"You and I are in fact unequal."
October 7, 2015 3:57 PM Subscribe
Male engineering student Jared Mauldin, a senior at Eastern Washington University, wrote a letter to the editor of The Easterner expounding on the differences between him and the women entering his program.
The Ms. Magazine blog calls him "a true feminist ally." But Jared told Today that his letter shouldn't be considered notable. "Really, when you look at this letter, I said nothing new. I didn't say anything that another feminist writer hasn't said before. The distinguishing factor … happens to be that I am a man. That is a problem."
The Ms. Magazine blog calls him "a true feminist ally." But Jared told Today that his letter shouldn't be considered notable. "Really, when you look at this letter, I said nothing new. I didn't say anything that another feminist writer hasn't said before. The distinguishing factor … happens to be that I am a man. That is a problem."
Just as a reminder of how pervasive this is:
My second graders had PE today, and they played kickball. The ratio of athletic girls to boys in my class is pretty even, but there's one standout... the smallest girl in my class, she really looks like a kindergartener, completely dominates in every athletic activity we do.
In kickball she doesn't kick as far as some of the bigger kids, but she knows to kick it flat and runs like a cheetah. On defense she fields almost every ball, and if it's the air she catches it, and if there's a runner she throws her/him out (assuming the base-person can catch the ball she throws.)
So we're walking back to class, and my boys start up this conversation... "Next time let's play boys vs. girls." "No, that wouldn't be fair." I ask why, and they're like, "'Cause boys are better than girls at sports."
And this is seriously from a boy who got out because Alex (the little girl) made an amazing snag and threw him out at third base which was covered by another girl who caught the ball and tagged him out.
And he had just admitted that his team lost because of Alex and the other girl, wtf!
So I told them that if we did boys vs. girls I was 100% sure that they would be totally decimated no I didn't tell them that.
But there's this thing teachers can do where we present facts and then ask questions and we can get kids to agree with anything at all, and that's what I did, and at least for a few minutes those boys were willing to admit that the girls were the better kickballers.
But tomorrow, I swear to god, they'll be telling each other that the boys are better at sports than the girls.
And I realize that sports are a little different because they see men playing professional sports almost exclusively, but these kids are obsessed with soccer, and american women's soccer is completely amazing, while the men's.... isn't. So take your kids to watch women's soccer, people!
posted by Huck500 at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2015 [93 favorites]
My second graders had PE today, and they played kickball. The ratio of athletic girls to boys in my class is pretty even, but there's one standout... the smallest girl in my class, she really looks like a kindergartener, completely dominates in every athletic activity we do.
In kickball she doesn't kick as far as some of the bigger kids, but she knows to kick it flat and runs like a cheetah. On defense she fields almost every ball, and if it's the air she catches it, and if there's a runner she throws her/him out (assuming the base-person can catch the ball she throws.)
So we're walking back to class, and my boys start up this conversation... "Next time let's play boys vs. girls." "No, that wouldn't be fair." I ask why, and they're like, "'Cause boys are better than girls at sports."
And this is seriously from a boy who got out because Alex (the little girl) made an amazing snag and threw him out at third base which was covered by another girl who caught the ball and tagged him out.
And he had just admitted that his team lost because of Alex and the other girl, wtf!
So I told them that if we did boys vs. girls I was 100% sure that they would be totally decimated no I didn't tell them that.
But there's this thing teachers can do where we present facts and then ask questions and we can get kids to agree with anything at all, and that's what I did, and at least for a few minutes those boys were willing to admit that the girls were the better kickballers.
But tomorrow, I swear to god, they'll be telling each other that the boys are better at sports than the girls.
And I realize that sports are a little different because they see men playing professional sports almost exclusively, but these kids are obsessed with soccer, and american women's soccer is completely amazing, while the men's.... isn't. So take your kids to watch women's soccer, people!
posted by Huck500 at 4:33 PM on October 7, 2015 [93 favorites]
Is there a word for this kind of framing that gets you all "Oh do not even start with that shit you motherfucker" and then takes a sharp sudden turn towards basic human decency?
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:40 PM on October 7, 2015 [40 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:40 PM on October 7, 2015 [40 favorites]
The 1950s thing to say would be, that will earn him a bunch of dates, but I hope the 2015 version is that will earn him a lot of interviews. Jobs and otherwise. Viral that right up, more please!
posted by Dashy at 4:47 PM on October 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 4:47 PM on October 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
"Really, when you look at this letter, I said nothing new. I didn't say anything that another feminist writer hasn't said before. The distinguishing factor … happens to be that I am a man. That is a problem."
Kid has a good damn point. Men talk, people listen.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:54 PM on October 7, 2015 [33 favorites]
Kid has a good damn point. Men talk, people listen.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:54 PM on October 7, 2015 [33 favorites]
Is there a word for this kind of framing that gets you all "Oh do not even start with that shit you motherfucker" and then takes a sharp sudden turn towards basic human decency?
