The Naked Truth

August 26, 2015 4:08 PM

What's All This Hubbub About Topless Women In Times Square? [NSFW]
​Over the past two weeks, top New York officials — from Mayor Bill de Blasio to Police Commissioner Bill Bratton and even former governor George Pataki — have been grumbling about the rising presence of topless performers, known as Desnudas, in Times Square. Is the famous pedestrian plaza going back to the bad old days, or is this just the petulant whining of some grumpy old men? Here's what to make of it.
posted by andoatnp (98 comments total)

DIGG? (but yes, interesting post!)
posted by Going To Maine at 4:14 PM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]

Obligatory Outdoor Co-ed Topless Pulp Fiction Appreciation Society.
posted by Mothlight at 4:15 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Forget the topless women, there's much bigger problems if they're letting dudes walk around with their hair threaded through their backwards caps.
posted by mannequito at 4:17 PM on August 26, 2015 [14 favorites]

Winter is coming.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:33 PM on August 26, 2015 [8 favorites]

is this just the petulant whining of some grumpy old men?

Well, at least one of the performers thinks that it's the petulant whining of "ghetto fat women", so I'd say that opinions vary.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:35 PM on August 26, 2015

Because a bunch of prudish tourists have a problem with tits, we all have to suffer? Times Square has no shortage of annoyances for the local, but the desnudas aren't one of them. You want to make Times Square suck less? Start with the fucking assholes shilling for stand-up comedy shows. I used to work in Times Square, and after a week, the costumed people, the tour bus people. and most of the other street hawkers left me alone. You know who didn't? The stand-up comedy people. I wanted to grab one by the shirt, and shake them, and scream "I WALK PAST YOU EVERY FUCKING DAY, TWICE A DAY. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE TOSH.0. NOT NOW, NOT EVER. STOP ASKING ME."

Also, re-open the visitor's center, so there's a damn clean public bathroom again.
posted by SansPoint at 4:36 PM on August 26, 2015 [42 favorites]

Now I have a reason to visit Times Square again. I mean, c'mon you let a cowboy wander around in a diaper
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:39 PM on August 26, 2015

RobotVoodooPower No you don't. There's no reason to ever visit Times Square.
posted by SansPoint at 4:42 PM on August 26, 2015 [12 favorites]

Times Square is an absolute shit show, but naked ladies are about #50 on the list of reasons why.

(I once responded to one of the stand-up comedy guys with, "I live here." Meaning, I am not a tourist, of course I don't want to see your dumb show. He didn't get it.)
posted by Mavri at 4:43 PM on August 26, 2015 [7 favorites]

There were few things that made me feel as consistently good as responding to the comedy guys asking "DO YOU LIKE COMEDY???" with "no"

I'm moving to NYC, so these kinds of tips are greatly appreciated.
posted by andoatnp at 4:49 PM on August 26, 2015 [9 favorites]

I fondly recall the good old days when you could score an eightball and see an interesting fellow displaying his penis all in Times Square.
posted by dr_dank at 4:59 PM on August 26, 2015 [17 favorites]

I think Times Square is worth visiting at least once. It's a freakish spectacle. It's like a tiny bit of Las Vegas in NYC, with the bonus that you are not in Vegas, but in NYC with other stuff to do also.

It's an experience. You don't need more than a half hour though.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 5:00 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

See, everything I hear about de Blasio is that he's supposedly ultra liberal, so I don't get why he would be so oddly puritanical about this one issue. And clearly a lot of tourists enjoy it, otherwise the desnudas wouldn't be doing any business.
posted by pravit at 5:01 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm not a prudish tourist, but I'd be offended if approached. If I want nudity and tits in my face (or any genitals), we have no shortage of places, websites and other media through which to get them. I wish public places were less of a venue of making money with overt sexuality under the guise of personal freedom. As a woman who is bombarded with half naked women (seldom men) to sell every. single. damned. thing, I'm tired of it. Also, those women are decidedly NOT of all shapes and sizes, at least in the posted photos.
posted by tatiana131 at 5:02 PM on August 26, 2015 [15 favorites]

In the UK we have the naked rambler. Who has quietly but determinedly made a mockery of our police force and judiciary, not to mention our failed pretence of freedom of expression. Being naked or partially undressed does not harm anyone, people should be allowed to be naked - there are so many bigger more urgent crimes than a few people in their birthday suits.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 5:03 PM on August 26, 2015 [7 favorites]

"DO YOU LIKE COMEDY???"

