Stephen Colbert: Almost as good as a woman
August 13, 2015 12:16 PM Subscribe
In an article for Glamour, Stephen Colbert acknowledges that late-night TV is a “sausagefest” and pledges to create a show that not only appeals to women, but also celebrates their voices.
When he was 10, Stephen’s father and two brothers died in a plane crash. His mother, Lorna Colbert, raised him and 8 remaining siblings. If one wanted to evaluate whether his feminist stance is real, a good place to start is the touching tribute that he shared when he returned to The Colbert Report after her funeral.
When he was 10, Stephen’s father and two brothers died in a plane crash. His mother, Lorna Colbert, raised him and 8 remaining siblings. If one wanted to evaluate whether his feminist stance is real, a good place to start is the touching tribute that he shared when he returned to The Colbert Report after her funeral.
06/19/13
At least I think that's right- with all the onions and dust in the room, it's a bit blurry.
posted by DGStieber at 12:29 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
At least I think that's right- with all the onions and dust in the room, it's a bit blurry.
posted by DGStieber at 12:29 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
stephen colbert is no friend to women
posted by thug unicorn at 12:33 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by thug unicorn at 12:33 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
odinsdream, thanks for that!
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:37 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 12:37 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
stephen colbert is no friend to women
Given that he has been frequently criticized for this in the past, I thought it was interesting that he was intentionally inclusive here:
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [55 favorites]
Given that he has been frequently criticized for this in the past, I thought it was interesting that he was intentionally inclusive here:
"Point is, I'm here for you, and that means I'm going to do my best to create a Late Show that not only appeals to women but also celebrates their voices. These days TV would have you believe that being a woman means sensually eating yogurt, looking for ways to feel confident on heavy days, and hunting for houses. But I'm going to make a show that truly respects women, because I know that there's more than one way to be one. Maybe you're a woman who likes women. Maybe you like women and men. Maybe you're a woman who's recently transitioned.Maybe he'll go on to make more offensive jokes, but maybe he's really taken some of that criticism to heart and is actively trying to make amends.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [55 favorites]
I mean, it's great that he intends to treat women like human beings on his talk show, but are we really so fucked up that he's supposed to get kudos for that? Shouldn't that just be a given?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:44 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:44 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
I don't know if declaring his intention to do this is the same as asking for kudos for doing it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:45 PM on August 13, 2015 [30 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:45 PM on August 13, 2015 [30 favorites]
Yes. Everyone has room for improvement and growth. I think the way his Colbert character emulated racism and transphobia without being outwardly super-racist or homophobic is a perfectly natural caricature of what he was trying to satirize and mock. I also agree that trans people are being treated as a "last vestige of people to abuse" and it doesn't help to promote that if the point is lost in the nuance of the satire, especially when the satire is nourished by a little bit of "natural" "well, trannies are kind of weird" under the hood.
posted by aydeejones at 12:46 PM on August 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 12:46 PM on August 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
are we really so fucked up that he's supposed to get kudos for that? Shouldn't that just be a given?
Yes?
posted by jedicus at 12:47 PM on August 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yes?
posted by jedicus at 12:47 PM on August 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
i.e. Colbert didn't go around making fun of "homos and negroes" because neither did Bill O'Reilly. But he shouldn't perpetuate the "last mile of hate" either. I don't think he's perfect but he is to be both praised for where he has done good and criticized where he hasn't
posted by aydeejones at 12:47 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 12:47 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Everyone has room for improvement and growth.
Has he directly apologized for the transphobic jokes he's made?
posted by desjardins at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Has he directly apologized for the transphobic jokes he's made?
posted by desjardins at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't feel like he gets any kudos for treating women like people on his show, but I do think it is important to have the members of the sausagefest calling it out for what it is. We're always asking dudes to check and be aware of their privilege and wield it to the benefit of people who lack it; well, that's what he's doing. He's aware, he's checking it, and he plans to use it to give a greater voice to people who have a hard time getting heard. No cookies, but it's work that needs doing. I'll watch a show that does this work before I'll watch one that doesn't.
What he gets kudos for is writing this sentence, which previously I would have thought could Only be generated on Metafilter:
Besides, it's not my place to mansplain to you about the manstitutionalized manvantages built into Americman manciety. That would make me look like a real manhole.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2015 [54 favorites]
What he gets kudos for is writing this sentence, which previously I would have thought could Only be generated on Metafilter:
Besides, it's not my place to mansplain to you about the manstitutionalized manvantages built into Americman manciety. That would make me look like a real manhole.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2015 [54 favorites]
While we're talking about sausages, check out the promo for Samantha Bee's upcoming TBS show. (I'm looking forward to both her and Colbert's new shows.)
posted by carrienation at 1:04 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by carrienation at 1:04 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
jon stewart is pretty much just as terrible when it comes to shitty quick easy transphobic jokes - is he excused with just playing a character too? seems to me that it's something the daily show accepted and fostered and that carried over to the colbert report. i hope stephen's new show can get rid of that influence.
posted by nadawi at 1:06 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:06 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
and i say this as someone who loveloveloves stewart and colbert, but i'm not here to hand out passes because they're almost always great.
posted by nadawi at 1:07 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:07 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
aydeejones: “I think the way his Colbert character emulated racism and transphobia without being outwardly super-racist or homophobic is a perfectly natural caricature of what he was trying to satirize and mock.”
