"...unfamiliarity does not equate to impracticality."
September 18, 2015 2:14 PM Subscribe
The Case for More Traffic Roundabouts — "Here’s why: Using simple principles of physics, roundabouts dramatically reduce crash rates, as well as injuries and deaths. They diminish vehicle emissions. They are a more effective use of road space, and cost less to maintain than traditional four-way intersections. And it’s time that America learns to love them."
I love roundabouts, they're fun. as a start we should replace all busy four-way stop intersections with them.
posted by sineater at 2:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sineater at 2:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The problem with roundabouts is not the roundabouts -- it's the other drivers.
Cut down on them and you'd dramatically improve emissions, too.
posted by notyou at 2:27 PM on September 18, 2015 [23 favorites]
Cut down on them and you'd dramatically improve emissions, too.
posted by notyou at 2:27 PM on September 18, 2015 [23 favorites]
While playing Cities: Skylines, most players hit a point where managing traffic flow is vitally important to the planning of their city. It's at this point when I learned how amazing roundabouts are.
It's a shame that Americans detest using them so much. My wife flips out when we encounter a roundabout. She finds them completely disorienting and gets easily confused about which direction she needs to leave the circle to get where she's going. Maybe we'll get our roundabout revolution after the whole self-driving car thing takes off.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 2:29 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's a shame that Americans detest using them so much. My wife flips out when we encounter a roundabout. She finds them completely disorienting and gets easily confused about which direction she needs to leave the circle to get where she's going. Maybe we'll get our roundabout revolution after the whole self-driving car thing takes off.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 2:29 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Roundabouts?" Call them "Rotaries" . What do you call traffic lights? "stopandgoerodoodles"?
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 2:32 PM on September 18, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 2:32 PM on September 18, 2015 [36 favorites]
When you spend some time driving through Europe and using roundabouts and then come back to the USA, and you find yourself making a full stop at a 4-way intersection with nobody else around for miles... then it all makes sense.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:34 PM on September 18, 2015 [45 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:34 PM on September 18, 2015 [45 favorites]
Roundabouts are the shit. I'm always so happy to be going through one instead of a light.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:34 PM on September 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:34 PM on September 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
My Southern California community uses them pretty extensively (you can see some in the picture), and I love them. Most people seem to have figured out the rules, and almost never having to stop is awesome. I wish they were everywhere.
posted by Huck500 at 2:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Huck500 at 2:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I find roundabouts soooooo much easier than busy four way stops. Just a single place to look, rather than checking all directions for cars, bikes, and pedestrians, while simultaneously trying to keep track of whose turn it is to go. We recently got two of them at two of the worst stop-sign controlled intersections in Santa Cruz and traffic has been phenomenally better. The biggest problem is people that treat the yield at the entrance as a stop sign.
posted by Llama-Lime at 2:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Llama-Lime at 2:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
No no no. I live in a country that is awash with roundabouts. They are fine for lightly trafficked areas but a jam factory anytime the flow rises. Four-way intersections are much more efficient.
posted by chavenet at 2:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
For some reason there are five of them in a row on the less than two-mile stretch between Mt. Horeb, WI and the highway. Mysterious social experiment? Small-town urban planner with big European dreams? I have no idea but I suspect a hermetic connection with the Forevertron about thirty miles north.
posted by theodolite at 2:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 2:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
My concern is that as near as I can tell, roundabouts rely not only on people following the rules, but having common courtesy once a threshold of traffic density is passed. Of those things, only the traffic density exists here in Texas.
posted by cmoj at 2:38 PM on September 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by cmoj at 2:38 PM on September 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
Hey, when you get done with the roundabout thing maybe you can tackle the metric thing.
posted by ostranenie at 2:39 PM on September 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by ostranenie at 2:39 PM on September 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
These are fairly common (at least by US standards) in Massachusetts; I used to go through 6 on a ten mile drive from Melrose to Cambridge, and my daughter learned to drive on this route. There used to be more of them, but the state began ripping them out about 10 years ago. Now they seem to be putting new ones in.
posted by mr vino at 2:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mr vino at 2:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I grew up with roundabouts, and stop signs seemed so weird to me when I first encountered them in the US. I was all "what if they don't stop?" [*]
Then I encountered rotaries in Boston again, and realized ah, they work much better if people on the road are A*holes.
So is this a sign that America is waking up to the A*holes in our midst?
[*] And it's ironic, because after 10+ years, after I had become pretty complacent about stop signs, I did get rammed amidships by a distracted driver running a stop sign. Total loss, 100% payout, which didn't really cover my replacement cost. Oh well.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Then I encountered rotaries in Boston again, and realized ah, they work much better if people on the road are A*holes.
So is this a sign that America is waking up to the A*holes in our midst?
[*] And it's ironic, because after 10+ years, after I had become pretty complacent about stop signs, I did get rammed amidships by a distracted driver running a stop sign. Total loss, 100% payout, which didn't really cover my replacement cost. Oh well.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have never understood why people in the US seem bizarrely content to wait so... ridiculously... long... to turn left at intersections, when instead they could have zipped through on a roundabout.
posted by meehawl at 2:41 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by meehawl at 2:41 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Considering that large parts of post-fire Chicago were designed on the Haussmann plan, it would make sense to add traffic circles as well, rather than having six-way intersections all running directly into each other.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:44 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:44 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Roundabouts are generally pretty neat, unless you're on a bike. They're death on wheels for cyclists, who prefer stop signs signs that they can just blast through.
(you saw that hamburger, right?)
posted by scruss at 2:50 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
(you saw that hamburger, right?)
posted by scruss at 2:50 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Mythbusters did a quite convincing study of the roundabout vs the four-way stop on the "Crossroads Conundrum" segment of this episode.
posted by fairmettle at 2:52 PM on September 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 2:52 PM on September 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
reynir, do you know what that image is of? That's just... I just can't stop staring at the insanity of that intersection.
posted by gnidan at 2:53 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by gnidan at 2:53 PM on September 18, 2015
Massachusetts, the apparent rotary capital of the nation, can't even do rotaries right.
State Route 2 has a rotary in Concord. The dual lanes are not marked. There are no path signals on the asphalt. I've even had some woman pull out into the rotary, put her left arm out the window and stop me from going out of my exit while she pulled past me.
Congratulations, America. Like football you've absolutely fucking ruined rotaries.
posted by Talez at 2:54 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
State Route 2 has a rotary in Concord. The dual lanes are not marked. There are no path signals on the asphalt. I've even had some woman pull out into the rotary, put her left arm out the window and stop me from going out of my exit while she pulled past me.
Congratulations, America. Like football you've absolutely fucking ruined rotaries.
posted by Talez at 2:54 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ah, that would be The Magic Roundabout.
Every American community should have one. For the LOLs.
posted by Wordshore at 2:55 PM on September 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
Every American community should have one. For the LOLs.
posted by Wordshore at 2:55 PM on September 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think roundabouts are a pretty good idea in situations where there is only vehicular traffic and you're not in a dense urban area. I just wish that once I could read an article about roundabouts where they were confident enough to
a) actually draw their comparison diagrams to scale, because traffic circles are huge space wasters compared to ordinary intersections, and
b) admit that roundabouts without traffic lights are basically murder machines for pedestrians.
Instead we get the usual "why don't Americans like roundabouts? Perhaps it is because they are... bad people?"
tl;dr: there are tradeoffs, and not everything has to be a culture war.
posted by phooky at 2:56 PM on September 18, 2015 [48 favorites]
a) actually draw their comparison diagrams to scale, because traffic circles are huge space wasters compared to ordinary intersections, and
b) admit that roundabouts without traffic lights are basically murder machines for pedestrians.
Instead we get the usual "why don't Americans like roundabouts? Perhaps it is because they are... bad people?"
tl;dr: there are tradeoffs, and not everything has to be a culture war.
posted by phooky at 2:56 PM on September 18, 2015 [48 favorites]
We're getting roundabouts in neighborhoods here in Austin as traffic flow devices: they're meant to slow down ht people who go flying through urban residential areas with yards at 40 mph or so. There's one on my street now and I love it. (I'm also prejudiced in favor of them after living in the UK as a teenager--they were terrifying at first but I learned to love them.)
posted by immlass at 3:07 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by immlass at 3:07 PM on September 18, 2015
As a driver, I love roundabouts! And as a pedestrian they're pretty decent. If nothing else, I was convinced of their efficiency by Tom Vanderbilt's book.
But as a cyclist, they're really frustrating, at least the ones around here are. One tends to get the bike lane dumped onto the sidewalk, which is uneven and occasionally has actual pedestrians! (Altho most of the ones around here are in relatively low-ped areas.) In theory (and legally IIRC) you could merge into traffic, but no-one expects that and it's totally terrifying.