The old switcheroo.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:56 PM on October 7, 2015 [21 favorites]
The old switcheroo.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:56 PM on October 7, 2015 [21 favorites]
It's like an enraejoy.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:02 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Deoridhe at 5:02 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I also started this wondering if this letter was going to make him a viral pariah, only to be pleasantly surprised - and impressed.
posted by jb at 5:04 PM on October 7, 2015
posted by jb at 5:04 PM on October 7, 2015
Is there a word for being so glad that this guy is completely right about the fact that it makes a difference that he, a man, is saying this stuff, while at the same time being disappointed that it takes a man to say this stuff for people to listen?
posted by numaner at 5:16 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by numaner at 5:16 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
This is called "getting it."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:21 PM on October 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:21 PM on October 7, 2015 [9 favorites]
The 1950s thing to say would be, that will earn him a bunch of dates, but I hope the 2015 version is that will earn him a lot of interviews
He makes a similar point in the final link, but I've also never been happy with the idea of men like myself being 'rewarded' for speaking up on behalf of women. The idea seems to be that a women talking about gender issues is acting in her own self-interest, while a man who does so is somehow selfless because he's fighting for someone else. I hope I don't seem too confrontational; it's just something I've struggled with, being in a somewhat similar position to this man (though I've a while before I graduate)
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2015 [10 favorites]
He makes a similar point in the final link, but I've also never been happy with the idea of men like myself being 'rewarded' for speaking up on behalf of women. The idea seems to be that a women talking about gender issues is acting in her own self-interest, while a man who does so is somehow selfless because he's fighting for someone else. I hope I don't seem too confrontational; it's just something I've struggled with, being in a somewhat similar position to this man (though I've a while before I graduate)
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2015 [10 favorites]
He makes a similar point in the final link, but I've also never been happy with the idea of men like myself being 'rewarded' for speaking up on behalf of women.
Yeah, I'm still amazed at how often I congratulate myself for not being an asshole.
I mean, SERIOUSLY.
posted by Mooski at 5:50 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I'm still amazed at how often I congratulate myself for not being an asshole.
I mean, SERIOUSLY.
posted by Mooski at 5:50 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
I have to say, I'm pretty sick of seeing men getting cookies for even the slightest acknowledgment of things women are pointing out all the time. But I will grant him one name-brand sandwich cookie, such as an Oreo, Nutter Butter, or one of those wafer things, for also pointing out how messed up it is that he's getting such overblown credit.
Why is this so remarkable?
I notice and acknowledge the effects of privilege, too, including those that benefit me. I don't want a parade, but I feel like someone should be getting me a burrito or something.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:00 PM on October 7, 2015 [17 favorites]
Why is this so remarkable?
I notice and acknowledge the effects of privilege, too, including those that benefit me. I don't want a parade, but I feel like someone should be getting me a burrito or something.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:00 PM on October 7, 2015 [17 favorites]
The paradox of ally cookies is that when you find an ally who doesn't expect cookies it really makes you want to give them a cookie.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:11 PM on October 7, 2015 [95 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:11 PM on October 7, 2015 [95 favorites]
Yeah, I'm still amazed at how often I congratulate myself for not being an asshole.
Still better than congratulating yourself for being an asshole.
posted by Alter Cocker at 6:12 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
Still better than congratulating yourself for being an asshole.
posted by Alter Cocker at 6:12 PM on October 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
The 1950s thing to say would be, that will earn him a bunch of dates, but I hope the 2015 version is that will earn him a lot of interviews. Jobs and otherwise. Viral that right up, more please!
I hope it will earn a lot of engineering women a lot of interviews.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:15 PM on October 7, 2015 [14 favorites]
I hope it will earn a lot of engineering women a lot of interviews.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:15 PM on October 7, 2015 [14 favorites]
I have to say, I'm pretty sick of seeing men getting cookies for even the slightest acknowledgment of things women are pointing out all the time....
Why is this so remarkable?
No to mention -- and maybe this is stating the obvious -- but if the letter had been written by an engineering student who was a woman, it would likely be characterized completely differently. Axe-grindy, attention-seeking, troublemaking, unappreciative of opportunities -- take your pick. Or, worse, it would have been dismissed with a "yeah, yeah, we've heard this all before," and left at that. (Would it have even been published?)
Assertions like the ones he made need the penis seal of approval, basically, before people nod and go "oh, right!"
posted by mudpuppie at 6:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [16 favorites]
Why is this so remarkable?
No to mention -- and maybe this is stating the obvious -- but if the letter had been written by an engineering student who was a woman, it would likely be characterized completely differently. Axe-grindy, attention-seeking, troublemaking, unappreciative of opportunities -- take your pick. Or, worse, it would have been dismissed with a "yeah, yeah, we've heard this all before," and left at that. (Would it have even been published?)