"AM I A CLOWN? DO I AMUSE YOU?"

"Uh, no."
posted by octobersurprise at 5:04 PM on August 26, 2015 [7 favorites]

If you really need to see a show, take the train to 50th and 8th and just try to get there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:05 PM on August 26, 2015

It's sort of makes me glad that there are still actual hustlers In Times Square.
posted by swift at 5:06 PM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

My wife and I are moving back to the NY/NJ area when we get the money together. She's from the Lower East Side, and I used to work in Midtown.

Sounds like nothing's really changed in the five years since we left.
posted by mephron at 5:10 PM on August 26, 2015

Metafilter: I DO NOT WANT TO SEE TOSH.0. NOT NOW, NOT EVER. STOP ASKING ME.

(How is that show popular?)
posted by JHarris at 5:12 PM on August 26, 2015 [23 favorites]

Last time I was in Times Square, it was On Trail, and I learned the difference between a tourist and a fireplug.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 5:14 PM on August 26, 2015

I have seen the enemy and it is American flags painted on immigrant titties.
posted by swift at 5:29 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

As a former T² worker, I agree that only the comedy shills are in-your-face. I assumed they were all unpaid 'interns' or some other kind of pathetic victim, so I never dissed them.
NO OTHER STREET WORKER HAS EVER INITIATED CONTACT. Not even the old naked cowgirl(nsfw, possibly just ns). The tour bus guys will acknowledge you if you walk directly towards them, though.
posted by hexatron at 5:33 PM on August 26, 2015

Just put some damn clothes on.

Where is the one place in America I would never ever want to be without clothes?

TIMES SQUARE
posted by easter queen at 5:36 PM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

I feel like pizza.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:36 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

Funny, you don't look like pizza.
posted by jonmc at 5:41 PM on August 26, 2015 [15 favorites]

This is so low on the list of objectionable things that happen in New York I don't understand why it even warrants a mention.
posted by naju at 5:43 PM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]

I don't understand why it even warrants a mention

It's like you don't even think of the children.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 5:46 PM on August 26, 2015 [18 favorites]

Judging from the picture, the children will grow up to be EXTRA patriotic and not remember exactly why. It's a win for America.
posted by naju at 5:47 PM on August 26, 2015 [16 favorites]

I'm moving to NYC, so these kinds of tips are greatly appreciated.

tip #1: there is never any reason at all whatsoever to go to times square.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:48 PM on August 26, 2015 [13 favorites]

The NYTimes has had a series of articles about this over the last week or so (one or two of which are linked from the main FPP link). My favorite thing about them was that all the photographs were done with a passerby's arm or something else blocking the view of the women's breasts, while still making it clear that they were mostly naked. I can only imagine how long it took to arrange each shot.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:51 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

there is never any reason at all whatsoever to go to times square.

You go to Times Square to see Hamilton, duh. (But if you're smart you approach from the west and avoid the worst of it.)
posted by Mavri at 5:57 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

if you're smart you never go to times square for any reason at all ever
posted by poffin boffin at 5:59 PM on August 26, 2015

Already NYPD has started harassing the women, stealing their clothes and interrogating them, and also arresting the man working with them on a trespassing warrant.

The Mayor and Police Commissioner have discussed tearing up the pedestrian plaza and turning the place back over to cars to get rid of the women.

Fuck de Blasio, he can fuck right off back to Boston.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:01 PM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]

The Daily News cover about the painted ladies is required viewing.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 6:11 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

I don't understand why it even warrants a mention

The shitty outsize bizarre reaction and extreme effort to paint them as like, exploited women is ridiculous enough to merit discussion idk.
posted by emptythought at 6:13 PM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

I hear what you're saying, internet fraud detective squad, station number 9, and maybe this is obvious to everyone but me, but how sexualized are they, really? Like at least in that pic, they don't look super sexual to me, more like festival or parade performers (and I've been sometimes justifiably accused of being a prude).
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:13 PM on August 26, 2015 [8 favorites]

poffin boffin tip #1: there is never any reason at all whatsoever to go to times square.

