The NFL's current mantra -making football safer - is silly and pointless
August 20, 2015 3:59 PM Subscribe
"Based on that definition, how many concussions do you think you've had?" she asked. Borland paused. "I don't know, 30?" he said finally. "Yeah, I think 30's a good estimate."
With youth football enrollment in decline, increased research expenditures to make football safer, and further troubling developments with former players, Chris Borland's high profile retirement after a promising rookie season seemed to mark a turning point for the NFL (previously).
We trailed Borland for five months as he embarked on a journey that drove him deeper into the NFL's concussion crisis and forced him to confront the sport in ways he avoided while playing. [ESPN; warning, autoplaying video]
CTE and the NFL on Metafilter previously 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
With youth football enrollment in decline, increased research expenditures to make football safer, and further troubling developments with former players, Chris Borland's high profile retirement after a promising rookie season seemed to mark a turning point for the NFL (previously).
We trailed Borland for five months as he embarked on a journey that drove him deeper into the NFL's concussion crisis and forced him to confront the sport in ways he avoided while playing. [ESPN; warning, autoplaying video]
CTE and the NFL on Metafilter previously 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Hail Emporor, we who are about to get brain damaged salute you! Just doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:24 PM on August 20, 2015
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:24 PM on August 20, 2015
Have you ever watched rugby? It's as rough as football except no one wears any protective gear.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:31 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:31 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I made the decision a couple years ago that I couldn't ethically watch football anymore. I was never a huge fan (growing up in St. Louis in the 70s and 80s will do that to you) but I do miss it at playoff time. But the culture of football is antithetical to what I believe in, and the exploitation of those who play it is unconscionable.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:35 PM on August 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:35 PM on August 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Have you ever watched rugby? It's as rough as football except no one wears any protective gear.
Yeah but they don't use their heads as battering rams. Much like bare fisted boxing versus gloved boxing, the glove allows you to hit harder and do more damage. Putting your head in a well padded can allows you to ram into people with your head in a way you can't without the protection.
posted by doctor_negative at 4:39 PM on August 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's as rough as football except no one wears any protective gear.
I've never played either, but that I've been told by those who have that while rugby looks as rough, the lack of protective gear means that it's much more difficult to slam into someone super-hard without being hurt in a way that immediately affects your ability to stay on the field. In addition, you're not allowed to make tackles using your legs with your head driving toward the other person. Taken together, this means that rugby hits tend not to be as frequently concussion-causing as they are in the NFL.
On the other hand, you probably see a lot more bloody noses and ears.
(on preview: jinx with doctor_negative.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:42 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've never played either, but that I've been told by those who have that while rugby looks as rough, the lack of protective gear means that it's much more difficult to slam into someone super-hard without being hurt in a way that immediately affects your ability to stay on the field. In addition, you're not allowed to make tackles using your legs with your head driving toward the other person. Taken together, this means that rugby hits tend not to be as frequently concussion-causing as they are in the NFL.
On the other hand, you probably see a lot more bloody noses and ears.
(on preview: jinx with doctor_negative.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:42 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, Rugby's got its own concussion and CTE issues.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:45 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 4:45 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah but they don't use their heads as battering rams.
The long term future of all pro sports where contact is either part of the game or incidental are in question. Baseball, hockey, basketball, soccer, rugby, probably even cricket. Rugby's really in no better position that American football.
posted by MillMan at 4:48 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The long term future of all pro sports where contact is either part of the game or incidental are in question. Baseball, hockey, basketball, soccer, rugby, probably even cricket. Rugby's really in no better position that American football.
posted by MillMan at 4:48 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Like a few others here, I've sworn off football. I did pretty good last season, until playoff time.
Yesterday my wife announced that the boss had given her four tickets to a preseason game at Levi's Stadium this weekend and did I want to go? Because she could give them away. This is how weak I am. We're going. I want to see the parking lot and the stadium and the crowd and even the pro football, which I've never seen live.
How many other atrocities am I complicit in? I can calculate my carbon footprint pretty easily. My energy consumption. Water. What about my human suffering footprint? If I refrain from the shrimp cocktail, maybe it's a wash.
posted by notyou at 4:53 PM on August 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yesterday my wife announced that the boss had given her four tickets to a preseason game at Levi's Stadium this weekend and did I want to go? Because she could give them away. This is how weak I am. We're going. I want to see the parking lot and the stadium and the crowd and even the pro football, which I've never seen live.
How many other atrocities am I complicit in? I can calculate my carbon footprint pretty easily. My energy consumption. Water. What about my human suffering footprint? If I refrain from the shrimp cocktail, maybe it's a wash.
posted by notyou at 4:53 PM on August 20, 2015 [8 favorites]
Where American Football is facing an issue is in the routine impacts. That's what Borland is talking about:
The concussion that led Borland to retire came on a routine play, and that's precisely his point: Unlike riding a bike or driving a car, where head injuries occur by accident, in football the danger increases by doing everything right. During a preseason practice, he stuffed the lead blocker, 6-foot-4, 293-pound fullback Will Tukuafu. Borland -- 5 inches shorter and 50 pounds lighter -- buried the crown of his helmet into Tukuafu's chin and stood him up. He walked away dazed for several minutes. He began to wonder how many times his brain would be subjected to the same injury and what the lasting effect might be.
Notice, this isn't a tackle. It's a blocking situation. Borland has to take out the lead blocker so another defender can make the tackle. There is basically no way that I can see to have football as we know it without that sort of play being routine, blocking happens every single down and head contact is going to happen. You can, and they mostly have, fix the rules about tackling with the helmet. How to make blocking consistently more safe is a lot harder.
I can imagine soccer without headers, it would not be nearly as entertaining, but I can't imagine football without blocking at all. It would have to be flag football, which is a different game really. I would still watch the Eagles flag football team though. I'm here for life, ethical or no.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:56 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
The concussion that led Borland to retire came on a routine play, and that's precisely his point: Unlike riding a bike or driving a car, where head injuries occur by accident, in football the danger increases by doing everything right. During a preseason practice, he stuffed the lead blocker, 6-foot-4, 293-pound fullback Will Tukuafu. Borland -- 5 inches shorter and 50 pounds lighter -- buried the crown of his helmet into Tukuafu's chin and stood him up. He walked away dazed for several minutes. He began to wonder how many times his brain would be subjected to the same injury and what the lasting effect might be.
Notice, this isn't a tackle. It's a blocking situation. Borland has to take out the lead blocker so another defender can make the tackle. There is basically no way that I can see to have football as we know it without that sort of play being routine, blocking happens every single down and head contact is going to happen. You can, and they mostly have, fix the rules about tackling with the helmet. How to make blocking consistently more safe is a lot harder.
I can imagine soccer without headers, it would not be nearly as entertaining, but I can't imagine football without blocking at all. It would have to be flag football, which is a different game really. I would still watch the Eagles flag football team though. I'm here for life, ethical or no.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:56 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
Professional Flag Football would be an awesome game! There'd be lots of different selection pressures: players would be lighter weight, with longer arms. Tactics would completely transform. Play would be much more fluid with no blocking, more like Rugby. I'd pay to see that.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:08 PM on August 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 5:08 PM on August 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
Professional Flag Football would be an awesome game!
I've thought this many times and I really wish it would happen, but it won't ever. But it would really be great.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:11 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've thought this many times and I really wish it would happen, but it won't ever. But it would really be great.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:11 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mean it would be great until there was enough money to sink it down the shithole like every other professional sport, but there could be a brief window.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:12 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 5:12 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
The concussion issue is going to have an amazing side effect: The United States will inevitably become the world's premier soccer powerhouse. I'm predicting that it reaches the World Cup finals in 2022, and then after that, the U.S. team never falls out of the top 3 ranked countries in the world.
The US already dominates the women's game, and I assert it's because, in the U.S., the world's third-most populous country, there's no other sport that draws top female competitors away from soccer in the same way American football draws American men away from soccer. In addition, the easiest way for schools to comply with Title IX was by creating and funding soccer teams, simply because of the relative team size required. Population plus opportunity equals Carli Lloyd's hat trick.
Similarly, American parents will start steering boys toward "safe" sports, and soccer training budgets will rise accordingly.
