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September 3, 2015 7:27 AM Subscribe
Highlights from that episode of The A-Team that guess-starred Boy George (SLVimeo)
That's not even the weirdest thing about that episode. The weirdest thing is what the hell is L.Q. Jones doing there?
The A-Team had a few incongruous guest stars, including but not limited to Hulk Hogan and Isaac Hayes. Rumor had it that the reason they had Hulk Hogan on the show was that he was the only person at that that point who could keep George Peppard and Mr. T on speaking terms. And don't even get me started on the fact that David Hemmings directed a bunch of episodes.
I AM THE QUEEN OF A-TEAM TRIVIA, YO.
posted by holborne at 7:51 AM on September 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
The A-Team had a few incongruous guest stars, including but not limited to Hulk Hogan and Isaac Hayes. Rumor had it that the reason they had Hulk Hogan on the show was that he was the only person at that that point who could keep George Peppard and Mr. T on speaking terms. And don't even get me started on the fact that David Hemmings directed a bunch of episodes.
I AM THE QUEEN OF A-TEAM TRIVIA, YO.
posted by holborne at 7:51 AM on September 3, 2015 [16 favorites]
I do appreciate how on-point Boy George's eye makeup remains through the whole episode.
posted by xingcat at 7:55 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by xingcat at 7:55 AM on September 3, 2015
It was a different world, a world where adults could seriously not realize (or pretend not to realize) that Boy George was gay. An interesting dynamic - because grown adults could pretend not to know this, it was possible for Boy George to have the kind of career - in the eighties! - that would still be basically impossible for a flamboyantly gay pop star today.
I have never been sure whether people really just didn't know - because it was of course impossible that a mainstream-famous man could be visibly gay, therefore someone who seemed to be gay must actually be straight - or whether it was one of those "we won't talk about it if you won't" deals.
posted by Frowner at 7:57 AM on September 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have never been sure whether people really just didn't know - because it was of course impossible that a mainstream-famous man could be visibly gay, therefore someone who seemed to be gay must actually be straight - or whether it was one of those "we won't talk about it if you won't" deals.
posted by Frowner at 7:57 AM on September 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I mean, I grew up in a really right wing town, and one could certainly like Boy George as a small girl and attract no comment at all. Whereas a mere few years later, liking Erasure attracted comment.
posted by Frowner at 7:58 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 7:58 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Hi everybody, I'm Billy Idol!"
"G'day, Billy Idol!"
"Bye, then."
posted by Artw at 7:58 AM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
"G'day, Billy Idol!"
"Bye, then."
posted by Artw at 7:58 AM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have never been sure whether people really just didn't know - because it was of course impossible that a mainstream-famous man could be visibly gay, therefore someone who seemed to be gay must actually be straight - or whether it was one of those "we won't talk about it if you won't" deals.
I don't know, the denial could run pretty deep and it's not like it started in the 80s. Apparently there were huge numbers of sweet little old ladies who sincerely believed that it was such a shame that that nice Liberace never found the right girl.
posted by Naberius at 7:59 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't know, the denial could run pretty deep and it's not like it started in the 80s. Apparently there were huge numbers of sweet little old ladies who sincerely believed that it was such a shame that that nice Liberace never found the right girl.
posted by Naberius at 7:59 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have never been sure whether people really just didn't know - because it was of course impossible that a mainstream-famous man could be visibly gay, therefore someone who seemed to be gay must actually be straight - or whether it was one of those "we won't talk about it if you won't" deals.
My recollection is that it was very definitely the latter. I don't think even Boy George himself was especially reticent about it. Of course, I lived in a liberal East Coast city, so.
posted by holborne at 8:00 AM on September 3, 2015
My recollection is that it was very definitely the latter. I don't think even Boy George himself was especially reticent about it. Of course, I lived in a liberal East Coast city, so.
posted by holborne at 8:00 AM on September 3, 2015
Boy George was never shy about talking about being gay in interviews in the British press at the time. Maybe the US press was "we won't ask, please don't tell us" ?
posted by King Sky Prawn at 8:03 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by King Sky Prawn at 8:03 AM on September 3, 2015
So what was like the Down Home Heartland America cultural take-home re: Boy George's flamboyance? Was it just "oh he's a musician, they're all like that" or something?
posted by griphus at 8:04 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 8:04 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was reading Dance Dance Dance by Haruki Murakami last week, and a good half of that seemed to be the narrator complaining about how terrible poor old Boy George was, possibly just as ultra specific period detail so you could tell it was set in the early 80s rather than the late 80s (when it was published).
posted by dng at 8:11 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by dng at 8:11 AM on September 3, 2015
" it was possible for Boy George to have the kind of career - in the eighties! - that would still be basically impossible for a flamboyantly gay pop star today."