I wish that was the case. Problem is, 1) Times Square is home to businesses with offices and such, so there's people who work there. Not just retail folks, but desk jobs. I had one of those for a while. (The company moved to 37th street after six months.)

2) Occasionally interesting things happen in Times Square you might want to see. Last time I went to Times Square was back in October for the CBGB Festival. DEVO was performing, for free. Worth the suffering.
posted by SansPoint at 6:13 PM on August 26, 2015 [5 favorites]

I shall have to look out for these ladies, on my way from 43rdAnd9th to work at 49th and 7th. Unfortunately, I don't think many of them will be around just before 8am.

Any other time of day I take a wide detour around the Square, for all the reasons people have mentioned. I occasionally used to head across to 48th to look at guitars, but there's really only Rudy's left now, so I prefer not the face The Square in my lunch break.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 6:15 PM on August 26, 2015

Also I feel like that whole setup might work as a helpful distraction from ick.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:16 PM on August 26, 2015

Occasionally interesting things happen in Times Square you might want to see

even if they burned donald trump in a giant wicker man i would just watch it 2 minutes later on youtube
posted by poffin boffin at 6:22 PM on August 26, 2015 [46 favorites]

My wife and I talked to these girls after seeing a show on 42nd St a couple weeks ago. They were the most charming thing in Times Square.
posted by hwestiii at 6:27 PM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Hey, be nice!

Poor wicker man, having to have Trump inside...
posted by mephron at 6:27 PM on August 26, 2015 [4 favorites]

I don't understand. How do these women succeed walking more than 10 feet without getting their nipples completely pinched off and the decibel level of catcatcalling shattering the store windows? How is this New York City?
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:28 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think (it seems anyway) that by framing their nudity as performance, they're setting an expectation that potential catcallers behave like respectful members of an audience (vs. dogs). I mean it is performance.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:33 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

So long as men are allowed to show their nipples, anyone wanting to stop women from doing the same should just go and join the Taliban already.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:33 PM on August 26, 2015 [23 favorites]

I don't understand. How do these women succeed walking more than 10 feet without getting their nipples completely pinched off and the decibel level of catcatcalling shattering the store windows?

They have established an expectation of payment in exchange for interaction, as compared to street harassers who feel like they deserve free interaction.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 PM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]

So long as men are allowed to show their nipples

Banning that too is another brave solution proposed by one of our astute politicians.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:37 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

I think Ari Paul nailed what this "controversy" is about:

The motivation for the tabloids’ anti-breast campaign is clear: Their conservative editorial boards can blast the mayor for his inaction on cracking down on “quality of life” infractions while boosting sales by planting breasts on page one; the simultaneous shaming and titillating is an editorial win-win.

Boobs + blasting de Blasio = perfect tabloid storm.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 6:46 PM on August 26, 2015 [27 favorites]

DIGG?

No, no. Infra dig.
posted by BWA at 6:54 PM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Just so everyone is clear: it is 100% legal to go topless in New York. These women are not breaking any laws whatsoever.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:59 PM on August 26, 2015 [33 favorites]

Wow so NYC solved all their real problems, awesome
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:13 PM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]

The Daily News cover about the painted ladies is required viewing.

So, I am not usually in New York, but this past week I was in New York. My girlfriend's (sweet, hospitable, extraordinarily decent) grandma subscribes to the Post and the News, and we read them more or less cover to cover every morning over coffee.

I don't know if it was an especially vibrant week in NYC tabloids or if it was pretty much just par for the course, but I certainly felt like I was having an Experience.
posted by brennen at 7:15 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

There were a bunch of women who used to hang out topless in Madison Square Park; I used to see them at my lunch hour. Somehow, the tourists were not frightened away from Eataly and the Flatiron building is still standing. Surely there are more important issues for DeBlasio to turn his attention to?
posted by holborne at 7:19 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't actually be a fan of having man-nipples in my face either.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:37 PM on August 26, 2015

exisiting in your general vicinity is not quite having them in your face, though. you would have to go to deliberate and harassing lengths to have them actually in your face.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:40 PM on August 26, 2015 [19 favorites]