Buh-bye, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, France, Brazil ...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:17 PM on August 20, 2015 [21 favorites]
The US already dominates the women's game, and I assert it's because, in the U.S., the world's third-most populous country, there's no other sport that draws top female competitors away from soccer in the same way American football draws American men away from soccer. In addition, the easiest way for schools to comply with Title IX was by creating and funding soccer teams, simply because of the relative team size required. Population plus opportunity equals Carli Lloyd's hat trick.
Similarly, American parents will start steering boys toward "safe" sports, and soccer training budgets will rise accordingly.
Buh-bye, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, France, Brazil ...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:17 PM on August 20, 2015 [21 favorites]
Early in the article, the author's states that it's a clash of "opposing views" when a "trivial activity so violent that it strips away our humanity" is a "cherished American tradition". That's only a contradiction while you embrace the feel-good fiction of our country's goodness and refuse to honestly admit the reality of our national values.
posted by buzzv at 5:21 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by buzzv at 5:21 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
You could just make blocking like a ruck in rugby where you can't leave your feet and you have to be bound to a teammate or an opponent. You also have to be between the hips and shoulders for contact - both offense and defense.
posted by JPD at 5:28 PM on August 20, 2015
posted by JPD at 5:28 PM on August 20, 2015
It's brutal, beautiful, graceful, powerful, unpredictable human chess. What's not to like? Err, aside from the obvious.
posted by Drinky Die at 5:41 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 5:41 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
An acquaintance that is an EE Professor at Purdue did a study a few years ago where they placed sensors in the helmets of the offensive line of a local high school football team. They were looking to track concussions but not one kid suffered a concussion during the season. Every kid still failed the post-season cognitive evaluation though. They had all suffered damage from just the normal hits. The good news is that six weeks after the end of the season they had all regained their normal cognitive function. The bad news is that as you get older you probably don't recover all the way back to your normal.
posted by COD at 5:45 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by COD at 5:45 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
The United States will inevitably become the world's premier soccer powerhouse. I'm predicting that it reaches the World Cup finals in 2022, and then after that, the U.S. team never falls out of the top 3 ranked countries in the world.
I'll take that bet.
posted by librosegretti at 6:11 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'll take that bet.
posted by librosegretti at 6:11 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Here in the Tampa Bay Area it's become very easy to ignore the NFL since the Bucs drafted alleged rapist and human train wreck Jameis Winston. I believe we've hit peak football and with youth football in decline it's just a matter of time before it becomes a marginalized freak-show of a sport similar to boxing.
posted by photoslob at 6:17 PM on August 20, 2015
posted by photoslob at 6:17 PM on August 20, 2015
yay! optimum outcome! [current neurological status aggrevated by football injury]
posted by mrdaneri at 6:22 PM on August 20, 2015
posted by mrdaneri at 6:22 PM on August 20, 2015
I gave up on the NFL last year; it was tough for a couple of weeks and surprisingly easy after that. The only game I watched after the Ray Rice shit hit the fan was the Super Bowl, because I'd been invited to a party.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:46 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:46 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I think I watched less than half of the Eagles games last year, and I'm hoping I can get by with less than that this year. I also said goodbye to fantasy football, including the league I ran for 13 years with my college friends. I was already steering more of my sports fandom budget away from the NFL, college football, and NHL toward MLB before the problems with those leagues were getting the coverage they are now, so it's been surprisingly easy to find other stuff to do. I can't quite go cold turkey, but hopefully over time either these leagues will take serious action to resolve their problems or I'll get past that threshold where I care about them at all.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:58 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 6:58 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe rather than flag football, we should make a game where you aren't allowed to run. Full contact, but no player's velocity relative to the ground can exceed 1.5 yards/s. Would this help with the concussion problem?
posted by vogon_poet at 7:32 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by vogon_poet at 7:32 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
honestly admit the reality of our national values.
Who was it that said "baseball is who we were, football is what we have become"?
posted by BinGregory at 7:34 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
Who was it that said "baseball is who we were, football is what we have become"?
posted by BinGregory at 7:34 PM on August 20, 2015 [11 favorites]
That gets attributed to Mary McGrory.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:41 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:41 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe rather than flag football, we should make a game where you aren't allowed to run. Full contact, but no player's velocity relative to the ground can exceed 1.5 yards/s.
That's called "sumo wrestling."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:45 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's called "sumo wrestling."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:45 PM on August 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Pro Football can honestly die in a ditch somewhere. It's basically a moneymaking machine that is completely possible by the funnelling of vast amounts of unpaid labor in the form of young amateur athletes into a system that takes only the cream of the crop and discards everything else.
Pee-wee football feeds into High School Football where serious injuries are still pretty commonplace and only a small fraction of whom will get college scholarships. College athletes are relentlessly exploited by the NCAA as a massive money maker even though CTE can dramatically reduce cognitive functionality. At the end of that a small percentage of those college athletes will have a professional career and the majority of those will not be elite players with multi-million dollar contracts. Most will just play professionally for a short period of time for something around the league minimum and most will be functionally broke soon after their playing career ends.
Basically it's a great big ponzi scheme.
posted by vuron at 7:50 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Pee-wee football feeds into High School Football where serious injuries are still pretty commonplace and only a small fraction of whom will get college scholarships. College athletes are relentlessly exploited by the NCAA as a massive money maker even though CTE can dramatically reduce cognitive functionality. At the end of that a small percentage of those college athletes will have a professional career and the majority of those will not be elite players with multi-million dollar contracts. Most will just play professionally for a short period of time for something around the league minimum and most will be functionally broke soon after their playing career ends.
Basically it's a great big ponzi scheme.
posted by vuron at 7:50 PM on August 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
End substitutions. You go on the field once. You leave the field. You do NOT get back on the field until the next game.
Problem solved.
posted by ocschwar at 7:58 PM on August 20, 2015
Problem solved.
posted by ocschwar at 7:58 PM on August 20, 2015
I have a friend who's an NFL medical staffer. I've talked to him about the whole concussion thing. One thing he notes is that virtually none of these players would give it up... Even knowing the dangers. They are at the pinnacle, and its big fame and big money. They've been on that road for a long time.
Increasingly, I think it's a ridiculous sport - maybe as much spectacle as sport. The level at which colleges are now co-opted is astounding. (Full disclosure: I'm an alum of a university with a huge football tradition. Maybe the most storied... And hypocritically watch a few games each year).
What really makes me cringe is seeing a park full of Junior Concussion Ball boys out at practice. Saw some the other day - maybe 8-10 year olds. Big honking helmets on their soft young heads. Like oranges on toothpicks. And I'm sure their parents think those helmets protect them from concussion- but from what I gather it's not impact that's the problem. It's the rapid change in direction where inertia rattles the brain inside the skull that's the danger. Helmets may help, but can't stop that.
posted by ecorrocio at 8:03 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Increasingly, I think it's a ridiculous sport - maybe as much spectacle as sport. The level at which colleges are now co-opted is astounding. (Full disclosure: I'm an alum of a university with a huge football tradition. Maybe the most storied... And hypocritically watch a few games each year).
What really makes me cringe is seeing a park full of Junior Concussion Ball boys out at practice. Saw some the other day - maybe 8-10 year olds. Big honking helmets on their soft young heads. Like oranges on toothpicks. And I'm sure their parents think those helmets protect them from concussion- but from what I gather it's not impact that's the problem. It's the rapid change in direction where inertia rattles the brain inside the skull that's the danger. Helmets may help, but can't stop that.
posted by ecorrocio at 8:03 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I got to see Australian Rules Football recently, and frankly I'm turning my fandom over to that. Fewer concussions and far more athleticism required.
posted by rednikki at 9:18 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 9:18 PM on August 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
COD: An acquaintance that is an EE Professor at Purdue did a study a few years ago where they placed sensors in the helmets of the offensive line of a local high school football team. They were looking to track concussions but not one kid suffered a concussion during the season. Every kid still failed the post-season cognitive evaluation though. They had all suffered damage from just the normal hits. The good news is that six weeks after the end of the season they had all regained their normal cognitive function. The bad news is that as you get older you probably don't recover all the way back to your normal.