Assertions like the ones he made need the penis seal of approval, basically, before people nod and go "oh, right!"
posted by mudpuppie at 6:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [16 favorites]
Why is this so remarkable?
I think maybe because he's a male engineering student (no offense to male engineers :/ I'm related to one and know a few more and they're lovely etc but aaaaaaaaa this piece was nice to see and a bit of a surprise). It might do some good in his department, maybe.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think maybe because he's a male engineering student (no offense to male engineers :/ I'm related to one and know a few more and they're lovely etc but aaaaaaaaa this piece was nice to see and a bit of a surprise). It might do some good in his department, maybe.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:23 PM on October 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
His sentiment is correct, but ... I don't know, the letter just rubs me the wrong way. It's a cost-free exercise: he's almost certainly not going to suffer any repercussions for it, even social ones. Certainly not professional ones. I would be more impressed if the letter had been a call for action to redress the imbalance, particularly if it were something that would affect him. E.g., maybe the faculty should put more effort into mentoring potential female students? I'm not there; I don't know; but a letter of recognition just seems an empty gesture.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:44 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:44 PM on October 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why is this so remarkable?
As a male engineer who went to school with mostly male engineers...let's just say neither empathy nor self-reflection are in surplus.
posted by notsnot at 7:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [39 favorites]
As a male engineer who went to school with mostly male engineers...let's just say neither empathy nor self-reflection are in surplus.
posted by notsnot at 7:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [39 favorites]
I think he gave these comments in good faith and I don't read it as #notallmenning. I think he was saying "As a man, I get it."
I was starting high school when the École Polytechnique massacre happened. Marc Lepine specifically targeted female engineers.
When I started university in 1994, I was living in an all-male residence floor. In the shared lounge on our floor, the news was on TV, and an item about the anniversary of the massacre came on.
One guy piped up "Oh, just what we need. Another issue for women to whine about." I was about to jump in when the biggest guy on our floor, a strapping farm boy (not a pejorative - he grew up on a pig farm and was massively muscular, and in engineering) whirled around and said something like this: "He killed them because they were women. What's your fucking problem? They were in the same program I'm in! How come women can't take engineering classes and not get shot."
Misogynist guy didn't say anything else.
I guess this is a long way of saying that yeah, men can say things in a cost-free way, but also - if men are confronting other men on misogyny, that's important too. But because we don't have our literal lives on the line, we can take it or leave it at our convenience. We always are included and expect it.
Cookie? No. Just baseline decent human behaviour that shouldn't warrant notice.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:02 PM on October 7, 2015 [51 favorites]
I was starting high school when the École Polytechnique massacre happened. Marc Lepine specifically targeted female engineers.
When I started university in 1994, I was living in an all-male residence floor. In the shared lounge on our floor, the news was on TV, and an item about the anniversary of the massacre came on.
One guy piped up "Oh, just what we need. Another issue for women to whine about." I was about to jump in when the biggest guy on our floor, a strapping farm boy (not a pejorative - he grew up on a pig farm and was massively muscular, and in engineering) whirled around and said something like this: "He killed them because they were women. What's your fucking problem? They were in the same program I'm in! How come women can't take engineering classes and not get shot."
Misogynist guy didn't say anything else.
I guess this is a long way of saying that yeah, men can say things in a cost-free way, but also - if men are confronting other men on misogyny, that's important too. But because we don't have our literal lives on the line, we can take it or leave it at our convenience. We always are included and expect it.
Cookie? No. Just baseline decent human behaviour that shouldn't warrant notice.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:02 PM on October 7, 2015 [51 favorites]
I guess I am hereby willing to grant a cookie to anyone who is willing to speak up for me to dudes who won't hear any thing I say. I don't wish that this might be the way of things forever, but if I am going for a run or to the grocery store or something and you are a guy who shuts down another guy who is being an ass to me (which ass-ness happens every single time I go outside without exception), I will give you a goddamn cookie. It will be store-bought and it will be okay.
You are doing more for me than any other stranger. If it makes you feel more like you're doing the right thing if you get a cookie for it, let's do it. Let's Pavlov you and get you regularly reminding other men that I am a human being who is also a protagonist in their own life. Cookies for any defenders. It's clear clear clear that there are too few of you.
posted by lauranesson at 8:13 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
You are doing more for me than any other stranger. If it makes you feel more like you're doing the right thing if you get a cookie for it, let's do it. Let's Pavlov you and get you regularly reminding other men that I am a human being who is also a protagonist in their own life. Cookies for any defenders. It's clear clear clear that there are too few of you.
posted by lauranesson at 8:13 PM on October 7, 2015 [12 favorites]
Men can be raised and taught better. Also, they can learn. No cookies. Here's right and wrong. Men have their part in this, in a big way - call it when it happens. Fight it. It should cut you to the core, guys.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:35 PM on October 7, 2015
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:35 PM on October 7, 2015
I have worked with male engineers very extensively. That question was supposed to be rhetorical.