Impossible today?
posted by I-baLL at 8:11 AM on September 3, 2015
Impossible today?
posted by I-baLL at 8:11 AM on September 3, 2015
From Wikipedia: ‘When George was with Culture Club, much was made of his androgynous appearance, and there was speculation about his sexuality. Although he never flatly denied that he was gay, when asked in interviews about his sexual orientation, George gave various answers. He gave a famous, oft-quoted response to an interviewer that he preferred “a nice cup of tea” to sex.’ I think a great many people (in the UK at least) who otherwise might have looked askance at him were happy to take that ‘oft-quoted response’ at face value and not think any further about it.
posted by misteraitch at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by misteraitch at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
So what was like the Down Home Heartland America cultural take-home re: Boy George's flamboyance? Was it just "oh he's a musician, they're all like that" or something?
Mostly, it was willful ignorance. Remember, this is still pretty close to the start of the MTV era, when a video was still an adjunct to the song, which the vast majority of people only ever heard on the radio. But yeah, when people did see Boy George, they mostly just shrugged and said, "Eh, kids these days and their weird music. Whaddaya gonna do?"
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mostly, it was willful ignorance. Remember, this is still pretty close to the start of the MTV era, when a video was still an adjunct to the song, which the vast majority of people only ever heard on the radio. But yeah, when people did see Boy George, they mostly just shrugged and said, "Eh, kids these days and their weird music. Whaddaya gonna do?"
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
The A-Team had a few incongruous guest stars, including but not limited to Hulk Hogan and Isaac Hayes. Rumor had it that the reason they had Hulk Hogan on the show was that he was the only person at that that point who could keep George Peppard and Mr. T on speaking terms. And don't even get me started on the fact that David Hemmings directed a bunch of episodes.
From the George Peppard wiki entry:
HA.
posted by Fizz at 8:17 AM on September 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
From the George Peppard wiki entry:
Peppard was reportedly annoyed by Mr. T upstaging him in his public image, and at one point in their relationship refused to speak directly to Mr. T. Instead, he sent messages through intermediaries (including at times fellow cast members) and for this Peppard was occasionally portrayed by the press as not a team player.'...not a team player."
HA.
posted by Fizz at 8:17 AM on September 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
So what was like the Down Home Heartland America cultural take-home re: Boy George's flamboyance? Was it just "oh he's a musician, they're all like that" or something?
Remember that I was quite small at the time:
My sense was that people thought that the flamboyance was just....a funny act, maybe? Without sexual content? I've since read that there were apparently many young girl Boy George fans who dressed up in his style, and that would not have flown had there been a perception that they were dressing up like a gay guy.
Again, based on memory - I think the perception was "oh, consider all the wacky fashions that Madonna wears, plus all those perfectly heterosexual New Wave performers - it just goes to show you that young people today dress funny". I think it was that straight people in Middle America had no set of cultural references to distinguish between, say, Depeche Mode or any very costume-y New Wave act and actual gay musicians. And the idea that someone could be visibly gay and have a career instead of living in some sordid underworld or scraping by in miserable secrecy - that wasn't something a lot of people believed, partly because it really wasn't possible to be out and employed if you weren't in Chicago or a university town.
I met my first visibly gay person when I was, I think, fifteen, and that was a student teacher in the art department. It's not even that he talked about being gay, and if there had been any noise about him probably being gay from students or other faculty, I'm sure he would not have been able to finish his placement. I am not sure that everyone understood that he was gay. I had virtually no friends at the time, so while it was obvious to me, it wasn't like I was going to chat about it with anyone.
In retrospect, one of my classmates who had some kind of breakdown and a mental hospital stay was probably a lesbian - but I infer this from events, not from how she looked, spoke or acted. I'd say by the time I was a junior in high school, there were a couple of classmates who I figured were queer, and my very first, formative crush I knew was a lesbian because she told me in a really allusive way. But that was it.
A different world - I cannot emphasize this enough. Even in the most benighted corners of the US today, there isn't the same kind of invisibility.