Even if you completely regain all of your cognitive function in the long term, the fact that it causes significant depression of it is sufficient to eliminate it as a sport that should be played by students. You sort of need your cognitive function for that.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:23 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Even if you completely regain all of your cognitive function in the long term, the fact that it causes significant depression of it is sufficient to eliminate it as a sport that should be played by students. You sort of need your cognitive function for that.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:23 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here in the Tampa Bay Area it's become very easy to ignore the NFL since the Bucs drafted alleged rapist and human train wreck Jameis Winston. I believe we've hit peak football and with youth football in decline it's just a matter of time before it becomes a marginalized freak-show of a sport similar to boxing.
Don't hold your breath on that. The only thing that will kill pro sports is some sort of William Gibson level virtual reality, which makes all current forms of entertainment look stone age in comparison. Of course, that will also kill off film, television, music, you name it, unless you can interact with it, that is. Until then, the public will continue to woof down as much NFL as they can get, especially gamblers.
And the comments about flag football really did make me laugh, sorry, and I'm not even that big a sports fan.
posted by Beholder at 10:18 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't hold your breath on that. The only thing that will kill pro sports is some sort of William Gibson level virtual reality, which makes all current forms of entertainment look stone age in comparison. Of course, that will also kill off film, television, music, you name it, unless you can interact with it, that is. Until then, the public will continue to woof down as much NFL as they can get, especially gamblers.
And the comments about flag football really did make me laugh, sorry, and I'm not even that big a sports fan.
posted by Beholder at 10:18 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Interesting. I don't think anyone on this thread has acknowledged or even noticed that sports, even football, can be fun. Or educational. Or important to the joy and appreciation of life.
I'm not an athlete by any means, but it's interesting and fascinating that only the negatives are perceived.
posted by effugas at 10:20 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm not an athlete by any means, but it's interesting and fascinating that only the negatives are perceived.
posted by effugas at 10:20 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
End substitutions. You go on the field once. You leave the field. You do NOT get back on the field until the next game.
This is how soccer works. What happens in practice is that players will get concussed or even fully knocked out, come out of the game briefly, then go back in. (This happened in the World Cup final last year. The guy who got a concussion actually asked the ref at one point if it was true he was playing in the final. Even after that, he played on for another 15 minutes or so.)
posted by asterix at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is how soccer works. What happens in practice is that players will get concussed or even fully knocked out, come out of the game briefly, then go back in. (This happened in the World Cup final last year. The guy who got a concussion actually asked the ref at one point if it was true he was playing in the final. Even after that, he played on for another 15 minutes or so.)
posted by asterix at 10:35 PM on August 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I believe we've hit peak football and with youth football in decline it's just a matter of time before it becomes a marginalized freak-show of a sport similar to boxing.
I think the danger of boxing probably had less its decline in the U.S. than (among other factors) the rise of football...
posted by atoxyl at 10:38 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the danger of boxing probably had less its decline in the U.S. than (among other factors) the rise of football...
posted by atoxyl at 10:38 PM on August 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Like a lot of people, I have a degree from a football team (with an attached university). The head coach there is the highest paid employee of the state, the stadium is huge, and football dominates everything right down the huge staff that exists to provide services exclusively to the athletes to help get them through everything that isn't football. Yes, of course they special tutors, but they also have special everything else. They don't even buy their own textbooks, support staff does that.
I can see a world without college football, but I've got to use the Hubble Space Telescope to do it.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 10:43 PM on August 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
I can see a world without college football, but I've got to use the Hubble Space Telescope to do it.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 10:43 PM on August 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
Football is a violent sport, yes. But it's also one of the most insanely tactical games that exists. The amount of things going on in a single play is so vast that coaches can't really tell what all went on until they've looked at the film over and over. Did a lineman miss his block? Did he release to the second level too early? Did the linebacker take the correct gap? Did the receiver run his route correctly? Did the quarterback make the right choice on the read option? Did the cornerback keep his guy to the outside? The list goes on and on and on, and that's nearly every single play.
The problem is that you can't keep this level of tactical cat and mouse without the violence. A great deal of football is the blocking and beating those blocks. You're trying to move someone against their will and they're trying to get past you before you can do that. That's the challenge on every run, on every pass play - I'm going to make you stop me and I'll physically fight you to keep you from stopping me. If you're playing flag football, then yes you have the running and the passing and the interceptions and so forth, but you lose the tactical scheming that the game has. (If you want to find the smartest guys on a football team, you're going to find them on the offensive line, the guys that are key to the game's schemes.) This is why I think football isn't going to be able to evolve its way out of the concussion issue.
Football will still be a viable sport for a long time. It may lose popularity, however, it will be there and it will still make money. Part of why football will be viable for a while is that, well, it's fun. You're taking teenage boys and young men and giving them a game where they're hitting each other hard - you can't really expect them to want to stop that very easily, since boys will be boys. I used to play a lot of football as a kid and I loved it. How long that interest will stay is the question. Soccer's rise is slow, but it's been steady and the sustained interest the sport has gained can't be ignored. It will still be a while before it overtakes football. It's going to happen from the bottom up, as parents decide to steer their kids into other sports, particularly soccer, instead of football. We'll eventually come to a point where the best athletes out there are running around the pitch instead of donning shoulder pads and a helmet... it's just going to take time. A lot of time.
posted by azpenguin at 10:50 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
The problem is that you can't keep this level of tactical cat and mouse without the violence. A great deal of football is the blocking and beating those blocks. You're trying to move someone against their will and they're trying to get past you before you can do that. That's the challenge on every run, on every pass play - I'm going to make you stop me and I'll physically fight you to keep you from stopping me. If you're playing flag football, then yes you have the running and the passing and the interceptions and so forth, but you lose the tactical scheming that the game has. (If you want to find the smartest guys on a football team, you're going to find them on the offensive line, the guys that are key to the game's schemes.) This is why I think football isn't going to be able to evolve its way out of the concussion issue.
Football will still be a viable sport for a long time. It may lose popularity, however, it will be there and it will still make money. Part of why football will be viable for a while is that, well, it's fun. You're taking teenage boys and young men and giving them a game where they're hitting each other hard - you can't really expect them to want to stop that very easily, since boys will be boys. I used to play a lot of football as a kid and I loved it. How long that interest will stay is the question. Soccer's rise is slow, but it's been steady and the sustained interest the sport has gained can't be ignored. It will still be a while before it overtakes football. It's going to happen from the bottom up, as parents decide to steer their kids into other sports, particularly soccer, instead of football. We'll eventually come to a point where the best athletes out there are running around the pitch instead of donning shoulder pads and a helmet... it's just going to take time. A lot of time.
posted by azpenguin at 10:50 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Interesting. I don't think anyone on this thread has acknowledged or even noticed that sports, even football, can be fun. Or educational. Or important to the joy and appreciation of life.
Well, I'm not going to defend any specific sport, but I'll defend sport as a concept. There is definitely something special about seeing the best athletes in the world doing their thing, just like seeing the best dancers or best architects, or best anything. Every year my July is basically dominated by marathon Tour de France viewing, so I think I can relate to what you're saying.
BUT, I am convinced that watching the pros should be a bit like the dessert course of a meal. It's a nice, slightly indulgent extra but it shouldn't be the main course. Sport should mostly be a participatory thing, not a viewing thing. I loathe golf, but at least most golf fans apparently play as well as watch. I watch bike racing, but I also put in the miles on my bike.
Virtually nobody over the age of 25, or even 18, plays football. In comparison to soccer, with a zillion local clubs and pickup games, or basketball, it doesn't really feel like a sport to me as much as a sort of athletic spectacle.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 10:55 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Well, I'm not going to defend any specific sport, but I'll defend sport as a concept. There is definitely something special about seeing the best athletes in the world doing their thing, just like seeing the best dancers or best architects, or best anything. Every year my July is basically dominated by marathon Tour de France viewing, so I think I can relate to what you're saying.
BUT, I am convinced that watching the pros should be a bit like the dessert course of a meal. It's a nice, slightly indulgent extra but it shouldn't be the main course. Sport should mostly be a participatory thing, not a viewing thing. I loathe golf, but at least most golf fans apparently play as well as watch. I watch bike racing, but I also put in the miles on my bike.
Virtually nobody over the age of 25, or even 18, plays football. In comparison to soccer, with a zillion local clubs and pickup games, or basketball, it doesn't really feel like a sport to me as much as a sort of athletic spectacle.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 10:55 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Interesting. I don't think anyone on this thread has acknowledged or even noticed that sports, even football, can be fun. Or educational. Or important to the joy and appreciation of life.