I hung out in Times Square once, back in the 80's while waiting for friends to cop on Houston St. and then again a couple of years ago visiting for the 45th anniversary of "In C" at Carnegie. It seems much more jammed and insane than it did back in the day, when I was much more jammed and insane.
posted by evilDoug at 7:43 PM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Once I was in the east village heading home after an evening out with friends and I passed a woman on the street who was topless. She was not performing. She had a messenger bag over her shoulder, I think, and was wearing unremarkable slacks and boots, just striding along like someone with places to be.
posted by bunderful at 7:46 PM on August 26, 2015 [8 favorites]

I am totally happy about the idea that women and men can both go topless when they want to, but I don't really feel good about the whole "extremely body conforming naked women to take photos with!!" angle, give it a damn rest tbh, and also I was pretty serious when I said JUST PUT ON SOME CLOTHES, you are in Times Square, you shouldn't be touching anyone without a hazmat suit and do you realize how dangerous the physical environment of Earth is at any given moment

sun

BEES

sharp things!!
posted by easter queen at 7:49 PM on August 26, 2015 [6 favorites]

sun

BEES

sharp things!!

As compelling a distillation of the pragmatic case against nudism as I've yet heard, though it elides sticking to things you've sat on.
posted by brennen at 7:52 PM on August 26, 2015 [10 favorites]

BEES

Nudism and bees? New York has you covered on that front as well.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:56 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

from parasite unseen's link: It's usually—and I hate to be rude about this—overweight women. They're the ones that are rude to us the whole day. To be honest, men don't harass us that often. I feel like men are a little bit nervous about us.

It's the women that come past who are overweight and have their kids around and they're perpetuating this negative view that their children should be afraid of their own bodies. It makes me really angry because I feel like the naked human body is a beautiful thing and nobody should be afraid of it. These ghetto fat women walk past us with their children and go, "That's disgusting. Put some clothes on." I feel like saying to them, "Stop feeding your children McDonalds. Tell your girls that they have beautiful bodies and raise them as strong women to understand that their body is their body and they have control over it. They don't have to be afraid of being harassed or feeling belittled because they have a beautiful woman's body."

Maybe the 'ghetto fat women' are tired of being reminded that that are failing to meet society's standards for women and that body positivity is only for conventionally attractive women.
posted by betweenthebars at 8:04 PM on August 26, 2015 [18 favorites]

Here's what to make of it.

Hat? Brooch? Pterodactyl?
posted by Daily Alice at 8:04 PM on August 26, 2015 [11 favorites]

Never before, nor since, I'm guessing, has someone testified to the Maryland Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee, "I like nipples."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:08 PM on August 26, 2015 [2 favorites]

Poo-pooing sexuality is such a favorite subject of conservative news outlets because it allows them to show pictures of exactly. what. is. repressed.

I agree that this isn't as simple as "freedom of nudity" though. You already have ultra-massive (extremely fit and white and able-bodied) butts on the American Eagle jumbotrons overhead. Times Square is definitely one of the universe's power centers for transforming the male gaze into cash. (Edit: which I don't think is a good thing, if that isn't clear)
posted by neil pierce at 8:13 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

Funny, you don't look like pizza.

Wait until I get some of this body paint on!
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:35 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

You already have ultra-massive (extremely fit and white and able-bodied) butts on the American Eagle jumbotrons overhead.

Let's fix "that" before we "fix" the "problem" of real women walking around topless.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:53 PM on August 26, 2015

I've thought a damn long time about this. Every time this topic comes up, what with the nice high resolution photos and all. I look at those photos for a while, I read the words about them.

I think to myself, I sure do enjoy looking at bare breasted women. Certainly I appreciate the pictures anyway...and I wonder if I would have a problem if I were to be confronted by this "overt" sexual display in real life.

Would I be able to control myself?? Would I somehow maintain composure, or would my mind break under the hypersexual weight of all those nipples, gleaming in the noonday sun? Surely I would not be to blame if I descended into some primordial ogling and or cat calling. Surely people would understand: it's not his fault. Those pesky women with their upsetting breasts.

And then I remember

That my parents taught me

HOW IT'S NOT POLITE TO STARE

And if you don't want to look at something you actually don't have to.