Sorry, but that's really taking the easy way out. Colbert makes a lot of "aren't-conservatives-transphobic" jokes, sure, but that is by far not the only kind of transphobic joke he makes. For instance, the examples on the pages thug unicorn posted were enlightening, I think:
I think we have to be open about this: comedians have used trans people as cheap easy jokes for decades, and Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert have not been immune to that tendency. Yes, they have shown themselves more capable of seeing their own mistakes than most people, and we have room, I think, to hope that this is going to be shifting a bit (especially with Colbert going to a prime late-night show) – but we need to be honest about this: it wasn't just miscalculated satire. It was full-on bad stuff. I like Colbert, so I hope it gets better, but I can understand if people really have just given up.
posted by koeselitz at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2015 [18 favorites]
Sorry, but that's really taking the easy way out. Colbert makes a lot of "aren't-conservatives-transphobic" jokes, sure, but that is by far not the only kind of transphobic joke he makes. For instance, the examples on the pages thug unicorn posted were enlightening, I think:
Here’s a general rule of thumb I have: if you don’t know whether you’ve made a particular mistake more or less than 50 times, that’s not really a mistake. At that point, it’s something you do. For instance, how many times have I accidentally picked up a tranny hooker at a truck-stop? I wanna say it’s in the 50s, but it could be higher. I-I-i- guess what I’m saying is I’m nearsighted?That right there? That is absolutely not a "aren't-conservatives-transphobic" joke. It's a "mentioning-tranny-hookers-at-truckstops-is-inherently-funny" joke. At best it's a "ha-ha-conservatives-have-sex-with-trannies" joke. And that's... severely problematic. We're not talking about "nuances being lost in the satire" here. We're not really talking about satire at all, unless we mean satire of transgender people. And unfortunately that's not the only example of that that they give.
I think we have to be open about this: comedians have used trans people as cheap easy jokes for decades, and Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert have not been immune to that tendency. Yes, they have shown themselves more capable of seeing their own mistakes than most people, and we have room, I think, to hope that this is going to be shifting a bit (especially with Colbert going to a prime late-night show) – but we need to be honest about this: it wasn't just miscalculated satire. It was full-on bad stuff. I like Colbert, so I hope it gets better, but I can understand if people really have just given up.
posted by koeselitz at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2015 [18 favorites]
My previous comment was deleted. I suppose what I should have said was that if women or transgender folks (or anyone else who is currently marginalized in American culture) ever hope to have more influence and prominence, they can't expect to achieve their aims by working within the exist power structure.
Ending the "sausage fest" that is late night television isn't necessarily going to result in a more progressive culture. I think what is needed is to create a new, competing culture.
Look at who the talk show host is, and how "he" wields cultural power. It ain't pretty, and I don't know why women or anyone else would aspire to that position.
That is what I was trying to say.
posted by Nevin at 1:33 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ending the "sausage fest" that is late night television isn't necessarily going to result in a more progressive culture. I think what is needed is to create a new, competing culture.
Look at who the talk show host is, and how "he" wields cultural power. It ain't pretty, and I don't know why women or anyone else would aspire to that position.
That is what I was trying to say.
posted by Nevin at 1:33 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I just.cannot.imagine being widowed and losing 2 children and then still having 9 more children to raise. The tremendous amount of strength that would have taken is beyond what I can summon. I have two children and just getting through a divorce and their health challenges has been devastating. I'm glad he recognized his mom. Celebrities often say, "Thanks, Mom" in public and women sometimes tell the stories of their mothers, but we less often hear the details about the mothers of men.
This link has a Canadian video, but it is ET Canada, so you have been warned.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 1:37 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
This link has a Canadian video, but it is ET Canada, so you have been warned.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 1:37 PM on August 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think what is needed is to create a new, competing culture.
A different culture. A separate one. Segregated from the main culture, if you will. That's the ticket for being not treated like crap by everyone else.
posted by griphus at 1:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
A different culture. A separate one. Segregated from the main culture, if you will. That's the ticket for being not treated like crap by everyone else.
posted by griphus at 1:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
true equality happens when everyone can aspire to be just as mediocre or excellent as cis rich men. just because you don't see the value in late night talk shows doesn't mean that women shouldn't aspire to it if that's what they want to do.
posted by nadawi at 1:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [16 favorites]
You can destroy the master's house with the master's tools. You just gotta bash that house up!
posted by mmmbacon at 1:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mmmbacon at 1:41 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Look at who the talk show host is, and how "he" wields cultural power. It ain't pretty, and I don't know why women or anyone else would aspire to that position.
