Free Pride
July 21, 2015 5:22 PM Subscribe
Free Pride, the alternative pride in Glasgow, announced on that they have decided to ban drag acts by cisgender performers.
Dan Savage: The dingbats running Free Pride don't seem to understand what pride parades and protests are about: demanding that the straight majority learn to tolerate our presence. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." But if we can't get used to each other—if certain segments of the queer community can't tolerate certain other segments of the queer community—what kind of a message does that send the straight majority?
Pride Glasgow had a similar discussion back in 2010 over how Drag could cause discomfort to people however we took the decision that Drag Queens and Kings play an important part in the history of the Pride movement and should be included within the event,’ it told Pink News.
Dan Savage: The dingbats running Free Pride don't seem to understand what pride parades and protests are about: demanding that the straight majority learn to tolerate our presence. "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." But if we can't get used to each other—if certain segments of the queer community can't tolerate certain other segments of the queer community—what kind of a message does that send the straight majority?
Pride Glasgow had a similar discussion back in 2010 over how Drag could cause discomfort to people however we took the decision that Drag Queens and Kings play an important part in the history of the Pride movement and should be included within the event,’ it told Pink News.
This post was deleted for the following reason: This framing is going to lead to a critique of Dan Savage and not a discussion of the topic, sorry. -- restless_nomad
I've always wondered why "pride" gets associated with "drag".
Drag has nothing to do with any of the letters in LGBTQIA - it's an activity, not an identity.
posted by saeculorum at 5:33 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Drag has nothing to do with any of the letters in LGBTQIA - it's an activity, not an identity.
posted by saeculorum at 5:33 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ah, yes, noted trans bully Dan Savage.
Zinnia Jones has a pretty good essay on how modern day drag hurts trans women.
posted by ShawnStruck at 5:34 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Zinnia Jones has a pretty good essay on how modern day drag hurts trans women.
posted by ShawnStruck at 5:34 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's gender noncomformity in the very most visible sense.
posted by Small Dollar at 5:35 PM on July 21, 2015
posted by Small Dollar at 5:35 PM on July 21, 2015
Drag has nothing to do with any of the letters in LGBTQIA - it's an activity, not an identity.
Unfortunately, I don't have my anthropology research notes handy right now so I can't provide cites, but this statement couldn't be more false. Let's just leave it at "go read Judith Butler, stat."
posted by fifthrider at 5:37 PM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately, I don't have my anthropology research notes handy right now so I can't provide cites, but this statement couldn't be more false. Let's just leave it at "go read Judith Butler, stat."
posted by fifthrider at 5:37 PM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Dan "I'm going to reclaim the t-word as a cis man" Savage is lecturing on tolerance within the queer community now? That's rich.
posted by kagredon at 5:38 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kagredon at 5:38 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: Seriously, reading more, but
posted by Xavier Xavier at 5:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Xavier Xavier at 5:42 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought the point of Pride was to deliberately be offensive because fuck you for being offended at us. We're here, we're queer, get used to it.
The idea of pride saying "oh we don't want to offend anyone" seems, well, completely antithetical to the whole point.
But you know, I'm a straight white guy who knows knows enough Latin to think that "cis-" is a stupid opposite but I've lost that battle. (I am not nearsexual.) So, really my opinion here probably doesn't count for much.
But this seems wrong to me. FWIW.
posted by eriko at 5:44 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
The idea of pride saying "oh we don't want to offend anyone" seems, well, completely antithetical to the whole point.
But you know, I'm a straight white guy who knows knows enough Latin to think that "cis-" is a stupid opposite but I've lost that battle. (I am not nearsexual.) So, really my opinion here probably doesn't count for much.
But this seems wrong to me. FWIW.
posted by eriko at 5:44 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Dan Savage represents 25% of the links in this post. Can we please not get derailed by the ad hominems on this?
posted by Xavier Xavier at 5:44 PM on July 21, 2015
posted by Xavier Xavier at 5:44 PM on July 21, 2015
I thought the point of Pride was to deliberately be offensive because fuck you for being offended at us. We're here, we're queer, get used to it.
No, that's not the point of Pride. Pride began to commemorate the Stonewall riots. It has always been about being visible. Not offensive. I'm sure there are people who enjoy being offensive (and I'm NOT saying drag is offensive. I don't think it is.), but that's not the point.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:46 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
No, that's not the point of Pride. Pride began to commemorate the Stonewall riots. It has always been about being visible. Not offensive. I'm sure there are people who enjoy being offensive (and I'm NOT saying drag is offensive. I don't think it is.), but that's not the point.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:46 PM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Zinnia Jones has a pretty good essay on how modern day drag hurts trans women.
