Social Justice Witcher
August 20, 2015 11:50 AM Subscribe
I wanted to see if instead I could play a character whose interests were a bit less tedious than being some empty, unquestionable Nietzschean superman. I wanted to test the so-called freedom of what is clearly the most groundbreaking open world game of our generation, to see if I could reject the usual triple-A heroism and play a character who is sensitive, humble, committed to social justice rather than self-aggrandisement. I wanted to play a male character who could be an actual ally to the empowerment of his female co-stars, a-la the new Mad Max, rather than just the tough guy who saves them. I wanted to immerse myself in this world committed to freeing its inhabitants from their miserable feudal bondage, rather than just saving the day and making sure that the system can survive.
I wanted to play a hero that Gamergate couldn’t wank over.
The first Witcher contract I take on, to slay a Griffin, is given extra importance not just because the man with the contract has information I need – you also see the Griffin preying on innocent villagers in the countryside.
That Griffin is a rare and most likely endangered species, while the villagers are no more than walking sides of ham.
posted by biffa at 12:12 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
That Griffin is a rare and most likely endangered species, while the villagers are no more than walking sides of ham.
posted by biffa at 12:12 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
That Griffin is a rare and most likely endangered species, while the villagers are no more than walking sides of ham.
Say what you will about the tenets of Murder Hobos, Dude, at least its an ethos.
posted by nubs at 12:19 PM on August 20, 2015 [23 favorites]
Say what you will about the tenets of Murder Hobos, Dude, at least its an ethos.
posted by nubs at 12:19 PM on August 20, 2015 [23 favorites]
I tried to play through The Witcher 3 as an anarcho-feminist. It didn’t work.
I tried to play through Bioshock as an anarcho-feminist. It didn’t work.
I tried to play through Dark Souls as an anarcho-feminist. It didn’t work.
I tried to play through Call of Duty: Black Ops II as an anarcho-feminist. It didn’t work.
I tried to play through Euro Truck Simulator 2 as an anarcho-feminist. It... worked!
posted by demiurge at 12:32 PM on August 20, 2015 [39 favorites]
I tried to play through Bioshock as an anarcho-feminist. It didn’t work.
I tried to play through Dark Souls as an anarcho-feminist. It didn’t work.
I tried to play through Call of Duty: Black Ops II as an anarcho-feminist. It didn’t work.
I tried to play through Euro Truck Simulator 2 as an anarcho-feminist. It... worked!
posted by demiurge at 12:32 PM on August 20, 2015 [39 favorites]
This is really deadpan satire, right?
posted by Sangermaine at 12:36 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 12:36 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sangermaine:
Though it never directly intended to give a radical option and fails to truly offer one to the player (as this joke experiment hopefully demonstrates), it makes groundbreaking advances in the relationship between gameplay and writing that show what the platform is becoming capable of.
posted by Phyltre at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2015
Though it never directly intended to give a radical option and fails to truly offer one to the player (as this joke experiment hopefully demonstrates), it makes groundbreaking advances in the relationship between gameplay and writing that show what the platform is becoming capable of.
posted by Phyltre at 12:44 PM on August 20, 2015
the two previous Witcher games (which I haven’t played)
That explains why he thought it might not be a complete waste of time to attempt this, joke experiment or not. CD Projekt Red has displayed a pretty ghastly misogynistic streak in the writing of the previous two games (ugh, in the first game you can literally collect porny 'romance cards' as achievements for bedding the female characters), and though they've gotten somewhat better, the notion of playing through this game as an anarcho-feminist is ridiculous.
posted by axiom at 1:04 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
That explains why he thought it might not be a complete waste of time to attempt this, joke experiment or not. CD Projekt Red has displayed a pretty ghastly misogynistic streak in the writing of the previous two games (ugh, in the first game you can literally collect porny 'romance cards' as achievements for bedding the female characters), and though they've gotten somewhat better, the notion of playing through this game as an anarcho-feminist is ridiculous.
posted by axiom at 1:04 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Could you imagine a game that gives true social justice options, with an open mind about gender and a fair treatment of race, but then also gives the standard gamergate-approved options as well? I believe that this would actually be a worse game than one that was only stereotypical and bad, because it would move from "unthinkingly evil" to "thinkingly evil."
And how heavy-handed and over-the-top would a Paragon / Renegade or Light Side / Dark Side system feel that was based partially on sexism? Where if you really wanted to unlock the most powerful lightening attack or final moves - you had to be sexist? I don't mind murdering, stealing, and general Videogame Bad Guy Violence, but like Howfar said two days ago - "Misogynist fiction is real misogyny. Violent fiction is not real violence. Next question please."
posted by rebent at 1:19 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
And how heavy-handed and over-the-top would a Paragon / Renegade or Light Side / Dark Side system feel that was based partially on sexism? Where if you really wanted to unlock the most powerful lightening attack or final moves - you had to be sexist? I don't mind murdering, stealing, and general Videogame Bad Guy Violence, but like Howfar said two days ago - "Misogynist fiction is real misogyny. Violent fiction is not real violence. Next question please."
posted by rebent at 1:19 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Axiom, he Witcher games may have a history that would point rather directly against this sort of play, but they're still put forth (by some) as the best current example of a sandbox game, intended to let you play as you choose.
It seems to me that the point of the experiment was precisely to take a game that you *wouldn't* expect to be friendly to this sort of play and see what happens when you try it. The author discusses many ways that implicit assumptions and gameplay design choices limit your options, then concludes that, after all, any game has to constrain your choices somehow, but wouldn't it be neat if game design could try to be open to a least a *bit* wider range of choices.
posted by Four Ds at 1:26 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
It seems to me that the point of the experiment was precisely to take a game that you *wouldn't* expect to be friendly to this sort of play and see what happens when you try it. The author discusses many ways that implicit assumptions and gameplay design choices limit your options, then concludes that, after all, any game has to constrain your choices somehow, but wouldn't it be neat if game design could try to be open to a least a *bit* wider range of choices.
posted by Four Ds at 1:26 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
CD Projekt Red has displayed a pretty ghastly misogynistic streak in the writing of the previous two games
I've only read the first few books of the source material, but it ain't much better.
posted by mayonnaises at 1:27 PM on August 20, 2015
I've only read the first few books of the source material, but it ain't much better.
posted by mayonnaises at 1:27 PM on August 20, 2015
Geralt is a witcher, a professional monster hunter from a reclusive male-only school of magical mercenaries. All witchers are genetically modified as children, which gives them significant strength, as well the ability to cast basic magic spells and to recover from diseases and toxins far better than normal humans. They have yellow eyes as a result of this modification, a physical trait which makes them easily identifiable. Many common folk hate witchers, and I passed much of the game with peasants hurling casual abuse at me as I rode through their villages.
The world in which Geralt operates is famously brutal, but it is characterized by different layers of nastiness.
The best part is that there's already a genderflipped counterpart of this setting, and it's a manga (and anime). I won't say that Japanese media don't have their own problems with sexism, but if anyone's in for a shonen manga in which the 95% of the cast are nonsexualized women, they can give Claymore a try.
posted by sukeban at 1:34 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
The world in which Geralt operates is famously brutal, but it is characterized by different layers of nastiness.
The best part is that there's already a genderflipped counterpart of this setting, and it's a manga (and anime). I won't say that Japanese media don't have their own problems with sexism, but if anyone's in for a shonen manga in which the 95% of the cast are nonsexualized women, they can give Claymore a try.
posted by sukeban at 1:34 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Haven't finished W3 yet. A few things to consider though. (First...It's fantasy.)
Women are the only ones who can be sorceresses, and they can choose to make themselves look how they want... which turns out to be beautiful. Triss, the one sorceress is supposed to be only 33, while Yen is supposed to be over 100, as is the main character Geralt... though both still hale and hearty. So Triss is sort of a juvenile compared to them, which explains some of her actions.
Also, these three characters have known each other for a while and have had experiences together. Geralt has scars, but he's a well-built, good looking guy who, as a witcher, is also STERILE and unable to contract or spread diseases such as STDs. On top of that, he has bad ass weapons, can do magic, and has a storied history of killing horrible deadly monsters. All in all, I can see why he would be pretty popular with the ladies... for a fling or a more long term thing.
There's a character/vendor who is male but dresses in women's clothes and makeup. Geralt is sort of flummoxed when he meets him and interacts with him, but there's nothing negative said about it. And this guy runs an established business in a village where apparently they accept his lifestyle.
There's also a man you meet who was outcast for falling in love with another man, and you can help him out and avenge him.
There is one sick, evil guy who "collects" prostitutes and is a horrible evil person. But you can kill him on the spot. There's likely going to be some consequence to me doing that down the line, but throughout the game it's clear that Geralt has a sense of looking out for the oppressed, children included as well as male and female victims of violence and wrongdoing. There are choices where you can let that stuff go, but IMO the game really steers you towards being a pretty honorable, decent hearted person overall.
On top of all this, it's written in a way that does not shove the grim dark in your face a la GRRM, but instead more naturally. It's not the most enlightened progressive entertainment I've ever experienced, but part of that is that the conflict and choices are based around trying to do the right thing in a setting where things aren't all that rosy.
And Ciri, Geralt's missing adult "daughter" who he's searching for, is a badass herself. You get bits and pieces of time playing as her through flashbacks. She also has superpowers.
I played W1 and it was embarrassingly sexist in a 12 year old kid kind of way, though a decent game. I tried W2, but the intro was Looooooong and very talky and the combat was just not for me.
Really enjoying W3.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 1:51 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Women are the only ones who can be sorceresses, and they can choose to make themselves look how they want... which turns out to be beautiful. Triss, the one sorceress is supposed to be only 33, while Yen is supposed to be over 100, as is the main character Geralt... though both still hale and hearty. So Triss is sort of a juvenile compared to them, which explains some of her actions.
Also, these three characters have known each other for a while and have had experiences together. Geralt has scars, but he's a well-built, good looking guy who, as a witcher, is also STERILE and unable to contract or spread diseases such as STDs. On top of that, he has bad ass weapons, can do magic, and has a storied history of killing horrible deadly monsters. All in all, I can see why he would be pretty popular with the ladies... for a fling or a more long term thing.
There's a character/vendor who is male but dresses in women's clothes and makeup. Geralt is sort of flummoxed when he meets him and interacts with him, but there's nothing negative said about it. And this guy runs an established business in a village where apparently they accept his lifestyle.
There's also a man you meet who was outcast for falling in love with another man, and you can help him out and avenge him.
There is one sick, evil guy who "collects" prostitutes and is a horrible evil person. But you can kill him on the spot. There's likely going to be some consequence to me doing that down the line, but throughout the game it's clear that Geralt has a sense of looking out for the oppressed, children included as well as male and female victims of violence and wrongdoing. There are choices where you can let that stuff go, but IMO the game really steers you towards being a pretty honorable, decent hearted person overall.
