to be supportive of me going to college. We had been married long enough for me to be aware that if I wanted the kids to eat, I needed to do it myself. That if I left them in his care, I needed to feed them before I left or they would go hungry and so on. He just didn't do that stuff. The kids were old enough and the fact that I could not take classes online meant I did not need him to watch the kids or whatever. I had accepted that he was a good provider and it was an old fashioned marriage and there were things he just was not good at and it was okay because he was really good at his job and that was really valuable. For example, when there was a RIF (reduction in forces), we did not live in fear of him being shoved out because he walked on water at work. And he had medical benefits and other benefits that most civilian jobs lack and I understood the value of all that and genuinely appreciated it. So I honest to god did not expect him to do anything like babysit his own kids or whatever so I could go to class. I expected to attend class online and I studied after the kids went to bed and I fit my class work around my women's work and my family responsibilities came first and I did not expect it to be any other way.
I did feel that because I had given up a scholarship and dropped out of school over him, he owed me the opportunity to attend school, but beyond paying the tuition, I expected nothing from him. So I start taking classes under circumstances where this should essentially not impact his life at all and I have zero expectation that he will modify his schedule or take up any slack so I can do school. And a funny thing happens. All of a sudden, he starts coming home from work in the evening and immediately telling me his PT uniform needs to be washed. On days when he did not remember it at first, because this was not a habit, he did not mention it at all and he wore it to work dirty the next morning.
The reason this is significant is because before that, he would mention to me as he wandered off to bed at midnight that his PT outfit needed washing. Which meant that at least once or twice a week, I would stay up until 2 am to wash and dry his PT outfit so it was available before he got up at like 5am the next morning. And on top of that he constantly gave me shit about my lack of a good sleep schedule and routinely going to bed at 2am, which was largely his fault because you don't have to stay up until 2am doing laundry too often before that is your new normal bedtime and you can't get to sleep earlier than that.
So when he began telling me at about 6pm that he needed his PT outfit washed, that told me that it wasn't that he was just forgetful or something and just not good at this type thing. It told me that he had been fucking up my sleep schedule and then dissing me for my bad sleep schedule because he had zero respect for me. He treated me like a slave because he had no respect for me as a homemaker. I was not a human being in his eyes. And somehow, taking a couple of classes online suddenly made me a person in his eyes and without even being asked he could suddenly stop just shitting all over me on a routine basis.
And that was yet another nail in the coffin of our marriage. That revelation really made me hate the man. And I think it was after that I could no longer have orgasms over him. I could only get there due to an emotional affair and fantasizing about a man I was friends with whom I had permission to fantasize about. That was so cold, it left me cold in bed and, after that, sex with him was just a mechanical act and, unbeknownst to him, the emotional piece I needed to reach orgasm was supplied by someone else.
posted by Michele in California at 10:49 AM on July 31, 2015 [26 favorites]
nadawi said: it's one reason why i yell so loudly that housewives and sex workers should be each others biggest supporters
When I got divorced, I literally concluded that I would rather be a sex worker(and have many customers) than do the homemaker schtick again (and wind up prisoner of a single customer.) The hell of it is I really liked being a wife and mom and would have been pretty content with that role if my ex had done three things:
1) Meet my emotional needs better. My sons think their dad is a tard that he could not get this right. I am pretty easy to appease with a few head pats.
2) Not run up so much debt because of his need to piss money away on his personal crap. Every time I sat down with a calculator, no matter how many years we had been married, we owed about $100 for every month we had been married. Pay raises did nothing to get the debts under control. More pay just meant we could afford to service more debt! (Urge to kill.)
3) Had even a smidgeon of respect for me personally and even a smidgeon of appreciation for the fact that I was devotedly putting him and our kids first out of love.
That last requires a war story. A couple of sentences won't cut it.
When online classes became a thing and my kids were old enough to be a bit less of a burden, I returned to college. At the time, I did so solely to wrap up an AA in order to preserve my two years of college so that if I ever got back to school, I would not have to start a four year degree from scratch. If you do not have some kind of degree, classes taken too many years ago will not be accepted as transfer credits.
To give some context, the reason I had two years of college and no degree is because I gave up a national scholarship in large part to stay with my boyfriend whom I later married. And we got married at age 19. We were secretly married and some of the reasons for that are rooted in shitty family history that I won't hang on him. But he always viewed me as his rescuee. He framed himself as the hero. The reality is that if he had not married me, he would have been as stuck as I was. He wanted to go into the army and his mother was against it. So, while secretly married and still each of us living in our respective parental homes, in order to appease his mother, he let the Air Force dick him around for an entire year before he went and applied to the army and they put him in promptly.
During this year, I had to drop out of college to keep the marriage secret. I was not going to lie on the financial aid application and I was not going to admit to my parents that I was married in order to fill it out correctly. So the only viable option was to drop out.
So I had given up a scholarship and dropped out of college over this man and I did not even expect him to be supportive of me going to college. We had been married long enough for me to be aware that if I wanted the kids to eat, I needed to do it myself. That if I left them in his care, I needed to feed them before I left or they would go hungry and so on. He just didn't do that stuff. The kids were old enough and the fact that I could not take classes online meant I did not need him to watch the kids or whatever. I had accepted that he was a good provider and it was an old fashioned marriage and there were things he just was not good at and it was okay because he was really good at his job and that was really valuable. For example, when there was a RIF (reduction in forces), we did not live in fear of him being shoved out because he walked on water at work. And he had medical benefits and other benefits that most civilian jobs lack and I understood the value of all that and genuinely appreciated it. So I honest to god did not expect him to do anything like babysit his own kids or whatever so I could go to class. I expected to attend class online and I studied after the kids went to bed and I fit my class work around my women's work and my family responsibilities came first and I did not expect it to be any other way.
I did feel that because I had given up a scholarship and dropped out of school over him, he owed me the opportunity to attend school, but beyond paying the tuition, I expected nothing from him. So I start taking classes under circumstances where this should essentially not impact his life at all and I have zero expectation that he will modify his schedule or take up any slack so I can do school. And a funny thing happens. All of a sudden, he starts coming home from work in the evening and immediately telling me his PT uniform needs to be washed. On days when he did not remember it at first, because this was not a habit, he did not mention it at all and he wore it to work dirty the next morning.
The reason this is significant is because before that, he would mention to me as he wandered off to bed at midnight that his PT outfit needed washing. Which meant that at least once or twice a week, I would stay up until 2 am to wash and dry his PT outfit so it was available before he got up at like 5am the next morning. And on top of that he constantly gave me shit about my lack of a good sleep schedule and routinely going to bed at 2am, which was largely his fault because you don't have to stay up until 2am doing laundry too often before that is your new normal bedtime and you can't get to sleep earlier than that.
So when he began telling me at about 6pm that he needed his PT outfit washed, that told me that it wasn't that he was just forgetful or something and just not good at this type thing. It told me that he had been fucking up my sleep schedule and then dissing me for my bad sleep schedule because he had zero respect for me. He treated me like a slave because he had no respect for me as a homemaker. I was not a human being in his eyes. And somehow, taking a couple of classes online suddenly made me a person in his eyes and without even being asked he could suddenly stop just shitting all over me on a routine basis.
And that was yet another nail in the coffin of our marriage. That revelation really made me hate the man. And I think it was after that I could no longer have orgasms over him. I could only get there due to an emotional affair and fantasizing about a man I was friends with whom I had permission to fantasize about. That was so cold, it left me cold in bed and, after that, sex with him was just a mechanical act and, unbeknownst to him, the emotional piece I needed to reach orgasm was supplied by someone else.
posted by Michele in California at 10:49 AM on July 31, 2015 [26 favorites]
What made it worse was he was GM.
I am now wanting to go all She-Hulk on him along with KathrynT's FiL. For you non-gamers out there, what this asshole was doing was using a position of social power in the group (which you have to have to be GM) and the power to construct the world to harass a player. It's like the team captain pulling you into the locker room and trying to mack on you. And basically the thing is that when it's a group full of guys and you're the only woman (or one of two in a big group), it's almost always going to be "why are you whining and disrupting the group?" because the emotional labor of dealing with sexual harassment to keep the group intact is just part of being the woman in the group. And $DEITY help you if you're the GM's girlfriend/wife, because it's almost explicitly your job to keep feathers smooth when they get ruffled. Emotional labor central.
I didn't leave my ex because his gaming buddies, some of whom were also my friends, were collectively either misogynist dicks or enablers, but it was part of a trend for sure. When did they finally kick the worst offender, who was also a general sadist? When he finally went after the wrong man with his asshole behavior, of course. Geek fallacies, ugh.
I'm so glad you have a new group and I hope it's awesome for you. And I hope once you've been in it for a few sessions, your subconscious relaxes. This is maddening behavior and how come we're still doing the same shit 30 years after I started gaming and dealing with it? GRRRR.
posted by immlass at 10:54 AM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
I am now wanting to go all She-Hulk on him along with KathrynT's FiL. For you non-gamers out there, what this asshole was doing was using a position of social power in the group (which you have to have to be GM) and the power to construct the world to harass a player. It's like the team captain pulling you into the locker room and trying to mack on you. And basically the thing is that when it's a group full of guys and you're the only woman (or one of two in a big group), it's almost always going to be "why are you whining and disrupting the group?" because the emotional labor of dealing with sexual harassment to keep the group intact is just part of being the woman in the group. And $DEITY help you if you're the GM's girlfriend/wife, because it's almost explicitly your job to keep feathers smooth when they get ruffled. Emotional labor central.
I didn't leave my ex because his gaming buddies, some of whom were also my friends, were collectively either misogynist dicks or enablers, but it was part of a trend for sure. When did they finally kick the worst offender, who was also a general sadist? When he finally went after the wrong man with his asshole behavior, of course. Geek fallacies, ugh.
I'm so glad you have a new group and I hope it's awesome for you. And I hope once you've been in it for a few sessions, your subconscious relaxes. This is maddening behavior and how come we're still doing the same shit 30 years after I started gaming and dealing with it? GRRRR.
posted by immlass at 10:54 AM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
I have special recent stories from work, but this is a quick one. When I was seventeen, a male "friend" crept into the bedroom where I was sleeping (alone) after a party, and assaulted me. Not rape or anything, because that would be, like, wrong and he'd NEVER do anything like THAT. I don't talk about it with people we both know, because every conversation I have ever had with people who knew both of us revolved around how I needed to be understanding and empathetic about his behavior, because:
(a) He only did it because he was sensitive and shy, and feared being rejected if he just, you know, asked me to a movie or something.
(b) Did I really want to make him feel badly about something as small as this? It was just a socially awkward mistake, and we're all human--we all make mistakes. He felt terrible about the whole thing already.**
*Somehow I managed to lose touch with them. Tragic, I know.
**This is not a mistake I've ever made or been tempted to make, personally. Moreover, if he felt so terrible....well, it's been 18 years. Guess how many apologies I've received in that time about a rather terrible way to wake up.
posted by Naamah at 11:03 AM on July 31, 2015 [19 favorites]
(a) He only did it because he was sensitive and shy, and feared being rejected if he just, you know, asked me to a movie or something.
(b) Did I really want to make him feel badly about something as small as this? It was just a socially awkward mistake, and we're all human--we all make mistakes. He felt terrible about the whole thing already.**
*Somehow I managed to lose touch with them. Tragic, I know.
**This is not a mistake I've ever made or been tempted to make, personally. Moreover, if he felt so terrible....well, it's been 18 years. Guess how many apologies I've received in that time about a rather terrible way to wake up.
posted by Naamah at 11:03 AM on July 31, 2015 [19 favorites]
He does know how, and it isn't hard at all, but playing make believe like he's a floppy helpless infomercial denizen (how does anyone cut vegetables? how does anyone boil pasta????? I TRIED TO COOK AN EGG ONCE AND MY HOUSE BURNED DOWN) probably works a lot of the time. It works for a lot of people a lot of the time.
ALL THE TIME HE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME
The difference is neither his stepfather nor I let him get away with it. He's still sulking about last night.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:10 AM on July 31, 2015 [25 favorites]
ALL THE TIME HE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME
The difference is neither his stepfather nor I let him get away with it. He's still sulking about last night.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:10 AM on July 31, 2015 [25 favorites]
First off, corb, thank you for pulling Crone Cab duty last night.
Second, I have learned today that it is possible to screw up ordering pizza for a family of four, and that my husband does not understand the basic principle of ordering more pizza than you think you need, because leftover pizza is awesome and not-enough is everyone's least favorite kind of pizza. I politely pointed out that people eat more slices of thin crust pizza than of thicker crust and refused to make him feel better about it. And felt guilty for not making him feel better about it. Sigh.
posted by bardophile at 11:27 AM on July 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
Second, I have learned today that it is possible to screw up ordering pizza for a family of four, and that my husband does not understand the basic principle of ordering more pizza than you think you need, because leftover pizza is awesome and not-enough is everyone's least favorite kind of pizza. I politely pointed out that people eat more slices of thin crust pizza than of thicker crust and refused to make him feel better about it. And felt guilty for not making him feel better about it. Sigh.
posted by bardophile at 11:27 AM on July 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
So, I usually don't do the kid story thing, but I think this might make everyone feel a little better about the future. I just had this exchange with my 4 year old daughter:
Me: Reads a book where the Prince lets Snow White think he's in danger so he can arrange a surprise picnic.
Daughter: He lied to Snow-White, that's mean. She should tell him that it's mean to lie.
Me: Yes she should, you're awesome.
I gave her a hug from me and a high-five from the internet.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:32 AM on July 31, 2015 [37 favorites]
Me: Reads a book where the Prince lets Snow White think he's in danger so he can arrange a surprise picnic.
Daughter: He lied to Snow-White, that's mean. She should tell him that it's mean to lie.
Me: Yes she should, you're awesome.
I gave her a hug from me and a high-five from the internet.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:32 AM on July 31, 2015 [37 favorites]
my husband does not understand the basic principle of ordering more pizza than you think you need, because leftover pizza is awesome and not-enough is everyone's least favorite kind of pizza.
I seriously lost my shit one night over this, because it summarizes...everything.
- Literally not caring about where the next meal is coming from because someone else is surely going to put you in a fresh diaper and stick a bottle in your mouth for you.
- Assuming a short-order cook is waiting anxiously to cook every goddamn meal fresh for you.
- Giving the vaguest passing fuck that anybody but you gets enough to eat.
- Only effort expended: to be as incompetent as humanly possible.
It is breathtaking in its lack of compassion or empathy or responsibility. It's like an alien heard the phrase "order a pizza" and is making an attempt to fit in among humans.
I have a lot of pizza rage.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:07 PM on July 31, 2015 [49 favorites]
I seriously lost my shit one night over this, because it summarizes...everything.
- Literally not caring about where the next meal is coming from because someone else is surely going to put you in a fresh diaper and stick a bottle in your mouth for you.
- Assuming a short-order cook is waiting anxiously to cook every goddamn meal fresh for you.
- Giving the vaguest passing fuck that anybody but you gets enough to eat.
- Only effort expended: to be as incompetent as humanly possible.
It is breathtaking in its lack of compassion or empathy or responsibility. It's like an alien heard the phrase "order a pizza" and is making an attempt to fit in among humans.
I have a lot of pizza rage.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:07 PM on July 31, 2015 [49 favorites]
But I bet every single damned one of them would take the kids in a heartbeat without question if they heard, "I may have to have emergency surgery" from my wife or me. FFS.
Yeah that's something I would have thought before this thread too.
posted by phearlez at 1:11 PM on July 31, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah that's something I would have thought before this thread too.
posted by phearlez at 1:11 PM on July 31, 2015 [9 favorites]
Daughter: He lied to Snow-White, that's mean. She should tell him that it's mean to lie.
Me: Yes she should, you're awesome.
I have had to "yeah, NOPE" several kids books and I'm sure I will do many more. It's amazing the quantity of them that are awful is so many ways. But your story reminded me of a review/story Pat Rothfuss put up about a book he had to modify for his kid to replace the abuse and gas lighting in it.
posted by phearlez at 1:20 PM on July 31, 2015 [24 favorites]
Me: Yes she should, you're awesome.
I have had to "yeah, NOPE" several kids books and I'm sure I will do many more. It's amazing the quantity of them that are awful is so many ways. But your story reminded me of a review/story Pat Rothfuss put up about a book he had to modify for his kid to replace the abuse and gas lighting in it.
posted by phearlez at 1:20 PM on July 31, 2015 [24 favorites]
Giving the vaguest passing fuck that anybody but you gets enough to eat.
Fortunately, mrbardophile is not lacking in the milk of human kindness, was duly horrified at the obvious insufficiency, served up slices to everyone before taking any for himself, and only took one slice. It's the stunning lack of forethought that's frustrating.
posted by bardophile at 1:24 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Fortunately, mrbardophile is not lacking in the milk of human kindness, was duly horrified at the obvious insufficiency, served up slices to everyone before taking any for himself, and only took one slice. It's the stunning lack of forethought that's frustrating.
posted by bardophile at 1:24 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
AUGH HE DID THE THING
He weaseled out of mowing the lawn, didn't weasel out of going out to pick up any stray dog poops that might be out of there. Sure enough when my BIL went out to mow the lawn, he came back in and said "How about you go actually finish your job?"
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:31 PM on July 31, 2015 [17 favorites]
He weaseled out of mowing the lawn, didn't weasel out of going out to pick up any stray dog poops that might be out of there. Sure enough when my BIL went out to mow the lawn, he came back in and said "How about you go actually finish your job?"
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:31 PM on July 31, 2015 [17 favorites]
fffm, augh
posted by bardophile at 1:35 PM on July 31, 2015
posted by bardophile at 1:35 PM on July 31, 2015
phearlez, ugh. I am now imagining that the tortoises in the original story combine to form a long lance, made of those discarded tortoises all the way down (protected from harm, of course), then speed towards him saying "WHERE'S YOUR MAGIC SPELL NOW, FUCKER?"
posted by halifix at 2:31 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by halifix at 2:31 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
Typos in my last comment are making me crazy:
National scholarship = national merit scholarship.
Could not take online classes = could NOW take online classes.
/pedant
posted by Michele in California at 4:13 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
National scholarship = national merit scholarship.
Could not take online classes = could NOW take online classes.
/pedant
posted by Michele in California at 4:13 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have a lot of pizza rage.
Ever since an incident some years back, I get first crack at the pizza, no matter who orders it.
I was eyeballs deep in work, was coming up on the end of a 17 hour day. At hour 15, I ordered pizza. When it arrived at hour 16, I said "Please save me two pieces." At hour 17, I finished my work and went to retrieve the pizza I had asked to be set aside for me.
There was none. Zero pieces. Not even a CRUMB. I stomped up to the Big Boy up the street for a hot meal that I did not have to cook, then had ice cream. I did not answer the frantic texts or calls from the husband asking where I went. I went to the bar next door to the Big Boy and had a couple of cocktails. I continued to ignore my phone.
When I returned home, he was fit to be tied. Why didn't I answer my phone? "Why didn't you save me any fucking pizza? I worked 17 hours today, and NO ONE asked me if I needed anything. I even ordered the pizza, and you didn't bother to save any, even though I asked!"
It had literally not occurred to him to take care of dinner in any way. It had literally never crossed his mind that during a day where barely had time to pee, I would also not have time to eat. He whined about "not knowing" that I hadn't eaten. He was bored, so he just ate the "leftover" pizza. It had not occurred to him to TALK TO ME to make sure I had food.
He has become MUCH better about this, but I STILL take my pizza first, even if it will be hours before I'll be able to eat it.
posted by MissySedai at 4:34 PM on July 31, 2015 [69 favorites]
Ever since an incident some years back, I get first crack at the pizza, no matter who orders it.
I was eyeballs deep in work, was coming up on the end of a 17 hour day. At hour 15, I ordered pizza. When it arrived at hour 16, I said "Please save me two pieces." At hour 17, I finished my work and went to retrieve the pizza I had asked to be set aside for me.
There was none. Zero pieces. Not even a CRUMB. I stomped up to the Big Boy up the street for a hot meal that I did not have to cook, then had ice cream. I did not answer the frantic texts or calls from the husband asking where I went. I went to the bar next door to the Big Boy and had a couple of cocktails. I continued to ignore my phone.
When I returned home, he was fit to be tied. Why didn't I answer my phone? "Why didn't you save me any fucking pizza? I worked 17 hours today, and NO ONE asked me if I needed anything. I even ordered the pizza, and you didn't bother to save any, even though I asked!"
It had literally not occurred to him to take care of dinner in any way. It had literally never crossed his mind that during a day where barely had time to pee, I would also not have time to eat. He whined about "not knowing" that I hadn't eaten. He was bored, so he just ate the "leftover" pizza. It had not occurred to him to TALK TO ME to make sure I had food.
He has become MUCH better about this, but I STILL take my pizza first, even if it will be hours before I'll be able to eat it.
posted by MissySedai at 4:34 PM on July 31, 2015 [69 favorites]
My pizza rage concerns my husband's insistence that he only eat pepperoni pizza with olives: one half the pie with black and the other with green. All my married life that is the only pizza we can order. When we go out for pizza with other people, I don't even suggest any other kind; I know we must have one of the usual as "our " suggestion/stated preference. If someone else takes a slice of "our" pizza, I'm delighted that I can reciprocate by having some of whatever else has been ordered. It could be anything; I'm just happy to have something different.
Yes, I've brought it up. Yes, I've suggested putting the green and black olives on 1/4 of the pizza each so I could have other toppings on the other half. Yes, I could order my own pizza. But it's all not worth the cries about contamination, wastefulness, the double boxes of leftovers, etc.
Recently we went away for a long weekend with some vegetarians. He whined a lot, in private, about the lack of meat and his privation. So the other day I drew an analogy linking how he felt being obliged to eat meat-free with how I felt about the pizza and he actually startled and there was a flash of understanding. We'll see what happens next time.
posted by carmicha at 5:53 PM on July 31, 2015 [45 favorites]
Yes, I've brought it up. Yes, I've suggested putting the green and black olives on 1/4 of the pizza each so I could have other toppings on the other half. Yes, I could order my own pizza. But it's all not worth the cries about contamination, wastefulness, the double boxes of leftovers, etc.
Recently we went away for a long weekend with some vegetarians. He whined a lot, in private, about the lack of meat and his privation. So the other day I drew an analogy linking how he felt being obliged to eat meat-free with how I felt about the pizza and he actually startled and there was a flash of understanding. We'll see what happens next time.
posted by carmicha at 5:53 PM on July 31, 2015 [45 favorites]
What.... what an obnoxious man-child, carmicha. After all, it's not as if the vegetarians were making him eat only caprese sandwiches from now until the end of time or anything. And the whole thing where he has to have DIFFERENT OLIVES on the pepperoni bits but they can't TOUCH is ridiculous.
Seriously, contamination? Come the fuck on. That kind of thing is the sort of thing I associate with whining small children.
posted by sciatrix at 6:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [20 favorites]
Seriously, contamination? Come the fuck on. That kind of thing is the sort of thing I associate with whining small children.
posted by sciatrix at 6:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [20 favorites]
OMG pizza.
I hate olives so much. HATEEEE. In college, I once dated a guy who LOVED olives, and I made a homemade pizza. He KNEW about my olive hate, and joked about it. He KNEW. I put olives on half on the pizza, and no olives on the other half. They were exactly the same except the olives.
When it was ready, the first two pieces were on *my* side because "It just looked so good." He totally threw a fit about me "being a bitch" when I could just pick the olives off. He did.not.get. what the big deal was. This was 15 years ago, and I still rage when I think of it!
posted by CMWZ at 6:07 PM on July 31, 2015 [25 favorites]
I hate olives so much. HATEEEE. In college, I once dated a guy who LOVED olives, and I made a homemade pizza. He KNEW about my olive hate, and joked about it. He KNEW. I put olives on half on the pizza, and no olives on the other half. They were exactly the same except the olives.
When it was ready, the first two pieces were on *my* side because "It just looked so good." He totally threw a fit about me "being a bitch" when I could just pick the olives off. He did.not.get. what the big deal was. This was 15 years ago, and I still rage when I think of it!
posted by CMWZ at 6:07 PM on July 31, 2015 [25 favorites]
I have YET MORE stories about my father related to pizza!
See, my father is the sort of creature who can, in theory, cook for himself, and he has actually taken care of himself and not magically died of starvation in the past. But when other people cook for him, it MUST: be homemade with as much made from scratch as possible, be healthy and plentiful (according to whatever current recommendations there are), have meat of some sort, not be the same meal twice in a week, and preferably only one repeat a fortnight if it cannot be avoided at all costs.
He will not accept variances.
Pizza that is not made entirely from scratch (up to and including the dough, he only learned to accept store-made pizza bases in my lifetime) must be from specific places. The crust must be of a specific kind. The toppings must be specifically fresh and good and plentiful. There must be as little grease as possible. The cheese must be real cheese.
All well and good, except he then refuses to choose or place orders, refuses to pick up the pizza, and refuses to help with serving it or cleaning up afterwards because "you [my mother] didn't cook". And will only accept pizza about once a month, but two months in a row is pushing it so it's more like six times a year, max.
The more I think in depth about my parents' marriage, the more I wonder why they aren't divorced.
posted by E. Whitehall at 6:17 PM on July 31, 2015 [22 favorites]
See, my father is the sort of creature who can, in theory, cook for himself, and he has actually taken care of himself and not magically died of starvation in the past. But when other people cook for him, it MUST: be homemade with as much made from scratch as possible, be healthy and plentiful (according to whatever current recommendations there are), have meat of some sort, not be the same meal twice in a week, and preferably only one repeat a fortnight if it cannot be avoided at all costs.
He will not accept variances.
Pizza that is not made entirely from scratch (up to and including the dough, he only learned to accept store-made pizza bases in my lifetime) must be from specific places. The crust must be of a specific kind. The toppings must be specifically fresh and good and plentiful. There must be as little grease as possible. The cheese must be real cheese.
All well and good, except he then refuses to choose or place orders, refuses to pick up the pizza, and refuses to help with serving it or cleaning up afterwards because "you [my mother] didn't cook". And will only accept pizza about once a month, but two months in a row is pushing it so it's more like six times a year, max.
The more I think in depth about my parents' marriage, the more I wonder why they aren't divorced.
posted by E. Whitehall at 6:17 PM on July 31, 2015 [22 favorites]
All well and good, except he then refuses to choose or place orders, refuses to pick up the pizza, and refuses to help with serving it or cleaning up afterwards because "you [my mother] didn't cook".
I just... ARGH. Because he's owed a certain amount of her labor every evening or something? ARGH.
posted by jaguar at 6:20 PM on July 31, 2015 [28 favorites]
I just... ARGH. Because he's owed a certain amount of her labor every evening or something? ARGH.
posted by jaguar at 6:20 PM on July 31, 2015 [28 favorites]
All my married life that is the only pizza we can order.
That sentence resonated with me so much that I can't really come up with anything to say about it except: I get it, and I'm sorry you have to put up with it.
posted by jaguar at 6:25 PM on July 31, 2015 [17 favorites]
That sentence resonated with me so much that I can't really come up with anything to say about it except: I get it, and I'm sorry you have to put up with it.
posted by jaguar at 6:25 PM on July 31, 2015 [17 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Please don't give orders to people in this thread, even if you're joking. It does not read as funny. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:37 PM on July 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:37 PM on July 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
i want to prank carmicha's husband by ordering them a pizza that she wants. i mean i'll pay for it but you just have to come tell us the look on his face.
i'm guessing veggie with no olives? we'll go from there. memail me <3
i want to do other things like tell fffm's nephew's future romantic interests that he is a whiny lazy shit and definitely don't move in with him. i want to send kathrynt's FIL to have his face screamed at by one of those scared straight reality tv felons. i want a lot of things. but pizza, pizza should be easy and delicious and joy-making and when you manage to selfishly and idiotically fuck up pizza for an entire marriage. well.
posted by twist my arm at 6:38 PM on July 31, 2015 [27 favorites]
i'm guessing veggie with no olives? we'll go from there. memail me <3
i want to do other things like tell fffm's nephew's future romantic interests that he is a whiny lazy shit and definitely don't move in with him. i want to send kathrynt's FIL to have his face screamed at by one of those scared straight reality tv felons. i want a lot of things. but pizza, pizza should be easy and delicious and joy-making and when you manage to selfishly and idiotically fuck up pizza for an entire marriage. well.
posted by twist my arm at 6:38 PM on July 31, 2015 [27 favorites]
Aww, thanks everyone! On Crone Island, we can have whatever pizza we desire. It is written.
posted by carmicha at 6:48 PM on July 31, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 6:48 PM on July 31, 2015 [13 favorites]
I just felt like I should say that inspired by the pizza rage I read this morning, I ordered extra pizza tonight. Coming back to the thread and reading the rest from today, I wish I could share it.
(though we're planning on leftovers for this weekend's menu because jesus christ of course)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:53 PM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
(though we're planning on leftovers for this weekend's menu because jesus christ of course)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:53 PM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
Okay, seriously, all this talk of pizza is going to make me order a damn pizza despite the fact that pizza makes me bloat up like a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon now.
posted by palomar at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by palomar at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Despite the extra expense, we've solved the pizza problem in our household by ordering our own. Each and every time, two pizzas for two people. Because I like extra sauce and he does not and he can't stand olives or pineapples, so when I want a Hawaiian or olives with my pizza, he doesn't ask for a slice. Likewise, there are things he likes on his pizza that I don't, so I don't ask for any of his slices.
The idiosyncratic thing my husband does do which enrages me in a very illogical way is that every time I make any dish that has chicken in it, it must contain all white meat and not dark meat because he really hates the texture of it. I don't like white meat because it's not juicy or flavorful enough for me.
But because I can tolerate white meat and he won't even eat a little dark meat, guess whose preference is pushed aside every time? Yeah, you got it. For dishes where I'm using whole breasts and whole thighs, that's not a problem. But what about stir-fry? Or chicken pot pies? Or arroz con pollo?
If this were a medically required diet thing of his (like me not having white rice or lots of sodium anymore), I would understand a bit more. And yeah, he's gotten used to having brown rice and whole wheat pasta. But it's not, it's a personal preference in a shared dish. One that I'm cooking, and because he can't stand to have leftovers in the fridge for longer than a week, I'm also the one eating the leftovers if he doesn't take any to work with him... which he doesn't do either unless I remind him.
And if the leftovers are older than a week? He'll just throw them out willy-nilly. That's a food waste, and it makes me angry (cue: Asian-American food guilt) that we're wasting food that he won't even eat, even if I made it the way he likes it.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:31 PM on July 31, 2015 [12 favorites]
The idiosyncratic thing my husband does do which enrages me in a very illogical way is that every time I make any dish that has chicken in it, it must contain all white meat and not dark meat because he really hates the texture of it. I don't like white meat because it's not juicy or flavorful enough for me.
But because I can tolerate white meat and he won't even eat a little dark meat, guess whose preference is pushed aside every time? Yeah, you got it. For dishes where I'm using whole breasts and whole thighs, that's not a problem. But what about stir-fry? Or chicken pot pies? Or arroz con pollo?
If this were a medically required diet thing of his (like me not having white rice or lots of sodium anymore), I would understand a bit more. And yeah, he's gotten used to having brown rice and whole wheat pasta. But it's not, it's a personal preference in a shared dish. One that I'm cooking, and because he can't stand to have leftovers in the fridge for longer than a week, I'm also the one eating the leftovers if he doesn't take any to work with him... which he doesn't do either unless I remind him.
And if the leftovers are older than a week? He'll just throw them out willy-nilly. That's a food waste, and it makes me angry (cue: Asian-American food guilt) that we're wasting food that he won't even eat, even if I made it the way he likes it.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:31 PM on July 31, 2015 [12 favorites]
Older than a week? I'd toss them too.
posted by futz at 8:41 PM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by futz at 8:41 PM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
Older than a week? I'd toss them too.
When I did ctrl-f and searched for "my husband" and 194 results came up, I knew that I needed to just be listening in this thread and not contributing. However, I do need to say that three to four days is generally the max before needing to freeze leftovers.
back to lurking.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:28 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
When I did ctrl-f and searched for "my husband" and 194 results came up, I knew that I needed to just be listening in this thread and not contributing. However, I do need to say that three to four days is generally the max before needing to freeze leftovers.
back to lurking.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:28 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
Not sure if this goes here or in the metatalk thread but I thought I'd cross link to all the other places this conversation has spread to that I know of, as of now.
On mefi:
Emotional labor checklist - discussion , links to ongoing google doc/dropbox docs
Should I go straight to crone island
No, really, you shouldn't have - how do I react to someone else's emotional labor
How do I bring up emotional labor in my relationship
Great songs that discuss unequal emotional labor
Emotional [Labor] Rescue - a metatalk thread about this post
For folks not super familiar with the family of metafilter* subsites as well as keeping up with anything that happens after this thread closes this search will check across the whole site [as search works when this comment was posted] for the term emotional labor. You can always trim it down to one of the subsites by using the 'showing posts from' drop down box.
Off metafilter and in reaction to the metafilter post:
Staranise , Elf, Siderea , Kaberett 1 , 2
posted by ladyriffraff at 9:42 PM on July 31, 2015 [82 favorites]
On mefi:
Emotional labor checklist - discussion , links to ongoing google doc/dropbox docs
Should I go straight to crone island
No, really, you shouldn't have - how do I react to someone else's emotional labor
How do I bring up emotional labor in my relationship
Great songs that discuss unequal emotional labor
Emotional [Labor] Rescue - a metatalk thread about this post
For folks not super familiar with the family of metafilter* subsites as well as keeping up with anything that happens after this thread closes this search will check across the whole site [as search works when this comment was posted] for the term emotional labor. You can always trim it down to one of the subsites by using the 'showing posts from' drop down box.
Off metafilter and in reaction to the metafilter post:
Staranise , Elf, Siderea , Kaberett 1 , 2
posted by ladyriffraff at 9:42 PM on July 31, 2015 [82 favorites]
Earlier this year: Emotional Labor extension automatically inserts extra enthusiasm into emails.
posted by deludingmyself at 10:29 PM on July 31, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by deludingmyself at 10:29 PM on July 31, 2015 [12 favorites]
HOLY CATS I MADE IT TO THE COMMENT BOX.
I have many comments, but I'm late, so here are a few.
I. I love you Metafilter. I'm glad I made time to read this whole thread. So, so glad. And LOLs or maybe back-pats for me for budgeting my time and attention such that I had to consider whether I would, cuz f'real, I have a 16 week old infant and the ability to perform EL fluctuates throughout our lives and has to be rebalanced slowly, like diffusion across the cell wall of the self, at times of major life change, so I was like "dunno if I can have anyone being wrong on the internet right now." But YAY MODS this thread is very little wrong and SO right! I kiss you. And I think it's been a very useful addition to my toolkit at this time of change. I don't know, y'all... I think becoming a mom might be THE BIG ONE in terms of EL supply and demand in fluctuation. And really, that has been the main shake-up for me, personally, for parenthood. There have been relationship management flareups, for sure, and I very much see why so many people warn about relationships between parents "never being the same," and taking a nosedive when the baby comes. I was and am confident that me and my mefite partner will weather it well, and that he is INVESTED in levelling up and earning the privilege of making margaritas and guac on Crone Island, because he just so happens to be The Best at both those things.
II. Anecdote/Advice from the Newmamaland (diplomatically dependent on Crone Island's generous resources for years). Way upthread, the discussion of feeding baby was broached. Can we not pretend that feeding a baby pumped breastmilk is "relieving" mom? It is so not. Not necessarily... First, mom has to make time to pump, which is a complicated little chore requiring sanitized machinery and thoughtful timing and sometimes physical pain and frustration. It might be worth it for her, and it might not be, to give the baby to someone else, with a bottle, to feed; it might just be courting further stress for her. When the baby was brand-new, I very often heard "When can he take a bottle? Oh that will be such a relief to you." Oh yeah? Explain how. Crone Islanders, don't do that.
III. My War Story. I am not in touch with my father. We fell out of touch at one point, he held me responsible for that lapse, and later in email I explained to him that if he wanted to mend things and make a relationship with me, he would have to reckon with the emotional damage that he had done. This incensed him and we have not spoken since. These events happened, in reverse order, at approximately ages 23 and 8. EIGHT.
IV. Does anyone else feel terribly disappointed or slightly retraumatized by the way men don't use Facebook? I know there were some stories upthread to the effect that, yes, in some cases you specifically do, but as a whole I keep feeling peeved that so much emotional community has been made easier to manage (or this is how it seems to work in my milieu) and yet men STILL don't do the now much easier workload of organizing social contact and events. I guess it's My Failed Egalitarian Internet Utopia, but.... Dudes. Dudes! Get on it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:24 PM on July 31, 2015 [33 favorites]
I have many comments, but I'm late, so here are a few.
I. I love you Metafilter. I'm glad I made time to read this whole thread. So, so glad. And LOLs or maybe back-pats for me for budgeting my time and attention such that I had to consider whether I would, cuz f'real, I have a 16 week old infant and the ability to perform EL fluctuates throughout our lives and has to be rebalanced slowly, like diffusion across the cell wall of the self, at times of major life change, so I was like "dunno if I can have anyone being wrong on the internet right now." But YAY MODS this thread is very little wrong and SO right! I kiss you. And I think it's been a very useful addition to my toolkit at this time of change. I don't know, y'all... I think becoming a mom might be THE BIG ONE in terms of EL supply and demand in fluctuation. And really, that has been the main shake-up for me, personally, for parenthood. There have been relationship management flareups, for sure, and I very much see why so many people warn about relationships between parents "never being the same," and taking a nosedive when the baby comes. I was and am confident that me and my mefite partner will weather it well, and that he is INVESTED in levelling up and earning the privilege of making margaritas and guac on Crone Island, because he just so happens to be The Best at both those things.
II. Anecdote/Advice from the Newmamaland (diplomatically dependent on Crone Island's generous resources for years). Way upthread, the discussion of feeding baby was broached. Can we not pretend that feeding a baby pumped breastmilk is "relieving" mom? It is so not. Not necessarily... First, mom has to make time to pump, which is a complicated little chore requiring sanitized machinery and thoughtful timing and sometimes physical pain and frustration. It might be worth it for her, and it might not be, to give the baby to someone else, with a bottle, to feed; it might just be courting further stress for her. When the baby was brand-new, I very often heard "When can he take a bottle? Oh that will be such a relief to you." Oh yeah? Explain how. Crone Islanders, don't do that.
III. My War Story. I am not in touch with my father. We fell out of touch at one point, he held me responsible for that lapse, and later in email I explained to him that if he wanted to mend things and make a relationship with me, he would have to reckon with the emotional damage that he had done. This incensed him and we have not spoken since. These events happened, in reverse order, at approximately ages 23 and 8. EIGHT.
IV. Does anyone else feel terribly disappointed or slightly retraumatized by the way men don't use Facebook? I know there were some stories upthread to the effect that, yes, in some cases you specifically do, but as a whole I keep feeling peeved that so much emotional community has been made easier to manage (or this is how it seems to work in my milieu) and yet men STILL don't do the now much easier workload of organizing social contact and events. I guess it's My Failed Egalitarian Internet Utopia, but.... Dudes. Dudes! Get on it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:24 PM on July 31, 2015 [33 favorites]
Waitaminute.
(a) KathrynT is in agony and unable to eat, so she just gets dropped off at Urgent Care without anyone to wait around to SEE IF SHE NEEDS SURGERY OR NOT?
(b) That need to go to the Urgent Care is ignored because wah, we'll eat so late! (Like that's gonna kill you? Oh, wait, you gain 20 pounds if you eat after 9!)
(c) Therefore, KathrynT had to WAIT at home in pain for an hour plus so the mens and the kids could be fed on time. Which I'm sure wouldn't have been any issue at all timewise had she actually needed surgery. Like that might not have killed her, right?
(d) Oh noes, two men will have to babysit! For an hour!
(e) Plus she needs to call someone online for a ride home instead of the famdamnily members.
WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK YOUR ENTIRE MENFOLKS I AM IN RAGE WHAT THE SHITTING FUCK. Oh fuck no. They should have dropped everything to make sure you got to the hospital and then either gone hungry (oh noes!) or sat around eating hospital food (though who knows if that's safe for the kiddo either) while waiting to see if you had to get an operation that night so YOU could eat again. I can't even. I just can't even. I don't know how you're not losing your shit on one or both of them right now, because even if his dad is crazypants and he tolerates it because he can't get another dad (can I judge?), neither of them should have thought this was okay for a damn second. If someone is that sick, you drop everything to get them treatment, period. They are just lucky you didn't have a bad enough ailment to kill you while you waited for them to eat pho first.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:00 AM on August 1, 2015 [55 favorites]
(a) KathrynT is in agony and unable to eat, so she just gets dropped off at Urgent Care without anyone to wait around to SEE IF SHE NEEDS SURGERY OR NOT?
(b) That need to go to the Urgent Care is ignored because wah, we'll eat so late! (Like that's gonna kill you? Oh, wait, you gain 20 pounds if you eat after 9!)
(c) Therefore, KathrynT had to WAIT at home in pain for an hour plus so the mens and the kids could be fed on time. Which I'm sure wouldn't have been any issue at all timewise had she actually needed surgery. Like that might not have killed her, right?
(d) Oh noes, two men will have to babysit! For an hour!
(e) Plus she needs to call someone online for a ride home instead of the famdamnily members.
WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK YOUR ENTIRE MENFOLKS I AM IN RAGE WHAT THE SHITTING FUCK. Oh fuck no. They should have dropped everything to make sure you got to the hospital and then either gone hungry (oh noes!) or sat around eating hospital food (though who knows if that's safe for the kiddo either) while waiting to see if you had to get an operation that night so YOU could eat again. I can't even. I just can't even. I don't know how you're not losing your shit on one or both of them right now, because even if his dad is crazypants and he tolerates it because he can't get another dad (can I judge?), neither of them should have thought this was okay for a damn second. If someone is that sick, you drop everything to get them treatment, period. They are just lucky you didn't have a bad enough ailment to kill you while you waited for them to eat pho first.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:00 AM on August 1, 2015 [55 favorites]
Yeah, this thread has been an... adventure in rage. There's that personal "AND LET ME TELL YOU WHAT HE/SHE SAID" thing that we all need to get off our chests, followed immediately by "THEY DID WHAT TO YOU???" on behalf of the other women sharing their stories.
We are made of some tough stuff. I really wish we didn't need to be, but holy crap at the end of the day you guys are all some strong ass mofos.
THE SHEER RESTRAINT YOU SHOW MY GOD
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:27 AM on August 1, 2015 [28 favorites]
We are made of some tough stuff. I really wish we didn't need to be, but holy crap at the end of the day you guys are all some strong ass mofos.
THE SHEER RESTRAINT YOU SHOW MY GOD
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:27 AM on August 1, 2015 [28 favorites]
Oh dear Lord, my husband whom I love dearly and asked to read this thread two days ago but still hasn’t just asked me if there is not going to be a grocery trip this weekend. This after I told him that aside from taking the kids out to breakfast this AM (as I do every Saturday because he is a stay-at-home-dad and deserves a few hours to himself one morning a week) and taking the oldest child to an art exhibition tomorrow (because I want to go and she’s into ART even though she’s only three and OMG MUST ENCOURAGE THIS because my spouse won't or doesn't know how), I wasn’t planning on going out this weekend.
And he got a deer in the headlights look in his eyes.
And instead of just leaving “No” at “No,” I added that I didn’t want to deal w/ it because it’s been an emotionally and intellectually exhausting week at work and at home and dammit, I don’t want to sit down and do all the planning for all of our different schedules and dietary needs and then either go myself (it’s a half hour drive and we live abroad for my job so it’s exhausting to try and order the right kind of goddamned chicken in a language I can work in but can’t buy groceries in) OR OMG EVEN WORSE send him by himself while I watch the kids and have him FaceTime me two or three times just to make sure he’s getting the right tuna fish EVEN THOUGH WE BUY TUNA FISH EVERY WEEK and then have him come home with items missing b/c he didn’t feel like searching for them or making a second stop and then having to replan all of the meals and spend all day Sunday cooking anyway. Especially since I spent ALL WEEK cooking for a work event I hosted last night.
And he said, “Oh."
And when I brightly said, “But you’re welcome to do the meal planning and prep yourself," he just looked at me.
And I said, “No sweat. We have plenty of rice and eggs for the kids, and I’m happy to survive on fruit and nuts all week."
And it was such a stupid thing, but now I’m crying.
Goddammit.
I have been a lurker (and an almost daily reader) of this website since, oh, the early 2000s? And got an account (that I rarely use) years ago when membership opened up for the low price of $5. But I don’t comment much, for a lot of reasons that are, in retrospect, pretty dumb. And I just want to say thank you thank you thank you thank you to all of the amazing women who have shared their stories in this thread and made me feel a little bit less alone in the world right now and even more importantly given me the vocabulary to articulate what is wrong right now. Thank you.
posted by asnowballschance at 1:48 AM on August 1, 2015 [101 favorites]
And he got a deer in the headlights look in his eyes.
And instead of just leaving “No” at “No,” I added that I didn’t want to deal w/ it because it’s been an emotionally and intellectually exhausting week at work and at home and dammit, I don’t want to sit down and do all the planning for all of our different schedules and dietary needs and then either go myself (it’s a half hour drive and we live abroad for my job so it’s exhausting to try and order the right kind of goddamned chicken in a language I can work in but can’t buy groceries in) OR OMG EVEN WORSE send him by himself while I watch the kids and have him FaceTime me two or three times just to make sure he’s getting the right tuna fish EVEN THOUGH WE BUY TUNA FISH EVERY WEEK and then have him come home with items missing b/c he didn’t feel like searching for them or making a second stop and then having to replan all of the meals and spend all day Sunday cooking anyway. Especially since I spent ALL WEEK cooking for a work event I hosted last night.
And he said, “Oh."
And when I brightly said, “But you’re welcome to do the meal planning and prep yourself," he just looked at me.
And I said, “No sweat. We have plenty of rice and eggs for the kids, and I’m happy to survive on fruit and nuts all week."
And it was such a stupid thing, but now I’m crying.
Goddammit.
I have been a lurker (and an almost daily reader) of this website since, oh, the early 2000s? And got an account (that I rarely use) years ago when membership opened up for the low price of $5. But I don’t comment much, for a lot of reasons that are, in retrospect, pretty dumb. And I just want to say thank you thank you thank you thank you to all of the amazing women who have shared their stories in this thread and made me feel a little bit less alone in the world right now and even more importantly given me the vocabulary to articulate what is wrong right now. Thank you.
posted by asnowballschance at 1:48 AM on August 1, 2015 [101 favorites]
asnowballschance, I am so glad you wrote.
posted by Thella at 2:32 AM on August 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Thella at 2:32 AM on August 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
asnowballschance, that made me angry and weepy on your behalf. Thank you for sharing.
From Ambrosia Voyeur: Does anyone else feel terribly disappointed or slightly retraumatized by the way men don't use Facebook? I know there were some stories upthread to the effect that, yes, in some cases you specifically do, but as a whole I keep feeling peeved that so much emotional community has been made easier to manage (or this is how it seems to work in my milieu) and yet men STILL don't do the now much easier workload of organizing social contact and events. I guess it's My Failed Egalitarian Internet Utopia, but.... Dudes. Dudes! Get on it.
YES. YES I DO. My husband has a Facebook account, but almost literally never checks it, and says that Facebook is stupid. Meanwhile, I'm keeping up with all the relationships, finding out when people are pregnant or sick or lost a parent, sending cards, writing the messages, etc.
He recently commented that it's crazy how, just about every time we travel anywhere in the world, we almost always meet up with a friend from the past. It's just so amazing! It's crazy that his super introverted wife just *knows* all these people!
IT'S BECAUSE I KEEP UP WITH PEOPLE, AND FACEBOOK, WHICH IN YOUR MIND IS A STUPID WASTE OF TIME, HELPS ME DO THAT.
*ahem* I have feelings about this topic.
posted by CMWZ at 7:58 AM on August 1, 2015 [45 favorites]
From Ambrosia Voyeur: Does anyone else feel terribly disappointed or slightly retraumatized by the way men don't use Facebook? I know there were some stories upthread to the effect that, yes, in some cases you specifically do, but as a whole I keep feeling peeved that so much emotional community has been made easier to manage (or this is how it seems to work in my milieu) and yet men STILL don't do the now much easier workload of organizing social contact and events. I guess it's My Failed Egalitarian Internet Utopia, but.... Dudes. Dudes! Get on it.
YES. YES I DO. My husband has a Facebook account, but almost literally never checks it, and says that Facebook is stupid. Meanwhile, I'm keeping up with all the relationships, finding out when people are pregnant or sick or lost a parent, sending cards, writing the messages, etc.
He recently commented that it's crazy how, just about every time we travel anywhere in the world, we almost always meet up with a friend from the past. It's just so amazing! It's crazy that his super introverted wife just *knows* all these people!
IT'S BECAUSE I KEEP UP WITH PEOPLE, AND FACEBOOK, WHICH IN YOUR MIND IS A STUPID WASTE OF TIME, HELPS ME DO THAT.
*ahem* I have feelings about this topic.
posted by CMWZ at 7:58 AM on August 1, 2015 [45 favorites]
I joined this community because of this thread. I have laughed and cried and fumed with you. Thank you for all of this.
I spent decades doing all of the emotional work in my "we're not dysfunctional!" family, and years choosing partners based on who I could fix. These days, I have no contact with my family, and my husband handles his own messes - and mine! - amazingly well. We work together to fix what's broken. But I remember the burdens. I refuse to pick them up anymore.
After spending any spare moment the last four days poring through this thread, I'm now at a loss for words. But I like tacos. I appreciate all of you. Be strong, be yourselves. Don't pick it up - it's not yours.
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 8:00 AM on August 1, 2015 [21 favorites]
I spent decades doing all of the emotional work in my "we're not dysfunctional!" family, and years choosing partners based on who I could fix. These days, I have no contact with my family, and my husband handles his own messes - and mine! - amazingly well. We work together to fix what's broken. But I remember the burdens. I refuse to pick them up anymore.
After spending any spare moment the last four days poring through this thread, I'm now at a loss for words. But I like tacos. I appreciate all of you. Be strong, be yourselves. Don't pick it up - it's not yours.
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 8:00 AM on August 1, 2015 [21 favorites]
RIGHT YES OKAY HELLO I HAVE SIGNED UP TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS THREAD
0. Thank you all so much for this thread: I've spent the past week or so reading it and feeling very sad about various relatives and some of my past relationships (that I'd known were shite but... well, some of it had just faded into the overall morass, you know? so I hadn't managed to pull out all the specifics, and it's sort of fascinating to be able to go oh that's why I was so despairing over that particular thing or huh hadn't even noticed that that was one of the things grinding me down, but it totally was, wasn't it.