This comment makes literally no sense to me whatsoever. You...honestly can't understand why a woman or anyone else would want to be internationally beloved, with a strong hand in influencing the tone of comedy in a way that potentially revolutionizes and pervades the entire art, a la David Letterman?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:00 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
This comment makes literally no sense to me whatsoever. You...honestly can't understand why a woman or anyone else would want to be internationally beloved, with a strong hand in influencing the tone of comedy in a way that potentially revolutionizes and pervades the entire art, a la David Letterman?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:00 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
The notion that "women should be better than that" needs to die in every motherfucking fire. All of the fires. Forever.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:02 PM on August 13, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:02 PM on August 13, 2015 [23 favorites]
Nevin: "Ending the "sausage fest" that is late night television isn't necessarily going to result in a more progressive culture."
It'd be a hell of a step though.
posted by erratic meatsack at 2:08 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
It'd be a hell of a step though.
posted by erratic meatsack at 2:08 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'll watch a show that does this work before I'll watch one that doesn't.That's cool, but personally I'm not watching any of them. The networks have made it really clear that late night talk shows are not for me and that they assume that I'll watch anyway because what other choice do I have, and I have a choice to turn off the TV and do something else. I don't really care that he's "checking his privilege" and admitting that he's participating in a sausage-fest. I'll watch when it's no longer a sausage-fest. I'm done making excuses for a culture that excludes me.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:15 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Ending the "sausage fest" that is late night television isn't necessarily going to result in a more progressive culture."
Probably going to create a more representative one, though.
As for Colbert's commitment to feminism: I believe it is real. I also believe his understanding of just how deep and broad that commitment needs to go in order to be truly transformative is both flawed and evolving. Saying out loud "I intend to do this and be this in order to have this effect" is a hell of a lot better than angrily insisting that you've always been great for women and that people have no grounds to complain about you, which is the choice I see people taking a lot more often. I am eager to see how he lives that commitment in his next job.
posted by KathrynT at 2:16 PM on August 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
Probably going to create a more representative one, though.
As for Colbert's commitment to feminism: I believe it is real. I also believe his understanding of just how deep and broad that commitment needs to go in order to be truly transformative is both flawed and evolving. Saying out loud "I intend to do this and be this in order to have this effect" is a hell of a lot better than angrily insisting that you've always been great for women and that people have no grounds to complain about you, which is the choice I see people taking a lot more often. I am eager to see how he lives that commitment in his next job.
posted by KathrynT at 2:16 PM on August 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
There's no one step that will fix culture, or Western culture, or Western popular culture, or Western popular culture vis-a-vis TV, in one step. It's step-by-step or no steps at all.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:18 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:18 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ending the "sausage fest" that is late night television isn't necessarily going to result in a more progressive culture.
How it possible to make this assertion, given that it's never been tried? I mean...I guess that "necessarily" just barely lifts your statement out of the arguing-facts-that-cannot-possibly-ever-have-been-in-evidence category, but at the cost of making it nearly meaningless.
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:18 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
How it possible to make this assertion, given that it's never been tried? I mean...I guess that "necessarily" just barely lifts your statement out of the arguing-facts-that-cannot-possibly-ever-have-been-in-evidence category, but at the cost of making it nearly meaningless.
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:18 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wanted to write a nuanced description of how I feel about this thread but it really comes down to this
why the fuck should anyone do anything at all to change because no matter what it will never be good enough never be progressive enough
I probably couldn't find 1 of the people I know to say they even knew there was discrimination against women in media, "but look at the Kardashians"
Yeah maybe Colbert isn't the perfect lord and savior but at least he's made a statement saying he's at least aware of some of the issues. That's better than a majority of the people I know.
posted by M Edward at 2:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
why the fuck should anyone do anything at all to change because no matter what it will never be good enough never be progressive enough
I probably couldn't find 1 of the people I know to say they even knew there was discrimination against women in media, "but look at the Kardashians"
Yeah maybe Colbert isn't the perfect lord and savior but at least he's made a statement saying he's at least aware of some of the issues. That's better than a majority of the people I know.
posted by M Edward at 2:39 PM on August 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm frankly surprised anybody in this thread is citing bits from that article as if they were intended to be the least bit serious. Yes, he says "I'm going to do my best to create a Late Show that not only appeals to women but also celebrates their voices." He also says "Pooh and I definitely agree on the no-pants thing. As soon as I'm home, off they go—and I'm knuckle-deep in a pot of honey." and "I think this essay has proved that I have an authentic female perspective, because most of it was written by two female writers on my staff." There is no actual point being made here; it's an exercise in pure silliness.
