What if Spider-Man's Uncle Ben was shot by police rather than a burglar?
July 27, 2015 3:18 AM Subscribe
Over on Tumblr, Jolly Good imagines an origin for Spider-Man more in keeping with modern times which the artist behind the all the things blog captures in a couple of key scenes.
I like it, but I'm curious how to work in the whole "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" Uncle Ben Life Lesson [TM], because no matter how many times Sony Pictures wants to show us the origin story to the point of us being tired of it, it seems like an essential facet of the character. Peter takes up the mantle of Spider-Man to atone for an attitude of careless irresponsibility that got his uncle killed.
Plus, I think it'd be a good message that no matter how screwed up of a world the comic book is reflecting, anyone still can have "Great Power" with, or without a radioactive spider bite.
posted by radwolf76 at 3:37 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Plus, I think it'd be a good message that no matter how screwed up of a world the comic book is reflecting, anyone still can have "Great Power" with, or without a radioactive spider bite.
posted by radwolf76 at 3:37 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Sure, let's start with those who've committed assault"
And I thought comics had awful dialogue
posted by timdiggerm at 3:41 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I thought comics had awful dialogue
posted by timdiggerm at 3:41 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ditto radwolf76. I love the concept of an underprivileged hero who battles police injustice, but one of the key facets to Peter Parker's origin is that Ben's death was partially and indirectly his own fault. Similarly, Miles Morales is appalled by the notion of risking his life for a career in superheroism, until he witnesses Parker's death at the hands of the Green Goblin and realizes he could have intervened. Without that, you have a hero driven by vengeance instead of guilt and responsibility, and I don't see how that can be Spider-Man.
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
It would be easy to make Ben's death at the hands of the police partially Peters fault. Peter did something at home that got the neighbours to call the police, say, and Ben gets shot as they enter the house. Or to follow the original more closely, Peter sees a cop harassing another guy near their house, ignores him and then the same cop kills Ben.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:14 AM on July 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:14 AM on July 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
So make Peter Parker a trainee or junior cop who could have spoken out about racist police but felt unable to do so and sees Ben die as a result of those unchallenged policemen. That gives the opportunity to have Peter see lots of incidences of racism and Spider-man to deal with them where is he less able to do so.
posted by biffa at 4:25 AM on July 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by biffa at 4:25 AM on July 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
Most horrible possible scenario but in keeping with the principle motivations of guilt and responsibility rather than vengeance: Peter is a betamale gamer gater who SWATs a house in the neighborhood a block away. What he didn't know was that his uncle Ben was at the house at the time of the raid, because he had been helping the underprivileged family with maintenance. In the chaos the cops mistake the hammer in his hand for a weapon and kill him. Peter is tormented by guilt and etc.
posted by ardgedee at 4:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ardgedee at 4:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Now, that he feels worse about his uncle than the woman and family he was being horrible to might/might not be useful plot-wise. Or maybe that also gets wrapped up in his sense of guilt...
posted by ardgedee at 4:29 AM on July 27, 2015
posted by ardgedee at 4:29 AM on July 27, 2015
J. Jonah Jameson's attitude would be remarkably unchanged in this scenario.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:48 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:48 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
I like it, but I'm curious how to work in the whole "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" Uncle Ben Life Lesson [TM],
Uncle Ben's "with great power comes great responsibility" motto could be reinforced and given even greater depth of meaning in this scenario, if Parker came to recognize that the police accodentally killed his uncle due to over-aggressive policing, if it were framed that way. That theme seems like it would make a natural fit for an accidental police killing version of the origin story, since police officers do wield extraordinary powers most of us don't by virtue of their policing authorities.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:57 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Uncle Ben's "with great power comes great responsibility" motto could be reinforced and given even greater depth of meaning in this scenario, if Parker came to recognize that the police accodentally killed his uncle due to over-aggressive policing, if it were framed that way. That theme seems like it would make a natural fit for an accidental police killing version of the origin story, since police officers do wield extraordinary powers most of us don't by virtue of their policing authorities.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:57 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
J. Jonah Jameson's attitude would be remarkably unchanged in this scenario.
Can we agree that, for all of the brilliant casting choices we've seen in Marvel movies--including Robert Downey, Jr. as Tony Stark and two actual knights going head-to-head in X-Men--the one that most perfectly extracted the character off the comics page and pasted him onto the screen was J.K. Simmons as J. Jonah Jameson? All I have to do is think of him barking "PARKER!" and I giggle.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:10 AM on July 27, 2015 [42 favorites]
Can we agree that, for all of the brilliant casting choices we've seen in Marvel movies--including Robert Downey, Jr. as Tony Stark and two actual knights going head-to-head in X-Men--the one that most perfectly extracted the character off the comics page and pasted him onto the screen was J.K. Simmons as J. Jonah Jameson? All I have to do is think of him barking "PARKER!" and I giggle.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:10 AM on July 27, 2015 [42 favorites]
This sounds fine for a new hero, but foisting it on the Peter Parker Spuder-Man sounds all sorts of short sighted and contrived.
Create a new hero (or heroine) with this background and go to town. There's lots of great directions it could go.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:24 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Create a new hero (or heroine) with this background and go to town. There's lots of great directions it could go.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:24 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
the agents of KAOS: "Or to follow the original more closely, Peter sees a cop harassing another guy near their house, ignores him and then the same cop kills Ben."