1. It is probably extremely poor form to do this, but nonetheless a note about language - it's made me wince to see folk whose comments I am otherwise cheering on equate genital configuration with gender identity & expression; many of my favourite men are, in fact, dickless, and lots of my favourite women have dicks, to the extent that these days I'm always a little startled if someone gets naked in front of me and they're a dude with a dick or a lady with a cunt; trans folk are here & are reading &, well, it has made me Sad. (Relatedly, I'm finding it kind of fascinating to watch people cheerfully use "blind spot" about obliviousness, thoughtlessness & carelessness; but that's one I'm very much still working on as some of my friends start talking more about being partially sighted or blind.)
2. So the other thing I'm finding really fascinating about all this is that I'm autistic. Adult diagnosis, very much with the standard female-socialised children are underdiagnosed background (FAAB, genderqueer, pronouns they, thanks). And -- I have ended up actively building models of so much of this stuff for myself, in order to be able to interact "correctly" with other people; and I've felt so guilty for consciously thinking through all of the steps, most of the time, in case that counts as "gaming" or "manipulating" people or what-have-you; and it's just... such an intense relief to see other people explicitly acknowledge that this is work and that they're shaping their interactions in consciousness of it, because it makes me feel less alien and less like I'm inherently unethical for having identified (some but not all of) this and acting on it, so... thank you. And I think that's some of the thing: being conscious of this work and describing it as such absolutely is stigmatised, and you absolutely do get treated as disgusting and dangerous and so on for explicitly using it as a framework, and that isolates people and prevents us from supporting each other and it's bullshit.
3. Picking up the thread about PMS from a little while ago, with respect to it being five days a month that non-menstruating partners are expected to pick up some of the emotional labour slack: I am reminded, with wry amusement, of the exasperated statement that people aren't more irrational or unreasonable when they have PMS, they just have less patience for your bullshit. So. Heh. (And yet of course a reduced willingness on the part of women to perform "invisible" emotional labour gets culturally framed as irrational and preposterous...)
Thank you all again. <3
posted by kaberett at 8:04 AM on August 1, 2015 [53 favorites]
0. Thank you all so much for this thread: I've spent the past week or so reading it and feeling very sad about various relatives and some of my past relationships (that I'd known were shite but... well, some of it had just faded into the overall morass, you know? so I hadn't managed to pull out all the specifics, and it's sort of fascinating to be able to go oh that's why I was so despairing over that particular thing or huh hadn't even noticed that that was one of the things grinding me down, but it totally was, wasn't it.
1. It is probably extremely poor form to do this, but nonetheless a note about language - it's made me wince to see folk whose comments I am otherwise cheering on equate genital configuration with gender identity & expression; many of my favourite men are, in fact, dickless, and lots of my favourite women have dicks, to the extent that these days I'm always a little startled if someone gets naked in front of me and they're a dude with a dick or a lady with a cunt; trans folk are here & are reading &, well, it has made me Sad. (Relatedly, I'm finding it kind of fascinating to watch people cheerfully use "blind spot" about obliviousness, thoughtlessness & carelessness; but that's one I'm very much still working on as some of my friends start talking more about being partially sighted or blind.)
2. So the other thing I'm finding really fascinating about all this is that I'm autistic. Adult diagnosis, very much with the standard female-socialised children are underdiagnosed background (FAAB, genderqueer, pronouns they, thanks). And -- I have ended up actively building models of so much of this stuff for myself, in order to be able to interact "correctly" with other people; and I've felt so guilty for consciously thinking through all of the steps, most of the time, in case that counts as "gaming" or "manipulating" people or what-have-you; and it's just... such an intense relief to see other people explicitly acknowledge that this is work and that they're shaping their interactions in consciousness of it, because it makes me feel less alien and less like I'm inherently unethical for having identified (some but not all of) this and acting on it, so... thank you. And I think that's some of the thing: being conscious of this work and describing it as such absolutely is stigmatised, and you absolutely do get treated as disgusting and dangerous and so on for explicitly using it as a framework, and that isolates people and prevents us from supporting each other and it's bullshit.
3. Picking up the thread about PMS from a little while ago, with respect to it being five days a month that non-menstruating partners are expected to pick up some of the emotional labour slack: I am reminded, with wry amusement, of the exasperated statement that people aren't more irrational or unreasonable when they have PMS, they just have less patience for your bullshit. So. Heh. (And yet of course a reduced willingness on the part of women to perform "invisible" emotional labour gets culturally framed as irrational and preposterous...)
Thank you all again. <3
posted by kaberett at 8:04 AM on August 1, 2015 [53 favorites]
Still reading and absorbing, still blown away. A couple more thoughts:
1. On men who identify as feminists or who state up front their genuine respect of women. This can be wonderful (and heartfelt thanks to all the allies out there), but I've learned it can also be a red flag in one-on-one conversations with people. The men I've known IRL who were the most vocal about their respect of women were the ones who later displayed some of the most egregiously sexist behavior I've ever seen. These weren't good people making honest blindspot mistakes either. In at least in one case it's a "nice guy" mask the person wears to fly under the radar as a missing stair. I've walked away from multiple friendships because it fills me with incandescent rage that people put up with this behavior for the sake of group harmony. Goddamn shitty geek social fallacies.
2. As much as the typical corporate nonsense pisses me off, I won't work for non-profits anymore because of the amount of EL they require, especially from their female staff. ("So you want me to host forums after hours, but you won't pay me overtime or even for my taxi home after the busses stop running?" Turns out they didn't need the forums after all. Quelle surprise.)
3. This discussion has a martini gap. I'll bring my penguin cocktail shaker, London dry, fresh basil, lemons and cucumber. We're gonna need a bigger ice machine.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 9:25 AM on August 1, 2015 [31 favorites]
1. On men who identify as feminists or who state up front their genuine respect of women. This can be wonderful (and heartfelt thanks to all the allies out there), but I've learned it can also be a red flag in one-on-one conversations with people. The men I've known IRL who were the most vocal about their respect of women were the ones who later displayed some of the most egregiously sexist behavior I've ever seen. These weren't good people making honest blindspot mistakes either. In at least in one case it's a "nice guy" mask the person wears to fly under the radar as a missing stair. I've walked away from multiple friendships because it fills me with incandescent rage that people put up with this behavior for the sake of group harmony. Goddamn shitty geek social fallacies.
2. As much as the typical corporate nonsense pisses me off, I won't work for non-profits anymore because of the amount of EL they require, especially from their female staff. ("So you want me to host forums after hours, but you won't pay me overtime or even for my taxi home after the busses stop running?" Turns out they didn't need the forums after all. Quelle surprise.)
3. This discussion has a martini gap. I'll bring my penguin cocktail shaker, London dry, fresh basil, lemons and cucumber. We're gonna need a bigger ice machine.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 9:25 AM on August 1, 2015 [31 favorites]
Has anyone kept track of how many $5 ;p this thread has already earned with all the new signups?
posted by infini at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2015
posted by infini at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2015
Now that would be an interesting metric. "This post and thread has earned the site $55. Gold stars all around!"
posted by XtinaS at 9:52 AM on August 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 9:52 AM on August 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
(On initial scan-through, I count $30-35 spent for this thread. Range is because one person mentioned a friend signing up b/c of this thread, and idk if that friend is one of the others in the list.)
(/nerd)
posted by XtinaS at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
(/nerd)
posted by XtinaS at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
Has anyone kept track of how many $5 ;p this thread has already earned with all the new signups?
And how many favorites were given for comments?
How many comments were posted by low- or no-frequency commenters?
How active has the thread remained with respect to how many days it has been posted?
And how does all of this compare to similar gigantic threads?
How many people shared this link (or related MeFi links) with friends, whether in person or via social media?
How many partners, when asked to read it, actually read it?
How many times has this thread made a tangible difference in how a commenter acts/speaks/thinks IRL?
Asking for a friend, of course...
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:04 AM on August 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
And how many favorites were given for comments?
How many comments were posted by low- or no-frequency commenters?
How active has the thread remained with respect to how many days it has been posted?
And how does all of this compare to similar gigantic threads?
How many people shared this link (or related MeFi links) with friends, whether in person or via social media?
How many partners, when asked to read it, actually read it?
How many times has this thread made a tangible difference in how a commenter acts/speaks/thinks IRL?
Asking for a friend, of course...
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:04 AM on August 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's not just the new accounts (yay, new accounts!), though. This thread (and the excellent moderation that's supported it) made me set up a separate monthly donation to get the I Help Fund Metafilter star on my profile page, even though my husband was already making a monthly donation from our household.
posted by deludingmyself at 10:07 AM on August 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by deludingmyself at 10:07 AM on August 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
And how many favorites were given for comments?
How many comments were posted by low- or no-frequency commenters?
How active has the thread remained with respect to how many days it has been posted?
And how does all of this compare to similar gigantic threads?
How many people shared this link (or related MeFi links) with friends, whether in person or via social media?
How many partners, when asked to read it, actually read it?
How many times has this thread made a tangible difference in how a commenter acts/speaks/thinks IRL?
How many days until Metafilter hits the first page of results for Googling "emotional labor," instead of just the second?
posted by deludingmyself at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
How many comments were posted by low- or no-frequency commenters?
How active has the thread remained with respect to how many days it has been posted?
And how does all of this compare to similar gigantic threads?
How many people shared this link (or related MeFi links) with friends, whether in person or via social media?
How many partners, when asked to read it, actually read it?
How many times has this thread made a tangible difference in how a commenter acts/speaks/thinks IRL?
How many days until Metafilter hits the first page of results for Googling "emotional labor," instead of just the second?
posted by deludingmyself at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
kaberett: Excellent point about gendered language, which is why I didn't use a traditionally mean-spirited female-gendered insult to use for fffm's (assumed) traditionally male nephew.
To clarify on the food thing: Yes, if something grows mold, it gets tossed out. And if it smells off to my hubs (whose sense of smell is way better than mine due to my having smoked for a long time) it gets tossed. But if it doesn't smell, and it's just over three to five days old, I'll eat it because OMG, WHY ARE YOU WASTING FOOD THAT WE SPENT MONEY ON FOR YOU TO EAT THERE ARE STARVING PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, YOU'RE GOING TO SIT RIGHT DOWN IN THAT CHAIR AND CONTINUE TO EAT YOUR FOOD, MISSY, BECAUSE YOUR FATHER AND I WORKED HARD TO GET THAT FOOD FOR YOU, DID YOU KNOW THAT WHEN WE WERE IN THE PHILIPPINES, WE WOULD ONLY HAVE CHICKEN ONCE A WEEK AND IT WAS A SPECIAL OCCASION, YOU DON'T LOVE US AND WHAT WE DO FOR YOU..........
posted by TrishaLynn at 10:15 AM on August 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
To clarify on the food thing: Yes, if something grows mold, it gets tossed out. And if it smells off to my hubs (whose sense of smell is way better than mine due to my having smoked for a long time) it gets tossed. But if it doesn't smell, and it's just over three to five days old, I'll eat it because OMG, WHY ARE YOU WASTING FOOD THAT WE SPENT MONEY ON FOR YOU TO EAT THERE ARE STARVING PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, YOU'RE GOING TO SIT RIGHT DOWN IN THAT CHAIR AND CONTINUE TO EAT YOUR FOOD, MISSY, BECAUSE YOUR FATHER AND I WORKED HARD TO GET THAT FOOD FOR YOU, DID YOU KNOW THAT WHEN WE WERE IN THE PHILIPPINES, WE WOULD ONLY HAVE CHICKEN ONCE A WEEK AND IT WAS A SPECIAL OCCASION, YOU DON'T LOVE US AND WHAT WE DO FOR YOU..........
posted by TrishaLynn at 10:15 AM on August 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
Relevant to EL in the office: Woman Quickly Cycles Through Non-Threatening Voice Inflections Before Expressing Concern. Read through to the punchline.
posted by immlass at 10:32 AM on August 1, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by immlass at 10:32 AM on August 1, 2015 [26 favorites]
But if it doesn't smell, and it's just over three to five days old, I'll eat it because OMG, WHY ARE YOU WASTING FOOD THAT WE SPENT MONEY ON FOR YOU TO EAT THERE ARE STARVING PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, YOU'RE GOING TO SIT RIGHT DOWN IN THAT CHAIR AND CONTINUE TO EAT YOUR FOOD, MISSY, BECAUSE YOUR FATHER AND I WORKED HARD TO GET THAT FOOD FOR YOU, DID YOU KNOW THAT WHEN WE WERE IN THE PHILIPPINES, WE WOULD ONLY HAVE CHICKEN ONCE A WEEK AND IT WAS A SPECIAL OCCASION, YOU DON'T LOVE US AND WHAT WE DO FOR YOU..........
I hope it didn't seem like I was giving you too hard a time over this (or distracted from the main point of your post, which is legitimate frustration). My wife and I have just had this conversation a number of times, and I'm sure my insecurities and being overly-careful about food comes from bad childhood experiences (eating bad food), and my wife comes from a family in which you don't be wasteful with food and you plan ahead by making sure you use it all over a period of time. I've had times where I've said that I have a hard time eating food because it's too old, and it hits a sore spot (and then I point to studies by the Mayo clinic that say don't eat food over four days, and freeze it long before hand, blah blah). Your concern, though, was connected to your overall feeling about him not respecting food and your perspective on it, which was legit. (By the way, dark meat is the best.)
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:36 AM on August 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
I hope it didn't seem like I was giving you too hard a time over this (or distracted from the main point of your post, which is legitimate frustration). My wife and I have just had this conversation a number of times, and I'm sure my insecurities and being overly-careful about food comes from bad childhood experiences (eating bad food), and my wife comes from a family in which you don't be wasteful with food and you plan ahead by making sure you use it all over a period of time. I've had times where I've said that I have a hard time eating food because it's too old, and it hits a sore spot (and then I point to studies by the Mayo clinic that say don't eat food over four days, and freeze it long before hand, blah blah). Your concern, though, was connected to your overall feeling about him not respecting food and your perspective on it, which was legit. (By the way, dark meat is the best.)
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:36 AM on August 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
No worries, SpacemanStix. My husband read the food safety manual for fun one time and has had traumatic food experiences, too, which is why our compromises also include labeling all of our leftovers so that I know what he won't eat and can nag emotionally love him into eating before it goes "bad." I also halve all of my regular recipes (which are/were designed to serve 4 and also have leftovers for a few days), and we have a chest freezer downstairs for overflow, too.
But doesn't this seem like a lot of work and planning, even for someone you love?
posted by TrishaLynn at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
But doesn't this seem like a lot of work and planning, even for someone you love?
posted by TrishaLynn at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
When the baby was brand-new, I very often heard "When can he take a bottle? Oh that will be such a relief to you." Oh yeah? Explain how. Crone Islanders, don't do that.
People who ask that question are assholes. People that think giving a bottle to a nursling is a "relief" are fucking idiots.
Explain how it's a relief? It ain't. Jesus, what is WRONG with people?
posted by MissySedai at 10:49 AM on August 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
People who ask that question are assholes. People that think giving a bottle to a nursling is a "relief" are fucking idiots.
Explain how it's a relief? It ain't. Jesus, what is WRONG with people?
posted by MissySedai at 10:49 AM on August 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
To the comment about equating genital configuration to gender expression and identity…
Rob Portman had a comedy routine where he divided people into hunters and gatherers, which he maintained was a more useful behavioral division than “men” and “women,” even though there was most overlap between men/hunters and women/gatherers. His routine focused on the differences in perception both roles required and postulated that it remains coded in our DNA and explains many interpersonal conflicts today.
For example, hunters scan the savannah looking for a single specific thing with one purpose in mind—kill an antelope, say—while gatherers scan more generally and multi-task: find edible plants, remember what's poisonous, make a note to come back to this bush next week when the berries will be ripe, recall that the shaman is out of a particular herb, stop to address a child or elder’s needs, etc.
So the hunter regards the whole pantry as a single scene and if the jar of peanut butter doesn’t leap out immediately it can’t be seen. The gatherer remembers where the jar was last time or scans the shelves systematically, aided by the memory of the blue label. The hunter goes to the mall to buy one thing—a blue blazer—and takes home the first one that fits. Meanwhile the gatherer visits every store while running a massive mental spreadsheet comparing cost, style, specific shades of navy as compared to five other garments it must match, etc. while noting that the shoes the kid needs for gym will be on sale next week and picking up a Christmas present even though it’s August.
Pre EL-consciousness-raising, it was a useful way of thinking about things.
[NB: All this predates Portman’s decision to monetize his idea into a schtick-y one-man play called “Defending the Caveman,” complete with Flintstones furniture, that is produced all over the country for lafs and thus makes it difficult to find a pertinent YouTube video to share with you.]
posted by carmicha at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
Rob Portman had a comedy routine where he divided people into hunters and gatherers, which he maintained was a more useful behavioral division than “men” and “women,” even though there was most overlap between men/hunters and women/gatherers. His routine focused on the differences in perception both roles required and postulated that it remains coded in our DNA and explains many interpersonal conflicts today.
For example, hunters scan the savannah looking for a single specific thing with one purpose in mind—kill an antelope, say—while gatherers scan more generally and multi-task: find edible plants, remember what's poisonous, make a note to come back to this bush next week when the berries will be ripe, recall that the shaman is out of a particular herb, stop to address a child or elder’s needs, etc.
So the hunter regards the whole pantry as a single scene and if the jar of peanut butter doesn’t leap out immediately it can’t be seen. The gatherer remembers where the jar was last time or scans the shelves systematically, aided by the memory of the blue label. The hunter goes to the mall to buy one thing—a blue blazer—and takes home the first one that fits. Meanwhile the gatherer visits every store while running a massive mental spreadsheet comparing cost, style, specific shades of navy as compared to five other garments it must match, etc. while noting that the shoes the kid needs for gym will be on sale next week and picking up a Christmas present even though it’s August.
Pre EL-consciousness-raising, it was a useful way of thinking about things.
[NB: All this predates Portman’s decision to monetize his idea into a schtick-y one-man play called “Defending the Caveman,” complete with Flintstones furniture, that is produced all over the country for lafs and thus makes it difficult to find a pertinent YouTube video to share with you.]
posted by carmicha at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2015 [16 favorites]
People who ask that question are assholes. People that think giving a bottle to a nursling is a "relief" are fucking idiots.
Well, there's people who should be sent straight to hell, and then there are people who are not experts on the thing you're an expert on.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:15 AM on August 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
Well, there's people who should be sent straight to hell, and then there are people who are not experts on the thing you're an expert on.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:15 AM on August 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
Well, after I got divorced and got a corporate job and my oldest son took over most of the grocery shopping and cooking, like my father and ex husband, I began asking "What's in the fridge?" It was very eye opening.
I both agree that some gender differences are coded into our genes and that gender roles growing out of division of labor is a more useful mental model for cogitating about this stuff. But I caution you against placing too much weight on the role DNA plays here. I think that seriously downplays the huge, huge weight of cultural expectation and getting these roles reinforced by everyone you deal with every day, without end and with damn few exceptions.
I have, in fact, blogged about some of this. The running joke with me and my sons is "princesses don't do x" when we comment on ways in which I behave like a stereotypical man now that we have swapped gender based division of labor roles.
posted by Michele in California at 11:19 AM on August 1, 2015 [14 favorites]
I both agree that some gender differences are coded into our genes and that gender roles growing out of division of labor is a more useful mental model for cogitating about this stuff. But I caution you against placing too much weight on the role DNA plays here. I think that seriously downplays the huge, huge weight of cultural expectation and getting these roles reinforced by everyone you deal with every day, without end and with damn few exceptions.
I have, in fact, blogged about some of this. The running joke with me and my sons is "princesses don't do x" when we comment on ways in which I behave like a stereotypical man now that we have swapped gender based division of labor roles.
posted by Michele in California at 11:19 AM on August 1, 2015 [14 favorites]
What I am labeling "The Pizza Wars" tied very nicely into a conversation I had with my friend B this morning. She is having a male friend visit from out of town and the new man has different food likes/dislikes from the husband. So imagine the amount of recipe reconfiguration and the runs to the grocery store and the juggling in her head as she tries to reconcile these two diets (A likes garbanzos, B won't touch garbonzos, I wonder how A will feel if I substitute kidney beans.) Of course her preferences are of no importance and she hardly acknowledges her own likes/dislikes because that would really complicate things.
I go through the same thing when my daughter stays with us. Husband wants a cheese bacon burger with oven fries for lunch. Daughter wants a burger but no fries or bacon with a side of fruit. Maybe she wants cheese-- she'll let me know. What do I want? Who cares? I'll just throw a salad together at the last minute because it is too much effort to think about.
I think this is why mamas so often get labeled as martyrs. We eat the leftovers. We don't demand to eat our favorite things. We make sure everyone else gets their food hot and spiced to their liking. If there are not enough chairs, we'll just eat our sandwich standing up and don't worry about us, we are fine.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:24 AM on August 1, 2015 [22 favorites]
I go through the same thing when my daughter stays with us. Husband wants a cheese bacon burger with oven fries for lunch. Daughter wants a burger but no fries or bacon with a side of fruit. Maybe she wants cheese-- she'll let me know. What do I want? Who cares? I'll just throw a salad together at the last minute because it is too much effort to think about.
I think this is why mamas so often get labeled as martyrs. We eat the leftovers. We don't demand to eat our favorite things. We make sure everyone else gets their food hot and spiced to their liking. If there are not enough chairs, we'll just eat our sandwich standing up and don't worry about us, we are fine.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:24 AM on August 1, 2015 [22 favorites]
I think this is why mamas so often get labeled as martyrs. We eat the leftovers. We don't demand to eat our favorite things. We make sure everyone else gets their food hot and spiced to their liking. If there are not enough chairs, we'll just eat our sandwich standing up and don't worry about us, we are fine.
I can't remember where I first read it, but I remember reading a story or article about a family of five in which the mother would roast a chicken and always ate the chicken back, claiming (improbably) that she liked chicken backs so that everyone else could always have their favorite. (I found this page on Chicken Back Syndrome , though it's not where I first read about it.)
And yeah, that narrowing of options, often to the point of not really having any options, is why the "All my married life that is the only pizza we can order" resonated with me so much. I think it's lovely for people to be looking out for others in their family or at dinner or wherever, as long as that gets reciprocated. It's when one person is supposed to be endlessly giving and everyone else is endlessly taking that it's just really unsustainable.
posted by jaguar at 1:00 PM on August 1, 2015 [22 favorites]
I can't remember where I first read it, but I remember reading a story or article about a family of five in which the mother would roast a chicken and always ate the chicken back, claiming (improbably) that she liked chicken backs so that everyone else could always have their favorite. (I found this page on Chicken Back Syndrome , though it's not where I first read about it.)
And yeah, that narrowing of options, often to the point of not really having any options, is why the "All my married life that is the only pizza we can order" resonated with me so much. I think it's lovely for people to be looking out for others in their family or at dinner or wherever, as long as that gets reciprocated. It's when one person is supposed to be endlessly giving and everyone else is endlessly taking that it's just really unsustainable.
posted by jaguar at 1:00 PM on August 1, 2015 [22 favorites]
Thread title should be changed to "Where's My Pizza?"
Or at least put Pizza in the tags. :)
posted by JanetLand at 1:22 PM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Or at least put Pizza in the tags. :)
posted by JanetLand at 1:22 PM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
that narrowing of options, often to the point of not really having any options
Shades of Jean Shepherd's "A Christmas Story": "My mother had not had a hot meal for herself in 15 years."
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:19 PM on August 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
Shades of Jean Shepherd's "A Christmas Story": "My mother had not had a hot meal for herself in 15 years."
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:19 PM on August 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
How many people shared this link (or related MeFi links) with friends, whether in person or via social media?
How many partners, when asked to read it, actually read it?
How many times has this thread made a tangible difference in how a commenter acts/speaks/thinks IRL?
And, for better or for worse, how many decisions taken and lives changed?
posted by infini at 2:41 PM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
How many partners, when asked to read it, actually read it?
How many times has this thread made a tangible difference in how a commenter acts/speaks/thinks IRL?
And, for better or for worse, how many decisions taken and lives changed?
posted by infini at 2:41 PM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind, the answer is blowin' in the wind...
posted by infini at 2:42 PM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 2:42 PM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Apologies if this has already been posted, but did you all see Roxane Gay's mention of emotional labor in the NYT?
Often, when I write about race or gender, people offer apologies.
They say, I apologize for my fellow white people.
They say, I apologize for my fellow men.
I understand this desire to say, “We are not all like that,” or, “I wish the world were a better place.”
Sometimes, saying sorry is, at least, saying something. It is acknowledging wrongs that need to be addressed.
These apologies, however, also place an emotional burden on the recipient. You ask the marginalized to participate in the caretaking of your emotions. You ask them to do the emotional labor of helping you face the world as it truly is.
posted by thetortoise at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2015 [33 favorites]
Often, when I write about race or gender, people offer apologies.
They say, I apologize for my fellow white people.
They say, I apologize for my fellow men.
I understand this desire to say, “We are not all like that,” or, “I wish the world were a better place.”
Sometimes, saying sorry is, at least, saying something. It is acknowledging wrongs that need to be addressed.
These apologies, however, also place an emotional burden on the recipient. You ask the marginalized to participate in the caretaking of your emotions. You ask them to do the emotional labor of helping you face the world as it truly is.
posted by thetortoise at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2015 [33 favorites]
I flipped my "Social Justice Kittens" calendar to the new month today and found this picture waiting for August. You will all be able to find my hut on Crone Island easily because I will have this made into a flag, which I will be flying over my hut.
posted by Stacey at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2015 [28 favorites]
I am WAY behind because I had to spend the last 2 days actually getting stuff done at my job. However, I was reading Dwell, and looking at the adds for charming, modern outbuildings. They are billed as "artist studio, man cave, something, blah, foo, etc." and I think we need to start making Crone Hut a thing like man cave. As this thread and Virginia Woolf have well and thoroughly established, women are the ones who need a quiet, personalized space to get away from things.
My fascination with Cabin Porn comes from that impulse. When I look at them now I think Crone Hut.
Although I hate the name Cabin Porn.
posted by jeoc at 4:45 PM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
My fascination with Cabin Porn comes from that impulse. When I look at them now I think Crone Hut.
Although I hate the name Cabin Porn.
posted by jeoc at 4:45 PM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
Actually, I recently read an article about "she sheds." (I couldn't remember exactly what the cutesy term was, and was googling 'fem shed' and 'lady shed.' Obviously "crone hut" is a term that is vastly superior to any of those. )
posted by shirobara at 5:11 PM on August 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by shirobara at 5:11 PM on August 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
Woolf Room.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:15 PM on August 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:15 PM on August 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
Woolf Den?
posted by Miko at 6:00 PM on August 1, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Miko at 6:00 PM on August 1, 2015 [17 favorites]
A Room of One's Crone.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:03 PM on August 1, 2015 [47 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:03 PM on August 1, 2015 [47 favorites]
I think this is why mamas so often get labeled as martyrs. We eat the leftovers. We don't demand to eat our favorite things. We make sure everyone else gets their food hot and spiced to their liking. If there are not enough chairs, we'll just eat our sandwich standing up and don't worry about us, we are fine.
Well, until we realized that we aren't actually required to be that way, and started speaking up, anyway.
Pizza at my house tonight, it's Younger Monster and me. The husband is working at the winery, I am plain old working. I have a Detroit style deep dish with ham an mushrooms and extra cheese. Younger Monster has double pepperoni. We are both content with exactly what we want, with nobody else fussing about "not my favorite".
posted by MissySedai at 6:52 PM on August 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
Well, until we realized that we aren't actually required to be that way, and started speaking up, anyway.
Pizza at my house tonight, it's Younger Monster and me. The husband is working at the winery, I am plain old working. I have a Detroit style deep dish with ham an mushrooms and extra cheese. Younger Monster has double pepperoni. We are both content with exactly what we want, with nobody else fussing about "not my favorite".
posted by MissySedai at 6:52 PM on August 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
I dunno guys I think we might want to just go with the Red Tent.
posted by bq at 7:00 PM on August 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:00 PM on August 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
My son's girlfriend frequently shares Humans of New York thingies on her Facebook, and I particularly liked today's:
"When I was working on my doctorate, I discovered on the last day that my thesis was ten pages short, and he left his own office to run whatever errands I needed. He didn't even have a car. He took a rickshaw. I had a dream when I was deciding whether or not to marry him. I was falling through the air, but I didn't feel any fear, because I knew that he would catch me."
posted by mythical anthropomorphic amphibian at 7:03 PM on August 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
"When I was working on my doctorate, I discovered on the last day that my thesis was ten pages short, and he left his own office to run whatever errands I needed. He didn't even have a car. He took a rickshaw. I had a dream when I was deciding whether or not to marry him. I was falling through the air, but I didn't feel any fear, because I knew that he would catch me."
posted by mythical anthropomorphic amphibian at 7:03 PM on August 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
So today I hung out with my sister (single mom) and her daughter; I love them both very much.
Part of conversation was that my niece had finished driver's ed, and will be up for her license soon.
I recalled that when I took driver's ed in the late 80's (because I am an Old), my instructor had made some incorrect point about discrimination. I don't even remember what it was, but I objected. (Btw this was in the car during driving instruction w/3 students at a time). He told me that I shouldn't act so smart, or no one would marry me.
At the time I thought it amusingly sexist. I did not make an issue of it.
If someone said this to my brilliant niece now I would cheerfully disembowel them (I am a surgeon, I could do it).
I am still single, I can't call it a coincidence but I am satisfied.
posted by maryrussell at 7:05 PM on August 1, 2015 [27 favorites]
Part of conversation was that my niece had finished driver's ed, and will be up for her license soon.
I recalled that when I took driver's ed in the late 80's (because I am an Old), my instructor had made some incorrect point about discrimination. I don't even remember what it was, but I objected. (Btw this was in the car during driving instruction w/3 students at a time). He told me that I shouldn't act so smart, or no one would marry me.
At the time I thought it amusingly sexist. I did not make an issue of it.
If someone said this to my brilliant niece now I would cheerfully disembowel them (I am a surgeon, I could do it).
I am still single, I can't call it a coincidence but I am satisfied.
posted by maryrussell at 7:05 PM on August 1, 2015 [27 favorites]
Article in the New York Times today about RBF or Resting Bitch Face seemed very appropriate to this thread: "When a man looks stern, or serious, or grumpy, it’s simply the default,” said Rachel Simmons, an author and leadership consultant at Smith College. “We don’t inherently judge the moodiness of a male face. But as women, we are almost expected to put on a smile. So if we don’t, it’s deemed ‘bitchy.’ ”
posted by Athanassiel at 7:50 PM on August 1, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by Athanassiel at 7:50 PM on August 1, 2015 [21 favorites]
He told me that I shouldn't act so smart, or no one would marry me.
My brother said something like that to me once. The only thing that kept it from hurting as much was the 15 years and 8 guys worth of experience I had as proof that sometimes guys really did like opinionated women, thank you very much, so I knew he was wrong.
My brother may wonder sometimes why I sometimes seem so reserved around him. I'm not particularly interested in spelling it out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:10 PM on August 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
My brother said something like that to me once. The only thing that kept it from hurting as much was the 15 years and 8 guys worth of experience I had as proof that sometimes guys really did like opinionated women, thank you very much, so I knew he was wrong.
My brother may wonder sometimes why I sometimes seem so reserved around him. I'm not particularly interested in spelling it out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:10 PM on August 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's the thread that launched a thousand 'ships and wrecked a thousand 'ships, member- and relation-, respectively.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:17 PM on August 1, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:17 PM on August 1, 2015 [23 favorites]
Trojan Horse of Metafilter threads
(I am a surgeon, I could do it)
:D
posted by infini at 2:05 AM on August 2, 2015
(I am a surgeon, I could do it)
:D
posted by infini at 2:05 AM on August 2, 2015
(APPARENTLY I HAVE MORE THINGS TO SAY.)
There's a poem I keep coming back & back to in light of the stories being shared, and in light of the demand that we always do more of this work:
Whether I form important and defining features of your internal landscape is about you, not about me; and if all you actually care about is that I exist for you to walk on...
(Something else I'm mulling over: "I thought about getting you flowers, but I didn't". Circumstances under which I'd actually be completely okay with that: "I know you have allergies but I didn't know or couldn't remember which flowers are safe", "I know you have concerns about the economic ethics of cut flowers", "I know that sometimes dealing with composting them is difficult for you and I can't guarantee I'll be at your place at a point suitable for handling it." Basically ANYTHING, actually, that means that the "I thought about it" involved actually thinking about it, and me as an individual, rather than "laydeez like flowers amirite". Just give me anything, anything at all, that indicates that you think I'm autonomous and have my own interiority, and that I'm important enough to you that you'll think about me and how to make my life better even when I'm not around.)
posted by kaberett at 4:58 AM on August 2, 2015 [58 favorites]
There's a poem I keep coming back & back to in light of the stories being shared, and in light of the demand that we always do more of this work:
After the End of It& in re dbr's comment some time ago, feat.
You gave and gave,
and now you say you're poor.
I'm in your debt, you say,
and there's no way to repay you
but by my giving more.
Your pound of flesh is what you must have?
Here's what I've saved.
This sip of wine is yours,
this sieve of laughter. Yours,
too, these broken haloes
from my cigarette, these coals
that flicker when the salt wind howls
and the letter box blinks like a loud
eyelid over the empty floor.
I'll send this, too, this gale between rains,
this wild day. Its cold so cold
I want to break it into panes
like new ice on a pond; then pay it
pain by pain to your account.
Let it freeze us both into some numb country!
Giving and taking might be the same there.
A future of measurement and blame
gone in a few bitter minutes.
Anne Stevenson
Spoiler alert, though: The reason he's not listening to you isn't because you're not good or worthy, it isn't because you're a nag, it isn't because you're failing at being a woman, it isn't because you're crazy. The reason he's not listening to you is because HE DOESN'T CARE. He just doesn't. Your pain and discomfort is not important enough to him for him to stop doing the things that hurt you, even if not doing those things would make his own life easier.-- some of the thing also, right, is that Intent Is Not Magic. This is emphatically not the same thing as intent being, in all cases and across the board, irrelevant; but cf the thread about buying you flowers... but I didn't -- in terms of one particular ex, I absolutely believe that he cared (and cares!) very, very deeply about my health and my well-being and my life expectancy and my comfort and my happiness. But him caring was irrelevant, because he didn't care enough to remember that my severe tobacco smoke allergy meant that he needed to not smoke for 24 hours before seeing me in order for me to not end up housebound for a week because breathing hurt too much for me to walk post-exposure. He did me permanent lung damage, and he's miserable about it, but how much he cared is just absolutely, entirely irrelevant to the point that he kept on doing it and, in the end, refused to quit to make sure he'd never do it again.
Whether I form important and defining features of your internal landscape is about you, not about me; and if all you actually care about is that I exist for you to walk on...
(Something else I'm mulling over: "I thought about getting you flowers, but I didn't". Circumstances under which I'd actually be completely okay with that: "I know you have allergies but I didn't know or couldn't remember which flowers are safe", "I know you have concerns about the economic ethics of cut flowers", "I know that sometimes dealing with composting them is difficult for you and I can't guarantee I'll be at your place at a point suitable for handling it." Basically ANYTHING, actually, that means that the "I thought about it" involved actually thinking about it, and me as an individual, rather than "laydeez like flowers amirite". Just give me anything, anything at all, that indicates that you think I'm autonomous and have my own interiority, and that I'm important enough to you that you'll think about me and how to make my life better even when I'm not around.)
posted by kaberett at 4:58 AM on August 2, 2015 [58 favorites]
Just give me anything, anything at all, that indicates that you think I'm autonomous and have my own interiority, and that I'm important enough to you that you'll think about me and how to make my life better even when I'm not around.
YES. Demonstrate through your words and actions that you have a mental model of me as a whole, autonomous person, deserving of the same rights, privileges, and kindnesses (etc.) as you are.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:23 AM on August 2, 2015 [43 favorites]
YES. Demonstrate through your words and actions that you have a mental model of me as a whole, autonomous person, deserving of the same rights, privileges, and kindnesses (etc.) as you are.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:23 AM on August 2, 2015 [43 favorites]
Yes! My goodness! Yes, "Just give me anything, anything at all, that indicates that you think I'm autonomous and have my own interiority, and that I'm important enough to you that you'll think about me and how to make my life better even when I'm not around," yes, "Demonstrate through your words and actions that you have a mental model of me as a whole, autonomous person, deserving of the same rights, privileges, and kindnesses (etc.) as you are."
Yes, you guys have found the perfect distillation of the problem. And kaberett, you only just joined yesterday.
The Thread is a marvel. I'm starting to get almost religious feelings about it.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:43 AM on August 2, 2015 [25 favorites]
Yes, you guys have found the perfect distillation of the problem. And kaberett, you only just joined yesterday.
The Thread is a marvel. I'm starting to get almost religious feelings about it.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:43 AM on August 2, 2015 [25 favorites]
Article in the New York Times today about RBF or Resting Bitch Face seemed very appropriate to this thread: "When a man looks stern, or serious, or grumpy, it’s simply the default,” said Rachel Simmons, an author and leadership consultant at Smith College. “We don’t inherently judge the moodiness of a male face. But as women, we are almost expected to put on a smile. So if we don’t, it’s deemed ‘bitchy.’ ”
*big huge lifetime of a sigh*
This whole thing has been so much a part of my life. For a good portion of it I had no idea what it was or that it was going on. I would always get asked if I was okay, if something was wrong. Why are you so glum. You need to chill. You look angry, Smile etc etc.
NO THIS IS MY THINKING FACE. Really that's all it is. IT's my freaking neutral, just doing work, actively listening, contemplating, just hanging, relaxed, shopping and doing whatever face. It's my deep thought face! It also is my serious thought and conversation face because why the hell should I be fucking smiling when it's serious. Serious does not equal bitchy!
This actually caused a lot on inward reflection in trying to figure out why I apparently was projecting this angry sort of bitchiness when I wasn't angry.
When I finally became aware of RBF it was liberating to a degree because it at least absolved me from all sorts of 'what's wrong with me and what should I fix' work but it also meant that I needed to learn to be aware of situations where it would be important to not have my expression convey something that wasn't actually happening because of other's perception.
I have actually spent a good amount of time practicing a relaxed with a slight smile sort of expression. Consciously making it so that it becomes more comfortable and easier to keep up when I need to have a more relaxed, neutral expression. I call it my sitting in a meeting listening and thinking face or my 'I'm in a social situation where people don't know me that well' face.
Never thought of in an emotional labour context before but really it is. It's something I've found I have to do and be aware of with regard to other peoples emotional response and perceptions in situations where I've decided it matters. Plus consciously doing the modified face is actual physical work because dammit my totally relaxed, I'm okay, just existing here face doesn't like to look smiley or happy enough or whatever the heck it's apparently supposed to look like.
I'm renaming my face now though. It's not RFB or the like. It's now just my Crone face.
posted by Jalliah at 5:50 AM on August 2, 2015 [38 favorites]
*big huge lifetime of a sigh*
This whole thing has been so much a part of my life. For a good portion of it I had no idea what it was or that it was going on. I would always get asked if I was okay, if something was wrong. Why are you so glum. You need to chill. You look angry, Smile etc etc.
NO THIS IS MY THINKING FACE. Really that's all it is. IT's my freaking neutral, just doing work, actively listening, contemplating, just hanging, relaxed, shopping and doing whatever face. It's my deep thought face! It also is my serious thought and conversation face because why the hell should I be fucking smiling when it's serious. Serious does not equal bitchy!
This actually caused a lot on inward reflection in trying to figure out why I apparently was projecting this angry sort of bitchiness when I wasn't angry.
When I finally became aware of RBF it was liberating to a degree because it at least absolved me from all sorts of 'what's wrong with me and what should I fix' work but it also meant that I needed to learn to be aware of situations where it would be important to not have my expression convey something that wasn't actually happening because of other's perception.
I have actually spent a good amount of time practicing a relaxed with a slight smile sort of expression. Consciously making it so that it becomes more comfortable and easier to keep up when I need to have a more relaxed, neutral expression. I call it my sitting in a meeting listening and thinking face or my 'I'm in a social situation where people don't know me that well' face.
Never thought of in an emotional labour context before but really it is. It's something I've found I have to do and be aware of with regard to other peoples emotional response and perceptions in situations where I've decided it matters. Plus consciously doing the modified face is actual physical work because dammit my totally relaxed, I'm okay, just existing here face doesn't like to look smiley or happy enough or whatever the heck it's apparently supposed to look like.
I'm renaming my face now though. It's not RFB or the like. It's now just my Crone face.
posted by Jalliah at 5:50 AM on August 2, 2015 [38 favorites]
I think the really sad thing (for me, right now) is that putting that into words has - well. Recognising that the partner who noticed I like blueberry yoghurt but can't afford it regularly for myself, so just... quietly and unassumingly had it in their fridge whenever I stayed over, was doing emotional labour (of a kind I find difficult*)? That's why I felt like I didn't deserve that relationship. That's why I felt like I wasn't pulling my weight. Despite the fact that I was investing significant time in helping my partner with misc life organisation and health, and getting to sleep at a sensible time and eating regularly while depressed, and finding a less shitty doctor, and that I was being thoughtful about their other relationships up to and including spending *hours* helping someone important to them find a suitable wheelchair (because I knew it would make my partner happy to have this third party happy, and it's an area where I have expertise and experience) -- despite being a vocal, strident feminist & survivor -- I still felt like I wasn't doing enough and I didn't deserve it. I felt like I didn't deserve him popping over the road to get a coffee for himself, and coming back with a dark-chocolate-hazelnut cookie because he knew I liked dark chocolate and hazelnuts because I'd happened to mention it once. I felt like I hadn't earned it.
(I felt, to be honest, like I couldn't ever earn it.)
* I struggle enormously with quietly and unassumingly Making The Environment A Little Bit Better, because if I ever did anything of the kind without getting explicit, detailed permission IN TRIPLICATE for it first, my terrible ex would scream at me and then sulk about it, because surprising him (even just by getting him a thing I thought he'd like, that was so small and inconsequential it didn't seem worth checking in first -- a book we'd both like, on one occasion, for crying out loud!) meant I was ~demanding a particular response from him~ and it was ~centering me~.
posted by kaberett at 5:57 AM on August 2, 2015 [35 favorites]
(I felt, to be honest, like I couldn't ever earn it.)
* I struggle enormously with quietly and unassumingly Making The Environment A Little Bit Better, because if I ever did anything of the kind without getting explicit, detailed permission IN TRIPLICATE for it first, my terrible ex would scream at me and then sulk about it, because surprising him (even just by getting him a thing I thought he'd like, that was so small and inconsequential it didn't seem worth checking in first -- a book we'd both like, on one occasion, for crying out loud!) meant I was ~demanding a particular response from him~ and it was ~centering me~.
posted by kaberett at 5:57 AM on August 2, 2015 [35 favorites]
Terrible exes ruin a lot of Nice Things, don't they? Boo to terrible exes, and all of the blueberry yoghurt to you!
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:02 AM on August 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:02 AM on August 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
You just did it again:
"...getting him a thing I thought he'd like... meant I was ~demanding a particular response from him~ and it was ~centering me~."
That is the exact description of a problem I've been having--except nobody had the simple decency to be terrible like your ex and put it into words.
I.O.U. a vat of blueberry yoghurt. Come to my cronehut and I will make sure you have all you can eat, breakfastlunch'n'dinner.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:07 AM on August 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
"...getting him a thing I thought he'd like... meant I was ~demanding a particular response from him~ and it was ~centering me~."
That is the exact description of a problem I've been having--except nobody had the simple decency to be terrible like your ex and put it into words.
I.O.U. a vat of blueberry yoghurt. Come to my cronehut and I will make sure you have all you can eat, breakfastlunch'n'dinner.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:07 AM on August 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
I got my Terrible Ex a Kinderchocolade egg once. He got angry because apparently I had not thought about his wishes at all. Except that I'd only been with him for a few weeks, and we had never talked about Kinderchocolade eggs, and I had no idea of his opinion of them.
But I Should Have Known, and the fact that I did not, trumped my wish to do a silly little friendly thing for him.
Of course it's important to think about the other person's likes and wishes. But when we're still getting to know them and have very little information to go on, we may slip up and it shouldn't be a big deal. If he'd just said 'Thank you, but I don't actually like those' I would have said 'Oh, sorry, I won't buy them for you again' it would have been over and done with.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:16 AM on August 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
But I Should Have Known, and the fact that I did not, trumped my wish to do a silly little friendly thing for him.
Of course it's important to think about the other person's likes and wishes. But when we're still getting to know them and have very little information to go on, we may slip up and it shouldn't be a big deal. If he'd just said 'Thank you, but I don't actually like those' I would have said 'Oh, sorry, I won't buy them for you again' it would have been over and done with.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:16 AM on August 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Not liking Kinder Eggs is itself grounds for DTMFA even if they're not an asshole about it, just for future reference
posted by billiebee at 6:47 AM on August 2, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 6:47 AM on August 2, 2015 [21 favorites]
Article in the New York Times today about RBF or Resting Bitch Face seemed very appropriate to this thread: "When a man looks stern, or serious, or grumpy, it’s simply the default,” said Rachel Simmons, an author and leadership consultant at Smith College. “We don’t inherently judge the moodiness of a male face. But as women, we are almost expected to put on a smile. So if we don’t, it’s deemed ‘bitchy.’ ”
I actually learned over time to continually have a faint crease upward in the corners of my mouth because my resting face looks like I'm suicidally depressed. This is the case even at the rare times that is not how I feel. When I am home and don't have to do it, just letting my face fall into its natural at rest pose it is so relaxing. It seems like a tiny amount of work to change my face for the consumption of other people but the volume of effort only becomes obvious when I get to stop.
posted by winna at 7:29 AM on August 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
I actually learned over time to continually have a faint crease upward in the corners of my mouth because my resting face looks like I'm suicidally depressed. This is the case even at the rare times that is not how I feel. When I am home and don't have to do it, just letting my face fall into its natural at rest pose it is so relaxing. It seems like a tiny amount of work to change my face for the consumption of other people but the volume of effort only becomes obvious when I get to stop.
posted by winna at 7:29 AM on August 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
Anyone who works customer service over the phone knows what having a smile on your face and in your voice means: You're putting on a face to make someone else feel better about the terrible thing they're calling to complain to you about or the problem they want you to solve or they need something done quickly and they can't figure out how to do it themselves.
I think that's an "A-ha!" moment for me in understanding more about what Emotional Labor is and why it absolutely should be something valued and treated as real work. Because people do get paid for this, and they do it for hours every day, and other people think it's okay to treat them like shit because corporations are terrible, call centers are terrible, nobody cares about personalized service anymore, etc.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:09 AM on August 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
I think that's an "A-ha!" moment for me in understanding more about what Emotional Labor is and why it absolutely should be something valued and treated as real work. Because people do get paid for this, and they do it for hours every day, and other people think it's okay to treat them like shit because corporations are terrible, call centers are terrible, nobody cares about personalized service anymore, etc.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:09 AM on August 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
My mother has a very grouchy-looking resting expression and I think is unaware of it. As a young woman I observed that we got treated very differently by customer service people--we're both very polite and pleasant; the difference, I thought, is that I try also to look pleasant. And once having made that observation, determined to make further efforts to smile and unfurrow my brow when dealing with people. I find it even helps to smile when talking on the phone. It takes a lot of extra energy, energy that men get to spend on other things while STILL getting better treatment. It's degrading to know that I need to do this in order to get what I want, or avoid getting what I don't want, and other people don't have to do it. It's a like a "yassah" for women.
And then writing this, I had the thought that it's not all bad, it's kind of good for regulating your own grouchiness, because the physical act of smiling does often lead to mood improvement. But then, hmm, is that why they're always fucking telling us to smile?
posted by HotToddy at 8:35 AM on August 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
And then writing this, I had the thought that it's not all bad, it's kind of good for regulating your own grouchiness, because the physical act of smiling does often lead to mood improvement. But then, hmm, is that why they're always fucking telling us to smile?
posted by HotToddy at 8:35 AM on August 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
aw, mythical anthropomorphic amphibian! I also thought about this thread when I saw that HONY photo. I hope they're as good for each other as they seem to be from that story.
posted by wintersweet at 8:48 AM on August 2, 2015
posted by wintersweet at 8:48 AM on August 2, 2015
It's the thread that launched a thousand 'ships and wrecked a thousand 'ships, member- and relation-, respectively.
Wrecked for whom, exactly? Whiny man-babies whose partners have realized that they aren't actually required to put up with man-baby bullshit, because women are actual people deserving of respect? I'm more than OK with that.
I've been calling the husband out on his shit for YEARS. He's capable of learning, and indeed has learned and gotten better. He admits to being lazy and selfish, and genuinely does try not to be. I am so happy to see so many women saying "I'm done with this shit. Grow the fuck up and pull your emotional weight." The partners worth keeping will step up.
Anyone who works customer service over the phone knows what having a smile on your face and in your voice means: You're putting on a face to make someone else feel better about the terrible thing they're calling to complain to you about or the problem they want you to solve or they need something done quickly and they can't figure out how to do it themselves.
Technical Support here! Yep, it's an acting job, and it takes a LOT out of you. I don't think the husband quite understood until he took a sales position that requires a lot of phone time and coddling his clients. "Oh, I'm SO wrung out! It's hard to be nice to people you don't actually care about!"
Arched eyebrow from me. Cue light bulb. "How have you done this for YEARS?"
(A big difference for me here is that I actually DO care about my customers. They are coming to me because something that is very important to them is not working, I genuinely want to solve the problem AND teach them how to solve it themselves in the future, so they don't panic that the device they spent $700 on is permanently hosed. It is satisfying work, but I am exhausted even so.)
posted by MissySedai at 10:32 AM on August 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
Wrecked for whom, exactly? Whiny man-babies whose partners have realized that they aren't actually required to put up with man-baby bullshit, because women are actual people deserving of respect? I'm more than OK with that.
I've been calling the husband out on his shit for YEARS. He's capable of learning, and indeed has learned and gotten better. He admits to being lazy and selfish, and genuinely does try not to be. I am so happy to see so many women saying "I'm done with this shit. Grow the fuck up and pull your emotional weight." The partners worth keeping will step up.
Anyone who works customer service over the phone knows what having a smile on your face and in your voice means: You're putting on a face to make someone else feel better about the terrible thing they're calling to complain to you about or the problem they want you to solve or they need something done quickly and they can't figure out how to do it themselves.
Technical Support here! Yep, it's an acting job, and it takes a LOT out of you. I don't think the husband quite understood until he took a sales position that requires a lot of phone time and coddling his clients. "Oh, I'm SO wrung out! It's hard to be nice to people you don't actually care about!"
Arched eyebrow from me. Cue light bulb. "How have you done this for YEARS?"