I am sure that there were plenty of people in the Midwest but not in my town, or in my town but not of it, who were both straight and somewhat more culturally sophisticated. But they did not set the tone.
posted by Frowner at 8:22 AM on September 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
Remember that I was quite small at the time:
My sense was that people thought that the flamboyance was just....a funny act, maybe? Without sexual content? I've since read that there were apparently many young girl Boy George fans who dressed up in his style, and that would not have flown had there been a perception that they were dressing up like a gay guy.
Again, based on memory - I think the perception was "oh, consider all the wacky fashions that Madonna wears, plus all those perfectly heterosexual New Wave performers - it just goes to show you that young people today dress funny". I think it was that straight people in Middle America had no set of cultural references to distinguish between, say, Depeche Mode or any very costume-y New Wave act and actual gay musicians. And the idea that someone could be visibly gay and have a career instead of living in some sordid underworld or scraping by in miserable secrecy - that wasn't something a lot of people believed, partly because it really wasn't possible to be out and employed if you weren't in Chicago or a university town.
I met my first visibly gay person when I was, I think, fifteen, and that was a student teacher in the art department. It's not even that he talked about being gay, and if there had been any noise about him probably being gay from students or other faculty, I'm sure he would not have been able to finish his placement. I am not sure that everyone understood that he was gay. I had virtually no friends at the time, so while it was obvious to me, it wasn't like I was going to chat about it with anyone.
In retrospect, one of my classmates who had some kind of breakdown and a mental hospital stay was probably a lesbian - but I infer this from events, not from how she looked, spoke or acted. I'd say by the time I was a junior in high school, there were a couple of classmates who I figured were queer, and my very first, formative crush I knew was a lesbian because she told me in a really allusive way. But that was it.
A different world - I cannot emphasize this enough. Even in the most benighted corners of the US today, there isn't the same kind of invisibility.
I am sure that there were plenty of people in the Midwest but not in my town, or in my town but not of it, who were both straight and somewhat more culturally sophisticated. But they did not set the tone.
posted by Frowner at 8:22 AM on September 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
So what was like the Down Home Heartland America cultural take-home re: Boy George's flamboyance? Was it just "oh he's a musician, they're all like that" or something?
It was the Radical! eighties. The feeling at the time -- at least my recollection of experiencing it as a not-entirely-oblivious child -- was summed up in the title of that Cyndi Lauper album: "She's So Unusual!" It was just a very flamboyant time. At most, Boy George's "unusual"-ness was largely regarded as a gimmick. He wasn't even close to half as flamboyant as, say, David Lee Roth.
And that's the thing. There are a lot of pop stars from the eighties you would be shocked to learn are straight. Like, for example, Duran Duran and Depeche Mode. When George Michael came out -- George freaking Michael, ffs -- it was a genuine surprise to many, many people.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:27 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
It was the Radical! eighties. The feeling at the time -- at least my recollection of experiencing it as a not-entirely-oblivious child -- was summed up in the title of that Cyndi Lauper album: "She's So Unusual!" It was just a very flamboyant time. At most, Boy George's "unusual"-ness was largely regarded as a gimmick. He wasn't even close to half as flamboyant as, say, David Lee Roth.
And that's the thing. There are a lot of pop stars from the eighties you would be shocked to learn are straight. Like, for example, Duran Duran and Depeche Mode. When George Michael came out -- George freaking Michael, ffs -- it was a genuine surprise to many, many people.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:27 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
The answer is None. None more 80s.
posted by symbioid at 8:30 AM on September 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by symbioid at 8:30 AM on September 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
As a kid mainly I saw the schoolyard reaction to titling a song "Do you really want to hurt me?" to which the answer was a resounding yes because kids, obviously. Some of that might have been the look but TBH I think it's mainly that he left the door wide open on that one.
posted by Artw at 8:30 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:30 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Impossible today?
Well, who is the chart-topping femme-y and/or flamboyant gay artist whose work is popular with preteen girls and gets played on whatever the top-forty equivalent is and whose sexuality is not career-defining? There are certainly out gay musicians with successful careers, but Michael Stipe is no Boy George, Le1f is no Boy George, etc. I mean, Boy George was a big deal back then; I think the only equivalent would be if a member of One Direction were gay, out and femmey/gender-non-conforming, and even there it's not like One Direction has a substantial adult audience.