Is this some kind of deadpan joke that just isn't landing for me? From the very first comment, and sprinkled throughout the thread, many commenters have acknowledged that they currently watch football or have in the past. Some of those commenters, including myself, have expressed a desire to watch less of it, in part due to traumatic brain injury that makes it harder to watch it in good conscience. But clearly, many football fans have participated in this thread.
Given this, do you seriously think not one of those people "even noticed that sports, even football, can be fun?" Does something so obvious need to be expressly called out, or can we just assume that and talk about the aspects that aren't blindingly obvious? Of course sports are fun, but when there's evidence that some of them are hurting the people who play them in life-altering and in some cases life-ending ways, some of us find it hard to enjoy them quite as much as we used to.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:00 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Is this some kind of deadpan joke that just isn't landing for me? From the very first comment, and sprinkled throughout the thread, many commenters have acknowledged that they currently watch football or have in the past. Some of those commenters, including myself, have expressed a desire to watch less of it, in part due to traumatic brain injury that makes it harder to watch it in good conscience. But clearly, many football fans have participated in this thread.
Given this, do you seriously think not one of those people "even noticed that sports, even football, can be fun?" Does something so obvious need to be expressly called out, or can we just assume that and talk about the aspects that aren't blindingly obvious? Of course sports are fun, but when there's evidence that some of them are hurting the people who play them in life-altering and in some cases life-ending ways, some of us find it hard to enjoy them quite as much as we used to.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:00 PM on August 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
since boys will be boys.
It seems to me that this is really what some Metapeople despise about American football.
posted by three blind mice at 11:46 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
It seems to me that this is really what some Metapeople despise about American football.
posted by three blind mice at 11:46 PM on August 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
American football is built on stupidly specific specialisation. You have a team for offence and a completely separate team for defence and possibly a separate team for special plays like goal kicks.
It's illegal for the offensive linesman to catch a ball or to advance 2 yards past the scrimmage line. His only job is to hit the opposing player. It's ridiculous.
Meanwhile in Rugby is their anything more glorious than the front row prop in full flight heading for a try?
posted by PenDevil at 12:16 AM on August 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
It's illegal for the offensive linesman to catch a ball or to advance 2 yards past the scrimmage line. His only job is to hit the opposing player. It's ridiculous.
Meanwhile in Rugby is their anything more glorious than the front row prop in full flight heading for a try?
posted by PenDevil at 12:16 AM on August 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
Rugby is seeing similar declines in youth takeup because they continue to put money and winning above taking concussion seriously.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:21 AM on August 21, 2015
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:21 AM on August 21, 2015
I've decided I won't spend any money on football. No games, no gear, etc. I have some deeply personal reasons I can't wholly give up football right now. Maybe I can get there in the future.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:53 AM on August 21, 2015
posted by persona au gratin at 2:53 AM on August 21, 2015
asterix: if they come out of the game at all.
And heading the ball is really bad for the brain and causes CTE.
Soccer is not an ethical alternative to football if concussions are your main concern.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:55 AM on August 21, 2015
And heading the ball is really bad for the brain and causes CTE.
Soccer is not an ethical alternative to football if concussions are your main concern.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:55 AM on August 21, 2015
Every sport (or even physical activity) has a potential for concussions. The "ethical" part only come in place if kids are taught perfect form to avoid them, and if coaches ignore the signs.
posted by lmfsilva at 3:40 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by lmfsilva at 3:40 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
American football is built on stupidly specific specialisation.
Chess is built on stupidly specific specialization. You have some guys to move forward, some guys to move diagonal, and even some guys to go in like a weird L-shape. It's illegal for pawns to capture opponent's pieces by moving forward and the most important piece in the game is the most helpless.
I certainly hope a game like soccer does not take over this country. That game is the most boring, banal, waste of a seemingly arbitrary amount of time.
posted by King Bee at 3:45 AM on August 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Chess is built on stupidly specific specialization. You have some guys to move forward, some guys to move diagonal, and even some guys to go in like a weird L-shape. It's illegal for pawns to capture opponent's pieces by moving forward and the most important piece in the game is the most helpless.
I certainly hope a game like soccer does not take over this country. That game is the most boring, banal, waste of a seemingly arbitrary amount of time.
posted by King Bee at 3:45 AM on August 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Didn't more Americans watch the Women's WC final this year than the Super Bowl?
posted by Brocktoon at 4:09 AM on August 21, 2015
posted by Brocktoon at 4:09 AM on August 21, 2015
Yeah, you'll need a cite for that one.
posted by notyou at 4:31 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by notyou at 4:31 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Stanley Cup and Nba Finals:
http://www.sbnation.com/2015/7/6/8900299/more-americans-watched-the-womens-world-cup-final-than-the-nba-finals
The Super Bowl is still the big dog at ~115 million.
posted by mfu at 4:41 AM on August 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
http://www.sbnation.com/2015/7/6/8900299/more-americans-watched-the-womens-world-cup-final-than-the-nba-finals
The Super Bowl is still the big dog at ~115 million.
posted by mfu at 4:41 AM on August 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Virtually nobody over the age of 25, or even 18, plays football. In comparison to soccer, with a zillion local clubs and pickup games, or basketball, it doesn't really feel like a sport to me as much as a sort of athletic spectacle.
That would be news to my co-workers who go out and play flag-football at lunch a couple of times a week on the field across from our building. There's also a league here and in lots of cities. From the league's FAQ, it says that the oldest current player is 57.
posted by octothorpe at 4:52 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
That would be news to my co-workers who go out and play flag-football at lunch a couple of times a week on the field across from our building. There's also a league here and in lots of cities. From the league's FAQ, it says that the oldest current player is 57.
posted by octothorpe at 4:52 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Where do you draw the line between football and similarly damaging non-sports professions? My wife's back and knees are effed up from 20 years of rolling on the floor with dogs and bending into cages as a veterinary technician, and my stepfather gave up carpentry partly because of the toll it was taking on his body. Programmers get carpal tunnel, lifeguards get skin cancer. That's not even mentioning things like coal mining or oil refining. I'm not trying to "gotcha" anybody here, it's a genuine question.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:55 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 4:55 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Football is America's Horcrux.
posted by dry white toast at 5:29 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dry white toast at 5:29 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
@King Bee
That must be why football (the proper kind, with a round ball that you kick) is the world's most popular sport. But 250 million players and a couple of billion spectators are all wrong, and you're right.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 5:36 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
That must be why football (the proper kind, with a round ball that you kick) is the world's most popular sport. But 250 million players and a couple of billion spectators are all wrong, and you're right.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 5:36 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
I believe we've hit peak football
Super Bowls account for the 21 most-watched programs in American TV history in terms of total audience.[1]
Most-Watched TV Programs, Total Viewers
Super Bowl XLIX (Seattle Seahawks vs. New England Patriots), 2/1/15; 168 million viewers[2]
Super Bowl XLVIII (Seattle Seahawks vs. Denver Broncos), 2/2/14; 167 million viewers
Super Bowl XLVI (New York Giants vs. New England Patriots), 2/5/12; 166.8 million viewers
Super Bowl XLVII (Baltimore Ravens vs. San Francisco 49ers), 2/3/13; 164.1 million viewers;[3]
Super Bowl XLV (Green Bay Packers vs. Pittsburgh Steelers), 2/6/11; 162.9 million
Super Bowl XLIV (Indianapolis Colts vs. New Orleans Saints), 2/7/10; 153.4 million
Super Bowl XLIII (Arizona Cardinals vs. Pittsburgh Steelers), 2/1/09; 151.6 million
Super Bowl XLII (New York Giants vs. New England Patriots), 2/3/08; 148.3 million
(We might be getting close.)
posted by bukvich at 5:49 AM on August 21, 2015
Super Bowls account for the 21 most-watched programs in American TV history in terms of total audience.[1]
Most-Watched TV Programs, Total Viewers
Super Bowl XLIX (Seattle Seahawks vs. New England Patriots), 2/1/15; 168 million viewers[2]
Super Bowl XLVIII (Seattle Seahawks vs. Denver Broncos), 2/2/14; 167 million viewers
Super Bowl XLVI (New York Giants vs. New England Patriots), 2/5/12; 166.8 million viewers
Super Bowl XLVII (Baltimore Ravens vs. San Francisco 49ers), 2/3/13; 164.1 million viewers;[3]
Super Bowl XLV (Green Bay Packers vs. Pittsburgh Steelers), 2/6/11; 162.9 million
Super Bowl XLIV (Indianapolis Colts vs. New Orleans Saints), 2/7/10; 153.4 million
Super Bowl XLIII (Arizona Cardinals vs. Pittsburgh Steelers), 2/1/09; 151.6 million
Super Bowl XLII (New York Giants vs. New England Patriots), 2/3/08; 148.3 million
(We might be getting close.)
posted by bukvich at 5:49 AM on August 21, 2015
The concussion issue is going to have an amazing side effect: The United States will inevitably become the world's premier soccer powerhouse. I'm predicting that it reaches the World Cup finals in 2022, and then after that, the U.S. team never falls out of the top 3 ranked countries in the world.
