It's a banner year for Superhero identities!
September 6, 2015 5:30 AM   Subscribe

 
Probably the most interesting shakeup to come out of All New, All Different Marvel, which Has tended towards Mostly The Same, Slightly Shuffled.
posted by Artw at 5:51 AM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


Completely apart from the news it imparts, the linked article is a really good essay on who the Hulk is and has been what that means.
posted by eustacescrubb at 5:54 AM on September 6, 2015 [16 favorites]


Related: Bruce Wayne Is No Longer Batman. Someone Else Is [Kotaku].
posted by Fizz at 5:59 AM on September 6, 2015


How's this gonna affect Film Crit Hulk?
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:07 AM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


That's a really good article. Thanks for posting it!
posted by daisyk at 6:08 AM on September 6, 2015


There was so much to love about the Greg Pak run on Hulk and Hercules that featured Amadeus Cho. I've still got all the trades.

Normally I don't care much about Hulk-- I haven't followed the multicoloured Hulks thing at all-- but with this reveal, I'm suddenly excited about the Hulk in a way I haven't been in years.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:13 AM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


This reminds me of Mighty Avengers in that Marvel is injecting some much-needed diversity into their headliners, putting that effort in the hands of an extremely capable writer...and then teaming said writer with an artist I would really prefer not to give money to.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:15 AM on September 6, 2015 [8 favorites]


How's this gonna affect Film Crit Hulk?


Plenty of material for Korean Film Crit Hulk.
posted by Artw at 6:22 AM on September 6, 2015 [6 favorites]


They should do the Hercules/Amadeus Cho thing instead, IMNSHO.
posted by mikelieman at 6:37 AM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


and then teaming said writer with an artist I would really prefer not to give money to.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I had to remind myself who Frank Cho is, and now I'm disappointed.

Although, I just have to share this unrelated story, which made me feel better about comics as a whole: A couple of days ago I was in Barnes & Noble, and they had a Ms. Marvel compilation displayed at the checkout. The guy at the counter noticed me looking at it, and started talking to me about it, because he was super excited about Ms. Marvel being a non-objectified POC woman.

I have hope that things will change.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:03 AM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


On the upside Greg Pak is pretty great and has been on a roll lately.
posted by Artw at 7:14 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


This reminds me of Mighty Avengers in that Marvel is injecting some much-needed diversity into their headliners,

By which you mean taking all of their "big" characters and "diversifying" them.
(I think it is all now).

It's comics, and it will be most likely reversed, and it may or may not be pandering to DIVERSITY!, and it may or may not have an impact (are comocs on "drug store spinner racks yet?) and who knows how sales will react?

But there is definitely someone going on at Marvel that was not reflected in the 1970s LSD era.
Which I feel has more to do with movie casting.

[I love Mighty Avengers, Land's art aside, and I have no real exposure to "Amadeus Cho", but Frank Cho seems to be a solid artist}
posted by Mezentian at 7:16 AM on September 6, 2015


I'm sure he's not the first to point it out, but Chu's observation about the Hulk and Oppenheimer is spot on. I'd always associated the Hulk's origin to the '50s/'60s atomic-monster craze and abstractly to the invention of the atomic bomb, but never quite made the symbolic leap of Bruce Banner being cursed to be the living embodiment of his own weapon. Maybe I grew up a little bit too close to this stuff as a kid, so it just blended into the wallpaper.

Did a little bit of reading up on Frank Cho. I was kind of dimly aware that he was known for doing a lot of "sexy" pin-up illustrations of superheroines in the Dave Stevens vein. It turns out that Cho is also known for being more than a little bit tasteless as well.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:19 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm sure he's not the first to point it out, but Chu's observation about the Hulk and Oppenheimer is spot on.

He's not the first to point out anything.It was an insufferable article,

I said that of all the demographic types in American society that best suited the alter ego of the Incredible Hulk—the emotionally repressed brainiac with a whole lot of rage ready to suddenly unleash at an unexpected moment—a young Asian-American dude would be the best choice. And they listened.

That's some hubris there.... and Michael Bay is wondering how he can film that.

Aside from the fact everyone has called Cho as the new Hulk (which is now a title, like Thor and Spider-Man and Captain American) for weeks, this is not newsy-news.

but never quite made the symbolic leap of Bruce Banner being cursed to be the living embodiment of his own weapon

There are many good arcs to follow, because this is often raised. The Joe Fixit Era, for example.

It turns out that Cho is also known for being more than a little bit tasteless as well.

Those are quite hilarious, if you ask me. But I survived the 1990s.
posted by Mezentian at 7:29 AM on September 6, 2015


I love me some Amadeus Cho, the same way I love pre-vamp Jubilee and Cassandra Cain. (I don't know much about vampJubilee, it seemed like an unnecessary way to grimdark her. Her life was not super sunshine and roses before.)