(There is, I hasten to add, nothing at all wrong with pure silliness, and this is a fine example of the form. But trying to parse meaning out of it is silly.)
posted by Shmuel510 at 2:50 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
(There is, I hasten to add, nothing at all wrong with pure silliness, and this is a fine example of the form. But trying to parse meaning out of it is silly.)
posted by Shmuel510 at 2:50 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Making serious points while also making jokes is kind what Colbert's last show was all about.
posted by teponaztli at 2:54 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by teponaztli at 2:54 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
why the fuck should anyone do anything at all to change because no matter what it will never be good enough never be progressive enough
Because it's right. If you don't think it is, don't do it. But doing things based on other people's demands isn't the way to go, the number of people asking you to do bad shit is probably larger than the group asking you to do good.
“I’m not governed by fear of what other people say. I understand what my beliefs are. You start chasing perception, you’ve got a long life ahead of you.”
-Chip Kelly, football coach and sometimes a little bit of a philosopher.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:58 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Because it's right. If you don't think it is, don't do it. But doing things based on other people's demands isn't the way to go, the number of people asking you to do bad shit is probably larger than the group asking you to do good.
“I’m not governed by fear of what other people say. I understand what my beliefs are. You start chasing perception, you’ve got a long life ahead of you.”
-Chip Kelly, football coach and sometimes a little bit of a philosopher.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:58 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Making serious points while also making jokes is kind what Colbert's last show was all about.
Certainly, and satire is a fine form, too. But this article wasn't an example of it.
posted by Shmuel510 at 3:07 PM on August 13, 2015
Certainly, and satire is a fine form, too. But this article wasn't an example of it.
posted by Shmuel510 at 3:07 PM on August 13, 2015
I agree with you completely Drinky but the beginning of this thread felt like (to me) "here's something relatively good that someone relatively powerful is doing but it's not good enough off with his head" and to me that is absolutely ridiculous.
There are large groups of people supporting a man who's trying to be President that is unabashedly racist and misogynistic. But hey, let's go over Colbert's history with a fine tooth comb, who by most accounts is not a terrible human being, just not as perfect as we expect him to be, let us count the ways he is just awful.
It's about ethics in liberalism or something.
posted by M Edward at 3:11 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
There are large groups of people supporting a man who's trying to be President that is unabashedly racist and misogynistic. But hey, let's go over Colbert's history with a fine tooth comb, who by most accounts is not a terrible human being, just not as perfect as we expect him to be, let us count the ways he is just awful.
It's about ethics in liberalism or something.
posted by M Edward at 3:11 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
Well the alternative is looking at someone and saying "he's great!" and then not wanting to hear any possible criticism, even if it might affect people in important ways. Criticism doesn't have to be hostile, and there is such a thing as constructive criticism. You don't have to love literally everything someone does in order to appreciate them.
posted by teponaztli at 3:13 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by teponaztli at 3:13 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
As long as you reject the good because it is not perfect, no progress will be made at all.
(as soon as I decided to say this, so did M Edward and q cubed)
posted by tommyD at 3:13 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
(as soon as I decided to say this, so did M Edward and q cubed)
posted by tommyD at 3:13 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Folks, if you want to discuss how the thread is going, take it to MetaTalk. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:24 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:24 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well the alternative is looking at someone and saying "he's great!" and then not wanting to hear any possible criticism, even if it might affect people in important ways.
Um, no? There are like infinite alternatives along a spectrum, of which that is only one. There's also the alternative of saying "hey, this is an encouraging statement, coming from someone who seems to be sincerely engaged. That said, if he wants to show truly sincere engagement on this front it's super-important for him to address his tendency to go for the lazy transphobic joke."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:25 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Um, no? There are like infinite alternatives along a spectrum, of which that is only one. There's also the alternative of saying "hey, this is an encouraging statement, coming from someone who seems to be sincerely engaged. That said, if he wants to show truly sincere engagement on this front it's super-important for him to address his tendency to go for the lazy transphobic joke."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:25 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
(If the spectrum runs from "reject all who are imperfect" to "worship uncritically forever," that is)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:27 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:27 PM on August 13, 2015
Oh I think I misstated my point, because that's what I was driving at. I just meant that "perfect is the enemy of good" doesn't necessarily apply here.
posted by teponaztli at 3:38 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by teponaztli at 3:38 PM on August 13, 2015
the hyperbole is insane from the "perfect is the enemy of the good" crowd. does stephen colbert seem to generally get "it" for a bunch of flavors of "it" - yes absolutely. does he have further to go? my god yes. trans people, genderqueer people, and allies of those groups shouldn't just sit silently and hope maybe some day our supposed progressive allies start treating us like people. agitating against a purposeful blind spot of a very influential famous dude isn't silencing him or removing reasons for him to be progressive, it's asking him to do better. if he said one sorta transphobic thing and people were tearing him from limb to limb, sure, maybe i'd wonder if we should tone it down a bit - but this is a repeated thing, over a period of years, that he just hasn't found important enough to fix in himself yet. if people want to throw him a parade for his feminism, the way he's treated some women is going to come up. if hearing literally any criticism of a progressive rich white guy, no matter how nicely couched it is, is too much for you, well, that's on you.
