Why Do I Make Less Than My Male Co-Stars?
October 13, 2015 11:17 AM   Subscribe

...if I’m honest with myself, I would be lying if I didn’t say there was an element of wanting to be liked that influenced my decision to close the deal without a real fight. I didn’t want to seem “difficult” or “spoiled.” At the time, that seemed like a fine idea, until I saw the payroll on the Internet and realized every man I was working with definitely didn’t worry about being “difficult” or “spoiled.”
Academy Award-winning actress Jennifer Lawrence on the wage gap between male and female actors
posted by The Gooch (130 comments total) 52 users marked this as a favorite
 
I continue to be impressed with her thoughtful and articulate responses to situations like this and the leak of her nude photos. Also she seems goofy and I want to be her best friend.
posted by chatongriffes at 11:31 AM on October 13, 2015 [34 favorites]


I’m over trying to find the “adorable” way to state my opinion and still be likable!

I deal with a lot of employment cases, including salary and severance negotiations. I find that as a society, we have socialized women to care a lot more about what other people think in the workplace. It consistently holds them back. Our girls should be taught to say what Ms. Lawrence does in her very next sentence:

Fuck that.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:34 AM on October 13, 2015 [34 favorites]


So, wait, actors negotiate their own salaries? I always assumed that their agents did that. Weird.
posted by I-baLL at 11:40 AM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Part of the problem is that women are seen as "difficult" and "spoiled" instead of "tough" and "take no prisoners" or whatever nonsense. I totally agree with Ms. Lawrence and support her and part of the problem is that women are taught that we need to be liked (of course she doesn't want to be seen as difficult! Women have been taught that it's a not-okay way to be and being perceived as difficult could seriously affect her career) AND the bar for being likeable and cool is much, MUCH higher.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:41 AM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm trying to teach my daughter to be all "fuck you pay me" but I'd be lying if there wasn't an element of fear. Fear that she'll bite off more than she can chew. A strong impulse to protect her and keep her from some nebulous harm that standing up for herself will bring.

Luckily this pisses her right off and makes her more headstrong.
posted by fullerine at 11:42 AM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


A few weeks ago at work, I spoke my mind and gave my opinion in a clear and no-bullshit way; no aggression, just blunt. The man I was working with (actually, he was working for me) said, “Whoa! We’re all on the same team here!” As if I was yelling at him. I was so shocked because nothing that I said was personal, offensive, or, to be honest, wrong. All I hear and see all day are men speaking their opinions, and I give mine in the same exact manner, and you would have thought I had said something offensive.

This is what holds me back and keeps me raging on the inside.
posted by erratic meatsack at 11:44 AM on October 13, 2015 [69 favorites]


Part of the problem is that women are seen as "difficult" and "spoiled" instead of "tough" and "take no prisoners" or whatever nonsense. I totally agree with Ms. Lawrence and support her and part of the problem is that women are taught that we need to be liked (of course she doesn't want to be seen as difficult! Women have been taught that it's a not-okay way to be and being perceived as difficult could seriously affect her career) AND the bar for being likeable and cool is much, MUCH higher.

Reminds me of what Rihanna said in a recent interview with Miranda July in The New York Times:
‘‘You know, when I started to experience the difference — or even have my race be highlighted — it was mostly when I would do business deals.’’ Business deals. Meaning that everyone’s cool with a young black woman singing, dancing, partying and looking hot, but that when it comes time to negotiate, to broker a deal, she is suddenly made aware of her blackness. ‘‘And, you know, that never ends, by the way. It’s still a thing. And it’s the thing that makes me want to prove people wrong. It almost excites me; I know what they’re expecting and I can’t wait to show them that I’m here to exceed those expectations.’’ She sounded like a young black professional trying to make it in the corporate world, and I guessed she was — just on a very different scale.

‘‘But I have to bear in mind,’’ she continued, looking right at the voice recorder, ‘‘that those people are judging you because you’re packaged a certain way — they’ve been programmed to think a black man in a hoodie means grab your purse a little tighter. For me, it comes down to smaller issues, scenarios in which people can assume something of me without knowing me, just by my packaging.’’
posted by Fizz at 11:45 AM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


"but I'd be lying if there wasn't an element of fear. Fear that she'll bite off more than she can chew."

I think that's why the Sony hack was so interesting. In other industries you can find out what the pay is supposed to be for a certain job based on information about the pay rates for other jobs but in acting it seems like you go in blind and so they lowball and since you don't know what they normally pay then you end up screwed over. I remember reading about the salary differences and being amazed. Also, she's the star of the movies that she's in. I'm surprised that the studios are lowballing her since she's actually what draws a lot of people to see a movie.
posted by I-baLL at 11:48 AM on October 13, 2015


I'm surprised that the studios are lowballing her since she's actually what draws a lot of people to see a movie.

In every negotiation there is someone whose job it is to pay as little as possible for even the most critical parts of the finished product.

There's a longstanding joke in enterprise software sales that list prices are so crazy high because there's always - ALWAYS - a purchasing person whose job it is to get 25% off the list price. Like companies literally can't buy the most critical software in the world without getting a discount.

So you just make the list price 20% higher. And that person gets to get a 25% discount every time.

But in a world where there's zero transparency of course someone is trying to screw even the biggest stars out of money. And they probably are getting paid a lot to do so.
posted by GuyZero at 11:51 AM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Or maybe she needs a male agent.

BRB hiring a male agent before every other woman in the national workforce does
posted by rewil at 11:52 AM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


So, wait, actors negotiate their own salaries? I always assumed that their agents did that. Weird.

Yeah, I'm struggling to figure out why the impression of an actress who holds out for an equitable salary deal wouldn't just be, "Her agent plays hardball."
posted by straight at 11:52 AM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I don't like how dudes have to be "no bullshit" "tough talking" "get shit done" "badasses" in order to be seen as effective and it pains me how women are seen as "difficult" "spoiled" "bitches" when they try to be effective in the same way.

I would rather that our world change to be more open to the different ways of getting life done and respect that shit.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:52 AM on October 13, 2015 [23 favorites]


I'm surprised that the studios are lowballing her since she's actually what draws a lot of people to see a movie.

Unless they offer so little that she literally walks away (something that she is probably less likely than men to do because that kind of thing makes you "difficult" if you are a woman) they lose nothing by offering something low initially and she has more to lose than men by pushing back because the perception of women who push back is very negative.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:54 AM on October 13, 2015 [18 favorites]


The story from the leaked email gets more interesting when you consider that for American Hustle, Amy Adams initially negotiated a better back-end deal than Jennifer Lawrence, but Sony sweetened the deal for Lawrence to match the Adams deal, and then somehow the deals became linked, so that raising one would mean raising the other's.

The real winner seemed to be Jeremy Renner. Of the five big-name actors, he had the lowest name-recognition and profile, but still managed to get 9 percent, the same as Christian Bale and Bradley Cooper, and the director, David O'Russell.

I wasn’t completely wrong when another leaked Sony email revealed a producer referring to a fellow lead actress in a negotiation as a “spoiled brat.”

FYI, the "spoiled brat" in question was Angelina Jolie. Scott Rudin referred to her that way in an email to Amy Pascal, which then led to a priceless photo. You can almost see Angelina Jolie trying to choose between using an arm bar or choking her out.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:55 AM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


the perception of women who push back is very negative.

Oh, and I should have added, and this matters because how you are perceived affects things like what opportunities (jobs, promotions, salary, mentorship, friendship, projects) are offered to you. It's not as simple as "live with being disliked" (which, also, as a woman you shouldn't have to live with being disliked for doing something for which men are admired); being disliked actually has a really big effect on both personal and professional aspects of your life.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:57 AM on October 13, 2015 [53 favorites]


She is wonderful, absolutely wonderful. They finally put her on the side of a building here in Louisville, and the city is all the better for it.
posted by jbickers at 11:57 AM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


So, wait, actors negotiate their own salaries? I always assumed that their agents did that. Weird.