Then there's the roundabout where the bike trail just Ts into the roundabout and you have to either dismount or take an ridiculously sharp turn into the crosswalk, cross three separate streets, and then get back on the trail. (sigh: here's the intersection in question.) My kingdom for a skybridge.
posted by epersonae at 3:08 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
But as a cyclist, they're really frustrating, at least the ones around here are. One tends to get the bike lane dumped onto the sidewalk, which is uneven and occasionally has actual pedestrians! (Altho most of the ones around here are in relatively low-ped areas.) In theory (and legally IIRC) you could merge into traffic, but no-one expects that and it's totally terrifying.
Then there's the roundabout where the bike trail just Ts into the roundabout and you have to either dismount or take an ridiculously sharp turn into the crosswalk, cross three separate streets, and then get back on the trail. (sigh: here's the intersection in question.) My kingdom for a skybridge.
posted by epersonae at 3:08 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Central Indiana has gone nuts for roundabouts, big time. They're popping-up everywhere, and have been for quite a few years now. Yet, I still encounter drivers who full-stop before entering, even though there is no one else in the circle. Gah!
One interesting thing I noticed...A roundabout went in a few years ago near my home. It's relatively large and one can make a bit of good fun of it, racing around the circle and then splitting-off to race up the hill. The more recent roundabouts, though, are much smaller circles and much harder to have any fun with at all.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:08 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
One interesting thing I noticed...A roundabout went in a few years ago near my home. It's relatively large and one can make a bit of good fun of it, racing around the circle and then splitting-off to race up the hill. The more recent roundabouts, though, are much smaller circles and much harder to have any fun with at all.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:08 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
We are getting more and more roundabouts around here and I love them. It's so much quicker where they make sense. Part of the reason for slow adoption might be found in the one that replaced a 4-way stop in my hometown recently. There have been many accidents though mostly not too bad because people are going slowly. People who don't barrel in with complete disregard seem to sit and what for *something* to happen before they enter for a long time. And the worst was a discussion my grandma was just having with friends about whether the North/South or the East/West has the right of way to enter the roundabout as if the other way should always yield. They were confused because all entrances are marked yield and that can't possibly be right. My grandma knew the drill, but her confused friends couldn't be convinced.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 3:09 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 3:09 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Roundabouts are great for cars, but they are incredibly dangerous for bikes and pedestrians. A four way stop slows cars and is safest for bikes and pedestrians. So we should abandon roundabouts and go back to four way stops.
posted by monotreme at 3:09 PM on September 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by monotreme at 3:09 PM on September 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Until we have smart roads, smart traffic signals, and smart motor vehicles, where all three communicate with each other and ease the cognitive burden on the human driver, there will continue to be unnecessary intersection fatalities. Roads in 2015 are, alas, as "dumb" as roads in ancient Rome. Self driving cars will become feasible only when roads, cars and signals are designed together and brought into the 21st century.
posted by Sir Rinse at 3:09 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by Sir Rinse at 3:09 PM on September 18, 2015
In addition to these reductions, researchers have found that roundabouts reduce fatal collisions by as much as 90%, and pedestrian/cyclist incidents by 40%, when gauged with traditional intersections.
This really sounds counterintuitive to me, since rotaries tend to either have no infrastructure for pedestrians (making them basically a big obstacle to get around) or a complex set of crosswalks and/or traffic lights that slow everything down (I'm thinking in particular Dupont Circle in DC) and invite crazy/stupid behavior. It'd be nice if we could have pedestrian flyovers like in that Shanghai picture, but that's not feasible in most places.
posted by psoas at 3:10 PM on September 18, 2015
This really sounds counterintuitive to me, since rotaries tend to either have no infrastructure for pedestrians (making them basically a big obstacle to get around) or a complex set of crosswalks and/or traffic lights that slow everything down (I'm thinking in particular Dupont Circle in DC) and invite crazy/stupid behavior. It'd be nice if we could have pedestrian flyovers like in that Shanghai picture, but that's not feasible in most places.
posted by psoas at 3:10 PM on September 18, 2015
We had a family reunion this past summer in central Florida, and Mrs. Mosley and I went in with several other family members to rent a house in "The Villages", which is a behemoth of a retirement community just south of Ocala.
Prior to that trip, I was very much enthused for roundabouts. But after spending a week there and needing to circumvent eight to ten of those each time I wanted to leave the area (and, or course, eight to ten in order to return to the rental), I can see how some people would get sick of them really quick.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 3:11 PM on September 18, 2015
Prior to that trip, I was very much enthused for roundabouts. But after spending a week there and needing to circumvent eight to ten of those each time I wanted to leave the area (and, or course, eight to ten in order to return to the rental), I can see how some people would get sick of them really quick.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 3:11 PM on September 18, 2015
actually draw their comparison diagrams to scale, because traffic circles are huge space wasters compared to ordinary intersections
Is that really true in the majority of cases, though? Disclosure, I'm from MA, and we certainly have a lot of rotaries that are pretty sizable. However, that seems to mainly be a function of how many lanes of traffic the intersecting roads have -- if you've got 4 lane roads hitting a rotary, it kinda ends up having to be much bigger. In contrast, on smaller residential roads you can have a rotary that's basically a 4-way stop with a pole in the center (and we definitely have those, and they are vastly preferable to constant stop-and-go action on stretches of road with moderate traffic).
posted by tocts at 3:11 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is that really true in the majority of cases, though? Disclosure, I'm from MA, and we certainly have a lot of rotaries that are pretty sizable. However, that seems to mainly be a function of how many lanes of traffic the intersecting roads have -- if you've got 4 lane roads hitting a rotary, it kinda ends up having to be much bigger. In contrast, on smaller residential roads you can have a rotary that's basically a 4-way stop with a pole in the center (and we definitely have those, and they are vastly preferable to constant stop-and-go action on stretches of road with moderate traffic).
posted by tocts at 3:11 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
because traffic circles are huge space wasters compared to ordinary intersections
If they are, it's not by much, especially when you count the turn lanes required in most intersections that would be considered for replacement by a roundabout.
Instead we get the usual "why don't Americans like roundabouts? Perhaps it is because they are... bad people?"
That's what you got from the article? Really?
posted by tonycpsu at 3:13 PM on September 18, 2015
If they are, it's not by much, especially when you count the turn lanes required in most intersections that would be considered for replacement by a roundabout.
Instead we get the usual "why don't Americans like roundabouts? Perhaps it is because they are... bad people?"
That's what you got from the article? Really?
posted by tonycpsu at 3:13 PM on September 18, 2015
Isn't it curiously strange that the one place in the UK that is supposed to be based on the American Model (Milton Keynes) is the one place that has the most roundabouts.
It works very well and I liked living there.
It may be though, that it was completely planned before any construction work was done that has allowed it to be a success.
posted by Burn_IT at 3:17 PM on September 18, 2015
It works very well and I liked living there.
It may be though, that it was completely planned before any construction work was done that has allowed it to be a success.
posted by Burn_IT at 3:17 PM on September 18, 2015
That's just... I just can't stop staring at the insanity of that intersection.
Makes sense to me. It's an uneven five way intersection of dealing with multiple traffic directions. This system would keep the intersection flowing more smoothly than a system of lights, and its much cheaper than a range of overpasses. In fact its combination of painted roundabouts, give-way lines and outer/inner system is very clever. It's probably confusing for right-lane drivers to parse because it's a left-lane driving system, but as long as its drivers give follow way to traffic on their right (or on the left for right lane drivers) it would work like a charm.
posted by Thella at 3:17 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Makes sense to me. It's an uneven five way intersection of dealing with multiple traffic directions. This system would keep the intersection flowing more smoothly than a system of lights, and its much cheaper than a range of overpasses. In fact its combination of painted roundabouts, give-way lines and outer/inner system is very clever. It's probably confusing for right-lane drivers to parse because it's a left-lane driving system, but as long as its drivers give follow way to traffic on their right (or on the left for right lane drivers) it would work like a charm.
posted by Thella at 3:17 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Roundabouts that replace traffic lights are usually great. When they are for slowing traffic, they are only slightly less annoying than speed bumps. And until people get more used to them, they can be really scary when an aggressive idiot uses them. I have found them particularly tricky when I'm driving on the left side instead of my normal right side.
posted by Bee'sWing at 3:19 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bee'sWing at 3:19 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't mind them at all, but I don't understand why they are often built so close to each other. I know of two that are about two blocks apart and another pair on a highway that are maybe a quarter mile apart on highway.
posted by soelo at 3:19 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by soelo at 3:19 PM on September 18, 2015
Central Indiana has gone nuts for roundabouts, big time.
Yep, Carmel (real life Eagleton) has got more than any city in the country, and Fishers, desperate to catch up, is putting them in everywhere as well.
Love'em, especially the super double roundabouts over Keystone.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:21 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yep, Carmel (real life Eagleton) has got more than any city in the country, and Fishers, desperate to catch up, is putting them in everywhere as well.
Love'em, especially the super double roundabouts over Keystone.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:21 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Roundabouts?" Call them "Rotaries" . What do you call traffic lights? "stopandgoerodoodles"?