All I want to know is if Delphyne Gorgon is gonna show up. That'd be quite a green-skinned power couple.
posted by zix at 7:32 AM on September 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


I've really liked all the Amadeus Cho stuff I've read so yay!
posted by griphus at 7:34 AM on September 6, 2015


ugh that face (both of them)...was this cooked up by dreamworks animation? ~^
posted by sexyrobot at 7:34 AM on September 6, 2015


Obvious question is obvious: When Amadeus is Hulked out, how much of Amadeus will be driving?

The Hulk has varied over the years between raw rage with limitless strength, the familiar child-like persona, more calculating versions and intelligent versions. Banner has been portrayed as being in control and out of control of Hulk's actions, capable and incapable of triggering the transformation, aware and unaware of what the Hulk has done when he changes back, consciously controlling the Hulk and as a completely separate persona. So Chulk is capable of being any of those.

Cho is even more defined by his intelligence than Banner, to the point where's it's basically a superpower, so it will be interesting to see how that gets worked in. Will mental strain in human form trigger the change? Will Chulk have any of Cho's pattern recognition and rapid cognition abilities? If so, will Chulk be less vulnerable to rapid exhaustion caused by that than Cho?
posted by delfin at 7:50 AM on September 6, 2015


I don't care how many pinups he draws, I won't say a word against Frank Cho. Comics have so many garbage artists who still get work (Greg Land, Erica Henderson) that I'll celebrate every time I see a Cho or a Conner working on a book.

please hire Amanda Conner to draw all the comics.
posted by Sternmeyer at 8:33 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't know much about vampJubilee

Single mom vampJubilee was pretty much the best thing to happen to Jubilee in over a decade. The whole depowered Wondra phase is best forgotten.

Hulk (which is now a title, like Thor and Spider-Man and Captain American)

It's been a title at least since She-Hulk showed up. Pretty sure there's plenty of prior art on calling any gamma-irradiated person in the Marvel Universe a "hulk". In fact most of the superheroes you listed have been many, many different people dating back to the dark ages when the idea of a Marvel movie was a thing of dread, not a near guaranteed hit. It's little to do with movie casting and everything to do with Marvel (thanks Axel Alonso!) finally waking up and realizing their characters were stale and, outside the X-Men, not terribly diverse. And readers have responded.
posted by davros42 at 10:12 AM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm at a cabin for the holiday weekend with seven tween girls and we just had the best conversation about the need for diversity in media inspired by this news.
posted by padraigin at 10:12 AM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


tl;dr –What is going to happen to Banner?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:51 AM on September 6, 2015


I never thought I'd say anything remotely like this, but I'd actually defend Greg Land's work on Mighty Avengers (and just on that title). Look, Land can actually draw; it may have simply been a matter of finding a writer who required that he elevate his game, in much the same way that the best work that Dave Gibbons has done in his entire career is still Watchmen. Pak could work a similar miracle on Frank Cho, who, all kidding aside, really does have an excellent grasp of anatomy. (Fun fact: Cho's first professional work was for Penthouse Comix.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:58 AM on September 6, 2015


Oh, Land definitely can draw, he just chooses not to most of the time. His earlier comics work, like that Nightwing/Huntress miniseries, aren't half bad. It's just when he traces other people's stuff (oh, I'm sorry, "uses reference") that his pages become a mass of disconnected porn poses, celebrity cameos and that same damn shouting face over and over. From what I saw of Mighty Avengers all of that was front and center, but I did drop it after two issues.

Cho, meanwhile, is a pretty good artist but his public persona is exactly the stereotypical asshat who reacts to any discussion of gender issues in comics like he's a three-year-old having his toys taken away. It makes me very much not want to buy anything with his name on the cover.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:02 PM on September 6, 2015


in much the same way that the best work that Dave Gibbons has done in his entire career is still Watchmen.

Well, he did create Rogue Trooper and a do a bunch of other stuff for 2000AD. It's not like his stuff since is chopped liver either.

Land on MA did not excite me, but only had one or too obvious porn poses and one character whose hair he could not draw.
posted by Artw at 2:05 PM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


Frank Cho on art is an irritating development, to be sure. Back when Cho's strip Liberty Meadows was running in the Washington Post, I used to read it hoping it would prove a worthy successor to Bloom County (Spoilers: nope). Here's Cho on his character Brandy (who of course was drawn as a pin-up girl with huge tits while all the male characters were either much more cartoonish or talking animals):
Cho says he understands men much more fully than women. As he once explained, Brandy's personality is completely made up. He has no idea what real women think, so he simply made her the sanest character.
As for Land: I do my best to avoid buying anything Land, but from what I have seen (in multi-artist trades and such)-- Yeah, he can draw. He's slightly less awful than he was. These days his male characters have expression and intention. His female characters just don't, and never have. Their facial features may be arranged into an expression of some kind, but they never seem to be looking at or talking to anything or anyone; they are just dead-eyed masks which-- fatally for a comics artist-- tell no story.

It perplexes me, because Land has shown with his men that he is capable of drawing people. I don't know what's so hard about "draw women like they're people," but apparently for Land and Cho (and others like Rob Liefeld and J. Scott Campbell) this is some kind of insurmountable barrier.
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:54 PM on September 6, 2015


Artw: "in much the same way that the best work that Dave Gibbons has done in his entire career is still Watchmen.