Peter starts out as a casual activist against aggressive policing - he's seen a lot of it in his neighborhood. One night after he is out practicing his new abilities, he gets harassed by an asshole cop, and Peter has the opportunity to report the harassment (maybe a friendly, honest cop witnesses something, but needs Peter to corroborate). But now that he's got the privilege of superpowers he doesn't think he has to worry about police brutality anymore - he can easily handle anything they can dish out. A couple days later that same cop kills Ben for no good reason (I like the idea that Peter is indirectly responsible for the cop's attention landing on Ben). The lesson could even be tweaked to "With great privilege comes great responsibility."
posted by Rock Steady at 5:26 AM on July 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Peter starts out as a casual activist against aggressive policing - he's seen a lot of it in his neighborhood. One night after he is out practicing his new abilities, he gets harassed by an asshole cop, and Peter has the opportunity to report the harassment (maybe a friendly, honest cop witnesses something, but needs Peter to corroborate). But now that he's got the privilege of superpowers he doesn't think he has to worry about police brutality anymore - he can easily handle anything they can dish out. A couple days later that same cop kills Ben for no good reason (I like the idea that Peter is indirectly responsible for the cop's attention landing on Ben). The lesson could even be tweaked to "With great privilege comes great responsibility."
posted by Rock Steady at 5:26 AM on July 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Gosh, it would have been lovely had the artist consented to actually let me read more than about half of the dialogue, so I could properly appreciate what was on offer. Although I do think a SoC (Spiderperson of Color) is an idea that is long overdue.
posted by Samizdata at 5:40 AM on July 27, 2015
posted by Samizdata at 5:40 AM on July 27, 2015
I like it, but I'm curious how to work in the whole "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" Uncle Ben Life Lesson [TM], because no matter how many times Sony Pictures wants to show us the origin story to the point of us being tired of it, it seems like an essential facet of the character. Peter takes up the mantle of Spider-Man to atone for an attitude of careless irresponsibility that got his uncle killed.
I think this works EVEN BETTER because it shows that the police have great power and are not using it responsibly, and Spiderman has the obligation to help by working outside the system to protect people. The police have power, they have abdicated their responsibility, and most people have no recourse, so if you're Spiderman you're morally obligated to help. I think this would be fantastic!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
I think this works EVEN BETTER because it shows that the police have great power and are not using it responsibly, and Spiderman has the obligation to help by working outside the system to protect people. The police have power, they have abdicated their responsibility, and most people have no recourse, so if you're Spiderman you're morally obligated to help. I think this would be fantastic!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 5:52 AM on July 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
Of course, I might partially think this because I am FASCINATED by the relationship between superheroes and civic institutions and wonder a lot about how the normal people in these worlds live their lives. I effing hate Batman for a ton of reasons and I don't consume any Batman-related media but I would watch the fuck out of a TV show set in the Gotham Public Schools. How do you live your normal, difficult life as a teacher when you also keep having to evacuate for like poisonous hallucinogenic crazy gas released by the Scarecrow? Do you have supervillain attack drills in addition to fire drills? Who are the people who actually live in Gotham at this point? What are their lives like? Why do they stay? How do they raise their kids? What are the different ways that ordinary people cope with living in this hellscape? If you're a teacher, how do you explain what's happening to yourself, much less to your students? How do you keep them physically and emotionally safe? What if your principal comes in for an official classroom evaluation on the day someone has decided to plant bombs all over the city? Do parents just ignore the terrible uncertainty of their lives? Do kids growing up in Gotham assume that everyone lives like this? I am desperate to see these issues explored through a GPS television series.
Seriously, I really really want this to happen. Get on it, writers.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:00 AM on July 27, 2015 [27 favorites]
Seriously, I really really want this to happen. Get on it, writers.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:00 AM on July 27, 2015 [27 favorites]
It would certainly make his career long dedication to non-lethal force make a little more sense, if his key moment of transformation revolves around misuse of lethal force by "the good guys"
posted by French Fry at 6:00 AM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by French Fry at 6:00 AM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
Seriously, I really really want this to happen. Get on it, writers.
Seriously, I'd read the hell out of that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:12 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Seriously, I'd read the hell out of that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:12 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd certainly read that comic. I would also like to see a black superhero who didn't have to have their origin story be about racism, because I think that's the kind of thing that's needed too - I know when I think about queer heroes, I appreciate both the bash-back kind and the "while I was hiking I was bitten by a radioactive gopher just at random" kind, and I feel like they complement each other, acknowledging that there's oppression but that it doesn't necessarily provide the event horizon of people's lives.
I wonder it would take a superhero to make a majority of white people see police killings for what they are. Neither seeing real people nor seeing Fruitvale Station nor anything else seems to do it. Maybe a comic book would be just unreal enough to get past people's/our defenses.
If I were giving someone super powers, I would give them the power to make people see events and pay attention to them, because that would at least make them think.
Seriously, I really really want this to happen. Get on it, writers.
I am surprised that there isn't one like this; it seems like such a natural extension of some stuff I see happening in fantasy and SF.