No! Roundabouts and rotaries are two similar but very different things, at least where I live. Or possibly just in my head... Anyway, it seems like a useful distinction, so:
A roundabout, you'd put in place of a four-way stop with light traffic, or a two-way stop with enough traffic that maybe there should be a light. It's small. There are a bunch of these in new residential subdivisions around here. They're great.
A rotary, which North America seems to have experimented with in the seventies and then abandoned because it's completely fucking horrible, is the same thing, but bigger and with more traffic on it. Terrible. Cloverleaf interchanges work much, much better for that purpose, and unlike much of Europe, we've got room for them.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:22 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
No! Roundabouts and rotaries are two similar but very different things, at least where I live. Or possibly just in my head... Anyway, it seems like a useful distinction, so:
A roundabout, you'd put in place of a four-way stop with light traffic, or a two-way stop with enough traffic that maybe there should be a light. It's small. There are a bunch of these in new residential subdivisions around here. They're great.
A rotary, which North America seems to have experimented with in the seventies and then abandoned because it's completely fucking horrible, is the same thing, but bigger and with more traffic on it. Terrible. Cloverleaf interchanges work much, much better for that purpose, and unlike much of Europe, we've got room for them.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:22 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
The shopping center near my house has one particularly terrible awful no good designed faux-roundabout. Its more of a boulevard with some continuous middle turning lane nightmare that nobody understands how to merge in and out of and causes long backups in the shopping area near by. There are a handful of other badly designed roundies in the area, due to the fact that one direction has a four lane road crossing a two lane road and so you've got weird merging issues rather than smooth in and outs needed. I'm pretty sure they are permanently giving them a bad name in our neighborhood when they could be used to great effect.
posted by msbutah at 3:22 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by msbutah at 3:22 PM on September 18, 2015
Folks here and elsewhere seem to be using the terms rotary and roundabout interchangeably, but it also seems like some people are trying to use the two terms to distinguish between different designs, e.g. here and here.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:24 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 3:24 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hey! Yay! So I wasn't just imagining it!
posted by Sys Rq at 3:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Sys Rq at 3:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I lived in England for 7 years and I fucking hate roundabouts but then I am pedestrian and cyclist.
Pedestrian / cyclist accidents are probably down because of roundabout avoidance. Put them everywhere and you lose that.
posted by srboisvert at 3:41 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Pedestrian / cyclist accidents are probably down because of roundabout avoidance. Put them everywhere and you lose that.
posted by srboisvert at 3:41 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Roundabouts only work for some specific traffic patterns. For example, if one direction is very busy and the other is not (e.g. N/S busier than E/W), a roundabout is unsuitable, because the constant stream of traffic in the busy direction means that people coming the in the less busy direction will never get right of way.
In the UK they are often designed with a spiralling lane system. The lanes are signposted on the approach, and you have to get in the correct lane for the exit you want, then just stay in that lane around the roundabout and it will spit you out into the exit you wanted. As a bonus, if you're a visitor from a strange roundabout-free country, this system means you can't get confused about which way to go round the roundabout. Just stay in your lane!
For really small roundabouts, they are usually just the exact same junction layout as it was pre-roundabout, but with a small lumpy circle painted in white paint in the middle. If there's nobody else around you just drive straight over it.
posted by emilyw at 3:43 PM on September 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
In the UK they are often designed with a spiralling lane system. The lanes are signposted on the approach, and you have to get in the correct lane for the exit you want, then just stay in that lane around the roundabout and it will spit you out into the exit you wanted. As a bonus, if you're a visitor from a strange roundabout-free country, this system means you can't get confused about which way to go round the roundabout. Just stay in your lane!
For really small roundabouts, they are usually just the exact same junction layout as it was pre-roundabout, but with a small lumpy circle painted in white paint in the middle. If there's nobody else around you just drive straight over it.
posted by emilyw at 3:43 PM on September 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Am I the only one who hates rotaries as a pedestrian? They take forever to traverse, and forget about a car ever stopping for you. Sure, circumnavigating a rotary is better than darting across some horrible exurban 8-lane stroad, but placed in actual urban areas they just feel like an unnecessary obstacle.
posted by threeants at 3:44 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by threeants at 3:44 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
For really small roundabouts, they are usually just the exact same junction layout as it was pre-roundabout, but with a small lumpy circle painted in white paint in the middle. If there's nobody else around you just drive straight over it.
I loved those little fuckers! Microbouts, I called 'em.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:53 PM on September 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I loved those little fuckers! Microbouts, I called 'em.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:53 PM on September 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I grew up about eight houses up from this one. I have no problems navigating roundabouts.
posted by antipodes at 4:06 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by antipodes at 4:06 PM on September 18, 2015
Single lane roundabouts...OK. Multi-lane? Fuck no, I was in a chain of them a couple of weeks ago with jut two lanes and I had no idea which lane I needed to be in. Good thing traffic was light because I was all over those fucking lanes trying to make sure I hit the exit to the freeway. That shit's just un-American.
posted by MikeMc at 4:19 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by MikeMc at 4:19 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Folks here and elsewhere seem to be using the terms rotary and roundabout interchangeably
There's no real system.
But if they have a dog, it's probably a rondell.
posted by effbot at 4:22 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's no real system.
But if they have a dog, it's probably a rondell.
posted by effbot at 4:22 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd be supportive of more roundabouts that are only fed by one-way streets.
posted by indubitable at 4:31 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by indubitable at 4:31 PM on September 18, 2015
This video recently did the rounds; Tour of Britain cycle race loses its way. And yes, that's a roundabout. They could have just gone round it rather than reversing and fucking everything up.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I generally like them, but the small one near my mom's house (Powderhorn neighborhood in Minneapolis) is difficult to plow and kind of a mess in the winter.
posted by Area Man at 4:38 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by Area Man at 4:38 PM on September 18, 2015
Basically, if I was the police, everyone involved in that would be in jail.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:40 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:40 PM on September 18, 2015
Roundabouts are great….unless all the 'yeild' signs are stop signs. It completely breaks their functionality.
My morning commute takes me (by bus or bike) right through Ladd's Addition….and jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick, that center circle has nothing but stop signs. Once or twice a quarter, cops will sit in that circle and nail everyone who rolls through those stop signs, bike and car alike. Nothing bothers me more than that intersection, because it takes a good design and breaks it so hard.
posted by furnace.heart at 4:41 PM on September 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
My morning commute takes me (by bus or bike) right through Ladd's Addition….and jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick, that center circle has nothing but stop signs. Once or twice a quarter, cops will sit in that circle and nail everyone who rolls through those stop signs, bike and car alike. Nothing bothers me more than that intersection, because it takes a good design and breaks it so hard.
posted by furnace.heart at 4:41 PM on September 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
The roads around here are so narrow that I don't see how there'd be room for roundabouts. Wouldn't you have to buy the land from the four properties at each corner to be able to circle the square to fit one where an intersection used to be?
posted by octothorpe at 4:45 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 4:45 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised at the consensus that roundabouts are terrible for cyclists. I've cycled across roundabouts of various sizes -- from minis to large 2 or 3 lane -- at least hundreds of times, and they've never struck me as unusually dangerous. The only genuinely hairy moment I've had on one was when a car didn't see me and started to pull onto the roundabout in front of me as I was traveling at speed, but I've had the same happen to me when I was driving a car, and cycling past ordinary junctions.
As with most junctions, just claim your lane -- i.e. ride in the centre of your chosen lane like a car, rather than creating an extra imaginary cycle lane at the side where drivers can't see you as easily and might be tempted to overtake you at a dangerous moment -- and go with the flow of traffic. Easy. Or maybe I've just been bizarrely lucky over the years, squandering all my good fortune on traffic flow instead of lottery tickets.
I'm with you on the "bad for pedestrians" angle though. Drivers coming off a full sized roundabout don't tend to plan ahead sufficiently to handle adjacent zebra crossings etc gracefully. Whatever's after the exit, even if it's in plain view, generally seems to be beyond some conceptual event horizon. It can definitely work -- I cross a busy roundabout using its zebra crossings pretty regularly -- but it does seem to make the whole junction flow less smoothly than it could.
posted by metaBugs at 4:51 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
As with most junctions, just claim your lane -- i.e. ride in the centre of your chosen lane like a car, rather than creating an extra imaginary cycle lane at the side where drivers can't see you as easily and might be tempted to overtake you at a dangerous moment -- and go with the flow of traffic. Easy. Or maybe I've just been bizarrely lucky over the years, squandering all my good fortune on traffic flow instead of lottery tickets.
I'm with you on the "bad for pedestrians" angle though. Drivers coming off a full sized roundabout don't tend to plan ahead sufficiently to handle adjacent zebra crossings etc gracefully. Whatever's after the exit, even if it's in plain view, generally seems to be beyond some conceptual event horizon. It can definitely work -- I cross a busy roundabout using its zebra crossings pretty regularly -- but it does seem to make the whole junction flow less smoothly than it could.
posted by metaBugs at 4:51 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Speaking of awful first experiences with roundabouts, in college I rented a car and toured Cyprus and cameacross this beast . When I was there, it had traffic lights regulating the roads that entered the rotary and only let 8 cars enter at a time. Traffic backed up like crazy.