Again, I'm not saying that there are no successful out gay pop stars now, just that the particular combination of fame, femme-y artsy style and popular success still doesn't seem to be a thing. RuPaul, sort of, if you consider RuPaul a pop star? But even there, being a drag queen isn't the same thing as being femme-y in one's stylings.
posted by Frowner at 8:31 AM on September 3, 2015
Well, who is the chart-topping femme-y and/or flamboyant gay artist whose work is popular with preteen girls and gets played on whatever the top-forty equivalent is and whose sexuality is not career-defining? There are certainly out gay musicians with successful careers, but Michael Stipe is no Boy George, Le1f is no Boy George, etc. I mean, Boy George was a big deal back then; I think the only equivalent would be if a member of One Direction were gay, out and femmey/gender-non-conforming, and even there it's not like One Direction has a substantial adult audience.
Again, I'm not saying that there are no successful out gay pop stars now, just that the particular combination of fame, femme-y artsy style and popular success still doesn't seem to be a thing. RuPaul, sort of, if you consider RuPaul a pop star? But even there, being a drag queen isn't the same thing as being femme-y in one's stylings.
posted by Frowner at 8:31 AM on September 3, 2015
Queen is a very manly rock band.
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
(To clarify - Michael Stipe is a huge deal, but not BG-esque in terms of gender performance; Le1f is awesomely costumed but not as famous; etc etc.)
posted by Frowner at 8:35 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by Frowner at 8:35 AM on September 3, 2015
(And I recognize that I am overposting but I will stop: my contention is that the very same homophobia and silencing that were pervasive in Middle-wherever in the eighties were what allowed the visibility of Boy George. That is, that for more conservative straight people now, out gay people are sorta-acceptable as long as they don't look weird/perform gender in unusual ways/etc; and back then, unusual gender performance/appearance/etc could be tolerated as long as it could be believed not to be gay. Just as there are lots of queer women characters on TV now, and they're all ultra-ultra-femme (except for, like, Big Boo) and many of them are not especially queer femme-looking.
This is related to something I've noticed: in conservative middle class environments when I was growing up, young straight women could have very short haircuts and no one remarked on it; now, when I return to those same conservative environments, young straight women virtually never have very short haircuts. My belief is that this is because in the eighties in Middle America, it was so impossible to be visibly queer that no queer woman in that environment would have dared to have a super short haircut because it would have made her a target. Now, because it's possible to be out, conservative straight people steer away from things that they think might cause them to be mistaken for queer. Seriously, you should have seen the haircuts on two of my young, athletic and very straight teachers in HS - no straight woman would have those haircuts now, even if you updated them away from their eighties-ness. )
posted by Frowner at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is related to something I've noticed: in conservative middle class environments when I was growing up, young straight women could have very short haircuts and no one remarked on it; now, when I return to those same conservative environments, young straight women virtually never have very short haircuts. My belief is that this is because in the eighties in Middle America, it was so impossible to be visibly queer that no queer woman in that environment would have dared to have a super short haircut because it would have made her a target. Now, because it's possible to be out, conservative straight people steer away from things that they think might cause them to be mistaken for queer. Seriously, you should have seen the haircuts on two of my young, athletic and very straight teachers in HS - no straight woman would have those haircuts now, even if you updated them away from their eighties-ness. )
posted by Frowner at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I remember that there was a period of re-evaluation that happened with basically every big '80s New Wave act when the first wave of '80s nostalgia hit in the '90s, where everyone figured out that certain (and to 2015 eyes, obviously gay) musicians were gay for the first time. One of my friends in college ca. 1995 was (and still is!) a huge Boy George fan, and she blew everyone's mind in the dorm for 1) being way into Culture Club in the post-Nirvana '90s and 2) matter-of-factly talking about Boy George being gay. It just wasn't something that kids growing up in the 80s had even thought about -- dressing in women's clothing and wearing extreme drag-queen makeup had been co-opted by macho heavy-metal bands to the extent that it was sort of a smokescreen for authentic gayness in music.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2015
In the UK there had been a long history of camp and dragging up in popular entertainment from when pantomime had started. (And George wasn't even that camp, he'd been a fairly decent amateur boxer). We had had Glam Rock... and the main stream of that wasn't' Velvet Goldmine but the very heterosexual Slade, Mud and god help us Gary Glitter just smearing on a bit of eye liner. Boy George (and the rest of the New Romantics) were just kinda seen as an extension of that. I mean it was kinda obvious he was gay and the tea thing a bit laughable but most people just ignored it / didn't care.