Yeah, I'm struggling to figure out why the impression of an actress who holds out for an equitable salary deal wouldn't just be, "Her agent plays hardball."


As much as it pains me to admit it, I find it totally believable that women have been socialized to even feel guilty about the actions men take in their names.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:58 AM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


How accurate are these Internet numbers on pay, or any numbers on actor/actress salary for that matter? And isn't their an incentive to inflate numbers so that they go into future negotiations with a stronger hand?

I ask, because it says here that Lawrence is the second highest paid actor in 2015. She beats Bradley Cooper by over $10 million.
posted by FJT at 12:00 PM on October 13, 2015


Lawrence and Cooper don't get paid per year, they get paid per film.
posted by ODiV at 12:01 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well sure, she might feel guilty about her agent playing hardball, but unless all the competent agents only work for men, that wouldn't explain the wage disparity.
posted by straight at 12:01 PM on October 13, 2015


"How accurate are these Internet numbers on pay, or any numbers on actor/actress salary for that matter?"

These were emails that leaked due to the Sony hack so these are straight from the horse's mouth.
posted by I-baLL at 12:02 PM on October 13, 2015


I don't like how dudes have to be "no bullshit" "tough talking" "get shit done" "badasses" in order to be seen as effective and it pains me how women are seen as "difficult" "spoiled" "bitches" when they try to be effective in the same way.

I would rather that our world change to be more open to the different ways of getting life done and respect that shit.


Yeah, the unspoken message in all of these "women get treated this way for acting the same way men do when men get treated that way" pretty much always seems to boil down to "everyone should be free to be a total dickbag, hooray!"
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, I'm struggling to figure out why the impression of an actress who holds out for an equitable salary deal wouldn't just be, "Her agent plays hardball."

I mean just a wild crazy guess here but I'm thinking maybe misogyny is as per usual the culprit? Why acknowledge the bargaining skills of a man when you can call a woman a shrill demanding bitch instead?
posted by poffin boffin at 12:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [33 favorites]


Some comments here are running perilously close to "surely this is all in her head, because surely female actresses are never punished for the requests made through their male proxies, nor are they regularly lampooned in the press for actions taken by their male proxies".

Pretty sure Lawrence knows more about how Hollywood works than we do.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [82 favorites]


I'm surprised that the studios are lowballing her since she's actually what draws a lot of people to see a movie.

So, that's an interesting point to make in all of this -- if salaries are pegged to how the actor can draw an audience to a movie, what exactly draws people to see movies and how do you quantify that?

Movies vary widely in target audience and genre, so you can't make a 1:1 correspondence between every actor in every given movie. They go 1-2 on the poster billing, but Robert Downey Jr.'s agent has a point when he says RDJ should get paid more than Gwyneth Paltrow if you're making Iron Man 3.

But if the salary delta between Melissa McCarthy and Jason Statham turns out to have been tiny ... well, Statham sure isn't selling that movie, so WTF, Hollywood?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:08 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


So, wait, actors negotiate their own salaries? I always assumed that their agents did that. Weird.

Even with agents the perception that the people they represent are to blame can come up. It happens in sports a lot. That said, there has to be a great opportunity for an agent that specializes in getting women what they deserve here. A Drew Rosenhaus type that plays hardball every time.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:13 PM on October 13, 2015


I'm not trying to contradict Lawrence, just trying to figure out how this works. I thought the whole point of having an agent was that they represented multiple actors, knew what the actor was worth and how much they could ask for, and allowed the actors to keep their hands free from the ugly parts of negotiations.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if even the best agent can't get as good a deal for women as for men, but I just don't see how in that situation Lawrence could feel like it was her fault for not pushing hard enough. If she didn't ask for enough, isn't that mostly her agent's fault?
posted by straight at 12:14 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


That said, there has to be a great opportunity for an agent that specializes in getting women what they deserve here.

I smell a Jerry Maguire sequel.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:15 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


There's this strange sense that Hollywood is guided by some sort of computer, that every spending decision has been made by accountants with reams of facts in front of them, and everything expressed publicly has been through hours of testing by PR professionals before it reaches the public. I suppose the logic is that if a movie costs $100 million, it must be an extraordinary machine.

I tend to trust the people who actually have experience with the industry, who describe it as run by a small group of unbelievably clueless old men who seem beholden mostly to weird, decades old superstitions, and then by an army of yes men beneath them who are all creepy business majors who read two books on filmmaking and decided they know everything. And I lived in Hollywood for five years and knew a bunch of film people, and used to be a Union extra for movies, and this is entirely consistent with my experiences.

So why is Lawrence paid less? Because Hollywood is run by a small group of unbelievably clueless old men who seem beholden mostly to weird, decades old superstitions, and then by an army of yes men beneath them who are all creepy business majors who read two books on filmmaking and decided they know everything.

In short: Institutionalized sexism.
posted by maxsparber at 12:16 PM on October 13, 2015 [83 favorites]


Didn't she get paid almost twice as much as Chris Pratt for Passengers?
posted by erin trouble at 12:17 PM on October 13, 2015


"until I saw the payroll on the Internet "

Can someone link to this leaked payroll she's referring to? Double plus brownie points if there's a link explaining what I'm looking at.
posted by dgaicun at 12:17 PM on October 13, 2015


"I submit to you that men and women are not the same, they like different things. Sometimes they like the same thing but sometimes their tastes diverge. If the Tomatometer is slighted so completely to one set of tastes, that drives box office in the United States, absolutely." - meryl streep discussed how gender imbalance in aggregation sites like rottentomatoes affects which movies people go to see.

i can see that also affecting salary negotiation.
posted by nadawi at 12:18 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


dgaicun, here's an article about the hack. Notable because it describes Charlize Theron as boldly negotiating a higher salary for herself! But then noting that actually, her agents did all the negotiating.

""Charlize insisted that she get paid the same money as Chris. She has a great track record, so she got the same deal," one source told PageSix. Another insider added: "One knock-on effect from the Sony hacking scandal is that there will be more sensitivity about equal pay for actresses and hiring practices at movie studios."

PageSix reports that Theron got a deal worth more than $10 million, the same as Hemsworth's, thanks to negotiations by her agents at WME."
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:21 PM on October 13, 2015


Mod note: A few comments deleted. If you're inclined to come in here and say "probably she's wrong", please just don't. It's just picking a fight and isn't going to lead to any kind of conversation we want to have - please just pass this thread by.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:21 PM on October 13, 2015 [18 favorites]


In short: Institutionalized sexism.

That's what I was getting at. It seems like Lawrence is blaming herself (and taking responsibility) for a structural problem. The solution seems like it needs to be deeper than telling women to be more assertive negotiators.
posted by straight at 12:24 PM on October 13, 2015


Mod note: Couple more deleted; the same applies if you feel like "who cares, she makes so much anyway". If you feel like "who cares", that's fine but again, please just skip the thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:25 PM on October 13, 2015 [15 favorites]


Actually, she's mostly not blaming herself. She's talking more about the perceptions and expectations that prevent women from doing business the way men do. But it seems like the wage-disparity gap is still deeper than that.
posted by straight at 12:26 PM on October 13, 2015


I have a friend who is a TV actress. Her agent does almost nothing for her -- her manager gets her almost all the jobs, and then the agent steps in to address the contract, and, if she doesn't like it, he panics and says, well, that's what they are offering.