Funnily enough, since that time I was a roundabout skeptic.
Then this year I bought Cities Skylines and got actively involved in the CS sub-reddit, which actually freaking loves intersection talk and actually includes a number of real life traffic engineers. Soon I found myself perusing literature like this handy 2008 Michigan Intersection Guide. Long story short, t-intersections handle traffic just fine without roundabouts, but roundabouts universally out-perform stop signs in terms of vehicle-per-hour capacity. Roundabouts are actually pretty evenly matched with lights in 2 and 4 lane roads in terms of capacity UNTIL you add in dedicated turn lanes.
posted by midmarch snowman at 4:59 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Funnily enough, since that time I was a roundabout skeptic.
Then this year I bought Cities Skylines and got actively involved in the CS sub-reddit, which actually freaking loves intersection talk and actually includes a number of real life traffic engineers. Soon I found myself perusing literature like this handy 2008 Michigan Intersection Guide. Long story short, t-intersections handle traffic just fine without roundabouts, but roundabouts universally out-perform stop signs in terms of vehicle-per-hour capacity. Roundabouts are actually pretty evenly matched with lights in 2 and 4 lane roads in terms of capacity UNTIL you add in dedicated turn lanes.
posted by midmarch snowman at 4:59 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
The problem with roundabouts, particularly multi-lane ones, is that you have to know how to use them. This in turn means that you have to have some driving skills in order to get a license. This would mean some people who have licenses now would not be able to get them. Which means there would be fewer cars sold and more demand for public transportation. Which is Unamerican.
Hence the driving test which consists of showing you can make it around a quiet block at 10mph alive, and no roundabouts you f&%*ing commies.
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:06 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Hence the driving test which consists of showing you can make it around a quiet block at 10mph alive, and no roundabouts you f&%*ing commies.
posted by George_Spiggott at 5:06 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
...and you find yourself making a full stop at a 4-way intersection with nobody else around for miles... then it all makes sense.
That, my friend, is why the California Stop was invented.
posted by madajb at 5:10 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
That, my friend, is why the California Stop was invented.
posted by madajb at 5:10 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've been driving for thirty five years and I'll admit that the two or three of times that I've had to drive through one (in Massachusetts), I kind of freaked out.
posted by octothorpe at 5:12 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 5:12 PM on September 18, 2015
Central NJ has terrible ideas about traffic circles where the people inside the circle yield to the people coming in. Also they're two lanes thick.
posted by Ferreous at 5:12 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 5:12 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
furnace.heart: Yes! I always get lost in Ladd's, biking or driving, and my wife got nailed at one of those bike traps. It's lovely on a map but in reality it's a nightmare.
posted by gottabefunky at 5:14 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by gottabefunky at 5:14 PM on September 18, 2015
Ferrous, NJ is a great argument against roundabouts, at least ones that don't have consistent yields for entering versus circling traffic. It's generally high traffic roads intersecting with low traffic roads that have weird internal yields, so on some level it's understandable, but it really messes with the flow of traffic. If all roundabouts had the same rules, it would be much more reasonable. I suppose what's necessary is removing roundabouts on roads that shouldn't have them and installing them on roads that should.
posted by mollweide at 5:21 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mollweide at 5:21 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
We have a double roundabout down the street from us!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:22 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:22 PM on September 18, 2015
(there is not to my knowledge actually a redbox in the middle of the intersection)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:22 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:22 PM on September 18, 2015
chavenet: "Four-way intersections are much more efficient."
The article points to several studies that show the opposite.
posted by Mitheral at 5:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The article points to several studies that show the opposite.
posted by Mitheral at 5:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I loved those little fuckers! Microbouts, I called 'em.
In Australia they're known as Overbouts.
posted by um at 5:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
In Australia they're known as Overbouts.
posted by um at 5:25 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ferreous: "Central NJ has terrible ideas about traffic circles where the people inside the circle yield to the people coming in. Also they're two lanes thick."
The article addressed these agree they were a terrible idea. Places that have embraced the roundabout have tore all that style out. If that is the style everyone is railing against then ya, they suck.
posted by Mitheral at 5:27 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The article addressed these agree they were a terrible idea. Places that have embraced the roundabout have tore all that style out. If that is the style everyone is railing against then ya, they suck.
posted by Mitheral at 5:27 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
As it happens, I live in an apartment building at an intersection that was one of the first in my city to get a roundabout, a single lane. I live on the ground floor, with a window facing the intersection, and I thought it was just a matter of time before I'd hear a screech and a crash. Hasn't happened (at least while I've been around), and the only mistake I've seen someone make was early after it opened, when one old guy went the wrong direction, and seemed to realize his mistake about halfway through; luckily, there wasn't anyone else in it at the time. And I take my bike through it all the time, no prob. (Keep in mind, of course, that this is not a major intersection.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:28 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:28 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think I first saw overbouts in Juiz de Fora. Roundabouts of all varieties are common in Brazil.
posted by wintermind at 5:33 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by wintermind at 5:33 PM on September 18, 2015
phooky: “Instead we get the usual "why don't Americans like roundabouts? Perhaps it is because they are... bad people?"”Honestly, I think it's just money. Around here there's barely enough money to get necessary maintenance done. Spending money to upgrade intersections to roundabouts is a fantasy.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Although they did put two in when they built a new road in a nearby town. They're the only ones I can think of in the county.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:41 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 5:41 PM on September 18, 2015
Here in Massachusetts, where we drive in circles more than anybody else, there's a difference between a rotary and a roundabout.
A rotary is a big-ass circle, initially installed in, oh, the 1930s, that our wise forefathers knew were far more efficient at handling large-ish volumes of traffic than traffic signals (also cheaper). Anybody who's old enough to remember when Rte. 2 terminated in a rotary at Alewife rather than the multi-lighted abomination the state replaced it with will tell you so. To fully enjoy them, take a ride down the Jamaicaway/Arborway/Centre Street/VFW Parkway (it's all the same road), which has roughly a gazillion of them (at least one of which also has pedestrian-crossing signals)
A roundabout is this cutesy little thing intended as a traffic-calming device (as if anybody could calm the Oxford-English-Dictionary-approved Masshole) in subdivisions and the like. A few years ago, the town of Dedham installed one of these on Needham Street, just down from a traffic "table" (think a speed bump that's like a car length wide).
posted by adamg at 5:42 PM on September 18, 2015
A rotary is a big-ass circle, initially installed in, oh, the 1930s, that our wise forefathers knew were far more efficient at handling large-ish volumes of traffic than traffic signals (also cheaper). Anybody who's old enough to remember when Rte. 2 terminated in a rotary at Alewife rather than the multi-lighted abomination the state replaced it with will tell you so. To fully enjoy them, take a ride down the Jamaicaway/Arborway/Centre Street/VFW Parkway (it's all the same road), which has roughly a gazillion of them (at least one of which also has pedestrian-crossing signals)
A roundabout is this cutesy little thing intended as a traffic-calming device (as if anybody could calm the Oxford-English-Dictionary-approved Masshole) in subdivisions and the like. A few years ago, the town of Dedham installed one of these on Needham Street, just down from a traffic "table" (think a speed bump that's like a car length wide).
posted by adamg at 5:42 PM on September 18, 2015
I was wrong about that. They're spreading all over the county according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Unsurprisingly, opinion is mixed.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:49 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 5:49 PM on September 18, 2015
Then again NJ does jughandles, which actually are great for traffic flow on major roads. They're just utterly perplexing to anyone not from the state.
posted by Ferreous at 5:49 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 5:49 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Personally, I find roundabouts terrifying. I approach them as a motorist with a silent OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD in my head.
posted by delight at 5:54 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by delight at 5:54 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
For whatever it's worth, the Magic Roundabout discussed above is in Swindon, home of post-punk band XTC, who in 1982 recorded a song about getting stuck in it. (here's the lyrics).
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:56 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:56 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Thank you, You Can't Tip a Buick! I saw the Yes reference upthread, but didn't get a chance to link to the XTC song.
posted by mollweide at 6:05 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by mollweide at 6:05 PM on September 18, 2015
I go through one twice a day here in the Dallas 'burbs. Consider me a fan. Seems much more efficient than either the stop signs or the traffic lights on the same road.
posted by chisel at 6:31 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by chisel at 6:31 PM on September 18, 2015
One minute covers my opinion of roundabouts. Look kids!
On a brighter note, one of the proposals of the UK's Monster Raving Loony Party was that laws should allow drivers, should no one else be at a roundabout, to go over the middle to save time.
posted by delfin at 6:31 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
On a brighter note, one of the proposals of the UK's Monster Raving Loony Party was that laws should allow drivers, should no one else be at a roundabout, to go over the middle to save time.
posted by delfin at 6:31 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I grew up in Philly, and hated driving in New Jersey where traffic circles were pretty popular. I don't remember the yield/stop sign placements or merging patterns, but they seemed really confusing because I'd simply never encountered them. Had I dealt with them as a normal part of learning to drive, I'm sure my opinion would have been different.