I do think the guy in the story is a decent human being, and unfortunately, there aren't enough decent men who are morally and intellectually capable of taking a stance. Just let's not lose sight of just how low this particular bar has been set.
I was in a planning meeting once for some technical project, and I'd brought up some issue and been totally ignored by everyone else in the room. Moments later, a guy spoke up and pretty much repeated what I'd said and got an extremely enthusiastic response. And then he pointed out that it I'd just said that exact thing and everyone had ignored me.
What that guy did was not some big act of heroism. All it really was was an OK and not evil thing to do. It was in the better interests of the project and the company, and it was pointing out unacceptable behavior that needed pointed out. The only thing that made it remarkable was the fact that all the other people in the room were stupid assholes.
So what this whole thing says is that the default for men is 'stupid asshole,' and simply rising above that makes you remarkable. A talking dog! The world's largest turnip! A guy who notices sexism in a notoriously sexist field!
posted by ernielundquist at 8:37 PM on October 7, 2015 [17 favorites]
I do think the guy in the story is a decent human being, and unfortunately, there aren't enough decent men who are morally and intellectually capable of taking a stance. Just let's not lose sight of just how low this particular bar has been set.
I was in a planning meeting once for some technical project, and I'd brought up some issue and been totally ignored by everyone else in the room. Moments later, a guy spoke up and pretty much repeated what I'd said and got an extremely enthusiastic response. And then he pointed out that it I'd just said that exact thing and everyone had ignored me.
What that guy did was not some big act of heroism. All it really was was an OK and not evil thing to do. It was in the better interests of the project and the company, and it was pointing out unacceptable behavior that needed pointed out. The only thing that made it remarkable was the fact that all the other people in the room were stupid assholes.
So what this whole thing says is that the default for men is 'stupid asshole,' and simply rising above that makes you remarkable. A talking dog! The world's largest turnip! A guy who notices sexism in a notoriously sexist field!
posted by ernielundquist at 8:37 PM on October 7, 2015 [17 favorites]
Pointing out unacceptable behavior is hard, no matter who you are, and as a long history demonstrates, rare.
I think it calls for positive reinforcement. Because god knows the pack ripping someone down for behavior deviating from the norm is, well, the norm.
posted by Dashy at 9:03 PM on October 7, 2015 [17 favorites]
I think it calls for positive reinforcement. Because god knows the pack ripping someone down for behavior deviating from the norm is, well, the norm.
posted by Dashy at 9:03 PM on October 7, 2015 [17 favorites]
Pointing out unacceptable behavior is hard, no matter who you are, and as a long history demonstrates, rare.
And yet, for many people, ignoring it isn't much of an option. The alternative to pointing it out is standing by and watching others get credit for our work. And not just abstract credit, but monetary compensation.
Yes, I do think that men who try to mitigate the effects of sexism get some credit for that. But you know what else I think? Those who don't are actively profiting from it. If they're not straight up stealing credit for women's work, they're passively benefiting from it.
Yeah, there are some social costs for men who acknowledge and try to counter this, but that's nothing compared to the social costs of not being a man in the first place.
Let's recognize all the women who've taken real risks and actually stuck their necks out and paid the price before we start blowing smoke up men's asses for baby step common decencies that cost them so little.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:27 PM on October 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
And yet, for many people, ignoring it isn't much of an option. The alternative to pointing it out is standing by and watching others get credit for our work. And not just abstract credit, but monetary compensation.
Yes, I do think that men who try to mitigate the effects of sexism get some credit for that. But you know what else I think? Those who don't are actively profiting from it. If they're not straight up stealing credit for women's work, they're passively benefiting from it.
Yeah, there are some social costs for men who acknowledge and try to counter this, but that's nothing compared to the social costs of not being a man in the first place.
Let's recognize all the women who've taken real risks and actually stuck their necks out and paid the price before we start blowing smoke up men's asses for baby step common decencies that cost them so little.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:27 PM on October 7, 2015 [6 favorites]
Earlier part of the story here: one of the hardest things for me to do is convince a 14 or 15-year-old girl that they've totally got the problem in front of them, and they don't need my help. I'm tired of girls crying inside my room because they can't get over the mental roadblock of what they've been told outside of it. It's total bullshit, and it's totally unfair to some really talented kids.
Parents, do your job: don't tell your daughters they can't do it; and when your friends say that, tell them to STFU. Then maybe we'll need fewer letters to The Easterner.
Here's the part where I piss off some people:
Don't throw a giant party for your girl when she's a teenager telling her she's now a young lady and then proceed to treat her like a little girl again the next day. That cat's out of the bag. Extended families of my Hispanic students, I'm super looking at you after the Quinceañera. The kid's got more to give to the world than being a baby machine.
posted by parliboy at 9:30 PM on October 7, 2015
Parents, do your job: don't tell your daughters they can't do it; and when your friends say that, tell them to STFU. Then maybe we'll need fewer letters to The Easterner.