posted by nadawi at 4:04 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 4:04 PM on August 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
I didn't realize how much I missed having Colbert on TV until his farewell on Jon Stewart's final show. I can't wait for his show and Samantha Bee's to start.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:08 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:08 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's cool, but personally I'm not watching any of them. The networks have made it really clear that late night talk shows are not for me and that they assume that I'll watch anyway because what other choice do I have, and I have a choice to turn off the TV and do something else. I don't really care that he's "checking his privilege" and admitting that he's participating in a sausage-fest. I'll watch when it's no longer a sausage-fest. I'm done making excuses for a culture that excludes me
This is a huge part of why I have almost never paid money to see a movie in the 15 years since I turned 30. Now that I am firmly a middle-aged woman, there's even less (not even taking into account quality or appeal to my individual tastes) that includes me in its intended audience.
Not that I think we should discourage this active re-assessment of how casting, hiring and writing decisions of people like Colbert by people like Colbert. I think that is a good thing and a necessary thing for positive change. But if the people who have been harmed specifically by his jokes, or by the industry's marginalization of them, for their entire life are still not interested in him or the product, that is just as fine, reasonable and necessary a decision.
posted by crush-onastick at 4:12 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a huge part of why I have almost never paid money to see a movie in the 15 years since I turned 30. Now that I am firmly a middle-aged woman, there's even less (not even taking into account quality or appeal to my individual tastes) that includes me in its intended audience.
Not that I think we should discourage this active re-assessment of how casting, hiring and writing decisions of people like Colbert by people like Colbert. I think that is a good thing and a necessary thing for positive change. But if the people who have been harmed specifically by his jokes, or by the industry's marginalization of them, for their entire life are still not interested in him or the product, that is just as fine, reasonable and necessary a decision.
posted by crush-onastick at 4:12 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
I can't think of any criticism I would make of the critics of Colbert that wouldn't boil down to a tone argument. There is some nuance in the satire and the character, but the character is there to serve the audience. If your ironic transphobia or whatever the ironic purpose was is upsetting the people it's supposed to be defending through the twists and turns of satire...well, you fucked up, Stephen! People are gonna tell you!
Honestly, from what I know of him as a person based on what is out there about him, I think he knows this and does not resent the criticism.
I didn't know Sam Bee was doing a show, I'm looking forward to it now. I don't think she has been on the top of her game the last few years on The Daily Show, just too long doing mostly the same stuff. Will love to see what she comes up with when she has more control and creative space. John Oliver really surprised me with what a great show he was able to create when he had the chance, and I already liked him too.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:13 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Honestly, from what I know of him as a person based on what is out there about him, I think he knows this and does not resent the criticism.
I didn't know Sam Bee was doing a show, I'm looking forward to it now. I don't think she has been on the top of her game the last few years on The Daily Show, just too long doing mostly the same stuff. Will love to see what she comes up with when she has more control and creative space. John Oliver really surprised me with what a great show he was able to create when he had the chance, and I already liked him too.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:13 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
the idea of trans women as tricksters is one that is responsible for the murder of a giant number of trans women. until they stop dying in such huge numbers no jokes about trans women tricking people are ok. if you don't think those jokes are that bad then i suggest you spend some time learning about the women we've lost this year.
posted by nadawi at 4:56 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 4:56 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
and you know - all these allusions to violence from the people who think we've gone too far in criticizing colbert are pretty fucking unseemly when you consider who is actually in danger from actual violence.
posted by nadawi at 4:57 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 4:57 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think criticizing people like Colbert is really important, I just hate when criticism tips over into the idea that X is inherently tainted by past bad actions so no amount of progress short of burning it down and starting over is worth discussing.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:59 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:59 PM on August 13, 2015
has that happened here? besides people who are just done with the late night sausage fest all together, i'm just not seeing it. i'm seeing a lot of people hoping his new show is better on this topic and that he puts his writing/hiring/guests/jokes where is mouth is in this piece.
posted by nadawi at 5:00 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 5:00 PM on August 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
It really depends on the comic. For Colbert, he was asking permission from the audience to, for the purposes of satire, say things that audience would find abhorrent or wrong in other contexts. It wasn't a deal with the audience for a South Park or Family Guy style attempt to be outrageous just for the sake of being outrageous. It was a deal to have the real punchline of the joke be the conservative character he created and the people that character was satirizing. The audience is within it's rights to give feedback when that deal is broken that treats Colbert as if there was no deal in the first place and he is just saying hateful stuff, because to their perception he broke it first when he made a joke where trans people were the punchline. The sense of betrayal gets to people.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:01 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 5:01 PM on August 13, 2015
I can't speak for anyone else here but the only criticism I have had a problem with was the implication that women shouldn't want to become late-night hosts in the first place because... well I'm still not sure what the reasons were but it seemed to be that Colbert was SO abhorrent that he somehow made the entire enterprise unworthy?