Well, he did create Rogue Trooper and a do a bunch of other stuff for 2000AD. It's not like his stuff since is chopped liver either.

Land on MA did not excite me, but only had one or too obvious porn poses and one character whose hair he could not draw.
"

Gosh, whodathunk Art would kick in with 2000AD info?

I keed, I keed. All due love and respect, Art...
posted by Samizdata at 3:42 PM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, is this where I mention Al Ewing, writer on MA, has some pretty cool 2000AD credits under his belt - including Zombo, which features President Donald Trump. An eerie vision of the future?
posted by Artw at 4:15 PM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


These days his male characters have expression and intention. His female characters just don't, and never have. Their facial features may be arranged into an expression of some kind, but they never seem to be looking at or talking to anything or anyone; they are just dead-eyed masks which-- fatally for a comics artist-- tell no story.

This is almost certainly because the image sources Land uses for women when lightboxing are very different than the ones he uses for other characters. It's strongly suspected in many quarters that he traces pornographic imagery, and in any case he shamelessly recycles imagery even when it break storytelling flow.
posted by kewb at 5:00 PM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh this will be great! I'm looking forward to either Ki Hong Lee or Osric Chau getting the part for the inevitable movie.
posted by numaner at 7:05 PM on September 6, 2015


I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, yay diversity! Marvel and DC both could use non-stereotypical, non-white characters. On the other hand, these things never stick. Hulk will likely be Bruce Banner again within a couple of years and Amadeus Cho will likely be relegated to B-list once the character is out of Greg Pak's hands. The classic characters always revert back to the original template.

I wish I liked Frank Cho's work better. His draftsmanship is impeccable but I can do without the persistent creepiness.
posted by Eikonaut at 11:37 PM on September 6, 2015


The classic characters always revert back to the original template.

I think if it has a chance to succeed anywhere it's with a character like the Hulk, which has a very self-limiting condition when it comes to telling more stories. If the nostalgia factor was enough to keep sales high all the time that would be one thing but Marvel has struggled with keeping interest for a monthly book for a long time. So long as interest in this Hulk persists I think we're more likely to see a two-Hulk situation, a la the new normal for Spider-man, than we are Cho simply going away or back to the old ways.

I'm not sure how avoidable this ever is in a nostalgia business, much less a nostalgia business dependent on merch sales. But I think adding more diversity to the high-profile players makes it more likely that the tiny number of new creations will be something other than white dudes.
posted by phearlez at 8:40 AM on September 8, 2015


I just don't understand why artists would keep pulling female superhero reference shots from porn instead of MMA, where there are now enough decent female fighters to have a pretty diverse set. Like, all respect to the athleticism of Stoya, but if I'm drawing someone firing power bolts or smashing a jaw, I'm gonna be GIS for Ronda Rousey or Cyborg Justino, not least because they're more likely to have the right flexion for musculature that I find non-intuitive to draw (like getting back muscles right for a punch from the hip). Manara's OK, but why copy from a porn Mobius who is pointedly not drawing power fantasies?
posted by klangklangston at 11:23 AM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Because terrible.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


There's also a huge supply of reference for women in skintight outfits posing dramatically/dynamically from pro wrestling, but again, terrible.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:32 AM on September 8, 2015


Pro wrestling (even profoundly silly shit like GLOW) at least has reference footage of the women in at least moderately aggressive or combat acting — until MMA, it was probably the best place to take female superhero fighting poses from, even if the fact that it's staged means they're pulling their punches and not getting the same clear musculature. Men's pro-wrestling is still a pretty good place to pull reference from for people taking a beating, since there's much more work on the part of the person getting hit in selling the kayfabe. Outside of some spectacular, extraordinary bouts, for most men's fighting (MMA or boxing), the visible impact of punches etc. is diminished by the training of the athletes — getting gut punched wears on a fighter, but they barely show it except in having slower reactions, stuff that's not easily captured in stills. Wrestling's burlesque, at least for me, looks much more real in reactions precisely because of the fakery, similar to how a folio of a door closing sounds more like a door closing than an actual door.

I just feel like the first artist to consistently move female superheros out of porn/pinup and into regular palpable force will be imitated pretty widely pretty quickly. It's not necessarily easy — internal anatomy is really hard to master! — but there seems like this huge unserved desire for this stuff, which is just generally being ignored by solipsistic wankbook artists. Who knows? Maybe even seeing more female fighters will help male comic fans be better at recognizing the wildly wrong anatomy of female superheroes on the page. (But then, I'm not sure male comic book fans understand how many muscles are in the arm or why a cover with Captain America's pecs on pecs on pecs is ridiculous.)
posted by klangklangston at 11:50 AM on September 8, 2015


Talking of terrible, in seemingly great news Marvel just announced a Red Wolf series with art by a Native American creator and...

Well...

Fuck.

We really can't have nice things.
posted by Artw at 3:51 PM on September 8, 2015


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