Here's the part where I piss off some people:
Don't throw a giant party for your girl when she's a teenager telling her she's now a young lady and then proceed to treat her like a little girl again the next day. That cat's out of the bag. Extended families of my Hispanic students, I'm super looking at you after the Quinceañera. The kid's got more to give to the world than being a baby machine.
posted by parliboy at 9:30 PM on October 7, 2015
Hey, that is a student at my university! I hope he slums a bit and takes a history class from me, I'd be honored to have him in class.
posted by LarryC at 9:51 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by LarryC at 9:51 PM on October 7, 2015 [3 favorites]
Is there a word for this kind of framing that gets you all "Oh do not even start with that shit you motherfucker" and then takes a sharp sudden turn towards basic human decency?
Tiresome clickbait? Editorial overreach? Provocative framing?
Men can be raised and taught better. Also, they can learn. No cookies. Here's right and wrong. Men have their part in this, in a big way - call it when it happens. Fight it. It should cut you to the core, guys.
No matter how much you try and teach a kid this stuff, every other kid is trying to teach them otherwise, telling them they're wrong, and even making fun of them for sticking up for that side of the argument.
I don't really know what to say or do about this, but there's a LOT of force pushing against you as a young man and boy to fall in line with this stuff. It wasn't until i was like, a grown ass adult who lived on my own, was out of school, and got to entirely pick my own friends and peers(chosing workplace, activities, etc) that i was able to escape there always being at least a couple guys tugging this side of the rope even some of the time.
In elementary and middle school it was seriously everywhere. Parroted default manbrodude bullshit that boys think they're supposed to say and believe to Be A Man.
posted by emptythought at 10:09 PM on October 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
Tiresome clickbait? Editorial overreach? Provocative framing?
Men can be raised and taught better. Also, they can learn. No cookies. Here's right and wrong. Men have their part in this, in a big way - call it when it happens. Fight it. It should cut you to the core, guys.
No matter how much you try and teach a kid this stuff, every other kid is trying to teach them otherwise, telling them they're wrong, and even making fun of them for sticking up for that side of the argument.
I don't really know what to say or do about this, but there's a LOT of force pushing against you as a young man and boy to fall in line with this stuff. It wasn't until i was like, a grown ass adult who lived on my own, was out of school, and got to entirely pick my own friends and peers(chosing workplace, activities, etc) that i was able to escape there always being at least a couple guys tugging this side of the rope even some of the time.
In elementary and middle school it was seriously everywhere. Parroted default manbrodude bullshit that boys think they're supposed to say and believe to Be A Man.
posted by emptythought at 10:09 PM on October 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
This article by a male programmer about his "silent technical privilege" makes a similar point, and goes a little more in depth.
posted by blub at 11:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by blub at 11:55 PM on October 7, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm still pissed that I have to worry about structural inequity while learning Ruby on Rails. Really? It's already hard enough to learn the code and develop the immense willpower and patience for it, do I really need to start practicing it for ignorant assholes? Doesn't that get in the way of productivity and innovation? Ugh patriarchy!
posted by yueliang at 12:25 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by yueliang at 12:25 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good for him. We need more like him. That way there won't be so many of them.
posted by h00py at 2:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by h00py at 2:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here's the part where I piss off some people:
Don't throw a giant party for your girl when she's a teenager telling her she's now a young lady and then proceed to treat her like a little girl again the next day. That cat's out of the bag. Extended families of my Hispanic students, I'm super looking at you after the Quinceañera. The kid's got more to give to the world than being a baby machine.
And don't throw your daughter a sweet sixteen and don't let you child have a bar/bat mitzvah, or take you kid hunting and rub some deer blood on their head, or celebrate confirmation, or get a tattoo, or go walkabout, or be a debutante, or eat at the big table or whatever it is that your particular group does to commemorate adulthood.
My understanding is that there is a correlation between women's education and birth rates and that there is also a correlation between poverty and birth rates.
I have Latina family members that dropped out of school and had children. I also have Latina family members that are lawyers and MBAs and professors. The biggest difference between the groups is that the ones who grew up in middle class families, with college educated parents who supported and encouraged them did better. But my cousin who had a single mother and a father in jail still went to Harvard and Stanford and got advanced degrees and still goes to an evangelical megachurch and I don't even understand what that is all about. But the difference between all of them is not that some had Quinceañeras and that some didn't.
Did you consider that there may be systemic problems and that it's not just individual Hispanic girls that haven't understood your Carpe Diem speech?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Don't throw a giant party for your girl when she's a teenager telling her she's now a young lady and then proceed to treat her like a little girl again the next day. That cat's out of the bag. Extended families of my Hispanic students, I'm super looking at you after the Quinceañera. The kid's got more to give to the world than being a baby machine.