I can remember Bronski Beat and of course Frankie Goes To Hollywood beening seen as more obviously gay... though still mainstream by virtue of having amazingly great and popular songs.
The real mystery in retrospect was why Freddie Mercury was seen as straight. I have to admit I didn't know that many gay people (and no one who was really open) but literally no one even suspected... The 'clone' look really was totally out of the mainstream.
Then there was Rob Halford who was just seen as a bit over the top in the metal community
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:49 AM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I can remember Bronski Beat and of course Frankie Goes To Hollywood beening seen as more obviously gay... though still mainstream by virtue of having amazingly great and popular songs.
The real mystery in retrospect was why Freddie Mercury was seen as straight. I have to admit I didn't know that many gay people (and no one who was really open) but literally no one even suspected... The 'clone' look really was totally out of the mainstream.
Then there was Rob Halford who was just seen as a bit over the top in the metal community
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:49 AM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
From the "related posts" box:
Boy George Nearly Killed by Glitter Ball
And in the comments, both commenters (MeFi was a much more intimate venue in those days) were surprised that a link from 1999 was still live in 2001. And guess what? It's still there today! Which is probably the most surprising thing I will encounter all day.
posted by TedW at 9:00 AM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Boy George Nearly Killed by Glitter Ball
And in the comments, both commenters (MeFi was a much more intimate venue in those days) were surprised that a link from 1999 was still live in 2001. And guess what? It's still there today! Which is probably the most surprising thing I will encounter all day.
posted by TedW at 9:00 AM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
^F Bowie
Nothing?
Was actually just going to post: when I was a kid in the 70s, we all said that Bowie was "a transsexual" (that was the term then). I don't think it occurred to us that he could have been gay, because he was too famous and famous people weren't gay unless it was Rex Reed or Wayland Flowers or someone like that. Certainly not rock stars.
posted by holborne at 9:04 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nothing?
Was actually just going to post: when I was a kid in the 70s, we all said that Bowie was "a transsexual" (that was the term then). I don't think it occurred to us that he could have been gay, because he was too famous and famous people weren't gay unless it was Rex Reed or Wayland Flowers or someone like that. Certainly not rock stars.
posted by holborne at 9:04 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, who is the chart-topping femme-y and/or flamboyant gay artist whose work is popular with preteen girls and gets played on whatever the top-forty equivalent is and whose sexuality is not career-defining
(Shaft!)
You're damn right.
posted by Naberius at 9:10 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
(Shaft!)
You're damn right.
posted by Naberius at 9:10 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
And of course the time Phil Collins was in Miami Vice. WARNING EXTREME 80S EXHIBIT CAUTION IN VIEWING
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:38 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:38 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
something something Leonard Cohen on Miami Vice (not linking because I'm waiting for someone to drop a document on my desk).
posted by pxe2000 at 9:40 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by pxe2000 at 9:40 AM on September 3, 2015
I had forgotten how much arguing over tricky details of complex contract disputes there was in 80's TV action dramas.
posted by zixyer at 9:48 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by zixyer at 9:48 AM on September 3, 2015
Everybody like Culture Club!
Okay, but maybe wait until wait until it's actually open.
posted by lumpenprole at 10:11 AM on September 3, 2015
Okay, but maybe wait until wait until it's actually open.
posted by lumpenprole at 10:11 AM on September 3, 2015
I thought about this sort of thing a lot during the bits with the singer in True Detective 2.
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on September 3, 2015
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on September 3, 2015
I have never been sure whether people really just didn't know
I think probably both things were happening, but yeah, pretty sure more people just didn't put it together back then. A lot of performers in the 80s wore makeup and weird hair and big frilly shirts and big hats and stuff. He could have been the bass player for some random hair metal band with close to the same look and no one would have said anything. I do recall kids making "Girl George" jokes in grade school, but that was probably just because of how easy it was to get there from "Boy George" more than anything to do with his sexuality. Though it may have been that, too.
posted by Hoopo at 10:14 AM on September 3, 2015
I think probably both things were happening, but yeah, pretty sure more people just didn't put it together back then. A lot of performers in the 80s wore makeup and weird hair and big frilly shirts and big hats and stuff. He could have been the bass player for some random hair metal band with close to the same look and no one would have said anything. I do recall kids making "Girl George" jokes in grade school, but that was probably just because of how easy it was to get there from "Boy George" more than anything to do with his sexuality. Though it may have been that, too.
posted by Hoopo at 10:14 AM on September 3, 2015
Who could have imagined that Nick Rhodes was straight?