That was the criticism that seemed over the top, burn it down and salt the earth, to me. Criticism of his transphobic jokes is right the hell on. Not watching late night at all because you don't feel it's for you? Right the hell on. Reserving judgment until he actually is on the air and making good on this pledge? Completely warranted.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:07 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
That was the criticism that seemed over the top, burn it down and salt the earth, to me. Criticism of his transphobic jokes is right the hell on. Not watching late night at all because you don't feel it's for you? Right the hell on. Reserving judgment until he actually is on the air and making good on this pledge? Completely warranted.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:07 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
if people want to throw him a parade for his feminism
Also along parallel lines to "nobody's gone overboard in criticism" here, could we please maybe also acknowledge that zero parades have been thrown and zero cookies have been baked in this thread? The most effusive praise I can see is "I believe [his feminism] is real," and "I can't wait for his show to start [and also a completely different show starring Samantha Bee]"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:18 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also along parallel lines to "nobody's gone overboard in criticism" here, could we please maybe also acknowledge that zero parades have been thrown and zero cookies have been baked in this thread? The most effusive praise I can see is "I believe [his feminism] is real," and "I can't wait for his show to start [and also a completely different show starring Samantha Bee]"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:18 PM on August 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
why the fuck should anyone do anything at all to change because no matter what it will never be good enough never be progressive enough
this and a bunch of comments that came after seemed to suggest that if we didn't applaud him without reservation than we are turning good progressives away because there's no point to be progressive (besides, i guess, not being a shit person). if you don't read that as asking for some sort of kudos/cookies/parade to be offered to yet another white man finding feminism, then i think we have to disagree.
posted by nadawi at 5:24 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
this and a bunch of comments that came after seemed to suggest that if we didn't applaud him without reservation than we are turning good progressives away because there's no point to be progressive (besides, i guess, not being a shit person). if you don't read that as asking for some sort of kudos/cookies/parade to be offered to yet another white man finding feminism, then i think we have to disagree.
posted by nadawi at 5:24 PM on August 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
People are always talking about how progressives are the biggest enemy of progressives, and it really just comes across as a great way to casually skip over having to make real, personal changes that might go in hand with a more inclusive society. People seem to take criticism as absolute, that if you object to what someone says you're saying they're a bad person.
I mean
(I realize that nobody's making that argument explicitly here, but some statements do seem to give that impression on a cursory read.)
Then give it more than a cursory read! If they're not making that argument, maybe it's because there's a nuance to what they're saying that you're just not seeing.
posted by teponaztli at 5:53 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mean
(I realize that nobody's making that argument explicitly here, but some statements do seem to give that impression on a cursory read.)
Then give it more than a cursory read! If they're not making that argument, maybe it's because there's a nuance to what they're saying that you're just not seeing.
posted by teponaztli at 5:53 PM on August 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think criticizing people like Colbert is really important, I just hate when criticism tips over into the idea that X is inherently tainted by past bad actions so no amount of progress short of burning it down and starting over is worth discussing.
He's not "inherently tainted." Nor has he made any "progress." Again, has he directly apologized for making trans women the butt of jokes? (Not satire. Jokes.)
If someone makes a statement about how much he likes feet, but keeps stepping on my foot, that is not progress. It will be progress if he 1) stops making "jokes" about trans people and 2) apologizes for past jokes. We'll see. I like Colbert otherwise, but if he continues to make trans jokes then I can't watch his show. It'd be like drinking a poop shake.
If you [general you] are cis, this doesn't directly affect you. I don't know why a cis person would get upset about trans people who do get upset. As nadawi points out above, this is not academic or abstract to trans women. This is frequently a matter of life and death. If you wouldn't tolerate rape jokes, then you should not tolerate trans jokes.
posted by desjardins at 5:54 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
He's not "inherently tainted." Nor has he made any "progress." Again, has he directly apologized for making trans women the butt of jokes? (Not satire. Jokes.)
If someone makes a statement about how much he likes feet, but keeps stepping on my foot, that is not progress. It will be progress if he 1) stops making "jokes" about trans people and 2) apologizes for past jokes. We'll see. I like Colbert otherwise, but if he continues to make trans jokes then I can't watch his show. It'd be like drinking a poop shake.