Really, it's that simple.
posted by Doleful Creature at 10:09 PM on August 26, 2015 [3 favorites]

Hey guys, DeBlasio is actually pretty liberal for a Puritan. He said the women would only have to be removed, no time in the stocks at all!
posted by corb at 10:47 PM on August 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

If the women painted their boobs with pictures of other boobs maybe that would solve the problem?
posted by Ned G at 1:23 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

it's boobs all the way down
posted by kagredon at 1:27 AM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

BUT EVERYONE THE NAKED COWBOY IS THERE SO MEN ARE BEING OPPRESSED TOO
posted by saladin at 3:59 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Regardless of how we are all supposed to feel (Times Square is not worth visiting, topless ladies are cool), the fact is that fairly significant parts of the city rely economically on the fact that people who don't live in New York feel pretty much exactly the opposite (dying to visit Times Square, topless ladies are an abomination).

I might feel less pragmatic about this if I thought that they were doing art or making an important statement, but I think we're talking about what is primarily a (surprisingly novel) method of shaking down tourists for cash. I thought the dirtbag cartoon characters were peak shakedown, but I guess we're not there yet.
posted by telegraph at 4:23 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

There are several articles which imply that these women are being pimped.

I have also read several accounts of desnudas and people in costumes stepping into the shots of people taking pictures and then demanding money. I go to the AMC on 42nd st sometimes and have had my way blocked on the sidewalk with yowling by someone in a costume.....and the times when charity muggers have stepped in my way after I've deliberately given them a wide berth are too many to count.

The real issues aren't the naked breasts; it's the exploitation and the refusal to respect the rights of others to be left alone.
posted by brujita at 4:28 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

It's the women that come past who are overweight and have their kids around and they're perpetuating this negative view that their children should be afraid of their own bodies. It makes me really angry because I feel like the naked human body is a beautiful thing and nobody should be afraid of it. These ghetto fat women walk past us with their children and go, "That's disgusting. Put some clothes on." I feel like saying to them, "Stop feeding your children McDonalds. Tell your girls that they have beautiful bodies and raise them as strong women to understand that their body is their body and they have control over it. They don't have to be afraid of being harassed or feeling belittled because they have a beautiful woman's body."

This isn't a shitty sentiment at heart.

I know, you just spit your drink out on your keyboard. But if you edit out all the fat shaming and shitty language the general concept of "you shouldn't take out your weirdness and belief that naked people are somehow damaging to your children on me repeatedly all day" is, to me, sound.

I think at it's core there's some very legitimate anger here being expressed in an unfortunate way out of frustration, and that it's getting blasted(rightfully!) for being shitty without really engaging with the basic concept. Because once you strip the shittiness out i mean... yea.

like, let's try that again:

It's the women that come past who are overweight and have their kids around and they're perpetuating this negative view that their children should be afraid of their own bodies. It makes me really angry because I feel like the naked human body is a beautiful thing and nobody should be afraid of it. These ghetto fat women walk past us with their children and go, "That's disgusting. Put some clothes on." I feel like saying to them, "Stop feeding your children McDonalds. Tell your girls that they have beautiful bodies and raise them as strong women to understand that their body is their body and they have control over it. They don't have to be afraid of being harassed or feeling belittled because they have a beautiful woman's body."

See what i mean? That's not really that shitty of a sentiment, is it? and as someone who's spent some time discussing discussing this with friends who have been repeatedly attacked/shamed in public for how much skin they were showing(and some experiences wearing stupid costumes all day in public) just... yea.

I think "oh great more lauded display of the societally acceptable kind of body" isn't the primary thing here. I think HOW DARE YOU NUDITY is a lot more on point for most reactions.

I'm also really really out of patience for 99% of the "how dare you in front of my kids!", and i really do believe these women saying that's most of what they get.
posted by emptythought at 4:47 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

I find myself rather astonished at the difference in defending naked people in public in this thread vs the thread on the naked dude in the coffee shop.
posted by dejah420 at 4:59 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

As someone who has said no thank-you to both: the dude in the coffee shop was in a confined space; patrons couldn't avoid him; there wasn't even the pretense of an art thing; and, most importantly, he was interrupting coffee.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:02 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

I find myself rather astonished at the difference in defending naked people in public in this thread vs the thread on the naked dude in the coffee shop.

But they exist in different contexts - you can't discuss public nudity as some kind of isolated phenomenon wholly removed from our cultural and social background.