On top of all this, it's written in a way that does not shove the grim dark in your face a la GRRM, but instead more naturally. It's not the most enlightened progressive entertainment I've ever experienced, but part of that is that the conflict and choices are based around trying to do the right thing in a setting where things aren't all that rosy.
And Ciri, Geralt's missing adult "daughter" who he's searching for, is a badass herself. You get bits and pieces of time playing as her through flashbacks. She also has superpowers.
I played W1 and it was embarrassingly sexist in a 12 year old kid kind of way, though a decent game. I tried W2, but the intro was Looooooong and very talky and the combat was just not for me.
Really enjoying W3.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 1:51 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
...I tried to keep those ideas of money and exchange and autonomy in mind as I freed numerous entrepreneurs through the world. But ultimately it was all done in good faith, as well as a sense of resignation that there was no way for me to guarantee helping cottage industries was going to help the workers. There were very rarely apprentices, which made each smithy and merchant’s shop a kind of Ayn Rand utopia in which the only visible labour is that of the brilliant entrepreneur, the source of all value and creativity. This, though subtle, was for me one of the blandest features of the game, because it is an accidental trope rather than a philosophical decision.This is fascinating to me. On one hand, its sophomoric to call a medieval blacksmith an entrepreneur, on the other hand it is an incisive critique of NPC identity.
Artisans are interesting in that they and their tools can sometimes form a going concern. In games this makes them convenient NPCs because they can simultaneously represent an anchor for interaction and a plausible explanation for how certain services are rendered. Even in this case though, the blacksmith as NPC is a synecdoche for the complex of relations which allow their work to proceed, not to mention efficiencies achieved by having assistants.
Other, more complicated means of production are often elided from games entirely. The easiest way to do this is to introduce a merchant NPC who, with varying levels of plausibility, can justify more complicated goods being available than the capacities of the local NPCs would indicate. Merchants also offer another useful feature for game designers in that they can act as a broker for goods ostensibly produced by other NPCs. For example, a player might only interact with a Hunter regarding a beast terrorizing the forest, but buy venison (procured by the hunter) from a merchant at any time.
This, as the quote suggests, results in a situation where most of the NPCs that a player has economic interactions with will be somewhat bourgeois. As this situation emerged from strategies by game designers to limit the complexity of their game worlds, it seems like now is a great time to revisit the implications.
posted by ethansr at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
The original Witcher game was laughable when it came to gender relations. You actually got a trading card with a nude picture of the women that Geralt just made it with for your collection. Though I think some of this was to cover up the limitations of the engine being unable to handle a decent sex scene, which frankly are always cringy even in the best of games.
The Witcher 3 is much less misogynistic in my opinion. There is a difference between depicting misogyny and endorsing it, and I think that CD Projekt Red has learned a great deal as they have moved forward with the series. Believe me, the women that Geralt is interested in can take care of themselves, since they tend to be powerful sorceresses. I don't want to spoil anything, but you get suitably "rewarded" if you try to romance both Triss and Yennifer. Triss has some powerful scenes where the wrong choice is to play the hero saving the damsel in distress. Yennifer will teleport you high above a lake if you piss her off enough. And finally, the good ending depends on you empowering Ciri (a constant theme of the Social Justice article) rather than treating her as a child.
posted by Shibboleth at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Witcher 3 is much less misogynistic in my opinion. There is a difference between depicting misogyny and endorsing it, and I think that CD Projekt Red has learned a great deal as they have moved forward with the series. Believe me, the women that Geralt is interested in can take care of themselves, since they tend to be powerful sorceresses. I don't want to spoil anything, but you get suitably "rewarded" if you try to romance both Triss and Yennifer. Triss has some powerful scenes where the wrong choice is to play the hero saving the damsel in distress. Yennifer will teleport you high above a lake if you piss her off enough. And finally, the good ending depends on you empowering Ciri (a constant theme of the Social Justice article) rather than treating her as a child.
posted by Shibboleth at 2:22 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Very mild spoiler: To add to jeff-o-matic's post, one of the best blacksmith's in the game is a woman. She works beside another NPC who is the front person for the shop because he's male (and a dwarf) and they believe keeping him in the spotlight helps sales. But Geralt can help her get credit for her work, or encourage her to stay in the background.
I finished the game a while ago, but they just released a "new game plus" free DLC that let's you play again, making new choices, while keeping your level and gear and raising the level of all of the enemies in the game to compensate. They also improved the responsiveness of the combat. The game is definitely one of the best I've ever played.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 2:44 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
I finished the game a while ago, but they just released a "new game plus" free DLC that let's you play again, making new choices, while keeping your level and gear and raising the level of all of the enemies in the game to compensate. They also improved the responsiveness of the combat. The game is definitely one of the best I've ever played.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 2:44 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Actually, there is a moment where treating like Ciri like a child (or rather, playfully) is rewarded, and it's pretty cute, as it lingers in the aftermath of loss and depressing stuff. The alternative is to get piss drunk (yet again) but that doesn't go so well, and results in a strike towards a bad ending.
The game is far more progressive than I was expecting from the series. The sexy stuff veers more towards the fun and goofy, where in the past hedged between titillating and leering.
The women of the piece are very much central and resolve things on their own, and player input on matters feels secondary.
As a dark fairy tale, with the prime pillar of monster slaying, the sentient critters are probably its most fully realized creations.
posted by chainlinkspiral at 2:51 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The game is far more progressive than I was expecting from the series. The sexy stuff veers more towards the fun and goofy, where in the past hedged between titillating and leering.
The women of the piece are very much central and resolve things on their own, and player input on matters feels secondary.
As a dark fairy tale, with the prime pillar of monster slaying, the sentient critters are probably its most fully realized creations.
posted by chainlinkspiral at 2:51 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, from what I've heard, Witcher 3 is a marked improvement over its preceding games, and it does better than I expected in a number of situations and stories. That said, it is still thoroughly grounded in the same old tiresome patriarchal fantasy construction stuff -- the women are more dimensional and better (if inconsistently) written, but there's still a strong, inescapable "women, amirite" structure to Geralt's relationship with almost all the women characters, and often in his conversations with men about women. It sounds like this is from the source material as much as it is the game designers, and that's fine, in the sense that I'm not interested in who's to blame. This is a common problem in fantasy writing and like I said, I appreciate the areas where they've improved upon previous writing.
What I do find most interesting is the potential for more and better in the game. There is ( MINOR SPOILER ) an option when you play Ciri to say that she prefers women, though it comes in a situation where she's trying to avoid playful interrogation about her romantic life. The person I was watching did not choose that option, and I don't know what happens when you pick it, or what exactly she says, or how truthful it is for Ciri. Later on in that scene, you can choose to have Ciri express romantic interest to a male NPC, or not. ( /MINOR SPOILER ) The writer of the linked playthrough mentions the hunter who is ostracized for being gay; when you're in big towns like Novigrad, though, there do appear to be some male sex workers, though it's not clear what kind of customers they were looking for.
Also, Geralt's Polish voice actor sounds nothing like the stoic, gruff 90s antihero that his English voice actor is, and Geralt as a character is a wine connoisseur and apparently can have opinions on interior decor, as the writer noted. Geralt the video game character is understandably somewhat bound by whoever Geralt the book character is, though there are differences (apparently in the books Geralt hates having a beard), but really it's just the same thing that you ultimately come to all the time with fantasy fiction and video games -- we could choose to have protagonists that are different than what we have now, and it would be even more fantastic. As much as I've enjoyed watching Witcher 3 videos, and as fantastic as I vicariously find the game, it's that exact excellence in these wide open world with difficult decisions and a vast, varied human landscape thing that underlines the point. It could be all this, and have people of color and more robustly written women and representations of sexuality other than straight or tragically gay.
Anyway, mileage definitely varies on the treatment of the sexytimes scenes. I found almost every single one embarrassing and cringeworthy in execution. The graphics are good in this game, but not good enough for even "tasteful glimpses" of the sex scenes. There's still a definite plasticine stink of rubbing two slightly more mobile barbies together, for me.
posted by automatic cabinet at 2:58 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
What I do find most interesting is the potential for more and better in the game. There is ( MINOR SPOILER ) an option when you play Ciri to say that she prefers women, though it comes in a situation where she's trying to avoid playful interrogation about her romantic life. The person I was watching did not choose that option, and I don't know what happens when you pick it, or what exactly she says, or how truthful it is for Ciri. Later on in that scene, you can choose to have Ciri express romantic interest to a male NPC, or not. ( /MINOR SPOILER ) The writer of the linked playthrough mentions the hunter who is ostracized for being gay; when you're in big towns like Novigrad, though, there do appear to be some male sex workers, though it's not clear what kind of customers they were looking for.
Also, Geralt's Polish voice actor sounds nothing like the stoic, gruff 90s antihero that his English voice actor is, and Geralt as a character is a wine connoisseur and apparently can have opinions on interior decor, as the writer noted. Geralt the video game character is understandably somewhat bound by whoever Geralt the book character is, though there are differences (apparently in the books Geralt hates having a beard), but really it's just the same thing that you ultimately come to all the time with fantasy fiction and video games -- we could choose to have protagonists that are different than what we have now, and it would be even more fantastic. As much as I've enjoyed watching Witcher 3 videos, and as fantastic as I vicariously find the game, it's that exact excellence in these wide open world with difficult decisions and a vast, varied human landscape thing that underlines the point. It could be all this, and have people of color and more robustly written women and representations of sexuality other than straight or tragically gay.
Anyway, mileage definitely varies on the treatment of the sexytimes scenes. I found almost every single one embarrassing and cringeworthy in execution. The graphics are good in this game, but not good enough for even "tasteful glimpses" of the sex scenes. There's still a definite plasticine stink of rubbing two slightly more mobile barbies together, for me.
posted by automatic cabinet at 2:58 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
jeff-o-matic: "Haven't finished W3 yet. A few things to consider though. (First...It's fantasy.)"
First, this has to stop being a thing people say in defense of whatever media or genre they're talking about. "It's fantasy" is no excuse. This game is still coming up short when it comes to being friendly/less hostile to the women in its world, regardless of the progress made since W1 (and oh god that was a low bar). "Here are the good parts" doesn't negate the fact that a lot of the writing choices are awkward and cringe-inducing and portray women in some weird unrealistic ways.
Triss isn't an actual woman. She's a character written for this game, with actions written for a specific audience. "Yeah but she's young so of course she'd choose to be hot" is a lazy and yeah, misogynistic excuse. There are ways to portray young and irresponsible women, and Triss was a deliberate choice made by the development team. Let's please admit it for what it is.
Geralt being sterile and badass and disease-free is no excuse for some of the stupid dialogue women throw at him, or the downright crazy situations where they offer him sex. His conditions are a great setup for what could be legitimately fun scenarios, but the game instead continues to offer him women on a platter in the most lazy way.
And so on and so forth! Being a decent, honorable guy who looks out for both male and female victims of atrocities does not exclude being a participant in misogyny and more nuanced, subtle oppression of women. Geralt, or rather the game, does not pass the test.