I actually made this post because, while I expected them to be better than traffic signals on many metrics, I really didn't expect them to be pretty much better on every axis except maybe space utilization. The article didn't really cover space considerations, but based on the fact that turn lanes are needed for "normal" intersections, I can't imagine it's that much more for most intersections.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I actually made this post because, while I expected them to be better than traffic signals on many metrics, I really didn't expect them to be pretty much better on every axis except maybe space utilization. The article didn't really cover space considerations, but based on the fact that turn lanes are needed for "normal" intersections, I can't imagine it's that much more for most intersections.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:35 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Normal one lane roundabouts on lightly to moderately trafficked roads are fine, in fact I would say generally preferable to four way stops as long as I'm not a pedestrian. Especially if I'm already familiar with the area and I know where I'm going.
But when I'm driving in unfamiliar areas I hate traffic circles. Especially the multi lane ones or any that aren't standard. There's this one traffic circle abomination somewhere in southern nh off of 95 and I have multiple times hopped off the highway in the dark just trying to get a cup of coffee and ended up caught unawares in this traffic circle hell that is under construction and has no street lights around it and is poorly signed and is freaking terrifying.
posted by geegollygosh at 6:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
But when I'm driving in unfamiliar areas I hate traffic circles. Especially the multi lane ones or any that aren't standard. There's this one traffic circle abomination somewhere in southern nh off of 95 and I have multiple times hopped off the highway in the dark just trying to get a cup of coffee and ended up caught unawares in this traffic circle hell that is under construction and has no street lights around it and is poorly signed and is freaking terrifying.
posted by geegollygosh at 6:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't mind the principle of roundabouts at all, but it seems American civil engineers want to "improve" the concept with special feeder lanes and weird immediate right hand turn lanes. It makes each one unique and, as result makes them all generally confusing, roundy minefields.
On preview, like ggg said.
posted by klarck at 6:45 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
On preview, like ggg said.
posted by klarck at 6:45 PM on September 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
Guys, first sentence of The Fine Article:
In the 1980s cult classic, National Lampoon's European Vacation
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by tonycpsu at 6:45 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
In the 1980s cult classic, National Lampoon's European Vacation
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by tonycpsu at 6:45 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I, too, love roundabouts--there are some here and there in Seattle neighborhoods--but it's not one size fits all. In some intersections roundabouts would be good, others...not so much. Namely dense metro areas with high traffic and more valuable space. Roundabouts do take up more space.
posted by zardoz at 6:46 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zardoz at 6:46 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
To expand on my earlier comment about disliking them in unfamiliar situations, imo the statement 'now that I've gotten used to the roundabout by my house it makes sense and I've come to like it!' isn't a sign of good traffic engineering.
posted by geegollygosh at 6:50 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by geegollygosh at 6:50 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
We have one roundabout in our town. It replaced a huge tangled intersection that had caused accidents and traffic jams for 50 years. It not only rules, but is adorable. Whenever I go through it with my sister, we sing, "We're goin' through the roundabout," to the tune of "Here We Go 'Round the Mulberry Bush."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:15 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:15 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is one of (or maybe the only) roundabouts about that I know of around these parts. As usually for us, the signage is confusing, incomplete and inconsistent ; three of the entrances have yield signs, one has no sign and one has a stop sign.
posted by octothorpe at 7:23 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 7:23 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I like roundabouts, but only if they don't get too clever with the spiral lane markers and the four-headed arrow signage and shit. It's a circle, you drive around, you get out when you want. Simple. As klarck says, American traffic engineers seem to be doing their best to keep it confusing and different every time, though.
posted by ctmf at 7:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 7:36 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The problem with traffic circles in New Jersey is that they're inconsistent. When I got my license in 2001, the written rule of the road was that right of way at a circle was, and I quote, "according to local custom". They finally started adding yield signs to let unfamiliar drivers know who had the right of way, but for a long time most circles were completely unmarked and you were just expected to know who gets to go.
posted by backseatpilot at 7:45 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by backseatpilot at 7:45 PM on September 18, 2015
Yeah, they were a shitshow for many years. South/Central NJ much more so because no one gives 2/3s of a fuck what happens down there.
posted by Ferreous at 7:49 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by Ferreous at 7:49 PM on September 18, 2015
Roundabouts are great for cars, but they are incredibly dangerous for bikes and pedestrians. A four way stop slows cars and is safest for bikes and pedestrians. So we should abandon roundabouts and go back to four way stops.
My local city council has decided to do a "cycling audit" recently, to see what it can do to improve the bicycling infrastructure. As well as the usual comments about paths and lanes, some of the biggest complaints are about the epidemic of rolling stops cyclists do, particularly on back streets.
Now, 20 or 30 years ago, the city decided that yield-and-go intersections were too dangerous and that uncontrolled intersections were double dangerous. So just about every junction in every residential neighbourhood is a 4-way stop. On a single route in or out of a suburb, one might stop ten or twelve times in a half kilometer, every block. So, of course, everyone, car and cycle rolls through stop signs, California and Idaho stops, respectively.
There have been a number of pedestrian and cyclist deaths.
So yeah, roundabouts. That's got everyone talking.
posted by bonehead at 7:49 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
My local city council has decided to do a "cycling audit" recently, to see what it can do to improve the bicycling infrastructure. As well as the usual comments about paths and lanes, some of the biggest complaints are about the epidemic of rolling stops cyclists do, particularly on back streets.
Now, 20 or 30 years ago, the city decided that yield-and-go intersections were too dangerous and that uncontrolled intersections were double dangerous. So just about every junction in every residential neighbourhood is a 4-way stop. On a single route in or out of a suburb, one might stop ten or twelve times in a half kilometer, every block. So, of course, everyone, car and cycle rolls through stop signs, California and Idaho stops, respectively.
There have been a number of pedestrian and cyclist deaths.
So yeah, roundabouts. That's got everyone talking.
posted by bonehead at 7:49 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd love to be a driving test administrator in Swindon. "Hmmm... I know! Why don't we do the roundabout again!"
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:58 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:58 PM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
European here. The state I live in is downright obsessed with roundabouts. A nearby town of 15.000 people prides itself with 30 roundabouts.
And it's not that bad - after a while you're getting used to constantly driving in circles, no matter where you're going. ;)
posted by bigendian at 8:11 PM on September 18, 2015
And it's not that bad - after a while you're getting used to constantly driving in circles, no matter where you're going. ;)
posted by bigendian at 8:11 PM on September 18, 2015
South/Central NJ much more so because no one gives 2/3s of a fuck what happens down there.
Traffic circles are where the diners are.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:24 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Traffic circles are where the diners are.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:24 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
My significant other loathes roundabouts (myself, I am mildly positive toward them). I know she loathes them because every time we pass through one she mutters through clenched teeth, "I hate these things." The most place this happens is the single one we pass though on our way to her family cottage.
A couple of years ago a bunch of us were going up to the cottage for a long weekend. Due to work schedules, the SO and I went up a day apart. I drove up with another guest, but in my half-dozen or so previous trips to the cottage I had not fully memorized the particular sequence of back roads that got us there. Hazarding a guess as to the proper road to exit the highway at, my companion and I found ourselves driving through a stretch of countryside I did not recognize at all. I was beginning to think we had made a terrible wrong turn and I was preparing to suggest we reverse course and head back to the highway when the road reached a roundabout. In my head I heard, "I hate these things," and knew at once I had chosen the correct route.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:38 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
A couple of years ago a bunch of us were going up to the cottage for a long weekend. Due to work schedules, the SO and I went up a day apart. I drove up with another guest, but in my half-dozen or so previous trips to the cottage I had not fully memorized the particular sequence of back roads that got us there. Hazarding a guess as to the proper road to exit the highway at, my companion and I found ourselves driving through a stretch of countryside I did not recognize at all. I was beginning to think we had made a terrible wrong turn and I was preparing to suggest we reverse course and head back to the highway when the road reached a roundabout. In my head I heard, "I hate these things," and knew at once I had chosen the correct route.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:38 PM on September 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Maybe we'll get our roundabout revolution after the whole self-driving car thing takes off.--buriednexttoyou
Except when you have connected self-driving cars, you won't need roundabouts because cars can drive toward a 4 way intersection at 60 mph and automatically interleave themselves through the cross-traffic.
The problem is all the passengers will be screaming and covering their eyes every time they approach an intersection.
posted by eye of newt at 8:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
Except when you have connected self-driving cars, you won't need roundabouts because cars can drive toward a 4 way intersection at 60 mph and automatically interleave themselves through the cross-traffic.