And don't throw your daughter a sweet sixteen and don't let you child have a bar/bat mitzvah, or take you kid hunting and rub some deer blood on their head, or celebrate confirmation, or get a tattoo, or go walkabout, or be a debutante, or eat at the big table or whatever it is that your particular group does to commemorate adulthood.
My understanding is that there is a correlation between women's education and birth rates and that there is also a correlation between poverty and birth rates.
I have Latina family members that dropped out of school and had children. I also have Latina family members that are lawyers and MBAs and professors. The biggest difference between the groups is that the ones who grew up in middle class families, with college educated parents who supported and encouraged them did better. But my cousin who had a single mother and a father in jail still went to Harvard and Stanford and got advanced degrees and still goes to an evangelical megachurch and I don't even understand what that is all about. But the difference between all of them is not that some had Quinceañeras and that some didn't.
Did you consider that there may be systemic problems and that it's not just individual Hispanic girls that haven't understood your Carpe Diem speech?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
The kid's got more to give to the world than being a baby machine.
You don't encourage young girls by denigrating women who make choices you don't approve of.
posted by three blind mice at 4:30 AM on October 8, 2015 [19 favorites]
You don't encourage young girls by denigrating women who make choices you don't approve of.
posted by three blind mice at 4:30 AM on October 8, 2015 [19 favorites]
"Pointing out unacceptable behavior is hard, no matter who you are, and as a long history demonstrates, rare.
I think it calls for positive reinforcement. Because god knows the pack ripping someone down for behavior deviating from the norm is, well, the norm."
Yes.
While women face greater repercussions and are less often heard or taken seriously on these issues--- women also have direct gain if they can push for change.
Feminism itself has had it's share of intersectional failures where women were willing to stick their necks out- for other women like them. Black women, women with disabilities-- sometimes still being kicked down and white able bodied middle class women fighting for framing of issues that can actually hurt women in other groups.
It is HARD to relate to and fight for people in groups you're not a part of. It's ALSO hard to fight for groups you are a part of. It's all hard. I think everyone should get cookies. Standing up for justice is really really hard and changing human behavior, challenging yourself and your peers-- it's hard. I really don't want to see everyone who does stand up and speak getting slammed for doing so. I'm ecstatic when I see men speak up for justice, able bodied people sticking up for those who are not, people with class privilege calling it out and challenging it even when it makes themselves feel bad or means they themselves need to change.
Men should not be taken more seriously than women on this but since they are, I really hope we will have men involved in fighting for justice, as we could use more white, able bodied, cisgender, class privileged women actually listening stepping back to understand, granting audience to, and fighting to make changes for other women with different burdens.
People in general aren't good at sticking their necks out for people they don't have to care about. I am in favor of celebrating people doing this-- yes ask that people do it well, yes be willing to point out if there are errors made in what's said since it's easy to make errors standing up for others when you don't exactly how they want you to. So it involves listening, being humble, hearing you're doing it wrong, being silent when it's best to just listen, but also very much using the power of your voice when you would rather be silent.
And it's hard as fuck.
posted by xarnop at 4:48 AM on October 8, 2015 [17 favorites]
I think it calls for positive reinforcement. Because god knows the pack ripping someone down for behavior deviating from the norm is, well, the norm."
Yes.
While women face greater repercussions and are less often heard or taken seriously on these issues--- women also have direct gain if they can push for change.
Feminism itself has had it's share of intersectional failures where women were willing to stick their necks out- for other women like them. Black women, women with disabilities-- sometimes still being kicked down and white able bodied middle class women fighting for framing of issues that can actually hurt women in other groups.
It is HARD to relate to and fight for people in groups you're not a part of. It's ALSO hard to fight for groups you are a part of. It's all hard. I think everyone should get cookies. Standing up for justice is really really hard and changing human behavior, challenging yourself and your peers-- it's hard. I really don't want to see everyone who does stand up and speak getting slammed for doing so. I'm ecstatic when I see men speak up for justice, able bodied people sticking up for those who are not, people with class privilege calling it out and challenging it even when it makes themselves feel bad or means they themselves need to change.
Men should not be taken more seriously than women on this but since they are, I really hope we will have men involved in fighting for justice, as we could use more white, able bodied, cisgender, class privileged women actually listening stepping back to understand, granting audience to, and fighting to make changes for other women with different burdens.
People in general aren't good at sticking their necks out for people they don't have to care about. I am in favor of celebrating people doing this-- yes ask that people do it well, yes be willing to point out if there are errors made in what's said since it's easy to make errors standing up for others when you don't exactly how they want you to. So it involves listening, being humble, hearing you're doing it wrong, being silent when it's best to just listen, but also very much using the power of your voice when you would rather be silent.