There probably are some ruthless agents out there who push for the best amount of money their talent can get. But there are an awful lot of agents who desperately need their 10 percent and hope this doesn't get all bogged down and instead the checks get cut quickly.
posted by maxsparber at 12:26 PM on October 13, 2015 [29 favorites]




i think the wage gap (all over, not just hollywood) is explained by a bunch of factors that are related in a bunch of ways - i don't think you can simply say it's xyz and not abc, but i also don't think that talking about how part of it is xyz is ignoring abc, even if abc is not explicitly mentioned.
posted by nadawi at 12:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Some comments here are running perilously close to "surely this is all in her head, because surely female actresses are never punished for the requests made through their male proxies, nor are they regularly lampooned in the press for actions taken by their male proxies".

Indeed, but as long as they're issued out from under a veneer of plausible deniability, there's always going to be a JAQ-related defense against accusations of being (at best) willfully ignorant of how misogyny can indeed manifest in ways that fall short of standing on top of a building with a megaphone and yelling, "she's a stupid lying liar, and hysterical to boot!"
Could there still be a lingering habit of trying to express our opinions in a certain way that doesn't "offend" or "scare" men?
Well, yeah. As a class, girls are quite literally programmed to sublimate their own needs, just as boys are programmed to prioritize and universalize theirs, from birth. On top of that, girls and women are well-served by acknowledgment of the fact that far beyond being accused of being aggressive or bitchy simply for openly expressing their own opinions, they might well find themselves on the receiving end of physical and psychological violence (up to and including, say, having your private photographs stolen and then published without your consent) for "offending" or "scaring" the wrong man. As a bonus, you can never tell which man is the wrong man until after the switch gets flipped.
posted by divined by radio at 12:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [25 favorites]


> In short: Institutionalized sexism.

No kidding.

The wage gap isn't going anywhere until the dignity gap disappears.
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 12:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


But there are an awful lot of agents who desperately need their 10 percent and hope this doesn't get all bogged down and instead the checks get cut quickly.

There are perverse incentives here which may not be well understood. An agent wants a) to get the most money for the least effort/time possible; and b) to be able to do that for as many clients as possible. Sure they could squeeze hard for one client, but that would take a while and, maybe more importantly, might get them a rep for being difficult with their buyers, and risk future commissions.

So many agents, particularly the low and middle end ones, have a strong incentive to just get a deal done, any deal, the deal which least angers their true source of income, the studio system. Their clients' interests are third in line (agent, studio, then client).

Same sort of perverse reasoning that causes selling real estate agents to low-ball house prices.
posted by bonehead at 12:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


In short: Institutionalized sexism.

That's what I was getting at. It seems like Lawrence is blaming herself (and taking responsibility) for a structural problem. The solution seems like it needs to be deeper than telling women to be more assertive negotiators.


Money does not change its mind based on societal factors. Plus the only way the institutional basis for this happening gets changed is people being assertive and saying fuck that to anyone who says anything. No amount of cajoling or shaming does it. You have to challenge. You have to get on the bus and say no when asked to move to the back.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


" As a bonus, you can never tell which man is the wrong man until after the switch gets flipped"

^^^^QFT
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:06 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


What is the bus in this metaphor?
posted by griphus at 1:19 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


The wage gap is particularly galling given how much shorter Jennifer Lawrence's career is likely to be than, say, Bradley Cooper. Cooper is fifteen years older than Lawrence. In fifteen years, Jennifer Lawrence will be playing someone's mother for a fraction of what she's fighting to command now. In fifteen years, Cooper will still be cast opposite an actress who is Lawrence's current age.
posted by gladly at 1:20 PM on October 13, 2015 [85 favorites]


Ironmouth: You have to get on the bus and say no when asked to move to the back.

Sure, all women have to do to achieve equality in our time is be more assertive.

*eyeroll*
posted by zarq at 1:20 PM on October 13, 2015 [54 favorites]


As mentioned by Mrs. Pterodactyl, a major problem is that it's not just a matter of women needing to being more forceful/assertive/aggressive/etc in salary negotiations. There's this catch 22 where women will often get penalized for negotiating "like a man."

This bias has been shown in some psych studies. This New Yorker article discusses this issue and references, among other things, this paper (warning: link will open as pdf). From the abstract:

Male evaluators penalized female candidates more than male candidates for initiating negotiations

So this all muddies the waters even more.

I am glad to see women like Jennifer Lawrence, who have a lot of visibility, bringing attention to this issue. One of the first steps in fighting institutionalized sexism (or racism, or other isms) is by drawing attention to them.

Also, I think Jennifer Lawrence has a great sense of humor and overall seems like an awesome person, and I too would like to be her best friend.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:22 PM on October 13, 2015 [16 favorites]


Ironmouth, I guess I was thinking that in this case it seemed change might depend more on hiring a better agent than screwing up one's courage to be more assertive in interpersonal relationships. Although I guess the decision to hire a better agent could be one form of that assertiveness.

I think it's also worthwhile for everyone to keep making a public fuss about the disparity in terms of what kind of behavior is acceptable for women. Like any cognitive bias, knowing you have a tendency to react differently to assertive women than you do to assertive men is the first step toward seeing the world more accurately. (On preview, what litera scripta manet said.)

Men who can't make good business decisions because they can't deal rationally with women need to be shamed. Men who are too fragile to take criticism from a woman unless it's wrapped in obsequious politeness need to be shamed. Men who let their mommy issues or whatever prevent them from recognizing a good idea when a woman says it need to be shamed.
posted by straight at 1:28 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


What is the bus in this metaphor?

Saying what you mean and asking for what you want while accepting that some people are not going to be ok with it and will think negatively of you. Only by doing the thing that brings on disapproval will you get some of these people to be ok with it.

Naturally some people are already fine with this. Some are not. Some of the people who are not will change their minds once they witness what is happening and realize they are ok with the feared reality.

Let us be real. In the US, people are allowed to think as they please. You cannot force acceptance of behavior upon others. Its impossible. You can try and change the society, but that will require the stepping forward and doing what needs to be done. But it is critical to understand that you will never change the minds of every person and at that point you have to accept that those people will not change.

But the idea that somehow you can make people who discriminate feel shamed or guilty enough that you won't have to be assertive to get what you want is fantasy. These attitudes are never changed with shame or guilt. The best case scenario is that you reduce some of the reactions of some of the people (both male and female) by showing them that you are going to do it and that their disapproval will never be enough.

But in the end, in my experience in many different employment negotiations, management and the money side is never, ever going to give you what you want unless you ask for it. Standing around and waiting for that to happen is incredibly counter-productive.

And it isn't exclusive to women, either. There are many people who do not assert themselves and do not get what they want. And often times, asserting what you want gets you crap no matter who or what you are. The thing is men are trained to assert themselves in commercial situations and women are not. My guess is that men and women get turned off by women asserting themselves because they are not used to it happening more than anything else. People accept men behaving this way because such training goes way back.

We will have to change the way we teach our children. They have to know that whoever you are, you can ask for what you want and that its okay to do that. And that some people are not going to be ok with that for whatever reason, but that the fact that someone else is not okay with you asserting yourself is not reason enough for you to not ask for what you want.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:32 PM on October 13, 2015


You have to get on the bus and say no when asked to move to the back.

Rosa Parks broke the law, not an unspoken but powerful social convention. She did so in protest of that law. Moreover, she didn't act alone, but as part of a larger protest campaign against the larger edifice of Southern segregation. Individual women taking a more assertive line in their individual salary negotiations (which negotiations are a pretty faint prospect if you belong to the working class) bear only the faintest resemblance to that kind of protest. Collective problems need collective solutions.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [20 favorites]


Men who can't make good business decisions because they can't deal rationally with women need to be shamed. Men who are too fragile to take criticism from a woman unless it's wrapped in obsequious politeness need to be shamed. Men who let their mommy issues or whatever prevent them from recognizing a good idea when a woman says it need to be shamed.

This has never worked against bigots. Ever. Only time and experiencing the feared condition of the other getting and using power will do that.