And yeah, a large part of that context is that women are sexually harassed and assaulted by men far more than vice versa, so Surprise Peen in an enclosed space has an entirely different background and affect than Surprise Female Boobs outdoors in what's likely one of the most "public" spaces on Earth.

(And that's besides the fact that Nude Coffee Dude was, bluntly, a known boundary-violating preevert, on record as stating that he got his jollies from showing people his junk when they didn't want or expect to see it. "Nude Dude promotes Nude Bike Ride" might have seemed like a cute idea, but the ride organizers and/or the coffee shop owner apparently could have made a pretty minimal effort to do some due diligence and concluded that that Dude was really not an appropriate person to use as a spokesnudedude.)
posted by soundguy99 at 6:08 AM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

Yeah sorry, no, coffee dick guy isn't even remotely close to topless ladies in a giant outdoor space where, again, it is 100% legal for ANYBODY to be topless.

Lest we forget this isn't even about nudity. It's about toplessness. Comparing exposed female nipples to exposed male penises seems very patriarchal and gross to me.
posted by Doleful Creature at 6:41 AM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]

The Mayor and Police Commissioner have discussed tearing up the pedestrian plaza and turning the place back over to cars to get rid of the women.

Awesome. NYC clearly needs more pedestrians getting run over.
posted by Monochrome at 6:56 AM on August 27, 2015

As a former T2 worker, I agree that only the comedy shills are in-your-face. I assumed they were all unpaid 'interns' or some other kind of pathetic victim, so I never dissed them.
NO OTHER STREET WORKER HAS EVER INITIATED CONTACT.

I've heard a number of WTF episodes with comedians talking about how much they hated hustling those flyers. Sounds like a nightmare for both the giver and the receiver. I think there's a lot of pressure on these people to fill seats but it's no less annoying.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:08 AM on August 27, 2015

Another New Yorker checking in: leave these women alone, they're no better or worse than any other bullshit going on in Times Square. Sure, it sucks to be constantly assaulted by sexualized women's bodies, but given the number of subway ads for breast implants and diet shakes I've had to sit under in the past few years a handful of topless painted women is...seriously, a drop in the bucket. Easier to avoid looking at than the building-sized billboards of nearly-as-naked women folks see in Manhattan every day.

And as showbiz_liz pointed out, being topless is 100% legal in New York.

I want de Blasio to care about the shrinking pool of affordable housing, not topless tourist hasslers.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:39 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

My youngest is breastfeeding. I'm worried that, if I took him somewhere with topless women, he'd think it was an all you can eat buffet. So I guess I don't want him exposed to this.
posted by Anne Neville at 7:41 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

Yeah, you guys. Female nudity is FUN, male nudity is THREATENING
posted by easter queen at 8:05 AM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

I am being sarcastic, that guy was a creep. But:

And yeah, a large part of that context is that women are sexually harassed and assaulted by men far more than vice versa, so Surprise Peen in an enclosed space has an entirely different background and affect than Surprise Female Boobs outdoors in what's likely one of the most "public" spaces on Earth

Surprise peen in an enclosed space is threatening and unwelcome, and frankly surprise boobs on display as decoration is also threatening and unwelcome (and probably has a negative affect on women's psychology, as has been proven by a million papers about the impact on women of constant female objectification). Female boobs hanging out because the wearer is chilling in public... not a big deal. Female boobs hanging out to sell things/make money/pretend like women's bodies are public property... shitty tbh. I think the objectification makes a big difference.
posted by easter queen at 8:10 AM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]

betweenthebars: "from parasite unseen's link: ... These ghetto fat women walk past us with their children and go, "That's disgusting. Put some clothes on."

Maybe the 'ghetto fat women' are tired of being reminded that that are failing to meet society's standards for women and that body positivity is only for conventionally attractive women."

Maybe that suggests the solution all around. Those who are upset by these women for whatever reason, whether because they disapprove of topless women in general or just the message being sent about who is acceptably attractive enough to be seen topless, should sponsor a range of women who aren't conventionally attractive to busk topless in Times Square (and also maybe minimally dressed men of various body types). That way the body positivity message would be expanded to a more representative range of people, and simultaneously it might decrease the novelty and titillation(sorry) factor of the Desnudas women.