And it's hard as fuck.
posted by xarnop at 4:48 AM on October 8, 2015 [17 favorites]
I probably just spend too much time on MetaFilter, and therefore have a distorted notion of what's normal, but...yeah. The letter is 100% right, but it's a bog-standard and unremarkable example of the "acknowledging one's own privilege" genre. It's great that this person acknowledges well established truths that have been covered in far greater detail elsewhere, but as he himself notes, he is not some kind of revolutionary genius for doing so. The accolades are kind of weird.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:15 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:15 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's great that this person acknowledges well established truths that have been covered in far greater detail elsewhere, but as he himself notes, he is not some kind of revolutionary genius for doing so.
See also, "Too-tight ponytails and buns cause male hair loss!"
posted by Room 641-A at 7:07 AM on October 8, 2015
See also, "Too-tight ponytails and buns cause male hair loss!"
posted by Room 641-A at 7:07 AM on October 8, 2015
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Hi, moderator here -- sometimes comments get deleted if they're likely to lead to a major derail of the conversation. Stuff about "oh he's just trying to impress girls with this" would do that, so it got deleted. If you ever have a question about a deletion, hit us up at the contact form (linked in the bottom right corner of every page) - it's staffed 24/7 and you'll get a quick reply.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:09 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:09 AM on October 8, 2015
I saw this shared on social media and all the comments were about how many dates the author will have. That bummed me out a bit and I commented to that extent.
One of the commentators pointed out that there are so many shitty dudes out there that it's hard not be to happy when you see a dude not be shitty.
THAT'S shitty.
posted by Richat at 8:18 AM on October 8, 2015
One of the commentators pointed out that there are so many shitty dudes out there that it's hard not be to happy when you see a dude not be shitty.
THAT'S shitty.
posted by Richat at 8:18 AM on October 8, 2015
I've mentioned this before, but my father is a chemist, albeit recently retired. He's nearly 70. He got his Ph.D. in 1972, and ran research labs in universities my whole life.
When I was growing up in Texas in the 1980s, he explained to me that if he was presented with two equivalent resumes, one from a female candidate and one from a male candidate, he would always recommend hiring the woman. This was because, he said, a woman would have to be smarter, work harder, and be more dedicated in order to build a resume that was the equivalent to the man's.
This had rippling effects; his lab always had many women working in it, nearly half his researchers were women. And because nobody else had figured out what my dad had (or perishingly few, anyway), they tended to remain in his organization for longer, rather than institution-hopping, with the result that they had a tendency to become more senior than the men (which was helped along by the fact that my dad really defended people's right to take the family leave they were owed). This led to more female graduate students choosing to work there, and they got their pick of some really breathtakingly brilliant students, too. My dad actually delayed his retirement in order to see his last student through the end of her schooling and presentation of her research at an international conference.
My dad is not a particularly feminist person. It probably would never have occurred to him to write a letter like this. He's just not toxically, irrationally misogynist. And sadly, particularly in STEM, even that pathetically low bar is rare to clear.
posted by KathrynT at 8:38 AM on October 8, 2015 [27 favorites]
When I was growing up in Texas in the 1980s, he explained to me that if he was presented with two equivalent resumes, one from a female candidate and one from a male candidate, he would always recommend hiring the woman. This was because, he said, a woman would have to be smarter, work harder, and be more dedicated in order to build a resume that was the equivalent to the man's.
This had rippling effects; his lab always had many women working in it, nearly half his researchers were women. And because nobody else had figured out what my dad had (or perishingly few, anyway), they tended to remain in his organization for longer, rather than institution-hopping, with the result that they had a tendency to become more senior than the men (which was helped along by the fact that my dad really defended people's right to take the family leave they were owed). This led to more female graduate students choosing to work there, and they got their pick of some really breathtakingly brilliant students, too. My dad actually delayed his retirement in order to see his last student through the end of her schooling and presentation of her research at an international conference.
My dad is not a particularly feminist person. It probably would never have occurred to him to write a letter like this. He's just not toxically, irrationally misogynist. And sadly, particularly in STEM, even that pathetically low bar is rare to clear.
posted by KathrynT at 8:38 AM on October 8, 2015 [27 favorites]
I saw this shared on social media and all the comments were about how many dates the author will have. That bummed me out a bit and I commented to that extent.
That's what I expected, and it's a disappointing 1950s-era reaction (women are prizes, etc). We know better than to reward women with a good date / husband as the ultimate prize in life, but we need to work on that being universal.
And that's what I was thinking about when I wrote the comment above, hoping that instead of dates we in 2015 can wish him employment, so that we have a workplace filled (but not too filled of course) with men who respect the women around them.
posted by Dashy at 8:49 AM on October 8, 2015
That's what I expected, and it's a disappointing 1950s-era reaction (women are prizes, etc). We know better than to reward women with a good date / husband as the ultimate prize in life, but we need to work on that being universal.