Hahaha nope.
They'll be more competitive sure but there really is no reason to expect American citizens to dominate that quickly. Despite having most of the NHL teams and surging college programs the league is still almost 70% Canadian. There is a whole culture and infrastructure that would need to develop for American soccer to be internationally competitive and 7 years won't be long enough for that to happen never mind reaping the results of that.
American professional teams that could buy players from anywhere would be something to watch for though.
posted by srboisvert at 6:27 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hahaha nope.
They'll be more competitive sure but there really is no reason to expect American citizens to dominate that quickly. Despite having most of the NHL teams and surging college programs the league is still almost 70% Canadian. There is a whole culture and infrastructure that would need to develop for American soccer to be internationally competitive and 7 years won't be long enough for that to happen never mind reaping the results of that.
American professional teams that could buy players from anywhere would be something to watch for though.
posted by srboisvert at 6:27 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
While I agree his premise is a little ridiculous, the idea that grassroots hockey is meaningful in the US is a joke - especially when outside of a states it is almost exclusively the realm of upper middle class kids.
To put in perspective 24% of Canadian kids play youth hockey. There are only about 350k youth hockey players in the US, and the US sample is biased away from the regions that historically produce the majority of professional athletes.
Still though the idea the US can win a world cup with the talent in the pipeline today is a joke..
posted by JPD at 7:02 AM on August 21, 2015
To put in perspective 24% of Canadian kids play youth hockey. There are only about 350k youth hockey players in the US, and the US sample is biased away from the regions that historically produce the majority of professional athletes.
Still though the idea the US can win a world cup with the talent in the pipeline today is a joke..
posted by JPD at 7:02 AM on August 21, 2015
Your NHL analogy actually speaks to my point, not yours. If interest in football dwindles, interest in other sports will rise. The U.S. has more than 10 times the population of Canada. The only thing stopping the U.S. from totally dominating that sport is sheer interest. There's nothing inherently magical going on here.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:07 AM on August 21, 2015
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:07 AM on August 21, 2015
The only rational solution is to ban all forms of competition. Nothing good has ever come from it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:17 AM on August 21, 2015
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:17 AM on August 21, 2015
The only rational solution is to ban all forms of competition. Nothing good has ever come from it.
I haven't given a rats who won anything (other than an election) for years. I had a bit of a relapse with the 1997 World Series -- a case where the disease itself brought its own cure -- and since, nothing would induce me to care about the outcome of a game be it athletic, electronic, pop-o-matic, or balsamic.
It can be done.
There is definitely something special about seeing the best athletes in the world doing their thing, just like seeing the best dancers or best architects, or best anything.
How about the best dancers about architecture?
End substitutions. You go on the field once. You leave the field. You do NOT get back on the field until the next game. Problem solved.
You may have just invented Rollerball.
posted by Herodios at 7:20 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
I haven't given a rats who won anything (other than an election) for years. I had a bit of a relapse with the 1997 World Series -- a case where the disease itself brought its own cure -- and since, nothing would induce me to care about the outcome of a game be it athletic, electronic, pop-o-matic, or balsamic.
It can be done.
There is definitely something special about seeing the best athletes in the world doing their thing, just like seeing the best dancers or best architects, or best anything.
How about the best dancers about architecture?
End substitutions. You go on the field once. You leave the field. You do NOT get back on the field until the next game. Problem solved.
You may have just invented Rollerball.
posted by Herodios at 7:20 AM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Football is a violent sport, yes. But it's also one of the most insanely tactical games that exists. The amount of things going on in a single play is so vast that coaches can't really tell what all went on until they've looked at the film over and over......The problem is that you can't keep this level of tactical cat and mouse without the violence. A great deal of football is the blocking and beating those blocks. You're trying to move someone against their will and they're trying to get past you before you can do that. That's the challenge on every run, on every pass play - I'm going to make you stop me and I'll physically fight you to keep you from stopping me.
Roller derby is an excruciatingly tactical game - it's one of the few (if not only) sports that requires you to play offense and defense simultaneously. It's blocking and beating the blocking. I'll stop you, you can't stop me.
The differences are:
- Blocking in roller derby is done in parallel, whereas football is head-on
- In roller derby, you'll receive a penalty if you block someone above the shoulders, if you block using your head, or if you block someone while traveling in the opposite direction of gameplay.
That's not to say that concussions don't happen in roller derby (I received one back in November 2012), but the chances of it happening are much lower.
TL;DR - support your local roller derby league.
posted by Lucinda at 7:46 AM on August 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Roller derby is an excruciatingly tactical game - it's one of the few (if not only) sports that requires you to play offense and defense simultaneously. It's blocking and beating the blocking. I'll stop you, you can't stop me.
The differences are:
- Blocking in roller derby is done in parallel, whereas football is head-on
- In roller derby, you'll receive a penalty if you block someone above the shoulders, if you block using your head, or if you block someone while traveling in the opposite direction of gameplay.
That's not to say that concussions don't happen in roller derby (I received one back in November 2012), but the chances of it happening are much lower.
TL;DR - support your local roller derby league.
posted by Lucinda at 7:46 AM on August 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
The drop-off from the NFL would probably be channeled towards the NBA. I lost count to how many NFL players have mentioned that if they weren't footballers they'd be basketball players, I'm guessing because the odds of becoming a WR or a TE on the NFL are marginally less marginal than becoming a PG or a SF in the NBA. IIRC Vince Young's downfall (a former top-3 pick) was partially attributed for being uninterested in football and considered playing b-ball instead.
Athletics could also get some of those sub-4.30 40-yard dashers (where that stupid measurement would actually make a difference). Big, athletic lineman could find a second life throwing a shot, hammer or discus.
The US still have a long way to go, but a world cup in the next 30 years is a possibility. But after that happens, don't think the USMNFT is immune to the problems that plagued countries that won or were successful for one cycle. Germany won the last World Cup with the best grassroots/youth football system in the world, and are failing to pull decent performances since.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:51 AM on August 21, 2015
Athletics could also get some of those sub-4.30 40-yard dashers (where that stupid measurement would actually make a difference). Big, athletic lineman could find a second life throwing a shot, hammer or discus.
The US still have a long way to go, but a world cup in the next 30 years is a possibility. But after that happens, don't think the USMNFT is immune to the problems that plagued countries that won or were successful for one cycle. Germany won the last World Cup with the best grassroots/youth football system in the world, and are failing to pull decent performances since.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:51 AM on August 21, 2015
"Violent, ground-acquisition games (such as Football) are actually a crypto-fascist metaphor for war."
-Derek Lutz
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:00 AM on August 21, 2015
-Derek Lutz
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:00 AM on August 21, 2015
It's brutal, beautiful, graceful, powerful, unpredictable human chess. What's not to like?
We already have human chess. It's called chess.
I think it's pretty funny that you so often hear people defending their sport of choice by comparing it to chess, when most people hate chess.
posted by Flexagon at 11:21 AM on August 21, 2015
We already have human chess. It's called chess.
I think it's pretty funny that you so often hear people defending their sport of choice by comparing it to chess, when most people hate chess.
posted by Flexagon at 11:21 AM on August 21, 2015
It's brutal, beautiful, graceful, powerful, unpredictable human chess. What's not to like?