It was a different time. Where men wore lipstick and eyeliner and either were or were not gay.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:31 AM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
It was a different time. Where men wore lipstick and eyeliner and either were or were not gay.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:31 AM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
So what was like the Down Home Heartland America cultural take-home re: Boy George's flamboyance? Was it just "oh he's a musician, they're all like that" or something?
There was a persistent rumor on the playground that he was, in fact, a woman.
This rumor was shot down with the unimpeachable elementary school logic that he can't be a woman because, "Duh, his name is _BOY_ George".
So, yeah, in my small town at least, the idea that it was a woman pretending to be a man (dressed in drag, I guess?) was more accessible than the idea of a gay man.
posted by madajb at 10:49 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
There was a persistent rumor on the playground that he was, in fact, a woman.
This rumor was shot down with the unimpeachable elementary school logic that he can't be a woman because, "Duh, his name is _BOY_ George".
So, yeah, in my small town at least, the idea that it was a woman pretending to be a man (dressed in drag, I guess?) was more accessible than the idea of a gay man.
posted by madajb at 10:49 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
It was a different time. Where men wore lipstick and eyeliner and either were or were not gay.
Is what you're saying that there is nothing more to being gay than sleeping with men - ie no one is meaningfully formed by any one of the gay cultures that exist? So Boy George is otherwise indistinguishable from a straight man in eyeliner, and his work is indistinguishable from that man's work, and therefore it's silly to suggest that one can infer anything about an artist's sexuality by their appearance, manner and artistic production?
I mean, I think that might some day be true, or be true in some situations now, but it wasn't true in the mid-eighties, and it wasn't true for Boy George, whose whole deal was being enmeshed in this particular queer arts scene. And seriously, all you have to do is watch the video for Karma Chameleon - a great favorite of mine at one point! - to see that it's inflected by queerness in a way that similar fun ensemble videos with fancy costumes of the period are not. (And I do adore fun ensemble videos with fancy costumes from the mid-eighties.)
Similarly, eighties/early nineties Morrissey performs gender and sexuality differently from eighties/early nineties Robert Smith, even though they're both alterna-successful musicians who aren't performing standard hetero masculinity. One could even contrast Morrissey with Much Better Human Being Edwyn Collins, since Orange Juice and the Smiths have more musical similarities...and just the whole set of ideas about melancholy and longing that you get in both bands are expressed differently.
posted by Frowner at 10:59 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is what you're saying that there is nothing more to being gay than sleeping with men - ie no one is meaningfully formed by any one of the gay cultures that exist? So Boy George is otherwise indistinguishable from a straight man in eyeliner, and his work is indistinguishable from that man's work, and therefore it's silly to suggest that one can infer anything about an artist's sexuality by their appearance, manner and artistic production?
I mean, I think that might some day be true, or be true in some situations now, but it wasn't true in the mid-eighties, and it wasn't true for Boy George, whose whole deal was being enmeshed in this particular queer arts scene. And seriously, all you have to do is watch the video for Karma Chameleon - a great favorite of mine at one point! - to see that it's inflected by queerness in a way that similar fun ensemble videos with fancy costumes of the period are not. (And I do adore fun ensemble videos with fancy costumes from the mid-eighties.)
Similarly, eighties/early nineties Morrissey performs gender and sexuality differently from eighties/early nineties Robert Smith, even though they're both alterna-successful musicians who aren't performing standard hetero masculinity. One could even contrast Morrissey with Much Better Human Being Edwyn Collins, since Orange Juice and the Smiths have more musical similarities...and just the whole set of ideas about melancholy and longing that you get in both bands are expressed differently.
posted by Frowner at 10:59 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Boy George was so *it* for me in the early 80's lol. Wore that vinyl out on my fisher price turntable.
Thanks for the A-Team link, my girlfriend and I have been singing the A-Team anthem for the past couple of days and this will be a fun thing to pass along to her :-)
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:04 PM on September 3, 2015
Thanks for the A-Team link, my girlfriend and I have been singing the A-Team anthem for the past couple of days and this will be a fun thing to pass along to her :-)
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:04 PM on September 3, 2015
I was about ten years old during Culture Club's salad days, and I had no idea Boy George was gay; my knowledge of gay culture at that time was pretty much non-existent and did not extend to the existence of drag queens. So, as others have said previously in the thread, I thought his persona was just an act in keeping with many other sartorially flamboyant '80s acts.