Ironmouth, I guess I was thinking that in this case it seemed change might depend more on hiring a better agent than screwing up one's courage to be more assertive in interpersonal relationships. Although I guess the decision to hire a better agent could be one form of that assertiveness.

Based on what Ms. Lawrence said, I do not thing that is the problem and I think her solution is the best one.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:35 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Women are very much conditioned to be constantly solicitous of men.

I suggest women adopt a bold social experiment I have taken on where I do not apologize to people who are actively insulting me. So, when some guy is mansplaining or otherwise patronizing me, or trying to defraud or gaslight me, I don't try to smooth it over for him. I don't apologize or tell him it's OK or understandable, that it's a reasonable mistake that anyone could have made or whatever.

I can get away with doing that to other women sometimes (of course, then, I'm being catty), but if I do that to a man, he or someone else will often accuse me of being rude or condescending, on the assumption that I obviously wouldn't want to be insulting toward someone who was explicitly insulting me. Hell, I once had a guy whom I had just pretty flatly called an asshole tell me that I didn't seem like a fun person to hang out with. Because obviously, that's what's really important. That assholes think I'm fun.

If you fail to treat a man like a delicate little hothouse flower, by smoothing over awkward or hostile situations or by failing to sufficiently praise and encourage him, fingers will wag.

If it's considered rude and aggressive not to apologize to someone who is directly insulting you, imagine how people perceive women actively defending their interests.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [26 favorites]


Speaking up immediately cost Rose McGowan her agent.

There's a lot more to it than just refusing to be treated badly. Hollywood is a town with long expertise in blacklists.
posted by maxsparber at 1:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [42 favorites]


Like, if you're a dude and you feel like you know more about Jennifer Lawrence's job than she does, or that you have a unique insight into what all or most women are doing wrong.... Just don't, okay?
posted by shakespeherian at 1:36 PM on October 13, 2015 [45 favorites]


We will have to change the way we teach our children. They have to know that whoever you are, you can ask for what you want and that its okay to do that. And that some people are not going to be ok with that for whatever reason, but that the fact that someone else is not okay with you asserting yourself is not reason enough for you to not ask for what you want.

OK, so all we need to do to achieve pay equity is... dismantle the patriarchy. Sounds simple enough, I'm just amazed no one had ever thought of it before.
posted by divined by radio at 1:37 PM on October 13, 2015 [52 favorites]


Collective problems need collective solutions.

If only there were an actors' guild or something. Equal pay for work of equal value is more than a little bit of a union mantra in my neck of of the woods. And it has worked too.
posted by bonehead at 1:39 PM on October 13, 2015


Sounds simple enough, I'm just amazed no one had ever thought of it before.

Next on the agenda: fixing our nation's schools. Has anyone asked the parents to take responsibility? Probably not. Problem solved.
posted by griphus at 1:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [17 favorites]


I find that as a society, we have socialized women to care a lot more about what other people think in the workplace. It consistently holds them back.

Yeah, and that's all part of the patriarchy what needs smashed, but

Our girls should be taught to say what Ms. Lawrence does in her very next sentence: Fuck that.

I expect that in real life, in our society, this is mostly just a recipe for unemployed women. And, in contexts beyond employment, murdered ones.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


straight: Men who can't make good business decisions because they can't deal rationally with women need to be shamed.

There might be a rational explanation to this behavior:
Why Interacting with a Woman Can Leave Men "Cognitively Impaired"
posted by erin trouble at 1:46 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mod note: Several replies to, and the original, comment deleted. Please refresh the thread, folks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:48 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


My wife had a "funny" story about a workplace where a new academic hire negotiated hard for a good salary. She made her case and got it. They then instantly bumped up the salary of the male new hire who hadn't negotiated at all because it would be wrong for him to be paid less. Yet they consistently hired women at lower salaries alongside men before and since.

It isn't just women needing to lift themselves up.
posted by srboisvert at 1:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [29 favorites]


Ironmouth: You have to get on the bus and say no when asked to move to the back.

Sure, all women have to do to achieve equality in our time is be more assertive.


yes, stop the presses everyone! a man has solved sexism forever!
posted by poffin boffin at 1:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [33 favorites]


One of the first steps in fighting institutionalized sexism (or racism, or other isms) is by drawing attention to them.

Effie Brown, Rose McGowan, and Other Rad Ladies Call Out Hollywood’s Lack of Diversity: “This Is Clearly No Longer Okay”
posted by homunculus at 1:55 PM on October 13, 2015


It isn't just women needing to lift themselves up.

And as long as women are consistently punished, and men consistently lauded, for standing up for themselves and their own best interests (financial or otherwise), it never will be. But even if every woman on earth suddenly decided, "You know what? To hell with my career, to hell with my family, to hell with my reputation, I'm gonna say 'fuck you, pay me' no matter what," it STILL wouldn't be a matter of women needing to lift themselves up because they're STILL not going to be the ones calling the shots or holding the purse strings.

Because as a class, at least until we get over that whole pesky 'patriarchy' thing, men are STILL going to make more money and hold more positions of authority and power than women, and that's not even touching on any other axes of oppression. Which is how we get so many dudes unironically saying shit like, "Only casting hot young white women as leads has nothing to do with misogyny or racism -- it's just the free market at work!"
posted by divined by radio at 2:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [23 favorites]


Hey, previously.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:25 PM on October 13, 2015


But there are an awful lot of agents who desperately need their 10 percent and hope this doesn't get all bogged down and instead the checks get cut quickly.

This shouldn't really surprise anyone who's dealt with agents who represent people other than actors. Two random data points - I've had friends who were writers complain similarly about their agents not fighting for them, and of course many people have horror stories about real estate agents more interested in speedy house closings than in bargaining well for the buyer they represent. And let's not even get into investment agents.
posted by aught at 2:33 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Like, if you're a dude and you feel like you know more about Jennifer Lawrence's job than she does, or that you have a unique insight into what all or most women are doing wrong.... Just don't, okay?

Even when I agree with her and you do not?

Respectfully, no. I represent people in employment disputes and litigation for a living. My experience, is, quite frankly, greater than Ms. Lawrence, although I agree with her assessment. I actually am on the inside of dozens of employment negotiations per year. I see how people react. And I find it disheartening when clients do not stand up for themselves. Also, I don't get the liberty to shame anyone. My clients have a current employment dispute. They don't get the luxury of waiting until society changes they have to negotiate this deal right now. And they are harned when they also want to not offend anyone. This is the thing--these are real people who have to make decisions now. So they must assert themselves right now. And, in this context, Jennifer Lawrence is right. They are only helped by ignoring negative reactions. They cannot wait for society to catch up.
posted by Ironmouth at 2:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Theatrical market statistics for 2013: Women already buy 50% of all movie tickets, so why bother paying female performers more? Also, demographics highest for Caucasian 29 to 35 year old, but decreasing.
posted by erin trouble at 2:43 PM on October 13, 2015


Ironmouth: And I find it disheartening when clients do not stand up for themselves. Also, I don't get the liberty to shame anyone. My clients have a current employment dispute. They don't get the luxury of waiting until society changes they have to negotiate this deal right now. And they are harned when they also want to not offend anyone. This is the thing--these are real people who have to make decisions now. So they must assert themselves right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that your clients are in law enforcement. By definition they have positions of authority in society. They also presumably belong to a union, which allows them to negotiate as a group. Because of this, they are operating from a position of privilege in two ways.

Actresses do not enjoy the privilege that comes with a job that society has judged to be essential, such as law enforcement. If actors go on strike, SAG-AFTRA cannot effectively appeal to the public the way police unions often do, effectively announcing that if their demands are not met, crime rates will rise and personal safety will be endangered. That lack of privilege defines the level of their negotiating strength when demanding raises.

Women have consistently lagged behind in pay for acting and writing for years. Percentage-wise, they still join the union guild in lower numbers than men.