Hmm... I don't think that article actually argues that modern drag is intrinsically or necessarily hurtful to trans women, though, except (as the author says) insofar as conceptualizing drag as part of a general "transgender umbrella" hurts trans women. (Cisgaydudefilter, though, so maybe I'm missing the point.)
posted by en forme de poire at 5:46 PM on July 21, 2015
Hmm... I don't think that article actually argues that modern drag is intrinsically or necessarily hurtful to trans women, though, except (as the author says) insofar as conceptualizing drag as part of a general "transgender umbrella" hurts trans women. (Cisgaydudefilter, though, so maybe I'm missing the point.)
posted by en forme de poire at 5:46 PM on July 21, 2015
A comment in The Stranger seemed to have it right: there are male drag queens and queens with fluid gender, so to dismiss this part of the community is not only discrimination but also self-defeating. If you keep throwing away your allies you'll soon have none left.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 5:47 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by a lungful of dragon at 5:47 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought the point of Pride was to deliberately be offensive because fuck you for being offended at us. We're here, we're queer, get used to it.
No, the point of Pride was to disrupt the heteronormative, cisnormative status quo. That cishet people get all weepy when we do so is just a side perk for us to fill up our mugs labeled "STRAIGHT TEARS".
Cis gay men prompting ridicule of trans women isn't the same thing.
posted by Conspire at 5:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, the point of Pride was to disrupt the heteronormative, cisnormative status quo. That cishet people get all weepy when we do so is just a side perk for us to fill up our mugs labeled "STRAIGHT TEARS".
Cis gay men prompting ridicule of trans women isn't the same thing.
posted by Conspire at 5:48 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Transsexuality is about crossing over the gender binary; dressing is about altering its performance. They're entirely orthogonal to each other, yes, but acting like subverting 'conventional' gender norms is somehow harmful to the queer project is just backwards as hell.
posted by fifthrider at 5:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by fifthrider at 5:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Zinnia Jones has a pretty good essay on how modern day drag hurts trans women.
This doesn't seem like an argument against drag performance so much as that several (popular) drag performers are being particularly shitty about trans issues.
The idea of pride saying "oh we don't want to offend anyone" seems, well, completely antithetical to the whole point.
This isn't about the idea (that has historically come up) that drag makes the LGBTEtc. community look bad or whatever. It's about whether it's offensive to people *within* the community.
posted by atoxyl at 5:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
This doesn't seem like an argument against drag performance so much as that several (popular) drag performers are being particularly shitty about trans issues.
The idea of pride saying "oh we don't want to offend anyone" seems, well, completely antithetical to the whole point.
This isn't about the idea (that has historically come up) that drag makes the LGBTEtc. community look bad or whatever. It's about whether it's offensive to people *within* the community.
posted by atoxyl at 5:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Drag, as commonly performed, is radically anti-trans. Ru Paul had to be forced -- on threat of massive boycotts -- to finally remove the world "shemale" from his show. A local drag production has "T-anny Trivia Tuesdays" -- start your week with a slur!
Drag is generally gay cis men dressing up as "women" and occasionally dressing up in "t-anny face" for shits and giggles. It's not funny. It's misogynistic, it's transphobic and it's ugly.
The idea of pride saying "oh we don't want to offend anyone" seems, well, completely antithetical to the whole point.
Pride is fine when it makes broader society uncomfortable. When it starts making women, trans people and minorities uncomfortable, then something has gone awry.
Incidentally, the whole "why can't they just take a joke, jeeez" is the worst manifestation of Reddit Syndrome that you are likely to see here on Metafilter.
posted by Avenger at 5:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Drag is generally gay cis men dressing up as "women" and occasionally dressing up in "t-anny face" for shits and giggles. It's not funny. It's misogynistic, it's transphobic and it's ugly.
The idea of pride saying "oh we don't want to offend anyone" seems, well, completely antithetical to the whole point.
Pride is fine when it makes broader society uncomfortable. When it starts making women, trans people and minorities uncomfortable, then something has gone awry.
Incidentally, the whole "why can't they just take a joke, jeeez" is the worst manifestation of Reddit Syndrome that you are likely to see here on Metafilter.
posted by Avenger at 5:49 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
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Seriously, reading more, but Dan Savage is not the right person to broach concerns about queer community cohesion here.
posted by sciatrix at 5:30 PM on July 21, 2015 [2 favorites]