Chessboxing exists, as well. All the strategy of chess, all the violence/intensity of boxing!
posted by CrystalDave at 12:11 PM on August 21, 2015
Chessboxing exists, as well. All the strategy of chess, all the violence/intensity of boxing!
posted by CrystalDave at 12:11 PM on August 21, 2015
Here's a fascinating book excerpt describing the circus around the Shane Morris incident during the Michigan/Minnesota game last year. During that game, Michigan QB Morris took a helmet to the chin from Minnesota end Theiren Cockran. Woozy and stumbling, he was removed from the game only to be reinserted when his replacement's helmet was knocked off, forcing him off the field for a play.
Michigan's athletic department focused on covering their asses, which contributed to the AD and the coach getting canned. Michigan's medical trainers, on the other hand, behaved much more ethically.
I enjoy watching football (especially Michigan football, no matter how poor), but I recognize the serious issues the sport has, and the more light that shines on them, the better.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:29 PM on August 21, 2015
Michigan's athletic department focused on covering their asses, which contributed to the AD and the coach getting canned. Michigan's medical trainers, on the other hand, behaved much more ethically.
I enjoy watching football (especially Michigan football, no matter how poor), but I recognize the serious issues the sport has, and the more light that shines on them, the better.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:29 PM on August 21, 2015
This happened this week, too.
[Erik] Kramer's former wife, Marshawn Kramer, told NBC News Wednesday night that it was a suicide attempt, and said Kramer suffered years of depression that she believes was the result of his time in the NFL.
"He is a very amazing man, a beautiful soul, but he has suffered depression since he was with the Bears," Marshawn Kramer said in a telephone interview. She said of Kramer's decision to apparently obtain a gun and shoot himself, "I can promise you he is not the same man I married."
...
Marshawn and Erik Kramer officially divorced in 2010, in part due to conflicts caused by Erik's depression, she said. "I know Erik and I would still be together if not for his football injury," she said.
posted by Huck500 at 2:50 PM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
[Erik] Kramer's former wife, Marshawn Kramer, told NBC News Wednesday night that it was a suicide attempt, and said Kramer suffered years of depression that she believes was the result of his time in the NFL.
"He is a very amazing man, a beautiful soul, but he has suffered depression since he was with the Bears," Marshawn Kramer said in a telephone interview. She said of Kramer's decision to apparently obtain a gun and shoot himself, "I can promise you he is not the same man I married."
...
Marshawn and Erik Kramer officially divorced in 2010, in part due to conflicts caused by Erik's depression, she said. "I know Erik and I would still be together if not for his football injury," she said.
posted by Huck500 at 2:50 PM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
That must be why football (the proper kind, with a round ball that you kick) is the world's most popular sport. But 250 million players and a couple of billion spectators are all wrong, and you're right.
It's the world's most popular sport because it basically costs nothing to start playing. You just need a round object to aimlessly kick around all over the place and still somehow be unable to score despite the fact that the goal is insanely large relative to the size of the object.
Just because something is popular doesn't mean that it isn't banal.
To play soccer at the highest level, you do indeed need to be a prime athlete. I'm not denying that. But Ghana and Ukraine and Thailand and pretty much any other country can produce a team that can compete at the highest level. I'd love to see a Vietnam football (the proper kind, with armored gladiators who risk their lives for our amusement) team made up of its country's greatest football players take on an American team made up of its greatest football players. It would be a joke.
I'll end with one more peeve of mine. People scoff when the Super Bowl Champions refer to themselves as the "world champions". As if, there is another team somewhere of 53 people who can play this sport at the highest level and none of them are in the NFL. Whatever.
posted by King Bee at 3:08 PM on August 21, 2015
It's the world's most popular sport because it basically costs nothing to start playing. You just need a round object to aimlessly kick around all over the place and still somehow be unable to score despite the fact that the goal is insanely large relative to the size of the object.
Just because something is popular doesn't mean that it isn't banal.
To play soccer at the highest level, you do indeed need to be a prime athlete. I'm not denying that. But Ghana and Ukraine and Thailand and pretty much any other country can produce a team that can compete at the highest level. I'd love to see a Vietnam football (the proper kind, with armored gladiators who risk their lives for our amusement) team made up of its country's greatest football players take on an American team made up of its greatest football players. It would be a joke.
I'll end with one more peeve of mine. People scoff when the Super Bowl Champions refer to themselves as the "world champions". As if, there is another team somewhere of 53 people who can play this sport at the highest level and none of them are in the NFL. Whatever.
posted by King Bee at 3:08 PM on August 21, 2015
Does anybody else on the planet actually play American Handegg?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 3:25 PM on August 21, 2015
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 3:25 PM on August 21, 2015
Canadians, definitely. The Japanese, too; since 1934, apparently! I visited Fukuoka a couple years back, and if it weren't for those pesky business obligations, would have gone to a Japanese football game. I got to watch one team practice. The players were much more normally-proportioned than American football players, even on the lines.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:34 PM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Existential Dread at 3:34 PM on August 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the very first comment, and sprinkled throughout the thread, many commenters have acknowledged that they currently watch football or have in the past
Have you considered that the players actually like to play? That playing is it's own reward? This comment doesn't:
"Pee-wee football feeds into High School Football where serious injuries are still pretty commonplace and only a small fraction of whom will get college scholarships."
I'm not saying that joy and happiness and camraderie are an overarching value that must trump little things like injury. But I note that everything can injure, and that maybe risk is not a universal trump either.
There's a remarkable number of parents who literally don't let their children go outside unwatched, to the point where the police are called (and cooperate!) if such a danger is seen. Too safe exists. I'm not saying Football is safe enough, but recognizing there something to balance here is important.
Sports in general lead to injuries. But team sports are the greatest predictor of a girl graduating high school. And when we speak about somebody being in shape, we're often talking about athletes. There's a lot more going on here than just damage all around and I think people miss that because it Ain't Their Thing.
posted by effugas at 4:02 PM on August 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Have you considered that the players actually like to play? That playing is it's own reward? This comment doesn't:
"Pee-wee football feeds into High School Football where serious injuries are still pretty commonplace and only a small fraction of whom will get college scholarships."
I'm not saying that joy and happiness and camraderie are an overarching value that must trump little things like injury. But I note that everything can injure, and that maybe risk is not a universal trump either.
There's a remarkable number of parents who literally don't let their children go outside unwatched, to the point where the police are called (and cooperate!) if such a danger is seen. Too safe exists. I'm not saying Football is safe enough, but recognizing there something to balance here is important.
Sports in general lead to injuries. But team sports are the greatest predictor of a girl graduating high school. And when we speak about somebody being in shape, we're often talking about athletes. There's a lot more going on here than just damage all around and I think people miss that because it Ain't Their Thing.
posted by effugas at 4:02 PM on August 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
That said; I live in the Land Of America's Team, and when my son was peewee football age, most boys in the neighborhood were on a peewee team. (Not mine.) Now that he's entering junior high, there's not a single parent in our neighborhood that signed permission slips for football. Not one.
posted by dejah420 at 5:29 PM on August 21, 2015
posted by dejah420 at 5:29 PM on August 21, 2015
Have you considered that the players actually like to play? That playing is it's own reward?
It goes without saying that players like to play. Why else would they do it, outside of a tiny minority whose parents force them into it at an early age?
I'm not saying that joy and happiness and camraderie are an overarching value that must trump little things like injury. But I note that everything can injure, and that maybe risk is not a universal trump either.
Nobody has said that the injury risk is a universal trump. The fact that people are talking about the injury risk in a thread about the injury risk should not be seen as unusual. It's just really odd to come into a thread where people are discussing one negative aspect of something that has for decades been almost universally adored by the masses, including the other commenters, and insist that people acknowledge its other virtues. Yes, it's such a fun sport that many of us have acknowledged we're trying to quit it like some fucking drug addiction. It's also hurting many of the participants to the point where they're walking away from multi-million dollar salaries and in some cases ending their lives. I think that's a lot more noteworthy than "football is fun."
posted by tonycpsu at 7:29 PM on August 21, 2015
It goes without saying that players like to play. Why else would they do it, outside of a tiny minority whose parents force them into it at an early age?
I'm not saying that joy and happiness and camraderie are an overarching value that must trump little things like injury. But I note that everything can injure, and that maybe risk is not a universal trump either.