(A big difference for me here is that I actually DO care about my customers. They are coming to me because something that is very important to them is not working, I genuinely want to solve the problem AND teach them how to solve it themselves in the future, so they don't panic that the device they spent $700 on is permanently hosed. It is satisfying work, but I am exhausted even so.)
posted by MissySedai at 10:32 AM on August 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
Yeah, I only have to be a Helpful Customer Service Person one day a week right now, and I genuinely like my workplace, like the things I'm selling, am an extrovert who generally enjoys talking to strangers, etc, so it's not usually not too much of a hardship. Though I am still generally pretty wiped by the end of the day.
This week I had to do my Friday at the shop after an absolute bitch of a week, when I was still angry and upset about some of the things that had happened and weren't yet resolved. It was easily twice as draining as a normal day. Acting like things are okay when they aren't is exhausting.
posted by nonasuch at 11:06 AM on August 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
This week I had to do my Friday at the shop after an absolute bitch of a week, when I was still angry and upset about some of the things that had happened and weren't yet resolved. It was easily twice as draining as a normal day. Acting like things are okay when they aren't is exhausting.
posted by nonasuch at 11:06 AM on August 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ha ha, I just realized how much one of my teaching jobs is basically customer support.
posted by wintersweet at 11:14 AM on August 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 11:14 AM on August 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
So last night I was at a friend's wedding reception, and one male friend failed to get the hint when I messaged him on Facebook halfway through: "Where are you?" "I'm walking downtown, where are you?" So other friends, male and female, messaged him as well, and he eventually showed up toward the end. And so we were talking about how he forgot, and ribbing him about it, and he suggested that his girlfriend, who was not there but who always takes care of tracking calendar events, had neglected to remind him about this important event in his long-time friend's life.
I perked up and got a slow Cheshire grin at that point. Aha! "So your girlfriend keeps track of the calendar, and she forgot about this?" Yeah. "Why don't you keep a calendar?" Well, she likes doing it, does it better than me, etc. "But why don't you just set up a Google Calendar? You have a smartphone like the rest of us; it would be so easy, and then it would just remind you." I have a calendar I have to check at work, and I don't want to do that when I'm not working. "Oh! So maintaining the calendar is work! Work that your girlfriend does for you! You realize that's emotional labor, and that you are totally benefiting from the patriarchy here, right?" Gay male friend chimes in: "You white male! You are so benefiting from the patriarchy!" Friend who was late looks sheepish and kind of sadconfused: "But I cook more than she does...although that's because I told her I don't like her cooking..." We all just rolled our eyes.
I was like, "Look, we're happy you're here! I'm glad you came! Yay! But think about this. Now go say hi to our friends who just got married."
posted by limeonaire at 12:51 PM on August 2, 2015 [31 favorites]
I perked up and got a slow Cheshire grin at that point. Aha! "So your girlfriend keeps track of the calendar, and she forgot about this?" Yeah. "Why don't you keep a calendar?" Well, she likes doing it, does it better than me, etc. "But why don't you just set up a Google Calendar? You have a smartphone like the rest of us; it would be so easy, and then it would just remind you." I have a calendar I have to check at work, and I don't want to do that when I'm not working. "Oh! So maintaining the calendar is work! Work that your girlfriend does for you! You realize that's emotional labor, and that you are totally benefiting from the patriarchy here, right?" Gay male friend chimes in: "You white male! You are so benefiting from the patriarchy!" Friend who was late looks sheepish and kind of sadconfused: "But I cook more than she does...although that's because I told her I don't like her cooking..." We all just rolled our eyes.
I was like, "Look, we're happy you're here! I'm glad you came! Yay! But think about this. Now go say hi to our friends who just got married."
posted by limeonaire at 12:51 PM on August 2, 2015 [31 favorites]
winna and HotToddy above talked about the work they've done to get good responses from customer service, retail counter people, coworkers, etc. It reminds me of this column, on the costumes that must be worn in order to be respected and treated well by those in authority.
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 12:54 PM on August 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 12:54 PM on August 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Please do not compare things to slavery that are manifestly not slavery. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:30 PM on August 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:30 PM on August 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
+$5 here. This thread is awesome. There's a thread elseweb that I've been calling "the best thread on the internet" for almost a decade, and which I think I now have to refer to as "the second best thread on the internet." If this is how y'all party on MetaFilter, I am *in*.
This has been fascinating and enlightening and a phenomenally productive conversation. I didn't expect to have the reactions I did and I expect I'll be chewing on them for a while. My heart goes out to... basically all of you. If y'all build some kind of men-allowed pier on Crone Island, I happily volunteer to bring supplies every now and again.
I don't have much to add in the way of personal anecdotes, but there is a pretty neat short story which erratic meatsack reminded me of: The Day Dad Made Toast, by Sarah Durkee. It's a short-story version of the trope "mom does all the work all the time and gets no thanks, dad shows up occasionally and lifts a single finger and wild cheering occurs." I grew up on the album the audio version is in, and it's even less subtle than the written version, and read by Robin Williams to boot. (Though the written version probably takes less than six minutes to read for most people.) [PDF] [MP3] [album]
posted by adverbly at 2:58 PM on August 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
This has been fascinating and enlightening and a phenomenally productive conversation. I didn't expect to have the reactions I did and I expect I'll be chewing on them for a while. My heart goes out to... basically all of you. If y'all build some kind of men-allowed pier on Crone Island, I happily volunteer to bring supplies every now and again.
I don't have much to add in the way of personal anecdotes, but there is a pretty neat short story which erratic meatsack reminded me of: The Day Dad Made Toast, by Sarah Durkee. It's a short-story version of the trope "mom does all the work all the time and gets no thanks, dad shows up occasionally and lifts a single finger and wild cheering occurs." I grew up on the album the audio version is in, and it's even less subtle than the written version, and read by Robin Williams to boot. (Though the written version probably takes less than six minutes to read for most people.) [PDF] [MP3] [album]
posted by adverbly at 2:58 PM on August 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
*whew!* made it to the end of thread! a long way to get here but worth it, every step. many thanks to all who shared their stories. i've shared this thread with bunches of folks in the last week or so. its existence is doing good work in the world.
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 5:26 PM on August 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 5:26 PM on August 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh darlings! Can you imagine how many words and bouts angst we are going to save now in some Metafilter and AskMe threads?
Instead of fumbling through a miasma of frustration and anguish, we are going to be sitting in a comfy chair, filing our nails and indicating with a small head movement "you want the emotional labour thread. Second door on the right."
posted by Thella at 5:39 PM on August 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
Instead of fumbling through a miasma of frustration and anguish, we are going to be sitting in a comfy chair, filing our nails and indicating with a small head movement "you want the emotional labour thread. Second door on the right."
posted by Thella at 5:39 PM on August 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
Another $5 here.
This thread is deeply useful. Pretty sure I'm going to reread it a bunch of times. It's shedding light on so many things....
Had a discussion with the husband-person about it yesterday, in fact. And then when he wound up in the ER this morning with a medical issue, he thanked me on our way home for making things work when he needed to get to the ER, and being with him there, and picking up his 'script when it was hard for him to walk, and so forth.
Am currently pondering how much "being encouraging" is emotional labor. Mostly in relation to friendships, but there was one particular lover relationship where it did seem that as soon as the person wanted to rant about something, they suddenly remembered how to contact me again. Then again, who knows how much of it was from old scripts I had that said I should always be upbeat and caring and encouraging? One part fit the other like a lock around a key.
Anyhow, I'm here now. This thread is amazing. Glad a friend pointed me to it.
posted by edgelit at 6:46 PM on August 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
This thread is deeply useful. Pretty sure I'm going to reread it a bunch of times. It's shedding light on so many things....
Had a discussion with the husband-person about it yesterday, in fact. And then when he wound up in the ER this morning with a medical issue, he thanked me on our way home for making things work when he needed to get to the ER, and being with him there, and picking up his 'script when it was hard for him to walk, and so forth.
Am currently pondering how much "being encouraging" is emotional labor. Mostly in relation to friendships, but there was one particular lover relationship where it did seem that as soon as the person wanted to rant about something, they suddenly remembered how to contact me again. Then again, who knows how much of it was from old scripts I had that said I should always be upbeat and caring and encouraging? One part fit the other like a lock around a key.
Anyhow, I'm here now. This thread is amazing. Glad a friend pointed me to it.
posted by edgelit at 6:46 PM on August 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
+$5 also (after lurking on and off for the last couple of years) in order to say thank you to everyone who has shared. I was already familiar with the idea of emotional labor, but the stories shared here have been revelatory. Together they have shed a new light on both my past relationships and current singleness, about which I have a newfound tranquility. Thank you for that.
I've also been thinking a great deal over the last couple of weeks as I read this thread* about how the burden of emotional labor plays out at work, with extended family, and in day-to-day interactions on the sidewalk, in shops, etc. A lot of food for thought.
I'll try to come back when I'm a little less tired and a little more cogent to contribute a story or two.
*I propose a new timekeeping system — perhaps BELT, DELT, and PELT (Before, During, and Post Emotional Labor Thread)? — if that's not too much hubris for a newbie.
posted by rafaella gabriela sarsaparilla at 7:25 PM on August 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've also been thinking a great deal over the last couple of weeks as I read this thread* about how the burden of emotional labor plays out at work, with extended family, and in day-to-day interactions on the sidewalk, in shops, etc. A lot of food for thought.
I'll try to come back when I'm a little less tired and a little more cogent to contribute a story or two.
*I propose a new timekeeping system — perhaps BELT, DELT, and PELT (Before, During, and Post Emotional Labor Thread)? — if that's not too much hubris for a newbie.
posted by rafaella gabriela sarsaparilla at 7:25 PM on August 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
sculpin, *gentle hugs* if you want them. That sounds infuriating.
posted by jaguar at 7:49 PM on August 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 7:49 PM on August 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
For days, this thread has not been far from my mind. (Strangely enough, neither has the song 'Gunpowder and Lead'. Coincidence?) The stories and insights contained here have made tears fall, laughter flow, and the blood in my veins boil with fury. Mostly the latter. It's been an enlightening journey through the Blue.
Most of my coworkers are male. And over the years, watching their antics has killed off what minimal desire I'd had for a relationship or kids. Because, well, 'bros before hoes', baby. I get a front-row seat to a LOT of 'don't worry, your shitty behavior is really not that shitty because it's only hurting a chick' rationalizing, whether it's from guys bailing a buddy out of jail after his arrest for stalking and harassment, or buddies offering unlimited support to the guy who got caught cheating on his spouse of fifteen years. Aaaand gave her an STD, to boot. Mind you, these same guys would fly into a frothing rage if said spouse cheated on a bro, or one of them treated another bro with the kind of disrespect they routinely dispense towards the women in their lives.
So many stories here reek of this indifference and contempt. And they fuel the ongoing suspicion that the people I work with every day, even those I'd consider friends and confidants, view me - view ALL women! Everywhere! - through this contempt-tinted lens. For most, it's a tint so slight they don't even know it's there. But every now and then, they'll let something slip out and it's like, Oh, yeah. You guys are key elements of my working and social life, and you play the role most of the time, but when the chips are down, we're all still hoes, not bros, aren't we? And really, I just don't know what to do with that fact anymore. Especially as I get older and, like others upthread, start to wonder what the retirement years are going to look like when these supposed 'friends' are the people with whom I have the strongest social ties.
So, this Crone Island...y'all will allow pets, right?
posted by Lycaon_pictus at 8:08 PM on August 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
Most of my coworkers are male. And over the years, watching their antics has killed off what minimal desire I'd had for a relationship or kids. Because, well, 'bros before hoes', baby. I get a front-row seat to a LOT of 'don't worry, your shitty behavior is really not that shitty because it's only hurting a chick' rationalizing, whether it's from guys bailing a buddy out of jail after his arrest for stalking and harassment, or buddies offering unlimited support to the guy who got caught cheating on his spouse of fifteen years. Aaaand gave her an STD, to boot. Mind you, these same guys would fly into a frothing rage if said spouse cheated on a bro, or one of them treated another bro with the kind of disrespect they routinely dispense towards the women in their lives.
So many stories here reek of this indifference and contempt. And they fuel the ongoing suspicion that the people I work with every day, even those I'd consider friends and confidants, view me - view ALL women! Everywhere! - through this contempt-tinted lens. For most, it's a tint so slight they don't even know it's there. But every now and then, they'll let something slip out and it's like, Oh, yeah. You guys are key elements of my working and social life, and you play the role most of the time, but when the chips are down, we're all still hoes, not bros, aren't we? And really, I just don't know what to do with that fact anymore. Especially as I get older and, like others upthread, start to wonder what the retirement years are going to look like when these supposed 'friends' are the people with whom I have the strongest social ties.
So, this Crone Island...y'all will allow pets, right?
posted by Lycaon_pictus at 8:08 PM on August 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
My husband has thanked me like six times for going ten minutes out of my way to make a stop to pick up a thing for his hobby. Not the picking up (which he also thanked me for), but the going a very small amount out of my way because it added a tiny amount of hassle to my day. I feel like maybe he's been reading.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:37 PM on August 2, 2015 [34 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:37 PM on August 2, 2015 [34 favorites]
OMFG. I think watching their antics has killed off what minimal desire I'd had for a relationship or kids just explained my deep ambivalence about having children within a relationship, coupled with my adequate self-awareness that having kids outside a relationship was not for me. So that's why I'm childless! And I love children, have lots of great friends who are kids, and I am a crone-age career-changer into teaching. It all now makes perfect sense.
posted by Thella at 8:53 PM on August 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Thella at 8:53 PM on August 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
There's a fine line between "petty" and "telling".
As my great-grandmother apparently used to say, and as my Zen teacher now says (there's an interesting conjunction): "How you do anything is how you do everything."
posted by Lexica at 8:56 PM on August 2, 2015 [57 favorites]
As my great-grandmother apparently used to say, and as my Zen teacher now says (there's an interesting conjunction): "How you do anything is how you do everything."
posted by Lexica at 8:56 PM on August 2, 2015 [57 favorites]
Anyone else feel like they have gaslighted themselves over this shite? I certainly do.
posted by Thella at 8:58 PM on August 2, 2015 [48 favorites]
posted by Thella at 8:58 PM on August 2, 2015 [48 favorites]
"How you do anything is how you do everything."
Yes! I actually did learn this from a yoga teacher, but it's been very much echoed in my therapist training and experience, too.
posted by jaguar at 9:38 PM on August 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes! I actually did learn this from a yoga teacher, but it's been very much echoed in my therapist training and experience, too.
posted by jaguar at 9:38 PM on August 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was at a workshop this weekend for my hobby. Most of the participants were men, though there were a few women there. The worst thing I saw that weekend was when I watched several guys foist their problems onto a women friend of mine. Really irrelevant stuff. The workshop was on breeding fish, but one guy felt it necessary to tell her all about his long, tiring business trip overseas that had nothing to do with our shared hobby. Then the guy to the other side of her seemed to take it as his cue he too could join in about personal/work problems. The whole time I'm thinking Jebus H Christ on a stick, we're here to talk fish and because you left your wives and girlfriends home, you're adopting this other person as your "conference wife" to hear your piddly little problems?! She was taking hobby before that.
I don't know why I was spared, and she doesn't buy into feminist theory like I do so I let her be. But none of the men doing this were asking her how she's not been, or really interested in anything she was saying- they just needed someone to do some emotional labor and she was apparently the easy target.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:37 AM on August 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't know why I was spared, and she doesn't buy into feminist theory like I do so I let her be. But none of the men doing this were asking her how she's not been, or really interested in anything she was saying- they just needed someone to do some emotional labor and she was apparently the easy target.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:37 AM on August 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
What's most frustrating is how petty it all is. It's such small potatoes and I bridle at myself for letting it get to me. But then, small potatoes are what our lives are mostly made of -- the caulk guns, the pizza, the potluck dishes, the stuff we carry, all that.
This. The biggest frustration in my relationship with my spouse is this. He sees these irritations as one-off incidents that I need to just move on from and does not acknowledge the cumulative effect that they can have on an individual.
Sculpin, your story of the caulk gun is such a perfect example. In my home it is jars and I can't even begin to adequately express the rage I feel whenever I have to spend an inordinate amount of time opening a jar he has closed too tight, only to hear "Why didn't your just ask me to help you?"
Because you are not always around to do that (I've actually completely abandoned recipes when I could not get the jar open) and when you are, the jar which you closed too tightly is opened on your timetable, not mine.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 2:25 AM on August 3, 2015 [26 favorites]
This. The biggest frustration in my relationship with my spouse is this. He sees these irritations as one-off incidents that I need to just move on from and does not acknowledge the cumulative effect that they can have on an individual.
Sculpin, your story of the caulk gun is such a perfect example. In my home it is jars and I can't even begin to adequately express the rage I feel whenever I have to spend an inordinate amount of time opening a jar he has closed too tight, only to hear "Why didn't your just ask me to help you?"
Because you are not always around to do that (I've actually completely abandoned recipes when I could not get the jar open) and when you are, the jar which you closed too tightly is opened on your timetable, not mine.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 2:25 AM on August 3, 2015 [26 favorites]
I struggle enormously with quietly and unassumingly Making The Environment A Little Bit Better, because if I ever did anything of the kind without getting explicit, detailed permission IN TRIPLICATE for it first, my terrible ex would scream at me and then sulk about it, because surprising him (even just by getting him a thing I thought he'd like, that was so small and inconsequential it didn't seem worth checking in first -- a book we'd both like, on one occasion, for crying out loud!) meant I was ~demanding a particular response from him~ and it was ~centering me~.
Holy shit kaberett. I mean someone please let me know if i'm posting too much in this thread, but this one really stood out to me. A lot of what's in here could be attributed to things that range from shirking work and whining out of doing stuff to sexism, and even stuff as mild as just obliviousness or myopic "woah i never thought about how unfair that is"...
But this is actively malicious. Arguably evil, even. People like him are a net negative force in the world that literally makes it a shittier place by not only gaslighting people, but discouraging them from doing thoughtful things that improve it for people they love. They're sucking love out of the world and discouraging its existence. They're like, cartoon villains.
There's draining someone by not doing your share, and there's shoving their face in to the mud with your boot.
I read this while idly watching a movie and my partner noticed that i actually went "BUH" out loud quitely and tossed me a raised eyebrow. It jumped out at me that much.
Honestly, i place this on the same level as people who like, kick pets for doing minor normal pet things or other totally abusive acts and behavior.
I've seen this kind of weaponized "you're just doing this to make it about you" before but that's inarguably the worst. Just wow, ugh, i'm so sorry you went through that.
posted by emptythought at 3:18 AM on August 3, 2015 [17 favorites]
Holy shit kaberett. I mean someone please let me know if i'm posting too much in this thread, but this one really stood out to me. A lot of what's in here could be attributed to things that range from shirking work and whining out of doing stuff to sexism, and even stuff as mild as just obliviousness or myopic "woah i never thought about how unfair that is"...
But this is actively malicious. Arguably evil, even. People like him are a net negative force in the world that literally makes it a shittier place by not only gaslighting people, but discouraging them from doing thoughtful things that improve it for people they love. They're sucking love out of the world and discouraging its existence. They're like, cartoon villains.
There's draining someone by not doing your share, and there's shoving their face in to the mud with your boot.
I read this while idly watching a movie and my partner noticed that i actually went "BUH" out loud quitely and tossed me a raised eyebrow. It jumped out at me that much.
Honestly, i place this on the same level as people who like, kick pets for doing minor normal pet things or other totally abusive acts and behavior.
I've seen this kind of weaponized "you're just doing this to make it about you" before but that's inarguably the worst. Just wow, ugh, i'm so sorry you went through that.
posted by emptythought at 3:18 AM on August 3, 2015 [17 favorites]
I can't remember how many times I'd had arguments that kind of end with:
Him: I don't get why this matters so much!
Me: Can it not just be that it matters to me, and that's enough?
And it almost never was!
posted by mythical anthropomorphic amphibian at 3:20 AM on August 3, 2015 [58 favorites]
Him: I don't get why this matters so much!
Me: Can it not just be that it matters to me, and that's enough?
And it almost never was!
posted by mythical anthropomorphic amphibian at 3:20 AM on August 3, 2015 [58 favorites]
I said it in another thread here (hah it was the metatalk about the tramp stamp thread), and I laid it out to my husband one night when we were discussing exactly why I wasn't going to accept 'he was just tired' as why I shouldn't get upset about the second time his brother decided 'GA is looking after the kids and I want a nap, so even though she's studying FT and working PT, I'm gonna take the day off and ignore all of that'. It's called a pattern of behaviour. It's called this isn't the first time. It's called if I ignore it and forgive it now it gets called precedent later as to why I shouldn't object then either. It's called blatant fucking disrespect for me, my words, my voice, my work, my body, my life, me.
What I said in the other thread is: "Abusers and assholes want the slate wiped clean, they want to pretend each moment is all new and shiny, and they sure as shit don't want you to look at their behaviour over lengthy periods of time.". I'm sick of letting my partner do this shit, letting my friends, letting my family, do these things because if I speak up I'm a 'nag'. If you talk about meta-issues then you're arguing 'wrong' because you're bringing up the stuff from years ago. Well fuck, son, if you were doing this same damn thing years ago why shouldn't I bring it up? Learn, change, stop stagnating.
That's the thing that gives me hope. My partner learns. He doesn't do the thing again, he doesn't do the same thing just slightly different and wonder why I'm extra-pissed. It still means I'm teacher, but at least there's something changing and lets face it, he does enough mental triage and exposure therapy and withstanding my storms that he has some slack here. Without that hope, and the proof that supports it, I don't know that I'd be able to stand it though.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:31 AM on August 3, 2015 [67 favorites]
What I said in the other thread is: "Abusers and assholes want the slate wiped clean, they want to pretend each moment is all new and shiny, and they sure as shit don't want you to look at their behaviour over lengthy periods of time.". I'm sick of letting my partner do this shit, letting my friends, letting my family, do these things because if I speak up I'm a 'nag'. If you talk about meta-issues then you're arguing 'wrong' because you're bringing up the stuff from years ago. Well fuck, son, if you were doing this same damn thing years ago why shouldn't I bring it up? Learn, change, stop stagnating.
That's the thing that gives me hope. My partner learns. He doesn't do the thing again, he doesn't do the same thing just slightly different and wonder why I'm extra-pissed. It still means I'm teacher, but at least there's something changing and lets face it, he does enough mental triage and exposure therapy and withstanding my storms that he has some slack here. Without that hope, and the proof that supports it, I don't know that I'd be able to stand it though.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:31 AM on August 3, 2015 [67 favorites]
What's most frustrating is how petty it all is. It's such small potatoes and I bridle at myself for letting it get to me. But then, small potatoes are what our lives are mostly made of -- the caulk guns, the pizza, the potluck dishes, the stuff we carry, all that.
From George Eliot's Middlemarch: “...it is in these acts called trivialities that the seeds of joy are forever wasted until men and women look round with haggard faces at the devastation their own waste has made and say the earth bears no harvest of sweetness—calling their denial knowledge.”
posted by JanetLand at 6:36 AM on August 3, 2015 [59 favorites]
From George Eliot's Middlemarch: “...it is in these acts called trivialities that the seeds of joy are forever wasted until men and women look round with haggard faces at the devastation their own waste has made and say the earth bears no harvest of sweetness—calling their denial knowledge.”
posted by JanetLand at 6:36 AM on August 3, 2015 [59 favorites]
JanetLand, you seem to have read it more recently than I--is there a reason I've been thinking about Middlemarch so much since I started with this thread? I don't remember Middlemarch well, but I keep thinking about it, to the degree that I started to wonder which bookshelf or pile I might find it in if I looked. I think many of my aches and pains might be soothed by George Eliot, with her deep, quiet, calm, long gaze.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:21 AM on August 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 7:21 AM on August 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
“But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs.”
― George Eliot, Middlemarch
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:25 AM on August 3, 2015 [39 favorites]
― George Eliot, Middlemarch
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:25 AM on August 3, 2015 [39 favorites]
Wow, geek anachronism, you comment is so great I copied it to my Webnote page with quotes from this thread. It is so on point about the differences in perspective: bad behavior expecting to be forgiven and forgotten as a one-off incident.... and then happening again. And expecting to get a pass as a one-off thing again. But these are just small trivial things, why do you make such big deal out of this? And what kind of person brings up trivial stuff from last month anyway? BECAUSE IT IS A PATTERN THAT'S WHY.
I've been running into this with certain types of people especially recently, and you do start to wonder if you're maybe obsessively nit-picking and looking for problems, like they imply. Maybe it's your fault for being too negative and not allowing people their human foibles.
But if these humans seem unable to incorporate information you've explicitly and repeatedly given them about your opinion on these issues, while at the same time they seem to have no problem remembering minor details about their own interests, or - here's the kicker - the preferences of other people they are currently more interested in... I see this happening all the time even in so called "happy" couples, and I genuinely have no idea how people can handle it, such blatant lack of interest, lack of concern, if not outright disrespect.
posted by Ender's Friend at 7:39 AM on August 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
I've been running into this with certain types of people especially recently, and you do start to wonder if you're maybe obsessively nit-picking and looking for problems, like they imply. Maybe it's your fault for being too negative and not allowing people their human foibles.
But if these humans seem unable to incorporate information you've explicitly and repeatedly given them about your opinion on these issues, while at the same time they seem to have no problem remembering minor details about their own interests, or - here's the kicker - the preferences of other people they are currently more interested in... I see this happening all the time even in so called "happy" couples, and I genuinely have no idea how people can handle it, such blatant lack of interest, lack of concern, if not outright disrespect.
posted by Ender's Friend at 7:39 AM on August 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
That answers my question definitively. Must find Middlemarch.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:42 AM on August 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 7:42 AM on August 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is probably a question for my therapist, but I'm starting to wonder if the reason why I don't have many female IRL friends is that I sometimes suck at Emotional Labor with regards to platonic relationships. With my male best friend, it's not a problem for him; I know because I asked him. But having gone to my 20th year high school reunion, seeing two out of the three girls I hung out with the most, and knowing/realizing that I both inadvertently and deliberately lost touch with them after I found new hobbies/moved out of state/got new romantic partners has made me a little sad.
I could probably chalk it up to me wanting to get away from my parents and their modes of showing love and affection because to me it got twisted into guilt and feelings of inadequacy. Currently, one of the reasons why I don't often go to my mostly-female knitting group (which is mostly made of Minneapolis MeFites; alliteration is awesome!) is that I feel bad about being not affluent enough to even buy myself a cup of coffee at the meeting place unless I've double and triple-checked our household budget. So, I don't feel very close to any of them, but I'm trying to get better at that.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:08 AM on August 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I could probably chalk it up to me wanting to get away from my parents and their modes of showing love and affection because to me it got twisted into guilt and feelings of inadequacy. Currently, one of the reasons why I don't often go to my mostly-female knitting group (which is mostly made of Minneapolis MeFites; alliteration is awesome!) is that I feel bad about being not affluent enough to even buy myself a cup of coffee at the meeting place unless I've double and triple-checked our household budget. So, I don't feel very close to any of them, but I'm trying to get better at that.
posted by TrishaLynn at 8:08 AM on August 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Another $5 here. Still thinking through a war story of my own, but while considering it I ran across this brilliantly stated thing this morning: Friendship's Frequency by siderea. It's so perfectly explanatory of the awful things that can happen due to context and expectation when people have different capacities for being social/doing EL.
(Also of interest: Kate Beaton's mom, EL master.)
posted by jinian at 8:34 AM on August 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
(Also of interest: Kate Beaton's mom, EL master.)
posted by jinian at 8:34 AM on August 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
Beaton's mom isn't an EL master, she's an EL martyr. Having one of those myself, those family comics always give me a faint shudder.
posted by MsMolly at 8:52 AM on August 3, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 8:52 AM on August 3, 2015 [17 favorites]
She is a martyr, you're right, and I can understand why you wouldn't like seeing it. To me, the tone of the comics -- obviously both frustrated with that tendency in her and showing that she's lovable in spite of it -- makes me happy. (Well, that and the fact that her daughters don't seem to imitate her, but rather to push back against it and pursue their own deals.)
posted by jinian at 9:49 AM on August 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by jinian at 9:49 AM on August 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
the fact that her daughters don't seem to imitate her, but rather to push back against it and pursue their own deals
Which requires an enormous amount of emotional labor. It's exhausting. Completely exhausting.
posted by MsMolly at 10:10 AM on August 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
Which requires an enormous amount of emotional labor. It's exhausting. Completely exhausting.
posted by MsMolly at 10:10 AM on August 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
It is fascinating to pull out all the hoary (yet still common) “women amirite??” jokes/stereotypes in light of this discussion. I mentioned “why can’t women just say where they want to eat” and “periods, aughhhh” above, but I’ve been working through more of them as the time passes.
Tired trope: “Women take sooooooo long to get ready! It takes me five minutes to get dressed!”
EL-vision: Women have to prepare the home for their absence by working through a mental checklist, which is substantially longer if the house contains pets/children. Women have to plan for where the event is taking place, who will be there, if there are any recent or near-future events (birthdays, weddings) that will be under discussion. If they are menstruating, they need to make plans for dealing with that in potentially unpredictable circumstances. Who has the tickets? Do we need to have a plan for parking? If I wear these earrings, [specific person] will make it into a Thing, so better to wear these instead. I can’t wear those shoes, they are fine for running errands but they start to tear up my heels if I have to walk in them for longer than [x distance]. We’ll drive past [store] on the way home, will it still be open? If so, we can stop and get [things on mental list]. [Out of town person] sometimes calls on Thursday nights, maybe I should send her a text to let her know we’ll be out. [X person] always scolds me for hiding behind my hair, so maybe I should wear it up. [X person] will want to know about [x event], maybe I should make sure I have the info on my phone. [Partner] hates spending money on restaurant desserts, but likes having something sweet after a meal— maybe I’ll tuck some M&Ms in my bag for a little treat.
Tired trope: “Women never just come out and say what they mean!”
EL-vision: Women who come out and say what they mean are called bitches, silenced, resented. Coming out and saying what you mean is treated as the equivalent of actual domestic abuse by many male partners. Hinting, nudging, quietly yearning, carefully arranging dozens of details so that a male partner thinks it is his decision, reading his moods obsessively in order to choose a time when making a comment will be less likely to result in an all-out fight, and doing without are all much less painful than saying what you mean and being told a) you’re wrong and maybe stupid and b) how dare you. (There is also option c, “not right now”, but the future point where something can be discussed never comes.)
Tired trope: “Women are such backstabbing gossips!”
EL-vision: Women are often picking their ways through emotional and cultural minefields, and strategizing with other women in similar positions helps them avoid at least some of the explosions they are trained to expect. Women are so used to being ignored by men at work, in friendships, and in romantic partnerships that talking to another woman who hears what you are saying is a lifeline. Women conduct regular emotional check-ins with each other, since many of them are denied such explicit support from their male partners. Women enjoy having conversations where emotions are not deemed “irrational” and discussion of them is not deemed “pointless” or “boring”.
Tired trope: “Women get upset about the most meaningless details!”
EL-vision: Many women ask for so few concessions (space, time, effort, care), that having the few requests they DO make denied/ignored/mocked is incredibly painful. Women spend so much time and mental effort remembering the incredibly boring yet vital minutiae of every person around them that the inability of others to do they same, on their behalf, once in awhile, is devastating. Women sometimes ask for a certain task to be completed for decades before they crack. Women often discuss details because discussing the larger issue (“I don’t think you view me as a real human being”) is too enormous to contemplate.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:17 AM on August 3, 2015 [152 favorites]
Tired trope: “Women take sooooooo long to get ready! It takes me five minutes to get dressed!”
EL-vision: Women have to prepare the home for their absence by working through a mental checklist, which is substantially longer if the house contains pets/children. Women have to plan for where the event is taking place, who will be there, if there are any recent or near-future events (birthdays, weddings) that will be under discussion. If they are menstruating, they need to make plans for dealing with that in potentially unpredictable circumstances. Who has the tickets? Do we need to have a plan for parking? If I wear these earrings, [specific person] will make it into a Thing, so better to wear these instead. I can’t wear those shoes, they are fine for running errands but they start to tear up my heels if I have to walk in them for longer than [x distance]. We’ll drive past [store] on the way home, will it still be open? If so, we can stop and get [things on mental list]. [Out of town person] sometimes calls on Thursday nights, maybe I should send her a text to let her know we’ll be out. [X person] always scolds me for hiding behind my hair, so maybe I should wear it up. [X person] will want to know about [x event], maybe I should make sure I have the info on my phone. [Partner] hates spending money on restaurant desserts, but likes having something sweet after a meal— maybe I’ll tuck some M&Ms in my bag for a little treat.
Tired trope: “Women never just come out and say what they mean!”
EL-vision: Women who come out and say what they mean are called bitches, silenced, resented. Coming out and saying what you mean is treated as the equivalent of actual domestic abuse by many male partners. Hinting, nudging, quietly yearning, carefully arranging dozens of details so that a male partner thinks it is his decision, reading his moods obsessively in order to choose a time when making a comment will be less likely to result in an all-out fight, and doing without are all much less painful than saying what you mean and being told a) you’re wrong and maybe stupid and b) how dare you. (There is also option c, “not right now”, but the future point where something can be discussed never comes.)
Tired trope: “Women are such backstabbing gossips!”
EL-vision: Women are often picking their ways through emotional and cultural minefields, and strategizing with other women in similar positions helps them avoid at least some of the explosions they are trained to expect. Women are so used to being ignored by men at work, in friendships, and in romantic partnerships that talking to another woman who hears what you are saying is a lifeline. Women conduct regular emotional check-ins with each other, since many of them are denied such explicit support from their male partners. Women enjoy having conversations where emotions are not deemed “irrational” and discussion of them is not deemed “pointless” or “boring”.
Tired trope: “Women get upset about the most meaningless details!”
EL-vision: Many women ask for so few concessions (space, time, effort, care), that having the few requests they DO make denied/ignored/mocked is incredibly painful. Women spend so much time and mental effort remembering the incredibly boring yet vital minutiae of every person around them that the inability of others to do they same, on their behalf, once in awhile, is devastating. Women sometimes ask for a certain task to be completed for decades before they crack. Women often discuss details because discussing the larger issue (“I don’t think you view me as a real human being”) is too enormous to contemplate.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:17 AM on August 3, 2015 [152 favorites]
I find their choices and ability to do that labor encouraging, because so many problems do propagate generationally without being pushed back on. I'm not saying it's an easy situation, and I'm sorry that it seemed like I was.
posted by jinian at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2015
posted by jinian at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2015
Another thing I may have just noticed after decades on this earth - this unequal division of emotional labor has the bulk of the work falling on women and then it's explicitly framed as a compliment: You're such a good listener! You make such a good sounding board! You really understand me! So on top of everything else (lifelong social conditioning and grooming, hypervigilance to others' needs -- especially as the penalty from missing something can jeopardize our own safety, the cultural standard that claims nurturing as an exclusive feminine trait, and on and on...) we're encouraged to take pride in it rather than push back against it.
I mean, the story of the hobbyist meeting above and the woman having her ear bent by two different men - our MeFite was annoyed on her behalf, but how did the woman herself feel about it? How many times have I told myself that I must just have "one of those faces" after some stranger or near-stranger unloaded some problem onto me? And maybe even patted my own back a bit for being inoffensive and approachable and HELPFUL. Because I'm not actually a person, I'm a 24-hour convenience store.
I was raised in an alcoholic, co-dependent household, and there are a host of self-defeating behaviors I can now recognize that were encouraged and rewarded starting when I was terribly young. And even in acknowledging them and trying to move past them now (and trying to get my mind around how to be a "nice" person, when my primary definition of niceness as embodied by me is "utter doormat"), I just thought I was always going to be doing something wrong. That I will always feel uncomfortable in my skin, one way or another. But this thread is telling me that it's not just me, or my family of origin -- it is this culture. It's the old Palmolive commercial - the patriarchy, I'm soaking in it.
On preview: everything a fiendish thingy just detailed, absolutely everything.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:30 AM on August 3, 2015 [22 favorites]
I mean, the story of the hobbyist meeting above and the woman having her ear bent by two different men - our MeFite was annoyed on her behalf, but how did the woman herself feel about it? How many times have I told myself that I must just have "one of those faces" after some stranger or near-stranger unloaded some problem onto me? And maybe even patted my own back a bit for being inoffensive and approachable and HELPFUL. Because I'm not actually a person, I'm a 24-hour convenience store.
I was raised in an alcoholic, co-dependent household, and there are a host of self-defeating behaviors I can now recognize that were encouraged and rewarded starting when I was terribly young. And even in acknowledging them and trying to move past them now (and trying to get my mind around how to be a "nice" person, when my primary definition of niceness as embodied by me is "utter doormat"), I just thought I was always going to be doing something wrong. That I will always feel uncomfortable in my skin, one way or another. But this thread is telling me that it's not just me, or my family of origin -- it is this culture. It's the old Palmolive commercial - the patriarchy, I'm soaking in it.
On preview: everything a fiendish thingy just detailed, absolutely everything.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:30 AM on August 3, 2015 [22 favorites]
Middlemarch is in the public domain.
Project Gutenberg version has epub with & without images, mobi, plain text, and HTML to read online.
LibriVox has the audiobook for free.
EpubZenGarden used to have it as the sample text with several formatting options, but it looks like the site is gone. :(
It's available at several other free ebook sites.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:07 AM on August 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Project Gutenberg version has epub with & without images, mobi, plain text, and HTML to read online.
LibriVox has the audiobook for free.
EpubZenGarden used to have it as the sample text with several formatting options, but it looks like the site is gone. :(
It's available at several other free ebook sites.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:07 AM on August 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
The other week I called my father, who has rather deliberately cut himself off from almost all ties. I asked what he'd been reading - he loves that question and it always leads to engrossing discussions about art - but then he segued into his distaste for current electoral politics - a "This country is going to hell into a handbasket" kind of rant. Not once did he ask me about my life, which is currently pretty interesting. I cut him off. "No, dad. I've told you many times that I don't want to hear about the crimes of the Clintons. Am going to go make a salad for a party."
He said, in a flabbergasted kind of way, "But that's not what I need to hear from you!"
OH WELL, dude.
posted by goofyfoot at 11:55 AM on August 3, 2015 [49 favorites]
He said, in a flabbergasted kind of way, "But that's not what I need to hear from you!"
OH WELL, dude.
posted by goofyfoot at 11:55 AM on August 3, 2015 [49 favorites]
goofyfoot: "But that's not what I need to hear from you!"
Oof, this. This and all of its various forms. Really reminds you of your place in the world.
I used to hear a lot of "You can't be mad at me." Actually, yes I can - you did/said a shitty thing and my reaction is warranted. "But you can't be mad at me LIKE THAT." How then? Quietly and invisibly? "Not RIGHT NOW." Oh I see, because bringing this up later when you can claim that I'm digging up past and irrelevant aches works so well. And always, always wrapping it up with "I don't feel loved, comfort me." Great dude, let me just put all my feelings aside and make you happy.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:10 PM on August 3, 2015 [33 favorites]
Oof, this. This and all of its various forms. Really reminds you of your place in the world.
I used to hear a lot of "You can't be mad at me." Actually, yes I can - you did/said a shitty thing and my reaction is warranted. "But you can't be mad at me LIKE THAT." How then? Quietly and invisibly? "Not RIGHT NOW." Oh I see, because bringing this up later when you can claim that I'm digging up past and irrelevant aches works so well. And always, always wrapping it up with "I don't feel loved, comfort me." Great dude, let me just put all my feelings aside and make you happy.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:10 PM on August 3, 2015 [33 favorites]
It is so on point about the differences in perspective: bad behavior expecting to be forgiven and forgotten as a one-off incident.... and then happening again. And expecting to get a pass as a one-off thing again. But these are just small trivial things, why do you make such big deal out of this? And what kind of person brings up trivial stuff from last month anyway? BECAUSE IT IS A PATTERN THAT'S WHY.
I love reading psychological thrillers and this thing you just described is practically a sub-genre. It's so apparent when you are reading fiction that you find yourself yelling at the BadHusband and trying to figure out exactly how the wife can explain to someone, anyone, that the small, trivial things are so very important. It is not so easy in real life to spot especially when you are married to the BadHusband.
I was gardening this morning and then came in and washed dishes as I so often do because it really gets the dirt out of your cuticles but I felt a bit uneasy, a bit anxious. I looked at the clock and realized that I had gone past the time that I usually spend socializing with my husband before lunch. Thirty years ago my then-husband accused me of "always washing when the dishes when I am home." You see I was supposed to get all of that housework out of the way so that I could be his handmaiden and dance attendance on him when he was home. To this day I always get mildly anxious when my (second) husband is home and I am not socializing or dancing attendance-- even though he has never requested that of me. What can I say? I am a well-trained wife.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:06 PM on August 3, 2015 [21 favorites]
I love reading psychological thrillers and this thing you just described is practically a sub-genre. It's so apparent when you are reading fiction that you find yourself yelling at the BadHusband and trying to figure out exactly how the wife can explain to someone, anyone, that the small, trivial things are so very important. It is not so easy in real life to spot especially when you are married to the BadHusband.
I was gardening this morning and then came in and washed dishes as I so often do because it really gets the dirt out of your cuticles but I felt a bit uneasy, a bit anxious. I looked at the clock and realized that I had gone past the time that I usually spend socializing with my husband before lunch. Thirty years ago my then-husband accused me of "always washing when the dishes when I am home." You see I was supposed to get all of that housework out of the way so that I could be his handmaiden and dance attendance on him when he was home. To this day I always get mildly anxious when my (second) husband is home and I am not socializing or dancing attendance-- even though he has never requested that of me. What can I say? I am a well-trained wife.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:06 PM on August 3, 2015 [21 favorites]
The Box by Sophie1
The box needs to go to UPS for his mom. Because of his dad. How does this work?
I let him know that I trust him to figure it out because he is smart and has a full-time job in problem-solving.
But the box sits on the dining room table.
How do I print out the label? .... I guess I could do it at work.
And still the box sits.
The label is printed and it sits on the box. It drapes on the box. It lays on the box for days upon days.
Is there tape?
Where, in the house that we have lived in for 8 years, together, does the tape live?
And so the label is taped. And still the box sits.
So, do I have to take this somewhere? It won't fit on my bike.
I'm sure UPS has some way of dealing with packages.
And yet the box sits. I wake up and there is the box. I go to sleep and the box is still there.
And still, and still, there sits the box.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:06 PM on August 3, 2015 [100 favorites]
The box needs to go to UPS for his mom. Because of his dad. How does this work?
I let him know that I trust him to figure it out because he is smart and has a full-time job in problem-solving.
But the box sits on the dining room table.
How do I print out the label? .... I guess I could do it at work.
And still the box sits.
The label is printed and it sits on the box. It drapes on the box. It lays on the box for days upon days.
Is there tape?
Where, in the house that we have lived in for 8 years, together, does the tape live?
And so the label is taped. And still the box sits.
So, do I have to take this somewhere? It won't fit on my bike.
I'm sure UPS has some way of dealing with packages.
And yet the box sits. I wake up and there is the box. I go to sleep and the box is still there.
And still, and still, there sits the box.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:06 PM on August 3, 2015 [100 favorites]
So today I discovered that our lab first aid kit has been expired since, conservatively, 2005. Discovering this while I was actually trying to solve a first aid kit was less than optimal, but hey, maybe the lab member who is actually responsible for lab safety just... failed to look at the expirations on the kit for five years. (We all have individual lab maintenance jobs; mine is effectively "be nosy and prod people into doing things that need done.") Fine. I sent out an email requesting that the kit be replaced and asking whether our health & safety department provided them.
Here is the direct conversation that followed:
"Oh, hey, Health & Safety doesn't provide these?"
"No, I think we need to order a new one ourselves. *stares imploringly*
"Okay, well, since lab safety is your gig, can you identify a good kit and order it?" *bright smile*
"Well, any one would do."
"Okay, since lab safety is your gig, can you identify a kit for the lab and order it?" *bright smile*
"Well, I think any kit would be fine."
"Okay, since lab safety is your gig, can you identify a kit for the lab and order it?" *bright smile becomes toothier*
Finally he resentfully shuffled off and said he would do it.
What gets me is that if I tried to pull the direct shut-down that a man can get away with--something like "No, this is your job. Quit trying to pawn it off on me," mentioned upthread? Yeah, I know from experience that this guy would have thrown an enormous tantrum. So I have to figure out how to a) publicly call attention to the fact that this needs done so that he can't ignore his one communal job, b) do so in such a way that it is not obvious that I think he'll shirk the work, c) negotiate his unsubtle attempts to escape doing the work himself, and d) keep his likely emotional responses into account while e) walking a tightrope between doing his work for him and causing him to throw a huge stink that I'm somehow being "disrespectful" to the lab.
posted by sciatrix at 1:17 PM on August 3, 2015 [57 favorites]
Here is the direct conversation that followed:
"Oh, hey, Health & Safety doesn't provide these?"
"No, I think we need to order a new one ourselves. *stares imploringly*
"Okay, well, since lab safety is your gig, can you identify a good kit and order it?" *bright smile*
"Well, any one would do."
"Okay, since lab safety is your gig, can you identify a kit for the lab and order it?" *bright smile*
"Well, I think any kit would be fine."
"Okay, since lab safety is your gig, can you identify a kit for the lab and order it?" *bright smile becomes toothier*
Finally he resentfully shuffled off and said he would do it.
What gets me is that if I tried to pull the direct shut-down that a man can get away with--something like "No, this is your job. Quit trying to pawn it off on me," mentioned upthread? Yeah, I know from experience that this guy would have thrown an enormous tantrum. So I have to figure out how to a) publicly call attention to the fact that this needs done so that he can't ignore his one communal job, b) do so in such a way that it is not obvious that I think he'll shirk the work, c) negotiate his unsubtle attempts to escape doing the work himself, and d) keep his likely emotional responses into account while e) walking a tightrope between doing his work for him and causing him to throw a huge stink that I'm somehow being "disrespectful" to the lab.
posted by sciatrix at 1:17 PM on August 3, 2015 [57 favorites]
"And still, and still, there sits the box."
so much depends
upon
a simple cardboard
box
draped with that
label
that I won't send for
you
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:19 PM on August 3, 2015 [61 favorites]
so much depends
upon
a simple cardboard
box
draped with that
label
that I won't send for
you
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:19 PM on August 3, 2015 [61 favorites]
in re: the box; my very favorite bit from the Simpsons, which I have thought of a few times during this thread but wasn't able to bring up at the right moment. When I see people expecting praise for doing literally the smallest thing (and zero of the emotional labor of course) I mumble to myself: "Ah! Cranberry sauce a la Bart!"
posted by tchemgrrl at 1:31 PM on August 3, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by tchemgrrl at 1:31 PM on August 3, 2015 [31 favorites]
But then, small potatoes are what our lives are mostly made of -- the caulk guns, the pizza, the potluck dishes, the stuff we carry, all that.
My god that comment just knocked the wind right out of me. I've been reading this thread since day 1 in spurts but that comment really summed up how so much of the big issues of a past terrible, terrible relationship were hidden in the daily indignities of having to put on a happy face and dealing with the constant barrage of small acts of disrespect. When I pointed out that he literally treats strangers with more consideration than he did me, he looked at me brightly and said "Well, that's because you're supposed to make sacrifices for people that you love."
"Abusers and assholes want the slate wiped clean, they want to pretend each moment is all new and shiny, and they sure as shit don't want you to look at their behavior over lengthy periods of time."...If you talk about meta-issues then you're arguing 'wrong' because you're bringing up the stuff from years ago.
And yes, this. A hundred thousand times this. My ability to hold a grudge and recite his litany of mistakes was legendary. Of course, if it was a one-off mistake, it wasn't a big deal and I should get over it. If I pointed out that there was a pattern, then I was being petty. And why didn't I say so sooner before it became a problem? Also I needed to remind him in the future and I should do it in a way that isn't so angry because now I'm just being mean.
Women often discuss details because discussing the larger issue (“I don’t think you view me as a real human being”) is too enormous to contemplate.
And this is where I start crying at work.
I'm so relieved to be out from under the crushing weight of that relationship and to be seen as a real human being. It feels ridiculous to have an epiphany about this so long after I officially became an adult but I feel like leaving that relationship was the first time I truly stood up for myself as a real human being.
And count me in as someone who doubled my monthly mefi contribution because of this thread
posted by hindmost at 2:10 PM on August 3, 2015 [89 favorites]
My god that comment just knocked the wind right out of me. I've been reading this thread since day 1 in spurts but that comment really summed up how so much of the big issues of a past terrible, terrible relationship were hidden in the daily indignities of having to put on a happy face and dealing with the constant barrage of small acts of disrespect. When I pointed out that he literally treats strangers with more consideration than he did me, he looked at me brightly and said "Well, that's because you're supposed to make sacrifices for people that you love."
"Abusers and assholes want the slate wiped clean, they want to pretend each moment is all new and shiny, and they sure as shit don't want you to look at their behavior over lengthy periods of time."...If you talk about meta-issues then you're arguing 'wrong' because you're bringing up the stuff from years ago.
And yes, this. A hundred thousand times this. My ability to hold a grudge and recite his litany of mistakes was legendary. Of course, if it was a one-off mistake, it wasn't a big deal and I should get over it. If I pointed out that there was a pattern, then I was being petty. And why didn't I say so sooner before it became a problem? Also I needed to remind him in the future and I should do it in a way that isn't so angry because now I'm just being mean.
Women often discuss details because discussing the larger issue (“I don’t think you view me as a real human being”) is too enormous to contemplate.
And this is where I start crying at work.
I'm so relieved to be out from under the crushing weight of that relationship and to be seen as a real human being. It feels ridiculous to have an epiphany about this so long after I officially became an adult but I feel like leaving that relationship was the first time I truly stood up for myself as a real human being.
And count me in as someone who doubled my monthly mefi contribution because of this thread
posted by hindmost at 2:10 PM on August 3, 2015 [89 favorites]
Of course, if it was a one-off mistake, it wasn't a big deal and I should get over it. If I pointed out that there was a pattern, then I was being petty. And why didn't I say so sooner before it became a problem?
This, this, THIS.
Classic catch-22:
If it's the first time, why are you getting so overwrought about this one little thing?
If it's happened more than once, why didn't you tell me it bothered you before?
Also, can we not talk about this right now? I'm busy/tired/not in the mood, and you're obviously too upset to hold a reasonable discussion.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:21 PM on August 3, 2015 [55 favorites]
This, this, THIS.
Classic catch-22:
If it's the first time, why are you getting so overwrought about this one little thing?
If it's happened more than once, why didn't you tell me it bothered you before?
Also, can we not talk about this right now? I'm busy/tired/not in the mood, and you're obviously too upset to hold a reasonable discussion.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:21 PM on August 3, 2015 [55 favorites]
If it's the first time, why are you getting so overwrought about this one little thing?