(Also, there's this really neat essay by Samuel Delany from the 1980s about sword and sorcery and his Neveryona books where he talks about how sword and sorcery is fundamentally about economics and ideas about how markets develop, and how important it is when writing your swashbuckling to think through how, say, the fruitseller is going to feel when his fruit gets scattered all over by the hero and the villain sword-and-sorcery-ing all over the marketplace.)
posted by Frowner at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I wonder it would take a superhero to make a majority of white people see police killings for what they are. Neither seeing real people nor seeing Fruitvale Station nor anything else seems to do it. Maybe a comic book would be just unreal enough to get past people's/our defenses.
If I were giving someone super powers, I would give them the power to make people see events and pay attention to them, because that would at least make them think.
Seriously, I really really want this to happen. Get on it, writers.
I am surprised that there isn't one like this; it seems like such a natural extension of some stuff I see happening in fantasy and SF.
(Also, there's this really neat essay by Samuel Delany from the 1980s about sword and sorcery and his Neveryona books where he talks about how sword and sorcery is fundamentally about economics and ideas about how markets develop, and how important it is when writing your swashbuckling to think through how, say, the fruitseller is going to feel when his fruit gets scattered all over by the hero and the villain sword-and-sorcery-ing all over the marketplace.)
posted by Frowner at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
You guys don't think an African-American Spider-Man with an Uncle named Ben would be problematic?
posted by entropicamericana at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Although I do think a SoC (Spiderperson of Color) is an idea that is long overdue.
Meet Miles Morales.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
Meet Miles Morales.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
Peter works at the Bugle before he gets bitten, and caves to JJJ pressuring him to drop a story about a racist cop abusing his power. This same cop later kills Ben. After this, Peter Parker as Spider-Man and as an independent photojournalist sets out to keep those in power responsible.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:42 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 6:42 AM on July 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
After this, Peter Parker as Spider-Man and as an independent photojournalist...
Don't you mean blogger?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Don't you mean blogger?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pater Aletheias: "Although I do think a SoC (Spiderperson of Color) is an idea that is long overdue.
Meet Miles Morales."
Cheers. Frankly I sort of fell from the Marvel fold by and large pre-Ultimates.
posted by Samizdata at 6:49 AM on July 27, 2015
Meet Miles Morales."
Cheers. Frankly I sort of fell from the Marvel fold by and large pre-Ultimates.
posted by Samizdata at 6:49 AM on July 27, 2015
Peter works at the Bugle before he gets bitten, and caves to JJJ pressuring him to drop a story about a racist cop abusing his power.
This could work well if Parker is a "diversity hire" (or intern), and is not getting any credibility or actual work until his spider powers let him get great photos. That would tie into the original Parker's initial impulse of using his powers for gain. Then you could set up a tension between Parker using journalism to expose corruption vs using his powers to beat up criminals. Sure, the Green Goblin kills a few people with pumpkin bombs, but the factories his company has in economically disadvantaged areas are killing thousands with illegal dumping, poor safety standards, etc.
Also, imagine a world where the police could credibly be frightened on anybody -- "I thought he might have heat vision, so that's why I shot him 8 times."
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:53 AM on July 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
This could work well if Parker is a "diversity hire" (or intern), and is not getting any credibility or actual work until his spider powers let him get great photos. That would tie into the original Parker's initial impulse of using his powers for gain. Then you could set up a tension between Parker using journalism to expose corruption vs using his powers to beat up criminals. Sure, the Green Goblin kills a few people with pumpkin bombs, but the factories his company has in economically disadvantaged areas are killing thousands with illegal dumping, poor safety standards, etc.
Also, imagine a world where the police could credibly be frightened on anybody -- "I thought he might have heat vision, so that's why I shot him 8 times."
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:53 AM on July 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
"I thought he might have heat vision, so that's why I shot him 8 times."
This plot has actually been used by marvel a couple different times. Cops killing people they thought were Mutants and that leading to (not better cops) MORE restrictions and registration of mutants.
posted by French Fry at 7:00 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
This plot has actually been used by marvel a couple different times. Cops killing people they thought were Mutants and that leading to (not better cops) MORE restrictions and registration of mutants.
posted by French Fry at 7:00 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
9If I were giving someone super powers, I would give them the power to make people see events and pay attention to them, because that would at least make them think.
But that's just what this would do! Remixes and reboots are now an important part of our culture: they're how we tell ourselves the story of what we have seen in a way that we can understand it. We have to create frames for those observations that help them hang together in salient ways, and the fight over those enframing moments is always part of any radical politics.
I can't help thinking that this is ultimately a little bit tied up with the US form of crony capitalism and rent seeking. In this case the problem is overlong copyrights: in an ideal world Spiderman would be available to all to remix as they chose, like Sherlock Holmes currently is. It's hard not to think that comic books could and should be doing this kind of work by now: taking our myths and blending the elements to help us work through our current politics.
The model for the superhero was always the demigod, and just like the Greek and Roman gods it would be nice to see how different folks would transform the characters. But of course, for the time being it's all got to suit a specific commercialization agenda from the big comics publishers, which can be well or poorly executed depending on institutional vagaries. Neither Sony nor Disney would ever let this happen to their Spiderman, it'd deplete the brand!