I say this as someone who played the games, who cried tears of joy seeing the art of the latest game, and who wants better. It's a nice and fun escape fantasy for most players, but I couldn't get past some of the ham-fisted ways it still managed to treat my gender. Social/racial/economic commentary this game made aside, I was still left disappointed.
But it's nice and fun.
posted by erratic meatsack at 3:15 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
First, this has to stop being a thing people say in defense of whatever media or genre they're talking about. "It's fantasy" is no excuse. This game is still coming up short when it comes to being friendly/less hostile to the women in its world, regardless of the progress made since W1 (and oh god that was a low bar). "Here are the good parts" doesn't negate the fact that a lot of the writing choices are awkward and cringe-inducing and portray women in some weird unrealistic ways.
Triss isn't an actual woman. She's a character written for this game, with actions written for a specific audience. "Yeah but she's young so of course she'd choose to be hot" is a lazy and yeah, misogynistic excuse. There are ways to portray young and irresponsible women, and Triss was a deliberate choice made by the development team. Let's please admit it for what it is.
Geralt being sterile and badass and disease-free is no excuse for some of the stupid dialogue women throw at him, or the downright crazy situations where they offer him sex. His conditions are a great setup for what could be legitimately fun scenarios, but the game instead continues to offer him women on a platter in the most lazy way.
And so on and so forth! Being a decent, honorable guy who looks out for both male and female victims of atrocities does not exclude being a participant in misogyny and more nuanced, subtle oppression of women. Geralt, or rather the game, does not pass the test.
I say this as someone who played the games, who cried tears of joy seeing the art of the latest game, and who wants better. It's a nice and fun escape fantasy for most players, but I couldn't get past some of the ham-fisted ways it still managed to treat my gender. Social/racial/economic commentary this game made aside, I was still left disappointed.
But it's nice and fun.
posted by erratic meatsack at 3:15 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Some people ARE sexist, some mores, some less. And this is a game that has to develop characters in broad strokes and move the action along. Do I agree with all the writing? No. But for a dark medieval wartime fantasy game I can't imagine it being more fair to sex roles than what's here without it simply mirroring some 2015 projection of how the world is SUPPOSED to work. I'd also argue that of the few women that are potential sex partners... maybe they really WANT to have sex with Geralt? Maybe that's a "reward" for them as well as Geralt! Some women really LIKE hetero sex with no strings (and in this case, no risks). No one here gets forced, coerced, or tricked by Geralt.
Triss isn't "irresponsible," but acts like a younger person might. She's not an "actual woman" as you put it, but neither is Geralt an "actual man." The story fleshes his character out more because he is the protagonist. But c'mon these are like interactive comic books/cartoons. We aren't going to see ultra deep complexities when the majority of your time is killing ghouls and bad guys.
I do agree with you about some of the revealing outfits on women. Though there's a lengthy sequence when Geralt is only wearing a towel around his waist, showing off his physique, and you come across plenty of male NPCs and background characters who are shirtless, too.
Could it be more inclusive? Yes, but it is based on some stories written in the 1980s, so it even pre-dates GRRM's grim dark fantasy outlook.
And again, without CONFLICT, and competing motives and desires between characters, there is no story. And that's what much of the sexism that is in this game (along with many other themes) is about.
I would LOVE to see MORE games with strong women protagonists. This game is based on a bunch of old pulp fiction stories and is not one of them.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 3:35 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Triss isn't "irresponsible," but acts like a younger person might. She's not an "actual woman" as you put it, but neither is Geralt an "actual man." The story fleshes his character out more because he is the protagonist. But c'mon these are like interactive comic books/cartoons. We aren't going to see ultra deep complexities when the majority of your time is killing ghouls and bad guys.
I do agree with you about some of the revealing outfits on women. Though there's a lengthy sequence when Geralt is only wearing a towel around his waist, showing off his physique, and you come across plenty of male NPCs and background characters who are shirtless, too.
Could it be more inclusive? Yes, but it is based on some stories written in the 1980s, so it even pre-dates GRRM's grim dark fantasy outlook.
And again, without CONFLICT, and competing motives and desires between characters, there is no story. And that's what much of the sexism that is in this game (along with many other themes) is about.
I would LOVE to see MORE games with strong women protagonists. This game is based on a bunch of old pulp fiction stories and is not one of them.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 3:35 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
But for a dark medieval wartime fantasy game I can't imagine it being more fair to sex roles than what's here without it simply mirroring some 2015 projection of how the world is SUPPOSED to work.
Are you arguing that The Witcher series has the sexism it does for historical accuracy purposes? Because it's not depicting the real world. Everything in it is made up. It can be as 2015 as it wants to be about how it treats women. i don't have a problem with a game containing female characters who might have sex with male characters. I do want those interactions to not be shittily written. I've not completed W3 so I can't speak to all of it, but there's plenty of stuff about the earlier games that makes me cringe, and definite touches of that so far in W3, though not as bad.
We aren't going to see ultra deep complexities when the majority of your time is killing ghouls and bad guys.
Why not? I want a game that is complex and beautifully written which also has ghouls and bad guys. I think you probably do too.
posted by axiom at 3:52 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Are you arguing that The Witcher series has the sexism it does for historical accuracy purposes? Because it's not depicting the real world. Everything in it is made up. It can be as 2015 as it wants to be about how it treats women. i don't have a problem with a game containing female characters who might have sex with male characters. I do want those interactions to not be shittily written. I've not completed W3 so I can't speak to all of it, but there's plenty of stuff about the earlier games that makes me cringe, and definite touches of that so far in W3, though not as bad.
We aren't going to see ultra deep complexities when the majority of your time is killing ghouls and bad guys.
Why not? I want a game that is complex and beautifully written which also has ghouls and bad guys. I think you probably do too.
posted by axiom at 3:52 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Jeff-o-matic, I know what you mean, but I also know what you mean because I've heard these exact excuses time and time and time again. The conversation never seems to move on from "it's just fantasy!" or "it's just a video game!" or "it's just a comic book," "it's a product of its era," or "but the guys are wearing revealing outfits too!" -- it's okay if you don't want to ask more of your media, because this is all status quo and okay for you, but other people are here asking for more because the status quo is dissatisfying and tiresome for us.
The thing is, writing women well is not a matter of "ultra deep complexities." Writing Geralt's relationship with these various women better isn't either. Writing these things well is one of the things that wins us as readers/players to the world and its stories. When done poorly, at best it doesn't accomplish that, and at worst, it actively alienates us.
From what I've watched, I don't love the writing, but I also recognize that writing for video games is very difficult, and that this writing is pretty good for a video game, and even better considering the Witcher games history. As you say, conflict is key to all writing, particularly for video games, and sure, sexism does generate plenty of conflict. And yet, it is extremely tiresome, and tired.
Look at the way they handled Cerys in the Skellige plot: the idea of Cerys becoming the new ruler is obviously considered unusual, but because of their culture and various other factors -- the emphasis on acts of valor, the fact the ruler must be elected, that Cerys is Crach's daughter -- it isn't strongly opposed and if she does become the queen, only a few people are upset, and that's because they're clan enemies who wanted their son to become ruler. Her brother Hjalmar, while initially upset, also cleaves to his family and supports his sister. Sexism plays a role in this plot but it isn't the axle upon which the story turns.
Which is not to say this plot is perfect and exemplary, I definitely have my criticisms of it, but it's an example of better writing than I expected, of more interesting conflict than the same old tired BUT SHE'S A GIRRRRRLLLL SHE CAN'T BE THE RULER that might have formed the backbone of one of those positively ancient pre-GRRM 1980s fantasy stories you mentioned (hamburger). Or of a recent Disney movie.
posted by automatic cabinet at 4:12 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
The thing is, writing women well is not a matter of "ultra deep complexities." Writing Geralt's relationship with these various women better isn't either. Writing these things well is one of the things that wins us as readers/players to the world and its stories. When done poorly, at best it doesn't accomplish that, and at worst, it actively alienates us.
From what I've watched, I don't love the writing, but I also recognize that writing for video games is very difficult, and that this writing is pretty good for a video game, and even better considering the Witcher games history. As you say, conflict is key to all writing, particularly for video games, and sure, sexism does generate plenty of conflict. And yet, it is extremely tiresome, and tired.
Look at the way they handled Cerys in the Skellige plot: the idea of Cerys becoming the new ruler is obviously considered unusual, but because of their culture and various other factors -- the emphasis on acts of valor, the fact the ruler must be elected, that Cerys is Crach's daughter -- it isn't strongly opposed and if she does become the queen, only a few people are upset, and that's because they're clan enemies who wanted their son to become ruler. Her brother Hjalmar, while initially upset, also cleaves to his family and supports his sister. Sexism plays a role in this plot but it isn't the axle upon which the story turns.
Which is not to say this plot is perfect and exemplary, I definitely have my criticisms of it, but it's an example of better writing than I expected, of more interesting conflict than the same old tired BUT SHE'S A GIRRRRRLLLL SHE CAN'T BE THE RULER that might have formed the backbone of one of those positively ancient pre-GRRM 1980s fantasy stories you mentioned (hamburger). Or of a recent Disney movie.
posted by automatic cabinet at 4:12 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Are you arguing that The Witcher series has the sexism it does for historical accuracy purposes?"
No, but its setting is based on a series of books and stories written long ago. From what I've heard it's pretty faithful to that setting. These medieval fantasies are all sort of alternate Western histories with added magic. Again, it's how the women and men react in a world that is inherently unfair. And there's plenty of empowered women. Baron's wife and daughter leave him and go on to bigger things, just another example.
There's all kinds of shitty writing in the game, at least dialog-wise (though head and shoulders above most), not just what the women say, so I think you're cherry picking a bit here.
TL, DR: I think we agree more than we disagree. I'm going to go play the game some more.
@automatic cabinet I haven't gotten to Skellige yet, so I didn't read your example. And yes I would like to get away from tired tropes. One that gets me aside from sexism is war. Every damn fantasy game has to take place in a war-torn zone. Lazy writing, but investors don't want to throw millions of $$ at something they don't think will sell.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:14 PM on August 20, 2015
No, but its setting is based on a series of books and stories written long ago. From what I've heard it's pretty faithful to that setting. These medieval fantasies are all sort of alternate Western histories with added magic. Again, it's how the women and men react in a world that is inherently unfair. And there's plenty of empowered women. Baron's wife and daughter leave him and go on to bigger things, just another example.
There's all kinds of shitty writing in the game, at least dialog-wise (though head and shoulders above most), not just what the women say, so I think you're cherry picking a bit here.
TL, DR: I think we agree more than we disagree. I'm going to go play the game some more.