If you [general you] are cis, this doesn't directly affect you. I don't know why a cis person would get upset about trans people who do get upset. As nadawi points out above, this is not academic or abstract to trans women. This is frequently a matter of life and death. If you wouldn't tolerate rape jokes, then you should not tolerate trans jokes.
posted by desjardins at 5:54 PM on August 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Right, I was not specific enough - I was only addressing the trans issue.
posted by desjardins at 6:26 PM on August 13, 2015
posted by desjardins at 6:26 PM on August 13, 2015
Has he directly apologized for the transphobic jokes he's made?
So far as I know, no, he hasn't. It would be great if he did. But I think it still counts as progress if he does actually does better in future even without a public apology.
posted by uosuaq at 7:57 PM on August 13, 2015
So far as I know, no, he hasn't. It would be great if he did. But I think it still counts as progress if he does actually does better in future even without a public apology.
posted by uosuaq at 7:57 PM on August 13, 2015
if you don't read that as asking for some sort of kudos/cookies/parade to be offered to yet another white man finding feminism, then i think we have to disagree.
I guess so. At the very least, we seem to have been to very different parades.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:44 PM on August 13, 2015
I guess so. At the very least, we seem to have been to very different parades.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:44 PM on August 13, 2015
qcubed: "It's a similar problem we see with other comedians and comics, from Stewart, to Louis CK, to Patton Oswalt, and while I'm not going to say that they're above reproach, I find it difficult to really agree with the reactions that border on, "They are terrible people and they should feel bad and you should too if you like them." (I realize that nobody's making that argument explicitly here, but some statements do seem to give that impression on a cursory read.)"
This is sort of ancillary to your point, so forgive me, but - I think it's important to point out here that you're exaggerating what people have said here in a way that is unhealthily stereotypical of the way we cis people react to things being raised as issues.
The only thing people have said here is that they have problems with Colbert (and Stewart) and that they think these are real problems. The most strident statement of this was a blunt "stephen colbert is no friend to women." Even that is coming nowhere close to saying "they should feel bad and you should feel bad if you like them." Reading people as saying that anyone who likes these things is a bad person just personalizes the issue and turns it into a battlefield - and that, in turn, makes it impossible for anyone to express any negative opinion of anything.
If someone says "I have a problem with the way Stephen Colbert talks about trans people," and you respond "it sounds a lot like you think I'm a bad person for liking him," they're usually going to shut up, because you've labelled them an accusative aggressor. And any worthwhile conversation about that that we could have had disappears. This is something that I think happens all the time with us cis men, because it makes us uncomfortable to confront our privilege, so generally it's easier for us to respond to situations where we're asked to do so by saying "well, it sounds like you're accusing me of something, and I don't like that much, so maybe we can just not talk about this please."
I have not given up on Stephen Colbert. I like him. I am hopeful. Most of the things I think we're really egregious - and they were egregious, using "tranny" as a punchline (never mind "truck stop tranny hookers," ugh) is never okay - happened five or more years ago, so I like to think he's improving. But it is totally fine if people have a huge problem with him, if the crud he said was more than they really feel like putting up with, if they have given up and said "eh, screw that guy." People can feel that way if they want. We might even disagree with me about him. I'm not going to take their disagreement as any sort of categorical political "if you like this then you're a bad person" line in the sand unless they explicitly say "if you like this you're a bad person." Until then, they're just expressing their opinion, it's a perfectly fine opinion, and it is not threatening to me as a person - and I'm not going to treat it as such.
(And even if they do say "liking this is bad, and you should not," frankly that's okay too. It's no skin off my nose. I have a lot of privileges, and one way to use those wisely is by shutting up and listening when people choose to tell me in a reasonable way that the things I like are problematic.)
posted by koeselitz at 12:24 AM on August 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
This is sort of ancillary to your point, so forgive me, but - I think it's important to point out here that you're exaggerating what people have said here in a way that is unhealthily stereotypical of the way we cis people react to things being raised as issues.
The only thing people have said here is that they have problems with Colbert (and Stewart) and that they think these are real problems. The most strident statement of this was a blunt "stephen colbert is no friend to women." Even that is coming nowhere close to saying "they should feel bad and you should feel bad if you like them." Reading people as saying that anyone who likes these things is a bad person just personalizes the issue and turns it into a battlefield - and that, in turn, makes it impossible for anyone to express any negative opinion of anything.
If someone says "I have a problem with the way Stephen Colbert talks about trans people," and you respond "it sounds a lot like you think I'm a bad person for liking him," they're usually going to shut up, because you've labelled them an accusative aggressor. And any worthwhile conversation about that that we could have had disappears. This is something that I think happens all the time with us cis men, because it makes us uncomfortable to confront our privilege, so generally it's easier for us to respond to situations where we're asked to do so by saying "well, it sounds like you're accusing me of something, and I don't like that much, so maybe we can just not talk about this please."