I may be wrong, but for these reasons, I believe your professional experience with law enforcement personnel does not apply to actresses.
posted by zarq at 3:10 PM on October 13, 2015 [17 favorites]


Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that your clients are in law enforcement. By definition they have positions of authority in society. They also presumably belong to a union, which allows them to negotiate as a group. Because of this, they are operating from a position of privilege in two ways.

Many of them are. But I represent private employees as well and it is their experience I am talking about here. The LE side involves LE-specific issues and pay is set by contract or law. So I am talking private employees and applicants for employment in the context of the post. I have tons more experience negotiating for women employees than even Ms. Lawrence, although she is exactly right. Women today involved in current disputes have to stand up now. No one else will do it for them and it is completely stupid for them not to do it. The idea that women should not be assertive now to assert their rights now because it is the fault of our social system is completely insane to me. As is the idea that we should not teach our girls to do it right now because they need it now, not later.

Frankly, management's position is going to be low-ball everyone regardless of sex. This is about the consequences of not going along. Women don't have time at this very moment to not do something because some men are going to act negatively towards them. There is no reason not to assert yourself. There are a lot of things about some mens' reaction to that that can make that difficult, but that change is not going to happen within the context of a single negotiation. The only thing you can do in that situation is to say, "I am certain you don't mean to imply that my Client is wrong for asserting her rights here." But I don't get to shame negotiation partners because that harms the client, not helps.

I am not saying that women are anymore the cause of this then men--these are cultural issues that take a long time to work out--women don't have the time or luxury to do nothing because they are waiting around for society to catch up.

Ms. Lawrence is exactly right and I sure hope that she doesn't get attacked for telling the truth about what happened and what she could have done to improve her paycheck for the film in question. I agree with her 100%.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:24 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


No one else will do it for them and it is completely stupid for them not to do it. The idea that women should not be assertive now to assert their rights now because it is the fault of our social system is completely insane to me


I get that you want women to stand up and fight. Some women (like myself) don't want to do that anymore. I'm fucking tired of it. That I, or they, do not want to fight on a man's turf does make they, or myself completely stupid or completely insane. It makes us sick of the bullshit.
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:34 PM on October 13, 2015 [24 favorites]


Women today involved in current disputes have to stand up now.

Yes. And the point you are blatantly ignoring is what happens when they do. Often enough that it clearly demonstrates the existence of systemic and institutional sexism.

Exhibit A: AskMe from January 22, 2015

Bitch in Business

Metafilter feminists help me out! I an trying to compile a list of things that only ambitious women get to hear as they fight their way into management. Things like "you sound too abrasive". But also getting ignored in a specific way. I would like these to be things someone has actually said to you or someone you know. Can you help me?
posted by Omnomnom to Human Relations (215 answers total)

posted by soundguy99 at 3:43 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


Suspicion: Mansplaining would be more tolerable if it weren't so verbose.
posted by shakespeherian at 3:50 PM on October 13, 2015 [21 favorites]


i agree with this person but first here are 10 paragraphs about how much smarter i am then they are
posted by poffin boffin at 3:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [28 favorites]


Frankly, management's position is going to be low-ball everyone regardless of sex.

My earlier anecdata belies this claim. In at least that one case sexist management was willing to voluntarily increase a man's pay, without even being requested, if they are threatened with a male employee of equal status being paid less than a woman.
posted by srboisvert at 3:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Men earnestly calling women "stupid" and "insane" for failing to cast off our already-tenuous, likely hard-won grasp on our careers and livelihoods in hopes that men will just magically up and decide to bless us with sweet, sweet cash and power instead of disdain, hostility, or actual violence is pretty amazing to me. It takes a whole lot of outright dismissing the many, many women who have (assertively!) said, "hey, I tried that, and it really fucked me over" to reach that level of willful ignorance.

I'm not actually sure what's more insulting: That men actually believe women's lack of assertiveness is the main thing holding us back as a class, or that they actually believe we don't/won't/can't possibly suffer any meaningful consequences for being perceived as remotely assertive bitchy and arrogant. I guess they think that if men keep telling women what to do while calling us crazy for failing to heed their dudely instructions, society will be able to relegate sexism to the dustbin of history in no time, because the real problem has always been that women are too stupid to have thought of the solution yet.
posted by divined by radio at 3:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [70 favorites]


Women today involved in current disputes have to stand up now. No one else will do it for them and it is completely stupid for them not to do it. The idea that women should not be assertive now to assert their rights now because it is the fault of our social system is completely insane to me.

Did you completely miss the part of her statement where she says that she feels comfortable saying "fuck that" now that she has two successful franchises bringing in boatloads of money? The fact that many women do not have the luxury of standing up for themselves? That maybe women know more about how to handle their own lives and evaluate their available options than a stranger, particularly a male stranger? That maybe it seems "insane" to you because you're not a woman?
posted by melissasaurus at 3:57 PM on October 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


That men actually believe women's lack of assertiveness is the main thing holding us back as a class, or that they actually believe we don't/won't/can't possibly suffer any meaningful consequences for being perceived as remotely assertive bitchy and arrogant.

But it worked for me, and I'm a man!
posted by shakespeherian at 4:00 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Mr. Owl, how far into an argument with a number of women on What Women Should Do does a dude realize the infuriating condescension of his statements?
posted by griphus at 4:03 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


Frankly, management's position is going to be low-ball everyone regardless of sex.

And the floor for that low-ball is lower for women than it is for men.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:26 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Mod note: Ironmouth, once again, you are not here to defend your professional reputation. If that's what you find yourself doing in a thread, you're approaching the thread wrong from the start. Please stop. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:26 PM on October 13, 2015 [22 favorites]


I get that people are super angry, and also that Ironmouth may not have things framed quite perfectly. Most of the anger, though, is really for people who don't see that there's a problem, or those who think that women who don't speak up somehow don't "deserve" to be paid more -- like that unfortunately-well-known Sony exec.
posted by amtho at 4:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I find that as a society, we have socialized women to care a lot more about what other people think in the workplace. It consistently holds them back. Our girls should be taught to say what Ms. Lawrence does in her very next sentence: Fuck that.

So, not caring about what other people think in the workplace is a virtue now? If other people are being assholes and succeeding with that, the lesson is that you should be an asshole too, right?

Again and again, the best career advice I've received has been to ask myself--when I feel timid or unsure how to proceed in a prickly situation--"What would a dude do?"

You mean a very particular kind of dude, right? Presumably an asshole who doesn't care what other people at work think. Because "a dude" certainly does not represent every other dude.

I think how nice it must be to live like that full-time. WWDD at work and home.

TELL ME AGAIN HOW FUCKING "NICE" IT IS TO LIVE FULL-TIME AS A MAN. I DARE YOU. I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:44 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm picturing Samuel L. Jackson here.

Jules: Say 'what' again. Say 'what' again, I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker, say what one more Goddamn time!
posted by Justinian at 4:52 PM on October 13, 2015


So, not caring about what other people think in the workplace is a virtue now? If other people are being assholes and succeeding with that, the lesson is that you should be an asshole too, right?

Whether it is a virtue or not is another issue. It is what you have to do when negotiating your salary, and women get shamed for it. You have to do it if you want to have a higher salary. You don't have to do it. But Jennifer Lawrence is saying she wants to do it and NOT get shamed for it, just like men do.
posted by ignignokt at 4:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I literally just smashed something and made a mess. Apparently this is not a good day for me to discuss gender.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:54 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


You have to do it if you want to have a higher salary. You don't have to do it. But Jennifer Lawrence is saying she wants to do it and NOT get shamed for it, just like men do.

I think, without having seen a bunch of the deleted comments so those may have changed my impression if I had seen them, that the pushback Ironmouth got is that he emphasized the first part of that equation while glossing over the second.