@automatic cabinet I haven't gotten to Skellige yet, so I didn't read your example. And yes I would like to get away from tired tropes. One that gets me aside from sexism is war. Every damn fantasy game has to take place in a war-torn zone. Lazy writing, but investors don't want to throw millions of $$ at something they don't think will sell.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:14 PM on August 20, 2015
Sorry, last comment:
Add to the complexity the fact that the game was written in Polish and had to be translated into several different languages. You just aren't going to get nuance and sublime writing with all those variables. These stories are broad strokes for many reasons.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:20 PM on August 20, 2015
Add to the complexity the fact that the game was written in Polish and had to be translated into several different languages. You just aren't going to get nuance and sublime writing with all those variables. These stories are broad strokes for many reasons.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:20 PM on August 20, 2015
These medieval fantasies are all sort of alternate Western histories with added magic.
Yes, because we chose to write them that way, just like we can choose to write them some other way, because it's writing that we control.
And there's plenty of empowered women. Baron's wife and daughter leave him and go on to bigger things, just another example.
This is one of the worst possible plot examples for empowered women in the entire game. The Baron abuses his wife to the point where she miscarries a child, obfuscating that fact and rationalizing and justifying his actions to Geralt the entire time as the story comes out (and you can either sympathize or condemn him, but he's withholding information on Ciri so you might feel pressured one way); the wife and daughter flee in the middle of the night, where they're attacked by monsters and then the wife gets abducted by creepyass witches who take her memories and make her old and, depending on what you do as Geralt, might die horribly as a condition of her servitude to them. The daughter gets pulled into a religious cult! You can make the argument for the daughter, especially since that particular Eternal Fire dude seemed reasonable and wasn't a total ass, but "empowered" is still a bit strong, imo.
Sometimes it even feels difficult to make an empowered argument for the main female characters, since as a function of the video game they have to revolve around Geralt's decisions (and sometimes his dick). And yeah, sure, that is a fault of structure more than it is of writing, but the end result is the same. Yennefer and Triss all at least have their own agendas and motivations for things they do, and of course things change depending on you, the player's decision as Geralt, and yet, throwing up our hands and saying "well, we can't do any better than this!" is kind of absurd.
posted by automatic cabinet at 4:27 PM on August 20, 2015
Yes, because we chose to write them that way, just like we can choose to write them some other way, because it's writing that we control.
And there's plenty of empowered women. Baron's wife and daughter leave him and go on to bigger things, just another example.
This is one of the worst possible plot examples for empowered women in the entire game. The Baron abuses his wife to the point where she miscarries a child, obfuscating that fact and rationalizing and justifying his actions to Geralt the entire time as the story comes out (and you can either sympathize or condemn him, but he's withholding information on Ciri so you might feel pressured one way); the wife and daughter flee in the middle of the night, where they're attacked by monsters and then the wife gets abducted by creepyass witches who take her memories and make her old and, depending on what you do as Geralt, might die horribly as a condition of her servitude to them. The daughter gets pulled into a religious cult! You can make the argument for the daughter, especially since that particular Eternal Fire dude seemed reasonable and wasn't a total ass, but "empowered" is still a bit strong, imo.
Sometimes it even feels difficult to make an empowered argument for the main female characters, since as a function of the video game they have to revolve around Geralt's decisions (and sometimes his dick). And yeah, sure, that is a fault of structure more than it is of writing, but the end result is the same. Yennefer and Triss all at least have their own agendas and motivations for things they do, and of course things change depending on you, the player's decision as Geralt, and yet, throwing up our hands and saying "well, we can't do any better than this!" is kind of absurd.
posted by automatic cabinet at 4:27 PM on August 20, 2015
""well, we can't do any better than this!" is kind of absurd." Tell that to the investors backing a game that's going to cost $20 million.
The Baron ends up miserable as well. I too get sick of the grim dark misery trope. Ah well, at least it seems things are sort of moving in the better direction, or so it seems at least with CD Projekt.
Also, one of the best vendor/herbalists in the game (in white orchard) is female, is self made, an expert and has a nice house and a great living situation.
ALSO (swear this is it) it's mentioned over and over that Geralt is a mutant and has had his morals and his emotions irrevocably altered by becoming a Witcher.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:33 PM on August 20, 2015
The Baron ends up miserable as well. I too get sick of the grim dark misery trope. Ah well, at least it seems things are sort of moving in the better direction, or so it seems at least with CD Projekt.
Also, one of the best vendor/herbalists in the game (in white orchard) is female, is self made, an expert and has a nice house and a great living situation.
ALSO (swear this is it) it's mentioned over and over that Geralt is a mutant and has had his morals and his emotions irrevocably altered by becoming a Witcher.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:33 PM on August 20, 2015
jeff-o-matic, I'll be honest and say that I don't really understand the motivation behind some of your responses - something like wanting to even out people's criticisms of the game? Like, yeah there are things it does well - but there are also things it's still shit at. Traditional fantasy setting nonwithstanding, Polish book origins nonwithstanding, it fails on levels that people have a problem with. And some people, like me, aren't going to give it a pass just because the list of pros isn't completely empty.
There is no denying that some parts of the game are indeed very progressive. I don't think anyone is saying "This entire product is problematic and you shouldn't bother." But the excuses you're falling back on for the parts that aren't progressive aren't really new for a male-centered medieval-fantasy [whatever], and they don't actually explain a damn thing about any of these being okay choices.
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:39 PM on August 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
There is no denying that some parts of the game are indeed very progressive. I don't think anyone is saying "This entire product is problematic and you shouldn't bother." But the excuses you're falling back on for the parts that aren't progressive aren't really new for a male-centered medieval-fantasy [whatever], and they don't actually explain a damn thing about any of these being okay choices.
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:39 PM on August 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
I love the idea of playing Geralt as anxious about his sexuality, partially because the strident machismo that characterizes the writing in the Witcher series is almost ALWAYS a sign of anxiety about sexuality, and partially because an early scene in the second game (Geralt is in prison, shirtless and stripped of his weapons, and needs to make a deal with a handsome nobleman to get out) primed me to read a lot of the following scenes as homoerotic. It doesn't help that the writers have basically never met a human woman and thus the scenes where Geralt skeevily hit on ladies were so laughable that I just went back to thinking that his aggressive masculinity was some kind of awkward façade.
But, like the author of this article, I just couldn't maintain a non-douchebag Geralt even in my imagination; a super-duper-ultra-gross misogyny was just too intrinsic to the world and infected too many of the dialogues and plot beats. People in the comments here are saying that W2 was an improvement over W1, but I found the two games almost equally bad. To choose just one example, the dwarf town where Geralt spends a substantial part of the plot in the second game has a grand total of THREE women in it. One is in a coma and another is an evil manipulative lesbian. Spoiler alert, Geralt walks in on the lesbian lesbianing because of course he does.
I believe Lawrence Richards when he says there is a lot of good stuff in W3 (there was good stuff in the first two games too), but when the writers of a game either neglect or show outright contempt for me as a woman, and when the game is fighting me at every turn even as I try to create non-awful justifications for the awfulness I'm reading, I just can't get immersed in any of the cool stuff they happen to also do. And when all your "dialogue options" share gross subtexts and assumptions (without the option of saying Mu), it's exhausting. It reminds me of that recent Onion article about a woman trying to rationalize all the horrific shit her date is saying in real-time. There's no non-awful Geralt that can be constructed out of the evidence we have on screen, no anxious or genderqueer backstory that can make the surface Geralt make sense. There just isn't. When it walks like a douche, and quacks like a douche, it's probably a douche.
posted by Amberlyza at 4:40 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
But, like the author of this article, I just couldn't maintain a non-douchebag Geralt even in my imagination; a super-duper-ultra-gross misogyny was just too intrinsic to the world and infected too many of the dialogues and plot beats. People in the comments here are saying that W2 was an improvement over W1, but I found the two games almost equally bad. To choose just one example, the dwarf town where Geralt spends a substantial part of the plot in the second game has a grand total of THREE women in it. One is in a coma and another is an evil manipulative lesbian. Spoiler alert, Geralt walks in on the lesbian lesbianing because of course he does.
I believe Lawrence Richards when he says there is a lot of good stuff in W3 (there was good stuff in the first two games too), but when the writers of a game either neglect or show outright contempt for me as a woman, and when the game is fighting me at every turn even as I try to create non-awful justifications for the awfulness I'm reading, I just can't get immersed in any of the cool stuff they happen to also do. And when all your "dialogue options" share gross subtexts and assumptions (without the option of saying Mu), it's exhausting. It reminds me of that recent Onion article about a woman trying to rationalize all the horrific shit her date is saying in real-time. There's no non-awful Geralt that can be constructed out of the evidence we have on screen, no anxious or genderqueer backstory that can make the surface Geralt make sense. There just isn't. When it walks like a douche, and quacks like a douche, it's probably a douche.
posted by Amberlyza at 4:40 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
"it fails on levels that (some) people have a problem with." FTFY
"don't actually explain a damn thing about any of these being okay choices."
Swear to god I am not a gamer gate jerk, but who decides what choices are OK? Also, I will note that the only women in the game you can have sex with are all super powerful sorceresses of one kind or another. And the main character is a mutant who kills undead, monsters and evil bandits for a living and brews potions with their internal organs. And puts oil on his sword depending on the bad guy. And makes bombs that reappear when he meditates. And can carry 100 swords at a time. And can reload a save when he dies. And has a magic horse that follows him everywhere.
It's not a Bergman film, folks. It's a comic book. Yes video games should branch out and become more nuanced. I hope they do. The funny thing Is, I was on a different web forum making similar points and was getting shouted down for being way too critical about the game.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:52 PM on August 20, 2015
"don't actually explain a damn thing about any of these being okay choices."
Swear to god I am not a gamer gate jerk, but who decides what choices are OK? Also, I will note that the only women in the game you can have sex with are all super powerful sorceresses of one kind or another. And the main character is a mutant who kills undead, monsters and evil bandits for a living and brews potions with their internal organs. And puts oil on his sword depending on the bad guy. And makes bombs that reappear when he meditates. And can carry 100 swords at a time. And can reload a save when he dies. And has a magic horse that follows him everywhere.
It's not a Bergman film, folks. It's a comic book. Yes video games should branch out and become more nuanced. I hope they do. The funny thing Is, I was on a different web forum making similar points and was getting shouted down for being way too critical about the game.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 4:52 PM on August 20, 2015
Oh god okay look - women being "powerful" in games in terms of special abilities or talents or whatever doesn't mean jack shit. Consider at all the problems in the comic industry, which is full of superheroes who are grossly sexualized all the time. It's not okay! And you know who gets to decide what's okay in terms of women characters? Women. Maybe even the women in this thread who are trying to tell you that some parts of the game being okay does not mean other parts don't deserve harsh criticism. (Also, hi! I'm one of your friendly neighborhood game devs and this industry has massive problems I deal with on a daily basis.)
All your comments about Geralt, and the crazy real-world-breaking game logic he can do, means absolutely nothing. Nothing! If anything, it should serve as proof that your disbelief is already suspended, and you can suspend it further by allowing actual deep female characters in a medieval-looking setting.