And that's what I was thinking about when I wrote the comment above, hoping that instead of dates we in 2015 can wish him employment, so that we have a workplace filled (but not too filled of course) with men who respect the women around them.
posted by Dashy at 8:49 AM on October 8, 2015
In grade school I never had to fear being rejected by my peers because of my interests.
Did we eliminate the concept of 'nerd' from American culture at some point?
posted by pwnguin at 9:11 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did we eliminate the concept of 'nerd' from American culture at some point?
posted by pwnguin at 9:11 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, the concept of "nerd" that we grew up with? The one that treats tech skills as necessarily correlated with total social hopelessness? Yeah, we kind of did eliminate that concept.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:58 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:58 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't know if it's just tech skills or whether it might be a byproduct of the sort of person attracted to engineering + the necessary training or what... I mean they're professionally obliged to be CONFIDENT about their assumptions, they *have* to know their stuff inside and out (who wants a self doubter making bridges etc); their training is (according to the engineers I know anyway) absolutely brutal and competitive, it can't help but distort people who might be vulnerable to distortion in the first place (if they are).
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:24 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:24 AM on October 8, 2015
While women face greater repercussions and are less often heard or taken seriously on these issues--- women also have direct gain if they can push for change.
Feminism itself has had it's share of intersectional failures where women were willing to stick their necks out- for other women like them. Black women, women with disabilities-- sometimes still being kicked down and white able bodied middle class women fighting for framing of issues that can actually hurt women in other groups.
Who are these hypocritical white able bodied middle class women you're talking about? I mean, specifically.
I know they exist, of course, but how is that relevant? Are you assuming some sort of double standard? The fact is that if you are benefitting from someone else's oppression, you are culpable. Recognizing and rejecting that is about as heroic as refusing stolen goods.
Yes, unfortunately, we still have to encourage basic honest behavior, but that needs to shift, and maybe rather than overpraising those who do something as simple as pointing out discrimination against others, we should be much more publicly shaming those who do.
It was a nice thing that guy did, and he seems like an honest and reasonable person who, assuming basic competence, would be a valuable asset for his employer. Let's focus on why that's so remarkable.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:12 PM on October 8, 2015
Feminism itself has had it's share of intersectional failures where women were willing to stick their necks out- for other women like them. Black women, women with disabilities-- sometimes still being kicked down and white able bodied middle class women fighting for framing of issues that can actually hurt women in other groups.
Who are these hypocritical white able bodied middle class women you're talking about? I mean, specifically.
I know they exist, of course, but how is that relevant? Are you assuming some sort of double standard? The fact is that if you are benefitting from someone else's oppression, you are culpable. Recognizing and rejecting that is about as heroic as refusing stolen goods.
Yes, unfortunately, we still have to encourage basic honest behavior, but that needs to shift, and maybe rather than overpraising those who do something as simple as pointing out discrimination against others, we should be much more publicly shaming those who do.
It was a nice thing that guy did, and he seems like an honest and reasonable person who, assuming basic competence, would be a valuable asset for his employer. Let's focus on why that's so remarkable.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:12 PM on October 8, 2015
I don't understand the strong reaction against praising things just because they should be baseline. I thank people all the time for things that are more or less the bare minimum efforts they could make for me, or are things they're paid to do anyway. I don't do it because they deserve a cookie for being special. I don't do it in spite of the people who don't get thanked; since that is beyond my control all I can do is be even with my own thanks.
Refusing to provide those thanks because others aren't getting them does nothing to push the world towards the nicer place I would like it to be. For that I both thank the good and complain about the bad. I have room in my behavior to do these things simultaneously and I don't need to forgo praising one thing because it's not the best way this could be said or done.
posted by phearlez at 12:23 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
Refusing to provide those thanks because others aren't getting them does nothing to push the world towards the nicer place I would like it to be. For that I both thank the good and complain about the bad. I have room in my behavior to do these things simultaneously and I don't need to forgo praising one thing because it's not the best way this could be said or done.
posted by phearlez at 12:23 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
I sometimes teach freshman engineers, and I always marvel at the women in the class who stick it out among young men. I sometimes hear stories of frustration from them, and I wonder what I can do as an instructor to relieve them of some of that burden.
I was an STEM major, but I never had to experience what some of these women go through regularly - and from their peers, no less!
Good on this young man.
posted by invokeuse at 10:43 AM on October 9, 2015
I was an STEM major, but I never had to experience what some of these women go through regularly - and from their peers, no less!
Good on this young man.
posted by invokeuse at 10:43 AM on October 9, 2015
How Geek Culture Taught Me About My Privilege: Why Was I so Readily Accepted When Women Aren’t?
posted by homunculus at 7:13 PM on October 10, 2015
posted by homunculus at 7:13 PM on October 10, 2015
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posted by Repack Rider at 3:59 PM on October 7, 2015