I can understand this question in the sense of "I wish you had told me earlier," but not "I feel licensed to continue this behavior because you didn't correct me the very first time I did it."
posted by Rangi at 3:04 PM on August 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I can understand this question in the sense of "I wish you had told me earlier," but not "I feel licensed to continue this behavior because you didn't correct me the very first time I did it."
posted by Rangi at 3:04 PM on August 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I can't even begin to count how many first offences I've just let go without saying something, because I really did think it was just a one-off Bozo moment and fuck it, I didn't have the energy to have a painful, and ultimately pointless confrontation which will ultimately come down to me being overly sensitive AGAIN.
posted by skybluepink at 3:26 PM on August 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 3:26 PM on August 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
On the topic of literature, as much as I adore Middlemarch I have to recommend Cranford by Elizabeth Gaskell. If you have never read it, it is essentially Crone Island, early Victorian era. If you prefer to watch it, the BBC made a delightful adaptation a few years ago but I do love the original text so much for its blend of comedy and tragedy.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:31 PM on August 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:31 PM on August 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
Abusers and assholes want the slate wiped clean, they want to pretend each moment is all new and shiny, and they sure as shit don't want you to look at their behavior over lengthy periods of time....If you talk about meta-issues then you're arguing 'wrong' because you're bringing up the stuff from years ago.
How many times have I been shut down with "Let's not go backwards," "That was a long time ago," "I've gotten better"? And that's supposed to be the end of the conversation, period. Because otherwise I'm just making him feel bad.
But, you know, yesterday I was upset about something, talked to him about it, and he apologized but as he was talking I realized that he still didn't get what it was that I was upset about, so I tried to clarify. And he interpreted my trying to clarify as not letting it go, beating him over the head with this thing after he had already apologized. And in discussing this I said "okay, but there's a fine line between my not browbeating you and my just shutting up so you don't have to feel bad about having hurt me," an insight (probably even a direct quote, ha) that I learned from this thread. And I think maybe things shifted just a little. I know he's really trying, and I'm trying too, because thanks to this thread I can also see where I've been failing.
Also, I bought cards! Holy shit, expensive! I'm switching to postcards after this!
posted by HotToddy at 3:33 PM on August 3, 2015 [31 favorites]
How many times have I been shut down with "Let's not go backwards," "That was a long time ago," "I've gotten better"? And that's supposed to be the end of the conversation, period. Because otherwise I'm just making him feel bad.
But, you know, yesterday I was upset about something, talked to him about it, and he apologized but as he was talking I realized that he still didn't get what it was that I was upset about, so I tried to clarify. And he interpreted my trying to clarify as not letting it go, beating him over the head with this thing after he had already apologized. And in discussing this I said "okay, but there's a fine line between my not browbeating you and my just shutting up so you don't have to feel bad about having hurt me," an insight (probably even a direct quote, ha) that I learned from this thread. And I think maybe things shifted just a little. I know he's really trying, and I'm trying too, because thanks to this thread I can also see where I've been failing.
Also, I bought cards! Holy shit, expensive! I'm switching to postcards after this!
posted by HotToddy at 3:33 PM on August 3, 2015 [31 favorites]
as he was talking I realized that he still didn't get what it was that I was upset about
That kind of constant checking to make sure that you're being understood correctly? It can happen in even conversations that go well, too. For me, this feeling of, "OMG, why aren't they seeing what I'm seeing here? Maybe if I explain it a different way, they'll understand my position and vindicate/validate my emotions..." has followed me all my life.
posted by TrishaLynn at 3:53 PM on August 3, 2015 [15 favorites]
That kind of constant checking to make sure that you're being understood correctly? It can happen in even conversations that go well, too. For me, this feeling of, "OMG, why aren't they seeing what I'm seeing here? Maybe if I explain it a different way, they'll understand my position and vindicate/validate my emotions..." has followed me all my life.
posted by TrishaLynn at 3:53 PM on August 3, 2015 [15 favorites]
cards are expensive! unless! you get them from a dollar general type place. usually cards just as nice as hallmark for a buck a pop.
posted by nadawi at 3:55 PM on August 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 3:55 PM on August 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was just reading the recent thread about having a "curious" name when it occurred to me that I always try to make people feel better about having called me the wrong name or having mispronounced it... often after I've corrected them more than once. My name is two syllables and spelled phonetically. Really, they're saying "I can't be bothered to remember the most basic facts about you," and I'm saying, "oh no worries, I barely notice when I'm not respected as an individual because I've actually ceased to expect it!"
THIS IS SUCH UTTER CRAP.
posted by zennie at 4:45 PM on August 3, 2015 [21 favorites]
THIS IS SUCH UTTER CRAP.
posted by zennie at 4:45 PM on August 3, 2015 [21 favorites]
Also just FYI about cards- if someone makes you a homemade card odds are excellent it cost four or five times what a store-bought one costs, even if you don't count the time and skill of the sender. Crafts are expensive.
This message brought to you from someone who gave a coworker a handmade care only to have her say brightly 'I guess it's a real savings to make them yourself instead of buy them!'
That I didn't hurl her to a throng of slavering manatees is a testament to my kind nature.
posted by winna at 7:46 PM on August 3, 2015 [38 favorites]
This message brought to you from someone who gave a coworker a handmade care only to have her say brightly 'I guess it's a real savings to make them yourself instead of buy them!'
That I didn't hurl her to a throng of slavering manatees is a testament to my kind nature.
posted by winna at 7:46 PM on August 3, 2015 [38 favorites]
This has already changed something where I work (besides me handing out the link like candy to anyone open enough to read it). A younger female-presenting person came to me about some contractors that report to me and their less than stellar behavior. They made it clear in our conversation that they never would have said anything in the past because 'women are just supposed to accept attention from men' and they realized in retrospect, no, they didn't have to put up with that. So all of your stories that you have been brave enough to commit to the blue have made a change for that one person already.
Thank you for that. (And yes, I dealt with the contractors because that shit is not on.)
posted by ladyriffraff at 8:00 PM on August 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
Thank you for that. (And yes, I dealt with the contractors because that shit is not on.)
posted by ladyriffraff at 8:00 PM on August 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
Oh god, my mom does that mother meal martyr thing too.
No, Mom, I want YOU to eat the ear of corn before I have a second ear. Jeezus. At least get full first before you start offering me your dinner.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:28 PM on August 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
No, Mom, I want YOU to eat the ear of corn before I have a second ear. Jeezus. At least get full first before you start offering me your dinner.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:28 PM on August 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
This message brought to you from someone who gave a coworker a handmade care only to have her say brightly 'I guess it's a real savings to make them yourself instead of buy them!'
Oh god, i had a serious eye twitch here. I LOVE making home made cards. I've made home made cards since i was like, 6 or 7. Then it was "cute". Now i get well, responses like this.
I've stopped sending some of those people cards.
And yea, it generally took 3+ hours to make one. Some of them took five or more. And this was for cards mostly made in a graphic design app, printed, and painstakingly cut/glued/assembled in to a normal "card" shape and then added on to.
Oh, and that doesn't count time gestating the idea of what cute/clever callback/inside joke things relevant to that person or stuff i know fits their interests.
I've had work projects that took less total time from "hey we need this thing done", analysis, getting approval for a PO, getting stuff, setting it up, testing, working with anyone else who needs to verify it does The Thing.
And then "Oh wow, real crafty to make it instead of buying it!" stuff like what you posted that blatantly implies that's the easy route.
....Oh jesus fuck and don't even get me started on homemade gifts, and people who think that's the cheap route. Straight into the sarlacc pit.
posted by emptythought at 11:28 PM on August 3, 2015 [26 favorites]
Oh god, i had a serious eye twitch here. I LOVE making home made cards. I've made home made cards since i was like, 6 or 7. Then it was "cute". Now i get well, responses like this.
I've stopped sending some of those people cards.
And yea, it generally took 3+ hours to make one. Some of them took five or more. And this was for cards mostly made in a graphic design app, printed, and painstakingly cut/glued/assembled in to a normal "card" shape and then added on to.
Oh, and that doesn't count time gestating the idea of what cute/clever callback/inside joke things relevant to that person or stuff i know fits their interests.
I've had work projects that took less total time from "hey we need this thing done", analysis, getting approval for a PO, getting stuff, setting it up, testing, working with anyone else who needs to verify it does The Thing.
And then "Oh wow, real crafty to make it instead of buying it!" stuff like what you posted that blatantly implies that's the easy route.
....Oh jesus fuck and don't even get me started on homemade gifts, and people who think that's the cheap route. Straight into the sarlacc pit.
posted by emptythought at 11:28 PM on August 3, 2015 [26 favorites]
That kind of constant checking to make sure that you're being understood correctly? It can happen in even conversations that go well, too. For me, this feeling of, "OMG, why aren't they seeing what I'm seeing here? Maybe if I explain it a different way, they'll understand my position and vindicate/validate my emotions..." has followed me all my life.
Oh man. I was in that relationship and it totally sucks. There's no way to logic someone out of being an asshole.
posted by guster4lovers at 11:34 PM on August 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
Oh man. I was in that relationship and it totally sucks. There's no way to logic someone out of being an asshole.
posted by guster4lovers at 11:34 PM on August 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
You know the line about "I meant to get you flowers?" My ex is literally texting me that he meant to fix our marriage but... And how his intentions should totally count for more than the decade of repeated crud. Oh it feels good to be done, done, done with having to say yes, okay, I'll try again and to say "No, fuck you, you hurt me and you don't wipe it away with an apology that has no substance and I'm not going to tell you how to apologise."
Why am I expected to teach him how to fix the problem he's created? So I can get blamed for not teaching him, rather than him going oh hey maybe I should find someone other than the woman I've hurt deeply to help me figure out what I can do to repair this.
I'm going to buy flowers for myself later. Fuck you flowers.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:45 PM on August 3, 2015 [39 favorites]
Why am I expected to teach him how to fix the problem he's created? So I can get blamed for not teaching him, rather than him going oh hey maybe I should find someone other than the woman I've hurt deeply to help me figure out what I can do to repair this.
I'm going to buy flowers for myself later. Fuck you flowers.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:45 PM on August 3, 2015 [39 favorites]
....Oh jesus fuck and don't even get me started on homemade gifts, and people who think that's the cheap route. Straight into the sarlacc pit.
Eventually, the list of people for whom I was willing to knit anything, other than myself, became limited to my husband, who could see exactly how long it took me, and was aware of exactly how expensive yarn is, and my late mother-in-law, who was a knitter herself for 40+ years. Yeah, no, not the cheap route AT ALL.
posted by skybluepink at 11:56 PM on August 3, 2015 [28 favorites]
Eventually, the list of people for whom I was willing to knit anything, other than myself, became limited to my husband, who could see exactly how long it took me, and was aware of exactly how expensive yarn is, and my late mother-in-law, who was a knitter herself for 40+ years. Yeah, no, not the cheap route AT ALL.
posted by skybluepink at 11:56 PM on August 3, 2015 [28 favorites]
dorothyisunderwood: "No, fuck you, you hurt me and you don't wipe it away with an apology that has no substance and I'm not going to tell you how to apologise."
Oh god yes. I hate that so much. So much. And I know the dudejoke is "hurhur women are all like 'if you don't know what you did wrong there's no point in asking'" but goddamnit, have a little fucking care here. Think, for one moment, about how you treat people, and just maybe it will come clear. If I have to walk you through how to treat me kindly, then you still aren't treating me kindly.
Like, for all my weird things (don't call me on my birthday, don't tell me I'm sexually appealing, don't touch me unless I initiate the contact) I will explain but 'don't denigrate my achievements' is pretty fucking baseline. Same with 'listen when I speak' and 'take me seriously' and 'acknowledge my labour'. Why should I have to beg and plead to be treated kindly and with respect? Only to listen to all the 'reasons' those things don't apply to me?
posted by geek anachronism at 12:27 AM on August 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
Oh god yes. I hate that so much. So much. And I know the dudejoke is "hurhur women are all like 'if you don't know what you did wrong there's no point in asking'" but goddamnit, have a little fucking care here. Think, for one moment, about how you treat people, and just maybe it will come clear. If I have to walk you through how to treat me kindly, then you still aren't treating me kindly.
Like, for all my weird things (don't call me on my birthday, don't tell me I'm sexually appealing, don't touch me unless I initiate the contact) I will explain but 'don't denigrate my achievements' is pretty fucking baseline. Same with 'listen when I speak' and 'take me seriously' and 'acknowledge my labour'. Why should I have to beg and plead to be treated kindly and with respect? Only to listen to all the 'reasons' those things don't apply to me?
posted by geek anachronism at 12:27 AM on August 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
Maybe the thing I like best about The Thread is how when you're feeling stressed you can just sit back and stare at it, like you do a Venice sunset or a sleeping infant or a beautiful just-opened flower. Your heartrate slows... breathing quiets and deepens... you feel a one-ness with the world. Here's the latest Grecian urn:
There's no way to logic someone out of being an asshole.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:51 AM on August 4, 2015 [37 favorites]
There's no way to logic someone out of being an asshole.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:51 AM on August 4, 2015 [37 favorites]
Huh. It generally makes me angry and sad on behalf of those who are sharing their stories here. A one-ness with the world? Half the world, at most.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:29 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:29 AM on August 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well, my baseline is angry and, if I'm not careful, directing that anger and frustration inwards. Usually if you externalize it as a woman you get told to stop whining, after all. Being reminded that this shit is not my fault or unique to me absolves me of the responsibility to fret about how to fix it; after all, assholes gonna ass. All the rest of the thread can do is listen intently and hiss "that fuckwit" at appropriate intervals. Without the thread, you still have to deal with the emotional labor, but no one's putting in supportive labor for you and telling you that it's not secretly all your fault anyway.
Incidentally, the existence of this thread reminded me to loop my boss in on my coworker trying to make me do his job, and my boss responded back saying "thanks for letting me know, I've noticed this pattern with him too." So hey, net positive gains!
posted by sciatrix at 7:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [42 favorites]
Incidentally, the existence of this thread reminded me to loop my boss in on my coworker trying to make me do his job, and my boss responded back saying "thanks for letting me know, I've noticed this pattern with him too." So hey, net positive gains!
posted by sciatrix at 7:42 AM on August 4, 2015 [42 favorites]
It's the same fantastic feeling you get when you get a diagnosis of a lowgrade malady you've suffered with for years. For years you're thinking, "What is it, what the hell is wrong with me, what can I do?" Then comes the halcyon day when at last the problem is named. Knowing what it is is a relief because then you can start to figure out whether it makes sense to expend more energy on remediation or whether there's no cure and you can think about other more interesting stuff for the rest of your life. "Oh, I was coming up with new ways to explain this to him and none of them worked. It's not that my explanations were bad, it's just that he's an asshole!"
posted by Don Pepino at 7:51 AM on August 4, 2015 [56 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 7:51 AM on August 4, 2015 [56 favorites]
Well, without giving too much away, this thread led me and my dude to a few really hard (really hard) discussions over the last couple of weeks. The end result so far seems to be that both of us are much, much better at recognizing each other's contributions to the relationship. He is also picking up some serious slack that I didn't realize bothered me so much, as regards general cleaning and more importantly, planning of things. We went camping this weekend with some friends, and he came up with a really good packing list for the both of us (awesome!). He was also graciously surprised and thankful about stuff I packed for us that he had forgotten about. Sunscreen and whatnot.
We had a big old fight one night about thank-you cards he should send, of all the dumb things, and I finally gave up on trying to reason and walked out on him and went to a different room and left him to it. I had a stash of thank-you cards and had brought a couple out and got them ready for him. Because one time, I realized I needed thank-you cards and put them on a shopping list and rode on a train and bought them and stuffed them in my tiny New York City desk drawer. I was willing to share the goods, though. My hard-won thank-you cards.
He was, at that point, in a bitter and resentful mood (of the sort that I know really well; expectations that don't seem fair don't seem fair). He nonetheless prepared and sent cards to two couples who are colleagues/friends of his and who had recently entertained us with lovely dinners of different sorts. In talking later, he admitted he was surprised about how much work it was to look up the spellings of everyone's names, kids and all, and how hard it was to find an address and then an envelope and then a stamp. I nodded and let that sit, and he got it. The bitter and resentful mood was at first directed at me, but then he got it. And later, to his credit, fawned over me for a while.
Both cards have since reaped rewards. Today he saw his colleague, who is much higher-ranked in the biz. The colleague was happy about the card and more happy about the picture that my guy included of the two of us and his wife. Asked for a digital copy. Quote my dude in an email to me about the meeting: "We are winners." Yes, my dude. We are indeed winners, after I fight and fight and cry and walk out for a bit and beg you to understand what this sort of thing means to people. To his credit, he does now.
For the record, the winning points in our personal battles were less about how neglecting social "duties" hurt me more as the female-gendered one, and more about how either of us doing the little things that are nice to people makes everyone feel happier and more connected. Neither of us grew up in particularly socially connected families, but I think we're both starting to get that we can and should both be responsible for the little connections. And he's getting it that it's profoundly worthwhile to have connections to humans other than me. It's been really good and really, really hard.
I kinda feel like I've come up from underwater. I got so used to the water that I thought I might just be a really inadequate fish. Turns out I'm a pretty rad human. So that's nice.
Anyway, I think the next phase is us straight-up announcing when we've done a thing for each other/the Brooklyn apartment that also has a couple other roommates. "Yo, though, check out how clean the stove is!" High-fives will abound. No more hiding the nice things. Let's get them out in the open, and appreciate and celebrate and live such a good life with everyone. It's all so much easier, now that emotional work is starting to be given the gravity it deserves. I think it may have been the only thing we were really missing: that open appreciation. Every friendship he and I and we have is gonna be better for it. Thank you all so, so much.
posted by lauranesson at 4:38 PM on August 4, 2015 [100 favorites]
We had a big old fight one night about thank-you cards he should send, of all the dumb things, and I finally gave up on trying to reason and walked out on him and went to a different room and left him to it. I had a stash of thank-you cards and had brought a couple out and got them ready for him. Because one time, I realized I needed thank-you cards and put them on a shopping list and rode on a train and bought them and stuffed them in my tiny New York City desk drawer. I was willing to share the goods, though. My hard-won thank-you cards.
He was, at that point, in a bitter and resentful mood (of the sort that I know really well; expectations that don't seem fair don't seem fair). He nonetheless prepared and sent cards to two couples who are colleagues/friends of his and who had recently entertained us with lovely dinners of different sorts. In talking later, he admitted he was surprised about how much work it was to look up the spellings of everyone's names, kids and all, and how hard it was to find an address and then an envelope and then a stamp. I nodded and let that sit, and he got it. The bitter and resentful mood was at first directed at me, but then he got it. And later, to his credit, fawned over me for a while.
Both cards have since reaped rewards. Today he saw his colleague, who is much higher-ranked in the biz. The colleague was happy about the card and more happy about the picture that my guy included of the two of us and his wife. Asked for a digital copy. Quote my dude in an email to me about the meeting: "We are winners." Yes, my dude. We are indeed winners, after I fight and fight and cry and walk out for a bit and beg you to understand what this sort of thing means to people. To his credit, he does now.
For the record, the winning points in our personal battles were less about how neglecting social "duties" hurt me more as the female-gendered one, and more about how either of us doing the little things that are nice to people makes everyone feel happier and more connected. Neither of us grew up in particularly socially connected families, but I think we're both starting to get that we can and should both be responsible for the little connections. And he's getting it that it's profoundly worthwhile to have connections to humans other than me. It's been really good and really, really hard.
I kinda feel like I've come up from underwater. I got so used to the water that I thought I might just be a really inadequate fish. Turns out I'm a pretty rad human. So that's nice.
Anyway, I think the next phase is us straight-up announcing when we've done a thing for each other/the Brooklyn apartment that also has a couple other roommates. "Yo, though, check out how clean the stove is!" High-fives will abound. No more hiding the nice things. Let's get them out in the open, and appreciate and celebrate and live such a good life with everyone. It's all so much easier, now that emotional work is starting to be given the gravity it deserves. I think it may have been the only thing we were really missing: that open appreciation. Every friendship he and I and we have is gonna be better for it. Thank you all so, so much.
posted by lauranesson at 4:38 PM on August 4, 2015 [100 favorites]
Laura, I am so happy for you and Mr. Laura. Cheers to both of you for being able to talk this out and work on this together! And yes, hooray for all of your friendships from this point forward!
posted by TrishaLynn at 4:45 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by TrishaLynn at 4:45 PM on August 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Thread also helps reconcile heartbreaks into more positive fuck yeahs
posted by infini at 5:07 PM on August 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by infini at 5:07 PM on August 4, 2015 [11 favorites]
From The Guardian: Dear manchild: if you want me to look after you, it's time to pay up
(sorry if this was already linked, I didn't see it but god knows I could have missed it in this long thread)
posted by triggerfinger at 8:23 PM on August 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
(sorry if this was already linked, I didn't see it but god knows I could have missed it in this long thread)
posted by triggerfinger at 8:23 PM on August 4, 2015 [14 favorites]
My land, all the whining manchildren in the comments! Yup, still feeling great about not dating those guys.
posted by palomar at 5:52 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by palomar at 5:52 AM on August 5, 2015 [9 favorites]
Speaking of whining manchildren, my favorite thing in the world today is this article. Not because of the article itself, although it's interesting in a "let's all burn the world down now" way. But because someone forgot to change the URL from its draft version when they finalized the article title.
For posterity in case this changes later:
The article's final title is "How Men’s Emotions Are Preventing Gender Equality at Work."
The URL, which would have come from the title being used for the piece in its draft form, is http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/wah-wah-why-dont-you-cry-a-little-more-you-little-man-jk-stfu .
posted by Stacey at 5:59 AM on August 5, 2015 [117 favorites]
For posterity in case this changes later:
The article's final title is "How Men’s Emotions Are Preventing Gender Equality at Work."
The URL, which would have come from the title being used for the piece in its draft form, is http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/wah-wah-why-dont-you-cry-a-little-more-you-little-man-jk-stfu .
posted by Stacey at 5:59 AM on August 5, 2015 [117 favorites]
Or maybe it's the editor's deliciously misandrist subtext
posted by moody cow at 6:32 AM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by moody cow at 6:32 AM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
Queer lady.. I've been pondering a question since I first saw a comment on it here. Are men really THAT insecure in bed, that women have to constantly reassure them of their virility and constantly soothe their egos? That just seems... crazy... to me.
posted by zug at 7:16 PM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by zug at 7:16 PM on August 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yes.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:11 PM on August 5, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:11 PM on August 5, 2015 [15 favorites]
For most men, it's less "constantly reassure" and more "never, ever say anything remotely critical or derogatory, not even in jokes" -- their own egos will provide the praise as long as they don't hear anything contradictory.
There are a small but notable number of scumbags who turn violent if they don't get overt praise, and an even smaller but truly amazing number who don't actually care whether they are always considered the best lover on the planet by any woman who sleeps with them.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:25 PM on August 5, 2015 [18 favorites]
There are a small but notable number of scumbags who turn violent if they don't get overt praise, and an even smaller but truly amazing number who don't actually care whether they are always considered the best lover on the planet by any woman who sleeps with them.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:25 PM on August 5, 2015 [18 favorites]
It is August 6, and still, the box sits.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:19 AM on August 6, 2015 [52 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 6:19 AM on August 6, 2015 [52 favorites]
Count me as a new member. I've spent the last three days reading this thread at work (instead of working) and Jesus Fuck, I am feeling so much emotion, relating to all of you. My guy has his moments, but the obliviousness and good GOD the defensiveness when confronted! I'm not quite ready to divorce him, but I would absolutely never get married again. Not for anything.
A few years ago, I was in charge* of taking care of his mom, who had dementia. Not diaper-changing and feeding care, but the general oversight of her and the father in law to get them out of their living situation and into assisted living, etc. The facility was about an hour out of town, and I spent every single ride home contemplating suicide at old age. I'm less traumatized by it now, but it still seems like the best option. (I have two step-kids, but they have a mom, so I'm not counting on them.) And of course, the endless fucking EL of caring for the in-laws, and caring for David while his mother fell apart, so he didn't have to spend time with her, and GOD DAMN IT. I told him if he gets dementia, he's going straight to the VA facility. He thinks I'm kidding. Think what you want, buddy. That ain't happening to me twice. I'll be on Crone Island, weaving banners and eating avocados.
*because he would not do it, just procrastinated and oh, I can't take time from work, and I finally took it on as an act of compassion for those poor suffering old people. Jesus.
posted by corvikate at 6:53 AM on August 6, 2015 [41 favorites]
A few years ago, I was in charge* of taking care of his mom, who had dementia. Not diaper-changing and feeding care, but the general oversight of her and the father in law to get them out of their living situation and into assisted living, etc. The facility was about an hour out of town, and I spent every single ride home contemplating suicide at old age. I'm less traumatized by it now, but it still seems like the best option. (I have two step-kids, but they have a mom, so I'm not counting on them.) And of course, the endless fucking EL of caring for the in-laws, and caring for David while his mother fell apart, so he didn't have to spend time with her, and GOD DAMN IT. I told him if he gets dementia, he's going straight to the VA facility. He thinks I'm kidding. Think what you want, buddy. That ain't happening to me twice. I'll be on Crone Island, weaving banners and eating avocados.
*because he would not do it, just procrastinated and oh, I can't take time from work, and I finally took it on as an act of compassion for those poor suffering old people. Jesus.
posted by corvikate at 6:53 AM on August 6, 2015 [41 favorites]
Welcome, corvikate. Been here, done this. First for my father's mother, because dad was too much of a whiny man-baby to take care of his demented mother and now my husband's father, because, denial. Thankfully the denial only lasted so long and he's picked up a shit ton of the work I was doing, but I swear, at the beginning, if I wasn't insisting on certain things, the in-laws would have starved to death in a pile of their own filth (because they can take care of themselves! They're fine!!!).
Anyway, you're among friends.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:12 AM on August 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
Anyway, you're among friends.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:12 AM on August 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
I honestly don't know what my in-laws' plans are for that part of life. I hope my mom-law doesn't expect us to do what she did for hers and move them into our tiny bungalow, and our relationship is good enough to where I don't think she'd be offended if I didn't want to do that. But at least my hubs is doing the EL of that and urgently trying them to get them to talk to an estate planner, which I think pop-law is putting off for reasons I don't really fathom.
And hugs corvikate.
posted by TrishaLynn at 7:24 AM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
And hugs corvikate.
posted by TrishaLynn at 7:24 AM on August 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
CORVI! I'm so glad you're here. (This is Stacey from the Suspects.) I will meet you on Crone Island waving my kitten banner.
For a variety of reasons related to them being terrible human beings, my partner told his parents years ago that they should not under any circumstances expect to rely on him or on me for any sort of eldercare. I cannot lie, it is IMMENSELY freeing to me to know thinking about his parents' aging is one particular part of gendered emotional labor requirements I can nope way the fuck out of. I worry about my sisters-in-law, though. I have a distinct feeling they are going to end up providing the lion's share of the eldercare for two really terrible people who are not getting any better as they get older.
posted by Stacey at 7:38 AM on August 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
For a variety of reasons related to them being terrible human beings, my partner told his parents years ago that they should not under any circumstances expect to rely on him or on me for any sort of eldercare. I cannot lie, it is IMMENSELY freeing to me to know thinking about his parents' aging is one particular part of gendered emotional labor requirements I can nope way the fuck out of. I worry about my sisters-in-law, though. I have a distinct feeling they are going to end up providing the lion's share of the eldercare for two really terrible people who are not getting any better as they get older.
posted by Stacey at 7:38 AM on August 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
When The Thread closes, how will we get updates on The Box?
posted by Don Pepino at 8:04 AM on August 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 8:04 AM on August 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
how about creating something like twitter.com/TheBoxWatch
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:37 AM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:37 AM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
I was wishing earlier for either a twitterbot for Box Watch 2015 or a webcam for the box or something.
posted by Stacey at 8:56 AM on August 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:56 AM on August 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would like Socks Watch to join Box Watch. His socks have been on the floor for days. I want to take a daily photograph of them next to today's date--kind of a proof-of-wife thing...
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:07 AM on August 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:07 AM on August 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
I am suddenly terrified that my partner has Socks Watch for me going somewhere, because I am so bad about leaving a trail of socks and shoes everywhere I go.
But if he does, I will retaliate with Counter of Days Since Anyone But Me Last Took Out The Recycling Because For Some Reason Only People With Vaginas Can Do That I Guess?, so it'll all balance out.
posted by Stacey at 10:30 AM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
But if he does, I will retaliate with Counter of Days Since Anyone But Me Last Took Out The Recycling Because For Some Reason Only People With Vaginas Can Do That I Guess?, so it'll all balance out.
posted by Stacey at 10:30 AM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Your wish is my command. Photos of the box to come soon.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:13 AM on August 6, 2015 [47 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 11:13 AM on August 6, 2015 [47 favorites]
The box already has 14 followers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on August 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
Wow. It's amazing how beautiful this thread is. I so rarely see such wonderful, supportive environments on the internet, and the whole thing got me to find out my Mefi login again.
I recently suffered from some really severe injuries, and one of the most frustrating things about this process (aside from, y'know, being wheelchair bound for three months and now trying super-duper hard to actually get back into shape and be myself again) has been managing how other people feel about my injuries, and making it easier for them.
I mean, yes, I'm super-grateful that I didn't have a spinal injury, or damage any organs, and all sorts of other things that could very easily have happened. But I don't really want to talk about it constantly, I've made my peace with it, but for so many people around me, it's all they want to talk about- alongside "what are you doing now?" because obviously, I should have this all figured out (when I don't even know if I'll be able to get back to my former activity level yet) so that they don't have to feel bad about my injuries permanently affecting my life. While also being grateful that I'm not worse injured. It's a weird, twisting, dangerous path and it's difficult to figure out what each individual person wants from these exchanges, but I have to keep performing this whole shtick lest people feel too awkward.
My female relatives have all been great- coming by, helping to set up the house so I could get around and take care of myself with minimal help. It's been the male relatives who most want me to "figure stuff out" and get affronted when I say I don't know, and won't know for a while. It's... tiring, and it's nice having this article (and this community!) to give me words for what I'm experiencing.
Thank you, MeFi.
posted by Cracky at 1:53 PM on August 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
I recently suffered from some really severe injuries, and one of the most frustrating things about this process (aside from, y'know, being wheelchair bound for three months and now trying super-duper hard to actually get back into shape and be myself again) has been managing how other people feel about my injuries, and making it easier for them.
I mean, yes, I'm super-grateful that I didn't have a spinal injury, or damage any organs, and all sorts of other things that could very easily have happened. But I don't really want to talk about it constantly, I've made my peace with it, but for so many people around me, it's all they want to talk about- alongside "what are you doing now?" because obviously, I should have this all figured out (when I don't even know if I'll be able to get back to my former activity level yet) so that they don't have to feel bad about my injuries permanently affecting my life. While also being grateful that I'm not worse injured. It's a weird, twisting, dangerous path and it's difficult to figure out what each individual person wants from these exchanges, but I have to keep performing this whole shtick lest people feel too awkward.
My female relatives have all been great- coming by, helping to set up the house so I could get around and take care of myself with minimal help. It's been the male relatives who most want me to "figure stuff out" and get affronted when I say I don't know, and won't know for a while. It's... tiring, and it's nice having this article (and this community!) to give me words for what I'm experiencing.
Thank you, MeFi.
posted by Cracky at 1:53 PM on August 6, 2015 [29 favorites]
I feel ya, Cracky.
(((HUGS))) (if you want them)
posted by Michele in California at 2:02 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
(((HUGS))) (if you want them)
posted by Michele in California at 2:02 PM on August 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
+$5 here too.
After doing ‘online communities’ intensively for most of two decades (going all the way back to CompuServe and GEnie, BTW*), I had made a choice to quietly absent myself / not take on anything new, simply because my participation involved so much emotional work and energy, which I decided I needed to focus elsewhere. But if anything is worth my EL, it’s this, and you all. I am so grateful for, and impressed by, this thread and the people contributing to it, and I would like to join you all on Crone Island.
I only discovered this thread late last Sunday; it took me almost four days of intensive reading to get to the end, and I am not a slow reader! I will return in a little while with more specific thoughts and a war story or two, but for now I offer hugs to you all and something for the Crone Island playlist:
“Whatever You Want”, Vienna Teng
video | lyrics
but she goes on curating your domestic museum
she disappears in her loyalty
she is a dress
wearing a face
in the doorway
opening her arms out to you
*Before The Web
posted by orchidfox at 2:58 PM on August 6, 2015 [27 favorites]
After doing ‘online communities’ intensively for most of two decades (going all the way back to CompuServe and GEnie, BTW*), I had made a choice to quietly absent myself / not take on anything new, simply because my participation involved so much emotional work and energy, which I decided I needed to focus elsewhere. But if anything is worth my EL, it’s this, and you all. I am so grateful for, and impressed by, this thread and the people contributing to it, and I would like to join you all on Crone Island.
I only discovered this thread late last Sunday; it took me almost four days of intensive reading to get to the end, and I am not a slow reader! I will return in a little while with more specific thoughts and a war story or two, but for now I offer hugs to you all and something for the Crone Island playlist:
“Whatever You Want”, Vienna Teng
video | lyrics
but she goes on curating your domestic museum
she disappears in her loyalty
she is a dress
wearing a face
in the doorway
opening her arms out to you
*Before The Web
posted by orchidfox at 2:58 PM on August 6, 2015 [27 favorites]
I've had a super long and tiring day. I've spent the last 5 minutes giggling about following a twitter account about a box. Thank you it's made my end of day so much better!
posted by Jalliah at 7:41 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Jalliah at 7:41 PM on August 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
orchidfox: After doing ‘online communities’ intensively for most of two decades...I had made a choice to quietly absent myself / not take on anything new, simply because my participation involved so much emotional work and energy, which I decided I needed to focus elsewhere. But if anything is worth my EL, it’s this, and you all. I am so grateful for, and impressed by, this thread and the people contributing to it, and I would like to join you all on Crone Island.
Welcome, orchidfox! Same here, on all counts. I got my first e-mail account and Usenet access in 1993, and I've followed and participated in many online forums and community spaces in that time. I've served as a moderator for several e-mail discussion lists and web forums also. I got burnt out and withdrew after I wised up to what a thankless, time-consuming, and emotionally demanding job it is if you want to do it well. And it's unpaid, too!
I got tempted to dive into forum moderation again recently, after several of the musicians I'm interviewing for my in-progress book on dark ambient music expressed the desire for a good, well-moderated online forum on the subject. I'd love to have such a forum. I'm extremely passionate and knowledgeable about dark ambient music, I know I'm a capable moderator, and I recently completed a training series in front-end web development so I now have more technical skills as well. But I don't have the necessary financial backing and time to take on such a huge project in unpaid, unrewarded emotional labour, so I decided not to do it. And this thread has made me even more confident that I made the right decision. (Let it be said, though, that if I did have the financial resources and time, I would do it in a heartbeat, because I love the music and the community around it so much! I have no objection to paid emotional labour in a situation like this.)
Anyway, the point I wanted to make is this: if there's any place that truly deserves the name "online community," MetaFilter is it. Nothing else I've seen even comes close. And this thread, in particular, has become my favourite thing ever on the Internet.
Update on my Crone Island outpost: I've received a couple of MeMails from would-be Crone Islanders who will be joining me for tea at my downtown Portland hermitage at some point. Yay! I'm thinking we've got a decentralised Crone Island movement in the works...
posted by velvet winter at 8:12 PM on August 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
Welcome, orchidfox! Same here, on all counts. I got my first e-mail account and Usenet access in 1993, and I've followed and participated in many online forums and community spaces in that time. I've served as a moderator for several e-mail discussion lists and web forums also. I got burnt out and withdrew after I wised up to what a thankless, time-consuming, and emotionally demanding job it is if you want to do it well. And it's unpaid, too!
I got tempted to dive into forum moderation again recently, after several of the musicians I'm interviewing for my in-progress book on dark ambient music expressed the desire for a good, well-moderated online forum on the subject. I'd love to have such a forum. I'm extremely passionate and knowledgeable about dark ambient music, I know I'm a capable moderator, and I recently completed a training series in front-end web development so I now have more technical skills as well. But I don't have the necessary financial backing and time to take on such a huge project in unpaid, unrewarded emotional labour, so I decided not to do it. And this thread has made me even more confident that I made the right decision. (Let it be said, though, that if I did have the financial resources and time, I would do it in a heartbeat, because I love the music and the community around it so much! I have no objection to paid emotional labour in a situation like this.)
Anyway, the point I wanted to make is this: if there's any place that truly deserves the name "online community," MetaFilter is it. Nothing else I've seen even comes close. And this thread, in particular, has become my favourite thing ever on the Internet.
Update on my Crone Island outpost: I've received a couple of MeMails from would-be Crone Islanders who will be joining me for tea at my downtown Portland hermitage at some point. Yay! I'm thinking we've got a decentralised Crone Island movement in the works...
posted by velvet winter at 8:12 PM on August 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
Since/during this thread, I've noticed some things changing for me too. I don't have a partner at all, let alone a male one, but even so I have paid more attention to the emotional labour my (mostly female) friends and co-workers have made, either for me or others, and thanked them for it when I can. I have done my best to wrangle some of my male co-workers (who, because we work in a feminised profession, are slightly better than your average male to do some emotional labour, ever) into contributing their knowledge/information-sharing/skills etc to others (mostly our mutual boss) instead of waiting to be asked, told, or otherwise repeatedly pushed into doing so. I have also paid attention to people in service industries and thanked them sincerely for being helpful as an acknowledgement of the emotional labour that goes into it - yes, they are doing their jobs, but it helps to be thanked.
I have also made concrete efforts to offer more emotional labour for people I want to. So making time to have a phone conversation with a friend having a difficult spot even though I had to go to work and didn't have a lot of time to spare. On finding out another friend's cold had turned into not just bronchitis but pneumonia, going to the shops and getting her some easy, low-preparation staple foods so that she could have simple meals that didn't require much though or organisation. (If I had more spoons at the moment, I'd've made her soup, but I've had my own dramas.) I've checked in with friends to see how they're going with the major and minor ongoing problems of life. For a co-worker who is moving on to another job, because I couldn't attend her farewell, I sent her a note about how much I'd enjoyed working with her and would miss her.
I've also had some insights into the aspects of my job that involve emotional labour for the public. I have noticed that when I do not turn on lots of emotional labour, people do not tend to react as well. If I don't maintain a sunny smile and soothing servility, I've had one guy walk away in a huff because it was obviously too much trouble for me to help him do something he was perfectly able to do himself and had a woman call me rude, argumentative and unhelpful because I was daring to actually give her relevant information that contradicted her assumptions. I have a new way to refer to the way I get at the end of a weekend spent working: I have run out of smiles (this is really akin to having no fucks left to give, but some people get offended by that level of bluntness in the workplace).
And I daily appreciate that when I am out of spoons to do things and leave dishes unwashed, clean laundry languishing unfolded in the dryer, socks not put in the dirty laundry basket, have cereal for dinner etc, these things really only affect me and I do not expect anyone else to do them for me, let alone have to do them for anyone else.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:18 PM on August 6, 2015 [27 favorites]
I have also made concrete efforts to offer more emotional labour for people I want to. So making time to have a phone conversation with a friend having a difficult spot even though I had to go to work and didn't have a lot of time to spare. On finding out another friend's cold had turned into not just bronchitis but pneumonia, going to the shops and getting her some easy, low-preparation staple foods so that she could have simple meals that didn't require much though or organisation. (If I had more spoons at the moment, I'd've made her soup, but I've had my own dramas.) I've checked in with friends to see how they're going with the major and minor ongoing problems of life. For a co-worker who is moving on to another job, because I couldn't attend her farewell, I sent her a note about how much I'd enjoyed working with her and would miss her.
I've also had some insights into the aspects of my job that involve emotional labour for the public. I have noticed that when I do not turn on lots of emotional labour, people do not tend to react as well. If I don't maintain a sunny smile and soothing servility, I've had one guy walk away in a huff because it was obviously too much trouble for me to help him do something he was perfectly able to do himself and had a woman call me rude, argumentative and unhelpful because I was daring to actually give her relevant information that contradicted her assumptions. I have a new way to refer to the way I get at the end of a weekend spent working: I have run out of smiles (this is really akin to having no fucks left to give, but some people get offended by that level of bluntness in the workplace).
And I daily appreciate that when I am out of spoons to do things and leave dishes unwashed, clean laundry languishing unfolded in the dryer, socks not put in the dirty laundry basket, have cereal for dinner etc, these things really only affect me and I do not expect anyone else to do them for me, let alone have to do them for anyone else.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:18 PM on August 6, 2015 [27 favorites]
Over at Bust: Advice For Dudes From a Dude: How to Improve Your Relationship in 3 Easy Steps. "The good news is that losing the [Just a Guy] alibi releases both genders from self-defeating patterns. For women, no longer excusing men from reciprocating love prevents a much more punishing state: the loneliness of loving for two. For men, surrendering the alibi by becoming more conscientious opens us to authentic connections. Whenever I have not been “just a guy,” a surprising intimacy emerges. It is not the scary version of intimacy we men are accused of fearing—one whose agenda is to enslave us to need or damn us to failure—but rather one that initiates true alliance with another." It's a relatively short piece; go and read.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:00 AM on August 7, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:00 AM on August 7, 2015 [25 favorites]
As I've said earlier my partner is a good guy so I already feel the share of emotional labour is equitable. But last night a thing happened and I told him how I felt about it. He said "Sorry. Now I feel shitty." So, as I have been socialised to do, I automatically replied "Oh no, don't feel shitty, it's ok." Then I stopped and said "Actually, if you feel shitty about it then that's fine. It's not up to me to make you not feel shitty about it. I'm just telling you how I felt so if that makes you feel bad then that's for you to deal with." He said "That's fair and I'll be more considerate of X in future." It felt so good to have the awareness of what I was doing and why and be able to say "Actually, nope." It feels like gaining a new superpower and one that I think will actually make our relationship even stronger. Once more, I love this thread with the heat of a thousand suns.
posted by billiebee at 7:19 AM on August 7, 2015 [83 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 7:19 AM on August 7, 2015 [83 favorites]
Your wish is my command. Photos of the box to come soon.
I'm not sure I have anything valuable to add to the conversation, but before this closes I wanted to say that I revived my long-dormant Twitter account to follow the box! It would be interesting to see a Tumblr with submissions from all over the world. (I keep imagining it going viral and the guys slowly recognizing their own box or socks in the BuzzFeed article or on @midnight.)
posted by Room 641-A at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2015 [18 favorites]
I'm not sure I have anything valuable to add to the conversation, but before this closes I wanted to say that I revived my long-dormant Twitter account to follow the box! It would be interesting to see a Tumblr with submissions from all over the world. (I keep imagining it going viral and the guys slowly recognizing their own box or socks in the BuzzFeed article or on @midnight.)
posted by Room 641-A at 8:02 AM on August 7, 2015 [18 favorites]
I think the strongest effect of this thread for me has been a sort of level-up moment of self-esteem.
Without going into too much detail, it’s relevant to know that I had a tortuous childhood, raised by a sociopathic mother who wielded my father like a weapon. Years of constant gaslighting and both verbal and physical denigration, along with severe physical abuse, left me with complex PTSD, anxiety, depression, and chronic pain. So in many ways, achieving even ‘average’ functionality has been a lifelong struggle. On the other hand, the sort of hypervigilance and hypersensitivity that long-term abuse engenders also resulted in my being very skilled at most forms of ‘emotional labor’.
The way the term has been used in this thread seems to cover two concepts that I had separately identified: the first, covering the work of dealing with people, I had dubbed ‘social calculus’ — having recognized by my early twenties that I was doing all kinds of extra labor there (some of it unnecessary, because PTSD, but much of it useful) that never occurred to most people. The second piece, which I came to call ‘captaining’, was more about organization and attention to non-human details — that sort of constant juggling of knowledge and awareness and research and forethought that keeps daily life from being a procession of oops and fail.
(Aside: It’s so nice to be describing this to an audience that I know will understand exactly what I’m talking about. :) )
Anyway. The feeling of being ‘broken’ by the lingering effects of my childhood has never quite dissipated. The stuff that I was good at, like social calculus, or captaining, was rarely or never valued by the other people in my life, and the things that were societally and personally valued — like bringing in a large paycheck — were extra-difficult for me. (I am extremely poorly suited to corporate workplaces, physically, mentally, and temperamentally, and though I’ve managed it off and on, sometimes for years at a time, it’s never been a source of confidence.)
Currently I am living with my cismale partner of almost fifteen years. Like almost every m/f couple in existence, I railed for years about the unequal division of labor — the lack of help with housework, children, pets, etc., when I was also desperately paddling to keep my nose above water in a corporate job that I mostly hated. (Note that these were actually his children, not mine, and at this point I’m of the strong opinion that nothing in the whole world requires more emotional labor than the stepchildren/divorced dad/ex-wife configuration. But that’s a whole other story.)
The children are out of our house now — one in college, one in high school living full time with her mother — and I haven’t worked at a day job in almost four years; he provides ~85% of our continuing income. When we first discussed this arrangement, it seemed fair to me that if he kept a steady day job (something he has an easier time with than I do but doesn’t at all enjoy), I would do everything else that needed to be done.
Except … in practice it doesn’t feel fair at all. Lately I’d begun to push back on a few things — insisting that he do the dishes once a week on Sunday, pushing him to take responsibility for one of the two daily pet-feedings, etc. The problem with this is that he still believes the day job/everything else division is an equitable one, so it’s like pulling teeth to get him to agree to anything more. I have been trying to explain how exhausting the logistical ‘captaining’ part is, but although he is occasionally appreciative when I report having handled something, mostly he just expects it, and I don’t think he has any concept of how much mental work is really involved, because it’s not something he’s ever done at more than a 10-15% level.
But until this thread it hadn’t really occurred to me that I should factor in the value of all the emotional labor I do to maintain our relationship, or other relationships that he benefits from. He does make some effort to keep in touch with his daughters, but that’s it. I refused to ever take on the responsibility of maintaining his relationship with his extended family (and fortunately have not suffered as greatly as most people here from expectations that I would, as the woman, do that … possibly because I think his first wife was not really inclined to take that on either), but all the friendships are on me. (Aside from one aunt, I have completely disowned my own family-of-origin, so friendships, mostly with women, have always been paramount.) Mister OrchidFox has activity buddies (soccer teammates), but his only actual friendships are piggybacking on mine, and he does absolutely nothing to maintain them. Which means that I am his go-to person for absolutely every emotional need ever. And ofc because Male, at least two-thirds of the time I have to do all the work of noticing there’s a problem he’s not communicating, and walking him through the steps of discovering what it is and what to do about it, because otherwise he just goes around being pissy for no apparent reason.
So that’s why I feel like I’ve had a rare self-esteem level-up. (I could almost chart the progress of my life by them, about one per decade — teens, twenties, thirties — and I guess this is the one for my forties.) The idea that all of this emotional labor has value and should be actively acknowledged, considered, and included in calculations of fairness within my partnership is … empowering.
And I’m starting to really shake up the status quo. If anyone’s interested (?) I can talk more later about how that’s going.
posted by orchidfox at 10:29 AM on August 7, 2015 [55 favorites]
Without going into too much detail, it’s relevant to know that I had a tortuous childhood, raised by a sociopathic mother who wielded my father like a weapon. Years of constant gaslighting and both verbal and physical denigration, along with severe physical abuse, left me with complex PTSD, anxiety, depression, and chronic pain. So in many ways, achieving even ‘average’ functionality has been a lifelong struggle. On the other hand, the sort of hypervigilance and hypersensitivity that long-term abuse engenders also resulted in my being very skilled at most forms of ‘emotional labor’.
The way the term has been used in this thread seems to cover two concepts that I had separately identified: the first, covering the work of dealing with people, I had dubbed ‘social calculus’ — having recognized by my early twenties that I was doing all kinds of extra labor there (some of it unnecessary, because PTSD, but much of it useful) that never occurred to most people. The second piece, which I came to call ‘captaining’, was more about organization and attention to non-human details — that sort of constant juggling of knowledge and awareness and research and forethought that keeps daily life from being a procession of oops and fail.
(Aside: It’s so nice to be describing this to an audience that I know will understand exactly what I’m talking about. :) )
Anyway. The feeling of being ‘broken’ by the lingering effects of my childhood has never quite dissipated. The stuff that I was good at, like social calculus, or captaining, was rarely or never valued by the other people in my life, and the things that were societally and personally valued — like bringing in a large paycheck — were extra-difficult for me. (I am extremely poorly suited to corporate workplaces, physically, mentally, and temperamentally, and though I’ve managed it off and on, sometimes for years at a time, it’s never been a source of confidence.)
Currently I am living with my cismale partner of almost fifteen years. Like almost every m/f couple in existence, I railed for years about the unequal division of labor — the lack of help with housework, children, pets, etc., when I was also desperately paddling to keep my nose above water in a corporate job that I mostly hated. (Note that these were actually his children, not mine, and at this point I’m of the strong opinion that nothing in the whole world requires more emotional labor than the stepchildren/divorced dad/ex-wife configuration. But that’s a whole other story.)
The children are out of our house now — one in college, one in high school living full time with her mother — and I haven’t worked at a day job in almost four years; he provides ~85% of our continuing income. When we first discussed this arrangement, it seemed fair to me that if he kept a steady day job (something he has an easier time with than I do but doesn’t at all enjoy), I would do everything else that needed to be done.
Except … in practice it doesn’t feel fair at all. Lately I’d begun to push back on a few things — insisting that he do the dishes once a week on Sunday, pushing him to take responsibility for one of the two daily pet-feedings, etc. The problem with this is that he still believes the day job/everything else division is an equitable one, so it’s like pulling teeth to get him to agree to anything more. I have been trying to explain how exhausting the logistical ‘captaining’ part is, but although he is occasionally appreciative when I report having handled something, mostly he just expects it, and I don’t think he has any concept of how much mental work is really involved, because it’s not something he’s ever done at more than a 10-15% level.
But until this thread it hadn’t really occurred to me that I should factor in the value of all the emotional labor I do to maintain our relationship, or other relationships that he benefits from. He does make some effort to keep in touch with his daughters, but that’s it. I refused to ever take on the responsibility of maintaining his relationship with his extended family (and fortunately have not suffered as greatly as most people here from expectations that I would, as the woman, do that … possibly because I think his first wife was not really inclined to take that on either), but all the friendships are on me. (Aside from one aunt, I have completely disowned my own family-of-origin, so friendships, mostly with women, have always been paramount.) Mister OrchidFox has activity buddies (soccer teammates), but his only actual friendships are piggybacking on mine, and he does absolutely nothing to maintain them. Which means that I am his go-to person for absolutely every emotional need ever. And ofc because Male, at least two-thirds of the time I have to do all the work of noticing there’s a problem he’s not communicating, and walking him through the steps of discovering what it is and what to do about it, because otherwise he just goes around being pissy for no apparent reason.