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:56 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
All your comments about Geralt, and the crazy real-world-breaking game logic he can do, means absolutely nothing. Nothing! If anything, it should serve as proof that your disbelief is already suspended, and you can suspend it further by allowing actual deep female characters in a medieval-looking setting.
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:56 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Not being facetious: Can you point me to a game where you think women's roles are fairly fleshed out?
100% not trolling. You can look at my posting history. I wish I had 20 million to throw at a game company to make a pro-woman game, or one that had a better sense of reality. I understand today's game business/movie business reality... that's why we get 500 sequels/Marvel comics movies every year in theaters nowadays. Big business is risk averse.
I apologize if I was being too strident in my previous posts. Peace.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 5:02 PM on August 20, 2015
100% not trolling. You can look at my posting history. I wish I had 20 million to throw at a game company to make a pro-woman game, or one that had a better sense of reality. I understand today's game business/movie business reality... that's why we get 500 sequels/Marvel comics movies every year in theaters nowadays. Big business is risk averse.
I apologize if I was being too strident in my previous posts. Peace.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 5:02 PM on August 20, 2015
And you know who gets to decide what's okay in terms of women characters? Women.
That is one of the most factually incorrect statements I've seen this week. Every woman writer at DC and Marvel is answering to a man Editor, and there has been negative public response recently from the comics creative community about the effects of that. (sorry, no time to look it up, just check any Comics Journalism site over the last month or so)
One thing I have been wondering is whether any "AAA" gamemaker has ever made a declaration in opposition to the public obscenity that is GamerGate. If not, could it be because they don't want to alienate a significant part of their audience, or do they not want to alienate their own creatives, many of whom are obviously strident (if anonymous) Gators?
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:05 PM on August 20, 2015
That is one of the most factually incorrect statements I've seen this week. Every woman writer at DC and Marvel is answering to a man Editor, and there has been negative public response recently from the comics creative community about the effects of that. (sorry, no time to look it up, just check any Comics Journalism site over the last month or so)
One thing I have been wondering is whether any "AAA" gamemaker has ever made a declaration in opposition to the public obscenity that is GamerGate. If not, could it be because they don't want to alienate a significant part of their audience, or do they not want to alienate their own creatives, many of whom are obviously strident (if anonymous) Gators?
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:05 PM on August 20, 2015
I wasn't making a factual statement. I'm saying that criticism of female characters by actual women holds a hell of a lot more weight than "But no this is okay because [fantasy]" statements from men. I thought that was clear from the context of my post.
jeff-o-matic, I find it incredibly sad that I can't think of any games off the top of my head right now. Gah! I'm sorry. Maybe someone reading this can offer a few titles in lieu of my brainfart? (I've been escaping into Banished and Cities: Skylines and other titles where I don't have to realize "I'm a woman playing this" and can just immerse myself in the game.)
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:11 PM on August 20, 2015
jeff-o-matic, I find it incredibly sad that I can't think of any games off the top of my head right now. Gah! I'm sorry. Maybe someone reading this can offer a few titles in lieu of my brainfart? (I've been escaping into Banished and Cities: Skylines and other titles where I don't have to realize "I'm a woman playing this" and can just immerse myself in the game.)
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:11 PM on August 20, 2015
witcher 3 sex scenes.
(i don't play computer games, but i thought graphics were supposed to be almost realistic these days. this looks really old-fashioned to me. why?) (maybe it's a joke and these aren't the real scenes?)
posted by andrewcooke at 5:51 PM on August 20, 2015
(i don't play computer games, but i thought graphics were supposed to be almost realistic these days. this looks really old-fashioned to me. why?) (maybe it's a joke and these aren't the real scenes?)
posted by andrewcooke at 5:51 PM on August 20, 2015
That is one of the most factually incorrect statements I've seen this week.
I think you're misreading that, onewswellfoop. The thrust was that women ought to be considered better judges of how well-written female characters are than men are.
Maybe someone reading this can offer a few titles in lieu of my brainfart?
I'm having a hard time coming up with any. Mass Effect when played as FemShep? Maybe even when played as a male Shepard; I don't have much memory of the (human) female characters being badly written, though I played pretty heavily Paragon so I don't know what happens in every dialogue tree. I think I vaguely remember not hating some of the women in the KOTOR games (erm, the blind lady from the second one maybe?). it's actually very hard to think of examples in part because the protagonist of most every RPG with only a single protagonist (as opposed to those with parties) is either a man, or a blank slate (e.g., Skyrim or Fallout) written in ways where the NPCs can largely speak to them in ways that elide their gender entirely. Also, I'm not a woman, so I imagine I'm not as sensitive to badly-written female characters as a woman would be. We've come full circle back to erratic meatsack's point.
posted by axiom at 5:59 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you're misreading that, onewswellfoop. The thrust was that women ought to be considered better judges of how well-written female characters are than men are.
Maybe someone reading this can offer a few titles in lieu of my brainfart?
I'm having a hard time coming up with any. Mass Effect when played as FemShep? Maybe even when played as a male Shepard; I don't have much memory of the (human) female characters being badly written, though I played pretty heavily Paragon so I don't know what happens in every dialogue tree. I think I vaguely remember not hating some of the women in the KOTOR games (erm, the blind lady from the second one maybe?). it's actually very hard to think of examples in part because the protagonist of most every RPG with only a single protagonist (as opposed to those with parties) is either a man, or a blank slate (e.g., Skyrim or Fallout) written in ways where the NPCs can largely speak to them in ways that elide their gender entirely. Also, I'm not a woman, so I imagine I'm not as sensitive to badly-written female characters as a woman would be. We've come full circle back to erratic meatsack's point.
posted by axiom at 5:59 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hah, Jeff-o-matic, like political discussion, it depends which forum you're on, you're liable to be called a left wing extremist in one and a right wing extremist in another.
You can actually pay to purchase the "services" of prostitutes in various brothels, so no you're not actually restricted to just the witches. Though the funniest laugh out loud moment for me was walking into the brothel and being offered the various women on display and (OBVIOUSLY) picking the response of "So... do you play Gwent?"
For those who may not have played the game, Gwent is a card game within the game, that is actually quite good, it should be a game on its own like Hearthstone... you go around collecting cards to make decks, and when you beat another player in the world you get a random card from them. The way I played it felt like - and many other people, from all accounts - Geralt's true calling was being some super nerd who loves Magic The Gathering (TM), and his real purpose of traveling to all these exotic locations is to find more people to play with and collect all the rare cards in the game. The whole traveling Witcher thing is just a pretense for being able to tour the world in search of cards. The actual combat of the game wasn't that interesting, and the only real moments of tension was during the card games. I loved the dynamic of people in small villages generally having lousy decks, but then when you went to the big city suddenly the quality of the players increased!
The way the little revealing bits on the witches dresses are designed to tease you, the way the witches all fawn over you, everyone in every village seems to have a problem only you can solve, all seem to point to the fact this is written as total unadulterated male power fantasy, and then the twist is it turns out Geralt is a gigantic Magic the Gathering nerd.
posted by xdvesper at 6:10 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
You can actually pay to purchase the "services" of prostitutes in various brothels, so no you're not actually restricted to just the witches. Though the funniest laugh out loud moment for me was walking into the brothel and being offered the various women on display and (OBVIOUSLY) picking the response of "So... do you play Gwent?"
For those who may not have played the game, Gwent is a card game within the game, that is actually quite good, it should be a game on its own like Hearthstone... you go around collecting cards to make decks, and when you beat another player in the world you get a random card from them. The way I played it felt like - and many other people, from all accounts - Geralt's true calling was being some super nerd who loves Magic The Gathering (TM), and his real purpose of traveling to all these exotic locations is to find more people to play with and collect all the rare cards in the game. The whole traveling Witcher thing is just a pretense for being able to tour the world in search of cards. The actual combat of the game wasn't that interesting, and the only real moments of tension was during the card games. I loved the dynamic of people in small villages generally having lousy decks, but then when you went to the big city suddenly the quality of the players increased!
The way the little revealing bits on the witches dresses are designed to tease you, the way the witches all fawn over you, everyone in every village seems to have a problem only you can solve, all seem to point to the fact this is written as total unadulterated male power fantasy, and then the twist is it turns out Geralt is a gigantic Magic the Gathering nerd.
posted by xdvesper at 6:10 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
One thing I have been wondering is whether any "AAA" gamemaker has ever made a declaration in opposition to the public obscenity that is GamerGate.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
It has happened, IIRC, but for the most part, the attitude of corporate marketing departments is Stay On Target, and anyone not in the PR department has signed a contract to say nothing that hasn't already been said by Marketing.
posted by anonymisc at 6:10 PM on August 20, 2015
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
It has happened, IIRC, but for the most part, the attitude of corporate marketing departments is Stay On Target, and anyone not in the PR department has signed a contract to say nothing that hasn't already been said by Marketing.
posted by anonymisc at 6:10 PM on August 20, 2015
xdvesper: "The way I played it felt like - and many other people, from all accounts - Geralt's true calling was being some super nerd who loves Magic The Gathering (TM), and his real purpose of traveling to all these exotic locations is to find more people to play with and collect all the rare cards in the game."
omg I love this
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:26 PM on August 20, 2015
omg I love this
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:26 PM on August 20, 2015
witcher 3 sex scenes
OK, so that shows exactly what I'm talking about. In the first scene he's bedding some kind of warrior-woman, who conspicuously has zero visible scars while Geralt has many. These are all clearly meant for male consumption; notice how every woman is either naked or wearing stripper lingerie, but in that entire 16 minute video you see Geralt fully naked once in side-view sitting on a horse... every other time he's wearing proto-boxers, or it's some artfully framed shot with a dutch angle displaying part of his rib cage and some side-boob. I realize there are probably censorship considerations in the various national markets for this video game that affect that sort of thing, but that's just more patriarchy BS.
posted by axiom at 6:27 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
OK, so that shows exactly what I'm talking about. In the first scene he's bedding some kind of warrior-woman, who conspicuously has zero visible scars while Geralt has many. These are all clearly meant for male consumption; notice how every woman is either naked or wearing stripper lingerie, but in that entire 16 minute video you see Geralt fully naked once in side-view sitting on a horse... every other time he's wearing proto-boxers, or it's some artfully framed shot with a dutch angle displaying part of his rib cage and some side-boob. I realize there are probably censorship considerations in the various national markets for this video game that affect that sort of thing, but that's just more patriarchy BS.
posted by axiom at 6:27 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not a Bergman film, folks.