Yes, it's important to be assertive when negotiating because the other side sure isn't going to volunteer to fork over their own cash out of the goodness of their hearts. But when women are viewed negatively for doing that while men are viewed positively there is a big problem. You can't ignore the second part and then be like "but what I said is true!". Yes, it's true, but it's not complete. Lawrence can get away with being assertive despite the sexist attitudes towards that because she is Jennifer Lawrence. Mary from Accounting doesn't have that juice.
posted by Justinian at 5:02 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


It is what you have to do when negotiating your salary, and women get shamed for it. You have to do it if you want to have a higher salary. You don't have to do it. But Jennifer Lawrence is saying she wants to do it and NOT get shamed for it, just like men do.

Exactly. It is the extra piece that women are sadly, going to have to bear while we work out a new way of looking at gender. My point is that women cannot wait and will have to storm these hills now, without waiting because they are involved in salary negotiations every day and that while we teach our young men to respect women's rights to assert themselves, we are going to have to teach women that they cannot wait for the boys to catch up because they are in the situation right now.

That is precisely Ms. Lawrence's point and she is exactly right.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:05 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


We will have to change the way we teach our children. They have to know that whoever you are, you can ask for what you want and that its okay to do that. And that some people are not going to be ok with that for whatever reason,

this plan is missing the crucial "teach them to treat women fairly and not screw them over when they ask for what they want" part.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:07 PM on October 13, 2015 [9 favorites]


There is no reason not to assert yourself.

I'm here to tell you there most definitely is. Because after numerous instances of me asserting myself in the workplace and getting roundly smacked down (which has negatively affected me in multiple ways) I'm not really into sticking my neck out for the cause as much anymore. Because remaining nice and compliant is much more likely to allow me to continue to pay my mortgage than asserting myself is. And I know a hell of a lot of other women who feel the same way. It's totally depressing.

At this point, and with the experiences I've had under my belt, I get a little prickly when people suggest that I need to do more to battle the misogyny that hurts me directly. And at this point, I am much more likely to reject that notion altogether and go with the idea that the only real way to make some real changes is to place the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of men. In fact, I'm pretty much convinced that it's not possible to make these changes unless men do a significant part of the work, due to all the deeply ingrained sexism that women face that pretty much penalizes them no matter what the hell they do. For men, it's just not as hard as it is for women.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:11 PM on October 13, 2015 [20 favorites]


Hollywood is not run by super-rational capitalism robots. It's run by humans, and at the highest levels, it's run by humans who are often very acclimated to a male-dominated environment. And that environment affects their perceptions in super-irrational ways. They see a lot of men in power and a lot of women who aren't, and that affects the way they perceive people. So they make very different assumptions about men and women, to the point that behaviors that would be seen as totally normal and reasonable on the part of men can be seen as asocial and greedy when women do them.

I've heard plenty of stories about female actors being torpedoed by being labeled demanding and difficult to work with, but for men to be labeled that way seems to require something more like real violence. What is the male equivalent to the colloquial diva? (I know divo, but I have never heard it used in the colloquial sense.) Why is the constellation of behaviors associated with being a 'diva' feminized? RHETORICAL QUESTION, it's feminized because those behaviors are only viewed negatively when they are feminized.

This isn't about being violent or antisocial. That happens, but I'm pretty sure nobody is advocating women do that. It's about negotiating and protecting your interests without being demonized for it. And, of course, it's not unique to Hollywood, either, so even if you don't care whether a rich female actor gets richer, it still matters if she's not getting richer because she's a woman.
posted by ernielundquist at 5:13 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


This is amazing to me, because it's never been clearer that women literally can't win. Don't get paid enough? It's naturally because I'm too timid to negotiate. Hire people whose job is literally to negotiate the best deal possible for me? I *still* either don't get paid as much as my male coworkers or I get a reputation for being difficult, bitchy, a ball-buster, too masculine, etc etc.

And this is *STILL* something I should feel individually guilty about!
posted by muddgirl at 5:14 PM on October 13, 2015 [11 favorites]


My point is that women cannot wait and will have to storm these hills now, without waiting because they are involved in salary negotiations every day and that while we teach our young men to respect women's rights to assert themselves, we are going to have to teach women that they cannot wait for the boys to catch up because they are in the situation right now.

How do you propose women actually procure raises from the men who are currently content with paying us less, exactly? You think men are paying us less because our lack of assertiveness lets them them get away with it -- fine. So let's say we all drop everything and go for the brass ring at once, and our bosses (assuming they don't just fire us and hire someone who doesn't make such a fuss) are still like, "Yeah, no, don't wanna." How do we actually get the money? We need concrete solutions here. Are we supposed to hold them at gunpoint or something? Bear in mind that we're the same people you've already referred to as stupid and insane, so we're obviously going to need this explained to us step-by-step.

It's really wearying, being told that we need to lay down our lives and rush to the barricades every hour of every day so we can (I guess) force men in positions of power and influence to give us our duly-earned cash and treat us like regular human beings instead of dumb, delicate lady-people.
posted by divined by radio at 5:15 PM on October 13, 2015 [19 favorites]


It is the extra piece that women are sadly, going to have to bear while we work out a new way of looking at gender. My point is that women cannot wait and will have to storm these hills now, without waiting because they are involved in salary negotiations every day and that while we teach our young men to respect women's rights to assert themselves, we are going to have to teach women that they cannot wait for the boys to catch up because they are in the situation right now.

I kinda doubt that any of this comes as a startling revelation to women, though? So maybe there are large reasons women aren't already doing this which you are ignoring because you can? I think that implicit condescension is why you are getting a lot of pushback?
posted by shakespeherian at 5:20 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


I'm picturing Samuel L. Jackson here.

Well, sure, that was the intention, before everything went all red and I got smash-y.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:20 PM on October 13, 2015


I guess I'm confused, and I'm hesitant to participate in a discussion in which everyone is yelling and I am confused, but: Is anyone arguing women – especially women in Jennifer Lawrence's position – should be encouraged to be assertive in salary negotiation instead of pushing for a change in men's terrible attitudes?

Because Jennifer Lawrence and other top-level professionals can do both without impeding either effort. In fact, her doing this may help in some small way to socialize some young people to not shame women for negotiating effectively.
posted by ignignokt at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2015


Men who can't make good business decisions because they can't deal rationally with women need to be shamed.

Screwing over labor is rational. It's just shitty.
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:26 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Apparently the men are all super-busy in the back room making something called 'feminism' for all the ladies. If you holler loud enough and kick up a fuss, one of them will come out and give you the stink-eye as they explain they have Important Work and you're such a spoiled drama queen and ugh, here's half the solution to your problem and if you can't figure out the rest on your own maybe you didn't want to solve the problem anyway.

At least, I think that's the gist.
posted by mikurski at 5:30 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


from vice:

A recent study published in the journal Law and Human Behavior shows that angry women are less likely to wield influence over others, while the inverse is true for their upset male counterparts. According to the study's abstract, researchers set up a deception paradigm in which participants "believed they were engaged in a computer-mediated mock jury deliberation about a murder case."

posted by sebastienbailard at 5:31 PM on October 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


I was responding to other posters and not Lawrence. I don't really care about Lawrence, but if celebrities are going to be paid obscene amounts of money it's only right female celebrities should get as grossly wealthy as the male ones do.

I wasn't kidding about the smashing or about being in no state for a discussion like this. I'll show myself out.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:31 PM on October 13, 2015


This is amazing to me, because it's never been clearer that women literally can't win. Don't get paid enough? It's naturally because I'm too timid to negotiate. Hire people whose job is literally to negotiate the best deal possible for me? I *still* either don't get paid as much as my male coworkers or I get a reputation for being difficult, bitchy, a ball-buster, too masculine, etc etc.