Nobody has said that the injury risk is a universal trump. The fact that people are talking about the injury risk in a thread about the injury risk should not be seen as unusual. It's just really odd to come into a thread where people are discussing one negative aspect of something that has for decades been almost universally adored by the masses, including the other commenters, and insist that people acknowledge its other virtues. Yes, it's such a fun sport that many of us have acknowledged we're trying to quit it like some fucking drug addiction. It's also hurting many of the participants to the point where they're walking away from multi-million dollar salaries and in some cases ending their lives. I think that's a lot more noteworthy than "football is fun."
posted by tonycpsu at 7:29 PM on August 21, 2015
" I'd love to see a Vietnam football (the proper kind, with armored gladiators who risk their lives for our amusement) team made up of its country's greatest football players take on an American team made up of its greatest football players. It would be a joke. "
For fuck's sake. What would that prove? Why not pit a team of golfers against canoeists in another utterly meaningless battle of two almost completely unalike disciplines.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:09 AM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
For fuck's sake. What would that prove? Why not pit a team of golfers against canoeists in another utterly meaningless battle of two almost completely unalike disciplines.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:09 AM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The reason why I've decided to stop watching football starting this year is because ESPN and the like managed to dumb down the discussion of a tactically rich game to the point it seems a movie where it's one guy against another. I've stopped reading or watching pre-game shows three years ago because it's a lot of bad breath milk duds talking loud on how THAT GUY IS ELITE BECAUSE HE PASSED FOR 5000 YARDS LAST SEASON; NO HE ISN'T HE RANKED ON THE BOTTOM HALF OF TOUCHDOWNS; WELL HE'S ABOUT TO GET A BIG PAYDAY WHEN HIS ROOKIE CONTRACT IS DUE BOB; PARTICULARLY IF THE OTHER GUY THAT PASSED FOR 4000 AND LED THE LEAGUE IN TDS GETS ONE FIRST ADAM.
The fake scandals (like Deflategate - which was a pretty neat way of not discussing concussions during the off-season months, same with bad officiating that manages to get worse every year, recurrent domestic violence problems, etc) also wear me down. The NFL has the networks balls on a grip - nothing becomes big without them telling them so (ask Bill Simmons). At this point, I assume when a juicy (as in, more fun than socially reprehensible) story comes out, it's the NFL that would rather have people talking about that than something else.
The final drop was a Bears fansite I used to comment a lot, and had it when after months of pointless daily discussion/infighting about Cutler (he's average, but when a team has one of the lowest ranking defenses, by all means, it's one guy's fault) the editors decided to go on a fucking high horse and say such discussions would be moderated. Of course, at times I still get a retweet or story from there, and plenty of times... you can guess what the headline is baiting.
King Bee: I take you learned what football/soccer is all about from a Simpsons episode? Your tactical view of the game is incredibly reduced to the point of comedy. Yes, the goal is pretty wide compared to most sports with the exception of Australian Rules. But there are 11 players on the field; 1 of them is allowed to stop the ball with the hands, and are easily between the tallest players with the fastest lateral speed. Defenders (usually between 3 and 6 on most regular occasions) learn from a pretty young age the first priority is to deny space for the opponents and most offensive movement is about trying to get the defense out of position so one player can have spatial advantage to take create a chance - that could be trying to lure the defense up so a fast forward is served with a through ball, beating the offside trap and get a one-on-one with the goalkeeper (and a fast, big goalkeeper like Manuel Neuer can make that space disappear very quickly), trying to flow the positions and match a tall forward against a usually smaller fullback working a zone defense and beat him on a cross, trying to push the defenders closer to the goal and then quickly circulate the ball to one midfielder coming from the back to have a clearer shot at goal. At the same time, the defending team might be trying to force one of the attacking players with defensive responsibilities out of position (such as a holding midfielder, or a very offensive wing back) to recover the ball, and try to take advantages of that gap in a counter attack.
But hey, it's really just 22 guys kicking a ball around, amirite?
posted by lmfsilva at 3:28 AM on August 22, 2015
The fake scandals (like Deflategate - which was a pretty neat way of not discussing concussions during the off-season months, same with bad officiating that manages to get worse every year, recurrent domestic violence problems, etc) also wear me down. The NFL has the networks balls on a grip - nothing becomes big without them telling them so (ask Bill Simmons). At this point, I assume when a juicy (as in, more fun than socially reprehensible) story comes out, it's the NFL that would rather have people talking about that than something else.
The final drop was a Bears fansite I used to comment a lot, and had it when after months of pointless daily discussion/infighting about Cutler (he's average, but when a team has one of the lowest ranking defenses, by all means, it's one guy's fault) the editors decided to go on a fucking high horse and say such discussions would be moderated. Of course, at times I still get a retweet or story from there, and plenty of times... you can guess what the headline is baiting.
King Bee: I take you learned what football/soccer is all about from a Simpsons episode? Your tactical view of the game is incredibly reduced to the point of comedy. Yes, the goal is pretty wide compared to most sports with the exception of Australian Rules. But there are 11 players on the field; 1 of them is allowed to stop the ball with the hands, and are easily between the tallest players with the fastest lateral speed. Defenders (usually between 3 and 6 on most regular occasions) learn from a pretty young age the first priority is to deny space for the opponents and most offensive movement is about trying to get the defense out of position so one player can have spatial advantage to take create a chance - that could be trying to lure the defense up so a fast forward is served with a through ball, beating the offside trap and get a one-on-one with the goalkeeper (and a fast, big goalkeeper like Manuel Neuer can make that space disappear very quickly), trying to flow the positions and match a tall forward against a usually smaller fullback working a zone defense and beat him on a cross, trying to push the defenders closer to the goal and then quickly circulate the ball to one midfielder coming from the back to have a clearer shot at goal. At the same time, the defending team might be trying to force one of the attacking players with defensive responsibilities out of position (such as a holding midfielder, or a very offensive wing back) to recover the ball, and try to take advantages of that gap in a counter attack.
But hey, it's really just 22 guys kicking a ball around, amirite?
posted by lmfsilva at 3:28 AM on August 22, 2015
This is actually kind of a golden age for tactical analysis ever since the league started releasing the All-22 footage. It's just often on blogs rather than ESPN which tends not to have the time to be too in depth.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:04 AM on August 22, 2015
posted by Drinky Die at 6:04 AM on August 22, 2015
Oh God, Bears fan discussions of Jay Cutler make me want to quit not just football but the whole human race.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:24 AM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:24 AM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
But hey, it's really just 22 guys kicking a ball around, amirite?
Yes. Just because you typed a couple of long sentences with tactical sounding words doesn't mean it isn't.
posted by King Bee at 6:31 AM on August 22, 2015
Yes. Just because you typed a couple of long sentences with tactical sounding words doesn't mean it isn't.
posted by King Bee at 6:31 AM on August 22, 2015
Drinky Die: That site I visited actually does pretty good (if occasional) rundowns on plays (and sacks, because let's be honest, it's the Bears and the one-year of decent o-line play in a decade) thanks to that. But most people really don't care about in-depth, and like with most things, it's the worst informed that have the strongest and loudest opinions. I lost count to how many times there were a few posts saying on how OFFENSIVE_LINEMAN was beaten to the inside when the play needed him to lead the pass-rush outside, the primary receiver was beaten to the inside by a linebacker while all other receivers did not have enough time to break open, and because of the pressure the pass was underthrown, then someone posted CUTLER SUCKS WARBAHRGLE and the discussion went to shit. It's really what Bulgaroktonos says.
King Bee: those "tactical sounding words" sound gibberish to you, the same to most of the world when someone says the running back gone through the 5-hole on a delayed draw from a pistol formation. Heck, it's just a small dude carrying a dark red melon between the fatties.
If you don't like soccer, just say you don't. Soccer is 22 guys kicking a ball as much as gridiron is 44 taking turns chasing one.
posted by lmfsilva at 8:07 AM on August 22, 2015
King Bee: those "tactical sounding words" sound gibberish to you, the same to most of the world when someone says the running back gone through the 5-hole on a delayed draw from a pistol formation. Heck, it's just a small dude carrying a dark red melon between the fatties.
If you don't like soccer, just say you don't. Soccer is 22 guys kicking a ball as much as gridiron is 44 taking turns chasing one.
posted by lmfsilva at 8:07 AM on August 22, 2015
Soccer is 22 guys kicking a ball as much as gridiron is 44 taking turns chasing one.