Well. Written. Women. Characters. Are not some kind of mystical, magical, $542857489057438957948574387 budget, deeply philosophical, just stop complaining and be PRAGMATIC, ladies! unicorn-like impossibility. Providing in-universe justifications for misogyny that we are talking about from an out-of-universe, real world point of view, is very silly. "The baron ends up miserable too!" is irrelevant. From start to finish, he had all the power, and not only that, his is the dominating point of view we receive of the story. It's only later that we get a few conversations with Anna or the daughter, who don't actually have that much to say. I am not arguing that plots like this should never be included, or are terrible, or whatever -- I'm saying that this kind of plot is the status quo, and so is its presentation. In fact, I think parts of its execution are surprisingly good, that the way we are introduced to the Baron is a deliberate attempt to make us like him even as we see the potential in his behavior for less likable qualities. As we discover the truth about what he's done, it's then easy to be disappointed, maybe even horrified, because that's what a well-written character does for us: we formed that connection and made an emotional investment. I can't think of a women character with whom something similar happens.
Who gets to decide what choices are okay? The production and consumption and contemplation of media is a discussion, we are discussing it, this is part of the creative process, right here, right now, albeit one that does not necessarily have great effect on the production aspect. There is no Magic Council on High determining, grandly, that the Witcher 3 is a terrible, misogynistic video game, forever and ever and that's how it'll be recorded in the history books, or that it was OK. There are parts that I thought were pretty great, and parts I thought were pretty bad. Some of the bad parts were pretty much deal breakers for people.
posted by automatic cabinet at 6:33 PM on August 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
Well. Written. Women. Characters. Are not some kind of mystical, magical, $542857489057438957948574387 budget, deeply philosophical, just stop complaining and be PRAGMATIC, ladies! unicorn-like impossibility. Providing in-universe justifications for misogyny that we are talking about from an out-of-universe, real world point of view, is very silly. "The baron ends up miserable too!" is irrelevant. From start to finish, he had all the power, and not only that, his is the dominating point of view we receive of the story. It's only later that we get a few conversations with Anna or the daughter, who don't actually have that much to say. I am not arguing that plots like this should never be included, or are terrible, or whatever -- I'm saying that this kind of plot is the status quo, and so is its presentation. In fact, I think parts of its execution are surprisingly good, that the way we are introduced to the Baron is a deliberate attempt to make us like him even as we see the potential in his behavior for less likable qualities. As we discover the truth about what he's done, it's then easy to be disappointed, maybe even horrified, because that's what a well-written character does for us: we formed that connection and made an emotional investment. I can't think of a women character with whom something similar happens.
Who gets to decide what choices are okay? The production and consumption and contemplation of media is a discussion, we are discussing it, this is part of the creative process, right here, right now, albeit one that does not necessarily have great effect on the production aspect. There is no Magic Council on High determining, grandly, that the Witcher 3 is a terrible, misogynistic video game, forever and ever and that's how it'll be recorded in the history books, or that it was OK. There are parts that I thought were pretty great, and parts I thought were pretty bad. Some of the bad parts were pretty much deal breakers for people.
posted by automatic cabinet at 6:33 PM on August 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
You know what would be grim and dark in a game? Being denied (quest) opportunities and patronized through (NPC) interactions and questioned about all your (game) choices and experiencing gaslighting and being cast into support roles every time you're in a group and every other grim and dark thing women experience every single day.
Except wait that's not ~fun~ and it's not the kind of grim and dark that people are talking about. Instead let's just go "This is all so damn depressing" as we ride our horse through filthy, war-torn, made up cities to visit another brothel.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:53 PM on August 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Except wait that's not ~fun~ and it's not the kind of grim and dark that people are talking about. Instead let's just go "This is all so damn depressing" as we ride our horse through filthy, war-torn, made up cities to visit another brothel.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:53 PM on August 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
do they not want to alienate their own creatives, many of whom are obviously strident (if anonymous) Gators?
Company culture varies company to company, but I think you should question your "obvious" premise. Just like there are gators in the barista industry there are going to be gators in the games industry and every other industry, but your phrasing implies something much bigger than that. My experience has been the opposite, where people in the industry close ranks against gators, the most obvious reason why is that people in the industry are the targets of gators.
Other people have had experiences closer to what you imagine. Making games or making coffee, there are some shitty places to work. I try not to end up in shitty places and I've also been been lucky, so my experiences are not universal. (I'm also not exposed to the worst of it because privilege)
But to answer your question, no, I don't think it's a case of not wanting to alienate company people. If anything the opposite has weight - people who want to keep the games market small and exclusive are basically opposing the financial and cultural interests of their employers. It's better to accumulate employees that share the company goals instead of undermining them.
I think there is a widespread perception that games are made by people who love games and therefore the (toxic) public gamer culture reveals what must be the culture behind the closed doors at the game-making companies. This is truthy rather than true. Like a stopped clock it often works, but the cultures and the kinds of people involved are generally very different (and sometimes at war).
posted by anonymisc at 6:53 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Company culture varies company to company, but I think you should question your "obvious" premise. Just like there are gators in the barista industry there are going to be gators in the games industry and every other industry, but your phrasing implies something much bigger than that. My experience has been the opposite, where people in the industry close ranks against gators, the most obvious reason why is that people in the industry are the targets of gators.
Other people have had experiences closer to what you imagine. Making games or making coffee, there are some shitty places to work. I try not to end up in shitty places and I've also been been lucky, so my experiences are not universal. (I'm also not exposed to the worst of it because privilege)
But to answer your question, no, I don't think it's a case of not wanting to alienate company people. If anything the opposite has weight - people who want to keep the games market small and exclusive are basically opposing the financial and cultural interests of their employers. It's better to accumulate employees that share the company goals instead of undermining them.
I think there is a widespread perception that games are made by people who love games and therefore the (toxic) public gamer culture reveals what must be the culture behind the closed doors at the game-making companies. This is truthy rather than true. Like a stopped clock it often works, but the cultures and the kinds of people involved are generally very different (and sometimes at war).
posted by anonymisc at 6:53 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
One thing I have been wondering is whether any "AAA" gamemaker has ever made a declaration in opposition to the public obscenity that is GamerGate. If not, could it be because they don't want to alienate a significant part of their audience, or do they not want to alienate their own creatives, many of whom are obviously strident (if anonymous) Gators?
I don't follow any of this very closely but I'm pretty sure some people at Bioware have explicitly come out against GG. They are certainly implicitly on the "other side" - or arguably GG put them there. I dunno if Tim Schafer really makes AAA games but he's a famous figure and he famously made fun of GG and really pissed them off. I'd be surprised if others haven't commented and I suspect more are against than for because:
where people in the industry close ranks against gators, the most obvious reason why is that people in the industry are the targets of gators.
posted by atoxyl at 7:34 PM on August 20, 2015
I don't follow any of this very closely but I'm pretty sure some people at Bioware have explicitly come out against GG. They are certainly implicitly on the "other side" - or arguably GG put them there. I dunno if Tim Schafer really makes AAA games but he's a famous figure and he famously made fun of GG and really pissed them off. I'd be surprised if others haven't commented and I suspect more are against than for because:
where people in the industry close ranks against gators, the most obvious reason why is that people in the industry are the targets of gators.
posted by atoxyl at 7:34 PM on August 20, 2015
You know what would be grim and dark in a game? Being denied (quest) opportunities and patronized through (NPC) interactions and questioned about all your (game) choices and experiencing gaslighting and being cast into support roles every time you're in a group...
Fully implemented in the endgame of most MMOs. (Except for the NPC part).... actually, MMO elitism might be a good metaphor for teaching some small subset of this stuff.
posted by yeolcoatl at 8:41 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fully implemented in the endgame of most MMOs. (Except for the NPC part).... actually, MMO elitism might be a good metaphor for teaching some small subset of this stuff.
posted by yeolcoatl at 8:41 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't follow any of this very closely but I'm pretty sure some people at Bioware have explicitly come out against GG.
Bioware writer David Gaider has been pretty vocal about trying to improve gender representation in their games:
"Maybe we should think about what our games say to women, to a broader audience — what someone who isn't part of a traditional demographic is going to think of our game," said Gaider. "What does our game encourage male players to think about women?"
And then there is this twitter response to a Witcher fanboy from another Bioware employee, which I love.
The Dragon Age and Mass Effect series are some of my favorite games, and they are some of the least toxic to play as a woman. But I feel like they get around the bestubbled alpha male toxicity by trying to make their player characters as non-gendered as possible, so even if you don't play as a male characters, the differences are only cosmetic. I've commented previously on how video games are frequently constructed on the premise that the player will have the default experience of a white man, with all the privilege that implies.
I wasn't going to buy the latest Witcher after reading about the trophy cards from the first game, but I ended up doing so - it came out the day after my final grades were due, and I needed a way to celebrate - and I have enjoyed the hell out of it. The story is ok, considering it's set in another fantasy world which has no trouble justifying dragons and vampires but considers dark skin to be "unrealistic." The visuals and combat, however, are better than any of the games I've played before. When Bioware released DLC for Dragon Age last week, I went back to Inquisition and was sad to discover how boring the gameplay was in comparison, as I like the Bioware crew much more than I like the minds behind Mr. Sexycards. But when I try to rationalize how much I enjoy the game, I end up thinking things like "Well, they don't kill that many prostitutes," or "None of the women I've rescued have offered to pay me in sex, so that's . . something?" and I feel dirty for liking it as much as I do. And reading well-articulated critiques of the game's sexism is not helping my cognitive dissonance any, thank you very much.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I need Fallout 4 to come out soon and be as inoffensive as possible. But it's sad that the best I feel I can hope for is less misogyny/homophobia/racism instead of games centered around a perspective that might be more akin to my own.
posted by bibliowench at 10:06 PM on August 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Bioware writer David Gaider has been pretty vocal about trying to improve gender representation in their games:
"Maybe we should think about what our games say to women, to a broader audience — what someone who isn't part of a traditional demographic is going to think of our game," said Gaider. "What does our game encourage male players to think about women?"
And then there is this twitter response to a Witcher fanboy from another Bioware employee, which I love.
The Dragon Age and Mass Effect series are some of my favorite games, and they are some of the least toxic to play as a woman. But I feel like they get around the bestubbled alpha male toxicity by trying to make their player characters as non-gendered as possible, so even if you don't play as a male characters, the differences are only cosmetic. I've commented previously on how video games are frequently constructed on the premise that the player will have the default experience of a white man, with all the privilege that implies.
I wasn't going to buy the latest Witcher after reading about the trophy cards from the first game, but I ended up doing so - it came out the day after my final grades were due, and I needed a way to celebrate - and I have enjoyed the hell out of it. The story is ok, considering it's set in another fantasy world which has no trouble justifying dragons and vampires but considers dark skin to be "unrealistic." The visuals and combat, however, are better than any of the games I've played before. When Bioware released DLC for Dragon Age last week, I went back to Inquisition and was sad to discover how boring the gameplay was in comparison, as I like the Bioware crew much more than I like the minds behind Mr. Sexycards. But when I try to rationalize how much I enjoy the game, I end up thinking things like "Well, they don't kill that many prostitutes," or "None of the women I've rescued have offered to pay me in sex, so that's . . something?" and I feel dirty for liking it as much as I do. And reading well-articulated critiques of the game's sexism is not helping my cognitive dissonance any, thank you very much.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I need Fallout 4 to come out soon and be as inoffensive as possible. But it's sad that the best I feel I can hope for is less misogyny/homophobia/racism instead of games centered around a perspective that might be more akin to my own.
posted by bibliowench at 10:06 PM on August 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Not being facetious: Can you point me to a game where you think women's roles are fairly fleshed out?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 5:02 PM on August 20 [+] [!]