Not only this, but don't forget that if you, as a woman, just decide to quietly support and advocate for other women as your way of trying to make a small difference, you're still penalized! Heads, you lose! Tails? Still a loser! Anything else? YOU ALWAYS FUCKING LOSE.
posted by triggerfinger at 5:32 PM on October 13, 2015 [14 favorites]


And at this point, I am much more likely to reject that notion altogether and go with the idea that the only real way to make some real changes is to place the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of men.

Yes! We're the ones behaving like assholes, it's on us to fix it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:38 PM on October 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


The problem with bringing experience as a lawyer into this discussion is that experience is with situations where it's *an already adversarial setting* (a "dispute" at a minimum). So maybe, maybe you can say, yeah, in this circumstance where lawyers are already involved women could be more assertive and that's part of the solution because the situation is already to that point. And possibly(?) there will be a neutral party (judge, jury, mediator) involved as well to keep at least the appearance of fairness intact.

But when we're talking about the negotiating process for getting a new job, the answer when you ask for more salary may very well be more than "nope," it may be "nope and you know what we've decided to go with the other candidate." One party has all of the power and the female job candidate has none. It's not the same.
posted by misskaz at 5:59 PM on October 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


^ This.

Let me tell you how frosty certain men got in a past job because I dared to advocate for myself and toot my own horn, instead of sitting quietly and praying for table scraps. How my "assertiveness" got quickly twisted into "aggression." AND I'm Black? Girl.

So many marginalized folks try to stand up for themselves and get smacked down in return. We're not getting penalized because we don't know how to stand up for ourselves, we're getting penalized because we dare to know our own worth and defend it.
posted by Ashen at 6:17 PM on October 13, 2015 [40 favorites]


At this point, and with the experiences I've had under my belt, I get a little prickly when people suggest that I need to do more to battle the misogyny that hurts me directly. And at this point, I am much more likely to reject that notion altogether and go with the idea that the only real way to make some real changes is to place the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of men.

95% agreed, except that the patriarchy isn't just men. It's very thorny for women to advocate for themselves, and it can even be thorny to actively promote and advocate for other women, but women do need to keep a check on their own double standards and stop policing other women. And that type of thing happens a lot in male dominated environments where women often have to male identify and be extra accommodating just to blend in and be accepted.

So that's a little part of it too.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:19 PM on October 13, 2015


Women are socialized to be timid. Is it any shock that we become prey in so many situations? We, and all our girls, must be fierce!

Is that who I am, or what I honestly have the energy for? No. I guess I need it do it anyway, though. Kinda like periods; you don't have to like it, you just have to take care of it.
posted by irisclara at 6:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"being disliked actually has a really big effect on both personal and professional aspects of your life."

Oh hells yes. Ever noticed how there's something about being a woman that just makes a lot of people foam at the mouth and start attacking instantly? Not being liked risks or possibly ends your life, for fuck's sake.

I submit to everyone, I apologize out the wazoo for existing, I sure as hell don't confront anyone or object to things because it's a terrifying risk and highly likely to make things worse. But I'm a peon and always will be. Jennifer Lawrence, however, has a brief window of time where she's the most powerful chick around--and even she feels like she has to be nice and stay safe.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


95% agreed, except that the patriarchy isn't just men. It's very thorny for women to advocate for themselves, and it can even be thorny to actively promote and advocate for other women, but women do need to keep a check on their own double standards and stop policing other women. And that type of thing happens a lot in male dominated environments where women often have to male identify and be extra accommodating just to blend in and be accepted.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out, I totally agree. It's something I strive for almost every day when I'm dealing with other women. Because I too can still have the kneejerk reaction that a woman who speaks up is being "bossy" or whatever. At this point, I think I'm pretty aware of it and it's still sometimes my kneejerk reaction, because gender roles are so deeply baked into our society and psyches (in my opinion) that most of us don't even really notice the depths of it. Which is part of what makes me so depressed about the whole thing - because I think I'm more aware of this stuff than the majority of people who surround me and if it still happens to me, how deeply ingrained is it in the minds (and behaviors) of people who aren't as aware or who don't even really care that much?

Whenever my kneejerk reaction to another woman is negative, I always examine it more closely. And I find that the more I do this, the less prone I am to having these kneejerk reactions to begin with. And I always give women the benefit of the doubt, to the point of probably overcorrecting at times in the past. But if I'm not clear on whether my reaction to anything is fair or if it's my own internalized sexism, I'd rather err on the side of women, because I know how hard it is for all of us.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


There's a longstanding joke in enterprise software sales that list prices are so crazy high because there's always - ALWAYS - a purchasing person whose job it is to get 25% off the list price. Like companies literally can't buy the most critical software in the world without getting a discount.

So you just make the list price 20% higher. And that person gets to get a 25% discount every time.


Healthcare, too, but nobody's laughing.
posted by SLC Mom at 6:56 PM on October 13, 2015


Lawrence can get away with being assertive despite the sexist attitudes towards that because she is Jennifer Lawrence.

Her willingness to say important things directly and clearly (and while using the word "fuck") is a major part of why I am so impressed with her, along with her being one of the best actresses currently working.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:40 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


My earlier anecdata belies this claim. In at least that one case sexist management was willing to voluntarily increase a man's pay, without even being requested, if they are threatened with a male employee of equal status being paid less than a woman.

This happened to me constantly at a former job, in regards to promotions, raises, and outward recognitions of pecking order such as office space. Men with noticably less responsiblity got bumped up, without even asking, in order to stay above me every time I successfully negotiated another step up for myself.

This was at a midsize non-profit. A field more dominated by women than most. Sexism runs deeeeep.
posted by desuetude at 9:55 PM on October 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Sandberg’s definition of feminism begins and ends with the notion that it’s all about gender equality within the existing social system. From this perspective, the structures of imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy need not be challenged. And she makes it seem that privileged white men will eagerly choose to extend the benefits of corporate capitalism to white women who have the courage to ‘lean in.’ It almost seems as if Sandberg sees women’s lack of perseverance as more the problem than systemic inequality. -- from an article about Sheryl Sandberg's book Lean In. The article is rigorous and digs into the book, the ideas of patriarchy and intersectionality.

So, this version of the conversation happened in 2013. Can we stop having it yet and get to the part where we fix it?
posted by ladyriffraff at 10:35 PM on October 13, 2015


The author of the above piece is bell hooks. She is a great place to start if you haven't read extensively in the field.
posted by ladyriffraff at 10:37 PM on October 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hollywood is so messed up. It's one of few industries I can think of where it's better to be younger (for women, anyway--unless you're part of the select few who continue getting roles as they age). It doesn't put you in much of a position of power when your career erodes out from under you with each passing year. It's easy to say that women in film should walk away from bad compensation situations, but as with biology, women are dealing with a ticking clock that is not as much of a reality for men.

We could all help with this problem by being able to see and appreciate aspects of actresses that are more than skin deep. To Jennifer's point, it would also help if we weren't living with such a narrow definition of what it means to be a woman that some movie roles get defaulted to being male just because it seems like a better fit.
posted by mantecol at 12:13 AM on October 14, 2015


I guess I'm confused, and I'm hesitant to participate in a discussion in which everyone is yelling and I am confused, but: Is anyone arguing women – especially women in Jennifer Lawrence's position – should be encouraged to be assertive in salary negotiation instead of pushing for a change in men's terrible attitudes?

The argument was made upthread that the only way institutional sexism can possibly be changed is for women to be more assertive, which is offensively ridiculous.

Because Jennifer Lawrence and other top-level professionals can do both without impeding either effort. In fact, her doing this may help in some small way to socialize some young people to not shame women for negotiating effectively.

Yes.
posted by zarq at 3:12 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


There is no reason not to assert yourself.

Ehhhhh, at least in the context of this thread, do some reading up on the Megan Fox situation. According to some people, she was essentially blackballed after she called out Michael Bay for shitty comments/behavior, at least for a while. She went from tv shows and b list stuff, to Big Movies, to... the ninja turtles remake and like one tv show.