The problem is all the passengers will be screaming and covering their eyes every time they approach an intersection.
posted by eye of newt at 8:40 PM on September 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
That was just what it was like on the "Fresh Pond rotary" just outside Boston. It's been changed to an abysmal set of lights but one feed is a freeway coming off a steep hill into two residential/shopping arterials. So the changes of acceleration and high speed weaving was just exhilarating. (No "exhilarating" is not quite the right adjective :-)
posted by sammyo at 9:02 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by sammyo at 9:02 PM on September 18, 2015
Well, to be honest, the problem with roundabouts in eastern Mass is that folks treat the yield sign as a suggestion.
posted by transient at 9:59 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by transient at 9:59 PM on September 18, 2015
I don't have a problem with roundabouts, even the 2-3 lane one I have to navigate on occasion. It's far better than the alternative for everyone, including pedestrians.
posted by wierdo at 10:01 PM on September 18, 2015
posted by wierdo at 10:01 PM on September 18, 2015
A few years ago they converted the 4-way stop a couple blocks from my place into a roundabout. I won't say "it works great once I got used to it" because there was no need—it's worked great from day one. It helps that, being on the edge of a college campus, the pattern of which are the busy streets changes drastically depending on schedules, football games, or whatever. I understand that's a strength of roundabouts.
I'm confused since for me it's been a huge win from a pedestrian perspective: with the old 4-way intersection I'd have to watch for cars that might be coming from 5 different directions. And the ones turning were the worst at not looking where they were going (the one time I've been hit by a car as a pedestrian was where they were turning right and looking left, the way too many drivers do). But crossing it now I only have to watch two directions, and there's a little island between them. And the drivers are looking where they're going more.
The bicycle experience is more mixed, by which I mean not at all mixed and strictly segregated: there's a little ramp and lane markings that show we have a choice to either merge with regular traffic or switch to the sidewalk prior to the roundabout. Merging with traffic is smooth like butter, the roundabout brings cars down to bicycle speed anyway and everything works great. Using the sidewalk… is just as horrible as that usually is for bicycles.
So I think it comes down to a lot of the key factors people have brought up here: is it a true roundabout or a traffic circle, does it have yields in the proper places, does it have the proper radius for the speeds and volumes of its streets, does it treat everything that's not a car as first-class design users, and so on and so forth.
Oh, and if driver's ed could start teaching people to signal when leaving the roundabout that would be great.
posted by traveler_ at 10:01 PM on September 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm confused since for me it's been a huge win from a pedestrian perspective: with the old 4-way intersection I'd have to watch for cars that might be coming from 5 different directions. And the ones turning were the worst at not looking where they were going (the one time I've been hit by a car as a pedestrian was where they were turning right and looking left, the way too many drivers do). But crossing it now I only have to watch two directions, and there's a little island between them. And the drivers are looking where they're going more.
The bicycle experience is more mixed, by which I mean not at all mixed and strictly segregated: there's a little ramp and lane markings that show we have a choice to either merge with regular traffic or switch to the sidewalk prior to the roundabout. Merging with traffic is smooth like butter, the roundabout brings cars down to bicycle speed anyway and everything works great. Using the sidewalk… is just as horrible as that usually is for bicycles.
So I think it comes down to a lot of the key factors people have brought up here: is it a true roundabout or a traffic circle, does it have yields in the proper places, does it have the proper radius for the speeds and volumes of its streets, does it treat everything that's not a car as first-class design users, and so on and so forth.
Oh, and if driver's ed could start teaching people to signal when leaving the roundabout that would be great.
posted by traveler_ at 10:01 PM on September 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
Roundabouts are great in circumstances, but they're terrible for pedestrians -- and particularly disabled folks or slow-moving people like the elderly. I was waiting at a roundabout in Sydney (Waterloo) yesterday morning where the cars would not stop coming; I couldn't even make it to the refuge island. I finally had to just dash into traffic and hope they slowed down slightly, which they did. Two other folks followed my lead, but the older woman waiting beside us was still there after I'd crossed and walked on a ways. They're far from a panacea.
posted by barnacles at 10:16 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by barnacles at 10:16 PM on September 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
You know, I've never been a huge fan of roundabouts - in myy head I lump them in with other over engineered types of traffic calming here in the U.s. - but moving to a metro area with a culture of drivers who blithely accelerate into turned red-1.5 seconds-ago stoplights has me thinking a bit differently. The few roundabouts here in Denver do feel much safer. Or at least less likely spots for me to get horribly t-boned. I wouldn't be sad to see moe of them.
posted by deludingmyself at 10:31 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by deludingmyself at 10:31 PM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I didn't mind roundabouts that much until the first time I drove in the US and had to go around one the 'wrong' way. It's against all instinct.
Four way stops confuse me though. Intersections in Oz almost always have stop or yield signs on the less busy road, and nothing on the busy one. Makes it much clearer who has right of way.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 10:36 PM on September 18, 2015
Four way stops confuse me though. Intersections in Oz almost always have stop or yield signs on the less busy road, and nothing on the busy one. Makes it much clearer who has right of way.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 10:36 PM on September 18, 2015
Roundabouts are great in circumstances, but they're terrible for pedestrians -- and particularly disabled folks or slow-moving people like the elderly. I was waiting at a roundabout in Sydney (Waterloo) yesterday morning where the cars would not stop coming; I couldn't even make it to the refuge island. I finally had to just dash into traffic and hope they slowed down slightly, which they did. Two other folks followed my lead, but the older woman waiting beside us was still there after I'd crossed and walked on a ways. They're far from a panacea.
Isn't that just a terribly designed roundabout? There should be a set of lights for pedestrians where you push a button and it stops the traffic temporarily for you.
posted by walrus at 12:42 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Isn't that just a terribly designed roundabout? There should be a set of lights for pedestrians where you push a button and it stops the traffic temporarily for you.
posted by walrus at 12:42 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Roundabouts? Do you mean semi truck aerial launching platforms?
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 1:27 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 1:27 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The diagram of the difference between a rotary and a roundabout looks terrifying. I can only deal with roundabout rules. Having to yield both ways as on the rotary diagram is a cognitive load I really just don't need.
posted by lokta at 3:16 AM on September 19, 2015
posted by lokta at 3:16 AM on September 19, 2015
There are several of these near me. Some of them are totally brilliant, in particular the ones replacing 4+ way stops on fairly remote roads. I don't think they're really appropriate in areas with much pedestrian traffic, certainly, but if we're honest, a lot of the US isn't that. The one that's a problem and that I try to avoid whenever I can is Tallmadge Circle. It's not because it's complicated; it's the opposite of complicated. It's been there forever. The problem, I've realized, is a general rule of how people around here drive. They want to go as fast as they possibly can, and they're incredibly lazy about turn signals. Those two things combine into a complete nightmare. You get stuck behind a person who's a little bit nervous about the intersection, you get cars flying by so that there's very little room to get out, and you can't tell when you're safe because you can't see when people are getting off at your exit.
Tallmadge Circle, I'm guessing most larger versions, they require a social contract, basically. They require everybody to acknowledge that we're all just trying to get where we're going and we're going to do our best to not just get ourselves where we're going, but also to get everybody else there as efficiently as possible. We're sometimes going to let people go in front of us. It's the same thing that makes me nervous in heavy traffic in Cleveland... it's not that everybody's terrible, but all it takes is a couple people who don't want to let you merge in and you're screwed. There's a place on 77 where I saw the southbound traffic slow to a crawl the other day because a dozen people ignored the 'lane ends, merge left' signs for about a mile to try to fly past everybody else who was going just a little slower than usual, and then suddenly we were all going 5mph to let them back in. A lot of traffic patterns that are fine if people are only very rarely jerks turn into annoying-at-best-if-not-actually-dangerous if just a few people at any given time think they're more important than everybody else, and this is one of them.
posted by Sequence at 5:39 AM on September 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Tallmadge Circle, I'm guessing most larger versions, they require a social contract, basically. They require everybody to acknowledge that we're all just trying to get where we're going and we're going to do our best to not just get ourselves where we're going, but also to get everybody else there as efficiently as possible. We're sometimes going to let people go in front of us. It's the same thing that makes me nervous in heavy traffic in Cleveland... it's not that everybody's terrible, but all it takes is a couple people who don't want to let you merge in and you're screwed. There's a place on 77 where I saw the southbound traffic slow to a crawl the other day because a dozen people ignored the 'lane ends, merge left' signs for about a mile to try to fly past everybody else who was going just a little slower than usual, and then suddenly we were all going 5mph to let them back in. A lot of traffic patterns that are fine if people are only very rarely jerks turn into annoying-at-best-if-not-actually-dangerous if just a few people at any given time think they're more important than everybody else, and this is one of them.
posted by Sequence at 5:39 AM on September 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I cannot believe the Magic Roundabout only got 4th place.
posted by MtDewd at 6:16 AM on September 19, 2015
posted by MtDewd at 6:16 AM on September 19, 2015
I love me some roundabounds, but alas, people are idiots.
posted by blue_beetle at 6:19 AM on September 19, 2015
posted by blue_beetle at 6:19 AM on September 19, 2015
There are some roundabouts in Berkeley, CA. These have inconsistent and confusing signage and are missing the essential element you find at every French roundabout: the triangular sign that says "vous n'avez pas la priorité" - yield at the entry to the roundabout. Therefore some people drive into one as though -they- have priority. Some of the Berkeley roundabouts have STOP signs at the entry. Some do not.