Fuck the brand.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:09 AM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
But that's just what this would do! Remixes and reboots are now an important part of our culture: they're how we tell ourselves the story of what we have seen in a way that we can understand it. We have to create frames for those observations that help them hang together in salient ways, and the fight over those enframing moments is always part of any radical politics.
I can't help thinking that this is ultimately a little bit tied up with the US form of crony capitalism and rent seeking. In this case the problem is overlong copyrights: in an ideal world Spiderman would be available to all to remix as they chose, like Sherlock Holmes currently is. It's hard not to think that comic books could and should be doing this kind of work by now: taking our myths and blending the elements to help us work through our current politics.
The model for the superhero was always the demigod, and just like the Greek and Roman gods it would be nice to see how different folks would transform the characters. But of course, for the time being it's all got to suit a specific commercialization agenda from the big comics publishers, which can be well or poorly executed depending on institutional vagaries. Neither Sony nor Disney would ever let this happen to their Spiderman, it'd deplete the brand!
Fuck the brand.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:09 AM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Seriously, I really really want this to happen. Get on it, writers.
There are elements of this in Gotham Central, but what you want is pretty close to the early volumes of Astro City.
posted by kewb at 7:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
There are elements of this in Gotham Central, but what you want is pretty close to the early volumes of Astro City.
posted by kewb at 7:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Seriously, I really really want this to happen. Get on it, writers.
Mrs. Pterodactyl
They have. I think because "don't consume any Batman-related media" you're not familiar with the stories, but there have been tons of stories about what life is like for Gothamites. Gotham Central was a great series from the early 2000s about what life is like for the regular GCPD, with Batman hardly showing up at all. Batman: Gotham Nights and Batman: Gotham Nights II focus on normal citizens. There have also been individual issues or arcs that look into everyday life for Gotham's citizens.
This ideas has been explored in other areas too. For example, the classic Marvels miniseries by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross, for example, tells the history of Marvel from the 40s-90s (when the series was published) through the eyes of Everyman photographer Phil Sheldon. Astro City also looks into this, as do series like Powers. Watchmen was also created largely to explore the impact of superheroes on a realistic world.
On preview: Damn it, kewb.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:33 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mrs. Pterodactyl
They have. I think because "don't consume any Batman-related media" you're not familiar with the stories, but there have been tons of stories about what life is like for Gothamites. Gotham Central was a great series from the early 2000s about what life is like for the regular GCPD, with Batman hardly showing up at all. Batman: Gotham Nights and Batman: Gotham Nights II focus on normal citizens. There have also been individual issues or arcs that look into everyday life for Gotham's citizens.
This ideas has been explored in other areas too. For example, the classic Marvels miniseries by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross, for example, tells the history of Marvel from the 40s-90s (when the series was published) through the eyes of Everyman photographer Phil Sheldon. Astro City also looks into this, as do series like Powers. Watchmen was also created largely to explore the impact of superheroes on a realistic world.
On preview: Damn it, kewb.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:33 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
...but I would watch the fuck out of a TV show set in the Gotham Public Schools.
Might want to check out Gotham Academy.
posted by griphus at 7:39 AM on July 27, 2015
Might want to check out Gotham Academy.
posted by griphus at 7:39 AM on July 27, 2015
Also it looks like the Milestone Comics imprint is coming back and will be in a self-contained universe which is good news for anyone who wants to see some black superheroes in a context that isn't the necessary presence of ten thousand other white superheroes.
posted by griphus at 7:45 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 7:45 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think this works EVEN BETTER because it shows that the police have great power and are not using it responsibly, and Spiderman has the obligation to help by working outside the system to protect people. The police have power, they have abdicated their responsibility, and most people have no recourse, so if you're Spiderman you're morally obligated to help. I think this would be fantastic!
There is a fascinating possibility with this idea, if the writer is committed to exploring not only clear abuses of power and that gray area between justified and unjustified, but Spiderman's imperfections of his own judgement and the guilt and uncertainty that comes with the possibility that there are times he might have not been in the right either when dispensing his own justice. How does he deal with his own form of 'bad shoot,' where he later finds out that he actually took out a good cop, because of a judgement call based on incomplete data and his own bias that made him see what he wanted to see?
Such a thing would be an interesting way to show not only the clear awfulness of power abuse, but it also would show, from both the superhero's and the average police officer's point of view, how hard, complicated, and damaging it can be to be in a situation where you have to make that judgement call in an instant.
posted by chambers at 8:06 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
There is a fascinating possibility with this idea, if the writer is committed to exploring not only clear abuses of power and that gray area between justified and unjustified, but Spiderman's imperfections of his own judgement and the guilt and uncertainty that comes with the possibility that there are times he might have not been in the right either when dispensing his own justice. How does he deal with his own form of 'bad shoot,' where he later finds out that he actually took out a good cop, because of a judgement call based on incomplete data and his own bias that made him see what he wanted to see?
Such a thing would be an interesting way to show not only the clear awfulness of power abuse, but it also would show, from both the superhero's and the average police officer's point of view, how hard, complicated, and damaging it can be to be in a situation where you have to make that judgement call in an instant.
posted by chambers at 8:06 AM on July 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Brandon Blatcher: "Peter Parker Spuder-Man"
Just a torrent of potatoes everywhere, pummeling bad guys left and right.
posted by boo_radley at 8:08 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Just a torrent of potatoes everywhere, pummeling bad guys left and right.
posted by boo_radley at 8:08 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
What if Superman grew up in Germany instead of America?