That said, I was a phenomenally clueless kid who also didn't realize Freddie Mercury and The Pet Shop Boys were gay until long after I probably should have figured it out.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:44 PM on September 3, 2015
That said, I was a phenomenally clueless kid who also didn't realize Freddie Mercury and The Pet Shop Boys were gay until long after I probably should have figured it out.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:44 PM on September 3, 2015
Everyone on my playground was pretty hazy on what gay even was. That's rural Bedfordshire for you.
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
Apparently there were huge numbers of sweet little old ladies who sincerely believed that it was such a shame that that nice Liberace never found the right girl.
Although he never flatly denied that he was gay, when asked in interviews about his sexual orientation, George gave various answers.
I would like to remind everyone that while Boy George and Liberace were gay, not being generally interested in sex is also possible.
posted by JHarris at 1:07 PM on September 3, 2015
Although he never flatly denied that he was gay, when asked in interviews about his sexual orientation, George gave various answers.
I would like to remind everyone that while Boy George and Liberace were gay, not being generally interested in sex is also possible.
posted by JHarris at 1:07 PM on September 3, 2015
Really good to hear some Culture Club love, not least because they seem to get weirdly overlooked by every (mid-)'80s revival that's crossed my path, with the exception of fashion embracing The Hat. Their music was everywhere, Boy George was a Big Deal, but you wouldn't know either from how stereotypical '80s pop is celebrated.
I remember this episode of The A-Team as being when the series broke my suspension of disbelief. Never mind the innumerable more unlikely events in previous episodes, they can't be casual friends with someone as famous as Boy George!
posted by comealongpole at 3:30 PM on September 3, 2015
I remember this episode of The A-Team as being when the series broke my suspension of disbelief. Never mind the innumerable more unlikely events in previous episodes, they can't be casual friends with someone as famous as Boy George!
posted by comealongpole at 3:30 PM on September 3, 2015
..but...I saw George Peppard on the Mr T Celebrity Roast say that "The T stands for tenderness."!
posted by hearthpig at 3:33 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by hearthpig at 3:33 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
All I remember from this episode (which I distinctly recall from my youth as The A Team's 'jump the shark' moment -- see also the above comment from comealongpole) was Mr. T enthusing along the lines of "Shut up, fool! Culture Club is my favourite group!" I tried digging through that highlights reel to see if I could locate that tidbit, but I gave up about five minutes in. Man, even the 'highlights' clip was plodding! Eighties TV drama moves like a pastel-coloured glacier compared to the ADD-jittery styles of modern media.
But yeah: thanks to the OP for this li'l pop culture flashback.
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 3:54 PM on September 3, 2015
But yeah: thanks to the OP for this li'l pop culture flashback.
posted by spoobnooble II: electric bugaboo at 3:54 PM on September 3, 2015
There's an entire series of The A Team I've never seen before where they are working for the CIA and I think there's some new regular characters. I watched an episode on Netflix and it was bizarre.
posted by Artw at 4:03 PM on September 3, 2015
posted by Artw at 4:03 PM on September 3, 2015
I have never seen any episode of 'The A-Team'... except this one, by coincidence. The only thing that I recall is that Boy George and Mr. T were relaxed, teasing and goofing around, and everyone else was kinda stiff and serious.
I actually was a kinda fan of Boy George back in those days, when I was young and snobby about most light pop music, and preferred the more dark and angry music coming out of England. For a pop star, the Boy was cheeky, breezy, funny, provocative, and didn't give a crap, and The Culture Club was a good backing band, they had a nice beat.
Vague trivia: according to an unsourced anecdote, the second unit on The A-Team that filmed the chase sequences held some sort of record for the greatest number of Arriflex 16 cameras damaged or destroyed by any production company.
posted by ovvl at 4:24 PM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I actually was a kinda fan of Boy George back in those days, when I was young and snobby about most light pop music, and preferred the more dark and angry music coming out of England. For a pop star, the Boy was cheeky, breezy, funny, provocative, and didn't give a crap, and The Culture Club was a good backing band, they had a nice beat.