If the Berkeley city fathers ever manage to figure this out they might be able to get them to work but for now people approach them oddly.
Roundabouts work wonderfully well when everyone operates by the same set of rules. Informing people what the rules are might help with that.
posted by jet_silver at 6:41 AM on September 19, 2015
If the Berkeley city fathers ever manage to figure this out they might be able to get them to work but for now people approach them oddly.
Roundabouts work wonderfully well when everyone operates by the same set of rules. Informing people what the rules are might help with that.
posted by jet_silver at 6:41 AM on September 19, 2015
I'm confused- wouldn't it be easier simply to walk around the roundabout, crossing the exits when they're briefly not in use, rather than trying to walk across to the island and then from the island to the other side?
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:48 AM on September 19, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:48 AM on September 19, 2015
This is the kind of roundabout that would replace the majority of 4-way stops. It's fine for cyclists and pedestrians. Bigger multi-lane roundabouts usually have traffic light controlled pedestrian crossings.
I do cycle a lot, and I don't find big roundabouts any worse than any other major multi-lane road junction. The danger is mostly from drivers in your own lane driving over the top of you, rather than people t-boning you on the roundabout itself.
posted by tinkletown at 7:30 AM on September 19, 2015
I do cycle a lot, and I don't find big roundabouts any worse than any other major multi-lane road junction. The danger is mostly from drivers in your own lane driving over the top of you, rather than people t-boning you on the roundabout itself.
posted by tinkletown at 7:30 AM on September 19, 2015
Being Dutch I have to promote the best roundabout design for cyclists.
posted by mirthe at 7:43 AM on September 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by mirthe at 7:43 AM on September 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Pope G, say there are four roads attached to the roundabout, with an exit and entry for each of those 4 roads, between each exit and entry will be a little traffic island so a pedestrian only has to cope with traffic from one direction at a time. I don't think anyone is talking about crossing to the central island. barnacles has encountered a road so busy that at least one exit or entry point from the roundabout is too busy to cross.
posted by biffa at 8:01 AM on September 19, 2015
posted by biffa at 8:01 AM on September 19, 2015
> No no no. I live in a country that is awash with roundabouts. They are fine for lightly trafficked areas but a jam factory anytime the flow rises.
The first time I visited Paris, 22 years ago, my tour bus got stuck in an epic traffic jam - the worst I've experienced anywhere - while in the middle of a roundabout. Hell, it's possible that I might still be on that bus and everything I've registered as "reality" since then has just been a mental defensive coping mechanism to deal with the tedium and frustration.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:13 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The first time I visited Paris, 22 years ago, my tour bus got stuck in an epic traffic jam - the worst I've experienced anywhere - while in the middle of a roundabout. Hell, it's possible that I might still be on that bus and everything I've registered as "reality" since then has just been a mental defensive coping mechanism to deal with the tedium and frustration.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:13 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Being Dutch I have to promote the best roundabout design for cyclists.
I am going to quibble, I used to live in Milton Keynes, the greatest of all roundabout enamoured towns*. The town is made up of horizontal and vertical roads which cut the town into rough squares about 1km on a side. There is a major roundabout at the junction where these cross. Alongside the main roads are 'redways' (they use red tarmac) for use by cyclists and pedestrians (and wide enough to be largely conflict free). At the junctions the redways go either under or over the road roundabout, so there is never any need for the cyclists to interact with motor vehicles.
*To back this up, I have highlighted the area I used to live in: Fishermead. it is about 1km on a side, and you can see there are 5 major roundabouts along its perimeter. It has another 25 or so roundabouts within that 1km square. Genuinely, people who drive in MK regularly are warned to check for wear and tear on their left side due to the greater distance travelled on that side.
posted by biffa at 8:14 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am going to quibble, I used to live in Milton Keynes, the greatest of all roundabout enamoured towns*. The town is made up of horizontal and vertical roads which cut the town into rough squares about 1km on a side. There is a major roundabout at the junction where these cross. Alongside the main roads are 'redways' (they use red tarmac) for use by cyclists and pedestrians (and wide enough to be largely conflict free). At the junctions the redways go either under or over the road roundabout, so there is never any need for the cyclists to interact with motor vehicles.
*To back this up, I have highlighted the area I used to live in: Fishermead. it is about 1km on a side, and you can see there are 5 major roundabouts along its perimeter. It has another 25 or so roundabouts within that 1km square. Genuinely, people who drive in MK regularly are warned to check for wear and tear on their left side due to the greater distance travelled on that side.
posted by biffa at 8:14 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the two biggest reasons roundabouts create congestion here are:
•The assholes who zoom into a 10mph residential roundabout at 25-30mph because "fuck you, sign says yield to traffic in circle; don't you dare try to enter in front of me because I'M IN THE CIRCLE AND I WAS HERE FIRST (and going 3x the rated speed)"
•Those who are too timid to enter the roundabout because "oh no, there's another car coming, even though it's on the opposite side of the circle, I better wait and see what he does... Okay he exited and I could have gone all along, but now there's another car that entered just to my right; I better wait and give him a chance to complete a full orbit before I decide what to do..."
posted by xedrik at 8:50 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
•The assholes who zoom into a 10mph residential roundabout at 25-30mph because "fuck you, sign says yield to traffic in circle; don't you dare try to enter in front of me because I'M IN THE CIRCLE AND I WAS HERE FIRST (and going 3x the rated speed)"
•Those who are too timid to enter the roundabout because "oh no, there's another car coming, even though it's on the opposite side of the circle, I better wait and see what he does... Okay he exited and I could have gone all along, but now there's another car that entered just to my right; I better wait and give him a chance to complete a full orbit before I decide what to do..."
posted by xedrik at 8:50 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this , but I live in an urban area with a fair number of late night speeders/the occasional police pursuit. Neighborhoods with higher instances of that now have small, single-lane roundabouts in residential areas, usually with a nice thick bush in the middle to keep people from plowing over the top. In addition to saving people from the often pointless stop, it slows down drivers who would otherwise blow through the neighborhood.
I grew up in a suburb bordering the Austin neighborhood of Chicago and there are only three busy streets that go into town from Austin. The rest are no outlet/cemented curbs. It would be nice if they could open up the intersection and plop a few roundabouts like that, because it has always struck me as a bit...unwelcoming? I always want to say racist, and I'm not sure I'm wrong. It would slow down traffic on the main drag on the border, which is probably the number 2 reason they don't do that.
posted by good lorneing at 8:52 AM on September 19, 2015
I grew up in a suburb bordering the Austin neighborhood of Chicago and there are only three busy streets that go into town from Austin. The rest are no outlet/cemented curbs. It would be nice if they could open up the intersection and plop a few roundabouts like that, because it has always struck me as a bit...unwelcoming? I always want to say racist, and I'm not sure I'm wrong. It would slow down traffic on the main drag on the border, which is probably the number 2 reason they don't do that.
posted by good lorneing at 8:52 AM on September 19, 2015
•Those who are too timid to enter the roundabout because "oh no, there's another car coming, even though it's on the opposite side of the circle, I better wait and see what he does... Okay he exited and I could have gone all along, but now there's another car that entered just to my right; I better wait and give him a chance to complete a full orbit before I decide what to do..."
These are the same people who go right up to the end of the merge lane in the expressway/freeway and stop and should be removed from the roads or at least banned from the freeway as they are outed.
posted by Talez at 9:16 AM on September 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
These are the same people who go right up to the end of the merge lane in the expressway/freeway and stop and should be removed from the roads or at least banned from the freeway as they are outed.
posted by Talez at 9:16 AM on September 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'd love to drive somewhere with merge lanes on the highway. Most of our ramps just drop you right into traffic, sometimes in the passing lane.
posted by octothorpe at 10:31 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 10:31 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
barnacles has encountered a road so busy that at least one exit or entry point from the roundabout is too busy to cross.
Well that's hardly specific to roundabouts- any intersection which isn't a light or a four-way stop puts you at risk of that scenario.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:45 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well that's hardly specific to roundabouts- any intersection which isn't a light or a four-way stop puts you at risk of that scenario.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:45 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
In the Netherlands almost any roundabout has zebra crossings on all side entrances/exits, so drivers must yield for pedestrians. The fines for not yielding for a pedestrian that is near (not on, getting near!) a zebra crossing are also pretty high (370 euros).
Personally, I feel much safer on a roundabout than on a regular crossing, whether I am by car, bike or walking.
posted by IAr at 10:54 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally, I feel much safer on a roundabout than on a regular crossing, whether I am by car, bike or walking.
posted by IAr at 10:54 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
jet_silver: The Berkeley roundabouts-with-stop-signs drive me nuts, especially as a cyclist. The "bicycle boulevards" have them nearly every block in places (California from Ashby to University, e.g.) and some of them have stop signs on all four approaches but others only on two. Unpredictable results, obviously.