I kind of get your point: if people criticizing a thing cannot point to how it can be made better, does that diminish the strength of that criticism? For example, if someone says you did a bad job cooking pasta, then you might say, well how is pasta meant to be cooked then, what does good pasta look like so I can do a better job next time? If this is already the best possible pasta that exists in the world, does that change anything?
Flipping the scenario on its head, if Geralt were female, we'd probably have some different criticisms of her. Shallow, one dimensional caricature of a character. Dysfunctional relationships, obsession with sex and killing. In fact, if you took an inventory of all key male characters (Dandelion, etc) I don't think their characterization has very much depth either. Come to think of it, I'd like to see a Witcher 4 sequel where you play as Ciri, as a witcher.
For what it's worth, Game of Thrones has great, well fleshed out female characters - for all the accusations of how badly it portrays some women in the series - it's still one of the biggest standouts of our time. I can't think of other series which has such a compelling cast of characters - Sansa, Arya, Margaery, Cersei, Brienne, Daenerys, Catelyn, Melisandre. So maybe take that as a benchmark.
posted by xdvesper at 10:10 PM on August 20, 2015
posted by jeff-o-matic at 5:02 PM on August 20 [+] [!]
I kind of get your point: if people criticizing a thing cannot point to how it can be made better, does that diminish the strength of that criticism? For example, if someone says you did a bad job cooking pasta, then you might say, well how is pasta meant to be cooked then, what does good pasta look like so I can do a better job next time? If this is already the best possible pasta that exists in the world, does that change anything?
Flipping the scenario on its head, if Geralt were female, we'd probably have some different criticisms of her. Shallow, one dimensional caricature of a character. Dysfunctional relationships, obsession with sex and killing. In fact, if you took an inventory of all key male characters (Dandelion, etc) I don't think their characterization has very much depth either. Come to think of it, I'd like to see a Witcher 4 sequel where you play as Ciri, as a witcher.
For what it's worth, Game of Thrones has great, well fleshed out female characters - for all the accusations of how badly it portrays some women in the series - it's still one of the biggest standouts of our time. I can't think of other series which has such a compelling cast of characters - Sansa, Arya, Margaery, Cersei, Brienne, Daenerys, Catelyn, Melisandre. So maybe take that as a benchmark.
posted by xdvesper at 10:10 PM on August 20, 2015
there's still a strong, inescapable "women, amirite" structure to Geralt's relationship with almost all the women characters, and often in his conversations with men about women
This basically describes >90% of actual men in the real world.
Not taking a stance about the game as such, just thought that this was amusing.
posted by jklaiho at 11:06 PM on August 20, 2015
This basically describes >90% of actual men in the real world.
Not taking a stance about the game as such, just thought that this was amusing.
posted by jklaiho at 11:06 PM on August 20, 2015
From the article: It felt like mansplaining was the best option.
That happens to me a lot, too.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:21 PM on August 20, 2015
That happens to me a lot, too.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:21 PM on August 20, 2015
Can you point me to a game where you think women's roles are fairly fleshed out?
Alien: Isolation had a pretty bad-ass protagonist carrying on in her bad-ass mother's footsteps. Neither of these ladies are in the profession of monster hunter. One's a space trucker, and the other, a space engineer. I believe this game passes the Bechdel test too, what with other women who are scientists, astronauts, space station staff as either major or minor NPCs. I don't remember ever cringing once (well, at any misogynistic dialogue, anyway. I cringed plenty elsewhere, but I think that was the point in a game about xenomorphs).
posted by ikahime at 12:03 AM on August 21, 2015
Alien: Isolation had a pretty bad-ass protagonist carrying on in her bad-ass mother's footsteps. Neither of these ladies are in the profession of monster hunter. One's a space trucker, and the other, a space engineer. I believe this game passes the Bechdel test too, what with other women who are scientists, astronauts, space station staff as either major or minor NPCs. I don't remember ever cringing once (well, at any misogynistic dialogue, anyway. I cringed plenty elsewhere, but I think that was the point in a game about xenomorphs).
posted by ikahime at 12:03 AM on August 21, 2015
Can you point me to a game where you think women's roles are fairly fleshed out?
Women? No. So instead let's try for a woman:
Jade from Beyond Good & Evil is the obvious no-points-awarded answer.
Femshep is head-canon only, damn everything.
Ellie from The Last of Us, though her age conveniently excuses Joel (the male player character) continually undercutting her agency.
...Alyx and/or Chell, I guess? Maybe? First has a classic damsel in distress thing pop up periodically, latter is mute because Valve FPS protagonist.
Emily from Dishonored 2 will probably make the cut - Harvey Smith's one of the first and most outspokenly anti-misogynistic designers in the industry. Feminism is clearly a front and center issue for him, and he has Furiosa for working reference sufficiently in advance of his console certification deadline to calibrate her ingame presentation.
To be honest there's not a lot to draw on here, and nothing in the vein of traditional fantasy. The Witcher 3 is certainly one of the more progressive (or less atavistic) things I've played with a medieval motif in a long time, which is ironic considering Witcher 1 was probably the most misogynstic game I've ever played, period.
One thing I have been wondering is whether any "AAA" gamemaker has ever made a declaration in opposition to the public obscenity that is GamerGate. If not, could it be because they don't want to alienate a significant part of their audience, or do they not want to alienate their own creatives, many of whom are obviously strident (if anonymous) Gators?
Wow. Just...wow.
Couple things:
1) Game developers are categorically just about the most liberal, pro-social justice people you are likely to meet outside a Metafilter meetup or the Village Voice staff. Like, maybe half a rung down from that on account of general middle-class nerd obliviousness. Go check Harvey Smith's Twitter, or J.P. LeBreton's if you want good examples of profoundly, outspokenly feminist AAA developers. I could name about a dozen others but those are the two most consistently excellent on this front.
There are of course exceptions - I can think of a couple very old studios that have entrenched and highly toxic cultures, but even those are rapidly changing. Sarkeesian's Tropes series accelerated a process that had already been ongoing for several years, and was enthusiastically embraced by virtually everyone I've ever worked with.
2) Marketing budgets are frequently significant multiples of development budget. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was $75 million to develop and $400 million spent on marketing. Until you've worked AAA you have no concept, just none whatsoever, how carefully fucking policed every single comment you make on social media or web forums will become. H.R., Production, Marketing all know what you are posting and where at all times - I got a scorching TAKE IT DOWN NOW nastygram in my inbox within 10 minutes once over an ill-considered comment while at home at 2:30AM and thank fucking Christ I could prove I'd thought better of it and deleted it before the timestamp on said nastygram. If your studio's owning corporation happens to be particularly lazy then it's only if your comments attract a bit of attention, but the end result is still utterly stifling.
Point is: the idea of any AAA developer that isn't a major name and founding partner making a strong statement like that without it being a deliberate, calculated move by Marketing is just a bad joke. I'm only even writing this comment since my indie career is going extremely well. Due in part to a desire to retain control of developers on numerous fronts - PR being one of many alongside reducing negotiating power - AAA publishers explicitly attempt to prevent their staff from even becoming names in the first place. Maintaining a public blog is strongly discouraged, and starting a new one is frequently met with implied threats of firing. The pool of big studio developers with the freedom to post their thoughts is generally dwindling even as the industry is mushrooming in size.
Oh, and:
3) Many of us are directly threatened by Gamer's Gate. Zoe Quinn used to live here in Boston which has an excellent and tight-knit Indie dev community, and while I haven't seen her at many events I know Brianna Wu is local and met her at one of Epic's Unreal Boston meetups last year.
I mention this because in the middle of The Black Glove's Kickstarter fucking Gamer's Gate somehow got their hands on one of their Skype contact lists (I think Zoe?) and started hacking their way through the network of contacts and contacts of contacts and a bunch of us on the team had to switch all our shit over to two-factor authentication as a direct result.
I could go on for pages but to the limited extent any are allowed AAA developers are outspoken about their opposition to Gamer's Gate, and you clearly haven't been paying attention. And no, they are not obvious, secret, or in any other way members of GG - the amount of ostracism I've witnessed rain down on a single QA person and junior Level Designer who speculated GG might have a valid point or two on an internal mailing list and a private Facebook group for AAA devs, respectively, were so total, so immediately overwhelming that this idea simply doesn't merit even a moment's consideration. There may be a couple exceptions out there, but as a reflection of the actual status of the industry your characterization is flatly the exact opposite of the truth.
posted by Ryvar at 2:07 AM on August 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
Women? No. So instead let's try for a woman:
Jade from Beyond Good & Evil is the obvious no-points-awarded answer.
Femshep is head-canon only, damn everything.
Ellie from The Last of Us, though her age conveniently excuses Joel (the male player character) continually undercutting her agency.
...Alyx and/or Chell, I guess? Maybe? First has a classic damsel in distress thing pop up periodically, latter is mute because Valve FPS protagonist.
Emily from Dishonored 2 will probably make the cut - Harvey Smith's one of the first and most outspokenly anti-misogynistic designers in the industry. Feminism is clearly a front and center issue for him, and he has Furiosa for working reference sufficiently in advance of his console certification deadline to calibrate her ingame presentation.
To be honest there's not a lot to draw on here, and nothing in the vein of traditional fantasy. The Witcher 3 is certainly one of the more progressive (or less atavistic) things I've played with a medieval motif in a long time, which is ironic considering Witcher 1 was probably the most misogynstic game I've ever played, period.
One thing I have been wondering is whether any "AAA" gamemaker has ever made a declaration in opposition to the public obscenity that is GamerGate. If not, could it be because they don't want to alienate a significant part of their audience, or do they not want to alienate their own creatives, many of whom are obviously strident (if anonymous) Gators?
Wow. Just...wow.
Couple things:
1) Game developers are categorically just about the most liberal, pro-social justice people you are likely to meet outside a Metafilter meetup or the Village Voice staff. Like, maybe half a rung down from that on account of general middle-class nerd obliviousness. Go check Harvey Smith's Twitter, or J.P. LeBreton's if you want good examples of profoundly, outspokenly feminist AAA developers. I could name about a dozen others but those are the two most consistently excellent on this front.
There are of course exceptions - I can think of a couple very old studios that have entrenched and highly toxic cultures, but even those are rapidly changing. Sarkeesian's Tropes series accelerated a process that had already been ongoing for several years, and was enthusiastically embraced by virtually everyone I've ever worked with.