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:15 AM on July 27, 2015
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:15 AM on July 27, 2015
What if Superman grew up in Germany instead of America?
Multiversity: Mastermen (with its memorable first page).
What if Superman grew up in the USSR instead of America?
Superman: Red Son
What if Superman grew up in Gotham instead of Smallville?
Superman: Speeding Bullets
posted by Sangermaine at 8:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Multiversity: Mastermen (with its memorable first page).
What if Superman grew up in the USSR instead of America?
Superman: Red Son
What if Superman grew up in Gotham instead of Smallville?
Superman: Speeding Bullets
posted by Sangermaine at 8:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
This could work well if Parker is a "diversity hire" (or intern), and is not getting any credibility or actual work until his spider powers let him get great photos. That would tie into the original Parker's initial impulse of using his powers for gain.
Or if there is a tension between JJJ's splashy, sensational and lucrative approach to "journalism" and the Ben Urich way of ethical journalism telling truth to power, so Peter has to choose between mentors and once he gets his powers and starts feeling above it all he chooses wrong and sides with Jonah, abandoning the slow, methodically constructed expose on institutional racism in the NYPD he was working on with Urich for easy money spider-powered paparazzi work for Jonah.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:36 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Or if there is a tension between JJJ's splashy, sensational and lucrative approach to "journalism" and the Ben Urich way of ethical journalism telling truth to power, so Peter has to choose between mentors and once he gets his powers and starts feeling above it all he chooses wrong and sides with Jonah, abandoning the slow, methodically constructed expose on institutional racism in the NYPD he was working on with Urich for easy money spider-powered paparazzi work for Jonah.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:36 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Multiversity: Mastermen
*Minor Spoiler for V for Vendetta*
Something I liked about the film version of V for Vendetta was its strong underlining of the idea that V's plan revolved around empowering the people rather than a "single hero fights for justice" narrative. After all, fighting fascism with superheroes is kind of giving up before you have even started....
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:41 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
*Minor Spoiler for V for Vendetta*
Something I liked about the film version of V for Vendetta was its strong underlining of the idea that V's plan revolved around empowering the people rather than a "single hero fights for justice" narrative. After all, fighting fascism with superheroes is kind of giving up before you have even started....
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:41 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
"anyway, that's how the MeFi comics imprint got its start with its first heroes, Norwegian Batman and Dutch Superman."
posted by boo_radley at 8:50 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by boo_radley at 8:50 AM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, holy crap, I didn't even think about the logical conclusions of the Gwen Stacy storyline if she's still white in this version. Black, activist, vigilante enemy of racist police Spider-Man gets dragged into a fight with the Green Goblin and young white daughter of a police captain dies in it. Captain George Stacy would be a huge character in this. A man in direct conflict with Spider-Man not necessarily because of personal racist sentiment but because of thin blue line BS (he could even like Peter personally when he's dating Gwen) pushed by his grief and the siren song of dirty, racist cops offering easy catharsis in brutality into becoming a monster. Captain Stacy's story would be an examination of how white supremacist ideas can propagate where race can be twisted into a convenient scapegoat and an inside look at just how much power police have and what happens when the wrong people are given that power.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:03 AM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:03 AM on July 27, 2015 [11 favorites]
And, oh man, all those big name white heroes on the Avengers and in the Fantastic Four who love Peter to death personally but still distance themselves and their teams publicly and prevaricate when asked about these topics on the record. I feel like Cap would be the one to finally stand with Spidey, maybe even announcing this in an exclusive interview with Peter, but it would take some self-examination for him to get there and he'd still have to deal with the cold shoulder from Stark who is all totally in agreement privately but spineless in public as a representative of the Avengers.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:13 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:13 AM on July 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, the dynamic between Spider-Man and the Punisher is going to be amped up incredibly. Even if Frank doesn't have an ounce of racist intent, there's no way Peter can let him continue to operate as a self-appointed judge/jury/etc. Which is really the way it always should be even with the status quo as it's been forever, but instead we tend to get this weird "Oh Frank, we said nonlethals only! Classic Frank!" thing that never feels believable. New Spidey would make it a serious priority to take the Punisher down every time he pops up, to the point that Frank probably avoids NYC.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:27 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And, oh man, all those big name white heroes on the Avengers and in the Fantastic Four who love Peter to death personally but still distance themselves and their teams publicly and prevaricate when asked about these topics on the record.
To be fair, an aspect of Spider-Man that is more often ignored than invoked is that he's supposed to be kind of creepy. He shouldn't climb walls so much as scuttle up them, he's perfectly happy hanging upside down, he sprays that creepy goo everywhere.... he should be unnerving. This is why, no matter how often Spider-Man saves a person or a neighborhood or the city, he's always one suspicion away from being a hunted man again. Which would go well with the theme of this thread.