So that’s why I feel like I’ve had a rare self-esteem level-up. (I could almost chart the progress of my life by them, about one per decade — teens, twenties, thirties — and I guess this is the one for my forties.) The idea that all of this emotional labor has value and should be actively acknowledged, considered, and included in calculations of fairness within my partnership is … empowering.
And I’m starting to really shake up the status quo. If anyone’s interested (?) I can talk more later about how that’s going.
posted by orchidfox at 10:29 AM on August 7, 2015 [55 favorites]
nothing in the whole world requires more emotional labor than the stepchildren/divorced dad/ex-wife configuration
My personal theory (and this is obviously not true in all cases) is because the men who end up divorced in middle age with the "harpy" ex-wives tend to be the men who got there because they did little to no emotional labor in their first marriage.
posted by MsMolly at 10:36 AM on August 7, 2015 [18 favorites]
My personal theory (and this is obviously not true in all cases) is because the men who end up divorced in middle age with the "harpy" ex-wives tend to be the men who got there because they did little to no emotional labor in their first marriage.
posted by MsMolly at 10:36 AM on August 7, 2015 [18 favorites]
i listen to the hilarious and amazing podcast this is the read with crissle and kid fury every week and ever since this thread it's been very interesting to listen to the listener letters portion.
for instance, this week there were two people who wrote in looking for advice. the first was a wife and mother - there had been tension about how her baby's 1st birthday would go and it ended up with her mother in law not attending the party and her husband becoming angry at his mom about it. the letter writer wanted to know if it was appropriate for her to go behind her husband's back to smooth things over with her mother-in-law. and i mean, that's layers on layers of emotional labor! to crissle & kid fury's credit they told her that the relationship between her husband and his mother was his responsibility, but as they're all family she has every right to prod her husband to figure out a way to move forward if she wants.
the second one was about someone who is dating a guy for three years and their friend group accepts their boyfriend 100% - always willing to hang out with them as a couple when the boyfriend is available. lately the boyfriend has been working more hours and hasn't been able to go to the gatherings. the boyfriend is all mad because he feels left out. and here's the kicker, the person writing the letter points out that the boyfriend never takes the burden of planning anything on himself, he's just mad that things other people are planning aren't worked around his schedule. again to crisse & kid fury's credit they told the letter writer that the boyfriend should get over it and start planning shit if he wants it to go better.
posted by nadawi at 10:51 AM on August 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
for instance, this week there were two people who wrote in looking for advice. the first was a wife and mother - there had been tension about how her baby's 1st birthday would go and it ended up with her mother in law not attending the party and her husband becoming angry at his mom about it. the letter writer wanted to know if it was appropriate for her to go behind her husband's back to smooth things over with her mother-in-law. and i mean, that's layers on layers of emotional labor! to crissle & kid fury's credit they told her that the relationship between her husband and his mother was his responsibility, but as they're all family she has every right to prod her husband to figure out a way to move forward if she wants.
the second one was about someone who is dating a guy for three years and their friend group accepts their boyfriend 100% - always willing to hang out with them as a couple when the boyfriend is available. lately the boyfriend has been working more hours and hasn't been able to go to the gatherings. the boyfriend is all mad because he feels left out. and here's the kicker, the person writing the letter points out that the boyfriend never takes the burden of planning anything on himself, he's just mad that things other people are planning aren't worked around his schedule. again to crisse & kid fury's credit they told the letter writer that the boyfriend should get over it and start planning shit if he wants it to go better.
posted by nadawi at 10:51 AM on August 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
OMG, I adore the Read!!! Yes, I found the same thing when I listened to the Listener Letters.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:59 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Deoridhe at 1:59 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Article in The Atlantic about jobs being automated - it sounds like some things requiring emotional labor, women's work, is harder to automate.
posted by rmd1023 at 2:47 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 2:47 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
That puts me in mind of the story on NPR recently about the computer therapist being piloted by the military. When do we actually need real emotional labor, and when is the illusion of emotional labor sufficient?
posted by jeoc at 6:08 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jeoc at 6:08 PM on August 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe this is an Ask but the inner me that does best with bright boundaries but doesn't always know how to draw them wants some sort of criteria to work from around EL. 'This is OK. This is definitely NOT. This [situation] depends.' On further reflection I suspect about half of the relationship and family asks are directly related to EL so no, there isn't that I am aware of, straightforward checklist around this stuff.
It's also part of why I think telling someone to read this whole thread is somewhat disingenuous, and I say that as someone who has followed it, read almost all the links in the comments and gone searching for other material (I needed a hobby for the last three weeks, this was a good time-absorber.). I think it is especially disingenuous and actually really limiting for folks who for neurological reasons can't read this much or handle this much material. Yes, Cliff Notes/Spark Notes is no substitute for not reading the book, but wow did it help me point up stuff I missed in the text. In their copious spare time someone can write a best-of for this thread that pulls the themes and stories together that's shorter than what is now probably north of 300k words.
I do social justice work and yes, frequently the answer is to go do the homework and don't cheat, but the sheer volume of the homework can drive people away. I don't want to do that but I also don't want to do the work for them and then they feel like their did their part when they haven't (EL imbalance in a nutshell). I want there to be a middle ground around this material, like is mentioned up thread about how ultimatums aren't useful. For me personally as much as the folks around me because I don't have the time or the emotional & intellectual energy to re-read this whole thread again but even sending it out to close friends who get it is daunting.
posted by ladyriffraff at 6:48 PM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's also part of why I think telling someone to read this whole thread is somewhat disingenuous, and I say that as someone who has followed it, read almost all the links in the comments and gone searching for other material (I needed a hobby for the last three weeks, this was a good time-absorber.). I think it is especially disingenuous and actually really limiting for folks who for neurological reasons can't read this much or handle this much material. Yes, Cliff Notes/Spark Notes is no substitute for not reading the book, but wow did it help me point up stuff I missed in the text. In their copious spare time someone can write a best-of for this thread that pulls the themes and stories together that's shorter than what is now probably north of 300k words.
I do social justice work and yes, frequently the answer is to go do the homework and don't cheat, but the sheer volume of the homework can drive people away. I don't want to do that but I also don't want to do the work for them and then they feel like their did their part when they haven't (EL imbalance in a nutshell). I want there to be a middle ground around this material, like is mentioned up thread about how ultimatums aren't useful. For me personally as much as the folks around me because I don't have the time or the emotional & intellectual energy to re-read this whole thread again but even sending it out to close friends who get it is daunting.
posted by ladyriffraff at 6:48 PM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
As I've said earlier my partner is a good guy so I already feel the share of emotional labour is equitable. But last night a thing happened and I told him how I felt about it. He said "Sorry. Now I feel shitty." So, as I have been socialised to do, I automatically replied "Oh no, don't feel shitty, it's ok." Then I stopped and said "Actually, if you feel shitty about it then that's fine. It's not up to me to make you not feel shitty about it. I'm just telling you how I felt so if that makes you feel bad then that's for you to deal with." He said "That's fair and I'll be more considerate of X in future." It felt so good to have the awareness of what I was doing and why and be able to say "Actually, nope." It feels like gaining a new superpower and one that I think will actually make our relationship even stronger. Once more, I love this thread with the heat of a thousand suns.
I totally love this story and am super happy for you and I love that you described as a superpower. I've also felt that way in the last couple of week where in various situations in my life I have basically just thought to myself, "No. No more." It is a huge mental shift and it is for sure powerful. It's maybe a cheesy analogy but I really feel in some ways like the chains have dropped off me. Maybe it's just because it's summer, but I feel kind of light and free and I love it.
Also, apropros of probably nothing, I keep thinking of this tweet I saw a few weeks ago which gives me life every time I look at it.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:50 PM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
I totally love this story and am super happy for you and I love that you described as a superpower. I've also felt that way in the last couple of week where in various situations in my life I have basically just thought to myself, "No. No more." It is a huge mental shift and it is for sure powerful. It's maybe a cheesy analogy but I really feel in some ways like the chains have dropped off me. Maybe it's just because it's summer, but I feel kind of light and free and I love it.
Also, apropros of probably nothing, I keep thinking of this tweet I saw a few weeks ago which gives me life every time I look at it.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:50 PM on August 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ladyriffraff, you may find this recent Ask useful, and the compendium made from it.
posted by Thella at 7:39 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Thella at 7:39 PM on August 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Thanks Thella, I have read that (and linked to it earlier in the thread) but it's coming from the other direction. The checklist started out as a 'as a baseline human in society I should ideally be doing X' and I think I'm asking about the upper bound. I know some of this is my neuro issues and family history (I do so much better with broad guidelines - it makes me a good project manager). Anyway, don't know that this is the place to hash it out but did want to better explain myself. Blood sugar is a good thing.
posted by ladyriffraff at 9:15 PM on August 7, 2015
posted by ladyriffraff at 9:15 PM on August 7, 2015
In their copious spare time someone can write a best-of for this thread that pulls the themes and stories together that's shorter than what is now probably north of 300k words.
One possible entry point for somebody who doesn't feel up to reading the whole thing would be to skim it looking for highly-favorited comments.
Yes, there's the eternal ongoing debate about favorites and what they mean. Being realistic, a comment with a lot of favorites is a comment that a lot of people paid attention to, one way or another.
posted by Lexica at 9:22 PM on August 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
One possible entry point for somebody who doesn't feel up to reading the whole thing would be to skim it looking for highly-favorited comments.
Yes, there's the eternal ongoing debate about favorites and what they mean. Being realistic, a comment with a lot of favorites is a comment that a lot of people paid attention to, one way or another.
posted by Lexica at 9:22 PM on August 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ladyriffraff, yes, I wish we could synthesize all this wisdom into a coherent essay or short book (perhaps one of the writers among us will?) but it’s not an easy thing to tackle (besides the enormous PDF of this thread which is great!) I’ve been struggling just trying to distill my own experience into a small post after a lifetime of not really being able to find the words, and the men in my life not really having the tools to listen.
One small but pivotal (for me) story from the past: my at-the-time boyfriend took an autism spectrum self-assessment test that was floating around the internet (maybe it was this one? I’m not sure.) and his score came up in the borderline “you may possibly be in the Asperger-ish” range. Not being entirely self-aware, he was a bit incredulous at this and showed it to me, needing reassurance and comfort (which of course I gave). I quietly took the test myself and came up with a score in the “you should speak to a professional, but you definitely have Asperger’s” range. I didn’t share that with Boyfriend as he wasn’t in a listening mood (in retrospect, I realize he rarely was).
Fast forward a few years: by this point we were no longer dating but, after a short break, trying to make it work as friends (i.e. me giving him enormous emotional support with very little in return) and I was professionally diagnosed with, among other things, Asperger’s. I was having a hard time processing the diagnosis and confided in him, since I needed the perspective of someone who had known me very well for a relatively long time. Instead of the comfort and acceptance I needed, he yelled, “That’s RIDICULOUS! You’re the most kind, thoughtful, empathetic person I know!! She [the person who diagnosed me] doesn’t now what she’s talking about!” OK, A) thanks for the total lack of support and B) yes, because I struggle with it and work on it at it EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. while you sail along on the “boyz will be boyz!!” attitude and have your whole life. I still wonder if he ever got diagnosed himself (I eventually had to cut off contact after he refused to recognize boundaries and his constant demand for EL became too exhausting).
I think that struggle to be thoughtful, kind, etc. is why I have the constant unease that I’m “doing it wrong.” I could never figure out what “it” was, but I now I think that it was EL. So again, thank you all for putting the words together to make this conversation happen.
I’ve also been thinking a lot over the last couple of weeks about EL with regard to safety (which I think was mentioned upthread a couple of places), which was something that boyfriend in particular was really oblivious about. So much work! When I take a long time getting ready, it’s not only about trying to fit in socially or be physically comfortable, it’s also about feeling safe. What if I have to (who knows why) come home alone on the subway late at night? What if my bag is stolen? So many what ifs, big and small, to be prepared for.
By the way, thanks to jaguar above for reminding me of Bad Feminist. I picked it up at the bookstore yesterday and so far it’s fantastic.
posted by rafaella gabriela sarsaparilla at 6:28 AM on August 8, 2015 [26 favorites]
One small but pivotal (for me) story from the past: my at-the-time boyfriend took an autism spectrum self-assessment test that was floating around the internet (maybe it was this one? I’m not sure.) and his score came up in the borderline “you may possibly be in the Asperger-ish” range. Not being entirely self-aware, he was a bit incredulous at this and showed it to me, needing reassurance and comfort (which of course I gave). I quietly took the test myself and came up with a score in the “you should speak to a professional, but you definitely have Asperger’s” range. I didn’t share that with Boyfriend as he wasn’t in a listening mood (in retrospect, I realize he rarely was).
Fast forward a few years: by this point we were no longer dating but, after a short break, trying to make it work as friends (i.e. me giving him enormous emotional support with very little in return) and I was professionally diagnosed with, among other things, Asperger’s. I was having a hard time processing the diagnosis and confided in him, since I needed the perspective of someone who had known me very well for a relatively long time. Instead of the comfort and acceptance I needed, he yelled, “That’s RIDICULOUS! You’re the most kind, thoughtful, empathetic person I know!! She [the person who diagnosed me] doesn’t now what she’s talking about!” OK, A) thanks for the total lack of support and B) yes, because I struggle with it and work on it at it EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. while you sail along on the “boyz will be boyz!!” attitude and have your whole life. I still wonder if he ever got diagnosed himself (I eventually had to cut off contact after he refused to recognize boundaries and his constant demand for EL became too exhausting).
I think that struggle to be thoughtful, kind, etc. is why I have the constant unease that I’m “doing it wrong.” I could never figure out what “it” was, but I now I think that it was EL. So again, thank you all for putting the words together to make this conversation happen.
I’ve also been thinking a lot over the last couple of weeks about EL with regard to safety (which I think was mentioned upthread a couple of places), which was something that boyfriend in particular was really oblivious about. So much work! When I take a long time getting ready, it’s not only about trying to fit in socially or be physically comfortable, it’s also about feeling safe. What if I have to (who knows why) come home alone on the subway late at night? What if my bag is stolen? So many what ifs, big and small, to be prepared for.
By the way, thanks to jaguar above for reminding me of Bad Feminist. I picked it up at the bookstore yesterday and so far it’s fantastic.
posted by rafaella gabriela sarsaparilla at 6:28 AM on August 8, 2015 [26 favorites]
+$5 here too. I *intended* to become a member for several years but this thread - and the paid emotional labor of moderation that made it so amazing - are why I finally did it.
I am literally a professional feminist activist who read Susan Maushart's "Wifework" 10 years ago, and yet this thread has been one long series of "OMG!!" revelations. For example, I've known for years both that straight men tend to have few close friends who are not their spouses, and that older straight men are more likely to die when their spouse dies than straight women are, but I'd never connected "refuses to send birthday cards or do any work to maintain friendships" and "literally dies younger."
My war story: I recently started dating after a 5-year hiatus with the determination of not getting into a sexist, unequal relationship AGAIN. And yet, and yet... 2 months into the new relationship, I realized (with the help of this thread) that I was doing all of the cooking, cleaning, sex-related work, giving of affection, sympathizing, planning - everything we have been talking about in this thread. I even sent him this thread and he actually read it (as of a week ago or thereabouts) and started making comments about how he needed to step up his housework and family obligations - but no change in our relationship.
I realized I was basically camping when I visited his house: bringing all my food, cooking it without the right utensils, sleeping on sheets that made my skin crawl, holding the bathroom door closed because it doesn't latch, etc. I decided to insist on him providing food and clean sheets, so after a series of hints ("Hey, I like this kind of food!" and asking about the sheets and discovering he had only one set and giving him an old set of sheets I never used), I told him outright: "Next time I come over, I want food in the fridge and clean sheets on the bed."
When I arrived? He had changed the bottom sheet, but for some reason hadn't put on the top sheet. Which would have been fine (some people don't like top sheets) except he also did not wash the duvet cover (also gross). Food was indeed in the fridge, but it was never going to exit the fridge without my direct intervention. After several hints that I was hungry, I outright asked him what we were going to eat, got an answer, and waited for him to take the next action. Nothing happened, so I asked him if he wanted to cook or do dishes (most of what was needed to cook was dirty). He picked dishes. So I began cooking, while he... WASHED ONLY HALF THE DISHES. So each time I needed a thing which was not clean, I would patiently ask, "Is there a clean spoon?" "No." *wait a beat* "Can you wash one for me?" "Yes."
I got home and thought, wow, how can I be 37 and this educated and a feminist and STILL wake up one morning and realize that I am doing. All. The. Work. Again.
So, because I really like sex, I didn't end the relationship but I completely renegotiated so it is around me getting sex without any unpaid emotional labor on my part. I will not go to his house until it is clean and comfortable, when he comes to my house he will bring enough food for both of us and do all the work of preparing it and cleaning up after, he will change the sheets before he goes, he will buy and bring his own damned condoms, etc. I'm staying aware that I'm still doing all the work of creating a clean, comfortable place to spend time in - laundry, housework, decorating, etc. - and that I've got 2 months of UEL credit that he needs to repay. We'll see how it goes, but I'm already happier and lighter feeling.
Thanks, Jess! Thanks, MeFi!
posted by star nose mole at 6:58 AM on August 8, 2015 [77 favorites]
I am literally a professional feminist activist who read Susan Maushart's "Wifework" 10 years ago, and yet this thread has been one long series of "OMG!!" revelations. For example, I've known for years both that straight men tend to have few close friends who are not their spouses, and that older straight men are more likely to die when their spouse dies than straight women are, but I'd never connected "refuses to send birthday cards or do any work to maintain friendships" and "literally dies younger."
My war story: I recently started dating after a 5-year hiatus with the determination of not getting into a sexist, unequal relationship AGAIN. And yet, and yet... 2 months into the new relationship, I realized (with the help of this thread) that I was doing all of the cooking, cleaning, sex-related work, giving of affection, sympathizing, planning - everything we have been talking about in this thread. I even sent him this thread and he actually read it (as of a week ago or thereabouts) and started making comments about how he needed to step up his housework and family obligations - but no change in our relationship.
I realized I was basically camping when I visited his house: bringing all my food, cooking it without the right utensils, sleeping on sheets that made my skin crawl, holding the bathroom door closed because it doesn't latch, etc. I decided to insist on him providing food and clean sheets, so after a series of hints ("Hey, I like this kind of food!" and asking about the sheets and discovering he had only one set and giving him an old set of sheets I never used), I told him outright: "Next time I come over, I want food in the fridge and clean sheets on the bed."
When I arrived? He had changed the bottom sheet, but for some reason hadn't put on the top sheet. Which would have been fine (some people don't like top sheets) except he also did not wash the duvet cover (also gross). Food was indeed in the fridge, but it was never going to exit the fridge without my direct intervention. After several hints that I was hungry, I outright asked him what we were going to eat, got an answer, and waited for him to take the next action. Nothing happened, so I asked him if he wanted to cook or do dishes (most of what was needed to cook was dirty). He picked dishes. So I began cooking, while he... WASHED ONLY HALF THE DISHES. So each time I needed a thing which was not clean, I would patiently ask, "Is there a clean spoon?" "No." *wait a beat* "Can you wash one for me?" "Yes."
I got home and thought, wow, how can I be 37 and this educated and a feminist and STILL wake up one morning and realize that I am doing. All. The. Work. Again.
So, because I really like sex, I didn't end the relationship but I completely renegotiated so it is around me getting sex without any unpaid emotional labor on my part. I will not go to his house until it is clean and comfortable, when he comes to my house he will bring enough food for both of us and do all the work of preparing it and cleaning up after, he will change the sheets before he goes, he will buy and bring his own damned condoms, etc. I'm staying aware that I'm still doing all the work of creating a clean, comfortable place to spend time in - laundry, housework, decorating, etc. - and that I've got 2 months of UEL credit that he needs to repay. We'll see how it goes, but I'm already happier and lighter feeling.
Thanks, Jess! Thanks, MeFi!
posted by star nose mole at 6:58 AM on August 8, 2015 [77 favorites]
star nose mole - you're bringing to mind all the times I showered at my then-boyfriend's place, and was offered a roll of paper towels to dry off with...
Crones, I dated that guy for years.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:15 AM on August 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
Crones, I dated that guy for years.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:15 AM on August 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
Wow wow wow. Just threw in to say THANK YOU ALL for sharing and this is the best $5 I have spent in ages.
Me?
Have spent many years KNOWING I did not want to be emotionally ground down by or embittered and sad by the thankless tasks expected by family and friends because women do that. My Mom was exhausted and depressed and pretty hapless and inept at keeping up the social parts, but was the emotional core for my brothers in a way I did not quite understand until I read this. She made my brothers feel loved and nurtured and so important. Never "got" that, because I never got that from her.
She made me feel as if I needed to nurture and love and make someone else feel important. I rejected that.
(Thank you Dad- who instinctively understood and was a bit horrified by his own codependency , loved and respected me- and encouraged me to always stand on my own two feet!)
I think the breaking point was my mother showing me how to use the washing machine- to help clean my brothers clothes. They were all shocked I moved out as soon as I had a paycheck- 10-15 years before my older brothers did. Yes, they went from Mom's sandwiches to wife's sandwiches. I believe the younger one married because Mom was too feeble to make those sandwiches.
Yes, we have largely lost touch because I am not doing all the emotional work for them. As I consider the trade offs and how much I am willing to fix that..... I just want to thank you all for giving me the words to better describe it all. It means so much to have those words.
posted by TenaciousB at 10:58 AM on August 8, 2015 [29 favorites]
Me?
Have spent many years KNOWING I did not want to be emotionally ground down by or embittered and sad by the thankless tasks expected by family and friends because women do that. My Mom was exhausted and depressed and pretty hapless and inept at keeping up the social parts, but was the emotional core for my brothers in a way I did not quite understand until I read this. She made my brothers feel loved and nurtured and so important. Never "got" that, because I never got that from her.
She made me feel as if I needed to nurture and love and make someone else feel important. I rejected that.
(Thank you Dad- who instinctively understood and was a bit horrified by his own codependency , loved and respected me- and encouraged me to always stand on my own two feet!)
I think the breaking point was my mother showing me how to use the washing machine- to help clean my brothers clothes. They were all shocked I moved out as soon as I had a paycheck- 10-15 years before my older brothers did. Yes, they went from Mom's sandwiches to wife's sandwiches. I believe the younger one married because Mom was too feeble to make those sandwiches.
Yes, we have largely lost touch because I am not doing all the emotional work for them. As I consider the trade offs and how much I am willing to fix that..... I just want to thank you all for giving me the words to better describe it all. It means so much to have those words.
posted by TenaciousB at 10:58 AM on August 8, 2015 [29 favorites]
"I just want to thank you all for giving me the words to better describe it all. It means so much to have those words."
yup. no words=imaginary problems
posted by irisclara at 11:20 AM on August 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
yup. no words=imaginary problems
posted by irisclara at 11:20 AM on August 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
I think the breaking point was my mother showing me how to use the washing machine- to help clean my brothers clothes
Omg flashback! I remember having to iron my brother's boxer shorts (my Mum is a person who irons literally everything. I, on the other hand, have literally not touched an iron since I left home at 18. I just do not do it because I hated it so much growing up). Anyway the system was that you put everyone's clothes in their own pile as you ironed them, then when you were done you brought them to the person's bedroom and set them on the bed for them to put away. And one time when I was maybe 16 I was (as usual) moaning to my Mum that my brother didn't have to do anything and asked if he could at least bring the piles of done ironing to our rooms (me, my Mum and sister) and she said no because he would be embarrassed as our knickers and bras were in the piles. AS I WAS IRONING HIS BOXERS!! Oh Lord, that's over 20 years ago and I'm actually raging at that memory right now.
posted by billiebee at 11:45 AM on August 8, 2015 [56 favorites]
Omg flashback! I remember having to iron my brother's boxer shorts (my Mum is a person who irons literally everything. I, on the other hand, have literally not touched an iron since I left home at 18. I just do not do it because I hated it so much growing up). Anyway the system was that you put everyone's clothes in their own pile as you ironed them, then when you were done you brought them to the person's bedroom and set them on the bed for them to put away. And one time when I was maybe 16 I was (as usual) moaning to my Mum that my brother didn't have to do anything and asked if he could at least bring the piles of done ironing to our rooms (me, my Mum and sister) and she said no because he would be embarrassed as our knickers and bras were in the piles. AS I WAS IRONING HIS BOXERS!! Oh Lord, that's over 20 years ago and I'm actually raging at that memory right now.
posted by billiebee at 11:45 AM on August 8, 2015 [56 favorites]
HOW IS MY UNDERWEAR LESS MODEST THAN MY BROTHERS??????? HOW CAN THAT BE A THING!!!!!!?????????????
ahem. yes. billiebee, that has brought some memories up.
posted by nadawi at 11:55 AM on August 8, 2015 [14 favorites]
ahem. yes. billiebee, that has brought some memories up.
posted by nadawi at 11:55 AM on August 8, 2015 [14 favorites]
also "everyone has to stay in church clothes and keep them neat on sundays" is not the same restrictions from sons to daughters and i always knew it was bullshit. "you tore your tights!" well no shit! i'm 6 and i have 2 brothers less than 3 years older than me climbing trees right in front of my face and taunting me because i can't!
posted by nadawi at 11:57 AM on August 8, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:57 AM on August 8, 2015 [18 favorites]
Wow. Go away for a few days and the comment count jumps from 1100 to nearly 2000.
I didn't think I'd have anything to add, but I stumbled across this today on Facebook. It's lighthearted but so on point:
Link
posted by Schadenfreudian at 2:40 PM on August 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
I didn't think I'd have anything to add, but I stumbled across this today on Facebook. It's lighthearted but so on point:
Link
posted by Schadenfreudian at 2:40 PM on August 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
So I asked Mister Orchidfox to read this post as a sort of introduction to the concepts in this thread (because I know the thread itself exceeded his coping length several hundred thousand words ago).
And after he’d read the whole thing, he turned to me and said, “Well, I’m pretty sure that I used to do a lot of that stuff when I was last single [ed. note: in college, so about thirty years ago]. It feels like advice for what to do when you’re on your own.”
… it was a choice between laughing or crying. I picked laughing. But oh my god.
posted by orchidfox at 4:58 PM on August 8, 2015 [43 favorites]
And after he’d read the whole thing, he turned to me and said, “Well, I’m pretty sure that I used to do a lot of that stuff when I was last single [ed. note: in college, so about thirty years ago]. It feels like advice for what to do when you’re on your own.”
… it was a choice between laughing or crying. I picked laughing. But oh my god.
posted by orchidfox at 4:58 PM on August 8, 2015 [43 favorites]
HOW IS MY UNDERWEAR LESS MODEST THAN MY BROTHERS??????? HOW CAN THAT BE A THING!!!!!!?????????????
I've never been clear why women's underwear is so often small scraps of fabric that all too often creep up, why women get complaints about panty lines and how we should wear thongs to avoid this, why we're expected to wear clothes that will show our underwear easily but shamed if it does, how much we're expected to pay for underwear, how much work we're expected to put into shopping...
Anyway, I switched to boxer briefs a few years ago and have never looked back.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:02 PM on August 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've never been clear why women's underwear is so often small scraps of fabric that all too often creep up, why women get complaints about panty lines and how we should wear thongs to avoid this, why we're expected to wear clothes that will show our underwear easily but shamed if it does, how much we're expected to pay for underwear, how much work we're expected to put into shopping...
Anyway, I switched to boxer briefs a few years ago and have never looked back.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:02 PM on August 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
Sheets? Did someone say sheets? I have a wee bonbon of a story that involves sheets that I picked up from my friend. It boggled me at the time but sure makes more sense through this lens.
She was long distance with her boyfriend and came up to visit him. She noticed that the sheets looked rather mungy and, being a person with skin sensitive to break outs, asked him if they'd been washed recently. He told her yes, he'd cleaned them right before she came up! She wasn't sure she really believed this given how yellow they looked, but went to bed.
The next day her back broke out horribly. I thought you washed those sheets! she cried. I did, he said. I Febreezed them right before you came up!
The kicker is this dude was in grad school for psychology, ostensibly to enter a career centered around emotional labor, but in many instances either refused or could not do the emotional labor or basic housework to make my friend feel loved. My heart would break when she would have conversations with me wherein she wondered if a half hour phone conversation a week was too demanding and unreasonable, as he would feign to be too busy for even that level of contact despite describing trips to bars and movies to her, and I would desperately try to explain that it wasn't too much to ask, not at all.
posted by foxfirefey at 7:12 PM on August 8, 2015 [14 favorites]
She was long distance with her boyfriend and came up to visit him. She noticed that the sheets looked rather mungy and, being a person with skin sensitive to break outs, asked him if they'd been washed recently. He told her yes, he'd cleaned them right before she came up! She wasn't sure she really believed this given how yellow they looked, but went to bed.
The next day her back broke out horribly. I thought you washed those sheets! she cried. I did, he said. I Febreezed them right before you came up!
The kicker is this dude was in grad school for psychology, ostensibly to enter a career centered around emotional labor, but in many instances either refused or could not do the emotional labor or basic housework to make my friend feel loved. My heart would break when she would have conversations with me wherein she wondered if a half hour phone conversation a week was too demanding and unreasonable, as he would feign to be too busy for even that level of contact despite describing trips to bars and movies to her, and I would desperately try to explain that it wasn't too much to ask, not at all.
posted by foxfirefey at 7:12 PM on August 8, 2015 [14 favorites]
I can't stop thinking about this thread. So I'm going to make one more lengthy comment before it closes. And then I really must get back to my preparations for finding a new job. But I've joined the Crone Island Google group now, and I look forward to continuing the discussion there when I have time.
Athanassiel mentioned polyamory earlier in the thread. For me, polyamory was like a crash course in handling vast amounts of unpaid emotional labour. Small wonder I gave it up, after realising that I, too, had made the mistake of thinking that intellectually deciding it made sense was sufficient to make it work in practice. I could probably write an entire book about the mistakes I made in the days I practiced polyamory. Maybe I will one day. But for this comment, I want to focus elsewhere.
I've been a feminist ever since I was an adolescent in the 1980s and discovered my mom's copy of Our Bodies, Our Selves. (Thank you so much for buying that book, Mom. I don't know if I've ever told you how much it changed my life, especially since I was subsisting on a steady diet of Cosmopolitan magazines in those days.) From Shere Hite, I learned about the "unequal emotional contract" between men and women, and I've read many other feminist writings about emotional labour over the years (including Susan Maushart's Wifework - thank you for mentioning that book! I had it on my shelf and have been re-visiting it today). And I've been angry about it all, at some level, for pretty much my entire life.
But something about the timing of this thread, and the combination of all these personal stories, completed a cycle of some sort for me...and as a result, I feel like I now occupy uncharted ground. Very exciting uncharted ground, too, because I feel like I can now navigate more skillfully, thanks to this thread. I've come to appreciate my singlehood more deeply than I ever thought possible, due to the freedom from unreciprocated marital emotional labour that it permits. As I wrote in my giddy comment upthread, every last remnant of resignation or resentment about my singlehood is now gone, and in its wake is an exuberance and love of life I've never before experienced.
It's truly heady stuff. So heady, in fact, that even if I were to kick the bucket tomorrow, I'd die happy: I'd be grateful that I managed to live long enough to experience this kind of contentment for reasons that are all my own, and have absolutely nothing to do with men. The feeling is especially sweet given that I survived a terrible divorce-related grief process (warning: self-link) during which - for the first year, at least - a "good" day was one in which I could go a full hour without a single thought of suicide. If someone had told me in those days that one day I would feel genuinely delighted to be single, I wouldn't have believed them. Not even for a second. But nonetheless, here I am, happy as can be, with no romantic prospects on the horizon whatsoever.
A few days ago, I returned from a great Pagan polytheist conference where I presented some of my creative work, and it was thoroughly appreciated. I got so many compliments, and felt I was very much amongst "my kind of people." More heady stuff.
This is how I want to live out the rest of my life: devoted to my religion and my art. I will never again willingly or unconsciously take on unpaid, unreciprocated emotional labour that interferes with my religious and creative work. And I have this thread to thank for the deepened level of commitment to this path.
I aspire to be one of those late-bloomer crones. I'm particularly inspired by people like Vanda Scaravelli, who took up yoga at the age I am right now (47), continued with it until her death at 91, and wrote a brilliant book about it called Awakening the Spine. And Mary Nohl, who created a magical art environment in her home and garden that was dubbed "the witch's house," and lived there alone until she died at 87. And Vali Myers, "the witch of Positano", who was a recluse and a rebel spirit, and lived for her art. And there are so many more!
I knew when I was very young that I wanted to spend my life writing and making art. I had several wonderful teachers who told me I had talent, and strongly encouraged me to do that. But I figured out pretty quickly that I lived in a culture where art was mostly considered frivolous or indulgent, and would always have to take a back seat to getting a "real job" and making money. So I faced an uphill battle no matter what course of action I chose. My first husband ostensibly supported my art...yet he also undermined my creativity in all kinds of subtle and not-so-subtle ways. But that's another story for another time.
As I think back on that doomed relationship from so long ago, I want to revisit the question that was posed upthread about why women put up with the kind of bullshit we see in the stories in this thread.
I have often wondered this about my own situation. Why DID I put up with it?
It's difficult to disentangle the systemic and cultural reasons from the individual ones. But with age and hindsight I can offer a glimpse into a little bit of the inner process I went through in relation to both of my marriages. It went something like this:
Voice of my Demon Muse:*
I don't mean to give the impression that I married for money in any kind of hard-nosed cynical way. I did indeed love both of my ex-husbands quite deeply. I loved the second one so profoundly that I would have stepped in front of a speeding bullet for him without hesitation. (And confusingly, that love always existed right alongside the fact that I hated feeling like a dog begging for scraps of his affection.) I'm just saying that I knew that my choices as a woman, and as an artist who wanted creative freedom, were constrained into a narrower range than those of men. So I chose what I perceived as the best options available to me at the time.
As Natalie Angier puts it in her brilliant book Woman: An Intimate Geography:
"If women continue to worry that they need a man's money to persist because the playing field remains about as level as the surface of Mars - or Venus, if you prefer - then we can't conclude anything about innate preferences. If women continue to suffer from bag-lady syndrome even as they become prosperous, if they see their wealth as still provisional, still capsizable, and if they still hope to find a man with a dependable income to supplement their own, then we can credit women with intelligence and acumen, for inequities abound and find new and startling permutations even in the most economically advanced countries and among the most highly skilled populations of women."
Access to resources. That's what it comes down to for me, in the final analysis. That's why I put up with so much emotional labour, for so much longer than I should have. I put up with it because being married to a man who earned a living wage - and had good health insurance with benefits that were unavailable to me as a single person - made my life so much easier in most of the day-to-day practical ways. It gave me more free time than I would have had otherwise, and better opportunities to develop my craft as a writer and artist. It was the best of the limited options. (And I write this with awareness of the role my own class, race, and ability privilege played in this analysis.)
There are other factors that came into play, of course. This one that languagehat wrote rang a bell, for example:
Others in this thread mentioned things that played into my decision too: e.g., the basic safety and convenience of sharing a dwelling. And as nadawi mentioned, most women have no models of things going differently - which is profoundly sad, but also true. Even if we do learn we can demand more, as she wrote, where would we find it?
Where, indeed.
The most immediate factor for me, though, was access to resources (money, decent food, good health care, community support, etc.)
In any case, if more women had reliable access to resources that didn't depend on marriage - or on their ability to find paid jobs, for that matter - I'm willing to bet this cultural dynamic would shift in ways that would go a long way toward correcting the imbalance.
What I wouldn't give for a world with an unconditional basic income for everyone. It's something I'm still fighting for, 20 years after I first heard about the concept. And this thread has reaffirmed my commitment to basic income activism, as it could potentially help free women from excessive burdens of unpaid emotional labour, and provide opportunities for them to participate more fully in the arts.
I am horrified at the thought of how much wonderful music, art, dance, etc. our culture could have that we collectively miss out on, on account of so many talented writers and artists needing to take a "real" job to pay the rent and put food on the table. Yet the Puritan work ethic still has such a tenacious chokehold on our culture that most people have very little sympathy for the dilemma of the artist. They say: "You want to be paid to sit around and doodle all day?" Why, yes! Yes I do! And I refuse to feel shameful about it. Because that's an essential part of the process through which I produce good writing - the kind of writing my readers appreciate. There is a great deal of invisible labour that happens behind the scenes before I get to the visible labour of typing the words. Besides, I produce much better work when I'm not worried about paying my rent or where my next meal is going to come from.**
But it isn't just me who could benefit from an unconditional basic income. Our entire culture would benefit from this if it were implemented widely. So of course I want everyone else to have that option too. And I'm not worried about laziness. Healthy human beings can only play so many computer games, or spend so many hours lying on the couch, before it starts getting boring and they start wanting to do something productive or creative with their time. With enough of those days of paid doodling, the doodler's skills would improve, and they would eventually be offering something of great value to their community: art. But even if they didn't...what's the harm in making sure everyone has shelter, clothing, food, and access to medical care, regardless of whether or not they are "productive"?
Access to resources. That's the bottom line for me.
* I use this phrase, "demon muse," in the sense that Matt Cardin does in his extraordinary book A Course in Demonic Creativity: A Writer's Guide to the Inner Genius: "...the spirit that inspires a person to do the work for which he or she is uniquely gifted and intended."
** Note that the documentary on Mary Nohl, linked above, mentions that "her father supported Mary in all her projects." Mary mentions that she couldn't make a living doing her art; the thing that enabled her to do it was an inheritance left behind by her family. Without that steady source of support, the immense beauty she created wouldn't even exist.
posted by velvet winter at 7:44 PM on August 8, 2015 [44 favorites]
Athanassiel mentioned polyamory earlier in the thread. For me, polyamory was like a crash course in handling vast amounts of unpaid emotional labour. Small wonder I gave it up, after realising that I, too, had made the mistake of thinking that intellectually deciding it made sense was sufficient to make it work in practice. I could probably write an entire book about the mistakes I made in the days I practiced polyamory. Maybe I will one day. But for this comment, I want to focus elsewhere.
I've been a feminist ever since I was an adolescent in the 1980s and discovered my mom's copy of Our Bodies, Our Selves. (Thank you so much for buying that book, Mom. I don't know if I've ever told you how much it changed my life, especially since I was subsisting on a steady diet of Cosmopolitan magazines in those days.) From Shere Hite, I learned about the "unequal emotional contract" between men and women, and I've read many other feminist writings about emotional labour over the years (including Susan Maushart's Wifework - thank you for mentioning that book! I had it on my shelf and have been re-visiting it today). And I've been angry about it all, at some level, for pretty much my entire life.
But something about the timing of this thread, and the combination of all these personal stories, completed a cycle of some sort for me...and as a result, I feel like I now occupy uncharted ground. Very exciting uncharted ground, too, because I feel like I can now navigate more skillfully, thanks to this thread. I've come to appreciate my singlehood more deeply than I ever thought possible, due to the freedom from unreciprocated marital emotional labour that it permits. As I wrote in my giddy comment upthread, every last remnant of resignation or resentment about my singlehood is now gone, and in its wake is an exuberance and love of life I've never before experienced.
It's truly heady stuff. So heady, in fact, that even if I were to kick the bucket tomorrow, I'd die happy: I'd be grateful that I managed to live long enough to experience this kind of contentment for reasons that are all my own, and have absolutely nothing to do with men. The feeling is especially sweet given that I survived a terrible divorce-related grief process (warning: self-link) during which - for the first year, at least - a "good" day was one in which I could go a full hour without a single thought of suicide. If someone had told me in those days that one day I would feel genuinely delighted to be single, I wouldn't have believed them. Not even for a second. But nonetheless, here I am, happy as can be, with no romantic prospects on the horizon whatsoever.
A few days ago, I returned from a great Pagan polytheist conference where I presented some of my creative work, and it was thoroughly appreciated. I got so many compliments, and felt I was very much amongst "my kind of people." More heady stuff.
This is how I want to live out the rest of my life: devoted to my religion and my art. I will never again willingly or unconsciously take on unpaid, unreciprocated emotional labour that interferes with my religious and creative work. And I have this thread to thank for the deepened level of commitment to this path.
I aspire to be one of those late-bloomer crones. I'm particularly inspired by people like Vanda Scaravelli, who took up yoga at the age I am right now (47), continued with it until her death at 91, and wrote a brilliant book about it called Awakening the Spine. And Mary Nohl, who created a magical art environment in her home and garden that was dubbed "the witch's house," and lived there alone until she died at 87. And Vali Myers, "the witch of Positano", who was a recluse and a rebel spirit, and lived for her art. And there are so many more!
I knew when I was very young that I wanted to spend my life writing and making art. I had several wonderful teachers who told me I had talent, and strongly encouraged me to do that. But I figured out pretty quickly that I lived in a culture where art was mostly considered frivolous or indulgent, and would always have to take a back seat to getting a "real job" and making money. So I faced an uphill battle no matter what course of action I chose. My first husband ostensibly supported my art...yet he also undermined my creativity in all kinds of subtle and not-so-subtle ways. But that's another story for another time.
As I think back on that doomed relationship from so long ago, I want to revisit the question that was posed upthread about why women put up with the kind of bullshit we see in the stories in this thread.
I have often wondered this about my own situation. Why DID I put up with it?
It's difficult to disentangle the systemic and cultural reasons from the individual ones. But with age and hindsight I can offer a glimpse into a little bit of the inner process I went through in relation to both of my marriages. It went something like this:
Voice of my Demon Muse:*
You must write. And draw. And dance. You are a writer. A dancer. An artist. This is what you are here to do. You have gifts to offer to the world - including several books to write - and they are not going to fit into any of the conventional job roles available to you. If you are ever going to be truly happy, you must find a way to develop your talents and deliver your life's work to the world.Cautionary voice:
(This was pretty much a constant refrain. The voice spoke loudly at times, and quietly at others...but would not ever truly leave me alone. Sometimes I called her my "inner two-year-old," because she is so stubborn and rebellious. But I think she's also much, much more than that.)
I know. But how do I do it? This kind of work requires a great deal of free time, and it will be years before it earns me any money (if it ever does). Nobody is going to pay my bills while I learn my crafts. But if I get a full-time job and pay them myself, then most days I end up too tired to do much writing and art. And the only kinds of jobs I can find are ones that have nothing to do with what I love, and/or require me to use up all my creative energy on someone else's projects. There's the artist's dilemma in a nutshell.Demon Muse:
All I can tell you is that you must write. It is your lifeline. You are an artist. It may not be an easy way to live. I can't tell you how to arrange your life so that you can preserve creative freedom. That's up to you. But if you can find the courage to trust me, listen to me, and follow my promptings, I will open many doors for you along the way...when the time is right to do so.Cautionary voice:
Well, that sounds great in theory, but what does it mean in practice? How do I pull it off, practically speaking? I don't see much evidence that the world really works that way. These full-time restaurant and office jobs I've had leave me so depressed, and consume so damn much of my time and energy...and besides, men make more money than women. It would be lovely to have two incomes. So...if I have the option to marry a man - especially in youth, when my "marketability" as a wife is at its peak - and it will make my life so much easier financially, then why not do so?Of course, I wouldn't have been able to articulate any of this so clearly at the time, let alone own it so completely in a public setting. There was always internalised misogynist bullshit like the notion of "gold-diggers" that kept me from being fully honest with myself and others about all of my motives. But at some level I sensed what I was doing, whether or not I was able to put it into words.
I don't mean to give the impression that I married for money in any kind of hard-nosed cynical way. I did indeed love both of my ex-husbands quite deeply. I loved the second one so profoundly that I would have stepped in front of a speeding bullet for him without hesitation. (And confusingly, that love always existed right alongside the fact that I hated feeling like a dog begging for scraps of his affection.) I'm just saying that I knew that my choices as a woman, and as an artist who wanted creative freedom, were constrained into a narrower range than those of men. So I chose what I perceived as the best options available to me at the time.
As Natalie Angier puts it in her brilliant book Woman: An Intimate Geography:
"If women continue to worry that they need a man's money to persist because the playing field remains about as level as the surface of Mars - or Venus, if you prefer - then we can't conclude anything about innate preferences. If women continue to suffer from bag-lady syndrome even as they become prosperous, if they see their wealth as still provisional, still capsizable, and if they still hope to find a man with a dependable income to supplement their own, then we can credit women with intelligence and acumen, for inequities abound and find new and startling permutations even in the most economically advanced countries and among the most highly skilled populations of women."
Access to resources. That's what it comes down to for me, in the final analysis. That's why I put up with so much emotional labour, for so much longer than I should have. I put up with it because being married to a man who earned a living wage - and had good health insurance with benefits that were unavailable to me as a single person - made my life so much easier in most of the day-to-day practical ways. It gave me more free time than I would have had otherwise, and better opportunities to develop my craft as a writer and artist. It was the best of the limited options. (And I write this with awareness of the role my own class, race, and ability privilege played in this analysis.)
There are other factors that came into play, of course. This one that languagehat wrote rang a bell, for example:
...the guy is likely to have an easier time finding another partner, and he is far more likely to find a woman willing to let him get away with shit than she is to find a guy who's significantly better than this one.Yes indeed. (My ex married the woman he left me for. In my bitter, vengeful moments, I remember thinking: Well, at least he has become HER problem now, rather than mine. I'm not proud of this line of thought. Divorce brought out a side of me that I really didn't like. But it also stemmed from years of pent-up frustration about the emotional labour imbalance. In one of the articles linked above there was a comment about "the loneliness of loving for two." Ouch. Yes. That is what most of my married life felt like. I'm so happy to be free of that!)
Others in this thread mentioned things that played into my decision too: e.g., the basic safety and convenience of sharing a dwelling. And as nadawi mentioned, most women have no models of things going differently - which is profoundly sad, but also true. Even if we do learn we can demand more, as she wrote, where would we find it?
Where, indeed.
The most immediate factor for me, though, was access to resources (money, decent food, good health care, community support, etc.)
In any case, if more women had reliable access to resources that didn't depend on marriage - or on their ability to find paid jobs, for that matter - I'm willing to bet this cultural dynamic would shift in ways that would go a long way toward correcting the imbalance.
What I wouldn't give for a world with an unconditional basic income for everyone. It's something I'm still fighting for, 20 years after I first heard about the concept. And this thread has reaffirmed my commitment to basic income activism, as it could potentially help free women from excessive burdens of unpaid emotional labour, and provide opportunities for them to participate more fully in the arts.
I am horrified at the thought of how much wonderful music, art, dance, etc. our culture could have that we collectively miss out on, on account of so many talented writers and artists needing to take a "real" job to pay the rent and put food on the table. Yet the Puritan work ethic still has such a tenacious chokehold on our culture that most people have very little sympathy for the dilemma of the artist. They say: "You want to be paid to sit around and doodle all day?" Why, yes! Yes I do! And I refuse to feel shameful about it. Because that's an essential part of the process through which I produce good writing - the kind of writing my readers appreciate. There is a great deal of invisible labour that happens behind the scenes before I get to the visible labour of typing the words. Besides, I produce much better work when I'm not worried about paying my rent or where my next meal is going to come from.**
But it isn't just me who could benefit from an unconditional basic income. Our entire culture would benefit from this if it were implemented widely. So of course I want everyone else to have that option too. And I'm not worried about laziness. Healthy human beings can only play so many computer games, or spend so many hours lying on the couch, before it starts getting boring and they start wanting to do something productive or creative with their time. With enough of those days of paid doodling, the doodler's skills would improve, and they would eventually be offering something of great value to their community: art. But even if they didn't...what's the harm in making sure everyone has shelter, clothing, food, and access to medical care, regardless of whether or not they are "productive"?
Access to resources. That's the bottom line for me.
* I use this phrase, "demon muse," in the sense that Matt Cardin does in his extraordinary book A Course in Demonic Creativity: A Writer's Guide to the Inner Genius: "...the spirit that inspires a person to do the work for which he or she is uniquely gifted and intended."
** Note that the documentary on Mary Nohl, linked above, mentions that "her father supported Mary in all her projects." Mary mentions that she couldn't make a living doing her art; the thing that enabled her to do it was an inheritance left behind by her family. Without that steady source of support, the immense beauty she created wouldn't even exist.
posted by velvet winter at 7:44 PM on August 8, 2015 [44 favorites]
Great thoughts, velvet winter. Thank you.
posted by Miko at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
My work schedule is weird, and I often end up at the gym during normal business hours, which means I'm often in the locker room when a lot of retired and/or older women are there. I've always loved eavesdropping on their conversations, and apparently something shifted today so that I've become a safe person to include in these conversations, and this thread has made me (internally) label the locker room my own local Crone Island. There's one woman I especially love who's in her 70s and talks about her boyfriend, who lives 100 miles away, which she says is just about the right distance. He brings over a ladder and fixes things in her place when he comes over every week or two; she cooks things and brings them to him when she visits his place every week or two. He would apparently like to move in with her but she likes this current arrangement and has told him so. Another of the locker-room women appeared in our local paper expressing her opposition to some local opposition about something stupid, and when I asked her if that was her photo that I saw, she said, "Yes! I'm opinionated and loud." I replied, "Good for you!" and I think we bonded.
It being a locker room, many of these and similar conversations occur between women in various states of nakedness, and there's a total lack of self-consciousness about it. On a day that I was feeling particularly unlovely, another woman came over as I was changing and said, matter-of-factly, "You are so [...many extravagant hand gestures...] magnificent! I love how different bodies are!" And it was so affirming and wonderful that many months later I still treasure the comment.
So while I'm still a bit of an outsider at my gym, this thread has made me really appreciate that I am at times surrounded by so many awesome women, here and there, who let me access their wisdom and self-confidence and vulnerabilities and laughter.
posted by jaguar at 9:26 PM on August 8, 2015 [56 favorites]
It being a locker room, many of these and similar conversations occur between women in various states of nakedness, and there's a total lack of self-consciousness about it. On a day that I was feeling particularly unlovely, another woman came over as I was changing and said, matter-of-factly, "You are so [...many extravagant hand gestures...] magnificent! I love how different bodies are!" And it was so affirming and wonderful that many months later I still treasure the comment.
So while I'm still a bit of an outsider at my gym, this thread has made me really appreciate that I am at times surrounded by so many awesome women, here and there, who let me access their wisdom and self-confidence and vulnerabilities and laughter.
posted by jaguar at 9:26 PM on August 8, 2015 [56 favorites]
Shiny new member here. Finally made it all the way down to the comments box. And the thing I'm seeing, that shouts the loudest to me, is that I am not alone. That other people have seen and experienced the things that have stood out to me - in fact, sometimes eerily similar, so similar I want to ask who else in here is me. I don't think I want to move to Crone Island because I would miss Grey_thing too much long-term, but there are certainly times that a vacation there (a real one, where pitching in to do the dishes is because I actually want to, not because someone else thinks it's beneath them and either way the dishes have to be done).