Vague trivia: according to an unsourced anecdote, the second unit on The A-Team that filmed the chase sequences held some sort of record for the greatest number of Arriflex 16 cameras damaged or destroyed by any production company.
posted by ovvl at 4:24 PM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's an entire series of The A Team I've never seen before where they are working for the CIA and I think there's some new regular characters. I watched an episode on Netflix and it was bizarre.
The infamous Season 5, in which Robert Vaughn, who told TV Guide that he had to take the role to pay the mortgage on his new house, pretty much literally phoned in his performance as the A-Team's M.
Yeah, I know, I'm just embarrassing myself at this point.
posted by holborne at 8:10 PM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
The infamous Season 5, in which Robert Vaughn, who told TV Guide that he had to take the role to pay the mortgage on his new house, pretty much literally phoned in his performance as the A-Team's M.
Yeah, I know, I'm just embarrassing myself at this point.
posted by holborne at 8:10 PM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I remember that there was a period of re-evaluation that happened with basically every big '80s New Wave act when the first wave of '80s nostalgia hit in the '90s, where everyone figured out that certain (and to 2015 eyes, obviously gay) musicians were gay for the first time.
Huh. Not the case even in the somewhat backward, conservative province in Holland I grew up in in the eighties. We knew Boy George was gay, suspected it of George Michael and bands like Bronski Beat, Erasure, Pet Shop Boys and The Communards etc were well known as gay bands. To be fair, we also suspected a lot of straight bands of being that too, like Level 42, where the homo erotism between the singer and keyboardist mislead us.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:23 AM on September 4, 2015
Huh. Not the case even in the somewhat backward, conservative province in Holland I grew up in in the eighties. We knew Boy George was gay, suspected it of George Michael and bands like Bronski Beat, Erasure, Pet Shop Boys and The Communards etc were well known as gay bands. To be fair, we also suspected a lot of straight bands of being that too, like Level 42, where the homo erotism between the singer and keyboardist mislead us.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:23 AM on September 4, 2015
And seriously, all you have to do is watch the video for Karma Chameleon - a great favorite of mine at one point! - to see that it's inflected by queerness in a way that similar fun ensemble videos with fancy costumes of the period are not.
Really? Even when compared to the video of Prince Charming, frex? Wasn't the whole New Romantic movement, both gay and straight, informed by the London (gay) club scene of the early eighties anyway?
posted by MartinWisse at 4:58 AM on September 4, 2015
Really? Even when compared to the video of Prince Charming, frex? Wasn't the whole New Romantic movement, both gay and straight, informed by the London (gay) club scene of the early eighties anyway?
posted by MartinWisse at 4:58 AM on September 4, 2015
Wikipedia's List of Guest Stars on 'The A-Team' contains a lot of people that are not stars.
But, hey, Arte Johnson! Glenn Frey! Shecky Greene! And a whole lot of wrestling people.
posted by box at 5:40 AM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
But, hey, Arte Johnson! Glenn Frey! Shecky Greene! And a whole lot of wrestling people.
posted by box at 5:40 AM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wasn't the whole New Romantic movement, both gay and straight, informed by the London (gay) club scene of the early eighties anyway?
Very much so, if I remember my history, which was reinforced by my watching of Soul Boys Of The Western World.
My personal theory was that embracing of an androgynous image was, in part, a reaction of the slide from '77 era punk (and the second wave), which could be very peacocky, into third wave and Oi.
posted by Mezentian at 1:26 AM on September 5, 2015
Very much so, if I remember my history, which was reinforced by my watching of Soul Boys Of The Western World.
My personal theory was that embracing of an androgynous image was, in part, a reaction of the slide from '77 era punk (and the second wave), which could be very peacocky, into third wave and Oi.
posted by Mezentian at 1:26 AM on September 5, 2015
Just remembered this drama Worried About the Boy... worth it for Mark Gatiss as Malcolm McLaren alone. You can watch the whole thing on vimeo.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:25 AM on September 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:25 AM on September 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Holy hell, not only does that co-star Richard "Robb Stark" Madden, he's playing Kirk Brandon, of all folks.
And, by 2010 he whole court case was not long resolved.
To Vimeo!
posted by Mezentian at 4:16 AM on September 5, 2015
And, by 2010 he whole court case was not long resolved.
To Vimeo!
posted by Mezentian at 4:16 AM on September 5, 2015
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posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:49 AM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]