I have not given up on Stephen Colbert. I like him. I am hopeful. Most of the things I think we're really egregious - and they were egregious, using "tranny" as a punchline (never mind "truck stop tranny hookers," ugh) is never okay - happened five or more years ago, so I like to think he's improving. But it is totally fine if people have a huge problem with him, if the crud he said was more than they really feel like putting up with, if they have given up and said "eh, screw that guy." People can feel that way if they want. We might even disagree with me about him. I'm not going to take their disagreement as any sort of categorical political "if you like this then you're a bad person" line in the sand unless they explicitly say "if you like this you're a bad person." Until then, they're just expressing their opinion, it's a perfectly fine opinion, and it is not threatening to me as a person - and I'm not going to treat it as such.
(And even if they do say "liking this is bad, and you should not," frankly that's okay too. It's no skin off my nose. I have a lot of privileges, and one way to use those wisely is by shutting up and listening when people choose to tell me in a reasonable way that the things I like are problematic.)
posted by koeselitz at 12:24 AM on August 14, 2015 [10 favorites]
His promoting football, dancing in a gold suit and teeth was amusing, Paul?
posted by clavdivs at 2:11 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 2:11 AM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Who is Paul and what are you talking about?
Thanks koeselitz, that was well said.
posted by desjardins at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2015
Thanks koeselitz, that was well said.
posted by desjardins at 9:53 AM on August 14, 2015
Is it just me, or should this count as a derail, worthy as it is, but maybe worthy of its own thread as well perhaps?
posted by C.A.S. at 12:30 PM on August 14, 2015
posted by C.A.S. at 12:30 PM on August 14, 2015
This GQ piece on Colbert is really great. Whatever issues I and others may have with his comedy sometimes, I've never doubted that he's a very moral man who's a pretty serious thinker, and this article puts some of that on display. A few quotes I especially liked:
This actually illuminates some things about his comedy for me:
And jeeze, but I've got to sit with this one for a while:
posted by yasaman at 11:31 AM on August 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
This actually illuminates some things about his comedy for me:
He said he trained himself, not just onstage but every day in life, even in his dream states, to steer toward fear rather than away from it. “I like to do things that are publicly embarrassing,” he said, “to feel the embarrassment touch me and sink into me and then be gone. I like getting on elevators and singing too loudly in that small space. The feeling you feel is almost like a vapor. The discomfort and the wishing that it would end that comes around you. I would do things like that and just breathe it in.” He stopped and took in a deep yogic breath, then slowly shook his head. “Nope, can't kill me. This thing can't kill me.”On his reaction to the loss of two of his brothers and his father as a child:
That day after he got back from Michigan, we eventually got around to the question of how it could possibly be that he suffered the losses he's suffered and somehow arrived here. It's not just that he doesn't exhibit any of the anger or open-woundedness of so many other comedians; it's that he appears to be so genuinely grounded and joyful.
He sat silently for a while and then smiled. “Yeeeahhhh,” he said. “I'm not angry. I'm not. I'm mystified, I'll tell you that. But I'm not angry.”
And jeeze, but I've got to sit with this one for a while:
He was tracing an arc on the table with his fingers and speaking with such deliberation and care. “I was left alone a lot after Dad and the boys died.... And it was just me and Mom for a long time,” he said. “And by her example am I not bitter. By her example. She was not. Broken, yes. Bitter, no.” Maybe, he said, she had to be that for him. He has said this before—that even in those days of unremitting grief, she drew on her faith that the only way to not be swallowed by sorrow, to in fact recognize that our sorrow is inseparable from our joy, is to always understand our suffering, ourselves, in the light of eternity. What is this in the light of eternity? Imagine being a parent so filled with your own pain, and yet still being able to pass that on to your son.
“It was a very healthy reciprocal acceptance of suffering,” he said. “Which does not mean being defeated by suffering. Acceptance is not defeat. Acceptance is just awareness.” He smiled in anticipation of the callback: “ ‘You gotta learn to love the bomb,’ ” he said. “Boy, did I have a bomb when I was 10. That was quite an explosion. And I learned to love it. So that's why. Maybe, I don't know. That might be why you don't see me as someone angry and working out my demons onstage. It's that I love the thing that I most wish had not happened.”
I love the thing that I most wish had not happened.
I asked him if he could help me understand that better, and he described a letter from Tolkien in response to a priest who had questioned whether Tolkien's mythos was sufficiently doctrinaire, since it treated death not as a punishment for the sin of the fall but as a gift. “Tolkien says, in a letter back: ‘What punishments of God are not gifts?’ ” Colbert knocked his knuckles on the table. “ ‘What punishments of God are not gifts?’ ” he said again. His eyes were filled with tears. “So it would be ungrateful not to take everything with gratitude. It doesn't mean you want it. I can hold both of those ideas in my head.”
posted by yasaman at 11:31 AM on August 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
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posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:26 PM on August 13, 2015