This is the sort of thing i've only seen happen on the sidelines, and to friends, and obviously on a much smaller scale... But it's pretty damn clear cut that if you're a man, and you stand up for yourself and do a bit of recon first it usually works. You're often even rewarded for "being aggressive" or "taking leadership" or whatever if it's in the workplace. Whereas even well liked women with allies and people otherwise on their side are just uppity or whatever and if they piss off the wrong person suddenly everyone on their side evaporates.

It can happen to anybody, from the cashier at starbucks to movie stars.
posted by emptythought at 4:35 AM on October 14, 2015 [13 favorites]


Men who can't make good business decisions because they can't deal rationally with women need to be shamed.

Screwing over labor is rational. It's just shitty.


Well, at a minimum, if Lawrence's agent failed to go after as much salary as Lawrence is actually worth because she's a woman, the fallacy of sexism caused that agent to made a bad business decision.

But in general, if studios are failing to recognize and reward the actual worth of women actors because of sexism, they're also making bad business decisions.

I strongly suspect studios are leaving money on the table by failing to hire excellent women actors, writers, and directors because of sexism. I suspect they are leaving money on the table because of sexist assumptions about what kinds of movies should be made. The industry seemed dumbfounded by the success of Bridesmaids, for instance ("There's a market for comedies written by and staring women? How could we have known?")
posted by straight at 9:17 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Let me tell you how frosty certain men got in a past job because I dared to advocate for myself and toot my own horn, instead of sitting quietly and praying for table scraps. How my "assertiveness" got quickly twisted into "aggression." AND I'm Black? Girl.

So many marginalized folks try to stand up for themselves and get smacked down in return. We're not getting penalized because we don't know how to stand up for ourselves, we're getting penalized because we dare to know our own worth and defend it.


And I think part of the response to this is to point out that sexism and racism are forms of weakness and stupidity. They are a cognitive fallacy that prevent businesses from accurately evaluating their employees.

If you want to surround yourself with the best people but have these kinds of irrational panic attacks when confronted with a competent black woman, you're letting your weakness prevent you from accomplishing that objective. You're failing to find the best people.
posted by straight at 9:30 AM on October 14, 2015


and of course many people have horror stories about real estate agents more interested in speedy house closings than in bargaining well for the buyer they represent.

Buyer's agents have a perverse incentive since they're paid on a percentage of sale price. A lower price means lower commission. It's only a few percent and they have a counter incentive in that if their buyer doesn't get the house then they get 0%, but it does mean it's in their interest to put someone in as expensive a house as possible.

Screwing over labor is rational. It's just shitty.

If you're going to make this as a general assertion then I will respond to it as a general assertion: no it's not rational. It's a short-term gain, yes, but causing pain in your employees is a losing proposition. There's an incentive to pay as little as is competitive just as there is an incentive for a worker to collect as much as is competitive. But screwing employees is just as bad employer-wise as it would be for a worker to lie/cheat to get into a job they cannot actually do. Eventually people bail / you get fired. If you can actually enforce an opaque situation you can get away with this longer but eventually truth will out.

Hollywood in specific has some offsetting things, though. These pay deals for big stars don't last forever and productions don't go on too long. You see in things like television - Friends is an example - how the people with power can broker better deals when the truth comes out and things shift. But movies are over and done in less time than a show that lasts long enough to get into syndication, so they can get away with shining someone on because it's over and done before they know better.

There's some chance that if you alienate a JLaw you're going to cause your outfit some problems but overall folks move on to the next one and there's a chance you won't deal with them again. Particularly when they is a younger female star that your industry will be kicking to the curb for the next model in five years. What are they going to to, refuse to play mom #4?
posted by phearlez at 10:29 AM on October 14, 2015


I strongly suspect studios are leaving money on the table by failing to hire excellent women actors, writers, and directors because of sexism. I suspect they are leaving money on the table because of sexist assumptions about what kinds of movies should be made. The industry seemed dumbfounded by the success of Bridesmaids, for instance ("There's a market for comedies written by and staring women? How could we have known?")

YES. And there's the other side too, where they'll throw money at things that make you question who was in the room when they decided to do that.

For example, unless there is a series of baroque machinations in place intended to fuck with Adam Sandler specifically, first someone decided to fund a vehicle for him that was so racist that a bunch of likely not wealthy actors walked off the set in protest. Then, someone else funded a big budget feature for him in which a woman is literally awarded as a prize for the protagonist. And this was in 2015, not 1902.

And, I mean, I'm almost kind of torn because both theories of how that happened strike me as pretty fantastical.

Either there is a huge, well-funded Hollywood conspiracy to fuck with Adam Sandler for some reason; or there were at least two rooms full of people in which a consensus was reached that these were good ideas that merited spending money on.

But until I see some compelling evidence for the former, I'm going to operate on the assumption that this is the result of an incompetence of white guys.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:31 AM on October 14, 2015 [4 favorites]




effie brown discusses project greenlight, being a black woman in a room of white men, matt damon, end runs around hierachy, and fighting to be heard
"Was I fabulous, always in the right? Heck no. I did a good job. I'm not a man. That’s the thing. I've never been anything other than a black woman. I learned what I learned: to reach your goal, you can take several paths. I'm used to taking the direct straight path. If I felt I was not looked at through the male gaze as a female, you bet it would be different. I have to think, the people I'm working with, they don’t think they are misogynistic."
but really, read the whole thing - she talks about getting a shitty deal, about how she knows they expect her to be more deferential, about how it feels to be only non-white, non-male in a room where decisions are getting made, about having to prove herself to people who should know her work/process, etc. it's a really interesting bookend to the jennifer lawrence piece. as with so many things when you have the misfortune of being born a woman, there doesn't seem to be any right answer, just a bunch of people telling you how you're doing it wrong, whatever it is.
posted by nadawi at 5:03 PM on October 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


But it's always been like this - NitrateDiva on twitter talks about the role of women in early Hollywood.

Actress and Director Debbie Allen discusses her experience with sexism and racism in Hollywood.
posted by ladyriffraff at 12:17 AM on October 15, 2015




Yeah, transparency is the logical thing to do for actors of both genders to equalize the playing field. To the extent where sharing pay data actually has legal protection because employers don't want it shared.
posted by GuyZero at 8:34 PM on October 16, 2015


an incompetence of white guys.

English has a new collective noun! I like it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:45 PM on October 18, 2015 [4 favorites]




Yes, you dumb shit, it is your job.

You know why? We hold all the power. We have every trump card in our hands. And so we have a choice: do we keep the world as it is, where we benefit disproportionately, or do we make a better world for everyone and accept a slight reduction in the ease with which we move through life. (Pls note I am speaking men in general; the world encompassed by the word 'man' has all sorts of intersectionality within it, and much-varying levels of privilege).

We are the only people who can actually make shit change. That is not because we as a gender are uniquely qualified; it is because we have arrogated to ourselves all of the power, and like Sauron we do not share power . That has to fucking change, and it has to change now, and we are the only ones who can do it. We must willingly cede the power and privilege that we have and start truly living our professed belief, that all people are equal.

Women are people too, and if we don't dismantle our own power structures so equitable ones may be built, we are explicitly saying that women aren't people and do not deserve what we deserve.

Renner, if that's what you truly believe, if you truly believe that you are better than women, that you deserve more and they're on their own, then okay you're a regressive nasty dinosaur fucktruck of epic proportions--at least have the honesty to say it outright.

And want to be super super clear that I am not saying that women need to be rescued. I'm saying that when you're in jail, the only person who can let you out is the one with the key. We need to pass the keys through the bars, to torture the analogy.

tldr Renner you're a ridiculous entitled fuck and may legions of fire ants infest your socks.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:59 PM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


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