To add to the thread of awful 1950s traffic circles, here's the one I grew up with.
It's wide/gentle enough to go through at a good 40 mph or so, and for double-trouble is of course two lanes. Note that US-9 (leaving the north side) is a 4-lane 50 mph highway; US-202 (on the west) is a 2-lane 30 mph road; and the multiplexed road carrying both of them out to the east immediately proceeds into a traffic light intersection about 1/8 mile later. Also the gas station and restaurant (!) with parking lots exiting directly onto the circle. What were they thinking?!
posted by spitefulcrow at 11:42 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
To add to the thread of awful 1950s traffic circles, here's the one I grew up with.
It's wide/gentle enough to go through at a good 40 mph or so, and for double-trouble is of course two lanes. Note that US-9 (leaving the north side) is a 4-lane 50 mph highway; US-202 (on the west) is a 2-lane 30 mph road; and the multiplexed road carrying both of them out to the east immediately proceeds into a traffic light intersection about 1/8 mile later. Also the gas station and restaurant (!) with parking lots exiting directly onto the circle. What were they thinking?!
posted by spitefulcrow at 11:42 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I grew up in Long Beach California. Learning to drive The Los Alamitos Circle was a rite of passage. Three major highways come together: Pacific Coast Highway, Lakewood Boulevard, and Los Coyotes Diagonal. ( Ximeno Avenue used to be part of it as well, but traffic on Ximeno was too fast so it was re-routed) Just to add to the fun LB Community Hospital is right off of The Circle up PCH (and I do mean "up" because that is a steep hill right there.)
The Circle was built in 1932 to handle the expected increase in traffic for the Summer Olympics. The local paper called it a death trap and it paralyzed drivers who didn't know what to do. It was and remains the only large rotary in the State.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:02 PM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Circle was built in 1932 to handle the expected increase in traffic for the Summer Olympics. The local paper called it a death trap and it paralyzed drivers who didn't know what to do. It was and remains the only large rotary in the State.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:02 PM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Then again NJ does jughandles, which actually are great for traffic flow on major roads. They're just utterly perplexing to anyone not from the state.
I found them clear and obvious except when they weren't well signed, or the street would switch between a jughandle and a normal turn at different intersections without warning so you never knew which lane to be in to turn left. But that's a signage issue, not that they are conceptually difficult.
posted by jeather at 4:03 PM on September 19, 2015
I found them clear and obvious except when they weren't well signed, or the street would switch between a jughandle and a normal turn at different intersections without warning so you never knew which lane to be in to turn left. But that's a signage issue, not that they are conceptually difficult.
posted by jeather at 4:03 PM on September 19, 2015
Holy cow I had no idea so many mefites grew up navigating the same NJ traffic circles I did! Hello, neighbors.
posted by Karmakaze at 4:05 PM on September 19, 2015
posted by Karmakaze at 4:05 PM on September 19, 2015
One of the, at first jarring, differences about driving on Swiss roads is that the use of your indicators (turn signals) is not compulsory except when exiting a roundabout. This is different to most other countries i've driven in where you should indicate your intent *before* you enter the roundabout - The critical one is that if you are going around the roundabout you should indicate.
I've come to prefer the Swiss approach, only indicate before you exit the roundabout and for no other reason, as my experience with the "conventional" approach is that most drivers are lazy and don't bother to indicate anyway - so the assumption, as the driver about to enter the roundabout, that "oh their turn signal isn't on so they must not be going around the roundabout" is often wrong and therefore dangerous.
The Swiss approach is to treat the roundabout as just a continuation of the road, so you should expect every car on it to be going around the roundabout until they indicate their intent to exit. It increases the safety of the roundabout as you cannot pre-empt the behaviour of traffic on or about to enter the roundabout.
I just need to remember to context switch when i return to the UK now and then.
Oh, of course the Swiss system still has problems - most drivers don't bother indicating before exit even though it's compulsory and there's a 100 CHF fine for failing to do so. Also the road planners are slightly insane in that it's not uncommon to encounter a roundabout that has a pedestrian crossing a couple of meters after an exit.
posted by lawrencium at 3:41 AM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've come to prefer the Swiss approach, only indicate before you exit the roundabout and for no other reason, as my experience with the "conventional" approach is that most drivers are lazy and don't bother to indicate anyway - so the assumption, as the driver about to enter the roundabout, that "oh their turn signal isn't on so they must not be going around the roundabout" is often wrong and therefore dangerous.
The Swiss approach is to treat the roundabout as just a continuation of the road, so you should expect every car on it to be going around the roundabout until they indicate their intent to exit. It increases the safety of the roundabout as you cannot pre-empt the behaviour of traffic on or about to enter the roundabout.
I just need to remember to context switch when i return to the UK now and then.
Oh, of course the Swiss system still has problems - most drivers don't bother indicating before exit even though it's compulsory and there's a 100 CHF fine for failing to do so. Also the road planners are slightly insane in that it's not uncommon to encounter a roundabout that has a pedestrian crossing a couple of meters after an exit.
posted by lawrencium at 3:41 AM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's how they work in Canada as well. Or maybe I should say that's how they are supposed to work in Canada as well.
posted by Mitheral at 8:59 AM on September 20, 2015
posted by Mitheral at 8:59 AM on September 20, 2015
I make 75% of my trips by bicycle or walking. I live in a university town in otherwise fiercely rural southwestern Virginia. We have four or five roundabouts. Count me in the "love them" crowd. Safer when I'm on a bike, safer when I'm on foot, safer when I'm in a car. The fact that they're faster (in nearly all cases) than the intersections they replaced is an added bonus.
The only downsides:
1. Drivers who come to the university and have never seen one / came from a state with a deficient drivers ed program. There's a week-long stretch in August where you have to expect any and all baffling behavior from drivers. It was almost as bad when there were four-way stops and traffic lights there, but UGH. My wife once witnessed someone drive the WRONG WAY around the roundabout. This is a feat considering the funnel angle of the entrances.
2. People who stop in roundabouts because their exit is blocked should be fired into the sun. I've ridden with folks who would never consider stopping in the middle of a signaled intersection but, for some inexplicable reason, think it is okay to stop in the circle and wait for their exit to clear. A pox on them!
posted by introp at 1:52 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
The only downsides:
1. Drivers who come to the university and have never seen one / came from a state with a deficient drivers ed program. There's a week-long stretch in August where you have to expect any and all baffling behavior from drivers. It was almost as bad when there were four-way stops and traffic lights there, but UGH. My wife once witnessed someone drive the WRONG WAY around the roundabout. This is a feat considering the funnel angle of the entrances.
2. People who stop in roundabouts because their exit is blocked should be fired into the sun. I've ridden with folks who would never consider stopping in the middle of a signaled intersection but, for some inexplicable reason, think it is okay to stop in the circle and wait for their exit to clear. A pox on them!
posted by introp at 1:52 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
think it is okay to stop in the circle and wait for their exit to clear
I never thought about it before. What are you supposed to do, drive around again? Take the wrong exit?
posted by ctmf at 3:29 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I never thought about it before. What are you supposed to do, drive around again? Take the wrong exit?
posted by ctmf at 3:29 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Go around. Take another exit. Anything but stopping in the intersection which completely jams it up for everyone. (Again: think of it just like stopping in a signaled intersection; doing that breaks the entire intersection and means you're going to get launched into the sun.)
Properly-designed roundabouts will have enough clear exit space that you can't back up traffic into them. Not all retrofit roundabouts have enough space to be properly-designed. Boo.
posted by introp at 4:12 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Properly-designed roundabouts will have enough clear exit space that you can't back up traffic into them. Not all retrofit roundabouts have enough space to be properly-designed. Boo.
posted by introp at 4:12 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
The roundabouts round about here are all one lane, so stopping if traffic is backed up is pretty mandatory. But now I'm interested in traffic laws for multilane roundabouts.
posted by jaguar at 4:47 PM on September 20, 2015
posted by jaguar at 4:47 PM on September 20, 2015
spitefulcrow: “To add to the thread of awful 1950s traffic circles, here's the one I grew up with.”Just to add to the hilarity with that questionable road design, if you start with street view on the bridge over the water then proceed through the circle as if you were driving, about the time you pass the gas station it turns from winter with dreary skies and snow on the ground to a brightly lit day at the height of summer.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:18 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've never yet seen a roundabout as viciously, absurdly, dangerously busy as the one where Victory Monument is in Bangkok. So many Bangkok interesections are on this extremely long timer (like two minutes per direction and yes, there's a countdown clock) so people really, really scramble to get through an intersection. A roundabout doesn't change that.
posted by librarylis at 8:38 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by librarylis at 8:38 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I like roundabouts. I drive through one every day to pick my son up from school.
The problem is that I am always seeing people who have no freaking clue how to use it.
posted by cuscutis at 7:31 AM on September 21, 2015
The problem is that I am always seeing people who have no freaking clue how to use it.
posted by cuscutis at 7:31 AM on September 21, 2015
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posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:19 PM on September 18, 2015 [15 favorites]