(Ditko came back to the idea with the Creeper, who, when done well, is definitely not cuddly so much as vaguely disturbing. OK, with that costume and name, very disturbing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:38 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
To be fair, an aspect of Spider-Man that is more often ignored than invoked is that he's supposed to be kind of creepy. He shouldn't climb walls so much as scuttle up them, he's perfectly happy hanging upside down, he sprays that creepy goo everywhere.... he should be unnerving. This is why, no matter how often Spider-Man saves a person or a neighborhood or the city, he's always one suspicion away from being a hunted man again. Which would go well with the theme of this thread.
(Ditko came back to the idea with the Creeper, who, when done well, is definitely not cuddly so much as vaguely disturbing. OK, with that costume and name, very disturbing.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:38 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you like the basic idea in the OP, the Spider-Punk (Hobie Brown) story in Spider-Verse #2 is pretty great. Black punk rock Spider-Man fighting Osborne-as-Reagan with loud guitars. Well worth checking out.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:49 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:49 AM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I love that Spider-Punk's world is (was) Earth-138.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:06 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sangermaine at 10:06 AM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
an aspect of Spider-Man that is more often ignored than invoked is that he's supposed to be kind of creepy
Very few heroes wear a full-face mask. Even Iron Man has humanesque eye-slits and a mouth.
He's one of the most secretive heroes, even to other capes. I seem to recall one comic where he says "whelp, off to see my wife" and the behind-his-back reaction from Luke Cage and Danny Rand is "His wife?" "I thought he was gay." These are people who trust him, some of his closest super-friends. He doesn't let people in.
Perhaps the least popular thing about him from an in-universe perspective is his sense of humour. We who have access to the inside of his head know that he's trying to paper over fear and insecurity; for us it's humanizing. Everyone else must be wondering what kind of dudebro makes bad puns while lives are at stake. They must think he's a complete asshole.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:15 AM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Very few heroes wear a full-face mask. Even Iron Man has humanesque eye-slits and a mouth.
He's one of the most secretive heroes, even to other capes. I seem to recall one comic where he says "whelp, off to see my wife" and the behind-his-back reaction from Luke Cage and Danny Rand is "His wife?" "I thought he was gay." These are people who trust him, some of his closest super-friends. He doesn't let people in.
Perhaps the least popular thing about him from an in-universe perspective is his sense of humour. We who have access to the inside of his head know that he's trying to paper over fear and insecurity; for us it's humanizing. Everyone else must be wondering what kind of dudebro makes bad puns while lives are at stake. They must think he's a complete asshole.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:15 AM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
You guys don't think an African-American Spider-Man with an Uncle named Ben would be problematic?
OK, maybe in this version, he's always referred to as Uncle Benjamin. Or maybe he's Peter grandfather in this version.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:10 PM on July 27, 2015
OK, maybe in this version, he's always referred to as Uncle Benjamin. Or maybe he's Peter grandfather in this version.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:10 PM on July 27, 2015
What about Paviitr Prabhakar and his beloved Uncle Bhim?
posted by Sangermaine at 12:53 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sangermaine at 12:53 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Gwen's already been mentioned but I'm intrigued thinking about how Mary Jane Watson would be handled in this 'verse. She's an ambitious, independent working class woman who fights her way up the ladder while taking flack from other characters and the audience for being not just passively sexy but actively, assertively sexual. Considering the additional burden women of color face in being either hypersexualized or hyper-desexualized (depending on ethnicity, class, gender expression, etc etc) it almost makes more sense if she's anything but white.
Or if there is a tension between JJJ's splashy, sensational and lucrative approach to "journalism" and the Ben Urich way of ethical journalism telling truth to power...
I love this idea but would sub in Robbie Robertson instead of Urich, or with Urich in addition to Robbie. For one thing it'd be great for Peter to have a black male mentor, for another that's basically already the role Robbie plays in the spider-verse (or played until he got sidelined, booooooo) except instead of his being Jonah's foil Jonah is his foil.
Besides Miles and Paviitr, I'm going to mention Cindy Moon aka Silk as my favorite spider-hero and one of my favorite superhero series of the moment, along with Kamala Khan's Ms. Marvel (not spider-powered, but hits the best notes of high-school-Peter-Parker while not being high-school-Peter-Parker, and has much more going for it besides). Paviitr and Spider-Gwen are co-starring with a bunch of other spider-characters including Anya Corazon/Spider-Girl in Spider-Verse, which I think is supposed to turn into Web Warriors at some point. Anya has had two previous solo titles and a bunch of guest appearances in other titles. Spider-Man 2099 had a recent series (along with his one from the 90's) but I'm not sure what's going on with the character right now.
posted by bettafish at 2:14 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or if there is a tension between JJJ's splashy, sensational and lucrative approach to "journalism" and the Ben Urich way of ethical journalism telling truth to power...
I love this idea but would sub in Robbie Robertson instead of Urich, or with Urich in addition to Robbie. For one thing it'd be great for Peter to have a black male mentor, for another that's basically already the role Robbie plays in the spider-verse (or played until he got sidelined, booooooo) except instead of his being Jonah's foil Jonah is his foil.