2) Marketing budgets are frequently significant multiples of development budget. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 was $75 million to develop and $400 million spent on marketing. Until you've worked AAA you have no concept, just none whatsoever, how carefully fucking policed every single comment you make on social media or web forums will become. H.R., Production, Marketing all know what you are posting and where at all times - I got a scorching TAKE IT DOWN NOW nastygram in my inbox within 10 minutes once over an ill-considered comment while at home at 2:30AM and thank fucking Christ I could prove I'd thought better of it and deleted it before the timestamp on said nastygram. If your studio's owning corporation happens to be particularly lazy then it's only if your comments attract a bit of attention, but the end result is still utterly stifling.
Point is: the idea of any AAA developer that isn't a major name and founding partner making a strong statement like that without it being a deliberate, calculated move by Marketing is just a bad joke. I'm only even writing this comment since my indie career is going extremely well. Due in part to a desire to retain control of developers on numerous fronts - PR being one of many alongside reducing negotiating power - AAA publishers explicitly attempt to prevent their staff from even becoming names in the first place. Maintaining a public blog is strongly discouraged, and starting a new one is frequently met with implied threats of firing. The pool of big studio developers with the freedom to post their thoughts is generally dwindling even as the industry is mushrooming in size.
Oh, and:
3) Many of us are directly threatened by Gamer's Gate. Zoe Quinn used to live here in Boston which has an excellent and tight-knit Indie dev community, and while I haven't seen her at many events I know Brianna Wu is local and met her at one of Epic's Unreal Boston meetups last year.
I mention this because in the middle of The Black Glove's Kickstarter fucking Gamer's Gate somehow got their hands on one of their Skype contact lists (I think Zoe?) and started hacking their way through the network of contacts and contacts of contacts and a bunch of us on the team had to switch all our shit over to two-factor authentication as a direct result.
I could go on for pages but to the limited extent any are allowed AAA developers are outspoken about their opposition to Gamer's Gate, and you clearly haven't been paying attention. And no, they are not obvious, secret, or in any other way members of GG - the amount of ostracism I've witnessed rain down on a single QA person and junior Level Designer who speculated GG might have a valid point or two on an internal mailing list and a private Facebook group for AAA devs, respectively, were so total, so immediately overwhelming that this idea simply doesn't merit even a moment's consideration. There may be a couple exceptions out there, but as a reflection of the actual status of the industry your characterization is flatly the exact opposite of the truth.
posted by Ryvar at 2:07 AM on August 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
For people who don't know much about these games (or at least the pre-Witcher 3 ones), or who just want to see some good commentary on them, Super Bunnyhop did a three-part series on the games recently that's pretty good.
Part 1.
Part 2.
Part 3.
posted by sparkletone at 2:47 AM on August 21, 2015
Part 1.
Part 2.
Part 3.
posted by sparkletone at 2:47 AM on August 21, 2015
Oh, and she's in deathmarch crunch right now, but if I can swing it I'll try to get my fiancee (Producer, stayed in AAA after we were laid off last year) to write up her thoughts on all this...she might be tight-lipped for the usual reasons (#2 above), particularly this close to traditional Xmas cert & ship dates.
I won't presume to speak for her but I'm not anticipating a lot of disagreement on the major points: we talk state of the industry daily, and last debated the Witcher 3 and the general progress of that series about six hours ago.
posted by Ryvar at 3:00 AM on August 21, 2015
I won't presume to speak for her but I'm not anticipating a lot of disagreement on the major points: we talk state of the industry daily, and last debated the Witcher 3 and the general progress of that series about six hours ago.
posted by Ryvar at 3:00 AM on August 21, 2015
Her reaction started with a o_O and slowly turning her head sideways.
"Has this person actually met any game developers? Secret Gamer's Gate supporters? I mean, maybe some supported the whole revising games journalism payola/ethics angle, but all the anti-women shit it turned into? I'm not the most crazy-ultra-informed on this, but... are you sure they weren't joking?"
(Me) "Nah. I mentioned the whole tightly-policed-to-within-an-inch-of-our-fucking-lives PR aspect."
(Her) "Well maybe game publisher executives are secretly Gamer's Gate supporters then, hah! But actual developers? I mean statistically speaking there has to be a few game developers in the KKK, too. Take off your tinfoil hat, 9/11 was not an inside job, vaccines don't cause autism, and the whole GMO food thing isn't necessarily what you think. Just post that, I've got spreadsheets waiting."
posted by Ryvar at 4:24 AM on August 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Has this person actually met any game developers? Secret Gamer's Gate supporters? I mean, maybe some supported the whole revising games journalism payola/ethics angle, but all the anti-women shit it turned into? I'm not the most crazy-ultra-informed on this, but... are you sure they weren't joking?"
(Me) "Nah. I mentioned the whole tightly-policed-to-within-an-inch-of-our-fucking-lives PR aspect."
(Her) "Well maybe game publisher executives are secretly Gamer's Gate supporters then, hah! But actual developers? I mean statistically speaking there has to be a few game developers in the KKK, too. Take off your tinfoil hat, 9/11 was not an inside job, vaccines don't cause autism, and the whole GMO food thing isn't necessarily what you think. Just post that, I've got spreadsheets waiting."
posted by Ryvar at 4:24 AM on August 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
Not being facetious: Can you point me to a game where you think women's roles are fairly fleshed out?
The only game I play on my puny netbook is AdventureQuest Worlds, where gender and armor are purely cosmetic (so my character can wear a court dress and a pretty tiara and it'll be exactly as protective as a plate armor and helm), but it's mostly because I'd rather be reading comics or watching anime. I mentioned Claymore before (anime OP here), but the behemoth of grim dark fantasy is Berserk (OVA OP that shows manga characters that don't appear in the OVAs), which for an ultraviolent series that has been running since the 1980s doesn't treat its women characters too shabbily (although much has been discussed about the narrative treatment of Casca). Hell, if you allow guns, even Attack on Titan (Ob Guren no Yumiya) does women characters better than Western videogames.
Which is why I don't get my entertainment from videogames \(º3º)/
posted by sukeban at 6:29 AM on August 21, 2015
The only game I play on my puny netbook is AdventureQuest Worlds, where gender and armor are purely cosmetic (so my character can wear a court dress and a pretty tiara and it'll be exactly as protective as a plate armor and helm), but it's mostly because I'd rather be reading comics or watching anime. I mentioned Claymore before (anime OP here), but the behemoth of grim dark fantasy is Berserk (OVA OP that shows manga characters that don't appear in the OVAs), which for an ultraviolent series that has been running since the 1980s doesn't treat its women characters too shabbily (although much has been discussed about the narrative treatment of Casca). Hell, if you allow guns, even Attack on Titan (Ob Guren no Yumiya) does women characters better than Western videogames.
Which is why I don't get my entertainment from videogames \(º3º)/
posted by sukeban at 6:29 AM on August 21, 2015
Ryvar: "Ellie from The Last of Us, though her age conveniently excuses Joel (the male player character) continually undercutting her agency."
Hah! I have no idea how I didn't think of this. I'd say that all the female characters in The Last of Us were treated quite well. I wish there were more of them, but they felt grounded in reality and neither the dialogue nor acting/animation ever made me roll my eyes. (Uuuuugh want to play it again now thanks!)
I never tried the Uncharted series myself, but from what I've heard they're very decent gender-treatment-wise. Naughty Dog is a studio I've come to hold in fairly high regard, for a lot of things.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:08 PM on August 21, 2015
Hah! I have no idea how I didn't think of this. I'd say that all the female characters in The Last of Us were treated quite well. I wish there were more of them, but they felt grounded in reality and neither the dialogue nor acting/animation ever made me roll my eyes. (Uuuuugh want to play it again now thanks!)
I never tried the Uncharted series myself, but from what I've heard they're very decent gender-treatment-wise. Naughty Dog is a studio I've come to hold in fairly high regard, for a lot of things.
posted by erratic meatsack at 12:08 PM on August 21, 2015
Ryvar: Not to split hairs, but Gamer's Gate (now called GamersGate AB) is a direct-download retailler in Sweden that's been around for roughly 9 years.
Gamer's Gate has publicly disavowed having any association with "GamerGate", the misogynist movement which got its name from a hashtag tweet by Adam Baldwin.
posted by Smart Dalek at 12:18 PM on August 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Gamer's Gate has publicly disavowed having any association with "GamerGate", the misogynist movement which got its name from a hashtag tweet by Adam Baldwin.
posted by Smart Dalek at 12:18 PM on August 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
I never tried the Uncharted series myself, but from what I've heard they're very decent gender-treatment-wise. Naughty Dog is a studio I've come to hold in fairly high regard, for a lot of things.
posted by erratic meatsack at 3:08 PM
Uncharted is a fantastic series (Uncharted 2 in particular is roughly Mass Effect 2-grade mandatory, IMHO), but if you're looking for a character on par with Tess I think you'll come away disappointed. Still way better than most games, but given the prop/male gaze vibe I left off Elena and Chloe intentionally - maybe was too cautious but check the first seven minutes and judge for yourself.
Smart Dalek: you're completely right. Egg all over my face. This is what comes of posting during project builds after pulling an all-nighter. Sincerely appreciate you pointing it out.
posted by Ryvar at 1:43 PM on August 21, 2015
posted by erratic meatsack at 3:08 PM
Uncharted is a fantastic series (Uncharted 2 in particular is roughly Mass Effect 2-grade mandatory, IMHO), but if you're looking for a character on par with Tess I think you'll come away disappointed. Still way better than most games, but given the prop/male gaze vibe I left off Elena and Chloe intentionally - maybe was too cautious but check the first seven minutes and judge for yourself.
Smart Dalek: you're completely right. Egg all over my face. This is what comes of posting during project builds after pulling an all-nighter. Sincerely appreciate you pointing it out.
posted by Ryvar at 1:43 PM on August 21, 2015
Ryvar: "...maybe was too cautious but check the first seven minutes and judge for yourself ."
Hm this isn't too terrible I guess let's just keep wat- OH. Well. Yep. Is the third one any better? Maybe the 4th one will be..?
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:59 PM on August 21, 2015
Hm this isn't too terrible I guess let's just keep wat- OH. Well. Yep. Is the third one any better? Maybe the 4th one will be..?
posted by erratic meatsack at 4:59 PM on August 21, 2015
jeff-o-matic Can you point me to a game where you think women's roles are fairly fleshed out?
There are some problematic characters in The Secret World, but a lot of the women, particularly on the Illuminati path, are really well developed characters. Especially if you take the time to go through all their dialogue options, and KG is a major player and fan favorite.
posted by yeolcoatl at 9:46 AM on August 22, 2015
There are some problematic characters in The Secret World, but a lot of the women, particularly on the Illuminati path, are really well developed characters. Especially if you take the time to go through all their dialogue options, and KG is a major player and fan favorite.
posted by yeolcoatl at 9:46 AM on August 22, 2015
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I can't wait. God, I can't wait.
posted by mrdaneri at 11:56 AM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]