I have a lot of unpleasant memories - the thread above about how abusers want a clean slate... well, an ex of mine actually (without using the word abuser, oh no, he was a lovely person, just forgetful and misunderstood and oblivious) said it was unfair that I saw these hurtful things as a pattern, that him doing a good thing should erase the bad things that came before it. And that I was not a good person because I wouldn't let the bad things go. That I was difficult. That I had unrealistic expectations.
But the stories behind that are still really too new and too fresh for me to pick at very much.
So, I have a different story. Once upon a time, a Blue_thing got food poisoning from a bad fast food burger, because her taste in food is not exactly refined, and fast food was one of the few restaurant types that she and her two partners (Gold_thing and Grey_thing) could agree on. The food poisoning was not kind, and bad enough that she had to stay home from work, and resulted in a week where Blue_thing was just about able to keep water down but nothing else. A stone lighter at the end of this week, Blue_thing asked if Gold_thing (who was home from work - Grey_thing was at school but due home soon) could possibly make her something that sounded like it would stay down and provide some energy - a bit of turkey mince would be nice, just plain, nothing fancy - because she didn't even really have the energy to stand at the stove and do it herself.
Gold_thing huffed and puffed about how cooking wasn't his thing, he didn't know how to do it, and Blue_thing said "Just put the mince in a pan and fry it. You know how to do that." So, the clatterings and mumblings from the kitchen ensued, and Grey_thing came home and sat on the couch. Gold_thing came back from the kitchen, and headed upstairs. Blue_thing didn't think much of it, until not-too-long later when Grey_thing ventured into the kitchen to see that the mince was cooking spectacularly. Not on fire, but... well, when the meat touching the pan is black and the meat on top is still frozen ...
Gold_thing came down to see what the noise was, and was:
A) Terribly offended that Blue_thing would not eat the turkey mince he cooked
B) Shocked that apparently cooking mince in a pan involves some level of stirring to ensure even cooking
C) Angry that Grey_thing is interfering with his cooking (by throwing it away!)
D) Did I mention offended that the mince was not being eaten by Blue_thing, who we may recall is recovering from food poisoning?
To this day, long after Gold_thing wandered out of the family to discover pastures new, Grey_thing and I have never quite figured out if this was done deliberately - if Gold_thing thought to himself "I do not want to be asked to cook again, therefore I am going to do this SO badly that they won't DARE."
And another sort of story, as well.
At my place of work, we have a "Just Because Fairy". And the Just Because Fairy brings treats to the office "just because". Often when the emotional temperature in the room is such that having a cookie can significantly improve the mood. It is known that Blue_thing has the Just Because Fairy's phone number, so to speak - or perhaps that the Just Because Fairy's house is on Blue_thing's way to work.
However, I have a very strong objection to being LABELLED as the Just Because Fairy or having people ask me "did you bring those in?" ... simply because I do not want the responsibility of always being the one to surprise the office with treats. Some of the others do occasionally - not nearly as often as I do, and that's likely in part because I genuinely enjoy feeding people I spend more waking hours with than I do with Grey_thing - but it sure would be nice if everyone thought to stop by the Just Because Fairy's house on occasion. Now I have a label for that. It's actual work, EL, that I have been doing, keeping an eye on how everyone feels and bringing treats that are, more often than not, tailored to cheer up the people who most need it by being aware of their favourites...
Maybe the Just Because Fairy will bring me a Snickers sometime.
posted by Blue_thing at 1:45 AM on August 9, 2015 [29 favorites]
I have a lot of unpleasant memories - the thread above about how abusers want a clean slate... well, an ex of mine actually (without using the word abuser, oh no, he was a lovely person, just forgetful and misunderstood and oblivious) said it was unfair that I saw these hurtful things as a pattern, that him doing a good thing should erase the bad things that came before it. And that I was not a good person because I wouldn't let the bad things go. That I was difficult. That I had unrealistic expectations.
But the stories behind that are still really too new and too fresh for me to pick at very much.
So, I have a different story. Once upon a time, a Blue_thing got food poisoning from a bad fast food burger, because her taste in food is not exactly refined, and fast food was one of the few restaurant types that she and her two partners (Gold_thing and Grey_thing) could agree on. The food poisoning was not kind, and bad enough that she had to stay home from work, and resulted in a week where Blue_thing was just about able to keep water down but nothing else. A stone lighter at the end of this week, Blue_thing asked if Gold_thing (who was home from work - Grey_thing was at school but due home soon) could possibly make her something that sounded like it would stay down and provide some energy - a bit of turkey mince would be nice, just plain, nothing fancy - because she didn't even really have the energy to stand at the stove and do it herself.
Gold_thing huffed and puffed about how cooking wasn't his thing, he didn't know how to do it, and Blue_thing said "Just put the mince in a pan and fry it. You know how to do that." So, the clatterings and mumblings from the kitchen ensued, and Grey_thing came home and sat on the couch. Gold_thing came back from the kitchen, and headed upstairs. Blue_thing didn't think much of it, until not-too-long later when Grey_thing ventured into the kitchen to see that the mince was cooking spectacularly. Not on fire, but... well, when the meat touching the pan is black and the meat on top is still frozen ...
Gold_thing came down to see what the noise was, and was:
A) Terribly offended that Blue_thing would not eat the turkey mince he cooked
B) Shocked that apparently cooking mince in a pan involves some level of stirring to ensure even cooking
C) Angry that Grey_thing is interfering with his cooking (by throwing it away!)
D) Did I mention offended that the mince was not being eaten by Blue_thing, who we may recall is recovering from food poisoning?
To this day, long after Gold_thing wandered out of the family to discover pastures new, Grey_thing and I have never quite figured out if this was done deliberately - if Gold_thing thought to himself "I do not want to be asked to cook again, therefore I am going to do this SO badly that they won't DARE."
And another sort of story, as well.
At my place of work, we have a "Just Because Fairy". And the Just Because Fairy brings treats to the office "just because". Often when the emotional temperature in the room is such that having a cookie can significantly improve the mood. It is known that Blue_thing has the Just Because Fairy's phone number, so to speak - or perhaps that the Just Because Fairy's house is on Blue_thing's way to work.
However, I have a very strong objection to being LABELLED as the Just Because Fairy or having people ask me "did you bring those in?" ... simply because I do not want the responsibility of always being the one to surprise the office with treats. Some of the others do occasionally - not nearly as often as I do, and that's likely in part because I genuinely enjoy feeding people I spend more waking hours with than I do with Grey_thing - but it sure would be nice if everyone thought to stop by the Just Because Fairy's house on occasion. Now I have a label for that. It's actual work, EL, that I have been doing, keeping an eye on how everyone feels and bringing treats that are, more often than not, tailored to cheer up the people who most need it by being aware of their favourites...
Maybe the Just Because Fairy will bring me a Snickers sometime.
posted by Blue_thing at 1:45 AM on August 9, 2015 [29 favorites]
Hey, Blue_thing... welcome to the site and the thread!
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:26 AM on August 9, 2015
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:26 AM on August 9, 2015
I've never been clear why women's underwear is so often small scraps of fabric that all too often creep up
i totally agree with all of this. my screaming was more about a time when mine and my brothers' underwear were virtually indistinguishable except mine had the days of the week and theirs had transformers on them. but somehow, they could walk to the bathroom in their underwear but it was very wrong for me to do the same, because it wasn't "modest."
posted by nadawi at 7:53 AM on August 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
i totally agree with all of this. my screaming was more about a time when mine and my brothers' underwear were virtually indistinguishable except mine had the days of the week and theirs had transformers on them. but somehow, they could walk to the bathroom in their underwear but it was very wrong for me to do the same, because it wasn't "modest."
posted by nadawi at 7:53 AM on August 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
nadawi, I'm totally getting what you're saying and I went on a tangent. Women are consistently held to standards that are high or impossible and we are always expected to be uncomfortable, and the multitude of ways that this manifests barely fits into even this epic thread.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:42 AM on August 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 8:42 AM on August 9, 2015 [14 favorites]
Also: why is it so hard to get women's underwear with cool stuff on it? I mean flowers are nice and all, but I'd be more inclined to go back to it if I could get panties with spaceships on them...
posted by bile and syntax at 8:46 AM on August 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 8:46 AM on August 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
I love the "social calculus" and "captaining" terms mentioned above, especially captaining, which is MY LIFE OMG but which I didn't have a term for. I'm an administrative assistant and captaining is what I do all day long, and then I come home and I captain some more, though I am lucky to live with people who mostly take on their fair share of captaining so it isn't all left to me. But it's so, so tiring to keep those mental checklists.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:03 AM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 9:03 AM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
bile and syntax - not spaceships, but can I interest you in a glow-in-the-dark solar system pattern?
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:04 AM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:04 AM on August 9, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also: why is it so hard to get women's underwear with cool stuff on it? I mean flowers are nice and all, but I'd be more inclined to go back to it if I could get panties with spaceships on them...
A while back I bought a pair of boxer briefs with a pattern of little cartoon ham bones on them, from the men's department clearance pile at Target. I bought them for sleeping in, but they ended up being so comfortable that I bought more in other weird patterns and started wearing them under dresses, too. The available patterns change pretty often throughout the year, the ones they're selling right now have been around for a couple of months so there'll probably be new ones soon. (Maybe Halloween themed! Last year there was a glow in the dark skeleton pattern on black with white trim.)
Bonus: so absorbent on hot sweaty days, and comfortable for lounging around in your Crone Island accommodations. Ladies, I'm just saying, fuck the patriarchy by stealing their underpants.
posted by palomar at 10:26 AM on August 9, 2015 [36 favorites]
A while back I bought a pair of boxer briefs with a pattern of little cartoon ham bones on them, from the men's department clearance pile at Target. I bought them for sleeping in, but they ended up being so comfortable that I bought more in other weird patterns and started wearing them under dresses, too. The available patterns change pretty often throughout the year, the ones they're selling right now have been around for a couple of months so there'll probably be new ones soon. (Maybe Halloween themed! Last year there was a glow in the dark skeleton pattern on black with white trim.)
Bonus: so absorbent on hot sweaty days, and comfortable for lounging around in your Crone Island accommodations. Ladies, I'm just saying, fuck the patriarchy by stealing their underpants.
posted by palomar at 10:26 AM on August 9, 2015 [36 favorites]
and started wearing them under dresses, too
Holy shit, you just changed my life. I wear bike shorts over underwear, but that gets gross when it's humid.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:45 AM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Holy shit, you just changed my life. I wear bike shorts over underwear, but that gets gross when it's humid.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:45 AM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Okay, my turn for one of those 'so it's not just me!' lightbulb moments! Yes, boxer briefs FTW. Verrry comfy and they stay in place.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:59 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:59 AM on August 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Boxer briefs lack the extra lining that's part of all women's underwear except for thongs. (Some thongs.) And all that means is, they'll need to be replaced more often. Shrug.
I think I'm ready to switch to boxer briefs. I'm tired of trying to find cotton underwear, not bikini cut, no tight elastic at the leg holes, that don't tear after three washings because they've got all the structural integrity of medical gauze.
And hey, once I figure out what size I wear, I'll be able to shop for them anywhere--no more of this "XL in this brand, XXL in this other brand, size 9 in a third brand, 10 in a fourth, and 18 in the brands that use 'dress sizing'."
The whole women's clothing industry sizing psychosis is just another aspect of UEL that we're expected to do--keep track of a range of sizes that have no direct connection to body shapes or sizes but shift according to brand and this year's fashion whims.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:36 AM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think I'm ready to switch to boxer briefs. I'm tired of trying to find cotton underwear, not bikini cut, no tight elastic at the leg holes, that don't tear after three washings because they've got all the structural integrity of medical gauze.
And hey, once I figure out what size I wear, I'll be able to shop for them anywhere--no more of this "XL in this brand, XXL in this other brand, size 9 in a third brand, 10 in a fourth, and 18 in the brands that use 'dress sizing'."
The whole women's clothing industry sizing psychosis is just another aspect of UEL that we're expected to do--keep track of a range of sizes that have no direct connection to body shapes or sizes but shift according to brand and this year's fashion whims.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:36 AM on August 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
I just spent most of two days reading this entire thread, nodding along and occasionally crying a little as I finally was able to name what was wrong in the relationship I ended six months ago, and FINALLY was reassured that I am NOT oversensitive, NOT demanding, NOT unreasonable...thank you to everyone who spoke up here. And as an almost 41-yo woman with no children, who is DONE compromising her most basic needs and wants, I look forward to joining up on Crone Island. I will bring a dish of my mom's delicious chicken pie and will learn financial wizardry from my wondrous, emotionally-involved father, so Crone Island may continue in perpetuity.
posted by east_coast_exile at 11:37 AM on August 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by east_coast_exile at 11:37 AM on August 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
The boxer briefs I have do have a double front panel, which happens to extend downwards far enough to be in the correct position for me. Yay!
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:38 AM on August 9, 2015
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:38 AM on August 9, 2015
And hey, once I figure out what size I wear, I'll be able to shop for them anywhere--no more of this "XL in this brand, XXL in this other brand, size 9 in a third brand, 10 in a fourth, and 18 in the brands that use 'dress sizing'."
I hate to burst your bubble but I'm someone who has switched from wearing women's to men's clothing and men's sizes are nearly as fucked up as women's. You wouldn't think so, since they use actual numbers, alas Hanes size S boxer briefs (28-30 waist) are larger than Hilfiger size S (28-30 waist) which are larger than Champion size S (28-30 waist). Gap size 28 (waist) pants are larger than ASOS size 28 pants.
posted by desjardins at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
I hate to burst your bubble but I'm someone who has switched from wearing women's to men's clothing and men's sizes are nearly as fucked up as women's. You wouldn't think so, since they use actual numbers, alas Hanes size S boxer briefs (28-30 waist) are larger than Hilfiger size S (28-30 waist) which are larger than Champion size S (28-30 waist). Gap size 28 (waist) pants are larger than ASOS size 28 pants.
posted by desjardins at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yeah, I've just spent 20 minutes trying to buy boxer-briefs on Amazon and no two brands or styles seem to be sized the same, and it just gets worse if you're a big person because they don't seem to put sizing charts on the larger sizes at all.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:04 PM on August 9, 2015
posted by Lyn Never at 12:04 PM on August 9, 2015
This wasn't what I anticipated as my first post to the thread, but I get my boxer briefs at Costco, and they have some going up to 2xl or larger, with the sizing info on the package. Very comfortable options.
I am about to move into my own queer crone island outpost outside of Denver, if anyone ever wants to get away and have dogsnuggles. I'm going to seek out the google group as well.
Thank you to everyone who has posted. I have a lot of thoughts about the thread, but they'll probably go in the group instead of on open internet.
posted by HermitDog at 12:55 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am about to move into my own queer crone island outpost outside of Denver, if anyone ever wants to get away and have dogsnuggles. I'm going to seek out the google group as well.
Thank you to everyone who has posted. I have a lot of thoughts about the thread, but they'll probably go in the group instead of on open internet.
posted by HermitDog at 12:55 PM on August 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
The box now has 80 followers.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:02 PM on August 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:02 PM on August 9, 2015 [19 favorites]
... an ex of mine actually (without using the word abuser, oh no, he was a lovely person, just forgetful and misunderstood and oblivious) said it was unfair that I saw these hurtful things as a pattern, that him doing a good thing should erase the bad things that came before it. And that I was not a good person because I wouldn't let the bad things go. That I was difficult. That I had unrealistic expectations.
Oh, I feel that one, Blue_thing. You could be describing the current Mister Orchidfox (who really needs a separate name, because he is definitely not an orchid and probably not a fox; perhaps I will call him Dandelionhedgehog, or DH for short, ha).
<offers a Snickers bar of welcome and commiseration>
posted by orchidfox at 3:12 PM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, I feel that one, Blue_thing. You could be describing the current Mister Orchidfox (who really needs a separate name, because he is definitely not an orchid and probably not a fox; perhaps I will call him Dandelionhedgehog, or DH for short, ha).
<offers a Snickers bar of welcome and commiseration>
posted by orchidfox at 3:12 PM on August 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think boxers are only comfier than women's undies if you are under a certain size. I tried switching a few years back when I was smaller than I am now and found it nearly impossible to find comfy boxers that could actually accommodate my hips (hips being something that tend not to happen so much for boys). I vote bringing back bloomers (though shorter than knee-length), or French knickers.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:41 PM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Athanassiel at 10:41 PM on August 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
The box now has 109 followers, including my husband, who seemed vaguely relieved it was not a Twitter account for any of his own incomplete projects. #TheBoxWatchWatch
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 9:43 AM on August 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 9:43 AM on August 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
it was not a Twitter account for any of his own incomplete projects
It isn't?
posted by jeather at 9:47 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
It isn't?
posted by jeather at 9:47 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, I joked with him that I could get a Twitter account for my as-yet-unbuilt Ikea china cabinet that he promised to put together some months ago, but that I would tell him first if I did.
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 9:54 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 9:54 AM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, I joked with him that I could get a Twitter account for my as-yet-unbuilt Ikea china cabinet that he promised to put together some months ago, but that I would tell him first if I did.
I seem to have misread the poster of the original comment, sorry about that.
posted by jeather at 9:58 AM on August 10, 2015
I seem to have misread the poster of the original comment, sorry about that.
posted by jeather at 9:58 AM on August 10, 2015
The box now has 109 followers, including my husband, who seemed vaguely relieved it was not a Twitter account for any of his own incomplete projects.
Lemme get this straight.
He is motivated enough to follow the Twitter feed for the box, and is emotionally invested enough to feel relief that the feed is not about other projects, but he is not motivated enough to bring the box to UPS?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on August 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
Lemme get this straight.
He is motivated enough to follow the Twitter feed for the box, and is emotionally invested enough to feel relief that the feed is not about other projects, but he is not motivated enough to bring the box to UPS?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on August 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
pssst EC it's not sister nunchaku's husband's box, it's Sophie1's husband's box! unless they share a husband or something I think sister nunchaku's husband is probably relieved of box responsibility. although I think he should maybe build his IKEA cabinet soonish...
posted by sciatrix at 10:19 AM on August 10, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 10:19 AM on August 10, 2015 [16 favorites]
Please decorate the box seasonally.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:40 PM on August 10, 2015 [38 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:40 PM on August 10, 2015 [38 favorites]
I know I’m late to the table and we’re mainly talking about the unsent box right now. I also deeply feel all the comments from women who are DONE being the only one performing the emotional labor in their relationships and families. I’m reading this as a woman who has not until this very moment fully appreciated the value of emotional labor, at least when it comes to family and community. I’m not good at it and I’ve been actively avoiding it.
And then all I can think of is the vast and exhausting amount of it my mother performs constantly that I have completely taken for granted until now (I should mention here that after my parents divorced when I was seven, my mother had full custody and my dad completely checked out emotionally, so this was ALL HER):
Growing up, she bought holiday and end-of-year presents for all of our teachers until junior high.
Every year she gives holiday cards and cash presents to the mail and newspaper delivery people. She makes multiple kinds of baked goods, candied nuts, etc. to give out to the neighbors and other acquaintances during the holidays. She makes fudge with my sister (she is in her forties but is developmentally delayed, so she lives at home) so she can bring bags of it as holiday gifts for her co-workers.
She buys presents for family friends, their kids and their grandkids. Even those she sees only once a year.
She buys presents for her partner’s children and grandchildren, even if her partner himself “is not a gift-giver” and barely gives her anything in return.
She sends all family members and close friends postcards on every single trip she takes, even it’s just visiting a town a few hours away for a week. I remember on family vacations one of our first stops was buying postcards to send. She would always bring her address book and stamps.
She also always brings back souvenir gifts from longer trips, and is constantly replenishing her “gift drawer” so she will have a last-minute present if needed.
She stops and talks with every person she runs into that she knows for at least a few minutes. As kids we used to complain about her “chit-chatting” all the time and how it made running errands take longer. I remember actually trying to physically pull her away from conversations as a small child (what a little shit I was!).
I remember an older man who had been a family acquaintance for many years. He must have been something of a hoarder and lived in a very cramped, claustrophobic and smoky apartment with his elderly mother. When she passed away, he lived alone with his stacks and stacks of newspapers. He used to get multiple copies of each local newspaper so he could clip each article that featured someone he knew and send it to that person. I hated going that apartment as a child and I didn’t understand why my mother wanted to visit, nor did I understand why she continued to bring him Christmas gifts every year when he wasn’t a close friend. Now I look back and see it as the act of grace and generosity it really was for a lonely but kind and thoughtful man.
I’m in my 30s and live across the country and she still sends me a Valentine’s Day card and gift, an Easter card and gift, a Halloween card and gift, a Thanksgiving card, and of course a birthday card and gift (I still go back for the holidays).
I'm sure I'm forgetting so many other things. And we didn’t have a lot of extra money, yet she still did (and does) all this. Thinking of the enormity of it all just makes my heart ache.
She lives in smallish city where she almost always sees someone she knows anywhere she goes. I know that maintaining a sense of community is very important to her. But somehow I never realized that that doesn’t just happen, it takes work. It takes effort and time spent checking in with people and learning about their lives.
I have to admit that until now I’ve viewed much of this as silly, unnecessary, a waste of time. An anachronism. Whenever I got a postcard from one of her trips, I showed it to my boyfriend and laughed about it. But right now thinking of all that exhaustive effort is making me feel so inadequate and guilty right now. At this point in my life, I feel pretty disconnected from my community. I feel like old friends are slowly fading away without being replaced. And now I realize how little emotional labor I’m performing in my life. I pat myself on the back when I manage to send my mom a combination Mother’s Day/birthday gift a month late because in other years, I didn’t send anything at all. I don’t know my neighbors. I often don’t make the effort to keep in touch with old friends, and when I do it feels sporadic and awkward. When I run into people I know while running errands I can barely get out a “hey” before I quickly turn away and move on, because I don’t know what to say. It probably seems rude.
I used to try to be a little better about these things. In past years, I made a real effort with my boyfriend’s family (who lives locally), buying thoughtful gifts for occasions and “just because.” I always helped with cooking and cleaning up even when the brothers and their father never did. Then I realized that my boyfriend was making no effort with MY family and was barely doing the work with his (he does have reasons for that, I should note), so rather than asking for or expecting reciprocity I just completely disengaged and made sure that dealing with his family was entirely his job. And the result was that I lost more human connection.
I also thought that the disengagement with emotional labor was somehow a sign of modernity. Younger women aren’t as obligated or expected to do it anymore, so they shouldn’t. That is such the wrong answer! Emotional labor is important and still needs to be done. Otherwise we inhabit a disengaged, unconnected world that feels empty and devoid of feeling. A lot of men, and those of us who aren’t doing our fair share, just need to step up.
And it’s important for us slackers to remember that emotional labor is, duh , LABOR. It’s work. It’s time and effort and it’s hard. All this time I’ve been thinking that since I’m not good at it, it’s not my “thing,” so I don’t need to do it. It doesn’t come “naturally” so I might was well avoid it. This is bullshit. If you aren’t good at something, you practice!
Anyway, thank you all for this thread. It has been truly eye-opening and thought-provoking.
posted by janerica at 3:47 PM on August 10, 2015 [91 favorites]
And then all I can think of is the vast and exhausting amount of it my mother performs constantly that I have completely taken for granted until now (I should mention here that after my parents divorced when I was seven, my mother had full custody and my dad completely checked out emotionally, so this was ALL HER):
Growing up, she bought holiday and end-of-year presents for all of our teachers until junior high.
Every year she gives holiday cards and cash presents to the mail and newspaper delivery people. She makes multiple kinds of baked goods, candied nuts, etc. to give out to the neighbors and other acquaintances during the holidays. She makes fudge with my sister (she is in her forties but is developmentally delayed, so she lives at home) so she can bring bags of it as holiday gifts for her co-workers.
She buys presents for family friends, their kids and their grandkids. Even those she sees only once a year.
She buys presents for her partner’s children and grandchildren, even if her partner himself “is not a gift-giver” and barely gives her anything in return.
She sends all family members and close friends postcards on every single trip she takes, even it’s just visiting a town a few hours away for a week. I remember on family vacations one of our first stops was buying postcards to send. She would always bring her address book and stamps.
She also always brings back souvenir gifts from longer trips, and is constantly replenishing her “gift drawer” so she will have a last-minute present if needed.
She stops and talks with every person she runs into that she knows for at least a few minutes. As kids we used to complain about her “chit-chatting” all the time and how it made running errands take longer. I remember actually trying to physically pull her away from conversations as a small child (what a little shit I was!).
I remember an older man who had been a family acquaintance for many years. He must have been something of a hoarder and lived in a very cramped, claustrophobic and smoky apartment with his elderly mother. When she passed away, he lived alone with his stacks and stacks of newspapers. He used to get multiple copies of each local newspaper so he could clip each article that featured someone he knew and send it to that person. I hated going that apartment as a child and I didn’t understand why my mother wanted to visit, nor did I understand why she continued to bring him Christmas gifts every year when he wasn’t a close friend. Now I look back and see it as the act of grace and generosity it really was for a lonely but kind and thoughtful man.
I’m in my 30s and live across the country and she still sends me a Valentine’s Day card and gift, an Easter card and gift, a Halloween card and gift, a Thanksgiving card, and of course a birthday card and gift (I still go back for the holidays).
I'm sure I'm forgetting so many other things. And we didn’t have a lot of extra money, yet she still did (and does) all this. Thinking of the enormity of it all just makes my heart ache.
She lives in smallish city where she almost always sees someone she knows anywhere she goes. I know that maintaining a sense of community is very important to her. But somehow I never realized that that doesn’t just happen, it takes work. It takes effort and time spent checking in with people and learning about their lives.
I have to admit that until now I’ve viewed much of this as silly, unnecessary, a waste of time. An anachronism. Whenever I got a postcard from one of her trips, I showed it to my boyfriend and laughed about it. But right now thinking of all that exhaustive effort is making me feel so inadequate and guilty right now. At this point in my life, I feel pretty disconnected from my community. I feel like old friends are slowly fading away without being replaced. And now I realize how little emotional labor I’m performing in my life. I pat myself on the back when I manage to send my mom a combination Mother’s Day/birthday gift a month late because in other years, I didn’t send anything at all. I don’t know my neighbors. I often don’t make the effort to keep in touch with old friends, and when I do it feels sporadic and awkward. When I run into people I know while running errands I can barely get out a “hey” before I quickly turn away and move on, because I don’t know what to say. It probably seems rude.
I used to try to be a little better about these things. In past years, I made a real effort with my boyfriend’s family (who lives locally), buying thoughtful gifts for occasions and “just because.” I always helped with cooking and cleaning up even when the brothers and their father never did. Then I realized that my boyfriend was making no effort with MY family and was barely doing the work with his (he does have reasons for that, I should note), so rather than asking for or expecting reciprocity I just completely disengaged and made sure that dealing with his family was entirely his job. And the result was that I lost more human connection.
I also thought that the disengagement with emotional labor was somehow a sign of modernity. Younger women aren’t as obligated or expected to do it anymore, so they shouldn’t. That is such the wrong answer! Emotional labor is important and still needs to be done. Otherwise we inhabit a disengaged, unconnected world that feels empty and devoid of feeling. A lot of men, and those of us who aren’t doing our fair share, just need to step up.
And it’s important for us slackers to remember that emotional labor is, duh , LABOR. It’s work. It’s time and effort and it’s hard. All this time I’ve been thinking that since I’m not good at it, it’s not my “thing,” so I don’t need to do it. It doesn’t come “naturally” so I might was well avoid it. This is bullshit. If you aren’t good at something, you practice!
Anyway, thank you all for this thread. It has been truly eye-opening and thought-provoking.
posted by janerica at 3:47 PM on August 10, 2015 [91 favorites]
janerica, I found a lot in your comment that I relate to. I've actually discovered that framing it as "work" and a skill I can acquire is making it easier for me. There's a lot of it that I find emotionally grueling and previously that's as far as I got--this is emotionally grueling, I give up. Things like being friendly to my irritating neighbors, maintaining contact with family members who are difficult for me to deal with, etc. I think it's hard because my expectation is that it should be effortless and enjoyable. But going into it with the expectation that it's time and effort and sometimes not enjoyable, but Future HotToddy will be glad she did it, makes it more palatable. And, at the same time, I realize that I've been doing a shitload of hard work in other areas of my life and I'm right to feel that I've been doing all the heavy lifting.
posted by HotToddy at 4:12 PM on August 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 4:12 PM on August 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
And it’s important for us slackers to remember that emotional labor is, duh , LABOR. It’s work. It’s time and effort and it’s hard. All this time I’ve been thinking that since I’m not good at it, it’s not my “thing,” so I don’t need to do it. It doesn’t come “naturally” so I might was well avoid it. This is bullshit. If you aren’t good at something, you practice!
Man. You just summed up this whole thread for me. And in a way I can actively pass on to people who won't read it. Thank you for that.
posted by Mchelly at 9:03 PM on August 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
Man. You just summed up this whole thread for me. And in a way I can actively pass on to people who won't read it. Thank you for that.
posted by Mchelly at 9:03 PM on August 10, 2015 [18 favorites]
(Side note, I'm sure most of you have read them, but for those who haven't: check out Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching series. They're quick little humorous novels about a country witch in training, and a big part of the worldbuilding is that witches do all the keeping up with neighbors, dropping by to call on the old and sick, etc, and that's the source of much of their power.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:11 PM on August 10, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:11 PM on August 10, 2015 [37 favorites]
Another woman stealing the men's underwear here... I got this recommendation from another AskMe thread earlier this year and I've been wearing them ever since. Fruit of the Loom Sports Briefs. Very sturdily built and they don't ride up anywhere. They are just a little tight around the leg, so I will be joining the boxer briefs bandwagon this weekend. I have a $5 Target giftcard that I got as a bonus for buying a lot of tampons/liners last week, so it feels extra "fuck the patriarchy" to buy men's underwear for myself with it.
posted by CathyG at 9:49 PM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by CathyG at 9:49 PM on August 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am irrationally excited about looking into buying men's underwear. It never even occurred to me.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:34 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 6:34 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Women shopping for boxer briefs might want to be aware that there are some styles that don't have a fly. Often they're labeled as some kind of activewear or 'trunks' as opposed to boxer-briefs. Here's a microfiber example from Jockey. 2(x)ist makes colorful low rise cotton trunks.
Also, both these briefs from American Apparel and their boxer brief version are worth a look.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:54 AM on August 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, both these briefs from American Apparel and their boxer brief version are worth a look.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:54 AM on August 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
The microfiber from Jockey is fascinating--in that it's normally $16, on sale for $8, and a similar shape for women, the "short length slipshort," is $20.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:17 AM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:17 AM on August 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
One nice thing about men's underwear that DOES have the fly is that you can put a pantyliner or other pad BETWEEN the two layers of fabric - so you get protection (I used to do this just for backup of another method, like ensuring I am good even if my menstrual cup leaks) but without having the weird-feeling (to me) pads be against your skin. They also move around less if you have a layer of fabric holding them in place.
posted by emilywk at 7:46 AM on August 11, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by emilywk at 7:46 AM on August 11, 2015 [13 favorites]
emilywk, that's so clever! Thanks!
posted by Don Pepino at 8:19 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 8:19 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Never too late to the table.... I will be so sad when this thread closes.
I'm still thinking about these concepts every day. It's helped me reevaluate my workload and also appreciate some of the things my husband does that hadn't seemed that important to me.
posted by bq at 9:38 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm still thinking about these concepts every day. It's helped me reevaluate my workload and also appreciate some of the things my husband does that hadn't seemed that important to me.
posted by bq at 9:38 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm still thinking about his thread every day, and keep telling people about it. Thank you, everybody.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:51 AM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 9:51 AM on August 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
I bought these boxers for my husband and then some for myself. Soft fabric, loads of colors. The ComfortSoft waistband is where it's at for me. I am not tall (5' 4"), wear XL in most women's bottoms (e.g. Target), and the size L fit me super comfortably.
Alas they only go up to men's size XL, but here is the same product in 2XL.
In two years none have worn out yet!
Hope this is helpful to someone :)
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 10:00 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Alas they only go up to men's size XL, but here is the same product in 2XL.
In two years none have worn out yet!
Hope this is helpful to someone :)
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 10:00 AM on August 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Brief caveat for those newly interested in wearing menswear underwear -- if you have latex sensitivities/allergies like I do (dear future assassin: you're welcome), the wider, uncovered elastic waistbands can cause welts. And, infuriatingly, sometimes the elastic is only bare right where it sits against the skin, and that's not always made clear in the ad photo or on the packaging.
The Hanes ComfortSoft waistband in the link above is fabric-wrapped but not at all bulky, and I can wear those boxers to bed on the regular.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:46 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Hanes ComfortSoft waistband in the link above is fabric-wrapped but not at all bulky, and I can wear those boxers to bed on the regular.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:46 AM on August 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Another new member, on account of this thread. Thank you all so much.
My husband and I tell each other - just because it is a thankless task doesn't mean someone doesn't need to be thanked for it - and the corollary is to find the person who accomplished that thankless thing and THANK THEM. It has improved life since we instituted a policy of thanking people for their efforts.
It is also perfectly reasonable to announce that there is Lovely Food Ready RIGHT NOW, or that the next several people in the bathroom should take note of the shine on the sink.
I am so grateful to you all for writing all this down, for coming back and reading more, for validating so many experiences.
posted by old gray mare at 12:12 PM on August 11, 2015 [27 favorites]
My husband and I tell each other - just because it is a thankless task doesn't mean someone doesn't need to be thanked for it - and the corollary is to find the person who accomplished that thankless thing and THANK THEM. It has improved life since we instituted a policy of thanking people for their efforts.
It is also perfectly reasonable to announce that there is Lovely Food Ready RIGHT NOW, or that the next several people in the bathroom should take note of the shine on the sink.
I am so grateful to you all for writing all this down, for coming back and reading more, for validating so many experiences.
posted by old gray mare at 12:12 PM on August 11, 2015 [27 favorites]
Via Crone Island, I stumbled across the International Wages For Housework Campaign, (a movement from the early 70's), and have been reading about it with great interest.
More Smiles? More Money:
Young people in the West who have spent their formative years in the workforce as freelancers, part-timers, adjuncts, unwaged workers, and interns are beginning to feel — granted, later than most of the world — that they’re not compensated for the work that they do. Not “not paid enough,” but not paid at all, since the ballooning service, communications, and private-care industries increasingly demand the kind of work that people are expected to do out of love. Under these circumstances, the longstanding critique of the exploitation of mothers, wives, grandmothers is felt with new force, among a much younger and much wider population of women and men, with children and without.
...It’s an improvement, if a somewhat discouraging one. The belatedness with which mainstream culture has come to recognize the value of unwaged work seems to confirm that women’s issues only become relevant once they’re successfully recast as “general” issues that pertain to men. (“Patriarchy hurts boys,” we’re told. It does — but does it have to in order for us to care?) It’s also a symptom of American politics generally, where turbulence elsewhere is only registered if we personally feel the aftershock: a trickle-up theory of oppression to complement the country’s trickle-down theory of wealth. For years, mainstream Western feminism has been stuck in the echo chamber of its own narrow politics. The same debates play out with little variation — about work–life balance, abortion, the sexual double standard, equal pay — as the movement’s perceived protagonists, still predominately white, straight, and wealthy, run up against the limits of their own experience again and again, waiting for the fourth wave to crash. As they spin their wheels, the experiences of women around them offer plenty indication of where the movement should apply its focus. The richest, most successful C-suite feminists may still find female oppression under their noses in the household, but odds are it isn’t theirs but their cleaning ladies’. Meanwhile, the greatest systemic crimes against women that affect our daily lives — and not only the most gruesome ones — remain beyond sight.
What would happen if, at long last, women and especially mothers were paid the market rate for their services? To begin with, it might buoy the baseline value of such work above zero, so that rank-and-file nurses, cleaners, and child care workers moiling in the waged economy wouldn’t get such lousy pay. Rosler and Federici belong to a generation of leftists largely suspicious of economic rationality, but to extend it, rather than battle to incrementally reduce its influence, could do women good. Put a price on women’s work, they say. If that work suddenly seems too expensive, it should. Perhaps men — increasingly the sex without work — might just do “women’s work” at lower pay, as women have done men’s since the Industrial Revolution. And perhaps women, as studies have shown they do, will use their wealth to improve the quality of life of entire households, entire societies.
(the entire article is great)
posted by triggerfinger at 7:09 PM on August 11, 2015 [22 favorites]
More Smiles? More Money:
Young people in the West who have spent their formative years in the workforce as freelancers, part-timers, adjuncts, unwaged workers, and interns are beginning to feel — granted, later than most of the world — that they’re not compensated for the work that they do. Not “not paid enough,” but not paid at all, since the ballooning service, communications, and private-care industries increasingly demand the kind of work that people are expected to do out of love. Under these circumstances, the longstanding critique of the exploitation of mothers, wives, grandmothers is felt with new force, among a much younger and much wider population of women and men, with children and without.
...It’s an improvement, if a somewhat discouraging one. The belatedness with which mainstream culture has come to recognize the value of unwaged work seems to confirm that women’s issues only become relevant once they’re successfully recast as “general” issues that pertain to men. (“Patriarchy hurts boys,” we’re told. It does — but does it have to in order for us to care?) It’s also a symptom of American politics generally, where turbulence elsewhere is only registered if we personally feel the aftershock: a trickle-up theory of oppression to complement the country’s trickle-down theory of wealth. For years, mainstream Western feminism has been stuck in the echo chamber of its own narrow politics. The same debates play out with little variation — about work–life balance, abortion, the sexual double standard, equal pay — as the movement’s perceived protagonists, still predominately white, straight, and wealthy, run up against the limits of their own experience again and again, waiting for the fourth wave to crash. As they spin their wheels, the experiences of women around them offer plenty indication of where the movement should apply its focus. The richest, most successful C-suite feminists may still find female oppression under their noses in the household, but odds are it isn’t theirs but their cleaning ladies’. Meanwhile, the greatest systemic crimes against women that affect our daily lives — and not only the most gruesome ones — remain beyond sight.
What would happen if, at long last, women and especially mothers were paid the market rate for their services? To begin with, it might buoy the baseline value of such work above zero, so that rank-and-file nurses, cleaners, and child care workers moiling in the waged economy wouldn’t get such lousy pay. Rosler and Federici belong to a generation of leftists largely suspicious of economic rationality, but to extend it, rather than battle to incrementally reduce its influence, could do women good. Put a price on women’s work, they say. If that work suddenly seems too expensive, it should. Perhaps men — increasingly the sex without work — might just do “women’s work” at lower pay, as women have done men’s since the Industrial Revolution. And perhaps women, as studies have shown they do, will use their wealth to improve the quality of life of entire households, entire societies.
(the entire article is great)
posted by triggerfinger at 7:09 PM on August 11, 2015 [22 favorites]
From a recent edition of PRI's The World:
There’s a Korean reality show that’s giving dads a run for their money. It’s called “Superman is Back” — and it’s about celebrity Korean dads who are challenged to watch their own kids, without the help of mom, for 48 hours.posted by XMLicious at 1:39 AM on August 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
...
So what’s it going to take to get Korean fathers to break the cycle? Soon-to-be dad YunJoon reminds me, these celebrities are being paid quite a lot to watch their kids. He insists he would do it, too, if he were paid.
But I ask him, how about mothers? Should they be paid for looking after their kids, too?
Yunjoon and his wife Jung Ah laugh awkwardly, and she sighs, “Yeah, that’s difficult.”
I love this thread. And I've only just now managed to get to the end of it, because we've been moving house over the past couple of weeks and just argh all the stuff, but I have so much been enjoying reading instalments of it every evening.
I have been thinking about the idea of multitasking recently, and the stereotype that women are inherently better at it than men. As I mentioned we've been moving, so things are chaos all around, but... well,ten twenty thirty sixty ninety* minutes ago I was trying to decipher the weirdly complicated recycling system of our new city so I could order any new bins we needed today in time for delivery, while directing the engineer installing our TV and broadband, while watching the 1-year-old. Husband was taking a phone call for work. This time last week, I was leaning out of the back door to get enough of a phone signal to talk a lost builder through the directions to our front door, while simultaneously having a conversation with my mother-in-law about what in the kitchen was going and what was staying so it could be packed in time for the movers, while simultaneously trying to stop the very determined 1-year-old from getting out of the door past me and escaping down the road. Husband was at a work meeting.
And, you know, my husband is generally pretty good at emotional labour, and I am the stay-at-home parent right now and in charge of a lot of this stuff. I don't resent it, exactly. But I had certainly underestimated the mental work needed to almost always be doing at least two things at once. Like: on Monday, I went into town on my own to do some , and it took a bit of effort to work out the bus schedules and the routes I'd need to take and how to get to where I was going on time. Tuesday, I did the same thing with the kid in tow, as I usually do, and it was so much harder. Exponentially harder. Not just 'find nearest bus stop', but 'find relatively near bus stop at a point on its route where it should be relatively quiet so we have enough space'. Not just 'take the bus', but 'take the bus while entertaining the baby while keeping an eye out in case a wheelchair user gets on and needs their space'. Not just 'fill out paperwork', but 'fill out paperwork while rocking buggy with foot and taking to kid so she does not throw bored tantrum in crowded office'.
Yesterday I had to write a couple of emails regarding my new job, which shouldn't have taken too long but really needed some uninterrupted concentration time for, say, twenty minutes or so. It should have been fine, because my husband had a quiet day and my mother-in-law was coming over as well, so I hoped to get them done first thing in the morning. But between this thing and that thing and the other thing, I did not get those twenty uninterrupted minutes until ten past four in the afternoon. It was so, so frustrating - just twenty minutes! That's all I need! And I felt like I was bringing that frustration on myself by not being firmer about needing it NOW - but on the other hand, my alternative would have been "hey, Mother-in-law, thanks so much for bringing us a bunch of freezer stuff and then mowing our lawn, but you'll need to sort all that out yourself and not expect me to make you a cup of coffee or chat to you, so just take the baby and go away for a while please." Which... see all of upthread for why this is not really a good option.
I don't know if I am particularly good at multitasking. I don't know if my husband is particularly bad at it. But I wish we as a society could have conversations about this that are less about who's good at multitasking, and more about who's fortunate enough to not have to do it, because right now I would give my (nonexistent) life savings to just get to do one thing at once for a change.
(*I got interrupted 18 times writing this before I stopped counting.)
posted by Catseye at 4:17 AM on August 12, 2015 [58 favorites]
I have been thinking about the idea of multitasking recently, and the stereotype that women are inherently better at it than men. As I mentioned we've been moving, so things are chaos all around, but... well,
And, you know, my husband is generally pretty good at emotional labour, and I am the stay-at-home parent right now and in charge of a lot of this stuff. I don't resent it, exactly. But I had certainly underestimated the mental work needed to almost always be doing at least two things at once. Like: on Monday, I went into town on my own to do some , and it took a bit of effort to work out the bus schedules and the routes I'd need to take and how to get to where I was going on time. Tuesday, I did the same thing with the kid in tow, as I usually do, and it was so much harder. Exponentially harder. Not just 'find nearest bus stop', but 'find relatively near bus stop at a point on its route where it should be relatively quiet so we have enough space'. Not just 'take the bus', but 'take the bus while entertaining the baby while keeping an eye out in case a wheelchair user gets on and needs their space'. Not just 'fill out paperwork', but 'fill out paperwork while rocking buggy with foot and taking to kid so she does not throw bored tantrum in crowded office'.
Yesterday I had to write a couple of emails regarding my new job, which shouldn't have taken too long but really needed some uninterrupted concentration time for, say, twenty minutes or so. It should have been fine, because my husband had a quiet day and my mother-in-law was coming over as well, so I hoped to get them done first thing in the morning. But between this thing and that thing and the other thing, I did not get those twenty uninterrupted minutes until ten past four in the afternoon. It was so, so frustrating - just twenty minutes! That's all I need! And I felt like I was bringing that frustration on myself by not being firmer about needing it NOW - but on the other hand, my alternative would have been "hey, Mother-in-law, thanks so much for bringing us a bunch of freezer stuff and then mowing our lawn, but you'll need to sort all that out yourself and not expect me to make you a cup of coffee or chat to you, so just take the baby and go away for a while please." Which... see all of upthread for why this is not really a good option.
I don't know if I am particularly good at multitasking. I don't know if my husband is particularly bad at it. But I wish we as a society could have conversations about this that are less about who's good at multitasking, and more about who's fortunate enough to not have to do it, because right now I would give my (nonexistent) life savings to just get to do one thing at once for a change.
(*I got interrupted 18 times writing this before I stopped counting.)
posted by Catseye at 4:17 AM on August 12, 2015 [58 favorites]
There is no "Awesome Girl Scout Mom" T-shirt in the GSUSA store, nor is there a "Woman Enough to be a Girl Scout" one.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:26 AM on August 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:26 AM on August 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Just got to the end of this thread, after days and days of reading. I couldn't skip a single comment, it felt important to bear witness to everything y'all have posted here.
I've joined the Google Group, and feel like my toolbox is much more full than it was before this thread.
My comments aren’t unique or particularly well phrased, but:
For me, before this thread, I always framed unequal emotional labor as “thoughtlessness” — from me, being called thoughtless is pretty much the biggest insult (usually, but not always, lobbed against the man children in my life).
All of the comments about ‘taking out trash’ = also putting in a new bag, or dishes meaning also un/loading after the dishwasher’s cycle really resonated with me.
While I’m sensitive to arguments that no one should be expected to read another’s mind, that’s not the same as expecting someone to make the effort to generally anticipate the needs of those other than themselves (and then to do something about those needs!)
I just moved out of a shared living situation where the kitchen situation was so bad that I simply only ate yogurt / dry goods / at restaurants for *a year* because things were filthy and I was unwilling to be a Mama Martyr for the house. How tiring.
Now I’m living with my sweetie, and his housemate, and can already feel the resentment of not having a kingdom of my own with only one man to train/bargain with (that is, the man I am in a relationship with, who is pretty good at this stuff, and who I am invested in). May I never live with a man-child again in my life. I’m budgeting for that no matter what. I’m done. This is the last year.
In sum: I love you all, thank you for pulling me from my lurking cycle.
posted by sazerac at 12:08 PM on August 12, 2015 [27 favorites]
I've joined the Google Group, and feel like my toolbox is much more full than it was before this thread.
My comments aren’t unique or particularly well phrased, but:
For me, before this thread, I always framed unequal emotional labor as “thoughtlessness” — from me, being called thoughtless is pretty much the biggest insult (usually, but not always, lobbed against the man children in my life).
All of the comments about ‘taking out trash’ = also putting in a new bag, or dishes meaning also un/loading after the dishwasher’s cycle really resonated with me.
While I’m sensitive to arguments that no one should be expected to read another’s mind, that’s not the same as expecting someone to make the effort to generally anticipate the needs of those other than themselves (and then to do something about those needs!)
I just moved out of a shared living situation where the kitchen situation was so bad that I simply only ate yogurt / dry goods / at restaurants for *a year* because things were filthy and I was unwilling to be a Mama Martyr for the house. How tiring.
Now I’m living with my sweetie, and his housemate, and can already feel the resentment of not having a kingdom of my own with only one man to train/bargain with (that is, the man I am in a relationship with, who is pretty good at this stuff, and who I am invested in). May I never live with a man-child again in my life. I’m budgeting for that no matter what. I’m done. This is the last year.
In sum: I love you all, thank you for pulling me from my lurking cycle.
posted by sazerac at 12:08 PM on August 12, 2015 [27 favorites]
Today is my birthday.
Mr HotToddy: I was going to buy you flowers . . .
Me: *dies laughing inside, anticipating sharing this with the EL thread*
Mr HotToddy: . . . but they were out of them.
Honestly I don't care, he brought me lunch, I don't even really like flowers, and that's a pretty legit excuse for the middle of a workday. But I do think it's hilarious.
posted by HotToddy at 1:42 PM on August 12, 2015 [32 favorites]
Mr HotToddy: I was going to buy you flowers . . .
Me: *dies laughing inside, anticipating sharing this with the EL thread*
Mr HotToddy: . . . but they were out of them.
Honestly I don't care, he brought me lunch, I don't even really like flowers, and that's a pretty legit excuse for the middle of a workday. But I do think it's hilarious.
posted by HotToddy at 1:42 PM on August 12, 2015 [32 favorites]
Meanwhile, the greatest systemic crimes against women that affect our daily lives — and not only the most gruesome ones — remain beyond sight. What would happen if, at long last, women and especially mothers were paid the market rate for their services?
not that emotional labor needs to be placed in an economic framework -- capitalist, marxist or otherwise -- but i think the article triggerfinger links to does a great job of outlining the economic disenfranchisement of women in historic/systemic context:
what strikes me about 'wages for housework' is its similarity with recent trends in the so-called 'sharing' economy -- for elderly/health care, cleaning services -- in their attempts to get 'paid the market rate for their services', which i think simultaneously highlights the amount of unpaid emotional labor out there, its growing scarcity (the longer it goes unrewarded) and the deficiencies of gov't services and support for those providing emotional labor, say vis-à-vis scandinavia.*
while turning everything you do or receive into a monetary transaction is (the opposite of sharing) one way to boost GDP, it presumes that people have money or, as i like to think of it, 'tickets to ride' on marketplace offerings -- access -- and that 'price' is a good measure of (emotional) value.
so i just finished reading 'why information grows' by césar hidalgo, which highlights the importance of human and social capital, which i've been thinking about in terms of all the emotional labor involved in building up said 'human and social capital':
on that note, here are some words of wisdom that i recently came across: "A great explanation of why 'be respectful' especially across unstated power dynamics fails."
---
*e.g. witness finland: "Finland provides three years of maternity leave and subsidized day care to parents, and preschool for all 5-year-olds, where the emphasis is on play and socializing. In addition, the state subsidizes parents, paying them around 150 euros per month for every child until he or she turns 17."
posted by kliuless at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2015 [45 favorites]
not that emotional labor needs to be placed in an economic framework -- capitalist, marxist or otherwise -- but i think the article triggerfinger links to does a great job of outlining the economic disenfranchisement of women in historic/systemic context:
Capital accumulation depended on unwaged household work: giving birth to the future workforce, yes, but also feeding husbands, children, and parents, cleaning up after them, placating them when the world frustrated their ambitions, and so on. Seeing this more clearly than its predecessors, Wages for Housework understood how much damage a refusal to do unwaged labor could inflict on a capitalist system... to argue against the role capitalism reserves for women...seeking refuge or an island of solace from the burden of unwaged labor is great but so is demanding recognition, burden sharing and credit, not to mention the 'fury road' of taking back the system.