Your premise is that soccer is just as complicated as football? OK, time for me to just leave the thread.
posted by King Bee at 10:02 AM on August 22, 2015
Your premise is that soccer is just as complicated as football? OK, time for me to just leave the thread.
posted by King Bee at 10:02 AM on August 22, 2015
Your premise is that soccer is just as complicated as football?
That is... not what anyone's said on this thread.
posted by asterix at 10:10 AM on August 22, 2015
That is... not what anyone's said on this thread.
posted by asterix at 10:10 AM on August 22, 2015
(I mean, it would be difficult for soccer to be as tactically complicated as football, given that a) you can't block in soccer and b) more players are close to the ball at the beginning of every play in football than in soccer. Oh and c) it's a hell of a lot harder to control the ball with your feet and the rest of your body than your hands. That doesn't mean that there aren't tactics, or that soccer is a simple game.)
posted by asterix at 10:15 AM on August 22, 2015
posted by asterix at 10:15 AM on August 22, 2015
No, but it's you trying to imply soccer players are brainless chickens running in all directions in the hope someone accidentally pushes the ball into the goal. Maybe in a neighborhood Sunday morning game for kids 8-12 that happens. Or robot/puppy championship.
Soccer simply can't be as complicated in part because of what asterix said, and because you can't make a pass, the referee whistles and stops play, while the whole 6 or 7 players involved in the offense at that time huddle for a minute, and plan if the winger on the opposing side makes a run for the far post, the center forward and attacking midfielder make a move inside to drag both central defenders, while the inside midfielder feeds the wing back for a one-two with the same side winger, after which he crosses to the far post where hopefully the other winger had managed to put himself in position to head or tap the ball in.... or pass the ball to the other inside midfielder, who'll feed a through pass to the winger, who will either option to get past the opposing back and get a cross from the end line, or feed it back inside or to a supporting back if he doesn't. That's all done in real time, and there are plenty of talented players that were great at one team, and then sucked at other because they never assimilated the tactical system in place, or even whole teams starting to suck after a new manager implemented an ineffective system.
To put it in a way you might understand (although I really doubt you want to, and leave the discussion with this, because why bother): imagine how gridiron would be if instead of whistling a play dead once a knee/elbow/ass hit the ground, the ball carrier had to lateral the ball to someone else. Now, imagine that instead of waiting and frantically pointing out for blockers (like most liveballs that are not not immediately downed) or trying to make a run for it alone to the middle of 3 opponents, everyone on the field knows what to do in the situation. Those are the tactics in soccer - it's not a playbook with Xs and Os - although those exist for dead ball situations and very specific situations - but a series of rehearsed plays and solutions that fit a scheme and team philosophy because in gridiron you can have three plays lined up exactly in the same situation (you don't want to , unless you're Marc Trestman), and in soccer you can't for a variety of reasons.
It's not as complicated as gridiron (and, nobody implied that - what I said is that for a layman, a soccer game is a 22-player kickabout as much as gridiron is a 44-player melee), but it can be a very complex tactical game because of the fluidity of the game itself.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike soccer I won't argue much because it's either indefensible (racism on the stands, abusive flopping) or a matter of taste (low scores, not much action at times). Because it's not a tactical game was unheard to me.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:32 PM on August 22, 2015
Soccer simply can't be as complicated in part because of what asterix said, and because you can't make a pass, the referee whistles and stops play, while the whole 6 or 7 players involved in the offense at that time huddle for a minute, and plan if the winger on the opposing side makes a run for the far post, the center forward and attacking midfielder make a move inside to drag both central defenders, while the inside midfielder feeds the wing back for a one-two with the same side winger, after which he crosses to the far post where hopefully the other winger had managed to put himself in position to head or tap the ball in.... or pass the ball to the other inside midfielder, who'll feed a through pass to the winger, who will either option to get past the opposing back and get a cross from the end line, or feed it back inside or to a supporting back if he doesn't. That's all done in real time, and there are plenty of talented players that were great at one team, and then sucked at other because they never assimilated the tactical system in place, or even whole teams starting to suck after a new manager implemented an ineffective system.
To put it in a way you might understand (although I really doubt you want to, and leave the discussion with this, because why bother): imagine how gridiron would be if instead of whistling a play dead once a knee/elbow/ass hit the ground, the ball carrier had to lateral the ball to someone else. Now, imagine that instead of waiting and frantically pointing out for blockers (like most liveballs that are not not immediately downed) or trying to make a run for it alone to the middle of 3 opponents, everyone on the field knows what to do in the situation. Those are the tactics in soccer - it's not a playbook with Xs and Os - although those exist for dead ball situations and very specific situations - but a series of rehearsed plays and solutions that fit a scheme and team philosophy because in gridiron you can have three plays lined up exactly in the same situation (you don't want to , unless you're Marc Trestman), and in soccer you can't for a variety of reasons.
It's not as complicated as gridiron (and, nobody implied that - what I said is that for a layman, a soccer game is a 22-player kickabout as much as gridiron is a 44-player melee), but it can be a very complex tactical game because of the fluidity of the game itself.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike soccer I won't argue much because it's either indefensible (racism on the stands, abusive flopping) or a matter of taste (low scores, not much action at times). Because it's not a tactical game was unheard to me.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:32 PM on August 22, 2015
Checkers is a tactical game too. It doesn't mean I want to watch people play it.
I watch basketball. I watch hockey. I love both of these sports. I understand strategy and tactics in real time. I understand how you need to have preternatural-like abilities to be good at these sports and just "know" what's going to happen to put yourself in a position to make a play at times.
At the highest level of soccer, these things probably exist as well. But since the sport is so slow and it takes nearly an eon for any play to develop, you do not have to be as good a tactician as you do in basketball or hockey.
Soccer also just generally annoying. You don't have shutouts, you have "clean sheets". A "shot on goal" isn't what it is in hockey, and usually an entire game can go by without the goalkeeper having to ever make an actual save. You don't have rules, you have "laws". It's not a field, it's a "pitch". Don't get me started with "set piece". Just get the fuck over yourselves already with your boring shit of a sport.
I have arrived at my position not out of ignorance, but out of frustration with trying to understand why anyone would give a good goddamn about this when there are better sports to immerse yourself in.
posted by King Bee at 1:03 PM on August 22, 2015
I watch basketball. I watch hockey. I love both of these sports. I understand strategy and tactics in real time. I understand how you need to have preternatural-like abilities to be good at these sports and just "know" what's going to happen to put yourself in a position to make a play at times.
At the highest level of soccer, these things probably exist as well. But since the sport is so slow and it takes nearly an eon for any play to develop, you do not have to be as good a tactician as you do in basketball or hockey.
Soccer also just generally annoying. You don't have shutouts, you have "clean sheets". A "shot on goal" isn't what it is in hockey, and usually an entire game can go by without the goalkeeper having to ever make an actual save. You don't have rules, you have "laws". It's not a field, it's a "pitch". Don't get me started with "set piece". Just get the fuck over yourselves already with your boring shit of a sport.
I have arrived at my position not out of ignorance, but out of frustration with trying to understand why anyone would give a good goddamn about this when there are better sports to immerse yourself in.
posted by King Bee at 1:03 PM on August 22, 2015
So, it's because it doesn't have tactics, or because you simply don't like it?
You don't like soccer because it's low-paced. As I've said, it's alright, it's a matter of taste. Just don't come up with bullshit over "not having tactics" because they can't be explained with a freeze-frame and a telestrator.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:54 PM on August 22, 2015
You don't like soccer because it's low-paced. As I've said, it's alright, it's a matter of taste. Just don't come up with bullshit over "not having tactics" because they can't be explained with a freeze-frame and a telestrator.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:54 PM on August 22, 2015
My underlying point is that it's checkers compared to chess.
posted by King Bee at 2:18 PM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by King Bee at 2:18 PM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
OK, now I think that I'm really done with football.
posted by octothorpe at 6:45 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:45 PM on August 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Vick paid his debt to society and appears to genuinely be a changed man. He isn't a reason to hate football anymore. He's a success story for rehabilitation.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:34 AM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 10:34 AM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Concussion Starring Will Smith
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:40 AM on September 2, 2015
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:40 AM on September 2, 2015
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