I'd be willing to chip in a few bucks to a crowdfunded topless diversity entertainment brigade.
posted by Reverend John at 8:12 AM on August 27, 2015

And as showbiz_liz pointed out, being topless is 100% legal in New York.

We (me and friends) were talking about this just last night, I took the skeptical position (as I often do -- hey, there has to be some pushback to some of the memes I hear going around) but they managed to find on the internet that, in fact, this is true, due to precedent from a Federal court case.

Although one could still say it's effectively illegal, in that, if you do some kinds of things, some police will look for any excuse to find something else to run you in on. "A straw? That's drug paraphernalia, yer goin' downtown."
posted by JHarris at 10:40 AM on August 27, 2015

Yeah, you guys. Female nudity is FUN, male nudity is THREATENING

This might have been meant as a joke, but it's pretty true in society today. Not sure how you change those underlying dynamics to make it more equal or less weirdly tied up in sexist dynamics, but it still is what it is.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:17 AM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]

Yeah, you guys. Female nudity is FUN, male nudity is THREATENING.

We're drawing the line at genitals people.
posted by bonobothegreat at 11:56 AM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]

This might have been meant as a joke, but it's pretty true in society today. Not sure how you change those underlying dynamics to make it more equal or less weirdly tied up in sexist dynamics, but it still is what it is.

I don't think it is true, though. I think highly sexualized women in advertising/mercenary contexts are often threatening to women (not fun). Some women try to emulate that sexy-object-standard as much as possible and embrace it to neutralize the threat, some hate on it (like me), others maybe don't notice it as much. But objectified men typically aren't threatening to women-- see, e.g., Chippendales, where women have lots of fun. The difference is that naked women are seen as fun/objectified/commodified/for consumption, and naked men are seen as... well, basically inappropriately infringing on your personal space, in those situations in which they are (e.g., jerking off on the bus or a predator wandering naked in a coffee shop).

When men are sexualized/objectified, (straight) men do tend to feel threatened, and (straight) women at ease. It's not the nudity; it's the power dynamics.
posted by easter queen at 12:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

I should also say, I have no idea how viewing objectified/sexualized images of men affects male psychology; it would be interesting to see if it has similarly deleterious effects, or if it affects women more due to widespread ambient sexism.
posted by easter queen at 12:32 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Couple of comments deleted. "Fuck you" is not ok here, period, and "go write for a clickbait site" is also not a great way to engage.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:30 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]

I don't think it is true, though. I think highly sexualized women in advertising/mercenary contexts are often threatening to women (not fun).

That's fair; I was definitely approaching this from a man-centered point of view.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:54 PM on August 27, 2015

JHarris: "We (me and friends) were talking about this just last night, I took the skeptical position (as I often do -- hey, there has to be some pushback to some of the memes I hear going around) but they managed to find on the internet that, in fact, this is true, due to precedent from a Federal court case."

Also defacto legal across Canada though I've never seen it away from clothing optional beaches.
posted by Mitheral at 7:28 PM on August 27, 2015

My youngest is breastfeeding. I'm worried that, if I took him somewhere with topless women, he'd think it was an all you can eat buffet. So I guess I don't want him exposed to this.

In my experience with my toddler and hanging out with other women who nurse in public, this is pretty much true. One mom whips it out, suddenly it's shirt-tugging anarchy. Tits everywhere.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:55 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]

I went undercover as a topless performer in Times Square
posted by andoatnp at 9:17 PM on August 30, 2015

Hmm. So we have these female performers, but then there's Chris and David. Chris is their "manager", and David is their "personal bodyguard". They turn their "tips" over to David, and Chris returns their cut (70%) at the end of the day.

In an earlier story the guy who got a percentage was Olivieri, and the women's names were different. There's a pattern here: the "performers" are women; the "managers" are men; the managers get an aggregate percentage but the performers' percentage is based on their individual earnings. The managers can presumably maximise their earnings by recruiting more performers; the performers are limited to the amount they can extract individually.

This feels a lot less like female empowerment than it did when the story first broke.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:59 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]

Mayor's op-ed: "Times Square is a booming tourist and theater destination spot, and this situation is unacceptable."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 12:45 AM on August 31, 2015