Economists have known for a long time that women do a lot of work for free in times of social need. Remarkably, they have used this fact against women as part of the rationale behind massive neoliberal retrenchment: Why fund state services when you know that women will supply them for free? ...during WWI, the British government discovered that income given directly to women, as opposed to men, raised the quality of life of an entire household. Later “experiments” in microfinance revealed the same. If the goal for neoliberal planners was to inflict the least damage on the tightest budget, you’d think this fact — sound enough to justify massive austerity programs — would also be sound enough to make the case for a universal income for women. In other words: wages for housework.
what strikes me about 'wages for housework' is its similarity with recent trends in the so-called 'sharing' economy -- for elderly/health care, cleaning services -- in their attempts to get 'paid the market rate for their services', which i think simultaneously highlights the amount of unpaid emotional labor out there, its growing scarcity (the longer it goes unrewarded) and the deficiencies of gov't services and support for those providing emotional labor, say vis-à-vis scandinavia.*
while turning everything you do or receive into a monetary transaction is (the opposite of sharing) one way to boost GDP, it presumes that people have money or, as i like to think of it, 'tickets to ride' on marketplace offerings -- access -- and that 'price' is a good measure of (emotional) value.
so i just finished reading 'why information grows' by césar hidalgo, which highlights the importance of human and social capital, which i've been thinking about in terms of all the emotional labor involved in building up said 'human and social capital':
But social capital is also difficult to measure for another reason [besides there being no objective way to measure social networks and cultural values]: there are many ways for social relationships to have economic value. Consider the distinction between bridging social capital and bonding social capital, which is a popular distinction in the literature. Bridging social capital, as its name suggests, is the social capital that an individual has when her peers do not know each other. She can arbitrage information or goods between groups that she belongs to, and she can recombine information that is accessible only from her privileged position in a social or professional network...all that says to me is that we underinvest in social capital (and its measurement) because we do not consider it (because it's not measured...) and i think that's largely as a result of emotional labor (that generates social capital) being 'invisible' to the powers that be. the challenge then is to make them see, such that they cannot ignore :P
Bonding social capital is the complement of bridging social capital. Bonding social capital is accumulated in dense social structures characterized by strong links. These are the links we share with our best friends and lifelong collaborators. Bonding links are also the links that we use to produce things, since complex productive activities are not viable among people who do not interact regularly. In other words, bonding social capital represents the tacit ability of a group of people with recurring interactions to act as a team, which is different from the asymmetries of information that allow individuals with bridging social capital to generate economic value...
These limitations make measures of social capital troublesome to construct, and they also imply that these measures are available only for a restricted number of countries. Yet the trickle of data on social capital that researchers have collected so far still suggests that social capital does contribute to economic growth models, finding a positive association between social capital and economic growth after controlling for the previously known factors. Social capital, even though elusive from an empirical standpoint, was associated with economic growth.
on that note, here are some words of wisdom that i recently came across: "A great explanation of why 'be respectful' especially across unstated power dynamics fails."
Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes they use "respect" to mean "treating someone like an authority"cheers!
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say "if you won't respect me I won't respect you" and they mean "if you won't treat me like an authority I won't treat you like a person"
and they think they're being fair but they aren't, and it's not okay.
---
*e.g. witness finland: "Finland provides three years of maternity leave and subsidized day care to parents, and preschool for all 5-year-olds, where the emphasis is on play and socializing. In addition, the state subsidizes parents, paying them around 150 euros per month for every child until he or she turns 17."
posted by kliuless at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2015 [45 favorites]
“Try not to cry at this series of short films showing struggles working mothers face in Japan,” Evie Lund, RocketNews24, 13 August 2015
Cybozu: Mom Who Work, That You Cuddle
“All right”
“That you can not only to Papa”
P.S. Google Translations. Sorry.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:03 PM on August 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Cybozu: Mom Who Work, That You Cuddle
“All right”
“That you can not only to Papa”
P.S. Google Translations. Sorry.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:03 PM on August 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Could I belatedly get the link for the Google group too? My email's in my profile. Thanks so much.
posted by jokeefe at 12:21 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by jokeefe at 12:21 PM on August 13, 2015
Google Group link is in my profile. I try to check in and approve requests every hour or two.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Lyn Never at 12:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just a heads-up for folks who are new to the site: MetaFilter threads close after one month. Closed threads are still readable but no longer accept new comments. So if you want to say anything in here, you've got about two days.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
(To share a thing that has been making me smile: a couple of days ago, I realised that blueberry yoghurt dude had been - quietly and unobtrusively and without any fuss whatsoever - scrupulously observing a boundary I'd stated without even noticing, despite the fact that doing so was, with hindsight on my part and not a hint of it from him directly, not actually a thing he was much enjoying.)
-- which actually leads me onto another thought about thoughtlessness; specifically, the idea that if we just tried harder to explain, made it more obvious what we were doing and what we wanted, we'd get it -- the idea that we're not communicating enough. And on the one hand, yes, doing that communication (or on the other hand the anticipation of needs) is emotional labour; and yet making it our responsibility to explain our desires and needs and preferences in ever simpler language is... well. It reminds me of the way a lot of my nearest & dearest, many of whom are abuse survivors, want to believe that any argument or disagreement is their fault, caused by them, because they didn't behave right and they weren't good enough.
Because if it's us failing then we can fix it. By just - "just" - being better.
And perhaps that is why I spent so long desperately trying to explain to the terrible ex that it was really upsetting to me when he did [whatever], because if it was the case that I wasn't being clear enough about why I was upset, instead of it being that he - ahem - just didn't care...
posted by kaberett at 3:48 PM on August 13, 2015 [34 favorites]
-- which actually leads me onto another thought about thoughtlessness; specifically, the idea that if we just tried harder to explain, made it more obvious what we were doing and what we wanted, we'd get it -- the idea that we're not communicating enough. And on the one hand, yes, doing that communication (or on the other hand the anticipation of needs) is emotional labour; and yet making it our responsibility to explain our desires and needs and preferences in ever simpler language is... well. It reminds me of the way a lot of my nearest & dearest, many of whom are abuse survivors, want to believe that any argument or disagreement is their fault, caused by them, because they didn't behave right and they weren't good enough.
Because if it's us failing then we can fix it. By just - "just" - being better.
And perhaps that is why I spent so long desperately trying to explain to the terrible ex that it was really upsetting to me when he did [whatever], because if it was the case that I wasn't being clear enough about why I was upset, instead of it being that he - ahem - just didn't care...
posted by kaberett at 3:48 PM on August 13, 2015 [34 favorites]
The catch-22 of being upset enough sucks. I've had to explain over and over that I don't like the way that things have to reach breaking point, where I'm crying uncontrollably and forgetting to eat in order for my needs to be taken seriously, since asking and voicing my concerns isn't enough. I don't like having to slap my hand on the table and say 'stop'' because all my 'ugh' and 'ew' and 'no this is gross' isn't enough to signal that the conversation is going places I don't want it to.
I hate having to explain that this isn't silent treatment, as if I want to talk but I'm refusing to out of pique, it's that I genuinely am done talking. I have tried talking. It didn't work. Now I have to do emergency mental healthcare, so yeah, your sudden need to talk can wait.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [59 favorites]
I hate having to explain that this isn't silent treatment, as if I want to talk but I'm refusing to out of pique, it's that I genuinely am done talking. I have tried talking. It didn't work. Now I have to do emergency mental healthcare, so yeah, your sudden need to talk can wait.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [59 favorites]
Oh, hey, basically *everything this thread was about* on display right here:
Ask Dr. Nerdlove: My Husband Always Makes Me The Jerk
posted by CrystalDave at 6:40 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ask Dr. Nerdlove: My Husband Always Makes Me The Jerk
posted by CrystalDave at 6:40 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Goodness, geek anachronism, each and every one of your comments is like another hit for me. This too?? Another thing where I am not the crazy irrational bitch, but it's something that guys do par for the course?
Dang, maybe I should have done more crying to be taken seriously. I only cried a little bit, and then decided to leave.
posted by Ender's Friend at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Dang, maybe I should have done more crying to be taken seriously. I only cried a little bit, and then decided to leave.
posted by Ender's Friend at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I would totally Not Be Sad if someone awesome did a round-up of caring and activism and self-care links as a giant FPP and timed it to post the very last day of this post as a somewhat unofficial round two....
I would offer to do it except I have to go file divorce papers today.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:35 PM on August 13, 2015 [34 favorites]
I would offer to do it except I have to go file divorce papers today.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:35 PM on August 13, 2015 [34 favorites]
I wasted three hours of my work day today arguing with a dude I supervise about a decision it was my responsibility to make. After I outlined my reasoning and reinforced the fact that it was my decision (with extreme politeness, because he's been belligerent in the past about taking "orders" from me), he slammed my door and went and got an older male employee not on our team (who *just so happens* to have had problems with sexist behavior in the past) and brought him into my office to try and tell me what to do. Said older male employee reports "X is the way we always do it here, everyone does it that way." When I raised the point that my boss (who is also his boss, and is out of town) does it my way and in fact asked me to do it her way (*her* being an operative word...), he responds, "Maybe that's true. But my way is better." I finally get in touch with my boss, who laughs knowingly at this story and says to do it my way (her way). Dude I supervise is cc'd on the email I send announcing the decision and responds "thx for handling."
By the way, all of this kerfluffle was over a completely insignificant issue. Three hours of my time and interrupting my boss's vacation. Because a dude I supervise wanted it his way. But fuck if I was giving in.
posted by sallybrown at 7:50 PM on August 13, 2015 [58 favorites]
By the way, all of this kerfluffle was over a completely insignificant issue. Three hours of my time and interrupting my boss's vacation. Because a dude I supervise wanted it his way. But fuck if I was giving in.
posted by sallybrown at 7:50 PM on August 13, 2015 [58 favorites]
Oh and then I leave work and my male friend texts me asking what time I'm picking him up. Which I had already sent him three emails about. When I text back "Same as I've told you in three emails this week," he responds with a sad face emoji and says "email is annoying to search, just tell me."
*ommmmmmmmmmmmm*
posted by sallybrown at 7:51 PM on August 13, 2015 [21 favorites]
*ommmmmmmmmmmmm*
posted by sallybrown at 7:51 PM on August 13, 2015 [21 favorites]
Never. I am picking you up never. Good bye.
posted by mythical anthropomorphic amphibian at 8:24 PM on August 13, 2015 [55 favorites]
posted by mythical anthropomorphic amphibian at 8:24 PM on August 13, 2015 [55 favorites]
"The catch-22 of being upset enough sucks"
The only thing worse than that is realizing that there is no way you can get upset enough to get the other person to fucking stop, even if you are screaming at the top of your lungs for them to do it, because they are gonna get their way/ignore you no matter what. And then people lecture me about my lack of "boundaries."
If this is my last post in this thread, which is likely because I think I'm gonna be busy after this point, goodnight, all, it's been a good experience and I need to go read more Crone Island.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:01 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
The only thing worse than that is realizing that there is no way you can get upset enough to get the other person to fucking stop, even if you are screaming at the top of your lungs for them to do it, because they are gonna get their way/ignore you no matter what. And then people lecture me about my lack of "boundaries."
If this is my last post in this thread, which is likely because I think I'm gonna be busy after this point, goodnight, all, it's been a good experience and I need to go read more Crone Island.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:01 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
dorothyisunderwood, I hope that you are doing ok. Hugs.
posted by futz at 11:02 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by futz at 11:02 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
OH my god. "thx for handling." I would not have survived it. My head would have lifted off my neck and rocketed to the ceiling and atomized all over my office.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:41 AM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 4:41 AM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
On the subject of when something is really a problem... I've told this story here before: In our last house, my husband and I bought a refrigerator that wouldn't fit through the kitchen door without some molding being removed. I couldn't do this (at the time), he wouldn't do it, and the 'frig sat in the dining room, where it functioned but was inconvenient. Until I moved it into the hall and blocked easy access to the kitchen. Once he saw that, he realized that there was a problem and promptly took off the molding and put the refrigerator in the kitchen, where it belonged.
That was 15 years ago. I still have not fully reckoned with the asymmetry--when my husband says "Hey, could you please do X today?" or mentions that he ran into a problem, I will address it that day, or let him know that I'm working on a solution. My problems require multiple reminders, clearly stated; the occasional mention to the male neighbor (and suddenly, using the dump trailer to haul barn trash to the dump makes perfect sense, when the neighbor proposes it--I had been talking about it for TWO YEARS); and/or making a complete physical mess of a space/object that is above my expertise/ability to handle. And this is a man who is supposed to be on my side! Maddening.
Dear Crone Islanders: thank you for your stories, your understanding, your empathy, and your ability to take articulated concerns seriously as a part of sustaining relationship. Cheers!
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:11 AM on August 14, 2015 [42 favorites]
That was 15 years ago. I still have not fully reckoned with the asymmetry--when my husband says "Hey, could you please do X today?" or mentions that he ran into a problem, I will address it that day, or let him know that I'm working on a solution. My problems require multiple reminders, clearly stated; the occasional mention to the male neighbor (and suddenly, using the dump trailer to haul barn trash to the dump makes perfect sense, when the neighbor proposes it--I had been talking about it for TWO YEARS); and/or making a complete physical mess of a space/object that is above my expertise/ability to handle. And this is a man who is supposed to be on my side! Maddening.
Dear Crone Islanders: thank you for your stories, your understanding, your empathy, and your ability to take articulated concerns seriously as a part of sustaining relationship. Cheers!
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:11 AM on August 14, 2015 [42 favorites]
Hey, I just had another connect-the-dots moment and wanted to share. I was reading some stuff about the Target gendered-aisle change, and as part of that some mentions of differing male and female shopping behaviors came up: especially pieces like this Men Buy, Women Shop, about how women "happily meander" the aisles of stores. I realized that the whole "women be shopping" thing is - at least in part - another product of emotional labor. Why does it take me longer to shop? Because I'm usually not walking in, making a beeline to something I already decided I want, and dashing out. Instead, on a typical trip to the mall or even the grocery store, I"m reviewing what there is on offer, comparing prices to protect the household budget, thinking about upcoming birthday and holiday gifts, mentally asking myself if we all have enough underwear and socks and inventorying them in my mind, wondering if my husband needs new work shirts, considering the upcoming meetings/travel/presentations I have and thinking about what appropriate wear will be because I know how closely my outfits will be evaluated, remembering that I have a potluck meeting or a guest coming for dinner or treats for work next week and have to pick up extra ingredients for that, trying to think of a recipe on the fly for the potluck, blah blah blah. In short, when I'm "happily meandering the aisles" looking like a brainless lady shopping, I'm involved in a detailed life review that's taking into account my own needs and everyone else in my family and work life's needs in the immediate future. Of course it takes longer.
So fuck that - when you're working as hard as I am while shopping, you can make fun of how I'm "more invested in the shopping experience." Damn right I am - I'm in it for more than just myself, right now.
posted by Miko at 6:34 AM on August 14, 2015 [78 favorites]
So fuck that - when you're working as hard as I am while shopping, you can make fun of how I'm "more invested in the shopping experience." Damn right I am - I'm in it for more than just myself, right now.
posted by Miko at 6:34 AM on August 14, 2015 [78 favorites]
Heh. My version of that in stores is "Well, I don't know when I'm ever coming back here," (this is how you think when you don't know how to drive) "let's see if there's anything else around here I need while I'm at it." The idea of driving to a store, walking in and getting one thing and leaving is so weird to me. I actually did it once recently (I needed a specialty item that only one place in town had, then a friend called and I needed to GTFO to go meet her) and it was so strange. I felt like I should be apologizing for not buying more or something.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 AM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, that: Being in it for more than just one's self takes WORK, emotional, mental, and physical (which makes me look at 'empathy' in a different light). Cleaning up after yourself because someone else uses a space after you? Remembering that someone else in the house is out of shaving cream? Making a call/sending a card/remembering a personal fact in conversation? All being in it for more than one's self, and that's work, visible or not, acknowledged or not, paid or not. Believe it.
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:00 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:00 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
If you haven't seen this skit yet about emotional labor from Allison Raskin and Gaby Dunn (Just Between Us), definitely watch!
posted by Mouse Army at 7:46 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Mouse Army at 7:46 AM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
We have lived in the same apartment now for almost 2.5 years. Upstairs, in a little storage room off the balcony that's probably made for hiding summer furniture over winter, there's a stack of empty moving boxes.
One month ago I remembered their existence and asked my husband and/or son to recycle them.
Tomorrow I will ask them again, and then move the boxes out of the storage room and onto the balcony.
The next day I will ask them again, and collapse the boxes into flat cardboard.
The following week I'll bundle the boxes with twine and put them downstairs by the front door.
The week after that I will yell at husband or son to finally recycle the fucking boxes.
I know it's a hard job for them to do, but they'll feel so good after getting it done.
#theboxparttwo
posted by tracicle at 8:03 AM on August 14, 2015 [28 favorites]
One month ago I remembered their existence and asked my husband and/or son to recycle them.
Tomorrow I will ask them again, and then move the boxes out of the storage room and onto the balcony.
The next day I will ask them again, and collapse the boxes into flat cardboard.
The following week I'll bundle the boxes with twine and put them downstairs by the front door.
The week after that I will yell at husband or son to finally recycle the fucking boxes.
I know it's a hard job for them to do, but they'll feel so good after getting it done.
#theboxparttwo
posted by tracicle at 8:03 AM on August 14, 2015 [28 favorites]
OH my god. "thx for handling." I would not have survived it. My head would have lifted off my neck and rocketed to the ceiling and atomized all over my office.
OMG, IKR?
And wouldn't you think sallybrown's boss could have replied with something like, "As a matter of fact, sallybrown already handled it, so start doing your job and listening to her"?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:37 AM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
OMG, IKR?
And wouldn't you think sallybrown's boss could have replied with something like, "As a matter of fact, sallybrown already handled it, so start doing your job and listening to her"?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:37 AM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
The discussion of Crone Island brought to mind Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Space Crone".
I keep trying to work out what to say about it, but I'll just say that reading Le Guin in general, and this collection of essays in particular, was probably my first window into the issues of emotional labor that have been discussed here.
posted by oakroom at 8:52 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
I keep trying to work out what to say about it, but I'll just say that reading Le Guin in general, and this collection of essays in particular, was probably my first window into the issues of emotional labor that have been discussed here.
posted by oakroom at 8:52 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
Happy belated birthday, HotToddy! I hope you got more acknowledgment than attempted/failed flowers.
In the waning hours of this thread I feel like we should be staying up all night each with the drink of our choice (mine will have to be coffee if we're staying up, and even so I will likely nod off before midnight) just to see this remarkable thread out. I'm so glad so many good things have come from it — the Google group, essays, blog posts, revelations, inspiration, and more. Thanks again to everyone who shared, moderated, or just witnessed.
Also, while free time and energy are in rather dire short supply in my life at the moment, if there's ever momentum to make a kind of collective handbook on emotional labor (I'm thinking along the lines of the original version of Our Bodies Ourselves) definitely count me in. I would be happy to contribute what time and skills I can.
posted by rafaella gabriela sarsaparilla at 10:10 AM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
In the waning hours of this thread I feel like we should be staying up all night each with the drink of our choice (mine will have to be coffee if we're staying up, and even so I will likely nod off before midnight) just to see this remarkable thread out. I'm so glad so many good things have come from it — the Google group, essays, blog posts, revelations, inspiration, and more. Thanks again to everyone who shared, moderated, or just witnessed.
Also, while free time and energy are in rather dire short supply in my life at the moment, if there's ever momentum to make a kind of collective handbook on emotional labor (I'm thinking along the lines of the original version of Our Bodies Ourselves) definitely count me in. I would be happy to contribute what time and skills I can.
posted by rafaella gabriela sarsaparilla at 10:10 AM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
...if there's ever momentum to make a kind of collective handbook on emotional labor (I'm thinking along the lines of the original version of Our Bodies Ourselves) definitely count me in. I would be happy to contribute what time and skills I can.
Yes yes yes!! I, too, am very short on free time and energy at the moment, but I would go to great lengths to make time to contribute to any sort of feminist book project on emotional labour, even if it's just proofreading or telling people about it on social media.
posted by velvet winter at 10:19 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
Yes yes yes!! I, too, am very short on free time and energy at the moment, but I would go to great lengths to make time to contribute to any sort of feminist book project on emotional labour, even if it's just proofreading or telling people about it on social media.
posted by velvet winter at 10:19 AM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
This thread has made me realize what a disastrous marriage I avoided by breaking it off with my college boyfriend of three years for some long-haired metalhead who was a very competent sound engineer (for a college radio station). He wasn't a bad person, I still like him, but he was not capable of EL.
The metalhead is above average on daily EL, and fantastic in a crisis, small or large, short or long term. He picked up the slack for months when my mother died; is always willing to remove my rear blinker when I've left it on the bike *again*.
(And one more new membership here.)
posted by JawnBigboote at 10:42 AM on August 14, 2015 [14 favorites]
The metalhead is above average on daily EL, and fantastic in a crisis, small or large, short or long term. He picked up the slack for months when my mother died; is always willing to remove my rear blinker when I've left it on the bike *again*.
(And one more new membership here.)
posted by JawnBigboote at 10:42 AM on August 14, 2015 [14 favorites]
THE BOX IS GONE I REPEAT THE BOX IS GONE
posted by sciatrix at 10:43 AM on August 14, 2015 [52 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 10:43 AM on August 14, 2015 [52 favorites]
Happy belated birthday, HotToddy! I hope you got more acknowledgment than attempted/failed flowers.
Thank you! I also got a bag of the chocolates that HE likes and that I've told him many, many times I don't like. Two nights after he went out to get us ice cream and came back with the one (the only one!) that HE likes but I've told him many, many times I don't like. But, he did also get me a very excellent gift that caters to my interests.
posted by HotToddy at 10:44 AM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Thank you! I also got a bag of the chocolates that HE likes and that I've told him many, many times I don't like. Two nights after he went out to get us ice cream and came back with the one (the only one!) that HE likes but I've told him many, many times I don't like. But, he did also get me a very excellent gift that caters to my interests.
posted by HotToddy at 10:44 AM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I just watched Election last night because it showed up on Netflix. I still and always love that movie, not least because of the scenes where Tracy Flick gets angry and the music is, I'm pretty sure, these guys all-out shrieking as only they can shriek. It is awesome. I don't know whether it's this thread or whether it's that I'm finally reading the movie right, but I can no longer sympathize properly with Mathew Broderick and the sweet brainless football player guy and be properly appalled by Reese Witherspoon. I couldn't stand this girl in highschool, but now I'm positively in love with her. Especially compared to the sniveling "Mr. M.," she's not just an emotional laborer, she's an emotional warrior. She rages, she mourns, she exults. She inspires, she delights. She prevails. She's my new higher power.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:52 AM on August 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 10:52 AM on August 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
the sweet brainless football player guy
But the sweet brainless football player guy LOVES Tracey Flick! He admires her moxie and hopes she wins. And he also loves his sister and worries about her emotional state and prays that she will be happy and loved.
Chris Klein is a garbage misogynist grossbag, but I love that character because he loves his sister and he respects Tracey.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:58 AM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
But the sweet brainless football player guy LOVES Tracey Flick! He admires her moxie and hopes she wins. And he also loves his sister and worries about her emotional state and prays that she will be happy and loved.
Chris Klein is a garbage misogynist grossbag, but I love that character because he loves his sister and he respects Tracey.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:58 AM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
I know, I like that guy, too, but it's like I have to. Everything comes easy to him, including the natural regard of the audience, whereas everything Tracy Flick gets, including the love of the audience, is very hard won. The movie actively sets out to assassinate Tracy Flick's already inherently unlikeable (because we recognize immediately the annoying girl who was in charge of pep squad) character. M. Broderick, whom we're primed to adore because he's the first person we see and because of his endearingly dorky teacher clothes and mannerisms and because of every other adorable role he's ever played in every other adorable movie, doesn't like her. And there are all those freezes with Reese Witherspoon caught in the most unflattering facial position possible. The movie tries to make the audience hate her and then shows what that kind of dislike has done to her and then shows her triumphing in spite of it. Paul is awwww but Tracy Flick is epic.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:49 AM on August 14, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 11:49 AM on August 14, 2015 [13 favorites]
> THE BOX IS GONE I REPEAT THE BOX IS GONE
Aw, man! I was going to have the empty bookcase (that I can't move, that's sitting in the doorway between the dining room and the living room and has been for a month) send it a Christmas card.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:58 AM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
Aw, man! I was going to have the empty bookcase (that I can't move, that's sitting in the doorway between the dining room and the living room and has been for a month) send it a Christmas card.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:58 AM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
Ha ha! That is some major EL for a bookcase to manage.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:00 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 12:00 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Billy is quite enlightened.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
THE BOX IS GONE I REPEAT THE BOX IS GONE
Is it sad my first thought was "I wonder who called and asked about it/reminded him" or something along those lines?
posted by emptythought at 12:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is it sad my first thought was "I wonder who called and asked about it/reminded him" or something along those lines?
posted by emptythought at 12:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
THE BOX IS GONE I REPEAT THE BOX IS GONE
Is it sad my first thought was "I wonder who called and asked about it/reminded him" or something along those lines?
Trust me, no one reminded him any more today than any other day. He either:
1) got as tired as I was looking at it (less likely)
2) had another errand to run that made this one easy (much more plausible)
or
3) His mother bugging him all month finally had the effect intended. So even though I didn't expend much energy on the box (except the whole twitter account thing) she spent an inordinate amount of energy on it.
As for how long it gets left in the car, there is no car - he only rides a motorcycle, so wherever the box has ended up, at least I don't have to look at it.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:23 PM on August 14, 2015 [27 favorites]
Is it sad my first thought was "I wonder who called and asked about it/reminded him" or something along those lines?
Trust me, no one reminded him any more today than any other day. He either:
1) got as tired as I was looking at it (less likely)
2) had another errand to run that made this one easy (much more plausible)
or
3) His mother bugging him all month finally had the effect intended. So even though I didn't expend much energy on the box (except the whole twitter account thing) she spent an inordinate amount of energy on it.
As for how long it gets left in the car, there is no car - he only rides a motorcycle, so wherever the box has ended up, at least I don't have to look at it.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:23 PM on August 14, 2015 [27 favorites]
There are more than 2000+ comments. This thread has changed/is changing my life.
I'm a poly gal. A poly guy on OKC, who doesn't want to date me because I have herpes (which is fine by me, I didn't date folks with herpes before I was infected, either), writes the following: "I'd like to meet you for coffee sometime and use you as a sounding board. My relationship just opened up. I'm a reformed serial cheater. The poly stuff is creating a lot of jealousy in my relationship. It would be helpful to talk to you about that." Me: "That sounds like emotional labor. I charge for that. No thanks."
My ex primary, who I broke up with 3 years ago because I knew everything about him, his friends and his family but who refused to meet any of my friends and didn't want to know anything about me because our relationship was supposed to be a vacation, tells me I'm the only one he can talk to about his romantic life. He texts me: When can we get together? My answer: I'm super busy.
One Sunday, a year after I had separated from my husband, my kid and I decided to go out to lunch before her dad came over and started his week as in-house parent and I left for the week. He got there early, just before we left.
Kid: Daddy, do you want to have lunch with us? We're going to X.
Dad: I don't really like that place.
Kid: What about Y? You like that place.
Dad: It's too expensive.
Kid, sounding increasingly frantic: We could go to Z instead.
Dad: I'm not in the mood for that.
Kid: What if we went to the store and bought stuff for lunch?
Me (noticing the entire history of my failed marriage being reenacted before my eyes by my daughter and her dad): Kiddo, we made a plan that makes us happy. Your dad can just stay home if he doesn't want to join us. (Dad comes along and is gracious.)
At the job I held briefly last year, a tech startup, a bunch of food was bought once a week for the staff. One day a new 30-something guy, B, and a 20-something guy, N, are standing by the refrigerator talking as I pass by. B looks up and asks if I know where the cream cheese is. Nope, I say. Maybe it's in the freezer, B, says, and opens the freezer door. He pulls out a plastic tub of cream cheese. N, his conversation buddy, is standing 3 feet away. I'm about 10 feet away but I'm the one B turns to and asks, "What's the best way to thaw cream cheese?" And I lose it. I look at him and snarl, "Are you asking me because I have ovaries? Because I have no fucking idea. I didn't even know it was possible to freeze cream cheese." The 20+ N, when he stops laughing, says "That's like when I opened a door for a woman in Copenhagen and she started yelling at me." I leave.
It is Christmas. My mom is divorced and the two of us live in a shitty, 1-bedroom apartment. My mom has opened her gift from her mother, who is the reason we have moved to this town. It is a blouse. The card says my mom will get a blender, like her sister, when she has a husband again.
It is summer. I am 23, graduated from college, a year into a job I love and newly married (we eloped). My mom sends me a card and includes this tip: If I spray Pledge on dust mop, it will make cleaning a lot easier. I don't own a dust mop.
I don't live with my primary partner of 3 years because I am never making myself small for someone again. My sweetie is wonderful and human. He makes mistakes. I make mistakes. My biggest mistakes involve female friends, ones I haven't stayed in touch with because it seemed like too much work. While I chased after and dated self-involved men who took me for granted. Not my sweetie but others, like the lover I just broke up with because he wanted me to do emotional labor that he never explained or requested but simply expected to receive and got angry when he didn't.
There are more than 2000+ comments here. This thread has changed and is changing many lives. Thank you, OP. Thank you, contributors. Thank you, moderators.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [69 favorites]
I'm a poly gal. A poly guy on OKC, who doesn't want to date me because I have herpes (which is fine by me, I didn't date folks with herpes before I was infected, either), writes the following: "I'd like to meet you for coffee sometime and use you as a sounding board. My relationship just opened up. I'm a reformed serial cheater. The poly stuff is creating a lot of jealousy in my relationship. It would be helpful to talk to you about that." Me: "That sounds like emotional labor. I charge for that. No thanks."
My ex primary, who I broke up with 3 years ago because I knew everything about him, his friends and his family but who refused to meet any of my friends and didn't want to know anything about me because our relationship was supposed to be a vacation, tells me I'm the only one he can talk to about his romantic life. He texts me: When can we get together? My answer: I'm super busy.
One Sunday, a year after I had separated from my husband, my kid and I decided to go out to lunch before her dad came over and started his week as in-house parent and I left for the week. He got there early, just before we left.
Kid: Daddy, do you want to have lunch with us? We're going to X.
Dad: I don't really like that place.
Kid: What about Y? You like that place.
Dad: It's too expensive.
Kid, sounding increasingly frantic: We could go to Z instead.
Dad: I'm not in the mood for that.
Kid: What if we went to the store and bought stuff for lunch?
Me (noticing the entire history of my failed marriage being reenacted before my eyes by my daughter and her dad): Kiddo, we made a plan that makes us happy. Your dad can just stay home if he doesn't want to join us. (Dad comes along and is gracious.)
At the job I held briefly last year, a tech startup, a bunch of food was bought once a week for the staff. One day a new 30-something guy, B, and a 20-something guy, N, are standing by the refrigerator talking as I pass by. B looks up and asks if I know where the cream cheese is. Nope, I say. Maybe it's in the freezer, B, says, and opens the freezer door. He pulls out a plastic tub of cream cheese. N, his conversation buddy, is standing 3 feet away. I'm about 10 feet away but I'm the one B turns to and asks, "What's the best way to thaw cream cheese?" And I lose it. I look at him and snarl, "Are you asking me because I have ovaries? Because I have no fucking idea. I didn't even know it was possible to freeze cream cheese." The 20+ N, when he stops laughing, says "That's like when I opened a door for a woman in Copenhagen and she started yelling at me." I leave.
It is Christmas. My mom is divorced and the two of us live in a shitty, 1-bedroom apartment. My mom has opened her gift from her mother, who is the reason we have moved to this town. It is a blouse. The card says my mom will get a blender, like her sister, when she has a husband again.
It is summer. I am 23, graduated from college, a year into a job I love and newly married (we eloped). My mom sends me a card and includes this tip: If I spray Pledge on dust mop, it will make cleaning a lot easier. I don't own a dust mop.
I don't live with my primary partner of 3 years because I am never making myself small for someone again. My sweetie is wonderful and human. He makes mistakes. I make mistakes. My biggest mistakes involve female friends, ones I haven't stayed in touch with because it seemed like too much work. While I chased after and dated self-involved men who took me for granted. Not my sweetie but others, like the lover I just broke up with because he wanted me to do emotional labor that he never explained or requested but simply expected to receive and got angry when he didn't.
There are more than 2000+ comments here. This thread has changed and is changing many lives. Thank you, OP. Thank you, contributors. Thank you, moderators.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [69 favorites]
@theboxwatch served its purpose honorably. Its total effect cannot be known, but it has entered the language of my relationship with my husband. When he neglects one of his regular tasks, I now say to my him, "So the unloaded dishwasher and full dirty sink are about to get their own Twitter feed. Capiche?"
Lest I seem Scrooge-y: I certainly do his part of things when he's not well or slammed at work. But when he's doing great in general and just slackin' then I think a reminder is appropriate :)
Gonna miss this thread and all of y'all!! So be on Crone Island if you can, okay?
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:53 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
Lest I seem Scrooge-y: I certainly do his part of things when he's not well or slammed at work. But when he's doing great in general and just slackin' then I think a reminder is appropriate :)
Gonna miss this thread and all of y'all!! So be on Crone Island if you can, okay?
posted by sister nunchaku of love and mercy at 2:53 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
Oh, this thread. I will finally be closing its tab soon (and it holds the record for tab longevity by a lot!) and I will miss it fiercely. Thank you all so, so much.
posted by skybluepink at 3:31 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 3:31 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
The catch-22 of being upset enough sucks.
The only thing worse than that is realizing that there is no way you can get upset enough to get the other person to fucking stop, even if you are screaming at the top of your lungs for them to do it, because they are gonna get their way/ignore you no matter what. And then people lecture me about my lack of "boundaries."
It's almost like there's a direct connection to rape culture, where women are constantly asked if we said no, if we fought back, if we fought back hard enough...
posted by bile and syntax at 3:49 PM on August 14, 2015 [20 favorites]
The only thing worse than that is realizing that there is no way you can get upset enough to get the other person to fucking stop, even if you are screaming at the top of your lungs for them to do it, because they are gonna get their way/ignore you no matter what. And then people lecture me about my lack of "boundaries."
It's almost like there's a direct connection to rape culture, where women are constantly asked if we said no, if we fought back, if we fought back hard enough...
posted by bile and syntax at 3:49 PM on August 14, 2015 [20 favorites]
My husband and I once went to see a therapist, alone, who was treating our daughter. And the therapist listened to me and listened to him and then she looked at my husband and said, "If your wife says there is a problem, there is a problem." My entire marriage consisted of me presenting an issue to my husband who would respond in one of these ways:
1. That's not a problem, because it doesn't bother me.
2. That's not a problem, because it's universal and affects everyone.
3. That's a problem that's too big too solve so we shouldn't even try.
At one point I was so upset I told my husband, "Look, if I tell you there's a dragon on the balcony, that means I need your help. Even if you can't see a dragon, I can. So help me out."
We've been separated for 8 years now and he's a billion times more validating and helpful now that we live on separate continents. Only now can he hear me.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [49 favorites]
1. That's not a problem, because it doesn't bother me.
2. That's not a problem, because it's universal and affects everyone.
3. That's a problem that's too big too solve so we shouldn't even try.
At one point I was so upset I told my husband, "Look, if I tell you there's a dragon on the balcony, that means I need your help. Even if you can't see a dragon, I can. So help me out."
We've been separated for 8 years now and he's a billion times more validating and helpful now that we live on separate continents. Only now can he hear me.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [49 favorites]
I first learned about emotional labor when my father called from work to tell my mother he'd lost a filling, and could the dentist squeeze him in to fix it? So my mother calls the dentist. They offer her two times. My mother calls my father back at work, but he's not at his desk and they can't find him. She has to keep calling, and is getting frustrated. I innocently ask, "Why couldn't he have called himself?" and got, literally, no answer, I guess because my mother wasn't prepared to deal with the fact that she had to do a lot of crap for him that he could easily have done himself, but that she had to do instead because she was The Wife. Or didn't want to badmouth him to me, or something.
It got to where every time my mother called the dentist and said, "This is Mrs. Land," the receptionist would say, "Oh goodness, what did he do now?"
posted by JanetLand at 4:08 PM on August 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
It got to where every time my mother called the dentist and said, "This is Mrs. Land," the receptionist would say, "Oh goodness, what did he do now?"
posted by JanetLand at 4:08 PM on August 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
It's almost like there's a direct connection to rape culture, where women are constantly asked if we said no, if we fought back, if we fought back hard enough...
Yep. I was recently re-reading some stuff about affirmative consent for sex, and I think one of the reasons that some guys get so upset about the relatively clear "dude, just make sure your partner is into it and actually wants it" is that they don't practice that basic observation and empathy in any aspects of their sexual or romantic relationships. They see requirements to practice affirmative consent (to, ya know, avoid raping someone) as having to do all this "extra" emotional labor around sex. They should be doing that "extra" emotional labor in all aspects of their relationship, but their failure in that respect merely makes them engage in asshole behavior rather than potentially criminal behavior, so it hasn't gotten as much media attention yet.
On a related topic, does anyone remember (a link to) an article that came out this spring - in feministing or xojane or bitch magazine online or huffpo women or similar - by a woman describing finding out that a guy she had slept with had raped other women, and that confirming a creepy, uncomfortable feeling that she had during her encounter with the guy (she had been into the sex they had, but had gotten a sense that, if she had not been, he would have gone ahead with it regardless)?
posted by eviemath at 4:10 PM on August 14, 2015 [39 favorites]
Yep. I was recently re-reading some stuff about affirmative consent for sex, and I think one of the reasons that some guys get so upset about the relatively clear "dude, just make sure your partner is into it and actually wants it" is that they don't practice that basic observation and empathy in any aspects of their sexual or romantic relationships. They see requirements to practice affirmative consent (to, ya know, avoid raping someone) as having to do all this "extra" emotional labor around sex. They should be doing that "extra" emotional labor in all aspects of their relationship, but their failure in that respect merely makes them engage in asshole behavior rather than potentially criminal behavior, so it hasn't gotten as much media attention yet.
On a related topic, does anyone remember (a link to) an article that came out this spring - in feministing or xojane or bitch magazine online or huffpo women or similar - by a woman describing finding out that a guy she had slept with had raped other women, and that confirming a creepy, uncomfortable feeling that she had during her encounter with the guy (she had been into the sex they had, but had gotten a sense that, if she had not been, he would have gone ahead with it regardless)?
posted by eviemath at 4:10 PM on August 14, 2015 [39 favorites]
I just watched Election for the first time and I couldn't believe people like that movie. A movie about how a peppy, successful teenage girl is such a c*nt? And how she ruined a grown man's life because she had an affair with him? Because she was precocious? I know it's a "satire" but as Don Pepino pointed out, the focal character is supposed to be some kind of frustrated everyman or something, even if he's a pathetic frustrated everyman, and the weird leering pedo angle pushed it over the top for me.
I like the dude character but for some reason we think likable guy = great leader! and likable woman = knows her place! and female leader = ball-busting bitch! and it's like, man sometimes I'm tired of even the likable guys.
posted by easter queen at 4:35 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
I like the dude character but for some reason we think likable guy = great leader! and likable woman = knows her place! and female leader = ball-busting bitch! and it's like, man sometimes I'm tired of even the likable guys.
posted by easter queen at 4:35 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
In case this thread gets to close without anyone saying it (and I dearly hope there will be a 2.0 along shortly), y'all have changed my life for the better, and things got really, really hard before they got slightly better. I think I learned how to anger from this thread, and I needed that. So thank you. Thank you. I have been so very much better at expressing thanks and so very much better at expecting thanks.
Thank you.
posted by lauranesson at 4:44 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Thank you.
posted by lauranesson at 4:44 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Re Election - is the teacher really supposed to be likeable? I feel like the movie depicts him as such a tool - cheating on his wife, having an affair with a student, just generally being pathetic. I always figured that the only person who isn't kind of awful is the lesbian sister. It's not, to my mind, a movie that's about good people. Which makes it actually all the more misogynist when Tracy is depicted extra unsympathetically - it's like, everyone is basically ridiculous and bad, but Tracy is worse. At the end where she's screaming at all the more laid-back kids at Georgetown (or wherever) I just want to go scream at them too and then make her a nice cup of cocoa, but then I have a thing for bad-tempered, driven people.
posted by Frowner at 5:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 5:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
bile and syntax, I have been thinking that this whole anticipating-people's-needs part of emotional labour starts to look an awful lot like hypervigilance in some cases. (I'm currently working specifically on PTSD shit in counselling; something my counsellor keeps trying to drill home is that there is, in fact, a distinction between taking responsibility for how other people feel, and the healthy bit of going "you are sad and I'd like to help fix it" without fear of consequences as a motivator.)
eviemath: ... holy shit. Thank you for that articulation. Wow.
posted by kaberett at 5:02 PM on August 14, 2015 [20 favorites]
eviemath: ... holy shit. Thank you for that articulation. Wow.
posted by kaberett at 5:02 PM on August 14, 2015 [20 favorites]
The catch-22 of being upset enough sucks. I've had to explain over and over that I don't like the way that things have to reach breaking point, where I'm crying uncontrollably and forgetting to eat in order for my needs to be taken seriously, since asking and voicing my concerns isn't enough.
***
The only thing worse than that is realizing that there is no way you can get upset enough to get the other person to fucking stop, even if you are screaming at the top of your lungs for them to do it, because they are gonna get their way/ignore you no matter what.
***
My entire marriage consisted of me presenting an issue to my husband who would respond in one of these ways:
1. That's not a problem, because it doesn't bother me.
2. That's not a problem, because it's universal and affects everyone.
3. That's a problem that's too big too solve so we shouldn't even try.
We need 2.0 ASAP because I don't have enough time in the next few hours to fully process and respond to the life-changing truth in these comments. I'm feeling panicky about losing this because it's been like a lifeline to sanity unexpectedly thrown to me during a very confusing time.
posted by HotToddy at 5:03 PM on August 14, 2015 [21 favorites]
***
The only thing worse than that is realizing that there is no way you can get upset enough to get the other person to fucking stop, even if you are screaming at the top of your lungs for them to do it, because they are gonna get their way/ignore you no matter what.
***
My entire marriage consisted of me presenting an issue to my husband who would respond in one of these ways:
1. That's not a problem, because it doesn't bother me.
2. That's not a problem, because it's universal and affects everyone.
3. That's a problem that's too big too solve so we shouldn't even try.
We need 2.0 ASAP because I don't have enough time in the next few hours to fully process and respond to the life-changing truth in these comments. I'm feeling panicky about losing this because it's been like a lifeline to sanity unexpectedly thrown to me during a very confusing time.
posted by HotToddy at 5:03 PM on August 14, 2015 [21 favorites]
I'm not sure it's about that, easter queen. That's what I thought the first time I saw it, but then then last night I noticed that the movie makes very clear that off the football field the kid was the opposite of a great leader--he just coasted. And "Mr. M." seemed likeable at first and then quickly became vile, very much on purpose. Tracy Flick it's the other way around. At first she's unsympathetic in the extreme, but then when her teacher cheats her and she "loses" the election and you see how much it means to her--and that's after you've watched the work she did to win it, the buttons, the posters, the cupcakes, the gum, all that work, and the likeable fratboy-to-be just glides in there, has it handed to him, look at his "speech," look at how blithe he is when he breaks his leg and loses his career, he knows everything's going to be fine no matter what. Versus how devastated she is when she loses this minor little high school election. Anyone who can watch that scene of Reese Witherspoon sobbing and still think the movie wants you to hate the character is not reading the movie right, I don't think. That scene and the one where she's jumping up and down in the hallway having been told she's won are supposed to win you over so that by the end when the teacher meets his well-deserved end, you're cheering for the valiant Tracy Flick. And I love love love the clever clever sister. She who Br'er Rabbits her way into Immaculate Heart. I think this movie is very much on the side of the girls--they're the only ones in the movie whose actions are effective and get them what they want.
Anyway whatever to this movie, this is a derail; what HotToddy said, 2.0!
posted by Don Pepino at 5:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [14 favorites]
Anyway whatever to this movie, this is a derail; what HotToddy said, 2.0!
posted by Don Pepino at 5:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [14 favorites]
I've been thinking about art, specifically women in art. Much like other female artists I've always been creative but I have squeezed my art into the crevices of my life: painting fabric, making baby quilts, designing mosaic stepping stones for my garden, rag rolling my walls in bold colors, making stained glass windows. I always felt sad that women were never well represented in art history, such a loss for humanity when you think about it, but I figured that most women were unable to become artists because they were busy being wives and mothers.
However when I took art history in college I was taught the Patriarchal theory that men needed to make great art ( or however they could best achieve fame and fortune) in order to attract women, women just needed to exist beautifully in order to attract men. And that is why All of the Great Artists Have Been Men.
Then a couple of years ago I saw the BBC documentary series Women in Art. It blew my mind. I was stunned at how little I knew about female artists who achieved great art and the tremendous barriers that they had to overcome. For example, up until only a hundred years ago or so art schools did not allow female students, there was no way for them to learn their craft. The few who did learn through private tutors had to pretend to paint male figures badly because a knowledge of male anatomy was the sign of a whore. It makes me furious that I never learned this school.
So what does this have to do with EL? Just this. I weep for all of those women in the past who had to sit and needlepoint flowers and keep their hopes and ambitions to themselves while being supportive of their family. All those women who knew that becoming an artist would mean stepping outside the acceptable boundaries. and it takes a very brave person to do that. I am so angry that women were bonsai-ed for so much of history. I hope that women of the future will have the freedom to grow any which way they can. And that means everyone has to do the EL, not just the women.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:16 PM on August 14, 2015 [39 favorites]
However when I took art history in college I was taught the Patriarchal theory that men needed to make great art ( or however they could best achieve fame and fortune) in order to attract women, women just needed to exist beautifully in order to attract men. And that is why All of the Great Artists Have Been Men.
Then a couple of years ago I saw the BBC documentary series Women in Art. It blew my mind. I was stunned at how little I knew about female artists who achieved great art and the tremendous barriers that they had to overcome. For example, up until only a hundred years ago or so art schools did not allow female students, there was no way for them to learn their craft. The few who did learn through private tutors had to pretend to paint male figures badly because a knowledge of male anatomy was the sign of a whore. It makes me furious that I never learned this school.
So what does this have to do with EL? Just this. I weep for all of those women in the past who had to sit and needlepoint flowers and keep their hopes and ambitions to themselves while being supportive of their family. All those women who knew that becoming an artist would mean stepping outside the acceptable boundaries. and it takes a very brave person to do that. I am so angry that women were bonsai-ed for so much of history. I hope that women of the future will have the freedom to grow any which way they can. And that means everyone has to do the EL, not just the women.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:16 PM on August 14, 2015 [39 favorites]
My sweetie is a coffee drinker. I drink tea. After we'd been seeing each other a bit, a canister with my favorite tea magically appeared in his kitchen. Only it wasn't magic, it was my sweetie paying attention to my likes and dislikes. Which should not make him extraordinary. But dammit, it feels like he's extraordinary. This cartoon appeared on page 39 of the August 3rd issue of The New Yorker. I'm putting it up on the wall of my hut on Crone Island. I think of it as a metaphor for emotional labor as well as the physical stuff. Also, it makes me laugh my ass off. The expression on the face of the female lion? I wore that expression for years.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:18 PM on August 14, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 5:18 PM on August 14, 2015 [24 favorites]
Another voice here saying that this whole thing changed my life. Things have improved in ways I couldn't previously hope for. While I still find myself showering my partner with praise at every small thing (because what if he stops) I can actually feel like we're starting to grow into a real partnership.
Ultimately, it's kind of beyond words how valuable everyone's voice here was. Is!
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:24 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ultimately, it's kind of beyond words how valuable everyone's voice here was. Is!
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:24 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
SLoG: I always felt sad that women were never well represented in art history, such a loss for humanity when you think about it...
Do you know about the work of Christa Zaat? She's the curator of an excellent Facebook page called Female Artists in History. From the linked interview: "Focusing on artists whose contributions and corpuses are often obscured, Christa’s work is monumentally important to reshaping the canonical art history. Her curation focuses on giving deceased woman artists a voice, illuminating their artwork through visibility on the Internet."
posted by velvet winter at 5:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
Do you know about the work of Christa Zaat? She's the curator of an excellent Facebook page called Female Artists in History. From the linked interview: "Focusing on artists whose contributions and corpuses are often obscured, Christa’s work is monumentally important to reshaping the canonical art history. Her curation focuses on giving deceased woman artists a voice, illuminating their artwork through visibility on the Internet."
posted by velvet winter at 5:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
We need 2.0 ASAP because I don't have enough time in the next few hours to fully process and respond to the life-changing truth in these comments. I'm feeling panicky about losing this because it's been like a lifeline to sanity unexpectedly thrown to me during a very confusing time.
I hear you. While my own situation is less dire, I really think MetaFilter needs some kind of follow-up thread where this wonderful and heartbreaking story-sharing can continue. It is so important! The Crone Island Google group is great, but I'd like to see the conversation continue here in public, too. If anyone does make an "emotional labour 2.0" sort of post, or if there's one I missed (I haven't had time to catch up on the blue for several weeks!), could you please link it here before this thread closes in a few hours?
posted by velvet winter at 5:42 PM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
I hear you. While my own situation is less dire, I really think MetaFilter needs some kind of follow-up thread where this wonderful and heartbreaking story-sharing can continue. It is so important! The Crone Island Google group is great, but I'd like to see the conversation continue here in public, too. If anyone does make an "emotional labour 2.0" sort of post, or if there's one I missed (I haven't had time to catch up on the blue for several weeks!), could you please link it here before this thread closes in a few hours?
posted by velvet winter at 5:42 PM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
Mild derail there: I have for the past few years sought out female writers and artists and musicians and - basically if women did it, I sort them to the top automatically to try first. Part of it is the Ginger-Effect that a woman in a male-dominated field is probably technically better, and then it's also that if I don't look actively for women's voices, they vanish so fast. They're not the norm or the majority in mass media or daily life, so I have to actively seek them out to get gender parity. That's labor of a sort that POC and men don't have to do at all. ( thinking now of the specific to my kids books I have curated for them)
Now to read again a book on divorce to the toddler because I know it wouldn't occur to her dad that this is something she might need.
Papers are set in motion and I took a half day off work because it was so draining. I had to physically have the toddler with me over custody threats, and may lose my house but I'll be done some day soon.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:44 PM on August 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
Now to read again a book on divorce to the toddler because I know it wouldn't occur to her dad that this is something she might need.