Besides Miles and Paviitr, I'm going to mention Cindy Moon aka Silk as my favorite spider-hero and one of my favorite superhero series of the moment, along with Kamala Khan's Ms. Marvel (not spider-powered, but hits the best notes of high-school-Peter-Parker while not being high-school-Peter-Parker, and has much more going for it besides). Paviitr and Spider-Gwen are co-starring with a bunch of other spider-characters including Anya Corazon/Spider-Girl in Spider-Verse, which I think is supposed to turn into Web Warriors at some point. Anya has had two previous solo titles and a bunch of guest appearances in other titles. Spider-Man 2099 had a recent series (along with his one from the 90's) but I'm not sure what's going on with the character right now.
posted by bettafish at 2:14 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
entropicaAmericana - "You guys don't think an African-American Spider-Man with an Uncle named Ben would be problematic?"
Isn't there an African-American character named Ben Urich in Daredevil?
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:41 PM on July 27, 2015
Isn't there an African-American character named Ben Urich in Daredevil?
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:41 PM on July 27, 2015
Sidebar: this is not quite what Mrs. Pterodactyl was talking about, but Spider-Man's Tangled Web was an anthology series exploring the lives of characters who get tangentially caught up in Spider-Man's adventures. If rummaging through back issue bins is your thing, #4 was Greg Rucka and Eduardo Risso's Eisner-nominated look at the life of a Kingpin mook and #20 was Zeb Wells and Dean Haspiel doing one of the greatest JJJ stories ever.
posted by bettafish at 2:44 PM on July 27, 2015
posted by bettafish at 2:44 PM on July 27, 2015
I love this idea but would sub in Robbie Robertson instead of Urich, or with Urich in addition to Robbie. For one thing it'd be great for Peter to have a black male mentor, for another that's basically already the role Robbie plays in the spider-verse (or played until he got sidelined, booooooo) except instead of his being Jonah's foil Jonah is his foil.
I went back and forth between Robbie and Ben when I was writing that comment - in my mind, it came down to Ben because he's the street level reporter and Robertson is editorial staff, where he's an important ally to get Ben's more antiestablishment stories published when JJJ tries to shoot them down. Also in my mind this Ben Urich is Vondie Curtis-Hall's Ben from Daredevil because that really should be the canonical Ben Urich, honestly. It's a character-defining performance. But yeah, it could go either way - and Robbie would be very important no matter what in a story like this. He came up through the ranks with Jameson, yet of course Jameson got promoted faster and farther. But there'd be an old grudging respect between the two of them due to their shared history, even if Jameson has fallen far from his ideals as a bright-eyed young reporter. Lots of hooks to get into the POV of the generation before Peter and their struggles, and the way that someone like Jameson could trade ideals and ethics for money and attention. This Jameson isn't a full-on Roger Ailes, but what he produces does have that tone-deaf, vapid and patronizing feel of something like Fox & Friends, that sort of suburban racism that doesn't even acknowledge the concept of privilege and wonders why everyone can't be just like them.
Maybe it's Robbie and JJJ as the angel and devil on Peter's shoulders before Ben Parker's death, and afterwards Peter leaves the Bugle to do his own thing and Robbie introduces him to Ben Urich, another independent reporter who would be an ally in this thing Peter's trying to do.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:44 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I went back and forth between Robbie and Ben when I was writing that comment - in my mind, it came down to Ben because he's the street level reporter and Robertson is editorial staff, where he's an important ally to get Ben's more antiestablishment stories published when JJJ tries to shoot them down. Also in my mind this Ben Urich is Vondie Curtis-Hall's Ben from Daredevil because that really should be the canonical Ben Urich, honestly. It's a character-defining performance. But yeah, it could go either way - and Robbie would be very important no matter what in a story like this. He came up through the ranks with Jameson, yet of course Jameson got promoted faster and farther. But there'd be an old grudging respect between the two of them due to their shared history, even if Jameson has fallen far from his ideals as a bright-eyed young reporter. Lots of hooks to get into the POV of the generation before Peter and their struggles, and the way that someone like Jameson could trade ideals and ethics for money and attention. This Jameson isn't a full-on Roger Ailes, but what he produces does have that tone-deaf, vapid and patronizing feel of something like Fox & Friends, that sort of suburban racism that doesn't even acknowledge the concept of privilege and wonders why everyone can't be just like them.
Maybe it's Robbie and JJJ as the angel and devil on Peter's shoulders before Ben Parker's death, and afterwards Peter leaves the Bugle to do his own thing and Robbie introduces him to Ben Urich, another independent reporter who would be an ally in this thing Peter's trying to do.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:44 PM on July 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Okay, I can definitely get behind that, Jason. And I was in a no-internet bubble when Daredevil came out and haven't had time to catch up on Netflix stuff yet, so I actually didn't know about Vondie Curtis-Hall! Which seems kind of amazing the more I think about it, since I've only been doing the bare minimum to avoid the most blatant spoilery discussions.
posted by bettafish at 2:57 PM on July 27, 2015
posted by bettafish at 2:57 PM on July 27, 2015
You guys don't think an African-American Spider-Man with an Uncle named Ben would be problematic?
Just hang a lampshade on it in a dialogue box and then drop the subject. "Yeah, I've heard the rice jokes. His name is Ben, he's my uncle, and I love him like a father. Now shut up."
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:51 PM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Just hang a lampshade on it in a dialogue box and then drop the subject. "Yeah, I've heard the rice jokes. His name is Ben, he's my uncle, and I love him like a father. Now shut up."