Papers are set in motion and I took a half day off work because it was so draining. I had to physically have the toddler with me over custody threats, and may lose my house but I'll be done some day soon.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:44 PM on August 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
I'd like to point Crone Island's attention to this excellent FPP posted by stoneweaver two days ago, which has considerable overlap in interest and is (as requested upthread) also centered around self-care.
posted by sciatrix at 5:45 PM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 5:45 PM on August 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
My husband and I both forgot our wedding anniversary a few days ago. I just felt like I should tell the thread this. Everyone in this house failed at their emotional labor! If my dad hadn't e-mailed me a happy anniversary, I would have totally forgotten. (So apparently my dad is the only emotional labor achiever in this family.)
I used it as an excuse to buy myself jewelry.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:06 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
I used it as an excuse to buy myself jewelry.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:06 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
There is an already existing thread about Election over in Fanfare, Don Pepino, easter queen, Frowner.
posted by phearlez at 6:20 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 6:20 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
And that is why All of the Great Artists Have Been Men.
When I was in college I was marked down repeatedly on art history essays because I chose to write about portrait painters, both male and female. Not Great Art, you see. Especially those portraits by women. Just little mumsy doodles, I should've realized. I'm still fuming about that, and about how male artists and historians have acted for centuries as gate-keepers to Art, turning away all undesirable like women, and people interested in lighter subjects.
I'm sure it's been linked in this thread already, but after I read Why I Want a Wife, I spent a lot of time in college and after seething about how women never had the time to become great anythings (setting aside the violent resistance to them even entering the game) because of the time they had to spend on husbands, and families, and children and emotional labor.
posted by Squeak Attack at 6:40 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
When I was in college I was marked down repeatedly on art history essays because I chose to write about portrait painters, both male and female. Not Great Art, you see. Especially those portraits by women. Just little mumsy doodles, I should've realized. I'm still fuming about that, and about how male artists and historians have acted for centuries as gate-keepers to Art, turning away all undesirable like women, and people interested in lighter subjects.
I'm sure it's been linked in this thread already, but after I read Why I Want a Wife, I spent a lot of time in college and after seething about how women never had the time to become great anythings (setting aside the violent resistance to them even entering the game) because of the time they had to spend on husbands, and families, and children and emotional labor.
posted by Squeak Attack at 6:40 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
HotToddy and others, this essay by Damon Young changed a lot for me. I think it was linked on the Blue at some point but to excerpt:
"But you know what I don't really trust? What I've never actually trusted with any women I've been with? Her feelings.
If she approaches me pissed about something, my first reaction is "What's wrong?"
My typical second reaction? Before she even gets the opportunity to tell me what's wrong? "She's probably overreacting."
My typical third reaction? After she expresses what's wrong? "Ok. I hear what you're saying, and I'll help. But whatever you're upset about probably really isn't that serious."
I'm both smart and sane, so I don't actually say any of this aloud. But I am often thinking it. Until she convinces me otherwise, I assume that her emotional reaction to a situation is disproportionate to my opinion of what level of emotional reaction the situation calls for. Basically, if she's on eight, I assume the situation is really a six."
I sent it to my husband, and pointedly linked on facebook. I can't do a good goddamn thing to change that interaction, only the man deciding his emotional intuition is worth more than my experience can. So I've taken to, when each of these tiny interactions happens where "it isn't cold" and "you don't need socks on in bed" and "you should have lunch right now and interrupt what you're doing because I'm hungry" and "you shouldn't take it so seriously" and "you need to let it go"are supposed to change my mind, I point out the disrespect and blatant stupidity of assuming you know better. Sure, I have that tendency to forget to eat but I can actually make a decision to wait until I'm finished. I know if I'm cold. That thing should be taken seriously if only for the fact it really fucking hurt me. So I point it out, and as I said in my first post, we're all just gonna do it my way now. Telling me I'm wrong is not the start of the negotiation any longer, it's where the conversation stops, because believe it or not I am a reliable source on my own feelings.
I'm waiting for the thread to close and then I'm going to go through and create my own excerpted version, with a focus on the advice rather than the stories.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:57 PM on August 14, 2015 [41 favorites]
"But you know what I don't really trust? What I've never actually trusted with any women I've been with? Her feelings.
If she approaches me pissed about something, my first reaction is "What's wrong?"
My typical second reaction? Before she even gets the opportunity to tell me what's wrong? "She's probably overreacting."
My typical third reaction? After she expresses what's wrong? "Ok. I hear what you're saying, and I'll help. But whatever you're upset about probably really isn't that serious."
I'm both smart and sane, so I don't actually say any of this aloud. But I am often thinking it. Until she convinces me otherwise, I assume that her emotional reaction to a situation is disproportionate to my opinion of what level of emotional reaction the situation calls for. Basically, if she's on eight, I assume the situation is really a six."
I sent it to my husband, and pointedly linked on facebook. I can't do a good goddamn thing to change that interaction, only the man deciding his emotional intuition is worth more than my experience can. So I've taken to, when each of these tiny interactions happens where "it isn't cold" and "you don't need socks on in bed" and "you should have lunch right now and interrupt what you're doing because I'm hungry" and "you shouldn't take it so seriously" and "you need to let it go"are supposed to change my mind, I point out the disrespect and blatant stupidity of assuming you know better. Sure, I have that tendency to forget to eat but I can actually make a decision to wait until I'm finished. I know if I'm cold. That thing should be taken seriously if only for the fact it really fucking hurt me. So I point it out, and as I said in my first post, we're all just gonna do it my way now. Telling me I'm wrong is not the start of the negotiation any longer, it's where the conversation stops, because believe it or not I am a reliable source on my own feelings.
I'm waiting for the thread to close and then I'm going to go through and create my own excerpted version, with a focus on the advice rather than the stories.
posted by geek anachronism at 7:57 PM on August 14, 2015 [41 favorites]
I feel like I have just shared a great big adventure with you all and I am so glad I was part of it. I can now see what a more authentic me can be like. Thank you, thank you all so much.
posted by Thella at 8:05 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Thella at 8:05 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh $DEITY, that Damon Young essay. I had never read it, but I'm so glad I did. That was my ex in a nutshell--I have a bunch of cautionary tales about him pulling that kind of stunt, including one where he was was willing to believe all the other folks in my grad school group about Awful Professor but not the semester worth of my complaints! And then decided he was open-minded for deciding I was right with confirmation from others--including men.
Even in its waning moments, this thread is a revelation.
posted by immlass at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Even in its waning moments, this thread is a revelation.
posted by immlass at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Just signed up, first post, happy to support paid moderators. I've been lurking here the whole past month, thinking at first I was damned lucky to have a partner who I could ask to read this thread. Lots of stuff in here we both screw up, lots of stuff to discuss. It's led me to buy about $100 worth of flowers for good people and send a birthday card I usually forget to send. There will be more flowers.
Then of course I asked him to read this thread, at least as far as "The Giraffe Flies at Midnight," and it all went to hell. He read a little then stopped. In a blow-up fight he told me he'd gotten as far as "bonsai person" and that's what he felt like. I pointed out the things I'd asked him to stop doing were: rolling his eyes, saying nasty things in a fight, physically restraining me. Things I hadn't asked him to stop doing: basically anything else. Also it turns out this one person who made me feel awful (but he couldn't believe it of her, and didn't believe me) has previously made his friends feel awful as well. So, well, I was wrong about his being open to discussing emotional labor, and we're on life support right now. Taking it a day at a time.
As a response to Secret Life of Gravy, this story, also Francine Prose's "Lives of the Muses," might be of interest?
posted by Tick Tock Tourmaline at 8:19 PM on August 14, 2015 [24 favorites]
Then of course I asked him to read this thread, at least as far as "The Giraffe Flies at Midnight," and it all went to hell. He read a little then stopped. In a blow-up fight he told me he'd gotten as far as "bonsai person" and that's what he felt like. I pointed out the things I'd asked him to stop doing were: rolling his eyes, saying nasty things in a fight, physically restraining me. Things I hadn't asked him to stop doing: basically anything else. Also it turns out this one person who made me feel awful (but he couldn't believe it of her, and didn't believe me) has previously made his friends feel awful as well. So, well, I was wrong about his being open to discussing emotional labor, and we're on life support right now. Taking it a day at a time.
As a response to Secret Life of Gravy, this story, also Francine Prose's "Lives of the Muses," might be of interest?
posted by Tick Tock Tourmaline at 8:19 PM on August 14, 2015 [24 favorites]
"A great explanation of why 'be respectful' especially across unstated power dynamics fails."
Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes they use "respect" to mean "treating someone like an authority"
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say "if you won't respect me I won't respect you" and they mean "if you won't treat me like an authority I won't treat you like a person"
and they think they're being fair but they aren't, and it's not okay.
This sums up what my father used to mean when he would insist that people needed to respect him, and my inner voice always said, "I'll respect you if you'll respect me."
Anyway, great thread, all. This has definitely changed my outlook on a lot of things and explained a lot of other things.
posted by limeonaire at 8:27 PM on August 14, 2015 [15 favorites]
Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes they use "respect" to mean "treating someone like an authority"
and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say "if you won't respect me I won't respect you" and they mean "if you won't treat me like an authority I won't treat you like a person"
and they think they're being fair but they aren't, and it's not okay.
This sums up what my father used to mean when he would insist that people needed to respect him, and my inner voice always said, "I'll respect you if you'll respect me."
Anyway, great thread, all. This has definitely changed my outlook on a lot of things and explained a lot of other things.
posted by limeonaire at 8:27 PM on August 14, 2015 [15 favorites]
Am I alone in disliking the "Why I Want a Wife" essay? I am a wife and a mother and I take care of the kids so my husband can work and something about that essay makes me feel like I'm being objectified or looked at with pity. Not by the writer, but by its readers.
I've heard that about 1970s feminism plenty of times, that it made housewives feel bad about their choices, and I've never felt that way -- except about this one, classic essay.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've heard that about 1970s feminism plenty of times, that it made housewives feel bad about their choices, and I've never felt that way -- except about this one, classic essay.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
One last set of links, because Tick Tock Tourmaline it breaks my fucking heart that you have to justify why your partner shouldn't phsyically restrain you.
I came across this song by Tetrastar the other day, very Still Alive, it's called Skullcrusher Mountain and what do you know, it is a cover of a Jonathan Coulton song. But wow it is so different with a dude singing:
And the monkeypony. I made a thing, you have to perform liking it, regardless of what I did.
But yeah, why can't you just be a little less afraid of me because it hurts my feeeeeeeeelings when you've learned form previous experience with me (and it's so much harder to take advantage of the prepared).
posted by geek anachronism at 8:39 PM on August 14, 2015 [23 favorites]
I came across this song by Tetrastar the other day, very Still Alive, it's called Skullcrusher Mountain and what do you know, it is a cover of a Jonathan Coulton song. But wow it is so different with a dude singing:
"I'm so into youEverytime I listen to it - which is a lot since I am mildly obsessive with my media consumption - I think about all these men I've met who trade SO heavily on male violence done by others to keep the women around them in line. "I'm not like other men" because they haven't hit you yet. If you go out there no-one will put up with your shit the way I do. You're lucky to have someone like me interested in you (btw please soothe me when I wail about how no-one loves me). I've been so kind and nice (and all those other men wouldn't be they'd have hurt you) so where's my reward (since I haven't hurt you) (yet)?
But I'm way too smart for you
Even my henchmen think I'm crazy
I'm not surprised that you agree
If you could find some way to be
A little bit less afraid of me
You'd see the voices that control me from inside my head
Say I shouldn't kill you yet
I made this half-pony, half-monkey monster to please you
But I get the feeling that you don't like it
What's with all the screaming?
You like monkeys, you like ponies
Maybe you don't like monsters so much
Maybe I used too many monkeys
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
...
You know it isn't easy living here on Skullcrusher Mountain
Maybe you could cut me just a little slack
Would it kill you to be civil?
I've been patient, I've been gracious
And this mountain is covered with wolves
Hear them howling, my hungry children
Maybe you should stay and have another drink and think about me and you"
And the monkeypony. I made a thing, you have to perform liking it, regardless of what I did.
But yeah, why can't you just be a little less afraid of me because it hurts my feeeeeeeeelings when you've learned form previous experience with me (and it's so much harder to take advantage of the prepared).
posted by geek anachronism at 8:39 PM on August 14, 2015 [23 favorites]
...I spent a lot of time in college and after seething about how women never had the time to become great anythings (setting aside the violent resistance to them even entering the game) because of the time they had to spend on husbands, and families, and children and emotional labor.
That has always made me angry too. Still does. I mean, of course I know some women manage it despite the odds being stacked against them, but I can't help but feel dismayed at all the wonderful art, music, etc., etc., that we could have, but collectively miss out on, because women carry far more than their fair share of the unpaid emotional labour workload even when they're partnered with very progressive, feminist men. (And also because of our soul-killing work culture in which most artists have to have a day job to pay the bills. See: The Next Hemingway is Flipping Burgers.)
I knew when I was very young that I wanted to be a writer, and at some level my budding-feminist self sensed that I wouldn't be free to do this at the level I wanted if I had kids. So, thanks to birth control, I didn't. (Well, there were many reasons I never became a parent, first and foremost among them being the fact that I never had any desire to. But still.)
Nonetheless, the enormous emotional labour burden imposed upon me by two doomed marriages and numerous exhausting service jobs was still enough to curtail my writing output substantially. And even though I'm now free of the marital emotional labour, I still live in a culture that expects me to take on more than my fair share in all kinds of situations. But thanks to this thread I am now a conscientious objector to the unpaid emotional labour paradigm, and I intend to resist as much as possible. My future writing depends upon it.
Thank you, all of you who contributed to this thread, for helping to give me the strength to resist. I love MetaFilter. Crone Island forever.
posted by velvet winter at 8:40 PM on August 14, 2015 [18 favorites]
That has always made me angry too. Still does. I mean, of course I know some women manage it despite the odds being stacked against them, but I can't help but feel dismayed at all the wonderful art, music, etc., etc., that we could have, but collectively miss out on, because women carry far more than their fair share of the unpaid emotional labour workload even when they're partnered with very progressive, feminist men. (And also because of our soul-killing work culture in which most artists have to have a day job to pay the bills. See: The Next Hemingway is Flipping Burgers.)
I knew when I was very young that I wanted to be a writer, and at some level my budding-feminist self sensed that I wouldn't be free to do this at the level I wanted if I had kids. So, thanks to birth control, I didn't. (Well, there were many reasons I never became a parent, first and foremost among them being the fact that I never had any desire to. But still.)
Nonetheless, the enormous emotional labour burden imposed upon me by two doomed marriages and numerous exhausting service jobs was still enough to curtail my writing output substantially. And even though I'm now free of the marital emotional labour, I still live in a culture that expects me to take on more than my fair share in all kinds of situations. But thanks to this thread I am now a conscientious objector to the unpaid emotional labour paradigm, and I intend to resist as much as possible. My future writing depends upon it.
Thank you, all of you who contributed to this thread, for helping to give me the strength to resist. I love MetaFilter. Crone Island forever.
posted by velvet winter at 8:40 PM on August 14, 2015 [18 favorites]
I pointed out the things I'd asked him to stop doing were: rolling his eyes, saying nasty things in a fight, physically restraining me.
Not doing those things should just be the normal baseline expectation in a relationship -- and crossing those boundaries should hold some serious weight. I'm sorry you are dealing with this, and wish you all the luck and happiness.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:47 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
Not doing those things should just be the normal baseline expectation in a relationship -- and crossing those boundaries should hold some serious weight. I'm sorry you are dealing with this, and wish you all the luck and happiness.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:47 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
So would it be okay to just say that stoneweaver's self-care thread is the de facto 2.0? Can we continue talking there for now? It does have considerable overlap. I just want us to be able to find one another.
posted by HotToddy at 8:49 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 8:49 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'll clarify (and thanks for the kindness): he stopped doing those things a while ago, or I wouldn't still be here. Present problem is that "hey could you read this Metafilter thread, it's important" got "you are making me a bonsai person! making me read this thread is making me a bonsai person" in response. Meh.
posted by Tick Tock Tourmaline at 8:51 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Tick Tock Tourmaline at 8:51 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does anyone else wonder whether this might go a long way toward explaining why women end marriages twice as often as men do? That always puzzled me, because it only stood to reason that women and men would be equally unhappy. Emotional labor might be the unseen (to men) factor.
posted by wnissen at 8:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by wnissen at 8:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
it's probably both the cumulative build up of women doing all the emotional labor- and i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that when divorces were more or less a joint decision, women tended to be the one that actually filed the paperwork. i've seen some suggestion that it's because men wanted the women to "save face" but i pretty much always assumed it was because the women are of course the ones who do the paperwork and get it where it needs to go.
posted by nadawi at 9:30 PM on August 14, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:30 PM on August 14, 2015 [25 favorites]
I've always read (and it seems to hold true in my experience) that the typical pattern is the wife is often the one initiating the divorce and feels that for years she was saying there's a problem, there's a problem; meanwhile the husband is "blindsided" by the request for divorce and suddenly wants to work on the marriage, but the wife is totally done. Somewhere upthread someone was pointing out the dynamic of male partners not actually hearing you until it affects them, and it seems to me this is ultimate example.
posted by HotToddy at 9:40 PM on August 14, 2015 [49 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 9:40 PM on August 14, 2015 [49 favorites]
This outstanding thread has set a standard for what the internet could be. Like Kate Bush’s “Cloudbusting” will always be an example of what music videos could have been.
I’ve been overwhelmed so many times reading your stories, your courage, and by seeing myself again and again.
I didn’t even see it coming.
I was raised in a house where women were respected. When we were kids we joked that pronouns were dirty words because when we’d complain to Dad, “She wouldn’t let me do this”, or “She says I can’t have that, his consistent response was “That’s no she, that is your Mother.” Not a bad standard to set for us four girls. And while my Mom would never call herself a feminist, she was clear that my Dad worked at the office and her work at home made his work possible and when he got paid it was their paycheck. We thought that was just how it is.
In my teens I knew I wanted to be a Mom but didn’t have a desire to marry and that’s how it played out, though not entirely by choice. I live for a few years with a guy I was crazy about, I got pregnant, he left. I went back & forth being bitter he’d been such a dick and knowing we were better off without him.
I learned it’s hard to be the Mom and the Dad. And still be yourself. And still act on all the things you care about in your community. Hard but not impossible. Hard but damned rewarding.
When Awesome Offspring went off to college I was still relatively young and alone for the first time in at least 18 years. I slowly started dating and ended up with a guy who was not yet recovered from his first marriage. (Danger! Danger!) I took great care of him. I’m great at anticipating needs (I’m often accused of being an over-thinker) and enjoyed taking care of him in many ways. It felt great.
But I wanted it to be mutual and for a while it seemed like it was. I came to want the generous, care-taking husband he described from his first marriage. I decided that he was the guy I would go all-in with. And for the first time in my life, understood what that meant in a partnering relationship, which made me want it more. Eventually we got married and that delirious (deluded) state of marital bliss lasted . . . 6 weeks. Maybe 8.
He had a lot of anger, some of it from being abused as a kid, plenty left over from the first marriage. I soon felt that I was being punished for someone else’s actions. (Shit. I’m still making excuses for him. I wasn’t being punished for her actions, I was being punished by his.)
So much yelling (him) and crying (me). Not proud about that, but it’s true.
He went through a lot: a work injury. Some recovery time - then loss of the job. He fought with people everywhere. Work, church, home, projects, art groups. More loss of work. Depression. Withdrawal.
I went through a lot too: a job I hated but which was our major source of income & benefits. A couple of times on medication that made my already fat body even bigger, making my physical problems (especially arthritis) worse. My Dad died. I got depressed too. And he couldn’t manage the EL required to help me.
Like many of you I tried in increasingly desperate ways to explain. If he didn’t understand when I said that, maybe he’ll get it if I say it this way . . . Unlike other men I’ve known who couldn’t manage EL, he was amazingly generous in bed. I often said, “If you could be that thoughtful, attention-paying anticipatory guy-you-are-in-bed when we are not in bed - that would be perfect.” But there was no rising to that occasion. It was like he had a special filter that could take the most innocuous statement and hear it as a put-down. His feelings were the only ones that mattered.
When geek anachronism said this the other day:
“The catch-22 of being upset enough sucks. I've had to explain over and over that I don't like the way that things have to reach breaking point, where I'm crying uncontrollably and forgetting to eat in order for my needs to be taken seriously, since asking and voicing my concerns isn't enough” lots of things came flooding back.
If I felt bad about something and said so, he’d scream at me about how bad he felt about what I had said. My feelings were invisible. Or he would say “Why did you have to say that? We were having such a good time.” He seemed truly oblivious to the fact that I had not been having a good time.
I finally had to stop it. We’ve been divorced for 2 ½ years now. One thing that pierced me over and over as I read this thread the past few weeks is that sometimes I still miss him. (There were some good times too, I just haven’t told you about them. But nowhere near enough love to balance the anger and meanness.)
I’ve been letting this missing him really get me down, not understanding it, trying to figure it out, realizing I am still not over the whole deal, because I never thought I would let someone treat me so badly for so long.
Reading so many stories by so many wonderful, articulate, also not-perfect women helped me remember where I was (much healthier) when that relationship began.
Here’s what made him so special: I picked him. I decided to go all in with him. He didn’t/doesn’t have any magical powers that overwhelm my ability to make decisions.
I picked him. And when I couldn’t stand his meanness anymore, I unpicked him. I don’t miss him – I miss having someone I picked. Maybe I’ll pick someone else again, maybe not.
It means a lot to me to remember that. Maybe it will mean something to some of you.
A thousand thank-yous for all of the EL that’s gone into this thread. I’ve was thrilled a few weeks ago to see that some folks were the discovering the awesomeness of Marge Piercy. If you haven’t yet, check out these poems by her:
For Strong Women
Song of the Fucked Duck
What’s That Smell in the Kitchen?
Right to Life
You all have made me think and feel and write so much. And those are my favorite things.
posted by endwhiteness at 9:43 PM on August 14, 2015 [51 favorites]
I’ve been overwhelmed so many times reading your stories, your courage, and by seeing myself again and again.
I didn’t even see it coming.
I was raised in a house where women were respected. When we were kids we joked that pronouns were dirty words because when we’d complain to Dad, “She wouldn’t let me do this”, or “She says I can’t have that, his consistent response was “That’s no she, that is your Mother.” Not a bad standard to set for us four girls. And while my Mom would never call herself a feminist, she was clear that my Dad worked at the office and her work at home made his work possible and when he got paid it was their paycheck. We thought that was just how it is.
In my teens I knew I wanted to be a Mom but didn’t have a desire to marry and that’s how it played out, though not entirely by choice. I live for a few years with a guy I was crazy about, I got pregnant, he left. I went back & forth being bitter he’d been such a dick and knowing we were better off without him.
I learned it’s hard to be the Mom and the Dad. And still be yourself. And still act on all the things you care about in your community. Hard but not impossible. Hard but damned rewarding.
When Awesome Offspring went off to college I was still relatively young and alone for the first time in at least 18 years. I slowly started dating and ended up with a guy who was not yet recovered from his first marriage. (Danger! Danger!) I took great care of him. I’m great at anticipating needs (I’m often accused of being an over-thinker) and enjoyed taking care of him in many ways. It felt great.
But I wanted it to be mutual and for a while it seemed like it was. I came to want the generous, care-taking husband he described from his first marriage. I decided that he was the guy I would go all-in with. And for the first time in my life, understood what that meant in a partnering relationship, which made me want it more. Eventually we got married and that delirious (deluded) state of marital bliss lasted . . . 6 weeks. Maybe 8.
He had a lot of anger, some of it from being abused as a kid, plenty left over from the first marriage. I soon felt that I was being punished for someone else’s actions. (Shit. I’m still making excuses for him. I wasn’t being punished for her actions, I was being punished by his.)
So much yelling (him) and crying (me). Not proud about that, but it’s true.
He went through a lot: a work injury. Some recovery time - then loss of the job. He fought with people everywhere. Work, church, home, projects, art groups. More loss of work. Depression. Withdrawal.
I went through a lot too: a job I hated but which was our major source of income & benefits. A couple of times on medication that made my already fat body even bigger, making my physical problems (especially arthritis) worse. My Dad died. I got depressed too. And he couldn’t manage the EL required to help me.
Like many of you I tried in increasingly desperate ways to explain. If he didn’t understand when I said that, maybe he’ll get it if I say it this way . . . Unlike other men I’ve known who couldn’t manage EL, he was amazingly generous in bed. I often said, “If you could be that thoughtful, attention-paying anticipatory guy-you-are-in-bed when we are not in bed - that would be perfect.” But there was no rising to that occasion. It was like he had a special filter that could take the most innocuous statement and hear it as a put-down. His feelings were the only ones that mattered.
When geek anachronism said this the other day:
“The catch-22 of being upset enough sucks. I've had to explain over and over that I don't like the way that things have to reach breaking point, where I'm crying uncontrollably and forgetting to eat in order for my needs to be taken seriously, since asking and voicing my concerns isn't enough” lots of things came flooding back.
If I felt bad about something and said so, he’d scream at me about how bad he felt about what I had said. My feelings were invisible. Or he would say “Why did you have to say that? We were having such a good time.” He seemed truly oblivious to the fact that I had not been having a good time.
I finally had to stop it. We’ve been divorced for 2 ½ years now. One thing that pierced me over and over as I read this thread the past few weeks is that sometimes I still miss him. (There were some good times too, I just haven’t told you about them. But nowhere near enough love to balance the anger and meanness.)
I’ve been letting this missing him really get me down, not understanding it, trying to figure it out, realizing I am still not over the whole deal, because I never thought I would let someone treat me so badly for so long.
Reading so many stories by so many wonderful, articulate, also not-perfect women helped me remember where I was (much healthier) when that relationship began.
Here’s what made him so special: I picked him. I decided to go all in with him. He didn’t/doesn’t have any magical powers that overwhelm my ability to make decisions.
I picked him. And when I couldn’t stand his meanness anymore, I unpicked him. I don’t miss him – I miss having someone I picked. Maybe I’ll pick someone else again, maybe not.
It means a lot to me to remember that. Maybe it will mean something to some of you.
A thousand thank-yous for all of the EL that’s gone into this thread. I’ve was thrilled a few weeks ago to see that some folks were the discovering the awesomeness of Marge Piercy. If you haven’t yet, check out these poems by her:
For Strong Women
Song of the Fucked Duck
What’s That Smell in the Kitchen?
Right to Life
You all have made me think and feel and write so much. And those are my favorite things.
posted by endwhiteness at 9:43 PM on August 14, 2015 [51 favorites]
I've always loved Marge Piercy and been puzzled why she's not more popular among people who like to read poetry (I used to do a lot of poetry writing and workshopping in college). Well, I'm pretty sure it's the same reason a lot of dudes who know better really want you to read Bukowski-- male supremacy. (There have been other contemporary female poets that I have ADORED-- the kind who went to the Iowa Writers Workshop and win prestigious young poet awards and write about being female and existentially spooked and anxious and everything we reward young male poets for writing-- but all my male poet friends just seem totally baffled. It's annoying.)
She just has this incredibly spot on, rich way of addressing the particular experience and frustration of being female. Her style is not my usual thing, but I still love her work, and I think if you're a woman you never don't know what she's talking about. I think despite my aesthetic preferences I've always been so starved for women's voices and experience that I would read this thread if it were translated into the world's driest legalese.
posted by easter queen at 9:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
She just has this incredibly spot on, rich way of addressing the particular experience and frustration of being female. Her style is not my usual thing, but I still love her work, and I think if you're a woman you never don't know what she's talking about. I think despite my aesthetic preferences I've always been so starved for women's voices and experience that I would read this thread if it were translated into the world's driest legalese.
posted by easter queen at 9:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
My ex would not file paperwork. Or go to a lawyer or a mediator. For a decade, he wouldn't go to couples' counselling until I said I had gone to a lawyer. At every stage, I had to raise the stakes for him to agree to the level below, but that is exhausting.
He's now accusing me of being controlling. A therapist asked him point blank would you be doing these basic activities she asks you to do with your kids if she wasn't arranging and scheduling them?
Pause. "Eventually."
An ignored box can be an amusing twitter feed. A weeping toddler or a silent miserable teenager isn't as funny.
There's a mailing list from the Crone Island group that's even smaller for mefites going through EL-divorce/relationship stuff. Memail me if you're interested.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [21 favorites]
He's now accusing me of being controlling. A therapist asked him point blank would you be doing these basic activities she asks you to do with your kids if she wasn't arranging and scheduling them?
Pause. "Eventually."
An ignored box can be an amusing twitter feed. A weeping toddler or a silent miserable teenager isn't as funny.
There's a mailing list from the Crone Island group that's even smaller for mefites going through EL-divorce/relationship stuff. Memail me if you're interested.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:14 PM on August 14, 2015 [21 favorites]
...would it be okay to just say that stoneweaver's self-care thread is the de facto 2.0? Can we continue talking there for now?
I, for one, will gladly keep following that thread. It does seem like a kind of logical progression from this one, and might lend itself to more story-telling of the sort we've seen here.
In my files I have a half-finished book manuscript called On The Leisure Track. One of the things that inspired the title was my observation that almost all the books and websites I could find about philosophy of leisure were written by men. I wanted to make a case for more genuine leisure for everyone, rather than just some kind of watered-down "work-life balance," and I knew that in order to do that properly, I'd need to apply a feminist analysis of unpaid emotional labour.
posted by velvet winter at 10:33 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
I, for one, will gladly keep following that thread. It does seem like a kind of logical progression from this one, and might lend itself to more story-telling of the sort we've seen here.
In my files I have a half-finished book manuscript called On The Leisure Track. One of the things that inspired the title was my observation that almost all the books and websites I could find about philosophy of leisure were written by men. I wanted to make a case for more genuine leisure for everyone, rather than just some kind of watered-down "work-life balance," and I knew that in order to do that properly, I'd need to apply a feminist analysis of unpaid emotional labour.
posted by velvet winter at 10:33 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Before this cuts off I want to say thank you to everyone who shared, and to the moderators for keeping everything civilized. I will see you all in the Crone Island group and elsewhere on MeFi. <3
posted by orchidfox at 10:37 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by orchidfox at 10:37 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thank you all for changing my life.
posted by sallybrown at 10:39 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 10:39 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
Same here, wholeheartedly (and I think that goes for other dudes still quietly following along and learning)
posted by naju at 10:46 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by naju at 10:46 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
I will update the book PDF one more time after the thread closes. (Let me know if you have any issues in the meta thread.) Big thanks to hades for figuring out the issue with the contributor index.
https://app.box.com/mefi-UEL-CroneIsland-bookPDF
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
https://app.box.com/mefi-UEL-CroneIsland-bookPDF
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
Crones! Love & thanks to all and every.
This has truly been The Mother of All Threads.
I will henceforth be loading the Tedious Cheese of The Patriarchy onto my catapult and shooting it straight into the sun.
posted by sic friat crustulum at 11:56 PM on August 14, 2015 [15 favorites]
This has truly been The Mother of All Threads.
I will henceforth be loading the Tedious Cheese of The Patriarchy onto my catapult and shooting it straight into the sun.
posted by sic friat crustulum at 11:56 PM on August 14, 2015 [15 favorites]
I will henceforth be loading the Tedious Cheese of The Patriarchy onto my catapult and shooting it straight into the sun.
Amen, sister.
I also need to thank all the brave, beautiful, brilliant crones who've participated in this thread.
I've spent more than 3/4 of my life viewing myself as profoundly defective. For decades, I've dedicated enormous amounts of energy to identifying and then either punishing myself for or frantically trying to fix a thousand different ostensible failings.
But because of this thread, I have, for the first time, begun to allow myself to consider the possibility that nothing was wrong with me when I was a kid, and nothing is fucking wrong now-- except for a perfectly acceptable compliment of human foibles, and a stout dose of (clinically diagnosed) PTSD that I have because of shit that was not my fault.
And once I began to entertain possibility that I might not suck on the level of soul and bone, I finally started to make real progress toward getting the PTSD under control.
(Funny how that works, huh?)
In sum: You all have helped me more than words can ever say. My debt to you is immeasurable.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 12:59 AM on August 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
Amen, sister.
I also need to thank all the brave, beautiful, brilliant crones who've participated in this thread.
I've spent more than 3/4 of my life viewing myself as profoundly defective. For decades, I've dedicated enormous amounts of energy to identifying and then either punishing myself for or frantically trying to fix a thousand different ostensible failings.
But because of this thread, I have, for the first time, begun to allow myself to consider the possibility that nothing was wrong with me when I was a kid, and nothing is fucking wrong now-- except for a perfectly acceptable compliment of human foibles, and a stout dose of (clinically diagnosed) PTSD that I have because of shit that was not my fault.
And once I began to entertain possibility that I might not suck on the level of soul and bone, I finally started to make real progress toward getting the PTSD under control.
(Funny how that works, huh?)
In sum: You all have helped me more than words can ever say. My debt to you is immeasurable.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 12:59 AM on August 15, 2015 [36 favorites]
Just checking in for the last time to say goodbye to this thread which I have read every day, and whose closing I'm grieving a little already although I'll hopefully join the Google group. Thank you to every single person who filled it full of honesty and bravery, and who made me gasp in horror or shake my head or choke up or laugh. I wish I could track you all down and offer you hugs. Like everyone else I feel the shift in my consciousness has been huge and I like to think that here we are, all these women heading into the future with a new level of awareness that we'll pass on to daughters and friends and mothers and sisters and maybe we'll change the world a little. Peace to you all.
posted by billiebee at 2:07 AM on August 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 2:07 AM on August 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has posted, this has been an amazing thread. Obviously I'm not the most important audience, but I've still gained from it and hopefully become a better and more aware person. Having the language of emotional labour helps make a lot of things clear. So thanks once again. Good luck for the island.
posted by Pink Frost at 2:45 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Pink Frost at 2:45 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Another check-in to say a fond farewell to this wonderful thread. It is consciousness-raising at its finest. I'm happy to see all the new MeFi members who joined thanks to this thread. And it's changed lives and made so many of us think about what goes on with us day-to-day.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:27 AM on August 15, 2015
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:27 AM on August 15, 2015
Another one whose life was changed by this thread. I wanted to write more, but haven't found the time and wanted to get in a thank you to everyone before the thread closed forever. Most of all, thank you for sparing me for spending the rest of my life wondering what "the right way" to ask for things would have been to keep my marriage intact (as I've spent the last few years asking myself), and thank you for giving me the tools and the language to recognize emotional labor going forward. My relationships and my own life are already immeasurably better as a result.
posted by tiger tiger at 4:30 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by tiger tiger at 4:30 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, endwhiteness -- if you can, please consider picking up a copy of Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That?, because your ex is in there. He is described to a T. Down to being amazingly thoughtful and generous in bed and absolutely nowhere else -- with an outline of his motivations for it. I'm so sorry.
(You're all fantastic. Thank you, thank you, thank you.)
posted by kaberett at 4:33 AM on August 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
(You're all fantastic. Thank you, thank you, thank you.)
posted by kaberett at 4:33 AM on August 15, 2015 [8 favorites]
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. It's been grand.
posted by kjs4 at 7:17 AM on August 15, 2015
posted by kjs4 at 7:17 AM on August 15, 2015
Thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread. It has meant so much to me.
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 7:20 AM on August 15, 2015
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 7:20 AM on August 15, 2015
I haven't commented because everyone else has described my experience as well as I could have. But yes, my life has been changed because of this thread.
Thank you, everyone, for your stories and inspiration. I have printed out this thread up to page 738 (and will print out the rest once the final pdf has been uploaded) and will go through and highlight the lessons I need to remember and the most inspiring of the posts/stories (which I suspect will result in a mass of highlighter throughout).
Thanks too to our awesome mods. I can't say enough good things about you in general, but especially for keeping this thread on track and civil.
posted by purplesludge at 8:15 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thank you, everyone, for your stories and inspiration. I have printed out this thread up to page 738 (and will print out the rest once the final pdf has been uploaded) and will go through and highlight the lessons I need to remember and the most inspiring of the posts/stories (which I suspect will result in a mass of highlighter throughout).
Thanks too to our awesome mods. I can't say enough good things about you in general, but especially for keeping this thread on track and civil.
posted by purplesludge at 8:15 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
This has been wonderful. I'm going to miss checking for more comments each day.
posted by ocherdraco at 8:38 AM on August 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ocherdraco at 8:38 AM on August 15, 2015 [4 favorites]
Thank you, all. ❤️
posted by heatherann at 8:42 AM on August 15, 2015
posted by heatherann at 8:42 AM on August 15, 2015
A very long time ago, I was at a summer camp in Michigan. I worked there for the first two months, then attended the third session. That time at camp was the first time in my life, having grown up in a not-very-healthy home, that I felt as if I had worth, that I had agency, that I could make choices for myself, and that making mistakes was okay.
When it closed, and I had to leave, knowing I'd likely never see the friends I'd worked and lived with again?
That's what this thread closing reminds me of. (Thank goodness for the C. I. group!)
Thank you to you all!
posted by ElaineMc at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
When it closed, and I had to leave, knowing I'd likely never see the friends I'd worked and lived with again?
That's what this thread closing reminds me of. (Thank goodness for the C. I. group!)
Thank you to you all!
posted by ElaineMc at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Another lurker here to say thank you all. I am one of those women who wanders with a fork. I certainly noticed when uncompensated emotional labor was expected of me - and usually resented it. But I didn't have a name for it, just GRAR.
So all the stories in this thread, and all the new vocabulary, have been amazing. Probably the biggest change for me: noticing other people's emotional labor, recognizing what it is, and trying to make a point of appreciating it.
posted by backstitch at 9:21 AM on August 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
So all the stories in this thread, and all the new vocabulary, have been amazing. Probably the biggest change for me: noticing other people's emotional labor, recognizing what it is, and trying to make a point of appreciating it.
posted by backstitch at 9:21 AM on August 15, 2015 [14 favorites]
Nth lurker coming in before the thread closes. I've read every single post. Thank you all. I love every single one of you. Crone Island Forever!
posted by mon-ma-tron at 9:35 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mon-ma-tron at 9:35 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
For people who don't want to join the google group for whatever reason but may want to follow updates for various offshoots (or better homes than Google Groups) or news or projects or whatever, there's a blog at https://croneisland.wordpress.com/ to follow or let everyone know if you've got something you want to share.
I'll put that and also anything really newsworthy in my profile as well.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2015 [20 favorites]
I'll put that and also anything really newsworthy in my profile as well.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:09 AM on August 15, 2015 [20 favorites]
Oh! Still time! Read this:
Inside Amazon: Wrestling Big Ideas in a Bruising Workplace
I've seen all of the types of things described before in other companies—women taking time to do emotional labor or domestic labor for their families and being forced out at work—but Amazon seems to have mastered it, as they do. This is the dystopian future for women who work for tech companies. I'm thinking about these problems and thinking about how we should address them, because I know this is not going to be a way of life for only Amazon employees for long. Speaking of which...
Amazon is named after the river (for its volume, apparently), not the women of myth, but I find myself mulling the mental contortions and the fierce, unencumbered demeanor it demands of its women employees and I just wonder about that how that other meaning of Amazon relates.
posted by limeonaire at 10:10 AM on August 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
Inside Amazon: Wrestling Big Ideas in a Bruising Workplace
I've seen all of the types of things described before in other companies—women taking time to do emotional labor or domestic labor for their families and being forced out at work—but Amazon seems to have mastered it, as they do. This is the dystopian future for women who work for tech companies. I'm thinking about these problems and thinking about how we should address them, because I know this is not going to be a way of life for only Amazon employees for long. Speaking of which...
Amazon is named after the river (for its volume, apparently), not the women of myth, but I find myself mulling the mental contortions and the fierce, unencumbered demeanor it demands of its women employees and I just wonder about that how that other meaning of Amazon relates.
posted by limeonaire at 10:10 AM on August 15, 2015 [7 favorites]
Me, too! I've read every comment, but didn't feel that I had anything to add, really. But I want to thank everyone who did contribute.
posted by DebetEsse at 10:18 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by DebetEsse at 10:18 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm a last minute lurker, too, here to say I've followed this thread since the start and have read every comment. Just want to thank everyone who contributed; some of the stories were easy to identify with.
It has been eyeopening to think about my past and present relationships, especially with the men in my life - my spouse, my father and brother, my male friends, colleagues, bosses - in terms of emotional labour. (Basically, I've been looking back yelling HEY THAT'S NOT FAIR in my mind a lot.)
My husband is ok wrt domestic work (which is not my own forte either) and does a lot of organizing and planning, so not many complaints there. But... I'm the one gauging everyone's mood, detecting and defusing budding conflicts, reading up on child rearing methods and family dynamics, and waiting for the right moment to bring up the right topic in the right way so that everyone feels heard, respected and loved. I'm the one paying continuous conscious attention to who's feeling what, who needs support, who needs cheering up. Also: who's eaten what and when, who needs a break, what's too much to expect from a 12 year old, how to manage outbursts of disappointment and stress, etc, ad infinitum. Honestly? I feel like the emotional sherpa of the family. It gets exhausting sometimes. (BTW, if you've seen the film Inside Out, there's this dinner table scene that's very much us. My husband laughed at it a lot; I think I groaned.)
And yeah, that's how it's generally been in all my relationships with men. E.g. with my dad, who may be on the spectrum; I'm an expert on how to make him comfortable within his very limited range of interactions.
I have also become very aware of how my kids (two preteen girls) perform EL. I'm still processing that part, and I think I will be for many years. What do I actually want them to learn (from me, by example)? How will I approach all this with them? Wow, I just realized that this is yet another form of EL, isn't it!
I will be sad to see this thread close. See you on the Island!
posted by sively at 10:20 AM on August 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
It has been eyeopening to think about my past and present relationships, especially with the men in my life - my spouse, my father and brother, my male friends, colleagues, bosses - in terms of emotional labour. (Basically, I've been looking back yelling HEY THAT'S NOT FAIR in my mind a lot.)
My husband is ok wrt domestic work (which is not my own forte either) and does a lot of organizing and planning, so not many complaints there. But... I'm the one gauging everyone's mood, detecting and defusing budding conflicts, reading up on child rearing methods and family dynamics, and waiting for the right moment to bring up the right topic in the right way so that everyone feels heard, respected and loved. I'm the one paying continuous conscious attention to who's feeling what, who needs support, who needs cheering up. Also: who's eaten what and when, who needs a break, what's too much to expect from a 12 year old, how to manage outbursts of disappointment and stress, etc, ad infinitum. Honestly? I feel like the emotional sherpa of the family. It gets exhausting sometimes. (BTW, if you've seen the film Inside Out, there's this dinner table scene that's very much us. My husband laughed at it a lot; I think I groaned.)
And yeah, that's how it's generally been in all my relationships with men. E.g. with my dad, who may be on the spectrum; I'm an expert on how to make him comfortable within his very limited range of interactions.
I have also become very aware of how my kids (two preteen girls) perform EL. I'm still processing that part, and I think I will be for many years. What do I actually want them to learn (from me, by example)? How will I approach all this with them? Wow, I just realized that this is yet another form of EL, isn't it!
I will be sad to see this thread close. See you on the Island!
posted by sively at 10:20 AM on August 15, 2015 [16 favorites]
I'm yet another lurker saying thanks. This has been a profoundly insightful and eye-opening thread.
posted by homunculus at 10:37 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 10:37 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Still open? Then let me add my thanks and virtual hugs. I've learned so much from this remarkable thread, and I am already seeing results. Now, to set sail to Crone Island...
posted by GrammarMoses at 11:14 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by GrammarMoses at 11:14 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yesterday, a coworker brought a box of cookies in for everyone. I thanked her for it and she said, "Oh, it's nothing. I just knew it was the end of a long week for a bunch of people. But it's nothing, really." And I said, "No. It's sweet. And it's appreciated."
She seemed to feel a bit awkward with that response, but she let me thank her for it. It can be hard not to brush this work off as "nothing". It's not nothing.
Thank you for all the cookies, everyone. All of your stories have helped.
posted by heatherann at 11:26 AM on August 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
She seemed to feel a bit awkward with that response, but she let me thank her for it. It can be hard not to brush this work off as "nothing". It's not nothing.
Thank you for all the cookies, everyone. All of your stories have helped.
posted by heatherann at 11:26 AM on August 15, 2015 [29 favorites]
I too would like to thank everyone for this excellent thread. It's made me rethink my annoyance with certain women friends who don't bother to sugar-coat their words, because why should they have to? It's also made me feel a hell of a lot better about being a long-term bachelor.
I am historically bad at emotional labour, especially if there's a burden of expectation. I fail at thank-you notes, holiday cards, even answering emails. I cannot organise my own butt in a barrel. In states of stress I tend to hide from the world as much as I can get away with.
But recently I heard that a guy I knew-- younger than me-- killed himself, and like all of his friends I'm asking: Was there anything I could have done? I scroll back through my Facebook page and see comments from him that I didn't reply to. Maybe a word or two would have made him feel happier in that moment, more valued, more connected to the world. (I know it probably wouldn't have helped; others closer to him did maintain that connection, and he still died from the inadequately treated illness that took his extraordinary mind and twisted it back on itself.)
I guess my takeaway from this thread is that ideally one would
-- Identify the emotional labour that is necessary (as opposed to simply expected) and reserve your energy for that
-- Do what you can to ensure that that labour is shared out fairly between those whose responsibility it is (partners; siblings; colleagues; etc. Ensuring the fair distribution of emotional labour is, obviously, also emotional labour and I'm not sure what to do about that)
-- If the emotional labour is disproportionally assigned, it should be OK to have conversations about it and to change it. If there's one thing this thread has shown, it's that people are capable of learning and rethinking. Obviously speaking up in the workplace can be more difficult, but dammit, it should be OK to have those conversations, and I will not rest until reality is closer to that ideal.
This isn't very well worded and I'm sorry. But thank you. Thank you all.
posted by Pallas Athena at 1:44 PM on August 15, 2015 [40 favorites]
I am historically bad at emotional labour, especially if there's a burden of expectation. I fail at thank-you notes, holiday cards, even answering emails. I cannot organise my own butt in a barrel. In states of stress I tend to hide from the world as much as I can get away with.
But recently I heard that a guy I knew-- younger than me-- killed himself, and like all of his friends I'm asking: Was there anything I could have done? I scroll back through my Facebook page and see comments from him that I didn't reply to. Maybe a word or two would have made him feel happier in that moment, more valued, more connected to the world. (I know it probably wouldn't have helped; others closer to him did maintain that connection, and he still died from the inadequately treated illness that took his extraordinary mind and twisted it back on itself.)
I guess my takeaway from this thread is that ideally one would
-- Identify the emotional labour that is necessary (as opposed to simply expected) and reserve your energy for that
-- Do what you can to ensure that that labour is shared out fairly between those whose responsibility it is (partners; siblings; colleagues; etc. Ensuring the fair distribution of emotional labour is, obviously, also emotional labour and I'm not sure what to do about that)
-- If the emotional labour is disproportionally assigned, it should be OK to have conversations about it and to change it. If there's one thing this thread has shown, it's that people are capable of learning and rethinking. Obviously speaking up in the workplace can be more difficult, but dammit, it should be OK to have those conversations, and I will not rest until reality is closer to that ideal.
This isn't very well worded and I'm sorry. But thank you. Thank you all.
posted by Pallas Athena at 1:44 PM on August 15, 2015 [40 favorites]
Oh this past month has been so hard. Not because of this thread, but kind of around this thread. Some of the people that I asked to read this thread got angry when I did. Some of the people responded very well. None of them finished it, or kept up, or even tried to keep up. I have read every single comment.
I now have information and need to use it to make, well, informed choices. There's definitely a part of me that wishes that I hadn't learned so much about the people I thought were so close to me. And yet, I'm so glad that I know. One of the big EL tasks as a woman is "how to protect yourself without appearing to be paranoid or crazy or man-hating harpy."
It's a very fine line and definitely a catch-22 because if you don't tell guys that you're concerned about these things, how are they supposed to know not to do them? Yet, if you do express concerns, then it's all why are you assuming that all men are terrible? You know I'm not like other guys, right?
One person I read the original article to (because I suspected that waiting for him to read it by himself would drive me up a wall) responded by saying "I don't want to be friends with a person like that. You give what you get, and if you're not getting what you need, go find better friends."
I laughed and laughed. I said, I'd like to live in the world where that advice is useful! It's also the world where if I think I'm being underpaid, I can go get a new job and negotiate my starting salary, or be a better negotiator for my salary. I'd like to live in a world where if my friends aren't behaving in a balanced and respectful way, I can just ask them to treat me the way I want to be treated. I'd like to live in a world where if a woman says she gets street harassed, men don't swoop in to explain that it's a compliment, really. Where if a woman file a restraining order, the dudes friends don't all swoop in to comfort him and tut tut about how they're being neutral.
I would like to live in that world so much that I'm trying to help build it by engaging in these conversations.
People who identify as men, I know I ask you this here all the time on metafilter, and in my meat space life. I'm going to keep asking.
Please. Help us build this world.
posted by bilabial at 2:34 PM on August 15, 2015 [150 favorites]
I now have information and need to use it to make, well, informed choices. There's definitely a part of me that wishes that I hadn't learned so much about the people I thought were so close to me. And yet, I'm so glad that I know. One of the big EL tasks as a woman is "how to protect yourself without appearing to be paranoid or crazy or man-hating harpy."
It's a very fine line and definitely a catch-22 because if you don't tell guys that you're concerned about these things, how are they supposed to know not to do them? Yet, if you do express concerns, then it's all why are you assuming that all men are terrible? You know I'm not like other guys, right?
One person I read the original article to (because I suspected that waiting for him to read it by himself would drive me up a wall) responded by saying "I don't want to be friends with a person like that. You give what you get, and if you're not getting what you need, go find better friends."
I laughed and laughed. I said, I'd like to live in the world where that advice is useful! It's also the world where if I think I'm being underpaid, I can go get a new job and negotiate my starting salary, or be a better negotiator for my salary. I'd like to live in a world where if my friends aren't behaving in a balanced and respectful way, I can just ask them to treat me the way I want to be treated. I'd like to live in a world where if a woman says she gets street harassed, men don't swoop in to explain that it's a compliment, really. Where if a woman file a restraining order, the dudes friends don't all swoop in to comfort him and tut tut about how they're being neutral.
I would like to live in that world so much that I'm trying to help build it by engaging in these conversations.
People who identify as men, I know I ask you this here all the time on metafilter, and in my meat space life. I'm going to keep asking.
Please. Help us build this world.
posted by bilabial at 2:34 PM on August 15, 2015 [150 favorites]
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posted by divined by radio at 2:53 PM on July 15, 2015 [402 favorites]