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:51 PM on July 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
A ton of good suggestions for how to approach the WGPCGR aspect of it since my comment near the top. One thing that I think would be very important to try to convey, would be that Peter should credibly have had the power to actually stop what happens to Uncle Ben.
Considering how the circumstances of Ben's fate get changed, being able to show that, yes, sometimes there's a chance that bad cops can be stopped would be an interesting message to send, even if readers discount it by thinking to themselves "at least in the comic books".
posted by radwolf76 at 6:12 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Considering how the circumstances of Ben's fate get changed, being able to show that, yes, sometimes there's a chance that bad cops can be stopped would be an interesting message to send, even if readers discount it by thinking to themselves "at least in the comic books".
posted by radwolf76 at 6:12 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
One thing that I think would be very important to try to convey, would be that Peter should credibly have had the power to actually stop what happens to Uncle Ben.
Or he saw it, couldn't do anything about it, and didn't have his camera with him. That would help explain why he was documenting everything in his early days.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:29 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or he saw it, couldn't do anything about it, and didn't have his camera with him. That would help explain why he was documenting everything in his early days.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:29 PM on July 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Considering how the circumstances of Ben's fate get changed, being able to show that, yes, sometimes there's a chance that bad cops can be stopped would be an interesting message to send, even if readers discount it by thinking to themselves "at least in the comic books".
I think it would be hugely important in this take on Spider-Man to show that not only can they be stopped, but that the hearts and minds of people can be changed. There's just something to this take on Spidey, where he can affect positive and relevant change on so many levels in-story... I dunno, I've been freaking out about this idea a lot today because, to me, the Spider-Man concept is capital-I Important in western culture, even if it rarely lives up to its potential. The simple mantra of "with great power comes great responsibility" and Peter's age positions it as an allegory for coming into the power of adulthood and using that power to change the world for the better. It's a powerful idea. Spider-Man (at his best) is the one superhero whose example, if emulated, would absolutely change the world. Ben didn't have much power at all, really. But he knew that what he had should be used to help others with less than him, even if that was just the power to inspire a kid that he knew would somehow become something spectacular.
And this new take on it has been absolutely captivating me with possibilities (I mean seriously, I've been posting way too much in this thread) because it's a perfect fit. Spider-Man works best when relevant to the audience. The best audience for Spider-Man is kids a little younger than Spider-Man so that he is an aspirational figure, teaching them how to grow responsibly. Power can also mean privilege. This take makes the core concept so relevant to this moment in time that it feels necessary to me, like this is what the Spider-Man concept should be if it aspires to be its best. And on top of that, it's an incredibly fertile field for stories.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:19 PM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think it would be hugely important in this take on Spider-Man to show that not only can they be stopped, but that the hearts and minds of people can be changed. There's just something to this take on Spidey, where he can affect positive and relevant change on so many levels in-story... I dunno, I've been freaking out about this idea a lot today because, to me, the Spider-Man concept is capital-I Important in western culture, even if it rarely lives up to its potential. The simple mantra of "with great power comes great responsibility" and Peter's age positions it as an allegory for coming into the power of adulthood and using that power to change the world for the better. It's a powerful idea. Spider-Man (at his best) is the one superhero whose example, if emulated, would absolutely change the world. Ben didn't have much power at all, really. But he knew that what he had should be used to help others with less than him, even if that was just the power to inspire a kid that he knew would somehow become something spectacular.
And this new take on it has been absolutely captivating me with possibilities (I mean seriously, I've been posting way too much in this thread) because it's a perfect fit. Spider-Man works best when relevant to the audience. The best audience for Spider-Man is kids a little younger than Spider-Man so that he is an aspirational figure, teaching them how to grow responsibly. Power can also mean privilege. This take makes the core concept so relevant to this moment in time that it feels necessary to me, like this is what the Spider-Man concept should be if it aspires to be its best. And on top of that, it's an incredibly fertile field for stories.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:19 PM on July 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
One thing that I think would be very important to try to convey, would be that Peter should credibly have had the power to actually stop what happens to Uncle Ben.
Conversly, unlike some of the suggestions above, the standard origin should be altered to make sure Peter isn't indirectly responsible for his uncle's death, because you don't want that "well he gave the cop some lip so no wonder his uncle got shot" dynamic to happen.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:06 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Conversly, unlike some of the suggestions above, the standard origin should be altered to make sure Peter isn't indirectly responsible for his uncle's death, because you don't want that "well he gave the cop some lip so no wonder his uncle got shot" dynamic to happen.
posted by MartinWisse at 12:06 AM on July 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
MartinWisse: "you don't want that "well he gave the cop some lip so no wonder his uncle got shot" dynamic to happen."
On the contrary, I think it should address that bullshit head on. Just because Peter was no angel doesn't give the police carte blanche. That's a crucially important aspect of the issue to get across.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:57 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
On the contrary, I think it should address that bullshit head on. Just because Peter was no angel doesn't give the police carte blanche. That's a crucially important aspect of the issue to get across.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:57 AM on July 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
I feel like a thread that talks about police misconduct and mentions Miles Morales should also bring up SCARLET, which I miss terribly.
posted by phearlez at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2015
posted by phearlez at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2015
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